# why can't food be better



## northnorthwest (Jan 19, 2016)

I read part of another discussion about french toast.

Why can't Amtrak have great food that is made totally fresh? I said a while back if the food trucks in Philly can make fresh food, why can't Amtrak? It's pathetic. And I say that as someone who loves trains and supports amtrak.


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 19, 2016)

Congressman Mica doesn't want "taxpayers" subsidizing "rich" Amtrak passengers.


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## Caesar La Rock (Jan 20, 2016)

Simple, because the government doesn't take Amtrak seriously, despite the fact more and more people are riding it. They also don't have the guts to properly fund it. I would say something much worst then that, but I'm not looking to get in trouble. Give Amtrak $10 billion a year in subsidies and I guarantee it you'll see a different system and better food being supplied.


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## Palmetto (Jan 20, 2016)

What's probably needed to sensitize the people with the purse strings [the government] is more clamor from the populace :mellow:


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## slither (Jan 20, 2016)

Agree with Caeser La Rock. If our government would subsidies Amtrak like they do the trucking and air industries things would be considerably better for Amtrak (equipment, food, etc.) maybe then the home railroads would give Amtrak some respect even when there freight traffic rebounds. Our politicians should try to bring this countries train travel up a few notches by investing more (money) towards it.


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## Train2104 (Jan 20, 2016)

Caesar La Rock said:


> Simple, because the government doesn't take Amtrak seriously, despite the fact more and more people are riding it. They also don't have the guts to properly fund it. I would say something much worst then that, but I'm not looking to get in trouble. Give Amtrak $10 billion a year in subsidies and I guarantee it you'll see a different system and better food being supplied.


If Amtrak got an increased subsidy I would sure hope they would put it toward more trains than better food.

If you surveyed passengers (or potential passengers) on what they disliked most about Amtrak; frequency, OTP, and better equipment would be the first priorities long before better food.

Outside of the railfan crowd is the food situation generating lots of complaints by those who are riding the train for transportation? (yes, here I am including the LD's too, just not the "land cruise" segment of the ridership which is by no means all of the ridership)

That said, if they want to save money on food service they need to stop touting it as a reason for people to ride.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Jan 20, 2016)

Caesar La Rock said:


> Simple, because the government doesn't take Amtrak seriously, despite the fact more and more people are riding it. They also don't have the guts to properly fund it. I would say something much worst then that, but I'm not looking to get in trouble. Give Amtrak $10 billion a year in subsidies and I guarantee it you'll see a different system and better food being supplied.


Congress under funds Amtrak and then hollers "Look how bad it is!"


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 20, 2016)

Here's the sad part... Amtrak doesn't have to make food fresh to have some great food!

The Lamb Shank, Mahi Mahi Filet, Beechers Cheee Mac & Cheese, and Crab Cakes (the previous ones from a few years ago) were all excellent!

I'm sure these dishes are a little more expensive for Amtrak to buy, but they obviously come from the same supplier and can

be prepared on board using whatever "quick and easy" methods are necessary.


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## BCL (Jan 20, 2016)

Food trucks don't make fresh food. Most of it is prepared (or partially prepared) well in advance and basically reheated. They all have kitchen facilities in a permanent location.


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## northnorthwest (Jan 20, 2016)

BCL said:


> Food trucks don't make fresh food. Most of it is prepared (or partially prepared) well in advance and basically reheated. They all have kitchen facilities in a permanent location.


Doesn't dispute my point. Set up a small kitchen in NYP or wherever along the route to do the prep. Then load up the train and do it. I think the real excuse must be poor funding combined with bureaucratic nonsense. Either way, no real excuse. They did it in the past (before I had a chance to ride).


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 20, 2016)

northnorthwest said:


> Why can't Amtrak have great food that is made totally fresh? I said a while back if the food trucks in Philly can make fresh food, why can't Amtrak? It's pathetic. And I say that as someone who loves trains and supports amtrak.


There are lots of reasons actually, both logistical and cultural, but it wasn't that long ago that things _were_ actually improving. Even a consummate cynic such as yours truly was lauding the improvement. And then...



MikefromCrete said:


> Congressman Mica doesn't want "taxpayers" subsidizing "rich" Amtrak passengers.


^ This happened. More specifically John Mica helped start what Bill Shuster and fellow colleagues continue to grow. Namely, the staunchly anti-Amtrak congressional caucus.



Caesar La Rock said:


> Simple, because the government doesn't take Amtrak seriously, despite the fact more and more people are riding it. They also don't have the guts to properly fund it. I would say something much worst then that, but I'm not looking to get in trouble. Give Amtrak $10 billion a year in subsidies and I guarantee it you'll see a different system and better food being supplied.


The administration in the Executive Branch has been more than willing to fully fund Amtrak for nearly eight years now. The minority in the Legislative Branch is also more than willing to fund Amtrak. Even the Judicial Branch hasn't done anything to seriously undermine Amtrak in recent memory. Most of Amtrak's serious detractors are limited to a single anti-government political party so let's not get stuck in a low effort false equivalency trap.



BCL said:


> Food trucks don't make fresh food. Most of it is prepared (or partially prepared) well in advance and basically reheated. They all have kitchen facilities in a permanent location.


That sounds like a distinction without a difference. I've visited numerous food trucks across multiple cites and states and never once have I found a single food truck that resembled Amtrak's bland and stale commissary chow.


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## KmH (Jan 20, 2016)

It's my impression the kitchen on a Amtrak train is quite busy, even with lots of commissary pre-prepared items - like pre-cooked bacon.

I think on the LD trains the kitchen staff is the Chef and just one or 2 Food Specialists.

On a LD train those 2 or 3 have a long day preparing breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Define "made totally fresh".

Small kitchens along all the various route would require quite a few additional employees. Employees that wouldn't actually be needed on a full-time basis.


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## PerRock (Jan 20, 2016)

Unless the drastically overhauled the kitchens; the equipment onboard should be quite adequate to cook quite good fresh meals on board. It's more a matter of staff & supplies.

That all being said it is perfectly possible to have good & cheap pre-prepared food on board a train, Amtrak has just decided (and I'm not certain it really is much of a financial reason, yes that's what they'll claim...) to go for the cheap cafeteria type food.

peter


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## tricia (Jan 20, 2016)

There's really no good-enough FUNDING excuse for the poor quality of Amtrak food.

I personally, on multiple occasions, have seen two volunteers (sometimes one!) produce delicious, nutritious meals for 50-100 or more at camps, outdoors, supplied with nothing more than a random assortment of donated or scavenged food plus a few staples, using primitive propane stoves or campfires and nothing but coolers for refrigeration.

Of course you don't get steak dinners on a zero budget. But I'd trade any number of meals I've eaten, prepared as noted above, for almost anything I've eaten out of an Amtrak kitchen.

Not to put words in DA's mouth, but the chief "cultural" problem I see is with whoever's in charge of running Amtrak's food service. They could do a LOT better with the same money or possibly even less. Compare, for example, the turkey shank that used to be served on some trains, with the sad beef stewish option currently being served on the CONO. I doubt that the ingredients for the former cost more than those for the latter.

And don't get me started on the sorry, soggy state of the vegetables. :wacko:

Amtrak could do so much better, even without spending more money. Heck, I'm sure that if they bought more INGREDIENTS and fewer packaged heat-and-serve concoctions, they could spend LESS on better-quality food--perhaps enough less to be able to afford to pay properly trained staff to prepare and cook the stuff.

OK, end of rant. I love traveling on Amtrak, but am approaching the point where I dread the dining car.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 20, 2016)

I'm with DA and Tricia on this one! Two years ago Amtrak food was really getting better, enter Mica with his Witch hunt and Mr. Boardman's impossible to keep pledge to eliminate losses on food and beverage services, and voila!, today's bland National menu!

My personal gripe is with the change in deserts, which used to be excellent( ever have that delicious Bourbon Pecan Pie on the CONO or the Crescent?),and of course what they did with the Star and CONO is a disgrace! YMMV


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## neroden (Jan 20, 2016)

Whenever Amtrak is told to "cut dining costs" by idiots in Congress, the management even-more-idiotically cuts the quality and quantity of the *FOOD*. Which is a tiny fraction of the costs of operation of the dining service; the costs are mostly staff salaries, car maintenance, etc. When Amtrak does cut staffing it does so in an idiotic way which slows down service and decreases turnover.

Really the way to "cut dining costs" is to sell more food and turn tables over faster -- higher volume with the same expenses, generating more revenue to *cover* the costs.. But there's been a myopic focus on costs, while ignoring efficiency.

There is one Mexican restaurant in my town which I swear must have the best profit margin of any restaurant in town. They fill up not only for dinner but also for lunch, and they're busy all day every day, even Mondays. They turn tables over faster than any other sit-down restaurant in town, because they take orders fast, they deliver orders fast, and they bring the check fast. The kitchen internally is organized in assembly-line fashion, though each dish is prepared by a single person -- the chefs each walk around in a continuous circle from station to station. The ingredients are high quality; the sauces are pre-prepared (in the morning before opening for lunch) as are the fillings (this is also when they cook the chips and shred the cheese); it's assemble, cook, deliver. They have rather high-quality food and rather low prices. They also have a lot of waiters and a lot of people in the kitchen, and by all accounts they're unusually well paid. But they've figured out how to *mass produce food quickly*: by feeding two parties in the time other restaurants would feed one party, and handling a huge number of tables out of a small kitchen, they make money on volume. Obviously their exact model wouldn't work for Amtrak (I think people would be annoyed by nothing but Mexican food) but you get the idea.


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## philabos (Jan 20, 2016)

There is a fresh cooked, locally sourced breakfast but you will have to head across the pond to enjoy.

The Great Western Railway offers this mouth watering offering on selected services from the west of England to London on their high speed service.

https://www.gwr.com/your-journey/journey-information/on-board/~/media/72e9fadadd474e59a97070cb17ff3f6a.ashx

You will note the price is an eye watering 18 pounds or $26.

If you are still hungry on the way home, they also offer a steak dinner for $41.

Outside the expense account riders on the NEC, not sure how much Amtrak would sell at those prices.


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## tomfuller (Jan 20, 2016)

Last March myself and two other lucky sleeper passengers had a very good breakfast with Mark Murphy (Amtrak VP of LD routes). I had no complaints and neither did the others about the food on the Southwest Chief.

Earlier on the California Zephyr, I did have a fish meal that was about the worst I have ever eaten (anywhere not just Amtrak).

On both trips I was using Amtrak Guest Rewards points and could eat anything on the menu. I don't remember ever getting a bad steak.

I'm hoping that Mark has saved the route of the SWC through Raton for at least another year. He was on his way to a rail users meeting in Los Angeles last March.


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## northnorthwest (Jan 20, 2016)

philabos said:


> There is a fresh cooked, locally sourced breakfast but you will have to head across the pond to enjoy.
> 
> The Great Western Railway offers this mouth watering offering on selected services from the west of England to London on their high speed service.
> 
> ...


It doesn't have to be that expensive. Let's get back to the Philly example. I can watch the person in the cart make bacon, eggs, and toast in front of me on the tiniest griddle. It tastes great and costs maybe 3.50 for a blt or similar. I can get a lot of other great stuff for $5 or less. I don't see why Amtrak can't make the same quality stuff in their comparably huge kitchen and charge more if they want.

As for the UK example, I don't think that is insanely expensive for an occasional thing if it's excellent. But no, I wouldn't do it on a regular basis!


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## PerRock (Jan 21, 2016)

No one here has probably seen the UK-version of Kitchen Nightmares with Ramsay; however over there in the show he much more concerned with the quality of the food keeping prices down and customers up rather then the emotional baggage they tout here in the US version. I'd love to see him do a UK-style Nightmares on Amtrak!

peter


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## Ryan (Jan 21, 2016)

I have, it's awesome. Way better than the crap version we get here in the US.


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## andersone (Jan 21, 2016)

I have seen, over and over again, all the episodes of Kitchen Nightmares - UK and US. Ramsay's brilliance is that he changes the staff conviction to SERVE GOOD STUFF. Plain and simple. Unfortunately the Amtrak fish doesn't swim in that pond.. In the words of Dick Clark I would rate my overall Amtrak Dining experience as an 80, easy to dance to but sometimes the lyrics are fuzzy.

The success of any business is the willingness of the staff to provide good service. If you haven't got that you are navigating and estuary lacking any means or propulsion.

Father was an old swede who lived by doing the best with what you have. Rant about Micah et. al - that is not the fix. Getting good folk to do good stuff with what they have is the key. I lament the loss of the "specials" because they gave a good chef the chance to show his stuff. If folks care about what they do it will show in their work. Mother used to say "If you get to go to work you are OK, you are only in trouble when you have to go to work." Sadly that is the case with many people. You see it all the time.

I live five miles outside a town of 6,000. The high school has about 200 kids in a class. The superintendent used to whine he didn't have the facilities the kids need yet when I would attend a band concert the place was a pig sty . I told him that he couldn't' take care of what he had. The smart man would make sure the place shined every time every time the tourists (parents) showed up.

Simply put better ingredients no doubt would improve the quality of the currently slightly above average product but not to the level a committed staff would make. The way to do that is recognize and reward success, which is awkward in the current environment but if management wanted to they could. But I prefer not to start that rant,,,,,,


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## caravanman (Jan 21, 2016)

I am not a gourmand in any way, but I find Amtrak food is pretty dire. I have mostly enjoyed "ethnic" food offerings in America, over the usual pizza, hot dogs and burgers that are available nationwide. My perception is that although there are excellent food options in the USA, many folk seem to feel that a certain make of hot dog or crusty pizza is a premium meal, rather than junk food.

Railway catering is not great in the western world, and fresh cooked food is probably very rare... but the Amtrak fare is hard to swallow. Give me a food truck meal anytime!

Ed.


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## GaSteve (Jan 21, 2016)

As a Trails and Rails volunteer for the past 2 years taking an average of five ATL-NOL round trips a year, I have no issues with the food. A few times it has been less than optimal, but the quality is generally pretty good and some things have been beyond that. IMO, they do a good job considering the constraints they have.


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## rrdude (Jan 21, 2016)

BCL said:


> Food trucks don't make fresh food. Most of it is prepared (or partially prepared) well in advance and basically reheated. They all have kitchen facilities in a permanent location.


Very, very, very, INCORRECT.


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## rrdude (Jan 21, 2016)

PerRock said:


> No one here has probably seen the UK-version of Kitchen Nightmares with Ramsay; however over there in the show he much more concerned with the quality of the food keeping prices down and customers up rather then the emotional baggage they tout here in the US version. I'd love to see him do a UK-style Nightmares on Amtrak!
> 
> peter


I've seen virtually every episode, and all the other "formula" kitchen rescue and bar rescue shows. There are several common denominators, but one being this:


Buying fresh instead of prepared, not only reduces food cost, but creates better quality meals
Labor cost DOES rise.
Amtrak has consistency and FDA rules to adhere too, unlike the guy at a food wagon or roach-coach, who probably DOES have rules to follow, but has far less oversight.


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## neroden (Jan 21, 2016)

northnorthwest said:


> It doesn't have to be that expensive. Let's get back to the Philly example. I can watch the person in the cart make bacon, eggs, and toast in front of me on the tiniest griddle. It tastes great and costs maybe 3.50 for a blt or similar. I can get a lot of other great stuff for $5 or less. I don't see why Amtrak can't make the same quality stuff in their comparably huge kitchen and charge more if they want.


Ding ding ding! You understand how it ought to be!


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## neroden (Jan 21, 2016)

rrdude said:


> I've seen virtually every episode, and all the other "formula" kitchen rescue and bar rescue shows. There are several common denominators, but one being this:
> 
> 
> Buying fresh instead of prepared, not only reduces food cost, but creates better quality meals
> Labor cost DOES rise.


Here's another important recurring feature which Gordon Ramsey and others hammer on repeatedly, and this one is subtle, but crucial to the economics of a restaurant:

Design a menu which features a small list of ingredients. Then get really good ingredients for that small list.

Do not design a menu with hundreds of ingredients. This avoids spoilage.

The number of dishes on the menu is irrelevant; the number of ingredients is crucial for controlling spoilage and pricing.

The classic example is the Chinese restaurant menu. There appear to be large numbers of items on the menu, but really they're combinations of:

-- Chicken

-- Beef

-- Pork

-- (standard vegetable assortment)

-- (nowadays) Tofu

+

-- noodles

-- rice

+

-- Sauce #1

-- Sauce #2

-- Sauce #3

-- Sauce #4

(etc.)

You can even have a long list of sauces because they don't go bad.

------

So here's an Amtrak concept. They have a grill, right?...

-- grilled eggs (any style -- not poached!)

-- grilled bacon

-- grilled steak (your choice from a selection of sprinkled seasonings)

-- grilled vegetables (standard selection of fresh grillable vegetables)

-- grilled tofu

-- omelette (optional ingredients: cheese, anything listed above)

-- grilled cheese sandwich (optional ingredients: anything listed above)

-- standard mixed-greens salad (greens + same vegetables above, but not grilled -- and optional steak or bacon)

-- non-grilled sandwich (optional ingredients: anything listed above -- the mixed greens from the salad, etc.)

-- fried egg sandwich (you're getting the idea by now)

-- bread on the side (same as the sandwich bread)

This supplies breakfast, lunch, dinner, vegetarian options, vegan options, balanced meals, all fresh, with a common list of ingredients. There's a lot of grilling, but you're *leveraging your ingredients menu* by using the eggs and the steak at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And the menu *looks* long...


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## northnorthwest (Jan 22, 2016)

neroden said:


> northnorthwest said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't have to be that expensive. Let's get back to the Philly example. I can watch the person in the cart make bacon, eggs, and toast in front of me on the tiniest griddle. It tastes great and costs maybe 3.50 for a blt or similar. I can get a lot of other great stuff for $5 or less. I don't see why Amtrak can't make the same quality stuff in their comparably huge kitchen and charge more if they want.
> ...


Thank you for the bell. It's been a while since I won a prize!


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## NETrainfan (Jan 22, 2016)

We were on the Silver Meteor a little over a year ago and had good meals. Has the quality gone down since then?

The breakfast was very good, the lunch good, and the dinner was good. The entrees were well cooked and hot.

The vegetables were good and the desserts were too good (cheesecake).

We have traveled Amtrak for over 20 years and have enjoyed the food. Is this rare?


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## Manny T (Jan 22, 2016)

It's tough to read through this discussion and not come across the word "labor." In a given year, take 2012, the food served aboard Amtrak LD trains cost $59.8 mil and generated revenues of $63.5 mil. That's a $3.7 mil profit, right? Wrong. Because labor to prepare and serve that food cost $75.3 mil. Net net the loss on LD food service in 2012 was $71.5 mil. That is actually a lot of money. Which leads to cost cutting measures and results in the food we are all familiar with from dining on Amtrak.

Solutions? Sell twice as much food without raising labor costs. Or double the price of food on LD trains to make up the deficit. In other words, there is no solution. Unless you eliminate the labor (self-service on Amtrak? Didn't they once consider vending machines??)

And that explains why Amtrak does what it does--every year it makes incremental changes to food service that reduce costs somewhat (eliminate this, downgrade that) so it can show Congress that losses are DEcreasing year by year. Which they are. But one has to say that with the exception of a nice dinner here or there, overall quality is also decreasing imo.


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## NETrainfan (Jan 22, 2016)

How can Amtrak provide budget sensible food service in the future?

Is the food service just too costly for Amtrak at this time? Is it really making such a big difference in the big budget picture?

We are more concerned with getting from Point A to Point B in the most comfortable way possible- for us that is by train.

As long as there is drinking water available, we will take the train!


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## Manny T (Jan 22, 2016)

I understand your point NET although you don't mention if Points A and B require long distance travel.

I'm not sure how LD travel would fare without food service. Going back to the 2012 statistics, that $63.5 mil in revenue was generated by 4.7 million LD passengers. So think about it this way--4.7 mil PAX spent $63.5 mil on food while traveling on LD trains. You can argue whether food service on trains is "essential" or not. But the fact is, current Amtrak passengers (a) seem to want it and (b) seen to be prepared to pay for it. The question here is, can what is delivered to the plate be improved?


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## niemi24s (Jan 22, 2016)

I don't have a bazillion miles of Amtrak travel under my belt like most others, but what I've eaten over the years I'd rate as good or better. But I'm no food snoot. And don't forget - it's not your Mommies kitchen.


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## NETrainfan (Jan 22, 2016)

We usually travel LD trains and do enjoy the food service.

However, if the food service (whether good, fair, or otherwise) is not paying for itself- what are the alternatives for the future?


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## neroden (Jan 22, 2016)

Manny T said:


> Solutions? Sell twice as much food without raising labor costs.


This is totally doable.

First thing to understand: Amtrak's dining cars are still operating on the vestiges of a "three course meal" model, or even a "five course meal" model. Even fancy restaurants don't really do that anymore. Switch to a "two course" model (second course being dessert, which a lot of people skip anyway) and you've already sped up the table turnover while reducing labor cost.

There's a lot of stuff like that going on at Amtrak.

The menu is badly designed as well, as I just explained. Gordon Ramsey consistently advises "few ingredients and few cooking methods", and if you can generate a large menu like that, it *looks* impressive but isn't any extra work and all the dishes are quality (so you can charge more for them while getting lots of customers). Some restaurants can do great turnover by only offering *one* dish, and just making it really good. The captive clientele on Amtrak will want a little more selection than that, but the principle doesn't change.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 22, 2016)

neroden said:


> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> > Solutions? Sell twice as much food without raising labor costs.
> ...


So you are suggesting that Amtrak shouldn't offer a side salad on the dinner menu?

Even a Logan's Roadhouse or an O'Charleys (far from a "Fancy Restaurant") offer salads with the meals.


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## Alexandria Nick (Jan 22, 2016)

The only thing that truly bothers me is lack of variety. I don't expect a five page menu on a given trip. That's unreasonable and impractical in a contained vessel with minimal staff. Its that its the _same things_ every trip on seemingly every train.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 22, 2016)

NETrainfan said:


> The breakfast was very good, the lunch good, and the dinner was good. The entrees were well cooked and hot. The vegetables were good and the desserts were too good (cheesecake). We have traveled Amtrak for over 20 years and have enjoyed the food...As long as there is drinking water available, we will take the train!


It honestly sounds like your criteria are so low that it's virtually impossible for Amtrak to disappoint you. If the food got better or worse would you even notice or care?


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 22, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Manny T said:
> ...


For that matter you can get a pretty decent Side Salad at McDonald's for $1.


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## wtsherman100 (Jan 22, 2016)

So, anyone that doesn't agree with the notion that Amtrak food is all crap, all the time has no taste and no standards?? Sad....


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## willem (Jan 22, 2016)

Alexandria Nick said:


> The only thing that truly bothers me is lack of variety. I don't expect a five page menu on a given trip. That's unreasonable and impractical in a contained vessel with minimal staff. Its that its the _same things_ every trip on seemingly every train.


Yes, that is a problem.
Some years ago, different trains had different menues, often with specialities related to areas served, like catfish on the City of New Orleans. (Oh, the ignominy of that fall from greatness!) Someone traveling on the same western long distance train might have two (or three, on the Texas Eagle or Sunset LImited of the time) days of the same menu, but it would change if the traveler was fortunate enough to continue on a different train.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 22, 2016)

rrdude said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Food trucks don't make fresh food. Most of it is prepared (or partially prepared) well in advance and basically reheated. They all have kitchen facilities in a permanent location.
> ...


So, if you, say, order the chili, they always start from scratch making it for you?

At least the food trucks around here, the have their food ready to be served, immediately, when you order. Their business model it to serve food to people as quickly as possible, processing long lines quickly.


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## niemi24s (Jan 22, 2016)

wtsherman100 said:


> So, anyone that doesn't agree with the notion that Amtrak food is all crap, all the time has no taste and no standards?? Sad....


Don't forget that some members of this forum seem to travel Amtrak so frequently they have a different perspective from a schmuck like me who only travels every year or so. For me it's a genuine treat. For some others I think it's a chance to add material to their ever-expanding dossiers on each train. Just my 2¢ worth.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 22, 2016)

I know that the "Roach Coaches" that operate here in Austin have prepared in advance food.

What has changed is the "High end" food trucks with gourmet chow that are restaurants on wheels, actually cook some food to order, but @ higher prices than the standard food trucks.

Well never see the Golden Days of Gourmet Food in the Diner return, but hopefully we'll at least get back to what we had a couple of years ago which, IMO, was the best Amtrak Food since the the early 70s when Heritage Diners still had experienced food service Crews that turned out great food with excellent service.

And remember, one paid for what they ate and drank in addition to their Rail Fare and accommodation charges but it was Worth it! Such is not the case now with the race to the bottom started by Mica and Boardman! YMMV


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## JoeBas (Jan 22, 2016)

In light of the news about the permanent de-fooding of the Silver Star, I propose a thread title change:

"why can't food be"


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 22, 2016)

wtsherman100 said:


> So, anyone that doesn't agree with the notion that Amtrak food is all crap, all the time has no taste and no standards?? Sad....


Those are your words but let's review for a moment. Poster implies they've never had a single bad meal in twenty years, even though the food quality itself has varied considerably. Poster also implies that temperature is apparently the primary concern and indicates that serving water alone is sufficient to keep them coming back. Does that sound like someone who has any chance of ever being disappointed by poor quality food? I guess if your primary concern is never being served raw food you can't do much better than a precooked-frozen-reheated dining process like Amtrak. That being said you still won't ever see me claim that every Amtrak meal I've had was bad. Not only would that sound completely unbelievable, it would also be categorically false. In fact I'd be embarrassed to openly flaunt a perfect record in either direction.


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## Tony in Ann Arbor (Jan 23, 2016)

"In a given year, take 2012, the food served aboard Amtrak LD trains cost $59.8 mil and generated revenues of $63.5 mil. That's a $3.7 mil profit, right? Wrong."

I find it very hard to believe the two numbers wirh a margin of a bit less than 6%. I am reasonably certain that none of the steaks I have consumed on Amtrak trains (most of which have been fine) cost more than $10 yet sold for $20 or more. The Angus Burger with beverage cannot cost more than $4 and sells for $11 or more. I think Amtrak's cost allocations are once again distorting the numbers needed to make a better analysis. At a minimum, we need to know the definition of cost.


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## neroden (Jan 23, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> So you are suggesting that Amtrak shouldn't offer a side salad on the dinner menu?


I'm distinguishing between a side salad (which I absolutely support) and a salad served prior to the main course. Until recently Amtrak served the salads ahead of the main course, waited for you to finish the salad, took the salad away before serving the main course.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 23, 2016)

PerRock said:


> No one here has probably seen the UK-version of Kitchen Nightmares with Ramsay; however over there in the show he much more concerned with the quality of the food keeping prices down and customers up rather then the emotional baggage they tout here in the US version. I'd love to see him do a UK-style Nightmares on Amtrak!
> 
> peter


Amtrak needs Gordon Ramsey. I suspect the current "chefs" are extremely limited in what they are allowed to envision for the train and I would even venture to say they may not actually ride for any long period of time.



NETrainfan said:


> How can Amtrak provide budget sensible food service in the future?
> 
> Is the food service just too costly for Amtrak at this time? Is it really making such a big difference in the big budget picture?
> 
> ...


Given the economics, the congressional mandate and the lack of equipment needed to support a full dining car, I think the line is clearly drawn. It is my opinion that Amtrak is looking less at the end to end rider vs the medium to short distance rider. In other words, the person that MAY eat one meal versus the person who will be in the position to eat 3-5 meals.



JoeBas said:


> In light of the news about the permanent de-fooding of the Silver Star, I propose a thread title change:
> 
> "why can't food be"



Indeed. However, I have to ask myself: Would I rather have a cheaper room with no food or an expensive room with lackluster options? I'd pick the former and try to have a pizza delivered at a stop!



Tony in Ann Arbor said:


> "In a given year, take 2012, the food served aboard Amtrak LD trains cost $59.8 mil and generated revenues of $63.5 mil. That's a $3.7 mil profit, right? Wrong."
> 
> I find it very hard to believe the two numbers wirh a margin of a bit less than 6%. I am reasonably certain that none of the steaks I have consumed on Amtrak trains (most of which have been fine) cost more than $10 yet sold for $20 or more. The Angus Burger with beverage cannot cost more than $4 and sells for $11 or more. I think Amtrak's cost allocations are once again distorting the numbers needed to make a better analysis. At a minimum, we need to know the definition of cost.


Remember, it is not just the labor on the train. Someone orders the food and places an order to someone who itemizes the food, delivers to a location where it is once again itemized, loaded, counted, served (or not served) at which point someone unloads it, itemizes it, stores it.....etc etc.

There are so many hands involved and unlike a restaurant which can send people home or call in extra people as needed, the train has to carry its staff for the ride, which leads to accommodations ,etc. All of this adds up.

This is why it is likely Amtrak is trying things that will reduce how many hands are in the pot. If the trains were more reliable, you could have the cooking staff detrain and pick up other trains en route. Additionally, food stops were proposed years ago. However, reliability killed that program before it even got off the ground. However, better internet access and things like GPS have made the prospect less risky, Perhaps this concept will return.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 23, 2016)

I can see a Market fast developing for Box Meals to be sold on the platforms at extended *Star* stops.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 23, 2016)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I can see a Market fast developing for Box Meals to be sold on the platforms at extended *Star* stops.


Perhaps the passengers would go for it...for the right price.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 23, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > I can see a Market fast developing for Box Meals to be sold on the platforms at extended *Star* stops.
> ...


Provided it doesn't get over-studied to death, it will work. Amtrak makes a licensing agreement with 1 or more local firms to bring offerings to the platform and collects a percentage of sales as their vig. Much like a grouping of Food Trucks, they arrive with their offerings ready to go and packaged so they can be quickly shopped, purchased and carried back on board. That can make for a nice wide variety of quality offerings at all price points.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 23, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > No one here has probably seen the UK-version of Kitchen Nightmares with Ramsay; however over there in the show he much more concerned with the quality of the food keeping prices down and customers up rather then the emotional baggage they tout here in the US version. I'd love to see him do a UK-style Nightmares on Amtrak!
> ...


I'm not sure Gordon Ramsey (or any other celebrity chef) is needed here. The current system (source of food, cooking methods, and staffing) can be used to produce some pretty high quality results. Look at the Pacific Parlour Car for example, this past Fall I had a wonderful entree salad for lunch that was way beyond the quality of normal amtrak salads. Mixed Greens (not iceberg), Apples from Washington State, Blue Cheese, Candied Walnuts, and the usual sliced cucumbers and cherry tomatoes. This was obviously sourced from the same supplier. Likewise for Dinner the Lamb Shank and Pasta with Beechers Cheese Sauce are both very high quality entrees. The Pasta is much better than the other Amtrak Pasta Dishes I've had, and the Lamb Shank is the best dinner entree I've had on any train.

I'm sure these items cost more money. The Parlour Car has limited seatings with a limited menu so they can probably order "just enough" entrees and reduce waste compared to the full service dining car. My point though, is that the problem is not the system.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jan 23, 2016)

There is one aspect of having a dining car on the long-distance trains that I don't see mentioned here: the enjoyable conversations with a variety of interesting and intelligent people. I have met, for example, an 80-year-old journalist, a book binder (an almost lost art), and a woman who had lived on a houseboat and had been a caretaker for a house on a Florida island. This was much more interesting than sitting in my roomette and only seeing other passengers at the WAS engine change, and, to me, it is the most important aspect of having a dining car. As we become a society where fewer and fewer people actually talk with each other, I think this is something that needs to be preserved. I would be willing to pay for meals as a sleeper car passenger, but I think the dining car and meals need to be there.

In general, I will agree with NE Trainfan about the food. I have always found it acceptable, if not inspiring. However, full confession here: I can barely boil water, think the microwave is one of the best inventions ever, and consider overcooked Brussels sprouts a delicacy, so what do I know? 

I am an expert on desserts and breakfast, however (my two favorite things to eat), and I think the dining car breakfast is okay, but not great, and that the new "cheesecake" is dreadful.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 23, 2016)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > OlympianHiawatha said:
> ...


It may work. On the other hand it may also end up like ELP where local sellers are prevented from using the platform which requires through passengers to leave the immediate area and potentially risk missing the train in order to buy anything. Personally I support local sales but I'd be surprised if Amtrak entered into any formal agreements. Not to mention that if this becomes a nationwide issue many trains don't keep schedules closely enough to make it worthwhile for most sellers to bother.


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## NETrainfan (Jan 24, 2016)

Well, we certainly enjoy good food. My comment was on our experience alone and one can see the trains we've been on in the signature.

It is just our experience that the food has been fairly good on Amtrak- in the dining car- over the years. This is very subjective as are many comments.

When we first ate in an Amtrak dining car the food exceeded our expectations and has continued to. Expectations is the key word.

Our criteria for acceptable food is: clean, well-cooked, nourishing, and that hot meals are hot.

Taste is important and highly individual. We really liked the crab cakes for instance. Some don't.

Good to read that some other Amtrak riders are ok with the food. Sure it can be improved- but at what cost?


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## NETrainfan (Jan 24, 2016)

Oh- and to the comments about how impossible it is to have "enjoyed" Amtrak's meals over the years- it is often the luck of the draw

when choosing from a menu. If we had experienced meals that were not good- I would have said so.


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## blondninja (Jan 24, 2016)

As much as I love Amtrak, the dining car has long been a joke. I could care less if they cut the cars and lower the prices.

First, service is often abysmal. I stopped tipping because those staff wouldn't survive a week in a real restaurant. Sometimes it's good but more often than not, my experience has been dire.

Food wise, the food sucks. It's basically frozen food. If you like that so be it. The latest new menu, by example has Amy's branded black bean enchiladas. The menu says nothing about having tofu in it. I have a soy allergy. As I started eating it I suspected tofu so I asked the waitress. She says she didn't think so. And walked away. Didn't think so? I asked her to find out as I would get very sick. She asks the cook. Cook, and the should say "chef" in quotes as its about the Same as me calling myself a chef, opening box putting in convection oven, says no.

Guess what? I get sick the next day. A look at Amtrak food facts says it has tofu. But the menu didn't and the crew couldn't even be knowledgable about the five items on their "extensive" menu.

Another time I started getting sick off the angus burger. Look at food facts and look on the menu. 100% pure beef it says. At a layover in Portland I saw the empty box with ingredient label being tossed. Tons of fillers. I complained to Amtrak saying there's no point having a food facts website for people with allergies if it's incorrect. Their reply was that thus change suppliers from time to time.

If they weren't a quasi government organization they'd be sued and there would be BBB complaints and investigations.

The whole idea of walking the train to take reservations is lame. Install iPads or have people order or preorder from their smart phone.

Have menu options on the screen. Let them eat whenever they want selecting open seating times. Expand service like a normal restaurant instead of 3 to 4 hours then closing.

I say good riddance to the whole dining car model.


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## niemi24s (Jan 24, 2016)

I think Amtrak should think seriously about using food as an educational tool by having more diverse local/ethnic foods on the menu. F'rinstance, why not offer lutefisk on the Empire Builder when in the Wisconsin-Minnesota area? I still have vivid memories of Grandmother fixing it when I was a little kid. Those not familiar with this Nordic-Scandinavian delicacy can get some feeling for what it's like from paragraph 101.58(2)j2f of the Wisconsin Employees' Right To Know statute... http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/101/I/58 ...which states " 2. "Toxic substance" does not include: f. Lutefisk.".

We Michigan residents have no similar protection under the law and must resort to measures such as this (it's also available in tan):


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## Ryan (Jan 24, 2016)

blondninja said:


> If they weren't a quasi government organization they'd be sued and there would be BBB complaints and investigations.


What specifically about Amtrak makes this impossible?


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## Big Iron (Jan 24, 2016)

The link below is for the BBB Amtrak page. Looks like there have been plenty of complaints filed. I didn't dig through for food related complaints but thought others might be interested in looking at the site.

http://www.bbb.org/washington-dc-eastern-pa/business-reviews/railroads/amtrak-in-washington-dc-2434/


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## blondninja (Jan 24, 2016)

Both interesting points. I guess I just figured after Amtrak was dismissive to my complaints, I just let it go and am more careful about what I eat there in the future knowing I can't trust what they print as it could change.


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## Big Iron (Jan 24, 2016)

blondninja said:


> Both interesting points. I guess I just figured after Amtrak was dismissive to my complaints, I just let it go and am more careful about what I eat there in the future knowing I can't trust what they print as it could change.


You have a legitimate beef about the list of food ingredients provided by Amtrak being inadequate. There have been a number of threads/posts related to its inadequacies.


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## Radvlad (Jan 24, 2016)

Is the food on Amtrak like airline food where it is made off site, chilled and then brought on board to be heated up? Or is it actually cooked on board?


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## jebr (Jan 24, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> I think Amtrak should think seriously about using food as an educational tool by having more diverse local/ethnic foods on the menu. F'rinstance, why not offer lutefisk on the Empire Builder when in the Wisconsin-Minnesota area? I still have vivid memories of Grandmother fixing it when I was a little kid. Those not familiar with this Nordic-Scandinavian delicacy can get some feeling for what it's like from paragraph 101.58(2)j2f of the Wisconsin Employees' Right To Know statute... http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/101/I/58 ...which states " *2.* "Toxic substance" does not include: *f.* Lutefisk.".


Fish jello that makes the entire train smell like cod and lye.

How...appetizing?

I say keep it for the church basement potlucks and fundraisers.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 24, 2016)

Radvlad said:


> Is the food on Amtrak like airline food where it is made off site, chilled and then brought on board to be heated up? Or is it actually cooked on board?


Kinda in the middle... It's what you get at a lot of chain restaurants like Applebee's. The food is Mostly pre-prepared and then heated on board, usually in a convection oven. 
Several items are "grilled" to order. But what that means I'm not sure. For example, is the steak actually raw before it hits the grill? Or has it been pre-cooked partially, and then grilled to desired done-ness? Same for the Salmon and other fish.Crab Cakes im sure come pre made and grilled.

The eggs are scrambled to order, or at least they were last time I rode in a heritage diner and could see in to the kitchen! (Within 2 years).


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## SarahZ (Jan 24, 2016)

blondninja said:


> The whole idea of walking the train to take reservations is lame. Install iPads or have people order or preorder from their smart phone.


How do we do this on trains that 1) don't have wi-fi and 2) travel through many areas where you have little to no cell service?

Also, not everyone has a smartphone. Those that do not may not be familiar with operating an in-room iPad.


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## niemi24s (Jan 24, 2016)

jebr said:


> Fish jello that makes the entire train smell like cod and lye.


I just thought it would give the food snoots something to _really_ gripe about!


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## jebr (Jan 25, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Fish jello that makes the entire train smell like cod and lye.
> ...


Of course, knowing Amtrak, they'd forget to bring enough melted butter on board. h34r:


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## jebr (Jan 25, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> blondninja said:
> 
> 
> > The whole idea of walking the train to take reservations is lame. Install iPads or have people order or preorder from their smart phone.
> ...


Wi-fi would need to be installed throughout the train. If that was done, however, the reservations/ordering system could be hosted on-board and not require a call out to the internet to make the reservation. (In fact, should on-board ordering/reservations/etc. be done, this would be the smart way to do so.)

Those that don't know how to use iPads could either have the SCA/coach attendant make the reservation for them, or simply have the option of electronic reservations be only an option (and the dining car attendant still goes through and takes reservations physically as well.) It would actually make a lot of sense to have some sort of tablet ordering option tableside, at least to augment the wait staff in the dining car. I've noticed when I've used the tablets at Applebees there seems to be a lot less wasted time waiting for a server to come and take our order or have us pay at the end. Someone shouldn't be required to use the tablet if they prefer to interact with the wait staff, but I think there'd be enough of a benefit to those that want to use such a system to make it worthwhile to include in whatever new POS system Amtrak gets.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 25, 2016)

Radvlad said:


> Is the food on Amtrak like airline food where it is made off site, chilled and then brought on board to be heated up? Or is it actually cooked on board?


 Almost everything is prepared off site and then brought on board in a frozen state. The only prepared from scratch Breakfast ingredient are the eggs, which are only allowed in scrambled form or as part of an omelet. There is not a single Lunch option that is cooked to order. The only cooked to order options for Dinner are the steak and the fish. That's it. Everything else is cooked days/weeks/months prior to departure.



NETrainfan said:


> Our criteria for acceptable food is: clean, well-cooked, nourishing, and that hot meals are hot. Taste is important and highly individual. We really liked the crab cakes for instance.


 I don't doubt that you're highly impressed with Amtrak double-cooked frozen meals that are virtually impossible to undercook since they didn't start the trip as raw ingredients to begin with. Although that type of preparation also ensures that any digestible nourishment has long since been processed beyond nutritional relevance. I'm actually kind of surprised that twenty years of meals have all been hot however. I've certainly received more than a few lukewarm and room temperature meals over the years.



niemi24s said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Fish jello that makes the entire train smell like cod and lye.
> ...


 Lutefisk has become so overused as a joke compared to actual consumption that it barely even registers as a genuine delicacy anymore, not unlike Rocky Mountain Oysters. If you can handle Lutefisk then perhaps you'd join me trying an _actual_ delicacy like Durian. Although unfortunately for Amtrak they would probably be forced to remove all cloth and carpeting shortly thereafter.


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## andersone (Jan 25, 2016)

I think we need to bring Fred Harvey back from the dead,,,,,,


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## jis (Jan 25, 2016)

Fred Harvey's legacy lives on as part of Xanterra Parks and Resorts today.


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## neroden (Jan 25, 2016)

blondninja said:


> Another time I started getting sick off the angus burger. Look at food facts and look on the menu. 100% pure beef it says. At a layover in Portland I saw the empty box with ingredient label being tossed. Tons of fillers. I complained to Amtrak saying there's no point having a food facts website for people with allergies if it's incorrect. Their reply was that thus change suppliers from time to time.
> 
> If they weren't a quasi government organization they'd be sued and there would be BBB complaints and investigations.


As someone who has an allergy to something relatively obscure, so I *have to see the ingredients list*, I absolutely support lawsuits over this, if someone is willing to spend the money (I'm not). Amtrak's refusal to identify ingredients is reprehensible; it's probably an ADA violation; and it's certainly contrary to California law.


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## fillyjonk (Jan 25, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> blondninja said:
> 
> 
> > The whole idea of walking the train to take reservations is lame. Install iPads or have people order or preorder from their smart phone.
> ...


I don't have a smartphone, so I guess that would mean, "No soup for you!"?

Why not have a space on the order, when you order tickets, to put down the preferred dinner reservation times? Or do they not know even a few weeks out which seatings they will have?


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jan 25, 2016)

I am so, so glad to hear there is someone else besides me who doesn't have a smartphone! 

I like the personal interaction during a trip of someone coming through to take reservations. Also, sometimes when I have boarded right before dinner, there is a dinner reservation slip in my roomette. I love that--it's a nice reminder of a more civilized time--like a written invitation to a party!

However, going through the train is extra work for the dining crew, so I also like fillyjonk's suggestion of writing down preferred times when you book tickets.


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## NETrainfan (Jan 25, 2016)

Yesterday I was reading some of the trip reports here and was interested to read the food comments. Indeed, there are many people who like certain Amtrak meals and there are people who express their disappointment about some entrees. That is the way of opinions.

Can't imagine why a poster would take a personal experience of Amtrak food and turn it into their own interpretation of that experience- and make

sweeping generalities about it. Opinion is opinion.

Yes, we have had our hot meals hot on Amtrak. If we get a meal anywhere and it is not warm enough, we ask for it to be reheated.

Yes, we have had good experiences with Amtrak food- that is our opinion and our fact only and further, we respect the opinions of others which is a good thing to do on a forum.


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## andersone (Jan 25, 2016)

I know full well of the legacy of Fred Harvey, we are taking the Chief to the Grand Canyon in May. If you want the full story I might suggest reading "Appetite for America- Fred Harvey and the Business of Civilizing the West by Steven Fried. It's a really good read if you like a good business history


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## fillyjonk (Jan 25, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I am so, so glad to hear there is someone else besides me who doesn't have a smartphone!
> 
> I like the personal interaction during a trip of someone coming through to take reservations. Also, sometimes when I have boarded right before dinner, there is a dinner reservation slip in my roomette. I love that--it's a nice reminder of a more civilized time--like a written invitation to a party!
> 
> However, going through the train is extra work for the dining crew, so I also like fillyjonk's suggestion of writing down preferred times when you book tickets.


I have been somewhat annoyed on a few recent trips where, in the dining car, I wound up seated with other people who only wanted to play around on their smartphones. Oh, I get taking a moment to text a relative, or once, I had a guy show me how he had an app that would show the current speed we were going at. But to sit and play Candy Crush while there is another person there? My parents would have taught me that was rude. Well, if Candy Crush had existed when I was a kid. (I was not allowed to read a book at the dinner table, which I suppose is the 1970s equivalent)

Then again, I was also once at a table where two other diners got into a political argument, so maybe there are things worse than smartphones at the table....


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## BoulderCO (Jan 25, 2016)

Yes, the "reservation" system for coach passengers wanting to eat in the dining car needs work. I'm a "wanderer", and spend a fair amount of time moving between my coach seat and the observation/cafe car. When it is rumored that dining reservations are being taken I'm always very alert so that I don't miss out. Even so, about 50% of the time I never see anyone coming by to take reservations.

I'd like to see a signup sheet or a computerized terminal right at the end of the observation car at the entrance to the dining car. Most all coach passengers get to this area at least every few hours and could easily choose from any open tables and times. This would free up dining car personnel from the need to walk the train.


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## Manny T (Jan 25, 2016)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the oatmeal at breakfast is cooked on board. I say that because once I ordered oatmeal and the waiter told me they were out. I must have looked so unhappy that he came back some time later with hot oatmeal and told me the chef just made up a new batch.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 25, 2016)

fillyjonk said:


> I have been somewhat annoyed on a few recent trips where, in the dining car, I wound up seated with other people who only wanted to play around on their smartphones. Oh, I get taking a moment to text a relative, or once, I had a guy show me how he had an app that would show the current speed we were going at. But to sit and play Candy Crush while there is another person there? My parents would have taught me that was rude. Well, if Candy Crush had existed when I was a kid. (I was not allowed to read a book at the dinner table, which I suppose is the 1970s equivalent)
> 
> Then again, I was also once at a table where two other diners got into a political argument, so maybe there are things worse than smartphones at the table....


I personally would rather see someone play on their smart phone than to sit their silently and make it clear they don't wish to converse. That to me is the most awkward ever. Since I have many different interests, including trains, travel, and history, it's usually pretty easy to strike up a conversation with people, but sometime it's just not meant to be.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 26, 2016)

NETrainfan said:


> Yesterday I was reading some of the trip reports here and was interested to read the food comments. Indeed, there are many people who like certain Amtrak meals and there are people who express their disappointment about some entrees. That is the way of opinions. Can't imagine why a poster would take a personal experience of Amtrak food and turn it into their own interpretation of that experience- and make sweeping generalities about it.


Here in this thread the OP is asking why the food can't be better. The entirely of your contribution to the OP's inquiry has been that the food is already as good as it will ever need to be and that water alone would suffice anyhow. Which makes me wonder why you're even in this thread to begin with. Perhaps I've been missing the point and feeding the troll instead of feeding the thread.



Manny T said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the oatmeal at breakfast is cooked on board. I say that because once I ordered oatmeal and the waiter told me they were out. I must have looked so unhappy that he came back some time later with hot oatmeal and told me the chef just made up a new batch.


We're talking about adding hot water to dried grains, correct? Perhaps it's just semantics but I don't consider oatmeal to be a freshly prepared cooked-to-order dish.


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## blondninja (Jan 26, 2016)

In regards to ordering via smart phone, if you have ever flown virgin America they have touch screens on the back of your seat Which is how one orders food and beverage,both for purchase and complimentary.

Of course nothing like that would probably happen on Amtrak until new sleeping cars are delivered system wide and they aren't even all on order yet. Or at least new renovations to existing cars.

By getting reservations and items in advance it seems they'd better be able to gage items since I've also often experienced out of stocks. As someone who doesn't eat red meat and has the food allergies, it limits what I can order with such a small menu to begin with, and then if they are sold out of some items it makes it particularly difficult.

I've sat down many a time and then been told they are out of the chicken or the fish, for example.


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## NETrainfan (Jan 26, 2016)

Well, I never said the Amtrak food was as good as it ever could be. I only said that

our personal experience of the food has always been good. Please note that I didn't say very good or excellent. And please note

that I said we would travel Amtrak even it only water was available and not meals. Perhaps we have enjoyed our Amtrak food experiences because we are not "consummate cynics" but rather appreciative travelers.

If you read some of the trip reports, you will see that many Amtrak riders like many of the Amtrak meals.

So it is important for those of us who have had good experiences to speak up. We shouldn't be thwarted by one person's

sweeping judgments.

If one cannot accept another person's opinion- why not just go on to another subject instead of being impolite?


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## NETrainfan (Jan 26, 2016)

Train2104 said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> > Simple, because the government doesn't take Amtrak seriously, despite the fact more and more people are riding it. They also don't have the guts to properly fund it. I would say something much worst then that, but I'm not looking to get in trouble. Give Amtrak $10 billion a year in subsidies and I guarantee it you'll see a different system and better food being supplied.
> ...


For us, this is the place of better food in the realm of Amtrak's future. There are many other things to be considered before the food quality.


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## niemi24s (Jan 26, 2016)

NETrainfan said:


> If one cannot accept another person's opinion- why not just go on to another subject instead of being impolite?


You don't seem to understand. Such is the sworn duty of a self-appointed SM-62.


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## jis (Jan 26, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> NETrainfan said:
> 
> 
> > If one cannot accept another person's opinion- why not just go on to another subject instead of being impolite?
> ...


Yup. The MO is tantrums shall be thrown whether it makes any sense or not and all that will be justified to self saying it is a positive contribution from the devil and therefore justified. I have just learned to ignore the blather when it passes a certain threshold of nonsense, and carry on with life and let the devil take care of the rest  
Then again there are occasions when there are excellent contributions too!


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## sldispatcher (Jan 27, 2016)

Isn't some of this a shell game though?

If dining is included with your sleeper fare, they can just move dollars from the sleeper fare over to the dining budget line? Not that I have personally looked into it, but many on here point to the convoluted accounting methods Amtrak uses.

Personally, I look at airline catering kitchens and agree with many on here that Amtrak is picking the meals that get served. Airlines choose what they are going to serve First Class (I.e. sleeper) or sell to economy class ( coach). The airline food has started to be kicked up a few notches lately as competitive pressures mount. It is not by some miraculous event that the kitchens were able to make better food, but rather a choice by airlines to select higher quality items.

Labor prices can kill any business if left unchecked and out of control. Does someone giving up family time/travel away from home/long hours need to be compensated for that? Yes. But at what cost to the traveling public?

I am one of those that wonders if Roomettes should be getting full dining privs. Should it be more of a $'s off voucher used to purchase? Seems like a larger portion of the roomette fare would have to go towards dining costs than from the Bedroom folks. But that's just my practical self thinking that. That is revenue slippage.

Not sure why the political bullets always have to come out. The problem starts at "home". Amtrak could take a step towards "fixing" this issue next week if they wanted to do so. Higher prices, sleeper revenue allocation, and food quality improvement should triumph over the "cut to break even profitability".


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## fillyjonk (Jan 27, 2016)

sldispatcher said:


> Isn't some of this a shell game though?
> 
> If dining is included with your sleeper fare, they can just move dollars from the sleeper fare over to the dining budget line? Not that I have personally looked into it, but many on here point to the convoluted accounting methods Amtrak uses.
> 
> ...


But what about numbers of people per room? I always travel alone so I get a roomette, because bedrooms are too expensive for one person. So I wind up getting, say, 25% off my diner meal, while a bedroom with two parents and a child in it get free meals for all of them? And what about those who use AGR points? I suspect it would make for more difficult accounting and frustration for the dining car crew.

I don't know. I'm generally mostly okay with the diner food (then again, I tend to get the steak). I think I'd be okay with being asked to pay for my meal IF the meals were really super good. (If it came to that? I'd like to see more choice and variety). What I DON'T want is to see the diners replaced with, say, a "Subway" branded car where you have to buy a Subway sandwich. Or a McDonald's car. That would actually make me less want to travel LD on Amtrak, or to try to bring my own food.


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## sldispatcher (Jan 27, 2016)

fillyjonk said:


> But what about numbers of people per room? I always travel alone so I get a roomette, because bedrooms are too expensive for one person. So I wind up getting, say, 25% off my diner meal, while a bedroom with two parents and a child in it get free meals for all of them? And what about those who use AGR points? I suspect it would make for more difficult accounting and frustration for the dining car crew.
> 
> 
> I don't know. I'm generally mostly okay with the diner food (then again, I tend to get the steak). I think I'd be okay with being asked to pay for my meal IF the meals were really super good. (If it came to that? I'd like to see more choice and variety). What I DON'T want is to see the diners replaced with, say, a "Subway" branded car where you have to buy a Subway sandwich. Or a McDonald's car. That would actually make me less want to travel LD on Amtrak, or to try to bring my own food.


In my opinion, you either raise incremental revenue or the service will eventually be so degraded it will flatline. As you say, quite poignantly later on in your post above, you don't want the diner replaced by a Subway branded car..AND you'd actually be willing to fork over a few dollars for improved food.

At the end of the day, there are obviously many factors that play into this equation:

labor costs

food prep and transport on a moving platform

questions of revenue allocation from the sleeper buckets into food and beverage

internal corporate culture

lack of congressional vision

quality concerns

incremental revenue streams almost non-existent

People will pay $6 for a coke and $4 for a small bag of popcorn after paying $8 to get into a movie. They'll do it (albeit complain about it) as an expected part of the experience. As far as I'm concerned, the prices in the dining car are TOO LOW relative to the fixed costs of the high end labor and rolling restaurant that has to be maintained. Give them the experience, and they'll pay for it. They'll moan, but they'll pay for it.


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## jis (Jan 28, 2016)

When I had the option to travel by Sleeper (Slumbercoach) and choose the meals that I took in the Diner pay as you go, I tended to take one meal per day in the Diner.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 28, 2016)

MikefromCrete said:


> Congressman Mica doesn't want "taxpayers" subsidizing "rich" Amtrak passengers.


I recall reading about one of the encounters between the good Congressman and Amtrak on this issue, and my impression was that their real target was the fact that Amtrak food service workers are actually paid a living wage with benefits, which is perhaps one of the reasons why the Amtrak dining service loses the money they do while actual restaurants can serve really good food at the same prices that Amtrak charges.

Line cooks -- in New York!! -- are paid $10 an hour, waitstaff doesn't even have to be paid minimum wage, they're supposed to make it up on tips. And sometimes they aren't guaranteed a full workweek, or at least regular hours so that they can assemble a couple of part-time jobs and earn a living. I'm particularly sensitive to this because my daughter is now gainfully(?) underemployed in the food service industry, so I have learned how it works.

The reason Amtrak food service staff earns a living wage is because they're unionized, and Congressman Mica's political party has apparently decided on an electoral strategy that involves breaking unions (which tend to support the political party in opposition to Congressman Mica's political party) instead of trying to attract union voters.

There's probably also higher fixed costs to operate a dining car, as opposed to, say, a food truck. And Amtrak could also use some help from restaurant professionals on ways to increase revenue. (Maybe they could get chef Gordon Ramsay of "Kitchen Nightmares" to do a reality show  ). But I think the wage differential is probably a big reason for the Great Amtrak Food Fight. Nice thing to think about every time you eat out and have tasty affordable food. I, for one, always tip well, even if the service isn't perfect. The help works hard and deserves it.


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## blondninja (Jan 28, 2016)

I agree and always tip 20% at restaurants. But not on Amtrak. Oftentimes, I find service dismissive at sometimes almost militant depending on who it is. I had the LSA roll his eyes at me on the sunset a couple of weeks ago. These clowns wouldn't last a week in a "real" job.


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## jebr (Jan 28, 2016)

Being a dining car attendant is a "real" job.


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## Radvlad (Jan 28, 2016)

blondninja said:


> I agree and always tip 20% at restaurants. But not on Amtrak. Oftentimes, I find service dismissive at sometimes almost militant depending on who it is. I had the LSA roll his eyes at me on the sunset a couple of weeks ago. These clowns wouldn't last a week in a "real" job.


Perhaps it's your attitude which causes you to get bad service? And if you "refuse" to eat red meat and you have food allergies, then perhaps you should take some responsibility and bring your own food? The majority of people on the train do eat red meat.

And your clown comment says a lot about how you view others.


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## SarahZ (Jan 28, 2016)

blondninja said:


> I agree and always tip 20% at restaurants. But not on Amtrak. Oftentimes, I find service dismissive at sometimes almost militant depending on who it is. I had the LSA roll his eyes at me on the sunset a couple of weeks ago. *These clowns wouldn't last a week in a "real" job.*


I'd like to know what you consider a "real" job.

Please. Enlighten us.


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## Ryan (Jan 28, 2016)




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## neroden (Jan 28, 2016)

MARC Rider said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Congressman Mica doesn't want "taxpayers" subsidizing "rich" Amtrak passengers.
> ...


You might be right. This might explain all the shell games and dishonest accounting perpetrated by Mica -- if he believes this but doesn't want to say this outright, that would explain why he makes up nonsense.
Honestly, if Mica said "Amtrak food service workers are overpaid featherbedded union goons" I wouldn't *agree* but I would *respect* Mica for being forthright about his opinion. Instead he talks nonsense about $80 burgers and I have no respect for that whatsoever.



> waitstaff doesn't even have to be paid minimum wage, they're supposed to make it up on tips.


We've been trying to get that law changed for decades because it's ridiculous. According to the law, if the tips don't actually bring them up to minimum wage, the employer *must* pay them the difference, but this seems to be practically impossible to enforce. Thankfully there seems to be some traction towards removing this ludicrous loophole in minimum wage law.


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## jis (Jan 29, 2016)

Since Mica's party might Whig out after this election it should be entertaining all around to see what happens to the feckless Congresscritters.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 29, 2016)

The Donald will build a Giant Kitchen and make Mexico and China pay for it!


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## blondninja (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't know where you live, but There's lots of people who don't eat red meat. And no, it's not my attitude so don't make comments please, not having been at the situation and suggest it was me. You don't roll your eyes at a customer-period. In non Union customer service employment people would be let go over that.

At the same seating a gentleman at the table across for me asked what the special was. True, they had announced over the PA what the special was before they went around for reservations, but the waitress said more than once, "didn't you hear?" When he asked. She knew what he was asking but thought it funny to not repeat the special.

Amtrak employees in my opinion more often than not are rude, at least on the west coast long distance routes and they wouldn't be in their jobs in customer service positions in other (non Union) businesses.

I've had great service too, but overall it seems to be hit or miss: some exceptionally good and over and. Above and others just really bad.

Regardless, this thread has been about food and tipping and how it can be made better. These are my opinions.

I still will travel by train and I hope Amtrak adds new routes, I will continue to support Amtrak etc. But it's difficult to want to tip 20% of your meal for surly service when you've just spent $$$$ on a bedroom. To me, I generally travel in the deluxe bedroom now and they aren't inexpensive. Compare to any other form of "first class" travel and service levels tend to be different.

Also, as was said one must acknowledge how much they are paid. They are paid not just a living wage but a very good, some would say even upper middle class wage. They don't need the tips to live off of as would be the case in a regular restaurant.

I really don't know what else to say. If the dining car is gone and the prices lowered, as I said before, I think I'll be fine.

The comments about Gordon Ramsey

Coming in are good ones. I just feel they could also benefit from some company like a Disney coming in for some customer service training too. I don't know why it Seems to be really focused on the long distance trains. I take the surf liner weekly and have only once seen an issue on there, and I know it's funded by the State but I believe the employees are still Amtrak.

If you've all not had those experiences, I say good. It can ruin an otherwise nice experience, especially when you're traveling with someone on the train long distance and it's their first time.


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## blondninja (Jan 29, 2016)

There's also, I think, something to be said for how long your trip is. I just gave the sunset example as it was my most recent, but that was 2.5 hour trip for me, so no big deal really.

When you're on the train for three days and nights each way, as I was over the holiday period, between service, out of stocks (they ran out of all tea one day into the trip, for example), it can get old no matter how much you like a particular item.

That's one of the biggest losses to me in standardizing the menu, with no variance on route or direction. I'm curious why they even make the separate menus on the routes now when there's no discernible difference. One would think it'd be another cut to save printing separate menus.


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## tricia (Jan 29, 2016)

blondninja said:


> I don't know where you live, but There's lots of people who don't eat red meat. And no, it's not my attitude so don't make comments please, not having been at the situation and suggest it was me. You don't roll your eyes at a customer-period. In non Union customer service employment people would be let go over that.
> 
> At the same seating a gentleman at the table across for me asked what the special was. True, they had announced over the PA what the special was before they went around for reservations, but the waitress said more than once, "didn't you hear?" When he asked. She knew what he was asking but thought it funny to not repeat the special.
> 
> ...


I'm with blondninja on nearly all of this. (Also: avoiding red meat is really not at all unusual. Can't we agree to live and let live where food preferences are concerned?)

One difference: I'm unwilling to pay a 20% tip for surly service ANYWHERE, regardless of whether I'm off the train or on it, paying for coach, roomette, or bedroom. Being mindful of the legally allowed minimum-wage evasion with land-based waitstaff, I almost never completely stiff a waiter off the train, but don't hesitate to do so if a dining car attendant is rude.

I wonder if some of the customer service problem on long-distance trains is because most of the customers on those trains aren't "regulars." It's easier to think you can get away with being rude to a customer you think you'll never see again.

For the record: I'm not anti-union, and I'm in a customer-service business myself. Most of my customers are regulars, folks I see almost every week. I'd be out of business if I started rolling my eyes at them. Amtrak, and its union, needs to retrain or weed out the rude employees.


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## NETrainfan (Jan 29, 2016)

There has been mention of paying for meals separately from sleeping car costs.

When we travel LD, we find that 2 meals per day are plenty and would like to pay per meal rather than have a sleeper/meal package.

We'd like to have a lower cost sleeper and fewer meals.

Is this realistic for the future of Amtrak?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 29, 2016)

NETrainfan said:


> There has been mention of paying for meals separately from sleeping car costs.
> 
> When we travel LD, we find that 2 meals per day are plenty and would like to pay per meal rather than have a sleeper/meal package.
> 
> ...


Yep, see the Silver Star and possibly the CONO soon! ( currently has No Chef, just heat and eat food !)


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## NETrainfan (Jan 29, 2016)

Hi- We were thinking dining room meals, Bob.

Have dining meal costs been separate from sleepers before on Amtrak?


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## blondninja (Jan 29, 2016)

They used to be separate I forget the year they were lumped together with the sleeper cost. I believe it was in the 1990's.

And I agree with you: sitting all day I can get by with breakfast and lunch and pass on dinner.


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## jis (Jan 29, 2016)

That is my biggest beef. I am forced to pay for all sorts of meals that are painful and unhealthy to partake in and have no choice about it. That is why I am relatively ambivalent about the Silver Star thing and personally I tend to select the Silver Star over Silver Meteor. I know this is contrary to the popular mythology here, but such is life.


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## NETrainfan (Jan 29, 2016)

Just wondering- if the meals were a separate cost- independent caterers could supply Amtrak with a variety of "interesting" meals

and those who wanted to pay for better quality could do so. Realistic?


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## blondninja (Jan 29, 2016)

I would love that idea.


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## JoeBas (Jan 29, 2016)

NETrainfan said:


> Just wondering- if the meals were a separate cost- independent caterers could supply Amtrak with a variety of "interesting" meals
> 
> and those who wanted to pay for better quality could do so. Realistic?


Not from a costs standpoint.


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## Palmetto (Jan 29, 2016)

American Airlines has a system for first class passengers whereby meals can be ordered on line. Is something like this feasible for ALL Amtrak passengers?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 29, 2016)

tricia said:


> blondninja said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know where you live, but There's lots of people who don't eat red meat. And no, it's not my attitude so don't make comments please, not having been at the situation and suggest it was me. You don't roll your eyes at a customer-period. In non Union customer service employment people would be let go over that.
> ...


Agreed 100%.



Palmetto said:


> American Airlines has a system for first class passengers whereby meals can be ordered on line. Is something like this feasible for ALL Amtrak passengers?


I presume you mean dining car customers on LD trains since other examples wouldn't make much sense. I believe the premise is reasonable in general but perhaps still unrealistic on Amtrak. On my trips the Amtrak staff on board the train rarely seem to have any clue what's actually stocked on their own train. So many times I've been asked what I'm having with no information beyond a vague entry in a tiny menu. When I ask extremely basic question such as what the specials are or what the "craft" beers consist of or which desserts are available in the vast majority of cases the waiter or waitress has to go and find out. Even on those occasions when they gave me an immediate answer they often get it wrong and then shrug when they bring the wrong beer or the wrong dessert. In some cases they don't even seem to know (or have not yet decided) which menu (full vs express) they'll be using until just before they begin serving. Sometimes they change the menus even after they've already handed them out. In other words it's a total cluster fork and I'd be shocked if a company like Amtrak still has the ability to fix the problem to the satisfaction of discerning customers and congressional partisans alike.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 29, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> On my trips the Amtrak staff on board the train rarely seem to have any clue what's actually stocked on their own train. So many times I've been asked what I'm having with no information beyond a vague entry in a tiny menu. When I ask extremely basic question such as what the specials are or what the "craft" beers consist of or which desserts are available in the vast majority of cases the waiter or waitress has to go and find out. Even on those occasions when they gave me an immediate answer they often get it wrong and then shrug when they bring the wrong beer or the wrong dessert. In some cases they don't even seem to know (or have not yet decided) which menu (full vs express) they'll be using until just before they begin serving. Sometimes they change the menus even after they've already handed them out. In other words it's a total cluster fork and I'd be shocked if a company like Amtrak still has the ability to fix the problem to the satisfaction of discerning customers and congressional partisans alike.


The Amtrak Way (actual conversation I've witnessed on Amtrak).

Server: What to drink?

Customer: What type of wine do you have?

Server: Red or White. We only have the 2.

The VIA Rail "Canadian" Way -

Steward (not server): While your server is on the way with water for the table are there any questions regarding the wine list?

I'll let you guys guess which scenario resulted in alcohol sales! (Ok I'll just tell you.... VIA.)


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 29, 2016)

NETrainfan said:


> Just wondering- if the meals were a separate cost- independent caterers could supply Amtrak with a variety of "interesting" meals
> 
> and those who wanted to pay for better quality could do so. Realistic?


Very! Just about every airline does something like this now. Just keep the cost of the chow fairly reasonable.


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## Radvlad (Jan 29, 2016)

There was another thread where someone suggested doing airline type meals (reheat and serve). Sleeper accommodations are classified as first class. I don't think it would be cost prohibitive for Amtrak to allow people to choose their meals at the time of booking and those meals could be boarded, kept in the chiller until time to be served. I was a flight attendant for eight years and all you need is a convection oven. Typical domestic first class meal costs around 10.00 to produce. I'm not kidding. If Amtrak did this, then they could have plenty of options (vegetarian, vegan, Kosher, etc.) on board for those who want it.


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## jis (Jan 29, 2016)

At one time Sleeper accommodation was classified as First Class. That is no longer the case. If they were classified as First Class they'd be getting bonus TQPs in AGR. They don't. They are just an accommodation with flat sleeping surfaces in a private room. There is absolutely no pretensions about them being First Class.


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## Radvlad (Jan 29, 2016)

So, no opinions on food?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 29, 2016)

jis said:


> At one time Sleeper accommodation was classified as First Class. That is no longer the case. If they were classified as First Class they'd be getting bonus TQPs in AGR. They don't. They are just an accommodation with flat sleeping surfaces in a private room. There is absolutely no pretensions about them being First Class.


Amtrak sleeping compartments are certainly _priced_ as though they were First Class. Last I checked Amtrak still refers to sleeper meals as "First Class Meal Packages" on the menu. That being said with the singular exception of the Acela most examples of First Class references have indeed been erased from Amtrak operations, rolling stock, documentation and marketing. Amtrak's service standards and related terminology are often rather vague and arbitrary, so who knows what if any significance such terminology ever carried to begin with. The most obvious example of this are numerous versions of seemingly unrelated "Business Class" services that range from highly beneficial to utterly pointless.


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## Radvlad (Jan 29, 2016)

I never understood the half bottle pricing. So you really can't order a full bottle of wine?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 30, 2016)

Radvlad said:


> I never understood the half bottle pricing. So you really can't order a full bottle of wine?


Not on Amtrak! Buy your own if you want some decent Wine @ a worthwhile price!( the swill Amtrak has on offer is a joke!)


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## Ryan (Jan 30, 2016)

The bottles they serve on the train are half-sized. You can order a full bottle, but it's going to come in two half-bottles.

(Also, I've got no problem drinking it, it's decent)


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## George K (Jan 30, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Radvlad said:
> 
> 
> > I never understood the half bottle pricing. So you really can't order a full bottle of wine?
> ...


You can't bring your own wine for dinner, can you? Certainly, you can enjoy in your sleeping accommodations, but not in public.


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## Ryan (Jan 30, 2016)

Correct.

I guess you could always take your meal in the room if you really wanted your own wine with dinner.


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## Radvlad (Jan 30, 2016)

I wish you guys were going to be on the EB on my upcoming trip. Sounds like it could be a rolling party


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## George K (Jan 30, 2016)

Radvlad said:


> I wish you guys were going to be on the EB on my upcoming trip. Sounds like it could be a rolling party


Um, when's your trip?


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## HenryK (Jan 30, 2016)

As a budget oenologist of many years' standing, I can testify that the low-bidder merlots decanted on Amtrak trains are not only unpretentious and drinkable but also contain modest yet bright suggestions of diesel, subtly tinged with creosote, that goes well with bloody rare sous-vide beef. The prices aren't too bad, either; in a local restaurant this evening I paid $8 for a glass of cabernet that really should have stayed on the beach in Chile.


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## A Voice (Jan 30, 2016)

blondninja said:


> The whole idea of walking the train to take reservations is lame. Install iPads or have people order or preorder from their smart phone.
> 
> Have menu options on the screen. Let them eat whenever they want selecting open seating times. Expand service like a normal restaurant instead of 3 to 4 hours then closing.


While there is potential in the concept of 'online' ordering, having someone walk the train with menus and able to discuss the menu has advantages; You want (or should) to get more people into the diner and you'd like them to order suggested or featured items they might not choose when pre-ordering from a tablet.



fillyjonk said:


> What I DON'T want is to see the diners replaced with, say, a "Subway" branded car where you have to buy a Subway sandwich. Or a McDonald's car. That would actually make me less want to travel LD on Amtrak, or to try to bring my own food.


I think I'd take a McDonald's or Subway car if it replaced the lounge instead of the diner (and served 24 hours, ideally).



Radvlad said:


> There was another thread where someone suggested doing airline type meals (reheat and serve). Sleeper accommodations are classified as first class. I don't think it would be cost prohibitive for Amtrak to allow people to choose their meals at the time of booking and those meals could be boarded, kept in the chiller until time to be served. I was a flight attendant for eight years and all you need is a convection oven. Typical domestic first class meal costs around 10.00 to produce. I'm not kidding. If Amtrak did this, then they could have plenty of options (vegetarian, vegan, Kosher, etc.) on board for those who want it.


Pre-ordering of meals would potentially help inventory management for Amtrak, I've little doubt. But again, with pre-ordering you largely lose the opportunity for additional revenue by selling items at the time of selection. However, the real problem here is that travel reservations are often made weeks or months in advance; I'm not in the habit of deciding exactly what I want for dinner months in advance (on July 17th I'll have the chicken, fried green tomatoes, and a sweet tea....uh, no). I can't even tell you right now what I want for a bedtime snack _tonight_.

The idea of better food is not even really dependent upon a dining car (though the withdrawal of dining service from the Silver Star is indeed a mistaken idea). If the Star's lounge car menu looked more like the Acela dining menu - which certainly doesn't have a diner - it would address many of our more serious objections. Indeed, those Amfleet II lounges were ostensibly rebuilt as 'diner-lite' cars; Amtrak can do better even with the limited facilities.


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## Train2104 (Jan 30, 2016)

A Voice said:


> But again, with pre-ordering you largely lose the opportunity for additional revenue by selling items at the time of selection. However, the real problem here is that travel reservations are often made weeks or months in advance; I'm not in the habit of deciding exactly what I want for dinner months in advance (on July 17th I'll have the chicken, fried green tomatoes, and a sweet tea....uh, no). I can't even tell you right now what I want for a bedtime snack _tonight_.


Do airlines ask for passengers' meal choices on booking or on check in? If it's the former, this problem exists there too; if it's the latter Amtrak could do some kind of a pre-order discount and stock a limited quantity onboard for upsells/coach passengers.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 31, 2016)

A Voice said:


> However, the real problem here is that travel reservations are often made weeks or months in advance; I'm not in the habit of deciding exactly what I want for dinner months in advance (on July 17th I'll have the chicken, fried green tomatoes, and a sweet tea....uh, no). I can't even tell you right now what I want for a bedtime snack _tonight_.


Never been invited to a wedding?

Such many times requires you to select your meal at the time of your RSVP. Yea, it might be months in advance. And yea, once there, the "other" meal might look better than the one you selected. But we live with it, and still manage to have a good time.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 31, 2016)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > However, the real problem here is that travel reservations are often made weeks or months in advance; I'm not in the habit of deciding exactly what I want for dinner months in advance (on July 17th I'll have the chicken, fried green tomatoes, and a sweet tea....uh, no). I can't even tell you right now what I want for a bedtime snack _tonight_.
> ...



Everyone always skips over the most important detail in this type of conversation: OTP. Have you ever seen a wedding 5 hours late or the wedding "detoured' to another venue?

You can attempt to make meals stops and arrange for food in advance....but then, the train has to back up because of a switch and is now 2 hours late. Then, it follows another train and is 4 hours late. Now, you arranged food is cold, unavailable or you're hungry again since you're now on the train 6 hours longer than you anticipated. Sure, you can attempt to tough it out in the cafe car (assuming there is something you want and enough left,) but what happens to everyone boarding down line? Hopefully, you can line up more food. (KFC or Pizza anyone??)


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## jis (Jan 31, 2016)

Train2104 said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > But again, with pre-ordering you largely lose the opportunity for additional revenue by selling items at the time of selection. However, the real problem here is that travel reservations are often made weeks or months in advance; I'm not in the habit of deciding exactly what I want for dinner months in advance (on July 17th I'll have the chicken, fried green tomatoes, and a sweet tea....uh, no). I can't even tell you right now what I want for a bedtime snack _tonight_.
> ...


The one I am familiar with - Singapore Airlines lets you make menu selections at any time between when you buy the ticket and 48 hour AFAIR, before departure. After that deadline, if you have not made a selection, you get to choose from among the three or so generic menu choices on offer on the flight. This facility also was available for upper class only, not in coach back then, when I used it.


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## Radvlad (Jan 31, 2016)

American Airlines lets you select your meal at 30 days out. There are 2 selections you can choose from. Has always worked great on my trips. This way I can guarantee the entree that I want. No reason Amtrak can't do this. Again, all you need is a convection oven to reheat the meal. No reason to pay a "chef" when the dining car attendants could do this. Amtrak could carry extra meals on board for those coach passengers that want to pay for a meal.


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## Radvlad (Jan 31, 2016)

George K said:


> Radvlad said:
> 
> 
> > I wish you guys were going to be on the EB on my upcoming trip. Sounds like it could be a rolling party
> ...


Leave on the EB March 12.


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## George K (Jan 31, 2016)

Radvlad said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> > Radvlad said:
> ...


Sigh. Departing CHI on May 4. You'll have to party without me!


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## rosewood (Jan 31, 2016)

Last week on the CS I asked about the pancakes, fresh made or ore cooked. The "chef" said fresh vase and they did taste as such, very good!


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## neroden (Jan 31, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Everyone always skips over the most important detail in this type of conversation: OTP. Have you ever seen a wedding 5 hours late or the wedding "detoured' to another venue?


Actually, yes. I've seen a 5-hour-late wedding. And separately I've seen *several* weddings detoured to other venues (outdoor weddings which got rained out, mostly).
But those are other stories... NOT models you want to emulate!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 31, 2016)

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone always skips over the most important detail in this type of conversation: OTP. Have you ever seen a wedding 5 hours late or the wedding "detoured' to another venue?
> ...



That must have been some honeymoon! :giggle:


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## andersone (Feb 1, 2016)

I wish my first wedding was 43 years late


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## NETrainfan (Feb 1, 2016)

How many Amtrak jobs are lost when a dining car is removed? Are they "lost" or reassigned to another department?

Also, would some level of "self-service" be realistic in a dining car- with say one dining attendant and one kitchen manager and pre-ordered meals?


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## rrdude (Feb 1, 2016)

NETrainfan said:


> How many Amtrak jobs are lost when a dining car is removed? Are they "lost" or reassigned to another department?
> 
> Also, would some level of "self-service" be realistic in a dining car- with say one dining attendant and one kitchen manager and pre-ordered meals?


We did something like that on the Broadway in the late 70's.

Amtrak refitted a lounge car, and put a buffet tray-line in. As an LSA, I had one attendant, and other than heating up and serving the food to the passengers, as they slid their tray down the line, there was no real "cooking". Everything was in a steam-table.

We helped seniors and others actually carry the tray to the lounge-eating area, on that track, at that time, it was pretty hard just walking, let alone carrying a tray with hot food.

Couple of main dishes, then veggie sides, the food was actually pretty good, but then again, I brought my own spice box with me each time I worked it, which was only five or six times. LSA's hated the job, so those of us on the extra board always got it. "Too much work", the senior LSA's said.......

Me? I loved it. Every chance I could, I'd walk the food for the passenger, and take a drink order. We'd bus the tables, steal extra fresh flowers from the diner, and put them on half a dozen lounge tables. Made pretty decent tips IIRC.

It was the personal service and attention to detail that got the tips.

We also had liquor kits, and sodas, but I don't remember what the hours of operation are, because I don't think we were a full-service lounge, with chips and snacks, but I could be wrong. Prolly had my head in the steam table too much.

It was on that train, in that car, that a VP of Amtrak had to honestly advise me, "i'd be better off finishing college, than I would staying working for Amtrak........." I was furloughed that fall, and never did go back to work for Amtrak.


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## Railroad Bill (Feb 1, 2016)

A great story of times past. Whether Amtrak would ever try this idea again is doubtful but I think it would make for a more interesting dining experience


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## jis (Feb 1, 2016)

Rrdude, I remember having used that service on the Broadway Limited back then and loved it.

BTW United Airlines surprised me by serving a steak medallion done medium with a very nice sauce to go with it, on the Houston to Frankfurt 787-9 flight, in Business First class. They have definitely been working on improving their food service and it shows.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 1, 2016)

I remember a similar buffet style service on the Texas Ealge. Had to be early 90's I think.


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## Barton Keyes (Feb 6, 2016)

Progress is a strange thing. Making food provision on trains more cost-effective has downgraded the quality on offer. Perhaps people would care more about Amtrak if they had a more enjoyable experience in the dining car. That way passengers win and staff can take more pride in their work.


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## NETrainfan (Feb 6, 2016)

Isn't it possible to upgrade food quality without added costs?

For instance, my husband and I go to conferences where caterers serve delicious casseroles and salads

and sandwiches with home-made bread. They do not seem like expensive items.

Amtrak could serve better food without added costs- it's just a matter of being creative.


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## neroden (Feb 6, 2016)

It's really a matter of bad priorities and poor procurement practices. I am astounded that Amtrak doesn't have point-of-sale inventory tracking in the dining cars yet -- apparently it isn't even in all the *cafe* cars yet. But rather than get rid of thousands of man-hours of time-wasting inventory counting and paperwork, Amtrak chooses to skimp on quality.


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## conquistador74 (Feb 6, 2016)

I've been fortunate to have traveled Amtrak during it's better days. My personal opinion, which may fuel some debate here, to the reason why the food can't be better, the service, the product, is because of the ridiculously high wages of the employees, fueled by Union labor, which, in its day, was needed/appreciated, but today is simply an expensive crutch, which allows unacceptable employees to remain on the job, being paid far higher wages than they deserve. The conditions that sleepers have been allowed to deteriorate to, much from the neglect of employees to simply do their jobs is a perfect reflection of what is wrong with Amtrak.

There was a time, even not too long ago, that you could sit down in the diner and have a reasonably tasty meal, which was prepared onboard. Not so now. It's downright awful.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 6, 2016)

Patriotism and Union Bashing, the last refuge of scoundrels!

The main reason Amtrak has lived hand to mouth since A-Day, are the people that allegedly work in the Big White Domed Building and the Government Office Buildings by Union Station.

You could look it up!


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## Triley (Feb 6, 2016)

conquistador74 said:


> I've been fortunate to have traveled Amtrak during it's better days. My personal opinion, which may fuel some debate here, to the reason why the food can't be better, the service, the product, is because of the ridiculously high wages of the employees, fueled by Union labor, which, in its day, was needed/appreciated, but today is simply an expensive crutch, which allows unacceptable employees to remain on the job, being paid far higher wages than they deserve. The conditions that sleepers have been allowed to deteriorate to, much from the neglect of employees to simply do their jobs is a perfect reflection of what is wrong with Amtrak.
> 
> There was a time, even not too long ago, that you could sit down in the diner and have a reasonably tasty meal, which was prepared onboard. Not so now. It's downright awful.


You may say what you like, but let me give you a little insight in to our trips... There are some six day round trips out there, where the LSA-Cafe is expected to work 18 hour days, with few breaks. This doesn't include time to dismantle and re-set up the stock displays at the beginning/end of their shift, nor time to relax and fall asleep, wake up and get ready, etc.
Our Acela jobs out of Boston are 17 hour days. One of the jobs we use have involves working (10 hour day) to DC where we lay over (unpaid) 18 hours or so, work the five hour trip to Norfolk getting to the hotel by 12am, and then have to be back downstairs with the crew around 4:30am, and then working the 13 hour trip back to Boston (remember we're actually on duty for almost 15 hours, on 3.5 hours sleep on a good day).

What would you ask to be paid, to stand and work 15 hours, on that little sleep?

Compare our lack of hours of service, short turns, lack of sleep during some turns, and our pay, to what flight attendants deal with, and their pay. Does it really seem that far off that we earn what we do, when you consider the negatives compared to our closest sister profession?


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## Ryan (Feb 7, 2016)

Ideology trumps (no pun intended) facts for some people.


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## northnorthwest (Feb 15, 2016)

Finally had a chance to reply to my original post and say that on my recent trip from DEN to ATL the meals on the Crescent were decent, the meals on the Capitol Ltd. were very good (steak about as good as what you'd make at home), and the meals on the CZ were TERRIBLE...again. The oatmeal at breakfast was inedible, and the service was...again...very poor. This is the third time I've taken that train long distance between DEN and the east coast, and every time it's been poor service in the diner and poor food. I know it can be better, because other trains do it better. But it just seems that the dining staff have poor training and bad attitudes generally, and the food is just not good. I will take the train from Glenwood Springs to CA if I have a chance (head the scenery is stunning, and just out of rail loyalty), but otherwise I'm never taking this train. It needs big improvement.

Also on a related subject: why is it that all these trains are part of Amtrak, but they all insist on doing things different ways. For example, the CZ had no metal silverware; we were all using plastic, which was really tacky. But other trains use metal...And other trains like the Crescent ask me to sign my name after they filled out my room/car number on the form FOR ME, but then the CZ worker scolds me because I didn't do that on my own?! There should be some consistency across these basic services. I know I have to provide the information, but on other routes they've asked me and done the actual writing on the form themselves, but out of nowhere the policy of the CZ is that I (potentially as a new rider) have to read their minds and know what to do?! As they say, third time's a charm. I hope they get their act together, but I'm out of patience for that route.


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## neroden (Feb 15, 2016)

Let me repeat myself:



neroden said:


> It's really a matter of bad priorities and poor procurement practices. I am astounded that Amtrak doesn't have point-of-sale inventory tracking in the dining cars yet -- apparently it isn't even in all the *cafe* cars yet. But rather than get rid of thousands of man-hours of time-wasting inventory counting and paperwork, Amtrak chooses to skimp on quality.


The gross service inconsistency described by northnorthwest is just as bad, and another symptom of management just not bothering.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 15, 2016)

northnorthwest said:


> Finally had a chance to reply to my original post and say that on my recent trip from DEN to ATL the meals on the Crescent were decent, the meals on the Capitol Ltd. were very good (steak about as good as what you'd make at home), and the meals on the CZ were TERRIBLE...again. The oatmeal at breakfast was inedible, and the service was...again...very poor. This is the third time I've taken that train long distance between DEN and the east coast, and every time it's been poor service in the diner and poor food. I know it can be better, because other trains do it better. But it just seems that the dining staff have poor training and bad attitudes generally, and the food is just not good. I will take the train from Glenwood Springs to CA if I have a chance (head the scenery is stunning, and just out of rail loyalty), but otherwise I'm never taking this train. It needs big improvement.
> 
> Also on a related subject: why is it that all these trains are part of Amtrak, but they all insist on doing things different ways. For example, the CZ had no metal silverware; we were all using plastic, which was really tacky. But other trains use metal...And other trains like the Crescent ask me to sign my name after they filled out my room/car number on the form FOR ME, but then the CZ worker scolds me because I didn't do that on my own?! There should be some consistency across these basic services. I know I have to provide the information, but on other routes they've asked me and done the actual writing on the form themselves, but out of nowhere the policy of the CZ is that I (potentially as a new rider) have to read their minds and know what to do?! As they say, third time's a charm. I hope they get their act together, but I'm out of patience for that route.


Sounds like the Chicago crew base struck again. It isn't going to get better unless and until the management of that base gets themselves and their crews together.

Or better yet, they start enforcing consistent standards on all the crew bases.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 15, 2016)

On the topic of the Zephyr.. I've had very good luck with Diner Crews on the Zephyr. The zephyr is my all time favorite train, I like it better than the Canadian (gasp!). I've rode on the Zephyr 4 times last year and had 4 different diner crews and 3 of them were excellent and 1 was "amtrak average," good food, one of the servers was great, one of the servers was just ok, and the LSA was lazy and bossy. I'm just throwing that out there that my experiences on the Zephyr have mostly been good, so good Zephyr crews do exist.

As for the inconsistency on the checks. From what I can tell that is a crew base difference. Trains from the east coast (Silver Meteor, Crescent, Lake Shore, etc.) fill in the passengers car and room # for them, and then have the customer sign them. The West Coast Crews expect you to "know the drill." Personally I've always disliked that practice for a few reasons. #1 they put out a plastic cup of cheap bic pens on the table. Nothing classy about that. Second... it sets up passengers to be confused and then get scolded for doing it wrong. The East Coast method never hands the checks out except for the signing, this greatly reduces confusion and is, in my opinion, a much classier way of handling this.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 15, 2016)

The scenery on the Zephyr is second to none in tbe US, but comparing it to The Canadian is "over the top"!

( I've ridden both many times!)


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## FormerOBS (Feb 16, 2016)

Conquistador:

Please tell us what you think the pay should be for an onboard service employee. I happen to disagree with you, but I'd like to hear more about your theories regarding fair compensation for the work these folks do.

It's true that some onboard employees do their jobs better than others, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason to suggest that the majority are poor employees. I also believe the quality of the food often has a lot more to do with the supplies provided by management than anything else.

Tom


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 16, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> The scenery on the Zephyr is second to none in tbe US, but comparing it to The Canadian is "over the top"!
> 
> ( I've ridden both many times!)


I love the Canadian but I think it's highly over rated at the same time. (talking about the scenery.. dome cars can not be over rated, they are true perfection). There is great scenery, but there are some really boring parts too. I think of it more like the Empire Builder.

The Zephyr has the Rocky Mountains (complete with big 10 curves and Moffat Tunnel), Ruby Canyon, Glenwood Canyon, Donner Pass, and the Bay. The Canadian has..... the Rockies and Jasper. It does have the Canyon but does it ever travel through there during light hours?


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 16, 2016)

northnorthwest said:


> Meals on the CZ were TERRIBLE...again. The oatmeal at breakfast was inedible, and the service was...again...very poor. This is the third time I've taken that train long distance between DEN and the east coast, and every time it's been poor service in the diner and poor food. I know it can be better, because other trains do it better. But it just seems that the dining staff have poor training and bad attitudes generally, and the food is just not good. The CZ had no metal silverware; we were all using plastic, which was really tacky. But other trains use metal...And other trains like the Crescent ask me to sign my name after they filled out my room/car number on the form FOR ME, but then the CZ worker scolds me because I didn't do that on my own?! I know I have to provide the information, but on other routes they've asked me and done the actual writing on the form themselves, but out of nowhere the policy of the CZ is that I (potentially as a new rider) have to read their minds and know what to do?! I hope they get their act together, but I'm out of patience for that route.


This matches my experience with the CZ perfectly. Arrogant and obnoxious crews with lousy dining services. The views are great but the staff acts like you're invading their space and annoying them virtually anytime you interact. Makes for a rather draining train trip. On some occasions I've ended my CZ inclusive trips early rather than put up with more of Amtrak's dismal service levels. Just to be clear I don't think every Amtrak train is like this. In fact I've found the CS to be almost completely the opposite.



zephyr17 said:


> Sounds like the Chicago crew base struck again. It isn't going to get better unless and until the management of that base gets themselves and their crews together. Or better yet, they start enforcing consistent standards on all the crew bases.


At this point I think it's pretty clear that whatever is wrong with the Chicago base isn't going to be fixed anytime soon. I'm not sure if Amtrak simply refuses to accept that a problem exists or has simply giving up any hope of ever correcting it.



crescent-zephyr said:


> On the topic of the Zephyr.. I've had very good luck with Diner Crews on the Zephyr. The zephyr is my all time favorite train, I like it better than the Canadian (gasp!). From what I can tell that is a crew base difference. Trains from the east coast (Silver Meteor, Crescent, Lake Shore, etc.) fill in the passengers car and room # for them, and then have the customer sign them. The West Coast Crews expect you to "know the drill."


Every single experience of mine has been the complete opposite of what you're describing here. If I didn't know better I might think you were intentionally trolling this thread.


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## andersone (Feb 16, 2016)

I would rate the numerous trips on the Zeph at least an 85 - so I am going to side with DA on this one,,, not perfect food or service but way above average/


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 16, 2016)

Devils advocate... I really like your posts in general but do you really think I'm lying? I'm sharing my experiences.

I'm not suggesting you're lying when you say you've had all bad experiences on the zephyr, because I've ridden enough Amtrak trains to know how inconsistent they really are.

For years I had such consistently bad service on the Capitol I dreaded riding the train, this year I had a wonderful diner crew and SCA. I was totally shocked as I thought the DC crew base must to blame.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 16, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Devils advocate... I really like your posts in general but do you really think I'm lying? I'm sharing my experiences. I'm not suggesting you're lying when you say you've had all bad experiences on the zephyr, because I've ridden enough Amtrak trains to know how inconsistent they really are. For years I had such consistently bad service on the Capitol I dreaded riding the train, this year I had a wonderful diner crew and SCA. I was totally shocked as I thought the DC crew base must to blame.


I'm not nearly as perpetually hyped about the Canadian's service as many folks on the forum, but the idea that the CZ routinely exceeds the VC experience just does not compute for me. Nor does the idea that the Chicago crews are easy going while the LA crews have heavy expectations. That being said, I don't _actually_ think you're lying. I simply have no frame of reference for what you're describing and it sounds completely foreign to me. To each his own as they say.


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## Cina (Feb 16, 2016)

I've had pretty good dining crews the 5 times I've ridden the zephyr. Two times the staff were exceptionally charismatic and nice, and the other times were nothing to write home about, but no one was doing their jobs poorly or with an attitude. I've also been blessed with really good SCAs the three times I've travelled in sleeper (Nathan and Darrel, if anyone's had them.)

There are probably some pretty awful employees based out of Chicago, but I've been really lucky to have great-to-fine ones, and hope to again this summer. *knocks on every piece of wood within reach*


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 16, 2016)

I've has Nathan on the Zephyr. Very nice. And Dennis Burns I've had twice, one of Amtraks best!


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 16, 2016)

Ohhhhhh wait. Total misunderstanding. I was saying the zephyr is my favorite train for scenery and route. Not service! I was saying the zephyr is my favorite so I ride it a lot.

I had good service on the zephyr. But it was "Amtrak good." And as I mentioned out of 4 trips on the zephyr, one of them had an extremely bossy LSA. But the server I got most of the time was very nice.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 16, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Ohhhhhh wait. Total misunderstanding. I was saying the zephyr is my favorite train for scenery and route. Not service! I was saying the zephyr is my favorite so I ride it a lot. I had good service on the zephyr. But it was "Amtrak good."


Roger that. I understand what you're saying now. I think the VC has some great scenery although it's mostly bunched up toward the Western end of the route while the CZ seems to have a larger variety of equally interesting landscapes that span a longer duration of travel. Personally I think the CS has the best overall combination of scenery, service, and scheduling. The scenery may not be quite as impressive as the CZ but the other pieces add up to easier planning and a far more pleasant and relaxed feeling at the end of my journey.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 16, 2016)

Much as I like the Scenery on the Zephyr route, I have to say that IMO the Starlight has the Zephyr beat when all things are considered!( Scenery/PPC-Food/Service/)

As for equipment, food and service, the Canadian wins hands down. Lots of folks dislike the delays that it expierences because of freight priority, but when riding the Canadian I really don't care if we ever get there, the journey is so pleasant!


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## HenryK (Feb 16, 2016)

"Cheeriness begets cheeriness," goes the saying, and the obverse obviously holds true for certain folks on this forum. Some of the members remind me of Joe Btfsplk.


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## zepherdude (Feb 16, 2016)

I do not take the train a lot, but always enjoy what I order. Service always meets my expectations, I joke and cut up with the staff and the folks at my table, if they are pleasant enough. I know what to expect and surprised if I get more. I realize these folks are not professional waitstaff and might be making beds tomorrow. I think the food is good for a train as I realize the problems of long distance food production. Just my feelings on the issue as I have never had to grip or *****. BTW, the wine is much better than mentioned above somewhere else.


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## KauaiJohn (Feb 16, 2016)

I have always enjoyed the meals on all of the western trains. I don't eat eggs but love the breakfast and it is always plenty and filling. I almost always enjoy meeting and talking with the other couple at the table


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## neroden (Feb 16, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Every single experience of mine has been the complete opposite of what you're describing here. If I didn't know better I might think you were intentionally trolling this thread.


Read the Amtrak PIP for the California Zephyr -- specifically page 4.

There are six crews operating at any given time; there are a total of 14 crews.

At the time, of these crews, 6 were good enough:

-- two receive lots of praise and very few complaints

-- one receives lots of praise and a fair number of complaints

-- three receive little praise but few complaints

And 8 were no good: they had high complaints and little praise.

So if you luck out and always get the 6 good crews, your experience is great. If on the other hand you always get the 8 terrible crews, your experience is terrible.

So Amtrak identified the problem. They don't seem to have been able to *fix* it, however.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 16, 2016)

zepherdude said:


> I...always enjoy what I order. Service always meets my expectations.


&


KauaiJohn said:


> I have always enjoyed the meals on all of the western trains.


People who casually admit that it’s virtually impossible to disappoint them will never cease to amaze me. Makes me wonder what it’s like to live life as a proud pushover.



neroden said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Every single experience of mine has been the complete opposite of what you're describing here. If I didn't know better I might think you were intentionally trolling this thread.
> ...


What I don’t understand is why people who appear to hate the very concept of a service oriented industry continue to work in a service oriented industry. You'd think that year after year and decade after decade they'd eventually get sick of it. This isn’t simply an Amtrak problem. North American airlines tend to have surprisingly poor service standards as well. Which I suppose might explain why we have so many people who seem to hate the very concept of an organized government doing everything they can to secure a job working inside our government. Watching the news these days makes me wonder if we've become a nation focused almost entirely on shooting ourselves in the foot. Is there a point to any of this? I honestly don't know. It's like I'm in some sort of bizarre Twilight Zone style nightmare where logic has been turned on its head but nobody seems to notice or care.


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## zepherdude (Feb 16, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> > I...always enjoy what I order. Service always meets my expectations.
> ...


I wonder what it is like just to ***** about everything. You know so much, go to work for Amtrak and fix everything you claim to know everything about. They really need you.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 16, 2016)

zepherdude said:


> I wonder what it is like just to ***** about everything.


Overt schadenfreude is extremely satisfying and I would recommend it to anyone who is ready to take off the rose colored glasses.



zepherdude said:


> You know so much, go to work for Amtrak and fix everything you claim to know everything about. They really need you.


Your suggestion presumes that...

1. Amtrak can be fixed.

2. Amtrak _wants_ to be fixed.

3. I have any desire to fix Amtrak.

Although I'm a huge proponent of modern passenger rail I see no particular need for Amtrak to be a part of it. Amtrak had four decades to find a way to thrive and they couldn't. That may not be Amtrak's fault but the way I see it trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is akin to insanity. So I ask you, when are we going to stop sugarcoating the mess Amtrak has always been stuck in and consider supporting something else for a change?

Here on AU we are generally led to believe that if we lose Amtrak there will never be another option, but I'm not yet convinced of that. It seems equally likely to me that Amtrak's continued existence as the world's slowest and least advanced passenger rail network among industrialized nations may actually be doing more harm than good at this point. Anytime I bring up passenger rail among the uninitiated I have to stop and explain how it doesn't _necessarily_ have to be just like Amtrak. Except that, so long as Amtrak remains the officially sanctioned passenger rail carrier, maybe it does?


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## neroden (Feb 17, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> What I don’t understand is why people who appear to hate the very concept of a service oriented industry continue to work in a service oriented industry. You'd think that year after year and decade after decade they'd eventually get sick of it. This isn’t simply an Amtrak problem. North American airlines tend to have surprisingly poor service standards as well. Which I suppose might explain why we have so many people who seem to hate the very concept of an organized government doing everything they can to secure a job working inside our government. Watching the news these days makes me wonder if we've become a nation focused almost entirely on shooting ourselves in the foot. Is there a point to any of this? I honestly don't know. It's like I'm in some sort of bizarre Twilight Zone style nightmare where logic has been turned on its head but nobody seems to notice or care.


Well, my current theory is that our country is still mostly run by people who had heavy lead poisoning at birth due to gasoline lead present when they were born. This applies to anyone born in the US from the early 1920s through the mid-1980s, but is much much worse for people born from about 1955-1975. It's also worse for people born in some places than others, thanks to lead being phased in and out at different times in diffrent places, and more cars in some places than others. (Rural was generally better, but obviously anyone near a lead smelter was screwed. California phased out lead faster than other states, and much of the Midwest delayed the phaseout.)

If I'm right, "the kids are all right" and things will get better in general as people who are now under the age of 40 take over the government. The younger the better.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 17, 2016)

Nerodes theory of youth sounds right! We don't need any more senile 70 year olds as President as has been proven!


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## JayPea (Feb 17, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Nerodes theory of youth sounds right! We don't need any more senile 70 year olds as President as has been proven!


Ya mean like Hillary or Bernie????? (I'm sorry, Jim, de debil made me do it!!! h34r: h34r: h34r:   )

I haven't had that much problem with Amtrak service in general, but have had my moments where the service ranged from pretty bad to absolutely awful. If Amtrak focused on customer service to the extent the grocery store chain I work for does, perhaps things would be better. Ours is a smallish chain based in Spokane and we can't always compete with the the Wal-Marts and mega-grocery chains of the world in price, but we absolutely hammer home the importance of customer service. In fact just last week one of our deli employees had a three-day unpaid :"vacation" due to continued ghastly service. And that is his last chance. One more complaint and he's outta there. (And he is a perfect example of what Neroden is talking about. At 67, he is by far the oldest employee in our store.  )

My particular experience with the CZ is limited, just four trips altogether, two from Chicago to Sacramento, one from Chicago to Sparks, and one from Sacramento to Chicago, so the sample is very small, but in all four cases the SCA I had was excellent. No problems there. And the service in the dining car overall has been good, though the first time, in 2004, the server was surly at best. (And he was a young kid!  ) And on another, the LSA was nasty at times. She could have been the sister of Miss Polly (the rather infamous example of miserable dining car service from the Texas Eagle). The food, was, well, Amtrak food. Not bad, but not great either. I have reserved my complaints to customer relations to the LSA on the Coast Starlight who, on the one occasion I rode coach on the CS, made it absolutely clear he wanted no part of the great unwashed from the coaches anywhere near the dining car, and the ghastly attendant on the Spokane-Seattle portion of the EB who, when all I wanted was a diet Pepsi, studiously avoided me for about the same amount of time it took for the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, and when she finally did acknowledge my existance, tell me they were out of diet Pepsi. The only thing she was willing to sell me was apple juice, which doesn't me any good because of my diabetes. And when I pointed this out, her response was to tell me in so many words that if I didn't like it to go drink out of the tap. :angry2: :angry2: :angry2: And then she rather nastily informed me I would have to wait for the LSA to get change, and took her sweet time getting the LSA. The topper was the LSA was only so happy to sell the woman behind me a diet Pepsi. DOUBLE :angry2: :angry2: :angry2: . Both the CS incident and the EB incident happened to take place on the same trip. I got a nice little voucher out of that one.


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## OBS (Feb 17, 2016)

Believe it or not, the CZ CSI (customer service) scores (based on the surveys issued to passengers after the trip) have shown the CZ having the best of all LD trains in the last few months (which has been a marked improvement over previous scores). Maybe there is hope yet !?


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## Cina (Feb 17, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Which I suppose might explain why we have so many people who seem to hate the very concept of an organized government doing everything they can to secure a job working inside our government.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 17, 2016)

Anyone remember Marvin from the CZ (he often played some cartoon music before making cafe car announcements)? He was great!


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Feb 17, 2016)

Also one other thing I really hate. The biscuits and croissants are whole wheat instead of white. And there is no option for either wheat or white. And also, only select trains have pancakes.


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## mlanoue (Feb 17, 2016)

OBS said:


> Believe it or not, the CZ CSI (customer service) scores (based on the surveys issued to passengers after the trip) have shown the CZ having the best of all LD trains in the last few months (which has been a marked improvement over previous scores). Maybe there is hope yet !?


My wife, daughter and I took the CZ on Christmas day from CHI to EMY and we had a great trip. (There was one weird incident that happened but wasn't related to the diner). It was only the second trip in a sleeper I'd ever taken, and I was prepared to be disappointed with the food, but honestly, it was pretty good overall. Of course it could be better, but we had no complaints, either.


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## neroden (Feb 18, 2016)

To be clear on what I was saying: childhood lead poisoning makes people "dumb and mean" -- also paranoid. Some would have been meaner to start with, some less mean; some would have been smarter to start with, some less smart; it just makes people worse than they would have been otherwise. It was really severe and endemic among Americans who are now older than 40 and younger than 60. Though lead poisoning was also affecting most people older than that and some people younger than that too; most of us probably have a touch of it.

But people born in the the US who are 45-55 right now typically got *massive* doses of lead as children, unless they grew up far away from cars. And I'd expect a lot of them to be in senior management positions in business and government right now. In order to get management which isn't acting stupid and malicious, we may have to wait for them to age out of power.


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## zepherdude (Feb 18, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder what it is like just to ***** about everything.
> ...


I think you need a garden or something else to do besides worry about Amtrak food service. Why do you subject yourself to something so aweful and inferior as Amtrak? The bus is a much better way to go. Buy a pack of cigarettes and Mrs. Wagners Pies and just Look for America! Then there will be nothing to ***** about! Opps.......I bet you'll find something!


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## MARC Rider (Feb 18, 2016)

jis said:


> Rrdude, I remember having used that service on the Broadway Limited back then and loved it.
> 
> BTW United Airlines surprised me by serving a steak medallion done medium with a very nice sauce to go with it, on the Houston to Frankfurt 787-9 flight, in Business First class. They have definitely been working on improving their food service and it shows.


Nice to be able to travel Business First class. But what does United serve to coach passengers?


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## jebr (Feb 18, 2016)

MARC Rider said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Rrdude, I remember having used that service on the Broadway Limited back then and loved it.
> ...


FlyerTalk has a few meal reviews with photos. Looks like they serve beef or salmon, with the salmon looking acceptable (and if plated as an Amtrak meal, could probably pass for a better-than-normal Amtrak diner meal.)

Even on domestic flights, United is serving a complimentary light snack (stroopwaffel or asian snack mix) along with complimentary beverages. A step above Amtrak's complimentary options in coach (a shot glass of tap water, serve yourself.)


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## MARC Rider (Feb 18, 2016)

neroden said:


> To be clear on what I was saying: childhood lead poisoning makes people "dumb and mean" -- also paranoid. Some would have been meaner to start with, some less mean; some would have been smarter to start with, some less smart; it just makes people worse than they would uhave been otherwise. It was really severe and endemic among Americans who are now older than 40 and younger than 60. Though lead poisoning was also affecting most people older than that and some people younger than that too; most of us probably have a touch of it.
> 
> But people born in the the US who are 45-55 right now typically got *massive* doses of lead as children, unless they grew up far away from cars. And I'd expect a lot of them to be in senior management positions in business and government right now. In order to get management which isn't acting stupid and malicious, we may have to wait for them to age out of power.


Ah, that explains my boss!!

(Just kidding)

Though, come to think of it, the pre-Baby Boomer bosses I had early in my career stuck up for their staff more than bosses do today. They also seemed more competent, but maybe that was just because they didn't have to manage in the face of scarce and declining resources.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 18, 2016)

zepherdude said:


> I think you need a garden or something else to do besides worry about Amtrak food service. Why do you subject yourself to something so aweful [sic] and inferior as Amtrak? The bus is a much better way to go. Buy a pack of cigarettes and Mrs. Wagners [sic] Pies and just Look for America! Then there will be nothing to ***** about! Opps [sic] .I bet you'll find something!


Amtrak food is hardly worth worrying about but the worse it gets the easier and more enjoyable it is to criticize. I haven't smoked cigarettes since I was five or six but I have smoked shisha on occasion. Just for kicks I tried to make a list of the places I've visited in the US and ran out of steam after listing around 150 locations across twenty states and possessions. Obviously there's still plenty more to see and do but once I began traveling internationally that became my primary focus.

If exploration of Americas defunct manufacturing sector was legal and safe I'd be visiting many more domestic locations. Cruising around St. Louis gave me goosebumps but alas there was no easy or obvious method for exploring most of it without risking exposure to various industrial poisons and vacation altering arrest. Seems like a missed opportunity for growing a unique form of tourism in hard hit areas and providing a teachable moment for Americas youth.



jebr said:


> Looks like they serve beef or salmon, with the salmon looking acceptable (and if plated as an Amtrak meal, could probably pass for a better-than-normal Amtrak diner meal.)


United's international coach food has been pretty bad for over a decade now. Nothing I've seen looks substantially improved in any obvious manner. That being said, their snack packs aren't half bad and go well with a cocktail or two.



jebr said:


> Even on domestic flights, United is serving a complimentary light snack (stroopwaffel or asian snack mix) along with complimentary beverages. A step above Amtrak's complimentary options in coach (a shot glass of tap water, serve yourself.)


Wow, so full service legacy airlines are finally trying to claw their way back up to the reduced service levels of low cost carriers?


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## Skyline (Feb 26, 2016)

crabby_appleton1950 said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> > Simple, because the government doesn't take Amtrak seriously, despite the fact more and more people are riding it. They also don't have the guts to properly fund it. I would say something much worst then that, but I'm not looking to get in trouble. Give Amtrak $10 billion a year in subsidies and I guarantee it you'll see a different system and better food being supplied.
> ...


It's intentional, and a lot more Republicans than Democrats are guilty. If they can sabotage train satisfaction, fewer people will ride, and then they can point to decreased ridership as justification to make further cuts.


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## FormerOBS (Feb 26, 2016)

Skyline said:


> crabby_appleton1950 said:
> 
> 
> > Caesar La Rock said:
> ...


'Tain't rocket science, McGee.

Tom


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## EB_OBS (Feb 26, 2016)

blondninja said:


> Also, as was said one must acknowledge how much they are paid. They are paid not just a living wage but a very good, some would say even upper middle class wage. They don't need the tips to live off of as would be the case in a regular restaurant.



Just some comments to many posts from this topic.

1. Amtrak waiters make $40k to $60K salary, depending upon seniority, regular or extra-board and OT. Quite far from upper middle-class. They have slightly better retirement than social security and pretty good health benefits.


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## EB_OBS (Feb 26, 2016)

2. Raw ingredients I'm aware of on LD dining cars

Eggs, and you can still get fried eggs on the Empire Builder as far as I know.

Pancakes

Oatmeal

Hashbrowns are shredded and dehydrated. Reconstituted and cooked onboard.

Steaks

Fish

Baked potatoes

Vegetables, bagged and steamed or heated in hot water onboard

Rice pilaf, it used to be Uncle Ben's. Not sure if it still is.


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## EB_OBS (Feb 26, 2016)

I agree that service is inconsistent on Amtrak, both in the diners and passenger cars. Believe me it drives me nuts too.

It baffles me why Amtrak can't or won't put actual supervision on the trains with real ability to correct and discipline the bad apples.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 26, 2016)

EB_OBS said:


> 2. Raw ingredients I'm aware of on LD dining cars
> 
> Eggs, and you can still get fried eggs on the Empire Builder as far as I know.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this!

Other than seeing the eggs being scrambled on a single level dining car a few years ago I really wasn't sure about some of the other dishes.


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## EB_OBS (Feb 26, 2016)

I also don't believe those numbers $$$ published that food service lost and loses many millions of dollars every year. I don't doubt that there is loss, but I do believe that Amtrak accounting does not properly allocate the true amount of dollars from the sleeper fares to the dining car.

Additionally due to FDA and Amtrak food safety standards AND the lack of REAL professional training AND ridiculous accounting/inventory control, Amtrak purchases TOO MUCH product individually packaged. The worst possible way to buy in bulk. Every steak is individually vacuum sealed as is every fish filet, chicken etc. This is almost 100% due to one-to-one counting of sales to inventory and charging the LSA and chef for any discrepancies. This charging has changed some but the system has not.


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## FormerOBS (Feb 26, 2016)

EB_OBS said:


> blondninja said:
> 
> 
> > Also, as was said one must acknowledge how much they are paid. They are paid not just a living wage but a very good, some would say even upper middle class wage. They don't need the tips to live off of as would be the case in a regular restaurant.
> ...


I understand the $40K figure. It is possible, and not an unreasonable income for a career employee in today's economy. But I don't know where the $60K figure comes from. I never managed that, including tips and overtime. There are a few masochists out there who make extra trips whenever possible and accrue lots of overtime, but they are the extremely rare exception. They are usually very young and full of energy. Most normal adults would wear themselves out, make themselves sick, and become miserable human beings if they worked that much.

YMMV.

Tom


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## FormerOBS (Feb 26, 2016)

EB_OBS said:


> I agree that service is inconsistent on Amtrak, both in the diners and passenger cars. Believe me it drives me nuts too.
> 
> It baffles me why Amtrak can't or won't put actual supervision on the trains with real ability to correct and discipline the bad apples.


As far as I know, the Auto Train was the last Amtrak train to have a supervisor (chief) on every trip. In the recent past, that train has often run one way or round trip with no chief. This is an operation with 2 diners, 2 lounges, 6 or 7 sleepers, a new business class service, and a busy coach section, a service crew of over 20, and sometimes no onboard supervision! It is a great credit to the Auto Train's under-appreciated onboard service crews that the train continues to be successful.

Tom


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## EB_OBS (Feb 26, 2016)

The auto-train though is not a true comparison to the rest of the LD service. The auto-train crew are hand picked, the cream of the crop so to say. Any Amtrak employee cannot exercise their seniority to bump onto an auto-train job.


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## EB_OBS (Feb 26, 2016)

Back in 2010 Amtrak called together all the Customer Service supervisors, the Chiefs, to a meeting in Wilmington and directly stated that the program would be expanded from the 40-50 current jobs to as many as 180 in the next couple years. 20 were jobs were created almost immediately. Then that's it. Nothing more has been done to increase onboard supervision since then. Additionally some crew bases stick their CSQSs in the office when they are supposed to be 90% travel jobs. This keeps them on 8 hour shifts and keeps them from ever getting any additional hours of pay. A total misuse of the CSQSs intended purpose.

Also the CSQSs have zero authority to initiate discipline. Yes they can pull am employee out of service but then you are left with no one to work that position for the rest of the trip so this is rarely done. Their only power is to document and pass along their observations and statements to management. A system that failed when they were chiefs and still fails to this day to consistently correct poor performance.


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## FormerOBS (Feb 26, 2016)

EB_OBS said:


> The auto-train though is not a true comparison to the rest of the LD service. The auto-train crew are hand picked, the cream of the crop so to say. Any Amtrak employee cannot exercise their seniority to bump onto an auto-train job.


Even the cream of the crop has its limits.

Tom


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## Radvlad (Feb 26, 2016)

FormerOBS said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > blondninja said:
> ...


$40K may be a decent salary in Tulsa or Toledo but I don't think it's overkill for crew members based in cities with a high cost of living like Chicago or Los Angeles.


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## Hal (Feb 26, 2016)

EB_OBS said:


> The auto-train though is not a true comparison to the rest of the LD service. The auto-train crew are hand picked, the cream of the crop so to say. Any Amtrak employee cannot exercise their seniority to bump onto an auto-train job.


LOL.


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## Triley (Feb 27, 2016)

FormerOBS said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > blondninja said:
> ...


*raises hand shyly* I may or may not be one of those masochists. I may or may not have had some 300 hours of OT since June. That being said, I'm 27. I figure I'll take it while we're short, and the work is plentiful.


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## EB_OBS (Feb 27, 2016)

I know a TA/SA that once made over $90k in one year. He was probably home only 14 or 15 days that year.

He was young and unmarried at the time.


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## EB_OBS (Feb 27, 2016)

Triley said:


> *raises hand shyly* I may or may not be one of those masochists. I may or may not have had some 300 hours of OT since June. That being said, I'm 27. I figure I'll take it while we're short, and the work is plentiful.


I have over half a dozen months that I've worked over 300 hours in a month. The most was 346. This was as an LSA on the extra board during summer months.


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## Triley (Feb 27, 2016)

EB_OBS said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > *raises hand shyly* I may or may not be one of those masochists. I may or may not have had some 300 hours of OT since June. That being said, I'm 27. I figure I'll take it while we're short, and the work is plentiful.
> ...


The thing is, I'm out on the corridor doing this without any longhauls.  It's near impossible to turn over 250 hours in a month in Boston without turning same day for a train, which CMC obviously tries to avoid. Still, I can't imagine that. You must've literally lived onboard the entire month, whenever you did those hours.


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## neroden (Feb 27, 2016)

EB_OBS said:


> 2. Raw ingredients I'm aware of on LD dining cars
> 
> Eggs, and you can still get fried eggs on the Empire Builder as far as I know.
> 
> ...


Of these, sadly only the eggs, oatmeal, steak, baked potatoes, and vegetables have *known ingredients*. I've been unable to find out what's in the pancake batter or the rice pilaf or the hashbrowns.

Amtrak should leverage the eggs. Fried eggs should be possible on all trains with dining cars because *why not*, if you've got eggs already.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 28, 2016)

There is a fairly logical reason behind the eggs. Scrambled eggs can be made as many at a time as needed and split among multiple plates. They all get cooked together and split when done. Nothing to keep track of. With only one cook, this keeps things more simple when it gets busy. Keeping track of one scrambled egg, one over easy, and one sunny side up, while making up other plates would be much more complex.

This is why some trains will still serve eggs cooked different ways upon request depending on the cook, and how busy the train is.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 28, 2016)

EB_OBS said:


> Raw ingredients I'm aware of on LD dining cars
> 
> Eggs, and you can still get fried eggs on the Empire Builder as far as I know.
> 
> ...


Where I come from "raw" means unprocessed and perishable.

Eggs - Only offered as scrambled on the trains I ride.

Pancakes - Any ingredient that says "pancakes" isn't raw.

Oatmeal - Imperishable but close enough.

Hashbrowns - Raw doesn't refer to dehydrated goods.

Steaks - Amtrak's infamous Steak Island exception.

Fish - Not fresh but still raw so I must agree.

Baked potatoes - Fair enough.

Vegetables - The dinner entrees come with limp frozen vegetables.

Rice pilaf - Uncle Ben's is not raw, not unprocessed, not perishable.

In my view you're batting 5 out of 9 (or 55%) with this listing.



crescent-zephyr said:


> There is a fairly logical reason behind the eggs. Scrambled eggs can be made as many at a time as needed and split among multiple plates. They all get cooked together and split when done. Nothing to keep track of. With only one cook, this keeps things more simple when it gets busy. Keeping track of one scrambled egg, one over easy, and one sunny side up, while making up other plates would be much more complex.
> 
> This is why some trains will still serve eggs cooked different ways upon request depending on the cook, and how busy the train is.


Eggs are literally one of the fastest and easiest items for a trained cook to prepare. In my experience breakfast on Amtrak is generally the slowest meal of the day. Lack of cooked to order eggs/sausage/bacon puts me off ordering which presumably hurts Amtraks F&B budget.


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