# Looking back on the Amtrak Pioneer



## dlagrua (Aug 19, 2016)

Last weekend we were in Cheyenne Wyoming and visited the beautiful and large stone railroad station. It is still in pristine shape and now houses a museum in the former baggage/freight area. The passenger area is still clean well kept and in great condition.. The ticket office lies quiet, the platforms are still there. Despite the 12 tracks in the yard and a double mainline track in front there has been no rail service in Cheyenne, WY for 20 years. The Amtrak Pioneer was the last three day train to serve Cheyenne, Boise, Salt Lake City, Odgen, Portland and Seattle. It also met a connecting train for through service to CHI.

Everyone has been aware of the problems of the Empire Builder route, the constant delays and the often crowded trains. Another train route to Seattle would probably go over well, alleviate congestion and give the people of Wyoming, Southern Idaho , Oregon and Washington new service. A few of the better train stations remain but as I understand it, the Union Pacific has removed many of the smaller stations along the former route to prevent future service. AFAIK, the larger stations at Cheyenne, Boise, and Odgen remain..

When we stood in the Cheyenne Depot we watched as many UP freight trains passed but felt a sense of sadness that many parts of our country are still without rail service. The Amtrak Pioneer was a big loss. A new one is needed.


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## oregon pioneer (Aug 19, 2016)

Agreed. the Pioneer, at Baker City Oregon, was the only train less than three hours from my home. They cancelled it just before Hubby and I were to buy our first coast-to-coast train tickets. In fact, I called in spring to buy the tickets for late fall, and the agent said "You can't do that, the train will not be running by then." We had to drive to Pasco (5 hours) and get on the Empire Builder.


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## jis (Aug 19, 2016)

Suffice it to say that Amtrak _Pioneer _did not really serve _Cheyenne Downtown Station_ ever. It served _Borie WY_ and a bus ride from the _Amslab _from there to _Cheyenne Downtown Station_ and vice-versa. There was a period when the _San Francisco Zephyr_ did serve the _Downtown Station_, but at that time there were no through cars to the _Pioneer_. It was a cross platform transfer at _Ogden_.

I rode the _Pioneer _both before and after the through cars from the _San Francisco Zephyr_ were introduced. Initially it was just a through _Coach_, a year or two later the through _Sleeper _was added. Incidentally, the _Pioneer _had only _Dinette _service for the 24 hour run from _Salt Lake City _to _Seattle _for many many years.

I have also driven around extensively among the hills around _Cheyenne _and _Laramie _- still do on occasions. A close friend of mine had her family in _Laramie_, and I go to _Fort Collins CO_ on many occasions to the HPE Labs there, and usually have weekends free to explore the Colorado and Wyoming Rockies.

_Ogden _now has the _UTA Front Runner_ station that is in active use with many trains calling there each day. The station in _Boise _is no longer reachable apparently from the west, and will involve a somewhat inconvenient backup move to get to or get out of. And finally, even if the _Pioneer _is re-introduced through Wyoming it is likely that it will call at _Borie _WY _Amslab _with a bus connection to the _Cheyenne Downtown Station_. Another fly in the ointment apparently is that the crossover that was used by the _Pioneer _to get from _Portland Union Station_ (after crossing the _Steel Bridge_) onto the UP line headed east has been removed. Without reinstating that no train can easily get from _Portland Union Station _to the _Boise Line_ any more.


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## railiner (Aug 20, 2016)

The SFZ, and the Pioneer later on, also served Greeley, Co, a city with close to 100,000 population. Home to University of Northern Colorado, and closest Amtrak station to Fort Collins and Loveland....

I remember at least one occasion when the SFZ was detoured around Denver due to a freight derailment on the BN line from Fort Morgan to Denver...Number 5 was backed up from Brush to Union on a freight only BN route, then used the UP former City of Denver line from Union to LaSalle, (now gone). It stopped at the UP station in Fort Morgan, about a half mile or so north of the BN-Amtrak station. They could have then gone down the UP into Denver, but to save time, they turned North at LaSalle and made Greeley the "Denver stop", and bused passengers to and from Denver. They sent station forces from Denver up to Greeley to assist the lone agent there work the train. The train was only about an hour and a half late leaving Greeley, and by the time it arrived in Ogden, it was just about on time....

That was a different UP in those years....


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## dlagrua (Aug 20, 2016)

AFAIK the only train that still stops at the Cheyenne WY depot, is the once a year UP Big Boy steam passenger train that routes from Denver to Cheyenne. Tickets are $300 each (available by lottery) and the run is an all day affair. As for Amtrak at Cheyenne, it might take a miracle to restore Amtrak service there but there is always the possibility of a new commuter line.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 20, 2016)

AFAIK Big Boy isn't operational yet, are you talking about #844 & #3985? Or can you just buy advanced tickets?


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## Eric S (Aug 20, 2016)

Commuter service to/from Cheyenne? In my opinion that's much less likely than Amtrak long distance service, which is itself rather unlikely.

Perhaps some sort of Front Range intercity corridor service someday, though. But even then, population begins to drop off pretty significantly north of Fort Collins so any sort of Fort Collins to Cheyenne extension of service would probably rank rather far down the list of priorities for a future Front Range corridor.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 20, 2016)

As we've discussed several times in previous threads about the Zephyr, if and even the current Route through the Rockies from Denver to Salt Lake is abandoned by UP, and Amtrak and Colorado don't have the money to maintain it,the Zephyr will be rerouted over the old UP Route from Denver to Cheyenne,then across Wyoming on the Overland Route.

This currently happens when the Zephyr is rerouted for various problems in the Rockies, with no stops except at Green River for a Crew Change.

But as jis has said, it won't call @ Cheyenne Union Station,but stop in the boonies outside of town with a Bus bridge to Union Station.


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## jis (Aug 20, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> As we've discussed several times in previous threads about the Zephyr, if and even the current Route through the Rockies from Denver to Salt Lake is abandoned by UP, and Amtrak and Colorado don't have the money to maintain it,the Zephyr will be rerouted over the old UP Route from Denver to Cheyenne,then across Wyoming on the Overland Route.
> 
> This currently happens when the Zephyr is rerouted for various problems in the Rockies, with no stops except at Green River for a Crew Change.
> 
> But as jis has said, it won't call @ Cheyenne Union Station,but stop in the boonies outside of town with a Bus bridge to Union Station.


Moreover, it will also not stop at Ogden and then proceed to Salt lake City, since there is no simple way for it to do so any more, without a backup move. It will proceed straight on the southern leg of the wye at Ogden to Salt Lake City. You will be able to see the Ogden UTA station to your right as you turn left to head towards Salt Lake City when going west on the CZ. Indeed we have done that a few times during diversions on the Overland Route.


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## Anthony V (Aug 20, 2016)

The 2009 study for bringing back the Pioneer grossly underestimated ridership and inflated costs. This is because it failed to take into account the many changes that have occurred in the region the train ran through since its final run in May 1997. AFA serving Boise, ID, it's the track east of the depot that is out of service. The track west of there is still used by a short-line railroad. The out-of-service portion is owned by the City of Boise for preservation of the possibility of passenger service returning and therefore the tracks are still in place, although they would need to be completely upgraded to be able to handle Amtrak trains again. In fact, history of the Boise Cutoff shows that it was built primarily for use by passenger trains, and it was with the discontinuance of the Pioneer that use of the eastern half of the "Boise Cutoff" ended.

The track connection in Portland from Union Station to UP's Pacific Northwest line was severed around 2005, but could be easily put back in with minimal costs to do so, as it would be simply a matter of installing a crossover between the two appropriate tracks east of the Steel Bridge.


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## jis (Aug 20, 2016)

Thanks for clarifying the Boise situation. I am afraid I got it backwards.


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## dlagrua (Aug 21, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> AFAIK Big Boy isn't operational yet, are you talking about #844 & #3985? Or can you just buy advanced tickets?


Yes, "I jumped the gun" . It is the one day Denver to Cheyenne UP steam excursion that I was referring to. The Big Boy may be on this route when the restoration is complete. That would be something to see.


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## railiner (Aug 22, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> As we've discussed several times in previous threads about the Zephyr, if and even the current Route through the Rockies from Denver to Salt Lake is abandoned by UP, and Amtrak and Colorado don't have the money to maintain it,the Zephyr will be rerouted over the old UP Route from Denver to Cheyenne,then across Wyoming on the Overland Route.
> 
> This currently happens when the Zephyr is rerouted for various problems in the Rockies, with no stops except at Green River for a Crew Change.
> 
> But as jis has said, it won't call @ Cheyenne Union Station,but stop in the boonies outside of town with a Bus bridge to Union Station.


I wonder if It did happen, if Amtrak would even bother with having an agent at Cheyenne, as well as the chartered bus to and from the station at Borie....it would be costly, and serve few revenue passengers.

Think Maricopa and Phoenix, for example...


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## neroden (Aug 24, 2016)

It's all soooo low-population. Can we restore service from Ft Collins - Loveland - Longmont - Boulder - Denver first? It would carry way more people. And all the cities along that route seem gung-ho in favor (unlike Greeley, unfortunately). Service to Cheyenne downtown would be a highly viable extension and probably easier than building a layover in Fort Collins.


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 24, 2016)

neroden said:


> ... service from Ft Collins - Loveland - Longmont - Boulder - Denver first? ... Service to Cheyenne downtown would be a highly viable extension and probably easier than building a layover in Fort Collins.


Start tomorrow planning, funding, building this stub of a Front Range line. At the rate Denver is sprawling, by the time the Denver-Ft Collins segment is finished, Cheyenne's population will be booming, like Ft Collins is today. LOL.


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## railiner (Aug 24, 2016)

Lets see if the Denver RTD gets commuter trains going to Boulder and Longmont....then perhaps they could entice Larimer County to join the District, and offer to extend the trains to them....

Not sure if Amtrak would even get involved unless they did restore the Pioneer, and shift its operation over to this BNSF line rather than its historic UP route thru Greeley....

Amtrak trains in the past have been detoured over the BN line on a few occasions, but it took a serious delay due to much lower speed limits (including the street running thru Fort Collins) among other things....


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 24, 2016)

If we're gonna wade into the _Pioneer_ and the _Sacajawea_ (a.k.a. North Coast Hiawatha) once more, Please go read the Amtrak studies.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/850/229/PioneerServiceStudy.pdf

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/492/133/NorthCoastHiawathaServiceStudy.pdf

At least skim all the way thru the Appendices. Then I promise that I'll weigh in on it in a day or two.


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## neroden (Aug 26, 2016)

Sadly, Larimer County, Loveland, and Ft. Collins have been pushing for passenger train service to Denver for decades but it just hasn't gotten anywhere yet.


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## jis (Aug 26, 2016)

neroden said:


> Sadly, Larimer County, Loveland, and Ft. Collins have been pushing for passenger train service to Denver for decades but it just hasn't gotten anywhere yet.


It could happen sooner if they happen to join the RTD compact and push for it instead of just howling in the winds up Estes Park into the Rockies  , But they have not exactly jumped on board yet.


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## railiner (Aug 27, 2016)

jis said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly, Larimer County, Loveland, and Ft. Collins have been pushing for passenger train service to Denver for decades but it just hasn't gotten anywhere yet.
> ...


I agree, but up to now, Larimer County probably doesn't see much benefit in joining the District. They would be contributing a lot more via the RTD tax, than they would get back in services...


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## jis (Aug 27, 2016)

Yeah, I expect that things may start looking more imminent, enough for them to at least start considering to join, after the RTD rail service gets to Boulder. There should be a way to get the taxation level adjusted to be commensurate with the service one gets in return.


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## dlagrua (Sep 3, 2016)

Yes I believe that the best chance for having train service to Ft Collins, Greeley and Cheyenne lies with future expansion of the light rail line in Denver. Amtrak service is a long shot at this point. If you look across the USA the light rail/commuter lines around the major cities have been where the expansion of train service has been occurring. On the other hand Amtrak has been shrinking.


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## jis (Sep 3, 2016)

I don't think any light rail will ever go beyond Fort Collins, and definitely not all the way to Cheyenne.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Sep 3, 2016)

I think it is highly unlikely light rail will reach either Ft. Collins or Cheyenne, but commuter rail is a strong possibility in Ft. Collins and could eventually reach Cheyenne. Denver to Cheyenne is about 100 miles, about the same as the San Bernardino-Oceanside Metrolink line. Another possiblity is an Amtrak regional corridor, which could stretch as far south as Pueblo of farther.


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## Eric S (Sep 3, 2016)

I agree. Light rail to Cheyenne - never happening. To Fort Collins - extremely unlikely.

However, commuter rail to Fort Collins - possibly. Right now commuter rail is only proposed as far as Longmont. If/when Longmont is reached, an extension to Loveland and Fort Collins wouldn't be unreasonable. Beyond that, though, and it's really more intercity than commuter rail. (Having said that, intercity does not necessarily mean operated by Amtrak.)


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## railiner (Sep 3, 2016)

As much as the Front Range is growing, if commuter rail did extend to Fort Collins, the population would really explode...a good place to invest in realty...

As for extending to Cheyenne, that is very unlikely, at least for a very long time. I suppose the RTD could do it, with contributions from Wyoming for support. Similar to NJ Transit serving NY and Pa....


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Sep 5, 2016)

Eric S said:


> However, commuter rail to Fort Collins - possibly. Right now commuter rail is only proposed as far as Longmont. If/when Longmont is reached, an extension to Loveland and Fort Collins wouldn't be unreasonable.


Not follow the commuter rail proposal in Colorado, but totally flabbergasted that there is no plans to hook Loveland and Fort Collins with Denver. These two city would make a natural fit in a regional commuter system. Loveland in particular has had massive grown in the last ten years. It's a bit messy type of growth but house projects and commercial development are everywhere now. A commuter station with park and ride lot would fit nicely.


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## jis (Sep 5, 2016)

Unfortunately, the developments in Loveland and Fort Collins have very little to do with Denver. The roots of their development go back to HP and several other high tech companies and their ancillary related folks setting up shop there, with very little connection with Denver or need to go to Denver, other than to the Airport. The new E route that skirts around outside Denver to connect to the interstate pretty much serves their needs. That is why there is no big push from them to pay additional taxes and join up into the Denver system yet. Yes, it might happen some day after the commuter rail system reaches Longmont. But don't waste your energy getting flabbergasted without realizing what the realities on the ground are around there.Afterall, Loveland and Fort Collins have to want to pay for the service. It won;t be somthing that is paid out of love by Denver and the RTD compact.


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## Gulfwind2 (Sep 5, 2016)

Keep in mind that anything crossing state lines will need to be go through studies, public hearings, blah blah blah, etc. for Wyoming. That could be a potential deal breaker for commuter service north of the state line. But perhaps with some cooperation from Uncle Pete, the Wyoming state legislature may oblige in at least providing joint funds with Colorado to study commuter rail.


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