# Chicago Legacy Club Possible Closure - June 2019 or sooner



## rtabern (Aug 17, 2018)

I got wind that the Legacy Club at Chicago Union Station is likely slated to close by June 2019... if not sooner. Amtrak was planning to use this as a "model" --- and if successful --- would be emulated at other larger stations around the country. Apparently it was NOT a success. My guess is --- sleeping car passengers and business class passengers already have a free lounge (Metropolitan Lounge) no more than 200 feet away... that is pretty much the same.... and is free, so they're not going to pay $20 a head to use another lounge. Coach passengers are generally economic minded and the $20 a head was too steep for them. If I'm scraping up $30 to go to Carbondale or wherever, I probably wouldn't pay $20 for some cookies and soda... I'd use that $20 to upgrade to business class and get a nicer seat and get in the Metropolitan Lounge. Apparently, daily Metra commuters and office workers who work around the station are killing Amtrak's bottom line... buying $50 monthly passes and then coming every day between 12:30p-1:30p for the happy hour and getting 2 free alcoholic drinks every day. Hey, that's upto 40 drinks for $50 in a month. This hasn't been announced anywhere I have seen, but Amtrak is preparing to close the lounge and quietly stopped selling the yearly pass. Rumor has it, that retail will be moving in there --- quite possibly a wine shop is the buzz going around now. Won't happen for several more months though as there are other priorities and construction going on that retail might worry about hurting business. Hope they keep the room and old barber shop the same.


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## the_traveler (Aug 17, 2018)

I agree.

Many sleeper passengers and (in the case in Chicago) Business Class passengers would not want to pay $20 extra for something that can get for free. Maybe (just maybe) it could work in cities like BOS, NYP, PHL or WAS - where BC does not admit you to Club Acela.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 17, 2018)

In my opinion, this is the first of Amtrak's "cost-cutting" moves that makes a lot of sense and won't annoy their passengers. Also better to do it now before Amtrak passengers realize the locals have been chugging down all the free alchohol




.

At one time, I believe you could pay $20 in Philly to use the lounge, even if you weren't traveling. Haven't heard that for a while, so maybe it was a pilot program?

I'm not sure it would work in Philly anyway, because the station itself is so lovely, with inexpensive good food and relaxing places to sit--there's no need to pay $20 to escape it and go to a lounge. Definitely might work in NYP so people could escape the main station. Also to a lesser extent in WAS. Never been to BOS, so don't know about that.


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## tommylicious (Aug 17, 2018)

The Metropolitan Lounge will be closed soon thereafter to cut costs further. Amtrak, it was nice knowin' ya for a lil' while, but fare thee well.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2018)

tommylicious said:


> The Metropolitan Lounge will be closed soon thereafter to cut costs further. Amtrak, it was nice knowin' ya for a lil' while, but fare thee well.


That one needs a smiley, since it is fake news







Mystic River Dragon said:


> At one time, I believe you could pay $20 in Philly to use the lounge, even if you weren't traveling. Haven't heard that for a while, so maybe it was a pilot program?


Wasn't that only for LD train Business Class passengers or something like that? Or were they allowed to use the Club as a special case?


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 17, 2018)

Does the Metropolitan Lounge make a profit or break even compared to expenses? I'm not saying it will definitely be closed but if it doesn't at least break even it's unlikely to last forever. Sooner or later it will reach low hanging fruit status in the view of someone's push to make Amtrak profitable.


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## PVD (Aug 17, 2018)

Do you mean Legacy, or Metro, since almost everyone entering Metro doesn't pay separately, almost all revenue is book entry and of course would be subject to the pencil pushers whims. Legacy is a different case, customers pay directly. it is geared towards a different audience and could go away without a major impact to Amtrak passengers. It is space that could probably be leased out and bring in money. I miss Metro Deli more than I would ever miss the Legacy Lounge.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 17, 2018)

jis, I think you may be right about the Philly $20 pass being for business class travelers, not everyone. I did not pay attention to the details at the time because I had my guest passes, so didn't need to.


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## tricia (Aug 17, 2018)

PVD said:


> I miss Metro Deli more than I would ever miss the Legacy Lounge.


Me too. Especially when catching a delayed evening train--it was excellent for comfort food and good beer when you find you're going to board later than dinner time.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 17, 2018)

PVD said:


> Do you mean Legacy, or Metro, since almost everyone entering Metro doesn't pay separately, almost all revenue is book entry and of course would be subject to the pencil pushers whims.


Even though there's zero evidence that the Metropolitan Lounge is ever going away the logic and talking points already espoused by those in charge would seem to put it's original purpose at risk. The days of acceptable loss leaders appears to be over. If a given amenity or service is not earning a profit or breaking even then it either needs to find a way to increase income or decrease expenditures. Unfortunately this probably means the long distance network itself will remain at risk of potential modification or dissolution in the foreseeable future.



tricia said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > I miss Metro Deli more than I would ever miss the Legacy Lounge.
> ...


I thought it was the moving of the Metropolitan Lounge that supposedly "required" closing the Metro Deli, not the Legacy Club?


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## tricia (Aug 17, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > Do you mean Legacy, or Metro, since almost everyone entering Metro doesn't pay separately, almost all revenue is book entry and of course would be subject to the pencil pushers whims.
> ...


Either moving the Metro Lounge or renovating the great hall--I don't remember which.

In any case, I still miss the Metro Deli.


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## PVD (Aug 17, 2018)

I believe you are correct, in that the Legacy Lounge was not what caused the demise of the Metro Deli... I was just saying that in terms of things going away at CUS, the Metro Deli is something I miss, and the LL has no value for me.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 17, 2018)

tricia said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > I miss Metro Deli more than I would ever miss the Legacy Lounge.
> ...


This!


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## the_traveler (Aug 17, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Does the Metropolitan Lounge make a profit or break even compared to expenses? I'm not saying it will definitely be closed but if it doesn't at least break even it's unlikely to last forever. Sooner or later it will reach low hanging fruit status in the view of someone's push to make Amtrak profitable.


If that were the case, the Club Acela in NYP, BOS and WAS should also be closed. There is NO seperate way (to buy admission) unless you are an Acela First passenger, a sleeping car passenger or have AGR status of Select or above. All those have no monetary expense. Even if you have a coupon from an AGR redemption, there is no cash outlay.
So either way, cash in is $-0-, while expenses out are $xxx!


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## the_traveler (Aug 17, 2018)

I think when BC on the Cardinal began, they were offering a $20 rate for the PHL CA if you were in BC on the Cardinal.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> I think when BC on the Cardinal began, they were offering a $20 rate for the PHL CA if you were in BC on the Cardinal.


That's what I mentioned a few posts back.


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## seat38a (Aug 17, 2018)

Since Anderson is a airline man, he will most likely sell annual membership to the lounge along with some sort of co branded CC that allows entrance. And also probably not include lounge access for domestic travel in sleeper. Only international.


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## cpotisch (Aug 17, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Does the Metropolitan Lounge make a profit or break even compared to expenses? I'm not saying it will definitely be closed but if it doesn't at least break even it's unlikely to last forever. Sooner or later it will reach low hanging fruit status in the view of someone's push to make Amtrak profitable.
> ...


I would note that all business class passengers can get a day pass at any ClubAcela for $20. So while of course the vast majority of people won’t do that, revenue isn’t _quite_ zero.


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## PVD (Aug 17, 2018)

From Amtrak Website:

All Business Class passengers can purchase daily access passes for the ClubAcela locations at Philadelphia - 30th Street Station and Boston - South Station* for $20.00 per day. Speak with a uniformed employee at the station for more information.

No mention of C/A at NYP or WAS......


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## jebr (Aug 17, 2018)

There's only three Metropolitan Lounges in the country: Chicago, Los Angeles, and Portland. With just three of them, there probably isn't a huge cost savings to be found, especially since there is a soft benefit of people having a nicer waiting area that may encourage them to upgrade to business or sleeper when they otherwise wouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some clause in the state-supported contract that requires some sort of lounge access, especially in Chicago and Los Angeles.

The Chicago lounge seems the safest; with the amount of transfer traffic, mixed with originating sleeper and business class traffic, having some premium area to wait during a transfer likely sells quite a few sleeper/business class tickets. It also likely helps to stem some of the crowding in coach waiting areas (sleeper passengers still need to wait somewhere) and may wind up needing similar labor requirements (would the agent or two simply need to be at the ticket counter to answer question/hold bags anyways?) I've never been to the Los Angeles one, so I'm not sure how well it's used, but it may also be contractually required.

Portland seems like the odd one out. There's some transfer traffic (Coast Starlight to Empire Builder) but it's not a major transfer point, and I'm not sure how many people use it on a regular basis. If one gets cut, I'd imagine it'd be that one that goes to an unstaffed lounge like MSP or NOL.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2018)

Besides it is quite possible that Amtrak milks Illinois DOT and California DOT for all it is worth to provide access to the BC passengers of State Supported Trains. Actually we have no way of knowing how the accounting for anything related to the Lounges work.

BTW, there are plenty of Sleeper (and BC) Lounges that are not called Metropolitan Lounges in the country. St. Louis, Raleigh (assuming the new stations continues to have one), Miami and New Orleans come to mind immediately.


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## cpotisch (Aug 17, 2018)

jis said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > The Metropolitan Lounge will be closed soon thereafter to cut costs further. Amtrak, it was nice knowin' ya for a lil' while, but fare thee well.
> ...


Business class passengers on all trains (including business on Acela) can (still) pay $20 for all-day access to any of the ClubAcelas.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > tommylicious said:
> ...


Are you sure it includes New York? Can you provide a pointer to the documentation of the access to New York CA?


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## cpotisch (Aug 17, 2018)

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Whoops. Looks like that’s not an option at WAS and NYP (only PHL and BOS). I was mainly thinking about Philadelphia when I said it, but my bad.


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## PVD (Aug 17, 2018)

I posted a web section that excludes NY and Washington a little while ago....


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## cpotisch (Aug 17, 2018)

PVD said:


> I posted a web section that excludes NY and Washington a little while ago....


Well this is where I'm getting my info.


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## keelhauled (Aug 17, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > I posted a web section that excludes NY and Washington a little while ago....
> ...


That's exactly the same page where PVD's quote came from.


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## PVD (Aug 17, 2018)

I know I occasionally get stuff wrong, especially when I'm in a hurry for some reason, so I went back to the section, and I still see NY and Washington left out....


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## cpotisch (Aug 17, 2018)

That's what I was saying. Buying a day pass is not an option at NYP and WAS, and it is an option at BOS and PHL.


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## PVD (Aug 17, 2018)

Take a look at your posting. It may have been your sentiment, but I don't see how anyone reading that would see it.

Off to watch Jeopardy! I'm off for now...


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## cpotisch (Aug 17, 2018)

PVD said:


> Take a look at your posting. It may have been your sentiment, but I don't see how anyone reading that would see it.
> 
> Off to watch Jeopardy! I'm off for now...


I don't see what was misleading here.



cpotisch said:


> Whoops. *Looks like that’s not an option at WAS and NYP* (only PHL and BOS). I was mainly thinking about Philadelphia when I said it, but my bad.


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## PVD (Aug 17, 2018)

The correction is very clear... I think everyone was responding to the lines before that......


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 17, 2018)

Getting back to the Legacy Club, I think Amtrak thought that Metra riders would buy memberships in order to relax in style before catching their rides home, but commuters time their day to arrive just in time to get on the train and get out of town. Like someone said previously, most Amtrak coach riders probably aren't going to pony up $20 for the club privileges and sleeping car passengers already have their own nice waiting area so there really isn't much of a market for the Legacy Club. A nice restaurant would be a better use of the space.


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## PVD (Aug 17, 2018)

Which is probably exactly the scenario unfolding. Commuter passengers are a different animal from LD passengers, It's one of the things railfans often have trouble coming to grips with. The beautiful stations of the past, no matter how glorious they were, just may not be the most appropriate way to move thousands of people to and from work.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 17, 2018)

PVD said:


> Commuter passengers are a different animal from LD passengers, It's one of the things railfans often have trouble coming to grips with.


That's true but it also works both ways. Some of the more ignorant comments I've read came from corridor regulars who seemed to struggle with fully understanding how long distance travel differed from their typical commute or regional getaway. If there is one thing I've learned from this forum it's that Amtrak is really two different companies in one.


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## PVD (Aug 18, 2018)

Sure, but I don't think that alters the validity of my statement.


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## dogbert617 (Aug 18, 2018)

rtabern said:


> I got wind that the Legacy Club at Chicago Union Station is likely slated to close by June 2019... if not sooner. Amtrak was planning to use this as a "model" --- and if successful --- would be emulated at other larger stations around the country. Apparently it was NOT a success. My guess is --- sleeping car passengers and business class passengers already have a free lounge (Metropolitan Lounge) no more than 200 feet away... that is pretty much the same.... and is free, so they're not going to pay $20 a head to use another lounge. Coach passengers are generally economic minded and the $20 a head was too steep for them. If I'm scraping up $30 to go to Carbondale or wherever, I probably wouldn't pay $20 for some cookies and soda... I'd use that $20 to upgrade to business class and get a nicer seat and get in the Metropolitan Lounge. Apparently, daily Metra commuters and office workers who work around the station are killing Amtrak's bottom line... buying $50 monthly passes and then coming every day between 12:30p-1:30p for the happy hour and getting 2 free alcoholic drinks every day. Hey, that's upto 40 drinks for $50 in a month. This hasn't been announced anywhere I have seen, but Amtrak is preparing to close the lounge and quietly stopped selling the yearly pass. Rumor has it, that retail will be moving in there --- quite possibly a wine shop is the buzz going around now. Won't happen for several more months though as there are other priorities and construction going on that retail might worry about hurting business. Hope they keep the room and old barber shop the same.


Haha, that's funny and interesting to read about if that is really going on! If it's mainly Metra commuters who bought a monthly pass to use Chicago Legacy Club and never a lot of Amtrak passengers, I can see why they look like they will be cutting this soon. Hard to believe this is a case of an Amtrak cut, where I'd be alright if it were cut. I hope the Metropolitan Lounges are all maintained. I'd like to see the ridership levels for those who opt to use the Portland, OR lounge, before I'd agree with them downgrading that to being unstaffed.


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## Paul CHI (Aug 18, 2018)

By gradually eliminating all of the "amenities" that gave the impression of "first class travel" on the LD trains, Amtrak is alienating their upper tier of customers. Deteriorating arrival times further accelerate this trend. So the Legacy Club was aimed at a group of passengers that Amtrak is actively encouraging to find other modes of travel.

Not a surprising result.


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## Maverickstation (Aug 18, 2018)

dogbert617 said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > I got wind that the Legacy Club at Chicago Union Station is likely slated to close by June 2019... if not sooner. Amtrak was planning to use this as a "model" --- and if successful --- would be emulated at other larger stations around the country. Apparently it was NOT a success. My guess is --- sleeping car passengers and business class passengers already have a free lounge (Metropolitan Lounge) no more than 200 feet away... that is pretty much the same.... and is free, so they're not going to pay $20 a head to use another lounge. Coach passengers are generally economic minded and the $20 a head was too steep for them. If I'm scraping up $30 to go to Carbondale or wherever, I probably wouldn't pay $20 for some cookies and soda... I'd use that $20 to upgrade to business class and get a nicer seat and get in the Metropolitan Lounge. Apparently, daily Metra commuters and office workers who work around the station are killing Amtrak's bottom line... buying $50 monthly passes and then coming every day between 12:30p-1:30p for the happy hour and getting 2 free alcoholic drinks every day. Hey, that's upto 40 drinks for $50 in a month. This hasn't been announced anywhere I have seen, but Amtrak is preparing to close the lounge and quietly stopped selling the yearly pass. Rumor has it, that retail will be moving in there --- quite possibly a wine shop is the buzz going around now. Won't happen for several more months though as there are other priorities and construction going on that retail might worry about hurting business. Hope they keep the room and old barber shop the same.
> ...


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 18, 2018)

They are probably looking at maximizing their potential for real estate. If they can get money for the space, why use it as a duplicate amenity?


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## the_traveler (Aug 18, 2018)

Paul CHI said:


> By gradually eliminating all of the "amenities" that gave the impression of "first class travel" on the LD trains, Amtrak is alienating their upper tier of customers. Deteriorating arrival times further accelerate this trend. So the Legacy Club was aimed at a group of passengers that Amtrak is actively encouraging to find other modes of travel.
> 
> Not a surprising result.


I do not see how this (possible) closing is an elimination of amenities. A sleeper passenger or a business class passenger on Amtrak has 2 options for a Lounge in Chicago. 
#1) They can chose to go to the Legacy Lounge during their layover or wait and pay ANOTHER $20, or

#2) They can chose to go to the Metropolitan Lounge during their layover or wait and pay NO EXTRA.


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## DevalDragon (Aug 18, 2018)

FWIW, I have used the Legacy Club as a Metra passenger. Those 2 hour headways on Sunday can be brutal.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 18, 2018)

PVD said:


> Which is probably exactly the scenario unfolding. Commuter passengers are a different animal from LD passengers, It's one of the things railfans often have trouble coming to grips with. The beautiful stations of the past, no matter how glorious they were, just may not be the most appropriate way to move thousands of people to and from work.


I'm a daily commuter who finds the glorious stations of the past (through which I travel every day) to be quite appropriate for my commute.

Since the latest trackwork started, and i now need to take a MARC train that gets me into WAS a half hour before I need to be there, I've become a regular at the Club Acela, where I read the paper and have a cup of coffee before I go out and brave the Metro. By the way, most of the patronage at the Club Acela are Corridor riders (regional and Acela), not long distance riders.


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## jis (Aug 18, 2018)

Specially at that time of the day?


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## dogbert617 (Aug 18, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> They are probably looking at maximizing their potential for real estate. If they can get money for the space, why use it as a duplicate amenity?


Exactly! Maybe Amtrak has encouraged a rumored tenant to lease out this space, and they'd make more money leading it to the tenant vs. operating the Legacy Club? Though who knows the real story here....


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## tommylicious (Aug 18, 2018)

Commercial rents have skyrocketed in Chicago. Amtrak will realize the opportunity cost of running the Metro lounge, shut it down, and book the rent from a new tenant. There will be a Potbelly or similar in that space.


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## cpotisch (Aug 18, 2018)

MARC Rider said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > Which is probably exactly the scenario unfolding. Commuter passengers are a different animal from LD passengers, It's one of the things railfans often have trouble coming to grips with. The beautiful stations of the past, no matter how glorious they were, just may not be the most appropriate way to move thousands of people to and from work.
> ...


How do you get in there without a qualifying ticket? You Select Executive or something?


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## PVD (Aug 18, 2018)

I am not coming down in favor of utilitarianism in design, but there is a nostalgic note in many people that tends to ignore the fact that these stations need to move thousands of people i short periods of time. Their primary purpose is not what it used to be. Grand Central is one of the most beautiful public spaces, but it isn't a place where people sit and wait for trains anymore. The retail space is more geared towards a commuter and local worker crowd.


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## the_traveler (Aug 18, 2018)

tommylicious said:


> Commercial rents have skyrocketed in Chicago. Amtrak will realize the opportunity cost of running the Metro lounge, shut it down, and book the rent from a new tenant. There will be a Potbelly or similar in that space.


Nobody ever said the Metropolitan Lounge would close, and I personally think it will not. Amtrak even found out the old Lounge was too small and they needed more room.


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## caravanman (Aug 18, 2018)

By closing all the checked baggage options, Amtrak would "save" money on paper, but it would be bonkers, as it would cut the numbers of passengers considering using their trains.

Same with closing Metropolitan lounges... It may bring in revenue from rents, but that won't increase sleeper passenger's bookings, most of whom are mature, and value the amenity. Amtrak are not in the business of being landlords, they are in, or a least should give a passing nod, to the business of attracting and retaining train passengers!

I love the grand old station designs, and would much rather pass slowly, with less convenience, through a 1930's artistic building than whizz through a modern design. When did anyone notice the beauty of an airport?

Earth without art is Eh, as the saying goes...






Ed


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 18, 2018)

PVD said:


> I am not coming down in favor of utilitarianism in design, but there is a nostalgic note in many people that tends to ignore the fact that these stations need to move thousands of people i short periods of time. Their primary purpose is not what it used to be. Grand Central is one of the most beautiful public spaces, but it isn't a place where people sit and wait for trains anymore. The retail space is more geared towards a commuter and local worker crowd.


I'm not sure I follow... Who is ignoring that fact? Who is suggesting that the stations be set up poorly?


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## the_traveler (Aug 18, 2018)

What you say is very true.

A case in point is to compare the original NY Penn Station with the current NYP. Both were/are train stations designed to carry people, but the current one has many more shops. I am very sure many people will say that Penn Station was much better in the 1940’s and 1950’s than it is today.


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## PVD (Aug 18, 2018)

I guess what I'm trying to say (and probably not very clearly) is that very often people talk about one of the great old stations and how they used to be, and that's what we should still have. \What I'm trying to say is that as nice as they were, they were designed for something that to a great extent does not exist. Major stations handle very large numbers of commuters and corridor passengers, traffic patterns, and types of shops have evolved to fill that need. Even in Amtrak owned major stations, the LD numbers are dwarfed by corridor and commuter numbers and when it comes to traffic patterns and services the tail doesn't get to wag the dog. That's not an excuse to have a poor facility, but while we are all train passengers, a great mumber don't linger, they are in and out, and that is going to reflected in facility renovation.

People have commented negatively about Denver (too commuter oriented), they always pine for the old Penn Station, a beautiful building, but one whose interior would need to be radically different than it was in order to handle the type of use it gets today


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## cpotisch (Aug 18, 2018)

caravanman said:


> By closing all the checked baggage options, Amtrak would "save" money on paper, but it would be bonkers, as it would cut the numbers of passengers considering using their trains.
> 
> Same with closing Metropolitan lounges... It may bring in revenue from rents, but that won't increase sleeper passenger's bookings, most of whom are mature, and value the amenity. Amtrak are not in the business of being landlords, they are in, or a least should give a passing nod, to the business of attracting and retaining train passengers!
> 
> ...


Agreed. The frustrating thing is that when they cut checked baggage at all these stations, even if ridership drops, management can just say that the low ridership is from lack of demand, and can use that to justify further cuts to services and the LD network (including routes themselves). It's very easy to say how much they're "saving" by cutting a service, but very difficult to prove that any subsequent drop in ridership and revenue is because of that change.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 18, 2018)

caravanman said:


> I love the grand old station designs, and would much rather pass slowly, with less convenience, through a 1930's artistic building than whizz through a modern design. When did anyone notice the beauty of an airport?


Over the years I've passed through some of the most popular and highest rated airports in the world. Some of them I found impressively efficient, surprisingly versatile, and genuinely interesting. But I would struggle to call any of them attractive. Let alone beautiful.


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## cpotisch (Aug 18, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > I am not coming down in favor of utilitarianism in design, but there is a nostalgic note in many people that tends to ignore the fact that these stations need to move thousands of people i short periods of time. Their primary purpose is not what it used to be. Grand Central is one of the most beautiful public spaces, but it isn't a place where people sit and wait for trains anymore. The retail space is more geared towards a commuter and local worker crowd.
> ...


He's saying that nowadays, major train stations are really for getting tons of people through and onto/off of their trains as quickly and efficiently as possible. While special lounges and facilities make the experience of getting ready for your train more pleasant, it just doesn't really fit in with the purpose of a modern transit hub


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 19, 2018)

But aren't the legacy terminals the ones that the modern designs are based off of? And aren't a lot of the techniques that we call modern today devised from said terminals. Grand Central in New York for instance was designed really as two stations as one. The upper level was the intercity level and hosted the long distance hot shots of the New York Central.

While the lower level was designed as a commuter terminal. The other thing to remember they designed the station with no stairs just Ramps because Ramps are faster at dispersing people and helping them move.

Chicago Union Station used to be a much larger terminal in terms of traffic and had its own lofty concourse building that met its end in the 60s.

Buffalo Central Terminal was also the epitome of modern functional design in its day. A very functional terminal. The point is the modern design people love today was based off of the legacy stations. And they are still influencing them.

The more modern stuff is the use of hard surfaces to communicate this is a walking zone and carpets to invite people to slow down and sit. I prefer the vintage buildings that the textbooks are based off of.


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## CAMISSY55 (Aug 19, 2018)

Well, I will be sad to see the Legacy Lounge close. Since my first visit shortly after it opened (before the new Metropolitan Lounge opened), it has been my refuge for the layovers between the CONO (my train/route of origin or termination) and the CZ, SWC, TE, and EB.

The Legacy is much more relaxing and user friendly for me. It is obviously a much smaller space than the ML, but the beautiful, refurbished high ceilings along with open layout and decor, make it feel more spacious.

The Amtrak staff who run the lounge (not just the check in desk) have always been exceptionally helpful and courteous. During my first visit to the LL, I got word of an emergency that required me to change my destination and travel back across the country. The lounge attendant, Annette, saw my distress and calming assisted me in changing my reservation to get me where I needed to go, as quickly as possible. No need to go to the ticket counter, which had not yet moved to its new and much closer location. She was able to ticket it right there in the Legacy Lounge.

I could go on and on about what I find appealing about the LL. And yes, I have relayed these positive sentiments on several occasions to Amtrak Customer Relations. But, apparently I'm part of a small minority. Oh well...It was wonderful while it lasted!

Hopefully, it will still be open for my upcoming LD travel in October and December.


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## jis (Aug 19, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> But aren't the legacy terminals the ones that the modern designs are based off of? And aren't a lot of the techniques that we call modern today devised from said terminals. Grand Central in New York for instance was designed really as two stations as one. The upper level was the intercity level and hosted the long distance hot shots of the New York Central.
> 
> While the lower level was designed as a commuter terminal. The other thing to remember they designed the station with no stairs just Ramps because Ramps are faster at dispersing people and helping them move.
> 
> ...


While at some level of approximation the statement about new stations being based on elements used in legacy stations is bound to be true, I think there are some new stations that go far beyond anything found in a legacy station.

One station that stands out in my mind is Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Yes every individual element in its design can possibly be found in some legacy station. But the way the package is currently put together is uniquely functional and even possibly attractive to the eyes of those that like that particular architectural style (me being one of them).

London St. Pancras of today is significantly more spectacular IMHO than the form in which it was originally built. Similarly, the transformation that has taken place at Antwerp Central makes it a significantly superior station today than the form in which it was originally built.

It is another matter than not too many significant station rehabilitation or new stations have been built in the US. There are a few exceptions like Denver Union Station, but even in such cases it is a much downsized facility serving a somewhat different overall purpose. Boston South Station also has done a pretty good job of rearranging things within the framework of a small part of the original structure to achieve a very functional downsized station, as has Washington Union Station.


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## PVD (Aug 19, 2018)

Absolutely. It is unreasonable to think that stations done today are going to have what in essence would be large amounts of wasted space catering to a type of passenger whose numbers are much smaller than the other groups that the stations serve. Like it or not, LD train passengers are a much smaller contingent than corridor or commuter users of most larger stations.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 19, 2018)

Are you saying the club Acelas and M Lounge is wasted space?


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## PVD (Aug 19, 2018)

Certainly not. Not building a station that is designed around long distance travel is very different than not providing properly for those passengers.


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## tommylicious (Aug 19, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > Commercial rents have skyrocketed in Chicago. Amtrak will realize the opportunity cost of running the Metro lounge, shut it down, and book the rent from a new tenant. There will be a Potbelly or similar in that space.
> ...


The Metropolitan Lounges WILL close. They were created under vastly different management. Current management sees lounges as nothing but a cost center and waste of real estate which could otherwise be fetching handsome rent. Remember, this is the same management that is already dismantling systemwide diner service. You'll never eat a decent meal on Amtrak again under their watch.


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## cpotisch (Aug 20, 2018)

tommylicious said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > tommylicious said:
> ...


There has been no move to eliminate the First Class lounges. The LEGACY Lounge MIGHT be closing. And it's one of two station lounges in Chicago, anyway. There is some somewhat unnecessary redundancy there. So how does this possibly equate to "current management sees lounges as nothing but a cost center and waste of real estate"? You should probably speak with a little less confidence (something I probably should do as well).


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## Manny T (Aug 20, 2018)

Not long ago, the Great Hall was an un-airconditioned space full of derelicts, and the waiting area for Amtrak passengers was split between an underground bunker for sleeper PAX (Metropolitan Lounge) and cramped cattle pens for coach passengers.

Now Amtrak has air-conditioned the Great Hall, is restoring its architectural features, placed its kiosk in the center, provided ample seating, created a new 3-story Metropolitan Lounge for sleeper PAX, and is combining the old Metropolitan Lounge + cattle pens into a new waiting area for the all-coach Hiawatha services.

Under the circumstances, closing the Legacy Lounge and converting it into a paying commercial tenant -- a restaurant -- to contribute to Amtrak's bottom line seems perfectly fine.

Btw station restaurants are also "waiting areas." Always have been. If you doubt that, watch "Brief Encounter (1936), directed by David Lean, written by Noel Coward, and starring Celia Johnson and Trevor Howard.


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## PVD (Aug 20, 2018)

Work on restoring the skylight is a big part of that also. Giving the waiting passengers much better space, and moving them out of the way of the throngs is very worthwhile. Part of the proposals for the long term involve creating additional access for commuter passengers which hopefully wll further clean up traffic flow.


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## rtabern (Aug 20, 2018)

The "sooner" part is looking more and more likely. Apparently there is a big secret meeting above CUS today in the Amtrak offices to determine an official closure date and when the announcement will be made public. If it's any indication they stopped selling monthly passes now too. Can you say on other around September 30 even? Just sad. Will be going down there soon to get photos.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 20, 2018)

It seems that Amtrak and others are working on restoring the feel of the olden days, but in a modern way. Denver is a great example, Chicago, eventually NYC if the Post Office project ever happens.

I feel like the Legacy Club had a very unique and small audience to begin with. I wonder if it was at one point part of a bigger plan? Like a "Legacy Service" on trains like the Builder / Zephyr? Try out the whole Prestige Class experiment.


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## Rail Freak (Aug 20, 2018)

How long was it open?


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 20, 2018)

Rail Freak said:


> How long was it open?


Looks like May 2015.

Link: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64154-legacy-club-new-bc-lounge-in-chi/


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## tommylicious (Aug 20, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


Easily deduced from current management's priorities in action. I have a business background and have seen it before.


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## PVD (Aug 20, 2018)

I like Denver a lot, but the was a Denver project, not Amtrak. And people have complained that it is too commuter oriented. Newsflash, no one was going to spend that kind of money for one train a day in each direction. It was a sad place before all the RTD and destination traffic.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 20, 2018)

PVD said:


> I like Denver a lot, but the was a Denver project, not Amtrak. And people have complained that it is too commuter oriented. Newsflash, no one was going to spend that kind of money for one train a day in each direction. It was a sad place before all the RTD and destination traffic.


I'm still not sure what makes a station "commuter oriented" vs. "long distance" oriented. Both want the same basics like clean, modern restrooms, a comfortable place to wait for the train, wifi, place to charge their phones / laptops, a place to get coffee, a place to get a drink, a place to buy food. The Denver Station checks all these boxes and retains the historic vibe of the place.

While not amtrak, nor even a train station, The Ferry Building in San Francisco is another example. They even managed to keep their solari board! RIP Amtrak Solari's


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 20, 2018)

In contrast.. The Amtrak Seattle station kept the historic vibe.. but that's about it. The waiting area is too small for the traffic, and the way they have people line up airline style to get on the train means that people snake around the benches in a long line making the whole room quite congested. There are no food services in the station other than vending machines, and no easy to access outlets that I can remember.


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## PVD (Aug 20, 2018)

In a station handling a higher percentage of commuter/corridor rather than passengers traveling long distance, you would have less seated waiting areas, and your retail and food services would be geared towards people coming in and out, not lingering. Ticketing tends to be more automated, and flow to from entrances from platforms can be more direct. I think the other items belong regardless.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 20, 2018)

But a station like Chicago Union, NY Penn, Seattle, LA, etc. would need a mix of both correct? Which is what they have (well... not Seattle but the others).


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## PVD (Aug 20, 2018)

Absolutely. What I've been trying to say is that because the numbers of commuter/corridor folks are so high, and they need to be moved in and out expeditiously, stations need to reflect that mix, and a station that is using its space more for the benefit of much smaller numbers of LD passengers at the expense of the primary users would be a failure. That in no way means that stations should not try to do their best for everyone.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 20, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> > PVD said:
> ...


Not quite that posh. I'm Select Plus from riding NERs home a couple of times a week when I work late. It was a lot easier when you got 100 tqp no matter how cheap the ticket. Plus a few junkets to New York or Philly per year, and my Acela ski trip to Boston. And maybe one or two long distance trips per year. It doesn't yake that much to go over the top.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 20, 2018)

When started riding trains in the 1960s I don't remember there being special lounges for sleeper or first class passengers. And my home station was Philly 30th St, which had a lot of long distance and parlor car business. Did any of the pre Amtrak RRs offer first class lounges. I was always under the impression that Amtrak set the up, along with Guest Rewards, to emulate airline practices.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 20, 2018)

MARC Rider said:


> When started riding trains in the 1960s I don't remember there being special lounges for sleeper or first class passengers. And my home station was Philly 30th St, which had a lot of long distance and parlor car business. Did any of the pre Amtrak RRs offer first class lounges. I was always under the impression that Amtrak set the up, along with Guest Rewards, to emulate airline practices.


I believe you are correct. As far as I remember, there were no first class lounges or Guest Rewards programs in pre-Amtrak days. Heck, there were only a couple of trains that offered showers -- The Broadway Limited and the Crescent -- and that was only for occupants of "master rooms."

Dining car meals were also extra. They weren't included with the price of a sleeping car ticket.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 20, 2018)

Yep, I don't ever recall seeing a Lounge in Stations before Amtrak,but I do remember when the Red Carpet was rolled out @ GCT when Sleeper passengers boarded the 20th Century Ltd.

Also, there were "Ladies Lounges" in the Major Stations, but as I never was in one, am not sure what was inside?

I seem to recall that Canada had Special Lounges for "First Class" Passengers in Montreal and Toronto.Not sure about other Countries?


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## railiner (Aug 20, 2018)

Most commuter's that I know, make a dash to catch their train (or perhaps an earlier one) everyday, and only find themselves "lingering", when there is a service disruption of some sort...

But maybe that's just a "New York thing"....


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## OlympianHiawatha (Aug 20, 2018)

Chicago too. The sign of a good rail commuter is his or her ability to arrive the platform just moments before the doors close and know exactly what car and seating area to head to.


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## cpotisch (Aug 21, 2018)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Chicago too. The sign of a good rail commuter is his or her ability to arrive the platform just moments before the doors close and know exactly what car and seating area to head to.


Having ridden the subway for 16 years, which believe it or not, does have schedules, I've gotten pretty good at that. Unfortunately, doing so saves you two or three minutes in the absolute best case scenario.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 21, 2018)

But all of the large commuter stations do have food and drink services for these commuters. Someone is keeping all of those mediocore pizza and Europa delis open! (Referring to NYP with that one).


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## Ryan (Aug 21, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > Chicago too. The sign of a good rail commuter is his or her ability to arrive the platform just moments before the doors close and know exactly what car and seating area to head to.
> ...


Commuter rail headways are very different than Subway headways.

Also, I don’t think that the time you spent being pushed in a stroller counts as relevant subway riding experience.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 21, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > Chicago too. The sign of a good rail commuter is his or her ability to arrive the platform just moments before the doors close and know exactly what car and seating area to head to.
> ...


As Ryan pointed out, Subways,are a different Kettle of Fish than Commuter Rail although they have some things in common.( Locals vs Express,Rush Hour vs Non Rush Hour,Directional Scheduling etc)
I try to avoid the Thundering Herds in LAX,CHI,NYP and currently GCT, when riding Amtrak during Rush Hours since the Stations become a ZOO as Commuters head Home/To Work.


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## cpotisch (Aug 21, 2018)

Ryan said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > OlympianHiawatha said:
> ...


Fine. 10 years.


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## Ryan (Aug 21, 2018)

That addresses the easy half of the critisism.

How much of your life have you spent commuting via commuter rail?

Having done so for about 5 years, I can tell you it's pretty important to arrive 3 minutes early vice 3 minutes late for a train home when the next one doesn't leave for a half hour.


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## cpotisch (Aug 21, 2018)

Ryan said:


> That addresses the easy half of the critisism.
> 
> How much of your life have you spent commuting via commuter rail?
> 
> Having done so for about 5 years, I can tell you it's pretty important to arrive 3 minutes early vice 3 minutes late for a train home when the next one doesn't leave for a half hour.


He said "most commuters that I know". I didn't know he was specifically talking about commuter rail. People commute to work on the subway, so I assumed that people commuting on the subway fit here. Apologies for missing the context.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 21, 2018)

As someone who is routinely early (and who thus unintentionally annoys her routinely late friends



), I see it from the early bird side--it makes sense to me as a commuter to take the train before the train I really want to catch. My commuter rail (NJ Transit) being what it is, it is almost definite that they will try to make you miss a connection somewhere along the way, and the only way to fight it is to take the earlier train (which will then be late, but early enough for you to connect to the one you really planned to



).

What I really don't understand are the Princeton Junction commuters going to New York. Many of these people must have good jobs with large salaries, but they don't have common sense enough to add five extra minutes into their morning so they won't have to rush? Or don't have the patience to wait for the next train, which is just a few minutes behind the one they are running to get?



Maybe it's a Type A versus Type B thing--it sure is nice and quiet around here after they've gotten their trains and we Type B people have the whole place to ourselves!


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## railiner (Aug 21, 2018)

Railroads, subway's, buses, sidewalks...in New York, during the commute period...its very apparent how the term "rush hour" got coined....


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## ainamkartma (Aug 21, 2018)

PVD said:


> I am not coming down in favor of utilitarianism in design, but there is a nostalgic note in many people that tends to ignore the fact that these stations need to move thousands of people i short periods of time. Their primary purpose is not what it used to be. Grand Central is one of the most beautiful public spaces, but it isn't a place where people sit and wait for trains anymore. The retail space is more geared towards a commuter and local worker crowd.


But Grand Central was never designed as a place to sit and wait for trains, or at least it wasn't famous for that aspect of its design. It was praised largely for the innovations in its design that allowed it to efficiently serve thousands of commuters during the rush hours.

Ainamkartma


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## PVD (Aug 21, 2018)

Grand Central used to serve many more longer distance passengers. It was how you went towards Albany or New England...


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## cpotisch (Aug 21, 2018)

ainamkartma said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > I am not coming down in favor of utilitarianism in design, but there is a nostalgic note in many people that tends to ignore the fact that these stations need to move thousands of people i short periods of time. Their primary purpose is not what it used to be. Grand Central is one of the most beautiful public spaces, but it isn't a place where people sit and wait for trains anymore. The retail space is more geared towards a commuter and local worker crowd.
> ...


It used to have dozens of benches and waiting areas in the main concourses. And as PVD said, it was also a major LD train hub.


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## the_traveler (Aug 21, 2018)

But Grand Central was the prestigious station of NY Central, for their trains including the 20th Century Limited!


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## ainamkartma (Aug 21, 2018)

PVD said:


> Grand Central used to serve many more longer distance passengers. It was how you went towards Albany or New England...


Of course, but from day one of its existence its traffic was dominated by commuter passengers. According to "Grand Central Terminal" (Schlichting, 2001), "Commuter traffic... came to exceed [long distance] passengers by a considerable margin" between 1900 and 1913, when GCT opened, and commuter traffic "grew exponentially" after the opening of the new terminal.

GCT was designed as a combined long distance and commuter terminal from its first inception. The commuter business greatly surpassed the expected levels.

Ainamkartma


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 21, 2018)

I actually just made a list of 1952 departures out of Grand Central.

Here are the All Pullman trains

20th Century Limited (Chicago)

Commodore Vanderbilt (Chicago)

Detroiter (Detroit)

Cleveland Special (Cleveland)

Montreal Limited (Montreal)

Other long distance trains

Southwestern Limited (St Louis)

Knickerbocker (St Louis)

Ohio State Limited (Cincinnati)

Wolverine (Chicago via Detroit)

Empire State Express (Cleveland/Detroit)

Advance Empire State Express (Buffalo)

Easterner(Chicago)

Pacemaker (Chicago)

And so many other trains from across the Midwest.

Once I get my map completed would anyone be interested in the 1952 Official Guide imputed on a Google satellite map with routes, stations, and departure time?


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## railiner (Aug 21, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> I actually just made a list of 1952 departures out of Grand Central.
> 
> Here are the All Pullman trains
> 
> ...


You really should add the New Haven long-haul's to that list...destinations as far as the Maritime's....


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 21, 2018)

railiner said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > I actually just made a list of 1952 departures out of Grand Central.
> ...


I'm sill weeding myself past the New York Central's network. And that is a huge task. Let me fetch a link to the work in progress map.


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## cpotisch (Aug 22, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> I actually just made a list of 1952 departures out of Grand Central.
> 
> Here are the All Pullman trains
> 
> ...


Wow, those really were the days. You had a choice of five trains to Chicago alone, all out of Grand Central. RIP Golden Age of Rail.

As to the 1952 map...YES PLEASE!


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## MARC Rider (Aug 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > I actually just made a list of 1952 departures out of Grand Central.
> ...


And they managed to have that service without having a lounge for sleeper/first class passengers.


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## railiner (Aug 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > I actually just made a list of 1952 departures out of Grand Central.
> ...


And remember....that was only on one road...

The PRR, The B&O, The Erie, as well as other choices with connections like Lackawanna-Nickle Plate, Lehigh Valley-Wabash, or CN-GTW, as well as C&O and N&W; could all be used to get from New York to Chicago back then....


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## jis (Aug 22, 2018)

Which stands to reason since back then there was no I-87/90, I-80, and maybe some four dozen (or more if one change is thrown in) flights a day between New York and Chicago.


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## cpotisch (Aug 22, 2018)

railiner said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Seaboard92 said:
> ...


Did those run out of Grand Central?


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## ehbowen (Aug 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Did those run out of Grand Central?



Pennsylvania and Lehigh Valley operated out of New York Penn Station (same location as today's NYP, but the original grand building). Erie operated out of an ancient terminal in Jersey City, while B&O operated out of Central of New Jersey's separate terminal (also in Jersey City). Lackawanna had a slightly more modern terminal in Hoboken (still in service as a commuter station, IIRC); Erie relocated to share this terminal in the late 1950s as a precursor to the eventual merger of the two roads.

Edit To Add: The railroads with terminals on the Jersey side of the Hudson all operated ferryboats to transfer passengers to/from Manhattan proper. The Lackawanna terminal also had/has good connections to the New York subway system.


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## jis (Aug 22, 2018)

Central of Jersey's Jersey City Station (used by B&O) is now a tourist attraction.

Lackawanna's Hoboken Terminal became Erie-Lackawanna's Hoboken Terminal and then New Jersey Transit's Hoboken Terminal. The Lackawanna service (Phoebe Snow) went up what is today the NJT Morristown Line then over the Lackawanna Cutoff in NJ and PA, crossing the Paulins Kill Viaduct in NJ the Delaware Viaduct across the Delaware River and the Tunkhannock Viaduct in Nicholson PA, all landmark concrete arch bridges when they were built a hundred plus years ago. The Erie service went up what is today the NJT Main Line to Suffern and then through the MNRR Port Jervis line and then up the Delaware River through Deposit etc. crossing both the Moodna and the Starucca Viaducts on the way. Very scenic and excruciatingly slow route.

Before moving to Hoboken Terminal Erie operated out of its Pavonia Terminal. The only sign remaining of it is on the support poles with the "E" embossed icon in the PATH (then Hudson and Manhattan Railroad) Pavonia, now Newport, Station.

The Lehigh Valley service out of Penn Station New York used the Hunter Connection just west of Newark Penn Station that is used today by the NJ Transit Raritan Valley Line trains, which then use the newer Aldene Connection to transfer over to the ex-CNJ Line to Raritan. The ex-Lehigh Valley and ex-CNJ Line meet up at Bound Brook before separating again. The CNJ line is pretty much gone east of Aldene Connection, though the ROW is mostly intact through Elizabeth. You can see the old CNJ Elizabeth station from the NEC as you pass through the NEC Elizabeth (Broad Street) station onto the famous Elizabeth S-Curve.

Maybe we should start a thread on historical New York - Chicago service and their historical routes.


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## neroden (Dec 20, 2018)

MARC Rider said:


> And they managed to have that service without having a lounge for sleeper/first class passengers.


You don't need a lounge for waiting passengers when there's a departure every hour.

People show up further in advance when there are fewer trains per day, thus necessitating more lounge space.


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## Anderson (Dec 20, 2018)

And I'm just seeing this now.  Sigh.

The Legacy Club would likely have "worked" if it hadn't come alongside the new Metropolitan Lounge.  I know that on at least 2-3 occasions I paid the $20 and used it regardless of access rights to the Metropolitan Lounge because of crowding issues.  The biggest example of this was when 29 and 49 came in hooked together...I just went straight upstairs to the Legacy Club and, when asked why, pointed out that something like 150 sleeper pax had all showed up at the same time and that I wasn't up for waiting an hour downstairs.  But I did it one or two other times as well, and I found the staff to be markedly more polite and the facility nicer than the "old" Met Lounge.

I suspect that the "pay lounge" model would work in a few places depending on the traffic load, etc.  Pairing it with a brand new, massively expanded lounge with improved internal F&B options probably wasn't a winning combination, however.


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## PaulM (Dec 20, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I'm still not sure what makes a station "commuter oriented" vs. "long distance" oriented. Both want the same basics like clean, modern restrooms, a comfortable place to wait for the train, wifi, place to charge their phones / laptops, a place to get coffee, a place to get a drink, a place to buy food. The Denver Station checks all these boxes and retains the historic vibe of the place.


I'd add a another box.  If you are going to force passengers to queue to have tickets checked prior to boarding, how about inside, not out on the platform no matter how cold the weather. 

Or adding to the digital sign board an announcement as to when queuing starts.


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## neroden (Dec 20, 2018)

If the budgetary problem for the Legacy Club is the free drinks, get rid of them, and see how many commuters continue to use it.  It might actually be a profitable venture just as a Metra commuter lounge.


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## tim49424 (Dec 20, 2018)

neroden said:


> If the budgetary problem for the Legacy Club is the free drinks, get rid of them, and see how many commuters continue to use it.  It might actually be a profitable venture just as a Metra commuter lounge.




I'm not sure what the issue with the Legacy Club was.  I utilized it twice and it is nice.  I'd rather have the canned soft drinks vs. the fountain any day, you can bring outside food into the Club as you cannot in the new ML, the snacks are more readily available and there all day long and frankly even the early boarding worked better than the ML's early board.  The problem was, on those days I was there, I'd arrive a little after 9 and leave for my train back around 6 (I did day trips both times) and I'd see less than a dozen people utilize it during that time.  Maybe it was the fact that the club is so poorly promoted. Yes, I'd hear the canned announcements a few times per day while at CUS, but I don't remember hearing much anywhere else.  I actually learned about the LC from posts on AU.  So I'm not sure things would be much different if it exclusively went to being a Metra lounge.


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## Anderson (Dec 21, 2018)

I think I found about it from AU.  There was a brief push on the Amtrak website, but other than that I don't think there was ever an attempt to "push" it to many audiences.


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## NW cannonball (Dec 21, 2018)

I've never cared about whatever amenities Chicago station has, only to get to the connecting train. Without too much hassle from the homeless.

Long ago, like 50 years, there were showers for some classes of pax. Never used that.

Fairly digestible food while waiting -- a plus.  But the nearby neighborhoods have better.

Booze - well, that's been a plus for the south shore etc for decades - as for the station --- overpriced booze and prepaid redhat service never paid off even since the days of Parmalee? spelling ?


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## cpotisch (Dec 21, 2018)

NW cannonball said:


> L﻿ong﻿ ago, li﻿ke 50 years, there were showers for some classes of pax. Never used tha﻿t.


You know, the ML has showers.


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## ehbowen (Dec 21, 2018)

NW cannonball said:


> ...even since the days of Parmalee? spelling ?


I've seen both "Parmalee" and "Parmelee". Haven't seen anything authoritative to confirm between the two, but I believe I saw a scanned flyer from the period which spelled it 'Parmelee.' So that's what I generally use.

[For the larger audience, the Parmelee (Parmalee?) Transfer Company used to have the exclusive franchise in Chicago to transport connecting passengers between the city's six (seven if you count the North Shore Line) intercity railroad passenger terminals. There was no out-of-pocket cost to passengers; if you purchased a ticket from, say, Syracuse, NY on the Water Level Route to Portland, OR via Union Pacific then you would along with your rail tickets be issued a coupon for a transfer from La Salle St. Station (Chicago home of the NYC) to North Western Station (C&NW handled UP trains east of Council Bluffs until 1955) or, beginning in 1955, Union Station after the Milwaukee Road took over.]


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## railiner (Dec 21, 2018)

Parmelee would eventually evolve into Continental Air Transport, now known as GO Airport Express.   Parmelee sold its Railroad Transfer Service operation to Keeshin Charter Service in 1955, and it ran up until about the time of Amtrak....

*

I noticed that in a couple of posts, you mentioned the C&NW operating the UP "City" trains, east of Council Bluffs.   While it is true that the C&NW operated as one of several "tennants" of the UP over its Missouri River Bridge between Council Bluffs and Omaha, I believe it was still considered a C&NW train all the way into Omaha.  They did not stop at 'The Bluffs" to change crews....


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## dedhd (Dec 22, 2018)

Does the Legacy club have showers?


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## PVD (Dec 22, 2018)

I don't think so...


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## tim49424 (Dec 22, 2018)

dedhd said:


> Does the Legacy club have showers?


No. Only the ML does.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 22, 2018)

I think what happened with the Legacy Club was that Amtrak thought Metra passengers and Amtrak coach passengers would want to have a lounge like the Metropolitan Club. However, most Metra commuters arrive at the station just minutes before their train leaves. They may grab a drink or a snack before getting on, but they are not going to be sitting around a lounge area, no matter how nice, for an hour or so before their train leaves. Amtrak coach passengers are probably traveling on a budget, so they don't want to spend $20 per passenger to use the lounge. So, the lounge never really  attracted enough patrons to be profitable.


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## benale (Dec 22, 2018)

I like the Legacy lounge over the Metropolitan. Better food selection and you could have up to three or four full size drinks during their happy hour instead of the wine tasting at the Metropolitan. Ive used it while riding Coach. I ve wanted to use it with a sleeper but I couldnt justify paying the $20


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## cpotisch (Dec 22, 2018)

benale said:


> I like the Legacy lounge over the Metropolitan. Better food selection and you could have up to three or four full size drinks during their happy hour instead of the wine tasting at the Metropolitan. Ive used it while riding Coach. I ve wanted to use it with a sleeper but I couldnt justify paying the $20


Why did they make the Legacy Lounge nicer than the Metropolitan Lounge? The Met Lounge is for their highest paying customers, so I just feel like it would make way more sense for that to be the nicest offering.


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## bratkinson (Dec 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Why did they make the Legacy Lounge nicer than the Metropolitan Lounge? The Met Lounge is for their highest paying customers, so I just feel like it would make way more sense for that to be the nicest offering.


$20 is $20. 

As coach passengers have to pay for their food onboard, why not make a couple bucks during their layover, too?  I suspect the only reason they may be/are closing it is that it isn't 'making money'.  Too few customers to break even, I guess.


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## tim49424 (Dec 22, 2018)

benale said:


> I like the Legacy lounge over the Metropolitan. Better food selection and you could have up to three or four full size drinks during their happy hour instead of the wine tasting at the Metropolitan. Ive used it while riding Coach. I ve wanted to use it with a sleeper but I couldnt justify paying the $20


Agree 100%.  For me, riding coach on a day trip to Chicago and back plus the $20 daily fee is cheaper than the Business Class upgrade and then being entitled to the ML.  However, when I'm on a LD trip and have a sleeper, there is no way I could justify the extra $20.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 29, 2019)

I believe the Legacy Lounge is scheduled to close in early February.  Possibly, Feb 1st.


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## Rincewind (Jan 30, 2019)

This would be a pity. I hoped to be able to try it end of February. Is there a day pass for the Metropolitan Lounge for connecting Coach Passengers?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 30, 2019)

Rincewind said:


> This would be a pity. I hoped to be able to try it end of February. Is there a day pass for the Metropolitan Lounge for connecting Coach Passengers?


I think you can get a day pass for $50.


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## PVD (Jan 30, 2019)

That matches what it says on the website....


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## cpotisch (Jan 30, 2019)

$50 really is just ridiculous for a day pass to a lounge. You can literally get a “dummy” Business Class ticket on the Lincoln Service to Joliet for $21.50, which will gain you entrance to the ML, so why on earth would someone spend well over twice that on a lounge pass?


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## VTTrain (Jan 30, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> $50 really is just ridiculous for a day pass to a lounge. You can literally get a “dummy” Business Class ticket on the Lincoln Service to Joliet for $21.50, which will gain you entrance to the ML, so why on earth would someone spend well over twice that on a lounge pass?


Most people aren't savvy enough to do that.  On a busy day you are denying a real passenger the use of that seat, which is a rather selfish thing to do.  And if too many people do this they will take away the privilege for actual travelers on the Lincoln Service.  As much as I appreciate getting a deal, this isn't the way to go about it.

Keep in mind that the Metropolitan Lounge is not a lemonade stand.  They don't want too many people buying day passes because they don't want the lounge to be overcrowded.  The value of the lounge is the fact that it isn't too crowded.  For this reason it makes sense to keep the price of a day pass high.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 30, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> $50 really is just ridiculous for a day pass to a lounge.


Depends on the lounge in question.  There are some well appointed examples located at intercontinental gateways that would be worth twice or even triple that price for an extended layover (IMO).  Unfortunately those particular lounges rarely sell or accept day passes.



VTTrain said:


> On a busy day you are denying a real passenger the use of that seat, which is a rather selfish thing to do.  Keep in mind that the Metropolitan Lounge is not a lemonade stand.  They don't want too many people buying day passes because they don't want the lounge to be overcrowded.  The value of the lounge is the fact that it isn't too crowded.  For this reason it makes sense to keep the price of a day pass high.


Most lounges that sell day passes reserve the right to refuse further sales when the lounge is busy.


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## dlagrua (Jan 30, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> Most people aren't savvy enough to do that.  On a busy day you are denying a real passenger the use of that seat, which is a rather selfish thing to do.
> 
> Keep in mind that the Metropolitan Lounge is not a lemonade stand.  They don't want too many people buying day passes because they don't want the lounge to be overcrowded.  The value of the lounge is the fact that it isn't too crowded.  For this reason it makes sense to keep the price of a day pass high.


The Metropolitan Lounge can get very crowded after lunch and in the afternoons during the busy season. I see the $50 fee for a day pass being instituted to not make the lounge more crowded during those busy times. The purpose of the Legacy club might have been  to offer coach passengers a waiting area but a $20 pass for a few hours of connection time didn't attract a wide audience.  The Legacy Club was also not heavily promoted and its location far from the gates is also not ideal. What they should have done is to give all frequent coach passengers a one time/single use Legacy Club guess pass and then promoted memberships.


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## VTTrain (Jan 30, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Most lounges that sell day passes reserve the right to refuse further sales when the lounge is busy.


Understood.  My point is that they set the price high so they don't often have to do that.  They are better off selling only 25 passes at $50 than selling 25 passes at $10 and having to shut off further sales.  The 25 number is arbitrary, but you get my point.  The goal is to set the price to so that demand matches the actual amount of the limited space that is available.  They can't just buy more lemons and sugar when demand increases.


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## PVD (Jan 30, 2019)

I'd laugh pretty hard if a person with tickets on a long trip out of Chicago had their reservation cancelled by the computer under the clearly stated "duplicate/impossible booking" prohibition, got gigged with a cancellation penalty, and had to rebook at a higher bucket when they found out their ticket was no longer valid, in order to save a few bucks....


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## cpotisch (Jan 30, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> Most people aren't savvy enough to do that.  On a busy day you are denying a real passenger the use of that seat, which is a rather selfish thing to do.  And if too many people do this they will take away the privilege for actual travelers on the Lincoln Service.  As much as I appreciate getting a deal, this isn't the way to go about it.
> 
> Keep in mind that the Metropolitan Lounge is not a lemonade stand.  They don't want too many people buying day passes because they don't want the lounge to be overcrowded.  The value of the lounge is the fact that it isn't too crowded.  For this reason it makes sense to keep the price of a day pass high.


It is Amtrak’s choice to allow all Business Class ticket holders into the Lounge, and since Business Class on the Lincoln Service rarely sells out anyway, I really don’t see any moral issues with it. Remember that up until recently, BC tickets offered full refunds to no-shows, which was basically an endorsement by Amtrak of people booking tickets, tying up seats, not riding, and still getting all their money back. And the current policy still offers BC passengers full refunds so long as they officially cancel the ticket before departure.

So I just don’t see why it’s at all problematic or selfish to book (and pay for) a short Business Class ticket to get access to the ML.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 30, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> The goal is to set the price to so that demand matches the actual amount of the limited space that is available.


I'm not terribly familiar with the situation in Chicago but the ML in Los Angeles seems to suffer from excessive Business Class usage.  Prior to allowing BC the ML was fit for the task (other than lack of showers).  Now it's packed to the walls and rafters with local commuters.



PVD said:


> I'd laugh pretty hard if a person with tickets on a long trip out of Chicago had their reservation cancelled by the computer under the clearly stated "duplicate/impossible booking" prohibition, got gigged with a cancellation penalty, and had to rebook at a higher bucket when they found out their ticket was no longer valid, in order to save a few bucks....


IIRC the duplicate/impossible scanning process is an after hours task that probably wouldn't catch same-day purchases and refunds.  So long as the Business Class ticket has some variation in the name and is not linked to the same account number it would probably survive an overnight scan as well.  In Amtrak's own words they will attempt to contact the customer first and will only cancel bookings if they are unable to reach the passenger in question.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 30, 2019)

Off topic posts removed.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 30, 2019)

It was a nice idea I guess. But not surprised to see it close.  I suppose there may have been a few LD coach passengers that would be willing to pay the $20 fee now and then, but for the most part most passengers who think $20 to sit in a lounge is a good idea will be the type of people who pay for Business Class / Sleeper. 

The difference between the ML and LL are not worth $20 to me. 

I had always wondered if there was a plan for Amtrak to create some sort of "Legacy Service" with more of a 1st class vacationer approach. Kind of what Ed Ellis was trying to do with Pullman but have Amtrak operate the service themselves. When the Legacy Lounge opened it a more positive time and such a plan seemed like it could be realistic, and would explain why money would have been invested into an even more upscale lounge than the ML.


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## VTTrain (Jan 30, 2019)

A nice compromise would have been to have the Legacy Club for business travelers and those willing to pay $20 while keeping the Metropolitan Lounge solely for sleeper car passengers.  But of course this is would not be as cost efficient.


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## PVD (Jan 30, 2019)

I'd be curious as to the original marketing plan. They may have anticipated a higher number of METRA commuter customers, and that never materialized.


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## OBS (Jan 30, 2019)

PVD said:


> I'd be curious as to the original marketing plan. They may have anticipated a higher number of METRA commuter customers, and that never materialized.


Agree...


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 30, 2019)

It seems odd (not impossible though) that the entire project would be based on Metra passengers.  I feel like this project had to have been part of something else that never happened. Like a Legacy service or something.  Maybe even a re-branding of business class cars out of Chicago (all those corridor trains really add up, throw in some free drinks on the train, a fancy lounge at CHI and a slick logo and charge triple the current business class price?).  Who knows.. I just feel it was part of a bigger project that opened when it did because of construction reasons.


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## Manny T (Jan 31, 2019)

I think they opened up the Legacy Lounge for a variety of reasons happening at the same time: the Met Lounge opened for sleeper PAX, the old coach waiting room was to be closed for renovations, and the Great Hall was being revived for general waiting purposes. In that context, putting a NICER waiting area just off the (now crowded) Great Hall (it used to be empty) and making some money by charging for entry, made sense. On paper.

Unfortunately, it fizzled.


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## pennyk (Jan 31, 2019)

I believe the Chicago facilities director who spearheaded the Legacy Lounge project is no longer with Amtrak.  I have no idea if there is a relationship.


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