# where to send complaint letter



## latteman

:angry:

can anyone here give me contact name or person to send letter about what happen on our trip south on Coast starlight #11 out of seattle Dec 28th.

there are lot of unhappy folks for them to cancel and terminate the service at sacramanto. This was my first and my two kids trip on amtrak.

thanks

latteman


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## jccollins

You should first call Amtrak at 800-USA-RAIL and ask to speak to a person in the customer relations department. They will attentively listen, document your specific complaints and most likely offer to issue you a voucher that can be applied toward a future Amtrak trip. Then put your complaints in writing and send them to:

Amtrak Customer Relations

60 Massachusetts Ave NE

Washington, DC 20002

I hope you found the Starbucks at the Sacramento Station and ordered a latte after all the comotion, latteman!


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## Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee

latteman said:


> there are lot of unhappy folks for them to cancel and terminate the service at sacramanto. This was my first and my two kids trip on amtrak.


If you would and you know why (or at least what they told you), please provide us a little more detail as to why they terminated the service at that point. They may have had good reason to do so such as an unforseen circumstance, etc.

In any sense, however, "collins" has provided you with the correct info as to what you should do. Good luck. OBS...


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## battalion51

A termination at SAC sounds like it had to be really extreme with maintenance being down at Oakland. Anyone know of a derailment or big grade crossing incident up that way recently?


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## Trogdor

Sacramento may have had to do with the connection to the San Joaquin to get folks down to Los Angeles.


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## AmtrakFan

Due to Mechanical Woes in Seattle the Train left 5 Hours late and had to be terminated due to other delays but it's was kind of dumb they didn't run it to Oakland.


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## jccollins

battalion51 said:


> Anyone know of a derailment or big grade crossing incident up that way recently?


There haven't been any derailments or grade crossing incidents but we have been experiencing severe weather conditions in Northern California and Northern Nevada over the past week. Perhaps mudslides, washouts, or other weather conditions played a factor in delaying the train enough to be terminated at the Sacramento station.

Sacramento's station is a larger facility with more Amtrak staff and station assistance available to reacommodate passengers than Oakland. While passengers can make a rail-rail connection between the Coast Starlight and San Joaquin trains at Martinez, Emeryville, or Oakland-Jack London Square (none of which are staffed near the levels of Sacramento) it would take additional time to travel down to those stations on the Starlight and then back over (east, then south) on the San Joaquins to go down the valley. This usually results in passengers having to take the next scheduled San Joaquin down the valley instead of an earlier one they could have caught via an Amtrak bus connection from Sacramento to Stockton. Considering these conditions, Sacramento is usually the most logical point to transfer passengers in these circumstances. Most likely the train deadheaded to the Oakland yard after the passengers exited at Sacramento.


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## battalion51

I guess that move would make sense then. I'm not gonna lie, I wouldn't say I'm exactly qualified on the physical characteristics or facilites out there. I'd definitely fail that logistics test. :lol:


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## latteman

jccollins thanks for the info... greatly appreciated..

well we are back from LA.

overall, i would still take trip on Amrtak with boys.

even with early termination, its the experience that is worth every money... just wished we could have finished our complete trip to LA...

we have met some real nice folks on the trip down to LA.

we gain new friends. I still recommend the train trips to all my friends. But not during winter months..

well wish me luck with amtrak in getting some voucher for future trip...

oh, reason was that train was so behind in schedule they needed to turn the train around get it back on schedule.

happy new years to all..

latteman

ps.. i wish i knew there was starbucks next to station, but we didnt even have time( behind schedule with connection)


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## veririaa

I know there were *mudslides* on the 25th that had just happened that day when we left Portland on the Empire Builder. Perhaps service hadn't be restored yet on the 28th? Apparently, my train was the ONLY train that would operating that day at least (25th).

It sucked having to work on Christmas. XD Christmas at a hotel in Portland, how fun can it get? LOL


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## AmtrakFan

Yes that is the case veririaa but Portland Service was restored the next day.


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## veririaa

Aww I'm sorry then. Can't say I didn't try though XD


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## Guest

I will be sending my complaints tomorrow. On a trip to visit, my 88 year old mother and 86 year old aunt boarded a train and were told there were no seats even though they had a reservation. They stood for 4 stops before they reached a station where another car was added. It is unacceptable to expect people to stand for extended periods of time on Amtrak.

On the return today, when the train arrived they were told that there were limited seats and only upstairs. There were dozens of folks including many college students with multiple bags and suitcases boarding the train so I helped my Mom carry her bag upstairs as she was overrun by teens grabbing chairs. Crowded stair cases and I got back down to get off just as the doors were closing. Rather than lose a hand in the door while it closed, I ask the Amtrak employee to open the doors. He said no and walked away, stranding me on the train. I followed and asked, "Sir, I need to get off the train can you open the door". He said no and again walked away providing me with no information. We sat at the station with doors closed for several minutes before the train left. So I rode the train to the next stop, got off and bought a ticket back to the station. The return 15 minute trip also included a porter who was rude and sarcastic -- south end of a northern facing horse. WTH is up with these people?

There was NO WAY IN HELL, my Mom could have carried her bag upstairs in that crowd and then found a seat. My aunt was in a similar situation. It's spring break in california and the trains are packed. Not enough cars, short stops, RUDE employees. Never again.


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## AlanB

Guest said:


> I will be sending my complaints tomorrow. On a trip to visit, my 88 year old mother and 86 year old aunt boarded a train and were told there were no seats even though they had a reservation. They stood for 4 stops before they reached a station where another car was added. It is unacceptable to expect people to stand for extended periods of time on Amtrak.


Most trains in California are unreserved trains, meaning that you are not guaranteed a seat and can end up standing if too many people by tickets for said train. Having a reservation doesn't guarantee a seat on an unreserved train.

Note: Most Amtrak trains are reserved and you are guaranteed a seat. In California, the State helps to subsidize the trains and it is their decision to run these trains as unreserved trains; not Amtrak's decision.


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## MisterRick

IMHO the best way to contact Amtrak's customer service department is through their headquarters in Washington, D.C. @ *(202) 906-3000*.

Rick


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## daveyb99

latteman said:


> :angry:
> can anyone here give me contact name or person to send letter about what happen on our trip south on Coast starlight #11 out of seattle Dec 28th.



*DECEMBER 28 ????????????*

I think your window of opportunity has vanished, angry or not.

SO, to summarize: your train was so late AMTRAK canceled the ongoing journey, but got you where you needed to go.

Sorry, you might be angry about not getting the train ride all the way, but you did get there.

And exactly what "compensation" were you looking for. I would expect AMTRAK to give none. Honestly.


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## daveyb99

Guest said:


> I will be sending my complaints tomorrow. On a trip to visit, my 88 year old mother and 86 year old aunt boarded a train and were told there were no seats ... ...


I think we've been had on this one, because if I got stuck on train for 15 minutes with my 88 year old mother and 86 year old aunt, I sure would have spent my time finding them a seat rather than letting them stand there --- not complaining about getting stuck onboard or some "porter".

Sorry.


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## PRR 60

daveyb99 said:


> latteman said:
> 
> 
> 
> :angry:
> can anyone here give me contact name or person to send letter about what happen on our trip south on Coast starlight #11 out of seattle Dec 28th.
> 
> 
> 
> DECEMBER 28 ????????????
> 
> I think your window of opportunity has vanished, angry or not.
> 
> SO, to summarize: your train was so late AMTRAK canceled the ongoing journey, but got you where you needed to go.
> 
> Sorry, you might be angry about not getting the train ride all the way, but you did get there.
> 
> And exactly what "compensation" were you looking for. I would expect AMTRAK to give none. Honestly.
Click to expand...

I think you are mixing up two different complaints in the same thread. Concerning the December 28 incident, the OP said he filed his complaint with Amtrak on January 2. The complaint about seating, crowding, and missing the stop was posted yesterday by a different person.


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## Ispolkom

PRR 60 said:


> I think you are mixing up two different complaints in the same thread. Concerning the December 28 incident, the OP said he filed his complaint with Amtrak on January 2. The complaint about seating, crowding, and missing the stop was posted yesterday by a different person.


January 2, *2006*


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## DivMiler

Guest said:


> I will be sending my complaints tomorrow. On a trip to visit, my 88 year old mother and 86 year old aunt boarded a train and were told there were no seats ... ...





daveyb99 said:


> I think we've been had on this one, because if I got stuck on train for 15 minutes with my 88 year old mother and 86 year old aunt, I sure would have spent my time finding them a seat rather than letting them stand there --- not complaining about getting stuck onboard or some "porter".Sorry.


*daveyb99*,

This isn't your day (first the mixup with the 4-year-old post and the recent posts) :blink: . Second, not reading carefully the post from "Guest". "Guest" didn't say that his/her mother and aunt couldn't get a seat on their return trip, just on the originating trip. "Guest" put their luggage in an upstairs area, while they (presumably) found seats upstairs. "Guest" said that s/he didn't think the mother and aunt could get seats _and_ stow luggage.

A couple of other comments:

(1) If the post is true, I would think a good attendant and/or conductor would have made some college kids stand for two octogenarians. I'm sorry that (evidently) didn't happen.

(2) I wonder if we should require all posters to register. It seems to me that a good number of "Guest" posters are here to complain, with good reason or not. (I recognize that many "Guests" post a question asking about some aspect of train travel, and not to complain. However, if they registered, it would make it easier for somebody to email a response if desired, as well as to track postings).


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## PRR 60

Ispolkom said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are mixing up two different complaints in the same thread. Concerning the December 28 incident, the OP said he filed his complaint with Amtrak on January 2. The complaint about seating, crowding, and missing the stop was posted yesterday by a different person.
> 
> 
> 
> January 2, *2006*
Click to expand...

Yikes! I did not even think of the year.


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## jmbgeg

latteman said:


> :angry:
> can anyone here give me contact name or person to send letter about what happen on our trip south on Coast starlight #11 out of seattle Dec 28th.
> 
> there are lot of unhappy folks for them to cancel and terminate the service at sacramanto. This was my first and my two kids trip on amtrak.
> 
> thanks
> 
> latteman


I have found that if I am looking for quid pro quo (e.g. a voucher or compensatory AGR points) I get a lot better response from talking to Customer Relations live than with e-mail or letters.


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## RRrich

jmbgeg said:


> latteman said:
> 
> 
> 
> :angry:
> can anyone here give me contact name or person to send letter about what happen on our trip south on Coast starlight #11 out of seattle Dec 28th.
> 
> there are lot of unhappy folks for them to cancel and terminate the service at sacramanto. This was my first and my two kids trip on amtrak.
> 
> thanks
> 
> latteman
> 
> 
> 
> I have found that if I am looking for quid pro quo (e.g. a voucher or compensatory AGR points) I get a lot better response from talking to Customer Relations live than with e-mail or letters.
Click to expand...


I have found that if I am looking for quid pro quo (e.g. a voucher or compensatory AGR points) I get a lot better response by informing them of the problem within the same year or so.


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## jmbgeg

RRrich said:


> jmbgeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> latteman said:
> 
> 
> 
> :angry:
> can anyone here give me contact name or person to send letter about what happen on our trip south on Coast starlight #11 out of seattle Dec 28th.
> 
> there are lot of unhappy folks for them to cancel and terminate the service at sacramanto. This was my first and my two kids trip on amtrak.
> 
> thanks
> 
> latteman
> 
> 
> 
> I have found that if I am looking for quid pro quo (e.g. a voucher or compensatory AGR points) I get a lot better response from talking to Customer Relations live than with e-mail or letters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have found that if I am looking for quid pro quo (e.g. a voucher or compensatory AGR points) I get a lot better response by informing them of the problem within the same year or so.
Click to expand...

No doubt. Often they need to verify your story and it is made more dificult with the passage of time.


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## sunchaser

I've noticed that this pops up occasionally. I'm trying to do better about checking the dates, reading & rereading posts to avoid confusion. 

Moderators, is there a way to close the old threads without too much trouble?

Just wondering.


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## AlanB

sunchaser said:


> Moderators, is there a way to close the old threads without too much trouble?Just wondering.


Sadly, no.

Even if there were however, that's not always desirable. There are times like this where there was some confusion caused by the guest making their post in such an old topic, instead of starting a new one. However, there are also times where it can be helpful to bring back an old topic.

Of course if one uses the "new post" function, that is to click on that little orange square next to the topic title, then any confusion should be minimized as you'd have to roll back up to see the old posts.


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## Sue in KY

AlanB said:


> Of course if one uses the "new post" function, that is to click on that little orange square next to the topic title, then any confusion should be minimized as you'd have to roll back up to see the old posts.


Well, I'll be! I'm into my second year here, and I just learned there's more to that little orange square than just to tell you the topic has new posts in it!

Thanks, Alan!


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## Trainmans daughter

To the "guest" that posted yesterday regarding a recent problem (Post #13), I wish there was a way to send comlaint letters to the parents of all the jerk college kids that treated your mom and aunt so rudely. That is totally unexcusable and I'm really angry!


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## sunchaser

AlanB said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moderators, is there a way to close the old threads without too much trouble?Just wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, no.
> 
> Even if there were however, that's not always desirable. There are times like this where there was some confusion caused by the guest making their post in such an old topic, instead of starting a new one. However, there are also times where it can be helpful to bring back an old topic.
> 
> Of course if one uses the "new post" function, that is to click on that little orange square next to the topic title, then any confusion should be minimized as you'd have to roll back up to see the old posts.
Click to expand...

Oh, thank you, Alan-I did not know about that function! I will try to remember to use that!


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## amtrakwolverine

some forums the threads automaticly close after a time like 90 days of no posts or if the thread is over 90 days you have to check a box that says you understand the thread is X days or months old but you still want to post.


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## TVRM610

Trainmans daughter said:


> To the "guest" that posted yesterday regarding a recent problem (Post #13), I wish there was a way to send comlaint letters to the parents of all the jerk college kids that treated your mom and aunt so rudely. That is totally unexcusable and I'm really angry!


What exactly did these "jerk" college kids do? They sat down on a train that they had tickets for. I'm not in college, and admittedly had no idea it was spring break in California (imagine my surprise) when I boarded a Pacific Surfliner couple weeks ago. Yes it was standing room only, that's what "Unreserved" on your ticket stands for. I personally was amazed at the level of professionalism from the Conductors.. we must have had a different crew. I did notice that at every stop the Conductor would announce "You must have an Amtrak ticket to board this train, no visitors please."

The fact that someone thought they would be able to board a Surfliner train mid-route and be able to go up the stairs, help someone with luggage, and then back down the stairs means this person obviously has no clue how the Surfliner trains run... I wouldn't attempt that on a LD train... let alone for a regional service.


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## Trainmans daughter

I was responding to the first paragraph of the post that says these college students sat while two elderly women stood through 4 stops! Yes, these jerks had a perfect right to sit in seats that they had tickets for. However, the 88 and 86 year old women also had tickets. I just find it hard to believe that not one of those kids had the courtesy to give up their seat to an elderly woman!


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## TVRM610

Trainmans daughter said:


> I was responding to the first paragraph of the post that says these college students sat while two elderly women stood through 4 stops! Yes, these jerks had a perfect right to sit in seats that they had tickets for. However, the 88 and 86 year old women also had tickets. I just find it hard to believe that not one of those kids had the courtesy to give up their seat to an elderly woman!


Well then count me as a jerk as well... there was a lady with kids standing in the aisle next to me (the kids were old enough to stand on their own... she wasnt holding them.. and her husband was with her). I didn't offer her my seat. Of course.. the Conductors on my train were announcing that the train was standing room only, and if passenger boarding the train required a seat then they should wait for the next train (about an hour behind us).

Sitting in a seat that you paid for should not be counted as rude...

Oh by the way.. doesn't purchasing a Business class ticket guarantee you a seat on the Surfliners?


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## DivMiler

Trainmans daughter said:


> I was responding to the first paragraph of the post that says these college students sat while two elderly women stood through 4 stops! Yes, these jerks had a perfect right to sit in seats that they had tickets for. However, the 88 and 86 year old women also had tickets. I just find it hard to believe that not one of those kids had the courtesy to give up their seat to an elderly woman!





TVRM610 said:


> Well then count me as a jerk as well... there was a lady with kids standing in the aisle next to me (the kids were old enough to stand on their own... she wasnt holding them.. and her husband was with her). I didn't offer her my seat. Of course.. the Conductors on my train were announcing that the train was standing room only, and if passenger boarding the train required a seat then they should wait for the next train (about an hour behind us).


It seems to me that *TVRM610* is purposely ignoring the age of the two passengers. The lady with kids you mention was likely young enough to stand. I can only hope that when TVRM610 is in his eighties, he (and, somehow, I think it likely it _is_ a he), will not mind standing in _any_ situation, train or not, when youngsters who have paid for their seats ignore him standing there.

*Trainmans daughter* used the right word: courtesy.


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## AAARGH!

DivMiler said:


> *Trainmans daughter* used the right word: courtesy.


I would also add:

Being considerate

Being civil

Being a good human being

Being unselfish

Being a mench (GML and some others should know what that means)

Being *good*

[Rant]

I could not conceive of anyone justifying not giving up their seats to these two ladies unless they were unable to stand themselves. There is no excuse.

[/Rant]


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## MrFSS

AAARGH! said:


> DivMiler said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Trainmans daughter* used the right word: courtesy.
> 
> 
> 
> I would also add:
> 
> Being considerate
> 
> Being civil
> 
> Being a good human being
> 
> Being unselfish
> 
> Being a mench (GML and some others should know what that means)
> 
> Being *good*
> 
> [Rant]
> 
> I could not conceive of anyone justifying not giving up their seats to these two ladies unless they were unable to stand themselves. There is no excuse.
> 
> [/Rant]
Click to expand...

While I don't disagree with you, this whole story from the beginning has not been verified other than one guest saying what happened. We simply don't know the other side. How many times have we had one side of the story on the forums and come to many different conclusions without knowing the other side?

I'm not saying it didn't happen as posted, I'm saying it would be nice if we had both sides of the story, especially about the crew.

BlueJeanGirl - where are you when we need you??


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## RRrich

MrFSS said:


> While I don't disagree with you, this whole story from the beginning has not been verified other than one guest saying what happened. We simply don't know the other side. How many times have we had one side of the story on the forums and come to many different conclusions without knowing the other side?


Typically I agree about two sides to every story, but the idea that some college age folks sat while two women in their 80s stood bothers me.

Wifey and I are Seniors and Wifey is "mobility impaired" uses a cane and often we travel in the H-room. If she had to stand while youngsters sat I would try to make the kids uncomfortable with loud talk of rude, unmannerly children who shame their parents with their selfish actions.


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## sunchaser

I think it shows terrible manners if you don't at least offer a seat to anyone, such as:

A woman or young lady, even if a husband is present

Any man or woman that would be old enough to be your Parent or Grandparent, Uncle or Aunt

Anyone that clearly should be sitting-disabled or even children

I would hate to see someone older, disabled, or a small child injured because of a sudden stop & when they could have been sitting.

I'm also one of those nut jobs that opens doors for people, assist carrying when I can, & let them go ahead of me in the shopping line when they just have a couple of items.

We taught our kids & grandkids the same stuff.

But there are plenty of others that do not bother.

When they get old, & they most certainly will, maybe they will think back about what they did when someone ignores them.

PS I'm a woman, not a man, it goes for both sexes!


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## Ryan

RRrich said:


> If she had to stand while youngsters sat I would try to make the kids uncomfortable with loud talk of rude, unmannerly children who shame their parents with their selfish actions.


Or you could simply ask someone to vacate their seat rather than shame your parents by having to be all rude about it. As someone squarely in the middle between college and seniordom, if I were to not notice someone in need of a seat right away, I'd certainly vacate the seat if asked. But if you're going to stand there and talk loudly about how rude I am, I'd enjoy my ride from my seat. You catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar.


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## TVRM610

DivMiler said:


> Trainmans daughter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was responding to the first paragraph of the post that says these college students sat while two elderly women stood through 4 stops! Yes, these jerks had a perfect right to sit in seats that they had tickets for. However, the 88 and 86 year old women also had tickets. I just find it hard to believe that not one of those kids had the courtesy to give up their seat to an elderly woman!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well then count me as a jerk as well... there was a lady with kids standing in the aisle next to me (the kids were old enough to stand on their own... she wasnt holding them.. and her husband was with her). I didn't offer her my seat. Of course.. the Conductors on my train were announcing that the train was standing room only, and if passenger boarding the train required a seat then they should wait for the next train (about an hour behind us).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It seems to me that *TVRM610* is purposely ignoring the age of the two passengers. The lady with kids you mention was likely young enough to stand. I can only hope that when TVRM610 is in his eighties, he (and, somehow, I think it likely it _is_ a he), will not mind standing in _any_ situation, train or not, when youngsters who have paid for their seats ignore him standing there.
> 
> *Trainmans daughter* used the right word: courtesy.
Click to expand...

I'm not purposely ignoring the age of any passengers... I will say that I acknowledge that the passengers were reported to be in their eighties. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by saying that it is likely that I am a he.. but yes I am a man.

I never said it would not be "courteous" to offer an elder a seat on a standing room only train... but I don't think that means a college student should be counted as a "jerk" for not. Also.. who was there to say that these 80 year old ladies were not standing around several other 80 year old ladies? The fact that there were lots of college kids on the train does not automatically mean that the two 80+ year old ladies (notice how I am acknowledging there age!) were standing in the middle of a group of college kids.


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## MrFSS

RRrich said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I don't disagree with you, this whole story from the beginning has not been verified other than one guest saying what happened. We simply don't know the other side. How many times have we had one side of the story on the forums and come to many different conclusions without knowing the other side?
> 
> 
> 
> Typically I agree about two sides to every story, but the idea that some college age folks sat while two women in their 80s stood bothers me.
Click to expand...

That's exactly my point - we don't know for sure, other than what one person, who is mad at Amtrak, didn't even understand the difference between reserved and un-reserved, says about it. We need the other side of the story. I personally don't believe it happened 100% the way we were told it happened, if indeed it even happened.


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## AAARGH!

TVRM610 said:


> I never said it would not be "courteous" to offer an elder a seat on a standing room only train... but I don't think that means a college student should be counted as a "jerk" for not.


I certainly do.



TVRM610 said:


> Also.. who was there to say that these 80 year old ladies were not standing around several other 80 year old ladies? The fact that there were lots of college kids on the train does not automatically mean that the two 80+ year old ladies (notice how I am acknowledging there age!) were standing in the middle of a group of college kids.


Based on the OPs description, I think it is unlikely (though certainly possible) that there was a group of 80+ year old ladies. As MrFSS said, we don't know for sure.


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## sunchaser

AAARGH! said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it would not be "courteous" to offer an elder a seat on a standing room only train... but I don't think that means a college student should be counted as a "jerk" for not.
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly do.
> 
> 
> 
> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also.. who was there to say that these 80 year old ladies were not standing around several other 80 year old ladies? The fact that there were lots of college kids on the train does not automatically mean that the two 80+ year old ladies (notice how I am acknowledging there age!) were standing in the middle of a group of college kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Based on the OPs description, I think it is unlikely (though certainly possible) that there was a group of 80+ year old ladies. As MrFSS said, we don't know for sure.
Click to expand...

Does it really matter how many elderly Ladies were standing when they should be sitting?

They also paid for a seat, didn't they?

My mother is in her eighties, & I certainly would not allow her to stand if I was there.

I would ask someone to allow her to sit, if I had no seat to give her.

I would do the same for a stranger.

I would hope whatever someone's age, they would be considerate of those around them.

Anyone can show by example how to treat those around us with respect & yes courtesy.


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## AlanB

TVRM610 said:


> Oh by the way.. doesn't purchasing a Business class ticket guarantee you a seat on the Surfliners?


Yes it does.


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## TVRM610

AlanB said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh by the way.. doesn't purchasing a Business class ticket guarantee you a seat on the Surfliners?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it does.
Click to expand...

Good to know...

second question, and even more to the point, isn't the lower level reserved for passengers who can not easily climb the stairs? It seems to me if there were college students (who had no disabilities) taking up the Lower Level seats... THAT would be a cause for complain. By climbing the stairs in the first place, you already have proved that you have decent mobility (I really do not mean that in a bad way, I'm just saying that as a fact, if you can climb the stairs of the surfliner cars, then your obviously not completely disabled).

I will say that perhaps the Conductors on the OP's train should have enforced the lower level seating a bit better, but I really have a hard time putting any blame on a passenger (young healthy college student or not) for sitting in a seat that they payed for. (I'm referring to the upper level seats, not the lower level seats if in fact they are marked for handicap/elderly passengers, which I think they are.)


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## battalion51

IIRC the lower level seats are supposed to have preference for the mobility impaired. So if there's no demand for the seat you are free to use it, but if there is someone who has limited mobility you're supposed to give it up on request. Same principle as the seats near the doors on the Subway in New York. If it's rush hour and the old folks already have the blue plate special in front of them, it's all yours.


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## Green Maned Lion

sunchaser said:


> I think it shows terrible manners if you don't at least offer a seat to anyone, such as:A woman or young lady, even if a husband is present


Sunchaser, I would never offer my seat to somebody just because they were female. That's just silly. Being a woman does not defacto make it harder to stand, and I object to juxtaposing equality and gallantry, which is what you're talking about. I'm not saying there aren't areas where even in an equal society, women have to be given different considerations. But sitting versus standing on the train is not among them!

I'd offer my seat to somebody, unequivocally, if there was a solid reason why their need to sit was greater than mine. But not because the fall into a different, but irrelevant, class to mine.


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## sunchaser

Green Maned Lion said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it shows terrible manners if you don't at least offer a seat to anyone, such as:A woman or young lady, even if a husband is present
> 
> 
> 
> Sunchaser, I would never offer my seat to somebody just because they were female. That's just silly. Being a woman does not defacto make it harder to stand, and I object to juxtaposing equality and gallantry, which is what you're talking about. I'm not saying there aren't areas where even in an equal society, women have to be given different considerations. But sitting versus standing on the train is not among them!
> 
> I'd offer my seat to somebody, unequivocally, if there was a solid reason why their need to sit was greater than mine. But not because the fall into a different, but irrelevant, class to mine.
Click to expand...

I was not implying that as a woman it would be harder to stand, although, in some cases, that would be true.

I was saying it shows a lack of manners, & to me respect.

I also said that I let people go in front of me at the store.

I also would offer the seat to just about anybody, even you, & I know you are younger than me.

All of this fuss over a seat!


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## Chris J.

sunchaser said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it shows terrible manners if you don't at least offer a seat to anyone, such as:A woman or young lady, even if a husband is present
> 
> 
> 
> Sunchaser, I would never offer my seat to somebody just because they were female. That's just silly. Being a woman does not defacto make it harder to stand, and I object to juxtaposing equality and gallantry, which is what you're talking about. I'm not saying there aren't areas where even in an equal society, women have to be given different considerations. But sitting versus standing on the train is not among them!
> 
> I'd offer my seat to somebody, unequivocally, if there was a solid reason why their need to sit was greater than mine. But not because the fall into a different, but irrelevant, class to mine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was not implying that as a woman it would be harder to stand, although, in some cases, that would be true.
> 
> I was saying it shows a lack of manners, & to me respect.
> 
> I also said that I let people go in front of me at the store.
> 
> I also would offer the seat to just about anybody, even you, & I know you are younger than me.
> 
> All of this fuss over a seat!
Click to expand...

If we all did that we'd all be standing around empty seats - "please, take my seat" "no you sit in it" "no; i insist; YOU sit" "I'm fine standing" ..... and so on.

I don't see how sitting in a seat just because other people with no greater need are standing it is bad mannered. Barging through the car to get to the last free seat, not offering it to someone who is clearly in need, putting all your bags and coats on the seat next to you to try and stop other people sitting there.. that's a different matter.


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## sunchaser

Chris J. said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it shows terrible manners if you don't at least offer a seat to anyone, such as:A woman or young lady, even if a husband is present
> 
> 
> 
> Sunchaser, I would never offer my seat to somebody just because they were female. That's just silly. Being a woman does not defacto make it harder to stand, and I object to juxtaposing equality and gallantry, which is what you're talking about. I'm not saying there aren't areas where even in an equal society, women have to be given different considerations. But sitting versus standing on the train is not among them!
> 
> I'd offer my seat to somebody, unequivocally, if there was a solid reason why their need to sit was greater than mine. But not because the fall into a different, but irrelevant, class to mine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was not implying that as a woman it would be harder to stand, although, in some cases, that would be true.
> 
> I was saying it shows a lack of manners, & to me respect.
> 
> I also said that I let people go in front of me at the store.
> 
> I also would offer the seat to just about anybody, even you, & I know you are younger than me.
> 
> All of this fuss over a seat!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If we all did that we'd all be standing around empty seats - "please, take my seat" "no you sit in it" "no; i insist; YOU sit" "I'm fine standing" ..... and so on.
> 
> I don't see how sitting in a seat just because other people with no greater need are standing it is bad mannered. Barging through the car to get to the last free seat, not offering it to someone who is clearly in need, putting all your bags and coats on the seat next to you to try and stop other people sitting there.. that's a different matter.
Click to expand...

I doubt if you would have any empty seats.

Boy, it's amazing what kind of reaction I get for saying offer your seat to a woman. Would you not offer your seat to a girlfriend? What about your mother? A sister? Grandmother? Aunt? They are all women.

Putting the shoe on the other foot-how about your father, brother, grandfather, uncle?

I was referring to the poster who did not offer is seat to a woman with children, that were old enough to stand on their own, with the husband present.

As I said before, I would rather have children & women seated in case of sudden stops for safety.

So is it good manners to choose to ignore those around them unless it is obvious that someone 'has a need' to sit?

By just looking at someone, you can tell if they need to sit? What about those whose need may not be obvious?

I was talking about safety & courtesy, but it does not surprise me that people do not offer their seats to others, &

I do not expect someone to offer me a seat either.

I am surprised that this attitude is present here on this board!


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## chandj

I got on a train recently with baby in arms. No seats were empty but two gentlemen--one elderly, the other a teenager--jumped up to offer seating for me. It's not their fault that I chose to take a baby on a crowded train, and I was perfectly able to stand, but it sure was nice. I don't go around expecting to get a seat because I am a woman or a mother, but I love knowing that such consideration exists. Makes for a kinder, gentler world! BTW, I have often seen women vacate seats on buses and trains for someone less able-bodied.


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## Trainmans daughter

It's kind of discouraging, isn't it Sunchaser? Although chivalry is not dead, it may be on life support. Common courtesy is not so common. I too, am surprised at the attitude of several posters here. I guess I expected too much.

However, I will continue to offer my seat to anyone standing (since not all disabilities are obvious), and I will continue to hold doors open for others, and I will continue to let people go ahead of me in the supermarket line if they have fewer items than I. Respecting others makes me respect myself more.


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## Bob Dylan

Trainmans daughter said:


> It's kind of discouraging, isn't it Sunchaser? Although chivalry is not dead, it may be on life support. Common courtesy is not so common. I too, am surprised at the attitude of several posters here. I guess I expected too much.
> However, I will continue to offer my seat to anyone standing (since not all disabilities are obvious), and I will continue to hold doors open for others, and I will continue to let people go ahead of me in the supermarket line if they have fewer items than I. Respecting others makes me respect myself more.


Excellent philosophy to live by! Ive been around for awhile, still like the quote about youth being wasted on the young even if it's not clear who actually said it first! Courtesy is always appropriate, someday the Im gonna live forever crowd will get old and wonder about todays youth going to hell in a hand basket! Keep on keepin on, you can have my seat anyday if were on a crowded train!


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## Green Maned Lion

Excuse my bluntness, but either women are equal or they aren't. If they are, then there is no reason to offer an otherwise comparable person (say, alone, mid-20s, reasonably healthy, and capable of safely standing on a moving train) just because they happen to have different hormones and sexual organs than myself. I can come of with dozens of reasons why I'd give up my seat to someone, including the simple one that I happen to be a lot more capable than most of balancing and anticipating unusual motion on a train, and thus are safer standing than someone who is on their first trip.

To a mother with children, I'd offer a seat. To an older woman clearly in greater need than me of a seat, I'd offer a seat.

To my own girlfriend? Likely I'd sit. Why? Because we are otherwise comparable, except I happen to have a bad back, bad ankles, and a bum leg.

Chivalry died when various women went marching in demonstration asking for it, and numerous other discriminatory practices, to be removed in favor of equality. Oh, yes, discriminatory.

Discrimination, dis-crim-i-na-tion |disˌkriməˈnā sh ən|, Noun, first definition: Varying treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex

Discrimination does not imply negativity. It is discrimination to treat one group of people better OR worse than another.

I don't object to equality under any circumstances. What I object to is a definition that seems to imply that women should be equal via the loss of inequitable practices they consider negative, whilst retaining inequitable practices they consider positive.

I don't mean to offend, although, as always, I don't make any particular effort to avoid it.

Oh, by the way, to quote Abraham Lincoln, "This reminds me of a story." Some time a few years back, when I was attending college, I was in one of my better moods, and upon entering the school Library, a female student was approaching the front entrance from within carrying what appeared to me to be both a heavy school bag and several heavy reference books. Having been in the, uh, _fun_ situation of attempting to open the heavy doors while carrying similarly cumbersome and heavy loads, I held open the door and stood aside for the girl to pass.

It was easy for me to do, it seemed to me the girl, or more accurately, person, needed the help. So I did it. And forever to this day consider it one of the funniest things to ever happen to me. Because she promptly started screaming at me for being a male chauvinist pig who thinks that a woman can't open the door for herself ("Lady," I thought, "I am a lot larger and stronger than you, and I have trouble doing it!"). In response to this clear request to retract my offer of help, I let go of the door as she, for reasons unclear to me, continued to proceed to go through it. I had figured she'd wait for it to close and then make a statement by opening the blasted thing herself and marching through it.

At which point, a gust of wind blew the heavy door into her face, causing her to stumble backwards and fall on her posterior. Several people, male and female, standing around and watching because they had been startled by her literal screaching, started laughing their heads off. Her face turned red and she started blowing off even more steam.

I, feeling bad about what happened (I, contrary to common belief, do not enjoy hurting people- at least unintentionally), attempted to offer her a hand getting up and collecting her stuff. Whereupon, she promptly started screaming "SEXUAL HARASSMENT!"

Finally, her roommate or friend or partner, or whatever their relationship was, came over, told her, in less kind language, to be quiet in a fashion somehow related to sexual actions, that she was making a huge fool of herself, that she managed to fit under two outdated categories of mental impairment, and that she apparently needed to receive a status of living. She got up, her friend gave her help with her things, and while carefully studying the pavement outside the entire time, walked away.

Honestly, with people like that, how can you expect us to be chivalrous even if we want to?


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## RRrich

Ah yes, I remember those days. Kind of funny in a way to be berated for opening a door but wonderful to see HER struggle with it.


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## TVRM610

Green Maned Lion said:


> Excuse my bluntness, but either women are equal or they aren't. If they are, then there is no reason to offer an otherwise comparable person (say, alone, mid-20s, reasonably healthy, and capable of safely standing on a moving train) just because they happen to have different hormones and sexual organs than myself. I can come of with dozens of reasons why I'd give up my seat to someone, including the simple one that I happen to be a lot more capable than most of balancing and anticipating unusual motion on a train, and thus are safer standing than someone who is on their first trip.


Thanks GML... I agree.


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## sunchaser

Green Maned Lion said:


> Excuse my bluntness, but either women are equal or they aren't. If they are, then there is no reason to offer an otherwise comparable person (say, alone, mid-20s, reasonably healthy, and capable of safely standing on a moving train) just because they happen to have different hormones and sexual organs than myself. I can come of with dozens of reasons why I'd give up my seat to someone, including the simple one that I happen to be a lot more capable than most of balancing and anticipating unusual motion on a train, and thus are safer standing than someone who is on their first trip.
> To a mother with children, I'd offer a seat. To an older woman clearly in greater need than me of a seat, I'd offer a seat.
> 
> To my own girlfriend? Likely I'd sit. Why? Because we are otherwise comparable, except I happen to have a bad back, bad ankles, and a bum leg.
> 
> Chivalry died when various women went marching in demonstration asking for it, and numerous other discriminatory practices, to be removed in favor of equality. Oh, yes, discriminatory.
> 
> Discrimination, dis-crim-i-na-tion |disˌkriməˈnā sh ən|, Noun, first definition: Varying treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex
> 
> Discrimination does not imply negativity. It is discrimination to treat one group of people better OR worse than another.
> 
> I don't object to equality under any circumstances. What I object to is a definition that seems to imply that women should be equal via the loss of inequitable practices they consider negative, whilst retaining inequitable practices they consider positive.
> 
> I don't mean to offend, although, as always, I don't make any particular effort to avoid it.
> 
> Oh, by the way, to quote Abraham Lincoln, "This reminds me of a story." Some time a few years back, when I was attending college, I was in one of my better moods, and upon entering the school Library, a female student was approaching the front entrance from within carrying what appeared to me to be both a heavy school bag and several heavy reference books. Having been in the, uh, _fun_ situation of attempting to open the heavy doors while carrying similarly cumbersome and heavy loads, I held open the door and stood aside for the girl to pass.
> 
> It was easy for me to do, it seemed to me the girl, or more accurately, person, needed the help. So I did it. And forever to this day consider it one of the funniest things to ever happen to me. Because she promptly started screaming at me for being a male chauvinist pig who thinks that a woman can't open the door for herself ("Lady," I thought, "I am a lot larger and stronger than you, and I have trouble doing it!"). In response to this clear request to retract my offer of help, I let go of the door as she, for reasons unclear to me, continued to proceed to go through it. I had figured she'd wait for it to close and then make a statement by opening the blasted thing herself and marching through it.
> 
> At which point, a gust of wind blew the heavy door into her face, causing her to stumble backwards and fall on her posterior. Several people, male and female, standing around and watching because they had been startled by her literal screaching, started laughing their heads off. Her face turned red and she started blowing off even more steam.
> 
> I, feeling bad about what happened (I, contrary to common belief, do not enjoy hurting people- at least unintentionally), attempted to offer her a hand getting up and collecting her stuff. Whereupon, she promptly started screaming "SEXUAL HARASSMENT!"
> 
> Finally, her roommate or friend or partner, or whatever their relationship was, came over, told her, in less kind language, to be quiet in a fashion somehow related to sexual actions, that she was making a huge fool of herself, that she managed to fit under two outdated categories of mental impairment, and that she apparently needed to receive a status of living. She got up, her friend gave her help with her things, and while carefully studying the pavement outside the entire time, walked away.
> 
> Honestly, with people like that, how can you expect us to be chivalrous even if we want to?


GML,

I know you are trying really hard to be pleasant, & I appreciate that.

As I said before, I would offer a seat to anyone. I remember that you have some physical things that would mean it would be better for you to sit.

I would most certainly offer you a seat, though even if I did not know that.

I also think that if you didn't have those problems you would probably be more likely to offer your seat.

I remember that time where women were demanding all sorts of things. I was not one of them. I do think that if I work the same job as someone else, I should be paid the same, based on my experience & training, not sex.

IMHO, I think all it gave women was more work & less appreciation because they were so angry, & many of them still are.

So maybe it's discriminatory to realize that a woman will be physically smaller & therefore more easily injured in case of a sudden stop? So I should not offer her a seat? (Except of course, those of us that have a 'greater need')

I know a few people that upon looking at them, you would not know that they are in fact dealing with injuries- knee pain, back pain, neck pain, etc. These may only surface after pushing their physical limits for a while.

As for your college story, I'm not surprised. Sometimes you just can't win. There have been times when I have offered assistance to someone mobility impaired & they responded with anger. That does not make me not want to offer it to others.

GML, there are plenty of people out there that still appreciate the offer of assistance, or simple courtesy. There are others that don't. That's their problem, not yours. You & I cannot control the actions of others, but we can control our reaction to them.


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## Trainmans daughter

GML, you can have my seat anytime.


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## sunchaser

Trainmans daughter said:


> GML, you can have my seat anytime.


  You make me smile!


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## oldtimer

Trainmans daughter said:


> It's kind of discouraging, isn't it Sunchaser? Although chivalry is not dead, it may be on life support. Common courtesy is not so common. I too, am surprised at the attitude of several posters here. I guess I expected too much.
> However, I will continue to offer my seat to anyone standing (since not all disabilities are obvious), and I will continue to hold doors open for others, and I will continue to let people go ahead of me in the supermarket line if they have fewer items than I. Respecting others makes me respect myself more.


In the past I would travel for both jobs that I held at the time. The first one was as an employee of Amtrak and on my pass (of course my pleasure travel was on a pass, even if it meant that I would pay 80% of the full price on some days.) My second job even if it was closely related to the first I would always purchase a ticket, as it was for a labor union and the Dept of Labor has been keeping unions under their thumb. (Wish the government did the same for corporations, especially in the financial field.)

I suffer from more than one of those hidden disabilities and standing is one of my weak spots. If I were traveling on RR business or my pass I would gladly give up my seat as it is one of the restrictions of a pass if the train is crowded. If I knew the crew I was always offered a seat in their "office". When the seat was paid for I would also gladly offer it to an elderly passenger, a mother with child, and others with obvious physical challenges. Several times my seatmate would be shamed into offering their seat also. I have even had another young passengers offer their seat to me or in lieu of my changing seats offer their seat.

So thank you Trainmans daughter for the consideration of hidden disabilities I don't think I would take your offer (and suffer in silence), but hope that some young passenger would be inspired by your offer.


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## Cramer

It will probably be a long time, if ever, I ride Amtrak again. My wife and I had our first experience on Amtrak this week. No sleeper available and took coach to NM from E.Tex. Seats won't recline far enough to be comfortable for sleeping. Amtrak is at the mercy of freight trains. You wait on them if they're slow or broken down. Some of the employees are rude or otherwise just uncaring. All this is to be expected I guess but overall was the experience coming back that was over the top. A woman was traveling from Los Angeles to Littlerock Ark. with her kids and she would not control them. Loud and running up and down the aisle. One night till two O'clock in the morning. So much for the Amtrak experience...next time I'll drive.


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## MrFSS

Cramer said:


> It will probably be a long time, if ever, I ride Amtrak again. My wife and I had our first experience on Amtrak this week. No sleeper available and took coach to NM from E.Tex. Seats won't recline far enough to be comfortable for sleeping. Amtrak is at the mercy of freight trains. You wait on them if they're slow or broken down. Some of the employees are rude or otherwise just uncaring. All this is to be expected I guess but overall was the experience coming back that was over the top. A woman was traveling from Los Angeles to Little rock Ark. with her kids and she would not control them. Loud and running up and down the aisle. One night till two O'clock in the morning. So much for the Amtrak experience...next time I'll drive.


Hope you have written to Amtrak or called them and told them all about the problems. They want to know these things.

Did you tell the conductor about the kids? Did anyone tell the conductor or car attendant? They need to know and if they were told and didn't do anything, then again, call Amtrak and tell them.


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## spacecadet

Cramer said:


> A woman was traveling from Los Angeles to Littlerock Ark. with her kids and she would not control them. Loud and running up and down the aisle. One night till two O'clock in the morning. So much for the Amtrak experience...next time I'll drive.


I'm sure this was no fun, but I don't really know how you can blame Amtrak for this. Blame the mother.

I flew to Japan last month, as I often do these days. This is a 14 hour flight. On the inbound leg, we had a screaming baby next to us for the entire flight. Not just crying, screaming. The parents seemed like they knew it was bothersome to other people but had basically thrown up their hands and said "there's nothing we can do about it". The flight attendants did their best, offering toys, food and other things, but this child just would not be quiet. For 14 hours.

It happens. This is the nature of riding in a transportation vehicle with a lot of other people and no privacy. Really the only people you can blame at all are the parents for choosing to travel with their child during this phase of their life, although sometimes they have no choice either. It's too bad you couldn't get a bedroom, but you also can't blame Amtrak for there being more demand than supply for those.

You can still write a letter to Amtrak; see if they will do anything for you. I doubt it, though.


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## cramer

I overheard the woman's daughter talking on her phone saying that one of the passengers had told her brothers that they were going to be reported to the conducter. If they were it apparently didn't do any good. I'm not blaming Amtrak for the actions of these kids. I know it's the parents responsibility. I did talk to the conducter when we left the train. I just won't put myself in the position for this to happen again.


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## Guest

Try a sleeper next time. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.


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## caravanman

Hi,

Seems important to remember that Guest Cramer is not just upset about the noisy children, his outward trip was marred by freight train delays, and rude and uncaring Amtrak staff... Now, those items are so regularly featured on here that we need a "Room 101".. somewhere that bad things that 'aint going to change, can be hidden!

Eddie 

ps I wonder whether the OP did get a reply.. after all this topic started in 2005...?


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## TED JOHNSON

I took the Coastal Starlight on dec'1,2010,Even thur the train was an hour &half late,and actually caught fire south of el ka horn pass,and 2 hours late getting into LA,It was a great journey,met new friend's,On Dec 3,I took the Sw chief and the sleeper restroom on car 0430 went down,100%of my fellow passenger's all helped the attendant w/the probelm,and i met new friend's and Althur i read alot of compaints,I have NEVER encountered a huge set back while on Amtrak,Happy Holiday's everybody,Ted


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## amtrakwolverine

cramer said:


> I overheard the woman's daughter talking on her phone saying that one of the passengers had told her brothers that they were going to be reported to the conducter. If they were it apparently didn't do any good. I'm not blaming Amtrak for the actions of these kids. I know it's the parents responsibility. I did talk to the conducter when we left the train. I just won't put myself in the position for this to happen again.


Drive cross country then get stuck in gridlock find hotels and gas stations see how much you like that. If you fly your not going to get picture perfect service either not all flight attendants are happy,cheerful either from reading reports on here. have fun driving cross country. Freght traffic is not amtraks problem amtrak owns very little rail so they get stuck on the back burner while freight trains get the go ahead. mantnece problems are amtraks problem so is rude and uncaring staff. all you can do is take names and report the rude "I don't give a damn about my job" employees.


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## Deanna stockton

What dose everyone think please let me know I am a single mother of a two and a four year old boys and the amtrak kicked me and my boys off in the middle of down town Dallas because my two year old son has ADHD witch means he can't stay still well I tryed to explain that to them but they still did not care I had no money and no clue where I was never been to Texas in my life I had to call the police because I had no where to go they took me to a homeless shelter and on top of it all I payed for three seats but the lady only allowed me two please respond and let me know what u think I'm thinking of a law suit they put me and my kids life in danger


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## MrFSS

Deanna stockton said:


> What dose everyone think please let me know I am a single mother of a two and a four year old boys and the amtrak kicked me and my boys off in the middle of down town Dallas because my two year old son has ADHD witch means he can't stay still well I tryed to explain that to them but they still did not care I had no money and no clue where I was never been to Texas in my life I had to call the police because I had no where to go they took me to a homeless shelter and on top of it all I payed for three seats but the lady only allowed me two please respond and let me know what u think I'm thinking of a law suit they put me and my kids life in danger


Deanna - while we are sorry for your situation we ask that you understand this forum is in no way associated with, or part of, Amtrak.

There is nothing we can do for you other than to suggest you contact Amtrak directly and explain your situation. Their phone is: *1-800-872-7245*

You can also look at their contact page for further information, It is found *HERE*.

Thank you.


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