# First Class Meals



## denmarks (Feb 17, 2017)

Are beverages, desserts, and sides included in the free first class meal in the dining room?


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## Ryan (Feb 17, 2017)

Yes.


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## BCL (Feb 17, 2017)

There is no "first class" on Amtrak long-distance trains. Do you mean the meal included with a sleeper ticket? That would be served in the dining car.


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## jebr (Feb 17, 2017)

Note, however, that alcoholic beverages are not included with a sleeper ticket. Those must be purchased separately.


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## Ryan (Feb 17, 2017)

BCL said:


> There is no "first class" on Amtrak long-distance trains. Do you mean the meal included with a sleeper ticket? That would be served in the dining car.


It's obvious that's what he's asking about. The pedantry about terminology is uncalled for.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 17, 2017)

When in the the Sleeping Car (Which some cars still have the "First Class" sign on or near the door), all meals are included in the Dining Car, with the exception of alcoholic beverages and tipping. Anything purchased at the Cafe is not included (exception being the Star and Cardinal where Sleeper meals are served in the Cafe).


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## PRR 60 (Feb 17, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> When in the the Sleeping Car (Which some cars still have the "First Class" sign on or near the door), all meals are included in the Dining Car, with the exception of alcoholic beverages and tipping. Anything purchased at the Cafe is not included (exception being the Star and Cardinal where Sleeper meals are served in the Cafe).


Meals in the cafe car are not included for Silver Star sleeper passengers.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 17, 2017)

My mistake, was thinking eating in the cafe car since no DC, like Cardinal, but forgot that Star passengers get lower Sleeper fare instead of meals.


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## the_traveler (Feb 17, 2017)

Included meals in the Dining Car (but none in the café) include:

For breakfast - any entree, side of meat (if desired), juice and beverage

For lunch - any entree, beverage and desert (if desired)

For dinner - any entree, side salad (if desired), beverage and desert (if desired)

Alcoholic beverages and tipping are additional.


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## denmarks (Feb 17, 2017)

the_traveler said:


> Included meals in the Dining Car (but none in the café) include:
> 
> For breakfast - any entree, side of meat (if desired), juice and beverage
> 
> ...


Thank you. That is exactly what I was looking for.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 17, 2017)

Extra tip... If you ask for water, they will give you a cup of water. If you ask for a bottled water, you'll get that. It seems obvious but I've been seated with fellow sleeper passengers and ordered a bottled water and others got a cup and when they asked the server said "well you didn't ask for bottled water."


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## me_little_me (Feb 17, 2017)

the_traveler said:


> Included meals in the Dining Car (but none in the café) include:
> 
> For breakfast - any entree, side of meat (if desired), juice and beverage
> 
> ...


Desert is only offered on the Sunset Limited & SWC but all the meals include dessert! :giggle:


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## SarahZ (Feb 17, 2017)

Extra tip: you can get a "refill", which is actually a second, full beverage.

They bring the soda in a can, so I drink one during lunch and then ask for a "refill" to bring back to my room.


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## BCL (Feb 17, 2017)

Ryan said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > There is no "first class" on Amtrak long-distance trains. Do you mean the meal included with a sleeper ticket? That would be served in the dining car.
> ...


It implies that there's a first class meal. There's nothing served in the dining car that can't be purchased by a coach or business class passenger.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 17, 2017)

Do remember to leave a gratuity. If one returns to the Dining Car again during a trip, one will be remembered.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 17, 2017)

me_little_me said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Included meals in the Dining Car (but none in the café) include:
> ...


Desert is also offered on the California Zephyr, along with dessert.


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## dlagrua (Feb 17, 2017)

I don't know what train you will be traveling on but some Amtrak routes serve good food and in some cases some fresh prepared food, On other routes you will get a reheated convection oven meal served in the cafe car. Last August (PHL-DEN DEN-PHL) we rode the Cardinal, California Zephyr and Capitol Limited. The Cardinal serves reheated food. It is acceptable, better than fast food, but not as good as that served on the CL and CZ. In the past few years the dining car menu's have been cut down some but its still not bad. Go to Amtrak.com and view the sample menu for your route.


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## KmH (Feb 17, 2017)

zephyr17 said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


Desert too on the Texas Eagle - 3 days a week.

The train that runs bewteen LAX and SAS is part Sunset Limited and part Texas Eagle.


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## StriderGDM (Feb 17, 2017)

Note, you do have to ASK for the salad. It's free, but not given unless asked for.


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## KmH (Feb 17, 2017)

Low hanging curve ball for ya Ryan.

The meals/beverages/sides aren't free, they are pre-paid, as part of the sleeper berth fare.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 17, 2017)

Every train I have been on with a sleeper has offered dessert and had salads available on demand. As for tipping, yes the servers remember, often I received extras, like a coffee in the morning to take with me when I was going to the SSL before returning to the sleeper. Most servers appreciated the tips, unfortunately, like some restaurants, some expect the tip without doing anything.


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## Bierboy (Feb 18, 2017)

Dakota 400 said:


> Do remember to leave a gratuity. If one returns to the Dining Car again during a trip, one will be remembered.


I'm amazed and dumbfounded at the number of people I've seen leave no tip dining on Amtrak. Even lousy service usually prompts a very small "tip".


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## AG1 (Feb 18, 2017)

Bierboy said:


> I'm amazed and dumbfounded at the number of people I've seen leave no tip dining on Amtrak. Even lousy service usually prompts a very small "tip".


Why would you support* "lousy service" *with any tip ? Amtrak website says tipping is not required. Tipping is 100% voluntary in the USA. You can tip all you want, but don't try to impose your personal habits on others .


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## dlagrua (Feb 18, 2017)

Q: Why would you support "lousy service" with any tip ? Amtrak website says tipping is not required. Tipping is 100% voluntary in the USA. You can tip all you want, but don't try to impose your personal habits on others .

A: Working a dining car is not as easy as some believe.Besides having to juggle a tray or hands full of food on a moving train, waiters/table servers/FSA's have to work multiple meal services up to three times daily.. At times they are understaffed, overloaded and always dependent on how the kitchen crew gets the meals out. We tip more or less dependent on the level of courtesy, but we always tip. It bothers us when we see people leaving nothing on the table. Those people are just stingy cheapskates. You pay hundreds of dollars for a sleeper and can part with a few bucks? How could anyone be that cheap?


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## PVD (Feb 18, 2017)

I am extremely pro gratuity and have sharply criticized people at times for what I have seem as trying to find an excuse not to tip. I would however, probably substitute the word rude for lousy. Many times, what is perceived as lousy service is not the fault of the staff, they may be shoveling against the tide and doing their best. Rude is never acceptable,


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 18, 2017)

On a multi day trip I will always tip the first meal or 2, even if lousy / rude service. The servers remember you and a tip can give you better service on future meals.

After 2 or 3 meals if the service is still lousy / rude... I may stop tipping.

I think most of us know what lousy / rude on Amtrak is. If the food is slow coming up, or the LSA gets distracted on the other side and forgets to cash out my glass of wine... Those are totally understandable on a short staffed train. It's the rude service, totally ignoring tables after the entree has been plopped down, and totally unprofessional behavior that I won't continue to reward.


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## the_traveler (Feb 18, 2017)

The "kitchen crew" consists of:

A chef

The only person downstairs is 1 chef! So consider this when the meals come out slow.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 18, 2017)

the_traveler said:


> The "kitchen crew" consists of:
> 
> A chef
> 
> The only person downstairs is 1 chef! So consider this when the meals come out slow.


As in all things on Amtrak... That varies from train to train. My recent ride on the Sunset Limited a few weeks ago, there were 2 "chefs" in the kitchen, 1 LSA, 1 Server.


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## dlagrua (Feb 19, 2017)

the_traveler said:


> The "kitchen crew" consists of:
> 
> A chef
> 
> The only person downstairs is 1 chef! So consider this when the meals come out slow.


Geeze. I sure hope that it hasn't come to that. Just a few years back on the EB when we stopped at Tacoma for the long break, three people came out of the kitchen. One actually took the hose and filled up the diner water tank. They were wearing white kitchen scrubs so it certainly seemed as though there was more than one down there. My assumption was one chef, one line chef and a assistant/dishwasher/cleanup person.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 19, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > The "kitchen crew" consists of:
> ...


Very interesting considering that the EB has never gone through Tacoma. Ever.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 19, 2017)

Must have been the CS. Generally, there is one cook down stairs, except during the busy season like on the CS when there are 3 Sleepers and 4 Coaches, I have seen a helper. I have also seen a second person who is being trained.

Tipping: I have tipped always on Amtrak. There have been times when I have told by others, why am I tipping, everything is included. Others seem to think that those working on Amtrak are making mega dollars per hour, therefore do not deserve tips. Now, I have had first time riders ask me when we have been seated together about tipping because they are confused because there is not ticket with pricing to figure your tip. I understand their confusion until they understand the system. These people many times end up not tipping thinking with no ticket the amount is zero.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 19, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> Q: Why would you support "lousy service" with any tip ? Amtrak website says tipping is not required. Tipping is 100% voluntary in the USA. You can tip all you want, but don't try to impose your personal habits on others .
> 
> A: Working a dining car is not as easy as some believe.Besides having to juggle a tray or hands full of food on a moving train, waiters/table servers/FSA's have to work multiple meal services up to three times daily.. At times they are understaffed, overloaded and always dependent on how the kitchen crew gets the meals out. We tip more or less dependent on the level of courtesy, but we always tip. It bothers us when we see people leaving nothing on the table. Those people are just stingy cheapskates. You pay hundreds of dollars for a sleeper and can part with a few bucks? How could anyone be that cheap?


 diagrua's post reflects what I think. The men and women who serve us on Amtrak are not doing so for their health. In the Dining Cars and SSL Cars on which I have traveled, I have encountered men and women who try to do the best that they can do to provide me the best possible service that they can do. (Sleeping Car Attendants' service vary from excellent to OK, however. But, in my opinion, even the "OK" SCAs deserve some additional recognition at the end of my journey on their train.)

I do think that first time Sleeper Car travelers might not understand that the service that they receive in their train's Dining Car, and maybe even in the Sleeper, if so booked, ought to be rewarded with a gratuity to the personnel that serves them. I am not sure how such information ought to be communicated to them, however.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 19, 2017)

The people who work on Amtrak trains, work long hours, many times 6AM to midnight with a small break between meals in the DC or SSL. The only time I don't tip the SCA is when they are AWOL until tip time. Then I get their name and report them to Customer Service, though on one occasion I had an OBS manager traveling incognito most of the trip, taking notes of what passengers were saying in the DC and SSL. Our AWOL SCA must have been shocked when he learned who this person was. .


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 19, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> Tipping: I have tipped always on Amtrak. There have been times when I have told by others, why am I tipping, everything is included. Others seem to think that those working on Amtrak are making mega dollars per hour, therefore do not deserve tips.


Compared to most tipping positions in the US Amtrak staff are paid a much higher base salary, enjoy much stronger employment protections, and receive truly exceptional benefits. Among tipping professions in the US Amtrak staff are probably at or near the top 1%. Unlike most tipping positions in the US, Amtrak staff do not need to rely on tips to cover basic needs and make simple ends meet. This isn't an assumption on my part; this is what I've heard directly from Amtrak staff.



Lonestar648 said:


> The people who work on Amtrak trains, work long hours, many times 6AM to midnight with a small break between meals in the DC or SSL.


I'm on call 24/7, even when I'm on vacation twelve times zones away on the other side of the planet I have to be reachable by phone. If someone important can't access something critical I have to take the call and help resolve the issue no matter the date or time or other circumstances. Compared to Amtrak staff my retirement benefits and employment protections are minimal, but I don't expect (and would not accept) any tips in return for a fundamental aspect of my chosen profession.


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## PVD (Feb 19, 2017)

There are jobs where tipping is traditional in this country there are jobs where it isn't. Income is not the only criteria.


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## tricia (Feb 20, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > Tipping: I have tipped always on Amtrak. There have been times when I have told by others, why am I tipping, everything is included. Others seem to think that those working on Amtrak are making mega dollars per hour, therefore do not deserve tips.
> ...


I'm with DA on this. I'm a farmer, and thus not overly impressed with how difficult the working conditions are on a train. Lots of folks work in difficult condtions, and neither expect nor accept tips for that.

I do tip Amtrak staff who provide exceptional service; I don't tip (as I do in restaurants) simply to make up what's lacking in a sub-minimum wage.


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## JayPea (Feb 20, 2017)

I tip according to the level of service and to show appreciation for that service. Whether I choose to tip (or not) is at my discretion and my discretion only and should be considered my business and my business only.


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## jis (Feb 20, 2017)

JayPea said:


> I tip according to the level of service and to show appreciation for that service. Whether I choose to tip (or not) is at my discretion and my discretion only and should be considered my business and my business only.


I agree. I find the, what feels like, attempted indoctrination towards tipping no matter what, that goes on at AU somewhat distasteful. But such is life.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 20, 2017)

It's nowhere near as distasteful as the food whose service we are discussing.


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## niemi24s (Feb 20, 2017)

Wish some kind soul would post links to the other 4 or 5 recent threads dealing with gratuities. Same blather repeated every 6 months or so begins to wear thin after a while - but that's just me. Carry on if you must.


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## zepherdude (Feb 20, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> Wish some kind soul would post links to the other 4 or 5 recent threads dealing with gratuities. Same blather repeated every 6 months or so begins to wear thin after a while - but that's just me. Carry on if you must.


I totally agree with you! How many times I have read about lousy service.....


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## wallylegs (Feb 27, 2017)

It is extremely confusing for OS travellers, to tip or not to tip.

When on the SWC we asked our SCA what was the norm, and he explained to us that it was not necessary,

however if we very happy with the service, a few dollars would suffice. Steven was a great SCA.

So on that journey Dining Car staff were tipped according to our level of satisfaction

When on the EB, my level of satisfaction declined somewhat, so I was less forthcoming.

When on the CS , my level of satisfaction dissolved completely and I did not tip anyone

on that train at all. As I was alone on the last two journeys it just fell to me decide, I decided I wanted them to know

I was not happy with the service at all.


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## Ryan (Feb 27, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> Wish some kind soul would post links to the other 4 or 5 recent threads dealing with gratuities. Same blather repeated every 6 months or so begins to wear thin after a while - but that's just me. Carry on if you must.


It's a shame you have someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to read this blather.

Or maybe you exercise from free will and refrain from reading content you don't find worth your time?


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## niemi24s (Feb 27, 2017)

Ryan said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> > Wish some kind soul would post links to the other 4 or 5 recent threads dealing with gratuities. Same blather repeated every 6 months or so begins to wear thin after a while - but that's just me. Carry on if you must.
> ...


<Yawn!>


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## VentureForth (Mar 1, 2017)

Ryan said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > There is no "first class" on Amtrak long-distance trains. Do you mean the meal included with a sleeper ticket? That would be served in the dining car.
> ...


Not it wasn't. There's first class on Acela with true first class meals. And there is sleeper class on the long distance trains which used to be called first class.
So the question, being vague, called for a bit of pedantry - though the answers are similar with the exception of the inclusion of adult beverages.


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## Ryan (Mar 1, 2017)

Acela doesn't have anything that can be called a "dining room". Was clear with a little bit of interpretation that he was talking about a LD train.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 1, 2017)

Technically Amtrak dining car menus still refer to "first class meal packages" in the fine print about alcoholic beverages, although I would presume that the reference is little more than an anachronism at this point.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Mar 1, 2017)

Ryan said:


> Acela doesn't have anything that can be called a "dining room". Was clear with a little bit of interpretation that he was talking about a LD train.


+1

Plus, I got a bit of a chuckle with the passing thought that any meal served by Amtrak, would be called a "First Class Meal" by any sane person. :giggle:


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 2, 2017)

Back when Sleepers were called First Class, the Amtrak Meals were totally different. I remember meals like the 2" thick juicy pork chop dinner, or the thick Prime Rib.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Mar 2, 2017)

BCL said:


> There is no "first class" on Amtrak long-distance trains. Do you mean the meal included with a sleeper ticket? That would be served in the dining car.


Thank you for the clarification. I thought perhaps there was a class of service with which I was unfamiliar.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Mar 3, 2017)

Is it possible to leave personal attacks out of the responses?


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## Asher (Mar 5, 2017)

crabby_appleton1950 said:


> Is it possible to leave personal attacks out of the responses?


If I may leave a "tip" here, please don't hijack the previous subject.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Mar 5, 2017)

anumberone said:


> crabby_appleton1950 said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible to leave personal attacks out of the responses?
> ...


I'm referring to personal attacks in THIS thread.


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## Ryan (Mar 5, 2017)

As always has been, and ever shall be, if you think someone's posts are appropriate, you'll have much better luck contacting the staff than derailing the thread.


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## Eric S (Mar 5, 2017)

Might want to stick to contacting staff for posts you think are *in*appropriate, though...


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## Rover (Mar 13, 2017)

I suggest a "sticky" for the combined tipping thread. Some people just don't know how to search.


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## Skyline (Mar 19, 2017)

Ryan said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > There is no "first class" on Amtrak long-distance trains. Do you mean the meal included with a sleeper ticket? That would be served in the dining car.
> ...


When I read it initially, I thought perhaps the question was dealing with the _*QUALITY *_of the food. As in: the food on trains #1 and #2 -- The Canadian -- are truly first class dining, but is Amtrak's diner food comparable?


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## Maverickstation (Mar 19, 2017)

Skyline said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > BCL said:
> ...


No, The Canadian is different operation all together, that train has a true first class dining car, year round, for the Sleeper Class Plus and Prestige Class passengers.

The menu is pretty upscale, and the choices are far from run of the mill.

Coach class has a cafe menu, on a year round basis, similar to what is offered on the Silver Star, and during the summer peak there is a coach class diner with food cooked on board.

The Ocean serves food from local caterers, but it is still re-heated, and plated on board in a restaurant manner.

Ken


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## Triley (Mar 19, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


And if everyone was willing to pay the fares asked on The Canadian, I'm sure Amtrak would put that quality of food in our diners.

That being said, I'm even looking forward to dinner and breakfast on The Ocean next month.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 19, 2017)

The food itself on the Canadian is only a step above Amtrak full service diners in my opinion. What really sets it apart is the class. You never see employees sitting at the tables, tables filled with random odds and ends etc. And the way the steward comes around and recommends wines or drink specials just gives you the feeling of being in an upscale establishment.


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## ehbowen (Mar 19, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The food itself on the Canadian is only a step above Amtrak full service diners in my opinion. What really sets it apart is the class. You never see employees sitting at the tables, tables filled with random odds and ends etc. And the way the steward comes around and recommends wines or drink specials just gives you the feeling of being in an upscale establishment.


I've had some wonderful meals aboard Amtrak full service diners...perhaps not lately, but a grilled red snapper filet on the _Broadway Limited_ circa 1985 still stands out as the most memorable fish dinner I can recall. The Superliner diners, in particular, were (originally—they may have been downgraded during refits) designed to be the best-equipped kitchens ever placed on American rails. If they were properly staffed and supported (I'd love to see "mini-commissaries" located at major service stops at the middle of the 2-night trips), there's no limit as to the quality of meals they could turn out.

Of course, there is a problem. Satisfied and happy passengers would demand more sleeping (and coach) cars, and, in short order, more trains. I have no idea as to how we could possibly deal with that issue....


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 19, 2017)

Triley said:


> And if everyone was willing to pay the fares asked on The Canadian, I'm sure Amtrak would put that quality of food in our diners.


We're already paying much more than we did in the past. In many cases we're paying more than first class airfare and in some cases we're even paying similar costs to that of hiring a taxi or limo to drive us half way across the country. Here in this country Amtrak sleepers are among the most expensive means of travel outside of renting exotic supercars and private jets. Has Amtrak food quality improved several times to match our ever increasing fares? No. It has continued to drop in quality and selection even as the ticket cost has substantially increased over time. So far as I can tell there doesn't seem to be much correlation between cost and quality on Amtrak. The Silver Star situation makes it seem like Amtrak dining car staff and maintenance seem unbelievably expensive and inefficient. Almost to the point that it may never be possible to fix it without starting over again from scratch.


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## niemi24s (Mar 19, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> . . .the ticket cost has substantially increased over time.


Just how much_ has_ ticket cost increased over time? I've only got about 17 months of fare data, but a quick look at the EB and CL shows their fares went up about 2.2% during that period (or about 1.7% APR) for mid-bucket coach + roomette. Do you have anything more concrete than "substantial"?


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## Tennessee Traveler (Mar 19, 2017)

Having rode both Amtrak and Via Rail, I prefer the meals on the Amtrak trains. I most recently rode the Via Rail Ocean this past June and their food was nicely served in the dining car but it was reheated airline type first class meals. Choice was limited and comparable to what is now available on the City of New Orleans.

As for the cooked on board food on the Canadian, it's good if you like gourmet type food like duck, quail, lamb chops and instead of my favorite Angus burger on Amtrak, the Canadian serves Bison Burgers which taste a little weird on my taste buds. Yes, the tables are cloth covered and there is real china and a full dining car serving staff but the food is a little off my taste so give me eggs, grits, bacon; angus burgers, and steak and baked potatoes any day which I can get on Amtrak and I'm a happy camper.

As for comparing airline cost to Amtrak cost, I think it is only fair you also include the hotel costs for each night if you arrive somewhere two day earlier. For me staying in Hilton and Hyatt branded hotels that can easily be $200 per night and then there is two days of food to purchase also. In that light my $500 California Zephyr roomette Chicago to Emeryville is much less that first class airline fare.


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## keelhauled (Mar 19, 2017)

Why in the world would you assume one is required to spend two nights in a hotel at the destination as opposed to leaving two days later and not paying for two nights anywhere?


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## Tennessee Traveler (Mar 19, 2017)

keelhauled said:


> Why in the world would you assume one is required to spend two nights in a hotel at the destination as opposed to leaving two days later and not paying for two nights anywhere?


Because if I am on vacation, I would not stay home two days, I would stay two days longer at my destination. It's not that important enough to argue on my part. Just threw that out as a consideration since I travel only for leisure and I have to FLY to a city that has Amtrak service to board my vacation destination THE TRAIN.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 20, 2017)

When I was traveling for business every week, leaving Chicago in the evening or late afternoon and arrive the next morning, saved a hotel night because I would have had to travel almost the same time to fly. I arrived having showered, worked on my reports, had breakfast, and a team member picking me up at the station. Many times I was cheaper on Amtrak in a roomette than flying the night before, staying in a hotel.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 20, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > . . .the ticket cost has substantially increased over time.
> ...


Over a period of about eight years routine sleeper fares I was buying for simple transportation between my two most common city pairs more than doubled from a low of around $150 to just shy of $400 each way for the dates I traveled each year. As Amtrak amenities and service levels kept dropping and the schedule worsened I had a harder time accepting the ever increasing fares at reduced satisfaction. I never said the buckets increase two fold, I simply said the tickets available to me increased two fold. That could also be explained with fewer compartments being sold in the lower buckets relative to the number of tickets being sold in the higher buckets.

I still take Amtrak for the occasional joyride but these trips target the best segments of the best routes and I no longer ride Amtrak for basic transportation. Same with _The Canadian_ for that matter. For basic transportation at these price points I'd rather drive or fly first class for less money instead. I'm not sure how to convince you since it's just one person's experience but do keep in mind that there are dozens of threads where forum members remark on the sharply increasing sleeper fares. The only threads I've seen about sleeper prices falling to match the on board service levels in on the Silver Star, which could probably be handled by a refrigerated vending machine and a microwave at this point.



keelhauled said:


> Why in the world would you assume one is required to spend two nights in a hotel at the destination as opposed to leaving two days later and not paying for two nights anywhere?


 Thank you for pointing out the fallacy in his reasoning.



Lonestar648 said:


> When I was traveling for business every week, leaving Chicago in the evening or late afternoon and arrive the next morning, saved a hotel night because I would have had to travel almost the same time to fly. I arrived having showered, worked on my reports, had breakfast, and a team member picking me up at the station. Many times I was cheaper on Amtrak in a roomette than flying the night before, staying in a hotel.


I rarely travel for business but when I have there's never been an extraneous team member with nothing better to do than sit and wait for me at the train station. I can only imagine trying to explain why I should take a train that only travels three times a week at twice the cost to my boss. All the irrational whining in the world about hotel costs wouldn't save that conversation from going south in a hurry.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 20, 2017)

Believe it or not i was able to keep it even. My boss didn't care as long as I was within budget. As far as a team member, we didn't have the luxury of all 10 of us each having a rental car when we were on site. do the low man on totem pole had the the pick up duty since some people came in even after myself and they were flying. For a while four of us traveled by Amtrak rather than fly. we arrived home with our reports completed on the train. It is impossible to do much work on a plane being so cramped, and someone always reading what you had on your laptop. So the fliers had to do their reports when they got home. Now We moved ourselves to the Chicago area so we could be centrally located to hit our customers even though our company was located in Virginia.


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## Triley (Mar 20, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > And if everyone was willing to pay the fares asked on The Canadian, I'm sure Amtrak would put that quality of food in our diners.
> ...


Way to ignore what I said, and go off an another tangent. I was making the comparison between Amtrak and ViaRail (notably The Canadian) food quality, and the pricing, since The Canadian was already mentioned by someone else.

From Toronto to Vancouver the cheapest coach fare comes to almost $400USD. The cheapest upper berth is about $875USD. Cheapest cabin for one is about $1325USD. And just for ha has... In Prestige you are charged the full fare for a cabin for two, which comes to $6500USD (depending on the time of year). So even if there's two traveling together, it's $3250/each.

John Q. Public in the US travel from Miami to Seattle for less than those fares, even when in some higher fare buckets. (For reference, routing is always starting with the Meteor, usually connecting to Capitol Limited to the Empire Builder, though connections to the CZ then CS are also offered, some times for less.)

For those city pairs...Coach could be had for as low as $306. Cheapest roomette would be about $1167 if the stars aligned and the roomettes were all in low fare buckets. For a single person a bedroom could be $2425, or for two $2731. A savings of up to $3769 for two travelers, or up to $4075 for a single traveler, when compared to Prestige.

So now armed with hard facts, how many here would be willing to pay $4000 more for the service The Canadian offers in Prestige? Not many would be willing to do that on an even semi-regular (once a year) trip, I would venture to guess.

Returning to what you said now, before the thread is locked for veering way off topic...

Fares have gone up and food quality has gone down? Absolutely. Thank the pinch from the government to lower losses. Does anyone here (besides DA) think Amtrak genuinely enjoys cutting service?

Have fares gone up and food quality gone down on the airlines too? Maybe it's just a coincidence, but on the flights I travel, yes. It's not Amtrak leading this trend here.

How cheap and efficient do you expect maintenance to be on 70 year old cars? We already know the crew doesn't come cheap.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 20, 2017)

Triley said:


> So now armed with hard facts, how many here would be willing to pay $4000 more for the service The Canadian offers in Prestige? Not many would be willing to do that on an even semi-regular (once a year) trip, I would venture to guess.


The main thing that keeps me from riding The Canadian instead of Amtrak are the obnoxious customs and immigration people I have to pass through to get there. There's also the matter of a limited non-daily schedule that makes planning a bit more difficult, but I suffer from the same problem here on Amtrak as well. Based on what I'm reading in the news it's starting to sound like VIA may be the only long distance option in North America before long. At that point maybe The Canadian will have enough business to increase the frequency to daily again.



Triley said:


> Fares have gone up and food quality has gone down? Absolutely. Thank the pinch from the government to lower losses. Does anyone here (besides DA) think Amtrak genuinely enjoys cutting service?


Does anyone here think Amtrak has the staff, infrastructure, and willingness to provide freshly prepared first class food at higher prices? If so how do we explain that not even one single route has been blessed with this opportunity? When the Coast Starlight and Empire Builder quietly lost their "premium service" designation did the price of tickets fall to reflect the change? If not, why should we assume that increasing their fares further would bring premium service back again?



Triley said:


> Have fares gone up and food quality gone down on the airlines too? Maybe it's just a coincidence, but on the flights I travel, yes. It's not Amtrak leading this trend here.


Personally I think most airline food has always been crap. Fortunately flights are generally short and unlike train stations airports tend to have dozens of food service options that are better than anything you're likely to find on a plane or train. Accounting for inflation recent coach airfares have actually been among the cheapest I've ever seen. I'm too tall to fit into today's coach pitch but premium economy pitch is similar in price to what standard coach cost in years past.


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## RSG (Mar 20, 2017)

StriderGDM said:


> Note, you do have to ASK for the salad. It's free, but not given unless asked for.


I've found, at least in the past year, that is no longer the case. I don't know if it's an official change in OBS policy or just because the dining car staff got tired of people feeling shorted because they weren't automatically given a salad, but my last few trips I've always been asked if I would like a salad.


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...


On the surface that does indeed sound substantial. But such conclusions are misleading without knowing what the bucket levels were. F'rinstance, if $150 was low bucket and $400 was high bucket:

• the simple high bucket APR would be 100[(400 - 150) ÷ (150 X 8)] = 20.8% 100[(400/150)^1/8 - 1] = 13.0%

• next bucket down would be about $400 ÷ 1.25 = $320 for a simple APR of 100[(320 - 150) ÷ (150 X 8)] = 14.2% 100[(320/150)^1/8 - 1] = 9.9%

• next bucket down would be about $320 ÷ 1.25 = $256 for a simple APR of 100[(256 - 150) ÷ (150 X 8)] = 8.8% 100[(256/150)^1/8 - 1] = 6.9%

• next bucket down would be about $256 ÷ 1.25 = $205 for a simple APR of 100[(205 - 150) ÷ (150 X 8)] = 4.6% 100[(205/150)^1/8 - 1] = 4.0%

• next bucket down (low bucket) would be about $205 ÷ 1.25 = $164 for a simple APR of 100[(164 - 150) ÷ (150 X 8)] = 1.2% 100[(164/150)^1/8 - 1] = 1.1%

Q: Any recollection which bucket the $400 fare was?

P.S.: If you provide the specifics of that $400 trip I can figure out the bucket.


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## willem (Mar 20, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> Just how much_ has_ ticket cost increased over time? I've only got about 17 months of fare data, but a quick look at the EB and CL shows their fares went up about 2.2% during that period (or about 1.7% APR) for mid-bucket coach + roomette. Do you have anything more concrete than "substantial"?


My first Amtrak trip in the modern era (two legs each way, coach-roomette and bedroom-coach) was $815. Looking at the same legs for the entire month of next September, the cheapest coach-roomette is $556 and the cheapest bedroom-coach is $604, for a $1160 total or 42% increase. Is 42% increase reasonable over 15 years? (I was just looking at the cheapest prices, without regard to dates of the legs, so it's not a completely reasonable comparison.)

For my actual dates of travel moved forward 15 years, the total is $1226, or 50% increase. Again, is that a reasonable increase for 15 years?

Meals on the first trip included filet mignon and catfish, both well-prepared. I would say what I had on my most recent Amtrak trip, but I don't remember. (It might be that meal wasn't memorable or it might be failing memory.)


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 20, 2017)

I disagree that the Food ( and drink) on the Canadian is only slightly better than the current bland,generic stuff slung in Amtrak Diners.

Its on a par with Train Diners on the Crack Trains from the Glory Days such as the Super Chief, Crescent,Panama Express etc. as is the Service from the Wonderful Crews!


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

willem said:


> My first Amtrak trip in the modern era (two legs each way, coach-roomette and bedroom-coach) was $815. Looking at the same legs for the entire month of next September, the cheapest coach-roomette is $556 and the cheapest bedroom-coach is $604, for a $1160 total or 42% increase. Is 42% increase reasonable over 15 years? (I was just looking at the cheapest prices, without regard to dates of the legs, so it's not a completely reasonable comparison.)


The simple APR would be 100[($1160 - $815) ÷ ($815 X 15)] = 2.8% 100[(1160/815)^1/15 - 1] = 2.4%. Is that reasonable? That's a judgement call. But it doesn't sound unreasonable on the assumption both of your figures are at the same bucket level. But I don't even know if they had buckets 15 years ago.


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## jis (Mar 20, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> I disagree that the Food ( and drink) on the Canadian is only slightly better than the current bland,generic stuff slung in Amtrak Diners.
> 
> Its on a par with Train Diners on the Crack Trains from the Glory Days such as the Super Chief, Crescent,Panama Express etc. as is the Service from the Wonderful Crews!


From my vaerious rides on the Canadian over many years, between my first ride 15 years back and the last ride 3 years back, the elaborateness and quality of food service in the Canadian has also gone down noticeably. Stuff happens.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 20, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > niemi24s said:
> ...


Misleading? How is a range of _potential_ bucket prices going to trump the _actual_ price paid for the same trip at the same time each year? My experience may be anecdotal but it's neither misleading or irrational.



Bob Dylan said:


> I disagree that the Food ( and drink) on the Canadian is only slightly better than the current bland,generic stuff slung in Amtrak Diners. Its on a par with Train Diners on the Crack Trains from the Glory Days such as the Super Chief, Crescent,Panama Express etc. as is the Service from the Wonderful Crews!


Maybe it's just me but I honestly didn't think The Canadian's food was all that special. It's several leagues above Amtrak but that's not really saying much.


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## PVD (Mar 20, 2017)

Based on inflation, fare prices themselves have not risen in an exorbitant manner. However, since ridership has increased much faster than capacity, the ability to get a lower price has diminished on some routes. Look at revenue per passenger mile. If I want to buy a ticket from point A to point B, I am more likely in some cases not to get the low fare, especially for sleepers. that certainly helps make the problem look worse than it really is.


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...


How? Because for all I (and apparently you) know the two dollar figures you mentioned could have been from different buckets. Perhaps, as previously mentioned, the $150 was low bucket and the $400 was high bucket. Being at the same time of the year has no bearing on the matter. The fact that you paid $150 for a ticket 8 years ago and $400 recently for the same ticket means little without knowing the details (buckets).

While there may be a substantial difference in the prices paid, if those prices weren't at the same bucket level they can't really be compared. But having created bucket charts for a few years I have a very good idea how successive buckets are related: for coach it's exponential, by a factor of about 1.25 for most trains; for sleepers a roughly linear increase by some roughly fixed dollar value that varies from train to train.

In short, when you use the term "substantial" to describe the increase from $150 to $400 in 8 years it means nothing without knowing what the bucket level were/are.


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## ScouseAndy (Mar 20, 2017)

niemi24s said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > niemi24s said:
> ...


Of course they can be directly compared, do you think that the vast majority of potential customers care about buckets and what the lowest price they could have paid? Or more likely that are simply concerned about the price they are quoted at the time they want to book? If 12 months/3 years or when ever they made the same trip and now they are being quoted twice or even thrice the price then they are feeling an massive price increase and will determine if they will travel by Amtrak based on if they feel the new fare is value for money.

Not everyone has the time or interest in pouring over spreadsheets and checking amsnag to work out the changes in bucket prices etc


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## jis (Mar 20, 2017)

I think both of you are right. From an analytical perspective, yes, you have to know all the details of the buckets and what not. But from the point of view of a casual passenger, all that gobbledegook does not matter much. So if one were trying to say that DA's experience is misleading, that is so only within a certain context, and not the one within which DA made that statement. It certainly is not misleading for him to say that is his experience, since it certainly is his experience. Afterall the term "misleading" always implies that it is so in a specific context or purpose of the conversation. Apparently the contexts you two are talking about are different. So you can either keep talking past each other until the cows come home, or you can call it quits while both of you are ahead.  But where would the fun of creating a five page yelling match be then, right?


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

All I can say is I'm sure glad his ticket 8 years ago wasn't at high bucket and his recent one at low bucket - he could have posted that ticket prices had plummeted! :blink:

I'm done here. Use whatever adjective you think supports your perceived change in ticket prices.


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## Ryan (Mar 20, 2017)

Or we can try and reconcile the two viewpoints. 

The bucket based analysis isn't the whole story, since what really matters to passengers is what they pay. That being a function of both the prices of the available buckets and how many tickets are sold from each.

Unfortunately, we don't have that data. We do have something of a proxy in the Monthly Reports that broke out sleeping car revenue.

For FY16, Amtrak recorded $186M of revenue from 699k riders (average of $266/pax).

If someone has access to an old monthly report, one could compare. Still not perfect, since things like average distance traveled isn't necessarily the same, but if one were to look year over year some trends may become apparent.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 20, 2017)

Although I would enjoy knowing which bucket everything came from for completeness sake I don't see how it would materially change the final outcome. Although we often explain buckets by saying they are tied to occupancy that's not entirely true. Amtrak alone controls the opaque rules and conditions and modifiers that determine which bucket is available for a given city pair on a given day on a given train. Keeping this in mind let's say the buckets remained exactly the same price for all eight years. The first couple years the low bucket was offered. The next couple years the second lowest. Then the third lowest and so on. Eventually only the highest bucket is offered on the eighth and final year. If each individual bucket never increased in cost (or was perfectly aligned with consumer inflation) would we say that the price increased 0% simply because the buckets themselves never increased in cost? If yes, well that sounds positively ludicrous to me, and if not then what's the point of worrying about buckets in the first place?


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## jis (Mar 20, 2017)

DA, I agree that the details of bucket fares will never trump what fares are actually offered as observed, unless details of exactly what proportion of each bucket were offered on each day is taken into account. And to that extent the obsession with buckets absent that additional information is just a nerdy preoccupation.

A more useful information would be simply to know exactly how many of what fares were actually offered on each day. That would be more useful than all the knowledge in the world about buckets. The buckets are a means to an end, and not an end in itself. Furthermore, even before there were buckets there were multiple fares offered for the same service using other means of managing the proportions.

However, all of this also has very little to do with the quality of meals over the years.


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## ehbowen (Mar 20, 2017)

Another factor is how predictable the various bucket pricing is. As an example, when I booked our Big Family Trip for May 2006 in July 2005, you could reliably expect to find fares at low bucket ten months out, as long as inventory was available. I snapped up four roomettes and the family bedroom, all at low bucket for the round trip. Nowadays, it's not unusual to find sleepers selling at mid- or even high buckets as soon as they enter inventory eleven months out, especially for holiday periods (our return trip from L. A. left the day before Memorial Day). What used to be a predictable strategy is now a crapshoot.


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

Occupancy, supply & demand, yield management, proportion of buckets offered, and all those other things have nothing to do with the matter at hand. The matter at hand (for me, at least) is not whether DA's description of his ticket cost increase as "substantial" is appropriate or not - but rather what that increase actually is. If these prices were at the same bucket, then "substantial" might be a good description. But that cannot be said because we simply don't know if they _were_ at the same bucket.

All that's needed to calculate what the _actual_ fare increase has been are the details of DA's most recent ($400) ticket: no. of people; end points; etc. From that I can find what bucket it was. No need to make this any more difficult than necessary. Most here a fond of the "apples to oranges" analogy. Trying to compare those fares is the same thing if not at the same bucket - a level playing field, so to speak.


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## jis (Mar 20, 2017)

Agreed. If a customer has to contend with seemingly randomly varying fares, then it really does not much matter to said customer whether a dart board is used, or a five bucket system is used or a 20 bucket system is used. Their rational observation will be that the fares change randomly. They could carefully study variation patterns to try to game it, like there are web sites that keep track of how many days out one is likely to get the lowest fare on specific international routes, or use sites that aggregate information from multiple sources to provide information on what is the lowest fare available within a window of days, and when, and such. But those are all real observation based info, and not based on some deep analysis of the underlying system, Indeed, the airlines try hard to make it quite unpredictable and even dynamically change the fares associated with each fare category. Amtrak is restrained from doing so mainly due to their antiquated reservation system and not due to lack of desire or goodness of their heart.

Niemi, you are completely missing the point. From DA's point of observation the change in fare that he sees is what it is. He is not claiming that it is based on an aggregated observation set. For most travelers that is the reality, because when they walk upto their laptop and book a seat that is what they got. Someone else might have indeed got a lower fare in their later attempt, and that would be their legitimate observation. You are right in claiming that form your perspective a same bucket to same bucket comparison is better. But as DA explained,while that is interesting, since there is no guarantee that the same bucket is always offered at all times it does not really matter. And he is right in claiming that too. So there is no single correct answer here. It depends on what is it that each of you are looking for. What is the value of talking about a fare bucket if it is never offered as a real fare?


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

jis said:


> What is the value of talking about a fare bucket if it is never offered as a real fare?


While it's true that some established buckets may never be offered as a real fare, rest assured any fare that is offered is both a real fare (cuz that's what you pay for it) and is one of the established buckets (cuz that's where the fares come from).

And I'm perfectly cognizant of DA's point: He paid $150 eight years ago for the same ticket he just paid $400 for and describes the increase as "substantial" without knowing anything about it - except its cost. But that perceived "substantial" increase could be anywhere from 1.1% up to 13.0% APR. Nobody knows for sure. And with all the obfuscation here - nobody will ever know.

I was simply thinking of the neophyte reader seeing that and thinking "Dang, that Amtrak sure looks pricey - better fly or drive".


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## jis (Mar 20, 2017)

Yeah, there is danger of that, same as the danger of someone posting that s/he paid $400 5 years back and paid $150 for the same ticket today - by just the quirk of which bucket they got, and deciding that Amtrak has gotten cheaper today. So point taken.


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

Taking Ryan's suggestion about using the Amtrak reports to find what the increase might be, here's what I get from Page A-3.4 of the Sep reports for each of these years:

FY 16: Total $/Rider = $70.09, LD $/Rider = $105.76

FY 15: Total $/Rider = $70.78; LD $/Rider = $110.83

FY 14: Total $/Rider = $70.76; LD $/Rider = $112.41

FY 13: Total $/Rider = $66.70; LD $/Rider = $110.62

But then I've always heard these Amtrak figures are highly suspect.


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## Ryan (Mar 20, 2017)

They're not.

You're probably thinking of the cost numbers, which can be because of the subjectivity surrounding allocating overhead costs onto individual trains.

Ridership and revenue are not subjective however. Just simple math.

(although it looks like you used the overall system numbers, not the sleeping car numbers. Where did you get the historical reports from?


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## jis (Mar 20, 2017)

The so called "allocated numbers" are the ones that are suspect. The actual observed and recorded numbers are much less so. They come straight from the operations and financial systems.

The problems arise because, for whatever reason, Amtrak's systems are unable to track actual numbers for things like fuel used on a run and actual staff hours used on a run and such. So what we get is a rolled up number and some judicious guess work to come up with schemes to divvy up the rolled up numbers to allocate them out to each train. Such generated numbers are always somewhat suspect. It gets even worse when HQ costs are similarly divvied up.

And for some reason unknown to me, Amtrak has yet to come up with a way to account for capital costs on a cost allocated basis, which probably is not a bad thing afterall, not to have these synthetic numbers on a per train basis, specially when none of those costs will go away when a train is canceled.


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

Ryan said:


> Where did you get the historical reports from?


Google searches for "September 20xxy Amtrak Monthly Performance Report" turned up the ones for 2016 and 2015 pretty easily - straight from Amtrak. Because each of these has last years data, that gave me data for FY 2016, 2015 and 2014 (in the Sep 2015 report). Making the same Google search for Sep 2014 and digging a little deeper turned up the Sep 2014 report archived here... http://anyflip.com/bwqz/qdex/basic ...which had the FTY2014 and 2013 data. Amtrak has apparently withdrawn its Sep 2014 and earlier reports and I've not been able to find them anyplace. The asterisk at the bottom of Page A-3.5 in the archived one may have something to do with it.

I don't_ think_ any of the figures I used had "allocated" in their headers, but will check later.

And I couldn't even find any earlier editions of this, fer pity's sake: https://www.amtrak.c...Report-2013.pdf As far as this type of performance data is concerned, it's like Amtrak didn't exist prior to Oct 2012.


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## niemi24s (Mar 20, 2017)

ScouseAndy said:


> Not everyone has the time or interest in pouring over spreadsheets and checking amsnag to work out the changes in bucket prices etc


Of course not everyone does. But I do. That's why I update this bucket chart several times a year and make it available to all forum members.




Anybody that doesn't want to be bothered with fare possibilities is perfectly free to ignore it.


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## VentureForth (Mar 21, 2017)

ehbowen said:


> Of course, there is a problem. Satisfied and happy passengers would demand more sleeping (and coach) cars, and, in short order, more trains. I have no idea as to how we could possibly deal with that issue....


Stay open 24 hours.


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## Skyline (Mar 21, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> I disagree that the Food ( and drink) on the Canadian is only slightly better than the current bland,generic stuff slung in Amtrak Diners.
> 
> Its on a par with Train Diners on the Crack Trains from the Glory Days such as the Super Chief, Crescent,Panama Express etc. as is the Service from the Wonderful Crews!


That was absolutely true on my last Canadian journey, all the way, on #1. I'll be repeating that in May, so I hope it's something I can report as still true.

The one thing I have noticed is timekeeping on the Canadian is as bad or worse than most western Amtrak LD routes...mostly due to freight issues, and combined with weather issues in the "off" season.


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## Montreal Ltd (Mar 22, 2017)

On Canadian right now EB and food has been great. Rack of lamb for dinner tonight. Yes lots of freight but close to on time just west of Edmonton


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## Montreal Ltd (Mar 25, 2017)

Ran into a lot of freight traffic in SK and MB, 4 hours late into Winnipeg and 5 into Toronto. But everyone enjoyed the extra train time.


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## Maverickstation (Mar 26, 2017)

Here is a SAMPLE of what is offered for dinner on The Canadian, for Prestige Class, and Sleeper Plus Class.

Sounds great to me !

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/menus/111135807-13_Menu-Diner_SD15103_EN.pdf


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 26, 2017)

Here's a few of my photos of breakfast, a dinner salad, and a fish entree ok VIA's Canadian.

Along with a photo of a via diner.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 26, 2017)

I remember it well!


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## Montreal Ltd (Mar 29, 2017)

That's it precisely. I just got off #2 on Saturday. And I saw #1 leave the Toronto station on time at 10pm, from my room at the Royal York !


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 29, 2017)

That is the way I remember meals on the B&O, Pennsylvania, and the Santa Fe. Amtrak used to have great meals too, like the almost 2" thick tender juicy pork chop or the prime rib.


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