# Sunset Limited and Phoenix



## chertling

I found this on Wikipedia, so it can't be deemed reliable... but does anyone know whether the statement below is true?



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunset_Limited
> On June 2, 1996, the Sunset Limited was rerouted to a more southerly route between Tucson, Arizona, and Yuma, Arizona, bypassing Phoenix, Arizona, in order to accommodate the Union Pacific Railroad's desire to abandon a portion of its Phoenix-to-Yuma "West Line". As of early 2006, however, the line had not yet been abandoned, and construction activities suggested that Union Pacific might reopen the line.


Is the "West Line" still in operable condition? Is there any chance of it being returned to operation, thus giving Amtrak the option of returning to Phoenix?


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## the_traveler

I think it still is in operation, but IIRC the speeds on that stretch were very slow. And the station in Phoenix is now in private hands - and IIRC used as an office.

I personally wouldn't count on it.


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## George Harris

This discussion comes up every few months. Go back to a thread in mid 2008 titled The Sun Never Sets in Phoenix.

I said this at that time:

Other than the date of change, which I really don't know the rest is somewhat less than accurate, which seems to be the norm for Wiki.

The southern line, which UP calls the Gila subdivision was the original Southern Paciifc mainline. The loop through Phoenix was built much later, in the 1920's I think, and was always at best a secondary main and built primarily so that through passenger trains could serve Phoenix. It ran from Wellton at milepost 770.7 (zero at San Francisco) to Picacho. At Picacho the milepost is 979.7 on the Phoenix line but only 936.7 via the main through Maricopa. Thus, the route is 166.0 miles on the main and 209.0 miles through Phoenix, an additional distance of 43.0 miles. Phoenix yard is at milepost 907.0, so this 209 mile length represents 137.3 miles wst of Phoenix with almost nothing there and 72.7 miles west of Phoenix through Tempe and a few other places.

The Phoenix line was all jointed rail with an automatic block signal system with semaphores. Generally the passenger train speed limit was 60 mph, although some parts east of Phoenix allowed 70 mph. Pictures I have seen of the line west show the rail as being 113 lb, a section unique to the SP and long obsolete and out of production. By the early 90's this line was needing major rail relay, major tie replacement, and signal system upgrades. The decision was make to concetrate on the 70 miles east of Phoenix rather than attempt to keep the entire 209 miles up for 60 mph service.

To the best of my knowledge the track is all still in place, but not all in service, and the signal system is likewise all in place, but likely not functional for most or the line west.

With the same weasel words, here is the current status of the line, going from west to east.

mp 770.7 to 802.8: "Roll Industrial Lead" 20 mph - restricted speed

mp 802.8 to 854.0: Out of service

mp 854.0 to 904.8: 25 mph - may have slow orders to less

mp 904.8 to 905.6: 20 mph

mp 905.6 to 906.7: 15 mph

mp 906.7 to 907.9: 20 mph

mp 907.9 to 913.6: 25 mph

mp 913.6 to 916.5: 20 mph

mp 916.5 to 920.8: 40 mph

mp 920.8 to 922.0: 25 mph

mp 922.0 to 924.2: 40 mph

mp 924.2 to 957.0: 60 mph

mp 957.0 to 963.5: 40 mph

mp 963.5 to 975.6: 60 mph

mp 975.6 to 979.3: 45 mph

mp 979.3 to 979.7: 25 mph

Wild guess: about $200 to $300 million to get the Phoenix line west to the point that it could carry the Sunset at 60 mph or 79 mph. (The difference in cost for getting it in condition for 60 mph and for 79 mph would be next to nothing.) There is no way that it makes sense for Amtrak or the state of Arizona to spend that kind of money for a three times a week train, and for sure it makes no sense for UP to spend it. The additional 43 miles and going through a major urban area is why it also make no sense for UP to increase the Sunset Route capacity by upgrading the Phoenix line for part of a directional running system with the Gila line instead of adding a second main along a line through a mostly unpopulated desert. Now, if it was decided to operate multiple passenger trains per day between Arizona and Los Angeles, that could change the picture.


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## birdy

Yeah, like put HSR between the #1 and #5 cities in the U.S. knocking out about 30 737 flights per day.


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## printman2000

birdy said:


> Yeah, like put HSR between the #1 and #5 cities in the U.S. knocking out about 30 737 flights per day.


That would be a mighty long HSR line going from New York City to Phoenix. 

I would guess, though, you are referring to LA and Phoenix. LA would be the #2 if you are referring to population.


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## delvyrails

Does anyone know what the Arizona state rail plan has in mind for this line?


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## henryj

delvyrails said:


> Does anyone know what the Arizona state rail plan has in mind for this line?


Go here:

http://mpd.azdot.gov/transit/RailroadStudies.asp


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## DaveKCMO

pretty sure phoenix's union station belongs to KC's own Sprint. i recall reading an article that there was interest in returning it to its former use (for commuter rail?).


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## fredmcain

What's the latest update on this? Back in March or April Amtrak published a map showing proposed new routes in light blue. The West Phoenix Line was included.

Now that Biden's "infrastructure" bill has passed, the funds might be there to do this. But now all they're talking about is a new service between Tucson and the Salt River Valley. So, what the heck? 

I have sent e-mails to both the rail advocacy group "All Aboard Arizona" and the Rail Passenger Association but my e-mails have not been answered.

Anybody on our group have any news about this? Please, please PLEASE! Let's avoid opinions on whether or not Amtrak ought to return to Phoenix. Opinions are fine but I'm looking for news !

Regards,
Fred M. Cain


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## PaTrainFan

fredmcain said:


> What's the latest update on this? Back in March or April Amtrak published a map showing proposed new routes in light blue. The West Phoenix Line was included.
> 
> Now that Biden's "infrastructure" bill has passed, the funds might be there to do this. But now all they're talking about is a new service between Tucson and the Salt River Valley. So, what the heck?
> 
> I have sent e-mails to both the rail advocacy group "All Aboard Arizona" and the Rail Passenger Association but my e-mails have not been answered.
> 
> Anybody on our group have any news about this? Please, please PLEASE! Let's avoid opinions on whether or not Amtrak ought to return to Phoenix. Opinions are fine but I'm looking for news !
> 
> Regards,
> Fred M. Cain


 WAAAY too early. The bill just passed!


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## jis

fredmcain said:


> What's the latest update on this? Back in March or April Amtrak published a map showing proposed new routes in light blue. The West Phoenix Line was included.


Don't get too excited. That is a 35 year plan 



> Now that Biden's "infrastructure" bill has passed, the funds might be there to do this. But now all they're talking about is a new service between Tucson and the Salt River Valley. So, what the heck?
> 
> I have sent e-mails to both the rail advocacy group "All Aboard Arizona" and the Rail Passenger Association but my e-mails have not been answered.
> 
> Anybody on our group have any news about this? Please, please PLEASE! Let's avoid opinions on whether or not Amtrak ought to return to Phoenix. Opinions are fine but I'm looking for news !


No news so far. AFAIK, even RPA has no news on this specific one other than it is part of the 35 year plan.


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## MikefromCrete

Tucson-Phoenix is low hanging fruit. Restoring the line west of Phoenix is a lot of money and effort.


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## NES28

The FRA SW Regional Plan (2014, available on the FRA website) identified LA-Phoenix as a potential high-speed rail route (with frequent service taking 3.5 hours and probably profitable to operate). It could serve Palm Springs and the Coachella Valley enroute. Presumably, it would parallel I-10 most of the way, bypassing Yuma. West of the Inland Empire it could share track with the now-planned Brightline route and CA HSR ph 2 San Diego route.


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## fredmcain

MikefromCrete said:


> Tucson-Phoenix is low hanging fruit. Restoring the line west of Phoenix is a lot of money and effort.



Mike,

Indeed, reviving the line west of Phoenix would cost quite a bit of money but probably not a LOT of money. My hunch has been for years that the UP kinda wants the line revived too but they don't want to foot the entire bill for it.

Reviving the line is really kind of a no-brainer. It shouldn't have to take that long nor be astronomically expensive. The root of the problem may be politics.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain


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## west point

Let whom ever update the line west of Phoenix. Then if UP uses it for any reason UP will have to pay a mileage and tonnage charge for each car and loco.


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## fredmcain

west point said:


> Let whom ever update the line west of Phoenix. Then if UP uses it for any reason UP will have to pay a mileage and tonnage charge for each car and loco.



West Point,

Not sure if the UP would agree to that. After all, they OWN the line so they can call the shots right now. Now, they could SELL the line either to some jurisdiction under the Arizona DOT or possibly directly to Amtrak, but I haven't been able to find any news on that at all.

I actually sent an e-mail to the UP about the line about a year or two ago. I was surprised that they responded at all but respond they did. Their response was as clear as mud.

It went something like, "We have no plans to return the Wellton branch to service but neither do we have any plans of abandon it. We intend to keep the line for possible future developments". Not sure what they have in mind but they must have something in mind. Whatever it is, they won't tell us. It seems like they want to keep the option open for repairing and reviving the line but have no intentions of doing that in the near term.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain


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## CCC1007

fredmcain said:


> West Point,
> 
> Not sure if the UP would agree to that. After all, they OWN the line so they can call the shots right now. Now, they could SELL the line either to some jurisdiction under the Arizona DOT or possibly directly to Amtrak, but I haven't been able to find any news on that at all.
> 
> I actually sent an e-mail to the UP about the line about a year or two ago. I was surprised that they responded at all but respond they did. Their response was as clear as mud.
> 
> It went something like, "We have no plans to return the Wellton branch to service but neither do we have any plans of abandon it. We intend to keep the line for possible future developments". Not sure what they have in mind but they must have something in mind. Whatever it is, they won't tell us. It seems like they want to keep the option open for repairing and reviving the line but have no intentions of doing that in the near term.
> 
> Regards,
> Fred M. Cain


Sounds like the Helena Subdivision of the BNSF Railway...


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## George Harris

There is a way to get UP to pay for the benefit from getting the use of the line back. Simply put, Whoever foots the cost of the upgrade does so without buying it but with a contract with UP for them to pay a pay per ton fee. This would be somewhat similar in concept to the old railroad practice for installing a turnout for an industry track. The industry paid for it on the front end and a reduction in charge for shipping by the railroad given until the cost was covered.

By the way, the reinstatement to service would not be cheap. You would be talking a 100% renewal of rail, ties, and about 12 inches of new ballast for the track, plus a complete new signal system, plus probably quite a bit of bridge work, although given the terrain the bridge work would probably not be that great.

Again, this whole scenario makes no sense for a three times per week train. If we get to multiple trains per day Phoenix to LA that would change the picture, but in that case costs for reinstating this line would be small potatoes compared to the total.


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## me_little_me

west point said:


> Let whom ever update the line west of Phoenix. Then if UP uses it for any reason UP will have to pay a mileage and tonnage charge for each car and loco.


Since UP owns it, someone would have to buy it. Since it is in bad shape and needs rebuilding, taking it by eminent domain should result in pay much less for it than if UP were using it. Of course their lawyers would say it's worth a lot more - then discard the taking and bill them higher taxes.


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## fredmcain

George Harris said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> Again, this whole scenario makes no sense for a three times per week train. If we get to multiple trains per day Phoenix to LA that would change the picture, but in that case costs for reinstating this line would be small potatoes compared to the total.



George,

You are mostly correct in that upgrading the line to modern (i.e. 79MPH) standards would not be cost effective for a thrice weekly train. In fact, if the Sunset would run daily, such an investment would still be somewhat questionable.

However, my theory is and always has been, that the Sunset would not be the only train on the line. My hunch is that the UP would like to have the route revived in order to provide expedited freight service between the greater Phoenix area and the west coast.

The distance between Phoenix and L.A. is such that rail has only a minimal advantage (at best) over trucking. However, that all-rail advantage greatly increases with distance especially between SeaTac and Phoenix.

There has been some inconclusive evidence that the UP had begun reopening the line back around 2013, I think it was. The work began in Phoenix and they worked their way west replacing SP's old signals and made some track improvements as well. They worked all the way west to around Arlington where the work was abruptly stopped for some reason. I have no idea why. 

Another puzzle is that the UP has maintained and even improved the automatic block signal system from Phoenix to Arlington. This makes NO sense for the very limited local freight traffic on the line.

So, a certain amount of this is a mystery. However, I'll stick with my original theory. The UP wants the line reopened but does not want to foot the entire bill. That's the only explanation I can think of. If the UP were open the line, moving the Sunset Ltd back to Phoenix would be fairly simple. The few residents of Maricopa would very likely b____ about losing their station stop but I can't see that as a deal killer.

I did, however, receive a B.S. response back from the Arizona DOT yesterday. They stated the same thing that some of you on this list have said. It's too soon to know where Biden's infrastructure money is going to be used.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain


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## Willbridge

The UP is sitting on other semi-abandoned segments besides Phoenix-West. As long as they are paying dividends that's not a problem if another entity wants to negotiate with them. The danger is if they run into some financial problem and/or get a president who wants to show Wall Street some radical action. Then these residual pieces will be disposed of while local and state governments dither.


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## George Harris

fredmcain said:


> The distance between Phoenix and L.A. is such that rail has only a minimal advantage (at best) over trucking. However, that all-rail advantage greatly increases with distance especially between SeaTac and Phoenix.
> 
> There has been some inconclusive evidence that the UP had begun reopening the line back around 2013, I think it was. The work began in Phoenix and they worked their way west replacing SP's old signals and made some track improvements as well. They worked all the way west to around Arlington where the work was abruptly stopped for some reason. I have no idea why.
> 
> Another puzzle is that the UP has maintained and even improved the automatic block signal system from Phoenix to Arlington. This makes NO sense for the very limited local freight traffic on the line.


"Improving the signal system"!! That truly is a surprise. Only reason I can think of to keep it at all is to avoid jumping through the legal hoops necessary to turn it off. The additional distance required to go to go from LA to Picacho and then back to Phoenix would not be a deal breaker competitively with trucks. We are looking at relative costs, not competitive times. Fuel saving would probably not make a sufficient cost issue unless the traffic volume is extremely high, and given switching times , you are not going to be time-competitive with trucking either way.


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## George Harris

Mileage locations for information: 
Source of mileage information, 2007 UPRR employee timetable, publicly accessible.
Assuming passenger stations unchanged from SP locations.
Gila Subdivision
732.7 Yuma Passenger Station (from 1956 SP ETT)
770.0 Wellton Jct (from 1956 SP ETT)
770.8 Wellton (end double track in 2007 ETT)
897.7 Maricopa (east end siding - do not know station precise location of station)
936.7 Picacho
983.9 Tucson Passenger Station (from 1956 SP ETT)
986.6 Tucson Yard

Phoenix Subdivision
770.8 Wellton - this first part is called the Roll Industrial Lead - 20 mph, ABS in service with ignore it note
780.9 Roll
793.0 Growler - appears to be end of in-service track
802.8 "End main track" from Phoenix direction, but with note
Main Track out of service between MP 854.0 and MP 802.8
860.8 Arlington
906.0 Phoenix Passenger Station (from 1956 SP ETT)
907.0 Phoenix Yard
962.4 Coolidge (begin CTC)
979.7 Picacho - meet Gila Subdivision MP 936.7

There were some milepost equations on both lines, but none appeared to be large, so I did not attempt to work through the resultant revised length of line. The main point remains that the Gila line is 43 miles shorter than the route through Phoenix.


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## jruff001

fredmcain said:


> I did, however, receive a B.S. response back from the Arizona DOT yesterday. They stated the same thing that some of you on this list have said. It's too soon to know where Biden's infrastructure money is going to be used.


Why is that a BS response? The law was only signed two days ago.


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## neroden

The main problem in Arizona has been that the state government has never been in the hands of intercity passenger rail supporters. If that changes, many things become possible.


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## west point

George Harris said:


> The main point remains that the Gila line is 43 miles shorter than the route through Phoenix.



So that makes running thru PHX 1 - -1/2 hours longer depending on MAX speeds. Since line west of PHX mainly in boonies maybe 90 - 100 MAS 90 miles from Wellton - Arlington in an hour. 120 miles from Arlington - Picacho 40 mph + 10 minute station top 3:10 ! That does compare somewhat slower than present route that averages about 62 including MRC stop averages 65 MPH taking out MRC stop.


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## neroden

west point said:


> So that makes running thru PHX 1 - -1/2 hours longer depending on MAX speeds.



32 minutes longer at 79 mph, assuming station stop takes the same amount of time. This is nothing compared to real sources of delay on the route. The main issue is that it isn't worth maintaining that many miles of line to passenger standards for three-a-week, possibly not even for one-a-day. Several-a-day from Phoenix to LA would make it worthwhile.


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## fredmcain

west point said:


> So that makes running thru PHX 1 - -1/2 hours longer depending on MAX speeds. Since line west of PHX mainly in boonies maybe 90 - 100 MAS 90 miles from Wellton - Arlington in an hour. 120 miles from Arlington - Picacho 40 mph + 10 minute station top 3:10 ! That does compare somewhat slower than present route that averages about 62 including MRC stop averages 65 MPH taking out MRC stop.



One thing to remember, though, is that if the Sunset were to run daily again, running through Phoenix would very likely encounter less freight train interference between Wellton and Picacho as it did back in the old SP days.

If the line were fully revived, the UP would probably only run one daily road freight from Phoenix to Yuma perhaps as many as two at the very most. During peak periods, the Gila line can sometimes sport up to 40 trains a day.

I guess my pet peeve is that as a winter “snowbird” wanting to take the train to Phoenix, I have to detrain at Maricopa which is way, way out of town and try to find a ride or, the next option is to take the S.W. Chief and get off at Flagg. It would be somewhat easier to find ground transportation from there although that’s even further away from Phoenix than Maricopa is.

Surely, I am not the only potential passenger that has this dilemma. Restoration of a daily Sunset Limited with stops in Mesa, Tempe and Phoenix would probably also be good for the Salt River Valley community. How much benefit they would get out of that is questionable but I’m sure they’d derive some benefit.


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## fredmcain

neroden said:


> 32 minutes longer at 79 mph, assuming station stop takes the same amount of time. This is nothing compared to real sources of delay on the route. The main issue is that it isn't worth maintaining that many miles of line to passenger standards for three-a-week, possibly not even for one-a-day. Several-a-day from Phoenix to LA would make it worthwhile.



Neroden,

Well, the powers that be at Amtrak and in state and federal governments, have decided that they want to keep and maintain the line through Raton, Lamy & Albuquerque, NM. Or, at least for the foreseeable future. You might be able to argue that keeping that line is even more difficult to make a case for since it's so much longer, runs through difficult mountain terrain and has almost zero freight potential.

I believe but cannot prove that if the Phoenix sub were to be completely revived, the UP would benefit and make use of it. The BNSF, on the other hand, seems to have no interest in running through freights on the Raton line. If the Raton line were fully equipped with CTC and PTC throughout and much longer sidings, I think they might change their mind but a lot of rail enthusiasts have told me that they wouldn't.

So, there is at least some precedent there for the Phoenix line. The rebuilding of the Devils Lake Line in North Dakota was a similar situation. So, there is some precedent. I think the main obstacle is finding the political will and determination.


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## alanh

The main problem on the Raton line is steep grades. This requires more power and more fuel. This is obviously not a problem on the Phoenix subdivision, which has hardly any grades at all.

I do think UP wants to reactivate it, but is hoping the feds and/or Arizona will pay for it. The westernmost section of the Sunset line in Arizona is still single track.


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## me_little_me

alanh said:


> The main problem on the Raton line is steep grades. This requires more power and more fuel. This is obviously not a problem on the Phoenix subdivision, which has hardly any grades at all.
> 
> I do think UP wants to reactivate it, but is hoping the feds and/or Arizona will pay for it. The westernmost section of the Sunset line in Arizona is still single track.


Perfect reason for the government to take it using eminent domain. The selling price would be its value now rather than after it were fixed up and then any fixes by Arizona or the feds would benefit themselves, not UP which means they could then charge UP more for its use.


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## CCC1007

me_little_me said:


> Perfect reason for the government to take it using eminent domain. The selling price would be its value now rather than after it were fixed up and then any fixes by Arizona or the feds would benefit themselves, not UP which means they could then charge UP more for its use.


Before eminent domain should be started, can we ask UP what their price would be to purchase it without having to go through the courts? (Being nice usually gets better results than litigation in interpersonal relationships, so business transactions should be similar.)


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## me_little_me

CCC1007 said:


> Before eminent domain should be started, can we ask UP what their price would be to purchase it without having to go through the courts? (Being nice usually gets better results than litigation in interpersonal relationships, so business transactions should be similar.)


Generally the way it works is that the government notifies the owner that they want the property and make an offer. If the owner refuses to sell, they notify the owner that they are taking it by eminent domain and negotiate a price. If they can't come to an agreement, it goes to court and the judge decides based on each side's evidence of value.


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## west point

The reason IMO that it will take las thru that area. I believe that the bridge that burned there was quoted as a 30 MPH. Longer than your time is the time Arlington - the east side of Mesa. It is going to be much slower than 79.


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## neroden

fredmcain said:


> Neroden,
> 
> Well, the powers that be at Amtrak and in state and federal governments, have decided that they want to keep and maintain the line through Raton, Lamy & Albuquerque, NM. Or, at least for the foreseeable future. You might be able to argue that keeping that line is even more difficult to make a case for since it's so much longer, runs through difficult mountain terrain and has almost zero freight potential.



True. You do have a point there!

I'm on record as saying that rerouting the Southwest Chief through the much larger cities of Amarillo and Clovis would be an improvement! So you know my opinion. (And take the same amount of time, even accounting for going "up to Albuquerque and back". Though I do think if this happened it would be necessary to keep service to Garden City, Dodge City, etc. -- possibly on a Denver-Wichita route.)

I don't know why New Mexico was willing to go to bat for the absolutely miniscule number of passengers along the Raton Pass route, while Arizona wasn't willing to go to bat for PHOENIX, one of the biggest cities in the country. All I can come up with is that New Mexico had Democrats in government at the relevant time and Arizona had Republicans. No further ideas.

So maybe with a pro-rail government in Arizona, it would be possible to reactivate the Phoenix line for the Sunset Limited. I guess it all comes down to the attitude of the Arizona government and who gets into the governor's office and the state legislature.


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## Willbridge

neroden said:


> True. You do have a point there!
> 
> I'm on record as saying that rerouting the Southwest Chief through the much larger cities of Amarillo and Clovis would be an improvement! So you know my opinion. (And take the same amount of time, even accounting for going "up to Albuquerque and back". Though I do think if this happened it would be necessary to keep service to Garden City, Dodge City, etc. -- possibly on a Denver-Wichita route.)
> 
> I don't know why New Mexico was willing to go to bat for the absolutely miniscule number of passengers along the Raton Pass route, while Arizona wasn't willing to go to bat for PHOENIX, one of the biggest cities in the country. All I can come up with is that New Mexico had Democrats in government at the relevant time and Arizona had Republicans. No further ideas.
> 
> So maybe with a pro-rail government in Arizona, it would be possible to reactivate the Phoenix line for the Sunset Limited. I guess it all comes down to the attitude of the Arizona government and who gets into the governor's office and the state legislature.


The Raton Pass line is part of a studied north-south route between Denver and El Paso of interest in both states in addition to being part of a transcontinental route. So keeping service on it has longer range implications. From Amtrak's standpoint it also turned out that the cost of switching to the Texas route was greater than they had anticipated. From the BNSF's standpoint it keeps passenger trains out of the way.


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## George Harris

Raton Line: Even in its day as the premium Chicago to LA train the Super Chief ran on the Raton Line. It bypassed Topeka KS, but otherwise followed the present day passenger route. Given that the ATSF at that time had 6 through trains and the Super was marketed primarily to high end through passengers, (It was an extra fare train) if there were advantages to the Amarillo Route for passenger trains, it would have gone that way. Kansas and Colorado both want the train on its present route. When New Mexico bought the piece of the line being used by their Santa Fe to Albuquerque commuter service the ATSF, or was it BNSF by that time?, was willing to sell all the remaining line north out of Albuquerque up to the Colorado state line for next to nothing, but that did not happen. I do not recall why.

Phoenix Line: Aside from being longer than the Clovis line through Maricopa, it is slower with numerous speed constraints in the portion east of Phoenix. I have a 2007 UPRR employee timetable for that area and calculated minimum run times therefrom. Emphasis on minimum. The real world times will be longer because there is no allowances for meets or any slack in these times. For the Phoenix line, I assumed that the entire length west of Phoenix itself would be brought up to Class 4 (80p/60f) standards and be given a 79 mph speed limit. For the line east of Phoenix, which is shown with a maximum speed limit of 60 mph for all trains, but a note that UP passenger trains are allowed 70 mph if there is no lesser (that 60 mph) limit in place, I assumed that 60 mph lengths could be 79 mph, 40 mph lengths could be 50 mph and all lesser limits could be at least 5 mph more than current limits. The Phoenix line times could be significantly understated, as in addition to the lack of any allowances for meets or slack in time, it is highly unlikely there would be zero less than 79 mph restrictions in the line west of Phoenix, plus some of the lower speed limits east of Phoenix could have to remain as-is and not all the 60 mph could be raised to 79 mph. These times do not include standing time at stops. Having said all this, I came up with Wellton to Picacho times of:

via Maricopa: 2 hours 15 minutes, averaging 73.8 mph over 165.9 miles
via Phoenix: 3 hours 8 minutes, averaging 66.8 mph over 208.9 miles

Thus, the time penalty would be 53 minutes, probably more.


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## neroden

The state of New Mexico agreed to purchase the line from Lamy to the Colorado state line under a Democratic governor (Bill Richardson), and the subsequent Republican governor (Susana Martinez) reneged on the deal. So that is what happened there. (The agreed purchase price was $5 million. I was furious when Martinez reneged on the deal.)

The advantage to going through Amarillo is... being able to go to Amarillo, which is a large city. Obviously in the days of the ATSF railroad, you had both local and express trains, and the Raton route is arguably better for express trains, but they had trains to Amarillo. We don't today. I have to think that being able to go to Amarillo is of great value.

Regarding the Phoenix line: for passengers *going to Phoenix*. since it easily takes an hour to get from Maricopa to Phoenix, it would clearly be faster to go via the Phoenix line. For through passengers expressing past Phoenix, yes, the Maricopa line is faster.

This is one of the odd consequences of the disorderly way in which the rail system in the US was dismantled starting in the 1960s. Whether the faster express route which bypassed intermediate population was kept, or the slower route with more on-line population was kept, was somewhat arbitrary; sometimes both were lost, but it was rare that both were retained.

Obviously having both is desirable, but if I were to prioritize one, I always prioritize the one which serves more people.


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## west point

Of course the long range answer is if there is ever another train on the SW Chief route for this section just run it thru Amarillo; Amtrak might have another end points for another train ?.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

neroden said:


> The advantage to going through Amarillo is... being able to go to Amarillo, which is a large city. Obviously in the days of the ATSF railroad, you had both local and express trains, and the Raton route is arguably better for express trains, but they had trains to Amarillo. We don't today. I have to think that being able to go to Amarillo is of great value


Interesting. Seems like Amarillo has grown since I was stationed at nearby Clovis in the early 70s. Back them we usually drove to Lubbock to shop as it had a mall which Amarillo did not. 

Of course with Phoenix we are talking an order of magnitude greater. Cities of that size should have direct service, no question.


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## neroden

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Interesting. Seems like Amarillo has grown since I was stationed at nearby Clovis in the early 70s. Back them we usually drove to Lubbock to shop as it had a mall which Amarillo did not.


It did grow -- it was a lot smaller in the 1970s. The city was 127K in 1970, 199K now. The metro area is 266K now (I can't find the 1970 metro-area population). Lubbock County is still somewhat larger at 311K.



> Of course with Phoenix we are talking an order of magnitude greater. Cities of that size should have direct service, no question.


----------



## fredmcain

I now have somewhat of an update on this. Late Friday, I received a newsletter from the “All Aboard Arizona” rail advocacy group. Not sure why since I have paid no dues for about two years.

Anyhow, the newsletter was almost entirely on the subject of the Sunset Limited. The plans to move the Sunset Limited back to Phoenix AND to make it daily are BOTH on track. They believe they will now get the funding to do this. However, no timeline was given.

They stated that plans to do this have been “upgraded from pie-in-the-sky to an uphill battle”. They are hoping that people of interest will contact their state reps and urge them to support this.

This puts me at somewhat of a disadvantage since I am no longer a resident of Arizona after having relocated to the Upper Midwest.

I am optimistic that it will happen but at my age (69) it will probably not happen soon enough for me to derive any real benefit from it.


----------



## alanh

Looking at a 1995 timetable, Tucson to Yuma via Phoenix was 6:53. From the 2020 timetable, it was 4:14, a 2:39 difference.

It's pretty much a given that the west line will need a full rehab. They're not going to run it at 30mph (class 2) or less.


----------



## toddinde

Great comments! If you are interested in rail passenger service in Arizona and getting the Sunset Limited back to Phoenix, please consider attending in person or via Zoom All Aboard Arizona’s Passenger Rail Summit in Tucson on December 4th. We will be discussing this issue along with an excellent presentation on the West Line/Welton Cutoff. It’s going to be a great program with lots of speakers. You can register on Eventbrite or on the All Aboard Arizona website. Rehabbing the West Line is not a huge expense. Ten years ago, it was evaluated to cost about $4 million for 60 mph. That’s not acceptable for today, and higher speeds would be desirable. It is correct that moving the Sunset off the Sunset Route for those miles would be advantageous to the UP. The corridor plan for the Sun Corridor has a third main from Tucson to Picacho Junction. All of this is very doable. Again, if you want to get the latest on this come to the Summit on 4 December.


----------



## fredmcain

toddinde said:


> Great comments! If you are interested in rail passenger service in Arizona and getting the Sunset Limited back to Phoenix, please consider attending in person or via Zoom All Aboard Arizona’s Passenger Rail Summit in Tucson on December 4th. We will be discussing this issue along with an excellent presentation on the West Line/Welton Cutoff. It’s going to be a great program with lots of speakers. You can register on Eventbrite or on the All Aboard Arizona website. Rehabbing the West Line is not a huge expense. Ten years ago, it was evaluated to cost about $4 million for 60 mph. That’s not acceptable for today, and higher speeds would be desirable. It is correct that moving the Sunset off the Sunset Route for those miles would be advantageous to the UP. The corridor plan for the Sun Corridor has a third main from Tucson to Picacho Junction. All of this is very doable. Again, if you want to get the latest on this come to the Summit on 4 December.



Todd,

I sure hope you see this e-mail, 'cause I have an issue with "All Aboard Arizona". I have sent a couple of e-mails looking for the status of the Wellton Branch and Sunset Limited - no response.

But what's worse, a couple of months ago I renewed my dues and the letter was returned by the post office as undeliverable. Huh? This is not, in my opinion, a way to look organized. It is my sincere hope that AAA can become more sensitive of the concerns of their dues paying members.

The Rail Passengers Association is as bad or worse. When Ross Capon was there, if I sent an e-mail, I ALWAYS got a response. He even talked to me on the telephone one time!

No more.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain


----------



## fredmcain

alanh said:


> Looking at a 1995 timetable, Tucson to Yuma via Phoenix was 6:53. From the 2020 timetable, it was 4:14, a 2:39 difference.
> 
> It's pretty much a given that the west line will need a full rehab. They're not going to run it at 30mph (class 2) or less.



The last time I rode over the line was in the summer of 1989. I was aboard a late-running eastbound Sunset Limited and it was already starting to get daylight as we clattered through the junction switch at Wellton. I took up residence in the last car looking out the back so I could observe the condition of the roadbed. I noted that the speed limit had largely been cut to 40-30 with some short sections of 60MPH running.

I was amazed to see that there were still a few active semaphore signals on the line!

One really curious development, Amtrak was changing crews and servicing the train at Tempe. Does anybody remember this? This made the stop at Tucson very brief. They told us that no one traveling on east should step off the train. (I did anyway to get one nice look at the Santa Catalina Mountains!)

So, this probably made the running time slower in 1995. I think that that if most of the line were upgraded to 79MPH standards with a stop in Phoenix and hopefully a second stop somewhere in the East Valley, that this would only be a few minutes longer than the running times on the Gila line. Especially with the lack of freight train interference in taken into account.


----------



## toddinde

fredmcain said:


> Todd,
> 
> I sure hope you see this e-mail, 'cause I have an issue with "All Aboard Arizona". I have sent a couple of e-mails looking for the status of the Wellton Branch and Sunset Limited - no response.
> 
> But what's worse, a couple of months ago I renewed my dues and the letter was returned by the post office as undeliverable. Huh? This is not, in my opinion, a way to look organized. It is my sincere hope that AAA can become more sensitive of the concerns of their dues paying members.
> 
> The Rail Passengers Association is as bad or worse. When Ross Capon was there, if I sent an e-mail, I ALWAYS got a response. He even talked to me on the telephone one time!
> 
> No more.
> 
> Regards,
> Fred M. Cain



Fred, while I am sorry for the issues you encountered, please keep a couple of things in mind. All Aboard Arizona is a small, non-profit that survives entirely on unpaid, volunteers, who literally pour their time, personal funds, and efforts into the organization. Many are elderly, or have had personal life situations that caused them to leave positions, and leads to a loss of institutional knowledge. We were also impacted, like the rest of the world, by COVID. Last year, was a tough one for us with turnover and new people picking up positions. That said, All Aboard AZ was heavily involved in raising money for the Daily Sunset Campaign which helped fund RPA’s IMPLAN studies, continued to get resolutions of support from local elected bodies, did a lot of media outreach including interviews on TV, radio and newspapers. We also started a quarterly newsletter which has lots of great info in it. We’ve worked closely with rail advocates in California and Texas to move the daily Sunset initiative forward. I am very, very proud of the progress we’ve made and what we’re doing. If you need to renew your membership, go to the website. It’s easy. We welcome our members to get more involved. All Aboard AZ is a good organization that is definitely moving the ball down the field, has the respect of local elected officials, and is making great progress.


----------



## toddinde

fredmcain said:


> The last time I rode over the line was in the summer of 1989. I was aboard a late-running eastbound Sunset Limited and it was already starting to get daylight as we clattered through the junction switch at Wellton. I took up residence in the last car looking out the back so I could observe the condition of the roadbed. I noted that the speed limit had largely been cut to 40-30 with some short sections of 60MPH running.
> 
> I was amazed to see that there were still a few active semaphore signals on the line!
> 
> One really curious development, Amtrak was changing crews and servicing the train at Tempe. Does anybody remember this? This made the stop at Tucson very brief. They told us that no one traveling on east should step off the train. (I did anyway to get one nice look at the Santa Catalina Mountains!)
> 
> So, this probably made the running time slower in 1995. I think that that if most of the line were upgraded to 79MPH standards with a stop in Phoenix and hopefully a second stop somewhere in the East Valley, that this would only be a few minutes longer than the running times on the Gila line. Especially with the lack of freight train interference in taken into account.


I agree, and am hoping for 110-120 mph, and building the Tucson-Phoenix-LA corridor. I believe the Tucson - Phoenix has all the potential of the Chicago - Milwaukee corridor.


----------



## neroden

fredmcain said:


> The Rail Passengers Association is as bad or worse. When Ross Capon was there, if I sent an e-mail, I ALWAYS got a response. He even talked to me on the telephone one time!



I can say that RPA is doing an astounding amount of stuff with a *very* limited amount of staff, frankly less staff than is really desirable. Jim Mathews is busy responding to emails from *Congress* and the *state governments* all day long -- which is very good, it means we have a lot more influence than we did when Ross was running it! But it does mean it can take longer to get a response to a member email. I don't think we're quite organized well enough that it's clear which other person to write to for some queries which shouldn't really be going to Jim, which is also a problem.

A lot of time, money, and work went into making the NARP/RPA website fully functional (which it was not under Ross) which has also reaped huge benefits, though perhaps more among younger people than older. I'll be honest: to me NARP didn't look real or relevant when I first joined, due to the ineffective web presence. It does now.

I will say everyone's been having trouble with the Post Office. :-( It's generally blamed on Postmaster General DeJoy, who is documented to have illegal conflicts of interest (makes money from competing parcel delivery companies, etc.), who will probably be ousted in the next few months.


----------



## fredmcain

toddinde said:


> Fred, while I am sorry for the issues you encountered, please keep a couple of things in mind. All Aboard Arizona is a small, non-profit that survives entirely on unpaid, volunteers, who literally pour their time, personal funds, and efforts into the organization. Many are elderly, or have had personal life situations that caused them to leave positions, and leads to a loss of institutional knowledge.
> <SNIP>



Todd,

Well, O.K., I guess I can understand or take this into consideration. If you can, see if you can get me a working P.O. box to renew dues at. (I have no computer at home so I prefer "snail mail").

The letter with my dues that was returned went to Prescott. Is that no longer a working address?

Also, what happened to Roger Clark? Is he still with AAA?


----------



## fredmcain

neroden said:


> I don't think we're quite organized well enough that it's clear which other person to write to for some queries which shouldn't really be going to Jim, which is also a problem.
> 
> A lot of time, money, and work went into making the NARP/RPA website fully functional (which it was not under Ross) which has also reaped huge benefits, though perhaps more among younger people than older. I'll be honest: to me NARP didn't look real or relevant when I first joined, due to the ineffective web presence. It does now.



Neroden,

I think your comments on RPA are well taken. I don't know if I was sending e-mails directly to Jim or not but I was using that generic e-mail address posted on the website.

It just seemed to me that it would've been nice had someone taken the time to respond but, oh well such is life, I guess.

The fact is that we seem to have sparked an interest in intercity rail that seems to have things moving in the right direction now, if only we can keep it moving that way.

I can only say that I don't want to get my hopes up too far 'cause I've been let down and disappointed before as I"m sure you have too.

What could go wrong? Well, there could be an historically unprecedented landslide for the Republicans in next year's congressional election and they could well end up rescinding some of the money we were hoping to get. They might even have a "veto proof" majority. But, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Thanks for your input


----------



## 87YJ

Sunset Limited, lets see 6 stops a week..... Oh yea The sunset #1 is running 4 hours late today. Fix this first. Then go to step 2.


----------



## GoAmtrak

toddinde said:


> Great comments! If you are interested in rail passenger service in Arizona and getting the Sunset Limited back to Phoenix, please consider attending in person or via Zoom All Aboard Arizona’s Passenger Rail Summit in Tucson on December 4th. We will be discussing this issue along with an excellent presentation on the West Line/Welton Cutoff. It’s going to be a great program with lots of speakers. You can register on Eventbrite or on the All Aboard Arizona website. Rehabbing the West Line is not a huge expense. Ten years ago, it was evaluated to cost about $4 million for 60 mph. That’s not acceptable for today, and higher speeds would be desirable. It is correct that moving the Sunset off the Sunset Route for those miles would be advantageous to the UP. The corridor plan for the Sun Corridor has a third main from Tucson to Picacho Junction. All of this is very doable. Again, if you want to get the latest on this come to the Summit on 4 December.


Thank you for this information! Is it possible or does it make sense to attend that meeting only for people who reside in Arizona or also for people who reside farther away in the US or even abroad?


----------



## GoAmtrak

neroden said:


> The state of New Mexico agreed to purchase the line from Lamy to the Colorado state line under a Democratic governor (Bill Richardson), and the subsequent Republican governor (Susana Martinez) reneged on the deal. So that is what happened there. (The agreed purchase price was $5 million. I was furious when Martinez reneged on the deal.)
> 
> The advantage to going through Amarillo is... being able to go to Amarillo, which is a large city. Obviously in the days of the ATSF railroad, you had both local and express trains, and the Raton route is arguably better for express trains, but they had trains to Amarillo. We don't today. I have to think that being able to go to Amarillo is of great value.


I didn't know about the purchase negotiations in New Mexico, that's interesting! Between which towns would the new line have gone then, or more exactely, how would the line reach Amarillo from Lamy? 



neroden said:


> Regarding the Phoenix line: for passengers *going to Phoenix*. since it easily takes an hour to get from Maricopa to Phoenix, it would clearly be faster to go via the Phoenix line. For through passengers expressing past Phoenix, yes, the Maricopa line is faster.
> 
> This is one of the odd consequences of the disorderly way in which the rail system in the US was dismantled starting in the 1960s. Whether the faster express route which bypassed intermediate population was kept, or the slower route with more on-line population was kept, was somewhat arbitrary; sometimes both were lost, but it was rare that both were retained.
> 
> Obviously having both is desirable, but if I were to prioritize one, I always prioritize the one which serves more people.


I would go for the same here. To get service to as many people as possible, I would opt for a line connecting larger than smaller cities in tendency. Just watch Alberta or Saskatchewan in Canada where almost have the impression the Via Rail line almost tries to avoid larger population centres or doesn't really go Downtown.


----------



## toddinde

GoAmtrak said:


> Thank you for this information! Is it possible or does it make sense to attend that meeting only for people who reside in Arizona or also for people who reside farther away in the US or even abroad?


This is a great meeting for anyone interested in passenger rail in the US. Only two speakers are primarily focused on Arizona. We have Jim Matthew’s, President of RPA, we have Andy Selden, President of Rail Passenger Alliance, Carl Fowler on the transition of trains from the Railroads to Amtrak and VIA. Plus the Arizona stuff. It’s going to be a great program. So yes, definitely lots to appeal to the rail advocate from outside Arizona.


----------



## toddinde

fredmcain said:


> Todd,
> 
> Well, O.K., I guess I can understand or take this into consideration. If you can, see if you can get me a working P.O. box to renew dues at. (I have no computer at home so I prefer "snail mail").
> 
> The letter with my dues that was returned went to Prescott. Is that no longer a working address?
> 
> Also, what happened to Roger Clark? Is he still with AAA?


Will do! Roger is most definitely still involved, and has been instrumental in planning the meeting. We just had a long talk last night. He’s doing well. Yes, Alan Mott, our old Treasurer, moved from Prescott, so he was the one that kept the PO Box. I’ll post the new one today. Thanks for your support and understanding.


----------



## toddinde

toddinde said:


> Will do! Roger is most definitely still involved, and has been instrumental in planning the meeting. We just had a long talk last night. He’s doing well. Yes, Alan Mott, our old Treasurer, moved from Prescott, so he was the one that kept the PO Box. I’ll post the new one today. Thanks for your support and understanding.


All Aboard Arizona
PO Box 39971
Tucson, AZ 85740-5971


----------



## fredmcain

Thanks, Todd ! BUT ! ! ! ! !

It might also be a good idea to change that address on the website here:

Microsoft Word - 2019 MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION (1) (1) (3) (starchapter.com) 

Who knows? Perhaps more people like me tried to send a donation only to have it returned by the post office. Not many, I'm sure but maybe a few.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain 
Transplanted Arizonan to the Midwest


----------



## Willbridge

GoAmtrak said:


> I didn't know about the purchase negotiations in New Mexico, that's interesting! Between which towns would the new line have gone then, or more exactely, how would the line reach Amarillo from Lamy?


There wasn't really a new line. NM was going to purchase the existing line through Lamy and Raton. Amarillo is on the BNSF's preferred freight route.

There's an article about it on Page One in the attached newsletter and a map showing both lines on Page Eight. With the map you can also see the potential reroute via Pueblo to tap the Front Range market.


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## neroden

Willbridge said:


> There wasn't really a new line. NM was going to purchase the existing line through Lamy and Raton. Amarillo is on the BNSF's preferred freight route.
> 
> There's an article about it on Page One in the attached newsletter and a map showing both lines on Page Eight. With the map you can also see the potential reroute via Pueblo to tap the Front Range market.


Just a note that I've dug through the ridership numbers on this section of the route, and there's basically nobody between Lamy (for Santa Fe) and the Kansas state border -- the largest population is the seasonal Boy Scouts and that's dropping -- but there's a lot of people riding the SW Chief from Garden City and Dodge City, so they are definitely important to retain service to. They mostly are headed eastbound.


----------



## Willbridge

neroden said:


> Just a note that I've dug through the ridership numbers on this section of the route, and there's basically nobody between Lamy (for Santa Fe) and the Kansas state border -- the largest population is the seasonal Boy Scouts and that's dropping -- but there's a lot of people riding the SW Chief from Garden City and Dodge City, so they are definitely important to retain service to. They mostly are headed eastbound.


As has been mentioned before, a route change via Pueblo or a connection from Denver to Train 4 and from Train 3 would change those numbers.


----------



## neroden

Willbridge said:


> As has been mentioned before, a route change via Pueblo or a connection from Denver to Train 4 and from Train 3 would change those numbers.



I was not referring to through traffic. I was referring to ons and offs from the stations of Las Vegas NM, Raton NM, Trinidad CO, La Junta CO, and Lamar CO. Those numbers aren't going up, because those cities are drying up and blowing away.

Yes, a connection to Denver or Pueblo would add a lot of ridership.

As has been mentioned before, stopping in downtown Wichita and in Amarillo and in Clovis would also be major sources of ridership.

If we could invest in a full network of services, I'd run at least one Chicago-LA train via Wichita and Amarillo, a Denver-Albuquerque-El Paso train, and a Denver - Kansas City - Chicago train via Garden City and Dodge City, which seems like it meets the traffic flows more realistically.

But then I'd also be running a Denver-Chicago train via Des Moines and the Quad Cities. And I'd be running the LA-Chicago train via Wyoming, which is faster, with a separate Denver-Salt Lake Ski Areas Route train. And I'd be running multiple daily trains from Denver to Fort Collins via Boulder and from Denver to Pueblo.

Unfortunately, development of a Denver-centric network, which is quite obviously needed, has failed to get started for various state-politics-related reasons.

We've been dealing with a starved, skeletal network and there's a tendency to value whichever route randomly happened to survive over the one which didn't. This is called the "endowment effect", I believe.

In some cases it is *blindingly obvious* that a different route is better -- the Des Moines case of the "Rock Island" routing from Omaha to Chicago for the Zephyr is the clearest, in my opinion -- and yet nobody wants to lose the service which currently exists in order to get the better route, which is understandable but sometimes frustrating.

In the cases of both Phoenix and Des Moines, the other reason the better route isn't being used is that it would cost money and no state government has been willing to pay for it. (The existing route is supported by freight.) In the bizarre case of Raton Pass, which is much less valuable than either the Phoenix or Des Moines routes by any rational standard, eventually governments were convinced to put in money, only because it was already being used. This is an example of the endowment effect. (Though it didn't convince Arizona to keep the Phoenix route back when it was in use.)

As a result of the endowment effect, politically we need to be able to expand while retaining service to some of these places even if they are pretty questionable (ridership at the list of stations I named across Raton Pass is dismal and dropping).


----------



## fredmcain

We seem to have wandered off the topic of the Sunset Limited & Phoenix and at the danger of encouraging this, I can add this about the Raton line:

A lot of passengers use Amtrak's long-distance (LD) trains for the scenery. And the scenery is exceptional along the Raton line especially from Trinidad to Lamy. 

But, is it financially prudent to maintain this line just for 14 trains a week with sight seers? HMMMN. Let me think about that and get back to you!

I have long suspected that if the money could be found to lengthen sidings on the line, install PTC & CTC, then the BNSF might look at running more freight over the line. More freight could well make the financial circumstances of the line make more sense. The old AT&SF was running some through traffic over the line in the 1990s, essentially using the line as a "pop-off valve". However, some railfans in the know think that BNSF is unlikely to ever do that again.

So, the long-term future of the line is in doubt. If that's the case then I would encourage all those on this list and off to ride it while you still can. My wife and I rode the SW Chief from Chicago to LA and back a few years ago and the Raton line was like a flash back to my rail obsessed childhood. Complete with "searchlight" signals, semaphores, jointed rail and signal code lines. The semaphores may be mostly gone by now, but I'd still ride the line anyways,

Regards,
Fred M. Caiin


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## neroden

I am not entirely sure why people think "mountains" equal scenery; some of my favorite scenery on the Southwest Chief is actually east of and west of the Raton Pass section... Kansas was a revelation.


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## Tlcooper93

redacted


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

neroden said:


> Just a note that I've dug through the ridership numbers on this section of the route, and there's basically nobody between Lamy (for Santa Fe) and the Kansas state border -- the largest population is the seasonal Boy Scouts and that's dropping -- but there's a lot of people riding the SW Chief from Garden City and Dodge City, so they are definitely important to retain service to. They mostly are headed eastbound.



Where did you get that information? Per the 2019 ridership stats provided by RPA, La Junta, Raton, and Lamy all have higher ridership than either Dodge City or Garden City. Trinidad and Las Vegas are not far behind either. Also, Raton had higher ridership in 2019 than either 2017 or 2018 and is more than twice as heavily used as any of the other stations between Dodge City and Las Vegas, so I don't think it should be forgotten. Below I listed the 2019 ridership numbers for each of the relevant stations.

Dodge City: 5,324
Garden City: 6,817
Lamar: 1,573
La Junta: 7,061
Trinidad: 6,060
Raton: 18,062
Las Vegas: 4,648
Lamy: 9,064


----------



## neroden

Well, that's a very interesting correction. I know I was looking at older numbers. That's interesting about 2019. Looks like Garden City, and for that matter Hutchinson, numbers have been dropping fast in the last few years, and Trinidad and La Junta numbers have been climbing. I wonder why? It's not population changes. Possibly a short-term effect related to greater awareness due to the publicity campaign about the train possibly being relocated? Credit to Trinidad and La Junta; I didn't realize this.

Raton's mostly the Boy Scout special trips. (Sorry, "Scouts BSA" now, right?) Look at the 2018 number -- 7392. Interesting that they managed to get it to rebound in 2019. It's... not daily traffic, and there's been a national trend away from Scouts BSA in general and away from Raton trips for BSA in particular. Worth running some special trains, I guess, but honestly I'd consider it less reliable than the Las Vegas NM traffic. Gonna be interesting to see the 2020 and 2021 numbers for that locaion.


----------



## GoAmtrak

Willbridge said:


> There wasn't really a new line. NM was going to purchase the existing line through Lamy and Raton. Amarillo is on the BNSF's preferred freight route.
> 
> There's an article about it on Page One in the attached newsletter and a map showing both lines on Page Eight. With the map you can also see the potential reroute via Pueblo to tap the Front Range market.


Thank your for posting this link. I wasn't aware of those plans. Could be an interesting possibility as Santa Fe hopefully remains connected to the US with the commuter rail. Although the Santa Fe area would be lost with this re-routing, it would still be connected via the commuter rail. Clovis and Amarillo could indeed ensure some additional ridership as somebody mentioned already.

On the other hand, if the scenery is that beautiful between Lamy and Trinidad, it would be make some people quite unhappy if it's eliminated from the national network.


----------



## neroden

Now I am wondering What Went Wrong in Hutchinson and Garden City. New question...


----------



## Willbridge

neroden said:


> Well, that's a very interesting correction. I know I was looking at older numbers. That's interesting about 2019. Looks like Garden City, and for that matter Hutchinson, numbers have been dropping fast in the last few years, and Trinidad and La Junta numbers have been climbing. I wonder why? It's not population changes. Possibly a short-term effect related to greater awareness due to the publicity campaign about the train possibly being relocated? Credit to Trinidad and La Junta; I didn't realize this.
> 
> Raton's mostly the Boy Scout special trips. (Sorry, "Scouts BSA" now, right?) Look at the 2018 number -- 7392. Interesting that they managed to get it to rebound in 2019. It's... not daily traffic, and there's been a national trend away from Scouts BSA in general and away from Raton trips for BSA in particular. Worth running some special trains, I guess, but honestly I'd consider it less reliable than the Las Vegas NM traffic. Gonna be interesting to see the 2020 and 2021 numbers for that locaion.


Raton also had the bus connection from Denver. It started out strong but when the Train 3 schedule was shifted, the departure time from Denver moved into pre-dawn hours. Amtrak waffled on staffing the Raton station, so the connection was on its own, which was a problem when trains were late.

In 2018 Greyhound, which had taken over the Front Range service, had operating problems. Also, somewhere in there Amtrak laid off the Group Sales staff in Chicago.

Another factor to consider is the revenue generated by Lamy/Santa Fe, which tends toward a high-end clientele.

Your suggestion of running special trains for the Scouts might work elsewhere but the proposal was to reroute the SWC and abandon the line. As I mentioned before, that not only would have done in the current service but also ended potential DEN<>ABQ service. When all of the parties involved looked closely at the many issues it was concluded that the train shouldn't be re-routed and a long-term investment in the infrastructure should be made.

Attached is the Thruway schedule that should have been started up before there was even the Thruway program. Unlike the Dodge City<>Albuquerque bustitution, this runs on major highways all the way.


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## jebr

Willbridge said:


> Attached is the Thruway schedule that should have been started up before there was even the Thruway program. Unlike the Dodge City<>Albuquerque bustitution, this runs on major highways all the way.



That route appears to be doable now (albeit with a transfer at Tejon P&R in Colorado Springs) Monday - Friday with Bustang. The biggest downfall is that the connection isn't guaranteed; I would imagine connecting to Amtrak wouldn't be a big issue, but connecting from Amtrak with less than an hour cushion is quite tight, particularly since it's not protected.

That said, there still needs to be a connection to/from points west as well. Maybe that could be added to the Bustang South Line as a once-daily frequency? Though timekeeping connecting from Amtrak on the run north could be quite iffy.


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## Kramerica

neroden said:


> Raton's mostly the Boy Scout special trips. (Sorry, "Scouts BSA" now, right?) Look at the 2018 number -- 7392. Interesting that they managed to get it to rebound in 2019. It's... not daily traffic, and there's been a national trend away from Scouts BSA in general and away from Raton trips for BSA in particular. Worth running some special trains, I guess, but honestly I'd consider it less reliable than the Las Vegas NM traffic. Gonna be interesting to see the 2020 and 2021 numbers for that locaion.



Philmont Scout Ranch in Cimarron NM is the premier Boy Scout High Adventure camp and considered to be the pinnacle of scouting. I went there this summer on the SWC as an adult advisor on my son's crew. It is a 45 minute school bus ride from Raton to Philmont. 

In 2018 there was a huge wildfire that shut down a lot of Philmont - a lot fewer scouts went that summer. 

In 2019 it was back to normal - about 24,000 Philmont trekkers. 

In 2020 it was closed completely all season due to COVID.

In 2021 it was back to normal - over 25,000 participants. 

On our trip, there were four Boy Scout groups on the SWC headed to Raton (from Chicago), and we took up a combined 1.5 coach cars (upper) of the two coach cars in the consist. The second coach was a coach/baggage. All the backpacks for the scouts were stored in there and locked. There was probably $100,000 worth of gear in that baggage area. There was also a single level baggage car at the end of the consist - it really ruined the railfan window. On the way back there were similar numbers of scouts and the same consist. I did not notice any scout groups going to/from California.


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## toddinde

neroden said:


> I was not referring to through traffic. I was referring to ons and offs from the stations of Las Vegas NM, Raton NM, Trinidad CO, La Junta CO, and Lamar CO. Those numbers aren't going up, because those cities are drying up and blowing away.
> 
> Yes, a connection to Denver or Pueblo would add a lot of ridership.
> 
> As has been mentioned before, stopping in downtown Wichita and in Amarillo and in Clovis would also be major sources of ridership.
> 
> If we could invest in a full network of services, I'd run at least one Chicago-LA train via Wichita and Amarillo, a Denver-Albuquerque-El Paso train, and a Denver - Kansas City - Chicago train via Garden City and Dodge City, which seems like it meets the traffic flows more realistically.
> 
> But then I'd also be running a Denver-Chicago train via Des Moines and the Quad Cities. And I'd be running the LA-Chicago train via Wyoming, which is faster, with a separate Denver-Salt Lake Ski Areas Route train. And I'd be running multiple daily trains from Denver to Fort Collins via Boulder and from Denver to Pueblo.
> 
> Unfortunately, development of a Denver-centric network, which is quite obviously needed, has failed to get started for various state-politics-related reasons.
> 
> We've been dealing with a starved, skeletal network and there's a tendency to value whichever route randomly happened to survive over the one which didn't. This is called the "endowment effect", I believe.
> 
> In some cases it is *blindingly obvious* that a different route is better -- the Des Moines case of the "Rock Island" routing from Omaha to Chicago for the Zephyr is the clearest, in my opinion -- and yet nobody wants to lose the service which currently exists in order to get the better route, which is understandable but sometimes frustrating.
> 
> In the cases of both Phoenix and Des Moines, the other reason the better route isn't being used is that it would cost money and no state government has been willing to pay for it. (The existing route is supported by freight.) In the bizarre case of Raton Pass, which is much less valuable than either the Phoenix or Des Moines routes by any rational standard, eventually governments were convinced to put in money, only because it was already being used. This is an example of the endowment effect. (Though it didn't convince Arizona to keep the Phoenix route back when it was in use.)
> 
> As a result of the endowment effect, politically we need to be able to expand while retaining service to some of these places even if they are pretty questionable (ridership at the list of stations I named across Raton Pass is dismal and dropping).


In the case of Phoenix, apparently the West Line issue came up during Fife Symington’s administration as Governor of Arizona. At that time, America West Airlines went bankrupt and it’s hub at Sky Harbor was at risk. The state came up with millions to save the hub which American took over. At the time, it was believed to be one or the other. The issue of I-10 congestion and a lot of other issues make getting service back to Phoenix a real possibility now.


----------



## Willbridge

jebr said:


> That route appears to be doable now (albeit with a transfer at Tejon P&R in Colorado Springs) Monday - Friday with Bustang. The biggest downfall is that the connection isn't guaranteed; I would imagine connecting to Amtrak wouldn't be a big issue, but connecting from Amtrak with less than an hour cushion is quite tight, particularly since it's not protected.
> 
> That said, there still needs to be a connection to/from points west as well. Maybe that could be added to the Bustang South Line as a once-daily frequency? Though timekeeping connecting from Amtrak on the run north could be quite iffy.


There have been conversations about this for both the potential east (LAJ) and west (RAT) connections. The main difficulty with integrating existing Bustang at LAJ is potential disruption of medical appointments in Pueblo that would be caused by Train 3 running late. One of the reasons for the success of Bustang is that the regional traffic is not greatly affected by transcontinental problems or scheduling requirements. 

The main difficulty with integrating Bustang with a RAT connection is that it goes out of state. That might sound silly but keep in mind that politicians are involved. Operating costs would be lower if all the connections in both directions were in LAJ. Either way, the Denver<>Pueblo timeslots that would be filled would actually be complementary to current Bustang schedules.

There are possible west connections at TRI or LAJ but they push the Denver times into the dark hours. Also, there is usually coach space west of RAT after the Scouts are off. And when Train 3 is late, RAT has restaurants and saloons near the station.


----------



## cirdan

George Harris said:


> Wild guess: about $200 to $300 million to get the Phoenix line west to the point that it could carry the Sunset at 60 mph or 79 mph. (The difference in cost for getting it in condition for 60 mph and for 79 mph would be next to nothing.) There is no way that it makes sense for Amtrak or the state of Arizona to spend that kind of money for a three times a week train, and for sure it makes no sense for UP to spend it. The additional 43 miles and going through a major urban area is why it also make no sense for UP to increase the Sunset Route capacity by upgrading the Phoenix line for part of a directional running system with the Gila line instead of adding a second main along a line through a mostly unpopulated desert.



Just a long shot here. But is there any potential for a commuter line that Amtrak could piggyback onto?


----------



## coventry801

toddinde said:


> In the case of Phoenix, apparently the West Line issue came up during Fife Symington’s administration as Governor of Arizona. At that time, America West Airlines went bankrupt and it’s hub at Sky Harbor was at risk. The state came up with millions to save the hub which American took over. At the time, it was believed to be one or the other. The issue of I-10 congestion and a lot of other issues make getting service back to Phoenix a real possibility now.



Can we have a separate daily train, or a section of 4-5 cars seperating from SL at Maricopa, operating between LAX and PHX via Maricopa, Picachu, and Tempe? I'm sure people would not mind that small detour, especially for a sleeper train.


----------



## Cal

coventry801 said:


> operating between LAX and PHX via Maricopa, Picachu, and Tempe?


I am confused on this routing, what tracks are you talking about?


----------



## Cal

coventry801 said:


> Can we have a separate daily train, or a section of 4-5 cars seperating from SL at Maricopa, operating between LAX and PHX via Maricopa, Picachu, and Tempe? I'm sure people would not mind that small detour, especially for a sleeper train.


I feel like it'd run too close to the current SL to make it work.


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## 87YJ

What fun to wait..... But a run down from PHX to Picacho would be a mini TE thing I guess, sort of, maybe??

Picacho was the Florence stagecoach stop for the trains back in time. Guess it would be reliving the past in a way...


----------



## coventry801

Cal said:


> I am confused on this routing, what tracks are you talking about?



I might be wrong but with my limited knowledge I think this is doable with minimum efforts. Can even have additional 4 or 5 cars attached to SL and separate from Maricopa and run through this route to Phoenix


----------



## Cal

coventry801 said:


> I might be wrong but with my limited knowledge I think this is doable with minimum efforts. Can even have additional 4 or 5 cars attached to SL and separate from Maricopa and run through this route to Phoenix


Thanks.


----------



## John Santos

I used to go to Phoenix regularly on business, and have been in the area a few times on vacation (most recently in the summer of 2019, LSL->TE->SL->Tucson, drove over a very circuitous route spending several days in Phoenix, to Las Vegas, NV, Thruway->Kingman->SWC->CL->NEC->home. ) So I'm vaguely familiar with the area, but am confused by the plan.

Is the idea of for the Phoenix train to split off from the east bound SL at Maricopa and continue north to Phoenix, and in the other direction, join the west bound SL in Maricopa and continue on to LA, or is the idea to split off the west bound SL/TE at Maricopa, continuing to Phoenix, and the other way, to join the east bound SL/TE in Maricopa? Or two have the SL split/join in both directions, so effectively TWO Phoenix<->Maricopa round trips every day, one connecting with the east bound SL and the other with the west bound SL?

I know there is commuter rail in Phoenix, but I'm completely unfamiliar with the routes or schedules. Does it reach as far as Maricopa? Would a commuter rail connection work, at least initially to boost local interest and ridership enough to justify a separate section of the SL, or even a completely separate LA or Chicago or New Orleans train specifically destined for Phoenix?

As I understand it, the tracks west of Phoenix don't exist any more, but the ROW is still there. Is this correct? Would the local Phoenix area commuter rail be interested in resurrecting the ROW, which Amtrak could then share, either for re-routing the SL or for a direct LA<->Phoenix train? (From the prior discussion, I understand the route via Phoenix formerly used by the SL was much slower than the current route, but I don't know if this is because it was longer or because the tracks were limited to very low speeds. Generally, if the later, that could be fixed and would have to be fixed if the track no longer exists. I believe it is MUCH cheaper to upgrade an existing track with new roadbed, ties and welded, heavier rail than to construct a brand new ROW, even through an uninhabited desert where land is _dirt_ cheap.


----------



## zephyr17

cirdan said:


> Just a long shot here. But is there any potential for a commuter line that Amtrak could piggyback onto?


Not a lot of commuters in the roadless desert that the Phoenix West line goes through once it gets west of Buckeye.


----------



## coventry801

John Santos said:


> I used to go to Phoenix regularly on business, and have been in the area a few times on vacation (most recently in the summer of 2019, LSL->TE->SL->Tucson, drove over a very circuitous route spending several days in Phoenix, to Las Vegas, NV, Thruway->Kingman->SWC->CL->NEC->home. ) So I'm vaguely familiar with the area, but am confused by the plan.
> 
> Is the idea of for the Phoenix train to split off from the east bound SL at Maricopa and continue north to Phoenix, and in the other direction, join the west bound SL in Maricopa and continue on to LA, or is the idea to split off the west bound SL/TE at Maricopa, continuing to Phoenix, and the other way, to join the east bound SL/TE in Maricopa? Or two have the SL split/join in both directions, so effectively TWO Phoenix<->Maricopa round trips every day, one connecting with the east bound SL and the other with the west bound SL?
> 
> I know there is commuter rail in Phoenix, but I'm completely unfamiliar with the routes or schedules. Does it reach as far as Maricopa? Would a commuter rail connection work, at least initially to boost local interest and ridership enough to justify a separate section of the SL, or even a completely separate LA or Chicago or New Orleans train specifically destined for Phoenix?
> 
> As I understand it, the tracks west of Phoenix don't exist any more, but the ROW is still there. Is this correct? Would the local Phoenix area commuter rail be interested in resurrecting the ROW, which Amtrak could then share, either for re-routing the SL or for a direct LA<->Phoenix train? (From the prior discussion, I understand the route via Phoenix formerly used by the SL was much slower than the current route, but I don't know if this is because it was longer or because the tracks were limited to very low speeds. Generally, if the later, that could be fixed and would have to be fixed if the track no longer exists. I believe it is MUCH cheaper to upgrade an existing track with new roadbed, ties and welded, heavier rail than to construct a brand new ROW, even through an uninhabited desert where land is _dirt_ cheap.




As far as I understand, although ROW is there for tracks west of Phoenix, there is no population, which means no commuter rail support, Now without both freight support and commuter demand, I doubt it would ever be back at all unless Amtrak own it. But again, without commuter demand, just one SL train daily on entire track seems to be a black hole for burning cash on maintaining expenses. I doubt Amtrak is able to afford that.

The idea from above post was to have a direct connection between LA and Phoenix, so just need to split off from the east bound SL at Maricopa and continue north to Phoenix, and in the other direction, join the west bound SL in Maricopa and continue on to LA. This way we have 1) Phoenix Union Station connected in the system, 2) For short to medium travel distance, direct connections without any transferring encourages passengers to take the train.


Splitting off from western bound SL than continue north to Phoenix and vise versa is less reasonable. 1) Less passengers travel or willing to travel long distance eastbound from Phoenix to New Orleans/Chicago comparing with demand between LA and Phoenix. 2) For long distance travel, in this case between Phoenix and New Orleans/Chicago, transferring to a local commuter train at one end hardly discourages travelers who plan to take rail. Assuming commuter train soon operates between Tucson and Phoenix, transferring commuter train to Phoenix at Tucson would be most likely sufficient.


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## Eric S

There is light rail in Phoenix but, as of yet, no commuter rail, although there have been and may continue to be ongoing studies looking into adding commuter rail.


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## 87YJ

Light rail to Maricopa would relive the traffic going north each AM/PM. Second thing is the line going to the casino in Maricopa as it runs busses north to PHX now. Lastly getting people to the SL. Yes we are not going to lead this thing, but tagging on to a project works just as well. With the Casino getting it across the Gila River Res. is much easier. the time frame to run a light rail as follows, SL in @ 5:30AM, heading to work folks 6:30AM and Casino people come down around 10:30 for lunch & play. Casino folks leave north anytime, Work people are headed home @ 3;30 to 6:00 & the train arrives @ 9:00PM ish. This is years off but?? 

I kind of like the idea of a few cars(coach & sleeper) being moved down to Picacho Junction from PHX to tag on to the SL. There is no sidings in Picacho so one would need to be built, but that is cheap in the big picture. 
Noted that the rail line goes on the north side of Sky Harbor right next to the private parking & light rail. Wonder if that would make a better station than trying to be downtown with no parking to speak of. Just thinking.


----------



## cirdan

zephyr17 said:


> Not a lot of commuters in the roadless desert that the Phoenix West line goes through once it gets west of Buckeye.



Even finding somebody who could foot the bill for a small part of the route might be better than nothing maybe?


----------



## zephyr17

cirdan said:


> Even finding somebody who could foot the bill for a small part of the route might be better than nothing maybe?


The track remains in service at least as far as Goodyear, AFAIK. The abandoned part is mostly in the roadless area.


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## NES28

As I noted in this thread a few weeks ago the SW Regional Rail Plan published by the the FRA several years ago, (and available on their website) recommended that true high-speed rail service between the LA and San Diego areas and Phoenix would be viable. Since it is not possible for frequent HSR and conventional freight trains to share track this would require building a new alignment, probably predominantly paralleling I-10. Operation is projected to be profitable. While construction would be much more expensive than the filling the gap west of Phoenix or operating the Sunset Ltd daily, it would carry significant numbers of passengers who now drive or fly. Endless negotiations with UP could be avoided. This is the option that we should promote.


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## John Santos

coventry801 said:


> [...]
> The idea from above post was to have a direct connection between LA and Phoenix, so just need to split off from the east bound SL at Maricopa and continue north to Phoenix, and in the other direction, join the west bound SL in Maricopa and continue on to LA. This way we have 1) Phoenix Union Station connected in the system, 2) For short to medium travel distance, direct connections without any transferring encourages passengers to take the train.
> [...]


If I wasn't clear in my comment, this was what I thought was the most likely proposal, but I wasn't sure.

Just checked with Amtrak's "Track Your Train" map and it appears the EB 2 arrives at Maricopa at about 7AM and the WB 1 arrives at around 10PM, so serving both with a single connecting train to Phoenix would only require a 9 to 15 hour wait! One set of equipment (departing Maricopa at about 8AM, and returning at 9PM, would work but it sounds like a large investment with little use, unless the same train could be used for commuter rail during the day. On the other hand, it could easily depart Phoenix at maybe 6 AM, meet the East bound 2 at 7, and return to Phoenix carrying LA->Phoenix passengers. Then turn around, depart Phoenix at 8:30 PM (carrying Phoenix->LA passengers, meet the WB 1, and then return to Phoenix with passengers from the East. This train would sit idle in Phoenix from about 10:30 PM to 6 AM and from 7:30 AM to 8:30 PM, unless it served double duty as a local train during the day. (The 7AM arrival of the 2 would play havoc with the morning commute, though, unless it WAS the morning commuter train, but having to wait for a delayed 2 would break that!)

Much as I hate to say it, maybe a Thruway Bus would make more sense?

P.S. later NES28 mentioned a better alternative as HSR from SoCal to Phoenix. If service were frequent, maybe the HSR ROW could be extended past Phoenix to Tuscon and some or all the service could turn there, and connect with the SL at Maricopa, Tuscon or both?


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## 87YJ

Think you would want to connect in Picacho @ the junction to PHX, no need to run the train another 30 miles west to Maricopa. Or just go on to Tucson, that would start something..


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## Cal

Can I just note that if the trains were to split at Maricopa the trains would have to follow each other very close for a considerable ways longer as the tracks north to Phoenix aren't till after Eloy.


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## 87YJ

Maricopa would close. Trains would join and split @ Eloy(Picacho). With a siding, the SL would just back in drop off and pick up. The PHX set @ the back. Have no idea if it would work.


----------



## zephyr17

John Santos said:


> I used to go to Phoenix regularly on business, and have been in the area a few times on vacation (most recently in the summer of 2019, LSL->TE->SL->Tucson, drove over a very circuitous route spending several days in Phoenix, to Las Vegas, NV, Thruway->Kingman->SWC->CL->NEC->home. ) So I'm vaguely familiar with the area, but am confused by the plan.
> 
> Is the idea of for the Phoenix train to split off from the east bound SL at Maricopa and continue north to Phoenix, and in the other direction, join the west bound SL in Maricopa and continue on to LA, or is the idea to split off the west bound SL/TE at Maricopa, continuing to Phoenix, and the other way, to join the east bound SL/TE in Maricopa? Or two have the SL split/join in both directions, so effectively TWO Phoenix<->Maricopa round trips every day, one connecting with the east bound SL and the other with the west bound SL?
> 
> I know there is commuter rail in Phoenix, but I'm completely unfamiliar with the routes or schedules. Does it reach as far as Maricopa? Would a commuter rail connection work, at least initially to boost local interest and ridership enough to justify a separate section of the SL, or even a completely separate LA or Chicago or New Orleans train specifically destined for Phoenix?
> 
> As I understand it, the tracks west of Phoenix don't exist any more, but the ROW is still there. Is this correct? Would the local Phoenix area commuter rail be interested in resurrecting the ROW, which Amtrak could then share, either for re-routing the SL or for a direct LA<->Phoenix train? (From the prior discussion, I understand the route via Phoenix formerly used by the SL was much slower than the current route, but I don't know if this is because it was longer or because the tracks were limited to very low speeds. Generally, if the later, that could be fixed and would have to be fixed if the track no longer exists. I believe it is MUCH cheaper to upgrade an existing track with new roadbed, ties and welded, heavier rail than to construct a brand new ROW, even through an uninhabited desert where land is _dirt_ cheap.


Well, there is no line north out of Maricopa to Phoenix. That _would_ be a brand new line. The Phoenix line splits from the mainline at Wellton, only 25 miles or so east of Yuma, and rejoins the mainline at Picacho Jct, 15 miles or so southwest of Casa Grande.

The line is active and in service between Picacho Jct and somewhere to the west of Phoenix, around Goodyear somewhere, IIRC. It is worked from the east end.

The Sunset ran fast over the Phoenix West line, it was 70 mph track, although it was a bone rattler, jointed rail not really well maintained. The Phoenix West line took a more direct route than any highway between Phoenix and Yuma. It took longer because it had a longer distance to cover than the mainline through Gila Bend and Maricopa.


----------



## neroden

NES28 said:


> As I noted in this thread a few weeks ago the SW Regional Rail Plan published by the the FRA several years ago, (and available on their website) recommended that true high-speed rail service between the LA and San Diego areas and Phoenix would be viable. Since it is not possible for frequent HSR and conventional freight trains to share track this would require building a new alignment, probably predominantly paralleling I-10. Operation is projected to be profitable. While construction would be much more expensive than the filling the gap west of Phoenix or operating the Sunset Ltd daily, it would carry significant numbers of passengers who now drive or fly. Endless negotiations with UP could be avoided. This is the option that we should promote.


While I agree entirely, I suspect Phoenix would have to buy property from UP just to get the high speed line in and out of downtown (even if they were building elevated tracks over the existing ROW). I-10's route becomes unsuitable for adding passenger rail in downtown Phoenix. I wish the city had bothered to buy Phoenix Union Station; it will come in handy.


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## toddinde

cirdan said:


> Just a long shot here. But is there any potential for a commuter line that Amtrak could piggyback onto?


The cost is wildly off the mark. Ten years ago, the State of Arizona did a study. The cost to rehab the West Line to Class 4 track was $4 million. Obviously, the cost today will be higher, but nowhere near in the hundreds of millions. As for piggybacking off commuters, it’s probably more likely commuter rail development in Phoenix will piggyback off Amtrak expansion, but it’s certainly possible. They might both benefit from a logical first step which is a daily Sunset routed through Phoenix. There are really two things needed for the corridor; a third main from Tucson to Picacho Junction, and a rehab of the Phoenix line from Picacho Junction to Buckeye. The West Line situation may solve itself. That should be enough, with some improvements to the Sunset Route from Welton to Coachella, to realize the vision of a daily Sunset, three round trips between Tucson and Buckeye with on that continues to LA which, with the Sunset, would be twice daily service between Arizona and LA. California’s work on Coachella Valley service is critical to the plan, but that’s moving along nicely. The Tucson-Phoenix-West Line corridor has as much potential as any corridor in the US, and would be one of the more reasonable ones in cost to develop.


----------



## toddinde

zephyr17 said:


> Well, there is no line north out of Maricopa to Phoenix. That _would_ be a brand new line. The Phoenix line splits from the mainline at Wellton, only 25 miles or so east of Yuma, and rejoins the mainline at Picacho Jct, 15 miles or so southwest of Casa Grande.
> 
> The line is active and in service between Picacho Jct and somewhere to the west of Phoenix, around Goodyear somewhere, IIRC. It is worked from the east end.
> 
> The Sunset ran fast over the Phoenix West line, it was 70 mph track, although it was a bone rattler, jointed rail not really well maintained. The Phoenix West line took a more direct route than any highway between Phoenix and Yuma. It took longer because it had a longer distance to cover than the mainline through Gila Bend and Maricopa.


Just to add, there is no commuter rail in Phoenix. There is light rail. That is not entirely irrelevant because there is railway engineering and construction expertise in Arizona which would make contracting more competitive.


----------



## Eric S

toddinde said:


> The cost is wildly off the mark. Ten years ago, the State of Arizona did a study. The cost to rehab the West Line to Class 4 track was $4 million. Obviously, the cost today will be higher, but nowhere near in the hundreds of millions. As for piggybacking off commuters, it’s probably more likely commuter rail development in Phoenix will piggyback off Amtrak expansion, but it’s certainly possible. They might both benefit from a logical first step which is a daily Sunset routed through Phoenix. There are really two things needed for the corridor; a third main from Tucson to Picacho Junction, and a rehab of the Phoenix line from Picacho Junction to Buckeye. The West Line situation may solve itself. That should be enough, with some improvements to the Sunset Route from Welton to Coachella, to realize the vision of a daily Sunset, three round trips between Tucson and Buckeye with on that continues to LA which, with the Sunset, would be twice daily service between Arizona and LA. California’s work on Coachella Valley service is critical to the plan, but that’s moving along nicely. The Tucson-Phoenix-West Line corridor has as much potential as any corridor in the US, and would be one of the more reasonable ones in cost to develop.


Only $4 million?!? That just seems incredibly low. Unless, I suppose, UP has been maintaining the track to near-Class 4 levels. I would have guessed that costs would be at least one and more likely two orders of magnitude higher.


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## 87YJ

We have to keep in mind @ only 8K people used MCR(Maricopa) last year, 12k in 2017. Thats 3 stops each way a week. Phoenix area population is 4.5 million.

Tucson area population is 1 million. Last year they had 16k passengers, in 2017 they had near 30k passengers. 

So you can guess that Phoenix would have 4+ times the passengers as Tucson if the rail line went there. The question is, would there, you may think, "BUT". 

Got all the info and numbers online.


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## coventry801

87YJ said:


> Maricopa would close. Trains would join and split @ Eloy(Picacho). With a siding, the SL would just back in drop off and pick up. The PHX set @ the back. Have no idea if it would work.



Could work. If someone from Amtrak pushes it


----------



## coventry801

Cal said:


> Can I just note that if the trains were to split at Maricopa the trains would have to follow each other very close for a considerable ways longer as the tracks north to Phoenix aren't till after Eloy. View attachment 25767


Yes agree. If UP have a problem with that, might just have to separate at Eloy.


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## coventry801

zephyr17 said:


> Well, there is no line north out of Maricopa to Phoenix. That _would_ be a brand new line. The Phoenix line splits from the mainline at Wellton, only 25 miles or so east of Yuma, and rejoins the mainline at Picacho Jct, 15 miles or so southwest of Casa Grande.
> 
> The line is active and in service between Picacho Jct and somewhere to the west of Phoenix, around Goodyear somewhere, IIRC. It is worked from the east end.
> 
> The Sunset ran fast over the Phoenix West line, it was 70 mph track, although it was a bone rattler, jointed rail not really well maintained. The Phoenix West line took a more direct route than any highway between Phoenix and Yuma. It took longer because it had a longer distance to cover than the mainline through Gila Bend and Maricopa.



There used to be a Maricopa - Phoenix railway. I remember seeing those tracks at Chandler. Was wondering if AZ never considered reviving/rebuilding it as a commuter line?


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## jis

coventry801 said:


> There used to be a Maricopa - Phoenix railway. I remember seeing those tracks at Chandler. Was wondering if AZ never considered reviving/rebuilding it as a commuter line?


Here is all the info I could find about the M&P:






Maricopa & Phoenix & Salt River Valley Railway - Abandoned Rails


History, pictures and ICC filings of the abandoned Maricopa & Phoenix & Salt River Valley Railway.




www.abandonedrails.com





Of course if most of its roadbed was used to build a highway, that would explain why the rails were never restored. As stated in the article, abandonment would appear to have been before 1948.


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## west point

Is the west line welded or stick rail? The unused portion of the west line IMO should be upgraded to class 5 - 90 MPH. Class 6 would be better but requires all grade crossings signaled and other items. If an agreement with UP can be made that no freight trains on the line then maintenance will be much less? It will be important what an updated study will show needed as several FRA items changed and PTC would also be in play for anything over 79 MPH


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## jis

west point said:


> Is the west line welded or stick rail? The unused portion of the west line IMO should be upgraded to class 5 - 90 MPH. Class 6 would be better but requires all grade crossings signaled and other items. If an agreement with UP can be made that no freight trains on the line then maintenance will be much less? It will be important what an updated study will show needed as several FRA items changed and PTC would also be in play for anything over 79 MPH


PTC would be in play even below 79mph if one wants to run more than 5 (IIRC) trains per day.


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## Cal

87YJ said:


> We have to keep in mind @ only 8K people used MCR(Maricopa) last year,


If I did my math right, that means about 25 people used it for each train that went through. Not amazing, but not terrible.


----------



## Cal

west point said:


> Is the west line welded or stick rail? The unused portion of the west line IMO should be upgraded to class 5 - 90 MPH. Class 6 would be better but requires all grade crossings signaled and other items. If an agreement with UP can be made that no freight trains on the line then maintenance will be much less? It will be important what an updated study will show needed as several FRA items changed and PTC would also be in play for anything over 79 MPH


What speeds can passenger trains get to on class 6 tracks? What about beyond that?


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## Cal

jis said:


> Here is all the info I could find about the M&P:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maricopa & Phoenix & Salt River Valley Railway - Abandoned Rails
> 
> 
> History, pictures and ICC filings of the abandoned Maricopa & Phoenix & Salt River Valley Railway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abandonedrails.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course if most of its roadbed was used to build a highway, that would explain why the rails were never restored. As stated in the article, abandonment would appear to have been before 1948.


Perhaps this could help locate it?


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## zephyr17

west point said:


> Is the west line welded or stick rail? The unused portion of the west line IMO should be upgraded to class 5 - 90 MPH. Class 6 would be better but requires all grade crossings signaled and other items. If an agreement with UP can be made that no freight trains on the line then maintenance will be much less? It will be important what an updated study will show needed as several FRA items changed and PTC would also be in play for anything over 79 MPH


West line was stick rail. Now it is out of service, unmaintained stick rail. It is not operable, except perhaps as FRA excepted track with a 10 mph max with no passenger moves and even that is really iffy.

It was Class 4, with ABS signalling.

No matter what, if they want to put it back into service, they'll have to relay it and it would likely be CWR.

I seriously doubt UP is interested in doing it for themselves. The only way it is going back into service is if some public entity acquires it. They can rebuild it to whatever FRA standard they can afford once they own it.

I don't think through freights are an issue at all. UP does nicely with the Sunset Route mainline through Gila Bend. The lack of through traffic on the line is what led SP to embargo it in the first place.


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## 87YJ

If you would like to look @ the track(on Google maps) from Picacho north to Coolidge to Mesa and on to the north side of Sky Harbor(airport).First zoom in to see the Y @ Picacho. Once you get north to Gilbert the housing is heavy. The tracks run on the north side of the airport. The NE corner of the airport has long term parking plus a light rail station in easy walking. And it has a siding(2) for storage of the train.
Never work!


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## west point

The west line does not need to be updated to class 6 at once. Better to just meet the traffic needs. IMO the ownership of the line is the first item to be resolved. If UP will part with the line that is one thing otherwise just updating is another. An agreement about freight use of the line needs some Iron clad provisions. Since the roadbed and track will probably be rebuilt to future class 6 specification any freight traffic will need damage prevention clauses. That would include WILD and full equipment defect detectors at each end. As well one at a mid point siding. (needed if #1 running over 2 hours late)

Class 4 (79 MPH) and 1 train a day will only require the ABS system to be upgraded. Class 5 (90) will require some kind of cab signaling, ATC or as an alternate PTC. Class 6 would require every grade crossing with 4 quadrant gates. That means every crossing no exceptions gets very expensive, doesn't it? That becomes very expensive. Once more than 5 passenger trains a day will require PTC or if UP ships Haz Mat then automatic PTC.

Possible order of implementation; get the west line; rebuild it subgrade up; solve the PHX station problem; reroute present Sunset; make Sunset daily: maybe start out filling in days with a Tucson <> LAX train. Then get service daily with either Eagle or Sunset depending on how Amtrak decides to run it. SAS - NOL separate if Eagle used.

Then start adding the TUS - lax additional trains. Somewheren


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## Siegmund

Eric S said:


> Only $4 million?!? That just seems incredibly low. Unless, I suppose, UP has been maintaining the track to near-Class 4 levels. I would have guessed that costs would be at least one and more likely two orders of magnitude higher.



It does seem startlingly low.

But one good thing about desert climate is that there's a lot less trouble with ties rotting, ballast washing away, and trees growing on the ROW than in a wet climate. I have walked quite a few roadbeds in southern Idaho and eastern Montana, 40 years after abandonment, that looked like they could have tracks laid tomorrow and trains running the day after.

I would be happy with Class 4. Class 5/6 are a lot of extra infrastructure cost when going 90mph instead of 80 only shaves a few seconds off each mile. Better to fix one short 30mph speed restriction than to upgrade 10 miles of track from class 4 to class 5.


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## zephyr17

west point said:


> The west line does not need to be updated to class 6 at once. Better to just meet the traffic needs. IMO the ownership of the line is the first item to be resolved. If UP will part with the line that is one thing otherwise just updating is another. An agreement about freight use of the line needs some Iron clad provisions. Since the roadbed and track will probably be rebuilt to future class 6 specification any freight traffic will need damage prevention clauses. That would include WILD and full equipment defect detectors at each end. As well one at a mid point siding. (needed if #1 running over 2 hours late)
> 
> Class 4 (79 MPH) and 1 train a day will only require the ABS system to be upgraded. Class 5 (90) will require some kind of cab signaling, ATC or as an alternate PTC. Class 6 would require every grade crossing with 4 quadrant gates. That means every crossing no exceptions gets very expensive, doesn't it? That becomes very expensive. Once more than 5 passenger trains a day will require PTC or if UP ships Haz Mat then automatic PTC.
> 
> Possible order of implementation; get the west line; rebuild it subgrade up; solve the PHX station problem; reroute present Sunset; make Sunset daily: maybe start out filling in days with a Tucson <> LAX train. Then get service daily with either Eagle or Sunset depending on how Amtrak decides to run it. SAS - NOL separate if Eagle used.
> 
> Then start adding the TUS - lax additional trains. Somewheren


The big issue is getting an agency willing to acquire it and funds for it. UP can easily be persuaded to let it go, easy money for two streaks of rust that have gone unused for decades. That first step is a doozy, everything else is trivial by comparison (btw, the signal infrastructure will have to be entirely rebuilt. It was old and code line based, and is effectively gone). Getting the political buy in to do it is the actual hard part, especially in Arizona. There are no on line communities and no service to the non existent communities to build support on.

Doing Tucson-Phoenix corridor service on existing, serviceable track is the logical place to start to build ridership and awareness in southern Arizona. At least it goes through existing communities such as Mesa and Tempe. Maybe after such service is established and popular, a case for Corridor service to Yuma, the Coachella Valley and Los Angeles can be built. That is case, once built for Corridor service the Sunset can use it. Building a case based on the Sunset is the tail wagging the dog.

Starting with Phoenix West is simply a recipe for political failure.


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## zephyr17

Logically, the route for an Arizona Corridor would actually be Flagstaff, Phoenix, Tucson, hitting the communities north of Phoenix and proving access to places like Sedona. That is where the population is. Unfortunately, the geography is much more challenging for a rail line capable of competing with highway speeds. It would need to surmount the Mogollon Rim, instead running through the largely flat and easy desert of Phoenix West. There's a reason the existing BNSF Flagstaff-Phoenix line is called the "Peavine".


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## George Harris

Eric S said:


> Only $4 million?!? That just seems incredibly low. Unless, I suppose, UP has been maintaining the track to near-Class 4 levels. I would have guessed that costs would be at least one and more likely two orders of magnitude higher.


There is something basically wrong with this number. Think 100% new rail for the main track, plus 100% new ties, plus approximately 12 inches new ballast, plus who knows what bridge work and other miscellaneous work. Probably need some ditch cleaning, and other odds and ends of earthwork, plus, is there any vegetation growth in this area, then think some brush clearing. I don't have the current info at hand, but I am certain that rail material alone would be far above four million.


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## 87YJ

The west route will be a normal political rat hole with every politician needing something that costs millions more for their election. 

Can only wait for someone to propose a highspeed bus. The hot pavement in AZ vs rubber tires. Sorry the mind just went there! 

East side of PHX is the start. It's already built, a UP line to PHX. Tagging on to a PHX to TUC link that has been talked about. Might work!


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## Quoctama

My proposal would be a split similar to the Silver Services, where Sunset Limited stays on its usual route but a "Sunrise Limited" of sorts would head up to Phoenix. And the revival of the abandoned corridor that traveled westward after Coolidge and followed AZ-87. That could be used to separate freight and passenger temporarily and help passenger trains run more efficiently without freight in the way in those segments.

The western line is slow but Union Pacific may be issuing a remodel for better tracks. So who knows if it becomes even remotely usable for passenger rail. As of now, it's used to get freight to and from LA as it always has so they don't need to go around east of Maricopa.

Tempe has also begun its development near the station area with a proposed underground station in the works to serve both Amtrak and future commuter lines. Above the ground will be mixed-use grounds which are already being built with space for an underground station in mind.

I'm unsure about Phoenix Union as it hasn't released any plans but it'd have to be underground as well considering the low space it has.

For the commuter rail, it simply has no funding, and considering the money given to us, it isn't enough to make it soon. The only transit-related projects being built currently are the 2 new light rail lines (South Central (Green Line) and I-10 Capitol (Blue Line)) and an extension of the current Valley Line (Gold). The start of the commuter lines and an eventual acceleration of the lines are being looked into, efforts are still being made it's just very iffy.

The Maricopa Railroad got removed to create a carriageway for AZ-347 as it has become more crowded between Phoenix and Maricopa in recent years, so the corridors to the east and west of it are the only ones we can use.


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## Willbridge

Siegmund said:


> It does seem startlingly low.
> 
> But one good thing about desert climate is that there's a lot less trouble with ties rotting, ballast washing away, and trees growing on the ROW than in a wet climate. I have walked quite a few roadbeds in southern Idaho and eastern Montana, 40 years after abandonment, that looked like they could have tracks laid tomorrow and trains running the day after.
> 
> I would be happy with Class 4. Class 5/6 are a lot of extra infrastructure cost when going 90mph instead of 80 only shaves a few seconds off each mile. Better to fix one short 30mph speed restriction than to upgrade 10 miles of track from class 4 to class 5.


Reminds of when I was working on getting the _Pioneer _established. One of the "reasons" in 1975 that it wasn't feasible was the unused Boise<>Orchard segment. I went out there and brought back photos. I was told that someone at Amtrak looked at them and commented that the line looked better than what they were running some trains on in the Midwest.

Of course, more time has passed with these lines shut down (PHX west and BOI east) but unless there's a flash flood area not much will have happened in the interval.


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## tgstubbs1

Amtrak should put Boise back on their routes.


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## neroden

One of the things that's not entirely obvious to everyone is that the cost of laying track (ties, rail, etc) is almost immaterial to the cost of reconstructing an out-of-use line. It's practically a rounding error. Same with signalling, once you have a standard signalling system to use. The vast bulk of the cost is typically in civil engineering: earthworks, cuts, fills, subgrade and grade, drainage, bridges, tunnels, grade crossings, etc.

Now, one of the problems with the Phoenix West line is that, outside UP (who keep their information secret) nobody has done a proper evaluation of the state of the civil engineering along the line in many years. We could be lucky and it could be in great shape. Or all the bridges could need complete replacement and the roadbed could be undermined by waterflow. This makes it totally impossible to estimate the cost: someone would need to actually go and do a structural evaluation along the entire line to get a real cost estimate it. But I expect that the lowball cost numbers assumed everything was great, and the high-end cost numbers assumed everything was wrecked. Only actual inspections will tell you the real cost.


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## neroden

zephyr17 said:


> The big issue is getting an agency willing to acquire it and funds for it. UP can easily be persuaded to let it go, easy money for two streaks of rust that have gone unused for decades. That first step is a doozy, everything else is trivial by comparison (btw, the signal infrastructure will have to be entirely rebuilt. It was old and code line based, and is effectively gone). Getting the political buy in to do it is the actual hard part, especially in Arizona. There are no on line communities and no service to the non existent communities to build support on.
> 
> Doing Tucson-Phoenix corridor service on existing, serviceable track is the logical place to start to build ridership and awareness in southern Arizona. At least it goes through existing communities such as Mesa and Tempe. Maybe after such service is established and popular, a case for Corridor service to Yuma, the Coachella Valley and Los Angeles can be built. That is case, once built for Corridor service the Sunset can use it. Building a case based on the Sunset is the tail wagging the dog.
> 
> Starting with Phoenix West is simply a recipe for political failure.



Agreed 100% with this analysis -- the problem has always been political.


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## toddinde

Eric S said:


> Only $4 million?!? That just seems incredibly low. Unless, I suppose, UP has been maintaining the track to near-Class 4 levels. I would have guessed that costs would be at least one and more likely two orders of magnitude higher.


That was the State of Arizona’s study in 2010. It hasn’t been maintained. We’ll know soon how much it will cost now, but it’s pretty easy work.


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## toddinde

neroden said:


> Agreed 100% with this analysis -- the problem has always been political.


I don’t think UP will easily let it go. As I have been told, so take it with a grain of salt, the reason the line wasn’t pulled up is that the West Line is an easement for railroad purposes that would revert to the landowners if it were abandoned. SP laid communication cables along the right of way when they owned SPRINT. There may also be a pipeline? SP was big into pipelines. Remember “Trains, Trucks, Pipelines and Piggyback” was one of their slogans. Those communication lines are still there, and UP doesn’t want to lose them. Finally, there is a lot of talk about fast freights from LA to Phoenix. That’s not UP’s current business model, but it might be. If Amtrak/the infrastructure bill/other sources pay to rehab the line, the ROI to putting it back in service might make it worthwhile.


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## zephyr17

toddinde said:


> I don’t think UP will easily let it go. As I have been told, so take it with a grain of salt, the reason the line wasn’t pulled up is that the West Line is an easement for railroad purposes that would revert to the landowners if it were abandoned. SP laid communication cables along the right of way when they owned SPRINT. There may also be a pipeline? SP was big into pipelines. Remember “Trains, Trucks, Pipelines and Piggyback” was one of their slogans. Those communication lines are still there, and UP doesn’t want to lose them. Finally, there is a lot of talk about fast freights from LA to Phoenix. That’s not UP’s current business model, but it might be. If Amtrak/the infrastructure bill/other sources pay to rehab the line, the ROI to putting it back in service might make it worthwhile.


A passenger line owned by Amtrak or the state is still railroad use so the line would not revert to adjacent landowners. UP's continued ownership and use of communications lines could simply be included in the sales agreement. UP could specify to have right if first refusal if the state or Amtrak needed to rid themselves of it. In any case, any abandoned rail line, whether owned ROW or easement is offered to other rail operators first by regulation. UP could get it back for a song in that case, but the that regulatory case would require them to actually operate it. Right of first refusal would be easier and more straightforward.

Short distance (500 miles is short distance to a railroad) fast freight is not in ANY North American railroad's business model. It isn't profitable and the "short distance fast freight" market was ceded to the more flexible trucks decades ago. It isn't coming back any more than LCL business is coming back.

I still contend UP would be willing to let it go. Their real interests could easily be protected by agreement and it would be easy money for them if a serious buyer were to appear. That is the rub, under current political conditions, there simply aren't any serious buyers, at least for passenger rail use.


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## GoAmtrak

tgstubbs1 said:


> Amtrak should put Boise back on their routes.


I like this idea, but I'm afraid it won't happen for a long time. Boise is neither on a densely populated corridor nor is it part of Amtrak's expansion plans. New service to the beautiful Boise union station would be nice indeed.

For the Phoenix service, chances seem to be better for various reasons being mentioned. In addition to Phoenix, relatively large suburban communities like Tempe and Mesa could see passenger railway again. As mentioned by others, I think makes sense to start with a shorter distance, between Phoenix and Tucson, if possible. 

Does somebody know who possesses Phoenix union station? I would use it again as a the major train station. It is centrally located, around a bustling downtown. A new station building wouldn't have to be built, this saves holy tax dollars . A station in the suburban nowhere should be avoided, it should be in proper downtown Phoenix.


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## Quoctama

GoAmtrak said:


> I like this idea, but I'm afraid it won't happen for a long time. Boise is neither on a densely populated corridor nor is it part of Amtrak's expansion plans. New service to the beautiful Boise union station would be nice indeed.
> 
> For the Phoenix service, chances seem to be better for various reasons being mentioned. In addition to Phoenix, relatively large suburban communities like Tempe and Mesa could see passenger railway again. As mentioned by others, I think makes sense to start with a shorter distance, between Phoenix and Tucson, if possible.
> 
> Does somebody know who possesses Phoenix union station? I would use it again as a the major train station. It is centrally located, around a bustling downtown. A new station building wouldn't have to be built, this saves holy tax dollars . A station in the suburban nowhere should be avoided, it should be in proper downtown Phoenix.


The Phoenix Union Station is currently owned as a storage for a certain company; However, they're looking into selling it. It could get re-acquired by Amtrak again with it being sold again. Considering the city is starting to densify and commuter rail is in the making, new platforms would have to be done underground to reduce space and grade separate it from the busy streets. Tempe's new station* is already being constructed with space underground for future station plans and on top will be the preserved original station and new mixed-use buildings. Queen Creek has defined the spot for the station when it gets built although plans are foggy.

So in general, re-acquiring the station is possible and would be great. Just costs regarding new platforms and remodeling the areas within and without the station are still in the way and since we'd need to tunnel for new platforms, it would be just as expensive or only slightly less expensive than building a brand new station. New pathways and other walkable areas would also have to be made as the station does not have any direct transit connections until the commuter rail gets built. The closest line would be the South Central Light Rail scheduled to open in 2023 along 1st and Central Avenues (outside of downtown, it'll run on just Central Avenue) which is looking to be a 4-6 minute out of station connection from Union.

An idea would be to shift Union 2 blocks east onto the parking lots between 1st Avenue and 2nd Street. It would still need to be underground but gives it direct access to the South Central line, and actually makes the station a 3-minute walk from the existing Valley Metro LRT Line, along with CityScape where mixed-use buildings and hotels are. In the same distance, you can even walk to the Footprint Center. This would give it much higher ridership as when the commuter rail gets built you can easily get to and from downtown, and people from the suburbs and even Tucson not having to take their cars before and after events in Footprint Center furthers this. The ease of access simply by shifting it just a little is big, and although unlikely and expensive, this would be very beneficial to downtown!

*EDIT: The station by the way is in the middle of Downtown Tempe


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## fredmcain

An interesting side note on Maricopa here, Phoenix's very FIRST railroad ran directly from the mainline at Maricopa northward to Tempe then on to Phoenix. The UP's current West Chandler branch is actually a cut-back from that first line.

After the Picacho-Phoenix-Wellton line was opened in 1927, I think it was, the line to Maricopa south of West Chandler was abandoned. David Myrick has an interesting account on the Phoenix lines in his book _The Railroads of Arizona Volume II._ There was for a very short time actually TWO railroads between Phoenix and Mesa.

Sometimes history can repeat itself in strange ways - or at least it can rhyme. Today, Phoenix is once again at the end of a stub-end branch just as it was before 1927. And once again there are TWO rail lines between Phoenix and Mesa (The UP and the light rail transit line!).

Regards,
Fred M. Cain


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## neroden

Basically either the Phoenix city government or the Maricopa county government or the Arizona state government has to put money behind restoring intercity service to Phoenix. One of them does it, it happens. None of them do, it doesn't.


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## zephyr17

neroden said:


> Basically either the Phoenix city government or the Maricopa county government or the Arizona state government has to put money behind restoring intercity service to Phoenix. One of them does it, it happens. None of them do, it doesn't.


Nicely put. The issues preventing restoration to service to Phoenix are political, not the physical.


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## toddinde

zephyr17 said:


> Nicely put. The issues preventing restoration to service to Phoenix are political, not the physical.


It’s happening. Slowly but surely. There will be movement in the New Year.


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## zephyr17

toddinde said:


> It’s happening. Slowly but surely. There will be movement in the New Year.


Not following Arizona politics terribly closely, I wouldn't know. Could you provide some details for that? As it stands, it sounds rather like you consulted with an oracle


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## 87YJ

Not a liberal state @ the state level. Some hope that a line into Phoenix would increase ridership to a level that was cost effective. At this time 1 or 2 state reps even think about passenger rail and that is both D's & R's. But they will give you lip service for rail.  Just thinking is a state with over 6 million people is going to spend millions for 25 people getting off & on a train 6 times a week in Maricopa AZ. That could move up to 100 or more if in Phoenix, but no one can say if it is truly cost effective for a train that stops @ 5;30 AM and after 9:30 at night. Lots of think so's. JMHO


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## MARC Rider

87YJ said:


> Not a liberal state @ the state level. Some hope that a line into Phoenix would increase ridership to a level that was cost effective. At this time 1 or 2 state reps even think about passenger rail and that is both D's & R's. But they will give you lip service for rail.  Just thinking is a state with over 6 million people is going to spend millions for 25 people getting off & on a train 6 times a week in Maricopa AZ. That could move up to 100 or more if in Phoenix, but no one can say if it is truly cost effective for a train that stops @ 5;30 AM and after 9:30 at night. Lots of think so's. JMHO


But putting in the infrastructure to allow the Sunset to go through Phoenix would also enable corridor service between Phoenix and Tucson, and between Phoenix and Los Angele, and that would serve way more passengers and get more cars off the road than the Sunset alone would ever do.


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## neroden

87YJ said:


> Not a liberal state @ the state level.


If you check the population numbers, it's more liberal-voting than you might think. This is relatively new. It is largely because the Phoenix and Tucson populations have grown, nothing else has, and those two metro areas now *dominate* the state population. It's like Nevada, where the Vegas metro area is, IIRC, now a majority of the state population. To a first approximation, Nevada politics is Vegas politics, and to a first approximation, Arizona politics is Phoenix politics -- but that's new for Arizona.



> Just thinking is a state with over 6 million people is going to spend millions for 25 people getting off & on a train 6 times a week in Maricopa AZ.



Needs to be daily, at minimum, of course...


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## 87YJ

neroden said:


> If you check the population numbers, it's more liberal-voting than you might think.


To a degree. State has always stayed balanced even with the media being one sided. That is changing slowly as people here have been "turning off the news". 

To get rail to PHX it must be done with little to no state money. If they get a service from Phoenix to Tucson that would be the best start. Add on from there.

The new Amtrak CEO will spend the 22b on the NEC. 

I see some LD paint but the rest is just DC talk saying what you want to hear and doing little to nothing.


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## west point

Maybe as a start there would be a train that followed the Sunset times on the days it is not scheduled now just from Tucson <> PHX <> LAX ? Or better different times. The Hoosier did not work well on the Cardinal times.


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## fredmcain

alanh said:


> It’s happening. Slowly but surely. There will be movement in the New Year.



Well, now that the big infrastructure legislation has passed, the money will surely be there from the feds to restore the Phoenix-Wellton line to full operation. And it is, in fact, in Amtrak’s long-term plans. Amtrak planned to have the line back by 2035, I think, but that was about a year before the infrastructure bill passed so that might get moved up.

The rub is going to be that matching funds will be needed to attract the federal funds. Those could come from the State or from Union Pacific if it’s worth it to them.

I guess it just depends upon how important this project is to the people of Arizona and their elected state representatives.

YIKES! They just spent a staggering sum on a new 1.6 mile extension of the light rail transit line. Perhaps that money could’ve been better spent restoring the Phoenix-Wellton rail line but that’s only an opinion. Some would agree – others not.


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## Cal

fredmcain said:


> Amtrak planned to have the line back by 2035


Wasn't that a wishlist more than a "what we actually can and will try to get done"? Or am I in the wrong here?


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## George Harris

Cal said:


> Wasn't that a wishlist more than a "what we actually can and will try to get done"? Or am I in the wrong here?


Yes, it is a wish list. Any time you see far distant dates, 2035 in this case, the report should be put on the fiction shelf.

As to the passenger count, if I remember correctly, when the Sunset went through Phoenix, the passenger count was about 100 per train. After the shift to Maricopa, it dropped immediately to around 30 per train. It may not bounce all the way back, as a lot of the people involved in the 100 train have lost the habit, not even counting those that are no longer among the living having been replaced by those who don't even think "train".


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## justinslot

Bumping this thread because I am not sure my question deserves a new thread but it does relate to the thread topic: has anyone been on the shuttle that takes you from Maricopa to Phoenix and vice versa? It appears to be Amtrak Thruways 8601 and 8602, operated by Stagecoach Express. I'm sure it's a perfectly fine shuttle/bus/van but it's always nice to know what to expect in these situations...I will be doing Phoenix to Maricopa in December, Thruway 8601. The Stagecoach Express Yelp reviews are not super great...

EDIT: I just realized what subforum this thread is in. I may need to start a thread in the main forum for this specific question (I only found this thread searching for "stagecoach" though the use of that word in this thread did not involve the shuttle company Amtrak is using for the Sunset.)


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## fredmcain

justinslot said:


> Bumping this thread because I am not sure my question deserves a new thread but it does relate to the thread topic: has anyone been on the shuttle that takes you from Maricopa to Phoenix and vice versa? It appears to be Amtrak Thruways 8601 and 8602, operated by Stagecoach Express. I'm sure it's a perfectly fine shuttle/bus/van but it's always nice to know what to expect in these situations...I will be doing Phoenix to Maricopa in December, Thruway 8601. The Stagecoach Express Yelp reviews are not super great...
> 
> EDIT: I just realized what subforum this thread is in. I may need to start a thread in the main forum for this specific question (I only found this thread searching for "stagecoach" though the use of that word in this thread did not involve the shuttle company Amtrak is using for the Sunset.)


Justin,

I wish I could provide you with more information on this but, unfortunately, I’ve never tried to do this. Last winter when we went out, we got off at Flagstaff and had a driver come up and fetch us at the depot. That worked pretty well.

From my perspective, since I would be coming from the Upper Midwest, that probably works better for me than going to Maricopa. However, if someone were to travel to Phoenix from Houston or Dallas, Flagstaff would not be much of an option.

From my point of view, Chicago to Maricopa takes nearly 24 hours longer than to just take the _Southwest Chief_ to Flag. If the _Sunset _were to be returned to the Phoenix line, the extra day on the train would be worth it to me if the train would take me right into town.

Unfortunately, the resurrection of the West Phoenix line does not look like it’s gonna happen any time soon if it ever happens at all. I think it’s a darn shame. There is simply no reason to not revive the West Phoenix line other than politics. In my own personal, honest and humble opinion, all the State would have to do would be to offer the U.P. some desirable property tax abatements in exchange for reviving the line. That would seem like a no-brainer to me.

Unfortunately, if they were to do that, then a lot of other businesses in the state would complain as to, “Where is _MY_ tax break?”. So, yeah, it’s partly political.

With the general direction that the Country is moving in and specifically with Amtrak’s direction in particular, I have become very pessimistic about huge improvements coming to Amtrak in spite of the money that Joe Biden and Congress has given them.

Bob Johnston had a good article on equipment issues in the most recent issue of TRAINS Magazine.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, IN


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## GDRRiley

fredmcain said:


> Unfortunately, the resurrection of the West Phoenix line does not look like it’s gonna happen any time soon if it ever happens at all. I think it’s a darn shame. There is simply no reason to not revive the West Phoenix line other than politics. In my own personal, honest and humble opinion, all the State would have to do would be to offer the U.P. some desirable property tax abatements in exchange for reviving the line. That would seem like a no-brainer to me.


Its going to need to happen as part of the Connect US plan. There is 3-4RT planned between Phoenix and Tuscon with 1-2RT between LA and Phoenix (not sure if its daily sunset limited+local train or just the daily sunset limited)



fredmcain said:


> With the general direction that the Country is moving in and specifically with Amtrak’s direction in particular, I have become very pessimistic about huge improvements coming to Amtrak in spite of the money that Joe Biden and Congress has given them.
> 
> Bob Johnston had a good article on equipment issues in the most recent issue of TRAINS Magazine.


UP wants a lot of investment in extra tracks which is why Amtrak has avoided doing it till now. with funds they could do it and the state of california is planning to invest itself in sections of it which would lower the federal cost.


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## Joe from PA

When we arrived in Maricopa, our train was running 4 hours late. We were dumped out at 1 am to NO transportation options. Uber did not answer our 'phone. Get a pickup service ahead of time to meet your train WHEN it arrives.


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## texline

I live in Maricopa. You probably won't find an uber or lyft if it is really late. If you are ticketed on shuttle to Phoenix, the van is there, I see it every time I go by. There is a taxi service here. There are a lot of private drivers here and will take you to Phoenix I think for $60 now. Part of the issue is our highway to Phoenix, the 347. Not too many people look forward to driving it, if there is a crash, which is frequent, no one moves. No way around it. The drivers I talk to say they don't mind doing local stuff but no 347 at night. And the drivers that are available or usually busy taking people from Ak Chin casino to wherever. Sorry not a guarantee of transportation but if you get in by 11 pm, you usually can find something. The morning train is not usually an issue as more drivers are willing to do that run. Happy travels.


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## NES28

FRA's SW Regional Plan showed that LA-PHX would justify HSR. Obviously, UP would not allow it to be constructed adjacent to its tracks without a barrier wall. Between PHX and Coachella new construction would likely be in the I-10 corridor. This would bypass the old, out of service, line west of Phoenix.


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## PVD

texline said:


> I live in Maricopa. You probably won't find an uber or lyft if it is really late. If you are ticketed on shuttle to Phoenix, the van is there, I see it every time I go by. There is a taxi service here. There are a lot of private drivers here and will take you to Phoenix I think for $60 now. Part of the issue is our highway to Phoenix, the 347. Not too many people look forward to driving it, if there is a crash, which is frequent, no one moves. No way around it. The drivers I talk to say they don't mind doing local stuff but no 347 at night. And the drivers that are available or usually busy taking people from Ak Chin casino to wherever. Sorry not a guarantee of transportation but if you get in by 11 pm, you usually can find something. The morning train is not usually an issue as more drivers are willing to do that run. Happy travels.


My sister lives in Chandler, but last time out I took the SWC to Flagstaff and took the shuttle to Phoenix. My brother in law was flying out on business, and I was taking his car, so shuttle to the airport was great. SWC was everyday instead of 3 days a week, calling times were better, and pricing for roomette was better. Maricopa would be way closer for them, but they don't like the drive either.


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## justinslot

Thanks for the replies, everyone, especially since I asked my question in a thread in the wrong forum for general travel-related questions.

My plan is to go LAX --> MRC, scheduled for a 6:30 AM arrival, so there should be no issues related to a middle of the night arrival. Actually at this point I am thinking about just going to the casino for the day/night after I arrive as the Caesars corporation is generously offering me a free room, so I may not be on the official Amtrak shuttle at all.


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