# AGR layover amount



## Martha31 (Aug 24, 2012)

Planning a 3-zone trip on AGR points and need to know how long I can have between trains and still keep it one trip. If train comes in 7 p.m. and next train out is 10 a;.m the next day is that still same trip?


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## Anthony (Aug 24, 2012)

It depends. Is the 10am connecting train the next day the only possible option in the schedule, or is there an earlier train (the same day) that Amtrak could put you on?


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## the_traveler (Aug 24, 2012)

As I understand the rules (if there are indeed rules), an AGR award is only good for the next train out!




if it was a paid trip, a non-stopover is a train departing less than 23 hours and 59 minutes from the scheduled arrival time!


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## amamba (Aug 24, 2012)

It seems that some AU members have been successful in booking over night layovers on their own dime. IIRC, I seem to recall posts about someone doing that in New Orleans, but also an overnight in LAX, too.

Where is the connection and between what two trains? It probably is not allowed.


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## Linda T (Aug 24, 2012)

amamba said:


> It seems that some AU members have been successful in booking over night layovers on their own dime. IIRC, I seem to recall posts about someone doing that in New Orleans, but also an overnight in LAX, too.
> 
> Where is the connection and between what two trains? It probably is not allowed.



I just found this on Amtrak.com under refunds, don't know if it applies, but... "A trip is defined as a grouping of continuous travel. Example: A booking Wilmington - Washington - Chicago - Seattle with same-day connections is one trip." So is it that the connections need to be same day?

From my understanding they're trying to cut back on non-scheduled routes. I wanted to do TOL to SEA via LAX on the TE. They have a scheduled route for the SWC doing the exact same route, but they said they would deny me the TE because it's not a published route. Stupid in my opinion since the TE gets into LA at 5:35 now (new schedule) and the SWC gets in at 8:15. I did the SWC to CS last year and that's where we had to make such a mad dash to the held CS, the extra 3 hour cushion would be welcomed. And yeah, I checked all days and the TE is not part of the scheduled route. Oddly enough it is from CHI to SEA, but adding TOL they won't let me do it (course I'm still in the planning stages). I really need to buckle down and argue with them on that point. The problem is, I'm not really interested in going to CHI any other way but sleeper.

BTW, the AGR agent told me that TOL to SEA would be a 3 zone redemption. TOL to LA would be two zones, and LA to SEA would be another. Then the EB would be a normal 2 zone redemption. Go figure. I'm wondering if he's thinking TOL is in the east zone? It's on the cusp.


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## Martha31 (Aug 24, 2012)

Anthony said:


> It depends. Is the 10am connecting train the next day the only possible option in the schedule, or is there an earlier train (the same day) that Amtrak could put you on?


Get into Seattle 8:45 p.m. EB leaves 4:40 the next day. Would the roughly 19 hour layover be a problem in calling it one trip?


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## PRR 60 (Aug 24, 2012)

Martha31 said:


> Anthony said:
> 
> 
> > It depends. Is the 10am connecting train the next day the only possible option in the schedule, or is there an earlier train (the same day) that Amtrak could put you on?
> ...


In this case, it would be a problem. The train arriving Seattle at 8:45pm is the northbound Coast Starlight. The official connection between the northbound Coast Starlight and the eastbound Empire Builder is in Portland, with the Starlight arriving at 3:40pm and the Portland section of the Empire Builder leaving at 4:45pm. You can book through Seattle with an overnight if you wish, but AGR will count that as two trips and require separate redemptions for each.


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## the_traveler (Aug 24, 2012)

Linda T - There is a way to make it (with the TE/SL) work, but I ain't telling!



And that agent was wrong, wrong, wrong!



TOL-CHI--LAX-SEA is indeed a 2 zone award! I've done it many times myself - although only to PDX.


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## yarrow (Aug 25, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> Martha31 said:
> 
> 
> > Anthony said:
> ...


agr did allow us to do this 3 or 4 years ago as a single redemption for the same amount of points as if we had connected with the eb in portland. all you can do is ask and explain you will provide your own overnight lodging. also, if the first agent you call says "no" then call back and ask again. the answer could be different


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## Linda T (Aug 26, 2012)

yarrow said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Martha31 said:
> ...


Martha, how are you doing on your end? I just tried talking to AGR yesterday and they're not letting me do TOL to SEA via the TE. They'll let me take the CL to CHI in coach (my suggestion, not wasting 15,000 points for 3.5 hours). Then I can take the Eagle to LAX and up to SEA (only overnight would be Seattle). I can then come home to CIN on the EB to Card. I just can't understand why they won't give me TOL to SEA since it does CHI to SEA. Go figure...


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## Ispolkom (Aug 26, 2012)

Linda T said:


> I just tried talking to AGR yesterday and they're not letting me do TOL to SEA via the TE. They'll let me take the CL to CHI in coach (my suggestion, not wasting 15,000 points for 3.5 hours). Then I can take the Eagle to LAX and up to SEA (only overnight would be Seattle). I can then come home to CIN on the EB to Card. I just can't understand why they won't give me TOL to SEA since it does CHI to SEA. Go figure...


You might try social engineering. If they will give you CHI-SAS-LAX-SEA as a two-zone award, take it. Wait a few days, then say that your plans have changed, and that you want to depart from TOL. If you're lucky, you'll get an agent who will add on the TOL-CHI leg, without changing the rest of the reservation. If not, you've lost nothing.

An agent can do just about anything, but often won't. It's just the way it is.


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## C&O RR (Aug 27, 2012)

Linda T said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > It seems that some AU members have been successful in booking over night layovers on their own dime. IIRC, I seem to recall posts about someone doing that in New Orleans, but also an overnight in LAX, too.
> ...


Linda,

I'll tell. Do you like El Paso Tx (ELP)????

TOL to ELP (1 zone) then ELP to SEA ((1 zone) for total of 2 zones.

Stay as long as you want in El Paso. Some agents might even let you not get off the train (stay in your room while you wave at the people in El Paso) in El Paso and only charge you for a total of 2 zones. The rules say you must get off the train, but you can take the next train out.


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## C&O RR (Aug 27, 2012)

Martha31 said:


> Planning a 3-zone trip on AGR points and need to know how long I can have between trains and still keep it one trip. If train comes in 7 p.m. and next train out is 10 a;.m the next day is that still same trip?


I your starting point is on the allows you to end up on Train 19 (Crescent) on the way to the West Coast then Amtrak allows for an overnight in New Orleans.

For example WAS to ELP (El Paso, TX)allows you to stay the night in New Orleans and take the Sunset the next day for a 2 zone trip.

Now do you want to maximize you train time?

Assuming you are starting in the East, take the Crescent to New Orleans (2 zones)

Now go from New Orleans to SEA (several interesting 2 zone routes appear - NOL to CHI on train 58, then CHI to SEA via Train 3 & train 14 gives you 4 nights)

Don't want to go to SEA? Go to LAX from New Orleans (pick a day of the week that 421 is running to LAX - you can go from NOL to LAX taking train 58 to CHI, the train 421 to LAX for a total of 4 nights.

You could of course just the Sunset straight from NOL to LAX, but what fun would that be?


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## Martha31 (Aug 27, 2012)

C&O RR said:


> Martha31 said:
> 
> 
> > Planning a 3-zone trip on AGR points and need to know how long I can have between trains and still keep it one trip. If train comes in 7 p.m. and next train out is 10 a;.m the next day is that still same trip?
> ...


That is EXACTLY what I do, I use NOL to get the most points one way. The other way I have to go through MRC to catch friend who boards there and TE is the longest train anyway, right?


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## Linda T (Aug 27, 2012)

> Linda, I'll tell. Do you like El Paso Tx (ELP)????TOL to ELP (1 zone) then ELP to SEA ((1 zone) for total of 2 zones.
> 
> Stay as long as you want in El Paso. Some agents might even let you not get off the train (stay in your room while you wave at the people in El Paso) in El Paso and only charge you for a total of 2 zones. The rules say you must get off the train, but you can take the next train out.


True, but from what the AGR supervisor said today that would be two one zone redemptions. They're cracking down. What I was told is if you can't book it as one continuous trip, it will cost extra points. For example, I can go from CHI to SEA as a two zone redemption 20,000 points. But try to add TOL and it becomes a 2 zone + 1 zone redemption or 35,000 points because there are no schedules from TOL to SEA, they know it's in the central zone cause I told them!

To go from TOL to ELP would be a one zone redemption, but to add ELP to SEA would be another redemption of a one zone trip thus costing me 30,000 points.

I don't know. I'd love to know who to talk to up at AGR, cause I've talked to several different reps now and a couple of supers... so far they're adament, if it's not part of an online schedule or in the timetable book, it'll cost extra to do it. No more making our own trips without it requiring more money. Just cause a train technically can make a connection, doesn't mean it's bookable.. :angry2:

I've decided for the extra train time I'll take the Cardinal from HUN to CHI coach arriving in CHI on Monday. I'll overnight in CHI and be ready for the TE on Tuesday. I'll book CHI to SEA as one two zone redemption (20,000 points) CHI-LAX-SEA on the Eagle and Starlight and then SEA-CHI-CIN as another two zone redemption on the Builder and Cardinal (20,000 points). Then go from CIN to HUN by coach again. Oh well... it's one way to get some quick rail points. :wacko:


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## AlanB (Aug 27, 2012)

Linda T said:


> True, but from what the AGR supervisor said today that would be two one zone redemptions. They're cracking down. What I was told is if you can't book it as one continuous trip, it will cost extra points. For example, I can go from CHI to SEA as a two zone redemption 20,000 points. But try to add TOL and it becomes a 2 zone + 1 zone redemption or 35,000 points because there are no schedules from TOL to SEA, they know it's in the central zone cause I told them!


If you're trying for some odd routing via say the Eagle, this might be true. But one can most certainly find directly in arrow a schedule that allows one to go TOL-CHI-SEA and that would be a 2 zone award.


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## the_traveler (Aug 27, 2012)

During normal times in the past, I'd say there would be no problem to go from the EB to the Cardinal. (I have done it myself!) But this summer has been far from normal!



I'd be more inclined to take the CS->CZ (connecting in MTZ)->Cardinal. (But with the way the CZ has been going lately, this is chancy too!



)


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## Linda T (Aug 28, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Linda T said:
> 
> 
> > True, but from what the AGR supervisor said today that would be two one zone redemptions. They're cracking down. What I was told is if you can't book it as one continuous trip, it will cost extra points. For example, I can go from CHI to SEA as a two zone redemption 20,000 points. But try to add TOL and it becomes a 2 zone + 1 zone redemption or 35,000 points because there are no schedules from TOL to SEA, they know it's in the central zone cause I told them!
> ...


Agreed Alan, I can take the EB, the CZ/CS, the SWC/CS

I do indeed want the Eagle. This will more than likely be my final long distance trip since my husband can't go on these. I've taken the Chief, Zephyr and Starlight. I'd like now to do the outside loop. What's frustrating is one can take the Eagle and Startlight from CHI to SEA, but to try to add TOL or CIN onto that will cost me an extra 15,000 miles. Why? If there's a 23 hour rule, wouldn't that fall into that, but AGR considers it a seperate reservation. I guess I'm just lost. I'm watching people talking about taking LD trains and getting two or three zones out of them. Not sure why TOL was an extra zone, but after some thought I know why CIN is extra. It's longer than 24 hours. :huh:

Oh and to the Traveler, I don't mind the Empire Builder being terribly late. The CZ was 8 hours late into CHI I got two free nights there on Amtrak, and the next Cardinal out. Someone's got to get those extra nights, might as well be me. The joy of being retired, don't need to be anywhere at any particular time.


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## AlanB (Aug 28, 2012)

Linda T said:


> I do indeed want the Eagle. This will more than likely be my final long distance trip since my husband can't go on these. I've taken the Chief, Zephyr and Starlight. I'd like now to do the outside loop. What's frustrating is one can take the Eagle and Startlight from CHI to SEA, but to try to add TOL or CIN onto that will cost me an extra 15,000 miles. Why? If there's a 23 hour rule, wouldn't that fall into that, but AGR considers it a seperate reservation. I guess I'm just lost. I'm watching people talking about taking LD trains and getting two or three zones out of them. How is that done on either 20,000 or 35,000 points for a roomette? Or are people just not mentioning the extra points taken out? I'm over my head on this one. :help: Is it that the train I'm on is not the next train out?


Linda,

Actually, it's none of the above, and frankly it's not even really fair as to why you can't. But still, I'll try to explain it. ARROW, Amtrak's base computer system, is a rather old and almost dumb computer program by today's standards. It knows every station in the Amtrak system, but it on its own does not know how to get anyone from point A to point B.

So someone must sit down and tell/program ARROW with the information that says from Chicago, one can get to Seattle by riding the EB, the CZ and then connecting in Sacramento to the Starlight, the SWC, etc. If no one tells ARROW that it is possible to go to Seattle via the Empire Builder, then every time you go online to try to book a trip to Seattle from Chicago to Seattle, ARROW would try to route you through either SAC or LAX, since those are the only routes that it knows because someone never told it "hey, the Empire Builder goes there."

Now, in your case, someone did tell ARROW that it is possible to go to Seattle via the Texas Eagle/Sunset connection to the Coast Starlight from Chicago. Unfortunately for you, no one ever bothered to tell ARROW that you can do that from Toledo too. They only told ARROW that from Toledo you can only get to Seattle via the EB, CZ, and SWC.

The AGR internal rules basically say, if ARROW doesn't show that combination, then you cannot book that trip.

Now, how can you tell what ARROW knows? Simply go to the website and enter your start city and destination city pair; what ever shows up is what ARROW knows. If it doesn't show, then no one ever told ARROW that the route in question is still possible, and AGR will not book it.

If you have to use the Multi-city option to book your trip, which means that you're not asking ARROW how to get from A to B, but you are instead telling it this is how I'm going to go from A to B, then again AGR cannot book that as one trip.

Again, in your case this really isn't fair. But it is what it is. AGR did this to stop people from booking ridiculous routings that nearly went in circles and covered the entire country, yet ended up as a 1 zone award. They unfortunately really have no other way to stop that type of abuse, but to use this rule. And you are sadly getting caught by it, even though what you want really should be a valid trip.

I'm afraid that your only choice at this point is to 1) pay the extra points; 2) use points for a coach seat; 3) pay for either a coach seat or room.


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## the_traveler (Aug 28, 2012)

I think the problem between CIN and ELP may be that they do not arrive and depart on the same day in CHI. While its true that the TE departs CHI daily, it only runs to SAS. 3 days a week, it combines in SAS to continue west to ELP and LAX! And as you know, the Cardinal only operates 3 days a week also


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## Ispolkom (Aug 28, 2012)

AlanB said:


> The AGR internal rules basically say, if ARROW doesn't show that combination, then you cannot book that trip.


Wouldn't it be more accurate to write, "*Most AGR agents* say, "If ARROW doesn't show that combination, then you cannot book that trip." After all, I've never seen proof any rule book exists, and some agents *will* book routings not available at amtrak.com.



> AGR did this to stop people from booking ridiculous routings that nearly went in circles and covered the entire country, yet ended up as a 1 zone award. They unfortunately really have no other way to stop that type of abuse, but to use this rule.


I don't think that this is a true statement. ARROW (or at least amtrak.com) still shows circuitous routings. Try Kansas City-Columbus. You get trains 3-14-28. Try Lake Charles-Columbus. You get trains 1-14-28. Try Atlanta-Seattle. You're offered trains 20-29-5-14. There are any number of circuitous routings still available in amtrak.com, so the rule requiring routings that are shown there (if it exists) doesn't address any abuses of so-called loophole trips.

I'm afraid that you've fallen into the trap of ascribing rationality to the seemingly arbitrary behavior of AGR agents. It's an alluring concept, to be sure, but in my experience it really doesn't stand up to close examination.



> I'm afraid that your only choice at this point is to 1) pay the extra points; 2) use points for a coach seat; 3) pay for either a coach seat or room.


This, though, is probably true.


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## Martha31 (Aug 28, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Linda T said:
> 
> 
> > I do indeed want the Eagle. This will more than likely be my final long distance trip since my husband can't go on these. I've taken the Chief, Zephyr and Starlight. I'd like now to do the outside loop. What's frustrating is one can take the Eagle and Startlight from CHI to SEA, but to try to add TOL or CIN onto that will cost me an extra 15,000 miles. Why? If there's a 23 hour rule, wouldn't that fall into that, but AGR considers it a seperate reservation. I guess I'm just lost. I'm watching people talking about taking LD trains and getting two or three zones out of them. How is that done on either 20,000 or 35,000 points for a roomette? Or are people just not mentioning the extra points taken out? I'm over my head on this one. :help: Is it that the train I'm on is not the next train out?
> ...


can we get Arrow smarter? can we allow human brain to override Arrow.


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## AlanB (Aug 28, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The AGR internal rules basically say, if ARROW doesn't show that combination, then you cannot book that trip.
> ...


No, that would not be more accurate. The fact that some agents don't pay attention to the rules does not indicate that the rules don't exist.



Ispolkom said:


> > AGR did this to stop people from booking ridiculous routings that nearly went in circles and covered the entire country, yet ended up as a 1 zone award. They unfortunately really have no other way to stop that type of abuse, but to use this rule.
> 
> 
> I don't think that this is a true statement. ARROW (or at least amtrak.com) still shows circuitous routings. Try Kansas City-Columbus. You get trains 3-14-28. Try Lake Charles-Columbus. You get trains 1-14-28. Try Atlanta-Seattle. You're offered trains 20-29-5-14. There are any number of circuitous routings still available in amtrak.com, so the rule requiring routings that are shown there (if it exists) doesn't address any abuses of so-called loophole trips.


I didn't say it was a perfect solution, but by and large it cut out much of the abuse that was originally happening. Additionally, they've since applied the rule that if you cross into a zone, you pay for that zone. So in your first two examples, if they even allow the trip, you will still pay for a two zone award, even though you started and ended in the Central zone.



Ispolkom said:


> I'm afraid that you've fallen into the trap of ascribing rationality to the seemingly arbitrary behavior of AGR agents. It's an alluring concept, to be sure, but in my experience it really doesn't stand up to close examination.


Nope!


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## AlanB (Aug 28, 2012)

Martha31 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Linda T said:
> ...


Arrow itself, no. It's a 32 year old program that simply cannot do many of the wonderful things that more modern programs can do. And replacing it will cost big bucks, bucks that Amtrak doesn't have and right now Congress doesn't seem inclined to grant.

So unless those in charge of routings decide that people might one day wish to connect from TOL to the Eagle for points on the West Coast, you're probably out of luck.  Sorry!


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## Ispolkom (Aug 29, 2012)

AlanB said:


> No, that would not be more accurate. The fact that some agents don't pay attention to the rules does not indicate that the rules don't exist.


If there are rules they are not published and which change without warning or even an acknowledgement that they've changed, and they aren't always enforced. Outside of the actions of Soviet bureaucracies, that doesn't fit any definition of rules I'm familiar with, and its effects are similar enough to random arbitrariness to me.

And to be honest, Soviet railroads had straight-forward, published ticketing rules. If you wanted to get around them, you didn't try another agent and hope for a different answer, like with AGR, Instead, you bribed a conductor. But I digress.



> I didn't say it was a perfect solution, but by and large it cut out much of the abuse that was originally happening. Additionally, they've since applied the rule that if you cross into a zone, you pay for that zone. So in your first two examples, if they even allow the trip, you will still pay for a two zone award, even though you started and ended in the Central zone.


Did it? Was the principal "abuse" people traveling routes that weren't available from amtrak.com? I don't think so, and I'd love to see evidence that supports your claim. Here's evidence that it was the routes that were programmed into amtrak.com that Amtrak disliked the most:

1) The Slidell-West Coast two-zone routing disappeared before 4/1/10, an event that at the time was ascribed to "cracking down on loophole abuse."

2) The trip that in some versions of the story (isn't it great that there are legends about AGR?) supposedly was the catalysis for the banning of loophole trips was, if I recall, a Kansas City-Columbus route.

3) Even when loophole trips were allowed, I encountered agents who would only book trips that were on amtrak.com.

I think that it was the change in how many routes were charged for trips that crossed zones that was the key feature in the post 4/1/10 crackdown, not the nonlisted itineraries.

Here's an explanation that covers the known experience with no reference to loophole trips.

1) Agents are rated with how fast they deal with calls. This is very common in call centers.

2) It's quicker and easier to book trips if you stick to itineraries that are in amtrak.com already.

3) Therefore, an agent who wants good statistics will simply claim that the only legal itineraries are those available in amtrak.com. Most people won't argue.

That's an explanation that seems logical to me, and needs no reference to any supposed unpublished, secret AGR rule. It also explains why some agents (who aren't concerned about that metric, for whatever reason), are willing to handle other routings.


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > No, that would not be more accurate. The fact that some agents don't pay attention to the rules does not indicate that the rules don't exist.
> ...


The rules aren't published any place that you or I can see them, but they do exist. And yes, the do sometimes change without warning. But again, the fact that some agents don't follow them doesn't mean that they don't exist. And sometimes the agents "changes" get noticed and they get retrained and sometimes they don't.

We've never discussed this publicly before, but since it has now been over 2 years since AGR went in house and I can see that you need more, back when Carlson was the AGR provider we had a secret AGR Insider here on our forum. One supervisor from Carlson joined up here and he affected help for people with problems. At least two recipients of his efforts were Greg (GSwager) and Al (RailFanLNK). In the latter case, this agent saved Al's trip that was literally going underwater due to flooding on the CZ route at that time. He also helped several people in getting their partner points from various stores to post.

In any event, this supervisor and I chatted many times about all things AGR. And I can assure you that there are rules; rules that sometimes don't get followed by an agent, which is where your confusion comes into play when you try to analyze things.



Ispolkom said:


> > I didn't say it was a perfect solution, but by and large it cut out much of the abuse that was originally happening. Additionally, they've since applied the rule that if you cross into a zone, you pay for that zone. So in your first two examples, if they even allow the trip, you will still pay for a two zone award, even though you started and ended in the Central zone.
> 
> 
> Did it? Was the principal "abuse" people traveling routes that weren't available from amtrak.com? I don't think so, and I'd love to see evidence that supports your claim. Here's evidence that it was the routes that were programmed into amtrak.com that Amtrak disliked the most:
> ...


Nope! You're confusing two separate things. There were the changes that happened a couple of years back due to one person's pushing so hard that an already questionable loophole trip also be allowed on a blackout date because an AGR agent had made a mistake in booking things. That led to the crack down on loophole trips, trips that were always valid before and at least as far as ARROW is concerned are still valid trips even today. It's just that AGR won't book it, at least not without charging you extra points.

And then there is the rule that any AGR trip must conform to a pre-programmed ARROW routing; that one cannot use a Multi-City type function to piece together one's dream trip. I'm not sure if that rule was always in place from day 1 of AGR, but I suspect not as I recall people managing to book some very interesting routings early on. And I've both been here and in AGR since day 1. I have no factual data to bring to bear on this, but my guess is that the ARROW only routings rule came into being sometime within the second or third year of AGR's existence.


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## the_traveler (Aug 29, 2012)

Here's the semi secret way to get to the west coast via the TE!






Since a 3 zone Roomette is the same cost in points as a 2 zone award plus a 1 zone award, if starting in the eastern zone book a 2 zone award to ELP and then a 1 zone award to the west coast!


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## Ispolkom (Aug 29, 2012)

AlanB said:


> The rules aren't published any place that you or I can see them, but they do exist. And yes, the do sometimes change without warning. But again, the fact that some agents don't follow them doesn't mean that they don't exist. And sometimes the agents "changes" get noticed and they get retrained and sometimes they don't.
> ...
> 
> In any event, this supervisor and I chatted many times about all things AGR. And I can assure you that there are rules; rules that sometimes don't get followed by an agent, which is where your confusion comes into play when you try to analyze things.


I guess that this is something that we'll just have to agree to disagree about. I deal with regulations for a living, and for me, it's simple: if rules are secret they aren't rules. The agent can claim almost anything and there is no recourse, because the present agent can either claim that my experience in the past was with an agent who misapplied the rules, or the rules have secretly changed. How can I argue? After all, I don't have access to the rules.

Given that, I see no advantage to me as an AGR customer to believe any such rules exist. Sure, you say that you know someone who has seen them. Great! I've met people who've claimed to have seen Elvis. Both Elvis and AGR's rules existed, no doubt. It's just unclear what their present state is.

Faced with such an indeterminate situation, it's just as useful for me to believe that AGR agents roll dice against my Charisma score as it is to imagine that the agent imperfectly applies a list of poorly enforced (and probably inexactly written) rules. Either scenario equally accurately reflects the results I see, and I find my D&D theory more amusing. YMMV.


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## amamba (Aug 29, 2012)

Now I'll be humming "in the garage" to myself everytime I call AGR.

"I've got a 12 sided died.....I've got a dungeon-master's guide...."


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> Sure, you say that you know someone who has seen them. Great! I've met people who've claimed to have seen Elvis. Both Elvis and AGR's rules existed, no doubt. It's just unclear what their present state is.


Again, you don't have to take my word for it. As I noted, there are members here who spoke with this former supervisor and are fully aware that he existed. Heck a search should even turn up Al's report about the help he got, as well as the fact that there is a post on here from Greg who got called by this Supervisor after he saw a post made by Greg regarding a problem he'd had in booking a trip.

So there will be no more talk of Elvis, as his existence (the Supervisor, not Elvis) is documented on this forum, and there are others who have spoken with him on the phone. And quite frankly I find your entire statement insulting.

And you can go right on believing what you want, I can't stop that, nor would I want to. But you do have a recourse, you can appeal to AGR Insider over at Flyertalk. Becky does respond to people who PM her.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 30, 2012)

Even though frequent rider/flyer programs are always in a state of flux I find that I get more of what I want from United's Mileage Plus (*A) and American's Aadvantage (OW) than I do from AGR. They're just easier to figure out, everything can be done online, and even though the options are fewer the required points are less, the rules are easier to decipher, and I can "buy" a flight at the last minute. Hopefully AGR will get better about this over time, but in recent years it's been getting worse and worse with higher minimums, more rules, and fewer options. New technologies have the potential to make things better in some ways, but with the growing pressure from politicians to sever Amtrak from the federal budget it's hard to see much incentive for making things better for average customers at this time. Hopefully this won't be the case forever.


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## amamba (Aug 30, 2012)

I had great success sending a PM to the AGR Insider at Flyer Talk. She helped me out with an issue once. I can't even remember what it was, but she was super nice about it and the issue got resolved.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 30, 2012)

AlanB said:


> So there will be no more talk of Elvis, as his existence (the Supervisor, not Elvis) is documented on this forum, and there are others who have spoken with him on the phone. And quite frankly I find your entire statement insulting.


I apologize for the insult, as I did not intend one, but will point out that I was not comparing the supervisor to Elvis. I was comparing the rules to Elvis.


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