# Why no business class on commuter rail?



## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 2, 2008)

Why is it that commuter rail trains in the US don't ever seem to have a business class option? It's somehow seeming unlikely to me that it's really the case that nobody would want to pay for it if it were available.


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## AlanB (Nov 2, 2008)

If I had to guess, it's probably because then you get into the idea that the public is now subsidizing someone's luxury. Granted that you could probably charge more than enough so that there actually wouldn't be any subsidy, but the critics would still try to claim it's happening. Besides most commuter ops are busy trying to figure out how to get more people into a car, not less.

That said, the LIRR does of a sort, have a business class. During the summer and late spring/early fall, they run a special car called Hampton's Reserve Service. They used to call it the Cannonball years ago.

I don't believe that the seats are any different in this car, but you do get a reserved/guaranteed seat and there is an attendant that caters to you with drinks and snacks at your seat.

Also, there is a private group in NJ that for many years paid NJT to haul their private car on the bottom of one of NJT's commuter trains. I'm not sure if this is still happening though. Something in the back of my mind says that I recall reading a story that they finally gave up and disbanded.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 2, 2008)

AlanB said:


> If I had to guess, it's probably because then you get into the idea that the public is now subsidizing someone's luxury. Granted that you could probably charge more than enough so that there actually wouldn't be any subsidy, but the critics would still try to claim it's happening. Besides most commuter ops are busy trying to figure out how to get more people into a car, not less.


When we paid for the Big Dig to be more lanes wide than the minimum Interstate Highway standard of four lanes, we were also subsidizing someone's luxury. I think I've been through those tunnels less than once a year since they opened.

Is platform length vs train length really a huge problem for commuter ops these days? The MBTA Fitchburg Line trains that I see somewhat frequently are still single level, probably typically 4-5 coaches long.


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## AlanB (Nov 2, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > If I had to guess, it's probably because then you get into the idea that the public is now subsidizing someone's luxury. Granted that you could probably charge more than enough so that there actually wouldn't be any subsidy, but the critics would still try to claim it's happening. Besides most commuter ops are busy trying to figure out how to get more people into a car, not less.
> ...


The problem is that most of the public doesn't see it that way when we're talking about roads. But they do see it that way when we're talking about trains. There shouldn't be a difference, but there is.



Joel N. Weber II said:


> Is platform length vs train length really a huge problem for commuter ops these days? The MBTA Fitchburg Line trains that I see somewhat frequently are still single level, probably typically 4-5 coaches long.


Yes, I'm sure it's a problem for many ops today. If you can't platform all the coaches, then you need more time for loading and especially unloading, and you'll end up with carryby's because of it. Put in bi-levels or multi-levels and you increase loading and unloading times.

Try to lenghten the platforms and you then run into ADA rules that will often make the project far more expensive than just adding 80 feet of platform. And in a day and age where we can't even find enough money to buy more cars, fix up the current ones, buy new engines, and add new lines, money for longer/ADA updated plats just isn't there.


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## WhoozOn1st (Nov 2, 2008)

Back in the day, the North Shore Line had Electroliner commuter trains between Chicago and Milwaukee. If memory serves, these were premium (I guess you could call them business class) trains with special equipment, and included a cocktail car with a pretty decent food menu.







Electroliner at Illinois Railroad Museum. Following the North Shore's untimely demise, Electroliner trainsets ran around Philadelphia, perhaps with a new menu featuring cheesesteaks.

EDIT: A distant Acela forerunner?

EDIT 2: CTA's Skokie Swift runs on the only remaining North Shore track. It's a high-speed fun run.


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## Green Maned Lion (Nov 2, 2008)

LIRR and MetroNorth had them once. People screamed bloody murder about wasted tax dollars.


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## zoltan (Nov 2, 2008)

It's interesting; it's always optimal to charge a consumer as close as possibly to their reservation price, and business class is a good way of doing this. The issue is, on primarily low platform systems, more carriages = another conductor, and using existing carriages = more chance of upsetting commuters paying the normal price, who suffer reduced number of seats.


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## sechs (Nov 3, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Besides most commuter ops are busy trying to figure out how to get more people into a car, not less.


Considering that it costs approximately the same to buy, maintain, and haul a "coach" trailer as a "business class" one, it seems to me that moving fewer people in a car isn't a great use of the car, even if you can get those people to pay more. There are some commuter railroads that simply can't add cars to service fast enough.

Sound Transit recalled most of their leased sets to cover service expansion. Metrolink had at least one of those sets, and they were already short enough to be borrowing one of Caltrain's - which it needed back to cover increased ridership. I have no idea how VRE is covering the set that they have returned.


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## Trogdor (Nov 3, 2008)

sechs said:


> I have no idea how VRE is covering the set that they have returned.


VRE recently acquired a bunch of brand new gallery cars from Nippon Sharyo. I believe gallery cars now make up 100% of their fleet.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 6, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> Is platform length vs train length really a huge problem for commuter ops these days? The MBTA Fitchburg Line trains that I see somewhat frequently are still single level, probably typically 4-5 coaches long.


Actually, I saw an outbound Fitchburg Line train on Sunday and another on Monday, and they were both 6 coaches behind the locomotive. (And since then I saw part of another train at Porter Square through the window while I was in the subway portion of the station, but didn't see the whole train, so I couldn't count it.)


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## amamba (Nov 13, 2008)

I ride the Newburyport/Rockport line on the MBTA and it is often 6 coaches. It sometimes takes 5 minutes to load/unload the car at the Salem station because of this (the only "platform" is at the the end of the station for one car. I can't imagine one of our coaches going business class - there are plenty of people standing as it is. We desperately need bi-level coaches or more seating on this line.


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## JAChooChoo (Nov 13, 2008)

Back in 1994 MARC actually operated two parlor cars on its Brunswick line.

See "Riding the MARC Parlor Car" at http://www.bullsheet.com/news/199405.html


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## zoltan (Nov 14, 2008)

JAChooChoo said:


> Back in 1994 MARC actually operated two parlor cars on its Brunswick line.
> See "Riding the MARC Parlor Car" at http://www.bullsheet.com/news/199405.html


The MARC do operate a few trains - the Perryville and Martinsburg trains - that could do with food service on board, for the long journeys.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 14, 2008)

amamba said:


> I ride the Newburyport/Rockport line on the MBTA and it is often 6 coaches. It sometimes takes 5 minutes to load/unload the car at the Salem station because of this (the only "platform" is at the the end of the station for one car. I can't imagine one of our coaches going business class - there are plenty of people standing as it is. We desperately need bi-level coaches or more seating on this line.


If the Rotem coaches are configured the same way as the existing (Kawasaki?) bi-levels, that sounds like loading/unloading will only get worse, since people will have to walk up and down multiple staircases to get to the one car where the door is open. (And given the number of high level platforms in the system, I can't imagine they wouldn't be built to be one level, at high level platform height, at the end of each car.)

Are they going to lengthen the platform at some point in the future? IIRC, most of the discussion for Salem tends to be about a new parking garage.


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## amamba (Nov 19, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > I ride the Newburyport/Rockport line on the MBTA and it is often 6 coaches. It sometimes takes 5 minutes to load/unload the car at the Salem station because of this (the only "platform" is at the the end of the station for one car. I can't imagine one of our coaches going business class - there are plenty of people standing as it is. We desperately need bi-level coaches or more seating on this line.
> ...


I haven't heard any talk about renovating the "station" (which is just a wind swept piece of land on a river that is bitterly cold). There is no building nor really any shelter there, either. I think that the town is jockeying hard for a parking garage, which is of course needed, especially with the new court house going in. Frankly, I don't care so much about the parking since I walk to the station every day, but I can see why it would be good for the downtown.

Interesting to hear that loading/unloading takes a lot longer with the stairs. I hadn't really thought about it, but it absolutely makes sense. I guess the extra time will be worth it since there will be more seats available. I really like the new NJT bi-level coaches, and I hope that these Rotem cars will be like that. The other thing that the MBTA could do would be to adjust their schedules to accurately reflect the long time it takes to load/unload and so we don't arrive ten minutes late into Boston every morning.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 19, 2008)

The other thing that might help is running more trains on shorter headways, so that the same number of daily commuters requires less boarding time per train.

Of course, that has potential to require track upgrades to be able to run more trains; I don't know exactly how much excess capacity those tracks do or don't have right now.


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## amamba (Nov 19, 2008)

I don't think they can run them with shorter headways during the peak period, when they are every 10, 15 or 20 minutes anyway. The problem is that there is only one track through Salem and it bottlenecks the trains because they have to perfectly time them going north/south and vice versa.

In the morning, I can take a 7:29 (express), 7:34, 7:44 or 8:06 (express). All of these trains are already packed and I don't know if you could squeeze another one in there. The only thing they could do is add another train going south between 7:03 am and 7:29 am. That would help a lot, I suppose. The biggest problem in Salem is loading and unloading the express trains.


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## battalion51 (Nov 22, 2008)

rmadisonwi said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > I have no idea how VRE is covering the set that they have returned.
> ...


It's a little old, but I'll reply anyway. VRE AFAIK still owns a few Kawasaki Coaches and Cab Cars. I think a few may have been sold to MARC to supplement their fleet, but I think VRE still has a trainset or two. I don't know why VRE was so anxious to get rid of the Kawasaki Coaches, those things are so comfortable compared to the Gallery Cars.


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## AlanB (Nov 22, 2008)

battalion51 said:


> rmadisonwi said:
> 
> 
> > sechs said:
> ...


Nope. According to VRE all consists are now made up of gallery cars, be they old ones or new ones.

If they have any of the Kawasaki coaches and cab cars left in their posession, they aren't in daily service.


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## battalion51 (Nov 26, 2008)

Well I guess it's a good thing I did the photography I did in DC this summer, so I could grab my last shots of the Kawasaki coaches...still a little sad I didn't catch a Sounder set though.


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## AlanB (Nov 26, 2008)

battalion51 said:


> ...still a little sad I didn't catch a Sounder set though.


You wouldn't have liked the sound of them anyhow. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## battalion51 (Nov 27, 2008)

Glad to know your terrible jokes haven't left during my hiatus.


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## Morris&Essex (Dec 4, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Also, there is a private group in NJ that for many years paid NJT to haul their private car on the bottom of one of NJT's commuter trains. I'm not sure if this is still happening though. Something in the back of my mind says that I recall reading a story that they finally gave up and disbanded.


I recall reading in the Star Ledger within the past year that the Jersey Shore Commuters Club is still going strong. Also, the Wikipedia entry for the North Jersey Coast Line also has some info on them.


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 9, 2008)

I really wanna check that out.

Actually, one thing I've always wanted to do, business wise, was resurrect the Pullman company, or atleast their intent and model. Take over first class operation on the Acela for Amtrak, maybe. Buy all their sleepers and diners and operate them as separate operations. (And yeah, that would mean some increases in cost for food!) Buy the Amfleets as they went out of service (and perhaps some of the Heritage sleepers) and start operating a more extensive sleeping car network.

Use the Amfleets to introduce lie-flat open sleepers. Possibly buy some other old commuter cars (CDOT's Mafersa coaches would be a start) for conversion to sectional sleepers.

But most importantly, I intend to buy old commuter coaches and set them up as parlours and cafe/diner cars and operate them on commuter lines. There has to be a market for this.

Have them operated under contract with the commuter agency with the agency getting a cut of the ticket sales. The Parlours would be equipped with cab controls, and be designed to be used for that purpose. That way it could hang off the end of the platform in stations too short to accommodate it.

Maybe even contract with the commuter agencies to pull a string of them as express trains from a few choice destinations on the route (the ones that afford such things) as an extra-fare train. Extra fast-extra fine-extra fare.

I'm not talking about a return to the glory days, here. I'd probably offer "business class" on most of the trains I offer, in the form of, essentially, standard Amfleet coach. No its not really luxurious, but compare it to commuter seating! I'd probably offer the equivlent of 90s MetroClub seating as a "first class" on the extra fare train.

Maybe even get Amtrak to sell me the Club-Dinette cars and run that food service as "Club-Class" on trains that Amtrak already offers basic Business class.

Frankly, GrandeLuxe had the right idea with the GrandeLuxe Limited. They just over did it and charged far too much. Mark that up to Rader's incompetence. He had good ideas. He just isn't the right man to implement them.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Dec 9, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Actually, one thing I've always wanted to do, business wise, was resurrect the Pullman company, or atleast their intent and model. Take over first class operation on the Acela for Amtrak, maybe. Buy all their sleepers and diners and operate them as separate operations. (And yeah, that would mean some increases in cost for food!) Buy the Amfleets as they went out of service (and perhaps some of the Heritage sleepers) and start operating a more extensive sleeping car network.
> Use the Amfleets to introduce lie-flat open sleepers. Possibly buy some other old commuter cars (CDOT's Mafersa coaches would be a start) for conversion to sectional sleepers.


Are the sectional sleeper tickets actually going to be cheaper than Amtrak roomettes when you consider that Amtrak roomettes are probably more subsidized than private sectional cars? Or you do have some way around that issue?



Green Maned Lion said:


> Maybe even contract with the commuter agencies to pull a string of them as express trains from a few choice destinations on the route (the ones that afford such things) as an extra-fare train. Extra fast-extra fine-extra fare.


Is there some commuter agency I'm forgetting about that has way more track capacity than they know what to do with? MBTA Commuter Rail is near the limit on South Station capacity, and has significant amounts of single tracking which may prevent sigpnificant additions of north side service; NJT is unlikely to ever have spare capacity for such trains into Manhattan. Most of the rest of the commuter agencies seem to like running on freight tracks.



Green Maned Lion said:


> Frankly, GrandeLuxe had the right idea with the GrandeLuxe Limited. They just over did it and charged far too much. Mark that up to Rader's incompetence. He had good ideas. He just isn't the right man to implement them.


They also didn't support intermediate station stops at all, which severely limits the ability to use it for luxury transportation.


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 10, 2008)

Amtrak does not subsidize the price of the sleepers at all. Thats why they are so much more than coach.

NJ Transit, with the completetion of the ARC tunnel, should have excess capacity, since the capacity should effectively be doubled. As for the cars, they'd be mine, not theirs.

As I said, Joel, Rader was a fool. I'm not.


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