# City of New Orleans routing



## Exvalley

Pardon me if this has been discussed before, but my search came up empty.

Two questions in regard to the City of New Orleans:
1) Why don't they route it through St. Louis? It seems like an awfully big city to miss by about 60 miles.
2) In the alternative, what about a routing like this: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Memphis - New Orleans. Neither Louisville nor Nashville are served by Amtrak, so it would be nice to add these cities to the route network.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

There used to be a train called the “river cities” that would split off and run to St. Louis and become the Kansas City train. You could ride one seat from New Orleans to St. Louis or Kansas City. That’s how we used to visit my grandparents in St. Louis, then we switched to the Texas Eagle when that train was discontinued. (Hammond LA and Marshall TX were similar driving distance for us).


----------



## NativeSon5859

Exvalley said:


> Pardon me if this has been discussed before, but my search came up empty.
> 
> Two questions in regard to the City of New Orleans:
> 1) Why don't they route it through St. Louis? It seems like an awfully big city to miss by about 60 miles.
> 2) In the alternative, what about a routing like this: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Memphis - New Orleans. Neither Louisville nor Nashville are served by Amtrak, so it would be nice to add these cities to the route network.



1. Is there a direct route from Memphis to St. Louis? It would probably add a couple of hours of increased trip time if so. There’s a pretty easy thruway connection in Carbondale that you can take to STL. Downside is it’s a van, but I’ve used it a few times. Not a bad ride, only about 90 minutes. 

2. This would really push the trip time way up. Will never happen. Better chance of seeing the return of the L&N Pan American, IMO.


----------



## Seaboard92

NativeSon5859 said:


> 1. Is there a direct route from Memphis to St. Louis?



The former Frisco Mainline now owned by BNSF that served the Kansas City-Florida Special still exists. And it is still a main line between the two points. It runs along the river so flooding might be an issue.


----------



## NativeSon5859

Maybe it's easier to just stay on CN all the way, instead of having to deal with BNSF as well. Plus, the train would have to make several moves IIRC to access the Memphis river bridge after it makes the station stop.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Given that a reroute is not likely either, I think we should push for either a connecting train or thru cars on such a route rather than rerouting the entire train. Amtrak already struggles to compete with driving when it comes to driving time so I'm not eager to add multiple hours to the route when Chicago would still generate significantly more traffic than St. Louis and a thruway connection to STL is already available.

This topic has me wondering how many routes don't take the shortest route between endpoints. Come to think of it, there are at least 8 LD routes that take longer routes than necessary. Below are the ones I can think of along with a faster alternative route.
-California Zephyr (UP across Wyoming)
-Cardinal (LSL Route)
-Coast Starlight (via Central Valley)
-Empire Builder (bypass Grand Forks)
-Silver Meteor (FEC)
-Silver Star (FEC, A-Line through Carolinas)
-Southwest Chief (Southern Transcon via Texas Panhandle)
-Texas Eagle (via KC and OKC)

Many of them take the longer routes in order to serve major cities, such as the CZ, CS, and SS, which makes sense especially considering how few passengers ride end to end. It would be nice if the system was large enough for more of a variety in LD routes, but I don't forsee it in the near future. I don't know how track conditions have changed, but the 1969 schedule for the City of San Francisco was a full 9 hours faster than the current CZ.


----------



## lostcat

The KC connection was made at Centralia and ran over the former Southern to St Louis. Another option is to split the CON at Memphis becoming day trains to New Orleans, and Birmingham/Montgomery/Mobile.


----------



## railiner

lostcat said:


> The KC connection was made at Centralia and ran over the former Southern to St Louis.


That was initially...later on the River Cities ran from Centralia on to Carbondale (duplicating the CONO route) to make the connection. Seemed wasteful, but probably saved labor somehow, as Carbondale was where the trains were serviced. It is also where pre-Amtrak IC trains made their St. Louis connection.


----------



## railiner

Amtrak's CONO is a lot slower than the original IC CONO's all coach, all day streamliner...it made the trip in 15 hours and 55 minutes.





The City of New Orleans - June, 1947 - Streamliner Schedules


June 1947 timetable for the City of New Orleans passenger train at Streamliner Schedules.



www.streamlinerschedules.com




That was when it ran up to 100 mph on "The Mainline of Mid America"...

The Amtrak version also lost more time when it moved over to Union Station, from IC's more direct lakefront Central Station. Further rerouting from the IC's original Grenada District, over to the Yazoo District in 1995 also may have slowed it somewhat...

If they were looking for even faster times, they could possibly have used the freight only, Edgewood Cutoff...but that bypassed too many stops.


----------



## LookingGlassTie

For some reason I thought the CoNO already ran through St. Louis on its way to Chicago.

Well you learn something new every day................


----------



## Dakota 400

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I don't know how track conditions have changed, but the 1969 schedule for the City of San Francisco was a full 9 hours faster than the current CZ.



Never rode on the City of San Francisco, but have ridden on the CZ a few times. There are sections of track along the CZ route in Nebraska and Iowa that usually provide the roughest ride I experience on Amtrak. If the train went any faster than it does now, I can't imagine how poor the ride experience would be.


----------



## west point

The CNO making a connection to a Kansas City - STL - Centralia - Carbondale - Nashville. That could be an extension of the proposed Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta train that would connect to the north of ATL Crescent both ways.

Now you have CHI - Nashville / ATL service and once enough passengers thru coaches and sleepers. Intermediate stations will have many services.
Now you have one River Runner giving connections to all those intermediate cities thru ATL all the way to CLT. There would be a wait at CLT to connect to the Carolinian.

Centralia - Nashville are short lines that would need some work but to this poster that keeps the CNO shortest time and adds STL - NOL / STL - Nashville / ATL and finally CHI - Nashville - ATL service. There are so many different station pairs that become possible that arrow might crash ! End points are not so important. 

This might cause the CNO to become single level. That will cause Amtrak to get another location for intermediate servicing of Superliners.


----------



## jloewen

railiner said:


> Amtrak's CONO is a lot slower than the original IC CONO's all coach, all day streamliner...it made the trip in 15 hours and 55 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The City of New Orleans - June, 1947 - Streamliner Schedules
> 
> 
> June 1947 timetable for the City of New Orleans passenger train at Streamliner Schedules.
> 
> 
> 
> www.streamlinerschedules.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was when it ran up to 100 mph on "The Mainline of Mid America"...
> 
> The Amtrak version also lost more time when it moved over to Union Station, from IC's more direct lakefront Central Station. Further rerouting from the IC's original Grenada District, over to the Yazoo District in 1995 also may have slowed it somewhat...
> 
> If they were looking for even faster times, they could possibly have used the freight only, Edgewood Cutoff...but that bypassed too many stops.


I took the IC, perhaps the Magnolia Star, from Jackson MS to Mattoon IL, around 1970. Between Centralia and Mattoon, it was scheduled at 81 MPH with stops (Effingham). We made up 15 minutes. I did the math and concluded we had to be moving at 110-115 MPH. Right about then, the Metroliner had debuted, and publicists claimed it would eventually do 110-115 MPH. (It never did, though.) Gasp!


----------



## railiner

The IC was the first 'real' railroad I ever rode, having previously only ridden subway trains. I went thru tech school at Chanute AFB (Rantoul) in 1966, and had my first train ride on weekend leave. I rode north to Chicago on a secondary train, No. 8, the Creole. While waiting for that local to arrive, we had to move back from the edge of the platform as the 100 mph "City of Miami" thundered through, blasting its chime horn, and swinging its Mars Light.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I was born too late to ride the IC. But I got to ride in an IC lounge / sleeper on a regularly scheduled city of New Orleans thanks to Iowa Pacific so I’ll count myself very lucky!


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> I was born too late to ride the IC. But I got to ride in an IC lounge / sleeper on a regularly scheduled city of New Orleans thanks to Iowa Pacific so I’ll count myself very lucky!


I've always regretted missing out on riding the CONO and the Hoosier State when Iowa Pacific was operating their Cars on those Trains.


----------



## NativeSon5859

Bob Dylan said:


> I've always regretted missing out on riding the CONO and the Hoosier State when Iowa Pacific was operating their Cars on those Trains.



I managed to try the IP Hoosier State (next to the Canadian it was the greatest train ride I'd ever been on), but I'm kicking myself for not giving the Pullman Rail Journeys a shot when it ran on the back of the CONO.


----------



## Seaboard92

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> This topic has me wondering how many routes don't take the shortest route between endpoints. Come to think of it, there are at least 8 LD routes that take longer routes than necessary. Below are the ones I can think of along with a faster alternative route.
> -California Zephyr (UP across Wyoming)
> -Cardinal (LSL Route)
> -Coast Starlight (via Central Valley)
> -Empire Builder (bypass Grand Forks)
> -Silver Meteor (FEC)
> -Silver Star (FEC, A-Line through Carolinas)
> -Southwest Chief (Southern Transcon via Texas Panhandle)
> -Texas Eagle (via KC and OKC)




I'll try and answer this one. 

-California Zephyr: Mainly because the EX Rio Grande is considered by the general public to be one of the most scenic railway journeys in the United States. The Burlington Route, Rio Grande, and Western Pacific really out did themselves when it came to putting this train together, it was a train designed around scenery and not speed unlike the overland route. The CZ even in the streamliner era out performed on ridership over the Overland route, scenery sells. 
-Cardinal: This is due to West Virginia needing service, especially when they had a powerful senator who preserved this train. Originally the gateway for the C&O Route across the West Virginia was Cincinnati, OH and Amtrak didn't want to have an additional hub there. Which in retrospect is a really dumb move on their part because Cincinnati is home to a ton of high potential corridors CIN-CLE, CIN-DET, CIN-CHI, CIN-PGH, and CIN-STL. 
-Coast Starlight: Again scenery sells the Coast Daylight the predecessor had a fantastic track record on this route. At one point it was the most profitable train in the country. 
-Empire Builder: There is a more direct route between Minot and Fargo and historically that was the route of the Empire Builder while the Western Star went to Grand Forks. The line to Grand Forks I believe has less traffic which makes it more appealing. I actually don't have a good answer on this one. 
-Florida East Coast: One great reason to bypass this route Walt Disney World. Such a great traffic driver for the Florida Trains. The Seaboard and Atlantic Coastline worked hard to turn Florida into an all season destination in the 1940s and 50s, and Disney delivered that in the 1970s. A large ridership generator. 
-Silver Star in the Carolinas: Mostly because Columbia and Raleigh deserve to have service as state capitols, and they both historically had great service between Florida and New York on that route. Had the Norlina Sub not been ripped up in North Carolina the route would be substantially shorter than it is today. One day they claim they will reopen it, I will believe it when I see it. 
-Southwest Chief: Part of the reason they don't take the Southern Transcon is because that is a super busy stretch of railroad. That and it doesn't have that many population centers along it's route aside from Amarillo. The current route has Albuquerque and in Santa Fe days had a train connection to Denver from LAJ. The route via Raton Pass has always been the passenger route historically, and it will likely remain that. 
-Texas Eagle: This train really isn't that indirect in my opinion. Of course the original Texas Eagle actually split into sections to service San Antonio, Houston, and El Paso when the Missouri Pacific ran it. This train also serves a unique political motive as well because it adds Arkansas into the network.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

I'm going to add my worthless answers to Seaboards. 

1. Coast Starlight: also because Tehachapi (sp) is overcrowded by freight - or claimed to be. 
2. FEC quit passenger service before A-Day and didn't want Amtrak (and now has BrightVirgin trains). 
3. Empire Building: the logic I hear is no air service or nearby expressways to the route it serves. I think part of the other routes have been downgraded or there was no support earlier and the route is stuck, though I remember something about a reroute being offered which would have gone through one of the bigger towns on the route, something to do with Devil's Lake (not the state park in Wisconsin) flooding.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> I've always regretted missing out on riding the CONO and the Hoosier State when Iowa Pacific was operating their Cars on those Trains.



My parents, dad especially, talked about how great the original CONO was - steak dinners and such. Funnily enough, as an aside, his workplace had an in-house travel agent, who had always enjoyed train travel back in the 50's with her family over flying.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Seaboard92 said:


> I'll try and answer this one.
> 
> -California Zephyr: Mainly because the EX Rio Grande is considered by the general public to be one of the most scenic railway journeys in the United States. The Burlington Route, Rio Grande, and Western Pacific really out did themselves when it came to putting this train together, it was a train designed around scenery and not speed unlike the overland route. The CZ even in the streamliner era out performed on ridership over the Overland route, scenery sells.
> -Cardinal: This is due to West Virginia needing service, especially when they had a powerful senator who preserved this train. Originally the gateway for the C&O Route across the West Virginia was Cincinnati, OH and Amtrak didn't want to have an additional hub there. Which in retrospect is a really dumb move on their part because Cincinnati is home to a ton of high potential corridors CIN-CLE, CIN-DET, CIN-CHI, CIN-PGH, and CIN-STL.
> -Coast Starlight: Again scenery sells the Coast Daylight the predecessor had a fantastic track record on this route. At one point it was the most profitable train in the country.
> -Empire Builder: There is a more direct route between Minot and Fargo and historically that was the route of the Empire Builder while the Western Star went to Grand Forks. The line to Grand Forks I believe has less traffic which makes it more appealing. I actually don't have a good answer on this one.
> -Florida East Coast: One great reason to bypass this route Walt Disney World. Such a great traffic driver for the Florida Trains. The Seaboard and Atlantic Coastline worked hard to turn Florida into an all season destination in the 1940s and 50s, and Disney delivered that in the 1970s. A large ridership generator.
> -Silver Star in the Carolinas: Mostly because Columbia and Raleigh deserve to have service as state capitols, and they both historically had great service between Florida and New York on that route. Had the Norlina Sub not been ripped up in North Carolina the route would be substantially shorter than it is today. One day they claim they will reopen it, I will believe it when I see it.
> -Southwest Chief: Part of the reason they don't take the Southern Transcon is because that is a super busy stretch of railroad. That and it doesn't have that many population centers along it's route aside from Amarillo. The current route has Albuquerque and in Santa Fe days had a train connection to Denver from LAJ. The route via Raton Pass has always been the passenger route historically, and it will likely remain that.
> -Texas Eagle: This train really isn't that indirect in my opinion. Of course the original Texas Eagle actually split into sections to service San Antonio, Houston, and El Paso when the Missouri Pacific ran it. This train also serves a unique political motive as well because it adds Arkansas into the network.





Metra Electric Rider said:


> I'm going to add my worthless answers to Seaboards.
> 
> 1. Coast Starlight: also because Tehachapi (sp) is overcrowded by freight - or claimed to be.
> 2. FEC quit passenger service before A-Day and didn't want Amtrak (and now has BrightVirgin trains).
> 3. Empire Building: the logic I hear is no air service or nearby expressways to the route it serves. I think part of the other routes have been downgraded or there was no support earlier and the route is stuck, though I remember something about a reroute being offered which would have gone through one of the bigger towns on the route, something to do with Devil's Lake (not the state park in Wisconsin) flooding.


I agree that most of the routes make sense; I was not trying to argue that the trains should be rerouted. The history is very interesting though!


----------



## Seaboard92

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing



Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


----------



## Willbridge

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Given that a reroute is not likely either, I think we should push for either a connecting train or thru cars on such a route rather than rerouting the entire train. Amtrak already struggles to compete with driving when it comes to driving time so I'm not eager to add multiple hours to the route when Chicago would still generate significantly more traffic than St. Louis and a thruway connection to STL is already available.
> 
> This topic has me wondering how many routes don't take the shortest route between endpoints. Come to think of it, there are at least 8 LD routes that take longer routes than necessary. Below are the ones I can think of along with a faster alternative route.
> -California Zephyr (UP across Wyoming)
> -Cardinal (LSL Route)
> -Coast Starlight (via Central Valley)
> -Empire Builder (bypass Grand Forks)
> -Silver Meteor (FEC)
> -Silver Star (FEC, A-Line through Carolinas)
> -Southwest Chief (Southern Transcon via Texas Panhandle)
> -Texas Eagle (via KC and OKC)
> 
> Many of them take the longer routes in order to serve major cities, such as the CZ, CS, and SS, which makes sense especially considering how few passengers ride end to end. It would be nice if the system was large enough for more of a variety in LD routes, but I don't forsee it in the near future. I don't know how track conditions have changed, but the 1969 schedule for the City of San Francisco was a full 9 hours faster than the current CZ.


The Southern Transcon route _San Francisco Chief _was just about the same running time between Newton and Belen as the current _Southwest Chief, _if ABQ is bypassed.


----------



## railiner

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


Bravo Zulu! I can spend hours pouring over your work of art....thanks so much for taking the time to share it with us...


----------



## Willbridge

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


That is great! I was glad to see the Valley & Siletz listed. Not only is it gone, but the terminal city of Valsetz is gone, too.


----------



## jiml

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


Now there's several hours of entertainment!


----------



## Barb Stout

Metra Electric Rider said:


> 3. Empire Building: the logic I hear is no air service or nearby expressways to the route it serves. I think part of the other routes have been downgraded or there was no support earlier and the route is stuck, though I remember something about a reroute being offered which would have gone through one of the bigger towns on the route, something to do with Devil's Lake (not the state park in Wisconsin) flooding.


 With respect to why Grand Forks, I would guess it's because it's a major population center for ND and the state university is there. If one took a diagonal between Fargo and Minot, there wouldn't be very many population centers. It certainly is not because there aren't expressways as there is an interstate that goes through Grand Forks to Fargo to Sioux Falls, SD and beyond. I would be extremely surprised if it's because there is no air service as it is a "major city" for ND, BUT there was a time when Bismarck, the capital of ND, had only 1 major airline serving it and that was I believe once a day. I think that was in the '80s and/or '90s. So it's possible/probably that Grand Forks was in those same straits. Plus airfare in those days to ND was expensive. I remember flying from Phoenix to Jacksonville FL for $200, but always having to pay $600-800 for a trip from Phoenix to Bismarck.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Thanks that w,orked a treat!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Given that a reroute is not likely either, I think we should push for either a connecting train or thru cars on such a route rather than rerouting the entire train. Amtrak already struggles to compete with driving when it comes to driving time so I'm not eager to add multiple hours to the route when Chicago would still generate significantly more traffic than St. Louis and a thruway connection to STL is already available.
> 
> This topic has me wondering how many routes don't take the shortest route between endpoints. Come to think of it, there are at least 8 LD routes that take longer routes than necessary. Below are the ones I can think of along with a faster alternative route.
> -California Zephyr (UP across Wyoming)
> -Cardinal (LSL Route)
> -Coast Starlight (via Central Valley)
> -Empire Builder (bypass Grand Forks)
> -Silver Meteor (FEC)
> -Silver Star (FEC, A-Line through Carolinas)
> -Southwest Chief (Southern Transcon via Texas Panhandle)
> -Texas Eagle (via KC and OKC)
> 
> Many of them take the longer routes in order to serve major cities, such as the CZ, CS, and SS, which makes sense especially considering how few passengers ride end to end. It would be nice if the system was large enough for more of a variety in LD routes, but I don't forsee it in the near future. I don't know how track conditions have changed, but the 1969 schedule for the City of San Francisco was a full 9 hours faster than the current CZ.


Good point! But river flooding may be an issue with a routing through STL.


----------



## Seaboard92

railiner said:


> Bravo Zulu! I can spend hours pouring over your work of art....thanks so much for taking the time to share it with us...



You all are very welcome. I enjoyed making this piece of art. One of these days I intend to do the final official guide before Amtrak. I'm going to recharge my batteries first though. 



Willbridge said:


> That is great! I was glad to see the Valley & Siletz listed. Not only is it gone, but the terminal city of Valsetz is gone, too.



That was the best part of this little project finding about all of the American ghost towns that have disappeared along with the rails. I can't begin to say how hard parts of the midwest were because there is nothing left of the towns, or the rails. It was almost like guess work at that point. I would always start with making the station points, then I would drag the line afterwards. Basically turning it into an adult color the line puzzle. 



jiml said:


> Now there's several hours of entertainment!


And to make it was a year and half of entertainment but it was so enjoyable. It is amazing how much we have lost over the years.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


Simply amazing! Now can you invent a time machine that will take us back to 1952 so we can ride those [email protected]#$!!!!!


----------



## Dakota 400

Seaboard92 said:


> -Cardinal: This is due to West Virginia needing service, especially when they had a powerful senator who preserved this train. Originally the gateway for the C&O Route across the West Virginia was Cincinnati, OH and Amtrak didn't want to have an additional hub there. Which in retrospect is a really dumb move on their part because Cincinnati is home to a ton of high potential corridors CIN-CLE, CIN-DET, CIN-CHI, CIN-PGH, and CIN-STL



West Virginia had two very influential Senators serving in Congress at the same time: Robert Byrd and Jennings Randolph. Both Senators represented West Virginia very well with Senator Byrd being the more powerful of the two, I suppose. I recall Senator Randolph as being very supportive of passenger rail. During his service, I recall he was Chairman of the Senate Public Works Committee which, I think, might have dealt with Amtrak issues. 

I agree with your assessment of Amtrak not taking advantage of Cincinnati. As a former C&O passenger on a train from Cincinnati to Washington, the stretch of tracks soon after crossing the Ohio River into Kentucky were memorable for how really rough they were. Having dinner soon after leaving Cincinnati, I remember my Dining Car Steward placing a cup of soup in a saucer on the table. Half of that cup of soup immediately splashed out of the small bowl and filled the saucer. The Steward blamed the "rough ride" on the heavy coal trains that used that area. I have long wondered if that was really true.


----------



## railiner

Dakota 400 said:


> West Virginia had two very influential Senators serving in Congress at the same time: Robert Byrd and Jennings Randolph. Both Senators represented West Virginia very well with Senator Byrd being the more powerful of the two, I suppose. I recall Senator Randolph as being very supportive of passenger rail. During his service, I recall he was Chairman of the Senate Public Works Committee which, I think, might have dealt with Amtrak issues.


If you're going to mention West Virginia US Senators Byrd and Randolph, you might also mention Congressman Harley Staggers...you know of "Harley's Hornet" fame....








West Virginian (Amtrak train) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## zephyr17

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


I am super impressed!


----------



## toddinde

Barb Stout said:


> With respect to why Grand Forks, I would guess it's because it's a major population center for ND and the state university is there. If one took a diagonal between Fargo and Minot, there wouldn't be very many population centers. It certainly is not because there aren't expressways as there is an interstate that goes through Grand Forks to Fargo to Sioux Falls, SD and beyond. I would be extremely surprised if it's because there is no air service as it is a "major city" for ND, BUT there was a time when Bismarck, the capital of ND, had only 1 major airline serving it and that was I believe once a day. I think that was in the '80s and/or '90s. So it's possible/probably that Grand Forks was in those same straits. Plus airfare in those days to ND was expensive. I remember flying from Phoenix to Jacksonville FL for $200, but always having to pay $600-800 for a trip from Phoenix to Bismarck.


That was the original rationale when Amtrak began. Grand Forks is an important stop. As you said, the University of North Dakota is there. When the GN/BN Empire Builder took the shorter route, there were many trains serving Grand Forks (Winnipeg Limited, Red River, Western Star).


----------



## railiner

toddinde said:


> That was the original rationale when Amtrak began. Grand Forks is an important stop. As you said, the University of North Dakota is there. When the GN/BN Empire Builder took the shorter route, there were many trains serving Grand Forks (Winnipeg Limited, Red River, Western Star).


Grand Forks is also the closest stop to Winnipeg, since the trains to Winnipeg ended. Might encourage more Winnipeger's to drive over to connect with the EB, than if they had to go further...


----------



## NativeSon5859

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


Truly impressive! Thank you so much for sharing!


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> If you're going to mention West Virginia US Senators Byrd and Randolph, you might also mention Congressman Harley Staggers...you know of "Harley's Hornet" fame....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> West Virginian (Amtrak train) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org



I had forgotten about Rep. Staggers. There certainly were some "heavyweights" representing West Virginia at that time.


----------



## railiner

Dakota 400 said:


> I had forgotten about Rep. Staggers. There certainly were some "heavyweights" representing West Virginia at that time.


And it showed...think about the Blue Ridge, the Potomac Turbo, the Shenandoah, the Mountaineer, the Hilltopper, the Capitol Ltd, and of course, the Cardinal.
About the only train that crossed a panhandle of WV without stopping, was the National Limited...


----------



## JayPea

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.




Love this!!!!! In my area (Spokane area) so many of these places aren't even wide spots in the road any more. It's hard to imagine they ever had stations. Thank you so much for putting the time and effort into this!!!!


----------



## dlagrua

Nice project. This only goes to show how low the USA has sunk when it comes to passenger rail. Right in my home town of Neshanic Station there is an abandoned R.O.W. and station building. In speaking with some of the old timers they remember taking that train to Lambertville and riding the PRR along the Delaware river to Phillipsurg where they would pick up the Erie RR to Chicago. In the Southern direction you could pick up the NE Corridor at Trenton. Today all those RR lines are now gone and you can find this all over the country. As time goes on, maybe the need will see some of those lines brought back by Amtrak but I don't see this happening anytime soon.


----------



## Seaboard92

Thank you again for all the kind comments. It was a bit difficult to find the rail right of ways in places, but for the most part where a railroad has been leaves a scar on the land. So you can trace them with tree growth, and dead grass in a farmers field. It's difficult but it was oh so much fun.


----------



## basketmaker

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


WOW! Unbelievable! That is impressive. Also love the time period as it is my birth year. And growing up within a mile or so of your "namesake" SCL/SAL, FEC and ACL in Hialeah, FL. 

I just discovered that there was a stop about 1/2 mile from my home now on the BNSF Brush Sub at MM 527 at Barr. CO. 

I can see how my day is gonna be spent just perusing! Thank You for the amazing work.


----------



## Bob Dylan

In my Hometown of 5,000 in the 50s, there were 2 Railroad Stations ( Mopac and The Kary), and 6 Passenger Trains( one could ride to San Antonio, Houston,Longview and Ft Worth any make connections to the SP,the T&P, the Santa Fe and NDM ) and about 25 Freights a day came through town.

There were no Overpasses over the Tracks, so for Hours @ a time both sets of tracks were often blocked.( they were 2 blocks apart).

The City passed an ordinance that allowed the PD to write tickets for the RR that blocked Crossings off more than 20 minutes, but they were never Paid and the State Supreme Court ruled the Ordinance Unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution.


----------



## siberianmo

Exvalley said:


> Pardon me if this has been discussed before, but my search came up empty.
> 
> Two questions in regard to the City of New Orleans:
> 1) Why don't they route it through St. Louis? It seems like an awfully big city to miss by about 60 miles.
> 2) In the alternative, what about a routing like this: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Memphis - New Orleans. Neither Louisville nor Nashville are served by Amtrak, so it would be nice to add these cities to the route network.


I have wondered that very thought about CoNO into StL a few times - then after taking many trips aboard Lincoln Service (StL-Chi) it hit me: one could walk faster than the "speed" of the train between StL Gateway Station and into Granite City, IL. Terrible and truly something modern-day railroading should be embarrassed about. Whenever I traveled aboard CoNO, I began the trip in Chicago as opposed to the "shuttle" to Carbondale; ugh.

Anyway, just my 2-cents on an idea with merit until the practicality gets in the way.


----------



## siberianmo

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Given that a reroute is not likely either, I think we should push for either a connecting train or thru cars on such a route rather than rerouting the entire train. Amtrak already struggles to compete with driving when it comes to driving time so I'm not eager to add multiple hours to the route when Chicago would still generate significantly more traffic than St. Louis and a thruway connection to STL is already available.
> 
> This topic has me wondering how many routes don't take the shortest route between endpoints. Come to think of it, there are at least 8 LD routes that take longer routes than necessary. Below are the ones I can think of along with a faster alternative route.
> -California Zephyr (UP across Wyoming)
> -Cardinal (LSL Route)
> -Coast Starlight (via Central Valley)
> -Empire Builder (bypass Grand Forks)
> -Silver Meteor (FEC)
> -Silver Star (FEC, A-Line through Carolinas)
> -Southwest Chief (Southern Transcon via Texas Panhandle)
> -Texas Eagle (via KC and OKC)
> 
> Many of them take the longer routes in order to serve major cities, such as the CZ, CS, and SS, which makes sense especially considering how few passengers ride end to end. It would be nice if the system was large enough for more of a variety in LD routes, but I don't forsee it in the near future. I don't know how track conditions have changed, but the 1969 schedule for the City of San Francisco was a full 9 hours faster than the current CZ.



Lots to think about with this one . . . I will restrict my 2-cents to CZ and SWC: 

When I travel long-distance by train, "faster" has nothing to do with what I am looking for - I savor the moments aboard the trains along with the fantastic scenery aboard the CZ in Colorado and SWC in Northern/Central New Mexico. Changes to those routes would definitely change my bookings.

Having also traveled the other routes mentioned - I remain mute on those whilst enjoying the feedback!


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

siberianmo said:


> Lots to think about with this one . . . I will restrict my 2-cents to CZ and SWC:
> 
> When I travel long-distance by train, "faster" has nothing to do with what I am looking for - I savor the moments aboard the trains along with the fantastic scenery aboard the CZ in Colorado and SWC in Northern/Central New Mexico. Changes to those routes would definitely change my bookings.
> 
> Having also traveled the other routes mentioned - I remain mute on those whilst enjoying the feedback!


Again, I'm not advocating changing the routes of those trains. In fact, the fastest routings for the CZ and SWC would bypass Denver and Albuquerque, which would also drastically limit their use for transportation. Personally, I also ride trains for the scenery and experience. However, most passengers are riding to get somewhere and it's much easier to argue for the government funding a transportation service rather than a subsidized vacation. Even in my case, I usually want to spend some time at my destination and am limited in time off, so faster trains or even more importantly more frequencies would allow me to travel more frequently.


----------



## siberianmo

An interesting thread with equally interesting points of view.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

siberianmo said:


> Lots to think about with this one . . . I will restrict my 2-cents to CZ and SWC:
> 
> When I travel long-distance by train, "faster" has nothing to do with what I am looking for - I savor the moments aboard the trains along with the fantastic scenery aboard the CZ in Colorado and SWC in Northern/Central New Mexico. Changes to those routes would definitely change my bookings.
> 
> Having also traveled the other routes mentioned - I remain mute on those whilst enjoying the feedback!



Within reason though... the zephyr continues to move at mainline speeds the entire journey. Trains like the Canadian with several hours of layovers in Winnipeg and Jasper are too much of an extreme in my book.


----------



## siberianmo

crescent-zephyr said:


> Within reason though... the zephyr continues to move at mainline speeds the entire journey. Trains like the Canadian with several hours of layovers in Winnipeg and Jasper are too much of an extreme in my book.


My travels aboard the Canadian were before the ridiculous and unreasonable long layovers in Winnipeg. Jasper for refueling, etc. was tolerable - always enjoyed the town.

Cheers!


----------



## Willbridge

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Again, I'm not advocating changing the routes of those trains. In fact, the fastest routings for the CZ and SWC would bypass Denver and Albuquerque, which would also drastically limit their use for transportation. Personally, I also ride trains for the scenery and experience. However, most passengers are riding to get somewhere and it's much easier to argue for the government funding a transportation service rather than a subsidized vacation. Even in my case, I usually want to spend some time at my destination and am limited in time off, so faster trains or even more importantly more frequencies would allow me to travel more frequently.


Years ago when I collaborated with Amtrak on setting up the _Pioneer _there were people who wanted to revive the _City of Portland. _When we looked into that, besides having huge train-mile costs, it assumed very long intermediate trip lengths. The CZ route along with running the SEA>PDX>BOI train via SLC has a lot of intermediates that are strong, such as Denver>Lincoln and Denver>Glenwood Springs. Check the RPA statistic sheets for more info.

One of the peculiarities that Amtrak management Back East has rarely understood is that in the West there are a lot of people who ride for transportation AND for the scenery. The CZ and SWC and EB all fit that description, as do some of the California and Cascades Corridor trains. I began to think more about this after riding the re-allocated Superliners of the _Capitol Limited _and seeing attractive scenery out of the lounge windows, while the uninterested passengers played cards, drank cheap beer and enjoyed conversation.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Willbridge said:


> I began to think more about this after riding the re-allocated Superliners of the _Capitol Limited _and seeing attractive scenery out of the lounge windows, while the uninterested passengers played cards, drank cheap beer and enjoyed conversation.



The nerve of people!!!


----------



## CAQuail

Seaboard92 said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jkHbsLBcg4kh-n7s0DYXjNGnLdHz5J8l&usp=sharing
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me if this works. But if it does enjoy the fruits of my labor. On this link is the entire 1952 Official Guide of Railways on an interactive satellite map. If you click on a point on the map it'll tell you the train that stopped at what time, and on what route. Rail lines are color coded by the owning railroad, with the color coming from their paint scheme at the time. Now you can really study the history of what all we have lost.


Very Impressive!


----------



## dogbert617

NativeSon5859 said:


> I managed to try the IP Hoosier State (next to the Canadian it was the greatest train ride I'd ever been on), but I'm kicking myself for not giving the Pullman Rail Journeys a shot when it ran on the back of the CONO.



It kills me that I never got to try riding the Iowa Pacific Hoosier State.  Also it's weird I never realized Pullman Rail Journeys briefly operated a car, on the rear of the CONO train. Was that also an Iowa Pacific operation years ago?


----------



## railbuck

dogbert617 said:


> It kills me that I never got to try riding the Iowa Pacific Hoosier State.  Also it's weird I never realized Pullman Rail Journeys briefly operated a car, on the rear of the CONO train. Was that also an Iowa Pacific operation years ago?


Pullman Rail Journeys on the CONO was in the 2014-2015 time frame, IIRC.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

railbuck said:


> Pullman Rail Journeys on the CONO was in the 2014-2015 time frame, IIRC.



2012-2015. I regret not riding it more but, like the Pacific Parlour Car, I’m so glad I got to experience it while I could!


----------



## MARC Rider

jloewen said:


> Right about then, the Metroliner had debuted, and publicists claimed it would eventually do 110-115 MPH. (It never did, though.) Gasp!



The Metroliner? Yes it did go 110 mph. I took a joyride on it back when I was a railgeek teenager around 1969-1970, and the engineer let me look over his shoulder while we were running between Philadelphia and Wilmington and I clearly saw the speedometer read 110 mph. The later edition, locomotive hauled Metroliners definitely went faster, up to 125 mph at least, but then, so did the Northeast Direct trains.


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> The Metroliner? Yes it did go 110 mph. I took a joyride on it back when I was a railgeek teenager around 1969-1970, and the engineer let me look over his shoulder while we were running between Philadelphia and Wilmington and I clearly saw the speedometer read 110 mph. The later edition, locomotive hauled Metroliners definitely went faster, up to 125 mph at least, but then, so did the Northeast Direct trains.


Correct Joe, I used to ride Metroliners often between WAS and NYP and we generally " "hauled ass" up the NEC.


----------



## Larry H.

crescent-zephyr said:


> The nerve of people!!!
> 
> View attachment 18172
> View attachment 18173


These were the days when traveling by rail meant a new and exciting adventure for each named train.. Locals perhaps not, but long distance was geared to a visual experience of the interior as well as the outside scenery. The Empire builder with all its western and indian motif's was a great experience and one of the best I would say.


----------



## Larry H.

Bob Dylan said:


> Correct Joe, I used to ride Metroliners often between WAS and NYP and we generally " "hauled ass" up the NEC.


It was said that the average speed for the City of New Orleans and the Panama Limited was 100 miles per hour including the stops. I remember coming home from New Orleans on it and the sparks were flying off the rails on curves due to the high speed. All that ended when a few miles from where I am now the City left the rails due to a error on maintenance caused a wheel on one of the engines to drag which at very high speed derailed the train toppling them end over end in some cases and all over the road bed. 11 were killed and many injured. I still have the newspaper articles about it here. One person was never identified and is buried in Salem I believe as and unknown John Doe. This was when Amtrak first was running the trains and after that they started the 79 mile per hour limits on speed in much of the country.


----------



## Larry H.

Larry H. said:


> It was said that the average speed for the City of New Orleans and the Panama Limited was 100 miles per hour including the stops. I remember coming home from New Orleans on it and the sparks were flying off the rails on curves due to the high speed. All that ended when a few miles from where I am now the City left the rails due to a error on maintenance caused a wheel on one of the engines to drag which at very high speed derailed the train toppling them end over end in some cases and all over the road bed. 11 were killed and many injured. I still have the newspaper articles about it here. One person was never identified and is buried in Salem I believe as and unknown John Doe.





Exvalley said:


> Pardon me if this has been discussed before, but my search came up empty.
> 
> Two questions in regard to the City of New Orleans:
> 1) Why don't they route it through St. Louis? It seems like an awfully big city to miss by about 60 miles.
> 2) In the alternative, what about a routing like this: Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Memphis - New Orleans. Neither Louisville nor Nashville are served by Amtrak, so it would be nice to add these cities to the route network.



They passenger loads in Champaign and Carbondale are huge during colleges being open, that might be one reason to keep it here. But your right the passenger loads from ST.Louis would surly help. For a while they ran a daily connecting train from St. Louis to Carbondale of one car. At one time they pulled a coach and pullman car into St. Louis from the Panama Limited. But that ended about 30 years ago by now.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Larry H. said:


> These were the days when traveling by rail meant a new and exciting adventure for each named train.. Locals perhaps not, but long distance was geared to a visual experience of the interior as well as the outside scenery. The Empire builder with all its western and indian motif's was a great experience and one of the best I would say.



This??? I guess if that’s what you’re into..


----------



## Night Ranger

Larry H. said:


> They passenger loads in Champaign and Carbondale are huge during colleges being open, that might be one reason to keep it here. But your right the passenger loads from ST.Louis would surly help. For a while they ran a daily connecting train from St. Louis to Carbondale of one car. At one time they pulled a coach and pullman car into St. Louis from the Panama Limited. But that ended about 30 years ago by now.


So if I took the City of New Orleans to Carbondale from New Orleans is there a connection of any sort to Saint Louis so that I could connect with the Missouri River Runner and then the Southwest Chief in Kansas City? Any advice/insight/wisdom will be appreciated.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Night Ranger said:


> So if I took the City of New Orleans to Carbondale from New Orleans is there a connection of any sort to Saint Louis so that I could connect with the Missouri River Runner and then the Southwest Chief in Kansas City? Any advice/insight/wisdom will be appreciated.



There is a thruway bus you can take. The “River Cities” train last operated in 1993 sadly.


----------



## railiner

Larry H. said:


> It was said that the average speed for the City of New Orleans and the Panama Limited was 100 miles per hour including the stops.


Not quite....as I posted this timetable link earlier...





The City of New Orleans - June, 1947 - Streamliner Schedules


June 1947 timetable for the City of New Orleans passenger train at Streamliner Schedules.



www.streamlinerschedules.com





Shows the average speed as just under 58 mph....the top speed was _up to_ 100 mph on certain cab signaled territory...

If it _averaged_ 100 mph, it would complete the entire trip in 9 and a half hours....


----------



## Night Ranger

crescent-zephyr said:


> There is a thruway bus you can take. The “River Cities” train last operated in 1993 sadly.


THANKS muchly for the information. We are planning a trip when/if the pandemic abates and allows us to go places again.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Night Ranger said:


> THANKS muchly for the information. We are planning a trip when/if the pandemic abates and allows us to go places again.



If it was me, I’d take the city into Chicago and catch the Chief or ride from Chicago to St. Louis and then to Kansas City if you wanted that route.


----------



## west point

StLouis to NOL is a large market that is not being served. Why not have thru cars from KansasCity - STL - Carbondale. Cross platform at Carbondale. However the KCY STL train would attach at Carbondale to CNO and travel to Fulton where it would go to Nashville and proceed as the proposed day train from Nashville to ATL where it would connect to the Crescent.
If traffic finally warrants then these two trains would exchange cars at Carbondale giving Nashville and ATL thru train cars to CHI. Also give thru cars NOL - JAN - MEM - STL - KCY. Of course the intermediate cities.


----------



## AM_ROAD

I rode it from Chicago to Memphis. It was the second leg of my train journey from Denver to Memphis. I must say an overnight train on Amtrak friendly CN is still a strong concept that still works today. Like most of these trains it would be more functional with regional/commuter rail that could support it. 

In general overnight sleepers to me are the most practical long distance trains to take. Probably why the Caledonian is the only sleeper train left in the UK.


----------



## WICT106

That happened during the 1980s and early 1990s, with the "River Cities" section that attached to the CNO. Southbound, the section attached in IL, northbound, the section separated and went to StL & K. C.


----------



## John Bredin

AM_ROAD said:


> I must say an overnight train on Amtrak friendly CN is still a strong concept that still works today.


Except CN isn't Amtrak-friendly anymore. CN opposition is limiting Illinois's in-the-works restoration of the _Blackhawk_ to Rockford only, as there are railroad choices east of Rockford (principally Union Pacific, ironically enough) but only CN west of there.


----------



## Willbridge

John Bredin said:


> Except CN isn't Amtrak-friendly anymore. CN opposition is limiting Illinois's in-the-works restoration of the _Blackhawk_ to Rockford only, as there are railroad choices east of Rockford (principally Union Pacific, ironically enough) but only CN west of there.



In the olden days the CN would have responded to the challenge. It said so...


----------



## railiner

John Bredin said:


> Except CN isn't Amtrak-friendly anymore. CN opposition is limiting Illinois's in-the-works restoration of the _Blackhawk_ to Rockford only, as there are railroad choices east of Rockford (principally Union Pacific, ironically enough) but only CN west of there.


If they really want a good route to (E)Dubuque, they could take 'Amtrak friendly' BNSF, via Oregon and Savanna, IL. Probably half the time it would take on the CN. But then they would have to miss Rockford, so not likely....


----------



## MisterUptempo

AM_ROAD said:


> I rode it from Chicago to Memphis. It was the second leg of my train journey from Denver to Memphis. I must say an overnight train on Amtrak friendly CN is still a strong concept that still works today. Like most of these trains it would be more functional with regional/commuter rail that could support it.
> 
> In general overnight sleepers to me are the most practical long distance trains to take. Probably why the Caledonian is the only sleeper train left in the UK.


_Almost _the only sleeper train left in the UK. Great Western Railway still runs the Night Riviera between London-Paddington and Cornwall. 
I must say, GWR did a great job on these sleeper cabins. Very modern. And the lounge looks very inviting. 

The route is only 300 miles or so, about the same distance between Chicago and St. Louis. It makes that run in 7.5 - 8 hours. I can see a train like this doing well on a CHI-MSP route. MNDOT suggests a daytime running time between CHI and MSP would be 7.5 hours. An overnight train could roll out of the station at 2330 and into the destination at 0700.

A relatively short overnight train like this could provide a great sleeper experience without needing to provide a dining car, or private bathrooms and showers onboard, helping to keep costs down without it appearing like costs are being kept down. A perfectly nice, light breakfast could be provided in the morning with a minimum amount of onboard effort. Hell, some professional types might be satisfied with a protein bar and a Red Bull.  There are already showers at Chicago Union; put a few in at St. Paul, providing sleeper passengers an opportunity to bathe before and/or after the trip.

As the YouTube video in this post mentioned, prices on the Night Riviera, if purchased early enough, start at $115.00pp. Anything close to that price on a CHI-MSP route should make it popular. 

The only problem I see is that a route like this only properly serves the two endpoints at a decent hour. Not sure how many takers you'll have boarding at Wisconsin Dells at 0300.


----------



## bms

MisterUptempo said:


> _Almost _the only sleeper train left in the UK. Great Western Railway still runs the Night Riviera between London-Paddington and Cornwall.
> I must say, GWR did a great job on these sleeper cabins. Very modern. And the lounge looks very inviting.
> 
> The route is only 300 miles or so, about the same distance between Chicago and St. Louis. It makes that run in 7.5 - 8 hours. I can see a train like this doing well on a CHI-MSP route. MNDOT suggests a daytime running time between CHI and MSP would be 7.5 hours. An overnight train could roll out of the station at 2330 and into the destination at 0700.
> 
> A relatively short overnight train like this could provide a great sleeper experience without needing to provide a dining car, or private bathrooms and showers onboard, helping to keep costs down without it appearing like costs are being kept down. A perfectly nice, light breakfast could be provided in the morning with a minimum amount of onboard effort. Hell, some professional types might be satisfied with a protein bar and a Red Bull.  There are already showers at Chicago Union; put a few in at St. Paul, providing sleeper passengers an opportunity to bathe before and/or after the trip.
> 
> As the YouTube video in this post mentioned, prices on the Night Riviera, if purchased early enough, start at $115.00pp. Anything close to that price on a CHI-MSP route should make it popular.
> 
> The only problem I see is that a route like this only properly serves the two endpoints at a decent hour. Not sure how many takers you'll have boarding at Wisconsin Dells at 0300.



Looking at the 1978 timetable for the Chicago-Duluth _North Star_, #9 left Chicago at 10:30 p.m., left Milwaukee at 12:05 a.m., and arrived in St. Paul at 7:15 a.m. #10 left St. Paul at 10:15 p.m., arrived in Milwaukee at 5:35 a.m., and arrived in Chicago at 7:10 a.m. That predates me so I'm not sure how well it kept to that timetable.


----------



## Eric S

bms said:


> Looking at the 1978 timetable for the Chicago-Duluth _North Star_, #9 left Chicago at 10:30 p.m., left Milwaukee at 12:05 a.m., and arrived in St. Paul at 7:15 a.m. #10 left St. Paul at 10:15 p.m., arrived in Milwaukee at 5:35 a.m., and arrived in Chicago at 7:10 a.m. That predates me so I'm not sure how well it kept to that timetable.


Yeah, Milwaukee is close enough to Chicago that travel times for Milwaukee-originating passengers wouldn't be horrible, using that schedule. North/west-bound, it essentially provides a midnight train to St. Paul. South/east-bound, it provides an early-morning train to Chicago, potentially opening up connections to morning trains from Chicago that are otherwise unavailable.

I've always been curious about the idea of a Chicago-based overnight train network. It seems easy enough to sort out Chicago departure times, as there should be plenty of platform availability in the 10pm-midnight timeframe. But I've never quite figured out the best approach to take for Chicago arrival times, as platform availability is much scarcer in the morning rush period.


----------



## Thunder

Centralia for the St Louis connection? Odd , I was told DuQuoin by old heads


----------



## railiner

Thunder said:


> Centralia for the St Louis connection? Odd , I was told DuQuoin by old heads


Prior to Amtrak, Illinois Central trains used their own rails for St. Louis section's joining their mainline at DuQuoin. When the Amtrak River Cities started later on, it used Southern Railway from St. Louis to Centralia to connect to the IC main. Later yet, the River Cities continued down to Carbondale from Centralia, and at that point combined with the City of New Orleans....


----------



## Thunder

They must be getting senile 

I must admit, I do get a kick out of folks wanting to re route trains to take care of one market and totally ignoring the original route.

you take the City off the North end and you may as well take it off the south end. CN would be thrilled then.

Now a St Louis Memphis connection would be cool. I’d run the old Frisco in a heart beat. Then we can do KC Memphis seeings everyone wants to go to Memphis


----------



## railiner

Thunder said:


> I must admit, I do get a kick out of folks wanting to re route trains to take care of one market and totally ignoring the original route


Sometimes, track conditions mandate the choice....


----------



## Thunder

Track conditions? The premise was the missing of St Louis by the City.

taking a train off of its heritage route to service one market that is served well , just to try to get a connection to Memphis from St Louis? Yeah no.

havent had a train pulled off a route due to track conditions in such a manner since the Riley was dropped.


----------



## railiner

Thunder said:


> Track conditions? The premise was the missing of St Louis by the City.
> 
> taking a train off of its heritage route to service one market that is served well , just to try to get a connection to Memphis from St Louis? Yeah no.
> 
> havent had a train pulled off a route due to track conditions in such a manner since the Riley was dropped.


We are talking about different things...I thought you wondered why Amtrak used the Southern Ry when they started up the River Cities train...I wasn't talking about rerouting the CONO....


----------



## Thunder

Oh no, I was going with the original post

I wouldn’t mind doing a rare mileage run over the Southern.
I did get my C&EI fix, along with Cheap and No Where rare mileage.
I would love a Frisco KC to Memphis run though.....

now what were we discussing


----------



## railiner

[QUOTE="Thunder, post: 858782, member: 28845"

I wouldn’t mind doing a rare mileage run over the Southern.
I did get my C&EI fix, along with Cheap and No Where rare mileage.
I would love a Frisco KC to Memphis run though.....

now what were we discussing
[/QUOTE]

Why stop at Memphis? I would want to go all the way to Pensacola....
Getting back to the CONO, I would love to ride the freight only Edgewood Cutoff, if the train ever detoured that way...


----------



## Thunder

I can’t remember if those tracks are still there! But let’s go and find out


----------

