# Government shutdown possible



## Tracktwentynine (Feb 18, 2011)

If an agreement between Republicans and Democrats cannot be agreed upon by March 4, we could face another government shutdown. Politico now reports that this may be very likely to happen.

My question is, will Amtrak be affected? Does anyone remember if it shutdown in 1995 when the federal government was closed?

I'm actually supposed to be traveling on Amtrak on March 4. I'd hate to get stuck.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 18, 2011)

For those of us young enough not to remember 1995 as anything but first grade, what happened back then?


----------



## caravanman (Feb 18, 2011)

Hi,

I have no idea how things work in your part of the world, but over here in Europe, Belgium has been without a government for 249 days!

"What would be a humiliation for many turned into a party for Belgium on Thursday as the country's citizens marked 249 days without a government, a figure that they are treating as a world record in political indecision. A bunch of youngsters took off their clothes to mark their protest."

Services are normal in government free Belgium...

Ed


----------



## guest (Feb 18, 2011)

Because Amtrak is, officially, a private corporation, the answer to your question is a definitive NO; Amtrak would not shut down if the government does (although as I recall from 16 years ago, not much else shut down, either).


----------



## Ryan (Feb 18, 2011)

Since Amtrak is notionally a private company (albeit owned by the DoT), I would expect service to continue.

My wife (who works at the Capitol Visitor Center) was told that if the government shut down the CVC would be closed and they would not receive a paycheck for the duration of the shutdown. I was in 10th grade in '95, so I don't remember a lot of the details, but rush hour will be a thing of the past here in DC for the duration!


----------



## Tracktwentynine (Feb 18, 2011)

For those of you who don't remember the 1995-1996 government shutdown, Wikipedia has a brief overview.

All non-essential federal government employees were sent home on furlough. National Parks were one of the notable things closed. The Smithsonian closed its doors as well.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Feb 18, 2011)

Seeing how badly the previous shut down harmed Gingrich while helping Clinton, I'm clueless as to why the the GOP are so confident history won't simply repeat itself again. I'm not saying I can see the future, I'm just saying I'd be a lot more cautious about tempting fate again this soon after the last disaster.


----------



## Tumbleweed (Feb 18, 2011)

daxomni said:


> Seeing how badly the previous shut down harmed Gingrich while helping Clinton, I'm clueless as to why the the GOP are so confident history won't simply repeat itself again. I'm not saying I can see the future, I'm just saying I'd be a lot more cautious about tempting fate again this soon after the last disaster.


Yup.....people don't forget it when you draw a line in the sand and refuse to budge.....


----------



## TransitGeek (Feb 18, 2011)

daxomni said:


> Seeing how badly the previous shut down harmed Gingrich while helping Clinton, I'm clueless as to why the the GOP are so confident history won't simply repeat itself again. I'm not saying I can see the future, I'm just saying I'd be a lot more cautious about tempting fate again this soon after the last disaster.


The obvious answer is that they think they can force meaningful concessions from Obama and the Democrats. Based on previous situations, such as the unemployment/Bush tax cut situation a few months ago, they may well be right.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie (Feb 18, 2011)

Shutting down the Federal government (and from what I read, some States too), is not a good thing. However, increasing the National Debt is not a good thing either, and IMHO, the worse evil.

Yea, maybe all those leased lux cars and SUV's driven by most Congressmen, will get repro'ed when the monthly payments stop. And, gasp, they might have to drive their own cars to work. 

As to Amtrak, operations should continue, but capital expenses might get stopped for the duration.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 18, 2011)

This is the price we pay for a two party system, if the two can't agree they just shut things down. It would be nice to have a parliamentary system where a third party could slap the other two and force a coalition.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie (Feb 18, 2011)

BTW, from CNN...



> On Thursday, lawmakers voted on amendments to protect $450 million slated for Amtrak train service, ...


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Feb 18, 2011)

The government won't shut down. The two moronic parties will sit and yell at each other and scream and posture. And then around 11:30 PM March 3rd, they'll pass a resolution.


----------



## jis (Feb 18, 2011)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> As to Amtrak, operations should continue, but capital expenses might get stopped for the duration.


Why would work being funded by capital that has already been disbursed to Amtrak be affected? Only new capital will not get disbursed.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 18, 2011)

The FRA would close for business, no?


----------



## Train2104 (Feb 18, 2011)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The FRA would close for business, no?


Yes.


----------



## Dovecote (Feb 18, 2011)

Tracktwentynine said:


> For those of you who don't remember the 1995-1996 government shutdown, Wikipedia has a brief overview.
> 
> All non-essential federal government employees were sent home on furlough. National Parks were one of the notable things closed. The Smithsonian closed its doors as well.


Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I was a U.S. government employee from 1977-2008 with the Department of Agriculture and was involved in three separate government shutdowns in 1981, 1984, and 1986. Each of these shutdowns were short in duration. We were sent home during the work day but returned the following day when emergency spending bills were inacted.

The government shutdown in 1995 did not send all non-essential government employees home on furlough however. Although being classified as non-essential government employees, Agriculture Department employees were not affected as their appropriation bill for the fiscal year had been previously approved. We worked throughout this 1995 shutdown.  I would suspect that any government agency that has their appropriation bill passed for the fiscal year would not be affected.


----------



## Amtrak Employee (Feb 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Since Amtrak is notionally a private company (albeit owned by the DoT), I would expect service to continue.
> 
> My wife (who works at the Capitol Visitor Center) was told that if the government shut down the CVC would be closed and they would not receive a paycheck for the duration of the shutdown. I was in 10th grade in '95, so I don't remember a lot of the details, but rush hour will be a thing of the past here in DC for the duration!


(sigh) Amtrak is NOT - repeat NOT - owned by the Federal Government, DOT or otherwise. It is a private corporation, whose shareholders INCLUDE but are not limited to: the Feds, the Freight railroads, and some large multinational organizations. It is private stock, but stock nonetheless. It is NOT a national rail system. Would that it were...


----------



## bretton88 (Feb 18, 2011)

Now, granted, that stock is considered to be worthless, but technically Amtrak is privately owned.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 18, 2011)

Amtrak Employee said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Since Amtrak is notionally a private company (albeit owned by the DoT), I would expect service to continue.
> ...


Actually, you are right but for the wrong reasons. No it is not owned by the Fed directly, but all preferred shares or stock are owned by the US Congress. Amtrak is not a publically traded company and no individual or business may invest in Amtrak stock. The '71 agreement codified this very strictly.

The freight railroads are the least likely to ever invest in Amtrak again. Owning Amtrak stock is akin to owing money, it's not only not worth the paper its printed on it requires a subsidy because it is run at a loss. The paper its printed on is a bill, owning Amtrak is owning debt that will not likely return.

It is a private company who's sole owner is the US Congress, it is operated as both an independent company and political football. It isn't wholly one way or the other. They operate in the grey area that Greyhound, NPR, Planned Parenthood, PBS, and all other "public owned businesses".


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 18, 2011)

bretton88 said:


> Now, granted, that stock is considered to be worthless, but technically Amtrak is privately owned.



Privately owned... Exclusively owned.... By the US Congress. The stock isn't just worthless, it is an annual bill to it's sole investor. Since it will always be a loss, it can never be privately owned unless a bunch of rich people wanted to have the worlds largest model railroad.


----------



## Eric S (Feb 18, 2011)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> It is a private company who's sole owner is the US Congress, it is operated as both an independent company and political football. It isn't wholly one way or the other. They operate in the grey area that Greyhound, NPR, Planned Parenthood, PBS, and all other "public owned businesses".


I don't think Greyhound belongs in that category, though. It is a private company, owned by a UK-based company.


----------



## GlobalistPotato (Feb 18, 2011)

Is it odd if I say that I look forward to the idea of the government shutting down for a long period of time (oh, lets say, until August)?

It's not like our society would decay any faster without a shutdown.

Although I'm not %100 sure what a long term shutdown would mean.

But I don't think the sky would fall, or whatever some statist says...


----------



## amtrakwolverine (Feb 18, 2011)

Amtrak continued to run during the last shut down right? Why should this be any different. To bad airlines won't shut down though :giggle:


----------



## daveyb99 (Feb 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> My wife (who works at the Capitol Visitor Center) was told that if the government shut down the CVC would be closed and they would not receive a paycheck for the duration of the shutdown ...


Yep. All Non-Essentials stay home without pay. Essential Personnel, like I, do go to work and get paid.

(Now here is the bad part: the non-essentials will get paid. essential get nothing extra. so it is like getting extra days off with pay for all the non-essentials. what a joke)


----------



## Ryan (Feb 19, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The government won't shut down. The two moronic parties will sit and yell at each other and scream and posture. And then around 11:30 PM March 3rd, they'll pass a resolution.


I'd make a friendly wager with you on that one, I don't think that either side is going to blink on this one.



Train2104 said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > The FRA would close for business, no?
> ...


I would presume that the functions that are considered "essential" would continue on so that the railroads could keep moving.



daveyb99 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > My wife (who works at the Capitol Visitor Center) was told that if the government shut down the CVC would be closed and they would not receive a paycheck for the duration of the shutdown ...
> ...


Bad for you, good for us!  She said that they were told that they "may" get paid for the lost time after the fact, but no guarantees that it would happen or when they would get around to processing it if it did.


----------



## afigg (Feb 19, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Amtrak continued to run during the last shut down right? Why should this be any different. To bad airlines won't shut down though


Amtrak operates on either tracks they own, owned by the state / local transit agency for the NEC and some other corridors or tracks owned by private freight companies. Same for all for the dispatch and control operations. Amtrak provides it's own security operation with the Amtrak police, although at a few major stations such as NYP, there is additional security presence provided by local police or TSA. No reason for Amtrak to stop running for a short term federal shutdown.

Airline operations, however, are dependent on the federally operated Air Traffic Control, TSA and probably other parts of the Home Security Department and Customs for international flights. These presumably all would be covered as Essential Personnel, even though all essential personnel are also unfunded if Congress doesn't pass an authorization bill or continuing resolution.

I think odds are good that we will have a short term government shutdown. The Republican House leadership has not shown that it can effectively control the newly elected block of 50 or 60 idealogical Tea partiers who are new to the political process. The House Democrats are not going to be inclined to help the Republican leadership out, if that means draconian budgets cuts out of a relatively small slice of the federal budget. Short term gridlock is likely.


----------



## daveyb99 (Feb 19, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Bad for you, good for us!  She said that they were told that they "may" get paid for the lost time after the fact, but no guarantees that it would happen or when they would get around to processing it if it did.


Really? Why lump all that hate on the Federal Employee because of a partisan Legislative disagreement. The ones staying home without pay are not at fault.

(And it is just because they are not at fault that they will get back-pay for those days. Always have, always will).


----------



## saxman (Feb 19, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Amtrak continued to run during the last shut down right? Why should this be any different. To bad airlines won't shut down though :giggle:


I'd rather not the airlines shut down. Some of us rely on them, a lot.


----------



## Ryan (Feb 19, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Bad for you, good for us!  She said that they were told that they "may" get paid for the lost time after the fact, but no guarantees that it would happen or when they would get around to processing it if it did.
> ...


I don't even know what "hate" you're talking about.


----------



## jis (Feb 19, 2011)

saxman said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak continued to run during the last shut down right? Why should this be any different. To bad airlines won't shut down though :giggle:
> ...


Some of us even way more than we rely on Amtrak actually, not that we would want Amtrak to shut down either.


----------



## The Davy Crockett (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm booked on the Silver Star on March 7, so out of curiosity I called customer service to see what they said about Amtrak not running if the Fed Gov shuts down on or around March 4. The woman I spoke to had no idea, so she put me on hold to ask her supervisor. When she came back she told me to call back next week for an answer. :blink:

Now I do think (and hope) my train will be running, but I thought it was a curious way for customer service to handle the question. It could be that the prospect of shutting down has been a non-issue for Amtrak employees. But it also made me wonder if they are afraid folks are going to cancel with Amtrak and fly instead. In any case, their answer did not exactly inspire confidence that I'll get to my destination either.


----------



## Ryan (Feb 24, 2011)

Clueless CSR. Amtrak will run.


----------



## fairviewroad (Feb 24, 2011)

Will border crossings be affected? After all, those customs agents are federal employees. It's hard to imagine

our borders being closed but it's much easier to imagine the Amtrak-related crossing points to be shut down.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 24, 2011)

I would guess customs are considered 'required' but I'm not sure, it would mean closing our borders.


----------



## The Davy Crockett (Feb 24, 2011)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I would guess customs are considered 'required' but I'm not sure, it would mean closing our borders.


I heard that a lot of Borders are closing. :mellow:

Oh wait, I'm thinking of Borders Books! hboy:

In all seriousness, I'm sure INS and Customs agents are considered essential personnel and will be working throughout any shutdown.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 24, 2011)

Wait, is it borders or boarders?


----------



## PerRock (Feb 24, 2011)

Eric S said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > It is a private company who's sole owner is the US Congress, it is operated as both an independent company and political football. It isn't wholly one way or the other. They operate in the grey area that Greyhound, NPR, Planned Parenthood, PBS, and all other "public owned businesses".
> ...


Greyhound is owned by the British (ok Scottish) FirstGroup who primarily operate various public transportation systems across the globe. It is (and has been) a fully private corporation. FG 'merged' all the regional Greyhound services into just Greyhound, and started up two Discount Services under the Greyhound name. Greyhound Canada is also owned by FG, as well as the new Greyhound UK. Greyhound Australia is owned by Chapman Group and ANZ.



It would be interesting to see what would happen to Amtrak if FirstGroup got their hands on it (or one other the other big passenger train corporations from across the seas).



peter


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha (Feb 24, 2011)

fairviewroad said:


> Will border crossings be affected? After all, those customs agents are federal employees. It's hard to imagine
> 
> our borders being closed but it's much easier to imagine the Amtrak-related crossing points to be shut down.


God I hope not, I have trip up to Canada to ride the Canadian in March.


----------



## George Harris (Feb 24, 2011)

If Obamba has any functional brain cells, he will do just what Clinton did. Shut down / close selection government offices and functions for the purpose of achieving maximum public aggravation and inconvenience. Anyone in or out of government that does not think the choice is Obamba's needs a lesson in the basic separation of powers.

The Congress may pass or not pass laws, but the Executive Branch, meaning that part run by the president does the spending. If the choice is a congressional mandated shutdown, if the Congress does not specifically list which agencies are funded and defunded, they are sinking their own boat.

A classic example: (don't remember the exact date) Theodore Rooseveldt decided to send a US Navy fleet around the world. When Congress told him they would not fund it, he told them, I already have enough to get it half way around the world. You figure out how to get it back. Congress caved. At that time and place they felt the national embarrassment of leaving a fleet stranded was more important than making a power play.

Unless those in congress are totally ignorant of history, they will not let the threat of a shut down go through. It will backfire on them.


----------



## daveyb99 (Feb 25, 2011)

GlobalistPotato said:


> Is it odd if I say that I look forward to the idea of the government shutting down for a long period of time (oh, lets say, until August)?
> 
> It's not like our society would decay any faster without a shutdown.
> 
> Although I'm not %100 sure what a long term shutdown would mean.


Well, everything short of Law Enforcement, ATC, Defense would close. Like: National Parks, Road Repairs/Construction (until contracts expire), Office Work, Social Security (no new enrollments), Medicare (no doctors getting paid), possibly Courts, non-Defense activities (stuff retirees would access), maybe the VA, IRS (no processing of tax returns) ... well I could go on, but you get the picture.

Sure, it sounds great to 'shut it down', but in reality, lots of daily activities we access would end.

As a note: the ACTUAL cost of government is really about 10-15% of the budget, or about ~$450 Billion/YR.

The New York Times did a great graphic on the FY2011 and FY2010 Budget.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/01/us/budget.html


----------



## Ryan (Feb 25, 2011)

George Harris said:


> Anyone in or out of government that does not think the choice is Obamba's needs a lesson in the basic separation of powers.


Not really. If the Republican-led House and the Democratic-led Senate can't get together and pass a bill that's identical, there won't be anything for Obama to sign or not sign. Certainly he can try to influence the lawmakers into passing a bill that they can agree on and he can sign, but the ball is squarely in the Legislative Branch's court.

I do agree that a shutdown (like in '95/'96) will benefit the Democrats more than the Republicans. A shutdown would end up costing more money in the long run as well, so it's in the nation's best interest to get another CRA (or FY2011 budget) signed ASAP.

Also, it's "Obama", not "Obamba".


----------



## Train2104 (Feb 25, 2011)

Is the shutdown still on for March 4?


----------



## Tracktwentynine (Feb 25, 2011)

Train2104 said:


> Is the shutdown still on for March 4?


Congress has not adopted a continuing resolution yet, so the government could still shut down on March 4. But it is still possible that Congress will work something out. However, with every day that passes, the chances of averting a shutdown grow slimmer. I think the odds favor at least a short-term shutdown.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Feb 25, 2011)

:help: If nothing else this thread should serve as proof that most Americans don't have a clue how the Government works!  Cant believe that Amtrak fans still don't know that Amtrak employees are NOT Government employees! And what's happening in the various States ( ie Wisconson,Ohio,Florida etc.) as the Tea-Party/Repub Cowards Slash and Burn stooges try to dismantle the Best System on earth also shows that the Majority that didnt bother to Vote last time are finally waking up and wondering what's going on???  Wait until NO Government Checks go out to these NO Nothings(intentional spelling!), perhaps it will actually make them realize that doing the Heavy Lifting for the Rich Greedheads and the Corporations isn't in their interest! 

Disclaimer: I am a retired Government employee and receive TWO Government Checks plus am on Socialized Medicine, Medicare!!!!


----------



## Tracktwentynine (Feb 25, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> :help: If nothing else this thread should serve as proof that most Americans don't have a clue how the Government works!  Cant believe that Amtrak fans still don't know that Amtrak employees are NOT Government employees! And what's going on in the various States as the Tea-Party Slash and Burn idiots try to dismantle the best system on earth also shows that the majority that didnt bother to vote last time are finally waking up and wondering what's going on???  Wait until NO Government checks go out to these no nothings, perhaps it will actually make them realize that doing the heavy lifting for the Rich Greedheads and the corporations isn't in their interest!


Since I started this thread, I presume your reply is directed at least partially at me.

Trust me. I know how government works. I have 2 degrees in how government works, in fact. I also know that Amtrak employees are not government employees.

However, Amtrak does get a significant portion of its subsidy from the federal government, and since I have travel planned for March 4, I thought it would be prudent to ask if anyone remembered what happened the last time. Unlike many of the people on this forum, I'm not old enough to have ridden the Panama Limited or the Coast Daylight. In fact, the last time the government shut down, I was 10. And on my school trip to Washington during the shutdown, the one thing that I remember clearly was everything, _everything_ being closed.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Feb 25, 2011)

:hi: No, I wasnt refering to you, my comments are directed to those that don't have a clue about how the Government and our so called Free Enterprise System actually work! Usually dont try to use Shakespeare in my posts but to paraphrase: "Let the T-Pubs shut down the Government though the Heavens Fall!" If it happens (compromise is how our system has always worked , our Founding Fathers set it up that way, you can look it up!), the anti-Government types who actually ARE the Government!  will pay the price in the 2012 Elections! First prediction for 2012. :excl: :excl: :excl:


----------



## AlanB (Feb 25, 2011)

Tracktwentynine said:


> However, Amtrak does get a significant portion of its subsidy from the federal government, and since I have travel planned for March 4, I thought it would be prudent to ask if anyone remembered what happened the last time. Unlike many of the people on this forum, I'm not old enough to have ridden the Panama Limited or the Coast Daylight. In fact, the last time the government shut down, I was 10. And on my school trip to Washington during the shutdown, the one thing that I remember clearly was everything, _everything_ being closed.


A prolonged government shutdown would eventually impact Amtrak, as they wouldn't get all the funding that they need from the Fed. But my guess is that currently Amtrak could probably survive at least 2 to 3 months without any operational problems and they might even be able to stretch that to 6 months by holding back on loan payments, pension contributions, capital work, etc.

So bottom line is that your trip is safe. Those with plans for the summer and to the Gathering in the fall could be in trouble with a prolonged shutdown. Of course if the Fed is shut down so long as to reach the summer without an agreement, we're all going to have much bigger problems to worry about than whether or not Amtrak is still running.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Feb 25, 2011)

Amtrak would not shut down, I don't think, for at least six months, I would imagine. I think Amtrak could run the major portions of its system, primarily the NEC, for at least a year and a half with little or no funding, if they set themselves up to do so. Furthermore, the state owned services, such as North Carolina's Piedmont, the Cascades, and especially California's services wouldn't be impacted at all. If this government shutdown affects Amtrak heavily, it will, as Alan pointed out, be the least of our problems.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 25, 2011)

If the Govt is shut down for six months, the least of our worries will be Amtrak..


----------



## George Harris (Feb 25, 2011)

Ryan said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone in or out of government that does not think the choice is Obamba's needs a lesson in the basic separation of powers.
> ...


My point was that if the government is not funded so that the pot of money to continue is not there, then it is the executive branch that decides what to keep going and what to shut down. It had nothing to do with signing of the bill. That is why I made the specific example of TR's move. It is a lot easier for the President to get congress painted into a corner than the other way around.


----------



## GlobalistPotato (Feb 25, 2011)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> If the Govt is shut down for six months, the least of our worries will be Amtrak..


Well, what else is going to happen if the government is shut down for 6 months?

That's like to the end of August.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 26, 2011)

GlobalistPotato said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > If the Govt is shut down for six months, the least of our worries will be Amtrak..
> ...


Think about it for six months... No mail, no welfare or unemployment payments, no tax refunds or audits. No Pell Grant or Stafford loans can be processed for students, and payments cannot be credited. Flights will be at a minimum, Medicare medicaid and SSD/I pay,nets will be backed up for weeks. The US credit rating drops to AAA meaning we couldn't get more money if we needed it. The list goes on.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 26, 2011)

When it happened in 94 we were in much better economic shape, and it cost the taxpayers $400 million to get things running again. So much for fiscal responsibility.


----------



## Tracktwentynine (Apr 6, 2011)

Well, it appears that the government will actually shut down this time.

I'm bringing this thread back to the fore because I have new information. At the Mid-Atlantic NARP meeting at Union Station back in March, Amtrak's VP (Government Affairs) Joseph McHugh spoke. One of the questions was about the possibility of a government shutdown. He replied that Amtrak could survive for a while, but that without the continuing appropriations process, the railroad would eventually run out of cash.

This seems to me to be mirrored by the situation that the DC government faces. DC collects its own taxes and runs its own local government. However, because of the unique constitutional situation of the city, all DC tax revenue are reappropriated by Congress. Therefore, if the federal government shuts down, DC's local government will have to do so, also.

Hopefully the shutdown can be averted, or if not, will be short. And hopefully Amtrak won't be affected after all.


----------



## Ryan (Apr 6, 2011)

Tracktwentynine said:


> Hopefully the shutdown can be averted, or if not, will be short. And hopefully Amtrak won't be affected after all.


Seconded. According to my wife and .gov friends the water cooler talk is "It's gonna happen", but the thinking is that it'll be short and someone will cave.
Not looking forward to trying to live on 1 paycheck if it isn't short.


----------



## Tracktwentynine (Apr 6, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Not looking forward to trying to live on 1 paycheck if it isn't short.


Same here.


----------



## amamba (Apr 6, 2011)

My heart goes out to all government employees if there is a shutdown. Folks need those paychecks to survive!


----------



## Bob Dylan (Apr 6, 2011)

:help: Last time the "So Called" Fiscal Saviours in the TPub Party shut down the Govt. it cost Mr. Newt Gingrich the Speakership and the T-Pubs Control of Congress! Most Americans wouldnt want to go to work for Free which is what will happen to our Soldiers/Sailors, All so called Key Govt. Employees etc. but with the States Broke, the Economy on its knees and Tens of Millions of Americans Depending on Federal $$$ Flowing out of Washington (including the Rich and Corporations!) the Chickens will come home to Roost So to Speak when it happens! Be Careful What you Ask for, You might Just get it!! :excl: :excl: :excl:

BTW-Congress is Exempt :angry2: , they will still be Paid all Salary, Perks and Expenses, they are the closest thing we have to Royalty in this Country! Hope the LD Trains dont get Stranded in Places like Sanderson, Texas, Grits, Mississippi and Rhode Island! :giggle:  

The rest of us need to throw all these Clowns out of office and take back the government, it belonmgs to us, not Corporations and the Rich! (Allegedly!)


----------



## dlagrua (Apr 6, 2011)

If a government shutdown occurs it will be largely symbolic. It may happnen for a few days but it will shortly pass. It will be done to illustate that unless something is done to curtail runaway spending, the USA will continue on the fast track to insolvency. Something needs to be done to eliminate government waste, earmarks and other things that do not serve the public interest. Amtrak should not be affected short term as they still have a revenue stream in ticket sales


----------



## BLOND37 (Apr 6, 2011)

i would assume amtrak would be open for biz.. we will still get mail - yes we will - cuz the post office is "self sufficient" (or something like that!)


----------



## BobWeaver (Apr 6, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> If a government shutdown occurs it will be largely symbolic. It may happnen for a few days but it will shortly pass. It will be done to illustate that unless something is done to curtail runaway spending, the USA will continue on the fast track to insolvency. Something needs to be done to eliminate government waste, earmarks and other things that do not serve the public interest. Amtrak should not be affected short term as they still have a revenue stream in ticket sales


While the actual shutdown may represent greater political problems among other issues, there is absolutely nothing symbolic about the furloughing of non-essential federal employees and the suspension of non-essential government services, no matter how brief the length of time turns out to be.


----------



## amtrakwolverine (Apr 6, 2011)

Amtrak will run. It ran during the last shutdown in 95-96 or around there.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 6, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> If a government shutdown occurs it will be largely symbolic. It may happnen for a few days but it will shortly pass. It will be done to illustate that unless something is done to curtail runaway spending, the USA will continue on the fast track to insolvency. Something needs to be done to eliminate government waste, earmarks and other things that do not serve the public interest. Amtrak should not be affected short term as they still have a revenue stream in ticket sales


Or... It could be symbolic of the disfunction of Congress. It has nothing to do with debt, both sides could choose to keep running the Government on a stop gap measure if they wanted to--

Or we can do what Eric Cantor wants to do, burn the Constitution and whine about how he's right and he never gets his way.


----------



## TraneMan (Apr 6, 2011)

Just hope it done before July! Hate to go out to Montana and can't go to the park!


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Apr 6, 2011)

Run away spending is not a problem. It is... a symptom. It is a symptom of the kind of stupid, pay-to-play, corrupt, small interest serving monolith our government has become. We are currently spending six tons of money on non-essential military items, such as acquisition of defense equipment clearly designed to protect us from the Soviet Union.

Clearly, we need not defend ourselves from a military power that ceased to exist 20 years ago. The only other enemy that the kind of large scale weapons we are acquiring would be useful against is China, who seems quite content taking us over economically, and seems disinterested in using such crude methods of dominance. The weapons we are trying to acquire are not needed, as such military battles are a thing of the past.

Next, taxes in this country are too damned low. Our citizens want services, and most governments are capable of providing these same services without going bankrupt. But our citizens don't wish to pay for them. Well, if I go to the supermarket and acquire a loaf of bread, I have to pay money. I don't want to, but my want on this issue is a moot point. I have to pay, want or no want. Our taxes must be raised. Period, end of discussion.

We have a problem. We have a tool box to solve it, but the idiots we have in office took the two most powerful tools in it (major cuts to things we don't presently need, and raising taxes) and summarily dismissed them. Then they decided to (both sides) make a show about cutting or stopping cuts to tiny, unimportant budgetary, and practically useful things. Much like the DHS, it is more about putting on a show, fooling the public into thinking motion is accomplishment.


----------



## gregoryla (Apr 6, 2011)

There have been several postings, with conflicting information, about who owns Amtrak. This is the answer as set forth in notes 5 and 10 to Amtrak's audited 2009 financial statements (which can be found on Amtrak's website): The preferred stock of Amtrak is owned by the United States Secretary of Transportation for the benefit of the United States Government. The common stock, which is essentially worthless, is owned by four shareholders, successors to railroads that transferred their passenger rail operations to Amtrak. The largest common shareholder, owning 55% of the common stock, is American Premier Underwriters, formerly known as Penn Central.


----------



## BobWeaver (Apr 6, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Run away spending is not a problem. It is... a symptom.


 Symptoms are oftentimes the actual problem. You don't go to the doctor to cure strep, you go to the doctor to cure throat pain. Same principle applies. Runaway spending is dangerous, and is a serious problem.



Green Maned Lion said:


> We are currently spending six tons of money on non-essential military items, such as acquisition of defense equipment clearly designed to protect us from the Soviet Union.
> Clearly, we need not defend ourselves from a military power that ceased to exist 20 years ago. The only other enemy that the kind of large scale weapons we are acquiring would be useful against is China, who seems quite content taking us over economically, and seems disinterested in using such crude methods of dominance. The weapons we are trying to acquire are not needed, as such military battles are a thing of the past.


Please, enlighten us all as to what current defense programs are designed against a 20-30 year old threat that has since gone by the wayside.

Let's let the DoD figure out what's essential and non-essential, and how best to protect our country and its interests. Some things are best kept internal. Nothing against you, but I'm pretty sure they know how to do their job quite well, and know more about what they're doing and why than you, or any of us, ever will.


----------



## Ryan (Apr 6, 2011)

BobWeaver said:


> Let's let the DoD figure out what's essential and non-essential, and how best to protect our country and its interests. Nothing against you, but I'm pretty sure they know how to do their job quite well, and know more about what they're doing and why than you, or any of us ever will.


As a former Naval Officer and current defense contractor, GML hit the nail on the head. The amount of money that I, personally, have seen the DoD is absolutely mind boggling. I spent 3 years working on the now cancelled CG(X) program and the amount of money that was spent for absolutely no return whatsoever is positively obscene.
I recommend that you start thinking for yourself rather than put your blind faith in authority to have your best interests at mind. Our current levels of spending would be sustainable forever with some very minor tweaks to the tax code.

But instead we have a tax system where Warren Buffet pays a smaller income tax than his secretary and multibillion dollar corporations like GE pay no tax whatsoever.

Bonus edit:



BobWeaver said:


> You don't go to the doctor to cure strep, you go to the doctor to cure throat pain.


You can't even get your medical analogies right. You absolutely go to the doctor to cure strep. Antibiotics do nothing to alleviate your pain, but kill off the strep allowing your body to feel better. My son and I even had strep this winter with little to no throat pain at all.


----------



## GG-1 (Apr 6, 2011)

Aloha

This topic is straying from Amtrak issues, please remember this is the Amtrak section.

Mahalo


----------



## BobWeaver (Apr 6, 2011)

Ryan said:


> As a former Naval Officer and current defense contractor, GML hit the nail on the head. The amount of money that I, personally, have seen the DoD is absolutely mind boggling. I spent 3 years working on the now cancelled CG(X) program and the amount of money that was spent for absolutely no return whatsoever is positively obscene.


It is unfortunate that defense programs often times live and die by shifts due to modernization and changes in threats, which, in addition to funding concerns, was what brought down the Next Gen Cruiser program. Changes in threats are hard to predict, especially years down the road. As a former DOE employee, I am more than familiar with changes in mission resulting from changes in threat. Savannah River Site, DOE's nuclear processing facility in SC, built its K Cooling Tower to support new K reactor operations, which was slated to come back online in order to produce tritium for defense purposes. When the Cold War ended, there was no longer a need for nuclear material production, and subsequently there was no longer a need for the reactor restart project to continue. The cooling tower and reactor operated for a very short amount of time, after which the reactor was permanently shut down. K cooling tower was demolished last summer in glorious fashion, having stood lifeless for almost 2 decades. Some see it as a waste of taxpayer dollars because of its cost and the fact that it was never used. The media was also glad to point this out, too. But, coming from the inside, I know there was a very real reason for its construction, and that there was no way to foresee the events in the Soviet Union 3-5 years in the future.



Ryan said:


> You can't even get your medical analogies right. You absolutely go to the doctor to cure strep. Antibiotics do nothing to alleviate your pain, but kill off the strep allowing your body to feel better. My son and I even had strep this winter with little to no throat pain at all.


If you really want to turn this Amtrak thread into a medical debate, we can. Unless you have a medical degree too, you yourself have no way of knowing what your sore throat is caused by without performing a throat culture. It very well could be strep, or it could be something else, like an adenovirus infection, or viral pharyngitis, which you'll be happy/sad to hear is the most common cause of a sore throat. 

PS: nice forum spam. Seriously?


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 7, 2011)

When I go to the doctor I tell him what symptoms I have and he makes a diagnosis. He doesn't treat the symptoms unless I ask him to, and only then will he do so in conjunction with a cure. When I had a bad ear ache he gave me a script for an antibiotic to cure the ear infection and told me to buy ear drops to soothe the pain if I wanted to.

Point is, your analogy is totally wrong. You can admit that it is without sacrificing your position on your other contentions. In any event you responded to being called out but defending an obvious error... That doesn't help your argument.

As for Amtrak, I thought this was settled. Amtrak ran during the back-to-back shutdowns in 95-96 under Clinton, many people actually forget the shutdown happened TWICE within a few months. The world didn't end, it cost the government money and failed to solve our problems. I don't see why it's worth debating it for Amtraks sake or anybody else's for that matter, uless it shuts down for an extended period of time it is doubtful it will do anything but stall our economic growth, which is very fragile.

The trains still run, the only way they would stop running is if the shutdown lasted many many months, when Amtrak gets up for FY2012 funding.

Remember Amtrak employees are NOT federal employees. Their pay comes partially from government subsidy, yes, but the majority comes from the farebox. Tha means if people are still riding trains, the money will continue. Additionally Amtrak as a corporation is free to seek private loans to subsidize it further in case Uncle Sam shows them an empty wallet.

IF and only IF the shutdown lasted long enough to affect Amtrak... Amtrak would be the least of our worries at that point.


----------



## BobWeaver (Apr 7, 2011)

Wow folks. :giggle: All I was saying is that one initially goes to the doctor to address symptoms, because most times one doesn't know the underlying reason behind a symptom. A cure naturally follows a diagnosis. In the age of WebMD and such, people like to think they can self-diagnose and go to the doctor and tell him or her, "I have ____. Please cure____.", only to be diagnosed with something completely different. Ryan, this was not meant to start an argument on medicine and doctor visit procedures. The reference to viral pharyngitis was a real one. Last year, I went to the doctor with what I thought was strep throat because it has been the culprit of throat pain in the past. Did I say, "Doc, I have strep throat. Write me a prescription and I'll be outta here."? No way. It's his job to figure out what the problem is. In this case, it turned out to be viral pharyngitis, not strep. Yes, in the long run my doctor's visit was to acquire a cure, a cure that would take care of my symptoms, but my original appointment was made because I had throat pain. Calling a doctor's office and making an appointment with the reason being "I have strep" is quite a presumption, don't you think? I suppose my original post at 11:07 needed to be slightly rephrased, and my post at 11:14 as well. "What we have here is a failure to communicate"!  Let's leave this behind.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> IF and only IF the shutdown lasted long enough to affect Amtrak... Amtrak would be the least of our worries at that point.


Ain't that the truth!


----------



## Ryan (Apr 7, 2011)

BobWeaver said:


> It is unfortunate that defense programs often times live and die by shifts due to modernization and changes in threats, which, in addition to funding concerns, was what brought down the Next Gen Cruiser program.


Changes in the threat had nothing to do with the cancellation of CG(X) - since then I moved onto a company that does threat modeling and if anything the threat has evolved such that CG(X) is even more necessary than it was 4 years ago. Point is, you can't just blindly trust that the DoD has it's priorities straight and is a fathlful steward of the taxpayers dollars because I'm here to tell you that you can't and they aren't.


BobWeaver said:


> Calling a doctor's office and making an appointment with the reason being "I have strep" is quite a presumption, don't you think?


It's funny you say that, that's almost exactly what I said when I called and when I spoke to the doctor. I didn't have a sore throat, but neither did my son when he had strep the week prior. The doctor agreed that it didn't look like strep at all, but did a throat culture to be safe since I had been exposed. Sure enough the test came back and said that I had strep and I was able to avoid passing it on to other people.


> If you really want to turn this Amtrak thread into a medical debate, we can.


 Your call. If you don't want the discussion turned to medical things or wasteful DoD spending, stop making incorrect statements about them. If you want to keep the discussion confined to Amtrak,confine your own comments to Amtrak related matters.


> PS: nice forum spam. Seriously?


You should also learn what spam is. Nothing in my post comes anywhere close to meeting that definition.


----------



## PRR 60 (Apr 7, 2011)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> ...The trains still run, the only way they would stop running is if the shutdown lasted many many months, when Amtrak gets up for FY2012 funding.
> 
> Remember Amtrak employees are NOT federal employees. Their pay comes partially from government subsidy, yes, but the majority comes from the farebox. Tha means if people are still riding trains, the money will continue. Additionally Amtrak as a corporation is free to seek private loans to subsidize it further in case Uncle Sam shows them an empty wallet.
> 
> IF and only IF the shutdown lasted long enough to affect Amtrak... Amtrak would be the least of our worries at that point.


The problem is that Amtrak does not get fiscal year subsidies in a lump sum on the first day of the fiscal year. The subsidy payments are made periodically throughout the year. In the event of a government shutdown, those periodic payments will stop. Since Amtrak does not bring in enough revenue to meet even operating expenses, much less all expenses, they will then begin to eat through cash until there is literally too little cash to operate. That would happen in a matter of weeks.

The biggest impact of an Amtrak shutdown would not be the stoppage of Amtrak service, but the shutdown of the NEC which would affect the commuter rail lines from Boston to Virginia. Amtrak moves about 75,000 passengers a day. The commuter lines move hundreds of thousands. The rails are owned, maintained, and dispatched by Amtrak. If Amtrak shuts down, the commuter lines shut down as well. People can get by without Acela, but having no NJT service into Penn Station is another matter.

However, as you correctly said, the major impacts of a government shutdown will not be with Amtrak. Amtrak will indeed be the least of the worries, and because of that, the shutdown should not last long enough to get Amtrak involved.


----------



## BobWeaver (Apr 7, 2011)

Ryan said:


> BobWeaver said:
> 
> 
> > It is unfortunate that defense programs often times live and die by shifts due to modernization and changes in threats, which, in addition to funding concerns, was what brought down the Next Gen Cruiser program.
> ...


You'll enjoy this article. While cost may have been the larger factor, threat definitely played a major role.


----------



## Oldsmoboi (Apr 7, 2011)

The Republicans are accusing the Democrats of "not being serious" about the budget deficit, yet the budget that Congressman Paul Ryan proposed gives yet another tax cut to the rich and pays for it by cutting medicare and programs for the poor....because that totally created jobs the last few times we did it..... Talk about not being serious...


----------



## jis (Apr 7, 2011)

PRR 60 said:


> However, as you correctly said, the major impacts of a government shutdown will not be with Amtrak. Amtrak will indeed be the least of the worries, and because of that, the shutdown should not last long enough to get Amtrak involved.


And also because Amtrak has something like 75% cost recovery, if it manages its cashflow carefully, it could continue operating for quite a while even in the face of temporary suspension of federal subsidies. It could cut back or reschedule many non critical projects to preserve cash for the period.


----------



## jis (Apr 7, 2011)

BobWeaver said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > BobWeaver said:
> ...


I'd strongly recommend that you guys get back to the topic of impact on Amtrak of Government Shutdown. Just sayin'. After blaming others of "Spamming" it is hardly becoming to continue on a line of discussion that has precious little to do with Amtrak. Afterall it will be quite a while before Amtrak is charged with producing and launching cruise missiles, or even running a submarine service  This site also provides you with facility of PM where you can discuss missiles and submarines to your heart's content with each other.


----------



## BobWeaver (Apr 7, 2011)

jis said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > However, as you correctly said, the major impacts of a government shutdown will not be with Amtrak. Amtrak will indeed be the least of the worries, and because of that, the shutdown should not last long enough to get Amtrak involved.
> ...


Any ideas as to what the low-hanging fruit would be if this problem comes to reality?


----------



## PRR 60 (Apr 7, 2011)

jis said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > However, as you correctly said, the major impacts of a government shutdown will not be with Amtrak. Amtrak will indeed be the least of the worries, and because of that, the shutdown should not last long enough to get Amtrak involved.
> ...


I'm not sure I'd say "quite a while". Amtrak's typical cash burn (negative cash flow from operations) is about $100 million per month. At the end of January, Amtrak's available cash was just over $80 million. Total passenger revenue (tickets, food, state support) is about $165 million per month. Wages, benefits, train ops (freight RR payments), fuel and power are about $205 million per month. Even assuming deferral of everything else, it's hard to see how they could operate more than a couple of weeks without the infusion of federal subsidy.

However, considering the havoc that a federal shutdown will cause elsewhere, I don't see the shutdown continuing to the point where Amtrak gets pulled into the mess.


----------



## Ryan (Apr 7, 2011)

jis said:


> BobWeaver said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


Thanks, Jis.

I would like to correct the record and point out that DDG-1000 and CG(X) were two different programs, and that CG(X) would have brought far more IAMD (Integrated Air and Missile Defense) capability to the table than what was built to be a "land attack destroyer"



BobWeaver said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > PRR 60 said:
> ...


All repair/maintenance/upgrade work on rolling stock and ROW other than FRA mandated inspections.

Furlough people working on things like E-ticketing, website upgrades, etc, etc.

Reduce number of agents at larger stations.

Reduce station hours at smaller stations (including the complete closure of some smaller stations like BWI where the platform is still accessible where the station building is closed).

Edit to add:

Marketing (both personnel and stop/suspend ad buys)

Reduce train frequency on corridor routes (reduced number of operating crews needed)


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Apr 7, 2011)

I don't appreciate people suggesting I have no idea what I am talking about without producing an iota of evidence that doesn't come from a news company that they know more than me on the subject. I don't mind, for instance, George Harris correcting me rail alignments, engineering, or other areas where he knows a hell of a lot more than I.

But, Mr. Weaver, if you wish to proclaim me to be wrong, I would like you to provide some solid first hand evidence to attest to your statement. Otherwise, what we have are differing opinions.

Furthermore, if you think that any operation, irrespective of who it is, has a capability of properly managing their monetary expenditures when they have very very limited controls on them... you're a cockeyed optimist.


----------



## alanh (Apr 8, 2011)

With respect to the DoD, it won't surprise anyone that the US is the top spender in the world. What does surpise people is by how much.

In 2009, the US spent $663 billion. The #2 spender, China, spent $98.8 billion. The US spent 6.7 times more than the next highest country.

In fact, the US spent more the next 16 countries _combined_ -- more than the total sum of China, United Kingdom, France, Russia, Germany, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Italy, India, South Korea, Brazil, Canada, Australia, Spain, Turkey, and Israel. [And Israel's is subsidized by the US.]

Ok, the US has a bigger economy than these countries. The US spent 4.3% of its GDP. The only other countries in that range are small Middle Eastern and African countries. The highest western nation is Greece at 3.6%. For the top spenders, China, 2.0%; United Kingdom, 2.5%; France, 2.3%; Russia, 3.5%; Germany, 1.3%.

Anyway you slice it, the US taxpayers have a much higher burden than any of these other countries. You could argue that the US needs to be able to be a world-class power. Fine, but be prepared to pay world-class taxes to pay for it.

Anyway, the relevance to Amtrak is to illustrate how stupid "Get rid of Amtrak, the Park Service, earmarks, and foreign aid, and the budget will be balanced." NOT EVEN CLOSE, NOT EVEN A START.


----------



## AlanB (Apr 8, 2011)

As posted else where on the net:

From a NARP e-mail:



> *Government Shutdown Should Not Affect Amtrak*
> ​
> At this mornings Amtrak hearing of the House Appropriations subcommittee chaired by Tom Latham (R-IA), Amtrak President Joseph Boardman, answering a question from Ranking Member John Olver (MA), said Amtrak could operate during a federal government shutdown lasting one month. He said he did not have a plan for month two.


----------



## Ryan (Apr 8, 2011)

I know that the prevailing wisdom is that it isn't going to last that long (and it's true that Amtrak will be the least of our worries if it does).

Hopefully they won't be dumb enough to pull this kind of a stunt:

http://blogs.federaltimes.com/federal-times-blog/2011/04/07/moran-congress-may-take-2-week-easter-break-during-shutdown



> We would hope and expect that if there is a shutdown that it will only last through the weekend. We of course will be on the job throughout the weekend trying to reach a resolution. An extension might last until the middle of next week. *But Congress has decided that it’s going to take an Easter break, the district work period they call it. *But for two weeks, Congress won’t be in session. So if there isn’t any resolution, the furlough could well extend for three or four weeks.


Jim Moraon, D-VA


----------



## GlobalistPotato (Apr 8, 2011)

alanh said:


> Anyway, the relevance to Amtrak is to illustrate how stupid "Get rid of Amtrak, the Park Service, earmarks, and foreign aid, and the budget will be balanced." NOT EVEN CLOSE, NOT EVEN A START.


Ron Paul made the point that even if the federal government cut EVERYTHING, we'd still be bankrupt, because of all the bailouts and the printing of money.

And the secret bailouts.

Really, Amtrak is relatively one of the best behaved government funded entities, especially compared to the Federal Reserve and the CIA.

I think the Federal Government has a reason to keep Amtrak around; as a morale booster, similar to "bread and circuses".

The people who want to get rid of Amtrak and those other things you mentioned want to do it out of political ideology, not "common sense" or fiscal conservativetism.


----------

