# Commuter rail in a small city?



## Emily (Aug 16, 2006)

Hi,

I am doing some research as to whether a commuter rail line can be justified in the community where I live. The population feeding the line is about 50, 000 with a lot of growth expected over the next 20 years (20,000-50 000 people). The line would be about 30 km. There are already tracks along the route which could be used. The commute by both car and train would be about 45min with the car commute getting longer as the population increases. Parking in the city is abundant and fairly cheep ($5-$10 a day).

Does anyone know of a community with similar conditions where commuter rail has been successful (high level of operating cost recovery and/or good ridership)? Or even attempted?

Does anyone know of any research on factors which contribute to the success or failure of a commuter rail line?

Any info would be helpful. Also if anyone knows of another forum where I might get this kind of info that would be great.

Thanks in advance,

Emily


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## battalion51 (Aug 16, 2006)

Well if we knew the name of your city that'd help. For the most part commuter rail is located in major cities and then fanning out to smaller communities that are natural commutes to the big city.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> Well if we knew the name of your city that'd help. For the most part commuter rail is located in major cities and then fanning out to smaller communities that are natural commutes to the big city.


The city is Victoria BC Canada. The population of Greater Victoria is about 300 000. The commuter rail would service a part of Greater Victoria called the Western Communities with a current population of about 50 000 but with major growth expected in the near future. The Western Communities could be considered a bedroom community with most of the jobs located in down town Victoria, about 20-30km from the Western Communities.


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## jamesontheroad (Aug 16, 2006)

The Ottawa O-Train could be a starting point for your reading, but don't forget there are lots of exceptions for that project... although the trains are DMU (diesel multiple unit) trains designed for regional inter-city services for Deutsche Bahn in Germany, they can only be operated as 'light rail' in North America because of their size, weight, and buffer strengths etc. These trains can't share tracks with regular North American freight and passenger trains.

The O-train mainly sticks to existing tracks: so for your scenario of existing tracks, this is as close as you can get to an 'out of the box' train. They are an effective stop gap until investment or political motivation is there to invest in electrified or more appropriate rolling stock.

Ottawa's population is 800,000... however the O-train only serves an 8km (!) line, so it's questionable whether the difference in population actually an issue in your example. Measuring success of commuter rail is difficult, since it's unreasonable to expect a north American commuter line to turn a profit: you would have to look to at individual lines larger cities which already have existing networks (Montréal, Toronto etc...). I don't know of any city of that size which could be comparable.

Hope that helps,

*j* :blink:


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## George Harris (Aug 17, 2006)

No easy answer.

"parking downtown is abundant and cheap $5 to $10."

the first part works aganist it. Not sure I would have the same definition of cheap. I would not call $10 cheap.

the time being about the same works for it.

Population is not as important as employment density. Victoria being a provincial capital and therefore having an abnormally high percentage of office workers concentrated in the CBD works for it.

The correlation between estimated passneger loadings and actual passenger loadings after the line is opened has been all over the map. Some have not approached more than about 50% of the estimated loading and others have exceeded the estimates on day one and gone up from there.

When looking as estimated patronage a very careful look at who is doing it is most important. Very few of the transportation planners come without some form of axe to grind.

Next month Nashville will be opening a single line of 32 miles (about 50 km) The town at the terminal, Lebanon TN had 20,853 people in the 2000 census. There are intermediate towns, but they are all smaller until you get to the last couple of stops which are within the urban blob. Nashville is a state capital, so the nature of the employment population is probably similar to Victoria, but the total city population is about twice Victoria. It was 545,915 in 2000. This particular line being put in service was not the one with the highest estimated ridership. It was the easiest and close to cheapest to implement, therefore they chose to do it first. It is intended that other lines will follow. Run time will be greater than uncongested driving time, but less than normal rush hour time. The hope is to sell it more on reduced aggravation for the commuter rather than assured time savings. The high ridership estimates are along CSX lines that are near saturation with freight trains.

go to www.musiccitystar.org for information on this line.

George


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## Emily (Aug 17, 2006)

Thanks a lot to both of you.

Your comments give me some good places to start.

Emily


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## gswager (Aug 17, 2006)

You might want to check on RailRunner commuter line for Albuquerque. Albuquerque is about 450,000, plus more along Rio Grande river. RailRunner has extensive study in pdf format that you might want to check it out.

The website address is http://www.nmrailrunner.com. It started running last month after 2 years of planning.

There was a chart of size of population and commuter trains somewhere on the internet. I'm not sure if it shows on RailRunner pdf or others.


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## Emily (Aug 24, 2006)

Some good news for my commuter rail. The following is a clip form local news radio.

A local provincial MLA says the growth in the west shore must involve improving transportation.

Malahat-Juan de Fuca NDP MLA John Horgan says with all the new development there, transportation must be addressed. Horgan says a proposal for a massive new residential development near Langford Lake called West Hills could feature up to 5,000 new living units. Horgan says commuter rail is being pushed as part of that deal.

John Horgan: The developers have put money on the table. They've said if this is going to work, if we're going to get the densities we need to provide housing for the people that want to move to the south island, we need to have an improved transportation network. And that's why I got excited about it - because these are developers who have said we'll put our money up on the table. We see the train as the future of this community, and it's going to be the centrepiece.

Thanks again for all the advice,

Emily


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## George Harris (Aug 25, 2006)

Emily:

Why don't you register, or give us an email address? Soem people might have worthwhile information for you.

I would suggest that you go through the information that can be dug up on musiccitystar.org. There are probaly enough similarities to be useful. The existing railroad that this service is running on was a branch line that had never in its life been more than a secondary main, that was originally built in the early 1900's. It had a horrendous mix of rails in track down to 80 lb/yd, a relatively poor tie condition, and a 25 mph speed limit barring slow orders to lower speeds.

The transit authority hired a local consultant that developed a lowest practical cost for bringing the speed up to 60 mph where alignment geometry permitted. It included about 2/3 new 136 lb/yd welded rail and about 1/3 new ties, lights and gates at all road crossings and replacement of the worst of the bridges. This came up to about US$ one million per mile of line. If the service succeeds, in a few years they will probably need to replace the rest of the existing rail, but for now they can live with what they have.

136 may sound like overkill, but it really is not. Buying good rail in a large section is one of the best long term investments you can make. Line and surface will hold better, the ties will last longer, and the average ride quality will be better, all of which tranlates into maintenance cost saving you will have forever if you don't get taken in by the "save money by buying 115 lb or lighter rail" song.

They bought used coaches from Chicago and used locomotives from Amtrak, and then had them refurbished locally. At the most, the equipment will only travel about 90 to 120 miles per day, so the used stuff should last a long time.

They could have found someone that would have told them they had to virtuailly rebuild everything on the railroad, but that would have proably more than doubled their cost.

George


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## Superliner Diner (Aug 27, 2006)

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> The Ottawa O-Train could be a starting point for your reading, but don't forget there are lots of exceptions for that project... although the trains are DMU (diesel multiple unit) trains designed for regional inter-city services for Deutsche Bahn in Germany, they can only be operated as 'light rail' in North America because of their size, weight, and buffer strengths etc. These trains can't share tracks with regular North American freight and passenger trains.
> The O-train mainly sticks to existing tracks: so for your scenario of existing tracks, this is as close as you can get to an 'out of the box' train. They are an effective stop gap until investment or political motivation is there to invest in electrified or more appropriate rolling stock.
> 
> Ottawa's population is 800,000... however the O-train only serves an 8km (!) line, so it's questionable whether the difference in population actually an issue in your example. Measuring success of commuter rail is difficult, since it's unreasonable to expect a north American commuter line to turn a profit: you would have to look to at individual lines larger cities which already have existing networks (Montréal, Toronto etc...). I don't know of any city of that size which could be comparable.
> ...


Technically, Ottawa's O-Train is not commuter rail; it is diesel light rail transit. It is the only one in Canada, and one of only two currently operating in North America. (The other is NJ TRANSIT's RiverLINE in Southwestern New Jersey. A third will be operating hopefully by the end of 2008 between Oceanside and Escondido, CA.)

FWIW, Victoria's neighbor across the bay, Vancouver, does in fact have a commuter rail line called West Coast Express. It runs strictly rush hours, inbound in the morning and outbound in the evening along a single line to the east of the city. You may consider riding the ferry across to Vancouver and checking out the operation there, which runs out of Waterfront station.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2006)

If the proposed route is only 20-30 km, heavy rail might be a bit of an overkill. You might take a look at the transportation system in Freiburg, Germany. I know it's in Europe, but it's a very well planned system in a city smaller than Victoria. If your line doesn't share tracks with freight trains you'll be operating with different rules about crashworthiness. The projects in southern California and New Jersey use the concept of "temporal separation" of freight and passenger trains. During specified hours the line is considered "freight trains only" and during the rest of the day the line is "passenger trains only".


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## Glenn W (Oct 7, 2006)

Something to consider is how much public transit via bus exists? I'm thinking of the Orange Line service to SW Chicago & Midway Airport. THe old Archer bus lines from the area into downtown were the busiest & most patronized. A system of feeder bus lines with transfers at key points had been established. It became cheaper to convert some of that traffic to the rapid transit. While not a "steam railroad", the cars do run on tracks!

THe Orange Line route uses abandoned railway ROW for the most part until it makes a connection with downtown lines & the Loop.

Nashville, like many smaller cities, has a problem with public transit. We had a bus system that in 2000, most of the fleet was eligible for antique plates!. You need a city govmt with the will & the funds for continual capital investment. Today, the most of the old buses have been replaced with new models, with air conditioning that works! THere is a commuter bus route from Murfreesboro to Nashville. It helps to have a large city within 30-40 miles & a large commuter population. It also helps to have congestion clogging up the major interstates. Rush hours here run 7-9 inbound & 4-7 outbound.


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## VentureForth (Feb 22, 2007)

The existing passenger service on Vancouver Island is the Malahat. It's such a funny little train. When my wife and I rode it 7 years ago, it was two Rail Diesel Cars multi-unit'd together. I think now they are down to one lone RDC. It's the rail line they can't expand, and it's one they can't get rid of. It doesn't make do for a good commuter because it goes outbound from Victoria in the AM and returns in the evening. A commuter train on that line would be difficult because no one seems to want to pay to upgrade that track which is in pretty poor shape. And 30 MPH won't be very inviting to commuters.

That all being said, I think that the physical size of Victoria would make a subway a better alternative than commuter rail. There is already an extensive bus network there, though, and it will be hard to lay any sort of new track of any kind in that environmentally concerned city (which is ironic, because light rail is much greener than busses).

Just pray and pray hard that they don't resort to trolley busses! They may be eco-friendly, but I couldn't stand the way it looked in San Francisco and Seattle. I think it clutters the sky WAY too much.

A subway would have the least impact on the natural beauty of Victoria.


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## Aaron (Victoria BC) (Mar 22, 2007)

Hi,

Ten years ago, everyone laughed if u mentioned commuter rail would be needed in Victoria. Now there are very serious discussions in bringing a commuter rail to the CRD between the cities of Duncan and Victoria. A distance of about I think 80km?The amount of traffic has grown considerably in the last 5 years.

For the last 14 years or so, I have been gathering information on transportation in Victoria, mostly the transit system, which by the way has one of the best riderships numbers for a city under 500,000 in Canada. It current carries about 97,000 people a day and last year carried about 22million.

There has even been talk of bringing back the streetcar. Victoria streetcars stopped running on July 5, 1948.

Perhaps building a network similar to the Portland Streetcar, although its all talk for now.

There has been a study on improving a section of the highway between Duncan and Victoria, know as the Malahat, which is mountain pass. Commuter rail was one of the options, so I submitted a 29 page portfolio to the consultants last July. A second public open house is later this month, and I plan to show a much larger report.

If Emily wants, she can contact me at [email protected]

I can show what I have been working on.

When I am not working, or attending college, I spend a lot of my spare time studying our region's network. Perhaps there is something that may be of help.

Anyway, good luck in your research.

Aaron


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## Glenn W (Mar 31, 2007)

George Harris said:


> Next month Nashville will be opening a single line of 32 miles (about 50 km) The town at the terminal, Lebanon TN had 20,853 people in the 2000 census. There are intermediate towns, but they are all smaller until you get to the last couple of stops which are within the urban blob. Nashville is a state capital, so the nature of the employment population is probably similar to Victoria, but the total city population is about twice Victoria. It was 545,915 in 2000. This particular line being put in service was not the one with the highest estimated ridership. It was the easiest and close to cheapest to implement, therefore they chose to do it first. It is intended that other lines will follow. Run time will be greater than uncongested driving time, but less than normal rush hour time. The hope is to sell it more on reduced aggravation for the commuter rather than assured time savings. The high ridership estimates are along CSX lines that are near saturation with freight trains.
> go to www.musiccitystar.org for information on this line.


I'd like to give you an update on this service. Opening Day was in Sept, 2006. Highest ridership since then was in DEC 2006. Some drop for the winter, but "normal" schedule resumes April 2. THe "new" feature is the Friday Night Train that operates later in the evening.

A bit of history: The Tennessee Central was a line built about 100 years ago to connect Nashville with Knoxville. There had been a dream to do a transcontinental from a Southern port thru Memphis & on west to California. Today's I40 may be that route. The TC struggled & pulled its last passenger train in the 1950's. By 1968 the whole line was out. Only some state money created the Nashville & Eastern short line to preserve some freight service.

The line was available to run some passenger trains. 1/2 of it needed to be rebuilt from the ballast up to new rail. Surplus cars could be bought for $1.00 each, repainted. To get by ADA requirements, a ramp was devised that takes a wheelchair from a raised platform into the interior of the car. 3 rows of seats were removed to provide space for tiedowns. That space can also be used for bicycles!

For $10.00 round trip the MTA runs 2 2 car trains pulled by an ex-Amtrak F40. THey have a 3rd 3 car trainset with another F40. Some "spare" cars can be used as parts cars for these 40yr old gallery cars. Metra had kept them in good condition for all that time. OTP is 98%. Ridership is in the 400-500 PPD range. This may improve as the word gets out & the MCS runs more evening trains. There is also some business activity near the new stations.

CSX is the busy Class 1 freight RR. If you can provide insurance, & enough money, they may allow you to talk to them about running trains on their track. Don't let any dinky's hold up the hot freight. With so much single track, there's no capacity or space to run much of anything else. Since CSX owns & operates these lines, it will be very difficult to run passenger trains on their lines.

Nashville's rapid growth is very recent. It appears to be on track to continue thru 2020 & on. Low taxes overall, good quality of life attracts business & media attention. Education in Vanderbilt & other schools may be the largest "industry" over health care, state govm't, industry, or the music business.


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## George Harris (Apr 1, 2007)

Glenn: Thanks much for the update on MusicCityStar. Can the ridership info be found on the web somewhere? I have been very interestedin how it is doing.

To expand a little on the Tennessee Central history: The piece between Nashville and Lebanon was built in the early 1900's, but the piece Lebanon to Harriman was built a few years earlier. When the line went bankrupt for the final time, Nashville to Crossville TN went to L&N, Crossville to Harriman went to Southern, and the western part, Nashville to Hopkinsville KY was given to Illinois Central. What is left today is, of the IC part is the Nashville and Ashland City, which I think is out of service; of the Southern part Harriman to Crab Orchard; and of the L&N part Nashville to Monterey, which is the current Nashville and Eastern. I beleive the part east of Cookeville is out of service.

The RTA took a 32 mile line with a mix of rail sections from 80 lb/yd up and gave it about 2/3 new or used, I don't know which, 136 lb/yd rail, getting rid of all the less than 100 lb/yd stuff, with enough thes and ballast and turned a 25 mph unsignaled railroad into a 60 mph railroad with CTC signals.

As to the CSX lines: The route that would probably have the greatest demand is the ex NC&St.L line to Myfreesboro which is overwhelmed with freight. Is is doubtful that any service would happen without significant if not complete double track. The only CSX line that is light enough in train volume to have service added without significant work would the the ex NC&St.L Memphis line, but it probably still has the least possible traffic demand. There appears to be more political push in the Gallatin direction. But this line is also heavily trafficed with freight at well.

George


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## MrFSS (Apr 1, 2007)

George Harris said:


> Glenn: Thanks much for the update on MusicCityStar. Can the ridership info be found on the web somewhere? I have been very interested in how it is doing.
> To expand a little on the Tennessee Central history: The piece between Nashville and Lebanon was built in the early 1900's, but the piece Lebanon to Harriman was built a few years earlier. When the line went bankrupt for the final time, Nashville to Crossville TN went to L&N, Crossville to Harriman went to Southern, and the western part, Nashville to Hopkinsville KY was given to Illinois Central. What is left today is, of the IC part is the Nashville and Ashland City, which I think is out of service; of the Southern part Harriman to Crab Orchard; and of the L&N part Nashville to Monterey, which is the current Nashville and Eastern. I believe the part east of Cookeville is out of service.
> 
> The RTA took a 32 mile line with a mix of rail sections from 80 lb/yd up and gave it about 2/3 new or used, I don't know which, 136 lb/yd rail, getting rid of all the less than 100 lb/yd stuff, with enough thes and ballast and turned a 25 mph unsignaled railroad into a 60 mph railroad with CTC signals.
> ...


I travel to Crossville quite often. All the tracks through town are gone, but right downtown near the old depot, it is very easy to see where they were. They crossed town at an angle to the streets and some of the buildings reflect that being built next to where the tracks used to be. The old depot has been fully restored and is a nice gift shop and very small TC museum. The old baggage area has been converted into a meeting hall. Very nice use of another old small town depot.


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## Glenn W (Apr 13, 2007)

George Harris said:


> Glenn: Thanks much for the update on MusicCityStar. Can the ridership info be found on the web somewhere? I have been very interestedin how it is doing.
> To expand a little on the Tennessee Central history: The piece between Nashville and Lebanon was built in the early 1900's, but the piece Lebanon to Harriman was built a few years earlier. When the line went bankrupt for the final time, Nashville to Crossville TN went to L&N, Crossville to Harriman went to Southern, and the western part, Nashville to Hopkinsville KY was given to Illinois Central. What is left today is, of the IC part is the Nashville and Ashland City, which I think is out of service; of the Southern part Harriman to Crab Orchard; and of the L&N part Nashville to Monterey, which is the current Nashville and Eastern. I beleive the part east of Cookeville is out of service.
> 
> The RTA took a 32 mile line with a mix of rail sections from 80 lb/yd up and gave it about 2/3 new or used, I don't know which, 136 lb/yd rail, getting rid of all the less than 100 lb/yd stuff, with enough thes and ballast and turned a 25 mph unsignaled railroad into a 60 mph railroad with CTC signals.
> ...


The best source for information may be MusicCityStar.org. They put up regular releases monthly as the line was getting rebuilt. Also check with MTA (Metro Bus). The newspapers gave the train some space near opening day, but nearly none since. Most of my recent information comes from the recent NARP region meet held in Nashville. The story of the Music City Star could be a model for other communities. BTW OTP is at 98%. AFAIK all public crossings have new signals & gates. There may be more work to replace other crossings. The only "new route track" may be the segment that crosses Briley Parkway south of Opry Mills.

Another source for some information is the Tennessee Central Railway Museum. It is on the site of the old TC engine terminal/roundhouse. It helps for the museum to run a regular Saturday set of trips to Watertown & Cookville. They have a nice collection of ex-ATSF Budd cars to run. AFAIK all the cars & locos were painted & redone there. Both Metra & Amtrak must have done a good job whenever the cars were redone last & at least "maintained" to be servicable for another carrier.


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## George Harris (Apr 13, 2007)

I have been a regular visitor to musiccitystar.org and they are not posting ridership figures that I have found.

The track charts posted on the site a couple of years ago that showed the track upgrading showed two areas as "out of scope" mileposts 4.9 to 5.9 and 22.0 to 24.6. Apparently these areas were getting some realignments.

In the 4.9 to 5.9 area, I am not sure what they did, as this is a fairly built up residential area with houses on both sides of the railroad, but this does include the Briley Parkways crossing. (That is Tenn Hwy 155 for those unfamiliar with Nashville that want to find it.)

The 22.0 to 24.6 area is around Martha. If you look at google maps, you see a new alignment across US 70 and the two short curves beyond it, but this appears to be from about mileposts 23.5 to 24.6. I recall reading something on musiccitystar about delays in the work at Tenn 109. What the status is now I do not know, but on the Google Maps, this is still shown as a grade crossing with no work west of the approach to the US 70 overpass.

A look at the line in Google maps is interesting. Apparently the pictures, at least for the eastern part of the section, were taken during the period of intense trackwork, as you can see worktrains and equipment at several locations along the line. Also, for the area of Martha, the new line and old line in the vicinity of the US 70 crossing are very obvious. Unfortunately, a couple of miles east of Martha the resolution of the mapping declines.

George


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## Glenn W (Apr 25, 2007)

George, I've been doing a little searching. The Google Photos appear to be 2-3yrs old. They don't even show the KFC built accross the street. I can easily find my workplace.

The Briley Parkway section of new rail takes out a slight S curve as it crosses Briley & heads a bit West. The State bought out some properties that had been farmland nearly forever. The Martha section takes the track over St Hwy 109 & US70. It is an impressive new bridge. could be a good railfan site. Going into Lebanon the ROW detriorates pretty rapidly. As the line snakes around downtown Lebanon it becomes obvious what a poor line the TC was. It exista as the N&E only with some money from the state. I have found the state has a rail fund with taxes paid on RR diesel fuel. TDOT uses it as a short line perservation program to keep some industry in smaller burgs.


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## George Harris (Apr 25, 2007)

Thanks, Glenn.

I graduated from Tenn Tech in Cookeville in 1968. Being the train nut I am, I spent quite a bit of time wandering around the tracks. The main in the Cookeville vicinity was 90 lb/yd rail, can't remember rolling dates. One thing I do remember, they built a one spot piggyback unloading track. Drive on ramp type, and the rail in it had 18 something or other rolling dates. Since that was 40 years ago, some of the 80 lb/yd rail taken out of the main between Nashville and Lebanon was likely in track longer than the 70 to 80 years that stuff had been in track. TC ran a few passenger excursions at that time. Never managed to ride one, to my regret. Missed one I could have to please a person that I later figured out could never be pleased with me.

I have really wondered if the Nashville bunch did not make a major mistake by not extending the work about another 2 to 3 miles and putting a large park and ride facility off of US-70 near the crossing of I-40 southeast of Lebanon.

George


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## Derwent Park Junction (Jul 22, 2007)

George Harris said:


> Thanks, Glenn.
> I graduated from Tenn Tech in Cookeville in 1968. Being the train nut I am, I spent quite a bit of time wandering around the tracks. The main in the Cookeville vicinity was 90 lb/yd rail, can't remember rolling dates. One thing I do remember, they built a one spot piggyback unloading track. Drive on ramp type, and the rail in it had 18 something or other rolling dates. Since that was 40 years ago, some of the 80 lb/yd rail taken out of the main between Nashville and Lebanon was likely in track longer than the 70 to 80 years that stuff had been in track. TC ran a few passenger excursions at that time. Never managed to ride one, to my regret. Missed one I could have to please a person that I later figured out could never be pleased with me.
> 
> I have really wondered if the Nashville bunch did not make a major mistake by not extending the work about another 2 to 3 miles and putting a large park and ride facility off of US-70 near the crossing of I-40 southeast of Lebanon.
> ...


I read with interest reports about the demonstration commuter rail service into Victoria (Vancouver Is) held at the end of May.

At a similar time it was reported in my local newspaper that the leader of my state's government was in favour of considering some kind of regular passenger rail operation into the centre of my home city, something which hasn't occurred for almost thirty years.

Given that this city is a connurbation of approx 200 000 people, the topic of this thread immediately appealed.

As someone who in recent years has attempted some grass roots lobbying with elected officials to put this proposal on the agenda, it came as a surprise to read that it was in the mind of the state's chief politician.

In subsequent newspaper discussion (letters, editorials etc) the suggestion of the rail corridor being converted into a guided busway has been raised.

I'm therefore in search of some key points in favour of a rail-based alternative and I'm hoping other contributors to this forum might point me in the right direction.

Cheers

*DPJ*


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## Penn Central (Jul 29, 2007)

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania faced the same choice some years ago, and chose the busway  . If you look around, you might be able to find some statistics in your favor from that episode (right now, they're trying to extend their light rail, which may indicate something  ).


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## Derwent Park Junction (Aug 3, 2007)

Penn Central said:


> Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania faced the same choice some years ago, and chose the busway  . If you look around, you might be able to find some statistics in your favor from that episode (right now, they're trying to extend their light rail, which may indicate something  ).


I assume the light rail system you're referring to is the 'T' - being extended into the north??

What is the current status of busways in Pittsburgh? still active? any likely extensions?

Cheers

*DPJ*


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## Glenn W (Aug 10, 2007)

It appears you may have a combination of factors to allow any commuter rail service:

1) A shortline railroad with little online traffic. THe big class 1's appear to be clogged with freight. THey don't want any dinky commuters get in the way of the freight. Local control over operation of the shortline is another key factor. Crews can run under non-union flexible work rules. 3-4 person crews can rotate engineer/conductor & other assignmernts.

2) Surplus older but useable equipment from an existing commuter line. Get 12 cars for $1.00 instead of going to the scrapper. Get useable F40's from Amtrak/Via. Make efficient use of taxpayer money!

3) You will have to spend a sum to rebuild the ROW to passenger train speeds. THe government may have a railbuilding program as part of an economic development project. It helps to keep the few old shippers still on the rails. Keep those jobs too!

4) A talented crew will be required to refurbish & rebuild the old equipment. At least make it look new.

5) An innovative approach to meeting ADA requirements. THe Music City Star uses some raised platforms & a steel bridge plate to enable wheelchars & bikes to roll into the cars.

6) You may need key elected officials to get federal & local funds to make it all happen. It helps to have the entire delegation work together to bring the required funds home, from study to planning, building, & operation. Don't forget about insurance liability requirements.

7) Start now. It may take 10years before the first train can roll.


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## Superliner Diner (Aug 11, 2007)

> What is the current status of busways in Pittsburgh? still active? any likely extensions?


They still exist. There are three of them, the West Busway, Martin Luther King East Busway, and South Busway. The latter runs parallel to the light rail line, and at one time they even shared the same roadbed. They still do share the tunnel under Mt. Washington.

I believe that the MLK East Busway, which runs parallel to the Norfolk Southern (ex-Pennsy) mainline .... also used by the Pennsylvanian, is currently being extended further east beyond Wilkinsburg.

The West Busway is the newest, although it is possible that some of it will eventually be replaced if and when the "T" light rail gets extended to the airport beyond the first phase of new construction to the North Shore -- which will take it under the Allegheny River to serve the 2 sports venues over there.


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## awalker1829 (Aug 29, 2007)

Superliner Diner said:


> > What is the current status of busways in Pittsburgh? still active? any likely extensions?
> 
> 
> They still exist. There are three of them, the West Busway, Martin Luther King East Busway, and South Busway. The latter runs parallel to the light rail line, and at one time they even shared the same roadbed. They still do share the tunnel under Mt. Washington.
> ...


We'll probably get a good update on their plans in October as the T is one of the field trips for the annual Association of Railway Museums convention. Last year's tour of Sacramento Light Rail's shop and the Siemans facility was very well organized.

As to light rail as an alternative mode of transportation in Vancouver, B.C., it could work if properly designed and operated. Knowing that something is a good idea and convincing the public and politicians to fund it are two different things. Even with public support and funding, it can take decades for the desired product to emerge. Here in Tucson, Arizona the streetcar is making a comeback in the downtown area and should have the first fully operational line in 2012. This is the product of over 25 years of work on the part of Old Pueblo Trolley, of which I am a member and officer.

For those unfamiliar with OPT, we were incorporated in 1983 following the expressed interest of members of the Tucson community to see the return of streetcar service in time for the centennial of the University of Arizona (1985). While that did not work out, the City of Tucson did agree to fund a real feasibility study which came back with positive results. With the results of the study, we petitioned the city leaders for support and got the issue as far as being listed on the May, 1984 city ballot. Much to our disappointment, it failed. Despite the setback, the group redoubled the effort and scaled the project back to it's present size-one mile between the intersection of 4th Avenue and 8th Streets, running up 4th Avenue to University Boulevard and then east on University to the Main Gate of the University of Arizona.

Progress on the proposed street railway moved forward with the city approving the route and granting necessary authority to utilize the public right of way in September of 1985. Track installation along 4th Avenue began in 1987, repairs to the existing right of way along University Boulevard having been performed in 1985 when a city resurfacing project exposed the 60 year old rail. Funding secured from the State of Arizona, designating Old Pueblo Trolley as a demonstration light rail line in 1990 was crucial to our timely opening of the line in 1993, employing ex-Pacific Electric #332 which was then on loan to OPT from the Orange Empire Railway Museum. That car was restored by OPT over a six year period and eventually returned to OERM, being replaced by an imported Japanese streetcar (No. 869) and ex-Brussels Tramway No. 1511.

Over the past decade, our volunteer organization has transported up to 24,000+ passengers annually operating on a limited weekend schedule. We have received much support from the University of Arizona, merchants and residents along our route and have become a key in the promotion of commerce in that area. In May of 2004, a modern streetcar line-essentially an extension of OPT's current route-was included on the ballot as part of a $2 billion transportation improvement plan that will be overseen by the Regional Transportation Administration and funded by a dedicated half cent sales tax county wide. Both measures passed by a wide margin and planning has already progressed along with some initial key (but not totally related) construction. OPT is involved with the planning and will be involved with the operation of the line as it is envisioned that heritage streetcars will share the right of way with the modern streetcars once they come on line. Construction presently occuring is the replacement of the 1916 vintage 4th Avenue underpass under the old Sunset Route. This will allow the streetcar to operate as far west as Congress Street and 5th Avenue, where the line will run one block south to Broadway Boulevard, then back to Congress and 4th Avenue-creating a loop. Congress and 5th Avenue is an important location as a major hotel, theater and transit center are located around that intersection. Eventually the line will extend as far west as the proposed University of Arizona Science Center-west of Interstate 10. On the east end, the line will be extended around the University of Arizona to the University Medical Center.

The key is patience and dedication. We have come a long way here and many other cities have gone before us. When defeated, we came back stronger because of our leadership and working with others in the community. Bear in mind that Tucson was one of the first of the smaller cities to eliminate the streetcar in favor of the bus. In 1930, the city council narrowly passed a measure in favor of replacing the Tucson Rapid Transit streetcars with buses and at midnight on December 31, 1930 Tucson Rapid Transit pulled the plug on the streetcars-for good or so it seemed.


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## Derwent Park Junction (Sep 1, 2007)

> The key is patience and dedication. We have come a long way here and many other cities have gone before us. When defeated, we came back stronger because of our leadership and working with others in the community. Bear in mind that Tucson was one of the first of the smaller cities to eliminate the streetcar in favor of the bus. In 1930, the city council narrowly passed a measure in favor of replacing the Tucson Rapid Transit streetcars with buses and at midnight on December 31, 1930 Tucson Rapid Transit pulled the plug on the streetcars-for good or so it seemed.


Inspirational post!

The issue I raised about my home city in an earlier post has taken a step forward this past week with further public support by city (elected) leaders for a serious study into the potential return of commuter rail. This has been given considerable favourable editorial support from the local newspaper, and public letter writing to the newspaper has commenced, mostly supportive, but some major doubts have also been expressed by some transport experts.

Some debate has revolved around the issue of what type of operation with a range of expressions of support for varying styles such as traditional heavy rail commuter, modern electric light rail and more experimental hybrid operations.

I'm sure your point about the need for significant grass roots involvement and perseverence over a period of time will be essential to bypassing the many barriers which will be thrown up from all sorts of sources.

Cheers

*DPJ*

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*(edited to fix quote - AmtrakWPK)*


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## Glenn W (Sep 1, 2007)

THe October 2007 isue of Railfain & Railroad put Nashville's Music City Star on the front cover!!

THe article includes a lot of good information. Y'all invited to come ride our little train!


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