# Cops called after fliers fight over seat recline



## CHamilton

Cops called after fliers fight over seat recline


> Airline passengers have come to expect a tiny escape from the confined space of today's packed planes: the ability to recline their seat a few inches. When one passenger was denied that bit of personal space Sunday, it led to a heated argument and the unscheduled landing of their plane, just halfway to its destination.
> The fight started on a United Airlines flight because one passenger was using the Knee Defender, a $21.95 gadget that attaches to a passenger's tray table and prevents the person in front of them from reclining.
> 
> The Federal Aviation Administration leaves it up to individual airlines to set rules about the device. United Airlines said it prohibits use of the device, like all major U.S. airlines. Spirit Airlines and Allegiant Air take the reclining mechanisms out of their seats, leaving them permanently upright.
> 
> The dispute on United Flight 1462 from Newark, New Jersey to Denver escalated to the point where the airline decided to divert to Chicago's O'Hare International Airport, according to Transportation Security Administration spokesman Ross Feinstein.
> 
> Chicago Police and TSA officers met the flight, spoke to the passengers -- a man and a woman, both 48 -- and "deemed it a customer service issue," Feinstein said. The TSA would not name the passengers.
> 
> The plane then continued to Denver without them, arriving 1 hour and 38 minutes late, according to the airline's website.


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## oregon pioneer

Yet another good reason not to fly. "Plane rage."

 :angry2: :angry:


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## SarahZ

> A flight attendant asked him to remove the device and he refused.


Entitled jerk. :angry:

I'm not saying the woman was in her right to throw a cup of water at him, but come on, people. Now some passengers are probably missing their connections because one guy is selfish and refuses to play by the airline's rules and one woman can't control her temper?

Ugh.

I hope UA bans him for refusing to obey an FA's orders. I'm on the fence about the woman. (Not that I think it was okay to do what she did, but she didn't resist an FA like he did.)


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## railiner

Sounds like that gadget should be banned from the cabins. And anyone that does get into an altercation in flight should be permanently placed on TSA's "No-Fly List"......

There is no room for "air-rage" on an airliner.....


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## SubwayNut

They were also both sitting in United Economy Plus Too!

I've gotten 'free' upgrades to it a few times (booking late on full planes) and it definitely makes a big difference in terms of legroom. I'd consider paying for it on a really long flight.


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## tp49

SarahZ said:


> A flight attendant asked him to remove the device and he refused.
> 
> 
> 
> Entitled jerk. :angry:
> 
> I'm not saying the woman was in her right to throw a cup of water at him, but come on, people. Now some passengers are probably missing their connections because one guy is selfish and refuses to play by the airline's rules and one woman can't control her temper?
> 
> Ugh.
> 
> I hope UA bans him for refusing to obey an FA's orders. I'm on the fence about the woman. (Not that I think it was okay to do what she did, but she didn't resist an FA like he did.)
Click to expand...

Ban them both. In reality he shouldn't have used the knee defender and should have removed it when instructed to by the crew. While I love the premise of the knee defender the best course of action is to let the flight crew deal with the issue and complain to customer service once on the ground. Committing a battery by throwing water at someone isn't the answer and she should be banned accordingly as it was the water throwing that resulted in the diversion (per the article).

The true blame is on both the airlines for cramming too many seats into coach, and the inconsiderate folks who inhabit said seats. I say this having almost had a laptop snapped in half while working on it by someone who shot the seat back without so much as a word which would have given me a chance to rearrange things. Nowadays I don't even try to use a laptop on a plane due to the cramped space and just use an ipad instead to work or whatever.

Of course the true solution is either install seats with no recline like Spirit or Allegiant or take a couple of rows out and give the sardines some space.


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## xyzzy

I fly frequently - mostly on American - and I'd be happy to see the majors get rid of seatback recline just like Spirit and Allegiant have. The notion of reclining seats makes no sense when seat pitch is less than 35-36 inches. No domestic airline has a seat pitch like that anymore except in first class, and even the first class sets are coming down to 37-38.


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## Green Maned Lion

Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.


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## AmtrakBlue

I think a little incline should be allowed. Not everyone is comfortable sitting "straight up". But, they should restrict how much they recline so that the recline does not impede on the person behind the seat.


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## Devil's Advocate

AmtrakBlue said:


> I think a little incline should be allowed. Not everyone is comfortable sitting "straight up". But, they should restrict how much they recline so that the recline does not impede on the person behind the seat.


I'm a taller guy and the way airline rows have been setup these days my knees are already pushing against the seat in front of me before it is reclined even the slightest amount. When the person in front of me forces their seat to recline anyway it's physically painful to me. I'm not trying to be dramatic here; it's genuinely painful and cannot be rectified until they willingly move their seat back. Over the course of hundreds of flights I've never once seen even a single passenger look back before shoving their seat into my knees and it often takes multiple requests to get them to move it back again. The knee defender is a real product serving a real purpose. I think the airlines don't like it because it draws attention to the undesirable nature of the modern flying. In general I don't bother reclining my seat on most flights because the amount of recline is borderline useless while being potentially disastrous for the person behind me. Whenever I do recline I make an effort to look back and make sure I'm not creating problem for the person behind me.


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## SarahZ

Devil's Advocate said:


> Whenever I do recline I make an effort to look back and make sure I'm not creating problem for the person behind me.


Ditto. I also hold the back of the seat (behind my head) with one hand while pushing the button with the other. That helps me keep control of it so it doesn't slam back, even if it's just an inch or two. Also, I never recline on an airplane if the person behind me appears taller than 5'6".

I also do this on Amtrak. Even though there's more leg room, I only recline about an inch or two (on the regionals) if the person behind me is tall. If they're about my height or shorter, I'll recline a bit more, but I still hold the seat so it doesn't slam back. I don't want stuff to go flying off their tray.

It comes down to common courtesy, which is so rare these days. :angry:


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## xyzzy

Another aspect is that while seat pitch has decreased, load factors have increased. Used to be that if you didn't like your seat for whatever reason, there was always an empty row in the back -- unless you were flying on Monday morning, Friday afternoon, or a holiday weekend. Now with average load factor in the 70s or 80s, it's difficult to move around in-flight.


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## JayPea

I don't recline my seat at all. The flights I generally take usually aren't much over two hours in length and I can endure that long. Plus though I don't have as much common courtesy as I should I do try to think of those sitting behind me.


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## AmtrakBlue

I rarely fly (only because of finances/time), but when I have, I don't recall ever reclining anyway. Usually my nose is glued to the window (except that one time I was only able to get a middle seat  because I had to wait till the "last minute" to book the flight). On my way home on that trip, I had a middle seat initially, but was able to change seats at the gate. She warned me it could not recline due to the bulk head (last row on the plane), and I said that was fine because I'd be looking out the window the whole time.


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## SarahZ

JayPea said:


> I don't recline my seat at all. The flights I generally take usually aren't much over two hours in length and I can endure that long. Plus though I don't have as much common courtesy as I should I do try to think of those sitting behind me.


True. I only recline on flights approaching four hours, and even then, it's just an inch or so to help relieve the pressure on my back and legs.


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## AmtrakBlue

I'm not looking forward to long flights to/from San Jose in the coming months/years. Hopefully I'll work in some good (time/location/costs) layovers to break up the trip. Or maybe incorporate a train part the way (preferably east bound).


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## PRR 60

There are some people who push their seat into full recline when barely airborne, then need a personal reminder (or two) from the flight attendant to return the seat upright prior to landing. Invariably, I'm behind one of those clowns. They are typically the same people who have no clue how security works and holds up the line, then has no clue what zone boarding is all about and tries to board in Zone 1 with a Zone 4 BP.

During the flight, if I have to get up to use the facilities, I make a point of accidentally on purpose giving their seatback a nice, firm bump on the way out, and then again upon my return. If they are napping at the time, even better. It's a minor revenge, but satisfying none the less.


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## fairviewroad

Like others here, I rarely recline my seat (not counting red-eyes, for which I believe the expectations are different).

That said, I make no apologies for reclining my seat and I make no attempt to ask permission. It is my seat. My space.

I have paid for it. The person in front of me is entitled to do the same, as is the person behind me. By using my seat

in the manner in which it is designed, I am not infringing upon anyone else. And frankly, anyone flying coach who

decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.

Frankly I'm shocked that frequent travelers such as those on this forum are resentful that a paying customer decides

to use an amenity to which he or she is entitled. Am I to ask permission to use the lav? The reading lamp? The IFE?

All of those potentially infringe on others.

To the situation described in the OP...I'm with those who say both travelers should be punished/banned. Neither's

actions were remotely justifiable.


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## SarahZ

If reclining your seat causes physical pain to someone because you have entered _their_ space that _their_ knees currently occupy, then yes, you are infringing.

This is why some airlines removed the ability to recline. Yes, it is your seat, but it's not your _space_. Only your seat and the area your legs occupy is your personal space.

To me, it's akin to opening a car door into a parking space and hitting someone else's car. You have to be careful and make sure you aren't going to "collide" with the other passenger when you move your seat in such a manner.


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## fairviewroad

SarahZ said:


> If reclining your seat causes physical pain to someone because you have entered _their_ space that _their_ knees currently occupy, then yes, you are infringing.
> 
> This is why some airlines removed the ability to recline. Yes, it is your seat, but it's not your _space_. Only your seat and the area your legs occupy is your personal space.
> 
> To me, it's akin to opening a car door into a parking space and hitting someone else's car. You have to be careful and make sure you aren't going to "collide" with the other passenger when you move your seat in such a manner.


Obviously we don't agree on this. 

But--honest question here--where do you come up with the definition of what constitutes your personal space? The airline does not define it

that way. The airline allows passengers to recline their seat unless instructed otherwise by a crew member (i.e. for take-off and landing, and

during meal service on the rare flight that still offers it). Your definition is simply not shared by the carriers that offer reclining seats.

So by reclining my seat (again, something I rarely do on daytime flights) I am simply using an amenity of the aircraft which I am entitled to use. Why do others insist on having me ask permission to use such an amenity?

As you say, there are airlines that don't offer the amenity of reclining seats and if I were to fly them, I would not insist on that amenity, in the

same way that I do not insist on free liquor in coach or priority boarding, etc.


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## saxman

Okay, I'm a frequent flyer, and I usually recline. Much of the time, I can get an Economy Plus/Main Cabin Extra/Economy Comfort so it's not an issue to recline. But I will glance back and see if the person behind me "reacts" and just do it slowly. I've only had one guy literally push my seat back up with his knees or arms. I was super tired and the flight was leaving around midnight, and really wanted sleep. We came to a compromise and I reclined an inch or two. For me, most seats are too straight up. I've only sat on an Allegiant plane once, and their seats are built with a slight recline already. I usually don't mind if the person in front of me reclines. I just put my knees at the hinge point anyway, and after takeoff I'll put my carryon bag behind my feet so I can stretch my feet under the seat in front, and I'm quite comfortable. For me, when I have the option, I'd rather have the seat next to me empty rather than the leg room. I'd sit in the very back for that!


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## SarahZ

saxman said:


> For me, when I have the option, I'd rather have the seat next to me empty rather than the leg room. I'd sit in the very back for that!


Ditto. My inseam is only 30", so I never have issues with the leg room. (I put my carry-on in the bin.)

Even though I can fit in one seat now, I still buy a second one if I can afford it, simply to have that buffer zone. Plus, I tell the person on the aisle to feel free to use the empty seat for their coat/magazine/phone/whatever as well. Instant friend.


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## leemell

Green Maned Lion said:


> Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.


Well, technically, it is a battery. 'Battery was defined at common law as "any unlawful touching of the person of another by the aggressor himself, or by a substance put in motion by him."' This is the most used common definition. On the other hand, it is officers discretion in many places.


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## tp49

Green Maned Lion said:


> Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.


It is a battery under both the common law (tort) definition and the penal code definition in I'm sure pretty much every jurisdiction. This is the California Penal Code definition of battery:



> 242. A battery is any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another.


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## tp49

fairviewroad said:


> Like others here, I rarely recline my seat (not counting red-eyes, for which I believe the expectations are different).
> 
> That said, I make no apologies for reclining my seat and I make no attempt to ask permission. It is my seat. My space.
> 
> I have paid for it. The person in front of me is entitled to do the same, as is the person behind me. By using my seat
> 
> in the manner in which it is designed, I am not infringing upon anyone else. And frankly, anyone flying coach who
> 
> decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.
> 
> Frankly I'm shocked that frequent travelers such as those on this forum are resentful that a paying customer decides
> 
> to use an amenity to which he or she is entitled. Am I to ask permission to use the lav? The reading lamp? The IFE?
> 
> All of those potentially infringe on others.


The problem comes if you damaged someone's laptop or other expensive electronic device because you couldn't at the bare minimum take a look back or say something to the guy behind you to give them a warning and time to reposition or put their device away.


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## Ispolkom

saxman said:


> . For me, when I have the option, I'd rather have the seat next to me empty rather than the leg room. I'd sit in the very back for that!


Or, alternately, row 17 on some American Airlines 737s, where the middle seat is blocked. Mrs. Ispolkom discovered this for a flight last May, and it was well worth the extra $20-30.


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## railiner

Ispolkom said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> 
> . For me, when I have the option, I'd rather have the seat next to me empty rather than the leg room. I'd sit in the very back for that!
> 
> 
> 
> Or, alternately, row 17 on some American Airlines 737s, where the middle seat is blocked. Mrs. Ispolkom discovered this for a flight last May, and it was well worth the extra $20-30.
Click to expand...

Nice find! It reminds me of when AA was operating some or their F-28-100's out of Love Field during the restricted distance era....they reconfigured them with only sixty seats, to comply with the capacity limit, essentially all business class at a coach fare.


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## fairviewroad

tp49 said:


> The problem comes if you damaged someone's laptop or other expensive electronic device because you couldn't at the bare minimum take a look back or say something to the guy behind you to give them a warning and time to reposition or put their device away.


No, not my problem, sorry. The person behind me is welcome to ask me to give them a heads-up before I recline...I would gladly accommodate such a request. But I can't be held responsible for actions caused by my using the seat in the way in which it was designed to be used. Got a problem...take it up with the carrier. As I said before, it's astonishingly naive to set up a laptop on a traytable in coach class.

This guy in the NYT agrees with me:



> A no-recline norm would also have troubling social justice implications — for short people. Complaints about knee-room are not spread equally across our society. They are voiced mostly by the tall, a privileged group that already enjoys many advantages. I don’t just mean they can see well at concerts and reach high shelves. Tall people earn more money than short people, an average of $789 per inch per year, according to a 2004 paper in the Journal of Applied Psychology.
> 
> Instead of counting their blessings, or buying extra-legroom seats with some of their extra income, *the tall have the gall to demand that the rules of flying be reconfigured to their advantage*, just as everything else in life already has been.


Last I checked, being tall does not come under the ADA and does not require special accommodations. It is entirely possible that not every airline seat is appropriate for every customer. I purchase airline seats that are appropriate for my travel needs. Don't you?


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## Green Maned Lion

tp49 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a battery under both the common law (tort) definition and the penal code definition in I'm sure pretty much every jurisdiction. This is the California Penal Code definition of battery:
> 
> 
> 
> 242. A battery is any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Throwing water is neither forceful nor violent, legally speaking. It does not cause pain, does not injure, and most likely does no damage whatsoever.


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## Paulus

Green Maned Lion said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a battery under both the common law (tort) definition and the penal code definition in I'm sure pretty much every jurisdiction. This is the California Penal Code definition of battery:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 242. A battery is any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Throwing water is neither forceful nor violent, legally speaking. It does not cause pain, does not injure, and most likely does no damage whatsoever.
Click to expand...

Example of someone being charged with it for throwing water in someone's face. There's also this old legal text:



> It appears from the foregoing examples that it is not necessary to constitute a battery that the touch or blow or other contact should come directly from the defendant's person. Indeed, a battery may be committed at any distance between the parties if only some violence be done to the plaintiff's person, The hitting one with a stone, or an arrow, or other missile is no less a battery than the striking one with the fist. *It is not necessary even that the object cast should do physical harm; the battery consists in the unpermitted contact not in the damage. For example: The defendant spits or throws water upon the plaintiff. This is a battery though no harm be done*


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## CHamilton

Mike James on Facebook:



> From the What Did You Expect? Department:
> ...
> - other than the Knee Defender user being a total jerk (the passenger in front paid for that reclining seat) and the water tosser for not keeping her cool, let's park blame for this fiasco where it belongs - on the airlines, willing to do about anything from multiple fees to jamming coach passengers into a plane like fish in a sardine can to increase earnings, and on Wall Street investors in airline stock (who love the return if profits rise, never mind passenger discomfort).
> - toss a bit of blame on ticket buyers - if we want the lowest price we fly in a space more confining than seats in a Prius (hence the Knee Defender, blocking the recline that jams your too-small table right into your chest). Americans like to shop on price only, but the old saying still holds - "you get what you pay for."
> 
> And oh, Knee Defender sales are soaring........
> What did you expect?


Airplane scuffle spurs Knee Defender sales



> Ira Goldman, the inventor of a pair of clips called "Knee Defender," says the website that sells the product has been overwhelmed since reports of the fight on the Newark-Denver flight surfaced. The Knee Defender clips block passengers from reclining an airline seat.
> "We had 500 times the normal traffic," said Goldman. "Maybe Amazon can handle that, but I can't."
> Goldman believes he has enough of the clips in inventory to handle the surge in orders. The Knee Defenders sell for $21.95 a pair, plus shipping and handling.
> "We'll be placing a new order with the factory in China," he said. He declined to say his typical sales or give an estimate as to Tuesday's surge.


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## DesertRat

I don't know how one can fit a laptop on those trays. Even on Amtrak I don't find the trays big enough to accommodate a laptop. But I agree that the space is ridiculous.

Somebody just pointed out that we vote with our money. You want more space? Pay for it. I suspect that enough people will keep paying the lowest rates though.


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## trainman74

DesertRat said:


> I don't know how one can fit a laptop on those trays. Even on Amtrak I don't find the trays big enough to accommodate a laptop.


My MacBook Pro with a 13-inch screen does fit (barely) on United's tray tables.


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## Devil's Advocate

fairviewroad said:


> I make no apologies for reclining my seat and I make no attempt to ask permission. It is my seat. My space. I have paid for it.


In all my years of flying I've never once seen or heard any mention of my purchasing a specific amount of space for my personal use. Nor have I seen anything indicating that a specific amount of seat recline is part of my purchase. Certainly not in any of the purchasing pages, confirmation documents, recap emails, tickets, ticket jackets, or boarding passes.



fairviewroad said:


> By using my seat in the manner in which it is designed, I am not infringing upon anyone else.


The people who designed the seat recline probably played no role in determining the eventual spacing of those seats. As the seats have been moved closer and closer over the years the relative usefulness and practical application of the recline function has indeed been impacted. Unfortunately for some folks new information is no match for prior assumptions.



fairviewroad said:


> And frankly, anyone flying coach who decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.


To be perfectly frank you seem to be the only member who is "itching for a confrontation" over this.


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## GG-1

Aloha

A bunch of years ago, some sorts jock, reclined his seat during taxi to the runway, hitting me in the face. The Stews did nothing about it. When I made a written complaint about it to the Airline I received a reply that his sports need out weighed my comfort. I forwarded this to the FAA and received no reply. I have never used that airline again.


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## DesertRat

trainman74 said:


> DesertRat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how one can fit a laptop on those trays. Even on Amtrak I don't find the trays big enough to accommodate a laptop.
> 
> 
> 
> My MacBook Pro with a 13-inch screen does fit (barely) on United's tray tables.
Click to expand...

 wow that's pretty small. Mine is a Toshiba 15 incher.


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## Green Maned Lion

It might be small but at least it is expensive.


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## oregon pioneer

Green Maned Lion said:


> It might be small but at least it is expensive.


I have a small and *inexpensive* Acer, loaded with freeware, just for travel. I leave my deluxe-sized and featured Lenovo at home, and just send my travel writing to it when I'm done. If I am ever forced to fly (which I sincerely hope I will not be), this thread will reinforce my caution with it.


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## railiner

The story was picked up by most of the national press....I hope it doesn't lead to more use of the device and resulting confrontation's....and hope it's use is not attempted on Amtrak tray tables, (not sure if it would work on those).....


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## leemell

In a story in the news on the maker of those devices he said that he has had a 500% increase in orders and is close to selling out. He is placing an new order from his Chinese manufacturer.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Perhaps it's time for more Premium Economy. 5-abreast should work fine on narrowbodies. Really can't understand why the International Premium Economy costs so much.


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## Ispolkom

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Perhaps it's time for more Premium Economy.


They were both sitting in Economy Plus, which has four extra inches of legroom.


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## xyzzy

Economy Plus, Main Cabin Extra, or whatever you call it is just the norm from 20 years ago. And many or most of the people flying in the premium economy cabin are top-tier frequent flyers who despise seatback recline.

5-abreast has been done on 707/727/737; Air Canada offered it on their 727s for many years. It's great for people at 200+ pounds. But it won't help the legroom problem which is the source of most angst these days.

International premium economy is priced at whatever the market will bear. A number of employers, including my own, no longer allow business class on transatlantic flights but will approve premium economy. When you buy an international premium economy ticket, you're bidding against a lot of people whose employers are paying the bill.


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## jis

Just to give another perspective, there was at least one occasion when a 5'2" tall lady sitting behind me in Acela Coach got very upset when I reclined my seat. I told her to call a Conductor if she wanted to discuss the matter further and stop yelling at me, and then put my Bose headphone on. She apparently did not think a Conductor would help, so that settled that. So you don;t have to be on a plane for someone to go a bit non-linear in their behavior.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I personally don't feel a big problem with the guy in front reclining when I'm not using a tray table. And I'm taller than 5'2".

Economy Plus is virtually no different from Economy except a tiny bit more legroom. It is not Premium Economy. If US airlines would actually introduce Premium Economy then maybe less people would fight over this.

I agree with legroom >>> seat width but I'm not a big guy and some people want seat width >>> legroom.


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## DesertRat

Hmm here's the latest fracas in the reclining wars:

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11318537


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## JayPea

Here's the story in the "offending" passenger's own words:


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## SarahZ

JayPea said:


> Here's the story in the "offending" passenger's own words:


Water in the face would anger me, but I could deal. Sprite thrown at me and my laptop? Yeah, not okay. If that sugary crap got into the keyboard, you'd owe me a new one.


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## CHamilton

Zing! Amtrak posts on Facebook.


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## jis

And yet it was in an Acela that I got yelled at for reclining my seat 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> And yet it was in an Acela that I got yelled at for reclining my seat
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Now that you're moving to Florida where people are friendlier, maybe you won't get yelled at while riding on the train! (but you may get a yoga lesson!


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## Green Maned Lion

I have oft felt that Florida is the only place with less friendly people than in NYMA.


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## fairviewroad

Devil's Advocate said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I make no apologies for reclining my seat and I make no attempt to ask permission. It is my seat. My space. I have paid for it.
> 
> 
> 
> In all my years of flying I've never once seen or heard any mention of my purchasing a specific amount of space for my personal use. Nor have I seen anything indicating that a specific amount of seat recline is part of my purchase. Certainly not in any of the purchasing pages, confirmation documents, recap emails, tickets, ticket jackets, or boarding passes.
Click to expand...

United specifies "seat recline" on its seating charts. American, on its seating charts, points out that some rows

have "limited recline" or "no recline." On Flyertalk there are many cases of people getting compensation from airlines

when their seat is defective and does not recline. The ability to recline a seat is an expected and advertised amenity on

airlines that offer it. You might also note that the Knee Defender is not permitted by all major US carriers. Seriously, what

can you derive from this other than that airlines wish for their passengers to be able to use their seats as designed?



Devil's Advocate said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> And frankly, anyone flying coach who decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank you seem to be the only member who is "itching for a confrontation" over this.
Click to expand...

Because I'm defending my point of view? :huh:


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## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> I have oft felt that Florida is the only place with less friendly people than in NYMA.


Assuming that this pithy comment is somehow related to my comment about being yelled at for reclining my seat in an Acela, how did Florida come up in this discussion. Last time I looked there were no Acelas running around in Florida.
If it was about something else then I suppose I have no idea what the context of the statement is, so I will just ignore the whole line of conversation.


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## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have oft felt that Florida is the only place with less friendly people than in NYMA.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming that this pithy comment is somehow related to my comment about being yelled at for reclining my seat in an Acela, how did Florida come up in this discussion. Last time I looked there were no Acelas running around in Florida.
> If it was about something else then I suppose I have no idea what the context of the statement is, so I will just ignore the whole line of conversation.
Click to expand...

I think he was responding to Jim's post which said Floridians were friendlier.


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## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have oft felt that Florida is the only place with less friendly people than in NYMA.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming that this pithy comment is somehow related to my comment about being yelled at for reclining my seat in an Acela, how did Florida come up in this discussion. Last time I looked there were no Acelas running around in Florida.
> If it was about something else then I suppose I have no idea what the context of the statement is, so I will just ignore the whole line of conversation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he was responding to Jim's post which said Floridians were friendlier.
Click to expand...

Ah OK, That is why god invented excerpting of context in messages  
Yeah, I do find that the Floridians are more laid back and friendlier and considerably less stuck up than folks in NYMA. Of course it doesn't really take much to achieve that  But when it comes to socio/political attitudes they are weirder in the unpredictable direction when compared to the NYMA crowd in general. So you win some and lose some.


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## Devil's Advocate

fairviewroad said:


> United specifies "seat recline" on its seating charts. American, on its seating charts, points out that some rows have "limited recline" or "no recline." On Flyertalk there are many cases of people getting compensation from airlines when their seat is defective and does not recline. The ability to recline a seat is an expected and advertised amenity on airlines that offer it. You might also note that the Knee Defender is not permitted by all major US carriers. Seriously, what can you derive from this other than that airlines wish for their passengers to be able to use their seats as designed?


The airlines did not design the seats. The seat designers did not determine the pitch. The combination of those two variables is what’s creating this problem. What part of that is still confusing you?

Today’s seats barely recline at all and yet when they do recline there is so little clearance that they risk causing pain or injury to the passenger behind them. Due to the relative strengths and weaknesses of the human body if a passenger pushes his back into the cushions of their seat they will be able to substantially overpower the hard plastic and metal actuators which impact the unprotected kneecaps of the passenger behind them. Presumably this is why someone came up with the idea of a device that prevents people from using their seat in a way that harms others just to get an extra inch or two of recline. In the past I thought it was a rather silly that someone felt we needed to take things that far. I figured a simple explanation of the problem and an appeal for civility would be enough to resolve it. Nonetheless you've made it quite clear that all the explaining in the world won’t deter some people. I guess some folks just cannot accept that some things may change over time and that they just might have to change along with it. Which I suppose is why the Knee Defender exists in the first place.



fairviewroad said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> And frankly, anyone flying coach who decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank you seem to be the only member who is "itching for a confrontation" over this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because I'm defending my point of view? :huh:
Click to expand...

You’re free to continue defending your point of view and I’m free to continue defending my knees from people like you. If both of us end up getting kicked off a plane then as you can imagine it’s a small price to pay to protect my knees from harm. I wonder if you’ll feel the same way after making a scene over three inches of recline most folks would barely notice let alone miss.


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## fairviewroad

Devil's Advocate said:


> The airlines did not design the seats. The seat designers did not determine the pitch. The combination of those two variables is whats creating this problem. What part of that is still confusing you?


Actually, I am genuinely confused by your logic here. You speak as though the airline has no control over the content of its aircraft. Airlines can configure their cabins however they like. They can space the seats as close [FAA-permitting] or as far apart as they like. Who did or did not design the seats is an irrelevant detail. Airlines can and do replace cabin seating or rearrange seating all the time. They can even disable the recline mechanism.



Devil's Advocate said:


> I figured a simple explanation of the problem and an appeal for civility would be enough to resolve it. Nonetheless you've made it quite clear that all the explaining in the world wont deter some people.


That's not true at all. No one has ever asked me to keep my seat upright. If someone were to politely ask me, I would certainly take their concerns to heart. There is a big difference between "I need to work on my laptop" and "I will be physically harmed if you recline your seat." If you ever find yourself behind me, feel free to ask. But the onus should not be on the person reclining since they are using their seat in the way it was designed to be used. The imposition is on the part of the person who wishes another passenger to forgo the amenity.



Devil's Advocate said:


> Youre free to continue defending your point of view and Im free to continue defending my knees from people like you.


The chief difference being that your "defense" potentially violates airline policy [the major US carrier prohibit the use of the "Knee Defender", as you know]. If, by "defending" you mean that you will politely ask the person in front of you to keep his or her seat upright, I'm totally cool with that. I'm sure you are aware that there are airlines that have disabled the seat recline function on their aircraft and I would encourage you to choose those carriers or to purchase space in premium cabins where this won't be an issue.


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## CHamilton

Boeing does create interiors for its planes, which may be toured in showrooms for clients. I was able to tour the 787 showroom a few years ago, and what I saw was a lot nicer than anything currently being used by the commercial airlines. I assume Airbus does the same.


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## railiner

If I am not mistaken, the recliner mechanism may be more than just locked out....it can be adjusted, thereby increasing, or reducing the degree of recline allowed.

So if say originally the seats had a 34" pitch, and the backs would recline about 20 degrees, and the airline decided to tighten up the pitch to 31"; they could reduce the decline range to only about 10 degrees. Not much, but enough to make passenger's feel like they were still getting some recline ability, and at the same time, protecting the space of the person behind. I am only citing those figures as an example, just for this illustration. I don't know what is actually used, or what would be ideal....


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## Swadian Hardcore

Not directly related to planes, but it seems like when Greyhound rebuilt some old buses, they increased the recline in the seats because they had increased the seat pitch by taking out a row. Or maybe that type of seat originally had 55 degrees of recline which sounds almost ridiculous but that's right.

I've seen 747-8I promo vids that showed sleeping berths like on Amtrak, but try finding that in the real 747-8I.

Actually, maybe airlines should consider sleeping berths.


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## Anderson

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Not directly related to planes, but it seems like when Greyhound rebuilt some old buses, they increased the recline in the seats because they had increased the seat pitch by taking out a row. Or maybe that type of seat originally had 55 degrees of recline which sounds almost ridiculous but that's right.
> 
> I've seen 747-8I promo vids that showed sleeping berths like on Amtrak, but try finding that in the real 747-8I.
> 
> Actually, maybe airlines should consider sleeping berths.


There are a few airlines that have experimented with private bedrooms onboard. The main issue is that there are very few flights that are long enough to justify planes being overhauled to that extent, to say nothing of the reduced passenger loads you'd probably run into in such a layout.


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## jis

The weight penalty of full sleeping berths is prohibitive. Unlike on trains and buses, weight is a huge factor on planes. For this reason you will never see a Viewliner module used on any plane 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Ryan

This American Life did a piece on the Knee Defender about 2 year ago that's worth a listen:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/477/transcript


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## CHamilton

In related news. Seattle Times humor columnist isn't laughing about "the comforts of flying," with the exception of a _*small*_ bit of snark at the end.



> Solutions? We’re open to them. In keeping with the subject matter at hand, write your comprehensive ideas on a Post-it Note and send them our way.


What doesn’t fly these days? Puffery about comforts of flying


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## Devil's Advocate

fairviewroad said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> The airlines did not design the seats. The seat designers did not determine the pitch. The combination of those two variables is whats creating this problem. What part of that is still confusing you?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am genuinely confused by your logic here. You speak as though the airline has no control over the content of its aircraft. Airlines can configure their cabins however they like. They can space the seats as close [FAA-permitting] or as far apart as they like. Who did or did not design the seats is an irrelevant detail. Airlines can and do replace cabin seating or rearrange seating all the time. They can even disable the recline mechanism.
Click to expand...

My point was that your endless complaining about the seat being designed to allow you to recline is rather irrelevant if the pitch provided by the airline fails to provide sufficient clearance.



fairviewroad said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I figured a simple explanation of the problem and an appeal for civility would be enough to resolve it. Nonetheless you've made it quite clear that all the explaining in the world wont deter some people.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone were to politely ask me, I would certainly take their concerns to heart.
Click to expand...

That’s not how you come across at all.



fairviewroad said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Youre free to continue defending your point of view and Im free to continue defending my knees from people like you.
> 
> 
> 
> The chief difference being that your "defense" potentially violates airline policy [the major US carrier prohibit the use of the "Knee Defender", as you know]. If, by "defending" you mean that you will politely ask the person in front of you to keep his or her seat upright, I'm totally cool with that. I'm sure you are aware that there are airlines that have disabled the seat recline function on their aircraft and I would encourage you to choose those carriers or to purchase space in premium cabins where this won't be an issue.
Click to expand...

I'd suggest you fly the same carriers or pay for a cabin where your need to recline won't impact anyone behind you. My guess is that the more you force the issue the quicker they'll remove the ability to recline, which is perfectly fine with me.


----------



## railiner

Anderson said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not directly related to planes, but it seems like when Greyhound rebuilt some old buses, they increased the recline in the seats because they had increased the seat pitch by taking out a row. Or maybe that type of seat originally had 55 degrees of recline which sounds almost ridiculous but that's right.
> 
> I've seen 747-8I promo vids that showed sleeping berths like on Amtrak, but try finding that in the real 747-8I.
> 
> Actually, maybe airlines should consider sleeping berths.
> 
> 
> 
> There are a few airlines that have experimented with private bedrooms onboard. The main issue is that there are very few flights that are long enough to justify planes being overhauled to that extent, to say nothing of the reduced passenger loads you'd probably run into in such a layout.
Click to expand...




jis said:


> The weight penalty of full sleeping berths is prohibitive. Unlike on trains and buses, weight is a huge factor on planes. For this reason you will never see a Viewliner module used on any plane
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Another reason that precluded a "Viewliner module" is the safety factor, as in emergency evacuation. Just imagine having to wake up passenger's locked inside their private cabins in such a case.....The extra time it would take could be critical....


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## CHamilton

And now, armrests...

An end to the battle for the armrest?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/travel/armrest-divider-soarigami/


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## jis

CHamilton said:


> And now, armrests...
> 
> An end to the battle for the armrest?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/travel/armrest-divider-soarigami/


Amtrak has already solved that problem on Amfleets by not having any arm rests to start with. So nothing to fight over, eh?  
In Acelas you can fight over whether you want the armrest in the up position or down position too  Usually not a problem in concluding those quickly by setting up the armrest in down position to start with. Helps preserve and protect your seat space should a rather dimensionally challenged person happen to occupy the adjacent seat.


----------

