# Long Distance Train Coach & Sleeper Fares (Buckets)



## niemi24s (Feb 21, 2020)

Data on this chart gleaned from searches using AmSnag: http://biketrain.x10.mx/amsnag2.0/amSnag.php




MODERATOR NOTE:  This chart was prepared by an AU member, who will update it periodically. If you have any questions or comments regarding the chart please post them in the Bucket Charts thread in the Amtrak Discussion forum. https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/threads/bucket-chart.77053/#post-835014
Thanks.


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## niemi24s (Mar 5, 2020)

This updated version includes a few recently detected additional fares:


To find just the upcharge for any sleeper, just subtract the Coach fare with the > symbol.


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## niemi24s (Mar 14, 2020)

This updated version shows the SS sleeper fares increasing to equal those of the SM one month earlier than previously reported (see chart above):

There's some possibility the previously reported date for this increase was incorrect.


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## niemi24s (Mar 31, 2020)

This update includes the previously unseen low bucket Bedroom fare for the SL and increases of 1.8% and 1.6% in high bucket Bedroom fares for the CARD & LSL(NYP) and the CL:


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## NW cannonball (Apr 2, 2020)

I'd love to see this data for the Empire Builder


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## F900ElCapitan (Apr 3, 2020)

NW cannonball said:


> I'd love to see this data for the Empire Builder


The EB is in the middle of the graph, row 2 and 3, EB (SEA) and EB (PDX)

Or do you want something different?


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## hlcteacher (Aug 18, 2020)

i prefer coach and find that the rail pass has always been the most cost effective for us, even when the dining car was available to coach


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 18, 2020)

hlcteacher said:


> i prefer coach and find that the rail pass has always been the most cost effective for us, even when the dining car was available to coach


With all the cutbacks and sky high rates in sleepers... which lowers the value... rail passes become an exceptional choice. You are getting the advantages of a large seat, use of the observation lounge, availability of the cafe car, and the beautiful scenery. Also one can bring their own food; and hot water for your cup of soup, or tea or coffee is available in the cafe car free of charge. All this with the extra social distancing space allotted now on passenger cars makes the pass a great idea!


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## niemi24s (Aug 28, 2020)

This chart just has the lowest two or three buckets and with two for each train - end points to the current high ridership intermediate point:


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## niemi24s (Aug 31, 2020)

EB to PDX and LSL to BOS added to the previous chart:


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## niemi24s (Sep 15, 2020)

This updated chart shows fares between the end points of each route, replacing the first four charts in this thread. 

Note that fares for the Silver Star and Silver Meteor are now the same (for their entire routes). They were equalized on 1 Jun 2020.


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## ref5035 (Sep 16, 2020)

How do you access the amsnag that I read about here


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## Qapla (Sep 16, 2020)

Currently, you don't - due to some changes by Amtrak ... technical issues


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## ref5035 (Sep 17, 2020)

Thank you , But could you please tell me the procedure so when it is fixed I’ll know how to use it?

i’m actually trying to plan a huge circular ride Los Angeles New Orleans Washington DC Reno....

thank you


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## caravanman (Sep 17, 2020)

Hi,
Because the Amsnag site is being reconfigured, no one currently knows how it will work, it is an amateur site run by an enthusiast. With the Corona virus causing many timetable alteration issues, I guess it will be some time before we can expect it back.
Broadly speaking, you entered the route, a range of dates you were considering to travel, up to a span of 30 days, and the website brought back the fare info from the Amtrak site, in an easy to follow manner, so by listing all fares for all 30 days, it was easy to spot which dates had cheaper fares.
You can find the info direct from the Amtrak site, but you have to change the departure date one day at a time, and note down the fares. The Amsnag site only tells you the same info in a convenient format, it does not actually sell the tickets.
You might consider a rail pass for your trip, although I am not sure if they are still sold with the Corona virus situation?
When are you thinking of travelling, folk here are often happy to offer route suggestions, etc?

UPDATE:  I tried to buy a rail pass, just as an experiment, and although the option is still on the Amtrak website, it does not connect through to allow purchase. ​


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## RichieRich (Sep 17, 2020)

I really REALLY miss the ol' Amsnag! Being retired, exact travel dates are totally flexible. I was on the A/T almost monthly (til the Covid). It showed me how to save tons just by changing from one day to the next. Hope it comes back. Kudo's to the guy that invented it.


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## Barb Stout (Sep 17, 2020)

ref5035 said:


> How do you access the amsnag that I read about here


Whenever I wanted to use it, I would Google Amsnag because the website address is something like www.biketrain.net, but whenever I put that in, I would not get Amsnag. So Google is my friend.


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## Michigan Mom (Sep 18, 2020)

So SS and SM are now the same? Interesting.
This argues in favor of booking based on connection times rather than meal service.. a lot less incentive to try for the SS from the Cap in DC.
Thanks Niemi for the update.


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## niemi24s (Oct 4, 2020)

Here's an updated version of the chart in Post #11 with 6 additions/corrections;



Glad there were no fare increases at the start of this fiscal year.


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## niemi24s (Oct 12, 2020)

SWC/TE and Silver Service fares are now complete with this updated version:


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## niemi24s (Oct 13, 2020)

Moderators: After a review of 30 different bucket charts on file, there are 5 charts showing 4 fare increases occurring between 26 Oct 2016 and 3 Dec 2018. Those older charts are not posted here. The 5th fare increase for which I have charts is already posted above (see Posts #4 and #11).

If you think anybody might have an interest in those 5 older charts showing fare increases not already shown here, I'll make them available. However, if added here, I think they should be posted in chronological order. And I don't know how to do that (put them first in order). If you'd like to see them here, please let me know and I'll send all 5 of those charts to you - or whatever else you want me to do with them.


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## flitcraft (Oct 13, 2020)

Your work on these bucket charts is most appreciated. It's easy to extrapolate from one or two bits of information to assume a pattern--you've done the hard work of showing us what is actually going on. So, thank you!


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## niemi24s (Oct 13, 2020)

Thanks for the kind words. When the next across the board fare increase occurs, coming up with a new bucket chart without AmSnag is going to be an excruciating chore. Started doing this years ago when I got fed up with people complaining about an outrageous fare increase when comparing two fares they'd paid but without knowing what bucket either of them was. 

Using the last fare increase as an example, a low bucket Roomette on the EB was $513 in Mar 2020 and up 3% to $527 in Sep 2020. But when unknowingly buying the same thing in at the next higher bucket for $651 in Sep 2020 they'd think fares went up 27%! While they did pay 27% more, they were at different bucket levels. And even if there is no wholesale fare increase, the uninitiated could mistake a fare jumping to a higher bucket as a 23% fare increase. Semantics comes into play here too, as the jump from $527 to $651 is indeed an increase - but not in all the fare buckets, just from one bucket to the next. 

Understanding Amtraks bucket system is the key to making sense out of what a ticket costs - whether or not you like what a ticket costs..


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## Qapla (Oct 14, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> I got fed up with people complaining about an outrageous fare increase ...Understanding Amtrak's bucket system is the key to making sense out of what a ticket costs.



Your efforts have made understanding the bucket system easier to grasp. Thanks for the hard work. However, it will not stop the complaining about the high fares. You do not have to fully understand the "bucket system" to know when you are being overcharged for substandard service.

Flex dining, 3x week service, lack of guaranteed connections and fewer staff does not make any explanation of the buckets high prices more palatable.


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## niemi24s (Oct 14, 2020)

I'm sure that if enough complain here about the high fares, Amtrak management will see the complaints, take heed and lower the fares within a few days. 

And when you complain, be sure to tell how much (%) they need to be lowered. Otherwise, if they're not lowered _enough_ you'll have to start complaining all over again.


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## Qapla (Oct 14, 2020)

I'm sure they will get right on the things we comment on here that need fixing ... after all, seeing is believing


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## sttom (Oct 16, 2020)

The problem with the fare buckets is there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for them other than "we can charge this". The price difference between a coach seat and a roomette at the lowest bucket range anywhere from 2.8 times the cost of coach to 4.3 times based on the numbers before the current update. And for reference, a roomette takes up about the same space as 3 coach seats.


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## niemi24s (Oct 16, 2020)

You can probably drive yourself into an early grave trying to figure out why fares are what they are. Early on I figured out that if I didn't know why a gallon of milk cost what it did I certainly couldn't figure out why anything on Amtrak cost what it did. All I really do know about Amtrak fares comes from messing around with buckets for years:

• Coach fares increase in a roughly geometric pattern with the next higher being approximately 20 - 30% more.
• Sleeper fares increase in a roughly arithmetic pattern with the next higher being some (kind of) fixed amount more.

Other than that, I'm like Schultz in that old TV show - I know nothing!


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## sttom (Oct 16, 2020)

I just did the ratios and figured out there was no reason to put any more thought into why the prices are what they are. I only did that because of one of the various discussions on slumber coaches and people insisting that there was any pattern in the differences between coach and sleeper fares. And its a devil may care attitude as far as I can tell.


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## niemi24s (Oct 17, 2020)

Glad you've thrown in the towel on this _why_ business. It's good for mental health! Cripes, I can't even figure out this_ what they_ we_re_ business as mentioned in the <Edit> in Post #19 of this thread: Five And Forty Four Years Of Fares. . .

There must be something about these older fares that I just don't understand.


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## sttom (Oct 20, 2020)

As to the old fares, it seems like the railways before Amtrak all had their own variations of fares, what they offered on the train itself and various deals they'd offer through they year at different points in time. I guess it would be like trying to compare air fares over time between different airlines. They all have their own internal cost structure to deal with and we are probably not privy to that information, along with the slight differences between seat class and other amenities.


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## niemi24s (Oct 21, 2020)

The fares referred to in my previous post were all Amtraks own fares, from the beginning of Amtrak in 1971. Unfortunately there is a rather large gap of 23 years in available fares as shown below:


Just can't seem to come up with any reason for the $40 drop in Coach fare or the $15 drop in Roomette fare between 1980 and 2003. And those fares are all from published sample fares in System Timetables so I don't think they are sale prices. Maybe the introduction of the bucket system had something to do with it.


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## sttom (Oct 21, 2020)

My guess would be it having to do with deregulation. Amtrak was still subject to the ICC and their fare setting rules. I wouldn't be surprised if that oversight remained until railways were allowed to set their own rates during deregulation in the early 80s. Fares were set fairly high at one point. Even a round trip "Tourist" fare between Oakland and Chicago in the late 1930s would cost the equivalent of $1,600 after inflation. From a brief skimming of the Staggers Act, it doesn't specifically exclude Amtrak from it.


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## niemi24s (Oct 21, 2020)

Sounds like a very good guess to me! Never thought about the effects of gummint regulation and it's subsequent relaxation.

Thanks!


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## niemi24s (Oct 29, 2020)

Chart updated with additional fares for CRES and CL found today:


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## niemi24s (Nov 13, 2020)

Chart updated with seven additional fare buckets:


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## niemi24s (Jan 18, 2021)

The subject of partial routes came up in another part of this forum and I opined there may be several thousand of them (just as a WAG). Got curious to see how close my WAG was to reality and came up with this:

I guess 7,288 qualifies as several thousand.


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## niemi24s (Feb 24, 2021)

Had previously posted a bucket chart showing lowest fares from end points to the highest ridership intermediate station. Here's one to the _second_ highest ridership stations:


Sleeper fares for an additional adult/youth can be found by adding the Coach fare followed by the > symbol. Fares in square brackets are estimates.


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## TrackWalker (Feb 24, 2021)

Thanks for all the work you've done with the bucket fare spreadsheet.

It really helped me out with planning a trip I've just purchased tickets for in April.


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## niemi24s (Feb 24, 2021)

Thanks for the kind words. Have another one in the works that'll feature some loop trips made up of two or three different trains and maybe a few end points to junctions (or between two junctions) with other trains that haven't already been posted. 

BTW, for estimates on the three sleeper buckets not shown, simply add the difference between the two that _are_ shown. It's not perfect, but should be fairly close. This is one reason only the two lowest buckets are shown - plus the lowest bucket is of primary interest.


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## neroden (Mar 2, 2021)

sttom said:


> The problem with the fare buckets is there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for them other than "we can charge this".


Well, "we can charge this" is the actual official reason for the bucket system. If the bucket system started not fulfilling that requirement -- raising prices high enough that it prevents seats from being filled -- why, then that would be an oddity which might require congressional investigation of management. But if "we can charge this" is still true, then it is doing exactly what it is supposed to...


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## neroden (Mar 2, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> Had previously posted a bucket chart showing lowest fares from end points to the highest ridership intermediate station. Here's one to the _second_ highest ridership stations:
> View attachment 20822
> 
> Sleeper fares for an additional adult/youth can be found by adding the Coach fare followed by the > symbol. Fares in square brackets are estimates.


Thanks. As you know, I *am* always taking CHI-SYR and SYR-NYP, so it's quite relevant for me!


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## niemi24s (Mar 19, 2021)

FYI, here are links to both the pre-Covid (daily) and the current Amtrak timetables:

• Daily pre-Covid (7x): Amtrak Tickets, Schedules and Train Routes
• Covid (3x): Amtrak Tickets, Schedules and Train Routes

If the Amtrak homepage appears, click on the back arrow. And here's the current 3X a week departure dates for the trains and when daily service is supposed to be restored:


Couldn't get the bottom part any clearer for some reason


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## niemi24s (Apr 27, 2021)

This partial update shows those one adult sleeper fares now offered on NER 66 and 67. As only three in each category could be found there's no way of knowing if any additional fares are loaded into Arrow.


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## Barb Stout (Jun 10, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> Had previously posted a bucket chart showing lowest fares from end points to the highest ridership intermediate station. Here's one to the _second_ highest ridership stations:
> View attachment 20822
> 
> Sleeper fares for an additional adult/youth can be found by adding the Coach fare followed by the > symbol. Fares in square brackets are estimates.


My sister and I are tentatively planning a circle trip in late December, undoubtedly non-low bucket times. The lowest cost sleeper (roomette) I can find (thus far) going from ABQ to Chi (1 adult and 1 senior) is $1078. I can't quite determine from this chart which bucket that cost would fall into. I'm thinking we should forget about getting a sleeper during that season and instead get a rail pass and add another segment or 2 into our circle trip. Would anyone else care to venture a guess which bucket $1078 for a roomette would be?


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 10, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> My sister and I are tentatively planning a circle trip in late December, undoubtedly non-low bucket times. The lowest cost sleeper (roomette) I can find (thus far) going from ABQ to Chi (1 adult and 1 senior) is $1078. I can't quite determine from this chart which bucket that cost would fall into. I'm thinking we should forget about getting a sleeper during that season and instead get a rail pass and add another segment or 2 into our circle trip. Would anyone else care to venture a guess which bucket $1078 for a roomette would be?


Looking @ niemi24s Updated Bucket List above your Post, I d say that's the Highest Bucket since LAX-CHI Highest Bucket is $1185 and the SWC is a Popular Route.


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## willem (Jun 10, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> Would anyone else care to venture a guess which bucket $1078 for a roomette would be?


ABQ to CHI does not appear on the chart; it is only for end-to-end. Also, it is for one adult traveler. (*niemi24s*, please correct me if I'm mistaken.)

One approach would be to make a fake reservation from LAX to CHI for one adult and note the bucket. (The departure from LAX should be the day before the departure from ABQ, so that it is the same train.) Unfortunately, this is not foolproof, since the LAX-CHI reservation might be a different bucket than the ABQ-CHI reservation.

Another approach would be to make a fake reservation from ABQ to CHI for one adult, then multiply it by the number of miles LAX-CHI and divide by the number of miles ABQ-CHI and compare it to the chart. Unfortunately, there is no assurance that the price varies linearly with distance. (To the contrary, there have been assurances that it does not.)

Having said all that, I will agree with *Bob Dylan* about it being high bucket. I reach this conclusion by subtracting a guess at the senior rail fare (say $210) from $1078, then increasing that number to compare it to an end-to-end number, and I get something off the chart.

However, all this focus on bucket seems beside the fact. If I want to take a trip, I decide if I'm willing to pay what Amtrak asks. If yes, I make a reservation. If no, I make other travel plans. I like a "good deal" more than the next person, but I won't take a trip just because I can get a good deal and I won't cancel a trip because I cannot. Sometimes I have traveled earlier or later (thank you, *PaulM*, for Amsnag while it lasted), but that was based on dollar amounts without a focus on bucket.


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## Barb Stout (Jun 10, 2021)

willem said:


> ABQ to CHI does not appear on the chart; it is only for end-to-end. Also, it is for one adult traveler. (*niemi24s*, please correct me if I'm mistaken.)


I had replied to niemi24s's post where s/he had added the 2nd highest ridership station pair for each train. The 2nd highest for the SWC is ABQ/Chi. However, now when I click on the attachment on that post that I replied to, it displayed niemi24s' original end-to-end information. So I don't get it, but thanks for your comments.


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## willem (Jun 10, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> I had replied to niemi24s's post where s/he had added the 2nd highest ridership station pair for each train.


I didn't see that, and I'm sorry I missed it.


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## niemi24s (Jun 18, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> My sister and I are tentatively planning a circle trip in late December, undoubtedly non-low bucket times. The lowest cost sleeper (roomette) I can find (thus far) going from ABQ to Chi (1 adult and 1 senior) is $1078. I can't quite determine from this chart which bucket that cost would fall into. I'm thinking we should forget about getting a sleeper during that season and instead get a rail pass and add another segment or 2 into our circle trip. Would anyone else care to venture a guess which bucket $1078 for a roomette would be?


Sorry this reply took so long, but here's a two part answer.

• An estimate of which bucket your $1078 fare might be can be found by:
_ deducting the single Senior discounted rail fare from $1078 to find the fare for one Adult in a Roomette
_ which is 0.9 X (Coach Fare With The > Symbol)
_ which is 0.9 X $193 = $173.70
_ so the 1 Adult fare would be about $1078 - $174 = $904
_ but the chart in Post #38 only shows the two lowest Roomette buckets of $485 and $591
_ so the three other higher buckets can be estimated by adding the difference between those two buckets of $106 to $591 three times giving the five buckets of $485, 591, 697, 803 and 909.
_ The previous estimate (two steps above) was $904 and is closest to the estimated high bucket of $909, so your $1078 fare is for a high bucket Roomette.

• The actual high bucket Roomette fare for one Adult on the SWC between ABQ and CHI can be found from Arrow which shows $904 for tomorrow which is only 0.6% from the estimate. Close enough for me.

BTW, a low bucket Roomette for the two of you would be $485 (from the chart) + 0.9 X $193> = 485 + 173.70 = $658.70

This estimation method will work for any of the trips where only the two lowest buckets are given because the upcharges for the sleepers go in an arithmetic progression (with a _fairly_ constant difference between successive buckets). And while Coach fares go in a roughly geometric progression, the same Coach fare (the one followed by the > symbol) is part of the total fare shown in the chart so the total fares for each sleeper remain in an arithmetic progression.


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## Barb Stout (Jun 18, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> Sorry this reply took so long, but here's a two part answer.
> 
> • An estimate of which bucket your $1078 fare might be can be found by:
> _ deducting the single Senior discounted rail fare from $1078 to find the fare for one Adult in a Roomette
> ...


Thanks very much for the math and "showing your work"! : )


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## niemi24s (Jun 18, 2021)

You're welcome. I always like to show the work so others can see how to do it (and maybe point out any errors).

Seems better than just saying "Your $1078 is high bucket."


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## BeeLady (Aug 30, 2021)

I am an absolutely rank, newbie and not particularly tech savvy. What is a bucket? I see many references and am trying to find the most cost effective way to do the Chicago to West Cost trip overnight, an a bedroom next October. Can someone direct me to an easy to understand explanation of “bucket?” Thank you


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## Qapla (Aug 30, 2021)

The "bucket" is a term that is applied to the various pricing amounts of a given room/fare

The same fare/room cost is divided into progressive pricing steps like this (being generic I will not use actual fares)


$
$$
$$$
$$$$
$$$$$
Each of these price points is called a bucket. So, the cheapest fare ($) is the lowest "bucket" and the most expensive price ($$$$$) is called the high "bucket"

For each fare/sleeper on each route there is a set of prices divided into "buckets" that Amtrak sets the current cost to depending on whatever method Amtrak is currently using to set the "bucket" price to when they release a ticket for sale.

I hope this helps.


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## niemi24s (Aug 31, 2021)

A "bucket" is nothing more than a fare or ticket price. Coach has 6 possible buckets/fares and the sleepers each have 5 possible buckets/fares. Each of these remains a fixed value for some period of time ranging from a few months to as much as a year. 

Amtraks computer (Arrow) decides which bucket to offer for sale on any day and can change what's offered from day to day. F'rinstance, here are the current buckets/fares for the whole route of the Empire Builder between Chicago and Seattle...


...listed in the order to Coach, Roomette, Family Bedroom and Bedroom. You might find that a Roomette fare is offered at $651 when you do a trial booking today for some future date. Then tomorrow you might find the fare has gone up to $767 for travel on that same future date in a Roomette.

In short, _bucket_ is nothing more than high-falootin' term for ticket cost or fare - just part of the jargon of this forum. I call it gobbledegook!


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## joelkfla (Sep 1, 2021)

Doesn't the price of a particular accommodation change dynamically as they are sold? When the booking page says, "1 available at this fare," doesn't that mean there may be more available at a higher fare?

So the reason for calling them buckets would be that there are x tickets available in bucket 1, and y tickets in bucket 2, etc. When bucket 1 is empty, your ticket comes out of bucket 2 at the higher fare.

I realize, of course, that the allocation of fares into buckets is changed from time to time.


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## niemi24s (Sep 1, 2021)

Excellent explanation of why they're called buckets!

Doesn't seem so much like gobbledegook now. Thanks.


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## Railspike (Sep 2, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> Excellent explanation of why they're called buckets!
> 
> Doesn't seem so much like gobbledegook now. Thanks.


I just ran the entire month of January EMY-CHI on CZ for a bedroom High bucket $2261 and low bucket $1955. Low bucket was on only 8 days of the month.


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## niemi24s (Sep 3, 2021)

While $2261 is indeed the High/Highest Bucket, $1955 is not low bucket. It's just the lowest one you found. The Low/Lowest Bucket is actually $1039.

Current Bedroom buckets for the CZ are $1039, [1345 estimated], 1650, 1955 and 2261.


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## Railspike (Sep 3, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> While $2261 is indeed the High/Highest Bucket, $1955 is not low bucket. It's just the lowest one you found. The Low/Lowest Bucket is actually $1039.
> 
> Current Bedroom buckets for the CZ are $1039, [1345 estimated], 1650, 1955 and 2261.


Was the Low Bucket of $1039 for January?


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## niemi24s (Sep 3, 2021)

Railspike said:


> Was the Low Bucket of $1039 for January?


I don't know. It was found some weeks or months ago and I've no recollection or record of the month I saw it offered. It might even have been offered in January when I noticed it but the fare for that date subsequently rose.

Fares for a specific date sometimes increase, sometime decrease and sometimes stay the same.


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## 1884Derby (Sep 4, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> A "bucket" is nothing more than a fare or ticket price. Coach has 6 possible buckets/fares and the sleepers each have 5 possible buckets/fares. Each of these remains a fixed value for some period of time ranging from a few months to as much as a year.
> 
> Amtraks computer (Arrow) decides which bucket to offer for sale on any day and can change what's offered from day to day. F'rinstance, here are the current buckets/fares for the whole route of the Empire Builder between Chicago and Seattle...
> View attachment 24185
> ...



Thanx for sharing. Do you also know the current buckets for CZ (roomette)?


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## Railspike (Sep 4, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> I don't know. It was found some weeks or months ago and I've no recollection or record of the month I saw it offered. It might even have been offered in January when I noticed it but the fare for that date subsequently rose.
> 
> Fares for a specific date sometimes increase, sometime decrease and sometimes stay the same.


I cannot speak to Buckets for previous months. I only know I ran January 2022 CZ EMY-CHI for a bedroom and every day was either $2261 or $1955. No other prices were offered.


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## niemi24s (Sep 4, 2021)

1884Derby said:


> Do you also know the current buckets for CZ (roomette)?


Same as shown on the chart in Post #44 of this thread. Same goes for Coach. The Bedroom and Family Bedroom buckets have risen twice on all LD trains since that chart was posted. In addition, Roomette prices have also risen on the Auto Train.


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## Railspike (Sep 4, 2021)

Is there a pattern that over time, the price might come down on a given day? Or is it the opposite?
The new pricing system is baffling.


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## niemi24s (Sep 4, 2021)

No pattern that I'm aware of. 

Others here in their profound wisdom assert the lowest fares can be found on certain days of the week, in between certain holidays, during a month that's X months in the future or some other rule of thumb.

I'm of the opinion the pattern is as if fares for each sleeper are selected on a daily basis by curious monkeys set loose in a roomful of eighty two jars, one jar for each sleeper on each train in each direction. The five pre-determined fares for each sleeper are printed on cards (sized and shaped so that no more than one can be withdrawn) placed in the jars:

• If a card with a different fare is withdrawn, that then becomes the fare du jour for the next day.

• If no card (or a card with the same fare as the current fare) is withdrawn the fare remains the same

Of course, that's not how fares are actually chosen. But it's the best analogy I've come up with - and just as meaningful to me as yield management.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 5, 2021)

Railspike said:


> Is there a pattern that over time, the price might come down on a given day? Or is it the opposite?
> The new pricing system is baffling.


It's not new. Amtrak has been doing yield management for many years.

In theory Amtrak will track demand and adjust the allocation of inventory across the five buckets as demand materializes or doesn't materialize. Although Niemi24s' monkey theory makes as much sense as anything in real world terms.

They do seem to have become quite a bit more aggressive in initial inventory allocation post-pandemic than they had been. That is an impression, not a statement of fact, btw.

They can adjust the inventory allocation at any time.

The only answer is to be aware of what the bucket values are, which Niemi24s makes easier with his invaluable charts, be a bit flexible with actual travel dates within a travel window, and keep checking. And pounce on lower buckets for a trip when they appear.


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## Winecliff Station (Sep 9, 2021)

Any word on whether Amsnag is coming back now that daily LD service is restored, or was that not the reason it ended?


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## niemi24s (Sep 9, 2021)

As I understand it, AmSnag's demise was the result of Amtrak doing something with their software that makes it impossible for outsiders to scrape or mine fare data from Arrow - the Amtrak computer system.

Nothing at all to do with daily/non-daily service - I think.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 9, 2021)

Winecliff Station said:


> Any word on whether Amsnag is coming back now that daily LD service is restored, or was that not the reason it ended?


Amtrak changed its website in ways that made the HTML parsing technique Amsnag was based on not work any longer.

Amtrak basically modernized their presentation layer, although they didn't do a terrific job. The issue really was not the reduction in train frequency, Amsnag always handled the Sunset and Cardinal just fine. It was the change in technological approach Amtrak used in their UIs that doomed Amsnag. That those changes were implemented at roughly the same time as the frequency reduction was coincidental, IMHO.

Unless Amtrak exposes public APIs that developers can leverage, it is doubtful it will come back. Hacking their current UI is certainly possible, but far more difficult and involved. That is not to imply creating and maintaining Amsnag was easy.

Their legacy core system, ARROW, is at least one layer away from their website, more if they are halfway competent (which is open to question).

Best hope is for Amtrak itself to create a way to get multiple days fare return like most airline websites have. They have said it is their intent.


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## Keith1951 (Oct 23, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> Data on this chart gleaned from searches using AmSnag: http://biketrain.x10.mx/amsnag2.0/amSnag.php
> 
> View attachment 16979
> 
> ...


Im trying to understand these bucket prices. I see all these charts folks are showing me about bucket pricing. Instead of looking at their old charts, how do I find bucket prices for the California Zephyr and where would I go to find them myself?


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## caravanman (Oct 23, 2021)

The charts are a handy way to see what range of fares are possible, cheapest= Low Bucket, most expensive = Highest Bucket.
The range of fares possible on any given train/route is not available from Amtrak, so folk have created the charts to offer an indication. 
The only way to find out what is available, or the current bucket "spans" is to look it up yourself over a range of travel dates on Amtrak .com.


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## Keith1951 (Oct 23, 2021)

caravanman said:


> The charts are a handy way to see what range of fares are possible, cheapest= Low Bucket, most expensive = Highest Bucket.
> The range of fares possible on any given train/route is not available from Amtrak, so folk have created the charts to offer an indication.
> The only way to find out what is available, or the current bucket "spans" is to look it up yourself over a range of travel dates on Amtrak .com.


I appreciated that. That makes sense. So I need to make my own chart, and thanks to you I see now how to do it. Thx again.


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## joelkfla (Oct 23, 2021)

Keith1951 said:


> I appreciated that. That makes sense. So I need to make my own chart, and thanks to you I see now how to do it. Thx again.


Use the existing charts as a starting point; otherwise you can't tell which bucket the fare you're looking at represents. If you see a fare that's between 2 buckets on the existing chart, it's probably replaced the lower of the 2 fares.

Note that the Amtrak website makes it very tedious, and you might not find all 5 buckets even after searching thru a month of fares.


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## JC_620 (Oct 24, 2021)

So, is there no rhyme or reason on how to find out what the low bucket fares actually are, or when they are going to be offered? IF they are going to be offered? It may have been mentioned previously and my apologies if it has but I thought that in years past, it was based on supply and demand: example: they have 5 bedrooms, priced low bucket to high bucket, and when low bucket sells then it goes to the next tier up and so on? It seems that now Amtrak is just going right for the kill and pricing everyone out even if you are planning months out ahead. So then this garbage about "book ahead" and "book early for the best fares" is just that, garbage. It might hold some truth to the coach fares, but not at all to the roommettes or bedrooms. You mileage may vary.


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## Cal (Oct 24, 2021)

JC_620 said:


> So, is there no rhyme or reason on how to find out what the low bucket fares actually are, or when they are going to be offered? IF they are going to be offered? It may have been mentioned previously and my apologies if it has but I thought that in years past, it was based on supply and demand: example: they have 5 bedrooms, priced low bucket to high bucket, and when low bucket sells then it goes to the next tier up and so on? It seems that now Amtrak is just going right for the kill and pricing everyone out even if you are planning months out ahead. So then this garbage about "book ahead" and "book early for the best fares" is just that, garbage. It might hold some truth to the coach fares, but not at all to the roommettes or bedrooms. You mileage may vary.


I believe yield management currently starts them off at high bucket, then a few months in they will change based on sales.


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2021)

JC_620 said:


> So, is there no rhyme or reason on how to find out what the low bucket fares actually are, or when they are going to be offered?


Depends on the train, but basically yes. If a train is going to sell out at top prices, there's no reason to sell rooms for cheaper.

Sometimes, some trains, a few months out (5-6) you may see cheaper prices if sales are behind what the revenue managers predict.


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## JC_620 (Oct 24, 2021)

Cal said:


> I believe yield management currently starts them off at high bucket, then a few months in they will change based on sales.


I see. Interesting. One could argue that they are just trying to maximize profits especially after the pandemic. But, the savvy Amtraker who knows about low buckets and high buckets will still try and search for the best fares.


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## sttom (Oct 24, 2021)

JC_620 said:


> I see. Interesting. One could argue that they are just trying to maximize profits especially after the pandemic. But, the savvy Amtraker who knows about low buckets and high buckets will still try and search for the best fares.



Another reason why yield management algorithms price things high and lower them is to prevent capacity from selling out immediately. Airlines do this too to some extent. For example it being high at one point, lower say 6 months out or when they think tourists are buying space, adjust then based on capacity, and then increase to extremely high as the date approaches and then go cheap on the day of just to sell the space. And all of this is based on hsitorical sales and market research.


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## JC_620 (Oct 24, 2021)

sttom said:


> Another reason why yield management algorithms price things high and lower them is to prevent capacity from selling out immediately. Airlines do this too to some extent. For example it being high at one point, lower say 6 months out or when they think tourists are buying space, adjust then based on capacity, and then increase to extremely high as the date approaches and then go cheap on the day of just to sell the space. And all of this is based on hsitorical sales and market research.


I understand what you are saying. But have you ever checked out the bedroom prices on the day of or on a next day departure say on the Zephyr or the Builder? I have, just out of curiosity and lately for the dates that I had looked at, they were all that high bucket fare.


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## JC_620 (Oct 24, 2021)

sttom said:


> Another reason why yield management algorithms price things high and lower them is to prevent capacity from selling out immediately. Airlines do this too to some extent. For example it being high at one point, lower say 6 months out or when they think tourists are buying space, adjust then based on capacity, and then increase to extremely high as the date approaches and then go cheap on the day of just to sell the space. And all of this is based on hsitorical sales and market research.


Example: Checked #6 between Emeryville and Chicago for Tuesday. Bedroom is $2,485 or so. They haven't dropped it. Not yet anyways. I doubt they will either.


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## sttom (Oct 24, 2021)

JC_620 said:


> Example: Checked #6 between Emeryville and Chicago for Tuesday. Bedroom is $2,485 or so. They haven't dropped it. Not yet anyways. I doubt they will either.


Amtrak doesn't do the last step. Airlines tend to depending on what the yield managing spirits say on any given day.


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## niemi24s (Oct 31, 2021)

sttom said:


> Amtrak doesn't do the last step.


If by "last step" you mean offer the low, lower or lowest bucket just before departure, I'd not be too hasty with such a statement.

F'rinstance, Amtrak is now offering a Bedroom on the LSL departing NYP about 2 hours from now for $858. While that fare is not the low bucket fare (I estimate the low bucket fare to be about $678) I have never seen that low bucket fare offered. I've seen all four higher buckets offered for a Bedroom ($858, 1034, 1215, and 1397) but not once have I seen anything less than $858 offered after 3 or 4 months of searches entailing what must be many hundreds of Arrow searches.

But perhaps you meant something else when writing "last step"?

FWIW, the companion train of the LSL with the same buckets is the Cardinal and after a similar huge number of searches I have never seen any Bedroom fare other than high bucket ($1397) offered.

Maybe those lower/lowest bucket fares are out there somewhere, but I've never spotted them.


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## niemi24s (Nov 2, 2021)

Below find the latest fare bucket chart with estimated fares in square brackets:


Note that 32 of these fares are estimates. Glad to hear from anybody who can either confirm or pin down any of them so the [ ] can be removed.

Coach fares for NER 66/67 are beyond my comprehension: have seen $35, $46, $58 and $81 labeled as Saver fares; $166 is what's added for the second person in a room, so it gets the > symbol; but $166 is close to the highest bucket yet seen of $171; and 10 (not the usual 6) different Coach buckets have been observed!


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## cheerose (Nov 14, 2021)

@niemi24s - First of all, love the chart -- I think that I have been going a bit cross-eyed reviewing fare for a potential trip next year and this clears some things up.

Couple of updates that I've noticed (couple of days ago) -- For Coach, CS is 98 / 123 & Cres is 137 / 171

I do have some questions regarding the chart -- mainly How would you use this chart in trip planning?
For example, if I see a Sleeper at a High end of the price range, I should wait (or buy and plan to re-book at a lower price later) and, conversely, if it is at the Low range, buy now and don't expect it to drop ?

How about with different dates (close to each other), where a sleeper class might be high price on some days, but low price on a couple ?

Apologies if these/similar questions were asked earlier in the thread.


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## niemi24s (Nov 15, 2021)

Thanks for the kind words and for the fare updates.

If the sleeper you want is is at, say, middle bucket there's some chance it may never go go down. It could stay the same or go up and I know of no way to know which of the three will occur. If it's at low bucket buy it because it can't go any lower - Amtrak sales don't apply to sleepers.

If it's high priced some days then low priced the next few and your dates are flexible - take your pick! If there's no flexibility either buy the ticket at the current high rate, wait for a possible fare drop or pick another mode of travel.

If you buy a sleeper at one of the higher fares, check periodically for price drops. If the price drops call AGR and have the fare MODIFED to the lower one. They'll refund you the difference.


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## niemi24s (Nov 22, 2021)

Please take note of the following errors on the chart in Post #84:

• Change CS Saver Coach fare from 99 to 101
• Change EB (PDX) middle bucket Roomette fare from 884 to 769


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## cheerose (Nov 25, 2021)

Can confirm that 518 is a bucket for the CL Roomette; see 04/17 & 04/18 Eastbound as an example


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## niemi24s (Nov 26, 2021)

Thanx for that confirmation. I'll delete its square brackets the next time the master is updated.


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## Maglev (Nov 26, 2021)

Thank you so much for producing these charts! They are very helpful in saving money when booking train reservations.


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## truncated (Dec 7, 2021)

2nd-highest bedroom bucket for 448/449 looks like it's $1,235 (e.g. CHI-BOS on 1/19/22)


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## niemi24s (Dec 12, 2021)

Another one pinned down. Thanks!


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## niemi24s (Jan 1, 2022)

Good news: The new year does not seem to have ushered in any fare increases - so far.


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## GAT (Jan 2, 2022)

Are AGR points charged using the same bucket system? Apologies if this has been asked and answered previously.


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## niemi24s (Jan 2, 2022)

I believe they are, but not perfectly so. That's because I don't think the ratio of points/dollar remains constant across the board. However, as a general rule, it seems the points/dollar ratio is 35.5/1.
• But on days when Saver Coach fares are offered, that ratio is higher because it seems like points are charged on the basis of the next higher bucket or the Value Coach fare
• For sleeper fares, that 35.5/1 ratio holds true except when it doesn't hold true. F'rinstance on tomorrows CONO from CHI to NOL, the Bedroom fare for one adult is $534 or 37, 914 points for a ratio of 71.0/1 - twice the norm. But for the next day (4 Jan) the ratio is back down to the 35.5/1 norm.

But perhaps someone else has a better answer for you. AGR points have always mystified me.

[edit] Re-checked the CONO fares this (next) morning of 3 Jan 2022 for travel today and the same situation exists. Bedrooms are still 37,914 points and even worse is a Roomette for 50,481 points, as shown below:



The Coach fare is also terribly inflated because the Value fare is $138 which at the customary 35.5/1 ratio would be 4899 points. But after this initial selection, if a different accommodation is selected and a return made to Roomette, the point values in the box to the right of the illustration appear to return to normal while that inflated "Rooms from 50,481 pts" figure remains the same. That 50,481 point cost shown above works out to $1422 which is more than four times the high bucket!

Tried a dummy booking to see if Arrow would actually charge me 50,481 for a Roomette, but didn't have enough points to proceed with the transaction. 

Anyhoo, this might be the only time anything like this has ever occurred. Then again, . . . . .


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## gregleck (Mar 10, 2022)

This is going back at least a decade or more. But I was told at the time that if a roomette or bedroom was sold at a higher bucket level, and then the passenger cancelled, the roomette or bedroom was made available at the lowest bucket price, even if it had been sold at the highest bucket level.

The phone representative (I don't think Julie was even a gleam in her creator's eye at the time) told me to call each day at a specific time after midnight (1:30 AM? 3:00 AM?), which was when the cancellations all got put back on to "available status." I recall doing this for days and finally scoring a roomette at a cheaper price.

My guess is this is no longer the case. Anyone?


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## Keith1951 (Mar 10, 2022)

I don't know if that's true or not. We made plans to take a train to San Fran and I started checking every day during fall of 2021 for superliner bedroom prices on the CZ, CHI to EMY for May 2022. Prices were too much. Then one day I said I was going to wake up in the middle of the night and check the website and out of the blue I caught one for $1194. Almost a thousand dollars cheaper. Thats a good deal as far as I am concerned. But the closer the date gets I worry because of all the cancellations going on. I just hope they don't take this away and make me pay more for a different date.


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## 20th Century Rider (Mar 10, 2022)

Keith1951 said:


> I don't know if that's true or not. We made plans to take a train to San Fran and I started checking every day during fall of 2021 for superliner bedroom prices on the CZ, CHI to EMY for May 2022. Prices were too much. Then one day I said I was going to wake up in the middle of the night and check the website and out of the blue I caught one for $1194. Almost a thousand dollars cheaper. Thats a good deal as far as I am concerned. But the closer the date gets I worry because of all the cancellations going on. I just hope they don't take this away and make me pay more for a different date.


If Amtrak cancels your train they will provide same accommodations on a different date with no cost difference. This has been their policy and all agents should know it... especially if they are fielding many calls from folks needing to reschedule due to those cancellations.


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## river (Mar 11, 2022)

Regarding sleeper prices dropping due to cancellation or at the last minute:
Our trip was earlier this week on the Southwest Chief from LAX to CHI. For a week or two before we left, I checked several times every day to see if my highest bucket reserved family bedroom or possibly a bedroom might happen to become available at a lower bucket. (When I needed to purchase, they were all at the highest bucket as the chart above indicates. I reserved the family bedroom for the two of us as it was a few hundred $ cheaper than the bedroom.)
About a week before departure a bedroom popped up at the LOWEST bucket. So I promptly modified my reservation online to switch from the family bedroom to a bedroom. I was assigned Bedroom D. Happily I also got an immediate and very substantial voucher of more than $800. And after I successfully made the switch the bedrooms remaining were listed at the highest bucket again. The returned family bedroom also remained in the highest bucket.
So it's very possible that the cancellation brought the cancelled room to the lowest bucket. Also possible (and I think most likely) is that the cancelled bedroom was purchased at the lowest bucket rate and that's how it returned into the available rooms.
Happy it happened and always worth checking throughout the day to see if you can score a good last minute deal like I did!


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## Michigan Mom (Mar 12, 2022)

river said:


> Regarding sleeper prices dropping due to cancellation or at the last minute:
> Our trip was earlier this week on the Southwest Chief from LAX to CHI. For a week or two before we left, I checked several times every day to see if my highest bucket reserved family bedroom or possibly a bedroom might happen to become available at a lower bucket. (When I needed to purchase, they were all at the highest bucket as the chart above indicates. I reserved the family bedroom for the two of us as it was a few hundred $ cheaper than the bedroom.)
> About a week before departure a bedroom popped up at the LOWEST bucket. So I promptly modified my reservation online to switch from the family bedroom to a bedroom. I was assigned Bedroom D. Happily I also got an immediate and very substantial voucher of more than $800. And after I successfully made the switch the bedrooms remaining were listed at the highest bucket again. The returned family bedroom also remained in the highest bucket.
> So it's very possible that the cancellation brought the cancelled room to the lowest bucket. Also possible (and I think most likely) is that the cancelled bedroom was purchased at the lowest bucket rate and that's how it returned into the available rooms.
> Happy it happened and always worth checking throughout the day to see if you can score a good last minute deal like I did!



Do you check using the App or on the Desktop site?


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## river (Mar 12, 2022)

I just use my laptop and go to the Amtrak.com page for tickets and reservations and type in my 'from' and 'to' and my depart date. I prefer using my laptop rather than my iphone. Much quicker, larger page, and easier to read. Also easy and quick access to modify reservation tab at the top of the screen.

Also I've read that you need to call Amtrak on the phone to make changes or get price adjustments in circumstances like this. I've often had a long wait to get an agent, so I attempted to make room changes with price adjustments like these on the modify reservation page and was successful in doing so twice now in recent months. (First time I got a refund to my credit card; second time when trip was within 10 days or less I received a voucher. Both times it was immediate.)


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## daybeers (Mar 12, 2022)

Nice grab! That might become less lucrative when the change fee kicks in next month.


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## joelkfla (Mar 12, 2022)

daybeers said:


> Nice grab! That might become less lucrative when the change fee kicks in next month.


I thought sleeper fares were always exempted from change fees.

Here's what was on the web site in April 2020:

_Class of Service: Sleeper Accommodations
_

_*Refunds:* Refund to original form of payment with 25% fee if canceled 15 or more days before departure. Within 14 days of departure only refundable to non-refundable eVoucher with a 25% cancellation fee._
_*No change fee*_


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## JC_620 (Mar 15, 2022)

Just took a look at #6 out of Reno to Chicago for December for a bedroom. All high bucket fares at $2239. Roomettes are flexible but bedroom are mostly high bucket firm. 
Even upcoming departures next week are all high bucket. My guess is if they can get away with selling them at high bucket, then they are going to maximize their profits and do just that.


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## Jay Aitchsee (Mar 24, 2022)

EB from PDX: Today, 3/24, there is a bedroom available on 3/27 for $929. Looks like low bucket.
And on 3/28 there are 3 Rooms available at the low bucket of $529
Interestingly, on 3/27 a room is available at $935 while a bedroom as noted is available at $929


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## JC_620 (Mar 24, 2022)

Jay Aitchsee said:


> EB from PDX: Today, 3/24, there is a bedroom available on 3/27 for $929. Looks like low bucket.
> And on 3/28 there are 3 Rooms available at the low bucket of $529
> Interestingly, on 3/27 a room is available at $935 while a bedroom as noted is available at $929


Funny, I just checked and now it says that 3/29 bedroom is $1176. 
They don't last long at all...


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## niemi24s (Apr 14, 2022)

Here's an updated version of the fare bucket chart:


Still not sure what to make of the fares for NER 66/67. When they did show up in months past they were illogical and seemed to have no set pattern. Lately, they don't even show up. May delete it the next wholesale fare increase.


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## daybeers (Apr 14, 2022)

niemi24s said:


> Here's an updated version of the fare bucket chart:View attachment 28096
> 
> Still not sure what to make of the fares for NER 66/67. When they did show up in months past they were illogical and seemed to have no set pattern. Lately, they don't even show up. May delete it the next wholesale fare increase.


Thanks for the update! I really appreciate this work. Like I've said before, if you ever need help finding fares, let me know. The high bucket LSL NYP-CHI bedroom fare is $1,497, BOS-CHI bedroom high bucket is $1,512!!  The LSL BOS bedroom fares on your chart are also slightly out of order.


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## niemi24s (Apr 14, 2022)

Thanks for those corrections. Did you happen to spot _anything_ but high bucket Bedrooms on either of those LSL's?

I just spent about 30 fruitless minutes looking for some. Like a lot of other trains, looks like lower bucket Bedrooms are scarce as hens teeth. Hope to correct the chart before edit time is up tomorrow.

[Edit: Errors noted by daybeers corrected on chart in Post $107. There may be others.]
[Edit 2: While doing some spot checks, just discovered the R and FB buckets for the CL are now invalid! And because all I could find were the high bucket fares any estimates for the four lower buckets would be pretty iffy. If anyone spots a Roomette fare lower than $643 or a Family Bedroom fare lower than $846 on the CL please let me know and I'll derive some estimates. Thanks in advance.]


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## daybeers (Apr 15, 2022)

niemi24s said:


> Thanks for those corrections. Did you happen to spot _anything_ but high bucket Bedrooms on either of those LSL's?
> 
> I just spent about 30 fruitless minutes looking for some. Like a lot of other trains, looks like lower bucket Bedrooms are scarce as hens teeth. Hope to correct the chart before edit time is up tomorrow.
> 
> [Edit: Errors noted by daybeers corrected on chart in Post $107. There may be others.]


No, not for bedrooms. You're right they are incredibly rare.


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## niemi24s (Apr 17, 2022)

Here's the chart with fares for the SL and CL amended:


With only a single FB fare found on the CL, those 4 other FB estimates are quite iffy.


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## niemi24s (May 1, 2022)

And yet another amended/updated chart:



Changes are to the LSL (NYP) and CL, thanks to info from Daybeers.


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## ja5151 (May 16, 2022)

That chart is really helpful. I appreciate being able to see all of the possible bucket prices in one place.

I have 88,000 AGR points and am always looking for lower bucket fares on the roomettes (on the western LD trains), although it seems they've been near impossible to find lately. Is there any "sweet spot" of X number of months ahead of time where you're more likely to find a good deal?

Believe it or not, early last year I was able to book 2 roomettes for 4 people, using a single Companion Coupon code to give 2 of us a free ride. Which is weird because everyone tells me that you can never use coupons when redeeming AGR points. Maybe it was a glitch in the system when they were extending coupons due to COVID?


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## niemi24s (May 17, 2022)

ja5151 said:


> That chart is really helpful. I appreciate being able to see all of the possible bucket prices in one place.


Thanks for the kind words.


> Is there any "sweet spot" of X number of months ahead of time where you're more likely to find a good deal?


Nowadays, for most trains, it seems like low bucket fares are only available within a few days of departure and then mainly for Roomettes. There are some trains (Crescent and Zephyr come to mind) where Bedrooms are consistently high bucket anytime during the 11 month availability period. 

And as Arrow limits searches to about 30 consecutive single day searches before halting the process with its...


> We've experienced an unknown error. Try again later or call us at 1-800-USA-RAIL.


... searching all 11 months for a low bucket fare is an absolutely mind-numbing process.


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## joelkfla (May 18, 2022)

niemi24s said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> 
> Nowadays, for most trains, it seems like low bucket fares are only available within a few days of departure and then mainly for Roomettes. There are some trains (Crescent and Zephyr come to mind) where Bedrooms are consistently high bucket anytime during the 11 month availability period.
> 
> ...


H-rooms on the Silver Star at the handicapped rate dropped about 3 weeks before the departure date. I didn't check Roomettes, but I would guess they probably dropped at the same time.


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## niemi24s (May 18, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> H-rooms on the Silver Star at the handicapped rate dropped about 3 weeks before the departure date. I didn't check Roomettes, but I would guess they probably dropped at the same time.


It's pure folly to guess about Amtrak fares. A crude spot check just now for Roomettes on the Silver Star indicates they're first offered at the low bucket rate of $492 and remain at low bucket until several weeks before departure - then rise a bucket or two.

You can't always sometimes tell what you least expect to happen the most.


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## jis (May 18, 2022)

niemi24s said:


> It's pure folly to guess about Amtrak fares. A crude spot check just now for Roomettes on the Silver Star indicates they're first offered at the low bucket rate of $492 and remain at low bucket until several weeks before departure - then rise a bucket or two.
> 
> You can't always sometimes tell what you least expect to happen the most.


Right. In general it is possible to get a RT from Florida to New York for around $1000 in Roomette. I have noiw traveled at that fare point a couple of times, and will be doing again around the last weekend of June.


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## Michigan Mom (May 18, 2022)

I'm looking at 2 Roomettes for 3 of us on the Star but boarding out of Raleigh, NC instead of Washington DC, later this summer. It's significantly less and looking like an attractive option.


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## niemi24s (May 21, 2022)

New and much faster computer makes fare searches less tiresome, so found the following trains were the only ones for which all sleeper fares were initially offered at high bucket in both travel directions for travel on either 19 or 20 April 2023: LSL (NYP or BOS), CS, EB (SEA or PDX), CL and AT.

Only the TE, SL and CRES lacked any high bucket offerings on those dates, the farthest out.

Note that this is a time-sensitive snapshot of fares - could be all different tomorrow.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 3, 2022)

Just a short note, if booking through on multiple trains there IS a break on the rail fares. On my upcoming trip in November between NYP-SEA, the two segments LSL and EB come up to 1740 searched separately (all high bucket now). If booked on one reservation, even if booked as separate segments on Multi-City, it comes up to 1705, difference all in rail fare, no change in accommodation charges. It only works on a direct, same day connection. If you want to layover (always the safe option), you'll be hit with the full rail fare.

BTW, since still 6 months out, I am still monitoring, hoping for Amtrak yield managers to reallocate some inventory out of high bucket since we just entered the period when they might do it. I am kinda willing to accept high bucket for the LSL, since it so often is, not so much for the Builder.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 3, 2022)

Also, one little, and obvious, trick to check whether they have actually _sold _space when it is high buckets is to put more travelers and select a roomette for each (it'll default to 2 in each, but you can add roomettes up to the number in the party). The max appears to be 8 on one web reservation attempt.

I just tried this on the Builder for my November trip and there are at least 8 roomettes available on that date. Given that the train is likely only running one revenue sleeper and a transdorm, that means out of 18 possible roomettes (14 in 30, 4 in transdorm) at most 10 have sold, which I do not find likely this far out. So I will continue to take my chances on waiting.

I may try to trick it and log on using one device on my VPN and another on my home network and try a second reservation while the first is in process and possibly holding the rooms. I don't know if they block space while a reservation is actively underway or not, but it is an interesting experiment. Possibly I'll try it on a train like the Eagle where I know there is only one sleeper with rooms blocked for crew. That should show me (if I can do 8 on one and 8 on the other, then I will know it doesn't hold rooms on an in process reservation, since there aren't 16 roomettes on the Eagle.)


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## zetharion (Jun 21, 2022)

Westbound Zephyr is never coming off high bucket this year is it?


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## PaunchyPirate (Jun 21, 2022)

zetharion said:


> Westbound Zephyr is never coming off high bucket this year is it?



October 18th has roomettes for $804 right now. That’s the only date I tried in October.


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## zetharion (Jun 21, 2022)

PaunchyPirate said:


> October 18th has roomettes for $804 right now. That’s the only date I tried in October.


Yeah I found one on the 7th for $804 but I would spend that in hotels waiting for an affordable option from EMY back to DAL. Sorry, didn't mean to de-rail the thread.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 21, 2022)

zetharion said:


> Yeah I found one on the 7th for $804 but I would spend that in hotels waiting for an affordable option from EMY back to DAL. Sorry, didn't mean to de-rail the thread.


Based on my luck that my watchful waiting for my NYP-EVR trip turned out, now booked, with fares inventory being allocated from all high bucket to lowest bucket on the Lake Shore and second lowest on the Builder, I did a check on days in October that the Zephyr arrives in Emeryville one day before the Sunset/Eagle leaves LAX. It appears that some inventory reallocation has taken place, because the fares vary quite a bit now:

10/2 high bucket
10/4 high bucket
10/6 second highest bucket
10/9 high bucket
10/11 middle bucket
10/13 middle bucket
10/16 middle bucket
10/18 middle bucket
10/20 second lowest bucket
10/23 second lowest bucket
10/25 second lowest bucket
10/27 second lowest bucket
10/30 low bucket

To me, that indicates at least a first round of inventory distribution adjustment has taken place. Only 3 of 13 departures are now high bucket.

I don't know your planned itinerary, but October and November now appear to have been reallocated and it is the time to strike if any of the middle or second lowest bucket dates appeal to you. They typically only have a couple of rooms in the lowest allocated bucket, and I would never hold out waiting for a low bucket when a second lowest is available. Of course, you could score on 10/30.

That kind of search is what is needed to track down good fares. Amsnag made such searches easy, now they have to be done by hand. It isn't worth doing until there is a good chance that they've done an inventory adjustment after the initial allocation, spot checks are good enough in the first few months.


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## zetharion (Jun 21, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> Based on my luck that my watchful waiting for my NYP-EVR trip turned out, now booked, with fares inventory being allocated from all high bucket to lowest bucket on the Lake Shore and second lowest on the Builder, I did a check on days in October that the Zephyr arrives in Emeryville one day before the Sunset/Eagle leaves LAX. It appears that some inventory reallocation has taken place, because the fares vary quite a bit now:
> 
> 10/2 high bucket
> 10/4 high bucket
> ...


Thank you, I can probably make that 10/20 date work.


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## PaunchyPirate (Jun 22, 2022)

I also just took advantage of low buckets in the fall. I just booked Southwest Chief from CHI to LAX, Coast Starlight from LAX to EMY, and California Zephyr from EMY to CHI. Dates are 10/26 to 11/1. Roomettes for all 3 segments. Low bucket pricing for the long segments. I didn't pay attention to the CS bucket, since I wasn't going the full distance. Total trip for $1458. Not bad at all.

I debated on whether to just go with Business Class for the CS segment since it's just 12 hours. But since it was only $272, I decided to splurge on the roomette. I may need a nap at some point.


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## trimetbusfan (Sep 16, 2022)

Looks like there the bucket prices might be changing. Just went and looked prices on the Coast Starlight and was shocked to see how high some of the prices were. 

Highest bucket:
Roomette: originally $765 now $846 
Bedroom: originally $1626 now $1776
FB: originally $1325 now $1402 
(These probably require additional verification). 

I also looked at fares for the Empire Builder and a few other routes, but those appear to be the same as they have been (for now at least).


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## niemi24s (Sep 18, 2022)

Right you are! Now all we need to do is wait for the other shoe(s) to drop (figuratively speaking).


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## niemi24s (Sep 23, 2022)

FWIW, according to the fare bucket charts the last increase occurred sometime between May and November 2021 and affected all LD trains.


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## niemi24s (Oct 5, 2022)

While in the process of finding the new fare buckets for the CS, discovered that the rail fare portion of sleeper fares now seems to be based on the _third_ Coach bucket above the Saver fare instead of the customary second bucket above the Saver fare. 

This change plus the increases in accommodation charges have seen the average Roomette fare on the CS for one adult increase by about 20%.

Have yet to see any fare changes on the other LD trains, but I only churn up enough ambition to look a few times a month.


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## niemi24s (Oct 13, 2022)

Here's a chart with the only new CS fares I could find. No idea why there were 6 Bedroom fares instead of the usual 5.


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## trimetbusfan (Oct 13, 2022)

niemi24s said:


> Here's a chart with the only new CS fares I could find. No idea why there were 6 Bedroom fares instead of the usual 5.
> 
> View attachment 29896


Thanks for putting this together. Sad to see even the low bucket is up over $150 for a roommate and over $200 more in a bedroom.


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## trimetbusfan (Oct 15, 2022)

niemi24s said:


> Here's a chart with the only new CS fares I could find. No idea why there were 6 Bedroom fares instead of the usual 5.
> 
> View attachment 29896


I was playing around and there appears to be a seventh(?) bedroom bucket. $991 for a bedroom SEA-LAX on 6/1. I will insert an app screenshot but website quoted the same price.


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## niemi24s (Oct 15, 2022)

Thanks for that input. Wonder how many different Bedroom buckets there really are? Maybe there's an additional Roomette bucket lurking somewhere.

Noticed somewhat the same thing last year for NER 66/67, but then the sleeper was pulled from that train. (I keep forgetting to delete that train from the chart).


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## pennyk (Oct 16, 2022)

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Amtrak long distance fares 2021/2022


I know we've had a number of posts regarding Amtrak sleeper prices, and I do appreciate that, in times where everything is getting pricey, Amtrak sleepers have priced themselves beyond many of us. But, here is one little data point: We are taking our nine year old daughter to Disneyland from...




www.amtraktrains.com





Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


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## trimetbusfan (Nov 4, 2022)

niemi24s said:


> Here's a chart with the only new CS fares I could find. No idea why there were 6 Bedroom fares instead of the usual 5.


Found an eighth(!) bedroom bucket and a second family bedroom bucket (finally). I wonder if either of these (particularly the bedroom) is the low bucket.

This is for 11 (6).


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## niemi24s (Nov 7, 2022)

Thanks for those two new fares. As a WAG, methinks the $936 Family Bedroom fare is the _second_ lowest bucket. Maybe.


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## trimetbusfan (Nov 30, 2022)

Found one of the ‘missing’ family bedroom buckets for the SWC.


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## trimetbusfan (Nov 30, 2022)

trimetbusfan said:


> Found an eighth(!) bedroom bucket and a second family bedroom bucket (finally). I wonder if either of these (particularly the bedroom) is the low bucket.
> 
> This is for 11 (6).
> View attachment 30280




And here’s another family bedroom bucket for the CS. $1263.


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## niemi24s (Nov 30, 2022)

Thanks for those additional fares.

Other than the CS having 8 Bedroom buckets (3 more than the norm), the other strange thing (to me, at least) is its buckets increase in a roughly geometric progression (ratio between successive steps nearly equal) whereas those of other trains increase in a roughly arithmetic progression (_difference_ between successive steps nearly equal).

How 'bout them apples!!!!


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## niemi24s (Dec 14, 2022)

This version has what seems to be the latest known buckets for the Coast Starlight. No estimates were made for the other Family Bedroom buckets.


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## DaveW (Dec 15, 2022)

Are there days of the week or days in advance of trip that have lower fares? or is it random like rolling dice?


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## Ryan (Dec 15, 2022)

Somewhat random, with some logic. Here's the "Fares 101" level of my understanding, I'm sure others will be along shortly to throw rocks. Some may tell you that it's no better than a random number generator, but be assured there are Real People, looking at Real Data that we're not privy to making adjustments as time goes on, and those people probably aren't complete fools. There's logic there, even if it's sometimes maybe poor logic or invisible logic.

In the Good Old Days, nearly every train opened 11 months out at low bucket, which meant the early bird truly got the worm. As Amtrak's revenue management gained some rudimentary sophistication, they realized that "hey, this train for the day before Thanksgiving is almost certainly going to sell out, so why are we selling tickets at low bucket?" and fares would open 11 months out at a higher level.

As time passed, this became more and more widespread, and at this point it's more like "open high, if it sells slowly we can lower them and sell tickets 5-6 months out". Sometimes that happens, and sometimes because of demand the prices just stay high and they successfully sell the train out at higher fare levels (particularly in this day and age of reduced capacity).

As far as days of the week, I'm not sure that there's enough of a "rule" there to count on. Variability for the specific train and the specific dates probably overshadows any specific rule on dates.

The general algorithm for "how can I increase my odds of traveling Amtrak on the cheap(ish)" is to look at these charts (or a scattering of fares for the endpoints you're looking at if you're not riding end to end) to get a sense of what the range of prices for your particular journey are. Start watching fares as early as you can for the time period when you're traveling. Buy tickets when they're available at a price you're willing o pay. Continue watching fares. If they go down, call Amtrak and ask that the fare be adjusted to the lower rate on offer at the current time. If they don't go down, live in the satisfaction that you probably didn't miss out on a cheaper fare and enjoy your trip!


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## fdaley (Dec 15, 2022)

Ryan said:


> Start watching fares as early as you can for the time period when you're traveling.


This is really the key, and also, if your dates of travel are somewhat flexible, check every departure within a week or 10 days of when you'd ideally like to go. 

My general impression is that Amtrak now opens reservations 11 months out at a mid-level price bucket for all rooms, and the price then goes up to higher buckets as more rooms sell. But at some point or points three to six months out, they might switch to lower buckets on particular departures that aren't selling well. So that's the period when you might find comparative bargains.

On some routes at least, the starting price may be lower for November-April (excepting the holiday periods) if demand normally is lower at that time. Also, pricing for roomettes and bedrooms appears to be adjusted separately based on sales of each room type. So on a particular departure one can occasionally find a lower-bucket bedroom even when the roomettes have kicked up to higher prices, though more often bedrooms advance to higher buckets more quickly because the inventory is smaller.


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## jis (Dec 15, 2022)

Recently I bought a round trip to ALX from ORL over the last weekend of March. While I was watching the fares I saw them bounce up and down across three buckets over a short period of a week. Finally I grabbed the lowest bucket in the gyrations the best I could.


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## lordsigma (Dec 15, 2022)

jis said:


> Recently I bought a round trip to ALX from ORL over the last weekend of March. While I was watching the fares I saw them bounce up and down across three buckets over a short period of a week. Finally I grabbed the lowest bucket in the gyrations the best I could.


Star or Meteor?


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## jis (Dec 15, 2022)

lordsigma said:


> Star or Meteor?


Ultimately I got Star because the times suited better, Arriving ALX Sunday afternoon and departing ALX Wednesday afternoon. But both trains' fares were jumping around.


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## niemi24s (Dec 15, 2022)

DaveW said:


> Are there days of the week or days in advance of trip that have lower fares? or is it random like rolling dice?


After about seven years of messing with fares I'm not into making any sort of prediction. Some don't seem to fluctuate at all and others jump around like a flea on a hot brick.


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## niemi24s (Dec 28, 2022)

Redacted


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