# Reverse SDL loophole trip



## the_traveler (May 7, 2009)

A reverse SDL loophole trip is possible (of sorts) - but with a slight extra step! 

If you request LAX-SDL, you are routed either on the SL/Crescent or SWC/CL/Crescent.  *BUT* if you request ONA (Ontario, CA)-SDL (or anything west of ATL), you can either chose the SL/Crescent or the TE (via SAS and CHI)/CL/Crescent!  The later routing gives 5 days/4 nights and still costs only a 2 zone AGR award! 

The cost of a coach ticket LAX-ONA can be had for $9! 

(This tip is given out of the goodness of my heart! :lol: )


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 7, 2009)

How did u figure this out?


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## the_traveler (May 7, 2009)

Just luck! 

I knew that ELP to SDL was a 1 zone award (both being in the Midwest zone), so I just took the TE route to see how far west I could get a TE routing. When I tried LAX, it only gave the SWC routing. But when I tried Pomona (the next stop), for some reason it said "Not Available". However, from Ontario (the next stop) it works!  Then I discovered LAX-ONA is only $10 (less discount)!

I can vouch that this works - because I have this routing (LAX-SAS-CHI-WAS-BHM) routing in August for 20K!  I actually tried from SBA, but it only gave the SWC routing.

And correction - it's 6 days/5 nights! (I forgot about the night spent in SAS sleeping while the car is not moving.)


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## Guest_rms492_* (May 7, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Just luck!
> I knew that ELP to SDL was a 1 zone award (both being in the Midwest zone), so I just took the TE route to see how far west I could get a TE routing. When I tried LAX, it only gave the SWC routing. But when I tried Pomona (the next stop), for some reason it said "Not Available". However, from Ontario (the next stop) it works!  Then I discovered LAX-ONA is only $10 (less discount)!
> 
> I can vouch that this works - because I have this routing (LAX-SAS-CHI-WAS-BHM) routing in August for 20K!  I actually tried from SBA, but it only gave the SWC routing.
> ...



Wait a minute, couldn't I do this for a two-zone award:

NOL to LAX, one option that comes up is this:

NOL-WAS on the Crescent

WAS-CHI on the Capitol

CHI-LAX on the Southwest Chief.

Would this be considered a two-zone redemption???


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## the_traveler (May 7, 2009)

Guest_rms492_* said:


> Wait a minute, couldn't I do this for a two-zone award:
> NOL to LAX, one option that comes up is this:
> 
> NOL-WAS on the Crescent
> ...


If it come up as a choice, then yes! Whatever comes up as a choice on the website can be booked as an award.

But the original SDL loophole routing was Crescent (1 night) to CL (1 night) to EB to PDX (2 nights) to CS (1 night) = 5 nights. The routing you show has 1 night + 1 night + 2 nights = 4 nights. The reverse routing above has 3 nights on the TE + 1 night on the CL + 1 night on the Crescent = 5 nights total!


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 7, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Guest_rms492_* said:
> 
> 
> > Wait a minute, couldn't I do this for a two-zone award:
> ...


I don't understand how this is a 2-zone reward... you're clearly crossing three zones...


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## chuljin (May 7, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Guest_rms492_* said:
> ...


Because it's not the number of zones you cross; it's the number of zones (inclusive) straight-line between your origin and destination. NOL is in the center zone, and LAX in the west zone, and there's no zone between them. 

Say you wanted to travel from VNC to LAX (all of 19 miles, and obviously in the western zone). It would obviously say take the Pacific Surfliner.

But if it bizarrely also suggested (without multi-city trickery) VNC-CS-PDX-EB-CHI-LSL-NYP-Cres-NOL-SL-LAX, well then that trip of 10000+ miles would be a one-zone.

Of course I can't find the thread now, but I suspect it may have been the_traveler who mentioned recently going in a big circle between two absurdly close stations on a one-zone award.


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## the_traveler (May 7, 2009)

I don't think it was me - but I'll take the credit!  (I have no morals!  )

If you request a trip from Slidell, LA (35 miles northeast of NOL) to Hammond, LA (53 miles north of NOL), amtrak.com shows you a routing taking *3 nights*! (I don't know the area, but you could probably drive between them in less than 1 hour.) The routing given is SDL (Crescent) to WAS (CL) to CHI (CONO) to HMD!

And it would be a 1 zone trip (15,000 points for a roomette)!


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## Ispolkom (May 7, 2009)

chuljin said:


> Because it's not the number of zones you cross; it's the number of zones (inclusive) straight-line between your origin and destination. NOL is in the center zone, and LAX in the west zone, and there's no zone between them.  Say you wanted to travel from VNC to LAX (all of 19 miles, and obviously in the western zone). It would obviously say take the Pacific Surfliner.
> 
> But if it bizarrely also suggested (without multi-city trickery) VNC-CS-PDX-EB-CHI-LSL-NYP-Cres-NOL-SL-LAX, well then that trip of 10000+ miles would be a one-zone.
> 
> Of course I can't find the thread now, but I suspect it may have been the_traveler who mentioned recently going in a big circle between two absurdly close stations on a one-zone award.


Ever since I joined this forum, I haven't understood why AGR allows these circuitous award trips. My best guess is in two parts

a ) AGR is focused on the NEC market, and rewards for long-distance trains, especially sleepers, aren't a big deal to AGR. I think I got this notion from one of AlanB's posts. So a hard-and-fast rule that if you can find it at amtrak.com you can book it is easily implemented.

b ) Also the hard-and-fast rule doesn't cost much, since the universe of people who take these AGR odysseys is very small, and could well be made up mostly of people who post to this forum.


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## dart330 (May 7, 2009)

I need to find a job in Slidell so I can take advantage of all this free travel.


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## saxman (May 7, 2009)

My grand tour included the Slidell loophole for 20,000. I was able to get from Slidell to WAS to CHI to LAX to SEA, since it was a choice. I just bought a 10 dollar coach ticket from NOL to SDL and they let me board my sleeper in NOL. I didn't have to sit in coach for an hour. So that was 6 days and 5 nights for a two zone award. It was pretty spiffy.


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## JayPea (May 7, 2009)

I'm getting pumped for MY Slidell loophole trip: The SDL-WAS-CHI-PDX-LAX trip in August. And since I live here in Washington and my uncle, who lives in Illinois, is going with me, there is a great possibility of a CHI-NOL trip the day before. Haven't worked out those details yet but it's in the works. I wish I had more time to spare; I'd just go SPK-CHI-NOL and then the Slidell loophole trip. Ah well, I'll take what I can get.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 8, 2009)

Not that I am even close in terms of points to do any kind of loop hole trip (Unless I do a 1 zone coach loop) but this kind of trip requires an overnight stay right? since you end up in NOL on the crescent?


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## the_traveler (May 8, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Not that I am even close in terms of points to do any kind of loop hole trip (Unless I do a 1 zone coach loop) but this kind of trip requires an overnight stay right? since you end up in NOL on the crescent?


If you're talking about the SDL-HMD loop mentioned above, technically no, since you leave SDL in the morning and arrive HMD in the afternoon. All 3 nights would be on the train. But if you have to take a train, fly or drive to NOL to start the trip, you would have to stay overnight anyway! 

When I do my crazy routings to or from the west coast, I use BHM as a turnaround point. That is because the arrival is at 11:44 AM and the departure is at 2:44 PM *ON THE SAME DAY*! (No overnight required!) Otherwise, if I went to SDL, it would require me to stay overnight.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 8, 2009)

Oh so you dont actually travel to SDL you just go as far as BHM and use SDL simply as a way to exploit the loop hole.


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## the_traveler (May 8, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Oh so you dont actually travel to SDL you just go as far as BHM and use SDL simply as a way to exploit the loop hole.


Actually, we unofficially called it the SDL loophole, because that is the farthest west one can on the "loophole route". Plus, it's easier than saying "the ATL loophole", "the BHM loophole", etc... depending on where you start! 

BTW, I've always booked and started in BHM, because it is a good turnaround point and does not require an overnight stay (just a 3 hour layover).


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 8, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > Oh so you dont actually travel to SDL you just go as far as BHM and use SDL simply as a way to exploit the loop hole.
> ...


oh wow now you've sold me on this routing. Can I borrow 14k AGR points?  :lol: :lol:


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## soitgoes (May 9, 2009)

Ispolkom said:


> a ) AGR is focused on the NEC market, and rewards for long-distance trains, especially sleepers, aren't a big deal to AGR. I think I got this notion from one of AlanB's posts. So a hard-and-fast rule that if you can find it at amtrak.com you can book it is easily implemented.


Probably--some figures from redemptions from program inception to September 2008 or so:

1Z Bedroom: 4783

1Z Roomette: 8244

2Z Bedroom: 2912

2Z Roomette: 4991

3Z Bedroom: 427

3Z Roomette: 559

NE Coach: 207293

One Zone Unreserved Coach: 58632 (no longer exists; primarily NEC trips)

Acela Express Business class: 30955

Also, many one zone and two zone sleeper awards are for relatively short trip trips, far below the maximum possible mileage/hours. Most people do look at Amtrak as a form of transportation from point A to point B.


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 10, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > Oh so you dont actually travel to SDL you just go as far as BHM and use SDL simply as a way to exploit the loop hole.
> ...


So what are the other loopholes in the system? Can you go TOL-CHI, CHI-SEA, SEA-SAC, SAC-CHI, CHI-TOL no stopovers? I would think not.. because it has to be a "legitimate routing"...


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## the_traveler (May 10, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> So what are the other loopholes in the system? Can you go TOL-CHI, CHI-SEA, SEA-SAC, SAC-CHI, CHI-TOL no stopovers? I would think not.. because it has to be a "legitimate routing"...


There are 2 others that I found. (I'd tell you, but I'd have to kill you! :lol: )

OK, I'll take a chance!  (Just don't take my room!  )


Port Huron, MI is the border of the eastern zone and midwest zone. If you go to anywhere in the eastern zone (such as to Miami), it routes you through CHI first. But I believe it is a 1 zone award!

ABQ is the border of the midwest and western zone. If you go ABQ-NOL, it will route you (depending on the day of the week) ABQ-LAX-NOL, ABQ-CHI-NOL, ABQ-CHI-CVS-NOL or (I believe) ABQ-CHI-WAS-NOL! And because both ABQ and NOL are in the midwest zone, this should be a 1 zone award too!


And of course, any station on the Crescent route between ATL and SDL to a station in the midwest zone (including DEN, DAL, ELP, MSP and others) will be a 1 zone award - even though you go thru WAS or CVS!


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 10, 2009)

So really these loopholes are really useless for anybody who doesn't live near them.. because it would require one to purchase a ticket to and from the destination cities.


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 10, 2009)

Though, no offense... you aren't the be all end all of loopholes.... how do you "test" for loopholes? What exactly is your methodology? Perhaps if you explained how one finds loopholes the rest of us could go look for stuff for ourselves!


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## the_traveler (May 10, 2009)

For the Port Huron one, yeah!

For the ABQ one, maybe! If you wanted to just ride trains  , you could fly to ABQ, go to NOL via LAX one direction and via CHI the other and return to ABQ to fly home. 

For me, the reason I choose to go to BHM is that if I go from PDX to BHM, it would be 20,000 points and then I buy a $29 ticket to ATL and then return ATL-KIN by coach  (yes 1 overnight) for 5,500 points. That's a total of 25,500 points that way. If I go directly PDX-KIN for a 3 zone award, it would cost 35,000 points. I can find a better use for those 9,500 points! 

I test them by inputing "from" and "to" on the website. If it routes you otherwise, it can be booked. The AGR agent sees the same screen! (You can't use a multi-city booking, just the "regular" to and from.)


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 10, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> For the Port Huron one, yeah!
> For the ABQ one, maybe! If you wanted to just ride trains  , you could fly to ABQ, go to NOL via LAX one direction and via CHI the other and return to ABQ to fly home.
> 
> For me, the reason I choose to go to BHM is that if I go from PDX to BHM, it would be 20,000 points and then I buy a $29 ticket to ATL and then return ATL-KIN by coach  (yes 1 overnight) for 5,500 points. That's a total of 25,500 points that way. If I go directly PDX-KIN for a 3 zone award, it would cost 35,000 points. I can find a better use for those 9,500 points!
> ...


Thus it works better with three-day a week trains because they'll have odd bits in between...


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## sechs (May 11, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> So really these loopholes are really useless for anybody who doesn't live near them.. because it would require one to purchase a ticket to and from the destination cities.


Right. If you don't want to start or end along the routes of the Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, or Crescent between Atlanta and New Orleans, as well as the California, Washington-Oregon, and Midwest corridor trains, then, it might be a tough sell. I mean that's only about two-thirds of the nation that can take advantage....


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 11, 2009)

sechs said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > So really these loopholes are really useless for anybody who doesn't live near them.. because it would require one to purchase a ticket to and from the destination cities.
> ...


I travel to PDX a lot-- from ALC. The border of the second zone is TOL. If you plug in TOL/PDX you get CL/LSL and EB maybe EB to SEA and Cascades. BUT if you plug in CHI-PDX you get the SWC to CS... a much more rewarding trip. Does this mean TOL-PDX via LAX is not valid while CHI-PDX via LAX is? That doesn't make much sense given that all the connections would work. Granted, its only four hours in a roomette, but you might wanna squeeze every penny you can out of it--

Actually, in the above example, going to PDX via LAX would be a nice treat-- and I do want to go to PDX do I'd just take the EB back. AND because I'd save money on the coach fare (each way on the EB is about $230 low bucket) I could easily get a low bucket roomette on the way home to CHI at least.

But the above isn't really a loophole, is it? Seems too simple.


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## sechs (May 11, 2009)

Isn't the issue what Arrow will show, not whether the routing via Los Angeles is valid or not?

For example, if you choose Klamath Falls, which is off the Cascades route, then you get that route -- last. When you choose Ontario in the previous example, what you're doing is eliminating the first-shown alternate routings from Arrow. This allows the more convoluted or perceived dispreferred one to actually appear.


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## the_traveler (May 11, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I travel to PDX a lot-- from ALC. The border of the second zone is TOL. If you plug in TOL/PDX you get CL/LSL and EB maybe EB to SEA and Cascades. BUT if you plug in CHI-PDX you get the SWC to CS... a much more rewarding trip. Does this mean TOL-PDX via LAX is not valid while CHI-PDX via LAX is? That doesn't make much sense given that all the connections would work. Granted, its only four hours in a roomette, but you might wanna squeeze every penny you can out of it--
> Actually, in the above example, going to PDX via LAX would be a nice treat-- and I do want to go to PDX do I'd just take the EB back. AND because I'd save money on the coach fare (each way on the EB is about $230 low bucket) I could easily get a low bucket roomette on the way home to CHI at least.
> 
> But the above isn't really a loophole, is it? Seems too simple.


No, it not a loophole, but I did just that in March!

Using a northeast zone award, I could get to BUF for 3,000 points. When I tried TOL-PDX, it only gave me the EB. But if I started in CHI, I got the via LAX routing. So I started my award in CHI!

To me, that was worth the extra $17 fare from BUF!


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## the_traveler (May 11, 2009)

sechs said:


> Isn't the issue what Arrow will show, not whether the routing via Los Angeles is valid or not?
> For example, if you choose Klamath Falls, which is off the Cascades route, then you get that route -- last. When you choose Ontario in the previous example, what you're doing is eliminating the first-shown alternate routings from Arrow. This allows the more convoluted or perceived dispreferred one to actually appear.


Actually not really. If you chose Albany or Salem, OR, it routes you via PDX and then an Ambus (not a Cascade).


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 11, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > I travel to PDX a lot-- from ALC. The border of the second zone is TOL. If you plug in TOL/PDX you get CL/LSL and EB maybe EB to SEA and Cascades. BUT if you plug in CHI-PDX you get the SWC to CS... a much more rewarding trip. Does this mean TOL-PDX via LAX is not valid while CHI-PDX via LAX is? That doesn't make much sense given that all the connections would work. Granted, its only four hours in a roomette, but you might wanna squeeze every penny you can out of it--
> ...


Of course in my case I can always get the coach ticket from ALC-CHI on 5,500 in points, however using the 1.6¢ rule it doesn't work out with my SA discount.

That's actually a very nice way of earning/spending points right there:

ALC-CHI: (low bucket) $61 = 122 RP + 60 S Bonus

CHI-LAX-PDX: 20,000 2Z Reward

PDX-CHI: (low bucket) $221 + $216 (roomette) = 874 RP + 437 Bonus.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 11, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> [*]ABQ is the border of the midwest and western zone. If you go ABQ-NOL, it will route you (depending on the day of the week) ABQ-LAX-NOL, ABQ-CHI-NOL, ABQ-CHI-CVS-NOL or (I believe) ABQ-CHI-WAS-NOL! And because both ABQ and NOL are in the midwest zone, this should be a 1 zone award too!


Now you have my attention! Your saying you can go from ABQ get routed across the country to WAS for a one zone reward?? What does that booking agent say when they take only one zone worth of points away while your clearly crossing zone boarders left and right!


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## the_traveler (May 11, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > [*]ABQ is the border of the midwest and western zone. If you go ABQ-NOL, it will route you (depending on the day of the week) ABQ-LAX-NOL, ABQ-CHI-NOL, ABQ-CHI-CVS-NOL or (I believe) ABQ-CHI-WAS-NOL! And because both ABQ and NOL are in the midwest zone, this should be a 1 zone award too!
> ...


They don't really say anything. When I book my PDX-BHM trips, they only look at the origination and destination points.



> PDX - That's in the western zone.BHM - That's in the central zone.
> 
> That will be 2 zones!


I even once switched (after booking) from BHM to NOL - staying on the Crescent. The agent looked at the charts and said



> PDX-NOL - That will still be a 2 zone award!


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 11, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


I see so how do you select a routing though? Yes I am going to New Orleans but can I go to Washington? I guess when I finally save up some points I'll found out.


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## the_traveler (May 11, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> I see so how do you select a routing though? Yes I am going to New Orleans but can I go to Washington? I guess when I finally save up some points I'll found out.


Just pick a "From" and "To" city and see what it gives. But pick different cities and on different routes. (Don't pick for example NOL to NOL. Or if you pick SDL-NOL or HMD-NOL, it will give you a 1/2 hour trip on the Crescent or CONO only. But if you pick HMD-SDL for example, it will give you a 3 day trip! Then buy the 1 stop coach tickets to/from NOL.)

If you mean between NOL and WAS, that would be a 2 zone trip. If you mean (for example) PDX-BHM via WAS, and get off in WAS and not get on the Crescent, technically no. That would be a 3 zone award. (To BHM would be a 2 zone award.) You may not get caught, but you may find another 15,000 was taken out of your account for the 3rd zone. (A semi-legal way around that is to get on the Crescent, go 1 stop to ALX, *MAKE SURE YOUR TICKET IS PULLED* - then get off and take the Metro back to WAS! The Metro is right at the ALX station!)

But if you do this - *DO NOT CHECK BAGS*! They would be checked thru to BHM, ATL or wherever.


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 11, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


That actually would work for me... again, PDX. I'd just have to cough up the 150-220 for the ticket to BHM and make the short-turn there.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 11, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > I see so how do you select a routing though? Yes I am going to New Orleans but can I go to Washington? I guess when I finally save up some points I'll found out.
> ...


Right I just meant I can't imagine the booking people just let things like that through. I mean its great but you would think they would have noticed?


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## the_traveler (May 11, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Right I just meant I can't imagine the booking people just let things like that through. I mean its great but you would think they would have noticed?


Don't forget that many AGR agents (even when they were in MSP) have never been on an Amtrak train! (And now that they're located in Canada, it's even lower!) They basically look at the origination point and destination point to determine how many zones to charge.

Before my last redemption, I had the AGR agent tell me about



> ... they now have "new" sleepers that have all roomettes on the upper level!


(I think they're called transitional dorms - and how long have they been around!  )


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 11, 2009)

So traveler, what is your methodology when you look for these loophole stations? Do you look for two stations within the same or in seperate zones that have the most impossibly complex routings?


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## the_traveler (May 11, 2009)

Yes - and YES!


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## Upstate (May 11, 2009)

So would this be possible:

SCH(Schriever, LA)-LAX , LAX-PDX , PDX-CBS(Columbus, WI)

SCH to CBS doesn't have any options come up on the website so as I understand it they would have to do by hand. Do you think that you could get away with taking the west coast route (either CS or Ambus/SJ), or would they make you go up the CONO?


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## the_traveler (May 11, 2009)

I really don't know what they would do. But I suspect that they may make you take the CONO.


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## sechs (May 12, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Actually not really. If you chose Albany or Salem, OR, it routes you via PDX and then an Ambus (not a Cascade).


You mean, not a train. Those are "Cascades" buses.

The point is, however, to get the routing via Los Angeles, for which choosing Klamath Falls (or Chemult, or any other stop south of Eugene) does.


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## apbIowa (May 18, 2009)

Darn Arrow...

I tried a 1Z from ABQ>WPT but it won't route directly.

It will do:

ABQ>PDX via LAX -AND-

LAX>WPT via PDX though... just not both at same time.

Via Multi-city though (I know, not AGR approved) both

ABQ>LAX>WPT -AND-

ABQ>PDX>WPT work, so I dont' think it is a timing thing.

Could it be Arrow is willing to risk one lost connection, but not two when it involves the CS?


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