# High-Altitude Medical Issues on Zephyr?



## lthanlon (Jun 18, 2010)

When I worked at the Rock Springs Rocket-Miner newspaper many years ago, we'd often run stories about people being taken off the San Francisco Zephyr in Rock Springs or Green River for medical assistance due to the altitude. I don't seem to read too much about this these days. Are afflicted passengers given oxygen on board or are those susceptible more likely to be under treatment already?


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 18, 2010)

Seriously? Then again half the folks in my sleeping car looked like they could use some oxygen at sealevel. The only train I thought had these sorts of concerns for healthy people was that Tibetian train built by China. How many other trains have this problem?


----------



## hippyman (Jun 18, 2010)

I've never had any issues with altitude on a train before, but I havent been on the CZ yet. The only problems I have are when I fly, and when I got up in the mountains in new mexico, on one trip, I lost roughly 20 hours. Should I have reason for concern, when I go on this route?


----------



## MrEd (Jun 18, 2010)

I think people are taken from trains, boats and planes for medical issues all the time. I don't think any special going on for this train, but then again the toilets don't work at altitude.


----------



## George Harris (Jun 18, 2010)

the following is from a map showing high and low elevations along Union Pacific routes. It is publically available on their company web site.

Hare are the high point numbers along the CZ route, going east to west:

Eelevation - Location - Milepost & from where

Between Denver and Salt Lake City

9239 ft - Moffet Tunnel CO - 52.85 miles from Denber

7440 ft - Summit UT - 651.40 - from Denver via the original D&RGW route via Pueblo

West of Salt Lake City

5901 ft - Hogans Tunnel UT - 753.69 miles from Oakland CA via the Western Pacific route

5096 ft - Elko NV - 559.3 miles from Oakland CA via the Southern Pacific Route

6997 ft - Norden CA - 192.50 miles from Oakland CA via Southern Pacific route - Summit of the Sierras

The lowest of the transcontinental routes is the Sunset Limited route, which even gets below Sea Level

-205 ft - Forum CA - 612.0 miles from San Francisco - this point is along the Salton Sea in southern Calif. Yes, it is below sea level

5078 ft - Paisano TX - 619.26 miles from Houston TX (between Del Rio and El Paso)

The Moffet tunnel is the third longest railroad tunnel in the US. The longest two are both on the route of the Empire Builder


----------



## lthanlon (Jun 18, 2010)

I probably should have noted that we weren't running taken-off-the train stories every week or even every month -- but several times a year. Most of the folks seem to have been taken off in Green River rather than Rock Springs -- maybe because the train stopped there longer?

For relatively small towns, such things were fairly big news.


----------



## Larry H. (Jun 18, 2010)

When we took the CZ a couple years ago when the train got to the highest point my mother had just sat down for lunch when she got a horrendous nose bleed. I was able to get her back to her room and for three hours we struggled to get it to quit. The crew said that people often had problems with nose bleeds due to the altitude. I ask the conductor about the possibility of having a EMT meet us to try to get it to stop but of course they would have required us to detain and all the reservations we had for hotels and trains would have been shot.. Plus being now stuck in a small remote mountain town. Had it not stopped much sooner we would have probably had to get off and have her treated as it was very disturbing to see the force with which it kept coming.. Eventually it did stop but it gave us somewhat of a fear of returning on the SC but it turned out to be uneventful luckily. Another young woman on the same train also had issues in denver as well as in the mountains with nose bleeds as well, but I sort of chalked it up to old age and weak blood vessels.

I would say that the crew was fairly helpful and later provided us lunch in the room. No one exactly had a good plan for what to do but did provide us with towels an a bucket to clean them in.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 18, 2010)

The advice I've received for nosebleeds is counter-intuitive but seems to work well. Hold a napkin or towel to your nose and then just point your chin down into your chest and cut-off the flow. Once I knew about that it's never been much of a problem since. Give it a try next time you or someone you know gets one.


----------



## sunchaser (Jun 19, 2010)

A cold wet cloth applied to the back of the neck sometimes works. You need to lay down with your chin up.


----------



## jis (Jun 19, 2010)

George Harris said:


> Elevation - Location - Milepost & from whereBetween Denver and Salt Lake City
> 
> 9239 ft - Moffet Tunnel CO - 52.85 miles from Denber
> 
> ...


Just for reference, in general the air pressure in airliner cabins is equivalent to somewhere around 7000' altitude. So the air at Moffatt Tunnel is definitely noticeably thinner than in an airliner cabin.

For comparison Lhasa is about 11,500'. The Trans-Tibet Quingzang Railway does rise to some 16,600' on the way and over 80%% of it is above 12,000'.


----------



## railiner (Jun 19, 2010)

hippyman said:


> I've never had any issues with altitude on a train before, but I havent been on the CZ yet. The only problems I have are when I fly, and when I got up in the mountains in new mexico, on one trip, I lost roughly 20 hours. Should I have reason for concern, when I go on this route?


Unless you undertake some strenuous activity while at the higher elevations, I don't think you will notice the thinner air. Just sitting and gazing at the spectacular scenery should present no problem.


----------



## Michael061282 (Jun 19, 2010)

The only altitude problem that I have ever had on the Zephyr is with a bag of potato chips that burst halfway through Moffett Tunnel once.


----------



## lthanlon (Jun 19, 2010)

Michael061282 said:


> The only altitude problem that I have ever had on the Zephyr is with a bag of potato chips that burst halfway through Moffett Tunnel once.


Hah! Growing up in Denver, I found that safety seals over consumer products shipped from lower altitudes were sometimes taut, but nothing ever exploded. Makes you wonder about soda and beer bottles and/or cans. I imagine they must be sealed at a pressure level to accommodate multiple elevations.

A friend who tended bar in Colorado always claimed that people unaccustomed to higher elevations get intoxicated quicker. I don't know whether this is true or just an urban legend.


----------



## jis (Jun 19, 2010)

lthanlon said:


> A friend who tended bar in Colorado always claimed that people unaccustomed to higher elevations get intoxicated quicker. I don't know whether this is true or just an urban legend.


I know I got intoxicated quicker while drinking Great Wall Red Wine in Lhasa, but that is neither here nor there, because that Red wine had more alcohol content than your regular wine that we are familiar here with does.


----------



## MikeM (Jun 19, 2010)

lthanlon said:


> When I worked at the Rock Springs Rocket-Miner newspaper many years ago, we'd often run stories about people being taken off the San Francisco Zephyr in Rock Springs or Green River for medical assistance due to the altitude. I don't seem to read too much about this these days. Are afflicted passengers given oxygen on board or are those susceptible more likely to be under treatment already?


Rock Springs, eh? And you left to go to Chicago? :unsure:

Hey, just kidding. I grew up in Green River, your former neighbor to the west. When were you out there?

One thought, back to the thread, I wonder if maybe part of the issue could have been dehydration when Amtrak ran the older steam heat cars? Particularly on the westbound run, passengers would have spent the whole time from Rawlins on to Rock Springs traveling through the Red Desert area, which is high, dry, and if the A/C wasn't working real well, miserable to travel through. Beautiful though, in it's own way. (Probably takes being a native to appreciate it!).

I checked this link which indicated the highest point on the UP mainline across Wyoming was 7,290 feet, which is less than the Colorado line taken today. Then again, there may be a higher "average" altitude between Cheyenne and Rock Springs, but I am just speculating.


----------



## lthanlon (Jun 19, 2010)

MikeM said:


> I grew up in Green River, your former neighbor to the west. When were you out there?


I worked as a reporter and photographer in Rock Springs from 1976-78. I quit the paper to undertake a freelance screenwriting project the week before the Ed Cantrell incident.


----------



## MikeM (Jun 20, 2010)

lthanlon said:


> MikeM said:
> 
> 
> > I grew up in Green River, your former neighbor to the west. When were you out there?
> ...


Fun times, weren't they? And that then lead to Dan Rather and 60 minutes showing up in Rock Springs, terming the city "Sin City USA". Meanwhile, Green River was comparatively boring, with the Green River Star featuring, at one point, the news story "Sheep Jump through Court House Windows", when during a harsh winter local dogs chased sheep through the windows. Not quite as exciting as widespread city corruption, shootings, prostitution rings, etc....


----------



## lthanlon (Jun 20, 2010)

MikeM said:


> Fun times, weren't they? And that then lead to Dan Rather and 60 minutes showing up in Rock Springs, terming the city "Sin City USA". Meanwhile, Green River was comparatively boring, with the Green River Star featuring, at one point, the news story "Sheep Jump through Court House Windows", when during a harsh winter local dogs chased sheep through the windows. Not quite as exciting as widespread city corruption, shootings, prostitution rings, etc....


You said it. I have a photo around here somewhere I shot of Dan Rather strutting his way up Broadway while being filmed. But I liked the trains even then. One of my most vivid memories is of sitting at the Rock Springs station on an icy February morning and watching a long, long Union Pacific freight train head east with car after car of Pacific Fruit Express.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 21, 2010)

lthanlon said:


> A friend who tended bar in Colorado always claimed that people unaccustomed to higher elevations get intoxicated quicker. I don't know whether this is true or just an urban legend.


This is true, at higher elevations the effects of liquor are increased. Makes for a lower bar bill at the end of the night, assuming you know what to expect.


----------



## AAARGH! (Jun 21, 2010)

lthanlon said:


> When I worked at the Rock Springs Rocket-Miner newspaper many years ago, we'd often run stories about people being taken off the San Francisco Zephyr in Rock Springs or Green River for medical assistance due to the altitude. I don't seem to read too much about this these days. Are afflicted passengers given oxygen on board or are those susceptible more likely to be under treatment already?


Typically, humans start to become hypoxic (effects of altitude) at around 13,000 feet. The FAA requires pilots of unpressurized aricraft to have supplimental oxygen at 12,500 feet and higher.

So given that Amtrak doesn't go above 8,000', I would not think they need to carry any supplimental oxygen.


----------



## PRR 60 (Jun 21, 2010)

AAARGH! said:


> ...So given that Amtrak doesn't go above 8,000', I would not think they need to carry any supplimental oxygen.


Moffat Tunnel, the highest point reached by Amtrak, is at elevation 9242. Add eight feet for the upper deck of a Superliner: five more feet for an upper berth.


----------



## AAARGH! (Jun 21, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> AAARGH! said:
> 
> 
> > ...So given that Amtrak doesn't go above 8,000', I would not think they need to carry any supplimental oxygen.
> ...


Indeed. My mistake. But my point still stands.


----------



## jis (Jun 21, 2010)

AAARGH! said:


> Typically, humans start to become hypoxic (effects of altitude) at around 13,000 feet. The FAA requires pilots of unpressurized aricraft to have supplimental oxygen at 12,500 feet and higher.


Humans become hypoxic above 13,000' if they have not acclimatized. With proper acclimatization I believe they can carry on without getting hypoxic upto quite high altitudes. I personally have been upto 18,000' without becoming hypoxic, but I got to acclimatize at 15,000' overnight and did not stay overnight at 18,000' a little above Khardung La. Just trecked up from Khardung La, walked about for a few hours and then came down. OTOH people who come up from Manali at 6,400'' straight upto Sarchu at 14,000' and try to overnight there often get quite sick. The Indian Army maintains a medical post with hyperbaric chambers to deal with this flow of tourists with hypoxia. I have overnighted at Sarchu on a memorable freezing night with howling winds coming down from Baralach La Pass and a freezing drizzle falling, in the middle of summer of 2001, without any problem, since I had acclimatized at 12,000' before getting there.

I was mildly hypoxic when I traveled in a single day from Khasa/Zhangmu on the Nepal Tibet border at 7,500' to Tingri on the Tibetan Plateau at 14,000', on the way to Lhasa (Tibet) from Kathmandu (Nepal). Beautiful view of Himalayas and Mt. Everest from the north from Tingri (Mt. Everest is about quarter of the way in from the left edge of the picture). During the day we crossed several passes upto 17,000' high.

I believe FAA also requires one of the pilots to have their oxygen mask on when the plane cruises above 40,000' even with the cabin properly pressurized, so that they are able to deal with a sudden de-pressurization situation adequately.

Also incidentally, flights that are not landing on the Tibetan Plateau are not allowed to overfly it because the average altitude is 12,000'+. This makes it impossible for the aircraft to descend to around 7,000' as required in case of depressurization.


----------



## leemell (Jun 21, 2010)

jis said:


> AAARGH! said:
> 
> 
> > Typically, humans start to become hypoxic (effects of altitude) at around 13,000 feet. The FAA requires pilots of unpressurized aricraft to have supplimental oxygen at 12,500 feet and higher.
> ...


Hypoxia can occur at any altitude. It is affected by the body's condition, what you eat or drink and if you smoke. Some medical conditions can also affect the altitude of the onset of hypoxia, As for drinking and smoking: Smoking produces carbon monoxide, which sticks to hemoglobin much easier than oxygen. This reduces the hemoglobin available for transporting oxygen to the brain causing Hypemic Hypoxia - which is the inability of blood to carry oxygen.

Alcohol inhibits cells from having the ability to effectively use oxygen. This is called Cytotoxic Hypoxia. One ounce of alcohol = 2,000 feet of additional altitude on the body.

Nose bleeds are much more commonly caused by the very dry to extremely dry air at altitude rather then the lower pressure itself.

The FAA requires single pilots of pressurized planes to don the oxygen mask at 35,000 ft and two pilots at 41,000. Unpressurized planes must be piloted with oxygen above 12,500 feet.


----------



## sunchaser (Jun 21, 2010)

When we first moved to Salt Lake City, I would get regular nosebleeds. I'm pretty sure it was the combination of higher altitude & very dry climate. Haven't had the problem for a while now.


----------



## railiner (Jun 21, 2010)

The world's highest rail line recently completed between China and Tibet is over 16,000 feet. Passengers are provided with oxygen noseclips to use if they need it.

almost as high is some lines in the Andes of South America. These were completed and used I believe long before there was any thought or capability of providing oxygen to passengers.


----------



## Anita (Jun 24, 2010)

hippyman said:


> I've never had any issues with altitude on a train before, but I havent been on the CZ yet. The only problems I have are when I fly, and when I got up in the mountains in new mexico, on one trip, I lost roughly 20 hours. Should I have reason for concern, when I go on this route?


I was on the CZ last year, from Omaha to Emeryville and back. I have lung problems and also have difficulties in NM and flying. There were a couple of times that I felt lightheaded and had some difficulty breathing on the train trip - mainly around Moffat tunnel. But I kept my inhaler handy and just took it real easy and was ok. I probably should have taken some oxygen with me, but I feel a bit self-concious when I do.

anita


----------



## George Harris (Jun 24, 2010)

Anita said:


> I was on the CZ last year, from Omaha to Emeryville and back. I have lung problems and also have difficulties in NM and flying. There were a couple of times that I felt lightheaded and had some difficulty breathing on the train trip - mainly around Moffat tunnel. But I kept my inhaler handy and just took it real easy and was ok. I probably should have taken some oxygen with me, but I feel a bit self-concious when I do.
> anita


Anita:

Since I have a wife that can be one of the world's worst overpackers, I hate to say this: However in your case, for the oxyogen, I think you really need to operate on the, It is better to have it and not need it rather than to need it and not have it.

George


----------

