# Superliner trains' sleepers removal and restoration (2022-2023)



## minnrider

I just received an email that my reservation on train #5 from Chicago to Emeryville, CA on Oct. 4 has been changed from a roomette to standard coach seating. The explanation is that the sleeper car has been removed. It stated they will refund the price difference; I used Guest Reward points for this trip. I'm definitely not traveling coach for two nights. Out of curiosity, I checked the website and noticed sleepers are "sold out" on train 5 for most dates in Sept./Oct. What's going on? My only option is to just cancel the trip and get a full refund of my points. After 40 years of traveling with Amtrak, I'm ready to give up on the long distance trains. This is just the latest in a long string of issues I've had with Amtrak; e.g. lengthy delays, bus bridges, cancellations, etc. On top of this, I think sleeper fares are outrageously expensive for what you get. My travel dollars are better spent elsewhere.


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## Devil's Advocate

In another thread it was claimed that empty Superliner sleepers are being moved to the end of regional trains for axel count reasons.


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## Eric in East County

As many of you will remember, early last June we had to cancel our LD trip to Ohio after our bedroom reservation on SWC No. 4 was shot out from under us when the second sleeper was replaced with a Trans-Dorm sleeper, and we couldn’t be downgrade because the train was sold out.

Rather than forego this year’s trip we decided to reschedule it to late September-early October.

On June 16th, Amtrak sold us round trip SWC bedroom accommodations (again in the second sleeper.) One of these was the last bedroom still available.

This morning, we received the following e-mail:

“We wanted to let you know that the [second] Sleeper Car has been removed from train #0004, the Southwest Chief, from Los Angeles Union Station on Tuesday, September 20th. We've changed your reservation to standard Coach seating and will refund you for the price difference.

We're sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks for being a valued Amtrak customer - we'll see you onboard.”

Since, as seniors, we’re no longer up to making a long-distance train trip in coach, we’ll be contacting Customer Relations to see about rescheduling our trip to June-July 2023 with the stipulation that our SWC bedrooms be in the first sleeper. We’ll keep you posted on how we make out.

Eric & Pat


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## thully

That’s pretty bad - and this far in advance as well. Glad my sleeper on the Empire Builder was fine, though not sure I want to chance this going forward. The safest thing might be to book a refundable flight in addition to any sleeper if that is a viable alternative for you - currently those are sometimes only $50-$100 more than non-refundable. Despite airlines having their own issues, that may be more reliable than Amtrak sleepers - at least if your flight is cancelled there are generally more alternatives.


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## Rasputin

Just pathetic!


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## jcmascarenas

We had 2 bedrooms booked on the Zephyr for 9/18. Also received an email about a sleeper car being removed. Their communication is atrocious as there was not updated reservation information. It wasn't until I called that I discovered that one bedroom had been moved to coach because the other was on a different car. No communication about the amount of the refund. Again had to ask on the call. The agent was rude. For the moment, leaving the reservation as is because my in-laws are coming from the UK for this trip. Anyone ever have any luck picking up a cancellation? I guess I'll be stalking the website in the hopes that I get lucky. Also, does anyone have any insight on seat swaps? I ask because my in-laws will have the room, but by the time of the trip I'll be 17 weeks pregnant. In-laws have said I could have a night in the sleeper and one of them will sit coach. Would the attendant allow that?


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## Eric in East County

In a different thread, someone commented that they were told by a member of the SWC’s onboard staff that the Trans-Dorm car will remain after the summer travel season has ended.

Will we ever return to those halcyon days when the SWC’s consist had three (count ‘em) three sleeping cars and there were bedrooms available for all those who wanted them?


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## pennyk

jcmascarenas said:


> Also, does anyone have any insight on seat swaps? I ask because my in-laws will have the room, but by the time of the trip I'll be 17 weeks pregnant. In-laws have said I could have a night in the sleeper and one of them will sit coach. Would the attendant allow that?


I believe it is unlikely that it would be permitted and I certainly would not count on it.


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## jcmascarenas

pennyk said:


> I believe it is unlikely that it would be permitted and I certainly would not count on it.


How does the ticketing work? I've been puzzling over how my in-laws will access the sleeping car for boarding and if they leave to go to observation car or cafe. We only have one ticket received by email...which is no longer current with the change to coach. Do we all just carry a copy of the same ticket?


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## AmtrakBlue

jcmascarenas said:


> How does the ticketing work? I've been puzzling over how my in-laws will access the sleeping car for boarding and if they leave to go to observation car or cafe. We only have one ticket received by email...which is no longer current with the change to coach. Do we all just carry a copy of the same ticket?


Yes, you can print out multiple copies of the ticket. As for the changes, the QR code will have those changes. You could call and request they send you updated eTickets so you an "read" the changes.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Just checked our 12/18 trip from EMY to GBB in the 32 car (family room). This is the reservation that took me 5 hours over 3 days to book because website kept crashing and reservations wanted to charge me $800 more than price on the website. Finally I got through to Guest Relations and they forced it through matching the price the website showed. Good news reservation is still intact as of today. Very worried since Amtrak does not add cars for the holidays anymore. So the 32 car is gone until around November it sounds.

I’ll be very surprised if it’s back before next spring at this point. Minus Thanksgiving week and Christmas week, November to February is travels (all modes) slowest months. And like I said before Amtrak doesn’t increase the size of long distance trains just for the holidays. I’m booking back up air tickets which for 12/18 are already going to be pricey compared to when I booked this 3 months ago.

I said yesterday in another thread I hope Gardner tries to put 3 day service back on the table and tries to back up his lame excuses before a Senate hearing. It’s true insanity you can’t run a business like this long term. Until Gardner does something drastic to get the powers to be attention nothing will change and it will continue to be one day closer to the end of the network. Death by a 1000 cuts has to stop.

I’m glad RPA has started to gather evidence at least with their announcement yesterday.


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## Trucker72

We are on a three week trip starting 9/8. We just got a change today that did not have a change to the CZ but included the CHI to DEN leg of the CZ. We are in car 532, room 2. Should I be worried about this reservation? Also, a newbie question, how do you list the trains you have ridden? BTW we purchased these trains last December. Should they not make more recent buyers change from a roomette to coach and not one that bought their tickets 9 months ago?


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## pennyk

Trucker72 said:


> Also, a newbie question, how do you list the trains you have ridden?


Many members list trains ridden in their signature, which you can do by accessing your account. If you need assistance, please send me a PM. Please note the rules for signatures in the Rules and Guidelines thread.


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## Rasputin

In 1968, the PRR mysteriously "lost" my sleeping car reservation for the Broadway. I learned about the loss about 8 hours before departure when my reservation could not be found and the sleeping car accommodations were sold out at that point. Fortunately, I had the luxury of being able to stay an additional day in Chicago and was able to book on the next day's Broadway. 

That was 54 years ago. Not much has changed except Amtrak sometimes gives a bit more notice when they pull the rug out from under you.


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## rs9

Devil's Advocate said:


> In another thread it was claimed that empty Superliner sleepers are being moved to the end of regional trains for axel count reasons.


I would have to find the thread again, but I believe it was noted that the Superliners being used on the Saluki, for axle count reasons, are cars that are not in service due to maintenance needs. Since the Saluki originates and ends in Chicago, this seems like a decent use of resources - maintenance delays not withstanding.


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## greatwestern

I also have been demoted from Bedroom to Coach on CZ number 6 on 23rd September.

This after I was demoted from Bedroom to Coach on SWC number 4 in June this year.

I have received an email notifying me - for the trip in June all I received was a sales invoice and pdf ticket leaving me to trawl through to actually find out what was happening.

As the sole purpose for me actually travelling from the UK to the USA in both June and September was to travel on Amtrak I am (to put it politely) not happy. I could not in June, and cannot for September change my flights etc - presumably I am not the only overseas traveller to be affected by this farce.

What I have managed to do is to book (as an alternative to the CZ) the SWC but only in Roomette - currently I have therefore paid for the CZ (presumably with the accommodation refund in the pipeline) and also have paid for the SWC.

If my Roomette booking on the SWC gets dumped by Amtrak I am left with no other option.

I will be looking to make my feelings known to Amtrak as best I can (obviously not as easy doing that from the UK as it might be from the States).


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## AmtrakBlue

I know a guy who was able to break up his CZ trip between a room and coach (got the room for night time, too  ).


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## joelkfla

Question: Are these sleepers that are currently running on the trains in question and are being dropped, or were they scheduled to be added and have now been postponed?


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## Amtrakfflyer

Currently on trains services being reduced.


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## lordsigma

I’m not all that surprised. Based on some of what you hear of reports on board they’ve stretched pretty thin to go back to daily for the summer. Hopefully the dropped sleeper is a sign they won’t reduce the train to less than daily. We’ll have to wait and see what happens.


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## lordsigma

Eric in East County said:


> Will we ever return to those halcyon days when the SWC’s consist had three (count ‘em) three sleeping cars and there were bedrooms available for all those who wanted them?



I’d think eventually it’ll be back to more than it is now - but not in the next year or two. It’s going to be dicey while OBS remains short staffed.


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## lordsigma

minnrider said:


> I just received an email that my reservation on train #5 from Chicago to Emeryville, CA on Oct. 4 has been changed from a roomette to standard coach seating. The explanation is that the sleeper car has been removed. It stated they will refund the price difference; I used Guest Reward points for this trip. I'm definitely not traveling coach for two nights. Out of curiosity, I checked the website and noticed sleepers are "sold out" on train 5 for most dates in Sept./Oct. What's going on? My only option is to just cancel the trip and get a full refund of my points. After 40 years of traveling with Amtrak, I'm ready to give up on the long distance trains. This is just the latest in a long string of issues I've had with Amtrak; e.g. lengthy delays, bus bridges, cancellations, etc. On top of this, I think sleeper fares are outrageously expensive for what you get. My travel dollars are better spent elsewhere.



This isn’t meant to make excuses and I understand your frustration. But in fairness the airline industry has had far from a model summer with many of the same problems and has had to drop flights at a moment’s notice, cut flights routes etc without much notice for much the same reasons. Obviously despite all this the airline industry has infinitely more capacity so eventually there’s a flight they can get you on - and for most people a coach seat on an airline is more likely to be tolerated due to the shorter trip. With the extremely limited capacity of once daily overnight train routes it can be impossible to reaccomodate someone without making someone endure an overnight coach trip as remaining sleepers can be sold out for days.

At the end of the day for most people flying is a necessity while overnight train is discretionary - hence people are going to have higher expectations for Amtrak and a lower threshold for “never again.” Which is the dilemma faced when these things happen.


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## Gary Behling

Just out of curiosity, in regard to those whose sleeping car reservations were cancelled, is there any way to possibly avoid this situation by either making your reservations 11 months in advance OR by knowing which sleeping car most likely might be cancelled so as to make your reservations in a different sleeping car on the same train?


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## greatwestern

Gary Behling said:


> Just out of curiosity, in regard to those whose sleeping car reservations were cancelled, is there any way to possibly avoid this situation by either making your reservations 11 months in advance OR by knowing which sleeping car most likely might be cancelled so as to make your reservations in a different sleeping car on the same train?


Well I booked my June 2022 SWC trip in September 2021 and I still got dumped from Bedroom to Coach just days before I was due to travel.

My downgraded September 2022 CZ trip was booked in March 2022.

Phoning the US from the UK can be expensive (particularly when you find yourself on hold/cut off/not answered) so trying to avoid whatever downgrading strategy Amtrak does (or doesn't) use seems to be pot luck.


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## Amtrakfflyer

I emailed Guest Relations last night asking if I can expect my tickets over Christmas to be canceled since apparently the 32 car is no more. Im sure the response will be interesting…


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## joe57fl

Gary Behling said:


> Just out of curiosity, in regard to those whose sleeping car reservations were cancelled, is there any way to possibly avoid this situation by either making your reservations 11 months in advance OR by knowing which sleeping car most likely might be cancelled so as to make your reservations in a different sleeping car on the same train?


It looks to me like the 532 car is only operating through 8/30 now. After that date sleepers are sold out on #5. I was able to rebook my cancelled roomette from 9/17 to 8/27, which seems to still be ok.


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## B_A_

Eric in East County said:


> As many of you will remember, early last June we had to cancel our LD trip to Ohio after our bedroom reservation on SWC No. 4 was shot out from under us when the second sleeper was replaced with a Trans-Dorm sleeper, and we couldn’t be downgrade because the train was sold out.
> 
> Rather than forego this year’s trip we decided to reschedule it to late September-early October.
> 
> On June 16th, Amtrak sold us round trip SWC bedroom accommodations (again in the second sleeper.) One of these was the last bedroom still available.
> 
> This morning, we received the following e-mail:
> 
> “We wanted to let you know that the [second] Sleeper Car has been removed from train #0004, the Southwest Chief, from Los Angeles Union Station on Tuesday, September 20th. We've changed your reservation to standard Coach seating and will refund you for the price difference.
> 
> We're sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks for being a valued Amtrak customer - we'll see you onboard.”
> 
> Since, as seniors, we’re no longer up to making a long-distance train trip in coach, we’ll be contacting Customer Relations to see about rescheduling our trip to June-July 2023 with the stipulation that our SWC bedrooms be in the first sleeper. We’ll keep you posted on how we make out.
> 
> Eric & Pat


I'm so sorry this has happened to your trip plans - very disappointing and inconvenient.

I am curious how downgraded passengers are chosen. How much is "first come, first served" reservations part of it, versus the length of the travel segment, or are some other factors used?


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## billosborn

I am booked on the CZ in a roomette on August 28th, #5 from CHI-SAC. Fortnately, I am in 0531 the "base sleeper" for the CZ, so hopefully the reservation will not be downgraded. (Fingers crossed!)


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## F900ElCapitan

joelkfla said:


> Question: Are these sleepers that are currently running on the trains in question and are being dropped, or were they scheduled to be added and have now been postponed?


The 32 sleeper is currently running on the CZ. But the SWC is only running one full sleeper and it sounds like they wanted to add one for the low season and chose not to.

Also, RPA is asking for direct information about this and complaints about onboard service/conditions. The more testimony they get the more ammo they’ll have to take to Amtrak to try and make changes.


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## Trucker72

I got the dreaded email from Amtrak about an hour after I asked if I should be nervous! We know the answer now! I split the CZ in Denver. Our Denver to Emeryville had the 32 car removed. We have not received an email about the Chicago to Denver leg yet, also car 32. Something to look forward to. We booked our roomette in December. I asked why they could not cancel roomettes that had been booked for a shorter time and was told to call customer relations Monday. Seems to me that instead of just pulling the 32 car and cancelling those reservations that they could take an hour and cancel room by room based on when the rooms were booked. I was told there are electrical issues with car 32. Over a month out and they know that car will have electrical issues? I don't believe that they know which actual car will be car 532 on that train on that date?!


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## joelkfla

B_A_ said:


> I am curious how downgraded passengers are chosen. How much is "first come, first served" reservations part of it, versus the length of the travel segment, or are some other factors used?


I don't think there's any intelligence involved. When an entire sleeping car is deleted, it's just whomever is unlucky enough to have been assigned to that car. 

I don't know about when a lower capacity car is substituted; it might be passengers booked into the higher-numbered rooms who get hit. I believe Transdorms have no revenue bedrooms, just Roomettes.


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## Trucker72

F900ElCapitan said:


> The 32 sleeper is currently running on the CZ. But the SWC is only running one full sleeper and it sounds like they wanted to add one for the low season and chose not to.
> 
> Also, RPA is asking for direct information about this and complaints about onboard service/conditions. The more testimony they get the more ammo they’ll have to take to Amtrak to try and make changes.


How do we let the RPA know what's happening to us? Also our 532 car on the CZ for 9/14 was cancelled yesterday.


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## TinCan782

AmtrakBlue said:


> I know a guy who was able to break up his CZ trip between a room and coach (got the room for night time, too  ).


Saw that (or similiar) on Facebook.


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## Amtrakfflyer

I wonder where this deception is coming from. A it’s a rouge agent. B it’s coming from some level of management.

“I was told there are electrical issues with car 32. Over a month out and they know that car will have electrical issues? I don't believe that they know which actual car will be car 532 on that train on that date?!”


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## mikewrite

joe57fl said:


> It looks to me like the 532 car is only operating through 8/30 now. After that date sleepers are sold out on #5. I was able to rebook my cancelled roomette from 9/17 to 8/27, which seems to still be ok.


We're on 532 in late August on the 5 train. Fingers crossed! And 632 on the 6 train a few days into September, back to CHI - that one has me very nervous now. Flying is not an option.


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## lordsigma

I think this is more about short staffing. They are squeezing things right now to try to meet summer demand which is likely straining the employees with minimal extra boards. This is likely to relieve the strain on the limited staff while hiring countinues. I think a good strategy for now on Superliner. Trains is to always shoot for the base sleeper. The problem out west seems to be a mix of mechanical shops (particularly Chicago with the many trains it has to service) and On board service staff more so than T&E.


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## trimetbusfan

B_A_ said:


> I'm so sorry this has happened to your trip plans - very disappointing and inconvenient.
> 
> I am curious how downgraded passengers are chosen. How much is "first come, first served" reservations part of it, versus the length of the travel segment, or are some other factors used?


Last week they were rebooking people to additional open spaces on the train. Now that all other spaces are sold out, they have no choice but to put people in Coach. 

Even though they should based on who booked the earliest, this is usually not the case. It is just done in whatever way is convenient for them.


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## F900ElCapitan

Trucker72 said:


> How do we let the RPA know what's happening to us? Also our 532 car on the CZ for 9/14 was cancelled yesterday.


www.railpassenger.org


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## trimetbusfan

F900ElCapitan said:


> www.railpassenger.org


See also









2022 On-Board Survey


Share your thoughts, feelings, and reactions to issues you may have had on a recent Amtrak trip. Dining or observation car taken off? Faulty equipment during the trip? Dirty windows & exterior? Thanks to your support and...



www.votervoice.net










New RPA survey for customer feedback and complaints


I think this is a great idea - kudos to the RPA staff. A great place to leave feedback: https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/blog/bad-train-trip-help-us-make-your-voice-heard-now/




www.amtraktrains.com


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## zephyr17

Gary Behling said:


> Just out of curiosity, in regard to those whose sleeping car reservations were cancelled, is there any way to possibly avoid this situation by either making your reservations 11 months in advance OR by knowing which sleeping car most likely might be cancelled so as to make your reservations in a different sleeping car on the same train?


The way Amtrak is doing it, age of reservation makes no difference. Everyone having reservations in the cut car is either moved, downgraded or cancelled, depending on what remains available on that train. They do not shuffle people around between cars based on age of reservation (or price paid, or AGR status).

As I have posted before, until this has settled down, the best bet is to make sure and book into what I call the "base" sleeper. On Superliner trains that is the 30 car on all trains except the California Zephyr where it is the 31 car, and the Capitol where it is the 00 car. I am less familiar with Viewliner trains and do not feel confident about guidelines for those, although I will say that the "base" sleeper for the New York section of the LSL is the 11 car based on my experiences.


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## B_A_

joelkfla said:


> I don't think there's any intelligence involved. When an entire sleeping car is deleted, it's just whomever is unlucky enough to have been assigned to that car.
> 
> I don't know about when a lower capacity car is substituted; it might be passengers booked into the higher-numbered rooms who get hit. I believe Transdorms have no revenue bedrooms, just Roomettes.


Interesting. Now I'm wondering how accommodations are assigned at time of reservation. Maybe this has been explained elsewhere .... Do they start with the 030 car until it's filled, or does a car have a mix of entire route rooms, plus some A-B, B-C reservations? (So, how much do they allocate, for instance, Roomette 11 will have one party for CHI-KCY, then be refreshed and have new passengers for KCY-LAX?)


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## Gary Behling

lordsigma said:


> I think this is more about short staffing. They are squeezing things right now to try to meet summer demand which is likely straining the employees with minimal extra boards. This is likely to relieve the strain on the limited staff while hiring countinues. I think a good strategy for now on Superliner. Trains is to always shoot for the base sleeper. The problem out west seems to be a mix of mechanical shops (particularly Chicago with the many trains it has to service) and On board service staff more so than T&E.


Your scenario may just be true. I just wish that Amtrak as well as all others would just tell the actual truth about these matters rather than giving some non-informative spin for the sole purpose of avoidance of an admission of blame for the root cause of the problem. I think everybody would like to know what is really going on.


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## zephyr17

Trucker72 said:


> I got the dreaded email from Amtrak about an hour after I asked if I should be nervous! We know the answer now! I split the CZ in Denver. Our Denver to Emeryville had the 32 car removed. We have not received an email about the Chicago to Denver leg yet, also car 32. Something to look forward to. We booked our roomette in December. I asked why they could not cancel roomettes that had been booked for a shorter time and was told to call customer relations Monday. Seems to me that instead of just pulling the 32 car and cancelling those reservations that they could take an hour and cancel room by room based on when the rooms were booked. I was told there are electrical issues with car 32. Over a month out and they know that car will have electrical issues? I don't believe that they know which actual car will be car 532 on that train on that date?!


They're lying. They don't know what physical car will be assigned to the 532 car line months in advance.

They pulled the 32 car line due either to insufficient equipment or insufficient staffing.

Whether the agent was making it up himself to get you off the line or it was something they were told to tell people by management, it still is a bold faced lie.


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## lordsigma

It’s insufficient staffing - with mechanical shops and OBS being the biggest problems. FRA also recently expanded mandatory drug testing to mechanical employees which have been a complicating factor in hiring despite generous sign on and relocation bonuses they have put in place for new mechanical hires.


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## Just-Thinking-51

A position that I applied for a few years back is reposted. Sign on bonus and relocation assistance. This position always had the drug test item with it, something about the CDL I would thing.

The sign bonus is for skilled employees, with smaller amount for trade school.

Sorry staffing in my opinion is a poor function hiring system. It seem a computer will pre screen the application. This just rejected any candidate that don’t fill out the application to catch the trigger words it looks for.

The whole were canceled your sleeper a few days before your travel is completely a different issues. Try to blame it on staffing issues is management making a excuse. Changes to consist of trains should be well planned thing. Sure a derailment screws up those plans, but even those are not completely unknown events. They happen, there a reason why Amtrak use only 80% of there equipment. The whole using sleepers as axle cars is totally made up excuse. That they are bad order cars not in revenue use, is just a convenient excuse. People on this forum are travel form overseas to ride. This is their once in a life time trip that Amtrak is screwup. Not acceptable.


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## mikefinleyco

Amtrak just cancelled our sleeper car reservation for the ca zephyr trip in Sept, and put us in coach, the email says they are removing the sleeper car.

This a multi leg trip for us with flights and Airbnb stays paid for already and rental cars some of which we can change if we reschedule the trip quickly to different dates and some we can't and will end up losing the money. 

But it seems like even if we reschedule to oct, what stops them from doing this all again to us?


We haven't called Amtrak yet but wanted to be more informed before I did


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## n3rdg1rl

This has been happening for both the California Zephyr and the South West Chief. There are a few other posts saying the same thing. I would call them directly and find out when the next trip is that has availability in the first sleeper.


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## TinCan782

There are a couple other active threads here on the same subject. You might seek them out and review them.


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## joelkfla

mikefinleyco said:


> Amtrak just cancelled our sleeper car reservation for the ca zephyr trip in Sept, and put us in coach, the email says they are removing the sleeper car.
> 
> This a multi leg trip for us with flights and Airbnb stays paid for already and rental cars some of which we can change if we reschedule the trip quickly to different dates and some we can't and will end up losing the money.
> 
> But it seems like even if we reschedule to oct, what stops them from doing this all again to us?
> 
> 
> We haven't called Amtrak yet but wanted to be more informed before I did


There are no guarantees on anything with Amtrak right now. If you do rebook, try to get into the 1st sleeper, which would have a car number ending in "1" on the CZ, or "0" on most other trains. That would remain on the train, unless they removed _all _sleepers, which I don't think has happened _yet_.

You may want to review this thread:





Superliner trains' sleepers removal and restoration (2022-2023)


I just received an email that my reservation on train #5 from Chicago to Emeryville, CA on Oct. 4 has been changed from a roomette to standard coach seating. The explanation is that the sleeper car has been removed. It stated they will refund the price difference; I used Guest Reward points...




www.amtraktrains.com






MODERATOR NOTE: New threads on this topic (sleeper cancellations) have been merged into this thread. Thank you for your cooperation in not starting new threads on this topic.


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## Eric in East County

Eric in East County said:


> As many of you will remember, early last June we had to cancel our LD trip to Ohio after our bedroom reservation on SWC No. 4 was shot out from under us when the second sleeper was replaced with a Trans-Dorm sleeper, and we couldn’t be downgrade because the train was sold out.
> 
> Rather than forego this year’s trip we decided to reschedule it to late September-early October.
> 
> On June 16th, Amtrak sold us round trip SWC bedroom accommodations (again in the second sleeper.) One of these was the last bedroom still available.
> 
> This morning, we received the following e-mail:
> 
> “We wanted to let you know that the [second] Sleeper Car has been removed from train #0004, the Southwest Chief, from Los Angeles Union Station on Tuesday, September 20th. We've changed your reservation to standard Coach seating and will refund you for the price difference.
> 
> We're sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks for being a valued Amtrak customer - we'll see you onboard.”
> 
> Since, as seniors, we’re no longer up to making a long-distance train trip in coach, we’ll be contacting Customer Relations to see about rescheduling our trip to June-July 2023 with the stipulation that our SWC bedrooms be in the first sleeper. We’ll keep you posted on how we make out.
> 
> Eric & Pat


Ever since we were notified that our September 20th bedroom reservation on SWC No. 4 had been downgraded to coach, we’d been waiting for “the other shoe to drop” regarding our October 3rd bedroom reservation on SWC No. 3. It finally dropped this morning:

“We wanted to let you know that the Sleeper Car has been removed from train #0003, the Southwest Chief, from Chicago, Illinois on Monday, October 3rd. We've changed your reservation to standard Coach seating and will refund you for the price difference.

We're sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks for being a valued Amtrak customer - we'll see you onboard.”


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## lordsigma

I think there’s certainly a legitimate debate about whether they should ambitiously sell the inventory and then cancel people when they can’t meet it. Or alternatively if they should just sell a base consist with one sleeper and then only add capacity when they determine the consist on the operational side. But that would likely mean a lot more sellouts months in advance which could also affect revenue negatively and make it more difficult to sell a last minute additional sleeper. Again These things are certainly not unique to Amtrak it’s happening with the airlines too. But of course there are a lot more airlines and flights and only one Zephyr and Chief a day.


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## zephyr17

n3rdg1rl said:


> This has been happening for both the California Zephyr and the South West Chief. There are a few other posts saying the same thing. I would call them directly and find out when the next trip is that has availability in the first sleeper.


And the Builder. It was the first one hit. They pulled this stunt in May for the second sleeper during the summer on the Builder.


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## PaunchyPirate

While away on vacation this week, I received an unsolicited email from Amtrak with a new receipt for my trip in late October. I didn't have time to review the details until today. There was no letter explaining any changes. Just a new receipt with ticket details. 

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I was moved from car 632 Roomette #2 to car 631 Roomette # 13 on the CZ on October 30th from Emeryville to Chicago. I booked my trip in late June of this year.


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## zephyr17

mikefinleyco said:


> Amtrak just cancelled our sleeper car reservation for the ca zephyr trip in Sept, and put us in coach, the email says they are removing the sleeper car.
> 
> This a multi leg trip for us with flights and Airbnb stays paid for already and rental cars some of which we can change if we reschedule the trip quickly to different dates and some we can't and will end up losing the money.
> 
> But it seems like even if we reschedule to oct, what stops them from doing this all again to us?
> 
> 
> We haven't called Amtrak yet but wanted to be more informed before I did


If you rebook on the Zephyr, make sure you are in the 31 car. That is the "base" sleeper for the train and they cannot pull that without losing sleeper capacity entirely.

If you elect to switch to one of the other western trains, the 30 car is the "base" sleeper on those.


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## j_ratza

Eric in East County said:


> Ever since we were notified that our September 20th bedroom reservation on SWC No. 4 had been downgraded to coach, we’d been waiting for “the other shoe to drop” regarding our October 3rd bedroom reservation on SWC No. 3. It finally dropped this morning:
> 
> “We wanted to let you know that the Sleeper Car has been removed from train #0003, the Southwest Chief, from Chicago, Illinois on Monday, October 3rd. We've changed your reservation to standard Coach seating and will refund you for the price difference.
> 
> We're sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks for being a valued Amtrak customer - we'll see you onboard.”





minnrider said:


> I just received an email that my reservation on train #5 from Chicago to Emeryville, CA on Oct. 4 has been changed from a roomette to standard coach seating. The explanation is that the sleeper car has been removed. It stated they will refund the price difference; I used Guest Reward points for this trip. I'm definitely not traveling coach for two nights. Out of curiosity, I checked the website and noticed sleepers are "sold out" on train 5 for most dates in Sept./Oct. What's going on? My only option is to just cancel the trip and get a full refund of my points. After 40 years of traveling with Amtrak, I'm ready to give up on the long distance trains. This is just the latest in a long string of issues I've had with Amtrak; e.g. lengthy delays, bus bridges, cancellations, etc. On top of this, I think sleeper fares are outrageously expensive for what you get. My travel dollars are better spent elsewhere.


Just received the same Amtrak message that our trip of 9/26/22 on #6 from Emeryville to Chicago has been downgraded to coach. We were booked in the dread #032 sleeper. Will now be cancelling that leg of the trip and flying home instead. Luckily I have airline miles to do it for free. Also get one full day in the bay area before flying out at night with a early morning arrival home a day earlier. Had been excited about the scenery on the way home but I no longer wish to spend 2 nights in coach.

It's unfortunate ill advised and bad management is prevalent with Amtrak (many other companies too) these days concerning the long distance trains and that they have ignored warnings about this from the beginning of covid. As far as Amtrak the only avenues of recourse is supporting RPA and your congress persons.


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## Eric in East County

lordsigma said:


> I think this is more about short staffing. They are squeezing things right now to try to meet summer demand which is likely straining the employees with minimal extra boards. This is likely to relieve the strain on the limited staff while hiring countinues. I think a good strategy for now on Superliner. Trains is to always shoot for the base sleeper. The problem out west seems to be a mix of mechanical shops (particularly Chicago with the many trains it has to service) and On board service staff more so than T&E.


Adding to the normal, everyday strain being placed on the on-board staff are the very late arrivals. It is our understanding that a Sleeping Car Attendant is only guaranteed four (4) hours of sleep every night. If a long-distance train arrives 7 to 10 hours late, who can blame the OBS staff if they look and behave like walking zombies. Who would want to stay in or apply for a job like that?


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## Sidney

j_ratza said:


> Just received the same Amtrak message that our trip of 9/26/22 on #6 from Emeryville to Chicago has been downgraded to coach. We were booked in the dread #032 sleeper. Will now be cancelling that leg of the trip and flying home instead. Luckily I have airline miles to do it for free. Also get one full day in the bay area before flying out at night with a early morning arrival home a day earlier. Had been excited about the scenery on the way home but I no longer wish to spend 2 nights in coach.
> 
> It's unfortunate ill advised and bad management is prevalent with Amtrak (many other companies too) these days concerning the long distance trains and that they have ignored warnings about this from the beginning of covid. As far as Amtrak the only avenues of recourse is supporting RPA and your congress persons.


That has been the biggest horror story this summer on Amtrak..being downgraded to Coach,either ahead of time via email,or worse at the last minute due to staff shortages or equipment failure. People who purchase a sleeper will not ride Coach for 2 or 3 days straight. 

I am understandably nervous about a trip coming up next Sunday on the 421 from Chicago to LA. All part of another big circle trip. I really don't want any last minute surprises.


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## zephyr17

Sidney said:


> That has been the biggest horror story this summer on Amtrak..being downgraded to Coach,either ahead of time via email,or worse at the last minute due to staff shortages or equipment failure. People who purchase a sleeper will not ride Coach for 2 or 3 days straight.
> 
> I am understandably nervous about a trip coming up next Sunday on the 421 from Chicago to LA. All part of another big circle trip. I really don't want any last minute surprises.


There is only one 421/422 sleeper so I doubt it is at risk. The 2/22 connection that the 422 depends on seems quite dicey with them not holding 22 for 2, but the other direction seems more solid.


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## PaTrainFan

Guess I'm fortunate for my fall trip. I'm in the 00 car on the CL to Chicago...they surely can't cut that one. On my return from the PNW I was deciding between Seattle and Portland on the Builder to MSP and decided on Portland. Hopefully, they don't cut that one either, being the one and only!


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## thully

PaTrainFan said:


> Guess I'm fortunate for my fall trip. I'm in the 00 car on the CL to Chicago...they surely can't cut that one. On my return from the PNW I was deciding between Seattle and Portland on the Builder to MSP and decided on Portland. Hopefully, they don't cut that one either, being the one and only!


I’m happy that I was able to take the Empire Builder without any issues (in 830). Not sure if I feel like playing sleeper roulette again though - even if you get the base sleeper, there is the chance they decide to go to 3 or 5 days/week service and you book one of the unlucky days, or of random cancellations. You basically need a refundable plane ticket as backup (unless you’d rather cancel than fly) - at least airlines have far more flights than Amtrak has LD sleepers in the event of issues.

Also, the trip on the Southwest Chief I was looking at (to or from the Gathering in October) went up considerably in price in the past couple weeks (and is now higher than the Builder booked closer in during summer) - presumably because a good chunk of sleeper inventory was withdrawn. Perhaps I should have booked sooner, though I figured it wasn’t peak season and was kind of waiting to see how this trip went (which was good, though I am kind of tired and may have met my quota of overnight trips for the time being anyway…)


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## lordsigma

Backup flights aren’t really an option for those of us that can’t or won’t fly.


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## tricia

lordsigma said:


> Backup flights aren’t really an option for those of us that can’t or won’t fly.


And for the rest of us, it's a big outlay ... for a trip we've already paid Amtrak for. 

Amtrak should be moving heaven and earth before cancelling long-booked sleeper reservations. The ill will generated by those cancellations will be hugely costly to Amtrak. It's not even just the folks directly affected by those cancellations. There's also the likelihood that other people will rule out Amtrak due to doubt that Amtrak can be relied on. 

A downgrade from sleeper to coach is a deal killer for many, perhaps most customers who make sleeping car reservations on overnight trains. If I can't count on the sleeper being available---even if I've booked and paid for it---I'm likely to not make the reservation.


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## joelkfla

tricia said:


> And for the rest of us, it's a big outlay ... for a trip we've already paid Amtrak for.
> 
> Amtrak should be moving heaven and earth before cancelling long-booked sleeper reservations. The ill will generated by those cancellations will be hugely costly to Amtrak. It's not even just the folks directly affected by those cancellations. There's also the likelihood that other people will rule out Amtrak due to doubt that Amtrak can be relied on.
> 
> A downgrade from sleeper to coach is a deal killer for many, perhaps most customers who make sleeping car reservations on overnight trains. If I can't count on the sleeper being available---even if I've booked and paid for it---I'm likely to not make the reservation.


Maybe Amtrak should ask for volunteers to ride coach in exchange for a full value voucher, like the airlines do (did?) when overbooked. (I haven't flown for a few years, so I don't know whether they still do that.)


----------



## mikefinleyco

From what I'm reading here, I can't see we can plan a trip with Amtrak with their current customer service levels. Our reservations with accommodations, rental cars, and flights are all at the whim of Amtrak honoring our reservations or not, it just appears to be a pure roll of the dice with them at this time.

We didn't need to do any of this trip, it was purely for the joy of riding the California Zephyr for the experience, however, it appears we were naive in how they function.


----------



## lordsigma

mikefinleyco said:


> From what I'm reading here, I can't see we can plan a trip with Amtrak with their current customer service levels. Our reservations with accommodations, rental cars, and flights are all at the whim of Amtrak honoring our reservations or not, it just appears to be a pure roll of the dice with them at this time.
> 
> We didn't need to do any of this trip, it was purely for the joy of riding the California Zephyr for the experience, however, it appears we were naive in how they function.


My suggestion would be give it a year or two. I think they’ll get things straightened out eventually it will just take some time.


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## zephyr17

mikefinleyco said:


> We didn't need to do any of this trip, it was purely for the joy of riding the California Zephyr for the experience, however, it appears we were naive in how they function


Unfortunately, the current Charlie Foxtrot situation is a new, brought to you by Amtrak's crack executive management team of apparent morons who are unable to do capacity planning taking into account a now long known situation of staff and equipment shortages.

Without a firm recovery plan, which they clearly do not have, they have no business releasing more space in the reservation system than that provided in minimum consists. Yes, that will raise prices and also possibly cause them to not maximize return if they add equipment when it actually becomes available and they have to sell it late at lower buckets. But they will not have alienated customers that have built plans around sleeper trips. Which are wholly discretionary for most. Better that one never books at all due to high prices or lack of availability than commit to a trip likely consisting of many moving parts, at least some likely not refundable, and then has the rug ripped out from under them.

People I know are aware that I am Amtrak knowledgeable. And now I am telling them to stay the heck away.

As late as 2020, a sleeper reservation on Amtrak was as close to a sure a thing as possible in the travel world. Yes, extraordinary circumstance like a big derailment, weather emergency or bridge fire could scuttle plans, but cutting a car on a train that will otherwise be operating? Never. Until now.

Hail Stephen Gardner, for plumbing new, unprecedented depths in Amtrak customer service.


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## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> My suggestion would be give it a year or two. I think they’ll get things straightened out eventually it will just take some time.


It is a known situation and has been for a long time now. There is no excuse for these last minute cuts at this point. None. They should never have released inventory for anything above minimum consists until they had a firm handle on the situation and a solid recovery plan. Which in 20/20 hindsight they were very clearly lacking.

Further, I think it is highly possible they won't have a couple of years. Congress allocated unprecedented amounts of money to Amtrak, much of which was conditioned on a return to 2019 service frequencies. They took the money and did not deliver. I think it very possible that the next Congress will look at this enormous cesspit that Amtrak has dug for itself with the additional funds that were provided for it and question what it got for its money. It is within the realm of possibility that this debacle could mean the death of the National Network.


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## 20th Century Rider

Eric in East County said:


> As many of you will remember, early last June we had to cancel our LD trip to Ohio after our bedroom reservation on SWC No. 4 was shot out from under us when the second sleeper was replaced with a Trans-Dorm sleeper, and we couldn’t be downgrade because the train was sold out.
> 
> Rather than forego this year’s trip we decided to reschedule it to late September-early October.
> 
> On June 16th, Amtrak sold us round trip SWC bedroom accommodations (again in the second sleeper.) One of these was the last bedroom still available.
> 
> This morning, we received the following e-mail:
> 
> “We wanted to let you know that the [second] Sleeper Car has been removed from train #0004, the Southwest Chief, from Los Angeles Union Station on Tuesday, September 20th. We've changed your reservation to standard Coach seating and will refund you for the price difference.
> 
> We're sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks for being a valued Amtrak customer - we'll see you onboard.”
> 
> Since, as seniors, we’re no longer up to making a long-distance train trip in coach, we’ll be contacting Customer Relations to see about rescheduling our trip to June-July 2023 with the stipulation that our SWC bedrooms be in the first sleeper. We’ll keep you posted on how we make out.
> 
> Eric & Pat


Don't forget to ask for compensation for the disruption of your travel plans... which you indeed deserve!


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## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> It is a known situation and has been for a long time now. There is no excuse for these last minute cuts at this point. None. They should never have released inventory for anything above minimum consists until they had a firm handle on the situation and a solid recovery plan. Which in 20/20 hindsight they were very clearly lacking.
> 
> Further, I think it is highly possible they won't have a couple of years. Congress allocated unprecedented amounts of money to Amtrak, much of which was conditioned on a return to 2019 service frequencies. They took the money and did not deliver. I think it very possible that the next Congress will look at this enormous cesspit that Amtrak has dug for itself with the additional funds that were provided for it and question what it got for its money. It is within the realm of possibility that this debacle could mean the death of the National Network.


It will take a couple years for them to deal with the operational problems causing low capacity. I agree with you somewhat about selling inventory. At this point they should probably just sell a small amount going forward (1 sleeper) while things are problematic and then if they can add a sleeper great then release the inventory just to prevent the passenger disappointment. The operational/staffing problems are what they are - but how they are managing reservations and passenger notifications is indeed a solvable problem.


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## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> It will take a couple years for them to deal with the operational problems causing low capacity. I agree with you about inventory. At this point they should probably just sell a small amount going forward and then if they can add a sleeper great then release the inventory just to prevent the passenger disappointment. The operational problems are what they are - but how they are managing reservations and passenger notifications is indeed a solvable problem.


That is my main point. They know they are in a pickle operationally, yet continued to sell space they should have been aware that they could not be sure they could provide. The first occurrence was in May on the Builder, then the SW Chief, now the Zephyr. There is simply no excuse for that. Months of relatively last minute, apparently ad hoc, wholesale car line removals. I agree it may take a year or two to get capacity back up close to where it was (probably not all the way because two trainsets got put on the ground). But in the meantime they should only be selling capacity they can be sure they can provide under current conditions. Hoping for the best is not a sound method of inventory management.

And running sleepers as axle count cars is not sound equipment management.


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## Amtrakfflyer

zephyr17 said:


> It is a known situation and has been for a long time now. There is no excuse for these last minute cuts at this point. None. They should never have released inventory for anything above minimum consists until they had a firm handle on the situation and a solid recovery plan. Which in 20/20 hindsight they were very clearly lacking.
> 
> Further, I think it is highly possible they won't have a couple of years. Congress allocated unprecedented amounts of money to Amtrak, much of which was conditioned on a return to 2019 service frequencies. They took the money and did not deliver. I think it very possible that the next Congress will look at this enormous cesspit that Amtrak has dug for itself with the additional funds that were provided for it and question what it got for its money. It is within the realm of possibility that this debacle could mean the death of the National Network.


“It is within the realm of possibility that this debacle could mean the death of the National Network.”



No one here can say for sure that’s not what Gardners end plan goal is. Gardner prior to Covid was as hostile as they come regarding the network. He saw first hand how Anderson going head to head with Congress failed miserably. Now his plan seems to be blame Covid and manpower with a huge amount of buffoonery added in to make sure things fall apart.

Two recent things stick out to me. The Anderson/Gardner plan was to concentrate on corridors and for long distance trains that remained a single food service car. The single food service car we are seeing first hand with the Eagle, CONO (most 1 night trains). If strong rumor is true that the network trains are going to 3x weekly except over corridor sections (ie, the SWC would be daily CHi to KCI and 3x weekly to LAX). This all shows me Gardner is still going through with his agenda from 5 years ago with Anderson. If we see a corridor daily and 3x full route schedule presented, that to me means Amtrak is one press release away from eliminating the network. I just don’t know how we can look at this endless list of blunders and trust Gardner isn’t behind some of it, his past actions make it seem likely. And of course the BOD too.


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## zephyr17

@Amtrakfflyer much as I dislike conspiracy theories, I cannot really disagree with you.


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## Eric in East County

20th Century Rider said:


> Don't forget to ask for compensation for the disruption of your travel plans... which you indeed deserve!


One lesson we learned from having our reservations shot out from under us last June was not to request a refund of the cash and travel points that we’d use to pay for our tickets. When we remade our reservations for later this year, these same trains and accommodations cost us $679 more than they had 6 months earlier! This included having to pay cash for a reservation that had originally been made using travel points. (Our travel points didn’t go as far as they had 6 months earlier!) This time, we’re going to work with Amtrak Customer Relations to reschedule our existing reservations to 2023. By then, the cost for these same trains and accommodations should be even higher than they are now, so we’ll probably save another $679!


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## PaTrainFan

I hate conspiracy theories and negative thinking, but the situation brought by Amtrak on the national network by now is obviously a crisis. Yes, this summer has been challenging from operational, staff and rolling stock standoints. They have somehow muddled through much of the summer with relatively full consists on most trains, with some exceptions and some hiccups. But as we head into the fall, the wheels seem to be coming off. What about the on-board staff they supposedly have hired to get through the summer? Are they going away in the fall? Is Amtrak taking cars out of service to concentrate on getting them back into a state of good repair? Haven't they been hiring craft people in their shops? How about they become a litte more transparent? How about RPA get some answers? How about Congress start putting some pressure on for those answers? If Amtrak was forthright and transparent, most of us here would be more understading and accepting and cut them a break. Their communications are absolutely abysmal. You can't say they are attempting to reach professional level of communication. Right now, who really wants to roll the dice and plan a trip? I am glad my plans are made for the fall and seem solid, but do I know that for sure? No, I can't count on that. But I sure can't think about next year given the current situation. Rant over.


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## 20th Century Rider

Eric in East County said:


> One lesson we learned from having our reservations shot out from under us last June was not to request a refund of the cash and travel points that we’d use to pay for our tickets. When we remade our reservations for later this year, these same trains and accommodations cost us $679 more than they had 6 months earlier! This included having to pay cash for a reservation that had originally been made using travel points. (Our travel points didn’t go as far as they had 6 months earlier!) This time, we’re going to work with Amtrak Customer Relations to reschedule our existing reservations to 2023. By then, the cost for these same trains and accommodations should be even higher than they are now, so we’ll probably save another $679!


You deserve it!


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## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> I hate conspiracy theories and negative thinking, but the situation brought by Amtrak on the national network by now is obviously a crisis. Yes, this summer has been challenging from operational, staff and rolling stock standoints. They have somehow muddled through much of the summer with relatively full consists on most trains, with some exceptions and some hiccups. But as we head into the fall, the wheels seem to be coming off. What about the on-board staff they supposedly have hired to get through the summer? Are they going away in the fall? Is Amtrak taking cars out of service to concentrate on getting them back into a state of good repair? Haven't they been hiring craft people in their shops? How about they become a litte more transparent? How about RPA get some answers? How about Congress start putting some pressure on for those answers? If Amtrak was forthright and transparent, most of us here would be more understading and accepting and cut them a break. Their communications are absolutely abysmal. You can't say they are attempting to reach professional level of communication. Right now, who really wants to roll the dice and plan a trip? I am glad my plans are made for the fall and seem solid, but do I know that for sure? No, I can't count on that. But I sure can't think about next year given the current situation. Rant over.


Amtrak's future will indeed be determined in large extent on how they are navigating this crisis.

Do travel when you can and enjoy the whistle over the hum of the tracks. That is here now. A good opportunity to create memories for tomorrow.


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## UserNameRequired

Noting for information purposes, we were booked in car 532 for 08-29-22. On 08-06-22, they moved us to car 540 trans dorm. So, either the 532 got removed for the 08-29-22 run, or, they started canceling people for 09-01-22 run and people were madly rebooking back into August on the 6th and that’s how we got bumped. We are only going one state over on train 5.

i originally wanted coach for that leg, but booked roomette only because of mask requirements. After the mask requirements ended, the thought was well, may as well just stay in roomette for the traditional dining experience.


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## Devil's Advocate

lordsigma said:


> Backup flights aren’t really an option for those of us that can’t or won’t fly.


I have no problem flying but last minute tickets cost crazy money for a middle seat in the last row.



joelkfla said:


> Maybe Amtrak should ask for volunteers to ride coach in exchange for a full value voucher, like the airlines do (did?) when overbooked. (I haven't flown for a few years, so I don't know whether they still do that.)


On the airlines I fly the loss of a premium cabin is simply refunded. Sometimes it's the amount you paid to upgrade and other times its based on some equation they created. Delays due to overbooking are where the DOT gets involved and the vouchers and credits come out. AA was offering between $400 and $900 per domestic flight (VDB), and when I was younger I might have taken it, but at this point I just wanted to get where I was going without creating any more headaches.



mikefinleyco said:


> From what I'm reading here, I can't see we can plan a trip with Amtrak with their current customer service levels. Our reservations with accommodations, rental cars, and flights are all at the whim of Amtrak honoring our reservations or not, it just appears to be a pure roll of the dice with them at this time.


This is exactly where I'm at right now. I really want to ride but I do not want to be jerked around.


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## joelkfla

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The single food service car we are seeing first hand with the Eagle, CONO and FL trains (most 1 night trains).


Silver Star still has a diner & a cafe. I don't think they could feed 5 coaches + 5 sleepers from a single car.


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## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> This is exactly where I'm at right now. I really want to ride but I do not want to be jerked around.


Nor should you have to put up with this. On my own thoughts... when downgraded I would either go to the station manager or call immediately. If a train is running excessively late I call both Amtrak and the affected hotel so I can either cancel the hotel or have Amtrak give me credit for it... but I act immediately.

If its a major downgrade of services ahead of the trip I also call to reschedule. But these days bring so much uncertainty I guess each traveler needs to step back, be patient, and polite but persistent with reservations and customer service.


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## Asher

20th Century Rider said:


> Nor should you have to put up with this. On my own thoughts... when downgraded I would either go to the station manager or call immediately. If a train is running excessively late I call both Amtrak and the affected hotel so I can either cancel the hotel or have Amtrak give me credit for it... but I act immediately.
> 
> If its a major downgrade of services ahead of the trip I also call to reschedule. But these days bring so much uncertainty I guess each traveler needs to step back, be patient, and polite but persistent with reservations and customer service.


Sounds good, keep us advised how it all works out.


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## SteveSFL

I'm in 631 at the beginning of September but I suppose I could always end up on a non-departure day if they reduce frequency. I made a backup reservation on Southwest with points, which are fully refundable up to departure time. The flight from Oakland to O'hare was the equivalent of about $129.

I think that Amtrak's goal is to eliminate long-distance land-cruise travel. They will keep the national network so that a family with four kids can move from Elko, NV to Hastings, NE with 12 free suitcases, or a hostel-hopping 20-something can travel far and wide while finding himself. Those types of travelers don't need (or can't afford) sleepers or full-service dining anyway.

As long as Amtrak continues to serve rural communities that lack access to other modes of transportation, congress will be happy. They might keep a sleeper on each train and charge exorbitant prices that fully cover the cost of operating it.

I'm glad I did a lot of trips between 2014 and 2020. I fear that my upcoming Zephyr trip will be my last.


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## Devil's Advocate

SteveSFL said:


> I think that Amtrak's goal is to eliminate long-distance land-cruise travel.


Amtrak sleepers are more comfortable than Amtrak coaches but "land cruise" is overselling it IMO.


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## trimetbusfan

SteveSFL said:


> I think that Amtrak's goal is to eliminate long-distance land-cruise travel. They will keep the national network so that a family with four kids can move from Elko, NV to Hastings, NE with 12 free suitcases, or a hostel-hopping 20-something can travel far and wide while finding himself. Those types of travelers don't need (or can't afford) sleepers or full-service dining anyway.



That’s definitely not how Amtrak markets their routes on the media and websites though! (Lots of press about sleeper travel)

Although I feel like Amtk is under a lot of pressure to operate service on the 7 day a week schedule right now. This is unfortunately the result of that. 

While sleeper travel is important, it is ultimately it is public transportation. The fact that they can get you from point A to B in Coach is better than no train at all.


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## greatwestern

lordsigma said:


> Backup flights aren’t really an option for those of us that can’t or won’t fly.


Also, for those of us not in the US even if we booked refundable back up flights, we would be hit by the exchange rate differences between purchasing and selling upon our cancelling the back up. Indeed I will suffer (and did in June this year) when Amtrak (eventually) refund me my accommodation fare on my downgraded CZ booking.


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## lordsigma

I don’t think Amtrak will totally eliminate sleepers and dining cars. But I think they do believe there are areas that would be served better by day running service that are currently served only by a single LD train. And they aren’t wrong in some instances. Though the reasonable way to address that would be to add on service. There may also be some existing trains where a tweak could be warranted. But I don’t think that would happen on a route like the Zephyr. I think the Zephyr is one route they would retain in its present form.

All one has to do is look at the Auto Train - which presently is the company’s only revenue positive operation. That route at least isn’t going anywhere so you’ll always have sleepers there at least.


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## thully

greatwestern said:


> Also, for those of us not in the US even if we booked refundable back up flights, we would be hit by the exchange rate differences between purchasing and selling upon our cancelling the back up. Indeed I will suffer (and did in June this year) when Amtrak (eventually) refund me my accommodation fare on my downgraded CZ booking.



This is a good point - I actually encountered this in the US with VIA. I booked a trip on the Corridor back in June and wanted to change some of my trains. As their website assessed the change fee (rather than give the COVID waiver that was in effect until July 31), and cancelling gave a full refund, I cancelled and rebooked (actually did this multiple times, as I switched two of the trains I was on and upgraded to Business Class on another). However, that meant I got a little bit less back given the conversion and fees (for some reason VIAs site didn’t want to take my card with no exchange fees, and if the exchange rate had changed significantly it could have been worse). When I booked the Canadian I would have gotten hit worse if I had needed to cancel (or had VIA cancel on me, which is thankfully not as big of an issue as with Amtrak), and made a mental note to call if I wanted to change accommodations. Luckily none of that transpired, but I get why you wouldn’t want to make a reservation with a high chance of having to do that (and with a backup flight, you’re guaranteed to have to do it for at least one reservation).

In any case, making backup flight reservations isn’t really a good option, save for people who are willing/able to fly and can afford the initial cash outlay of two reservations. I just wouldn’t want to depend on an Amtrak sleeper reservation as my only option to get from point A to point B right now if I had any alternatives. And in that case it’s probably easier to just fly - though in reality Amtrak should probably be paying for flights if they’re going to do this (two nights in coach with no dining car access and no showers is hardly an acceptable substitute). That still wouldn’t help those who can’t fly/won’t fly or for whom the train is the point of the trip, but it would at least be a better option for many. Perhaps if Congress made them do that (and/or pay a considerable cash penalty) they’d either prioritize fixing their equipment/staffing issues or stop selling sleeper tickets that they’re not sure they can honor.


----------



## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> And the Builder. It was the first one hit. They pulled this stunt in May for the second sleeper during the summer on the Builder.


And the Texas Eagle when they pulled the Transdorm and only run 1 Sleeper even on #421/#422 Days, which means the OBS have to use Roomettes in the Revenue Sleeper resulting in SOLD OUT/High Bucket Rooms!


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> I don’t think Amtrak will totally eliminate sleepers and dining cars. But I think they do believe there are areas that would be served better by day running service that are currently served only by a single LD train. And they aren’t wrong in some instances. Though the reasonable way to address that would be to add on service. There may also be some existing trains where a tweak could be warranted. But I don’t think that would happen on a route like the Zephyr. I think the Zephyr is one route they would retain in its present form.
> 
> All one has to do is look at the Auto Train - which presently is the company’s only revenue positive operation. That route at least isn’t going anywhere so you’ll always have sleepers there at least.


See the SP Playbook from the 50s/60s when the Plan was "Run em Off/Train Off" even on their Crack Train, The Sunset Ltd.

Chair cars only, Rude Staff, Horrible OTP, DIrty/Broken down Equipment,Agents telling Potential Customers the Trains were "SOLD OUT"and Vending Machines for your Nourishment for the 2 day/2 night Trip.

Sound familiar?


----------



## n3rdg1rl

I have 6 roomette and 2 sleeper trips coming up in the next 6 months. I am so nervous that it's going to be all screwed up.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> See the SP Playbook from the 50s/60s when the Plan was "Run em Off/Train Off" even on their Crack Train, The Sunset Ltd.
> 
> Chair cars only, Rude Staff, Horrible OTP, DIrty/Broken down Equipment,Agents telling Potential Customers the Trains were "SOLD OUT"and Vending Machines for your Nourishment for the 2 day/2 night Trip.
> 
> Sound familiar?


What's a rail buff to do??? I keep on being my own psychiatrist telling myself to come prepared with as much food and drink as I can carry, then retreat to the privacy of my room; ignoring the broken this and that... paying no attention to rude staff... and just looking out the window and enjoy the wheels rolling beneath... and the sound of the whistle. 

'Little old me' ain't gonna change the dysfunctionality of the Amtrak bureaucracy so one must camouflage into the landscape and get what can be gotten from what's real and what's available. Unfortunately the ethic of 'customers first' has faded and adaptability and flexibility allow one to get what positives there are to be gotten out of a rail experience.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

n3rdg1rl said:


> I have 6 roomette and 2 sleeper trips coming up in the next 6 months. I am so nervous that it's going to be all screwed up.


Same here with three sleeper coast to coast trips in December, January, and February... when mid winter ridership allows availability ... although I've had to 'flex myself' to pay high buckets on many segments.

Along with that I know to pack a lot of patience and flexibility... food and drink sustenance, and as Winston Churchill said, "A stiff upper lip!"


----------



## Bonser

lordsigma said:


> This isn’t meant to make excuses and I understand your frustration. But in fairness the airline industry has had far from a model summer with many of the same problems and has had to drop flights at a moment’s notice, cut flights routes etc without much notice for much the same reasons. Obviously despite all this the airline industry has infinitely more capacity so eventually there’s a flight they can get you on - and for most people a coach seat on an airline is more likely to be tolerated due to the shorter trip. With the extremely limited capacity of once daily overnight train routes it can be impossible to reaccomodate someone without making someone endure an overnight coach trip as remaining sleepers can be sold out for days.
> 
> At the end of the day for most people flying is a necessity while overnight train is discretionary - hence people are going to have higher expectations for Amtrak and a lower threshold for “never again.” Which is the dilemma faced when these things happen.


Whatever the reason Amtrak is seriously screwing up. And I'd venture to say that most coach passengers aren't discretionary ones either. Over the years almost all I've talked were just trying to get from Point A to Point B.


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## Trucker72

Just so everyone knows what they are up against. I called customer service about 2 hours ago. I got transferred to customer relations. Message said a 7 minute wait and I opted for a call back which I promptly received. I was number 1 in line. 40 minutes later I gave up and called back. A very nice customer service agent tried to get someone in customer relations to pick up. She must have given up because after about 10 minutes I was back waiting for customer relations to pick up. 53 minutes later I'm still waiting. Also I am assuming that they don't have enough people to actually staff the Select Plus special handling number. You "talk" to a recording and when "it" can't help you it appears you just get dumped into the standard customer service lines. Got to love what Covid has done to this country.


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## Trucker72

So they picked up after about 75 minutes. She insists that car 532 has an electrical problem now so they are pulling it from all the west bound CZ trains. She also told me that although the email I received from Amtrak says that the car has been pulled and that my wife and I are now in coach is not what she shows. She says that we had NO seats on the train. What is going on?


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## PeeweeTM

Amtrak sent me an email which updated my trip from Fullerton to Chicago on October 9.
I was moved from car 431 to 430 and had a change of rooms.

I'm happy for now, but as long as I'm not back in Rotterdam a lot can happen...


----------



## Palmland

I wonder if there is a different protocol for Auto Train passengers. As unpleasant as my 10 hour late trip was in May their customer service was good. Had repeated updates on the status of my late departure then a call the day after my trip offering a voucher for the full value of the trip without my asking. We’ll try again on October.


----------



## lordsigma

Bob Dylan said:


> See the SP Playbook from the 50s/60s when the Plan was "Run em Off/Train Off" even on their Crack Train, The Sunset Ltd.
> 
> Chair cars only, Rude Staff, Horrible OTP, DIrty/Broken down Equipment,Agents telling Potential Customers the Trains were "SOLD OUT"and Vending Machines for your Nourishment for the 2 day/2 night Trip.
> 
> Sound familiar?



Not really. I have had some recent good trips. I don’t think todays problems have anything to do with the SP in the 50s/60s. As much as some don’t want to believe - there are legitimate workforce/economic problems contributing to the current situation - it’s not a massive management conspiracy. I think they could do a better job of customer relations on the reservation side of things and perhaps they should reduce the amount of capacity they’re selling in advance to prevent ticking people off with cancellations - but I believe the operational/workforce problems are what they are.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Not really. I have had some recent good trips. I don’t think todays problems have anything to do with the SP in the 50s/60s. As much as some don’t want to believe - there are legitimate workforce/economic problems contributing to the current situation - it’s not a massive management conspiracy. I think they could do a better job of customer relations on the reservation side of things and perhaps they should reduce the amount of capacity they’re selling in advance to prevent ticking people off with cancellations - but I believe the operational/workforce problems are what they are.


Speaking of the CZ and current situation... I've never seen it this bad... snap shots taken today, AUG 15 at 1:10 PST... two eastbound 5's sitting on the tracks... one running 14 hours late. Equipment problems? Two in a row???


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> Not really. I have had some recent good trips. I don’t think todays problems have anything to do with the SP in the 50s/60s. As much as some don’t want to believe - there are legitimate workforce/economic problems contributing to the current situation - it’s not a massive management conspiracy. I think they could do a better job of customer relations on the reservation side of things and perhaps they should reduce the amount of capacity they’re selling in advance to prevent ticking people off with cancellations - but I believe the operational/workforce problems are what they are.


And who's to blame for this Cluster Flub?

If you said Amtrak Management you Win the Grand Prize!( No offense to you, but things are getting Worse Daily @ Amtrak)

"They All Do it and its the Workers Fault!" is the Oldest Failed Manzgement Excuse there is!

Every Department in Amtrak is in disarray, with Paying Customers being the one a who take the blows as the Suits continue to Cash their Bonus Checks!
And The Beat Goes On!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> And who's to blame for this Cluster Flub?
> 
> If you said Amtrak Management you Win the Grand Prize!( No offense to you, but things are getting Worse Daily @ Amtrak)
> 
> Every Department in Amtrak is in disarray, with Paying Customers being the one a who take the blows as the Suits continue to Cash their Bonus Checks as The Beat Goes On!


Sooo what next??? I have three trips now booked on the CZ going east for December, January, and February!!! In my hopeful mind I am thinking staffing and equipment issues will be resolved by then? BTW am my rooms on that segment are all high bucket... either I'm a real fool or ... maybe I am indeed just that!


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Sooo what next??? I have three trips now booked on the CZ going east for December, January, and February!!! In my hopeful mind I am thinking staffing and equipment issues will be resolved by then? BTW am my rooms on that segment are all high bucket... either I'm a real fool or ... maybe I am indeed just that!


Stay tuned, the Rumours are flying about 3 and 5 day Schedules, Diner and Sleeper removals, Cancellations and more Schedule " Improvemnts" for LD Routes ( see the Crescent).

And the Beat Goes On as Nero plays his Fiddle!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Stay tuned, the Rumours are flying about 3 and 5 day Schedules, Diner and Sleeper removals, Cancellations and more Schedule " Improvemnts" for LD Routes ( see the Crescent).
> 
> And the Beat Goes On as Nero plays his Fiddle!


Looks like the best thing to do is to crawl in bed and hide underneath the blankets!


----------



## trimetbusfan

20th Century Rider said:


> Speaking of the CZ and current situation... I've never seen it this bad... snap shots taken today, AUG 15 at 1:10 PST... two eastbound 5's sitting on the tracks... one running 14 hours late. Equipment problems? Two in a row???
> 
> View attachment 29229


Some part of the track between Green River and SLC was washed out. 5 became 6 and 6 became 5, they are putting people on a bus to get through the affected area.


----------



## wrowland

lordsigma said:


> I think this is more about short staffing. They are squeezing things right now to try to meet summer demand which is likely straining the employees with minimal extra boards. This is likely to relieve the strain on the limited staff while hiring countinues. I think a good strategy for now on Superliner. Trains is to always shoot for the base sleeper. The problem out west seems to be a mix of mechanical shops (particularly Chicago with the many trains it has to service) and On board service staff more so than T&E.


They are pulling sleeper cars for trips in Oct as well. 11Oct2022 departure for us, gone now.


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## zephyr17

wrowland said:


> They are pulling sleeper cars for trips in Oct as well. 11Oct2022 departure for us, gone now.


Train 5/6?

They likely pulled the 32 car line until at least the holidays all at the same time. They just didn't notify you immediately. That is what they did with the Builder. They cancelled the second sleeper in May through at least the end of the year, but didn't notify people until shortly before their travel dates, some as little as a week. At least they gave you more notice than that.

At this point, anyone in 532/632 from mid to late August on should assume their sleeper has been cancelled. The best way I know to know for sure prior to the official notification is to look at your reservation in the app. If the QR code is gone, your reservation has been likely cancelled. That appears to show up almost as soon as the inventory is yanked. In that case, call immediately, you may get in front of the crowd for reaccommodation and have a better chance at snagging something in the remaining car for your travel date or an alternative.

While I am in the "base" sleepers for my November trip, I am checking every few days, just in case. Especially if Amtrak decides to violate the law again and go to less than daily.


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## Rasputin

20th Century Rider said:


> Looks like the best thing to do is to crawl in bed and hide underneath the blankets!


Staying home is a definite and preferred option this year.


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## Eric in East County

Here’s a question for what it’s worth: Let’s say you have a confirmed reservation for a bedroom in a long-distance train’s first sleeper (for example, the 330 Car on SWC No. 3.) Knowing that it is unlikely this car will be removed from the consist, you decide to forgo your trip and allow a family member or close friend to have that bedroom in your place. How would you go about transferring that bedroom to them without losing it to someone else?


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## zephyr17

Eric in East County said:


> Here’s a question for what it’s worth: Let’s say you have a confirmed reservation for a bedroom in a long-distance train’s first sleeper (for example, the 330 Car on SWC No. 3.) Knowing that it is unlikely this car will be removed from the consist, you decide to forgo your trip and allow a family member or close friend to have that bedroom in your place. How would you go about transferring that bedroom to them without losing it to someone else?


Call. They might be able to do it, particularly the more knowledgeable and experienced AGR agents. Might trigger price change to current bucket, though.

Don't even think about trying to do it on the website.


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## coalman

Is the dining room service still available after sept on CZ and SWC? If the dining car is still there, will you be able to eat prepared meals if you are in business?


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## coalman

The Texas Eagle has October 2022 roomette reservations. Does the TE have a dining car and viewliner car all the way through?


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## Rasputin

coalman said:


> The Texas Eagle has October 2022 roomette reservations. Does the TE have a dining car and viewliner car all the way through?


The Texas Eagle had no dining car and no Sightseer Lounge car between Chicago and San Antonio. Others who have ridden the train lately can probably provide more information. Some of us are avoiding the Texas Eagle because of the downgrading of its amenities.


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## zephyr17

coalman said:


> The Texas Eagle has October 2022 roomette reservations. Does the TE have a dining car and viewliner car all the way through?


The Eagle does not have a Sightseer Lounge or dining car. Flex meals are provided in a diner/lounge.

Through Eagle passengers use the Sunset's diner with traditional dining service and a Sightseer Lounge between Los Angeles and San Antonio.


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## zephyr17

coalman said:


> Is the dining room service still available after sept on CZ and SWC? If the dining car is still there, will you be able to eat prepared meals if you are in business?


No plans to go back to flex on the CZ or SWC.

There is no Business Class on either train. Coach has no access to the diner.


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## Sidney

zephyr17 said:


> The Eagle does not have a Sightseer Lounge or dining car. Flex meals are provided in a diner/lounge.
> 
> Through Eagle passengers use the Sunset's diner with traditional dining service and a Sightseer Lounge between Los Angeles and San Antonio.


421 is a better choice than 422. If you are going from Chicago to LA,you'll have the much superior(sightseer car,traditional dining) ride to look forward to after San Antonio. On 422,the downgrade is striking,plus there is a good chance you will miss the connection and will be bussed. Always pleasant being chased from your room very early in the morning.


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## TinCan782

Rasputin said:


> The Texas Eagle had no dining car and no Sightseer Lounge car between Chicago and San Antonio. Others who have ridden the train lately can probably provide more information. Some of us are avoiding the Texas Eagle because of the downgrading of its amenities.


Today's (15 Aug) #22 has a dining car as seen here at Big Sandy, Texas. No SSL though.
I usually see a dining car when I view the TE here.


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## Bonser

20th Century Rider said:


> Speaking of the CZ and current situation... I've never seen it this bad... snap shots taken today, AUG 15 at 1:10 PST... two eastbound 5's sitting on the tracks... one running 14 hours late. Equipment problems? Two in a row???
> 
> View attachment 29229


The CZ has been awful since June.


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## Rasputin

TinCan782 said:


> Today's (15 Aug) #22 has a dining car as seen here at Big Sandy, Texas. No SSL though.
> I usually see a dining car when I view the TE here.


Thanks for posting that. So the Texas Eagle does have a dining car but it does not have traditional dining, is that correct?
If so, I guess it probably should be called a "Flex Meal Car."


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## zephyr17

TinCan782 said:


> Today's (15 Aug) #22 has a dining car as seen here at Big Sandy, Texas. No SSL though.
> I usually see a dining car when I view the TE here.
> 
> View attachment 29234
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 29235


That is a diner/lounge, rebuilt from a diner and looking the same externally.

The Texas Eagle serves only reheated flex meals, despite the fact that the diner/lounges retain a full Superliner diner galley downstairs.


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## zephyr17

Rasputin said:


> Thanks for posting that. So the Texas Eagle does have a dining car but it does not have traditional dining, is that correct?
> If so, I guess it probably should be called a "Flex Meal Car."


Diner/lounge, unable to distinguish a diner/lounge rebuilt from a diner externally except by car number.


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## Larry H.

When all the talk about how much money would be going to Amtrak and upgrading of the cars and diners, I was really thinking of taking another trip long distance. But these unacceptable downgrades of service are really a huge disappointment. I guess I will still not be going rail any distance, my guess is Amtrak doesn't really give a hoot.


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## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> That is a diner/lounge, rebuilt from a diner and looming the same externally.
> 
> The Texas Eagle serves only reheated flex meals, despite the fact that the diner/lounges retain a full Superliner diner galley downstairs.


Also, the Diner/Lounge is NOT a Diner Lounge since most of the Eaglette Crews make you eat in your Rooms( Sleeping Car Passengers) , and Coach Passengers have Very Short Periods where the One LSA ( most of the time they're busy with Sleeper Meals)opens the Cafe end of the Car and then they must go back to their Seats to eat and drink!


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## daybeers

lordsigma said:


> FRA also recently expanded mandatory drug testing to mechanical employees


LOL they're shooting themselves in the foot.

@20th Century Rider 5 & 6 have been in the black nearly every day this summer.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> Speaking of the CZ and current situation... I've never seen it this bad... snap shots taken today, AUG 15 at 1:10 PST... two eastbound 5's sitting on the tracks... one running 14 hours late. Equipment problems? Two in a row???
> 
> View attachment 29229


Not equipment problems. Wash out in Utah. CZ has had some bad luck this summer. While there have been some Chicago mech issues the UP is in full meltdown which is the majority of it.


----------



## John819

It seems that the sleeper cancellation issues are (at least for now) limited to the Superliners. That would indicate that equipment shortages, not OBS shortages, are the major issue. Remember we have deferred maintenance over the COVID period, cars out of service allegedly for refurbishment, and two major derailments where I expect legal will hold the cars out of service until all litigation is resolved.

If management were competent (note the use of the subjective) they would be working with Siemens now on a new sleeping car to put into the production pipeline.


----------



## lordsigma

John819 said:


> It seems that the sleeper cancellation issues are (at least for now) limited to the Superliners. That would indicate that equipment shortages, not OBS shortages, are the major issue. Remember we have deferred maintenance over the COVID period, cars out of service allegedly for refurbishment, and two major derailments where I expect legal will hold the cars out of service until all litigation is resolved.
> 
> If management were competent (note the use of the subjective) they would be working with Siemens now on a new sleeping car to put into the production pipeline.


It’s a combination of both. OBS is also tight. Two night routes particularly strain the OBS bases due to the long trips so it’s unsurprising that OBS shortages would affect those routes the most. Dropping a single sleeper off the Zephyr reduces the strain on Chicago significantly for instance as each full sleeper required a crew member to go out and back for the whole two night route every day.


----------



## pennyk

I received the dreaded email today. I was in a bedroom in car 330 on 10/4 and have been downgraded to coach.


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> It’s a combination of both. OBS is also tight. Two night routes particularly strain the OBS bases due to the long trips so it’s unsurprising that OBS shortages would affect those routes the most. Dropping a single sleeper off the Zephyr reduces the strain on Chicago significantly for instance as each full sleeper required a crew member to go out and back for the whole two night route every day.


What about Amtrak's only 3-night train, the Texas Eagle? Do the car attendants go all the way, or are they swapped at San Antonio?


----------



## trimetbusfan

joelkfla said:


> What about Amtrak's only 3-night train, the Texas Eagle? Do the car attendants go all the way, or are they swapped at San Antonio?


They swap in San Antonio


----------



## wrowland

pennyk said:


> I received the dreaded email today. I was in a bedroom in car 330 on 10/4 and have been downgraded to coach.


I thought cars that ended in 30 were immune; was your trip with CZ, if so it's 31 that's immune if i recall right.


----------



## pennyk

wrowland said:


> I thought cars that ended in 30 were immune; was your trip with CZ, if so it's 31 that's immune if i recall right.


My trip is on the Southwest Chief in 330 and 430. I was downgraded to coach on the segment in 330. I thought the first sleeper would be immune. Apparently not. I am on hold to speak to an AGR agent right now. The trip was paid with points. Amtrak has already put some points back into my account, but not enough.


----------



## SteveSFL

We have seen one report of a person in the 2nd sleeper roomette being moved to roomette in first sleeper, but most of the other downgrades reported seem to be bedrooms. I suppose this is due to less likelihood of bedroom being open in the first sleeper?


----------



## thully

pennyk said:


> My trip is on the Southwest Chief in 330 and 430. I was downgraded to coach on the segment in 330. I thought the first sleeper would be immune. Apparently not. I am on hold to speak to an AGR agent right now. The trip was paid with points. Amtrak has already put some points back into my account, but not enough.


That’s disappointing, particularly as that would mean you miss the Gathering. Wondering why they would cancel your trip in the first sleeper, particularly as the train is still running as of now - only things I can think of is the room itself is unusable for some reason, they need rooms for crew (though I’d think those would be roomettes), or they decided to bump based on something other than what sleeper you’re in.


----------



## pennyk

thully said:


> That’s disappointing, particularly as that would mean you miss the Gathering. Wondering why they would cancel your trip in the first sleeper, particularly as the train is still running as of now - only things I can think of is the room itself is unusable for some reason, they need rooms for crew (though I’d think those would be roomettes), or they decided to bump based on something other than what sleeper you’re in.


I was told by the agent that my sleeper was removed and the only space on the train is in coach. Yes, I will miss the Gathering.

Edit to add that I looked at the website for that date 10/4 and sleepers are sold out and coach is 80% full.


----------



## Steve4031

I am done with Amtrak until this mess is straightened out. I’m not going to pay months ahead of time only to have something like this happen. The USA is rapidly becoming a 3rd world country


----------



## river

Downgrading your highly anticipated trip reservation from sleeper to coach is way worse than no flex meals being boarded. You have my sympathy.


----------



## wrowland

pennyk said:


> My trip is on the Southwest Chief in 330 and 430. I was downgraded to coach on the segment in 330. I thought the first sleeper would be immune. Apparently not. I am on hold to speak to an AGR agent right now. The trip was paid with points. Amtrak has already put some points back into my account, but not enough.


Now this scares the heck out of me; we were already booted from our family bedroom on the CZ departing Oct 11th and the one back on 17Oct. Rebooked on SWC to get to Cali and empire builder to get back....all in 30 cars except for a transition car on SWC, car 340 departing CHI on 13Oct. If the primary cars are being removed that's scary.


----------



## trimetbusfan

.


pennyk said:


> My trip is on the Southwest Chief in 330 and 430. I was downgraded to coach on the segment in 330. I thought the first sleeper would be immune. Apparently not. I am on hold to speak to an AGR agent right now. The trip was paid with points. Amtrak has already put some points back into my account, but not enough.


Makes you wonder if they are going to run the SWC with just a transdorm and nothing else


----------



## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> My trip is on the Southwest Chief in 330 and 430. I was downgraded to coach on the segment in 330. I thought the first sleeper would be immune. Apparently not. I am on hold to speak to an AGR agent right now. The trip was paid with points. Amtrak has already put some points back into my account, but not enough.


No chance of going on to NYP and riding the LSL to CHI Penny???


----------



## Bob Dylan

Steve4031 said:


> I am done with Amtrak until this mess is straightened out. I’m not going to pay months ahead of time only to have something like this happen. The USA is rapidly becoming a 3rd world country


Well, Amtrak and the Airlines for sure!


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> No chance of going on to NYP and riding the LSL to CHI Penny???


Those were my plans


----------



## pennyk

trimetbusfan said:


> .
> 
> Makes you wonder if they are going to run the SWC with just a transdorm and nothing else


I have a friend who is in a roomette in the same car, same day and he has not received the "email." Maybe only bedroom passengers were bumped or Amtrak has not gotten around to downgrading all passengers. Maybe bedrooms first. I made that reservation 11 months in advance.


----------



## jebr

Bob Dylan said:


> Well, Amtrak and the Airlines for sure!


At least with the airlines there's usually options for rerouting that don't add multiple days, and once you're on board the equipment generally works okay (and if it doesn't it's a couple of hours instead of multiple days.) HVAC issues on my last Amtrak trip (in coach) mixed with all the other issues have turned me off from taking long Amtrak trips for now.


----------



## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> Those were my plans


Sorry, my bad! I thought you were bumped on the Cap, not the Chief.

Hope you get all your Points back including your Hotels!

I'm on the #422 coming home with a couple of other AUers, and now Wondering if our Rooms are in Jeporday since there's only 1 Sleeper on the Texas Eaglete now

Is this anyway to run a Railroad??


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> I am done with Amtrak until this mess is straightened out. I’m not going to pay months ahead of time only to have something like this happen. The USA is rapidly becoming a 3rd world country


Some third world countries might beg to differ since they do now run a more reliable railway where reservations don’t vaporize that often and even freight trains don’t fall off the tracks every day.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Sorry, my bad! I thought you were bumped on the Cap, not the Chief.
> 
> Hope you get all your Points back including your Hotels!
> 
> I'm on the #422 coming home with a couple of other AUers, and now Wondering if our Rooms are in Jeporday since there's only 1 Sleeper on the Texas Eaglete now
> 
> Is this anyway to run a Railroad??


True! It's no way to run a railway... it's appalling! There seem to be 'three roots to this evil'

1] the pandemic has impacted the work force... so fewer to service and repair the trains
2] overall deterioration of the tracks and lack of cooperation from freight lines
3] management management management


----------



## Sidney

jis said:


> Some third world countries might beg to differ since they do now run a more reliable railway where reservations don’t vaporize that often and even freight trains don’t fall off the tracks every day.


The braintrust that runs Amtrak probably don't see any difference in Coach and Sleeper as long as they get you to your destination. Yeah,being demoted from a sleeper to Coach where you are sitting up for three days and two nights is the same.

Have any Amtrak execs ever been on an overnight train in Coach?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sidney said:


> The braintrust that runs Amtrak probably don't see any difference in Coach and Sleeper as long as they get you to your destination. Yeah,being demoted from a sleeper to Coach where you are sitting up for three days and two nights is the same.
> 
> Have any Amtrak execs ever been on an overnight train in Coach?


Or dined on Amtrak Cafe Cuisine?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> The braintrust that runs Amtrak probably don't see any difference in Coach and Sleeper as long as they get you to your destination. Yeah,being demoted from a sleeper to Coach where you are sitting up for three days and two nights is the same.
> 
> Have any Amtrak execs ever been on an overnight train in Coach?


Of course not! For those folks there's a special observation lounge car to inspect the system... while feasting on champaign and caviar.


----------



## mikewrite

trimetbusfan said:


> Some part of the track between Green River and SLC was washed out. 5 became 6 and 6 became 5, they are putting people on a bus to get through the affected area.



Any word on how long this washout will take to repair?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

mikewrite said:


> Any word on how long this washout will take to repair?


Per the tracker it appears to be fixed. 6 is on the move south/east of Provo.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

AmtrakBlue said:


> Per the tracker it appears to be fixed. 6 is on the move south/east of Provo.


Yes... it looks like both 6's are running now. You just gotta wonder how the mis connect disruptions through CHI is effecting the hundreds of passengers with tight schedules and places to be. You also have to wonder how the over flooded res system and customer service center can handle all the needed fixes... further burdening a tired system.


----------



## wrowland

pennyk said:


> I have a friend who is in a roomette in the same car, same day and he has not received the "email." Maybe only bedroom passengers were bumped or Amtrak has not gotten around to downgrading all passengers. Maybe bedrooms first. I made that reservation 11 months in advance.


The car appears to have been pulled; based on what I am hearing your friend may not get the email until a week or 2 before trip....by then everything will be sold out. Check app to see if it's been changed without even an email.


----------



## pennyk

wrowland said:


> The car appears to have been pulled; based on what I am hearing your friend may not get the email until a week or 2 before trip....by then everything will be sold out. Check app to see if it's been changed without even an email.


Thanks, I will alert the friends (if they are not reading this thread)


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Gary Behling said:


> Just out of curiosity, in regard to those whose sleeping car reservations were cancelled, is there any way to possibly avoid this situation by either making your reservations 11 months in advance OR by knowing which sleeping car most likely might be cancelled so as to make your reservations in a different sleeping car on the same train?


I'm trying to get through now regarding my sleeper reservations... on hold over an hour... no doubt because so many are trying to get through as well... due to cancellations and / changes.

Law of diminishing returns...


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Did get through to reservations to book my third winter season trip... and was told by an agent who I know from many previous calls, that the situation would improve by Thanksgiving. Don't know anything more than that regarding all the problems; I have three coast to coast sleeper trips during the winter months... December, January, and February. All reservations were just checked and there is no indication that any cars will be removed.

Yup... what they say and what actually happens can vary due to breakdowns, weather, etc. But I choose to be optimistic at this time; and if something does happen, will try to be as malleable as possible... that's all I can do.


----------



## n3rdg1rl

It's so bizarre to have to check the app every day for a trip that is 5 months away. I just rather find out now than 2 weeks ahead (if I'm lucky.) So far so good for the Eagle in January.


----------



## Eric in East County

pennyk said:


> My trip is on the Southwest Chief in 330 and 430. I was downgraded to coach on the segment in 330. I thought the first sleeper would be immune. Apparently not. I am on hold to speak to an AGR agent right now. The trip was paid with points. Amtrak has already put some points back into my account, but not enough.


Would the fact that your sleeping car accommodations were paid for using points have anything to do with you being bumped from an “immune” sleeper? (If your accommodations ended up going to someone who paid cash, that would really be an outrage!)


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Anyone know when Gardner or Harris is supposed to appear in front of Congress next? Some hard questions need to be asked regarding the long distance trains and answers need to be verified just taken at face value. The system is in utter chaos and getting worse by the day. Like @n3rdg1rl said above I’d also like to know if my Christmas trip is safe.


----------



## zephyr17

Sidney said:


> Have any Amtrak execs ever been on an overnight train in Coach?


I doubt you could count on them ever having been aboard a long distance train at all.


----------



## Eric in East County

In a classic example of dé·jà vu, we’ve been repeatedly receiving automated voice messages telling us that our sleeping car accommodations have been downgraded to coach. (This is in addition to several e-mails telling us the same thing.) The Amtrak reservations computer must be having a meltdown!


----------



## pennyk

Eric in East County said:


> Would the fact that your sleeping car accommodations were paid for using points have anything to do with you being bumped from an “immune” sleeper? (If your accommodations ended up going to someone who paid cash, that would really be an outrage!)


I was thinking the same thing since a friend who paid with cash for a roomette in the same car has not received an email and his room is still visible on his reservation. I made the reservation 11 months in advance and have Select Executive status and will be very disappointed if I was singled out.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

pennyk said:


> I was thinking the same thing since a friend who paid with cash for a roomette in the same car has not received an email and his room is still visible on his reservation. I made the reservation 11 months in advance and have Select Executive status and will be very disappointed if I was singled out.


Ouch, I too have to wonder if this has happened. They need the base sleeper to meet the ADA requirements.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Was just reassured by reservations that Amtrak will never leave a pax stranded with a misconnect; will find you a place to sleep... and meals... and if downgraded to coach will always provide other options / rescheduling. I believe this to be true and have experienced this care in the past. My biggest concern is having to cancel hotel reservations past the xcl deadline and losing the deposit. Occasionally the hotel will relent but with the big conglomerates you take the loss. That would need to be requested along with inconvenience travel voucher. My other concern is when a sudden disruption enroute necessitates an instant downgrade to coach for the night segment. This has never happened to me and I travel cross country in sleepers 3 or 4 times a year.

To be fair to Amtrak... major delays and disruptions have always resulted in adequate compensation. And in the case of the lost hotel deposit, Amtrak is putting you up and compensating you for that deposit as part of the inconvenience voucher. This has happened to me so many times... and every time I come out ahead.

I personally give the res agents a lot or respect and credit for working tireless hours to deal with all these disruptions!


----------



## pennyk

20th Century Rider said:


> Was just reassured by reservations that Amtrak will never leave a pax stranded with a misconnect; will find you a place to sleep... and meals... and if downgraded to coach will always provide other options / rescheduling. I believe this to be true and have experienced this care in the past. My biggest concern is having to cancel hotel reservations past the xcl deadline and losing the deposit. Occasionally the hotel will relent but with the big conglomerates you take the loss. That would need to be requested along with inconvenience travel voucher. My other concern is when a sudden disruption enroute necessitates an instant downgrade to coach for the night segment. This has never happened to me and I travel cross country in sleepers 3 or 4 times a year.
> 
> To be fair to Amtrak... major delays and disruptions have always resulted in adequate compensation. And in the case of the lost hotel deposit, Amtrak is putting you up and compensating you for that deposit as part of the inconvenience voucher. This has happened to me so many times... and every time I come out ahead.
> 
> I personally give the res agents a lot or respect and credit for working tireless hours to deal with all these disruptions!


Amtrak offered me no options other than coach on my 8 train cross country trip where I was downgraded from bedroom to coach on one segment.


----------



## zephyr17

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Ouch, I too have to wonder if this has happened. They need the base sleeper to meet the ADA requirements.


Some transdorms have H rooms, not all. They vary.

I was thinking @pennyk maybe got a notified earlier due her status, and that friend just hasn't gotten notified. Amtrak has not exactly been timely with notifications throughout this mess. I think that friend may still be at risk.

I find pulling a 30 car very, very disturbing, as if pulling booked sleepers at all weren't disturbing enough.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

pennyk said:


> Amtrak offered me no options other than coach on my 8 train cross country trip where I was downgraded from bedroom to coach on one segment.


You got the ultimate downgrade and have every right to be angry. Undoubtedly they will give you adequate inconvenience compensation and reschedule you. If you are going to the gathering you don't have the flexibility for rescheduling... 

RE the res agent... did that agent offer you no more options??? Reroute??? Compensation??? What did they say??? And although it is painful to have to call back [wait wait wait... we all get it!] you should attempt a call back. Did you?


----------



## zephyr17

20th Century Rider said:


> You got the ultimate downgrade and have every right to be angry. Undoubtedly they will give you adequate inconvenience compensation and reschedule you. If you are going to the gathering you don't have the flexibility for rescheduling...
> 
> RE the res agent... did that agent offer you no more options??? Reroute??? Compensation??? What did they say??? And although it is painful to have to call back [wait wait wait... we all get it!] you should attempt a call back. Did you?


That would be a Customer Relations issue for me. If I got an agent that could not or would not explore options, I'd ask to be transferred to Customer Relations.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

pennyk said:


> Amtrak offered me no options other than coach on my 8 train cross country trip where I was downgraded from bedroom to coach on one segment.





zephyr17 said:


> That would be a Customer Relations issue for me. If I got an agent that could not or would not explore options, I'd ask to be transferred to Customer Relations.


Yes... but sometimes it is easier to just call back. Especially with Exec Plus status... an 8 segment trip... and still a few months away... there should be many opportunities for a justified routing change; especially when one segment has been downgraded from top sleeper accommodation bedroom to coach seat on an overnight segment.


----------



## zephyr17

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes... but sometimes it is easier to just call back. Especially with Exec Plus status... an 8 segment trip... and still a few months away... there should be many opportunities for a justified routing change; especially when one segment has been downgraded from top sleeper accommodation bedroom to coach seat on an overnight segment.


Yes, but there is something to be said for speaking to Customer Relations while the reservation is still somewhat in limbo, before they can lock down a downgrade or especially a cancellation. Once a cancellation is processed Customer Relations likely has fewer options like booking an alternative date at the same price than they would with an active reservation still open.


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes... but sometimes it is easier to just call back. Especially with Exec Plus status... an 8 segment trip... and still a few months away... there should be many opportunities for a justified routing change; especially when one segment has been downgraded from top sleeper accommodation bedroom to coach seat on an overnight segment.


The biggest problem is that the "Options" are either LD Trains where the Sleepers are "Sold OUT", or 3 times a Week Trains that means you are stranded for 2 days awaiting Connections!

This is especially True with the LD Trains that originate inExpense! which is the only place you can connect going East or West, unless you want to have layovers in New Orleans or Washington or New York @ your expense!


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> The biggest problem is that the "Options" are either LD Trains where the Sleepers are "Sold OUT", or 3 times a Week Trains that means you are stranded for 2 days awaiting Connections!
> 
> This is especially True with the LD Trains that originate inExpense! which is the only place you can connect going East or West, unless you want to have layovers in New Orleans or Washington or New York @ your expense!


True. My reservation had already been revised when my 10/2 trip on the Meteor (with connection to LSL on 10/3) was canceled since the Meteor is not scheduled to return until 10/3. Since I had to switch to the Star, I had to go a day earlier since the Star does not connect with the LSL. Thus, I had to spend the night in NYC for about $300 (or the equivalent in points). I was willing to do that, but am not willing to travel 2 nights in coach. Changing the dates would not work since I was planning to attend the Gathering arriving in SAN on 10/6. My points have been restored and am thinking about a short trip to NYC (maybe with my sister).


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> The biggest problem is that the "Options" are either LD Trains where the Sleepers are "Sold OUT", or 3 times a Week Trains that means you are stranded for 2 days awaiting Connections!
> 
> This is especially True with the LD Trains that originate inExpense! which is the only place you can connect going East or West, unless you want to have layovers in New Orleans or Washington or New York @ your expense!


It would be easier to trouble shoot if the exact itinerary was known. I remember an itinerary going through CHI to the EB, then the Cascades back to EUG. Since the EB got cancelled at the last minute, was able to get the SWC to LA then CS to EUG and since the H room was not available, they put me in a bedroom... so depending on the itinerary and some flexibility with timing, other options can materialize.


----------



## jiml

pennyk said:


> I was thinking the same thing since a friend who paid with cash for a roomette in the same car has not received an email and his room is still visible on his reservation. I made the reservation 11 months in advance and have Select Executive status and will be very disappointed if I was singled out.


That's not an unprecedented approach for some airlines or hotel chains. Those who book with miles or points are likely to receive less consideration than those who pay cash. Only time will tell if your friend is also bumped and the car has actually been removed.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

pennyk said:


> True. My reservation had already been revised when my 10/2 trip on the Meteor (with connection to LSL on 10/3) was canceled since the Meteor is not scheduled to return until 10/3. Since I had to switch to the Star, I had to go a day earlier since the Star does not connect with the LSL. Thus, I had to spend the night in NYC for about $300 (or the equivalent in points). I was willing to do that, but am not willing to travel 2 nights in coach. Changing the dates would not work since I was planning to attend the Gathering arriving in SAN on 10/6. My points have been restored and am thinking about a short trip to NYC (maybe with my sister).


You could have connected with the CL in WAS? Sleepers all the way through although maybe not your choice of trains. And with the downgrade to coach on one of the segments you may have had leverage to get this itinerary at no added cost. True you would have arrived on the 7th... but sleepers all the way through. But would have required some flexibility.


----------



## joelkfla

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes... but sometimes it is easier to just call back. Especially with Exec Plus status... an 8 segment trip... and still a few months away.


Actually, just 6 weeks.


----------



## wrowland

20th Century Rider said:


> I'm trying to get through now regarding my sleeper reservations... on hold over an hour... no doubt because so many are trying to get through as well... due to cancellations and / changes.
> 
> Law of diminishing returns...


Took me about 2.5 hrs to redo our entire trip over the phone. The agent that helped us was named Isabelle and she was very nice!


----------



## CTBob

I don't know if this is any help or even pertinent, but I watched the 5 go through Truckee CA on a webcam a bit earlier today, and the consist appears to be the standard one. The train was about five hours late.

148 engine
74 engine
Baggage car
Transdorm (I think; looks very similar to a sleeper)
Sleeper
Sleeper
Dining Car
Sightseeing Lounge/Cafe
Coach
Coach

I'm taking the 5 from DEN to EMY this Saturday so I hope they have the same consist (we're in the 531 sleeper) and all the track issues have been repaired.


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## 20th Century Rider

So many times I have been so frustrated... yet leave myself open for options when itinerary problems pop up or close up... knowing that necessitated changes won't always be my first preference. But if there is a breakdown and/or a fail, one must look for what options are available and then politely ask for alternatives and enough compensation to bring one up to a level of satisfaction.

Whoah's me... when I travel on Amtrak I travel with an open mind and schedule the trip with flexibility attitude. It's the journey that's the destination cause I know the realities of Amtrak.

Personal understanding is that today LD and medium haul has become more of a destination in itself than an efficient travel venue... with the big big exception being the NEC and CALI corridors!

So this is my IMHO!


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## wrowland

Definitely about the journey!


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> I have a friend who is in a roomette in the same car, same day and he has not received the "email." Maybe only bedroom passengers were bumped or Amtrak has not gotten around to downgrading all passengers. Maybe bedrooms first. I made that reservation 11 months in advance.


I spoke to one friend who is in a roomette in the 330 car. He phoned Amtrak and the agent put him on hold for a while to check into the status of his reservation. He was told that his reservation in a roomette is fine and has not been cancelled.. He was further informed that only the passengers in bedrooms in that car were downgraded. Sure does not sound equitable to me. The passengers who paid the most for their reservations are getting downgraded.


----------



## PaTrainFan

pennyk said:


> I spoke to one friend who is in a roomette in the 330 car. He phoned Amtrak and the agent put him on hold for a while to check into the status of his reservation. He was told that his reservation in a roomette is fine and has not been cancelled.. He was further informed that only the passengers in bedrooms in that car were downgraded. Sure does not sound equitable to me. The passengers who paid the most for their reservations are getting downgraded.


 Same car, same trip? Why bedrooms and not roomettes? If his reservation is "fine," does that mean they have not switched him from the car? I don't understand what's happening.


----------



## jis

I booked my Roomette in the 330 car using points and so far it seems to be fine. In any case I am not going to worry about it while in India. When I get back in two weeks if necessary I will cancel it and get an air ticket using different set of points.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

pennyk said:


> I spoke to one friend who is in a roomette in the 330 car. He phoned Amtrak and the agent put him on hold for a while to check into the status of his reservation. He was told that his reservation in a roomette is fine and has not been cancelled.. He was further informed that only the passengers in bedrooms in that car were downgraded. Sure does not sound equitable to me. The passengers who paid the most for their reservations are getting downgraded.


That certainly doesn't sound fair, equitable, or right. I just spoke to an agent regarding your general situation [of course without any mention of AU or you or any person in particular... but for sure I have been in a similar dilemma myself. If willing to take a different routing with minor date change can complete such a trip... perhaps with appropriate compensation and/or some kind of inconvenience voucher. Sorry we can't connect better... but I've come out ahead in similar dilemmas every single time over the last few decades.

While you have every right to be angry, you can take steps to bring back your trip to the gathering with compensation... and ultimately come out ahead. Can't blame you for your frustration and wish you well.


----------



## zephyr17

Something is fishy here. My suspicion is they are running a transdorm as the 30 and cut the standard sleeper. That would explain only bedroom pax getting cut. Do those of you in roomettes have the same room numbers?


----------



## wrowland

pennyk said:


> I spoke to one friend who is in a roomette in the 330 car. He phoned Amtrak and the agent put him on hold for a while to check into the status of his reservation. He was told that his reservation in a roomette is fine and has not been cancelled.. He was further informed that only the passengers in bedrooms in that car were downgraded. Sure does not sound equitable to me. The passengers who paid the most for their reservations are getting downgraded.


Insanity!


----------



## amtrakp42

UserNameRequired said:


> Noting for information purposes, we were booked in car 532 for 08-29-22. On 08-06-22, they moved us to car 540 trans dorm. So, either the 532 got removed for the 08-29-22 run, or, they started canceling people for 09-01-22 run and people were madly rebooking back into August on the 6th and that’s how we got bumped. We are only going one state over on train 5.
> 
> i originally wanted coach for that leg, but booked roomette only because of mask requirements. After the mask requirements ended, the thought was well, may as well just stay in roomette for the traditional dining experience.


I am not sure how anyone could rebook into sleepers back into Aug as most all days thru Sept sleepers are sold out when I check? Actually several days are completely sold out coach and sleepers.


----------



## amtrakp42

zephyr17 said:


> Something is fishy here. My suspicion is they are running a transdorm as the 30 and cut the standard sleeper. That would explain only bedroom pax getting cut. Do those of you in roomettes have the same room numbers?


Usually the transdorm is a 40 car, at least when I have rode Zephry. Last year they bumped me in the 30 car, but did get in the 31 car. Sometimes I will call and request a room in the dorm car, but usually the agent will have get their supervisor as it is only used for overflow and supervisor has to override it. If you want to be on a certain side of the train you can do this as the dorm car will only run one direction as the front has the steps down to the baggage car in front of it. Even number roomettes are on one side and odd numbered across the hall altho I've forgotten which is on the left and right.


----------



## pennyk

zephyr17 said:


> Something is fishy here. My suspicion is they are running a transdorm as the 30 and cut the standard sleeper. That would explain only bedroom pax getting cut. Do those of you in roomettes have the same room numbers?


apparently at least one of them has the same room number. The agent to whom I spoke said car 330 was removed. The agent to whom my friend spoke (after speaking to a supervisor) after 6 hours after my conversation informed my friend the 330 was not removed and his reservation for his roomette in that car with the same room number was still valid.


----------



## zephyr17

amtrakp42 said:


> Usually the transdorm is a 40 car, at least when I have rode Zephry. Last year they bumped me in the 30 car, but did get in the 31 car. Sometimes I will call and request a room in the dorm car, but usually the agent will have get their supervisor as it is only used for overflow and supervisor has to override it. If you want to be on a certain side of the train you can do this as the dorm car will only run one direction as the front has the steps down to the baggage car in front of it. Even number roomettes are on one side and odd numbered across the hall altho I've forgotten which is on the left and right.


Yeah, I am well aware the transdorm ordinarily runs as the 40 car line on the SW Chief. However, running a transdorm under the 30 car line is about the only equipment-based explanation for people in bedrooms getting booted out if their rooms "because the sleeper was cut" while those in roomettes in the 30 car line on the same departure retain their accommodations.

The only other plausible explanation to me is Amtrak has decided to reallocate the space for some higher status individual.

I do not find it plausible that Amtrak knows what precisely what car will be serving as 330 many weeks in advance and that the bedroom is bad ordered and will remain so.

Finally, while the transdorm running in the 40 car line is the most common, it is not universal. The transdorm on the Builder is the 32 car line.


----------



## glensfallsse

Has Amtrak put out any kind of statement about this? Over the long haul, this must be affecting hundreds of passengers.


----------



## zephyr17

glensfallsse said:


> Has Amtrak put out any kind of statement about this? Over the long haul, this must be affecting hundreds of passengers.


No, it's all been pretty quiet. RPA is now trying to gather information through surveys to be able to call them out on it.

Hoping they gather enough information get the House and Senate Transportation Committes to crucify Gardner in hearings.


----------



## willieweed

I am booked on the CZ in car 640, room 20 {initial booking was car 632) from Sacramento to Galesburg on Sept. 23. Is that car an old one?


----------



## glensfallsse

There ought to be accountability here. Too many people being affected. If there’s an explanation, let’s have it.


----------



## jis

willieweed said:


> I am booked on the CZ in car 640, room 20 {initial booking was car 632) from Sacramento to Galesburg on Sept. 23. Is that car an old one?


Car 640 is the Trans-Dorm.


----------



## willieweed

My trip is planned as a roundtrip on the CS from Olympia to Sacramento, CZ to Galesburg, SWC to LAX and back to Olympia with no overnights.
I'm familiar with car numbers on the CS but need feedback on CZ 640 and SWC330.


----------



## zephyr17

glensfallsse said:


> There ought to be accountability here. Too many people being affected. If there’s an explanation, let’s have it.


RPA is starting to try, trying to survey those affected to gather quantitative data.

Hopefully enough to to screw Coscia and Gardner under before Congress...


----------



## Eric in East County

zephyr17 said:


> RPA is starting to try, trying to survey those affected to gather quantitative data.
> 
> Hopefully enough to to screw Coscia and Gardner under before Congress...


One way to make the punishment fit the crime (and provide the rest of us with a source of innocent merriment) would be to force those responsible for this fiasco to take a long-distance train trip, traveling both ways in coach .


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Regarding sleeper cancellations









U.S., Amtrak: A dismal summer of train and sleeping car cancellations; Stephen Gardner and his executives received more than $2 million in ‘performance bonuses’


The southbound Coast Starlight at Oakland, California in 2018. Note the popular Hi-Level Pacific Parlour Car is still in the consist for sleeping car passengers. Wikimedia Commons photo. By Andrew …




corridorrail.com


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Regarding sleeper cancellations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S., Amtrak: A dismal summer of train and sleeping car cancellations; Stephen Gardner and his executives received more than $2 million in ‘performance bonuses’
> 
> 
> The southbound Coast Starlight at Oakland, California in 2018. Note the popular Hi-Level Pacific Parlour Car is still in the consist for sleeping car passengers. Wikimedia Commons photo. By Andrew …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> corridorrail.com


Perfect! Excellent! Outstanding! Hits that nail right on its head!

The account is a 'right on' reflection of all the frustration expressed on AU re downgrades from sleeper to coach with no warnings or little opportunities... while the top brass were in absolute bliss with huge pay bonuses!

But also extending sympathetic appreciation to all the front line workers and res agents who were so adversely affected with huge work loads to handle endless problems... and with comparatively low pay.

Sure hope Congress is listening and ready to infuse more appropriated funding... as well as make working conditions and pay attractive enough to bring in Amtrak employees motivated towards a higher level of customer service.


----------



## jis

20th Century Rider said:


> Perfect! Excellent! Outstanding! Hits that nail right on its head!
> 
> The account is a 'right on' reflection of all the frustration expressed on AU re downgrades from sleeper to coach with no warnings or little opportunities... while the top brass were in absolute bliss with huge pay bonuses!
> 
> But also extending sympathetic appreciation to all the front line workers and res agents who were so adversely affected with huge work loads to handle endless problems... and with comparatively low pay.
> 
> Sure hope Congress is listening and ready to infuse more appropriated funding... as well as make working conditions and pay attractive enough to bring in Amtrak employees motivated towards a higher level of customer service.


I don’t think Congress should provide any more funding without insisting on the replacement of the entire Board and the executive suite. The problem at present is not lack of funding. It is lack of competent management. They have the incredible inverse Midas touch. All that they touch turns into stinky mud.


----------



## tricia

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Regarding sleeper cancellations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S., Amtrak: A dismal summer of train and sleeping car cancellations; Stephen Gardner and his executives received more than $2 million in ‘performance bonuses’
> 
> 
> The southbound Coast Starlight at Oakland, California in 2018. Note the popular Hi-Level Pacific Parlour Car is still in the consist for sleeping car passengers. Wikimedia Commons photo. By Andrew …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> corridorrail.com



One specific bit of info from this article:



> While all this was happening, aerial reconnaissance at the Beech Grove shops outside Indianapolis, Indiana revealed scores of Superliners and other nominally roadworthy single level cars, and many locomotives, sitting in the weeds gathering dust rather than revenue.


----------



## wrowland

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Regarding sleeper cancellations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S., Amtrak: A dismal summer of train and sleeping car cancellations; Stephen Gardner and his executives received more than $2 million in ‘performance bonuses’
> 
> 
> The southbound Coast Starlight at Oakland, California in 2018. Note the popular Hi-Level Pacific Parlour Car is still in the consist for sleeping car passengers. Wikimedia Commons photo. By Andrew …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> corridorrail.com


Scared to death I am about fall travel as we have a family trip booked on the SWC, EB and CS that was booked due to our sleeper being removed on the CZ. I am so hoping they do not change the dates of service; with our luck so far the day we are scheduled for will the day dropped!


----------



## wrowland

tricia said:


> One specific bit of info from this article:


I am right near Beech Grove; need to go help them fix my sleeper car so we can get back on the CZ!


----------



## wrowland

willieweed said:


> My trip is planned as a roundtrip on the CS from Olympia to Sacramento, CZ to Galesburg, SWC to LAX and back to Olympia with no overnights.
> I'm familiar with car numbers on the CS but need feedback on CZ 640 and SWC330.


I am no pro but the 640 car sounds like a transdorm sleeper where crew and passengers share the top level and bottom is generally reserved for crew (noted by the use of "40" in the car #). The 330 on the SWC is the base consist sleeper car, most likely won't see that disappear unless they sub in a transdorm sleeper and boot bedroom folks. Most likely won't happen but seems to have been observed recently in this thread.


----------



## zephyr17

willieweed said:


> I am booked on the CZ in car 640, room 20 {initial booking was car 632) from Sacramento to Galesburg on Sept. 23. Is that car an old one?


It is a transdorm and all transdorms are Superliner IIs. Most Superliner IIs are unrefurbished and, while newer, appear much older and more worn than the Superliner Is which have all been refurbished.


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## PaTrainFan

Amtrak's handling of all this is abysmal, especially its communications. If Gardner would come out and say, "We're sorry for the inconvenience, but we're taking these cars out of service temporarily for routine maintenance and upgrades," most would be kinder in reaction. But I suspect that's not what they are doing. However, to put it into context, I just saw a media report this morning that said according to Flight Aware, airlines cancelled 120,000 flights between January and July this year.


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## UserNameRequired

amtrakp42 said:


> I am not sure how anyone could rebook into sleepers back into Aug as most all days thru Sept sleepers are sold out when I check? Actually several days are completely sold out coach and sleepers.


I hadn't been checking sold out or not for CZ around the 29th on or before the 6th so I don't know what it looked like at that time. Just trying to do my part and add a log to the speculation fire


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## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> Amtrak's handling of all this is abysmal, especially its communications. If Gardner would come out and say, "We're sorry for the inconvenience, but we're taking these cars out of service temporarily for routine maintenance and upgrades," most would be kinder in reaction. But I suspect that's not what they are doing. However, to put it into context, I just saw a media report this morning that said according to Flight Aware, airlines cancelled 120,000 flights between January and July this year.


So now we know what's so apparent about current Amtrak management style... 

They leave all to speculate and wonder... as in... 'Shhhhhhhsh - It's a secret.'

But what's not so secret... management incompetence.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> I don’t think Congress should provide any more funding without insisting on the replacement of the entire Board and the executive suite. The problem at present is not lack of funding. It is lack of competent management. They have the incredible inverse Midas touch. All that they touch turns into stinky mud.


That certainly goes without saying.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Eric in East County said:


> One way to make the punishment fit the crime (and provide the rest of us with a source of innocent merriment) would be to force those responsible for this fiasco to take a long-distance train trip, traveling both ways in coach .


And have the Cafe be " Out" of most items!


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## MARC Rider

Eric in East County said:


> One way to make the punishment fit the crime (and provide the rest of us with a source of innocent merriment) would be to force those responsible for this fiasco to take a long-distance train trip, traveling both ways in coach .


But if they travel in coach, their reservation won't be cancelled!


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## MARC Rider

Once when I rode the Silver Meteor, one of the sleepers (fortunately for me, not mine) was bad-ordered somewhere before our station (Orlando) and the sleeper passengers in that car were downgraded to coach. I talked to someone who was downgraded, and she said that they not only fully refunded the sleeper charge, they gave them the meals they were entitled to as sleeper passengers. This was back in the days when the Meteor had traditional dining and coach passengers could eat in the diner at additional charge. These downgraded passengers apparently didn't have to pay for their meals.

Are the people who are currently being downgraded to coach from sleeper still being offered their sleeper meals? (Of course, for those traveling on the trains with flex dining, that might not be such an advantage.)


----------



## trimetbusfan

MARC Rider said:


> Once when I rode the Silver Meteor, one of the sleepers (fortunately for me, not mine) was bad-ordered somewhere before our station (Orlando) and the sleeper passengers in that car were downgraded to coach. I talked to someone who was downgraded, and she said that they not only fully refunded the sleeper charge, they gave them the meals they were entitled to as sleeper passengers. This was back in the days when the Meteor had traditional dining and coach passengers could eat in the diner at additional charge. These downgraded passengers apparently didn't have to pay for their meals.
> 
> Are the people who are currently being downgraded to coach from sleeper still being offered their sleeper meals? (Of course, for those traveling on the trains with flex dining, that might not be such an advantage.)


No, they do not offer meal vouchers in the dining car anymore since they closed it off to sleeper pax only.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Also have yet to hear anyone take up Amtrak coach seat offer yet. The general statement is there canceling there trips rather trying out a coach seat for 2-3 days.


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## Eric in East County

MARC Rider said:


> But if they travel in coach, their reservation won't be cancelled!


Not necessarily. Our Southwest Chief No. 4 bedroom reservations for June 28 couldn’t even be downgraded to coach because the train was sold out!


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## Rasputin

MARC Rider said:


> Are the people who are currently being downgraded to coach from sleeper still being offered their sleeper meals? (Of course, for those traveling on the trains with flex dining, that might not be such an advantage.)


It would be a helpful gesture but what do you think under the current management regime?

As the Amtrak apologists like to point out: "They are getting their transportation aren't they? What more do they want?"


----------



## toddinde

John819 said:


> It seems that the sleeper cancellation issues are (at least for now) limited to the Superliners. That would indicate that equipment shortages, not OBS shortages, are the major issue. Remember we have deferred maintenance over the COVID period, cars out of service allegedly for refurbishment, and two major derailments where I expect legal will hold the cars out of service until all litigation is resolved.
> 
> If management were competent (note the use of the subjective) they would be working with Siemens now on a new sleeping car to put into the production pipeline.


Supposedly, they are. Amtrak claims they’ll put an order out in 2024. But before that, putting the cars in the deadline at Beach Grove back in service, and doing a comprehensive mechanical rebuild on all Superliners is essential. Amtrak could also order Viewliners which isn’t a bad idea. They’re nice cars.


----------



## jcmascarenas

MARC Rider said:


> Once when I rode the Silver Meteor, one of the sleepers (fortunately for me, not mine) was bad-ordered somewhere before our station (Orlando) and the sleeper passengers in that car were downgraded to coach. I talked to someone who was downgraded, and she said that they not only fully refunded the sleeper charge, they gave them the meals they were entitled to as sleeper passengers. This was back in the days when the Meteor had traditional dining and coach passengers could eat in the diner at additional charge. These downgraded passengers apparently didn't have to pay for their meals.
> 
> Are the people who are currently being downgraded to coach from sleeper still being offered their sleeper meals? (Of course, for those traveling on the trains with flex dining, that might not be such an advantage.)


I was just downgraded for my 9/18 from CHI-EMY. The first agent I spoke to was utterly useless and rude ( 'too bad, so sad' kind of attitude). Upon receiving a second email about downgrade, I called again because I was worried our second bedroom had been bumped also. Second agent was extremely helpful, ensured the fare difference refund was processed, and more importantly assured me that we would still be provided the meals that our original booking had entitled us to and that if we had any issues with that on board to call them. My plan is to print out all documents to take along, i.e. original ticket (yes, we were booked in two bedrooms!), downgrade email notice, and new ticket. Hoping there's no issues....


----------



## jcmascarenas

trimetbusfan said:


> No, they do not offer meal vouchers in the dining car anymore since they closed it off to sleeper pax only.


This is not what an Amtrak agent told me when I called in reference to my recent downgrade. She assured me that we would still be entitled to meals and if we had any problems on board to call them. We'll see.....


----------



## trimetbusfan

jcmascarenas said:


> This is not what an Amtrak agent told me when I called in reference to my recent downgrade. She assured me that we would still be entitled to meals and if we had any problems on board to call them. We'll see.....


Well that’s promising. I hope it works out for you.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jcmascarenas said:


> I was just downgraded for my 9/18 from CHI-EMY. The first agent I spoke to was utterly useless and rude ( 'too bad, so sad' kind of attitude). Upon receiving a second email about downgrade, I called again because I was worried our second bedroom had been bumped also. Second agent was extremely helpful, ensured the fare difference refund was processed, and more importantly assured me that we would still be provided the meals that our original booking had entitled us to and that if we had any issues with that on board to call them. My plan is to print out all documents to take along, i.e. original ticket (yes, we were booked in two bedrooms!), downgrade email notice, and new ticket. Hoping there's no issues....


Be sure to request a large inconvenience transportation credit voucher for such a horrific downgrade. This usually cannot be done until the trip has been completed. Also you did the right thing to call back and get another agent who was apparently much more understanding. You are entitled to sizable compensation.


----------



## thully

jcmascarenas said:


> I was just downgraded for my 9/18 from CHI-EMY. The first agent I spoke to was utterly useless and rude ( 'too bad, so sad' kind of attitude). Upon receiving a second email about downgrade, I called again because I was worried our second bedroom had been bumped also. Second agent was extremely helpful, ensured the fare difference refund was processed, and more importantly assured me that we would still be provided the meals that our original booking had entitled us to and that if we had any issues with that on board to call them. My plan is to print out all documents to take along, i.e. original ticket (yes, we were booked in two bedrooms!), downgrade email notice, and new ticket. Hoping there's no issues....


Did you have two people booked in two bedrooms and were switched to a single bedroom? That would explain why you still get meals - two people in a single bedroom are both entitled to meals.


----------



## Trucker72

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Also have yet to hear anyone take up Amtrak coach seat offer yet. The general statement is there canceling there trips rather trying out a coach seat for 2-3 days.


I took them up on it. We had to. We are going from Portland, Maine to Boston to NYC to Chicago to Denever to Emeryville to LA to San Diego to LA to Flagstaff to Chicago to Washington to Boston to Portland.
The Denver to Emeryville is the downgraded leg. They have not downgraded the Chicago to Denver leg, yet!


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## jcmascarenas

thully said:


> Did you have two people booked in two bedrooms and were switched to a single bedroom? That would explain why you still get meals - two people in a single bedroom are both entitled to meals.


No, we had 4 people booked in 2 bedrooms. My in-laws arriving from the UK will stay in the bedroom and hubby and I will be riding coach. Cancellation was an option, but the trip was for the folks benefit, so since they still have a bedroom, we'll press on as planned.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jcmascarenas said:


> No, we had 4 people booked in 2 bedrooms. My in-laws arriving from the UK will stay in the bedroom and hubby and I will be riding coach. Cancellation was an option, but the trip was for the folks benefit, so since they still have a bedroom, we'll press on as planned.


Do board with as much documentation as possible... check in with the station staff, and do connect with the conductor as soon as you board... with docs in hand. Most importantly be flexible and know if anything doesn't line up as it should... but if you have been promised meals u should be ok. If not ok when you board... purchase from cafe and save receipts.

1 you will again call upon getting off the train
2 be prepared to purchase your own meals with receipts to show customer relations.
3 customer relations does understand that there is a disconnect ... which will add to your compensation at arrival

It is my personal experience that all of this does become rectified until after the trip is concluded... so don't let intermittent snafu's interfere with as much enjoyment as you can get from the trip.

Just enjoy your trip and focus on the trip itself for the joy of rail travel


----------



## jcmascarenas

20th Century Rider said:


> Do board with as much documentation as possible... check in with the station staff, and do connect with the conductor as soon as you board... with docs in hand. Most importantly be flexible and know if anything doesn't line up as it should... but if you have been promised meals u should be ok. If not ok when you board... purchase from cafe and save receipts.
> 
> 1 you will again call upon getting off the train
> 2 be prepared to purchase your own meals with receipts to show customer relations.
> 3 customer relations does understand that there is a disconnect ... which will add to your compensation at arrival
> 
> It is my personal experience that all of this does become rectified until after the trip is concluded... so don't let intermittent snafu's interfere with as much enjoyment as you can get from the trip.
> 
> Just enjoy your trip and focus on the trip itself for the joy of rail travel


Great guidance, thank you! I plan to enjoy the trip no matter what. I'm glad I found this site because I had no idea about the compensation options. I'll be sure to speak to customer relations after arriving in EMY.


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## pennyk

jcmascarenas said:


> Great guidance, thank you! I plan to enjoy the trip no matter what. I'm glad I found this site because I had no idea about the compensation options. I'll be sure to speak to customer relations after arriving in EMY.


Please note that Customer Relations does not always provide compensation in addition to refunding your fare for a downgraded reservation. I would not count on additional compensation.


----------



## amtrakp42

wrowland said:


> I am no pro but the 640 car sounds like a transdorm sleeper where crew and passengers share the top level and bottom is generally reserved for crew (noted by the use of "40" in the car #). The 330 on the SWC is the base consist sleeper car, most likely won't see that disappear unless they sub in a transdorm sleeper and boot bedroom folks. Most likely won't happen but seems to have been observed recently in this thread.


They probably wouldn't sub a dorm car if one already on as it would have to be the rear car as the front door has stops that goes to the single level baggage car?


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## railiner

Rasputin said:


> In 1968, the PRR mysteriously "lost" my sleeping car reservation for the Broadway.


Just a minor correction…In 1968, it was now the Penn Central that operated The Broadway Limited…


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## Rasputin

railiner said:


> Just aCentr minor correction…In 1968, it was now the Penn Central that operated The Broadway Limited…


No, That is not correct. My trip was in January 1968. The Penn Central merger took place if I recall correctly on January 31, 1968. It was PRR which "lost" my reservation.


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## railiner

Rasputin said:


> No, That is not correct. My trip was in January 1968. The Penn Central merger took place if I recall correctly on January 31, 1968. It was PRR which "lost" my reservation.


Okay, I agree…sorry for the confusion.


----------



## zephyr17

amtrakp42 said:


> They probably wouldn't sub a dorm car if one already on as it would have to be the rear car as the front door has stops that goes to the single level baggage car?


My thinking was they dropped to a single sleeper, a transdorm, but run it as the 30 car line rather than the 40 car line usual for transdorm, perhaps only on a single consist. I am well aware of the physical attributes of transdorms.

It is a stretch, but I am reaching for an explanation of why bedroom passengers would be booted but not roomette passengers. There are not a lot of plausible ones, but that is one.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The lack of transdorm in the fleet would put a dent in your theory.


----------



## zephyr17

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The lack of transdorm in the fleet would put a dent in your theory.


They used one as a baggage car on the Portland Builder in the spring, lack of serviceable transdorms notwithstanding,so anything is possible.

There are very, very few plausible explanations for booting out bedroom passengers due to "the sleeper was cut" and leaving the roomette passengers. Cutting the standard sleeper and running the transdorm (which the SW Chief already has) under the 30 car line is one if the few that at least partly fits the facts as presented. The fact that doesn't fit is the roomette pax on that car didn't get their rooms reassigned.


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## joelkfla

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The lack of transdorm in the fleet would put a dent in your theory.


On Track On Line - Amtrak Passenger Equipment Roster - Rolling Stock says there are 40 TransDorms available. Seems like a lot. Are all of those assigned to trainsets?


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## pennyk

pennyk said:


> I was told by the agent that my sleeper was removed and the only space on the train is in coach. Yes, I will miss the Gathering.
> 
> Edit to add that I looked at the website for that date 10/4 and sleepers are sold out and coach is 80% full.


After numerous phone calls, I think I found out what really happened in my downgrade from bedroom to coach on car 330. I called AGR again this morning, hoping to make a new reservation (to NYC for a couple of days). After my reservation was made, I explained to her what happened with my downgrade. The first note the agent read on the reservation was that Amtrak phoned and left a voice mail. That was not true. The agent then spoke to her supervisor and then her supervisor spoke to someone else.

It appears that a car, other than 330, was removed and the bedroom passengers in that car were moved to the 330 car based on when their reservation was made. I got dumped, and my reservation was made 11 months in advance - so that did not seem correct. The only thing I can think of is that my reservation had been modified not too long ago when Amtrak changed the start date for the Meteor to 10/3 (instead of September as originally planned). My reservation included travel on the Meteor on 10/2, which was not running, so that part of the reservation was canceled and I had to modify the reservation to travel on the Star on 10/1 (a day earlier because the Star does not connect with the LSL same day) causing me to spend a night in NYC at my expense. The only thing I could think of was that the modification changed the reservation date in the system and instead of having the first reservation (car 330 room E), I was considered to have a much later reservation.

At least I think I know what happend. I am disappointed that it happened and pretty ticked that 2 agents either lied to me or provided me inaccurate information (including a customer relations agent who was condescending and rude. She even assured me that my friends in roomettes in car 330 would be downgraded).


----------



## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> On Track On Line - Amtrak Passenger Equipment Roster - Rolling Stock says there are 40 TransDorms available. Seems like a lot. Are all of those assigned to trainsets?


OTOL says 40 are active. It really only tracks wrecked and retired cars, not cars unservicable due to lack of inspection and maintenance since COVID. Many cars of all types that are "active" are not servicable due to neglect. Transdorms are not exempt. I doubt anywhere near 40 of those "active" cars are actually available.


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## zephyr17

pennyk said:


> After numerous phone calls, I think I found out what really happened in my downgrade from bedroom to coach on car 330. I called AGR again this morning, hoping to make a new reservation (to NYC for a couple of days). After my resesrvation was made, I explained to her what happened with my downgrade. The first note the agent read on the reservation was that Amtrak phoned and left a voice mail. That was not true. The agent then spoke to her supervisor and then her supervisor spoke to someone else.
> 
> It appears that a car, other than 330, was removed and the bedroom passengers in that car were moved to the 330 car based on when their reservation was made. I got dumped, and my reservation was made 11 months in advance - so that did not seem correct. The only thing I can think of is that my reservation had been modified not too long ago when Amtrak changed the start date for the Meteor to 10/3 (instead of September as originally planned). My reservation included travel on the Meteor on 10/2, which was not running, so that part of the reservation was canceled and I had to modify the reservation to travel on the Star on 10/1 (a day earlier because the Star does not connect with the LSL same day) causing me to spend a night in NYC at my expense. The only thing I could think of was that the modification changed the reservation date in the system and instead of having the first reservation (car 330 room E), I was considered to have a much later reservation.
> 
> At least I think I know what happend. I am disappointed that it happened and pretty ticked that 2 agents either lied to me or provided me inaccurate information (including a customer relations agent who was condescending and rude. She even assured me that my friends in roomettes in car 330 would be downgraded).


Hmm, that means they changed their methodology of just hitting those in the cut car.

Sorry that happened to you.


----------



## joelkfla

pennyk said:


> After numerous phone calls, I think I found out what really happened in my downgrade from bedroom to coach on car 330. I called AGR again this morning, hoping to make a new reservation (to NYC for a couple of days). After my resesrvation was made, I explained to her what happened with my downgrade. The first note the agent read on the reservation was that Amtrak phoned and left a voice mail. That was not true. The agent then spoke to her supervisor and then her supervisor spoke to someone else.
> 
> It appears that a car, other than 330, was removed and the bedroom passengers in that car were moved to the 330 car based on when their reservation was made. I got dumped, and my reservation was made 11 months in advance - so that did not seem correct. The only thing I can think of is that my reservation had been modified not too long ago when Amtrak changed the start date for the Meteor to 10/3 (instead of September as originally planned). My reservation included travel on the Meteor on 10/2, which was not running, so that part of the reservation was canceled and I had to modify the reservation to travel on the Star on 10/1 (a day earlier because the Star does not connect with the LSL same day) causing me to spend a night in NYC at my expense. The only thing I could think of was that the modification changed the reservation date in the system and instead of having the first reservation (car 330 room E), I was considered to have a much later reservation.
> 
> At least I think I know what happend. I am disappointed that it happened and pretty ticked that 2 agents either lied to me or provided me inaccurate information (including a customer relations agent who was condescending and rude. She even assured me that my friends in roomettes in car 330 would be downgraded).


They might still be lying. Maybe the passenger who bumped you wasn't just someone who booked earlier, but rather someone with a lot of pull -- like a congressman, or a big donor to a congressman.

Seems very strange that all other reports have been that people in the dropped cars were downgraded, not those with the most recent bookings.


----------



## Rasputin

pennyk said:


> After numerous phone calls, I think I found out what really happened in my downgrade from bedroom to coach on car 330.


At this point, I don't think I would believe anything that Amtrak says. The company lacks credibility.


----------



## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> They might still be lying. Maybe the passenger who bumped you wasn't just someone who booked earlier, but rather someone with a lot of pull -- like a congressman, or a big donor to a congressman.


I'd say Amtrak executive, but we all know Amtrak executives don't ride long distance trains...


----------



## coalman

river said:


> Downgrading your highly anticipated trip reservation from sleeper to coach is way worse than no flex meals being boarded. You have my sympathy.


We are charged a fee for changes/cancelation of our reservations. Amtrak should pay us a change/downgrade fee in points for changes they make. It would help soothe the inconvenience/disruption of plans.


----------



## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> After numerous phone calls, I think I found out what really happened in my downgrade from bedroom to coach on car 330. I called AGR again this morning, hoping to make a new reservation (to NYC for a couple of days). After my reservation was made, I explained to her what happened with my downgrade. The first note the agent read on the reservation was that Amtrak phoned and left a voice mail. That was not true. The agent then spoke to her supervisor and then her supervisor spoke to someone else.
> 
> It appears that a car, other than 330, was removed and the bedroom passengers in that car were moved to the 330 car based on when their reservation was made. I got dumped, and my reservation was made 11 months in advance - so that did not seem correct. The only thing I can think of is that my reservation had been modified not too long ago when Amtrak changed the start date for the Meteor to 10/3 (instead of September as originally planned). My reservation included travel on the Meteor on 10/2, which was not running, so that part of the reservation was canceled and I had to modify the reservation to travel on the Star on 10/1 (a day earlier because the Star does not connect with the LSL same day) causing me to spend a night in NYC at my expense. The only thing I could think of was that the modification changed the reservation date in the system and instead of having the first reservation (car 330 room E), I was considered to have a much later reservation.
> 
> At least I think I know what happend. I am disappointed that it happened and pretty ticked that 2 agents either lied to me or provided me inaccurate information (including a customer relations agent who was condescending and rude. She even assured me that my friends in roomettes in car 330 would be downgraded).


More proof that Amtraks Management is dysfunctional in ALL Areas of the Company.

Lying to Customers seems to have become SOP @ lots of Companies, so Sad it's reached Amtrak!

Someone has to make decisions like this, even if a Computer did the dirty deed!

Have you decided yet if you're going to make the Get-a-Way trip to NYC!( as you know, October is a Great time to be in the Apple!)

Well miss you @ the Gathering IF we too don't get Bumped!


----------



## jsp

zephyr17 said:


> My thinking was they dropped to a single sleeper, a transdorm, but run it as the 30 car line rather than the 40 car line usual for transdorm, perhaps only on a single consist. I am well aware of the physical attributes of transdorms.
> 
> It is a stretch, but I am reaching for an explanation of why bedroom passengers would be booted but not roomette passengers. There are not a lot of plausible ones, but that is one.


Looks like bedrooms are available on the 5th from Flagstaff to LA, so one explanation might be that there are group/Amtrak vacation Grand Canyon bookings that got bump priority


----------



## jebr

joelkfla said:


> They might still be lying. Maybe the passenger who bumped you wasn't just someone who booked earlier, but rather someone with a lot of pull -- like a congressman, or a big donor to a congressman.
> 
> Seems very strange that all other reports have been that people in the dropped cars were downgraded, not those with the most recent bookings.



Or Amtrak has changed their process for the latest round of cuts, possibly even based on (gasp!) customer feedback. Complaints are always going to skew towards those most negatively affected, so if Amtrak was getting a lot of complaints from people who booked many months out, they may have modified their process to try and minimize impact to those customers. If so, they seem to have not done it well enough, but that seems far more plausible than a conspiracy theory that a Congressional member has enough pull to kick someone out of an Amtrak bedroom, that they want to ride Amtrak enough to do so, and that Amtrak was willing to go along with it and kicked out someone who booked quite far in advance.

As for the other agents lying, it could be partly that the agents haven't learned of the new process yet, or that they just didn't care and wanted to get to the next call as quickly as possible and so made something up that sounded plausible. Especially with Amtrak management being how it is, it wouldn't surprise me if Amtrak just never has told agents about how exactly they determine whose rooms get cut, or that they told them how it used to work but never updated them.

I truly believe that most of Amtrak's problems come from a mix of decades of underinvestment, and often relative incompetence from many higher-ups in how to run a passenger railroad, which permeates into lower-level management and ultimately into the policies that front-line workers get and have to abide by. Incompetence is far more common than malice, and when the systems aren't in place (due to underinvestment) to counteract some of the incompetence it's easy for things to go haywire fast.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Good points Jeb! And like all Government Operations, once the Culture reaches a Comfortable Level for the Execs and the Office Pogs, the Front Line Workers,who have to deal with the Public, become the Scape Goats for the Incompetence of Management!

Most of us who were career Government hands learned early in our careers to do what you could to help people, but also realized that changing things for the better was mostly tilting @ Wind Mills.

I can't see anything changing @ Amtrak until there is a total housecleaning of the Board and Top Management,, and that they are replaced by Expiierinced Executives with actual Railroad Operations experience, not Political Hacks,Airline Types and MBAs!


----------



## joelkfla

jebr said:


> Or Amtrak has changed their process for the latest round of cuts, possibly even based on (gasp!) customer feedback. Complaints are always going to skew towards those most negatively affected, so if Amtrak was getting a lot of complaints from people who booked many months out, they may have modified their process to try and minimize impact to those customers. If so, they seem to have not done it well enough, but that seems far more plausible than a conspiracy theory that a Congressional member has enough pull to kick someone out of an Amtrak bedroom, that they want to ride Amtrak enough to do so, and that Amtrak was willing to go along with it and kicked out someone who booked quite far in advance.
> 
> As for the other agents lying, it could be partly that the agents haven't learned of the new process yet, or that they just didn't care and wanted to get to the next call as quickly as possible and so made something up that sounded plausible. Especially with Amtrak management being how it is, it wouldn't surprise me if Amtrak just never has told agents about how exactly they determine whose rooms get cut, or that they told them how it used to work but never updated them.
> 
> I truly believe that most of Amtrak's problems come from a mix of decades of underinvestment, and often relative incompetence from many higher-ups in how to run a passenger railroad, which permeates into lower-level management and ultimately into the policies that front-line workers get and have to abide by. Incompetence is far more common than malice, and when the systems aren't in place (due to underinvestment) to counteract some of the incompetence it's easy for things to go haywire fast.


I would agree that the first story may have been made up to close the call quickly, or just an assumption based on what has been happening.

But I'll wait until we see more reports of people being bumped from the lowest numbered sleepers before believing that it's a change of procedure. I've worked in customer service in a large corporation in a service industry, and there were a couple of senior agents assigned to "congressional cases", where a customer got their congressperson's office to intervene on their behalf. This was back in the days of paper files, and those cases had a special red folder to identify them. It's essentially part of lobbying -- keeping congresspeople happy in case you need their support on something.


----------



## trimetbusfan

As per ‘Amtrak’s service standards’ (which is available to the public thanks to FOIA) passengers may NOT have the rights to sleeper car meals if they were downgraded before boarding.


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## Devil's Advocate

joelkfla said:


> Maybe the passenger who bumped you wasn't just someone who booked earlier, but rather someone with a lot of pull -- like a congressman, or a big donor to a congressman. Seems very strange that all other reports have been that people in the dropped cars were downgraded, not those with the most recent bookings.


This makes no sense to me. If someone with that much power wants to travel on Amtrak they can charter their own car or train. No need to bump anyone.


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## SteveSFL

I just got an email regarding discounts on points trips in September. I checked my early September Zepyhr trip and I see that the roomette I paid 24,442 point for is now only 17,xxx. But I dare not mess with the reservation lest I end up in the 632 sleeper which probably doesn’t exist!


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## Railmonkey

Fingers crossed booked on SWC on 9/27 from LA to Lamy in car 430/Room 6. I have to get to Santa Fe on that date and dread the thought of the possibility of having to do a last min. flight.

Watching the railcam in Gallup and I'm seeing either 2 sleepers or a sleeper and a trans dorm. At least for the last 2-3 weeks.


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## pennyk

Railmonkey said:


> Fingers crossed booked on SWC on 9/27 from LA to Lamy in car 430/Room 6. I have to get to Santa Fe on that date and dread the thought of the possibility of having to do a last min. flight.


Good luck. If the last information I received this morning is accurate (emphasize if), then it is likely you should be OK in a roomette in the 30 car. It appears in my downgrade situation, only bedroom passengers in the 30 car were affected.


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## Bonser

Rasputin said:


> It would be a helpful gesture but what do you think under the current management regime?
> 
> As the Amtrak apologists like to point out: "They are getting their transportation aren't they? What more do they want?"


I haven't heard anyone say that yet. I suppose it's implied in the offer.


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## PaTrainFan

This is interesting, maybe: I called AGR to check on changing my room for a late September trip to Chicago on the Capitol, which when I booked it two months ago the only available room was the H room in 2900. I tried a few other times online to see if roomettes were available and they were not. On my call today, I was able to change to a roomette and get a refund of points because rooms have opened up.

At the time I made the original reservation a month ago I suspicioned that they had dropped a sleeper on the Capitol Limited. The agent told me that now there are now several rooms available, and I am now in the 2901 car. Makes me wonder if a car was added back into the consist, converse to recent trends. Okay, I have now perhaps put myself in risk of being downgraded later, but I am one to live on the edge where Amtrak is concerned.


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## joelkfla

PaTrainFan said:


> At the time I made the original reservation a month ago I suspicioned that they had dropped a sleeper on the Capitol Limited. The agent told me that now there are now several rooms available, and I am now in the 2901 car. Makes me wonder if a car was added back into the consist, converse to recent trends. Okay, I have now perhaps put myself in risk of being downgraded later, but I am one to live on the edge where Amtrak is concerned.


Yes, they have added a sleeper! 

I have the same trip booked in the same time period in an H-Room. Before it said there were no H-Rooms left on the Cap. Ltd. after I had it booked; now there is an H-room available in both directions.

Even better, the fare on the return trip has dropped over $100! I'm waiting on the call-back from AGR to request an adjustment.


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## kurt5824

So while I've taken a couple of cross country trips, I'm new to Amtrak's cancelation issues. My roomette on the CZ September 26 was canceled and I was downgraded to coach, traveling from Emeryville to Chicago. 
I rebooked the trip to September 27th. Now I'm traveling on the SWC to Chicago in car 440, which I believe to be a transition sleeper. Should I still be worried about losing my roommate?
Thanks in advance for any advice!

Sorry! Auto-correct ! Should I be worried about losing my "roomette"!!


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## wrowland

kurt5824 said:


> So while I've taken a couple of cross country trips, I'm new to Amtrak's cancelation issues. My roomette on the CZ September 26 was canceled and I was downgraded to coach, traveling from Emeryville to Chicago.
> I rebooked the trip to September 27th. Now I'm traveling on the SWC to Chicago in car 440, which I believe to be a transition sleeper. Should I still be worried about losing my roommate?
> Thanks in advance for any advice!


440 car should be a transition dorm car; half for onboard staff (OBS) and half for paying customers. Can't imagine they would pull that car since OBS uses it. Unless of course, I am completely wrong on the car type.


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## wrowland

wrowland said:


> 440 car should be a transition dorm car; half for onboard staff (OBS) and half for paying customers. Can't imagine they would pull that car since OBS uses it. Unless of course, I am completely wrong on the car type.


Also, what is going on right now appears to be fairly unique; nothing is certain at this point!


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## kurt5824

wrowland said:


> 440 car should be a transition dorm car; half for onboard staff (OBS) and half for paying customers. Can't imagine they would pull that car since OBS uses it. Unless of course, I am completely wrong on the car type.


Thanks!


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## zetharion

Such a sad state of affairs that now for every trip you make on Amtrak you seem to now have to "cross your fingers" and pray that the trip you paid a lot for isnt totally cancelled or completely ruined with little to no communication as to why from Amtrak. Amtrak doesnt like being treated like this by the freight companies but has no issue doing it to its own customers.


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## SteveSFL

kurt5824 said:


> So while I've taken a couple of cross country trips, I'm new to Amtrak's cancelation issues. My roomette on the CZ September 26 was canceled and I was downgraded to coach


What car were you booked in on the Zephyr, 632?


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## zephyr17

wrowland said:


> 440 car should be a transition dorm car; half for onboard staff (OBS) and half for paying customers. Can't imagine they would pull that car since OBS uses it. Unless of course, I am completely wrong on the car type.


You are correct in that the 40 car line is the transdorm on the SW Chief, and transdorms generally have not been the subject of unexpected cuts. However, with that said, some trains currently are running without transdorms, the OBS crew being accommodated in standard sleepers. The Starlight is running with 3 sleepers and no transdorm this summer (the pre-COVID summer consist having been transdorm plus 3 standard sleepers). Recently, the Builder has beeing running with a mix of trandorms and standard sleepers as the 32 car line (Builder being an exception to the 40 car line=transdorm rule, 32 is the normal car line for the Builder's transdorm) , depending on which day and consist. My guess is they are not releasing the Bedrooms in 32 for sale on the standard sleeper days because I don't think they can vary the inventory by day.


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## kurt5824

SteveSFL said:


> What car were you booked in on the Zephyr, 632?


Yes I was in car 632


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## MARC Rider

zetharion said:


> Such a sad state of affairs that now for every trip you make on Amtrak you seem to now have to "cross your fingers" and pray that the trip you paid a lot for isnt totally cancelled or completely ruined with little to no communication as to why from Amtrak. Amtrak doesnt like being treated like this by the freight companies but has no issue doing it to its own customers.


Corrected:

"Such a sad state of affairs that now for every long-distance trip you make in a sleeping car on Amtrak you seem to now have to "cross your fingers" and pray that the trip you paid a lot for isnt totally cancelled or completely ruined with little to no communication as to why from Amtrak. "

I just took 2 Amtrak trips in the past month, and had no problems with cancellations. But they weren't long-distance trips in sleeping cars.

Also the complaints about cancellations seemed to be concentrated on the California Zephyr and Southwest Chief. Hmmm. Wonder why?


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## wrowland

MARC Rider said:


> Corrected:
> 
> "Such a sad state of affairs that now for every long-distance trip you make in a sleeping car on Amtrak you seem to now have to "cross your fingers" and pray that the trip you paid a lot for isnt totally cancelled or completely ruined with little to no communication as to why from Amtrak. "
> 
> I just took 2 Amtrak trips in the past month, and had no problems with cancellations. But they weren't long-distance trips in sleeping cars.
> 
> Also the complaints about cancellations seemed to be concentrated on the California Zephyr and Southwest Chief. Hmmm. Wonder why?


Educate a noob; why just those?


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## zephyr17

MARC Rider said:


> Also the complaints about cancellations seemed to be concentrated on the California Zephyr and Southwest Chief. Hmmm. Wonder why?


Because they already pulled the second sleeper off the Builder in May, and most of the complaints about it came in June and July. It remains gone. So far the Builder, SW Chief, and CZ have all been hit with with sleepers being cut with space having been sold. The only western train with multiple sleepers that hasn't been hit is the Starlight at this point. The Sunset and Eagle only have one sleeper anyway.


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## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> Because they already pulled the second sleeper off the Builder in May, and most of the complaints about it came in June and July. It remains gone. So far the Builder, SW Chief, and CZ have all been hit with with sleepers being cut with space having been sold. The only western train with multiple sleepers that hasn't been hit is the Starlight at this point. The Sunset and Eagle only have one sleeper anyway.


The Texas Eaglete( Now a pathetic Consist of 1 P-42 ,Revenue Sleeper,CCC and 2 Coaches) pre-Pandemic, had a consist of 1
P-42,Bag Car, Transdorm,1-2 Revenue Sleepers( Seasonal),CCC,Sightseer Lounge,2 Coaches, and on 421-422 Days, a Cutout Coach and Revenue Sleeper from #2 SAS-CHI.

Most days there was also a Cut Out Coach between STL and CHI on the end of the Consist.

Look what they've done to my Train Ma!


----------



## UserNameRequired

zephyr17 said:


> You are correct in that the 40 car line is the transdorm on the SW Chief, and transdorms generally have not been the subject of unexpected cuts. However, with that said, some trains currently are running without transdorms, the OBS crew being accommodated in standard sleepers. The Starlight is running with 3 sleepers and no transdorm this summer (the pre-COVID summer consist having been transdorm plus 3 standard sleepers). Recently, the Builder has beeing running with a mix of trandorms and standard sleepers as the 32 car line (Builder being an exception to the 40 car line=transdorm rule, 32 is the normal car line for the Builder's transdorm) , depending on which day and consist. My guess is they are not releasing the Bedrooms in 32 for sale on the standard sleeper days because I don't think they can vary the inventory by day.


My CZ today was like this, the 40 car was a standard sleeper instead of a real trans dorm. There was no way to get to the baggage car without going around. The end train fan window of 40 was one of the most dirtiest windows I have ever seen - almost no light came through it. There was a 32 car. They ran out of all deserts and several entrees by the time we got on, (chili potato and salad)


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## zephyr17

UserNameRequired said:


> My CZ today was like this, the 40 car was a standard sleeper instead of a real trans dorm. There was no way to get to the baggage car without going around. The end train fan window of 40 was one of the most dirtiest windows I have ever seen - almost no light came through it. There was a 32 car. They ran out of all deserts and several entrees by the time we got on, (chili potato and salad)


Hmm, so they are not just doing that on some Builder consists. My bet is it is like the Builder, with some consists having a transdorm, some not.

Was surprised you had any light at all out of that railfan forward window. A lot of the time when running without a transdorm they'll attach a cap over the diaphragm to minimize exhaust fumes seeping into the car around the door.


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## UserNameRequired

zephyr17 said:


> Hmm, so they are not just doing that on some Builder consists. My bet is it is like the Builder, with some consists having a transdorm, some not.
> 
> Was surprised you had any light at all out of that railfan forward window. A lot of the time when running without a transdorm they'll attach a cap over the diaphragm to minimize exhaust fumes seeping into the car around the door.


No cap, just some metal bars and some safety looking yellow/red? straps.


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## zephyr17

UserNameRequired said:


> No cap, just some metal bars and some safety looking yellow/red? straps.


Yeah, those bars are standard and pulled out and locked on end cars (on either end). You'd have know if there was that cap, it is black, opaque rubber/plastic and is outside the door itself (which would have had those bars up in either case)


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## TaseMeBro

I'm not as fluent in the terminology, nor the construction of the CZ consists, but if it's a useful datapoint, I just boarded car 632 of the CZ Eastbound at SLC, on 8/21 (in a roomette).

Might be worth mentioning I only bought the ticket a few hours ago. I had looked online last night, and it was showing one roomette left. By the time (still last night) I got around to booking, the roomette had disappeared and only 1 family bedroom and 1 bedroom were left. At some point this afternoon, 1 additional roomette became available (the remaining room counts didn't change)


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## pennyk

Moderator Note: Numerous posts relating to staff shortages and salary of OBS were split off to a new thread:






Amtrak OBS shortage and salary


Not sure if this belongs here or elsewhere, but this was an informative story. Edit: replaced WTOP story with Trains article which is more informative. https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/amtrak-plans-hiring-events-in-push-to-fill-job-vacancies/




www.amtraktrains.com


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## Siegmund

zephyr17 said:


> Because they already pulled the second sleeper off the Builder in May, and most of the complaints about it came in June and July. It remains gone. So far the Builder, SW Chief, and CZ have all been hit with with sleepers being cut with space having been sold. The only western train with multiple sleepers that hasn't been hit is the Starlight at this point. The Sunset and Eagle only have one sleeper anyway.



This means, if I am counting correctly, that fewer than 50 Superliner sleepers are in non-Auto-Train service, out of 119 built and about 100 still on the roster.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Siegmund said:


> This means, if I am counting correctly, that fewer than 50 Superliner sleepers are in non-Auto-Train service, out of 119 built and about 100 still on the roster.


Not fact checking, but did you count the extra sleeper on the CL? Seem a wee bit low.


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## Siegmund

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Not fact checking, but did you count the extra sleeper on the CL? Seem a wee bit low.



It may well be too low if the 2nd CZ and SWC sleepers are only missing from one or two sets not from all of them. My quick estimate was "how many does it take to put 1 sleeper on every Superliner train except CS and CL?" and came up with 6(7/8)+6(27/28)+6(5/6)+6(3/4)+3(1/2)+4(21/22)+3(58/59) + 8(11/14) + 6(29/30) = 48. (And there are some number of non-deluxe sleepers on the Auto Train.)
On further investigation, I see I failed to realize just how horribly inefficient the TE/SL equipment utilization is; that will add, I think, 4 more to the tally.
That also is pretending that all of the transdorms are running - there are, as we've seen this week, some number of transdorms out of service, and some number of full sleepers running in place of transdorms now. It may well be that closer to 70 of the 100 are in use.

100 sleepers can, in principle, put 2 on each train and 3 on some.


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## Eric in East County

Eric in East County said:


> As many of you will remember, early last June we had to cancel our LD trip to Ohio after our bedroom reservation on SWC No. 4 was shot out from under us when the second sleeper was replaced with a Trans-Dorm sleeper, and we couldn’t be downgrade because the train was sold out.
> 
> Rather than forego this year’s trip we decided to reschedule it to late September-early October.
> 
> On June 16th, Amtrak sold us round trip SWC bedroom accommodations (again in the second sleeper.) One of these was the last bedroom still available.
> 
> This morning, we received the following e-mail:
> 
> “We wanted to let you know that the [second] Sleeper Car has been removed from train #0004, the Southwest Chief, from Los Angeles Union Station on Tuesday, September 20th. We've changed your reservation to standard Coach seating and will refund you for the price difference.
> 
> We're sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks for being a valued Amtrak customer - we'll see you onboard.”
> 
> Since, as seniors, we’re no longer up to making a long-distance train trip in coach, we’ll be contacting Customer Relations to see about rescheduling our trip to June-July 2023 with the stipulation that our SWC bedrooms be in the first sleeper. We’ll keep you posted on how we make out.
> 
> Eric & Pat


This morning, we got up early and called Amtrak Customer Relations at 8:00 a.m., right when they opened. Within 9 minutes, we were talking to a Customer Relations agent who rescheduled all our reservations to June-July 2023.

We were able to obtain bedrooms in the 330 and 430 cars for the dates we wanted. (We’ll be in Bedroom D heading east and Bedroom E heading west.)

Although we’ll have to wait 10 months before our trip takes place, we feel reasonably confident that we won’t be downgraded in the event that there is an “equipment shortage” next summer.

We were also given a $300 credit voucher, so these new tickets ended up costing us the same price we’d originally paid last December for our June-July 2022 tickets.

As Nero Wolfe would say, “Satisfactory. Highly satisfactory.”


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## Sidney

Eric in East County said:


> This morning, we got up early and called Amtrak Customer Relations at 8:00 a.m., right when they opened. Within 9 minutes, we were talking to a Customer Relations agent who rescheduled all our reservations to June-July 2023.
> 
> We were able to obtain bedrooms in the 330 and 430 cars for the dates we wanted. (We’ll be in Bedroom D heading east and Bedroom E heading west.)
> 
> Although we’ll have to wait 10 months before our trip takes place, we feel reasonably confident that we won’t be downgraded in the event that there is an “equipment shortage” next summer.
> 
> We were also given a $300 credit voucher, so these new tickets ended up costing us the same price we’d originally paid last December for our June-July 2022 tickets.
> 
> As Nero Wolfe would say, “Satisfactory. Highly satisfactory.”


At least they gave you a decent credit voucher. That's the right thing to do for your inconvenience. Let's hope things are improved by next June. The last thing a customer who had booked a sleeper months in advance is the "downgraded to Coach". Hardly anybody would accept that.


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## skeptic_rugs0o

I decided to live dangerously. I had a reservation for this morning with a roomette on 632. I waited to see if it would get changed and as the day approached, It still showed my roomette on car 632. Indeed, it still showed 632 last night. Well, this morning, It now shows me on car 640. No disruption to my plan, but a last minute change.


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## MccfamschoolMom

skeptic_rugs0o said:


> I decided to live dangerously. I had a reservation for this morning with a roomette on 632. I waited to see if it would get changed and as the day approached, It still showed my roomette on car 632. Indeed, it still showed 632 last night. Well, this morning, It now shows me on car 640. No disruption to my plan, but a last minute change.


Thank goodness you still have a roomette, even if it's in a different car!


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## skeptic_rugs0o

skeptic_rugs0o said:


> I decided to live dangerously. I had a reservation for this morning with a roomette on 632. I waited to see if it would get changed and as the day approached, It still showed my roomette on car 632. Indeed, it still showed 632 last night. Well, this morning, It now shows me on car 640. No disruption to my plan, but a last minute change.


As it turns out, there is a 632 car, so I don't know why I got moved at the last minute.


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## briangannon

The CZ arriving in Chicago today had three sleepers and a transition sleeper (plus a single-level cafe car behind the baggage car, go figure). I suspect that was because VIPs were onboard with the debut of the new engines (four total on this train).


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## Bob Dylan

briangannon said:


> The CZ arriving in Chicago today had three sleepers and a transition sleeper (plus a single-level cafe car behind the baggage car, go figure). I suspect that was because VIPs were onboard with the debut of the new engines (four total on this train).


Yep, SOP in all Industries when VIPs are around!


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## Widfara

zephyr17 said:


> If you rebook on the Zephyr, make sure you are in the 31 car. That is the "base" sleeper for the train and they cannot pull that without losing sleeper capacity entirely.
> 
> If you elect to switch to one of the other western trains, the 30 car is the "base" sleeper on those.


My ticket says car 640 on the CZ roomette xx on October 14th. What does this mean?


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## UserNameRequired

Widfara said:


> My ticket says car 640 on the CZ roomette xx on October 14th. What does this mean?


This should mean you are on the sleeper designated as the Trans dorm car. Amtrak employees are bunking on the sleeper too.

We were moved from a sleeper to the trans dorm for 2 days from now.


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## AmtrakBlue

briangannon said:


> The CZ arriving in Chicago today had three sleepers and a transition sleeper (plus a single-level cafe car behind the baggage car, go figure). I suspect that was because VIPs were onboard with the debut of the new engines (four total on this train).


Seeing that we’re up to #s 313 & 314, and that 301 & 309 have been in service for awhile, it isn’t debuting them. They’re being delivered to Amtrak (to the Wilm DE shops).
I don’t know if any VIPs were on the train. More likely technicians & maintenance people since this is the first train to have only the new engines pulling it.


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## billosborn

I am traveling tomorrow on CZ 5(28) from Chicago to Sacramento. My friend and I are in a roomette in 0531, which from what I have read is a pretty "safe" sleeper as far as the risk of being downgraded to coach. Should I post my experiences from the trip elsewhere, either on a new thread or existing one? 

Looking forward to a reasonablly ontime travel across the Rockies - I have seen them before, but my European friend is really looking forward to the scenery - it would be a shame if we are over 6 hours late and go through at night... I even uses a coupon to reserve coach seats for the following day from Denver is a big delay occurs. If we are reasonably ontime when arriving Monday morning, I will cancel them; I view the 25% cancellation fee as "insurance", so that my friend can see all of the sights, including the ones by the Colorado River


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## joelkfla

billosborn said:


> I am traveling tomorrow on CZ 5(28) from Chicago to Sacramento. My friend and I are in a roomette in 0531, which from what I have read is a pretty "safe" sleeper as far as the risk of being downgraded to coach. Should I post my experiences from the trip elsewhere, either on a new thread or existing one?


There is a separate forum for Trip Reports: Travelogues / Trip Reports


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## Asher

billosborn said:


> I am traveling tomorrow on CZ 5(28) from Chicago to Sacramento. My friend and I are in a roomette in 0531, which from what I have read is a pretty "safe" sleeper as far as the risk of being downgraded to coach. Should I post my experiences from the trip elsewhere, either on a new thread or existing one?
> 
> Looking forward to a reasonablly ontime travel across the Rockies - I have seen them before, but my European friend is really looking forward to the scenery - it would be a shame if we are over 6 hours late and go through at night... I even uses a coupon to reserve coach seats for the following day from Denver is a big delay occurs. If we are reasonably ontime when arriving Monday morning, I will cancel them; I view the 25% cancellation fee as "insurance", so that my friend can see all of the sights, including the ones by the Colorado River


Hopefully all goes well.


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## zephyr17

31 is the "base" sleeper on the Zephyr.

40 is the dormitory. It normally is a transdorm, but both the Builder and the Zephyr apparently have some consists where a standard sleeper is running in the dormitory's car line.

Both 31 and 40 should be pretty safe on the Zephyr, rule of thumb being the base sleeper and the dorm being generally immune to being cut. I say that with less confidence since @pennyk's report of getting bounced out of a bedroom in the SW Chief's 30 car, though.


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## pennyk

zephyr17 said:


> Both 31 and 40 should be pretty safe on the Zephyr, rule of thumb being the base sleeper and the dorm being generally immune to being cut. I say that with less confidence since @pennyk's report of getting bounced out of a bedroom in the SW Chief's 30 car, though.


I think my downgrade was an unsual situation. My friends in roomettes in the same were not affected. I believe I was extremely unlucky (and am still quite upset over it).


----------



## Anderson

Siegmund said:


> It may well be too low if the 2nd CZ and SWC sleepers are only missing from one or two sets not from all of them. My quick estimate was "how many does it take to put 1 sleeper on every Superliner train except CS and CL?" and came up with 6(7/8)+6(27/28)+6(5/6)+6(3/4)+3(1/2)+4(21/22)+3(58/59) + 8(11/14) + 6(29/30) = 48. (And there are some number of non-deluxe sleepers on the Auto Train.)
> On further investigation, I see I failed to realize just how horribly inefficient the TE/SL equipment utilization is; that will add, I think, 4 more to the tally.
> That also is pretending that all of the transdorms are running - there are, as we've seen this week, some number of transdorms out of service, and some number of full sleepers running in place of transdorms now. It may well be that closer to 70 of the 100 are in use.
> 
> 100 sleepers can, in principle, put 2 on each train and 3 on some.


So, you've traditionally had 2 on all of the trains except for 21/22 (TE, 1+transdorm) and 1/2 (SL, 1+transdorm), but the through sleeper as well (321/322 IIRC); one of the two _Builder _sections (I forget which, but I _think _it's the Portland section); and I _think_ the CONO also tended to only have a single full sleeper.

The CONO and the _Eagle _were always a bit lighter on ridership than the rest of the trains. The _Capitol Limited_ had lower raw ridership numbers, but that train also got about 60% of its ridership from CHI-WAS, CHI-PGH, and PGH-WAS (so literally the endpoints plus one intermediate stop) and IIRC adding Cleveland took that up by about another 6-8%, so that distorts the ridership count vs load factor picture. The _Builder_ is strange because of the split; I know that sometimes one section would get two sleepers and a transdorm while at other times, one section would only have one sleeper (and no transdorm). The _Southwest Chief_ would also occasionally only have 1+transdorm...I think that was seasonal.

On the other hand, the _Coast Starlight_ would run with 2, sometimes 3, and I think occasionally even 4 (though I might be counting a full sleeper that'd been swapped in for a transdorm here) sleepers when it still had the PPC (which could absorb an extra 20 or so diners at lunch/dinner, which I think was key to being _able _to run with an additional sleeper without freezing coach pax out of the diner).

Of course, that's a point for annoyance at running these trains with fewer sleepers: With a Superliner, if you're freezing coach pax out of the diner, in theory three seatings in the diner _should_ be able to accommodate about 5-6 full sleepers' worth of passengers (at "full" capacity): 84*3=252 "slots". With up to 42 pax per sleeper*, that'd give you about 6 sleepers' worth of capacity...but only if every room were filled to capacity, which is never the case. Assuming that each bedroom has two pax, each roomette has 1.5 pax (incl. the Accessible Room), and the Family Room has 4, that gives about 35 pax per sleeping car*. _In theory_ you could actually accommodate 7.2 of those sleepers in a single dining car (yikes!), but let's assume that a table or two are out of commission. That brings you down to about 6.5-6.8 sleepers (depending on if one table or two are out of commission), probably a reasonable number if you're also selling a little space in the Transdorm.

*Remember, one roomette has to go to the SCA.


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## JP1822

Typically changes to consists don’t happen till October 1, but looks like Amtrak Is taking a swipe at this in September (post-Labor Day). So it should be interesting to see what sleepers get removed from from the Superliner based LD trains. 

The CA Zephyr used to get three full Superliner Sleepers AND a Superliner Trans-Dorm Sleeper through Oct 1 - as part of peak summer season. Same for Empire Builder (When counting all up between Seattle and Portland sections). Now to go down to just ONE Superliner Trans-Dorm Sleeper and ONE regular Superliner Sleeper, this is a major “pinch” that’s being squeezed to a train that has a LOT of demand, different markets, and different segments being served than most of the Western Long Hauls. The CA Zephyr is like the last train to hold out with a semi-normal consist since pre-pandemic, other than adding a third sleeper line during peak season. 

There’s no way that passengers will be able to be re-accommodated even on alternate days. Many of trips I booked on the CA Zephyr had me booking a sleeper from Chicago to Denver, and then involving two other sleeper car changes just to get all the way to Emeryville - in sleeper accommodation. 

This is not good news for most. Displaces 6 Superliner Sleeping Cars. Is there any clue as to what other trains post Labor Day or post Oct 1 will be affected by equipment or potential labor shortages? 

I presume the staffing includes the attendant in the adjoining regular Superliner sleeper taking care of the folks in the Superliner Trans-Dorm car? 

If the Coast Starlight is operating with three regular Superliner SLeepers and the Capitol Limited with two regular Superliner SLeepers, can this be sustained into the Fall hopefully? Removing the sleepers will just displace the sleeping car attendant, which seems to be in short supply as it is. 

Course this is based on the premise that all is a labor issue, not an equipment issue or some other sort of problem at hand. Very upsetting for a lot of people….. In general Amtrak ridership and financials are doomed with this continued reduction in capacity. 

Looking forward to better times ahead. In the mean time - everyone needs to book in the “base sleeper” or the sleeper that’s in line right next to the Superliner Diner……


----------



## Bob Dylan

JP1822 said:


> Typically changes to consists don’t happen till October 1, but looks like Amtrak Is taking a swipe at this in September (post-Labor Day). So it should be interesting to see what sleepers get removed from from the Superliner based LD trains.
> 
> The CA Zephyr used to get three full Superliner Sleepers AND a Superliner Trans-Dorm Sleeper through Oct 1 - as part of peak summer season. Same for Empire Builder (When counting all up between Seattle and Portland sections). Now to go down to just ONE Superliner Trans-Dorm Sleeper and ONE regular Superliner Sleeper, this is a major “pinch” that’s being squeezed to a train that has a LOT of demand, different markets, and different segments being served than most of the Western Long Hauls. The CA Zephyr is like the last train to hold out with a semi-normal consist since pre-pandemic, other than adding a third sleeper line during peak season.
> 
> There’s no way that passengers will be able to be re-accommodated even on alternate days. Many of trips I booked on the CA Zephyr had me booking a sleeper from Chicago to Denver, and then involving two other sleeper car changes just to get all the way to Emeryville - in sleeper accommodation.
> 
> This is not good news for most. Displaces 6 Superliner Sleeping Cars. Is there any clue as to what other trains post Labor Day or post Oct 1 will be affected by equipment or potential labor shortages?
> 
> I presume the staffing includes the attendant in the adjoining regular Superliner sleeper taking care of the folks in the Superliner Trans-Dorm car?
> 
> If the Coast Starlight is operating with three regular Superliner SLeepers and the Capitol Limited with two regular Superliner SLeepers, can this be sustained into the Fall hopefully? Removing the sleepers will just displace the sleeping car attendant, which seems to be in short supply as it is.
> 
> Course this is based on the premise that all is a labor issue, not an equipment issue or some other sort of problem at hand. Very upsetting for a lot of people….. In general Amtrak ridership and financials are doomed with this continued reduction in capacity.
> 
> Looking forward to better times ahead. In the mean time - everyone needs to book in the “base sleeper” or the sleeper that’s in line right next to the Superliner Diner……


Most of what you say is true, but in the case of the Texas Eaglete, there's only 1 Sleeper between San Antonio and Chicago, even on 421/422 Days, so the Crew takes up the 4 Downstair Roomettes( 11-14).

If Amtrak takes this Sleeper off, the 32+ Hour trip will remind one of what the SP did to the Sunset Ltd back in the "Train Off" Days before Amtrak!


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## JP1822

Bob Dylan said:


> Most of what you say is true, but in the case of the Texas Eaglete, there's only 1 Sleeper between San Antonio and Chicago, even on 421/422 Days, so the Crew takes up the 4 Downstair Roomettes( 11-14).
> 
> If Amtrak takes this Sleeper off, the 32+ Hour trip will remind one of what the SP did to the Sunset Ltd back in the "Train Off" Days before Amtrak!



Yes, and I am now a bit fuzzy as to when this whole "single sleeper" action happened on the Eaglette when it ran as combined 21/22 and 421/422. For years the "run-through days" is when it was truly an Eagle and ran with the extra through cars - the through coach and sleeper comprising 421/422. I am surprised Amtrak is still doing this shuffle to be honest. Eliminating the shuffle would seemingly save at least one sleeper and one coach from being on "stand-by" at San Antonio. 

I'd also like to know what drove the decision to give the Coast Starlight three regular Superliner Sleepers when most other consists are operating (or will be operating) with just one regular Superliner Sleeper. That third sleeper line requires sleeper car attendants (SCAs). If Amtrak does cut the Coast Starlight back to two sleepers, where will those SCAs be assigned to? In similar theory, where will the SCA assigned to the 532/632 car go to after Labor Day - among the work crews that do have adequate staff? 

Continuing to add/subtract from Superliner LD consists affects the addition and subtraction of SCAs when SCAs are seemingly in limited supply. Empire Builder operated a second Seattle sleeper last year from July 1 to October 1. What happened to those SCAs operating the 2nd sleeper after Oct 1, 2021? This seems like a self-defeating circle that Amtrak is in. 

Amtrak is going on months of not being able to provide capacity for its Midwest Corridor or Long Distance Trains, regardless of seasons. Demand is there.


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## Bob Dylan

The Airlines and Amtrak received Lots of $$$ to Maintain their Staff during the Height of the Pandemic,which they DIDN'T do!

The Suits need to appear before Congress and held accountable for their misuse of this Money!


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## thully

Just booked the SWC for 9/24 on my way to the Gathering as a roomette became available. Turns out it’s in the transdorm - hope there’s no issue with that. Though I will be keeping the flight as a backup - not ideal, but works in my case.


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## Bob Dylan

thully said:


> Just booked the SWC for 9/24 on my way to the Gathering as a roomette became available. Turns out it’s in the transdorm - hope there’s no issue with that. Though I will be keeping the flight as a backup - not ideal, but works in my case.


To answer your question about the Transdorm from your Post in the other Forum, the Roomettes that are Sold in the Transdorm are in the back half of the Car next to the Sleeper ( or other Car behind it)with the Crews psrt of the Car being the Front Part next to the Engine and the Downstairs Level.

The Crew has their own Combo Shower/Bathroom by the Stairs and yours will be close to your Roomette.

You may, or may not have your own SCA, but probably the attendant from the Revenue Sleeper will also attend your Car.

One tip: Ask the LSA to be sure and take your Meal Reservations, sometimes they forget to come to the Transdorm and of course Cozch Passengrrs can't currently eat in the Diner and on this Train the good times fill [email protected]


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## lordsigma

Bob Dylan said:


> The Airlines and Amtrak received Lots of $$$ to Maintain their Staff during the Height of the Pandemic,which they DIDN'T do!
> 
> The Suits need to appear before Congress and held accountable for their misuse of this Money!


This is somewhat misleading (at least about Amtrak.) Amtrak retained its staff for the period in which the CARES act funding was prescribed - to the end of FY20. That funding was not sufficient to maintain the status quo indefinitely into FY21- while they probably should have dipped into rainy day funds to keep people on as long as possible they were unwilling to do that - however on the other hand Amtrak did make this clear to Congress and mentioned what it would take to avoid the cuts in FY21. This funding was included in the Democratic HEROES act which never passed - the furloughs were largely due to the looming election and the fact that they decided to pass a CR instead of a meaningful relief bill that could avoid the cuts - so essentially Congress allowed the cuts to go ahead despite the warnings from Amtrak about their intentions they declined to act. While one can blame Amtrak for not dipping into capital or other sources to maintain staff - one can also blame Congress for declining to act when Amtrak made it very clear their intent - and as a result one could argue that Congress as a result gave its stamp of approval to the cuts. The cuts were not reversed until the American Rescue Plan which happened months later after the new Congress was seated. Amtrak did what they needed to - to the letter of the law. They didn't go further (Which I think most advocates would argue they should have given that most at the time believed the situation would get resolved after the election) but there is not really anything for Congress to say - they declined to pass relief when it could have stopped the cuts.


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## thully

So I ended up calling Amtrak to have them redo the reservation with the voucher from my last trip applied. When doing so, I found that another roomette opened up. That one was in 330, but was on the lower-level. Is there any reason to prefer that over the transdorm, either in general or given the current cancellations? I‘d prefer upper level so I left it alone for now (and it obviously may not last).


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

thully said:


> So I ended up calling Amtrak to have them redo the reservation with the voucher from my last trip applied. When doing so, I found that another roomette opened up. That one was in 330, but was on the lower-level. Is there any reason to prefer that over the transdorm, either in general or given the current cancellations? I‘d prefer upper level so I left it alone for now (and it obviously may not last).


Passengers with mobility issues (and who don't mind eating in their rooms) might prefer a lower-level roomette. You'd also be closer to the shower. The family bedroom is on that level, too, though, so it might be noisier, and you might have a better view if you were to stay on the upper level.


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## Bob Dylan

thully said:


> So I ended up calling Amtrak to have them redo the reservation with the voucher from my last trip applied. When doing so, I found that another roomette opened up. That one was in 330, but was on the lower-level. Is there any reason to prefer that over the transdorm, either in general or given the current cancellations? I‘d prefer upper level so I left it alone for now (and it obviously may not last).


I'd stay in the Transdorm but I'm not one that likes Downstairs Rooms!


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## thully

I’d prefer upper level for views, and convienence of the transdorm vs lower-level regular sleeper seems pretty even (both have same-level shower, but require going either up stairs/through the next car for coffee or the diner/lounge). My only concern is if Amtrak were to substitute a regular sleeper for the transdorm and kick out the passengers due to having less rooms. Is that something that has been happening?


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## west point

When was the FY 2022 budget approved and when did the POTUS sign it? Those dates are when Amtrak should have started hiring not now what maybe 11 months later?


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## lordsigma

west point said:


> When was the FY 2022 budget approved and when did the POTUS sign it? Those dates are when Amtrak should have started hiring not now what maybe 11 months later?



They haven’t just started hiring now.


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## trimetbusfan

thully said:


> I’d prefer upper level for views, and convienence of the transdorm vs lower-level regular sleeper seems pretty even (both have same-level shower, but require going either up stairs/through the next car for coffee or the diner/lounge). My only concern is if Amtrak were to substitute a regular sleeper for the transdorm and kick out the passengers due to having less rooms. Is that something that has been happening?


If anything it would add room. A standard sleeper has more revenue roomettes than a transdorm.


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## thully

trimetbusfan said:


> If anything it would add room. A standard sleeper has more revenue roomettes than a transdorm.


The crew has to sleep somewhere, though - aren’t there less total rooms?


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## Bob Dylan

thully said:


> The crew has to sleep somewhere, though - aren’t there less total rooms?


No, most Transdorms have 24 Roomettes and the H Room Downstairs.

Regular SL Sleepers have 14 Roomettes,5 Bedrooms and the H and Family Bedrooms Downstairs.=21


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## thully

Bob Dylan said:


> No, most Transdorms have 24 Roomettes and the H Room Downstairs.
> 
> Regular SL Sleepers have 14 Roomettes,5 Bedrooms and the H and Family Bedrooms Downstairs.=21


That would be 4 less rooms - so if the Transdorm is fully occupied, 4 passengers would have to be kicked out if they substituted a regular sleeper. Or am I missing something.


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## Bob Dylan

thully said:


> That would be 4 less rooms - so if the Transdorm is fully occupied, 4 passengers would have to be kicked out if they substituted a regular sleeper. Or am I missing something.


You are correct Sir! 4 Transdorm Roomette Pax would be downgraded to Coach UNLESS there was a Bedroom Open!


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## lrh442

JP1822 said:


> I'd also like to know what drove the decision to give the Coast Starlight three regular Superliner Sleepers when most other consists are operating (or will be operating) with just one regular Superliner Sleeper. That third sleeper line requires sleeper car attendants (SCAs).


Perhaps they are better staffed at the LA crew base than Chicago?
Given the difficulty of attracting and retaining OBS crew I doubt Amtrak is eager to start relocating staff on an involuntary basis.


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## thully

Bob Dylan said:


> You are correct Sir! 4 Transdorm Roomette Pax would be downgraded to Coach UNLESS there was a Bedroom Open!


Has that been a common occurrence recently? Wondering if I should keep my eye out for a 330 roomette - the lower-level one is gone now, though I’d really prefer upper.


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## Bob Dylan

thully said:


> Has that been a common occurrence recently? Wondering if I should keep my eye out for a 330 roomette - the lower-level one is gone now, though I’d really prefer upper.


You should be OK in the Transdorm, but as you said, having the Flights as a backup is prudent.

I'm flying to the Gathering, have SWA flight home as a Backup( Points) in case the Sunset is cut back by the Genuises in Charge!


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## trimetbusfan

thully said:


> That would be 4 less rooms - so if the Transdorm is fully occupied, 4 passengers would have to be kicked out if they substituted a regular sleeper. Or am I missing something.


Transdorms have 9 revenue roomettes (plus an H room), while standard sleepers have 6 revenue roomettes, 5 revenue bedrooms, and the H room.


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## thully

trimetbusfan said:


> Transdorms have 9 revenue roomettes (plus an H room), while standard sleepers have 6 revenue roomettes, 5 revenue bedrooms, and the H room.


You mean standard sleepers when used as a crew sleeper, correct? If that’s true, it seems like they’d move some roomettes to bedrooms if there was a swap…

Edit: I saw some old posts suggesting all roomette passengers would be assigned new roomettes, and crew would be assigned bedrooms or roomettes based on seniority. Is this still how it works?


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## SteveSFL

I just got invited to bid for an upgrade from roomette to bedroom on my Zephyr trip later this week. Can you imagine bidding $500 and getting upgraded to a bedroom only to then get downgraded to coach when they remove a sleeper! No thanks! I’ll stay in my 631 roomette!


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## lordsigma

SteveSFL said:


> I just got invited to bid for an upgrade from roomette to bedroom on my Zephyr trip later this week. Can you imagine bidding $500 and getting upgraded to a bedroom only to then get downgraded to coach when they remove a sleeper! No thanks! I’ll stay in my 631 roomette!


I don’t blame you given what’s been going on but in all seriousness that likely wouldn’t happen. All the car inventory changes have been made for whatever the period is they have pulled the second sleeper - they wouldn’t be selling any non existent inventory on the bid up program. This is likely due to a passenger cancellation. If you bid on an upgrade and got it the only way you’d get downgraded is if there was a bad ordered car - and then everyone in the car is screwed anyway. You also don’t find out until just before the trip if you got it - and you would only get it if the room didn’t get sold and no one bid higher - and if you didn’t get it you’d keep your roomette. Given how tight the availability of bedrooms is right now I highly doubt you’d get it even if you bid high likely it will sell normally between now and your trip day.


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## SteveSFL

Yeah looks like that bedroom is gone already but oddly enough it’s letting me book up to 8 roomettes so they must still have a lot of space in the transdorm.


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## trimetbusfan

thully said:


> You mean standard sleepers when used as a crew sleeper, correct? If that’s true, it seems like they’d move some roomettes to bedrooms if there was a swap…
> 
> Edit: I saw some old posts suggesting all roomette passengers would be assigned new roomettes, and crew would be assigned bedrooms or roomettes based on seniority. Is this still how it works?


Yes. 

Based on a recent starlight trip, the crew took room 1 (sca), and 3-10. The bedrooms and lower level roomettes/family room were for revenue sale.


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## UserNameRequired

thully said:


> You mean standard sleepers when used as a crew sleeper, correct? If that’s true, it seems like they’d move some roomettes to bedrooms if there was a swap…
> 
> Edit: I saw some old posts suggesting all roomette passengers would be assigned new roomettes, and crew would be assigned bedrooms or roomettes based on seniority. Is this still how it works?


Ok, so both of our recent CZ had normal sleepers used in place of a trans dorm, 08-20-22 and 08-29-22.

For 08-29-22, we were originally scheduled for 10 months to be in a normal sleeper roomette, 532 car. In early August, we were changed to the 540 car, room 24. Then, after being called in the lounge to lineup in Chicago at 13:15, at 13:22 and 13:44 I got emails saying we were back in the 532 car. Who can read email while walking and lining up 2 suitcases one with 65lb and the other 55lb? We went to the 540 as planned, except it was a normal sleeper, not a trans dorm. Then we were hand assigned on the spot another roomette on 540, but we had to go back and forth a few times (much confusion) since their is no roomette 19 on normal sleepers. We ended up in a different roomette in 540, so we were ok. The SCA really got us squared away well after the numbering issues were resolved. After settling in, my wife said something about a notification from the App so I went and read the email and I later went back to 532 and the roomette we received 45 minutes before departure and it was empty.

The crew seemed to be in the bedrooms and in the first one or two roomettes upstairs and they seemed to be in the downstairs roomettes too.

The front of this sleeper used as a trans dorm had a proper cover over where the rail fan window was, held on with yellow ratchet straps. The last one had the straps hanging loose like the cover wasn't put on or it fell off at some point.


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## trimetbusfan

UserNameRequired said:


> Ok, so both of our recent CZ had normal sleepers used in place of a trans dorm, 08-20-22 and 08-29-22.
> 
> For 08-29-22, we were originally scheduled for 10 months to be in a normal sleeper roomette, 532 car. In early August, we were changed to the 540 car, room 24. Then, after being called in the lounge to lineup in Chicago at 13:15, at 13:22 and 13:44 I got emails saying we were back in the 532 car. Who can read email while walking and lining up 2 suitcases one with 65lb and the other 55lb? We went to the 540 as planned, except it was a normal sleeper, not a trans dorm. Then we were hand assigned on the spot another roomette on 540, but we had to go back and forth a few times (much confusion) since their is no roomette 19 on normal sleepers. We ended up in a different roomette in 540, so we were ok. The SCA really got us squared away well after the numbering issues were resolved. After settling in, my wife said something about a notification from the App so I went and read the email and I later went back to 532 and the roomette we received 45 minutes before departure and it was empty.
> 
> The crew seemed to be in the bedrooms and in the first one or two roomettes upstairs and they seemed to be in the downstairs roomettes too.
> 
> The front of this sleeper used as a trans dorm had a proper cover over where the rail fan window was, held on with yellow ratchet straps. The last one had the straps hanging loose like the cover wasn't put on or it fell off at some point.


Sounds like they had a last minute equipment substation.. but twice, that is weird. Could it perhaps had been the same consist both times?


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## Rasputin

The recent cancellations of sleeping car reservations must have involved hundreds and perhaps thousands of (potential) Amtrak passengers who have now been downgraded to coach. This appears to be unprecedented in the history of Amtrak. 

Perhaps I have missed it but has anyone from Amtrak management, especially senior management, issued any statement concerning this problem. Have they shown any sign that they are aware of the problem or that they consider it to be a problem? Perhaps they are aware of it and just prefer to have these unpleasant matters handled by their underlings at Customer Relations.


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## jpakala

I remember all-coach streamliners with coach porters who presumably slept in a seat, and in 12 section & 1 drawing room Pullmans the porter shined shoes at night in the men's room and caught 40 winks on the sofa-seat there. Later he had one of the roomettes at least sometimes. I don't know where the Pullman conductor slept, although of course with stops during the night such personnel had to be on duty in full uniform.


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## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> The recent cancellations of sleeping car reservations must have involved hundreds and perhaps thousands of (potential) Amtrak passengers who have now been downgraded to coach. This appears to be unprecedented in the history of Amtrak.
> 
> Perhaps I have missed it but has anyone from Amtrak management, especially senior management, issued any statement concerning this problem. Have they shown any sign that they are aware of the problem or that they consider it to be a problem? Perhaps they are aware of it and just prefer to have these unpleasant matters handled by their underlings at Customer Relations.



They sort of did. It was acknowledged a number of times by their spokesperson in articles when they went back to daily trains just before summer that consists and capacity would be less than desired due to staffing shortages. While a direct comment by executives may be well received by those of us that follow Amtrak closely it’s probably not going to make a difference to the more casual person who gets downgraded and doesnt follow Amtrak as much. At the end of the day it’s their version of reducing flights because of staffing and it’s harder to re accommodate in the same accommodation due to the fact the train only runs once a day and the sleeper inventory is tight on some of these trains. But at the end of the day that’s really more a function and limitation of the mode than Amtrak really doing anything different than the airlines. I’d personally rather see them reduce the availability of inventory months out until they know for sure they can add a car before opening up more inventory. Though that probably wouldn’t fly for revenue and yield management reasons.


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## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> I’d personally rather see them reduce the availability of inventory months out until they know for sure they can add a car before opening up more inventory. Though that probably wouldn’t fly for revenue and yield management reasons.


But they did do that with the Cap Ltd. There was only 1 sleeper available for Sept., until they added a 2nd one a couple of weeks ago.

Unfortunately, the SuperStar and the upcoming Silver Meteor suffered the same fate as the western trains, suddenly losing a sleeper that had already been booked. Perhaps a shortage of Viewliner sleepers or eastern OBS caught them off guard.


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## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> Perhaps a shortage of Viewliner sleepers or eastern OBS caught them off guard.


Yeah, staffing and equipment issues that have been happening for well over a year caught them "off guard".

Right..........


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## joelkfla

zephyr17 said:


> Yeah, staffing and equipment issues that have been happening for well over a year caught them "off guard".
> 
> Right..........


But they didn't seem to be affecting the Viewliners or the Florida crews until now.


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## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> But they didn't seem to be affecting the Viewliners or the Florida crews until now.


So they didn't have a headcount of Florida crews until now? Just like they didn't have one in Chicago for the Zephyr until early August?

Yep, that's some planning going on there, all right.


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## AmtrakBlue

zephyr17 said:


> So they didn't have a headcount of Florida crews until now? Just like they didn't have one in Chicago for the Zephyr until early August?
> 
> Yep, that's some planning going on there, all right.


People are known to quit their jobs, especially since the pandemic started. Even if they give 2 weeks notice it takes much more time than that to hire & train new employees.


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## zephyr17

AmtrakBlue said:


> People are known to quit their jobs, especially since the pandemic started. Even if they give 2 weeks notice it takes much more time than that to hire & train new employees.


Yes, but they know there is turnover, and they probably have a reasonable handle on the post-COVID rate of turnover/attrition at this point.

They should have released inventory based on a bad/worst case scenario instead of an optimistic one.

You sound like they should be surprised people quit. They should not be, if they are it reflects poorly on their management skills. They ought to have a have a handle on the attrition rates in the recent and current environments, their hiring and on boarding rates and make their staffing and inventory plans accordingly.


----------



## Ryan

If it was happening in isolation, to Amtrak only, you might have a point. But literally the entire universe is having staffing problems and as bas as you think Amtrak management may be, I doubt that they're bad enough to see the universal staffing issues we're seeing both inside and outside of Amtrak.

But by all means, continue to rant about how bad management is with nothing to back it up. It's entertaining to read.


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## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> While a direct comment by executives may be well received by those of us that follow Amtrak closely it’s probably not going to make a difference to the more casual person who gets downgraded and doesnt follow Amtrak as much.


I seem to recall that a number of senior airline executives did appear in the national media and apologize for the airline meltdown. That did not solve the problem but at least it was clear that they were aware of the problem. I don't recall anything similar from senior Amtrak officials. Perhaps they have been too busy staring in disbelief at their recent bonus checks. 

The Amtrak meltdown over the past few months speaks for itself. Res Ipsa Loquitur.


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## Trucker72

We had our sleeper car removed from the CZ, Denver to Emeryville. After seeing a post here I checked out roomette availability and lo and behold there were 3 roomettes available from Grand Junction. Just changed our reservations to coach from Denver to Grand Junction and a roomette from Grand Junction to Emeryville. Saved about 150 overall. Travelling on 9/14.


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## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> I seem to recall that a number of senior airline executives did appear in the national media and apologize for the airline meltdown. That did not solve the problem but at least it was clear that they were aware of the problem. I don't recall anything similar from senior Amtrak officials. Perhaps they have been too busy staring in disbelief at their recent bonus checks.
> 
> The Amtrak meltdown over the past few months speaks for itself. Res Ipsa Loquitur.


Meltdown at Amtrak Chicago and the related routes - yes. Meltdown at Amtrak across the board - I don't agree.


----------



## Rasputin

Trucker72 said:


> We had our sleeper car removed from the CZ, Denver to Emeryville. After seeing a post here I checked out roomette availability and lo and behold there were 3 roomettes available from Grand Junction. Just changed our reservations to coach from Denver to Grand Junction and a roomette from Grand Junction to Emeryville. Saved about 150 overall. Travelling on 9/14.


I assume Amtrak never presented that option to you when you were downgraded (assuming it was available and maybe it wasn't). You had to find this option yourself.


----------



## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> I assume Amtrak never presented that option to you when you were downgraded (assuming it was available and maybe it wasn't). You had to find this option yourself.


I do wish some of the agents would think a bit outside the box - this sort of thing can be a good solution for some people.


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## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> Meltdown at Amtrak Chicago and the related routes - yes. Meltdown at Amtrak across the board - I don't agree.


Since Chicago is the hub of most of the long distance network, that is a pretty significant meltdown. The "related routes" are most of the sleeper routes which are the actual subject of this thread.

That the NEC didn't experience a meltdown is unsurprising, since nothing else counts.

I'll repeat what @Rasputin said, Res Ipsa Loquitur.


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## trimetbusfan

lordsigma said:


> I do wish some of the agents would think a bit outside the box - this sort of thing can be a good solution for some people.


I’ve seen station agents do this for people before. Talked to one passenger on the train (bought a last minute ticket) who said the agent was able to get him on a roomette for part of the trip, Coach for the rest.


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## jis

lordsigma said:


> Meltdown at Amtrak Chicago and the related routes - yes. Meltdown at Amtrak across the board - I don't agree.





zephyr17 said:


> Since Chicago is the hub of most if the long distance network, that is a pretty significant meltdown. The "related routes" are most of the sleeper routes which are the actual subject of this thread.
> 
> That the NEC didn't experience a meltdown is unsurprising, since nothing else counts.



I think the Sleeper fiasco has little to do with Chicago per se. It is just that staffing did not recover as fast as had been planned, for whatever reason. I think handling of it has been sub par and part of the reason may be because of the broken CRS system, which apparently has very little automated notification working about anything.

NEC has had its moments with cancellations too, but when a route has dozens of services a day, such become less disruptive overall.


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## greatwestern

Rasputin said:


> I assume Amtrak never presented that option to you when you were downgraded (assuming it was available and maybe it wasn't). You had to find this option yourself.


I don't think Amtrak is doing anything to (automatically) mitigate the situation for downgraded passengers.

I was downgraded (Emeryville - LA - Chicago) from Bedroom to Coach on the SWC in June and it was myself whilst on hold waiting for an agent who found an alternative (Emeryville - Chicago) a Roomette on the CZ.

Similarly having again been downgraded from Bedroom to Coach on my upcoming September booking CZ from Sacramento to Chicago - it was me that found an alternative Sacramento - LA - Chicago where there was a roomette available on the SWC.

(Subsequently I have seen both Bedroom and Roomette availability on my originally booked September CZ train - I presume there was no attempt to offer those accommodations to downgraded passengers before listing them as available for new bookers).


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## zephyr17

Doing anything tricky (shifting routes, changing room occupancy to only part of the route) is probably beyond the capability of automation, and would need the passenger's approval.

Doing something like that will require a person. A few years ago, when Amtrak actually called you to notify you of a change, you could have worked it out then. Now, it requires that an agent handle it, and likely with the passenger having to do the legwork of finding the alternative.


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## jis

zephyr17 said:


> Doing anything tricky (shifting routes, changing room occupancy to only part of the route) is probably beyond the capability of automation, and would need the passenger's approval.
> 
> Doing something like that will require a person. A few years ago, when Amtrak actually called you to notify you of a change, you could have worked it out then. Now, it requires that an agent handle it, and likely with the passenger having to do the legwork of finding the alternative.


Just to give an example of what is possible if one has a functional IT system ....

On my way out to India the Newark to Delhi leg got cancelled due to mechanical. As soon as the cancellation happened, while we were still sitting in the plane at the gate I got an SMS instructing me to call a number, different from any of the standard published number. It was answered and as usual I was placed in a queue, but within 10 minutes I was talking to a lady who presented me with two alternatives, one of which disappeared while we were talking as one of the flights got filled up. So I agreed to the other one, which involved a downgrade on a short domestic leg in India. It took almost an hour to re-ticket the original now spanning three airlines United, Lufthansa and Air India. I got more than adequate Future Flight Credits to cover for the small downgrade.

Once that was done I got another SMS with a choice of three hotels to choose from in the Newark area complements of United including breakfast. I picked one and an e-document with reservation info appeared on my phone and I was on my way to the hotel, after picking up my checked bag from the belt. I chose a hotel that had their shuttle operating at what by then was 2am, but had I used a taxi, I was told to submit the receipt for reimbursement.

It was one of the better IRROPS handling experience I had as it did not involve standing in that mile long line at a Service Desk. I didn't know if my lifetime status had anything to do with the extraordinarily good handling or not.

The next day when I showed up at the airport for the 5pm departure to Munich, United checked me through all the way to Kolkata involving three airlines. All the inter-airline transfers went flawlessly and miraculously my bag traveled with me with correct interline transfers all the way!

Amtrak should, for one thing, develop relationships with one or more airlines to be able to offer alternatives involving air transport when in a jam. Usually it does manage to handle misconnects in Chicago well. It should attempt to deploy the same acumen for handling IRROPS across the board, involving foreign (i.e. air or road) carriers where it makes sense. They used to do much more of that in the past. 

In the removal of a Sleeper scenario I would expect to get an SMS and/or email as soon as the change is known, with instructions of what to do, and possibly even an alternative or two to choose from and approve and take it from there. But that would require an extremely functional IT platform.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AA and DL automatically update you and reschedule or reroute you right there in the app. I'm sure UA is the same but it's been a while. It just amazes me how airlines could start with a system very similar to Amtrak and be this far ahead while Amtrak seems to be going backward somehow. It's just nuts.


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## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> AA and DL automatically update you and reschedule or reroute you right there in the app. I'm sure UA is the same but it's been a while. It just amazes me how airlines could start with a system very similar to Amtrak and be this far ahead while Amtrak seems to be going backward somehow. It's just nuts.


I agree.

UA does auto handling if the reroute is in house, but consults when it involves re-ticketing involving different airlines and potential downgrades, which is what happened in my case. What was a United and Vistara itinerary became a United, Lufthansa and Air India one. BTW the other one involved Emirates, which surprised me, but I just learned that Emirates and United are about to announce a large code share agreement on the 14th of Sept!

The legacy CRSs are all derived from the original two or so, including Amtrak's. But architecturally they have evolved very differently. But that is a matter for another thread.Perhaps we need a thread on the evolution of CRSs. I attempted to seed one, but it went nowhere.


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## jebr

Devil's Advocate said:


> AA and DL automatically update you and reschedule or reroute you right there in the app. I'm sure UA is the same but it's been a while. It just amazes me how airlines could start with a system very similar to Amtrak and be this far ahead while Amtrak seems to be going backward somehow. It's just nuts.



UA, in my limited experience, does very well with rerouting on its own metal. I don't know the exact metric or back-end process, but once a delay is triggered, the app will automatically give a plethora of options for rerouting even for a relatively short delay. I think Delta is similar in that respect. AA, when I had a missed connection, rebooked me on a flight the next day without any obvious option for other rebooking, so I had to visit a counter in that instance. They wouldn't place me on another airline, but I was able to get home that same day with an extra connection and some points to make up for it.

Amtrak's system is woeful in comparison. I don't know if Amtrak auto-rebooks connections if one is missed between a LD train and a Northeast Regional, but it seems reasonable to expect that Amtrak could just do this without a visit to the ticket counter. Ideally a rebooking menu should pop up in the app or website and allow passengers to select their preferred time (maybe they'd rather have a 2-3 hour layover to grab supper after the delay rather than immediately run to the next train.) Offering reasonable self-service options helps everyone - the passenger feels more in control, it saves on labor costs, and (at least in my opinion) makes me feel better about choosing that particular company and may make me want to book with them again because I know they'll handle things decently well.


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## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Please limit the discussion to the topic of sleepers removed and passengers downgraded to coach. Discussions and/or complaints (without name calling) of management may be posted in this thread:





What should Amtrak change?


This forum complains a lot about Amtrak. Though I think we all share a love of what we have been given (no matter how much it may test our love), we will all admit that the company has its shortcomings. I think most on this forum would agree however, that many of Amtrak’s issues do actually...




www.amtraktrains.com


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## Larry H.

A couple days ago I saw a photo of the California Zephyr somewhere in the mountains, leaving Denver I believe it said. It was on a curve by a river and you could make out the whole consist. It was made up of the new double equipment but early in its use I would guess. Anyway with all this discussion of canceled sleepers and removal of diners and being often sold out, I was surprised to be able to count 14 superliner cars making up the train. I don't know when they started all these cut backs and lack of help, but something is wrong that a popular train like that can be neglected so far as cars and conditions.


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## zephyr17

Larry H. said:


> It was made up of the new double equipment but early in its use I would guess.


There ain't no such thing. No new believels have come into service since the Surfliners.

There may have been deadheads of various types, possibly including bilevel California Cars being repatriated from Beech Grove. 

A picture would help. I think an absolute max revenue consist would have been, baggage, 3 sleepers (or transdorm and two sleepers), diner, Sightseer, two coaches. 8 cars max in the active consist. Small chance of 3 coaches, making an active consist of 9.


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## Siegmund

Larry H. said:


> A couple days ago I saw a photo of the California Zephyr somewhere in the mountains, leaving Denver I believe it said. It was on a curve by a river and you could make out the whole consist. It was made up of the new double equipment but early in its use I would guess. Anyway with all this discussion of canceled sleepers and removal of diners and being often sold out, I was surprised to be able to count 14 superliner cars making up the train. I don't know when they started all these cut backs and lack of help, but something is wrong that a popular train like that can be neglected so far as cars and conditions.



This is likely a picture from before the Desert Wind and Pioneer were cancelled.

The usual consist in those times was transdorm, 2 Oakland sleepers, diner, lounge, 2 Oakland coaches, Seattle sleeper, Seattle coach, Los Angeles sleeper, Los Angeles coach, and some times a Los Angeles diner (11 or 12 bilevels) - 14 would be unusual even back then, unless you count the single level baggage cars, but I can imagine a 3rd Oakland coach or a 2nd Los Angeles coach.

The "equipment shortage" sob story for western trains started in the early 90s, when the Superliner II order was not big enough to reequip CONO, CL, and Auto-Train and the western trains got robbed, and got worse when the ATSF Hi-Levels were retired (the transdorm and the Los Angeles diner, and oftentimes 1 or 2 of the coaches, were Hi-Levels and not Superliners).

But even back then, the sleepers were expensive, and sold out every trip all summer, and we bemoaned Amtrak not having bought enough equipment to meet the demand.


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## trimetbusfan

zephyr17 said:


> There ain't no such thing. No new believels have come into service since the Surfliners.
> 
> There may have been deadheads of various types, possibly including bilevel California Cars being repatriated from Beech Grove.
> 
> A picture would help. I think an absolute max revenue consist would have been, baggage, 3 sleepers (or transdorm and two sleepers), diner, Sightseer, two coaches. 8 cars max in the active consist. Small chance of 3 coaches, making an active consist of 9.


A recent Zephyr had 301 + 3 other ALC 42s, an extra Amfleet cafe car and an extra sleeper (on top of the regular consist) making a 14 car total consist.


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## amtrakp42

Trucker72 said:


> Just so everyone knows what they are up against. I called customer service about 2 hours ago. I got transferred to customer relations. Message said a 7 minute wait and I opted for a call back which I promptly received. I was number 1 in line. 40 minutes later I gave up and called back. A very nice customer service agent tried to get someone in customer relations to pick up. She must have given up because after about 10 minutes I was back waiting for customer relations to pick up. 53 minutes later I'm still waiting. Also I am assuming that they don't have enough people to actually staff the Select Plus special handling number. You "talk" to a recording and when "it" can't help you it appears you just get dumped into the standard customer service lines. Got to love what Covid has done to this country.


 If you used points to buy the regular 800 agent will have to send you backto rewards number as they can not handle points.


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## amtrakp42

trimetbusfan said:


> A recent Zephyr had 301 + 3 other ALC 42s, an extra Amfleet cafe car and an extra sleeper (on top of the youregular consist) making a 14 car total consist.


 And for those booked in the middle of Sept 2022, remember if freight railroaders go on strike most all Amtrak trains will be sitting as dispatchers will also be out. So if you leave on Sept 14 to California from Chicago a person may end up in Omaha! Now what a bummer.


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## Almarode

pennyk said:


> I believe it is unlikely that it would be permitted and I certainly would not count on it.


I am interested if that is happening soon. I was down graded to a coach from a bedroom. Looking for a sleeper from Slc to Chi on October 3.


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## Almarode

jcmascarenas said:


> We had 2 bedrooms booked on the Zephyr for 9/18. Also received an email about a sleeper car being removed. Their communication is atrocious as there was not updated reservation information. It wasn't until I called that I discovered that one bedroom had been moved to coach because the other was on a different car. No communication about the amount of the refund. Again had to ask on the call. The agent was rude. For the moment, leaving the reservation as is because my in-laws are coming from the UK for this trip. Anyone ever have any luck picking up a cancellation? I guess I'll be stalking the website in the hopes that I get lucky. Also, does anyone have any insight on seat swaps? I ask because my in-laws will have the room, but by the time of the trip I'll be 17 weeks pregnant. In-laws have said I could have a night in the sleeper and one of them will sit coach. Would the attendant allow that?


JCmascarenas, If anyway possible, I am interested in any kind of sleepers that would become available from Salt Lake City to Chicago on October 3. My wife and I , both seniors were down graded on 2 different trains. We went from a bedroom to coach. So any upgrade would be a blessing. This session of our vacation on our return trip to Richmond Virginia lasts 35 hours. Coach is going to be challenging. But any upgrade will help.Thanks for any leads and assistance.


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## zephyr17

trimetbusfan said:


> A recent Zephyr had 301 + 3 other ALC 42s, an extra Amfleet cafe car and an extra sleeper (on top of the regular consist) making a 14 car total consist.


When I said "active consist" I meant not including any deadheads in the physical consist.


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## John819

amtrakp42 said:


> And for those booked in the middle of Sept 2022, remember if freight railroaders go on strike most all Amtrak trains will be sitting as dispatchers will also be out. So if you leave on Sept 14 to California from Chicago a person may end up in Omaha! Now what a bummer.


Because of the absolutely devastating effect a strike would have on the economy and the food supply, Congress would probably impose a legislative settlement within a day.


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## irv818

Reading this has me worried.
Can someone clarify this for me: I'm planning a trip from ATL to Seattle, with a sleeper or bedroom all the way. Is it correct that I could arrive in, say CHI, to find that my room on the EB had been cancelled, and if so, what exactly are my options? Will AMTRAK give me a full refund for the remainder of the trip if I don't accept a coach seat? Will I have to pay for a hotel room hoping that tomorrows train will have a sleeper available? Or what? 
Thanks.


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## zephyr17

irv818 said:


> Reading this has me worried.
> Can someone clarify this for me: I'm planning a trip from ATL to Seattle, with a sleeper or bedroom all the way. Is it correct that I could arrive in, say CHI, to find that my room on the EB had been cancelled, and if so, what exactly are my options? Will AMTRAK give me a full refund for the remainder of the trip if I don't accept a coach seat? Will I have to pay for a hotel room hoping that tomorrows train will have a sleeper available? Or what?
> Thanks.


Well, the removal of car lines throughout this mess was done in advance, not the day of the trip. Amtrak wasn't notifying immediately after they removed car lines from service, but they did notify affected passengers in advance (even if not as far in advance as they could have). They refunded the accommodation charges and would do a full refund if the downgrade wasn't accepted.

It wasn't done on a day by day basis, the car lines were cut from the train entirely, so laying over would not do any good unless the remaining car had space the next day. In any case, it was up to the passenger to request modification of the reservation to a different day. They were not holding the price steady, if rebooking for a different day, the price would be current bucket and the passenger would have to pay the difference.

In any case, it is done now and the Seattle section of the Builder is now down to minimum consists, they really cannot cut the remaining sleeper.

You said "plan". That leaves whether or not you have a reservation unclear. If you have one in the next few months, you are probably good. If you have not booked yet (and intend on traveling in a Bedroom), call to book instead of using the website and make sure you are in the 730 car. That is the "base" sleeper for the train and won't get cut. If you were in a roomette, the 732 (transdorm) would be okay, too. Avoid the 731 car until this mess has definitively blown over.


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## irv818

Thanks! I guess I get to play phone tag now. 
I went from ATL to Baltimore a couple years ago by coach, and decided that was really too long a trip to sit thru. For me, cross country requires a bed.


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## zephyr17

irv818 said:


> Thanks! I guess I get to play phone tag now.
> I went from ATL to Baltimore a couple years ago by coach, and decided that was really too long a trip to sit thru. For me, cross country requires a bed.


Price your trip using the website and remember fares can vary a lot, so it is best if you are flexible on travel days. Then book it with an agent so you can choose your car.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Just checked my reservations for Dec 18th. Our family room on the CZ was CANCELLED. No noticed I just found out by my weekly checking, on hold with consumer relations now…

Spent an hour plus with Guest relations. The 32 cars are gone until next summer from what they can tell. I asked why wasn’t I notified she said unfortunately Amtrak has been sending out the notification emails 2 weeks before the travel date. She agreed this was horrible since they know in most cases months in advance.

I was able to get a Senate staffer involved, since I had brought this subject up with them just this week, that helped immensely. Long story short Guest relations wasnt able to help us on the 18th but we got a small upgrade on 12/19 going from a family room to one bedroom and one roomette in the transition car not ideal but we had too many other travel plans that were non refundable we couldn’t cancel.

If you have any reservations in the 32 cars on any train check them weekly. Reading between the lines from what the guest relations agent and her supervisor said and implied this is being done deliberately at some level.


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## Rasputin

Just when you think it can't get any worse, Amtrak proves otherwise. They seem to be specialists at this and over and over again cause incalculable damage to their own business.


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## GDRRiley

zephyr17 said:


> There may have been deadheads of various types, possibly including bilevel California Cars being repatriated from Beech Grove.


There are only 2 dead California cars both cabs which are not planned at this time to be rebuilt.


Siegmund said:


> The "equipment shortage" sob story for western trains started in the early 90s, when the Superliner II order was not big enough to reequip CONO, CL, and Auto-Train and the western trains got robbed, and got worse when the ATSF Hi-Levels were retired (the transdorm and the Los Angeles diner, and oftentimes 1 or 2 of the coaches, were Hi-Levels and not Superliners).


Still always confused why amtrak retired the hi levels. They should have just been rebuilt to use more superliner equipment if they weren't going to buy more stock. I believe almost all still exist being held by a leasing company.


Hopefully with the new LD coaches having a 4.2B budget they can get 800-100 new cars which would allow more trains and fix their equipment issues. Right now they are running on around 380 coaches


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## Ryan

GDRRiley said:


> Still always confused why amtrak retired the hi levels.


For the same reason you see very few 60 year old cars on the road?


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## GDRRiley

Ryan said:


> For the same reason you see very few 60 year old cars on the road?


the body being stainless steel was fine. put the thing on new trucks and a modern HVAC system they would have lasted till the 2030s when all superliners will go


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## jis

GDRRiley said:


> the body being stainless steel was fine. put the thing on new trucks and a modern HVAC system they would have lasted till the 2030s when all superliners will go


But there was no budget to do any of it. Just wishing it could be done does not appropriate funds.  Retrucking can be quite expensive for example, leaving aside the cost of gut and rebuild.


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## Ryan

Even if there were the budget for it, buying a new car would almost certainly be cheaper than the design work and limited production run for a handful of cars. As someone that professionally supports a class of three oddball ships, there's a reason we're getting rid of as much of the bespoke crap as possible and going common with the rest of the fleet. Supply chain tails and engineering woes are EXPENSIVE.

There's a reason people buy new cars and don't replace the drivetrain on their '72 Pinto and keep driving it.


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## lordsigma

Amtrakfflyer said:


> If you have any reservations in the 32 cars on any train check them weekly. Reading between the lines from what the guest relations agent and her supervisor said and implied this is being done deliberately at some level.



This situation is problematic and certainly demands extensive advocacy attention to get to the bottom of it and put Amtrak on the hot seat on their plan to deal with the situation. But I think when dealing with policy makers it’s best to stick to the issues themselves and be cautious about making accusations about deliberate intentions. Such things aren’t really possible to prove and intentions are irrelevant - the issues themselves speak for themselves as far as demanding action. Conspiracy requires a certain amount of organization and cohesiveness. The organization appears to be quite disorganized with the leadership not really engaged with the field and lack of any coherent plan. Sounds more like incompetence across various layers of management and lack of communication and cohesiveness than ill intent combined with the legitimate operational challenges faced by the company. Either way what’s in the hearts of leadership is irrelevant - it’s an issue that warrants advocacy attention.


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## Amtrakfflyer

My main issue in talking to two guest relations agents today including a senior supervisor was the fact I wasn’t notified. They stated they know and notifications only go out 2 weeks before travel dates. They have been asking for this to change for months but have faced resistance. There is going to be a whole lot of unhappy people over the holidays unless Amtrak starts notifying people in a timely manner.

My Senator and I have a letter from Kennith Altman Amtrak VP government affairs dated 10/5/22 saying Amtrak is not canceling trains or reservations. A week later (today) they canceled the reservation in question. We are sticking with the facts and seeing where this leads.


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## lordsigma

Amtrakfflyer said:


> My main issue in talking to two guest relations agents today including a senior supervisor was the fact I wasn’t notified. They stated they know and notifications only go out 2 weeks before travel dates. They have been asking for this to change for months but have faced resistance.
> My Senator and I have a letter from Kennith Altman Amtrak VP government affairs dated 10/5/22 saying Amtrak is not canceling trains or reservations. A week later (today) they canceled the reservation in question. We are sticking with the facts and seeing where this leads.


Just to clarify I wasn’t implying that you weren’t just making a general cautionary statement.


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## zephyr17

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Just checked my reservations for Dec 18th. Our family room on the CZ was CANCELLED. No noticed I just found out by my weekly checking, on hold with consumer relations now…
> 
> Spent an hour plus with Guest relations. The 32 cars are gone until next summer from what they can tell. I asked why wasn’t I notified she said unfortunately Amtrak has been sending out the notification emails 2 weeks before the travel date. She agreed this was horrible since they know in most cases months in advance.
> 
> I was able to get a Senate staffer involved, since I had brought this subject up with them just this week, that helped immensely. Long story short Guest relations wasnt able to help us on the 18th but we got a small upgrade on 12/19 going from a family room to one bedroom and one roomette in the transition car not ideal but we had too many other travel plans that were non refundable we couldn’t cancel.
> 
> If you have any reservations in the 32 cars on any train check them weekly. Reading between the lines from what the guest relations agent and her supervisor said and implied this is being done deliberately at some level.


Just a point of clarity on car line numbers, otherwise I agree with you entirely.

The cars safest from these cuts throughout this clown show are what I call the "base" sleepers. Second in safety are the transdorms.

On most Superliner trains the base sleeper is the 30 car line and the transdorm is the 40 car line. The at risk second sleeper is the 31 car line. _With the following exceptions:_

5/6 - base sleeper is the 31 car. Transdorm is the 40 car line. The risky second sleeper is the 32 car line.

7/8 - base sleeper is the 30 car line. Transdorm is the 32 car line. Risky second sleeper is the 31 car line. Note that both standard sleepers and transdorms as the 32 car line on various consists.

27/28. Doesn't generally have a second sleeper assigned. 30 car line is the base sleeper.

1/2. No second sleeper. 30 car line is safe.

21/22, 421/422. No second sleeper, no transdorm 30 car line should be safe.

11/14 - no transdorm. Up to 3 sleepers. Beware 31 and 32.

29/30-base sleeper car line 00, risky second sleeper 01.

Until this definitely blows over, always call for reservations and try to get placed in the "base" sleeper. This has been going on since May, first on the Builder, then on the SW Chief and finally the CZ. Do not treat any train as safe even if it is running a second sleeper today.

Finally, while they are not notifying people on timely basis, generally it seems that it will show on the app pretty much as soon as the cars are cut from inventory. If the car has been cut and the reservation cancelled, the reservation will stop showing a QR code in the app. For anyone holding sleeper reservations currently, I suggest checking the app every few days to make sure it looks okay. If it doesn't, call. You'll beat those pending the late notifications in getting any open base sleeper accommodations or on another day.

I do not excuse any aspect of Amtrak's handling of this. I only offer the information in the spirit that a little knowledge and insight can help make the best of a bad situation.


----------



## yarrow

plan to call agr tomorrow again. checked on these with agr a couple weeks ago and was told all was well but will check again tomorrow. we are on the cz glenwood springs to sacramento 10/29 car 531 rm 2. on the cz sacramento to glenwood springs 10/26 car 631 rm 2. does anyone have input on whether these are safe? thanks


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## zephyr17

yarrow said:


> plan to call agr tomorrow again. checked on these with agr a couple weeks ago and was told all was well but will check again tomorrow. we are on the cz glenwood springs to sacramento 10/29 car 531 rm 2. on the cz sacramento to glenwood springs 10/26 car 631 rm 2. does anyone have input on whether these are safe? thanks


As I said in the post just before yours, the "base" sleepers on 5/6 are the 31 car line. You should be safe, just keep checking the app regularly. No need to call, even the AGR agents won't know what is coming up until it officially happens (whether you are proactively notified is another issue). The app should show you if anything hits your reservation pretty much as soon as it happens. If it does, then call. AGR can't do anything for you until it happens, they are not privy to equipment planning and won't know.


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## joelkfla

Amtrakfflyer said:


> My main issue in talking to two guest relations agents today including a senior supervisor was the fact I wasn’t notified. They stated they know and notifications only go out 2 weeks before travel dates. They have been asking for this to change for months but have faced resistance. There is going to be a whole lot of unhappy people over the holidays unless Amtrak starts notifying people in a timely manner.
> 
> My Senator and I have a letter from Kennith Altman Amtrak VP government affairs dated 10/5/22 saying Amtrak is not canceling trains or reservations. A week later (today) they canceled the reservation in question. We are sticking with the facts and seeing where this leads.


Lucky you to have a senator who takes you seriously. Both of mine just sent me irrelevant canned responses.


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## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> Lucky you to have a senator who takes you seriously. Both of mine just sent me irrelevant canned responses.



Too true and thats always been part of the problem with Amtrak. It’s weird mash between public and private sector and its owners (Congress) have never really given it the attention it deserves nor a consistent long term message. Can’t lose a dime on food service - profit is priority one. Now we have the opposite policy. Not that this excuses decisions made at Amtrak but it makes it hard to have a long term plan for the future when you’re always having to plan for the next congress and administration. There’s a lot more to the problem but the general lack of attention and oversight has always been a contributor to consistency issues at the company. This is probably why Amtrak has a CEO whose pre Amtrak background was the hill instead of someone with significant transportation experience - because of the need to navigate political waters. Our ridiculous disfunctional US politics do not help with having a sturdy reliable Amtrak.


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## Bonser

zephyr17 said:


> Just a point of clarity on car line numbers, otherwise I agree with you entirely.
> 
> The cars safest from these cuts throughout this clown show are what I call the "base" sleepers. Second in safety are the transdorms.
> 
> On most Superliner trains the base sleeper is the 30 car line and the transdorm is the 40 car line. The at risk second sleeper is the 31 car line. _With the following exceptions:_
> 
> 5/6 - base sleeper is the 31 car. Transdorm is the 40 car line. The risky second sleeper is the 32 car line.
> 
> 7/8 - base sleeper is the 30 car line. Transdorm is the 32 car line. Risky second sleeper is the 31 car line. Note that both standard sleepers and transdorms as the 32 car line on various consists.
> 
> 27/28. Doesn't generally have a second sleeper assigned. 30 car line is the base sleeper.
> 
> 1/2. No second sleeper. 30 car line is safe.
> 
> 21/22, 421/422. No second sleeper, no transdorm 30 car line should be safe.
> 
> 11/14 - no transdorm. Up to 3 sleepers. Beware 31 and 32.
> 
> 29/30-base sleeper car line 00, risky second sleeper 01.
> 
> Until this definitely blows over, always call for reservations and try to get placed in the "base" sleeper. This has been going on since May, first on the Builder, then on the SW Chief and finally the CZ. Do not treat any train as safe even if it is running a second sleeper today.
> 
> Finally, while they are not notifying people on timely basis, generally it seems that it will show on the app pretty much as soon as the cars are cut from inventory. If the car has been cut and the reservation cancelled, the reservation will stop showing a QR code in the app. For anyone holding sleeper reservations currently, I suggest checking the app every few days to make sure it looks okay. If it doesn't, call. You'll beat those pending the late notifications in getting any open base sleeper accommodations or on another day.
> 
> I do not excuse any aspect of Amtrak's handling of this. I only offer the information in the spirit that a little knowledge and insight can help make the best of a bad situation.


What exactly is a QR code and where on the app can one find it? Sorry if this was asked before.


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## Trucker72

zephyr17 said:


> Just a point of clarity on car line numbers, otherwise I agree with you entirely.
> 
> The cars safest from these cuts throughout this clown show are what I call the "base" sleepers. Second in safety are the transdorms.
> 
> On most Superliner trains the base sleeper is the 30 car line and the transdorm is the 40 car line. The at risk second sleeper is the 31 car line. _With the following exceptions:_
> 
> 5/6 - base sleeper is the 31 car. Transdorm is the 40 car line. The risky second sleeper is the 32 car line.
> 
> 7/8 - base sleeper is the 30 car line. Transdorm is the 32 car line. Risky second sleeper is the 31 car line. Note that both standard sleepers and transdorms as the 32 car line on various consists.
> 
> 27/28. Doesn't generally have a second sleeper assigned. 30 car line is the base sleeper.
> 
> 1/2. No second sleeper. 30 car line is safe.
> 
> 21/22, 421/422. No second sleeper, no transdorm 30 car line should be safe.
> 
> 11/14 - no transdorm. Up to 3 sleepers. Beware 31 and 32.
> 
> 29/30-base sleeper car line 00, risky second sleeper 01.
> 
> Until this definitely blows over, always call for reservations and try to get placed in the "base" sleeper. This has been going on since May, first on the Builder, then on the SW Chief and finally the CZ. Do not treat any train as safe even if it is running a second sleeper today.
> 
> Finally, while they are not notifying people on timely basis, generally it seems that it will show on the app pretty much as soon as the cars are cut from inventory. If the car has been cut and the reservation cancelled, the reservation will stop showing a QR code in the app. For anyone holding sleeper reservations currently, I suggest checking the app every few days to make sure it looks okay. If it doesn't, call. You'll beat those pending the late notifications in getting any open base sleeper accommodations or on another day.
> 
> I do not excuse any aspect of Amtrak's handling of this. I only offer the information in the spirit that a little knowledge and insight can help make the best of a bad situation.


My wife and I went through the "your sleeper has been cancelled" on the CZ this past September. Since then I have learned so much on this forum that it's unbelievable! This post is just another example that will really help me when I put next September's trip together. Thanks to all that post here!


----------



## Carolyn Bryat

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Just checked my reservations for Dec 18th. Our family room on the CZ was CANCELLED. No noticed I just found out by my weekly checking, on hold with consumer relations now…
> 
> Spent an hour plus with Guest relations. The 32 cars are gone until next summer from what they can tell. I asked why wasn’t I notified she said unfortunately Amtrak has been sending out the notification emails 2 weeks before the travel date. She agreed this was horrible since they know in most cases months in advance.
> 
> I was able to get a Senate staffer involved, since I had brought this subject up with them just this week, that helped immensely. Long story short Guest relations wasnt able to help us on the 18th but we got a small upgrade on 12/19 going from a family room to one bedroom and one roomette in the transition car not ideal but we had too many other travel plans that were non refundable we couldn’t cancel.
> 
> If you have any reservations in the 32 cars on any train check them weekly. Reading between the lines from what the guest relations agent and her supervisor said and implied this is being done deliberately at some level.


----------



## Carolyn Bryat

Same thing happened to us with a June 2022 reservation Columbus WI to Whitefish MT on the Empire Bldr. I only found out by reading the Facebook fan page. I called Guest Relations and no one there knew what was happening. Our car was canceled, and we had been moved from a Family Bedroom to 2 roomettes in the transition sleeper without any notification. I explained that I was traveling with 2 small grandkids and could not have those roomettes separated by 5 rooms during the night! The agent was understanding and said she had a Bedroom open in a different car, which she gave me. I think the car was canceled due to a shortage of on board staff. Had I not been on Facebook, I would not have known in advance and would have had to cram all 3 of us into a roomette as I could not let little kids be alone all night.........

I travel in sleepers at least 4 - 6 times a year, and have had lots of issues this past year.......pays to be alert!! Like you, I know that they knew in advance about that canceled car.......good luck with your trip.


----------



## joelkfla

Bonser said:


> What exactly is a QR code and where on the app can one find it? Sorry if this was asked before.


The modern equivalent of a bar code, like this:


What the conductor scans. It's on the home page of the app, for each ticket.


----------



## joelkfla

zephyr17 said:


> Just a point of clarity on car line numbers, otherwise I agree with you entirely.
> 
> The cars safest from these cuts throughout this clown show are what I call the "base" sleepers. Second in safety are the transdorms.
> 
> On most Superliner trains the base sleeper is the 30 car line and the transdorm is the 40 car line. The at risk second sleeper is the 31 car line. _With the following exceptions:_
> 
> 5/6 - base sleeper is the 31 car. Transdorm is the 40 car line. The risky second sleeper is the 32 car line.
> 
> 7/8 - base sleeper is the 30 car line. Transdorm is the 32 car line. Risky second sleeper is the 31 car line. Note that both standard sleepers and transdorms as the 32 car line on various consists.
> 
> 27/28. Doesn't generally have a second sleeper assigned. 30 car line is the base sleeper.
> 
> 1/2. No second sleeper. 30 car line is safe.
> 
> 21/22, 421/422. No second sleeper, no transdorm 30 car line should be safe.
> 
> 11/14 - no transdorm. Up to 3 sleepers. Beware 31 and 32.
> 
> 29/30-base sleeper car line 00, risky second sleeper 01.
> 
> Until this definitely blows over, always call for reservations and try to get placed in the "base" sleeper. This has been going on since May, first on the Builder, then on the SW Chief and finally the CZ. Do not treat any train as safe even if it is running a second sleeper today.
> 
> Finally, while they are not notifying people on timely basis, generally it seems that it will show on the app pretty much as soon as the cars are cut from inventory. If the car has been cut and the reservation cancelled, the reservation will stop showing a QR code in the app. For anyone holding sleeper reservations currently, I suggest checking the app every few days to make sure it looks okay. If it doesn't, call. You'll beat those pending the late notifications in getting any open base sleeper accommodations or on another day.
> 
> I do not excuse any aspect of Amtrak's handling of this. I only offer the information in the spirit that a little knowledge and insight can help make the best of a bad situation.


For Silver Meteor 97/98, sleepers 10 & 11 so far have been safe; 12 is the one at risk.

I got zapped from it a couple of months ago, and @jis said he got bumped this week.


----------



## Ryan

joelkfla said:


> The modern equivalent of a bar code, like this:
> View attachment 29898
> 
> What the conductor scans. It's on the home page of the app, for each ticket.


Clever example. . This is my go-to demonstration:


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## The Quaking Widow

Ironically, today Amtrak Marketing sent a multi-page beautiful email advertising sleeping accommodations on Amtrak!


----------



## Katymo

Rasputin said:


> Just when you think it can't get any worse, Amtrak proves otherwise. They seem to be specialists at this and over and over again cause incalculable damage to their own business.


I just called Guest Services and the correct story is that they are taking one Sleeper out of service at a time for renovation. Goodness knows they need it. A couple weeks ago I traveled on the CZ from Grand Junction to Chicago with NO working toilets in my car!! I have the accessible bedroom precisely because I need an available toilet!!! I did get a voucher as a form of recompense.

As the Guest Services agent commented, "We couldn't afford to take all Sleepers out of service at one time."


----------



## Rasputin

Katymo said:


> I just called Guest Services and the correct story is that they are taking one Sleeper out of service at a time for renovation. Goodness knows they need it. A couple weeks ago I traveled on the CZ from Grand Junction to Chicago with NO working toilets in my car!! I have the accessible bedroom precisely because I need an available toilet!!! I did get a voucher as a form of recompense.
> 
> As the Guest Services agent commented, "We couldn't afford to take all Sleepers out of service at one time."


It has got to the point where I don't believe a word that they say. Very disappointing.


----------



## Amtrak25

Katymo said:


> I just called Guest Services and the correct story is that they are taking one Sleeper out of service at a time for renovation. Goodness knows they need it. A couple weeks ago I traveled on the CZ from Grand Junction to Chicago with NO working toilets in my car!! I have the accessible bedroom precisely because I need an available toilet!!! I did get a voucher as a form of recompense.
> 
> As the Guest Services agent commented, "We couldn't afford to take all Sleepers out of service at one time."



If one sleeper car line was removed from the SW Chief (5 sets), Coast Starlight (4 sets), and Zephyr (6 sets), that was 15 cars out of service after Labor Day. That is in addition to the Empire Builder never getting its 2nd Seattle sleeper back for most of 2022.

I took the CZ in 2010. Toilets systems break very easily on the D&RGW, so they get a plumbing truck along the way to pump them out, which takes about 15 minutes. Their hydraulic systems do not like high elevations.


----------



## UserNameRequired

Amtrakfflyer said:


> ... Long story short Guest relations wasnt able to help us on the 18th but we got a small upgrade on 12/19 going from a family room to one bedroom and one roomette in the transition car not ideal but we had too many other travel plans that were non refundable we couldn’t cancel.
> ...


I am just curious, did you get an H room on the lower level and a roomette on a real transdorm car, or did you get a A-E bedroom and a roomette on a normal sleeper being used as transdorm? On the CZ normal sleeper transdorm we had in August the A-E were taken up by Amtrak employee type people. @Amtrakfflyer


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## Amtrakfflyer

Bedroom C in the sleeper and roomette 19 in transition sleeper. Not ideal but we can all squeeze in the bedroom during the day since kids are so young, the roomette was just in case we needed more room to sleep at night. They were very accommodating since coach or even 2 roomettes isn’t feasible with a 4+ and 2+ year old. We needed some floor space we usually put a $5 Walmart blanket on the floor so they can play with toys etc.

EMY-GBBCar 631 | Room CCar 640 | Room 19


----------



## trimetbusfan

UserNameRequired said:


> I am just curious, did you get an H room on the lower level and a roomette on a real transdorm car, or did you get a A-E bedroom and a roomette on a normal sleeper being used as transdorm? On the CZ normal sleeper transdorm we had in August the A-E were taken up by Amtrak employee type people. @Amtrakfflyer


Based on YouTube sightings they seem to regularly be running the Zephyr with a transdorm and one full sleeper these days. Sometimes they will sub a normal sleeper for the transdorm, but that only adds capacity so it is not a big deal.


----------



## UserNameRequired

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Bedroom C in the sleeper and roomette 19 in transition sleeper. Not ideal but we can all squeeze in the bedroom during the day since kids are so young, the roomette was just in case we needed more room to sleep at night. They were very accommodating since coach or even 2 roomettes isn’t feasible with a 4+ and 2+ year old. We needed some floor space we usually put a $5 Walmart blanket on the floor so they can play with toys etc.
> 
> EMY-GBBCar 631 | Room CCar 640 | Room 19


Oh I get it now, the bedroom is in a separate car! Best wishes the rest of the trip can go as well as possible for you all!


----------



## Bonser

joelkfla said:


> The modern equivalent of a bar code, like this:
> View attachment 29898
> 
> What the conductor scans. It's on the home page of the app, for each ticket.


Thank you.


----------



## Widfara

Yesterday I got on the CZ at Sacramento heading to Chicago. I was booked in room 19 in car 640. Train arrived but 640 is a regular sleeper, so no room 19. I got room 11 downstairs. No notification. Both sleepers are booked solid and I'm told both coaches are pretty full. And someone apparently clogged the toilets in the 610 coach. Everyone there has to go next door.


----------



## Katymo

Katymo said:


> I just called Guest Services and the correct story is that they are taking one Sleeper out of service at a time for renovation. Goodness knows they need it. A couple weeks ago I traveled on the CZ from Grand Junction to Chicago with NO working toilets in my car!! I have the accessible bedroom precisely because I need an available toilet!!! I did get a voucher as a form of recompense.
> 
> As the Guest Services agent commented, "We couldn't afford to take all Sleepers out of service at one time."





Amtrak25 said:


> If one sleeper car line was removed from the SW Chief (5 sets), Coast Starlight (4 sets), and Zephyr (6 sets), that was 15 cars out of service after Labor Day. That is in addition to the Empire Builder never getting its 2nd Seattle sleeper back for most of 2022.
> 
> I took the CZ in 2010. Toilets systems break very easily on the D&RGW, so they get a plumbing truck along the way to pump them out, which takes about 15 minutes. Their hydraulic systems do not like high elevations.


That usually happens, but not on my trip!!! The car attendant said they tried to get a pumper at several stations, but none were available. You'd think that in Denver with the long stop, they could have gotten a pumper, but they didn't!!! 

I accepted a $200. voucher but I should have insisted on more. With mobility problems, it was a real problem to navigate the steps and getting to the next car to use the "facilities".


----------



## Eric in East County

Katymo said:


> That usually happens, but not on my trip!!! The car attendant said they tried to get a pumper at several stations, but none were available. You'd think that in Denver with the long stop, they could have gotten a pumper, but they didn't!!!
> 
> I accepted a $200. voucher but I should have insisted on more. With mobility problems, it was a real problem to navigate the steps and getting to the next car to use the "facilities".


Did the Shower work?


----------



## Katymo

Eric in East County said:


> Did the Shower work?


Yes, it did. The car attendant said that the water from the shower drops directly onto the track bed. 

I may be wrong, but I think some men used the shower as a urinal!!


----------



## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Time to return this thread to discussing "removal of sleepers" from SWC and CZ, and by extension what Sleeping Cars are actually running on these trains, instead of everything else on rails  .

Thank you for you understanding, cooperation and participation.


----------



## zephyr17

Widfara said:


> Yesterday I got on the CZ at Sacramento heading to Chicago. I was booked in room 19 in car 640. Train arrived but 640 is a regular sleeper, so no room 19. I got room 11 downstairs.


I was wondering how they handled things when passengers are booked in transdorms when some consists have them on a given train and some do not, like the CZ or the Builder at present. Now we know, reassigned at boarding (or more likely when the SCA gets the manifest).

I do not think ARROW really can handle having differing consists on different days, even if it could with relative ease and I am virtually certain it would not be able to handle different car types running in the same car line number. 5/6's 40 car line is related to a transdorm car. If they were to vary that in the system, it'd have to be with a different car line number. Like 6(1) with a 640, 6(2) a 632, 6(3) a 640, etc.

You weren't notified because as far the system was concerned, your reservation was and remained entirely unchanged. The system never saw your reassignment, it was handled entirely manually. It had to be. I wonder if they have a standard cheat sheet cross reference, like 19=11, or if each crew just wings it? Neither would surprise me. As I think about it, downstairs makes it it easy, typically they'd sell 4 revenue roomettes in a transdorm and there are 4 downstairs in a standard sleeper.

Yet another reason to always try for the "base" sleeper until Amtrak gets their equipment management act together, if ever.


----------



## PeeweeTM

On my trip from Fullerton to Chicago last week, I heared a night shift conductor complaining to a sleeping car attendant, that some staff had self re-assigned rooms in the transdorm before the passengers came on board and didn't update the manifest. 
So the conductor woke up a passenger in the early morning...


----------



## Siegmund

Ryan said:


> GDRRiley said:
> Still always confused why amtrak retired the hi levels.





Ryan said:


> For the same reason you see very few 60 year old cars on the road?



At least at one time, there was some some sort of very expensive and invasive "40-year inspection" that was required when a passenger car turned 40 years old. I do not know the details of what it entailed --- but throughout the 80s and early 90s, it was cited as the reason why the Heritage Fleet absolutely positively must be replaced before circa 1995. We were told at the time that keeping any Hi-Levels in the west and any Heritage Sleepers in the east, no matter how badly they were needed, was a non-starter. (And then some exceptions needed made for a handful of Heritage diners and sleepers - at what cost, I do not know.)

I never heard about a change to this particular regulation. But apparently there was one... because Amfleet and Superliner I sailed right past 40 years without anybody batting an eye. I had been expecting to hear about a crisis, and a huge equipment order, circa 2010, that didn't happen.

The car example is interesting. In general automobiles are subject to few-if-any maintenance requirements; even the legal things on the books of the "must have working turn signals" variety don't get routinely enforced until a cop pulls you over months or years after the bulb burns out. And a lot of cars have lifespans of only 10ish years. 
Rail equipment has a fair bit of mandatory maintenance, and often survives several decades.
Airplanes have some extreme maintenance requirements (every nut and bolt examined once a year, and planes are often out of service for some weeks if issues are detected during the annual inspection) --- and many tens of thousands of airplanes built in the 50s and 60s still fly today, and sell for more now than they were worth new.


----------



## n3rdg1rl

zephyr17 said:


> 21/22, 421/422. No second sleeper, no transdorm 30 car line should be safe.


I'm looking at my reservation for January on the 21 and 22 and I'm in 31 on both of them and have been since I made the reservation in July. Should I call them? I'm kinda freaking out now.


----------



## zephyr17

n3rdg1rl said:


> I'm looking at my reservation for January on the 21 and 22 and I'm in 31 on both of them and have been since I made the reservation in July. Should I call them? I'm kinda freaking out now.


Well, I know 421/422's through sleeper is the 30 car line and it runs a 30 car line on the days it is just 21/22. Maybe someone closer that physically observes the Eaglette's operation can chime in. Perhaps they added a 31 car line because 2 and 22 so often misconnect now.

In lieu of more information I have to go with my advice to stick to the "base" sleeper if at all possible.


----------



## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> Well, I know 421/422's through sleeper is the 30 car line and it runs a 30 car line on the days it is just 21/22. Maybe someone closer that physically observes the Eaglette's operation can chime in. Perhaps they added a 31 car line because 2 and 22 so often misconnect now.
> 
> In lieu of more information I have to go with my advice to stick to the "base" sleeper if at all possible.


I would NOT Wait to call Amtrak and see if you can get into the 30 Car since there is only 1 Sleeper on 21/22 between SAS and CHI even on the 421/422 Days !

Just this past week the connection in SAS was missed Twice ( I was on the #2/#422 on 10/11) and Bustitutions were done between SAS and DAL with the 422 Passengers going North of Longview Bused to Longview chasing the #22.

The protect Sleeper and Coach that is kept in San Antonio is hooked to the #22, with the 422 Sleeper and Coach cut out before #2 goes on to NOL when Missed connections occur, and cut out in SAS upon #21s return from CHI.

There is no Transdorm on 21/22 so the Crew takes 4 of the Rooms(sometimes its #11-#14 Downstairs), and the Train is mostly SOLD OUT on the 3 days a Week 421/422!

NOTE: The #2/#422 of Sun 10/16 was in a Service Disruption in Western Arizona as of 11:45AM CDT with No Information as to why??

Update: Now 6+ Hours Late out of Maricopa but on the move!


----------



## kangforpres

This happen to me too, had the Family bedroom on Train 6. I called and was able to get 2 roomettes instead of coach and a little refund for price difference

Is this happening because they are finally refurbishing the Viewliner fleet and are pulling cars out of service?


----------



## zephyr17

kangforpres said:


> This happen to me too, had the Family bedroom on Train 6. I called and was able to get 2 roomettes instead of coach and a little refund for price difference
> 
> Is this happening because they are finally refurbishing the Viewliner fleet and are pulling cars out of service?


It's happening because they mothballed a good part of the fleet when COVID struck and they dropped to triweekly, and they laid off too many people for COVID, both in maintenance and OBS forces, and a lot of them did not come back when recalled.

They can't staff the cars, and don't have the maintenance personnel to do the routine maintenance and inspections to get all the mothballed cars back into service. Their genius equipment management people only discovered the shortage when they went from triweekly back to daily and discovered they did not have enough operational cars to run the same consists as pre-COVID. Or staff to do so. So they started cutting cars, but only after they already released the inventory in them to the reservation system and had sold space to people in cars that would not run. Hence downgrades and cancellations. In Amtrak's long and storied history of colossal screw ups, this mess is the clear winner. Until now they could at least deliver what they sold, with the exception of a cars that very occasionally were unexpectedly bad ordered just before a departure. What is happening now is a systematic and spectacular FUBAR. 

The Superliner refurbishments have nothing to do with it. There is only one of the cosmetically refurbished sleepers (at a budget of about $62K/car, the refurbishment can only be cosmetic) apparently in service. They can't get the cars inspected or maintained, let alone refurbish them.


----------



## Rasputin

zephyr17 said:


> The Superliner refurbishments have nothing to do with it. There is only one of the cosmetically refurbished sleepers (at a budget of about $62K/car, the refurbishment can only be cosmetic) apparently in service. They can't get the cars inspected or maintained, let alone refurbish them.


But of course the refurbishment of the sleeping cars offers a convenient and rational-sounding excuse to make it appear like these cancellations are part of Amtrak's plan to provide enhanced service.


----------



## west point

Woud like to have a same day count of apparent operative super liners at WAS, CHI, NOL, LAX. EMY, and SEA. probably not feasible ? + SAS


----------



## 01piglet_patinas

joelkfla said:


> The modern equivalent of a bar code, like this:
> View attachment 29898
> 
> What the conductor scans. It's on the home page of the app, for each ticket.


Thanks - it stands for Quick Response.


----------



## Way2Kewl

n3rdg1rl said:


> I'm looking at my reservation for January on the 21 and 22 and I'm in 31 on both of them and have been since I made the reservation in July. Should I call them? I'm kinda freaking out now.


For your evaluation... I too am booked in car 2131 next month (DAL>SAS). 
Here is a view of my previous 2 bookings on Train 21. I was also placed in car 2131 even though they were only running one sleeper. All went well on those trips.


----------



## zephyr17

Way2Kewl said:


> For your evaluation... I too am booked in car 2131 next month (DAL>SAS).
> Here is a view of my previous 2 bookings on Train 21. I was also placed in car 2131 even though they were only running one sleeper. All went well on those trips.


Well, it looks like the they've changed the "base" sleeper on 21/22 to the 31 car line, like the CZ. Which is funny considering it looks like it is still 30 for 421/422.

Mea culpa, current reports from the field always trump older reports and inferences.

I wonder if this means they are laying groundwork to run both SAS and LAX sleepers on the 421/422 days. I notice that the last trip slated for November 2022 in the 30 car line is in 422 despite only being between SAS and DAL.


----------



## Way2Kewl

Hi n3rdg1rl,

With regard to “Sleeper Removal” discussion concerning Amtrak Car 2131… for further evaluation...

Amtrak 21 stop filmed at Mineola Texas captured 2 months ago and appears to still be running only 1 sleeper.
It was numbered 2131. (see video at 0:41 or 1:09 for validation).

Reference: YouTube video "2022-08-30a Amtrak #21 Texas Eagle Westbound"


----------



## n3rdg1rl

Way2Kewl said:


> Hi n3rdg1rl,
> 
> With regard to “Sleeper Removal” discussion concerning Amtrak Car 2131… for further evaluation...
> 
> Amtrak 21 stop filmed at Mineola Texas captured 2 months ago and appears to still be running only 1 sleeper.
> It was numbered 2131. (see video at 0:41 or 1:09 for validation).
> 
> Reference: YouTube video "2022-08-30a Amtrak #21 Texas Eagle Westbound"


Thank you so much for the visual confirmation. I appreciate it!


----------



## Steve4031

I just booked 1431 for 12/26. Room 12 lax to Seattle. Is 1431 the base sleeper on this train or is 1430. I am hopefully thinking I am safe.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Steve4031 said:


> I just booked 1431 for 12/26. Room 12 lax to Seattle. Is 1431 the base sleeper on this train or is 1430. I am hopefully thinking I am safe.


1430 is the base. But the starlight has been running with a 1431 car many months. I woudln’t be too worried..


----------



## zephyr17

Steve4031 said:


> I just booked 1431 for 12/26. Room 12 lax to Seattle. Is 1431 the base sleeper on this train or is 1430. I am hopefully thinking I am safe.


The 30 car line is the base sleeper on the Starlight.

The Starlight is the only western Superliner train that had multiple sleepers assigned that has _not_ so far gotten hit with the sleeper removals through this, starting in late spring. First, the Builder, then the SW Chief, then the CZ, all got hit in turn. You can interpret this as the Starlight being safe and immune, or that it is due for it. Personally, until this definitively blows over, I would treat any non-base sleeper as potentially endangered.

The only train that had not been physically running for months with its second sleeper before was pulled was the Builder. It never started running when it was scheduled to. Both the SW Chief and the Builder had been running theirs before they got yanked.


----------



## trimetbusfan

zephyr17 said:


> The 30 car line is the base sleeper on the Starlight.
> 
> The Starlight is about the only western Superliner train that never got hit with sleeper removals throughout this. First, the Builder, then the SW Chief, them the CZ all got hit in turn. You can interpret this as the Starlight is immune, or, on the other hand, that it is due. Personally, until this definitively blows over, I would treat any non-base sleeper as potentially endangered.


Actually there was some reports of it in 2021, but not this year. A few on Facebook were in the 32 car and then Amtrak decided to pull that car from the consist.

The starlight is a popular train, I can’t see it running with just one sleeper. Maybe one sleeper + a transdorm, but nothing less than that.


----------



## zephyr17

trimetbusfan said:


> The starlight is a popular train,


So is the CZ. I do not think that makes it in any way immune. I still wouldn't trust any but the base sleepers anywhere until I see definitive signs this is over. None of this makes sense seen from a purely capacity and demand viewpoint.

Better safe than sorry is my motto.


----------



## trimetbusfan

zephyr17 said:


> So is the CZ. I do not think that makes it in any way immune. I still wouldn't trust any but the base sleepers anywhere until I see definitive signs this is over. None of this makes sense seen from a purely capacity and demand viewpoint.
> 
> Better safe than sorry is my motto.


for sure. But the starlight also runs with more OBS. The starlight has a dedicated Business class attendant, and their dining car seems to be staffed better than the zephyr. Therefore they would have less roomettes they can sell.

Honestly, I am a little concerned that the 31 car might get pulled at some point, just because I went into my local Amtrak station recently and was going to book a trip on #14 for January. Specifically asked the attendant to go on the manifest and place me in a room of my choice. He said he could only find a 1430 car. Seemed very confused that there wasn’t a 1431 or 1432 car. (I didn’t ask him if there was a transdorm car, which would have been 1440). I’m not sure if that was just a glitch in his computer or if they are actually planning on running the consist like that. I guess we’ll see.
(To make things more confusing, I just tried to book a dummy reservation on the app, and it says there are still 7 bedrooms on this train. That means they have to be running more than 1 full sleeper). Guess we’ll just have to wait and see.


----------



## Steve4031

Well, I can only hope. I appreciate the answers.


----------



## zephyr17

trimetbusfan said:


> He said he could only find a 1430 car. Seemed very confused that there wasn’t a 1431 or 1432 car.


Hopefully, if they pull cars, they'll do it before they release inventory for sale.

Maybe Amtrak has finally begun to restrict sales inventory until they are certain they are going to run enough equipment to support it, as they should have from the start. Maybe they pulled cars out of reservation inventory early enough so bookings were still low enough that any affected passengers could be moved to the base sleeper without downgrading.

In other words, perhaps they started to actually plan.

It is possible they are intending to still run a 31 and maybe a 32, but withdrew them from inventory until they are sure. 

Even before COVID the 32 car line really only ran in peak periods, summer and holidays. It usually wasn't there in the winter.


----------



## Jack Davis

zephyr17 said:


> So is the CZ. I do not think that makes it in any way immune. I still wouldn't trust any but the base sleepers anywhere until I see definitive signs this is over. None of this makes sense seen from a purely capacity and demand viewpoint.
> 
> Better safe than sorry is my motto.


Working up to Thanksgiving Eve, travel business is usually brisk. Then working up to Christmas and New Years, the same. Then in January the travel business drops way off. THAT'S when the cars should be pulled for refurbishment.


----------



## daybeers

Jack Davis said:


> THAT'S when the cars should be pulled for refurbishment.


Common sense just hasn't been common at Amtrak for several years now.


----------



## jis

Jack Davis said:


> Working up to Thanksgiving Eve, travel business is usually brisk. Then working up to Christmas and New Years, the same. Then in January the travel business drops way off. THAT'S when the cars should be pulled for refurbishment.


That is how it is done in normal times, but at present there is a shortage of staff to do even regular regulation required inspections on otherwise roadworthy cars, before they can be used in service. That is what is causing a lot of discruptions of this sort.


----------



## zephyr17

Jack Davis said:


> Then in January the travel business drops way off. THAT'S when the cars should be pulled for refurbishment.


I doubt sleepers are getting pulled off for refurbishment.

They are having enough problems just keeping the currently operational fleet inspected and maintained and maybe, just maybe, getting some of the cars they stupidly mothballed at the beginning of COVID serviced, inspected, and back on the road.

The issues have nothing to do with refurbishment, but just keeping enough of the fleet in service to maintain at least minimum sleepers on every train that is supposed to have them. The problem is much more thoroughgoing and severe than wanting to refurbish some cars and having bad timing. Amtrak's fleet management is gigantic and systemic Charlie Foxtrot.


----------



## Way2Kewl

n3rdg1rl said:


> I'm looking at my reservation for January on the 21 and 22 and I'm in 31 on both of them and have been since I made the reservation in July. Should I call them? I'm kinda freaking out now.



Hi n3rdg1rl,
With regard to “Sleeper Removal” discussion concerning Amtrak Car #2131… 
I can confirm Eagle 21 ran one sleeper car #2131 last Friday. (DAL > SAS). 
(Door sign said #2230 ;-)


----------



## Bob Dylan

Way2Kewl said:


> Hi n3rdg1rl,
> With regard to “Sleeper Removal” discussion concerning Amtrak Car #2131…
> I can confirm Eagle 21 ran one sleeper car #2131 last Friday. (DAL > SAS).
> (Door sign said #2230 ;-)


That is now the Norm on the #21/#22/#421/#422 Consist.


----------



## Lonnie

We're going to be in car 830 of the EB Seattle to Chicago Dec 17-19. What are the chances our sleeper car won't be there? Is the same thing happening on the LSL?


----------



## trimetbusfan

Lonnie said:


> We're going to be in car 830 of the EB Seattle to Chicago Dec 17-19. What are the chances our sleeper car won't be there? Is the same thing happening on the LSL?


The 830 car is supposed to be the base so I would not worry too much...


----------



## zephyr17

Lonnie said:


> We're going to be in car 830 of the EB Seattle to Chicago Dec 17-19. What are the chances our sleeper car won't be there? Is the same thing happening on the LSL?


It just looks like the sole sleeper changed car line number for some reason from 30 to 31 on the Eagle. No car was apparently removed.

The LSL car lines are 11 and 12 on the New York section and have been for awhile. I am in 4911 on Saturday, BTW.

The 30 is still the base sleeper car line for 7/8. It is as much of a sure thing as there can be.


----------



## joelkfla

On RPA webinar, Amtrak VP said reduced capacity on LD trains would continue thru 2023.


----------



## lordsigma

joelkfla said:


> On RPA webinar, Amtrak VP said reduced capacity on LD trains would continue thru 2023.


And specifically - he said the expectation is 11% below pre pandemic capacity on the LD network for FY23.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

lordsigma said:


> And specifically - he said the expectation is 11% below pre pandemic capacity on the LD network for FY23


So probably 25 percent or status quo.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> And specifically - he said the expectation is 11% below pre pandemic capacity on the LD network for FY23.


Well, the equipment lost in derailments is bound to have some effect in addition to any delays in getting the mothballed stuff out on the road.


----------



## lordsigma

AmtrakFlyer said:


> So probably 25 percent or status quo.


Reduced capacity for the year doesn't mean we'll have the current consists on every train for the whole year.


----------



## Steve4031

I can understand the issue caused by equipment damaged in both derailments. However, all of those cars that could have been serviced during Covid weren't because Amtrak laid those employees off to cut costs is a bigger cause of the current shortage.


----------



## lordsigma

Steve4031 said:


> I can understand the issue caused by equipment damaged in both derailments. However, all of those cars that could have been serviced during Covid weren't because Amtrak laid those employees off to cut costs is a bigger cause of the current shortage.


That's a factor but also COVID resulted in a lot of additional retirements/turnovers beyond just the pandemic furloughs. When they recalled people they were initially as you can recall able to resume daily service relatively quickly - but the labor situation continued to decline even with the return of furloughed workers with additional retirements.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> That's a factor but also COVID resulted in a lot of additional retirements/turnovers beyond just the pandemic furloughs. When they recalled people they were initially as you can recall able to resume daily service relatively quickly - but the labor situation continued to decline even with the return of furloughed workers with additional retirements.


The "I won't take this **** anymore. I quit/retire" phenomenon has been very real across the board. Backfilling those in a skilled job area inevitably takes time, even more so when the first skilled jobs you have to fill are in your HR department so as to be able to fill the other skilled jobs. Quite a cascade effect there. But I digress....


----------



## joelkfla

lordsigma said:


> And specifically - he said the expectation is 11% below pre pandemic capacity on the LD network for FY23.


As I recall it, when Jim Mathews asked whether he meant FY 23 or calendar year, the VP gave a fuzzy answer, I think saying he wasn't sure but it would probably be until the end of the calendar year. It was kind of hard to hear, as he was hemming and hawing through it.


----------



## lordsigma

Today - 5(18) running with a 532 sleeping car again and 3(18) running with a 331 sleeping car per Facebook observations and then verified myself using Galesburg/Fort Madison VF cams.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

The second sleepers on both the CZ and SWC are removed effective today again. Only ran for 10 days or so over Thanksgiving. I don’t know what other proof we need, they have the equipment, it ran over the summer and again this past week. My family still can’t get rooms together in the same sleeper 12/19 on the CZ since they cut our car and family bedroom reservation.

Mark my word they will probably add the second sleepers back a week before Christmas with no notice just like they did at Thanksgiving. That doesn’t help the people that were already booked in them (and then canceled by Amtrak) or people trying to book holiday travel now. This company is just floundering in apathy and incompetence.

They’re literally trying to act like allegiant or frontier and keep a 98 percent load factor, to put in airline terms. Browse the website for December/January these trains are SOLD OUT.


----------



## lordsigma

AmtrakFlyer said:


> The second sleepers on both the CZ and SWC are removed effective today again. Only ran for 10 days or so over Thanksgiving. I don’t know what other proof we need, they have the equipment, it ran over the summer and again this past week. My family still can’t get rooms together in the same sleeper 12/19 on the CZ since they cut our car and family bedroom reservation.
> 
> Mark my word they will probably add the second sleepers back a week before Christmas with no notice just like they did at Thanksgiving. That doesn’t help the people that were already booked in them (and then canceled by Amtrak) or people trying to book holiday travel now. This company is just floundering in apathy and incompetence.
> 
> They’re literally trying to act like allegiant or frontier and keep a 98 percent load factor, to put in airline terms. Browse the website for December/January these trains are SOLD OUT.


It's unlikely these are day by day decisions. It's likely when they pulled sleepers back in the late summer or whenever it was that they kept them in inventory for Thanksgiving with the intention to add cars for those dates (and didn't cancel people booked on those dates.) The extra sleepers appeared to be well patronized which would indicate this wasn't a last minute decision to add them and sell the space. While I'd agree with concerns about inventory and in getting things resolved so people don't have to be worry about being dropped I don't think it's happening on quite that much of a day to day basis - I think they are making seasonal decisions on whether staffing and equipment can meet the planned consists for the upcoming couple months. If it's determined they cannot and trains are oversold that's when people are getting downgraded.


----------



## trimetbusfan

lordsigma said:


> It's unlikely these are day by day decisions. It's likely when they pulled sleepers back in the late summer or whenever it was that they kept them in inventory for Thanksgiving with the intention to add cars for those dates (and didn't cancel people booked on those dates.) The extra sleepers appeared to be well patronized which would indicate this wasn't a last minute decision to add them and sell the space. While I'd agree with concerns about inventory and in getting things resolved so people don't have to be worry about being dropped I don't think it's happening on quite that much of a day to day basis - I think they are making seasonal decisions on whether staffing and equipment can meet the planned consists for the upcoming couple months. If it's determined they cannot and trains are oversold that's when people are getting downgraded.


I’m not sure that they have the staff. When riding over the summer the staff seemed burnt out. The on the zephyr there were several staffing issues.

For one, there was no 40 car attendant. The 32 car attendant had to do the work of both cars. (Which were both sold out).

Then, no Cafe car LSA from Chicago to Denver.

Fianlly, the dining car LSA ended up getting switched out mid route (at around Salt Lake City). 

From an operational standpoint, it seems much better to plan on running the train without the extra cars and then add on those cars once they confirm they have the staff. I can’t imagine how hard it would be on the crews if that’s how they were normally running all summer.


----------



## Explore

Oh joy! I was assigned car 532 from CHI to EMY in early February....

Should I call in from time to time to see if space in one of the other two sleepers has opened up?


----------



## trimetbusfan

Explore said:


> Oh joy! I was assigned car 532 from CHI to EMY in early February....
> 
> Should I call in from time to time to see if space in one of the other two sleepers has opened up?


Doesn't hurt. Honestly, this far out there might still be space in one of the other cars.


----------



## zephyr17

Explore said:


> Oh joy! I was assigned car 532 from CHI to EMY in early February....
> 
> Should I call in from time to time to see if space in one of the other two sleepers has opened up?


I'd call. I won't trust that I'd keep my space in any non-base sleeper until Amtrak has managed not to yank the rug out from under sleeper passengers for at least a year.

Since I am a bit picky about roomette location, I always call to make the reservation in the first place. I would have asked to be moved out of the 32 car before completing the transaction.


----------



## Explore

It was auto-assigned, booking through the app.


----------



## trimetbusfan

Explore said:


> It was auto-assigned, booking through the app.


Your room assignment is always auto-assigned when you book online or thru the app. When you call to book your reservation, you often are able to choose which room you want.


----------



## zephyr17

Explore said:


> It was auto-assigned, booking through the app.


You can call and try to change it to the 31 car. If a roomette is available in the 31 car an experienced agent will be able to do it while holding your price. If the agent says it will change the price, you reached an inexperienced agent. Either ask for a supervisor or politely end the call and call back in hopes of getting a better agent (sometimes called playing agent roulette).


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

Or just ask to be transferred to Guest relations that will be happy to change the reservation. They are well versed on the situation and I’m sure they would rather have you call now and prevent them from having to deal with you being disgruntled and or disappointed later.


----------



## elaineprescott

We're on the SWC on Jan 26 with two roomettes 7 & 8 in car 330. If there's only one sleeper, will it be 330?


----------



## zephyr17

elaineprescott said:


> We're on the SWC on Jan 26 with two roomettes 7 & 8 in car 330. If there's only one sleeper, will it be 330?


Yes


----------



## lordsigma

elaineprescott said:


> We're on the SWC on Jan 26 with two roomettes 7 & 8 in car 330. If there's only one sleeper, will it be 330?


There’s technically a second sleeper but it’s a transition type so it has only roomettes and one accessible bedroom - no regular bedrooms and no family room. That’s likely sold as the 340 car.


----------



## capltd29

Hello All,

I just booked a trip from RVR-BOS-EMY with a night in Boston and getting to ride the NEC north of NYP and the Boston section of the LSL for the first time. We are scheduled to leave Chicago for EMY on 1/6


My question involves train #5 sleepers. It says I am in car 532, room 11 which is a lower level room. Historically, I thought 532 would have been the first sleeper on the train (out of 3). It's been a while since I rode the CZ so I could be wrong. From videos on YouTube and FB I have been seeing lately that 5 and 6 are running with a Trans Sleeper and a single full sleeping car. 

Have they changed the numbering of the sleepers? Room 11 doesn't exist in a trans dorm car so it would have to be in a regular sleeper. My concern is the possibility that this room doesn't exist and I'll be called a week beforehand and told that we are actually in coach (which there zero chance I would do for a trip of thay length). The only reason I'm doing this trip is because we were supposed to ride the Zephyr in September but it was cancelled due to the strike (that didn't even happen) so if I can't ride the Zephyr in a sleeper I just won't do the trip. 

Are my concerns warranted? Should I call Amtrak and just ask which car that is? Are they adding another sleeper in January?

Hope my question makes sense. I just don't trust the current Amtrak.


----------



## zephyr17

The 32 car line on the Zephyr is a standard sleeper. The 40 car line is the transdorm on the Zephyr, although a regular sleeper has been reportedly running in the 40 car line in some Zephyr consists.

The Zephyr is running with sleepers forward like other Superliners for many years now. If 32 is present the consist will be:
(Baggage, if present)
40
32
31
Diner

If the 32 isn't present, the consist would be 
40
31
Diner

If the transdorm 40 car line isn't running, it'll be
31
Diner

Room 11 will always exist in a Zephyr 32 car. The real issue is whether or not the 32 car itself will exist. It is not the "base" sleeper (31 is) and over the last year Amtrak has pulled the non-base sleeper on several trains, including the Zephyr, having already sold inventory in them.

So you could be called a week before and be told your room doesn't exist because the car itself doesn't exist. Keep checking your reservation on the app. If the QR code disappears, it likely means the 32 car had disappeared. In that event call immediately, so as to have the best chance at any open space in the 31 or 40 cars. Do not wait for them to call you, likely any available remaining space will already have been taken by then. Better yet, call now and see if you can be rebooked in the 31 car as a precaution.

Given what had happened over this year, I will not trust any booking in a non-base sleeper until Amtrak has gone a full year without pulling this crap.


----------



## Lonnie

trimetbusfan said:


> The 830 car is supposed to be the base so I would not worry too much...


So just for fun, I talked with an agent today, the 10th, about the chances of the sleeper car not being there in the EB on the 17th. She said we would have been emailed two weeks before travel date if our car was going to be removed.


----------



## Asher

Lonnie said:


> So just for fun, I talked with an agent today, the 10th, about the chances of the sleeper car not being there in the EB on the 17th. She said we would have been emailed two weeks before travel date if our car was going to be removed.


----------



## capltd29

zephyr17 said:


> The 32 car line on the Zephyr is a standard sleeper. The 40 car line is the transdorm on the Zephyr, although a regular sleeper has been reportedly running in the 40 car line in some Zephyr consists.
> 
> The Zephyr is running with sleepers forward like other Superliners for many years now. If 32 is present the consist will be:
> (Baggage, if present)
> 40
> 32
> 31
> Diner
> 
> If the 32 isn't present, the consist would be
> 40
> 31
> Diner
> 
> If the transdorm 40 car line isn't running, it'll be
> 31
> Diner
> 
> Room 11 will always exist in a Zephyr 32 car. The real issue is whether or not the 32 car itself will exist. It is not the "base" sleeper (31 is) and over the last year Amtrak has pulled the non-base sleeper on several trains, including the Zephyr, having already sold inventory in them.
> 
> So you could be called a week before and be told your room doesn't exist because the car itself doesn't exist. Keep checking your reservation on the app. If the QR code disappears, it likely means the 32 car had disappeared. In that event call immediately, so as to have the best chance at any open space in the 31 or 40 cars. Do not wait for them to call you, likely any available remaining space will already have been taken by then. Better yet, call now and see if you can be rebooked in the 31 car as a precaution.
> 
> Given what had happened over this year, I will not trust any booking in a non-base sleeper until Amtrak has gone a full year without pulling this crap


Thanks! Very helpful and consistent with my suspicions. I may call and see if we can be rebooked in the 31 car either in a roomette or a deluxe bedroom.

I dont know how Amtrak sells the rooms. Do they fill up the 31 car and then sell the next car or is it just random? Lol

I guess the other question is if they ever pull the trans dorm and if it would be better to get in the trans dorm if they're selling space.


----------



## zephyr17

capltd29 said:


> Thanks! Very helpful and consistent with my suspicions. I may call and see if we can be rebooked in the 31 car either in a roomette or a deluxe bedroom.
> 
> I dont know how Amtrak sells the rooms. Do they fill up the 31 car and then sell the next car or is it just random? Lol
> 
> I guess the other question is if they ever pull the trans dorm and if it would be better to get in the trans dorm if they're selling space.


They've pulled transdorms, although I haven't heard reports of people being cancelled out of transdorms, when they've pulled them. Several trains that used to run with transdorms don't now. They appear not to have sold space in them, though. The 40 is going to be safer than the 32, but not as safe as 31.

Amtrak seems to spread passengers out between cars as they sell, except for the transdorm, but not sure. They usually sell the transdorm last.


----------



## zephyr17

Lonnie said:


> She said we would have been emailed two weeks before travel date if our car was going to be removed.


Note they do not do it when they make the decision to pull the car, but wait until just 2 weeks before departure to notify the passengers they've pulled a car. There's some customer oriented service, all right.

Anyone in a non-base sleeper should be checking the app regularly. If the QR code disappears, it typically means they've pulled the car. This can happen weeks or months before departure and long before they get around to notifying you. By checking regularly, you optimize the chance of getting any remaining open space.

The 30 car line is the base sleeper for the Seattle section of the Builder and is as safe as is possible. 830 will run as long as any sleepers at all.


----------



## joelkfla

zephyr17 said:


> They've pulled transdorms, although I haven't heard reports of people being cancelled out of transdorms, when they've pulled them. Several trains that used to run with transdorms don't now. They appear not to have sold space in them, though. The 40 is going to be safer than the 32, but not as safe as 31.
> 
> Amtrak seems to spread passengers out between cars as they sell, except for the transdorm, but not sure. They usually sell the transdorm last.


Is this strictly an equipment shortage issue? Doesn't seem like running a transdorm would require any extra OBS, especially if they restricted it to crew use only.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Is this strictly an equipment shortage issue? Doesn't seem like running a transdorm would require any extra OBS, especially if they restricted it to crew use only.


There is a Transdorm shortage of Amtrak's own making. I order to save on maintenance they laced a very significant number of them in Mothballs. The plan is to bring them all out of there over the next couple of years.


----------



## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> Is this strictly an equipment shortage issue? Doesn't seem like running a transdorm would require any extra OBS, especially if they restricted it to crew use only.


Amtrak seldom ever assigned a dedicated SCA to transdorms they sold revenue space in. They were covered by the SCA in the adjacent regular sleeper.

That is one of the reasons I disliked transdorms, they were typically the "forgotten car".


----------



## mgkeihl

Asher said:


>


 I made reservations on the Empire Builder for April 2023 and got on the 7 and 831's. After reading this I called an agent and she got me on the 7 and 830's for no price change. She did try and be encouraging and tell me that it would be fine, but chatted her up a little and she admitted that between hiring and car conditions that it had been hard to keep the consist up. So, now am eagerly looking forward to my second round trip from Rochester NY to Seattle and hopefully with no dreaded downgrade emails to worry about!!!


----------



## Barb Stout

Do the transdorms have an H room?


----------



## Rasputin

Barb Stout said:


> Do the transdorms have an H room?


It appears from this discussion that some transition sleepers have an H room and some do not. Perhaps someone has an update:






transition sleeper


Good evening, Anyone has ''de facto'' experience or a diagram of the Superliner's Transition sleepers ? I'm offered atwo roomettes in one of those on SL...don't know about the layout....Amk's agent didn't either ( Why am I not surprised ??? ) I understand they're all roomettes configurations...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## trimetbusfan

Barb Stout said:


> Do the transdorms have an H room?


During a trip over this summer, there was someone occupying the H room in the transform on the 540 car.


----------



## Bob Dylan

trimetbusfan said:


> During a trip over this summer, there was someone occupying the H room in the transform on the 540 car.


Most of the times I've been in the Transdorm, one of the Crew Occupied the H Room.

I've never seen a paying Passenger in this room, but it's a good idea to sell it rather than have it sit empty.( there's plenty of Room in the Crew Portion of the Transdorm with the Smaller Crews that Amtrak is using on the Superliner Trains!)


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak seldom ever assigned a dedicated SCA to transdorms they sold revenue space in. They were covered by the SCA in the adjacent regular sleeper.
> 
> That is one of the reasons I disliked transdorms, they were typically the "forgotten car".


When I was on the Chief earlier this year in October they did have two SCAs even though the second sleeper was a transdorm. Lately, assuming because of the car shortage, they've been putting every transdorm room not occupied by a crew member into revenue sale. The transdorm actually has more roomettes than a regular superliner sleeper but of course lacks the bedrooms/family bedroom.


----------



## capltd29

Just as an update. I managed to get switched from 532 to 540. All the roomettes were sold out in 531 and Bedrooms were an extra 900 bucks, so here's hoping for the best!


----------



## MarkInAustin

We have a family br reservation from Austin to LA on July 17.
Train 421 car 21*30* Room 15

and the return on July 23
Train 422 car 22*30 *Room 15

I assume that is the same car and room in each direction. Has there been a cancellation history on this car?


----------



## lordsigma

capltd29 said:


> Just as an update. I managed to get switched from 532 to 540. All the roomettes were sold out in 531 and Bedrooms were an extra 900 bucks, so here's hoping for the best!


We should know very soon if the 532 sleeper is coming back as planned. Based on inventory availability on the website and multiple reports here it sounds like the its supposed to come back sometime between now and the first week of January (as one person here had a reservation in 532 for 1/6.) We should know by end of next week if they're going to drop the car as that would be two weeks. If it still is showing up by the end of next week then the 532 car is likely really coming back. If the car does show up in the consist and we see it then it's probably safe to book at least for the next couple winter months (as they usually do consist shifts seasonally and sometimes for holidays - so they wouldn't pull it between now and spring.)


----------



## Shortline

Admittedly I haven't poured through all 18 pages, but I am curious, they are pulling plenty of sleepers out, I assume for that refresh they've been talking about-But have any been returned after yet? I've seen the refreshed coaches, but not yet seen a sleeper or SSL.


----------



## jis

Shortline said:


> Admittedly I haven't poured through all 18 pages, but I am curious, they are pulling plenty of sleepers out, I assume for that refresh they've been talking about-But have any been returned after yet? I've seen the refreshed coaches, but not yet seen a sleeper or SSL.


Sleepers are supposed to enter the refurbishment work in January. They are not there yet. SSLs and Diners come after that as far as I understand.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> We should know very soon if the 532 sleeper is coming back as planned. Based on inventory availability on the website and multiple reports here it sounds like the its supposed to come back sometime between now and the first week of January (as one person here had a reservation in 532 for 1/6.) We should know by end of next week if they're going to drop the car as that would be two weeks. If it still is showing up by the end of next week then the 532 car is likely really coming back. If the car does show up in the consist and we see it then it's probably safe to book at least for the next couple winter months (as they usually do consist shifts seasonally and sometimes for holidays - so they wouldn't pull it between now and spring.)


At this point, given their recent track record, I would not trust Amtrak's equipment planning as far as I can throw them.

When they have gone a full year of consistently running sleepers they have sold space in, I'll change my mind. By my reckoning that will be October 2023.

Until then I will make sure any bookings are in the base sleeper or at least the transdorm and advise others to do so as well.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> At this point, given their recent track record, I would not trust Amtrak's equipment planning as far as I can throw them.
> 
> When they have gone a full year of consistently running sleepers they have sold space in, I'll change my mind. By my reckoning that will be October 2023.
> 
> Until then I will make sure any bookings are in the base sleeper or at least the transdorm and advise others to do so as well.


Understand where you’re coming from it’s been frustrating. Not saying you should do anything different - by all means. But this wasn’t some cynical cost cutting move - it was operations not being able to support planned and sold capacity. Everyone’s hoping (I think including Amtrak) that they hit rock bottom in the fall with the 532 sleeper drop on the zephyr and some of the midwest corridor cuts and are working their way back from there. Obviously we’ll have to see how it plays out and I can’t blame anyone for being cautious. I’d probably personally be fine with a 532 reservation at least in the short term once we actually see it come back for more than a holiday period. I wouldn’t want to have a reservation before that however.


----------



## lordsigma

The big factors are going to be: OBS staffing, shop staffing, working through overhauls AND normal shop repairs on a consistent basis. Another big important one is getting the Venture cars deployed in the Midwest which can indirectly affect other Amtrak services. The sooner the Venture cars are running consistently the better it’s going to be for other Amtrak service including long distance.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> But this wasn’t some cynical cost cutting move - it was operations not being able to support planned and sold capacity.


I know that. Even Gardner and Coscia would not do this deliberately. It speaks to their utter incompetence, though.

It was poor planning and management incompetence. They never should have released space in a very uncertain situation until they were confident they'd have the staff and equipment to support it. They should have sold just minimum consists until the situation was in hand. By fall 2021/winter 2022 they were well aware of both the self-inflicted equipment shortages, the COVID staff loses had already happened and they merrily went ahead with their happy assumptions.

To compound this, they also did not notify affected passengers until just a couple weeks before departure when the decision to remove the cars had been made weeks or even months prior. Even with the latest removal of cars from the CZ in September they still were not notifying people when they took the action. So there is a major customer service failure layered on top of incompetent planning.

The same management team that stumbled into this massive Charlie Foxtrot is still in place. I'll believe it when they have a established a track record of being able to provide what they've sold consistently for a year.


----------



## Eric in East County

zephyr17 said:


> It was poor planning and management incompetence. They never should have released space in a very uncertain situation until they were confident they'd have the staff and equipment to support it. They should have sold just minimum consists until the situation was in hand. By fall 2021/winter 2022 they were well aware of both the self-inflicted equipment shortages, the COVID staff loses had already happened and they merrily went ahead with their happy assumptions.
> 
> To compound this, they also did not notify affected passengers until just a couple weeks before departure when the decision to remove the cars had been made weeks or even months prior. Even with the latest removal of cars from the CZ in September they still were not notifying people when they took the action. So there is a major customer service failure layered on top of incompetent planning.


The selling of sleeping car accommodations when it was known in advance that they couldn’t be provided is truly reprehensible. Even more reprehensible was the burden this policy placed on those Amtrak employees who had to deal directly with the frustrated, irate customers who'd had their reservations yanked out from under them. It will probably be years before the public’s trust in Amtrak will be fully restored.


----------



## joelkfla

Eric in East County said:


> The selling of sleeping car accommodations when it was known in advance that they couldn’t be provided is truly reprehensible. Even more reprehensible was the burden this policy placed on those Amtrak employees who had to deal directly with the frustrated, irate customers who'd had their reservations yanked out from under them. It will probably be years before the public’s trust in Amtrak will be fully restored.


I don't think they were sold when it was known in advance that they couldn’t be provided. They were sold when Amtrak expected they could be provided, but wasn't sure about it.


----------



## Eric in East County

joelkfla said:


> I don't think they were sold when it was known in advance that they couldn’t be provided. They were sold when Amtrak expected they could be provided, but wasn't sure about it.


We had a bedroom reserved on SWC No. 4 scheduled to depart LAX on June 28. (This reservation had been made and paid for some 6 months earlier.) Two weeks before we were to depart, we contacted Amtrak to confirm the status of our reservations. After first being assured by an agent that our reservations were still good, we were called back almost immediately and told that not only was our bedroom no longer available, but because the train was sold out, we couldn’t be downgraded to lesser accommodations had we wanted them.

A few days later, we called Amtrak and had an agent reserve us bedrooms on the SWC for late September. Within a month, we received the dreaded automated phone message that these reservations couldn’t be honored, either. (We ended up rescheduling our trip to June 2023, this time making sure that our SWC bedrooms were in the “base” sleepers.)

We can sort of forgive Amtrak for not anticipating that, during the busy summer travel season, there might be a shortage of sleeping cars. On the other hand, we can’t excuse Amtrak for selling us bedrooms for September when it must have been obvious that, more than likely, there wouldn’t be enough sleeping cars available to be able to honor our reservations.


----------



## Shanson

We just just got more than two weeks notice on a sleeper change for us on a trip--July 9! CZ eastbound from EMY. Wondering if the car we were booked in is being refurbished during peak travel time, or being loaned to another route?


----------



## zephyr17

Shanson said:


> We just just got more than two weeks notice on a sleeper change for us on a trip--July 9! CZ eastbound from EMY. Wondering if the car we were booked in is being refurbished during peak travel time, or being loaned to another route?


Superliner cars run in a national pool, specific cars are are not assigned to specific trains, so they cannot be "loaned" between trains. The powers that be on decided equipment distribution and the CZ for summer isn't getting what they initially planned for.

Probably not due to refurbishment, probably due the clown show that is the subject of this thread, lack of roadworthy cars and/or lack of staff to staff them.

The silver lining is you were notified well in advance. That may be showing that Amtrak has gotten a marginally more competent at planning.


----------



## lordsigma

Shanson said:


> We just just got more than two weeks notice on a sleeper change for us on a trip--July 9! CZ eastbound from EMY. Wondering if the car we were booked in is being refurbished during peak travel time, or being loaned to another route?



Did your car or room assignment change? What car are you currently assigned to?


----------



## Bob Dylan

MarkInAustin said:


> We have a family br reservation from Austin to LA on July 17.
> Train 421 car 21*30* Room 15
> 
> and the return on July 23
> Train 422 car 22*30 *Room 15
> 
> I assume that is the same car and room in each direction. Has there been a cancellation history on this car?


Since you're in the #421/#422 Sleeper( the Thru Sleeper that's Switched to #1/#2 in San Antonio) you'll be OK.

As you know, the Eaglette currently only runs 1 Sleeper between Chicago and San Antonio, but Amtrak does keep a Protect Sleeper and Coach in San Antonio for the Eaglette just in case.

Hopefully by the time yall ride Traditional Dining will have been returned to the Eaglette(however you'll only have 1 Meal each way between Austin and San Antonio, Dinner on #21, and Breakfast on #22)and the Sightseer Lounge returned to the consist so once again we can call this Train "The Texas Eagle!"


----------



## Hans627

lordsigma said:


> We should know very soon if the 532 sleeper is coming back as planned. Based on inventory availability on the website and multiple reports here it sounds like the its supposed to come back sometime between now and the first week of January (as one person here had a reservation in 532 for 1/6.) We should know by end of next week if they're going to drop the car as that would be two weeks. If it still is showing up by the end of next week then the 532 car is likely really coming back. If the car does show up in the consist and we see it then it's probably safe to book at least for the next couple winter months (as they usually do consist shifts seasonally and sometimes for holidays - so they wouldn't pull it between now and spring.)


Please excuse my ignorance but what is a 532 Sleeper?

Thanks!


----------



## jis

Hans627 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but what is a 532 Sleeper?
> 
> Thanks!


A Sleeping Car in train 5 with the line number 532. Typically it would be the second Sleeper on that train.


----------



## joelkfla

Hans627 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but what is a 532 Sleeper?
> 
> Thanks!





jis said:


> A Sleeping Car in train 5 with the line number 532. Typically it would be the second Sleeper on that train.


Line number designates the type of car and the position within the train, as opposed to the physical equipment number painted on each car. From a rider's perspective, it's used to assign a car during ticketing.

Line numbers are either 3 or 4 digits. The next to last digit indicates the type of car (e.g., sleeper, coach), and the last digit designates which car within the type. There is no consistency within those digits across the network; they vary by route.

The remaining 1 or 2 leading digits indicate the train number.

Sleeping cars have the line number displayed outside the car door, and also on the door between cars so that passengers can find their way to the correct car. On other car types, line numbers may not be displayed or may be unreliable.


----------



## zephyr17

Hans627 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but what is a 532 Sleeper?
> 
> Thanks!


Cars are assigned "car line" numbers describing the train, placement in that train's consist and, for sleepers, room inventory. The first 2 digits are the train number (leading zeros often not shown), the second, the car line.

So train 5, car 32.

Standard sleepers on most Superliner trains are in the 3x car line. The exception is the Capitol Limited, where they are in the 0x car line, likely to avoid confusion with the train number, the eastbound being train 30.

They are generally numbered sequentially lowest to highest by consist position, the lowest being the sleeper adjacent to the diner.

The lowest sleeper car line on the train will be only sleeper if a given departure has just one sleeper. We have been referring to the lowest car line number for any given train as the "base" sleeper, since if that one was removed there would be no sleepers at all.

On most Superliner trains, the lowest standard sleeper car line is the "30" car line. However, on the California Zephyr, it is the "31" car line. I think the CZ's "30" had been used as the Chicago-Denver cutoff sleeper that has not been operated in several years, but the CZ "30" car line is still reserved for it. In any case, "31" is the lowest sleeper car line used for the Zephyr.

Since over the past year, Amtrak has been cutting sleepers that they have already sold inventory in, the car line number has assumed importance that it had not had before. The car lines above the lowest, the "base", are the ones being removed. So, until the situation stabilizes, space in a non-base sleeper must be considered at risk for cancellation. Personally, I will not consider the situation stabilized until Amtrak has gone a full year without removing cars with sold space. By my reckoning, they'll have to make it to October 2023 without pulling this crap any more.

531 is a base sleeper. 532 is not. Unfortunately, it makes a different under current conditions.

Finally, the car line numbers are virtual. They do not correspond to physical cars. Any Superliner standard sleeper can run in any Superliner standard sleeper car line. Further Superliners run in a national pool.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> If the car does show up in the consist and we see it then it's probably safe to book at least for the next couple winter months (as they usually do consist shifts seasonally and sometimes for holidays - so they wouldn't pull it between now and spring.)


You mean like the creeping removals they did this last summer? With the Builder removals in June, the Chief removals in July, and the Zephyr removals discovered in August effective September?

That was all pretty much during one season, at least by my own reckoning.

I would make no assumptions until it is definitively demonstrated Amtrak has stopped pulling this crap. These were not normal, seasonal consist adjustments.


----------



## jis

zephyr17 said:


> You mean like the creeping removals they did this last summer? With the Builder removals in June, the Chief removals in July, and the Zephyr removals discovered in August effective September?
> 
> That was all pretty much during one season, at least by my own reckoning.
> 
> I would make no assumptions until it is demonstrated Amtrak has stopped pulling this crap. These were not normal, seasonal consist adjustments.


My conjecture about that series of events is that Amtrak had lost their entire fleet planning department over the pandemic and the new lot had a lot of experience managing the fleet on their HO sets, and were learning about full size sets as they went along. Hopefully they are now fully upto speed.


----------



## zephyr17

jis said:


> My conjecture about that series of events is that Amtrak had lost their entire fleet planning department over the pandemic and the new lot had a lot of experience managing the fleet on their HO sets, and were learning about full size sets as they went along. Hopefully they are now fully upto speed.


I hope so to, but, as I've said, I will not trust them until they've gone a year without f, uh, messing up again.

Prior HO experience notwithstanding.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> I hope so to, but, as I've said, I will not trust them until they've gone a year without f, uh, messing up again.
> 
> Prior HO experience notwithstanding.



Don’t blame you. As I said hopefully fall was rock bottom. They have been slowly restoring some of the Midwest stuff they cut in the fall over the last weeks. Hopefully that’s a good sign. But we’ll have to see.


----------



## west point

jis said:


> My conjecture about that series of events is that Amtrak had lost their entire fleet planning department over the pandemic and the new lot had a lot of experience managing the fleet on their HO sets, and were learning about full size sets as they went along. Hopefully they are now fully upto speed.


That seems to be very possible.


----------



## Lonnie

zephyr17 said:


> Note they do not do it when they make the decision to pull the car, but wait until just 2 weeks before departure to notify the passengers they've pulled a car. There's some customer oriented service, all right.
> 
> Anyone in a non-base sleeper should be checking the app regularly. If the QR code disappears, it typically means they've pulled the car. This can happen weeks or months before departure and long before they get around to notifying you. By checking regularly, you optimize the chance of getting any remaining open space.
> 
> The 30 car line is the base sleeper for the Seattle section of the Builder and is as safe as is possible. 830 will run as long as any sleepers at all.


We made it fine onto the EB today, car 830, right on time so far. Got into a conversation with a young SCA who said we had two good engines. He said the new ones that they recently got keep breaking down. At one point if not more, they've had BNSF engines moving the train after one of those breakdowns. 

I think we're just lucky. We had two sunny days in Seattle for the only two full days we were going to be there! The station is gorgeous and there's an art museum on the third floor that Amtrak doesn't let you know about. A sweet old security man came around to tell us about it and was thrilled when we went up to see it.


----------



## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> Cars are assigned "car line" numbers describing the train, placement in that train's consist and, for sleepers, room inventory. The first 2 digits are the train number (leading zeros often not shown), the second, the car line.
> 
> So train 5, car 32.
> 
> Standard sleepers on most Superliner trains are in the 3x car line. The exception is the Capitol Limited, where they are in the 0x car line, likely to avoid confusion with the train number, the eastbound being train 30.
> 
> They are generally numbered sequentially lowest to highest by consist position, the lowest being the sleeper adjacent to the diner.
> 
> The lowest sleeper car line on the train will be only sleeper if a given departure has just one sleeper. We have been referring to the lowest car line number for any given train as the "base" sleeper, since if that one was removed there would be no sleepers at all.
> 
> On most Superliner trains, the lowest standard sleeper car line is the "30" car line. However, on the California Zephyr, it is the "31" car line. I think the CZ's "30" had been used as the Chicago-Denver cutoff sleeper that has not been operated in several years, but the CZ "30" car line is still reserved for it. In any case, "31" is the lowest sleeper car line used for the Zephyr.
> 
> Since over the past year, Amtrak has been cutting sleepers that they have already sold inventory in, the car line number has assumed importance that it had not had before. The car lines above the lowest, the "base", are the ones being removed. So, until the situation stabilizes, space in a non-base sleeper must be considered at risk for cancellation. Personally, I will not consider the situation stabilized until Amtrak has gone a full year without removing cars with sold space. By my reckoning, they'll have to make it to October 2023 without pulling this crap any more.
> 
> 531 is a base sleeper. 532 is not. Unfortunately, it makes a different under current conditions.
> 
> Finally, the car line numbers are virtual. They do not correspond to physical cars. Any Superliner standard sleeper can run in any Superliner standard sleeper car line. Further Superliners run in a national pool.


This photo accidentally shows Car 530 in Denver, summer 2014. I think it was going through to EMY on this occasion. When it runs CHI<>DEN it's locally known as the _Denver Zephyr._


----------



## Bonser

Lonnie said:


> So just for fun, I talked with an agent today, the 10th, about the chances of the sleeper car not being there in the EB on the 17th. She said we would have been emailed two weeks before travel date if our car was going to be removed.


I'm booked on the EB, CHI-SEA, in March in car 730. That one is most likely safe from being removed, right?


----------



## jsp

Booked CHI-DEN for next summer and was auto assigned to roomette 2 in the 32 car. Before I got around to call to try to move to the base car (31), my reservation was automatically modified to put me in roomette 6 in the 31 car.

Here‘s the interesting part: I can make a dummy reservation for two family bedrooms on that date, which suggests that the -32 car is running. Does this mean that they are reacting to this year’s fiasco by changing the booking practice to fill the base car first instead of spreading people through the consist (which would normally make some sense because it better spreads the workload among the SCAs)? It still would put people who get into the non base car at risk, (assuming the lead car fills before they know the disposition of the other car lines) but at least it doesn’t punish people who were among the first to book.


----------



## Lonnie

Bonser said:


> I'm booked on the EB, CHI-SEA, in March in car 730. That one is most likely safe from being removed, right?


That's what they've said and apparently is true, as the 30 car is the base car. I'm sitting in the 830 right now enjoying the scenery in the Glacier area. You may want to call a couple weeks ahead of time just to be sure.


----------



## skylar

We'll be in 732 next week (MKE - SEA), guess we'll be rolling the dice, had no idea how dodgy things had gotten on the Empire Builder since things seemed like they were recovering last year.


----------



## zephyr17

skylar said:


> We'll be in 732 next week (MKE - SEA), guess we'll be rolling the dice, had no idea how dodgy things had gotten on the Empire Builder since things seemed like they were recovering last year.


732 is the transdorm car line for the Builder (it may not actually be a transdorm. In the recent past, some Builder consists have had transdorms, some standard sleepers). I have no idea why they use 32 for the transdorm on the Builder instead of the 40 car line that is used for the other trains, but they do.

Regardless, 732 is a transdorm car line and therefore relatively safe. The "base" sleeper and the transdorm on trains that have them are pretty assured to run. The 31 car line is the one that would be at risk for removal on the Builder.


----------



## skylar

zephyr17 said:


> 732 is the transdorm car line for the Builder (it may not actually be a transdorm. In the recent past, some Builder consists have had transdorms, some standard sleepers). I have no idea why they use 32 for the transdorm on the Builder instead of the 40 car line that is used for the other trains, but they do.
> 
> Regardless, 732 is a transdorm car line and therefore relatively safe. The "base" sleeper and the transdorm on trains that have them are pretty assured to run. The 31 car line is the one that would be at risk for removal on the Builder.


Phew, thanks for the reassurance! One less thing off the travel worry list. 

A couple (hopefully) quick questions about the transdorm if you have time - do the transdorms only have roomettes, and only on the upper level? I was a little disappointed to see room 12 on our ticket thinking this was the lower level on a standard Superliner, but it seems that the transdorms fit all the roomettes on the upper level?

Also, is the trandorm typically right behind the locomotive? Might pack some earplugs if that's the case.

Thanks a bunch!


----------



## Bob Dylan

skylar said:


> Phew, thanks for the reassurance! One less thing off the travel worry list.
> 
> A couple (hopefully) quick questions about the transdorm if you have time - do the transdorms only have roomettes, and only on the upper level? I was a little disappointed to see room 12 on our ticket thinking this was the lower level on a standard Superliner, but it seems that the transdorms fit all the roomettes on the upper level?
> 
> Also, is the trandorm typically right behind the locomotive? Might pack some earplugs if that's the case.
> 
> Thanks a bunch!


All the Roomettes are Upstairs in the Transdorm, and since the Builder is running without a Bag Car now, you will be next to the Engines.


----------



## zephyr17

skylar said:


> Phew, thanks for the reassurance! One less thing off the travel worry list.
> 
> A couple (hopefully) quick questions about the transdorm if you have time - do the transdorms only have roomettes, and only on the upper level? I was a little disappointed to see room 12 on our ticket thinking this was the lower level on a standard Superliner, but it seems that the transdorms fit all the roomettes on the upper level?
> 
> Also, is the trandorm typically right behind the locomotive? Might pack some earplugs if that's the case.
> 
> Thanks a bunch!


IF it is running an actual transdorm, all roomettes are on the upper level. As I noted, recently some Builder consists have been running standard sleepers in the transdorm car line. If that is the case, I am not sure how they'll handle the room assignments, since there are roomettes that are routinely sold that don't exist on standard sleepers (16 and above, 15 being an alternative designation for the Family Room). Reports are that when a standard sleeper runs in a transdorm car line, they reassign rooms at boarding. So even if it is a standard sleeper, you may not wind up in 12 downstairs.

32 will have the baggage car between it and the engines. When I rode it in November, it had a baggage car. If the dropped it, they would have to have added a coach/bag to the Seattle section in order to remain ADA compliant (downstairs seating). If in addition to the single regular coach, that would be a good thing since a single Seattle coach is inadequate.

I think I'll run down to the Everett station this evening and have a look at 8's current consist and report back.


----------



## joelkfla

zephyr17 said:


> IF it is running an actual transdorm, all roomettes are on the upper level. As I noted, recently some Builder consists have been running standard sleepers in the transdorm car linel. If that is the case, I am not sure how they'll handle the room assignments, since there are roomettes that are routinely sold that don't exist on standard sleepers (16 and above, 15 being an alternative designation for the Family Room). Reports are that when a standard sleeper runs in a transdorm car line, they reassign rooms at boarding. So even if it is a standard sleeper, you may not wind up in 12 downstairs.
> 
> 32 will have the baggage car between it and the engines. When I rode it in November, it had a baggage car. If the dropped it, they would have to have added a coach/bag to the Seattle section in order to remain ADA compliant (downstairs seating). If in addition to the single regular coach, that would be a good thing since a single Seattle coach is inadequate.
> 
> I think I'll run down to the Everett station this evening and have a look at 8's current consist and report back.


If it's a transdorm, wouldn't the Roomette # be above 15? Craig Mashburn's transdorm diagram doesn't show a #12.

What's the line number of the Portland sleeper?


----------



## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> If it's a transdorm, wouldn't the Roomette # be above 15? Craig Mashburn's transdorm diagram doesn't show a #12.
> 
> What's the line number of the Portland sleeper?


Car line numbers of the Portland sleeper are 2730/2830.

Should have looked at that diagram. I knew the normal transdorm numbering on the aft end was above 15, but didn't know the other end. Will go down to Everett tonight and take a look at the consist.

732/832 has always been the transdorm car line for the Builder as long as I can remember. If they're selling non transdorm room numbers in it, that may have changed.

The 7 I rode on November 13th this year had a physical transdorm as 732.


----------



## rlschur

I just booked for 1/14 Roomette 13 from CHI-EMY in 532. Called and was told there was nothing available in the 531. This is a bucket list trip that fits well into the MLK weekend; could be months before I could reschedule. How has the CZ been running of late? Are we several months past them dropping the sleepers?

I suppose I could call back and seek another day to travel when 531 is available as I have a couple days in each direction. Any thoughts and insights appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## lordsigma

rlschur said:


> I just booked for 1/14 Roomette 13 from CHI-EMY in 532. Called and was told there was nothing available in the 531. This is a bucket list trip that fits well into the MLK weekend; could be months before I could reschedule. How has the CZ been running of late? Are we several months past them dropping the sleepers?
> 
> I suppose I could call back and seek another day to travel when 531 is available as I have a couple days in each direction. Any thoughts and insights appreciated. Thanks!


You could try that but I personally wouldn't cancel just yet - I'd say it's looking better that the 32 car is coming back. It appears like the first week of January based on room availability on the website and different peoples' reports of having reservations early January. I just did another inventory search and like I saw last week there is still a much bigger availability of sleeper inventory on the train beginning 1/3 in the westbound direction and 1/6 in the eastbound direction and it continues after that - appearing like the sleeper line is returning. Obviously can't make any guarantees but we are now under 2 weeks from then and those rooms are still available. My suggestion would be to wait until that first week of the year to see if the car shows up in the consist between now and then - if it does you're likely good. I'm planning to watch the Galesburg railfan cam that day and we'll see if it shows up. So far I haven't seen any reports that it's running though I haven't checked. Is the QR still showing up on your res?


----------



## rlschur

lordsigma said:


> You could try that but I personally wouldn't cancel just yet - I'd say it's looking better that the 32 car is coming back. It appears like the first week of January based on room availability on the website and different peoples' reports of having reservations early January. I just did another inventory search and like I saw last week there is still a much bigger availability of sleeper inventory on the train beginning 1/3 in the westbound direction and 1/6 in the eastbound direction. Obviously can't make any guarantees but we are now under 2 weeks from then and those rooms are still available. My suggestion would be to wait until that first week of the year to see if the car shows up in the consist between now and then - if it does you're likely good. I'm planning to watch the Galesburg railfan cam that day and we'll see if it shows up. So far I haven't seen any reports that it's running though I haven't checked.


Thank you! Very helpful to know. I’ve been watching availability for months waiting to get enough AGR points from credit card to book. Today it happened. I did notice that room prices came way down maybe 6 weeks ago (suggesting rooms available) and have stayed below high bucket since then. It even ran low bucket for a few weeks on that departure. 

You would think that at a certain point, with the train full, they’d be planning the run that sleeper. 

Forgot to ask, is the transdorm worth exploring? More likely to run?


----------



## lordsigma

rlschur said:


> Thank you! Very helpful to know. I’ve been watching availability for months waiting to get enough AGR points from credit card to book. Today it happened. I did notice that room prices came way down maybe 6 weeks ago (suggesting rooms available) and have stayed below high bucket since then. It even ran low bucket for a few weeks on that departure.
> 
> You would think that at a certain point, with the train full, they’d be planning the run that sleeper.
> 
> Forgot to ask, is the transdorm worth exploring? More likely to run?


It’s definitely a safer bet as the trans dorm is running now in case they did some last minute change of plans - but they’ve always usually given at least 2 weeks notice and we’re under that now so my prediction now would be the car is returning. Certainly not going to bet money but I feel better about it then a couple weeks ago when I first noticed this as they still had time to drop the car. I’d do whatever makes you comfortable - I certainly can’t promise it’s going to run only that some indications are pointing towards it at least a bit better than they were before. If the trans dorm isn’t available you could watch for the car that week. If it’s back that week then you’re good as that would be a result of winter consist shifts which will stick around until spring sometime.


----------



## rlschur

lordsigma said:


> It’s definitely a safer bet as the trans dorm is running now in case they did some last minute change of plans - but they’ve always usually given at least 2 weeks notice and we’re under that now so my prediction now would be the car is returning. Certainly not going to bet money but I feel better about it then a couple weeks ago when I first noticed this as they still had time to drop the car. I’d do whatever makes you comfortable - I certainly can’t promise it’s going to run only that some indications are pointing towards it at least a bit better than they were before. If the trans dorm isn’t available you could watch for the car that week. If it’s back that week then you’re good as that would be a result of winter consist shifts which will stick around until spring sometime.


Great points. Data point here. I called again, this time the AGR number. Voila, room 10 in 531. This agent seemed way more competent.


----------



## lordsigma

rlschur said:


> Great points. Data point here. I called again, this time the AGR number. Voila, room 10 in 531. This agent seemed way more competent.


There you go - will still be interesting to see if the 32 car shows up.


----------



## Railspike

From reading the various threads it appears there are cars stored and cars damaged awaiting various degrees of repair.
Since Amtrak maintenance is supposedly still understaffed, would it not make sense to farm some of these cars out for repair elsewhere? Realizing it most likely takes special mechanical training to work on a car, there are companies that work on privately owned rail cars who might like the extra work. Doesn't Amtrak have money from the Biden bill that could be used on repairs and restoration? Or is this even a possibility?


----------



## lordsigma

Railspike said:


> From reading the various threads it appears there are cars stored and cars damaged awaiting various degrees of repair.
> Since Amtrak maintenance is supposedly still understaffed, would it not make sense to farm some of these cars out for repair elsewhere? Realizing it most likely takes special mechanical training to work on a car, there are companies that work on privately owned rail cars who might like the extra work. Doesn't Amtrak have money from the Biden bill that could be used on repairs and restoration? Or is this even a possibility?


There was some talk that they looked at that but there wasn't really wasn't much interest (as some of the companies you'd farm out to are also dealing with the same problem.)


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

I imagine the Unions might not be too happy about farming out repair work as it would set a precedent for outsourcing more of such work.


----------



## fengshui

Another anecdotal report:

I'm on the Sunset Limited today, and there is no transition sleeper or crew car. There is one Texas Eagle sleeper and one Sunset Limited sleeper, that's all. Half the SL sleepers (7 of the upstairs roomettes) are in use by crew. No idea what demand would have been for rooms in a second SL sleeper, but here we are.


----------



## jis

fengshui said:


> Another anecdotal report:
> 
> I'm on the Sunset Limited today, and there is no transition sleeper or crew car. There is one Texas Chief sleeper and one Sunset Limited sleeper, that's all. Half the SL sleepers (7 of the upstairs roomettes) are in use by crew. No idea what demand would have been for rooms in a second SL sleeper, but here we are.


Texas Chief! Now that's a name I have not come across in a while ever since Amtrak renamed that train the Lone Star and then cancelled it.

You really meant to say Texas Eagle.


----------



## fengshui

jis said:


> Texas Chief! Now that's a name I have not come across in a while ever since Amtrak renamed that train the Lone Star and then cancelled it.
> 
> You really meant to say Texas Eagle.


Indeed, it's early in the morning..... I'll correct it.


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## Rasputin

jis said:


> Texas Chief! Now that's a name I have not come across in a while ever since Amtrak renamed that train the Lone Star and then cancelled it.
> 
> You really meant to say Texas Eagle.


But thanks very much for the error which brought back memories of the Santa Fe's Texas Chief and a sad reminder of how much we have lost.


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## lordsigma

5(3) has a 532 sleeper as seen at Galesburg. It looks like a reg sleeper also subbing for the transition dorm on today’s train.


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## lordsigma

Checked back again today - 5 zephyr again had a 532 car - transition followed by two sleepers. Looking at the video today I may have been mistaken yesterday and it was a transition with two regular yesterday. Looks like this sleeper line is back for now.


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## Bonser

zephyr17 said:


> IF it is running an actual transdorm, all roomettes are on the upper level. As I noted, recently some Builder consists have been running standard sleepers in the transdorm car line. If that is the case, I am not sure how they'll handle the room assignments, since there are roomettes that are routinely sold that don't exist on standard sleepers (16 and above, 15 being an alternative designation for the Family Room). Reports are that when a standard sleeper runs in a transdorm car line, they reassign rooms at boarding. So even if it is a standard sleeper, you may not wind up in 12 downstairs.
> 
> 32 will have the baggage car between it and the engines. When I rode it in November, it had a baggage car. If the dropped it, they would have to have added a coach/bag to the Seattle section in order to remain ADA compliant (downstairs seating). If in addition to the single regular coach, that would be a good thing since a single Seattle coach is inadequate.
> 
> I think I'll run down to the Everett station this evening and have a look at 8's current consist and report back.


I'm traveling on the Builder in late March. They will have baggage service CHI-SEA right???


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## zephyr17

Bonser said:


> I'm traveling on the Builder in late March. They will have baggage service CHI-SEA right???


Yes, they'll have checked baggage. I was really responding to the question whether the transdorm was right next to the engine, and that, no, the baggage car would be between the locomotives and transdorm. If they pulled the baggage car, they'd have to add a coach/bag.

Either way, they'll handle checked bags.


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## Bonser

zephyr17 said:


> Yes, they'll have checked baggage. I was really responding to the question whether the transdorm was right next to the engine, and that, no, the baggage car would be between the locomotives and transdorm. If they pulled the baggage car, they'd have to add a coach/bag.
> 
> Either way, they'll handle checked bags.


Thank you Zephyr 17. I regularly travel on the Zephyr to SF but this year I'm going there via Seattle and I've only taken the EB once before - eastbound from Portland - about 5 yrs ago.


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