# One more reason to take the train



## neroden

Airlines still overbook and throw people off.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-10/united-s-forcible-removal-from-overbooked-flight-triggers-outrage

Amtrak *never* bumps people unless a train is cancelled; overbooked passengers are generally accomodated in the cafe or dining car. Because there is no hard weight limit on a train.


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## Devil's Advocate

I've never understood this line of reasoning. No matter where you run the head bashing police state will follow you. They're operating under increasingly ruthless and vindictive societal norms and they're becoming mostly immune to serious life-altering repercussions. They couldn't care less if you scream or shout or photograph them or not. We've seen this before and deep down we know where it ends, but I guess acknowledging that reality is harder than pretending you can stop and prevent it simply by choosing a different transportation method. What a bizarre angle from which to post this story. This is neither the time nor the place to spin the story in order to plug travel on Amtrak.


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## zepherdude

I think that was pretty terrible to drag a passenger off a flight because of overbooking. I would really hold that against UAL. Trump has cut funding for Amtrak, so what are we supposed to do to get from point A to B. I am retired now and take the train for pleasure and enjoyment. I guess that is over too.

We often gripe about Amtrak service and food, however, I have never, ever seen a PAX removed because of an overbooked train. I have seen people seated in the club car until seats are available. The airlines are really a terrible way to travel. UAL sounds like a snake pit.


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## KmH

Air travel sucks.

Simply _astounding_.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/10/523275494/passenger-forcibly-removed-from-united-flight-prompting-outcry

Videos from on the plane:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Passenger+Forcibly+Removed+From+United+Flight

MODERATOR NOTE: This post was in a separate thread and has been merged into this thread discussing this incident.


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## Devil's Advocate

zepherdude said:


> I think that was pretty terrible to drag a passenger off a flight because of overbooking. I would really hold that against UAL. Trump has cut funding for Amtrak, so what are we supposed to do to get from point A to B. I am retired now and take the train for pleasure and enjoyment. I guess that is over too.
> 
> We often gripe about Amtrak service and food, however, I have never, ever seen a PAX removed because of an overbooked train. I have seen people seated in the club car until seats are available. The airlines are really a terrible way to travel. UAL sounds like a snake pit.


They knocked him out cold. We could revoke UA's charter today and it wouldn't solve anything that's actually wrong with this video.


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## SP&S

And I remember when United billed themselves as "The Friendly Skies".


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## seat38a

Just to clear things up here, the airline was actually Republic Airlines, United's commuter contractor. Yes I get it, if everything says United, then they are at fault, but I think it should be made clear that this was NOT United mainline.


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## afigg

zepherdude said:


> I think that was pretty terrible to drag a passenger off a flight because of overbooking. I would really hold that against UAL. Trump has cut funding for Amtrak, so what are we supposed to do to get from point A to B. I am retired now and take the train for pleasure and enjoyment. I guess that is over too.


This is off-topic for this thread about the entirely self-inflicted stupid very bad PR day for United Airline, but President Trump has not cut any funding for Amtrak. His administration released a budget guideline proposing deep cuts, but it is up to Congress to determine what the annual funding levels are. The US government is running on continuing resolutions for Fiscal year 2017 (despite the small detail that we are > 6 months into the FY) and it appears that the final FY17 funding amounts will be about the same. My bet is that will also be true for FY2018 after a lot of noise.

As for the UAL incident, what was the heck were the gate staff, crew and law enforcement officers thinking? Me thinks someone is going to get fired for this. As they should.


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## trainman74

seat38a said:


> Just to clear things up here, the airline was actually Republic Airlines, United's commuter contractor. Yes I get it, if everything says United, then they are at fault, but I think it should be made clear that this was NOT United mainline.


Since the flight was out of Chicago-O'Hare, it's probable that the gate agents working the flight were mainline United employees. (However, we don't know exactly how much of a role the gate agents played in the situation.)


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## A Voice

Devil's Advocate said:


> I've never understood this line of reasoning. No matter where you run the head bashing police state will follow you. They're operating under increasingly ruthless and vindictive societal norms and they're becoming mostly immune to serious life-altering repercussions. They couldn't care less if you scream or shout or photograph them or not. We've seen this before and deep down we know where it ends, but I guess acknowledging that reality is harder than pretending you can stop and prevent it simply by choosing a different transportation method. What a bizarre angle from which to post this story. This is neither the time nor the place to spin the story in order to plug travel on Amtrak.


This was a blatant abuse of power which followed a chain reaction of stupidity on the part of the airline, staff, and policies (keeping in mind there is much we don't know), but in no way does it equate to a 'police state'. And while you are correct in that it is most certainly not an appropriate plug for rail transportation, it is also true that you actually can still avoid such excessive 'heavy handed' and uncalled for treatment by an alternate mode of transportation. The degree of security and expected strict compliance of air travel has not (ordinarily) found its way onto trains, buses, or your private automobile.

If the hyperbole is so great you call America a police state, what do you then call North Korea?


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## Devil's Advocate

seat38a said:


> Just to clear things up here, the airline was actually Republic Airlines, United's commuter contractor. Yes I get it, if everything says United, then they are at fault, but I think it should be made clear that this was NOT United mainline.


 United hired Republic to fly on United's behalf. United sells and represents Republic flights as if they were their own. Republic staff follow United rules and speak and act as though they work for United. In the court of public opinion this is a distinction without a difference. The more significant realization is that this event is by no means unique to any one airline. Today it's on United. Tomorrow it could be on American or Southwest.



A Voice said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never understood this line of reasoning. No matter where you run the head bashing police state will follow you. They're operating under increasingly ruthless and vindictive societal norms and they're becoming mostly immune to serious life-altering repercussions. They couldn't care less if you scream or shout or photograph them or not. We've seen this before and deep down we know where it ends, but I guess acknowledging that reality is harder than pretending you can stop and prevent it simply by choosing a different transportation method. What a bizarre angle from which to post this story. This is neither the time nor the place to spin the story in order to plug travel on Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> This was a blatant abuse of power which followed a chain reaction of stupidity on the part of the airline, staff, and policies (keeping in mind there is much we don't know), but in no way does it equate to a 'police state'. And while you are correct in that it is most certainly not an appropriate plug for rail transportation, it is also true that you actually can still avoid such excessive 'heavy handed' and uncalled for treatment by an alternate mode of transportation. The degree of security and expected strict compliance of air travel has not (ordinarily) found its way onto trains, buses, or your private automobile. If the hyperbole is so great you call America a police state, what do you then call North Korea?
Click to expand...

You see a chain reaction of stupidity. I see a chain reaction of irrational fear and indiscriminate cruelty. Entire nations don't suddenly get dumber, but they can be overcome with fear and manipulation. When security agencies operate under a secret rubber stamp court, can monitor and record your every move without a warrant, and can shoot unarmed citizens who are sitting, laying down, or running away with impunity I consider that to be a police state. Not sure what else to call it.

You cannot avoid the police state by running away to Amtrak. Sooner or later the ever growing security apparatus will simply follow the crowd wherever it may go next. My supposedly private vehicle travel is routinely monitored by conventional cameras, infrared cameras, OCR license plate recorders, stationary and mobile radar, radio frequency identification collection, and even fake cell phone towers.

When I travel down the highway my vehicle is photographed and recorded by over a dozen different identification devices as I'm stopped and subjected to unwarranted drug and contraband inspections using questionable discovery techniques and my legal status is routinely questioned. I suppose we could call this a transitory "surveillance state" if it really makes you feel that much better. As for North Korea, that is a dictatorship. A status we do not currently live under, but should the current administration make good on previous threats to imprison the opposition I would be hard pressed to see otherwise.


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## ScouseAndy

Further reason and justification why as a potential tourist I have sadly steared away from traveling to the US for my honeymoon. Instead I will taking my £ and exchanging for Yen and swapping Amtrak for Shinkansen. I am not alone and UK tourists are turning away from the US in the thousands and it's costing your society millions in lost revenue

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/travel/2017/feb/28/us-tourism-experiences-a-trump-slump


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## saxman

We don't really know how it got escalated to this situation, and perhaps never will. It's just that the guy refused to get off the plane when asked, so law enforcement had to get involved. Perhaps they overstepped their bounds, but just search youTube. There are numerous videos of LEO's forcefully removing passengers. Most of them are drunk, yes. Some articles said they needed to get deadheading crew onboard to operate a later flight. Other reasons could be that the flight was overweight, but that would be an extremely rare case for a E-175. This has little to do with Republic Airlines as they happen to be the ones operating this flight on this particular day. Overbookings are handled by United and Chicago has all United staff working the gates. This will just go down as another PR ding for United until the next one comes up on the next airline in a week or two.


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## railiner

I still think the solution would be to eliminate all overbooking, and make all no-shows lose their entire fare paid...

That's the way Broadway theaters operate...use it or lose it...


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## Devil's Advocate

saxman said:


> We don't really know how it got escalated to this situation, and perhaps never will. It's just that the guy refused to get off the plane when asked, so law enforcement had to get involved.


Let's not use sloppy wording to gloss over the obvious. Being _asked_ means you can _choose_ to keep your seat. That's not what they were doing here. If there are exceptional circumstances that require giving away paid and confirmed seats to company staff then there should be an _equally_ exceptional VDB benefit available that substantially outweighs the opportunity cost for enough travelers to vacate their seats. If you need to IDB a paid and checked-in passenger then you do it _before_ they're already on board and seated with luggage stowed. Instead of using hyper-aggressive security services as the catchall solution to every minor problem maybe US companies should start training their frontline staff on appropriate deescalation techniques.


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## OlympianHiawatha

With the right attorneys, this pax could well end up owning a large portion of United or Republic or whatever was involved. When time doesn't allow me to take the train and I fly, I always try to fly _*Southwest*_. They do a great job of getting the flying done without nickel-diming you to death.


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## seat38a

ScouseAndy said:


> Further reason and justification why as a potential tourist I have sadly steared away from traveling to the US for my honeymoon. Instead I will taking my £ and exchanging for Yen and swapping Amtrak for Shinkansen. I am not alone and UK tourists are turning away from the US in the thousands and it's costing your society millions in lost revenue
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/travel/2017/feb/28/us-tourism-experiences-a-trump-slump


Believe me, we won't loose sleep over the loss. The general public is generally really apathetic towards tourists here. Also due to the different tipping cultures, employees generally are loath to deal with tourists vs other Americans. Having worked in the service industry before, its the general mood of the employees who rely on tips.


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## seat38a

SP&S said:


> And I remember when United billed themselves as "The Friendly Skies".


Whats your point?

American used to be "Something special in the air"

Delta "We love to fly and it shows"

They ALL suck. Between Delta's meltdown and United playing pinata with a passenger, I'm just waiting to see what American is going to do to to out do their competitors news.


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## Carolina Special

The United CEO has kept digging himself into the PR hole by defending his staff's actions. That's the curious part of this debacle, keeping it going.

Also been picked by Chinese social media, hurting United's rep over there.

Never would have happened if 1)passengers were bumped at the gate instead of the plane or 2)ticket agent raised compensation to what someone was willing to take.


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## CHamilton

United Loses $800 Million in Value After Passenger Dragged Off Plane


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## Devil's Advocate

Carolina Special said:


> The United CEO has kept digging himself into the PR hole by defending his staff's actions. That's the curious part of this debacle, keeping it going.


&



CHamilton said:


> United Loses $800 Million in Value After Passenger Dragged Off Plane


United's market cap has slid from 22.5 to 21.70 billion. This dispute is only a minor blemish to them so far. Despite the backlash United is simply following the same blame-the-victim PR scrip as our current executive branch, so no surprises there. If UA have any fear at all it will be limited to antagonizing international customers and foreign institutional investors. On the other hand they may actually end up attracting _more_ Russian and Filipino passengers as a result of this heavy handed hyper authoritarian video.



Carolina Special said:


> Never would have happened if 1)passengers were bumped at the gate instead of the plane or 2)ticket agent raised compensation to what someone was willing to take.


Agreed 100%, but from United's perspective why put effort into deescalation when you can simply call in security to mop up after your lousy customer service makes a complete mess of everything?


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## A Voice

Carolina Special said:


> Never would have happened if 1)passengers were bumped at the gate instead of the plane or 2)ticket agent raised compensation to what someone was willing to take.


Which is a critical point (for the sake of argument, has it been reported what volunteers were offered, and declined?). For sufficiently generous compensation, somebody is ultimately going to take the offer. A complimentary hotel or meals have a real cost, but things like (discount) travel vouchers and even free flights potentially cost the airline almost nothing (giving away seats which are likely to otherwise remain unsold).



Devil's Advocate said:


> Agreed 100%, but from United's perspective why put effort into deescalation when you can simply call in security to mop up after your lousy customer service makes a complete mess of everything?


One would have hoped deescalation would be the easier and more expedient option, but obviously not. You really have to wonder what some people were thinking (or lack thereof).


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## KmH

I had missed that post #8 covered the "Trump cut Amtraks funding" comment.


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## dlagrua

Forcibly removing a passenger who had a paid ticket and who did nothing wrong is a terrible violation of a persons civil rights. The airline overbooks to increase their profit and when the plane overfills, it becomes the paying customers fault. The cops that bloodied this man should go back, read the oath that they swore to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. In this case the airline is the enemy not the innocent law abiding passenger. Law enforcement must always honor their oath and not become brownshirt robots for the elite. Police are there to protect our rights not violate them. I hope that the injured passenger sues United Airlines (who is not even apologetic) and that the bad cop loses his job.


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## fairviewroad

I'm surprised I'm the first one to point out a major problem with the premise of this thread: "One more reason to take the train."

The flight in question was from Chicago to Louisville. There is no train service to Louisville. Amtrak will sell you a train ticket to Indianapolis, arriving at midnight, followed by a 5:50 a.m. Thruway bus connection in the morning.

It's so incredibly hard to imagine why people would think that flying would be a better choice to get from Chicago to Louisville. :huh:


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## Devil's Advocate

dlagrua said:


> The cops that bloodied this man should go back, read the oath that they swore to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.


They're just following the status quo at this point. Can't expect our security services to act any more responsibly or compassionately than the people above them. That kind of calm and rational leadership has to come from the top. Oh, right.


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## seat38a

Well the doctor has a past history it seems.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/


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## Devil's Advocate

seat38a said:


> Well the doctor has a past history it seems.
> 
> http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/


I guess two wrongs really _do_ make a right. <_<

Nonetheless, from the linked story...



> United CEO Oscar Munoz apologized for the incident Monday, but hours later *he sent a letter to the airline's employees hours later lauding the behavior of the flight crew* when Dao, whom he described as "disruptive and belligerent," was removed. *He credited employees with following established procedures.*


Regardless of whatever disingenuous pandering nonsense they may say in the future, I think that comes pretty close to settling United's true position on this matter. So far as the top brass are concerned official procedures were followed, the customer is unilaterally in the wrong for refusing to give up his paid (and even acquired) seat in line with the severe power imbalance created by UA's lopsided contract of carriage. According to UA's head honcho there was nothing else that could be done but to call in security to aggressively and violently mop up their self-inflicted mess after apathy and indifference failed to get the job done.


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## Chey

seat38a said:


> Well the doctor has a past history it seems.
> 
> http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/


A lot of people have a past. What's that got to do with what happened? Did they access his criminal history before they ejected him? Are our pasts now subject to airline employee scrutiny?


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## MikefromCrete

Oscar Munoz, United's CEO, is a former high honcho at CSX. Lousily run railroad, lousily run airline.


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## seat38a

Chey said:


> A lot of people have a past. What's that got to do with what happened? Did they access his criminal history before they ejected him? Are our pasts now subject to airline employee scrutiny?


Nope, but the world is up in arms about the "Poor Sweet Doctor" who got a beatdown for not listening to the cops. That poor sweet doctor is a convicted felon and contributing to the drug addiction problem of Appalachia taking money and sex as payment. My point? EVERYONE is jumping to conclusions. Do we even know what the doctor said to the cops??? No one seems to have caught that on camera. People are ready to lynch the cops and the airline based on NON fully investigated incident and in China according to news, their social media is up in a roar because a Chinese Man(He is Vietnamese) got a beatdown.


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## Devil's Advocate

seat38a said:


> Chey said:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people have a past. What's that got to do with what happened? Did they access his criminal history before they ejected him? Are our pasts now subject to airline employee scrutiny?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the world is up in arms about the "Poor Sweet Doctor" who got a beatdown for not listening to the cops. That poor sweet doctor is a convicted felon and contributing to the drug addiction problem of Appalachia taking money and sex as payment. My point? EVERYONE is jumping to conclusions. Do we even know what the doctor said to the cops??? No one seems to have caught that on camera. People are ready to lynch the cops and the airline based on NON fully investigated incident and in China according to news, their social media is up in a roar because a Chinese Man(He is Vietnamese) got a beatdown.
Click to expand...

Poor sweet doctor?

More like an (understandably) irate paying passenger who was apparently sick and tired of being jerked around by United's lousy customer service and incomprehensible excuses. I've been there myself many times before. I've never been physically forced out of my seat, but I have been _tricked_ out of it by an unscrupulous flight attendant who tried to make it look like they were helping me only to discover that it was a setup. I think many former and current customers would readily accept that over the last several years United has become a discombobulated mess of an airline that is managed and staffed by people who would struggle to _comprehend_ empathy, let alone actually experience it.

If this passenger has done something wrong or illegal unrelated to the flight then by all means punish him in a manner appropriate and relevant for the crime or infraction committed, but don't pretend that some unrelated backstory should give an overzealous airline carte blanche to treat their customers however they please. At the end of the day the public has been rudely reminded that United views and treats their passengers like freight. Regardless of whatever this man may have done in the past, seeing a company as despised as United proudly admit that it expects and withholds the right to treat paying customers like illegitimate stowaways is a bad look for this clusterfork of an airline.


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## ehbowen




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## ehbowen

Devil's Advocate said:


> At the end of the day the public has been rudely reminded that United views and treats passengers like freight.


I disagree; United has to _pay_ for damaged freight....


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## dlagrua

seat38a said:


> Chey said:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people have a past. What's that got to do with what happened? Did they access his criminal history before they ejected him? Are our pasts now subject to airline employee scrutiny?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the world is up in arms about the "Poor Sweet Doctor" who got a beatdown for not listening to the cops. That poor sweet doctor is a convicted felon and contributing to the drug addiction problem of Appalachia taking money and sex as payment. My point? EVERYONE is jumping to conclusions. Do we even know what the doctor said to the cops??? No one seems to have caught that on camera. People are ready to lynch the cops and the airline based on NON fully investigated incident and in China according to news, their social media is up in a roar because a Chinese Man(He is Vietnamese) got a beatdown.
Click to expand...

I don't buy that ethnicity or character has any bearing on this incident. People of every ethnicity are entitled to the same constitutional and civil rights as all the rest of us. If he wasn't a nice guy so what? As long as he behaves while aboard the plane, this is irrelevant.


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## Devil's Advocate

ehbowen said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the day the public has been rudely reminded that United views and treats passengers like freight.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree; United has to _pay_ for damaged freight....
Click to expand...

You'd think so, but au contraire...


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## Bob Dylan

Thuggery by any other name is just that!

Dragging a bleeding,paying passenger off a plane so a deadhead crew can fly is obscene and plain stupidity.

Hopefully this man has a crackerjack lawyer and will enjoy his new life as a wealthy airline owner! 

All the apologists for United can just "Tell it to the Marines!"


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## Asher

anumberone said:


> If I'm sitting on that plane I'm pissed the guy won't get off like the other three did, that overbooking causing someone to get off happens a lot more often than you think. Anytime you buy a ticket you may overlook it, but you are advised the plane may be over booked.


If I'm sitting on that plane I'm pissed the guy won't get off like the other three did, that overbooking causing someone to get off happens a lot more often than you think. Anytime you buy a ticket you may overlook it, but you are advised the plane may be over booked.

I don't know the reason why they needed room for this particular situation, I do know that a pilot can end a flight in Chicago and have to fly to a different city for the next flight.


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## west point

Speculation but ---------- Republic boarded airplane at ORD. Then got a call from either Republic or United to hold airplane for 4 must ride crew members. Even had to delay flight to wait for D/H crew. Instead of getting volunteers ( Paid ) to give up seats took long time to process that request. Finally had to remove passengers (4) with the one refusing. They should have upped the ante. Why doctor got back on unknown but suspect 1 or more passengers thought what the heck or were going to miss appointment.

This is going to result in costing United many mega bucks in the future as many future passengers will think they can hold out for higher denied boarding compensation. More force able removals ? Who knows ?


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## MikefromCrete

anumberone said:


> anumberone said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm sitting on that plane I'm pissed the guy won't get off like the other three did, that overbooking causing someone to get off happens a lot more often than you think. Anytime you buy a ticket you may overlook it, but you are advised the plane may be over booked.
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm sitting on that plane I'm pissed the guy won't get off like the other three did, that overbooking causing someone to get off happens a lot more often than you think. Anytime you buy a ticket you may overlook it, but you are advised the plane may be over booked.
> 
> I don't know the reason why they needed room for this particular situation, I do know that a pilot can end a flight in Chicago and have to fly to a different city for the next flight.
Click to expand...

Turns out the flight wasn't overbooked. Deadhead crew apparently showed up at last minute after the plane had been loaded. This whole thing was terribly mishandled. From the last minute crew boarding to a supervisor who handled the announcement very badly to calling in the airport security police who totally over reacted. Interesting, the airport security police, who are not part of the Chicago police department, have been arguing to be armed. That whole proposal, which had some city council support, has blown up in their face. It seems like suspensions are in order for whoever ordered the deadhead crew to board an already full plane and the supervisor who handled the whole situation. Whoever wrote the first p.r. statement and then Munuoz's "our employees did nothing wrong" statement also need some time off. Munoz's head may have to roll, too, but since he's a CEO he'll get a very golden parachute. The whole thing is an object lesson for how not to deal with the public.


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## WoodyinNYC

fairviewroad said:


> I'm surprised I'm the first one to point out a major problem with the premise of this thread: "One more reason to take the train."
> 
> The flight in question was from Chicago to Louisville. There is no train service to Louisville. Amtrak ... to Indianapolis, arriving at midnight, followed by a 5:50 a.m. Thruway bus ...
> 
> It's so incredibly hard to imagine why people would think that flying would be a better choice to get from Chicago to Louisville. :huh:


Don't be silly. Nobody here is saying those passengers should have used the current trains which are painfully slow, or actually don't exist.

But airline incidents like this one do give another reason to favor investing in more and better trains, to give travelers a reasonable choice.

It's hard to imagine that Indiana passed on the chance to invest $250 million in a few passing sidings and other measures to cut 29 minutes out of the CHI-Indy route of the _Cardinal_ and _Hoosier State_. And nobody with any power to make stuff happen shows any interest in upgrading tracks beyond Indy to Cincinnati and *to Louisville*.

If airline customers could do CHI-Louisville in 4 hours or so by train instead, there might be plenty of empty seats on those flights out of O'Hare.


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## fairviewroad

WoodyinNYC said:


> If airline customers could do CHI-Louisville in 4 hours or so by train instead, there might be plenty of empty seats on those flights out of O'Hare.


I suspect most folks on any given CHI-Louisville flight are connecting from somewhere else, so improved rail service may not have that much affect on the number of empty seats on those flights. It would probably draw folks who are currently driving, but that's purely a guess.

Yes, this incident can be used as an argument for investing in more trains. I agree with you on that. I was being a little tongue-in-cheek in the post that you quoted. I guess it didn't come across that way.


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## Devil's Advocate

Another United Foot Shooting Story is Making the Rounds Lately...



> United passenger threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' traveler


 Link: http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-united-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html

------------------------------------

In an effort to put my money where my mouth is I'm...

1. Converting UA flights to other modes of transit

2. Converting UA/MP points into gift cards

3. Closing my UA/MP credit accounts

4. Closing my UA/MP earning accounts

5. Signing petitions asking the CEO to leave

I've only earned 20,000 status miles in the first quarter of 2017, so I doubt they could care less if I stay or leave, but it still feels good to practice what you preach.


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## XHRTSP

trainman74 said:


> Since the flight was out of Chicago-O'Hare, it's probable that the gate agents working the flight were mainline United employees. (However, we don't know exactly how much of a role the gate agents played in the situation.)


Gate agent would have been United. Deadheading crew likely, based on size and route, Republic. If Republic, assuming it was their crew, waited to the last minute to assign that deadhead for reasons not including wx, mx, other reasons beyond their control, this whole thing falls on them. I've worked for a United Express carrier, and I've seen these scheduling schennigans before.
That being said, just like a parent is responsible for the actions of a minor, United is responsible for the actions of their contractors. If they don't like it, they can buy their own regional jets and fly those routes themselves.


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## XHRTSP

anumberone said:


> I don't know the reason why they needed room for this particular situation, I do know that a pilot can end a flight in Chicago and have to fly to a different city for the next flight.


For obvious reasons airlines don't like building deadhead legs into their crew schedules. It takes away revenue seats, plus crews get paid, normally half rate or more, for time spend in transit. When this does happen, it's normally because something like weather, mechanical problems, crew duty limitations, sick calls, or similiar throws a monkey wrench into things. Ideally the second you know you need to move crew, you block out those seats from the reservation system.


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## railiner

So...the whole thing was caused because they couldn't get one more booked passenger to deplane for the deadhead crew, right? I am wondering if they could have just had one of the deadheading pilots occupy the cockpit jump seat for the relatively short flight...that could have solved the problem....


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## RSG

fairviewroad said:


> It's so incredibly hard to imagine why people would think that flying would be a better choice to get from Chicago to Louisville. :huh:


There just aren't many ways to get from Chicago to Louisville, other than via commercial airline, currently. I’ve heard some say they could have put the deadhead crew on Greyhound. But no matter how much one may like Greyhound, they don’t operate between CHI & LVL. Megabus does, but then you’re dealing with the Spirit/Allegiant Air of the bus world, along with the customer service record of United. Another commentary on the state of our interior transportation system.



MikefromCrete said:


> Oscar Munoz, United's CEO, is a former high honcho at CSX. Lousily run railroad, lousily run airline.


Thanks for that tidbit; it might explain why the company headed by this person seems to view revenue passengers as ‘freight that talks’.



seat38a said:


> Chey said:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people have a past. What's that got to do with what happened? Did they access his criminal history before they ejected him? Are our pasts now subject to airline employee scrutiny?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the world is up in arms about the "Poor Sweet Doctor" who got a beatdown for not listening to the cops. That poor sweet doctor is a convicted felon and contributing to the drug addiction problem of Appalachia taking money and sex as payment. My point? EVERYONE is jumping to conclusions. Do we even know what the doctor said to the cops??? No one seems to have caught that on camera.
Click to expand...

In regards to his prior offenses, the pharmaceuticals in question were shared between two individuals (including himself) and were not sold for money. This is probably why his medical license was restored on a limited basis starting in 2015. Most state medical licensing boards take a dim view of narcotics offenses generally and are unwilling to allow someone to continue the practice of medicine who could be a danger to the general public.

As of today, yes, we *do* know what Dr Dao said to the DOA officers, as _People_ magazine is out with a story from another eyewitness who was recording the lead-up to the extraction. The latest video shows that he responded to the officers as previously reported and stated his need to return to Louisville that night and that he would go to jail if he had to.



Bob Dylan said:


> Hopefully this man has a crackerjack lawyer and will enjoy his new life as a wealthy airline owner!


As a matter of fact, he has two of them, both from Chicago; one of whom specializes in aviation law. On Wednesday, actions were filed in Cook County Court requesting an injunction against UA which seeks to preserve all communications as it relates to the incident.


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## Chatter163

https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress.com/2017/04/11/i-know-youre-mad-at-united-but-thoughts-from-a-pilot-wife-about-flight-3411/

A much calmer, and more rational consideration.


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## XHRTSP

railiner said:


> So...the whole thing was caused because they couldn't get one more booked passenger to deplane for the deadhead crew, right? I am wondering if they could have just had one of the deadheading pilots occupy the cockpit jump seat for the relatively short flight...that could have solved the problem....


That is within the realm of possibilities. My crew once needed a last minute deadhead leg on a Q400, there were four of us and only three open seats. The gate agent asked if one of us could take the cockpit jumpseat, we said yes, the captain said it was fine, so it worked out beautifully. This may or may not have been a possibility on the flight to SDF.


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## XHRTSP

Last month I deadheaded from CDG to LGG on the train. It was nice. We need those options here.


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## fairviewroad

RSG said:


> I’ve heard some say they could have put the deadhead crew on Greyhound. But no matter how much one may like Greyhound, they don’t operate between CHI & LVL. Megabus does, but then you’re dealing with the Spirit/Allegiant Air of the bus world, along with the customer service record of United. Another commentary on the state of our interior transportation system.


Taking a bus might not have been possible depending on the timing of things...there may not have been a scheduled departure that would have gotten the crew there in time. If they were to travel by land, it would have likely been more practical to hire a car/van service and have someone drive them down there. The question would be whether they got to Louisville in time to have their required rest period before the morning flight. (I don't know what counts as a rest period...but I doubt riding in a van would count.)


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## jis

Then there is the issue of Union contract too.


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## caravanman

Everyone else seems to be at fault, why not attack the trade unions too?

Ed.


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## MikefromCrete

They should have just chartered a private plane. In the long run, it would have been a lot cheaper. This lawsuit will cost United millions -- and the city of Chicago will have to ante up some cash too.


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## jis

caravanman said:


> Everyone else seems to be at fault, why not attack the trade unions too?


The issue is that Union contracts apparently prevent using road based solutions effectively


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## A Voice

RSG said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's so incredibly hard to imagine why people would think that flying would be a better choice to get from Chicago to Louisville. :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> There just aren't many ways to get from Chicago to Louisville, other than via commercial airline, currently. I’ve heard some say they could have put the deadhead crew on Greyhound. But no matter how much one may like Greyhound, they don’t operate between CHI & LVL. Megabus does, but then you’re dealing with the Spirit/Allegiant Air of the bus world, along with the customer service record of United. Another commentary on the state of our interior transportation system.
Click to expand...

There is still a lot more about this incident that we don't know compared to what has been reported. To get a crew to Louisville it is difficult to determine just what all the options were; We do know there were roads. It would have been possible for a van driver (or similar) to just drive the crew members down to Louisville (though its likely there was no provision or preparation for that). That might have affected rest periods, but it wouldn't be the first time those of us on this forum would have heard of a certain transportation company dispatching a train late for lack of available rested operating crew.

Or perhaps the crew could have been ferried to an alternate airport and then transfer on to Louisville (Nashville, Atlanta, etc.). And, of course, more generous compensation could have been offered until you had some takers. Point is, United wasn't looking for alternatives; It didn't think it needed to. Why spend extra money and go to any trouble when you can just inconvenience four passengers, which solves _your_ problem, get your shift over and go home?


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## caravanman

jis said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone else seems to be at fault, why not attack the trade unions too?
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is that Union contracts apparently prevent using road based solutions effectively
Click to expand...

Mostly wealthy business employers don't give much away free to employees, and unions have often had to fight hard for even safe working practices, let alone fair remuneration. Nowadays there are many "zero hours" "work only when we want you" and similar practices which undermine the hard fought for union deals. I am on high alert to defend unions. Maybe private jets could be hired instead from within the CEO's muli million $ pay package...?

Ed.


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## Bob Dylan

Im with Ed on defending the Unions.The fault is totally with United's Suits,United ground,employees and thuggish Chicago cops!

Bet Uniteds Execs don't take a pay cut or loose their bonuses even though this fiasco will cost then multiple millions.

A total disgrace! Tell United to fly the unfriendly skies without you!


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## XHRTSP

jis said:


> The issue is that Union contracts apparently prevent using road based solutions effectively


Where did you hear this? I deadhead in vans all the damn time. Spending four hours on the autobahn going from RMS to BRU or AMS is pretty common. If you have a passage from the relevant contract, I'd be interested to see it. They are all available online.
But these van rides (called 'limos' in industry jargon) take time to set up, same with charter flights. It is most likely the case the deadheading crew would not have had the legally required rest time to operate their assignment out of SDF. There's no getting around fact that these deadheads are an inconvenient but necessary part of keeping the planes moving. United cannot afford to cancel a 70 passenger flight (really two flights totalling 140 passengers since cancelling one in many cases means cancelling the next too) over 4 people.


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## saxman

All this talk about deadheading the crew by different means...it would never ever happen for that long of a drive and nor would United or any other airline charter a plane. The only time a crew might be taxied or limo'd somewhere would be relatively short distances. ORD-MKE, ORD-South Bend. LAX-ONT or Palm Springs. Maybe even San Diego. But even then using a limo/car service is really only a last resort. Since deadheading is a normal daily occurrence putting the crew on a 5 hour bus ride wouldn't even be considered just because one guy isn't giving up his seat. Chartering a plane would be so far outside the realm of possibility too. It'd be like Amtrak chartering someones private rail car to deadhead their staff on.

Video has surfaced of the Doctor and the police before the 30 seconds of the famed video everyone else saw. While he's not shouting at the top of his lungs, he does say that he would rather be dragged off the plane and thrown in jail.


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## XHRTSP

A Voice said:


> Why spend extra money and go to any trouble when you can just inconvenience four passengers, which solves _your_ problem, get your shift over and go home?


That was the most fustrating thing about flying for United Express. United would cut corner after corner after corner over pennies here and pennies there in their race to the bottom. Corporate took no real interest in customer service, their work force, or their brand. They let go thousands of their people (good union jobs) and replaced them with lowest bidder contractors. In many places the planes are being operated by pilots being paid less than bus drivers and flight attendants who live at home and qualify for food stamps. Dispatchers and schedulers managing these flights are inexperienced and earn next to nothing. Turnover is high. Ground crews are contractors who make minimum wage, same with the baggage handlers. This isn't just small airports like Detroit or Cincy, but hubs like Denver. This is bad enough on good fair weather days when everything is running smoothly, but on you're typical summer thunderstorm day when everything goes to hell, that lack of experienced staff with actually company pride really shows.


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## Bob Dylan

Looks like our airline pilot members have had different deadhead expierences based on International vs. US Operations.


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## XHRTSP

The long ground deadheads in Europe are necessary sometimes as we fly into military or cargo centric airports. There are no commercial flights out of RMS, and limited options out of places like XCR and LEJ.

We do limo around the states sometimes, though usually again in and out of military airfields. SMF-SUU, PHL-WRI are pretty common pairings. Once I had to get from JFK to DOV, so I took LIRR to NYP, then Acela to WIL, then a limo the rest of the way. I did DTW-CVG via rental car once due to it being a last minute thing and there were no direct flights available.

I work in the mostly non scheduled cargo world, so my experiences are going to be different from saxman's.


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## XHRTSP

To add, I never once limo'ed while working in the pax world. Once I needed to deadhead from MCI to STL to work a rare (for me) Delta Connection flight. Even though it made since to put me on Southwest direct or Amtrak, that would have cost the company money, while using a seat on Delta was free and if I bumped a passenger or two it's not their problem. So I spent all day doing MCI-ATL-STL instead.


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## railiner

So airlines would never charter a plane to deadhead a crew needed urgently somewhere? That is interesting.

I can tell an ironic spin on that...

Back in the early '70's, I was dispatching for Continental Trailways bus in Denver. We had a four bus charter for the Englewood, Co. HS band, on a roundtrip to Portland, Or. Due to a monumental dispatching error, (not by me!), we had neglected to set up four relief drivers in Ogden, Ut. for the return trip. When the error was discovered (the lead driver called us), we had to scramble to find a solution. The Salt Lake City extra board was totally depleted and could not help us.

The driver's could stretch another few hours to reach Rock Springs, Wy. We chartered a business turbo prop to get four relief driver's from Denver to Rock Springs to relieve the charter, without much of a delay. The alternative would be trying to find hotels to accommodate four busloads of band members, and chaperones along with meal expenses, possible refund of the entire charter charges, and huge public relations nightmare in the local press....


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## XHRTSP

There was no point in chartering a flight as it would most likely have taken hours to set up. Same thing with chartering a van. Nevermind that these unscheduled deadheads occur quite often. United cannot afford to have a bunch of Lears sitting alert at their hubs for everytime these types of situations arise.

My cargo airline has a sibling charter airline and we have on rare ocassions moved crew using their jets. These moves were planned well enough in advance. That's been very very rare.

The regional I use to fly for, at one point used a very unorthodox approach to deadheading. Back during the big polar vortex of 2013, when everything ground to a halt, we had crew stranded all over the place and it was a collossal mess. The company pulled a plane from the hanger, and flew it all around the midwest and east coast picking up crew and repositioning them. They essentially chartered their own jet. Once again, this was rare, planned well in advance, and under a most extreme of circumstances.


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## caravanman

No one actually expects an airline to charted a jet to move crew around, or to cancel 2 plane flights or drive their crews hundreds of miles in a "limo", but nor do we expect to be evicted from our seat because of the airlines naked greed.

I would expect that out of a plane seating hundreds of passengers, airlines could "block out" 4 or 5 seats on all flights for crew emergency transfers.

Yes, it "costs" to do this, but it also costs to compensate passengers with bribes to vacate those seats.

No crew to move? Maybe sell those off at a last minute standby discount.

Anyway, back to train land at zero altitude... 

Ed.


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## XHRTSP

caravanman said:


> Yes, it "costs" to do this, but it also costs to compensate passengers with bribes to vacate those seats.


The difference in cost between those two courses of action is *massive*. Any airline that did that (unilaterally, as opposed to federal industry mandate) would go under within a matter of months.


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## CHamilton

Let Richard Branson kill United Airlines

The Reason Foundation is not a friend of Amtrak, to be sure, but this is an interesting viewpoint on airline competition.


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## jis

And Richard Branson can barely keep his own airline out of bankruptcy in the more lucrative international market, let alone take on another airline in the crazy US market. He has a reputation bigger than reality in the minds of many. He recently could not come up with the money to save his own brand in the US market.


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## Bob Dylan

Richard Branson, the Donald Trump of the Transportation Industry?


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## Devil's Advocate

XHRTSP said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it "costs" to do this, but it also costs to compensate passengers with bribes to vacate those seats.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference in cost between those two courses of action is *massive*. Any airline that did that (unilaterally, as opposed to federal industry mandate) would go under within a matter of months.
Click to expand...

 In the US it's far cheaper to casually berate or even beat your customers into submission. If things get really bad you can simply pay off the tiny handful of plaintiffs that have a viable chance to prevail in court. So long as every US airline is willing to play the same game there's not much that consumers can do about it on their own. Our government _could_ do something about it, but anyone who thinks our fearless leader has a problem with people being beat-up for refusing to leave must be living under rock.









jis said:


> And Richard Branson can barely keep his own airline out of bankruptcy in the more lucrative international market, let alone take on another airline in the crazy US market. He has a reputation bigger than reality in the minds of many. He recently could not come up with the money to save his own brand in the US market.


Nearly every private airline has struggled to maintain solvency in the face of new multilaterals, exaggerated emotional fears, mind numbing security theater, fickle passengers, and general transportation market adversity. Not that many airlines (outside the US) seem to struggle with explaining why they had to beat up their own passengers on a random Sunday.



Bob Dylan said:


> Richard Branson, the Donald Trump of the Transportation Industry?


Doesn't sound like they have much in common other than being (in)famous businessmen...



Richard Branson said:


> Some years ago, Mr Trump invited me to lunch for a one-to-one meeting at his apartment in Manhattan. We had not met before and I accepted. Even before the starters arrived he began telling me about how he had asked a number of people for help after his latest bankruptcy and how five of them were unwilling to help. He told me he was going to spend the rest of his life destroying these five people...I was baffled why he had invited me to lunch solely to tell me this. For a moment, I even wondered if he was going to ask me for financial help. If he had, I would have become the sixth person on his list!


Link: https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/meeting-donald-trump


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## B757Guy

XHRTSP said:


> To add, I never once limo'ed while working in the pax world. Once I needed to deadhead from MCI to STL to work a rare (for me) Delta Connection flight. Even though it made since to put me on Southwest direct or Amtrak, that would have cost the company money, while using a seat on Delta was free and if I bumped a passenger or two it's not their problem. So I spent all day doing MCI-ATL-STL instead.


You get limos!!?? Man, I'm lucky the crew van shows up half the time!


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## XHRTSP

B757Guy said:


> You get limos!!?? Man, I'm lucky the crew van shows up half the time!


The company that shuttles us between SUU and SMF/SFO/OAK/SJC has an actual stretch limo in their fleet, which we get every now and then. The bar is always conspicuously un stocked though. :-(


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## B757Guy

XHRTSP said:


> B757Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You get limos!!?? Man, I'm lucky the crew van shows up half the time!
> 
> 
> 
> The company that shuttles us between SUU and SMF/SFO/OAK/SJC has an actual stretch limo in their fleet, which we get every now and then. The bar is always conspicuously un stocked though. :-(
> LOL, probably a good thing!
Click to expand...


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## railiner

XHRTSP said:


> There was no point in chartering a flight as it would most likely have taken hours to set up..


Not in our case...we set it up in about an hour or so, and the flight only took a little over an hour in a Beech King Air...the relief driver's were there in about the same time it took the buses to get from Ogden to Rock Springs...


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## XHRTSP

Glad you made it work, but in today's day and age you may not have been so lucky. The NetJets responce time for example is 4-10 hours.


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