# Acela 21 development, testing and deployment



## DSS&A

Hi,

Alstom is making progress at their Hornell facility. They have plans in the works to build two new building, expand an existing building and construct a HSR test track. They also received the first traction motor for the first power car back in October.

Here's a link to some of the site development information that is public.

http://www.eveningtribune.com/news/20171019/alstom-expansion-approved


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## dlagrua

I've read discussion about a Siemens-Alstom merger of railroad equipment manufacturing divisions. . Should this happen it will make the company one if not the largest manufacturer of engines and rolling stock around. Amtrak uses Siemens equipment but sadly the Viewliner II sleeper, diner and baggage car orders went to CAF that is having a hard time meeting specs and delivering. Thy can't even seem to fix the baggage dorms that were returned to them last year


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## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> I've read discussion about a Siemens-Alstom merger of railroad equipment manufacturing divisions. . Should this happen it will make the company one if not the largest manufacturer of engines and rolling stock around. Amtrak uses Siemens equipment but sadly the Viewliner II sleeper, diner and baggage car orders went to CAF that is having a hard time meeting specs and delivering. *Thy can't even seem to fix the baggage dorms that were returned to them last year*


Huh? The bag-dorms aren't coming till after the diners, so how do you know they haven't fixed any issues (assuming they built one and had it tested already).


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## Devil's Advocate

Is there a primer somewhere that explains how the various orders for new passenger rolling stock became so delayed? Are similar delays expected for Acela 2 or any other orders made in the future? I realize that none of us is privy to and/or authorized to speak about internal memos and meeting minutes, and I know it's not unusual for there to be substantial hiccups with large orders of unique hardware involving potentially unusual or outdated building techniques, but I've never fully understood how these orders became such a challenge. Even a simple best guess listing the most likely causes and contributing factors would be greatly appreciated.


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## Acela150

I honestly wouldn't expect a delay in the Alstom order. I'd look for the prototype set next year.


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## jis

The fact that the Avelia order is considerably less unique than the Viewliner order, and is being handled by a manufacturer who has manufacture many hundred such vehicles and systems gives some hope that they may not suffer the same fate as the Viewliners. Sort of like what happened with the Siemens order(s) for things that have been manufactured in large numbers going into the fulfillment of the order(s).

But one can never tell for sure until the proverbial fat lady sings.

I found it kind of interesting that the FRA/ASHTO Railcar Specification Writing Committee rather hurriedly made changes to the Single Level Car specification to make the Siemens offer compliant with the revised specs. Of course, they also have no specs for single level cab cars. So I suspect they will just pick up the specs of the Siemens Cab cars at some point and adopt most of it as their own, as far as Siemens will be willing to let them.


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## PVD

Are the car shells being fabricated at Hornell?


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## jis

The deal was that the first set would be manufactured in Europe but assembled in the US. Subsequent sets would fully meet the Make in US requirements, which implies that the car shells would be manufactured in the US using US originated Aluminum and/or Steel.


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## PVD

That I had, but I was just curious if it was planned for all one area, or if they had a compliant plant in another location (sort of like Kawasaki that will make shells in Lincoln but fit out in Yonkers on some contracts)


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## jis

PVD said:


> That I had, but I was just curious if it was planned for all one area, or if they had a compliant plant in another location (sort of like Kawasaki that will make shells in Lincoln but fit out in Yonkers on some contracts)


haven't heard anything about using multiple locations for manufacturing the Avelias. Only Hornell has been mentioned in that context.

Interestingly, Alstom's Hornell facility for acquired originally from Morrison Knudsen, and MK used that facility to manufacture the Viewliner-Is.


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## PVD

MK did quite a bit of car overhaul work for NYCTA and NJT also. That has been a "rail shop" back to the Erie days.... Lived as Amerail for a while also.....


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## Green Maned Lion

Amerail was just a bankruptcy device of Morrison Knudson, IIRC.


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## jis

Interestingly, the Viewliner I order also involved much drama, including a period when it was not clear that anything will ever be delivered, while the assigned manufacturers were all busy going bankrupt, one after the other. Before that of course the original order was also halved before it ever was placed. And then there were endless delays in delivery.


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## PVD

I think Amerail was the creation of the bonding company which was on the hook for major MK contract dollars because of the bankruptcy if the cars weren't delivered.


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## jis

Yeah. Finally Alstom picked up most of the Viewliner related mess via Amerail.


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## neroden

The underlying unreliability of US railroad car orders weakened the old American railroad car building businesses. Following a few major screwups, most went bankrupt, leaving only Bombardier, who bought out all the remnants. Bombardier's management lost its mind a few years ago and destroyed their world-leading train building business through idiotic moves like outsourcing to Mexico.

The continued "unique American regulations" mean that European or Japanese businesses coming into the market face unusual problems. Of the foreign manufacturers, I would say that Siemens, Alstom, and Kawasaki have overcome this hurdle, while nobody else has. (Breda, later AnsaldoBreda and now Hitachi, was always junk, worldwide.) It took Kawasaki a while. Chinese firm CRRC is making its move into the US market in Boston; maybe they'll succeed.

Most of them fall for the dangled carrots from state governments of "locate your factory here", without thinking about the accessibility of competent workers (because this isn't an issue in tiny Europe or Japan). CAF fell for this. Frankly, so did Alstom. CRRC has a better factory location (as does Kawasaki), and Siemens's location is OK.


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## afigg

jis said:


> The deal was that the first set would be manufactured in Europe but assembled in the US. Subsequent sets would fully meet the Make in US requirements, which implies that the car shells would be manufactured in the US using US originated Stainless Steel.


IIRC, there were documents stating that the first 2 trainsets would be manufactured outside of the US so as to get them earlier for testing and preliminary training. Don't recall if that was changed or if there were any updates on that.

For the car shells, remember, Amtrak got a waiver on the Buy American requirements from the FRA on critical components including the aluminum car body shells. Found my copy of the FRA waiver grant letter. Key excerpt:



> Amtrak seeks a waiver for the following components of Tier III high-speed rail (HSR) trainsets: (1) aluminum car body shells (shell structure/frame-end, floor, roof, side); (2) Integrated cab/CEM structure; (3) vehicle paint; (4) brake control unit; (5) disc brake equipment; (6) tread brake equipment/tread cleaners; (7) brake valves, and (8) parking brake units (Components). For the reasons contained in this letter, FRA is granting Amtrak's request.


On the contract status front, was there any discussion here of the Amtrak Inspector General report, date Nov 16 2017, which has useful information: TRAIN OPERATIONS: The Acela Express 2021 Program Faces Oversight Weaknesses and Schedule Risks? The November report stated there was already a 3 month slip or delay in the design and production schedule. The OIG report lists the 10 infrastructure projects that were funded by the RIFF loan which may be the first place I have seen them listed. The OIG iidentifies 4 of the projects as critical to the new Acelas going into revenue service.



> The infrastructure portion of the Acela Express 2021 program includes 10 improvement projects on the Northeast Corridor totaling $850 million. As shown in Figure 1, four of these projects must be completed to run the new trainsets, and two must be completed to run trains on the higher-frequency timetable. The other four projects do not need to be completed by 2021 to run the new trainsets.


Anyone want to bet that all of these projects will be completed by 2021 or 2022?


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## jis

afigg you are correct. The deal was for the first two sets for which waiver was granted.


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## PVD

Interesting to see reference to aluminum car shells, given the issues relating to stainless steel fabrication on some recent car projects...


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## WoodyinNYC

afigg said:


> ...was there any discussion here of the Amtrak Inspector General report, date Nov 16 2017 ? It stated there was already a 3 month slip or delay in the design and production schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The infrastructure portion of the program includes 10 projects on the Northeast Corridor totaling $850 million. ... four of these projects must be completed to run the new trainsets, and two must be completed to run trains on the higher-frequency timetable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone want to bet that all of these projects will be completed by 2021 or 2022?
Click to expand...

Completed on schedule? Nah. Alstom says they're already 89 days behind. In the end, I'm betting that the Sunnyside Yard item entangled with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority is the one Least Likely To Succeed. YMMV


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## WoodyinNYC

afigg said:


> On the contract status front, was there any discussion here of the Amtrak Inspector General report, date Nov 16 2017, which has useful information: TRAIN OPERATIONS: The Acela Express 2021 Program Faces Oversight Weaknesses and Schedule Risks?
> 
> Anyone want to bet that all of these projects will be completed by 2021 or 2022?


Much delay and it will start to pinch. Deliver the cars on time and start to make money, to make the first payment in June. Otherwise, anyone spare some change?


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## Acela150

WoodyinNYC said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...was there any discussion here of the Amtrak Inspector General report, date Nov 16 2017 ? It stated there was already a 3 month slip or delay in the design and production schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The infrastructure portion of the program includes 10 projects on the Northeast Corridor totaling $850 million. ... four of these projects must be completed to run the new trainsets, and two must be completed to run trains on the higher-frequency timetable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anyone want to bet that all of these projects will be completed by 2021 or 2022?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Completed on schedule? Nah. Alstom says they're already 89 days behind. In the end, I'm betting that the Sunnyside Yard item entangled with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority is the one Least Likely To Succeed. YMMV
Click to expand...

89 days isn't much on such a large order like this. I have faith in Alstom. Unlike the Bombardier-Alstom Consortium.


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## DSS&A

Alstom released a short YouTube video illustrating the progression of their HSR train set design. The link was kindly posted on railfan.net.


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## bretton88

I think those are going to be some beautiful trains when delivered. The question is can we wait 2-3 more years of the Acela product degrading?


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## jis

There really is no choice on that matter. So suck it up and bear it. [emoji6]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## DSS&A

Alston has extended its facility lease and hired more workers. More Amtrak related work will ramp-up in April.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155206772141787&id=229880691786&_ft_=top_level_post_id.10155206772141787%3Atl_objid.10155206772141787%3Athrowback_story_fbid.10155206772141787%3Apage_id.229880691786%3Apage_insights.%7B"229880691786"%3A%7B"role"%3A1%2C"page_id"%3A229880691786%2C"post_context"%3A%7B"story_fbid"%3A10155206772141787%2C"publish_time"%3A1517573832%2C"story_name"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"object_fbtype"%3A266%7D%2C"actor_id"%3A229880691786%2C"psn"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"sl"%3A9%2C"targets"%3A%5B%7B"page_id"%3A229880691786%2C"actor_id"%3A229880691786%2C"role"%3A1%2C"post_id"%3A10155206772141787%2C"share_id"%3A0%7D%5D%7D%7D&__tn__=%2C%3B


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## Acela150

Good to know.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Acela150

I have noticed that recently there has been zero info coming out on the new trainsets. Which to me is a good thing. I'm going to guess that sooner or later we'll see some leaked photos of the new trainsets. IIRC the Estimated Delivery Date for the prototype set is First Quarter 2019.


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## DSS&A

I have noticed since February 2018, there have been quite a few job notice postings at Alston in the local newspaper, but no new newspaper articles.


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## cpotisch

I just want to emphasize, “Avelia Liberty” is possibly the worst name ever applied to any piece of rolling stock in the history of mankind. It’s just awful.


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## Bob Dylan

cpotisch said:


> I just want to emphasize, Avelia Liberty is possibly the worst name ever applied to any piece of rolling stock in the history of mankind. Its just awful.


Yep, I'm thinking Acela II will somehow end up being the "Official" Name, but even if not, train fans,and riders will call them by that name!
Best Name ever for a LD Train "The Orient Express".

Best here, " The Wabash Cannonball" or " The City of Everywhere".


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## cpotisch

Silver Streak Zephyr has gotta be my favorite LD name.


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## jis

cpotisch said:


> I just want to emphasize, “Avelia Liberty” is possibly the worst name ever applied to any piece of rolling stock in the history of mankind. It’s just awful.


Acelas train sets were “American Flyer” before Lionel got on their case. Then they changed it to something else. Fortunately, manufacturer’s product name seldom has much to do with branding of service using those products. 
Afterall RaiLJets are not called Viaggio either.


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## Acela150

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just want to emphasize, “Avelia Liberty” is possibly the worst name ever applied to any piece of rolling stock in the history of mankind. It’s just awful.
> 
> 
> 
> Acelas train sets were “American Flyer” before Lionel got on their case.
Click to expand...

And the term American Flyer wasn't original IMO. Acela is for sure original and IMO sounds better then "American Flyer". But the one thing I'll always get a kick out of is that Amtrak claims they renamed the Acela project as a "departure from the original name".


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## Acela150

Amtrak posted projected images of the new Acela II trainsets on their media page. A thank you to Jis for posting this on the AU facebook page.

The new trainsets appear to have a more European look. Which IMO is not a surprise considering the builder is Alstom. Personally I was hoping for a more European look compared to what we have now.

https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/nextgentraininteriors/


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## districtRich

Acela150 said:


> Amtrak posted projected images of the new Acela II trainsets on their media page. A thank you to Jis for posting this on the AU facebook page.
> 
> The new trainsets appear to have a more European look. Which IMO is not a surprise considering the builder is Alstom. Personally I was hoping for a more European look compared to what we have now.
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/nextgentraininteriors/


It'll be great when these arrive. I love riding the Acela trains now, but they're definitely getting a bit shabby although my last ride was a few months ago before they started the interior updates.


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## west point

Acela150 said:


> Amtrak posted projected images of the new Acela II trainsets on their media page. A thank you to Jis for posting this on the AU facebook page.
> 
> The new trainsets appear to have a more European look. Which IMO is not a surprise considering the builder is Alstom. Personally I was hoping for a more European look compared to what we have now.
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/nextgentraininteriors/


Picture 6 shows Boston as next stop, time 1452, and speed 175. We believe that is several Gothas ?/ Also WC for water closet ?


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## bretton88

west point said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak posted projected images of the new Acela II trainsets on their media page. A thank you to Jis for posting this on the AU facebook page.
> 
> The new trainsets appear to have a more European look. Which IMO is not a surprise considering the builder is Alstom. Personally I was hoping for a more European look compared to what we have now.
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/nextgentraininteriors/
> 
> 
> 
> Picture 6 shows Boston as next stop, time 1452, and speed 175. We believe that is several Gothas ?/ Also WC for water closet ?
Click to expand...

To be fair, hard to fit "toilet" into a small light like that and WC is probably more universally recognized that other symbols for the toilet.


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## Thirdrail7

By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!


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## cocojacoby

Thirdrail7 said:


> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!


THAT SUCKS! I really hate this new attitude that we have to accept riding backwards at 160 mph.

Why can't we be as clever as the Japanese regarding this?

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19/rotating-train-seats-japan_n_5591662.html


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## west point

cocojacoby said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THAT SUCKS! I really hate this new attitude that we have to accept riding backwards at 160 mph.
> 
> Why can't we be as clever as the Japanese regarding this?
Click to expand...

It may be those rotating seats would not FRA crash worth specifications ?


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## NSC1109

west point said:


> cocojacoby said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THAT SUCKS! I really hate this new attitude that we have to accept riding backwards at 160 mph.
> Why can't we be as clever as the Japanese regarding this?
Click to expand...

Some of the seats on the single level corridor coaches can in fact rotate. I doubt it would be hard to transplant that to the Acela II.


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## frequentflyer

Thirdrail7 said:


> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!


Brightline Siemens cars and by extension California and the midwest is or will be set up like this. Makes turning a train quicker.


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## frequentflyer

Acela150 said:


> Amtrak posted projected images of the new Acela II trainsets on their media page. A thank you to Jis for posting this on the AU facebook page.
> 
> The new trainsets appear to have a more European look. Which IMO is not a surprise considering the builder is Alstom. Personally I was hoping for a more European look compared to what we have now.
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/nextgentraininteriors/


It is a TGV clone, same power cars different pax cars. Which may make this one of Amtrak's smartest procurement move ever.


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## bretton88

frequentflyer said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak posted projected images of the new Acela II trainsets on their media page. A thank you to Jis for posting this on the AU facebook page.
> 
> The new trainsets appear to have a more European look. Which IMO is not a surprise considering the builder is Alstom. Personally I was hoping for a more European look compared to what we have now.
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/nextgentraininteriors/
> 
> 
> 
> It is a TGV clone, same power cars different pax cars. Which may make this one of Amtrak's smartest procurement move ever.
Click to expand...

Not quite a clone. The Avelia has tilt, which the TGV does not.


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## Anderson

Also, I think that not turning the seats means they can use a different in-seat power setup. I seem to recall being told that this was in the works about 2-3 years ago by someone who got pulled into a product focus group.


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## cpotisch

NSC1109 said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THAT SUCKS! I really hate this new attitude that we have to accept riding backwards at 160 mph.
> Why can't we be as clever as the Japanese regarding this?
Click to expand...

The seats on all Amfleets and Superliners (and I think Horizons?) have reversible seats. That doesn't mean it's necessarily easy to put on Acela II.


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## Acela150

districtRich said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak posted projected images of the new Acela II trainsets on their media page. A thank you to Jis for posting this on the AU facebook page.
> 
> The new trainsets appear to have a more European look. Which IMO is not a surprise considering the builder is Alstom. Personally I was hoping for a more European look compared to what we have now.
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/nextgentraininteriors/
> 
> 
> 
> It'll be great when these arrive. I love riding the Acela trains now, but they're definitely getting a bit shabby although my last ride was a few months ago before they started the interior updates.
Click to expand...

The last time I rode an Acela which my last train trip in April I rode on 2173 from BOS to PHL. The First Class sears were in need of a lot of love. But that is happening currently.



Thirdrail7 said:


> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!


Another part of European design but the reasoning makes sense. It’s not easy if at all practical to have rotating seats with electric outlets.

I’m curious as to how they’ll assign seats on the new TS. Biz and First or just First?



cocojacoby said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THAT SUCKS! I really hate this new attitude that we have to accept riding backwards at 160 mph.
> Why can't we be as clever as the Japanese regarding this?
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19/rotating-train-seats-japan_n_5591662.html
Click to expand...

I can tell that you’re not familiar with any Amtrak rolling stock.

The seats on all equipment including the current Acela trainsets rotate. Including the seats at the tables. Should Amtrak decide to move the tables in the cars.



cpotisch said:


> NSC1109 said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THAT SUCKS! I really hate this new attitude that we have to accept riding backwards at 160 mph.
> Why can't we be as clever as the Japanese regarding this?
Click to expand...

Correct. But it’s not really possible to put the electric outlets in each seat while they can rotate.


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## cpotisch

Acela150 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, the seats are fixed. Half will face the direction of travel and half will face the other way. Guess who gets to pay more? Enjoy your assigned seat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THAT SUCKS! I really hate this new attitude that we have to accept riding backwards at 160 mph.
> Why can't we be as clever as the Japanese regarding this?
Click to expand...

The outlets are on the seats themselves with the Acela IIs? Why?


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## Acela150

They’ll be putting the outlets in the seats to offer more passenger convenience. It’s kind of annoying to have to stretch a cord across someone’s lap. [emoji6]


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## keelhauled

Acela150 said:


> Correct. But it’s not really possible to put the electric outlets in each seat while they can rotate.


You can put a distributor ring and brushes in the seat to get the electrical connection. Actually, if it's only a 180 degree rotation you could probably use a cable with a bit of slack. It would be one more point of failure though.


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## Acela150

keelhauled said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Correct. But it’s not really possible to put the electric outlets in each seat while they can rotate.
> 
> 
> 
> You can put a distributor ring and brushes in the seat to get the electrical connection. Actually, if it's only a 180 degree rotation you could probably use a cable with a bit of slack. It would be one more point of failure though.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And if it fails in a rotating seat cause of something like that. It’s not a cheap fix.


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## cocojacoby

Well, Boston and New York have a loop and D.C. has a wye so the entire train could be turned. Also, I think a cord/cable attached to a 180 degree turning seat would be very easy to accomplish. I could easily be protected inside the base or with a removable shield of some sort.


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## Thirdrail7

Unless something has changed, I probably saw (and voted) in the same presentation as Anderson. If that is the case, the electrical outlets are going to be in a space between the seats. They space will be similar what exists in the current split club seating. This will eliminate the need for you to be a contortionist to plug in your stuff....like you currently need to be on the Acela. You will no longer have to reach across people on the inside....although they could still have the outlets full by the time you arrive.

That being said, turning seats requires personnel. Turning trains requires personnel. Personnel=costs. Turning seats with existing automated technology increases the costs and maintenance of the train, which is something that is not desired. Therefore, since there are groups of passengers in the United States and a great deal of other countries operate in this configuration, it was decided that this train would follow suit. They will also cut down on the number of available bathrooms (costs lowered and revenue spaces increases) and add other things like tables and stuff.

Naturally, I'm against most of this and submitted my preferences. I will say, they had this seat that was a contender that I loved. It had the space, it could turn but instead of the back of the seat fully reclining, the bottom portion of the seat moved. It was extremely comfortable. Since they are going with fixed seating, that was what I voted for.

I still think it is bogus. The reality of the situation is they know damn well some people don't like riding backwards. It is a revenue grab (which I alluded to before....I'll attempt to find the quote) They know people will make reservations in advance and with pre-selected seating, I'm of the opinion they are counting on those people to pay more for window seats, forward facing seats, table seats, etc, while the budget minded person wil lsay, it is cheaper to ride backwards.....and vomit on the person in front of me....or is it behind me, since I'm backwards?






And they are probably right.


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## cocojacoby

I don't remember the exact location of a report I read but I think it was England. The single biggest complaint the company was getting was the fixed seats and the unpleasantness of riding backwards.

Can not believe Amtrak is doing this.


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## Skyline

I never thought I'd find a reason severe enough to _*not *_ride a train, but being forced to ride backwards is the first. I have balance issues resulting from a (benign) brain tumor almost 20 years ago, and I know from experience how nauseous I get riding backwards. It can last several days after onset, and I cannot afford that. It's one reason I don't fly, too.


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## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> Well, Boston and New York have a loop and D.C. has a wye so the entire train could be turned. Also, I think a cord/cable attached to a 180 degree turning seat would be very easy to accomplish. I could easily be protected inside the base or with a removable shield of some sort.


However the high-platform Acela tracks in DC stop at the station, so it's way faster and easier to just switch the seats for the train back.


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## Devil's Advocate

I'm not sure what y'all are complaining about. Riding backwards on the world's slowest and roughest high speed network with longer trains featuring fewer restrooms sounds like a great experience to me. I personally cannot wait for this new upgraded replacement to be delivered and hope I can be among the very first people watch it leave the station without me.


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## districtRich

Aren't nearly half the seats in the first class car already backwards no matter which way the train is running, and that doesn't seem to be too big of a deal. They're usually the last chosen from what I've noticed, but the car does fill when I've been on it, and a lot of people do end up riding backwards. If first class can handle it now I'm sure business class will adjust when the time comes.


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## cpotisch

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm not sure what y'all are complaining about. Riding backwards on the world's slowest and roughest high speed network with longer trains featuring fewer restrooms sounds like a great experience to me. I personally cannot wait for this new upgraded replacement to be delivered and hope I can be among the very first people watch it leave the station without me.


They are fewer bathrooms now? Great.


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## Thirdrail7

cocojacoby said:


> I don't remember the exact location of a report I read but I think it was England. The single biggest complaint the company was getting was the fixed seats and the unpleasantness of riding backwards.
> 
> Can not believe Amtrak is doing this.


As much as I'm not a fan, Amtrak is already doing this. Indeed, they've been doing it for years:



districtRich said:


> Aren't nearly half the seats in the first class car already backwards no matter which way the train is running, and that doesn't seem to be too big of a deal. They're usually the last chosen from what I've noticed, but the car does fill when I've been on it, and a lot of people do end up riding backwards. If first class can handle it now I'm sure business class will adjust when the time comes.



When I actually brought up that our passengers don't like to ride backwards, I was informed the Pacific Surfliners run 50/50 seating. In addition to the Acela sets and anyone occupying a four seater, the Keystones run 50/50 seating. The Pennsylvanian runs its entire trip between NYP-PHL with backwards seating. Before the Vermonter was rerouted, it had 50/50 seating.

This will encourage you to make advance reservations and pick your seats. It may also encourage people to take the bus or the plane too.

That being said, I need to help out Devil's Advocate and fix his quote:



Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm not sure what y'all are complaining about. Riding backwards on the world's slowest and roughest high speed network with longer trains featuring fewer restrooms, * much higher prices and possibly less seat pitch* sounds like a great experience to me. I personally cannot wait for this new upgraded replacement to be delivered and hope I can be among the very first people watch it leave the station without me.



You're welcome DA.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Last summer, i rode an Italian high speed train between Naples and Rome. A large part of the seating was sets of four seats facing each other with a table in between. Most of the seats were occupied and I didn't notice any problems with people refusing to sit "backwards." The seats in the original Highliner commuter cars on Metra Electric had fixed seating with all seats facing the center of the car. While "forward" facing seats were more popular, it wasn't like rear facing seats were left empty. People get used to it. If you're got a medical problem, then claim a handicap and you'll be seated in a forward facing seat. Like everything else on AU, this debate seems overwrought.


----------



## railiner

It has been long recognized that most passenger's prefer to ride facing where they are going, as opposed to where they've been...

As proof of this, I point to the old practice of The Pullman Company giving the occupants of the more expensive lower berth's, the right to ride in the forward facing seat, during the day...


----------



## OBS

I will never forget the day I had a passenger come in for dinner, completely dark outside, and make a big production about how she" had to ride forward or she would be sick". I led her to a table and let her choose her seat, upon which her and her husband proceeded to sit facing backwards and enjoyed her evening meal without a problem.....


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

MikefromCrete said:


> Last summer, i rode an Italian high speed train between Naples and Rome. A large part of the seating was sets of four seats facing each other with a table in between. Most of the seats were occupied and I didn't notice any problems with people refusing to sit "backwards." The seats in the original Highliner commuter cars on Metra Electric had fixed seating with all seats facing the center of the car. While "forward" facing seats were more popular, it wasn't like rear facing seats were left empty. People get used to it. If you're got a medical problem, then claim a handicap and you'll be seated in a forward facing seat. Like everything else on AU, this debate seems overwrought.


As to Metra, the new seats that are slowly being installed are permanently fixed in place as well. In my opinion, they are much more comfortable which makes up for not being able to turn them, although I have heard many complaints about the seats from others.


----------



## PerRock

Thirdrail7 said:


> cocojacoby said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the exact location of a report I read but I think it was England. The single biggest complaint the company was getting was the fixed seats and the unpleasantness of riding backwards.
> 
> Can not believe Amtrak is doing this.
> 
> 
> 
> As much as I'm not a fan, Amtrak is already doing this. Indeed, they've been doing it for years:
Click to expand...

I was going to say... the Michigan service regularly has half the seats facing the other way.

peter


----------



## Bob Dylan

Lest we forget, current Amtrak Sleepers have Backward Facing Seats in the Roomettes and half of the Regular Bedrooms.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I actually like riding backwards, but I don't know how it would be on a really fast train. I've done it on NJT, the Keystone, and (long, long ago) in my uncle's station wagon where all the children wanted to sit in the seat that looked out the back when he drove me and my cousins down the Shore--it was considered a special treat to have that seat, and we took turns. However, we were probably going only about 40 miles an hour, if that, on real back roads. But we always stopped for frozen custard, and I never got sick.

But that's a whole lot different than 160 miles per hour or whatever the Acela goes.


----------



## JRR

Bob Dylan said:


> Lest we forget, current Amtrak Sleepers have Backward Facing Seats in half the Roomettes and Regular Bedrooms when 2 occupy them!


Exactly! My wife and I have grown accustomed to our “usual” seats in the roomette and that results in sometimes forward and sometimes backward depending on the particular roomette and which was the car is oriented. Initially we both thought riding backwards would be unpleasant but have both come to the conclusion that there are advantages to each.


----------



## cpotisch

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I actually like riding backwards, but I don't know how it would be on a really fast train. I've done it on NJT, the Keystone, and (long, long ago) in my uncle's station wagon where all the children wanted to sit in the seat that looked out the back when he drove me and my cousins down the Shore--it was considered a special treat to have that seat, and we took turns. However, we were probably going only about 40 miles an hour, if that, on real back roads. But we always stopped for frozen custard, and I never got sick.
> 
> But that's a whole lot different than 160 miles per hour or whatever the Acela goes.


I wouldn't quite say that I _like _riding backwards, but for the most part I could care less. It can be a little unsettling if we come to a stop quickly or accelerate quickly and I'm facing the other way, but when we're just cruising, there's no real difference.


----------



## Acela150

OBS said:


> I will never forget the day I had a passenger come in for dinner, completely dark outside, and make a big production about how she" had to ride forward or she would be sick". I led her to a table and let her choose her seat, upon which her and her husband proceeded to sit facing backwards and enjoyed her evening meal without a problem.....


I laughed my rear end off when I read this. So did my co-worker.

ThirdRail, I understand your point about reserving seats. Which that's not an issue. But there is one issue.. How will people know which way the trainset is going say 3 months before they board? e.g Which end the First Class Car is on. Heck no one know where the First Class car is until they board. Now if you're in the know about the Trainset rotation then you can somewhat predict which end it'll be on. But is this something that is being worked out?


----------



## Thirdrail7

MikefromCrete said:


> Like everything else on AU, this debate seems overwrought.



I wouldn't go that far, MikefromCrete. These are real concerns, particularly with this in mind:



Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm not sure what y'all are complaining about. * Riding backwards on the world's slowest and roughest high speed network *






Mystic River Dragon said:


> *But that's a whole lot different than 160 miles per hour or whatever the Acela goes.*





cpotisch said:


> *It can be a little unsettling if we come to a stop quickly or accelerate quickly and I'm facing the other way,* but when we're just cruising, there's no real difference.



When we had the meeting and they mentioned the Pacific Surfliner, I was quick to mention the difference in operating conditions. The comparison to a heavier train equipped with slow loading diesels accelerating to 79 mph on wood ties is not the same as bouncing along on at 125+ mph on the concrete ties which are replete with mud spots and interlockings that are quite rough. I can only hope this equipment doesn't brake like the current HST.

I also asked how many of them actually rode the trains and invited them to ride a Keystone to PHL so they could see the "Philly Shuffle" with their own eyes. This is the practice of through passengers PHL boarding a keystone in NYP or HAR and asking which way the train is operating. They sit in the forward facing seats. When the train arrives in PHL, they wait for the train to thin out, and then attempt to switch seats so they are facing the direction of travel for the next leg of the trip.

This is not small group of people.

At any rate, I hope the plan will change but I seriously doubt it will.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> ThirdRail, I understand your point about reserving seats. Which that's not an issue. But there is one issue.. How will people know which way the trainset is going say 3 months before they board? e.g Which end the First Class Car is on. Heck no one know where the First Class car is until they board. Now if you're in the know about the Trainset rotation then you can somewhat predict which end it'll be on. But is this something that is being worked out?



Three months in advance? You may not know which way the train is going to point 20 minutes before it is released from the yard. This is one of the main problems with assigned/pre-selected seating and is something that still plagues the seat assignment pilot. The rotations generally remain the same. However, when manipulations and service disruptions occur, the question was asked regarding what resources are available for pointing and are we willing to delay the train to satisfy the diagram. The answer was an emphatic NO.

So, it will ALWAYS have to the potential to be an issue.


----------



## keelhauled

Thirdrail7 said:


> That being said, I need to help out Devil's Advocate and fix his quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> * possibly less seat pitch*
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome DA.
Click to expand...

Oh, COME ON.


----------



## jis

As long as the rest of the world operates trains at upto 220mph with backward facing seats without any issue I just tend to see this repeated discussions/arguments as a peculiarly American pastime. The few that have genuine issues can be accommodated like they are elsewhere.

OK. Now I think I will duck to let the fusillade launched this way go by unharmed. [emoji57]


----------



## GBNorman

https://www.thrillist.com/amphtml/news/nation/amtrak-acela-express-trains-upgrade

This article appeared on a Google news feed this morning. Who knows, maybe I'll get in a joyride before my "one way trip topside".

Now on seating configuration; riding backwards? Get used to it. If passengers are more interested in their "playthings" than the view, rotating seats are a hindrance to the power and USB connections.

I guess my first exposure to "ride backwards" was overseas during '60. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now. Where fixed seating is in place with the commuter agencies (that means most of 'em), it has always seemed to me that forward riding fills first.


----------



## railiner

I miss the days when commuter MU's had 'walkover' and later 'flipover' seats, everyone got to ride forwards back then....


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ThirdRail, I understand your point about reserving seats. Which that's not an issue. But there is one issue.. How will people know which way the trainset is going say 3 months before they board? e.g Which end the First Class Car is on. Heck no one know where the First Class car is until they board. Now if you're in the know about the Trainset rotation then you can somewhat predict which end it'll be on. But is this something that is being worked out?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three months in advance? You may not know which way the train is going to point 20 minutes before it is released from the yard. This is one of the main problems with assigned/pre-selected seating and is something that still plagues the seat assignment pilot. The rotations generally remain the same. However, when manipulations and service disruptions occur, the question was asked regarding what resources are available for pointing and are we willing to delay the train to satisfy the diagram. The answer was an emphatic NO.
> 
> So, it will ALWAYS have to the potential to be an issue.
Click to expand...

If the seating layout is "symmetrical", would it be possible for the assigned seats to be relative to the direction of travel? So if you chose the leftmost seat of the front row when you booked, regardless of what direction the train set itself is pointing, you would just be put in the leftmost seat of the front row when you board.


----------



## cocojacoby

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ThirdRail, I understand your point about reserving seats. Which that's not an issue. But there is one issue.. How will people know which way the trainset is going say 3 months before they board? e.g Which end the First Class Car is on. Heck no one know where the First Class car is until they board. Now if you're in the know about the Trainset rotation then you can somewhat predict which end it'll be on. But is this something that is being worked out?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three months in advance? You may not know which way the train is going to point 20 minutes before it is released from the yard. This is one of the main problems with assigned/pre-selected seating and is something that still plagues the seat assignment pilot. The rotations generally remain the same. However, when manipulations and service disruptions occur, the question was asked regarding what resources are available for pointing and are we willing to delay the train to satisfy the diagram. The answer was an emphatic NO.
> 
> So, it will ALWAYS have to the potential to be an issue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the seating layout is "symmetrical", would it be possible for the assigned seats to be relative to the direction of travel? So if you chose the leftmost seat of the front row when you booked, regardless of what direction the train set itself is pointing, you would just be put in the leftmost seat of the front row when you board.
Click to expand...

Well the pictures seem to show digital seat numbers, so that is a real possibility. But I do think that there will be 50% of the passengers that may be in for a big surprise not knowing the ropes of seat picking.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> If the seating layout is "symmetrical", would it be possible for the assigned seats to be relative to the direction of travel? So if you chose the leftmost seat of the front row when you booked, regardless of what direction the train set itself is pointing, you would just be put in the leftmost seat of the front row when you board.


That may work with some of the equipment but what happens if the you have programmed cars featuring 2x1 seating in a specific direction and the trains is backwards?

What happens if you took first class/sleepers/business class to be on a particular side of the train and the equipment is improperly pointed and now the person doesn't have their "ocean view?"

What happens if you selected first class because it is supposed to be in the rear of the train and you wanted to avoid the noise from the horn and engine. Now, you show up and it it is on the head end?

These are items that plagued the last seat selection process and they have run into these issues with the current pilot(gee, who didn't see that coming?). Some passengers have demanded refunds or reassignment.

It SHOULD be easier as long as the seat is uniform, but when you throw in tables (which may now be the first seat on the left since the train is backwards) and other variables, it can get challenging.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the seating layout is "symmetrical", would it be possible for the assigned seats to be relative to the direction of travel? So if you chose the leftmost seat of the front row when you booked, regardless of what direction the train set itself is pointing, you would just be put in the leftmost seat of the front row when you board.
> 
> 
> 
> That may work with some of the equipment but what happens if the you have programmed cars featuring 2x1 seating in a specific direction and the trains is backwards?
> 
> What happens if you took first class/sleepers/business class to be on a particular side of the train and the equipment is improperly pointed and now the person doesn't have their "ocean view?"
> 
> What happens if you selected first class because it is supposed to be in the rear of the train and you wanted to avoid the noise from the horn and engine. Now, you show up and it it is on the head end?
> 
> These are items that plagued the last seat selection process and they have run into these issues with the current pilot(gee, who didn't see that coming?). Some passengers have demanded refunds or reassignment.
> 
> It SHOULD be easier as long as the seat is uniform, but when you throw in tables (which may now be the first seat on the left since the train is backwards) and other variables, it can get challenging.
Click to expand...

Firstly, I'm thinking specifically about Acela right now, so I'm going to preclude sleepers from this, as well as the engine sound since Acela power cars are on both ends.

Now I'm not saying they should do this, but if in the first class car, the 2x1 seating switched in the middle, such that what was the single seat side turns into the two seat side facing the other way, the layout would always be the same, regardless of the direction the train is pointing. Therefore passengers would always end up in the spot they had wanted.


----------



## cocojacoby

jis said:


> As long as the rest of the world operates trains at upto 220mph with backward facing seats without any issue I just tend to see this repeated discussions/arguments as a peculiarly American pastime. The few that have genuine issues can be accommodated like they are elsewhere.
> 
> OK. Now I think I will duck to let the fusillade launched this way go by unharmed. [emoji57]


Obviously not true in Japan.


----------



## mfastx

Riding backwards sucks. I am susceptible to motion sickness and once had to ride backwards on a regional train in France, it really messed me up. Too bad, but hopefully they allow you to choose your seat like an airline to ensure you are facing forwards.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Now I'm not saying they should do this, but if in the first class car, the 2x1 seating switched in the middle, such that what was the single seat side turns into the two seat side facing the other way, the layout would always be the same, regardless of the direction the train is pointing. Therefore passengers would always end up in the spot they had wanted.


The layout may be the same but the side of the train you're sitting on will differ depending on the pointing. You'd be in the same seat, but that seat may not be on the side of the train you'd like. I can't speak for the rest of the country but I know this is a consideration on the Pennsylvanian, the Empire Service and the Boston line where some passengers want a certain view while others want to avoid the sun.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm not saying they should do this, but if in the first class car, the 2x1 seating switched in the middle, such that what was the single seat side turns into the two seat side facing the other way, the layout would always be the same, regardless of the direction the train is pointing. Therefore passengers would always end up in the spot they had wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> The layout may be the same but the side of the train you're sitting on will differ depending on the pointing. You'd be in the same seat, but that seat may not be on the side of the train you'd like. I can't speak for the rest of the country but I know this is a consideration on the Pennsylvanian, the Empire Service and the Boston line where some passengers want a certain view while others want to avoid the sun.
Click to expand...

Nope. You'd be on the same side. Here's what it would look like:


----------



## Thirdrail7

You're missing an important point. The diagram on the website must conform to the seat number on the train, which is (currently) fixed.

Using the diagram you made above, let's say the seats are numbered/lettered by row (like the current set.) Let's say that is car 3204.

When you board the train, car 3204 row 1/seat 1 is the blue seat is what you selected in your diagram., The red seat at the rear in the same direction of travel is row 12/seat 1.

The rows will not change by pointing.

So, if don't you loop or wye the train when it departs a terminal, row 12 will be at the front of the car. However, if you loop or wye the train, it will once again be in the rear...on the opposite side of the train. The reason you're not imagining this is because you're not considering things like bathrooms, handicapped seating, doors or tables being on a specific end. Your diagram just puts in an equal amount of seats where presumably, the row numbers can be changed at a whim. That may be an option but I'd think ti would remain fixed since ADA accessible seating has positioning and it would be difficult to nail down if you randomly changed row numbers.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> You're missing an important point. The diagram on the website must conform to the seat number on the train, which is (currently) fixed.
> 
> Using the diagram you made above, let's say the seats are numbered/lettered by row (like the current set.) Let's say that is car 3204.
> 
> When you board the train, car 3204 row 1/seat 1 is the blue seat is what you selected in your diagram., The red seat at the rear in the same direction of travel is row 12/seat 1.
> 
> The rows will not change by pointing.
> 
> So, if don't you loop or wye the train when it departs a terminal, row 12 will be at the front of the car. However, if you loop or wye the train, it will once again be in the rear...on the opposite side of the train. The reason you're not imagining this is because you're not considering things like bathrooms, handicapped seating, doors or tables being on a specific end. Your diagram just puts in an equal amount of seats where presumably, the row numbers can be changed at a whim. That may be an option but I'd think ti would remain fixed since ADA accessible seating has positioning and it would be difficult to nail down if you randomly changed row numbers.


Couldn't they have a little display or something that shows the seat number? Either way, that was to demonstrate that you can have a car with the same seating layout relative to the direction of travel, regardless of which way the train set is pointing.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Couldn't they have a little display or something that shows the seat number?


The current equipment has this. Even the regular equipment has seat/row numbers. I'm confident the new set will have something similar.



cpotisch said:


> Either way, that was to demonstrate that you can have a car with the same seating layout relative to the direction of travel, regardless of which way the train set is pointing.


Annd your demonstration failed. Let's try this one more time. Using your diagram above, let's take the picture on the right and say the blue seats are row one and that is the "A" end of the coach. Let's say the red sets are the "b" end of the coach and instead of a row of seats, You have a table with four seats surrounding it.

Under normal circumstances, the train will depart NY with this car on the head end of the train. So, the tables are at the rear of the coach. Seat two is a backwards facing seat, with an inland (garden) view. When you arrive in Boston, the train was scheduled to change direction in the station. So, when you depart, the tables would be at the front of the coach and seat 2 would be a forward facing seat, with an inland view. However, there is a problem and the wye the entire train. When you depart, the tables are once again at the rear of the coach and now seat 2 which would have normally been a forward facing seat on this leg is once again a backward facing seat. Additionally, you now are on the side with the shore view.

This is why there have been issues. and this is why Acela asked about pointing solutions.

If you still don't understand, take out a pen and paper and draw it out.....like I just had to do.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't they have a little display or something that shows the seat number?
> 
> 
> 
> The current equipment has this. Even the regular equipment has seat/row numbers. I'm confident the new set will have something similar.
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, that was to demonstrate that you can have a car with the same seating layout relative to the direction of travel, regardless of which way the train set is pointing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Annd your demonstration failed. Let's try this one more time. Using your diagram above, let's take the picture on the right and say the blue seats are row one and that is the "A" end of the coach. Let's say the red sets are the "b" end of the coach and instead of a row of seats, You have a table with four seats surrounding it.
> 
> Under normal circumstances, the train will depart NY with this car on the head end of the train. So, the tables are at the rear of the coach. Seat two is a backwards facing seat, with an inland (garden) view. When you arrive in Boston, the train was scheduled to change direction in the station. So, when you depart, the tables would be at the front of the coach and seat 2 would be a forward facing seat, with an inland view. However, there is a problem and the wye the entire train. When you depart, the tables are once again at the rear of the coach and now seat 2 which would have normally been a forward facing seat on this leg is once again a backward facing seat. Additionally, you now are on the side with the shore view.
> 
> This is why there have been issues. and this is why Acela asked about pointing solutions.
> 
> If you still don't understand, take out a pen and paper and draw it out.....like I just had to do.
Click to expand...

I see. So the main issue is that it has tables at one end and therefore it will be flipped around with a view of the opposite side. Hypothetical solution: Tables at both ends.

To put it another way, do you agree that if the layout is identical when flipped 180º, it will work in either direction, assuming that the seat numbers aren't assigned to specific physical seats? Not saying they should do this. I'm just asking if they did do this.


----------



## jis

I don’t think this is manageable unless you are able to have better control on train composition and orientation.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ThirdRail, I understand your point about reserving seats. Which that's not an issue. But there is one issue.. How will people know which way the trainset is going say 3 months before they board? e.g Which end the First Class Car is on. Heck no one know where the First Class car is until they board. Now if you're in the know about the Trainset rotation then you can somewhat predict which end it'll be on. But is this something that is being worked out?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three months in advance? You may not know which way the train is going to point 20 minutes before it is released from the yard. This is one of the main problems with assigned/pre-selected seating and is something that still plagues the seat assignment pilot.
> 
> So, it will ALWAYS have to the potential to be an issue.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point.



The pointing of the HST. Cause I'm going to assume FC will be only at one end like the current HST.

Let's say you reserve seat 4A and that is at a table on Train 2150 and you think the FC car is the last car of the train so you think you'll be facing forward. But FC ends up at the front and now your going backwards.

I just don't see this being without issues from Pax.


----------



## bretton88

Is it sad that in Turkey (a developing country), I can buy a ticket for their HST service a month in advance and know which direction and side of the train I am on but Amtrak can't guarantee tomorrow? Why have other countries mastered this but not Amtrak?


----------



## Acela150

bretton88 said:


> Is it sad that in Turkey (a developing country), I can buy a ticket for their HST service a month in advance and know which direction and side of the train I am on but Amtrak can't guarantee tomorrow? Why have other countries mastered this but not Amtrak?


Merica!! That’s why. [emoji53]


----------



## PVD

It isn't always as hard to do something as it is to decide you actually want to do it.


----------



## gatelouse

Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voila—seat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.


----------



## OBS

gatelouse said:


> Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voila—seat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.


Then you need a general manager in charge of electronic seat displays and a foreman to oversee the technician in charge of setting the displays as well as the technician person...way too costly....


----------



## Ryan

gatelouse said:


> Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voila—seat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.


In the example above with 2x1 seating, you’ve just changed the seat to a single to a double.


----------



## Ziv

So the article said that a prototype Avelia trainset would be available in 2019. Will it actually carry passengers alongside the existing Acelas or will it just do test runs with no revenue passengers? I imagine the latter, but the former would be cool to see. Who knows, maybe in 2020 you would be able to book a ride on the future of Amtrak, a year before the rest of the trainsets start to show up.

http://railcolornews.com/2018/08/09/us-amtrak-reveals-interior-design-of-its-future-alstom-avelia-trains/


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> gatelouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voila—seat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.
> 
> 
> 
> In the example above with 2x1 seating, you’ve just changed the seat to a single to a double.
Click to expand...

Nope. I don't want to argue on this one and I'm probably not properly articulating my point, but when it's rotated 180º, the layout is always the same. This means that you can always have the exact same seat, so long as they make sure the numbers are switched properly.

DISCLAIMER: Again, I'm not actually saying they should do this. This is just a hypothetical layout and an idea that physically could work, but probably wouldn't make practical sense.


----------



## cpotisch

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm not saying they should do this, but if in the first class car, the 2x1 seating switched in the middle, such that what was the single seat side turns into the two seat side facing the other way, the layout would always be the same, regardless of the direction the train is pointing. Therefore passengers would always end up in the spot they had wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> The layout may be the same but the side of the train you're sitting on will differ depending on the pointing. You'd be in the same seat, but that seat may not be on the side of the train you'd like. I can't speak for the rest of the country but I know this is a consideration on the Pennsylvanian, the Empire Service and the Boston line where some passengers want a certain view while others want to avoid the sun.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope. You'd be on the same side. Here's what it would look like:
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, the example on the left is showing where you would put a passenger in 1A when the train set is traveling with the blue seats first, and the example on the right is where 1A would be when the train is traveling with the red seats first. Either way, the seat is facing forwards in the front row, and is always a double. Once the train is there and ready to go, the seat numbers are assigned to the physical seats, and pax will end up facing the correct way in the correct seat on the correct side of the train.


----------



## Acela150

Ziv said:


> So the article said that a prototype Avelia trainset would be available in 2019. Will it actually carry passengers alongside the existing Acelas or will it just do test runs with no revenue passengers? I imagine the latter, but the former would be cool to see. Who knows, maybe in 2020 you would be able to book a ride on the future of Amtrak, a year before the rest of the trainsets start to show up.
> 
> http://railcolornews.com/2018/08/09/us-amtrak-reveals-interior-design-of-its-future-alstom-avelia-trains/


The prototype HST will goto TTCI which is the FRA testing center in Pueblo, Colorado. It’ll then make its way to the NEC for testing. I would expect that process to be about a year to a year and a half. When the original HST was released in 2000 they had a TS open for public display at 30th Street one night I believe in May. I’ll have to double check that. I don’t know if they’ll do that again this time. But one hopes that Amtrak does such a thing.

I believe that they were quoting the arrival of the first TS for First Quarter of 2019. But! The OIG report has it listed as December of 2019. As we saw with the ACS-64 order things can go ahead of the projected timeline. And considering that Alstom is an experienced builder I would hope for the same results. And yet again, but! Alstom is approximately 3 months behind due to an issue with the FRA requirements of crumple zones. But 3 months is peanuts and I believe can be made up.


----------



## west point

It may be that internal company milestone schedules and public ones are different to protect for unforeseen problems ? ? Look how Siemens has been able to = or beat timetable milestones. ?


----------



## MARC Rider

You all are aware that rear facing seats are safer in the event of a collision?

There's a reason why they require rear facing car seats for infants. And I believe many miltary transport planes have rear facing seats.


----------



## Ziv

I don't generally ride the NEC, but if people were allowed to pay to ride on the test set before the other Avelia's arrived, I would be tempted to take a trip to NYC from WAS. Ain't going to happen, but it is fun to contemplate.

Given that 20 Acela's trainsets have around 6080 seats and 28 Avelia's have around 11,300 seats, it seems like ridership should rise while prices may stay the same and maybe there will be low bucket fares occasionally? Does that happen on Acela now?

Is it just a rookies wishful thinking or could this really improve the NEC revenue stream, and allow Amtrak to thrive, even if the federal contribution drops a bit? I would really like to see more departure times on existing routes. A second daily Empire Builder is high on my wish list. It seems like the solution to a lot of Amtrak's woes is more Amtrak. I doubt Burlington Northern would agree with me on that though.



Acela150 said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the article said that a prototype Avelia trainset would be available in 2019. Will it actually carry passengers alongside the existing Acelas or will it just do test runs with no revenue passengers? I imagine the latter, but the former would be cool to see. Who knows, maybe in 2020 you would be able to book a ride on the future of Amtrak, a year before the rest of the trainsets start to show up.
> 
> http://railcolornews.com/2018/08/09/us-amtrak-reveals-interior-design-of-its-future-alstom-avelia-trains/
> 
> 
> 
> The prototype HST will goto TTCI which is the FRA testing center in Pueblo, Colorado. It’ll then make its way to the NEC for testing. I would expect that process to be about a year to a year and a half. When the original HST was released in 2000 they had a TS open for public display at 30th Street one night I believe in May. I’ll have to double check that. I don’t know if they’ll do that again this time. But one hopes that Amtrak does such a thing.
> 
> I believe that they were quoting the arrival of the first TS for First Quarter of 2019. But! The OIG report has it listed as December of 2019. As we saw with the ACS-64 order things can go ahead of the projected timeline. And considering that Alstom is an experienced builder I would hope for the same results. And yet again, but! Alstom is approximately 3 months behind due to an issue with the FRA requirements of crumple zones. But 3 months is peanuts and I believe can be made up.
Click to expand...


----------



## GBNorman

Ziv said:


> So the article said that a prototype Avelia trainset would be available in 2019.


 http://railcolornews.com/2018/08/09/us-amtrak-reveals-interior-design-of-its-future-alstom-avelia-trains

There will be a push to have 'em in revenue service in time for the inauguration of the 46th POTUS (date of such left for your speculation).

Now regarding colors, European railroads certainly have become a "splash" of such. "When I first went over...(1960), you could have a train any color you want so long as it was flat Red, Blue, or Green." I think we all know what was the color of the "puffer up front".

The only exception was the Sleeping Cars of the CIWL, or Wagon-Lits, operated throughout the Continent. Those were a deep "Royal Blue" with Maize lettering and a metal Herald placed center car.


----------



## PRR 60

Cautionary note: Alstom is the contractor for the refurbishing of 120 transit cars for PATCO (Southern New Jersey - Philadelphia). The work was awarded in February 2011 and was expected to take five years. It's still not completed.


----------



## cpotisch

MARC Rider said:


> You all are aware that rear facing seats are safer in the event of a collision?
> 
> There's a reason why they require rear facing car seats for infants. And I believe many miltary transport planes have rear facing seats.


I think more people are going to be thinking about a comfortable ride than what would be theoretically safer in the event of a collision. Trains don't crash often and I don't think Acela ever has.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I did hear riding backwards was safer, but not til I was on my light rail and we stopped suddenly. I was facing backwards, and the person next to me mentioned that it was a good thing we were riding backwards and why. So I ride backwards on commuter rail now when possible, not so much because of a dreadful accident, but more to avoid my head snapping forward into air instead of back against the seat cushion.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I did hear riding backwards was safer, but not til I was on my light rail and we stopped suddenly. I was facing backwards, and the person next to me mentioned that it was a good thing we were riding backwards and why. So I ride backwards on commuter rail now when possible, not so much because of a dreadful accident, but more to avoid my head snapping forward into air instead of back against the seat cushion.


Aka " The JFK Assination Theory" as to why his head went backwards from a "Magic" shot from the Behind from the Texas Book Depisitory!( Cue the Beatles singing "..they blew his mind out in a car..")
Actually the "Kill shots" came from the "Grassy Knoll" and other places, but in this age of Conspiracy theories run amok, its gotten lost in the World of Wild Imaginings and Kooky Ideas on the Net and Hate Radio!


----------



## Ziv

Bob, a 7mm, 150 grain bullet doesn't cause a head to move forward all that much as it penetrates a skull from behind. But when it and the bones and brains exit the front of the skull, a great deal of the energy imparted upon the skull will make it snap backwards. Sorry if your post was meant sarcastically. ;-)


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ziv said:


> Sorry if your post was meant sarcastically. ;-)


This!( in RE those who doubt Science and make Moronic comments such as "..I'm not a Scientist, but/so..."


----------



## Acela150

PRR 60 said:


> Cautionary note: Alstom is the contractor for the refurbishing of 120 transit cars for PATCO (Southern New Jersey - Philadelphia). The work was awarded in February 2011 and was expected to take five years. It's still not completed.


Bill, while you are 100% correct about the Patco contract. They had major problems with the overhauls at first because the original Budd cars were not meant to be overhauled to what they are now. That is what the major hold up was.

If they were building the cars from scratch it would be a different story. YMMV.


----------



## Acela150

Also of note Amtrak has posted the released images of the new HST on their Instagram story.


----------



## cocojacoby

MARC Rider said:


> You all are aware that rear facing seats are safer in the event of a collision?
> 
> There's a reason why they require rear facing car seats for infants. And I believe many miltary transport planes have rear facing seats.


Really? You are assuming a lot here.

How about this scenario? Your train breaks down and stops. You are hit from behind by the next speeding Acela. How safer are you now?


----------



## Alexandria Nick

cpotisch said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> You all are aware that rear facing seats are safer in the event of a collision?
> 
> There's a reason why they require rear facing car seats for infants. And I believe many miltary transport planes have rear facing seats.
> 
> 
> 
> I think more people are going to be thinking about a comfortable ride than what would be theoretically safer in the event of a collision. Trains don't crash often and I don't think Acela ever has.
Click to expand...

Not even a collision, any rapid deceleration is safer than way.


----------



## Acela150

cocojacoby said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> You all are aware that rear facing seats are safer in the event of a collision?
> 
> There's a reason why they require rear facing car seats for infants. And I believe many miltary transport planes have rear facing seats.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? You are assuming a lot here.How about this scenario? Your train breaks down and stops. You are hit from behind by the next speeding Acela. How safer are you now?
Click to expand...

Which won’t happen unless a signal is displaying a clear block and the PTC fails. [emoji6] In a case like this the train would be moving at Restricted Speed. A speed in which the engineer can stop with in half the distance of his or her vision.


----------



## cpotisch

Alexandria Nick said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> You all are aware that rear facing seats are safer in the event of a collision?
> 
> There's a reason why they require rear facing car seats for infants. And I believe many miltary transport planes have rear facing seats.
> 
> 
> 
> I think more people are going to be thinking about a comfortable ride than what would be theoretically safer in the event of a collision. Trains don't crash often and I don't think Acela ever has.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not even a collision, any rapid deceleration is safer than way.
Click to expand...

Either way, for better or for worse, people will think more about comfort than how safe they'll be if something like that happens.


----------



## jis

That is why people's misplaced emphasis on comfort should be ignored when appropriate.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> That is why people's misplaced emphasis on comfort should be ignored when appropriate.


It works both ways though. The need for "comfortable" power outlet access seems to be one of the primary factors resulting in backward facing seats. People don't sit backwards on planes or buses either so why are trains uniquely incapable of forward facing travel? Did Amtrak perform any research to determine if access to an in-seat power outlet would mostly trump the desire to face forward?


----------



## jis

I am sure they didn't research such things. The RFP asked the vendor to propose something that fit the requirements placed in the RFP. Among the requirements there was nothing saying forward, backward or anyward facingness of seats. So Alstom basically proposed what they have in TGVs, since that is the cheapest for them to put together. Simple as that.

this business about power outlets etc. etc. is something that was dreamed up in the echo chamber here and no one has otherwise validated it from any credible source as far as I know.

BTW, there are planes where people face backwards. I have had seats facing backwards in Business Class on a few airlines.

Now you could choose to beat me about all these seemingly unfair behavior among all. But I am just explaining how these things work in real life.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> I am sure they didn't research such things. The RFP asked the vendor to propose something that fit the requirements placed in the RFP. Among the requirements there was nothing saying forward, backward or anyward facingness of seats. So Alstom basically proposed what they have in TGVs, since that is the cheapest for them to put together. Simple as that.
> 
> this business about power outlets etc. etc. is something that was dreamed up in the echo chamber here and no one has otherwise validated it from any credible source as far as I know.


Actually, this couldn't be further from the truth. Amtrak created a test coach with various types of seats and tables. It was shipped to various locations/terminals from Richmond to Boston (excluding New York since they didn't have the track space to handle the car). Employees, members of the Passenger Advisory Committee and other selected passengers in the various cities were invited to tour the car and were asked to list what they liked about each seat, each design and what the didn't like about each design.

The "business" about the power outlets is an actual issue for a few of the seats, including the one that I believe was ultimately selected. If they went with the particular design, the seats would have to remain fixed since the electrical ports were between the seats. It was one of things I didn't like about the design. Additionally, the seats styles were originally going to be a part of an Amfleet overhaul. I doubt that will be the case.

Whether you consider me credible is up to you but it definitely wasn't "dreamed up" by an echo chamber on this board.


----------



## jis

Well at least it did provoke a credible response. [emoji6]Thanks for the info.



> The "business" about the power outlets is an actual issue for a few of the seats, including the one that I believe was ultimately selected. If they went with the particular design, the seats would have to remain fixed since the electrical ports were between the seats. It was one of things I didn't like about the design.


In general a turnable seat will always be one more moving part to maintain, power or not. It is possible that originally the Europeans moved away from turnable seats for that reason. The fact that it happened first on suburban and short distance service before trickling into premium service suggest that just the cost of maintenance was probably an issue.

I remember NJT at one point tried to tie down its flippable seats which caused the riders to rise in protest reversing that decision. So when they ordered the Multilevels, they simply got rid of the problem once and for all.



> Additionally, the seats styles were originally going to be a part of an Amfleet overhaul. I doubt that will be the case.


Though the results of the studies could still be used, in case Amtrak should choose to create yet another seat type inventory different from the Midwest and California seats. Though there is an excuse to do so since those seats are for short/medium distance service, whereas an Amfleet II/Superliner replacement program would be for long distance service. Already the seats differ between the two.

Speaking of seats, (apropos discussion in another thread) is there any chance that Amtrak would remotely even give an askance look at lie flat bed seats. I know it is a huge upfront cost and considerably greater ongoing maintenance cost.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I usually give great creditability to posts from jis, so inside info from where "the rubber meets the road" by Thirdrail is appreciated, as jis said!


----------



## PerRock

Acela150 said:


> Also of note Amtrak has posted the released images of the new HST on their Instagram story.


They have? I don't see it?

https://www.instagram.com/amtrak/?hl=en

peter


----------



## NSC1109

PerRock said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also of note Amtrak has posted the released images of the new HST on their Instagram story.
> 
> 
> 
> They have? I don't see it?
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/amtrak/?hl=en
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

Clicked on their profile photo to see the story, it was the first thing to come up. I saw the rest of the photos yesterday, there are only two up today. They only last for 24 hours.


----------



## jis

All the photos were originally posted by Amtrak here:

https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/nextgentraininteriors/


----------



## Acela150

I'm not sure how many browse Railroad.net, but quite a few members are absolutely persistent that the new HST's will be the same length as the current HST. Which doesn't seem likely as they are adding two cars and expanding the capacity. Some are also saying that the cars will not be the standard 85 foot car.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> I'm not sure how many browse Railroad.net, but quite a few members are absolutely persistent that the new HST's will be the same length as the current HST. Which doesn't seem likely as they are adding two cars and expanding the capacity. Some are also saying that the cars will not be the standard 85 foot car.


The latter is definitely true. They will be TGV length cars. 85 footers don't work very well with Jacobs Bogies used for articulation with their wider overhang in the middle in curves.

A quick back of the envelope calculation suggests that a 200m (known length of the new trains) long consist with 11 equal length units would give a per unit length of the cars (9) and power car (2) units to be around 18.2m ( ~60'). So the length of individual cars would be in that ball park. That sounds about right for a TGV/AGV articulated using Jacobs Bogies

As a matter of fact there will be nothing standard about those cars or the trucks that they ride on as far as what one sees in the US is concerned. But the ride will be smoother and quieter than anything in the US too.

So yeah, they are more or less correct


----------



## DSS&A

First Avelia carshell has been completed.

https://www.railjournal.com/regions/north-america/first-amtrak-avelia-bodyshell-completed


----------



## GBNorman

jis said:


> BTW, there are planes where people face backwards. I have had seats facing backwards in Business Class on a few airlines.


From a review of Seatguru, United and British Airways seem to be the "offenders".
Why, in exchange for paying some 4X the Coach fare, a passenger must be facing Aft, escapes me.

On my flights to EDDM/MUC on the way to Salzburg, I've always selected 6A on a United 77Q. They do not sell 6B as it there for Officers on break, and if something in First is open, that is where they camp out leaving 6B open.

Now one year I went,'15, they substituted a 763 and my 6A was (ugh) Aft facing - not a happy camper!

Oh well, whenever United moves forth with reconfiguring their existing 772 fleet to the W (Polaris) configuration, all should be well, as those pods all face forward.

Meanwhile, back on the rails over here, whenever I've been on any fixed seating railcar, it's always "sport" to watch how the forward riding seats fill first. I only hope that for their premium "best foot forward" product that will be around to mid-century, Amtrak and their consultants have not made a serious marketing blunder that would be quite difficult to correct.


----------



## jis

While this thread has nothing to do with airline seating as such, the 21 ex-Con 777-200ERs that United has are all front facing lie flat Business-First seats. It is only the ex-United 777s that had the back facing lie flat Business Class seats, which irrespective of forward or backward facing are a cramped abominations anyway. Similarly the ex-Con 767s and 757s have the lie flat BF seats, all forward facing. The ex-United 767s that have not been converted yet, have those horrible United BC lie-flats.

Coming back to trains, I have never heard of a train on a busy corridor not selling out because it has backward facing seats. So I think the whole issue viz-a-viz "marketing blunder " is just a red herring.


----------



## cpotisch

DSS&A said:


> First Avelia carshell has been completed.
> 
> https://www.railjournal.com/regions/north-america/first-amtrak-avelia-bodyshell-completed


Finally!


----------



## Acela150

DSS&A said:


> First Avelia carshell has been completed.
> 
> https://www.railjournal.com/regions/north-america/first-amtrak-avelia-bodyshell-completed


And a picture to boot!


----------



## daybeers

Acela150 said:


> DSS&A said:
> 
> 
> 
> First Avelia carshell has been completed.
> 
> https://www.railjournal.com/regions/north-america/first-amtrak-avelia-bodyshell-completed
> 
> 
> 
> And a picture to boot!
Click to expand...

Is this sarcasm because I personally see nothing on the page except for the navigation menus at the top and bottom but no actual article or picture.


----------



## cpotisch

What's that picture at the top of the page of? It doesn't look like a train car. Some sort of machinery?


----------



## keelhauled

daybeers said:


> Is this sarcasm because I personally see nothing on the page except for the navigation menus at the top and bottom but no actual article or picture.


They redid their website last week or so. It does exactly what you describe for me in Firefox, but works in Edge. Therefore I no longer regularly read Rail Journal. Alstom's press release has the same picture.


----------



## Acela150

daybeers said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSS&A said:
> 
> 
> 
> First Avelia carshell has been completed.
> 
> https://www.railjournal.com/regions/north-america/first-amtrak-avelia-bodyshell-completed
> 
> 
> 
> And a picture to boot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is this sarcasm because I personally see nothing on the page except for the navigation menus at the top and bottom but no actual article or picture.
Click to expand...

No. There is a picture of the shell at the top of the article.


----------



## Acela150

cpotisch said:


> What's that picture at the top of the page of? It doesn't look like a train car. Some sort of machinery?





keelhauled said:


> daybeers said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this sarcasm because I personally see nothing on the page except for the navigation menus at the top and bottom but no actual article or picture.
> 
> 
> 
> They redid their website last week or so. It does exactly what you describe for me in Firefox, but works in Edge. Therefore I no longer regularly read Rail Journal. Alstom's press release has the same picture.
Click to expand...

That's actually better then what IRJ has.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I see it now (with all the people standing in front of it?), but at first glance it really does look like a bit white bulletin board with a door--it's not obvious til you look more closely.

I googled Avelia Liberty to look at the actual shell, and I'm sorry to say I think it looks like a giant caterpillar with large, spooky eyes. Plus a picture of Chris Christie popped up on one of the photos while I was searching (he is still getting into everything, apparently!



)


----------



## Acela150

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I see it now (with all the people standing in front of it?), but at first glance it really does look like a bit white bulletin board with a door--it's not obvious til you look more closely.


Yes, that's it! It's Keep in mind the renderings and what they show. A big Acela logo will be on that white background.

Personally I have mixed feelings about the white background. Simply cause I'm used to the steel car body of the current fleet.


----------



## CraigDK

I was surprised when I saw that it was manufactured in Michigan. I thought in the various buy American waivers that where requested, the shells (along with certain other specific components) where to be made in France and shipped to New York for final assembly. Either my memory is wrong or maybe that was the coach shells.


----------



## bretton88

CraigDK said:


> I was surprised when I saw that it was manufactured in Michigan. I thought in the various buy American waivers that where requested, the shells (along with certain other specific components) where to be made in France and shipped to New York for final assembly. Either my memory is wrong or maybe that was the coach shells.


The prototype for testing is being made in France. The rest is domestic.


----------



## Acela150

bretton88 said:


> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was surprised when I saw that it was manufactured in Michigan. I thought in the various buy American waivers that where requested, the shells (along with certain other specific components) where to be made in France and shipped to New York for final assembly. Either my memory is wrong or maybe that was the coach shells.
> 
> 
> 
> The prototype for testing is being made in France. The rest is domestic.
Click to expand...

I believe two trainsets are being built overseas under an FRA Buy America Wavier. One would head to TTCI in Pueblo, CO and the other the NEC when TTCI gives the "OK" for NEC testing.


----------



## CraigDK

Acela150 said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was surprised when I saw that it was manufactured in Michigan. I thought in the various buy American waivers that where requested, the shells (along with certain other specific components) where to be made in France and shipped to New York for final assembly. Either my memory is wrong or maybe that was the coach shells.
> 
> 
> 
> The prototype for testing is being made in France. The rest is domestic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe two trainsets are being built overseas under an FRA Buy America Wavier. One would head to TTCI in Pueblo, CO and the other the NEC when TTCI gives the "OK" for NEC testing.
Click to expand...

That sounds familiar too, but wouldn't it make sense to have seen those shells first?


----------



## Acela150

CraigDK said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was surprised when I saw that it was manufactured in Michigan. I thought in the various buy American waivers that where requested, the shells (along with certain other specific components) where to be made in France and shipped to New York for final assembly. Either my memory is wrong or maybe that was the coach shells.
> 
> 
> 
> The prototype for testing is being made in France. The rest is domestic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe two trainsets are being built overseas under an FRA Buy America Wavier. One would head to TTCI in Pueblo, CO and the other the NEC when TTCI gives the "OK" for NEC testing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That sounds familiar too, but wouldn't it make sense to have seen those shells first?
Click to expand...

Yes but, since they aren't american built that's the most likely reason we haven't seen anything. Not to mention I think it would be bad press for Amtrak even though they have the waiver.


----------



## bretton88

Acela150 said:


> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was surprised when I saw that it was manufactured in Michigan. I thought in the various buy American waivers that where requested, the shells (along with certain other specific components) where to be made in France and shipped to New York for final assembly. Either my memory is wrong or maybe that was the coach shells.
> 
> 
> 
> The prototype for testing is being made in France. The rest is domestic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe two trainsets are being built overseas under an FRA Buy America Wavier. One would head to TTCI in Pueblo, CO and the other the NEC when TTCI gives the "OK" for NEC testing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That sounds familiar too, but wouldn't it make sense to have seen those shells first?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes but, since they aren't american built that's the most likely reason we haven't seen anything. Not to mention I think it would be bad press for Amtrak even though they have the waiver.
Click to expand...

Idk, other agencies have shown their prototypes that where made overseas. I.e. the mbta showing off the first test car for the red line, even though it was made in China.


----------



## PVD

It looks like this was at/by the US subcontractor not Amtrak.


----------



## Acela150

PVD said:


> It looks like this was at/by the US subcontractor not Amtrak.


Correct.


----------



## NTL1991

OBS said:


> gatelouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voilaseat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you need a general manager in charge of electronic seat displays and a foreman to oversee the technician in charge of setting the displays as well as the technician person...way too costly....
Click to expand...

I can see it already... Dont forget that the technicians will also need to be fluent in French to operate the proprietary Alstom software that was never translated to English and is wholly incompatible with anything Amtrak currently uses. And those laptops to program the assignments? Well be keeping them alive with secondhand eBay parts for the next 20 years because the software wont run on anything but Windows 7. Its the Amtrak way!


----------



## Acela150

WE'RE MAKING HUGE PROGRESS!!!

Photo from June.




Photo credit to Silk Road Transport's Facebook.


----------



## Pere Flyer

Glad to see the good people of Alma welding, adhering, and screwing this project together. Avelia Liberty’s, Michigan Made!


----------



## Acela150

Pere Flyer said:


> Glad to see the good people of Alma welding, adhering, and screwing this project together. Avelia Liberty’s, Michigan Made!


This particular shell came from Alstom’s factory in Italy. As part of the waiver.


----------



## Pere Flyer

Acela150 said:


> Pere Flyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to see the good people of Alma welding, adhering, and screwing this project together. Avelia Liberty’s, Michigan Made!
> 
> 
> 
> This particular shell came from Alstom’s factory in Italy. As part of the waiver.
Click to expand...

I wasn’t clear. I was responding to post No. 129 with the Rail Journal article. Apologies for the confusion.


----------



## DSS&A

Alstom continues to construct improvements to its Hornell NY factories including making progress building the new HSR test track. 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.eveningtribune.com/news/20180902/alstom-bridge-to-future%3ftemplate=ampart#ampf=undefined

Alstom is now employing around 1,000 people at Hornell.

Phttps://www.google.com/amp/www.eveningtribune.com/news/20181008/strongalstom-expands-talent-developmentstrong%3ftemplate=ampart


----------



## PerRock

A picture of the new Acela 21 (as it's apparently called now) doing compression testing from the NGEC meeting:

http://americantrainz.com/personal/New-US-Trains/Acela 21 testing.jpg

peter


----------



## cpotisch

PerRock said:


> A picture of the new Acela 21 (as it's apparently called now) doing compression testing from the NGEC meeting:
> 
> http://americantrainz.com/personal/New-US-Trains/Acela 21 testing.jpg
> 
> peter


Thank God they ditched the utterly horrific name “Avelia Liberty”.  h34r:


----------



## cirdan

DSS&A said:


> Alstom is now employing around 1,000 people at Hornell.
> 
> Phttps://www.google.com/amp/www.eveningtribune.com/news/20181008/strongalstom-expands-talent-developmentstrong%3ftemplate=ampart


quote

_ The finished product will carry trains traveling upwards of 200 miles an hour past Alstom's manufacturing facility in Hornell in just a matter of months_

That plant must simply be yuuuge if it takes a train months to pass it by while doing 200 mph.


----------



## cpotisch

Won’t these max out at 160?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Won’t these max out at 160?


They will be capable of 186mph if tracks to support such were available. They can be tweaked to upto 200 with a little work. As such they are unlikely to operate on the NEC above 160 for the foreseeable future.


----------



## cpotisch

Thanks. I still feel like the statement “trains﻿ traveling upwards of 200 miles an hou﻿r” is warping the truth a bit. I mean, what even would the point be in them “tweaking” them enough to bring it up to 200, if they won’t be exceeding 160 in service anytime soon?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Thanks. I still feel like the statement “trains traveling upwards of 200 miles an hour” is warping the truth a bit. I mean, what even would the point be in them “tweaking” them enough to bring it up to 200, if they won’t be exceeding 160 in service anytime soon?


US at present does not appear to have the capability to effectively test a train at "upward of 200 mph". There is no established practice. There is upgraded documents that define a new class of trains, and basically requires a case by case evaluation of the entire train/track/traction etc.. AFAIK only EU, Japan and China are actually capable of off the shelf testing and certifying such a beast but of course to their established practices and standards, not the theoretical US ones. So it is pure feel good BS.


----------



## dlagrua

Talk about the new Acela speed. In the 1960's The New York Central RR built an experimental train called "The Black Beetle" The Black Beetle ran a series of time trials over existing tracks running between Butler, Indiana and Stryker, Ohio. The long, straight, and level stretch of railway provided an ideal testing area for the train. During its trial runs, the Black Beetle hit an astounding 183.681 mph, which still stands as the high speed record for self-propelled light rail in the United States. 

*https://youtu.be/w8ZIJFlU_pA*

If a train went that fast in the 1960's ,track technology  must be there to take speeds like that 50-+ years later


----------



## cpotisch

dlagrua said:


> Talk about the new Acela speed. In the 1960's The New York Central RR built an experimental train called "The Black Beetle" The Black Beetle ran a series of time trials over existing tracks running between Butler, Indiana and Stryker, Ohio. The long, straight, and level stretch of railway provided an ideal testing area for the train. During its trial runs, the Black Beetle hit an astounding 183.681 mph, which still stands as the high speed record for self-propelled light rail in the United States.
> 
> *https://youtu.be/w8ZIJFlU_pA*
> 
> If a train went that fast in the 1960's ,track technology  must be there to take speeds like that 50-+ years later


Yeah, and it was ******* jet powered. Does that seem like a reasonable standard for full size passenger trains?


----------



## Acela150

cpotisch said:


> Thank God they ditched the utterly horrific name “Avelia Liberty”.  h34r:


Keep in mind the name "Avelia Liberty" is the product name that Alstom came up with. The Amtrak name is Acela.   



jis said:


> They will be capable of 186mph if tracks to support such were available. They can be tweaked to upto 200 with a little work. As such they are unlikely to operate on the NEC above 160 for the foreseeable future.


It'll also be interesting to see how long it'll take Amtrak to upgrade track speed from 150 to 160. But that is a bigger task then meets the eye.


----------



## cpotisch

Acela150 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank God they ditched the utterly horrific name “Avelia Liberty”.  h34r:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind the name "Avelia Liberty" is the product name that Alstom came up with. The Amtrak name is Acela.
Click to expand...

I know that. I'm still glad I won't be hearing these train sets referred to by such a ghastly name.


----------



## Amtrak706

Acela150 said:


> It'll also be interesting to see how long it'll take Amtrak to upgrade track speed from 150 to 160. But that is a bigger task then meets the eye.


Oh that's already a lost cause. They bungled the "upgrade" between County and Ham so badly that there will be basically no speed upgrades. Not to mention that the FRA has still not responded about upping Tier II crash standards to 160mph from 150.


----------



## Ryan

dlagrua said:


> The long, straight, and level stretch of railway


Hey, two out of three for the NEC isn't bad!!!


----------



## Acela150

Amtrak706 said:


> Oh that's already a lost cause. They bungled the "upgrade" between County and Ham so badly that there will be basically no speed upgrades. Not to mention that the FRA has still not responded about upping Tier II crash standards to 160mph from 150.


Not as much of a lost cause as you'd think. The signaling was upgraded to Rule 562 meaning Cab Signals only between interlockings and Tracks 1, 3, and 4 have the upgraded overhead. I believe they will be working on Track 2 this year. Yes the project was completely botched, but things are still progressing with it. 

Keep in mind that the trackage and overhead on the Shoreline is already capable for 160 mph running. And that's a total of about 35 miles. 



Ryan said:


> Hey, two out of three for the NEC isn't bad!!!


I do have to agree with you here.


----------



## Amtrak706

Acela150 said:


> Keep in mind that the trackage and overhead on the Shoreline is already capable for 160 mph running. And that's a total of about 35 miles.


The problem is that the FRA specs don’t line up with each other on this. The track is Class 8 which allows 160, but the Tier II crashworthiness standards that are required for >125mph running on non-exclusive track (this standard was basically made just for the Acela) only allow 150. Amtrak submitted a request to raise this to 160 a few years back, but the FRA response has not been made public. It was also submitted only a few weeks before the Philly wreck in 2015, so the ensuing string of wrecks immediately followed by the unnecessary management-induced existential crisis at the company may have put a damper on things.


----------



## jis

Also the original Tier II standard has been modified in the overhaul of those standards to allow CEM, supposedly. That is what makes a more or less off the shelf TGV with some tweaks acceptable, which was not back in the Acela days. Tier II in its original form was written by what amounted to a bunch of rank amateurs when it came to doing any high speed standards. The question is, has FRA managed to hire enough 21st century engineers or is it still pushing 1950 vintage stuff upscaled or is it now actually upto speed to handle anything above 125mph reasonably.

Frankly, the American federal transportation regulation agencies which used to be envy of the world, are collectively not having a very good time these days.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> Also the original Tier II standard has been modified in the overhaul of those standards to allow CEM, supposedly. That is what makes a more or less of the shelf TGV with some tweaks acceptable, which was not back in the Acela days. Tier II in its original form was written by what amounts to a bunch of rank amateurs when it come to doing any high speed standards. The question is, has FRA managed to hire enough 21st century engineers or is it still pushing 1950 vintage stuff upscaled or is it now actually upto speed to handle anything above 125mph reasonably.
> Frankly, the American fedral transportation regulation agencies which used to be an envy of the world, are collectively not having a very good time these days.


Tier 2 Alternate compliance is acceptable for above 125, so we can essentially buy European units now. With that comes Amtrak being able to upgrade the mas from 150 to 160 on all appropriate sections (i.e. the catenary still has to support it and the track has to be the appropriate class). I'm not sure how much track that applies to, but I've heard it's not insignificant.


----------



## jis

bretton88 said:


> Tier 2 Alternate compliance is acceptable for above 125, so we can essentially buy European units now. With that comes Amtrak being able to upgrade the mas from 150 to 160 on all appropriate sections (i.e. the catenary still has to support it and the track has to be the appropriate class). I'm not sure how much track that applies to, but I've heard it's not insignificant.


Could you point me to the CFR revision section where this "Tier 2 Alternative" is specified by FRA? Did you simply mean Tier III by that phrase?

The reason I ask is, I looked carefully through all of 49 CFR Parts 229, 231, 236, and 238 [Docket No. FRA–2013–0060, Notice No. 3] RIN 2130–AC46 Passenger Equipment Safety Standards; Standards for Alternative Compliance and High-Speed Trainsets (Final Rule November 21, 2018) and could not find that phrase anywhere. 

It would appear that a Tier III compliant equipment could possibly be certified to run mixed with legacy Tier II equipment under special waiver at above 125mph, like many other things could be acceptable under special waiver. But there is no Tier II Alternative standard as such. That is actually reasonable since the current Acelas would probably be the last of a breed, and one way to fix this issue would be to simply restrict the current Acela sets to run at 125mph or less to allow the Tier III trains to operate at above 125mph on the NEC. This would imply that initially the new Acelas would be restricted to 125mph, until there are enough of them around so that either the old Acelas can be downgraded to 125mph schedules allowing the Alstom sets to run at 160mph, or (and of course eventually the plan is to) completely withdraw the old Acelas.

Does my understanding make sense? Or what am I missing?

BTW, the 160mph for Tier II is part of this rule making, but it also requires special approval for allowing existing Tier II equipment cleared for 150mph to undergo additional testing and certification for 160mph.


----------



## MARC Rider

Frankly, I think there would be a lot more benefit if they could get Metro North to upgrade the maximum speed between New Rochelle and New Haven to 80 mph rather than worrying about 160 mph vs. 150 mph. On my recent Acela trip, we were mostly going ~40-50 mph through that section, occasionally speeding up to 70 mph on short stretches. The cars on the paralleling I-95 were definitely going faster, even when they were jammed up. I'll bet if you could upgrade that section, you might shave 30 minutes off the NYP-BOS times.


----------



## Amtrak706

*Edit: I am wrong, Tier II actually was upped to 160 in November. https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...tive-compliance-and-high-speed-trainsets#h-81

Tier II has been modified to allow more European designs with CEM systems like Acela II, that is what "Tier II Alternative" refers to. It is not the same thing as Tier III, which is was created to allow future high speed rail using stock European or Japanese/Chinese trainsets, but only on track not shared by any conventional equipment.

Tier II Alternative did not change the top speed which remains 150 mph. As I said, Amtrak's waiver request four years ago was the only movement on this, and there has been nothing since. Acela II will top out at 150 mph on the corridor even though the track is rated for 160 mph, and will continue to do so until Tier II is ever possibly changed to match the track class speed of 160.


----------



## Amtrak706

MARC Rider said:


> Frankly, I think there would be a lot more benefit if they could get Metro North to upgrade the maximum speed between New Rochelle and New Haven to 80 mph rather than worrying about 160 mph vs. 150 mph. On my recent Acela trip, we were mostly going ~40-50 mph through that section, occasionally speeding up to 70 mph on short stretches. The cars on the paralleling I-95 were definitely going faster, even when they were jammed up. I'll bet if you could upgrade that section, you might shave 30 minutes off the NYP-BOS times.


The whole point of the 150 to 160 upgrade is that it requires no work besides updating ACSES. The track, catenary, and rolling stock is already capable, it's just one single regulation that doesn't match up with the others that needs to be changed.

Realigning or bypassing the old New Haven would definitely make a big difference, but it would be extremely expensive, politically difficult, and probably impossible for Amtrak to do it without making a big mess like they did with the NJ upgrade.


----------



## jis

Amtrak706 said:


> Tier II has been modified to allow more European designs with CEM systems like Acela II, that is what "Tier II Alternative" refers to. It is not the same thing as Tier III, which is was created to allow future high speed rail using stock European or Japanese/Chinese trainsets, but only on track not shared by any conventional equipment.
> 
> Tier II Alternative did not change the top speed which remains 150 mph. As I said, Amtrak's waiver request four years ago was the only movement on this, and there has been nothing since. Acela II will top out at 150 mph on the corridor even though the track is rated for 160 mph, and will continue to do so until Tier II is ever possibly changed to match the track class speed of 160.


Can you provide a citation to the section of the relevant CFR where your claimed modification appears?


----------



## Amtrak706

jis said:


> Can you provide a citation to the section of the relevant CFR where your claimed modification appears?


https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...tive-compliance-and-high-speed-trainsets#h-81

I guess I missed this one. They did, in fact, up Tier II to 160 a few months ago. I am very happy to be wrong about that!

And further down, alternative crashworthiness requirements are established for Tier I and II. Only Tier I is mentioned specifically, but I am pretty sure that Tier II by definition includes all criteria of I and adds on more, since Acela II is being designed with a CEM system to comply with this rule as well:
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...gth-of-cab-cars-and-multiple-unit-locomotives


----------



## west point

MARC Rider said:


> Frankly, I think there would be a lot more benefit if they could get Metro North to upgrade the maximum speed between New Rochelle and New Haven to 80 mph rather than worrying about 160 mph vs. 150 mph. On my recent Acela trip, we were mostly going ~40-50 mph through that section, occasionally speeding up to 70 mph on short stretches. The cars on the paralleling I-95 were definitely going faster, even when they were jammed up. I'll bet if you could upgrade that section, you might shave 30 minutes off the NYP-BOS times.



Good point. However the upgrade of MNRR would come from an entirely different money pool. Transfer the 150 MPH money to MNRR slim and a negative none. On your trip do you know if your train had clear signals or was following another train? Also did it have to slow for the Walk bridge work? The new interlocking east of Walk is still not in service so that makes for a long 2 track running segment, Was your trip during rush hours?


----------



## Acela150

MARC Rider said:


> Frankly, I think there would be a lot more benefit if they could get Metro North to upgrade the maximum speed between New Rochelle and New Haven to 80 mph rather than worrying about 160 mph vs. 150 mph. On my recent Acela trip, we were mostly going ~40-50 mph through that section, occasionally speeding up to 70 mph on short stretches. The cars on the paralleling I-95 were definitely going faster, even when they were jammed up. I'll bet if you could upgrade that section, you might shave 30 minutes off the NYP-BOS times.



Metro North has always been that way. Keep in mind that the New Haven Line is a very busy Line and is always undergoing some type of work. I’ve seen their DTOBO which stands for Daily Train Operations Bulletin Order. Which is their version of a TSRB or Temporary Speed Restriction Bulletin. So basically slow orders. While I haven’t seen one in a while. The DTOBO on the New Haven Line was longer than both the Harlem and Hudson lines combined. Metro North doesn’t have an obligation to upgrade the speed to 80mph track cause they run Amtrak. Just like Amtrak doesn’t have an obligation to upgrade track for Freight or commuter service.


----------



## MARC Rider

Acela150 said:


> Metro North has always been that way. Keep in mind that the New Haven Line is a very busy Line and is always undergoing some type of work. I’ve seen their DTOBO which stands for Daily Train Operations Bulletin Order. Which is their version of a TSRB or Temporary Speed Restriction Bulletin. So basically slow orders. While I haven’t seen one in a while. The DTOBO on the New Haven Line was longer than both the Harlem and Hudson lines combined. Metro North doesn’t have an obligation to upgrade the speed to 80mph track cause they run Amtrak. Just like Amtrak doesn’t have an obligation to upgrade track for Freight or commuter service.



Your points are well taken. I've been riding that route once or twice a year for almost 20 years, and there's always been work. Do they ever plan to finish the work? 

While Metro North might not have an obligation to accommodate Amtrak high speed rail, if the political leaders at the Federal and state level have any interest in even "higher speed" intercity rail between New York and Boston, it might be worth it for them to both change Metro North's mandate regarding its responsibility to Amtrak and to provide them with enough funding to upgrade the infrastructure to allow consistent running at 70-80 mph. Maybe even some maximum speed of 90 mph, if its technically feasible.


----------



## daybeers

The New Haven Line has always been unbearably slow. The 72.7 miles from NHV to GCT takes ~104-125 minutes on MNRR, including expresses. It's utterly ridiculous.


----------



## west point

MNRR in a few years could get their express tracks to about 90 MPH for at least short distances. East of Bridgeport or where many trains short turn then maybe some speed up. The only other solution which is impossible would be a 5th track for super expresses NYG - New Haven.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

Its fun to see the unknowing with no experience or knowledge discus what Metro North should do. the New Haven line before Metro North never was a higher speed than 70 mph.
Metro North got some sections to higher speed including a token 90 mph section. It was the FRA that reduced the speeds due to concerns MN was pushing the limits.
The token 90 mph from New Rochelle till just short of Harrison saved a whopping 27 seconds of running time .
a educated calculation a few years ago showed if entire line were made 100 mph minus the temporary restrictions would be a gain of 3 minutes and 20 seconds at a cost of many Billions of US peso's
the biggest thing hindering Amtrak is simple facts they do not show up on time at wherever they enter Metro North, even a minute can put you behind a Metro North train simple as that.


----------



## jis

Dutch, I was thinking exactly that. Glad you stated it so eloquently ...


----------



## Acela150

Dutchrailnut said:


> the biggest thing hindering Amtrak is simple facts they do not show up on time at wherever they enter Metro North, even a minute can put you behind a Metro North train simple as that.



They'll show up on time or early and Metro North will put them behind, it happens every day.... Don't blame Amtrak for being 1 minute late. I was once on an Acela that arrived into New Haven 10 minutes early. By the time we got to Stamford we were 20 minutes late. So unless Amtrak magically took over the dispatching on the New Haven line, this goes on Metro North.


----------



## OBS

Acela150 said:


> They'll show up on time or early and Metro North will put them behind, it happens every day.... Don't blame Amtrak for being 1 minute late. I was once on an Acela that arrived into New Haven 10 minutes early. By the time we got to Stamford we were 20 minutes late. So unless Amtrak magically took over the dispatching on the New Haven line, this goes on Metro North.


Very true. Happens waayyy too often.


----------



## DSS&A

OBS said:


> Very true. Happens waayyy too often.


Amtrak may still have an opportunity to address the MN dispatching delay problems if the agreement language to allow MN on Amtrak's route into Penn Station not finalized. On-Time performance language can be added into the agreement before it is signed. Basic language such as "I will let me use my tracks for additional service as long as you run my trains X percent on your tracks between locarion A and location B".


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> They'll show up on time or early and Metro North will put them behind, it happens every day.... Don't blame Amtrak for being 1 minute late. I was once on an Acela that arrived into New Haven 10 minutes early. By the time we got to Stamford we were 20 minutes late. So unless Amtrak magically took over the dispatching on the New Haven line, this goes on Metro North.


Then again Amtrak distressingly often has difficulty keeping its own trains on its own dispatched railroad on time, and of course, we shall not even discuss what happens to NJT ( when they can find a crew to run their train that is [emoji51])


----------



## Thirdrail7

MARC Rider said:


> Your points are well taken. I've been riding that route once or twice a year for almost 20 years, and there's always been work. Do they ever plan to finish the work?



They will never finish the work. Do you know why? It is one of the busiest commuter lines in the country. It is also one of the oldest. It takes a constant pounding. So even if they finish one project, it is time to do another one. By the time they finish everything, the first thing they completed will need an overhaul. 

Remember, they are working to literally rebuild ever component of their railroad. Bridges, catenary, underpasses, overpasses, track beds...everything. It started in the late 90s.


----------



## Acela150

The Wall Street Journal has posted a story on Alstom's building of the Acela II trainsets. 

Credit to Jis for the find and posting the article to Facebook. 

It should be noted that there are only 2 photos. One is of what I'll guess will be a cafe and the other is of the interior of a shell that is undergoing work. 

Article is behind a paywall but may show up for some who don't pay. It oddly enough showed up on my phone. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/next-g...oBQpfxbFe5tV2Te8h8Q6zriLqlmuuwMbmpWKAFSlIBdlc


----------



## PaTrainFan

Same story on MarketWatch.com, no paywall.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/amtraks-next-generation-acela-cars-taking-shape-2019-05-12


----------



## jis

PaTrainFan said:


> Same story on MarketWatch.com, no paywall.
> 
> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/amtraks-next-generation-acela-cars-taking-shape-2019-05-12



Yup. It has the words, but it is missing the photos that Acela150 mentions.


----------



## Acela150

Photos


----------



## districtRich

CBS This Morning had a nice segment this morning on the new trainsets. There were some shots of the new interiors.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amtrak-new-acela-trains-first-look/


----------



## jis

Looks very TGV-like inside and out, not surprisingly.


----------



## Acela150

Railway Age article about the building of the new HST's. 

https://www.railwayage.com/passenge...ela-cars-are-made-inside-the-alstom-facility/


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Looks very TGV-like inside and out, not surprisingly.



Agreed, I had a feeling the new trainsets would be more European like. 

Side note, it appears that they are doing away with the "airline style" luggage compartments. GOOD! Those things drive me up a wall. People always leave them open and it ticks me off. You didn't find it open, so close it. Anytime I have to close one I always politely say to the person who opened it, leave it as you found it! Closed!


----------



## Blackwolf

Totally a railfan thing, but it would appear a K5LA isn't the horn being installed? Looks like only two tones, located below the windscreen and behind plastic streamlining panels once in service.


----------



## jis

Are those four battering ram type things, CEM Collision Posts?


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Are those four battering ram type things, CEM Collision Posts?



So from the looks of it, yes. I can't wait for Engineers to complain about being centered instead of on the right hand side of the control stand.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> So from the looks of it, yes. I can't wait for Engineers to complain about being centered instead of on the right hand side of the control stand.



They already are. It is likely going to become an issue when it comes to training students.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> They already are. It is likely going to become an issue when it comes to training students.



Of course. I had the thought of operating the trainset with a student. During my time at NS certain units had a jump seat for such an occasion. I’ll take a guess that the cabs will have a jump seat. Either way it’s not the same as sitting next to someone who can give you tips and show you certain tricks of operating.


----------



## GiantsFan

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/amtrak-new-acela-trains-first-look/

Some cool footage of the new trains in this CBS news video!


----------



## Acela150

GiantsFan said:


> https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/amtrak-new-acela-trains-first-look/
> 
> Some cool footage of the new trains in this CBS news video!



Someone beat you to it. [emoji4] The piece was on last week.


----------



## Acela150

Progressive Railroading has an article about the new Acela sets. It seems that Amtrak and Alstom had a media day on June 12th where they showed off the building progress of the new Trainsets. In the article it also states that for a while both the Alstom sets and the Bombardier sets will be in service. Once all of the new Alstom sets are in service they will phase out the original equipment.

https://www.progressiverailroading....ntroduce-next-gen-Acela-trains-in-2021--57887


----------



## jis

Interestingly, the power heads even in the Bombardier sets are mostly Alstom.


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> Interestingly, the power heads even in the Bombardier sets are mostly Alstom.


The existing Acela sets were a joint venture between Bombardier and Alstom. Alstom designed the power cars and provided the traction equipment, electronics and the powered and non-powered trucks.


----------



## Acela150

I believe it was 75% Bombardier and 25% Alstom. Personally I don’t think that was the way to go.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> I believe it was 75% Bombardier and 25% Alstom. Personally I don’t think that was the way to go.



The power heads were more or less entirely Alstom. Bombardier’s main contribution was the LRC derived cars and the tilt system.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> The power heads were more or less entirely Alstom. Bombardier’s main contribution was the LRC derived cars and the tilt system.



I think the major problem with the current fleet is simple. They brought it online and was built during a time where technology was going through a major change. The new trainsets won’t have that issue. AFAIK. Either way I personally look forward to hopefully being able to photograph both the old and new at track speed somewhere. But that’s just a matter of luck and timing things out in the employee timetable. Which the employee timetable is harder and harder to get a hold of these days. With good cause.


----------



## jis

I think the real problem with the current fleet is that it had to be built to a FRA imposed standard that makes no sense in the real world. FRA has since recanted and finally admitted that they had no idea what needed to be done for speeds above 125mph and were simply shooting in the dark.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> I think the real problem with the current fleet is that it had to be built to a FRA imposed standard that makes no sense in the real world. FRA has since recanted and finally admitted that they had no idea what needed to be done for speeds above 125mph and were simply shooting in the dark.



The Feds shooting in the dark? Now that doesn't surprise me one bit!


----------



## Acela150

So here is an interesting tidbit of note. I was browsing Alstom's jobs page and they are looking for someone to basically be in charge of certain aspects of testing the new HST's. It says the first Trainset will go to Pueblo. Obviously.. The second.. Philadelphia! We shall see something soon.


----------



## Acela150

In the September issue of "Trains" Magazine their is an article relating to the new Acela sets. I actually caught wind of it by accident when I accidentally ended up on their website. So IF you have a subscription to "Trains" magazine you should have that issue now, and if you're not like me head to a place that sells magazines usually after the 21st of the month. A family friend who is a subscriber says that the article is good and has some good photos.


----------



## jis

Yes. The article in Trains is good. 

Incidentally, the latest PTJ also has an article on Alstom and the new Acela.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I guess I'm skeptical but I'm wondering if they will get 30 to 40 years out of this equipment. The fact they need to replace the current Acela fleet still boggles my mind.


----------



## west point

Thirdrail7 said:


> I guess I'm skeptical but I'm wondering if they will get 30 to 40 years out of this equipment. The fact they need to replace the current Acela fleet still boggles my mind.



It is not replace as much as to expand capacity. Expansion from 20 -1s to 28 -2s train sets and more capacity on each -2 train set. As well additional cars can be bought to insert into the Acela-2s train sets at a cost that was going to be much less than Acela-1s sets if they could be bought at all ? Probably one way to expand -1s would be to split up some -1s and insert them into other -1s. However that would only happen if passenger demand exceeded any Amtrak projections which is highly unlikely.


----------



## jis

Acela 1s are toast no matter how much railfans want to dream otherwise.

Acela 21 cars (Yes Amtrak official terminology is Acela 21 for the new sets) are basically standard TGV cars with a few tweaks, so it is not a big deal to conjure up a few additional ones if needed, unlike Acela 1 cars which were a one of a type thing and for which there was no production line extant once the order had been delivered.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Acela 1s are toast no matter how much railfans want to dream otherwise.
> 
> Acela 21 cars (Yes Amtrak official terminology is Acela 21 for the new sets) are basically standard TGV cars with a few tweaks, so it is not a big deal to conjure up a few additional ones if needed, unlike Acela 1 cars which were a one of a type thing and for which there was no production line extant once the order had been delivered.



I can agree with you Jis, that the original Acela's are done for. I'm personally looking forward to the new Acela sets. For a wide variety of reasons.


----------



## Acela150

Acela150 said:


> In the September issue of "Trains" Magazine their is an article relating to the new Acela sets. I actually caught wind of it by accident when I accidentally ended up on their website. So IF you have a subscription to "Trains" magazine you should have that issue now, and if you're not like me head to a place that sells magazines usually after the 21st of the month. A family friend who is a subscriber says that the article is good and has some good photos.



Ok folks.. I picked up a copy of the September issue of TRAINS today and just got done reading the article. Most of the photos in the article are already online. I think their is one photo that would intrigue some of the end of the cars will look like. 

Some interesting notes that should be taken into account. 
The current fleet is 666 feet in length. (They couldn't add another foot?)  
The new trainsets will be 698 feet in length. An additional 32 feet. Almost half a car. (Standard Passenger Cars are 85 feet)
The weight of the new trainsets is astonishing to me. 544 tons. The current fleet? 624!! 80 tons will make a huge difference in several ways. 
The new fleet will have a continuous power draw of 7,500 KW. The current is at 9,200 KW. 
The test track that Alstom has built is going to be limited to 40 MPH. So if you think you're going to see these things really moving in Hornell stop kidding yourself.  
The tilttronix active tilt system will be much different then what is on the current fleet. The tilttronix will use "software" that will tell the train how much tilt to impose at the trains current speed. Current fleet is limited to 4 degrees. I believe the new fleet will be limited to 6.2 degrees. 
Many key components that are related to traction will be within the machine room of the power cars. Which is supposed to improve reliability. (We shall see about that) 
Amtrak is looking into bringing back cart service with the new fleet. Claiming that people are working and don't like to leave their seat or thousands of dollars worth of goodys. 
Amtrak is looking into the possibility of the entire trainset being assigned seating. Part of this would include information on where to board the train. Which the article states is a work in progress. 

Regarding the entire train being assigned seating... Amtrak is looking to *PILOT* this in *January of 2020*. 

And last but not least.. When do they think they'll see a trainset come out of Hornell???? 
As stated in a thread this past week. (July NGEC Updates) January is when testing at TTCI will commence. The trainset is slated to be released from Hornell in December. 
Corridor testing hopefully beginning March of 2020. 
The article also states the TTCI set will stay there for 8 months!


----------



## JustOnce

Acela150 said:


> Ok folks.. I picked up a copy of the September issue of TRAINS today and just got done reading the article. Most of the photos in the article are already online. I think their is one photo that would intrigue some of the end of the cars will look like.
> 
> Some interesting notes that should be taken into account.
> The current fleet is 666 feet in length. (They couldn't add another foot?)
> The new trainsets will be 698 feet in length. An additional 32 feet. Almost half a car. (Standard Passenger Cars are 85 feet)
> The weight of the new trainsets is astonishing to me. 544 tons. The current fleet? 624!! 80 tons will make a huge difference in several ways.
> The new fleet will have a continuous power draw of 7,500 KW. The current is at 9,200 KW.


A lot of that is a result of the introduction of the FRA Tier II standards during the design and production of the Acela Is. They weren't supposed to have two power cars, but a power car and a cab so they ended up with double the needed power. The design changes also caused the weight to shoot up.


> Many key components that are related to traction will be within the machine room of the power cars. Which is supposed to improve reliability. (We shall see about that)


I'm not sure what wasn't already in the machine rooms: there's a transformer, input inverters/rectifiers/power conditioning, traction inverters, HEP inverters, control hardware, and traction motors. Obviously the traction motors are underneath in the trucks/bogies. The A1's had the transformer "underfloor" (source). Were any of the inverters not in the mechanical room of an A1?


----------



## jis

In modern electric power heads and locomotives, the transformer generally is suspended underfloor, to lower the overall center of gravity of the locomotive/power head. I would be very surprised if that was not the case with the A1 power heads. The rectifier and various inverter banks typically are in the engine compartment together with the control electronic hardware, and a lot of the cooling gear.


----------



## Acela150

Contain yourselves folks..  Just mockups. 

https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/amtrak-acela-new-cars-upgrades-20190827.html


----------



## frequentflyer

Wow, looks similar to the French TGV the set is based on. Thank you FRA for admending the crash rules so we can get the good Euro stuff.


----------



## JustOnce

I believe the A2's traction motors are frame-suspended (that is they're part of the "sprung" portion of the trucks) as are the ACS-64s. Frame suspension reduces impact on the tracks (vs nose suspended riding on the unsprung axle) and improves ride quality but requires the railroad equivalent of a car's CV joint to connect the traction motor to the drive axle. I'm sure that adds complexity and maintenance issues.

I believe the ACS-64s have frame-suspended motors. What about the A1s?


----------



## jis

Another report on Acela 21's progress....

https://www.nj.com/traffic/2019/08/...la-trains-and-we-got-a-sneak-peak-inside.html


----------



## Acela150

Another article regarding Acela21 from Trains magazine.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/08/28-amtrak-provides-first-look-at-new-acela-interiors


----------



## Acela150

And now Amtrak is on the bandwagon with photos. 

http://blog.amtrak.com/2019/08/amtraks-new-acela-fleet-interiors/


----------



## sttom

I see they are going with the less comfortable European style seats. That's kind of a shame. I've ridden on Pendolinos in Poland and their 2nd class seats were not comfortable compared to seats on the Capitol Corridor. Even first class seats on some of their trains gave the feeling of "From all of us that brought you PKP, get out".


----------



## Acela150

sttom said:


> I see they are going with the less comfortable European style seats.



Keep in mind that the new trainsets are very similar to the TGV. I believe a fair amount of the technology is from TGV trainsets. Don't write the seats off now just cause of their appearance. You never know, they could be some of the most comfortable seats you've ever sat in.


----------



## sttom

Acela150 said:


> Keep in mind that the new trainsets are very similar to the TGV. I believe a fair amount of the technology is from TGV trainsets. Don't write the seats off now just cause of their appearance. You never know, they could be some of the most comfortable seats you've ever sat in.



I am willing to. I've ridden on European trains, they may be convenient, but comfort isn't always at the top of design considerations, at least from my experience.


----------



## cocojacoby

Still not happy about the fixed seats and the fact that half of the passengers are going to be forced to ride backwards.

Another thing, these are brand new trains. Can't they at least figure out how to place the windows (or arrange the seats) so that every seat gets a window? Seriously Amtrak expects people to sit next to a blank wall? Come on guys. Seems like a lazy approach to rail car design to me.


----------



## sttom

Well having rotating seats with power sockets costs too much. Do you want a cost cutting somewhere else? Cause that was the option likely according to Anderson.


----------



## Acela150

cocojacoby said:


> Another thing, these are brand new trains. Can't they at least figure out how to place the windows (or arrange the seats) so that every seat gets a window? Seriously Amtrak expects people to sit next to a blank wall? Come on guys. Seems like a lazy approach to rail car design to me.



Keep in mind that these are just mock ups. Not what the actual cars will look like with the exception of the seating. 



sttom said:


> Well having rotating seats with power sockets costs too much. Do you want a cost cutting somewhere else? Cause that was the option likely according to Anderson.



Well said.


----------



## cocojacoby

sttom said:


> Well having rotating seats with power sockets costs too much. Do you want a cost cutting somewhere else? Cause that was the option likely according to Anderson.



Why? It's not complicated at all. The seats only rotate 180 degrees so a simple shielded wire running inside the base is all that's needed. It's not like they rotate around and around. Ever see a "theater in the round"? Lots of musical instruments/amps that rotate 180 degrees and then go back 180 degrees. Pretty simple really.


----------



## Acela150

cocojacoby said:


> Why? It's not complicated at all. The seats only rotate 180 degrees so a simple wire running inside the base is all that's needed. It's not like they rotate around and around. Ever see a "theater in the round"? Lots of musical instruments/amps that rotate 180 degrees and then go back 180 degrees. Pretty simple really.



The one thing I can tell from your post is that you don realize how often these seats are rotated. The electrical components would wear out very quickly from being rotated so much.


----------



## sttom

cocojacoby said:


> Why? It's not complicated at all. The seats only rotate 180 degrees so a simple wire running inside the base is all that's needed. It's not like they rotate around and around. Ever see a "theater in the round"? Lots of musical instruments/amps that rotate 180 degrees and then go back 180 degrees. Pretty simple really.



Doesn't matter. If Amtrak is going with off the shelf equipment, a different seat is an add on. And add ons/substitutions cost extra. And we all know Amtrak can't afford extras.


----------



## Acela150

This is the last article I'll post here about the interiors being put on display for the media. The Philadelphia NBC channel had a brief piece on the new trains.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...entury-Comfort-CC_Philadelphia-558480422.html


----------



## MARC Rider

cocojacoby said:


> Still not happy about the fixed seats and the fact that half of the passengers are going to be forced to ride backwards.
> 
> Another thing, these are brand new trains. Can't they at least figure out how to place the windows (or arrange the seats) so that every seat gets a window? Seriously Amtrak expects people to sit next to a blank wall? Come on guys. Seems like a lazy approach to rail car design to me.


Right now on the Acelas, a large percentage of the seats are fixed to ride backwards. When the Vermonter did the reverse move at Palmer, half the seats were fixed to face backwards. I think there's other current Amtrak service with a considerable percentage of the seats facing backwards. I don't think that's keeping people from riding the trains. 

What bothers me about the arrangement of the seats on the current Acela is not that some of them are fixed to face backwards, but they are arranged so that you can't get a full seat recline. That should be an easy enough fix, just design the interiors so that in one end of the car the seats face one way, and in the other end, the seats face the other way, with the 4-seater tables in the middle of the car, not scattered around, like in the Acela first class, or at the end of the car, as in the Acela and Amfleet 1 business class.


----------



## Acela150

MARC Rider said:


> Right now on the Acelas, a large percentage of the seats are fixed to ride backwards. When the Vermonter did the reverse move at Palmer, half the seats were fixed to face backwards. I think there's other current Amtrak service with a considerable percentage of the seats facing backwards. I don't think that's keeping people from riding the trains.



Define "A large percentage". Cause the majority of the seats in BC rotate. And are rotated during layovers in WAS and BOS. 

Keystone Trains as well as Hiawatha Trains run 50/50 seating. Keystones change direction at PHL and the Hiawatha's don't layover long enough to flip all the seats.


----------



## Acela150

According to the August NGEC report. 2 cars are completed in Hornell, No power cars yet, and not a trainset. Minor delays have occurred BUT... Still on track for the first trainset to go to TTCI in January.


----------



## Thirdrail7

MARC Rider said:


> What bothers me about the arrangement of the seats on the current Acela is not that some of them are fixed to face backwards, but they are arranged so that you can't get a full seat recline. That should be an easy enough fix, just design the interiors so that in one end of the car the seats face one way, and in the other end, the seats face the other way, with the 4-seater tables in the middle of the car, not scattered around, like in the Acela first class, or at the end of the car, as in the Acela and Amfleet 1 business class.



You'll be happy that if things go correctly, passengers will be able to select their seat when they make reservations...and I'm sure those forward facing seats will cost more than the rear facing cramped seat. I'll bet window seats will cost more too.




Acela150 said:


> According to the August NGEC report. 2 cars are completed in Hornell, No power cars yet, and not a trainset. Minor delays have occurred BUT... Still on track for the first trainset to go to TTCI in January.



Some mods are necessary to conform to FRA guidelines.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Some mods are necessary to conform to FRA guidelines.



A guess says that they aren't to major of a mod since they are still estimating a January TTCI delivery.


----------



## Acela150

Extremely encouraging news in the last NGEC monthly report. 

A single Power Car has been tested under its own power at Alstom! 

Delivery of TS 1 to TTCI on pace for January.


----------



## jis

Railway Age article on Acela 21 with picture of a set...

https://www.railwayage.com/passenge...t-gen-acela-express-prototype/?RAchannel=news


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Railway Age article on Acela 21 with picture of a set...
> 
> https://www.railwayage.com/passenge...t-gen-acela-express-prototype/?RAchannel=news



I was shocked when Amtrak released the photo. BUT, at the same time it's good publicity about an up and coming new product.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> I was shocked when Amtrak released the photo. BUT, at the same time it's good publicity about an up and coming new product.



What is there to be shocked about it? Outside of the US it is not even anything new. Pretty much just another version of a TGV.


----------



## railiner

That photo doesn't show very much...would be much more interested in seeing large photo's of the inside, where it matters...


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> What is there to be shocked about it? Outside of the US it is not even anything new. Pretty much just another version of a TGV.



How often is it that we see released images of a product before it's delivered from the railroad it's going to? That's the only reason.


----------



## PerRock

railiner said:


> That photo doesn't show very much...would be much more interested in seeing large photo's of the inside, where it matters...



Amtrak actually released a slew of images on their Media Relations website; you can view them here: https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/new-acela-fleet-underway-at-alstom-facility-in-hornell-ny/

peter


----------



## railiner

PerRock said:


> Amtrak actually released a slew of images on their Media Relations website; you can view them here: https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/new-acela-fleet-underway-at-alstom-facility-in-hornell-ny/
> 
> peter


Oh...I must have missed those. Thanks for the link.
Those cars certainly look "foreign" to my eyes, used to Amfleet, Horizon, and Superliner, et al.....
They also appear to be shorter and narrower, unless it is just an optical illusion.
And, are those tray tables attached directly to the seat backs in front of them? Don't think that would work too well, unless the seats are non-recliners...


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> How often is it that we see released images of a product before it's delivered from the railroad it's going to? That's the only reason.


Amtrak did that with the first round of Acelas too AFAIR. NJT did that with the MLVs. So it has happened in the past, though not for every new product


railiner said:


> Oh...I must have missed those. Thanks for the link.
> Those cars certainly look "foreign" to my eyes, used to Amfleet, Horizon, and Superliner, et al.....
> They also appear to be shorter and narrower, unless it is just an optical illusion.
> And, are those tray tables attached directly to the seat backs in front of them? Don't think that would work too well, unless the seats are non-recliners...


Shorter but not narrower. Remember, they also ride on articulated Jacobs Trucks shared by adjacent cars, except for the end cars, which have a standard truck at the extreme end. So it is important to reduce how far the center of the car sticks inward on sharp curves, since the pivot center is at the very end of the car and not at the quarter point or thereabouts.

There should be no problem with the trays since those seat backs do not move. The seats are like those on Brightline and other Siemens Viaggio derived cars. The base slides forward to recline. The frame of the seat is fixed. The back cushion tilts as the base slides forward, so reclining the seat does not occupy any space normally available to the person in the seat behind, and hence also the position of the tray. This is standard practice in new seat design for trains apparently.


----------



## railiner

Maybe that system of recline is okay for a 'day coach', but I don't think it would be very comfortable for a long-distance coach...your knees move closer to the seatback in front of you if you recline...would make it hard to stretch your legs out, unless there was "lie-flat" seat pitch....


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Maybe that system of recline is okay for a 'day coach', but I don't think it would be very comfortable for a long-distance coach...your knees move closer to the seatback in front of you if you recline...would make it hard to stretch your legs out, unless there was "lie-flat" seat pitch....


Brightline and Acela 21s are all daytime operations.

For night coach I would definitely recommend much larger pitch than is used either on Acelas or on Brightline, and that should remove the problem of knees getting close to the seat in front. It is quite possible to design these sorts of seats with adequate pitch to allow for stretching out legs comfortable, Just because the back does not move does not mean it has to go all the way down to the floor. There can be adequate gap underneath the seat to stretch ones legs out too. You don't have to go all the way to lie-flat to be able to stretch legs out. Remember those notorious angled flats in airline business class, not that I am suggesting such. But even those can be constructed using a fixed seat frame profile.


----------



## railiner

I still don’t like that type of recline. I have sat in some luxury autos rear seats that offer it(the only practical way they can), and find them very uncomfortable.

Give me my good ol’ LaZboy...


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I still don’t like that type of recline. I have sat in some luxury autos rear seats that offer it(the only practical way they can), and find them very uncomfortable.
> 
> Give me my good ol’ LaZboy...



So you don’t like the recline on the lie flat seats either then, except in the flat position?


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> So you don’t like the recline on the lie flat seats either then, except in the flat position?


If they provide adequate room for me to stretch my legs out when semi-reclined, fine. Otherwise, no...


----------



## Acela150

As mentioned on a different forum per the NGEC November report.

As of 10/31/19 TS 1 has power cars on both ends. TS 2 is being worked on for NEC testing.

Tilt testing completed.


----------



## Acela150

Thanks to @jis for the article. 

https://www.eveningtribune.com/news...s-permit-for-cross-country-trip-to-test-track


----------



## west point

Why the delay for a permit ? Is it because that the equipment has not been inspected? Since when is a FRA permit needed to have a non revenue ferry trip ?


----------



## Thirdrail7

west point said:


> Since when is a FRA permit needed to have a non revenue ferry trip ?



When you're moving a non-compliant piece of equipment, you've always needed a "permit" aka a waiver.


----------



## Acela150

A P42 and VL Diner were spotted enroute to Hornell today.


----------



## Acela150

Video. 

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/kuck...0_eHsGfOsVRKrDKiwQKehOPQgLACuEYqe6h5evJGtQTGs


----------



## sttom

WoodyinNYC said:


> Completed on schedule? Nah. Alstom says they're already 89 days behind. In the end, I'm betting that the Sunnyside Yard item entangled with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority is the one Least Likely To Succeed. YMMV



89 days is nothing compared to the California cars we're never going to get unless there is a 4th order sans federal funding.


----------



## CraigDK

https://media.amtrak.com/media-images/new-acela-fleet-on-the-move/

More video.


----------



## Ziv

The power cars look great even with the missing panels. The paint scheme on the cars, not so much. Can't wait to see them in the wild.


----------



## frequentflyer

Ziv said:


> The power cars look great even with the missing panels. The paint scheme on the cars, not so much. Can't wait to see them in the wild.



Not feeling the livery either, though it looks very European to me. We will get use to it.


----------



## Ziv

Exactly, FrequentFlyer. I was thinking they reminded me of rail cars from the 1990's in Poland or Slovakia. As you said, we will get used to it in time. Especially given how good the interiors are going to look.


----------



## jis

Permission obtained from FRA the prototype is headed to Pueblo soon. 

https://www.eveningtribune.com/news...-of-high-speed-train-from-hornell-to-colorado


----------



## Anderson

It reminds me a lot of an early version of the Eurostar.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> It reminds me a lot of an early version of the Eurostar.


The nose is different though, and it is about half the length of the Eurostar.


----------



## Anderson

I know the length is off. I was thinking general profile, car shape/size, and color pattern (obviously using blue instead of yellow).


----------



## Thirdrail7

I hope they come up with a decent Phase for this thing because it is pretty funny looking.


----------



## Anderson

Thirdrail7 said:


> I hope they come up with a decent Phase for this thing because it is pretty funny looking.


Well, Amtrak sure is going through a phase these days...


----------



## Thirdrail7

Please tell me they have traps.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Please tell me they have traps.



Absolutely! LOL! 

I believe that they will have "gap fillers". Although I'm not sure about that. My thought with gap fillers is that another part that can break, that IMO isn't a necessity. But that's my opinion. YMMV.


----------



## Ziv

ThirdRail, it isn't gospel, obviously, but the photos of the Avelia Liberty that I have seen the most has the same color scheme for the passenger cars. The power cars look better with a kind of dove grey chin and a nice looking logo, but the passenger cars we are seeing may have the intended paint job, maybe. Just my 2 cents.



Thirdrail7 said:


> I hope they come up with a decent Phase for this thing because it is pretty funny looking.


----------



## Acela150

While Amtrak is hyping that the new Trainsets are coming in 2021. The OIG says, not so fast. 

As long as it's not delayed by almost 2 years like the current fleet, I'll take it as a win. 

https://amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/OIG-A-2020-004 Acela 21 (REDACTED).pdf


----------



## PRR 60

Thirdrail7 said:


> Please tell me they have traps.



Nope.


----------



## west point

That paint job impresses me as a eastern European RR's idea of how to paint a train 20 - 30 years ago!.


----------



## jis

Seems to be just the complement of the standard TGV livery

https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...rain-taken-24-may-1989-the-picture-id51400944

TGVs have grey above and below the windows and blue band along the windows, this has grey along the windows and blue above and below the windows.

Very Western Europe. They are liveried that way even today in the basic form. Units used for specific services like Thalys, Ouigo etc. have other liveries.


----------



## Ziv

If the TGV photo was taken 1989 like the link implies, we are still looking at a 30 year old European color scheme but it is one that is relatively timeless and attractive. 
But they could paint them pink for all I care, as long as they deliver them reasonably close to their expected delivery date. 



jis said:


> Seems to be just the complement of the standard TGV livery
> 
> https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...rain-taken-24-may-1989-the-picture-id51400944
> 
> TGVs have grey above and below the windows and blue band along the windows, this has grey along the windows and blue above and below the windows.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PRR 60 said:


> Nope.



So much for learning from your past mistakes. 



Acela150 said:


> While Amtrak is hyping that the new Trainsets are coming in 2021. The OIG says, not so fast.
> 
> As long as it's not delayed by almost 2 years like the current fleet, I'll take it as a win.



Well, everyone knew that would happen. According to that report, things don't bode well for the current Acela in the future.


----------



## DSS&A

Amtrak has received the FRA waiver to move the Acela II train to Pueblo for testing.. There is a report in an article that the Acela II train will move to Pueblo in Mid-February. 

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/first-amtrak-acela-express-train-rolls-off-alstom-production-line/


----------



## Thirdrail7

DSS&A said:


> A. There is a report in an article that the Acela II train will move to Pueblo in Mid-February.



It is supposed to depart for Pueblo next week.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi Thirdrail7,

Thank you for your delivery information!!


----------



## Thirdrail7

North to the LSL route, then 3 west.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> North to the LSL route, then 3 west.



Opinion... The only thing that would make this better is if it were a Sunday and the guy from the Monster Jam commercials comes on yelling "THIS SUNDAY, SUNDAY, SUNDAY"!!! LOL!


----------



## DSS&A

Thirdrail7 said:


> North to the LSL route, then 3 west.


Hi,
Do you have information on how quickly the special train will be routed west from Chicago, Monday, Tuesday, ......?


----------



## Acela150

Ok folks.. Here is some info thanks to the "Ambuff-Amtrak Equipment Roster News & Notes" Facebook page. 

Power cars will be numbered from 2100-2155. 

There is a planned Media event on Tuesday in Chicago around 115pm. It's planned to leave shortly there after. The plan is leave Chicago after 345pm.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Given the waiver and associated speed restrictions, it will likely depart at 3:45p, the scheduled departure time. Otherwise, it could run into schedule trouble.


----------



## Railpaxscott

Thirdrail7 said:


> North to the LSL route, then 3 west.


What night is this going to be through northern Ohio?


----------



## DSS&A

Thirdrail7 said:


> Given the waiver and associated speed restrictions, it will likely depart at 3:45p, the scheduled departure time. Otherwise, it could run into schedule trouble.


The special train must get out of Chicago ahead of the evening commuter rush hour trains. It will follow the Southwest Chief by about one hour for starters, at least as it passes through Illinois. Do you know if the "Chicago Event" will be at Union Station, or elsewhere?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Railpaxscott said:


> What night is this going to be through northern Ohio?



It passes through OH Monday afternoon-evening, depending on your location.



DSS&A said:


> The special train must get out of Chicago ahead of the evening commuter rush hour trains. It will follow the Southwest Chief by about one hour for starters, at least as it passes through Illinois. Do you know if the "Chicago Event" will be at Union Station, or elsewhere?



It should remain in the station for the event. Don't vandalize it.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Railpaxscott said:


> What night is this going to be through northern Ohio?



Story in Toledo Blade https://www.toledoblade.com/local/t...in-to-pass-through-toledo/stories/20200216112


----------



## DSS&A

Thirdrail7 said:


> It passes through OH Monday afternoon-evening, depending on your location.
> 
> 
> 
> It should remain in the station for the event. Don't vandalize it.


I will try to take a late lunch and walk over to the station.


----------



## railiner

It seems like Amtrak must have sent out press releases to the media along the route. I think that’s a clever idea...something rarely seen in this day and age, that was always done back in the “streamliner era”, whenever a new train hit the rails, to generate positive publicity, and excitement to the public.

To really capitalize, they should set up public displays at various points...perhaps on its return trip?

Has anyone spotted any other media reports besides the Toledo ine?


----------



## PerRock

The Buffalo news put out a short report, got some facts wrong.

Has anyone heard of where it's at along the line? I was thinking of driving down to Toledo after work, but don't want to make the drive if it's gone by already.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PerRock said:


> Has anyone heard of where it's at along the line? I was thinking of driving down to Toledo after work, but don't want to make the drive if it's gone by already.



It just went by Erie about 20 minutes ago. It's about 75" down. I doubt it'll be at TOL before 830p. Realistically, it'll be closed to 10p-11pm


----------



## frequentflyer

Looks better with the skirts on.


----------



## Agent

Here are a couple more videos.

WNY RAILFAN caught it at Silver Springs, New York.



This is a local news report from WETM 18 News.


----------



## jiml

Lot of motive power assigned to this run. Don't mind the color scheme at all. It should look great at NEC speed.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Wow. It is already west of CLE. Not a bad run. It may make Tol by 830 p after all.


----------



## tonijustine

Thirdrail7 said:


> Wow. It is already west of CLE. Not a bad run. It may make Tol by 830 p after all.


How is this being tracked?


----------



## Acela150

ThirdRail is “in the know”.


----------



## tonijustine

Acela150 said:


> ThirdRail is “in the know”.



I don’t doubt it. I am just trying to figure out ETA in Elkhart so I can see it on my hometown webcam. But I also have a meeting tomorrow morning and don’t want to be up too late. I have a conundrum.

Thanks!


----------



## PerRock

Here is my video of it leaving Toledo. Left around 8:30pm.


peter


----------



## Thirdrail7

jiml said:


> Lot of motive power assigned to this run.



The waiver required riders on both ends.



tonijustine said:


> I don’t doubt it. I am just trying to figure out ETA in Elkhart so I can see it on my hometown webcam.
> Thanks!



It was supposed to be in that area around 1250am but it is +47" at BYN.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Is it at the station in Chicago yet? I'm here now and can't see it, although track 24 isn't visible so it could be there.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Is it at the station in Chicago yet? I'm here now and can't see it, although track 24 isn't visible so it could be there.


Nevermind, it is on Track 2, which is typically exclusively used by BNSF Metra trains. The platform is guarded so it can only be viewed from a distance.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Pictures from CUS


----------



## CraigDK

A video from a slightly different angle.


----------



## Thirdrail7

It's closing in on FMD.


----------



## jiml

Side question for those who might know: Is there any documentation of the Hornell facility available (books, articles) that show its history, the existing railroad in the area, etc.? I'm somewhat familiar with the area and find it fascinating.


----------



## cocojacoby

So what happened to the powercar fairings? Are they really going to settle for a flat sided powercar and rounded coaches? Alstom's similar trains (AGV) look so sleek - almost beautiful. This American version already looks outdated and hobbled together.


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> Side question for those who might know: Is there any documentation of the Hornell facility available (books, articles) that show its history, the existing railroad in the area, etc.? I'm somewhat familiar with the area and find it fascinating.


You may find this article interesting:

https://www.ble-t.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=5156



cocojacoby said:


> So what happened to the powercar fairings? Are they really going to settle for a flat sided powercar and rounded coaches? Alstom's similar trains (AGV) look so sleek - almost beautiful. This American version already looks outdated and hobbled together.



Actually these trains are more similar to TGVs than AGVs, so in that sense they are one generation older than AGVs. These are essentially a standard TGV powered by two power heads, with tilt system added. They do not have distributed power like AGVs do.


----------



## PerRock

jis said:


> Actually these trains are more similar to TGVs than AGVs, so in that sense they are one generation older than AGVs. These are essentially a standard TGV powered by two power heads, with tilt system added. They do not have distributed power like AGVs do.



The French counterpart, the Avelia Horizon, looks to have straight-sided cars. https://lerail.com/storage/Local Press Files/5725/thumb-5725.jpg

I tweeted at Alstom yesterday evening asking... but they've not responded (I don't expect them to).

peter


----------



## Devil's Advocate

cocojacoby said:


> So what happened to the powercar fairings? Are they really going to settle for a flat sided powercar and rounded coaches? Alstom's similar trains (AGV) look so sleek - almost beautiful. This American version already looks outdated and hobbled together.


In my opinion the original Acela is genuinely attractive but the replacement looks really clumsy to me. I find most HSR trains to be at least mildly handsome but this thing is just plain ugly. I'm guessing this is due in part to the CEM system required by American law but I could be wrong.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,
This news article states that the testing of the train at Pueblo will last nine months. It also has a great photo of the train on the new NS bridge in New York!

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/a...m_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=12925


----------



## John Bredin

I like the color scheme. It's a bit old-school, but I think it's rich-looking.
I'm curious if the door colors mean anything: one red door, a bunch of silver doors, and one blue door with no window. Oddly, the windowless door is not on the first or last car, which probably means it isn't a baggage door. Emergency door for the cafe or food-service car?
While flat-sided power-cars look a little weird in contrast to the rest of the trainset, I don't think it sinks to the level of being ugly.

Loved the videos, but giggled at the news clip when the announcer mispronounced Acela.


----------



## jis

Red Door is First Class. Silver Doors are Coach Class. Very European. No Yellow band along the roof line for First Class though.


----------



## Thirdrail7




----------



## Acela150

I’m on it!


----------



## jrud

PerRock said:


> The French counterpart, the Avelia Horizon, looks to have straight-sided cars. https://lerail.com/storage/Local Press Files/5725/thumb-5725.jpg
> 
> I tweeted at Alstom yesterday evening asking... but they've not responded (I don't expect them to).
> 
> peter




It’s been a while, but I am pretty certain that I remember reading that the Alstom (Avelia Liberty) Acela trains were going to be the first to use the latest generation of short power cars with others to follow such as the Horizon. Based on that, these could be plausible:

1. They were designed to the most restrictive combination of loading gauges. Hence, the slab sides to match the Horizons.
2. To make design etc. easier, Alstom might have decided not to add special side fairings and spoil commonality. 
3. The Acela cars are tilting. The non-tilting power cars are not going to smoothly fair into the passenger cars as the cars tilt even if they did when they were straight. 
4. The front edge of the first passenger car may be in the train’s boundary layer and not as important from a resistance perspective. 
5. A quick look at newer Japanese Shinkansens shows very strange noses because of aerodynamics with tunnels being especially annoying. I don’t think the tunnels are the driving factor on the NEC, but straight resistance should be. Unfortunately, physics doesn’t care about aesthetics. 
6. Drawings do show a pretty substantial crash energy absorption system in the nose of the Alstom power cars. This probably had a noticeable effect on the design also. 

Just a few suggestions. 

BTW. The few non-rail fans I showed pictures of the new Acela to were positively impressed. We may be prejudiced toward the looks of an EMD E or F. Or, in my case, late New York Central steam. 

TTFN.


----------



## Acela150

A post on TrainOrders mentions that Tuesday at 8am is the next pick up bound for Philly.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> A post on TrainOrders mentions that Tuesday at 8am is the next pick up bound for Philly.



There was some wavering but I think it will still occur as scheduled. It'll be a one day trip from the plant to PHL. It will travel over the NS to HAR, then the Keystone Line with the same provisions (waivers) as the move to Pueblo.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> It'll be a one day trip from the plant to PHL.



That's if we're lucky!


----------



## Acela150

Any updates on the movement tomorrow will be greatly appreciated. I'll do my best to get out and get this movement somewhere in the Philly area if it's at a reasonable hour. But I honestly don't see that happening.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> Any updates on the movement tomorrow will be greatly appreciated. I'll do my best to get out and get this movement somewhere in the Philly area if it's at a reasonable hour. But I honestly don't see that happening.




It's not due in PHL until close to 11pm but it may run early.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> It's not due in PHL until close to 11pm but it may run early.



That’s what I figured. I’d be stunned if it runs “early”.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> That’s what I figured. I’d be stunned if it runs “early”.



If PA sets a curfew, it may have to get in before 8:00 pm. [emoji6]


----------



## DSS&A

I found this photo posted online ofbthe trian on the Nicholson viaduct. He posted other nice photos of the train movement.


----------



## Acela150

The trainset is in Penn Coach Yard in Philadelphia. I passed by around 1230 this afternoon and the Pantograph was up on one Power Car and some skirts were up on some cars. I read in TrainOrders that APD was chasing railfans out of the parking garage all day yesterday. So it’s advisable to stay away for now. I’ll also mention that the trainset is not in a good spot for Photos currently. I almost went yesterday but I’m glad that I didn’t. I figured that APD would be doing such things. Which cracks me up. They don’t want people taking pictures of something that’s going to be photographed anyway. Lol! I’ll never understand I guess. 

So bottom line, they’re doing some static inspections and don’t goto PHL to take photos for now.


----------



## jrud

FYI. The Bill Christian photos on Flickr start at: 
Note that this appears to be the final paint scheme.


----------



## JohannFarley

Despite the weird thing going on with the different shape engine/cars which I know has been talked about a lot, I really think this scheme is miles better than the original Acela. Much more modern, although i guess the original scheme was a product of its time.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> I read in TrainOrders that APD was chasing railfans out of the parking garage all day yesterday.



Isn't that a private garage? I wouldn't think APD had jurisdiction.


----------



## jrud

JohannFarley said:


> Despite the weird thing going on with the different shape engine/cars which I know has been talked about a lot, I really think this scheme is miles better than the original Acela. Much more modern, although i guess the original scheme was a product of its time.



FWIW, I tend to agree. Much of the time people are looking at the side of the train anyway. Photographers tend to worry about the angled shots. 

With the dots and solid blue, does anyone else see a vague family resemblance to the Amtrak Midwest scheme? I personally like the new Acela scheme better, but they don’t appear to be totally different.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Isn't that a private garage? I wouldn't think APD had jurisdiction.



So I believe, and take this with a grain of salt... That the Garage and the Cira Center are owned by Amtrak. I know someone who can look into the public city property records to give me a firm answer. But considering that the trainset is on Amtrak Property I guess it's fair game.


----------



## Acela150

Ok, I looked into who owns the Cira Center and the Garage, and the Answer is Brandywine Real Estate.


----------



## jrud

I saw a mention on another forum (on the purchase of 137 (now 146) Siemens single level cars) of a possible test last night (31st-1st) for the Acela on NEC. Any word of a test actually taking place?

BTW, there is a little interesting Acela information in the 2020 Amtrak Procurement Presentation at: Section305Committee.aspx .

Unrelated question: Am I going to run off the end of Netflix before this month stuck at home is over?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jrud said:


> I saw a mention on another forum (on the purchase of 137 (now 146) Siemens single level cars) of a possible test last night (31st-1st) for the Acela on NEC. Any word of a test actually taking place?
> 
> BTW, there is some interesting Acela information in the 2020 Amtrak Procurement Presentation at: Section305Committee.aspx .
> 
> Unrelated question: Am I going to run off the end of Netflix before this month stuck at home is over?


The Acela should be making a test run tonight between Phila and just across the Susquehanna River (between Perryville and Aberdeen) . Expected to follow #55 out of Phila and return before #90


----------



## cocojacoby

Looks like Amtrak had to conduct focus groups to realize that people don't want to ride backwards or have no place to sit in the cafe. Wow, who could have figured that out?

Amtrak Focus Group:

Potential Challenges
(may need talking points)
• Sharing pull down sunshades
• One restroom vs two per car
• *Lack of seating in café car*
• Flow of traffic at point of sale
• *50/50 seating*

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... 281%29.pdf


----------



## tricia

jrud said:


> I saw a mention on another forum (on the purchase of 137 (now 146) Siemens single level cars) of a possible test last night (31st-1st) for the Acela on NEC. Any word of a test actually taking place?
> 
> BTW, there is a little interesting Acela information in the 2020 Amtrak Procurement Presentation at: Section305Committee.aspx .
> 
> Unrelated question: Am I going to run off the end of Netflix before this month stuck at home is over?



For something different, Appalashop says "we're making our entire digital catalogue free to rent. Just use code "watchparty" when you rent a film over Vimeo — and let us know what you choose to watch!"


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> The Acela should be making a test run tonight between Phila and just across the Susquehanna River (between Perryville and Aberdeen) . Expected to follow #55 out of Phila and return before #90



Drove past 30th Street around 3pm and the pan was up on one power car and the blue flag in the window.


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> The Acela should be making a test run tonight between Phila and just across the Susquehanna River (between Perryville and Aberdeen) . Expected to follow #55 out of Phila and return before #90



Yeah well thanks to your text it seems like someone decided to be a jerk and pull an April fools joke.. It's not happening.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cocojacoby said:


> Looks like Amtrak had to conduct focus groups to realize that people don't want to ride backwards or have no place to sit in the cafe. Wow, who could have figured that out?
> 
> Amtrak Focus Group:
> 
> Potential Challenges
> (may need talking points)
> • Sharing pull down sunshades
> • One restroom vs two per car
> • *Lack of seating in café car*
> • Flow of traffic at point of sale
> • *50/50 seating*
> 
> http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... 281%29.pdf



No...they've been aware of it since it was first proposed. Notice it doesn't say "points to reconsider." It says "may need talking points," which will be used to smooth it over and tell you to get over it.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jrud said:


> I saw a mention on another forum (on the purchase of 137 (now 146) Siemens single level cars) of a possible test last night (31st-1st) for the Acela on NEC. Any word of a test actually taking place?



That was actually posted on this board in the appropriate thread. However, they wisely pulled the plug. Even though the projects should move forward, I think this is a terrible time to test new equipment.


----------



## daybeers

Interesting there is only one restroom on the new sets vs the two on the current Acela sets as well as Amfleets. I have only ridden the Acela twice, so I can't comment very much on restroom usage there, maybe someone else can, but I know on Amfleets, at least on the NEC, both restrooms are sometimes in use, and there can even be people waiting.


----------



## OBS

daybeers said:


> Interesting there is only one restroom on the new sets vs the two on the current Acela sets as well as Amfleets. I have only ridden the Acela twice, so I can't comment very much on restroom usage there, maybe someone else can, but I know on Amfleets, at least on the NEC, both restrooms are sometimes in use, and there can even be people waiting.


It WILL be a problem.....


----------



## daybeers

OBS said:


> It WILL be a problem.....


All about saving $$$$!


----------



## jrud

OBS said:


> It WILL be a problem.....


Although, it certainly doesn’t completely compensate, the shorter cars on the #NewAcela with fewer people per car means it is not quite as bad as it seems.


----------



## Thirdrail7

daybeers said:


> Interesting there is only one restroom on the new sets vs the two on the current Acela sets as well as Amfleets. I have only ridden the Acela twice, so I can't comment very much on restroom usage there, maybe someone else can, but I know on Amfleets, at least on the NEC, both restrooms are sometimes in use, and there can even be people waiting.



When they started drafting this train and the new equipment plans, they actually had a contractor come out and monitor the bathroom usage over the Thanksgiving travel period. They monitored the existing Acela and the Regional trains over the turns throughout the travel period to see if it was feasible to eliminate one bathroom. As long as they are serviced, it shouldn't be that much of an issue.....under NORMAL circumstances. 



daybeers said:


> All about saving $$$$!




It is all about capacity. The ADA mandated bathrooms take up quite a bit of room. So does the accessible area. As such, cutting out one restroom per increases the area available for seating. With fixed seating, you don't need space to turn the seats so you don't have to compromise as much pitch.


----------



## cocojacoby

Thirdrail7 said:


> When they started drafting this train and the new equipment plans, they actually had a contractor come out and monitor the bathroom usage over the Thanksgiving travel period. They monitored the existing Acela and the Regional trains over the turns throughout the travel period to see if it was feasible to eliminate one bathroom. As long as they are serviced, it shouldn't be that much of an issue.....under NORMAL circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is all about capacity. The ADA mandated bathrooms take up quite a bit of room. So does the accessible area. As such, cutting out one restroom per increases the area available for seating. With fixed seating, you don't need space to turn the seats so you don't have to compromise as much pitch.



But is it necessary to make each car exactly the same? In such a fixed consist couldn't they have an ADA restroom and ADA seating area in every other car? Then they could have had a double restroom module in every other car increasing facilities by 50%? Actually maybe even four restrooms at the end of a few cars.

Is there a percentage of seats that has to be ADA? How many ADA passengers are on an average Acela anyway? Did they observe that?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cocojacoby said:


> But is it necessary to make each car exactly the same? In such a fixed consist couldn't they have an ADA restroom and ADA seating area in every other car? Then they could have had a double restroom module in every other car increasing facilities by 50%? Actually maybe even four restrooms at the end of a few cars.
> 
> Is there a percentage of seats that has to be ADA? How many ADA passengers are on an average Acela anyway? Did they observe that?


Counting number of ADA passengers would be the same as counting the number of men, number of women, number of <race>, etc. Maybe only 2 ADA passengers are riding during the time period counted, but may moe would be riding if there were more seats/space for them.


----------



## me_little_me

daybeers said:


> Interesting there is only one restroom on the new sets vs the two on the current Acela sets as well as Amfleets. I have only ridden the Acela twice, so I can't comment very much on restroom usage there, maybe someone else can, but I know on Amfleets, at least on the NEC, both restrooms are sometimes in use, and there can even be people waiting.


I guess Amtrak will have to "dump" they're new ad campaign: "When you have to GO FAST, take the Acela!" ☺


----------



## Thirdrail7

cocojacoby said:


> But is it necessary to make each car exactly the same? In such a fixed consist couldn't they have an ADA restroom and ADA seating area in every other car?



No...that is in violation of ADA rules.


*(d) Passenger coaches or food service cars shall have the number of spaces complying with §1192.125(d)(2) and the number of spaces complying with §1192.125(d)(3), as required by 49 CFR 37.91.

The ADA requires that intercity rail trains provide a number of spaces for parking wheelchairs (for individuals who wish to remain in their wheelchairs) and a number of spaces for folding and storing wheelchairs (for individuals who wish to transfer to a seat) in single-level passenger coaches and food service cars equal to: (a) one half the number of coaches in the train by July 26, 1995; and (b) the total number of coaches in the train by July 26, 2000. Not more than two of each type of space may be located in any coach or food service car. Each coach or food service car on which wheelchair spaces are provided must have a wheelchair accessible restroom if restrooms are provided for the general public.*



cocojacoby said:


> Then they could have had a double restroom module in every other car increasing facilities by 50%? Actually maybe even four restrooms at the end of a few cars.



Again, that would be in violation of ADA rules.

*
§1192.123 Restrooms
(a) If a restroom is provided for the general public, and an accessible restroom is required by §1192.111(a) and (e), it shall be designed so as to allow a person using a wheelchair or mobility aid to enter and use such restroom as specified in paragraphs (a)(1) through (5) of this section.

The ADA requires that single-level passenger coaches and food service cars with wheelchair spaces provide a wheelchair accessible restroom. This restroom must be located adjacent to spaces where wheelchairs may be positioned or stored. Single-level dining cars, single-level lounge cars, and the lower level of bi-level lounge cars are required to provide wheelchair accessible restrooms only if restrooms are provided for all passengers. *



cocojacoby said:


> Is there a percentage of seats that has to be ADA?



As indicated above, there must be an ADA accessible area in the equipment by 2000. All new equipment must have an accessible area.



cocojacoby said:


> How many ADA passengers are on an average Acela anyway?




It is irrelevant since as noted above, you have to have an accessible area in each piece of equipment by 2000. 




cocojacoby said:


> Did they observe that?



Probably not since that is not what they were supposed to observe.


----------



## cocojacoby

See how do airlines get away with it?


----------



## PVD

Airliner rules are different. There are separate laws that cover air travel (separate from airports, as an example).


----------



## Ziv

What the world needs is a good design for a standup, easily cleaned, unisex urinal that is acceptable to most women. Given the physical aspects of it, it might not be easy to design or gain acceptance, but adding a urinal takes up a lot less space than a handicapped toilet and it could be added in addition to the handicapped bathroom, thereby reducing the usage of the handicapped toilet immensely.
It seems like baseball stadiums have a design that works for a lot of women, if memory serves. I have never seen them, though.


----------



## daybeers

Thirdrail7 said:


> When they started drafting this train and the new equipment plans, they actually had a contractor come out and monitor the bathroom usage over the Thanksgiving travel period. They monitored the existing Acela and the Regional trains over the turns throughout the travel period to see if it was feasible to eliminate one bathroom. As long as they are serviced, it shouldn't be that much of an issue.....under NORMAL circumstances.
> 
> 
> Daybeers said:
> 
> 
> 
> All about saving $$$$!
> 
> 
> 
> It is all about capacity. The ADA mandated bathrooms take up quite a bit of room. So does the accessible area. As such, cutting out one restroom per increases the area available for seating. With fixed seating, you don't need space to turn the seats so you don't have to compromise as much pitch.
Click to expand...

Normal circumstances meaning not at super peak times like Thanksgiving?


----------



## Thirdrail7

daybeers said:


> Normal circumstances meaning not at super peak times like Thanksgiving?



Even during super busy periods, as long as they are serviced at the turns, they should be able to handle it. However, that is part of normal circumstances. An abnormal circumstance would be an en-route manipulation where the train didn't reach its endpoint. Another example is if the train is severely disrupted. 

The amount of bathrooms isn't as important as the waste capacity tanks.


----------



## OBS

Thirdrail7 said:


> Even during super busy periods, as long as they are serviced at the turns, they should be able to handle it. However, that is part of normal circumstances. An abnormal circumstance would be an en-route manipulation where the train didn't reach its endpoint. Another example is if the train is severely disrupted.
> 
> The amount of bathrooms isn't as important as the waste capacity tanks.


The current equipment has no problem going all day without being dumped. It's the issues with the doors coming off the tracks/being disabled and the vacuum pump failures that take bathrooms out of service that cause the problems....


----------



## me_little_me

OBS said:


> The current equipment has no problem going all day without being dumped. It's the issues with the doors coming off the tracks/being disabled and the vacuum pump failures that take bathrooms out of service that cause the problems....


Ad the people that use them improperly (putting items in that don't belong causing clogs and smells) and unwillingness of staf fto clean them often enough (I've seen them complain to the passengers then lock them rather than clean them).


----------



## Acela150

A post on another forum indicate that the new Acela set in Philly won't touch the main line until PTC is installed on it. 

I hope that I'm wrong, but this kinda seems like BS. It doesn't make any sense to me that a brand new piece of equipment wouldn't come with a critical component installed by the manufacturer.


----------



## west point

PTC IT is so specialized that as a customer I would not want anyone installing it except the most capable persons. Lets see 28 train sets that is 54 installations over a 2 - 3 year time span. Not good!


----------



## Ziv

If you are Amtrak and you are frequently having trouble with the toilets because people put items in them that shouldn't be there, items that make the toilet lose functionality, maybe the next time you order cars with toilets, which is nearly every car, you ought to stipulate a more robust design. Getting an employee to clean and do minor repairs to a toilet seems to be beyond the ability of Amtrak, maybe they can buy a tougher toilet next time.



me_little_me said:


> Ad the people that use them improperly (putting items in that don't belong causing clogs and smells) and unwillingness of staff to clean them often enough (I've seen them complain to the passengers then lock them rather than clean them).


----------



## Acela150

west point said:


> PTC IT is so specialized that as a customer I would not want anyone installing it except the most capable persons. Lets see 28 train sets that is 54 installations over a 2 - 3 year time span. Not good!



Fair point. But, Alstom is a key contractor and developer of ACSES, the PTC used on the NEC. And IINM, Siemens installed ACSES on the ACS units when they were being built. 

I could understand your point more if these were something like P42's. Which need to have PTC installed and they've been around for years. But this is something brand new. Even the new Chargers for Amtrak will have PTC installed for each system used. Again that's IINM. 

So to me non of this makes to much sense. If it's not installed on the set in Pueblo and Philly. I'm sure there is a very good reason. I can think of at least one, which is Software. Perhaps Amtrak wants to install the software on the set and make the appropriate mods that way the other sets can have the mods made at Alstom in Hornell. But that's the only logical reason I can think of.


----------



## cirdan

AmtrakBlue said:


> Counting number of ADA passengers would be the same as counting the number of men, number of women, number of <race>, etc. Maybe only 2 ADA passengers are riding during the time period counted, but may moe would be riding if there were more seats/space for them.



Also, the number of people with ADA requirements might vary depending on any special events going on. Say the special olympics, or even an ADA march in DC. Would Amtrak turn people away because they have disabilities?


----------



## frequentflyer

Amtrak Continues to Advance Testing of New Acela Fleet in Pueblo, Colo. - Amtrak Media


Images/Video courtesy of TTCI. Amtrak’s new Acela fleet, scheduled to enter service on the Northeast Corridor (NEC) in 2021, continues to progress with




media.amtrak.com





The new set has already been tested at speed.


----------



## Acela150

The set that is in Penn Coach Yard finally had the nose cone closed yesterday afternoon, along with a bunch of workers in orange vests around it when I passed by around 430ish. 

On a side note, hopefully with testing now reaching High Speeds at TTCI the set in Philly will be able to touch the main line here soon.


----------



## Amtrak_Carolinian_2020

Any idea what type of horn and bell the Avelia Liberty will have? I assume the same K5LA/E-bell combo that the new Siemens locomotives have.


----------



## railiner

Amtrak_Carolinian_2020 said:


> Any idea what type of horn and bell the Avelia Liberty will have? I assume the same K5LA/E-bell combo that the new Siemens locomotives have.


I don't know, but your question has got me thinking...
Why hasn't someone come out with a powerful electronic speaker(s) that can replicate any horn, bell, or other sounds necessary for operation?
May or may not be cheaper, lighter, use less energy than actual devices....could be able to adjust volume to suit different locations and train speeds....


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Thirdrail7 said:


> No...that is in violation of ADA rules.
> 
> 
> *(d) Passenger coaches or food service cars shall have the number of spaces complying with §1192.125(d)(2) and the number of spaces complying with §1192.125(d)(3), as required by 49 CFR 37.91.
> 
> The ADA requires that intercity rail trains provide a number of spaces for parking wheelchairs (for individuals who wish to remain in their wheelchairs) and a number of spaces for folding and storing wheelchairs (for individuals who wish to transfer to a seat) in single-level passenger coaches and food service cars equal to: (a) one half the number of coaches in the train by July 26, 1995; and (b) the total number of coaches in the train by July 26, 2000. Not more than two of each type of space may be located in any coach or food service car. Each coach or food service car on which wheelchair spaces are provided must have a wheelchair accessible restroom if restrooms are provided for the general public.*
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that would be in violation of ADA rules.
> 
> 
> *§1192.123 Restrooms
> (a) If a restroom is provided for the general public, and an accessible restroom is required by §1192.111(a) and (e), it shall be designed so as to allow a person using a wheelchair or mobility aid to enter and use such restroom as specified in paragraphs (a)(1) through (5) of this section.
> 
> The ADA requires that single-level passenger coaches and food service cars with wheelchair spaces provide a wheelchair accessible restroom. This restroom must be located adjacent to spaces where wheelchairs may be positioned or stored. Single-level dining cars, single-level lounge cars, and the lower level of bi-level lounge cars are required to provide wheelchair accessible restrooms only if restrooms are provided for all passengers. *



Actually, I know you might know trains but you aren’t good at legalese. That law requires 1) as many handicapped spaces as cars on a train, 2) no more than two spaces in any given car, and 3) an ADA restroom in each car so equipped with such a space and a restroom. That means if You have a 10 car train, you must have 10 wheelchair spaces. You can have up to 2 spaces in any given car. If a car has wheelchair accessibility and a restroom, it must have an ADA restroom.

Technically, you could in fact build a train with ten cars, 5 having two wheelchair spaces and no restroom at all, and 5 having no wheelchair access and 20 non-ADA restrooms and meet that requirement to the letter. You could certainly build a train set with 10 cars, 5 with two wheelchair spaces and an ADA restroom, and 5 with no wheelchair access and a non-ADA restroom, and not only meet the letter, but the spirit.


----------



## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> Technically, you could in fact build a train with ten cars, 5 having two wheelchair spaces and no restroom at all, and 5 having no wheelchair access and 20 non-ADA restrooms and meet that requirement to the letter. You could certainly build a train set with 10 cars, 5 with two wheelchair spaces and an ADA restroom, and 5 with no wheelchair access and a non-ADA restroom, and not only meet the letter, but the spirit.


The thing to remember though is that when one has a mind set of "no fixed consist train ever" you buy yourself into the "one wheelchair spot and an ADA restroom per car" syndrome. I am not taking a position on the fixed consist thing this way or that, but just pointing out that base assumptions about the architecture of a train has consequences on what must be placed where to meet the legal requirements.


----------



## jis

This time Set 002 is on Keystone Corridor


----------



## Amtrak_Carolinian_2020

jis said:


> This time Set 002 is on Keystone Corridor



That’s it? That’s the horn?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

jis said:


> The thing to remember though is that when one has a mind set of "no fixed consist train ever" you buy yourself into the "one wheelchair spot and an ADA restroom per car" syndrome. I am not taking a position on the fixed consist thing this way or that, but just pointing out that base assumptions about the architecture of a train has consequences on what must be placed where to meet the legal requirements.



I don't disagree with you, I was just pointing out that what third rail was saying about the regulation was inaccurate. The regulation is not the specific cause of an ADA restroom per car.


----------



## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> I don't disagree with you, I was just pointing out that what third rail was saying about the regulation was inaccurate. The regulation is not the specific cause of an ADA restroom per car.


Heh heh. I was just looking at it from Thirdrail's mind set, having known him for a while. It is quite likely that the scenario that you posited had not occurred to him as a possible way of structuring a train, that could be operated viably in the Amtrak system, never mind th Talgos and Acela Is.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> The thing to remember though is that when one has a mind set of "no fixed consist train ever" you buy yourself into the "one wheelchair spot and an ADA restroom per car" syndrome. I am not taking a position on the fixed consist thing this way or that, but just pointing out that base assumptions about the architecture of a train has consequences on what must be placed where to meet the legal requirements.




Even fixed consists are an issue and I guess this is where the whole "I might know trains" thing comes into play, but from an operational point of view it is best to spread your requirements. This can ring true with fixed consists too. Let's take this point:



Green Maned Lion said:


> Actually, I know you might know trains but you aren’t good at legalese. That law requires 1) as many handicapped spaces as cars on a train, 2) no more than two spaces in any given car, and 3) an ADA restroom in each car so equipped with such a space and a restroom. That means if You have a 10 car train, you must have 10 wheelchair spaces. You can have up to 2 spaces in any given car. If a car has wheelchair accessibility and a restroom, it must have an ADA restroom.
> 
> 
> Technically, you could in fact build a train with ten cars, 5 having two wheelchair spaces and no restroom at all, and 5 having no wheelchair access and 20 non-ADA restrooms and meet that requirement to the letter. You could certainly build a train set with 10 cars, 5 with two wheelchair spaces and an ADA restroom, and 5 with no wheelchair access and a non-ADA restroom, and not only meet the letter, but the spirit




Well, I may not be good at legalese, and I'm not a subject matter expert...but that is why they exist because there is what is written, the intent and the application. I'm pretty sure what you're saying is gibberish because it seems you didn't include the other parts of the CFR into the equation. I'm not a lawyer like you I suppose, but as the subject matters experts have indicated, the portion of *§ 1192.111* mentions:


*(5) Restrooms complying with § 1192.123 shall be provided in single-level rail passenger coaches and food service cars adjacent to the accessible seating locations required by paragraph (d) of this section. Accessible restrooms are required in dining and lounge cars only if restrooms are provided for other passengers.*

As interpreted (and it looks pretty clear without the interpretation), the above means that any accessible area will need an ADA accessible bathroom adjacent to the accessible seating area. It is not an option. It is not if you have an accessible area and IF you have a bathroom, it must be accessible. It is if you have an accessible area, you MUST have an accessible bathroom adjacent to it. Even though I'm not a subject matter expert, I'm at a loss to see how you think you could have two wheelchair spaces without an ADA accessible (or any other type of) bathroom. I guess we should just move someone that may be in a wheelchair through a few cars when and if they need to use the facilities. This doesn't make sense and I'm pretty sure that if someone in a wheelchair needed to use that bathroom and had to trek through a car or two definitely isn't "the spirit of the law" and it likely isn't the intent...especially if you put part d into the equation.

*(d) Passenger coaches or food service cars shall have the number of spaces complying with § 1192.125(d)(2) and the number of spaces complying with § 1192.125(d)(3), as required by 49 CFR 37.91.*

As interpreted, each car will have an accessible area....meaning you'd need an accessible restroom as described in 1192.123 There is a reason why the regulation makes sure they can't cram all the ADA into one car. This regulation (intended for intercity travel) recognizes that Amtrak has variable consists and it would be easy to have something occur to an accessible piece of equipment and you end up with a non-complying consist.

Even a fixed consist can suffer this problem. What if there is an incident and they need to remove the accessible cars from the consist for a prolonged period of time? Remember the 5 car Acela set that ran around for roughly 6 months?

To tie this into the original conversation, (which the people that we're discussing this in context seemed to understand), I was speaking in the context of the post. I was specifically referring to what I believed and still believe was a question regarding why do you need to eliminate bathrooms. My response was ADA restrooms take room and they wanted to create space.

The follow-up question as I understood it was why do you need to make every car the same and couldn't you make an ADA equipped bathroom in every other car instead of every car which I took to mean you'd have a regular restroom in one car and the next car would have an ADA restroom. Well, the answer to that is no, since if you're putting a restroom in a car, it must be ADA accessible. This is not absurd since this whole exchange was initiated by the reduction in the number of restrooms

Which is exactly the regulation I quoted.

My quote for the ADA was to show that each train must ADA accessible seats....which, again if you read in the context of the quotes, was being questioned.

I'm sorry you're two months late to the party but during the actual exchange, I answered what I believed to be the intent of his posts.

Feel free to follow up with the law department though. 
.
PS: Welcome back.


----------



## PerRock

Amtrak_Carolinian_2020 said:


> That’s it? That’s the horn?



European train gets European-style horn I guess.

peter


----------



## cocojacoby

The new Ultra Domes built by Stadler for the Rocky Mountaineer have a narrower profile ADA restroom similar to existing Amfleet cars. You can put two regular bathrooms across the aisle and have three bathrooms in the space of one Acela II bathroom.

Why would new Amtrak passenger cars need to go with a restroom that allows full rotation if new Rocky Mountaineer's do not? Is it an actual requirement or no? Anyone know?


----------



## west point

About that horn. Maybe that should be on all the new Acella-2s. That way persons hearing the horn would know a high speed train was approaching.. Maybe a certain Senator would not have nearly been hit ?


----------



## railiner

cocojacoby said:


> The new Ultra Domes built by Stadler for the Rocky Mountaineer have a narrower profile ADA restroom similar to existing Amfleet cars. You can put two regular bathrooms across the aisle and have three bathrooms in the space of one Acela II bathroom.
> 
> Why would new Amtrak passenger cars need to go with a restroom that allows full rotation if new Rocky Mountaineer's do not? Is it an actual requirement or no? Anyone know?View attachment 17604


Not sure if "ADA" specs apply to Rocky Mountaineer...isn't that a Canadian train?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Not sure if "ADA" specs apply to Rocky Mountaineer...isn't that a Canadian train?


Yeah, Rocky Mountaineer has to abide by whatever the Canadian regulations says about such things and not what the US regulations says about such things. It is though not unusual for many US people to forget that there is a world outside the US where US regulations do not apply.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The solution is simplicity itself! We will just threaten and cajole other countries into simply accepting US regulations. You know, as opposed to the US accepting a variety of common best practices regulations that are more commonly incorporated across various countries than they are incorporated across various US states.


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> Not sure if "ADA" specs apply to Rocky Mountaineer...isn't that a Canadian train?


I haven't researched it, but I'd bet the specs are fairly close in both countries. Those RM cars have run in the US (to Seattle).


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> I haven't researched it, but I'd bet the specs are fairly close in both countries. Those RM cars have run in the US (to Seattle).


They are close but not the same. Though not about disabled people, but one glaring example of difference is in signaling , control and safety requirements. Trackage on which 100mph is allowed in Canada contain many segments where even 79mph would not be allowed in the US. The Renn Fleet would not have been allowed in the US without going through a long drawn out exception process.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> They are close but not the same. Though not about disabled people, but one glaring example of difference is in signaling , control and safety requirements.



I was thinking only of disability requirements. You're correct of course.



jis said:


> The Renn Fleet would not have been allowed in the US without going through a long drawn out exception process.



Shame too, since I'll be surprised if those Ren sleepers and diners return to service on VIA after all this and they're not that old. They have no replacements for the coaches and VIA1 versions, so they're likely to hang around a bit longer.


----------



## jrud

west point said:


> About that horn. Maybe that should be on all the new Acella-2s. That way persons hearing the horn would know a high speed train was approaching.. Maybe a certain Senator would not have nearly been hit ?


I think that this was posted earlier, but note the horns.





__





Redirect Notice






images.app.goo.gl


----------



## Acela150

Friday afternoon I was able to catch the return trip from Lancaster at Overbrook. 

Yesterday the trainset went to DC. I've heard two different things regarding the trip to DC. One version is for a media event and the other being it's going to Ivy City for Employee Familiarization, etc. Personally I'm more towards the media event story as it comes from a former employee who is reliable. 

I'd post some photos, but the files are way to large.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> Friday afternoon I was able to catch the return trip from Lancaster at Overbrook.
> 
> Yesterday the trainset went to DC. I've heard two different things regarding the trip to DC. One version is for a media event and the other being it's going to Ivy City for Employee Familiarization, etc. Personally I'm more towards the media event story as it comes from a former employee who is reliable.
> 
> I'd post some photos, but the files are way to large.


Just heard it will be heading back north this afternoon. Timing is iffy due to the trespasser strike earlier in MD


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Somewhat relevant to this (although I can't find the link now), I was recently looking up something in the ADA and noticed that there was a call for comment on proposed rules for transit vehicles - rail specifically iirc. If I can find it I will update and post it.


----------



## Acela150

Update from the NGEC who had meetings in May. Nothing new that we don't already know. Although they mention that their are some PTC issues that are being worked out on TS 2 in Philly. 

Speaking on TS 2 in Philly. Does anyone know if the TS is fully outfitted? Or will it need to go back and have the interiors installed?


----------



## Thirdrail7

It is not fully outfitted.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> It is not fully outfitted.



Roger that. Thanks.


----------



## Acela150

Update from the NGEC. The transit in Philly tested at 125 MPH. But has been sidelined for now with PTC issues, which for something new isn't all to surprising.


----------



## west point

- Amtrak Equipment Procurement Update – as of 6-16-20: 
On the Acela: The first Trainset is at Pueblo at TTCI for testing. It has reached speeds up to 165 mph on the test track. The second Trainset has done a few early runs out of Philly a couple of times and has reached 125 mph. There are still a few PTC issues that are being worked on. 
On the Charger Locomotives: The locomotive continues to be under construction with little impact from the COVID 19 pandemic. It remains on schedule for February-March (2021) delivery of the first test locomotive on the NEC. 
On the Intercity Trainset Procurement: This procurement is proceeding, but it is at a stage where it remains in the “cone of silence”. 
procurement Update – as of 6-16-20: 
On the Acela: The first Trainset is at Pueblo at TTCI for testing. It has reached speeds up to 165 mph on the test track. The second Trainset has done a few early runs out of Philly a couple of times and has reached 125 mph. There are still a few PTC issues that are being worked on. 
On the Charger Locomotives: The locomotive continues to be under construction with little impact from the COVID 19 pandemic. It remains on schedule for February-March (2021) delivery of the first test locomotive on the NEC. 
On the Intercity Trainset Procurement: This procurement is proceeding, but it is at a stage where it remains in the “cone of silence”.


----------



## EchoSierra

What more do they have to test on the NEC for the Chargers? I thought they already tested them on the NEC when they borrowed the one from IDOT a few years ago.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

EchoSierra said:


> What more do they have to test on the NEC for the Chargers? I thought they already tested them on the NEC when they borrowed the one from IDOT a few years ago.


The locomotives designed for LD service are slightly different from the current corridor locomotives.


----------



## Acela150

EchoSierra said:


> What more do they have to test on the NEC for the Chargers? I thought they already tested them on the NEC when they borrowed the one from IDOT a few years ago.



The Charger that tested on the NEC did not have ACSES or Cab Signals for NEC running. The Chargers that are being built for Amtrak will have multiple PTC systems ACSES, ITMS, etc. All of these will need to be tested and debugged before Revenue service can begin.


----------



## daybeers

Acela150 said:


> Update from the NGEC. The transit in Philly tested at 125 MPH. But has been sidelined for now with PTC issues, which for something new isn't all to surprising.





west point said:


> - Amtrak Equipment Procurement Update – as of 6-16-20:
> On the Acela: The first Trainset is at Pueblo at TTCI for testing. It has reached speeds up to 165 mph on the test track. The second Trainset has done a few early runs out of Philly a couple of times and has reached 125 mph. There are still a few PTC issues that are being worked on.
> On the Charger Locomotives: The locomotive continues to be under construction with little impact from the COVID 19 pandemic. It remains on schedule for February-March (2021) delivery of the first test locomotive on the NEC.
> On the Intercity Trainset Procurement: This procurement is proceeding, but it is at a stage where it remains in the “cone of silence”.


Any news on NEC North testing? I'd go down to New Haven/somewhere on the shore to see it.


----------



## Acela150

daybeers said:


> Any news on NEC North testing? I'd go down to New Haven/somewhere on the shore to see it.



As it stands now, no. A fairly reliable source on Facebook stated the other day that the trainset will be holding still in Penn Coach Yard until the beginning of the new month. But as with anything you hear on Facebook, take it with a grain of salt. Yesterday I passed by 30th Street and their were some folks working on a Power Car on the roof. The past few times I've passed by, the track that the Trainset is on at the time has had the overhead grounded.


----------



## Acela150

Acela150 said:


> But as with anything you hear on Facebook, take it with a grain of salt.



I'm proving my own point here.. The trainset was out on the Harrisburg Line today.


----------



## Acela150

If one goes to the 12 minute mark the Trainset appears shortly after.


----------



## Acela150

She took a stroll to DC today. Video credit to SuperStar Rendon.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> She took a stroll to DC today. Video credit to SuperStar Rendon.



What's he doing at MY station?  (There was at least one other guy there, but I didn't get the H/U in time to show up...thank goodness considering the heat)


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> What's he doing at MY station?  (There was at least one other guy there, but I didn't get the H/U in time to show up...thank goodness considering the heat)



If it makes you feel better I didn't know about it. I got tossed from the good NEC group. Although I've heard that group isn't "fun" anymore. But even if I did know I had to work today. Do you know when she headed south?


----------



## Agent

Here's a video from August 14 by Fan Railer featuring the new _Acela_ testing in Pennsylvania. Video begins with a clip of the train speeding by. Then at 2:24 the train set is shown again being towed by ACS-64 AMTK 669. Video description says there was a "mechanical fault."


----------



## Acela150

The set was out to Harrisburg a few times last week. It looks like it's been PTC and Cab Signal testing thus far. Testing will be going towards the night time this week AFAIK.


----------



## railiner

Agent said:


> Here's a video from August 14 by Fan Railer featuring the new _Acela_ testing in Pennsylvania. Video begins with a clip of the train speeding by. Then at 2:24 the train set is shown again being towed by ACS-64 AMTK 669. Video description says there was a "mechanical fault."



Nice video....I couldn't help but smile when I saw the "low-tech" red flag used as a marker towards the end of the video....quite a contrast....


----------



## Acela150

railiner said:


> Nice video....I couldn't help but smile when I saw the "low-tech" red flag used as a marker towards the end of the video....quite a contrast....



By rule it counts as a "good marker". I've done it a couple of times working freight.


----------



## railiner

Acela150 said:


> By rule it counts as a "good marker". I've done it a couple of times working freight.


Not disputing that, but hanging from a boxcar is one thing, but seeing it used from a 'state-of-the-art', high speed train is another....


----------



## Acela150

railiner said:


> Not disputing that, but hanging from a boxcar is one thing, but seeing it used from a 'state-of-the-art', high speed train is another....



Trust me, I gotcha.  

In other news... Their is a crew in place as of Yesterday (8/24). Signs up at Race Street at 7pm, off duty at 3am, Monday-Friday. They were out last night and again tonight. Not sure where they are off to tonight. 

Video from last night from SuperStarRendon.


----------



## west point

wonder what that red lght is on the 1st or 2nd car ?


----------



## daybeers

Awesome! It looks great running faster. This may mean we could see high speed testing soon, will it be 186 mph?


----------



## railiner

west point said:


> wonder what that red lght is on the 1st or 2nd car ?


Looks to me more like a white light to illuminate the doorway, perhaps reflecting off the red around it (first class car?)....probably shouldn't be on unless door was open or ajar?


----------



## west point

daybeers said:


> Awesome! It looks great running faster. This may mean we could see high speed testing soon, will it be 186 mph?


According to the requirement of testing to over 10% of regular service that would mean max authorized speed for revenue service would be 170 MPH ? 160 would mean testing to 176. However I feel the higher speed tests would be nice if Amtrak can get some locations track speed above 160 sometime in the future. 

The more difference in speeds from Regional trains the better for overall Amtrak services . IMHO that will attract more passenger to both Acela-2 and Regional trains.


----------



## Fan Railer

Compilation of test runs between Jersey Avenue and Holmesburg Junction over the last couple of nights. Enjoy!


----------



## jis

Here is some information about the horn, quoting Michael Kam's post on Facebook:


> The horn is comprised of a KS2 and a KS4A mounted on separate single chime manifolds located behind a grill adjacent to the headlights. It is operated by a hi-lo selector that only allows one of the trumpets to be blown at a time.


----------



## Fan Railer

KP2021 testing on the night of 9/4/20 between Holmes and Grundy:


----------



## Fan Railer

More testing tonight.


----------



## Thunder

Anyone know when the Pueblo set is coming back? 
I need to schedule to be off when it does


----------



## Acela150

Thunder said:


> Anyone know when the Pueblo set is coming back?
> I need to schedule to be off when it does



If only the railroad cared about railfans and what works for them.


----------



## Thunder

Points to my profile pic and rolls your eyes back.

i am the one that ran it from Chicago to Fort Madison. But hey, thanks for playing .


----------



## Acela150

All I can see in your profile picture is an Engine.


----------



## NTL1991

Test extra 874 is on its way up the corridor now.

PHL 09:10
NYP 11:15
NHV 13:00
BOS 15:35

From what we’re hearing, testing will be between Westerly and Cranston Interlocking on Tuesday and Wednesday, daylight. Can’t confirm a time at this point.

Consist:
2102
3251
3605
3606
3607
3351
3608
3609
3452
2103


----------



## Fan Railer

Compilation of daylight shots from this past week:


----------



## jis

Fan Railer said:


> Compilation of daylight shots from this past week:



That first shot is on the so called Sawtooth Bridge at Kearny Jct. where NJT Morris and Essex Line passes under the NEC with the Midtown Connection tracks seen on the left.


----------



## Palmetto

Thanks! Very enjoyable!


----------



## west point

Certainly the route New Haven - BOS needs mose CAT over the 3rd and sometimes 4th tracks.


----------



## John Santos

They've been talking for years (decades?) about using electric engines or EMUs for the MBTA's commuter lines on the NEC, which are currently all diesel powered. At least some of the stations (e.g. Wickford Junction in the video, which is in Rhode Island, but is served by the T commuter rail) have platform tracks without CAT, so that would have to be fixed. The most recent discussions I've heard involve electrifying the Stoughton branch, which splits off the NEC at Canton Junction, just north of the Neponset viaduct (which has its own very interesting history.) The plan being discussed last year was to extend the Stoughton branch south to Fall River and/or New Bedford and electrify it.


----------



## jis

An inside look at America's fastest train


Amtrak's new, faster Acela trains are expected to start carrying passengers in late 2021. The rollout continues despite the railroad beginning the process of furloughing about 2,000 employees. Kris Van Cleave goes to the Colorado factory for an inside look.



www.cbsnews.com


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> An inside look at America's fastest train
> 
> 
> Amtrak's new, faster Acela trains are expected to start carrying passengers in late 2021. The rollout continues despite the railroad beginning the process of furloughing about 2,000 employees. Kris Van Cleave goes to the Colorado factory for an inside look.
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com


I happened upon this version of the same video, without the banner blocking the bottom of the frame, and apparently higher resolution.


----------



## me_little_me

So are the cars in this train going to have USB ports?


----------



## Ziv

Yes on the USB issue.
" Among other features: additional interior and exterior signage to assist passengers in finding their way, streamlined overhead luggage compartments and doorless luggage space so passengers have fewer surfaces to touch. Power outlets and USB ports are more accessible to both passengers in between the seats. "
Also:
" The new trains are being built with several touchless and self-serve features that Amtrak says should make train travel more appealing in the post-coronavirus era with Americans still fearful of infection spreading through communal surfaces and human contact. "

Washington Post writer published in the Philadelphia Inquirer








In crisis, Amtrak works to get new high-speed trains operating in 2021


Manufacturing and testing of Amtrak's new high-speed Acela trains, expected to debut next year in the Northeast, is on track despite interruptions to production and training during the coronavirus pandemic, officials said.




www.inquirer.com








me_little_me said:


> So are the cars in this train going to have USB ports?


"


----------



## joelkfla

NEW! Official Amtrak preview:


----------



## me_little_me

Ziv said:


> Yes on the USB issue.
> " Among other features: additional interior and exterior signage to assist passengers in finding their way, streamlined overhead luggage compartments and doorless luggage space so passengers have fewer surfaces to touch. Power outlets and USB ports are more accessible to both passengers in between the seats. "
> Also:
> " The new trains are being built with several touchless and self-serve features that Amtrak says should make train travel more appealing in the post-coronavirus era with Americans still fearful of infection spreading through communal surfaces and human contact. "
> 
> Washington Post writer published in the Philadelphia Inquirer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In crisis, Amtrak works to get new high-speed trains operating in 2021
> 
> 
> Manufacturing and testing of Amtrak's new high-speed Acela trains, expected to debut next year in the Northeast, is on track despite interruptions to production and training during the coronavirus pandemic, officials said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.inquirer.com


Only on Acela but not on the LD cars they JUST are planning to put into service. No need to spend too much when you're trying to dump the service.


----------



## Ziv

Sorry, I thought you were referring to America's Fastest Train post which is about the Avelia Liberty/Acela2. I think that the Viewliner II's have more electrical outlets than the VL I's, but I haven't seen anything about USB ports. Personally, I would rather have an outlet than a USB. YMMV.



me_little_me said:


> Only on Acela but not on the LD cars they JUST are planning to put into service. No need to spend too much when you're trying to dump the service.


----------



## PVD

You can plug an inexpensive and widely available adapter into a receptacle that lets you charge with usb cords, not the other way around, making the receptacles more useful, since they can also accommodate regular line voltage items. That said, there is an expanding selection of receptacles with additional ports for usb charging built on to them, including most major mfrs.


----------



## jis




----------



## Acela150

Per a Facebook group. Tilt testing tonight between PHL and TRE, then to Sunnyside for PTC testing around HAROLD tomorrow night.


----------



## Acela150

Tilt testing was scrapped last night. They had some issues with it. So they went straight to SSYD. They're getting the set ready for ACSES testing throughout HAROLD interlocking tonight.


----------



## DSS&A

A local Colorado newspaper just reported that the testing of the new Alstom train sets is nearing Completion. 









Testing On Amtrak’s Newest High-Speed Train Nears Completion At Pueblo R&D Track


The new trains will travel between the downtowns of Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore and the District of Columbia.



www.cpr.org


----------



## railiner

DSS&A said:


> A local Colorado newspaper just reported that the testing of the new Alstom train sets is nearing Completion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Testing On Amtrak’s Newest High-Speed Train Nears Completion At Pueblo R&D Track
> 
> 
> The new trains will travel between the downtowns of Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore and the District of Columbia.
> 
> 
> 
> www.cpr.org


Hmmm...I see a possible opportunity there...
If compatible, run them for a couple of days on RTD's electrified routes out of Denver, just for publicity purposes. This would benefit both Amtrak and RTD, if they would excite more interest in the possibilities that high speed trains could offer in the future. 
It is really not so far-fetched...back in the streamliner era, many roads would demo their new streamliner way off line, for that purpose, before putting them into their regular intended service...


----------



## joelkfla

DSS&A said:


> A local Colorado newspaper just reported that the testing of the new Alstom train sets is nearing Completion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Testing On Amtrak’s Newest High-Speed Train Nears Completion At Pueblo R&D Track
> 
> 
> The new trains will travel between the downtowns of Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore and the District of Columbia.
> 
> 
> 
> www.cpr.org


Actually, not a newspaper. It's Colorado Public Radio, the local NPR affiliate -- just to give credit where it's due.


----------



## Siegmund

railiner said:


> If compatible, run them for a couple of days on RTD's electrified routes out of Denver, just for publicity purposes. This would benefit both Amtrak and RTD, if they would excite more interest in the possibilities that high speed trains could offer in the future.



It seems like a theoretical possibility -- the Denver airport line is 25kV 60Hz the same as Boston to New Haven is -- but a rather unlikely one to actually happen. I can't imagine it would get a ton of publicity with the general public either, vs. being seen by a modest number of airport workers and college students who passed by. Just parking it in downtown Denver would probably get more publicity than actually operating it.


----------



## railiner

Siegmund said:


> It seems like a theoretical possibility -- the Denver airport line is 25kV 60Hz the same as Boston to New Haven is -- but a rather unlikely one to actually happen. I can't imagine it would get a ton of publicity with the general public either, vs. being seen by a modest number of airport workers and college students who passed by. Just parking it in downtown Denver would probably get more publicity than actually operating it.


Good points, but seeing it in motion for at least a couple of pre-publicized trips, would probably make the local TV news, if nothing else. Then they could have a public display at Union Station for a day or two. One minus, is that they haven't completed the interior.


----------



## Acela150

165 MPH testing is a possibility tonight on the NEC in NJ on the Racetrack.


----------



## Fan Railer

Trainset 2 has reached 165 mph on the NEC as of 1:39 am, 12/24/20.


----------



## Ziv

Sorry for this newby question, but is the plan still for the older Acela trainsets to be retired on a one for one basis as the new trainsets arrive? I think that was the plan originally but I can't remember for sure. Better yet, I wish some of the old Acela trainsets were in good enough shape for them to put in another 6 or 8 years on another route, but I am not sure if there is another route with catenaries that would work for the higher speeds or if the old Acela's would just be too much work for Amtrak to keep them in good running condition.
It is hard to see 20 year old equipment get retired when Amtrak has such a shortage of rolling stock. I mentioned this "wish list" a couple months ago and if I remember correctly the old Acela's are all going to retired ASAP as the new Avelia's arrive. I just wish that Amtrak could use 10 or 12 of the "least worn out" of the older trainsets for another couple years.


----------



## PVD

need 100% high platforms as well, I recall


----------



## jis

Fan Railer said:


> Trainset 2 has reached 165 mph on the NEC as of 1:39 am, 12/24/20.



That's an amazing amount of arcing at the pantograph catenary interface in a constant tension catenary section. Hope this is a temporary thing that they are working on fixing.

I talked to someone I know at Amtrak about the arcing. He said they are acutely aware of it. It is a problem with the aerodynamics of the pantograph that they are in the process of evaluating some design modifications to fix.. I just know a few relevant techies and operating staff in Amtrak. I don't know anymore on the marketing side anymore.


----------



## west point

Is that arcing in the constant tension portion that Amtrak was using a cheaper method ?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Is that arcing in the constant tension portion that Amtrak was using a cheaper method ?


No it is everywhere. It is a defect in the pantograph. Specifically this video is in the full proper constant tension segment.


----------



## west point

Interesting. That brings forth several questions.
1. Is this the same pan used on Acela-1s , or Sprinters?
2. Is this pan different than those use in Europe or the far east?
3. Is the distance from the top of the Acela-2 to the wire taller than in Europe or the far east ?
4. Does the arcing happen when the train rocks ?
5. Is the zig zag of the Amtrak constant tension at a different ratio than Europe or the far east ? We know there is little to no zig zag on the old variable PRR CAT.


----------



## Acela150

west point said:


> Interesting. That brings forth several questions.
> 1. Is this the same pan used on Acela-1s , or Sprinters?
> 2. Is this pan different than those use in Europe or the far east?
> 3. Is the distance from the top of the Acela-2 to the wire taller than in Europe or the far east ?
> 4. Does the arcing happen when the train rocks ?
> 5. Is the zig zag of the Amtrak constant tension at a different ratio than Europe or the far east ? We know there is little to no zig zag on the old variable PRR CAT.



1. No.
2. Yes.
3. I don't think so.
4. No. I can't speak to how it occurs, but it's not due to "rocking". 
5. I don't think it is. But I could be wrong.


----------



## jis

Not due to rocking. It is due to problematic aerodynamics of the panto.


----------



## west point

Is this pan problem an example of either / or Amtrak and Alstom saying proven pans in Europe and Japan not invented here ? Could it be a licensing problem that Amtrak or Alstom did not want to pay the fees to use these designs ? Why in the world was the pan not tested in a wind tunnel ? Arnold wind tunnel I have been told does have vacant times ?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Is this pan problem an example of either / or Amtrak and Alstom saying proven pans in Europe and Japan not invented here ? Could it be a licensing problem that Amtrak or Alstom did not want to pay the fees to use these designs ? Why in the world was the pan not tested in a wind tunnel ? Arnold wind tunnel I have been told does have vacant times ?


Your assignment is now to go find answer to these questions before you ask anymore of them Questions are really easy to conjure up. Now do the hard work


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Your assignment is now to go find answer to these questions before you ask anymore of them Questions are really easy to conjure up. Now do the hard work


Isn't that what west-point is doing? Researching the answers by seeing if someone with expertise knows the answer. Much better to ask someone if a correct answer is available than to do all the research only to find out with a lot more work that an associate already knew the answer.
Possibly if Amtrak executives asked the right questions instead of hiring tons of consultants to redo the research, they could make better decisions.


----------



## west point

If I research a point myself the answers are limited to just my research. Persons who know much more can tell all of us what each problem's solution is. That way total knowledge is spread over more persons. We do not need to hoard our knowledge especially to help expand passenger rail.


----------



## jis

Well, looks like the leg pulling didn't go too well. People took it too seriously.

So more seriously. Things in US are indeed quite different from Europe, so stuff from Europe do not just port over without change, notwithstanding the fond hopes of people who do not have deeper knowledge of the subject matter. For example...

1. Anything from Europe plopped down on American rails rides like ****. That is because the flange profile used in the US is very different from the European one. Ride quality is intimately related to the wheel tire and flange fitting exactly with the rail head, the shape of which is different in the US from Europe. Indeed, even within the US, it is different between the freight railroads and the NEC high speed trackage. Has to do with quality of high speed ride requiring a different shape form what is good for heavy freight.

2. The US electrification on the NEC is 12.5kV which requires much heavier catenary and contact wires to carry the larger current necessary for transmitting the same amount of power to the train. So the pantograph-catenary dynamics is very different from what it is for light weight 25kV catenary. Most likely the problem on the NEC has to do with getting this fine tuning taken care of by trial and error in the 12.5kV segment. Whenever a small parameter is changed one has to go through re-calibrating everything to work right with it.

For some reason even the 25kV electrification in the US appears to use much fatter cables than is typical elsewhere. I have no idea why. Possibly because feeder posts and booster transformers are spaced further apart allowing line voltage to drop lower than is customary elsewhere - but just a guess. Either way, that would also have an impact on the dynamics at the panto-catenary interface.

Heck, even UK with its new fangled catenary mounting system in Scotland and London and West, had to fiddle around with things to get them to work right!

A gentleman who is involved inthe Acela 21 trials mentioned that they believe that the thing that needs tuning is the aerodynamic fins on the panto to get the dynamic forces right to reduce the arcing. It is a hypothesis that they were working on at that time. Since then they might have discovered something else or even fixed the problem. I have not heard anything further from them.

So in general, I am somewhat loath to insinuate incompetence or NIH as the cause of every piece of teething trouble.


----------



## west point

JIS: Unless changed lately the only Amtrak 12.5 Kv 60 Hz CAT is the replacement of the Hell Gate line from Shell to Gate. PRR / NYNH&H CAT - Gate - Sunnyside - NYP - WASH at last time has only been raised from 11.0 to 11.5 to 12.0 Kv 25 Hz.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> JIS: Unless changed lately the only Amtrak 12.5 Kv 60 Hz CAT is the replacement of the Hell Gate line from Shell to Gate. PRR / NYNH&H CAT - Gate - Sunnyside - NYP - WASH at last time has only been raised from 11.0 to 11.5 to 12.0 Kv 25 Hz.


Yeah whatever the voltage is which is somewhere around half of 25kV. .5kV this way that way is not really material in so far as cable size goes.


----------



## jis




----------



## Steve4031

Interesting video in that you see the train operating at increasing speeds each time it passes.


----------



## jis

This is the first time that we will get a side by side comparison of the ride quality on conventional trucks vs. Jacob's trucks based articulated trains on the apparently inevitably inferior US tracks.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> This is the first time that we will get a side by side comparison of the ride quality on conventional trucks vs. Jacob's trucks based articulated trains on the apparently inevitably inferior US tracks.


Why do you think that is so? I mean, why doesn't Amtrak build its own tracks equal, or even better, than the foreign railways? Cost?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Why do you think that is so? I mean, why doesn't Amtrak build its own tracks equal, or even better, than the foreign railways? Cost?


Heavy freight that runs on substantial part of the NEC makes the cost of keeping it as glass smooth as typical European passenger tracks quite prohibitive apparently.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Heavy freight that runs on substantial part of the NEC makes the cost of keeping it as glass smooth as typical European passenger tracks quite prohibitive apparently.


I thought CSX has their own mostly parallel route...at least between DC and NJ...they should also share that route with NS, if it would get NS off NEC....


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I thought CSX has their own mostly parallel route...at least between DC and NJ...they should also share that route with NS, if it would get NS off NEC....


Conrail Shared Assets has trackage rights to get to many sifdings for delivery and pickup. In addition to that Perryville to Bayview carries some heavy Coal trains, and there is some freight traffic around Washington DC too. None of those have an alternate route available and are part of the original deal.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Conrail Shared Assets has trackage rights to get to many sifdings for delivery and pickup. In addition to that Perryville to Bayview carries some heavy Coal trains, and there is some freight traffic around Washington DC too. None of those have an alternate route available and are part of the original deal.


So can Amtrak upgrade two tracks for higher speed and prohibit freight on just those? Then when the freight RRs complain, they can tell them they have to pay a zillion dollars more or sue. That's what NS and CSX do now when Amtrak complains about poor track slowing down faster passenger trains and being shunted aside in violation of the agreements or wanting to go back to using the Sunset in Florida.


----------



## Acela150

me_little_me said:


> So can Amtrak upgrade two tracks for higher speed and prohibit freight on just those?



No. That's not practical.


----------



## jis

Besides straight line tracks are not the problem. It is keeping the interlockings in good order that is hard when you cannot restrict axle loads. Besides the commuter railroads now have diesel engines that have axle loads that would put a Coal hopper to shame.


----------



## daybeers

jis said:


> Besides straight line tracks are not the problem. It is keeping the interlockings in good order that is hard when you cannot restrict axle loads. Besides the commuter railroads now have diesel engines that have axle loads that would put a Coal hopper to shame.


I feel this is the bigger issue. Maybe things will improve as engines become more efficient & lighter in the years to come.


----------



## west point

There has been posts that point out that the PRR sub grade is worn out. The solution? Undercutting which is very expensive and slow. Undercutting requires restoration of signaling once the undercutter has severed signal and other electrical and other items. Also if there are any left over pneumatic lines to switches?


----------



## Acela150

daybeers said:


> I feel this is the bigger issue. Maybe things will improve as engines become more efficient & lighter in the years to come.



Engines will not be getting lighter anytime soon....


----------



## Acela150

Dragging this up..

Anyone hear anything about the first Production set being shipped out soon? I believe that the next TS was scheduled for September, but the Pandemic put a quick damper on that. I just know that it was pushed back to Feb/March time frame.


----------



## Fan Railer

daybeers said:


> I feel this is the bigger issue. Maybe things will improve as engines become more efficient & lighter in the years to come.


Engines are as light as they can be to still perform satisfactorily with the trains they are assigned. Beyond a certain point, you begin to lose adhesive weight, and thus begin to limit the amount of tractive effort a locomotive can effectively apply to the rails, and thus lowering overall performance with heavy trains. You generally want 3x-3.5x as much total axle load for the rated starting tractive effort to ensure reliable performance.

For electrics, this is around 200k lbs on 4 axles w/ 72k lbs TE (this is already pushing the lower limit in my opinion; most of these electrics are very slippery on anything but dry rail), while diesels seem to hover around 270k lbs on 4 axles w/ 65k TE & ~4000 hp (you can't make diesels much lighter because of the presence of the prime mover and generator equipment; lighter diesels = smaller prime mover = less power). The MPExpress seems to be the outlier in the weight department, approaching 290k lbs on 4 axles, but they don't fit in Amtrak's clearance envelope for NYP anyway.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

the MPI engines are no longer in production


----------



## jis

That is why when a rail operator is serious about high performance passenger service, they do not use loco hauled trains anymore, and opt for distributed power (EMU/DEMU) instead. They are less damaging to the track at speed and perform better.

Admittedly, US main line rail operators are still a few decades behind the rest of the world in discovering high performance (not necessarily high speed) passenger system operations.


----------



## jiml

Dutchrailnut said:


> the MPI engines are no longer in production


They moved the manufacturing facility to Erie, PA. GO Transit still has options on MP54AC's to replace the last of their F59's. Expect the new ones to carry the Wabtec name - now their parent company.


----------



## Fan Railer

Dutchrailnut said:


> the MPI engines are no longer in production


There you go spouting false information again... The product is still being offered as part of the Motive Power catalog


https://www.wabtec.com/products/5101/mp32-mp36-and-mp40-diesel-electric-commuter-locomotives



It is however unlikely that any future orders for the 36-40 versions would materialize for a number of different reasons, but that is not the equivalent of saying that they are "no longer in production". The MP54AC meets tier IV standards, and is probably the only viable passenger unit for MPI moving forward, outside of rebuilds.


----------



## Fan Railer

TS2 is scheduled for positioning move to Boston tomorrow morning, 4/5/21, following 172 east out of PHL. It will stay up that way for the foreseeable future in order to conduct representative route testing between Providence and Westerly during the AM daylight hours.


----------



## Fan Railer

Test Extra 2102 on its 165 MPH westbound run @ Wickford JCT earlier today:


----------



## Ziv

Cool video. 
Newby questions. Do they usually run with just one pantograph despite having two locomotives? Or is the front one just some sort of a cab car?
And it appears that the arc'ing that was going on in a relatively recent video is either much less noticeable or gone altogether. 
The blue and white livery is growing on me. The horn still sounds oddly European but I am liking that more too.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ziv said:


> Cool video.
> Newby questions. Do they usually run with just one pantograph despite having two locomotives? Or is the front one just some sort of a cab car?
> And it appears that the arc'ing that was going on in a relatively recent video is either much less noticeable or gone altogether.
> The blue and white livery is growing on me. The horn still sounds oddly European but I am liking that more too.


It’s my understanding that they use just the rear pantograph 99% of the time. Both the front and back are power cars. They usually don’t turn Acelas so one power car takes the train north/east and the other takes it south/west.


----------



## jiml

I saw this question answered in reference to UK rail operations that, although either pantograph can be used, at higher speeds the rear pantograph causes lower physical resistance owing to the way they fold or retract. If you look at the video the pantograph is being "dragged" past the catenary as opposed to being "pushed". This sounds sensible but I'm no expert.


----------



## jis

The Acela 21 sets have a high voltage bus connecting the two power heads so a single panto can supply power to both power heads. So in general practice for high speed runs at least they will normally use a single panto, usually the rear one.

The Acela 1s do not have the high voltage bus, so running with one panto means running with one power head and the other operating as an unpowered cab car, which is not ideal for high speed operation since that is when you need a bunch of the power.


----------



## Fan Railer

For the purposes of testing, they are running with the same pan up, ie, they are not switching pans each time they change directions. The pantograph on Power Car #1 (PC adjacent to the First Class car) is the one that is equipped with the instrumentation, so that is the pan that is being used. This allows them to gather data on pantograph behavior for both directions of travel (leading pan up + trailing pan up). In service, the standard practice will be to operate with the rear pan up, but I suspect that due to faults, etc, we'll be seeing them running with the forward pan up a lot more often than would be expected.


----------



## Fan Railer

Tilt VS No Tilt. Pay close attention to the lines on the coaches and the power cars.


----------



## Cal

Fan Railer said:


> Tilt VS No Tilt. Pay close attention to the lines on the coaches and the power cars.



Nice video! The difference in speed was surprising to me, but I'm not that familiar with HSR. 

I will say, it really annoys me how the sides of the coaches point out and the sides of the power cars are flat.


----------



## Fan Railer

Cal said:


> Nice video! The difference in speed was surprising to me, but I'm not that familiar with HSR.
> 
> I will say, it really annoys me how the sides of the coaches point out and the sides of the power cars are flat.


The speed difference had nothing to do with the status of the tilt system here. The speed limit on the curve at this location is 130 mph for revenue Acelas with the tilt active. Last week, the test train was making 130 through here with the tilt deactivated. It just so happens in this specific clip, they likely got a cab downgrade from the Kingston distant signals, and so were on the brakes in the first clip.

The difference in profiles from the coaches and the power cars is literally due to the fact that the tilt system is only installed on the coaches. The coaches being tapered allows them to remain within the clearance envelope of the power cars when the coaches tilt and the power cars do not.

All that being said, here's the two-week compilation I have from testing up this way:


The train is scheduled to return to Philadelphia on Saturday, so keep an eye out for it.


----------



## Cal

Fan Railer said:


> The speed difference had nothing to do with the status of the tilt system here. The speed limit on the curve at this location is 130 mph for revenue Acelas with the tilt active. Last week, the test train was making 130 through here with the tilt deactivated. It just so happens in this specific clip, they likely got a cab downgrade from the Kingston distant signals, and so were on the brakes in the first clip.
> 
> The difference in profiles from the coaches and the power cars is literally due to the fact that the tilt system is only installed on the coaches. The coaches being tapered allows them to remain within the clearance envelope of the power cars when the coaches tilt and the power cars do not.
> 
> All that being said, here's the two-week compilation I have from testing up this way:
> 
> 
> The train is scheduled to return to Philadelphia on Saturday, so keep an eye out for it.



Thanks for the information! I've been watching some of your recent Acela videos today as well


----------



## Acela150

The trainset that was at TTCI in Pueblo is now enroute to Hornell as of 730am MT on the 29th.


----------



## neroden

west point said:


> There has been posts that point out that the PRR sub grade is worn out. The solution? Undercutting which is very expensive and slow. Undercutting requires restoration of signaling once the undercutter has severed signal and other electrical and other items. Also if there are any left over pneumatic lines to switches?


Hmm, this explains why I have read about Amtrak putting some signal lines up on the overhead poles in places (the opposite of the usual trend); probably preparing for undercutting.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Acela150 said:


> The trainset that was at TTCI in Pueblo is now enroute to Hornell as of 730am MT on the 29th.


I saw it entering the Amtrak yard in Chicago around 4 PM yesterday. The last that I heard was that it was going to leave Chicago last night.


----------



## Fan Railer

Returning to Hornell


----------



## Cal

Fan Railer said:


> Returning to Hornell



It's amusing to me to see the brand new Acela followed by a heritage sleeper.


----------



## Ryan

Now looking at Spring of 22 for revenue service:



> The first of the 28 new Alstom trainsets had been expected to enter service this year, but the debut is now projected for spring 2022 as a result of modifications to the catenary system. The train’s pantograph would lose contact with the catenary wire and could not reach top speed, according to an official involved with the project. Modifications to solve the problem have required additional testing, computer modeling, and simulations. Those tests “have been an extended affair,” says Larry Biess, Amtrak assistant vice president of mechanical, adding several months to the timeline to deliver the equipment.











News report says debut of new Acelas will be delayed by a year - Trains


WASHINGTON, D.C. — Debut of Amtrak’s next-generation Acela trains will be delayed by a year because of modifications needed to make the train compatible with Northeast Corridor infrastructure, the Washington Post reports. The first of the 28 new Alstom trainsets had been expected to enter...




www.trains.com


----------



## jis

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/03/amtrak-acela-new-trains/

We had discussed the catenary contact issue here and on Facebook. During the initial tests there was excessive arcing even at lower speeds through Princeton Jct, and some of us had commented that this would not be acceptable. Turns out apparently that is an issue that has been addressed and took time to fix. Interestingly all this is in a segment that very short few mile segment that actually got constant tension catenary.

Apparently there was more serious issue at the so called "upgraded catenary" that the rest of the NJ segment got. The fact remains that NEC is really still a line that is held together precariously with every mile a special case, and hence will continue to be more expensive to maintain and operate than a newly built line of similar length, and there is really no way to fix it beyond a point.


----------



## frequentflyer

jis said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/03/amtrak-acela-new-trains/
> 
> We had discussed the catenary contact issue here and on Facebook. During the initial tests there was excessive arcing even at lower speeds through Princeton Jct, and some of us had commented that this would not be acceptable. Turns out apparently that is an issue that has been addressed and took time to fix. Interestingly all this is in a segment that very short few mile segment that actually got constant tension catenary.
> 
> Apparently there was more serious issue at the so called "upgraded catenary" that the rest of the NJ segment got. *The fact remains that NEC is really still a line that is held together precariously with every mile a special case, and hence will continue to be more expensive to maintain and operate than a newly built line of similar length, and there is really no way to fix it beyond a point.*



So sad, and here I was believing all those Trains front page NEC articles stating the NEC is "world class".

On the positive side, at least Amtrak picked off the shelf hardware with a proven track record.


----------



## Palmetto

21st Century technology on 20th century infrastructure is bound to have problems I suppose. And TCCI in Pueblo is far different than the curvy, twisty NEC east of New Yorik.


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/03/amtrak-acela-new-trains/
> The fact remains that NEC is really still a line that is held together precariously with every mile a special case, and hence will continue to be more expensive to maintain and operate than a newly built line of similar length, and there is really no way to fix it beyond a point.



And this is perhaps the only rail corridor in the country where train travel is successfully competing with both airlines, cars, and buses, especially if you count the commuter services, too.


----------



## edolan

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/03/amtrak-acela-new-trains/?outputType=amp



Check out this article — pretty disappointing but honestly not very surprising. Thoughts?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Can they be used for axle count? 
Maybe that way we can get all those brand new Viewliner cars in use!


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

crescent-zephyr said:


> Can they be used for axle count?
> Maybe that way we can get all those brand new Viewliner cars in use!



Low blow, sir. Please keep your punch above the wast line.


----------



## west point

It is just speculation but""" Track conditions too curvy may mean the wheel profile does not quite meet the rail profile for curves exceeding those in Europe ?
Maybe the force on the PRR section of track the Amtrak Pans will need to have the force to increase. Undulating track might be in play?


----------



## Acela150

I'm amazed at how quiet AU has been on this........ 

P42 108, 89 & 9800 arrived in Hornell at 12 Noon today (November 2nd). The First Production trainset will make its way to Philly tomorrow morning (November 3rd).


----------



## Tlcooper93

Acela150 said:


> I'm amazed at how quiet AU has been on this........
> 
> P42 108, 89 & 9800 arrived in Hornell at 12 Noon today (November 2nd). The First Production trainset will make its way to Philly tomorrow morning (November 3rd).



I’ve been seeing pictures of the 3rd trainset making its way south.

Any word on further narrowing down possible inaugural revenue service dates?

With the improvements in tilting and track upgrades, does anyone know how much shorter Acela trips will be? (Specifically with the Boston-NYC stretch) 
I imagine not much, but everyone minute counts!


----------



## Acela150

Trainset has been held up by all kinds of NS NonSense. Looks like they'll get to the Harrisburg area around Midnight. They'll top of the P42's at the GI8 Fuel Pad in Harrisburg before the Amtrak crew gets on and takes it home to Philly.


----------



## Acela150

Just arrived in Harrisburg slightly after Midnight.


----------



## west point

Suspect no enroute time changes BOS <> NYP. Walk bridge construction and closing one or more tracks will make it difficult to have reliable OTP . One week OK the next watch out etc.


----------



## daybeers

I can't for the life of me find the main thread about the Alstom Avelia Liberty Acela IIs. Might be good to pin it. Anyway, Amtrak's Media site posted pictures of the new Acela interiors.

My first question: WHY are the tray tables so SMALL?!?


----------



## Mailliw

Nice photos, but I'd appreciate some more details like how wide are the seats, how much do they recline, and when will they actually be in service. Also why to the cafe cars have charging outlets when they don't have any seating? That seems like an odd choice if passengers are discouraged from lingering.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mailliw said:


> Nice photos, but I'd appreciate some more details like how wide are the seats, how much do they recline, and when will they actually be in service. Also why to the cafe cars have charging outlets when they don't have any seating? That seems like an odd choice if passengers are discouraged from lingering.


Looks like there is space between the hip rest and the window to place your phone or tablet to charge while you have “cocktails” with others.
The current Acela has a small “bar” area and standing room only area in its cafe car.


----------



## Acela150

daybeers said:


> I can't for the life of me find the main thread about the Alstom Avelia Liberty Acela IIs. Might be good to pin it. Anyway, Amtrak's Media site posted pictures of the new Acela interiors.
> 
> My first question: WHY are the tray tables so SMALL?!?


This is the main thread.  

Keep in mind that photos can be misleading. 


Mailliw said:


> Nice photos, but I'd appreciate some more details like how wide are the seats, how much do they recline, and when will they actually be in service. Also why to the cafe cars have charging outlets when they don't have any seating? That seems like an odd choice if passengers are discouraged from lingering.


It's way to early to predict a service date for the new trainsets. 

My gripe with the new cafe is the "self service" option.


----------



## MARC Rider

Acela150 said:


> My gripe with the new cafe is the "self service" option.


It says "self select and check out options." If that's what I think it is, that's great. I'm thinking it's like what they have in convenience stores and such, where they have packaged items in a cold case where you can just pick them out without having to stand in line and wait for the attendant. And if it's a self-serve check-out, that's even better. Just take the item out of the case, scan it, and tap or insert your card, and you're off without having to wait for the attendant, who would thus have more time to properly prepare the stuff that needs preparation.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

MARC Rider said:


> It says "self select and check out options." If that's what I think it is, that's great. I'm thinking it's like what they have in convenience stores and such, where they have packaged items in a cold case where you can just pick them out without having to stand in line and wait for the attendant. And if it's a self-serve check-out, that's even better. Just take the item out of the case, scan it, and tap or insert your card, and you're off without having to wait for the attendant, who would thus have more time to properly prepare the stuff that needs preparation.


This is exactly what is done on European trains, which operate in a similar environment of labor shortages and high labor costs.


----------



## blueman271

Amtrak's new Acela trains delayed until fall 2023 - The Points Guy


Amtrak's new Acela Express trains face delays. The trains, which serve the critical Northeast Corridor, were expected in 2021 but now are not expected to hit the tracks until the fall of 2023, at the earliest.




thepointsguy.com





FYI.


----------



## joelkfla

Personally, I'm not crazy about the color choices on the BC seats. The gray and orange combination is dark & dreary, and they look dirty before they've even been sat in.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

To me, the orange looks harsh and unwelcoming. However, it’s my least favorite color after red, so maybe others will find it attractive.

I’m surprised that there isn’t more attention paid to which colors are most soothing for people traveling. Green and blue I believe are the most restful. Although blue is used for seats in transportation, I don’t recall seeing green, although it may be used somewhere I haven’t been.


----------



## Acela150

MARC Rider said:


> It says "self select and check out options."
> 
> and you're off without having to wait for the attendant



Which is exactly why I am not ok with it. It's basically an attempt to elminate the LSA jobs.


----------



## daybeers

blueman271 said:


> Amtrak's new Acela trains delayed until fall 2023 - The Points Guy
> 
> 
> Amtrak's new Acela Express trains face delays. The trains, which serve the critical Northeast Corridor, were expected in 2021 but now are not expected to hit the tracks until the fall of 2023, at the earliest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thepointsguy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI.


At this rate how is rail supposed to be a viable mode of transport for the average US citizen?!


----------



## MARC Rider

Acela150 said:


> Which is exactly why I am not ok with it. It's basically an attempt to elminate the LSA jobs.


Why would it eliminate LSA jobs? Current cafe cars only have one LSA as it is. Are they planning for everything to be self-service? I don't think so, unless they're going to a complete vending machine model. They'll still need an LSA to prepare the stuff that needs to be heated, and I would think an LSA would be needed to make sure that people aren't helping themselves to stuff without paying. However, those who need the services of an LSA won't have to wait in line for people buying packaged foods and drinks, and people buying the packaged foods and drinks won't have to wait in line behind people who need an LSA to prepare their food. And even if they go to a "vending machine" model, they'll still need staff to stock and service the machines.


----------



## MARC Rider

daybeers said:


> At this rate how is rail supposed to be a viable mode of transport for the average US citizen?!


Uh, the old trains will still be running. It's not like people won't be able to ride the NEC until 2023, and while the current Acelas aren't spanking new, neither are the Northeast Regionals -- or my car, for that matter, and they're still viable modes of transport. (By the way, I own a 2001 Honda CR/V, as old as the Acelas, and it still runs fine.) I think people will still be riding trains on the NEC in 2023.


----------



## Mailliw

Acela150 said:


> Which is exactly why I am not ok with it. It's basically an attempt to elminate the LSA jobs.


Unless Amtrak is planning on eliminating hot food and alcohol the cafe cars will still be staffed. This just makes things more efficient for passengers and staff. Ideally other crew could be cross trained to cover breaks too.


----------



## Cal

Mailliw said:


> Ideally other crew could be cross trained to cover breaks too.


What other crew? The conductors, who have to be paying attention to aspects of operating the train? Or the train attendants dealing with first class service, does that mean first class will have to go without an attendant during that time? Or the engineer, and have the train go without anyone driving?


----------



## MARC Rider

Mailliw said:


> Unless Amtrak is planning on eliminating hot food and alcohol the cafe cars will still be staffed. This just makes things more efficient for passengers and staff. Ideally other crew could be cross trained to cover breaks too.


Oh, yeah. alcohol, I forgot about that. No way they can sell alcohol without a live human crew member to dispense it.


----------



## Fenway

MARC Rider said:


> Oh, yeah. alcohol, I forgot about that. No way they can sell alcohol without a live human crew member to dispense it.



Many sports venues in the US have figured that obstacle out.


----------



## MARC Rider

Fenway said:


> Many sports venues in the US have figured that obstacle out.
> 
> View attachment 27891


How does it card the customer? (And make sure that the person showing the ID is actually the person on the ID.)


----------



## jis

Nice cab view of an Acela 21 in this article:









New Acela trains are built for luxury and speed, but the Northeast Corridor needs a lot of work.


The new trains, along with track and signaling improvements, will boost speeds on the Northeast Corridor, though the U.S. is a long way from Japan-style high-speed rail.




www.inquirer.com


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

MARC Rider said:


> How does it card the customer? (And make sure that the person showing the ID is actually the person on the ID.)


I'm specifying something similar for a project right now - I think they scan the ID like some stores do. Good question, however, about the identification of the ID holder vs purchaser. I'm going to look into that next week.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Amtrak’s faster, higher-tech Acela trains are delayed again



They say you make your own luck or in this case your own grief.


----------



## Acela150

The first production set went to Beantown yesterday and came back to Philly today. Testing GPS and PA functions.


----------



## MARC Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Amtrak’s faster, higher-tech Acela trains are delayed again
> 
> 
> 
> They say you make your own luck or in this case your own grief.


From the article:

"Now Amtrak says Alstom needs to complete extensive computer modeling and simulation tests and “ensure they meet [Federal Railroad Administration] safety requirements with this latest generation of high speed technology.” A prototype began testing on the route between Washington and Boston in 2020."

Given that there are actual prototypes (and even production models) actually in operation, how will running computer simulations help the manufacturer meet the safety requirements? I always thought that computer modeling was something you did in the design phase, and, of course, the prototypes never act exactly like the computer model, but you can test and tweak things with the real prototypes, not a computer model that doesn't 100% map to reality. And I would think that the original design should have met the FRA safety requirements in the first place.


----------



## west point

IMO all these problems come from trying to operate AX-2s on worn out, deferred maintenance, no money to fix these problems old PRR right of way and track. NEW Haven - BOS does not have these problems.


----------



## Ryan

MARC Rider said:


> Given that there are actual prototypes (and even production models) actually in operation, how will running computer simulations help the manufacturer meet the safety requirements? I always thought that computer modeling was something you did in the design phase, and, of course, the prototypes never act exactly like the computer model, but you can test and tweak things with the real prototypes, not a computer model that doesn't 100% map to reality. And I would think that the original design should have met the FRA safety requirements in the first place.


In my (albeit different) line of work, we use real-world testing to anchor the models. So model to your heart's content in the design phase, but then go run a bunch of real world tests (we're actually doing one today) to help validate the model accurately represents reality (narrator: many times it doesn't), then you can model to your heart's content and find out what the *actual* performance is because you have a computer model anchored in real world data.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> Oh, yeah. alcohol, I forgot about that. No way they can sell alcohol without a live human crew member to dispense it.


When you travel abroad and see beer in soda machines, wine on tables, and self-serve spirits you realize alcohol is really only quasilegal here.



Fenway said:


> Many sports venues in the US have figured that obstacle out.


I did a quick search and got this back...


> There are two points of age verification: a cashier next to DraftServ station and an ID-checker at line entry.


You might as well just have someone serving drinks at that point. The clumsy hodgepodge of state, county, and municipal liquor laws that replaced federal prohibition are likely to create a slow and tedious process for approving a fully automated self-serve draft machine on wheels.


----------



## west point

It appears although appearances can deceive. The AX-2s are having difficulty in operating at the 160 speeds of the PRR. No problems are noted New Haven - BOS. However, any time something is changed for the PRR the test trains need to make a quick trip to BOS to verify no unintended consequence.


----------



## jis

MODERATOR’S NOTE: A reminder that this thread is about Acela 21. Off topic posts about other stuff will be removed. So please don’t post them.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> It appears although appearances can deceive. The AX-2s are having difficulty in operating at the 160 speeds of the PRR. No problems are noted New Haven - BOS. However, any time something is changed for the PRR the test trains need to make a quick trip to BOS to verify no unintended consequence.


Do you suppose that half the voltage in catenary is causing some issues with developing as much power as is needed for getting to higher speeds? Usually these trains' high speed performance is significantly down rated when operating on lower voltage catenary in Europe. But I did not think this should be an issue with getting to 160mph. The issue with pantograph on rickety old non constant tension catenary is quite real though, but that seems to have been resolved.


----------



## PaTrainFan

MARC Rider said:


> From the article:
> 
> "Now Amtrak says Alstom needs to complete extensive computer modeling and simulation tests and “ensure they meet [Federal Railroad Administration] safety requirements with this latest generation of high speed technology.” A prototype began testing on the route between Washington and Boston in 2020."
> 
> Given that there are actual prototypes (and even production models) actually in operation, how will running computer simulations help the manufacturer meet the safety requirements? I always thought that computer modeling was something you did in the design phase, and, of course, the prototypes never act exactly like the computer model, but you can test and tweak things with the real prototypes, not a computer model that doesn't 100% map to reality. And I would think that the original design should have met the FRA safety requirements in the first place.



This was from The Washington Post. It was a lengthy rundown about both the delay in rollout and the interiors. Overall, a very good read. One sentence that caught my attention was this: "Seats are equipped with personal outlets, USB ports and adjustable reading lights. They will recline in a way that officials said will not encroach on other passengers’ space." I interpret this to mean minimal recline similiar the Siemens Venture coaches.


----------



## west point

jis said:


> Do you suppose that half the voltage in catenary is causing some issues with developing as much power as is needed for getting to higher speeds? Usually these trains' high speed performance is significantly down rated when operating on lower voltage catenary in Europe. But I did not think this should be an issue with getting to 160mph. The issue with pantograph on rickety old non constant tension catenary is quite real though, but that seems to have been resolved.



That has me wondering as I had not considered that. My Electrical exposure really has not been that precise. Assume ( assuming anything is dangerous ) that the apparent resistance of AX-2 is the same R ( resistance, capacitance, reactive ) at both 12 Kv and 25 Kv. Then power would be V squared / R. So 4 times power at 25 Kv. Maybe that could have some effect beyond my pay grade. Now PRR is 12 Kv 25 Hz. Since the transformer has the lower frequency could that effect the acceleration. Have no idea. MRR is 60 Hz but does not even come close to the higher speeds. 

That brings up the question what if PRR is ever converted to 60 Hz 12.5 Kv? Would the variable tension CAT cause problems at the higher speeds?


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

west point said:


> Assume ( assuming anything is dangerous ) that the apparent resistance of AX-2 is the same R ( resistance, capacitance, reactive ) at both 12 Kv and 25 Kv. Then power would be V squared / R. So 4 times power at 25 Kv. Maybe that could have some effect beyond my pay grade. Now PRR is 12 Kv 25 Hz. Since the transformer has the lower frequency could that effect the acceleration. Have no idea. MRR is 60 Hz but does not even


The only thing I would add is that the power in Watts drawn for each voltage should be the same, although the efficiency of the transformer at 25Hz vs. 60Hz may be different this affecting power draw slightly. However the lower voltage means almost twice the amps drawn through the pantograph which might be an issue along with the variable tension catenary not providing as uniform a contact surface. I am not an EE so take my comments with a large grain of salt.


----------



## frequentflyer

Don't know if this has been posted but an interview with Assistant VP of Operations about the Acela 2 testing. Takeaway, these guys take a lot of heat on forums like this but they are railroad guys. If you have two hours and want to know the facts behind testing and introducing new equipment, give it a watch. Its about one year old. The NEC is one messed up piece of railroad. The fact many of us take it for granted when we arrive within 15 minutes of scheduled time shows just how good these employees are behind the scenes.



I remember reading the European Railroad officials shake their heads at the state of repair the NEC is in, but are in awe that it works as well as it does.


----------



## Steve4031

The video was informative. The discussion on the different types of catenary shows how Amtrak is working on maximizing speed and balancing the costs.


----------



## alanh

MARC Rider said:


> How does it card the customer? (And make sure that the person showing the ID is actually the person on the ID.)


Ok, I'm late replying. But it doesn't -- it has to be in an area where a person checks your ID first.


----------



## Mailliw

Fingers crossed for fall 2023.








We went aboard Amtrak’s new Acela for a sneak peek. Here’s what might impress you.


Amtrak's new Acela trains still have a year of testing, but you can now see inside the new train cars.




www.nj.com


----------



## jis

This Railway Age article has some more very technical photos in addition to the usual...









First Look: Amtrak/Alstom Acela II - Railway Age


On May 23, Railway Age Publisher Jon Chalon and Editor-in-Chief William C. Vantuono toured Amtrak’s new Alstom-built Acela II high-speed Northeast Corridor trainset at Philadelphia 30th Street Station. Three of the 28-unit order are on the property.




www.railwayage.com


----------



## jis

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> The only thing I would add is that the power in Watts drawn for each voltage should be the same, although the efficiency of the transformer at 25Hz vs. 60Hz may be different this affecting power draw slightly. However the lower voltage means almost twice the amps drawn through the pantograph which might be an issue along with the variable tension catenary not providing as uniform a contact surface. I am not an EE so take my comments with a large grain of salt.


That is a very hefty assumption. Usually power drawn is regulated based on the design voltage of the territory in order to keep things from overheating in lower voltage territories due to the consequent higher current draw. That is why total available power for lower voltage catenary is less and operational characteristics are degraded to some extent. The question is to what extent such regulation is in effect for 12.5kV vs. 25kV. I don't know the answer to that.

Another thing that is visible in the catenary in 12.5kV segment is the additional Messenger Wire in the catenary which is needed to deliver the higher current efficiently, sometimes with a heavier contact wire which requires more support. They are usually absent in 25kV electrification except in extremely heavy duty freight lines.


----------



## jis

A first look at Amtrak's spiffy new Acela trains - The Points Guy


Though the rollout of Amtrak's next-generation high-speed Acela trains has suffered from lengthy delays, progress is finally being made.




thepointsguy.com


----------



## west point

Speculation: Once Amtrak has 4 fully approved AX-2s it might launch a soft inauguration of service this fall. Have 2 in NYP and 2 in WASH. The AX-1 trips they would replace can remain standby along with the -2s that might be down for some reason. It might require some reservation tweaks to prevent overbookings. However, this speculation ignores what about BOS. I have not heard that an AX=2 has visited BOS for training but vaguely think it has visited.


----------



## Tlcooper93

west point said:


> Speculation: Once Amtrak has 4 fully approved AX-2s it might launch a soft inauguration of service this fall. Have 2 in NYP and 2 in WASH. The AX-1 trips they would replace can remain standby along with the -2s that might be down for some reason. It might require some reservation tweaks to prevent overbookings. However, this speculation ignores what about BOS. I have not heard that an AX=2 has visited BOS for training but vaguely think it has visited.


They have visited Boston last year and recently, so it’s possible.


----------



## Ziv

west point said:


> Speculation: Once Amtrak has 4 fully approved AX-2s it might launch a soft inauguration of service this fall. Have 2 in NYP and 2 in WASH. …


----------



## Acela150

west point said:


> Speculation: Once Amtrak has 4 fully approved AX-2s it might launch a soft inauguration of service this fall. Have 2 in NYP and 2 in WASH.



The chances of this are astronomically low. The new trainsets aren't approved for speeds over 90mph except when testing, also of note Amtrak is planning to do cant deficiency testing this fall. 

Sorry to be the buzz kill.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> The chances of this are astronomically low. The new trainsets aren't approved for speeds over 90mph except when testing, also of note Amtrak is planning to do cant deficiency testing this fall.
> 
> Sorry to be the buzz kill.


I was about to mention this, but you beat me to it.

The cant deficiency work will actually determine what the new speed limits will be for these sets on many of the curves.


----------



## west point

Note: I did say fully approved. If the testing is behind schedule ( which almost always happens) of course it will be later. So Once they are fully approved maybe Amtrak will have a soft inaguration.


----------



## KnightRail

Expecting revenue service anytime before FY2023 Q4 is basically living in Fantasyland, to those who are ‘speculating’


----------



## pennyk

KnightRail said:


> Expecting revenue service anytime before FY2023 Q4 is basically living in Fantasyland, to those who are ‘speculating’


Thanks and welcome back.


----------



## jis

KnightRail said:


> Expecting revenue service anytime before FY2023 Q4 is basically living in Fantasyland, to those who are ‘speculating’


I have been trying to say that whenever these speculations come up. But some people are just incorrigible optimists.


----------



## Acela150

Per the NGEC TS 4 to be delivered next week


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> Per the NGEC TS 4 to be delivered next week


And taking a different route to get to Philly.


----------



## Acela150

Trainset 4 is enroute to Philly currently.


----------



## Agent

Here's a couple videos of the new _Acela_ set on the move today. Brain W caught it at Depew, New York.



Tyler Roth filmed it at Batavia, New York.


----------



## MARC Rider

I saw a trainset in the yard at Ivy City in DC yesterday.


----------



## Acela150

MARC Rider said:


> I saw a trainset in the yard at Ivy City in DC yesterday.


Should be the prototype set.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

MARC Rider said:


> I saw a trainset in the yard at Ivy City in DC yesterday.


Train set #2. They’re doing training on it.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

jis said:


> I was about to mention this, but you beat me to it.
> 
> The cant deficiency work will actually determine what the new speed limits will be for these sets on many of the curves.


Lets hope they are lenient for these speed limits that are determined in these tests. The regulations on cant def (to my understanding) are far too strict currently and could be loosened without having any impact on safety


----------



## Acela150

It seems that according to the NGEC TS 5 should be making its way to Philly by the end of the month. 

The prototype set is rumored to be heading back to Alstom for it's completion.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

jis said:


> I was about to mention this, but you beat me to it.
> 
> The cant deficiency work will actually determine what the new speed limits will be for these sets on many of the curves.


Any idea how much this new tilting system could improve the travel times between Boston and NY given the extreme curves in that segment? Or is most of the NY to Boston section of the NEC a lost cause for getting that travel time down to 3 hours flat?


----------



## MARC Rider

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Any idea how much this new tilting system could improve the travel times between Boston and NY given the extreme curves in that segment? Or is most of the NY to Boston section of the NEC a lost cause for getting that travel time down to 3 hours flat?


To significantly shorten travel times between Boston and New York, what they really need to do is get all four tracks on the Metro North between New Haven and New Rochelle back in operation and figure out how they can dispatch things so that the Amtrak trains can do a consistent 70 mph rather than always poking along at 30 mph behind much slower commuter trains that make a lot of stops. That will have a lot more benefit than worrying about getting another small speed increase for relatively short stretches of track.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

MARC Rider said:


> To significantly shorten travel times between Boston and New York, what they really need to do is get all four tracks on the Metro North between New Haven and New Rochelle back in operation and figure out how they can dispatch things so that the Amtrak trains can do a consistent 70 mph rather than always poking along at 30 mph behind much slower commuter trains that make a lot of stops. That will have a lot more benefit than worrying about getting another small speed increase for relatively short stretches of track.


Is this a symptom of Amtrak not owning those tracks and being deprioritized vs Metro North/MTA contrasted to how Amtrak is given priority over NJT south of NYC? Sounds like those commuter trains need to be sent to sidings the moment Amtrak begins to approach them.


----------



## Ryan

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Lets hope they are lenient for these speed limits that are determined in these tests. The regulations on cant def (to my understanding) are far too strict currently and could be loosened without having any impact on safety


Based on any actual professional training, or just a gut feeling?


Touchdowntom9 said:


> Any idea how much this new tilting system could improve the travel times between Boston and NY given the extreme curves in that segment? Or is most of the NY to Boston section of the NEC a lost cause for getting that travel time down to 3 hours flat?


Even if you solve that, I think that the track centers are too close together to enable tilting for any actual high speed operation.


----------



## west point

There will not be 4 unimpedied tracks New Rochelle <> New haven until at least year 2050. All the moveable bridges being replaced are going to restrict MNRR tracks to 3 and for short times of 2 - 3 months will be just 2 tracks across the moveable bridge location. That is for the new north lift bridge. Walk bridge is now just 3 tracks and will be just 2 sometime late 2023 or 2024. Then starts over when building the south lift bridge..


----------



## cocojacoby

I have been traveling that stretch all my life and I don't think I have ever seen it not having some sort of major maintenance being done and all four tracks open.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

Ryan said:


> Based on any actual professional training, or just a gut feeling?
> 
> Even if you solve that, I think that the track centers are too close together to enable tilting for any actual high speed operation.


No professional training, but my understanding is that the euro rules for cant def allow for higher deficiency than the FRA does in the US in similar track scenarios, and there isn't an obvious reason for that difference


----------



## Dutchrailnut

ehh heavier freight cars in US ?


----------



## jis

Dutchrailnut said:


> ehh heavier freight cars in US ?


Also extra height cars. I suspect FRA would allow higher cant deficiency in segregated passenger lines where freight trains are not permitted but that precludes doing so on most of NEC.


----------



## west point

cocojacoby said:


> I have been traveling that stretch all my life and I don't think I have ever seen it not having some sort of major maintenance being done and all four tracks open.


The problem at Walk is that the swing bridge is being replaced with 2 separate lift bridges. That requires tracks 1 and 3 to be moved approximately 15 feet to the north. That allows tower support columns be installed between tracks 1 & 2 for the support columns. So initially track 1 will be cut for the column with 3 being the thru route. 

Then 1 will be moved north to cross the swing bridge's outer track (3). After the north lift bridge is complete both 1 & 3 will be aligned and altitude somewhat raised to cross the lift bridge.

The repeat for tracks 2 & 4 with them moved south to allow for new support column next to north lift bridge's support column. All this while keeping all construction clear of snagging anything on the swing bridge. Everything on the new lift bridges constructions has to not interfeer with operation of swing bridge. That is one reason that the new track alignment will be higher elevation than swing bridge.crossing.

CONFUSED ???


----------



## John819

west point said:


> The problem at Walk is that the swing bridge is being replaced with 2 separate lift bridges. That requires tracks 1 and 3 to be moved approximately 15 feet to the north. That allows tower support columns be installed between tracks 1 & 2 for the support columns. So initially track 1 will be cut for the column with 3 being the thru route.
> 
> Then 1 will be moved north to cross the swing bridge's outer track (3). After the north lift bridge is complete both 1 & 3 will be aligned and altitude somewhat raised to cross the lift bridge.
> 
> The repeat for tracks 2 & 4 with them moved south to allow for new support column next to north lift bridge's support column. All this while keeping all construction clear of snagging anything on the swing bridge. Everything on the new lift bridges constructions has to not interfeer with operation of swing bridge. That is one reason that the new track alignment will be higher elevation than swing bridge.crossing.
> 
> CONFUSED ???


And there are more bridges between Greenwich and New Haven that will need work in the next two decades to keep the trains running.


----------



## west point

John819 said:


> And there are more bridges between Greenwich and New Haven that will need work in the next two decades to keep the trains running.


That is quite true. Have lost count but there are at least 4 more to replace. Some with dual lift bridges and some with dual Bascule bridges. Each bridge that can be raised to give more clear freeboard when in closed position means fewer openings. Even Brightline is doing that.


----------



## John819

The really hard one to fix is COB in Greenwich. This is on the most heavily used trackage for the New Haven line and also there will be angry rich boaters to protest any restrictions on use of the channel. And the NIMBY, BANANA, and environmental crazies will be out in full force.


----------



## Acela150

John819 said:


> The really hard one to fix is COB in Greenwich. This is on the most heavily used trackage for the New Haven line and also there will be angry rich boaters to protest any restrictions on use of the channel. And the NIMBY, BANANA, and environmental crazies will be out in full force.



I got a slight chuckle out of this because it's so true.


----------



## jis

Nice article in WaPo on Avelia Liberty 









https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/09/22/amtrak-acela-high-speed-trains/


----------



## frequentflyer

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/09/22/amtrak-acela-high-speed-trains/



Inside the plant building the fastest passenger train in America


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## John Santos

west point said:


> There will not be 4 unimpedied tracks New Rochelle <> New haven until at least year 2050. All the moveable bridges being replaced are going to restrict MNRR tracks to 3 and for short times of 2 - 3 months will be just 2 tracks across the moveable bridge location. That is for the new north lift bridge. Walk bridge is now just 3 tracks and will be just 2 sometime late 2023 or 2024. Then starts over when building the south lift bridge..


That will only affect a few miles before the particular bridge being reconstructed until the next crossover after the bridge. Or is every single bridge between New Rochelle and New Haven going to be restricted to 2 tracks for the next 28 years?


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> Nice article in WaPo on Avelia Liberty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/09/22/amtrak-acela-high-speed-trains/


The embedded video is very good.

Here is a link to the same article, with no paywall for 14 days:


https://wapo.st/3qW4Jps


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## GDRRiley

jis said:


> Also extra height cars. I suspect FRA would allow higher cant deficiency in segregated passenger lines where freight trains are not permitted but that precludes doing so on most of NEC.


I think CAHSR has proved that incorrect, FRA is super conservative and seems unlikely to change in the near term. While the geometry is built to US standards for 250mph, in Europe that would be fine for closer to 300mph. 
They took years to accept that buff strength was flawed and that CEM was important. Getting euro rolling stock was equally a long fight


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## jis

I have not been following what is happening with cant deficiency on California HSR. How much is the maximum being used?


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## GDRRiley

jis said:


> I have not been following what is happening with cant deficiency on California HSR. How much is the maximum being used?


compare to Shinkansen which allows superelevation 7in upto 7 7/8in (not clear when) and 4 3/8in of unbanaced which allows a combine 11.4-12.2in

TM 2.1.2
The exception is others norms




Which then gets us this table.


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## AmtrakBlue

joelkfla said:


> The embedded video is very good.
> 
> Here is a link to the same article, with no paywall for 14 days:
> 
> 
> https://wapo.st/3qW4Jps


Thanks for that. The Acela and Regional/Commuter trains videos were taken at the Newark, DE station.


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## west point

John Santos said:


> That will only affect a few miles before the particular bridge being reconstructed until the next crossover after the bridge. Or is every single bridge between New Rochelle and New Haven going to be restricted to 2 tracks for the next 28 years?


If there was just one bridge track shut down delays would not be too disrupting. However there will be unplanned delays that will muck up especially if they come in between the CPs either side of bridge replacements.

So that is a wrong conclusion. For the Walk bridge replacement this is what is occurring. East of the present swing bridge a new CP is being built. That is so normally west bound trains on local track 3 (outer track ) and express track 1 can be switched onto track 2 ( south inner express track ) . 

Once construction on the new lift bridge starts the south columns of the north bridge will occupy the present location of track 1 both sides of the present swing bridge. There fore only track 3 will be able to be used crossing the swing bridge. There will be a long time of only three tracks crossing making it a choke point. The north columns will be built at least 15 feet north of the present track 3 footprint. 

Once all the bridge work is almost complete track 3 will be closed as well making the location a major choke point. On either side of of the waterways tracks 1 and 3 will be raised and moved northward to meet alignments of new north lift bridge. The approaches will meet the new higher freeboard clearances of the lift bridge. Also clear the swing bridge first to allow for the operating swing bridge CAT tracks 2 & 4 to clear. At same time all CAT for track 1 & 3 will be removed from swing bridge. Then the lift bridge can be lowered, tested, & certified for use allowing tracks 1 & 3 be used for regular service.

Then the swing bridge can be used under the north lift bridge. Next again the same procedure will have to be used to build the south lift bridge. So you have extended periods of only 3 tracks available over the bridge and periods of just 2 tracks available. What read on the EIS was 45 days anticipated for each 2 track closure. IMO that seems very optomistic even with 24/7 work. construction 

Next you have all the other bridges being replaced the same way either lift or Bascule bridges probably one at time unless something happens to become an emergency. At best one at a time means year 2050 to have all 4 tracks available for scheduling purposes.


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## Touchdowntom9

GDRRiley said:


> I think CAHSR has proved that incorrect, FRA is super conservative and seems unlikely to change in the near term. While the geometry is built to US standards for 250mph, in Europe that would be fine for closer to 300mph.
> They took years to accept that buff strength was flawed and that CEM was important. Getting euro rolling stock was equally a long fight


Giving a government agency the benefit of the doubt is a terrible mistake, they will always be there to hamstring you if they can. FRA is no exception to that and GDRRiley is completely right in using the buff strength/euro rolling stock examples.


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## Acela150

*RUMOR* *UNCONFIRMED*

Someone has said that another trainset will be coming out of Hornell Sunday making it's way to Philly. The NGEC has been saying since late July that the next trainset would be out "Middle of August, September, etc." for sometime. So I'm a bit skepical. But if anything pops up that I can publicy say, I'll post it as I can. 

The past few days at least two of the three sets in Philly have had a pan up and some static testing seemed to be going on.


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## Acela150

Follow up on my last post from yesterday. 

It is now confirmed. 106, 90, & a Amcafe are on 283 to Niagra Falls to then head to Hornell. 

No info on the trainset at this time.


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## Acela150

AMTK 899 scheduled for a 1130am time out of Hornell today (October 9)


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## Mailliw

Since the Avelia Liberty cafe cars lack seating is there a dedicated conductor office or crew compartment? Or will they just rope off revenue seats?


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## Acela150

Mailliw said:


> Since the Avelia Liberty cafe cars lack seating is there a dedicated conductor office or crew compartment? Or will they just rope off revenue seats?


I haven’t been able to step foot on one of the new high speeds yet. So I honestly don’t know about it at this point.


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## piemadd

Mailliw said:


> Since the Avelia Liberty cafe cars lack seating is there a dedicated conductor office or crew compartment? Or will they just rope off revenue seats?


I have no clue so this is a total guess, but I'd assume so. IIRC the current acelas have a little conductor's office in the cafe car, though I could be misremembering.


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## Acela150

piemadd said:


> I have no clue so this is a total guess, but I'd assume so. IIRC the current acelas have a little conductor's office in the cafe car, though I could be misremembering.


They do have a small office.


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## Touchdowntom9

Anyone know why Amtrak went with the Alstom Avelia Liberty vs the Duplex Horizon? The drawbacks of the duplex design dont seem to hamstring the Acela (slow boarding speed being the primary one) vs the benefits (more capacity per train for a given platform length (which is limited in NYP)). It would also allow Amtrak to be more flexible with their space (ie having a kitchen on the bottom floor and a cafe seating area directly above it instead of a cafe). Amtrak doesnt need these trains to break the speed of sound... Was there more to this selection than what I am aware of? Because the flexibility to ramp up capacity for the Acela or adjust the train interior design to the demands of the public in the midpoint of their service life seems to be a major benefit. If the prices per trainset are comparable, you could offer passengers a much more luxurious experience, or sell more tickets depending on what the market is demanding. Right now the difference between first and business class on the Acela is very limited, and this could let Amtrak offer something similar to what is offered on international business class flights if they wanted to without killing capacity.


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## PerRock

New York has height-clearance issues, it may be that the Duplex Horizons don't fit.


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## GDRRiley

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Anyone know why Amtrak went with the Alstom Avelia Liberty vs the Duplex Horizon? The drawbacks of the duplex design dont seem to hamstring the Acela (slow boarding speed being the primary one) vs the benefits (more capacity per train for a given platform length (which is limited in NYP)). It would also allow Amtrak to be more flexible with their space (ie having a kitchen on the bottom floor and a cafe seating area directly above it instead of a cafe). Amtrak doesnt need these trains to break the speed of sound... Was there more to this selection than what I am aware of? Because the flexibility to ramp up capacity for the Acela or adjust the train interior design to the demands of the public in the midpoint of their service life seems to be a major benefit. If the prices per trainset are comparable, you could offer passengers a much more luxurious experience, or sell more tickets depending on what the market is demanding. Right now the difference between first and business class on the Acela is very limited, and this could let Amtrak offer something similar to what is offered on international business class flights if they wanted to without killing capacity.


the NEC at 14.5ft tall really struggles with bi levels, ACLEAs could just be made longer as the limited stations they call at could support longer
Bi level on the NEC really only makes sense for commuters


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## Trogdor

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Anyone know why Amtrak went with the Alstom Avelia Liberty vs the Duplex Horizon? The drawbacks of the duplex design dont seem to hamstring the Acela (slow boarding speed being the primary one) vs the benefits (more capacity per train for a given platform length (which is limited in NYP)). It would also allow Amtrak to be more flexible with their space (ie having a kitchen on the bottom floor and a cafe seating area directly above it instead of a cafe). Amtrak doesnt need these trains to break the speed of sound... Was there more to this selection than what I am aware of? Because the flexibility to ramp up capacity for the Acela or adjust the train interior design to the demands of the public in the midpoint of their service life seems to be a major benefit. If the prices per trainset are comparable, you could offer passengers a much more luxurious experience, or sell more tickets depending on what the market is demanding. Right now the difference between first and business class on the Acela is very limited, and this could let Amtrak offer something similar to what is offered on international business class flights if they wanted to without killing capacity.



Besides height clearance issues, there‘s also the doors which, as best as I can tell, are too low to serve the high-level platforms that exist at every Acela station.

Also, while a bit difficult for me to pin down exact dates, just based on the construction start dates listed in Wikipedia, the Horizon may not have been available when Amtrak started the procurement process (which is moot anyway given the other restrictions already mentioned).


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## John819

There are also ADA issues with bi-level cars. For commuter operations, they can be overcome as there is no food service; but if access to the cafe car is required then bi-level is probably not possible.


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## jis

Avelia Horizon comes in two different heights, both double deckers. The lower height (~14'2") of the two will fit through Penn Station (The slightly taller one is 15'5" which will not fit.). The problem is with the chosen platform height which is much lower than the American standard high level 4'. However nothing really prevents from creating a version with a vestibule floor height that is suitable for the American market. 

The real problem will be with being compliant with American ADA requirements, a problem that can be worked around with a bit of ingenuity in how access to cafe food is provided to the mobility impaired perhaps, but American ADA is quite unforgiving in terms of the ADA requirements on trains, much more so than on planes, so it might still be a no go.


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## piemadd

jis said:


> Avelia Horizon comes in two different heights, both double deckers. The lower height (~14'2") of the two will fit through Penn Station (The slightly taller one is 15'5" which will not fit.). The problem is with the chosen platform height which is much lower than the American standard high level 4'. However nothing really prevents from creating a version with a vestibule floor height that is suitable for the American market.
> 
> The real problem will be with being compliant with American ADA requirements, a problem that can be worked around with a bit of ingenuity in how access to cafe food is provided to the mobility impaired perhaps, but American ADA is quite unforgiving in terms of the ADA requirements on trains, much more so than on planes, so it might still be a no go.


I wouldn't call ADA forgiving to airplanes, just that the airlines have found ways to skirt around the rules, hence why they have special wheelchairs for that short hop between the airplane door and someone's seat. Also in terms of ADA accessibility on Amtrak, I've heard that is one of the reasons why they might include an option for single level equipment in their new LD RFP, as installing something like a wheelchair lift in every car probably wouldn't be worth the time or effort lol...


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## PVD

The Air Carrier Access Act requirements are tailored for what can and cannot be done on an airplane and are somewhat different than the ADA.


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## railiner

PVD said:


> The Air Carrier Access Act requirements are tailored for what can and cannot be done on an airplane and are somewhat different than the ADA.


I was not aware of the difference for different modes. But then I must question why if airliner's are allowed a bit of tolerance, why can't railcars be allowed some lattitude in bi-level car design by ADA?

(Imagine if the A-380 design had to have all of its seats on one level)...


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## Trogdor

railiner said:


> I was not aware of the difference for different modes. But then I must question why if airliner's are allowed a bit of tolerance, why can't railcars be allowed some lattitude in bi-level car design by ADA?



Because ADA applies to trains, and it does not apply to airplanes.


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## railiner

Trogdor said:


> Because ADA applies to trains, and it does not apply to airplanes.


I had thought that ADA applied to 'everything'...buildings, ferries, etc.....


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## PVD

Airliners/Airlines are covered by a separate law as I mentioned above.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

railiner said:


> I was not aware of the difference for different modes. But then I must question why if airliner's are allowed a bit of tolerance, why can't railcars be allowed some lattitude in bi-level car design by ADA?
> 
> (Imagine if the A-380 design had to have all of its seats on one level)...


Because airlines matter to the powers that be, whereas trains are not on anyone's radar so they get lumped in with everything else.


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## jis

railiner said:


> I was not aware of the difference for different modes. But then I must question why if airliner's are allowed a bit of tolerance, why can't railcars be allowed some lattitude in bi-level car design by ADA?
> 
> (Imagine if the A-380 design had to have all of its seats on one level)...


Though at most 380 capable gates there are jetways to both levels for boarding and disembarking and food is served at seats on both levels.


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## joelkfla

railiner said:


> I was not aware of the difference for different modes. But then I must question why if airliner's are allowed a bit of tolerance, why can't railcars be allowed some lattitude in bi-level car design by ADA?
> 
> (Imagine if the A-380 design had to have all of its seats on one level)...


Probably a matter of reasonableness. It would be unreasonable to require airliners to have full accessibility, due to the constraints placed on the airframe by aerodynamics, power requirements, capacity, and fuel economy. On the other hand, it's simple to make a fully accessible train.


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## railiner

joelkfla said:


> Probably a matter of reasonableness. It would be unreasonable to require airliners to have full accessibility, due to the constraints placed on the airframe by aerodynamics, power requirements, capacity, and fuel economy. On the other hand, it's simple to make a fully accessible train.


On the other hand, airliners can “push the envelope” to ever longer, higher, and wider bodies, something not so easy (relatively speaking) to individual railway cars…


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## railiner

jis said:


> Though at most 380 capable gates there are jetways to both levels for boarding and disembarking and food is served at seats on both levels.


The point I was trying to make, is if airlines are allowed a little bit of slack in meeting accessibility accommodations, why aren’t railroads also?


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## PVD

They aren't allowed slack, they have a different set of standards to meet.


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## Mailliw

railiner said:


> The point I was trying to make, is if airlines are allowed a little bit of slack in meeting accessibility accommodations, why aren’t railroads also?


Airlines have better lobbyists than Amtrak.


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## Bluejet

I fail to see how airliners are at all inaccessible to anyone?

If Amtrak wanted to use aisle chairs, bring food to peoples seats, accommodate restrooms on their level, then by all means they are providing the same access.

The fact of the matter is with jetbridges or ramps, dedicated staff for those with mobility issues, completely ada accessible terminals, and the use of aisle chairs and on board wheel chairs, the airlines are likely at a level of compliance that meets or exceeds that of railroads.


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## jis

Bluejet said:


> I fail to see how airliners are at all inaccessible to anyone?
> 
> If Amtrak wanted to use aisle chairs, bring food to peoples seats, accommodate restrooms on their level, then by all means they are providing the same access.
> 
> The fact of the matter is with jetbridges or ramps, dedicated staff for those with mobility issues, completely ada accessible terminals, and the use of aisle chairs and on board wheel chairs, the airlines are likely at a level of compliance that meets or exceeds that of railroads.


It should also be noted that the disable accessibility regulations that apply to airlines are quite different from those that apply to railroads. They arise as a result of different laws. many are not aware of this.


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## AmtrakBlue

Bluejet said:


> I fail to see how airliners are at all inaccessible to anyone?
> 
> If Amtrak wanted to use aisle chairs, bring food to peoples seats, accommodate restrooms on their level, then by all means they are providing the same access.
> 
> The fact of the matter is with jetbridges or ramps, dedicated staff for those with mobility issues, completely ada accessible terminals, and the use of aisle chairs and on board wheel chairs, the airlines are likely at a level of compliance that meets or exceeds that of railroads.


Are there visual displays on ALL planes for the deaf/HoH to "hear" the safety and other announcements? No - so your statement saying airliners are not inaccessible is inaccurate. Trains are updating their cars to have the required visual notifications. It will take time, but it's being done. Are airlines updating their planes with easy to see visual announcements?


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## Bluejet

AmtrakBlue said:


> Are there visual displays on ALL planes for the deaf/HoH to "hear" the safety and other announcements? No - so your statement saying airliners are not inaccessible is inaccurate. Trains are updating their cars to have the required visual notifications. It will take time, but it's being done. Are airlines updating their planes with easy to see visual announcements?


Safety related information is provided in placard or safety card form. Emergency egresses are lighted and instructions printed. If you’re blind announcements are made. Since planes rarely make intermediate stops, I fail to see why other information would be necessary. What information would you like them to present visually otherwise?

Start staffing trains with 1 attendant per 50 passenger seats and throw wheelchairs into the trains and that will help with the accessibility factor. I really don’t see much of an argument that trains are more accessible than aircraft, especially long distance trains.

I can absolutely see why trains would require Ada compliant bathrooms etc where planes don’t. Aircraft have differ methods to reach compliance, but they are compliant, and are staffed at a much higher level with people to help with compliance.

None of this is crapping on trains, I’ve made it quite clear that I take Amtrak more often than most on this forum. I just think that it’s laughable that people think the airlines are somehow not compliant and they’re leaving disabled people out of access.


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## jamess

I think the obvious answer to the ADA issue is have a mixed trainset.

First 3 cars, bi level. Center three cars, including cafe and business, single level. Rear 3 cars, bi level. 

That gives wheelchair customers 3 cars with full access to restrooms, cafe car, and multiple seating locations.


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## Tlcooper93

jamess said:


> I think the obvious answer to the ADA issue is have a mixed trainset.
> 
> First 3 cars, bi level. Center three cars, including cafe and business, single level. Rear 3 cars, bi level.
> 
> That gives wheelchair customers 3 cars with full access to restrooms, cafe car, and multiple seating locations.


Not really sure why the obvious fix to our ADA issue isn't just single level fleet throughout the country. 

The only real reason in my mind to have bi-level cars is for the SSL. But perhaps we can just order dome cars to replace those?


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## jis

jamess said:


> I think the obvious answer to the ADA issue is have a mixed trainset.
> 
> First 3 cars, bi level. Center three cars, including cafe and business, single level. Rear 3 cars, bi level.
> 
> That gives wheelchair customers 3 cars with full access to restrooms, cafe car, and multiple seating locations.


What does this have to do with Acela 21? That order is done and the configuration is already known. No bi-level.


Tlcooper93 said:


> Not really sure why the obvious fix to our ADA issue isn't just single level fleet throughout the country.
> 
> The only real reason in my mind to have bi-level cars is for the SSL. But perhaps we can just order dome cars to replace those?


Indeed, multiplying car types just adds cost. The tradeoff would be if one could avoid double spotting for higher capacity. But many of the typical double spotting stations can;t really handle a proposed 9 car train without double spotting either.

Besides what we are talking of here is not bi-level but mutli-level cars (like tarns dorms or just plain multi-level like the NJT MLVs or the Bombardier/Alstom Lozenges, since at least the gangway connecting to the single level car will have to be at mid-level at 4' height


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## jamess

jis said:


> What does this have to do with Acela 21?


I am responding to the last 2 pages of discussion. 



> Besides what we are talking of here is not bi-level but mutli-level cars (like tarns dorms or just plain multi-level like the NJT MLVs or the Bombardier/Alstom Lozenges, since at least the gangway connecting to the single level car will have to be at mid-level at 4' height


Yes, because the platforms are high level, any bi-level trains needs a mid-level height zone like the commuter rail stock. That in turn makes it trivial to connect a bi-level car ro a single level car - MBTA does it every day



Tlcooper93 said:


> Not really sure why the obvious fix to our ADA issue isn't just single level fleet throughout the country.


To add capacity because train sets are limited by platforms as per the last 2 pages of discussion


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## jis

jamess said:


> Yes, because the platforms are high level, any bi-level trains needs a mid-level height zone like the commuter rail stock. That in turn makes it trivial to connect a bi-level car ro a single level car - MBTA does it every day


MBTA uses Tri-Level cars, not Bi-Level cars.


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## Touchdowntom9

jis said:


> 1. Anything from Europe plopped down on American rails rides like ****. That is because the flange profile used in the US is very different from the European one. Ride quality is intimately related to the wheel tire and flange fitting exactly with the rail head, the shape of which is different in the US from Europe. Indeed, even within the US, it is different between the freight railroads and the NEC high speed trackage. Has to do with quality of high speed ride requiring a different shape form what is good for heavy freight.


Hi Jis, sorry to pull this back up after over a year but I had been trying to track down this specific comment for a while now. Can you talk a bit more about what the US flange profile is vs the Euro one? I recall riding a French (non high speed) train from Paris to Normandy and recall how much smoother a ride it was compared to the NEC and was struggling to determine why that was (the rides were comparable in speed ~100mph but not nearly as much rocking and bumps on the french train even though it was very old). Should the US rail that is exclusively passenger try to shift to a new profile if it is such an advantage (ie Brightline West)? Couldnt find any solid info about the differences on wiki etc so any info would be great.


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## Dutchrailnut

any European trains that were demonstrated in US had the wheels trued to US profile , French Fry , The Flex liners , ICE etc.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Hi Jis, sorry to pull this back up after over a year but I had been trying to track down this specific comment for a while now. Can you talk a bit more about what the US flange profile is vs the Euro one? I recall riding a French (non high speed) train from Paris to Normandy and recall how much smoother a ride it was compared to the NEC and was struggling to determine why that was (the rides were comparable in speed ~100mph but not nearly as much rocking and bumps on the french train even though it was very old). Should the US rail that is exclusively passenger try to shift to a new profile if it is such an advantage (ie Brightline West)? Couldnt find any solid info about the differences on wiki etc so any info would be great.


I can think of several reasons why European tracks may give a smoother ride. 
1) Lack of heavy freight trains as in the US that throw tracks out of alignment. 
2) A milder climate with less temperature extremes
3) Better maintenance

I have noticed in particular interlockings (switches) seem to be rougher here in the US, which may be also due to differences in designs as well as the effect of heavy freight trains.


----------



## jis

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Hi Jis, sorry to pull this back up after over a year but I had been trying to track down this specific comment for a while now. Can you talk a bit more about what the US flange profile is vs the Euro one? I recall riding a French (non high speed) train from Paris to Normandy and recall how much smoother a ride it was compared to the NEC and was struggling to determine why that was (the rides were comparable in speed ~100mph but not nearly as much rocking and bumps on the french train even though it was very old). Should the US rail that is exclusively passenger try to shift to a new profile if it is such an advantage (ie Brightline West)? Couldnt find any solid info about the differences on wiki etc so any info would be great.


@George Harris may have the details since he has been professionally involved in such. All that I know is that the rail head shape and the wheel profile must match closely for things to operate smoothly, and those are different in Europe from what we have in the US.

Actually even more interestingly the the profile used on the NEC for high speed operation is slightly different from the one used by freight railroads, which causes the LD trains operating on the NEC to ride slightly rougher than they would if their wheel profile matched the NEC better.

I don't have specific technical info to post since the documents that I have seen were viewed under non disclosure. Again, George may have more specific material to share.


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## Touchdowntom9

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I can think of several reasons why European tracks may give a smoother ride.
> 1) Lack of heavy freight trains as in the US that throw tracks out of alignment.
> 2) A milder climate with less temperature extremes
> 3) Better maintenance
> 
> I have noticed in particular interlockings (switches) seem to be rougher here in the US, which may be also due to differences in designs as well as the effect of heavy freight trains.


That makes sense, but I was comparing it to the NEC, in particular NB to PJunct, which I dont believe has seen freight rail in decades (maybe I am wrong). Also the track on the 'raceway' is pretty new isnt it?


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## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts on track quality, axle load and ride quality have been moved to their own thread:






Ride quality, axle load and track quality discussion


That makes sense, but I was comparing it to the NEC, in particular NB to PJunct, which I dont believe has seen freight rail in decades (maybe I am wrong). Also the track on the 'raceway' is pretty new isnt it? Only a few local delivery freights. No run through freights. The NJT ALP45s are...




www.amtraktrains.com





Please continue that discussion in that thread and keep this thread focused on Acela 21 development, testing and deployment


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## Acela150

They have been testing recently on the Racetrack in NJ and sending a set to DC here and there recently. So, progress is slowly being made.


----------

