# Suicide by Train



## George Harris

Caltrain - the San Francisco to San Jose commuter service - has had two fatalities, one yesterday, one today both apparent suicides. Publicity has been fairly minimal, which I consider a very good idea so as not to encourage copycats. The two do not appear to be related, even though they occurred within a couple miles of each other. Yesterday's was about 4 miles south of Palo Alto station and today's about 2 miles south of PA. Today's occurred late in the morning rush hour period.

Last year I hear a couple conductors discussing the plan to put a suicide barrier on the Golden Gate bridge. The essence was, Oh no. Now they will come down here and jump in front of trains. It is their nightmare. It is the conductor, not the engineer, and not the EMS or law enforcement people that first go back and look and find the body or pieces thereof. Absolutely one of their worst nightmares.


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## GoldenSpike

George Harris said:


> Caltrain - the San Francisco to San Jose commuter service - has had two fatalities, one yesterday, one today both apparent suicides. Publicity has been fairly minimal, which I consider a very good idea so as not to encourage copycats. The two do not appear to be related, even though they occurred within a couple miles of each other. Yesterday's was about 4 miles south of Palo Alto station and today's about 2 miles south of PA. Today's occurred late in the morning rush hour period.
> Last year I hear a couple conductors discussing the plan to put a suicide barrier on the Golden Gate bridge. The essence was, Oh no. Now they will come down here and jump in front of trains. It is their nightmare. It is the conductor, not the engineer, and not the EMS or law enforcement people that first go back and look and find the body or pieces thereof. Absolutely one of their worst nightmares.


It is right up there with suicide by cop. Depends on what one's preference is: train or bullet.


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## Sam31452

You're lucky, if there are only 2 suicides "by train" a day in such a large country. In Europe we have at least a few dozen of these a day.

Here you wouldn't get any publicity, just because it's too normal.

But at least the european railways are prepared and offer usually psychological help to the enigneer.

Does Caltrain offer that too?


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## Long Train Runnin'

Sam31452 said:


> You're lucky, if there are only 2 suicides "by train" a day in such a large country. In Europe we have at least a few dozen of these a day.Here you wouldn't get any publicity, just because it's too normal.
> 
> But at least the european railways are prepared and offer usually psychological help to the enigneer.
> 
> Does Caltrain offer that too?


I know Amtrak crews get time off and yes some kind of aide is offered to engineers and the crew IIRC.


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## gswager

George Harris said:


> Last year I hear a couple conductors discussing the plan to put a suicide barrier on the Golden Gate bridge. The essence was, Oh no. Now they will come down here and jump in front of trains. It is their nightmare. It is the conductor, not the engineer, and not the EMS or law enforcement people that first go back and look and find the body or pieces thereof. Absolutely one of their worst nightmares.


There is a part of barrier- no pedistrains allowed at night on Golden Gate bridge.


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## p&sr

GoldenSpike said:


> It is right up there with suicide by cop. Depends on what one's preference is: train or bullet.


Too bad we don't have "bullet trains". Then you could get a 2-for-1 special! :blink:


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## ALC Rail Writer

Suicide by cop is not the more popular method because the Police usually recognize this and have methods to try and figure it out. That, and bullets can be aimed. With trains... well, the Engineer has no way of stopping anything.

At least with the Bridge-- no third party can emotionally think they are at fault or blame themselves.

Those who choose suicide by cop or by train typically cannot muster the courage (for lack of a better term) to actually take their own lives... technically, they get somebody else to kill them.


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## Guest_Bob_*

Can't muster courage to take their own lives?

For many, they don't have the means to reliably take their own lives. There are many stories of people slitting wrists or taking pills, but not dying. Most teens in the city don't have guns at their disposal. Even intentionally crashing their own car may not kill them. I think some find the train as being a way that they are sure to die.

I think that stepping in front of a moving train does take courage. I wish that they had even more courage -- the courage to live and find ways to make life work for them.


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## PetalumaLoco

Courage probably has little to do with it either way.

From a website about depression;



> Mortality/Morbidity
> * The morbidity of the depression is difficult to quantify. The lethality of depression, however, is measurable and is the result of completed suicide, which is the ninth leading reported cause of death in the United States.
> 
> * In 2005, 1.4% of all deaths worldwide were attributed to suicide. The real number is unknown since underreporting is predictably significant. Suicide is estimated to be the eighth leading cause of death in all age ranges.
> 
> * Almost all people who kill themselves intentionally have a diagnosable mental disorder with or without substance abuse, which in itself, is often a result of attempted self-treatment for the symptoms of depression. Approximately two thirds of individuals who complete suicide have seen a physician within a month of their death.


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## Alice

A couple of days ago, another teenager committed suicide by CalTrain. She attended the same high school as one of the deaths last month reported by George. Last night another student tried it at the same place but his mother was concerned, followed him, and prevented (with help from a bystander and dispatch) his death. This was during a community meeting regarding suicide prevention that was scheduled after the first death.

Mercury News article here.


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## George Harris

[



> Mortality/Morbidity
> * In 2005, 1.4% of all deaths worldwide were attributed to suicide. The real number is unknown since underreporting is predictably significant. Suicide is estimated to be the eighth leading cause of death in all age ranges.


This statement is very true. I have known two people that committed suicide. One of them has accidental gunshot wound on their death certificate.

Suicide is more acceptable in some societies than others, which may affect both the numbers and the reporting. Somebody can correct me if I am worng, but I once heard that in Japan if a person kills their immediate family and then themselves, is is classified as a "family suicide" rather than as murders and a suicide as it would be in the US.


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## stntylr

Once in Germany I had to help the tech's in the morgue at Landstuhl move the body of someone who had jumped in front of a train going 80 mph. I won't go into details but it was really bad.


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## Green Maned Lion

I know I am going to get flamed, but why is the inherrent act of committing suicide such a faux pas? I mean, yes, it is, perhaps, the most selfish thing a person can do. But honestly, I'd rather they stop trying to put barriers to simple one-person-involved suicides like jumping off the 'Gate. Wouldn't you rather Johnny T. Emo throw himself off the bridge into the water so that someone who has done it many times- and is thus somewhat dead to it - can pluck his body out of the water, then to have him using methods like suicide by train, mentally disturbing innocent train crew and inconveniencing commuters?

Or worse, suicide-by-truck driving his car into a 18-wheeler, and possibly taking someone else with him.


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## George Harris

Green Maned Lion said:


> I know I am going to get flamed, but why is the inherrent act of committing suicide such a faux pas? I mean, yes, it is, perhaps, the most selfish thing a person can do. But honestly, I'd rather they stop trying to put barriers to simple one-person-involved suicides like jumping off the 'Gate. Wouldn't you rather Johnny T. Emo throw himself off the bridge into the water so that someone who has done it many times- and is thus somewhat dead to it - can pluck his body out of the water, then to have him using methods like suicide by train, mentally disturbing innocent train crew and inconveniencing commuters?
> Or worse, suicide-by-truck driving his car into a 18-wheeler, and possibly taking someone else with him.


Of course none at all would be better, but if it is going to happen, I agree with you.


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## Neil_M

Green Maned Lion said:


> I know I am going to get flamed, but why is the inherrent act of committing suicide such a faux pas?


Because it ruins my day. I have worked on railway depots for 29 years this year and have seen more meat than the butchers slab.

Come and pick bits of human off the front and underneath of a train and then see if you are still thinking that suicide is an ok thing to do. Bet you will change your mind.

I detest with a passion the sad and tortured people that throw themselves in front of a train, maybe some might think that cruel and uncaring, but in all honesty I would pay for several bottles of pills and a few bottle of whiskey and they can go and ruin someone elses day.

Suicide is like sexual preference and religion, do what the hell you like , but don't even think of bothering me with it.


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## Green Maned Lion

Neil_M said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know I am going to get flamed, but why is the inherrent act of committing suicide such a faux pas?
> 
> 
> 
> Because it ruins my day. I have worked on railway depots for 29 years this year and have seen more meat than the butchers slab.
> 
> Come and pick bits of human off the front and underneath of a train and then see if you are still thinking that suicide is an ok thing to do. Bet you will change your mind.
> 
> I detest with a passion the sad and tortured people that throw themselves in front of a train, maybe some might think that cruel and uncaring, but in all honesty I would pay for several bottles of pills and a few bottle of whiskey and they can go and ruin someone elses day.
> 
> Suicide is like sexual preference and religion, do what the hell you like , but don't even think of bothering me with it.
Click to expand...

... Isn't that what I just said?


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## tp49

For whatever reason CalTrain draws a disproportionately high number of suicides. I remember KCBS doing a story about it a few years ago.


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## Ispolkom

Green Maned Lion said:


> I know I am going to get flamed, but why is the inherrent act of committing suicide such a faux pas? I mean, yes, it is, perhaps, the most selfish thing a person can do. But honestly, I'd rather they stop trying to put barriers to simple one-person-involved suicides like jumping off the 'Gate. Wouldn't you rather Johnny T. Emo throw himself off the bridge into the water so that someone who has done it many times- and is thus somewhat dead to it - can pluck his body out of the water, then to have him using methods like suicide by train, mentally disturbing innocent train crew and inconveniencing commuters?
> Or worse, suicide-by-truck driving his car into a 18-wheeler, and possibly taking someone else with him.


The reason why they ought to put barriers on the Golden Gate Bridge is because people who kill themselves often do so impulsively. Remove the method of suicide, reduce the chance of suicide. Apparently the classic example is the replacement of coal gas with natural gas in Great Britain. Lacking the classic suicide method of sticking one's head in the oven (coal gas is much higher in carbon monoxide than natural gas), the suicide rate declined significantly. This article suggests the story is more complicated, but the general trend remains. Sadly, trains are another impulse-suicide magnet, and I can't imagine how to fix that problem. Too many grade crossings.

I don't often comment on style, but this post seems a bit crass. Referring to a mentally ill person as "Johnny T. Emo" and lumping together as equivalent the trauma to train crew and the inconvenience of passengers seems to me to be intentionally offensive. Unless you have dealt personally with the aftermath of suicide, more empathy might be in order here.


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## jackal

Sam31452 said:


> You're lucky, if there are only 2 suicides "by train" a day in such a large country. In Europe we have at least a few dozen of these a day.Here you wouldn't get any publicity, just because it's too normal.
> 
> But at least the european railways are prepared and offer usually psychological help to the enigneer.
> 
> Does Caltrain offer that too?


I think that's pretty universal among American railroads, too.


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## George Harris

jackal said:


> Sam31452 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But at least the european railways are prepared and offer usually psychological help to the enigneer.Does Caltrain offer that too?
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's pretty universal among American railroads, too.
Click to expand...

Absolutely yes.

There are also signs posted at fairly frequent intervals along the Caltrain line with the anti-suicide help line number on them, along with some other words saying to the effect, "help is available"


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## Neil_M

Green Maned Lion said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know I am going to get flamed, but why is the inherrent act of committing suicide such a faux pas?
> 
> 
> 
> Because it ruins my day. I have worked on railway depots for 29 years this year and have seen more meat than the butchers slab.
> 
> Come and pick bits of human off the front and underneath of a train and then see if you are still thinking that suicide is an ok thing to do. Bet you will change your mind.
> 
> I detest with a passion the sad and tortured people that throw themselves in front of a train, maybe some might think that cruel and uncaring, but in all honesty I would pay for several bottles of pills and a few bottle of whiskey and they can go and ruin someone elses day.
> 
> Suicide is like sexual preference and religion, do what the hell you like , but don't even think of bothering me with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ... Isn't that what I just said?
Click to expand...

Not really. As usual I think it's talk over experience.


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## George Harris

Neil_M said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know I am going to get flamed, but why is the inherrent act of committing suicide such a faux pas?
> 
> 
> 
> Because it ruins my day. I have worked on railway depots for 29 years this year and have seen more meat than the butchers slab.
> 
> Come and pick bits of human off the front and underneath of a train and then see if you are still thinking that suicide is an ok thing to do. Bet you will change your mind.
> 
> I detest with a passion the sad and tortured people that throw themselves in front of a train, maybe some might think that cruel and uncaring, but in all honesty I would pay for several bottles of pills and a few bottle of whiskey and they can go and ruin someone elses day.
> 
> Suicide is like sexual preference and religion, do what the hell you like , but don't even think of bothering me with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ... Isn't that what I just said?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not really. As usual I think it's talk over experience.
Click to expand...

Neil, I don't know what you are reading into what the GML said, but as he says, I thought what you said was almost identical in concept to what he said. OK, you may have had first hand experiences he has missed, and some are well worth missing. Geting shot at is one that comes to mind, but still it appears that he said generally what you have expressed more specifically. Maybe this is a case of the English and the Americans being divided by a common language?


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## Green Maned Lion

Ispolkom said:


> I don't often comment on style, but this post seems a bit crass. Referring to a mentally ill person as "Johnny T. Emo" and lumping together as equivalent the trauma to train crew and the inconvenience of passengers seems to me to be intentionally offensive. Unless you have dealt personally with the aftermath of suicide, more empathy might be in order here.


Why do you presume to know how much experience I have with suicides? Having even myself contemplated it at one point in my life, I have some understanding of the mechanics that lead to it. I also know what stopped me, and thus, what must be missing in people who do it's mental facilities. What stopped me was realizing that inflicting the pain and suffering I would bring upon my family- I had no friends - was not worth putting myself out of my own misery at the time.

If some person can't recognize what they are doing, besides ending their own pain, frankly, I have absolutely no sympathy for them. Better off dead, all other things being equal. I deeply sympathize with their loved ones. I deeply sympathize with the innocent bystanders traumatized by their act of complete and total selfishness. But the so-called "suicide victim"? Not at all. They aren't the victim- they are the perpetrator.


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## GG-1

Green Maned Lion said:


> If some person can't recognize what they are doing, besides ending their own pain, frankly, I have absolutely no sympathy for them. Better off dead, all other things being equal. I deeply sympathize with their loved ones. I deeply sympathize with the innocent bystanders traumatized by their act of complete and total selfishness. But the so-called "suicide victim"? Not at all. They aren't the victim- they are the perpetrator.


Aloha

On this subject, I would prefer not to agree with GML, but he is correct. Suicide is a cowards decision, the Victim's are those left behind. I Pray that no one has to deal with this, But, So I also pray for the survivors support.


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## PetalumaLoco

I refer back to my post earlier in this thread;



> Almost all people who kill themselves intentionally have a diagnosable mental disorder with or without substance abuse, which in itself, is often a result of attempted self-treatment for the symptoms of depression. Approximately two thirds of individuals who complete suicide have seen a physician within a month of their death.


Nothing to do with cowardice, or courage.


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## Green Maned Lion

PetalumaLoco said:


> I refer back to my post earlier in this thread;
> 
> 
> 
> Almost all people who kill themselves intentionally have a diagnosable mental disorder with or without substance abuse, which in itself, is often a result of attempted self-treatment for the symptoms of depression. Approximately two thirds of individuals who complete suicide have seen a physician within a month of their death.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing to do with cowardice, or courage.
Click to expand...

I have several mental disorders, dude. I'm nuerotic or psychotic, depending on which doctor you ask (DSMIII says psychotic, DSMIV says neurotic. Take your pick.) I have ADHD. I have mild schizophrenia. I was, at the time, clinically depressed. I had been seeing a psychologist.

None of those excuse the action. Not one of them. None of them excuse anything. As someone who has lived there life battling both mental and physical handicaps, and usually succeed at it, I have little tolerance for people who sit around whining about their problems instead of doing their best to overcome as much of it as they can. I have even less tolerance for the people who say "omg, how can you hold them responsible, they are [insert some disability or disorder]." You're damned right I hold them responsible.

If you can't make a decision to not kill yourself, you are so far gone any therapist would have you in in-patient treatment. I said can't and mean it. Making the choice is making a choice.


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## PetalumaLoco

GML

Sorry to say we disagree.

Not going to change your mind, so I'll leave it at that.

Dude.


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## Spokker

Green Maned Lion said:


> I have several mental disorders, dude. I'm nuerotic or psychotic, depending on which doctor you ask (DSMIII says psychotic, DSMIV says neurotic. Take your pick.) I have ADHD. I have mild schizophrenia. I was, at the time, clinically depressed. I had been seeing a psychologist.


Yeah but isn't that every railfan? Me? I have all of those plus Autistic disorder, Borderline personality disorder, Dependent personality disorder, Narcissistic personality disorder, Pyromania, Palin-mania and I have a membership to NARP and I've never contemplated killing myself. Beat _that_, hotshot!


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## Neil_M

Spokker said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have several mental disorders, dude. I'm nuerotic or psychotic, depending on which doctor you ask (DSMIII says psychotic, DSMIV says neurotic. Take your pick.) I have ADHD. I have mild schizophrenia. I was, at the time, clinically depressed. I had been seeing a psychologist.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but isn't that every railfan? Me? I have all of those plus Autistic disorder, Borderline personality disorder, Dependent personality disorder, Narcissistic personality disorder, Pyromania, Palin-mania and I have a membership to NARP and I've never contemplated killing myself. Beat _that_, hotshot!
Click to expand...

I remember when people just used to be "odd". Now everyone has to have every disorder and syndrome going.

Possibly just attention seeking........


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## Spokker

Neil_M said:


> I remember when people just used to be "odd". Now everyone has to have every disorder and syndrome going.Possibly just attention seeking........


Palin-mania is a very serious disease and I won't have this kind of talk about it, Mister.


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## PetalumaLoco

Spokker said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember when people just used to be "odd". Now everyone has to have every disorder and syndrome going.Possibly just attention seeking........
> 
> 
> 
> Palin-mania is a very serious disease and I won't have this kind of talk about it, Mister.
Click to expand...

You won't have her to kick around much longer... link.


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## Green Maned Lion

PetalumaLoco said:


> Spokker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember when people just used to be "odd". Now everyone has to have every disorder and syndrome going.Possibly just attention seeking........
> 
> 
> 
> Palin-mania is a very serious disease and I won't have this kind of talk about it, Mister.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You won't have her to kick around much longer... link.
Click to expand...

Speaking of insanity, she says she's going to run for president. No, not of the American Dog Catchers Union. Which I hope she couldn't get elected to anyway.


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## tp49

Green Maned Lion said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spokker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Palin-mania is a very serious disease and I won't have this kind of talk about it, Mister.
> 
> 
> 
> You won't have her to kick around much longer... link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Speaking of insanity, she says she's going to run for president. No, not of the American Dog Catchers Union. Which I hope she couldn't get elected to anyway.
Click to expand...

Ahhh yes. This would fall under political suicide.


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## jackal

Green Maned Lion said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spokker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember when people just used to be "odd". Now everyone has to have every disorder and syndrome going.Possibly just attention seeking........
> 
> 
> 
> Palin-mania is a very serious disease and I won't have this kind of talk about it, Mister.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You won't have her to kick around much longer... link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Speaking of insanity, she says she's going to run for president.
Click to expand...

Actually, she hasn't said that. Ever. She has indicated, at most, a possible interest in doing it someday, but knowing two people fairly close to her (close, as in her press secretary and her lieutenant governor), I honestly believe she hasn't made up her mind on that issue yet.

Truly, I think she was just done having her family (not even her, her _family_) ruthlessly attacked. (I mean, why does an infant with a severe disability deserve to be humiliated in public? Bristol I understand--she put herself in the limelight--but Trig? Sheesh. I don't blame her. And to put her $500,000 in debt to and the state on the hook for $300,000 in legal bills for frivolous ethics charges (all of which have been dismissed) is just absurd.

I think she honestly thinks she is doing what's best for Alaska. Knowing personally some of the people she surrounds herself with and having met and discussed issues with her, I firmly believe she is humble at heart and not self-serving at all. She is a person of such convictions that she can't idly stand by and watch her family and her constituents have to go through this nonsense any longer. You can accuse her of naivete or ineptitude or inexperience, and I can to some measure understand and even agree with that, but painting her as a mean-spirited, manipulative, evil, only out for her own political gain (which, if that were the case, would be absolutely counter to her decision yesterday) or whatever is NOT something I can allow to go unchallenged, because I KNOW it to be false.

As to Neil's latest response, which was posted after I started typing the above (and so I can't quote it without flipping between a few windows): I take personal offense to what you posted. Thank you for calling this great state "unimportant." And I know MANY, MANY people who hold similar beliefs to Palin--and, in fact, a very sizable segment of our country (probably more people than are in the UK total) probably agree with her on most of those stances, and if you then attempt to use that fact to paint this entire country--perhaps indeed the greatest country on the non-fictional religious symbol of my choice's green earth--as stark raving bonkers, well, think about what kind of flame war that'll get you on in here. It's easy to label some politician you'll never have contact with with some defamatory label, but if you're going to call her bonkers with a side of nutcase and looney toon, you're going to have to call me that, too, to my [virtual] face. I dare you. But remember, name-calling is never as productive as producing logical arguments against specific beliefs and policies.


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## MrFSS

Friends - these will be shut down if they aren't kept civil. Several posts have already been deleted.

Please - leave the politics out of it.

Thanks!!


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## Green Maned Lion

Jackal: Perhaps you know her in various circumstances I don't, so I admit my lack of qualifications. Maybe she just sucks at putting herself forward or something. What I have seen of her in unedited speeches and such is someone who is very self-serving and not very intelligent. Granted, this is a limited channel from which to view somebody. Her conservative brand of politics is my main reason for disliking her for candidacy. I don't like that ultra-conservative (to simplify my already longwinded description) leaning at all.

I do agree with you that the way the media spent the days after the election whipping a dead horse about all kinds of things, as well as the way they treated her family was uncalled for. But its the way the media works in this country (a horrible thing, but being naive isn't much better!) and if you place yourself in the position of election to vice president, you should expect people to pick on your life with an electron microscope and be prepared to answer for the time you farted inappropriately while soloing at your 5th grade school play. You want the power and prestige, this is what you sacrifice.


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## DET63

Green Maned Lion said:


> Jackal: Perhaps you know her in various circumstances I don't, so I admit my lack of qualifications. Maybe she just sucks at putting herself forward or something. What I have seen of her in unedited speeches and such is someone who is very self-serving and not very intelligent. Granted, this is a limited channel from which to view somebody. Her conservative brand of politics is my main reason for disliking her for candidacy. I don't like that ultra-conservative (to simplify my already longwinded description) leaning at all.
> I do agree with you that the way the media spent the days after the election whipping a dead horse about all kinds of things, as well as the way they treated her family was uncalled for. But its the way the media works in this country (a horrible thing, but being naive isn't much better!) and if you place yourself in the position of election to vice president, you should expect people to pick on your life with an electron microscope and be prepared to answer for the time you farted inappropriately while soloing at your 5th grade school play. You want the power and prestige, this is what you sacrifice.


We're getting off-topic here. I'll just say that I think the media has treated some political figures far differently than others. Those that are in power right now have, for the most part, been treated with "kid gloves." Others have been treated with anything but.

That said, none of these things have motivated me to either (a) want to kill someone, or (b) want to commit suicide, either by jumping in front of a train, overdosing on pills (a la Michael Jackson, if his death was a suicide--and with him, who knows?), jumping off a bridge, etc.


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## Green Maned Lion

DET63 said:


> We're getting off-topic here. I'll just say that I think the media has treated some political figures far differently than others. Those that are in power right now have, for the most part, been treated with "kid gloves." Others have been treated with anything but.


I don't deny that. But if you go into public office, you need to be prepared to sacrifice that, whether it happens or not. I have no idea what the other side is able to put up with- one of these days, the sleezebags that run our national media system will probably provide the impetus to let us find out.


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