# Boston-Montréal overnight



## Fenway (Aug 25, 2022)

14 hours????? 

As much as I would love to see train service restored between Montreal and Boston I can't see this leaving the station.

_the train would run between Montreal’s Central Station and Sherbrooke several times a day, with one evening departure continuing to Boston’s North Station.

Under the plan, U.S. stops would include Island Pond, Vt.; Berlin and Gorham in New Hampshire; and Bethel, Auburn, Portland and Old Orchard Beach in Maine, before reaching Boston._









Group plots Montreal-Boston overnight train, with stop at Old Orchard Beach


A first phase would see the introduction of a Montreal-Sherbrooke train, with stops in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Farnham, Bromont and Magog.




montrealgazette.com


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## Tlcooper93 (Aug 25, 2022)

One of my fantasy dream trains for quite some time. I’d love to ride a sunset train up towards Portland and see Montreal the next morning. 

Doubt this will ever happen without a major cultural shift among many things.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 26, 2022)

I'm not betting on that.


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## jiml (Aug 26, 2022)

The Montreal - Sherbrooke route has been a target for restored train service since the discontinuation of VIA's Atlantic, so that part may find political backing, and the Downeaster route is in-place. However, I don't see connecting the dots between the two... too slow connecting the key endpoints and not enough population between to justify all the stops. A far more realistic (but still unlikely) extension north of Boston to Canada would be to New Brunswick and potentially to Halifax, as was discussed here some time ago when its proposal resurfaced. (See "The Gull".) A Boston-Montreal train needs a much straighter line, which would be cost-prohibitive, or simply a rethink of the Vermonter/Montrealer route.


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## railiner (Aug 26, 2022)

Wasn’t some private enterprise proposing a Montreal/Boston train a few years back, and actively soliciting shares? 
I don’t recall the details of that, except that they produced some slick promotional materials in support of it, including some well known supporters.
I don’t know if it was an honest endeavor, or an elaborate scam, but in any event, it faded away into oblivion. I wonder if there’s any connection with this latest proposal?

In light of the dearth of political support for VIA, I wonder how much political support for service to Sherbrooke would be?

I agree, the most likely route for a Boston/Montreal train would be from Boston to Palmer or Springfield, and then North…


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## jiml (Aug 26, 2022)

railiner said:


> Wasn’t some private enterprise proposing a Montreal/Boston train a few years back, and actively soliciting shares?
> I don’t recall the details of that, except that they produced some slick promotional materials in support of it, including some well known supporters.
> I don’t know if it was an honest endeavor, or an elaborate scam, but in any event, it faded away into oblivion. I wonder if there’s any connection with this latest proposal?


Yes, I recall that proposal too. I believe it was intending to use a more conventional routing via either the Adirondack or Vermonter tracks. Of course we know, from parallel discussion, the issues with either of those right now on the Quebec end.



railiner said:


> In light of the dearth of political support for VIA, I wonder how much political support for service to Sherbrooke would be?


I think the interest in Montreal - Sherbrooke would be regional rather than VIA-level. Heck, in Toronto or some US cities this would already be a commuter line.


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## fdaley (Aug 26, 2022)

Well, it's nice to dream, isn't it? The Gazette story never mentions the border crossing or what sort of rigmarole the customs agencies on both sides might require, which to me seems like the biggest obstacle among many to this service becoming a reality.

Of course I'd love to see it, and I'd find occasions to ride it -- as long as I didn't have to pile off with my luggage for customs inspection in the middle of a winter night at Island Pond.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 26, 2022)

Good for them for being optimistic and trying to do something positive. I wish them well.


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## Fenway (Aug 26, 2022)

railiner said:


> Wasn’t some private enterprise proposing a Montreal/Boston train a few years back, and actively soliciting shares?
> I don’t recall the details of that, except that they produced some slick promotional materials in support of it, including some well known supporters.
> I don’t know if it was an honest endeavor, or an elaborate scam, but in any event, it faded away into oblivion. I wonder if there’s any connection with this latest proposal?
> 
> ...


Yes back in 2013

_Many at the meeting gave Rebello $250 checks made out to “Fondation Trains de Nuit,” which means “Night Trains Foundation.”

Rebello, a former politician in Quebec, would not say how much he raised, but said it was enough to create a detailed operating plan, which is required by the railroads that own the lines between Montreal and Boston._









Montreal-to-Boston night train gains steam


Advocates meet in Canada to advance a plan for the ‘hotel’ passenger service, which would include stops in Portland and elsewhere in Maine.




www.pressherald.com


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## MARC Rider (Aug 26, 2022)

Looking at a railroad map of New Hampshire, it seems that at one time, there were tracks down from Littleton towards Plymouth, Concord (the state capital) and Manchester which would make a much more direct route for this service. It's a shame the tracks were pulled.


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## keelhauled (Aug 26, 2022)

Even more direct was the B&M between White River Junction and Concord. There were also east/southeast tracks from Wells River, Claremont, and Bellows Falls towards Boston. Now and again advocacy groups will suggest Burlington/Montreal to Boston trains via Springfield MA, but in my opinion they're tilting at windmills; I think those trains died for well and good when the tracks were severed east of White River Junction. There's just no way to beat Interstate 89.


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## fdaley (Aug 27, 2022)

Yeah, all of the historical north-south routes through New Hampshire have been defunct for decades. In some cases the rights of way and even tracks are still in place, and there are low-speed tourist operations on a few portions, but for the purpose of real intercity passenger service, you'd essentially be rebuilding them from scratch.

One good thing about this proposal is that the tracks involved are all in comparatively decent shape now. Some upgrades probably would be needed, but an overnight train probably would have more tolerance for some stretches of 40 mph running. 

Of course, a multi-frequency corridor between Montreal and Sherbrooke would need to be a lot faster than that to be competitive with the parallel superhighway, so some real investment would be needed there. And I'm not clear at all where that kind of money would come from in the current Canadian system -- certainly not from VIA, which has only the most skeletal system outside the Quebec-Windsor corridor. And the provinces seem more focused on much shorter-distance commuter services, most of which are rather slow.


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## Fenway (Aug 27, 2022)

From 1946 - there were several options






This option is one my Mom remembered taking 




I-89 and to lesser extent I-93 killed any reason for the RR's to exist. I can remember a family vacation in 1962 that driving from Boston to Montreal was an adventure - especially Vermont Rte 14. 

Vermont Transit bus by the late 60s had a reliable red eye in both directions between Boston and Montreal and airfare between the 2 cities was reasonably priced. 

New Hampshire decided back in 1981 that commuter rail from Concord, Manchester, Merrimack and Nashua to Boston was not worth subsidizing.


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## cfillekes (Aug 27, 2022)

jiml said:


> The Montreal - Sherbrooke route has been a target for restored train service since the discontinuation of VIA's Atlantic, so that part may find ...


Wait, VIA discontinued the Atlantic? When was that? I know they stopped going right out to the end of Gaspe peninsula, but there's no longer a train between QC & Halifax? What? I'm literally booking something on that route RN just to see, and it looks like it's still operating -- but only to Bathurst.


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## jiml (Aug 27, 2022)

cfillekes said:


> Wait, VIA discontinued the Atlantic? When was that? I know they stopped going right out to the end of Gaspe peninsula, but there's no longer a train between QC & Halifax? What? I'm literally booking something on that route RN just to see, and it looks like it's still operating -- but only to Bathurst.


You may be thinking of the Ocean, which runs entirely in Canada Montreal - Halifax and was reinstated following a Covid hiatus. The last VIA Atlantic, which ran through Maine, was near the end of 1994. CP had announced its intention to sell the tracks it ran on, making the train's future uncertain. (It had already endured several government cutbacks.) This ended service to Sherbrooke and a couple of towns in Maine.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 27, 2022)

cfillekes said:


> Wait, VIA discontinued the Atlantic? When was that? I know they stopped going right out to the end of Gaspe peninsula, but there's no longer a train between QC & Halifax? What? I'm literally booking something on that route RN just to see, and it looks like it's still operating -- but only to Bathurst.


No, the Atlantic ran right through Maine, and not only served Sherbrooke, it also served St. John, NB. The Ocean, the current train to Halifax, runs entirely within Canda and doesn't involve any customs checks.

Here's a picture of the signboard at the station in Brownsville, Jct. Maine in 1988:



By the way, this train involved two customs checks in the middle of the night -- one when leaving Canada and entering Maine, the other when leaving Maine and entering Canada. And done at inconvenient times. I think that the through passengers may have been in sealed cars, though. Given the reluctance that CBP and CBSA have with processing the current trans-border trains, I don't think this service is on the short list for revival.


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## fdaley (Aug 27, 2022)

The two-customs-checks-en-route routine on the Atlantic was only in effect for some months after the service was restored in the summer of '85. It was of course really unpopular, so the customs agencies, with some prodding by elected officials on both sides of the border, came up with something a lot more sensible. All of the doors except one coach door were sealed for the trip across Maine. Anyone getting on or off in Maine had to board or exit using that door, though Maine passengers had the full use of the train while on board -- i.e., they could book sleeper rooms, hang out in the dome, etc. People traveling between points in Canada, which was the vast majority of the riders, were exempt from the customs checks.

Two pairs of U.S. customs officers rode the trains to monitor the doors and to interview anyone getting off in Maine. One pair boarded the westbound at Vanceboro, and the other boarded the eastbound at Jackman. When the trains passed at a siding near Greenville, the two customs teams switched trains and rode back to their home station. People who boarded in Maine were interviewed by Canadian customs on board when the eastbound reached McAdam (about 6 to 7 a.m.) or when the westbound reached Megantic (about 3:30 a.m., which was still a bit harsh).

Anyway, it was a system that worked well from 1986 till the service ended in 1994, but it's hard to imagine either of the customs agencies agreeing to something like that now. But it wouldn't be applicable to the service being discussed in this thread, for which all of the people crossing the border would necessarily be going from one country into the other, rather than just passing through.


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## Anderson (Aug 30, 2022)

I'm doubtful of the overall proposal. Montreal-Sherbrooke is probably viable as a provincial-level project (it doesn't cross a border, etc.). Montreal-Candiac already has service on the commuter system, so I could see a case for extending service further out (though that line goes into Windsor Station instead of Gare Centrale).

The 14-hour runtime isn't actually horrid in some respects...if you leave Montreal at 7 PM, you'd get into Boston at about 9 AM. I think you'd have decent O/D traffic on both ends (Montreal-Sherbrooke and Portland-Boston). The question would be intermediate traffic...and I think you could get a respectable amount of that (maybe 50-75k/yr?).


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## railiner (Aug 31, 2022)

jiml said:


> You may be thinking of the Ocean, which runs entirely in Canada Montreal - Halifax and was reinstated following a Covid hiatus. The last VIA Atlantic, which ran through Maine, was near the end of 1994. CP had announced its intention to sell the tracks it ran on, making the train's future uncertain. (It had already endured several government cutbacks.) This ended service to Sherbrooke and a couple of towns in Maine.


The CP, and later VIA operated Atlantic LTD, was the only passenger train in the state of Maine, from a few years before the time Amtrak began in 1971, until the Downeaster began service, over thirty years later...


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## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 31, 2022)

This is actually a pretty intriguing proposal and if buy in on each end by the various transit agencies could be accomplished... (right?)


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## jiml (Sep 1, 2022)

As a reference point, this was the last VIA Atlantic timetable:


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## Exvalley (Sep 1, 2022)

Montreal to Sherbrooke is low hanging fruit. There have been proposals already for that route, and I have a feeling that we will see it someday. Perhaps when the light rail project in Montreal is complete and the province has the appetite to spend more money on rail.

As far as the complaint that the Boston to Montreal journey is 14 hours - I don't see a major problem with that for an overnight train. I would much rather the trip be 10-14 hours than the 5 hours that it takes to drive between the two cities. Granted, 14 hours is on the high end. 10-12 would be ideal. And none of this applies to a train that runs during the day.

While the odds of this project happening are not great - this is EXACTLY the type of rail project that we need. We need to start connecting major cities with overnight service, just as they are doing in Europe. The eastern seaboard has a lot of potential for this type of service.


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## Bonser (Sep 1, 2022)

Right now I'd settle for the return of the Adirondack.


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## Tlcooper93 (Sep 1, 2022)

Often I ponder whether it would make sense to restart the Montrealer to compliment the existing Vermonter, but have the train split in half at Albany like the LSL, with a few coaches and a sleeper going to Boston. 

Of course, this would require some upgrades to the existing east-west rail. 
I realize just how unlikely this is, but its a nice thought.


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## Exvalley (Sep 1, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Often I ponder whether it would make sense to restart the Montrealer to compliment the existing Vermonter, but have the train split in half at Albany like the LSL, with a few coaches and a sleeper going to Boston.



What about splitting the train in Springfield? I'm not sure if Springfield has the infrastructure to do that, but it avoids the slow trip through the Berkshires to get to Boston.


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## Tlcooper93 (Sep 1, 2022)

Long day trains between two important endpoints are very unappealing. But night trains have proven their popularity time and time again.
And yes, I do understand that it often is about connecting small communities, but since our rail system is soo slow to begin with, it makes sense to try to have as many night trains as possible.

Another reason why I can't understand why we don't have more sleepers/at least place an order. 
Between ordering 100 sleeper cars and financing higher speed tracks, one is cheaper than the other.



Exvalley said:


> What about splitting the train in Springfield? I'm not sure if Springfield has the infrastructure to do that, but it avoids the slow trip through the Berkshires to get to Boston.


Agreed! Hadn't thought of that. There certainly is enough un-utilized space to make it happen.


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## Fenway (Sep 1, 2022)

The meeting today is getting some traction on Boston media


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## GAT (Sep 7, 2022)

Interesting article in today's newsletter from The Points Guy








Go to sleep in Boston, wake up in Montreal: How proposed train service could work - The Points Guy


Canadian officials, leaders in New England and rail advocates are discussing a new overnight train. It would run between Boston and Montreal during the overnight hours as a sort of train hotel.




thepointsguy.com


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## jiml (Sep 7, 2022)

GAT said:


> Interesting article in today's newsletter from The Points Guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Saw that today. For a proposal with limited potential this one is garnering far more attention than expected.


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## Tlcooper93 (Sep 7, 2022)

jiml said:


> Saw that today. For a proposal with limited potential this one is garnering far more attention than expected.


Agreed.
I see far more potential in a night Montreal - Boston SS/NYP train than this one.
That said, this has been a dream train of mine for quite some time; this proposal, and the reaction to it is garnering far more attention that I think any of us thought it would.


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## Anderson (Sep 24, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Long day trains between two important endpoints are very unappealing. But night trains have proven their popularity time and time again.
> And yes, I do understand that it often is about connecting small communities, but since our rail system is soo slow to begin with, it makes sense to try to have as many night trains as possible.
> 
> Another reason why I can't understand why we don't have more sleepers/at least place an order.
> ...


The other advantage to overnight on this run is that the Boston-Portland and Sherbrooke-Montreal sections are likely to be "daylight" sections in both directions, so you'd pick up a decent slug of traffic on each end. A situation where your average through train has, say, 150 pax going close to end-to-end but you add 100-200 pax on each end isn't utterly implausible as long as the train is "reliable enough".

That being said, the "long daylight run" question really comes down to "how long?" At 14 hours (with nothing major in the middle), I agree this routing would _need _to be overnight. A bit lower (or with a significant intermediate destinations) starts changing the picture a bit, especially if the scenery is nice.

One thing I'll lament - it's a pity that the line through Conway/Bretton Woods isn't a viable option, since that line _would_ probably kick out a good amount of seasonal traffic for a daylight run, and it could still join up with the line through Sherbrooke. I'm guessing that the condition of most of the line is sufficiently bad to make that a non-starter, however.


Tlcooper93 said:


> Agreed.
> I see far more potential in a night Montreal - Boston SS/NYP train than this one.
> That said, this has been a dream train of mine for quite some time; this proposal, and the reaction to it is garnering far more attention that I think any of us thought it would.


That's basically adding a split to the old Montrealer. I wonder if MA could snag the section of track from Springfield to Worcester (or alternatively, Fitchburg-Greenfield and split in Greenfield) since that would notionally put everything "before" the split northbound under agency control of some sort or another (well, as long as the train doesn't go past...I was gonna say WAS, but you could extend to RVR right now and CLT once a certain segment is done, and still be in state/agency-owned territory). MNRR isn't always a "good host", but if there's some way to get CT to "buy in" you could probably get them to be a "not bad host". Vermont, on the other hand, might buy in to a revived Montrealer-ish timetable that goes down to DC so long as they don't have to pick up _all _of the cost...but having a direct train to Boston (versus a messy transfer at Springfield) wouldn't hurt them.

And yes, I think this is by far the "easier" option to put on the table.


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## Fenway (Sep 24, 2022)

jiml said:


> Saw that today. For a proposal with limited potential this one is garnering far more attention than expected.



Well into the '90s Delta had numerous flights daily from Logan to Dorval and Vermont Transit offered decent bus service.

Today only Air Canada flies the route and the fares are excessive. Greyhound only runs 1 bus a day in both directions.
Westjet had plans to fly between Boston and Montreal but the pandemic scuttled that.

Megabus Canada refuses to run a bus to Burlington, VT to connect with service to Boston.

Even the highway corridor between the 2 cities is something out of a Marx Brothers movie.

Quebec Autoroute A-35 was supposed to connect with Vermont's Interstate 89 in 1967









Transports Quebec officials hope A35 work will be completed near end of 2023 - Montreal | Globalnews.ca


Workers are building the third or four phases of the long awaited extension of the A-35 to the U.S. border. The latest section is expected to be completed by the end of 2023.




globalnews.ca


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## Tlcooper93 (Sep 26, 2022)

Advocates make push for Montreal-to-Boston passenger rail


Rail advocates are dusting off a proposal for passenger train service between Montreal and Boston. Read more on Boston.com.



www.boston.com





This overnight train idea really is capturing people’s attention and imagination. While I doubt it will happen, the amount of press is indicative of an overall cultural shift in attitude towards rail travel.


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## Willbridge (Sep 27, 2022)

I won't presume to favor a route, but from work that I've done on western routes it seems that there are customers in the rural areas who would use a service in the middle of the night as a means of getting into metropolitan destinations for a daytime appointment or connections. With a daylight train, it takes a two-night stay in the big city to accomplish the same purpose, possibly including big city hotel prices.

Of course, the schedule adherence needs to be good. Getting out to catch a train in the wee hours is no fun if it's running late and later.

In respect to Tlcoopers comment above, this past Thursday at a men's night dinner for my church a guy in his late 40's talked about how he had ridden Amtrak from Denver to Sacramento this summer. I held my breath, but he only had positive comments. This triggered a discussion favoring improvements, more routes, etc. For the first time in my life in a cross-section group like that I kept my mouth shut and just enjoyed the conversation.


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## west point (Sep 27, 2022)

There does not seem to be equipment availabl for several years. However, given equipment availability a quick start up might be a train from Portland - BON - Palmer- to MTR. But just do not believe there wold be enough potential rideers.


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## fdaley (Sep 27, 2022)

I do think a Montreal-Boston overnight routing through White River Junction and Greenfield or Springfield (or Millers Falls or Palmer) probably makes more sense than the route proposed here, if only because the border crossing would be closer to Montreal and therefore at more palatable hours in both directions. Unless of course the customs inspection can be completed at that new facility that was promised for Montreal.


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## railiner (Sep 27, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> For the first time in my life in a cross-section group like that I kept my mouth shut and just enjoyed the conversation.


Wow...that must have been difficult!


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## jiml (Sep 27, 2022)

IF (and that's a big one) there is sufficient impetus to restore Montreal - Sherbrooke on the Canadian side, particularly with the Government of Quebec onboard, the discussed route might be an ideal for a partnership between VIA and the sponsors. VIA certainly has the surplus rolling stock to provide the service, but crew and motive power are probably an issue. There could be worse options than leasing equipment from VIA, then contracting other needs. (Even Amtrak with state support?) That said, the Government of Quebec has done nothing about other pending issues involving cross-border rail (see customs facility, CN track rehab, etc.) and the Government of Canada would be unlikely to see any merit in getting involved.


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## railiner (Sep 27, 2022)

jiml said:


> and the Government of Canada would be unlikely to see any merit in getting involved.


Tourist spending?


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## Tlcooper93 (Sep 27, 2022)

railiner said:


> Tourist spending?


Canada is pretty surprising un-railfriendly. Not sure they would see an additional tourism surplus from this train.

Let’s be real, a night train, especially at first, would account for a very small number of people entering Canada.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Sep 27, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> I won't presume to favor a route, but from work that I've done on western routes it seems that there are customers in the rural areas who would use a service in the middle of the night as a means of getting into metropolitan destinations for a daytime appointment or connections. With a daylight train, it takes a two-night stay in the big city to accomplish the same purpose, possibly including big city hotel prices.


Even the old VIA Atlantic Limited on the former CP route through Maine used to pick up a few local passengers in rural towns like Brownville Jct., Mattawamkeag, and McAdam. I think they used one coach, the rest of the train being sealed to avoid having to deal with 2 border crossings in the middle of the night.


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## fdaley (Sep 27, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Even the old VIA Atlantic Limited on the former CP route through Maine used to pick up a few local passengers in rural towns like Brownville Jct., Mattawamkeag, and McAdam. I think they used one coach, the rest of the train being sealed to avoid having to deal with 2 border crossings in the middle of the night.



Actually, as one of those Maine passengers who rode the Atlantic a bunch of times in its final decade, I can attest that we had the use of the entire train once aboard. We just had to board or detrain at the one door that wasn't sealed. So if we had a sleeper room, for example, we had to hike through the train from the one coach door that was allowed to open. See Post #17 in this thread.


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## Anderson (Sep 28, 2022)

fdaley said:


> Actually, as one of those Maine passengers who rode the Atlantic a bunch of times in its final decade, I can attest that we had the use of the entire train once aboard. We just had to board or detrain at the one door that wasn't sealed. So if we had a sleeper room, for example, we had to hike through the train from the one coach door that was allowed to open. See Post #17 in this thread.


Man, talk about easy border controls...


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## Mailliw (Dec 27, 2022)

jiml said:


> IF (and that's a big one) there is sufficient impetus to restore Montreal - Sherbrooke on the Canadian side, particularly with the Government of Quebec onboard, the discussed route might be an ideal for a partnership between VIA and the sponsors. VIA certainly has the surplus rolling stock to provide the service, but crew and motive power are probably an issue. There could be worse options than leasing equipment from VIA, then contracting other needs. (Even Amtrak with state support?) That said, the Government of Quebec has done nothing about other pending issues involving cross-border rail (see customs facility, CN track rehab, etc.) and the Government of Canada would be unlikely to see any merit in getting involved.


Would VIA rolling stock even be allowed in revenue service in the US? Any sleeping cars would have to be Renaissance or Budd cars.


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## fdaley (Dec 28, 2022)

Mailliw said:


> Would VIA rolling stock even be allowed in revenue service in the US? Any sleeping cars would have to be Renaissance or Budd cars.


I don't see why not. The Budd cars have operated in the US before -- on the Atlantic until it was discontinued, and also on the Adirondack for a brief time about a decade ago after Hurricane Sandy.


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## Maverickstation (Dec 28, 2022)

The other factor here is the route, meaning Boston to Montreal. A Boston to Toronto overnight service would be far more popular. The excellent regional airline, Porter, operates multiple round trips between Logan and Billy Bishop (Toronto City Airport), daily. Their volume is back to 2019 levels since Canada lifted it's COVID restrictions. In fact I am typing this from Toronto where we treated ourselves to a post Christmas, pre New Years getaway. The flight was full, and ran on time, and had plenty of their regular travelers who make the trip throughout the year.

Toronto is a far more dynamic City than Montreal, it overtook Montreal as Canadas economic capital a long time ago, and is morphing into the Hong Kong of North America.
Not to mention Toronto has a Baseball Team (a great place to watch the Red Sox), and no language issues.

Ken


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 28, 2022)

Maverickstation said:


> The other factor here is the route, meaning Boston to Montreal. A Boston to Toronto overnight service would be far more popular. The excellent regional airline, Porter, operates multiple round trips between Logan and Billy Bishop (Toronto City Airport), daily. Their volume is back to 2019 levels since Canada lifted it's COVID restrictions. In fact I am typing this from Toronto where we treated ourselves to a post Christmas, pre New Years getaway. The flight was full, and ran on time, and had plenty of their regular travelers who make the trip throughout the year.
> 
> Toronto is a far more dynamic City than Montreal, it overtook Montreal as Canadas economic capital a long time ago, and is morphing into the Hong Kong of North America.
> Not to mention Toronto has a Baseball Team (a great place to watch the Red Sox), and no language issues.
> ...


How would Boston - Toronto be routed? The routes I can think of would either be a Boston section of the Maple Leaf running via Albany - Buffalo - Niagara Falls, or Boston - Montreal - Toronto via the planned route to Montreal. 

Personally I find Montreal a more interesting destination than Toronto. Other than the streetcar system I don't recall anything that attracted me to Toronto. Montreal's French culture to me is an attraction rather than a drawback.


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## jiml (Dec 28, 2022)

Mailliw said:


> Would VIA rolling stock even be allowed in revenue service in the US? Any sleeping cars would have to be Renaissance or Budd cars.


LRC coaches were frequently used on the Toronto-Chicago International. In fact VIA modified two of the ones built specifically for Amtrak to provide lounge service and they occasionally ran in mixed consists with Amfleet. I have pictures somewhere, but the only one I could find quickly online requires licensing. Google "LRC in Chicago" and you'll find it.


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## jis (Dec 28, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Personally I find Montreal a more interesting destination than Toronto. Other than the streetcar system I don't recall anything that attracted me to Toronto. Montreal's French culture to me is an attraction rather than a drawback.


Keep in mind that Toronto is the equivalent in Canada of what New York is in the US.


jiml said:


> LRC coaches were frequently used on the Toronto-Chicago International. In fact VIA modified two of the ones built specifically for Amtrak to provide lounge service and they occasionally ran in mixed consists with Amfleet. I have pictures somewhere, but the only one I could find quickly online requires licensing. Google "LRC in Chicago" and you'll find it.


I suspect that FRA will not allow the Renns, Everything else should be fine.


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## jiml (Dec 28, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> How would Boston - Toronto be routed? The routes I can think of would either be a Boston section of the Maple Leaf running via Albany - Buffalo - Niagara Falls, or Boston - Montreal - Toronto via the planned route to Montreal.


Those are the only two options I can think of. One iteration of the Niagara Rainbow was a Toronto slumbercoach and coach attached to the LSL, so there is precedent for same-train service to Boston with a change of cars.


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## fdaley (Dec 28, 2022)

jiml said:


> Those are the only two options I can think of. One iteration of the Niagara Rainbow was a Toronto slumbercoach and coach attached to the LSL, so there is precedent for same-train service to Boston with a change of cars.


I remember Amtrak and VIA had a joint overnight run between NYP and Toronto for a year or two around 1994 that was called the Niagara Rainbow, but it didn't run as part of the Lake Shore. It ran weekends only, initially Friday and Saturday nights westbound and Saturday and Sunday nights eastbound, and later only Friday west and Sunday night east. It had a late night departure from NYP, about 10:30 p.m., and an eastbound arrival about 7 a.m. I believe it actually had a standard 10-6 heritage sleeper, but the rooms were available at the slumbercoach rate as an incentive to get people to try it. Alas, it ended before I had a chance to ride it.

The schedule seemed like it could have been handy for weekend travelers from New York to Rochester and Buffalo, as well as Toronto, and with that schedule one could easily have a Boston section that would have decent arrival and departure times there. And a Boston-Toronto routing through Albany would be much more direct than going all around through Portland, Sherbrooke and Montreal. But you'd still have to figure out the border-crossing issues. If the cost of a sleeper room is comparable to Amtrak's contemporary fares, I don't think the people who'd ride it would take kindly to having to pile off the train at 7 a.m. with all their luggage for an hour-long customs inspection at NFS.


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## Tlcooper93 (Dec 28, 2022)

Maverickstation said:


> The other factor here is the route, meaning Boston to Montreal. A Boston to Toronto overnight service would be far more popular. The excellent regional airline, Porter, operates multiple round trips between Logan and Billy Bishop (Toronto City Airport), daily. Their volume is back to 2019 levels since Canada lifted it's COVID restrictions. In fact I am typing this from Toronto where we treated ourselves to a post Christmas, pre New Years getaway. The flight was full, and ran on time, and had plenty of their regular travelers who make the trip throughout the year.
> 
> Toronto is a far more dynamic City than Montreal, it overtook Montreal as Canadas economic capital a long time ago, and is morphing into the Hong Kong of North America.
> Not to mention Toronto has a Baseball Team (a great place to watch the Red Sox), and no language issues.
> ...


Having been to both, I find Montreal a more appealing destination than Toronto. Of course, T is much bigger, but that doesn’t mean everything to everyone.
My wife was born in Hong Kong but lived for 10 years in Toronto. She says HK and Toronto cannot be compared.
Montreal has plenty of attractions that matter to people and qualify as a destination (beyond a baseball team). Arts institutions, and schools among others.

Given trackage available, Toronto is not a feasible overnight destination train-wise. It would be far too long a journey, and would fall into the LD (though not strictly by definition) train category rather than something comparable to the Night Owl.


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## jis (Dec 28, 2022)

Here is an interesting article with substantial comments in reaction from back in 2009.









Connecting Montréal to the American Rail Network


A New York-bound route would attract far more passengers than one heading for Boston. Montréal is one of North America’s most appealing cities and it’s only a few dozen miles from the b…



www.thetransportpolitic.com





Really nothing substantial has changed in the basic parameters of the discussion.


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## Septa9739 (Dec 28, 2022)

I’m rather fond of the idea of overnight running Boston to Montréal via Albany, as a section of New York to Montréal service. It would take a roughly viable 13 hours today (maybe 11:15 after East-West Rail and Montréal customs improvements) and would run a schedule that would be favorable for East-West Rail. It apparently would be more politically viable in Montréal, but I think the real benefit is being able to piggyback on the strength of the New York market.


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## Anderson (Dec 28, 2022)

fdaley said:


> I don't see why not. The Budd cars have operated in the US before -- on the Atlantic until it was discontinued, and also on the Adirondack for a brief time about a decade ago after Hurricane Sandy.


The main constraints on those cars would be the windows (VIA still has glass, vs the FRA Lexan, but those can be replaced if needed) and the different under-train toilet tanks.


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## Tlcooper93 (Dec 29, 2022)

jis said:


> Here is an interesting article with substantial comments in reaction from back in 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alon Levy, as usual, makes some persuasive arguments in the comments. Though he does kind of steamroll everyone, which doesn't bode well for his own advocacy. 

It makes sense for a night train to serve NYC just based on numbers alone (it also makes sense for NYC-Toronto to have a Night Train). Which is why, as I've mentioned before, I am a proponent of a multi-destination train, splitting at Springfield or Albany, and going to both cities. 

The upside is you get a train to Boston more easily. The downside is NH and Maine are not served. I have no idea what the potential ridership was there in the first place though.


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## Bonser (Dec 29, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Having been to both, I find Montreal a more appealing destination than Toronto. Of course, T is much bigger, but that doesn’t mean everything to everyone.
> My wife was born in Hong Kong but lived for 10 years in Toronto. She says HK and Toronto cannot be compared.
> Montreal has plenty of attractions that matter to people and qualify as a destination (beyond a baseball team). Arts institutions, and schools among others.
> 
> Given trackage available, Toronto is not a feasible overnight destination train-wise. It would be far too long a journey, and would fall into the LD (though not strictly by definition) train category rather than something comparable to the Night Owl.


I'm a Montreal guy too. Great city, great people.


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## jis (Dec 29, 2022)

Anderson said:


> The main constraints on those cars would be the windows (VIA still has glass, vs the FRA Lexan, but those can be replaced if needed) and the different under-train toilet tanks.


Right. As we saw before, without modification they cannot be operated on any of the MTA third rail equipped tracks around New York City.

Also there are some HEP related limitations on what position they can operate in a train of mixed consist, relative to the Amtrak standard HEP source and Amtrak standard HEP cars. They cannot be placed between Amtrak HEP cars and Amtrak HEP source locomotives. They can be at the tail of a train with nothing further behind them IIRC from when they operated on the Adirondack.


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## fdaley (Dec 29, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> The upside is you get a train to Boston more easily. The downside is NH and Maine are not served. I have no idea what the potential ridership was there in the first place though.


I do think a Boston-Montreal train serving Island Pond VT, Berlin/Gorham NH and Bethel ME would attract ridership at those towns that would be out of proportion to their population. All three are in/near summer resort and/or ski areas and are a long drive from the major population centers of the Northeast. They also have serious winter weather. So a train, even one that called in the wee hours, could be a real transportation option.

Still, from endpoint population alone, NYC-Toronto is clearly a much bigger market for an overnight service than Boston-Montreal. And a NYC-Toronto train could have a Boston leg on a direct route (BOS-ALB), whereas a Montreal overnight could not easily serve both U.S. markets without having a really circuitous routing for one of them.



Tlcooper93 said:


> Given trackage available, Toronto is not a feasible overnight destination train-wise. It would be far too long a journey, and would fall into the LD (though not strictly by definition) train category rather than something comparable to the Night Owl.



Based on the current LSL and Maple Leaf schedules, it looks like a train could leave Boston about 6 p.m. and arrive in Toronto by 9 a.m., including the Maple Leaf's current long border stop and its schedule padding from Buffalo to NFS. I don't think a Boston-Portland-Sherbrooke-Montreal run would be much shorter than that from end to end, maybe an hour or two difference at most.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 29, 2022)

Bonser said:


> I'm a Montreal guy too. Great city, great people.


All Canadian Cities are interesting, my favorite is still Ottawa!


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## MARC Rider (Dec 29, 2022)

fdaley said:


> I do think a Boston-Montreal train serving Island Pond VT, Berlin/Gorham NH and Bethel ME would attract ridership at those towns that would be out of proportion to their population. All three are in/near summer resort and/or ski areas and are a long drive from the major population centers of the Northeast. They also have serious winter weather. So a train, even one that called in the wee hours, could be a real transportation option.


Not so sure. I vacation in Maine sort of close to the proposed route. (In fact, I drive past and along part of the proposed route during the drive up.) The thing about tourism up in that part of the country is that once you get to your destination, you will absolutely need a car to get around. If people are going to take the train, they're going to need a convenient car rental when they arrive. Having been through Island Pond Vermont, or Berlin, NH, I just don't see there bing the market for a car rental agency that will be open in the wee hours when this train will be passing through. In fact, when I take the train to a Maine vacation, I don't even bother with transferring to the Downeaster, I just rent my car in Boston, or White River Junction (which requires an overnight hotel stay before one can pick up the car.)

Seems to me an overnight train from Montreal to New York makes more sense, with maybe a section that gets split at Albany to serve Boston. At least the infrastructure for passenger trains is all in place right now.

The other viable overnight train from Canda would be a New York to Toronto. In I have a 1969 timetable from Penn Central that shows such a service, operated in conjunction with the TH&B and CP. They also ran 2 daily trains between New York and Montreal in conjunction with the D&H, one was a day train, similar to the Adirondack, the other was an overnight train. Presumably, these trains ran until Amtrak Day.


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## Mailliw (Dec 29, 2022)

I think any night train would require preclearance in Montreal (or Toronto) and then run sealed to the US border.


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## Willbridge (Dec 30, 2022)

Mailliw said:


> I think any night train would require preclearance in Montreal (or Toronto) and then run sealed to the US border.


Sealed from TO brings back the issue of the substantial intermediate points. Some of the Montreal routes with short Canadian segments could work as sealed trains.

Of course, I may be biased because of seeing this guy in Gare Central every morning years ago. The aroma of baking bread... In contrast, I remember overhearing a trainer for a franchise muffin chain telling a newbie how tough the morning rush hour was in Toronto Union Station. Those memories from my time in Middle Canada as a visitor seem to characterize the two cities.

Montreal:



Toronto:



If I was still booking tours, I'd send them to Montreal and Quebec City.


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## fdaley (Dec 30, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Not so sure. I vacation in Maine sort of close to the proposed route. (In fact, I drive past and along part of the proposed route during the drive up.) The thing about tourism up in that part of the country is that once you get to your destination, you will absolutely need a car to get around. If people are going to take the train, they're going to need a convenient car rental when they arrive. Having been through Island Pond Vermont, or Berlin, NH, I just don't see there bing the market for a car rental agency that will be open in the wee hours when this train will be passing through. In fact, when I take the train to a Maine vacation, I don't even bother with transferring to the Downeaster, I just rent my car in Boston, or White River Junction (which requires an overnight hotel stay before one can pick up the car.)
> 
> Seems to me an overnight train from Montreal to New York makes more sense, with maybe a section that gets split at Albany to serve Boston. At least the infrastructure for passenger trains is all in place right now.
> 
> The other viable overnight train from Canda would be a New York to Toronto. In I have a 1969 timetable from Penn Central that shows such a service, operated in conjunction with the TH&B and CP. They also ran 2 daily trains between New York and Montreal in conjunction with the D&H, one was a day train, similar to the Adirondack, the other was an overnight train. Presumably, these trains ran until Amtrak Day.


Well, I think you're right that the train would have limited utility for tourists who have no other connection to that area. But there are a lot of people with second homes (my family included) and ski places up there who might keep a car at that end and use the train to get back and forth to their urban base. And there are retired/semi-retired folks who go to their North Woods camp from May to October whose adult children, friends, nieces/nephews etc. might use the train to visit for a long weekend or a week. The long drive in and out is the biggest downside for those who visit that region more than occasionally.

But definitely agree that Toronto-NYC and Montreal-NYC seem like most obvious choices for overnight service if the customs issues can be worked out to minimize the hassle and delay for those on board.

That D&H overnight run to Montreal did indeed run until Amtrak Day, but I believe the Toronto train was converted to a daylight operation, with transfer in Buffalo, sometime before that.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 30, 2022)

fdaley said:


> I believe the Toronto train was converted to a daylight operation, with transfer in Buffalo, sometime before that.


I have a vague memory that it was an RDC connection run by the Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo. Unfortunately traveling now but if I was home I could check my timetable collection, I recall having a timetable for that run.


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## jiml (Dec 30, 2022)

fdaley said:


> That D&H overnight run to Montreal did run indeed until Amtrak Day, but I believe the Toronto train was converted to a daylight operation, with transfer in Buffalo, sometime before that.





AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I have a vague memory that it was an RDC connection run by the Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo. Unfortunately traveling now but if I was home I could check my timetable collection, I recall having a timetable for that run.


Still running in '76:


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## Willbridge (Jan 1, 2023)

jiml said:


> Still running in '76:
> 
> View attachment 30915


In checking the Guide, it looks as though the overnight service, which included a 10-6 sleeper, was replaced by the _Dayliner_ in or about November 1970. In the same era, CN was running _Railiners_ three times daily between Toronto and a dead end at Niagara Falls, Ontario. I'm not sure when the CN's US partners gave up.


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## fdaley (Jan 1, 2023)

Willbridge said:


> In checking the Guide, it looks as though the overnight service, which included a 10-6 sleeper, was replaced by the _Dayliner_ in or about November 1970. In the same era, CN was running _Railiners_ three times daily between Toronto and a dead end at Niagara Falls, Ontario. I'm not sure when the CN's US partners gave up.


I think CN's partner was the Lehigh Valley, so that would have ended about 10 years earlier. There was an overnight LV run called the Maple Leaf that I believe was its last through train.


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## Maverickstation (Jan 1, 2023)

Willbridge said:


> Of course, I may be biased because of seeing this guy in Gare Central every morning years ago. The aroma of baking bread... In contrast, I remember overhearing a trainer for a franchise muffin chain telling a newbie how tough the morning rush hour was in Toronto Union Station. Those memories from my time in Middle Canada as a visitor seem to characterize the two cities.



OMG, what an ancient picture of Toronto, please !!! If you have not been there in the past 5 years or so, you don't know that city at all. It is far more dynamic, and far less white than that picture. Further the xenophobic government of Quebec has chased away the new arrivals from mid-east, and Asia, who have settled largely in Vancouver, Toronto, and the GTA (Greater Toronto Area). Further if you are looking for a great French Bistro, it is not in Montreal, it is in Toronto, Le Select.

Getting back to my initial comment, my point being today, not yesterday, the travel market between Boston and Toronto, is far larger than Boston and Montreal. 

Cheers (No translation required)

Ken


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## jis (Jan 1, 2023)

Maverickstation said:


> Getting back to my initial comment, my point being today, not yesterday, the travel market between Boston and Toronto, is far larger than Boston and Montreal.


The number of daily non stop flights suggests that your statement about relative demand above is quite correct.

As I mentioned earlier, while Montreal has its nice features that many here rightfully like, Toronto is still the business center of Canada and that has a lot to do with how much demand for travel is there to a city.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jan 1, 2023)

jis said:


> The number of daily non stop flights suggests that your statement about relative demand above is quite correct.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, while Montreal has its nice features that many here rightfully like, Toronto is still the business center of Canada and that has a lot to do with how much demand for travel is there to a city.


It would certainly be far more useful to me given my family in-laws there.

Porter air to billy bishop is a real convenient and enjoyable service, and you skip the hassle at Pierson. 

Boston-Toronto would be a 15-16 hour train, which to me is just on the cusp of being a useful overnight train (right timetable to serve business hours & needs). If it could be brought down to 12-14 hours, then that’s viable.


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## fdaley (Jan 1, 2023)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Boston-Toronto would be a 15-16 hour train, which to me is just on the cusp of being a useful overnight train (right timetable to serve business hours & needs). If it could be brought down to 12-14 hours, then that’s viable.


With current schedules it seems like the running time could be about 12.5 hours (5 BOS-ALB, 5.5 ALB-NFL, 2 NFL-TWO), so it's really a question of how much extra is required for customs and how much padding is added to help ensure on-time performance.


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