# Confusion: Point redemption trips scheduled by Jan 24 and then cancel



## C&O RR (Jan 17, 2016)

I just called AGR and to scheduled a points trip for April 2016. I asked the agent, “If I cancell this trip after Jan 24th will the new 10% penalty apply”. The agent said that I would get all of my points returned and that the new cancellation policy would not apply.

This is the second time that have gotten the same answer. Has Amtrak stated in writing the offical policy on cancelling point trips after Jan 24th?

:help:


----------



## jis (Jan 17, 2016)

I was told so by an agent too, but upon checking with guys who actually manage the AGR program I have been assured that I will be docked 10% of my points if I cancel after January 23rd.


----------



## Chey (Jan 17, 2016)

when I booked my trip yesterday I was told by the agent that if I cancelled on/after the 24th I'd be docked the 10%, she also said if I made an alternate reservation my points would be effective at the new rate, not the old.


----------



## DoB (Jan 17, 2016)

C&O RR said:


> I just called AGR and to scheduled a points trip for April 2016. I asked the agent, “If I cancell this trip after Jan 24th will the new 10% penalty apply”. The agent said that I would get all of my points returned and that the new cancellation policy would not apply.
> 
> This is the second time that have gotten the same answer. Has Amtrak stated in writing the offical policy on cancelling point trips after Jan 24th?
> 
> :help:


This is consistent with what I've been saying all along, that a return/cancellation policy is determined by the policy in effect when the purchase is made.
Others have insisted on disagreeing.


----------



## George K (Jan 17, 2016)

Chey said:


> when I booked my trip yesterday I was told by the agent that if I cancelled on/after the 24th I'd be docked the 10%, she also said if I made an alternate reservation my points would be effective at the new rate, not the old.


Wait.

You mean to say that if you made a reservation before the 24th (old system) and then modified it afterward, the NEW system would apply?

Planning a trip to NOLA, but I want to be sure the bedrooms aren't sold out when I travel. I wonder if it would behoove me to book both legs now, then modify after the 24th (looks like it would be fewer points under the new system).


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Jan 17, 2016)

George K said:


> Chey said:
> 
> 
> > when I booked my trip yesterday I was told by the agent that if I cancelled on/after the 24th I'd be docked the 10%, she also said if I made an alternate reservation my points would be effective at the new rate, not the old.
> ...


That's what I've been "hearing" here on AU.


----------



## George K (Jan 17, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> > Chey said:
> ...


Even if that's the case, the 10% penalty, if, indeed applied, would be more than offset by the points I'd pay for the new reservations.


----------



## Chey (Jan 17, 2016)

George K said:


> Chey said:
> 
> 
> > when I booked my trip yesterday I was told by the agent that if I cancelled on/after the 24th I'd be docked the 10%, she also said if I made an alternate reservation my points would be effective at the new rate, not the old.
> ...


That's what I heard. It's possible I misunderstood, it's also possible she misstated it. Who the heck knows!! We'll find out after the 24th,


----------



## jis (Jan 17, 2016)

DoB said:


> C&O RR said:
> 
> 
> > I just called AGR and to scheduled a points trip for April 2016. I asked the agent, “If I cancell this trip after Jan 24th will the new 10% penalty apply”. The agent said that I would get all of my points returned and that the new cancellation policy would not apply.
> ...


It is specially ominous when the folks who manage the AGR system insist on disagreeing with you though  since they make the rules that actually apply.


----------



## me_little_me (Jan 17, 2016)

I was told the penalties WOULD apply if my trip was modified or cancelled cancelled after Jan 24. The agent said they just had a meeting on it (this was about 10 days ago).


----------



## Bob Dylan (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm with jis on this! The word from the Executive Suite @ AGR is the Gospel! Believe it!


----------



## jis (Jan 17, 2016)

Just to recap ....

If the trip is cancelled after January 23rd 10% of the points will be docked and the rest refunded.

If the trip is modified, the points cost of the new trip will be calculated using the new rules.

Then if this is less than the points used for the original trip the difference will be refunded minus 10% of the difference.

If the points cost is equal or more then the difference (if any) will be taken from your AGR account.

If you don't believe it then go to FlyerTalk and send a message to AGRInsider and have the pleasure of getting the same information from him.

After the 23rd new rules apply irrespective of what rules were used for making the original reservation, whenever you try to modify the reservation in any way.


----------



## George K (Jan 17, 2016)

I just booked my trip (CHI - NOL and back). It's a one-zone bedroom redemption (50K points). I asked the agent if I can modify to take advantage of the new system after the 24th, and he told me I could. However, he did not tell me about the 10% of the difference penalty. Still, it's probably worth it in my case.

For my trip to NOL the estimator comes up with 13,697 points.

For the return to CHI, it's $22,460.

That's a total of 33,157, as opposed to 50,000, a difference of 13,843.

Yeah, I'd eat the penalty for that.


----------



## Ryan (Jan 17, 2016)

jis said:


> Just to recap ....
> 
> If the trip is cancelled after January 23rd 10% of the points will be docked and the rest refunded.
> 
> ...


Caveated with "agents on the phone frequently do whatever they please, so YMMV (depending on what the computer prompts/allows them to do)".


----------



## DoB (Jan 17, 2016)

jis said:


> DoB said:
> 
> 
> > C&O RR said:
> ...


Yet the two agents C&O RR spoke to agree with me.

If I make a purchase under the terms of a particular return policy, the merchant has as much right to retroactively modify the return policy as to retroactively modify the goods that I purchased. Or, to bring this back to AGR, if I spend 15k points for a fully refundable ticket for a roomette from Denver to Emeryville, Amtrak/AGR can't unilaterally change the refund policy in the future any more than they can change the origin or destination. Of course, if I then change my reservation after a new pricing and return policy is in place, I'm subject to all of the new rules, since both parties agreed to the change.

If Amtrak/AGR insists on applying a new refund policy to tickets purchased under an old refund policy, I wouldn't be surprised to see a class action lawsuit. In many cases the loss is quite significant. To take a high-end but perhaps not entirely atypical example, a 3-zone round trip in a bedroom currently costs 120k points. Somebody who booked a fully refundable round trip ticket for 120k points (perhaps as far back as February 2015), with the understanding that it's fully refundable, yet is docked 12k points based on the new policy, has lost the equivalent of $348 (based on the new point values).

There's a reason that, when retail establishments tighten their return policies, the new policies are only applied to new purchases. (And that reason is not generosity.)


----------



## jis (Jan 17, 2016)

Whatever. As I said I am just stating what has been explained at length by people who manage AGR. Typically participants in reward programs have learned over and over again that they do not win cases challenging changes in reward programs, even post facto ones. But of course only time will tell.


----------



## Ryan (Jan 17, 2016)

I can't imagine that the class of people impacted by this would be large enough to be noticeable.

Bluster about class action lawsuits are always amusing, though.


----------



## TinCan782 (Jan 17, 2016)

I booked a one-zone redemption a couple of months ago...*I was told there would be a points penalty if I cancelled/modified after the 24th*. For the time being, I'll go with that. If that doesn't happen so much the better. It is very unlikely I'll cancel as this trip is wrapped around an already booked and paid cruise.


----------



## inspiration100 (Jan 18, 2016)

So I know this has been asked before, but are name changes on the reservation considered "modifications"? The agent said a name change could be done without any penalty or change in points from the zone reward. Is that true?


----------



## PRR 60 (Jan 18, 2016)

My understanding is that a name change and a request to change to a different room will not trigger repricing.

With regard to the imposition of the new refund penalty on existing reservations, this was also done when refund penalties were first imposed on paid reservations March 1, 2014. That policy was applied to all reservations, including those made before the policy was announced. I thought at the time that the retroactive change to existing reservations was a little shaky legally, but it went through. It is possible that if someone cancels a reservation made months ago and makes a big enough stink about not getting all the points back, that Amtrak may relent. I would not bet on it.

If an airline pulls a stunt like this (selling a fully refundable ticket, then months later imposing a refund penalty), there is an official US DOT process for complaint and redress. There is no comparable official complaint path for Amtrak issues.

One thing I think Amtrak should do is to send all current holders of AGR award reservations for travel January 24 and beyond an email advising them of the points refund policy change. It would allow those who are not comfortable with the new policy the option to cancel without penalty by EOB January 23. That would also limit the surprise factor for future changes or cancelations.


----------



## Shanghai (Jan 18, 2016)

I had a situation where I wanted to change a name on an existing reservation

and I was told that a name change can only be accomplished by canceling and

rebooking the trip and may result in a higher fare. This was prior to Jan 24.


----------



## me_little_me (Jan 18, 2016)

George K said:


> For my trip to NOL the estimator comes up with 13,697 points.
> 
> For the return to CHI, it's $22,460.


Wow! $22K from NOL to CHI? For that, they should provide a personal chef! :giggle:


----------



## George K (Jan 18, 2016)

me_little_me said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> > For my trip to NOL the estimator comes up with 13,697 points.
> ...


Personal chef?

Ha! I got a personal _car_, baby!


----------



## boxcarsyix (Jan 18, 2016)

Just made reservations to/from Denver for late February. Would have saved 7000 points if I waited until 1/24, but the low bucket rooms were going fast. As it is, I have room 7 in one direction (not my preferred). After 1/24 I will call and see what shakes out. Love to have the points back but an enjoyable trip is more important. :wacko:


----------



## ain't no Metroliner (Jan 19, 2016)

When I booked my points trip a couple months ago, the agent told me the old rules will still apply if I cancel after 1/24.


----------



## jis (Jan 19, 2016)

ain't no Metroliner said:


> When I booked my points trip a couple months ago, the agent told me the old rules will still apply if I cancel after 1/24.


The agent was wrong. An agent told me the same. I inquired of the AGR management folks and they said in no uncertain terms that the agent was wrong. I suggested to them that they forthwith provide additional training to the agents to ensure that they stop misleading customers.


----------



## TinCan782 (Jan 20, 2016)

ain't no Metroliner said:


> When I booked my points trip a couple months ago, the agent told me the old rules will still apply if I cancel after 1/24.


I was told the *opposite* when I booked a one-zone redemption a couple of months ago (which is what I expected to hear).


----------



## NW cannonball (Jan 20, 2016)

ain't no Metroliner said:


> When I booked my points trip a couple months ago, the agent told me the old rules will still apply if I cancel after 1/24.


I think the agent was wrong about that. Everything I've read, all the Amtrak publications, all the reliable people here, like jis and frensic, all read the rules the same --

After 1/24 the new rules apply. Any changes after that day, the new rules apply. No zones, you probably get points refunded if you cancel on time, any change invokes the new rules.

Anybody please correct me if I'm mistaken about that, but it seems really clear.


----------



## tonys96 (Jan 20, 2016)

Ok....we are going to take Crescent from NOL to NYP in August. Under old rules, bedroom is 40k points. Current $$$ cost for two is $849, which translates to 29+k points. However, only one bedroom at that bucket left.

So, considering reserving at 40k points, and if bucket doesn't change bu 1/24, canceling it and rebooking at 29+k points, taking the 4k point penalty......will still be only 33+k points, far less than 40k.

What am I missing, or is this a good idea?


----------



## George K (Jan 20, 2016)

If the train is sold out wrt bedrooms, how will you know what the new price (and therefore point cost) will be?

BTW, I'm thinking of doing the same thing for my CONO trip in November, as I mentioned earlier.


----------



## tonys96 (Jan 20, 2016)

George K said:


> If the train is sold out wrt bedrooms, how will you know what the new price (and therefore point cost) will be?
> 
> BTW, I'm thinking of doing the same thing for my CONO trip in November, as I mentioned earlier.


Worst case will be that I go for 40k points......if price in $$$ = less than 40 k - 10% (4k) then I could cancel and rebook, correct?


----------



## Ryan (Jan 20, 2016)

Correct.


----------



## PRR 60 (Jan 20, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> > If the train is sold out wrt bedrooms, how will you know what the new price (and therefore point cost) will be?
> ...


The penalty only applies to points redeposited to your account, not to the total points involved. For example, if you book now for 40,000 points, and after the new program is in effect you see a lower price of 35,000 points, you can make the change. Since the refund (redeposit) to your AGR account is 5000 points, the penalty applied is 10% of the 5000 point redeposit (500 points), not 10% of the original 40,000 points.

Now, if the decision is made to cancel the AGR reservation in its entirety and re-book as a paid reservation, then the 10% penalty will apply to the full 40,000 point redeposit - 4000 points.


----------



## tricia (Jan 20, 2016)

FWIW: I just booked an AGR redemption on the phone, including a trip on the CZ where only lower-level roomettes are available. Since I much prefer upper level, I asked the agent about calling later to try to change rooms; I wouldn't change anything else about this reservation.

She told me that she and her fellow AGR agents were taking a training session today about the new post-1/24 AGR rules, and that she'd know more after she completed that training. But at the time of our phone call it wasn't clear to her whether even changing just from one room to another on an existing AGR-redeemed reservation would invoke a penalty after 1/24.

I'm going to call back 1/23 to see if an upper-level room has opened up. Will ask then about post-1/24 penalties for changing a room on an existing reservation and report back what I find, unless someone else answers that question here in the meantime.


----------



## willem (Jan 20, 2016)

Please report back here, even if someone else does answer that question in the meantime. And good luck swapping roomettes on the 23rd and avoiding the possibility.

Since one can change rooms (when dealing with a knowledgeable agent) at no cost, I would hope that there would be no penalty even after the change to AGR2.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler (Jan 20, 2016)

willem said:


> Since one can change rooms (when dealing with a knowledgeable agent) at no cost, I would hope that there would be no penalty even after the change to AGR2.


Willem, finding that knowledgeable agent is like finding "a needle in a haystack for me". When was the actual last time you did this? I have tried several times on several reservations to change my room and each time they insist the new location will have to be at the current "bucket" price whether more or less.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Jan 20, 2016)

Tennessee Traveler said:


> willem said:
> 
> 
> > Since one can change rooms (when dealing with a knowledgeable agent) at no cost, I would hope that there would be no penalty even after the change to AGR2.
> ...


In 2014, I had originally booked a roomette (AGR) EMY to TOL then coach TOL home but then decided I did not want to do the Toledo shuffle around midnight, so I called to add a roomette for the cash portion. After checking the roomette price online I called and asked if my current room was available for the rest of the trip. I was told that roomette would cost more than what I saw online so I said I believe she could override that and she didn't know how so I asked her to check with a supervisor. She came back and said she could do it and was appreciative of learning that she could. I learned on AU to ask for a supervisor if the agent doesn't know how to do something and if that fails, and it is something they should be able to do, to call back later and hopefully get an agent or supervisor who knows how.


----------



## CCC1007 (Jan 20, 2016)

These threads make me think that each room in every sleeper has a set price.


----------



## willem (Jan 20, 2016)

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Willem, finding that knowledgeable agent is like finding "a needle in a haystack for me". When was the actual last time you did this? I have tried several times on several reservations to change my room and each time they insist the new location will have to be at the current "bucket" price whether more or less.


It has been a while since I have tried to change a room after booking, because I now try to make any changes at booking time. Occasionally, I do need to suggest that the agent check with a supervisor on how to accomplish what I request during a booking. As AmtrakBlue suggested, do not be bashful about asking the agent to check with a supervisor.



CCC1007 said:


> These threads make me think that each room in every sleeper has a set price.


I expect each room does have a set price in the computer, and that's part of the problem. But the knowledgeable agent can swap the prices of two rooms, or at least move the price from one room to another if requested.


----------



## PaulM (Jan 20, 2016)

jis said:


> It is specially ominous when the folks who manage the AGR system insist on disagreeing with you though  since they make the rules that actually apply.


But don't seem to be able to effectively communicate them.


----------



## jis (Jan 21, 2016)

PaulM said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > It is specially ominous when the folks who manage the AGR system insist on disagreeing with you though  since they make the rules that actually apply.
> ...


I have pointed this out to them. The info appears to be there in the FlyerTalk Wiki on AGR, but is hard to come by at any Amtrak or AGR site.


----------



## Carolina Special (Jan 21, 2016)

I'm wondering if the impending DC snowstorm this weekend (assuming it happens) will have any impact on the 1/24 rollout.


----------



## PRR 60 (Jan 21, 2016)

Carolina Special said:


> I'm wondering if the impending DC snowstorm this weekend (assuming it happens) will have any impact on the 1/24 rollout.


I seriously doubt that there will be a postponement.

If someone is considering booking a trip using the zone system that requires an agent, I highly recommend calling tomorrow (Friday). Assuming that storm hits as forecast, getting through to Amtrak on Saturday, with the crush of calls and likely short staffing at the Philadelphia call center, may be a challenge.


----------



## me_little_me (Jan 22, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> Carolina Special said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wondering if the impending DC snowstorm this weekend (assuming it happens) will have any impact on the 1/24 rollout.
> ...


Or call late in the evening and get an agent in Los Angeles like I did last year.


----------



## tonys96 (Jan 23, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> Ok....we are going to take Crescent from NOL to NYP in August. Under old rules, bedroom is 40k points. Current $$$ cost for two is $849, which translates to 29+k points. However, only one bedroom at that bucket left.
> 
> So, considering reserving at 40k points, and if bucket doesn't change bu 1/24, canceling it and rebooking at 29+k points, taking the 4k point penalty......will still be only 33+k points, far less than 40k.
> 
> What am I missing, or is this a good idea?


Well...as it gets closer and closer to the date of the AGR changeover, I am getting a bit queasy of doing this. As it now stands, the bedroom from NOL to NYP is 40k points today. $$$ cost of bedroom is $849, or 29,291 points, BUT there is only one room at this price, and according to Amsnag, the next bucket goes all the way up to $1,209 (!!), or 41,711points......

If I reserved my room now @40k points, would that move the rooms to the next bucket, since there is only one room at the lower price?

So, it looks like a gamble right now....take the chance at nobody taking the room before midnight tonight and jumping in at the $849 price and saving 10k points, or taking a chance and losing 1700 points.........

Also: The changeover takes place at 12 midnight, in which time zone?????

And is the AGR website supposed to begin allowing sleeper booking at midnight? Since the call center closes at midnight Eastern.............

UPDATE: I called AGR and after 29 minutes on hold, got an agent who told me that the changeover takes place at midnight PACIFIC time. She had to put me on hold to go ask someone about that. She also went to ask someone about the website allowing sleeper booking, and that change is supposed to also be at midnight PACIFIC time, that is when the website is supposed to be reloaded with the option to book sleepers on points.

That is what I was told today anyway.......as with all things Amtrak, YMMV........


----------



## Ryan (Jan 23, 2016)

I have reason to believe that is likely correct.


----------



## PRR 60 (Jan 23, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok....we are going to take Crescent from NOL to NYP in August. Under old rules, bedroom is 40k points. Current $$$ cost for two is $849, which translates to 29+k points. However, only one bedroom at that bucket left.
> ...


The AGR call center closes at midnight eastern time. Since you need to book sleepers through the call center, for all practical purposes, the deadline is midnight tonight, EST.


----------



## tricia (Jan 23, 2016)

tricia said:


> FWIW: I just booked an AGR redemption on the phone, including a trip on the CZ where only lower-level roomettes are available. Since I much prefer upper level, I asked the agent about calling later to try to change rooms; I wouldn't change anything else about this reservation.
> 
> She told me that she and her fellow AGR agents were taking a training session today about the new post-1/24 AGR rules, and that she'd know more after she completed that training. But at the time of our phone call it wasn't clear to her whether even changing just from one room to another on an existing AGR-redeemed reservation would invoke a penalty after 1/24.
> 
> I'm going to call back 1/23 to see if an upper-level room has opened up. Will ask then about post-1/24 penalties for changing a room on an existing reservation and report back what I find, unless someone else answers that question here in the meantime.





willem said:


> Please report back here, even if someone else does answer that question in the meantime. And good luck swapping roomettes on the 23rd and avoiding the possibility.
> 
> Since one can change rooms (when dealing with a knowledgeable agent) at no cost, I would hope that there would be no penalty even after the change to AGR2.


Good news (in a small but significant way): Called AGR back today to try to change from lower-level to upper-level roomette on my already-booked AGR redemption, for travel later this year. Although there were still no upper-level roomettes available, the agent consulted with her supervisor and then told me that there will be no points penalty or additional points assessed if I call back and make a change from one roomette to another AFTER the AGR rules change tomorrow. Agent said she'd make a note of this on my reservation.

She was quite clear, though, that additional points WOULD be assessed if I wanted to make any other sort of modification: change from roomette to bedroom, or change dates of travel, etc. In that case, I'd be charged the difference between the number of points I initially redeemed to make this reservation, and the number of points that would be required to make the new/modified reservation on the date the change is made.


----------



## tonys96 (Jan 24, 2016)

Update on changeover:

Got online at 12:30 Pacific time and all Amtrak reservations were offline due to maintenance. Same at 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 and 4:00. At 5:00 central(6:00 eastern) reservations were back online with revamped website showing points as a payment option! However points button was not functioning. It got an alarm showing points were not acceptable as payment at this time, pay with credit card.

But after being on hold for 45 minutes, got through on phone and got our room at 29+ k points!

All is well....room B.......

Also, something new. Must have member number and a four digit PIN for AGR online. Was assigned a random PIN and can go online to change it to one of my choosing. but that doesn't seem to be working yet.

The following information in your Amtrak Guest Rewards account has been updated at your request:

PIN

If you have any questions regarding this change, call the Amtrak Guest Rewards® Service Center at 1-800-307-5000. A representative will be available to assist you from 5a.m. midnight, Eastern Time, 7 days a week.

Thank you for your business,

Amtrak Guest Rewards Service Center


----------



## willem (Jan 24, 2016)

Congratulations. Perseverence paid off.


----------



## tonys96 (Jan 24, 2016)

willem said:


> Congratulations. Perseverence paid off.


Thank you! :hi:


----------

