# Florida East Coast Proposes Passenger Service



## PRR 60 (Mar 22, 2012)

As an interesting follow up to the topic concerning freight railroads taking over passenger service, Florida East Coast Industries, the real estate arm of the FEC Railway, is proposing the construction and operation of 100% private passenger rail service between Miami and Orlando. From the press release:



> Florida East Coast Industries, Inc. (FECI), the owner of Florida’s premier passenger rail corridor, is developing a privately owned, operated and maintained passenger rail service to connect South Florida and Orlando, which will be operational in 2014. By connecting the most visited city in the United States with South Florida’s business and vacation destinations, the passenger rail project, called All Aboard Florida, is designed to serve Florida’s growing number of business travelers, as well as families and tourists traveling for pleasure.
> ...Targeted to begin service in 2014, the approximately $1 billion project will operate on a regular schedule throughout the day transporting business and leisure passengers between South Florida and Orlando in approximately three hours.


All Aboard Florida


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## George Harris (Mar 22, 2012)

FEC does not go to Orlando


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## Mackensen (Mar 22, 2012)

George Harris said:


> FEC does not go to Orlando


Taken from their fact sheet:



> Where: The new route will feature passenger service along Florida East Coast Railway’s existing tracks from Miami to Cocoa and the creation of new tracks into Orlando. Eventually the system will be expanded to Tampa and Jacksonville.


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## pennyk (Mar 22, 2012)

WOW!!!

If this really happens, I can see a potential gathering in Florida in about 3 years.

BTW - the article speaks about the fact that 40 miles between Cocoa and Orlando would have to be added by FEC.


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## Ryan (Mar 22, 2012)

Yep, noted that here, as it ties nicely in with their hire of Gene Skoropowski.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/46863-skoropowski-to-the-fec/page__view__findpost__p__355441


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 22, 2012)

See this link:Skoropowski to the FEC

EDIT: I'm slow! :lol:


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## afigg (Mar 22, 2012)

George Harris said:


> FEC does not go to Orlando


Ah, but the plan is to do so. Quoting from the All Aboard Florida website:

"•Where: The new route will feature passenger service along Florida East Coast Railway’s existing tracks from Miami to Cocoa and the creation of new tracks into Orlando. Eventually the system will be expanded to Tampa and Jacksonville.

When: 200 of 240 miles of Right of Way (ROW) are already in place and have been in service as an operating railroad for over a century, which allows for passenger service between South Florida and Orlando to be up and running in 2014."

The details are extremely skimpy, but it looks like they intend to build new east-west tracks from the FEC to Orlando. This could get very interesting.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 22, 2012)

One has to wonder if this project got wheels before or after the cancellation of Florida's HSR...

In either case, this will change things if it gets off the ground. The implications for Amtrak are obviously numerous.


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## MattW (Mar 22, 2012)

Any guesses how fast the trains will reach and/or what class the new Cocoa-Orlando tracks will be built to? I've heard that most of the FEC is good for 90mph already.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 22, 2012)

This should be a very interesting 'experiment' of sorts. To seemingly state the obvious, success with a privately held FEC could mean that passenger rail in the United States is indeed turning that proverbial page into a new chapter.

Now, once it is up and running, they need to integrate into the National picture with something like through-ticketing. Buy a single ticket from, say, NYP to Orlando and have both your Amtrak and FEC fare on one document. E-ticketing should simplify that, and with Skoropowski involved, he would likely advocate something like this quite strongly.


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## afigg (Mar 22, 2012)

Infographic on their website showing the planned route: http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/All-Aboard-Florida-Infographic.jpg

The implications for Amtrak in terms of their current Florida business is, in my initial reaction, positive because Amtrak only run 3 LD trains to Florida. The FEC is not going to be interested in running LD trains north of Florida. Figuring that they would allow Amtrak to operate over their tracks, would provide a faster and more populated Orlando to Miami, a JAX to Miami route for Amtrak to run the Silvers over. Most importantly, a FEC corridor service would provide a much bigger passenger base in Florida to draw from for east coast LD trains. The hit to Amtrak is that, if the FEC has the funding to do this, Amtrak won't be running a corridor service over the FEC from Miami to JAX.

Amtrak now has competition for intercity rail, although this may well be a special case because the FEC is a small operation that happens to have under-utilized good quality tracks.

The longer term political implications could be very interesting.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 22, 2012)

One thing about the FEC is that it has more than a 'trainload' of at-grade crossings. I'd think this has been factored into the plans, but it is still something to consider. Then there is the building of the new line. How long would the review process take? And if it ended up in the courts... hboy:


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## rrdude (Mar 22, 2012)

Ulterior motives at work here folks. Gives them a better bargaining chip to deal with state, Amtrak.

I WISH it were true, and maybe the folks at FEC believe it to be. But you can bet your arse that the execs at FEC are doing this for several reasons, and will have already lined up the politicos for tax breaks, job creation credits, etc., etc. And that's great.

I truly, truly hope this comes to pass, but I'm not holding my breath.

Although Gene Skoropowski's hiring certainly adds fuel-to-the-fire.

Go FEC!


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## Blackwolf (Mar 22, 2012)

After reading through the All Aboard Florida website, a question about rolling stock options has struck me.

*What do you think the FEC would be interested in procuring for rail cars?*

Would they possibly latch onto the soon to be announced Bi-Level car order and nab a fleet of CalCar II's? Or are there restrictions in Florida that would confine them to single-level service? What about the Talgo's in Wisconsin? Without having been through Florida since the 90's, I have no idea what the track configuration is, and if a Talgo trainset would be suitable there; are there enough twists and turns to make an active-tilt option useful?

The website informally leads to the suggestion that FEC would buy and/or lease brand new rolling stock. It is also mentioned that there will be a premium Business Class option on top of Coach. Without tax money being involved, there would be no Buy America clause imposed. Very interesting, and certainly worth debating!


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## Ryan (Mar 22, 2012)

I was thinking about that myself. Does Amtrak own the rights to the Viewliner Design, or could the FEC call up and place an order for some VL Coaches? Since the production line is up and running, that would eliminate some costs.


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## rrdude (Mar 22, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> After reading through the All Aboard Florida website, a question about rolling stock options has struck me.
> 
> *What do you think the FEC would be interested in procuring for rail cars?*
> 
> ...


I can't really envision ANYthing besides true HSR rail working here. However, Gene did a great job in Cali without true HSR, but would it be enuff to secure enuff paying PAX to make it profitable? Obviously FEC is not doing this for "fun", they think they can make a go of it.

I'd bet if they are going the HSR route, they will be applying for all kinds of govt loans, grants, etc., and they SHOULD get them!

But it's hard for me to see HrSR rail racking up profits, and taking cars off the roads, people out of planes......


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## HeadingNorth (Mar 22, 2012)

Anyone want to bet pro-privatization Rep. Mica is in on this? "Here in my district, we have private-sector railroads..."


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## Gratt (Mar 22, 2012)

The first thing I have to say about this is WOW just WOW if FEC RR pulls this off they will officially become my favorite RR :wub:

That being said I do not believe for a second that they are going to pay to upgrade their own tracks and add the leg to Orlando all on their own dime.

I bet Florida and the federal government will have to shell out 1 Billion to get the extra track and upgrades.

I can also see it happening, "connecting Orlando to Miami for half the cost of the Orlando-Tampa HSR sounds like a great deal." It will also make many republicans happy knowing this is a private company and their is no chance the state will have to pay for continuing service.

Oh, and the reason I am saying the current FEC tracks are not good enough is because of a bit of math. In their own site they are talking about 3 hours Orlando-Miami MattW said they have track capable of 90mph, but according to google maps its about 240 miles between the two via I-95 that means 80mph on average. With stops your going to need a lot of track that is rated for 110mph, and that is not going to be cheap.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 22, 2012)

Well, this is very interesting. The timetable seems very aggressive, but I sincerely doubt if obtaining the right of way and construction of the new 40-miles of track could be accomplished in two years, not to mention the acquisition of rolling stock. Gene Skoropowski's involvement is very promising. They claim no government money will be involved, but the cost of this venture will be in the billions. Maybe they have some investors from Europe who are savvy to rail travel's potential. I wish them a lot of luck, it would certainly be a game changer.


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## Trogdor (Mar 22, 2012)

MattW said:


> Any guesses how fast the trains will reach and/or what class the new Cocoa-Orlando tracks will be built to? I've heard that most of the FEC is good for 90mph already.


If the timetable I saw is correct, the FEC has a maximum speed of 60 mph. That implies class 4 track, which is max 80 for passengers.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 22, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> Well, this is very interesting. The timetable seems very aggressive, but I sincerely doubt if obtaining the right of way and construction of the new 40-miles of track could be accomplished in two years, not to mention the acquisition of rolling stock. Gene Skoropowski's involvement is very promising. They claim no government money will be involved, but the cost of this venture will be in the billions. Maybe they have some investors from Europe who are savvy to rail travel's potential. I wish them a lot of luck, it would certainly be a game changer.



On the All Aboard Florida website, they mention the possibility of using an 'existing ROW' from Cocoa to Orlando. I'm fairly certain that there isn't an active rail line between Cocoa and Orlando, so it made me wonder if they are looking into using part of the Route 528 ROW. (Wouldn't that be something provided by government?)

This also brings up the question: "Where will the Orlando train station be located?" My guess is at the airport and not downtown. This would generate more riders, IMHO, and I believe that in anticipation of HSR, some planning and work has already gone into providing for a station at MCO.

I just did the Orlando Amtrak to MCO taxi ride. It was close to $40.00 with tip. Not cheap, but a Thruway connection could be provided.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 22, 2012)

Here is an article from Progressive Railroading with a few more details:

Progressive Railroading


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## henryj (Mar 22, 2012)

Send them to Texas.............PLEASE.


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## jis (Mar 22, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> Well, this is very interesting. The timetable seems very aggressive, but I sincerely doubt if obtaining the right of way and construction of the new 40-miles of track could be accomplished in two years, not to mention the acquisition of rolling stock. Gene Skoropowski's involvement is very promising. They claim no government money will be involved, but the cost of this venture will be in the billions. Maybe they have some investors from Europe who are savvy to rail travel's potential. I wish them a lot of luck, it would certainly be a game changer.


It depends on what real estate FECI owns where. There is no reason that 40 miles of track should cost billions of dollars if somehow the land for putting it on is available for cheap.

Anyway at present it is equivalent to a tier II feasibility study. More real numbers will be known when that comes to a conclusion. They can claim that they met the 2014 date if they can start Miami - Cocoa service by 2014, which of course they and everyone else knows they can. Worst case they will have to pick up a string of NJT Comet IV or Vs as a starter and a couple of spare diesels from their own roster and equip them for HEP. I would be truly surprised if they can actually build out to Orlando and introduce service by 2014 on the Cocoa - Orlando leg. but I have seen such things done in India, so it is not physically impossible.

Cocoa is the logical point to take off from the FEC main towards Orlando. That is where they can get onto the median of Beachline Expressway, which has the space along most of its ROW for a double track railroad down the middle or on one side of the highway. There are also reasonable highway rights of way available to the the line to either Orlando Downtown or Lake Buena Vista/Disney are or both, perhaps even with a stop at or close to MCO.

BTW, this plan is not inconsistent with a parallel plan to runa section of one of the Silvers down FEC. Indeed, it reduces the net cost that that project would have to bear due to cost sharing on stations south of Cocoa/Rockledge inclusive. Only additional stations needed for it would be the four or five north of Cocoa.

This is a really exciting development. Let us see what comes out of the due diligence and how the business plan looks when they have real number to play with.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 22, 2012)

jis said:


> BTW, this plan is not inconsistent with a parallel plan to runa section of one of the Silvers down FEC. Indeed, it reduces the net cost that that project would have to bear due to cost sharing on stations south of Cocoa/Rockledge inclusive. Only additional stations needed for it would be the four or five north of Cocoa.


And the hiring of Skoropowski would seem to indicate that FEC wants to 'play nice.'

Also the linked article from PRR60 indicates that the FEC has not decided



> ...what firm will operate the trains...


Hmmmm....


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## Anderson (Mar 22, 2012)

This is in keeping with the chat I had with Daniel Lyons last year (on the NB Star at dinner). FEC has two motives here:

1) They're expecting a state subsidy for the operation; and

2) If they pull the passenger line onto _their_ line, it will increase the value of their real estate holdings along that line.

I think this is possible. This isn't some minor startup jumping in over their head; I would _not_ be surprised if FECI has most or all of the $1 billion on hand.

One thing that is interesting to ponder is what this would do for the state's "corridor service" proposals. I'm presuming that this would preempt them, but you could get into an interesting situation down the road. The other question, of course, is going to be "Who operates the train and gets the revenue from a Silver train on FEC tracks?" Does Amtrak plan to hand over operations to the FEC at JAX like the ACL did back in the 50s?

Edit: Another issue here: Amtrak views the FEC as a competitor, as I understand it, and there was some suggestion that Amtrak might try to lock the FEC out of its stations in Miami and Jacksonville if it came to that.


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## bretton88 (Mar 22, 2012)

Anderson said:


> This is in keeping with the chat I had with Daniel Lyons last year (on the NB Star at dinner). FEC has two motives here:
> 
> 1) They're expecting a state subsidy for the operation; and
> 
> ...


My guess is that the FEC will operate the service itself, in that way, if there are profits, they are kept "in house." The FEC will probably laugh at amtrak if they try to get locked out of the stations, as they can use Miami's new Intermodal station and the historic station in Jacksonville. In that way they'll never have to worry about Amtrak. And this could probably mean that Amtrak's plan to route the Silvers down the FEC will never happen. But the FEC's real incentive here is to get their underutilized properties up in value, my guess is they have already figured out that they can recoup their billion dollars in increased property values and increased visibility. Any profits that the train might have is a bonus to them. And if they're lucky, they can get a CMAQ grant to fund operations for 3 years, which by then the train might be profitable.


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## Mackensen (Mar 22, 2012)

bretton88 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > This is in keeping with the chat I had with Daniel Lyons last year (on the NB Star at dinner). FEC has two motives here:
> ...


I'd like to see a cross-ticketing arrangement; at the very least the option to take the FEC to Jacksonville and then switch to a Silver train going north. I suppose that depends on how Amtrak and FEC feel about each other.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 22, 2012)

A state subsidy, CMAQ funds and even use of the Beeline Expressway right of way would be all be at odds at their "no government funding" promise.

There's no reason this would interfere would Amtrak running its LD trains down the FEC from Jacksonville. They could be operated just like every Amtrak train is run outside the northeast corridor. Amtrak wouldn't have to "turn over" the trains to the FEC.

There's also no reason for Amtrak to try and interfere with this operation. Anything that expands passenger rail service helps Amtrak. The Miami terminal would probably be downtown or at the Miami Airport, certainly not at the Amtrak station in an out of the way neighborhood.

The use of the expressway right of way would speed up the construction aspect, but unless things have already been greased with the state of Florida, it's still a pretty aggressive timetable.

Expansion from Orlando to the West Coast could be done on the I-4 expressway, just like the proposed high speed service.

This is all very interesting.


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## Ryan (Mar 22, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> A state subsidy, CMAQ funds and even use of the Beeline Expressway right of way would be all be at odds at their "no government funding" promise.


What "no government funding" promise?

From the article linked above:



> And while the line’s operations, maintenance and ownership will be “100 percent privately funded with no risk to the state,” Barney [Christine Barney, AAF spokesperson] did not rule out the possibility of obtaining at least some public funds for the line’s construction.
> 
> “What, if any, minor participation from the state may be required is premature to say at this time,” she says.


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## George Harris (Mar 22, 2012)

A few quick comments:

FEC tracks do not go to the current West Palm Beach Station, Miami Station or any station in between currenly used.

If their objective is development and improvement of their properties, they are truly returning to their roots. Henry Flagler built up the railroad to be far better than the traffic demanded to entice people down to develop southeast Florida. The railroad itself never paid a dividend during the whole of its passenger carrying existance.

Anyone who has ever dealt with the all but insurmountable roadblocks that current regualations put in the way of building any new transportation facility beyond subdivision streets will consider the proposed time frame as a hallucination.

Just because the current speed limit on the railroad is 60 mph for freight does not mean that track conditions restrict passenger train speed limits to 80 mph. It is entirely likely that the track conditions could support higher speeds. However, the current signal system does restrict them to 79 mph. Also, if they are serious about frequent high speed service, the second main will need to be reinstalled. That will cost quite a bit of money.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 22, 2012)

Ryan said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > A state subsidy, CMAQ funds and even use of the Beeline Expressway right of way would be all be at odds at their "no government funding" promise.
> ...


Was that quote from the Progressive Railroading story? I couldn't connect to that. If that is the case, then they're already changing their tune from the All Aboard Florida Factsheet:

"Who: FECI would own, operate and manage the passenger rail line. Florida’s taxpayers will have no ongoing construction or operating risks."


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## afigg (Mar 22, 2012)

There is a lot yet to find out and probably a lot of public and behind the scenes back and forth to go through as this all plays out. I don't see why the FEC would block Amtrak LD trains from operating over their tracks if Amtrak pays trackage fees as it does elsewhere. Amtrak can bring more customers to the FEC service and vice versa, assuming someone else other than Amtrak runs the service.

Who builds and owns any new stations to be built is to be determined, but my bet is that the FEC will look to the state, local towns and communities to build and maintain the stations, so the FEC Industries doesn't have to deal with the capital costs and headaches of managing the station. Much of their project has to be based on the state plans for the FEC corridor service and HSR ROW from Cocoa to Orlando, and then to Tampa. Obviously service to Orlando over a yet to be subject to EIS, design, and build 40 miles of track by 2014 is not going to happen.

The guy FEC hired, Eugene Skoropowski, as VP - Passenger Service Development to oversee this was previously managing director of Capitol Corridor Joint Power Authority in California for 10 years, previous stints with SEPTA, MBTA, Flour Corporation which included involvement in HSR in the Netherlands. Long experience in passenger rail and certainly no stranger to Amtrak. A short profile can be found on page 26 of the March 2012 Railway Age Magazine which is available on-line at http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/ra0312/#/44. Warning this is a pop-up application which may not work in all browsers or on tablets.


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## Ryan (Mar 22, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> Was that quote from the Progressive Railroading story? I couldn't connect to that. If that is the case, then they're already changing their tune from the All Aboard Florida Factsheet:
> 
> "Who: FECI would own, operate and manage the passenger rail line. Florida’s taxpayers will have no ongoing construction or operating risks."


Yes, it was.

And I wouldn't say that's changing their story - that's not a "no government funding" promise.


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## bretton88 (Mar 22, 2012)

My guess is that 2014 start is a little deceiving. My guess is that is startup on the initial segment and not all the way to Orlando.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 22, 2012)

> The majority of the approximately $1 billion construction cost would be privately funded


It would appear that this project could cost taxpayers up to a half billion in public funding and not run afoul of their carefully worded "100% Private Operation" claims. Is there anything to prevent the FEC from spending a half billion in order to secure similar funds for future passenger service that never pans out or is simply abandoned shortly after inception? Seems the benefit of a billion dollar renovation to the ROW would still be of a substantial benefit to the FEC regardless of whatever eventually happens to their passenger project.

Source: http://www.allaboardflorida.com/blog


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## afigg (Mar 22, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> > The majority of the approximately $1 billion construction cost would be privately funded
> 
> 
> It would appear that this project could cost taxpayers up to a half billion in public funding and not run afoul of their carefully worded "100% Private Operation" claims. Is there anything to prevent the FEC from spending a half billion in order to secure similar funds for future passenger service that never pans out or is simply abandoned shortly after inception? Seems the benefit of a billion dollar renovation to the ROW would still be of a substantial benefit to the FEC regardless of whatever eventually happens to their passenger project.


This project would likely qualify for the FRA RRIF loan program which are at federal Treasury note rates matching the duration of the loan. The current rate for a 20 year note has moved up to around 3 to 3.1%. If the FEC can secure 51% private funding and 49% in RRIF loans, that meet their majority qualification.

However, is $1 billion a reasonable estimate to acquire 40 miles of ROW and build 40 miles of grade separated double track certified for 90 or 110 mph speeds? Maybe they expect Florida to either give or lease the ROW for next to nothing? That part might be realistic with backroom deals if FL does not have to pay for the corridor service. Will the FEC now pay for the crossover connection to the Tri-Rail tracks to get to Miami which was one of the major components of the state supported FEC corridor plan? More questions than answers at this time.


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## Anderson (Mar 22, 2012)

afigg said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > > The majority of the approximately $1 billion construction cost would be privately funded
> ...


I could buy a lowball lease deal...and honestly, I wouldn't begrudge it as long as they commit to the service being sustained (and/or _have_ to let Amtrak run the service if they bail for some reason). In all fairness, I would consider it a valid subsidy to public transportation to basically "let them have it" in exchange for a service commitment.

My guess is that funding will probably come from three sources. One will be FECI, who probably wants to do some freight business with the track (even if it is time-separated nighttime business; IIRC, the FEC has a deal going with Norfolk Southern to give them access to Florida...and this would certainly be one way for NS to get backdoor access to Tampa in the long run), and who may even expect the service to be profitable. Number two would be the RRIF. Number three is going to be the Florida government (remember, there's already some money set aside for the Amtrak service that is bottled up in liability issues; it would _not_ be hard to pull part or all of that funding and hand it to FEC for this) and/or local governments (who may kick in some money for station building).

Here's the other question: Absent the service going to Tampa (yet), is there any chance of the service connecting to Orlando Union Station to allow connections to Amtrak, Tri-Rail, and a closer connection to downtown than an airport station would offer?

Edit: Also, how would something that ran through Orlando to Tampa be set up? Roughly in the vein of the planned high-speed alignment? Or something different?


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## AlanB (Mar 22, 2012)

Ryan said:


> I was thinking about that myself. Does Amtrak own the rights to the Viewliner Design, or could the FEC call up and place an order for some VL Coaches? Since the production line is up and running, that would eliminate some costs.


Amtrak owns the Viewliner design, so any such cars could only be built with Amtrak's approval and no doubt some money changing hands.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 22, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking about that myself. Does Amtrak own the rights to the Viewliner Design, or could the FEC call up and place an order for some VL Coaches? Since the production line is up and running, that would eliminate some costs.
> ...


Maybe we just found a home for the homeless Wisconsin Talgos! Hello, FEC? This is Wisconsin DOT calling.


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## dlagrua (Mar 22, 2012)

I'd welcome the entry of private industry into the passenger rail business. Then we can see if private industry does it best or if government does it best. One thing for certain is that Amtrak is not being permitted to grow. They can't add many if any new routes and they struggle to maintain the minimalist service that they now operate. If private industry wants to restart the Desert Wind, Floridian, Carolinian, Broadway Limited, Sunset Florida Connection and the Pioneer Zyphyr let's give them a shot. Amtrak is certainly not going to do it.


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## Ryan (Mar 22, 2012)

Not with their current budget.

Give them the money to buy the rolling stock and you'd be surprised at what you may see.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 22, 2012)

dlagrua said:


> I'd welcome the entry of private industry into the passenger rail business. Then we can see if private industry does it best or if government does it best. One thing for certain is that Amtrak is not being permitted to grow. They can't add many if any new routes and they struggle to maintain the minimalist service that they now operate. If private industry wants to restart the Desert Wind, Floridian, Carolinian, Broadway Limited, Sunset Florida Connection and the Pioneer Zyphyr let's give them a shot. Amtrak is certainly not going to do it.


The examples of service you say a private operator could run are all long-distance. The operation in Florida being proposed here is a corridor service much like the few successful systems that we have here in the US.


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## railiner (Mar 23, 2012)

This is certainly great and unexpected news...who would have thought?

One other benefit of the proposed Cocoa to Orlando extension would be to shuttle passenger from Orlando airport to embark the cruise ships at Port Canaveral, as well as shuttling cruise ship passengers making a 'port of call' at Port Canaveral over to the Orlando theme parks--currently a very substantial business in its own right....


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## ParrotRob (Mar 23, 2012)

Henry Flagler would be so proud!


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## Anderson (Mar 23, 2012)

dlagrua said:


> I'd welcome the entry of private industry into the passenger rail business. Then we can see if private industry does it best or if government does it best. One thing for certain is that Amtrak is not being permitted to grow. They can't add many if any new routes and they struggle to maintain the minimalist service that they now operate. If private industry wants to restart the Desert Wind, Floridian, Carolinian, Broadway Limited, Sunset Florida Connection and the Pioneer Zyphyr let's give them a shot. Amtrak is certainly not going to do it.


Which Carolinian are you speaking of?

As to the rest of those, the problem is that most were money pits on a relative basis. Witness the estimates regarding a restarted Pioneer and/or the Sunset East in particular. The Floridian might have better luck (as might the Desert Wind, depending on how much business can be drummed up LAX-Las Vegas), but I don't see any of them breaking even before you get a bunch of corridors in better shape absent a big spike in sleeping car availability.


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## dlagrua (Mar 23, 2012)

Anderson said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > I'd welcome the entry of private industry into the passenger rail business. Then we can see if private industry does it best or if government does it best. One thing for certain is that Amtrak is not being permitted to grow. They can't add many if any new routes and they struggle to maintain the minimalist service that they now operate. If private industry wants to restart the Desert Wind, Floridian, Carolinian, Broadway Limited, Sunset Florida Connection and the Pioneer Zyphyr let's give them a shot. Amtrak is certainly not going to do it.
> ...


I agree that years back most of the routes mentioned lost money and subsequently were discontinued but this is a new era. Rail travel continues to grow at a good pace and as the cost of oil rises it is certain that passengers will continue to flock to the rails. As for LD; perhaps the new Pullman service will determine whether or not there is a need. I believe that Pullman will be successful. When many Amtrak routes regularly sell out and you can't find a sleeper unless you are willing to search regularly and/or pay an exorbitant price, it should say that more and longer trains are needed.

As for the Carolinian that the wrong reference. I was referring to the service than ran South to Jacksonville Fl then headed West to Ocala. I believe that service is no longer in place. It may have been called the Silver Palm or might have been the old Palmetto route.


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## jphjaxfl (Mar 23, 2012)

I think the future of passenger trains will be corridor routes with day trains offering standard coach & first class service. I think existing overnight sleeping car trains will continue, but I think new LD trains and new sleeping cars provided will be limited. The new FEC plan mentioned first class service with luxury dining. I think this will be similar to Acela First class. The other thing to keep in mind is FEC is heavily non union. Flagler Holdings has significant real estate holdings along the east coast of Fl and elsewhere and is under the same ownership as the FEC Railroad.


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## VentureForth (Mar 23, 2012)

afigg said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > The majority of the approximately $1 billion construction cost would be privately funded
> ...


The New Mexico Rail Runner Express - Phase II (the section between Rio Rancho and Santa Fe) cost only $250M for nearly 40 miles of all new track. This didn't include a ton of real estate (though it may have because it's a State venture operating on Federal property where it runs in the I-25 Median). And, it's only 79 MPH. But there were significant grade issues. It's a steep climb from Albuquerque to Santa Fe.

6,000 New _construction_ jobs. Without all the hassles of Federal contract laws, there is no doubt they can accomplish this for WAY less and WAY faster than government could. The only issue I see is the connection between Cocoa and Orlando. I'm sure they already have that preliminary work done. If it were a challenge, then I don't think they'd announce it. But the stops. Why try to connect an airport to an airport? The stations and terminals must be in places where the journey can continue. As Orlando is a destination in and of itself, I don't expect the airport to be the best choice. Something along International Drive where access to Universal, Sea World, billions of hotel rooms, the convention center and then access to Disney would probably be the best choice.

And yes. I'm selfish. I would love a one stop ride down the East Coast from Savannah. But I would be willing to change trains in Jacksonville if the timing was right. But would they try to junction at the current Amtrak station? Hmmm...

That brings up another point. It seems like they would have been better off getting Amtrak to have paid for all the upgrades to the rail and grade crossings, and signalling. But I totally dig the fact that they understand that to run it like a railroad, they have to do it in house. And they have the right people in place to do just that.

From what I can tell, they don't own ANY rail outside the coast. There is actually a nice feeder they could tie into near Hwy 528 on the SE end of the Airport in Orlando. Looks to be in good shape, but I don't know who owns it. That track eventually Y's into the mainline Amtrak (and Sunrail to be) uses near Weatherbee and Orange Ave. I suspect it is CSX track. It's pretty close to the airport, and with significant development could be a GREAT place to have an intermodal center. But it would really be nice to tie up to the Amtrak station a few more miles to the North. Except that it would require either a backup move to turn or bidirectional DMUs. But the Amtrak station STINKS as an intermodal station. There is internothing there.

Sigh. So many challenges! Take both Amtrak and FEC and tie them in at the Florida Mall!!


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## me_little_me (Mar 23, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Why try to connect an airport to an airport? The stations and terminals must be in places where the journey can continue. As Orlando is a destination in and of itself, I don't expect the airport to be the best choice. Something along International Drive where access to Universal, Sea World, billions of hotel rooms, the convention center and then access to Disney would probably be the best choice.


Trains should ALWAYS have a connection if possible at the airport. That does not preclude having one downtown but airports not only provide lots of potential passengers but having airport connections makes for sensible overall travel - train for a short distance and airport for longer ones.

In fact if many of our smaller cities were connected by rail to big city airports, it would dramatically reduce airport and airway congestion. A takeoff/landing is a takeoff/landing whether going to a nearby city or across the country. Each provides the same number of gates, the same runway/taxiway use, the same air traffic controller time and effort and the same congestion in the parking lot and the terminal building. It also means our large airports need more $$ to expand the number of runways and the smaller airports need $$ to be constructed and used.

It is not an either/or situation of airport vs other locations for train stops.


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## afigg (Mar 23, 2012)

me_little_me said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Why try to connect an airport to an airport? The stations and terminals must be in places where the journey can continue. As Orlando is a destination in and of itself, I don't expect the airport to be the best choice. Something along International Drive where access to Universal, Sea World, billions of hotel rooms, the convention center and then access to Disney would probably be the best choice.
> ...


What a station stop at an airport provides is access to a range of local transportation options. States and cities have usually invested a lot of money in building highways to the major airport, so the airport provides good road access from the suburbs and communities around the city. The airport also provides short and long term parking and access to car rental facilities. Someone coming from 100s of miles away on a corridor or LD train may opt to get off at the airport station to get a rental car. The downtown station may not have car rental desks or easy access to local car rental places, until the downtown station gets enough passenger traffic for the car rental companies to get interested in providing service at the station.

The preferred arrangement for corridor lines for major cities should be a downtown station and stations in the denser city areas and then a suburban station, if possible located at or near to the local major airport. The airport station support different passenger categories: local suburban residents driving to the train station and parking at the airport, people flying in/out of the airport, and train passengers people getting off at the airport station because it is closer to their destination or getting a rental car. BWI Airport station on the NEC is a good example of this. A corridor train station at the local airport, in effect, leverages off of the considerable investments that local communities and states have made in their airports facilities and infrastructure.


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## VentureForth (Mar 23, 2012)

I agree with you, afigg. Unfortunately, the train can't really pull up close to the terminal. There is no such thing as a subway in Florida - the water tables are too high. Of course, shuttle service would work fairly well - but it's another really slow way to get to yet another mode of transit.

If I were a betting man, I could see them going to the North end of the airport following FL-528. Orlando already has a plan for two light rail systems in addition to the Sunrail. If these can be built as promised, then one could take the OIA light rail line to the Sun Rail at the next stop or to the other light rail line, the North-South at the Convention Center. So, there could be multiple connections to various places, but that relies on the SunRail projects becoming reality.

Frankly, I think that FEC should extend straight to the Convention Center with a stop at the airport and perhaps have a major junction with the SunRail and potentially a new and improved Amtrak intermodal station at Sand Lake Road near the rail yard where there seems to be plenty of room.


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## jis (Mar 23, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> I agree with you, afigg. Unfortunately, the train can't really pull up close to the terminal. There is no such thing as a subway in Florida - the water tables are too high. Of course, shuttle service would work fairly well - but it's another really slow way to get to yet another mode of transit.
> 
> If I were a betting man, I could see them going to the North end of the airport following FL-528. Orlando already has a plan for two light rail systems in addition to the Sunrail. If these can be built as promised, then one could take the OIA light rail line to the Sun Rail at the next stop or to the other light rail line, the North-South at the Convention Center. So, there could be multiple connections to various places, but that relies on the SunRail projects becoming reality.
> 
> Frankly, I think that FEC should extend straight to the Convention Center with a stop at the airport and perhaps have a major junction with the SunRail and potentially a new and improved Amtrak intermodal station at Sand Lake Road near the rail yard where there seems to be plenty of room.


I agree and I like that idea.


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## afigg (Mar 23, 2012)

Fred Frailey's latest column at Trains Magazine website has some additional information on the plans for the FEC passenger service. Service would start at 79 mph speeds, while upgrades and double tracking are done for up to 110 mph. I saw elsewhere that the 40 miles of new track to Orlando may be 125 mph tracks. As new tracks, presumably would be free of grade crossings, but by the time a diesel train accelerated to 125 mph, might not stay at 125 mph for long before it has to start braking for the next stop.


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## NE933 (Mar 23, 2012)

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my! FEC and Amtrak and SunRail, oh wow!!

Something like this was LLLLLLLOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGGGGG ago written on the wall with flashing neon lights, though the part that surprised me was how soon it got to this level.

Cmon, Gene Skoropowski's leaving California for Florida was as obvious as a ripe tomato on a salad plate, and though have mixed feelings on some of this, believe it will be good. I adore Amtrak and not it's gunked up leadership that's been as slow as u-know-what had it coming to them. Almost two years has lapsed since the special Viewliner and Amfleet II ran on FEC tracks, and Joe B. sat on it like a hen on an egg that never hatched.

And what of the Sunset East/Panhandle/Jacksonville to New Orleans route that's been languishing? Amtrak is short of resources but the people who lead it must hear us demand that we want an answer!! Now!! Joe B. has therefore earned his trousers-splitting kick in the derriere many moons ago, all pun intended. I just wish that Amtrak snatched up Gene S. for CEO instead of FEC; God, we would've been running full trains to alot more places by now more often by now, I'm certain.

Note to readers: I made a *MAJOR* error in wording by saying I wish Amtrak did not get Gene Skoropowski, when in fact, I meant and still mean that I DO wish Amtrak got him. Joe Boardman can be VP or head conductor on the Sunset Limited; with Gene's leadership, the railroad would _probably_ be better.


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## RampWidget (Mar 23, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> I think the future of passenger trains will be corridor routes with day trains offering standard coach & first class service. I think existing overnight sleeping car trains will continue, but I think new LD trains and new sleeping cars provided will be limited. The new FEC plan mentioned first class service with luxury dining. I think this will be similar to Acela First class. The other thing to keep in mind is FEC is heavily non union. Flagler Holdings has significant real estate holdings along the east coast of Fl and elsewhere and is under the same ownership as the FEC Railroad.


To digress a bit, but as a point of information, FEC operating craft employees and yardmasters are represented by the United Transportation Union. They voted for UTU representation several years ago.


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## oldtimer (Mar 23, 2012)

RampWidget said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> > I think the future of passenger trains will be corridor routes with day trains offering standard coach & first class service. I think existing overnight sleeping car trains will continue, but I think new LD trains and new sleeping cars provided will be limited. The new FEC plan mentioned first class service with luxury dining. I think this will be similar to Acela First class. The other thing to keep in mind is FEC is heavily non union. Flagler Holdings has significant real estate holdings along the east coast of Fl and elsewhere and is under the same ownership as the FEC Railroad.
> ...


I have also been told that the shopcraft employees regardless of craft are represented by the IBEW.


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## railiner (Mar 24, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Unfortunately, the train can't really pull up close to the terminal.


They can in Philadelphia....SEPTA regional takes you right there.


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## AlanB (Mar 24, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Cmon, Gene Skoropowski's leaving California for Florida was as obvious as a ripe tomato on a salad plate, and though have mixed feelings on some of this, believe it will be good.


Gene left Amtrak California about 2 years ago or so. He's been working for a private company for the last couple of years.



NE933 said:


> I adore Amtrak and not it's gunked up leadership that's been as slow as u-know-what had it coming to them. Almost two years has lapsed since the special Viewliner and Amfleet II ran on FEC tracks, and Joe B. sat on it like a hen on an egg that never hatched.


The hold up here isn't Amtrak, its the State of Florida and a lack of stations. Amtrak could start this route tomorrow if the funding were in place and they had stations to drop people at. Ok, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, as they'd have to hire & train operating crews which would take a couple of months to get into place. But otherwise, they could start up tomorrow.



NE933 said:


> And what of the Sunset East/Panhandle/Jacksonville to New Orleans route that's been languishing?


Mr. Boardman didn't create that situation, he inherited it. And given the lack of direction from Congress regarding long distance trains, it's hardly surprising that he's not moved to fix it.



NE933 said:


> Amtrak is short of resources but the people who lead it must hear us demand that we want an answer!! Now!!


Mr. Boardman wants an answer too! He wants to know if Congress intends to continue to fund the long distance trains. If/when he gets that answer, you'll get yours.



NE933 said:


> I just wish that Amtrak didn't snatch up Gene S. for CEO; God, we would've been running full trains to alot more places by now more often by now, I'm certain.


Amtrak didn't snatch up Gene Skoropowski; the FEC did. And while Mr. S might well be able to make some improvements in things at Amtrak if he were to become President, even Gene would still have some of the problems you've noted thanks to Congressional inaction.


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## Anderson (Mar 24, 2012)

dlagrua said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > dlagrua said:
> ...


That was the Silver Palm in the 1990s, yes. I don't recall what ran on that route pre-1990s, though.


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## railiner (Mar 24, 2012)

Anderson said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


The Silver Palm was a short distance train that ran only between Tampa and Miami.

The Silver Meteor used to run via Ocala on its way from Jacksonville to Miami. I don't know offhand when it switched to the Silver Star route south of Jacksonville...


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## PRR 60 (Mar 24, 2012)

railiner said:


> The Silver Palm was a short distance train that ran only between Tampa and Miami.
> 
> The Silver Meteor used to run via Ocala on its way from Jacksonville to Miami. I don't know offhand when it switched to the Silver Star route south of Jacksonville...


Amtrak has used the name Silver Palm twice. The first one, in the 1980's. was the Miami - Tampa train you describe. The second incarnation was a third NYP-MIA frequency. It was basically an extension of the Palmetto from JAX to MIA.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 24, 2012)

From _Trains Newswire_, March 23, 2012:



> Even if 40 miles of new track are not built by 2014, a new privately-run passenger service in Florida may run anyway, the head of passenger rail development for Florida East Coast Industries tells Trains News Wire.
> Eugene Skoropowski, who was named senior vice president of passenger rail development earlier this month, said the railroad would run on the existing FEC from Miami to Cocoa, and until the new extension was completed, it could offer connecting service at Cocoa to Orlando. Skoropowski said that while months of studies remain, the company envisions operating trains on one-hour headways. He told Trains columnist Fred Frailey that the existing FEC would need to be double-tracked for the service. “The FEC once was double track, and all the sub-ballast and the bridges are still there,” Skoropowski said.
> 
> Skoropowski, well known in the railroad industry for his successful management of California’s Capitol Corridor passenger service, said he looks at the new service as “Capitol Corridor East” but with a much bigger market. He said FEC has been studying the service and went public because it has reached the point where engineering work and ridership surveys need to begin. The difference with this proposal, he said, is that this is an existing railroad that already owns 200 miles of track.


The full _Newswire_ item is HERE.


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## Ocala Mike (Mar 24, 2012)

railiner said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > dlagrua said:
> ...


That would have been late 2004, when Ocala saw its last steel wheels service.

Ocala Mike


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## VentureForth (Mar 24, 2012)

Oooh... I wonder if they'd consider Bombardier's  Jet Train !


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## jis (Mar 24, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Oooh... I wonder if they'd consider Bombardier's  Jet Train !


They'd have to be out of their flippin' minds ....


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## NE933 (Mar 24, 2012)

AlanB said:


> And while Mr. S might well be able to make some improvements in things at Amtrak if he were to become President, even Gene would still have some of the problems you've noted thanks to Congressional inaction.


Hmmmmm, I'll ponder that awhile. Probably a long while...

;-)


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## NE933 (Mar 24, 2012)

AlanB said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > I just wish that Amtrak didn't snatch up Gene S. for CEO; God, we would've been running full trains to alot more places by now more often by now, I'm certain.
> ...


Oh my what a mistake I made. I meant to say that I wish Amtrak DID snatch up Gene. Will correct with edit right away.


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## NE933 (Mar 24, 2012)

Ocala Mike said:


> That would have been late 2004, when Ocala saw its last steel wheels service.
> 
> Ocala Mike


Ouch, and how I wish that never happened; the Silver Palm was so right for NY - MIA, in name and routing. Scheduling was pretty decent too.

Maybe somebody out of their minds (paying homage to the Jet Train suggestion), other than myself.. can have the baseballs to figure a way to get it back. Hey, if terrible things can happen in the world that we'd never dream of, why can't the joyful things have the same weight and status?!


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## jis (Mar 24, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Oh my what a mistake I made. I meant to say that I wish Amtrak DID snatch up Gene. Will correct with edit right away.


Gene had pretty much said that he had no intention to go to Amtrak HQ after he left Amtrak California. So it is not like Amtrak could just snatch him even if they wanted.


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## Anderson (Mar 25, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Ocala Mike said:
> 
> 
> > That would have been late 2004, when Ocala saw its last steel wheels service.
> ...


I don't think we're going to get a train via the S-line back anytime soon. With that said, what I _could_ see happening at some point (pending availability of equipment and funding) is a third train via the A-line and/or FEC on a different schedule (i.e. timed for an early arrival into Miami and Orlando).


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## railiner (Mar 25, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > The Silver Palm was a short distance train that ran only between Tampa and Miami.
> ...


Thanks for the correction on the second Silver Palm....I had forgotten about that one.

And I suppose CSX deemed the route thru Ocala redundant and abandoned or downgraded it? The thing I remember about Waldo was its national infamy as a "speed trap" for motorists on the highway thru it.


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## NE933 (Mar 25, 2012)

jis said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh my what a mistake I made. I meant to say that I wish Amtrak DID snatch up Gene. Will correct with edit right away.
> ...


Maybe. Of course this is just speculative, but if the culture were more embracing than constipative, and perhaps an enhanced compensation palate for the man tied to an almost spiritual bond to a ressurecting vision and borderline psychotic love for the railroad, maybe he would have picked 60 Massachusetts Ave to floor the legs of his chair. Or not.


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## MattW (Mar 25, 2012)

railiner said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


Just the opposite actually. Since Florida bought the A-line through Orlando, CSX will be upgrading the S-line through Ocala and routing more freight over it.

[EDIT]Thanks for the clarification Alan!


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## AlanB (Mar 25, 2012)

MattW said:


> Just the opposite actually. Since Florida bought the S-line through Orlando, CSX will be upgrading the A-line through Ocala and routing more freight over it.


Minor correction, Florida brought the A-line which runs through Orlando. CSX has increased freight traffic on the S-line which runs through Ocala.


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## MattW (Mar 25, 2012)

AlanB said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > Just the opposite actually. Since Florida bought the S-line through Orlando, CSX will be upgrading the A-line through Ocala and routing more freight over it.
> ...


Yep, my mistake, I always get the two mixed up. Must be the S in Sunrail throwing me :blush:


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## NE933 (Mar 25, 2012)

It would be very nice to have a Siver Palm run on the S thru Ocala, stop at Tampa for 30 min. or so, fly to Orlando on the new track A. A. Fla proposes building, then zip down Miami. Play hardball with CSX in getting them to agree use of the S line by offering a few slots for its freights on the new tracks, including Amtrak handing the grail Tropicana express on the Corridor at night, then pull a "godfather" by threatening to block it if they don't play nicely. "Nicely", of course, being a term to be liberally defined by us at our discression. Let's leverage the power of this development by proposing, and deliveing, the expedient on time arrival of the trains so that interconnectng railroads like CSX gets the predictability it needs in exchange for some quid pro quo.


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## NE933 (Mar 25, 2012)

All this a result of history. It's God's fault. People live in Centra Florida, as well as West coast/Gulf, East coast/Atlantic, and the lovely South Miami/Everglades. They need both freight and passenger carrying trains. There's room for all at the contract table, and pouting past errors of ripping out trackage and wrecking ball old stations is fruitless. There`s money, its just more tight, to restoring a 2nd track, upgrading rails, ties, and ballast for consistant 70mph freight/100+ mph running for passenger trains, decent PTC signallng, rolling stock well suited for the purpose. We've got new Viewliners coming for the long distance, existing Amfleet for near term higher speed, and brains - sort of. As with most of the world's problems, the cause and enabling continuance of them is a lack of brains. Get the powers of the mind working, and any problem, be it low Amtrak funding, mental illness, diabetes, pollution, can be resolved in time. Money is everywhere, it's even up our asses. Smarts, on the other hand, is in terrible short supply.

Signed, NE933

P.S. regarding money up our asses. We, the people of the United(?) States, spent billions this year already on cosmetic procdures to make the butt rounder, plumper, less hair/more hair/blonder hair for boh cheeks, pigmentation and tanning enhancements, etc., to visually enhance the attractiveness of the posterior. Yes, billions. I wonder if some of these folks give as much attention to detecting colon cancer. How sad.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 25, 2012)

NE933 said:


> It would be very nice to have a Siver Palm run on the S thru Ocala, stop at Tampa for 30 min. or so, fly to Orlando on the new track A. A. Fla proposes building, then zip down Miami. Play hardball with CSX in getting them to agree use of the S line by offering a few slots for its freights on the new tracks, including Amtrak handing the grail Tropicana express on the Corridor at night, then pull a "godfather" by threatening to block it if they don't play nicely. "Nicely", of course, being a term to be liberally defined by us at our discression. Let's leverage the power of this development by proposing, and deliveing, the expedient on time arrival of the trains so that interconnectng railroads like CSX gets the predictability it needs in exchange for some quid pro quo.


Even after tracks are possibly built from Orlando to Cocoa, it makes SO LITTLE sense to run a train JAX-Tampa-Orlando-Miami. That is NOT the routing a train wants to take.


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## VentureForth (Mar 26, 2012)

Besides, Amtrak is already doing that. Interestingly, this FEC proposal seems like a direct competition with Amtrak for the MIA-ORL market. Obviously there is a need for the MIA-COCO line, but would the times and cost be competitive to go all the way into Orlando?

I hope the Jax extension happens sooner rather than later...


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## NE933 (Mar 26, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Even after tracks are possibly built from Orlando to Cocoa, it makes SO LITTLE sense to run a train JAX-Tampa-Orlando-Miami. That is NOT the routing a train wants to take.


Yes, it doesn't make much sense; besides, that's similar to what we have now with the Silver Star. I'd have to go back to some older Amtrak maps; wasn't there a way to get onto the S line in Florida without using JAX? Or maybe, operate this baby as a corridor type thingy and keep the long distance Silver trains more or less the way they are. Even though, it's nice to have options.


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## RampWidget (Mar 26, 2012)

NE933 said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > Even after tracks are possibly built from Orlando to Cocoa, it makes SO LITTLE sense to run a train JAX-Tampa-Orlando-Miami. That is NOT the routing a train wants to take.
> ...


Your memory is correct. Trains enroute the S-Line can bypass Jacksonville via CSX's Callahan Subdivision between Callahan, Fla. (on the A-Line)and Baldwin, Fla. (where the Wildwood Subdivision begins.)


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## bretton88 (Mar 26, 2012)

Gene is definitely a sharp tack. He would not get on this plan if he didn't think it wasn't going to become a reality. And raising 1 billion in capital for these 2 investors (Fortress and FECI) wont be a problem.


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## jphjaxfl (Mar 26, 2012)

There is a huge amount of tourist traffic between south Florida and Orlando. Many from overseas fly into MIA where they spend most of their vacations. Many want to visit the Orlando attractions for a few days and want to travel by train. I have had numerous friends from Europe and other countries who have asked me why there is only one train from Miami to Orlando. (The Silver Star really isn't.practical ).


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## NE933 (Mar 26, 2012)

Just for the record, about my remarks concerning opinion about Joe Boardman: I don't hate the man, nor wish him harm (God knows we have too much of that stuff on our planet already, without someone on here adding to the fires of hatred). I would like to believe he has the best for Amtrak in mind when he makes decisions, and that he contemplates the health of our passenger railroad deeply when mulling over courses of action. He is human, like me, like all of us, and will make mistakes, hopefully not major ones, and will try to fix those mistakes as well as those made by others, before they erode into Amtrak's health, and the health of all other railroads and even non-rail operations. Transportation, Health, Civil Rights, are worthy of great debates because of what's at stake; we don't have to kill one another to come to a solution. Like any contentious but peace loving family, we on Amtrak Unlimited, and the ranks of Amtrak management, craft, and staff, will pull each other's hair but in the end all of us are meant to sit down in a civil form to celebrate what we do right, and correct what we don't. Mr. Boardman is and should be rightfully credited with doing many beneficial things for Amtrak in his two or three years, such as placing the largest electric locomotive order ever since the GG1 fleet, and for resurrecting the Viewliner building. A 1995/6 Trains Magazine article wept on that the 50 View sleepers might well be the only ones ever made. Under Mr. Boardman's leadership, he and all of us said 'no way' to that, and dared to do something different: get a new assembly line put together and let's do this. Same for the recent strides in midwestern 110mph speed increases and the Chicago/CREATE flyovers.

But Mr. Boardman, you can easily do the difficult and the impossible, or at least get some of it started, with things like deciding something affirmative on the Sunset Limited East thing (I am backed up by NARP on this, which calls this a failure on Amtrak's part) and procuring more Viewliners, getting started on a Superliner III project, and the next generation of single level (fondly referred to as Amfleet 3's). As Alan has pointed out very appropriately, that the reason for inaction at 60 Massachusetts is the inaction in Congress. What a world we inhabit.


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## jis (Mar 26, 2012)

NE933 said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > Even after tracks are possibly built from Orlando to Cocoa, it makes SO LITTLE sense to run a train JAX-Tampa-Orlando-Miami. That is NOT the routing a train wants to take.
> ...


I doubt that anyone has even mentioned (other than maybe here) moving any Silver service to travel over the new Orlando - Cocoa-Rockledge section. Miami - Cocoa-Rockledge - Orlando will be a hourly corridor service running at upto 125mph. The Silver Service split at JAX to run part of it down FEC is not affected by any of this (or so I am hearing from folks who know way more than this than I do). I doubt that there will be any passenger service via Ocala unless someone comes up with enough money to lay an additional track along the CSX RoW and CSX agrees.

Having said that, running a Tampa - Orlando - Miami service via Cocoa-Rockledge will hit way many more populations centers than running it via Winter Haven - Sebring - Okechobee.


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## RampWidget (Mar 26, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> There is a huge amount of tourist traffic between south Florida and Orlando. Many from overseas fly into MIA where they spend most of their vacations. Many want to visit the Orlando attractions for a few days and want to travel by train. I have had numerous friends from Europe and other countries who have asked me why there is only one train from Miami to Orlando. (The Silver Star really isn't.practical ).


Very true... and not to be overlooked is the volume of tourist traffic inbound directly to Orlando itself. Just using the London-Orlando market as an example, there are three non-stop flights daily (more seasonally) between London-Gatwick and Orlando via British Airways (1 B-777) & Virgin Atlantic (1 B-747, 1 A-330) . No reason why these visitors wouldn't also want to your excellent example in the opposite direction and take a (practical) train trip to WPB/FTL/MIA.


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## afigg (Mar 26, 2012)

What may happen in terms of passenger service on the FEC took another step today. Saw the headline on the Trains magazine website, but the story there is only available to subscribers. So I found a Daytona Beach newspaper story that the Florida Legislature passed the bill setting the insurance liability issues that had been a roadblock for state supported Amtrak service over the FEC and Tri-Rail from Jacksonville to Miami.

The story focuses on what FL DOT can achieve with the $118 million they have allocated such as 80 mph service, not 90 mph, maybe one round trip train a day, not two. Not clear if that would be a state supported corridor service or a Silver Star split at JAX. Does not mention the FEC recent announcement of plans for a Miami to Cocoa to Orlando corridor service. There are now multiple players with different interests: Amtrak, the state DOT, the towns that want train service on the entire MIA-JAX corridor, and FEC which is proposing to spend a $1 billion in private financing. Does the FEC agree to Amtrak and state supported 1-2 trains a day service to JAX while setting up their own Miami to Cocoa then eventually to Orlando high frequency service? While the FEC is really in the drivers seat, they will need extensive state cooperation to build tracks to Orlando (then to Tampa over what is presumably the former HSR ROW). Will the FEC proposal for a privately funded corridor service result in severely undercutting the FL DOT and Amtrak plans for a JAX to Miami service?


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## RampWidget (Mar 28, 2012)

afigg said:


> What may happen in terms of passenger service on the FEC took another step today. Saw the headline on the Trains magazine website, but the story there is only available to subscribers. So I found a Daytona Beach newspaper story that the Florida Legislature passed the bill setting the insurance liability issues that had been a roadblock for state supported Amtrak service over the FEC and Tri-Rail from Jacksonville to Miami.
> 
> The story focuses on what FL DOT can achieve with the $118 million they have allocated such as 80 mph service, not 90 mph, maybe one round trip train a day, not two. Not clear if that would be a state supported corridor service or a Silver Star split at JAX. Does not mention the FEC recent announcement of plans for a Miami to Cocoa to Orlando corridor service. There are now multiple players with different interests: Amtrak, the state DOT, the towns that want train service on the entire MIA-JAX corridor, and FEC which is proposing to spend a $1 billion in private financing. Does the FEC agree to Amtrak and state supported 1-2 trains a day service to JAX while setting up their own Miami to Cocoa then eventually to Orlando high frequency service? While the FEC is really in the drivers seat, they will need extensive state cooperation to build tracks to Orlando (then to Tampa over what is presumably the former HSR ROW). Will the FEC proposal for a privately funded corridor service result in severely undercutting the FL DOT and Amtrak plans for a JAX to Miami service?


One other thing that has no doubt appealed to the FEC's strategic planners is the already underway construction project to restore the FEC's direct rail link to the Port of Miami.

While the obvious intent of this is to be able to move intermodal trains directly on and off the port and keep a significant portion of truck traffic off of downtown Miami streets, bear in mind that the Port of Miami is actually located in Biscayne Bay on Dodge Island... on which both cargo and passenger vessels call.

Right there is a golden opportunity to move cruise ship pax to and from ships, possibly in private railcars owned by the cruise lines, similar to their operations in conjunction with the Alaska RR for cruise pax there.

The Port of Miami is the busiest cruise ship port in the world, and then add having nearby Port Everglades & Port Canaveral also having access to on-dock or near-dock passenger rail could represent considerable business potential.


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## Anderson (Mar 28, 2012)

Remind me...how far is the Ft. Lauderdale station (and/or the FEC line) from the cruise ports there?

What this does raise is some interesting possibilities, such as cruises being able to add on a "Disney adder" on one end of a cruise as part of a package...or, indeed, Disney being able to do run some operations that include a rail transfer to/from the ships.


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## rrdude (Mar 28, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Remind me...how far is the Ft. Lauderdale station (and/or the FEC line) from the cruise ports there?
> 
> What this does raise is some interesting possibilities, such as cruises being able to add on a "Disney adder" on one end of a cruise as part of a package...or, indeed, Disney being able to do run some operations that include a rail transfer to/from the ships.


It's a "hike", and I mean you DON'T/CAN'T walk it. They would need some dedicated shuttle busses for such an operation.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 28, 2012)

afigg said:


> What may happen in terms of passenger service on the FEC took another step today. Saw the headline on the Trains magazine website, but the story there is only available to subscribers. So I found a Daytona Beach newspaper story that the Florida Legislature passed the bill setting the insurance liability issues that had been a roadblock for state supported Amtrak service over the FEC and Tri-Rail from Jacksonville to Miami.
> 
> The story focuses on what FL DOT can achieve with the $118 million they have allocated such as 80 mph service, not 90 mph, maybe one round trip train a day, not two. Not clear if that would be a state supported corridor service or a Silver Star split at JAX. Does not mention the FEC recent announcement of plans for a Miami to Cocoa to Orlando corridor service. There are now multiple players with different interests: Amtrak, the state DOT, the towns that want train service on the entire MIA-JAX corridor, and FEC which is proposing to spend a $1 billion in private financing. Does the FEC agree to Amtrak and state supported 1-2 trains a day service to JAX while setting up their own Miami to Cocoa then eventually to Orlando high frequency service? While the FEC is really in the drivers seat, they will need extensive state cooperation to build tracks to Orlando (then to Tampa over what is presumably the former HSR ROW). Will the FEC proposal for a privately funded corridor service result in severely undercutting the FL DOT and Amtrak plans for a JAX to Miami service?


There's no reason both services can't operate. FEC's own plan calls for service to Jacksonville "in the future" with no timetable for implementation. It may never get around to it. Running an Amtrak train on the route would have no affect on FEC's own plans. In fact it would add to it. All this conspiracy nonsense that the FEC is doing this to keep Amtrak off it routes is just that nonsense. FEC has cooperated all along with the state and Amtrak. Running one through Amtrak train is a no brainer.


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## cirdan (Mar 28, 2012)

Do they really want to commence operations in 2014? If so they had better start procuring rolling stock pretty soon as lead times are long, especially if they want something custom designed. Same with engineering work, real estate etc. The schedule seems blindly optimistic to me.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 28, 2012)

cirdan said:


> Do they really want to commence operations in 2014? If so they had better start procuring rolling stock pretty soon as lead times are long, especially if they want something custom designed. Same with engineering work, real estate etc. The schedule seems blindly optimistic to me.


Lead times are long if they plan to buy new equipment. I think it's entirely possible that they plan to buy used equipment. Perhaps _we're_ the blindly optimistic folks assuming new service automatically equals new hardware.


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## John Bredin (Mar 28, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> A state subsidy, CMAQ funds and even use of the Beeline Expressway right of way would be all be at odds at their "no government funding" promise.


Agree with the first two but not the last. Donating something of limited value to the State -- except for highway expansion, which *would* require spending actual tax dollars -- doesn't require spending a single cent from the state treasury of Florida (or the U.S. Treasury) and isn't an ongoing or repeated commitment. In short, it isn't funding because it isn't funds.

Moreover, their promise wasn't or isn't "no government funding" although that *is* likely how they want people to hear & remember it. On their website, they claim "no risk to Florida's taxpayers," and "Florida’s taxpayers will have no ongoing construction or operating risks."** A State subsidy would be contrary to that, of course, but federal CMAQ funds wouldn't be, nor would a one-time Federal grant for construction if it had no State match requirement. <_< And, as stated above, donating the expressway ROW isn't a "risk" to taxpayers. When they get into more detail, they say:



> •The majority of the approximately $1 billion construction cost would be privately funded•200 miles of rail infrastructure and Right of Way (ROW) for the 240-mile route are already privately owned and in place to complete the project in 2014
> 
> •The State and taxpayers shoulder zero operating risk – this privately owned rail system will be 100% privately operated and maintained


Note the "majority" in the first point -- not ruling out *some* gov't funding for construction -- and the "State and taxpayers shoulder zero operating risk" in the last point -- not ruling out Federal CMAQ funds for initial operations.

**I imagine this wording is to avoid the very pretext scenario under which Gov. Scott Walker rejected the HSR funds -- it would create an ongoing financial commitment for the State of unknown size and duration.


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## Ryan (Mar 28, 2012)

Yeah, I already pointed that out all the way back on Page 1.



Ryan said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > A state subsidy, CMAQ funds and even use of the Beeline Expressway right of way would be all be at odds at their "no government funding" promise.
> ...


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## NE933 (Mar 28, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Lead times are long if they plan to buy new equipment. I think it's entirely possible that they plan to buy used equipment.


How about using Amfleet cars? Either renting them from Amtrak or having the NRPC as the designated (though not yet named or confirmed) operator, they exist, and there are enough until new cars are built. Also, the use of "Jet Train" locomotive drew some laughs but so did the Viewliner Diner, until the right people were gathered up to make it work. Therefore, if some additional untouched P40's can be rolled out of the weeds at Bear, DE and use some of the money from the All Aboard Florida project to pay for their rehab, along with the rehab of remaining Amfleets and the Jet Train engine, there ya go! At least we've got something in the meantime.


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## Anderson (Mar 28, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > Lead times are long if they plan to buy new equipment. I think it's entirely possible that they plan to buy used equipment.
> ...


I'm going to wince as I say this, but...what about IL's hi-level stockpile?


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## Trogdor (Mar 28, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > Lead times are long if they plan to buy new equipment. I think it's entirely possible that they plan to buy used equipment.
> ...


1) All of Amtrak's Amfleet equipment is spoken for on existing or soon-to-start (i.e. Norfolk) service. There is no other equipment available, nor will there be any equipment available before 2014 to displace Amfleets to run in Florida.

2) When did the Viewliner Diner draw any laughs? Nobody thought the Viewliner Diner was a ridiculous concept, it was just poorly designed/laid out originally, and that, plus its nonstandard parts, relegated it to mothballs until recently. The Jet Train, on the other hand, is a design that from my understanding is less fuel efficient than the current generation locomotives out there. It would drive your costs pretty high.


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## AlanB (Mar 28, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > Lead times are long if they plan to buy new equipment. I think it's entirely possible that they plan to buy used equipment.
> ...


There aren't many Amfleets to return to service. Back in 2003, before Amtrak mothballed a bunch of AMF I's, there were 465 Amfleet I's on the active list. Today there are 459 active Amfleet I's, meaning that there are only 6 fewer cars in service today than back in 2003.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 28, 2012)

Anderson said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > Texas Sunset said:
> ...


Illinois does not have a stockpile of high level cars. There are hi-levels, still for sale, I believe, at a used passenger car dealer in the Illinois part of the St. Louis metropolitan area. The Illinois Department of Transportation took a look at the cars several years ago, but did not buy them. I don't know what speeds the cars are rated for, but the use of 60-year-old cars wouldn't be very impressive for folks expecting a new high speed operation.


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## Anderson (Mar 28, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > NE933 said:
> ...


Unless there are degradation issues, the cars _should_ have been designed for at least 90 MPH operation given their initial area of operation (the ATSF main line). The question of 100-110 MPH operation is, of course, an open one...but most of the talk now appears to be focused on 80-90 MPH speed maximums instead of 110/125 MPH, and adding 10-20 MPH to operations along a 20-40 mile segment of track (i.e. Orlando-Cocoa) would seem to have marginal benefits for the time being.

Of course, the other obvious options would be either for the FEC to simply "pitch in" on the bilevel order (assuming 8-10 sets, you'd be looking at somewhere between 32-60 cars getting added to the order), to buy off a batch of Horizons (given the choice, I'd prefer the Hi-Levels for a whole host of reasons), to buy Amfleets (Amtrak doesn't have spares lying around to sell, do they?), and to "buy something else" (either old or new).

As to the ownership, for some reason I thought that IL had bought them and then not managed to refurbish them. That's my bad; sorry 'bout that.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2012)

The Jet Train locomotive has never been certified for commercial operation at any speed. It was just a prototype demo unit.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 28, 2012)

What about the state supported services that are expected to lose federal funding? Are none of those likely to result in more coach cars being freed up?


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## AlanB (Mar 28, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> What about the state supported services that are expected to lose federal funding? Are none of those likely to result in more coach cars being freed up?


While of course nothing is ever set in stone when it comes to things like the above, at present it looks like only Indiana is unlikely to step up to the plate to continue the Hoosier State. There is also some doubt about the Pennsylvanian at present, but I suspect that PA will eventually step up and do the right thing.

All other state appear to be making the right noises that would lead one to believe that they will step into the funding void created by the new rules set down by Congress.

But even if both the Hoosier & the Pennsy went down, that's not going to free up too many cars. And I'm sure that Amtrak can find other uses for those cars anyhow, without needing to send them down to the FEC.


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## Gratt (Mar 28, 2012)

I think one person pointed out already that if these cars were paid for with private money then there are no "buy American" clauses attached. The only restrictions would come from the FRA, and even some of those could be waved.

So theoretically the cars could be bought in Europe or Asia, though again US safety guidelines would come into play, but that still gives the FEC a lot more flexibility as to where to purchase new equipment.


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## Anderson (Mar 28, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > What about the state supported services that are expected to lose federal funding? Are none of those likely to result in more coach cars being freed up?
> ...


On the one hand, I don't have ready access to PA's "noises"; on the other hand, I would be sort of surprised if they cut the Pennsylvanian, considering both its high ridership (for a once-daily corridor operation) and the fact that they were apparently seriously looking at adding a second daily frequency lately. Mind you, it seems _quite_ possible that there are going to be sour grapes over Amtrak not counting any PHL-NYP travel towards PA's credit...but I'm not sure that this would be enough to get the train canned.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2012)

Anderson said:


> On the one hand, I don't have ready access to PA's "noises"; on the other hand, I would be sort of surprised if they cut the Pennsylvanian, considering both its high ridership (for a once-daily corridor operation) and the fact that they were apparently seriously looking at adding a second daily frequency lately. Mind you, it seems _quite_ possible that there are going to be sour grapes over Amtrak not counting any PHL-NYP travel towards PA's credit...but I'm not sure that this would be enough to get the train canned.


PennDoT negotiating for some future possibilities with Amtrak and PA Legislature funding something this coming year or not are two completely different things and one of those heading in a positive direction while the other heads in a negative direction for the immediate future is not inconsistent with the way how these things often go down.

However, I really don't believe that PA won't come up with the money to continue running the Pennsylvanian. PA and Amtrak will most likely work out something. PA is not Indiana.

The biggest new state bills will be for California and New York, and both of those states appear to be completely ready to step up to the plate.

PHL - NYP runs do not count towards any credit for anybody. At that point it is a corridor train paid for by NEC and revenues accruing to NEC. Just like VA does not get credit for running Regionals between WAS and NYP. That is not how Section 209 is written and how it is being interpreted by the STB.


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## Anderson (Mar 28, 2012)

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > On the one hand, I don't have ready access to PA's "noises"; on the other hand, I would be sort of surprised if they cut the Pennsylvanian, considering both its high ridership (for a once-daily corridor operation) and the fact that they were apparently seriously looking at adding a second daily frequency lately. Mind you, it seems _quite_ possible that there are going to be sour grapes over Amtrak not counting any PHL-NYP travel towards PA's credit...but I'm not sure that this would be enough to get the train canned.
> ...


They did prior to Section 209 (at least for Virginia, hence the messy recalculations), and I could easily see the state having sour grapes over it.

IN is...well, IN has had the Hoosier State more by accident than anything, and I honestly don't think they care if it stays or goes. To be fair, the timings and speeds on it are lousy enough that I can't blame them for not wanting to pick up the tab for such a service.


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## TVRM610 (Mar 28, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> I don't know what speeds the cars are rated for, but the use of 60-year-old cars wouldn't be very impressive for folks expecting a new high speed operation.


I do not understand this statement... who cares how old the cars are as long as they look nice and they run smooth / safely? The NCDOT cars are 60 years old, but they look brand new. Obviously the cars would be refurbished to look like new.


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## bretton88 (Mar 28, 2012)

TVRM610 said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know what speeds the cars are rated for, but the use of 60-year-old cars wouldn't be very impressive for folks expecting a new high speed operation.
> ...


If they can be rated for 110mph operation, they would work really well. Just need a major overhaul, like new interior colors and furnishing. They certainly have good, high capacity too. Now, a few would have to have a complete renovation to become the promised bistros. But they could work well. The only thing is that single level cars are considered to be "sexier" and thus more attractive.


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## Nickrapak (Mar 28, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Lead times are long if they plan to buy new equipment. I think it's entirely possible that they plan to buy used equipment. Perhaps _we're_ the blindly optimistic folks assuming new service automatically equals new hardware.


What about the only high-speed non-electric trainsets in this country today...The Turboliners!

<cue maniacal laughter>


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## rrdude (Mar 28, 2012)

bretton88 said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


Totally disagree, in fact IMHO, the "sexiest" rail cars on the planet are the double-deck HSR cars.


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## Trogdor (Mar 28, 2012)

I know it's probably been mentioned already, but there are two almost-completed trainsets in a warehouse in Milwaukee looking for a home. All they need is about $10 million/year in maintenance upkeep.


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## Anderson (Mar 28, 2012)

bretton88 said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


My feeling is that it's trainsets that a fascination (that I can _not_ understand because of equipment inflexibility) has built around.

And at least in Amtrak's plan, the corridor cars _were_ to be bilevels (though obviously the Silvers would remain single level due to operating up north).

As to the Talgos, the biggest problems that I see are:

1) There's no ready way to expand the equipment in use, since Talgo is shutting its production facility down;

2) Two sets isn't going to be enough for the advertised service, which I _believe_ mentions hourly service. That implies 6-10 sets of equipment (6 if you're willing to have a periodic gap in service; 10 if you want to avoid that _and_ you account for needing 20% of the equipment as spares...though this _might_ be kept down slightly if all of the inspections and whatnot take place in Florida); and

3) IIRC, there's no real advantage to using the Talgos in FL given the relatively straight tracks.

As to the Hi-Levels: I'm certain that they are capable of 90 MPH. Whether they can do 110 MPH is a question mark, of course, but you have a _lot_ of PVs from the same era that are rated for 110 MPH...to say nothing of Amtrak's Heritage equipment of the same general vintage.

To be honest, if I was the FEC and I _really_ wanted to make 2014 for a startup that needed 8-10 sets, I'd grab the Hi-Levels while placing an order for equipment that would (more or less) match up in appearance. I'd make sure that the cafe/bistros were at the "front of the line" for delivery (to fill the gap in the existing equipment; basically, whomever was delivering the equipment would be told to build the cafes first and the coaches second), and I'd order about 8-10 trains' worth of equipment. Eventually (I'm assuming 4-6 years for delivering the whole order), I would phase the Hi-Levels out of regular service (though still using them as the protect sets, for "surge" equipment when the seasons demanded it, and/or to enable a relatively quick startup of new service to Tampa and/or Jacksonville should that time come). Even if I couldn't get the full hourly service running with the extant equipment, I'd have enough to run reasonably frequent service right out of the gate, with a planned stepping-up of service a year or two down the road.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 28, 2012)

With no federal money involved, FEC does not have to be constrained by "Buy USA" requirements. As long as they can get equipment designed or modified to meet FRA requirement, they can go offshore.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 28, 2012)

RampWidget said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > What may happen in terms of passenger service on the FEC took another step today. Saw the headline on the Trains magazine website, but the story there is only available to subscribers. So I found a Daytona Beach newspaper story that the Florida Legislature passed the bill setting the insurance liability issues that had been a roadblock for state supported Amtrak service over the FEC and Tri-Rail from Jacksonville to Miami.
> ...





Anderson said:


> Remind me...how far is the Ft. Lauderdale station (and/or the FEC line) from the cruise ports there?
> 
> What this does raise is some interesting possibilities, such as cruises being able to add on a "Disney adder" on one end of a cruise as part of a package...or, indeed, Disney being able to do run some operations that include a rail transfer to/from the ships.


While I do think that adding cars and using them to ferry post-cruise pax to the Orlando area, Disney itself will not do that. Disney ships in the Caribbean only leave from Port Canaveral, so Disney may arrange a shuttle from there, but there would not be any major Disney charters. I love that the FEC line does go right into the ports though, and while still not a good walk from Port Everglades, it is a lot closer there, if there is a well-located station. I actually find Anderson's suggestion of the Hi-Levels a fantastic idea. I was very skeptical when this was first mentioned because I did not believe that there were really 70 of them (I'm figuring 7 car trains if they want to make a profit). After nobody else saying this though, I think that they could work out very well for the FEC though. Overall, I am excited to see where this project will go.


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## Anderson (Mar 29, 2012)

Johnny,

I think there are only 35-40 coaches, but I could be wrong. However, let's not forget that cars can be switched around, and that the Florida market is likely to be _far_ more seasonal than rail traffic at large. The pattern will generally be the same (high in the summer and at the holidays, low in spring/fall), but the ups and downs will be higher given how tourist-heavy the route is likely to be. So while the Hi-Levels aren't _the_ answer, they are a part of an answer, and one that would give the FEC a startup fleet more quickly and a surge fleet/backup fleet/expansion fleet more affordably. The FEC is going to need to order at least _some_ new equipment, but it's a matter of how much and how quickly they can put it together. One point worth noting: I _think_ the IP surrounding the Hi-Levels is fair game by this point, given that the last one was built over half a century ago...so simply ordering slightly modified versions of them (i.e. adjusted to have on-board Wi-Fi and comply with the ADA) wouldn't necessarily be a hard thing to do.

Though they're not necessarily going to be tied up with ordering equipment in the US, who could they go to overseas that:

A) Is used to making stuff to FRA specs; and

B) Wouldn't run into issues with shipping the cars?

The latter...I'm not sure how much shipping a bunch of railcars would add, but it _can't_ be cheap to try and move that much equipment by boat.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 29, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Johnny,
> 
> I think there are only 35-40 coaches, but I could be wrong. However, let's not forget that cars can be switched around, and that the Florida market is likely to be _far_ more seasonal than rail traffic at large. The pattern will generally be the same (high in the summer and at the holidays, low in spring/fall), but the ups and downs will be higher given how tourist-heavy the route is likely to be. So while the Hi-Levels aren't _the_ answer, they are a part of an answer, and one that would give the FEC a startup fleet more quickly and a surge fleet/backup fleet/expansion fleet more affordably. The FEC is going to need to order at least _some_ new equipment, but it's a matter of how much and how quickly they can put it together. One point worth noting: I _think_ the IP surrounding the Hi-Levels is fair game by this point, given that the last one was built over half a century ago...so simply ordering slightly modified versions of them (i.e. adjusted to have on-board Wi-Fi and comply with the ADA) wouldn't necessarily be a hard thing to do.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that response, Anderson. While 40 is not the 70 they would probably like, it would definitely do. It could provide probably provide 90 minute frequencies at best, which for people not spoiled by having the PacSurf a half mile from your house running hourly, is fantastic. I actually disagree about the peak season for the Florida market though. I know that Miami gets 3x as many cruise ships per day in the winter than in the summer, and Port Everglades gets about 1 1/2x that of the summer. Since this discussion has revolved so heavily around the u]possible use by cruise ship pax, then I think that surge capacity would be greater in the winter. Nobody wants to spend all day at Disney World anyways when it's 100 degrees out and muggy anyways, so I assume most Orlando-bound tourist traffic would in fact be in the winter.


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## SM Nelson (Mar 29, 2012)

I hold some FEC bonds. They are rated B3, or junk, and pay a really nice interest rate (8.125%) and are secured paper. They are junk because RR's do not generate large amounts of cash, especially FEC, and their assets are in difficult to convert real estate. The bonds represent virtually the entire debt of the RR, $475 million and mature in 2017. The RR is profitable but not by much, especially considering the debt service $$ every six months. Any funding of passenger trains and new lines will require all outside money. Should the RR incur any debt itself I do not believe they could pay it because the current bond issue is secured and any other paper would be subordinate and carry a prohibitive interest rate if anyone would buy the paper at all. I suspect a new corporation would have to be created to run the service and to issue debt paper. FEC as currently structured cannot issue any debt paper without retiring the current bond issue and there is little money to do that. Stay tuned.


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## Rob_C (Mar 29, 2012)

> Totally disagree, in fact IMHO, the "sexiest" rail cars on the planet are the double-deck HSR cars.


Amen!! On that note, just finished the Northeast Regional double-deck HSR set model, maybe it is time to do one in FEC livery??

Video on youtube: http://youtu.be/OZ8Kf_tpodo


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## jis (Mar 29, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> With no federal money involved, FEC does not have to be constrained by "Buy USA" requirements. As long as they can get equipment designed or modified to meet FRA requirement, they can go offshore.


That is correct. For example, the NJ Transit ALP-46s, 46as and PL42s were manufactured in Germany and Poland. They were funded entirely from New Jersey funds hence no "Buy USA" requirement on them.


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## jis (Mar 29, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Unless there are degradation issues, the cars _should_ have been designed for at least 90 MPH operation given their initial area of operation (the ATSF main line). The question of 100-110 MPH operation is, of course, an open one...but most of the talk now appears to be focused on 80-90 MPH speed maximums instead of 110/125 MPH, and adding 10-20 MPH to operations along a 20-40 mile segment of track (i.e. Orlando-Cocoa) would seem to have marginal benefits for the time being.


Methinks you grossly under-estimate the amount of 100+ speed that is being contemplated. Actually the proportion of 100+ running proposed will probably be higher for this than say between Boston and New York on the NEC.

The plan as stated is 90mph from Miami to West Palm, that is all of about 65 miles or so.

Then 110mph from West Palm to Cocoa which is about 130 miles.

And finally Cocoa to Orlando 125 mph over a distance of about 55 miles or so.

So only about a quarter of the total distance is targeted form 90mph MAS. The rest is 100+, mostly 110mph. Of course there will be some PSRs at curves etc. But the general prevailing MAS is planned to be as stated above.

That said, I am skeptical that they will start the entire service in 2014. They will probably get a lower speed initial segment upto Cocoa in place by 2014 if that. I am skeptical about that too.



Anderson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > PHL - NYP runs do not count towards any credit for anybody. At that point it is a corridor train paid for by NEC and revenues accruing to NEC. Just like VA does not get credit for running Regionals between WAS and NYP. That is not how Section 209 is written and how it is being interpreted by the STB.
> ...


That was a one off deal that Amtrak had with Virginia. That has nothing to do with what the Section 209 rules as stated by FRA are. Any future operations will be based on the new rules, not the rules that Amtrak had in the past with some state or the other.



> IN is...well, IN has had the Hoosier State more by accident than anything, and I honestly don't think they care if it stays or goes. To be fair, the timings and speeds on it are lousy enough that I can't blame them for not wanting to pick up the tab for such a service.


Indiana has refused to participate in any state funded trains under Section 209. So it is not just Hoosier State that is in question, though effectively that is the only one currently affected. It has nothing to do with Hoosier State's schedule or any such. Even if it ran at 200mph IN would not chip in, or that is essentially what they have said in effect.

I guess their position is something like "We might fund something that provides connectivity from the extreme NW corner to Chicago, but even that we will do under some special deal, not the Section 209 rules, since it will not involve Amtrak".

And speaking of using ATSF Hi-Levels I think is viable only if used for limited time, though at great cost to refurbish them and make them 110 capable, if it can be done at all. Afterall you won't just take things that have been in storage for 20 years expect them to just run fine off the shelf. For long term use it is a pretty bad idea. They will be expensive to maintain, and the intended use is much more intensive and punishing with frequent start stop and quick acceleration and deceleration than the sedate life that they lived before.


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## cirdan (Mar 29, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Unless there are degradation issues, the cars _should_ have been designed for at least 90 MPH operation given their initial area of operation (the ATSF main line). The question of 100-110 MPH operation is, of course, an open one...but most of the talk now appears to be focused on 80-90 MPH speed maximums instead of 110/125 MPH, and adding 10-20 MPH to operations along a 20-40 mile segment of track (i.e. Orlando-Cocoa) would seem to have marginal benefits for the time being.


Isn't top speed ultimately a question of the bogie design? So all it would take to upgrade a 90mph car to 110mph would be a new set of bogies, or possibly even some design adjustments to the existing ones (brake performance, suspension and the like).

Even if the cars themselves are expected to have a limited lifespan, new bogies would not be lost as they could be re-used under the next generation of cars.


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## jis (Mar 29, 2012)

cirdan said:


> Isn't top speed ultimately a question of the bogie design? So all it would take to upgrade a 90mph car to 110mph would be a new set of bogies, or possibly even some design adjustments to the existing ones (brake performance, suspension and the like).


It is a bit more than just bogie design. The entire package has to be dynamically stable under the conditions that it is to be operated regularly.

It is possible that they could discover some oscillation problems at the higher speeds. There is always a chance that running at a higher speed would excite some natural frequency of the body that has never been tested for such, which would require additional engineering work sticking in larger dampers etc. Can't tell for sure until it is tried. Heck even in brand new trains such happens. Remember the Acela Yaw Damper Bracket problems?


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## Anderson (Mar 29, 2012)

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Unless there are degradation issues, the cars _should_ have been designed for at least 90 MPH operation given their initial area of operation (the ATSF main line). The question of 100-110 MPH operation is, of course, an open one...but most of the talk now appears to be focused on 80-90 MPH speed maximums instead of 110/125 MPH, and adding 10-20 MPH to operations along a 20-40 mile segment of track (i.e. Orlando-Cocoa) would seem to have marginal benefits for the time being.
> ...


You're right insofar as that wasn't my understanding, at least for the initial service. I was under the impression that even getting things up from 80 MPH to 90 MPH wasn't necessarily in the plan. However, it seems entirely possible that such could have been referring to Cocoa-Jacksonville services rather than Miami-Cocoa...and, of course, that some discussion on the JAX-MIA FEC service plan got muddled with this plan and that I just misread things. I'll have to plead a bit of confusion here...the fact that there are two services being talked about over the same segment of track isn't helping things here at all.


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## Anderson (Mar 29, 2012)

SM Nelson said:


> I hold some FEC bonds. They are rated B3, or junk, and pay a really nice interest rate (8.125%) and are secured paper. They are junk because RR's do not generate large amounts of cash, especially FEC, and their assets are in difficult to convert real estate. The bonds represent virtually the entire debt of the RR, $475 million and mature in 2017. The RR is profitable but not by much, especially considering the debt service $ every six months. Any funding of passenger trains and new lines will require all outside money. Should the RR incur any debt itself I do not believe they could pay it because the current bond issue is secured and any other paper would be subordinate and carry a prohibitive interest rate if anyone would buy the paper at all. I suspect a new corporation would have to be created to run the service and to issue debt paper. FEC as currently structured cannot issue any debt paper without retiring the current bond issue and there is little money to do that. Stay tuned.


From what I've read, FEC went to issue bonds last year and had to offer over 10% on them(!).

Of course, lower grades on bonds seems to be nothing new...Norfolk Southern only gets BBB+...which seems oddly low for such a profitable (almost wildly so) company.


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## bretton88 (Mar 29, 2012)

Anderson said:


> SM Nelson said:
> 
> 
> > I hold some FEC bonds. They are rated B3, or junk, and pay a really nice interest rate (8.125%) and are secured paper. They are junk because RR's do not generate large amounts of cash, especially FEC, and their assets are in difficult to convert real estate. The bonds represent virtually the entire debt of the RR, $475 million and mature in 2017. The RR is profitable but not by much, especially considering the debt service $ every six months. Any funding of passenger trains and new lines will require all outside money. Should the RR incur any debt itself I do not believe they could pay it because the current bond issue is secured and any other paper would be subordinate and carry a prohibitive interest rate if anyone would buy the paper at all. I suspect a new corporation would have to be created to run the service and to issue debt paper. FEC as currently structured cannot issue any debt paper without retiring the current bond issue and there is little money to do that. Stay tuned.
> ...


It should be noted that this proposal is being overseen by FECI (Florida East Coast Industries), not the FEC. FECI is not in debt, and has plenty of valuable properties that will only get more valuable. All the FEC would probably do is operate the trains.


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## Anderson (Mar 29, 2012)

bretton88 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > SM Nelson said:
> ...


Point taken. Also, it seems entirely possible that if FECI funds the capital side of things, FEC might be able to make enough off of the freight shipping they'd surely pick up to defray the risks of passenger operation losses (well, cash losses) while FECI can harvest a bunch of depreciation. Of course, as I said before...I am fairly certain that FEC/FECI is trying to use this to "backdoor" access from the FEC main to Tampa. After all, if they drop the tracks down the center of the Beeline and the center of I-4, they'll get the RoW for free.

And that's the other side of this: Even if the operation crashes and burns, FECI can pull back service frequencies, _probably_ extract a subsidy from the state (I suspect that this operation will be _very_ popular, considering how badly the Orlampa train cancellation went over) and/or dump the operation (and equipment) in Amtrak's lap and just run freight. And if they do so, they've basically picked up a Cocoa-Tampa RoW for the cost of a failed experiment...basically, they've taken a calculated risk.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 30, 2012)

The idea of the Talgos in operation has been batted around here before, BUT...

1)From what I've read, two trainsets would not be enough, but...

What if FEC negotiated with Talgo to build more? Could it be done in time for 2014 service? The manufacturing facility exists and the FRA has approved the design.

2)Labor costs more here in the States, but...

Talgo, it seems to me, might be willing to 'cut a deal' since they built the WI facility with the idea of building more trainsets and the 'start up' costs would be minimal for the Talgos. Also the FEC would get good P.R. for buying "American" - albeit from a Spanish company.

3)They might not be the ideal, but...

The design is modern, some might even say 'sexy.' Certainly European tourists would feel 'at home' in such a trainset. With their lighter weight, Talgo's could be marketed as 'green,' which is something FEC is promoting for its proposed service. And in fact, they would help keep fuel costs down for the FEC. Talgos could possibly be the 'close enough' product with really good timing for this service.

I'm sure some folks here will say 'no way,' but obviously FEC must have a plan or two - possibly even a trick or two - up its sleeve, when it comes to rolling stock, for them to claim service will start in two years or so, and we are left speculating until more information becomes available. :mellow:


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## jis (Mar 30, 2012)

FEC can have two Bombardier MLV train sets with 4 cars each with Acela style seats installed, for cheap from the CRDA from the discontinued ACES rolling stock  125mph capable, ready to run. They could also pick up 4 P40s for cheap from NJT I suppose.  Moreover they could use the remaining 25 options to get more cars for previously negotiated price within two years.

Just sayin'.... not suggesting that it is necessarily the best of ideas.


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## NE933 (Mar 30, 2012)

Is for the NJT multilevels capable of 125mph, that's a 'duh' about me because the me thought they were blessed for only 110. Still though, even at that speed they would provide a formidable rail service. As for the Talgos, I like the railcars in Wisconsin creations as well as those in Oregon and Washington, but the Wisconsin version's engines are horrificly shocking in attractiveness, the nadir of appeal, so much so that I fear the American public won't take it seriously.

But i'll try to not distract from the more main issue of FEC passenger services. If the Talgos and multilevels are all we got to get something running for now, then by all safe means use them.


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## Eric S (Mar 30, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Is for the NJT multilevels capable of 125mph, that's a 'duh' about me because the me thought they were blessed for only 110. Still though, even at that speed they would provide a formidable rail service. As for the Talgos, I like the railcars in Wisconsin creations as well as those in Oregon and Washington, but the *Wisconsin version's engines* are horrificly shocking in attractiveness, the nadir of appeal, so much so that I fear the American public won't take it seriously.
> 
> But i'll try to not distract from the more main issue of FEC passenger services. If the Talgos and multilevels are all we got to get something running for now, then by all safe means use them.


Just to clarify, those are cab cars, not locomotives.


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## NE933 (Mar 31, 2012)

Eric S said:


> Just to clarify, those are cab cars, not locomotives.


They are?! OHHHhhh... well that's much better, but then what do the locomotives look like then? Picktures?


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## Anderson (Mar 31, 2012)

jis said:


> FEC can have two Bombardier MLV train sets with 4 cars each with Acela style seats installed, for cheap from the CRDA from the discontinued ACES rolling stock  125mph capable, ready to run. They could also pick up 4 P40s for cheap from NJT I suppose.  Moreover they could use the remaining 25 options to get more cars for previously negotiated price within two years.
> 
> Just sayin'.... not suggesting that it is necessarily the best of ideas.


Were the ACES sets actually "train sets" (i.e. articulated batches of cars), or just sets of cars that ran together as a rule? I ask because the combination of those two things...well, that might be enough to cover a service (though again, two sets on their own is going to be woefully insufficient).


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## Eric S (Mar 31, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Just to clarify, those are cab cars, not locomotives.
> ...


No locomotives were ordered. The plan was just to use existing Amtrak locomotives with the 2 ordered Talgo trainsets. Had the Madison extension gone through, then locomotives would have been ordered along with 2 additional Talgo trainsets.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2012)

Anderson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > FEC can have two Bombardier MLV train sets with 4 cars each with Acela style seats installed, for cheap from the CRDA from the discontinued ACES rolling stock  125mph capable, ready to run. They could also pick up 4 P40s for cheap from NJT I suppose.  Moreover they could use the remaining 25 options to get more cars for previously negotiated price within two years.
> ...


They were used as two 4 car consists. They are just individual cars with different layouts, so they work best when in the specific combination.

BTW, they are capable of 125mph but are currently certified for only 100mph.


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## George Harris (Mar 31, 2012)

The current contracts out there for single level cars, by-level cars, and engines all say 125 mph.


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## VentureForth (Apr 2, 2012)

Could the FEC make the Southern terminus of this line actually at the cruise terminals if it is a shared location with their freight pickups?


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## Anderson (Apr 2, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Could the FEC make the Southern terminus of this line actually at the cruise terminals if it is a shared location with their freight pickups?


You'd probably want at least some separation or split in the terminal (I don't think being offloaded next to a bunch of intermodal freight is going to be terribly popular).


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## VentureForth (Apr 3, 2012)

I meant generally together, not literally.


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## jphjaxfl (Apr 3, 2012)

Anderson said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Could the FEC make the Southern terminus of this line actually at the cruise terminals if it is a shared location with their freight pickups?
> ...


In the early days of the Florida East Coast, the Havanna Special did disembark passengers directly to the overnight ship to Havanna, Cuba. It was next the piers that handled freight. One if the reasons for the Overseas extension to Key West was to get passengers closer to Havanna with more time on the train, less time on the ship.


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## NE933 (Apr 3, 2012)

Eric S said:


> No locomotives were ordered. The plan was just to use existing Amtrak locomotives with the 2 ordered Talgo trainsets.


I'm gonna sound like Dorothy when learning the gowned lady in Oz was, in fact, a witch, albeit a 'good' one", about the Wisconsin Talgos using Amtrak locomotives: They Are?!!

Why i of all AU people didn't know this is a total mystery...


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## RRUserious (Apr 3, 2012)

This raises a question for me. How many private rail lines are there? Surely not every rail line became part of Amtrak. There must have been at least short routes that never had problems with ridership.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> This raises a question for me. How many private rail lines are there? Surely not every rail line became part of Amtrak. There must have been at least short routes that never had problems with ridership.


AFAIK the only privately owned common carrier passenger railroad in the US today is Saratoga and North Creek. They did not exist before 1971. There are no surviving common carrier passenger operations that are privately owned in US that survived from before A-Day. The private passenger operations other than S&NC that exist are all tourist kind of operations, not common carrier operations.


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## Anderson (Apr 3, 2012)

jis said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> > This raises a question for me. How many private rail lines are there? Surely not every rail line became part of Amtrak. There must have been at least short routes that never had problems with ridership.
> ...


Well, and S&NC is sort of a tourist operation as well (albeit it's a slightly different sort). The others all either:

A) Joined Amtrak eventually (DRG&W and the Georgia Railroad were the last holdouts here; they cut service in the run-up to mergers); or

B) Had their passenger services shifted to public transport agencies (Conrail in the mid-80s and the CSS&SB in the late 80s were the last transfers on this front, IIRC; the LIRR was another example, though in that case I forget when NY State took things over).

There were probably a few lines that didn't get into trouble (and by a few lines, I mean specific routes), but they were largely overwhelmed by the general collapse in passenger service. An example that comes to mind would be the San Diegans (which Santa Fe never moved to get rid of).


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## PRR 60 (Apr 3, 2012)

Anderson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > RRUserious said:
> ...


I would consider the Grand Canyon Railway is the same category as the Saratoga and North Creek. It runs daily, year-round (with one or two holiday exceptions), performs a serious transportation function, and even has joint ticketing with Amtrak.


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## Eric S (Apr 3, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > No locomotives were ordered. The plan was just to use existing Amtrak locomotives with the 2 ordered Talgo trainsets.
> ...


When WI had the $800+ million for the MKE-MSN Hiawatha extension, the plan was to use state funds to buy 2 Talgo trainsets (the 2 currently under construction and/or nearly finished), and use the federal funds to buy 2 additional Talgo trainsets and 8 locomotives (2 per trainset). With the cancellation of the MKE-MSN extension, WI switched to planning to just use existing Amtrak locomotives for the 2 state-purchased Talgo trainsets.

I can't recall exactly, but I wouldn't be surprised if in 2009 or 2010 there were renderings of the Talgo trainsets showing some sort of Talgo locomotive paired with them, perhaps leading to the confusion. That, or you've just been walking the Yellow Brick Road too long.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 3, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> This raises a question for me. How many private rail lines are there? Surely not every rail line became part of Amtrak. There must have been at least short routes that never had problems with ridership.


Southern, D&RGW, Rock Island, South Shore, Reading, all opted out. Southern and Rio Grande elected to run their own trains to have complete control over main lines, Rock Island was broke and couldn't afford the entry fee, Georgia got a tax break if it continued to run passenger trains (which it did as mixed trains), Reading and South Shore were essentially long distance commuter trains.

Southern and Rio Grande, after a number of years, gave up and joined Amtrak.

Rock Island went bankrupt and was sold and broken up into various new companies. Its two remaining intercity trains (which had been subsidized by Illinois for a couple of years) went away; Chicago RTA bought Chicago-Joliet route and operated commuter trains.

Georgia merged into CSX, lost its tax break and the mixed trains went away.

Reading became part of Conrail and all of Conrail's commuter trains were taken over by public authorities or discontinued.

South Shore bought out by public authority.

Alaska Railroad control transferred from U.S. DOT to state of Alaska.

Saratoga and North Creek and Grand Canyon Railroad, although primarily tourist runs, connect with Amtrak, either directly in the case of S&NC, or via bus in case of Grand Canyon and probably could be considered privately owned and operated intercity.

Until the FEC begins operations in Florida (and that's far from being a reality), there's no other privately owned and operated passenger trains in U.S.


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## Anderson (Apr 4, 2012)

Huh. I did not know that IL had been subsidizing the Rock Island operations.


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## RRUserious (Apr 4, 2012)

"Tourist operations". Seems to me that fits all of Amtrak to some degree. Amtrak really does not seem like something the bulk of passengers depend on to get around. I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination". I also think that I'd lump in every rail route not run by Amtrak into the "other category". Even if there isn't a private transportation business behind them, they still have to be the kind of thing that can operate without Congress reauthorizing the Amtrak budget.


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## VentureForth (Apr 4, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> Until the FEC begins operations in Florida (and that's far from being a reality), there's no other privately owned and operated passenger trains in U.S.


Hey now, don't forget the Las Vegas Monorail .

I think I would take exception to the Grand Canyon Railroad being a privately owned passenger transportation system as opposed to a tourist railroad. Sure, it offers connect service to the Grand Canyon, but there are no intermediate stops on the line.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


I was not proffering my opinion of the nature of operation of S&NC or any other. I was simply stating a fact as a matter of law as was explained to me. Passenger Railroads can be chartered in one of two ways in the US. They can either be chartered as a _Common Carrier_ or as a _Private Carrier_. Railroads like Amtrak and all commuter lines and S&NC are chartered as _Common Carrier_. Other passenger operations are chartered as _Private Carriers_. _Common Carriers_ have to meet more stringent requirements both in terms of service provided and in terms of corporate governance(in some sense of the phrase  ) than do _Private Carriers_.

So while on the surface GCR and S&NC may appear to be similar, as a matter of law apparently they are different.

Again, I am no legal expert. I am just stating as things were explained to me by the GM of S&NC, who possibly even has an axe to grind, and am happy to be corrected by someone who has a more detailed and better founded in facts explanation of this matter.

BTW, Anderson, LIRR was taken over by NY State in 1966 and placed under the _Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Authority_, which then changed its name to _Metropolitan Transportation Authority_ in 1968.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 4, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> "Tourist operations". Seems to me that fits all of Amtrak to some degree. Amtrak really does not seem like something the bulk of passengers depend on to get around. I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination". I also think that I'd lump in every rail route not run by Amtrak into the "other category". Even if there isn't a private transportation business behind them, they still have to be the kind of thing that can operate without Congress reauthorizing the Amtrak budget.


Amtrak handles tourist, as do all railroads, even such turds as SEPTA, and even such vital infrastructure monsters as the NYC Subway. Believe me when I say the vast majority of Amtrak in general, and probably a majority of LD passengers, are using the train primarily as a mode of transportation.


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## VentureForth (Apr 4, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> I would consider the Grand Canyon Railway is the same category as the Saratoga and North Creek. It runs daily, year-round (with one or two holiday exceptions), performs a serious transportation function, and even has joint ticketing with Amtrak.


I respectfully disagree. The S&NC doesn't run in the Winter - only Memorial Day through the end of October. The Winter operation is a "Snow Train" and operated under a completely different banner.



RRUserious said:


> "Tourist operations". Seems to me that fits all of Amtrak to some degree. Amtrak really does not seem like something the bulk of passengers depend on to get around. I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination". I also think that I'd lump in every rail route not run by Amtrak into the "other category". Even if there isn't a private transportation business behind them, they still have to be the kind of thing that can operate without Congress reauthorizing the Amtrak budget.


I think my wife would absolutely kill me if I said, "Hey hon! Let's go ride the Silver Meteor to NYC and back. No, we can't afford to spend the night in NYC - we'll just take the train right back."

I would agree with GML that the mass majority of people that ride Amtrak - even long distance - do it to get from point A-B, not solely for the opportunity to ride Amtrak. Trust me, for a cost similar to a cross country bedroom trek across the country, you can have a decent cruise to the Bahamas, and believe me there is no comparison in what you get for the money!


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## jis (Apr 4, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> "Tourist operations". Seems to me that fits all of Amtrak to some degree. Amtrak really does not seem like something the bulk of passengers depend on to get around. I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination". I also think that I'd lump in every rail route not run by Amtrak into the "other category". Even if there isn't a private transportation business behind them, they still have to be the kind of thing that can operate without Congress reauthorizing the Amtrak budget.


Way way more than half of Amtrak ridership is on Corridor trains which almost exclusively provide transportation function with close to zero tourist function. Of the rest possibly only about half have a significant tourist component. So I would say that the assessment is more or less an overstatement of the tourist function played by Amtrak on the whole. The position that "I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination"." would not be sustainable by available facts. Of course I assume that the word "operation" was meant in place of "destination" since otherwise the quoted sentence does not make much sense.


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## NE933 (Apr 4, 2012)

jis said:


> Of course I assume that the word "operation" was meant in place of "destination" since otherwise the quoted sentence does not make much sense.


Well how do we know the difference? Taking a train, plane, boat, or whatever - involves using a temporary destination comfortable enough to move the paying party from one place to the other, and back. Or something in that way of one or the other or some such....


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## NE933 (Apr 4, 2012)

Eric S said:


> That, or you've just been walking the Yellow Brick Road too long.


I have a few bricks missing on my Yellow Brick Road; can't ya tell?

8-P


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## johnny.menhennet (Apr 4, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Until the FEC begins operations in Florida (and that's far from being a reality), there's no other privately owned and operated passenger trains in U.S.
> ...


I would also agree that it is a tourist operation. IIRC, all of their pricing is based R/T, and I'm not sure you could get a O/W price.


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## RampWidget (Apr 5, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


No reason that FEC could not serve the cruise terminals directly if desired. At Fort Lauderdale, the FEC mainline runs right by the vehicle entrance to Port Everglades (and the other side runs right by the FLL airport).

In Miami, the FEC and the Port of Miami are already working to restore direct rail service to the port, which is actually located on Dodge Island out in Biscayne Bay. Cruise ships use the north side of Dodge Island and so are generally already separated from the cargo operations at the Port of Miami.


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## VentureForth (Apr 5, 2012)

And that would be a huge advantage for the FEC and a restoration to Flager's dream of bringing tourists to Miami!


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## TVRM610 (Apr 5, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> "Tourist operations". Seems to me that fits all of Amtrak to some degree. Amtrak really does not seem like something the bulk of passengers depend on to get around. I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination". I also think that I'd lump in every rail route not run by Amtrak into the "other category". Even if there isn't a private transportation business behind them, they still have to be the kind of thing that can operate without Congress reauthorizing the Amtrak budget.


All of Amtrak? or All of Amtrak LD?

The Acela, Regionals, Cascades, Carolinian, Surfliners, Piedmont, Keystone Trains, Pennsylvanian, Illinois Corridor are most certainly NOT tourist operations to any degree. They are intercity rail transportation. The Long Distance trains are a bit more debate-able since I have seen a good number of "tourist" type or "taking the train cause it sounded fun" types. Having said that, I think very very few people are using the train like a cruise ship, they are still using the train to get from point a to point b. I mean most flights to Vegas and Orlando could be considered "tourist operations" too.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe that people still use the train for transportation. I mean how does Greyhound and Mega Bus stay in business? Because people need to get from point A to point B and do not wish to drive or fly (or the options aren't available). If I want to take a train for fun, I'll ride the Strasburg Railroad, or one of the many steam trains in Colorado. I take Amtrak because it's my preferred way to get to a destination.


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## Anderson (Apr 5, 2012)

My (albeit anecdotal) experience is that a _lot_ of the traffic on the Silvers, for a good example, is rather "transportational" (that is, going from A to B and taking the train to do it, not taking a train and incidentally going from A to B). Now, it may be people going on vacation to Florida via train (or going up north on business via train), but the key is that it is "X _via train_".

Now, I'll confess to having taken more than one "excuse trip" on the train locally (i.e. up to Richmond "for dinner"...it's an excuse trip, I admit it), and I'll be doing one this fall with Charlie on the Crescent/CONO/Cardinal (I have _no_ good reason to go to New Orleans, but it's where the train is running and it makes for the best trip) and another one out of Norfolk as soon as that train starts operating (so help me, I intend to be on the first scheduled train out of Norfolk; if I'm lucky, I'll also be back home in time for lunch via another train). And yes I've done some points runs (WAS-NYP on the Acela leaps to mind...but then again, the Acela is synonymous with "points run" for me). But most of my train trips have had a decent reason behind them, and they were simply the travel part of a trip somewhere.

In this vein, I think it is fair to say that most of my wishes for a better train network have much more to do with being grumpy about having to drive somewhere because either there is no train in the region or the train schedule to get somewhere is absurdly clunky (Altoona, I'm looking at you). I've spent far too much of my life stuck in a car going from A to B and eating bad food along the way to want to do much more of it; I'd rather have someone else handle the driving and have a decent dining car to go to at meal time.


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## rrdude (Apr 7, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> I think I would take exception to the Grand Canyon Railroad being a privately owned passenger transportation system as opposed to a tourist railroad. Sure, it offers connect service to the Grand Canyon, but there are *no intermediate stops on the line*.


Nor are there any intermediate stops on Amtrak's Auto-Train, and it is hardly considered a "Tourist Train", although thousands of tourists take it each year.........






The GCR does indeed provide transportation, for those without autos, or who wish not to rent a car, or ride in a bus to get to the canyon.

And Johnny.Mehennett writes, "*I would also agree that it is a tourist operation. IIRC, all of their pricing is based R/T, and I'm not sure you could get a O/W price.*" 



I'm willing to bet if you dig deep enough into the tariffs you'd find O/W pricing published, just not advertised.


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## Oldsmoboi (Apr 10, 2012)

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > On the one hand, I don't have ready access to PA's "noises"; on the other hand, I would be sort of surprised if they cut the Pennsylvanian, considering both its high ridership (for a once-daily corridor operation) and the fact that they were apparently seriously looking at adding a second daily frequency lately. Mind you, it seems _quite_ possible that there are going to be sour grapes over Amtrak not counting any PHL-NYP travel towards PA's credit...but I'm not sure that this would be enough to get the train canned.
> ...


Our Republican Governor is both pro-Amtrak and pro-Pittsburgh... he won't let the train die.


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## Oldsmoboi (Apr 10, 2012)

Anderson said:


> SM Nelson said:
> 
> 
> > I hold some FEC bonds. They are rated B3, or junk, and pay a really nice interest rate (8.125%) and are secured paper. They are junk because RR's do not generate large amounts of cash, especially FEC, and their assets are in difficult to convert real estate. The bonds represent virtually the entire debt of the RR, $475 million and mature in 2017. The RR is profitable but not by much, especially considering the debt service $ every six months. Any funding of passenger trains and new lines will require all outside money. Should the RR incur any debt itself I do not believe they could pay it because the current bond issue is secured and any other paper would be subordinate and carry a prohibitive interest rate if anyone would buy the paper at all. I suspect a new corporation would have to be created to run the service and to issue debt paper. FEC as currently structured cannot issue any debt paper without retiring the current bond issue and there is little money to do that. Stay tuned.
> ...


When the government gets downgraded, everyone else ends up downgraded too


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## Oldsmoboi (Apr 10, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> "Tourist operations". Seems to me that fits all of Amtrak to some degree. Amtrak really does not seem like something the bulk of passengers depend on to get around. I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination". I also think that I'd lump in every rail route not run by Amtrak into the "other category". Even if there isn't a private transportation business behind them, they still have to be the kind of thing that can operate without Congress reauthorizing the Amtrak budget.


Well that makes US Airways and Grayhound tourist operations since they can't operate without Congress reauthorizing the TSA, ATC, and Highway budgets...


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## Colonel Klink (Apr 10, 2012)

Oldsmoboi said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> > "Tourist operations". Seems to me that fits all of Amtrak to some degree. Amtrak really does not seem like something the bulk of passengers depend on to get around. I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination". I also think that I'd lump in every rail route not run by Amtrak into the "other category". Even if there isn't a private transportation business behind them, they still have to be the kind of thing that can operate without Congress reauthorizing the Amtrak budget.
> ...


Oh, I beg to differ. I think the airlines, Greyhound, and the travelling public would be far better off if the TSA lost all funding along with its mandate to exist. They'd be far safer too. Amirite, amirite?!


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## PaulM (Apr 11, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> "Tourist operations". Seems to me that fits all of Amtrak to some degree. Amtrak really does not seem like something the bulk of passengers depend on to get around. I would argue that Amtrak IS a "tourist destination".


I completely disagree with this.

First of all, I think we should substitute the word "vacationer" for tourist. Then we could have a reasonable discussion about the percentage breakdown between traveling for vacation, to visit family, on business, as a destination (a foamer riding for no other reason than to ride), etc. You might use it as a destination; but I very much doubt the bulk of Amtrak's passengers do. And if the bulk of passengers don't depend on it to get around, what do they depend on it for? If the train in a given situation isn't the cheapest or fastest; that doesn't mean it's a destination, just the preferred means of transport.


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## Dixie (Apr 13, 2012)

Anderson said:


> What this does raise is some interesting possibilities, such as cruises being able to add on a "Disney adder" on one end of a cruise as part of a package...or, indeed, Disney being able to do run some operations that include a rail transfer to/from the ships.


We have an extended family cruise booked on Disney out of Port Canaveral this coming December. Taking the train to Florida would be our ideal mode of transportation (two of my last four trips to WDW have been on Amtrak to KIS), but since we're adding the cruise component to the vacation, it's much less hassle to drive our own cars to Florida.

I would **love** to take a train from WDW or from points north to Port Canaveral. Right now, Disney runs motorcoaches from its resorts to Port Canaveral at a cost of ~$70 per person round trip. While it conveniently provides resort-to-stateroom luggage service, for a family it adds significantly to the cost of a cruise. If ever Disney offered private rail coaches coaches directly from WDW, I imagine the price would be similar to their current motorcoach service if not more.

While Disney operates the majority of its cruises out of Port Canaveral, in Dec. 2012 they will start a 6-month stint of cruises on the Disney Wonder out of Miami. No word yet if those cruises will continue past 2013, but a WDW > Miami port rail option (without the Tampa detour) would be great.


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