# Pre-Amtrak in San Diego



## jiml (Sep 30, 2019)

I wasn't sure where to post this to attract input from the historians onboard, but this seemed like as good a place as any. I'm currently in San Diego (via Amtrak of course) and after stepping off the train at the famous depot I got to wondering about what long-distance service might have existed from here pre-Amtrak. I'm aware of the San Diegans, which ran on the current route, but IIRC they had distances similar to the Surfliners today. Were there any routes out of here that went elsewhere? Having driven from SD to inland California, bypassing LA, I wondered if there were similar rail routes at any time. Some of it is rugged territory and even the highway drive reflects this, so maybe it was impractical and everything funnelled through the Los Angeles area? There's certainly not a lot of searchable data available, although the criteria may be too specific. I'm really interested to hear from the experts.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 1, 2019)

At one time I think there was a thru sleeper on the Southern Pacific east. And it operated on an interesting route that crises crossed between the US and Mexico.


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## railiner (Oct 1, 2019)

Early in the Amtrak era, They ran thru San Diego / Seattle cars...


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## trainman74 (Oct 2, 2019)

Looking at my June 1956 Official Guide: Santa Fe had six San Diegans to Los Angeles daily, and that was it for San Diego passenger train service. There was a listed connection to trains 3 and 4, which ran L.A. to Kansas City via Amarillo, but I don't see any indication of through cars.

(The Pacific Surfliners of today travel further than the San Diegans did, given that some of the trains run as far as San Luis Obispo.)


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## Eric S (Oct 3, 2019)

Up through the early 1950s or so, there was some level of passenger service over the San Diego & Arizona (later San Diego & Arizona Eastern), which ran east from San Diego to a connection with Southern Pacific at El Centro.


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## railiner (Oct 3, 2019)

Here's a page from the January 1972 system timetable...
starting in June, the thru train ended at Los Angeles, with a cross platform connection to/from San Diego...
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19720116&item=0069


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## cirdan (Oct 4, 2019)

railiner said:


> Here's a page from the January 1972 system timetable...
> starting in June, the thru train ended at Los Angeles, with a cross platform connection to/from San Diego...
> http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19720116&item=0069



Are you sure?

my reading of that timetable is that it is a thru service.


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## railiner (Oct 4, 2019)

That timetable IS a thru train....here is the June 1972 timetable where it no longer is...see the difference?
The June TT has a dot next to the Los Angeles station, and the reference note explaining it....
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19720611&item=0056


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## railiner (Oct 4, 2019)

Here is another clue...
The January LAX SAN TT
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19720116&item=0070

compared to the June LAX SAN TT
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19720611&item=0057


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## Metra Electric Rider (Oct 4, 2019)

Was the route to the east the Carrizo (sp) Gorge? I think I've seen video of the route somewhere, is any of it still active?


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## Metra Electric Rider (Oct 4, 2019)

Sorry, went out and came home and thought it didn't post...


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## ehbowen (Oct 21, 2019)

Here's the last timetable which I have showing through service between San Diego and the east:

http://streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/imperial195008.html

After early 1951, all service was on the Surf Line via Fullerton and Los Angeles.


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## jiml (Oct 21, 2019)

ehbowen said:


> Here's the last timetable which I have showing through service between San Diego and the east:
> 
> http://streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/imperial195008.html
> 
> After early 1951, all service was on the Surf Line via Fullerton and Los Angeles.


That's excellent, and precisely answers the original question. Thanks for this.


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## MikefromCrete (Oct 21, 2019)

This is very interesting. I'm been a railfan for a long time, but I've never heard of a San Diego connection to the Rock Island-Southern Pacific trains. Of course, since it was discontinued when I was just a little kid living in the Midwest, I probably totally overlooked it at the time.


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## Thogo (Oct 22, 2019)

There have also been through long-distance sleepers to San Diego via ATSF. In the August 1952 OG that was the daily sleeper that went from Washington DC to San Diego and back, over the BO (trains 5/6 _Capitol Limited_) and the ATSF (trains 19/20 _Chief_ and San Diegan trains 74/71). The through sleeper to San Diego started to run in March 1947. In the first year(s) it ran from Chicago to San Diego (for example in the April 1948 OG). I don't know when exactly the Washington-San Diego through routing was introduced, but obviously at some point between April 1948 and August 1952. I believe the San Diego sleeper ran until early 1954 only. So this was pretty short-lived. It was definitely gone by August 1955 (the OG shows no through service to San Diego anymore).


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## railiner (Oct 22, 2019)

ehbowen said:


> Here's the last timetable which I have showing through service between San Diego and the east:
> 
> http://streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/imperial195008.html
> 
> After early 1951, all service was on the Surf Line via Fullerton and Los Angeles.


That is very interesting... I also learned from that timetable, that there were two "dips" into and out of Mexico on the connecting SD&AE train. I wasn't aware that the Imperial ran that alternate (from the Sunset) line between Yuma and El Centro via Calexico. The Sunset stayed in the States all the way.


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## jiml (Oct 22, 2019)

Thogo said:


> There have also been through long-distance sleepers to San Diego via ATSF. In the August 1952 OG that was the daily sleeper that went from Washington DC to San Diego and back, over the BO (trains 5/6 _Capitol Limited_) and the ATSF (trains 19/20 _Chief_ and San Diegan trains 74/71). The through sleeper to San Diego started to run in March 1947. In the first year(s) it ran from Chicago to San Diego (for example in the April 1948 OG). I don't know when exactly the Washington-San Diego through routing was introduced, but obviously at some point between April 1948 and August 1952. I believe the San Diego sleeper ran until early 1954 only. So this was pretty short-lived. It was definitely gone by August 1955 (the OG shows no through service to San Diego anymore).


Presumably this was via Fullerton, then south on current Surfliner trackage, or was a stop made in LA?


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## ehbowen (Oct 22, 2019)

railiner said:


> That is very interesting... I also learned from that timetable, that there were two "dips" into and out of Mexico on the connecting SD&AE train. I wasn't aware that the Imperial ran that alternate (from the Sunset) line between Yuma and El Centro via Calexico. The Sunset stayed in the States all the way.


Yep. The right-of-way of this line between downtown San Diego and San Ysidro was re-purposed as the original (Blue) line of the San Diego Trolley system, although I understand it's still available for freight use in the wee hours.


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## ehbowen (Oct 22, 2019)

jiml said:


> Presumably this was via Fullerton, then south on current Surfliner trackage, or was a stop made in LA?


Via Los Angeles/LAUPT. The _Chief _(as well as most of Santa Fe's passenger trains) ran via Pasadena, not via Fullerton. As well, I believe that Fullerton did not have facilities for the switching and temporary storage of rail cars.





Edit To Add: Sorry, but it looks as if the forum software compressed the original images beyond the point of readability. The original images were 1073 by 1510 pixels, easily readable with IrfanView.


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## jiml (Oct 22, 2019)

ehbowen said:


> Via Los Angeles/LAUPT. The _Chief _(as well as most of Santa Fe's passenger trains) ran via Pasadena, not via Fullerton. As well, I believe that Fullerton did not have facilities for the switching and temporary storage of rail cars.
> View attachment 15365
> View attachment 15366
> View attachment 15367


Thanks! I love San Diego and find its rail history fascinating every time I visit.
Our one hotel there a couple of weeks ago had a great view of the Santa Fe depot and I couldn't avoid staring out the window.


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## jiml (Oct 22, 2019)

ehbowen said:


> Edit To Add: Sorry, but it looks as if the forum software compressed the original images beyond the point of readability. The original images were 1073 by 1510 pixels, easily readable with IrfanView.


Not really that great in IrfanView either. Any chance you have them as PDF's? I can PM you and discuss transfer if you do.


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## Thogo (Oct 23, 2019)

jiml said:


> Presumably this was via Fullerton, then south on current Surfliner trackage, or was a stop made in LA?



It was via LA. The _Chief_ didn't run via Fullerton back then, but via Pasadena. (On a side note, the only ATSF long-distance train that went via Fullerton in August 1952 was the _Grand Canyon_.)

edit: Just saw that it was already answered above. ^^


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## jis (Oct 25, 2019)

Yeah. The Southwest Limited under Amtrak ran via Pasadena too, as did the SW Chief until the Pasadena route was shut down. The Desert Wind OTOH used the Fullerton route.


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## jiml (Oct 25, 2019)

jis said:


> The Desert Wind OTOH used the Fullerton route.


Which used to be very handy if you were taking 2 kids to Disneyland.


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