# SunRail!



## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight

This sounds interesting... we have "TriRail" in South FL, and now it appears that "SunRail" is coming to a station near you someday (if you live in Central FL).

story here

OBS gone freight...


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## WhoozOn1st

I'd like to see that logo when it becomes available, and the 400 losing suggestions for the name. I think "Orange Line" wouldn't be bad. Or maybe SinkholeRail or GatorTrax.


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## battalion51

Hmm...I'm starting to see a theme in Florida Commuter service. xxxRail. :lol:


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## PetalumaLoco

What's wrong with Category5 Rail? :blink:


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight

WhoozOn1st said:


> I'd like to see that logo when it becomes available, and the 400 losing suggestions for the name. I think "Orange Line" wouldn't be bad. Or maybe SinkholeRail or GatorTrax.



Here's a link to see the logo. I didn't post a pic as I am not sure whether it is copyrighted or trademarked yet.

OBS gone freight...


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## Joel N. Weber II

PetalumaLoco said:


> What's wrong with Category5 Rail? :blink:


Would that be a 90 MPH passenger train with RJ-45 connectors at every seat?


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## George Harris

PetalumaLoco said:


> What's wrong with Category5 Rail? :blink:


Can you explain your question?


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## TampAGS

Amtrak OBS Gone Freight said:


> This sounds interesting... we have "TriRail" in South FL, and now it appears that "SunRail" is coming to a station near you someday (if you live in Central FL).


Oh, but it wouldn't be Florida without a controversy (not that we are alone in that aspect).

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/custom...0,2772281.story

 

It seems the vehicles planned for use by SunRail are not going to be available due to the demise of Colorado Railcar. Instead they are going with traditional engines and rail cars, since Colorado Railcar was the "only" company to manufacture the desired DMU's.

 

There are many other companies making DMU's, but the article fails to point this out. They also fail to mention that the specs for the project were written so specifically that Colorado Railcar was the only company able to submit a bid for the contract. Not a very strange coincidence, once you consider the campaign contributions made by the company to the congressman who is pushing the project.


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## AlanB

TampAGS said:


> It seems the vehicles planned for use by SunRail are not going to be available due to the demise of Colorado Railcar. Instead they are going with traditional engines and rail cars, since Colorado Railcar was the "only" company to manufacture the desired DMU's.


I'm not sure if it's a Florida requirement, but I think that only CRC could meet most "Built in America" requirements. Of course now even they can't meet those requirements, much less build the cars.


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## TampAGS

AlanB said:


> TampAGS said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems the vehicles planned for use by SunRail are not going to be available due to the demise of Colorado Railcar. Instead they are going with traditional engines and rail cars, since Colorado Railcar was the "only" company to manufacture the desired DMU's.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if it's a Florida requirement, but I think that only CRC could meet most "Built in America" requirements. Of course now even they can't meet those requirements, much less build the cars.
Click to expand...

Wikipedia lists Eikon International, out of Montgomery, AL as a producer of DMU's. They are still in business, or al least their website seems to indicate so. It looks like they do strictly streetcar-type vehicles, though it does indicate they can be self-propelled. 

 

What? You mean we're not the world leader in rail-tech? Shocking.

 

The thing is they touted the benefits of using DMU's vs. traditional configurations in their initial song and dance to taxpayers. Now they're like, "Benefits?". 

 

I agree that especially now, as much of the project as possible should be American-built. Though if they were to open it to foreign suppliers, it's not like Florida isn't well-known to Bombardier.


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## Joel N. Weber II

TampAGS said:


> I agree that especially now, as much of the project as possible should be American-built. Though if they were to open it to foreign suppliers, it's not like Florida isn't well-known to Bombardier.


Anyone who's truly concerned about American jobs shouldn't be shy about arguing in favor of more track construction. Although I think some historical track construction in the US was done by people who didn't have the permanent right to work in the US.

I also worry that the consequences of delaying rail car purchases in terms of the increased need for foreign energy may be worse than the consequences of using foreign built rail cars would be.


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## TampAGS

WhoozOn1st said:


> I'd like to see that logo when it becomes available, and the 400 losing suggestions for the name. I think "Orange Line" wouldn't be bad. Or maybe SinkholeRail or GatorTrax.


I just ran across the list of the 400 suggested names they didn't chose. It was published on SunRail's website.

 

It is an Acrobat pdf file: http://www.cfrail.com/Files/Train/5.pdf

There are some good candidates... I'm sure some folks probably thought they had a winner. And there are some examples of the opposite where folks clearly weren't thinking at all. :lol:


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## George Harris

AlanB said:


> TampAGS said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems the vehicles planned for use by SunRail are not going to be available due to the demise of Colorado Railcar. Instead they are going with traditional engines and rail cars, since Colorado Railcar was the "only" company to manufacture the desired DMU's.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if it's a Florida requirement, but I think that only CRC could meet most "Built in America" requirements. Of course now even they can't meet those requirements, much less build the cars.
Click to expand...

The other part beyond "Buy American" was that CRC built a car that met the current FRA crashworthiness requirements. None of the foreign built cars or cars built to their designs come close to that. For the most part thase manufacturers claim that it would make the cars too heavy, but I am a skeptic on that. I feel it is more of we like our standard designs adn feel you should take them, who cares what your real requireements are?

The CRC double deckers are really tall. Their top is around 18 feet above the rail, compared to something like 16'-3" for a Superliner.


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## SUNSETLIMITED01

I think they may use either MP36PH OR MP40PH engines and possibly new bombardier bi-level coaches. I don't know about single level cars possibly they may use the comet cars similar to the ones NJT and SEPTA use.


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## battalion51

I would not be surprised if they didn't look into used motive power. Look at Tri-Rail. Only three of their engines were delivered new, those being 807-809 F-40's built by MK. Everything else was bought used, from Conrail, Amtrak, and NS. It wouldn't shock me in the least to see some of Tri-Rail's excess power at least temporarily reassigned to Central Florida as they build a fleet there. I don't think you would see anyone objecting in a major way to Bombardier built cars being used. The majority of the American rail fleet is Canadian built, so they'd have a hard time objecting. The big money in a project like this one is in the rail construction. And ALL of that is American.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight

Well.... looks like the third time is a charm! "Sunrail," the commuter rail for Central Florida, has finally passed in the Florida Senate along with the needed additional funding for the existing "Tri-Rail" down in South Florida.

C-mon Chuckie (Charlie Crist), hurry up and sign it!

Story can be found HERE.

OBS gone freight...


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## George Harris

Good luck to them. Paula Dockery of Lakeland is opposing it. They lost out on the FOX and she seems to be looking for vengance by opposing ever other rail project in the state.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight

George Harris said:


> Good luck to them. Paula Dockery of Lakeland is opposing it. They lost out on the FOX and she seems to be looking for vengance by opposing ever other rail project in the state.



George, it is a done deal!!! Mrs Dockery of course was one of the "no" votes, but she has lost her battle this time!!!

After two attempts where the State Senate shot it down after the House approved it, the Senate finally voted yes to commuter rail in Central Florida this time around. Here is another link to the story with a video. CLICK HERE.

Today Tues Dec 8th, 2009 was a good day for rail in Florida!

Finally, "Sunrail" is now coming soon to a Central Florida station near you!!!!

OBS gone freight...


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## DET63

It may be a done deal as far as the Florida legislature is concerned, but there can always be court challenges. Still, a 27-10 vote in the Florida State Senate is a pretty powerful endorsement.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight

DET63 said:


> It may be a done deal as far as the Florida legislature is concerned, but there can always be court challenges. Still, a 27-10 vote in the Florida State Senate is a pretty powerful endorsement.


True, but i kinda doubt there will be any court challenges. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it at this time.

It passed because several issues with it were hashed out. One of the critical ones was the an agreement with the union, and one of the others being the liability provisions between the state and CSX.

Mrs. Dockery is running for governor this next go around, too. So I doubt she will cause any further problems with this issue, though if she is successful in that venture, then she may try to make things difficult for commuter rail or the high speed rail.

And also the fact the state now stands to gain with some Obama stimulus funds for that high speed rail.

I am a little surprised at the margin of victory, myself. It had been so close the last two times! So yeah, that is a pretty powerful endorsement!

OBS gone freight...


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## battalion51

Senator Dean is staying at my hotel right now, umm, AWKWARD!


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## TampAGS

Amtrak OBS Gone Freight said:


> Mrs. Dockery is running for governor this next go around, too. So I doubt she will cause any further problems with this issue, though if she is successful in that venture, then she may try to make things difficult for commuter rail or the high speed rail.


_"H__ickory dickory Dockery_

_Our transit system's a mockery._

_Now, Sunrail's won!_

_(Get over it, hon...)_

_Hickory dickory Dockery_._"_

 ​


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## SunsetLimited01

According to what I heard on NEWS 13 The Agenda I heard they are most likely going to use push-pull trains for SunRail.


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## battalion51

Since Colorado Railcar went under, that's pretty much their only option. It's not necessarily a bad thing. There's a lot to be said for the commonality for the state with the Bombardier fleet that dominates in South Florida. Odds are that's who the coaches will come from. The interesting thing to see will be where they get the power from. Do they buy new motors from MPI? Do they go buy used motors from Amtrak, another commuter agency, or a freight road? Who will get the operations/maintenance contracts? A lot of stuff is about to go down...


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## AlanB

While I wouldn't argue against the commonality, which could be a good thing; CRC is dead, but it's rail car is not. A new company has brought out the designs and patents and is preparing to market the DMU's.


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## SunsetLimited01

AlanB said:


> While I wouldn't argue against the commonality, which could be a good thing; CRC is dead, but it's rail car is not. A new company has brought out the designs and patents and is preparing to market the DMU's.


That is true the company known as U.S. Railcar. Even though that happened The Agenda on News 13 never mentioned DMUs other than the Colorado Railcar company shutting down they flat out mentioned push-pull, but who knows what we will see in the next 1 1/2 to 2 years


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## Green Maned Lion

AlanB said:


> While I wouldn't argue against the commonality, which could be a good thing; CRC is dead, but it's rail car is not. A new company has brought out the designs and patents and is preparing to market the DMU's.


CRC went out of business for two reasons. One, Rader ran it and he couldn't run a McDonalds located in Times Square in a street level store front gifted to him for free. Two, the car design is crap.

I'm sorry to see it live on. I hope U.S. Railcar takes their brand new carbon steel antique and put it out of our misery.


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## battalion51

Governor Crist signed the bill into law yesterday (16th) according to USA Today.


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## WhoozOn1st

battalion51 said:


> Governor Crist signed the bill into law yesterday (16th) according to USA Today.


Why a Tallahassee resident is citing USA Today on local news I don't know, but from the Tallahassee Democrat (maybe paper's name is why?):

Gov. Crist signs rail bill

"Lawmakers agreed to spend $432 million to buy track from CSX railroad in Central Florida for Orlando's SunRail commuter rail and a link to the Tampa area. They also pledged $13 million to $15 million a year to subsidize Tri-Rail in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade Counties and to create a $60-million-a-year State Rail Enterprise to develop future services."


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## George Harris

Here are some statements by CSX:

http://jacksonville.com/interact/blog/abel...d_will_cost_bil

At the end of the article is a comment by a "reader" who trots out all the usual anti-rail arguements. I put reader in quotations because I suspect that it is most likely from someone in one of the dedicated anti-rail organixations that trolls for anything pro-rail so they can disparage it.


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## battalion51

WhoozOn1st said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Governor Crist signed the bill into law yesterday (16th) according to USA Today.
> 
> 
> 
> Why a Tallahassee resident is citing USA Today on local news I don't know, but from the Tallahassee Democrat (maybe paper's name is why?):
> 
> Gov. Crist signs rail bill
> 
> "Lawmakers agreed to spend $432 million to buy track from CSX railroad in Central Florida for Orlando's SunRail commuter rail and a link to the Tampa area. They also pledged $13 million to $15 million a year to subsidize Tri-Rail in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade Counties and to create a $60-million-a-year State Rail Enterprise to develop future services."
Click to expand...

I was in Atlanta and staying at a hotel. Had to do something to kill the time while I waited for Room Service. :lol:


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## DET63

George Harris said:


> Here are some statements by CSX:
> http://jacksonville.com/interact/blog/abel...d_will_cost_bil
> 
> At the end of the article is a comment by a "reader" who trots out all the usual anti-rail arguements. I put reader in quotations because I suspect that it is most likely from someone in one of the dedicated anti-rail organixations that trolls for anything pro-rail so they can disparage it.


You talking about this?



> Submitted by Publius on Fri. 12/18/2009 at 8:34 amBoth [_sic_] the Palm Beach Post, Miami Herald and Tampa Tribune have, since last week, been asking questions about the potential collusion, and subsequent cover-up of communications between CSX and the FDOT in the development of this idiotic legislation. Here are a few links from those papers that aren't afraid to challenge CSX, and to take a stand for the people of Florida, who are being fleeced by the rail deal:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/dec/13/co-crist-should-veto-runaway-giv...
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2009/12/is-that-a-choochoo-or-a-pancake.h...
> 
> 
> 
> http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2009/12/fdot-to-dockery-the...
> 
> 
> 
> Rail options for the state are not a bad thing on their face. But this is just a bad deal for tax payers (overpayment and liability assumption), hammered out for the benefit of the fat cats in the metaphorical back rooms of Florida politics as usual. Time for the Jacksonville media to open their eyes and fairly inform the public of the whole story.


There is a comment following that appears to address some of the issues raised by the poster.


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## AlanB

That would be my comment.


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## George Harris

When you click on Mr. Publis, you will find comments on five newspaper articles. Three are concerning SunRail, all exactly the same in tone and really close in words to the one we have seen here. the others are two comments on an article about Sarah Palin (very negative to save anyone else the botrher of looking) and one disparging the northeast Florida region that was made on an article having something about woment in Jacksonville in businees or polictics (did not read the article) Now we know.


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## TransitRider

Be honest with you, I will not ride or support SunRail, it will be a failure and waste of taxpayers money. I would rather give the money to Amtrak to upgrade the system and make it more effective for State of Florida to run statewide train service. This is the most biggest mistake ever I seen in my life. Sorry.


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## Green Maned Lion

TransitRider said:


> Be honest with you, I will not ride or support SunRail, it will be a failure and waste of taxpayers money. I would rather give the money to Amtrak to upgrade the system and make it more effective for State of Florida to run statewide train service. This is the most biggest mistake ever I seen in my life. Sorry.


Sunrail is commuter service. You have to start small, and this is small. Frankly, though, I think spending money on transit in Florida in general is a waste of money. The people in that dreary, rotten little state seem to think that the only way to travel is by car. Not that all Floridians think that way. Just most of them. They use 6-lane roads for purposes that, here in central Jersey, 2 lanes would be quite sufficient.


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## George Harris

Green Maned Lion said:


> Sunrail is commuter service. You have to start small, and this is small. Frankly, though, I think spending money on transit in Florida in general is a waste of money. The people in that dreary, rotten little state seem to think that the only way to travel is by car. Not that all Floridians think that way. Just most of them. They use 6-lane roads for purposes that, here in central Jersey, 2 lanes would be quite sufficient.


I guess it is a matter of perspective. The tops on my list for "dreary rotten little states" would be 1. New Jersey, 2. New York, and 3. Pennsylvania, at least the eastern part. And some of the things I see in roadwork in New Jersey make me wonder if the people who designed them had ever driven a car, anywhere. The only thing worse than the road conditions in New Jersey, and I mean pavement, alignment, and intersections, would be the signage.

If Florida is so basd, why is it so cluttered up with Yankee retirees? Most of whom vote with enthusiasm against education spending and any of the other of the nromal state services that would be of benefit to anybody under 60.


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## Hamhock

George Harris said:


> If Florida is so bad, why is it so cluttered up with Yankee retirees


Because old people like warm weather.


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## Rail Freak

Green Maned Lion said:


> TransitRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Be honest with you, I will not ride or support SunRail, it will be a failure and waste of taxpayers money. I would rather give the money to Amtrak to upgrade the system and make it more effective for State of Florida to run statewide train service. This is the most biggest mistake ever I seen in my life. Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> Sunrail is commuter service. You have to start small, and this is small. Frankly, though, I think spending money on transit in Florida in general is a waste of money. The people in that dreary, rotten little state seem to think that the only way to travel is by car. Not that all Floridians think that way. Just most of them. They use 6-lane roads for purposes that, here in central Jersey, 2 lanes would be quite sufficient.
Click to expand...


If you've ever been to FLA, you would notice all those using the 6 lanes had Jersey Plates!!!

RF :lol:


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## battalion51

Yes, the dreary state that's also the tourism capital of the United States. :unsure:

Regardless, you've got to start somewhere. Tri-Rail has had tremendous growth since its simple beginnings back in 89. They are moving tens of thousands of people on a daily basis now, much quicker than you could ever dream of on 95 during rush hour. Every person that gets on the train, is one less person on the road. I don't know about you, but I'm an advocate of train service in places that need it. Orlando is a market that needs it. You may not have service or volume right away like you do in the Northeast markets, but you're in a completely different market and growth stage.


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## MattW

Having been in NJ on vacation recently, I can attest to the bad road designs. It seemed like you practically need to be route-certified for those roads the same way train crews are.

Everyone thinks about Florida for its tourist side, but hardly anyone thinks about it for the people who live there. I think this SunRail will succeed quite nicely and will provide much need service up and down the I-4 corridor. I just wish the Georgia legislators were as smart as Florida's...


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## Bob Dylan

MattW said:


> Having been in NJ on vacation recently, I can attest to the bad road designs. It seemed like you practically need to be route-certified for those roads the same way train crews are.Everyone thinks about Florida for its tourist side, but hardly anyone thinks about it for the people who live there. I think this SunRail will succeed quite nicely and will provide much need service up and down the I-4 corridor. I just wish the Georgia legislators were as smart as Florida's...


In a related story: Austin is a tourist town of note also and yet we have perhaps the worst road system in the US, not to mention that our infamous Redline Light rail is still not running and it's 2010!!! (Have to admit that the roads are clogged with cars from California,Michigan,Ohio etc. :lol: )

The joke down here is that all traffice engineers are Aggies (Texas A&M) so that's their revenge on Austin for the annual whippings the Horns usually inflict on the Farmers!(their other nickname!) Go Horns, drown the tide!!!


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## gswager

jimhudson said:


> In a related story: Austin is a tourist town of note also and yet we have perhaps the worst road system in the US, not to mention that our infamous Redline Light rail is still not running and it's 2010!!! (Have to admit that the roads are clogged with cars from California,Michigan,Ohio etc. :lol: )
> The joke down here is that all traffice engineers are Aggies (Texas A&M) so that's their revenge on Austin for the annual whippings the Horns usually inflict on the Farmers!(their other nickname!) Go Horns, drown the tide!!!


I drove in Austin about two years ago! It's so curvy, thanks to the hillsides! Thanks goodness that my mind a really good sense of direction!

I followed the tracks, starting at Liberty Hill towards downtown Austin and it's still not running! Go Tech!


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## SunsetLimited01

Now the equipment for Sunrail has been announced and could be ordered in July.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/...0,1778821.story


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## battalion51

I'm glad to see they're using their head and going with the tried and true technology of Bombardier Bi-Levels. I still don't know how I feel about MPIs motors though. I'm a little surprised they're not buying used motors though based on Tri-Rail's history. Of the sixteen motors on their roster only three have been bought new (807-809), everything else was bought used and overhauled.


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## Green Maned Lion

I disagree heavily. After the structural inadequacy of the Bombardier/Hawker-Siddeley has been graphically proven- TWICE - under Metrolink, I'm surprised people still use them, let alone buy new ones.


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## MattW

At the very least, the article could include a real picture of the FrontRunner service rather than a CG rendering.

Also, I'm not sure where they get that "the safety in quiet zones will be dramatically improved" line. From what I've read, quiet zones increase the accident rate by as much as 25%!

As to the issue of electrification, I agree! I wish the entire country could be linked by 25kV 60Hz AC over head catenary. Start a few commuter corridors, then connect them into a regional corridor, then connect to those together and voila! Cross-country electrification.

Electrify the SunRail system, electrify a Jacksonville system, electrify the tracks around Atlanta, then connect Atlanta's wires to Jacksonville's wires and suddenly, you have ATL-ORL electrified intercity service!


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## battalion51

Green Maned Lion said:


> I disagree heavily. After the structural inadequacy of the Bombardier/Hawker-Siddeley has been graphically proven- TWICE - under Metrolink, I'm surprised people still use them, let alone buy new ones.


Yeah because running head on into locomotives usually produces very happy results.


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## Green Maned Lion

The fact of the matter is, in the Chase disaster, the AEM-7 did NOT telescope the first Amfleet. It was a mess. People died. The car was totaled. But its basic integrity withstood the impact. At 110 mph.

In the case of Metrolink, twice locomotives have telescoped into the first car. Because the welds on the Bombardier Bi-Levels split like zippers. Accidents are never pretty, but in this instance, it is the poor design of this car that caused the telescoping and a good portion of the deaths.


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## George Harris

Green Maned Lion said:


> The fact of the matter is, in the Chase disaster, the AEM-7 did NOT telescope the first Amfleet. It was a mess. People died. The car was totaled. But its basic integrity withstood the impact. At 110 mph.
> In the case of Metrolink, twice locomotives have telescoped into the first car. Because the welds on the Bombardier Bi-Levels split like zippers. Accidents are never pretty, but in this instance, it is the poor design of this car that caused the telescoping and a good portion of the deaths.


If you want to see some truly scarey outcomes of vehicle integrity, or lack thereof, google Eschede derailment or Eschede crash or some such and look at the pictures of coaches turned into kits of parts.


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## Green Maned Lion

I already had a mini heart attack seeing that one before, don't need that pleasure twice!


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## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> The fact of the matter is, in the Chase disaster, the AEM-7 did NOT telescope the first Amfleet. It was a mess. People died. The car was totaled. But its basic integrity withstood the impact. At 110 mph.
> In the case of Metrolink, twice locomotives have telescoped into the first car. Because the welds on the Bombardier Bi-Levels split like zippers. Accidents are never pretty, but in this instance, it is the poor design of this car that caused the telescoping and a good portion of the deaths.


The most incredible piece of luck at Chase was that the most heavily damaged car was unoccupied at the time of the accident.

Frankly I don't understand why the old HS lozenges now built by Bombardier are still being ordered unless of course there has been some significant structural improvements made that I am not aware of. If you want bi-level cars go for the Superliner/Surfliner based body. They have proved their strength in accidents over and over again. Of course add extra collision posts at the cab end of cab cars.


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## MattW

They're still being built and ordered probably because they're the most widespread commuter car right now in the U.S. The only other cars that even come close are the Kawasaki bilevels on the NEC to fit inside the NYP tunnels and the Nippon Sharyo Gallery cars on METRA and VRE. Part of this low cost has got to be the continued use by GO Transit. Looking at Wikipedia (yes, yes, I know) it appears GO has ordered every model Bombardier Bilevel model 1 through 7 (which admittedly, were another company until model 5).


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## jis

MattW said:


> They're still being built and ordered probably because they're the most widespread commuter car right now in the U.S. The only other cars that even come close are the Kawasaki bilevels on the NEC to fit inside the NYP tunnels and the Nippon Sharyo Gallery cars on METRA and VRE. Part of this low cost has got to be the continued use by GO Transit. Looking at Wikipedia (yes, yes, I know) it appears GO has ordered every model Bombardier Bilevel model 1 through 7 (which admittedly, were another company until model 5).


Were you going to mention the Bombardier Bi-levels that NJT uses too? They are way more solidly built when compared to the HS lozenges. Afterall there are about twice the number of those when compared to the Kawasaki bilevels that LIRR uses. Or were you believing that the Kawasaki bilevels used by MBTA are the same as those used by LIRR? They are very different cars. The MBTA ones do not fit in the New York tunnels.


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## Green Maned Lion

Of course, NJT's are known as Multilevels, probably just to deferential the stainless steel NJT units from the taller, cheaper, and roomier Bi-Levels.

Bombardier Bi-Levels are popular for one reason, and that reason is that they are cheap.


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## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> Of course, NJT's are known as Multilevels, probably just to deferential the stainless steel NJT units from the taller, cheaper, and roomier Bi-Levels.
> Bombardier Bi-Levels are popular for one reason, and that reason is that they are cheap.


But all of the eastern so called bi-levels really are tri-levels anyway  AFAIK only the Superliners and Surfliners are true bi-levels.


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## MattW

My mistake, I thought the bilevels used on MARC were the same as on MBTA and NJT. They do look similar, moreso than the C3s LIRR uses.


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## jis

MattW said:


> My mistake, I thought the bilevels used on MARC were the same as on MBTA and NJT. They do look similar, moreso than the C3s LIRR uses.


Nothing to be ashamed of though. You are about the 12th person to have made that erroneous assumption. One even went so far as to suggest that because MP36s are no higher than the MARC bilevels, and since MARC bileves fit in NYP therefore MP36s and indeed F40s should have no problem getting into NYP. Oh well. The logic was impeccable, the basic fact set was wrong.


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