# Auto Train Coach Food Being Removed 1/14/2020?



## lordsigma (Jul 15, 2019)

Started a new thread as this is somewhat of a different issue than the October "contemporary" announcement. It appears something is happening on January 14, 2020 with the Auto Train coach meals. On this page under Coach menu "Available until January 14, 2020" is listed https://www.amtrak.com/dining-car . Is coach dining disappearing altogether or being replaced with something else?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 15, 2019)

They refresh the Auto train menu a few times a year. Winter seems about right for the refresh and by that time, they may decide if they are going to modify the Auto Train menu to something else. 

That whole menu page will need an overhaul soon.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 15, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> Started a new thread as this is somewhat of a different issue than the October "contemporary" announcement. It appears something is happening on January 14, 2020 with the Auto Train coach meals. On this page under Coach menu "Available until January 14, 2020" is listed https://www.amtrak.com/dining-car . Is coach dining disappearing altogether or being replaced with something else?


I'd look for more of the "Contemporary" (aka Boxed) Meals for the Autotrain since the Recent Announcement saying ALL Eastern Trains will go to this dumb Policy.

" Let them eat Cake!"


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## lordsigma (Jul 15, 2019)

From the response I just got from RPA it sounds like they are indeed cutting the coach meal service as of that date - it sounds like the Auto Trains’s sleeper diner is not included in “contemporary” and will remain the same.


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## chrsjrcj (Jul 15, 2019)

Edit: Here is an official release from Amtrak: https://media.amtrak.com/2019/07/amtrak-investing-in-the-auto-train-customer-experience/

Looks like they will add a cafe car for Coach passengers, but at least still offer the continental breakfast.


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## Michigan Mom (Jul 15, 2019)

The press release makes it sound nice actually. Food trucks at departure time, or you can take your chances with the Cross-Country cafe (guessing, similar items to what you can purchase on short distance trains today). Continental breakfast which is probably similar to the current LSL/Cap offerings. I would not worry about starving on this train especially since they don't seem to delay as often as Train 30.


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## lordsigma (Jul 15, 2019)

Yes..hopefully the new dinner menu for sleeper is at least similar to what it is now (or an enhancement.) The new linens and towels sound like a nice addition as is complimentary wine. If the menu is an enhancement - could the "new Auto Train" be a trial run of what they have planned for the two night trains out west? Also for folks who have Select Executive, the free Priority offload is a REALLY nice feature.

The food trucks are a great idea to try to attract millennials and younger generations in general to the AT......as a millennial myself it does sound appealing..another good idea would be to find a micro brewery to offer craft beer in addition to the food trucks...


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## chrsjrcj (Jul 15, 2019)

Doesn’t the train normally board by 3? That is an early dinner, but I guess you can get a snack in the cafe to hold you over until breakfast. I wonder if the cafe will have overnight hours?

I wonder how long the improved amenities will last like they had on the LSL and CL. 

And where will this extra sleeper capacity come from? A single level Capitol Limited or Southwest Chief?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 15, 2019)

Unless they plan on cutting coach capacity, I have grave concerns about this. I'm imaging a seriously late Auto Train, Ping Ponging back and forth between terminals and not having enough food to serve the coach passengers. The current Auto train actually has two cafe cars. I wonder if they will still have two.


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## b243923 (Jul 16, 2019)

*July 15, 2019 Amtrak Investing in the Auto Train Customer Experience *
 

*media.amtrak.com*
*
2 mins read




WASHINGTON – Auto Train during the next six months. This train offers daily, non-stop service from Lorton, Va. (near Washington, D.C.), and Sanford, Fla. (near Orlando). Customers can skip I-95 and travel with their vehicles, including cars, vans, SUVs, motorcycles, and even small boats or jet-skis.

Customers in the Sleeping Car will notice enhancements such as upgraded towels and bed linens and other pleasantries in each room. The dining car will feature a new menu and the addition of complimentary wine to the dinner service. This complimentary dinner service will become an exclusive amenity to Sleeping Car customers beginning on Jan. 15, 2020.

Amtrak will also expand the availability of every Sleeping Car accommodation — Roomette, Bedroom, Family Bedroom and Accessible Bedroom — to meet the demand for this class of service.

Coach customers will continue to take advantage of low fares and can choose from new dining options with the debut of the Cross-Country Café. Beginning on Jan. 15, 2020, the new menu will offer more meals, snacks and beverages for sale. At that time, Coach class tickets will no longer include complimentary dinner service. Coach customers will receive a complimentary continental breakfast prior to arrival at the Amtrak stations in Lorton, Va., or Sanford, Fla.

For all customers, food trucks will be on-site in Lorton, Va., and Sanford, Fla., to offer a variety of dining options before their journey begins.

“These upgrades represent an investment in improving the travel experience on this one-of-a-kind train,” Amtrak President and CEO Richard Anderson said. “Our continued success depends on increasing customer satisfaction by upgrading sleeping accommodations, keeping Coach as an affordable option and providing more choice in food options in the station and onboard.”

By the start of 2020, customers can take advantage of additional offers to travel on the Auto Train:


Share Fares will be available for travel with up to three companions. The discount will be up to 70% for a group of four and apply to select departures
The Oversized Vehicles fare will be available for minivans, full-size pick-up trucks and SUVs with three or more rows. This option will allow customers to pack more into their vehicle.
Amtrak Guest Rewards Select Executive members will receive a complimentary priority offload coupon as part of their tier member benefits.
**[paste:font size="4"]For More Information*
* Kimberly Woods [/paste:font]

Amtrak Contact
[email protected]
202 906.3860
About Amtrak®
Amtrak offers a more comfortable and convenient travel experience with free Wi-Fi on most trains, plenty of leg room and no middle seat. With our state and commuter partners, we move people, the economy and the nation forward, carrying more than 30 million Amtrak customers for each of the past eight years. Amtrak operates more than 300 trains daily, connecting more than 500 destinations in 46 states, the District of Columbia and three Canadian Provinces, and reaches 400 additional destinations via connecting bus routes. Book travel, check train status, access your eTicket and more through the Amtrak app. Learn more at Amtrak.com.
*


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## lordsigma (Jul 16, 2019)

The announcement on Amtrak’s advisories page also touts a new $89 coach fare (which is occasionally showing up if I do a search.) although the press release on the $89 fare makes it sound like it’s just a limited time sale. But with these changes maybe these types of sales will become common. The biggest problem I see for me is I don’t know what to make of this oversized vehicle language. Are they going to allow larger vehicles than they do now or is this a new thing to charge everyone with bigger vehicles more money - as I have a pickup truck. If they are charging a higher fare for all minivans, SUVs, and pickups then it would make sense to charge a fare lower than the current one for smaller vehicles if they are trying to incentivize people not to bring the biggest vehicles.


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## dogbert617 (Jul 16, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Unless they plan on cutting coach capacity, I have grave concerns about this. I'm imaging a seriously late Auto Train, Ping Ponging back and forth between terminals and not having enough food to serve the coach passengers. The current Auto train actually has two cafe cars. I wonder if they will still have two.



I agree with you, that I have grave concerns what this change after mid-January 2020 will mean to Auto Train. If it's like the Cross Country Cafe menu used on CONO and Texas Eagle, maybe it won't be totally bad. OTOH if this change means contemporary dining and that coach passengers on Auto Train only will be able to eat food out of the cafe car, then ugh this sounds like a very bad idea to implement.


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## jiml (Jul 16, 2019)

It's too bad the Auto Train is limited to passengers with vehicles. I know this defeats the purpose, but how great would it be to park your car in a huge parking lot and board a non-stop train to warmer weather? It would just like flying to Florida without the hassles of security lines, flight cancellations due to weather, etc. Heck, I have friends near Lorton that would let me park in their driveway and take me to the station.


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## JustOnce (Jul 16, 2019)

jiml said:


> It's too bad the Auto Train is limited to passengers with vehicles. I know this defeats the purpose, but how great would it be to park your car in a huge parking lot and board a non-stop train to warmer weather? It would just like flying to Florida without the hassles of security lines, flight cancellations due to weather, etc. Heck, I have friends near Lorton that would let me park in their driveway and take me to the station.


I think the autoracks are the capacity limiter. There might be unsold bed spaces and coach seats even when the 33 (I think that's the max unless they deadhead one) racks are filled.


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## Rasputin (Jul 16, 2019)

The joke continues. Comrades, anything that the current Amtrak management touts as an improvement is usually nothing more than newspeak.


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## dogbert617 (Jul 16, 2019)

jiml said:


> It's too bad the Auto Train is limited to passengers with vehicles. I know this defeats the purpose, but how great would it be to park your car in a huge parking lot and board a non-stop train to warmer weather? It would just like flying to Florida without the hassles of security lines, flight cancellations due to weather, etc. Heck, I have friends near Lorton that would let me park in their driveway and take me to the station.



You'd think, that Amtrak would allow passengers including ones without cars, to ride the Auto Train! Too bad, that isn't the case.


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## lordsigma (Jul 16, 2019)

dogbert617 said:


> You'd think, that Amtrak would allow passengers including ones without cars, to ride the Auto Train! Too bad, that isn't the case.


You can ride the auto train without a car - you'd just need to get dropped off by a friend or cab or rideshare service as there isn't a long term parking lot.


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## PVD (Jul 16, 2019)

An AutoTrain reservation requires a vehicle. Obviously one vehicle can be "the vehicle" for a bunch of people traveling together, but passenger only travel is not supposed to be bookable.
from the AT schedule:
Requirements • Only passengers with four-tire, two-axle vehicles or motorcycles may travel on Auto Train. •


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## desertflyer (Jul 16, 2019)

Tired, played out food trucks aren't going to attract "millenials" (mind you millenials are now 23-38 years old). Decent onboard offerings might. Getting rid of the car requirement and better connecting the Auto Train into the Amtrak network would definitely do more to sell seats.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Jul 16, 2019)

That’s a good point, allowing a limited amount of carless passengers would open the door to another group of customers and revenue. Nonstop overnight train travel from the NE to FL would appeal to more than snowbirds.


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## priller (Jul 16, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> You can ride the auto train without a car - you'd just need to get dropped off by a friend or cab or rideshare service as there isn't a long term parking lot.



Uh ... But you will be paying the $200+ charge for the vehicle, that is in addition to the passenger ticket. The system will not let you book a ticket without adding a vehicle. 

"Problem with Vehicle Selection: To book a reservation on the Auto Train you must bring a vehicle. Please select one of these options below and resubmit.
[Error ID: 595S]"

EDIT: Actually ... when you checkin inside the terminal, they ask you to present the folder with the car number provided to you at the gate. So, no avoiding the requirement.


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## Rasputin (Jul 16, 2019)

desertflyer said:


> Tired, played out food trucks aren't going to attract "millenials" (mind you millenials are now 23-38 years old). Decent onboard offerings might. Getting rid of the car requirement and better connecting the Auto Train into the Amtrak network would definitely do more to sell seats.


I realize that food trucks can put out some very good food but this is the first time I have ever seen a corporation describe the availability of food trucks as an enhancement.


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## JustOnce (Jul 16, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> I realize that food trucks can put out some very good food but this is the first time I have ever seen a corporation describe the availability of food trucks as an enhancement.


I know of a few microbreweries that beg to differ.


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## jiml (Jul 16, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> I realize that food trucks can put out some very good food but this is the first time I have ever seen a corporation describe the availability of food trucks as an enhancement.


Marriott tried this (and still advertise it as a "feature") at some of its hotels that used to include a light supper. It was a cutback, not an enhancement, and it didn't take customers long to adjust. The only thing the hotels provided after the change was seating; everything else was on customers' dime. Most of the individual hotels have reversed the change on the local level.


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## Qapla (Jul 16, 2019)

While I can appreciate the non-stop virtue of the AT ... I think a "limited-stop" would not take away the quickness of the train as compared to normal scheduled trains.

As it is now, someone from the Jacksonville area must drive well over 2 hours south to board a train that is going to take them back north to the station in Jacksonville. (It is my understanding the train stops in Jax to receive fuel, water and minimal servicing) In reality, the drive to the depot in Sanford from Jax can take quite a while since traffic can be problematic.

It seems to me that a car loading facility could be established in Jacksonville, especially since the area by the station already receives cars by rail, allowing people in the north part of the state to load in Jax instead of having to drive south just to go north - the pre-loaded car could be appended to the train coming from Sanford or removed for the train coming from Lorton.

This would make using the AT much more attractive to those in the panhandle area.

But then, I think there should be auto-trains heading to other destinations ... like Chicago and the West Coast.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 16, 2019)

Qapla said:


> While I can appreciate the non-stop virtue of the AT ... I think a "limited-stop" would not take away the quickness of the train as compared to normal scheduled trains.
> 
> As it is now, someone from the Jacksonville area must drive well over 2 hours south to board a train that is going to take them back north to the station in Jacksonville. (It is my understanding the train stops in Jax to receive fuel, water and minimal servicing) In reality, the drive to the depot in Sanford from Jax can take quite a while since traffic can be problematic.
> 
> ...


The SS and SM refuel in Jacksonville but the AT passes through without stopping; it refuels in Florence, SC.


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## lordsigma (Jul 16, 2019)

priller said:


> Uh ... But you will be paying the $200+ charge for the vehicle, that is in addition to the passenger ticket. The system will not let you book a ticket without adding a vehicle.
> 
> "Problem with Vehicle Selection: To book a reservation on the Auto Train you must bring a vehicle. Please select one of these options below and resubmit.
> [Error ID: 595S]"
> ...



Was not aware of that - I was under the impression you could but good to know. In that case I would agree with your suggestion that they should allow it. My apologies for the error.


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## bretton88 (Jul 16, 2019)

Isn't the Auto Train limited in the total length it can be? Therefore by adding sleepers, it implies a cutback in coaches? Or am I wrong here?


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## ehbowen (Jul 17, 2019)

Keep in mind that the _Auto Train _was started, by a private concern, _after _Amtrak had already assumed national rail passenger service. In order not to fall afoul of the "Amtrak non-compete" requirements in the law, Seaboard Coast Line required and the Auto-Train corporation agreed that these would be treated as freight trains, would operate under freight train rules, and that the carriage of passengers would be only incidental...as in the days of "drovers" and "banana messengers" accompanying freight shipments of livestock and fresh fruit. No passengers could be carried without an accompanying automobile. To the best of my knowledge, that agreement is still active. If Amtrak were to attempt to modify it without CSX consent (which we all know is _so_ easy to obtain) then the railroad would be justified in telling Amtrak to drop the auto carriers altogether and to treat it as a new passenger train taking up a new slot...with payment due accordingly.


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## dogbert617 (Jul 17, 2019)

Qapla said:


> While I can appreciate the non-stop virtue of the AT ... I think a "limited-stop" would not take away the quickness of the train as compared to normal scheduled trains.
> 
> As it is now, someone from the Jacksonville area must drive well over 2 hours south to board a train that is going to take them back north to the station in Jacksonville. (It is my understanding the train stops in Jax to receive fuel, water and minimal servicing) In reality, the drive to the depot in Sanford from Jax can take quite a while since traffic can be problematic.
> 
> ...



I thought the only servicing stop for the Auto Train(Sanford to Lorton), was in Florence, SC? I could be wrong about this(as I'd never rode this train), but remember others mentioning this around the time the smoking lounges on the Auto Train were removed in 2013, requiring smokers to smoke on the platform in Florence during that servicing stop.

And yes, it'd be nice if the former Auto Train route between Louisville, KY to Florida would be restored. Probably it won't though, sadly to think. A la my worry that the Floridian train probably won't come back, anytime soon. Or if say, one was ever created on the west coast.



ehbowen said:


> Keep in mind that the _Auto Train _was started, by a private concern, _after _Amtrak had already assumed national rail passenger service. In order not to fall afoul of the "Amtrak non-compete" requirements in the law, Seaboard Coast Line required and the Auto-Train corporation agreed that these would be treated as freight trains, would operate under freight train rules, and that the carriage of passengers would be only incidental...as in the days of "drovers" and "banana messengers" accompanying freight shipments of livestock and fresh fruit. No passengers could be carried without an accompanying automobile. To the best of my knowledge, that agreement is still active. If Amtrak were to attempt to modify it without CSX consent (which we all know is _so_ easy to obtain) then the railroad would be justified in telling Amtrak to drop the auto carriers altogether and to treat it as a new passenger train taking up a new slot...with payment due accordingly.



Ah, I see. Hearing that info, I doubt the way the Auto Train operates(that at least one driver rides on that train with his/her car, if not fellow passengers also tagging along) will ever change, then.


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## dogbert617 (Jul 17, 2019)

Here's the whole Auto Train announcement, about 'enhancements' Amtrak will do to this train over the next 6 months(copied and pasted from the alert I saw on Amtrak's website):

*Auto Train Enhancements*
Effective by 2020
Over the next six months, Amtrak will be introducing several changes and enhancements to the Auto Train customer experience as outlined below.
*Sleeping Car Customers*

More room availability, including Roomette, Bedroom, Family Bedroom and Accessible Bedroom
Upgraded bedding, towels, linens and other pleasantries added to every room
New sleeping car menu for dinner and breakfast
Complimentary red or white wine with dinner
Complimentary meals offered exclusively for sleeping car customers beginning January 15, 2020
*Coach Class*

Introduction of the Cross-Country Café for Coach customer dining, offering an expanded café menu of meals, snacks and beverages for purchase
Effective January 15, 2020, Coach class tickets will no longer include complimentary dinner service
A complimentary continental breakfast will be available for Coach customers in the Cross-Country Café prior to arrival in Lorton or Sanford
One-way fares for Coach remain low, starting at $89 + cost of vehicle
*Updates to Service by 2020*

For those customers traveling in small groups: Share Fares will be expanded to include Auto Train on select departures, offering discounted travel up to 35%
For those customers who can pack more into their car: the introduction of an ‘Oversized Vehicles’ fare for minivans, full-size pick-up trucks and SUVs with 3+ rows
An opportunity for complimentary priority offload: Amtrak Guest Rewards Select Executive members will now receive a complimentary priority offload coupon as part of their tier member benefits.
All customers will now have a wider variety of food options prior to travel with the introduction of food trucks on-site in Lorton and Sanford for all departing customers.
PSN 0719-86

No more complimentary dinner service for coach passengers in Auto Train? Though I see breakfast is allegedly still complimentary, for coach passengers. This is a disappointing change about dinner, in my opinion!

Hadn't read Texas Eagle in ages, and hadn't yet CONO, so can anyone say for sure if Cross Country Cafe has more menu options vs. a typical cafe car? I'll guess it does, but not sure by how many additional menu items vs. a typical Amtrak long distance train cafe car(for long distance, and regional Midwest trains with them)


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## ehbowen (Jul 17, 2019)

The Cross-Country Cafe on the _Texas Eagle _is essentially operated as a standard dining car, albeit with the use of only half of the table space (the other half is used by the lounge). These cars were converted from Superliner diners and as far as I know they retain their full set of cooking equipment. So the potential quality of the meal service ranges from top-notch to barely edible, depending on how the cars and kitchens are stocked and staffed. It's entirely in Amtrak's hands...which means, unfortunately, that I'm expecting something at the lower end of the spectrum.


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## me_little_me (Jul 17, 2019)

Qapla said:


> But then, I think there should be auto-trains heading to other destinations ... like Chicago and the West Coast.


Anderson would do it on the Chief with "caritution". You and your car get off the train, then you drive yourself on the proposed bustitution route to ABQ then you and the car get back on the train to California. It will be called "Contemporary Training".


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## bretton88 (Jul 17, 2019)

I should note, with the inclusion of things like the share fares and sale fares (which mostly excluded the AT), Amtrak does appear to be cutting coach fares to go with the downgrade. So I'm not too upset about the changes.


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## lordsigma (Jul 17, 2019)

I will admit I do feel a little bit different about the auto train compared to other long distance trains. It is a purely leisure train that you can't really make the essential travel argument for - one could make a reasonable argument that it should probably make a profit (or that they should at least try to make it break even.) The Auto Train probably could break if they attracted younger people with the lower fares combined with the likely significant cost reductions with eliminating the coach meal service. As of the performance reports this May the Auto Train is closer than ever to breaking even with a lower deficit than even the Palmetto and this is WITH coach dining still on board. I am cautiously optimistic the new sleeper menu is an upgrade and not contemporary dining - AT is not a train that should be on Anderson's hit list - it makes a ton of revenue with the car hauling and there is likely a world where it could break even or even in the black and performs better financially than some of the state supported corridors - this should be a route that Amtrak wants in its portfolio regardless of what happens with the other LD trains.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 17, 2019)

dogbert617 said:


> If it's like the Cross Country Cafe menu used on CONO and Texas Eagle, maybe it won't be totally bad



The cross country cafe hasn’t operated as such in like 10 years. On the eagle it is operated as a full diner. On the city they now offer barely edible food.

The original cross country cafe cars offered food that was cooked in the full diner kitchen. It lasted for like... 6-12 months?

The original goals of the CCC are long gone. Extended hours of meal service, lounge service until arriving at the terminal, regional food, and even “fresh scrambled eggs and the return of ice cream” - these were all advertised as “enhancements” of the CCC cars.


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## toddinde (Jul 17, 2019)

desertflyer said:


> Tired, played out food trucks aren't going to attract "millenials" (mind you millenials are now 23-38 years old). Decent onboard offerings might. Getting rid of the car requirement and better connecting the Auto Train into the Amtrak network would definitely do more to sell seats.



The Auto-Train is a niche and presumably profitable. Why not just improve the Silver Meteor and Star? They’re already connected to the Amtrak system, new diners and sleepers have been delivered, and the stations are in the cities and not in the boondocks? The improvements to Auto Train are good. It shows Amtrak has the creativity to do good things. Overnight trains in Europe and the UK are having a renaissance. The Meteor, Star and Crescent are prime for upgrades.


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## HGSCS (Jul 17, 2019)

toddinde said:


> The Auto-Train is a niche and presumably profitable. Why not just improve the Silver Meteor and Star? They’re already connected to the Amtrak system, new diners and sleepers have been delivered, and the stations are in the cities and not in the boondocks? The improvements to Auto Train are good. It shows Amtrak has the creativity to do good things. Overnight trains in Europe and the UK are having a renaissance. The Meteor, Star and Crescent are prime for upgrades.


Has Amtrak ever thought of an express train that stops in New York, Philly, Baltimore and DC with no other stops until Orlando and perhaps Miami? I’m assuming there is a reason why they don’t have one. But one can always dream.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 17, 2019)

If Iowa Pacific had gotten off the ground I'm sure Ed Ellis would have tried something like that. I think there is a market there for a premium product.... but Amtrak doesn't seem capable of providing it. 

DC to Florida is all CSX right? (with a little bit of Amtrak thrown in now unless you cut a deal with Brightline once they open their track). I mean you'd have to fund the start-up but if you had the money CSX might talk to you. You wouldn't even need more than one train set at the start.


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## chrsjrcj (Jul 17, 2019)

HGSCS said:


> Has Amtrak ever thought of an express train that stops in New York, Philly, Baltimore and DC with no other stops until Orlando and perhaps Miami? I’m assuming there is a reason why they don’t have one. But one can always dream.



During early Amtrak, there was an express trains from the Northeast to South Florida. 
1971-72 winter season: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19720116&item=0060
1972-73 winter season: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19721029&item=0046


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 17, 2019)

DC to Florida is all CSX except the silver star which is on NS from Selma connection to scary, NC.


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## iliketrains (Jul 18, 2019)

delete


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## cocojacoby (Jul 18, 2019)

chrsjrcj said:


> During early Amtrak, there was an express trains from the Northeast to South Florida.
> 1971-72 winter season: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19720116&item=0060
> 1972-73 winter season: http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19721029&item=0046



Someone please help me here. How was there a thru-service from Boston leaving at 9:40 AM that continued on the Champion leaving NYP at 3:40 PM and the Silver Meteor leaving NYP at 2:55 PM? And somehow the reverse was possible northbound. Two sets of through cars carried on a corridor train that were separately switched to the Florida trains in NYP? Were they coaches and sleepers?

I wish through cars to Boston return someday. Now that the diners will soon be reduced to prepackaged meals, the argument of not being able to supply diners in Boston is moot.


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## jis (Jul 18, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> DC to Florida is all CSX except the silver star which is on NS from Selma connection to scary, NC.



DC (CP Virginia) to JAX is all CSX. Within Florida it is no longer all CSX. There is SFRTA, CFRC and now even a bit of Amtrak.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 18, 2019)

HGSCS said:


> Has Amtrak ever thought of an express train that stops in New York, Philly, Baltimore and DC with no other stops until Orlando and perhaps Miami? I’m assuming there is a reason why they don’t have one. But one can always dream.



One of the problems is that the tax payers who will be subsidizing that new express Amtrak train, will complain loudly to their congressional representatives if their town is bypassed.

Its like many high speed train proposals. Yea, it is high speed until it has to stop every 5 miles.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 19, 2019)

bretton88 said:


> Isn't the Auto Train limited in the total length it can be? Therefore by adding sleepers, it implies a cutback in coaches? Or am I wrong here?



There is a maximum length but steps have been in the works over the last couple of years to extend the length by a handful of cars. 

The things that are on my mind:

How much room do you have in cross country cafe to stock enough food to combat a lengthy delay?

If the Auto Train is in one of its death cycles and is ping ponging back and for 5 hours+ late at its initial terminals, will the food trucks still be out there at 10pm?

Finally, if there is a push for more sleeping car capacity, what train (or trains) will sacrifice their equipment to fill in? Will someone use those diminished numbers on that particular (right sized) train to declare " ridership is down on that train" and/or "long distance trains are dying?"


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## Rasputin (Jul 19, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> How much room do you have in cross country cafe to stock enough food to combat a lengthy delay?


The auto train uses superliner equipment if I understand correctly so in a cross country café, wouldn't the entire lower level be available for storage (unless I have some basic misunderstanding of the configuration of the cross country café.) You could store two elephants down there not that I am suggesting that for the menu.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 19, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> The auto train uses superliner equipment if I understand correctly so in a cross country café, wouldn't the entire lower level be available for storage (unless I have some basic misunderstanding of the configuration of the cross country café.) You could store two elephants down there not that I am suggesting that for the menu.



I'm not well versed on Superliner equipment so I'm assuming the lower level can handle snacks, sodas and other items that don't require refrigeration. 

I was thinking more on along the lines of items that require refrigeration or freezing. Is there enough capacity to have enough readily available in case of a disruption(which would at least bring in revenue) or is this the ol' (non revenue) Beef Stew territory?

I suppose if the current Auto train is late enough, they break out the stew anyway?


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## neroden (Jul 19, 2019)

I wouldn't worry about the food supply; you can fit an elephant in the lower level of a Superliner. 

The real question is, what train are they stealing the extra Superliner sleepers from? There are no extra Superliner sleepers. During the summer season, there are no Superliner trains which can make do with less. (On the other hand, the Auto Train is less popular in the summer -- maybe they'll do something sane like putting the sleepers on the Transcons in the summer and the Auto Train in the winter.)


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## ehbowen (Jul 19, 2019)

The Cross-Country Cafes retain the normal food handling equipment of a Superliner diner, so storage space is not an issue. They sacrifice half of the table space upstairs in order to create a small lounge.


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## FormerOBS (Jul 31, 2019)

I will only say that the Auto Train Onboard Service Crew members --- especially the long-term veterans --- are very unhappy that they will be expected to deliver such a diluted level of service. They frequently tell me I should be glad to be retired, Not only will this be a degrading of service, but it is also likely to create other practical problems related to generation of excessive trash and a reduction of staff. If the train is extremely late, there seems to be no way to provide emergency food supplies because the elimination of the coach diner means the likely elimination of storage space for those supplies. As long as the train runs over CSX, and auto drivers continue to get smacked by trains, and the Southeast continues to experience hurricanes, there will be occasional delays. Please don't blame the crews. None of this was their idea.


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## FormerOBS (Aug 1, 2019)

Certain people in the organization seem to believe space will not be an issue. There are those who predict that cramming all of the coach passengers into that small space will create an issue. Of course, food storage isn't a problem if minimal food is provided for coach passengers. The Company seems to expect that coach passengers will buy all of their food for the trip from vans parked outside the station. I'm curious to see just where these food trucks will park. I really don't want to be there to see long lines of passengers queued up for service in a January snowstorm in Lorton, or in a summer rainstorm in Sanford. If the train is significantly late, will the food service car have sufficient supplies to sell lunches to the coach passengers? This is certainly a factor on a train that relies on CSX dispatching and serves a hurricane-prone region. And don't forget the motorists who think they can beat the train to the crossing. The new regimen seems to rely on the notion that nothing will ever go wrong to disrupt a rigid schedule. 

Amtrak has little or no control over food brought in from outside now, and will have even less control under this scheme. FDA regulations prohibit the use of Amtrak microwave ovens for heating food brought from outside, and this is bound to be a bone of contention. I can only imagine the amount of trash that will be generated. Currently, trash from dinner service is collected in the diner and put off the train at Florence, SC by one of the attendants. Under the new scheme, trash will instead accumulate in each of the coaches. Projected staff cuts of approximately 20-25% could mean there is nobody but the conductor to remove that trash. Asking a conductor to assume routine trash collection duties is something like a hospital expecting the chief surgeon to mop the floor. Ain't likely to happen. I'm concerned about multi-legged unticketed "passengers". 

As an Auto Train veteran, I sincerely hope my misgivings are unfounded. For years, our good reputation depended on our ability to provide good service, even under difficult circumstances. This was possible because our experience taught us to be prepared to handle unexpected problems. I fear that the new "plan" doesn't allow for this. I want to be wrong.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Aug 1, 2019)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> One of the problems is that the tax payers who will be subsidizing that new express Amtrak train, will complain loudly to their congressional representatives if their town is bypassed.
> 
> Its like many high speed train proposals. Yea, it is high speed until it has to stop every 5 miles.



As opposed to having to pay for LD trains that don't even go for trains anywhere near where you live as is the case now? What's the difference?


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 1, 2019)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> As opposed to having to pay for LD trains that don't even go for trains anywhere near where you live as is the case now? What's the difference?



For the most part, these LD trains you are talking about aren't new service. Same-oh, same-oh, doesn't get the focus of attention as much as something that is brand new.

A good example is that Allentown PA (the 3rd largest city in the commonwealth) now has official Amtrak service. True, its just a bus, but that how service is achieved isn't as important as it being achieved.


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## Anderson (Aug 2, 2019)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> One of the problems is that the tax payers who will be subsidizing that new express Amtrak train, will complain loudly to their congressional representatives if their town is bypassed.
> 
> Its like many high speed train proposals. Yea, it is high speed until it has to stop every 5 miles.


Having raised the prospect of this sort of thing, in general, a few times in the past:
(1) There's a historical precedent for something like this in the form of the _Orange Blossom Special_ and the _Florida Special_. In those cases, the model was mostly to run close-to-express from about Richmond to Florida (Florence was still a stop for the _Florida Special_ because of a crew change, but the 1941 _Orange Blossom Special_ omitted all intermediate stops from the timetable). The issue is that you _only_ dropped about 30-60 minutes from the end-to-end run (24-25 hours became 23-24 hours) depending on the direction, etc. and in doing so you give up a slug of intermediate traffic. Bear in mind that on the current timetable, you only have a stop something like every 50+ miles between WAS and JAX.
(2) Even presuming that most traffic will consolidate within reason within Florida (e.g. Winter Park/Kissimmee to Orlando), you still have a rather good chunk of traffic that scatters among the various stations. Miami accounts for less than 1/3 of the South Florida traffic, and I don't think folks will "consolidate" from WPB to MIA (that's a messy two-hour drive involving overshooting on the train).

Edit: So, for a bottom line, I'm just not sure that such a train is viable. You'd probably get 80-90% of the timetable benefits from improving MAS on portions of the tracks from 79 to 90 or 110 and/or improving slow chunks to get the relevant MAS up closer to 79 (e.g. Baltimore, parts of Jacksonville). And you don't quite have the mass of ridership that you had in the 1950s.


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## bretton88 (Aug 2, 2019)

As far as coach passengers go, they are getting a cut in their fares, so they won't be paying for that degraded service. What I'm curious about is the sleeper diner service. From what I've heard it won't be contemporary dining, so I wonder if Amtrak is going to trial something more upscale here. It is one of the easier trains to pilot something "experiential" as Anderson likes to refer to it.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 2, 2019)

bretton88 said:


> As far as coach passengers go, they are getting a cut in their fares, so they won't be paying for that degraded service. What I'm curious about is the sleeper diner service. From what I've heard it won't be contemporary dining, so I wonder if Amtrak is going to trial something more upscale here. It is one of the easier trains to pilot something "experiential" as Anderson likes to refer to it.


Based on the wording it sounds as though discounts are likely to be offered in limited fashion leaving the majority of coach passengers with reduced service at the same fares.


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## mmatarella (Aug 2, 2019)

The oversized vehicle charge is a return to how it was a few years back. I used to choose between bringing my SUV or my MINI based on if I really needed the bigger vehicle.


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## PVD (Aug 2, 2019)

It depends on what they classify as an SUV. Lots of parking lots in NYC have an oversized surcharge, but the dimensions keep smaller SUV like a RAV-4 or my Escape paying the car rate. The shorter length minivans are ok, but the long ones or any 3 row suv get whacked.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 2, 2019)

Anderson said:


> Having raised the prospect of this sort of thing, in general, a few times in the past:
> (1) There's a historical precedent for something like this in the form of the _Orange Blossom Special_ and the _Florida Special_. In those cases, the model was mostly to run close-to-express from about Richmond to Florida (Florence was still a stop for the _Florida Special_ because of a crew change, but the 1941 _Orange Blossom Special_ omitted all intermediate stops from the timetable). The issue is that you _only_ dropped about 30-60 minutes from the end-to-end run (24-25 hours became 23-24 hours) depending on the direction, etc. and in doing so you give up a slug of intermediate traffic. Bear in mind that on the current timetable, you only have a stop something like every 50+ miles between WAS and JAX.
> (2) Even presuming that most traffic will consolidate within reason within Florida (e.g. Winter Park/Kissimmee to Orlando), you still have a rather good chunk of traffic that scatters among the various stations. Miami accounts for less than 1/3 of the South Florida traffic, and I don't think folks will "consolidate" from WPB to MIA (that's a messy two-hour drive involving overshooting on the train).
> 
> Edit: So, for a bottom line, I'm just not sure that such a train is viable. You'd probably get 80-90% of the timetable benefits from improving MAS on portions of the tracks from 79 to 90 or 110 and/or improving slow chunks to get the relevant MAS up closer to 79 (e.g. Baltimore, parts of Jacksonville). And you don't quite have the mass of ridership that you had in the 1950s.



The Orange Blossom Special ran on the Seaboard Airline via Raleigh, and Columbia. It did stop for passengers at its crew changes. The Atlantic Coastline via Florence, Charleston operated the Florida Special on the route. It actually lasted longer than the Orange Blossom.


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## bretton88 (Aug 2, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Based on the wording it sounds as though discounts are likely to be offered in limited fashion leaving the majority of coach passengers with reduced service at the same fares.


The share fares are pretty permanent and now apply to the Auto Train. That's a pretty good discount. Most Auto Train passengers don't travel solo so most wouldn't be paying full price.


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## Hans627 (Oct 24, 2019)

What's the latest news on dinner service on the Autotrain?

Thanks!


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## AmtrakWPK (Oct 24, 2019)

dogbert617 said:


> You'd think, that Amtrak would allow passengers including ones without cars, to ride the Auto Train! Too bad, that isn't the case.


So we have identified a new need - a rideshare network for non-driving people that want to sign on as additional passengers with drivers that are going to travel on Auto Train but who will have empty space in their vehicle. They will have to do that prior to reservations being made, I think, because I believe all pax have to be included in the reservation, but it should be doable, and it should be attractive to the driver since it would lower their overall cost. For pax riding in coach, that should work. Is it possible for a large pax count in one vehicle (like a three-row minivan) to do partly sleeper and partiy coach? I've not traveled on A-T so I don't know.


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## OBS (Oct 25, 2019)

AmtrakWPK said:


> So we have identified a new need - a rideshare network for non-driving people that want to sign on as additional passengers with drivers that are going to travel on Auto Train but who will have empty space in their vehicle. They will have to do that prior to reservations being made, I think, because I believe all pax have to be included in the reservation, but it should be doable, and it should be attractive to the driver since it would lower their overall cost. For pax riding in coach, that should work. Is it possible for a large pax count in one vehicle (like a three-row minivan) to do partly sleeper and partiy coach? I've not traveled on A-T so I don't know.


Yes


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## lordsigma (Oct 25, 2019)

Hans627 said:


> What's the latest news on dinner service on the Autotrain?
> 
> Thanks!



Nothing is changed yet. Eventually coach dining will be replaced with an “expanded cafe menu”. Sleeper dining will still be a full service dining car and will receive a complimentary glass of wine.


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## pennyk (Oct 25, 2019)

AmtrakWPK said:


> So we have identified a new need - a rideshare network for non-driving people that want to sign on as additional passengers with drivers that are going to travel on Auto Train but who will have empty space in their vehicle. They will have to do that prior to reservations being made, I think, because I believe all pax have to be included in the reservation, but it should be doable, and it should be attractive to the driver since it would lower their overall cost. For pax riding in coach, that should work. Is it possible for a large pax count in one vehicle (like a three-row minivan) to do partly sleeper and partiy coach? I've not traveled on A-T so I don't know.


The last time I traveled on the Auto Train was a few years back and without my car. However, I knew a friend would be traveling with his car and I linked my resesrvation to his. His reservation was made before mine. I was a passenger in my friend's car to Lorton and from Sanford.
If one does not have a car and links their reservation to someone with a car who they do not know, there may be issues getting to and from the Auto Train stations and checking in at the same time as the car owner.


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## lordsigma (Oct 25, 2019)

Auto train has a new POS system in the lounge and dining cars with new card readers. They supposedly went in in August. Have never seen this style on any other Amtrak trains.


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## neroden (Oct 26, 2019)

It appears that Amtrak management's goal is to drive away coach passengers, since that's pretty much the only thing which will result from this change. This, of course, will be bad for Amtrak's bottom line. But I suppose the fanatics who hate anything which is referred to as "long distance" just can't stand that the Auto Train is profitable, and have to sabotage it to make it unprofitable.


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## lordsigma (Oct 27, 2019)

I’m not so sure this train is on the target list for train offs. They probably think they can get the train into the black through this cut and Other changes. If the cut is accompanied by a lowering of the bucket prices that may make up for people that leave over this change. The auto train is a very unique service that has a lot of utility in transporting your car on a very common trip for a lot of folks. The removal of free coach dining while annoying for those passengers does not remove that utility value. If the fares are low people will still use it.


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## Anderson (Oct 27, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> I’m not so sure this train is on the target list for train offs. They probably think they can get the train into the black through this cut and Other changes. If the cut is accompanied by a lowering of the bucket prices that may make up for people that leave over this change. The auto train is a very unique service that has a lot of utility in transporting your car on a very common trip for a lot of folks. The removal of free coach dining while annoying for those passengers does not remove that utility value. If the fares are low people will still use it.


Given that everyone is on for a 16-ish hour trip (probably closer to 17-18 hours once you account for loading/disembarking time), I think it probably _does_ matter. Now, I suspect that the real damage comes not from the meal _not being included_ but from it _not being available_. That's a primary complaint across the board here: Amtrak is, in fact, by their own numbers turning away over a third of their dining car customers (the number tended to hover around 40% of all diner meals) from the replacement option.

And I'm not going to lie: If this had been the policy when I first took Amtrak over a decade ago, that probably would have been my first and last overnight trip (and it might well have soured me on Amtrak sufficient to generally drive my business away). Granted, that was on the Silvers and not the Auto Train, but the point still stands

As to the "eventually", I'm still waiting on points-and-cash reservations with AGR. "Eventually" improvements have become something that I will believe when I see.


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## lordsigma (Oct 27, 2019)

Anderson said:


> Given that everyone is on for a 16-ish hour trip (probably closer to 17-18 hours once you account for loading/disembarking time), I think it probably _does_ matter. Now, I suspect that the real damage comes not from the meal _not being included_ but from it _not being available_. That's a primary complaint across the board here: Amtrak is, in fact, by their own numbers turning away over a third of their dining car customers (the number tended to hover around 40% of all diner meals) from the replacement option.
> 
> And I'm not going to lie: If this had been the policy when I first took Amtrak over a decade ago, that probably would have been my first and last overnight trip (and it might well have soured me on Amtrak sufficient to generally drive my business away). Granted, that was on the Silvers and not the Auto Train, but the point still stands
> 
> As to the "eventually", I'm still waiting on points-and-cash reservations with AGR. "Eventually" improvements have become something that I will believe when I see.



Im not saying it doesn’t matter. If they don’t offer anything other than what is in the current cafe menu then I agree 100%. But they are saying it will be an “expanded” menu. If they offer more substantial meals for purchase, combined with generally cheaper coach tickets, then I think it may not be as much of an issue ridership wise.


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## neroden (Oct 28, 2019)

Anderson said:


> Given that everyone is on for a 16-ish hour trip (probably closer to 17-18 hours once you account for loading/disembarking time), I think it probably _does_ matter. Now, I suspect that the real damage comes not from the meal _not being included_ but from it _not being available_.



Bingo.



> That's a primary complaint across the board here: Amtrak is, in fact, by their own numbers turning away over a third of their dining car customers (the number tended to hover around 40% of all diner meals) from the replacement option.



This is why I think it's deliberate sabotage. It's combined with fare cuts and discounts, of all things. Cut costs by an insignificant amount, cut revenue by a much larger amount, then they can claim with a straight face that the train is "losing money" (which they could not honestly claim previously). If there's a saboteur in the Senior Executive Vice President's Office at Amtrak who hates the long distance trains, he would be apoplectic about the undeniable fact that the Eastern long distance trains are highly profitable. So deliberate attempts to lose more money would be his scheme, along the lines of Penn Central or Southern Pacific, of trying to convince Congress to let them get rid of the trains.

I've got a Gathering to go to, but there's a letter I ought to write to Richard Anderson and Amtrak's Board; I believe someone in the Amtrak executive office is actively and deliberately trying to cut ridership, cut revenue, and increase losses, which is contrary to Amtrak's mission as given by Congress. That person is also making Richard Anderson look like a fool. That person needs to be fired for cause pronto.


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## Anderson (Oct 29, 2019)

neroden said:


> This is why I think it's deliberate sabotage. It's combined with fare cuts and discounts, of all things. Cut costs by an insignificant amount, cut revenue by a much larger amount, then they can claim with a straight face that the train is "losing money" (which they could not honestly claim previously). If there's a saboteur in the Senior Executive Vice President's Office at Amtrak who hates the long distance trains, he would be apoplectic about the undeniable fact that the Eastern long distance trains are highly profitable. So deliberate attempts to lose more money would be his scheme, along the lines of Penn Central or Southern Pacific, of trying to convince Congress to let them get rid of the trains.
> 
> I've got a Gathering to go to, but there's a letter I ought to write to Richard Anderson and Amtrak's Board; I believe someone in the Amtrak executive office is actively and deliberately trying to cut ridership, cut revenue, and increase losses, which is contrary to Amtrak's mission as given by Congress. That person is also making Richard Anderson look like a fool. That person needs to be fired for cause pronto.


I've heard an unsubstantiated rumor that Anderson is getting _very_ sick of looking like a fool in front of Congress. I _will_ say that regardless of what complaints people may have about Jim Mathews, Jim has warned Anderson at every step of this mess what was going to happen and Jim has been right close to 100% of the time. Anderson's folks officially advising him on Capitol Hill, on the other hand, are batting close to 0.000. I _seriously_ have to wonder why there hasn't been a bit of high-profile turnover at this point.

Of course, given Congress's history as of late (even with some of the contradictory mandates that have slipped in there) I do wonder whether a ridership nosedive that correlates to closely to a service cut like this (and _cleanly_ correlates along the fiscal year, too) I think there's a good chance of severe blowback and something coming just short of legislation barring Amtrak from using any federal funds to "contemplate" the withdrawal of any LD services.


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## erierail (Oct 29, 2019)

neroden said:


> Bingo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## erierail (Oct 29, 2019)

First of all the railroads never went in front of Congress to remove trains. Railroads went before the state agency that the individual railroad operated its train through to get a train discontinued. It was President Richard Nixon's administration that create the national railroad passenger corporation to let railroads buy into the company in return for discontinuing thier passenger operations. The hope was that amtrak would fail and the burden of even operating a skeleton long distance passenger system would disappear.

In defense of the Penn Central, it had been losing millions of dollar on its passenger services and even more on unsubsidized commuter operations that they were required by law to operate.

Neither the New York Central nor the Pennsylvania RR would have considered a merger, if both were not on thier financial knees hoping a merger would save them both.

But we do owe both carriers some thanks for forwarding the passenger train into the future. The PRR work closely with the FRA and the us department of transportation to develope the metroliners and form the basis of the north east corridor. The orginal cars were delivered and tested in prr colors. They also soldiered the losses for its participation in forwarding the Florida trains and southern railway trains from nyc penn to was. The NYC cut a deal with the state of New York to drop most of its names silver fleet trains in return for maintaining a few long distance trains out of nyc grand central west. The new England states limited and many others died, but the NYC- alb- buf- Ngf trains survived and the empire service corridor was created. The penn central continued to operate trains from grand central station to Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. Along with many of the prr trains out of nyp. It ran trains to Toronto and Montreal till the end came may 1, 1971.

With that said, I do agree amtrak is trying to kill its last signature long distance passenger in the the east, the auto train, hopefully something Congress will address, though I doubt..

It might be doing it southern Pacific style, but not Penn central style. The sp was not dead broke in comparison to the quickly failing pc, which could ill afford but ran many decent trains to the end.


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## Thirdrail7 (Oct 29, 2019)

If they add higher revenue sleeping cars, lower the costs of delivering the coach product ( even though you are lowering the price), you may have a situation like the Star: an attraction to coach ridership due to the price.


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## toddinde (Oct 29, 2019)

The Interstate Commerce Commission had jurisdiction over the interstate trains. Railroads played a lot of games with that.


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## lordsigma (Oct 29, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> If they add higher revenue sleeping cars, lower the costs of delivering the coach product ( even though you are lowering the price), you may have a situation like the Star: an attraction to coach ridership due to the price.



I agree I am not convinced they are wanting to kill the auto train. Remember that they are leaving the traditional dining on this train for sleeper passengers. I think the idea is exactly that. To maximize the sleeper passenger revenue and to lower the cost of providing the coach service (and woo coach riders with lower cost tickets.) if they provide some sort of acceptable options in the cafe car along with the food trucks I don’t see there being a huge drop. I think the goal is to try to move the auto train into black territory by cutting coach costs and maximizing sleeper revenue.

They may very well want to cut/truncate/modify some of the long distance routes, but I don’t think the auto train is one of them.


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## railiner (Oct 29, 2019)

erierail said:


> First of all the railroads never went in front of Congress to remove trains. Railroads went before the state agency that the individual railroad operated its train through to get a train discontinued.



I recall the railroads petitioning the Interstate Commerce Commission to discontinue trains. But I also recall certain states accepting or rejecting such requests within their state...not sure how the law works. There were cases where an interstate train that was allowed to discontinue in a certain state, but not adjacent ones, would actually deadhead thru the discontinued state (kick off passengers), for operational convenience, where the equipment or crews were based...
I had thought that ICC authority superseded state regulatory authority, but it is still not clear to me...


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## Anderson (Oct 29, 2019)

The Auto Train accounts for an inordinate chunk of the F&B "losses":
https://amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001.pdf

Now, some of that is bad accounting that doesn't even seem to have fully transferred revenue over, and the train's fiscal situation has always been different... but at least on paper the Auto Train is one of the "bad" trains for F&B losses, even on a per-passenger basis.


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## erierail (Oct 30, 2019)

railiner said:


> I recall the railroads petitioning the Interstate Commerce Commission to discontinue trains. But I also recall certain states accepting or rejecting such requests within their state...not sure how the law works. There were cases where an interstate train that was allowed to discontinue in a certain state, but not adjacent ones, would actually deadhead thru the discontinued state (kick off passengers), for operational convenience, where the equipment or crews were based...
> I had thought that ICC authority superseded state regulatory authority, but it is still not clear to me...



I believe railroads were originally chartered by individual states, and they regulated individual carriers within thier state lines. The icc regulated trains crossing state lines.


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## dogbert617 (Nov 6, 2019)

AmtrakWPK said:


> So we have identified a new need - a rideshare network for non-driving people that want to sign on as additional passengers with drivers that are going to travel on Auto Train but who will have empty space in their vehicle. They will have to do that prior to reservations being made, I think, because I believe all pax have to be included in the reservation, but it should be doable, and it should be attractive to the driver since it would lower their overall cost. For pax riding in coach, that should work. Is it possible for a large pax count in one vehicle (like a three-row minivan) to do partly sleeper and partiy coach? I've not traveled on A-T so I don't know.



I love this idea, 'and will sign up for your newsletter!' (a la a certain past episode from The Simpsons long ago) And yep such an idea would work well, since taking on another passenger who doesn't own a car but wants to ride the AT, which for sure would lower the costs for everyone in that group of people in a car!


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## lordsigma (Nov 6, 2019)

Anderson said:


> The Auto Train accounts for an inordinate chunk of the F&B "losses":
> https://amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001.pdf
> 
> Now, some of that is bad accounting that doesn't even seem to have fully transferred revenue over, and the train's fiscal situation has always been different... but at least on paper the Auto Train is one of the "bad" trains for F&B losses, even on a per-passenger basis.



That pretty much explains why they’re doing it. Based on numbers, it appears Amtrak could get the auto train into black territory simply by reducing the commissary costs. The complimentary coach dining is undoubtedly a key reason for that high loss number on that route.


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## Palmland (Nov 6, 2019)

I too wonder if Amtrak is seeing if this change will put Auto-train in the black, as mentioned above. If so, could this be their vision for other LD routes with similar demand eg. An 18 hour overnight trip with large populations at both ends and, importantly, a need to have the family car with you. Could CZ or SWC morph into the Chicago area to Colorado’s front range, or perhaps the Bay Area to Portland or Seattle. 

From our travels this year, the Auto-Train was a far better experience than the SWC or Sunset.


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## Trogdor (Nov 6, 2019)

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned on here is that the Auto Train’s consist is limited by the HEP capacity. The explanation I’ve heard from the inside is that Amtrak wants to add sleeper capacity to increase revenue, but the trade off is either remove a coach car during peak season, which offsets the revenue gains, or remove a coach diner. But with the latter choice, the remaining food service cars then wouldn’t have the capacity to serve a full train. So, you drop the coach meals, save a bunch of costs in the process, and still benefit from the added sleeper revenue.

The other explanation I’ve heard is that Richard Anderson is a three-headed demon-monster that feasts on the souls of sugar plum fairies.


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## JustOnce (Nov 6, 2019)

Did a sleeper get added when the coach diner was dropped? I know a "full" AT is around 17 Superliners and 33-34 autoracks and that hasn't changed after October 1. I frequently watch the Ashland rail cam whose live chat has made a game out of guessing the number of locos/Superliners/racks in the consist. However, I can't see the individual cars closely enough to count sleepers vs coaches.


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## Anderson (Nov 6, 2019)

Trogdor said:


> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned on here is that the Auto Train’s consist is limited by the HEP capacity. The explanation I’ve heard from the inside is that Amtrak wants to add sleeper capacity to increase revenue, but the trade off is either remove a coach car during peak season, which offsets the revenue gains, or remove a coach diner. But with the latter choice, the remaining food service cars then wouldn’t have the capacity to serve a full train. So, you drop the coach meals, save a bunch of costs in the process, and still benefit from the added sleeper revenue.
> 
> The other explanation I’ve heard is that Richard Anderson is a three-headed demon-monster that feasts on the souls of sugar plum fairies.


I'm not sure we can disprove any of the above hypotheses...


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## dogbert617 (Nov 7, 2019)

Palmland said:


> From our travels this year, the Auto-Train was a far better experience than the SWC or Sunset.



Speaking of what you said there, and for a second to not think about the Auto Train, between the Southwest Chief and Sunset Limited which of those 2 trains did you prefer more? I'm possibly thinking about doing either some sort of Southwest Chief or Eagle/Sunset combination trip in January, but hadn't decided which of those 2 lines would be better. Also if I wanted to do an idea that was very ambitious as heck, I could do CONO south to New Orleans(and lol suffer through flex dining just for this train, though with the rest of my meals being traditional dining that wouldn't be terrible), Sunset west to San Antonio, and then Texas Eagle north and do some sort of brief stop north of there(Austin? Fort Worth? Dallas? Little Rock?), then head back to Chicago.

Thanks for answering my question between the Chief and Sunset, which you preferred more. I perhaps may not do that more ambitious idea in the end, but you never know?


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## Palmland (Nov 7, 2019)

Dogbert, I don’t think we saw a real difference between the two trains. Similar equipment, good crews, mediocre food on both trains. The difference is in the route itself and the on time performance.

Most of our travels were in the west and I give a slight edge to the SWC for its route over Raton pass and improved odds of on time performance with BNSF double track. We also enjoyed the sunset in west Texas and the rugged landscape of the southwest. The Sunset for us was a disaster operating over 5 hours late east of San Antonio and the scenery in that part of the trip was unremarkable.

You have good idea of a circle trip and it’s unfortunate you can’t do it in the west without going to the coast. Maybe some day we’ll see a train from KC to Dallas/Ft Worth or a SWC connection to Denver.


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