# Amtrak Detroiter



## bms (Nov 8, 2020)

With President Biden elected, it is worth considering new Amtrak routes. This train is a cross-platform transfer in Pittsburgh from the Pennsylvanian, which continues along the Capitol Limited route to Toledo. At Toledo it turns north and heads to Detroit.

8:30 p.m. - mile 0 - Pittsburgh
10:01 p.m. - mile 84 - Alliance
11:24 p.m. - mile 140 - arrive Cleveland
11:30 p.m. - mile 140 - depart Cleveland
Midnight - mile 165 - Elyria
12:33 a.m. - mile 188 - Sandusky
1:39 a.m. - mile 235 - Toledo
3:00 a.m. - mile 294 - Detroit

Although the Detroiter arrives in its namesake city at an ungodly hour, this train would give people a way to get to Detroit from the East Coast without spending the night in Chicago. This train also provides superior connections between all its intermediate city pairs, and between the East Coast and all its stops. In this region, we are used to trains arriving at ridiculous hours of the night anyway.

Of course this service should be accompanied by something similar going back East, but I haven't thought that far along yet.

I think the plan would be that this train would wait for the Pennsylvanian if it arrives late. If the Pennsylvanian were to arrive extremely late, the connecting passengers might have to take an AmBus to Cleveland and Detroit.


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## jiml (Nov 8, 2020)

You'd be running the same route just ahead of the Capitol. Is there a market for that? Wouldn't a simple Toledo-Detroit train connecting with the Capitol or LSL serve your purpose, with better timings to connect to Michigan services and less equipment required?


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## me_little_me (Nov 8, 2020)

Why does it have to be an overnight train? Leave at 8:30AM and arrive at 3PM. Everybody gets daytime!


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 8, 2020)

Why not do my method of a New York Detroit train. Run on the Water Level route via Buffalo and Albany. Make it a night train for the Empire Corridor. Split the train in Cleveland with the Ohio State Limited going to Cincinnati and the Detroit train going to Detroit via Toledo. Then you have decent times on all ends.


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## Palmetto (Nov 8, 2020)

That would work, but under the current scenario, you'd need the states to finance it. Good luck with that.


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 8, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> That would work, but under the current scenario, you'd need the states to finance it. Good luck with that.



No way will Ohio's current General Assembly--nor the one during the next two years--provide funds.


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 8, 2020)

bms said:


> we are used to trains arriving at ridiculous hours of the night anyway.



"Used to"? I wouldn't say that. As someone well known has said this year: "It is what it is". One either accepts the current situation or you choose another form of transportation and not Amtrak. 

I have no data to support my thinking, but if the Cardinal's times in Cincinnati were at more civilized hours, its ridership from and to the Queen City would increase.


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## MARC Rider (Nov 8, 2020)

I like the 8:30 AM to 3 PM day train concept. The train would be designed to service Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Toldeo and Detroit. All during daylight hours, and there could be a connection to Wolverine Service that would take passengers to Dearborn, Ann Arbor, and maybe Jackson.

A Pittsburgh to Chicago Day train might be a nice idea, too. 
All of these trains would share overhead costs with the Capitol Limited and Lakeshore Limited, thus improving the financial bottom lines of those trains as well.


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 8, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> That would work, but under the current scenario, you'd need the states to finance it. Good luck with that.



Now if you went with my New York Nightmare you could technically get away with it. 

Train No. 448/449 technically only run 200 miles to Albany from Boston before joining Train No. 48/49 at Albany for the next 818 miles. 

With the New York Nightmare which honestly would need a better marketing name. 

The Ohio State Limited section (Cincinnati) is 878 Miles. 

The Detroiter (Detroit) would be somewhere around 780 Miles. 

Now I don't know if it would count or not but adding the Montreal Limited (Montreal), and Lake Ontario (Toronto) without state support. Technically if it departs NYS combined with the rest of the nightmare its still part of a train that goes over 750 miles even though the individual sections don't approach it. 

In reality that is taking a play from the New York Central or Pennsylvania Railroad playbooks. If you look at their timetables you find so many trains carrying sleepers for parts of routes, and those cars switching trains at points like Buffalo, Albany, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Columbus, Indianapolis, etc. Honestly tracking all of the thru cars would be a lengthy research project and would be a fun one to do. I might have to attempt this at some point.


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 9, 2020)

Right up 'till Covid you could depart NYP on the Maple Leaf at 6:40am connect in Aldershot, Ontario and be in Windsor at 11:45pm. And if you don't think Detroit or N. Ohio/SE Mich residents use Windsor....just stroll through the station parking lot there!

Eastbound the the trains missed the connection at Aldershot by a half-hour so a little tweaking would restore it....... and it has been available at various times.

And if you go back to the '70s...Amtrak went all the way from NYP to Detroit: The _Empire State Express_....... 676 miles across Southern Ontario: Dep NYP at 8:30am and into Detroit at 10pm. Sadly most of that old NYC/Penn Central route is now gone.





__





The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)






www.timetables.org


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## jiml (Nov 9, 2020)

AKA, the original Niagara Rainbow:








Niagara Rainbow - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





More details:




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Amtrak - Windsor, ON






www.trainweb.org


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## railiner (Nov 9, 2020)

Indeed, there was a period in the early years of Amtrak, where if you were in Upstate New York, and you didn’t want to have to backtrack all the way to New York City, to go West, you could utilize the TH&B train from Buffalo to connect via Canada to get to Windsor, and then Detroit to Chicago on Amtrak...

This was when there was no Lakeshore train...


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## neroden (Nov 11, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> Why not do my method of a New York Detroit train. Run on the Water Level route via Buffalo and Albany. Make it a night train for the Empire Corridor. Split the train in Cleveland with the Ohio State Limited going to Cincinnati and the Detroit train going to Detroit via Toledo. Then you have decent times on all ends.



I had a similar but simpler proposal which I simply called TWO A DAY. The "Heartland Connector" (or whatever) would depart New York City very late in the evening (11:40 PM), reach Syracuse at 5:40AM, Toledo at 2:15 PM, and Chicago by early evening. Westbound, it would leave Chicago around 10 AM, arrive Syracuse near midnight, and arrive NYC around 7 AM.

I would reroute both this Heartland Connector train and the Lake Shore Limited via Detroit between Toledo and Chicago, if possible; this would require Toledo-Detroit track acquisition and upgrade, of course. The Capitol Limited could continue to serve that small town near Ft. Wayne, Elkhart, and South Bend. The unfortunate decision to keep the South Shore station in Michigan City separate from the Amtrak station prevents the most logical plan for serving South Bend.


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## Mailliw (Nov 18, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Why does it have to be an overnight train? Leave at 8:30AM and arrive at 3PM. Everybody gets daytime!


Agreed. Personally I'd rather put up with an overnight layover than a 3am arrival, but a day schedule would be even better.


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## bms (Nov 27, 2020)

My original idea for a train connecting to the Pennsylvanian was to connect the New York and Detroit markets, since I think there's a considerable unmet demand there. After reading & considering the responses, I think a day train might work just fine. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Detroit have enough people that there would be high demand for service without considering passengers from the East Coast.

9:30 a.m. - mile 0 - Pittsburgh
11:00 a.m. - mile 84 - Alliance
12:25 p.m. - mile 140 - arrive Cleveland
12:30 p.m. - mile 140 - depart Cleveland
1:00 p.m. - mile 165 - Elyria
1:30 p.m. - mile 188 - Sandusky
2:40 p.m. - mile 235 - Toledo
4:00 p.m. - mile 294 - Detroit

9:00 a.m. - mile 0 - Detroit
10:20 a.m. - mile 59 - Toledo
11:30 a.m. - mile 106 - Sandusky
Noon - mile 129 - Elyria
12:30 p.m. - mile 154 - arrive Cleveland
12:35 p.m. - mile 154 - depart Cleveland
2:00 p.m. - mile 210 - Alliance
3:30 p.m. - mile 294 - Pittsburgh

Having taken Greyhound numerous times between Detroit and either Pittsburgh or Cleveland, I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't prefer Amtrak service.


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## west point (Nov 27, 2020)

Toledo is a major servicing location for the LSL and Capitol ( 4 trains ). Your schedule would require another set of servicing personnel to maintain that needed ability. Not going to be easy a cost since Detroit does not qualify for that designation..


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## toddinde (Nov 28, 2020)

bms said:


> With President Biden elected, it is worth considering new Amtrak routes. This train is a cross-platform transfer in Pittsburgh from the Pennsylvanian, which continues along the Capitol Limited route to Toledo. At Toledo it turns north and heads to Detroit.
> 
> 8:30 p.m. - mile 0 - Pittsburgh
> 10:01 p.m. - mile 84 - Alliance
> ...


Arriving in Detroit at 3:00 am isn’t feasible. The Wolverine has an ungodly late arrival too, and it’s not fun getting into Detroit at odd hours.


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 28, 2020)

toddinde said:


> it’s not fun getting into Detroit at odd hours.



Or anywhere, for that matter. I didn't care for the early morning arrival (early for me) in Los Angeles that the Sunset Limited was scheduled to do. My "good luck" (?), the train arrived a several minutes for that arrival time! A quick dressing with no shower, shaving, or bathing. Other than the shower, the others took place in the Metropolitan Lounge in the station. (Thankfully, that was a nice and clean bathroom.)


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## bms (Nov 29, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> Or anywhere, for that matter. I didn't care for the early morning arrival (early for me) in Los Angeles that the Sunset Limited was scheduled to do. My "good luck" (?), the train arrived a several minutes for that arrival time! A quick dressing with no shower, shaving, or bathing. Other than the shower, the others took place in the Metropolitan Lounge in the station. (Thankfully, that was a nice and clean bathroom.)



Yes, it's a rough arrival in Cleveland at early AM hours as well. There might be one professional taxi driver picking up, but good luck even getting a driver who can find the station if you use Uber or Lyft. I really hope we can get some decent service during the Biden Administration.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 29, 2020)

toddinde said:


> Arriving in Detroit at 3:00 am isn’t feasible. The Wolverine has an ungodly late arrival too, and it’s not fun getting into Detroit at odd hours.


Detroit is the only Amtrak Station where I've been advised by the Agent, and the Security Guard @ the Locked Door, to not Leave the Station while waiting on your Train.


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## jiml (Nov 30, 2020)

After the International (direct train from Toronto through Michigan) was suspended, we used to regularly catch Amtrak from the Detroit area. However Pontiac and Ann Arbor were our stations of choice, so I've only seen the actual Detroit station from a train.


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## toddinde (Dec 3, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Detroit is the only Amtrak Station where I've been advised by the Agent, and the Security Guard @ the Locked Door, to not Leave the Station while waiting on your Train.


It’s a calculated risk, ha ha


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## bms (Dec 8, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Detroit is the only Amtrak Station where I've been advised by the Agent, and the Security Guard @ the Locked Door, to not Leave the Station while waiting on your Train.



Ford bought the iconic Michigan Central Station, is apparently still renovating the station, and expects to complete the project late in 2022. What I can't seem to find out is what their ultimate plans are. Moving Amtrak service to Michigan Central Station would be a major improvement, but a lot of times these old stations end up as hotels or office buildings.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 8, 2020)

bms said:


> Ford bought the iconic Michigan Central Station, is apparently still renovating the station, and expects to complete the project late in 2022. What I can't seem to find out is what their ultimate plans are. Moving Amtrak service to Michigan Central Station would be a major improvement, but a lot of times these old stations end up as hotels or office buildings.


My understanding is that there are no plans to move Amtrak back to the Renovated Station in Corktown which will be used by Ford for various purposes.


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## Eric S (Dec 9, 2020)

IIRC Michigan DOT still has some (perhaps vague) plans of upgrading/replacing the existing Amtrak station with a larger multimodal facility in the same basic location serving intercity trains and buses, local streetcar and buses, as well as potentially regional rail (if, for instance, Detroit - Ann Arbor service ever gets going).


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## toddinde (Dec 9, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> My understanding is that there are no plans to move Amtrak back to the Renovated Station in Corktown which will be used by Ford for various purposes.


There is talk about it, and Ford is open to the idea. There’s plenty of room, and through service to Canada is a given in the future, and will have to pass right through there. I believe it’s a matter of when, not if.


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## IndyLions (Dec 10, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> My understanding is that there are no plans to move Amtrak back to the Renovated Station in Corktown which will be used by Ford for various purposes.



True - but they ARE intentionally leaving several tracks in place, to leave open the possibility of passenger service returning in the future to that location.


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## bms (Dec 13, 2020)

I'm optimistic about this project and would love to have more service in the Detroit area. It was just so glorious to see the vaccine roll out of a Michigan facility. I cried tears of joy when I saw that happen.


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## bms (Dec 13, 2020)

Eric S said:


> IIRC Michigan DOT still has some (perhaps vague) plans of upgrading/replacing the existing Amtrak station with a larger multimodal facility in the same basic location serving intercity trains and buses, local streetcar and buses, as well as potentially regional rail (if, for instance, Detroit - Ann Arbor service ever gets going).



There was supposed to be an Ann Arbor to Detroit bus that would leave every hour. They ran into terrible timing as they planned to start that bus at the same time as Covid hit. Hopefully it does still start eventually.


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## Eric S (Dec 14, 2020)

bms said:


> There was supposed to be an Ann Arbor to Detroit bus that would leave every hour. They ran into terrible timing as they planned to start that bus at the same time as Covid hit. Hopefully it does still start eventually.


D2A2 bus service, I believe. I think it may have briefly started operating before shutting down. Terrible timing, I agree. And yes, hopefully service starts up (or resumes) in 2021-2022.


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## leccy (Dec 14, 2020)

There was supposed to be a curve built between the AA railroad and the AMTRAK line at Ann Arbor for a Grand Rapids - Detroit service. Anyone know the status of that?


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