# thinking about old rail north of Harrisburg



## northnorthwest (Oct 27, 2015)

Over the weekend we drove from Baltimore to Rochester, NY. This passed a stunning (leaves this time of year) portion of route 15 in PA through Lewisburg, Williamsport, then up toward Corning. With all these gorgeous hills and the river on the side I was thinking it would make a great rail route for scenery alone. There's not much going on in this region that I could see. No major towns, etc. Was there ever rail connecting this region and part of the state and up into NY state? If so where did it go? And when did it stop? I sure would have loved to have been on a train instead of 6 hours in the car!


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## jphjaxfl (Oct 27, 2015)

Until Amtrak started, Penn Central ran the Buffalo Day Express from Harrisburg to Buffalo. It was a former Pennsylvania Railroad train. A few years earlier, there was a companion overnight train from Harrisburg to Buffalo with a branch to Erie. When these trains lost their RPOs, they were discontinued.


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## jis (Oct 27, 2015)

The main NS trunk going north from Harrisburg now is the line that they just acquired from CP. It runs through Sunbury, Wilkes-Barre, Scranton onto Binghamton and then along the Susquehanna valley through Oneonta to Schenectady. Historically this is a combination of PRR, Lackawanna (Delaware, Lackawanna and Western which became part of Erie-Lackawanna), and Delaware and Hudson (DH) routes. There is also the other leg of the (ex-Erie) Southern Tier Line connecting from Binghamton to Buffalo. And there is the NYSW from Binghamton to Syracuse (ex DLW) and Utica (ex DLW) too, but they appear to be secondary in nature at present.

The Harrisburg to Schenectady via Binghamton is part of the NAFTA Corridor which connects at Schenectady with CP to Montreal. And Oh yes, it runs over the famous 100 year old spectacular Tunkhannock Viaduct at Nicholson PA. If and when the (ex-DL&W) Lackawanna Cutoff gets completed in NJ and passenger service is restored from New York to Scranton, then the next step would be to extend service to Binghamton from Scranton. In a study for restoring passenger service to Binghamton both PA and NY have shown a preference for this route rather than the old southern Tier Erie route via Port Jervis (which has passenger service upto Port Jervis provided by NJT under contract from MNRR as part of MNRR west of Hudson service). This choice is due to projected running times. The old Lackawanna route via Scranton is faster by a couple of hours than the old Erie route.Both the old Erie route and the old D&LW route are quite scenic, with the Erie route having a certain edge in my opinion, as it winds along the Delaware River valley, which also makes it the slower route.

The old PRR trunk from Harrisburg through Sunbury, Williamsport, Olean to Buffalo is still an active NS freight route, but with very low chance of getting any passenger service. Also, currently there are no plans for passenger service between Harrisburg and Scranton along the NAFTA Corridor.


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## Acela150 (Oct 27, 2015)

Yeah and that D&H segment is Track Authority City! The territory is either Dark or 261. It's truly strange.


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## FormerOBS (Oct 27, 2015)

I rode the Pennsylvania Railroad's Baltimore Day Express south from Buffalo to Harrisburg some time in the mid 1960's --- probably around 1964 or 1965. It consisted of two PRR E8's, one or two baggage cars, and two P70 heavyweight coaches. The train had clean restrooms and cold water in the fountains, but no food service. Box lunches were taken on the train at Williamsport for those who preordered them. As I recall, the lunch consisted of a sandwich, soft drink, an apple, and (I think) a cookie. The accommodations were spartan, but I considered it one of the most scenic trips I've ever taken. Most of the time, no roads were visible. The headwaters of the Susquehanna River were crystal clear.

In earlier days, there was overnight sleeper service on this run, and some trains featured diner service.

Another route in this area was PRR's Elmira Branch, which covered the same trackage between Harrisburg and Williamsport, then ran straight North to Elmira and the Lake Ontario port at Sodus Point. Service to the end of the line at Sodus Point ended Nov. 15, 1935. PRR had a train to Canandaigua which continued to operate with sleepers until April 15, 1955. It connected with the Buffalo Day Express (No. 571, Baltimore to Buffalo) at Williamsport, and proceeded north to Canandaigua. In the very early years, through sleepers and coaches were interchanged to the New York Central at Canandaigua to provide through service to Niagara Falls. As far as I know, the Sodus Point line is now entirely abandoned.

Much of the foregoing information comes from Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch, by Bill Caloroso, Andover Publications, Andover, NJ, 1993 (Out of Print).

There was also passenger service north from Harrisburg to Wilkes-Barre via Sunbury, as well as other lesser branch services, until the late 1940's or later, but I don't know much about that.

Unfortunately, the chances that scheduled passenger service might return to the Harrisburg-Buffalo route are extremely slim. However, some very limited excursions have been operated on some of this trackage in recent years.

Tom


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## railiner (Oct 27, 2015)

I rode from Harrisburg to Buffalo in the month's just prior to 'A-Day', in a marathon effort to cover as many soon-to-be freight only lines as possible.

I vaguely recall a single E-7 or 8, a baggage car and one, perhaps two, reclining seat coaches. I seem to recall we made a 'bus style' meal stop at Williamsport or Emporium (not sure, too vague). The pace was leisurely, but the scenery was gorgeous. I believe at one time they ran thru service all the way from Washington to Buffalo....


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Oct 27, 2015)

There was a train going through Wilkes Barre? My hometown! That was Harrisburg to Buffalo?

I remember a previous post about Harrisburg/Baltimore/Washington as well.

I remember the Broadway Limited connected with a Martz bus to Scranton at Harrisburg. I don't think it was a Thruway Bus but Harrisburg was train and bus in the same building. I just saw they now have a Thruway to/from W-B/Scranton.

I wonder if there would be any train route possible via Scranton-Wilkes Barre-Allentown/Lehigh Valley-Philadelphia and if you see reasonable demand? I know NJ Transit wants Scranton to New York.


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## jis (Oct 28, 2015)

It will be easier to get something going to Wilkes-Barre - Scranton from Philly via Reading. The problem with Allentown AFAICT is that there is no longer any through operating route from Allentown to Philly that can be used for passenger service on any reasonable schedule, without backtracking west and going via Reading.


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## Eric S (Oct 28, 2015)

The line formerly operated by SEPTA (from Lansdale?) to Bethlehem is now a rail trail, if I'm not mistaken.


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## neroden (Oct 31, 2015)

SEPTA still has the right to restore rail service to the Bethlehem line, trail or no trail. They have been really hostile to doing so, but if local government and SEPTA management change, it could be restored in a few months.


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## fairviewroad (Nov 17, 2015)

neroden said:


> SEPTA still has the right to restore rail service to the Bethlehem line, trail or no trail. They have been really hostile to doing so, but if local government and SEPTA management change, it could be restored in a few months.


A few _months? _That strikes me as wildly optimistic in an era when it seems to take years to build a single ADA compliant station. I mean, with enough money you can move mountains, but I suspect that this route would require a few years to restore, at a minimum.


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## neroden (Dec 7, 2015)

No EIS required. No land acquisition. No significant bridge work. No freight railroads to argue with. Trail is on a revocable-at-will permit. The legalities have all been left in place for service, which is an oddity... it knocks *years* off the schedule.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Dec 8, 2015)

jis said:


> The main NS trunk going north from Harrisburg now is the line that they just acquired from CP. It runs through Sunbury, Wilkes-Barre, Scranton onto Binghamton and then along the Susquehanna valley through Oneonta to Schenectady. Historically this is a combination of PRR, Lackawanna (Delaware, Lackawanna and Western which became part of Erie-Lackawanna), and Delaware and Hudson (DH) routes. There is also the other leg of the (ex-Erie) Southern Tier Line connecting from Binghamton to Buffalo. And there is the NYSW from Binghamton to Syracuse (ex DLW) and Utica (ex DLW) too, but they appear to be secondary in nature at present.
> 
> The Harrisburg to Schenectady via Binghamton is part of the NAFTA Corridor which connects at Schenectady with CP to Montreal. And Oh yes, it runs over the famous 100 year old spectacular Tunkhannock Viaduct at Nicholson PA. If and when the (ex-DL&W) Lackawanna Cutoff gets completed in NJ and passenger service is restored from New York to Scranton, then the next step would be to extend service to Binghamton from Scranton. In a study for restoring passenger service to Binghamton both PA and NY have shown a preference for this route rather than the old southern Tier Erie route via Port Jervis (which has passenger service upto Port Jervis provided by NJT under contract from MNRR as part of MNRR west of Hudson service). This choice is due to projected running times. The old Lackawanna route via Scranton is faster by a couple of hours than the old Erie route.Both the old Erie route and the old D&LW route are quite scenic, with the Erie route having a certain edge in my opinion, as it winds along the Delaware River valley, which also makes it the slower route.
> 
> The old PRR trunk from Harrisburg through Sunbury, Williamsport, Olean to Buffalo is still an active NS freight route, but with very low chance of getting any passenger service. Also, currently there are no plans for passenger service between Harrisburg and Scranton along the NAFTA Corridor.


I am wondering if NJT is successful in getting up to Scranton/Binghamton, could that eventually lead to a train from Chicago (or at least Buffalo) to NYP via Binghamton/Scranton faster than going all the way east to Albany? I would think cutting through New York/ PA/ NJ might save some time.


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## Eric S (Dec 8, 2015)

Nope, the old PRR and NYC were the fastest New York-Chicago routes historically.

And, I think I can state with some certainty that New Jersey Transit will never run to Binghamton - maybe Scranton, but not Binghamton.


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## railiner (Dec 9, 2015)

I seriously doubt NJT would ever run to Scranton. Even if the Cutoff is restored, they would likely terminate at East Stroudsburg, unless PA would kick in some funding to extend on to Scranton. NJT did run the Raritan Valley for a while as far as Phillipsburg, across the river from Easton, but then cut back.

I would say it would be more likely that New York would fund some Port Jervis trains on to Binghamton, but even that is highly unlikely.....


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## greatcats (Dec 9, 2015)

As a former Erie Lackawanna employee, I do not have the schedules at hand, but many years ago the Phoebe Snow day schedule Hoboken-Buffalo I believe was a pretty efficient run timewise. But after the merger, the remaining trains that ran to Chicago ( not through Buffalo ) were slow in comparison - I think about 23 hours running time, Hoboken-Chicago. At the end, the Lake Ciies, whih stopped running in January, 1970, left the east with a diner and sleeper, but these were subtracted in Ohio and Indiana, so the train was down to a baggage car and two coaches into Chicago. Now large portions of that route do not exist.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 9, 2015)

neroden said:


> No EIS required. No land acquisition. No significant bridge work. No freight railroads to argue with. Trail is on a revocable-at-will permit. The legalities have all been left in place for service, which is an oddity... it knocks *years* off the schedule.


Fair points, but it's been 30+ years since trains ran up to Bethlehem. Resuming service would presumably mean building (or rehabbing) a series of ADA accessible stations and platforms, new parking lots, access roads, etc. Not to mention laying the tracks, of course. I still think it's a matter of years, not months. But as this remains a hypothetical for the time being, we can both assume we're right.


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## trainviews (Dec 9, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I am wondering if NJT is successful in getting up to Scranton/Binghamton, could that eventually lead to a train from Chicago (or at least Buffalo) to NYP via Binghamton/Scranton faster than going all the way east to Albany? I would think cutting through New York/ PA/ NJ might save some time.


I guess it's all in the name: the water level route. The route via Albany is far the flattest as the Valleys cut through the hills in two fairly straight lines, so none of the hills have to be crossed. As the crow flies a routing across NJ an PA to Binghampton and on looks much shorter, but the train acts nothing like a crow if it has to wind around hills and valleys. Same problem actually on the Harrisburg-Pittsburgh route which is very slow compared to driving.


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## railiner (Dec 9, 2015)

Fastest ever regular schedule from Chicago to New York, was PRR #28, The Broadway Limited....for a brief period it ran eastward in only 15' 30"......

Like to see Amtrak ever match that time, even with its high-speed NEC to boost it along.... 

Here's a link with the schedule... http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track5/broadway195607.html


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Dec 9, 2015)

railiner said:


> Fastest ever regular schedule from Chicago to New York, was PRR #28, The Broadway Limited....for a brief period it ran eastward in only 15' 30"......
> 
> Like to see Amtrak ever match that time, even with its high-speed NEC to boost it along....
> 
> Here's a link with the schedule... http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track5/broadway195607.html


Are those the only stops that they made? If we could run a BR with only 10 stops as opposed to 30 we might have a chance to get it to 15:30 although I doubt they would do an LD train with that few stops (as I had suggested and it was almost unanimously shot down).


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## greatcats (Dec 9, 2015)

I have read that there were other crew change stops, such as Seligman, AZ. The Super Chief apparently did not serve Flagstaff. Seligman is no longer a station stop these days.


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## railiner (Dec 9, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Fastest ever regular schedule from Chicago to New York, was PRR #28, The Broadway Limited....for a brief period it ran eastward in only 15' 30"......
> ...


Those were the only stops at that time. And some of them wouldn't even be stops, except for technical purposes (engine change at Harrisburg, and servicing, and/or crew changes at some others....

Keep in mind, that at that time there were a bunch of other trains on the route serving a lot more stops.....


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