# MNRR / LIRR Long Term plans and Proposals - 2050



## Nexis4Jersey (Feb 2, 2011)

I copied and pasted it form another site , as i'm too lazy to type it on this site..

*MNRR / LIRR*

Current system size : 988

added miles of Electrified Rail : 862

added miles of Diesel Rail : 462

Daily Ridership : 628,000 (projected 2030 ridership > 1.2 million)

Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor : 500-3,000 Rail Commuters

Low Commute Corridor : 3-15,000 daily Rail Commuters

Medium Commute Corridor : 15-30,000 daily Rail Commuters

High Commute Corridor : 30-80,000 daily Rail Commuters

High Density Commute Corridor : 85,000+ Rail Commuters

HLP = High Level Platforms

NOP = No Parking

*Current System*

Hudson line - High Commute Corridor

Harlem line - High Commute Corridor

New Haven line - High Density Commute Corridor 

Waterbury Branch - Low Commute Corridor 

New Canaan Branch - Low Commute Corridor

Danbury Branch - Low Commute Corridor

Port Jervis line - Low Commute Corridor

Pascack Valley line - Low Commute Corridor

Port Washington Branch - High Commute Corridor 

Oyster Bay Branch - Low Commute Corridor

The rest of LIRR line ridership is NA

*MNRR Current & Long Term Plans and proposals - 2040 plan*

*LIRR Long Term Plans and Proposals - 2050 plans*

*New Haven line extension to Penn Station*

*High Commute Corridor*

 

This line extension would include stations in Co-Op City , Parkchester , Hunts Point. This line would come after the ESA project opens , since the LIRR will be leaving alot of slots at NYP. This line would give people in the Eastern part a faster , yet slightly more expensive way into Manhattan. I proposed a station in queens which would make sense for Commuters wishing to transfer to Subway Services in Queens / Brooklyn. I noticed Amtrak is 4 tracking and upgrading the line south of New Rochelle.

*Hudson line extension to Penn Station*

*Medium Commute Corridor*

 

This line would act as an Alt to GCT and give Hudson line riders another way into Midtown. This line just like the New Haven extension would come after the ESA project is completed. Stations for this line would include , West 62nd Street Station , 125th Street Station , and my proposal would be a Dyckman Street Station. 

*Restoration of the West Shore line*

*High Commute Corridor*

 

This line would serve one of the highest commuting regions of the NYC region. The line would run form Hoboken to Kingston,NY and give Rail Access to an Estimated 470,000. Although Ridership wouldn't be that high , the line would serve cities like Jersey City , Teaneck , New Burgh and Kingston and numerous large towns. The line would be used by between 40-60,000 daily and be powered by a 3rd Rail due to Freight operations and Catenary issues. That would mean every station would have to be High Level Platform or HLP. A New area of Hoboken Terminal would have to built for this line. The line itself would need 2 Separate tracks form the freight trains to handle the massive commuter crush. The line would have stops @ Jersey City Heights / Secaucus Road /NOP , Light Rail Transit Center in North Bergen , Ridgefield Park , Cedar lane / Teaneck , Bergenfield , Haworth , Harrington Park , Tappan , Valley Cottage , Haverstraw , Stony Point , Bear Mountain Zoo / Park , Highland Falls , West Point , Cornwall on Hudson , Newburgh , Milton , Kingston. This line would probably be restored in phases to save $$$.

*Restoration of the Graham line*

*Low Commute Corridor*

 

This line would serve a growing congested section of Orange County. It was a mistake to end service on this branch.....the population has since exploded. The ROW is still intact meaning it can be restored although NIMBY's would be a huge issue , this line would probably get 2x the amount of commuters of the PJ line due to were it goes through the cores instead of the outskirts. DMU's would be the choice of this line and replace of the push - Pulls due to there cost saving benefits and faster accelerations.. There also less noisy... Stations would be located @ Harrimen / NOP , Monroe , Chester , Goshen , Downtown Middletown / NOP , and West Middletown

*Restoration of the Beacon line*

*Low Commute Corridor*

 

This line would serve a growing part of the NYC region , it would act as a connector between Hudson , Harlem , Danbury , and Waterbury lines. TOD generated by this line would create a ridership spike.....although Ridership would be low it would still be enough to justify a line. But this would not come this or even the next decade , probably sometime in the 2030s. Stations would include Beacon Town Center / NOP , Fishkill , Brinckernoff , Hopewell JCT , Brewster , Danbury , Newton , and Shelton.

*Danbury line Electrification & Extension*

*Low Commute Corridor*

 

This kinda explains itself , but the Danbury is growing in Ridership. If everything goes well with all the projects planned along the line in Norwalk , Georgetown , Danbury ridership without a doubt soar as it has on other lines. Most will be commuting to NYC , but a growing number will start to reverse commute up to Danbury along with other lines in the region. Newer Stations would be in Downtown Norwalk / NOP , Factory pond in Georgetown , Brookfield , and New Milford.

*I-287 Rail Corridor - Light Rail*

*High Commute Corridor*

 

This line would connect High Employment areas of Westchester County with the West of the Hudson counties and Northern NJ. It would also serve the growing populations of Rockland , Bergen , and Westchester Counties , and give a new route into Manhattan for 10000s of commuters. Aka it would be a New ARC. White Plains is expecting to explode with a ton of new projects this decade mostly high rises making I-287 and other highways very congested. The line would mostly be underground and would face grade issues on the Rockland county side , but these could be over come with Newer Technologies and lighter trains via a FRA waiver. Stations would probably be located at Suffern , Airmont , Nanuet , Palisades Mall , South Nyack , Tarrytown , Fairview , White Plains Transit Center , Downtown White Plains , Manhattanville College / Purchase , Rye Brook and Port Chester Transit Station. It wouldn't be like a typical light rail line , but more like the Riverline in terms of station spacing. 

*Stewart Airport Branch of the Port Jervis line*

*Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor*

 

It kinda explains itself , this airport will one day become the new EWR or JFK. So an Airport line will one day be needed. Probably not for a decade or 2 but one day it will be. 

*Electrification of the whole LIRR system*

Thats Self Explanatory , although i think the Montauk branch should be a High level DMU line and not a EMU line due to low ridership. 

*Restoration of the Full Hempstead line*

*Low Commute Corridor*

 

This would provide a fast alt to part of the Main line and would allow trains to be re-routed if there were a disaster on the Main or Babylon line. It would also service a dense corridor and College , the ROW is still intact for the most part. Although a New Bridge would have to be built over the Meadowbrook State Parkway.

*Restoration of the Wading River line*

*Low Commute Corridor*

 

Since the ending of service East of PJS , the area has exploded in growth. Restoration of the Wading River Branch would take pressure off NY 25A commuters trying to get to PJS and would allow for even more commuters who normally wouldn't take the LIRR to NYC.

*Restoration of the Sunset Branch *

*High Commute Corridor* 

 

This line would be part 1 of closing the gaps in the subway system in the outer boroughs. The line would start in Jamaica and head east on the Atlantic Branch till it hit East New York where it would turn South on an Industrial line , it would follow that to Sunset park area of Brooklyn or the Docks of Brooklyn. There would be a Ferry Terminal which would have shuttle Ferries to Jersey or SI.

*Proposed LIRR Core line *

*High Density Commute Corridor*

 

It would serve as a bypass to going into Manhattan to switch other Transit services for Central Jerseyites , Staten Islanders and Brooklyn and Queens Residents. It would start off in Midtown Elizabeth , then head east under Newark Bay in a Immersed Tunnel , then stay Underground in Bayonne where it would have at least one stop , then head over to St. Gorges Ferry Terminal where it would have a stop there. It would need go under New York Harbor in another Immersed Tunnel , all 3 Tunnels would be twin tubed. Once in Brooklyn it would merge with the Sunset park line and ride that past the Atlantic Branch to Elmhurst where it would merge with the Main line and go to Grand Central.

*NY 25 Streetcar / Light Rail*

*High Commute Corridor*

 

This line would serve a densely populated area of LI that is undeserved by Transit and is growing. The line in wider parts of NY25 would be in the Median , in narrower spots it would share with traffic... There isn't really a stigma against trains on LI so this line if ever built would probably be used by a decent amount compared to the buses.

*Proposed 3 North - South Light Rail / Streetcars*

*Medium Commute Corridor*

 

These would act like connectors between the LIRR system and serve semi dense corridors. These lines generate Dense Developments aswell as Smart Growth.

*Proposed LGA Airport Train*

 

It would connect of the Terminals at LGA and then head south along the Median ROW on the GCP and then on the BQE similar to the JFK Airtrain. The line would then break off to go Northeast Corridor ride that Queens Junction Station.

*Queens Junction Station*

This Station would serve as another Jamaica Station in the sense that it would join all the LIRR lines in one spot. It would serve as the Terminus for the LGA Airtrain and the MNRR New Haven line Extension and the last stop on LIRR before Penn or Grand Central Station. There would also be a moving sidewalk for passengers wishing to connect to the E,M & R trains aswell as Buses.

So what do you think of the plans ?, i got great reviews form the engineers / operators on the other sites.


----------



## jis (Feb 2, 2011)

Nexis4Jersey said:


> *Restoration of the Graham line*
> 
> *Low Commute Corridor*
> 
> ...


Surely someone has got their _Main Line_ and _Graham Line_ mixed up  It is the _Graham Line_ that currently has service in the form of the _NJT/MNRR Port Jervis Line_. It is the _Main Line_ that does not have service and indeed does not exist for significant distances between Harriman and Otisville, having been overrun by suburban development. My guess is that restoration of service on that portion of _Main Line_ would be quite cost prohibitive and more so as time passes. The ROW has not been rail-banked AFAIK. OTOH an LRT line connecting with the heavy rail line at Harriman might be fesible and cost justifiable along that corridor someday, and possibly more appropriate through town centers.



> *Proposed LIRR Core line *
> 
> *High Density Commute Corridor*
> 
> ...


My fearless prediction. Pigs will fly before that one will come to pass. 

What is more likely is an Amtrak deep tunnel from NJ then under Manhattan emerging somewhere in Westchester county. At least it is mentioned in the Amtrak HSR plan.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 2, 2011)

Nexis4Jersey said:


> I noticed Amtrak is 4 tracking and upgrading the line south of New Rochelle.[/color]


Amtrak is doing no such thing. The ROW has room for 4 tracks because it was built with 4 tracks originally. But it's been 2 tracks now for a while and except for the Hell Gate Bridge where freight uses a third track, it will remain 2 tracks. Amtrak has no need for 4 tracks in this area, even if MN were to start sending trains from New Haven into Penn. Except for times when a train is late or laying down, Amtrak could run everything it currently runs with just 1 track.

And in fact, they've been doing that while they update the existing catenary structures. But it should be noted that while they're putting in more supports and new hangers, they are not putting in constant tension cat.



Nexis4Jersey said:


> *Queens Junction Station*
> 
> This Station would serve as another Jamaica Station in the sense that it would join all the LIRR lines in one spot. It would serve as the Terminus for the LGA Airtrain and the MNRR New Haven line Extension and the last stop on LIRR before Penn or Grand Central Station. There would also be a moving sidewalk for passengers wishing to connect to the E,M & R trains aswell as Buses.


Any such station that allowed trains from GCT would be way too close to the Woodside station and too far from the E, M, & R trains. Not to mention that there might not even be enough room between where the Hell Gate line merges into the LIRR line and the interlocking that will take GCT trains off the main line.

Besides, the LIRR is already planning to build a station right by Queens Blvd as part of ESA, but it will only serve trains bound for Penn. So now you'd have 3 stations in less than 2 miles. We're running a commuter service here, not a subway.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Feb 2, 2011)

Excluding the possibility of a 7 to Secaucus (and after listening to Steve Lancet and Joe Versagi demonstrate a complete lack of recognition of the congestion problems between Port Authority and Grand Central inherent to the change, I'm dodgy about it) I can't imagine what any MTA operation would have any business running into New Jersey, let alone as far away from New York as Elizabeth. Some of the LIRR restoration might make a bit of sense.

By the way, any operation into Penn Station over Spuyten Duyvil would be a massively expensive one. The entire line would have to be double tracked, which would require a massive amount of expenditure, due to the nature of tunneling that would need to be done. And all operation of MetroNorth into Penn is premised on the idea that LIRR will be giving up Penn Station slots. At least according to LIRR's vehement insistences, this is not so.

Joe Clift, who knows more than a little about LIRR, told me that LIRRs ESA had more to do with moving Flatbush Avenue and Long Island City trains into Manhattan than anything involving accommodating MetroNorth in Penn Station


----------



## jis (Feb 2, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> By the way, any operation into Penn Station over Spuyten Duyvil would be a massively expensive one. The entire line would have to be double tracked, which would require a massive amount of expenditure, due to the nature of tunneling that would need to be done. And all operation of MetroNorth into Penn is premised on the idea that LIRR will be giving up Penn Station slots. At least according to LIRR's vehement insistences, this is not so.


On the issue of double tracking the Empire connection, most of it is already double tracke, thanks to a Schumer maneuver in the Senate which got the entire project funded many years back. The only single track segments are CP Empire to Penn A interlocking through the single track tunnel, and from CP Inwood to the Metro North connection across the Spuyten Duyvil bridge. Neither of those need to be double tracked for running say 5 or 6 trains an hour each way. Beyond that, putting in a second track from CP Empire to the West Side Yard lead should not be that expensive - there really is no tunneling to be done. Just a non load bearing wall has to be knocked down. Double tracking across the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge should not be that expensive either.

As for intenecine bickering between LIRR and MNRR, the Governor of New York can fix that very very quickly if he so chooses. And typically at least some Governors of New York seem to be way more competent than any we have had the good fortune of coming across in NJ.


----------



## MattW (Feb 2, 2011)

What exactly would MNCR run into Penn via the Empire Connection? From where I'm sitting, the only option would be to run P32s either borrowed from Amtrak (yea, likely) or specially modified to run into Penn on the LIRR's third rail. Unless they're planning to convert all the third rail in the area to one or the other type, or run 25KV Catenary up the Hudson line to allow M8s (or M2/M4/M6s if they're still around) to operate on the line, I can see diesels as the only way for MNCR to get into NYP.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Feb 2, 2011)

IIRC, Metro-North was playing with the ideal of dual mode shoes. Don't ask me how they work or any of that. I have no idea.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 2, 2011)

jis said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, any operation into Penn Station over Spuyten Duyvil would be a massively expensive one. The entire line would have to be double tracked, which would require a massive amount of expenditure, due to the nature of tunneling that would need to be done. And all operation of MetroNorth into Penn is premised on the idea that LIRR will be giving up Penn Station slots. At least according to LIRR's vehement insistences, this is not so.
> ...


Spuyten Duyvil Bridge was built to handle two tracks, even though only one remains. So it's really a matter of just laying down more track and perhaps a switch or two on the northern, MN side of the bridge. Which as you say, wouldn't be all that expensive.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 2, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> IIRC, Metro-North was playing with the ideal of dual mode shoes. Don't ask me how they work or any of that. I have no idea.


That's news to me, and Dutch is on record here regarding the problems with such an endevor. And frankly I have to agree with him, as I can't imagine how they could ever hope to do that. Those shoes are spring loaded, something needed to keep the shoe in contact with the rail. I can't conceive of how you could effectively have two springs, one pulling up for when running into GCT and one pulling down for running into Penn.

Perhaps a way could be found to mount two separate shoes and then retract them when they aren't needed.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 2, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> And all operation of MetroNorth into Penn is premised on the idea that LIRR will be giving up Penn Station slots. At least according to LIRR's vehement insistences, this is not so.


The LIRR isn't giving up any slots when ESA is completed, because they own the slots at Penn. They paid Amtrak for those slots permanently. This is not to say that the LIRR cannot lease those slots out to their sister agency or even NJT, if NJT could figure out how to benefit from it and find the money to pay for it.

But the ESA plan from the LIRR specifically details just how many fewer trains the LIRR will initially run into Penn, once ESA is operational. The LIRR does expect over the next 20 to 30 years that they will have to gradually build things back up at Penn as more and more people do start commuting to the city via the LIRR. But the plan doesn't envision ever returning to the current service levels at Penn, once ESA is on line. Mind you, the plan didn't look more than 20 or 30 years into the future IIRC. So that isn't to say that in 50 years, if we're all still alive and debating things that the LIRR might well be back to current service levels at Penn by that point in time.

Of course in 50 years I'll be 100, if I actually make it that far (something not likely based upon my family history), so who knows if I'll even be coherent enough to debate anything much less turn on my computer. :lol:


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Feb 2, 2011)

jis said:


> Nexis4Jersey said:
> 
> 
> > *Restoration of the Graham line*
> ...


Its always nice to dream though , we need a bypass line to go around the core for Freight and Passenger Rail. I do see something like this being built in my lifetime... There needs to a Railway to relive the congestion of I278 which quickly becoming one of the worst highways in the region. I wasn't aware that was the main , sometimes i don't do research the names of the Railway. But they need to do something to that corridor its quickly becoming jammed....


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Feb 2, 2011)

Form what i heard Donald Trump would pay half the cost of the Hudson line extension and it would 3rd Rail powered. The Hudson line would benefit his Developments in the 60s.... The Trump Developments are = to Co-Op city and Park Chester so that mean alot of ppl would be added to this line and given an alt to the congested subway.


----------



## Train2104 (Feb 2, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > IIRC, Metro-North was playing with the ideal of dual mode shoes. Don't ask me how they work or any of that. I have no idea.
> ...


IIRC, the M8's have dual-mode shoes, but the pilot cars won't have them, only the production ones.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Feb 2, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > IIRC, Metro-North was playing with the ideal of dual mode shoes. Don't ask me how they work or any of that. I have no idea.
> ...


With all due respect, I don't think Dutch knows as much as he likes people to think he does. Working for Metro North and being a mechanical engineer are two different things.

Which is a sentiment I have had for years and generally hold my tongue on. But quoting him as a reason why something is technically unpractical is a little much.

Beyond that, it was no less a man than Albert Einstein that said something to the effect of, "If a young scientist says something is possible, he is likely right. If an old scientist says something is impossible, he is very likely wrong." So even if he does have the technical background to render such an opinion with an iota of credibility, I still say it means little.



Nexis4Jersey said:


> Form what i heard Donald Trump would pay half the cost of the Hudson line extension and it would 3rd Rail powered. The Hudson line would benefit his Developments in the 60s.... The Trump Developments are = to Co-Op city and Park Chester so that mean alot of ppl would be added to this line and given an alt to the congested subway.


Donald... Trump paying for something like that? Dude, there is a difference between dreaming and psychosis. You're breaching it.


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Feb 2, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
> ...


If he gets something out of it , why wouldn't he invest in it? Hes a businessman , he makes smart decisions....


----------



## AlanB (Feb 3, 2011)

Nexis4Jersey said:


> Form what i heard Donald Trump would pay half the cost of the Hudson line extension and it would 3rd Rail powered. The Hudson line would benefit his Developments in the 60s.... The Trump Developments are = to Co-Op city and Park Chester so that mean alot of ppl would be added to this line and given an alt to the congested subway.


Whether or not the Donald is willing to pay for such a thing is irrelevant. It doesn't help!

MN still uses an under-running third rail and so once the train reaches Penn Station where the LIRR's over-running third rails exist, the train will lose power and break off all of it's third rail shoes.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 3, 2011)

Train2104 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
> ...


The M8's will not have dual-mode shoes, as no such thing exists.

The M8's however are dual-mode trains, they will be able to run off of third rail or catenary, which is what I think you're thinking of.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 3, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
> ...


With the exception of our current discussion regarding the Park Avenue tunnels, I've never found Dutch to be wrong about things related to MN. And even now I'm not saying that he is wrong regarding the Park Ave tunnels, just that it doesn't make sense to me with the facts at hand.

However, I wasn't quoting him in my statement, even though he has said similar things in the past. Yes, there may well be a way around such a problem, but it won't be easy and it may not even be cost effective to consider it. However, until ESA is complete and until it is absolutely determined that the LIRR will indeed lease spots to MN, there is no reason for anyone at MN to be working on shoes that could work on both under-running and over-running third rails. MN has no reason to waste money on something that they don't presently need.


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Feb 3, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Nexis4Jersey said:
> 
> 
> > Form what i heard Donald Trump would pay half the cost of the Hudson line extension and it would 3rd Rail powered. The Hudson line would benefit his Developments in the 60s.... The Trump Developments are = to Co-Op city and Park Chester so that mean alot of ppl would be added to this line and given an alt to the congested subway.
> ...


That 3rd Rail issue didn't even come to my mind.....why do they use 2 different 3rd Rails types?


----------



## Long Train Runnin' (Feb 3, 2011)

Nexis4Jersey said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Nexis4Jersey said:
> ...


They were built as 2 different railroads during the time of construction I'm sure no one ever dreamed that the two railroads would be owned and operated by the same state sponsored agency. They were in competition with each other.


----------



## jis (Feb 3, 2011)

AlanB said:


> The M8's will not have dual-mode shoes, as no such thing exists.
> 
> The M8's however are dual-mode trains, they will be able to run off of third rail or catenary, which is what I think you're thinking of.


For the New Haven Line to Penn what I have heard is that they will use dedicated M9s with overruning third rail shoes, and extend third rail to CP Gate. M9s will run on overhead power to CP Gate and transition to overruning 3rd rail there.

For Hudson Line the only thing that seems practical (without spending gobs of money) is to have a few dedicated P32ACDMs with retractable overruning shoes to run push pulls (POU - NYP), just like the Amtrak P32ACDMs. Changing from overruning to underrunning shoes and vice versa in shop is not that difficult or time consuming.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 3, 2011)

jis said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The M8's will not have dual-mode shoes, as no such thing exists.
> ...


Interesting! Why would they not run on the overhead cat? That seems easier and it keeps the cars compatible with the M8's, should they need to divert to GCT.



jis said:


> For Hudson Line the only thing that seems practical (without spending gobs of money) is to have a few dedicated P32ACDMs with retractable overruning shoes to run push pulls (POU - NYP), just like the Amtrak P32ACDMs. Changing from overruning to underrunning shoes and vice versa in shop is not that difficult or time consuming.


Agreed.


----------



## jis (Feb 3, 2011)

AlanB said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Because the M8s are incapable of operating under 25Hz without melting down their main transformer and producing the requisite pyrotechnics  . 60Hz ends at CP Gate.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Feb 3, 2011)

jis said:


> Because the M8s are incapable of operating under 25Hz without melting down their main transformer and producing the requisite pyrotechnics  . 60Hz ends at CP Gate.


Excuse me, Jishnu, and I might be off because for whatever reason the bottle of Plymouth was even better than usual, but I coulda sworn the M8s were specifically designed to run all the way from Penn to New London. Or am I thinking of something involving SLE through running?


----------



## AlanB (Feb 3, 2011)

jis said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Maybe if Bill happens along he can explain better, but I have to wonder why it's not easier and cheaper to just modify things to handle the 25hz; rather than installing third rail, dealing with retractable shoes, and cutting the flexibility to run to GCT.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 3, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Because the M8s are incapable of operating under 25Hz without melting down their main transformer and producing the requisite pyrotechnics  . 60Hz ends at CP Gate.
> ...


The Cat from New Haven to Boston is 60Hz, not 25Hz. It's not the voltage, it's the frequency that is the problem.


----------



## jis (Feb 4, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Because the M8s are incapable of operating under 25Hz without melting down their main transformer and producing the requisite pyrotechnics  . 60Hz ends at CP Gate.
> ...


Your are thinking SLE through running - GCT to New London. As Alan points out, there is no problem running on Amtrak's 25kV electrification beyond New Haven. That is 60Hz.

Well actually what happened is that originally they were supposed to be capable of running on 25Hz too. but at the last minute to save on cost and weight they downgraded the main transformer to be only 60Hz capable thus making them incapable of running to Penn Station on overhead. Naturally this was just a few months before Governor Rell came out in favor of service to Penn Station.  But by then the deed was done. And besides the Governor did not offer the extra funds needed to change back to the heavier transformers.

They could go back and ask for uprated heavier transformers for some added cost, in a few later delivery slot trains. But that has not been done. Or for even more cost they could retrofit a few with the heavier transformers.

But on the whole, for the level of service contemplated frankly I am somewhat dubious about even the third rail extension idea. They might as well run a few push pull sets with hand me down AEM-7ACs from Amtrak, once Amtrak gets its new Siemens engines. And that is where the whole angle for acquiring more push-pull, perhaps MLVs comes in. The Connecticutians have gotten a taste of the football specials which often consist of a long string of NJT MLVs pulled by ALP-46 and generally their reaction has been quite positive.



AlanB said:


> Maybe if Bill happens along he can explain better, but I have to wonder why it's not easier and cheaper to just modify things to handle the 25hz; rather than installing third rail, dealing with retractable shoes, and cutting the flexibility to run to GCT.


Short term thinking to stay within restricted budgetary situation, while struggling to continue to serve the established primary market adequately under the circumstances. The downgrading of transformers was a pure cost saving move to stay within budget for the number of cars required. The alternative was to cut the number of cars which would of course have made using any of them to Penn Station even less likely.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Feb 4, 2011)

Of course, they could have gone with Alstom and gotten better equipment fully capable for less money.


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Feb 4, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Of course, they could have gone with Alstom and gotten better equipment fully capable for less money.


Alstom makes things cheaper but they tend to break down more or take forever to test....


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Feb 4, 2011)

Kawasaki is just as trouble prone as Alstom products.


----------



## jis (Feb 4, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Of course, they could have gone with Alstom and gotten better equipment fully capable for less money.


How do you know that? Have you been sending out RFPs and getting bids while we were not looking? 

Actually Alstom these days is having a very diffcult time selling their commuter and high speed products outside France. Bombardier, Siemens, Hitachi and others are eating their lunch all over the world. They even lost the bid for the cross Channel new trains to Siemens for new Eurostar trains. The French Government is trying to use every possible bureaucratic trick to try to derail that and force Eurostar to buy what they obviously think is an inferior product. They are quoting safety regulations that are not met by even the current Alstom built Eurostar sets without realizing that they are already in violation of what also turns out to be a totally impractical and untried safety regulation. It is quite funny actually.


----------



## saxman (Feb 19, 2011)

So are there any links to these actual plans? I'm especially interested in the LGA connection. It would have made my commute a whole lot easier. I always thought the Airtrain should be extended from Jamaica up the GCP to LGA.


----------



## AlanB (Feb 19, 2011)

Saxman,

The originally planned monorail would have done just that, continued up the Van Wyck/Grand Cental to LGA. Unfortunately the nimby's killed that plan. Some actual now wish that they hadn't killed the monorail, as the train is much noisier.

That monorail was to have continued on from LGA to Manhattan via the 59th St bridge.


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Mar 28, 2011)

*New York / Western Connecticut *

*Metro North *

*Projects to be completed by 2020*

 

Electrification of the Hudson line to Poughkeepsie 

Replacement of White Plains station

re-electrification of the Danbury line

Croton / New Haven shop upgrades

New Haven Union station canopy over tracks

Spuyten Duyvil Bridge replacement

System wide PTC ingratiation 

M8 Car Purchase 

M8 Bar / Cafe Car replacement

More Sidings / Signal upgrades added to the Waterbury / Danbury line

Replacement of the New Haven line's wires , bridges and stations

Double Decker Cars for Hudson / Harlem line 

Overhaul of Grand Central Terminal platform areas

Downtown Norwalk station

Georgetown Station 

West Haven Station

Fairfield Metro Center

East Stamford

New Milford Danbury line extension 

Hoboken Terminal Overhaul

Hudson / New Haven line Extension to Penn station

*Large Scale Rail Projects *

*Project : New Haven line extension to Penn Station *

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 3

Projected Ridership : 60,000 

*Project : Hudson line extension to Penn Station*

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 3

Projected Ridership : 30,000

*Project : West Shore line*

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 23

Projected Ridership : 60,000 

*Project : Restoration of the Main line*

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 6

Projected Ridership : 8,000

*Project : Restoration of the Beacon line*

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 5

Projected Ridership : 3,000

*Project : Restoration of the Maybrook line*

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 4

Projected Ridership : 2,000

*Project : I 287 Light Rail Corridor*

Number of lines : 2

Stations : 14

Projected Ridership : 90,000 

*Project : Extension of the Port Jervis line to Stewart Airport*

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 2

Projected Ridership : 2,000

*Current System *

*Line : Pascack Valley line*

Length : 30 mi

Stations : 18

Ridership : 6,500 > Projected 2020 Ridership : 11,000

*Line : Port Jervis line*

Length : 95 mi

Stations : 26

Ridership : 7,000 > Projected 2020 Ridership : 9,000

*Line : New Haven line *

Length : 74 mi

Stations : 30

Ridership : 112,000 > Projected 2020 Ridership : 170,000

*Line : New Canaan branch *

Length : 8 mi

Stations : 5

Ridership : 4,000 > Projected 2020 Ridership : 6,000

*Line : Danbury Branch *

Length : 24 mi

Stations : 8

Ridership : 1,200 > Projected 2020 Ridership : 7,000

*Line : Waterbury Branch*

Length : 29

Stations : 7

Ridership : 1,500 > Projected 2020 Ridership : 8,000

*Line : Hudson line*

Length : 74 mi

Stations : 29

Ridership : 47,000 > Projected 2020 Ridership : 73,000

*Line : Harlem line*

Length : 82 mi

Stations : 38

Ridership : 43,000 > Projected 2020 Ridership : 70,000

*If your wondering about the Ridership numbers , they were either taken form the state , a private group , or discussed by Rail fanners and Urban planners via Skype.....were never that off i must say. The New Haven & Hudson lines factor in the proposed connections to Penn station and the feeders services in CT... Transit Oriented development , Growth in the Railway towns , Reverse Commuting and gas prices all are factored into the projections aswell , some TOD sites will add up to 5,000 users to the local station. TOD will play a role in Ridership increases along the Danbury and Waterbury branches and Hudson lines. Reverse commuting & gas prices will play a role in increases along the Pascack Valley & Main / Port Jervis line.*


----------



## Nexis4Jersey (Mar 29, 2011)

*New York *

*Long Island Railroad *

*Projects to be completed by 2020*

Helena Williams resignation or Firing

Signal Upgrades

Track Replacement

Switch Upgrades

Electrification of Central Branch

Electrification of the Port Jefferson Branch

Electrification of the Montauk Branch

Third Tracking of the Main line

East Side Access to Grand Central Terminal

Double Tracking of parts of the Ronkonkoma line

M9 Rail car

Equal Outbound / Inbound Services

*Large Scale Railway Projects *

*Project : Restoration of the Full Hempstead line*

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 4

Projected Ridership : 30,000

*Project : Restoration of the Wading River Branch *

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 3

Projected Ridership : 12,000

*Project : Restoration of the Sunset Park line*

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 11

Projected Ridership : 38,000

*Project : LIRR Core line *

Number of lines : 1

Stations : 17

Projected Ridership : 110,000

*Project : LIRR East Side Access *

Number of lines : 11

Stations : 1

Projected Ridership : 120,000

*Current system...*

*LIRR*

Location : Long Island and Manhattan , Queens and Brooklyn 

Daily Ridership : 341,000 (Projected 2030 Daily Ridership : 570,000+)

System size : 700+ mi

Stations : 124


----------

