# 1976 AMTRAK Map



## GoldenSpike (May 20, 2009)




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## ns4eva (May 20, 2009)

If only they still ran through Bluefield, WV as it shows they did, then I'd only have an hours drive to a station instead of 4. 

Anyone know what the train name was for the route that went through Roanoke, VA and Bluefield, WV/VA or any other info?


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## MrFSS (May 20, 2009)

ns4eva said:


> If only they still ran through Bluefield, WV as it shows they did, then I'd only have an hours drive to a station instead of 4.
> Anyone know what the train name was for the route that went through Roanoke, VA and Bluefield, WV/VA or any other info?


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## VentureForth (May 20, 2009)

While there are a lot of sad bygones (ie: Laredo to Newton, Denver to Ogden through Cheyenne, and of course Chicago to Jaxsonville via Birmingham), I see some marked improvements, too, like ... umm ... ok - never mind. Just one. The Carolinian connecting Salisbury to Rocky Mount through Raliegh is good stuff.

Interesting map. Thanks!


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## Hanno (May 20, 2009)

I was really surprised to see how different it is today as compared to 1977!


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## frj1983 (May 20, 2009)

I think a more direct Chicago-Florida train like the one on the map would be excellent. I know there's a problem with the current trackage and that thought might indeed be a pipe-dream, but it would be neat if we could get Louisville and Nashville back on the map somehow!


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## ns4eva (May 20, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> ns4eva said:
> 
> 
> > If only they still ran through Bluefield, WV as it shows they did, then I'd only have an hours drive to a station instead of 4.
> ...



HOLY COW! Thanks! I take that back about Bluefield, WV, only 40 minutes to Welch, WV. A darn shame it's gone.  Maybe again one day in the distant future.


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## printman2000 (May 20, 2009)

Notice the Crescent is still being run by Southern. It is a non-Amtrak route.


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## wayman (May 20, 2009)

printman2000 said:


> Notice the Crescent is still being run by Southern. It is a non-Amtrak route.


And note that this means in 1976 Lynchburg still had two separate train stations! The Hilltopper stopped at 5100 Woodall Rd, which is four miles away from the Southern Rwy's Kemper St Station (where the Crescent stopped then and still stops today).

Link to a Google Map. Also note that the former N&W station was on the "double-wye"!

Rafi: Knowing Amtrak had a "Hilltopper" running (NEC)-LYH-ROA once upon a time, this is now my favorite name for the new LYH (and eventually ROA) extended Regional. Sure, it's on different trackage (WAS-LYH instead of WAS-RVM?-LYH; and ROA-BST? instead of ROA-XBG?) but ... great name. The right name. Also... when they extend to Roanoke, I hope they add a Bedford stop. The station's still there, I believe, as a restaurant. Adding adjacent minimal station facilities nearby wouldn't be hard.


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## saxman (May 20, 2009)

Those were some odd call times for the endpoints. And odd endpoints too. Can't imagine there being lots of ridership. Did it by chance connect with the Cardinal at Tri-State station?


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## wayman (May 20, 2009)

saxman66 said:


> Those were some odd call times for the endpoints. And odd endpoints too. Can't imagine there being lots of ridership. Did it by chance connect with the Cardinal at Tri-State station?


Well, note the numbers: this was 66/67, so overnight on the NEC just like today, but back then it kept going. Perfectly reasonable times all the way to Williamson WV, the next-to-last stop on the line--a very nice local day-train through western VA and WV!

Comparing yesteryear's Hilltopper to today's Cardinal...

Westbound Hilltopper (1976) at Catlettsburg, 12:45 AM

Westbound Cardinal (2009) at Ashland, 9:58 PM

... so no connection "today", but note the Cardinal's stop in Ashland was 11:53 PM in the April 2005 timetable, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were another 90-120 minutes later in 1976 to accommodate this connection, giving folks from Richmond, Lynchburg, Roanoke, etc, a more direct route to Chicago.

Eastbound Cardinal (2009) at Ashland, 6:29 AM

Eastbound Hilltopper (1976) at Catlettsburg, 5:33 AM

... so also no connection "today", ... and the Cardinal's stop in Ashland was 8:04 AM in the April 2005 timetable, which is a shift in the wrong direction. Huh. Still, there are thirty years of schedule changes for the Cardinal between 1976 and 2005.

So my bet is that the 1976 Cardinal made this connection. Can we see a schedule for it? I just can't see why they'd bother going to Catlettsburg (essentially Ashland) without trying to make that connection work.


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## DAWall (May 20, 2009)

frj1983 said:


> I think a more direct Chicago-Florida train like the one on the map would be excellent. I know there's a problem with the current trackage and that thought might indeed be a pipe-dream, but it would be neat if we could get Louisville and Nashville back on the map somehow!


I would enjoy seeing a Chicago-Florida train again too...maybe routed via Cincinnti because of better track conditions. Or how about a Midwest Auto train, out of lets say Beech Grove in Indianapolis. They have plenty of spare land around the area that could be developed, its close to the Interstate...It's central to many midwest cites...and what better place to maintain the train, with you main Superliner shop right next door.


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## wayman (May 20, 2009)

There were no Pioneer or Desert Wind in 1976! That was a surprise to me.

I have now learned that the Pioneer started in June 1977, and the Desert Wind in October 1979, per Wikipedia--both new LD services started by Amtrak. Of course, these routes saw service up until A-Day: The Pioneer's route was covered by two daily UP trains per day until 1971, then nothing until 1977; and the Desert Wind's route was covered by the UP/C&NW City of Los Angeles until 1971, then nothing until 1979.

How many other LD trains were killed on (or before) A-Day and after a service gap were more-or-less re-instated by Amtrak?


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## MrFSS (May 20, 2009)

October 1978 Table showing _*Cardinal*_ and *Hilltopper*.


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## transit54 (May 20, 2009)

If only the Montrealer were still around...I'd probably fly 1/4 or less of the flights that I do now.


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## jphjaxfl (May 20, 2009)

ns4eva said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > ns4eva said:
> ...


 The Hilltopper replaced the Mountaineer which Amtrak started in 1974. The Mountaineer provided through service from Chicago to Norfolk (Lambert's Point), VA. N&W had run the Pocahantas on a similar schedule from Cincinnati to Norfolk until April 30, 1971 when Amtrak started. The cities along the N&W line were clamoring for a return of service, but didn't support the train very well.


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## NativeSon5859 (May 20, 2009)

Is that the National Limited I see there? That route served some nice sized markets. I heard the on time performance was very poor which attributed to low ridership.


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## MrFSS (May 20, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> The Hilltopper replaced the Mountaineer which Amtrak started in 1974. The Mountaineer provided through service from Chicago to Norfolk (Lambert's Point), VA. N&W had run the Pocahantas on a similar schedule from Cincinnati to Norfolk until April 30, 1971 when Amtrak started. The cities along the N&W line were clamoring for a return of service, but didn't support the train very well.


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## DAWall (May 20, 2009)

NativeSon5859 said:


> Is that the National Limited I see there? That route served some nice sized markets. I heard the on time performance was very poor which attributed to low ridership.


I rode the National limited a couple of time in the 70's, once behind E-8's and steam heated equipment, and later after it went F-40 HEP and Amfleet. Both times I rode the train was very full. But by then the old Pennsy Panhandle division was suffering from Penn Central maintenance...or lack there of, and most of what once was 80 MPH track was down to 60 or worse. With lots of slow orders. Now much of the route from Indianapolis to Columbus Ohio is gone completely. If the train was somehow ever brought back it would need a new route. Maybe Indy to Cleveland on the ex NYC "B-line" and then over to Pittsburgh.


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## VentureForth (May 20, 2009)

Tri-State station looks like a WAY cool place to train watch. I would LOVE to take the Hilltopper or The Mountaineer! I guess I'll have to settle for the Cardinal. 

A photo of the Hilltopper. Wow - one BC/Cafe car and a coach? That's it? That's a lot of power, then again, maybe it wasn't...

As for the schedule, the Hilltopper made pretty good sense - at least to Tri-State, but should have gone on through Cincinatti and on to Chicago. The Mountaineer had a LOUSY route, taking nearly 25 hours and covering 1000 miles to hit only two major population centers (that are only 280 miles apart) connecting to two minor population centers on the other end (Roanoke and Norfolk - Norfolk? HUH???)

I really like the current Cardinal route. Takes the best of all the seemingly dumb ideas and make a good route of it.


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## jphjaxfl (May 20, 2009)

DAWall said:


> NativeSon5859 said:
> 
> 
> > Is that the National Limited I see there? That route served some nice sized markets. I heard the on time performance was very poor which attributed to low ridership.
> ...


 The Floridian too suffered from Penn Central lack of track maintenance between Chicago and Louisville. The trip often took 12 hours or more to travel just over 300 miles. In 1975, they permanantly shifted it to the former Monon line from Chicago to Louisville after some temporary reroutes over the C&EI/L&N between Chicago and Nashville. Most of the through Chicago - Florida passengers were long gone after horrible delays of the first 4 years of Amtrak. The right of ways would need to be updated from Chicago to Jacksonville so travel time would be similar to the City of Miami/SouthWind of the early 1950s to attract any through passengers from Chicago to Florida. You would also have to convince CSX or NS that the upgrades and running a passenger train would be a positive move for them.


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## MrFSS (May 20, 2009)

Here is the first Amtrak table from 1971.


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## the_traveler (May 20, 2009)

Looking at the 2 maps, it looks like the CS bypassed SAC on both! Is this correct? :huh: And if so, what route did it take?


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## GoldenSpike (May 20, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> While there are a lot of sad bygones (ie: Laredo to Newton, Denver to Ogden through Cheyenne, and of course Chicago to Jaxsonville via Birmingham), I see some marked improvements, too, like ... umm ... ok - never mind. Just one. The Carolinian connecting Salisbury to Rocky Mount through Raliegh is good stuff.
> Interesting map. Thanks!


Having traveled the EB many times going to MSP or CHI, the route I enjoyed in '76 is the one the NP used to take: SEA-YAK, on to Pasco, Missoula, etc.

Applying it to the present, I don't get the logic of bypassing all the population centers in MT. Instead they use the northern route busing pax south to select cities. Shouldn't it be the other way around?


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## GoldenSpike (May 20, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> ns4eva said:
> 
> 
> > MrFSS said:
> ...


*Pocahantas*? Did you mean *Powhatan Arrow*? which was pre-AMTRAK?


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## GoldenSpike (May 20, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Looking at the 2 maps, it looks like the CS bypassed SAC on both! Is this correct? :huh: And if so, what route did it take?


AMTRAK likely took the routing of the SP's Shasta Daylight that ran PDX-OAK.

From Redding it went via *Gerber*. The train then went to Davis (pax to SAC bussed)-Maritinez-Oakland.


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## MrFSS (May 20, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Looking at the 2 maps, it looks like the CS bypassed SAC on both! Is this correct? :huh: And if so, what route did it take?


Here is the 1971 table.


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## jphjaxfl (May 20, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Looking at the 2 maps, it looks like the CS bypassed SAC on both! Is this correct? :huh: And if so, what route did it take?


 The Coast Starlight turned north at Davis, CA bypassing Sacramento. I rode the CS southbound in 1972. At the time they had a bus connection to Sacramento which was a holdover from SP. The next time I rode the CS north of Oakland was 1995 and by then it went to Sacramento and then north.


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## AAARGH! (May 20, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> Here is the first Amtrak table from 1971.


Now is just like the gool 'ol days. No Amtrak service between New Orleans and Florida (Sunset Limited). :angry:

I'm surprised there was no service to Cleveland. Was there still service from another carrier?


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## MrFSS (May 20, 2009)

AAARGH said:


> I'm surprised there was no service to Cleveland. Was there still service from another carrier?


Not in 1971 there wasn't.


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## NativeSon5859 (May 20, 2009)

AAARGH said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the first Amtrak table from 1971.
> ...


Nope, the Gulf Wind which ran NOL-JAX thrice weekly was not operated by Amtrak.

NOL-JAX went without passenger rail service until 1993.


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## frj1983 (May 20, 2009)

wayman said:


> There were no Pioneer or Desert Wind in 1976! That was a surprise to me.
> I have now learned that the Pioneer started in June 1977, and the Desert Wind in October 1979, per Wikipedia--both new LD services started by Amtrak. Of course, these routes saw service up until A-Day: The Pioneer's route was covered by two daily UP trains per day until 1971, then nothing until 1977; and the Desert Wind's route was covered by the UP/C&NW City of Los Angeles until 1971, then nothing until 1979.
> 
> How many other LD trains were killed on (or before) A-Day and after a service gap were more-or-less re-instated by Amtrak?


I'm at work and away from my books, Wayman,

But I strongly believe that the Capital Limited was also in your group. If memory serves correctly there was a 10 year gap 1971-1981!


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## wayman (May 20, 2009)

I don't see it explicitly stated, but since the times are exactly the same for the James Whitcomb Riley and the Mountaineer between Chicago and "Tri-State"/Ashland, it looks like these ran as a single train from Ashland west, joining/splitting there?

I'm piecing together the following from Wikipedia and other sources, and some of the information is hazy or contradictory... please confirm or correct the below if you know better:

pre-A-Day:

1923: B&O inaugurates the Capitol Limited, NYP-BAL-WAS-Cumberland-PGH-CHI

1925: B&O inaugurates the National Limited, NYP-BAL-WAS-Cumberland-CIN-STL

1926: PRR stops allowing B&O to use NYP, and B&O relocates their northern terminus to Jersey City

1932: C&O inaugurates the George Washington, WAS-Charlottesville-Clifton Forge-Ashland-CIN; a second section operates NPN-Richmond-CVS, joining the main section there -- the main section is basically half of today's Cardinal

1941: NYC inaugurates the James Whitcomb Riley, CIN-IND-CHI -- this is basically the other half of today's Cardinal

1946: N&W inaugurates the Powhatan Arrow and Pocohontas, Norfolk-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bluefield-Kenova(Ashland)-CIN -- this was basically the Mountaineer, and also the basis for the Hilltopper

1958: B&O abandons service north of BAL; CL and NL now run BAL-CHI and BAL-STL respectively

1965: C&O takes control of B&O, and attaches the NL to the GW from WAS to CIN, effectively extending the GW to STL

1966: C&O/B&O abandons BAL; CL now originates in WAS, as does the GW/NL combined train

1969: N&W discontinues the by-now decrepit Powhatan Arrow but upgrades the Pocahontas.

The Capitol Limited (now WAS-Cumberland-PGH-CHI), George Washington (now WAS-CVS-CLF-Ashland-CIN-STL, with NPN section), James Whitcomb Riley (CIN-IND-CHI), and Pocahontas (Norfolk-LYH-ROA-Bluefield-Ashland-CIN) continue to A-Day.

A-Day:

Amtrak drops the Capitol Limited entirely.

Amtrak drops the Pocahontas entirely.

Amtrak drops the CIN-STL service formerly provided by the GW/NL.

Amtrak briefly continues to operate both the GW and JWR as separate trains; then in November merged the two into a single train and extended it all the way up the NEC to BOS, running a BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-CVS-CLF-AKY-CIN-IND-CHI route, confusingly named GW eastbound and JWR westbound.

post-A-Day:

1972: Amtrak cuts the GW/JWR back to WAS.

1974: Amtrak drops the GW name, and uses JWR for both eastbound and westbound.

197x: Amtrak extends the JWR to NYP, essentially today's Cardinal's route. But there were various route changes in the midwest through the 1970s.

1975: Amtrak creates the Mountaineer, Norfolk-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bluefield-Ashland, joining the JWR at Ashland and continuing to CHI -- more or less re-creating the Pocahontas. (so, from 1975-76, there were basically three sections to the JWR? the main section, the NPN section joining at CVS, and the Mountaineer section joining at Ashland???)

1976: Amtrak drops the NPN-Richmond-CVS section of the JWR. Amtrak replaces this with the Colonial, NPN-Richmond-WAS-NYP.

1977: Amtrak drops the Mountaineer, but creates the Hilltopper to more-or-less cover the same route (this time from the NEC instead of from Norfolk): BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-Richmond-LYH-ROA-Bluefield-Ashland, with a six-hour connection to the JWR/Cardinal at Ashland. (did the cars join? or did passengers have to change trains? I haven't found that out)

1979: Amtrak drops the Hilltopper. For about eight months, Lynchburg had two "Amtrak" trains (as the Crescent became Amtrak in February and the Hilltopper was dropped in September). The Hilltopper had been trains 66/67, running overnight from BOS-WAS, so my guess is they actually just trunctated it at WAS and re-named it the Night Owl, then in 1997 re-named again to the Twilight Shoreliner. But I don't know.

1981: Amtrak re-creates the Capitol Limited, following the original B&O route from WAS-PGH but not from PGH-CHI.

1992: Amtrak re-names the Colonial the Old Dominion.

1997: Amtrak creates another Colonial running the same route.

later: Amtrak drops all Regional train names.

2009: Amtrak extends a Regional through CVS to LYH (with plans to continue to ROA). There's really no perfect historical analog to a BOS-NYP-PHL-WAS-CVS-LYH-ROA train... but Hilltopper might be the closest.

Sources included... American Rails (George Washington, National Limited), a book abstract on the Capitol Limited and National Limited, _Streamliners_ (at Google Books, pages 38-47), and various Wikipedia pages (the Cardinal, the Virginia Services, etc).

edit: Oh, I just found a railroad.net thread which also discusses the Shenandoah and gives more info on the Hilltopper, Mountaineer, etc. Maybe I'll try to revise the above. What exciting times the mid-'70s must have been for anyone living along these routes... never knowing when their train might stop this year or what it might be called....


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## Murjax (May 20, 2009)

MrFSS said:


>


I find it interesting how the New Carrollton stop was called Beltway Station back then. Does anyone know when it was renamed?


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## DowneasterPassenger (May 20, 2009)

The Downeaster is an improvement!


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## jis (May 20, 2009)

wayman said:


> A DayAmtrak drops the Capitol Limited entirely.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> 1981: Amtrak re-creates the Capitol Limited, following the original B&O route from WAS-PGH but not from PGH-CHI.


In the interim period Amtrak ran a section of the Broadway Limited from Washington DC joining up at Harrisburg. The Washington - Harrisburg train ran variously through Philly 30th St or via Port Road from Perryville to Harrisburg.

When Capitol Ltd was restored as mentioned it did not follow B&O from PGH to CHI. Ironically, it is the Broadway Limited that was routed on B&O between PGH and CHI when the PRR Fort Wayne line was downgraded by Conrail.


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 20, 2009)

wayman said:


> I don't see it explicitly stated, but since the times are exactly the same for the James Whitcomb Riley and the Mountaineer between Chicago and "Tri-State"/Ashland, it looks like these ran as a single train from Ashland west, joining/splitting there?
> I'm piecing together the following from Wikipedia and other sources, and some of the information is hazy or contradictory... please confirm or correct the below if you know better:
> 
> pre-A-Day:
> ...


Thanks for the neat memories. Especially of the Pocahontas and the Powhatan Arrow.

I remember riding the Tennessean one morning from Chattanooga to Knoxville. I was assigned to a streamlined N&W coach. I still remember it. So smooth, so luxurious, I swear it even smelled good!!

But I also remember seeing the Pocahontas from the Birmingham Special one morning after it had been painted blue. I did not like that. Of course I liked the other upgrades to the Pokey, as I understand it was called-- affectionately.

Oh yes, I do have the streamliner book to which you refer. Nice book, very informative.


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## MikefromCrete (May 20, 2009)

wayman said:


> saxman66 said:
> 
> 
> > Those were some odd call times for the endpoints. And odd endpoints too. Can't imagine there being lots of ridership. Did it by chance connect with the Cardinal at Tri-State station?
> ...


The Hilltopper was a prime example of Amtrak's "political trains," which run only because of political pressure from influential congressmen, especially U.S. Rep. Harley Staggers of West Virginia. Amtrak even had to run the Turbotrain (!) on the Hilltopper's winding, slow run through the mountains. It earned the nickname, Harley's Hornet. Definitely not Amtrak's proudest moment.

The Cardinal is another example of West Virginia's powerful political forces. You notice it serves all the towns in West Virginia at good times, while arriving in the middle of night at the much larger markets of Cincinnati and Indianapolis.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 21, 2009)

If the _Cardinal_ is the _Senator Byrd Special_ then the _Hilltopper_ was the _Staggers Limited_. It was a sad little train, often late, with practically no ridership. It ran with as few as one snack coach. Its main rider was Harley Staggers himself.

Some of the Carter cuts were unfortunate, decimating our national network and killing useful trains. Some of the Carter cuts removed a bunch of silly political nonsense, such as the Hilltopper. Most of the east-coast routes killed in 1979 were honestly being put out of Amtrak's misery.


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## Steve4031 (May 21, 2009)

I had a chance to ride the North Coast Hiawatha, but my dad changed plans and we flew home. I was too young to really influence the decision making, but I regret missing that one. Also almost got to ride the Floridian too.


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## DAWall (May 21, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> DAWall said:
> 
> 
> > NativeSon5859 said:
> ...


Does anyone have a National Limited (Amtrak) and Floridian Timetable they could post?


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## MrFSS (May 21, 2009)

DAWall said:


> jphjaxfl said:
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> > DAWall said:
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## Guest (May 21, 2009)

What was the train that ran to Duluth in 1976? I was surprised to see that.


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## MrFSS (May 21, 2009)

Guest said:


> What was the train that ran to Duluth in 1976? I was surprised to see that.


Actually - it ran to Superior. *The Arrowhead*


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## DAWall (May 21, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> DAWall said:
> 
> 
> > jphjaxfl said:
> ...


Thanks MrFSS, I was looking over some maps, just wanted to see how much of the National Limited route still existed. (Answer not much between Pittsburgh and St Louis)


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## dan72 (May 21, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > What was the train that ran to Duluth in 1976? I was surprised to see that.
> ...


Thanks for posting this one (I was actually going to ask if anyone had a timetable for this one.) Interesting how this train changed as well. I rode it in 1982 as _The North Star_ and at that time, it did go all the way to Duluth.


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## MrFSS (May 21, 2009)

dan72 said:


> Thanks for posting this one (I was actually going to ask if anyone had a timetable for this one.) Interesting how this train changed as well. I rode it in 1982 as _The North Star_ and at that time, it did go all the way to Duluth.


That would be this table:


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## dan72 (May 21, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> dan72 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for posting this one (I was actually going to ask if anyone had a timetable for this one.) Interesting how this train changed as well. I rode it in 1982 as _The North Star_ and at that time, it did go all the way to Duluth.
> ...


Thanks for posting that! Interesting how the Arrowhead was non-stop and the North Star had three (counting Duluth). Also, it's interesting to see how much earlier the eastbound EB got into Chicago than it does today.

Thanks again!

Dan


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 21, 2009)

Wow your scanner is getting quite a work out  thanks for posting some of the old schedules.

Its funny to see how that one has the KM and Miles as that was during a time when a switch was being considered.


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## the_traveler (May 21, 2009)

dan72 said:


> Interesting how the Arrowhead was non-stop and the North Star had three (counting Duluth).


Also interesting that the Arrowhead's mileage from MSP to Superior was 144 miles, while the North Star showed 150 miles between them!


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## Anthony (May 21, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Wow your scanner is getting quite a work out  thanks for posting some of the old schedules.



:lol:

if you only knew


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## MrFSS (May 21, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Wow your scanner is getting quite a work out  thanks for posting some of the old schedules.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 21, 2009)

Anthony said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > Wow your scanner is getting quite a work out  thanks for posting some of the old schedules.
> ...


 Could that be a hint to a new part of Amtrak Unlimited?


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## jphjaxfl (May 22, 2009)

GoldenSpike said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> > ns4eva said:
> ...


 The Pocahantas ran through April 30, 1971 from Norfolk to Cincinnati. The Powhatan Arrow had been discontinued about 2 years earlier. I took the Pocahantas from Cincinnati to Roanoke in 1970. The N&W included Dining Car meals for Sleeping Car passengers. I traveled in a bedroom in Buchanon County which was 10/6 had a delicious breakfast of Virginia ham, fried apples, eggs and biscuit. I changed to the N&W Birmingham Special which was an accross platform change in Roanoke and continued on to Washington via the Southern at Lynchburg. The Pocahantas also carried an ex Wabash Bluebird Budd Dome coach which was a great way to view the mountains.


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## PaulM (May 22, 2009)

dan72 said:


>


The last I had business at the MSP station, I commented the agent that MSP must be one of the larger and nicer Amtrak era stations, especially considering it sees only 2 train per day. He said that when it was built just after A day, it served 8 trains per day.

I didn't see a date on the time table; but it showed 6 trains. I am curious what the 7th and 8th might have been.


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## Montanan (May 22, 2009)

The schedule above would have been pretty much the peak of MSP service under Amtrak; unless I'm mistaken there's never been more than two daily east-west trains and one Duluth/Superior train through St. Paul.


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## MrFSS (May 22, 2009)

Montanan said:


> The schedule above would have been pretty much the peak of MSP service under Amtrak; unless I'm mistaken there's never been more than two daily east-west trains and one Duluth/Superior train through St. Paul.


I have to agree with this - and I'm pretty familiar with most of the Amtrak schedules.


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## Montanan (May 22, 2009)

And thinking about it a little bit further, I'm pretty sure the above timetable reflects a schedule back before the current building was built. Amtrak used the former GN station in Minneapolis as its Twin Cities facility until the current station was constructed in 1978. (Note that the words "St. Paul" are totally absent from that timetable page.)


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## jamesontheroad (Aug 9, 2009)

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but looking at the map, what was the train that routed through St. Cloud, MN, and what Minnesota stations did it call at that are no longer served?

Thanks


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## jis (Aug 9, 2009)

I found this fascinating _List of trains that ran on the eve of Amtrak_. Thought y'all might like it.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 9, 2009)

jis said:


> I found this fascinating _List of trains that ran on the eve of Amtrak_. Thought y'all might like it.


Thanks for the post!)"those were the days my friend,I thought theyd never end)I have one question? What about the old New Haven RR?

I used to ride the train from New London to NYC on weekends,had they disappeared by this time???


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## chertling (Aug 9, 2009)

MikefromCrete said:


> The Cardinal is another example of West Virginia's powerful political forces. You notice it serves all the towns in West Virginia at good times, while arriving in the middle of night at the much larger markets of Cincinnati and Indianapolis.


One other historical point to note in the Cardinal's cancellation and very expedited resurrection in the early 1980's. The Cardinal serves as the only passenger rail link between Washington, DC and White Sulfur Springs, WV. While this may not seem to be an important route, Congress' "Doomsday bunker" was located, until 1992, at the Greenbriar Resort in White Sulfur Springs.

According to a recent documentary I saw on the bunker, transit by rail was one of the key means by which Senators/Representatives and their staff were to be moved to the Greenbriar in case of national emergency.

This explains the rapid action of Congress after the cancellation of the Cardinal by Amtrak.


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## jis (Aug 9, 2009)

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but looking at the map, what was the train that routed through St. Cloud, MN, and what Minnesota stations did it call at that are no longer served?
> Thanks


St. Cloud MN is still served by the _Empire Builde_r.

When both the _Empire Builder_ and the _North Coast Hiawatha_ were in service, between Minneapolis and Fargo

The _Empire Builder_ traveled on the route:

Willmar - Morris - Breckentidge

The _North Coast Hiawatha_ traveled on the route:

St. Cloud - Staples - Detroit Lakes

When the _North Coast Hiawatha_ was discontinued the _Empire Builder_ was routed along the _North Coast Hiawatha_'s route between Minneapolis and Fargo, consequently Willmar, Morris and Breckenridge lost service.

You can see the Jan 1978 schedules of both the _Empire Builder_ and the _North Coast Hiawatha_ posted by MrFSS about half way down this thread.


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## Shawn (Aug 9, 2009)

OK, maybe I missed it...but didn't the EB split at Spokane even then? And send one section to PDX and one to SEA, just like today?


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## jamesontheroad (Aug 9, 2009)

jis said:


> St. Cloud MN is still served by the _Empire Builde_r.
> When both the _Empire Builder_ and the _North Coast Hiawatha_ were in service, between Minneapolis and Fargo
> 
> The _Empire Builder_ traveled on the route:
> ...


Thanks! A more specific question related to my newfound interest in this part of the world is over here: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?showtopic=28555


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## Bill Haithcoat (Aug 9, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I found this fascinating _List of trains that ran on the eve of Amtrak_. Thought y'all might like it.
> ...



I think the New Haven was part of Penn Central at these late days. Double check the Penn Central listings toward the end.


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## JSmith (Aug 10, 2009)

Does anyone have a link to or a scan of a system map of the US passenger rail network at its peak (I guess around WW2 or earlier)? It'd be interesting to see what the rail network used to cover compared to today.


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## alanh (Aug 10, 2009)

I think that would be pretty close to the actual rail map of the time, barring industrial spurs -- at least here in Arizona, just about all the rail lines had some sort of passenger service on them.


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## JSmith (Aug 10, 2009)

OK, how depressing. I found a 1918 map of the NY Central lines on Wikipedia. Amazing - you really could go just about anywhere by train! What a shame that we lost this system (and much of the infrastructure has crumbled away now, I expect). I wonder how frequently the trains ran back then.

Although I see even then there wasn't a direct route from Buffalo to Pittsburgh without going by way of Cleveland!

Can anyone recommend a good book (or web site) on the "golden age" of passenger rail in the US?


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## railiner (Aug 11, 2009)

JSmith said:


> OK, how depressing. I found a 1918 map of the NY Central lines on Wikipedia. Amazing - you really could go just about anywhere by train! What a shame that we lost this system (and much of the infrastructure has crumbled away now, I expect). I wonder how frequently the trains ran back then.
> Although I see even then there wasn't a direct route from Buffalo to Pittsburgh without going by way of Cleveland!
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good book (or web site) on the "golden age" of passenger rail in the US?


Although long out of print (try Amazon or Ebay?), nothing compares to the great volumes I and II of "The Trains We Rode" by Beebe and Clegg published by Howell-North back in the '60's. Also highly recommended is "Some Classic Trains" and "More Classic Trains" by Dubin, published by Kalmbach. I also recommend looking for an old copy or a reprint of an Official Guide of the Railways from the era you are interested in. It will provide an unbelievable wealth of fascinating reading!


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## railiner (Aug 11, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> Here is the first Amtrak table from 1971.


I notice the reference note in the map legend about switching the routes between Fort Worth and Houston. To my knowledge, the route proposed on the map was never implemented. Am I correct?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 11, 2009)

I love how Canton is in the middle of Ohio in the 1971 map!


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## mercedeslove (Aug 11, 2009)

wow chicago had a lot of trains going and coming


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2009)

There's no service to Cleveland in the 1971 map. Is that correct? I had thought that the Lake Shore was one of the original Amtrak trains, but clearly it was added later. When did it start?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 11, 2009)

Guest said:


> There's no service to Cleveland in the 1971 map. Is that correct? I had thought that the Lake Shore was one of the original Amtrak trains, but clearly it was added later. When did it start?


2003.

Not that CLE didn't have service-- over the years it has had the Three Rivers, Capitol Limited and variations thereupon to service Northern Ohio.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 11, 2009)

Guest said:


> There's no service to Cleveland in the 1971 map. Is that correct? I had thought that the Lake Shore was one of the original Amtrak trains, but clearly it was added later. When did it start?


The Lake Shore was not part of the original Amtrak service. For a short while in 1972, it was a state supported train. After a brief hiatus, it was restarted as part of the national system.


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 11, 2009)

Shawn said:


> OK, maybe I missed it...but didn't the EB split at Spokane even then? And send one section to PDX and one to SEA, just like today?


 Both the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited split at Spokane with a section going to Portland (same train for both the EB and NCL) and the main section of the train going to Seattle. Up until Amtrak, BN also ran secondary trains from St Paul to Seattle with a section going to Portland. Those trains were the Western Star and Mainstreeter. Even though they were secondary trains, they still carried Slumbercoaches or Sleepers and diner lounge cars. Even the secondary trains were well patronized by tourist in the summer and local travelers in the winter due to the harsh winter weather and also little in the way of competing transportation such as planes and buses.


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## AAARGH! (Aug 11, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > There's no service to Cleveland in the 1971 map. Is that correct? I had thought that the Lake Shore was one of the original Amtrak trains, but clearly it was added later. When did it start?
> ...


ALC, are you sure? I remember taking it in the late 1970s or early 80's. And it wasn't the CL either.


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## AlanB (Aug 11, 2009)

AAARGH! said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Guest said:
> ...


I don't recall for sure when the LSL became a regular Amtrak train, I'm sure someone remembers the correct date, but I can assure you that it wasn't 2003.

I took 3 trips on the LSL in 2000, and still more in 2001. In fact I've been on the LSL at least once every year for the past 9 years now.


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## jis (Aug 11, 2009)

AlanB said:


> I don't recall for sure when the LSL became a regular Amtrak train, I'm sure someone remembers the correct date, but I can assure you that it wasn't 2003.
> I took 3 trips on the LSL in 2000, and still more in 2001. In fact I've been on the LSL at least once every year for the past 9 years now.


I believe it was introduced in its permanent Amtrak form at the latest sometime in 1973. It is well documented that it got Viewliners in 1996, and even I had traveled on it in 1979 in Slumbercoach out of Grand Central.

Of course pre-Amtrak there was a Lake Shore Limited too as this news article from 1940 would suggest:



> *WRECK OF LIMITED YIELDS 27 BODIES; SEARCH CONTINUES; Hundreds Labor at Clearing Torn Cars of N.Y. Central Train Near Little Falls MOST OF DEAD IDENTIFIED* _Injured in Hospitals Exceed 70 --Some Lay Disaster to Speed, Others to Rails_
> 
> By WARREN MOSCOW Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
> 
> ...


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## Greg (Aug 11, 2009)

jis said:


> I found this fascinating _List of trains that ran on the eve of Amtrak_. Thought y'all might like it.



Maybe this list needs to be sent to all members of congress with some note about the systematic and political shenanigans which led to the demise of our once great passenger rail system and how it's time to resurrect all these routes!


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 11, 2009)

Greg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I found this fascinating _List of trains that ran on the eve of Amtrak_. Thought y'all might like it.
> ...


 Unfortunately some of the actual rail lines used by passenger trains prior to 5/1/1971 no longer exist.


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## JSmith (Aug 11, 2009)

railiner said:


> Although long out of print (try Amazon or Ebay?), nothing compares to the great volumes I and II of "The Trains We Rode" by Beebe and Clegg published by Howell-North back in the '60's.


Thanks for the tip! It looks like my public library has a copy of this available; I'll go see if I can check it out this week.


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## railiner (Aug 12, 2009)

JSmith said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Although long out of print (try Amazon or Ebay?), nothing compares to the great volumes I and II of "The Trains We Rode" by Beebe and Clegg published by Howell-North back in the '60's.
> ...


See if they have those other two I suggested as well. And while you're in that section of the library, browse through others. Looks like you have a good library!

Good luck!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Aug 12, 2009)

JSmith said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Although long out of print (try Amazon or Ebay?), nothing compares to the great volumes I and II of "The Trains We Rode" by Beebe and Clegg published by Howell-North back in the '60's.
> ...


Here is a good book ,"Classic American Streamliners", by Mike Schafer and Joe Welsh.

Also keep in mind there were books written about just one railroad, or even just one train, like many books about the 20th Century Ltd, for one example. Let us know about that.

And it was suggested that you look for Official Railway Guides. Good advice!! Now I cannot read your mind, I can barely read mine, so I do not know what time period you would appreciate the most.If it is pure age and pure mileage then I guess anything way back even in the 30's or so would be good.

I have some thoughts of my own, to wit,

1930's, equipment apparently looked pretty much the same. Then the great depression, not much travel. What I have seen from that time period suggests to me that not as many trains had names as do today, or in some cases the same names. A more recent guide might tie in better with more recent train names.

The WW2 years, well yes lots of travel but mostly troop trains, not listed in the timetable. Guess what, the general public was actively discouraged from travel, and I have seen the old ads to prove it, with captions like,"Is this trip necessary? We need this space for our fighting troops." You would not have seen many of us out running around building up our AGR points(so to speak--not being literal here)!!

Diesel and streamlining had been discovered just before WW 2, but production stopped during the war.

The late 40's after the war were exciting times indeed for nearly all industries. The drive for diesels and lightweight streamlined trains began big time. A time of transition. A timetable or guide from here would be good.

But I kind of like the 50's, Major systems still intact. Yet the downslide was beginning but not yet, too seriously, it would advance of course.Some RR's beginning to feel negative but most trains still running...for the moment.And there were still some positives,noted below.

Some bright spots. If you get an Official Railway Guide about 1956 it would include, by then if not before, 1.El Capitan's re-equipping as a high level train, 2. the complete re-equipping of the Denver Zephyr, one of the last trains to be done such,3 the new domes for the Union Pacific, 4.the new trains on both railroads in Canada,5.things I have forgotten.

And something negative would happen November 1957.That was dropping the Dixieland (formerly Dixie Flagler) from Chicago to Miami via Evansville, Nashville Chattanooga,Atlanta,Jak. Some may cry "foul" for me mentioning this since this was the first train I ever rode.

But it is a valid point because this was the oldest direct link from CHI to straight through to MIA, the first of several routes to fall. So, even if I had been born in on Jupiter instead of in Chattanooga, this would still be significant.

The later 50's and 60's I do not recommend because trains started slimmng down in size and many discontinued. The competition from the highway and the air ways, plus the loss of the U.S. mail contract made it more and more depressing.

I say ALL of this to say I recommend mid 50's for buying an Official Guide, for what you will see in it.I think your original interest was purely in mileage rather than the trains themselves But most significant routes still existed in the 50's. But the guides did list mileage which had become freight only. But still sometimes track was abandoned and torn up in later years.

BTW, try to find individual railroad timetables on ebay also.


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## WanderingFolker (Aug 15, 2009)

St. Louis to Philly!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? No transfers up in Chicago?! O how I wish this was in the future plans of amtrak rather then their history! Please, someone tell me Amtrak is adding a new line!

:unsure: :blink:


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## saxman (Aug 15, 2009)

WanderingFolker said:


> St. Louis to Philly!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? No transfers up in Chicago?! O how I wish this was in the future plans of amtrak rather then their history! Please, someone tell me Amtrak is adding a new line!:unsure: :blink:


That was the National Limited going from New York to Kansas via PHL, PGH, Columbus and Indy. I don't think they really can't bring it back. I think I heard some of the tracks don't even exist on that line anymore.


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## railiner (Aug 16, 2009)

saxman66 said:


> WanderingFolker said:
> 
> 
> > St. Louis to Philly!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? No transfers up in Chicago?! O how I wish this was in the future plans of amtrak rather then their history! Please, someone tell me Amtrak is adding a new line!:unsure: :blink:
> ...


Yes, too bad indeed. By the way, the National Limited should have been named the Capitals Limited. What other train directly served as many state capitals as it did (Trenton, Harrisburg, Columbus, Indianapolis, Jefferson City? Oh, and Washington, the nation's capital.


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