# Disparity in AGR Rewards



## VentureForth (Aug 11, 2014)

Blech.

I can redeem two 15,000 pt rewards for a nice RT up and down the NEC in a roomette - but I can only get as far as New York (without going back towards Chicago on the LSL). Could never get more than a single night onboard. Rest of any trip - if it were even a legal reservation - on anything else up to BOS, MTL, anywhere in Vermont or Maine would be a wasted use of points because I would get only Business Class, at best.

On the other hand, I can travel all the way to Albuquerque, El Paso, Denver or Wolf Point for a mere 33% more redemption for 3 nights onboard!

Amtrak needs more sleepers going through Vermont and Maine, as well as on the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack.

Better transfers in NYP would be nice, too.

Yes - none of this will happen. No eqiupment. No money. I don't mind a nice R/T to ABQ, but don't think my wife would hack it much.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 11, 2014)

True this VF!!!! Once the Viewliner IIs enter service, #66/#67 needs a Sleeper and/or one of the Silver Trains could be extended to Boston from NYP!! The Broadway Ltd needs to be brought back to life via the Penn/Cap connection and then a Daily Cardinal could start but run to STL instead of CHI!

Also AGR should look @ giving those of you who live in between ATL and NOL and the SE a break on booking Awards that don't penalize those going from ATL to the West Coast! ( ie make it a 2 Zone Award via WAS, not a 3 Zone! This would eliminate having to do a Layover in NOL on your dime!) Common sense and Fair!


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## the_traveler (Aug 11, 2014)

I agree that it's hard to go from the Silvers and get 2 overnights on a 1 zone award - but it's not impossible.

Last year, i went from FL to CHI via NYP. This year I'm going from FL to CA via WAS. In both these examples, a trip from FL to either CLE or TOL is a 1 zone award and gives 2 nights in a sleeper. While true that going to BOS, VT, MTR or Toronto only gives BC, those trains only offer coach and BC. (In fact, the Adirondack doesn't even offer BC - only coach.)


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## William W. (Aug 11, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> True this VF!!!! Once the Viewliner IIs enter service, #66/#67 needs a Sleeper and/or one of the Silver Trains could be extended to Boston from NYP!! The Broadway Ltd needs to be brought back to life via the Penn/Cap connection and then a Daily Cardinal could start but run to STL instead of CHI!
> 
> Also AGR should look @ giving those of you who live in between ATL and NOL and the SE a break on booking Awards that don't penalize those going from ATL to the West Coast! ( ie make it a 2 Zone Award via WAS, not a 3 Zone! This would eliminate having to do a Layover in NOL on your dime!) Common sense and Fair!


I'd imagine that the Silver Meteor would probably be the best candidate, due to scheduling. Maybe they should do a through sleeper first on a regional train to test the concept? It would be great if 66/67 could get a sleeper again. No one wants to be forced to go up-corridor overnight in a standard seat.

Daily Cardinal? YES! Reroute to STL? No.

I don't want to be cut off from connections in Chicago (I live in CIN for part of the year).


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## VentureForth (Aug 11, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> I agree that it's hard to go from the Silvers and get 2 overnights on a 1 zone award - but it's not impossible.
> 
> Last year, i went from FL to CHI via NYP. This year I'm going from FL to CA via WAS. In both these examples, a trip from FL to either CLE or TOL is a 1 zone award and gives 2 nights in a sleeper. While true that going to BOS, VT, MTR or Toronto only gives BC, those trains only offer coach and BC. (In fact, the Adirondack doesn't even offer BC - only coach.)


That's some good info for CLE and TOL. Unfortunately (sorry to Ohioans), neither of those two destinations are on my bucket list. 

We really need a SE to NW train. Bring back the Nancy Hanks II through ATL to Chattanooga, Louisville, et. al.


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## Railroad Bill (Aug 11, 2014)

Ah, come on Venture, Ohio should be on everyone's bucket list 

And yes, we love the trips to FLA from CLE for a very rewarding one zone rewards trip..


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 11, 2014)

Railroad Bill said:


> Ah, come on Venture, Ohio should be on everyone's bucket list
> 
> And yes, we love the trips to FLA from CLE for a very rewarding one zone rewards trip..


Bill, if Ohio is so great, why do you keep finding excuses to leave it? :giggle:


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## William W. (Aug 12, 2014)

I'm glad that they've kept the Silver Trains as one-zone rewards. It annoys me that the CL and the LSL are two-zone rewards. I guess I can see why with the LSL (limited space, and high sleeper prices), but when a roomette on the CL usually costs between $200-300, I can't justify spending 20,000 points for it. My goal when it comes to rewards points is to try to maximize the value of each point. I won't spend points if they are worth less than $0.02 per point for a particular reservation. Something in the range of $0.03-0.05 is ideal.


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## the_traveler (Aug 12, 2014)

I agree about WAS-CHI being 20K, but WAS to DEN or ABQ or DAL or MSP or NOL (via CHI) cost the same 20K.


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## William W. (Aug 12, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> I agree about WAS-CHI being 20K, but WAS to DEN or ABQ or DAL or MSP or NOL (via CHI) cost the same 20K.


That is a pretty clear example of where the current zone boundaries just don't make sense. Maybe they should modify the one-size fits all zone map so that it can better be applied to individual routes. Another good example is the CS. SEA to LAX is one-zone, for a 35 hour train trip. I don't want the cost for that route to go up, obviously, but it's silly that an 18 hour CL trip from WAS to CHI costs 5000 more.


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## Rail Freak (Aug 12, 2014)

Currently, I'm not a big fan of spending15k points to go out west via TPA-TOL or TPA-CIN or TPA -ATL. And the thought of taking the Sunset Limited TPA-NOL,(if it's ever brought back to service) is even less appealling!


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## me_little_me (Aug 12, 2014)

I'd like to see one zone defined as it is now with the addition that travel solely on a single train be considered one zone. So Cardinal end to end would be one zone and so would SL and EB. Boston to Indianapolis via NE Regional to NYP then Cardinal would be two zones. Even though NYC to Indy would be one zone (single train). For the Boston trip, user could pay for BOS to NYP or from Cincinnati to Indy.


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## neutralist (Aug 12, 2014)

or instead of zone, price it based on published mileage, 1 mile = 1 point etc. , those SPI->WAS->NOL or similar routes will no longer be feasible.


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## William W. (Aug 12, 2014)

That would completely change the program. I think that the revenue model for points earning is better than a distance model in this case.

I still think that AGR is one of the better travel rewards programs out there. On the airlines, good luck getting a low bucket reward. With Amtrak, they don't have rewards buckets that require you to pay more points for the same ticket, depending on how close you are to departure, and how many spaces are left. If there's a space available, it costs the same, points-wise, 6 months from departure as it does the day before.


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## crescent2 (Aug 12, 2014)

William W. said:


> I still think that AGR is one of the better travel rewards programs out there. On the airlines, good luck getting a low bucket reward. With Amtrak, they don't have rewards buckets that require you to pay more points for the same ticket, depending on how close you are to departure, and how many spaces are left. If there's a space available, it costs the same, points-wise, 6 months from departure as it does the day before.


I agree, William.



jimhudson said:


> Also AGR should look @ giving those of you who live in between ATL and NOL and the SE a break on booking Awards that don't penalize those going from ATL to the West Coast! ( ie make it a 2 Zone Award via WAS, not a 3 Zone! This would eliminate having to do a Layover in NOL on your dime!) Common sense and Fair!


Jim, please go to work for AGR.  Yes, we in the SE (ATL and southwest of it) must head northeast before going west as it now stands, and pay for an extra zone in doing so. And sometimes, like on my recent trip, the routing through NOL is not even allowed in AGR, so there's really no choice.

Of course, I liked our itinerary as we just wanted train time and well-timed layovers to do a little sight-seeing, so I can't complain about that mega-points trip.


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## amamba (Aug 12, 2014)

me_little_me said:


> I'd like to see one zone defined as it is now with the addition that travel solely on a single train be considered one zone. So Cardinal end to end would be one zone and so would SL and EB. Boston to Indianapolis via NE Regional to NYP then Cardinal would be two zones. Even though NYC to Indy would be one zone (single train). For the Boston trip, user could pay for BOS to NYP or from Cincinnati to Indy.


So basically any city on the NEC (excepting BOS, NYP and was) pay a penalty? That isn't really fair that I would have a penalty in PVD because no LD trains service my town. So BOS-chi on LSL is one zone but PVD -chi is two? That's even crazier than it stands now.


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## the_traveler (Aug 12, 2014)

How about if you live/start in Hartford, CT going to CHI. If you go via SPG, you pay 1 zone to SPG and another on the LSL. If you go via NYP or WAS, you pay 1 zone on the shuttle, a second on the regional to NYP or WAS then a 3rd to CHI!


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## Ryan (Aug 13, 2014)

crescent2 said:


> Jim, please go to work for AGR.  Yes, we in the SE (ATL and southwest of it) must head northeast before going west as it now stands, and pay for an extra zone in doing so. And sometimes, like on my recent trip, the routing through NOL is not even allowed in AGR, so there's really no choice.
> 
> Of course, I liked our itinerary as we just wanted train time and well-timed layovers to do a little sight-seeing, so I can't complain about that mega-points trip.


That's not an AGR, that's an operations problem for not publishing the logical route.

If you really want to keep such trips to a one-zone, you can always pay to get to NOL and start your award there. Sleepers on that end of the Crescent are notoriously cheap due to low demand.


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## the_traveler (Aug 13, 2014)

They used to be, but not anymore! I am going to NOL and coming back east, I wanted to pay from NOL to ATL in order to save 5K. The fare for NOL-ATL was well over $200!


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## me_little_me (Aug 13, 2014)

amamba said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to see one zone defined as it is now with the addition that travel solely on a single train be considered one zone. So Cardinal end to end would be one zone and so would SL and EB. Boston to Indianapolis via NE Regional to NYP then Cardinal would be two zones. Even though NYC to Indy would be one zone (single train). For the Boston trip, user could pay for BOS to NYP or from Cincinnati to Indy.
> ...


You do have a problem reading:

I'd like to see one zone defined *as it is now* with the addition that...

*Addition that...* Understand? The example I gave is one that crosses zone boundaries. That is why I used it. It would give an additional benefit to those using points for ONLY one train. It would not take away any benefits. It has nothing to do with the NEC as it would be the same as transferring from any other train (say the Crescent or Silvers). Sheesh!


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## crescent2 (Aug 13, 2014)

RyanS said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> > Jim, please go to work for AGR.  Yes, we in the SE (ATL and southwest of it) must head northeast before going west as it now stands, and pay for an extra zone in doing so. And sometimes, like on my recent trip, the routing through NOL is not even allowed in AGR, so there's really no choice.
> ...


Jim suggested AGR should give an awards break to us southerners in his post so that's why I referred him to AGR HR. 

I agree on the one-zone suggestion for those who want that routing. I've done the stretch between ATL-NOL many times and didn't want to go via NOL on our recent trip. Our layovers worked out perfectly on the two-zone routing and my friend had never visited DC. I'm just surprised that the NOL routing isn't also offered with the understanding the overnight is at the passenger's expense.

Traveler, sometimes bedrooms on that section are a little cheaper than roomettes if you are ever in the market for a BR.


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## amamba (Aug 13, 2014)

me_little_me said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > me_little_me said:
> ...


I understood what you posted, I just don't agree that only those without a connection should get a one zone ride. Your assertion that any connecting train would require two zones to CHI (as it stands now) doesn't help anyone on the NEC that doesn't have a LD train stop. So all hose stations in RI and CT are still paying for two zones to chi meanwhile NYP BOS and was get one zone rewards (plus I suppose PHL and other cities served by the cardinal). I don't think that is a good solution at all and penalizes people in non hub stations from the better deal.

So under your plan - a one train ride - would SeA to CHi on the EB be one zone? Again that doesn't seem very fair, if your goal is to help some of the disparities in awards found with the current zone map.

I don't have a problem reading, and I don't appreciate your insinuation that I have trouble comprehending your posts because I disagree with you. Please cease with your personal attacks.


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## Ryan (Aug 13, 2014)

You're missing his point - mostly because rather than explain it coherently, he's choosing to be insulting.

If it's a one zone ride today, it would still be a one zone, even if you had to change trains.

Additionally, any train trip that didn't involve transfers would be considered a one zone, regardless of geography.


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## jebr (Aug 13, 2014)

RyanS said:


> You're missing his point - mostly because rather than explain it coherently, he's choosing to be insulting.
> 
> If it's a one zone ride today, it would still be a one zone, even if you had to change trains.
> 
> Additionally, any train trip that didn't involve transfers would be considered a one zone, regardless of geography.


I think amamba's point is this:

The NEC to Chicago is currently a two zone reward no matter where you are on the NEC. The rule me_little_me wants to add would make it a one-zone reward for those who happen to live/board at one of the stations one of the LD trains serves on the NEC (assuming they take the LD train from that station instead of a regional connecting to a different LD train.) Those who don't have a stop on a LD route (but are on the NEC) get the short end of the stick, as they still would have to pay for a two-zone reward.


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## amamba (Aug 13, 2014)

Thank you jebr. That was my point


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## amamba (Aug 13, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Additionally, any train trip that didn't involve transfers would be considered a one zone, regardless of geography.


I was trying to address that with my EB example, but I suppose it would work for any of the two night western trains. I don't think it is fair to have those be considered one zone when those of us in the northeast are being charged two zones to go to CHI. 
I get that the only change suggested is that a one train ride is one zone. I just don't think that is addressing some of the disparities I see in the current system, namely that it's two zones to CHI for me personally from my home station. 

I thought we were discussing ways to make the zone system more fair. I don't think this is a good solution as it only seems to increase disparities in awards.


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## Ryan (Aug 13, 2014)

OK, I'm clutched in now. It wouldn't make it worse for you in PVD, but it wouldn't make a trip to CHI better, the way it would hook up the NEC LD stations.

The western trains certainly cause a problem as well.


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## I always rode the Southern (Aug 14, 2014)

Well it certainly wouldn't help those of us who ride the silvers as we would be limited to a straight line up to New York. I would have to do a Pittsburgh trip as a 2 zone, No thanks.


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## William W. (Aug 14, 2014)

Why not just move the dividing line between the eastern and central zones so that it intersects vertically with Chicago and New Orleans? That would seem like a pretty simple fix, IMO.

In addition, allow overnights in cities where that makes sense, such as New Orleans.


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## jebr (Aug 14, 2014)

I honestly think AGR wants most of those trips to be two zone rewards, hence why they draw the lines where they do. Moving the boundary to NOL wouldn't be a bad idea, but I don't see AGR wanting to cut trips from the east coast to Chicago down to one zone.

Honestly, what would be best, imo, would be that the shortest published route would be charged based on the number of distinct zones you go through (so ATN - CHI via WAS or CVS would be two zones.) Any other route could be taken, but it's starts at a one zone reward and each time you cross a zone boundary it adds another zone to your zone count.


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## Ryan (Aug 14, 2014)

I always rode the Southern said:


> Well it certainly wouldn't help those of us who ride the silvers as we would be limited to a straight line up to New York. I would have to do a Pittsburgh trip as a 2 zone, No thanks.


No you wouldn't. It's a 1 zone now, so it would continue to be a 1 zone.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 14, 2014)

Has there ever been a change in a frequent flyer program that improved the terms for members? All I can remember is tightening of restrictions, devaluations of points, etc., but of course I always remember slights better than favors.


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## the_traveler (Aug 14, 2014)

I don't think so, except now certain airlines offer one way awards. Which is good if you want to say fly to LA or PDX and take Amtrak the other way. No longer does it cost 25K to fly, only 12.5K! I had that happen to me when I flew to PDX but decided to take Amtrak back. The flight award still cost me 25K!


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## I always rode the Southern (Aug 14, 2014)

RyanS said:


> I always rode the Southern said:
> 
> 
> > Well it certainly wouldn't help those of us who ride the silvers as we would be limited to a straight line up to New York. I would have to do a Pittsburgh trip as a 2 zone, No thanks.
> ...


Yes I misread, gotta stop trying to read and think logically so late at night.. :help:


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## Ispolkom (Aug 14, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> I don't think so, except now certain airlines offer one way awards.


Good one! That definitely added value for me.


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## crescent2 (Aug 14, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think so, except now certain airlines offer one way awards.
> ...


Me too-- I'm glad to see that Delta will start offering one-way awards as I have a few miles with them. That might help me with my elusive CZ trip someday.


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## amamba (Aug 14, 2014)

RyanS said:


> OK, I'm clutched in now. It wouldn't make it worse for you in PVD, but it wouldn't make a trip to CHI better, the way it would hook up the NEC LD stations.
> 
> The western trains certainly cause a problem as well.


I just think it would be crazy to allow a 15K roomette award end to end on the CZ, EB, SWC, TE, etc. Those trains are generally 3 days and 2 nights - or even longer on the TE. Now granted that might be a small amount of the awards granted. Do we have any stats on what the average mileage is for one zone awards, two zone awards, etc? Just curious how those would stack up.

As it is, the system chaps my ass because I can only basically go to Florida (or Toledo! wheee!!!!!) for a one zone award. No offense to Florida (waves to pennyk) but it's too dang hot and humid for me there for over half the year and I'm a curmudgeon who hates disney world. So I end up with a bajillion points but not enough time to take a long train ride. I was considering a trip to some place like Charleston but I will need to go when its cooler. Or it takes me two zones to get to CHI from PVD currently, but meanwhile a trip from SEA - DEN with that sacramento layover is only one zone for two nights on the train. Those are some of the disparities that I see now that are inherent to the zone system. I don't really have a solution to solve them other than doing mileage based redemptions which other people would not be happy with.


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## William W. (Aug 14, 2014)

East Coast to CHI/NOL: One Zone

CHI/NOL-West Coast: Two Zones

East Coast-West Coast: Three Zones


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## jebr (Aug 14, 2014)

William W. said:


> East Coast to CHI/NOL: One Zone
> 
> CHI/NOL-West Coast: Two Zones
> 
> East Coast-West Coast: Three Zones


So SCD - MSP should be two zones as well? Or are we still having a one zone boundary somewhere in the West as well?

There's a reason they don't put the zone boundary in Chicago. I'm convinced that AGR wants East Coast - Chicago to be a two zone reward, because that's what they value the cost of the reward at.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 14, 2014)

jebr said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> > East Coast to CHI/NOL: One Zone
> ...


I love threads like this because each person posting has a very definite notion of what making AGR fairer means: fairer means that the poster personally should pay less. As usual, where you stand depends on where you sit. East Coast posters resent that it costs so much, relatively, to travel from the East Coast to Chicago. People from the southeast hate having to travel via Washington. People from the west coast, well, don't post to this thread. Probably too busy fighting fires. *Jebr* shows how any changes to the present system would cheat people who live in fly-over country.

Me, I think that it's fair that we in fly-over country have better award redemptions, because unless we live in Chicagoland, we don't have any trains to ride. Imagine trying to do a points run on a 12-hour late Empire Builder. You think it costs a lot of points to ride the California Zephyr? I can't even get there from here! I even think that it is just dandy that Wolf Point is the Queen City of AGR Redemptions, because that is probably the second positive statement I've ever been able to make about that town (the first is that Jordan, Montana is even worse).

Given that the zone system was probably scrawled on a cocktail napkin at a happy hour the day before AGR launched, when the Northeast Corridor-fixated AGR team realized they needed something for the rest of the system, I think that it works very well. I'll admit that it's getting harder to manipulate, but that's all in the game.

As *Amamba* suggests, the really fair system would be mileage-based, but I'd hate that.


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## William W. (Aug 14, 2014)

jebr said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> > East Coast to CHI/NOL: One Zone
> ...


I'm valuing a reward ticket based on the dollar cost of the same ticket.

Here's the issue that I have:

(CL)WAS-CHI:

20,000 points

Low bucket: $300 (on average)

Cash value of each used point: $0.015

(CZ)CHI-EMY:

20,000 points

Low bucket: $600 (on average)

Cash value of each used point: $0.03

As you can see, the value of 20,000 points used on a CL trip is half that of a CZ trip. This is especially hard to swallow when you consider that the CL is one night, and about 1/2 a day. The CZ, on the other hand, is two nights, and two days. I also take into account the distance traveled. The CZ is 2500 miles, whereas the CL is less than 800.

I would probably use a three zone reward if going from WAS-EMY, but I'd almost never use points to go from WAS-CHI. I value each of my points at $0.03-0.04 each. I don't want to waste them when I could save them and use them on a longer, more expensive route (the exception would be if I needed to book a last minute trip, and the bucket was high).


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## jebr (Aug 14, 2014)

How often are the eastern (or, for that matter, the western) long distance trains at low bucket, though?


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## William W. (Aug 14, 2014)

The CL is quite frequently at the lower bucket, except during holidays, or periods of high usage. The LSL is more reasonable, points wise, because it is usually $400-500, but the scale tips again whenever the western trains go up to the higher buckets ($700+).


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## Railroad Bill (Aug 14, 2014)

Yes, we usually pay for trips from CLE to NYP or CLE to WAS since the cost is better than using up points.

Always looking for more bang for the buck when going AGR.


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## crescent2 (Aug 15, 2014)

It was an ouch to have to add a zone for Toledo to Chicago, and similarly on the return award, but I know the line has to be drawn "somewhere." All in all a good system. The 2-zone roomette seems to be the best bargain of the accommodations.


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## benale (Aug 16, 2014)

We have a nice trip planned for next spring Toledo to San Luis Obispo via the Empire Builder with an overnight in Portland on our dime and back via the Texas Eagle,best bang for the buck with AGR. We live near Harrisburg Pa and couldn't see wasting a third zone which would have been 35,000 points both ways or buying two coach tickets to Toledo. We are going to drive to Toledo,about six hours and park at the station. I believe it's free parking. In this case for two people it is much more economical to simply drive and catch the Capitol Limited early in the morning.


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## VentureForth (Aug 18, 2014)

Well, the whole point to my starting the thread was to show that my 15,000 point roomette AGR redemption could only get me as far as Cincinatti or NYP in a single-zone reward in a sleeper. I can go further, in business or coach class but I'm not really sure how far.

For instance, I can't book a single reservation from SAV to Montreal because of the layover situation in New York. Many trains - ie: the Adirondack, Maple Leaf, Vermonter, etc., aren't available for single itinerary booking.

Per what was discussed in another thread, I think Amtrak should publish more routes with self-layovers in NYC.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 18, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> Has there ever been a change in a frequent flyer program that improved the terms for members? All I can remember is tightening of restrictions, devaluations of points, etc., but of course I always remember slights better than favors.


Depends on how you look at it. At one time there were zero published benefits. As bad as it may look now, virtually everything offered to maintain your loyalty today was originally absent from the equation. However most improvements in loyalty programs occurred back when there was a lot more competition chasing far fewer passengers for market dominance back when securing credit was relatively easy and burning fossil fuel was relatively cheap. Outside of a few "split the difference" benefits the last round of major improvements was during the global market crash and credit crunch that followed the US housing bubble of 2008.


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