# Steak Lovers Beware!



## jim55

Steak Lovers Beware! I just got off the Texas Eagle on 20 May at Chicago. The night before, I requested the flat iron steak. when it came it looked very good, but one bite and something was wrong. The guy across from me said "did you see the asterick (*) by the flat iron steak on the menue? I had not but roughly what it said was "during high demand, beef shanks (I think) will be substituted during high demand when flat iron steaks are no longer available. Other than that, it was a good trip. Ahead of tme at St Louis but :40 late at Chicago. Jim


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## PetalumaLoco

jim55 said:


> Steak Lovers Beware! I just got off the Texas Eagle on 20 May at Chicago. The night before, I requested the flat iron steak. when it came it looked very good, but one bite and something was wrong. The guy across from me said "did you see the asterick (*) by the flat iron steak on the menue? I had not but roughly what it said was "during high demand, beef shanks (I think) will be substituted during high demand when flat iron steaks are no longer available. Other than that, it was a good trip. Ahead of tme at St Louis but :40 late at Chicago. Jim


Is that for real? Look what wikipedia had to say;

"The beef shank is the shank (or leg) portion of a steer or heifer.

Due to the constant use of this muscle by the animal it tends to be tough, dry, and sinewy, so is best when cooked for a long time in moist heat. As it is very lean, it is widely used to prepare very low-fat ground beef. Due to its lack of sales, it is not often seen at retail. Although, if found in retail, it is very cheap and a low-cost ingredient for beef stock. Beef shank is a common ingredient in soups."

That's a terrible thing for Amtrak to do.


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## Rail Freak

At least they tried to warn ya! :huh:


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## JayPea

I knew there was a reason that I'm not much of a beef eater!


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## Upstate

Is this something new or is just on certain routes? I havn't taken the train yet this year, but I don't remember it from last year on the Crescent and the sample menu online doesn't show the extra note.

I know that if I was in coach and was paying extra for the most expensive meal on the menu I would be pissed, especially if it just randomly showed up without warning. Of course if I was in a sleeper paying for a first class experience I would be pissed as well.


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## Neil_M

Surely they should tell you exactly what it is you are being served? Granted, sometimes things run out and an alternative is offered, but if you are charging $21 for steak, then $21 for what normally becomes dog food is very underhand, and possibly illegal.

In the UK the Trading Standards would be on their case.


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## catblue

I am very picky about my steak. I only like the very lean cuts of steak and I am a well done kind of person but I still expect it to be juicy and tender. I usually stick to Sirloin or New York Strip. So could you describe Flat Iron to me?


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## WhoozOn1st

I've never been victimized by the old switcheroo, but after 3 inedible flatirons on 3 different trains I'll never order an Amsteak again.


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## dart330

WhoozOn1st said:


> I've never been victimized by the old switcheroo, but after 3 inedible flatirons on 3 different trains I'll never order an Amsteak again.


How did you order it cooked? I read a good review on a rare steak, but that was the only one.

I was planning on trying it in a week, prob. medium-rare, but I don't want to be really disappointed. My girlfriend and I are taking our first overnighter in a roomette, hoping everything goes well so she will be up for it again. The food will probably be a big part of that.

Steak and French Toast were what I was planning on.....


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## PetalumaLoco

dart330 said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never been victimized by the old switcheroo, but after 3 inedible flatirons on 3 different trains I'll never order an Amsteak again.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you order it cooked? I read a good review on a rare steak, but that was the only one.
> 
> I was planning on trying it in a week, prob. medium-rare, but I don't want to be really disappointed. My girlfriend and I are taking our first overnighter in a roomette, hoping everything goes well so she will be up for it again. The food will probably be a big part of that.
> 
> Steak and French Toast were what I was planning on.....
Click to expand...

Last fall on the CZ our medium rare flatirons were fine.


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## Rail Freak

After reading all AU Food Critics posts, I too was disappointed in the Flat Iron


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## wayman

Rail Freak said:


> After reading all AU Food Critics posts, I too was disappointed in the Flat Iron


I know I gave the Flat Iron a rave review here, but that was probably around January 2008. I may have the steak on the Silver Star this week in one direction or the other, and if I do I'll be sure to tell you how it compares to my memory. But I'm more excited to try the newer regional menu items on this trip!


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## sportbiker

Think of three playing cards stacked one on top of another. The outer two cards are incredibly tender beef, but the middle card is incredibly tough gristle. The butcher has to make two very precise, large surface area cuts to slice the gristle away from the beef. If the butcher succeeds, the result is like filet mignon; however, any mistake that allows the gristle to remain will ruin the entire cut. A flat iron is a gamble.


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## WhoozOn1st

dart330 said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never been victimized by the old switcheroo, but after 3 inedible flatirons on 3 different trains I'll never order an Amsteak again.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you order it cooked? I read a good review on a rare steak, but that was the only one.
Click to expand...

I always ask for medium, and the Amsteaks were all medium as requested. Bad meat was the problem. Poor quality. USDA Industrial or something.

Amshanks, on the other hand, have been pretty good on several occasions. They're braised. Braising is a low and slow form of cooking that works well for breaking down connective tissues even in tougher cuts, such as shank and brisket. I use liquid braising in the oven for corned beef, and it always comes out falling-apart tender.

I can certainly understand jim55's discomfiture, which would apply to any kinda surprise switch. Asterisk or no, he shoulda been notified as menus were distributed. In my experience the servers have never failed to inform when a dish was no longer available.


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## Casinocim

On my SWC rides this year: In March I ordered the Flat Iron Steak. I had it delivered to my roomette. I ordered medium rare and the middle was raw. I ate around it, no biggie. And then last month I ordered it again, medium, which was still very pink. But aside from all of that, I think the steak has an odd taste to it. The second time I had it and paid for it, I didn't think it was worth it. I won't order the steak again. Go chicken! 

I'm looking forward to another train ride next month on the SWC and get to ride on the Pacific Surfliner also woohoo, can't wait!


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## Amtrak839

I usually get the Amsteak. I've had one or two that have been pretty bad. Overall they've been pretty good though. My Thanksgiving Amsteak on train 97 last year was actually one of the best I've had in a while.


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## Green Maned Lion

I always order with the instructions: "Bloody rare." So far, I have gotten what I asked for and it has been delicious. I like my meat red and juicy in the middle. That's how I cook it on my grill at home, and thats how I order it on Amtrak. I have always loved the flat iron. My girlfriend was mildly disappointed with the one we had on the Capitol Limited a few weeks ago, though.


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## sunchaser

Green Maned Lion said:


> I always order with the instructions: "Bloody rare." So far, I have gotten what I asked for and it has been delicious. I like my meat red and juicy in the middle. That's how I cook it on my grill at home, and thats how I order it on Amtrak. I have always loved the flat iron. My girlfriend was mildly disappointed with the one we had on the Capitol Limited a few weeks ago, though.


I just checked Amtrak's sample menu- there's no info or clue that they are doing any substitution for the Flat Iron Steak.

I hope that there's plenty of steaks available in June.....Won't fool hubby with beef shanks


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## gswager

I've ordered flat iron steak and it was wonderful!


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## jim55

All I can say folks is "I got something other than a flat iron steak". The menue Asterick(*) did give them a license to steal and they did. Who ever at Amtrak level that suggested this shoud be .... I don't think "drawn and quartered" is politicaly correct... so take them out(as Gen Dreedle said) and Sho-- them. What worthless staff come up with these options? JIM


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## Long Train Runnin'

jim55 said:


> All I can say folks is "I got something other than a flat iron steak". The menue Asterick(*) did give them a license to steal and they did. Who ever at Amtrak level that suggested this shoud be .... I don't think "drawn and quartered" is politicaly correct... so take them out(as Gen Dreedle said) and Sho-- them. What worthless staff come up with these options? JIM


Money and maybe the vendor who provides Amtrak wtih food said this summer we won't be able to ensure we can get enough steaks to you for the peak but we can provide these other beef items instead. What's Amtrakt to do? They are kind of powerless, so they add the astrick and hope to keep people happy.


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## Larry H.

Well, another situation where amtrak is unprepared to handle a normal situation. Surly there are beef suppliers other than the one they have contracted with. Worse yet, if they are aware so far out in advance as to actually put it in the menu, then they are really falling down on the procurement job. Kind of like the toilets that every one but amtrak supervisors seem to know are a problem.

I reported at least a year ago that the quality of the Flat Iron Steaks had deteriorated badly on several trips I took. They were certainly not the quality that had been previously provided. Later on we took more trips and the meat seemed to return close to the original standard. Something went wrong with what was provided then as well.

If your running a company and your aware that your unable to provide the listed quality you should be looking for a way to correct it with an equal product not a low quality replacement. Again, what good restaurant chain would get away with this. More of your government in action with lots more to come.


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## sunchaser

Long Train Runnin said:


> jim55 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All I can say folks is "I got something other than a flat iron steak". The menue Asterick(*) did give them a license to steal and they did. Who ever at Amtrak level that suggested this shoud be .... I don't think "drawn and quartered" is politicaly correct... so take them out(as Gen Dreedle said) and Sho-- them. What worthless staff come up with these options? JIM
> 
> 
> 
> Money and maybe the vendor who provides Amtrak wtih food said this summer we won't be able to ensure we can get enough steaks to you for the peak but we can provide these other beef items instead. What's Amtrakt to do? They are kind of powerless, so they add the astrick and hope to keep people happy.
Click to expand...

Amtrak should have a contract with said vendor who provides the food for the trains that (I assume) requires certain foods to be provided, such as 'Railroad French Toast' or 'Flat Iron Steak'. That being said, if the vendor cannot obtain the steaks from their source then they should (or would) seek the missing item(s) from another source.

There is no reason to assume that they would not be able to get the steaks from another source, unless, we have a beef shortage!


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## Upstate

Long Train Runnin said:


> jim55 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All I can say folks is "I got something other than a flat iron steak". The menue Asterick(*) did give them a license to steal and they did. Who ever at Amtrak level that suggested this shoud be .... I don't think "drawn and quartered" is politicaly correct... so take them out(as Gen Dreedle said) and Sho-- them. What worthless staff come up with these options? JIM
> 
> 
> 
> Money and maybe the vendor who provides Amtrak wtih food said this summer we won't be able to ensure we can get enough steaks to you for the peak but we can provide these other beef items instead. What's Amtrakt to do? They are kind of powerless, so they add the astrick and hope to keep people happy.
Click to expand...

But the asterisk doesn't keep people happy, it just gives Amtrak the power to do whatever they want.


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## Shawn

It's Amtrak food...nothing should ever surprise you. For the prices charged on board in the dining car...it's all pretty sad. I always go sleeper, which is good, because I would have a huge problem with the prices.


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## sunchaser

Shawn said:


> It's Amtrak food...nothing should ever surprise you. For the prices charged on board in the dining car...it's all pretty sad. I always go sleeper, which is good, because I would have a huge problem with the prices.


I hope it's a temporary issue-all the more reason to go earlier for dinner. I made a big note on my list weeks ago to get early rezzies for dinner to avoid such things as them running out of selections we may want. I am not pleased with the prices either, and that did figure into going with the sleeper too. That way we don't have to worry about extra $$$ for food. Still expect to have a good time!!!!


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## Cho Cho Charlie

The Flat Iron Steak

Is it really the best cut of Beef?'

It starts off "Though a flavorful and relatively tender cut of meat, the top blade roast has a serious flaw in the middle of it; an impossibly tough piece of connective tissue running through the middle. "

Possibly, some food vendors aren't as good as some others in preparing this cut of beef?


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## caravanman

When in sleeper, I feel duty bound to eat the most expensive items. The steaks are pretty good overall. When in coach it tends to be the burger option! I don't eat much meat at home, so don't claim to be an expert, but I would be astounded if a "shank" was in fact the item substituted.. It would not look anything like a steak.







Mind you, having seen that poor animal, I might go back to being vegetarian again..

Ed B)


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## Neil_M

caravanman said:


> Mind you, having seen that poor animal, I might go back to being vegetarian again..
> Ed B)


Hell no, that's not the answer. If we are not meant to eat cows then why are they made out of steak then?!


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## amtrakwolverine

yeah we eat meat deal with it. i would like to see BABY BACK RIBS if they ever bring back full dining service.


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## sunchaser

caravanman said:


> When in sleeper, I feel duty bound to eat the most expensive items. The steaks are pretty good overall. When in coach it tends to be the burger option! I don't eat much meat at home, so don't claim to be an expert, but I would be astounded if a "shank" was in fact the item substituted.. It would not look anything like a steak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mind you, having seen that poor animal, I might go back to being vegetarian again..
> 
> Ed B)


MMMM, rib steaks!!!!! Yum!


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## catblue

catblue said:


> I am very picky about my steak. I only like the very lean cuts of steak and I am a well done kind of person but I still expect it to be juicy and tender. I usually stick to Sirloin or New York Strip. So could you describe Flat Iron to me?


Since no one described the Flat Iron Steak I looked it up on the Internet and this is what it says:The Flat Iron Steak (also know as a Top Blade Steak), though a flavorful and relatively tender cut of meat, the top blade roast has a serious flaw in the middle of it; an impossibly tough piece of connective tissue running through the middle. Flat iron steaks usually have a significant amount of marbling. In the normal grades, marinade is required to achieve tenderness on par with more expensive cuts, such as ribeye or strip steak. It is best if it isn't cooked too well beyond medium. Like I said I only eat WELL done meat so rethinking my thought of ordering it on my train trip.


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## Upstate

catblue said:


> catblue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am very picky about my steak. I only like the very lean cuts of steak and I am a well done kind of person but I still expect it to be juicy and tender. I usually stick to Sirloin or New York Strip. So could you describe Flat Iron to me?
> 
> 
> 
> Since no one described the Flat Iron Steak I looked it up on the Internet and this is what it says:The Flat Iron Steak (also know as a Top Blade Steak), though a flavorful and relatively tender cut of meat, the top blade roast has a serious flaw in the middle of it; an impossibly tough piece of connective tissue running through the middle. Flat iron steaks usually have a significant amount of marbling. In the normal grades, marinade is required to achieve tenderness on par with more expensive cuts, such as ribeye or strip steak. It is best if it isn't cooked too well beyond medium. Like I said I only eat WELL done meat so rethinking my thought of ordering it on my train trip.
Click to expand...

You might as well just give up steak altogether if you only eat it well done.


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## catblue

I know many people think that but I happen to like it WELL done and am happy with what I get most of the time. To be perfectly honest if I am dining with someone who orders their steak anywhere beyond a little pink I can't even look at it. I have a week stomach I guess.


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## ALC Rail Writer

Having worked as a meat packer I will say this-- there is no way that they could make a shank look like a steak-- at least not to the trained eye. You cannot cut a shank into a steak, by definition any part of the shank cannot be made into a steak-- a steak is higher grade meat taken from the hind quarter, the shank is not.

If somebody grilled shank and put it in front of you, assuming they deboned it properly, it would look like some large hunks of meat loosely connected by fat-- not a single cut.

That being said, are you sure they didn't say _flank_? Flank steaks are tough, and really shouldn't be grilled-- they're more for braising like shank meat, but unlike shank meat it can be taken from the hind-quarter and cut into steaks.


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## catblue

If Amtrak is having a hard time getting enough Flat Iron Steaks or getting quality steaks why not just print on the menu that if they run out of Flat Iron Steaks they will be substituting a "?? steak", what ever that steak is. They should pick a steak that would be comparable and use it every time to substitute. Then the servers should tell you when you order which they are serving so you can pick something else if that is what you want to do. Seems so simple to me.


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## wayman

Sorry, folks--I might not try the steak this trip. The crab cakes are so good I'm tempted to order them again on the return!!! Dining staff and food are top class on 91 today. I'll post a trip soon... just had to rave about the crab cakes, and this great crew, now


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## sunchaser

Upstate said:


> catblue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catblue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am very picky about my steak. I only like the very lean cuts of steak and I am a well done kind of person but I still expect it to be juicy and tender. I usually stick to Sirloin or New York Strip. So could you describe Flat Iron to me?
> 
> 
> 
> Since no one described the Flat Iron Steak I looked it up on the Internet and this is what it says:The Flat Iron Steak (also know as a Top Blade Steak), though a flavorful and relatively tender cut of meat, the top blade roast has a serious flaw in the middle of it; an impossibly tough piece of connective tissue running through the middle. Flat iron steaks usually have a significant amount of marbling. In the normal grades, marinade is required to achieve tenderness on par with more expensive cuts, such as ribeye or strip steak. It is best if it isn't cooked too well beyond medium. Like I said I only eat WELL done meat so rethinking my thought of ordering it on my train trip.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You might as well just give up steak altogether if you only eat it well done.
Click to expand...

If you go here http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/menus/SampleMenu1_10-2-2008.pdf

and read the description, flat iron steak is described as being marinated. That should help with the tenderness issue.

Since this one is marinated, it may be ok ordered medium. You won't know unless you try it.

I like mine med rare, sometimes medium depending on the cut.


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## deimos

gswager said:


> I've ordered flat iron steak and it was wonderful!



I've had the Flat Iron Steak several times and all were pretty good! I am surprised by the substitutions. I would think they would simply indicate an item is not available when you order and give you the opportunity to make a second selection. This is what restaurants do.


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## TrackWalker

I had one this week on the CZ and it was good.

Ordered one on the Coast Starlight Tuesday night and 2 showed up on my plate. Who am I to complain?


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## amtrakwolverine

TrackWalker said:


> I had one this week on the CZ and it was good.
> Ordered one on the Coast Starlight Tuesday night and 2 showed up on my plate. Who am I to complain?


as long as they didn't charge you for the extra yeah 2 for 1. eat one and take the other to your seat or room for a snack later.


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## GoldenSpike

WhoozOn1st said:


> dart330 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never been victimized by the old switcheroo, but after 3 inedible flatirons on 3 different trains I'll never order an Amsteak again.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you order it cooked? I read a good review on a rare steak, but that was the only one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I always ask for medium, and the Amsteaks were all medium as requested. Bad meat was the problem. Poor quality. USDA Industrial or something.
> 
> Amshanks, on the other hand, have been pretty good on several occasions. They're braised. Braising is a low and slow form of cooking that works well for breaking down connective tissues even in tougher cuts, such as shank and brisket. I use liquid braising in the oven for corned beef, and it always comes out falling-apart tender.
> 
> I can certainly understand jim55's discomfiture, which would apply to any kinda surprise switch. Asterisk or no, he shoulda been notified as menus were distributed. In my experience the servers have never failed to inform when a dish was no longer available.
Click to expand...

Amshanks? Sounds like the title of a prison train movie: *The Amshank Redemption*


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## Guest

catblue said:


> Since no one described the Flat Iron Steak I looked it up on the Internet and this is what it says:The Flat Iron Steak (also know as a Top Blade Steak), though a flavorful and relatively tender cut of meat, the top blade roast has a serious flaw in the middle of it; an impossibly tough piece of connective tissue running through the middle. ...


Scroll back up a bit from your post, and check out post #27.


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## catblue

Guest said:


> catblue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since no one described the Flat Iron Steak I looked it up on the Internet and this is what it says:The Flat Iron Steak (also know as a Top Blade Steak), though a flavorful and relatively tender cut of meat, the top blade roast has a serious flaw in the middle of it; an impossibly tough piece of connective tissue running through the middle. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Scroll back up a bit from your post, and check out post #27.
Click to expand...

Yes I saw that post. Sorry I repeated the part about the tough tissue running through the middle.

What I was really wanting to know was what the steak was like cooked since I have never ordered it. Meaning was it a lean cut or a marbled cut, which means some traces of fat, which I do not like. I would never order a ribeye for instance because it has fat, also I don't eat ribs because they have fat, and so on. I am a VERY LEAN, NO FAT at all, WELL DONE person with all my meat choices. With the exception of a good lean chuck or sirloin burger. I am aware there are "rare steak" lovers. I am just not one of them. I'll go ahead and "jump in front of the train" so to speak and add I don't eat seafood either. So depending on what the Chiefs Choice is, the only other option seems to be chicken and I only eat the white meat of chicken. So yes I am a picky eater but I am sure I am not the only picky eater here.

Anyway I appreciate reading about what to be prepared for. There is a lot of good info on these forums.


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## nferr

catblue said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catblue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since no one described the Flat Iron Steak I looked it up on the Internet and this is what it says:The Flat Iron Steak (also know as a Top Blade Steak), though a flavorful and relatively tender cut of meat, the top blade roast has a serious flaw in the middle of it; an impossibly tough piece of connective tissue running through the middle. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Scroll back up a bit from your post, and check out post #27.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes I saw that post. Sorry I repeated the part about the tough tissue running through the middle.
> 
> What I was really wanting to know was what the steak was like cooked since I have never ordered it. Meaning was it a lean cut or a marbled cut, which means some traces of fat, which I do not like. I would never order a ribeye for instance because it has fat, also I don't eat ribs because they have fat, and so on. I am a VERY LEAN, NO FAT at all, WELL DONE person with all my meat choices. With the exception of a good lean chuck or sirloin burger. I am aware there are "rare steak" lovers. I am just not one of them. I'll go ahead and "jump in front of the train" so to speak and add I don't eat seafood either. So depending on what the Chiefs Choice is, the only other option seems to be chicken and I only eat the white meat of chicken. So yes I am a picky eater but I am sure I am not the only picky eater here.
> 
> Anyway I appreciate reading about what to be prepared for. There is a lot of good info on these forums.
Click to expand...

I love ribeye steak, there's a good reason why it's expensive. Ribeye and porterhouse are my favorites, NY Strip is good too. I find that steak cut with no fat is usually tough and has no flavor.


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## ALC Rail Writer

Okay, for those of you who don't know what I am talking about with USDA regulations.. see my earlier post...

I just checked with a butcher friend of the family. I'm the son of a meat packer, a former meat packer myself, and my grandfather was a locally famous meat cutter.

The USDA definition for "steak" is indeed a cut of meat prepared from the hindquarter... the shank is NOT part of the hind quarter. You can of course eat shank meat, but it would never be passible as steak because of look, texture, and flavor. It would also be against the law, and the USDA can impose fines on eateries that mislabel their products. The FDA can shut down eateries if they find the transgression serious enough.

Again, talking to out local butcher (who works for a family run farm) he suspects that _flank_ steak seems like a likely solution to this problem. When prepared, flank steak is flat and lean-- two qualities of flat irons. It can also be cut rectangular by slipping the knife across the tail and tking away that part of the cut. In addition the flank steak is not well grilled, it would be tough and tasteless-- much like the meat the OP describes having.

So if the OP is right about a shank substitution, Amtrak has some issues with the USDA and FDA. However, it may perhaps be safer to assume (since Aramark has been in the business of supplying steaks for years... and would know regulations about how to label "steak") that somebody along the line mistook "flank steak" for the incorrect "shank steak".


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## arubafanatic

Do you have to order your food in advance? How does that work exactly? Interested to know.


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## amtrakwolverine

arubafanatic said:


> Do you have to order your food in advance? How does that work exactly? Interested to know.


you talking about eating in the dining car. it works like a sit down restaurant. a person comes and ask you want you want then you get your food. if in sleeper food is free if in coach you have to pay and you get 2nd dibs after the sleeping car paxs get there reservations first.


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## arubafanatic

KISS_ALIVE said:


> you talking about eating in the dining car. it works like a sit down restaurant. a person comes and ask you want you want then you get your food. if in sleeper food is free if in coach you have to pay and you get 2nd dibs after the sleeping car paxs get there reservations first.


Yeah, I'm in the sleeper. I didn't know if was a sit down restaurant or what. Thanks for clearing that up. OK...I thought I read somewhere that you had to make reservations.


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## amtrakwolverine

arubafanatic said:


> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> 
> you talking about eating in the dining car. it works like a sit down restaurant. a person comes and ask you want you want then you get your food. if in sleeper food is free if in coach you have to pay and you get 2nd dibs after the sleeping car paxs get there reservations first.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm in the sleeper. I didn't know if was a sit down restaurant or what. Thanks for clearing that up. OK...I thought I read somewhere that you had to make reservations.
Click to expand...

someone from the dining car will go around and ask what time you want lunch or dinner. breakfast is first come first serve.


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## arubafanatic

Thanks for the quick response. Breakfast will be the tough one. I'll be in "vacation" mode and not wanting to move around too early, but my son will probably get up early. What time is breakfast? I'll try to remember to brigng some kind of travel alarm clock or set my cell phone alarm or something so that we get up on time to shower and eat. I plan on bringing a small cooler into the sleeper, and I don't want my son living on snack from the snack bar. I'm sure alot of others will have the same idea.


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## AlanB

Typically breakfast is from 6:30 AM to 10:00 AM, but the later you go the more likely that you might find the diner full and be placed on a waiting list.

As for the cooler, just be aware that unless you've booked a bedroom or are traveling in one of the single lever Viewliner sleepers, you'll probably be sleeping with the cooler. In a Superliner roomette, used on all trains west of the Mississipi and the Capitol Limited, once the beds are down you'll have enough floor space left to stand in. Nothing more than that. There will be no room for the cooler on the floor, unless you don't plan to stand up while changing.


----------



## Upstate

arubafanatic said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Breakfast will be the tough one. I'll be in "vacation" mode and not wanting to move around too early, but my son will probably get up early. What time is breakfast? I'll try to remember to brigng some kind of travel alarm clock or set my cell phone alarm or something so that we get up on time to shower and eat. I plan on bringing a small cooler into the sleeper, and I don't want my son living on snack from the snack bar. I'm sure alot of others will have the same idea.


Just have the sleeper car attendant give you a wake up knock and don't worry about the alarm.


----------



## VentureForth

OK - I'm a bit of a doubting Thomas, and I suppose I'll just have to see a menu with the asterisk to be sure. The sample menus online only asterisk the fact that the FDA says you'll die from food poisoning unless you order your [put name of meat here] isn't well done.

How on Earth could they foresee the need to have shanks onboard? If they need to have shanks onboard, then they oughtta put enough flat irons on. Never been to a Waffle House that ran out of T-Bones....

If, in fact, the problem is with the supplier, then FIND A NEW SUPPLIER!

I'd like to see some more evidence that this is actually happening, and I'd love to see some emails FLY to Amtrak!


----------



## ScottC4746

Neil_M said:


> Surely they should tell you exactly what it is you are being served? Granted, sometimes things run out and an alternative is offered, but if you are charging $21 for steak, then $21 for what normally becomes dog food is very underhand, and possibly illegal. In the UK the Trading Standards would be on their case.


I think the UK Trading Standards or anything in the US would turn the other cheek on this since as someone pointed out, it is marked on the menu that they have the right to substitute.


----------



## RRrich

I've been reading this thread and worrying - I've had the Flat iron Steak many times and throughly enjoyed it.

On May 18, train 30 I had a Flat Iron Steak that was just great - the next night I suggest it to someone else. HOWEVER on May 24, train 98 I had a Flat Iron Steak that tasted lousy - not bad but not the fine steaky taste I expected. It was tender but the texture was just wrong. I asked the LSA about it and she said that they had been getting the same meat for the last year and a half - but I have no reason to trust her. There was no asterisk on the menu relating to substitution of a different cut. The next morning, at breakfast I shared the table with a lady who asked me if I had had a steak for dinner - seems she was also disappointed with hers and she had been looking forward to ti as she was returning from a visit with her vegetarian daughter.

Chicken for dinner tonight!


----------



## AlanB

VentureForth said:


> How on Earth could they foresee the need to have shanks onboard? If they need to have shanks onboard, then they oughtta put enough flat irons on. Never been to a Waffle House that ran out of T-Bones....


They wouldn't have them onboard just in case.

If a dining car doesn't have the Flat Iron Steak on board, then it was the supplier who made the substitute.

Why the supplier didn't have the right thing is a whole other question. But Amtrak doesn't haul around substitues just in case.


----------



## Joel N. Weber II

arubafanatic said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Breakfast will be the tough one. I'll be in "vacation" mode and not wanting to move around too early, but my son will probably get up early. What time is breakfast? I'll try to remember to brigng some kind of travel alarm clock or set my cell phone alarm or something so that we get up on time to shower and eat.


You can ask the sleeping car attendant to wake you up as well, though having your own alarm clock as a backup is not a bad idea. If you are going to have the cell phone with you anyway, it's probably best to just use its alarm in order to minimize the amount of stuff you have to bring.



arubafanatic said:


> I plan on bringing a small cooler into the sleeper, and I don't want my son living on snack from the snack bar. I'm sure alot of others will have the same idea.


My experience has been that when I'm in a sleeping car, simply eating the food that's available in the dining car ``for free'' is plenty.


----------



## Shanghai

Some trains begin breakfast early. I was on the Capitol Limited one week ago from WAS to CHI. Breakfast was to have started at 6:30am. I walked to the diner at 6:25am to find it nearly full. I saw a man that I had eaten dinner with the previous evening and there was a free space at his table. He told me that the train was running early, so the diner opened at 6:00am. I was lucky because shortly after I arrived there was a line from both the sleepers and coach cars.

I'd suggest you tell the car attendant to wake you 30 minutes before breakfast begins.


----------



## guest 001

Joel N. Weber II said:


> arubafanatic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the quick response. Breakfast will be the tough one. I'll be in "vacation" mode and not wanting to move around too early, but my son will probably get up early. What time is breakfast? I'll try to remember to brigng some kind of travel alarm clock or set my cell phone alarm or something so that we get up on time to shower and eat.
> 
> 
> 
> You can ask the sleeping car attendant to wake you up as well, though having your own alarm clock as a backup is not a bad idea. If you are going to have the cell phone with you anyway, it's probably best to just use its alarm in order to minimize the amount of stuff you have to bring.
> 
> 
> 
> arubafanatic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I plan on bringing a small cooler into the sleeper, and I don't want my son living on snack from the snack bar. I'm sure alot of others will have the same idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My experience has been that when I'm in a sleeping car, simply eating the food that's available in the dining car ``for free'' is plenty.
Click to expand...

 Not quiet free considering the price of the sleeper or bedroom. Just might need to be a bit flexible and try to enjoy it. Your other choice is to go to the snack car and pay for something else.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

AlanB said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> How on Earth could they foresee the need to have shanks onboard? If they need to have shanks onboard, then they oughtta put enough flat irons on. Never been to a Waffle House that ran out of T-Bones....
> 
> 
> 
> They wouldn't have them onboard just in case.
> 
> If a dining car doesn't have the Flat Iron Steak on board, then it was the supplier who made the substitute.
> 
> Why the supplier didn't have the right thing is a whole other question. But Amtrak doesn't haul around substitues just in case.
Click to expand...

The problem is you can't substitute shank meat for steak and call it "steak" because it is against USDA and FDA regulations. See above posts from my experience in a packing house.


----------



## AlanB

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> How on Earth could they foresee the need to have shanks onboard? If they need to have shanks onboard, then they oughtta put enough flat irons on. Never been to a Waffle House that ran out of T-Bones....
> 
> 
> 
> They wouldn't have them onboard just in case.
> 
> If a dining car doesn't have the Flat Iron Steak on board, then it was the supplier who made the substitute.
> 
> Why the supplier didn't have the right thing is a whole other question. But Amtrak doesn't haul around substitues just in case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't substitute shank meat for steak and call it "steak" because it is against USDA and FDA regulations. See above posts from my experience in a packing house.
Click to expand...

And I wasn't arguing that. I honestly have no idea what can or can't be done. I just wanted to point out that it's the supplier that's making the substitution, not Amtrak.


----------



## Neil_M

ScottC4746 said:


> I think the UK Trading Standards or anything in the US would turn the other cheek on this since as someone pointed out, it is marked on the menu that they have the right to substitute.


Do they though? If they are offering X on the menu and they don't have X, then what they should do is tell the customer they don't have X but have Y instead. If Y is a much lessor quality than X then it certainly shouldn't be sold at the same price.


----------



## VentureForth

I'm still wondering about the validity of an asterisk. IF what seems to so far be an urban legend is true, then we agree that Amtrak's supplier relationship is questionable. Asterisk or not, I cannot believe that AMTRAK would substitute (because they weren't provided with enough real steak) shank AND CHARGE THE SAME PRICE.

If they want to run out of Flat Iron, fine. But offer the shank for 1/2 price or something. That is Amtrak's call, not any two-bit supplier's. Asterisks are not the caveat to allow anything. You cannot put an asterisk on something to say you're not liable and expect not to be held liable if it is your fault. They are a contingency at best and immoral marketing at worst. Who's to say that on any given day, there is NO flat iron steak delivered and therefore ALL steak served for three days is shank? You talk about cost cutting measures, there you go! Advertise Filet Mignon and then wrap a piece of bacon around a rib eye and say "Sorry, we're out. That'll be $34."

Again, I smell an urban legend at best and a Tony Soprano at worst...


----------



## AlanB

We don't know what price Amtrak charged.


----------



## stlouielady

VentureForth said:


> OK - I'm a bit of a doubting Thomas, and I suppose I'll just have to see a menu with the asterisk to be sure.


I was on the Eagle in March, and I snagged a menu. I just looked at it now, and here is what it says on the bottom on the entree page; not with an '*', but actually with a '+' mark next to it:

'In peak travel season, a braised beef entree may be substituted for flat iron steak'

There is NO mention anywhere of it being beef shanks, but, it doesn't specifically mention WHAT braised beef entree it is.....

If I did it right, here is a picture of the menu; sorry, you'll have to blow it up about 1000%; it is in the lower right hand corner.




[/url][/img]

If the picture doesn't work right, here's the link: Texas Eagle Menu. I have the other side of the menu posted there also, if anyone wants to see the entire thing.


----------



## VentureForth

AlanB said:


> We don't know what price Amtrak charged.


True. I'm under the assumption that the OP mentioned that the steak tasted different and the only the asterisk clued him into the switcharoo - not the bill (sleeper or not), nor the SA seemed to make any mention.


----------



## catblue

Someone mentioned lowering the price and do you really seeing them do that? Wouldn't that open them up to every one who paid for a sleeper and ordered the Flat Iron but was served possibly a Flank or Shank to request a refund of the difference since they assumed the cost of their ticket entitled them to a Flat Iron Steak? Can you even imagine the mess that would cause? Not going to happen!

How many times have you ordered a steak at the steak house restaurant of your choice that you had ordered many times before and this one time it was not as good as it usually is? Does that mean they were giving you a different cut of meat? Probably not.

They might have been served something else or might of been a bad Flat Iron. Do we know for sure?

It has been mentioned several times already the proper thing for the server to do is inform you when you order what they are serving if it is different than what is on the menu. Then if you choose the steak you at least would be getting what you ordered.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

stlouielady said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK - I'm a bit of a doubting Thomas, and I suppose I'll just have to see a menu with the asterisk to be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I was on the Eagle in March, and I snagged a menu. I just looked at it now, and here is what it says on the bottom on the entree page; not with an '*', but actually with a '+' mark next to it:
> 
> 'In peak travel season, a braised beef entree may be substituted for flat iron steak'
> 
> There is NO mention anywhere of it being beef shanks, but, it doesn't specifically mention WHAT braised beef entree it is.....
> 
> If I did it right, here is a picture of the menu; sorry, you'll have to blow it up about 1000%; it is in the lower right hand corner.
> 
> 
> 
> [/url][/img]
> 
> If the picture doesn't work right, here's the link: Texas Eagle Menu. I have the other side of the menu posted there also, if anyone wants to see the entire thing.
Click to expand...

There we go:

It reads that a "braised beef" dish may be substituted. Braising is usually the method of cooking shank meat and in the converse the most often braised beef portions are flank, brisket, and shank (the last of which is not a steak)--braising allows the fatty tissue to break down over time and, in truth, can be better after spending hours in warming trays than other dishes because it gives it more time to cook and break down. it does not claim to be a steak. Furthermore that is the same dish they offer on the diner-lites which have no grill to cook flat irons...

If you got braised beef on your plate, you would know. There is NO way to confuse a flat iron steak and braised beef shank... They don't look similar at all, they don't taste similar, and they are prepared totally differently.

People can stop saying that they got a substitution because they thought something was wrong when they bit into their steak... they just got a bad steak. Braised beef cannot be confused, it is just impossible.


----------



## wayman

Ok, here's some extremely current info, since I'm posting from the Silver Star in northern Florida, having just eaten the Flatiron Steak 

First, there's no asterisk, star, or footnote on the current menu about beef entrée substitutions. Single asterisk is about alcohol and appetizer not being included for sleeper class passengers. Double asterisk is the FDA warning about rare steak. I can't speak for menus before Friday, or in the near future, but right now there's no such note.

Second, my server (an excellent 20-year veteran adept at carefully serving coffee over some of CSX's worst track) said steaks would be changing in June. They'll still be Flatiron, same caterer, but Amtrak has requested that the caterer do some pre-cooking to the steaks. This is temporary, just for the summer. The reason is that most people order steaks medium to well, and cooking them all that way takes a lot of time; they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season. Steaks will still be "cooked to order" on board; but unfortunately, for lovers of rare steak, this means we may be out of luck for a few months. Nobody else should notice a difference. Again, this is a temporary measure for peak season, starting within the next month and probably lasting three or four months, according to my server.

Third, I had the steak tonight, prepared rare, and it was quite good. I think the other entrées are better nowadays, but I was very satisfied with my steak. It's no Peter Luger, Chicago Chop House, Amarillo Big Texan, etc, but that's fine by me--diner 8551 has better ambience, friendlier staff, and nicer scenery  The corn and pepper vegetable medley was what shocked me--I'm used to the vegetables being dreadful, and these were tasty. And the baked potato was fluffy. It's nice that they're putting some care into the entire meal now.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

wayman said:


> Ok, here's some extremely current info, since I'm posting from the Silver Star in northern Florida, having just eaten the Flatiron Steak
> First, there's no asterisk, star, or footnote on the current menu about beef entrée substitutions. Single asterisk is about alcohol and appetizer not being included for sleeper class passengers. Double asterisk is the FDA warning about rare steak. I can't speak for menus before Friday, or in the near future, but right now there's no such note.
> 
> Second, my server (an excellent 20-year veteran adept at carefully serving coffee over some of CSX's worst track) said steaks would be changing in June. They'll still be Flatiron, same caterer, but Amtrak has requested that the caterer do some pre-cooking to the steaks. This is temporary, just for the summer. The reason is that most people order steaks medium to well, and cooking them all that way takes a lot of time; they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season. Steaks will still be "cooked to order" on board; but unfortunately, for lovers of rare steak, this means we may be out of luck for a few months. Nobody else should notice a difference. Again, this is a temporary measure for peak season, starting within the next month and probably lasting three or four months, according to my server.


What bloody idiots. Anybody who orders a flat iron above medium is insane and doesn't know how to eat meat. Furthermore almost every cut of beef is best served medium rare. Flat irons are specifically best rare to medium rare because they are thin cuts that don't take a lot of time to cook in the first place!


----------



## Joel N. Weber II

wayman said:


> they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season.


So why not create another job?


----------



## catblue

Thanks Wayman. I had about talked myself out of ordering the Flat Iron Steak because I do order my steak well done. I will give it a try and yes ALC_Rail_Writer I will order it well done. After all isn't it a choice? Maybe not yours but still a choice I and some more might make. To each their own!


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Joel N. Weber II said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season.
> 
> 
> 
> So why not create another job?
Click to expand...

Or should we say, "re-create" it... Damn SDS, we're supposed to be creating jobs this would be a nice way to get a hundred more people employed.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

wayman said:


> ... They'll still be Flatiron, same caterer, but Amtrak has requested that the caterer do some pre-cooking to the steaks. This is temporary, just for the summer. The reason is that most people order steaks medium to well, and cooking them all that way takes a lot of time; they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season. Steaks will still be "cooked to order" on board; but unfortunately, for lovers of rare steak, this means we may be out of luck for a few months.


Really? Most of the people I hang with go from rare to medium rare. A well-doner is rare in my circles.

Doesn't sound "cooked to order" if they're medium to well done.


----------



## printman2000

stlouielady said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK - I'm a bit of a doubting Thomas, and I suppose I'll just have to see a menu with the asterisk to be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I was on the Eagle in March, and I snagged a menu. I just looked at it now, and here is what it says on the bottom on the entree page; not with an '*', but actually with a '+' mark next to it:
> 
> 'In peak travel season, a braised beef entree may be substituted for flat iron steak'
> 
> There is NO mention anywhere of it being beef shanks, but, it doesn't specifically mention WHAT braised beef entree it is.....
> 
> If I did it right, here is a picture of the menu; sorry, you'll have to blow it up about 1000%; it is in the lower right hand corner.
> 
> If the picture doesn't work right, here's the link: Texas Eagle Menu. I have the other side of the menu posted there also, if anyone wants to see the entire thing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that info.

If they were going to do this substitution, I cannot image them just doing it and not telling you.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

PetalumaLoco said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... They'll still be Flatiron, same caterer, but Amtrak has requested that the caterer do some pre-cooking to the steaks. This is temporary, just for the summer. The reason is that most people order steaks medium to well, and cooking them all that way takes a lot of time; they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season. Steaks will still be "cooked to order" on board; but unfortunately, for lovers of rare steak, this means we may be out of luck for a few months.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Most of the people I hang with go from rare to medium rare. A well-doner is rare in my circles.
> 
> Doesn't sound "cooked to order" if they're medium to well done.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be... they should consider taking on board raw steaks to make rare and medium-rare as well.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... They'll still be Flatiron, same caterer, but Amtrak has requested that the caterer do some pre-cooking to the steaks. This is temporary, just for the summer. The reason is that most people order steaks medium to well, and cooking them all that way takes a lot of time; they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season. Steaks will still be "cooked to order" on board; but unfortunately, for lovers of rare steak, this means we may be out of luck for a few months.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Most of the people I hang with go from rare to medium rare. A well-doner is rare in my circles.
> 
> Doesn't sound "cooked to order" if they're medium to well done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It wouldn't be... they should consider taking on board raw steaks to make rare and medium-rare as well.
Click to expand...

Agreed.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season.
> 
> 
> 
> So why not create another job?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or should we say, "re-create" it... Damn SDS, we're supposed to be creating jobs this would be a nice way to get a hundred more people employed.
Click to expand...

the problem is congress cut food costs so that meant 1 extra chief had to go. why can't the caterer supply there own chiefs for Amtrak that way Amtrak doesn't have to pay the chiefs the caterer does. money saved right there means better food.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

KISS_ALIVE said:


> the problem is congress cut food costs so that meant 1 extra chief had to go. why can't the caterer supply there own chiefs for Amtrak that way Amtrak doesn't have to pay the chiefs the caterer does. money saved right there means better food.


If you're talking about SDS then then you must also realize that the current Congress has a position towards job creation that opposes SDS-- that being, "we're giving money to people to create jobs."


----------



## RTOlson

I know many die-hard steak eaters would like at least a little pink to red in their meat, but the next time I order a flat-iron steak, I'm going to order it medium.

I had the steak on Zephyr last summer. I ordered medium rare, but what I got was more rare and very juicy. I think I would like my steak to be a little more done than that.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> 
> the problem is congress cut food costs so that meant 1 extra chief had to go. why can't the caterer supply there own chiefs for Amtrak that way Amtrak doesn't have to pay the chiefs the caterer does. money saved right there means better food.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're talking about SDS then then you must also realize that the current Congress has a position towards job creation that opposes SDS-- that being, "we're giving money to people to create jobs."
Click to expand...

but i don't see full dining service returning to amtrak so what jobs are they making uh none. i don't hear of amtrak hiring extra cooks for all long distance trains etc.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

KISS_ALIVE said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> 
> the problem is congress cut food costs so that meant 1 extra chief had to go. why can't the caterer supply there own chiefs for Amtrak that way Amtrak doesn't have to pay the chiefs the caterer does. money saved right there means better food.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're talking about SDS then then you must also realize that the current Congress has a position towards job creation that opposes SDS-- that being, "we're giving money to people to create jobs."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> but i don't see full dining service returning to amtrak so what jobs are they making uh none. i don't hear of amtrak hiring extra cooks for all long distance trains etc.
Click to expand...

I talked to Lou yesterday about his impression of Boardman. FYI: Lou was on Beech Grove all these last few weeks while Boardman was abroad and he told me "Boardman is a good man, he's going to bring back everything that they've been taking away from us. He said 'When I was in charge of the FRA I just made the rules, my opinion didn't matter... now I am in a place where my opinion matters,' he's a very good guy."

I trust Lou.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

KISS_ALIVE said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> 
> the problem is congress cut food costs so that meant 1 extra chief had to go. why can't the caterer supply there own chiefs for Amtrak that way Amtrak doesn't have to pay the chiefs the caterer does. money saved right there means better food.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're talking about SDS then then you must also realize that the current Congress has a position towards job creation that opposes SDS-- that being, "we're giving money to people to create jobs."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> but i don't see full dining service returning to amtrak so what jobs are they making uh none. i don't hear of amtrak hiring extra cooks for all long distance trains etc.
Click to expand...

These things take time, KissAlive. Stop being so... American. Rome wasn't built in a day. It took the Clinton and Bush administration and a crooked politician named Warrington 8 years to bring Amtrak to this level of disgrace. Its going to take more than a wave of Joe Boardman's wand to bring it all back. I believe Joe wants to and will do his damnedest to do this.

You can't expect General Motors to suddenly start churning out the products everyone wants and instantly convince people they build them right. You can't expect Amtrak to remedy 38 years of chronic underfunding and downright abuse in the 4 months Boardman and Obama/Biden have been running the place.

Give it time, KA. We've been seeing incredible leaps and bounds in the past 4 months. But what's more, we have hope that Amtrak is going to be around in 10 years. Last year at this time, none of us were sure. We believe Sightseers will exist on every overnight Superliner train save the City of New Orleans. We didn't believe that a year ago. We were afraid they were going to be converted into coaches and "Lounge-Diners".

We thought SDS, in all of its no-fresh-cooking glory was here to stay, and the Diner-Lite/CCC implantation was practically a done deal. The CCC program is SCRAPPED, the lounge-diner prototype is cancelled, and we are, for the first time, preparing to order single level diners.

We were worried McCain would get in- he's a damned good American and it took a man as good as Obama to beat him, I don't think Clinton could have- and that Amtrak's death would be a certainty. Another 8 years of this underfunding and it would be gone. But he wasn't- instead we got the relatively pro-rail Obama in office, underpinned by Amtrak's greatest congressional supporter- Joe Biden.

Now, I'm a born cynic. I don't deny it. But hell guys, listen up! Boardman tells his employees that they need to stop thinking on a survival mentality. Well, I'm telling you we need to stop feeling like we're defending Amtrak and the hoards are at the door!

THE NEW AMTRAK REAUTHORIZATION NO LONGER REQUIRES THEM TO MAKE A PROFIT!

For as long as the current administration is respected, Amtrak has a good future. Lets top secretly suspecting that everyone and their brother, including Amtrak management, is out to kill the company!


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Agreed GML. This won't come overnight but it may come in a few years. In the words of Lou:

"I hope he [boardman] sticks around for awhile."


----------



## AlanB

KISS_ALIVE said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> 
> the problem is congress cut food costs so that meant 1 extra chief had to go. why can't the caterer supply there own chiefs for Amtrak that way Amtrak doesn't have to pay the chiefs the caterer does. money saved right there means better food.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're talking about SDS then then you must also realize that the current Congress has a position towards job creation that opposes SDS-- that being, "we're giving money to people to create jobs."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> but i don't see full dining service returning to amtrak so what jobs are they making uh none. i don't hear of amtrak hiring extra cooks for all long distance trains etc.
Click to expand...

Only Stimulus money is supposed to be used to create new jobs and Amtrak wasn't given any stimulus money to improve food service. They were given stimulus money to fix cars and stations.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

AlanB said:


> Only Stimulus money is supposed to be used to create new jobs and Amtrak wasn't given any stimulus money to improve food service. They were given stimulus money to fix cars and stations.


Agreed, however, it would seem that SDS has created a situation where jobs are eliminated and the current Congress is all about creating new jobs. And with Boardman, I think Congress will win something over. As GML said, it wasn't built in a day-- but I see hope for the future, at least the near future. We'll have some great years, then some where they wain, and some where they wax... we're in a waxing period and I am satisfied.


----------



## AlanB

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> we're in a waxing period and I am satisfied.


I don't think that I've ever seen an Amtrak employee waxing a train. :lol:

And I certainly wouldn't want them waxing my steak. 

On the other hand, it's ok with wax beans. :lol:

But seriously, Amtrak has already been rolling back to some extent the original SDS cuts. The food itself has taken a major step forward and to my knowledge the load factor formulas that determine when extra employees are added to the dining cars are added have been improved for the better. And of course we've already heard that Mr. Boardman wants the CCC gone from the Capitol and the Diner-Lite car downgraded to cafe car status for the ALB-CHI section of the LSL and promoted to it's dual role of cafe/dinner for the BOS-ALB section, which of course means the return of a dining car to the NY section and for the rest of the run to Chicago. And there are rumors that some of the other cuts to dining cars may also be gradually undone.

So hopefully things will indeed continue to improve and get better.


----------



## volkris

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Agreed, however, it would seem that SDS has created a situation where jobs are eliminated and the current Congress is all about creating new jobs.


However, things are starting to change again. The powers in DC are beginning to realize that they can only spend so much money they don't have before even supporters of that policy begin to flinch.

Plus, it's not like you can just "build" a job and walk away. What happens when the stimulus bucks are used up? The employee's still looking to be paid.


----------



## Longford

Flat Iron Steak on the Empire Builder, Saturday, May 23rd. There was no mention on the Menu of the posibility of a change in the cut of meat.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

volkris said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, however, it would seem that SDS has created a situation where jobs are eliminated and the current Congress is all about creating new jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> However, things are starting to change again. The powers in DC are beginning to realize that they can only spend so much money they don't have before even supporters of that policy begin to flinch.
> 
> Plus, it's not like you can just "build" a job and walk away. What happens when the stimulus bucks are used up? The employee's still looking to be paid.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, spending money they don't have is the only choice they do have. I am watching with horrified fascination the slow motion train wreck that is their handling of Detroit. Watch this. GM is going to be forced into bankruptcy. Within days, the lack of orders from GM from parts suppliers is going to force THEM into bankruptcy. When they stop operating, Ford's supply chain will be disrupted and Ford will have to give up their brave stance. And over the course of the next month, the million or so jobs directly dependent on the big three, as well as another million or so in surrounding towns will close their doors as factories close.

The bankruptcy of Chrysler, the weaker and more pathetic company will end with FIAT. GM and Ford will go into liquidation. You think the October crash was bad? Boy, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

This isn't ideology speaking. I'm no lover of car companies or cars. This is economic sense. Even the morons running Britain weren't stupid enough to let the entire British car industry go bankrupt and shut down overnight. Yes, it cost a fortune, and yes it took 30 years before the last vestige of British Leyland, MG Rover, closed its doors. But atleast Britain didn't face the kind of economic meltdown this is going to cause us. Mark my words, Volkris, the worst is yet to come.


----------



## Tony

Forget about the steak, is that a real china plate I see? 



Longford said:


>


----------



## yarrow

Tony said:


> Forget about the steak, is that a real china plate I see?


the eb has never gone away from real plates and silverware.


----------



## Longford

yarrow said:


> Tony said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forget about the steak, is that a real china plate I see?
> 
> 
> 
> the eb has never gone away from real plates and silverware.
Click to expand...

I don't think that plate was "China," but, rather, a look-like made of a plastic product. It wasn't disposable, or paper, but not China to the best of my knowledge.


----------



## sky12065

Longford said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tony said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forget about the steak, is that a real china plate I see?
> 
> 
> 
> the eb has never gone away from real plates and silverware.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think that plate was "China," but, rather, a look-like made of a plastic product. It wasn't disposable, or paper, but not China to the best of my knowledge.
Click to expand...

Maybe it was Ammac! That would be *Melmac* specfically made for Amtrak and given the moniker Ammac. Anyway, who cares so long as the Amgrub is Amgoooood!


----------



## jim55

Longford said:


> Flat Iron Steak on the Empire Builder, Saturday, May 23rd. There was no mention on the Menu of the posibility of a change in the cut of meat.


The FI steak I had the first night was about half that size but it was the real thing. That plate looks like the disposable Plastic plate but with real silverware wraped in a blue cloth napkin that was there when seated. The Fla post pretty much proves that all menus are not the same. The TE had a "Cross Country Cafe" with the three panel menu that had Breakfast on the left panel , diner on the right panel and "All Day Long" in the middle. I don't understand the "all day thing" as they ran specific dinning hours. They seated at both ends of the CCC and seemed to have an ample staff. For the most part, food was good and service very good. The Substitute "whatever" looked like yours but with more rounded edges, not as square as yours. Like I said, it was a very good trip less that substitute. Maybe we are beating a "dead horse" here...Wait a minute.. that taste is familiar! Jim


----------



## AlanB

Yarrow is correct, both the EB and the Auto Train never gave up real glassware. So all plates, glasses, and mugs are still glass on those two trains.


----------



## wayman

AlanB said:


> Yarrow is correct, both the EB and the Auto Train never gave up real glassware. So all plates, glasses, and mugs are still glass on those two trains.


I think you mean that the EB and AT plates and mugs are ceramic (not glass), but yes  (The wine stemware and regular juice/soda/water glasses are glass, of course.) As for people looking at the above photo and saying "that looks just like my plastic plate" (on another train like the Capitol or Silvers, etc), yes, the pattern is exactly the same, the white plate with blue ring and Amtrak logo. So it's hard to tell in that photo that the plate is actually ceramic, but in this case it is.

I was surprised this week on the Silver Star to have real glass stemware for the wine. Maybe those have always been there and I just don't always order the wine or pay attention? But I thought for a while there was "plastic stemware" for wine. There are still plastic glasses for juice and water and plastic coffee cups, of course.

So, on LD trains that are not the EB or AT, do they carry enough silverware and wine glasses that they don't need to run the dishwasher, or do they do one overnight load of just those items?


----------



## catblue

What ever the steak in the picture is it looks good. I don't even see any blood running out on the plate.  Which probably means it is not rare.  Which is a "good thing" as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Neil_M

catblue said:


> What ever the steak in the picture is it looks good. I don't even see any blood running out on the plate.  Which probably means it is not rare.  Which is a "good thing" as far as I am concerned.


Might look good, but I bet it don't taste of anything apart from overcooked!


----------



## Ispolkom

wayman said:


> So, on LD trains that are not the EB or AT, do they carry enough silverware and wine glasses that they don't need to run the dishwasher, or do they do one overnight load of just those items?


On the Capitol Limited this weekend plates, glasses, coffee cups, and wine glasses were all plastic, but the flatware was metal. On the Empire Builder, everything was washable, and I noticed the dishwashing station visible through the door when I walked by the diner at MSP.

We were very happy with the quality of the food, with standouts being the pork verde for lunch on #30, and the braised lamb shank for dinner on #7. I was also surprised this morning to see that the "breakfast sandwich" special on #7 was an actual sandwich, made with slices of bread, which looked made to order. I had assumed that it would be something frozen and reheated on an English muffin.

Longford, did you win the bottle of Columbia Crest at the wine tasting?


----------



## Longford

No, I didn't _win_ the bottle - I purchased it after the tasting. The smaller bottles of wine offered for sale on the train (which would fill two glasses of wine) were priced at $13 and the full-sized bottle of this better wine was sold - as a promotion - for $14. I brought the bottle to dinner and shared its contents with the three other people at my table. The bottles handed out as prizes during the wine/cheese event were, for the most part, 1/4 full because their contents had been sampled by the guests.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

They've been slowly rolling back the SDS stuff. I noticed they've gone back to cloth napkins, as well.


----------



## wayman

Longford said:


> Flat Iron Steak on the Empire Builder, Saturday, May 23rd. There was no mention on the Menu of the posibility of a change in the cut of meat.


Here's my steak from the Silver Star, Monday 25 May. I like my steak rare, and got exactly what I wanted:





As you can see, the ceramic plate (in Longford's photo from the Empire Builder) and plastic plate (in my photo from the Silver Star) look very similar!

I've just uploaded lots of photos from Amtrak's current menu to my Amtrak diners set on Flickr. The flatiron steak, crab cakes, Thai curry chicken, pulled pork stew, railroad French toast, key lime pie, and berry lemon tart are all there to whet your appetite  When you follow that link to the photo set, the photos from this weekend start with "Thai curry chicken", the first photo in the third row. You can also compare this flatiron steak to one I ate in January 2008, and compare the current key lime pie to the one provided by the previous caterer.


----------



## sunchaser

wayman said:


> Longford said:
> 
> 
> 
> Flat Iron Steak on the Empire Builder, Saturday, May 23rd. There was no mention on the Menu of the posibility of a change in the cut of meat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my steak from the Silver Star, Monday 25 May. I like my steak rare, and got exactly what I wanted:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the ceramic plate (in Longford's photo from the Empire Builder) and plastic plate (in my photo from the Silver Star) look very similar!
> 
> I've just uploaded lots of photos from Amtrak's current menu to my Amtrak diners set on Flickr. The flatiron steak, crab cakes, Thai curry chicken, pulled pork stew, railroad French toast, key lime pie, and berry lemon tart are all there to whet your appetite  When you follow that link to the photo set, the photos from this weekend start with "Thai curry chicken", the first photo in the third row. You can also compare this flatiron steak to one I ate in January 2008.
Click to expand...

The plates do look very close to each other! Your steak is a little too rare for my taste, though. Thanks for the pics.


----------



## wayman

sunchaser said:


> The plates do look very close to each other! Your steak is a little too rare for my taste, though. Thanks for the pics.


Fortunately, with the steaks cooked-to-order by the chef, we can all get our steaks just as we like them 

(Well, except for possibly not being able to get them this rare during the summer months. We'll have to wait and see how that works. I might have to travel somewhere just to try the food again in a few months!  )


----------



## amtrakwolverine

wayman said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plates do look very close to each other! Your steak is a little too rare for my taste, though. Thanks for the pics.
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately, with the steaks cooked-to-order by the chef, we can all get our steaks just as we like them
> 
> (Well, except for possibly not being able to get them this rare during the summer months. We'll have to wait and see how that works. I might have to travel somewhere just to try the food again in a few months!  )
Click to expand...

the only train that has a chief is the autotrain and EB. how can they been cooked to order when there just tossed in a microwave.


----------



## wayman

KISS_ALIVE said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plates do look very close to each other! Your steak is a little too rare for my taste, though. Thanks for the pics.
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately, with the steaks cooked-to-order by the chef, we can all get our steaks just as we like them
> 
> (Well, except for possibly not being able to get them this rare during the summer months. We'll have to wait and see how that works. I might have to travel somewhere just to try the food again in a few months!  )
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the only train that has a chief is the autotrain and EB. how can they been cooked to order when there just tossed in a microwave.
Click to expand...

Every diner on a long-distance train has a chef, who uses an oven and grill to prepare your food. Some meals, such as the steaks and omelets, are cooked on the grill when you order them; others have been mostly prepared ahead-of-time and are warmed in the oven. The chef isn't tossing anything in a microwave.

The EB and Auto Train are the only trains which have an assistant chef in addition to the chef. The assistant chef is able to do additional cooking preparation in the kitchen as well as wash dishes, which is why those two trains are still able to serve meals on ceramic china instead of plastic china.


----------



## AlanB

KISS_ALIVE said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plates do look very close to each other! Your steak is a little too rare for my taste, though. Thanks for the pics.
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately, with the steaks cooked-to-order by the chef, we can all get our steaks just as we like them
> 
> (Well, except for possibly not being able to get them this rare during the summer months. We'll have to wait and see how that works. I might have to travel somewhere just to try the food again in a few months!  )
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the only train that has a chief is the autotrain and EB. how can they been cooked to order when there just tossed in a microwave.
Click to expand...

Every LD train, except for the Cardinal, still has a chef. Even the Lake Shore still runs with a chef, even though he has no oven or grill to cook on.

And except for the LSL and the Cardinal, steaks are indeed cooked to order on the grill by a chef.


----------



## AlanB

wayman said:


> The EB and Auto Train are the only trains which have an assistant chef in addition to the chef. The assistant chef is able to do additional cooking preparation in the kitchen as well as wash dishes, which is why those two trains are still able to serve meals on ceramic china instead of plastic china.


That's not exactly true, Will. The EB and the Auto Train are the only two trains that are guaranteed to always have an assistant chef in the kitchen. The other LD's, except for the LSL and the Cardinal, may or may not have an assistant chef depending on the passenger load for that train.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

wayman said:


> As you can see, the ceramic plate (in Longford's photo from the Empire Builder) and plastic plate (in my photo from the Silver Star) look very similar!


They do look similar, but I can definitely see the difference between ceramic and plastic just by noting the thickness at the edge of the plates.

BTW, I would have sent the steak back to be cooked a bit longer. It is easy to cook a rare steak a bit more, but difficult to uncook an overcooked steak.


----------



## AlanB

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> BTW, I would have sent the steak back to be cooked a bit longer. It is easy to cook a rare steak a bit more, but difficult to uncook an overcooked steak.


It's easy to do, but against health regulations. They have to cook you a new steak, they can't put that one back on the grill. I'm not sure if they can put it into the convection oven for a few minutes or not.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

AlanB said:


> Every LD train, except for the Cardinal, still has a chef. Even the Lake Shore still runs with a chef, even though he has no oven or grill to cook on.
> And except for the LSL and the Cardinal, steaks are indeed cooked to order on the grill by a chef.


He or she... The one chef on the LSL is indeed female. She handled the "kitchen" very well on Thursday.


----------



## wayman

AlanB said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The EB and Auto Train are the only trains which have an assistant chef in addition to the chef. The assistant chef is able to do additional cooking preparation in the kitchen as well as wash dishes, which is why those two trains are still able to serve meals on ceramic china instead of plastic china.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not exactly true, Will. The EB and the Auto Train are the only two trains that are guaranteed to always have an assistant chef in the kitchen. The other LD's, except for the LSL and the Cardinal, may or may not have an assistant chef depending on the passenger load for that train.
Click to expand...

Wow, I didn't know that Alan. Thanks for the clarification, and I'm glad to know there's some flexibility in the system to allow for assistant chefs occasionally. But I wonder how often they actually add one...

Based on passenger load, they certainly could have used an assistant chef on Train 91 on Saturday--the train was sold out and the diner was packed for all meals--but the staff was just a chef, LSA, and two SAs (unless the assistant chef was hiding in the dishwasher when I peeked into the kitchen!). Then again, the service on 91 was prompt and efficient, and food arrived very promptly from the kitchen, even without an assistant.

Train 92 on Monday had a lighter passenger load, with the diner maybe 2/3 full for each meal, and it had only a chef, LSA, and one SA, and service was a little slower as a result. The difference that second SA can make is huge. I can only imagine how much improved things can be with an assistant chef too! (Well, actually I do know--I've eaten on the EB. And it was definitely a cut above even the very best dining car crews on other trains. I can only imagine how much better the food on the Crescent, Silvers, etc, will get when they also get a second chef on every train!)


----------



## Tony

AlanB said:


> It's easy to do, but against health regulations. They have to cook you a new steak, they can't put that one back on the grill. I'm not sure if they can put it into the convection oven for a few minutes or not.


I was never aware of that. Though I have never personally had to do it at any restaurant, I always thought that one could send an under-cooked meal back to the kitchen for a bit more heating.

Also, let me add, I thought serving raw meat (and poultry) was a health violation too. :unsure:


----------



## Tony

wayman said:


> ...Based on passenger load, they certainly could have used an assistant chef on Train 91 on Saturday--the train was sold out and the diner was packed for all meals--but the staff was just a chef, LSA, and two SAs (unless the assistant chef was hiding in the dishwasher when I peeked into the kitchen!). Then again, the service on 91 was prompt and efficient, and food arrived very promptly from the kitchen, even without an assistant.
> 
> Train 92 on Monday had a lighter passenger load, with the diner maybe 2/3 full for each meal, and it had only a chef, LSA, and one SA, and service was a little slower as a result. The difference that second SA can make is huge. I can only imagine how much improved things can be with an assistant chef too! (Well, actually I do know--I've eaten on the EB. And it was definitely a cut above even the very best dining car crews on other trains. I can only imagine how much better the food on the Crescent, Silvers, etc, will get when they also get a second chef on every train!)


I have been traveling on the Silvers for years (91,97,98), and experienced all the combinations of crew members in the dining car.

From my observations, prompt and efficient service vs. slow service, seems to be more of function of the individuals themselves, rather than the customer load and a second SA. Some groups of individuals working in the dining car just happen to make more of an well organized "team" than others, and with that, seem to be so much more efficient in their overall jobs. They seem to put together a better "system", better choreography, in serving their passengers.

The one LSA named Michelle, was one that was really great. No matter how crowed the dining car was, tables got cleared fast, waiting people got seated quickly, drink orders were taken and filled within minutes, salads and bread appeared on your table with little wait, etc.


----------



## Longford

AlanB said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I would have sent the steak back to be cooked a bit longer. It is easy to cook a rare steak a bit more, but difficult to uncook an overcooked steak.
> 
> 
> 
> It's easy to do, but against health regulations. They have to cook you a new steak, they can't put that one back on the grill. I'm not sure if they can put it into the convection oven for a few minutes or not.
Click to expand...

Is there a set of federal regulations governing food preparation on all trains? If so, where are such regulations published? If there are no such federal regulations, local and/or state regulations would apply and in that case I don't think there are uniform regulations covering the matter (most probably state regulations, because trains move through so many different communities so quickly).

I live in Chicago and it's commonplace and, from what I understand, perfectly legal for a restaurant to adjust the cooking time of a steak if a diner sends it back because it's not done to the point it's been ordered. I've never heard (until now) of the (or a) regulation mandating the throw-out of a steak and the cooking of a new one if a customer sends an undercooked one back to the kitchen for adjustment.


----------



## wayman

Tony said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's easy to do, but against health regulations. They have to cook you a new steak, they can't put that one back on the grill. I'm not sure if they can put it into the convection oven for a few minutes or not.
> 
> 
> 
> I was never aware of that. Though I have never personally had to do it at any restaurant, I always thought that one could send an under-cooked meal back to the kitchen for a bit more heating.
> 
> Also, let me add, I thought serving raw meat (and poultry) was a health violation too. :unsure:
Click to expand...

Actually, serving beef _far_ more raw than this is common in some cultures. Steak tartare (all around Western Europe) is raw beef, marinated and chilled. Kefto (Ethiopian/Eritrean) is totally raw minced beef, never cooked. Shabu shabu (Japanese) is beef served raw, with a pot of warm stew broth for cooking it yourself on the table. Fondue (Swiss) is the same idea with a pot of hot cooking oil on the table. You get to cook the shabu shabu or fondue meat exactly how you want it, or even eat it raw if you like. And the kefto and steak tartare are simply is eaten exactly as served. And all of these are widely available in American restaurants. Compared to these, the rarest flatiron steak is quite cooked--the outside is completely seared, after a few minutes on the grill on each side, and the inside is slightly (very slightly) cooked as well. The FDA requires a footnote saying uncooked meat is risky, but it's not a violation of any rules.


----------



## Tony

wayman said:


> The FDA requires a footnote saying uncooked meat is risky, but it's not a violation of any rules.


Possibly it is a local heath bureau thing.... most of the restaurants around here have that footnote, but then add to it, a notice that they will not serve any meat cooked less than medium.

One of the reasons, I think (just a guess) is that unlike grocery stores, I know that restaurants are legally sold known contaminated meat. Or least they could be. Because of that, they have to ensure it is cooked well enough (which is medium) to kill any of the nasty stuff (germs, etc).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Tony said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FDA requires a footnote saying uncooked meat is risky, but it's not a violation of any rules.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly it is a local heath bureau thing.... most of the restaurants around here have that footnote, but then add to it, a notice that they will not serve any meat cooked less than medium.
> 
> One of the reasons, I think (just a guess) is that unlike grocery stores, I know that restaurants are legally sold known contaminated meat. Or least they could be. Because of that, they have to ensure it is cooked well enough (which is medium) to kill any of the nasty stuff (germs, etc).
Click to expand...

Actually, your key word here is "most". Most cheap/bad restaurants don't trust the quality of the meat they sell, do not wish to get sued, and therefore do not offer rare meat. Offering rare as an option on a hamburger is one pre-order indicator of whether a place knows or doesn't know how to properly cook one.

Truth be told, if the restaurant does not offer rare as an option on cooked to order food, I'd say don't dine there. Doesn't matter if you like your food rare or not. It really is indicative of a lack of confidence in their ability to provide quality, safe food. I, for one, do not wish to eat in a restaurant that is not comfortable with providing a cooked but rare burger.

Moreover, and I knock wood saying this, I prefer my burgers like my steaks- rare as all get out. When I make them at home I use various different kinds of meat- kobe beef, buffalo, lamb, veal, venison, duck- usually in combination. I always cook it rare to medium rare, and both at restaurants and in my own home, I have yet to get sick from eating it.

By the way, I, for reasons that elude my logical brain, like choke-and-pukes (AKA greasy spoons, grease pits, truck stops, et al), I usually order my burgers rare there, if they offer cooked to order burgers, and I still haven't gotten sick. I don't even know what the big brouhaha is about.


----------



## Longford

Tony said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FDA requires a footnote saying uncooked meat is risky, but it's not a violation of any rules.
> 
> 
> 
> ......... I know that restaurants are legally sold known contaminated meat. Or least they could be.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I find it difficult to accept such a statement . . . that the law/regulations anywhere in the USA permit a supplier to sell contaminated meat. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - because we know it has - but I doubt any government regulations permit it. Then again, how one defines "contaminated" could change the discussion.


----------



## AAARGH!

Green Maned Lion said:


> Actually, your key word here is "most". Most cheap/bad restaurants don't trust the quality of the meat they sell, do not wish to get sued, and therefore do not offer rare meat. Offering rare as an option on a hamburger is one pre-order indicator of whether a place knows or doesn't know how to properly cook one.
> Truth be told, if the restaurant does not offer rare as an option on cooked to order food, I'd say don't dine there. Doesn't matter if you like your food rare or not. It really is indicative of a lack of confidence in their ability to provide quality, safe food. I, for one, do not wish to eat in a restaurant that is not comfortable with providing a cooked but rare burger.
> 
> Moreover, and I knock wood saying this, I prefer my burgers like my steaks- rare as all get out. When I make them at home I use various different kinds of meat- kobe beef, buffalo, lamb, veal, venison, duck- usually in combination. I always cook it rare to medium rare, and both at restaurants and in my own home, I have yet to get sick from eating it.
> 
> By the way, I, for reasons that elude my logical brain, like choke-and-pukes (AKA greasy spoons, grease pits, truck stops, et al), I usually order my burgers rare there, if they offer cooked to order burgers, and I still haven't gotten sick. I don't even know what the big brouhaha is about.


You may have well built up a tolerance over time for (slightly) contaminated meat sold at less-than-fancy places. It's the kids who played in the mud who built up the most immunity and thus are the healthiest.


----------



## sunchaser

AAARGH said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, your key word here is "most". Most cheap/bad restaurants don't trust the quality of the meat they sell, do not wish to get sued, and therefore do not offer rare meat. Offering rare as an option on a hamburger is one pre-order indicator of whether a place knows or doesn't know how to properly cook one.
> Truth be told, if the restaurant does not offer rare as an option on cooked to order food, I'd say don't dine there. Doesn't matter if you like your food rare or not. It really is indicative of a lack of confidence in their ability to provide quality, safe food. I, for one, do not wish to eat in a restaurant that is not comfortable with providing a cooked but rare burger.
> 
> Moreover, and I knock wood saying this, I prefer my burgers like my steaks- rare as all get out. When I make them at home I use various different kinds of meat- kobe beef, buffalo, lamb, veal, venison, duck- usually in combination. I always cook it rare to medium rare, and both at restaurants and in my own home, I have yet to get sick from eating it.
> 
> By the way, I, for reasons that elude my logical brain, like choke-and-pukes (AKA greasy spoons, grease pits, truck stops, et al), I usually order my burgers rare there, if they offer cooked to order burgers, and I still haven't gotten sick. I don't even know what the big brouhaha is about.
> 
> 
> 
> You may have well built up a tolerance over time for (slightly) contaminated meat sold at less-than-fancy places. It's the kids who played in the mud who built up the most immunity and thus are the healthiest.
Click to expand...

Exactly what do you consider 'slightly contaminated'? If you are referring to e-coli, salmonella, botulism, etc., as contaminates, there is really no such thing as 'slightly contaminated'. All of these will at the very least would make you quite ill, if not kill you. Once in the human system, they multiply rapidly and make you ill quite quickly, within hours.

The reason for the undercooked meat warning is that there is a risk that IF the meat does have these bacteria in it, you could get sick if it is undercooked.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Green Maned Lion said:


> Truth be told, if the restaurant does not offer rare as an option on cooked to order food, I'd say don't dine there. Doesn't matter if you like your food rare or not. It really is indicative of a lack of confidence in their ability to provide quality, safe food. I, for one, do not wish to eat in a restaurant that is not comfortable with providing a cooked but rare burger.


I agree with you, 100%.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Longford said:


> Sorry, but I find it difficult to accept such a statement . . . that the law/regulations anywhere in the USA permit a supplier to sell contaminated meat. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - because we know it has - but I doubt any government regulations permit it. Then again, how one defines "contaminated" could change the discussion.


I think it is, unfortunately, true.

If I remember, it has to do with USDA's jurisdiction, and the difference between retail sales (grocery stores) and wholesale (to restaurants).

Plus little things like section 623, "_Exemptions from inspection requirements... Pizzas containing meat food products._ " How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?


----------



## Neil_M

sunchaser said:


> Exactly what do you consider 'slightly contaminated'? If you are referring to e-coli, salmonella, botulism, etc., as contaminates, there is really no such thing as 'slightly contaminated'. All of these will at the very least would make you quite ill, if not kill you. Once in the human system, they multiply rapidly and make you ill quite quickly, within hours.The reason for the undercooked meat warning is that there is a risk that IF the meat does have these bacteria in it, you could get sick if it is undercooked.


Exactly. Eating raw or rare meat won't kill you, but eating meat not cooked long enough to kill any nasties like e-coli etc might.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Plus little things like section 623, "_Exemptions from inspection requirements... Pizzas containing meat food products._ " How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?


If you think that's silly, USDA changes Swiss cheese hole diameter regulation.


----------



## AlanB

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?


They were probably just going round and round on that one. :lol: :lol:


----------



## AlanB

PetalumaLoco said:


> If you think that's silly, USDA changes Swiss cheese hole diameter regulation.


Well some of those inspectors do have a wholier than thou attitude. :lol: :lol:


----------



## sunchaser

PetalumaLoco said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus little things like section 623, "_Exemptions from inspection requirements... Pizzas containing meat food products._ " How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that's silly, USDA changes Swiss cheese hole diameter regulation.
Click to expand...

I guess the feds had their eye on the cheese on that one!

And we wonder where our taxes go? To regulate holes in cheese!

I guess we will all sleep better knowing the feds are on the job, monitoring the cheese.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

sunchaser said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus little things like section 623, "_Exemptions from inspection requirements... Pizzas containing meat food products._ " How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that's silly, USDA changes Swiss cheese hole diameter regulation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the feds had their eye on the cheese on that one!
> 
> And we wonder where our taxes go? To regulate holes in cheese!
> 
> I guess we will all sleep better knowing the feds are on the job, monitoring the cheese.
Click to expand...

Hey, it's a shovel ready job!


----------



## GG-1

PetalumaLoco said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus little things like section 623, "_Exemptions from inspection requirements... Pizzas containing meat food products._ " How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that's silly, USDA changes Swiss cheese hole diameter regulation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the feds had their eye on the cheese on that one!
> 
> And we wonder where our taxes go? To regulate holes in cheese!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess we will all sleep better knowing the feds are on the job, monitoring the cheese.
> 
> Hey, it's a shovel ready job!
Click to expand...




> Well some of those inspectors do have a wholier than thou attitude. laugh.gif laugh.gif
> They were probably just going round and round on that one. laugh.gif laugh.gif


Aloha

Guess this tread tells us AU'ers are not Kosher, mixing meat and cheese


----------



## sunchaser

GG-1 said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus little things like section 623, "_Exemptions from inspection requirements... Pizzas containing meat food products._ " How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that's silly, USDA changes Swiss cheese hole diameter regulation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the feds had their eye on the cheese on that one!
> 
> And we wonder where our taxes go? To regulate holes in cheese!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess we will all sleep better knowing the feds are on the job, monitoring the cheese.
> 
> Hey, it's a shovel ready job!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well some of those inspectors do have a wholier than thou attitude. laugh.gif laugh.gif
> They were probably just going round and round on that one. laugh.gif laugh.gif
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Guess this tread tells us AU'ers are not Kosher, mixing meat and cheese
Click to expand...


Definitely a goy, but do enjoy a good kosher pastrami or corned beef sandwich on rye w/ a pickle!!! yumm!!!!


----------



## GG-1

sunchaser said:


> Definitely a goy, but do enjoy a good kosher pastrami or corned beef sandwich on rye w/ a pickle!!! yumm!!!!


Me too,  now if we could enjoy this on a train (rail content  )with coleslaw and Lemonade. Yum!


----------



## RRrich

sunchaser said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus little things like section 623, "_Exemptions from inspection requirements... Pizzas containing meat food products._ " How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that's silly, USDA changes Swiss cheese hole diameter regulation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the feds had their eye on the cheese on that one!
> 
> And we wonder where our taxes go? To regulate holes in cheese!
> 
> I guess we will all sleep better knowing the feds are on the job, monitoring the cheese.
Click to expand...

To monitor the holes, do they have to cut the cheese?


----------



## Ryan

RRrich said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus little things like section 623, "_Exemptions from inspection requirements... Pizzas containing meat food products._ " How in the world did Pizza get a specific exception written into the law?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that's silly, USDA changes Swiss cheese hole diameter regulation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess the feds had their eye on the cheese on that one!
> 
> And we wonder where our taxes go? To regulate holes in cheese!
> 
> I guess we will all sleep better knowing the feds are on the job, monitoring the cheese.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To monitor the holes, do they have to cut the cheese?
Click to expand...

Aww, now that joke just stinks!


----------



## catblue

This topic has gone from getting good steak, to opinions as to how a good steak should be cooked, to contaminated meat, to holes in cheese and ending with cutting the cheese. Too funny!

But seriously we have no real way to know if or when we might get contaminated food till it is too late. I had rather not think about it too much or I will be afraid to eat anything.

Back to the steak discussion. If the steak was marinated in a good marinate and then cooked right it needs nothing more. No need to smother it in steak sauce. It will be good and tender even cooked well done.

Of course this is just my humble opinion.


----------



## frj1983

catblue said:


> This topic has gone from getting good steak, to opinions as to how a good steak should be cooked, to contaminated meat, to holes in cheese and ending with cutting the cheese. Too funny!
> But seriously we have no real way to know if or when we might get contaminated food till it is too late. I had rather not think about it too much or I will be afraid to eat anything.
> 
> Back to the steak discussion. If the steak was marinated in a good marinate and then cooked right it needs nothing more. No need to smother it in steak sauce. It will be good and tender even cooked well done.
> 
> Of course this is just my humble opinion.


You're right Catblue,

This whole (or shall I say hole) string has certainly run the gamut. Next thing you know, we'll be talking about the Veggie Burgers which Amtrak serves. I had mine with bacon last year on the CONO and the whole dining car went into gales of laughter about it. OK, I'm like Rick Bayless when he states: "I'm vegetarian except for bacon!" :lol:


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

Or we could include the "Philly" cheesesteak in this and cover it all including Amtrak to get to Philadelphia for the Steak Sandwich "Wiz" in true Philly style.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

*invokes Weber's Law*

Do you think they'll offer steak on the NOL-SAS stub train?


----------



## sunchaser

Green Maned Lion said:


> *invokes Weber's Law*
> Do you think they'll offer steak on the NOL-SAS stub train?



Hey GML, I know it's off topic, but what is a 'stub train'? :unsure:


----------



## Green Maned Lion

sunchaser said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> *invokes Weber's Law*
> Do you think they'll offer steak on the NOL-SAS stub train?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey GML, I know it's off topic, but what is a 'stub train'? :unsure:
Click to expand...

It is a train which primarily exists to provide further service from a point on a trains route to a point it does not serve. For example, the train that ran from Boston to Albany to convey passengers to and from the Lake Shore Limited was a stub train. Now, of course, we have a through train that provides that service.

Weber's law is an old joke about how if a topic goes on for too long, it will eventually result in a debate about the Sunset Limited.


----------



## sunchaser

Green Maned Lion said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> *invokes Weber's Law*
> Do you think they'll offer steak on the NOL-SAS stub train?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey GML, I know it's off topic, but what is a 'stub train'? :unsure:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is a train which primarily exists to provide further service from a point on a trains route to a point it does not serve. For example, the train that ran from Boston to Albany to convey passengers to and from the Lake Shore Limited was a stub train. Now, of course, we have a through train that provides that service.
> 
> Weber's law is an old joke about how if a topic goes on for too long, it will eventually result in a debate about the Sunset Limited.
Click to expand...

Thanks, GML!!! But I'll leave the debate about the Sunset Limited in your capable hands, as I have no experience with the Limited!!  The question should be then, has this topic gone on for too long yet?


----------



## p&sr

catblue said:


> I am a VERY LEAN, NO FAT at all, WELL DONE person with all my meat choices. With the exception of a good lean chuck or sirloin burger. I am aware there are "rare steak" lovers. I am just not one of them. I'll go ahead and "jump in front of the train" so to speak and add I don't eat seafood either. So depending on what the Chiefs Choice is, the only other option seems to be chicken and I only eat the white meat of chicken. So yes I am a picky eater...


That's pretty much my own thinking. Chicken on a Train is "old reliable". The steaks might be good, often times are not, so why risk it (especially in Coach, where Steak is the most expensive item on the Menu). Seafood is good in a Seafood Restaurant, but what can a Train understand of such things? BBQ is good at a Barbeque Restaurant, but probably too messy to really enjoy on a Train. And Vegetarian Lasagna is not really my idea of food.

Lamb is good, and they may have some other good meat specialties from time to time. But you really can't go wrong with Chicken. Always good, often excellent, and should have plenty of White Meat to please picky eaters.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

i've gotten chicken once didn't like it too spicy. the build your own burger is nice.


----------



## sunchaser

p&sr said:


> catblue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a VERY LEAN, NO FAT at all, WELL DONE person with all my meat choices. With the exception of a good lean chuck or sirloin burger. I am aware there are "rare steak" lovers. I am just not one of them. I'll go ahead and "jump in front of the train" so to speak and add I don't eat seafood either. So depending on what the Chiefs Choice is, the only other option seems to be chicken and I only eat the white meat of chicken. So yes I am a picky eater...
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much my own thinking. Chicken on a Train is "old reliable". The steaks might be good, often times are not, so why risk it (especially in Coach, where Steak is the most expensive item on the Menu). Seafood is good in a Seafood Restaurant, but what can a Train understand of such things? BBQ is good at a Barbeque Restaurant, but probably too messy to really enjoy on a Train. And Vegetarian Lasagna is not really my idea of food.
> 
> Lamb is good, and they may have some other good meat specialties from time to time. But you really can't go wrong with Chicken. Always good, often excellent, and should have plenty of White Meat to please picky eaters.
Click to expand...


Is there such a thing as train food then?

It seems that there is an attempt to serve regional foods based on that train, like they used to do when trains first added diners. I would expect the regional choices should be fairly good if prepared correctly.

We went to a chain restaurant about a month ago & I had BBQ chicken. It was grilled with a squirt of sauce applied after grilling. Not very good, but what did I expect from a pancake house? I didn't want pancakes, I wanted lunch. Oh well.


----------



## wayman

sunchaser said:


> Is there such a thing as train food then?It seems that there is an attempt to serve regional foods based on that train, like they used to do when trains first added diners.  I would expect the regional choices should be fairly good if prepared correctly.


They used to stop and pick up the fresh, regional ingredients along the way. _That_ was what defined "train food" in the golden era of dining cars--a restaurant where you could have absolutely fresh local specialty dishes from several different locales all in the same restaurant, because the restaurant itself moved from locale to locale. The first night on the westbound Empire Builder, you might get fantastic steaks brought on board from the Chicago stockyards, slaughtered that morning; the second night you might get fresh Montana trout, caught that morning and brought to a station that afternoon and loaded onto the diner. Then fresh apples from Washington for the final lunch, loaded on at Yakima. There's no way you could get that menu anywhere other than that particular train.


----------



## NETrainfan

wayman said:


> Ok, here's some extremely current info, since I'm posting from the Silver Star in northern Florida, having just eaten the Flatiron Steak
> First, there's no asterisk, star, or footnote on the current menu about beef entrée substitutions. Single asterisk is about alcohol and appetizer not being included for sleeper class passengers. Double asterisk is the FDA warning about rare steak. I can't speak for menus before Friday, or in the near future, but right now there's no such note.
> 
> Second, my server (an excellent 20-year veteran adept at carefully serving coffee over some of CSX's worst track) said steaks would be changing in June. They'll still be Flatiron, same caterer, but Amtrak has requested that the caterer do some pre-cooking to the steaks. This is temporary, just for the summer. The reason is that most people order steaks medium to well, and cooking them all that way takes a lot of time; they don't feel like they can handle that amount of cooking time per steak with only one chef during peak season. Steaks will still be "cooked to order" on board; but unfortunately, for lovers of rare steak, this means we may be out of luck for a few months. Nobody else should notice a difference. Again, this is a temporary measure for peak season, starting within the next month and probably lasting three or four months, according to my server.
> 
> Third, I had the steak tonight, prepared rare, and it was quite good. I think the other entrées are better nowadays, but I was very satisfied with my steak. It's no Peter Luger, Chicago Chop House, Amarillo Big Texan, etc, but that's fine by me--diner 8551 has better ambience, friendlier staff, and nicer scenery  The corn and pepper vegetable medley was what shocked me--I'm used to the vegetables being dreadful, and these were tasty. And the baked potato was fluffy. It's nice that they're putting some care into the entire meal now.



Agree that they are putting more care into the entire meal. Had a very good chicken entree on our April train trip- included the corn medley which didn't shock me, but which was very tasty- kind of a memorable meal- even the lettuce salad was good.


----------



## catblue

I think I am a pretty good cook and any good cook can take what they have available and make it taste pretty good. Amtrak has "Chefs" so seems they could do the same. I am not expecting to have the very best meal of my life. I am hoping for something pretty good. Other than being a picky eater I am not hard to please.


----------



## had8ley

Maybe we can kill this one right here...I had the very best flat iron, medium rare, on #19 Wednesday night that you could ever sink your teeth into. The ice cream was terrific and even the salt was good!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Hey, the Flat Iron on Amtrak might not be up to Morton's standards, but the worst flat iron I had on Amtrak blew the best flat iron I had at Charlie Brown's outta the water and on its way to Cuba.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I always look at it this way-if you enjoy Denny's or IHOP, then you should have no problems with Amtrak chow.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I always look at it this way-if you enjoy Denny's or IHOP, then you should have no problems with Amtrak chow.


If I was an Amtrak chef, I'd be rather insulted. I know the food isn't as good as it used to be, but please!


----------



## Ryan

Green Maned Lion said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always look at it this way-if you enjoy Denny's or IHOP, then you should have no problems with Amtrak chow.
> 
> 
> 
> If I was an Amtrak chef, I'd be rather insulted. I know the food isn't as good as it used to be, but please!
Click to expand...

I concur - every meal I've had aboard surpasses the quality level of Denny's/IHOP.


----------



## sunchaser

HokieNav said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always look at it this way-if you enjoy Denny's or IHOP, then you should have no problems with Amtrak chow.
> 
> 
> 
> If I was an Amtrak chef, I'd be rather insulted. I know the food isn't as good as it used to be, but please!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I concur - every meal I've had aboard surpasses the quality level of Denny's/IHOP.
Click to expand...


I certainly hope it's better than Denny's or IHOP. IHOP was where I got that 'bbq chicken'. It was a return trip to the restaurant because hubby wanted to give them a second chance. He wasn't impressed the second time, either. He's not real hard to please, neither am I. It seemed the cooks weren't very experienced.


----------



## the Other Mike

sunchaser said:


> HokieNav said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always look at it this way-if you enjoy Denny's or IHOP, then you should have no problems with Amtrak chow.
> 
> 
> 
> If I was an Amtrak chef, I'd be rather insulted. I know the food isn't as good as it used to be, but please!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I concur - every meal I've had aboard surpasses the quality level of Denny's/IHOP.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I certainly hope it's better than Denny's or IHOP. IHOP was where I got that 'bbq chicken'. It was a return trip to the restaurant because hubby wanted to give them a second chance. He wasn't impressed the second time, either. He's not real hard to please, neither am I. It seemed the cooks weren't very experienced.
Click to expand...


And do you order pancakes at Ruth's Chris ?

:huh:


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Chain's generally suck. Always go local for the win.


----------



## cpamtfan

If anyone has gotten the July issue of Trains Magazine, it has a article about how Amtrak has renound chefs testing out new food for the new diner menus (due to come out tommorow  ). One of new items (due to come out on the Acela FC and EB) is bison meatloaf. Its an interesting article.

cpamtfan-Peter


----------



## D T Nelson

cpamtfan said:


> If anyone has gotten the July issue of Trains Magazine, it has a article about how Amtrak has renound chefs testing out new food for the new diner menus (due to come out tommorow  ). One of new items (due to come out on the Acela FC and EB) is bison meatloaf. Its an interesting article.


Here is that article: http://www.trains.com/trn/default.aspx?c=a&id=5061

No grilled flat iron steak this summer, June through October; braised flat iron steak in a bordelaise sauce instead. Egad.


----------



## ruudkeulers

D T Nelson said:


> Here is that article: http://www.trains.com/trn/default.aspx?c=a&id=5061


I get a bit confused over the terminology in that article: If _entree_ stands for main course, how does Amtrak call the first course? Dessert?


----------



## Neil_M

ruudkeulers said:


> D T Nelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is that article: http://www.trains.com/trn/default.aspx?c=a&id=5061
> 
> 
> 
> I get a bit confused over the terminology in that article: If _entree_ stands for main course, how does Amtrak call the first course? Dessert?
Click to expand...

You have to go easy on them, they are American after all....... 

In America the main course is sometimes called the 'entree', strange but true!

It always sounds better in French anyway, even if you pick the wrong word to use.......


----------



## ruudkeulers

Neil_M said:


> ruudkeulers said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D T Nelson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is that article: http://www.trains.com/trn/default.aspx?c=a&id=5061
> 
> 
> 
> I get a bit confused over the terminology in that article: If _entree_ stands for main course, how does Amtrak call the first course? Dessert?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have to go easy on them, they are American after all.......
> 
> In America the main course is sometimes called the 'entree', strange but true!
> 
> It always sounds better in French anyway, even if you pick the wrong word to use.......
Click to expand...

Wonder what the waiter will come up with when I ask for a _hors d'oeuvre_ or an _amuse_ 

But seriously, as I don't want to run into too many culinary surprises: any idea when an entree is a first course and when a main course? I mean, if I order an entree from the menu what am I ordering?


----------



## Neil_M

ruudkeulers said:


> Wonder what the waiter will come up with when I ask for a _hors d'oeuvre_ or an _amuse_  But seriously, as I don't want to run into too many culinary surprises: any idea when an entree is a first course and when a main course? I mean, if I order an entree from the menu what am I ordering?


Generally it's appetizer/entree/dessert in the US. Sometimes 'mains' is used instead of entree.

Usually the menus are laid out in the usual format, so its easy to work out!


----------



## RTOlson

In most U.S. dining situations, there are only a limited number of courses. Here's how I remember suppers on Amtrak trains:

- Appetizer. (It's extra and it has additional cost. The only item is the buffalo wings, if I remember correctly.)

- Salad and bread. (This typically doesn't have a unique name in most dining situations.)

- Main course. With entree and sides.

- Dessert (cheesecake, ice cream, etc.).

It appears that the Trains article looked primarily at the entrees, but I would assume the other aspects of the meal would remain largely the same.

EDIT: I can see that others have answered the question as well (I didn't see that the thread had jumped to a new page). I think the information is still relevant.


----------



## Longford

Putting the jokes aside for a moment, while not bad I wouldn't describe the food I had on my recent Empire Builder trip as better than what a Denny's (or similar restaurant) serves - nor the prices reflective of much quality. I suspect Amtrak struggles to meet chain restaurant food quality/preparation standards. My meals were okay to good food and considering the environment it was a reasonably good value (captive clientel). I suspect the service in the Dining Car could be improved - the level of professionalism - without much effort - given the determination to do so.

Rail fans probably too easily accept lesser standards than they should (or would off the trains) because they're thrilled just to have the continuing opportunity to travel this way (on the long-distance trains).

The Empire Builder Dining Car Menu will change mid-Summere 2009, but until then if you click on the link which follows you'll see a reproduction of what appeared in the _Empire Builder Magazine_ on my train (the same as the Dining Car Menu you're handed when you sit down).

Empire Builder Dining Car Menu


----------



## Bierboy

Joel N. Weber II said:


> ...My experience has been that when I'm in a sleeping car, simply eating the food that's available in the dining car ``for free'' is plenty.


Wow, you can say that again!! We had breakfast this past Sunday on the EB on the way to Chicago, and, by lunchtime we were far from hungry. We had a 90-minute layover in Chicago before we boarded the Illinois Zephyr to Galesburg, so we had our SCA get us lunches "to go". She even put them into a shopping-type bag with handles so we could carry them with us into the Metropolitan Lounge. There we sat, eating our "lunch" around 5 p.m. prior to boarding the 383 to Galesburg. It was great!


----------



## EB_OBS

The dining car menu officially changes for the summer peak season tomorrow, June 2nd in Seattle and on Saturday, June 6th leaving Chicago. There will still be a little bit of product from the previous menu to be run out. These products being items that were deleted from the menu entirely. For example most all the desserts were changed out. The old product will still need to be used up to the extent possible.


----------



## RRrich

ez223 said:


> The dining car menu officially changes for the summer peak season tomorrow, June 2nd in Seattle and on Saturday, June 6th leaving Chicago. There will still be a little bit of product from the previous menu to be run out. These products being items that were deleted from the menu entirely. For example most all the desserts were changed out. The old product will still need to be used up to the extent possible.


Off the menu specials????


----------



## EB_OBS

RRrich said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The dining car menu officially changes for the summer peak season tomorrow, June 2nd in Seattle and on Saturday, June 6th leaving Chicago. There will still be a little bit of product from the previous menu to be run out. These products being items that were deleted from the menu entirely. For example most all the desserts were changed out. The old product will still need to be used up to the extent possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Off the menu specials????
Click to expand...


The Chef's Marketplace specials are;

Breakfast, turkey sausage patties with biscuits and cream gravy OR knife & fork breakfast sourdough sandwich with scrambled egg, cheddar and Canadian bacon

Lunch, train #7, Pike Place Market, Beechers Macaroni & Cheese OR roast turkey with mushroom cream sauce & garlic mashed potatoes on train #8

Dinner, American bison meatloaf with mushroom cream sauce OR braised lamb shank returns from a previous menu

The seafood for dinner wil be Atlantic salmon with asparagus sauce OR catfish filet with roast red pepper sauce


----------



## jackal

Green Maned Lion said:


> Chain's generally suck. Always go local for the win.


Actually, in my experience, Ruth's Chris is extremely good, and it hardly feels like a chain but rather an upscale fine restaurant. The service was impeccable and the food was excellent. I've only had one or two steaks in my life that I thought met or surpassed (barely) my steak at Ruth's Chris.

They use USDA Prime steaks, which accounts for some of that, but I'm sure they use real (and perhaps classically trained) chefs and not line cooks (no idea about this, though). I do especially like the way they serve it sizzling on a 500-degree plate.

I think you mentioned Morton's as being good, earlier, too, which is another chain, so not all chains are bad things--just those who cater to the lowest common denominator of food quality and customer demand.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

jackal said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chain's generally suck. Always go local for the win.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, in my experience, Ruth's Chris is extremely good, and it hardly feels like a chain but rather an upscale fine restaurant. The service was impeccable and the food was excellent. I've only had one or two steaks in my life that I thought met or surpassed (barely) my steak at Ruth's Chris.
> 
> They use USDA Prime steaks, which accounts for some of that, but I'm sure they use real (and perhaps classically trained) chefs and not line cooks (no idea about this, though). I do especially like the way they serve it sizzling on a 500-degree plate.
> 
> I think you mentioned Morton's as being good, earlier, too, which is another chain, so not all chains are bad things--just those who cater to the lowest common denominator of food quality and customer demand.
Click to expand...

Chain's GENERALLY suck. I don't care much for Ruth's Chris, but I do like Mortons. You should still always go local (if there is an independant high class steakhouse, its the better choice) to get the best possible food and local flavour.


----------



## Joel N. Weber II

Neil_M said:


> Sometimes 'mains' is used instead of entree.


I think we'd call it the ``main course''. ``mains'' reminds me of how the British refer to their 50 hz, 230 V AC.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

Ok, I get to resurrect this thread because I ate multiple red wine braised Flat Iron beef dinners on my just completed CZ, LSL, SWC and CS trip.

It's pot roast.

It was good pot roast, and great pot roast on the CS. But pot roast just the same. As others have said, it was good for what it was, but shame on Amtrak for dressing it up on the menu to be something different.

Bring back the Flat Iron Steak, or change the menu please.


----------



## cpamtfan

PetalumaLoco said:


> Ok, I get to resurrect this thread because I ate multiple red wine braised Flat Iron beef dinners on my just completed CZ, LSL, SWC and CS trip.
> It's pot roast.
> 
> It was good pot roast, and great pot roast on the CS. But pot roast just the same. As others have said, it was good for what it was, but shame on Amtrak for dressing it up on the menu to be something different.
> 
> Bring back the Flat Iron Steak, or change the menu please.



Blame the supplier. They supplier supplied the "pot roast". They do plan on brining it back for the winter season, when travel is down.

I just have one thought :huh: . Has anyone tried to find flat iron steak, then braise it? I mean this could be steak, but just tasting like pot roast h34r: ? I haven't been on a train with a dining car this year, but how can you just pass it immediately as pot roast?


----------



## Upstate

cpamtfan said:


> Blame the supplier. They supplier supplied the "pot roast". They do plan on brining it back for the winter season, when travel is down.


No, I will blame Amtrak. They are the ones that I buy tickets from. They are the ones that leave it written on their menu as a steak. If the supplier can't supply what Amtrak needs then Amtrak needs to find another supplier. This isn't a one time thing where for example they accidentally received a case of pot roasts instead of steaks, this is an ongoing problem.


----------



## p&sr

cpamtfan said:


> I haven't been on a train with a dining car this year, but how can you just pass it immediately as pot roast?


Once again we have a choice. Either the meat is NOT a steak... or they have done something to it such that NOBODY can recognize it, even as a steak-that-once-was.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Be it Pot Roast or highly modified Steak, I do not care as whatever it is, it is GOOD! Toss on a Baked Potato and the Mixed Veggies, capped with a wicked dessert and I'm set for an evening of Lounging and Sleeping.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Be it Pot Roast or highly modified Steak, I do not care as whatever it is, it is GOOD! Toss on a Baked Potato and the Mixed Veggies, capped with a wicked dessert and I'm set for an evening of Lounging and Sleeping.


Oh, it was good, I like pot roast, but it's mislabeled. If they menued it as pot roast, I'd have nothing to complain about.


----------



## Guest

I had it on the SL and I thought it was terrible!Being a texan I know good beef and this is not good beef!Perhaps lovers of pot roast like this stuff,OK, but change the menu and list wine cooked,braised pot roast which is what it is!(and @ $22.50 as many have said truely not worth it!


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Guest said:


> I had it on the SL and I thought it was terrible!Being a texan I know good beef and this is not good beef!Perhaps lovers of pot roast like this stuff,OK, but change the menu and list wine cooked,braised pot roast which is what it is!(and @ $22.50 as many have said truely not worth it!


Being from Ohio I can say longhorn steer is overrated. :unsure:

A good broast is as good as a good grilled cut. Believe it or not that is flat iron steak, steak is a cut not a method of cooking.


----------



## frj1983

Green Maned Lion said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> *invokes Weber's Law*
> Do you think they'll offer steak on the NOL-SAS stub train?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey GML, I know it's off topic, but what is a 'stub train'? :unsure:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is a train which primarily exists to provide further service from a point on a trains route to a point it does not serve. For example, the train that ran from Boston to Albany to convey passengers to and from the Lake Shore Limited was a stub train. Now, of course, we have a through train that provides that service.
> 
> Weber's law is an old joke about how if a topic goes on for too long, it will eventually result in a debate about the Sunset Limited.
Click to expand...


And thank goodness for that as my Wife and I will not have to get off the train in Albany this Saturday!


----------



## cpamtfan

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had it on the SL and I thought it was terrible!Being a texan I know good beef and this is not good beef!Perhaps lovers of pot roast like this stuff,OK, but change the menu and list wine cooked,braised pot roast which is what it is!(and @ $22.50 as many have said truely not worth it!
> 
> 
> 
> Being from Ohio I can say longhorn steer is overrated. :unsure:
> 
> A good broast is as good as a good grilled cut. Believe it or not that is flat iron steak, steak is a cut not a method of cooking.
Click to expand...


So you also think it is steak just not to the tastes of everyone?


----------



## Neil_M

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had it on the SL and I thought it was terrible!Being a texan I know good beef and this is not good beef!Perhaps lovers of pot roast like this stuff,OK, but change the menu and list wine cooked,braised pot roast which is what it is!(and @ $22.50 as many have said truely not worth it!
> 
> 
> 
> Being from Ohio I can say longhorn steer is overrated. :unsure:
> 
> A good broast is as good as a good grilled cut. Believe it or not that is flat iron steak, steak is a cut not a method of cooking.
Click to expand...

In your constant need to be right all the time you missed his point.

Rightly or wrongly, people perceive 'steak' to be the best bit of beef, and expect it to be grilled as you like and served like that, maybe with the addition of a sauce.

Pot Roast is generally thought to be suitable for cheaper cuts of meat that benefit from a longer slower cooking time, and although it can be very tasty, it would be thought of as cheaper than steak.

So you go into a restaurant and order the steak, the waiter tells you there is no steak, but there is a braised beef dish, which you order. Would you expect the cost to be the same?

No.

Because why would you use the same cut of meat you would grill to make a pot roast, human nature would lead you to think you are being ripped off or short changed.

Which you probably are.


----------



## sky12065

jim55 said:


> Steak Lovers Beware! I just got off the Texas Eagle on 20 May at Chicago. The night before, I requested the flat iron steak. when it came it looked very good, but one bite and something was wrong. The guy across from me said "did you see the asterick (*) by the flat iron steak on the menue? I had not but roughly what it said was "during high demand, beef shanks (I think) will be substituted during high demand when flat iron steaks are no longer available. Other than that, it was a good trip. Ahead of tme at St Louis but :40 late at Chicago. Jim


 I haven't read the mountain of posts on this topic, but according to what was stated in the OP above, the "flat iron steak" and the substituted "beef flank" are simply not the same thing.

The flat iron steak is taken from the shoulder (1) of a cow (2) whereas the substituted beef flank is taken from the leg (3) of the steer or calf!

As for which is better...

1. Is there really an answer to that question, or

2. Is it for each to decide for themselves depending on their own individual taste?

I vote for choice 3. Both are yummy! 

You can learn more about the flat iron steaks from footnote (1) below:

(1) http://en.allexperts.com/e/f/fl/flat_iron_steak.htm

(2) http://en.allexperts.com/e/c/co/cow_(disambiguation).htm

(3) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shank


----------



## AAARGH!

I like them both, but don't call a roast a flat iron steak. It isn't. It is misleading. That being said, if it said pot roast, I would still get it, but don't give me a pot roast when it _says_ flat iron.

Truth in advertising should go for menus also.


----------



## Ispolkom

Neil_M said:


> Rightly or wrongly, people perceive 'steak' to be the best bit of beef, and expect it to be grilled as you like and served like that, maybe with the addition of a sauce.


You're right. People have expected steak to be grilled since time immemorial. Look at the word itself. According to my dictionary "steak" is not derived from a part of the cow, it's derived from the cooking method, steikja, to roast on a stake (Since it's Old Norse, this usage probably predates grills). I'd say this trumps any marketing claims to the contrary.

Not that I don't love pot roast, mind you.


----------



## PaulM

On a trip recently my wife ordered flat iron steak in a restaurant, remembering how she liked Amtrak's version. I took the opportunity to mention that flat iron no longer equals steak on Amtrak. She must have not have been paying attention because on the trip home on the LSL, she ordered the whatever it is.

I don't recall the word steak on the menu. Nevertheless, one word describes the two tiny pieces of stew meat - embarrassing. If it was pot roast, it never saw a pot.


----------



## Upstate

PaulM said:


> I don't recall the word steak on the menu.


Its not on all the menus as steak. On the Amtrak website it looks like only the Crescent and Empire Builder actually use the word steak. I know that about a month ago when I ordered the steak that was on the menu on the Crescent they brought me out the roast.


----------



## Ispolkom

On the Amtrak Web site the Lakeshore Limited menu has "Red Wine Braised Flat Iron of Beef" while the other trains menu gives us "Braised Flat Iron Bordelaise." To give Amtrak credit, the S word isn't used anywhere, and both descriptions do clearly say "braised." The descriptions seem to be very similar.

The Empire Builder menu has "Butcher's Choice Cut Steak," but that seems to be what I'd consider a proper steak grilled to order (though I notice they don't use the word grill). Are these the products we're talking about?


----------



## D T Nelson

I have not eaten the new braised flat iron steak. But according to this article at Trains.com, it is the same cut of meat as the grilled flat iron steak, just cooked a different way, to provide for faster service during the peak season. Says Amtrak's top chef, "The flat iron is one of the few beef cuts that has the ability to be cooked with dry heat as a steak, or braised in a flavorful liquid, and produce a juicy, fork-tender, flavorful product. We have had great luck with the flat iron as a cooked-to-order steak, and my goal, knowing the versatility of the cut, was to offer a preparation that would successfully showcase it as a braised item."


----------



## Guest

D T Nelson said:


> I have not eaten the new braised flat iron steak. But according to this article at Trains.com, it is the same cut of meat as the grilled flat iron steak, just cooked a different way, to provide for faster service during the peak season. Says Amtrak's top chef, "The flat iron is one of the few beef cuts that has the ability to be cooked with dry heat as a steak, or braised in a flavorful liquid, and produce a juicy, fork-tender, flavorful product. We have had great luck with the flat iron as a cooked-to-order steak, and my goal, knowing the versatility of the cut, was to offer a preparation that would successfully showcase it as a braised item."


Bet Amtraks "top chef" doesnt eat that stuff,he probably grills himself a big filet to taste!I know this stuff is going away,Amtrak should send everyone who didnt like it and complains a voucher @ least for the cost of that so called top of the line meal!I dont like pot roast as a rule,and this is a great way to ruin what probably is fairly good meat!Just be honest andmake your top of the menu entree "top of the line"!!


----------



## sky12065

Ispolkom said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, people perceive 'steak' to be the best bit of beef, and expect it to be grilled as you like and served like that, maybe with the addition of a sauce.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right. People have expected steak to be grilled since time immemorial. Look at the word itself. According to my dictionary "steak" is not derived from a part of the cow, it's derived from the cooking method, steikja, to roast on a stake (Since it's Old Norse, this usage probably predates grills). I'd say this trumps any marketing claims to the contrary.
> 
> Not that I don't love pot roast, mind you.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see your dictionary source that states it's derived from the "cooking method"! I checked eight definition sources and found no mention of any "cooking method"!

There are several kinds of steaks whereas you can have a beef steak from a few different parts of the cow and that includes a groundbeef hamburger steak; you can also have a ham steak; you can have a large cross section of a large fish i.e. swordfish steak; you can have a pork steak, a venison steak and a bear steak. Why you can even have a steak that's used to kill a vampire, but I'm not sure how you would cook it... it's going to be tough and a risk to your teeth, even if its marinated - no matter how it's cooked. 

BTW, there is no reason why you cannot roast a beef flat iron steak (aka top blade steak). It's part of the shoulder and a shoulder is the best choice of beef for roasting. The question that is more important though is... is roasting the best way to cook a flat iron steak? The answer is no! Braising is the better way to cook a flat iron steak and that's because it has a large band of connective tissue running down the center of the steak, and braising does a better job of breaking down that tissue.


----------



## MrFSS

sky12065 said:


> Why you can even have a steak that's used to kill a vampire, but I'm not sure how you would cook it... it's going to be tough and a risk to your teeth, even if its marinated - no matter how it's cooked.


I think that one is spelled S T A K E.


----------



## JayPea

As for me, I stick with fish or chicken............


----------



## haolerider

JayPea said:


> As for me, I stick with fish or chicken............


Isn't it about time to kill this topic? How many times can people talk about this entree?


----------



## sky12065

MrFSS said:


> sky12065 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why you can even have a steak that's used to kill a vampire, but I'm not sure how you would cook it... it's going to be tough and a risk to your teeth, even if its marinated - no matter how it's cooked.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that one is spelled S T A K E.
Click to expand...

True, but spelling it that wouldn't have been as funny!  But then again, I would steak my reputation on it! :lol:


----------



## Ispolkom

sky12065 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, people perceive 'steak' to be the best bit of beef, and expect it to be grilled as you like and served like that, maybe with the addition of a sauce.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right. People have expected steak to be grilled since time immemorial. Look at the word itself. According to my dictionary "steak" is not derived from a part of the cow, it's derived from the cooking method, steikja, to roast on a stake (Since it's Old Norse, this usage probably predates grills). I'd say this trumps any marketing claims to the contrary.
> 
> Not that I don't love pot roast, mind you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd like to see your dictionary source that states it's derived from the "cooking method"! I checked eight definition sources and found no mention of any "cooking method"!
> 
> There are several kinds of steaks whereas you can have a beef steak from a few different parts of the cow and that includes a groundbeef hamburger steak; you can also have a ham steak; you can have a large cross section of a large fish i.e. swordfish steak; you can have a pork steak, a venison steak and a bear steak. Why you can even have a steak that's used to kill a vampire, but I'm not sure how you would cook it... it's going to be tough and a risk to your teeth, even if its marinated - no matter how it's cooked.
Click to expand...

Webster's Third International, my favorite unabridged dictionary, gives this etymology: Middle English steyke, steke, from Old Norse steik; akin to Old Norse steikja to roast on a spit, stik stick, stake --

Then, let's turn to the definitions. Under "steak" we find "a slice of meat cut from a fleshy part of a beef carcass usually in cross section and usually cooked or to be *cooked by broiling*. Under beefsteak we find "a steak of beef usually cut from the hindquarter and suitable for *broiling or frying.*

I'd argue, though I present no evidence, that usages like "ham steak" and "swordfish steak" also imply that the cut will be broiled or fried. You'd certainly not braise a ham steak. But now you've gotten me wondering why you "stake a bet." I'll be pulling old books off the shelf tonight.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

The grandson of a meat cutter, and former meat packer, let me say it one last time:

The method of preparation does NOT define the cut of meat... There are steaks for braising, roasting, grilling, frying, broiling, and stew. You want proof? Try grilling a flank steak and then try braising a strip steak, then try cooking them properly-- the flank by braising and the strip by grilling. You'll find the quality of each meat to be better when they are cooked properly.

Niel you can go try this yourself, but I believe that the British butchers use a different method of cutting than the American map-- however it shouldn't change that steak cut from the shoulder (the chuck) is best roasted or braised due to the _relative_ leanness of the cut compared to other cuts.

Now here's why a flat iron steak is good braised or grilled... because they are not lean relative to the mass of the chuck (typically used for roast, hence chuck roast). This means you don't have to cook a flat iron forever in order to make it tender-- the fatty tissue count is high enough that grilling is all that is needed to break them down whereas a chuck roast (or pot roast if you prefer) must take hours in the oven.

Go to your local butcher and check out the meat case. Look at the marble, the white veins of fat, in the meat. You'll find that meats cut from the hindquarters (strip, sirloin, t-bone, porterhouse, flank) are more marbled than the cuts from the forequarter (the chuck, rib, brisket).

Technically cuts from the middle of the steer are best for grilling, the ribs and loins... however butchers divide the quarters between the ribs and loins because of Jewish dietary law... the hindquarter is not Kosher.

Did I mention he was a Jewish meatcutter?


----------



## sky12065

Ispolkom said:


> sky12065 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, people perceive 'steak' to be the best bit of beef, and expect it to be grilled as you like and served like that, maybe with the addition of a sauce.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right. People have expected steak to be grilled since time immemorial. Look at the word itself. According to my dictionary "steak" is not derived from a part of the cow, it's derived from the cooking method, steikja, to roast on a stake (Since it's Old Norse, this usage probably predates grills). I'd say this trumps any marketing claims to the contrary.
> 
> Not that I don't love pot roast, mind you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd like to see your dictionary source that states it's derived from the "cooking method"! I checked eight definition sources and found no mention of any "cooking method"!
> 
> There are several kinds of steaks whereas you can have a beef steak from a few different parts of the cow and that includes a groundbeef hamburger steak; you can also have a ham steak; you can have a large cross section of a large fish i.e. swordfish steak; you can have a pork steak, a venison steak and a bear steak. Why you can even have a steak that's used to kill a vampire, but I'm not sure how you would cook it... it's going to be tough and a risk to your teeth, even if its marinated - no matter how it's cooked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Webster's Third International, my favorite unabridged dictionary, gives this etymology: Middle English steyke, steke, from Old Norse steik; akin to Old Norse steikja to roast on a spit, stik stick, stake --
> 
> Then, let's turn to the definitions. Under "steak" we find "a slice of meat cut from a fleshy part of a beef carcass usually in cross section and usually cooked or to be *cooked by broiling*. Under beefsteak we find "a steak of beef usually cut from the hindquarter and suitable for *broiling or frying.*
> 
> I'd argue, though I present no evidence, that usages like "ham steak" and "swordfish steak" also imply that the cut will be broiled or fried. You'd certainly not braise a ham steak. But now you've gotten me wondering why you "stake a bet." I'll be pulling old books off the shelf tonight.
Click to expand...

In reading your response, it seems to me like you're trying to answer a question I didn't even ask! However, I have a feeling that I didn't correctly understand your objective when you made the statement "Look at the word itself. According to my dictionary "steak" is not derived from a part of the cow, it's derived from the cooking method"

I origionally thought that your saying "steak ...it's derived from the cooking method" was an actual definition rather than a part of the etymology! So in that context I now think I see your point and dispite my difficulty in comprehending that, I don't think I would disagree with what you've stated!

Now, everything you stated after "I'd argue" should be discarded because it's not relevant to anything I stated or intended on saying or implying even if something I said lead you to make those comments. And finally, the "stake a bet" comment! I didn't state "stake a bet"! What I did state was "steak my reputation" in another reply and it was strictly a statement made in humor!


----------



## Neil_M

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The grandson of a meat cutter, and former meat packer, let me say it one last time:
> The method of preparation does NOT define the cut of meat... There are steaks for braising, roasting, grilling, frying, broiling, and stew. You want proof? Try grilling a flank steak and then try braising a strip steak, then try cooking them properly-- the flank by braising and the strip by grilling. You'll find the quality of each meat to be better when they are cooked properly.
> 
> Niel you can go try this yourself, but I believe that the British butchers use a different method of cutting than the American map-- however it shouldn't change that steak cut from the shoulder (the chuck) is best roasted or braised due to the _relative_ leanness of the cut compared to other cuts.
> 
> Now here's why a flat iron steak is good braised or grilled... because they are not lean relative to the mass of the chuck (typically used for roast, hence chuck roast). This means you don't have to cook a flat iron forever in order to make it tender-- the fatty tissue count is high enough that grilling is all that is needed to break them down whereas a chuck roast (or pot roast if you prefer) must take hours in the oven.
> 
> Go to your local butcher and check out the meat case. Look at the marble, the white veins of fat, in the meat. You'll find that meats cut from the hindquarters (strip, sirloin, t-bone, porterhouse, flank) are more marbled than the cuts from the forequarter (the chuck, rib, brisket).
> 
> Technically cuts from the middle of the steer are best for grilling, the ribs and loins... however butchers divide the quarters between the ribs and loins because of Jewish dietary law... the hindquarter is not Kosher.
> 
> Did I mention he was a Jewish meatcutter?


Sorry, don't do religion. Especially when it comes to telling you what you can and cant eat, most odd.

All your points may or may not be true.

If you order a steak in a restaurant then you expect a grilled cut of beef.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

haolerider said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for me, I stick with fish or chicken............
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it about time to kill this topic? How many times can people talk about this entree?
Click to expand...

Well, how many times can they read about it?


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Neil_M said:


> Sorry, don't do religion. Especially when it comes to telling you what you can and cant eat, most odd.All your points may or may not be true.
> 
> If you order a steak in a restaurant then you expect a grilled cut of beef.


Correction YOU expect a grilled cut of beef... I expect a cut of beef properly prepared in respect of its individual qualities.


----------



## Neil_M

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, don't do religion. Especially when it comes to telling you what you can and cant eat, most odd.All your points may or may not be true.
> 
> If you order a steak in a restaurant then you expect a grilled cut of beef.
> 
> 
> 
> Correction YOU expect a grilled cut of beef... I expect a cut of beef properly prepared in respect of its individual qualities.
Click to expand...

At the risk of you dragging this even further into must have the last word land, I would think a grilled cut is what most people expect, despite your protestations. Funnily enough, that's what restaurants serve as well. Shocking that, isn't it?


----------



## PaulM

I wish people would stop digifying it by calling it pot roast. I like pot roast; but what I saw on the LSL #49 on 8/16/09 was not pot roast.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

PaulM said:


> I wish people would stop digifying it by calling it pot roast. I like pot roast; but what I saw on the LSL #49 on 8/16/09 was not pot roast.


The LSL doesn't have a proper diner. It has an entirely different method of service of any LD train...


----------



## cpamtfan

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish people would stop digifying it by calling it pot roast. I like pot roast; but what I saw on the LSL #49 on 8/16/09 was not pot roast.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL doesn't have a proper diner. It has an entirely different method of service of any LD train...
Click to expand...


But it does serve the flat iron bordelaise. Thats one of the better things that the diner-lite car can serve.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

cpamtfan said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish people would stop digifying it by calling it pot roast. I like pot roast; but what I saw on the LSL #49 on 8/16/09 was not pot roast.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL doesn't have a proper diner. It has an entirely different method of service of any LD train...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But it does serve the flat iron bordelaise. Thats one of the better things that the diner-lite car can serve.
Click to expand...

True, but-- I dunno, I can't defend the diner-lite. i don't have it in me :lol:


----------



## PetalumaLoco

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> cpamtfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish people would stop digifying it by calling it pot roast. I like pot roast; but what I saw on the LSL #49 on 8/16/09 was not pot roast.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL doesn't have a proper diner. It has an entirely different method of service of any LD train...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But it does serve the flat iron bordelaise. Thats one of the better things that the diner-lite car can serve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True, but-- I dunno, I can't defend the diner-lite. i don't have it in me :lol:
Click to expand...

Riding the CZ, LSL, SWC and CS in the last 3 weeks and ordering whatever wording the menu used for the flat iron, the LSL was the worst of the lot. Especially the veggies, but that's another issue. The CS dish was quite good.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

The condition of the sides will affect the palette and the coloring of the memory of the rest of the meal... but that's a separate thread I imagine.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The condition of the sides will affect the palette and the coloring of the memory of the rest of the meal... but that's a separate thread I imagine.


I get your point. However, I ate much of the steak before tasting veggies, and made up my mind then and there this was the worst cut of the trip so far. No doubt the sides are reinforcing my recall of that meal. Fortunately every meal after this was an improvement, so I guess that's a plus.


----------



## espeefoamer

I had the flatiron steak on the "Tehachapi" Starlight last January,and it was good,but still not quite as good as the New York strip steak Amtrak served many years ago.


----------



## had8ley

I wonder what Amtrak would do if I plugged in a George Foreman grill and started passing out real steaks in the sleepers?


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

had8ley said:


> I wonder what Amtrak would do if I plugged in a George Foreman grill and started passing out real steaks in the sleepers?


How do you call that a "grill" ?


----------



## DET63

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what Amtrak would do if I plugged in a George Foreman grill and started passing out real steaks in the sleepers?
> 
> 
> 
> How do you call that a "grill" ?
Click to expand...

Because that's what it's officially known as.

And if that bothers you, you can take it up with George himself!


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

DET63 said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what Amtrak would do if I plugged in a George Foreman grill and started passing out real steaks in the sleepers?
> 
> 
> 
> How do you call that a "grill" ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because that's what it's officially known as.
> 
> And if that bothers you, you can take it up with George himself!
Click to expand...

No such thing as a grill that doesn't use charcoal!

(jk... I know, I know, I know... I use propane, electric, and steam grills too)

At any rate, I thought of another way to think of it...

If steak is simply any amount of beef that has been fried or grilled, then if I put a four pound chuck roast on a grill-- does that make it steak? What about beef tongue fried in light oil? Is that tongue steak?

Before you think of saying "well if you cut the roast up" there, you've got it! The roast needs to be CUT! A steak is a CUT of meat....


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

had8ley said:


> I wonder what Amtrak would do if I plugged in a George Foreman grill and started passing out real steaks in the sleepers?


Nah, do it right and toss a Weber Kettle and some charcoal in your carry on and set that bad boy up in the Lower Level entry-I'm sure the SCA and Conductor will be more than happy to open the doors for you to vent the smoke if you cut them in on the bounty!


----------



## sky12065

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> No such thing as a grill that doesn't use charcoal!


Oh I don't know about that! When I was a kid my grandfather owned a grill and he didn't use charcoal! He needed plenty of ice to keep the beer cold while it was going through the tap's lines from the kegs, but no charcoal!


----------



## RailFanLNK

REAL steaks come from the land of Beef! NEBRASKA, I wished Amtrak used Cetiaks Steaks. They could order them online and have them delivered to Chicago! Best steak I've ever had. Puts Omaha Steaks to shame! I had the 1/2 chicken on my way home on Monday night. I always get the steak until this thread popped up.


----------



## PetalumaLoco

RailFanLNK said:


> REAL steaks come from the land of Beef! NEBRASKA, I wished Amtrak used Cetiaks Steaks. They could order them online and have them delivered to Chicago! Best steak I've ever had. Puts Omaha Steaks to shame! I had the 1/2 chicken on my way home on Monday night. I always get the steak until this thread popped up.


Do you mean Cetaks Steaks?







mmmm


----------



## RRrich

Anyone know the grilled Flat Iron STEAK will be restored to Amtrak?


----------



## RailFanLNK

Yes, I spelled it incorrectly. Its also pronounced "chet ox". I always send these steaks now to friends instead of Omaha steaks. I loved the Flat Iron Steak on Amtrak until all the negative reviews from this thread so I stuck with the chicken the other night.


----------



## had8ley

RRrich said:


> Anyone know the grilled Flat Iron STEAK will be restored to Amtrak?


Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the flat iron would "re-appear" in its intended form after the summer rush.


----------



## haolerider

had8ley said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know the grilled Flat Iron STEAK will be restored to Amtrak?
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the flat iron would "re-appear" in its intended form after the summer rush.
Click to expand...

yes, you are correct. The steak is taken off during the summer rush, since it takes a longer time to prepare and tends to back-log the meals coming out of the kitchen.


----------



## Bob Dylan

haolerider said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know the grilled Flat Iron STEAK will be restored to Amtrak?
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the flat iron would "re-appear" in its intended form after the summer rush.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, you are correct. The steak is taken off during the summer rush, since it takes a longer time to prepare and tends to back-log the meals coming out of the kitchen.
Click to expand...

Well if this is Amtraks excuse they may as well serve chicken nuggets,big macs and fries!Its supposed to be diner,not a fast food emporium!Save that stuff for the cafe cars/diner-lites-CCCs,when theres a full diner no excuse for crap that costs $22.50!Glad its going away,good riddance!!


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

jimhudson said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know the grilled Flat Iron STEAK will be restored to Amtrak?
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the flat iron would "re-appear" in its intended form after the summer rush.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, you are correct. The steak is taken off during the summer rush, since it takes a longer time to prepare and tends to back-log the meals coming out of the kitchen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well if this is Amtraks excuse they may as well serve chicken nuggets,big macs and fries!Its supposed to be diner,not a fast food emporium!Save that stuff for the cafe cars/diner-lites-CCCs,when theres a full diner no excuse for crap that costs $22.50!Glad its going away,good riddance!!
Click to expand...

*sigh*

You realize that a diner, as in a diner you find in your down like a Denny's... is based out of the old railroad diners?

This isn't supposed to be 5-star....


----------



## Bob Dylan

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know the grilled Flat Iron STEAK will be restored to Amtrak?
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the flat iron would "re-appear" in its intended form after the summer rush.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, you are correct. The steak is taken off during the summer rush, since it takes a longer time to prepare and tends to back-log the meals coming out of the kitchen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well if this is Amtraks excuse they may as well serve chicken nuggets,big macs and fries!Its supposed to be diner,not a fast food emporium!Save that stuff for the cafe cars/diner-lites-CCCs,when theres a full diner no excuse for crap that costs $22.50!Glad its going away,good riddance!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> You realize that a diner, as in a diner you find in your down like a Denny's... is based out of the old railroad diners?
> 
> This isn't supposed to be 5-star....
Click to expand...

Guess that passes for fine cuisine in Ohio ALC!!!I was around in the old days and Im here to tell you the food @ Dennys is better than some of that so called "convience food" that Amtrak tries to hustle!They need to spend more time on food,less on marketing and ad writers dreaming up food titles that in no way describe what is served!Lots of great beef all over the country,I agree!But till they cover me up and carry me away Ill still know a steak from a so called steak!Ane the food WAS better in the old days,most that were there will second this I do believe! :lol:


----------



## haolerider

jimhudson said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know the grilled Flat Iron STEAK will be restored to Amtrak?
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the flat iron would "re-appear" in its intended form after the summer rush.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, you are correct. The steak is taken off during the summer rush, since it takes a longer time to prepare and tends to back-log the meals coming out of the kitchen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well if this is Amtraks excuse they may as well serve chicken nuggets,big macs and fries!Its supposed to be diner,not a fast food emporium!Save that stuff for the cafe cars/diner-lites-CCCs,when theres a full diner no excuse for crap that costs $22.50!Glad its going away,good riddance!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> You realize that a diner, as in a diner you find in your down like a Denny's... is based out of the old railroad diners?
> 
> This isn't supposed to be 5-star....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guess that passes for fine cuisine in Ohio ALC!!!I was around in the old days and Im here to tell you the food @ Dennys is better than some of that so called "convience food" that Amtrak tries to hustle!They need to spend more time on food,less on marketing and ad writers dreaming up food titles that in no way describe what is served!Lots of great beef all over the country,I agree!But till they cover me up and carry me away Ill still know a steak from a so called steak!Ane the food WAS better in the old days,most that were there will second this I do believe! :lol:
Click to expand...

Most passengers are quite satisfied with the food on Amtrak, in fact, with the addition of the regional specials the passengers have been pleased and the Customer Satisfaction Index scores confirm that.

Now, since you seem fixated on the flat iron braised beef issue, I suggest you simply not order it.

Also, can you please put a few spaces between your sentences and maybe break up your thoughts into paragraphs, to make it easier to read?


----------



## PaulM

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish people would stop digifying it by calling it pot roast. I like pot roast; but what I saw on the LSL #49 on 8/16/09 was not pot roast.
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL doesn't have a proper diner. It has an entirely different method of *service* of any LD train...
Click to expand...

The service was great. It was the flatiron thing that was bad.
But if the flatiron whatever approaches pot roast on other trains, that's great!


----------



## Neil_M

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> *sigh*
> You realize that a diner, as in a diner you find in your down like a Denny's... is based out of the old railroad diners?
> 
> This isn't supposed to be 5-star....


Extra sigh.....

When a restaurant is busy, taking on extra staff is the usual response rather than dumbing down the menu and still charging the same price for a replacement of the premium item on the menu.....


----------



## ruudkeulers

Extra, extra sigh to paraphrase Gertrude Stein:

"Steak is a stake is a steak is a stake" from the famous poem Baked Emily.

Ruud


----------



## haolerider

Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *sigh*
> You realize that a diner, as in a diner you find in your down like a Denny's... is based out of the old railroad diners?
> 
> This isn't supposed to be 5-star....
> 
> 
> 
> Extra sigh.....
> 
> When a restaurant is busy, taking on extra staff is the usual response rather than dumbing down the menu and still charging the same price for a replacement of the premium item on the menu.....
Click to expand...

I don't know when you were last in a train kitchen, but having two chefs does not produce twice as much food, since there is extremely limited space & equipment. This is not a restaurant and if you have never been in a train kitchen, imagine trying to produce twice as much food on an airplane - if you can relate to that limited space, rather than a train.


----------



## Neil_M

haolerider said:


> I don't know when you were last in a train kitchen, but having two chefs does not produce twice as much food, since there is extremely limited space & equipment. This is not a restaurant and if you have never been in a train kitchen, imagine trying to produce twice as much food on an airplane - if you can relate to that limited space, rather than a train.


Today.

Fully aware of train catering equipment as well.

Anyway, I thought the SDS system was meant to control the amount of customers at anyone time?

I wouldn't think that 2 chefs would produce twice as much food, but it would surely allow a little extra capacity at busy times.


----------



## Upstate

haolerider said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *sigh*
> You realize that a diner, as in a diner you find in your down like a Denny's... is based out of the old railroad diners?
> 
> This isn't supposed to be 5-star....
> 
> 
> 
> Extra sigh.....
> 
> When a restaurant is busy, taking on extra staff is the usual response rather than dumbing down the menu and still charging the same price for a replacement of the premium item on the menu.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know when you were last in a train kitchen, but having two chefs does not produce twice as much food, since there is extremely limited space & equipment. This is not a restaurant and if you have never been in a train kitchen, imagine trying to produce twice as much food on an airplane - if you can relate to that limited space, rather than a train.
Click to expand...

That is still no excuse for replacing your premium product with mom's roast and keeping the same price.


----------



## Rob_C

Sounds like everyone can agree the pricing during the summer of the non-steak beef offering should come down. Maybe that is something we can all get behind and write Amtrak on, to shave a few dollars off the roast beef? Where would we all send letters to about this? Is there a special address for food comments?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Perhaps during the summer they can reduce the Pot Roast price and to make almost everyone want to eat on board, at least folks from this Forum, cater all Chicago trains with offerings from Giordano's  That would certainly be an improvement over that nasty pseudo-pizza they sling in the Lounge.


----------



## Bob Dylan

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Perhaps during the summer they can reduce the Pot Roast price and to make almost everyone want to eat on board, at least folks from this Forum, cater all Chicago trains with offerings from Giordano's  That would certainly be an improvement over that nasty pseudo-pizza they sling in the Lounge.


What do you think the so called Pizza is made with?(hint, its definitely not steak!!!! :lol: )Great idea about catering,Chicago can be the "pizza box express" like the OBS posted about the CONO being the "chicken bone express"!LOL


----------



## Trainmans daughter

Cardboard and Plastic=Amtrak Pizza!


----------



## amtrakwolverine

Trainmans daughter said:


> Cardboard and Plastic=Amtrak Pizza!


now i happen to like the pizza served onboard the trains. i also like the hot and ready's from Little Caesars guess i have no taste. i do not like the RR french toast though.


----------



## had8ley

Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *sigh*
> You realize that a diner, as in a diner you find in your down like a Denny's... is based out of the old railroad diners?
> 
> This isn't supposed to be 5-star....
> 
> 
> 
> Extra sigh.....
> 
> When a restaurant is busy, taking on extra staff is the usual response rather than dumbing down the menu and still charging the same price for a replacement of the premium item on the menu.....
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you here. Back in the dark ages (1950's) the Heritage diners, which are still rolling today, had FOUR cooks in the kitchen. The Superliners could probably accommodate 6 or more as the ENTIRE lower level of the car is kitchen area. No, the bean counters have won this battle; I fear the day when Amtrak leases the diners out to Wong's House of Ptomaine.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Six people in the diner? you're kidding, right?

Only if some use the ceiling--


----------



## had8ley

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Six people in the diner? you're kidding, right?
> Only if some use the ceiling--


Think of it this way; I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong~ if the upper deck on a Superliner can hold 72 pax eating why can't the lower level easily accommodate 6 cooks if, indeed, it is the same size ???


----------



## cpamtfan

had8ley said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six people in the diner? you're kidding, right?
> Only if some use the ceiling--
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it this way; I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong~ if the upper deck on a Superliner can hold 72 pax eating why can't the lower level easily accommodate 6 cooks if, indeed, it is the same size ???
Click to expand...


The lower deck is shorter than the upper deck. The space they are given isn't big enough to have six cooks in, maybe four cooks, two dishwashers.


----------



## cpamtfan

Not to get off of this GREAT topic  , whats wrong with the cafe pizzas? You should have seen the old ones, they were hard and tasteless. These ones today are soft and tasty!


----------



## had8ley

cpamtfan said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six people in the diner? you're kidding, right?
> Only if some use the ceiling--
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it this way; I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong~ if the upper deck on a Superliner can hold 72 pax eating why can't the lower level easily accommodate 6 cooks if, indeed, it is the same size ???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The lower deck is shorter than the upper deck. The space they are given isn't big enough to have six cooks in, maybe four cooks, two dishwashers.
Click to expand...

Good golly we're fiesty today...if you compare the room in the Heritage kitchens that once contained four cooks for years on end to the Superliner's spacious galley square foot to square foot you will probably be able to hold an AU Gathering in the Superliner galley.(It even has a toilet which does detract from the size BUT the upper deck has the serving area, dumb waiter and stairway which detracts from its size also ! ) BTW, I think 4 plus 2 equals six. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## cpamtfan

had8ley said:


> cpamtfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six people in the diner? you're kidding, right?
> Only if some use the ceiling--
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it this way; I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong~ if the upper deck on a Superliner can hold 72 pax eating why can't the lower level easily accommodate 6 cooks if, indeed, it is the same size ???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The lower deck is shorter than the upper deck. The space they are given isn't big enough to have six cooks in, maybe four cooks, two dishwashers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good golly we're fiesty today...if you compare the room in the Heritage kitchens that once contained four cooks for years on end to the Superliner's spacious galley square foot to square foot you will probably be able to hold an AU Gathering in the Superliner galley.(It even has a toilet which does detract from the size BUT the upper deck has the serving area, dumb waiter and stairway which detracts from its size also ! ) BTW, I think 4 plus 2 equals six. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

This whole thread is fiesty, so I guess it lets off a fiesty attitude :lol: .

I guess it could fit six or more, but I don't think we'll ever see that many persons working any Amtrak dining car kitchen in the "keeping costs down" era.


----------



## rrdude

cpamtfan said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpamtfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six people in the diner? you're kidding, right?
> Only if some use the ceiling--
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it this way; I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong~ if the upper deck on a Superliner can hold 72 pax eating why can't the lower level easily accommodate 6 cooks if, indeed, it is the same size ???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The lower deck is shorter than the upper deck. The space they are given isn't big enough to have six cooks in, maybe four cooks, two dishwashers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good golly we're fiesty today...if you compare the room in the Heritage kitchens that once contained four cooks for years on end to the Superliner's spacious galley square foot to square foot you will probably be able to hold an AU Gathering in the Superliner galley.(It even has a toilet which does detract from the size BUT the upper deck has the serving area, dumb waiter and stairway which detracts from its size also ! ) BTW, I think 4 plus 2 equals six. :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This whole thread is fiesty, so I guess it lets off a fiesty attitude :lol: .
> 
> I guess it could fit six or more, but I don't think we'll ever see that many persons working any Amtrak dining car kitchen in the "keeping costs down" era.
Click to expand...

I worked dozens of trips on the Chief out to LA in the Superliner diners, and the old High Levels, and the now called "Heritage Dinners" (when we still had to pick up Presto Logs in KC, and other stops)

OPINION: Superliner diner kitchens were a dream come true! Everything worked, ESPECIALLY the A.C., and there was enuff room to pitch a tent. We had AT LEAST six crew down there in the summer. Chefs, cooks, prep cooks, dishwashers. Only thing that really sucked was the damn dumb-waiters. Sooooooooooooooooooo much slower than the High Level conveyers. But, not as many accidents either! The High Levels had ample room, and were pretty well laid out, just old. Did I say that the A.C. worked?

The pre-Heritage diners were the PITS. I can't tell you how many services we ran with no power. Chemical lights in the monkey dishes for lights, no AC, loading doors and end doors propped open for air. But we COULD cook, cause we used Presto Logs. There was NO room in the kitchen either. Well, there was room, but only enuff to suck in your gut, and not move your elbows. I made more damn wedge salads at the "salad station" to last a lifetime. Ha, ha! That's where I first learned about the proverbial "Five second rule"........yuck.

It's all about manpower allotment. IF 'Trak wanted to, they could put out five star. I know, some of the chefs did, sadly, just for the crew though.


----------



## alanh

Looks pretty spacious to me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3023621596/


----------



## rrdude

alanh said:


> Looks pretty spacious to me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3023621596/


Oh there is PLENTY of room alright, remember, these kitchens were designed B4 SDS (simplified Dining Service) was ever thought of. I had the UNfortunate occasion to work a few trips in Superliner Diners after SDS (well, at least the second variation of it, I think there was also a "modified meal service"....... prior to that, not sure thou)

Point is, instead of a full kitchen staff, now it was Chef and one assistant. Granted, there was not much "cheffing" to be done, only mirco-zap and plate food. God it was awful. In fact that was the only time on Amtrak I liked being in the kitchen better than on the dining floor.

The dining car "staff" (if you can call an LSA and two attendants a "Staff") really took it on the chin from passengers. Most were reasonable, and knew it wasn't the employees fault, but some people, having not been on a train in years, and used to linen, china, flatware, and glass, were REALLY BITTER about paper plates, plastic cups, paper napkins, and plastic utensils.........


----------



## catblue

rrdude please-please-please tell me you were kidding with the "" I made more damn wedge salads at the "salad station" to last a lifetime. Ha, ha! That's where I first learned about the proverbial "Five second rule"........yuck."" statement. Ewwwwwwww!!!! :blink:

I had planned on ordering the Flat Iron Steak on the Empire Builder now I am wondering if I should?????? :unsure:


----------



## had8ley

alanh said:


> Looks pretty spacious to me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3023621596/


Thank you..and that's only one end of the car because the chef is standing next to the dumb waiter !


----------



## Guest

had8ley said:


> alanh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks pretty spacious to me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3023621596/
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you..and that's only one end of the car because the chef is standing next to the dumb waiter !
Click to expand...

Is that the one that made too many salads??LOL


----------



## rrdude

catblue said:


> rrdude please-please-please tell me you were kidding with the "" I made more damn wedge salads at the "salad station" to last a lifetime. Ha, ha! That's where I first learned about the proverbial "Five second rule"........yuck."" statement. Ewwwwwwww!!!! :blink:
> I had planned on ordering the Flat Iron Steak on the Empire Builder now I am wondering if I should?????? :unsure:


I can't "Say it ain't so". However, if "misery loves company" I've been involved in the restaurant industry for about 25 years, (owner, operator, but mostly sales to restaurants) and I have NEVER been in a kitchen 1 star, 2, star, 3,4,5 star that doesn't subscribe to that rule. OBVIOUSLY some are more strict than others. It's amazing what a quick rinse of water does. (or at least what they THINK it does......)

Go ahead, order, eat, and enjoy. Just keep your mind on the scenery outside the window, and trust that about 95% of the time, your meal is professionally prepared in a sanitary manner.............


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## D T Nelson

catblue said:


> I had planned on ordering the Flat Iron Steak on the Empire Builder now I am wondering if I should?????? :unsure:


Actually, the Empire Builder did not get the new braised flat iron steak (which some call pot roast) for the summer peak season. It still has a grilled steak, the "Butcher's Choice Cut Steak." When I rode the Empire Builder in June, I ate it, and it wasn't very tender, but it was a steak. Here is the current Empire Builder menu.


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## taking the cars

I ordered a steak while eating in the westbound EB dinning car on 25 November 2009 (day before Thanksgiving). It was one of the best steak's that I ever ate--probably in the top five. It was cooked to perfection!


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## jmbgeg

taking the cars said:


> I ordered a steak while eating in the westbound EB dinning car on 25 November 2009 (day before Thanksgiving). It was one of the best steak's that I ever ate--probably in the top five. It was cooked to perfection!


My top five: Spencers for Steaks (Hilton owned chain in Spokane and elsewhere; Morton's anywhere; Smith & Wolensky (any of their locations; Chicago Chop House; and Ruth's Chris (anywhere). While an Amtrak flat iron steak can be tasty, I don't see it in top five, top ten or top??? No insult intended to you for your ranking, and I am glad you enjoyed it.


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## taking the cars

jmbgeg said:


> taking the cars said:
> 
> 
> 
> I ordered a steak while eating in the westbound EB dinning car on 25 November 2009 (day before Thanksgiving). It was one of the best steak's that I ever ate--probably in the top five. It was cooked to perfection!
> 
> 
> 
> My top five: Spencers for Steaks (Hilton owned chain in Spokane and elsewhere; Morton's anywhere; Smith & Wolensky (any of their locations; Chicago Chop House; and Ruth's Chris (anywhere). While an Amtrak flat iron steak can be tasty, I don't see it in top five, top ten or top??? No insult intended to you for your ranking, and I am glad you enjoyed it.
Click to expand...

This was not the flat iron, but the "Butcher's Cut Special."


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## EB_OBS

taking the cars said:


> I ordered a steak while eating in the westbound EB dinning car on 25 November 2009 (day before Thanksgiving). It was one of the best steak's that I ever ate--probably in the top five. It was cooked to perfection!


The steak was changed on the Empire Builder back in October. On train #8 it's now a sirloin steak and train #7 again has a New York strip steak. So far I've tried them both several times and all have been excellent.


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## zoltan

Green Maned Lion said:


> I always order with the instructions: "Bloody rare." So far, I have gotten what I asked for and it has been delicious. I like my meat red and juicy in the middle.


You and I are in agreement there.


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## amtrakwolverine

i like meat tender and juicy also but i don't want the juices to be blood.


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## ALC Rail Writer

amtrakwolverine said:


> i like meat tender and juicy also but i don't want the juices to be blood.


That isn't blood.



> People are often put off that a rare steak contains lots of blood. This is a fallacy: a good quality steak shouldn’t bleed much (if at all) either.


http://www.drquincy.com/blog/why-you-shoul...our-steak-rare/

I cut steaks for summer jobs-- its tissues that have broken down and are colored red through oxygenation.


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## Green Maned Lion

I hope you don't butcher it, Micah.


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## ALC Rail Writer

It came to us in cryovaced sections, Jesse.


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## PaulM

On a recent GBB to DEN ride on the CZ, I had a "no name" steak. It was one of the best I've had in a while; almost as good as the long departed NY strips. I didn't know what to expect since the menu gave only a flowery description, not the name of the cut.


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## Ispolkom

I had the opportunity on a recent trip to have the flat iron both braised and broiled, as well as the New York strip. I thought that the flat iron was better braised (even though it was warmed in a microwave in the LSL lounge car) than broiled, but that the New York strip on the Empire Builder was better than either. Almost made up for missing the Buffaloaf once again.


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## cpamtfan

Ispolkom said:


> I had the opportunity on a recent trip to have the flat iron both braised and broiled, as well as the New York strip. I thought that the flat iron was better braised (even though it was warmed in a microwave in the LSL lounge car) than broiled, but that the New York strip on the Empire Builder was better than either. Almost made up for missing the Buffaloaf once again.



1st, the flat iron on the LSL is made in a steam table, not a microwave (plus they use a convection oven, not the microwave like everyone thinks).

2nd, the steak on the RB is a butchers choise cut. I'm not sure if it was actually a flat iron as the butcher's cut thing, but who really knows/

I also want to know, does the national and Crescent menu list the steak as a "butcher's cut" or flat iron? For some reason Amtrak hasn't put the new menus up on their website (which I will contact them AGAIN about), which is what they always do now.


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## Ispolkom

cpamtfan said:


> 1st, the flat iron on the LSL is made in a steam table, not a microwave (plus they use a convection oven, not the microwave like everyone thinks).2nd, the steak on the RB is a butchers choise cut. I'm not sure if it was actually a flat iron as the butcher's cut thing, but who really knows/
> 
> I also want to know, does the national and Crescent menu list the steak as a "butcher's cut" or flat iron? For some reason Amtrak hasn't put the new menus up on their website (which I will contact them AGAIN about), which is what they always do now.


You are mistaken.

The braised flat iron was the evening meal on the Boston section of the eastbound Lake Shore Limited on November 22. No dinette. No steam table. No convection oven. Those all go to New York. Just the lounge car and an attendant who complained about how hot the microwave was running. Heck, he didn't have any plates and so we were served the dish in the microwavable container. The potatoes were pretty cold, and the meat itself was unevenly heated, so I think I'll continue thinking that the attendant knew what he was talking about when he said that the dishes were microwaved.

Second, on #7 on December 4 the dinner special was... wait for it... New York strip steak. Maybe they were lying, but that's what Ken said and it sure looked like a New York strip to me. This was in addition to the regular "Butcher's Choice" steak, which has always looked like a top sirloin cut to me. Certainly the shape and marbling are not what I'd expect from a flat iron cut. I still would have liked to have tried the buffaloaf, but there you have it.

Web site menus are all fine and dandy, but I'm going to my own eyes, ears, and taste first. YMMV, of course.

I don't remember what the beef offering was on the Crescent. Mrs. Ispolkom had the crab cakes, while Wayman and I had the turkey dinner special.


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## cpamtfan

I thought the LSL Boston section served a cold "beef" plate, not a flat iron piece of meat. Strange that they serve a NYS as the special but hey, it had to be better than the old chicken fried steak special from a few years ago  ! The menus on my Amtrak.com are the old summer ones, which are a little out of date compared to the current fall menus.


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