# Markets along existing Amtrak routes with untapped ridership potential



## DesertDude (Apr 30, 2022)

As I've spent more time in the realm of rail advocacy, I've found myself more interested in "low hanging fruit" improvements that would help Amtrak bolster ridership as opposed to grandiose plans of bringing back certain routes or building high speed rail. I think one area of improvement for Amtrak is marketing, as many people don't even realize that Amtrak is an option to travel from their city to certain other destinations. Generally speaking, if Amtrak can improve ridership on existing routes, it becomes easier to add increased frequencies and new routes. If ridership falls, that's a harder sell.

That said, I think there may be some select markets along existing routes where Amtrak could bring in a lot of new riders if they just did a better job of making people in the area aware that Amtrak is an option. One such market that fits the bill (IMO) is the Provo/Utah Valley area. 

I was just looking at Allegiant Air's interactive flight map, and was surprised to learn that they now offer non stop flights from the Provo airport to _eight_ destinations. It wasn't that long ago that they only offered flights from Provo to maybe two other cities (Oakland and Phoenix-Mesa, IIRC). Keep in mind that it's really not cumbersome to get from Provo to the SLC airport, which has many more flight options. Without traffic it's only a 45 minute drive, and of course there is the FrontRunner/TRAX option to get to the SLC airport as well. But even with the proximity to the SLC airport, there's enough demand from people living in the growing Provo area to support multiple flight destinations from the local municipal airport.

Provo has some other advantages as well. Between BYU and Utah Valley University, at least 20,000 college students (a demographic that may be more open to train travel) live in the area. The Provo station also has better calling times than the SLC station (eastbound is still a little rough with a 4:35 AM departure, but not so bad if the train is running significantly late). And while the Provo station doesn't have the amenities that the SLC station has, it also doesn't have the depressing Amshack and homeless problem found in downtown SLC. It's also within walking distance of Provo's city center and the Provo FrontRunner station. And for now anyway, none of those 8 Allegiant flights from Provo go to Denver, Reno, or Sacramento, which would be some of the main destinations for passengers boarding Amtrak, so no competition there. 

What do you think? What are some other cities where you suspect Amtrak has untapped ridership potential?


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## Maglev (Apr 30, 2022)

I think there's a lot of routes just within Texas that could be developed. I rode the _Lone Star _from Chicago to Houston, and recall its being quite full in Texas.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 30, 2022)

SAT-ALP-ELP has potential pending daily trains, better calling @ SAT, and usable overnight parking. SAT-AUS-DAL has potential with better schedule keeping, a lounge car, & increased frequencies.


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2022)

Certainly the Texas triangle, and all of the Southeast. Bringing back a LD from CHI to MCO to MIA would certainly be packed. But as service is scaled back... it's harder to bring back.


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2022)

The Sunset Limited serves a lot of large metropolitan areas, and a really large chunk of the route is pretty straight. I'm sure in another universe it could be a very useful train.


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## jis (Apr 30, 2022)

20th Century Rider said:


> Certainly the Texas triangle, and all of the Southeast. Bringing back a LD from CHI to MCO to MIA would certainly be packed. But as service is scaled back... it's harder to bring back.


You mean ORL. MCO is not an Amtrak code for anything around Orlando. It is the IATA code for one of the various airports associated with Orlando.


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2022)

jis said:


> You mean ORL. MCO is not an Amtrak code for anything around Orlando. It is the IATA code for one of the various airports associated with Orlando.


Thank you... got it!


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 30, 2022)

If you are talking tapping ridership on existing routes by adding trains/service, I would say Cleveland would be at the top of the list right off the bat. If good service (i.e. reliable, on-time and, especially between Chicago and Indy, much faster service) could be provided then one could add Indy and Cinci to that list, although this one is a slightly different case.


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## joelkfla (Apr 30, 2022)

DesertDude said:


> eastbound is still a little rough with a 4:35 AM departure, but not so bad if the train is running significantly late


But you may not know the train is running late until after your alarm has gotten you out of bed at 3am.


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## DesertDude (Apr 30, 2022)

Cal said:


> The Sunset Limited serves a lot of large metropolitan areas, and a really large chunk of the route is pretty straight. I'm sure in another universe it could be a very useful train.



Yes, I very much agree with this. I'll quote what I said on this forum a long time ago:

"...the Sunset Limited from LAX to NOL would be a very successful train in any sane world (and I'm not even talking about restoring the train NOL-FL). If you count Phoenix, the SL serves 4 of the 7 largest cities in the U.S. The route also has many retirees who have more time for train travel. Some of the places the SL serves (like Tucson, El Paso, and Palm Springs) don't have the best flight options, making it easier for Amtrak to be a competitive alternative.

Yet the Sunset Limited only runs 3 times a week, serves San Antonio at an ungodly hour, and annoyingly bypasses Phoenix and Las Cruces. If the UP was cooperative and Amtrak was aggressive about improving the SL, there's no doubt in my mind it could be the most wildly successful of the "transcontinental" routes. I'm talking you could easily get a solid ridership base for a twice-daily train, and I wouldn't say that about some of the other LD trains.

I'm afraid the wasted potential of the SL is just a microcosm of the wasted potential of the whole system."


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2022)

DesertDude said:


> Yes, I very much agree with this. I'll quote what I said on this forum a long time ago:
> 
> "...the Sunset Limited from LAX to NOL would be a very successful train in any sane world (and I'm not even talking about restoring the train NOL-FL). If you count Phoenix, the SL serves 4 of the 7 largest cities in the U.S. The route also has many retirees who have more time for train travel. Some of the places the SL serves (like Tucson, El Paso, and Palm Springs) don't have the best flight options, making it easier for Amtrak to be a competitive alternative.
> 
> ...


Absolutely.


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## daybeers (Apr 30, 2022)

IMO all of their routes have untapped market potential in some way. Increasing frequency is the best option.

The Lake Shore probably has the highest number of corridors set for raking in tons of ridership since it's basically a string of really strong corridors and populations.

Coast Starlight is another one.

Chicago-Pittsburgh & Pittsburgh-Washington on the Capitol Limited.

Carolinian, Palmetto, & Vermonter are all strong state corridors that could use increased frequency.

Downeaster north of Portland is very untapped. Moving the Portland station back closer to downtown would save easily 10-15 minutes.

Even on the NEC, especially the northern section, increased frequency and options late at night are lacking.


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## dadonatrain (Apr 30, 2022)

CHI-Detroit? CHI- St. Louis? Chi-Indianapolis-Cincinnati? Just a few that come to mind. All are fairly short hops, and total time wise incl getting to and through airports probably competitive with flying. Maybe not Chi-Cin but the others might could work.


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2022)

dadonatrain said:


> CHI- St. Louis?


Already has fairly good and fast corridor service.


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## dadonatrain (Apr 30, 2022)

I know, and I agree. But it might still be interesting, in the spirit of the OP, to think about ridership on trains vs planes on many short routes, plus think about what it might do for ridership if some routes took on trains with fewer intermediate stops, as a deliberate attempt to grab travelrs going all the from beginning to end.

Just blue sky thinking here, in the “what if” spirit of the OP.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 30, 2022)

dadonatrain said:


> Chi-Indianapolis-Cincinnati?



The potential market is there, I think. The Cardinal route that takes it through Oxford, Ohio where Miami University is located is ripe for more business if only there was a stop, maybe a flag stop?, and a decent station for that to happen. The Amtrak shack that exists in Cumberland, MD would be sufficient. Improving the arrival and departure times of the train would help as well.


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## Palmland (Apr 30, 2022)

Although I’m certainly biased since I live in the area, Orlando is a natural hub for passenger rail in a state that is underserved by Amtrak.

However, I think Brightline will take that market that Amtrak has neglected. It’s even possible a higher speed Brightline route from Tampa/Orlando to Jacksonville via Cocoa could at least match Amtrak’s schedule and do a better job of marketing, customer service, and equipment. 

The question would then be how best to integrate Amtrak’s Silver Service with Brightline’s Florida network.


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## west point (May 1, 2022)

The following recognizes the inability of more than any planned additional 2 RT trains is not possible until the Long Bridge additional 2 tracks are complete. At present only more cars on present trains will be possible.

1. The WASH - Richmond route especially south of VRE has shown high potential especially pre-C-19. Not entirely known if second Norfolk train will just be an extension from RVR.
a. 4 RT trains WASH - Selma have proven at times fully booked. 
b. The Carolinian from Selma to CLT keeps getting many passengers on the NCRR portion.
c. Palmetto has shown the ability to fill up all the way to present end at Savannah. However, extending it to MIA will give Orlando area stations arrivals early in the day for all Orlando attractions. As well early departures to Florida east coast. North bound late MIA departure same convivence. This RT will provide good connections for all the cruise ship departures and arrivals. Very high potential for additional service and will give some passengers ability to take a train other than the Silvers.
d. There is enough potential to restore the Florida special for mostly LD passengers. Offs only going south of JAX except Orlando and boardings only south of JAX going north.

2. WASH - Lynchburg - Roanoke with second RT will add better connections especially north of LYH.
3. Daily cardinal gives daily service especially Charlottesville and north.
4. The Crescent route will give much more passengers once north bound train returns to its 1930 / 0730PM departure at ATL.
5. A early day departure late arrival for a daytime train ATL - CLT - Raleigh - Richmond will fill need for that route service especially Greensboro south. Maybe combine with train at RVR as substitute as Regional? North of Greensboro the Crescent, Roanoke, Cardinal 4 trains will provide good passenger times.
5. Along with #4. CP seems willing to initiate FTW/ DAL - Meridian once the merger is completed. It appears that mid 2024 at the latest that that route can start. Maybe earlier if the problem of required ADA high platforms can be resolved. This is another reason for the Crescent to leave NOL at about 0630 - 0700. However, I believe that DAL - MEI - ATL - WASH will become the primary train NOL- MEI will either be a connecting train or joining Crescent at MEI. DAL - ATL will become baggage, 4 Coaches 2 - 3 sleepers, full diner. Split at MEI 1 - 2 coaches, sleeper , lounge. That will have Crescent become baggage, 6 coaches, lounge, diner, 3 - 4 sleepers. That will have Crescent compare to EB for number of cars and probably 3 locos. It gives Texas - NE, NEC including connections to Carolinian mostly single train service or 1 connection to eastern NC and Va.

All the above will add more passenger at all preset train stops with MEI - FTW adding potential passenger for stops all the way to NYP.


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## Skyline (May 1, 2022)

Plenty of reliable connections to/from Harrisburg eastward via the NEC and Keystone service, so...

One additional run Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, continuing to Cleveland where a connection could be made east and west along the LSL route.

There is probably a market west of Pittsburgh that would connect Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Chicago.

The key is better times at Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc than currently exist, to complement existing schedules.


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## jphjaxfl (May 1, 2022)

The Kansas City - Omaha market has lots of potential with possible connections to St. Louis, Southwest Chief destinations and Zephyr cities. There should be a choice of two routes: BNSF on the east side of the Missouri River or Union Pacific on the west side. There were 4 or 5 trains in either directions as late as the early 1960s.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (May 1, 2022)

DesertDude said:


> Provo has some other advantages as well. Between BYU and Utah Valley University, at least 20,000 college students (a demographic that may be more open to train travel) live in the area.


I think any place with a large number of college students would be a good place to advertise. Chicago - Campaign/Urbana for example. Or in my neck of the woods, Brunswick ME - Portland - Boston.


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## WICT106 (May 1, 2022)

Madison, Wisconsin. The Fox River Valley, to Green Bay. Chicago, through Wisconsin, to either Duluth & Superior, or Winnipeg.


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## MARC Rider (May 1, 2022)

Atlantic Coast route, not serving southern Florida, but local service between Jacksonville/Savannah - Charleston - Florence - Fayetteville - Richmond (and maybe to Washington). I couldn't believe that there's not a freeway that connects Charleston and Savannah.


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## Dakota 400 (May 1, 2022)

Skyline said:


> The key is better times at Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc than currently exist, to complement existing schedules.



Including Cincinnati in your thought, the train times are really discouraging to some, I suspect.


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## joelkfla (May 1, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Atlantic Coast route, not serving southern Florida, but local service between Jacksonville/Savannah - Charleston - Florence - Fayetteville - Richmond (and maybe to Washington). I couldn't believe that there's not a freeway that connects Charleston and Savannah.


Orlando is the busiest station in FL excluding the Auto Train, with twice the ridership of JAX in 2019. I think you'd pick up a lot more riders including ORL, maybe enough to justify the cost of running the train back to Sanford for servicing.


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## Trollopian (May 1, 2022)

Dakota 400 said:


> Including Cincinnati in your thought, the train times are really discouraging to some, I suspect.



Yes. My sister's family lives in Cincinnati; I could board the Cardinal in DC, but nobody wants to pick me up at Union Terminal (or listen to me slam the Uber door) at 2 a.m. Or 3:30 a.m. for the return trip. So I've never taken it.

Between Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, approximately 300 miles, there is no train. None. Except a long switchback via Chicago or Washington.


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## moselman66 (May 2, 2022)

To me the lowest-hanging fruit is to add frequency to comparably short segments currently covered by LD. I _don't _think either of these categories are low-hanging fruit:

--Trying to convince more people to take most existing trains. It's always hard to get people to change their travel habits, and enough people perceive the train as old, slow, unreliable, inconvenient...often based anecdote...that it's probably a tough sell.

--New routes. In addition to the regular barriers (freight line cooperation, equipment, operational funding, etc.) the basic existing infrastructure is often inadequate and the "we haven't had trains in 50 years, why would we bring that back now?" opposition is strong.

The best shots at comparably-easy success is to bring state-supported service to large city pairs which currently have just LD service. A few reasons for this:
--There is already precedence for Amtrak service in the community and an existing customer base, though smaller than it could/should be
--The new service is likely to be much more reliable and will benefit from the "newness" factor
--The LD service is often poorly timed, routinely runs very late and/or at peak times sold out
--The infrastructure already exists, and though there may well be case-by-case incremental improvements needed the basics are there

Here are some of the situations with the best potential for 1...or possibly even 2 or 3...trips to be added on top of the existing LD service:

Atlanta-Charlotte
Chicago-Kansas City
Chicago-Cleveland, possibly extended to BUF and/or PIT
Chicago-Minneapolis (already in the works)
Los Angeles-Tucson


A couple more with potential but perhaps not a slam dunk based on other factors such as market size/weak intermediate points or speed
Chicago-Memphis
Chicago-Omaha
Fort Worth-Austin
Orlando-Jacksonville
Orlando-Tampa
Those last two or three in particular might be best served with a comparably frequent service like 4-6x/day...they are short enough that just overlaying one or two trains on the existing LD wouldn't really serve the market very well. Same with something like Austin-San Antonio.


Among the markets which just seem dangerously slow to be successful for a short-haul train to supplement the existing LD are these:
Houston-New Orleans
Houston-San Antonio
Pittsburgh-Washington
Dallas-Little Rock
Atlanta-Birmingham
Reno-Emeryville/SF
Los Angeles-Emeryville/SF
New Orleans - Memphis
Chicago-Indianapolis

That last one is especially painful. The drive from Indy to Chicago is three hours, and the train is roughly five. Make the train do it in something like 3:45 and a handful of daily trips would generate 400k riders without much effort. But that is decidedly not low-hanging fruit. And particularly given that a lot of Indy's wealthier travel-inclined demographics are found in the northern suburbs (Carmel, Noblesville, Fishers, etc.) backtracking to downtown Indy to catch a five-hour train to Chicago is just not appealing. As I type this (mid-day) Google Maps has the drive from Carmel to Chicago Union Station at 2:53, while the drive from Carmel to Indy Amtrak is 0:31. You can be well on your way to Chicago in the same time it takes to get to the IND station from much of Indy's affluent northern suburbs. And even for those in greater Indy who won't make the drive for whatever reason, the bus roughly as convenient and substantially faster than the train.

To be clear I did not scrutinize the "low-hanging fruit" against state political nor host railroad challenges. They are real but also sometimes hard to predict in terms of how tough they are to overcome. Any of these routes could have the practical brick wall of "you'll never get a cent out of the State of X" or "Railroad Y is already oversaturated between Dumptown and Stumpville Junction and will never allow another passenger train" concerns. But any expansion will have barriers, and I think these are as ripe as any to be low-hanging fruit if those barriers can be scaled.


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## west point (May 2, 2022)

After posting on another thread, I realized longer trains at present are not possible.

Background. The P-40s and some P-42s were delivered with HEP output limited to 600 kW. Now were later P-42s delivered with higher outputs have no idea. 6 P-40s were modified with 1000 kW inverters for Auto train. So, until enough ALCs are available for any route Amtrak cannot really add length beyond 11 -13 cars depending on each type of car's HEP draw. (Diners much higher) The primary example today is the Empire Builder. I would expect Amtrak would need at least 12 operable ALCs + spare at SEA and CHI to guarantee longer trains. 

That is 2 ALCs each EB train set with 1000 kW HEP in case one ALC should fail.

These limitations also apply to any other route's train. The Super star's length probably cannot be more for the same limitations. My proposal of combining Crescent and FTW - Meridian train will not work behind P-42s providing HEP. Then we have Cal Z, CNO at certain times, Palmetto, Carolinian, LSL west of Albany, both Silvers, maybe Starlight. Those car numbers also apply to private cars on train.

Now the question comes to mind how was the combined CZ, Pioneer, and Desert wind worked. Only thought was some F-40s had 1000 Kw HEP?

In reference to previous post. Amtrak can reach untapped potential adding cars to the posted trains when enough engineers, conductors, and OBS are in revenue service. As well get OOS cars into revenue service along with enough ALCs44s in revenue service. What are the delivery dates of ALCs and how long to get them in revenue service after that?


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## Dakota 400 (May 2, 2022)

Trollopian said:


> Yes. My sister's family lives in Cincinnati; I could board the Cardinal in DC, but nobody wants to pick me up at Union Terminal (or listen to me slam the Uber door) at 2 a.m. Or 3:30 a.m. for the return trip. So I've never taken it.



That's my situation. I live in Dayton. The one time that I rode on the Cardinal, I asked a friend to take me to Cincinnati and bring me home. She is a really good friend, but, on the ride home, she made it very clear that she would not be interested in doing so again.

I have looked at using a car service to/from Cincinnati, but, that's not inexpensive.


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## rs9 (May 2, 2022)

I think Amtrak could be a lot more creative with stimulating markets. It's one thing to have an unserved market, another for people to change their behavior.

Here's an example that comes to mind: Amtrak football special at Madison, Wis., 1975. — Amtrak: History of America’s Railroad

One of the challenges for Amtrak's urban hubs is the lack of connectivity at outlying stations. For example, most Chicago residents would have little reason to travel to/from MDT (Mendota, Illinois). Within a 20 mile radius is one of the most visited state parks in the state, Starved Rock...but no reasonable way from station to state park. A ticket package including round trip tickets and a shuttle would not only give people a reason not to drive but also a reason to take Amtrak, which I think would be a step toward changing attitudes/behaviors to train travel.


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## Northwestern (May 2, 2022)

An interesting post, with a lot of good suggestions. I've heard some good things about the FrontRunner commuter train, Provo to Ogen. It would be great if the Runner could make a good connection with the Calif. Zephyr, but I think the Zephyr arrival schedules, into Salt Lake City, would need to change.

As far as areas for untapped ridership potential, Marin and Sonoma counties, in Northern Calif, might be a possibility.

We now have a commuter train called SMART (Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit), which travels from Larkspur (in Marin county) north to Santa Rosa, CA. (in Sonoma county). SMART will eventually expand to Cloverdale, CA which is the northernmost town in Sonoma county. The only way to use a SMART train to make a linkage to Amtrak is to take a SMART train to the ferry, in Larkspur, to San Francisco and a further connection to Emeryville and the Zephyr station.

There has been a proposal to extend the SMART train from the Novato Hamilton station to Suisun/Fairfield, along highway 37. I'm not sure, but I think there are already tracks in place for such an expansion, although work on the tracks would probably be needed. Suisun/Fairfield is a station stop for the Amtrak Capitol Corridor train. Also, the Cap. Corridor train stops in Davis and Sacramento, with the ability to connect up with the Coast Starlight. The proposed SMART train expansion east, if it comes about, could bring in a lot of potential Amtrak riders from the North Bay area.


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## west point (May 2, 2022)

Amtrak needs a 2 pronged approach.
1. The first depends on the Gulf coast stand off As well as any court cases arising. If it goes Amtrak's way then Amtrak can start immediately propose more Regional trains and start shortly. If congress will pass some kind of short term ADA requirement exemptions then the services can start much faster.
2. Continue getting more out of service (OOS) cars back in service. Add those cars to the HEP limits of each route now in service. Those routes will then see a closer to operating expenses vs. operating costs.


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## jis (May 2, 2022)

The Super Star has run on occasions with 15 or 16 cars with either PVs or deadheads or extra Coach or combination thereof with 2x P42s. Its normal length is 13 cars.


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## west point (May 3, 2022)

D/Hs no problem just shut the cars completely down. Do not know about PVs HEP draw if using HEP.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (May 3, 2022)

moselman66 said:


> To me the lowest-hanging fruit is to add frequency to comparably short segments currently covered by LD. I _don't _think either of these categories are low-hanging fruit:
> 
> --Trying to convince more people to take most existing trains. It's always hard to get people to change their travel habits, and enough people perceive the train as old, slow, unreliable, inconvenient...often based anecdote...that it's probably a tough sell.
> 
> ...


Sounds good. I would add Boston - Springfield MA - Albany / Rensselaer to the "low hanging fruit" list, with additional local stops added such as Palmer, and timed to connect with the Vermonter.

Situations like Indy - Chicago not being useful for the Northern suburbs could be resolved by adding a suburban stop, perhaps near where the line crosses I-74 for a park and ride location.


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## jis (May 3, 2022)

west point said:


> D/Hs no problem just shut the cars completely down. Do not know about PVs HEP draw if using HEP.


At least the ones that I have seen deadheads on the Super Star have lights and HVAC on. So no they do not have everything shut down.

In any case 15 fully powered by HEP cars are not uncommon. I think you may need to check your figures about P42 HEP capacity again. They are 800kW capable of powering upto 16 Superliners.


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## lrh442 (May 3, 2022)

Chicago - Kansas City is a strong city-pair on the SW Chief that could support a second daily frequency. 
Travel time is very competitive with driving (7hrs 10 minutes vs 7hrs 47 minutes driving with no stops), and timekeeping, _on this segment_, is pretty good
I am astonished to find that the travel time on the SWC is actually faster than the Super Chief in 1963! The Super Chief carded at 7 hrs 35 minutes, both east and westbound, whereas Amtrak's SWC does it in 7hrs 10 minutes westbound and 7hrs 20 minutes eastbound.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 3, 2022)

Trollopian said:


> Yes. My sister's family lives in Cincinnati; I could board the Cardinal in DC, but nobody wants to pick me up at Union Terminal (or listen to me slam the Uber door) at 2 a.m. Or 3:30 a.m. for the return trip. So I've never taken it.


We have similar calling times where I live. Which is why we really need two trains spread twelve hours apart. The cure for Amtrak is more Amtrak, as they say.



Dakota 400 said:


> That's my situation. I live in Dayton. The one time that I rode on the Cardinal, I asked a friend to take me to Cincinnati and bring me home. She is a really good friend, but, on the ride home, she made it very clear that she would not be interested in doing so again. I have looked at using a car service to/from Cincinnati, but, that's not inexpensive.


Amtrak has always had a pervasive problem with last mile connections and it is getting even worse over time. Outside of Amtrak almost nothing connects smoothly and efficiently in our country except for planes and vehicles.


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## MARC Rider (May 3, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak has always had a pervasive problem with last mile connections and it is getting even worse over time. Outside of Amtrak almost nothing connects smoothly and efficiently in our country except for planes and vehicles.


That should be amended to say "Amtrak has a . . . problem with last mile connections _*at the smaller/less busy stations*_." I have has no trouble getting a cab or Uber at places like Chicago, New York or Baltimore, or even Savannah, GA. On the other hand, forget about Huntingdon, PA unless you have a friend to pick you up. 

But connections at airports don't always work well. Just the week before last I flew into Charleston, SC, and not only were no rental cars available at the airport location (and I wasn't the only person with this problem), but when I went to the taxi stand to get a cab ($17) to take me to the off-site rental location, there weren't even any cabs! Well, one finally came along after 5 or 10 minutes, but I had to share it, and that didn't even reduce the cab fare. When I returned the car, the ride sharing company was estimating a 40 minute wait for someone to take me to the airport (a 5 minute drive), and after 10 minutes, they had still not located a driver. The folks at the rental car company then tried calling a local taxi company and couldn't get anyone to answer. Even though they're not allowed to drive people to the airport, they did for me (probably to get me out of their hair.) Basically ,our transportation system depends almost exclusively on private automobiles, and if you can't drive one, or don't have one and don't have someone else to drive you, you're screwed.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 3, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> That should be amended to say "Amtrak has a . . . problem with last mile connections _*at the smaller/less busy stations*_." I have has no trouble getting a cab or Uber at places like Chicago, New York or Baltimore, or even Savannah, GA. On the other hand, forget about Huntingdon, PA unless you have a friend to pick you up.


Amtrak serves 500+ stations, the majority of which offer no last mile connections to a local service. If you travel in coach from DAL to SAS the last ten minutes of your trip can double or triple the total cost _because_ there are no practical connections in a metro of two million. Being able to work around a lack of connections by ordering a $50 ride on a $500 phone does not change this fact. If Amtrak is supposed to function as basic transportation it needs last mile connections at prices the whole train can afford.



MARC Rider said:


> Basically ,our transportation system depends almost exclusively on private automobiles, and if you can't drive one, or don't have one and don't have someone else to drive you, you're screwed.


I can agree with this. No matter how Americans may choose to travel in almost all cases a vehicle is expected to be at least part of the equation. There have been many times where it felt like American planners went out of their way to prevent trains, planes, trams, buses, and shuttles from connecting in a practical and efficient manner. Several years later I found out it was at least partly intentional.









U.S. Airports No Longer Have to Build Their Own Terrible Trains


The byzantine bureaucratic rule that made useful airport connections to mass transit difficult is finally gone. Its legacy will live on in our crappy trains.




www.vice.com


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## TheCrescent (May 3, 2022)

Charlotte-Atlanta

Soaring population and traffic, too short to fly but a pain to drive.


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## Fenway (May 10, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> Charlotte-Atlanta
> 
> Soaring population and traffic, too short to fly but a pain to drive.



With Greenville, SC in between


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## jis (May 11, 2022)

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts which were exclusively about transit connectivity to airports and little to do with Amtrak, have been moved to their own thread:






Transit connectivity to airports


I can agree with this. No matter how Americans may choose to travel in almost all cases a vehicle is expected to be at least part of the equation. There have been many times where it felt like American planners went out of their way to prevent trains, planes, trams, buses, and shuttles from...




www.amtraktrains.com





Please post about transit to airports in this new thread and reserve this thread for discussing market opportunities for along existing Amtrak routes.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


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