# Amtrak California's Comet Cars (removed from regular service)



## rickycourtney (Jan 23, 2015)

Browsing through the board packet for today's San Joaquin Joint Powers Authority meeting and I found some really interesting information in the minutes from the _last_ board meeting...



> Caltrans has directed Amtrak to remove the Comet Cars from regular service. [Director of Operations, Brian Schmidt] said, however, that removing them from service and not having them operate at all are two different things. Mr. Schmidt said that the State is not looking to “mothball” the Comet Cars trainsets. He said that they would be using them for high-ridership periods, and as emergency equipment (if bi-level trainset couldn’t go out they could use the Comet Car trainset as a replacement), he said also when they had a lot of overhauls a Comet Car trainset might be utilized. Vice Chair Perea asked “Everywhere? Surfliners? Capitols?” Mr. Schmidt replied “Everywhere”.
> 
> Mr. Schmidt said that now the Comet Cars are part of the Northern California fleet, but in the future they would also be used down south. He said that if a Capitol Corridor train went out of service, then a Comet Car trainset would be used to replace that train. Mr. Schmidt said there is also discussion of one of the Comet Car trainsets going to the Surfliners to replace a single-level Horizon Car trainset which is being leased from Amtrak. He said that this could result in a cost savings for the State. He said that there are a lot of discussions going on about how best to utilize the Comet Cars to best serve the State. Mr. Schmidt reiterated that the Comet Cars would go to whichever service needed equipment.


Very interesting that the Comet cars are coming off of regular service on the San Joaquin and equally interesting that they could be seen on more routes and could be used to replace the single-level Pacific Surfliner trainset.

For background... the San Joaquin is Amtrak's fifth-busiest service, carrying a record 1.2 million passengers in FY2013 and ridership has been growing at a pace any route would be envious of (+6.6% in FY2013, +7.2 in FY2012, +9.2 in FY2011, +13.2 in FY2010).

The Comet cars were added to the San Joaquin in October 2013 (the start of FY2014) with the hope that they would help increase ridership on the line by adding more available seats, but FY2014 was the first time in several years that ridership stagnated (down 1.3% to a still a respectable 1,188,228 passengers). I'm not saying that the two are directly connected, but the timing is very interesting.

I have mixed feelings about the Comet cars. Beech Grove did a great job overhauling them, they are much nicer than the Amtrak owned Horizon cars and the seats are more comfortable than the bi-level cars, but they are a drag compared to the bi-level fleet California passengers are accustomed to. Like most high-level cars used with low-level platforms, the steps are steep and the doorways are narrow. They also lack on-board electric wheelchair lifts and passenger-accessable bike racks.


----------



## Paulus (Jan 23, 2015)

Reaction on Twitter by Surfliner regulars when it was brought up the other week was highly in favor of having it replace the current Horizon/Amfleet set.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Jan 23, 2015)

Looks like Amtrak will be getting some Horizon Cars back soon! Question is where will they be utilized?

Having just ridden the various routes in California during the Gathering, I can say that I liked the Comets but not the Horizons, which in most peoples opinions are the worst cars Amtrak uses, closely followed by the Diner Lites and the Cafe/Lounge cars used in the East!


----------



## Long Train Runnin' (Jan 23, 2015)

That is a shame. I had a chance to ride them this October and found them to be very nice. Being from NJ I was in almost disbelief that they could transform the cars from my youth with hideous orange bench seating into something that felt very much like an Amfleet 1


----------



## MikefromCrete (Jan 23, 2015)

I doubt if Amtrak will be getting these cars. It looks like California will be using them as a reserve fleet for busy periods, maintenance substitutions, route expansion.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jan 23, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> I doubt if Amtrak will be getting these cars. It looks like California will be using them as a reserve fleet for busy periods, maintenance substitutions, route expansion.


You're right, Amtrak won't get the California-owned Comet cars, but there was never any discussion about that. 
Amtrak might get their horizon cars, currently being leased for the Pacific Surfliner, returned back to them sooner than expected.



Long Train Runnin' said:


> That is a shame. I had a chance to ride them this October and found them to be very nice. Being from NJ I was in almost disbelief that they could transform the cars from my youth with hideous orange bench seating into something that felt very much like an Amfleet 1


Agreed. Beech Grove did a great job refurbishing them, but they've been extremely unpopular with most passengers on the San Joaquin (who've probably never been on an Amfleet car).


----------



## Bob Dylan (Jan 23, 2015)

I was referring to the Horizon cars Mike, not the Comets which I liked!


----------



## desertflyer (Jan 23, 2015)

The Comets are actually still in service (as of last week) but I expect them to be pulled any day now. I don't think many people dislike the Comets, except for conductors manually lifting wheelchairs, but they don't feel quite as nice or modern of an experience to the average traveler. Some screws are starting to make their way out of the ceiling and moving between cars is noisy and dark. Some pictures from last Friday Jan 16th, train 717:






















For comparison here is the top level of a California Car. More modern look, not quite as nice of seats, but still not bad. The Comets seats are nothing to write home about either. A big perk of the CA Cars is powered doors between cars and a quieter ride.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jan 23, 2015)

desertflyer said:


> For comparison here is the top level of a California Car. More modern look, not quite as nice of seats, but still not bad. The Comets seats are nothing to write home about either.


Well at least the seats in the Comet cars actually RECLINE! Really short sighted decision from California. Non-reclining seats aren't bad for shorter rides like the southern half of the Pacific Surfliner or the Capitol Corridor... but its



desertflyer said:


> A big perk of the CA Cars is powered doors between cars and a quieter ride.


Actually the big, big benefit to the California cars is that each car has two sets of powered double doors. That allows passengers to board and disembark a lot faster. Powered doors between cars and a quieter ride is just that... an added "perk."


----------



## Ryan (Jan 23, 2015)

desertflyer said:


>


Is it just me, or are the wheels on that car really, really small?


----------



## desertflyer (Jan 23, 2015)

rickycourtney said:


> desertflyer said:
> 
> 
> > For comparison here is the top level of a California Car. More modern look, not quite as nice of seats, but still not bad. The Comets seats are nothing to write home about either.
> ...


When I reclined the seat in the Comet, it pushed my seat cushion forward. I figured my seat was broken so I moved and a different seat did the same thing. It really wasn't all that comfortable to recline.

As for the electric double doors on the CA Cars - you're right, that's the best feature. I was just noticing some other perks from a passenger perspective.


----------



## amamba (Jan 23, 2015)

That interior of the comet cars looks nicer than the amfleets currently running up and down the corridor back East. At least those cars have curtains!


----------



## railiner (Jan 23, 2015)

The "classic" railroad style open overhead parcel racks look like an antique....

The advantage is you can 'keep an eye' on your belonging's, but on the other hand, things can 'leak' down upon you.....


----------



## Big Iron (Jan 23, 2015)

RyanS said:


> desertflyer said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


No, it's not just you. Caught my eye too.


----------



## railiner (Jan 23, 2015)

Big Iron said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > desertflyer said:
> ...


Yeah....they almost look like "shop trucks" used to move cars around rebuild shops....


----------



## desertflyer (Jan 23, 2015)

railiner said:


> The "classic" railroad style open overhead parcel racks look like an antique....
> 
> The advantage is you can 'keep an eye' on your belonging's, but on the other hand, things can 'leak' down upon you.....


I typically prefer them open like that, except if something was to leak on me of course.


----------



## seat38a (Jan 24, 2015)

desertflyer said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > The "classic" railroad style open overhead parcel racks look like an antique....
> ...


Those open racks are much better than the airline style closed ones on the CA cars. They are pretty much useless unless your putting something small up there. Can't fit a small roller in those at all. Last year, when we took the San Joaquin, the luggage racks below were spilling out all over the place due to the overhead bin door size. If they can find a few bucks, first thing they could do to make peoples life easier is to replace the bins on the CA cars.



P1000529 by seat38a, on Flickr


----------



## seat38a (Jan 24, 2015)

So how many Horizon Cars does the Surfliner use that Amtrak wants back? The only one that I have seen is the cafe / business class combo being used on the Amfleet consist.



IMG_0972 by seat38a, on Flickr


----------



## rickycourtney (Jan 24, 2015)

seat38a said:


> desertflyer said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


The doors make for a very clean look, but you're right, the opening is so small it makes the overhead bins useless. It would also be nice if they replaced the fixed seats with reclining ones.
My hope is that once the new cars are in service they can refurbish the old old California cars.


----------



## rickycourtney (Jan 24, 2015)

seat38a said:


> So how many Horizon Cars does the Surfliner use that Amtrak wants back? The only one that I have seen is the cafe / business class combo being used on the Amfleet consist.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_0972 by seat38a, on Flickr


My guess is Amtrak wants none of them back. Amtrak has more Horizon cars than they need and they are making money renting them to California. 
The main issue is that California would like to stop paying equipment lease payments to Amtrak.

But as long as these comet cars are in use, California will need to continue to lease 2 NPCUs (cabbage cars) and 2 Horizon dinettes, but considering both had been in mothballs for nearly a decade, I doubt Amtrak needs them back anytime soon.


----------



## Fan Railer (Jan 24, 2015)

railiner said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > RyanS said:
> ...


I believe the wheel diameter on the old comet trucks is 36 inches? Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I think nowadays, wheel diameter is closer to the 40-45 inch range.


----------



## X (Jan 27, 2015)

The Comet wheels are 32", Superliner and such are 36".


----------



## battalion51 (Jan 29, 2015)

You know, it's too bad that they didn't develop a transition car for the California cars. If they had one you could run the Comets intertwined with the bi-levels as extra capacity. You'd also avoid the wheelchair lift issue since those passengers could be accommodated in the bi-level cars.

I guess that would only work for the Capitol Corridor/San Joaquin service though since the Pacific Surfliners end car is Business Class...


----------



## Bjartmarr (Jan 31, 2015)

Does anybody know which southbound train the comet consist is running on? I'd like to catch a ride on them Monday.


----------



## desertflyer (Jan 31, 2015)

Bjartmarr said:


> Does anybody know which southbound train the comet consist is running on? I'd like to catch a ride on them Monday.


Two weeks ago the only Comet runs were 712 southbound and 717 northbound. This could change at any time and there is a chance the Comets are not going to be in regular service any day now. Good luck!


----------



## Bjartmarr (Feb 2, 2015)

I'm currently on 712 in a Comet, still in regular service!

The seats are the standard Amtrak LD seats like in the Superliners. They don't slide forward when they recline; at least the ones in this car don't.

The doors are all manual, which really delays loading: they've only been opening two doors at stops, and of course loading passengers with bags into high floor cars takes time.

Is Amtrak California leasing the NPCU's and horizon dinettes on these trainsets, or did they buy them outright? Unlike the ones on the Surfliner, I don't think they're planning on returning them anytime soon.

No bike racks on these cars, though the plans I saw were to put a rack next to the ADA space. I guess there are racks in the cabbages?


----------



## neroden (Feb 2, 2015)

Leasing. They will be returned soon, when the bilevels arrive.


----------



## Bjartmarr (Feb 2, 2015)

So what will they use for cab and food service cars on the comet trainsets after they return the horizon and NPCU's?


----------



## rickycourtney (Feb 2, 2015)

Bjartmarr said:


> I'm currently on 712 in a Comet, still in regular service!
> 
> The seats are the standard Amtrak LD seats like in the Superliners. They don't slide forward when they recline; at least the ones in this car don't.


I don't know where that rumor about the seats sliding forward came from. The seats on the Comet cars are Amtrak's standard, short-haul seats. No legrests, no center armrests and no footrests but they do recline (quite generously). The California-owned Surfliner cars (different from the Pacific Surfliner train) have seats that recline by sliding forward.



Bjartmarr said:


> The doors are all manual, which really delays loading: they've only been opening two doors at stops, and of course loading passengers with bags into high floor cars takes time.


Agreed. The biggest problem with these cars is that they are high-level cars. Granted, high-level cars are the norm for most of the country, but they aren't ideal. Passengers in California are not accustumed to them and the timekeeping is hard since the schedules are created for bi-level cars.



Bjartmarr said:


> Is Amtrak California leasing the NPCU's and horizon dinettes on these trainsets, or did they buy them outright? Unlike the ones on the Surfliner, I don't think they're planning on returning them anytime soon.


California has a long-term lease agreement for the NPCUs and the Horizon dinette cars. To my understanding, California paid to totally refurbish 3 NPCUs and in exchange they get to use them free of charge for a period of time (if it's like other deals, 5 years). The Horizon dinette cars were essentially surplus. They had been sitting in a corner of Beech Grove collecting dust.

So that's a roundabout way of saying... California is likely leasing them for a pretty low price and Amtrak is in no hurry to get those NPCUs and the Horizon dinette cars back. Even if Amtrak is getting very little money from leasing those cars to California, it's still more money if they sit unused.



Bjartmarr said:


> No bike racks on these cars, though the plans I saw were to put a rack next to the ADA space. I guess there are racks in the cabbages?


That was the plan... but it was eliminated. I think there was concerns about passengers lugging bikes up the stairs into the passenger cabins... and concerns that in an accident the bikes could fall and injure someone.

There are bike racks in the NPCUs and passengers can check them for free at stations that offer checked luggage.


----------



## Bjartmarr (Feb 2, 2015)

Oop, you're right, no legrests like the Superliners. (Incidentally, the wrecked/refurbished California Superliners have these nice short-haul seats.)

I hope the new bilevel order gets these, which are much more comfortable than the superliner seats.


----------



## rickycourtney (Feb 2, 2015)

Bjartmarr said:


> Oop, you're right, no legrests like the Superliners. (Incidentally, the wrecked/refurbished California Superliners have these nice short-haul seats.)
> 
> I hope the new bilevel order gets these, which are much more comfortable than the superliner seats.


I haven't seen any public documentation on what seats have been chosen, but all the renderings show blue and grey leather seats (similar to the Acela BC seats).


----------



## Blackwolf (Mar 13, 2015)

The California Comets are still in active service. Riding San Joaquin #712 right now, and its a full Comet consist. All I can say is that it will be a combination of comfortable standard Amtrak coach seats and overcrowding as the train is nearly SRO already from Stockton.


----------



## seat38a (Mar 13, 2015)

Blackwolf said:


> The California Comets are still in active service. Riding San Joaquin #712 right now, and its a full Comet consist. All I can say is that it will be a combination of comfortable standard Amtrak coach seats and overcrowding as the train is nearly SRO already from Stockton.


San Joaquin is a reserved coach train. Anyone who got on the wrong train should be FORCED to give up their seat to someone who is booked on the correct train.


----------



## Blackwolf (Mar 14, 2015)

seat38a said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> > The California Comets are still in active service. Riding San Joaquin #712 right now, and its a full Comet consist. All I can say is that it will be a combination of comfortable standard Amtrak coach seats and overcrowding as the train is nearly SRO already from Stockton.
> ...


You're talking with someone who knows this quite well. Yes, the SJ is a reserved train. They never did completely sell-out, and indeed one could have purchased a ticket for #712 from the platform today. Nearly everyone had a seat partner, though. And I can say I was relieved that mine was a young woman who was compelled to sleep most of the way. A substantial number of the other, more boisterous crowd who came aboard in Fresno made it quite clear in their continuing profanity-laced conversation they were ex-convicts who had just this morning been let free from Chowchilla State Penitentiary. Their ubiquitous white mesh "personal items" bags were another dead-giveaway.


----------



## neroden (Mar 14, 2015)

Bjartmarr said:


> So what will they use for cab and food service cars on the comet trainsets after they return the horizon and NPCU's?


When they return the Horizons and NPCUs, they will also sell the Comets. This will happen after all the bilevels are in service.


----------



## PaulM (Mar 14, 2015)

rickycourtney said:


> Bjartmarr said:
> 
> 
> > No bike racks on these cars, though the plans I saw were to put a rack next to the ADA space. I guess there are racks in the cabbages?
> ...


I'm glad to see Illinois and Missouri aren't such nervous nellies. I've been lugging bikes up the stairs into Horizons without bike racks for over 20 years; and I've never heard of anyone getting hurt.


----------

