# Another deadly Indian train fire (Mumbai)



## caravanman (Jan 9, 2014)

Maybe they might consider NOT locking the doors at night !!!

http://www.dawn.com/news/1079136/nine-dead-in-indian-train-fire-near-mumbai-official

Ed.


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## greatcats (Jan 9, 2014)

Those locked doors scare me. It makes me want to not ride the system in India, should I ever travel there. At least on Amtrak it is a simple matter to open the doors in an emergency.


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## Someone (Jan 10, 2014)

greatcats said:


> Those locked doors scare me. It makes me want to not ride the system in India, should I ever travel there. At least on Amtrak it is a simple matter to open the doors in an emergency.


Opening a locked door from inside on an Indian train is no more difficult than doing it on an Amtrak train. When they say "locked", it only means latched, there are no locks with keys on Indian train doors. Any passenger can open them from inside.

Also, remember Indian Railways operates more than 3,500 passenger trains per day. Let not one (or two) incidents of fire and locked doors scare you against traveling on the entire vast network. The probability of getting stuck on an Indian train that has caught fire with locked doors is no worse than being in an accident while driving your car or walking. Does that want you to never drive or walk either?


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## greatcats (Jan 10, 2014)

Thank you, you make a good point. Yes, that is a huge system, but it appears it has more than its share of bad wrecks.


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## Someone (Jan 10, 2014)

greatcats said:


> Thank you, you make a good point. Yes, that is a huge system, but it appears it has more than its share of bad wrecks.


Agreed Indian Railways has less than stellar safety record, but it appears to be much more unsafe than it actually is because only the bad news trickle into news. You won't read news saying "3,500 trains completed their journeys without any incidents today"

About the comparison with cars- in the US, in 2012, 34,080 people died in car accidents, thats 10.83 deaths per 100,000 population. Compared to this, on Indian Railways, there were three incidents of fire in 2012, claiming a total of 60 lives, that's 0.005 deaths per 100,000 population. So, there is a *2000 times* more chance of you getting killed while driving in the US than dying in a train fire in India. Does that make you feel safer about traveling there?


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## greatcats (Jan 10, 2014)

I'll make reservations today to go to India. Oh, sorry, going to Europe first. Will be on trains there!


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## caravanman (Jan 10, 2014)

Although I have ridden many Indian trains, including overnight sleepers similar to the two involved in the fires, I am unclear about the locked doors issue. It may be that pasengers got confused in the dark and smoke, but several reports did mention locked doors, maybe locked with a carriage key if not a full lock. Whatever the latch, it seems that the bars on windows and the latched doors added to the death toll.

I love India, and Indian train travel, and know that it is a vast and cool rail system... Having folk unable to save themselves through being unable to get doors open is a bit chilling, even for me!

Ed


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## fairviewroad (Jan 10, 2014)

caravanman said:


> Although I have ridden many Indian trains, including overnight sleepers similar to the two involved in the fires, I am unclear about the locked doors issue.


I would appreciate some clarity on this as well. No offense to our guest, but I'm not quite buying that "locked" = "latched" in this case. The original

article stated _"The exit doors of Indian trains are customarily locked at night, while the carriage windows are covered with bars, making escape difficult."_

That doesn't sound like something that makes escaping "no more difficult than on Amtrak" as our guest put forward.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 10, 2014)

Paging jis! Paging jis! He just Returned from India IINM ,and as a Native of that Country and a Many Times Rider, I'm Sure He Can Explain this Comparison between Amtrak Cars and Indian Rail Cars as Pertains to the Locking of Doors! Ive seen Pictures and Videos of the Bared Windows which Frankly don't seem like they would be Too Safe, but i Realize that Without Air Conditioning These Cars Would Become Intolerable in the High Heat and Humidity of SE Asia if the Windows Weren't Open!! :help:


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## jis (Jan 10, 2014)

No I am still in India, returning on Wednesday this coming week.

To tell you the truth I have not traveled by IR LD trains in so long that I have very little clue what happens these days. I simply do not have that kind of time available to indulge in such since I have so many things to do and places to visit during my brief visit to India each year. Visiting a country as a tourist is very different from an annual visit to catch up with friends and relatives spread out all over the country. And even when I have taken LD trains several years back they were only on Rajdhanis, which are a class unto themselves and what happens there has little to do with what happens in more standard normal trains. So I am afraid I am unable to contribute anything based on any recent first hand knowledge.


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## Texan Eagle (Jan 10, 2014)

I am not jis but I just returned from a trip to India last week and did ride a few "standard" trains (as opposed to the superior Rajdhani trains that jis rides) and I can provide some insight into this- as the Guest mentioned, normal non-AC or even AC coaches *do not* get locked when the train is in operation. However it is customary during night time for passengers, or coach attendant (present only in air-conditioned coaches) to close the door and put a heavy latch that comes standard at every door. Now, to clarify the confusion between "locked" and "latched", the latch mechanism is such that from *inside* the coach, anyone can go and open the latch, and the door, so nobody can theoretically get "locked" inside. However, if the door has been closed with the latch from inside there is absolutely no way for anyone to open the door from *outside *even in case of emergency. So, the coach is *"latched" from inside, "locked" from outside*.

So, in case of fire, if passengers *inside* the coach have spatial awareness, they can open the heavy latch and throw the door open, but if an outsider wants to help them escape, he/she is out of luck since the door cannot be opened from outside when it is latched from inside.

Here is a photo of the arrangement I found via Google search, this is one of the newer LHB design coaches, but the usual standard design coaches have a similar arrangement. You can see three latches here- one at the top right, red one at the door knob level, and one at the very bottom right. The bottom one is rarely used, the other two can be opened and closed from inside by anyone.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 10, 2014)

:hi: Much Thanks! I guess I'll Go with the Deluxe Trains if I ever get to India and want to Ride around the Country on the Trains!

(I'm Leery of Bars on Windows ! Amtrak Superliner Doors Can be Opened from the Outside (Crew Members Only!  )and Of Course the Windows are Emergency Exits Also!


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## caravanman (Jan 11, 2014)

That is good to know about the latching/locking issue... I count myself as a reasonably aware person, but just would not have known how to unlatch a door to exit a train in dark or smoke. Maybe more signage in the trains about the doors being latched could save lives in future.

Me? I will be investing in a travel smoke alarm for all my travel, USA or India !

Ed


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## Texan Eagle (Jan 12, 2014)

Texan Eagle said:


> I am not jis but I just returned from a trip to India last week and did ride a few "standard" trains


For those who do not frequent the Travelogues section and might have missed this, I am writing a travelogue about my recent train travels in India, Part 1 is up and can be read here.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 13, 2014)

Texan Eagle said:


> Now, to clarify the confusion between "locked" and "latched", the latch mechanism is such that from *inside* the coach, anyone can go and open the latch, and the door, so nobody can theoretically get "locked" inside. However, if the door has been closed with the latch from inside there is absolutely no way for anyone to open the door from *outside *even in case of emergency. So, the coach is *"latched" from inside, "locked" from outside*.
> 
> So, in case of fire, if passengers *inside* the coach have spatial awareness, they can open the heavy latch and throw the door open, but if an outsider wants to help them escape, he/she is out of luck since the door cannot be opened from outside when it is latched from inside.


Thank you for the clear explanation. It does not seem to be a very safe arrangement, but not nearly as bad as the image of passengers being "locked" inside (i.e. prevented from leaving) as though they were prisoners. But yeah, in a dark, smoke-filled rail car it does seem likely that passengers would find egress difficult to a much greater degree than on an Amtrak sleeping car.


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## RRUserious (Feb 11, 2014)

greatcats said:


> Those locked doors scare me. It makes me want to not ride the system in India, should I ever travel there. At least on Amtrak it is a simple matter to open the doors in an emergency.


That and the mob scene at rail stations that makes it so hard to prevent terrorist bombing attacks. Then, too, there are those rails that hug mountains with a sharp dropoff. Derailments in India can be catastrophic.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/10/7-dead-scores-injured-as-train-derails-in-india/


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## Texan Eagle (Feb 16, 2014)

RRUserious said:


> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> > Those locked doors scare me. It makes me want to not ride the system in India, should I ever travel there. At least on Amtrak it is a simple matter to open the doors in an emergency.
> ...


All you found to prove your point was a Fox News article from *2011? *Yes, India has had quite a few really bad train accidents, but, as I have pointed out earlier too, I would like to point it out again that Indian Railways operates 7,000 trains *per day* and over 99.9% of them complete their journeys safely without incident, but that does not get reported in the news.

Also, I hope you realize India has a 65,000 km (~40,000 miles) of passenger rail network and only a very small % of that are "rails that hug mountains with sharp dropoff". And by the way, I cannot recollect a single accident on those hill railways where the train fell off the edge in the last several decades.

I am not saying Indian Railways has stellar safety or crowd control record, all I am saying is, don't let these isolated news reports discourage you. As a railfan, if you ever get a chance, I would absolutely recommend visiting India for riding trains, it will be a great experience.. and I mean this in a positive sense.


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## caravanman (Feb 16, 2014)

I have just posted a copy of my last trip 2011, (part one) to India in the Rail Trip reports section if anyone is interested.

Ed


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