# European Overnight Trains



## Northwestern (Jan 29, 2022)

I have an interest in the European overnight trains, such as the Railjet train. 









11 Best Night trains in Europe & How to Use Them like a Pro


How to save money and time by booking a night train instead of a hotel. Common questions answered like "are they safe?"




is.gd





Another one, coming this summer, will be the "Flight Shame" train, Brussels to Prague:









You'll be able to get a night train from Brussels to Prague from 2022


The project aims to capitalise on surging demand for climate-friendly travel.




is.gd





Do you think the US might ever see an overnight train like the ones sprouting up in Europe? What routes would be feasible?

Richard


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 29, 2022)

European Sleeper - spoorwegmaatschappij speciaal voor nachttreinen


Eerste nachtrein is Brussel - Amsterdam - Berlijn. Wij zijn een nieuwe spoorwegmaatschappij speciaal voor nachttreinen.




www.europeansleeper.eu













Midnight Trains | Un hôtel sur rail


Le moyen de transport le plus confortable et le plus durable de notre époque.




www.midnight-trains.com


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## GAT (Jan 29, 2022)

I love the idea of overnight trains. I don’t know enough to comment on possible US routes, but it would be great if we had a good system.

I seriously considered taking a night train in Europe in 2019. I arrived in Paris to learn my host’s return from Africa had been delayed seven days. Rather than stay in a hotel in Paris, a city I know well, I decided to visit Tuscany for the first time. I particularly wanted to go to Montalcino, home of the famous Brunello wines. I considered taking Thello Paris – Florence, but decided I wanted to see all the countryside, so opted for TGV to Milan, transferring to Trenitalia high speed train to Florence. (Then I boarded a local train back to Sienna where I stayed the night before taking two local buses down to Montalcino.)

Now, having seen the countryside. I really want to try the Thello the next time. The article you posted says it has earned mixed reviews, but that's OK with me. I just want the experience.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 29, 2022)

Pretty sure Thello is dead. The night trains were converted to a day train, which has not survived the pandemic.






Paris to Venice by train from €49 | Train options explained!


How to travel from Paris to Venice by train, explaining routes, schedules, fares & how to buy tickets.



www.seat61.com


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## GAT (Jan 29, 2022)

Drat! COVID strikes again. Thanks for the info.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 29, 2022)

I think there was a previous discussion here, which I can't find, on potential overnight or "hotel" trains in the US, on the order of the NEC 65-66-67. You're looking at an 8-10 hour travel time. Maybe some shorter routes would be viable with a set-out sleeper or a very slowed-down schedule.

Here's my latest list.

1. Set-out sleeper in New York for NER 65-66-67. And if they're not going to sell sleeper tickets to Virginia points, it should be a set-out in Washington.
1a. New York - Buffalo
2. Washington - Atlanta
3. Pittsburgh - New York; also, Pittsburgh to Washington
4. New York -Montreal (plus a section that goes to Burlington, VT)
5. Chicago -Kansas City via St. Louis (with a set-out sleeper to/from St. Louis)
6. Chicago - St. Paul
7. Los Angeles - Oakland -Sacramento
8. Los Angeles - Phoenix - Tucson

I'm sure there are more possibilities. Some may not be practical (yet).


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## GAT (Jan 29, 2022)

I had thought of LA - Oakland/Sacramento, but discounted it because of the hoped-for completion of the high speed train.


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## Willbridge (Jan 30, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> I think there was a previous discussion here, which I can't find, on potential overnight or "hotel" trains in the US, on the order of the NEC 65-66-67. You're looking at an 8-10 hour travel time. Maybe some shorter routes would be viable with a set-out sleeper or a very slowed-down schedule.
> 
> Here's my latest list.
> 
> ...


Amtrak has run the NYP set-out sleeper and CHI<>MSP overnight service. I used the latter on a round-trip and it was handy. The wife of my boss used the set-out sleeper and found it solved a problem of a "first-thing" appointment in Manhattan. 


I don't think that either of these was well-known in their market and the equipment was Heritage fleet on the MSP run.


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## Thogo (Jan 30, 2022)

As a European, I know we have these night trains, but to be honest, I have never used any, and probably never will. I want to see countryside if travelling by train, no matter if I know the line already, or not. There was (until Covid) a weekly night train Paris-Moscow which was for a while the only night train stopping in my city. However, with high-speed trains everywhere in Europe there simply is not much need for overnight trains or sleepers. America is another story. First, the larger population centers are much further apart than in Europe (except for the NEC, maybe). That disables the possibility of a nationwide high-speed network, and enables on the other hand the need for sleeping car trains. The problem is, with the Amtrak schedule (let's take the pre-covid one), there is only one train on most long-distance routes. So there are always a lot of communities where the train stops in the middle of the night at totally inconvenient times. Use Cleveland, as the best worst example, maybe. Then there are large population centers that see just 3 trains a week each way. El Paso, Houston, Cincinnati, Indianapolis! That's pathetic. Period. To stay in the Sunset Limited and Cardinal corridors, there are the large cities like Columbus, Dayton, Phoenix, Brownsville/McAllen, etc. that don't even have any train service. So... Before thinking about night trains, one should seriously think about daytime trains first.


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## jiml (Jan 30, 2022)

Those who can read French and are interested in a detailed account of the current Euro overnight trains should check out AU's favorite reviewer _Simply Railway_'s new book:
Trains de nuit: 30 trajets inoubliables en Europe: Constant, Thibault: 9782742463398: Amazon.com: Books

He's hoping to have the English translation out early this year if there is a demand.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 30, 2022)

George said:


> I had thought of LA - Oakland/Sacramento, but discounted it because of the hoped-for completion of the high speed train.


Even with a high-speed rail system, there would still be a market for the service, just as 65-66-67 runs between Boston and Washington alongside the Acelas.


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## GAT (Jan 30, 2022)

Point taken, although the NEC has, I think, many more people and many more interim destinations (i.e. more demand) than on the California high speed route (IF it ever gets completed).


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## Northwestern (Jan 30, 2022)

I like the idea of an overnight train between Washington and Atlanta. I quite agree with the need to expand a 3X/week service, such as the Cardinal, to a daily train. Would an overnight train, on Cardinal route, from NY to Chicago work?

I've read some comments, on other forums, about an overnight train between LA-SF-SAC. We once had such, the Owl, Lark, and short-lived Spirit of Calif. That might work. Some have suggested, however, that the overnight train from LA to SF or SAC could connect with a day train along the Coast Starlight route, to Portland and Seattle. Living in the North Bay area, and speaking from a purely selfish standpoint, I would miss the present (Coast Starlight) overnight train to Oregon. A possible glimpse of Mr. Shasta in the early morning, as well as the trip through the lower Cascades in the morning. Also, a daylight train starting the SF or SAC would be a long trip in coach, too long a coach trip for me.

Possibly the best choice for an European-like overnight train would be along the 3 east-west long distance train routes, the Builder, Calif Zephyr, and SW Chief. 

Richard


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## jis (Jan 30, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> Possibly the best choice for an European-like overnight train would be along the 3 east-west long distance train routes, the Builder, Calif Zephyr, and SW Chief.
> 
> Richard


Most West European overnight trains are one nighters, a completely different breed from the American trans continentals. Those are more like East European and Russian overnight trains.


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## Willbridge (Jan 31, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> I like the idea of an overnight train between Washington and Atlanta. I quite agree with the need to expand a 3X/week service, such as the Cardinal, to a daily train. Would an overnight train, on Cardinal route, from NY to Chicago work?
> 
> I've read some comments, on other forums, about an overnight train between LA-SF-SAC. We once had such, the Owl, Lark, and short-lived Spirit of Calif. That might work. Some have suggested, however, that the overnight train from LA to SF or SAC could connect with a day train along the Coast Starlight route, to Portland and Seattle. Living in the North Bay area, and speaking from a purely selfish standpoint, I would miss the present (Coast Starlight) overnight train to Oregon. A possible glimpse of Mr. Shasta in the early morning, as well as the trip through the lower Cascades in the morning. Also, a daylight train starting the SF or SAC would be a long trip in coach, too long a coach trip for me.
> 
> ...


As a matter of fact, the former _Shasta Daylight _ran between Portland and Oakland as a coach and parlor car train. It was popular during the longer summer days, but the overnight _Cascade _did better on a year-round basis. The overnight train had better connections at both terminals. For Shasta Daylight Los Angeles connections there was a transfer at Martinez with the _Owl_, overnight through the San Joaquin Valley.

As in Europe, there are some places where an overnight train makes sense. I used them in Europe on trips where the fast daytime trains created the same miserable early morning departures as air schedules. As in the WAS<>NYP<>BOS case they add to the convenience of the fast daytime corridor service.


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## VentureForth (Jan 31, 2022)

I may have found one overnight train in Europe that is actually NOT as nice as Amtrak's LD trains. 

The Last SOVIET Train in Europe: Braving Moldova's PRIETENIA Train - YouTube


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## Exvalley (Jan 31, 2022)

Thogo said:


> As a European, I know we have these night trains, but to be honest, I have never used any, and probably never will. I want to see countryside if travelling by train, no matter if I know the line already, or not.


I take the opposite approach. An overnight train does two things for me:
1) It saves on a night in a hotel.
2) It allows me to travel when I am sleeping, which means that my daytimes can be used fully for sightseeing. When you have precious few vacation days, it's nice not to have to lose a day or two due to travel.


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## PeeweeTM (Jan 31, 2022)

I'm totally with Thogo.
And I totally understand Exvalley.

There should be trains enough to provide service to both types of costumers.


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## daybeers (Jan 31, 2022)

PeeweeTM said:


> There should be trains enough to provide service to both types of costumers.


100%!!


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## MARC Rider (Jan 31, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> I may have found one overnight train in Europe that is actually NOT as nice as Amtrak's LD trains.
> 
> The Last SOVIET Train in Europe: Braving Moldova's PRIETENIA Train - YouTube


Funny, Bucharest doesn't look to be much worse shape than New York, circa 1975. It seems they've even imported graffiti artists from New York to tag the various walls and such. The globalization of culture is now everywhere!


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## jis (Jan 31, 2022)

I don't know how it is now, but graffiti in Paris used to be quite spectacular, as also was the case in Moscow in the early post Soviet years. Berlin also had some quality ones.

My introduction to quality Russian graffiti was from the Leo Tolstoy, a very nice overnight service from Helsinki to Moscow, which happened to be held near the Ostenkino TV Tower to allow a late running Krasnaya Strela (Red Star) from St. Petersburg to overtake us and arrive in Leningradsii ahead of us. And there on the walls of the Ostenkino compund were beautiful graffiti artwork.


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## Exvalley (Jan 31, 2022)

jis said:


> I don't know how it is now, but graffiti in Paris used to be quite spectacular, as also was the case in Moscow in the early post Soviet years. Berlin also had some quality ones.


And don't forget Rome. It's everywhere there.


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## Willbridge (Feb 1, 2022)

It used to be political. When my veterans' group goes back to Berlin, someone always waxes nostalgic for the days when graffiti just spelled right out what it meant (sometimes what the artist thought of us).


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## slasher-fun (Feb 1, 2022)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Pretty sure Thello is dead. The night trains were converted to a day train, which has not survived the pandemic.


Not exactly (but that doesn't change the outcome): Thello was operating a night train, Paris-Milan-Venice, and a non-high-speed daytime train, Marseille-Nice-Milan. Both have been discontinued, and Thello has been renamed Trenitalia France (Trentalia has been their sole owner since 2016). They now operate Frecciarossa high-speed trains, 2x daily Paris-Lyon-Milan, plus soon additionnally 3x daily Paris-Lyon.


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## slasher-fun (Feb 1, 2022)

For those who'd like, Europe : Night Trains has an up-to-date map of night trains in Europe (only solid lines are night trains, dashed lines are daytime)


http://www.night-trains.com/files/night-trains-europe-map.png


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## Lonnie (Feb 1, 2022)

slasher-fun said:


> For those who'd like, Europe : Night Trains has an up-to-date map of night trains in Europe (only solid lines are night trains, dashed lines are daytime)
> 
> 
> http://www.night-trains.com/files/night-trains-europe-map.png


Whaa? There's no longer any train service at all from Madrid to the Transcantábrico through Burgos? Or even via Barcelona? Decades ago I took my most memorable night train Madrid-Gijón right over the Picos de Europa, then a couple months later the narrow gauge "FEVE" all the way to Irún-Hendaye.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 1, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> I may have found one overnight train in Europe that is actually NOT as nice as Amtrak's LD trains.
> 
> The Last SOVIET Train in Europe: Braving Moldova's PRIETENIA Train - YouTube


I think that ride would be worth it just to experience the gauge change. While it didn't look like the most comfortable ride, the cars looked pretty clean. Apparently, no food service, either. The border formalities were something else, too. Passport control and customs as separate services? Score one for the US CBP, at least they combine both functions with one functionary. Also, you don't need to deal with them when you leave the US. I'd be real antsy about having my passport taken out of my sight at border crossings, but I guess if one wants to travel around the world, one has to be prepared for such things.

The other thing was that Kishinev actually looked nicer than a lot of American Rust Belt Cities (or even parts of my own city, Baltimore.)


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## Joe from PA (Feb 1, 2022)

Graffiti was "invented" in ancient Rome as a way of speaking out. But I did not know that before traveling to 23 different countries over the years. It's fairly common.


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## Thogo (Feb 1, 2022)

Exvalley said:


> I take the opposite approach. An overnight train does two things for me:
> 1) It saves on a night in a hotel.
> 2) It allows me to travel when I am sleeping, which means that my daytimes can be used fully for sightseeing. When you have precious few vacation days, it's nice not to have to lose a day or two due to travel.



Well, ok, I didn't think about that 2) part, sorry. (I live in a country that mandates 4 vacation weeks per year by law, and larger employers give 6 full weeks, so that has never been an issue.) 

And I have to clarify that I did ride trains over night a lot, but it wasn't sleeping-car trains, just normal coach daytime trains that happened to run over night (sometimes there are time constraints that make it necessary to go over night, especially on business trips). And for one night, coach is just fine. I just wouldn't want to do a two-night trip in coach. That's where I see a market for sleeping cars in Europe. Like the good old Orient Express (Paris-Istanbul), or the Paris/London-Moscow route, or Stockholm-Rome, things like that. Of course, if you run trains with a locomotive and separable cars, you can always add a sleeper to a normal train that runs over night. But nowadays, most trains in Europe are EMU sets where you just can't add or remove a car easily.


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## Exvalley (Feb 1, 2022)

Thogo said:


> Well, ok, I didn't think about that 2) part, sorry. (I live in a country that mandates 4 vacation weeks per year by law, and larger employers give 6 full weeks, so that has never been an issue.)


I am fortunate enough to get four weeks per year - but those days are still precious to me!


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 1, 2022)

Lonnie said:


> Whaa? There's no longer any train service at all from Madrid to the Transcantábrico through Burgos? Or even via Barcelona? Decades ago I took my most memorable night train Madrid-Gijón right over the Picos de Europa, then a couple months later the narrow gauge "FEVE" all the way to Irún-Hendaye.


That's not _all _service - plenty isn't shown on it.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 1, 2022)

Joe from PA said:


> Graffiti was "invented" in ancient Rome as a way of speaking out. But I did not know that before traveling to 23 different countries over the years. It's fairly common.


Pompei apparently has plenty of it (never been myself) - some of it quite explicit.


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## slasher-fun (Feb 2, 2022)

Lonnie said:


> Whaa? There's no longer any train service at all from Madrid to the Transcantábrico through Burgos? Or even via Barcelona? Decades ago I took my most memorable night train Madrid-Gijón right over the Picos de Europa, then a couple months later the narrow gauge "FEVE" all the way to Irún-Hendaye.


Renfe has discontinued all Trenhotels services, only "luxury" trains remain.



Metra Electric Rider said:


> That's not _all _service - plenty isn't shown on it.


Can you tell which, so that the author can add them on the map?


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## Lonnie (Feb 3, 2022)

slasher-fun said:


> Renfe has discontinued all Trenhotels services, only "luxury" trains remain.
> 
> 
> Can you tell which, so that the author can add them on the map?


This map shows the full set of RENFE routes.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 3, 2022)

Long Distance does not mean sleeper service. The map in question is a attempt to plot out all sleeper equipped trains. He putting a lot of work in to keep it current. The network was downsizing, now in growth mode. Hard to keep track of everybody.


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## Lonnie (Feb 3, 2022)

And apparently the FEVE narrow gauge is still ambling across the north of Spain. I have such fond memories of those trips. I actually did ride it to Avilés in 1977 (see photo).


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## slasher-fun (Feb 4, 2022)

It is still running, but it's not and has never been an overnight train


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## Lonnie (Feb 4, 2022)

slasher-fun said:


> It is still running, but it's not and has never been an overnight train


Decidedly not! Last time I was on it was in the mid-90s and I'd say it was struggling to be considered as much as second class. But I wouldn't want to sleep through those views.


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## JWM (Feb 4, 2022)

Links for today and one for the future.

The Man in Seat 61 | The train travel guide 

Midnight Trains (midnight-trains.com)


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## Lonnie (Feb 6, 2022)

JWM said:


> Links for today and one for the future.
> 
> The Man in Seat 61 | The train travel guide
> 
> Midnight Trains (midnight-trains.com)


Thanks for the excellent links! The planning and anticipation is half the fun.


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## caravanman (Feb 6, 2022)

I very much enjoyed my hotels on wheels when riding the European night sleepers about 10 years ago. City Night Line was a German one, and I took others from Paris to Toulouse, Amsterdam to Copenhagen, Paris to Madrid, Madrid to Algeciras, and Paris to Rome amongst others. Sad to hear that many are no longer in service, but good to know some new start ups are planned.


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## cirdan (Feb 8, 2022)

Lonnie said:


> This map shows the full set of RENFE routes. View attachment 26998



What's the source of that map?

I'm surprised to see for example that Murcia to Lorca is not considered part of the long distance network, even though there are trains from Lorca to Barcelona and I think seasonally to Madrid as well. On the other hand Valencia to Gandia is considered LD even though it only gets local/commuter trains.

Confusingly Zaragoza to Huesca is marked as being a high speed line whereas in reality its just standard gauge, which RENFE's marketing department seems to believe is the same thing.


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## Lonnie (Feb 8, 2022)

cirdan said:


> What's the source of that map?


 This: 





__





New! Renfe Spain Pass – ACP Rail







www.acprail.com





Also RENFE's own website map of AVE and larga distancia:





__





Renfe line maps


Maps of AVE (high-speed), Larga Distancia (long-distance) and Media Distancia (mid-distance) line maps




www.renfe.com





I'm guessing only those on the ground would be able to tell how accurate RENFE's site is.


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## Willbridge (Feb 8, 2022)

cirdan said:


> What's the source of that map?
> ------
> 
> Confusingly Zaragoza to Huesca is marked as being a high-speed line whereas in reality its just standard gauge, which RENFE's marketing department seems to believe is the same thing.


It appears that one AVE turn runs up to Huesca in the evening, lays overnight and then returns to Zaragoza and beyond in the morning. When I rode this segment, it was in a wooden 3rd Class car, so there have been some improvements.

Pyrenees Crossing 1971


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## cirdan (Feb 9, 2022)

Lonnie said:


> And apparently the FEVE narrow gauge is still ambling across the north of Spain. I have such fond memories of those trips. I actually did ride it to Avilés in 1977 (see photo).
> View attachment 26999
> View attachment 27000



It's not just the narrow gauge that is missing off RENFE's maps but also many of the local and commuter lines. Their website is also a pain to use in this regard as you have to go onto a separate page to get information on these services and piece your journey together by yourself.

I'm a great fan of the Spanish narrow gauge.

Besides the FEVE and Euskotren systems in the North, there are various other narrow gauge systems and individual lines across most of Spain. For the most part these were part of the FEVE empire in the past, but many have been spun off to local governments over the years. In some cases this has led to massive investments and improvements. Back in the day FEVE were always chronically underfunded and had a bit of a reputation for their make do and mend attitude which helped many lines survive that would otherwise have been lost, but prevented them from thriving to their full potential. This is why many regional governments were keen on taking over the lines on their territory.

The formerly disconnected lines around Valencia have been joined up by a series of tunnels and developed into a very neat metro system. At least one broad gauge line has also been converted to meter gauge, and new lines are still being added. Despite the modernization of the central part, some of the outlying sections, such as Vilanueva de Castellon still emanate a lot of old time Spanish narrow gauge atmosphere and are well worth a visit.

The very scenic coastal line in Alicante line is also now a busy commuter route using streetcar-style lightweight trains. It has been extended into the middle of Alicante city by building a tunnel and various branches have been added for commuter service. In the longer term they want to extend the system to the airport. Quite a contrast to the sporadic beat up diesel railcar that crawled along rickety tracks when FEVE was in charge. Even if the old system was more romantic.

The Barcelona area also has some narrow gauge routes (which were never part of FEVE as far as I know) that mostly start from the Espanya terminus near Montjuic. The system includes various passenger / commuter routes but also some freight-only lines serving potash mines and the SEAT factory. Some parts of the system are highly scenic and one section has a steam train that is run for tourists on certain days. The system also includes the cog line to Montserrat which was rebuilt some time ago after several decades of abandonment.

Further north in the Pyrinees there is another cog railway serving Nuria, operated by FGC, the same people who run the Barcelona lines. This line has also been thoroughly modernized over the last 30 years or so.

Cartagena also has an interesting little narrow gauge line which is still officially FEVE as far as I know but is operated more or less autonomously from the rest of the former FEVE system. It's well worth visiting if you like industrial archaeology as it serves the ancient mining town of La Union and you can see several abandoned mines and remains of abandoned railroads from the train. I understand some of these are protected monuments and will not be dismantled. I believe there are longer-term plans to modernize and electrify the line as a commuter service and extend it. But right now it still has a lot of rickety old time narrow-gauge flair about it.

There is also a line serving Cotos in the Madrid area. I haven't visited this one yet.


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## Lonnie (Feb 9, 2022)

cirdan said:


> It's not just the narrow gauge that is missing off RENFE's maps but also many of the local and commuter lines. Their website is also a pain to use in this regard as you have to go onto a separate page to get information on these services and piece your journey together by yourself.
> 
> I'm a great fan of the Spanish narrow gauge.
> 
> ...


 You've convinced me that the only way to see Spain now is by rail! Wherever we manage to get back, the trip will be planned that way. Too bad we can't get TO Spain by rail!


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## Lonnie (Feb 9, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> It appears that one AVE turn runs up to Huesca in the evening, lays overnight and then returns to Zaragoza and beyond in the morning. When I rode this segment, it was in a wooden 3rd Class car, so there have been some improvements.
> 
> Pyrenees Crossing 1971


I just read that whole story. What a deep pleasure. Having lived in Spain a couple times in the late '70s, I could really relate to some of the references to fascist Spain as well as to the heartwarming hospitality that pops out of nowhere. 

Now those shot glasses... Were they possibly the ubiquitous Duralex Gigogne 3.1 oz glass tumbler? So useful for espresso, cortados and brandy! 




__





Duralex Gigogne Tumbler 3.1oz


Duralex Gigogne Tumbler 3.1oz



www.cookshopplus.com


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## daybeers (Feb 9, 2022)

Less-traveled, slower, classic lines are something the Seat61 website excels at giving advice for, of course along with the 200mph and overnight trains.


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## cirdan (Feb 10, 2022)

Lonnie said:


> I just read that whole story. What a deep pleasure. Having lived in Spain a couple times in the late '70s, I could really relate to some of the references to fascist Spain as well as to the heartwarming hospitality that pops out of nowhere.
> 
> Now those shot glasses... Were they possibly the ubiquitous Duralex Gigogne 3.1 oz glass tumbler? So useful for espresso, cortados and brandy!
> 
> ...



I agree.

My earliest childhood memories are of Spain in the 1970s as we had an elderly relative in the Murcia area. Poverty was still rampant at the time and people were very religious and would sometimes hand us children prayer cards. Outside of a handful of tourist resorts it was still quite rare to see foreign visitors in Spain at that time and we used to attract a lot of attention everywhere we went, and everybody wanted to ask us where we were from and where we were going and people would be very generous in helping us around. My earliest memories are of sleepy little towns with whitewashed houses and dusty streets and stray dogs, with old men in the cafes sipping their cortados, and women dressed mostly in black. Then there were the markets with fresh fruit piled high, a lot of types of fruit we had never seen or heard of before (back then). And the fishmongers with fish so fresh that it had been pulled out of the sea the same morning and that actually looked as if it was still alive.

Many rail lines would get two trains a day. One was the correo which I guess was so called because it also carried mail and typically ran early in the morning. The train was typically a jumble of older cars of different types with no air conditioning, and the tickets very cheap. Then there was the rapido or Talgo which would usually be a modern train with air conditioning and running at a more civilized hour, but the tickets would be much more pricey. There would always be some folks who either genuinely didn't understand the difference or tried their luck and I remember thinking train conductor must be the toughest job around as he was constantly having to argue with people about their tickets.

Once we travelled on dining car which I guess must have been a pre-war Wagons Lits or Pullman car, with lots of intricate art deco woodwork and marquetry and very soft armchair seats. The chef was preparing the food on a charcoal grill. Everything was cooked from scratch with fresh ingredients. It was quite the experience. We were thrilled that such a thing still existed but the Spaniards around us were ashamed of their backward country and apologized profusely.

Since then, the big cities have been modernized beyond recognition and those days seem like a very distant memory, but out in the deep countryside you can sometimes still find places that have stood still in time. The poverty is gone fortunately but the lifestyle hasn't. What I like to do is catch the slow train (they still exist, even if they're not as colorful as they once were) and then just get off at some place that takes my fancy. I've rarely regretted it.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 10, 2022)

cirdan said:


> it was still quite rare to see foreign visitors in Spain at that time and we used to attract a lot of attention everywhere we went, and everybody wanted to ask us where we were from and where we were going and people would be very generous in helping us around.


We forget how much less common international travel was back in the day. I remember going back to England in 1961 and how unusual it was for them to see a "yank" with my short American haircut, I was almost a celebrity. Especially in our sleepy little Essex hometown. The days when transatlantic travel was 12 hours or more in a prop plane and even international phone calls were $12 for 3 minutes, equivalent to about $100 today.


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## Lonnie (Feb 10, 2022)

cirdan said:


> I agree.
> 
> My earliest childhood memories are of Spain in the 1970s as we had an elderly relative in the Murcia area. Poverty was still rampant at the time and people were very religious and would sometimes hand us children prayer cards. Outside of a handful of tourist resorts it was still quite rare to see foreign visitors in Spain at that time and we used to attract a lot of attention everywhere we went, and everybody wanted to ask us where we were from and where we were going and people would be very generous in helping us around. My earliest memories are of sleepy little towns with whitewashed houses and dusty streets and stray dogs, with old men in the cafes sipping their cortados, and women dressed mostly in black. Then there were the markets with fresh fruit piled high, a lot of types of fruit we had never seen or heard of before (back then). And the fishmongers with fish so fresh that it had been pulled out of the sea the same morning and that actually looked as if it was still alive.
> 
> ...


Yes to all those details from the 70s! I was only on Tenerife at the time, but in a tiny fishing village. Also spent some time on Gomera, got to hear the silbo whistle language in the flesh. Awesome and erie experience. And ate gofio dry with sugar in it. Our friends were very poor. Alas, no train travel until later visits. I like the method you mention at the end. Any particular slow trains you'd recommend?


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## Willbridge (Feb 10, 2022)

The whole March 1971 trip was full of interesting details, but some were known to more people by then, so I just wrote up the best day. I did meet a few American tourists, including a college girl who was the cousin of my former next door neighbor!

The trip included two overnight segments in France, both in 2nd Class. I rode Paris>Nimes overnight in an obscure through car via Toulouse. To my amazement I was able to stretch out and sleep flat across the four seats. A French Marine took the other four and we both slept well.

Heading to the Pyrenees behind a SNCF Pacific...




The return from Pau to Paris via Bordeaux was more typical, sharing the compartment with seven French sailors.


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## cirdan (Feb 11, 2022)

Lonnie said:


> Yes to all those details from the 70s! I was only on Tenerife at the time, but in a tiny fishing village. Also spent some time on Gomera, got to hear the silbo whistle language in the flesh. Awesome and erie experience. And ate gofio dry with sugar in it. Our friends were very poor. Alas, no train travel until later visits. I like the method you mention at the end. Any particular slow trains you'd recommend?



The area I am most familiar with really is the east side, especially Valencia and Murcia. Some places that stick in my memory include:

- Villena, old castle dating to mooric times set between high craggy mountaintops. I think you can't go into the castle by yourself but they do guided tours and when I was there I was the only visitor so got a one on one tour and could explore at my own speed with a very qualified guide to answer all my dumb questions. The town also has some pretty corners and narrow streets climbing up to the castle. Old church with gothic and baroque stonework. Come in the winter and if you're lucky you see snow.

- Xativa to Alcoy rail line for the scenery (be careful to check times as it doesn't run very frequently). This is one of those lines in Spain whose purpose is somewhat unclear as the bus takes about half the time to get there, but it's a good thing it survives.

- Callosa de Segura, pretty town set in a narrow valley between mountains. Amazing old church.

- Orihuela, slightly bigger town, lively and pretty

- La Union, ancient mining town (as I mentioned previously), also played an important role in history of Flamenco music

- Puerto Lumbreras, just a random town that has some pretty bits.

- Teulada, station on the Alicante narrow gauge system. Little town with lots of narrow streets and quaint old houses. Come at lunchtime and eat paella on the square. Great alternative to the more touristy places nearby such as Altea and Calpe


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## Lonnie (Feb 12, 2022)

cirdan said:


> The area I am most familiar with really is the east side, especially Valencia and Murcia. Some places that stick in my memory include:
> 
> - Villena, old castle dating to mooric times set between high craggy mountaintops. I think you can't go into the castle by yourself but they do guided tours and when I was there I was the only visitor so got a one on one tour and could explore at my own speed with a very qualified guide to answer all my dumb questions. The town also has some pretty corners and narrow streets climbing up to the castle. Old church with gothic and baroque stonework. Come in the winter and if you're lucky you see snow.
> 
> ...


This is all going into my travel folder. My husband and I are flamenco musicians, toque and cante respectively, familiar with the basic history but not the actual locations of flamenco. Seems to me travel all throughout Spain by rail is going to have to be the organizing principle.


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## mc0621 (Feb 12, 2022)

I do hope the us routes could provide some possibilities of overnight trains.


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## Willbridge (Feb 13, 2022)

mc0621 said:


> I do hope the us routes could provide some possibilities of overnight trains.


Amtrak tried a few of them, but with the exception of the _Night Owl _between Boston and Washington, DC they weren't given much of a chance.


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## jis (Feb 13, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Amtrak tried a few of them, but with the exception of the _Night Owl _between Boston and Washington, DC they weren't given much of a chance.


Well considering how the Pioneer was started, it was quite a successful transition from an overnight Coach train to a full fledged train, until of course it just went away. I wonder if it would have been easier to retain it if it were just a Coach train with its low cost of operation.


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## Willbridge (Feb 14, 2022)

jis said:


> Well considering how the Pioneer was started, it was quite a successful transition from an overnight Coach train to a full fledged train, until of course it just went away. I wonder if it would have been easier to retain it if it were just a Coach train with its low cost of operation.


Possibly, but the problem with that was the period when the three trains _Pioneer, California Zephyr, _and _Desert Wind _were combined at SLC. The train had to be Superliners to avoid a really awful time of morning to change trains. Once it had to be Superliners, then it made sense running it like the rest of the long-distance trains.

It is likely that the economical operation of the original train helped save it in the first attempt to kill it, which occurred before the mandated two-year experimental period was concluded. [For those who weren't around then, the original consist of the Pioneer was typically a high-capacity Amfleet coach, two leg-rest Amfleet coaches, and an Amdinette. An additional high-capacity Amfleet coach was added between Portland and Seattle during peaks. I rode as a standee when they were short on equipment.]

The original Pioneer covered the slots of the morning southbound and evening northbound Pool Line trains, which were the weaker of the twice daily corridor trains. Here Train 25 is departing Portland. In the winter that part of the trip was usually dark and/or rainy, but most of the great scenery was covered in daylight, seen through Amfleet slits.




The Pioneer was never a high-fashion train. People rode it in the winter to get places where driving could be deadly.


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## Willbridge (Feb 14, 2022)

Getting back to the thread, it would be interesting to see statistics on the 2nd Class cars that some of the European night trains carry. When I rode City NightLine towards the end it looked as though the 2nd Class was holding up pretty well on the Berlin<>Amsterdam round-trip that I made. That was with Southern Pacific levels of customer service (contradictory information, an engine breakdown that could have been ameliorated, etc.)

After shutting down City NightLine and the reservation system then coming up with overnight connections between commuter trains, DB put on some red-eye ICE runs. How did they do?

The interest in night trains continues:








Snälltaget launches overnight train from Malmö to the Alps


Snälltåget introduced a new overnight service from Malmö to Zell am See in the Austrian Alps on January 28.




www.railjournal.com





Tips and tricks for on the go: How to make your night train journey a dream (berliner-zeitung.de)


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## cirdan (Feb 14, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Getting back to the thread, it would be interesting to see statistics on the 2nd Class cars that some of the European night trains carry. When I rode City NightLine towards the end it looked as though the 2nd Class was holding up pretty well on the Berlin<>Amsterdam round-trip that I made. That was with Southern Pacific levels of customer service (contradictory information, an engine breakdown that could have been ameliorated, etc.)
> 
> After shutting down City NightLine and the reservation system then coming up with overnight connections between commuter trains, DB put on some red-eye ICE runs. How did they do?
> 
> ...



I think many European night trains these days are second class only. Many of the French ones but also the new Swedish one and others offer only coach seats and couchette cars, with no proper sleeping cars, no bar or restaurant (at best a restricted range of snacks and drinks sold by attendants).

In my opinion especially in the age of COVID there is a clear market for more up market single person bedrooms.

The Austria-based Nightjets mostly offer a range of different categories ranging from their high end private bedrooms with en-suite bathroom all the way down to seated coach cars and several categories between. Sadly the booking website is not very good at explaining the differences to people not familiar with them already (Amtrak does this better in my opinion). I understand Nightjet bought up quite a few cars that were previously CityNightLine / DB which only adds to the jumble of different categories but are working on replacing them by more modern cars with clearer classification.

The red-eye night-time ICE trains are I guess DB's answer to NightJet but also to bus services such as FlixBus who have been eroding the low cost end of train travel and siphoned off much of the more cost-sensitive sector of the market.


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## slasher-fun (Feb 14, 2022)

cirdan said:


> I think many European night trains these days are second class only. Many of the French ones but also the new Swedish one and others offer only coach seats and couchette cars, with no proper sleeping cars, no bar or restaurant (at best a restricted range of snacks and drinks sold by attendants).


Snälltåget's "Krogen" looks pretty decent to me 








The Pub | Snälltåget


Enjoy a nice meal on board Snälltåget restaurant. Our meals are made from quality ingredients, served on porcelain plates in The Pub.




www.snalltaget.se





In my opinion especially in the age of COVID there is a clear market for more up market single person bedrooms.



cirdan said:


> The Austria-based Nightjets mostly offer a range of different categories ranging from their high end private bedrooms with en-suite bathroom all the way down to seated coach cars and several categories between. Sadly the booking website is not very good at explaining the differences to people not familiar with them already (Amtrak does this better in my opinion).


The (i) link on the booking options page seems to explain it in detail: Travel categories



cirdan said:


> I understand Nightjet bought up quite a few cars that were previously CityNightLine / DB which only adds to the jumble of different categories but are working on replacing them by more modern cars with clearer classification.


Nightjet rolling stock is actually pretty standard, the few exceptions being the double-decker sleepers on Zürich-Wien and Zürich-Hamburg (which will unfortunately be retired at the end of the year) and the "comfort couchette" cars made of refurbished seating cars (NightJet-Couchette)
The new rolling stock (Nightjet of the future) currently being tested (the first units should be in service at the end of the year) is actually going to add much less consistency among a single appellation


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## Arctifox (Feb 14, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Getting back to the thread, it would be interesting to see statistics on the 2nd Class cars that some of the European night trains carry. When I rode City NightLine towards the end it looked as though the 2nd Class was holding up pretty well on the Berlin<>Amsterdam round-trip that I made.



The 2nd class seats used on the Nightjet services are compartments with six seats (they can actually even be reclined to create a (relatively) flat surface to lie on, but if one wants to do that with 5 other passengers who might even be strangers ...). Other operators (such as Northern European ones like Snälltåget/Vy/SJ use open cars). Here are some pictures of the ÖBB 2nd class compartments: Pictures on VagonWeb



cirdan said:


> In my opinion especially in the age of COVID there is a clear market for more up market single person bedrooms.



ÖBB is expecting new night train rolling stock in the next few years, and one new product that will be introduced are 1-person compartments similar to capsule hotels. I'm really looking forward to those, hoping that they will offer something more affordable for solo-travellers who want to have their own compartment compared to private couchette/sleeper cars: Picture of new Nightjet mini compartments


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## Willbridge (Feb 15, 2022)

Arctifox said:


> The 2nd class seats used on the Nightjet services are compartments with six seats (they can actually even be reclined to create a (relatively) flat surface to lie on, but if one wants to do that with 5 other passengers who might even be strangers ...). Other operators (such as Northern European ones like Snälltåget/Vy/SJ use open cars). Here are some pictures of the ÖBB 2nd class compartments: Pictures on VagonWeb
> 
> 
> 
> ÖBB is expecting new night train rolling stock in the next few years, and one new product that will be introduced are 1-person compartments similar to capsule hotels. I'm really looking forward to those, hoping that they will offer something more affordable for solo-travellers who want to have their own compartment compared to private couchette/sleeper cars: Picture of new Nightjet mini compartments


I agree that it'll be interesting to see how the mini compartments do. The older people here who remember single Slumbercoach rooms are pretty sold on the idea.


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## jis (Feb 15, 2022)

Here is an article from CNN about new trains in Europe in 2022. Among them are several overnight trains...









Europe's new train routes for 2022


Rail travel in Europe is booming. Here are 19 of the best new train routes for 2022.




www.cnn.com


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## Mailliw (Feb 17, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> I agree that it'll be interesting to see how the mini compartments do. The older people here who remember single Slumbercoach rooms are pretty sold on the idea.


The only issue with the specific design of them is the lack of a daytime configuration. The only current Amtrak route they could be used on is the overnight NER.


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## Palmland (Apr 5, 2022)

Saw this NYT article on European Night Trains that continues to talk about the political and financial support for short haul (corridor) trains as well as night trains. A lot would have to change before a businessman would want to rely on an overnight Amtrak train. EU governments have some leverage on encouraging/requiring airlines to drop short haul flights with the strings attached to providing funding for Covid relief. That didn’t occur to our government.
**********
“Train travel in Europe is on the upswing, thanks to growing interest from travelers, a renaissance in sleeper trains, and new investments in high-speed rail lines across the continent. But to see major growth in passenger traffic — which is one of the goals of the European Green Deal — the continent’s railways will have to overcome a number of challenges, including booking difficulties and competition with short-haul flights, which remain the cheaper option on many multicountry routes.”


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## Northwestern (Jun 7, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> As a matter of fact, the former _Shasta Daylight _ran between Portland and Oakland as a coach and parlor car train. It was popular during the longer summer days, but the overnight _Cascade _did better on a year-round basis. The overnight train had better connections at both terminals. For Shasta Daylight Los Angeles connections there was a transfer at Martinez with the _Owl_, overnight through the San Joaquin Valley.
> 
> As in Europe, there are some places where an overnight train makes sense. I used them in Europe on trips where the fast daytime trains created the same miserable early morning departures as air schedules. As in the WAS<>NYP<>BOS case they add to the convenience of the fast daytime corridor service.


The Shasta Daylight had an interesting schedule:





__





The Shasta Daylight - August, 1950 - Streamliner Schedules


August 1950 timetable for the Shasta Daylight passenger train at Streamliner Schedules.



is.gd





I like the Portland boarding at 7:45 AM and a Martinez arrival at 9:49 PM. The northbound train, however, got into Portland pretty late (11:15 PM). I also like the reasonable hours into Dunsmuir for both trains #9 and #10. The big problem, at least for me, is the long hours in coach. I prefer an overnight train in a sleeper.

As to the possibility of a European-like overnight in the US would love to see it. Especially if it had limited stops. However, I just can't see it happening with Amtrak. It would have to be a private affair, I think. Possibly run by large corporate interests like the big hotel chains, Microsoft, Comcast, etc.


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## Willbridge (Jun 8, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> The Shasta Daylight had an interesting schedule:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The late hours at major stations Portland and San Francisco were big problems.,

hotels had few or even no bellhops.
late trains missed the last buses on transit routes.
the late evening hours at 3rd & Townsend after the ferries were axed were unattractive (although Jack Kerouac wrote a poem about Third Street).
as the SP stretched out running times, the problems above were worsened. The last (1966) schedule had Train 9's bus connection arriving 3rd St. at 12:20 a.m. and Train 10 arriving Portland at 12:30 a.m.
Several of these problems apply to city pairs in Europe, making overnight travel a solution.


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## Northwestern (Jun 8, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> The late hours at major stations Portland and San Francisco were big problems.,
> 
> hotels had few or even no bellhops.
> late trains missed the last buses on transit routes.
> ...



It does sound like a big problem. Has anyone tried to either detrain or board the Empire Builder in Spokane? I wonder if there are taxi's available at those late hours? What about security around the station, is it a problem?

I wish there was some sort of daylight train from Sacramento up to Dunsmuir and Siskiyou county. A daylight view of Mt. Shasta and access to numerous recreational areas would be great!









Mt Shasta Railroads - A Living History of Railroading in Siskiyou County


A look at railroading and railroad attractions around Mt. Shasta, CA. Produced, Directed and Written by Ed Dudkowski in 2000. Created for The Siskiyou County...




is.gd


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## CCC1007 (Jun 8, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> It does sound like a big problem. Has anyone tried to either detrain or board the Empire Builder in Spokane? I wonder if there are taxi's available at those late hours? What about security around the station, is it a problem?
> 
> I wish there was some sort of daylight train from Sacramento up to Dunsmuir and Siskiyou county. A daylight view of Mt. Shasta and access to numerous recreational areas would be great!
> 
> ...


I’ve both detrained and entrained at Spokane, and there have been taxis each time.

There is an on site security guard, and I felt safe each time.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 8, 2022)

I used to use the Toldeo, Ohio station quite a bit. Sometimes I just connected to the Ambus to Ann Arbor, sometimes I took a cab to/from the airport to get a rental car. I never had a problem getting a taxi, but the fare was pretty stiff, given that the Toledo Airport seems like it's halfway to Chicago.

I once came into New York at 3 AM because of downed catenary in New Jersey and had no trouble finding a cab to get to my hotel, but that's New York, the "city that never sleeps."

I came into Baltimore once at midnight because of a Carolinian meltdown, and I had no problem finding a ride share to get me home. Baltimore to Charlotte would actually be a nice overnight ride, come to think of it.

I've never taken the Palmetto southbound, so I don't know whether there's a problem with taxicabs in Savannah (the station is out in the middle of nowhere) when the train arrives at 9 something PM. The Silver Meteor is a great overnight ride to Savannah from the NEC, and there are always taxicabs.


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## Willbridge (Jun 8, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> It does sound like a big problem. Has anyone tried to either detrain or board the Empire Builder in Spokane? I wonder if there are taxi's available at those late hours? What about security around the station, is it a problem?
> 
> I wish there was some sort of daylight train from Sacramento up to Dunsmuir and Siskiyou county. A daylight view of Mt. Shasta and access to numerous recreational areas would be great!
> 
> ...


I did that once, in 1966, and walked to the Hotel Couer d'Alene, but there are some much more recent examples here. One factor is that although intercity buses share the station, their activity is mostly at other times.


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