# the canadian



## Guest_MontanaJim_*

I was thinking of taking the canadian. however it appears much of the trip through the mtns will be in the dark. Why is that? why cant the route the train through the mtns in the daylight?


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## MrEd

I thought this train only went during the day, that is why it takes 4 days. I always had a terrible time finding info on the via website though.

>>>

Make your own history as you retrace the western transcontinental route

that, early last century, opened the West and created a bond of steel that

redefined the nation.

Book a full three-day and three-night journey and explore Canada’s diversity

in comfort and art deco-style, as you head through the majestic Rockies to

big-sky country and on to the enchanting lakes and forests of Ontario

before arriving in energetic Toronto.

Year-round, the Canadian® departs three times per week from Vancouver

and Toronto, and is scheduled to ensure daylight viewing of the Rockies.

There are two classes of service: Comfort® (Economy) and Silver & Blue™

>>>


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## MrFSS

Here is the current *Canadian *schedule east and west bound. Most of the travel through the Rockies is in the dark.


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## jackal

MrEd said:


> I thought this train only went during the day, that is why it takes 4 days. I always had a terrible time finding info on the via website though.


I thought that, too, but after doing some reading in Wikipedia, I think we're both thinking about the Rocky Mountaineer, a privately-run tourist train that only runs during the daytime and is designed specifically to take advantage of the scenery.

The Canadian, on the other hand, is like Amtrak--mostly a functional train (though they do have some premium offerings on board for first-class passengers), although like the EB and CZ, it traverses some beautiful scenery. However, from Wikipedia (emphasis mine):



> In the aftermath of the deep budget cuts made to VIA Rail on January 15, 1990, the _Super Continental_ service was abolished and the _Canadian_ was moved from the CPR route to the _Super Continental's_ CN route. This maintained transcontinental service and allowed VIA to operate its government-mandated service to small communities along the line. *The CN route is widely acknowledged to be less scenic, particularly in the sections through the **Rocky Mountains* and north of Lake Superior. Service was also reduced to 3 days per week. Today, VIA Rail continues to operate the _Canadian_ using the CN route with rebuilt ex-CPR Budd passenger equipment.


There's also the Skeena, which traverses the Rockies and the Coast Ranges with an overnight stop in Prince George (and no accomodations available on the train, so you have to book a hotel in Prince George!).


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## MrFSS

jackal said:


> MrEd said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this train only went during the day, that is why it takes 4 days. I always had a terrible time finding info on the via website though.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that, too, but after doing some reading in Wikipedia, I think we're both thinking about the Rocky Mountaineer, a privately-run tourist train that only runs during the daytime and is designed specifically to take advantage of the scenery.
> 
> The Canadian, on the other hand, is like Amtrak--mostly a functional train (though they do have some premium offerings on board for first-class passengers), although like the EB and CZ, it traverses some beautiful scenery. However, from Wikipedia (emphasis mine):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the aftermath of the deep budget cuts made to VIA Rail on January 15, 1990, the _Super Continental_ service was abolished and the _Canadian_ was moved from the CPR route to the _Super Continental's_ CN route. This maintained transcontinental service and allowed VIA to operate its government-mandated service to small communities along the line. *The CN route is widely acknowledged to be less scenic, particularly in the sections through the **Rocky Mountains* and north of Lake Superior. Service was also reduced to 3 days per week. Today, VIA Rail continues to operate the _Canadian_ using the CN route with rebuilt ex-CPR Budd passenger equipment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's also the Skeena, which traverses the Rockies and the Coast Ranges with an overnight stop in Prince George (and no accommodations available on the train, so you have to book a hotel in Prince George!).
Click to expand...

Yes - _*The Rock Mountaineer*_ is a great train ride. My wife and I took it several years ago. If you are interested in pictures, they are here:

*First Day*

*Second Day*

Only goes during the daylight and the price includes your hotel and all meals.


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## jamesontheroad

jackal said:


> The Canadian, on the other hand, is like Amtrak--mostly a functional train (though they do have some premium offerings on board for first-class passengers), although like the EB and CZ, it traverses some beautiful scenery.


I would disagree with that statement entirely. Just taking a look at the fares of the Canadian relative to Amtrak confirms that this is anything but a functional train; the proportion of "Silver & Blue" first class sleeper passengers to coach passengers is immense, and first class on VIA's long distance trains is a world away from Amtrak.

The timetable does indeed miss some of the Rockies traveling by night, but (going west at least) from April through until about late September you'll still enjoy long enough days to get a great pre-bedtime view of the mountains the evening you leave Vancouver and then a good long morning until lunchtime before you're in the flat plains of Alberta. See the link in my sig for some pics from 2006.


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## MrFSS

If it is a clear moonlit night, riding in a dome car is spectacular. Except for some floor lighting for safety, they are completely dark and the view outside, even at night is very nice. Especially since you can see directly ahead which one can't experience in the sightseer lounge car.


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## MrEd

this is the part I dont get, on the via site it states

"Year-round, the Canadian® departs three times per week from Vancouver

and Toronto, and is scheduled to ensure daylight viewing of the Rockies."

I guess that is only in the summer then

I could also be talking about the Rocky Mountaineer and not even know it.


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## p&sr

MrEd said:


> "Year-round, the Canadian® departs three times per week from Vancouverand Toronto, and is scheduled to ensure daylight viewing of the Rockies."
> 
> I guess that is only in the summer then


They DO ensure daylight viewing of the Rockies. Also nighttime viewing of the Rockies. They're big mountains. There's plenty to go around.

Summer certainly offers more daylight.

I've ridden the Canadian a couple of times. Once straight through from Toronto to Vancouver. The scenery becomes very interesting west of Edmonton. So just that section (Edmonton to Vancouver, with morning departure) could well be considered for a shorter trip.

The other trip was Vancouver to Jasper and back again (which can be done with or without one or more overnights in Jasper, depending on what day you start). This includes all the best mountain scenery, and is truly spectacular. Most of what is missed in the dark is the area around Kamloops and the Fraser River Canyon.


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## Green Maned Lion

jackal said:


> The Canadian, on the other hand, is like Amtrak--mostly a functional train (though they do have some premium offerings on board for first-class passengers), although like the EB and CZ, it traverses some beautiful scenery. However, from Wikipedia (emphasis mine)n the train, so you have to book a hotel in Prince George!).


Jackal, the Canadian is too danged expensive to be mere transportation. The price of an upper berth is more than a high-bucket bedroom on the Empire Builder.


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## jackal

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> jackal said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Canadian, on the other hand, is like Amtrak--mostly a functional train (though they do have some premium offerings on board for first-class passengers), although like the EB and CZ, it traverses some beautiful scenery.
> 
> 
> 
> I would disagree with that statement entirely. Just taking a look at the fares of the Canadian relative to Amtrak confirms that this is anything but a functional train; the proportion of "Silver & Blue" first class sleeper passengers to coach passengers is immense, and first class on VIA's long distance trains is a world away from Amtrak.
Click to expand...

It may be an expensive functional train that doubles as a tourist train/land cruise, but the reason for its existence is like the reason for many Amtrak routes' existence: government-mandated service to small communities along the route.


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## Neil_M

Green Maned Lion said:


> jackal said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Canadian, on the other hand, is like Amtrak--mostly a functional train (though they do have some premium offerings on board for first-class passengers), although like the EB and CZ, it traverses some beautiful scenery. However, from Wikipedia (emphasis mine)n the train, so you have to book a hotel in Prince George!).
> 
> 
> 
> Jackal, the Canadian is too danged expensive to be mere transportation. The price of an upper berth is more than a high-bucket bedroom on the Empire Builder.
Click to expand...

Its only too expensive if you cant afford it.......


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## Green Maned Lion

I disagree. I can travel from Toronto to Schenectady on the Adirondack, Schenectady to Chicago on the LSL in a Roomette, Chicago to Seattle on the Empire Builder, and Seattle to Vancouver on the Cascades in BC, AND TAKE A HOTEL ROOM FOR THE OVERNIGHT IN SEATTLE than it would cost me to buy a upper berth accommodation on the Canadian.

Reasonable transportation is priced reasonably, based upon its cost combined with a small profit for its provider. Greyhound is reasonably priced. Amtrak is reasonably priced. VIARail is highway robbery. I can't afford to take Amtrak as much as I'd like, but I don't question that their prices are reasonable.


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## Neil_M

Green Maned Lion said:


> I disagree. I can travel from Toronto to Schenectady on the Adirondack, Schenectady to Chicago on the LSL in a Roomette, Chicago to Seattle on the Empire Builder, and Seattle to Vancouver on the Cascades in BC, AND TAKE A HOTEL ROOM FOR THE OVERNIGHT IN SEATTLE than it would cost me to buy a upper berth accommodation on the Canadian.
> Reasonable transportation is priced reasonably, based upon its cost combined with a small profit for its provider. Greyhound is reasonably priced. Amtrak is reasonably priced. VIARail is highway robbery. I can't afford to take Amtrak as much as I'd like, but I don't question that their prices are reasonable.


So what?

If I wanted to travel from London to New York I could pay £5000 for an Upper Class fare on Virgin, that's still transportation, even if I could buy about 15 -20 economy returns for that.

Amtrak fares reasonable? For basic coach travel, maybe. For sleeper accommodation, not so much, especially for roomettes. But it is still only expensive if you cant afford it.


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## Green Maned Lion

Considering their sleeper travel includes meals, I'd say their low-bucket fares are very reasonable.

The idea of flying from New York to London is so abhorant to me, I'm not even going to go further into this!


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## Neil_M

Green Maned Lion said:


> Considering their sleeper travel includes meals, I'd say their low-bucket fares are very reasonable.
> The idea of flying from New York to London is so abhorant to me, I'm not even going to go further into this!


Low bucket fares are good value with meals included, true. High bucket fares are a rip off.

Flying is very crap. But I like travelling by train in America and my girlfriend lives in New Jersey.

7 hours in a plane is worth it, and that's a total turn round for me from 13 months ago, for a bloke who hates flying and hated America even more. So never say never......


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## the_traveler

Green Maned Lion said:


> I disagree. *I can travel from Toronto to Schenectady on the Adirondack*, Schenectady to Chicago on the LSL in a Roomette, Chicago to Seattle on the Empire Builder, and Seattle to Vancouver on the Cascades in BC, AND TAKE A HOTEL ROOM FOR THE OVERNIGHT IN SEATTLE than it would cost me to buy a upper berth accommodation on the Canadian.
> Reasonable transportation is priced reasonably, based upon its cost combined with a small profit for its provider. Greyhound is reasonably priced. Amtrak is reasonably priced. VIARail is highway robbery. I can't afford to take Amtrak as much as I'd like, but I don't question that their prices are reasonable.


You must be someone real special that they route the Adirondack from *Toronto* to Schenectady! For everyone else, the Adirondack runs from *Montreal* to Schenectady!


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## Green Maned Lion

I always confuse the Maple Leaf and Adirondack. Doh.


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## Skeena_PG

Silver & Blue on the Canadian (and most sleeper/first class products) on Via Trains are quite expensive. However, it is the revenue from that that keeps the trains afloat. If you thought America was bad for funding Amtrak, look north of the border for a real political football with Via. The Canadian government has never funded Via properly (nor enabled it properly, since Via was created by order-in-council (i.e. Executive Order by the federal cabinet) as opposed to legislation), and has always cut services if need be (the Super Continental, the Atlantic, The Enterprise, The Bras d'Or, need I go on...)

Last September, traveling from Prince Rupert to Prince George, Comfort class was packed and I asked to see if I could upgrade from Comfort to Totem Class on the Skeena. Even for the one leg from Rupert-PG, an extra $500. It is for tourists, both in service and in price. So I roughed it for 12 hours in the single coach.

That being said, I'd personally take Via over Rocky Mountaineer any day.


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## Ryan

Green Maned Lion said:


> Jackal, the Canadian is too danged expensive to be mere transportation. The price of an upper berth is more than a high-bucket bedroom on the Empire Builder.


Not quite, remember that Via's site is quoting prices in CAD, not USD.

Looking ahead to Jan 14 (randomly selected day way in the future):

Canadian Upper Berth: 875.70 CAD (686.98 USD)

Empire Builder Bedroom: 626 USD (railfare+accommodations) - if you use high bucket (assuming that tomorrow's EB is selling bedrooms at high bucket), that jumps the price up to $856.

So for 60 dollars more (comparing low bucket to low bucket), you get nearly twice the trip (86h vs 46h) in terms of time (and therefore twice the meals), and nearly 600 miles longer (2200 vs 2800).


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## jis

HokieNav said:


> Not quite, remember that Via's site is quoting prices in CAD, not USD.
> Looking ahead to Jan 14 (randomly selected day way in the future):
> 
> Canadian Upper Berth: 875.70 CAD (686.98 USD)
> 
> Empire Builder Bedroom: 626 USD (railfare+accommodations) - if you use high bucket (assuming that tomorrow's EB is selling bedrooms at high bucket), that jumps the price up to $856.
> 
> So for 60 dollars more (comparing low bucket to low bucket), you get nearly twice the trip (86h vs 46h) in terms of time (and therefore twice the meals), and nearly 600 miles longer (2200 vs 2800).


Yes, fares in the winter time are spectacularly lower on the Canadian. Try fares in the summer. Good thing is that Canadian does not have yield management based multiple fare buckets, so what they quote is the one single fare. It just changes with season.

Also keep in mind that a Canadian upper berth is in a section. It is not in a private room unlike the Empire Builder roomette, so the comparison is not apples to apples. To do more of an apples to apples comparison one needs to compare Canadian's "single bedroom" with and Amtrak roomette.

Also comparing the number of hours as a measure is somewhat hokie since the Canadian is probably the pokiest transcon of all the transcons in North America.

But I still like tha Canadian for what it is - IMHO a tourist train which has some incidental transportation value for a few.


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## Ryan

I did forget about the winter/summer pricing.

Summer pricing for an upper is 1390 CAD, or 1090 USD, so GML was half right (I didn't dig into it, but I'm willing to bet that in most cases his claim that he could go Toronto - Schenectady - Chicago - Seattle - hotel room - Vancouver more cheaply is dead wrong, even when looking at summertime prices).

I'm well aware of the fact that this isn't an apples to apples comparison - just trying to put GMLs comments into a little more context.

I think that the hours comparison is perfectly valid - if you think of the fact that you're using the facility for twice the time, that's onboard staff that's having to be paid twice as much, and twice the number of meals consumed that need to be paid for. I did include the number of miles to put the distance in perspective as well - while the train is slower, you are being moved ~25% farther in the process.

Also not addressed is the frequent commentary that the level of service on Via is head and shoulders above that found on any Amtrak train (I haven't personally experienced this yet, but I'm looking forward to it at some time in the future).

If you take all that into account, it's pretty clear (in my mind at least) that the prices up North aren't as out of line as they seem to be.


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## jis

HokieNav said:


> If you take all that into account, it's pretty clear (in my mind at least) that the prices up North aren't as out of line as they seem to be.


I will not disagree that the pricing in the sleeper is pretty good for a tourist train  . For day to day service it is steep.

I have traveled on that train at least 3 times now and have talked to a few Canadian who were actually using it as transportation. They were mostly in coach. Only one of them was in sleeper in a single bedroom across the aisle from me, and she was getting a freebie using VIA points. She said she would never be able to afford a sleeper on that train on her own. She was booked to travel coach on her return trip from Red Lake Road to Toronto. 80% of the travelers in the sleepers were tour groups. Most of the others were individual tourists like me, or couple tourists. Coming to think of it I don;t recall bumping into any simple transportation user other than the lady from Red Lake Road in sleepers. Whatever little transportation user types were almost all in the two coaches tucked away unceremoneously way up front. They had a single Skyline dome that doubles for lounge and diner.

The days when I traveled, twice in summer season, once in winter, the sections were used pretty sparingly. The most heavily used were the double bedrooms by the tour groups.

In winter season the train had one coach, two or three Manor sleepers, a diner, the Park obs-dome bringing up the rear and a skyline dome for the coach folks + a baggage car up front. There was only a single seating in the single Diner that was full. The second seating had all of two tables occupied, which gives you a good idea of how many people were actually on the train.

In the summer it had 2 coaches and a Skyline dome for the coach folks and there was a string of 12 or so Manor and Chateau sleepers in groups of 4 separated by a diner and a Skyline dome, and of course the Park obs-dome in the rear. I was told that on the heaviest days it would at most have one more section of 6 cars added in the middle - 4 sleepers, a diner and a Skyline. Beyond that the train would not fit at service stop sidings like at Edmonton.


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