# Eliminating open-plan seating and having all cars be compartments



## TheCrescent (Mar 20, 2021)

With Covid, I don’t want to be in a train car with air circulating among dozens of people. And I never liked the handful of cell phone loudmouths on any train. 

For these reasons, why not eliminate open-plan seating and make all coaches into cars with compartments?

European railroads have long done this. I recall Belgian commuter trains even having this in the early 1990s.

Plus couldn’t compartments be transformed into couchette cars at night? Surely that’s more appealing than seats at night.

Thanks for letting me stand on my soapbox for a bit.


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## jiml (Mar 20, 2021)

Although some European trains have had compartments historically and some still do, one does not necessarily get a whole compartment to themselves. You run the risk of being seated with someone with any of the issues you suggested without the ability to simply move to another seat. We travelled in a compartment on DB in Germany two years ago (fairly new ICE train) and had to start by evicting the loud "self-upgraders" in our seats. We shared the compartment with various other people during the lengthy trip - some of whom were on cellphones frequently. Their conversations might actually have been less "in your face" in coach than in the enclosed space.


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## Trogdor (Mar 20, 2021)

Perhaps *some* European railroads have done this. I’ve done a handful of train trips around Europe and have only been in such a coach car once, and, IIRC, that was an older piece of equipment. The high-speed trains definitely don’t.


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## Cal (Mar 20, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> With Covid, I don’t want to be in a train car with air circulating among dozens of people. And I never liked the handful of cell phone loudmouths on any train.
> 
> For these reasons, why not eliminate open-plan seating and make all coaches into cars with compartments?
> 
> ...


Why not instead of re-designing all of our cars, just try to get a better air system? 

And air travel is much worse, as airlines are selling out their planes.


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## SarahZ (Mar 20, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> With Covid, I don’t want to be in a train car with air circulating among dozens of people. And I never liked the handful of cell phone loudmouths on any train.
> 
> For these reasons, why not eliminate open-plan seating and make all coaches into cars with compartments?



How do you see this working on the busy corridor trains (NEC, Michigan Services, etc.)?


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## Qapla (Mar 20, 2021)

I'm sure reducing the open seating to all compartments would reduce the ticket prices


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## jiml (Mar 20, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> The high-speed trains definitely don’t.


At the risk of disagreeing, here is a floor-plan for a current DB ICE First Class car. The compartments are on the right.


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## Cal (Mar 20, 2021)

jiml said:


> At the risk of disagreeing, here is a floor-plan for a current DB ICE First Class car. The compartments are on the right.
> 
> View attachment 21293


I believe they are just space for business people to have a private conversation, not for everyone. That is why there aren't so many of them.


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## jiml (Mar 20, 2021)

Cal said:


> I believe they are just space for business people to have a private conversation, not for everyone. That is why there aren't so many of them.


I defer to your knowledge of German trains. I guess as a couple of normal North American tourists we were very fortunate to be assigned them for 3 out of our 4 segments on our last trip there.


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## AFS1970 (Mar 20, 2021)

Even with small compartments, and even if they were mostly private, there is still only one air handling system for the car, not a unit for each compartment. Airflow is reduce but not eliminated between areas.


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## TheCrescent (Mar 20, 2021)

jiml said:


> At the risk of disagreeing, here is a floor-plan for a current DB ICE First Class car. The compartments are on the right.
> 
> View attachment 21293


I would love it if the new Acelas had that in first class: compartments for the cell phone loudmouths so everyone else could enjoy the peace.


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## jiml (Mar 20, 2021)

Also worth mentioning are some of the newer ICE trains have many more compartments, so @TheCrescent may be onto a trend - at least in Europe. I haven't seen one of these in-person yet, but they sure look interesting.


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## Mailliw (Mar 20, 2021)

Compartment seating seems like it would cause issues with accessibility requirements.


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## MisterUptempo (Mar 21, 2021)

I don't see the need to get too radical here. Why not just upgrade the air filtration system in the railcars? If Metra can manage it, Amtrak should.



> *High-tech air purification system to be installed on Metra railcars*
> 
> (March 17, 2021) -
> As part of its continued efforts to create safety and build rider confidence, Metra is significantly upgrading the ventilation system on its railcars with a new three-stage filtration and purification process, the agency announced today. The new system uses ultraviolet light, electrical fields and stronger filters to create the safest possible environment for its customers. Leading the way, Metra is among the first agencies to adopt such a comprehensive system for its railcars.
> The new system is expected to *remove and eliminate 99 percent of all airborne particulates, bacteria and viruses, including the virus that causes COVID-19*. Metra already refreshes the air every four minutes and uses hospital-grade MERV 13 filters on its train cars; the new system will be the equivalent to or better than MERV 17 or HEPA standards.



Here's a link to the full story.

With that, and getting the man-children to wear masks and get vaccinated, that should take care of any lingering COVID concerns.

Regarding the cell phone loudmouths, compartment seating is no guarantee you won't be seated with rude, oblivious people. Unless, of course, you were to purchase all the seats in the compartment. Also, do the compartments recycle only the air within, or is the air from all the compartments collected, filtered and redistributed among them? I honestly don't know.


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## jis (Mar 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> Also worth mentioning are some of the newer ICE trains have many more compartments, so @TheCrescent may be onto a trend - at least in Europe. I haven't seen one of these in-person yet, but they sure look interesting.
> 
> View attachment 21294


Needless to say, those compartments won’t have much effect on the spread of COVID.


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## dlagrua (Mar 21, 2021)

It is said that being outside reduces the chance of Covid infection so I would say that outside air circulation on the trains is beneficial. The doors open at all stops which also lets in fresh air. Its different from being on a plane where everyone is in a pressure sealed capsule all breathing the same air. When I used to fly I can't tell you how many colds I contracted.


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## caravanman (Mar 21, 2021)

I have travelled on many of the older style European coaches with the compartments that seat six people with a side corridor, and also some high speed TGV that had the small 4 person compartments in 1st class.
You will be seated facing others, so maybe not so good for reducing virus transmission?
I believe in Europe that the modern way is towards having more open coaches, rather than the opposite.
Getting all folks vaccinated and behaving sensibly around others seems the proper way to respond to infectious diseases, but it probably won't reduce inconsiderate cell phone use! 
PS Just wondering if the coach seating plan shown above is from "The Man in Seat 61" website...


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## TheCrescent (Mar 21, 2021)

Thanks, everyone.

So maybe the solution for my concerns is to have a few compartments in first-class cars, for cell phone users, and to have the rest of the car as open seating, as quiet zone?


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## jiml (Mar 21, 2021)

caravanman said:


> PS Just wondering if the coach seating plan shown above is from "The Man in Seat 61" website...


It's actually from the instruction page for DB's "How to book" page. I quickly Googled DB seating plan for an illustration that their high-speed trains indeed have compartments. That said, Mark (Seat 61) Smith is a great resource. Although I was a fairly experienced British rail traveller when we decided to try out German trains for the first time, I found his web pages incredibly complete and informative. I even reached out to him via email with a few unanswered questions and he graciously responded. When we returned for our rail tour of the Netherlands and other parts of Germany a couple of years ago I was an "old pro", although much more credit goes to DB's easy-to-use English website.


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## caravanman (Mar 21, 2021)

I thought it probably a coincidence, but that it might raise a chuckle with those "in the know" about the seat 61 website. Indeed, it is a hugely valuable world wide train travel resource.
I fully agree about DB's website, I have used that several times myself.


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## RovinMoses (Mar 21, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> It is said that being outside reduces the chance of Covid infection so I would say that outside air circulation on the trains is beneficial. The doors open at all stops which also lets in fresh air. Its different from being on a plane where everyone is in a pressure sealed capsule all breathing the same air. When I used to fly I can't tell you how many colds I contracted.


An airplane is not really a "sealed" capsule. It is pressurized, but the air filtration system on new aircraft brings in outside air and almost all modern jets have HEPA filters and recycle all the air every three minutes. However, cold viruses can still be transmitted on surfaces or by a passenger seated next to you. In addition, the possibility of picking up a virus in the airport is high especially during pre-covid days when waiting areas, dining areas, and airplanes were packed. Coronavirus study finds air on planes is safer than homes or operating rooms


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## west point (Mar 21, 2021)

By the time any compartments could be installed Covid-19 will be history. in the case its not the whole world will be in chaos.


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## jis (Mar 21, 2021)

I don't think that the probability of picking up COVID or indeed any other infection is markedly different between a busy airport and a busy trains station.


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## jis (Mar 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> Why not instead of re-designing all of our cars, just try to get a better air system?
> 
> And air travel is much worse, as airlines are selling out their planes.


Since we keep talking about risk of air travel, I thought I would provide a few citations that touch on the subject from trustworthy publications:









Risk of COVID-19 From Flying


This JAMA Patient Page describes the risk of acquiring the COVID-19 virus associated with air travel, steps that airlines and airports are taking to mitigate risk, and steps that passengers can take to reduce their risk.




jamanetwork.com













How safe is air travel?


MIT Medical answers your questions about COVID-19. Today’s topic? How safe is air travel? What about that re-circulated air in the cabin? And should I look for an airline that’s still blocking middle seats?




medical.mit.edu





When one throws in the fact that most reputable airlines are very good at enforcing mask rules on board, and a larger and larger proportion of passengers are either COVID recovered or vaccinated (almost 25% of the population in the US has received at least one shot as of 3/21/21), the risks of air travel are not particularly daunting any more and reducing every day.

Same is of course also true more or less, of train travel.


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## 20th Century Rider (Mar 21, 2021)

In order for compartment seating to be effective against covid it would have to individual or per couple or per group traveling together. Not cost effective and not going to happen in the US. As stated earlier, it could take years to develop such a car. The only alternative are the roomettes we have now on LD routes.

Hopefully with the massive vaccination program we will begin to approach normal by the end of summer.


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## NYP2NFL01 (Mar 21, 2021)

I think about The Beatles in "A Hard Day's Night". They shared a compartment with that little old man they "adopted" as their GrandDad


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## toddinde (Mar 21, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> With Covid, I don’t want to be in a train car with air circulating among dozens of people. And I never liked the handful of cell phone loudmouths on any train.
> 
> For these reasons, why not eliminate open-plan seating and make all coaches into cars with compartments?
> 
> ...


Compartments have been disappearing in Europe for years. You didn’t have them to yourself. There could be five other people joining you, any of which could be a carrier of something, so now you’re in a little room sharing the concentrated air with five others. An open coach seems better from that standpoint. I love compartments, and love it when I get a European train that has them. Maybe we’ll see them someday, but they’re kind of an anachronism in Europe.


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## hlcteacher (Mar 21, 2021)

no thank you, not a fan of "compartments"


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 21, 2021)

I was under the impression that European railroads were eliminating compartments in favor of open seating.


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## SarahZ (Mar 21, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> So maybe the solution for my concerns is to have a few compartments in first-class cars, for cell phone users, and to have the rest of the car as open seating, as quiet zone?


Or, rather than retrofitting all of the coaches to accommodate a few annoying people, you could book a Quiet Car (if available), let the conductor know someone is being disruptive, or wear headphones.

I'm sympathetic, as I hate loud cell phone talkers too, but I really don't see how creating compartments is going to help anything. You can't force loud people to purchase them.


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## TheCrescent (Mar 21, 2021)

SarahZ said:


> Or, rather than retrofitting all of the coaches to accommodate a few annoying people, you could book a Quiet Car (if available), let the conductor know someone is being disruptive, or wear headphones.
> 
> I'm sympathetic, as I hate loud cell phone talkers too, but I really don't see how creating compartments is going to help anything. You can't force loud people to purchase them.



Having a quiet portion of the first class car would be good business for Amtrak.

When I think that I can pay more for first class on the Acela but there will be at least one cell phone loudmouth, I often decide that I can pay less and go in the quiet car.


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## nferr (Mar 21, 2021)

Let's be real. These are basically longer distance commuter trains. I think some people here have never ridden on them. They get packed between some of the cities in the NE. These ideas are close to ridiculous IMO.


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## TheCrescent (Mar 22, 2021)

nferr, I hope that your post was directed at others. I'm a regular rider in the Northeast, mostly on the Acela but sometimes on Regionals and even sometimes on long-distance trains. I also used to be a pretty regular rider on European commuter trains in the Low Countries/Rhineland areas, which had compartments. I've also taken commuter trains with compartments around London.


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## Mailliw (Mar 22, 2021)

Including one or two seating compartments as a premium upgrade for groups might be worth considering for the new Amfleet replacements.


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## Exvalley (Mar 22, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Including one or two seating compartments as a premium upgrade for groups might be worth considering for the new Amfleet replacements.


That’s exactly what LimoLiner offered between Boston and New York. I also seem to recall that at least one European train offers a private room.


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## Cal (Mar 22, 2021)

Why not it not be a reserved seating, but just an area where people can go to if they wish to have a phone call or two people need to conduct private business?


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## jis (Mar 22, 2021)

Cal said:


> Why not it not be a reserved seating, but just an area where people can go to if they wish to have a phone call or two people need to conduct private business?


You really expect that to be something workable on an SRO train as is common in non-COVID times on the NEC? My recollection is that in rush hours on a Regional, I could very seldom find a so called "reserved" seat on an all reserved train when I boarded at Metropark, and inevitably had to gravitate to the Cafe to get somewhere to sit or at least stand pleasantly.

In other hours walking to the last Coach car usually led to a seat. After the Frankford Jct. derailment crumpled up a Business Class Car up front, they moved the Business Class car to the rear of the train.


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## Exvalley (Mar 22, 2021)

I found the European train with a conference room that I was thinking of. It's Trenitalia's Frecciarossa.


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## Cal (Mar 22, 2021)

jis said:


> You really expect that to be something workable on an SRO train as is common in non-COVID times on the NEC? My recollection is that in rush hours on a Regional, I could very seldom find a so called "reserved" seat on an all reserved train when I boarded at Metropark, and inevitably had to gravitate to the Cafe to get somewhere to sit or at least stand pleasantly.
> 
> In other hours walking to the last Coach car usually led to a seat. After the Frankford Jct. derailment crumpled up a Business Class Car up front, they moved the Business Class car to the rear of the train.


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## Qapla (Mar 22, 2021)

Reserved seating on LD trains with intermediate stops where many do not ride from beginning to end and reserved seating requests would "overlap" would be problematic at best, difficult to keep the passengers happy and a nightmare to administrate


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## Exvalley (Mar 22, 2021)

Qapla said:


> Reserved seating on LD trains with intermediate stops where many do not ride from beginning to end and reserved seating requests would "overlap" would be problematic at best, difficult to keep the passengers happy and a nightmare to administrate


It worked quite well for me in England, but the carriage I rode in had indicators to show if a seat was available.


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## TheCrescent (Mar 22, 2021)

jis said:


> You really expect that to be something workable on an SRO train as is common in non-COVID times on the NEC? My recollection is that in rush hours on a Regional, I could very seldom find a so called "reserved" seat on an all reserved train when I boarded at Metropark, and inevitably had to gravitate to the Cafe to get somewhere to sit or at least stand pleasantly.
> 
> In other hours walking to the last Coach car usually led to a seat. After the Frankford Jct. derailment crumpled up a Business Class Car up front, they moved the Business Class car to the rear of the train.



I think it's workable.

Reserving a portion of a few cars for the cell phone loudmouths is a good idea. Even if it's just a Plexiglass partition midway through a car and a few signs saying "Reserved for Cell Phone Users", it would be a lifesaver for people like me.


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## TrackWalker (Mar 22, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I found the European train with a conference room that I was thinking of. It's Trenitalia's Frecciarossa.



Now THAT'S a skinny table!


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## Mailliw (Mar 22, 2021)

The rectangular panels on top fold out to increase space.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 22, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> I think it's workable.
> 
> Reserving a portion of a few cars for the cell phone loudmouths is a good idea. Even if it's just a Plexiglass partition midway through a car and a few signs saying "Reserved for Cell Phone Users", it would be a lifesaver for people like me.


Right now, at this very moment, Amtrak has something called a "Quiet Car" on the Northeast regional, Acela, and maybe a few other services. It works very well, except that it is the rearmost coach car on the train, so when the train loads in Washington, where all of the passengers enter the boarding platform from the rear of the train, it fills up pretty quickly, because it's the shortest walk down the platform. It's possible that not all of the passengers in the Quiet car really care whether they're in it or not, which means that Quiet Car availability might be limited further up the line. 

There's no Quiet car for Regional business class or Acela First class, but the Acela First class does have a little secluded "phone booth" type nook on the end that somebody could use for more privacy. I'll admit that I once participated in a conference call while riding Acela First, but I wasn't the main participant of the conference, so I was mostly listening and not yapping my head off.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 22, 2021)

jis said:


> You really expect that to be something workable on an SRO train as is common in non-COVID times on the NEC? My recollection is that in rush hours on a Regional, I could very seldom find a so called "reserved" seat on an all reserved train when I boarded at Metropark, and inevitably had to gravitate to the Cafe to get somewhere to sit or at least stand pleasantly.


 
I think that in the last few years, even pre-Covid, the SRO crowds on the Northeast Regionals were a thing of the past. I've looked at photos of Northeast Regional and Northeast Direct consists from the 1990s and early 2000s and quite frequently the trains were only 5 cars long. My recollections over the past 10-15 years is that Northeast regional consists are typically at least 8 cars long -- 6 coaches, a business class and a cafe car. During busy periods, I've seen 9 and 10 car Northeast Regionals. Obviously, with 6 coaches instead of 3 or 4, there's a lot more capacity and the chances of being forced to stand are reduced.


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## railiner (Mar 23, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Including one or two seating compartments as a premium upgrade for groups might be worth considering for the new Amfleet replacements.


Some PRR Parlor cars used to have drawing rooms that could accommodate 5 to 7 passengers for conferences...
Amtrak does have that converted Metroliner car, number 9800, with parlor seats, a cafe, and several different sized private rooms that can be chartered for conferences...


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## ehbowen (Mar 23, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> I think it's workable.
> 
> Reserving a portion of a few cars for the cell phone loudmouths is a good idea. Even if it's just a Plexiglass partition midway through a car and a few signs saying "Reserved for Cell Phone Users", it would be a lifesaver for people like me.



You do know what would happen, right? The cell phone users would chafe at sharing that space behind the partition with others like themselves, and would move out into the general seating area to make their calls. SEE ALSO: History of "smoking sections" on Amtrak trains...


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## Deni (Mar 23, 2021)

jiml said:


> It's actually from the instruction page for DB's "How to book" page. I quickly Googled DB seating plan for an illustration that their high-speed trains indeed have compartments. That said, Mark (Seat 61) Smith is a great resource. Although I was a fairly experienced British rail traveller when we decided to try out German trains for the first time, I found his web pages incredibly complete and informative. I even reached out to him via email with a few unanswered questions and he graciously responded. When we returned for our rail tour of the Netherlands and other parts of Germany a couple of years ago I was an "old pro", although much more credit goes to DB's easy-to-use English website.


I'm also a fan of this site for seating plans and consists for several countries. (Which I found, of course, through Mark's Seat 61 site)




__





vagonWEB » Train compositions » 2022






www.vagonweb.cz


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## TheCrescent (Mar 23, 2021)

ehbowen said:


> You do know what would happen, right? The cell phone users would chafe at sharing that space behind the partition with others like themselves, and would move out into the general seating area to make their calls. SEE ALSO: History of "smoking sections" on Amtrak trains...



You're right.

The issue that I have is that I can either (1) go in first class on the Acela OR (2) go in peace and quiet in the quiet car.

I'd like to be able to (1) go in first class on the Acela AND (2) have peace and quiet.

But it's not possible due to the cell phone loudmouths. 

I thought that having a reserved part of the car just for the cell phone loudmouths would help, but you're right: anyone who is rude enough to yell into a cell phone (or watch movies, without a headset, on his/her phone, which I saw recently in Acela First Class) isn't going to think about other people.


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## jiml (Mar 23, 2021)

Deni said:


> I'm also a fan of this site for seating plans and consists for several countries. (Which I found, of course, through Mark's Seat 61 site)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally agree, and it was the source of the picture in Post #12 of this thread.


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## west point (Mar 24, 2021)

We cannot hope for normalcy by then end of August. OK adults that want to will be vaccinated but what about the kids under 16 ? They may not get too many sick but what happens if they become carriers of the many variants going around. I do not know and the experts certainly do not know what will happen next with this virus. Hope we are wrong but lets not count for our eggs to hatch yet.


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## IndyLions (Mar 24, 2021)

I guess I don’t understand all the angst at this point - whereas I completely understood it even just a few weeks ago. 

If you are vaccinated and stay vaccinated (as booster shots become recommended, etc) you are not (statistically speaking) going to die from the virus. Could you get sick? Maybe. Will you die? Probably with the about same odds as getting randomly hit by a truck.

I am not a proponent of overconfidence or carelessness - but at some point we have to live our lives and trust that we’ve protected ourselves well enough.


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## Qapla (Mar 25, 2021)

If we want to achieve "herd immunity" we need to protect others as well as ourselves. Even fully vaccinated it may be possible to pass the virus to others who are not vaccinated - a mask helps reduce that possibility ...


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 26, 2021)

Actually European trains are moving away from compartments altogether. But what is interesting Russia really hasn't moved in that direction. Most of their trains are still compartments with the exception of third class. That is somewhat like compartments just without doors. And of course everything turns into beds as well. I do think RZD has some fleet of day coaches for sure for the Nevsky Express but I don't think they have a large fleet of those cars. I could be wrong however. I'll ask my friend who does PTC in St. Petersburg for more info on that. Now the new high speed trains are getting away from compartments but still have some degree. The Sapsan has a special room you can reserve for your business meetings right behind the engineer. With a lounge, and a few seats. You buy all four tickets with yours.


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## jis (Mar 27, 2021)

India is gravitating towards two distinct types of train with rolling stock appropriate for them:

1. Overnight trains with sleeping accommodation. The most popular sleeping accommodation in India is the 3 tier sleepers with bays of 6 berths and two berths along the corridor on the opposite side from the bays. Only First Class AC has compartments. Nothing else has compartments, other than semi private bays for women in the regular sleepers.

2. Day trains with Chair Cars, which are basically like what are called Coach these days in the US. They come in four varieties non AC regular and executive, and AC regular and executive. Regular is 2x3 Executive is 2x2 seating.

They appear to be progressively getting rid of everything else including the so called 2 Tier AC Sleepers, though eventually they may be retained for the Rajdhani type trains.

So in general rooms are out except for the highest class of travel, a class that is not available on most trains.


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## coventry801 (May 21, 2021)

If you want to avoid seating with strangers, I think current Superliner Roommate layout would fit the bill perfectly. They don't even need any modifications.

Amtrak just have to discount the sleeper price for daytime usage without providing any bedding sets.


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