# Parlour Cars gone?



## Guest_Amtrak_flyer_* (Oct 6, 2006)

Saw on another website/email site Parlours are gone 10/30/06. Anyone confirm this? I know it has to happen eventually but for someone whos taken that train as much as I have, the news %^&*!


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## AmtrakLoverAndHater (Oct 6, 2006)

Amtrak.com still lists the Parlour Car as an amenity available only to first class passengers.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2006)

What is the Parlor Car??? Is it on the SW Chief or the Lakeshore Limited?


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## AlanB (Oct 7, 2006)

Guest said:


> What is the Parlor Car??? Is it on the SW Chief or the Lakeshore Limited?


No, it doesn't run on those trains. The Parlour car is a 50+ year-old railcar that Amtrak spruced up to run on the Coast Starlight several years ago. It runs as a special lounge car available only to sleeping car passengers and serves snacks, drinks, and other neat things during the journey.


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## jccollins (Oct 8, 2006)

Here's the current status of the five Pacific Parlour cars courtesy of a poster on "another" railroad discussion site:



> 39970: Was in service until arrival in SEA on 9 August. Then shopped for wheel work, and moved back to LAX 19 August. 90 day inspection completed, freon leaks repaired, and shoe holder pin replaced. Reported with b/o air conditioning on 10 September. Car still parked at LAX.
> 39972: Currently in service with Los Angeles arrival on 8 October.
> 
> 39973: Last service in January, 2006. Removed from train at KFS for broken pipe. Debris damage repaired at KFS and car returned to LAX on 5 January. Deadhead to BEE on 13 Jan. Currently shown as stored with no work being done.
> ...


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## Trogdor (Oct 8, 2006)

The rumor is, as they're due for any significant maintenance, they're being parked.


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## AlanB (Oct 8, 2006)

rmadisonwi said:


> The rumor is, as they're due for any significant maintenance, they're being parked.


Well that rumor certainly parallels the reality of the Heritage crew dorms, as well as those Amfleets that got mothballed this year. So it may well be more than rumor, sadly.


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## Anthony (Oct 13, 2006)

No more parlour cars or kiddie cars as of the new sched change. This is backed up by their omission in the new system timetable.


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## The Metropolitan (Oct 13, 2006)

Allright then, so how many of us are going to fly west after arriving on the last "Metroliner" and ride on the last Parlor Car voyage? j/k! 

Shame to see them go, but I think I can honestly imagine the headache they may have been to maintain as of late.


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## Anthony (Oct 13, 2006)

Well, with only 39972 operating at present, I suppose it'd be dishonest to continue advertising them. :-\


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## AlanB (Oct 13, 2006)

The Metropolitan said:


> Shame to see them go, but I think I can honestly imagine the headache they may have been to maintain as of late.


Well the real headache is Amtrak's failure to dedicate enough resources and money to keep them running. Amtrak has made things even worse of late, since in the past they used to substitute an extra Sightseer Lounge when a Parlour car was blanked. Now they are basically doing nothing, since setting up the lounge attendant in the A room of a sleeper with a few snacks and drinks hardly compares to having the actual Parlour car.


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## Trogdor (Oct 13, 2006)

The Metropolitan said:


> Allright then, so how many of us are going to fly west after arriving on the last "Metroliner" and ride on the last Parlor Car voyage? j/k!


The one problem with that plan is that it would be difficult to predict which consist would have it, or whether it will even make it to the end of the month.

I've personally ridden the Coast Starlight (part or all of the route) six times. Four of them in a sleeper (well, technically three; once I voluntarily downgraded to coach after Amtrak screwed things up during the mudslides a couple years ago, and reduced the Starlight to one sleeper after having sold two full sleepers worth of tickets...long story). Four times, my consist has had the Parlour car. Two of those times were while I was riding coach. My first two sleeper trips (including the downgrade to coach) on the Starlight were Parlourless. My third one was when I was finally able to ride in the Parlour car. The fourth time was just a short trip from Seattle to Portland, and, unfortunately, I was far too sick to leave my room and enjoy the rest of the train (another long story).

So, that hit-or-miss record is an example of how unreliable those cars have been in recent years.

I'd be curious to know if someone plans to buy one and make it their own personal private car. Any bi-level PVs out there?


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## Anthony (Oct 13, 2006)

Well, the one currently operating Parlour has been following a pretty predictable schedule for its past few runs. leave LAX on 14, arrive SEA, spend the night and return back to LAX on 11, skip a day, then leave on 14 again. If that maintains for the rest of the month, it might be possible to make a reservation with a reasonable likelihood of catching it.


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## battalion51 (Oct 13, 2006)

Cincy Railway bought a large number of pieces for use on their line including Hi-Liners and Amtrak F-40's. There is a very detailed list of where every Hi-Liner is and/or what happened to it. It should also be noted that some former Gallery Cars have gone into PV, particularly with Wisconsin Southern (I believe), but I don't believe there's as detailed of a list out there of those since so many were built and have been retired over the years.


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## rmgreenesq (Oct 14, 2006)

Anthony said:


> No more parlour cars or kiddie cars as of the new sched change. This is backed up by their omission in the new system timetable.


Silly question time: What is a "kiddie car"?

Rick


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## battalion51 (Oct 14, 2006)

A few years back the managers for the Coast Starlight converted 5 Superliner II Coaches to what have been dubbed Kiddie Cars. Basically they removed the seats from the downstairs seating area and turned it into a small play area for kids. I believe the room had board games, room to color, and other such ammenities. Anyone who's traveled with a child (as you full well know Rick) knows that having room for them to be able to move around and just be kids is vital, especially on long train rides. The other added bonus is that this is an environment that has a door so the kids can do as they wish and parents don't have to worry about disturbing fellow passengers.


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## AlanB (Oct 14, 2006)

They also have it set up to show kiddie movies in that same room.


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## Guest_Amtrak_flyer_* (Oct 14, 2006)

One Parlour Car is still running at least for now. I'm going to try to ride it this week if I can narrow it down, looks like it leaves LA tomorrow for the 4 day RT to Seattle, I'm shooting for Wed from the bay area down to LA. Let you know what happens..


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## AmtrakFan (Oct 14, 2006)

When I rode the Parlor's 3 Years ago the car we had 39975 NB we had a Lounge going back long story why, was just out of Beech Grove with only interior upgrades, the eletrical panels and the eletrical cabinet were all the same from before and the AC took a dump on the 2nd day, hotter then hell. They didn't replace the AC or anything esle eletrical, so I can see where Amtrak would park them. Are the Kiddie Cars going in Storage or will they be reconverted back to full Coaches?


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## battalion51 (Oct 14, 2006)

I'd be willing to guess that they'll be converted back to normal coaches.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2006)

Guest_Amtrak_flyer_* said:


> One Parlour Car is still running at least for now. I'm going to try to ride it this week if I can narrow it down, looks like it leaves LA tomorrow for the 4 day RT to Seattle, I'm shooting for Wed from the bay area down to LA. Let you know what happens..



39972 is parked at LAX pending a periodic/routine inspection Monday.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2006)

39975 is back in service and was on 14(14) as its first trip after maintenance.


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## rmgreenesq (Oct 17, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> A few years back the managers for the Coast Starlight converted 5 Superliner II Coaches to what have been dubbed Kiddie Cars. Basically they removed the seats from the downstairs seating area and turned it into a small play area for kids. I believe the room had board games, room to color, and other such ammenities. Anyone who's traveled with a child (as you full well know Rick) knows that having room for them to be able to move around and just be kids is vital, especially on long train rides. The other added bonus is that this is an environment that has a door so the kids can do as they wish and parents don't have to worry about disturbing fellow passengers.


Thanks Battalion & Alan:

As the proud owner of a four year old, a kiddie car sounds like a useful thing. My daughter thinks trains are the green line of the T in Boston. Little does she know that you _can_ ride the trian to Grandma's house, albeit in a little more comfore than the T's hardback anti-grafiti chairs.

I was wondering if the conductor would let us sit downstairs on the SW Chief even though we did not pay the fare for the priviledge of sitting down there. There appears to be more room for a kid to be a kid, and fewer passengers to annoy. I'll let y'all know what the conductors say.

Rick


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## AlanB (Oct 17, 2006)

rmgreenesq said:


> I was wondering if the conductor would let us sit downstairs on the SW Chief even though we did not pay the fare for the priviledge of sitting down there. There appears to be more room for a kid to be a kid, and fewer passengers to annoy. I'll let y'all know what the conductors say.


Technically there is no premium fare for sitting downstairs on a Superliner coach. Because of how Arrow works, sometimes a lower level seat will cost more than an upper level seat, but that doesn't happen often to my knowledge.

That said, some conductors don't seem to like seating people downstairs who don't have mobility issues, but you may well luck out. I suppose that you could also call Amtrak at this point and see if they can switch your tickets to the lower level without penalty.

If not, then the best advice I can give you is to spread the wealth around. Spend some time in your coach, some time in the lounge, and some time in the dining car and life should be good.


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## TransAtlantic (Oct 18, 2006)

In general, a four-year-old would NOT be a welcome addition to a lower-level seating area; in addition to those with disabilities, there are lots of senior citizens down there, and while they adore kids for short stretches, they generally prefer a quieter, calmer space than the presence of the average four-year-old would permit. If you're going a long distance, say CHI-LAX, check with the train attendant about getting the seat next to his/hers at the rear of the last coach car. There's a little extra play/sleep/storage space, and not as much "through traffic" from passengers coming by.


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## sechs (Oct 19, 2006)

I seem to remember some trains pulling an extra sightseer lounge on the rear just for kids during the summer months, but that was a few years ago.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2006)

Someone talked to the Coast Starlight Service Manager to find out when that last day of the Parlour Car would be. He said he couldn't say because there STILL is a debate at the highest levels about what to do about them. Two vice presidents, Fromaux and Crosbie want to keep them.


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## Guest_Amtrak_flyer_* (Oct 21, 2006)

Thanks for the update. I'll be on 11 tomorrow (sunday) out of san jose we'll see what happens.


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## amtrak_flyer (Oct 23, 2006)

Rode on 11 today (sunday) san jose-LA-San diego. Parlour 39775 was in service, appeared in good shape. Trip went smooth. According to customer service supervisor doing surveys on train, no decision has been made yet on the Parlour cars. He suggested sending an email from the website, he stressed that emails and letters are being taken very seriously at this point.


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## DaveKCMO (Oct 23, 2006)

i received this reply from amtrak.com today:



> Thank you for contacting us.
> You are correct. As of October 30th, the Pacific Parlor Car on the Coast Starlight will be taken off the train.
> 
> (It may not be available of every train even before the 30th.)
> ...


guess that ends the discussion, eh?


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## haolerider (Oct 23, 2006)

From other forums, there seems to be some difference of opinion on whether or not they will be coming off. I would suggest everyone who has an interest in these cars send emails and call to share your opinions.

I would send them to Customer Service and ask that they be forwarded to the appropriate Vice President and to the CEO.


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## Hoop (Oct 23, 2006)

> Thank you for contacting us. You are correct. As of October 30th, the Pacific Parlor Car on the Coast Starlight will be taken off the train.
> 
> (It may not be available of every train even before the 30th.)
> 
> ...



Yes, it is of assistance. It assists me to fly instead of riding the train. :angry: 

I was told the same by them on the phone the other day. Aparently all Customer Service has been told this information. Yet, there are still rumors that a Parlour may still run after 10/30 if available (but not advertised), and there is still an internal battle going on about wether to save them or scrap them.


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## haolerider (Oct 23, 2006)

I am sure there are regular riders on the West Coast who simply love the Parlour Cars, but for the majority of the long distance trains in the nation wide system, the Parlour Car is not important. When the improved and upgraded services were introduced on the Coast Starlight, the Parlour Cars, libraries, kiddie cars, wine tastings were all tremendous improvements, however given the congressional mandates and the focus on costs, these kinds of amenities cannot be supported by the prices charged for tickets and the associated labor costs prohibit their continuation.

Would I like to see them continue? Yes, or course, but it is not the end of the world if they don't - and it is a good thing to eliminate them if they are too expensive to repair and if the labor and mechanical costs are not met by potential revenue.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2006)

This is really sad. I'm glad I got to ride a mere 4 times.


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## AlanB (Oct 23, 2006)

haolerider said:


> I am sure there are regular riders on the West Coast who simply love the Parlour Cars, but for the majority of the long distance trains in the nation wide system, the Parlour Car is not important. When the improved and upgraded services were introduced on the Coast Starlight, the Parlour Cars, libraries, kiddie cars, wine tastings were all tremendous improvements, however given the congressional mandates and the focus on costs, these kinds of amenities cannot be supported by the prices charged for tickets and the associated labor costs prohibit their continuation.
> Would I like to see them continue? Yes, or course, but it is not the end of the world if they don't - and it is a good thing to eliminate them if they are too expensive to repair and if the labor and mechanical costs are not met by potential revenue.


I'd agree with you regarding the PPC's (Pacific Parlour Cars), as they are 50+ year old cars, they require an LSA to staff them, along with other associated expenses. I agree that it would be nice to see them continue, but in light of the expenses and the congressional mandates, I can reluctantly understand their being retired. 

I would however have to disagree on the retirement of the Kiddie cars. These are basically standard Superliner cars, no different overall from any other Superliner car currently in use on 70% of the long distance services that Amtrak runs. Yes there is a little extra expense in terms of the movies shown and keeping the toys and games in the car, but overall it really costs little more to run this car when compared to any other Superliner coach. And the loss of revenue from the removed lower level seating is little different than the revenue lost by a coach/baggage car.

On the other hand, unless Amtrak was to convert still more Superliner coaches to Kiddie cars so as to expand this service to other routes, personally I think that the 5 existing Kiddie cars would make more sense running on the Auto Train than on the Coast Starlight.


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## sechs (Oct 24, 2006)

haolerider said:


> I would suggest everyone who has an interest in these cars send emails and call to share your opinions.
> I would send them to Customer Service and ask that they be forwarded to the appropriate Vice President and to the CEO.


Tell me what to say and exactly where to send it....


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## frj1983 (Oct 24, 2006)

The Metropolitan said:


> Allright then, so how many of us are going to fly west after arriving on the last "Metroliner" and ride on the last Parlor Car voyage? j/k!
> Shame to see them go, but I think I can honestly imagine the headache they may have been to maintain as of late.


I agree that they must be a headache to repair...since they are so old, I wonder if Amtrak shop forces are having to fabricate their own parts to keep them running? And how long can they honestly do that before the cost overwhelms their meager shop budget? I too would be sorry to see them go!


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## STL Amtrak Fan (Oct 24, 2006)

AlanB said:


> I'd agree with you regarding the PPC's (Pacific Parlour Cars), as they are 50+ year old cars, they require an LSA to staff them, along with other associated expenses. I agree that it would be nice to see them continue, but in light of the expenses and the congressional mandates, I can reluctantly understand their being retired.



I was talking (via email) with the LSA that staffed my one and only train trip with my brother earlier this spring about the PPC and his job. If I understood him correctly, they removed the LSA position from the PPC and substituted an OBS. That meant no more adult beverages could be sold from that car. My LSA took a position in the Siteseer lounge and hates it. He was the life of the PPC and made my trip truly memorable. I loved that car so much that I spent 80% of my time in it (partly because I'm a huge Santa Fe passenger train fan). The fact that I could run up a small tab only added to my enjoyment.

I am thankful I got the chance.


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## National Limited (Oct 24, 2006)

Are there pictures anywhere on the web of the interior of these Parlour Cars?


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## Hoop (Oct 24, 2006)

National Limited said:


> Are there pictures anywhere on the web of the interior of these Parlour Cars?


I have many pictures I could email or post on this board if there is a way to do so.

If you have a subscription to Trainorders.com here is a thread with pictures of the PPC's:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read...296#msg-1238296


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## 1702 (Oct 24, 2006)

National Limited said:


> Are there pictures anywhere on the web of the interior of these Parlour Cars?


One of the replies in the following thread has some very nice interior photos-

http://www.railforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimateb...ic/11/4242.html


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## gswager (Oct 24, 2006)

I had a chance to ride on PPC few years ago. It was a very luxurious first-class! The seats are so comfortable and the free drinks! I reluctantly agree that the PPC is expensive to run, and it's sad to see let it go.

The only way to continue using PPC is to rent a private dome car. Sadly, it is expensive to rent unless we'll do it all together.


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## GG-1 (Oct 25, 2006)

National Limited said:


> Are there pictures anywhere on the web of the interior of these Parlour Cars?


Aloha

Here is a picture from my Coast Starlight Gallary




If you want more, you can see the entire Gallary here.


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## Jim vanMerris (Oct 26, 2006)

I WAS ON THE PARLOUR CAR TODAY - AND YESTERDAY WITH THE PRESIDENT OF AMTRAK AND OTHER OFFICIALS. WORD IS, THEY'VE BEEN SAVED! LOBBYING THAT TOOK PLACE WITHIN THE LAST 36 HOURS. I took the Coast Starlight from Seattle to LA last Tuesday and returned this Tuesday - wine tasteing in the Parlour Car! But get this: they've fired all the licensed wine professionals who could sell the wine that's tasted and replaced them within the last 36 hours with a car attendent who couldn't even pronounce the grape types! To save money, they say, but really because the Bush admin wants to ruin the middle and lower classes - force them to buy gasoline or fly jets. Please pray for an admin change soon and write your representitives! Food on board is now largely pre-cooked and NO MORE BACON!! (Among many other changes over the last 6 months). SAVE OUR TRAINS! (I have many pics taken Oct. 24-25).



The Metropolitan said:


> Allright then, so how many of us are going to fly west after arriving on the last "Metroliner" and ride on the last Parlor Car voyage? j/k!
> Shame to see them go, but I think I can honestly imagine the headache they may have been to maintain as of late.


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## Trogdor (Oct 26, 2006)

If your report is true, that's certainly good news. However, even though I personally tend to agree with your political sentiment, please refrain from making overly political statements on this forum that don't directly relate to passenger rail (i.e. your comments regarding the middle & lower classes). I find that those comments tend to spark needless arguments on the forum and don't really advance the cause of passenger rail.


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## James vanMerris (Oct 27, 2006)

Sorry for the political angle, if it wasn't related - let's just say that "privatizing" (if I spelled that right) has been the stated purpose for the bleeding of Amtrak for may years. It's no secret. During my 4 day and 2 nights on the Starlight I didn't know about the mechanical problems, but I don't see why repeated repairs on a particular train's favorite car is any less a mentionable than up-keep on the drive units or any other car (30 hours of maintanence is required for each hour a fighter jet is in the air <_< , just for comparison). In closeing, I promise to add whatever I learn about Amtrak - as I repeatedly take it to and from Chicago as well as California. Until now, the loss of the smoking car on the Northern run was my biggest gripe but it sure doesn't compare to current problems. Thank you.



rmadisonwi said:


> If your report is true, that's certainly good news. However, even though I personally tend to agree with your political sentiment, please refrain from making overly political statements on this forum that don't directly relate to passenger rail (i.e. your comments regarding the middle & lower classes). I find that those comments tend to spark needless arguments on the forum and don't really advance the cause of passenger rail.


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## frj1983 (Oct 27, 2006)

> Sorry for the political angle, if it wasn't related - let's just say that "privatizing" (if I spelled that right) has been the stated purpose for the bleeding of Amtrak for may years. It's no secret. During my 4 day and 2 nights on the Starlight I didn't know about the mechanical problems, but I don't see why repeated repairs on a particular train's favorite car is any less a mentionable than up-keep on the drive units or any other car (30 hours of maintanence is required for each hour a fighter jet is in the air <_< , just for comparison). In closeing, I promise to add whatever I learn about Amtrak - as I repeatedly take it to and from Chicago as well as California. Until now, the loss of the smoking car on the Northern run was my biggest gripe but it sure doesn't compare to current problems. Thank you.


But James,

These cars are pretty much 50 years old and the company that built them is long gone. Where are they getting the parts? A friend I know who works for Amtrak maintenance tells me that shop forces fabricate them. This has to be very expensive and must take lots of time. So I don't think your comparison with fighter jet maintenance holds. I can understand Amtrak's reluctance to continue to use the Parlour Cars. Perhaps it's time for the company to put out bids for new equipment? My fervent Hope!

(edited to fix quote - AmtrakWPK)


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## yarrow (Oct 27, 2006)

rmadisonwi said:


> If your report is true, that's certainly good news. However, even though I personally tend to agree with your political sentiment, please refrain from making overly political statements on this forum that don't directly relate to passenger rail (i.e. your comments regarding the middle & lower classes). I find that those comments tend to spark needless arguments on the forum and don't really advance the cause of passenger rail.


i agree that aimless political rants aren't needed. i also think we cannot consider passenger rail in isolation. if we were in al gore's second term instead of bush's, i believe, we would be having different and more optimisitic discussions of the future of amtrak and passenger rail. being from the "middle and lower classes" i feel the bush administration and friends have no concern for my transportation needs,my family budget or the environment. to advance the cause of passenger rail we must be politically active.


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## amtrak_flyer (Oct 27, 2006)

*Unfortunetly everything about Amtrak is political. *

David Gunn's Firing. Mineta's nationwide tour of blatant untruths (lies). Mica's and Mc Cains privitazation ideas in Congress. Trent Lott and the others trying to push 1516 through the senate for the good of Amtrak. Senator Menedez of NJ extreme distrust of the Amtrak board of Bush appointees. I could go on forever.

Everythings connected but this is an Amtrak Forum, I think most of us are smart enough to put two and two togteher.

Back to topic, I hope the Parlour cars are saved. When I was on last week the onboard supervisor traveling said they were getting alot of feedback from travelers concerning keeping the parlour car. Everyone forgets a few High level cars still ride the rails everyday on the heartland flyer. The parlours can be maintained if the will to do so is there.


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## battalion51 (Oct 27, 2006)

FRJ, a great number of the parts for the elder members of the fleet do have to be machined as you thought, which is time consuming and expensive. This is a large part of the reason why a great deal of the Heritage fleet is being retired. The Parlour cars however are a different animal IMHO. These cars were customized specifically for the Starlight and have a great deal of features inside of them. I've inserted some photos below.


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## frj1983 (Oct 27, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> FRJ, a great number of the parts for the elder members of the fleet do have to be machined as you thought, which is time consuming and expensive. This is a large part of the reason why a great deal of the Heritage fleet is being retired. The Parlour cars however are a different animal IMHO. These cars were customized specifically for the Starlight and have a great deal of features inside of them. I've inserted some photos below.


Don't get me wrong Battalion51,

I like the Parlour cars and would hate to see them go, but in the penny-wise, pound foolish world of the Amtrak budget, I worry that the writing is on the wall!


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## battalion51 (Oct 27, 2006)

I'm not disagreeing, but none of us really know how great the condition of these cars are. It could be possible that all the parts are working soundly, they just have wheel issues (for example) which are fairly unrelated to the car and probably cheaper to fix than most mechanical issues.


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## frj1983 (Oct 27, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> I'm not disagreeing, but none of us really know how great the condition of these cars are. It could be possible that all the parts are working soundly, they just have wheel issues (for example) which are fairly unrelated to the car and probably cheaper to fix than most mechanical issues.


Good point!

Even my friend here in Chicago doesn't really know what kind of shape they are in(since they're serviced on the West Coast). Maybe someone on the Board who lives out thattaway might know?????


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## Jim vanMerris (Oct 28, 2006)

I can shed light on the wheel issue: The wheel assemblies of the Parlour Car are brand new (or well refurbished). I carefully assessed whatever machanics I could this week and during a stop, noticed that the wheel assemblies were not only (seemingly) new but marked with their date of installation: 10-16-06. On our way TO L.A. on October 17th employees told us that the 2 parlour cars (for 8 trains) were history. Then we heard that they were undergoing repair for airconditioning issues. Luckily, exactly a week later as we took the Starlight back to Seattle, we had the parlour car as the car just behind our sleeper (complete with Amtrak president, et al, as mentioned earlier). On board also was a fellow who owned his "own railroad" called the Pony Express. He was there to meet the Amtrak big shots (they all wore these big laminated cards around their necks). They all got off at Santa Monica (and seemed very jovial, as when Madi Albright met Kim Jung Il - who knows what they were so happy about!) Another passinger told us some of what transpired: that the Parlour cars had JUST been saved....in D.C. Other than the wheel assemblies and the airconditioning and perhaps the heating (and electrics) what else is so difficult to fix? Sorry but I stick to my theory that the powers that be just want to end trains in America - before the off-year elections - while they still can. Perhaps it's too late, thank God.



frj1983 said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not disagreeing, but none of us really know how great the condition of these cars are. It could be possible that all the parts are working soundly, they just have wheel issues (for example) which are fairly unrelated to the car and probably cheaper to fix than most mechanical issues.
> ...


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## GG-1 (Oct 28, 2006)

battalion51 said:


>


This picture seems way different from any Car I saw on the Starlight. Is it an older one previously retired.

Mahalo


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## battalion51 (Oct 28, 2006)

Eric, I've never actually been on the Starlight, heck I've never even seen it. I did a quick Google search and that came back.


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## Anthony (Oct 28, 2006)

GG-1 said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



That's the lower level of the refurbished Parlour cars (movie theater).


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## battalion51 (Oct 28, 2006)

You know it's funny, it looks like those seats have desks similar to what a college lecture hall would have. I guess they put it there so you can put down your food.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2006)

Apparently 39974 just came back into service - that makes three Parlours in service.


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## jimmyneoncom (Oct 28, 2006)

"Apparently 39974 just came back into service - that makes three Parlours in service."

If there are 3 parlour cars than it seems many of the Amtrak workers understand what's going on about as well as the rest of the public, not at all - everyone I spoke to told me that there were only 2 such cars. I guess the higher-ups at Amtrak don't brief the train workers. There was a lot of confusion on board a few days ago. Bye the way, I sat in the second row, on the left, in the isle seat on Tuesday night last watching a movie in the lower level of the parlour car. I was the only one there (the only cool car - the rest of the train seemed overly warm). Speaking of warm: I usually have to sleep unclothed and some times wetted down just to be comfortable in the sleepers - I was told that attendants were given firm instructions to keep the rooms at 72º, even in the middle of the night. A conspiracy minded fellow might make something of that...


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## AlanB (Oct 28, 2006)

jimmyneoncom said:


> If there are 3 parlour cars than it seems many of the Amtrak workers understand what's going on about as well as the rest of the public, not at all - everyone I spoke to told me that there were only 2 such cars. I guess the higher-ups at Amtrak don't brief the train workers. There was a lot of confusion on board a few days ago.


Well one needs to clarify exactly what you and the employee's are talking about. If you mean that there were only 2 cars in service, then that was correct for a while. For most of the past month only one was actually in daily service.

However, Amtrak owns 5 Parlour cars, not 2 or even 3. The plan has always been to have 3 in daily service, 1 held in reserve, and 1 out for maintenace. For most of the last 10 years or so, Amtrak managed to keep with that plan by and large. This year however has seen major problems in keeping the needed cars on the road. Part of the problem was UP causing huge delays to the Coast Starlight, part of the problem has been simply keeping the cars on the road.

It is unclear if the problem with keeping them on the road has been due to their age or due to a lack of willingness by Amtrak management to spend the needed monies to keep them on the road. Perhaps it's even a combination of both.


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## Trogdor (Oct 28, 2006)

You sure about the "3 in daily service" part? The Coast Starlight requires four trainsets for daily service.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2006)

rmadisonwi said:


> You sure about the "3 in daily service" part? The Coast Starlight requires four trainsets for daily service.



That's right. When things run as planned there are 4 in service daily.


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## sechs (Oct 29, 2006)

It seems to me that the Coast Starlight *used* to run with only three train sets. This is obviously impossible under the current schedule.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2006)

sechs said:


> It seems to me that the Coast Starlight *used* to run with only three train sets. This is obviously impossible under the current schedule.




Daliy departures from both LA and Seattle mandates 4 train sets.


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## battalion51 (Oct 29, 2006)

Under the current circumstances that is true. It is possible to only need three trainsets and still maintain daily departures, IIRC the Silver Meteor did this until 2004.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2006)

Guest said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to me that the Coast Starlight *used* to run with only three train sets. This is obviously impossible under the current schedule.
> ...



Please expalin how a train leaving both SEA and LAX everyday is possible with 3 train sets.


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## Trogdor (Oct 29, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> Under the current circumstances that is true. It is possible to only need three trainsets and still maintain daily departures, IIRC the Silver Meteor did this until 2004.


What does the Silver Meteor have to do with the Coast Starlight's consist requirements?


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## battalion51 (Oct 29, 2006)

The point I was making is that it is theoretically possible to have daily departures for an LD train but only need three trainsets.


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## Trogdor (Oct 29, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> The point I was making is that it is theoretically possible to have daily departures for an LD train but only need three trainsets.


Such as the Capitol Limited (if its consist wasn't through-routed with the Southwest Chief), City of New Orleans (same deal), etc. In fact, if the Capitol Limited's schedule was modified slightly with a later departure from DC, along with quicker servicing, the route could operate with two trains.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> Such as the Capitol Limited (if its consist wasn't through-routed with the Southwest Chief), City of New Orleans (same deal), etc. In fact, if the Capitol Limited's schedule was modified slightly with a later departure from DC, along with quicker servicing, the route could operate with two trains.



The Coast Starlight Route can not operate with less than four train sets and stiil offer daily departures at each end.


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## sechs (Oct 30, 2006)

Yes it could; it just can't do it in the time it currently takes to run the train one way.

Instead of seeing the route as two halves, each one way between the origin and destination, you see it as three segments, each two-thirds of one way, then it makes a lot more sense. The train set that arrives, let's say, in Los Angeles could turn the same day, taking care of the arrival and departure of the train that day. Then you would only need the train that left Seattle that day and will arrive in Seattle that day.


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## jimmyneoncom (Oct 30, 2006)

The number of Coast Starlight trains becomes more understandable while you are on the route and observing the trains that pass you or stop next to you. If it takes 2 days and one night (36 hours) to go from LA to Seattle and trains leave from Seattle at approx. 9:50 am and leave LA at approx. 10:50 am, then you'd need, what, a train leaving every 24 hours? Please, someone figure out how many trains are needed...I only :unsure: have my degree in art...



sechs said:


> Yes it could; it just can't do it in the time it currently takes to run the train one way.
> Instead of seeing the route as two halves, each one way between the origin and destination, you see it as three segments, each two-thirds of one way, then it makes a lot more sense. The train set that arrives, let's say, in Los Angeles could turn the same day, taking care of the arrival and departure of the train that day. Then you would only need the train that left Seattle that day and will arrive in Seattle that day.


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## Trogdor (Oct 30, 2006)

Assuming the train will actually be serviced in Los Angeles, how could it depart LA the same day it arrives?


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2006)

The Coast Starlight Route can not operate with less than four train sets and stiil offer daily departures at each end. wink.gif

It's impossible.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Oct 30, 2006)

I'll start with the "Meteor" since it was mentioned (and that is the one I always worked), then talk about the "Starlight."

The "Meteor" is a MIA based train which currently uses four trainsets to make up the trip cycles. Prior to 2004 as bat51 mentioned, it used three. This was possible by because of the 7:00 AM departure out of MIA and the 10:20 AM arrival into NYP the next day. After arrival at NYP, while the OBS crew went to the hotel for their day room accomodations, the train went to SSY for cleaning, mechanical, etc. At 4:00 PM the OBS crew left the hotel to report to the train at SSY, at which that about 5:30 PM we were permitted to board the equipment and begin setting up the train. NYC reddie crew was only available to assist our MIA/JAX OBS crews with the delivery of the stock, etc. We had to do the actual set up of our train. A yard conductor and engineer then moved the train at about 6:15 PM to NYP station. Last minute stuff such as the pre-trip inspections (some of which were made at the yards) were made such as the brake test, etc, and the train was turned over to the outbound T&E personel (engineer and conductors). The train left NYP around 7:00 PM for the return trip to FL. At that time of day there were three trainsets in operation covering the "Silver Meteor." Along with us leaving NYP, there was that day's #98 which had left MIA some twelve hours earlier that morning, and the day before's train out of NYP which was nearing the end of it's trip somewhere around SBG-WPB (if they were all on-time that is..... LOL).

I believe the "Starlight" still uses four trainsets due to all the time in the schedule (for obvious reasons we'll leave unsaid here). If my memory serves me correct, the "Starlight" operated in this same fashion as the "Meteor" only with LAX as the turn around point for th equipment. This train is a LAX based train and was so at that time, so the OBS crew still had a four day trip total to SEA with that overnight there as well as the equipment. But on the day they arrived home from their trip at LAX, the train was cleaned and ready for the outbound OBS crew starting their first day of their trip. If the train was staffed out of SEA crewbase, then managment probably could have scheduled the OBS crews on a three day cycle like the "Meteor" in the East.

Over in NOL, the "City" operates in the same fashion as the "Meteor," but the equipment is "run-through" (as previously mentioned by another poster). The NOL based OBS crew still "day-rooms" and leaves out of CHI on the same day they arrive, thus allowing a three day cycle for their schedule. I think the "City's" equipment turns for the "Texas Eagle?" (not sure about that one......... how bout it trainboy... you worked the City of NOL)

So all in all, it mainly depends on how the scheduling is handled. I not sure about the "Starlight" and the "City of NOL," but the "Meteor" didn't have a whole heck of a lot of padding in its schedule at the time it operated with three trainsets. And like the "Starlight" is now, it is virtually impossible to accomplish that with all the varibles involved.

OBS....


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## AmtrakFan (Oct 30, 2006)

OBS,

The CNO Turns to the Texas Eagle, before that it turned the Empire Builder.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Oct 30, 2006)

AmtrakFan said:


> OBS,The CNO Turns to the Texas Eagle, before that it turned the Empire Builder.



I thought it did at one time turn to the "Builder," but wasn't sure.

I will have to consult with one of my co-workers who transfered back home to LAX from MIA a couple of years ago. He has twenty years of service along with working the "Starlight", so he will be able to correct me if I am wrong in my previous post. Hopefully he will see this. I am almost sure, but I just can't fully remember as I haven't spent much time at LAX crewbse. When your on vacation, the last thing you wanna do is go to "work" and talk about work! LOL.....

OBS...


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## sechs (Oct 31, 2006)

I think that people need to understand that this isn't a question of possible or impossible, but of scheduling. It *can* be done.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2006)

sechs said:


> I think that people need to understand that this isn't a question of possible or impossible, but of scheduling. It *can* be done.



Please feel free to explain how you can put 36 hours into 24.


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## battalion51 (Oct 31, 2006)

Let's see. Assuming OBS is correct, they could accomplish the daily service with trainsets, simply turning the set in LAX same day. Now it is also possible that because of the terrible time keeping of this train they have added more padding to the schedule since it last ran that way, whenever that was. If the times were adjusted so that you had a morning arrival in LAX and an afternoon departure it could be done.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> Let's see. Assuming OBS is correct, they could accomplish the daily service with trainsets



Really? Now that's just plain crazy!

:lol:


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## jimmyneoncom (Oct 31, 2006)

I still don't understand why the old-hand train worker I spoke to (and who got our largest tip, more on that in a sec) told me that "The two parlour cars have to be shared with eight trains". Not only are there THREE parlour cars (or so I read) but far fewer than 8 trains on the Starlight run, it seems.

If its appropriate, allow me to ask a question: How much should one expect from one's sleeper car attendant? It is proper and adaquate for the attendant to 'do his job, but no more' and what about comparing attendants and expecting to have someone who goes above and beyond, perhaps by explaining things, such as why it is so warm at night or saying "Next time try to ask for a lower level car, which is cooler"....someone who makes conversation and leaves you feeling appreciated - as a customer. Should you always tip, no matter what?



Guest said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > Let's see. Assuming OBS is correct, they could accomplish the daily service with trainsets
> ...


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## AlanB (Oct 31, 2006)

jimmyneoncom said:


> I still don't understand why the old-hand train worker I spoke to (and who got our largest tip, more on that in a sec) told me that "The two parlour cars have to be shared with eight trains". Not only are there THREE parlour cars (or so I read) but far fewer than 8 trains on the Starlight run, it seems.


Amtrak owns 5 Parlour cars numbers, 39970, 39972, 39973, 39974, 39975. Sadly many of them have been sidelined with problems this year. As for trainsets assigned to the route, there should only be four under the present schedule. I had read something this summer that said because of the huge delays that had been occuring during the spring and summer, that Amtrak had actually assigned a 5th trainset to the route, but I haven't seen confirmation of that.

But Amtrak would never have 8 trainsets assigned to the route, they simply don't have enough equipment for that. At present they'd have to cancel another route in order to devote that much equipment to the route.



jimmyneoncom said:


> If its appropriate, allow me to ask a question: How much should one expect from one's sleeper car attendant? It is proper and adaquate for the attendant to 'do his job, but no more' and what about comparing attendants and expecting to have someone who goes above and beyond, perhaps by explaining things, such as why it is so warm at night or saying "Next time try to ask for a lower level car, which is cooler"....someone who makes conversation and leaves you feeling appreciated - as a customer. Should you always tip, no matter what?


It's always appropriate to ask questions, that why this forum is here. 

What you ask is however a tough question and you'll find many different answers to the question. For me personally, only once have I never tipped a sleeping car attendant. In my case I was really debating whether to give him a tip or not, since his service had been so poor. He however made the decision easy for me, when he wasn't even at the door to collect tips when I detrained in Chicago.

Otherwise, I've always given at least a small tip to the attendant. I've also handed out a few whoppers to some who really went above and beyond the call of duty.

One should always expect the attendant to do his/her job, after all that is why they are there and what they are getting paid for. If they aren't doing their job, then there is certainly no reason for you to tip them. I'm of the mind that if they've at least done their basic job, they should get something in the way of a tip from me. And of course if they go beyond and above the call of duty, then I'll tip more.


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## frj1983 (Oct 31, 2006)

Guest said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > I think that people need to understand that this isn't a question of possible or impossible, but of scheduling. It *can* be done.
> ...


Well Guest,

Maybe you can tell us what you think...you keep saying it's impossible but don't tell us why???????


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## Trogdor (Oct 31, 2006)

The current one-way running time of the Coast Starlight is 35 hours southbound, 34h15 northbound. Put those two numbers together, and you get total traveling time of 69 hours and 15 minutes.

In order to offer daily departures with three trainsets, the total cycle time of a consist would have to be under 72 hours. While the round-trip running time is under 72 hours, this does not provide time for equipment servicing (it takes more than 2 hours and 45 minutes to service the train after a trip, and that only assumes servicing on one end, not the other). This also does not provide for any delays.

Now, if, by "scheduling" you mean pretending that Union Pacific is capable of running anything on time, and pretending that the train can run faster than it currently does in certain sections, then sure, it could be just a matter of scheduling. However, regardless of how you look at it, under today's conditions the Coast Starlight simply cannot operate with only three trainsets and still offer daily departures from each end.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2006)

Thank you rmadisonwi. Well said.


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## jimmyneoncom (Nov 1, 2006)

Regarding delays, it is my understanding that the tracks are not owned by Amtrak and that freight has priority. I've read a lot of complaints about delays on the Starlight but I believe that most of them are not Amtraks fault. I've also heard that on the East Coast Amtrak shares track priority with freight trains, "They get along a lot better on the East Coast" is what I was told. Also, during this last RT from Seattle to LA we had NO delays that alterted the schedule - in fact, we arrived in Seattle early. We were told that delays have now been minimized, but I don't know why.

On our previous RT we had all kinds of problems, nearly every problem possible: The engine broke down 2/3rds of the way through so we had an extra night on the train before getting to LA. I don't remember during which leg but we got so behind schedule because of freight trains that the train workers had all exceeded their permissible working hours; we sat at that stop where there's an antiue engine on the West side of the tracks (surrounded in fencing) for quite some time, walking around and socializing while a new shift had to TAKE TAXIS all the way from LA! Imagine what that cost Amtrak! Then on the way back our new train attendant forgot to equalize the pressure in our Delux Room toilet, and we couldn't use it for most of the trip. The train finally arrived in Seattle after midnight, after the ferries had stopped running. We took a fifty dollar taxi to the ferry terminal, went inside at one a.m. and prepared to wait out the night, but it wasn't long before someone found us and made us leave the ferry terminal! We ended up sitting on a bench all night, wearing most of the clothes we had packed (2 pair of socks, etc.) We weren't mad because we didn't see it as Amtrak's fault - but none-the-less, Amtrak refunded our ENTIRE round trip tickets! Add the cost of those taxis and it's hard to imagine how Amtrak could stay in business with such overhead. But like I said, things have improved since August, it seems.



frj1983 said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > sechs said:
> ...


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## George Harris (Nov 1, 2006)

Jimmy, others will probably imporve on this but:

IN theory at least, Amtrak is supposed to have priority. however some railroads are better at observing the spirit of this than others. Of the big four RR's in the US the observance level from best to worst appears to be 1. BNSF, 2. NS, 3. CSX, 4. UP. There is or used to be a large gap between No. 2 and No. 3. CN/IC seems to generally be good. Part, but not all the UP problems have been the general conditions of tracks on the ex-SP routes used by the Coast Starlight and the Sunset.

"We were told that delays have now been minimized, but I don't know why."

A lot of work has been done on the northern half of their part of the Coast Starlight route in the last couple of years, and a lot of that is nearing completion. This has been the major factor in the improvements in timekeeping recently.

The Sunset route has been overwhelmed with trains to the point that UP was actually having to turn down some freight. They are in the process of doubletracking large segments of this, and as these segments go into service timekeeping on this line should also increase. The problem is they are not doubletracking east of El Paso, so the delays there will probably not get a lot better. There is also a large need for a change in corporate attitude.

George


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## sechs (Nov 2, 2006)

rmadisonwi said:


> under today's conditions the Coast Starlight simply cannot operate with only three trainsets and still offer daily departures from each end.


If you had read what was previously said in this thread, then you'd know that there's no disagreement there. Now, if you "pretend" to understand what was posted here, then you could "pretend" to have made a point.

If those who say that running the Coast Starlight with only three train sets is impossible want to cough up some real evidence of that, I (and I'm sure others) would like to see it. If you're only going to say, "it's impossible," or, "you can't do that with the current schedule," then save the electrons.


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## rmgreenesq (Nov 2, 2006)

George Harris said:


> The Sunset route has been overwhelmed with trains to the point that UP was actually having to turn down some freight. They are in the process of doubletracking large segments of this, and as these segments go into service timekeeping on this line should also increase. The problem is they are not doubletracking east of El Paso, so the delays there will probably not get a lot better. There is also a large need for a change in corporate attitude.
> George


I also understand that the UP has been marketing its rails and intermodal connection as an alternative to the Panama and Suez Canals. Instead of a container ship full of Chineese manufactured goods bound for Europe locking through the Panama or Suez Canal, ships dock at the Port of LA/Long Beach. These containers are unloaded off the ship and loaded on UP freight trains for a quick trip along the same rails the Sunset Ltd. uses to the port of Houston, New Orleans, or Jacksonville. Once reaching the Gulf/Atlantic Coast, they are loaded back onto ships for the trip across the Atlantic.

If the rails are overwhelmed with freight, this marketing plan must be working.

Rick


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## jphjaxfl (Nov 2, 2006)

As long as Amtrak has operated the Coast Starlight as a daily train, 4 train sets of equipment have been required. The only way to change this would be to spend millions to upgrade the infrastucture to allow high speed running. In the early days of Amtrak and last few years of SP operation, the Cascade which operated between Oakland and Seattle under Amtrak and Oakland Portland did run tri-weekly. If you look back to S.P.'s fastest schedules in the 40s and 50s, the Portland-Oakland and San Francisco-Los Angeles via the Coast route both required 2 sets of equipment to cover the round trip. There were through sleeping cars at some periods and 4 cars would have been needed to cover each sleeping car line.


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## Trogdor (Nov 2, 2006)

sechs said:


> rmadisonwi said:
> 
> 
> > under today's conditions the Coast Starlight simply cannot operate with only three trainsets and still offer daily departures from each end.
> ...


No, why don't you show how (with either real or sample times) it can be done with three.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2006)

rmadisonwi said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > rmadisonwi said:
> ...



No kidding! Splain to us how it could be done with three.


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## AlanB (Nov 2, 2006)

Guys, I'm a bit worried about the direction that this topic seems to be headed. :unsure:

Please, let's keep this discussion on friendly terms.  I would prefer not to have to close and/or delete any posts from this topic.

Thanks.


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## sechs (Nov 2, 2006)

rmadisonwi said:


> No, why don't you show how (with either real or sample times) it can be done with three.





Guest said:


> No kidding! Splain to us how it could be done with three.


I hate to waste more electrons on this, but at least two folks missed post number 76 in this thread:



Amtrak OBS Employee said:


> I'll start with the "Meteor" since it was mentioned (and that is the one I always worked), then talk about the "Starlight."
> The "Meteor" is a MIA based train which currently uses four trainsets to make up the trip cycles. Prior to 2004 as bat51 mentioned, it used three. This was possible by because of the 7:00 AM departure out of MIA and the 10:20 AM arrival into NYP the next day. After arrival at NYP, while the OBS crew went to the hotel for their day room accomodations, the train went to SSY for cleaning, mechanical, etc. At 4:00 PM the OBS crew left the hotel to report to the train at SSY, at which that about 5:30 PM we were permitted to board the equipment and begin setting up the train. NYC reddie crew was only available to assist our MIA/JAX OBS crews with the delivery of the stock, etc. We had to do the actual set up of our train. A yard conductor and engineer then moved the train at about 6:15 PM to NYP station. Last minute stuff such as the pre-trip inspections (some of which were made at the yards) were made such as the brake test, etc, and the train was turned over to the outbound T&E personel (engineer and conductors). The train left NYP around 7:00 PM for the return trip to FL. At that time of day there were three trainsets in operation covering the "Silver Meteor." Along with us leaving NYP, there was that day's #98 which had left MIA some twelve hours earlier that morning, and the day before's train out of NYP which was nearing the end of it's trip somewhere around SBG-WPB (if they were all on-time that is..... LOL).
> 
> I believe the "Starlight" still uses four trainsets due to all the time in the schedule (for obvious reasons we'll leave unsaid here). If my memory serves me correct, the "Starlight" operated in this same fashion as the "Meteor" only with LAX as the turn around point for th equipment. This train is a LAX based train and was so at that time, so the OBS crew still had a four day trip total to SEA with that overnight there as well as the equipment. But on the day they arrived home from their trip at LAX, the train was cleaned and ready for the outbound OBS crew starting their first day of their trip. If the train was staffed out of SEA crewbase, then managment probably could have scheduled the OBS crews on a three day cycle like the "Meteor" in the East.
> ...


Now that OBS has conveniently done my part (thank you, OBS), why don't you guys do yours and PROVE your point.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2006)

Post 76 in no way helps expalin to me how this route can run with daily departures at each end.



> I'll start with the "Meteor"


This thread isn't about the Meteor



> I believe the "Starlight" still uses four trainsets due to all the time in the schedule (for obvious reasons we'll leave unsaid here).


I'm sorry. The reasons are not obvious to me. Can you please state them? It may help me, because It's MY understanding that the Starlight has ALWAYS used four train sets.



> If the train was staffed out of SEA crewbase, then managment probably could have scheduled the OBS crews on a three day cycle


Call me stupid. I can't see how. Could anyone expalin how managment could do that, please?

Thank you.


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## jimmyneoncom (Nov 3, 2006)

Perhaps, instead of arguing about how many train sets are used or ideally could be used, someone could call Amtrak and just ask them. It might take more than one call but then we could go on to a new topic, such as why Amtrak doesn't advertise.

Heck, I may as well get the ball rolling: When I talk to my friends about trains most of them are not even aware that they are available, let alone have sleeper cars. Can you imagine how many people would start taking the train, instead of the flying busses, if there were public service announcments on PBS mentioning Amtrak and what it offers? It isn't hard to prove that someone (or large group of powerful people) is out to cripple Amtrak by positing a few simple 'what-if's'.... What if Amtrak advertised, what if Amtrak or someone at Amtrak or who works or worked for Amtrak tried to educate the people en mass to this wonderful form of travel...? There must be some reason these things haven't happened.

Currently, 90% of us can just dream of getting a seat that converts to a bed on a airplane. We see these ads for Asian Airlines, etc. showing a private nook for the weallthy traveler as he waits out his 15 hours to get to Hong Kong. An ad could convey something like "Dreamed of cross country travel in your own room but can't afford the airline's First Class? Travel like a millionaire for a fraction of the cost - on Amtrak!"



Guest said:


> Post 76 in no way helps expalin to me how this route can run with daily departures at each end.
> 
> 
> > I'll start with the "Meteor"
> ...


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## Anthony (Nov 3, 2006)

You have to be careful about advertising a sleeping car room as "living like a millionaire." I think most of us can agree that the quality of accommodation is not quite at that level


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## AlanB (Nov 3, 2006)

Anthony said:


> You have to be careful about advertising a sleeping car room as "living like a millionaire." I think most of us can agree that the quality of accommodation is not quite at that level


Not to mention that you'd have other people wondering why the government is subsidizing Amtrak at all, if things are that good.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Nov 3, 2006)

Guest said:


> Post 76 in no way helps expalin to me how this route can run with daily departures at each end.
> 
> 
> > I'll start with the "Meteor"
> ...


1) OK I will try to clarify.

2)Regarding the "Meteor." Read the entire statement, not just what was quoted here! It was conveniently abbreviated! It reads this.......... "I'll start with the "Meteor" since it was mentioned (and that is the one I always worked), then talk about the "Starlight." .......... meaning this is in the form of a comparison statement with the "Starlight!"

3)The "obvious reasons left unsaid here" are located in numerous topics all over this forum from various mulititudes of posters who visit this site regularly! If I had listed all of these, the post would be over three pages long! But anyway, the "Starlight" has to use four trainsets with all the padding which has been built into the schedule. The freights (UP, CSX, NS, BNSF, etc) have requirements that Amtrak must follow. Pretty much UP has a major say so in the scheduling of the train over its trackage! And we're still leaving the rest unsaid here!

4)I would hope that no one here is calling you "stupid." This is why this forum is here, and that is to discuss Amtrak. We have to ask questions to get answers, and you are by no means an exception. If you don't understand, you keep asking until you do! And I am happy to oblige with this answer; there are two West Coast OBS crewbases. They are LAX and SEA. SEA staffs the OBS personel for the SEA section of the "Builder." CHI staffs the Porland section of that same train. LAX staffs the "Starlight," the "Southwest Chief," and the "Sunset Limited" as well as some short haul OBS jobs on the other trains. I made a comparison of the "Meteor" route and the "Starlight" route because they are somewhat close in distance between the two endpoints on both routes! The "Meteor" was able to operate on the three day turn from MIA-NYP-MIA with the OBS crews being based out of MIA. Over on the West Coast, the "Starlight" would need to be staffed out of SEA in order to work the OBS crews on a three day turn from SEA-LAX-SEA to keep the crew on the same cycle as the equipment like the East Coast comparison! Amtrak would adjust the job cycles accordingly to be in line with the equipment, if in fact doing do would make it possible to keep the minimum amount of crew cycles for each run. In other words under the current situation with LAX staffing the "Starlight," LAX would have to be used as the turn around station like NYC was used as the same in the East! In the East though, MIA staffed the train, not NYC. That way the OBS crews started out and usually stayed with the same equipment on the return trip. The crew cycles would not work that way being based out of LAX and that location being used as the turn around point! If the "Starlight" was able to operate on a three trainset cycle, the crews would most likely remain in LAX and only the equipment cycle be adjusted, not a big situation at all!

Some extra thoughts.........

When the "Palmetto" was cut back from NYP to SAV in 2004, they went from using four trainsets to two each day! That allowed Amtrak here in the East a little more equipment to play with thus giving the "Meteor" a fourth trainset allowing its equipment an overnight in NYC. More can be accomplished when equipment has a little more deadtime in the yards. Running turn around equipment in the fashion the "Meteor" did, puts a heavy time constraint on the mechanical dept, etc. And it does take its toll on the OBS crews as they do not get as good rest as they can with an overnight layover. And for what it is worth, I am kinda against these job cycles which reflect same day equipment turns (I am OK if the layover has more than six hours), unless it is set up like the the "run-through" operation found at CHI.

Oh and to keep this about "Parlour" cars, the one I was supposed to have on my last "Starlight" trip was not there. So I work for the company, and still haven't been in one! And I guess that will never happen.

OK enough rambling now!!! OBS...


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2006)

Amtrak OBS Employee said:


> .......If the "Starlight" was able to operate on a three trainset cycle........



If? I thought you were going to explain that it could and how. I'm sorry I still don't get it. I guess I'm just wondering whh, if ithey could be run with threee train sets, why don't they? And, if they don't, I guess they just can't?

Thanks for the help trying to clarify, but I'm still not getting it.


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## The Chief (Nov 4, 2006)

rmgreenesq said:


> I also understand that the UP has been marketing its rails and intermodal connection as an alternative to the Panama and Suez Canals.


The freight coast-to-coast container landbridge (bypassing the Panama Canal) actually began with *Santa Fe* in the 1970s. *ATSF* would transport from LA to Chicago, and handoff / pickup there with various East Coast freight railroads.

*Union Pacific* is just one of many Western railroads that picked up on the concept. In UP's case, much later.

The *Coast Starlight* runs with _four_ trainsets. Don't need any *Meteor* smack.

And lest I be blamed for going off-topic, recall that the *Pacific Parlour Cars* are _all_ original Santa Fe *Hi-Level Lounge* equipment.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Nov 4, 2006)

The Chief said:


> The *Coast Starlight* runs with _four_ trainsets. Don't need any *Meteor* smack.
> And lest I be blamed for going off-topic, recall that the *Pacific Parlour Cars* are _all_ original Santa Fe *Hi-Level Lounge* equipment.




OH OK....... no more "Meteor" smack.  Can we talk about "Silver Star" smack now? :unsure:

OBS... B)


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2006)

Has anyone seen a parlour car since Nov 1st? I have reservations on the Starlight in December and am wondering if I will get the chance to enjoy it.


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## MrFSS (Nov 14, 2006)

Guest said:


> Has anyone seen a parlour car since Nov 1st? I have reservations on the Starlight in December and am wondering if I will get the chance to enjoy it.


I just saw one sitting at the Beech Grove facility. Didn't look like it was going anywhere anytime soon!


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## AlanB (Nov 14, 2006)

MrFSS said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone seen a parlour car since Nov 1st? I have reservations on the Starlight in December and am wondering if I will get the chance to enjoy it.
> ...


Yeah the one at BG is no longer on the active roster, leaving only 4 PPC's in service baring other issues.


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## gyuri_ft (Nov 19, 2006)

Guest said:


> Has anyone seen a parlour car since Nov 1st? I have reservations on the Starlight in December and am wondering if I will get the chance to enjoy it.


Southbound on 11/17/2006 with 120+ in SJC while picking up my tickets:


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## yarrow (Nov 19, 2006)

we saw the southbound cs out of pdx on 11/16 and it definitely didn't have a parlour car but it appeared to have two sightseeer lounges coupled together.


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## BillVas (Nov 19, 2006)

Was Amtrak still using those ATSF cars that they had changed into Parlour cars??? They were great to ride in for wine tasting but I did not find it fun to stay there during the trip.

Bill


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## TransAtlantic (Nov 19, 2006)

I've been at Union Station for the arrival or departure of 11/14, oh, about 10 times in the past three weeks...and every one had a parlor car (they've all been refurbished, and there are at least five altogether to choose from out of L.A.)


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## AlanB (Nov 19, 2006)

TransAtlantic said:


> I've been at Union Station for the arrival or departure of 11/14, oh, about 10 times in the past three weeks...and every one had a parlor car (they've all been refurbished, and there are at least five altogether to choose from out of L.A.)


That's impossible as Amtrak only carries 4 Parlour cars on it's active roster. So there is no way that there could be 5 or more in LA. Amtrak still owns a fifth car out of the original six, but that fifth car is sitting in Beech Grove. MrFSS actually photographed the shell of that car two weeks ago and it wasn't in any condition to run, much less refurbished.


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## AlanB (Nov 19, 2006)

Guest said:


> Has anyone seen a parlour car since Nov 1st? I have reservations on the Starlight in December and am wondering if I will get the chance to enjoy it.


As other have noted and shown via pictures, Amtrak is still running the Parlour cars. The recent URPA newsletter confirms that Amtrak has reversed its earlier decision to remove the Parlour cars from the CS. However, the URPA newsletter also states that the attendant has been dropped from the Parlour car. While they will still do the wine & cheese tasting in the car, run by the dining car staff, all other food and services that used to be provided in the Parlour car are no more.

The car has mainly become just another Sightseer Lounge car now, although it still remains the exclusive domain of sleeping car passengers.


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## TransAtlantic (Nov 19, 2006)

If you check the 8th St. yard on any given day, you can see a "spare" sitting there, ready to go (perhaps a leftover from recent difficulties, and the need to have an extra consist in case of severe delays)


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## AlanB (Nov 19, 2006)

TransAtlantic said:


> If you check the 8th St. yard on any given day, you can see a "spare" sitting there, ready to go (perhaps a leftover from recent difficulties, and the need to have an extra consist in case of severe delays)


Last I saw from status reports posted on the net, that "spare" is really a bad ordered car. Which is why not every consist actually runs with a PPC. In fact back on the first page of this topic in post #5 JcCollins posted a status update of the 5 PPC's. It's about a month old now, so it's possible that at least one of the bad ordered cars is back in service, but that still doesn't leave any extra's floating around.


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## jimmyneoncom (Nov 19, 2006)

Would someone please tell the uninformed among us what words like "consist" and "bad ordered cars" mean, please? I won't even go into all of the abbreviations and strings of letters...thank you.



AlanB said:


> TransAtlantic said:
> 
> 
> > If you check the 8th St. yard on any given day, you can see a "spare" sitting there, ready to go (perhaps a leftover from recent difficulties, and the need to have an extra consist in case of severe delays)
> ...


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## battalion51 (Nov 19, 2006)

Even though bad ordered isn't on there, check out the unofficial Railroad Dictionary. Bad Ordered means there is a significant component of the car that is not functioning, i.e. A/C, plumbing, electrical, etc., therefore the car must be cut until the necessary repairs can be made.


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## AlanB (Nov 19, 2006)

jimmyneoncom said:


> Would someone please tell the uninformed among us what words like "consist" and "bad ordered cars" mean, please? I won't even go into all of the abbreviations and strings of letters...thank you.


The consist refers to the cars used to form the train that is running that day. Think of it as "the train consists of those particular cars."

PPC = *P*acific *P*arlour *C*ar.

CS = Coast Starlight

BG = Beech Grove (Amtrak's heavy repair/maintenance facility, located in Indiana near Indianapolis)

You won't find everything on the list, but definitions for many of the RR terms that we use around here can be found at Trains.com.


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## Anthony (Nov 19, 2006)

BillVas said:


> Was Amtrak still using those ATSF cars that they had changed into Parlour cars??? They were great to ride in for wine tasting but I did not find it fun to stay there during the trip. Bill



That's what the Parlour cars are -- converted ATSF cars. No other type of car is called "Parlour".


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## jimmyneoncom (Nov 24, 2006)

Speaking of the Coast Starlight: how many of you know what happened during the last scene of the movie "The Italian Job" (the latest version of the movie)?

Just wonderful.



Anthony said:


> BillVas said:
> 
> 
> > Was Amtrak still using those ATSF cars that they had changed into Parlour cars??? They were great to ride in for wine tasting but I did not find it fun to stay there during the trip.
> ...


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## jimmyneoncom (Nov 30, 2006)

Regarding my November 19th posting referencing the ending of the movie "The Italian Job", as I have not received notice of any posts answering my question: "What wonderful thing happens at the end of the movie 'The Italian Job' movie?"....I will now tell you:

The end of "The Italian Job" presents our now rich and successful heros celebrating in the most exotic place they can apparently think of: The PARLOUR CAR of the COAST STARLIGHT!

So if anyone whats to see what it looks like, as if you didn't already know, then rent the movie and not only will you see wonderful coverage of it's interior, the film ends on a long shot of the parlour car's exterior!

I can't believe no one but myself noticed this. It's a great way to let your friends know about the best things Amtrak has (or had) to offer. - Jimmy Neon


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## GG-1 (Dec 1, 2006)

jimmyneoncom said:


> Regarding my November 19th posting referencing the ending of the movie "The Italian Job", as I have not received notice of any posts answering my question: "What wonderful thing happens at the end of the movie 'The Italian Job' movie?"....I will now tell you:
> The end of "The Italian Job" presents our now rich and successful heroes celebrating in the most exotic place they can apparently think of: The PARLOUR CAR of the COAST STARLIGHT!
> 
> So if anyone whats to see what it looks like, as if you didn't already know, then rent the movie and not only will you see wonderful coverage of it's interior, the film ends on a long shot of the parlour car's exterior!
> ...


Aloha

Trying again, must have pushed the wrong ?? There was some prior thread about this film. As I remember the interior seen is of a still Parlour car. Moving shot is of a sightseer car, someplace other than LAUS

Check out the windows of the Parlour car

first the interior





then the exterior





And the Sightseer car


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## battalion51 (Dec 1, 2006)

Ah faults most people won't pick up on. :lol: Like the P-42 that can be seen in WWII era Pearl Harbor.


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