# Confused by booking system and availability Texas Eagle



## Emma (Aug 7, 2018)

Hi everyone

We will be visiting the US next August from Jersey (Channel Islands, not NYC), arriving in Chicago. My daughter will be attending Space Academy so we were looking to book the Texas Eagle from Chicago to St Louis.

I do not have exact travel dates as yet because flights are not yet available to book but it will be in August 2019. I wanted to get an idea of costs for travelling via Amtrak instead of an internal flight as we do not have trains in Jersey and thought it would be great experience.

To get an idea of costs I have put in dates in both June and July 2019 but am finding the following confusing:

There seems to be a train that departs at 1:45pm arriving at 7:21pm but there are two different numbers, 21 Eagle Texas and the 421 Eagle Texas (or 21 / 321). It must be the same train so what is the relevance of the two numbers? Why would there be value seats on the 321 but not the 21, and no Saver seats on anything despite how far in advance the booking?

Superliner Bedroom: The information states that these seat three but it only gives you the option to book two bedrooms. We only really want to book one as we all want to sit together and our daughter will only be 13. I can't book one person in coach as they will not be able to come into the lounge with us. Would I need to call to book this to allow three people into the superliner bedroom?

All sold out? I cannot find any availability for any family rooms on the Texas Eagle no matter when I pick a date. Do you have to book these the day they are released for sale or will it not allow me to book one as I have to book for three adults?

Thank you in advance for your patience with all these questions! Flights from Jersey to Chicago will be available soon and I want to make sure I am ready to go with our train bookings too when these seats become available.

Emma


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## Ryan (Aug 7, 2018)

You can book three in a bedroom, but you do have to call.

Between Chicago and St Louis, 21/421/321 are the same train. The reservation system treats them differently because of changes further down the line. For example, “Train 321” refers to the coach car that only runs between Chicago and St Louis.


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## the_traveler (Aug 7, 2018)

You mentioned a bedroom.

Since the trip from Chicago to St Louis is only a few hours, I would highly recommend coach. Unless you really want to see what a bedroom is like. I do not see a reason to pay 10-20 times as much!


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## PVD (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm confused. I thought Space Academy was in Huntsville, Alabama. Anyway, there are also a bunch of trains called "Lincoln Service" that go fom Chicago to St Louis, they have business class, and BC includes Chicago Metropolitan Lounge Access. If it was the lounge on the train you were referring to, that is open to anyone.


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## cpotisch (Aug 7, 2018)

Emma said:


> There seems to be a train that departs at 1:45pm arriving at 7:21pm but there are two different numbers, 21 Eagle Texas and the 421 Eagle Texas (or 21 / 321). It must be the same train so what is the relevance of the two numbers? Why would there be value seats on the 321 but not the 21, and no Saver seats on anything despite how far in advance the booking?
> 
> Superliner Bedroom: The information states that these seat three but it only gives you the option to book two bedrooms. We only really want to book one as we all want to sit together and our daughter will only be 13. I can't book one person in coach as they will not be able to come into the lounge with us. Would I need to call to book this to allow three people into the superliner bedroom?
> 
> All sold out? I cannot find any availability for any family rooms on the Texas Eagle no matter when I pick a date. Do you have to book these the day they are released for sale or will it not allow me to book one as I have to book for three adults?


Because of the limitations of the Amtrak booking system, it shows all of those train numbers, even though they are literally the exact same train. Train 321/322 refers to one coach car that operates exclusively between Chicago and St. Louis. Train 21/22 refers to the standard Texas Eagle which operates between Chicago and San Antonio. Train 421/422 refers to one sleeping car and one coach car that go all the way to Los Angeles. Put simply, three days a week, those two cars are transferred to another train (the Sunset Limited) in San Antonio, which continues on to Los Angeles. I'm not even going to get into the exact reason, but on the days that 421/422 run, train 21/22 exclusively offers roomettes (and coach). If you want a Bedroom, Accessible Bedroom, or Family Bedroom, you'll have to book 421/422, which is why it shows those rooms as sold out.

Beyond that, the numbers make absolutely no difference, so just pick whichever one is cheaper. Just make sure that it doesn't show you as "connecting" from one train to the other, since you'd have to change cars at that station.

Hope this makes sense!


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 7, 2018)

Nice Trip!

I agree that you should book one of the Lincoln Service Trains from Chicago-St.Louis in Business Class which,as was said, gives you access to the Metro Lounge in Chicagos Union Station.( It's usually cheaper than Coach on the #21/#421/#321 Texas,Eagle.

If price is a consideration, just ride in Coach for the Short Day trip.


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## cpotisch (Aug 7, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> You mentioned a bedroom.
> 
> Since the trip from Chicago to St Louis is only a few hours, I would highly recommend coach. Unless you really want to see what a bedroom is like. I do not see a reason to pay 10-20 times as much!


Yeah, a bedroom seems like serious overkill. Not to mention the fact that 21 doesn't offer bedrooms and 321 (by definition) doesn't offer sleepers altogether. Unless they really need a sleeper, coach (or BC in the Lincoln Service) makes way more sense.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 7, 2018)

The different train numbers are for inventory management on cut-off and through cars. 21 is the base train, Chicago-San Antonio. 421 are through cars to Los Angeles that continue via the Sunset Limited 3 days a week. 321 is the cut-off coach for St. Louis.

Physically, they are the same train.

I agree that a bedroom or a family bedroom is overkill Chicago-St. Louis. It is only about a 5 hour ride and none of it is overnight. If you MUST have a bedroom, you can book 3 in a bedroom but you have to call Amtrak to do it, the website doesn't do it. The website allows for only "recommended" capacity(2), not "maximum" capacity"(3).

The reason you can't book a bedroom on 21 is the that 21 carries a sleeper that only has roomettes (a "transition dormitory", aka "transdorm" that also serves partly as the crew dormitory). 421 has a full sleeper with all accommodation types (roomettes, bedrooms, family bedrooms), so you can only get a bedroom on the 3 days a week that the train has the 421 Los Angeles cars on it. Note that there is only ONE sleeper, so there entire inventory of accomodations other than roomettes are 5 bedrooms, 1 family bedroom, 1 accessible bedroom. The bedroom is going to tend to be quite expensive because of very low inventory.

I tend to agree with the recommendations to book Business Class on one of the Lincoln Service trains instead, particularly if you want lounge access.


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## cpotisch (Aug 7, 2018)

To clarify, the Texas Eagle always has one standard sleeping car and one trans-dorm. On the three days a week that the Sunset Limited operates, the sleeping car and one coach become train 421/422, and the trans-dorm and other coaches are train 21/22. Since trans-dorms only have roomettes, on the days that 421/422 is operating, 21/22 only offers roomettes (and coach), and you'd have to book 421/422 for the other accommodations. For the four days a week that 421/422 doesn't operate, 21/22 is the entire train, including that full sleeper, so it offers all accommodations. This is why the Family Bedroom, Bedroom, and Accessible Bedroom are "Sold out" on 21/22 when 421/422 are available.


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## PVD (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm still trying ti figure out how this ties in to Huntsville.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 7, 2018)

Googled it and there is a Space Academy in St. Louis. Go figure. Clearly isn't associated with Space Camp in Huntsville.


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## CAMISSY55 (Aug 7, 2018)

This is why I love this forum! While I have been traveling AMTRAK LD trains fairly regularly (CONO,CZ,EB,SWC,SL,and CS) for the past four years, I never understood fully about what the different TE train numbers meant. I have seen the different options during AMSNAG searches but didn't research any further. This thread will undoubtedly be of great help to the OP, as it was to me. Thanks!


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## ehbowen (Aug 7, 2018)

If you decide that you do want the bedroom for privacy and meals (you get dinner, although it may well be just a box dinner by that time), you can book up to four in a full bedroom for a day trip by requesting "seat (non-berth) service only" when you make your reservation. Please note that the bedroom upcharge is *per room*, not per person, so if you have several traveling and want to share it may be worth the extra expense for the experience, particularly if you haven't been on a similar train previously. As was previously noted you cannot make this reservation on line, you must telephone Amtrak and speak directly to a customer service representative. From outside of the USA, Amtrak's international desk is + 1-215-856-7952. Open Mon-Fri 08:30-16:00 Eastern Time.


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## cpotisch (Aug 7, 2018)

Since when can you fit five people in a Bedroom? That sounds like it would be misery.


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## Ryan (Aug 7, 2018)

As the edited post shows, it’s only 4.

You can pack 6 in a family room if enough of them are kids...


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## ehbowen (Aug 7, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Since when can you fit five people in a Bedroom? That sounds like it would be misery.


You can fit five in a family bedroom for "non-berth service" (see this link, page 8-71) and four in a regular bedroom...three on the sofa, one on the seat. I was going by memory when I posted, fact-checked myself, and edited the post. For "non-berth service" the room stays in daytime configuration the whole trip and is never made up for sleeping. It _can_ be done overnight, especially if you're boarding at, say, four in the morning...but it's perfect for a day trip like CHI-STL.


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## ehbowen (Aug 7, 2018)

Emma said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> We will be visiting the US next August from Jersey (Channel Islands, not NYC), arriving in Chicago. My daughter will be attending Space Academy so we were looking to book the Texas Eagle from Chicago to St Louis.
> 
> ...


Emma, what you need is a tool known as AmSnag. It puts in an automated query for all fares available between your city pairs so you can know what's available and at what price. You can also set up a "fare watch" which will email you if there is a price drop on an accommodation and travel date which you are particularly interested in. I'm attaching a sample AmSnag query output from CHI-STL for the month of September 2018. You can see that on several days both Bedrooms and Family Bedrooms are already Sold Out, but on 9/1/18 there is a Bedroom available for $371 and a Family Bedroom available for $327 (Family Bedroom is lower level with smaller windows, but has windows on both sides of the train and is physically larger. No in-room toilet, but several just out the door and down the hall.). Since this query was made for two passengers, you would also need to add in half of the coach fare shown (half of $44 or $22) to get the net price for your party of three to travel in one of these bedrooms. On 9/13/18 the two types of bedroom are again available at the same price, but note that the coach fare has jumped to $140 (for two passengers). You'd need to add $70 to the bedroom price to find your net ticket cost. For the _Lincoln Service_ trains in Business Class, just take the business class fare shown (which is for two passengers) and multiply it by 1.5.

Edit to Add: My bad; I forgot that for an additional sleeper passenger the additional fare is always the LOW BUCKET coach fare! So it should be half of the lowest fare shown, which would be the $22, for any available bedroom any day of the month.

Go ahead and play with this tool for now. Amtrak starts posting prices and accepting reservations 11 months out, so by the end of next month you can "go live" and see what the real price of your proposed trip will be. I hope it turns out well and that you have a great time!

AmsnagCHI-STL.20180807.pdf


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## cpotisch (Aug 7, 2018)

I would note that AmSnag fare alerts have been incredibly glitchy in my experience, and it will often send me a string of fare alerts in the same minute about the same itinerary but at wildly varying prices. Like it will let me know at 9:00 AM in a bunch of emails that a Bedroom has sold out, then become available again, then risen to the top bucket, then gone to the slightly lower bucket, then the bucket under that, then the bottom bucket, and then tell me that it's sold out again. That kind of stuff happens all the time for me, and any actual news just gets caught up in the pile of nonsense alerts. I could be the only person that this happens to, but it's made me give up on their fare alerts altogether.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 7, 2018)

I haven't had the best luck with the Fare Alert feature of Amsnag, either. Not really complaining, I think Amsnag is great, but I haven't had the best luck with Fare Alert, similar to cpotisch's experience, and so cannot recommend it, either.


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## cpotisch (Aug 7, 2018)

Agreed. I absolutely love using AmSnag for its main purpose of checking fares, but it seems like Paul hasn't been able to get fare alert to work reliably. Nonetheless, it's a free website that's invaluable to a lot of the Amtrak community, so I'm not going to complain any more.


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## Emma (Aug 8, 2018)

Thank you for your replies - I am indeed a complete idiot and Space Camp is in Huntsville! I just typed in Space Camp into google maps and it directed me to St Louis. Apologies for wasting everyone's time.

I am now going to dig a big hole and bury myself.


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## PVD (Aug 8, 2018)

I'll take "Why the internet can be dangerous for $200" ,Alex (a reference to a long running TV quiz show in North America)

Pretty much everyone on this site enjoys trying to help other people. We are from different backgrounds and geographic areas, often have differing ideas or viewpoints. There are even a few regulars who visit often from "across the pond" What unites us, our desire to chat about the latest Amtrak doings, bounce ideas off each other (realistic or not), and try and point folks in the right direction when conventional paths prove tricky.

There are a few different Space Camps and Academy programs in the US. The best known NASA affiliated program, the one that popped into my head right away was Huntsville, which is why I mentioned it. If your daughter is indeed going to that one, you may wish to come into the East Coast and travel from there. Maybe visit Washington, DC before/after. Just be absolutely certain where she is going before proceeding........Travel is expensive enough without rebooking and cancellation fees....Let us know how it works out....


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## cpotisch (Aug 8, 2018)

Annoyingly, it looks like there aren't any Amtrak stations even close to Huntsville. Looks like the nearest one would be Birmingham and that's more than two hours a way.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Annoyingly, it looks like there aren't any Amtrak stations even close to Huntsville. Looks like the nearest one would be Birmingham and that's more than two hours a way.


There is an Airport @ Huntsville.Many Governmentemployees,Military and "Consultants" travel here for business.

Also you can ride the Crescent to Birmingham and Rent a Car for the 2 hour drive as was said.

Not sure about buses( the New Intermodel Station in downtown is now open), seems like someone should know this on this Forum?


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## cpotisch (Aug 8, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Annoyingly, it looks like there aren't any Amtrak stations even close to Huntsville. Looks like the nearest one would be Birmingham and that's more than two hours a way.
> ...


I guess the OP could take the Capitol Limited or Cardinal to the Crescent, and then rent a car in Birmingham, but that doesn't sound particularly practical. Especially when you consider she thought it was a five hour ride to St. Louis, not a 35 hour trip with two overnights.


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## Ryan (Aug 8, 2018)

The OP is from outside the US and doesn’t have to start in Chicago.


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## cpotisch (Aug 8, 2018)

Ryan said:


> The OP is from outside the US and doesn’t have to start in Chicago.


True, but she said she's planning on starting her trip in Chicago. She could switch the trip around, but either way, Huntsville is a lot harder to get to by train than St. Louis would.


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## PVD (Aug 8, 2018)

Since it is a year away, it is probably safe to say they will not stick with the Chicago plans If Huntsville is the actual destination, they will likely rebook....HSV-ATL-MAN-JER comes to mind....maybe spend a day or 2 in Atlanta...


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## jebr (Aug 8, 2018)

Ryan said:


> The OP is from outside the US and doesn’t have to start in Chicago.


The OP states that they are arriving in Chicago, though...



Emma said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> We will be visiting the US next August from Jersey (Channel Islands, not NYC), arriving in Chicago.


Certainly, if the ticket isn't from Jersey to Chicago isn't booked, or can be easily changed, I'd highly recommend not arriving into Chicago. Chicago is over 550 miles (over 9 hours) from Huntsville, AL, and not terribly accessible without renting a car. (Buses are an option, but there's no listed Thruway connections from Amtrak, so any connections would be on your own.)

If you're able to change your ticket, flying in, and able/willing to drive in the US, I'd fly into Atlanta and rent a car to drive to Huntsville. It's a 3 and a half hour drive, but there should be plenty of flights (some possibly direct) to/from Atlanta to international destinations. Any closer airport would require a connection once arriving in the US. Huntsville does have bus service via Greyhound, and that route can be ticketed from Atlanta, but there would be a transfer in Birmingham. That said, if you're not wanting to drive in the US or minimize driving, I'd suggest paying the extra to fly direct to Huntsville and relying on Uber/Lyft/taxis or their public transit system.

If you're really desiring to take an overnight train journey, I'd fly into any of the NYC airports (JFK, LGA, or EWR) and take the Crescent to either Atlanta or Birmingham. Birmingham would be less driving, but I'm not sure how easy it is to get a rental car at the Birmingham train station. (I'm not sure how easy it is to get one right at the Atlanta train station either, but there is bus service to MARTA's rail system to get you to the airport, which has plenty of 24/7 rental car options.)


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## the_traveler (Aug 8, 2018)

Even before the Internet, there were problems.

In 1980, the Olympics were in Lake Placid, New York. So many foreign visitors flew into New York, New York. Some of them hailed a cab at the airport and told the cab driver they wanted to go to Lake Placid. The driver said sure - and drove, and drove, and drove, and drove, and ...!

They did not tell the passenger that Lake Placid was over 300 miles (500 km) from New York City!


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## PVD (Aug 8, 2018)

Yup. So true. It is 299.8 miles from my door to the Olympic Training Center on Old Military Rd right outside of town But if I hit a few rest stops I get over 300...and JFK is about 4 1/2 miles South of me. But its only 112 miles from LP to Montreal.....Little did folks know.... One year, I had a NYSAHA meeting in LP and took the train to Westport, with the van connection to my hotel. With tip for driver, still below half the price of my mileage and tolls....slow, but very pretty in the fall.


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## Ryan (Aug 8, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The OP is from outside the US and doesn’t have to start in Chicago.
> ...





jebr said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The OP is from outside the US and doesn’t have to start in Chicago.
> ...


I gave the OP sufficient credit to not do something dumb and fly into the wrong part of the country. Given that the trip is over a year away, it's not likely that tickets are bought yet.


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## chakk (Aug 8, 2018)

Many cases have occurred where folks wanting to travel to San Jose (California) wound up in San Jose (Costa Rica).

And a few years ago, someone wanting to go to Oakland (Calif) was ticketed by the airline to Auckland (New Zealand).


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 8, 2018)

jebr said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The OP is from outside the US and doesn’t have to start in Chicago.
> ...





> I do not have exact travel dates as yet because flights are not yet available to book but it will be in August 2019


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## Ryan (Aug 8, 2018)




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## the_traveler (Aug 8, 2018)

There is also a commercial that says you wanted to vacation in Athens, Greece but you booked your flight to Athens, Georgia (US)!

In New York State, there are towns named Peru, Mexico and Greece. There are also an Amsterdam, Rome, Kingston and Florida.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2018)

I once had an Airline Rez Clerk, back in the days before Computers, try to book me to Austin,Minnesota instead of Austin,Texas.


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## Ryan (Aug 8, 2018)

My boss just today told me of the work trip that he tried to take to Minneapolis at the same time a cow-irker was traveling in Indianapolis.

Hilarity ensued, neither of them ever made it to Minndianapolis.


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## jebr (Aug 8, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> I once had an Airline Rez Clerk, back in the days before Computers, try to book me to Austin,Minnesota instead of Austin,Texas.


There's an interesting spam museum in Austin, MN. Not sure it's worth flying to, though, unless you're really into spam.

These days you can't fly into Austin, MN commercially. It'd be a tad tougher for an airline agent to make that mistake today!


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2018)

Thanks Jeb, there's lots of places and connections you can't get to or make anymore on ALL types of Transportation.


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## jis (Aug 8, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> There is also a commercial that says you wanted to vacation in Athens, Greece but you booked your flight to Athens, Georgia (US)!
> 
> In New York State, there are towns named Peru, Mexico and Greece. There are also an Amsterdam, Rome, Kingston and Florida.


There is a Delhi in NY State too, but it has no airport, perhaps fortunately.

Then again, I live in Melbourne in Florida which has a commercial airport with regular commercial service from at least two of the majors.


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## PVD (Aug 8, 2018)

NY has loads more. When I was little, I used to help my father study for the periodic exams he took as a distribution clerk/outgoing NY Mail (mail sorter before machine sorting) They had little cards with the name of a town, and on the back was the place where the mail was routed through. I would read the name of the town, he had to call off where the mail went after leaving NYC - Potsdam, Warsaw, Dunkirk, Jamestown, Long Beach, Boston, Bombay (and many others)


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2018)

Texas has Many towns with the same Names as those in other Countries and States.

Among them: Atlanta,Albany,Athens,Bloomington,Bogota,Buffalo,China,Cleveland,Fresno,Memphis,

New London,New Boston,New Berlin,Naples,Omaha,Pittsburg(sp)Palestine,Petersburg,St. Paul,

Italy,Iraan(sp),Paris,Portland,San Diego,Sunnyvale,Victoria,

Also noted for Cities with Wierd Names, my Top 5: Welfare,Gun Barrel City,Dime Box,Old Dime Box and Muleshoe.


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## cpotisch (Aug 8, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Texas has Many towns with the same Names as those in other Countries and States.
> 
> Among them: Atlanta,Albany,Athens,Bloomington,Bogota,Buffalo,China,Cleveland,Fresno,Memphis,
> 
> ...


Whoah. Maybe all the Viewliner diners are just named after cities in Texas, and not after eastern capitals!


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## the_traveler (Aug 8, 2018)

You can book a train to Albany, OR, Rensselaer, IN or Albany-Rensselaer, NY (better known as Albany). You can also book a train to Portland, OR or Portland, ME.

You can also take a train to Newark in NJ or DE and Vancouver in WA or BC - and both Newarks and both Vancouvers are on the same route.


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## CCC1007 (Aug 8, 2018)

How can you pass through Belgrade, Manhattan and Amsterdam in a single hour?


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## JayPea (Aug 8, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Also noted for Cities with Wierd Names, my Top 5: Welfare,Gun Barrel City,Dime Box,Old Dime Box and Muleshoe.


Washington has its share of interesting place names too: Dexter by the Sea, Six Prong, Jims Corner (thought you might like that one, Jim ), Snoose Junction, and my personal favorite, Humptulips. One can do a lot of domestic and world travel here in the state of Washington too: Miami Beach, Bangor, Brooklyn, Fairbanks, Ireland, Rhodesia Beach, Egypt, and Trinidad amongst them.


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## jis (Aug 9, 2018)

But none has Intercourse like Pennsylvania does [emoji51]


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## Emma (Aug 9, 2018)

Me again!

We had a funny situation here this year where a guy from New Jersey joined a Facebook group about businesses in Jersey. He posted on the page his mistake saying he didn't know there was a Jersey or the history of people from Jersey coming to US and hence New Jersey. The people of Jersey clubbed together and paid for him and his girlfriend to fly here, putting him up for a few weeks, staging welcome parties in the different Parishes and showing him the sights! He had a great time out of simple mistake and now I feel so welcomed by you all and your kind suggestions and stories from my error.

Anyway just to explain a bit further. My daughter is going to the NASA Space Camp in Huntsville and our plans were to:

Fly to Chicago - train to St Louis (Doh!!) drop our daughter off, have a child free week in Nashville, collect her, go back to Chicago and then RV Lake Michigan.

Now thanks to the kind posters here I have realised my mistake and we are either flying from London to Nashville or Atlanta, dropping off daughter at Huntsville, spending a child-free week in Nashville, collecting her and then not sure. We could just fly back to Chicago but I have my heart set on the Amtrak and we could do an RV trip somewhere else.

Any suggestions on the best/scenic routes would be wonderful but no expected....

Best,

Emma


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## bms (Aug 9, 2018)

From Huntsville you could drive about 2 hours south and catch the Crescent in either Anniston or Birmingham, Alabama. From there you could take the Crescent south to New Orleans, see New Orleans for a day or two then take the City of New Orleans which is an overnight train north to Chicago. You would be able to see a great city and experience staying in a sleeper car.


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## JRR (Aug 9, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> You can book a train to Albany, OR, Rensselaer, IN or Albany-Rensselaer, NY (better known as Albany). You can also book a train to Portland, OR or Portland, ME.
> 
> You can also take a train to Newark in NJ or DE and Vancouver in WA or BC - and both Newarks and both Vancouvers are on the same route.


Don’t forget Newark, Ohio (pronounced “Nerc”!

There are some places that like they say in Lancaster, Pa., “You can’t get there from here!”


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## PVD (Aug 9, 2018)

Growing up, my favorite cow (Elsie) traced her roots to the Channel Islands (she was a Jersey)


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## the_traveler (Aug 9, 2018)

jis said:


> But none has Intercourse like Pennsylvania does [emoji51]


If you ride the Stratsburg RR to Intercourse, you go thru Paradise!


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## jis (Aug 9, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > But none has Intercourse like Pennsylvania does [emoji51]
> ...


Doesn't Paradise come after Intercourse?


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## the_traveler (Aug 9, 2018)

Depends which way you are going!


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