# Comparison of Vancouver-Toronto Running Times via CN 1961-2018



## zephyr17 (Jul 27, 2018)

On the eve of the first run over the new schedule, I thought it would be interesting to compare the running times over the years:

January 1961(source January 1961 Official Guide):

Super Continental CN #2/52

Dp Vancouver 6:00 pm, day 1

Ar Toronto 4:10 pm, day 4

Running time: 67:10

2008 (source Canadian Trackside Guide 2008):

Canadian VIA #2

Dp Vancouver 5:30 pm, day 1

Ar Toronto 8:00 pm, day 4

Running time: 71:30

Increase 4:20

June 2018 (source VIA schedule PDF):

Canadian VIA #2

Dp Vancouver 8:30 pm, day 1

Ar Toronto 9:30 am, day 5

Running time: 82:00

Increase: 10:30

Increase over Super Continental: 14:50

July 27, 2018 (source VIA schedule PDF):

Dp Vancouver 12 noon, day 1

Ar Toronto 2 pm, day 5

Running time: 95:00

Increase: 13:00

Increase over Super Continental: 27:50

Corrected per Trogdor's post


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## zephyr17 (Jul 27, 2018)

And, just for fun...

January 1961(source January 1961 Official Guide):

The Canadian CP #2/12

Dp Vancouver 7:40 pm, day 1

Ar Toronto 5:10 pm, day 4

Running time: 66:30


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## Trogdor (Jul 27, 2018)

Interesting data, though your “increase” calculations are off. The June schedule is 10:30 longer (14:50 over Super Continental), and the July schedule is 27:50 over the Super Continental.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 27, 2018)

Thanks, Trogdor, was doing the arithmetic at 11:30 last night and flubbed it. Corrected the post.


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## MikefromCrete (Jul 27, 2018)

And the CN still won't run it on time. I saw a story on Trains New Wire this week than CN will eventually double track the Edmonton-Winnepeg main line (the source of most of the Canadian's troubles), but the construction timetable is extremely lengthy. So hope is on the horizon, but it may take several decades to reach the goal.


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## Anderson (Jul 27, 2018)

The sad thing is that, IIRC, the post-2008 lengthening was to get morning times on the ends...not because there was a desperate operational need, but because there was an issue that the train didn't connect to _anything_ in Toronto once they pulled the Enterprise. At least with the schedule that we've had (on paper) you could theoretically run through to Montreal on the same day and then onwards to Halifax (via the _Ocean_). IIRC they even timed one of the checked luggage trains to work with it.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 28, 2018)

Well, I just tried a Vancouver-Montreal test reservation, and it does come up with a same day connection to 668 at 5:57pm. There aren't a lot of other possible connections than Montreal and I think a same day connection to Montreal and then to the Ocean may be too much to ask these days.

I did just look at status and right now, 11:19 pm PT, 2 is 49 minutes late, leaving Kamloops at 10:43 pm. Although the status map is showing 1:28 late at Clearwater and the map also shows the train only about a few km out of Kamloops.


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 28, 2018)

Anderson said:


> ....At least with the schedule that we've had (on paper) you could theoretically run through to Montreal on the same day and then onwards to Halifax (via the _Ocean_). IIRC they even timed one of the checked luggage trains to work with it.


Schedule a practical sameday connection from the Canadian to a corridor train and onto Montreal or a corridor train from Toronto .....connecting to the Ocean in Montreal but don't try both. To many variables on each end for that rare passenger (a.k.a. Railfan) wanting to do that epic cross country journey all the way from Vancouver to Halifax non-stop. Most would want at least a one night stopover in Montreal or Toronto.


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## railiner (Jul 28, 2018)

It was somewhat simpler when a section of the Canadian went thu to or from Montreal....they joined/split at Sudbury.

Oh...and it also served Ottawa directly on the way....


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## zephyr17 (Jul 28, 2018)

Yeah, but I think the rail is actually gone, I know the CP route is, think CN as well, but not positive. Not just no passenger service, but no railroad.

CN trains split at Capreol, btw. But the VIA Canadian on CN routing never did split, only went to Toronto, IIRC.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 28, 2018)

PS, I did do a through connection from Halifax (on the VIA Atlantic Limited) to the Montreal section of the Canadian to Winnipeg in 1986.

Better days.


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 29, 2018)

zephyr17 said:


> Yeah, but I think the rail is actually gone, I know the CP route is, think CN as well, but not positive. Not just no passenger service, but no railroad.
> 
> CN trains split at Capreol, btw. But the VIA Canadian on CN routing never did split, only went to Toronto, IIRC.


Yes..both the CP and CN lines are long gone that would allow a split in Sudbury/Capreol and run via Ottawa to Montreal.

After the VIA cutbacks in Nov. 1981 the Canadian still ran between Vancouver and Montreal but now via Toronto with the through car to Montreal handled in a corridor train east of Toronto. Not via Ottawa.

Here's the 'Canadian' attached to the 'Lakeshore' at Brockville ON in Jan. 1983


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 29, 2018)

In June 1985 VIA did restore a section of the Canadian via Ottawa but it was a short train with only a through coach, Skyline and sleeper. The main train ran to/fr Toronto with the through cars added/split at Sudbury. This lasted until the big VIA cut in January 1990. Here's the w/b 'Canadian' at Dorval in June 1985.


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## railiner (Jul 29, 2018)

Great shots!

Now if I only had a "time-machine"....(sigh)....


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## zephyr17 (Jul 30, 2018)

Well, the first couple of runs of 2 on the new schedule are looking pretty good. Right now 2(27) is 5 minutes late at Nakina, and 2(29) is on time at Evansburg. Train loses up to 2-3 hours, then makes it up in the "pad" at major stops like Jasper and Winnipeg, the various pads being in both the scheduled arrival and a padded dwell. For example, 2 was 2:09 late at Portage la Prairie, arrived 3:36 late at Winnipeg (20:36 actual, scheduled arrival 17:00) out of Winnipeg on time at 22:00. Worst time down aside from Winnipeg appears to have been at Unity, where it was 2:43 down, made up some pad at Saskatoon, where it arrived only 59 minutes late. That is how I imagined this schedule working, with the train apparently losing some significant time at intermediate points, then making it up at least partially in pad at more "major" points. But CN is still kind of at the edge even so. If the train was much later at Winnipeg, it would have been late out. They need 60-90 minutes to do servicing/restocking/recrew at Winnipeg.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 31, 2018)

2(27) is OT at Capreol.


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 31, 2018)

Here's the schedule for Canadian Northern's*** Transcontinental Service in summer 1917....101 years ago. It took a day longer than even the Canadians new schedule.

(***Canadian Northern became part of Canadian National when it was formed a year or so later)

Route was a bit different but mileage was similar: 2,909 vs 2,778. Same route as the 'Canadian' today as far as Longlac but then it went via Port Arthur-Fort William (Thunder Bay)....into the US at Rainy River ON and across northern Minnesota south of Lake of the Woods then to Winnipeg. Between Winnipeg and Edmonton it used what is todays' CN's secondary line across the prairies through Dauphin, Humbolt and North Battleford..north of the Grand Trunk Pacific mainline the Canadian uses.

From Edmontonthrough Jasper and onto Kamloops and Vancouver....same route as today except for a few line relocations


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 31, 2018)

And the timetable for CN's 'Continental Limited' in 1944.


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## railiner (Aug 1, 2018)

Love those old timetables, thanks for posting them!

Interesting how they made the tight GN connection to Seattle at New Westminster. Kind of reminiscent of connecting between New York and the Maritimes at St. Lambert, at the other end of the country...


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## cpotisch (Aug 8, 2018)

Wait, how did the "Continental Limited" get from Toronto to Montreal in about four hours? Doesn't the Ocean take about a day to do a similar trip?


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 8, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Wait, how did the "Continental Limited" get from Toronto to Montreal in about four hours? Doesn't the Ocean take about a day to do a similar trip?


I don't know about the first one probably faster running. But the second one the Ocean terminates in Montreal and doesn't go any further.


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## trainman74 (Aug 8, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Wait, how did the "Continental Limited" get from Toronto to Montreal in about four hours?


Are you looking at the boldface running times on the second page? Look at the actual schedule instead (and the map at the top) -- there were separate Montreal and Toronto sections that combined at Capreol, Ontario.


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## cpotisch (Aug 8, 2018)

trainman74 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, how did the "Continental Limited" get from Toronto to Montreal in about four hours?
> ...


Thanks. I saw the running times on page 2 and the description that it runs "Montreal - Ottawa - Toronto - ... - Vancouver", so assumed it was one train running the whole route.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Aug 16, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, how did the "Continental Limited" get from Toronto to Montreal in about four hours? Doesn't the Ocean take about a day to do a similar trip?
> ...


Also, some VIA corridor trains do run Montreal to Toronto in under five hours.


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## railiner (Aug 16, 2018)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > cpotisch said:
> ...


The Turbo Train ran it in 3 hours, 59 minutes. https://www.mtlblog.com/lifestyle/the-forgotten-montreal-to-toronto-luxury-train


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## cpotisch (Aug 16, 2018)

redacted


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 16, 2018)

railiner said:


> The Turbo Train ran it in 3 hours, 59 minutes. https://www.mtlblog.com/lifestyle/the-forgotten-montreal-to-toronto-luxury-train


Some Turbo Nostalgia from 1967:


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## zephyr17 (Aug 16, 2018)

Was noise a factor? I know that freight turbine engines (the UP's "Big Blows") were hugely noisy, such that they didn't operate them at all in urban areas. They were pretty much restricted to the more remote sections of the Overland Route (Wyoming, Nebraska, etc).


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## railiner (Aug 17, 2018)

I didn't find riding in the dome power car very noisy, at all...no noisier than say a Budd RDC. The turbine engine sound was greatly muted, and probably no louder than the 'whoosh' of air-conditioning in an Amfleet coach. They had the best railfan seats on rails...you could sit directly behind the engineer, or fireman, and see thru the glass panel right over their shoulder, and on thru the windshield...


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 17, 2018)

railiner said:


> ....... They had the best railfan seats on rails...you could sit directly behind the engineer, or fireman, and see thru the glass panel right over their shoulder, and on thru the windshield...


Riding Amtrak's Turbo under the old New Haven catenary through Connecticut...and outside, I don't recall the Turbine noise to be any louder than a HEP unit. Perhaps quieter.


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## railiner (Aug 17, 2018)

Actually, I should have disclosed in my post, that was where I rode them--on the Penn Central though, a couple of years before Amtrak even existed. They made the run from Back Bay Station to Grand Central Terminal in I believe, 3 hours and 55 minutes, over a fairly poor right-of-way. They were capable of 160 mph, but could not get anywhere near that on that line. They did reach that when tested between New Brunswick and Trenton...


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 17, 2018)

Here's the Penn Central Timetable from Back Bay to GCT


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## railiner (Aug 17, 2018)

So...it was only 3 hours, 39 minutes on some trains...my memory was a bit hazy...but how do you like those fares? 'Regular trains' were even lower...





As usual, NS VIA Fan, thanks so much for posting those great items of interest.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 19, 2018)

railiner said:


> So...it was only 3 hours, 39 minutes on some trains...my memory was a bit hazy...but how do you like those fares? 'Regular trains' were even lower...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder what other good things he has in his collection. That could be an interesting off topic thread.


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 19, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > So...it was only 3 hours, 39 minutes on some trains...my memory was a bit hazy...but how do you like those fares? 'Regular trains' were even lower...
> ...


Check out the AU Lounge


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## railiner (Aug 19, 2018)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


I've never been there...do you need a pass to get in?





Just kiddin'....I'm headed over there, shortly...


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## Anderson (Sep 4, 2018)

Randomly, why Back Bay and not South Station? (I know there was an infamous attempt to cut service back to Route 128, but I'm not sure if this was part of such a game)


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## railiner (Sep 4, 2018)

Anderson said:


> Randomly, why Back Bay and not South Station? (I know there was an infamous attempt to cut service back to Route 128, but I'm not sure if this was part of such a game)


I am not sure entirely, but by starting and ending at Back Bay, they could shave off a few minutes in their advertised Boston-New York running time, in an attempt to attract some air shuttle passenger's. Another reason may be to make it easier to get to their maintenance base...not sure of that, either...


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## NS VIA Fan (Sep 5, 2018)

The Turbos were maintained at United Aircraft in Providence RI so it was a bit closer (but only by a couple of miles!) Shortly afterwards.....they were serving South Station


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## railiner (Sep 5, 2018)

NS VIA Fan said:


> The Turbos were maintained at United Aircraft in Providence RI so it was a bit closer (but only by a couple of miles!) Shortly afterwards.....they were serving South Station


Thanks....I kind of remembered there was something like that to do with it, but forgot the details...


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