# Amtrak request for proposal-Nationwide Food & Beverage Service



## lordsigma (Sep 14, 2018)

Link here: https://procurement.amtrak.com/irj/portal/anonymous?NavigationTarget=navurl://7e7c6db809b56f05f8e58e6565a217df

Description: REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS * AMTRAK FOOD AND BEVERAGE SERVICES *

Sorry if there is already a thread on this - looks like Amtrak may be putting feelers out there for outsourcing of F&B? Looks like the F&B saga is far from over.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 14, 2018)

Interesting.... I wonder who would put in a bid?

xanterra maybe? Ed Ellis?


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## cpotisch (Sep 14, 2018)

Hopefully somehow something good comes out of this. I don't know what that would be, but nowadays it's always good to keep your fingers crossed when it comes to Amtrak F&B.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Sep 14, 2018)

http://www.newrest.eu/en/who-we-work-for/railway-companies/

One thinks Newrest will.


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## bretton88 (Sep 14, 2018)

I'm sure it won't be hard to upgrade from Aramark. This feels like it could be a step in the right direction for Amtrak. This is an interesting point:

The* proposed models/practices should offer different levels of travel to include luxury options* that are similar to the Rocky Mountaineer in Canada and Via Rails “Canadian” and European luxury trains such as: Golden Eagle (Moscow to Vladivostok), Golden Eagle Danube Express (Budapest, Prague & Sarajevo), Venice Simplon-Orient Express (Paris to Istanbul), Belmond Royal Scotsman (England, Scotland and Wales), Belmond Grand Hibernian (Ireland’s first luxury overnight train service)

The things I take from all this: Amtrak is committed to providing a decent dining product going forward and secondly that the Cap/LSL model may not have worked out (everyone seems to forget that it was a pilot program).


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 14, 2018)

With the possible exception of the Canadian, all these other model operations are very upscale and expensive. While improved food service is a good idea, I hope Amtrak doesn't price itself out of the reach of regular folks.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 14, 2018)

The Canadian is basically what amtrak had about 15 years ago before the "simplified dining service" that cut the staff down.


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## bretton88 (Sep 14, 2018)

MikefromCrete said:


> With the possible exception of the Canadian, all these other model operations are very upscale and expensive. While improved food service is a good idea, I hope Amtrak doesn't price itself out of the reach of regular folks.


I would say Amtrak outside of coach/business class has largely reached that point anyways in high season. Low season you can still find some good sleeper pricing.


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## GBNorman (Sep 14, 2018)

Now wait a minute; are these 77yo eyes reading this right?

..all aspects of its Food and Beverage operations, including management of its warehouse operations ON BOARD ITS TRAINS and in support of its intercity train operations.....

Sounds like a rerun of the Subway debacle (Subway sandwich products handled on board the NY-ALB trains by non-Agreement employees of the chain); only this time Systemwide!

Well, Mr. Anderson succeeded in deunionizing several Northwest crafts on Delta such as Attendants, so I guess it's time to try it out on Amtrak.

This could be war!!

Time for a little hum along (theme: "The year of living dangerously")

https://youtu.be/kDCall_B-ig


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 14, 2018)

If this is merely a request for proposals, could it be years before anything comes of it?


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## Ryan (Sep 14, 2018)

If ever at all.

Oddly enough, this was posted in August.

In September, an RFI on the same topic was published that stated that it was looking for information to inform a future RFP.

Somewhat backwards.


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## bretton88 (Sep 14, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> Now wait a minute; are these 77yo eyes reading this right?
> 
> ..all aspects of its Food and Beverage operations, including management of its warehouse operations ON BOARD ITS TRAINS and in support of its intercity train operations.....
> 
> ...


To be honest, I have a suspicion the LSL/Cap experiment was a test to see how bad the union pushback would be in a reduction of staff. However the use of the term "warehouse operations" implies to me not staffing change but how said companies would store and manage stock on the trains versus staffing.


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## cocojacoby (Sep 14, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> Now wait a minute; are these 77yo eyes reading this right?
> 
> ..all aspects of its Food and Beverage operations, including management of its warehouse operations ON BOARD ITS TRAINS and in support of its intercity train operations.....
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I have to say that many of Amtrak's dining car personnel aren't all that pleasant and should be eliminated. I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs, but if your attitude is that you don't care about your job then why should I? It's a war that has to be fought I think.


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## bms (Sep 14, 2018)

Looks to me like a way to eliminate some union positions in favor of a lower-priced contractor. Personally I'm happy paying a little more so that the staff has benefits and decent pay.


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## ehbowen (Sep 14, 2018)

bms said:


> Looks to me like a way to eliminate some union positions in favor of a lower-priced contractor. Personally I'm happy paying a little more so that the staff has benefits and decent pay.


I would agree provided that the services rendered live up to the premium level of pay received. If not...drop-kick them and start over fresh.


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## lordsigma (Sep 14, 2018)

I read through the entire document. From reading it almost seems like they are a little bit desperate to get some suggestions from the food service industry. They know they are mandated to reduce F&B losses but they also know the history (including the recent CL/LSL change) that when they make big cuts in F&B to reduce losses they get backlash from customers and lower ridership. It seems like they probably honestly don't know what to do and are hoping someone will come up with a magic bullet. For those employees facing possible elimination if Amtrak goes "contemporary dining" on more routes, some may probably prefer a managed service if they can wind up still having a job at the end of the day even if it means union busting.

If they went managed with outsourced employees I'd hope the affected in house Amtrak staff would be given a chance to apply for jobs in the replacement service. Amtrak does have some good F&B staff and yes some not so good. On my recent trip on the Crescent the southbound diner crew was outstanding - the SA was an absolute pleasure to deal with - extremely welcoming and pleasant and clearly enjoyed her job - probably the nicest OBS employee I have ever dealt with on Amtrak - and the Chef on that crew did a great job on both dinner and breakfast - got the "Land and Sea" dish just right and the person I sat with in the diner also noted that the chicken meal was also good that night. Northbound crew was just average but only had breakfast going home as I boarded in Atlanta and the train was two hours late and I made my connection to SPG in WAS instead of NYP on the way home - also got the wrong meal although they did correct it without giving me any grief which is why I'd still say average and not bad.


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## PVD (Sep 15, 2018)

Paying proper wages and benefits and creating a culture of good service are entirely separate. Weak and ineffective management is what creates bad service. If the only way a service can be run in to pay substandard wages and benefits, the service probably shouldn't exist. If someone is not willing or capable of performing a task in an acceptable manner, replacing them is reasonable. But lowering pay and benefits, making working conditions worse, and lessening protection from less than competent managers, solves nothing in the long term.


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## lordsigma (Sep 15, 2018)

The document indicates that they are looking for options that both retain in house Amtrak employees and fully outsourced options so I don't think any decisions have been made. At least they are doing research as opposed to jumping into a rash decision. I have not liked a lot of things done by the present regime so I'm not necessarily confident that the right thing will come out of this, but if changes are coming I would rather see something different than the LSL/CL approach on all routes which also eliminates tons of jobs so I'm at least happy to see that other options are being considered. I would agree about lowering pay and benefits and would also agree that shaking up management is ultimately the best place to start when making changes - I am not one that believes Amtrak should be required to make a profit. Passenger rail is something that all civilized countries provide as a service to their citizens and its not profitable anywhere. Amtrak should be looking at the European model and try to provide as superior service as possible to make people want to ride it - it takes an investment but ridership and revenue would increase - there are plenty of complaints people have about air travel and there are people that would take a break from it once and a while if they had a good alternative. The best place to start is to put in place a management that provides a good working environment for F&B employees, treats them well, and improves morale. Having employees constantly in fear of whether they are going to be eliminated by contemporary dining (or yes outsourcing) is not going to encourage good service in the dining car. You improve the working environment and yes if there are still bad apples out there that still don't want to do their job in a better climate then you try to push them out the door. In the end it isn't rocket science. It will be interesting to see what happens next.


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## amtrakpass (Sep 15, 2018)

As a Union member myself in a different craft, I am not opposed to trying different things to have better service, provide more options or be more efficient even if it results in the loss of some positions.

One thing I am diametrically opposed to and always will be is the idea that somehow lowering wages and paying people the absolute minimum with no off days is the golden key to business success. If people are working they should be paid enough so they can take care of themselves.

In this context it is not like the Amtrak onboard staff are getting rich. That is a misnomer from people who have not fully grasped the increases in cost of living the last 20 years,especially in major metropolitan areas.


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## amtrakpass (Sep 15, 2018)

One additional thought. Close to where I work in Chicago is a meat packer who also has a wholesale store which sells pork, chicken, beef etc at good discounts. For instance, this Tuesday, t-bone steaks were $3.99 a piece. How do they make money? By volume! That place is super busy all the time pretty much every weekend. You should see it on the holidays. For me Amtrak has a captive market, if you staffed the dining car with enough people to run it quickly with good service and then actually tried to get the coach passengers through with good prices, discounts and plenty of promotions it would be a better business model than trying to charge High prices to cover costs. Would it still lose money? Yes it would, I think but for the amount of money spent I would rather serve the most people some good food at a loss than what goes on now where coach passengers are treated like they don't need to eat too


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## PVD (Sep 15, 2018)

This country is filled with people who talk out of both sides of their mouths (and often a few other places) Supply and demand is great for pricing products and services, but when you can't fill jobs the last thing they want to hear is "pay more and make conditions better" Too many people who think everyone else is there for their convenience.


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## PVD (Sep 15, 2018)

_The Downeaster has outsourced food service including the onboard workers. It loses money. Most people who comment about it seem relatively pleased with the products and service. The agency that sponsors the service is willing to accept the losses because they believe that it enables them to attract more riders, and at a higher fare basis, than if the trains had no service. They believe that the F&B losses are more than offset by the ridership and pricing power gained by that loss. I'm going to Philly in a few weeks, an NER and a Keystone leave close to each other, I'll take the NER, I can have a cup of coffee. Should we eliminate toilets on short runs because they are an expense that can't be recouped?_


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## ehbowen (Sep 15, 2018)

PVD said:


> _Should we eliminate toilets on short runs because they are an expense that can't be recouped?_


No, just put a $5 bill acceptor in to unlock the door....

(I'm old enough to remember pay toilets in public places! I'm NOT serious!)


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## cpotisch (Sep 15, 2018)

PVD said:


> _The Downeaster has outsourced food service including the onboard workers. It loses money. Most people who comment about it seem relatively pleased with the products and service. The agency that sponsors the service is willing to accept the losses because they believe that it enables them to attract more riders, and at a higher fare basis, than if the trains had no service. They believe that the F&B losses are more than offset by the ridership and pricing power gained by that loss. I'm going to Philly in a few weeks, an NER and a Keystone leave close to each other, I'll take the NER, I can have a cup of coffee. Should we eliminate toilets on short runs because they are an expense that can't be recouped?_


Agreed! The food on the Downeaster is way better than any other short distance Amtrak train I've been on. It might not make money, but it certainly made the trip more appealing to me, and I imagine that's the case for many others.


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## cpotisch (Sep 15, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > _Should we eliminate toilets on short runs because they are an expense that can't be recouped?_
> ...


In Europe, free public restrooms are very rare. Pay toilets are not at all an old concept in many parts of the world.


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## RPC (Sep 15, 2018)

My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.


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## cpotisch (Sep 15, 2018)

RPC said:


> My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.


Sorry, how is the Canadian "two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables""?


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 15, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> RPC said:
> 
> 
> > My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.
> ...


It has that feel to it. The via rail coaches and coach ️️️dome cars haven't been touched in decades. It would be the equivalent of Amtrak coaches still running the Orange / red upholstery while the sleeping cars got refurbished.

When I rode, coach passengers were allowed to eat in the dining car though. Space available of course.


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## cpotisch (Sep 15, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > RPC said:
> ...


Just the difference between Sleeper Plus/Prestige and coach? Is the latter really that bad?


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## Skyline (Sep 15, 2018)

I think we shouldn't get too excited about the inclusion of very high end offerings in the RFP. Anderson said in April that he thought the idea of an "experiential" service has promise (paraphrasing). Read that to mean one or two upgraded transcon trains a week like the Canadian. It's a great idea, maybe, but not at the expense of a true national network that includes good if not great daily LD trains. It doesn't take an operable crystal ball to figure out what would happen to the daily national network if Anderson was able to hoodwink us this way.


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## cocojacoby (Sep 15, 2018)

RPC said:


> My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.


You know for the price you pay in "Sleeper Class" on Amtrak, it is pretty much at a luxury price level. Sleeper passengers should get good First Class Service at these prices . . . period.


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## railiner (Sep 15, 2018)

PVD said:


> _The Downeaster has outsourced food service including the onboard workers_


Wow....I had no idea of this...how could the Amtrak union's ever let that happen?






If they did...it was a grave error, as it "set a precedent", which will forever be a "bargaining chip" for management...


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Sep 15, 2018)

railiner said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > _The Downeaster has outsourced food service including the onboard workers_
> ...


New service funding by organization with no attachments to historical requirements. They want a cafe car, they paid for it. The products for sale are not stock in Boston, due to the Union, but the type of products are of there choosing. So more fresh foods, more local products. Money talks.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 15, 2018)

railiner said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > _The Downeaster has outsourced food service including the onboard workers_
> ...


Isn't the Downeaster owned by Maine and Amtrak just provides the engine/T&E? Like the California trains? (I could be way off base on this - wouldn't be the first time)


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Sep 15, 2018)

> Isn't the Downeaster owned by Maine and Amtrak just provides the engine/T&E? Like the California trains...


Not quite the same. Amtrak owned equipment, staffed by Amtrak T&E, the cafe car is equipped and staffed by a contractor. The entire train is fund by The Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (NNEPRA) which is a public transportation authority created in 1995 by the Maine State Legislature to develop and provide passenger rail service between Maine and Boston and points within Maine.

http://amtrakdowneaster.com/


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## PVD (Sep 15, 2018)

The point is, outsourcing, paying people less, and selling a wider variety of products still loses money. People are constantly implying that the cost of labor is the primary problem, and changing that will somehow make F&B profitable. It just isn't so. But that won't stop management and their allies from saying it. When was the last time a group of managers stood up and said "we misread the market, made a bunch of bad decisions, and are trying to figure out a way to either fix this or at at least make people think we are" Way easier to fix blame than to fix problems...At least a priest says "Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa"


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 15, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > _Should we eliminate toilets on short runs because they are an expense that can't be recouped?_
> ...


And I'm old enough to remember crawling under the stall doors as a kid


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## ehbowen (Sep 15, 2018)

If I'm Remembering Correctly (I was a kid, too!), there was always one "free" stall...at least in big restrooms (I'm specifically thinking of the airport).


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## railiner (Sep 15, 2018)

If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?


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## ehbowen (Sep 15, 2018)

railiner said:


> If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...
> 
> I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...
> 
> What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?


There is precedent for it...how do you think the Santa Fe/Fred Harvey partnership operated (for most of its history), or the Pullman Company?


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 16, 2018)

I promise you that the Food Service staff on the Downeaster are NOT Amtrak Union Employees and don't make anything near what Amtrak OBS make!

And the Cafe Menu is much better too! They even serve Coke products instead of Pepsi Swill!


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## Triley (Sep 16, 2018)

railiner said:


> If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...
> 
> I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...
> 
> What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?


I've talked to a couple of their attendants and they get a fraction of what we get paid (not much above minimum wage...), nor do they get railroad retirement, which I don't understand how their company gets away with that! They've told me that they would/could never due OBS for Amtrak if they were to get paid what they're making now.


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## railiner (Sep 16, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...
> ...


I could be wrong, but pretty sure the employees aboard the dining cars offering "Fred Harvey" service, were Santa Fe employees.

The Pullman Company was a different matter. The Porter's and Pullman Conductor's did work for The Pullman Company, working on the Pullman owned cars. They were union employees, earning full Railroad Retirement benefits.


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## railiner (Sep 16, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> I promise you that the Food Service staff on the Downeaster are NOT Amtrak Union Employees and don't make anything near what Amtrak OBS make!
> 
> And the Cafe Menu is much better too! They even serve Coke products instead of Pepsi Swill!


I am not disagreeing with this, just very surprised the union would let that happen. What about the other example's I cited--Amtrak California and North Carolina?

As for the menu offered, Amtrak employees have nothing to do with that...they could just as well serve those items, or anything else the sponsor desired...


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## railiner (Sep 16, 2018)

Triley said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...
> ...


I am not sure I understand your response....are you saying that they would work for whomever is employing them now for their wages, but would not work for Amtrak at those same wages?



I don't understand that, at all.

As for Railroad Retirement....that is a good question. Up in Alaska, on the ARR trains, the T&E crews definitely come under RRB. On the private, cruise ship owned cars, the cook's, waiter's, bar tender's, train manager positions, etc. are not under RRB. As for the ones working on the ARR owned cars...I am not sure...they may may not even be ARR employed either...

I suppose the key for RRB is whether the employee is paid directly by the railroad, or by someone else....PV owner's certainly do not pay RRB benefits to their employee's.


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## Triley (Sep 16, 2018)

railiner said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


I meant it was a hypothetical. They wouldn't be willing to do the job required of Amtrak OBS, if their private comment requires them to do so.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 16, 2018)

North Carolina has vending machines on their lounge cars. They also stock free mini-bottles of water for all passengers. I can't remember if the coffee is free, or if it's a pay machine. The vending machines have always been well-stocled and working and the waters have all been well stocked when I rode the Piedmont trains.

California has a different menu on their trains, as does the state sponsored Cascades trains. At one time the cascades operated the bistro car with 2 employees, allowing some foods prep on the train. For example, ordering oatmeal at breakfast you would get oatmeal spooned into a bowl from a pot with all the toppings like in a diner, not the usual add hot water to an instant tub like on most cafe cars. that was like 5 years ago though, may have changed.


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## railiner (Sep 16, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> North Carolina has vending machines on their lounge cars. They also stock free mini-bottles of water for all passengers. I can't remember if the coffee is free, or if it's a pay machine. The vending machines have always been well-stocled and working and the waters have all been well stocked when I rode the Piedmont trains.
> 
> California has a different menu on their trains, as does the state sponsored Cascades trains. At one time the cascades operated the bistro car with 2 employees, allowing some foods prep on the train. For example, ordering oatmeal at breakfast you would get oatmeal spooned into a bowl from a pot with all the toppings like in a diner, not the usual add hot water to an instant tub like on most cafe cars. that was like 5 years ago though, may have changed.


Different menu's...no problem. But who does (or did), the prep and serving on those Cascade bistro cars?


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 16, 2018)

Amtrak employees.

State of Indiana had non-Amtrak employees on tr hoosier state when it was run by iowa Pacific. Still Amtrak t&e, and still Amtrak ticketing.


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## PVD (Sep 16, 2018)

Keep in mind that the RRB Tier 1 is providing benefits that would be provided to other private sector workers covered by Social Security. There are a few nuances, particularly involving disability, and the transference of credit to SS if you don't retire or die directly out of a railroad, but it is by no means a super benefit above what other workers earn. Tier 2 is another matter, it is providing a benefit more in line with defined benefit pension plans that used to be more common in private industry before the screw the workers future in the name of cost certainty move to defined contribution plans gained a foothold.


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## bretton88 (Sep 16, 2018)

If Amtrak replaced the cafe attendant and the servers on the train, would they still have enough OBS staff? So not asking the lower paid employees to do anything more than food service?


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 16, 2018)

The current Amtrak food service employees don't do anything other than food service.


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## Anderson (Sep 16, 2018)

railiner said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > I promise you that the Food Service staff on the Downeaster are NOT Amtrak Union Employees and don't make anything near what Amtrak OBS make!
> ...


I'm not sure how much the unions there had to do with it. The "Subway Affair" in New York may simply have been down to it being New York.

To be fair, I've raised the prospect in the context of Amtrak refusing to run the trains due to the PTC situation, but I do wonder if there was a real risk of MA and ME simply working with the MBTA instead of Amtrak if the latter didn't run the trains. There are other possibilities, too (e.g. if this was the case from the start-of-service, did the union have any say in the contract? Did the local railroad's unions object? Did the local in question even object?) which could simply come down to a front that isn't as united as we sometimes make it out to be. For example, it might be hard to get the operating crews to object over the OBS situation if the state simply threatens to use vending machines instead (or even, for that matter, if they end up preferring the new food...I recall that the Hoosier State conductor position was rather sought-after in part for the simple fact that you had an Amtrak "day job" where you could get a good, hot meal...one conductor I know sure as hell wasn't complaining that Ed Ellis's employees weren't union).


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## ehbowen (Sep 16, 2018)

railiner said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


At the end when the transition was made to "Santa Fe all the way," the dining car employees were ATSF and only the supervisors were Fred Harvey. However, I'm pretty sure that in earlier years (up to the early '60s or so) the dining car employees were also Fred Harvey.

Outsourcing *does not* have to mean, "screw the worker." Yes, in point of actual practice in recent years it does mean that, but it's not inherent in the operation. It is possible to recognize that some outside concern has a corporate culture and skill set which complements and strengthens your own, and to retain them and their employees as honored and properly compensated professionals. Again, I do live in the real world (and I personally have been "outsourced" for most of my career). But just because most current companies abuse the practice does not mean that you *have* to.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10)."


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 16, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > ehbowen said:
> ...


Aren't you the incurable optimist. Unfortunately, the entire purpose of a corporation is to make money --- and lots of it.


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## ehbowen (Sep 16, 2018)

MikefromCrete said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> > At the end when the transition was made to "Santa Fe all the way," the dining car employees were ATSF and only the supervisors were Fred Harvey. However, I'm pretty sure that in earlier years (up to the early '60s or so) the dining car employees were also Fred Harvey.
> ...


It shouldn't be.


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## Triley (Sep 16, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The current Amtrak food service employees don't do anything other than food service.


Not necessarily. Many crew bases cross-qualify their attendants. Or look at the Auto Train, where attendants can work a coach one way, but as the LSA on their way back, and that's how the jobsc are actually designed there.


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## PVD (Sep 16, 2018)

Yes, while outsourcing today has a bad connotation, it doesn't always have to be. I spent a large part of my working life performing work under contract or supervising and providing support to teams of workers performing telecommunications work that companies could have had an employee/employees perform. My company was a signatory to the inside electrical workers contract, and I and my colleagues were compensated at the very top of the industry scales. There were companies that had more important things to be concerned with than sick day and vacation coverage, coverage during training, 24/7/365 emergencies, spare parts and engineering back up. Even spare whole systems. Talent retention and recruitment are real issues for special skills High end hotels, hospitals, financial firms and the like were happy to pay more for guaranteed performance.


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## cocojacoby (Sep 16, 2018)

Triley said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > The current Amtrak food service employees don't do anything other than food service.
> ...


And I'd like to add that the Auto Train employees are the absolute best and head-and-shoulders above all of the other Silver Service LD trains as far as pleasantness and attitude. Maybe moving people around different crafts makes them happier?


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 16, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Oh I think I had read the post wrong.... I had meant they don't work a job other than food service on the same train, meaning they don't work as a coach attendant but also as a dining car server on the same train.

Cross-training I knew was a thing as one of my favorites from the LA crew base is Barbara. She's been my waitress on the Chief and also my sleeper attendant on the Starlight.


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## railiner (Sep 16, 2018)

Anderson said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Dylan said:
> ...


Fair point's...The operating crew's have always been in "a class above" the other RR crews. And even of themselves, the engineer is at the top of the food chain, so-to-speak.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 16, 2018)

Since the pre-Iowa Pacific Hoosier State didn't carry a cafe car, the IP employee serving up food didn't replace an Amtrak employee, so the conductor can be given some leeway here in not supporting his fellow employees.


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## Skyline (Sep 17, 2018)

Cross-training may be seen as evil by some, but in my industry being able to do more than one job well increases personal job security. It can also help a company survive, which benefits both labor and management.


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## Triley (Sep 17, 2018)

railiner said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > North Carolina has vending machines on their lounge cars. They also stock free mini-bottles of water for all passengers. I can't remember if the coffee is free, or if it's a pay machine. The vending machines have always been well-stocled and working and the waters have all been well stocked when I rode the Piedmont trains.
> ...


I can't speak to how it was handled as far as titles go (was were both LSAs, or was one a SA?) But I can say that when there are two people working the Cascades, we're both LSAs. Just finished out my tour for the week of assisting fellow attendants between Seattle and Vancouver.
We still do the oatmeal, and Ivar's clam chowder as well. The oatmeal is steel cut, so we do cook it in bulk (by adding hot water and sitting it in a soup well) just before opening the car for service. The chowder as you should know is reheated in a microwave, but still turns out well. Was a real busy trip tonight, but I'd say I scooped just under 20 cups of it. It's good stuff.


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## OBS (Sep 17, 2018)

Triley said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Scooped 20 cups of it but did you serve any to the passengers also?


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## jis (Sep 17, 2018)

I have been curious as to how Amtrak unionized OBS pay compares to airline unionized cabin crew pay. The airline crew apparently has more specific safety role than the rail OBS crew in addition to just providing services too?


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## PRR 60 (Sep 17, 2018)

jis said:


> I have been curious as to how Amtrak unionized OBS pay compares to airline unionized cabin crew pay. The airline crew apparently has more specific safety role than the rail OBS crew in addition to just providing services too?


My impression is that the pay levels are comparable. Both are reasonable well paid with good benefits. In food and beverage testimony before Congress several years ago, the Amtrak IG quoted fully loaded compensation for an Amtrak food service employee at $41 per hour. Fully loaded does not equate to what they get paid. I remember my fully loaded compensation used for reimbursable work and I sure was not paid that number.

One big difference is that airline flight attendants are part of the operating crew with very specific operational duties. As such, they are also subject to hours of service and minimum rest period requirements. Amtrak on board service employees are not part of the operating crew and are not subject to hours of service limitations. There is no _operational _need for them. If an Amtrak train is short a food server or a sleeper attendant, it can still operate regulation. An aircraft short one flight attendant cannot.


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## rrdude (Sep 17, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Canadian is basically what amtrak had about 15 years ago before the "simplified dining service" that cut the staff down.


No, not even close, on a good day with Amtrak.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 17, 2018)

rrdude said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > The Canadian is basically what amtrak had about 15 years ago before the "simplified dining service" that cut the staff down.
> ...


How so?


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## railiner (Sep 17, 2018)

Found this old menu...I'd be very satisfied if it were still available today....





http://streamlinermemories.info/Amtrak/Amtrak81TrainFaremenu.pdf


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## Rail Freak (Sep 17, 2018)

railiner said:


> Found this old menu...I'd be very satisfied if it were still available today....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, especially the prices!!!


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## Amtrakfflyer (Sep 17, 2018)

Regional airlines, United Express, Delta Conection, American Eagle. CRJ, EMB 175s etc. The flight attendants all make close to minimum wage when duty hours are added in ( only paid when planes door is shut). 14 hour day with 6-7 hours flight time equals about $126 a day. ($18 per hour/7 hours). The time between flights which routinely can be 1-3 hours is paid only at a per diem of about $1.75 per hour. Some airlines are worse, Mesa, some are better Skywest, but cabin crew at that level all make $18-25,000 tops. No real retirement usually a 5 percent match to a 401k and a high deductible health care plan at $200 a month for employee.

Up until about a year ago the First Officers didnt make much more. With the pilot shortage F/Os now start at about $35,000 and get modest COLA increases til they make Captain. Captains at those airlines make in the $70,000-80,000 range with same benefits as noted. So basically theyre the only ones making head of household wages on the plane.

Yes its a pipeline to the majors for pilots but with the regionals making up half of the flying out there some people wont be moving up.

All things included Amtrak OBS have a good but demanding gig.


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## railiner (Sep 17, 2018)

Wonder what a "purser" or lead flight attendant makes on a trans-oceanic flight?


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## ehbowen (Sep 17, 2018)

An interesting comparison would be with employees on cruise ships. In 1990 I was working on a US-flag oil tanker making $27400 per year as an Oiler. However, our 2nd assistant engineer was coming off a stint on a foreign flag Caribbean cruise ship. He told me that he was paid $5000 per year...and as an American citizen he was the highest paid unlicensed crewman on the ship. The Captain was only making $11000 per year (in the mid-1980s). I was paid more as an E-5 in the Navy!


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 17, 2018)

Cruise ships are a totally different animal legally.


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## ehbowen (Sep 17, 2018)

Yes, especially the foreign flag vessels.


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## cocojacoby (Sep 17, 2018)

Amtrak food service employees get tips too.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 17, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> Yes, especially the foreign flag vessels.


are there any US cruise ships?


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## jis (Sep 17, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> Amtrak food service employees get tips too.


True. Unlike airline cabin crew.


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## CCC1007 (Sep 17, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, especially the foreign flag vessels.
> ...


I only know of one, Pride of America, which is operated by NCL.


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## PVD (Sep 17, 2018)

The Jones Act preserves some US Flag freight, but virtually all cruise ships are foreign, mostly flags of convenience. Regional airlines are always whining about the pilot shortage, and have been especially vocal about the raising of qualifications. They rather let jobs go unfilled than pay more to attract more candidates, and they don't have as robust a supply of ex military to draw from. They got away cheap for years, and want to keep it that way. Boo hoo.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 17, 2018)

Are we including ships that do just river cruises in the U.S.? If so, something like American Cruise Lines would be registered in the U.S.?


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## railiner (Sep 17, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, especially the foreign flag vessels.
> ...





CCC1007 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > ehbowen said:
> ...


That is the only full-sized, US registered cruise ship. There are some small coastal, great lakes, and river cruise ships....account of the Passenger Vessel Service Act...

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf


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## railiner (Sep 17, 2018)

PVD said:


> The Jones Act preserves some US Flag freight, but virtually all cruise ships are foreign, mostly flags of convenience. Regional airlines are always whining about the pilot shortage, and have been especially vocal about the raising of qualifications. They rather let jobs go unfilled than pay more to attract more candidates, and they don't have as robust a supply of ex military to draw from. They got away cheap for years, and want to keep it that way. Boo hoo.


The Jones Act applies to freight...the PVSA to passenger....


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## me_little_me (Sep 17, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> North Carolina has vending machines on their lounge cars. They also stock free mini-bottles of water for all passengers. I can't remember if the coffee is free, or if it's a pay machine. The vending machines have always been well-stocled and working and the waters have all been well stocked when I rode the Piedmont trains.
> 
> California has a different menu on their trains, as does the state sponsored Cascades trains. At one time the cascades operated the bistro car with 2 employees, allowing some foods prep on the train. For example, ordering oatmeal at breakfast you would get oatmeal spooned into a bowl from a pot with all the toppings like in a diner, not the usual add hot water to an instant tub like on most cafe cars. that was like 5 years ago though, may have changed.


When there was only a singe Piedmont, they had a blind man on board who sold BBQ and a few other items. Good, hot food. They dumped him but I don't know why.



crescent-zephyr said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, especially the foreign flag vessels.
> ...


River boats and other small ships that only ply U.S. waters.


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## cocojacoby (Sep 18, 2018)

CCC1007 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > ehbowen said:
> ...


Because it travels around Hawaii and has no foreign ports to go to. When I cruised to Alaska a few years ago I had to leave from Vancouver because of the Jones Act. Think of all of the commerce that is lost because those cruise ships can't leave from American ports. Example of laws and regulations that do more harm than good and do not achieve the intended purpose.

Speaking of laws and keeping on topic, what does Amtrak lose because it has to comply with local laws and regulations? For instance I remember being on a train many years ago and I couldn't get a drink because it was Sunday and we were in a "dry" state or county or something. Perhaps it won't add up to much but an airline doesn't have to close the bar because it is flying over a "dry" state. Can't Amtrak get an exemption to local laws?


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## pennyk (Sep 18, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> Speaking of laws and keeping on topic, what does Amtrak lose because it has to comply with local laws and regulations? For instance I remember being on a train many years ago and I couldn't get a drink because it was Sunday and we were in a "dry" state or county or something. Perhaps it won't add up to much but an airline doesn't have to close the bar because it is flying over a "dry" state. Can't Amtrak get an exemption to local laws?


I travel on the Silver Meteor quite often leaving Florida on a Sunday. Georgia is a dry State and dinner is usually served when in Georgia. There is usually an announcement stating that if passengers want to get an alcoholic beverage, they need to get it before the train crosses into Georgia. I usually purchase my beer or wine in the cafe car (while still in Florida) and bring it with me to the dining car when in Georgia.


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## railiner (Sep 18, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> Because it travels around Hawaii and has no foreign ports to go to. When I cruised to Alaska a few years ago I had to leave from Vancouver because of the Jones Act. Think of all of the commerce that is lost because those cruise ships can't leave from American ports. Example of laws and regulations that do more harm than good and do not achieve the intended purpose.


The Jones Act governs freight cabotage....it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act that regulates passenger traffic.

The airlines are also restricted from wholly domestic traffic in a foreign land. Or in what percentage of foreign ownership of a domestic airline is allowed.

It is interesting, that among the various modes, only railways are permitted to have full local traffic rights over their own lines in foreign countries (not via trackage rights). There are requirements for a separate 'corporation' for those lines, and local staffing as well.....


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## cpotisch (Sep 18, 2018)

railiner said:


> cocojacoby said:
> 
> 
> > Because it travels around Hawaii and has no foreign ports to go to. When I cruised to Alaska a few years ago I had to leave from Vancouver because of the Jones Act. Think of all of the commerce that is lost because those cruise ships can't leave from American ports. Example of laws and regulations that do more harm than good and do not achieve the intended purpose.
> ...


There's a bunch of text missing in your quote.


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## PVD (Sep 18, 2018)

The PVSA is pretty generous in what is allowed to foreign flagged ships, since they can leave and return to the same US port if they go to a foreign port and return with the same passengers. What business is lost? Not too many starving major cruise limes. There is a reason they keep buying more new ships every year, and they are getting bigger and bigger.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 18, 2018)

Not that I am some qualified business-man, but having traveled around the country through various methods and eaten at alot of "quick service" restaurants if I were to create an Amtrak food and beverage plan it would be this -

1 - Chef / Food prep employee

1- Sleeper Lounge Attendant. (physical diner or CCC type car)

Lunch / Dinner menu would consist of a few cooked items that can be mixed / matched with pre-prepared items to create a variety of dishes. For example, by cooking chicken breasts and salmon you can now prepare grilled chicken sandwich, grilled chicken entree, salmon entree, salad with grilled chicken, salad with grilled salmon, vegetarian entree salad, Vegetarian Burger. That's 7 options that only require chicken breasts, salmon, veggie patties, buns for chicken and veggie burgers, and the base salad. Now include a choice of 1 pre-made side (potato salad, chips, pasta salad,) and 1 pre-made dessert (cheesecake, chocolate mousse, package of gluten free cookies) and you're set.

Breakfast just make up a big batch of scrambled eggs, french toast, breakfast potatoes, bacon and sausage. Everything from that list can be quickly plated. Have some continental breakfast plates ready to go (yogurt, fruit, choice of cereal, croissant) and have a breakfast plate with choice of scrambled eggs or french toast.

The chef can pre-prepare some coach meals for lunch/ dinner (grilled chicken salad, grilled salmon salad, veggie salad) that can either be sold in the lounge or delivered at-seat by coach attendants.

This eliminates the service staff, which really aren't necessary. But the end result would be plated food prepared on board. Not boxed food prepared a few days ago.

It does eliminate the dining car as a diner, but I don't know how to keep the dining car as-is without it continuing to lose alot of money.


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## railiner (Sep 18, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > cocojacoby said:
> ...


I only wanted to respond to what I left in...I can't figure out how to remove the entire unwanted quote's when quoting a post......sorry....


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## Blackwolf (Sep 18, 2018)

In the case of the PVSA, it is a little deeper than just being flagged in the United States of America. The hull of the vessel is required to be built and launched in the USA, unless a waver is granted by an Act of Congress that must be renewed every so many years by another Act of Congress. Additionally, a US flagged vessel is required to adhere to USCG safety requirements and inspections (which are very strict), and all staff aboard in all departments must adhere to US labor and wage laws.

20 or more years ago, there were more US-built passenger hulls still in the water and thus a higher likelihood of US-flagged passenger vessels. Me and my family sailed aboard the US-flagged American Hawaii Cruises SS Independence, precursor to the NCL M/V Pride of America. Beautiful steam-powered ocean liner that was entirely US-crewed and was the last true US-flagged ocean-going passenger vessel still in service. I am no fan of the absurdly ugly PoA, but I remember that it was a three-ring circus to have the ship built by a US shipyard... And it was almost cancelled when AHC died during the post-9/11 tourist crash.


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## jis (Sep 18, 2018)

So then, is it a fair assessment that the US flagged passenger shipping industry - the transoceanic segment of it at least, was regulated out of existence?


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## the_traveler (Sep 18, 2018)

Could we please have the discussion be about the current subject (Amtrak) and not the cruise industry. Thank you.


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## Triley (Sep 18, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not that I am some qualified business-man, but having traveled around the country through various methods and eaten at alot of "quick service" restaurants if I were to create an Amtrak food and beverage plan it would be this -
> 
> 1 - Chef / Food prep employee
> 
> ...


I will repeat...there is no way one attendant can handle a sold out Builder or Starlight. I can't speak for other trains, but...this simply wouldn't work on many trains.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 18, 2018)

Well... Alter staffing as needed. If one attendant can handle the Capitol with 2 sleepers and a Transdorm, let's just say add an attendant when the train sells more than 2 full sleepers?

That solve the problem?


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## Anderson (Sep 19, 2018)

pennyk said:


> cocojacoby said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of laws and keeping on topic, what does Amtrak lose because it has to comply with local laws and regulations? For instance I remember being on a train many years ago and I couldn't get a drink because it was Sunday and we were in a "dry" state or county or something. Perhaps it won't add up to much but an airline doesn't have to close the bar because it is flying over a "dry" state. Can't Amtrak get an exemption to local laws?
> ...


Yep. More than once, I bought a Bailey's at lunch out of ORL/WPK/DLD and then ordered a coffee at dinner to have it in.


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## Skyline (Sep 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well... Alter staffing as needed. If one attendant can handle the Capitol with 2 sleepers and a Transdorm, let's just say add an attendant when the train sells more than 2 full sleepers?
> 
> That solve the problem?


If one attendant is "handling" two full sleepers and a transdorm, THAT is a problem in itself. Quality, availability of the attendant, and both employee and pax morale are bound to suffer.


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## tricia (Sep 19, 2018)

Might need two dining car staff: one to prepare food, and an LSA to take orders, sell alcohol, take payment from coach customers, and keep things tidy outside the kitchen in the dining car.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 19, 2018)

tricia said:


> Might need two dining car staff: one to prepare food, and an LSA to take orders, sell alcohol, take payment from coach customers, and keep things tidy outside the kitchen in the dining car.


That's what I was suggesting... 1 Chef / food prep and 1 LSA / Server.

That's 1 more staff than the Capitol and Lake Shore currently has, the additional staff would be cooking / preparing food on board.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 19, 2018)

Skyline said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Well... Alter staffing as needed. If one attendant can handle the Capitol with 2 sleepers and a Transdorm, let's just say add an attendant when the train sells more than 2 full sleepers?
> ...


Well... currently 1 attendant (an LSA) is handling all of the food and beverages for sleeping car passengers on the Capitol.. that train runs with 2 sleepers and a transdorm.


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## tricia (Sep 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> > Might need two dining car staff: one to prepare food, and an LSA to take orders, sell alcohol, take payment from coach customers, and keep things tidy outside the kitchen in the dining car.
> ...


I think your earlier post about this had a chef/food prep person working with a sleeping car attendant.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 19, 2018)

tricia said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > tricia said:
> ...


ahhh I had said "Sleeper Lounge Attendant" for some reason. Not sure why i typed that, I was trying to describe the job without saying LSA, thinking that maybe the Chef could handle the inventory and the LSA could be dropped down to an attendant / server. But yeah.. now I see where the confusion came from.

The sleeper attendants SHOULD help in this new sleeper lounge / diner concept, but I doubt they actually do.


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## tricia (Sep 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Wouldn't it have to be an LSA to handle cash sales of meals to coach passengers, and wine/beer?


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 19, 2018)

tricia said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > tricia said:
> ...


Under the current set-up yes. But they figured out how to drop the diner LSA on the Capitol prior to the "fresh" dining and on the City of New Orleans by putting the Cafe in the Diner / Lounge (aka Cross Country Cafe) Car.


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## OBS (Sep 19, 2018)

tricia said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > tricia said:
> ...


Any cash sales from the Diner...yes...as well as handle the paperwork.


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## OBS (Sep 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


You can make all kinds of changes to save money but you reach the point where any concept of SERVICE is abandoned.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 19, 2018)

OBS said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > tricia said:
> ...


It all depends on the people you have working. I got great service on the City of New Orleans diner with the 1 server handling everything. The food wasn't good.. but the server did all she could to make the experience good.

Some of the worst service I've gotten was on a fully staffed Coast Starlight diner that was only half filled. The LSA and crew did everything they could to make sure the passengers felt like a major inconvenience to them. The food on that Diner was quite good.

Guess which one I would rather repeat? The bad food with the 1 friendly server.


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## cpotisch (Sep 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Two totally different things. An LSA has to stay in that one car and do basically one task. An SCA has to turn down and turn up peoples' beds, bring meals to passengers' rooms if desired, provide coffee and juice, etc. They are not at all comparable.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 19, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Skyline said:
> ...


Just to be clear... when I said attendant... I was talking about an attendant in the lounge. I realize that is currently an LSA. I was being a bit too generic in my terms I see. ha.


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## cpotisch (Sep 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


I know. But you seemed to be saying that because one LSA can handle the passenger load of two sleepers and a trans-dorm, one SCA could also do so. And I strongly disagree with that.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 19, 2018)

Oh no that's not what I was meaning to say at all. I was never talking about SCA's at all.

I was saying 1 LSA currently handles 2 sleepers and 1 Transdorm of passengers on the Capitol. Triley said 1 LSA wouldn't work on a sold out empire builder or Starlight. So I said ok then add another attendant (in the lounge, like add another LSA, or a server or whatever you call them) when you get past 2 full sleepers.

In my mind I think of the title "attendant" being generic for an OBS position. That's where the confusion came from. Sorry about that.


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## cpotisch (Sep 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh no that's not what I was meaning to say at all. I was never talking about SCA's at all.
> 
> I was saying 1 LSA currently handles 2 sleepers and 1 Transdorm of passengers on the Capitol. Triley said 1 LSA wouldn't work on a sold out empire builder or Starlight. So I said ok then add another attendant (in the lounge, like add another LSA, or a server or whatever you call them) when you get past 2 full sleepers.
> 
> In my mind I think of the title "attendant" being generic for an OBS position. That's where the confusion came from. Sorry about that.


Oh, I see. Sorry to attack a point you weren't making.


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 19, 2018)

I surely appreciate the information posted by two members about the alcohol situation on the Silver Meteor when the train is in Georgia. I had no idea.


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## RPC (Sep 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The sleeper attendants SHOULD help in this new sleeper lounge / diner concept, but I doubt they actually do.


On the "fresh & contemporary" CL I took last summer the two SCAs were working very hard, helping load the bags, calling parties in the "lounge" and running bags back to the sleepers. I can't imagine the poor LSA being stuck with all the bagging and delivering in the lounge...


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## lordsigma (Sep 19, 2018)

Note that the request for proposals, while obviously a big part is aimed at LD, also includes looking at the NEC and state supported F&B. So they are looking for options across the board. Conceivably If you could lower the F&B costs in the NEC which finishes just Barely in the black According to past Amtrak reports, every extra dollar would make up for LD losses.


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## Skyline (Sep 19, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Oh no that's not what I was meaning to say at all. I was never talking about SCA's at all.
> ...



I also thought that. And though I know one SCA can handle two sleeping cars, even an additional transdorm, while another SCA sleeps, eats, or takes a break it's a horrible idea to make that a full-trip job description.


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## dlagrua (Sep 22, 2018)

One train being ignored for food service is the Cardinal. On our four trips on the Cardinal, the meals were heated and served by one FSA. The SCA helped out waiting tables. The food on the Cardinal is mediocre but certainly better than a boxed lunch as on other CHI trains.. If Amtrak is penny pinching on the food service perhaps an expansion of this business model can provide decent hot food while keeping costs down....... but costs are certainly not down for the sleeper passenger. I don't see outsourcing of food service saving Amtrak any money. They still have to pull a dining car and maintain it. They still need to provide sleeper space and food for some dining car personnel. While Amtrak tries in vain to make the dining cars profitable they should realize that this has never been done in railroad history. As Wick Moorman once said, "dining cars are part of the service" and I will add , they help sell tickets..


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## Triley (Sep 23, 2018)

RPC said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > The sleeper attendants SHOULD help in this new sleeper lounge / diner concept, but I doubt they actually do.
> ...


Plus I the CL, if I'm not mistaken...doesn't the LSA on the diner also run cafe car sales out of the car? Must be great service on that train...


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## PVD (Sep 23, 2018)

My last CL trip in June, there was a separate person handling the cafe sales, it was one and one.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 23, 2018)

PVD said:


> My last CL trip in June, there was a separate person handling the cafe sales, it was one and one.


But the cafe sales were handled from the "sleeper lounge" / CCC car?


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## PVD (Sep 23, 2018)

I am almost 100 % sure that is so, since I don't recall climbing the stairs when I walked around killing time while we waited for the downed tree to be moved.


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## bretton88 (Sep 23, 2018)

From reports, Amtrak has put the cafe back in the SSL. So the diner is for sleepers only.


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## PVD (Sep 23, 2018)

My trip was only a week into it, I would not be surprised if that change was made.


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## jis (Sep 24, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > My last CL trip in June, there was a separate person handling the cafe sales, it was one and one.
> ...


Not on the ride we had on the Cap within a week or two of the inauguration of the Contemporary blah blah (on the way back from the OTOL Railfest).

Cafe sales were in SSL. No Coach passenger was allowed in the CCC. There was some confusion when a Sleeper attendant invited folks to the Sleeper Lounge for a free drink, which was inadvertently broadcast in the Coaches and a bunch of Coach passengers showed up. They were then escorted out of the CCC in a somewhat disgruntled state including one guy who almost created enough of a scene to potentially get kicked off the train. Fortunately he did stop before that point was reached, and left the CCC.


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## cpotisch (Sep 24, 2018)

jis said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > PVD said:
> ...


I'm surprised only one guy created enough of a scene to nearly get kicked off the train. I've seen crews have miscommunications with coach passengers before, and I usually see quite a few people itching for a fight.


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