# Hoosier State Going from IPH Back to Amtrak



## jis (Jan 29, 2017)

According to a few usually informed sources posting on a few other boards things look murky for the future of IPH operated Hoosier State.

Apparently the financial issues that IPH faces is going to cause them to cease operating the Hoosier State. Supposedly there will be an announcement as soon as tomorrow (Monday 1/30/17) announcing IP's wind-down of service.

Ind-DOT is apparently in negotiations with Amtrak to take back operations for a four month period to give Ind-DOT the opportunity to put it out for bid again..

The one good thing is that no one is talking about outright discontinuing the service any more.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 29, 2017)

I've heard rumors as well but I remain confused. One rumor has IPH terminating the agreement to provide equipment in March. Indiana contracted IPH to operate the train until 6/30/17. Unless Indiana has decided not to pay, I fail to see how IPH can not continue to provide the equipment since their costs should be covered...unless there is complete structural breakdown in IPH, which may be the case.

In any case, I will wait until something officially comes out.

That being said, this is just another example of the operational difficulties passenger railroads run into and why you don't see too many operators putting their toe into the market.


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## Palmetto (Jan 29, 2017)

And yet, there are those who still believe that private operators are the way to go. But out of the other side of their mouths they bleat: "Why can't we have the same type of trains as they do in Europe?"


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## jis (Jan 29, 2017)

At this point I am very reluctant to speculate beyond what we know through the rumor mill from what appears to be a couple of independent sources. Let us wait for the announcement and then take it from there.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 29, 2017)

I can say that there have been some high level (senior management) layoffs lately. I was working on a charter in their Grenada line with the head of passenger services for them and he was laid off. Nice guy I feel really bad for him.

As far as financially I'm hearing from my sources (IP employees, and other PV guys) things are not looking good there. As I said a few months ago ride it while you can. But no one believed me when I said it would fail.


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## Gulfwind2 (Jan 30, 2017)

It's been a wash for quite some time. Amtrak got the bulk of the InDoT subsidy from the start of the agreement. I'm with ThirdRail on this one however- the rumors on Trainorders will rot your brain so it's best not to make any suppositions on what is to happen until official announcements are made.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jan 30, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> And yet, there are those who still believe that private operators are the way to go. But out of the other side of their mouths they bleat: "Why can't we have the same type of trains as they do in Europe?"


I still rather have private operators pay for rail service as opposed to paying for it myself via tax dollars. And if there's competition it's better for the consumer (more choices, lower fares). Imagine if there was no private television and the only channels you could watch are PBS and state/local funded stations. That's kind of like the passenger rail system is now. Of course it's not realistic (as of 2017). But I don't want to give up on the idea either and I'm not going to root against companies to fail. Hopefully Brightline goes well and it leads to more companies investing in passenger rail. Demand for rail service is higher today than it was before A-Day when Penn Central and others failed.

As for Europe, the trains may be better in Europe but if they pay significantly higher taxes to pay for it, is it worth it? And most of those countries are a lot smaller than the US so the amount of money that France pays for their entire country's rail system probably would barely cover the amount for California's alone, let alone the entire country (although China is larger and their rail system is also way better than the US).


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## jis (Jan 30, 2017)

Why don't we focus on the fate of IPH run Hoosier State in this thread and take general philosophy elsewhere?


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## jebr (Jan 30, 2017)

jis said:


> Why don't we focus on the fate of IPH run Hoosier State in this thread and take general philosophy elsewhere?


Seconded.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 30, 2017)

No longer a rumor:

Amtrak Release


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jan 30, 2017)

It looks like the worst fears for some have been confirmed. Time is running out for those who wanted to ride the Hoosier State run by IPH equipment.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 30, 2017)

I told people several months ago ride it while you can. They over expanded and didn't scale the entire company properly. And for that I'm not surprised they go under


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## jis (Jan 30, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> No longer a rumor:
> 
> Amtrak Release


I guess we will have to wait for other sources to confirm the bit about the 4 months interim agreement and rebidding etc.


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## CoachSlumber (Jan 30, 2017)

IPH tends to act like everything is going great--until it isn't (see CONO service, which kind of whimpered away). That said, the schedule of the Hoosier was just hostile to success. I would have liked to do a weekend trip from Chicago, but the schedule made it impossible logically to work it out with a couple of hotel nights.


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## jebr (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm not terribly surprised. I'm not even sure having a daily IP Hoosier State would have saved it.

I'm frankly not sure what market the first class product was trying to court. It's slower than driving (or probably even flying if you have Pre,) the calling times aren't great in IND, and I don't think there'd be enough first class traffic for intermediate points. The scenery also isn't anything to write home about, so that loses anyone who wanted to do it as a scenic trip. I'm not sure if coach was better or worse than with Amtrak, but it sounds like IP used more labor than Amtrak would, and labor isn't cheap. Paired with older equipment that surely required a lot of maintenance, and I'm not surprised that the economics didn't work out.


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## Lonestar648 (Jan 30, 2017)

Its sad this didn't work out, but I am not surprised. Serving the public and making a profit is difficult if not almost impossible,


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## Gulfwind2 (Jan 30, 2017)

This should speak a grim tone towards the future of private contract-operated passenger rail. Well folks you know what to do, ring those congressional telephones and tell them to get serious about predictable public funding for passenger rail.


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## HenryK (Jan 30, 2017)

I rode the IP twice. Nice, but in my opinion not all that different from Amtrak.


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## A Voice (Jan 30, 2017)

The single encouraging part of this regrettable outcome is that Indiana is apparently still committed to operation of the Hoosier State. This would have been a convenient excuse to throw in the towel, but they haven't. With business class and wi-fi (and presumably food service, even if just a standard menu Horizon dinette) it will remain a step above what the train had been previously under Amtrak.

I assume this means the end and liquidation of Iowa Pacific itself, or else they should have been able to continue a subsidized service.


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## jis (Jan 30, 2017)

That would be further verified if the rumors about the rebidding is true, and indeed this time around it might be Amtrak that wins at the end.


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## Lonestar648 (Jan 30, 2017)

Not sure, but IP may have created a separate corporation solely owned by IP, in case the Hoosier didn't work out, so they could bankrupt that corporation without taking the entire company under.


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## jis (Jan 30, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> Not sure, but IP may have created a separate corporation solely owned by IP, in case the Hoosier didn't work out, so they could bankrupt that corporation without taking the entire company under.


But the problem is in the entire company at present. A lot of the rest of the company has already been shall we say - disinvested. And no they did not create any separate company for the Hoosier State as far is known in public records.


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## rtabern (Jan 30, 2017)

I am the Executive Director of a non-profit foundation that provides narration and route guide sheets/books to passengers on the Hoosier State. We rotate 10 volunteers who narrate on most Sunday morning northbound trips... for more information check us out at www.hoosiertrain.com and www.chicagorails.com. We started to do programs on private railcars... and expanded over to the Hoosier a few months ago after Mr. Ellis heard our program on a charter trip and liked it... and were asked to volunteer on his train. Iowa Pacific and INDOT have been amazing to work with. Very forward thinking groups who care about passengers and improving the quality of rail service. I kinda heard buzz about this for the past 3 weeks now, but didn't post anything out of respect for our partnership with Iowa Pacific and INDOT until the official release came down. It's really a blow and very sad. Even before we did our program, we enjoyed riding on the Hoosier State just to experience the full-length dome car and excellent meal service. I hope folks will come out in the next 3 weeks and really experience what this service was. We will have guides on the train on February 5, 19, and 26... and then are waiting to see what will happen for us beyond that. We will still do our private car trips in the Midwest, but will miss regular runs. Sad a dome car is being replaced by an Amfleet coach and maybe an unstaffed cafe/business car. I was really rooting for Iowa Pacific on this one. A real kick in the gut... hope they can do something to re-form... we would love to work with them again someday.


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## jis (Jan 30, 2017)

Here is the INDOT official missive:

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/180470b


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## saxman (Jan 30, 2017)

I couldn't see this lasting very long. With full service meals and everything in business class. Luckily I was able to ride this twice so I got breakfast both times. I never got to have dinner, which I really wanted to enjoy.


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## jis (Jan 30, 2017)

More on the subject from INDOT.

http://wlfi.com/2017/01/30/hoosier-state-changes-over-to-amtrak-beginning-in-march/

Amtrak is taking over the fulfillment of the operating contract (and apparently not service level part of it) for the balance of the time of the contract that IP is unable to fulfill. The break was initiated by IP.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 30, 2017)

It was fun while it lasted! 

As several of our members say, catch it while you can when it comes to uniuque trains and special routes!

( I wasn't among those fortunate ones who got to ride the IP run CONO excursions or Hoosier State Trains!)


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## seat38a (Jan 30, 2017)

Well theres been plenty of ranting and raving about how good the BC product was and why Amtrak couldn't do the same thing, shame on Amtrak etc. etc.. Well the only one laughing now is Amtrak. Can't say I didn't see thing coming. As a former idealist, turned realist, there are no such things as rainbow unicorns!


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 30, 2017)

I can say I know several people whom have completed work for IPH and are still waiting on checks from last year. IPH is in major trouble not just the train they ran for Indiana.


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## me_little_me (Jan 30, 2017)

jis said:


> Amtrak is taking over the fulfillment of the operating contract (and apparently not service level part of it) for the balance of the time of the contract that IP is unable to fulfill.


Uh! Oh! Back to dirty bathrooms?


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## seat38a (Jan 31, 2017)

me_little_me said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak is taking over the fulfillment of the operating contract (and apparently not service level part of it) for the balance of the time of the contract that IP is unable to fulfill.
> ...


Would you rather have no train at all, or suck it up with the dirty bathrooms?


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## Palmetto (Jan 31, 2017)

I'd rather have both multiple train frequencies / and clean bathrooms.

Whatever happened to the Midwest High Speed Rail Initiative, anyway?


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 31, 2017)

But why were the bathrooms dirty? Were the overnight cleaning crews not doing a proper job or did the bathrooms start out on a trip being clean and then became dirty enroute? When the latter happens, there's not much to do except tolerate it - after all who was it that got the bathrooms dirty in the first place?

jb


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## Riverviewer (Jan 31, 2017)

Local coverage, courtesy of the _Lafayette (IN) Journal & Courier_:

http://www.jconline.com/story/money/2017/01/30/indot-yanks-hoosier-state-train-contract/97257928/


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## jis (Jan 31, 2017)

Reading that article it seems like IP mistakenly bid under cost for the contract, and tried to get that fixed down the line, and INDOT baulked.

What we learn from the article is that $500,000 is not enough to cover the cost of what IP was providing - equipment lease and OBS over 18 months. They are getting $300,000 more to run it for another month, which presumably recoups some of the previous shortfall too.

In short, they were apparently taking a financial bath to provide the service they were providing.

My understanding is that all the cost of equipment move etc. is not on IP's plate. That is paid for by INDOT directly to Amtrak - part of the $3.9 million.

It will be interesting to see what happens after June, and even before that how much Amtrak and INDOT settle on for Amtrak to provide the service that IP was providing. The issue of equipment usage charges comes up again, where Amtrak has apparently tried to strong arm both New York and Pennsylvania in the past and ultimately backed off.


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## rtabern (Jan 31, 2017)

seat38a said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


No trains at all, honestly... atleast for me. I like train travel... but heck... I have no problem just driving or flying than deal with a filthy train -- especially nasty bathrooms. Who else is with me? That is just gross.

We're not made of money, but we would gladly pay more for a train with nice services and amenities like Iowa Pacific was offering or the Canadian or the Parlour Cars on the Coast Starlight. Amtrak's increasingly lazy and surly employees... insane boarding procedures now in Chicago for coach passengers, combined with food service cuts (Silver Star, Hiawatha, etc.) and food downgrades (Cardinal, City of New Orleans, etc.)... increasing prices for sleepers... and the poor value Amtrak Guest Rewards has become... has lead to us flying and driving a lot more in the past two years. I used to maybe spend 20-25 overnights a year on Amtrak in a sleeper. In 2017, it will be down to just 2 overnights. Those little cuts here and there do add up, atleast in my book, and make train travel less appealing. I am definitely not going on a train with nasty bathrooms. No, thanks. For the money you spend on a sleeper you can fly first class on most major air carriers.


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## jis (Jan 31, 2017)

Unfortunately we are again moving away from focusing on details of Hoosier State, IPH, INDOT and Amtrak issue, to more general stuff. We have multitude of other threads to ***** about Amtrak, so let us not add this thread to that collection while losing focus.


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## A Voice (Jan 31, 2017)

Riverviewer said:


> Local coverage, courtesy of the _Lafayette (IN) Journal & Courier_:
> 
> http://www.jconline.com/story/money/2017/01/30/indot-yanks-hoosier-state-train-contract/97257928/


From the tone of that article, I'm wondering if Iowa Pacific (IP) is really as bankrupt as we've assumed (and is rumored), or if they just had to get out from under a money losing contract. Clearly there are financial problems at IP, else they would have continued, and given reports of layoffs and curtailed operations the issues are serious. But is the company as a whole going belly up?


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## Lonestar648 (Jan 31, 2017)

If their CFO and CEO were on top of their business operations, a separate corporation would have been created just for the Hoosier contract. The primary corporation usually protects itself from unproven operations. I do not know if IP has done this, but if they haven't, and the other operations are marginal, the whole company could crash.


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## Maglev (Jan 31, 2017)

When I rode the _Cardinal _from Washington to Chicago (departing Sunday, January 22), we picked up what I think was a complete _Hoosier State _train set (locomotive, dome, and two coaches) in Indianapolis and towed it to Chicago. Are deadhead moves such as this a regular part of Iowa Pacific's service?


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## jis (Jan 31, 2017)

I think the thing that some are missing here is that it is not Hoosier State that caused the problem in IPH, The fact that they are shedding the Hoosier State is a result of other problems in IPH. As Seaboard will explain, Hoosier State is not the first thing they have shed in the current blood letting. Saratoga and North Creek Winter Operations was discontinue way before they came to Hoosier State. Many others who have provided service to IPH remain unpaid to this date.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 31, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Riverviewer said:
> 
> 
> > Local coverage, courtesy of the _Lafayette (IN) Journal & Courier_:
> ...


The entire company is going belly up. And has been for the last two years. For an example (not the Hoosier State) the Piedmont and Northern train to Christmas town. (For the record very hard to lose money on Christmas trains) First year of operation (2015) ran too many trains and ended up losing money.

Second year

In November prior to his trains running he didn't pay for the lot he was using for his station in a nice neighborhood. Forced to move to a rough neighborhood for it.

Trains supposed to start Black Friday. Unable to start due to no equipment available.

December rescheduled week one (dec first week) forced to cancel because the hodge podge of card weren't ready. Disgusting cars as well that didn't match and mechanically were awful.

Second week of December. New start date. Locomotives ordered still weren't there ended up leasing a MP15E from NS and a CSX SD50-2. Ran first trips.

Third week of December the promised F units finically arrived. But arrived inoperable.

Fourth week still running with the leased freight engines.

That's the state of IP on what should be a profitable and easy to run train


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## CoachSlumber (Jan 31, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Riverviewer said:
> 
> 
> > Local coverage, courtesy of the _Lafayette (IN) Journal & Courier_:
> ...


Are they showing any signs of planning or running any excursions right now? Not a good sign. And Ellis's own FB page has been quiet.


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## keelhauled (Jan 31, 2017)

Maglev said:


> When I rode the _Cardinal _from Washington to Chicago (departing Sunday, January 22), we picked up what I think was a complete _Hoosier State _train set (locomotive, dome, and two coaches) in Indianapolis and towed it to Chicago. Are deadhead moves such as this a regular part of Iowa Pacific's service?


Yes. I forget the exact pattern but I think they happen once a week in each direction. My understanding is Indiana pays Amtrak to handle the deadheading equipment.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Jan 31, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> I'd rather have both multiple train frequencies / and clean bathrooms.
> 
> Whatever happened to the Midwest High Speed Rail Initiative, anyway?


Whatever happened to the money to implement it?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 31, 2017)

jis said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens after June, and even before that how much Amtrak and INDOT settle on for Amtrak to provide the service that IP was providing. The issue of equipment usage charges comes up again, where Amtrak has apparently tried to strong arm both New York and Pennsylvania in the past and ultimately backed off.


Equipment for the Hoosier State? Got a couple of Talgo set sitting near office of the InDOT. Just in case Amtrak get too frisky with the usage charges for 20 year equipment with original seats and carpets. Comes with its own maintenance team.


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## edjbox (Jan 31, 2017)

I remember last year Iowa Pacific was mentioned as being a candidate to operate the Heartland Flyer service that Amtrak operates now. That route I believe might be a better candidate for Iowa Pacific than the Hoosier State was, since it is a daily route, tracks are better, etc. Also, the current Amtrak Superliner equipment and locomotives could be better used somewhere else in the system rather than being stuck in Fort Worth (where no other trains terminate/originate plus only one other train passes through).

Perhaps Iowa Pacific wanted to end their contract on the quad-weekly and slow Hoosier State in order to look at making a serious bid on a train like the Heartland Flyer. Unless Iowa Pacific is really in trouble (as mentioned earlier in this topic) they could make their Heartland Flyer work.


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## PerRock (Jan 31, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > It will be interesting to see what happens after June, and even before that how much Amtrak and INDOT settle on for Amtrak to provide the service that IP was providing. The issue of equipment usage charges comes up again, where Amtrak has apparently tried to strong arm both New York and Pennsylvania in the past and ultimately backed off.
> ...


From my understanding, those are heading out west to CA.

peter


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## A Voice (Jan 31, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > Riverviewer said:
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like they should have been shuttering operations - and selling off equipment - long ago.



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > It will be interesting to see what happens after June, and even before that how much Amtrak and INDOT settle on for Amtrak to provide the service that IP was providing. The issue of equipment usage charges comes up again, where Amtrak has apparently tried to strong arm both New York and Pennsylvania in the past and ultimately backed off.
> ...


The Talgo sets are, as already noted, bound for California. At this point in the Nippon-Sharyo fiasco, the Midwest states surely _wish_ those Horizon cars were _only_ twenty years old (they're approaching 30). .


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 31, 2017)

PerRock said:


> From my understanding, those (Talgo) are heading out west to CA.
> 
> peter


My understanding too, and yet they have not left. The Talgo are still in Indiana with no published date to be leaving for California.


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## Manny T (Jan 31, 2017)

HenryK said:


> I rode the IP twice. Nice, but in my opinion not all that different from Amtrak.


It _was_ fun while it lasted. Rode BC both ways. Not sure if HenryK was in BC or coach. Boy was it different from Amtrak (in BC). Let's start with the free unlimited alcoholic beverages from end to end. Let's throw in a great dinner and a great breakfast (breakfast was similar to Amtrak -- except for the beverages again). Let's add white coated attendants with first class restaurant quality training--and no chips on their shoulder. Ah, those were the days, my friend.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 31, 2017)

I can tell you most people dealing with IPH equipment usually are more surly then most Amtrak employees. And my evidence is myself. The reason Amtrak employees are so surly is they deal with bad passengers and bad equipment. If you can fix bad equipment with decent equipment you would watch morale go up. And even these new cars now won't do much to help as they need to be kept up.

And as far as IPH cars and their issues. Let me list the problems with the most recent car I've worked for them.

MRLX 9412 vista dome

1. Bad dome glass filled with cracks

2. Bad seals in all windows allowing persistent leeks. I fixed it with paper towels taped to the biggest leaks and replaced every few hours.

3. Broken seats. I had to rope off seats because of someone would sit in them the backs of the chairs would fall off.

4. Broken HVAC. Didn't effectively cool the car in the summer.

5. Leaking condenser pan. Over the dome stairs making it a slip hazard all day.

6. Broken walk over seats in the dome. I had to hammer the pin in and lock broken seats into one position. So no flipping it with train direction.

7. Bad springs. Causing the car to ride roughly.

8. Worn upholstery on all seats letting the car look poor.

9. Worn out carpet that was stained and looked poor.

10. Short circuiting electoral locker (I swear it was possessed)

11. Lighting. Half the car had burned out light bulbs. This car had come straight out of the IPH shop.

12. Plumbing. Pipes were too small and would clog up anytime someone did number two. After each use I had to go in and use a screwdriver with a long handle to push stuff down.

13. Faulty traps. They didn't want to open or shut properly without putting major force into it.

Now let's talk about one of their flagship domes.

1. Trap latch doesn't latch.

2. Fancy Pullman logos are peeling off the tables.

3. Toilet rocks back and forth all day. Turned out it had two of five bolts holding it to the floor.

4. PA system doesn't work.

5. Needs new springs. Doesn't ride right.

6. Half the seats don't recline.

7. Mirrors downstairs are scratched and cracked.

8. Cars arrived to me trashed wth garbage left over and crumbs everywhere.

Need I say more.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 31, 2017)

Yeah the IPH toilets were terrible. That was on all of the cars, including the fancy rear observation cars.


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## rtabern (Feb 1, 2017)

Unless Amtrak comes to it senses and lowers the price for business class on the Hoosier... I hope passenger realize they are being ripped off and stop upgrading on this train.

I noticed that business class fares are the same before and after March 1st.

So if you ride BC on February 26... you get a ride in a beautiful dome car with sweeping views, a free full breakfast cooked fresh aboard the train, unlimited booze, etc... and then a week later FOR THE SAME PRICE... you get a seat in an Amfleet with no food or alcohol and maybe a bottle of water or a 280-carlorie cranberry juice that is mostly sugar water. Nice. (The conductors who work this train have told me that the Amtrak Hoosier will be one engine and two cars -- one regular coach and one business class car with the food area un-staffed like it its on BC on the Cardinal right now with just some self-serve water and juice thrown behind the counter)

I understand Amtrak can't provide a dome car or the same experience as Iowa Pacific did -- but why are prices for BC not going down with the cut in service? Not to get too off topic, but again, this is why we stopped riding other Amtrak LD trains. Cuts in the quality of service but no real drop in price except the Silver Star(vation).


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## jis (Feb 1, 2017)

INDOT as the funding agency for the train gets to decide what the fares will be since they have to fund the farebox shortfall. I doubt that new fares will be posted until the actual contract for operation beyond Feb 28th between Amtrak and INDOT is in place. There is also the outside chance that there will be no contract and the train will cease to operate too.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 1, 2017)

Is the ridership dropping? How does the Cardinal Indiana ridership compare? I would hope that Indiana and Amtrak would develop a plan to keep the train and entice more people to ride rather than drive through the Chicago traffic and along the boring I-65. I have driven that route to/from Indianapolis too many times, always wishing the train had better timing so I could use it more frequently.


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## seat38a (Feb 1, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > From my understanding, those (Talgo) are heading out west to CA.
> ...


The Midwest can keep your grubby hands off of the Talgo's! Its OURS for at least 5 years.  The State put up the cash for them. Also, Talgo got the contract from LA Metro to refurbish trains, allowing them to keep the Milwaukee facility running. The last people Talgo is going to do is screw over their best customer right now. The Hoosier State and whatever other services are going to have to stick with whatever equipment Amtrak can scrounge up, dirty bathroom and all.


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## Karl1459 (Feb 1, 2017)

Lets take away some information from this situation.

1. Amtrak is better at estimating and managing costs to operate short interstate (Hoosier type) service than we the foamers and some legislators give them credit.

2. Privatization of trains will remain a goal of a number of stakeholders for service. Those who ride and want different service, and those who underwrite the service. Some, not all.

3. "Tribal Knowledge" of how to run good trains under contract does not exist in the US. Some mouse has to step into the lab and be first.

4. Iowa Pacific was the first. That mouse died. Too high a level of service for what they charged.

5. Profit for a private contractor has to be Fares + Subsidy - Costs = profit. Maintenance is a huge cost, and in the railroad world it is tempting to defer and you end up in a huge hole with no escape.

6. Equipment is a huge investment, and very long term. Without long term contracts a private operator is not going to invest in either new or capital refurbished rolling stock.


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## jis (Feb 1, 2017)

To reiterate the whole thing about Talgo is a nonsensical Red Herring in this discussion. The equipment that will be used at least through June will be standard midwest Amtrak equipment. What happens after that is anyone's guess, but it will not be Talgo anything. Whther there will be any food service or not will be entirely upto INDOT's willingness to pay or not for whatever number Amtrak comes up with for it..

The focus on Hoosier State at the present time is about what INDOT is willing to pay for what service and whether it can be realistically provided for what they are willing to pay. They tried to reduce their costs with the current experiment that just apparently failed - for whatever reason. The analysis of why will go on for a while as the more complete story surfaces over time. It appears that all the relevant facts are not quite known yet.


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## A Voice (Feb 1, 2017)

rtabern said:


> Unless Amtrak comes to it senses and lowers the price for business class on the Hoosier... I hope passenger realize they are being ripped off and stop upgrading on this train.
> 
> I noticed that business class fares are the same before and after March 1st.
> 
> ...


One story I've read (though I cannot confirm its veracity) is that the Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) did, in fact, request the Amtrak full dome for at least interim service on the Hoosier State. Not to cast doubt on your conductor sources, but I would be very surprised if Amfleet equipment were used on the Amtrak-operated train. Probably even Amtrak doesn't yet know what the amenities will be (published articles have stated as much); As jis noted, it will be up to what INDOT wants and is willing to pay for.


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## jis (Feb 1, 2017)

Yeah. I think the Conductor is speculating. At this time only those that are doing the negotiation between Amtrak and INDOT may have some vague idea of where things are headed. Also remember, these negotiations are happening under Moorman, not under Boardman too. Admittedly, I have no idea what, if any, would be the impact of that difference.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 1, 2017)

Also it would be very easy to ask for cost for a feature, and after you have Amtrak price quote then determine what you can pay for.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 1, 2017)

Even if Ocean View is on the Hoosier State, it is bare bones with no provision for serving food and drink to Biz Class passengers and I doubt Amtrak wants to pay a LSA to man it,they're in a cutback mode right now!

Oceanview,is always First come,first served when on a Scheduled Train with no extra charge for seating up top in the dome.(could be different on a Special?)

I'm not even sure it could hold up Mechanically on a Regular Scheduled Train?


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## Ryan (Feb 1, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> I doubt Amtrak wants to pay a LAS to man it,they're in a cutback mode right now!


It doesn't matter what Amtrak wants to pay, what matters is what InDOT wants to pay for and what they and Amtrak can agree to a cost on. If InDOT wants to spring for food service and the labor costs that go along with it, the train will have food service.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 1, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Even if Ocean View is on the Hoosier State, it is bare bones with no provision for serving food and drink to Biz Class passengers and I doubt Amtrak wants to pay a LSA to man it,they're in a cutback mode right now!


Wouldn't it be the state paying for it? Perhaps Inianna could pay for a non-Amtrak service staff ala state of Maine and Downeaster?


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## Ryan (Feb 1, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Oceanview,is always First come,first served when on a Scheduled Train with no extra charge for seating up top in the dome.(could be different on a Special?)


It's also not out of the question that Amtrak in InDOT agree to use the dome car as the BC car and only allow passengers who have paid the upcharge. That would be a BC upgrade worth buying!


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## jis (Feb 1, 2017)

It would be somewhat crazy to sell accommodation for a special price on a car which has absolutely no backup and is known to be not exceedingly reliable. My money at present is on this dream not coming true. Forced downgrades may be more frequent than would be acceptable. That was to some extent a problem with the IPH operation too - as in "no train" even.


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## Ryan (Feb 1, 2017)

Agreed that it's not likely, "not out of the question" probably oversold it.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 1, 2017)

Yep,there were lots of Bustitutions and Cancelations during IPs tenure.Wonder how much $$$ that cost due to refunds and never agains?

If Oceanview is gonna be on scheduled service Id pay extra for the Adirondack,Surfliners,Pennsy,Coast Starlight,Cardinal,Cap,Empire Builder,Cali Zephyr and the Cascades but that's it!(Scenery,Scenery,Scenery!!!!)


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## rtabern (Feb 1, 2017)

A Voice said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > Unless Amtrak comes to it senses and lowers the price for business class on the Hoosier... I hope passenger realize they are being ripped off and stop upgrading on this train.
> ...



Can you provide a link to the story that you read about Ocean View being put on the Hoosier? I'd love to read it, please.

You'd be "very surprised" if Amfleet equipment was used on the Hoosier State after March 1st? Why? I would think an Amfleet or Horizon coach is much more likely than the train running with Ocean View. But. we'll see in about 28 days.


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## jis (Feb 1, 2017)

I cannot see it using anything other than a standard midwest consist or a truncated version of one.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 1, 2017)

I think IP over promising coupled with INDOT pricing not in sync, makes for difficult negotiations between Amtrak and INDOT. Based on potential revenue guarantee from the state, what will Amtrak offer to us as passengers? Unfortunately, what IP was promising is not a contractual concern to Amtrak unless INDOT pays for it. I see just a very basic service with no frills.


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## rtabern (Feb 1, 2017)

Here is something no one has posted yet. Last night, my wife and I crunched the numbers involving IPH and the Hoosier State... and it's quite shocking how little money IPH was getting through the deal.

According to the news reports that we have read, INDOT agreed to pay Iowa Pacific $500,000 a year to run the onboard services and cars for the Hoosier State. That might sound like a lot... but break it down a little and you might be surprised. That $500,000 a year comes out to just about $9,615.38 per week. There are 4 round-trips between Chicago and Indianapolis per week. So, you're down to making $2,403.82 per round-trip... or $1,201.92 per one-way. Basically, they were getting 200 bucks per car... per trip... when you factor in the 3 coaches, 2 locomotives, and 1 dome car. How can a company sustain itself on that? with providing enough staff to serve full dining car meals?

I know a private car trip between Chicago and Indy would cost you over $10,000 if you were to charter it on the back of Amtrak... they were only making less than one-fourth of that.

We are big supporters of Iowa Pacific and love the crews, Ed Ellis, and the service that they gave to passengers the past 20 months on the route. I don't see us riding under Amtrak unless they offer the same amenities.


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## jis (Feb 1, 2017)

You can with a great deal of certainty plan on not riding Amtrak then  As you observe, what IP was providing was patently unsustainable, and there is no reasonable reason to believe that InDOT intends to spend much more than that. I would be more concerned about whether there will be a train at all come 1 March or 1 July, than whether you will ride it..


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## keelhauled (Feb 1, 2017)

Trains Magazine has an article out today with some more details--InDoT budgeted $254,000 monthly for the service, and signed separate contracts with Amtrak and IP, where Amtrak would bill the state for their costs, and IP would get the remainder. Among the costs Amtrak billed the state for were timekeeping incentive payments to CSX, so as OTP improved, more money went to CSX, leaving less for IP. Apparently, IP managed to not understand the terms of the contract they were signing, and were caught by surprise by this development.


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## jis (Feb 1, 2017)

So we were stuck in a situation where we could have a train with bad OTP but good OBS or good OTP but bad OBS. Oh well.... Sigh....

The bottom line is that InDOT was trying to get something for cheap and they got exactly what they paid for.

The article below clearly suggests that the deal was grossly underfunded if the train always ran on time from the getgo. So apparently the expectation was that it would always run with bad OTP and CSX would take the hit for it.

http://wbaa.org/post/financial-missteps-lead-iowa-pacific-give-hoosier-state-line#stream/0


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## dlagrua (Feb 1, 2017)

I believe that the Iowa Pacific Hoosier state line had problems from the start. Where not they required to use an Amtrak engineer and conductor? They received less of a subsidy than Amtrak did, had higher maintenance costs, charged the same fares and provided a higher level of service. The numbers just did not add up. Now if CSX got into the game it might have been a different story. IMO, Amtrak will be back but just maybe with a combined daily Cardinal/Hoosier State that can couple on a few extra Hoosier state cars at Indianapolis.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 1, 2017)

jis said:


> The bottom line is that InDOT was trying to get something for cheap and they got exactly what they paid for.
> 
> http://wbaa.org/post/financial-missteps-lead-iowa-pacific-give-hoosier-state-line#stream/0


Very interesting story. Indiana most definitely got a winner of a contract. Amtrak 2nd place. IPH got the shaft.

Ok lawyers are a dime a dozen, nobody to read the contact and check the math at IPH. Sound like someone didn't do there job. Or just wanted the business so badly, they would of sign anything. Maybe that was the plan, start with Indiana and get more work at different states, and better prices.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 1, 2017)

Or maybe the 300lb gorilla made a sweetheart deal with bonus for on-time deliver with the freight railroads.

I wonder if the two different trains running on this line have the same bonus structure. Would not be the first time Amtrak when ballistic and try to destroy another operation.


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## tommylicious (Feb 1, 2017)

I am riding this next week roundtrip!


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## jis (Feb 2, 2017)

Here is a copy of the Contract between IPH and INDOT. Appendix G which is the details of the contract with Amtrak is missing from this package as it was provided as an attachment to it to both INDOT and IPH.

http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_IPHAgreement_2015.pdf

But what is clear from this is that INDOT and Amtrak both indemnified themselves to the hilt and IPH needed a more competent Contract negotiator than they had. Even I would have walked away from this setup, and I am no Contract negotiator of any repute whatsoever. It is not clear to me how they ever expected to even come out even unless they managed a completely miraculous growth in ridership.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 2, 2017)

Smoking Gun?

Amtrak was able to redo there cost of contract in the summer of 2016. No input from IPH. IPH gets only payed with anything that left on the table.

Bad contract.

The question is do both train on this route pay the same to freight railroads, and are the Amtrak charges prorated correctly.

I.E. The road master, T+E crew, and clerks assigned to this route, are those pay checks only from the state funds, or are they prorated from the Long Distance Fleet and a part from the State of Indiana.

How much of the Amtrak overheads was past on to the state contract.

Amtrak knew the total funds available, could they adjusted to fit that amount. Or did they?

.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Feb 2, 2017)

Maybe it's buried in this thread or one of the linked stories, but what was the average ridership in business class on this route?

I rode the train once, and business class had maybe 5 or 6 people up there. I think there were 2 or 3 employees assigned to the car because of the food service. I could have just been riding on a slow day, or maybe that was typical. If so, there was absolutely no way that service was paying for itself.

People can complain all they want about having an Amfleet club-dinette with a bottle of OJ vs. a dome car with cooked meals and free booze, but the $30 or so fare upgrade for BC vs. regular coach doesn't come anywhere close to paying the costs of staff, extra car, and the food & beverage you get. It probably barely pays for (if at all) the cost of the extra club-dinette car (even unstaffed) if you're only getting 5 or 6 people in it.


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## jis (Feb 2, 2017)

Hoosier State ridership over the last several years:



> 2016: 29,488
> 2015: 29,348
> 2014: 33,386
> 2013: 35,995
> ...


Seems to pretty much track gas price more than anything else. There is a possibility that '15 and '16 would have been worse without the new INDOT deal, but that is hard to quantify based on any measured metrics.


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## Eric S (Feb 2, 2017)

Having months of uncertainty as to whether the train would be discontinued certainly didn't help 2015-2016 ridership either. I'd have to go dig through recent monthly reports to be sure, but as I recall, ridership had been on the upswing in recent months.


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## jis (Feb 2, 2017)

I suspect that "problem" shall soon be fixed  unfortunately,

Of course the big problem is that a small variation in a small number is not what will lead to success of this operation. INDOT needs to commit to this more solidly than having a rag tag circus of local communities and itself put together funds that under capitalize the operation. Without that it is doomed.

INDOT needs to follow the example of California if they really want this to succeed. My suspicion is that that they only marginally care, and wil do just enough to keep the few supporters of it off their backs.


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## A Voice (Feb 2, 2017)

rtabern said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > rtabern said:
> ...


I would be surprised if the Hoosier State, under Amtrak, does not use Horizon fleet cars from the pool already in Chicago. Why bring in more Amfleet cars for the train, which are in short supply and needed in the northeast, when you have an existing pool of Horizon equipment?


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 2, 2017)

And it probes my theory that passengers just don't get excited about dome cars. Most pax just want to get from point A to point B safely and on time. The only thing dome cars attract is railfans and foamers. And neither are a really dependable market. They generally tend to rather chase, film, and photograph the train then buy tickets.

And when they do buy tickets they generally go coach from observations from working seasons upon seasons of excursions. So domes aren't really a true factor. And if they had to have a dome you don't throw a full dome on a train where you can't fill a vista dome.


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## Paulus (Feb 2, 2017)

jis said:


> But what is clear from this is that INDOT and Amtrak both indemnified themselves to the hilt and IPH needed a more competent Contract negotiator than they had. Even I would have walked away from this setup, and I am no Contract negotiator of any repute whatsoever. It is not clear to me how they ever expected to even come out even unless they managed a completely miraculous growth in ridership.


Remember their various plans for massively increasing service at little to no cost to Indiana? It's entirely possible and likely that they were delusional enough to think that they'd get such massive increases in ridership to make money on it.


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## west point (Feb 2, 2017)

With all the early arrivals in CHI why hasn't the schedule been tightened ? example 25 minutes day before yesterday. With some additional work by the various RRs maybe even more schedule tightening ?.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 2, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> And it probes my theory that passengers just don't get excited about dome cars. Most pax just want to get from point A to point B safely and on time. The only thing dome cars attract is railfans and foamers. And neither are a really dependable market. They generally tend to rather chase, film, and photograph the train then buy tickets.
> 
> And when they do buy tickets they generally go coach from observations from working seasons upon seasons of excursions. So domes aren't really a true factor. And if they had to have a dome you don't throw a full dome on a train where you can't fill a vista dome.


You make so many broad points in this post I'm not sure where to begin.

"Most Pax just want to get from point A to point B safely and on time" - That's why most passengers book coach. This is true for airlines as well as trains. The point of Business Class / First Class is for passengers who want to pay more money for a better experience.

"Passengers just don't get excited about dome cars" - I agree to an extent. Hoosier State BC passengers don't need a dome car. However... passengers who pay for BC / Sleeper / 1st Class do get excited for something nice or fancy. That can be a Pacific Parlour Car, 2-1 Seating, a Dome Car, Rear Observation Car, or just a really nice old time lounge. What passengers do enjoy, is the nice service, the little 1st class touches, and the upscale atmosphere.


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## jis (Feb 2, 2017)

We are drifting off of IPH and Hoosier State to general philosophy again. But I guess to some extent that is inevitable.

Just the statement that "no one needs BC/Dome" what have you is overly general, so is the claim that those in Sleeper desire luxurious accommodation. Majority of Sleeper passengers in the world appear to mostly desire sleeping accommodation for the lowest possible price.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 2, 2017)

So when Amtrak takes over, what will the consist be? One engine and two horizon coaches? Will they offer any type of snack or drink service since that loses money?


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## Triley (Feb 2, 2017)

west point said:


> With all the early arrivals in CHI why hasn't the schedule been tightened ? example 25 minutes day before yesterday. With some additional work by the various RRs maybe even more schedule tightening ?.


They probably want it to match the schedule of the Cardinal so it's easier for passengers to remember. And without adjusting the rest of the schedule it may not be possible for the Cardinal to maintain the tightened schedule.



Lonestar648 said:


> So when Amtrak takes over, what will the consist be? One engine and two horizon coaches? Will they offer any type of snack or drink service since that loses money?


It's been covered in many posts over the last few pages. What equipment will be used is unknown at this time. Food service will be provided if Indiana pays for it.


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## edjbox (Feb 3, 2017)

There won't be a need for the Hoosier State train and all this trouble with INDOT at all once the daily Cardinal debuts.......


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## tommylicious (Feb 3, 2017)

Leaves Indy way too early, arrives Indy way too late to be user friendly.


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## cirdan (Feb 3, 2017)

jis said:


> INDOT needs to follow the example of California if they really want this to succeed. My suspicion is that that they only marginally care, and wil do just enough to keep the few supporters of it off their backs.


Isn't that true of all of Amtrak outside the NEC and maybe some other local examples such as California, Illinois etc.

The too insignificant to keep alive but too significant to kill off scenario.


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## jis (Feb 3, 2017)

Yes. And it is also true that most are undercapitalized. Furthermore, unless the funding situation is changed they have no hope of improving significantly.

But we are talking specifically about the Hoosier State in this thread. There are other threads to talk about general Amtrak issues. Hoosier State is unique because INDOT actually seems to believe that they can reduce spending on an already undercapitalized operation to improve it.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 3, 2017)

I thought at one point INDOT had hoped to raise money to improve the track between Indianapolis and Chicago, much like IDOT has between STL and CHI. Money needs to be spent on the infrastructure, the equipment used, and actual service provided. How many people would consider leaving their cars if the speed improved thus improving the schedule. I cant see a continuation of Amtrak's slow, no frill, service with stagnant or dropping ridership.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 3, 2017)

As I've said before, the route itself has much bigger potential. I-65 was busy when I drove it frequently and I'm sure it's gotten busier. Indy has grown quite a bit as well and, at least according to some there, they love visiting Chicago (back in the 90's traveling Broadway shows in Chicago were advertised on Indy tv for example). A good sized college town about halfway. Not to mention being able to pick up NW Indiana residents needing to go to Indy for the occasional state business.

It won't reach it's potential until a few things happen: better times, faster running (needs to be faster than Megabus), more frequency, etc. Oh, well...


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## cirdan (Feb 3, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> And it probes my theory that passengers just don't get excited about dome cars. Most pax just want to get from point A to point B safely and on time. The only thing dome cars attract is railfans and foamers. And neither are a really dependable market. They generally tend to rather chase, film, and photograph the train then buy tickets.
> 
> And when they do buy tickets they generally go coach from observations from working seasons upon seasons of excursions. So domes aren't really a true factor. And if they had to have a dome you don't throw a full dome on a train where you can't fill a vista dome.


I don't know about the US, but i have it from a guy who organizes railfan spacials in the UK that the higher and more expensive categories are generally the first to sell out.


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## cirdan (Feb 3, 2017)

jis said:


> Yes. And it is also true that most are undercapitalized. Furthermore, unless the funding situation is changed they have no hope of improving significantly.
> 
> But we are talking specifically about the Hoosier State in this thread. There are other threads to talk about general Amtrak issues. Hoosier State is unique because INDOT actually seems to believe that they can reduce spending on an already undercapitalized operation to improve it.


But does INDOT really belioeve that. Or has IP talked them into believing that?

If you're a contractor or consultant and you say you can save costs, you'll find lots of open doors and people willing to listen, including people who are maybe not qualified to ask the right questions but wihose eyes will go glassy when you mention the magical words "cost reduction".


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## jis (Feb 3, 2017)

AFAIK INDOT believes mostly in discontinuing all funding if they can get the few pesky complainers off their backs. 

The history of this episode is that initially INDOT said it was going to discontinue the service and then much belly-aching happened resulting finally in the IPH solution after one or two other possibilities fell apart. As for how that sausage was made I don't know. At the end INDOT basically paid Amtrak what it was getting before and then some, and IPH found that they had no clue what they had signed onto. Very peculiar to say the least.


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## SubwayNut (Feb 3, 2017)

Even in Indiana public transit circles the Hoosier State is controversial because the funding isn't from general transportion funding but the small amount of state funding that is used to help public transit (from the major bus systems and South Shore Line to small dial-a-rides in rural areas) throughout the state.


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## west point (Feb 3, 2017)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> It won't reach it's potential until a few things happen: better times, faster running (needs to be faster than Megabus), more frequency, etc. Oh, well...


Yes tell your VP ! !


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## CoachSlumber (Feb 6, 2017)

tommylicious said:


> Leaves Indy way too early, arrives Indy way too late to be user friendly.


That in a nutshell is why I, a person who would be inclined to use it mostly for the train part, never did. In terms of planning a hotel weekend in Indy, I'd have to book three nights to have a full weekend of activity. With a better schedule, I would have gladly paid for the BC.


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## A Voice (Feb 7, 2017)

Amtrak full dome 10031 is confirmed as in Chicago, and there was a report it was there for axle-count service (seems an odd choice, but I digress). However, does the fact the car is there give some hope that it _may_ actually be intended for the _Hoosier State_?


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## jis (Feb 7, 2017)

Since Hoosier State can be operated with a single consist, and IP has been operating a dome on it with virtually no fallback replacement car, Amtrak doing the same would be par for the course I suppose.


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## tommylicious (Feb 7, 2017)

I gotta say that Summit View dome is incredible. Nicest dome I've been on. Even better than the ones on The Canadian.


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## Anderson (Feb 7, 2017)

This came up elsewhere, but my read is that Indiana had an issue not unlike New York's objection about "black box" accounting on Amtrak's end. There was also a history of Amtrak, frankly, treating the Hoosier State like garbage (I believe it was the second or third longest passenger train run in North America without food service, behind the Sudbury-White River and The Pas-Pukatawagan services up in Canada).

I'd also point out that after the HS got handed over to IP, hallelujah, wouldn't you know it? Amtrak suddenly started cross-listing a _ton_ of Greyhound buses between IND and CHI to compete.

Finally, I do have to suggest that the 2015/16 numbers may have been sandbagged by the string of "bad faith" disruptions where Amtrak was doing everything they could to "bad order" IP equipment.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 7, 2017)

IPH actually has several extra domes laying over in Chicago on a regular basis that could protect the summit view. Prairie View of it isn't on a run is in the 22nd Street yard in Chicago.

Scenic View also should be there as well if it isn't on a run. And Sky View is also Amtrak Certified and should be in Bensenville IL at IPHs "shop". They might also have a vista dome up there as well in Bensenville.

Personally I prefer a vista dome it gives a better view and is slightly taller.


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## jebr (Feb 7, 2017)

Anderson said:


> I'd also point out that after the HS got handed over to IP, hallelujah, wouldn't you know it? Amtrak suddenly started cross-listing a _ton_ of Greyhound buses between IND and CHI to compete.


Amtrak also listed a fair amount of other codeshare bus schedules around the same timeframe. I know CHI - MSP (Greyhound,) CHI - Toronto (Greyhound,) the ND/MT service with Jefferson Lines, and at least one or two services in the Southeast also happened around that timeframe. Considering people had to book at least one train segment with it, I think any desire to spite IP with bus tickets was secondary to a simple ability to add more one-stop options/connections with Greyhound.

Plus, given similar timeframes, who is going to choose a Greyhound bus over an Amtrak or IP train, especially after booking Amtrak or IP on at least one segment? I'm guessing very few people.


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## Anderson (Feb 7, 2017)

jebr said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > I'd also point out that after the HS got handed over to IP, hallelujah, wouldn't you know it? Amtrak suddenly started cross-listing a _ton_ of Greyhound buses between IND and CHI to compete.
> ...


That's the thing...the Greyhound times were arguably more convenient at Indianapolis. I don't know how much traffic they pulled off of the HS, but the timing struck me as particularly suspect alongside the other issues.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 8, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> Personally I prefer a vista dome it gives a better view and is slightly taller.


While I'd like to ride in a vista dome for at least part of a trip, especially if there was interesting scenery, as a regular traveler, I think I'd prefer a standard coach that includes and overhead luggage rack to park by bags, a nice overhead reading light, not to mention reclining seats. (The last vista dome I rode, on the Capitol Limited in 1988, did not have reclining seats in the dome section.)


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## MARC Rider (Feb 8, 2017)

Anderson said:


> This came up elsewhere, but my read is that Indiana had an issue not unlike New York's objection about "black box" accounting on Amtrak's end. There was also a history of Amtrak, frankly, treating the Hoosier State like garbage (I believe it was the second or third longest passenger train run in North America without food service, behind the Sudbury-White River and The Pas-Pukatawagan services up in Canada).
> 
> I'd also point out that after the HS got handed over to IP, hallelujah, wouldn't you know it? Amtrak suddenly started cross-listing a _ton_ of Greyhound buses between IND and CHI to compete.
> 
> Finally, I do have to suggest that the 2015/16 numbers may have been sandbagged by the string of "bad faith" disruptions where Amtrak was doing everything they could to "bad order" IP equipment.


Now why would Amtrak want to sabotage the IP "Hoosier State?" Amtrak was still running the train (and getting paid for it), it was still listed as part of Amtrak's national system, IP was providing the cars and locomotives, thus freeing up Amtrak equipment for other uses. All IP seemed to be doing, if I understand the discussion correctly, was providing some financially non-sustainable on-board service (in addition to the equipment.) Was the IP Hoosier State really that much different from the Piedmont service in North Carolina, or even the Downeasters, in which the cafe car is apparently not run by Amtrak?

As to the lack of food service, first everyone complains about how horrible the food is, now they're complaining that there isn't enough of it!


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## NYP (Feb 8, 2017)

Anderson said:


> I'd also point out that after the HS got handed over to IP, hallelujah, wouldn't you know it? Amtrak suddenly started cross-listing a _ton_ of Greyhound buses between IND and CHI.


The buses referenced above are alternate frequencies only bookable with a train trip. This offers alternate return times and Chicago connection options (including a red eye connection introduced). Most of the buses continue beyond Indy to Louisville and Nashville, which are not currently served by rail. Travelers can choose to ride a train in one direction and return by bus or vice versa.


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## grover5995 (Feb 12, 2017)

If the Talgo trainsets are already spoken for, the next best option for equipment might be the former ATSF El Capitan bi-levels. A short corridor like this ought to have at least 2 round trips per day. A faster route would also help since most of the trip time involves getting to and from CUS. Would a private operator like Virgin Rail be interested?


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## PVD (Feb 12, 2017)

Why would any private operator want it? It can only lose money under Indiana's format.


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 12, 2017)

Nobody will want to run it under current conditions. The route needs to be faster with more convenient service which won't happen until Indiana ponies up some hard cash. Which will never happen.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 14, 2017)

And to add to IPHs woes. Texas wants to pull the Texas State Railroad from them. And North Carolina has pulled the Piedmont and Northern from them. Not related as much to the HS. But shows the state of IPH so I think it's admissible to this forum


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 14, 2017)

Yes but why would Texas, and North Carolina pull the contract. Government need a reason. Not a "well there having issues" and they were not sure about next season.

Up here in NY they have paid the X-mas train crews, and have canceled the new winter sleeper service. However the winter sleeper service was not the best idea, and late to start marketing.

Does not mean there going to fail and shutdown. IPH might be in trouble, but too early to call them dead.


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## rtabern (Feb 15, 2017)

As much as I love passenger rail... maybe the Indiana Department of Transportation should seriously just kill off the Hoosier State on March 1st instead of let Amtrak take the service back.

Let's do a little math... There are 4 round-trips per week of the Hoosier State per week... or 8 one-way trips. Multiply by that by 52 weeks and you basically have 416 one-way trips per year of the Hoosier State. Right?

Revenue passengers per year for the last year Amtrak operated the train appear to be 27,937. (Source: Indystar.com)

Divide 27,937 by 416 trips --- and you come out to each one-way averaging 67 riders. Correct?

Now, Amtrak will be getting $4,000,000 per year to run the train. That comes out to $9,615.38 for each of the 416 one-way trips. Divide that by 67 riders -- and basically the state is paying $143.51 per rider.

Sure, maybe they re-coop $30-40 in fares... but that is still the state losing basically $100 per rider to keep the thing going.

It's just NOT sustainable... when there are good alternatives to get from Indy to Chicago that are much faster... and is way too much for the one or two coaches or whatever Amtrak is going to be bringing to that route.

With that said -- there are plenty of state routes that should continue to be subsidized IMO. Having train service from Chicago to Milwaukee makes a lot of sense -- it takes only 89 minutes and you can almost never drive between those two cities in that amount of time. So, rail makes sense. Even between Chicago and St. Louis it makes sense with traffic on I-55. Or even out to Quincy where there are no real direct interstates. Also, LD trains that provide service to remote areas also justify the subsidy.

Just saying $100 per person for a 190-mile rail trip that takes almost twice as long as driving doesn't cut it.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 15, 2017)

While most of us don't usually advocate for train offs, this makes financial sense rob.

IMO the funding that IDOT is basically pouring down a rat hole could better be spent on track improvements between Chicago and Indy and applied to a Daily Cardinal with a better schedule.


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## A Voice (Feb 15, 2017)

rtabern said:


> It's just NOT sustainable... when there are good alternatives to get from Indy to Chicago that are much faster... and is way too much for the one or two coaches or whatever Amtrak is going to be bringing to that route.
> 
> With that said -- there are plenty of state routes that should continue to be subsidized IMO. Having train service from Chicago to Milwaukee makes a lot of sense -- it takes only 89 minutes and you can almost never drive between those two cities in that amount of time. So, rail makes sense. Even between Chicago and St. Louis it makes sense with traffic on I-55. Or even out to Quincy where there are no real direct interstates.


It's not a race. I'd love to see a source which shows that prospective passengers choose a given mode of transportation (other than air, perhaps) based primarily on trip time; Driving will typically be faster (even many times in the Northeast Corridor) as its door-to-door. The purpose of regional passenger rail is not to "beat" the automobile by getting there faster, and such is not a valid metric for evaluating the effectiveness of a train service.

That said, there are indeed multiple disadvantages to the current Chicago to Indianapolis passenger route. A improved, faster route and more convenient schedule (let alone increased frequencies) are all things which would create a more viable corridor operation here, and arguably a more efficient use of state funds. However, you cannot just assume the ridership gains(*) made under Iowa Pacific will magically go away, especially since Indiana has stated certain of the amenities are to be retained. Further, we don't yet know the longer term plans for the train, as Amtrak supposedly is intended only as an interim operator. Certainly there are problems with the route (and Indiana's budget plans just sufficient to maintain the status quo), but throwing in the towel is not the solution.

* - The 27,937 passenger number differs from the annual ridership figures Jis posted earlier. That doesn't mean the passenger count isn't low for what Indiana is paying (because it is), but don't get caught in the "loss per passenger" numbers trap used by many Amtrak critics to unfairly malign its passenger trains (particularly long distance). Those numbers are at best patently misleading; A completely meaningless statistic chosen mostly because it paints the finances in the worst possible light.



Bob Dylan said:


> While most of us don't usually advocate for train offs, this makes financial sense rob.
> 
> IMO the funding that IDOT is basically pouring down a rat hole could better be spent on track improvements between Chicago and Indy and applied to a Daily Cardinal with a better schedule.


Strictly speaking, when evaluated solely by financial statistics, no intercity passenger trains really make financial sense (none are truly profitable). That doesn't mean they do not serve a valuable purpose and are not worthy of continued (and expanded) investment.

The _Cardinal_ is a federally funded long-distance train. With no vested interest in the service, Indiana is not going to spend state funds to improve the route and schedule for that train. If the _Hoosier State_, however, can be operated more effectively and efficiently, there is at least some potential in the Chicago to Indianapolis route.


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## OBS (Feb 15, 2017)

It is important to also remember that not everyone is just traveling between these two city pairs. How many are making connections to/from other trains in Chicago?


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 15, 2017)

I do think Indiana should pay for daily service at good times. They are already paying for equipment and crews to deadhead correct? Can't be that much more to get daily service and that is what would really increase ridership in my opinion (the combination of daily service and better times).


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## west point (Feb 15, 2017)

Thoughts

1. Cancelling Hoosier will not reduce crew costs by 4/7ths.

2. Until Trump comes up with a comprehensive plan for rail in this country any train offs might be very premature. If continual upgrades reducing enroute times occur then there may be hope yet for rider increases ? That is if Amtrak will allow schedules to be reduced ?

3. Situation will change unknowingly if Cardinal goes daily due to changes in Washington ?

4. If Cardinal goes daily and CSX will agree a Hoosier's schedule change then ridership migh double or more if enroute times are reduced ?


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## jis (Feb 15, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> While most of us don't usually advocate for train offs, this makes financial sense rob.
> 
> IMO the funding that IDOT is basically pouring down a rat hole could better be spent on track improvements between Chicago and Indy and applied to a Daily Cardinal with a better schedule.


I can almost bet on the hypothesis that exactly $0 of the money saved by canceling the Hoosier State will be spent on anything to do with rail transport. If it is used on transportation at all it will be on road improvements. Given the current situation that may unfortunately be the most efficient use of the money.

The same reasoning could be applied to several other routes to cancel them as things stand.


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## west point (Feb 15, 2017)

Improve the route ? Thoughts.

1. $4.0M

2. At the approximately current figures for laying parallel track not over road crossings or bridges = ~#1.0M / mile. So that would be 4 miles of new MI or siding track ?

3. Oh wait PTC CP signaling reported to cost about $500K per end so a new siding or extended one would only mean 2 miles ?

4. Then again any highway crossing signals and worse any bridges increase the costs greatly.

Guess that $4.0M will not go far ?


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## Palmetto (Feb 16, 2017)

History shows that once a train goes, it is very difficulty to get it back, let alone increase service. Not a good idea to cease service.


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## jis (Feb 16, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> History shows that once a train goes, it is very difficulty to get it back, let alone increase service. Not a good idea to cease service.


Completely agree. But some here think that they can blithely cancel trains because they do not live upto their standards and then wait until it comes back with their dome car one it, or not have it at all. Needless to say, I do not agree with their approach because of its basic impracticality under the current circumstances.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 16, 2017)

jis said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > History shows that once a train goes, it is very difficulty to get it back, let alone increase service. Not a good idea to cease service.
> ...


 I one hundred percent support the above statement. And as I've said before most general public passengers could care less what the train has as long as it runs safely and on time.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 16, 2017)

jis said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > History shows that once a train goes, it is very difficulty to get it back, let alone increase service. Not a good idea to cease service.
> ...


From my point of view, this is a short-haul* regional train and doesn't need superlative, fancy service. It isn't the 20th Century Limited.

* Or should/could be short time wise....


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## west point (Feb 16, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> as I've said before most general public passengers could care less what the train has as long as it runs safely and on time.


This has a lot of merit. As much as we rail supporters want super service the general public often has no idea what the Amtrak service is like.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 16, 2017)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Palmetto said:
> ...


Agree with that, but it needs more than it had under Amtrak before. You left Indy at 6 am and you could not even get a cup of coffee.

I rode IP's Business Class, too, and it was superb but overkill for a short-haul train. From what I've read, after March 1, it will be more of a standard Amtrak short/medium haul train with an Amcafe and Business Class, which is adequate if not great and better than the coach only train with no amenities at all that it was before.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 16, 2017)

As I've said before, this is one route that really should be a huge success if it could be sped up, kept on time and had frequencies added.


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## rtabern (Feb 16, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> History shows that once a train goes, it is very difficulty to get it back, let alone increase service. Not a good idea to cease service.


If INDOT doesn't cut this train ---- then ---- at the very least ---- they should put heavy pressure on Amtrak (when the next round of contract negotiations happen later this summer for the new contract that would go into effect July 1st) -- to provide service for a heck of a lot less than $4,000,000 per year.

As much as we all love trains and train travel... and I would hate to see ANY service get cut ... I have yet to see someone on the forum actually present an argument to justify a state paying a $100-130 per passenger subsidy for train service that is: A) Just 190 miles long... B) Almost all of the route parallels an interstate highway... C) Dinks along taking 1 hour and 10 minutes to go just 30 miles from Dyer to Chicago switching between a half dozen freight railroads... D) Takes almost 2 hours longer than driving... E) Takes 1 hour and 30 minutes longer than the bus... F) Mainly provides service for people to LEAVE your state (Indiana) and spend money in another (Illinois) for a day trip... G) Doesn't really encourage tourism to your state (no one from Chicago is going to arrive in Indy at Midnight and turn around and come back at 6am the next day)... H) Operates at ungodly hours... etc, etc.

Sometimes you just have to throw in the towel when a train line really doesn't make sense and invest your money elsewhere. I think Indiana should either commit a lot of money to improving this with multiple frequencies a day and better track conditions OR just stop paying for it and let the chips fall where they are... even if it means the Hoosier goes bye-bye.

Getting back to what I first wrote --- if I were in INDOT's shoes --- I would approach Amtrak and say hey... you use this train to get your equipment down to Beech Grove -- so you get something out of it beyond any other state service -- we are going down to maybe $2.5 or $3 million... final offer, take it or leave it.

I wouldn't "poo-poo" the dome car and the nice meal service. I have rode this train around 20 times and a lot of people in business class have told me that the reason they chose to take the train vs. drive or the bus was because of the nice meal service and observation car. This was both business men/women and yes some railfans. Sure most people probably didn't care --- but if it swayed a few thousand people to try the train or take it over driving -- well, those people are going to go back to their old modes of transportation probably when Amtrak takes over. Personally, I know we won't ride the Hoosier anymore after March 1st. No reason to anymore.

In the end though -- just like the dome car and meal service was not sustainable and had to go away --- any state route that is 190 miles long and is subsidized to the tune of upto $130 per passenger when they are other, faster and more practical forms of transportation out there (bus, car, etc.), is probably not sustainable for much longer either. It's just reality of it. And for folks who are going to argue just because you support train service come hell or high water regardless of how much money it sucks up -- how about INDOT discontinue the train and give you the $130 so you can go and buy a pass to ride as much as you want at the Illinois Railroad Museum.


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## jebr (Feb 16, 2017)

If I can't drive, how do I get to Crawfordsville, Rensselaer, or Dyer without taking the train? A look at Greyhound's website shows no intercity bus service to those towns, and removing the train means that people in those cities can only leave via any sort of non-personal-automobile form of transportation three days a week. Guess you better hope that your specialist's appointment in Chicago is on a Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday, and also hope that people don't decide to cut the Cardinal as well because it's also a "waste of money."

But hey, at least they have some extra money to go buy a pass for a joy ride at the Illinois Railway Museum that they have to pay a taxi to get to/from and still doesn't get them anywhere near home.


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## jis (Feb 16, 2017)

At the end of the day if the towns served by the train and the state that the train runs in, feels that money is well spent, who are we to tell them that it is not? 

The problem with the Hoosier State was that someone was foolish enough to believe that a service would be cheaper to run when an additional party providing a better service would earn enough additional revenue on a short, slow, ill timed service to cover for the actual cost difference. The whole thing sounded a bit preposterous even back then if one thought a bit about it, and admittedly most of us fell for that silliness. Now to turn around and say therefore the train should be cancelled because it did not meet our unrealistic expectations is equally silly IMHO.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 16, 2017)

Old saying: "If something seems to good to be True, it is!"


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## A Voice (Feb 16, 2017)

rtabern said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > History shows that once a train goes, it is very difficulty to get it back, let alone increase service. Not a good idea to cease service.
> ...


*Again*, the state does not provide a per-passenger subsidy of $100-$130 for operation of the Hoosier State. That _is not a valid metric_ for evaluating the finances of passenger rail; The true purpose of a (largely fictitious) per-passenger loss figure is to make the trains' financial numbers look as bad as possible. Yes, the service requires an operating subsidy, but the per-passenger numbers are virtually meaningless (in theory, you could get a better result by giving tickets away).

You arbitrarily dismiss arguments in favor of the Hoosier State while failing to provide a sound basis for your contention that it is unworkable; Respectfully, some of your arguments, A-H, are just silly. What, one might reasonably ask, would a parallel interstate have to do with anything? Most Amtrak routes - and most major highways - travel between major destinations. That's where the business is to be found.



> I wouldn't "poo-poo" the dome car and the nice meal service. I have rode this train around 20 times and a lot of people in business class have told me that the reason they chose to take the train vs. drive or the bus was because of the nice meal service and observation car. This was both business men/women and yes some railfans. Sure most people probably didn't care --- but if it swayed a few thousand people to try the train or take it over driving -- well, those people are going to go back to their old modes of transportation probably when Amtrak takes over. Personally, I know we won't ride the Hoosier anymore after March 1st. No reason to anymore.


So, even if the amenities are the same, you won't ride anymore? That's telling.



> how about INDOT discontinue the train and give you the $130 so you can go and buy a pass to ride as much as you want at the Illinois Railroad Museum.


You do realize, I presume, that this makes even less sense than the politicians who suggested it would be cheaper to buy Amtrak passengers an airline ticket than subsidize the train. The _Hoosier State_ does not exist - and it is not subsidized - for the purpose of letting people take a train ride. The purpose of the train is to provide a transportation service between Indianapolis and Chicago. The Illinois Railway Museum is rather, well, a museum.


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## rtabern (Feb 16, 2017)

jebr said:


> If I can't drive, how do I get to Crawfordsville, Rensselaer, or Dyer without taking the train? A look at Greyhound's website shows no intercity bus service to those towns, and removing the train means that people in those cities can only leave via any sort of non-personal-automobile form of transportation three days a week. Guess you better hope that your specialist's appointment in Chicago is on a Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday, and also hope that people don't decide to cut the Cardinal as well because it's also a "waste of money."
> 
> But hey, at least they have some extra money to go buy a pass for a joy ride at the Illinois Railway Museum that they have to pay a taxi to get to/from and still doesn't get them anywhere near home.


See the other side of it too... Just because one does not want to drive from Chicago to Dyer... the State of Indiana should have to be out $130?

I am not against subsidies for rail service by any means. I am just saying states with budget woes should focus on those rail routes that makes the most sense. Especially where rail is faster than driving or other modes of transportation or could be with reasonable improvements.

The Hoosier is just not worth the money. Other routes are.

The only people who would say Indiana should pay Amtrak $130 per person for everyone who wants to ride from Chicago to Dyer either works for Amtrak, is an extreme railfan, or doesnt live in the state.


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## rtabern (Feb 16, 2017)

A Voice said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > Palmetto said:
> ...


No... there is not a per person flat rate subsidy... but you can figure out the average per person subsidy.

Its really easy... Total subsidy in a year divided by total passengers in a year.

It comes out to around $100 per person depending on what ridership figures you can find.

I dont know how that is slanted to make rail travel look bad... Its simple math and the truth... Like it or not.


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## jebr (Feb 16, 2017)

rtabern said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > If I can't drive, how do I get to Crawfordsville, Rensselaer, or Dyer without taking the train? A look at Greyhound's website shows no intercity bus service to those towns, and removing the train means that people in those cities can only leave via any sort of non-personal-automobile form of transportation three days a week. Guess you better hope that your specialist's appointment in Chicago is on a Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday, and also hope that people don't decide to cut the Cardinal as well because it's also a "waste of money."
> ...


And those that can't drive? Not everyone is able to drive, and many of those towns don't even have intercity bus service to substitute in should the train be discontinued. Are they supposed to just be stranded in their town even though they've paid into the transportation system through their tax dollars but have no way to use it?

Also, the $130 is the highest figure that I've seen, and doesn't include any fare revenue. FY2012, which from this report (pdf) includes full subsidy figures, suggests a roughly $3M subsidy requirement after fares are accounted for. Per passenger, that's about $82.60. That's still a lot of money, don't get me wrong, but it's well below $130 per passenger.


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## me_little_me (Feb 17, 2017)

rtabern said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > History shows that once a train goes, it is very difficulty to get it back, let alone increase service. Not a good idea to cease service.
> ...


If it costs Amtrak that much to provide that service plus a reasonable profit, then Indiana has no right to pressure them to lower the price. If Indiana chooses to improve the service times by investing in improving the rail, changing train times, changing the contract terms to require the potential provider to bid on a different level of service, adding more service or other means to increase ridership to the point that the cost/passenger goes down, that is up to them. But if they want to find a cheaper provider, they will need to find more bidders for the service.


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## Ryan (Feb 17, 2017)

rtabern said:


> I dont know how that is slanted to make rail travel look bad... Its simple math and the truth... Like it or not.


Because it's misleading. It implies that if ridership increases, then the state will have to pay more money. The exact opposite of what will happen.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 17, 2017)

The best operation would be to make the Cardinal daily and then run the Hoosier State as a single day turn to Indy and back leaving Chicago in the morning and returning in the afternoon.

And to those who won't ride a train because it's not up to "standards" ok that doesn't really help the cause. You can't be for more train service and not support new service because it isn't up to standards. I still support the Silver Star and still sell people tickets on it despite the lack luster food service. So pick a team support new service and advocate for rail. Or don't ride or advocate for trains.


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## west point (Feb 17, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> The best operation would be to make the Cardinal daily and then run the Hoosier State as a single day turn to Indy and back leaving Chicago in the morning and returning in the afternoon.


Imagine that most of us would think that is most productive option in the long run. But we have no idea what is going to come out of Washington.


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## Ryan (Feb 17, 2017)

It's not what's going to come out of Washington, it's what is going to happen in VA, specifically with the BBRR.


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## bretton88 (Feb 17, 2017)

jebr said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > jebr said:
> ...


Living in the rural state of Iowa, which is similar to Indiana, the answer is that people who can't drive are out of luck. There's generally local paratransit service, but that's all non drivers get.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 26, 2017)

So last week of service. Any idea what Amtrak is bring to the table?


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 26, 2017)

Two horizon or Amfleet I coaches and a cafe of either type. Depends what's available.


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## bmjhagen9426 (Feb 26, 2017)

Will the Hoosier State be used to deadhead equipment to and from Beech Grove, after going back to Amtrak?


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## jis (Feb 27, 2017)

I bet that will depend on what the contract that Amtrak enters into with INDOT allows, or not.


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## jis (Feb 27, 2017)

Continuing saga of the rest of IPH business ...

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/02/27-ip-lawsuit


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 27, 2017)

Hmmmm, when the lawyers get involved the meters run!

Guess the Texas State Railroad might not be running their Spring Specials???


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## A Voice (Feb 27, 2017)

jis said:


> Continuing saga of the rest of IPH business ...
> 
> http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/02/27-ip-lawsuit


I'm not familiar with such licensing agreements, so perhaps it is common, but doesn't a 30% royalty seem rather high? That is going to really eat into ticket revenue.

Also, if Iowa Pacific paid over $3 million in past-due royalties, are they really as bankrupt as commonly reported? That's a fair chunk of change for a company which supposedly can't meet payroll.


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## Deni (Feb 27, 2017)

MARC Rider said:


> As to the lack of food service, first everyone complains about how horrible the food is, now they're complaining that there isn't enough of it!


Well, there's more to it than bad nuked food. Cafe cars have beer, wine, cocktails as well as having table seating. It is a social space on the train (for either hanging with a group of friends or for chatting with strangers) that other modes of transportation lack, so for me one of the draws of train travel. Most trains may not have the lounge cars of yesteryear but I still cherish those spaces - whether they be great ones like the lounge on the Caledonian Sleepers in Scotland, or good ones like the Sightseer Lounges, or simple cafe cars - as one example of what makes train travel more dignified than flying or taking the bus, the ability to do something other than just merely sit in your seat waiting to arrive at your destination.


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## Ryan (Feb 27, 2017)

A Voice said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Continuing saga of the rest of IPH business ...
> ...


If they had $3,368,731 in the bank before they made their $3,368,730 payment, they would have a little trouble making payroll, don't you think?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 27, 2017)

30% Royalty would explain why EEE wife wrote a children's book about Christmas story that includes a train trip.


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## A Voice (Feb 27, 2017)

Per a post on TrainOrders, the Hoosier State as of March 1st under Amtrak operates with Horizon fleet equipment; Both coach and business class seating, a staffed cafe car, and - for at least the first month - the 10031 dome.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 28, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Per a post on TrainOrders, the Hoosier State as of March 1st under Amtrak operates with Horizon fleet equipment; Both coach and business class seating, a staffed cafe car, and - for at least the first month - the 10031 dome.


Ok now. Staffed Lounge, and Dome. I thought Amtrak was not allow to lose money on its State Contacts. I wonder if Indiana is pay Amtrak more for the equipment, or did Amtrak discover the T+E charges were a bit too much.

However it should be note the Dome Car is a promotional item. So Amtrak may not be charging for it.


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## CoachSlumber (Feb 28, 2017)

A Voice said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > Palmetto said:
> ...


I'm all for state-subsidized trains--for most of the reasons you name. But I just can't justify this one. My personal perspective: I often take the train even though it might cost more and take longer. I wanted to take this one, but its departure and arrival times just made it ridiculous. I just couldn't see any point in riding it other than for the train ride itself, not for actual transportation. The times make using it for a weekend in Indy untenable. If people like me aren't going to spring for it, I don't think many average travelers are likely to.


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## CHamilton (Feb 28, 2017)

> Wi-Fi, Business Class and Café Car on the new Amtrak Hoosier StatePromotions and “Great Dome” railcar for launch of revamped service
> 
> The Indiana Department of Transportation, community partners and Amtrak announce passenger amenities on board the Hoosier State service when it transitions to modern Amtrak railcars and locomotives on Wednesday, March 1. The train operates four days a week between Indianapolis and Chicago with intermediate stops in Crawfordsville, Lafayette, Rensselaer and Dyer.


http://www.in.gov/activecalendar/EventList.aspx?view=EventDetails&eventidn=257448&information_id=255819&type&syndicate=syndicate


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## PaulM (Feb 28, 2017)

CHamilton said:


> http://www.in.gov/activecalendar/EventList.aspx?view=EventDetails&eventidn=257448&information_id=255819&type&syndicate=syndicate


I don't think I've ever seen such an information heavy document dealing with Amtrak!


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## Carolina Special (Feb 28, 2017)

Wi-Fi, business class and cafe car all on one train! Plus some phase in perks for a month or so.

Be still my beating heart.


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## rtabern (Feb 28, 2017)

I am curious -- maybe someone more in the know than I can answer --

Is INDOT paying Amtrak for the dome car to be on the train? Or is Amtrak doing it for free in an attempt to kiss up to INDOT and maybe get the permanent contract back beyond June 30?


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## ruck (Mar 1, 2017)

Cellphone pic. Headed north out of Lafayette.


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## ayezee (Mar 1, 2017)

ruck said:


> Cellphone pic. Headed north out of Lafayette.


Is that second locomotive one of the new Chargers? It's lines look different than the lead locomotive.


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## CCC1007 (Mar 1, 2017)

ayezee said:


> ruck said:
> 
> 
> > Cellphone pic. Headed north out of Lafayette.
> ...


I see one locomotive leading two horizon cars, an amfleet, and the dome.


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## jis (Mar 1, 2017)

There is no second locomotive. There is a strategically located roadside post that makes it look like there is a separation between the front and the rear of the single locomotive.

The two Horizons are Coaches. The Amfleet is a BC + Cafe, and the Dome is of course the Dome.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 1, 2017)

jis said:


> ... strategically located roadside post ...


Win for the day.


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## ruck (Mar 1, 2017)

Yeah that's a post. Sorry again about the quality, this is not terribly out of my way to work and is the least obscured area.

I know some folks that were on board, and in a text they mentioned that it was announced that all passengers will be getting Lounge access in Chicago as well.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 1, 2017)

A picture by cell phone is better than no picture at all.

Now on to the question of the this deal. How much is Amtrak charging Indiana?


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## jis (Mar 1, 2017)

Unless Indiana wants to share that info or someone wants to chase an FOIA to Amtrak, it is unlikely that we will know.


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## KnightRail (Mar 1, 2017)

bmjhagen9426 said:


> Will the Hoosier State be used to deadhead equipment to and from Beech Grove, after going back to Amtrak?


Tonight's run should confirm that in the affirmative.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 1, 2017)

One thinks Indiana has to show the people of Indiana were it spends its funds. It might be a while, but it will show up.

As far as a FOIA just don't see the point. A congressional inquiry just to make sure that Amtrak not supporting a less than 750 mile route, would do too. But I am going to wait to see Indiana published there budget numbers. So much less work.


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## jis (Mar 1, 2017)

I suspect the Congress might have a few more pressing matters on its hand to worry too much about inquiring after Amtrak for a while. Afterall, there is no Mica to keep the fires burning on that one. Waiting for Indiana to disclose is the best approach methinks.


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## Anderson (Mar 1, 2017)

My guess is that it's a promotional item of some sort.

Also, the "cost" for the dome is likely negligible (an extra car's fuel cost and some minimal depreciation). Moreover, as far as I can tell there _is_ some wiggle room in the law about state contracts (hence the deal PA got, for example)...and I suspect that Amtrak is probably kissing up a bit for obvious reasons. There is _nothing_ saying that if IP comes back with a worked-out contract that can meet the state's parameters, Amtrak might not get thrown _right _back off the route.


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## John Bredin (Mar 1, 2017)

rtabern said:


> As much as we all love trains and train travel... and I would hate to see ANY service get cut ... I have yet to see someone on the forum actually present an argument to justify a state paying a $100-130 per passenger subsidy for train service that is: A) Just 190 miles long... B) Almost all of the route parallels an interstate highway... C) Dinks along taking 1 hour and 10 minutes to go just 30 miles from Dyer to Chicago switching between a half dozen freight railroads... D) Takes almost 2 hours longer than driving... E) Takes 1 hour and 30 minutes longer than the bus... F) Mainly provides service for people to LEAVE your state (Indiana) and spend money in another (Illinois) for a day trip... G) Doesn't really encourage tourism to your state (no one from Chicago is going to arrive in Indy at Midnight and turn around and come back at 6am the next day)... H) Operates at ungodly hours... etc, etc.


Michigan pays for two trains for which many of these things are true. The _Pere Marquette_ is A, B, C*, D (about an hour longer), and F. The _Blue Water_ is B, C*, F, and H (for the eastern end of the line). *C=in Indiana west of Porter, when an otherwise-fast train can labor through traffic and long red lights worse than any city driving.

Apparently, Michigan considers its citizens being able to easily reach Chicago, the hub of the Midwest not just for train travel, to be a feature and not a bug, even though it entails "Mainly provid[ing] service for people to LEAVE your state and spend money in another (Illinois) for a day trip."

As to G, while Chicago-area residents aren't going to use such a schedule for a day trip, I know people use the _Pere Marquette_ in the summer beach season to leave Chicago Friday night and return to Chicago Monday morning.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 4, 2017)

I'm not sure the day trip Hoosier State will work. If 850 leaves CHI at 7:45am, it'll get to IND at 1:30pm at best, and the return will have to leave around 6pm (CHI at 10:05pm) leaving only 4.5 hrs in IND. This can help Purdue's students though.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 5, 2017)

rtabern said:


> I am curious -- maybe someone more in the know than I can answer --
> 
> Is INDOT paying Amtrak for the dome car to be on the train? Or is Amtrak doing it for free in an attempt to kiss up to INDOT and maybe get the permanent contract back beyond June 30?



I believe it is promotional but 'm not sure if your term is accurate. Why would Amtrak need to kiss up to someone? After all, they still have the operational portion of the train. Now, they have to divert cars that were busy elsewhere to cover the service. Sure, the costs are covered but those cars weren't exactly sitting idle.

I suspect it is about cooperation and working with your partners. Do you remember when the SEPTA Silverliner V fleet was benched last year? Did you call it "kissing up" to Penn.Dot and SEPTA when Amtrak provided them with a set of Amfleets and 4 ACS-64s?

PS: SEPTA still has an ACS-64s, months later.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2017)

http://wbaa.org/post/acrimony-past-amtrak-indot-cooperate-improve-hoosier-state-train#stream/0

The current contract between Amtrak and InDOT is till June 30th. Some of the extras maybe only till March 30th. Not clear which ones. Perhaps the Dome Car is one of those extras.


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## A Voice (Mar 8, 2017)

jis said:


> http://wbaa.org/post/acrimony-past-amtrak-indot-cooperate-improve-hoosier-state-train#stream/0
> 
> The current contract between Amtrak and InDOT is till June 30th. Some of the extras maybe only till March 30th. Not clear which ones. Perhaps the Dome Car is one of those extras.


Thanks for the link. In my opinion, this little quote speaks volumes, and not just about the _Hoosier State_:



> INDOT spokesman Will Wingfield says relations improved in September when former Amtrak President and CEO Joe Boardman retired


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## jis (Mar 9, 2017)

Came across this article on IPH from several years back. Thei financial trials and travails apparently are nothing new:

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/article/zz/20130803/NEWS/130807647


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