# EB Mess - 2



## andersone

for some reason the old EB Mess thread was locked.

With a trip to GPK in August,,, I still like to know if the old schedule or the new schedule of the old new schedule is in place.. or what is the scuttlebutt,,,,, or if I were going to gamble larges sums of cash which schedule should I bet on,,,,?


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## neroden

If I were to bet on the schedule in use in August:

The odds-on favorite is for the current "temporary" schedule. With the current delays.

The second favorite is some completely new and unknown adjusted schedule. With delays.

The old schedule is a longshot. It would have delays too.


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## tim49424

neroden said:


> The second favorite is some completely new and unknown adjusted schedule. With delays.


My bet is this and sooner than August.


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## andersone

At the first of the year I started buying $5 in scratch off lottery tickets, with the proceeds going to the GPK fund. By the first of April I was $120 into lottery tickets and $65 in return. Since then I have just started putting five bucks in the kitty every time I buy gas. Since then I am $70 bucks up. I might need it for gas money to drive to GPK rathter than EB.


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## D.P. Roberts

"News of the Weird":

Train 27 (6) is currently on time, and is estimated to arrive in Portland 34 minutes EARLY.

Train 7 (6) is only 18 minutes late, and is estimated to arrive in Seattle 31 minutes EARLY.

I don't know what they did, but I hope they keep doing it...


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## TraneMan

Got to keep in mind, it's a weekend, so it has a better chance at it than the week days.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


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## fairviewroad

D.P. Roberts said:


> "News of the Weird":
> 
> Train 27 (6) is currently on time, and is estimated to arrive in Portland 34 minutes EARLY.
> 
> Train 7 (6) is only 18 minutes late, and is estimated to arrive in Seattle 31 minutes EARLY.
> 
> I don't know what they did, but I hope they keep doing it...


Well, one thing they "did" was play with the schedules. These EARLY trains would have been LATE under the old schedule.

Still, it's something positive at least. And today's arrivals in PDX and SEA have a fair chance of arriving close to on time, at least by the new definition of on time.


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## SarahZ

I had read somewhere about bustitutions well into September. Are there any firm dates for this? Is it due to track work? Is it only through September, or is there a chance it will bleed into October? I tried to keep up with the other thread and failed.

Reason being, I'm thinking about taking a trip the second week of October, and if they're using buses for a portion**, I'd rather fly. I don't mind being a few hours late if I get to stay in my room the entire time.

**Portion being either 1) longer than 2-3 hours or 2) during the middle of the night.


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## jebr

SarahZ said:


> I had read somewhere about bustitutions well into September. Are there any firm dates for this? Is it due to track work? Is it only through September, or is there a chance it will bleed into October? I tried to keep up with the other thread and failed.
> 
> Reason being, I'm thinking about taking a trip the second week of October, and if they're using buses for a portion**, I'd rather fly. I don't mind being a few hours late if I get to stay in my room the entire time.
> 
> **Portion being either 1) longer than 2-3 hours or 2) during the middle of the night.


They're busing passengers beginning or ending their trip at Grand Forks, Devil's Lake, or Rugby on the westbound Builder. Through passengers will stay on the train.

EDIT: This is the "standard" bustitution. Of course things may change, but right now that's the only bustitution.


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## SarahZ

Thanks, Jeb! That helps a lot.


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## gn2276

The current schedue that is the 1:40 depature from seattle will be tru Oct 1.


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## CHamilton

Amtrak's Empire Builder line sees drop in ridership





> The Empire Builder, one of Amtrak’s most historically popular lines, is suffering as delays are causing a drop in ridership....
> 
> there has been massive growth in freight transportation nationally, which includes oil shipments from North Dakota. The increase in traffic has caused significant delays for the Empire Builder as it makes its way through Montana and North Dakota.
> 
> Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari said it’s been a frustrating year and ridership is hurting on the Empire Builder. He said late trains are also more expensive to operate.
> “We’re giving complimentary food and beverage service to try and apologize,” said Magliari. “The train crews themselves are getting into overtime because their trains are running longer than they’re supposed to run. So it drives costs up astronomically when trains are greatly delayed. It turns some one-time passengers into never-again passengers.”
> Magliari said while Amtrak normally pays host railroads like BNSF an incentive for good performance, Amtrak has not been making those payments lately.


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## montana mike

On my last trip on the Empire Builder a couple weeks ago even the Sleepers were not full and the coaches had only about 50% of the seats occupied, even less so after Williston. On that trip we were 10 hours late btw.

:-(


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## neroden

Good time to rotate some coaches and sleepers through Beech Grove for updates? :-(


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## jis

I understand Beech Grove currently is running way behind schedule on their currently scheduled work. In contrast Bear appears to be ahead of the game.


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## Bob Dylan

Wonder if Beech Grove is having trouble hiring workers since there is so much work in the Oil Boom States (the Hi-*Line and Texas)and the Construction Industry in Texas?? I'm not familiar with Indiana's economy or employment status?

And do they just use Amtrak Employees and/or Contract Workers?


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## oldtimer

jimhudson said:


> Wonder if Beech Grove is having trouble hiring workers since there is so much work in the Oil Boom States (the Hi-*Line and Texas)and the Construction Industry in Texas?? I'm not familiar with Indiana's economy or employment status?
> 
> And do they just use Amtrak Employees and/or Contract Workers?


One of Amtrak's problems is that there are massive retirements of employees that were hired prior to 1981. Amtrak like all railroads has its employees covered by the Railroad Retirement system. This system is basically government run but funded by the railroads and railroad employees. The railroads and the employees pay a significant amount more than Social Security, but the benefits are higher and if you have 360 months of service and 60 years of age you are able to collect a full annuity.

This being said the pre-81 employees have been reaching the "magic numbers" needed to retire and there is no incentive for those effected to stay. Many jobs were lost due to attrition with no replacements, more work was expected from fewer employees, fewer spare parts were stocked in the storeroom (inventory costs money and does not make money until it is needed) making everyone's job more difficult not to mention that Chicago just went through one of its worst winters ever. Morale is very low, decades of knowledge is being lost and no one planned ahead as budgets were being cut with no regard for the future.


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## jimhudson

Thanks, Institutional Memory is a key in every well functioning organization!

And with all the unemployment in the Midwest and the Rust Belt I'm wondering if Amtrak needs to Recruit harder and speed up the hiring process, it seems to be slow as molasses!


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## neroden

And yet Bear seems to be doing fine.

If there are a lot of retirements, new recruitment becomes important. I'm wondering if Beech Grove is in a problem location for hiring. I would *not* think that Indianapolis would be an attractive location to relocate to for a young person interested in maintaining trains; it barely has train service! (Ahem.)


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## montana mike

Empire Builder "troubles" back to the normal SNAFUs this AM- #8 just under 6 hours behind in MN, #7 in WA over 5 hours late and #27 suffering a service disruption. Bummer.


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## D.P. Roberts

Strangely enough, for my upcoming trip the EB sleepers are entirely sold out, but there are 8 or more roomettes on the CS during the same time frame.


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## D.P. Roberts

montana mike said:


> Empire Builder "troubles" back to the normal SNAFUs this AM- #8 just under 6 hours behind in MN, #7 in WA over 5 hours late and #27 suffering a service disruption. Bummer.


Does anyone know what the "service disruption" is for #27 that was supposed to arrive in Portland on Wednesday morning? Amtrak's status map still shows it parked somewhere north of Pasco.


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## TraneMan

D.P. Roberts said:


> Strangely enough, for my upcoming trip the EB sleepers are entirely sold out, but there are 8 or more roomettes on the CS during the same time frame.


On ours, it's the same out, return home, there's 2 room left.


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## EB_OBS

D.P. Roberts said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Empire Builder "troubles" back to the normal SNAFUs this AM- #8 just under 6 hours behind in MN, #7 in WA over 5 hours late and #27 suffering a service disruption. Bummer.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what the "service disruption" is for #27 that was supposed to arrive in Portland on Wednesday morning? Amtrak's status map still shows it parked somewhere north of Pasco.
Click to expand...

BNSF track gang had a construction window and with #7 so late, #27 missed it and had to bus to PDX.

The equipment finally left SPK at 2:15pm. At 6:30pm it hadn't even made it thru Cheney, WA. Finally arrived into PDX 4:08am.

There's a lot of construction and expansion going on right now between SPK and PSC.


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## montana mike

And the construction efforts in MT and ND have ramped up big time. My BNSF guy said the 5-6 hour delays being seen this week thru this area should be likely much of the summer until late October.

:-(


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## SarahZ

montana mike said:


> And the construction efforts in MT and ND have ramped up big time. My BNSF guy said the 5-6 hour delays being seen this week thru this area should be likely much of the summer *until late October.*
> 
> :-(


:angry:

I'll bring snacks.


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## yarrow

montana mike said:


> And the construction efforts in MT and ND have ramped up big time. My BNSF guy said the 5-6 hour delays being seen this week thru this area should be likely much of the summer until late October.
> 
> :-(


so how longs will amtrak keep the reestablished connection of eb 27 to cs 11 in pdx?


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## EB_OBS

yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the construction efforts in MT and ND have ramped up big time. My BNSF guy said the 5-6 hour delays being seen this week thru this area should be likely much of the summer until late October.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> so how longs will amtrak keep the reestablished connection of eb 27 to cs 11 in pdx?
Click to expand...

It's a myth. They are not. I have it first hand from the District Manager that Amtrak is not footing the bill for missed connections in PDX. Every effort is being made to ensure that all passengers with a connection understand this.


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## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the construction efforts in MT and ND have ramped up big time. My BNSF guy said the 5-6 hour delays being seen this week thru this area should be likely much of the summer until late October.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> so how longs will amtrak keep the reestablished connection of eb 27 to cs 11 in pdx?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a myth. They are not. I have it first hand from the District Manager that Amtrak is not footing the bill for missed connections in PDX. Every effort is being made to ensure that all passengers with a connection understand this.
Click to expand...

ok, hold on a minute. amtrak will book the connection of 27 to 11. but it's not a guaranteed connection? as of last week, we booked an october trip with the connection and were told we could no longer book and overnight in pdx(it's an agr redemption)so we booked spk-lax without the overnight in pdx.. what sort of bs is this? EB_OBS, you are the pride of amtrak but your bosses are self serving bs artists


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## yarrow

yarrow said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the construction efforts in MT and ND have ramped up big time. My BNSF guy said the 5-6 hour delays being seen this week thru this area should be likely much of the summer until late October.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> so how longs will amtrak keep the reestablished connection of eb 27 to cs 11 in pdx?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a myth. They are not. I have it first hand from the District Manager that Amtrak is not footing the bill for missed connections in PDX. Every effort is being made to ensure that all passengers with a connection understand this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ok, hold on a minute. amtrak will book the connection of 27 to 11. but it's not a guaranteed connection? as of last week, we booked an october trip with the connection and were told we could no longer book and overnight in pdx(it's an agr redemption)so we booked spk-lax without the overnight in pdx.. what sort of bs is this? EB_OBS, you are the pride of amtrak but your bosses are self serving bs artists
Click to expand...

i just called amtrak and spoke with an agent, asked her if 27 to 11 was a guaranteed connection and what that meant, and was told it meant amtrak would do whatever it took to get you to your destination and if that included overnight lodging in pdx that amtrak would cover it


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## tim49424

TraneMan said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Strangely enough, for my upcoming trip the EB sleepers are entirely sold out, but there are 8 or more roomettes on the CS during the same time frame.
> 
> 
> 
> On ours, it's the same out, return home, there's 2 room left.
Click to expand...

One left on our one-way trip on the EB to PDX in July.


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## montana mike

With average arrival delays into PDX well over 3 hours over the past month or so this could be a challenge making the connection, but if Amtrak is still on the hook for a night in Portland, other than arriving a day late at your destination I guess things could be worse.


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## yarrow

montana mike said:


> With average arrival delays into PDX well over 3 hours over the past month or so this could be a challenge making the connection, but if Amtrak is still on the hook for a night in Portland, other than arriving a day late at your destination I guess things could be worse.


yeah, but as i understood the above post of EB_OBS, who, imho, ought to know amtrak is not on the hook for a night in pdx. i put much more confidence in what he has to say than a random agent


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## EB_OBS

Yeah I don't know why they are allowing the connection again on a single reservation.

I can tell you that I've already been involved in two situations where we had to contact the train and ensure that passengers boarding, who had connections in PDX, were told by the conductors before they got on that if they missed the connection they would be on their own.

I'll get word to the District Manager that agents are still telling passengers the connection is guaranteed. It is my understanding that it is not.


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## JayPea

EB_OBS said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Empire Builder "troubles" back to the normal SNAFUs this AM- #8 just under 6 hours behind in MN, #7 in WA over 5 hours late and #27 suffering a service disruption. Bummer.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what the "service disruption" is for #27 that was supposed to arrive in Portland on Wednesday morning? Amtrak's status map still shows it parked somewhere north of Pasco.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BNSF track gang had a construction window and with #7 so late, #27 missed it and had to bus to PDX.
> 
> The equipment finally left SPK at 2:15pm. At 6:30pm it hadn't even made it thru Cheney, WA. Finally arrived into PDX 4:08am.
> 
> There's a lot of construction and expansion going on right now between SPK and PSC.
Click to expand...

Over 4 hours and the train hadn't made it through Cheney yet? :blink: I can walk that distance that fast! Of course it helps that it's downhill between Spokane and Cheney. 

I'm taking #7 out of Spokane a week from Monday to Seattle and hoping that the EB isn't too badly delayed due to it being the weekend. #7 this past Monday was just nine minutes late into Seattle. This after being 32 minutes EARLY the day before and 10 minutes EARLY the day after. The last couple of days have been back to "normal" (hours late) but this morning #7 left Whitefish "only" 2 hours and 20 minutes late. I'm not making any connections in Seattle, though, except with my bed at my hotel, so I guess it doesn't matter that much. Besides, If it's even a little late, I will get to see all that grand scenery between Spokane and Wenatchee!


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## montana mike

West bound appears to do somewhat better that eastbound (#8 this AM still in ND is now just under 6 hours late-arrgh!!). I believe this is because of both freight and construction scheduling in MT and ND. My BNSF guy's estimate of 5-6 hour delays on the eastbound trains this spring has been (unfortunately) reasonably accurate. This timing even puts the connection to the LSL into jeopardy on some nights. I just don't see any other connections being made with other LD trains in CHI for a long time-bummer. I used to connect on a regular basis, but now I do a train/fly combo on most trips.


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## EB_OBS

Well another derailment, this time east of St. Cloud, MN. ETO, 8:00PM CT.

#7 had already made it west of there before the derailment. Unfortunately #8 will have to hold 'til the tracks open.


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## Joe F

EB_OBS said:


> Well another derailment, this time east of St. Cloud, MN. ETO, 8:00PM CT.
> 
> #7 had already made it west of there before the derailment. Unfortunately #8 will have to hold 'til the tracks open.


The derailment has also caused cancellation of Northstar Commuter Rail service today, which runs on BNSF tracks between Minneapolis and Big Lake.

http://www.startribune.com/local/263007261.html

It looks like #8 is showing a service disruption between Grand Forks and Fargo. If they are being held because of the derailment, is it possible for the EB to detour on the Willmar and Wayzata subs between Dilworth (Fargo) and Minneapolis instead?


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## montana mike

Wow, Hollywood couldn't write a script stranger than what has happened to this route--amazing!

:-(


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## andersone

I was worried about getting dinner on 7 ,,, maybe I will be getting breakfast as well,,,,, before it rolls into GPK


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## aurbo

looks like 8 is taking the Wilmar route - however is currently stopped south of Morehead, as of 0940am.


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## MrFSS

andersone said:


> I was worried about getting dinner on 7 ,,, maybe I will be getting breakfast as well,,,,, before it rolls into GPK


If they have any food left!


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## CHamilton

aurbo said:


> looks like 8 is taking the Wilmar route - however is currently stopped south of Morehead, as of 0940am.


Via the Empire Builder group on Facebook:



> BNSF derailed a freight between Elk River and Ramsey, MN this morning. Both mains on the Staples Sub are blocked. All North star trains canceled this morning.


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## EB_OBS

aurbo said:


> looks like 8 is taking the Wilmar route - however is currently stopped south of Morehead, as of 0940am.


Yep, just waiting for BNSF pilots on-duty and expect to take up to 5-6 additional hours according to BNSF.


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## EB_OBS

OH, and did I forget to mention that #8(12) had to set out its lounge car last night at SPK due to a broken brake pipe? Subway and KFC all the way to CHI.

What's next?


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## D.P. Roberts

Back to the issue of "guaranteed connections"...

It seems like some agents are saying that many EB connections are guaranteed, and that some are not. I thought that any connection to (the EB or any other train) booked as one ticket was a guaranteed connection. If you want to book a connection that is too short, Amtrak requires you to book two tickets.

They've made exceptions to this - allegedly contacting everyone who had valid connections to tell them that their connections were no longer valid. So, it seems like if you bought a ticket for that connection, and Amtrak hasn't called you to tell you that your connection isn't valid, then the responsibility is on them, right?


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## yarrow

D.P. Roberts said:


> Back to the issue of "guaranteed connections"...
> 
> It seems like some agents are saying that many EB connections are guaranteed, and that some are not. I thought that any connection to (the EB or any other train) booked as one ticket was a guaranteed connection. If you want to book a connection that is too short, Amtrak requires you to book two tickets.
> 
> They've made exceptions to this - allegedly contacting everyone who had valid connections to tell them that their connections were no longer valid. So, it seems like if you bought a ticket for that connection, and Amtrak hasn't called you to tell you that your connection isn't valid, then the responsibility is on them, right?


right. also are you interested in the brooklyn bridge or some prime land in florida?


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## Bob Dylan

EB_OBS said:


> OH, and did I forget to mention that #8(12) had to set out its lounge car last night at SPK due to a broken brake pipe? Subway and KFC all the way to CHI.
> 
> What's next?


Bummer to have no lounge on such a long trip but KFC and Subway Chow is better than most of the stuff sold @ New York Prices in the Cafe!
Does this mean the Coach Pax get to eat Free?

And thanks for your Posts, Boots on the Ground is always best since Reliable Info from Amtrak is rare! Keep us posted, Amtrak needs more like you!


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## Just-Thinking-51

Lounge car down, did they take over a table in the dinner and sell (dry) snacks? Something like the Denver to Seattle Pioneer use to do.

Also I get very nervous about the temp control of KFC products, when getting placed on the train. Has anyone been lucky enought to get this service. Was the food still hot or a bit cool.


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## andersone

how about a consist Q ..scrape some of my memory rust off,,, . my reservation says 7 going out so I will be on the sleeper either one or two in front of the diner (730/731) ,,, on the way back it tells me I am on 28 so that means I will be on the back end, (2630) second from last - PDX coach the only thing behind me? This sound right?

I also did find a list of the Superliner ][ state "Names"


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## yarrow

andersone said:


> how about a consist Q ..scrape some of my memory rust off,,, . my reservation says 7 going out so I will be on the sleeper either one or two in front of the diner (730/731) ,,, on the way back it tells me I am on 28 so that means I will be on the back end, (2630) second from last - PDX coach the only thing behind me? This sound right?
> 
> I also did find a list of the Superliner ][ state "Names"


the portland sleeper is the last car on the eb. the rear window of the car is a great picture taking spot if it's clean(good luck with that)


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## tim49424

yarrow said:


> andersone said:
> 
> 
> 
> how about a consist Q ..scrape some of my memory rust off,,, . my reservation says 7 going out so I will be on the sleeper either one or two in front of the diner (730/731) ,,, on the way back it tells me I am on 28 so that means I will be on the back end, (2630) second from last - PDX coach the only thing behind me? This sound right?
> 
> I also did find a list of the Superliner ][ state "Names"
> 
> 
> 
> the portland sleeper is the last car on the eb. the rear window of the car is a great picture taking spot if it's clean(good luck with that)
Click to expand...

Normally the Portland sleeper is the last car on the EB. However, last year when I was on #8, they added a car in MSP. Two years ago, on #7, a vehicle hit the baggage car, rendering it useless and it was towed by the train to SEA.

Also, when there are private cars on the EB, they usually are at the end of the train, behind the Portland sleeper.


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## TraneMan

Ouch, looks like another #8 going to be super late..


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## IHC

#8(11) is currently 18 hours late into Chicago! #8(12) is suddenly 12 hours late and is still in North Dakota!


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## montana mike

I guess they couldn't have 8(12) catch up or pass 8(11)?

I understand the "new" schedule will read--The Empire Builder will arrive at the various stations along its route at some point in the next several days, The good Lord willing and the creek don't rise, please bring extra water, pillows and snacks!!! Enjoy the journey......

:-((


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## neroden

aurbo said:


> looks like 8 is taking the Wilmar route - however is currently stopped south of Morehead, as of 0940am.


Wow, rare mileage. One thing I'll say for BNSF, they're good about finding detour routes for Amtrak.

I always thought the Wilmar route was the better passenger route in principle, and it's now the only route which could stop in both Minneapolis *and* St. Paul... ah well.


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## PRae_Train_

I'll be on the EB eastbound late August, looking towards the adventure.

Coming back to MA, what are my best options if we arrive CHI too late to connect with 48/448? Hotels? Does Amtrak help me with that at all?


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## zephyr17

If you are booked on a guaranteed connection, Amtrak will provide hotel and money for meals and cab fare as well as replacement transportation. There will either be Chicago Passenger Services representatives boarding up the line like St. Paul or La Crosse with arranbements, or you will be directed to the Passenger Services office in CUS upon arrival.

I have gone through that drill more times than I'd like, but Amtrak is really quite good about it.


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## jis

Good thing that neither the OTOL Railfest nor the AU Gathering depends on the Empire Builder this year. The OTOL folks are having enough worries with the California Zephyr and the Lake Shore Limited as is.


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## pianocat

zephyr17 said:


> If you are booked on a guaranteed connection, Amtrak will provide hotel and money for meals and cab fare as well as replacement transportation. There will either be Chicago Passenger Services representatives boarding up the line like St. Paul or La Crosse with arranbements, or you will be directed to the Passenger Services office in CUS upon arrival.
> 
> I have gone through that drill more times than I'd like, but Amtrak is really quite good about it.


Say the connection was guaranteed at time of booking....can Amtrak UNguarantee a connection [and therefore, release their responsibility for taking care of the passenger left stranded] at will?


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## NW cannonball

neroden said:


> aurbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> looks like 8 is taking the Wilmar route - however is currently stopped south of Morehead, as of 0940am.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, rare mileage. One thing I'll say for BNSF, they're good about finding detour routes for Amtrak.
> 
> I always thought the Wilmar route was the better passenger route in principle, and it's now the only route which could stop in both Minneapolis *and* St. Paul... ah well.
Click to expand...

Last time I rode the Willmar route was late 60's on the then GN EB. I guess we did 90mph part way, making up time when the EB (then GN) came out of a blizzard in Montana.

Now, TaT showed the EB doing 40+mph on the Willmar sub. Rare mileage, yes. Good that the BNSF has an alternate route - BUT - OMG, so sloooow.


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## Green Maned Lion

pianocat said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are booked on a guaranteed connection, Amtrak will provide hotel and money for meals and cab fare as well as replacement transportation. There will either be Chicago Passenger Services representatives boarding up the line like St. Paul or La Crosse with arranbements, or you will be directed to the Passenger Services office in CUS upon arrival.
> 
> I have gone through that drill more times than I'd like, but Amtrak is really quite good about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Say the connection was guaranteed at time of booking....can Amtrak UNguarantee a connection [and therefore, release their responsibility for taking care of the passenger left stranded] at will?
Click to expand...

I think they are required to give notice.


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## pianocat

Hopefully adequate notice, like, before the passenger's trip even begins! Still haven't heard anything regarding my EB to CONO guaranteed connection in August. Wonder if they have to lose x amount of $$ before they start axing connections.


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## yarrow

we had a guaranteed connection eb to cl last year which was missed. it was impossible to get reliable info on the train as to what would be done. when we got to chi 8 hours late we were bused to an outlying hotel(at amtrak's expense) and bused back to the station the next morning for the next day's train. your room is not guaranteed however. you may be offered coach if nothing else is available and you would be compensated for that after the trip. 2 years ago we were connecting eb to cl and arrived into chi 14 hours late. had been told by our conductor and by customer relations we would be lodged in chi and put on that evening's train. when we arrived we were herded into the metro lounge and told to proceed upstairs to our bus for a 16 hour bus ride to dc. arriving there at 1 in the morning.


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## PRae_Train

Thank you, Zephyr.

Amtrak has been pretty good to me in the 5 years I've been traveling cross-country. I've taken the SWC, CS, and CZ, but never the EB.

This time I'm flying to Seattle, staying a week, then taking EB for the return to MA. I'm not in a hurry for the trip home, and if the train is running very late (if????), may get to see some parts of the north in daylight that would "normally" be at night.

I appreciate this forum so much. Thanks to you and all for sharing their expertise and experiences.


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## pianocat

" had been told by our conductor and by customer relations we would be lodged in chi and put on that evening's train. when we arrived we were herded into the metro lounge and told to proceed upstairs to our bus for a 16 hour bus ride to dc."

YIKES! bait and switch  What will be, will be......the only healthy attitude to have where this route is concerned.


----------



## Guest

I saw 8 (11) go through Willmar, MN about 4:00 pm yesterday. We get the Willmar paper and there was an article today in there about the detour even showing a family from southern Minnesota getting off at the Willmar depot to get picked up by family, nice to see Amtrak be accommodating. They were probably some of the first revenue passengers in years to get off in Willmar. If I had the time I bet I could have sweet talked to conductor into letting me ride from Willmar to MSP, of course I'd be willing to pay for the ride if they could figure out how charge that. The train left Willmar about 4:00 pm and got into MSP at 6:48 pm so not too bad a run time and actually not too much slower than driving.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Hopefully you called Customer Relations and received a Nice Voucher which you deserved good for future travel!!!


----------



## yarrow

jimhudson said:


> Hopefully you called Customer Relations and received a Nice Voucher which you deserved good for future travel!!!


jim, don't know if you are referring to our adventures or not but it is my theory that after one paid(or agr) eb trip a person could then travel the eb forever on vouchers they could recieve for each subsequent trip


----------



## Bob Dylan

yarrow said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully you called Customer Relations and received a Nice Voucher which you deserved good for future travel!!!
> 
> 
> 
> jim, don't know if you are referring to our adventures or not but it is my theory that after one paid(or agr) eb trip a person could then travel the eb forever on vouchers they could recieve for each subsequent trip
Click to expand...

So True unfortunately!


----------



## dlagrua

I know someone who was on the EB to Portland last Wednesday. The EB #27 was terminated at Spokane and the EB went on to Seattle to arrive 7 1/2 hours late. My friend and his daughter were put on a crowded bus like a sardine, for the remainder of the trip. They experienced an uncomfortable ride on the full bus and he was really pissed off. The reason for the cancellation of the #27 into Portland was track work. The train was split and the sightseer lounge a sleeping car and two coaches were left behind. The two engines remained on the #7 to SEA.


----------



## JayPea

It was due to track work, all right, but only because the EB was late enough into Spokane that it missed its window. The train did go on, sans passengers, arriving in Portland after 4 AM, 16 1/2 hours late. I don't think your friend would have liked arriving into Portland that late either.


----------



## elliewen

First time poster - sorry if this question is not in the right place!

I am taking the EB from CHI to SEA next month. Since it is often running 6-8 hours late, I assume we will arrive in late afternoon or evening instead of at 11:55am. If the train is delayed, do we get lunch? And if it is extremely delayed, do we get another dinner as well? Just want to know how much food to pack! Thanks!


----------



## andersone

and maybe dinner too !! - As long as there is food left they will feed you,,, and then its KFC or Amtrak's meals to eat,,,, I will be on the EB in August and don't mind being late at all,,,,, but I am only going to GPK


----------



## JayPea

elliewen said:


> First time poster - sorry if this question is not in the right place!
> 
> I am taking the EB from CHI to SEA next month. Since it is often running 6-8 hours late, I assume we will arrive in late afternoon or evening instead of at 11:55am. If the train is delayed, do we get lunch? And if it is extremely delayed, do we get another dinner as well? Just want to know how much food to pack! Thanks!



Actually, westbound, the timekeeping for the EB isn't too bad, relatively speaking. Last week there was a stretch of three days where it was early into Seattle twice, and late by nine minutes the third. WIth the odd exception, lately 2 hours late is about average. Yesterday's, for instance, was an hour and 20 minutes late, and today's has just left Spokane about 2 hours and 15 minutes down, and usually makes up time between Spokane and Seattle. But, then again, this is the EB we're talking about so anything could happen!


----------



## yarrow

what, mr andersone, do you base your information on? i have been told by obs that the policy is that when the train is more than 6 hours late and there is time before arriving at the terminus that passengers will be fed. that has been our experience a couple times on the cz and several times on the eb. unless, of course, the 6 hour late mark is at night. then you arrive hungry


----------



## GN ROCKY

HOPING TO RIDE #7 WB THRU NORTH DAKOTA ON THE SURREY CUTOFF JULY 3RD-4TH..IS THIS STILL THE REROUTE? LIKE TO KNOW


----------



## EB_OBS

#7 is running on the KO sub-division, while #8 is still making all stops on the Devils' Lake sub.


----------



## EB_OBS

#7 is running on the KO sub-division, while #8 is still making all stops on the Devils' Lake sub.

BNSF is running traffic one-way between Fargo and Minot, notwithstanding track failure and/or derailments.


----------



## EB_OBS

If the arrival time will be more than four hours past the time a meal period normally begins then there is an extra meal served.


----------



## montana mike

I see #7 in ND lost 3 hours between Stanley and Williston-Ouch!!! Now over 8 hours behind schedule. Looks like these pax will get breakfast lunch and dinner before reaching SEA late tomorrow.

:-((


----------



## Joe F

Doing some work on the US-63 bridge in Red Wing today (same location as my profile photo) and saw a 5+ hour late EB #8 depart around 2:15 PM. From my vantage point, it looked like the train had two dome lounge cars coupled together in the middle of the train (maybe the one that was bad-ordered out west was returning to CHI?). There was also a PV dome car tacked onto the rear.


----------



## andersone

Well I have some great news,,,, the first leg of my GPK journey is the 700 mile drive from here to LSE,,,,, I need to hook up with the twin sister of my former mother in law by marriage ... I was unable to attend the funeral of her late husband of like 60 years because of a hip replacement,,, we finally found her today, still in Ferryville ,,, going strong and happy as a clam we are coming to see here,,, the lived right next to the old NP tracks,,, the town was famous for a century as the largest town in the world with only one street,,, until some guy from Chicago bought some ground on the bluff and built a street ,,,, I love it when a plan comes together (and in the old days I would have caught the EB in Prarrie De Chein,,, much closer than LSE) and would I have looked like a sap if she had moved to like Florida,,, but then again I have no compunction driving to GBB to catch the CZ,,,,,


----------



## Romany16

Currently sitting in the first class lounge at SPUD. #27 is now due at 1:01 am.

No coffee or soda or snacks in the lounge...

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## SarahZ

Romany16 said:


> Currently sitting in the first class lounge at SPUD. #27 is now due at 1:01 am.
> 
> No coffee or soda or snacks in the lounge...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


There are some restaurants along University Ave. McDonald's probably isn't optimal, but they have coffee, and most locations are open 24 hours now.

Also, there is a Jimmy John's nearby. They deliver _quickly_. You could get an awesome sandwich, chips, a pickle, and caffeinated soda. 

Here's their number: (651) 646-4777


----------



## NW cannonball

Waal. we all know that the Amtrak EB is more or less unpredictable these days.

BUT - some of my relations have chosen to ride the EB SEA-MSP regardless, cause they want the calming effect on their way to a memorial service for my (ex)-mother-in-law. And 10 hours more or less -- is ten hours more or less.

If the train is too late - they'll be sleeping on my floor - not a problem.

And I'm not saying anything against my MIL.

For some purposes, the 3-11 hour delay means nothing.

But if you need connect in CHI - the EB is NOT the way to go.


----------



## NW cannonball

Romany16 said:


> Currently sitting in the first class lounge at SPUD. #27 is now due at 1:01 am.
> 
> No coffee or soda or snacks in the lounge...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


It was 25 years ago that I lived in downtown Saint Paul. I now live on the newly opened Green Line, but still don't know downtown Saint Paul after 10 PM. Now, I don't know anything but the really noisy metal bar near the station. Not many late evening places near the station.

Thinking that Ispolkom and Jebr and all might have ideas - but honestly - the best eating places in downtown St Paul close before the EB arrives westbound, or open after eastbound.- like Tanpopo or Ruam Mit

Thinking that, actually, I should get down to downtown and find out what's happening there.

Walking downtown Saint Paul is really really safe - maybe go look at the river? Order a pizza? Walk 4 blocks to the Superamerica and get some refirigerated sanwiches? There's a "Senor (something) nearby that I saw from the Green Line that might have a late kitchen and drinks. And maybe the "3?hat? bar on 5th"

Anyhow, don't worry wandering downtown Saint Paul on a Monday.

Just be at the station when the late train pulls in


----------



## NW cannonball

SarahZ said:


> Romany16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Currently sitting in the first class lounge at SPUD. #27 is now due at 1:01 am.
> 
> No coffee or soda or snacks in the lounge...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> There are some restaurants along University Ave. McDonald's probably isn't optimal, but they have coffee, and most locations are open 24 hours now.
> 
> Also, there is a Jimmy John's nearby. They deliver _quickly_. You could get an awesome sandwich, chips, a pickle, and caffeinated soda.
> 
> Here's their number: (651) 646-4777
Click to expand...

Sarah, University Avenue is no longer relevant. We have SPUD! And local me has no clue what's available there. Sorry


----------



## Romany16

SarahZ said:


> There are some restaurants along University Ave. McDonald's probably isn't optimal, but they have coffee, and most locations are open 24 hours now.
> 
> Also, there is a Jimmy John's nearby. They deliver _quickly_. You could get an awesome sandwich, chips, a pickle, and caffeinated soda.
> 
> Here's their number: (651) 646-4777


Thanks Sarah! I have a friend picking up coffee at McD's on University right now!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jebr

Romany16 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some restaurants along University Ave. McDonald's probably isn't optimal, but they have coffee, and most locations are open 24 hours now.
> 
> Also, there is a Jimmy John's nearby. They deliver _quickly_. You could get an awesome sandwich, chips, a pickle, and caffeinated soda.
> 
> Here's their number: (651) 646-4777
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Sarah! I have a friend picking up coffee at McD's on University right now!!!
> 
> 
> 
> color]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Take the light rail to Capitol (Capital?) and Rice. There's a McDonald's one or two blocks from there, as well as a White Castle.


----------



## rocknviking

Or go to the Kelly Depot bar located across the street right (or next to the station) on Kellogg. Great burgers and sandwiches along with a great variety of beverages.


----------



## NW cannonball

rocknviking said:


> Or go to the Kelly Depot bar located across the street right (or next to the station) on Kellogg. Great burgers and sandwiches along with a great variety of beverages.


If you have earplugs, ok.

The places up on Uno (the cabbies call it UNO, the cops call it UNI) - it's at least 20 minutes each way, Plus whatever time you spend ordering and eating. If the train is real late, no problem. Otherwise, an hour.


----------



## NW cannonball

There are also places on W Seventh, take the #54 limited stop from SPUD to, but not beyond, Chestnut near the XCL center. -- Cossetta, Patrick O - something (who cares generic "Irish" drinking place). Closer than UNO and better.


----------



## SarahZ

NW cannonball said:


> Sarah, University Avenue is no longer relevant. We have SPUD! And local me has no clue what's available there. Sorry


Then Google Maps lied to me. Perhaps they haven't updated the location yet. I typed "St. Paul Union Depot" in the search. It gave me "Christos Greek Restaurant", but I figured that was a fluke since the train icon was there, along with train tracks and a mouse pop-up with the EB schedule. /shrug


----------



## NW cannonball

SarahZ said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah, University Avenue is no longer relevant. We have SPUD! And local me has no clue what's available there. Sorry
> 
> 
> 
> Then Google Maps lied to me. Perhaps they haven't updated the location yet. I typed "St. Paul Union Depot" in the search. It gave me "Christos Greek Restaurant", but I figured that was a fluke since the train icon was there, along with train tracks and a mouse pop-up with the EB schedule. /shrug
Click to expand...

Yeah, Christos is at SPUD, but never when a train arrives (they don't open until 11 am) . And close before 10PM.

Us locals have a lot to learn, what with the new station and the crazy variation in run-times.

Don't doubt Google, but finding anywhere near SPUD when waiting -- used to know when Amtrak at Midway - now - with random delays -

I'm no local expert anymore.

If people can walk a mile or two, I'll tell them what to look for, and places to eat. If they have a day, I'll send them to the Hill House tour.

But right now, i have no clue with the strange delays.

Got an ex-wife and son arriving sometime from the west at different times by train to MSP - what time -- who knows?

Just put them on the new Green Line (LIKE IT) and we'll meet somewhere.


----------



## SarahZ

NW cannonball said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah, University Avenue is no longer relevant. We have SPUD! And local me has no clue what's available there. Sorry
> 
> 
> 
> Then Google Maps lied to me. Perhaps they haven't updated the location yet. I typed "St. Paul Union Depot" in the search. It gave me "Christos Greek Restaurant", but I figured that was a fluke since the train icon was there, along with train tracks and a mouse pop-up with the EB schedule. /shrug
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, Christos is at SPUD, but never when a train arrives (they don't open until 11 am) .
Click to expand...

Right, but what I'm saying is that I searched for restaurants near SPUD, and a ton of stuff popped up on University Ave.

Maybe I misunderstood you? I thought you meant I had the wrong location when you said University Ave was no longer relevant because you have SPUD now.


----------



## NW cannonball

SarahZ said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah, University Avenue is no longer relevant. We have SPUD! And local me has no clue what's available there. Sorry
> 
> 
> 
> Then Google Maps lied to me. Perhaps they haven't updated the location yet. I typed "St. Paul Union Depot" in the search. It gave me "Christos Greek Restaurant", but I figured that was a fluke since the train icon was there, along with train tracks and a mouse pop-up with the EB schedule. /shrug
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, Christos is at SPUD, but never when a train arrives (they don't open until 11 am) .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right, but what I'm saying is that I searched for restaurants near SPUD, and a ton of stuff popped up on University Ave.
> 
> Maybe I misunderstood you? I thought you meant I had the wrong location when you said University Ave was no longer relevant because you have SPUD now.
Click to expand...

What I'm trying to say is -

The restaurants showing at University and Rice - are - one McD and one White Castle. All the ethnic restaurants west on University are not open Empire Builder hours.

There might be a questionable hotel restaurant somewhere near there.

There is some confusion with the Amtrak move to SPUD, and the opening of the Green Line.

University Avenue, even at Rice, is a LONG uphill walk from SPUD, me, I would dine downtown, even at Mickey's, or on west 7th, or in Lowertown, rather than try to find a decent place on UNO during EB hours.

The former advice about University avenue near the old Midway Aamtrak station is obsolete.

University Avenue near the Capitol and Rice - not where I choose to hang out.


----------



## SarahZ

Gotcha.  I'll stick to Chicago questions from now on.


----------



## NW cannonball

Gotcha also. And I hope you mean "answering Chicago and Michigan questions" which we all know you do so well, and for which I have thanks to give.

As for asking questions -- keep on asking, seldom can I help, often you have helped - thanks


----------



## TraneMan

Romany16 said:


> Currently sitting in the first class lounge at SPUD. #27 is now due at 1:01 am.
> 
> No coffee or soda or snacks in the lounge...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


When I was there for the Nat. Train Day, I peeked in there and looks like there's a counter for this.. Guess it's for something else..

Where are you heading?


----------



## SarahZ

NW cannonball said:


> Gotcha also. And I hope you mean "answering Chicago and Michigan questions" which we all know you do so well, and for which I have thanks to give.
> 
> As for asking questions -- keep on asking, seldom can I help, often you have helped - thanks


Nobody asks Michigan questions. 

Well, maybe once in a great while, but certainly not as often as Chicago.

Anyway, we're off-topic. :hi:


----------



## NW cannonball

Romany16 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some restaurants along University Ave. McDonald's probably isn't optimal, but they have coffee, and most locations are open 24 hours now.
> 
> Also, there is a Jimmy John's nearby. They deliver _quickly_. You could get an awesome sandwich, chips, a pickle, and caffeinated soda.
> 
> Here's their number: (651) 646-4777
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Sarah! I have a friend picking up coffee at McD's on University right now!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Looks like one of the worst westbound delays ever. Looks like the train is past Winona and 4+ hours late

Walk up to 7th and Saint Peter. get a Sputnik burger at Mickey's, wander late night Saint Paul -- no fear. Walk and look at the river. Just be back at SPUD when the train finally arrives.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Lounge car down, did they take over a table in the dinner and sell (dry) snacks? Something like the Denver to Seattle Pioneer use to do.
> 
> Also I get very nervous about the temp control of KFC products, when getting placed on the train. Has anyone been lucky enought to get this service. Was the food still hot or a bit cool.


I just got off 27 (14) in PDX tonight, around 8:00 pm - about 9 hours late. We left Chicago 4 hours late due to delays in getting the previous day's train turned in time, then lost several hours near Wiliston, then several more hours near Pasco.

When we left Spokane at 10:30 am, we were told we'd get KFC for lunch at Pasco, which was then estimated to be around 1:00 pm. However, due to the delays we didn't get to Pasco until about 3:30 pm.

I assume that the local KFC must have delivered the food roughly on time, because by the time we got to Pasco everything (coleslaw, mashed potatoes, & chicken) was all room temperature.


----------



## NW cannonball

D.P. Roberts said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lounge car down, did they take over a table in the dinner and sell (dry) snacks? Something like the Denver to Seattle Pioneer use to do.
> 
> Also I get very nervous about the temp control of KFC products, when getting placed on the train. Has anyone been lucky enought to get this service. Was the food still hot or a bit cool.
> 
> 
> 
> I just got off 27 (14) in PDX tonight, around 8:00 pm - about 9 hours late. We left Chicago 4 hours late due to delays in getting the previous day's train turned in time, then lost several hours near Wiliston, then several more hours near Pasco.
> 
> When we left Spokane at 10:30 am, we were told we'd get KFC for lunch at Pasco, which was then estimated to be around 1:00 pm. However, due to the delays we didn't gtheet to Pasco until about 3:30 pm.
> 
> I assume that the local KFC must have delivered the food roughly on time, because by the time we got to Pasco everything (coleslaw, mashed potatoes, & chicken) w. as all room temperature.
Click to expand...

Veh, and sheeesh.

Those of who rely on the EB to get to-from our dear relatives - well - we no longer figure getting there on schedule - but we do get where we want to be.Sooner or later. Mostly later.


----------



## Romany16

The counter holds cream and sugar, but NO coffee... Currently 1:58, amtrak guesses arrival to be around 4 am.

If it were just me I could handle it, I have my kids (4&8) as well as my 70+ YO in-laws with me...

At least the kids are sleeping horizontally...




Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Romany16

3:38... Train sitting still just outside of redwing.

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----------



## Romany16

4:31, crew dead on time...

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


----------



## amtrakp42

Folks, check out the on time performance of The City of New Orleans. Many times is early due to schedule padding. Wonder why that is? Call Senator Durbin's office. Now you would not find out what his office did to fix it, but bottom line it is fixed. A conductor almost got fired for telling a passenger to call his senator to complain of late train all the time. Well enough people did call and you can see the results for yourself on the amtrak status website. This train was running 2-4 hours late into Chicago because the freight railroad didn't care. It appears they had an attitude adjustment of some kind. This same adjustment can be applied to BNSF I am sure. BNSF probably has some on demand trains themselves, such as part trains to car factories. If they don't get there on time, they get another railroad to haul it. N&W lost business through midwest as they could not get the on demand freight thru. So Amtrak will always be on the siding waiting till this attitude adjustment is applied. So call your senator especially if you live in those states the Empire Builder serves including Senator Durbin. Wonder how this can happen, well the rumor is that a threat of federal railroad safety enforcers can end up stopping a bunch of freights for inspection! Now they would be happy to run Amtrak on time to prevent that.


----------



## Romany16

On board and underway 5:45 our Sleeping Car Attendant is Dee.

Diner opens in 45 mins.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Romany16

private varnish on our tail.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## neroden

This sequence of delays reported by Romany16 is due to CP (it was delayed east of St. Paul), so that's who you need to tell your Senator to lean on.

BNSF has somewhat of an excuse and is deploying huge track crews. CP is just breaking the law wilfully.


----------



## TraneMan

Romany16 said:


> 3:38... Train sitting still just outside of redwing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Did they say why they are held back?? Didn't think there's any flooding in the area?


----------



## Romany16

From what I understand the crew went dead on time.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## NW cannonball

7(16) left CHI 2:15 late(according to Amtrak Track-a-train) and lost almost 4 hours between LaCrosse and Saint Paul. No wonder the crew ran out of hours.. 4 PV on the back end.


----------



## montana mike

Really, really bad day for the Empire Builders: #8 in ND now 11 hours late, #7 in ND now 7 1/2 hours behind, and #7 in MT now over 12 hours behind!!!

Good grief.


----------



## Romany16

North Dakota? We haven't even hit Fargo yet.

I just heard slow orders on the scanner and did we ever slow down. I smell hot brakes..,

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## montana mike

Yup, you are correct!!! I see you are still perhaps 20-30 miles east of Fargo in MN--holy cow!!!


----------



## Romany16

We are west of Fargo on slow orders. According to the OBS we are taking a route other than the surrey cutoff.

Our next stop is Minot four hours from now.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ispolkom

I just got an e-mail from Amtrak:



> Our records indicate that you are scheduled to depart on Amtrak train number 7, The Empire Builder, at 10:10PM on ....
> 
> We are contacting you today to inform you that passengers traveling aboard _Empire Builder_ trains can encounter significant delays due to very high volumes of freight train traffic along the route. During the previous weeks in May and June, delays averaged between three and five hours. While delays to the _Empire Builder_ have primarily been occurring west of St. Paul, Minn., passengers should anticipate delays in both directions.
> 
> BNSF Railway Co. owns and maintains the tracks and dispatches the trains west of St. Paul. BNSF is making capacity improvements, which are expected to reduce delays to Amtrak trains and to freight trains. However, many of these projects will not be complete until late 2014.


Two things occured to me:

1) a 3-5 hour delay is pretty good in the present situation, and

2) many of these projects won't actually be finished until late *2016*.

I suppose, though, that it's bad marketing to tell passengers, "Abandon all hope! You are doooomed!"

*Romany16*, if you're west of Fargo and on BNSF tracks, I'm pretty sure that you're taking the Surrey Cutoff. BNSF calls it the KO subdivision.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

At least someone is advising the customers now, before the start of trip. However, how much notice did you get?


----------



## Ispolkom

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> At least someone is advising the customers now, before the start of trip. However, how much notice did you get?


About two weeks.


----------



## montana mike

Ispolkom said:


> I just got an e-mail from Amtrak:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our records indicate that you are scheduled to depart on Amtrak train number 7, The Empire Builder, at 10:10PM on ....
> 
> We are contacting you today to inform you that passengers traveling aboard _Empire Builder_ trains can encounter significant delays due to very high volumes of freight train traffic along the route. During the previous weeks in May and June, delays averaged between three and five hours. While delays to the _Empire Builder_ have primarily been occurring west of St. Paul, Minn., passengers should anticipate delays in both directions.
> 
> BNSF Railway Co. owns and maintains the tracks and dispatches the trains west of St. Paul. BNSF is making capacity improvements, which are expected to reduce delays to Amtrak trains and to freight trains. However, many of these projects will not be complete until late 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> Two things occured to me:
> 
> 1) a 3-5 hour delay is pretty good in the present situation, and
> 
> 2) many of these projects won't actually be finished until late *2016*.
> 
> I suppose, though, that it's bad marketing to tell passengers, "Abandon all hope! You are doooomed!"
> 
> *Romany16*, if you're west of Fargo and on BNSF tracks, I'm pretty sure that you're taking the Surrey Cutoff. BNSF calls it the KO subdivision.
Click to expand...

Interesting, the past 4 weeks have averaged 341 minute delays into CHI, unless my math is wrong that averages out to just under 6 hour average delays. And remember, these delays are on top of the new 3 hours of additional time being built into the trip from SEA to CHI, so that averages out to actual delays of well over 9 hours from what the schedule was just last year!!! Oh, well, close enough I guess. And yes, only the first 25% of the BNSF track work will be completed by the end of the 2014 construction season. Again, "minor" detail. I agree, if you told potential pax that this mess was going to continue for another 18-24 months it would not be good for bookings.


----------



## Joe F

EB #8 is just out of Detroit Lakes, 14-1/2 hours late. No wonder I didn't see it in Red Wing today!

What are the chances that 8(15) and 7(17) will be at SPUD at the same time this evening?


----------



## yarrow

isn't amtrak supposed to release another eb schedule modification soon? what could they do that would make any difference?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Black Box Warning: "Abandon all hope! You are doooomed!"


----------



## montana mike

yarrow said:


> isn't amtrak supposed to release another eb schedule modification soon? what could they do that would make any difference?


Perhaps if they just put an estimated "day" that they will arrive rather than a specific time. Something like: We expect the Empire Builder will be in the vicinity of Minot at some time on Wednesday.


----------



## neroden

yarrow said:


> isn't amtrak supposed to release another eb schedule modification soon? what could they do that would make any difference?


"E Hunter Harrison has been kidnapped and will be available on the Empire Builder to discuss dispatching with the passengers." :giggle: That might help with the delays east of Chicago.


----------



## jebr

neroden said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> isn't amtrak supposed to release another eb schedule modification soon? what could they do that would make any difference?
> 
> 
> 
> "E Hunter Harrison has been kidnapped and will be available on the Empire Builder to discuss dispatching with the passengers." :giggle: That might help with the delays east of Chicago.
Click to expand...

If the Builder is getting delayed east of Chicago, we have more problems than just that the train is delayed.


----------



## Ryan

I knew we should have made that left turn at ABQ!!!


----------



## montana mike

Wow, look at the delays for the EB's today-yikes. And to think this is with all of the "extra" padding in the schedule. As BNSF said--this summer was going to be a busy one for construction-and the performance of both freights and pax trains shows it. My local BNSF guy says freight customers continue to howl with delays ranging from a few days to over a month to move their stuff--ouch!!!


----------



## Joe F

montana mike said:


> Wow, look at the delays for the EB's today-yikes. And to think this is with all of the "extra" padding in the schedule. As BNSF said--this summer was going to be a busy one for construction-and the performance of both freights and pax trains shows it. My local BNSF guy says freight customers continue to howl with delays ranging from a few days to over a month to move their stuff--ouch!!!


With 7 departing MSP at 3:57 AM this morning and 8 departing 10:28 PM last night, they came very close to reversing their respective schedule times.


----------



## ceo418

This may have been answered somewhere else, but if the EB is going to be late leaving Chicago and going to Minneapolis, will they put passengers going between those two cities on a bus? I'm thinking of doing an LD trip from TRE-MSP in December and will only be going as far as Minneapolis on the westbound EB.


----------



## TraneMan

ceo418 said:


> This may have been answered somewhere else, but if the EB is going to be late leaving Chicago and going to Minneapolis, will they put passengers going between those two cities on a bus? I'm thinking of doing an LD trip from TRE-MSP in December and will only be going as far as Minneapolis on the westbound EB.


No, they don;t do busses from CHI to MSP.


----------



## montana mike

The mega delays are starting to take their toll on the overall schedule once again, since the #8 arriving in CHI today will likely mean a late departure for #7 this afternoon (2-4 hours perhaps??), which would mean this train will likely miss all of it's slots on the Hi-Line, which may cause it to be extremely late into PDX and SEA, etc. etc. etc...

With no real additional rolling stock (remember they already have an additional train set in SEA and PDX to cover the "normal" arrival delays in those two cities now) to add to the mix on this route, we could possibly have another "stand down", where Amtrak restarts everything after canceling a few days of Empire Builders. It would be a darned shame to do this in the summer, with normally higher pax loads, but the delays are once again building up--and Amtrak knows it. Our local Amtrak people agree.


----------



## pianocat

Though I was looking fwd. to the extra time on the EB this August back to Chicago, the delays are becoming ridiculous and the potential of 14 hours of traveling at 20 mph or sitting on a siding indefinitely made me change my plans. I'm now coming back from the northwest on CS south to SAC, then CZ back to CHI where chances are good I'll make the CONO connection. Besides, I've never traveled beyond SLC on the CZ and look fwd. to the new terrain. Maybe in a couple of years, EB.....


----------



## MrFSS

pianocat said:


> Though I was looking fwd. to the extra time on the EB this August back to Chicago, the delays are becoming ridiculous and the potential of 14 hours of traveling at 20 mph or sitting on a siding indefinitely made me change my plans. I'm now coming back from the northwest on CS south to SAC, then CZ back to CHI where chances are good I'll make the CONO connection. Besides, I've never traveled beyond SLC on the CZ and look fwd. to the new terrain. Maybe in a couple of years, EB.....


Probably a wise move!


----------



## andersone

I wonder if Vegas should start a line on the EB,,,, the over under would be an interesting bet


----------



## crescent2

pianocat said:


> Though I was looking fwd. to the extra time on the EB this August back to Chicago, the delays are becoming ridiculous and the potential of 14 hours of traveling at 20 mph or sitting on a siding indefinitely made me change my plans. I'm now coming back from the northwest on CS south to SAC, then CZ back to CHI where chances are good I'll make the CONO connection. Besides, I've never traveled beyond SLC on the CZ and look fwd. to the new terrain. Maybe in a couple of years, EB.....


I can see why you'd change your trip. I hope you enjoy the CZ! That's the route I really want to do, but I haven't been able to make it work yet.

I follow the EB thread, and the folks trying to solve its problems have my sympathy!


----------



## Bob Dylan

pianocat said:


> Though I was looking fwd. to the extra time on the EB this August back to Chicago, the delays are becoming ridiculous and the potential of 14 hours of traveling at 20 mph or sitting on a siding indefinitely made me change my plans. I'm now coming back from the northwest on CS south to SAC, then CZ back to CHI where chances are good I'll make the CONO connection. Besides, I've never traveled beyond SLC on the CZ and look fwd. to the new terrain. Maybe in a couple of years, EB.....


You won't regret it, as was said wise choice for many reasons, first of which is the Scenery!
And would anyone be dumb enough to be the under with the ongoing mess on the Hi-Line?!!!!!


----------



## montana mike

I just had a brief conversation with our local travel agent, who books hundreds of tour people on the EB's each summer, and she has been bombarded with phone calls about this mess. And she says they cannot get straight answers from Amtrak either. Often conflicting info, which doesn't help the situation. They have already had some cancellations, but mostly just cranky tour members complaining about arriving in Glacier National Park in the middle of the night with poor support services for the tour members, etc....

She ended her comments that if things don't improve dramatically by the end of this season, they may just "pause" in their Empire Builder Bookings for 2015. This could be a blow to the Empire Builder's business if they did this. I know other tour companies may have larger numbers, but when the MT tour operators are considering pulling the plug on the Empire Builder service that should concern the powers that be at Amtrak.


----------



## neroden

jebr said:


> If the Builder is getting delayed east of Chicago, we have more problems than just that the train is delayed.


 Yeah, I meant east of Minneapolis. They should move Minneapolis to Chicago, make my life easier. ;-)


----------



## neroden

TraneMan said:


> ceo418 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may have been answered somewhere else, but if the EB is going to be late leaving Chicago and going to Minneapolis, will they put passengers going between those two cities on a bus? I'm thinking of doing an LD trip from TRE-MSP in December and will only be going as far as Minneapolis on the westbound EB.
> 
> 
> 
> No, they don;t do busses from CHI to MSP.
Click to expand...

Well, I've seen them do it, but only when the EB was cancelled completely. Otherwise you wait.


----------



## Ispolkom

pianocat said:


> Though I was looking fwd. to the extra time on the EB this August back to Chicago, the delays are becoming ridiculous and the potential of 14 hours of traveling at 20 mph or sitting on a siding indefinitely made me change my plans. I'm now coming back from the northwest on CS south to SAC, then CZ back to CHI where chances are good I'll make the CONO connection. Besides, I've never traveled beyond SLC on the CZ and look fwd. to the new terrain. Maybe in a couple of years, EB.....


Absolutely the right choice. I'm only traveling on the Empire Builder because the other choices (driving, taking the bus, or flying) are even less palatable. That $400 MSP-MOT ticket on Delta is starting to look better and better, though.


----------



## Joe Fishbein

All six EB train sets are showing on the Dixieland status map right now!


----------



## Midwestsunshine

We are booked round trip from Seattle to East Glacier Park in early Sept. . I'm concerned about the return trip from East Glacier to Seattle. With all the delays it looks like it's possible we may not board the train until midnight or later. How's the station at East Glacier? Will I be miserable there waiting?


----------



## NW cannonball

East Glacier is a minimal sort of station - waiting 10 hours there not a pleasure in itself.

But - there is usually many hours advance notice when the train is late - your lodging is fairly likely to help - let you wait in their lobby or such until the train is near - by early Sept the season is winding down.

Also - sad but true - nobody knows what the schedule will be for the Empire Builder in September. I'd stock up on snacks and games if the Builder is still running as irregularly as it is now.


----------



## NW cannonball

A friend just arrived MSP from WGL -- departed WGL on-time, arrived almost 15 hours late. Luckily the #54 bus is still running to MSP airport, she can pick up the rental car yet.


----------



## NW cannonball

Joe F said:


> EB #8 is just out of Detroit Lakes, 14-1/2 hours late. No wonder I didn't see it in Red Wing today!
> 
> What are the chances that 8(15) and 7(17) will be at SPUD at the same time this evening?


Well, they didn't meet there - but somewhere between MSP and RDW. Probably Who knows.

This thread is turning into a "how many hours late is it possible to be".

We may learn. Third world timings, but we get there. Sometime.

Learn to accept who owns and abuses the ROW. Live with it.

I've given up all worries about the train being "on time" - my app and my cellie let me know when to meet and greet.

BUT - I'm still planning on using the EB, so are my kids and friends.

The "Terms and conditions of service" have changed lately, but there's still a valuable connection there.


----------



## Gemuser

NW cannonball said:


> East Glacier is a minimal sort of station - waiting 10 hours there not a pleasure in itself.
> 
> But - there is usually many hours advance notice when the train is late - your lodging is fairly likely to help - let you wait in their lobby or such until the train is near - by early Sept the season is winding down.
> 
> Also - sad but true - nobody knows what the schedule will be for the Empire Builder in September. I'd stock up on snacks and games if the Builder is still running as irregularly as it is now.


This is true, but Glacier Park Lodge is but a 5 minute walk on a foot path and they meet the train so will be aware of the current trains where abouts, so I would think waiting there & having a nice meal & a drink would not be too bad. All this assumes GPL has not closed for the season by the time of your trip!


----------



## NW cannonball

Midwestsunshine said:


> We are booked round trip from Seattle to East Glacier Park in early Sept. . I'm concerned about the return trip from East Glacier to Seattle. With all the delays it looks like it's possible we may not board the train until midnight or later. How's the station at East Glacier? Will I be miserable there waiting?


Naah, like Gemuser said, Glacier is a tourist place and used to train delays. Don't sweat it. Do allow a few hours slack at your final destination.

Don't worry being unfed in a tiny little shelter in the midst of Montana with Winter coming on - it'll be better than that.

They train is likely late, plan on it, no worries.

Glacier is a wonderful place to visit - me been 20 years -- envy.


----------



## NW cannonball

Number 8 is now 17:54 late and soon to be in Wisconsin.

What will Chicago turn for the June 19 # 7?

Time will tell. A 24 hour late train would be some kind of record? Yah?

Today's #7 departed only 5:22 late westbound. Better than yesterday, but not good. And not likely to arrive Sea on schedule.

It's the only train in town. Gotta learn to live with it.


----------



## Gemuser

NW cannonball said:


> Number 8 is now 17:54 late and soon to be in Wisconsin.
> 
> What will Chicago turn for the June 19 # 7?
> 
> Time will tell. A 24 hour late train would be some kind of record? Yah?
> 
> Today's #7 departed only 5:22 late westbound. Better than yesterday, but not good. And not likely to arrive Sea on schedule.
> 
> It's the only train in town. Gotta learn to live with it.


Just for comparison the record lateness for Australia's east-west trans continental train, the Indian Pacific is 69 hours!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

NW cannonball said:


> Time will tell. A 24 hour late train would be some kind of record? Yah?


Ask amamba about her 30 29.5 hour EB trip.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/49287-empire-builder-to-the-lsl/


----------



## montana mike

Time for a complete reset!! The wheels have literally come off this route. There is little chance they will be able to keep on time departures at either end of the EB route now with these massive delays, so be prepared for an occasional cancelation to try to restart the schedule. Very sad. And it is not just BNSF in MT/ND now. WI has been a cause for many delays over the past week or so as well.

My BNSF guys are just shaking their heads, saying just wait a while longer, even more construction is coming-wow! Hopefully this does mean that there is a light at the end of the tunnel-just hope it isn't another train!!!!


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> And it is not just BNSF in MT/ND now. WI has been a cause for many delays over the past week or so as well.


I think that the spectacular delays on the Hi Line have overshadowed CP's considerable mismanagement of their line. For instance, the last few times I've been on #7 we have been delayed 30-90 minutes at Pigs Eye, just a couple miles from SPUD, because extra-long CP freight trains have blocked the switch on to the Merriam sub. While CP has not gotten as much oil patch traffic as BNSF has, it's enough to overload what used to be the Soo Line.



NW cannonball said:


> It's the only train in town. Gotta learn to live with it.


That's true, but it's becoming harder and harder.


----------



## yarrow

i wonder how much longer amtrak can live with the situation. even if they cancel a number of runs to reset equipment, in a couple days they would be back in the same spot


----------



## JayPea

I'm taking #7 on Monday to Seattle from Spokane and I've resorted to tracking the #8 that will turn in Chicago and become the #7/27 that I will take, the train of 6-21. So far that train is little over an hour late in western Montana. Hopefully it won't turn into another of those 18 hour late trains. And, if Saturday's westbound EB manages to leave Chicago reasonably on time, maybe, just maybe (drool) it will not be too late as it would run during the weekend, and they tend to do better on the weekend. One can always hope!


----------



## montana mike

Good Point. these 12-16 hour arrival delays are killing the entire route. Of interest may be BNSF's report to the Surface Transportation Board issued yesterday on their web site. They admit things are not going well. No mention of Amtrak issues. But they ack the complaints and concerns of their freight customers.


----------



## montana mike

JayPea said:


> I'm taking #7 on Monday to Seattle from Spokane and I've resorted to tracking the #8 that will turn in Chicago and become the #7/27 that I will take, the train of 6-21. So far that train is little over an hour late in western Montana. Hopefully it won't turn into another of those 18 hour late trains. And, if Saturday's westbound EB manages to leave Chicago reasonably on time, maybe, just maybe (drool) it will not be too late as it would run during the weekend, and they tend to do better on the weekend. One can always hope!


You can figure on the #8 now in western MT to lose about 6 hours between eastern MT and Fargo. After that it is a crap shoot, with some days losing "only" a couple hours, while others, like today, dropping 6-8 hours over the rest of the route.


----------



## andersone

and if it is not bad enough already,,,, 16 inches of snow, 6 inches of rain in GPK today,,,,, if the creeks don't rise !!!


----------



## montana mike

Fortunately the snow levels remained mostly above 6500 feet (where 1-3 feet of snow did indeed fall over the past couple days), far above where there EBs travel (Marias Pass around 5200 feet). We live just outside the Park and actually had a short period of heavy snow (no accumulation) two days ago, but it's partly sunny around 60 degrees now. The rivers are indeed high all throughout NW MT though. I don't think the weather will be an issue going forward for the trains. Forecast is for mostly sunny skies and temps around 70 degrees!!!


----------



## montana mike

Interesting Article in the Wall Street Journal today about Amtrak delays, with the Empire Builder mentioned in the article:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-sees-delays-increase-1403133350


----------



## AmtrakBlue

montana mike said:


> Interesting Article in the Wall Street Journal today about Amtrak delays, with the Empire Builder mentioned in the article:
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-sees-delays-increase-1403133350


Interesting that I got an email with a link to this...have no idea who sent it to me (did not recognize the email address).


----------



## jphjaxfl

Amtrak will not need to discontinue the Empire Builder. The unpredictable schedules will drive off the passengers except for a few railfans. Its a crime that this is allowed to happen.


----------



## JayPea

montana mike said:


> Fortunately the snow levels remained mostly above 6500 feet (where 1-3 feet of snow did indeed fall over the past couple days), far above where there EBs travel (Marias Pass around 5200 feet). We live just outside the Park and actually had a short period of heavy snow (no accumulation) two days ago, but it's partly sunny around 60 degrees now. The rivers are indeed high all throughout NW MT though. I don't think the weather will be an issue going forward for the trains. Forecast is for mostly sunny skies and temps around 70 degrees!!!


Hope that weather holds! I'm taking the EB to Glacier Park after a day or two in Seattle and I'm hoping that Going-to-the-Sun Road will be open fully by then. That may be too much to hope for though.


----------



## pianocat

Hope you get to do the whole Going-to-the-Sun route, right now [today] it looks like a substantial portion of the road is still closed. [http://home.nps.gov/applications/glac/roadstatus/roadstatus.cfm] In 2011 about this same time of year, it was only open a little bit on St. Mary side, too. Still....for a person with acrophobia....it was one of my greatest successes, but also one of the most terrifying rides I've ever taken. Good luck to you!! Breathtaking scenery [literally]


----------



## JayPea

I know it said on another part of their website the earliest it could open is tomorrow. I was there around the same time of year two years ago and it had just opened then. If it's still closed, well, there are plenty of other places around the park to enjoy!


----------



## pianocat

The Many Glacier hotel road is open, and that's a great place for a hike, nice lunch, then watching wildlife around the lake from the hotel lobby.


----------



## Erin

I'm heading out from Chicago to Portland on Tuesday (6/24) - I was supposed to leave on Wednesday for a friend's wedding, but decided to head out a day early (just in case) after getting the e-mail/text/phone call from Amtrak this weekend ... Reading this thread was like watching a car wreck, or something. It's terrible to see, but too magnetizing to look away...


----------



## NW cannonball

Right now NOAA is predicting floods near Hastings and Red Wing. It's been raining all day the last few days here at MSP.

Probably won't affect the rails - but could.

I have seen the tracks closed with water on them at Hastings and Red Wing when the Mississipi floods.

Hope it isn't worse on top of bad for the EB.


----------



## neroden

Bleah. Severe flooding in that area could easily close both the CP and the BNSF lines. The detour options are:

(1) Minnesota Commercial to Stillwater, then UP through Wisconsin

(2) CP connecting to CN through Chippewa Falls

Either route would be quite slow, and either would skip every stop between St Paul and Milwaukee

- CN has been uncooperative with reroutes in the past; I can't think of a single example where a train was rerouted onto CN tracks due to an emergency.

- It's quite hard to get from the UP route to Milwaukee station, possibly impractical.

During the June 2008 floods, Lake Delton dumped mud over the CP line, the BNSF line was flooded out by the Mississippi river, and I think the UP and CN lines flooded out in other places, so we ended up with a complete cancellation east of St. Paul.


----------



## NW cannonball

So - my son boarded #8 on time at SEA, and the TaT and all tell me he got past Everett.

Now it's a "service disruption" . Good that we knew from AU how possibly bad the timekeeping might be.

Hope to see the kid sometime Saturday, or whenever. No cell service wherever the train is.

Que sera.


----------



## montana mike

JayPea said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately the snow levels remained mostly above 6500 feet (where 1-3 feet of snow did indeed fall over the past couple days), far above where there EBs travel (Marias Pass around 5200 feet). We live just outside the Park and actually had a short period of heavy snow (no accumulation) two days ago, but it's partly sunny around 60 degrees now. The rivers are indeed high all throughout NW MT though. I don't think the weather will be an issue going forward for the trains. Forecast is for mostly sunny skies and temps around 70 degrees!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that weather holds! I'm taking the EB to Glacier Park after a day or two in Seattle and I'm hoping that Going-to-the-Sun Road will be open fully by then. That may be too much to hope for though.
Click to expand...

The local GNP people say the end of June or early July for an opening. They haven't even gotten to the "Big Drift" yet--which is a reported 80 feet deep right now!


----------



## yarrow

8(19)had a failed engine around everett. waiting for new power. probably be running around 4 hours late


----------



## NW cannonball

yarrow said:


> 8(19)had a failed engine around everett. waiting for new power. probably be running around 4 hours late


Thanks for the news.


----------



## elliewen

Advice for a relative newbie? I am relocating from CHI to SEA and for medical reasons I cannot fly. I am booked on the EB from CHI-SEA on Jul 20. I have an apartment in Chicago until Jul 27 but cannot extend the lease. So I desperately want to make it out of Chicago that week. My fear is that for some reason - weather, thawing ground somewhere on the route, heinous delays that keep the equipment from arriving CHI on time - the EB will get cancelled. If that happens then every sleeper passenger will need to be rebooked, not just me. And I am scared this will put me past the Jul 27 window and I will end up in Chicago for extra weeks on a couch (did I mention my medical condition?).

Am I being too paranoid? Any ideas what to do? The only backup plan I came up with was buying another sleeper ticket later the same week and canceling it if I make the first train, then using the $$ credit later. But this is a very expensive option.

Thanks so much in advance!!


----------



## Ryan

Relax. If you're not worried about getting to SEA at a particular time, you'll probably be fine. It's reasonable unlikely that your specific train is going to be cancelled, most likely just going to start a little late and end very late.


----------



## TraneMan

I agree with Ryan, I don't see that happening,


----------



## montana mike

elliewen said:


> Advice for a relative newbie? I am relocating from CHI to SEA and for medical reasons I cannot fly. I am booked on the EB from CHI-SEA on Jul 20. I have an apartment in Chicago until Jul 27 but cannot extend the lease. So I desperately want to make it out of Chicago that week. My fear is that for some reason - weather, thawing ground somewhere on the route, heinous delays that keep the equipment from arriving CHI on time - the EB will get cancelled. If that happens then every sleeper passenger will need to be rebooked, not just me. And I am scared this will put me past the Jul 27 window and I will end up in Chicago for extra weeks on a couch (did I mention my medical condition?).
> 
> Am I being too paranoid? Any ideas what to do? The only backup plan I came up with was buying another sleeper ticket later the same week and canceling it if I make the first train, then using the $$ credit later. But this is a very expensive option.
> 
> Thanks so much in advance!!


Hopefully you will just spend 5-7 hours longer on your train (and get an extra meal or two). I take the Empire Builders quite frequently, and while the service has been terrible as far as timekeeping to be sure, the actual number of trains that are canceled is small, thus the odds are definitely in your favor that your train will leave as planned CHI on 7/20. So we will all be thinking good thoughts that your train departs CHI on 7/20.


----------



## NW cannonball

yarrow said:


> 8(19)had a failed engine around everett. waiting for new power. probably be running around 4 hours late


Yup, #8 left Leavenworth 4:48 down. My on board correspondent reported just now (got in cell range) "We went backwards faster than forwards, and more often"

Anyhow, the train is moving eastward.

Spokane - here we come!

Hope the next 2 days on #8 good for scenery - have zero expectations for when or if #8 arrives SPUD - Saturday likely, but not sure.


----------



## montana mike

At least you will see Glacier NP in the daylight now! If all goes as "normal" these days an arrival into SPUD early in the afternoon tomorrow is a likely scenario.


----------



## MrFSS

montana mike said:


> At least you will see Glacier NP in the daylight now! If all goes as "normal" these days an arrival into SPUD early in the afternoon tomorrow is a likely scenario.


Mike - with the long delays well known by Amtrak, do you think they are stocking more food for extra meals on a regular basis, now?


----------



## EB_OBS

MrFSS said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least you will see Glacier NP in the daylight now! If all goes as "normal" these days an arrival into SPUD early in the afternoon tomorrow is a likely scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike - with the long delays well known by Amtrak, do you think they are stocking more food for extra meals on a regular basis, now?
Click to expand...

This is otherwise "peak-season" so pars are high. However space is limited for fresh and frozen food storage so when extra meals are served it's common for supplies to be picked up mid-route or near the end in order to serve another meal or two.

It's just not possible to stock enough food for two extra meals on the train from the origination station. There isn't enough space.


----------



## JayPea

montana mike said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately the snow levels remained mostly above 6500 feet (where 1-3 feet of snow did indeed fall over the past couple days), far above where there EBs travel (Marias Pass around 5200 feet). We live just outside the Park and actually had a short period of heavy snow (no accumulation) two days ago, but it's partly sunny around 60 degrees now. The rivers are indeed high all throughout NW MT though. I don't think the weather will be an issue going forward for the trains. Forecast is for mostly sunny skies and temps around 70 degrees!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that weather holds! I'm taking the EB to Glacier Park after a day or two in Seattle and I'm hoping that Going-to-the-Sun Road will be open fully by then. That may be too much to hope for though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The local GNP people say the end of June or early July for an opening. They haven't even gotten to the "Big Drift" yet--which is a reported 80 feet deep right now!
Click to expand...

I will be there June 26th thru the 28th. Looks like it may or may not be open fully by then. As I said earlier, there are still plenty of places to explore in Glacier and the surrounding area regardless. And on another note, unless some disaster happens, it looks like the #8 that will turn in Chicago to be tomorrow's #7/#27, the one I board in Spokane on Monday, will arrive in Chicago today plenty early for it to be turned and ready to go on time out of Chicago tomorrow. Of course, I'm not holding my breath on that!


----------



## andersone

the latest on GPK weather

"Snowplowing on the Sun Road is expected to resume on Sunday. Park officials are unsure when complete vehicle access will be available on the Sun Road" can be found here. [SIZE=12.222222328186035px]Seems[/SIZE] the GTSR has had an avalanche as a result of the recent weather, but no report of train related issues.


----------



## NW cannonball

Latest from the NWS - might affect the EB.

SOME LOCATIONS THAT WILL EXPERIENCE FLOODING INCLUDE....DOWNTOWNMINNEAPOLIS...DOWNTOWN ST PAUL....MSP INTL AIRPORT.....REDWING... etc. 
Some of these locations are on the EB route. The only one that worries me is Red Wing -- the tracks run near the river, and I've seen those tracks flooded more than once.

At that choke point near the river, it is *possible *that the Builder could be "stopped in it's tracks"

Not likely, but possible.

-- edit -- River high, creek done rise, sewer backed up, hope the darn train works.
But, for me, the important thing is -

Son from Seattle likely to arrive only 10 hours late, more or less . wHEE-YA-HAH.


----------



## montana mike

Updates from BNSF: They did open an initial 12 miles of new track in MT, the bad news is that slow orders are in effect for quite a while (20 mph, for this section). A second 10+ miles is to open shortly. I see #8 in ND is almost 10 hours late this AM-bummer. The flooding doesn't help either. I would imagine slow orders in various places in MN for that reason as well.


----------



## JayPea

So far, so good! The #7 I'm taking from Spokane Monday left CUS on time, the first time that's happened in several days. Now I can obsessively check its status every 2 minutes like I always do! :lol:


----------



## Ispolkom

NW cannonball said:


> Latest from the NWS - might affect the EB.
> 
> SOME LOCATIONS THAT WILL EXPERIENCE FLOODING INCLUDE....DOWNTOWNMINNEAPOLIS...DOWNTOWN ST PAUL....MSP INTL AIRPORT.....REDWING... etc.
> Some of these locations are on the EB route. The only one that worries me is Red Wing -- the tracks run near the river, and I've seen those tracks flooded more than once.
> 
> At that choke point near the river, it is *possible *that the Builder could be "stopped in it's tracks"
> 
> Not likely, but possible.
> 
> -- edit -- River high, creek done rise, sewer backed up, hope the darn train works.
> But, for me, the important thing is -
> 
> Son from Seattle likely to arrive only 10 hours late, more or less . wHEE-YA-HAH.


The Mississippi is supposed to crest at 20 feet on Thursday, the highest since April 2001. I don't know what that means in Red Wing, but if the tracks there are closed, I imagine Amtrak will pull the plug on the Empire Builder.


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## yarrow

JayPea said:


> So far, so good! The #7 I'm taking from Spokane Monday left CUS on time, the first time that's happened in several days. Now I can obsessively check its status every 2 minutes like I always do! :lol:


since 7 will go through the gauntlet on a weekend that gives you your best chance. one of the fun parts is the pre-trip obsessive checking of john's status maps. good luck and good trip to you


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## JayPea

yarrow said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> So far, so good! The #7 I'm taking from Spokane Monday left CUS on time, the first time that's happened in several days. Now I can obsessively check its status every 2 minutes like I always do! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> since 7 will go through the gauntlet on a weekend that gives you your best chance. one of the fun parts is the pre-trip obsessive checking of john's status maps. good luck and good trip to you
Click to expand...

Thank you, Yarrow. Much looking forward to it! After a couple of days in Seattle, I and my uncle head to Glacier Park and return to Spokane next Sunday. The return trip from Glacier to Spokane may be a problem if flooding shuts down rail lines. If absolute worst comes to worst we can always rent a car and return to Spokane that way if no other alternative is available. It will work out! And I agree about obsessively following John's maps being part of the fun. I don't know about you but I'm glad I live a day and a half from Chicago: more time to obsess over the maps! :lol:


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## Bob Dylan

Jeff:Maybe y'all can rent a raft and float back to Spokane like the Pioneers did in the old days! LOL


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## Ryan




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## neroden

Is 20 feet high enough to flood the tracks east of Union Depot? I know the whole darn area is in a flood plain, once you leave the elevated platform of Union Depot.


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## JayPea

LOL Jim and Ryan! :lol: If that's what it takes..... On a related note, according to Track-a-Train, #7 is due into Minneapolis-St. Paul on time. Hopefully the North Dakota Gauntlet won't be too bad.


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## NW cannonball

JayPea said:


> So far, so good! The #7 I'm taking from Spokane Monday left CUS on time, the first time that's happened in several days. Now I can obsessively check its status every 2 minutes like I always do! :lol:


Now, your #7 looks to be early into SCD. So far so good!

I too, spend a bit (a lot?) of time checking the train status on John's site or or Amtrak's Track-A-train When I or friends and relations are on board or about to be.


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## NW cannonball

neroden said:


> Is 20 feet high enough to flood the tracks east of Union Depot? I know the whole darn area is in a flood plain, once you leave the elevated platform of Union Depot.


Dunno. I have researched the floods and how the tracks are affected a bit. The 2001 floods had a double peak in April of that year at 23.76 (on 2001/04/16) and 23.6 (2001/04/30). There's photos on the Web from 2001 of CP's Saint Paul yard mostly wet - maybe a half-foot above railhead on the yard tracks, with mainline still above water. 20 foot flood (19.8 latest forecast) doesn't sound so bad.

In 2001 I did see from the Kellogg bridge several 6" pumps trying to dry the low spot near Division Street (where the SPUD station tracks now join the main line).

East from Division and Hoffman the next serious low spots are near Hastings Junction where the EB diverges across the Mississippi (and the BNSF crosses to Prescott and down the East Bank of the Miss) - I have seen that spot closed and spiked and didn't open for more than a week - but that was (if memory serves) in the 1997 flood.

Red Wing is the only other serious low spot near the Mississippi in my bailiwick - right now I guess Red Wing is the most vulnerable - looking at the flood forecasts and adding a big dose of salt and some limited experience.

It may be a near thing. Right now I'm not too worried about the floods (except in my basement, and Warner Road being closed).

Any more rain, all bets are off.

And, thinking a bit more, the tracks east of SPUD don't get flooded only by the Mississippi. There's a lot of local drainage that could cause problems from the uphill side - through Swede Hollow, say, or the long shallow unnamed valley that I35E and most of the tracks climb to get north out of Saint Paul.

I just don't know.


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## NW cannonball

Meeting my son at SPUD was -- an experience.

We had agreed by text at 17:00 plus that the EB #8 was "about to arrive"

I said -- "shall I bring sandwiches, take the Green Line to greet you? -- Ya sure Dad."

What happened was - the EB #8 was delayed at Saint Anthony (less than a hundred yards from our home, and about 7 miles from SPUD) for a few hours, after already being late 10-12 hours. Something about a container train failing its complicated evolution -- whatever.

BUT - I'd already took the Green line to SPUD.

I waited, after taking the Green Line to SPUD, not quite 3 hours, at SPUD. No food, (the restaurant on-site was doing a wedding) no working vending machines - even if you could find them on the lower level. But! I did not eat the sandwiches I brought for my West Coast traveler, oh no. Because I knew there's no decent cheap food near SPUD. (Tanpopo is always sold out Saturday evenings). And, man, the kid was glad I brought the sandwiches, when the train finally arrived)

All in all - not good for Amtrak - *but - it's the only train in town.*

The train was more than twelve hours late. A few hours waiting at a very nearby junction, where, if he hadn't checked a bag, he could have just jumped off, and met me and his gf a few hours earlier.

The pax waiting at SPUD -- I talked to some of them, several were meeting first-time Amtrak riders. Sorry experience for them. I tried to explain why this formerly prime route is so unpredictable.

Sorry sorry failures.

But the kid did get to Grandma's funeral. Somewhat late.

Hope this not too incoherent - but it's a sorry story of Amtrak and BNSF.

As for me - if the line can take me somewhere -- I might go.


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## JayPea

And, on the other hand, so far, the #7 that I catch tomorrow in Spokane is having incredible luck. It's last status was that it departed Fargo 22 minutes down and is scheduled to arrive in Minot on time. And, no, I'm not staying up all night just to feed my obsession with the status maps. :lol: I'm at work and on my break.


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## dlagrua

In the last 12 days we were on both the #7 and #8 EB trains. The Portland #27 passengers on June 11th ended up on a bus from Spokane to Portland. The line to Portland was also shut the following day. The bus passengers were offered a lavish dinner for the 8 hour trip to Portland- a Subway Sandwich! We were luckier. The arrival into SEA was ONLY about six hours late but at least we got there..

On the return trip the arrival of #8 into CUS on Thursday June 19th was 12 hours late. Sleeper passengers were given an extra full dinner. We pulled into CUS at 3:30AM missing *all *the connections East. We ended up on a bus for a 26 mile trip to Downers Grove, IL to stay in a very nice Doubletree Hotel to get 4 hours of sleep before being bused back to CUS. Amtrak also bought us breakfast at the hotel . The only thing available on the LSL Fri were coach seats. We wanted the CAP connection originally but I knew that it was very unlikely that we could connect on the return so as a precautionary move we booked the 9:30 PM Lakeshore. We re-booked back on the #30 (Capital Limited) on Fri and we were lucky to get the last bedroom for the remainder of the trip.. The bet paid off in that the LSL connection did not happen and since the LSL is the only connection that Amtrak was guaranteeing we were able to secure a hotel when all of the hotels in Chicago were booked solid. We left on the CAP (which was the preferred route anyway) and caught the regional back to PHL.

The entire trip had its ups and downs. The onboard crews were great, especially the SCA's; Robb on the EB, Tom on the Cardinal (that arrived on time) and Roger on the CAP.(that arrived 1 1/2 hours late.

IMO the main problem getting the EB to arrive on time is the oil boom in the Bakken region of North Dakota. There are something like 250 oil trains in that area. All are like a mile long. The heavy rail traffic cannot be accommodated on the single track mainline. The gross lateness of the EB will continue until such time as the BNSF gets a second track in place. It may be a year or two. As big oil money controls the tracks; Amtrak does not have priority. We recommend avoiding the EB until things improve. It is a mess right now.


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## yarrow

JayPea said:


> And, on the other hand, so far, the #7 that I catch tomorrow in Spokane is having incredible luck. It's last status was that it departed Fargo 22 minutes down and is scheduled to arrive in Minot on time. And, no, I'm not staying up all night just to feed my obsession with the status maps. :lol: I'm at work and on my break.


i dunno, JayPea, the last few times we have taken the eb west from spk we have been able to get up at our regular time, have breakfast and take a leisurely drive to the station. with an on time train you are going to have to get up early!


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## JayPea

yarrow said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, on the other hand, so far, the #7 that I catch tomorrow in Spokane is having incredible luck. It's last status was that it departed Fargo 22 minutes down and is scheduled to arrive in Minot on time. And, no, I'm not staying up all night just to feed my obsession with the status maps. :lol: I'm at work and on my break.
> 
> 
> 
> i dunno, JayPea, the last few times we have taken the eb west from spk we have been able to get up at our regular time, have breakfast and take a leisurely drive to the station. with an on time train you are going to have to get up early!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was looking forward to it being late enough that I wouldn't have to take the drive north in the dead of night. I may have to now!


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## montana mike

So far #7 in ND is down a couple hours. Yup, they might get into SPK "only" 2-3 hours behind. A lot depends on slow orders in eastern MT on the new tracks


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## JayPea

Still not too bad for #7. Could be a lot worse (and has been).


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## dlagrua

Judging from our experience from CHI to SEA and back in the last two weeks, I cannot recommend taking the Empire Builder until additional tracks are added to handle the high capacity of the huge amount of oil trains. A six hour lateness into SEA and a 12 hour lateness into CUS is unacceptable. It added a full day to the trip and caused a missed event yesterday.

The Bakken oil boom in North Dakota is expected to possibly last as long as 100 years!!! We may see the Keystone pipeline along the way but regardless, extra rail capacity will still be needed. Unfortunately, Amtrak is not going to win out against big oil money and Warren Buffets BNSF route.


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## NW cannonball

I, yesterday, waiting at SPUD - realized that --

Most of waiting passengers know what's going on (or not, on the BNSF) in ND. A few are clueless.

The EB *was *the el primo train here. Not now. Maybe next year. Or not.

Hoping it gets better... but that will take a while.

Meanwhile, it's the only train in town.


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## JayPea

Same here. It's the only train in town. In Spokane, which has no light rail and no.prospects of any light rail any time soon it's especially true. I keep reminding myself of the days of the Starlate and Sunset Limited and how they were routinely 12-14 hours or more late. And how those messes have seemed to have cleaned themselves up. I hold out optimism in time that the EB will do the same.


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## neroden

dlagrua said:


> Judging from our experience from CHI to SEA and back in the last two weeks, I cannot recommend taking the Empire Builder until additional tracks are added to handle the high capacity of the huge amount of oil trains. A six hour lateness into SEA and a 12 hour lateness into CUS is unacceptable. It added a full day to the trip and caused a missed event yesterday.
> 
> The Bakken oil boom in North Dakota is expected to possibly last as long as 100 years!!!


It's going to be over within 10 years. Exuberant claims like 100 years come from oilmen with a bad case of wishful thinking. Fracked fields run out really, really fast. 10 years is still long enough to cause a lot of trouble, though.


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## Ispolkom

neroden said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judging from our experience from CHI to SEA and back in the last two weeks, I cannot recommend taking the Empire Builder until additional tracks are added to handle the high capacity of the huge amount of oil trains. A six hour lateness into SEA and a 12 hour lateness into CUS is unacceptable. It added a full day to the trip and caused a missed event yesterday.
> 
> The Bakken oil boom in North Dakota is expected to possibly last as long as 100 years!!!
> 
> 
> 
> It's going to be over within 10 years. Exuberant claims like 100 years come from oilmen with a bad case of wishful thinking. Fracked fields run out really, really fast. 10 years is still long enough to cause a lot of trouble, though.
Click to expand...

It will be over one way or another. If the fields play out, there will be a crash, and oil shipments by rail will cease. If the price of oil drops, ditto, since fracking is expensive. If the field is as productive as some people claim, pipelines will be built to ship the oil, and rail can't compete with pipelines on price or safety, so oil shipments dry up that way, too.

BNSF is making hay while the sun shines, at the minimum of investment they can manage. It looks like they gauged the minimum a little lower than they ought to have.

I'm taking the Empire Builder west in a week. Given it's late arrival, I guess that Mrs. Ispolkom and I will have a chance to check out the new Bedlam Theatre, across the street from SPUD, while waiting for a late #7. I have fond memories of their old place in the Cedar Avenue neighborhood (now a mosque), but I've heard that the new staff isn't quite ready for primetime.


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## montana mike

neroden said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judging from our experience from CHI to SEA and back in the last two weeks, I cannot recommend taking the Empire Builder until additional tracks are added to handle the high capacity of the huge amount of oil trains. A six hour lateness into SEA and a 12 hour lateness into CUS is unacceptable. It added a full day to the trip and caused a missed event yesterday.
> 
> The Bakken oil boom in North Dakota is expected to possibly last as long as 100 years!!!
> 
> 
> 
> It's going to be over within 10 years. Exuberant claims like 100 years come from oilmen with a bad case of wishful thinking. Fracked fields run out really, really fast. 10 years is still long enough to cause a lot of trouble, though.
Click to expand...

Again, I quote the USGS --the energy folks have only drilled 10% of the potential wells in ND and MT as of May 2014. Their estimate is that the Bakken will be a major energy player for 70 years with today's technology MINIMUM. Let's do the math: Current output is 1 million BBLS/day from the Bakken. The latest API estimate of recoverable oil and equivalent (natural gas inc) (again using today's technology) is 1.2 TRILLION BBLS of oil in the entire Bakken structure (not all is fully recoverable at this time, but much, much more so than just a few years ago). Yes, some of this is in Canada to be sure, but just looking at MT and ND his estimate of 70 years seems reasonable and logical.

You need to distinguish between hydraulic fracturing of old wells to obtain what remains in those and the drilling and fracturing of a new structure and well complex. There is a significant difference. Ask any geologist or energy person.

;-)


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## montana mike

Anyone know if there was anything out of the ordinary today to cause #8, now in MN to be 15 hours late? Or is it just the usual delays we have all been seeing?


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## neroden

montana mike said:


> Again, I quote the USGS --the energy folks have only drilled 10% of the potential wells in ND and MT as of May 2014.


Sure, they can drill more wells -- you can always drill holes in the ground -- but they aren't going to find great masses of oil.



> Their estimate is that the Bakken will be a major energy player for 70 years with today's technology MINIMUM. Let's do the math: Current output is 1 million BBLS/day from the Bakken. The latest API estimate of recoverable oil and equivalent (natural gas inc) (again using today's technology) is 1.2 TRILLION BBLS of oil in the entire Bakken structure (not all is fully recoverable at this time, but much, much more so than just a few years ago).


Again, I strongly suspect this is a gross overestimate. Every single newly-fracked-field estimate for shale has been a gross overestimate for decades now. They follow a completely different dropoff pattern from conventional fields -- you get most of the oil and nearly all the gas upfront, and then they drop off *sharply*.

Some of the USGS internal reports seem to have adjusted for that; but has this report done so? Because the oil companies really hated it when the first honest report came out (pointing out that there was next-to-nothing in the Utica and Marcellus Shale), and I wouldn't be surprised if the USGS backed off and stopped giving honest reports, since there's a lot of regulatory capture these days.

That line about "equivalents" is particularly suspicious, and has proven wrong repeatedly: the fracked natural gas fields always run low in 10 years. The liquids last somewhat longer usually.

70 years is a complete fantasy. The gushers in Wyoming lasted 70 years; that was conventional oil. There is no way in hell that a fracked shale field, which has a far sharper dropoff curve, will last that long.

...of course, as lspolkom points out, the pricing might get them first. There are some *really* big trends happening in energy. The electricity market is about to cross the threshold where solar power is cheaper than anything else, including natural gas, coal, and oil; it already has crossed the threshold in several states and countries. The heating market will cross the threshold where it is cheaper to heat with electricity than gas soon after that (it's already cheaper than heating with oil), definitely within the next 10 years. Due to battery pricing dropping at a somewhat slower rate than solar pricing, the transportation market will take slightly longer to cross the threshold where electric autos are more cost-effective than gasoline autos, but it's going to be crossed fairly soon nonetheless -- my guess is within 20 years. At that point it's over; the other uses for oil are niche, in volume terms, and can be satisfied by old Saudi fields.

The economics: Renewable energy prices -- still falling -- will put a cap on retail prices for fossil fuels, though there will be several bounces in price (for both) due to supply constraints on solar panels. The oil prices will continue to cycle between high (supply-constrained, destroys demand permanently as people switch) and low (demand-constrained, causes cancellation of investment in exploration and new wells). This won't destroy the oil business entirely -- after all, Saudi Arabia's still got a lot of "easy" oil which doesn't require new wells at all -- but it will destroy the exploration business.


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## montana mike

We are waaaaaaaaay off topic now. Be careful. In the 30+ years of following the energy business closely, both here and when we lived back east (and my undergraduate work in petroleum engineering) I beg to differ with your conclusions. I guess we will both have to check back in around 2084 to see who was right!! )))

btw--The end of the era of "easy" Saudi oil is on the horizon. The proverbial light at the end of the tunnel for the wealthy sheiks--and it is indeed an oncoming freight train. The revelation that the Saudi Oil Minister had to admit they could not make up a significant portion of the potential loss of Iraqi oil last week (in both the short and long term) sent the price of Brent Crude up to the highest price in well over a year.

Meanwhile poor #8 today is now over 15 hours late and won't likely arrive into CHI until late tomorrow morning--bummer.

)


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## Phil S

Well, you guys better hope that cheap oil ends soon. If it doesn't. the climate change catastrophe will only be worse. Sadly, I worked in this field for a living for 35 years, made a lot of new science discoveries, none of which have had any effect, that I can see, on the current global death spiral.

But yes, we're way off topic.

I guess.


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## neroden

montana mike said:


> The revelation that the Saudi Oil Minister had to admit they could not make up a significant portion of the potential loss of Iraqi oil last week (in both the short and long term) sent the price of Brent Crude up to the highest price in well over a year.


Oh, so the Saudis have been lying about reserves, as some suspected. Very interesting...

....nope, I just checked and I can't find your reference. All I can see is the Saudi oil minister saying he likes a tight oil market and high prices, and so *chooses* not to make up for Iraqi oil.... big difference...


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## aurbo

Back on topic.......................... I just saw 8 leave GFK at a little after 4am right BEHIND a Z-train. They are chugging along at 40mph. They will be sitting at a siding in Grandin for a while and likely spend some quality time at the Harwood siding waiting for a slot into Fargo...according to scanner reports. Seems to be the same story every day.


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## montana mike

Hearing from BNSF that much of the track work in ND does not appear to happen until 2015 and beyond, so the delays thru ND may continue for a while


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## neroden

Honestly at this point I'm more worried about the CP dispatching. BNSF is clearly double-tracking as fast as they think they can, and that will alleviate the problems eventually. CP.... is deliberately running trains longer than their sidings and obstructing traffic within a mile of St. Paul Union Depot...


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## JayPea

Just for Neroden. :lol: 


This was at Wenatchee this morning.


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## Bob Dylan

Nice pic Jeff, guess you're getting to see your neck of the woods in daylight instead of snoozing away the miles! Did you still get to the SPK Station early?? LOL

Keep us posted!


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## JayPea

I got to the station about 2:30 AM and the EB left 2 hrs late at 5:45. So I did get to see all of Eastern Washington in daylight. Looking to get into Seattle maybe 1 1/2 hrs late.


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## montana mike

That may be the best performing #7 this week into SEA/PDX. The one behind you is already 5+ hours late and hasn't even made it thru all of the slow areas yet. Meanwhile #8 in MN is well over 9 hours behind.


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## JayPea

Just backing into King St. now.


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## William W.

I've wanted to take the EB for a while now (I'm 19 and just started taking Amtrak last summer). Should I even bother until the OT performance improves? Any trip I would take would involve connections, which I would almost be guaranteed to miss, with how late the EB is running these days.


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## montana mike

While it is a great ride-I take it 8-10 times a year for mostly business travel-with the current mess on the Hi-Line, unless you are willing to plan on adding an extra day of travel by staying overnight at either CHI or SEA/PDX to your schedule I would suggest you wait until BNSF and CPR get their act together. There is only one train Amtrak is offering as a connection now, the Lake Shore Limited. But even that one is iffy, given the current track record.

PS--There are other fun rides on some of the other LD trains. You may want to look at those possibilities!


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## William W.

montana mike said:


> While it is a great ride-I take it 8-10 times a year for mostly business travel-with the current mess on the Hi-Line, unless you are willing to plan on adding an extra day of travel by staying overnight at either CHI or SEA/PDX to your schedule I would suggest you wait until BNSF and CPR get their act together. There is only one train Amtrak is offering as a connection now, the Lake Shore Limited. But even that one is iffy, given the current track record.
> 
> PS--There are other fun rides on some of the other LD trains. You may want to look at those possibilities!


Thanks for the advice. I'm looking at either a Southwest Chief or (LAX-CHI) Texas Eagle trip in the west, and a Lake Shore Limited trip in the East (To be taken in the next 1-2 years).


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## Bob Dylan

The Chief is a good train but you may want to consider the California Zephyr and the Coast Starligh, Amtraks Best LD Routes, over the SunsetLtd./Texas Eagle!


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## William W.

jimhudson said:


> The Chief is a good train but you may want to consider the California Zephyr and the Coast Starligh, Amtraks Best LD Routes, over the SunsetLtd./Texas Eagle!


I've already taken the CZ once (I'd like to take all of the LD trains at least once, before doing repeats). The Coast Starlight seems like a cool train (I like the idea of the PPC). I could probably find a way to fold it into a SWC trip.


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## Bob Dylan

William W. said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Chief is a good train but you may want to consider the California Zephyr and the Coast Starligh, Amtraks Best LD Routes, over the SunsetLtd./Texas Eagle!
> 
> 
> 
> I've already taken the CZ once (I'd like to take all of the LD trains at least once, before doing repeats). The Coast Starlight seems like a cool train (I like the idea of the PPC). I could probably find a way to fold it into a SWC trip.
Click to expand...

Excellent! My next suggestion, if you haven't already taken them, is to ride the Cardinal or the Capitol Ltd East from CHI instead of the Lakeshore!


----------



## William W.

jimhudson said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Chief is a good train but you may want to consider the California Zephyr and the Coast Starligh, Amtraks Best LD Routes, over the SunsetLtd./Texas Eagle!
> 
> 
> 
> I've already taken the CZ once (I'd like to take all of the LD trains at least once, before doing repeats). The Coast Starlight seems like a cool train (I like the idea of the PPC). I could probably find a way to fold it into a SWC trip.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Excellent! My next suggestion, if you haven't already taken them, is to ride the Cardinal or the Capitol Ltd East from CHI instead of the Lakeshore!
> 
> I have all of the routes that I've already taken in my signature.
Click to expand...


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## TraneMan

Well, tonight is the night, and EB had left CHI almost 3 hours late. Been getting text/email, and phone call about the late train a few times tonight, I've never had that much update before!

Will keep ya posted as we travel!


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## Ryan

Good luck!!!


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## William W.

If I didn't have any sort of fixed schedule (no connections, flights, or hotels to worry about), I'd definitely take the EB. To me, a delay, when I'm not inconvenienced, is extra time on the train at no extra charge.


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## Bob Dylan

William W. said:


> If I didn't have any sort of fixed schedule (no connections, flights, or hotels to worry about), I'd definitely take the EB. To me, a delay, when I'm not inconvenienced, is extra time on the train at no extra charge.


Most of us agree with you but the Loooong waits @ Stations, especially in the middle of the night @ unstaffed and rural ones, isn't that great!


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## montana mike

TraneMan said:


> Well, tonight is the night, and EB had left CHI almost 3 hours late. Been getting text/email, and phone call about the late train a few times tonight, I've never had that much update before!
> 
> Will keep ya posted as we travel!


Hopefully this #7 will perform better than the one currently poking along in MT tonight--now well over 9 hours late. Figure on the #7 that left CHI this evening will likely lose 5-6 hours overnight in ND.

:-(


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## dlagrua

Coming off our recent experience on the EB I would recommend that everyone not use this route until the oil traffic problem has been solved. Arriving into CHI at 4 AM isn't much fun, especially when the SCA's don't put the beds down at 10 PM when the train is late.. They will only pull out the bottom bunk (if you have a bedroom) and you can "comfortably" share that. Roomette passengers sit up and coach passengers flood the sightseer lounge to sleep. The good thing is that the EB carried enough food for an extra dinner and we had nearly the same choices. By the time all sleeper passengers were served all meal selections were gone. Coach was offered a "complementary meal" and you guessed it, the pails were opened and Dinty Moore beef stew was heated and scooped out out giving passengers "the runs" for the next day or so. Its like the same food that they serve to prisoners! By the time you get to your hotel its close to 5:30 AM before you can get some sleep; and you need to check out at 11AM.

The EB mess is not Amtrak's fault, but some very significant oil train problems exist on this route. If they are not addressed and solved soon, I suspect that ridership on the route will decline. Its a shame that this route has been adversely affected by the oil boom.


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## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> Coming off our recent experience on the EB *I would recommend that everyone not use this route until *the oil traffic problem has been solved. Arriving into CHI at 4 AM isn't much fun, especially when the SCA's don't put the beds down at 10 PM when the train is late.. They will only pull out the bottom bunk (if you have a bedroom) and you can "comfortably" share that. Roomette passengers sit up and coach passengers flood the sightseer lounge to sleep. The good thing is that the EB carried enough food for an extra dinner and we had nearly the same choices. By the time all sleeper passengers were served all meal selections were gone. Coach was offered a "complementary meal" and you guessed it, the pails were opened and Dinty Moore beef stew was heated and scooped out out giving passengers "the runs" for the next day or so. Its like the same food that they serve to prisoners! By the time you get to your hotel its close to 5:30 AM before you can get some sleep; and you need to check out at 11AM.
> 
> The EB mess is not Amtrak's fault, but some very significant oil train problems exist on this route. If they are not addressed and solved soon,* I suspect that ridership on the route will decline*. Its a shame that this route has been adversely affected by the oil boom.


And you want to contribute to the decline in ridership? :wacko:


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## Ispolkom

AmtrakBlue said:


> And you want to contribute to the decline in ridership? :wacko:


It seems a reasonable response. I'm about one more bad trip from switching to driving from St. Paul to Minot. I like taking trains, not abuse. YMMV, of course.


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## Just-Thinking-51

"BNSF Railways is seeking bids from tank car manufacturers for 5,000 "next generation" tank cars that will be built to even higher standards that CPC-1232 standards agreed to in October 2011."

Source is Trains Magazine July 2014 issue. Page 6.

Someone is betting big.


----------



## montana mike

This is on top of the 5000 new tank cars they started to receive last month and will continue to take delivery on for months to come.


----------



## William W.

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> "BNSF Railways is seeking bids from tank car manufacturers for 5,000 "next generation" tank cars that will be built to even higher standards that CPC-1232 standards agreed to in October 2011."
> 
> Source is Trains Magazine July 2014 issue. Page 6.
> 
> Someone is betting big.


I believe BNSF announced that a few months ago. I made quite a bit of money off that news (I used to have a position in American Railcar Industries' stock).


----------



## TraneMan

So far the trip has gone well. We only lost 10 min on the KO, and didn't have to sit in siding for long! Train is pretty full too!

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## montana mike

Are you on #7 that just left MOT about 4 hours behind?


----------



## TraneMan

montana mike said:


> Are you on #7 that just left MOT about 4 hours behind?


Yep. Just left Stanley

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## tim49424

7 left on time from CHI today and is on time leaving MKE too. It's been a while since that happened.


----------



## montana mike

TraneMan said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you on #7 that just left MOT about 4 hours behind?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Just left Stanley
> 
> -Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.
Click to expand...

Good Luck the rest of the way. Hopefully you won't lose any more time


----------



## JayPea

Beautiful weather here in Seattle! Hope it holds that way for you!


----------



## TraneMan

Sounds like maintance work around Glasgow. If we are not there by some time(didn't catch it right away), we can't move till 10:30.

-Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


----------



## lyke99

Keep us updated on your progress, TraneMan. The wife and I will be heading west in a couple of weeks and with the on-time performance of late, it looks like our connection to Cascades 516 at SEA is risky. It is all one itinerary and I know they'll take care of us if we don't make it, but I'd rather make the connection than miss it.


----------



## Erin

On the 7, just left Red Wing for Minneapolis/St. Paul. The flooding in Red Wing is impressive, pretty close to the tracks past the little park. I think we're only 10-15 minutes behind.


----------



## TraneMan

lyke99 said:


> Keep us updated on your progress, TraneMan. The wife and I will be heading west in a couple of weeks and with the on-time performance of late, it looks like our connection to Cascades 516 at SEA is risky. It is all one itinerary and I know they'll take care of us if we don't make it, but I'd rather make the connection than miss it.


We at first we going to do the connections up to Vancouver, but I just did not want to lose a day there.. So we agreed to leave a day earlier, and spend the night in SEA and then take the first train up.

We just pulled into Glasgow, and they just announced that BNSF is parking us here till about 11:30.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## montana mike

Well, at least you are doing slightly better than the #7 ahead of you in WA--they are approaching 11 hours late in arriving in SEA! Once you make it past Glasgow the major delays should be behind you!


----------



## TraneMan

We are now are moving.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## JayPea

You should make up a couple of hours into Spokane and 30-60 minutes between Spokane and Seattle.


----------



## montana mike

So far it looks like status quo--still around 9-10 hours behind. Oh, well....


----------



## TraneMan

Good Morning everyone! Been a good trip over all so far, I just woke up from a good sound sleep last night. We are about 9ish hours late, and over all most people are doing great. We are in the Glacier area and everyone is wowing the view they are seeing here, and I think this delay are making it worth it for some of them.

We sat with a couple from Ohio, and they are on the way to SEA like we are. They going to a ball game tonight, but I don't think they are going to make it since they said the game is at 7 tonight.. :-( He admitted they were aware of the delays, but thought it wouldn't happen to them.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Erin said:


> On the 7, just left Red Wing for Minneapolis/St. Paul. The flooding in Red Wing is impressive, pretty close to the tracks past the little park. I think we're only 10-15 minutes behind.


Oh dear. They'll just have to give that water the boot. :ROFL:


----------



## TraneMan

They just announced the PDX passengers will be bused from SPK.

-Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


----------



## JayPea

TraneMan said:


> They just announced the PDX passengers will be bused from SPK.
> 
> -Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


Any more it's hit and miss, mostly miss, for 27 to run due to trackwork between Spokane and Pasco. I will be on 8 out of Seattle today; I'll wave when we meet somewhere in Central Washington!


----------



## nanran

TraneMan said:


> They just announced the PDX passengers will be bused from SPK.
> 
> -Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


I think this is what worries me the most. I see my first trip on the EB as an adventure. We have altered out plans a bit to accommodate the late arrivals like adding a nights lodging at the Izaak Walton Inn and changing the location of the pick up for the rental car in Portland but we don't have specific times where we have to be and I am looking forward to listening to books on tape and looking at the wonderful scenery and just enjoying the train no matter how long it takes. However, to have to board a bus in SPK to go to PDX would definitely be a bummer so I will definitely keep my fingers crossed that this does not happen. TraneMan thank you for your posts.


----------



## lyke99

TraneMan said:


> lyke99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep us updated on your progress, TraneMan. The wife and I will be heading west in a couple of weeks and with the on-time performance of late, it looks like our connection to Cascades 516 at SEA is risky. It is all one itinerary and I know they'll take care of us if we don't make it, but I'd rather make the connection than miss it.
> 
> 
> 
> We at first we going to do the connections up to Vancouver, but I just did not want to lose a day there.. So we agreed to leave a day earlier, and spend the night in SEA and then take the first train up.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we talked about staying a night in Seattle, but decided to do the same day connection since we've been to Seattle twice in the last four years. We have three days scheduled in Vancouver before heading east on The Canadian. If we miss the connection to 516, we'll just chalk it up to the "adventure."


----------



## NW cannonball

Here in Minnesota - looks like the Mississippi floods won't be stopping the EB.

Just the (now) usual delays - late departures from CHI, bad train dispatching thru Hoffman-Pigs-eye-Dunn,

Sometimes getting stuck between Fargo and Grand Forks (where the BNSF yearly plan shows a big new siding

And the infamous ND oil area -

and the random problems, like my son experienced last week SEA-MSP

- first, needing an unscheduled BNSF helper for Steven's pass (had to back down and wait for a BNSF motor and crew due to engine failure, maybe the PV contributed to the problem

- Later on that run, the crew saw a MVA (not involving the train) somewhere in ND - the train stopped and on-board pax (RN & EMT) assisted stabilizing the victims for the half-hour it takes out there for BLS to get to an accident scene. Surely this wasn't Amtrak's or BNSF's fault.

Anyhow, the Hi-Line won't ever be the NEC,

But -- it can get better (I hope)


----------



## Michigan Mom

Saw this story this morning and figured there would be an EB discussion ongoing here:

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/06/26/north-dakota-discloses-oil-train-shipment-details/20920322/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl7%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D493674

"track work" ....hmmm okay..... the oil companies rule more than ever.


----------



## montana mike

It appears it is Seattle's turn in the ditch over the past week. Delays into SEA averaged over 400 minutes!! Ouch. Not much better going east, but this trend-really late trains into SEA-is not a good one.

:-(


----------



## andersone

Well they are still trying to OPEN GTSR, both plow teams working towards the big drift,,, they have five weeks to finish,,, looking to be one of the latest openings in history


----------



## montana mike

My local GNP friends say early July is a likely opening date. The latest ever was 7/13 btw.

)


----------



## JayPea

I won't be able to drive the whole route this time around but will be back in August. Beautiful scenery today at Many Glacier despite the rain.


----------



## andersone

Thanks Mike for the history ,,, I searched for a bit but couldn't find it,,,, seems like I will be safe on August 9th,,,, now I only have to worry about the EB,,,,,,,


----------



## montana mike

Hopefully by then enough of the new track will have been installed to give the EB some relief. August is usually one of best months to see GNP--warm temps and sunny skies are the norm. Enjoy!!!!


----------



## andersone

I intend to MM - I am reliving the trips of my youth,,, and I have a Libby story I cant' share here,,, but I am sure that will not re-occur


----------



## montana mike

Just touched base with a couple of my BNSF folks locally. They say another stretch of new track should open up shortly in MT, with a third segment scheduled to be ready by the end of July. They say that the days of 12+ hour delays caused by BNSF freight issues should be winding down over the next 30 days, with average delays running closer to 4-6 hours, perhaps even less by the Fall if all goes well in their construction plans.

The one caveat is that BNSF is now running over 100 trains per day more system wide than they did last winter. So even though new tracks, sidings, switches, locomotives, etc... are coming on line, the amount of traffic is also increasing, and expected to do so for the foreseeable future. The one BNSF guy reminded me that they are just beginning to take delivery of all of those new tanker cars and they are not just replacing the old ones yet (the older ones will stay in service for up to another year until the next batch of tanker cars arrives some time in the Spring of 2015).

So at least there is some good news.


----------



## neroden

Well, that is good news. As long as the situation on CP doesn't deteriorate any further...


----------



## JayPea

Spent today traversing the eastern part of Going-to-the-Sun Road. Even though we couldn't go all the way through, what scenery I did see was spectacular. Tomorrow will be the west side. Making do with the hand Mother Nature dealt us.


----------



## mwmnp

montana mike said:


> Just touched base with a couple of my BNSF folks locally. They say another stretch of new track should open up shortly in MT, with a third segment scheduled to be ready by the end of July.


Where are the double track segments that have been opened/will be opened in Montana? I know two segments, consisting of a bit more than 20 miles in total, have opened so far in North Dakota, but I have not heard of anything opening in Montana.



montana mike said:


> The one caveat is that BNSF is now running over 100 trains per day more system wide than they did last winter.


Here is a graph of the weekly intermodal and carload unit handled by BNSF since the start of 2013. The data come from the weekly carload counts BNSF publishes on its website.


----------



## montana mike

mwmnp said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just touched base with a couple of my BNSF folks locally. They say another stretch of new track should open up shortly in MT, with a third segment scheduled to be ready by the end of July.
> 
> 
> 
> Where are the double track segments that have been opened/will be opened in Montana? I know two segments, consisting of a bit more than 20 miles in total, have opened so far in North Dakota, but I have not heard of anything opening in Montana.
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The one caveat is that BNSF is now running over 100 trains per day more system wide than they did last winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here is a graph of the weekly intermodal and carload unit handled by BNSF since the start of 2013. The data come from the weekly carload counts BNSF publishes on its website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bnsfcarloads.png
Click to expand...

Glasgow sub--right on the MT border into ND.


----------



## JayPea

Wow!  . The #7 that I and my uncle catch out of East Glacier tonight is ON TIME out of Stanley!!!


----------



## yarrow

JayPea said:


> Wow!  . The #7 that I and my uncle catch out of East Glacier tonight is ON TIME out of Stanley!!!


you lead a charmed life, JayPea. i'm going to be on 7 out of west glacier in a couple weeks and don't look forward to waiting around the platform waiting for a 5,6,7 or 8 hour late eb


----------



## montana mike

Please everyone take note #8 and #7 in MT will almost surely pass each other in Eastern MT shortly ON TIME today for the first time that I can remember in perhaps 6-9 months, maybe longer!!! Given the track record of #7 lately this is is a pleasant turn of events. I guess the weekend schedule helps somewhat, along with lessening of the flood threat in MN and WI--whoopee!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Amazing! Guess its true because Jeff is in Glacier waiting on #7! Those Northwesterners seem to have luck with the Builder!


----------



## William W.

I feel like Amtrak should pass out free booze and have a party every time the EB is on-time coming out of ND. It seems like a special occasion to me these days.


----------



## montana mike

Perhaps T-shirts saying "I survived North Dakota!!!!"


----------



## JayPea

yarrow said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow!  . The #7 that I and my uncle catch out of East Glacier tonight is ON TIME out of Stanley!!!
> 
> 
> 
> you lead a charmed life, JayPea. i'm going to be on 7 out of west glacier in a couple weeks and don't look forward to waiting around the platform waiting for a 5,6,7 or 8 hour late eb
Click to expand...

It must be my good looks, charming personality, and most of all my extreme humility.  :lol: Just over an hour late at Glasgow; we might be a little late but not too bad and could get into Spokane on time! Not such good of luck with the weather, though: it rained on and off Thursday, mostly on, was nice but windy yesterday, and poured down rain today. I hope you have a great trip, Yarrow and you won't have to deal with hours-late EBs. And the weather is much nicer for you.


----------



## Phil S

montana mike said:


> Perhaps T-shirts saying "I survived North Dakota!!!!"


Better than I survived Amtrak.


----------



## jebr

And now a new spot for delays, at least for the next three weeks or so. Talking with the conductor on board sounds like it's in the Northtown yard area (so the Empire Builder runs through there as well.)


----------



## D.P. Roberts

For those of you with knowledge of the EB situation and are proficient with crystal balls...

What do you think the EB's schedule will look like next summer? Will it be better or worse than it is right now? Will Amtrak still be running on a "modified" schedule?

I'm thinking of planning a trip to Glacier National Park next summer, and I'm trying to figure out which stop would be best for detraining (least likely to be the middle of the night).


----------



## Ispolkom

William W. said:


> I feel like Amtrak should pass out free booze and have a party every time the EB is on-time coming out of ND. It seems like a special occasion to me these days.


No, the free booze should be for the epics, the 12+ hour late trains. I'll be on #7 on Tuesday. I live in hope.


----------



## William W.

Ispolkom said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like Amtrak should pass out free booze and have a party every time the EB is on-time coming out of ND. It seems like a special occasion to me these days.
> 
> 
> 
> No, the free booze should be for the epics, the 12+ hour late trains. I'll be on #7 on Tuesday. I live in hope.
Click to expand...

Give booze to pissed off sleeping car pax, starving/pissed off coach pax, and disheveled, caffeine-fueled OBS? What's the worst that could happen?

:unsure: hboy: :help:


----------



## NW cannonball

D.P. Roberts said:


> For those of you with knowledge of the EB situation and are proficient with crystal balls...
> 
> What do you think the EB's schedule will look like next summer? Will it be better or worse than it is right now? Will Amtrak still be running on a "modified" schedule?
> 
> I'm thinking of planning a trip to Glacier National Park next summer, and I'm trying to figure out which stop would be best for detraining (least likely to be the middle of the night).


Sorry, my crystal ball is worse than some contributors, better than others, but -

A year out -- we can all post guesses, but YMMV and your time of arrival is "in the lap of the gods" - and will be next year also.

That's the best I can guess.

But I do plan to ride the EB at least once or twice the next 12 months.


----------



## William W.

I'm looking at taking it next January, during my college's winter break. That way, if the train disappears for a few days, I won't miss class.

Despite the delays, it still seems like one of the best routes scenery wise. It's definitely at the top of my "next train adventure" list.


----------



## Ispolkom

William W. said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like Amtrak should pass out free booze and have a party every time the EB is on-time coming out of ND. It seems like a special occasion to me these days.
> 
> 
> 
> No, the free booze should be for the epics, the 12+ hour late trains. I'll be on #7 on Tuesday. I live in hope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Give booze to pissed off sleeping car pax, starving/pissed off coach pax, and disheveled, caffeine-fueled OBS? What's the worst that could happen?
> 
> :unsure: hboy: :help:
Click to expand...

Well, I'd hope that the OBS wouldn't be drinking. That just isn't right. Otherwise, it's just another ride on that Hell-Bound Train, which should probably be the Empire Builder's new moniker.


----------



## NW cannonball

William W. said:


> I'm looking at taking it next January, during my college's winter break. That way, if the train disappears for a few days, I won't miss class.
> 
> Despite the delays, it still seems like one of the best routes scenery wise. It's definitely at the top of my "next train adventure" list.


"Scenery-wise" the CZ may be better, and the SWC at Raton (but not elsewhere), and the New River on the Card.

The best parts on the EB are (to my mind) - the Cascades, the Rockies (depending on season and train lateness) and the Upper Mississippi from Red Wing to La Crosse. YMMV.

And, if you like rolling prairies, Montana goes a long way beyond the Rockies.

The EB is the train I sometimes need to ride, but the scenery is always good.

Hope you enjoy.


----------



## NW cannonball

Not all the delays are due to the commonly cited "oil trains" "BNSF underinvestment" "track work" "bad dispatching" (I personally think the dispatchers in Fort Worth are doing a real good job, considering what they have to deal with)

There's the "normal" delays, that sometimes pile up and give the dispatchers ulcers. And the "headline" typical delays what with the oilfields and trackwork.

And then there's the random stuff on top of that - it just cascades (Pun intended)

Here's the unusual delays from my son's trip on #8 about a week ago -

Engine failed climbing to Stevens Pass, with the PV on the tail they couldn't make it with one P42 - 4.5 hours to get a BNSF helper and pilot.

Lost time out of slot -

In mid-ND crew saw Motorcycle-pickup collision - stopped to give aid - luckily RN's and EMT's on board stabilised victims while waiting half hour for local first responders -- out on the Hi-Line it is a long way from help.

Last big delay - almost to SPUD - got stuck behind an intermodal evolution near Saint Anthony - less than 5 miles from SPUD. Arrived SPUD about 12 hours late.

A mix of forseeable problems and one stop to aid and assist. On top of, but exacerbated by, the well-known chronic problems.

I'm guessing that overall, the EB gets slowly better on OTP over the next year or two. Remember the "Coast Starlate" -- like that. But slowly.


----------



## neroden

My crystal ball is pretty good on big picture long term stuff but not good enough at detail to predict the performance of the Empire Builder a year from now.

Odds are I'll be taking it next year, though, so I hope it gets better. :-(


----------



## montana mike

Looks like that one brief shining moment was just that--brief. Things appear to be back to normal delays this AM. Oh, well. It was fun while it lasted!!

I agree on the scenery comments. The current schedule sadly makes the traverse thru GNP a non-event (unless the EB is really late), but on the plus side the ride thru the Cascades is in more daylight.

;-)


----------



## yarrow

the run along the kootenai river in idaho in daylight on a late 7 makes up for a lot. especially if you are enjoying an extra breakfast


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The schedule will look similar, except for a text box that says "Notice of Discontinuance 180 days from the effective date of this schedule"


----------



## andersone

DP - Glacier detraining,,,

I think the East Side is the nicest,,, and to me the porch on the Many Glacier Hotel is the greatest spot on earth....

The West Side is Lake McDonald,,,, This summer I am getting off at EPK , going to Many Glacier and then West via renter, and returning to East because you can't pick up a renter on one side and drop it off on another,,, but if you only get one,,, go EAST


----------



## JayPea

I was just on that very porch at Many Glacier......and it is very beautiful....even though it was pouring down rain ar the time. Did the same thing..rented a car at East Glacier and drove west. Enjoyed every bit of it!


----------



## D.P. Roberts

andersone said:


> DP - Glacier detraining,,,
> 
> I think the East Side is the nicest,,, and to me the porch on the Many Glacier Hotel is the greatest spot on earth....
> 
> The West Side is Lake McDonald,,,, This summer I am getting off at EPK , going to Many Glacier and then West via renter, and returning to East because you can't pick up a renter on one side and drop it off on another,,, but if you only get one,,, go EAST





JayPea said:


> I was just on that very porch at Many Glacier......and it is very beautiful....even though it was pouring down rain ar the time. Did the same thing..rented a car at East Glacier and drove west. Enjoyed every bit of it!


Thanks to both of you for your advice. I agree that Many Glacier is beautiful... it's where we'd like to stay. Ideally, I'd like to avoid renting a car, at least while we visit Many Glacier - there are so many hikes and fun things to see & do in the area, it seems silly to pay for a rental car while we're not using it.

Our problem is that there's no Amtrak station anywhere near Many Glacier. Also, Many Glacier isn't on the park's free shuttle service - I know there's a private company that runs a shuttle on the east side, but it costs almost as much as renting a car.

We'll probably end up doing what we did last time - taking the EB to Whitefish & picking up a car there, as it was substantially cheaper than renting a car at any of the other stops. And, if our train next year is as late as #27 was for us this year, we won't arrive in Whitefish until 7:00 am. OTOH, if it's an "average" EB, we'll arrive at 3:00 am - and then what to you do? Try and get to a hotel for a few hours, or sleep in the rental car until the sun rises?

That's why I thought GPK would be better - even if the EB is running late, it's going to arrive in GPK earlier in the evening, and we can just walk across to the lodge. But how to get to Many Glacier from there?

It's hard enough to figure out how to get around Glacier, and when you factor in a train that can be anywhere from on time to 12+ hours late, it's almost impossible to "plan" anything.


----------



## andersone

the other oddity,,, if you pick up a renter on the east side you have to drop it on the east side,,, and vice versa,,,,,

I scheduled an extra night on the east to do same,, especially with the new "early" eastbound departure,,,,,,


----------



## montana mike

There are a couple of car rental places in East Glacier that I am aware of--Avis and Dollar. I believe both stay open until 9 PM at night, perhaps later if the EB is running late. You may want to check with them. They are just across the street from the Amtrak station in East Glacier.


----------



## JayPea

There is also a Budget Rent a Car in East Glacier, which I wasn't aware of until we went into one of the stores along the main drag in East Glacier and saw the sign in the store. The name of the place escapes me at the moment. Also, we rented from Dollar this time and found out that if the EB is running late you can leave your car at the station and drop the keys off in a drop box on the side of the station. They will pick the car up from there and settle the paperwork at a later time.


----------



## montana mike

Weekend is over--the "normal" delays of 5-7 hours back in the mix for #7 and #8 in ND and MT tonight-bummer....


----------



## andersone

from the road status map (can't post the link from this computer) it appears that GTTSR is still closed from Avalanche on the west to Jackson Glacier on the east....


----------



## RalphCT

andersone said:


> from the road status map (can't post the link from this computer) it appears that GTTSR is still closed from Avalanche on the west to Jackson Glacier on the east....


Park Service says they hope to have the entire Going to the Sun Road open by the Fourth of July. 

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## montana mike

A cautionary note. Even if it does open there is still going to be construction on parts of the road, along with some fairly extensive repairs where avalanches damaged the newly rebuilt road--it was a tough winter in the Park. The goal is indeed to have the road open by this weekend, but it's a day to day thing.....


----------



## TraneMan

We are doing good for time on #8 and they have to get a pumper truck to clear a clog. Some tried to flush a whole roll of toilet paper down the toilet!

-Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


----------



## TraneMan

-Sent from my iPhone 5 using Amtrak Forum App,


----------



## Bob Dylan

Looks like a promising career field! LOL


----------



## Ryan

Never a shortage of raw materials!


----------



## NE933

How many hours does it take to:

1. drain a coach, and to drain a sleeper, of toilet sewage

2. fill a coach, and to fill a sleeper, and to fill a diner, of fresh water?


----------



## andersone

Just checked the status of #7 to GPK,,, only 45 minutes late !!

There is a god?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

andersone said:


> Just checked the status of #7 to GPK,,, only 45 minutes late !!
> 
> There is a god?


And the god is called "Holiday Weekend".


----------



## Phil S

Well, who would have thunk -- the EBs are doing substantially better than the CZs. And here I made my Sept. res from PDX east via CZ so as to be more likely to make the Cardinal connection. Somebody tell me this is due to flooding along CZ and holiday (lack of) traffic along the Hi-Line and that all will be back to "normal" by the fall?


----------



## neroden

This is due to holiday lack of traffic along the High Line and flooding on the CZ route.



Not gonna promise you that there won't be more flooding on the CZ route, though...


----------



## montana mike

WellTrained said:


> Well, who would have thunk -- the EBs are doing substantially better than the CZs. And here I made my Sept. res from PDX east via CZ so as to be more likely to make the Cardinal connection. Somebody tell me this is due to flooding along CZ and holiday (lack of) traffic along the Hi-Line and that all will be back to "normal" by the fall?


I was just in conversation with several BNSF folks about how well the EBs were doing over the past few days. They said a combination of perfect weather, almost no construction, lower freight traffic and an "extended effort on the part of dispatchers to move the Empire Builders along" appeared to have made a big difference.

He assured me that the BNSF dispatchers will continue to work hard to keep the EB's moving, BUT that construction will once again ramp up this week thru October (except for Labor Day weekend) and freight traffic will be returning to more normal levels this week as well. He still feels 3-5 hour delays on average are likely, with some days doing better, especially over the weekends, when construction efforts are reduced. He felt that absent "external issues", the days of 10-12 hour delays should be behind us..........I truly hope so!!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Appreciate you keeping us up to date with inside info on the Builder and the Hi-Line Mike!!!


----------



## JayPea

Here is a photo I took last Friday while at Glacier Park:
Perhaps a harbinger of better times for the EB?????? The rainbow arches over the Hi-Line near East Glacier. I hope so; I can live with 3-5 hour delays. Maybe I shouldn't; maybe I should hold BNSF and the EB to a higher standard and storm and ***** and whine and refuse to ride the EB and tell everyone else to not ride it either. I'm not sure what that would accomplish other than to make me look like a petulant 3 year old, though


----------



## Bob Dylan

Great pic Jeff! And while the Mess on the Hi-Line isn't the best thing since sliced bread, anyone that takes it should be fully informed BY AMTRAK of all possibilities that can arise and what Amtrak will due for them when delays and Cancellations arise! Said people should Not be in a hurry!

If at all possible these trips should be scheduled on weekends and their trip planning should allow for all eventualities and include flexibility!!!

I Love the Builder and the High Line but probably won't ride it again until the fixes being slowly worked on by the Railroads and Amtrak are farther along! (Say maybe next year!!!)


----------



## andersone

Jay you made my day with that pic,,, in exactly a month i hope to see the exact same thing - although i can survive withouit the rainbow,,,, were you headed east or west? and if i might ask, what time did you arrive in GPK ? ( i am guessing that is a morning pic eastbound?)


----------



## CHamilton

An interesting article is on Trains News Wire (behind their firewall, alas) about the Havre vendor of chicken dinners, and how they are coping with the perennially-late Builder.


----------



## montana mike

I bet it is indeed a challenge. The very erratic timing of each Builder must be driving them nuts. And as others have stated, no one wants a fried chicken dinner at 2 AM, well, not many people at least!! This was such a nice "local" touch. I would hate to see it disappear.


----------



## JayPea

andersone said:


> Jay you made my day with that pic,,, in exactly a month i hope to see the exact same thing - although i can survive withouit the rainbow,,,, were you headed east or west? and if i might ask, what time did you arrive in GPK ? ( i am guessing that is a morning pic eastbound?)


Actually, this was taken from our rental car. We were westbound on our way to West Glacier. It was in the morning, so we were actually heading into the rain. And rain it did.....it was pouring by the time we got to West Glacier. We arrived from Seattle via the EB about half an hour late. Just late enough we were able to have breakfast. We left East Glacier westbound the same night this was taken....about 1:40 late, not too bad for the EB.


----------



## montana mike

Strike up the band and celebrate. #8 arrived in CHI "only 37 minutes late" today (well, we just have to ignore the extra 3 hours of travel time tacked on on top of this for now). It will be interesting to see how the EBs do after the big Holiday weekend. So, with perfect weather (warm but not too hot), no floods and construction and freight track just gearing back up today that weekend #8 just sailed on thru the Hi-Line!!!!

Bravo!


----------



## adt1982

#8 from yesterday just left Minot on-time!

It arrived in Minot 8 minutes early after leaving Stanley 44 minutes late.


----------



## andersone

Another day of project on time for 7 at GPK? Is it still the holiday hangover?


----------



## montana mike

Three of the four EB's currently chugging along are very late again, only yesterday's #7, which should arrive on time in SEA/PDX is making good time. #8 into CHI today is likely to be 5 hours late-pretty much as expected for this summer's travel time.

:-(


----------



## JayPea

Of course Monday's #8 was not helped by the 3 hour+ delay due to freight problems at Minot and a 3 hour+ delay west of Leavenworth on yesterday's#8. I think it's more a case of extenuating circumstances for them more than anything else.


----------



## montana mike

And I think I jinxed #7 in WA this AM. Now running about 90 minutes behind. Bummer. BNSF says the construction is back in full swing and freight traffic is back to pre-holiday levels as of today, so it will indeed be interesting to see how the EBs fare in the coming weeks of summer. One thing we haven't seen a lot of are heat restrictions-until now. Temps in western MT are forecasted to approach 90+ over the coming week.


----------



## elliewen

Could you clarify what a heat restriction is? Thanks!!


----------



## EB_OBS

elliewen said:


> Could you clarify what a heat restriction is? Thanks!!


When the temperature is over 91 degrees, the maximum authorized speed drops to 60 MPH from 79 MPH.


----------



## montana mike

Actually, last year BNSF started these restrictions at 85 degrees.

:-(


----------



## EB_OBS

montana mike said:


> Actually, last year BNSF started these restrictions at 85 degrees.
> 
> :-(


Yep. I believe they lowered it last year because the tracks were in such bad shape.

I haven't seen the actual current Notice from the BNSF yet. Could be 85 again this year.


----------



## andersone

sounds like a postman's nightmare,,,,

snow, rain , heat,,,,

maybe we need douglas adam's assitance


----------



## George Harris

montana mike said:


> Actually, last year BNSF started these restrictions at 85 degrees.
> 
> :-(


The heat restriction is not put in place at the same temperature everywhere. The number will be higher on much of the Southwest Chief route because the high/low/average temeratures are higher. Heat restriction is for the purpose of reducing the force the train applies to the track laterally as at higher temperatures the rails are in compression which gives them a tendency to shift sideways when pushed by the back and forth forces of the trains. These forces happen even on straight track because the world is not perfect.


----------



## MSP_Train_Hopper

I just got off the eastbound Empire Builder this afternoon in St Paul at 1:30 (boarded in Minot last night at midnight). Over breakfast this morning I was talking to a lady who boarded in Seattle. She said the Seattle section was stopped in a siding and couldn't get enough power going to get over the Cascades. Twice they backed down to a nearby town to get a running start, yet they still faltered. The third time they had a BNSF engine help pull them over. A couple other people in the lounge confirmed this story.

I'm not too sure how traffic went on the Hi-line as I slept from Rugby to Fargo. From Fargo to Wadena we crawled along at about 30mph, and was able to pick up some speed afterwards but still kept loosing time.

The crew went dead outside Little Falls, and the replacement crew was there in just a few minutes. However we were delayed for about 20 minutes as the new crew couldn't get ahold of the dispatcher via radio or phone to release the train.

One note about breakfast was that the omelette was quite good and the breakfast potatoes were crisp and hot. The service was good, but I felt bad for the crew because of the table settings they had to work with. We all know how the Corelle plates are gone as well as the flowers and the linen napkins & table cloths. While they used glass juice glasses, the coffee mugs were just the paper ones from the cafe and didn't come with a lid or sleeve. Also the menus were black and white photo copies of the real menu on plain paper which I was surprised at. Are paper coffee cups and photo copied menus the new norm?


----------



## fairviewroad

Speaking of heat, Wenatchee is forecast to hit triple-digit highs for at least 5 consecutive days starting Sunday. Add to that is a wildfire just north of Wenatchee

that is filling the area with smoke. (though the fire itself is well north of the tracks)


----------



## montana mike

And #8 arrived in CHI 5 hours and 40 minutes late today--pretty much as one would expect for a weekday EB these days. I wonder if they held the LSL--I would hope so.

:-(


----------



## JayPea

There were extenuating circumstances here, too: the EB lost 3 1/2 hours in the Cascades because it didn't have enough power to get over Stevens Pass. Had to back down and make a run for it three times before giving up and having a BNSF engine attached to it. It was over 3 hours late out of Spokane. Absent that, it would have "only" been a couple of hours late. And the LSL was held for it I understand.


----------



## PRae_Train

Appears the LSL left CHI only a half our after EB's arrival, so apparently did hold.

Seems like it would be quite a dash to get the appropriate luggage and passengers transferred.


----------



## crescent2

Re Trainhopper's and JP's posts on not having enough power: Is Amtrak that short of engines? With all the other, non-controllable problems with the EB, why would they not supply enough power to pull their train? That seems to be something within Amtrak's control and easily calculated.

If Amtrak is really that short of equipment, that's very disconcerting. Or was this related to some freak mishap such as having lots of engines needing repair at one time?

Just surprised at the "I think I can, I think I can..., oops, I can't!" scenario.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Amtrak is having a severe shortage of engines.


----------



## crescent2

That's just the pits then!


----------



## neroden

The problem, which is really a typical pattern for Amtrak due to its starvation budgets, is this:

- Amtrak ordered just enough locomotives to cover its current services plus a little bit of expansion.

- Then, over the years, various locomotives got wrecked in crashes or fires or whatever.

- Simultaneously a whole bunch of new state-funded services started, meaning more demand for locomotives.

This is a recipe for a locomotive shortage. The new state-funded locomotives should help when they arrive, which unfortunately won't be for several years.


----------



## montana mike

#8 in MN now over 7 hours behind--a brutally slow run thru ND today.

:-((


----------



## EB_OBS

Amtrak averages 17 locomotives short everyday system wide.


----------



## JayPea

montana mike said:


> #8 in MN now over 7 hours behind--a brutally slow run thru ND today.
> 
> :-((


And no extenuating circumstances this time. Too bad because it had been doing reasonably well. Westbound the EB has been doing fairly well.


----------



## William W.

Good news for anyone taking the EB in the next week:

A large trough of cool air is descending over the upper great plains, and the midwest. This is due to the atmospheric disturbance caused by the mega-typhoon hitting Japan. It will result in many areas experiencing temperatures 10-20 degrees F below average.

Hopefully this means that the EB will avoid having to deal with too many heat restrictions, at least for the next week.


----------



## JayPea

There may be some restrictions here in Washington though. It is going to be nice and hot. On Sunday some forecasts even have Spokane hitting 100 degrees, which hasn't happened since 2009.


----------



## Bob Dylan

You should a stayed in Glacier till Sept. Jeff! LOL


----------



## JayPea

jimhudson said:


> You should a stayed in Glacier till Sept. Jeff! LOL


Or have gone a week later. It's been beautiful there ever since we left. How's that for timing?


----------



## andersone

ahh to be able to stay in Glacier til September,,, and poor #7 is only three and a half late into Minot today,,,,,pleaase Lord, no more pads to the sched before I depart in three weeks


----------



## montana mike

Looks like the schedule has settled in to 4-5 hours late into CHI and back to 2-3 hours late into SEA/PDX, even on weekends. The construction pace has picked up according to BNSF. BTW--BNSF expects freight traffic to increase later this summer due to several unrelated issues, which may possibly add to the current delays for a while.

At least the delays are becoming more "predictable".


----------



## andersone

so much for the only consistency in life is change,,,,, and I suppose I should be happy to eat a second dinner on the trip out ,,,,,,


----------



## elliewen

Positive news: It looks like the #7 has done pretty well for several days, running only 1-2 hours behind and sometimes even less! Does this seem like a trend? I don't watch very closely so I am not sure how common this is.

I am taking it this weekend and now wondering if I don't need the survival rations I packed in case of an 11-hour delay. But as I learned from this forum: expect the worst, hope for the best!


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

If you take your "survival rations" you will not need them. If you leave them at the house, your train will be 30 hours late. Sorry this trains got issues. It changes day to day.


----------



## montana mike

Yes, #7 has done somewhat better lately, but #8 continues its 4-5 hour delays into CHI most days. In talks with BNSF folks Amtrak is pressing them hard to try to get back to the "old" schedule some time this Fall, but BNSF has so far said it is too early to consider doing so and they will revisit options in a month or so. Removing the padding, given the current delays being experienced would mean 7+ hour delays into CHI most days and 2+ hour delays into SEA/PDX--certainly not comforting thoughts. I agree with BNSF that construction needs to wind down along with perhaps modestly less agricultural related traffic to get a sense of what can be done to try to return to the old schedule. One BNSF person surmised that it would be 2016 before the Hi-Line has sufficient capacity to run trains like BNSF and Amtrak would like them to run.

6-17: Not a good start for #7 leaving CHI today. Already over three hours late and still in CHI. :-(


----------



## NW cannonball

#7(17) seems to have lost 4+ hours at Chicago - it's not *only *the Hi-Line that's hurting the EB's timekeeping.

As others have reported, there are intermittent problems at CHI, and on the CP from CHI to MSP, and occasional engine problems (like my son experienced last month, and others recently -- not able to get over Stevens Pass Eastbound without a BNSF helper (not to mention, on his trip 1 month back, getting stuck at Saint Anthony while a total Charlie Foxtrot freight evolution blocked the main for more than an hour - only 7 miles from SPUD)).

At least with the BNSF Hi-Line problems there's money going to fix that - cause it's hurting BNSF - and ND farmers - and intermodal -- and --

The *other* contributing factors have been mostly hidden by the big hi-line problems - *but* - "4 hours late departing Chicago" *or *"haven't enough power to get over the pass" -- these are also serious concerns.

Today it seems that except for 7(17) the EB trains are doing better than average -- and it's not even a weekend.


----------



## NW cannonball

MSP_Train_Hopper said:


> I just got off the eastbound Empire Builder this afternoon in St Paul at 1:30 (boarded in Minot last night at midnight). Over breakfast this morning I was talking to a lady who boarded in Seattle. She said the Seattle section was stopped in a siding and couldn't get enough power going to get over the Cascades. Twice they backed down to a nearby town to get a running start, yet they still faltered. The third time they had a BNSF engine help pull them over. A couple other people in the lounge confirmed this story.


Cut that quote - but --

Not enough power to make Stevens Pass?

Seems pretty sorry - see my other post.


----------



## CHamilton

So far, the wildfires in Washington have not affected trains 7 and 8, but trains 27 and 28 may be affected by a fire near Cheney, WA. http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/wildfire-burning-near-fishtrap-lake/27042992


----------



## JayPea

CHamilton said:


> So far, the wildfires in Washington have not affected trains 7 and 8, but trains 27 and 28 may be affected by a fire near Cheney, WA. http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/wildfire-burning-near-fishtrap-lake/27042992


Tonight's 28 got through with no trouble. Winds are expected to continue all night in the 15-20 mph range, and the area, which I know very well, features some very rugged terrain. Add to that bone-dry conditions and it makes for some tough conditions for firefighters.


----------



## JayPea

Heard an uncomfirmed report that the UP line, which runs a mile or two south of the BNSF(and Amtrak line) in this area is on fire: Power poles, ties, signals, etc. Hope that isn't a sign of things to come for the BNSF if this report is true.


----------



## NW cannonball

Totally off-the-wall -

Amtrak offers me a MSP - NOL routing - on the eb#8 and the City of New Orleans.

A very good price.

Is the EB-CONO still guaranteed connection?

Want to go that way.


----------



## OBS

If they offer it, it would be a guaranteed connection.


----------



## elliewen

Thanks, JayPea. I am taking the EB today and crossing my fingers. I will post if I hear anything useful.


----------



## JayPea

Just checked the Track-a-Train feature and apparently 27 is on the move out of Spokane so nothing extraordinary has appeared to affect the rail line yet.


----------



## CHamilton

27 is beyond the fire area near Cheney, and is scheduled into Pasco 15 minutes late. So it seems to have gotten through with minimal delay.


----------



## TraneMan

NW cannonball said:


> Totally off-the-wall -
> 
> Amtrak offers me a MSP - NOL routing - on the eb#8 and the City of New Orleans.
> 
> A very good price.
> 
> Is the EB-CONO still guaranteed connection?
> 
> Want to go that way.


I was looking at that last night! Thinking of a quick trip there in Feb.


----------



## TraneMan

Friend conductor posted that there was broken rail, (Didn't say where, some where around the Fargo area) so that's why #8 was sitting in Fargo.


----------



## lrdc9_metroplitan_sub

Ww


----------



## CHamilton

All Aboard Washington﻿ is reporting that the BNSF tracks are now closed in the vicinity of the Fishtrap Lake fire until further notice. This will affect tonight's trains 27 and 28.


----------



## IHC

Today's #8 ( 18 ) into Chicago is showing a service disruption. What's up?


----------



## TraneMan

IHC said:


> Today's #8 ( 18 ) into Chicago is showing a service disruption. What's up?


In my post this morning, it was sitting back due to broken rails, it's moving now and it's in Winona now.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## JayPea

CHamilton said:


> All Aboard Washington﻿ is reporting that the BNSF tracks are now closed in the vicinity of the Fishtrap Lake fire until further notice. This will affect tonight's trains 27 and 28.


A report on Trainorders is saying the UP line was heavily damaged in the fire and that they will be detouring over the BNSF line. If true either the BNSF line isn't shut down or any shutdown won't last long.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Boy, when it rains it pours on the Hi-Ine! Just what the Builder needs, more Freights on its route! Maybe they'll put out a temporary schedule saying the Builder will arrive sometime this week into CHI and SEA!!!

Hope the fire is out and no-one is homeless or dead!!!! The weather witch doctors are promising an El Nino in the Pacific for Fall with more Rain etc Hope they're right as the West, NW and the SW really need it!!!


----------



## JayPea

Jim, so far no homes have burned and there was some cattle lost but no human injuries. Unfortunately it is also at 0% containment. Some rain is forecast for midweek. The UP only runs a few trains a day so shouldn't be that much of a problem. I did see that 28 left Portland on time though it somehow lost an hour between there and Vancouver. I'm sure if the BNSF line was shut down a bustitution would have occurred.


----------



## JayPea

28 last night and 27 this morning got through with no problems. Fire said to be 40% contained and officials are still looking for the likely suspects in this man-made fire, three morons who were shooting tanerite, an explosive.


----------



## elliewen

Good morning from the #7/27, currently on alternate (and more scenic) routing until Minot. The assistant conductor and SCA were not aware of any concerns due to the WA/OR fires thus far.

The biggest news from the train is the cutback of beverage service in the sleepers. Coffee and juice are only served 6a-11a and you are only supposed to get the two small bottles of water provided on arrival. Congrats, Amtrak - you did squeeze another $11 out of me in bottled water purchases, because I have a medical condition where I have to stay very hydrated. I would have loved to have known about this change before boarding!


----------



## montana mike

Good grief. When I fly coach on the airlines I can get as much water as I want (I can even get juice and soft drinks!!!). Amtrak--If ANYONE is reading these posts for heaven's sake you are doing the absolutely wrong things. Think carefully what you are doing!!!!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

montana mike said:


> Good grief. When I fly coach on the airlines I can get as much water as I want (I can even get juice and soft drinks!!!). Amtrak--If ANYONE is reading these posts for heaven's sake you are doing the absolutely wrong things. Think carefully what you are doing!!!!


And how long are you on the airplane compared to being on an LD train? Not being an apologist, just adding food for thought.


----------



## VentureForth

elliewen said:


> Good morning from the #7/27, currently on alternate (and more scenic) routing until Minot. The assistant conductor and SCA were not aware of any concerns due to the WA/OR fires thus far.
> 
> The biggest news from the train is the cutback of beverage service in the sleepers. Coffee and juice are only served 6a-11a and you are only supposed to get the two small bottles of water provided on arrival. Congrats, Amtrak - you did squeeze another $11 out of me in bottled water purchases, because I have a medical condition where I have to stay very hydrated. I would have loved to have known about this change before boarding!


I don't recall that the water service was to be cut back per the service issues announcement that came out earlier this year. Unless they were announced as identified in this thread, I'd call Amtrak Customer Service and start complaining.

That being said, potable tap water (though icky as it may be, it's allegedly safe), is generally available, though that can run out, too...

Interestingly, that thread died out 6 weeks ago. Not even on the 12 active pages of this forum any more. I guess the outrage is over. I see that outrage on the Auto Train is still active, though.


----------



## Ispolkom

VentureForth said:


> I don't recall that the water service was to be cut back per the service issues announcement that came out earlier this year. Unless they were announced as identified in this thread, I'd call Amtrak Customer Service and start complaining.
> 
> That being said, potable tap water (though icky as it may be, it's allegedly safe), is generally available, though that can run out, too...
> 
> Interestingly, that thread died out 6 weeks ago. Not even on the 12 active pages of this forum any more. I guess the outrage is over. I see that outrage on the Auto Train is still active, though.


FWIW, there was a case of water out on the 0730 sleeper on July 1. I had to ask the SCA for ice, though.


----------



## elliewen

To clarify/amplify: the SCA said they are still giving her 4 cases of water and she is happy to hand them out. She is just not allowed to leave the water out in the open, and she is not sure how much longer she will receive the 4-case allotments. She said this policy started a few weeks ago and was very apologetic. My fear, given my unique issue, is that the train will run out of bottled water, free or paid, and I will be left high and dry (forgive the pun). So I am headed to the cafe car to buy yet more $2.25 bottles!


----------



## SarahZ

elliewen said:


> To clarify/amplify: the SCA said they are still giving her 4 cases of water and she is happy to hand them out. She is just not allowed to leave the water out in the open, and she is not sure how much longer she will receive the 4-case allotments. She said this policy started a few weeks ago and was very apologetic. My fear, given my unique issue, is that the train will run out of bottled water, free or paid, and I will be left high and dry (forgive the pun). So I am headed to the cafe car to buy yet more $2.25 bottles!


If you're in a sleeper, you can order bottled water with dinner. You're allowed two refills, and I've never had an issue getting a beverage "to go" at the end of the meal. I bet you could ask for 1-2 bottles of water. That could save you some money, especially if you keep refilling them from the potable water spigot.


----------



## JoeBas

As anything else, YMMV applies when it comes to the beverage and ice situation in the sleepers.

FWIW anecdotally, my trips on 19/20 were the same as usual, sans the Cranberry juice - Apple, Orange, Water and Ice were left out and readily available for consumption on demand. On 1/2, the ice had to be obtained from the cafe car by the SCA on demand, as "Amtrak had taken away their coolers". Juice was left out and coffee available through the day, with water available on request from the SCA. Both SCAs did mention the "Only 2 bottles of water per sleeper cabin" restriction, but this was not enforced.


----------



## Bob Dylan

And the slippery slope continues to have more artificial ice ( pun untended!) added by the Cut Squad @/60 Mass headed by Moe, Curly and Larry!

Whats next? Coming soon to a Train near you, " No Outside Food or Drink Allowed!".

The Mico Managers on Capitol Hill want Amtrak to follow the Airline Model and cut as much as possible and start adding fees! Can't happen here! Just sit back and watch!

Get off my Lawn!!!!!!!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

elliewen said:


> To clarify/amplify: the SCA said they are still giving her 4 cases of water and she is happy to hand them out. She is just not allowed to leave the water out in the open, and she is not sure how much longer she will receive the 4-case allotments. She said this policy started a few weeks ago and was very apologetic. My fear, given my unique issue, is that the train will run out of bottled water, free or paid, and I will be left high and dry (forgive the pun). So I am headed to the cafe car to buy yet more $2.25 bottles!


If she has the bottles, why don't you just ask her for more as you need them?


----------



## montana mike

Actually, I would be OK if I got the SAME treatment as the airlines. I fly a lot as well and in First Class there is no such thing as one water per flight (I have access throughout the flight to a wide variety of beverages and snacks-on my last long flight the attendants brought around cookies, chips, pretzels, magazines, etc...), plus the attendants still do take care of you for not just meals but other "creature" comforts during the flights on many of the airlines, especially the longer flights. Look at what you now get on any transatlantic flights for example in First Class and compare this to what Amtrak has stripped away--there is now NO comparison between the two, sadly (the video and communication options alone on the airlines blow away what Amtrak offers and even the comfort of the fully reclining seats in First Class beats those 2" thick mattresses in the roomettes).......and ironically the fare differences are similar now!!


----------



## jis

On the LD trains we took over the last week, mostly 48/49 and 5/6, there was no noticeable water bottle restrictions in Sleeper. On each segment I consume three or more bottles of water, and had no difficulty getting more as I needed. Ice had to be obtained upon request from the SCA. But since I seldom use ice, that did not affect me at all. Coffee was available throughout the day as were orange and apple juice. After having read all the dire news here I was expecting much worse. But that did not materialize, thankfully. So now I plan to take such matters discussed here with a large dollop of salt, in a manner of speaking. 



montana mike said:


> Actually, I would be OK if I got the SAME treatment as the airlines. I fly a lot as well and in First Class there is no such thing as one water per flight (I have access throughout the flight to a wide variety of beverages and snacks-on my last long flight the attendants brought around cookies, chips, pretzels, magazines, etc...), plus the attendants still do take care of you for not just meals but other "creature" comforts during the flights on many of the airlines, especially the longer flights. Look at what you now get on any transatlantic flights for example in First Class and compare this to what Amtrak has stripped away--there is now NO comparison between the two, sadly (the video and communication options alone on the airlines blow away what Amtrak offers and even the comfort of the fully reclining seats in First Class beats those 2" thick mattresses in the roomettes).......and ironically the fare differences are similar now!!


I really like the nice touch of freshly baked cookies on United domestic FC on trans-continental flights. I actually look forward to it. They have started doing that even in the Newark - Orlando sector, at least on the international 757 continuation flights, which I always make sure I am on. Afterall that is where you get the lie flat BF seats! In my opinion Intercontinental business class of the American carriers is these days is better than Amtrak LD in terms of overall service quality. But it is also a somewhat apples to oranges comparison. I think the hard product that Amtrak has is better. But the soft product provided by airlines is better than the Amtrak provided soft product both in quality and consistency.


----------



## andersone

leaving on the 6th and will provide the aqua update,,,

on a brighter note, NPR this morning said Glacier had more than 2 million visitors,,,

I wonder how many of them arrived on the EB?


----------



## Ispolkom

jis said:


> So now I plan to take such matters discussed here with a large dollop of salt, in a manner of speaking.


Amtrak on-board staff often justify their acts by saying that it's official policy, regardless of whether that's true or not. Like you, I've long since stopped believing that.


----------



## jebr

Yeah, I had no trouble getting juice, coffee, or water on either the Cardinal or the Crescent. On the Zephyr there wasn't any juice or water sitting out on the table in my car, but the next car over did have it and I saw it up top next to the coffee makers (but wasn't open, so I didn't open it on my 6-hour journey.)

I think they may be slightly rationing it, but it's more than the "two per room" rule that some SCA's are using as an excuse to not give out more water.

There is also plenty of potable water in the spigot on each train, and I would not worry about that running out (it's the same water as what the showers and sinks use, so a glass of water is very small compared to the other uses.)


----------



## montana mike

andersone said:


> leaving on the 6th and will provide the aqua update,,,
> 
> on a brighter note, NPR this morning said Glacier had more than 2 million visitors,,,
> 
> I wonder how many of them arrived on the EB?


Good Question on how many arrive via Amtrak. I live in WFH and by far the most visitors to the Park arrive via their own cars. The next largest segment is via the airlines. Glacier Park Int'l airport (25 miles away) has between 14-18 flights each day from a variety of major hubs (SLC, SEA, MSP, ATL, CHI, LAX, LAS, etc..). Next would be Amtrak, with one eastbound and one westbound train each day. In the summer time on average, about 70-80 pax get off in WFH each day both ways (not all of these folks go to the Park). Perhaps 15-20 people get off at West Glacier and about 50 people on and off at east glacier.


----------



## MrFSS

montana mike said:


> andersone said:
> 
> 
> 
> leaving on the 6th and will provide the aqua update,,,
> 
> on a brighter note, NPR this morning said Glacier had more than 2 million visitors,,,
> 
> I wonder how many of them arrived on the EB?
> 
> 
> 
> Good Question on how many arrive via Amtrak. I live in WFH and by far the most visitors to the Park arrive via their own cars. The next largest segment is via the airlines. Glacier Park Int'l airport (25 miles away) has between 14-18 flights each day from a variety of major hubs (SLC, SEA, MSP, ATL, CHI, LAX, LAS, etc..). Next would be Amtrak, with one eastbound and one westbound train each day. In the summer time on average, about 70-80 pax get off in WFH each day both ways (not all of these folks go to the Park). Perhaps 15-20 people get off at West Glacier and about 50 people on and off at east glacier.
Click to expand...

So, Amtrak is a drop in the bucket compared to the other modes of travel, I guess.


----------



## montana mike

Yup.


----------



## CHamilton

The politicians are concerned about agriculture, but not so much about passengers.



> Sen. John Hoeven (R-N.D.) ...earlier last week ... urged BNSF executives to continue relieving car backlogs on agriculture shipments prior to the fall harvest. BNSF has reduced past-due grain cars in North Dakota from about 8,000 earlier this year to 4,000, and plans to commit additional resources, such as spotting 450 cars per day to reduce the backlog to about 2,000 past-due cars before fall starts, said Hoeven. In addition, BNSF has committed to offering more shuttle trains this fall than it did in 2013.
> 
> Hoeven has asked railroad officials to come to North Dakota to hear directly from the state’s agriculture commodity groups, and he expects a meeting to take place within the first two weeks of August.


----------



## SarahZ

I was on the CONO, Crescent, and CL last week.

On every train, I had 2-3 bottles of water waiting for me in my roomette. The SCAs all said that they had more water bottles available and that I need only ask.

Ice was available on the Crescent. On the CONO, my SCA stopped by every so often to ask if I needed ice, as she would happily bring some from the cafe car if needed some.

Coffee was available all day on all three trains. Additionally, there was apple and orange juice on all three trains. I didn't check for cranberry, as I don't drink it.

On the CL, my roomette door broke and refused to open wider than 3", so I was moved into a sleeper that doubled as the crew dorm (regular sleeper, not a transdorm). My SCA mentioned that coffee was available in that car, but if I wanted juice, it was in the other car (he was working both). I was the only sleeper passenger in that car, so it made sense that they wouldn't have all of the beverages. It was no big deal to walk to the next car to get juice.

Honestly, I didn't notice any differences, since I've had to ask the SCA for water on busy trains in the past.


----------



## VentureForth

elliewen said:


> To clarify/amplify: the SCA said they are still giving her 4 cases of water and she is happy to hand them out. She is just not allowed to leave the water out in the open, and she is not sure how much longer she will receive the 4-case allotments. She said this policy started a few weeks ago and was very apologetic. My fear, given my unique issue, is that the train will run out of bottled water, free or paid, and I will be left high and dry (forgive the pun). So I am headed to the cafe car to buy yet more $2.25 bottles!


Yeah, ya know what? Don't be paying for water. IF your attendant runs out, get it from the next car. Prove there is a demand. Don't allow them to just cut cut cut...


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sounds like top management issued a policy directive to the line managers for the OBS to cut the amount of water,coffee and juice to " save money" but that the OBS, the ones responsible for good customer service, are trying to maintain a higher quality of service that Sleeping Car Passengers actually pay for, expect and deserve!

Hopefully none of these good OBS will get in trouble with the bean counters because doing their jobs prevents the troops in the Muddle East from getting hot meals as some idiot Congress critter actually claimed!

Let them eat cake indeed!


----------



## Ryan

jimhudson said:


> Sounds like top management issued a policy directive to the line managers for the OBS to cut the amount of water,coffee and juice to " save money" but that the OBS, the ones responsible for good customer service, are trying to maintain a higher quality of service that Sleeping Car Passengers actually pay for, expect and deserve!
> 
> Hopefully none of these good OBS will get in trouble with the bean counters because doing their jobs prevents the troops in the Muddle East from getting hot meals as some idiot Congress critter actually claimed!
> 
> Let them eat cake indeed!


One could also construct the alternative narrative that lazy SCAs aren't doing their jobs and placing the blame on management from the facts we have here.

"I'd love to help you, but I'm just not allowed to go get you some more water!"


----------



## Bob Dylan

That is also true Ryan, but the Majority of the OBS Employees still take pride in their job and try to provide good service to their customers!

I've said it before, the Suits need to quit riding a desk and get out on the trains and talk with the customers and the people who keep the trains rolling

Making policy in meetings without information from those affected by the policy is the worst way to manage! My way or the highway doesn't cut it!!


----------



## MrFSS

RyanS said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like top management issued a policy directive to the line managers for the OBS to cut the amount of water,coffee and juice to " save money" but that the OBS, the ones responsible for good customer service, are trying to maintain a higher quality of service that Sleeping Car Passengers actually pay for, expect and deserve!
> 
> Hopefully none of these good OBS will get in trouble with the bean counters because doing their jobs prevents the troops in the Muddle East from getting hot meals as some idiot Congress critter actually claimed!
> 
> Let them eat cake indeed!
> 
> 
> 
> One could also construct the alternative narrative that lazy SCAs aren't doing their jobs and placing the blame on management from the facts we have here.
> 
> "I'd love to help you, but I'm just not allowed to go get you some more water!"
Click to expand...

I have no way to prove it, but I tend to agree with Ryan. From a lot of the feedback we have in this thread, even today, it looks like there hasn't been a reduction in water, etc being available. Though, you may have to ask for it.


----------



## Bob Dylan

We have several members that are Active and recently retired Amtrak employees including OBS, I think we can believe them so it will be interesting to find out if this actually is a policy or just lazy control freak OBS doing their own thing! I agree there are some of these unfortunately!!


----------



## JoeBas

Hearing it from more than one, it seems like it's "Policy", that is being encouraged on a commissary-basis, but not strictly "Enforced" as of yet, and that the SCAs are just trying to take care of folks.


----------



## Ryan

MrFSS said:


> I have no way to prove it, but I tend to agree with Ryan. From a lot of the feedback we have in this thread, even today, it looks like there hasn't been a reduction in water, etc being available. Though, you may have to ask for it.


In reality, I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.

It's highly likely that some manager somewhere said something like "try and do a little bit to conserve some water", which gets turned into something between "Business as usual, waters are next to the coffeemaker" and "NO WATERS FOR YOU BECAUSE MANAGEMENT HATES PASSENGERS AND I DO TOO!!!" depending on the individual worker.


----------



## George Harris

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/228089043/82/Shelby-to-Sandpoint-Hi-Line-BNSF-337-9-Miles

This is a 70 plus page report discussing the heavy traffic increases in the Northwest, which specifically includes the Empire Builder route.

In case the link does not work, the title of the report is Heavy Traffic Still Ahead, dated February 2014, prepared for WORC, which is the Western Organization of Resource Councils


----------



## TraneMan

On our recent trip on the EB. #7 we had ice and juice and water out by the coffee stand all times. then on our #8 return trip, Gul had 4 bottles of water in our room, and he brought in ice for our water.. Then every now and then he would bring juice or pop along with ice for us.

I was coming down with a cold, so he brought OJ more often for me.


----------



## William W.

I've noticed that the western LD trains tend to be better stocked than the eastern trains. My sleeping car always had ample juice, water, and ice. Since I was sick during that trip, I drank a lot of water, so the sleeping car attendant offered to bring me a bucket of ice with bottles of water in it each night. He was the best one I've ever had (and he got a large tip).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I don't think they are rationing water so much as preventing gross abuse of readily available water (I.e. Taking 15 bottles, 12 of which go into your suitcase)


----------



## montana mike

TraneMan said:


> On our recent trip on the EB. #7 we had ice and juice and water out by the coffee stand all times. then on our #8 return trip, Gul had 4 bottles of water in our room, and he brought in ice for our water.. Then every now and then he would bring juice or pop along with ice for us.
> 
> I was coming down with a cold, so he brought OJ more often for me.


Gul is the best!!! we have had him as our attendant on several occasions. Amtrak is lucky to have him on board.


----------



## Henry Kisor

Service disruption listed for No. 8 out of Fargo the 22nd. Anyone know what happened? That train was 4 hours 6 minutes late leaving Spokane account freight problem on route of No. 28 the 21st.

I presume the passengers are then bused to their destinations.

Got a friend on that train.


----------



## Grandpa D

Henry Kisor said:


> Service disruption listed for No. 8 out of Fargo the 22nd. Anyone know what happened?


'Track-A-Train' looks like 8(20) took the Surrey cutoff. I haven't seen anything about a reason.


----------



## Ispolkom

I thought that it might have something to do with the massive fire in Williston, but #8 got through before that started. The article talks about a half-mile evacuation zone, which from Google Maps would seem to include the Hi Line. I wonder if the track is closed.


----------



## EB_OBS

Grandpa D said:


> Henry Kisor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Service disruption listed for No. 8 out of Fargo the 22nd. Anyone know what happened?
> 
> 
> 
> 'Track-A-Train' looks like 8(20) took the Surrey cutoff. I haven't seen anything about a reason.
Click to expand...

Washout on the Devils Lake Subdivision.


----------



## montana mike

Wow-what a summer for the EB's!!!

:-((((((


----------



## tim49424

I am in Chicago in the Metropolitan Lounge and will be boarding #7 this afternoon. Hopefully there are no long delays in departure......not really concerned about delays once I'm on the train as I'm headed to PDX and will be staying there the weekend. I'll be headed back east on the CS and CZ, Monday & Tuesday.


----------



## lyke99

I think GML hit it on the head with the water. Yesterday before departing Chicago, several members of an America By Rail tour group were hoarding the water bottles set out on the Empire Builder's 0730 car as if they were filled with money. From Roomette 2 we saw one guy grab and dart off with 8(!) bottles of water. When that case of water was gone, the SCA didn't set any more out - probably out of concern that she'd be out of water before nightfall.

As for ice, we were westbound on the Empire Builder of 7/8/14 and the attendant in the 0731 car said she didn't have ice on the car due to budget cuts, but she was happy to run to the dining car for a bucket of ice when it was cocktail time in our room.

I wouldn't be surprised if yesterday's tour group were encouraged by their guide to stock up on water. On our 7/8/14 trip, a tour group was encouraged by their guide to show up for breakfast and lunch as soon as service began. As a result, the dining car started breakfast service at 6:30 and began a waitlist at 6:45. Lunch was scheduled to start at 11:30 so by 11:15 there was a line stretching most of the length of the 0730 car. It's a train ride people, chill out!


----------



## jebr

And now an ill passenger.

From TO:



> Due to an ill passenger, Amtrak Train 8(21) has been contaminated; the contamination
> 
> will need to be professionally cleaned before Amtrak employees will be permitted to
> enter to prepare it for the equipment's next departure.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Who does "Professional cleaning" on Amtrak cars? Certainly not the crews in the Chicago yards!!

Sounds like a contract job, maybe Ghost Busters is available??


----------



## William W.

Station agent says that there's a tour group on today's train.

"I'm going to be stuck on a train with an obnoxious tour group for three days? Does tomorrow's train still have a roomette available?"

hboy: I couldn't imagine.


----------



## VentureForth

Well, it's about time they professionaly cleaned the train!


----------



## OBS

The Operations Standards update dated 6/18/14 states:

In reference to sleeper room setup "two bottles of spring water per person per trip (additional water may be purchased in the café/lounge car)"

Further down the memo it references the fact that Complimentary coffee/tea/ or orange juice are provided between 6 and 11 am.


----------



## montana mike

Another bureaucratic rule that makes no sense, since it doesn't take into account time and distance. Pity the poor soul who has to spend 48 hours from SEA to CHI......bummer. As I said, worse than the darned airlines now. Arrrrrgh. I would just love to be able to get in front of the top dogs at Amtrak to walk them thru how unbelievably stupid most of their "marketing" actions are.


----------



## Ispolkom

I want to know what the ill passenger did that contaminated *the whole train.* The mind boggles.


----------



## William W.

That's one of the stupidest rules I've ever seen. If they're really concerned about people taking too many water bottles, just put the SCA in control of them. If you want water, simply ask. If they are really going to enforce this, I'd think that people would begin looting water from empty rooms. I had to do that once when I was on the CL, because the SCA didn't leave any out, and was no where to be found (let's just say that he didn't get a tip).


----------



## Bob Dylan

OBS said:


> The Operations Standards update dated 6/18/14 states:
> 
> In reference to sleeper room setup "two bottles of spring water per person per trip (additional water may be purchased in the café/lounge car)"
> 
> Further down the memo it references the fact that Complimentary coffee/tea/ or orange juice are provided between 6 and 11 am.


Thanks for the Official Policy from Moe Curly and Larry @ 60 Mass!!!

Let them eat Cake indeed!


----------



## jis

Overly restrictive policies are no substitute for competent middle management and the ability of top management to actually manage the company and get middle management to do what they want them to do. Fortunately, this very incompetence in management will now work in favor of things not getting to be too bad perhaps.


----------



## andersone

any update on the contaminated train,,, anybody get the car numbers?


----------



## JoeBas

Ispolkom said:


> I want to know what the ill passenger did that contaminated *the whole train.* The mind boggles.


Sounds like Norovirus, may have brought it onto the train with him.


----------



## andersone

that can be UGLY !! Novo wiped my best buds last cruise and he won't go back. hope they didn't have to send it to Beech Grove


----------



## andersone

The EB Facebook page is reporting that 8(21) was NOT Norovirusbut rather "It was a group that got food poisoning BEFORE they got on the train. No special cleaning needed."

Can anyone confirm this?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Sounds like spin.


----------



## tim49424

Just finished my trip on 7/27 from CHI to PDX. We had unlimited bottles of water with ice available upon request. The only difference from other trips was our SCA said we couldn't take the bottles of water ourselves.

Also, oddly enough, there was musical entertainment in the lounge car yesterday afternoon.....a fiddle group. They weren't too bad. Actually, my mother and sister quite enjoyed it. The group performed three times and the OBS requested that after each performance the car be emptied out so others could have an equal opportunity to enjoy the music.


----------



## TraneMan

tim49424 said:


> The group performed three times and the OBS requested that after each performance the car be emptied out so others could have an equal opportunity to enjoy the music.


I kinda wished they do that in the summer.. I've seen people sit in there for hours.. (Like our recent trip.) We never got a chance to sit in the lounge car home from SEA. Glad we had a bedroom to give us more room for us and another couple to visit us.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## montana mike

Update from BNSF: Some may have noticed that #8 has been averaging well over 4 hours late into CHI over the past month or so (even with the extra three hours added to the schedule), with only a couple days where the train arrived less than two hours late. My BNSF contacts say this should continue for the summer, with perhaps a modest improvement in the Fall and then a further small improvement by November, after the 2014 construction season ends. I asked if Amtrak and BNSF would revert to the "old" schedule this Fall. BNSF has told Amtrak that they may be able to do this at some point this Fall, BUT, to still expect 2-3 hour delays into CHI even after the construction season is over. There is just still too much traffic on the Hi-Line to accommodate the old schedule for the EB's without some delays. They have also told Amtrak that even if the old schedule is implemented for a while during the winter months, Spring, Summer and Fall 2015 should see the same level of construction activity and that the "padded schedule" would likely be needed again.


----------



## neroden

Appreciate the news from your BNSF contacts. You don't happen to have any CP contacts, do you? The train has often been losing unreasonable amounts of time between St. Paul and Milwaukee in both directions. Since St. Paul - Chicago is what I'm likely to be taking, I am most concerned about CP's behavior. (I'm just going to schedule a night in Chicago eastbound, but what do I have to worry about westbound?)


----------



## unhappy

10 plus hours late on my trip on 8 yesterday. We sat for 3 plus hours dead still outside Fargo with no explanation until 2 hours had already gone by. This has made me rethink wanting to take Amtrak again for future trips. I expected 5 hours delay but not 11.


----------



## andersone

Mike your inside info is greatly appreciated. I have a pool going on the over under on my 7 (6) getting into GPK at plus 5. It's a Wednesday depart, gotta be late.My return on 8(13) i am only wagering will be at plus 1 at GPK but plus 8 by the time I get to LSE.


----------



## fairviewroad

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Sounds like spin.


Bear in mind there was never an official source for the "contamination" report in the first place, just a bunch of internet chatter.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Now now now. Everything you read on the Internet is true. Right?


----------



## fairviewroad

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Now now now. Everything you read on the Internet is true. Right?




I won't believe this story until there's a Wikipedia entry on "The Great Empire Builder Contamination Of 2014".


----------



## andersone

Well departure is a week from today,,, so I can scratch the virus spray and just stick to the bear spray


----------



## montana mike

I hope your trip goes well!


----------



## CHamilton

From the Facebook Empire Builder group:



> Any idea what happened to 8 today (7/29)? Amtrak shows a service disruption and that it only made it as far as MSP. Departed St. Cloud over 6 hours late. Just curious.
> I was the conductor on that train. There was a broken switch west of GFK that we had to sit behind waiting for MOW


----------



## andersone

The Flathead Beacon is reporting on the attempt to phase out some oil tankers,,,,

http://flatheadbeacon.com/2014/07/29/federal-regulators-propose-phase-dangerous-tank-cars/

"Following a year of high-profile rail derailments involving crude oil, the U.S. Department of Transportation announced last week a gamut of new regulations in hopes of preventing more explosive accidents.

The proposed rules, which include a two-year phase-out of the DOT 111 tank car, come as more crude oil is riding the rails through Northwest Montana, including along Glacier National Park’s southern boundary and near downtown Whitefish. Data from BNSF Railway released by the state of Montana earlier this summer shows that during the first full week of June, a dozen loaded oil trains rolled through the area; that number is likely to grow in the coming years as North Dakota’s Bakken oil fields continue to boom.

“Safety is our top priority, which is why I’ve worked aggressively to improve the safe transport of crude oil and other hazardous materials since my first week in office,” said Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx on July 23. “While we have made unprecedented progress though voluntary agreements and emergency orders, today’s proposal represents our most significant progress yet in developing and enforcing new rules to ensure that all flammable liquids, including Bakken crude and ethanol, are transported safely.”


----------



## montana mike

A good part of the way thru summer and I think it is interesting to look at the BNSF estimates of transit times for the Hi-Line from last winter and what we are currently seeing. BNSF told Amtrak, before the new "padding" was added, that Amtrak could expect 7-8 hour delays eastbound into Chi-town and 3-4 hour delays westbound into SEA/PDX. Well, if you look at the arrival delays at the termination points over the past 4-6 weeks, the BNSF folks were very close to their estimates. Even with the 3 extra hours of padding #8 is arriving 4-5 hours late consistently and #7, with their additional 90 minutes is arriving 2-3 hours late on the West coast. At least they got the estimated delays right--even if we all are frustrated by this situation. I guess Amtrak was not about to agree to add 8 hours to the eastbound trek, nor were they comfortable in adding 4 hours to the westbound trip either. The compromise was likely necessitated by a lot of factors, not the least of which may have been crew issues. While the "official" schedule remains as a hope to return to at some point, my observation of BNSF's construction scheduling and traffic increases would indicate the progress is going to be measured over several years, not a few months. I think people are now resigning themselves to multiple hour arrival delays both ways on the Empire Builder route, with de facto no connections for almost all other trains out of CHI for the foreseeable future. Makes a LD train ride from the west cost to the east or gulf coasts a lot longer with that overnight stay in CHI, but not much else anyone can do if the train is the only option.


----------



## yarrow

yarrow and i booked a trip this week spk-nol and return in september. on our segment spk-chi on 9/6 the revised schedule applies(we leave spk at 10:30pm) but on our return on 9/13 apparently the old schedule is back with arrival into spk at 1:40am


----------



## Bob Dylan

yarrow said:


> yarrow and i booked a trip this week spk-nol and return in september. on our segment spk-chi on 9/6 the revised schedule applies(we leave spk at 10:30pm) but on our return on 9/13 apparently the old schedule is back with arrival into spk at 1:40am


Look for an e-mail and/or robo call from Amtrak advising that the revised revision of the "temporary" EB Schedule now in effect will apply to your trip!


----------



## yarrow

jimhudson said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow and i booked a trip this week spk-nol and return in september. on our segment spk-chi on 9/6 the revised schedule applies(we leave spk at 10:30pm) but on our return on 9/13 apparently the old schedule is back with arrival into spk at 1:40am
> 
> 
> 
> Look for an e-mail and/or robo call from Amtrak advising that the revised revision of the "temporary" EB Schedule now in effect will apply to your trip!
Click to expand...

that is kind of what i figured but why do they keep doing it when they know the schedule won't be back to normal?


----------



## montana mike

Good question. My BNSF guys say Amtrak is just confusing the Pax and should just bite the bullet and keep the padded schedule in place until at least the 2014 construction season is over (Late Oct/early Nov), rather than extending things piecemeal. BNSF has advised them of both the duration and extent of the delays (which have been quite accurate so far), however, for some reason Amtrak is ignoring the information provided to them.


----------



## andersone

Compromise, Daniel Webster would be proud


----------



## PRae_Train

So, if I'm booked on EB eastbound on a Monday in late August and it arrives CHI too late for connection to LSL (thus requiring an overnight in Chicago), what are the chances that I'd get a roomette on the LSL that had been booked for someone else who missed connections the next day?


----------



## Ryan

Possible, but I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## andersone

slim and none, doesn't hurt to try,,, but my money is on none


----------



## PRae_Train

How would I try? I would think that if a room is available, they'd give it to me, but is there some way I can improve my chances?


----------



## William W.

As soon as you know that you're going to miss your train, call customer service and ask to be rebooked. When it comes to rebooking due to missed connections, the early bird gets the worm.


----------



## PRae_Train

Thank you. I'll keep that in my Plan B notes.


----------



## OBS

The other possibility for being reaccomodated in next day sleeper is, if connections are going to be missed the next day due to late trains, then those accomodations are opened up for sale...


----------



## tim49424

Had a great trip on the Empire Builder #7/27, July 23-25. Great crews, awesome OBS, fantastic SCA and "only" 2 1/2 hours late into PDX but we expected that.


----------



## Phil S

OBS said:


> The other possibility for being reaccomodated in next day sleeper is, if connections are going to be missed the next day due to late trains, then those accomodations are opened up for sale...


I think I've asked this before but not gotten a clear answer (I think, since at this point my memory......Ugh.) If you're booked in a roomette, miss the guaranteed connection, and the only sleeper space they have available on the next train is a bedroom, what do they do? I'd hope they'd be willing to negotiate some sort of a deal. Then again, I won;t be surprised if it depends entirely on your negotiating skills. Anyone `walked this tightrope?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

They'll put you in the bedroom.


----------



## D T Nelson

WellTrained said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other possibility for being reaccomodated in next day sleeper is, if connections are going to be missed the next day due to late trains, then those accomodations are opened up for sale...
> 
> 
> 
> I think I've asked this before but not gotten a clear answer (I think, since at this point my memory......Ugh.) If you're booked in a roomette, miss the guaranteed connection, and the only sleeper space they have available on the next train is a bedroom, what do they do? I'd hope they'd be willing to negotiate some sort of a deal. Then again, I won;t be surprised if it depends entirely on your negotiating skills. Anyone `walked this tightrope?
Click to expand...

In my one experience with missing my connection I had paid for a Superliner roomette and was rebooked into a Viewliner handicap bedroom, which was very nice. If you are asking if one might have to pay extra for the upgrade, no, I got the better room for no additional charge.

BUT, there were other people who missed the same connection who had paid for roomettes and wound up in coach on the same train as me. I'm not 100 percent sure how it was that I got a bed and they didn't, but I think it was because I had called customer service the moment they said we were not going to make the connection -- the woman I talked to seemed utterly confused by my request and eventually I said "never mind, I'll wait until I get to Chicago to handle it" but when I got to Chicago I was the one person assigned to a bedroom, so maybe she figured it out after I hung up. Or maybe it was just luck. Anyway, the people who wound up in coach were told they would get the sleeping accommodation charge refunded to them.

People who complained about the downgrade were told "Amtrak guarantees transportation, we do not guarantee a level of accommodation."


----------



## tim49424

D T Nelson said:


> WellTrained said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other possibility for being reaccomodated in next day sleeper is, if connections are going to be missed the next day due to late trains, then those accomodations are opened up for sale...
> 
> 
> 
> I think I've asked this before but not gotten a clear answer (I think, since at this point my memory......Ugh.) If you're booked in a roomette, miss the guaranteed connection, and the only sleeper space they have available on the next train is a bedroom, what do they do? I'd hope they'd be willing to negotiate some sort of a deal. Then again, I won;t be surprised if it depends entirely on your negotiating skills. Anyone `walked this tightrope?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In my one experience with missing my connection I had paid for a Superliner roomette and was rebooked into a Viewliner handicap bedroom, which was very nice. If you are asking if one might have to pay extra for the upgrade, no, I got the better room for no additional charge.
Click to expand...

Actually, Room H is less expensive than a roomette.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Not when booked without a handicap. Then it's a bedroom, highest bucket.


----------



## tim49424

Green Maned Lion said:


> Not when booked without a handicap.


Didn't know you could even do that.


----------



## William W.

The H room becomes available to all passengers 14 days before departure, but only if the regular bedrooms are sold out.


----------



## tim49424

And now that I learned something new.......back to the mess. Does anyone know what happened to 7(1)? There was a service disruption and the last report was from FAR.


----------



## andersone

as an H room regular it is less expensive than a roomette,, but I have paid my dues to use it,,, and this trip it is She Who Must Be Obeyed who joins me with a malady,, her heel surgery went well, but she is still in one of those real sexy walking casts.


----------



## andersone

Have I got the turn numbers right?

8(5) will get turned into 7(7)

working on my Amtrak math here


----------



## jis

andersone said:


> Have I got the turn numbers right?
> 
> 8(5) will get turned into 7(7)
> 
> working on my Amtrak math here


Warp drive? 

8(5) should arrive CHI on the 7th with a little bit of luck. So turn on the 8th to become 7(8).


----------



## andersone

i knew i was a day off,,, so 8(4) will become 7 (7)

i am trainable


----------



## jis

Yep.


----------



## will

tim49424 said:


> And now that I learned something new.......back to the mess. Does anyone know what happened to 7(1)? There was a service disruption and the last report was from FAR.


I boarded in Fargo, so the Saint Paul fiasco was already history. The story I heard was that a freight train engine died and blocked the track 10 miles south of Saint Paul for four hours--during which time the passengers expecting to board at SPUD were on the platform. That was the service disruption; I'm not sure why Dixieland picked up the times to Fargo and then stopped recording them.

Upon leaving Fargo, the train backed through Moorhead to go west on the old Northern Pacific tracks. It stopped on the bridge over the Red River and sat for over a half-hour. There was an announcement that a freight train ahead of us needed to have an engine removed "for reasons unknown."

We passed (or were passed) by several freight trains going the other direction on the Surrey cut-off. I thought the reason BNSF gave for asking Amtrak to send the westbound Empire Builder on the Surrey cut-off was to facilitate one-way traffic on it and the normal (now eastbound only) route. Can anyone comment?


----------



## andersone

Loaded the Tahoe, headed to Ferryville to see the twin sister of my former mother inlaw

then on to LSE manana to catch the EB.....

to quote Ray Davies

"I am so tired, tired of waiting"

onward and upward


----------



## Ispolkom

will said:


> I thought the reason BNSF gave for asking Amtrak to send the westbound Empire Builder on the Surrey cut-off was to facilitate one-way traffic on it and the normal (now eastbound only) route. Can anyone comment?


Construction on the route via Grand Forks, the Hillsboro and Devils Lake subs.


----------



## andersone

Arrived in Ferryville. No 7 will pass 300 feet from the motel. Already 2 NBA oil trains have passed in 30 minutes


----------



## montana mike

Looks like something happened in eastern MT to cause BOTH #7 and #8 to lose up to 4 hours today. Bummer.


----------



## andersone

Only thirty min

utes late to LSE but the 8:30 dining call is, 45 minutes late


----------



## andersone

Dinner was awesome . Steak here Tilapia for She Who Must Be Obeyed. Cheesecake around but my lymph nodes or lack thereof are reminding me not a smart move. Devils Lake next 1:40 behind. Have had Verizon service all the way.


----------



## andersone

Curtis is a good SCA.corelle on the table. Linen for supper paper for breakfast. Just lost, 45 minutes outside Minot.


----------



## andersone

Only made it go

the fairgrounds- stopped for freights, ,,AGAIN


----------



## andersone

We just went dead. Relief crew in 20


----------



## andersone

An hour and a half after they called it ee finally cleared Minot


----------



## JayPea

Waiting to board #8 in Seattle. Should have departed 45 minutes ago and the train is still not at the station yet. Typical.


----------



## JayPea

Aboard #8 now. I don't mind it being late like this. That means we have a decent shot at getting breakfast before arriving at Glacier Park. Hope it's even later by morning!


----------



## andersone

Just left Willsten six hours late . An extra Amtrak steak will have to sooth my suffering


----------



## andersone

Just passed eastbound 8


----------



## andersone

They appear to be only 25 minutes late


----------



## JayPea

A first: We had to wait about 10 minutes just west of the Cascade Tunnel to wait for them to pump fresh air into it. I know they have to do this after each train passes through but this is the first time I've had to wait. Now about 1:45 late into Wenatchee. Breakfast is looking better for tomorrow all the time!


----------



## IHC

Keep us updated on your trips. What was the reason for the late departure from Seattle?


----------



## William W.

JayPea said:


> A first: We had to wait about 10 minutes just west of the Cascade Tunnel to wait for them to pump fresh air into it. I know they have to do this after each train passes through but this is the first time I've had to wait. Now about 1:45 late into Wenatchee. Breakfast is looking better for tomorrow all the time!


Why bother? Diesel fumes are known to the State of California to be part of a well-balanced diet. :giggle:


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Diesel is very healthful.


----------



## JayPea

IHC said:


> Keep us updated on your trips. What was the reason for the late departure from Seattle?


Apparently it was due to mechanical trouble.


----------



## montana mike

Both #7 in WA and #8 in MN are over 5 hours behind this AM, as would be expected-sadly.......Gosh, I wish BNSF's estimates had been wrong.


----------



## andersone

We arrived at 1:30 am about 6 hours late. Verizon was spotty after Willisten. Curtis was a great SCA and really helped getting us off #7. Glacier Lodge staff were waiting and I barely touched the luggage. The view this morning made it all worth while.


----------



## montana mike

Glad you made it! Curtis has taken great care of me as well in the past. Enjoy GNP!!!!!!


----------



## Big Iron

I'm confused, tried to search this but could not find the information. I'm trying to plan a round trip for my brother and his wife from RVR to East Glacier Park. The website says there is no same day service? When I try one way routings there is no eastbound connection for the EB to the CL which leaves CHI at 6:40 but there is a connection with the Cardinal that leaves at 5:45, hence my confusion.

Their trip won't be until this time next year. Will the BNSF track improvements be done by then?

They were visiting the Blackfeet Indian reservation where my sister-in-laws father was born and raised. Their cabin faced the BNSF main and were amazed at the volume of train traffic. They noticed the EB and thought it would be nice to take the train next time. Hopefully the mess will be cleared up and two new foamers in making will be born.


----------



## Ispolkom

Big Iron said:


> Their trip won't be until this time next year. Will the BNSF track improvements be done by then?


No.


----------



## montana mike

Big Iron said:


> I'm confused, tried to search this but could not find the information. I'm trying to plan a round trip for my brother and his wife from RVR to East Glacier Park. The website says there is no same day service? When I try one way routings there is no eastbound connection for the EB to the CL which leaves CHI at 6:40 but there is a connection with the Cardinal that leaves at 5:45, hence my confusion.
> 
> Their trip won't be until this time next year. Will the BNSF track improvements be done by then?
> 
> They were visiting the Blackfeet Indian reservation where my sister-in-laws father was born and raised. Their cabin faced the BNSF main and were amazed at the volume of train traffic. They noticed the EB and thought it would be nice to take the train next time. Hopefully the mess will be cleared up and two new foamers in making will be born.


The only connection Amtrak will even try is the EB with the LSL, and even that is a 50-50 proposition. If you can afford the time and cost the only way to ensure a "connection" is to stay in Chicago overnight.


----------



## Big Iron

montana mike said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused, tried to search this but could not find the information. I'm trying to plan a round trip for my brother and his wife from RVR to East Glacier Park. The website says there is no same day service? When I try one way routings there is no eastbound connection for the EB to the CL which leaves CHI at 6:40 but there is a connection with the Cardinal that leaves at 5:45, hence my confusion.
> 
> Their trip won't be until this time next year. Will the BNSF track improvements be done by then?
> 
> They were visiting the Blackfeet Indian reservation where my sister-in-laws father was born and raised. Their cabin faced the BNSF main and were amazed at the volume of train traffic. They noticed the EB and thought it would be nice to take the train next time. Hopefully the mess will be cleared up and two new foamers in making will be born.
> 
> 
> 
> The only connection Amtrak will even try is the EB with the LSL, and even that is a 50-50 proposition. If you can afford the time and cost the only way to ensure a "connection" is to stay in Chicago overnight.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I can think of a lot worse things to do than stay in Chicago over night. Hopefully things improve by this time next year.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused, tried to search this but could not find the information. I'm trying to plan a round trip for my brother and his wife from RVR to East Glacier Park. The website says there is no same day service? When I try one way routings there is no eastbound connection for the EB to the CL which leaves CHI at 6:40 but there is a connection with the Cardinal that leaves at 5:45, hence my confusion.
> 
> Their trip won't be until this time next year. Will the BNSF track improvements be done by then?
> 
> They were visiting the Blackfeet Indian reservation where my sister-in-laws father was born and raised. Their cabin faced the BNSF main and were amazed at the volume of train traffic. They noticed the EB and thought it would be nice to take the train next time. Hopefully the mess will be cleared up and two new foamers in making will be born.
> 
> 
> 
> The only connection Amtrak will even try is the EB with the LSL, and even that is a 50-50 proposition. If you can afford the time and cost the only way to ensure a "connection" is to stay in Chicago overnight.
Click to expand...


they will also book the eb to connect with the city of new orelans. at least they did for us a couple weeks ago for a trip in mid september. why they do it i don't know. we are planning for a night in chi though it will be on amtrak's dime


----------



## andersone

I will have phone service again tomorrow . Might someone be kind enough to find the direct phone for GPK? Trying to verify if they will take checked luggage


----------



## montana mike

The local yellow pages lists the following number: 406-226-4452. Not sure who is at the station though, most times when we have been there it is not manned. I think someone shows up just when the EB's are arriving.


----------



## EB_OBS

andersone said:


> I will have phone service again tomorrow . Might someone be kind enough to find the direct phone for GPK? Trying to verify if they will take checked luggage



Yes, GPK is a manned station and has checked baggage service both in & out.


----------



## montana mike

Amtrak's web site shows the station is open 5 AM to 7 AM and then 7:45 PM to 10 PM. Those times would give you the best shot at finding someone there. We were just in East Glacier yesterday on our way to the Two Medicine area of the Park in the middle of the day and no one at the station, but that was around 11:30 AM.


----------



## William W.

I'd imagine that you should be fine. If the train is going to be late, they have to have personnel there to handle the offloading of bags. You shouldn't have any problem checking a bag for a late EB.


----------



## andersone

Thanks. In 830 we would have had no problem as the head end is by the station. Because we are in 2830 we have to hike all the way to the end of the train. But that is the only blemish. Wonderful weather great time


----------



## JayPea

Glad you are having a great time, Andersone. We are on our way back to Glacier after 3 great days at Yellowstone. Not sure we will have time to do GTTS Road once we get there; for once #7 is "only" little over an hour late out of Williston.


----------



## andersone

8 just came through West Glacier about an hour late. Watched it from the, veranda of the Belton a great old RR hotel.


----------



## andersone

I white knuckled GTTSR westbound yesterday. Ticked some off cause I was so slow but such is life. Hope to have dinner at Walton tonight.


----------



## JayPea

#7 got into Spokane about 5:45, 2 1/2 hours late. Could have been worse. For some reason it lost 40 minutes from the time I got on at East Glacier to the time it reached West Glacier. And after pulling out of West Glacier had to stop for a freight. Did make up almost an hour due to padding between Sandpoint and Spokane.


----------



## JayPea

andersone said:


> I white knuckled GTTSR westbound yesterday. Ticked some off cause I was so slow but such is life. Hope to have dinner at Walton tonight.


I don't know why people get so blessed impatient on GTTSR. It's not as if it's an interstate freeway; besides, the scenery is something to be savored rather than sped by. Enjoy dinner at Izaak Walton!


----------



## montana mike

We just had dinner at the Izaak Walton three days ago, on the veranda, watching the BNSF freights go by--a most enjoyable experience!! Glad you enjoyed the GTTSR experience. It can indeed be a little "challenging" for those who are not used to high mountain driving (nothing like a little 1000 foot drop to get the excitement going), and I agree, the most important part (aside from safely driving the road) is the scenery. It always boggles my mind to see people, who have come from thousands of miles away, try to race up or down this road. It is indeed to be savored!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'm envious sitting down here in 100 degree Dog Days of August Heat in Texas reading about Glacier. Yellowstone and Grand Teton Parks!

Based on what I've read and heard the GTTSR should be changed to Going To The Snow Road!!" until July!!( I've only passed through on the Builder, Ive never been in Glacier!)


----------



## andersone

Landed back in GNP and am i impressed with Dancing Bears Inn. No more Lodge for me - sad thing is I will probably be back this way again. Went to the station and checked the bags for the morning. Agent also told me that Eastbound car 2830 will be right at the station, not the end of the platform as I had surmised so She Who Must Be Obeyed will NOT have to hoof it - and he offered IF she did he would take her in the baggage cart. Hope he wlll be there in the morning so I can get his name to give him the kudos he deserves. The only piece missing is how late it will be,,,, he guessed two hours, which was today's timing,,, and of course how late it will be t LSE,,,,


----------



## andersone

Also stopped for Dinner at the Izaak Walton,,, one of the best meals of the trip (pork chop for me, stroganoff for SWMBO) and am east bound tanker train for entertainment. i am truly blessed/


----------



## JayPea

Hope your #8 does better in the timekeeping department tomorrow morning than it did today. It's looking better; #8 should be into Spokane early and #28, while just over an hour late out of Pasco, should make up some of that time. Hopefully all will be on time out of Spokane tonight. My uncle and his granddaughters are catching #8 tomorrow morning from East Glacier. They are hoping against hope that it isn't too late into Chicago as they are catching the CONO to Champaign. All the best of luck to #8!!!!


----------



## PRae_Train

Drat! I've been watching the #8 arrivals to CHI on Wednesdays, and the last 4 have not been so late as to miss many connections. Today, however, it does not look good.

In two weeks I'll be on that one and would prefer to make my connection to LSL. Will just have to see how it goes. Adventures, adventures!


----------



## andersone

Getting ready to leave the Dancing Bears Inn. 8 is only 23 minutes late at the moment (knock on fomica) . JP tell your uncle who should be boarding with me I am wearing pale green and the charming bride is in black but the real giveaway is her cane


----------



## andersone

So much for knocking on Formica. 8 is now an hour late


----------



## montana mike

Harvest Update: My conversations with local BNSF folks indicate that the harvest along the Hi-Line will be near or at record levels this year. This means BNSF is going to be hard pressed to move agricultural items ALL Fall and Winter. They said to be prepared for continued lengthy delays, as they have not totally recovered from the past year's big harvest. They also said with huge Soy Bean and Corn harvests this year as well elsewhere where BNSF serves, this will prevent them from allocating as many cars as they would normally need to meet the expected huge demand. They are taking delivery and leasing several thousand additional grain cars over the coming year, but most will not be in their inventory until some time in mid 2015.

So the traffic will continue to increase, along with a continued aggressive 2015 construction schedule. No rest for the weary. Meanwhile #8 in MN is 6 hours late again today. Not going to make any connections in CHI at that rate. Bummer.


----------



## neroden

Thanks. I have to set up a trip to Minneapolis in April; I'm planning to schedule an overnight stay in Chicago on the eastbound. (I figure the westbound will probably leave on time, but I'm not anticipating arriving on time.)


----------



## VentureForth

How much of the EB route is double tracked?


----------



## andersone

Made it to Havre. Still an hour behind


----------



## andersone

Willisten now. 3 hrs late


----------



## PRae_Train

Appears they held LSL 48 in CHI last night (DEP 10:48 pm) for the late EB 8 (ARR 10:28 pm).

Crossing my fingers... :unsure:


----------



## NW cannonball

montana mike said:


> Harvest Update: My conversations with local BNSF folks indicate that the harvest along the Hi-Line will be near or at record levels this year. This means BNSF is going to be hard pressed to move agricultural items ALL Fall and Winter. They said to be prepared for continued lengthy delays, as they have not totally recovered from the past year's big harvest. They also said with huge Soy Bean and Corn harvests this year as well elsewhere where BNSF serves, this will prevent them from allocating as many cars as they would normally need to meet the expected huge demand. They are taking delivery and leasing several thousand additional grain cars over the coming year, but most will not be in their inventory until some time in mid 2015.
> 
> So the traffic will continue to increase, along with a continued aggressive 2015 construction schedule. No rest for the weary. Meanwhile #8 in MN is 6 hours late again today. Not going to make any connections in CHI at that rate. Bummer.


I've seen complaints in the local MSP press that Xcel energy are whining that their SHERCO plants near Saint Cloud have really low coal reserves.

I've seen - today - POT (that's Potash of Saskatchewan cars moving east through local junction - for the first time in a while - distinctive pink closed hoppers) AND - shipping fertilizer so late in the season is -- hard to explain.

I've heard (TOTAL rumour mill nonsense) that lots of LAST years grain (hard amber durum and such) hasn't been shipped yet.

I guess - and that's all it is - a guess - based on local and NODAK shippers.

Cynically --

BNSF can build and delay - it will be 2018 before they catch up.

And the EB will be adversely affected for at least 3 more years. And the oil trains will add more to that.

Optimists only get negative surpises 

Pessimists at least get to be pleasantly surprised sometimes.


----------



## Ispolkom

NW cannonball said:


> I've heard (TOTAL rumour mill nonsense) that lots of LAST years grain (hard amber durum and such) hasn't been shipped yet.


I think that you heard correctly. Here's a quote from a BNSF flak: "we remain focused on moving last year’s crop in time for this year’s harvest." That was in Monday's Strib. My next planned trip on the Hil Line is October, and I'm expecting epic delays.


----------



## montana mike

I think the operative word is indeed "epic". BNSF may have been able to cope somewhat without the massive energy trains that now move on this overstretched route, but the combination of huge harvests, a moderately improving economy and having to use the rails to move most of the Bakken oil is just too much for the Hi-Line. My BNSF guys keep telling me it will get better-in 2016-but I am now thinking this might be more wishful thinking than anything else.

PS-Our local weekly newspaper, The Flathead Beacon, just ran a story this week calling the EB's "broken", also saying that ridership is down and the new schedule is wreaking havoc on the tourist biz--duh!!!


----------



## NW cannonball

veh. Oh bloody crap. So Xcel is screaming for help to get their coal-fired-plants to have some coal, and the farmers in ND would really like to ship their product, and they can't even get Saskatchewan fertilizer,

Oh my, oh my. And this for a few years -- seems unfortunate -- or planned .

The lateness of the EB seems relativeley minor.

And BNSF gets what? -- total monopoly on all grain - coal - oil - any and all shipments from the Far East, passenger - fertilizer - -- the mind boggles.


----------



## andersone

Coming into St. Cloud 3 hours late. At least 8 is being consistent this morning.


----------



## yarrow

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/08/13/supreme-court-could-make-amtrak-trains-run-on-time/


----------



## montana mike

VentureForth said:


> How much of the EB route is double tracked?


I don't know the exact number--I will ask my BNSF contacts. BUT, from taking this entire route many times, the vast majority is single track. It is significant to note that there are choke points like the major tunnels and Glacier National park, where double tracking is not likely or possible.

I do believe more of the route from MSP to CHI is double tracked, but again, it doesn't appear to be helping Amtrak that much, as delays do often occur on this portion of the route as well, though certainly not as often or long as the Hi-Line portion of the route.


----------



## William W.

Could we be looking at a potential suspension of service? With all of the bad news, the awful OTP, and the dropping ridership, could there come a point where it would be better just to suspend the route until conditions improve?

(Obviously with the understanding that Amtrak, not BNSF, is responsible for deciding when service resumes. We don't want a SSL situation).


----------



## Ryan

That's worked out so well for the Sunset East.

I don't see that as a viable option.


----------



## William W.

You read my mind haha.


----------



## andersone

Three and almost half hours late to MSP. Nice breakfast with a couple from Cincinnati. Will be late enough into LSE to get another AMTRAK lunch


----------



## PRae_Train

Thank you for your updates, andersone.

For lunch and dinner today would you describe any limitations or creative options on the menus?


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> I do believe more of the route from MSP to CHI is double tracked, but again, it doesn't appear to be helping Amtrak that much, as delays do often occur on this portion of the route as well, though certainly not as often or long as the Hi-Line portion of the route.


You're right, I think, about BNSF being mostly double tracked. Alas, the Empire Builder runs on the former Milwaukee Road tracks, and much of that line's second track was pulled up in the 1980s. CP gets the blame for delays between MSP and CHI.


----------



## zephyr17

Yes, the CP x-MILW between St. Paul and Chicago is largely single-track between Milwaukee and a bit south of St. Paul.


----------



## Guest

I am unable to post either the pic or the link to the pic because of this captiva

Here is Curtis, the awesome SCA i had on 7(7)

http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/andersones/media/Glacier%202014/2014GlacierAmtrak11_zpsc8387275.jpg.html


----------



## William W.

I just spoke with an AGR agent, and they said that the EB connection at PDX with the CS is a guaranteed connection. There is a 4-hour layover between the arrival of the EB, and the departure of the CS. Is that still too little time to connect, based on the EB's OTP? Based on my potential schedule, I couldn't afford to miss that connection.


----------



## benale

We are connecting from the EB to the CS next year and are overnighting in Portland and taking the next days CS. The AGR agent let us do that. With the abysmal timekeeing of 27, I wouldn't chance it.. Ask if you can do this. It took a while to get the connection approved,but it certainly is peace of mind. Nothing is worse on a train ride then to worry if you'll make your connection.


----------



## William W.

I may have to do that. I'm surprised that CHI-LAX via PDX is a valid itinerary. It is certainly the best bang for your buck if making a two-zone redemption.

I went ahead an made the reservation. The AGR agent said that I couldn't do the overnight in PDX. I'm going to call back tomorrow and see if I can get someone else who is willing to help me. This trip is meant to be more of a train vacation than a vacation in the cities that I'd be visiting. I have to be able to book airfare from LAX back to DC, and can't do that if I'm uncertain as to whether I'll make the PDX connection.


----------



## William W.

I dunno, I may have to look at a different routing. Maybe 421? I know it's not that scenic, but I've always wanted to take a 65 hour train trip.

Regardless, I'm flying home in JetBlue's Mint class


----------



## montana mike

With "average" delays of just under 4 hours over the past month it is indeed an iffy proposition. But looking at the actuals, there are some days that #27 does indeed arrive in time to catch the CS. #27 was even on time one day recently!! Hope springs eternal.


----------



## William W.

Any insights as to whether the delays get worse over the winter?

I think what I may do is keep the reservation as is, but book an extra night on the LAX end. That way, I can have an extra day in LA. If I do miss my connection, I get a free night in PDX. I just have to be sure to book a refundable hotel in LA. My big concern is making my flight back to DC, but if I add an extra night in LA, I should be fine.

I don't really want to take 421. The EB is at the top of my LD train list, and I'd like to be able to see a PPC on the CS before they're retired. This routing definitely seems like the best bang for my buck. I've redeemed a two-zone bedroom, a ticket that would have cost me $2200.


----------



## benale

I've read the overnight in Portland on your own dime can be done, but that was a month ago. Don't know if that has changed. Like you,we wanted to get the best bang for the buck using AGR points. Tell the agent you read the overnight in PDX is allowable. Chances are you ll be put on hold. We are heading back on 422..it's a nice route, certainly not as nice as the EB,but you get an extra day on the train,pass through the Arizona desert and see some great scenery in West Texas

If you are a train lover, you want to use those points wisely. Let us know how it turns out.


----------



## montana mike

William W. said:


> Any insights as to whether the delays get worse over the winter?
> 
> I think what I may do is keep the reservation as is, but book an extra night on the LAX end. That way, I can have an extra day in LA. If I do miss my connection, I get a free night in PDX. I just have to be sure to book a refundable hotel in LA. My big concern is making my flight back to DC, but if I add an extra night in LA, I should be fine.
> 
> I don't really want to take 421. The EB is at the top of my LD train list, and I'd like to be able to see a PPC on the CS before they're retired. This routing definitely seems like the best bang for my buck. I've redeemed a two-zone bedroom, a ticket that would have cost me $2200.


Well, the construction season will have wrapped up for the year, so that is a plus, BUT winter has its own challenges. A beautiful ride thru the Rockies in the winter though!! My personal guess is that things should be at least a little better during the winter months.


----------



## andersone

i didn't realize i wasn't signed in,,, here is Julie Queen of the dining car with She Who Must Be Obeyed

http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/andersones/media/Glacier%202014/2014GlacierPhojnePics211_zps8d35e900.jpg.html

she was with us on both 7 and 8


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

"She Who Must Be Obeyed" needs to smile.

Great background shot with grump. Someday I going to find the time and stop in that area.


----------



## andersone

Wanted to update the Verizon status for my recent EB Venture

From LSE to Williston (WTN) had fairly good Verizon 3G

from there to GPK only got coverage around station stops,,,,,


----------



## MSP_Train_Hopper

Imagine my surprise this morning when I saw the #8 pull through Minneapolis at 8:00am! I used to see the #8 cross over I-35W fairly regularly on my morning commute, but it has been a couple years. Not sure what went well for them to keep this timekeeping, but WOW!


----------



## Henry Kisor

I'm ticketed on No. 8 for Thurs Sept. 11 SEA to Portage, WI.

The Amtrak web site is still showing departure from SEA at 4:40 p.m. (as it is on my boarding pass).

What are the chances that the departure time will be moved up to 1:40 p.m., as it has been all summer?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Henry Kisor said:


> I'm ticketed on No. 8 for Thurs Sept. 11 SEA to Portage, WI.
> 
> The Amtrak web site is still showing departure from SEA at 4:40 p.m. (as it is on my boarding pass).
> 
> What are the chances that the departure time will be moved up to 1:40 p.m., as it has been all summer?


Excellent to a dead lock cinch!


----------



## zephyr17

Henry Kisor said:


> I'm ticketed on No. 8 for Thurs Sept. 11 SEA to Portage, WI.
> 
> The Amtrak web site is still showing departure from SEA at 4:40 p.m. (as it is on my boarding pass).
> 
> What are the chances that the departure time will be moved up to 1:40 p.m., as it has been all summer?


Chances are very high, verging on certainty, Henry. It just isn't official yet.

Love your book, own it in hard cover, BTW.


----------



## rusty spike

I think you should expect an e-mail very soon with a new eticket attached showing the departure time to be 1:40 PM. At least I would make tentative plans to be at the station for the earlier departure.


----------



## montana mike

The planets must have been aligned today. #8 arrived in CHI only 60 minutes late--wow!!! #8 for tomorrow in CHI though is making up for today's better performance- already 3 1/2 hours late and they have not yet reached the area with the most congestion.


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## William W.

I'm looking forward to my EB trip in January. I'm kind of hoping that I miss my connection with the CS, so that I don't have to pay for a night in LA.

At the same time, I really don't want to chance being forced into coach. Then again, the CS usually runs with three sleepers plus a trans-dorm, so the chances should be lower than on a lesser equipped train (I'm assuming).

Is early January still considered to be part of the Holiday rush, or is it edging into the off-season?

If there's any chance at all that I'd be forced into coach, I may want to reconsider my trip routing (I'm going to LAX regardless).


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## SteveSFL

My dad and I are booked on the EB from PDX to CHI on Sept 27, which is also currently scheduled to leave at the later time. I'm expecting the notice from Amtrak, although I'd prefer to keep the later departure since it will give better daylight for the scenery in Glacier Park.

For those of you that have been on the much delayed EB lately, how was the food situation towards the end of the trip? It seems to me that since Amtrak is prominently advertising the probability of significant delays, they should have no excuse for not stocking enough food for extra meals (and I don't mean AmStew).

Also, since we are being picked up by relatives that live closer to Milwaukee than Chicago, we will probably plan to get off in Milwaukee. Is that just a matter of letting the conductor and SCA know with plenty of advance warning?

Thanks,

Steve


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## montana mike

Unless #8 is really late (i.e. more than 6 hours for example) you likely will not get any additional meal before your arrival into CHI.

Yes, I would certainly keep your SCA informed if you are getting off in MKE vs CHI.


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## montana mike

So much for decent timekeeping (likely a function of modestly lower weekend efforts by BNSF). #8 in WI is now 4 1/2 hours behind (having lost much of that time after leaving MSP-bummer), and #8 in MT is now 3 1/2 hours late and they haven't even run thru the slow section in eastern MT and ND yet. Oh, well. Back to the "new normal".

:-((


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## neroden

montana mike said:


> #8 in WI is now 4 1/2 hours behind (having lost much of that time after leaving MSP-bummer)


Hunter Harrison's CP strikes again.


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## tim49424

montana mike said:


> So much for decent timekeeping (likely a function of modestly lower weekend efforts by BNSF). #8 in WI is now 4 1/2 hours behind (having lost much of that time after leaving MSP-bummer), and #8 in MT is now 3 1/2 hours late and they haven't even run thru the slow section in eastern MT and ND yet. Oh, well. Back to the "new normal".
> 
> :-((


I am hearing from a not so reliable source that #8 hit a vehicle somewhere between Wolf Point and Williston. Can anyone verify that?


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## montana mike

Well, #8 went from almost on time to well over three hours late right there, so it is entirely possible.

:-(((


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## EB_OBS

tim49424 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> So much for decent timekeeping (likely a function of modestly lower weekend efforts by BNSF). #8 in WI is now 4 1/2 hours behind (having lost much of that time after leaving MSP-bummer), and #8 in MT is now 3 1/2 hours late and they haven't even run thru the slow section in eastern MT and ND yet. Oh, well. Back to the "new normal".
> 
> :-((
> 
> 
> 
> I am hearing from a not so reliable source that #8 hit a vehicle somewhere between Wolf Point and Williston. Can anyone verify that?
Click to expand...

Yes!


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## Stevestx

Just got updated e-ticket from Amtrak for my PDX-CHI trip on 9/27 with the revised departure time of 1:40PM. It's funny that there was no explanation of why a new ticket was being issued. If I wasn't already expecting the time change, I would have been confused.

Looking at the Amtrak website, it appears that they have implemented the early schedule through Sept 30 departure.


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## ScottRu

Every time I check in on this EB thread I can't believe how lucky we were to get from Chicago (having started in Boston) to Portland, OR only 45 minutes late last November. I feel badly for those who have had the awful delays. We had a really wonderful trip on the EB.


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## afigg

Well, somehow #8 (8/24) managed to have a good trip and arrived at CHI on August 26 only 23 minutes late at 4:18 PM CT. But don't worry about this becoming a trend, as the next #8 (8/25) is 4 hours and 55 minutes late at Stanley, ND. h34r:


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## WICT106

This just serves as evidence for how frustrating it can be advocating for better train service. I went to the aforementioned website and typed in St. Cloud MN, and Columbus WI. Not once was the train on time for either stop the entire month of August. Not once. The number of passenger who have said, "Never Again" must be getting long.

This lack of punctuality also demonstrates what we're up against in the general public -- folks aren't gonna want to invest in a system they view as a joke.


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## montana mike

#8 now 5 1/2 hours late this AM, so much for a "trend". The only certainty is no certainty!


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## Henry Kisor

Am boarding No. 7 today, bound for SEA. Ora pro nobis. (Just kidding. I don't care if we're a few hours late.)


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## montana mike

If you are really late you can enjoy breakfast as you ride thru Glacier National park, as we did on our last trip. That was about the only "plus" for our westbound trip. Keep us posted if anything significant pops up during your trip!


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## Just-Thinking-51

Stevestx said:


> Just got updated e-ticket from Amtrak for my PDX-CHI trip on 9/27 with the revised departure time of 1:40PM. It's funny that there was no explanation of why a new ticket was being issued. If I wasn't already expecting the time change, I would have been confused.
> 
> Looking at the Amtrak website, it appears that they have implemented the early schedule through Sept 30 departure.


Yes it can get confusing even for experience travelers. Got to watch for those E-mail changes. Sometimes they are moving you to a different compartment or just change the times. Very poor on the communication on why, you have to read and check everything yourself. No big look here at the change message.


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## yarrow

Stevestx said:


> Just got updated e-ticket from Amtrak for my PDX-CHI trip on 9/27 with the revised departure time of 1:40PM. It's funny that there was no explanation of why a new ticket was being issued. If I wasn't already expecting the time change, I would have been confused.
> 
> Looking at the Amtrak website, it appears that they have implemented the early schedule through Sept 30 departure.


and it doesn't seem like it would take much to attach a form letter of explanation to everyone's revised e-ticket


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## Just-Thinking-51

I agreed, but Arrow is 1972 state of art.

Hopeful the new system that is coming will have the feature.


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## ScottRu

It's true... one great advantage being quite late East-to-West is that you get to see Glacier.


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## CHamilton

For anyone who hasn't visited Glacier National Park, don't let the EB Mess deter you. Visit the glaciers while you still can.


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## montana mike

The operative word on the "glaciers" in the Park (really just about two dozen large compacted snow fields left over from the last ice age now) is the comment that they have been a feature of this Park for only about 7000 years. The glaciers that formed the spectacular valleys and jagged peaks have been gone for millions of years. It is still indeed worth the trip to see what happened long, long ago. The trip to Logan Pass is always an exciting and visually stunning one!!!

BTW I know Mr Mulfield mentioned in the article, nice fellow.

PS--If it is large glaciers you want to see a "slight" detour to our neighbor to the North (Canada) and the ice fields in Banff and Jasper National Parks are massive, stretching for many, many square miles and hundreds of feet thick of spectacular "blue ice".


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## NW cannonball

Totally concur get to Glacier (and Banff) while you can. Wonders of the earth (Yellowstone also).


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## andersone

I will reiterate what my sainted mother said about glacier (she first visited in the 20's)

The last thing God did on Earth was make Glacier. When she was done (god was always a female to my mother, that's another story) she called the Devil over and said "Beat This". The Devil shook his head and walked away.

Banff and Lake Louise are a close second.

We were there two weeks ago,,, sadly I will probably never go back, but now She Who Must Be Obeyed has finally seen it.


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## CHamilton

My friend Erik just sent me an email with the subject line "Happy eastbound EB day!" The message body simply says:



> 8/28


I have the best foamer friends!


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## montana mike

#8, still in MN and not yet into MSP is now over 8 hours late. I guess this is "payback" from BNSF for somehow allowing ONE EB to sneak thru less than 30 minutes late on Monday--Rats!!!


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## jebr

What happened between Fargo and Detroit Lakes? There were three hours lost there alone!


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## PRae_Train

[SIZE=10pt]From my daily log for Wed. 27-Aug on EB 8/25: • Overnight we lost more time, and at Fargo ND about 7am, we were over 5 hours late. They seem to be optimistic about ETA for stops ahead, so I take it with a grain of salt when they announce we should be in MSP at about noon, and CHI at 8pm. • They will not know about Chicago connections until after we get to Milwaukee, but will be serving dinner tonight (free for coach passengers). • Lunch as we approached MSP. • They fed the coach passengers dinner starting at about 4pm, stew on rice (sorry to vegetarians, we can give you a dinner roll), and then called in the sleeping car passengers to enjoy some regular entrees that were still available, without advertising this luxury to the coach pax. • Pulled into CHI about 9:15 and boarded 48/448 right on the next track, without going into the station; departed on time at 9:30. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I imagine this scenario would vary a lot depending on the available victuals and ETA. [/SIZE]


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## CHamilton

7(29) just left CHI about an hour late, at around 3:15. They held it for passengers from the CL, which arrived at around 2:40. A friend (AU member northeastern292) who is riding it today says it was a real nail-biter.


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## zephyr17

PRae_Train said:


> [SIZE=10pt]I imagine this scenario would vary a lot depending on the available victuals and ETA. [/SIZE]


The Dinty Moore canned stew feast part is pretty standard.


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