# Doors didn't open



## John (Nov 6, 2013)

Hi,

My 18 year old son was waiting at the West Glacier station for the train last night, train pulls up, stops for a few seconds and off it goes. It was running about 40 min. late. He was there, made eye contact with the conductor when he looked out, saw 'green lights come on like doors were gonna open' and then it pulled away. When he phoned me I could hear the train, within a couple minutes or so a freight train came by he said it was on the same tracks. He had tickets for his segment with that time, date, and train. Like 25 degrees out, nothing open for 15 miles, had to sleep under a picnic table.

Haven't called Amtrak yet. Biggest concern is that he can get on the next train thru, since they can't print tickets at this station which is only open for a couple hours. And now all his segment tickets are 24 hours later. He's going to the coast then all the way down to Yuma, AZ

Other than that you would think they'd be a bit more concerned when they know there's a passenger to pick up in an isolated area. Resorts, gas station, cafe, all closed for the season. Nothing open to get in out of the cold.


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## NW cannonball (Nov 6, 2013)

Seems from what you posted, that Amtrak blew it bad.

Apologists?

Please call Amtrak and ask to speak to Customer Relations. The conductor has a list of passengers boarding at each stop. No way the train should not pick up a passenger with a paid ticket. Ever. If the passenger is on the platform when the train stops.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 6, 2013)

Ditto! Call Customer Relations (not "Service") ASAP! No Excuse for This! :angry:

(Hopefully he was @ West Glacier as you Stated and not East Glacier, which Closes after Oct. 5 and the Stop becomes Browning until Spring!)


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## TinCan782 (Nov 6, 2013)

John said:


> Hi,
> 
> My 18 year old son was waiting at the West Glacier station for the train last night, train pulls up, stops for a few seconds and off it goes. It was running about 40 min. late. He was there, made eye contact with the conductor when he looked out, saw 'green lights come on like doors were gonna open' and then it pulled away. When he phoned me I could hear the train, within a couple minutes or so a freight train came by he said it was on the same tracks. He had tickets for his segment with that time, date, and train. Like 25 degrees out, nothing open for 15 miles, had to sleep under a picnic table.
> 
> ...


If had a reservation/ticket, the conductor should have been aware of a passenger at the station. BTW...the lights by the doors indicate brake status, not door function. Green indicates brakes released.


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## AlanB (Nov 6, 2013)

Did he wave at the conductor and start walking towards him? Or did he just stand where he was and not move?

I ask because all doors will generally not open at that stop. While the conductor should have been expecting him, and frankly should have said something, if your son just stood there doing nothing more after making eye contact it is possible that the conductor didn't think that he was the passenger that was expected and perhaps just a railfan there to observe the train passing by.

And those green lights do not indicate anything related to the doors. This train does not have automatic doors, they are opened manually only. So please tell your son to not pay any attention to those lights as they won't help him.


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## Greg (Nov 6, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Did he wave at the conductor and start walking towards him? Or did he just stand where he was and not move?I ask because all doors will generally not open at that stop. While the conductor should have been expecting him, and frankly should have said something, if your son just stood there doing nothing more after making eye contact it is possible that the conductor didn't think that he was the passenger that was expected and perhaps just a railfan there to observe the train passing by.And those green lights do not indicate anything related to the doors. This train does not have automatic doors, they are opened manually only. So please tell your son to not pay any attention to those lights as they won't help him.


Yes, it was obviously the passenger's fault. He should have been jumping up and down and waving his arms wildly. Riding Amtrak is just that shade of awesome.

/sarc


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

He did not wave at the conductor, or walk toward the doors as he didn't know which ones would open. He remained under a light where he could be seen. It was cold & dark, he was standing on the platform, in a pretty remote area, nothing's open, can't imagine someone would think he's just a train buff watching trains go by! It is West Glacier that's he's at. I was digging for an hour trying to find a place for him to stay or something to do...nothing up there this time of year, 15 miles to a motel that MAY be open, that's a 5 hour walk. Told him to hunker down and stay warm for the night.

He had gotten off there the previous day, planning on hiking some, camp for the night, and catch that train. So he had a sleeping bag, MRE"s, etc. Wound up sleeping under a picnic table at the station. He'll have a good story to tell about two nights under a picnic table!

Gonna call customer relations and see what we can do.

Thanks.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 6, 2013)

There is no excuse for the crew to not open doors at a stop where a passenger or passengers are expected to board. None. In fact, even if the manifest shows no boardings, the crew should still open the doors and check the station just in case a last minute reservation was made.

Didn't we have a similar story here just a few weeks ago?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

Yes, there was a similar story a bit ago, that's how I stumbled on this site!


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## SarahZ (Nov 6, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> There is no excuse for the crew to not open doors at a stop where a passenger or passengers are expected to board. None. In fact, even if the manifest shows no boardings, the crew should still open the doors and check the station just in case a last minute reservation was made.
> 
> Didn't we have a similar story here just a few weeks ago?


Yup. They ended up taking a flashlight the next day so they could get the conductor's attention. They also walked toward the train and waved their arms. It was the same situation (dark, but the station had lighting).


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## Trogdor (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm a little curious why, in a situation like this, your first move is to post on an Internet message board with no affiliation to Amtrak rather than calling Amtrak right away.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> There is no excuse for the crew to not open doors at a stop where a passenger or passengers are expected to board. None. In fact, even if the manifest shows no boardings, the crew should still open the doors and check the station just in case a last minute reservation was made.


Ditto. +1



PRR 60 said:


> Didn't we have a similar story here just a few weeks ago?


Yes, and apparently Amtrak hasn't learned its lesson... yet. Maybe we should take its new Viewliner II's away, until Amtrak starts to show some responsibility.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> I'm a little curious why, in a situation like this, your first move is to post on an Internet message board with no affiliation to Amtrak rather than calling Amtrak right away.


They did a search, and found an on-topic thread here. Sounds innocent enough.

I guess Amtrak's own website doesn't have an official FAQ for "What do I do when Amtrak doesn't stop and just leaves me standing on the platform".



Guest said:


> Yes, there was a similar story a bit ago, that's how I stumbled on this site!


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## hytec (Nov 6, 2013)

Is it possible that your son meant "Engineer" when he told you "Conductor"? The conductor rides inside the cars and is the only authority to tell the engineer when to stop or leave stations based on the conductor's passenger list. The conductor cannot see who is on the platform unless he/she opens a door and looks out. If the engineer waves at a person on the platform, it doesn't mean that he/she will radio the conductor saying that someone is standing on the platform. However, I'll agree that this was a major foul-up on Amtrak's part if your son had a confirmed reservation/ticket for that night at that station.


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## choochoodood (Nov 6, 2013)

After submitting your complaint to Amtrak, be sure to post their response/ resolution on this same thread. I'm very curious about this whole situation.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

Conductor, Engineer, I have no idea who it was, my kid is 18, never been on a train prior to this trip from Washington DC, to Portland, to Yuma. Guess it could have been a passenger he saw stick his head out and he made eye contact with...?? He had a valid ticket I have the itinerary. He was prepared for one night, so two wasn't that big of a deal!

I posted here just to get some ideas, suggestions, etc....because I did see info in the other thread I found thru google. No ill intent at all. Thought I'd try and get some feedback prior to calling.

Spoke to a Customer Relations (thanks for the suggestion), she questioned my story then verified the train was stopped for under a minute, could not explain why someone didn't get off and look around for a ticketed passenger, apologized. Her concern was whether the conductor would allow him to board tonight with a ticket from yesterday. He needs to get to the next town, White Fish, that can issue tickets, and ensure that the train wont just drop him off and leave while he's waiting to reprint new tickets, leaving him stranded for another 24 hours. She told me what to have him say to the conductor, but with further thought decided to open a 'case file' to have a little more clout with the conductor. Either they'll wait for him at White Fish or allow him to go on to Portland on his day old tickets. Once there he has a delay that will allow reprinting for the rest of the adventure!! Skipping one of his planned stops further down the line, he'll end up home at the original planned time.

Thanks for the feedback!


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## SarahZ (Nov 6, 2013)

Hopefully, they can alter the manifest so there's a notation that he'll have a day-old ticket. I'm sorry he had to spend the night in that cold weather, and I'm glad he's okay.


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## NW cannonball (Nov 6, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > There is no excuse for the crew to not open doors at a stop where a passenger or passengers are expected to board. None. In fact, even if the manifest shows no boardings, the crew should still open the doors and check the station just in case a last minute reservation was made.
> ...


Shouldn't the Conductor have the flashlight? And be looking for the paid passenger on the platform? The passenger that the manifest shows WILL be on the platform? And IS there?

If as described - Amtrak totally blew it. Or -- the ticketing should include - like --

"and carry a 200 candlepower lantern of specified red illuminance and wave it at the train. When or if the train stops at the scheduled station - wave your other green (550 nanometer 300 candlepower) lantern at the the point on the train where you think the Conductor might be -- and if (s(he)) sees your signal, they might open the door and let you on"

No, no, no.


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## Ryan (Nov 6, 2013)

Amtrak conductors are human.

Humans make mistakes.

It sounds like in this case and the other one, Amtrak handled the aftermath properly and did what it could to make things right.

Hopefully extra reminders will go out and they'll do better in the future.


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## SarahZ (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm not excusing or defending the conductor. I'm simply explaining what that other passenger did to ensure they wouldn't be missed a second time. I feel bad for the OP's son and was simply offering a suggestion that worked for another passenger in a similar situation.

Edit: That was directed at NW cannonball. Ryan jumped in ahead of me.


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## stan (Nov 6, 2013)

I would call again to double check. At a minimum they should issue a new reservation so that the train is expecting someone and stops. With the existing ticket number thay should be able to make the changes centrally.

If he gets off at White Pass to talk to the ticket agent it is possible that it will not be done in time so again checking with Customer Support to arrange everything in advance is critical.

If the agent does not do anything to communicate with the train crew, and no one else is getting on or off, it is possible the train will not even stop or be looking for someone to pick up

Note also that likely only one door will open on a coach mid train after the diner and not all the doors will open. Its a quick stop so he needs to get next to the train and be real sure they see him. It is up to him to look for the open door and go quickly in that direction so that they see him.

They should also offer a voucher to compensate for the problems.

May need to talk to a supervisor to ensure it all is arranged properly.

Hope that helps.

Stan


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## Ryan (Nov 6, 2013)

I the age of e-tickets, a new printed ticket shouldn't be required. The agent on the phone should be able to modify the reservation on the fly and have it "just work".

I had this happen in the other direction while at the Gathering. I bought my ticket returning from Joliet one day later than the day we were there. Conductor couldn't life the ticket since the day was wrong, he asked me to call the 800 number and straighten it out. Called up, explained I was on the train Right Now, switched the ticket from Sunday to Saturday. By the time I got back to the conductor, the device had been updated and they lifted the ticket. No fuss, no muss.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

There is nothing open where he's at. West Glacier is totally boarded up right now, he has no flashlight, and cant get one. If need be I'll have him build a campfire in the tracks, lol.


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## NW cannonball (Nov 6, 2013)

RyanS said:


> Amtrak conductors are human.
> 
> Humans make mistakes.
> 
> ...


I did mention "apologists" in my earlier response.

A mistake that leaves a passenger waiting 24 hours on the HI-Line (not yet as cold as it will be this year) for the next train -- yes a mistake -- but also a blunder.

"Amtrak handled the aftermath properly and did what it could to make things right." * -- citation needed -- * :unsure:

Doh -- where did you get that "Amtrak handled the aftermath properly and did what it could to make things right." *-- citation needed -- *?? *?? *


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## Hytec (Nov 6, 2013)

The missed pickup has been answered by the OP in his Post #16. He said that his son's ticket was for the night _*before *_the night his son was standing on the platform. So, if interpret his post correctly, his son's name and reservation would _*not *_have been on the conductor's passenger list for that night. So this would not have been Amtrak's fault. I'm sorry that his son was not picked up, but being one night off from his reservation _*is *_a "big deal" with Amtrak, as it is with airlines, and other reserved seat modes of transportation.


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## Swimmingcat (Nov 6, 2013)

Something along the same lines happened to me -- 1984, just out of college, taking a European "student tour" -- Flew San Francisco > London, connecting flight to Amsterdam. Supposed to be met by "AESU" (tour) representative at the bag claim area-- no one there. Even had them paged. Ended up taking train into city, found my hotel (tour start) (actually a canal boat). Turns out that the person from AESU doing the pickup only knew that he had "7 passengers that he was meeting", someone on a 'land-only' itinery (not one of the 7) showed up before I did (apparently), he had his seven, so they left!. I did get reimbursement from the tour group for my train fare.

I am a bit surprised that this occured to the young man in Glacier -- you would think that the conductor and/or car attendant would step off & check the platform quite carefully if they had boarding passengers (especially at night). Perhaps (not to exhonerate the crew), the fact that they were running late, they didn't do this checking as well as they should have (time pressures?). I'm glad that he had gear to spend the night outside.


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## NW cannonball (Nov 6, 2013)

Hytec said:


> The missed pickup has been answered by the OP in his Post #16. He said that his son's ticket was for the night _*before *_the night his son was standing on the platform. So, if interpret his post correctly, his son's name and reservation would _*not *_have been on the conductor's passenger list for that night. So this would not have been Amtrak's fault. I'm sorry that his son was not picked up, but being one night off from his reservation _*is *_a "big deal" with Amtrak, as it is with airlines, and other reserved seat modes of transportation.


Post # 16 -- that was? I don't see that on this thread?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

The reference to the night before....is to him being picked up tonight with a valid ticket dated yesterday. He was on the list of passengers for that route according to customer relations.


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## SarahZ (Nov 6, 2013)

Hytec said:


> The missed pickup has been answered by the OP in his Post #16. He said that his son's ticket was for the night _*before *_the night his son was standing on the platform. So, if interpret his post correctly, his son's name and reservation would _*not *_have been on the conductor's passenger list for that night. So this would not have been Amtrak's fault. I'm sorry that his son was not picked up, but being one night off from his reservation _*is *_a "big deal" with Amtrak, as it is with airlines, and other reserved seat modes of transportation.


No, that was after he called Amtrak. He expressed concern that when his son boards today, it will show yesterday's date (the date he was left there).


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## buddy559 (Nov 6, 2013)

Now I'm getting worried, should I invest a couple bucks in a poster board, and print, "Amtrak passenger, please STOP!!" ?

I'm a little surprised they wouldn't open at least one door, and give an all aboard call, even if they don't have any passengers on the manifest. Someone could have bought a ticket online, or through the app an hour before the train comes in, not sure if they would contact the train every time someone purchases a new ticket.

It just seems they should have at least one conductor, open a door and put 2 feet on the ground, and call, before they take off.


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## amamba (Nov 6, 2013)

I hope the OP comes back and keeps us posted with what happens tonight.

The e-ticket should be updated for all the future legs right by the folks at 1800 USA RAIL. I am not clear why he should need to go into the whitefish station to pick up ANYTHING. When his papers are scanned they should come up with the correct date, even if his print out shows the wrong one.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 6, 2013)

RyanS said:


> It sounds like in this case and the other one, Amtrak handled the aftermath properly and did what it could to make things right.


I'm not sure what definition of "aftermath" or "properly" you're using but for me sleeping under a picnic table in 25 degree weather after the train leaves is anything BUT proper handling. Seriously, if the story is true then it's absurd to say Amtrak handled it properly.



AlanB said:


> Did he wave at the conductor and start walking towards him? Or did he just stand where he was and not move?


Surely you're not implying the paid first time passenger was in any way obligated to get the conductor's attention?



AlanB said:


> I ask because all doors will generally not open at that stop. While the conductor should have been expecting him, and frankly should have said something, if your son just stood there doing nothing more after making eye contact it is possible that the conductor didn't think that he was the passenger that was expected and perhaps just a railfan there to observe the train passing by.


Oh, it appears you _are_ being serious.



AlanB said:


> And those green lights do not indicate anything related to the doors. This train does not have automatic doors, they are opened manually only. So please tell your son to not pay any attention to those lights as they won't help him.


In other words they've been about as much help as the never surrender crowd here at AU.

It's entirely reasonable to challenge the veracity of the claim, in my view anyway, but it's quite another to agree to the general premise and still excuse Amtrak's behavior anyway.


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## amamba (Nov 6, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > It sounds like in this case and the other one, Amtrak handled the aftermath properly and did what it could to make things right.
> ...


DA, what would you have amtrak do in the situation after the train has left? If this happened to you, what kind of request would you make of amtrak to make it right?

As an aside, and I don't mean any victim blaming (its not the pax fault he got left on the platform!!!!), but I'm surprised that the 18 year old called his parents after this happened rather than just calling amtrak. I'm not sure if its a generational thing, but it kind of sounds to me like the parents have taken the lead in trying to fix this and make sure everything is taken care of. Just my own rant about millennials...don't mind me....sometimes I think I have an old soul. #getoffmylawn


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## amamba (Nov 6, 2013)

Sorry that was weird, I meant to quote post #32 not the one that I quoted. Whoops.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 6, 2013)

amamba said:


> DA, what would you have amtrak do in the situation after the train has left? If this happened to you, what kind of request would you make of amtrak to make it right?


Unlike airlines, bus lines, or rental cars, Amtrak does not have any second chances to “properly” handle the aftermath from an unstaffed station. Therefore in order for them to handle it properly maybe they should step off the train and ask the people standing at unstaffed stations If they are passengers. Seriously, how hard is that?



amamba said:


> As an aside, and I don't mean any victim blaming (its not the pax fault he got left on the platform!!!!), but I'm surprised that the 18 year old called his parents after this happened rather than just calling amtrak. I'm not sure if its a generational thing, but it kind of sounds to me like the parents have taken the lead in trying to fix this and make sure everything is taken care of. Just my own rant about millennials...don't mind me....sometimes I think I have an old soul. #getoffmylawn


I’m sure there’s plenty of criticism to go around, but we’re not a forum for discussing intergenerational interaction.

We’re a forum for discussing Amtrak.

Unfortunately we’re diluting our combined wisdom by wasting time coming up with inane excuses.

If the story is true as written then in my view Amtrak screwed up big time.

I didn’t feel the need to say that until the usual apologists showed up to muddy the water.


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## the_traveler (Nov 6, 2013)

You did quote #32.

But I do agree with you. I'm not making assumptions, but an 18 year old is supposedly an adult. Why would he call his parents first before he contacts Amtrak (or whoever has caused the problem - airline, car rental, hotel, restaurant, etc...). They may want to talk to that person directly. (If it was a minor, it would be a different story. When I call on behalf of my brother/sister, they ask to speak to them (who are in the room) to verify that I can discuss their case on their behalf.) The parents then have to contact the son.

I would think the son would contact Amtrak first. I'm not saying that they would do this, but they may have said



> We screwed up! We are authorizing you to take a cab to Spokane tonight (which we will pay for) to meet the Empire Builder in Spokane this evening/tomorrow morning!


By calling his parents first, he missed that opportunity!


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## Garethe7 (Nov 6, 2013)

First of all, my sincere apologies for your son having to endure such a terrible experience, helpless comes to mind. I know the feeling because I've had inner city buses do that to me. Sometimes it was their fault, some drivers are cruel or their having a bad day and take it out on passengers. Other times though I did not do enough to get their attention, with some actually stating on their website to pull out your cell phone or to use a flash light and begin waving it around. I don't know what Amtrak says to do, so I can't take either side on this one, just offering my two cents.

However, I've been trained in customer service and the customer is always right even when you know they are wrong. At the very least your son deserves a couple of complimentary meals or a sleeper if one is available.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

", but I'm surprised that the 18 year old called his parents after this happened rather than just calling amtrak. I'm not sure if its a generational thing,..."

We were texting back and forth due to the train being late. When the train was pulling away he called me. I didn't want him using up his cell phone battery trying to call Amtrak at that hour, and not being able to get an answer. I told him they weren't going to stop the train and reverse it to go get him. I didn't believe there would be anyway to send someone from another town to pick him up and catch up to the train. So my decision was to settle in for the night and I'd call Amtrak this morning, as the next train going his way isn't until this evening...all day to come up with a solution.

Yes, he or I could have called last night. Maybe, if someone with authority was available they could have sent a cab....from 25 miles away to pick him up, could have turned into a multi-hour ordeal, with lot's of room for error. I offered to my son to find a way to get someone to pick him and take him somewhere...figured a couple calls I could stir up someone if I was footing the bill...he said he was fine, he'd stick it out. Mind you, he was out of site, no people around, warm enough, had some grub, and water.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

Guest said:


> If need be I'll have him build a campfire in the tracks, lol.





buddy559 said:


> Now I'm getting worried, should I invest a couple bucks in a poster board, and print, "Amtrak passenger, please STOP!!" ?


Both sound like an appropriate action to take, given Amtrak's track record (a pun!).


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> I'm not making assumptions, but an 18 year old is supposedly an adult. Why would he call his parents first before he contacts Amtrak ...


Back when my kids were 18 years old, they might technically be adults, but that doesn't mean they have experience on how to deal successfully with a large company's reps. They would certainly, always, call me first for advice.

Also, when they were 18, and they needed money, they would call me before going to the bank for a cash loan.


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## tomfuller (Nov 6, 2013)

The train did stop 18 minutes late. Only 1 door opens (possibly 2 if a sleeper passenger is getting on). If the passenger has visible luggage, they should be asked for their name by the Conductor or Assistant.


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## the_traveler (Nov 6, 2013)

There is someone at Amtrak with authority 24 hours a day. They are called Supervisors! And yes, it is possible that they could have contacted and contracted a a cab for your son. It's even possible that they may have provided him a cab, hotel, money for food and expenses and a cab back to the station - all on Amtrak's dime! But instead, by waiting until the morning he (as you said) "slept under a picnic table"!

Amtrak does this sort of thing (providing transportation and/or accommodations) all the time if it's their fault.


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## Acela150 (Nov 6, 2013)

Has anyone else had the thought of Yuma being served three times a week by the Sunset? That creates a whole new ballgame...


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 6, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Has anyone else had the thought of Yuma being served three times a week by the Sunset? That creates a whole new ballgame...


There's even Scarier Places on the Sunset Route like Sanderson,Tx. :help: (Flag Stop/ Station Demolished! There's No There There!)


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## jebr (Nov 6, 2013)

At the end of the day, though, Amtrak really screwed up here, no way around it. A passenger on the platform should be welcomed aboard, not missed, especially at a stop that they have to make and having a passenger that appears to be on the manifest. Period.

There's some good advice in the thread for what to do if Amtrak screws up, but it's still Amtrak's fault, based on the OP's description. In my opinion, Amtrak should offer, at minimum, a full voucher (or even a full refund) along with getting the passenger to the destination. They could also offer a partial voucher plus a sleeper upgrade too, but at the end of the day this is 100% on Amtrak.


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## SarahZ (Nov 6, 2013)

Agreed. This is a shame.


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## PaulM (Nov 6, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> A mistake that leaves a passenger waiting 24 hours on the HI-Line (not yet as cold as it will be this year) for the next train -- yes a mistake -- but also a blunder.
> 
> Doh -- where did you get that "Amtrak handled the aftermath properly and did what it could to make things right." *-- citation needed -- *?? *?? *


No doubt a bad blunder, but the OP said



> Spoke to a Customer Relations (thanks for the suggestion), she questioned my story then verified the train was stopped for under a minute, could not explain why someone didn't get off and look around for a ticketed passenger, apologized.


and then went on to describe the solution. I'm always impressed when a large organization after a screw up admits a mistake rather than giving the customer the bum's rush. I was especially impressed that CR would be able to verify so quickly that the train hadn't actually stopped to pick up passengers and admitted it to the customer.

Now CR should have issued a transportation certificate right then and there.


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## PaulM (Nov 6, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> There is someone at Amtrak with authority 24 hours a day. They are called Supervisors! And yes, it is possible that they could have contacted and contracted a a cab for your son. It's even possible that they may have provided him a cab, hotel, money for food and expenses and a cab back to the station - all on Amtrak's dime! But instead, by waiting until the morning he (as you said) "slept under a picnic table"!


This is what I love about AU - you learn something new when you least expect it. The first thing I would have done is call the 800 number. But when the rep told me that I would have to talk to CR who was not open, that I would have to call back tomorrow, I would have been stymied. Even after hanging around here for 5 years, I didn't know about supervisors. I assume you aren't talking about reservation agent supervisors.

Regarding the millennial comment, I have no use for helicopter parents either. But after thinking about it, I like the kid. First of all, it looks like he was backpacking, probably a demographic even smaller than Amtrak riders, and by himself at that. Then he sleeps under a picnic bench without the drama queen/king attitude.


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## PaulM (Nov 6, 2013)

> If he gets off at White Pass to talk to the ticket agent it is possible that it will not be done in time so again checking with Customer Support to arrange everything in advance is critical.


Make that Whitefilsh.



> If the agent does not do anything to communicate with the train crew, and no one else is getting on or off, it is possible the train will not even stop or be looking for someone to pick up


West Glacier doesn't have an agent. Nor is it a flag stop, so the train should stop.



> Note also that likely only one door will open on a coach mid train after the diner and not all the doors will open. Its a quick stop so he needs to get next to the train and be real sure they see him.


The only station that I know of that has signs designating where a passenger is supposed to go is Denver. The EB is the longest or 2nd longest train in the system, so how would the poor guy know where to stand. How would he even know where the diner is?



> It is up to him to look for the open door and go quickly in that direction so that they see him.


I think this thesis has already been pretty well shot down.


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## amamba (Nov 6, 2013)

PaulM said:


> Regarding the millennial comment, I have no use for helicopter parents either. But after thinking about it, I like the kid. First of all, it looks like he was backpacking, probably a demographic even smaller than Amtrak riders, and by himself at that. Then he sleeps under a picnic bench without the drama queen/king attitude.


Paul I agree that the kid was very resourceful.

At the end of the day, Amtrak messed up BIG time on this one. Hopefully they make it right. I am eagerly awaiting to hear what happens tonight. I hope that the OP's son makes it onto the train tonight.


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## VentureForth (Nov 6, 2013)

Guest said:


> Spoke to a Customer Relations (thanks for the suggestion), she questioned my story then verified the train was stopped for under a minute, could not explain why someone didn't get off and look around for a ticketed passenger, apologized. Her concern was whether the conductor would allow him to board tonight with a ticket from yesterday. He needs to get to the next town, White Fish, that can issue tickets, and ensure that the train wont just drop him off and leave while he's waiting to reprint new tickets, leaving him stranded for another 24 hours. She told me what to have him say to the conductor, but with further thought decided to open a 'case file' to have a little more clout with the conductor. Either they'll wait for him at White Fish or allow him to go on to Portland on his day old tickets. Once there he has a delay that will allow reprinting for the rest of the adventure!! Skipping one of his planned stops further down the line, he'll end up home at the original planned time.


In this whole thread, this is the only point where I see that Amtrak did anything close to "handle the situation properly". And if this is indeed how Amtrak played (which I don't doubt), I am certainly disappointed as it is anything BUT proper.

The fact that this is the SECOND time in recent days that this has happened. When something this egregious happens, I would expect bells and whistles on EVERY conductor's iPhone to go off and require an acknowledgement to avoid something like this.

As far as a proper resolution goes, the bare minimum should have been an immediate "Stay where you are - your ticket will be valid for the next train." Customer service should never try to confuse someone with going to the next stop, hope you can reprint your tickets, etc. etc. Conductors can make the numbers work. With E-Tickets, there is NO excuse.

Next, they should have done EVERYTHING possible to get your son to the train - though that would be pretty tough. If nothing else, transit to the next town and a hotel room would be what I'd ask for.

Finally, I'm not into firing for offenses like this as much as I believe that reprimanding is important. If a conductor can lose his job - or at least be lashed 40 times with a wet noodle - for letting a passenger miss his stop, I think the same action should be taken for not making due effort in picking up passengers.

Anyway, tonight's train seems to be running 2 1/2 hours late. I hope your son is aboard, warm, and fed!


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## tonys96 (Nov 6, 2013)

Agreed that the folks on the EB really screwed the pooch on this one. The "blame the passenger" feeling that came out earlier in the thread is unfortunate.

Glad it wasn't a family with small children.......


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## AlanB (Nov 6, 2013)

Greg said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Did he wave at the conductor and start walking towards him? Or did he just stand where he was and not move?I ask because all doors will generally not open at that stop. While the conductor should have been expecting him, and frankly should have said something, if your son just stood there doing nothing more after making eye contact it is possible that the conductor didn't think that he was the passenger that was expected and perhaps just a railfan there to observe the train passing by.And those green lights do not indicate anything related to the doors. This train does not have automatic doors, they are opened manually only. So please tell your son to not pay any attention to those lights as they won't help him.
> ...


I never suggested that it was the passenger's fault. But leave it to an extremist like you to read more into the simple questions that I asked.

Again, I said that the conductor should have done more. But at the same time, simply standing there and not doing anything isn't exactly the correct response either. If one sees someone sticking their head out of a door, then one should at least wave, move towards that open door, wave, etc.


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## AlanB (Nov 6, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Did he wave at the conductor and start walking towards him? Or did he just stand where he was and not move?
> ...


No, I wasn't. But leave it to you to read more into everything that anyone says to suit your slanted view of everything Amtrak. :angry:

But common sense should also make one react to the fact that other doors aren't opening and that one should be proactive if one doesn't wish to get left behind.



Devil's Advocate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And those green lights do not indicate anything related to the doors. This train does not have automatic doors, they are opened manually only. So please tell your son to not pay any attention to those lights as they won't help him.
> ...


This isn't about surrendering, even though you'd like it to be, since it allows you to do the same.

The OP John made mention of the fact that his son observed the lights and assumed that meant that the doors were about to open. Unlike you, I provided helpful information that he could convey to his son with whom he was in contact with so as to avoid having his son make the same mistake again.

But of course you'd much rather just sit there and continue to assume the worst!



Devil's Advocate said:


> It's entirely reasonable to challenge the veracity of the claim, in my view anyway, but it's quite another to agree to the general premise and still excuse Amtrak's behavior anyway.


I didn't do that, but of course you wanted to believe that so you ignored the part of my statement where I clearly stated that the conductor should have done more.



Devil's Advocate said:


> I didn’t feel the need to say that until the usual apologists showed up to muddy the water.


The only one muddying the water here would seem to be you. You're the one reading what you want to believe into the statements & questions that I posted.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 6, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Greg said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Given the situation as described, there is no way the passenger has any culpability here. None whatsoever. I'm sorry, but there is no reason for a passenger to assume that a train would stop at a scheduled station then leave without opening the doors to allow boarding. I certainly would not assume that, and I've been around the travel track a few times. I would stand there and assume the doors would open momentarily. Once the train started to move, it would be too late.

As described, Amtrak is 100% at fault. Not 95% or 99% - 100%. If something happened to the kid overnight. and thank goodness it did not, Amtrak would have been in serious hot water - and rightly so.


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## AlanB (Nov 6, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Greg said:
> ...


Suggesting that someone be proactive doesn't absolve Amtrak of any blame. The two don't go hand in hand.


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## John (Nov 6, 2013)

Quite the discussion today! Wow!

Looks like from the track a train page the train is running 1hr 25min late. Kid said he got a text saying it would be at West Glacier at 9:40. Will post if/when he gets on.


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## John (Nov 6, 2013)

Couldn't get the pics to post...but maybe you can copy and past....?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10718926843/in/photostream/

If it works...that's the sleeping arrangements

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10718744376/in/photostream/

And that's why he wanted to travel in that area!

Preview shows they posted as links....hope so!


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## Blackwolf (Nov 6, 2013)

John said:


> Couldn't get the pics to post...but maybe you can copy and past....?
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10718926843/in/photostream/
> 
> ...


The links worked. Looks *coooold!* But that lake is mighty beautiful!

Really looking forward to what happens this evening.


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## SarahZ (Nov 6, 2013)

Oh man. Your kid is tough.


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## John (Nov 6, 2013)

Think he turned into the 'Cookie Monster' up there

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10718928173/in/photostream/

Quick story behind all this....He's due to join the Air Force soon, oldest brother is a Marine on the west coast so he sees him often, next brother is in the Air Force in Maryland, Wanted to spend some time with his brother on the east coast...you know how families get separated. We were talking about my boyhood days hopping freights in Illinois and he asked about riding a train back from Maryland. I told him if he put up the money for the round trip flight, I'd pay the difference and he could ride the train across country. Don't know if an opportunity like that would ever be available again...service, jobs, life, etc. He chose the route, wanted to see the north, having grown up down here in the desert! Well he got to see it alright!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 6, 2013)

Your son likes my kind of adventure! Bravo and kudos!  When I have the time, I ride all over the place just for the heck of seeing that place, even if it's flat plains for miles.


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## John (Nov 6, 2013)

Swadian...Thanks!

Just got a txt from the kid. He's on the train, they'll allow him time at Whitefish to get new tickets, won't leave without him.

Thanks all for the comments, etc. Will update in the morning.


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## Dan O (Nov 7, 2013)

John said:


> Swadian...Thanks!
> 
> Just got a txt from the kid. He's on the train, they'll allow him time at Whitefish to get new tickets, won't leave without him.
> 
> Thanks all for the comments, etc. Will update in the morning.


Glad to hear that. Thankfully he was prepared for the night on the ground.

Hope the rest of this trip goes MUCH better.

Dan


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## the_traveler (Nov 7, 2013)

John said:


> Just got a txt from the kid. He's on the train, they'll allow him time at Whitefish to get new tickets, won't leave without him.


I'm still confused! What new tickets must he get? :huh: 
With e-ticketing, it's all electronic. The conductor can even look up his name on his scanner, so there is really no need for new tickets! (As an example, I had to switch my reservation less than 30 minutes before departure. When the conductor came around to scan tickets, I was in my room with the curtain shut. I took a little too long to answer, and the conductor asked "David?" - Remember that I was not even assigned that room 30 minutes before! The only way he would have known my name was by looking it up on his scanner!)


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## John (Nov 7, 2013)

Tickets, voucher, I don't know, he did like a 15 day pass allowing 8 segments of travel. He has something printed that shows the 'reservations' and customer relations was concerned that he might have issues if he didn't pick up new 'tickets' with updated times and dates. He just texted a couple minutes ago...office was closed, guess the office person is the baggage handler and was unloading, go figure! Office re-opened he got his new 'tickets', back on the train headed to Portland! All is well!!


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## the_traveler (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm glad he's on the train!


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## buddy559 (Nov 7, 2013)

John said:


> Tickets, voucher, I don't know, he did like a 15 day pass allowing 8 segments of travel. He has something printed that shows the 'reservations' and customer relations was concerned that he might have issues if he didn't pick up new 'tickets' with updated times and dates. He just texted a couple minutes ago...office was closed, guess the office person is the baggage handler and was unloading, go figure! Office re-opened he got his new 'tickets', back on the train headed to Portland! All is well!!


Glad to hear he is back on trak. Thanks for sharing the story and pictures, sounds like he is the type who can make the best out of a bad situation.


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## shelzp (Nov 7, 2013)

Thank you for giving the update! Looks like he's got his cold weather survival training out of the way! Wild story and sounds like he handled himself perfectly-I know you've got to be proud of him and his brothers who are in service as well.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks all!

Yes, very proud of all three! I think this one has gotten quite a bit of training on this trip.


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## Everydaymatters (Nov 7, 2013)

PaulM said:


> Regarding the millennial comment, I have no use for helicopter parents either. But after thinking about it, I like the kid. First of all, it looks like he was backpacking, probably a demographic even smaller than Amtrak riders, and by himself at that. Then he sleeps under a picnic bench without the drama queen/king attitude.


I like him too, Paul. The fact that he was in contact with his father shows that a trusting relationship exists there. And as you said-no drama. Kudos to both father and son.


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## Ryan (Nov 7, 2013)

Glad to hear it, sounds like you've got a good kid there.

Perhaps the rail pass explains why he needed new tickets, do they still need paper tickets?


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## Steve4031 (Nov 7, 2013)

This family is a winner IMHO.


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## Ryan (Nov 7, 2013)

This one and the other one that had this happen on the Cardinal recently both.

It's easy to imagine a guest poster showing up here absolutely irate and just venting about how Amtrak is the worst and they're going to sue and call their congressperson and we're all stupid for liking Amtrak and yeah, they should have gotten out of their car and gone to the platform when they saw the train but IT'S AMTRACKS FAULT THEY SHOULD HAVE WAITED FOR ME!!!11!1!!!

Instead, both were level headed, and rolled with the punches. Sad that they were put in the situation and hopefully Amtrak will take corrective measures, but they handled it way better than most would.


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## benjibear (Nov 7, 2013)

Maybe Amtrak needs to install "flags" at the flag stops.


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## TraneMan (Nov 7, 2013)

Glad to see you son made it on the train, and he's out doing some adventure! I bet that warm train felt good to get on!


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## Garethe7 (Nov 7, 2013)

John said:


> Tickets, voucher, I don't know, he did like a 15 day pass allowing 8 segments of travel. He has something printed that shows the 'reservations' and customer relations was concerned that he might have issues if he didn't pick up new 'tickets' with updated times and dates. He just texted a couple minutes ago...office was closed, guess the office person is the baggage handler and was unloading, go figure! Office re-opened he got his new 'tickets', back on the train headed to Portland! All is well!!


I'm so glad it worked out for you, I thought about your son's situation off/on yesterday. I wish him the best of luck with his military future. Peace.

Edit to add: if he can handle sleeping under a table in freezing weather, then boot camp should be a cinch, perhaps even some kind of special ops down the road. Resourcefulness and ingenuity are huge when it comes to survival situations.


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## the_traveler (Nov 7, 2013)

benjibear said:


> Maybe Amtrak needs to install "flags" at the flag stops.


The thing is West Glacier IS NOT a flag stop. The train always stops there.


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## Golden grrl (Nov 7, 2013)

RyanS said:


> This one and the other one that had this happen on the Cardinal recently both.
> 
> It's easy to imagine a guest poster showing up here absolutely irate and just venting about how Amtrak is the worst and they're going to sue and call their congressperson and we're all stupid for liking Amtrak and yeah, they should have gotten out of their car and gone to the platform when they saw the train but IT'S AMTRACKS FAULT THEY SHOULD HAVE WAITED FOR ME!!!11!1!!!
> 
> Instead, both were level headed, and rolled with the punches. Sad that they were put in the situation and hopefully Amtrak will take corrective measures, but they handled it way better than most would.


Good summary, Ryan.

I am impressed that the young traveler was so responsible and resourceful, AND that he anticipates entering the service. Thanks to him and his parents for their contributions to the nation.

I've learned some lessons in this thread that will be valuable to me, too, in considering alternatives should I ever have a similar situation. #1 lesson for me is to keep that cell phone battery fully charged. I hate using the phone and probably would have forgotten that tidbit.


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## VentureForth (Nov 7, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> benjibear said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe Amtrak needs to install "flags" at the flag stops.
> ...


Interestingly, I don't think this would have happened at a true flag stop, because IIRC they have methods with which they can create visibility to the loco engineer of their presence (usually a light switch).

Some "true" flag stops in Canada and perhaps Alaska can be anywhere along the track - you give a date and mile post info to the phone agent and they'll tell the engineer to expect you. Don't believe Amtrak offers that level of convenience anywhere in their system.

The fact that this was on a rail pass makes a little more sense as to the need for re-ticketing, but I still thought and believe that everything can be done electronically. That's the part that I wish someone from Amtrak could explain. I know it's more and more rare in this day and age, but what if he didn't have a cell phone? What if there was no cell phone coverage? My goodness! WHAT IF HE HAD AT&T??? This is a very good case study which, if we understand it correctly, could be used to help out future passengers in this forum.


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## Nathanael (Nov 7, 2013)

RyanS said:


> Amtrak conductors are human.
> 
> Humans make mistakes.


This falls in the "firing offense" category of mistake, however. Quite possibly the most important regular job of the conductor, outside emergencies, is to pick people up at flag stops.



> It sounds like in this case and the other one, Amtrak handled the aftermath properly and did what it could to make things right.
> 
> Hopefully extra reminders will go out and they'll do better in the future.


Indeed, hopefully the conductors involved will be fired with cause.


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## Nathanael (Nov 7, 2013)

benjibear said:


> Maybe Amtrak needs to install "flags" at the flag stops.


 That's an idea. Though I was just reminded that West Glacier isn't a flag stop, so I suppose Amtrak would need flags at every unstaffed station!


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## Ryan (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm not ready to jump on the "fire him/her" bandwagon, sorry.

I'm not saying (s)he shouldn't either, just that we have insufficient info to make that call from behind a keyboard hundreds or thousands of miles away.


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## Walt (Nov 8, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak conductors are human.
> ...


As any good company, I would expect Amtrak to investigate this thoroughly, to see if there were extenuating circumstances. However, not stopping at a station, especially one that has a ticketed passenger waiting on the platform, is to me, definitely cause to fire a conductor. Or at least, demote that person to a lower position where they would not be burdened with responsibilities they can't successfully handle.

This does have me wondering (and I am not attempting to come up with an excuse for this conductor), does Amtrak have any policies regarding station stops? For example, is there a minimum "open door" time at any station? A requirement that the conductor actually step out of the train, and onto the platform, to look both ways for any boarding passengers?


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## VentureForth (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm sure someone has the blue book and can post chapter and verse...


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## Swimmingcat (Nov 8, 2013)

Walt said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > RyanS said:
> ...


That is a very good question (policy for station stops). Some of the stops on the Zephyr are in the middle of Nevada, where on winter nights people might be waiting in their cars until the train comes. I wonder if the conductor, if they are expecting boarding passengers, takes a look in the parking lot or even down the road to see if a vehicle is approaching?. I would think that they must have some written policy on this; hard to believe that the Glacier incident occurred (unless something was amiss).


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## chakk (Nov 8, 2013)

benjibear said:


> Maybe Amtrak needs to install "flags" at the flag stops.


I have seen flags available in past years at flag stops. Maybe they've been eliminated because they were being placed out on the platform by malcontents just to stop a train that otherwise might have coasted thru?

Or maybe they were being stolen? (which would be a virtual guarantee today if the signs were made of copper).


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2013)

VentureForth said:


> I'm sure someone has the blue book and can post chapter and verse...


I am hoping for such.

IMHO, if there isn't already, there should be a requirement that the doors be open at least for, say, 2 minutes at each station. Sorry, but if a train is running 40 minutes late, or 6 hours late, those two minutes aren't going to make a heck of a difference to their trip time. But it will make a major difference to that passenger waiting alone on a platform in the middle of a cold night.


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## jis (Nov 8, 2013)

chakk said:


> benjibear said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe Amtrak needs to install "flags" at the flag stops.
> ...


OK. One more time for those who missed it...... West Glacier is NOT a flag stop. It is a scheduled stop. So whether there is a flag or not at West Glacier is irrelevant.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 8, 2013)

Swimmingcat said:


> Walt said:
> 
> 
> > Nathanael said:
> ...


Williams Junction, Arizona would be a Perfect Example of this! There's No There There! And the Van that Picks Up/Drops Off Passengers in the Dark to take them to the Grand Canyon is the Only thing Around for Miles! Wonder what Folks do that Drive themselves to this Stop? Or do they go to Flagstaff to Catch the Train/Pickup Passengers??? :hi:


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## NW cannonball (Nov 8, 2013)

jis said:


> chakk said:
> 
> 
> > benjibear said:
> ...


And in these days of electronic manifests, the conductor *should* know in advance if, and how many, pax are scheduled to board, flagstop or otherwise.


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## June the Coach Rider (Nov 8, 2013)

RyanS said:


> Glad to hear it, sounds like you've got a good kid there.
> 
> Perhaps the rail pass explains why he needed new tickets, do they still need paper tickets?


The dates of the rail pass are beginning and end dates and the reservations have to match. If his trip starts a day later, then the 15 days is a day later and it can mess up all the rest of the reservations, so yes, he would need new paper tickets with the new dates.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 8, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Common sense should also make one react to the fact that other doors aren't opening and that one should be proactive if one doesn't wish to get left behind.


I don’t see how there was enough time to realize something was wrong and alert anyone before the train was already moving again.



AlanB said:


> The OP John made mention of the fact that his son observed the lights and assumed that meant that the doors were about to open. Unlike you, I provided helpful information that he could convey to his son with whom he was in contact with so as to avoid having his son make the same mistake again.


This doesn't sound like the kind of kid that would miss a train due to being confused by the lights.



AlanB said:


> You ignored the part of my statement where I clearly stated that the conductor should have done more.


You also said that just before you went into how the passenger didn’t do his own “common sense proactive” waving of arms and shouting at whoever happens to be around in the span of sixty seconds or whatever he had available to him. One step forward and two steps back.



AlanB said:


> The only one muddying the water here would seem to be you. You're the one reading what you want to believe into the statements & questions that I posted.


You seem absolutely convinced that Amtrak is almost never 100% at fault. There’s almost always something the other side did that must be discovered (or simply imagined) and pointed out to everyone else. This thread being no exception. Oddly enough you don’t seem to have any similar problem assigning the passenger 100% of the blame when they're at fault.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2013)

All is still going well. He did find a 'rock climbing' gym in Portald to goof on in and it had a shower! Guess he was feeling a bit grungy as that was a big deal to him. As long as he makes the train change in L.A. in about an hour...he'll be home at 4am. Will post back.


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## Rule G (Nov 8, 2013)

At most of the smaller stations, trains are only scheduled to be there for one minute.

Managers are constantly warning conductors not to exceed the scheduled dwell time.

Paper manifest or electronic, there are quite a few people who are expected but end up not being there when the train arrives.

A conductor, especially on a late train isnt't going to spend a lot of time looking around for someone.

A lot of the western trains have about 40 station stops over the duration of their run, add a minute or two waiting at each of these stops and people are going to be missing connections at the end points.


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## Ryan (Nov 8, 2013)

Walt said:


> This does have me wondering (and I am not attempting to come up with an excuse for this conductor), does Amtrak have any policies regarding station stops? For example, is there a minimum "open door" time at any station? A requirement that the conductor actually step out of the train, and onto the platform, to look both ways for any boarding passengers?


The Blue Book says the conductor "must be on the platform at all station stops".


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## jis (Nov 8, 2013)

Given the info we have received so far clearly the Conductor failed to follow the rules in this case. But this also would not be the first time that a bad apple Conductor played a little fast and loose with rules either.

(null)


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## SarahZ (Nov 8, 2013)

Yeah, I'm still putting 100% on the conductor for this one. The young man was on the platform, bag in hand, so there's absolutely no excuse. I've hung around at KAL watching the Wolverine before, and 99% of the time, the conductor asks if I'm joining them before shutting the door. The only time I haven't been asked is when I hang back and make it really obvious I'm not joining them (i.e. stand by the station and wave at the train).

Also, until this thread, I would have thought green lights by the doors meant they were opening too.


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## GG-1 (Nov 8, 2013)

Aloha

Something I do not remember being said, but at night sometimes the light color may make the color of some clothes disappear, It is quit possible the conductor did not see anybody. Also many people have nite vision problems.

Many times in my job in theater I have been on stage in full view of the audience but still invisible due to our dress and lighting used. So it may just be an unfortunate error.


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Common sense should also make one react to the fact that other doors aren't opening and that one should be proactive if one doesn't wish to get left behind.
> ...


I'm sure you don't.



Devil's Advocate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The OP John made mention of the fact that his son observed the lights and assumed that meant that the doors were about to open. Unlike you, I provided helpful information that he could convey to his son with whom he was in contact with so as to avoid having his son make the same mistake again.
> ...


If that were true, then he wouldn't have told his dad what he did. You should really try reading what gets written instead of making things up to suit your version of reality.



Devil's Advocate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > You ignored the part of my statement where I clearly stated that the conductor should have done more.
> ...


Just more nonsense from you.



Devil's Advocate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The only one muddying the water here would seem to be you. You're the one reading what you want to believe into the statements & questions that I posted.
> ...


Nope! Never said that. That's you pretending that you have any clue what I'm thinking, much less saying, and pretending that you're an advocate for anything. On the other hand, it most certainly does seem that you are 100% convinced that Amtrak is always at fault. I spend my time trying to figure out what happened and why. You spend your time trying to twist my words to suit whatever you think fits with your desire to bash Amtrak all the time.

But regardless, waving at the conductor or moving towards him after making eye contact is simply a pro-active move on the part of the person. It in NO way shape or form abdicates Amtrak of any responsibility for leaving him on that platform. Except in your mind, because you've decided that your job is to translate what everyone says into what you want them to have said.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 9, 2013)

Alan, I genuinely believe Amtrak was in the wrong in this case and I'm not afraid to say so despite your endless bullying. I have no idea what you think because you keep claiming it's anything BUT what you actually wrote. Say what you will about my positions and my posts but at least they're clear on where I stand.


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## NW cannonball (Nov 9, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> Yeah, I'm still putting 100% on the conductor for this one. The young man was on the platform, bag in hand, so there's absolutely no excuse. I've hung around at KAL watching the Wolverine before, and 99% of the time, the conductor asks if I'm joining them before shutting the door. The only time I haven't been asked is when I hang back and make it really obvious I'm not joining them (i.e. stand by the station and wave at the train).
> 
> Also, until this thread, I would have thought green lights by the doors meant they were opening too.


The green lights by the doors, on the Builder at least, the only train I've observed closely

- the green lights mean - train brakes released -and- door *not* open. When a door is open the light turns yellow. The light by the door also goes yellow when the trainline air brakes are applied. The brakes on the engine are independent and don't affect the lights on the car sides by the doors. Based on about 15 years of observing Superliners in Saint Paul.

So - those green or yellow lights by the doors have nothing to do with whether a door will or will not open. If all those lights are all green, means all the doors are latched and the train brakes are off. The "all aboard" should have already happened, the doors are latched shut, two toots and away the train goes. Counterintuitive - yes. Those green lights aren't welcoming, they mean "ready to highball"

If you are on the platform, and see one yellow light and an open door in a "sea of green" - hightail it for the yellow light (forget the Bardo Thodol) and wave your arms and shout. On the Builder anyway, or probably any Superliner consist.


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## NW cannonball (Nov 9, 2013)

John said:


> Think he turned into the 'Cookie Monster' up there
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10718928173/in/photostream/
> 
> Quick story behind all this....He's due to join the Air Force soon, oldest brother is a Marine on the west coast so he sees him often, next brother is in the Air Force in Maryland, Wanted to spend some time with his brother on the east coast...you know how families get separated. We were talking about my boyhood days hopping freights in Illinois and he asked about riding a train back from Maryland. I told him if he put up the money for the round trip flight, I'd pay the difference and he could ride the train across country. Don't know if an opportunity like that would ever be available again...service, jobs, life, etc. He chose the route, wanted to see the north, having grown up down here in the desert! Well he got to see it alright!


The photos you posted -- wow.



> Couldn't get the pics to post...but maybe you can copy and past....?
> 
> http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/
> 
> ...


Bless him for visiting the "frozen north" - *and *being well-prepared and competent.

My daughter in the Navy can't wait to get back on leave to visit Minnesota in January. "It's *always *100 degrees in this engine room :unsure: "

Sometimes a person just needs to cool down.

Edit - (Oh, and "nudge nudge - wink wink - say nomore"- - that thought just might apply - the cool down thought -- to some subthread here -- just sayin)


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Alan, I genuinely believe Amtrak was in the wrong in this case and I'm not afraid to say so despite your endless bullying. I have no idea what you think because you keep claiming it's anything BUT what you actually wrote. Say what you will about my positions and my posts but at least they're clear on where I stand.


Yeah, your thoughts are clear to you. The problem remains that you are thinking for everyone else and not reading what they actually wrote. John wrote the following quote from his son:



John said:


> He was there, made eye contact with the conductor when he looked out, *saw 'green lights come on like doors were gonna open'* and then it pulled away.


Yet according to you, his son wasn't thinking that those lights had anything to do with the doors. And I wasn't the only one who mentioned that the light had nothing to do with the doors; even though you singled me out.

I know that many here agree with me, you're not advocating for anyone; sadly most of the time you just seem intent on causing & creating disruption and hassling people.


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## SarahZ (Nov 9, 2013)

Thanks, NW. I didn't know all that about the lights. I've never really paid attention to them before.


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2013)

Ps. I too believe that Amtrak's conductor screwed up here and I have never said otherwise. But unlike you, I've been trying to help and provide suggestions to ensure that even if the next conductor were to make some of the same mistakes, that maybe John's son could prevent Amtrak from making the same mistake as unlikely as that scenario was. You however had to twist that to what you believe, that I was defending Amtrak; not what I said.

Being in a position to prevent Amtrak from making a mistake doesn't mean that Amtrak didn't make a mistake. But it does lessen the chance that John's son could have spent a second night camped out under that bench.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 9, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Ps. I too believe that Amtrak's conductor screwed up here and I have never said otherwise. But unlike you, I've been trying to help and provide suggestions to ensure that even if the next conductor were to make some of the same mistakes, that maybe John's son could prevent Amtrak from making the same mistake as unlikely as that scenario was. You however had to twist that to what you believe, that I was defending Amtrak; not what I said.
> 
> Being in a position to prevent Amtrak from making a mistake doesn't mean that Amtrak didn't make a mistake. But it does lessen the chance that John's son could have spent a second night camped out under that bench.


However, when you say there were things the passenger could have done to prevent the problem, you are placing some of the blame on the passenger. I disagree. Though it was originally stated that the passenger made eye contact with the conductor, it was later stated that:



> "Conductor, Engineer, I have no idea who it was, my kid is 18, never been on a train prior to this trip from Washington DC, to Portland, to Yuma. Guess it could have been a passenger he saw stick his head out and he made eye contact with...??"


So, it is very possible that the person he made eye contact with was not the conductor at all and hand waving or jumping up would have made no difference.

The bottom line is the train made a station stop and somehow did not board a passenger waiting at that station standing under a light leaving him to spend a night sleeping under a bench. The color of the lights on the side of the train, or whether there even are lights makes no difference. There is no excuse for him not being on that train. It was a 100% Amtrak foul up and the passenger shares no blame. There are no excuses or mitigating circumstances that take any of the blame off Amtrak.


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## greatcats (Nov 9, 2013)

Hello Jim Hudson - Please permit me to clarify Williams Junction, Arizona, which I have used several times. It is an unusual arrangement, but works quite well. It is marked as railroad property and passengers are not supposed to enter the area in their own vehicles, although I have seen last time a private vehicle meet passengers getting off the train. The only vehicle present should be the van ( or minibus, or large bus, depending on the number of passengers ) that operates from the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel in downtown Williams. It is about a three mile drive, which includes a spooky run through dark, unmarked forest roads. There is a short platform and the van driver turns on the platform lights and the van or bus serves as a waiting room in the minutes prior to the train arrival. There is little chance of a passenger being left behind, as the driver is also looking out for them. In the unlikely event that the van broke down or somehow became stuck enroute to the Junction, then I would expect the conductor would be on the radio inquiring what to do, and would not leave passengers getting off out in the middle of the woods to their own devices..

Passengers using this stop are not necessarily going to the Grand Canyon. I used it once this year, as I preferred to park my car at the hotel. Gazing at the Milky Way at 3:45 am at Williams Junction, AZ has to be one of the more exciting experiences in travel. :excl: I also learned that if there is a large crowd, the big bus they have for that purpose is an old MCI stick shift that I used to drive at Grand Canyon. Also, I will add that the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel lobby makes a nice place to wait in the middle of the night and the hotel staff has a manifest of expected passengers.


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## CHamilton (Nov 9, 2013)

Boarding at Essex, MT is arranged almost identically to how greatcats describes Williams Jct. The Izaak Walton Inn picks up and delivers passengers in a van, although the platform is only a few hundred feet from the hotel.

When I arrived in Essex last May, the inn was not expecting me, so I walked the short distance. They were very surprised and apologetic. But it was easy, because the walk is pretty flat and there's no way to get lost. I had been there before, so I knew where I was going, and a couple staying at the inn had come down to watch the train go by, so we walked back together. Had the weather been bad, I'm sure that I could have called the inn, now that Essex finally has cell service.

I should also mention that when I caught the train at Williams a few years ago, it was running several hours late, so the hotel gave me a room at no charge and woke me up in time to catch the van in the middle of the night. I was very appreciative, although they gave me a smoking room, and the atmosphere made it almost impossible to sleep.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> So, it is very possible that the person he made eye contact with was not the conductor at all and hand waving or jumping up would have made no difference.


As we go down some of these tangents, IMHO, it makes Amtrak only more at fault.

If it wasn't the conductor, but instead an assistant conductor, the engineer, the LSA, or a SCA, any and all off them had a clear duty, IMHO, to notify the actual conductor that there is a passenger on the platform waiting to board. If they didn't, this doesn't lessen the fault of the conductor one bit, but it does add that Amtrak employee to the list for major disciplinarian actions.

The bottom line should be, no matter how late a train is running, the conductor should never, ever, attempt to make up time by sliding thru a station and thus skipping a ticketed passenger.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 9, 2013)

:hi: Thanks for the Info on Williams Junction Guys! I've only been through there on the SWC and I always thought it was sort of Spooky in the Dark, but Now I Understand how it Works! Essex I was more familiar with, sounds like the Izaak Walton Inn Folks really have it Together for their Guests!


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## Ispolkom (Nov 9, 2013)

> However, when you say there were things the passenger could have done to prevent the problem, you are placing some of the blame on the passenger.


I guess it's a matter of perspective, but I can't agree with this. Obviously the conductor screwed up not picking up the OP's son. Obviously it's Amtrak's fault. And obviously the OP's son should get a big voucher for future travel.

Nevertheless, we live in a world where Amtrak occasionally screws up this way. Given that fact, what's wrong with offering a counsel of prudence as to what passengers in similar situations should do to make sure that they are not left out in the cold?


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## jis (Nov 9, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> However, when you say there were things the passenger could have done to prevent the problem, you are placing some of the blame on the passenger.


IMHO that is a mighty extreme interpretation. But hey this is a free country, and everyone is allowed to have an opinion, if not two  I tend to agree more with Ispolkom's position. Giving a piece of advice for future consideration to reduce the chance of an event is hardly placing blame on anyone for anything.


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## June the Coach Rider (Nov 9, 2013)

In my opinion, part of the problem is that there are no signs at stations for where particular classes of passengers should stand. Sleepers are usually up front and the coach cars are far away from the actual station. When people stand at the station, thinking that they will open a door close to them, that causes the issue. Especially for the unstaffed stations, there should be signs for where sleeper and coach passengers should stand to board.


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## oregon pioneer (Nov 9, 2013)

I frequently board at an unstaffed station (CMO), and Amtrak appears to have well-defined procedures for identifying passengers and getting them on the train in a timely fashion at these short stops. When my train arrives, there is always at least one window open with an attendant or conductor hanging out the window as the train pulls in. The passenger's name is called, or "coach this car" or "sleeper pax up front" or some such is called out. These procedures _*clearly *_were not followed in this case.

That said, there are things a passenger can do to make the attendants' job easier, such as raising a hand and hoisting the luggage in obvious preparation to boarding (notice I said "_*can do*_," not "obligated").

I have been on a train where the brakes were applied shortly beyond the station, before the train was up to speed, and we reversed direction to back into the station. The word went out ( I can't remember if it was announced or not) that a passenger had been left. We picked them up, and were on our way. So I know this *can *happen! But it has to happen within a few seconds after the mistake is realized, or not at all.

Ultimately, it is the conductor's responsibility to make sure that the passenger who is supposed to board is either on the train, or not present on the platform at all, before giving the all-clear to proceed.


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## tonys96 (Nov 9, 2013)

If the book says a conductor is supposed to put his feet on the platform at every stop, and it seems in this case that did not happen, no amount of arm waving or hollering would have helped the OP's son.

Hollering and waving arms are good things to do if there is someone outside the train whose attention you could get.


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## Trainmans daughter (Nov 9, 2013)

Per the Service Standards Manual:

Conductor – En Route Responsibilities

The Conductor must:

a) Platform – Be on the platform at all station stops.

b) Employee Positions – Ensure that there are

employees protecting vestibules and positioned to assist boarding and detraining passengers.


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## leemell (Nov 9, 2013)

Garethe7 said:


> John said:
> 
> 
> > Tickets, voucher, I don't know, he did like a 15 day pass allowing 8 segments of travel. He has something printed that shows the 'reservations' and customer relations was concerned that he might have issues if he didn't pick up new 'tickets' with updated times and dates. He just texted a couple minutes ago...office was closed, guess the office person is the baggage handler and was unloading, go figure! Office re-opened he got his new 'tickets', back on the train headed to Portland! All is well!!
> ...


That would be AF PJ's, para-jumpers.


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## leemell (Nov 9, 2013)

John said:


> Think he turned into the 'Cookie Monster' up there
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10718928173/in/photostream/
> 
> Quick story behind all this....He's due to join the Air Force soon, oldest brother is a Marine on the west coast so he sees him often, next brother is in the Air Force in Maryland, Wanted to spend some time with his brother on the east coast...you know how families get separated. We were talking about my boyhood days hopping freights in Illinois and he asked about riding a train back from Maryland. I told him if he put up the money for the round trip flight, I'd pay the difference and he could ride the train across country. Don't know if an opportunity like that would ever be available again...service, jobs, life, etc. He chose the route, wanted to see the north, having grown up down here in the desert! Well he got to see it alright!


As an AF Vet from many years back, I can say he looks like a really good candidate. Congratulations.


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## leemell (Nov 9, 2013)

June the Coach Rider said:


> In my opinion, part of the problem is that there are no signs at stations for where particular classes of passengers should stand. Sleepers are usually up front and the coach cars are far away from the actual station. When people stand at the station, thinking that they will open a door close to them, that causes the issue. Especially for the unstaffed stations, there should be signs for where sleeper and coach passengers should stand to board.


Not always possible. Trains can be going in both directions which means a double set of signs. Sometimes they spot the trains differently to accommodate PV or other extra cars.


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## Blackwolf (Nov 9, 2013)

leemell said:


> June the Coach Rider said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, part of the problem is that there are no signs at stations for where particular classes of passengers should stand. Sleepers are usually up front and the coach cars are far away from the actual station. When people stand at the station, thinking that they will open a door close to them, that causes the issue. Especially for the unstaffed stations, there should be signs for where sleeper and coach passengers should stand to board.
> ...


Yes and no. There are stations using signage with regard to both Sleeper and Coach (Sacramento is one of them) and the two "classes" are segregated on the platform and/or given two separate ramps from the tunnel up to the platform.

That said, with unstaffed stops where property issues or weather don't allow platform occupation until a train is actually standing at the station are not an issue, the answer is simple. Pick a spot smack in the middle of the platform, then have a good quality light on a pole at this location. On the pole, mount signage that is very clear and large pointing to the location below the light that says "ALL TICKETED PASSENGERS _MUST _WAIT HERE FOR TRAIN." Now train OBS have a central location to look for boarding passengers, as anyone standing at that location can justifiably be assumed to be one. No more fuss, and no more reasons for Amtrak to have people literally left holding their bag as they watch the red marker lights fade into the distance on a missed train.

It would cost almost nothing to implement, especially in light of lost revenue and/or compensation to passengers these troubles effect.


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## benjibear (Nov 9, 2013)

To help with this problem, maybe Amtrak should install a simple sound system at unstaffed stations that flash a light and make a pre-recorded announcement that the train is approaching the station and direct all passengers to the platform. Repeat message for about 5 minutes before the train comes. When the train arrives, have a button that the conductor must get off the train, and with a key or code, the sound system announces the train has arrived and all aboard. At that time he should look up and down the platform to make sure everyone that wants on is on and then they could pull away.

I could see in cold areas someone waiting around a corner or behind something to protect them from the wind. This would alert them to get to the platform the train is about to arrive. If Amtrak is running even just 10 minutes late, nobody wants to stand on a platform in the cold (or heat) with no site of the train. You don't know if it is just a few minutes late, and hour late,, or hours late. With my proposal, the people would know when to expect the train.


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## oregon pioneer (Nov 9, 2013)

Ha, ha, once when I was in Switzerland (must have been the early 1980s), I wanted to take the little train up the valley from my hotel to go hiking. The train just went on by twice before I finally found the button that said "Zug Hält" (train stop). When I pushed the button, it made lots of lights flash as the train approached. Some of the lights were far enough down the line to alert the engineer to apply the brakes. The train stopped. I got to go hiking. Luckily, there was a train every half-hour, so I didn't waste the whole day!

If we are going to make a "wish list" for ways to alert conductors and pax that they are looking for each other, this obviously works (as long as there is adequate signage to let passengers know the button exists, ha, ha!). But I think the simplest solution is to make sure conductors follow the procedures that are already in place, and work if followed properly.


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## oldtimer (Nov 10, 2013)

Based on my 35+ years of experience with Amtrak I can tell you that the lights on the side on a Superliner have nothing to do with the doors being open or closed. The lights are activated be a pressure switch on the car's brake cylinder pressure line.


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## chakk (Nov 10, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> Yeah, I'm still putting 100% on the conductor for this one. The young man was on the platform, bag in hand, so there's absolutely no excuse. I've hung around at KAL watching the Wolverine before, and 99% of the time, the conductor asks if I'm joining them before shutting the door. The only time I haven't been asked is when I hang back and make it really obvious I'm not joining them (i.e. stand by the station and wave at the train).
> 
> Also, until this thread, I would have thought green lights by the doors meant they were opening too.


Those green lights on superliners are often visible at night out my roomette window as my CZ travels around curves. So I certainly hope that doesn't mean all of the doors to those cars are open.


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## Trogdor (Nov 11, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> However, when you say there were things the passenger could have done to prevent the problem, you are placing some of the blame on the passenger.


Whenever I walk across a street, I look both ways, and (to the extent possible) visually observe all nearby traffic approaching an intersection. I do this despite the walk signal telling me it's okay to go. Should some inattentive driver decide to come speeding through the intersection and run a red light without stopping, they will absolutely be 100% in the wrong. It doesn't make me any less injured (or any less dead) if I get hit.

Point is, it doesn't really matter who's right or who's wrong, or how much they're right or wrong. If there's a way someone can prevent something bad from happening (be it getting hit by a car, or being left on a platform), what's the harm in doing so?

I'd like to think that our goal should be to avoid having bad things happen, rather than being perfectly efficient at assigning blame after the fact.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 11, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > However, when you say there were things the passenger could have done to prevent the problem, you are placing some of the blame on the passenger.
> ...


Looking both ways before crossing a street. Yelling and waving to make sure train doors open at a scheduled stop. Yep. Pretty much the same.

My point is that looking both ways crossing a street is common sense. Not doing so puts the victim partially at fault, logically if not legally. Assuming a train will stop at a station and not open doors to let a passenger on board is not something anyone would assume would or could happen. Given the train left within one minute of stopping, at what point would you assume the doors are not opening? 10 seconds? 30 seconds? One minute - oops, to late. Train is leaving.

I had hoped this topic was over and done with.


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## Eris (Nov 11, 2013)

I agree that it's absolutely unexpected for the doors not to open and someone not to step out and note a waiting passenger, and Amtrak is completely at fault in this case. HOWEVER, it is clear from this and the other recent thread that _sometimes it happens_; as such, it's worth noting for others reading, for the future, that _sometime it happens_, and that it would behoove a lonely passenger waiting alone at an unmanned station to take note of the fact that _sometimes it happens_ and to have a plan for how to be SURE it does not happen to them. In this case, the lonely passenger was prepared for the weather and physically able to handle the surprise overnight, and that's great; if instead of an 18 year old man getting ready to head into military service the abandoned passenger was, say, a middle aged woman with asthma and no sleeping bag the ending to the story could have been much different. I think it's valuable to offer new sense (not, in this case, common) to people... be sure to make yourself known to the train when it arrives!

The lights argument is sort of a distraction, except inasmuch as it points out that a modern long-distance Amtrak train does not behave in the way a modern young person expects public transportation to behave. There is no automatic action, no motors that open the doors when the train stops in a station. You're not an idiot because you interpret what you see incorrectly, you're merely inexperienced or not yet educated about this specific thing (and really, I wouldn't expect that "green lights mean the brakes have been released" to be something most regular but not _avid_ train passengers know, or need to know!).


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## June the Coach Rider (Nov 11, 2013)

Having signage at the station noting where to stand for boarding sleepers or coach would help. Yes, there might need to be two sets of signs one for each direction of train, but most stations on the LD trains only have one or a few trains that stop. Having signage that reads for example "Train 7 - Empire Builder coach passenger boarding area, Train 8 - Empire Builder sleeper passenger boarding area" This way, conductors will have an area to look for passengers and the passengers that are expecting the doors by the station to open for coach will see the signs and hopefully be at the area closer to the open coach doors.


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## Carolyn Jane (Nov 11, 2013)

This appears to be a small station. Is there a platform? Or is there just a paved spot where the train is expected to stop? I which case, there should be no need for signage. In Jesup, there is one paved area to access the train. When there are sleeper passengers boarding/leaving, as well as coach passengers, the train does a double spot. Sleepers first when sleepers are on the front. then it whistles and pulls forward for coach passengers. EM


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## SarahZ (Nov 11, 2013)

chakk said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I'm still putting 100% on the conductor for this one. The young man was on the platform, bag in hand, so there's absolutely no excuse. I've hung around at KAL watching the Wolverine before, and 99% of the time, the conductor asks if I'm joining them before shutting the door. The only time I haven't been asked is when I hang back and make it really obvious I'm not joining them (i.e. stand by the station and wave at the train).
> ...


^_^


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## Trogdor (Nov 11, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> Looking both ways before crossing a street. Yelling and waving to make sure train doors open at a scheduled stop. Yep. Pretty much the same.


You clearly missed the point I was making, but, whatever.


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## Ryan (Nov 11, 2013)

FWIW, I got it and agree.

I'm surprised at how little we know and how confident folks are in their opinions of this incident.

It's quite possible that the conductor opened the door and put "feet on the platform" and somehow still managed to not pick this kid up.

Hell, they may have waved at each other for all we know, and the conductor assumed that since the kid just waved and stood there that he wasn't planning on boarding and that his expected passenger was a no-show.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 11, 2013)

Yes, I remember waking up in the middle of the night on the CZ in the desert and whenever we went around a cruve I could see the green lights along the train, they have a slight blue tint when you see them like that. The green lights mean the train is about to depart, not that the doors are about to open. I think red lights mean the train is stopped.

I do understand that a wave can be meant to let the train go. I remember when I was standing near a trolley stop in Philadelphia and the operator opened the front doors, I waved and he closed the doors, then departed. Just saying.


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## tonys96 (Nov 11, 2013)

RyanS said:


> FWIW, I got it and agree.
> 
> I'm surprised at how little we know and how confident folks are in their opinions of this incident.
> 
> ...


Quite true. All we know is the comments from the OP.

Who knows, the train *may* have stopped, and the entire crew of the train gotten out and jogged completely around the consist before reboarding and leaving.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 12, 2013)

RyanS said:


> FWIW, I got it and agree.
> 
> I'm surprised at how little we know and how confident folks are in their opinions of this incident.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised at how little effort it takes to flood a thread with so many imaginary theories that nobody knows what to believe anymore. Bravo.


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## zephyr17 (Nov 12, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yes, I remember waking up in the middle of the night on the CZ in the desert and whenever we went around a cruve I could see the green lights along the train, they have a slight blue tint when you see them like that. The green lights mean the train is about to depart, not that the doors are about to open. I think red lights mean the train is stopped.
> 
> I do understand that a wave can be meant to let the train go. I remember when I was standing near a trolley stop in Philadelphia and the operator opened the front doors, I waved and he closed the doors, then departed. Just saying.


Yellow on those lights by the Superliner doors mean the brakes on that car are set. Green means the brakes are released. There are no red lights. They are there to indicate the status of brake status of all the cars on the train to the operating crew, particularly the engineer. They have nothing at all to do with the doors.


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## buddy559 (Nov 12, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I remember waking up in the middle of the night on the CZ in the desert and whenever we went around a cruve I could see the green lights along the train, they have a slight blue tint when you see them like that. The green lights mean the train is about to depart, not that the doors are about to open. I think red lights mean the train is stopped.
> ...


Yet another reason to not take amtrak. Unable to communicate boarding procedures to a new passenger.


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## TraneMan (Nov 12, 2013)

Here is the yellow light when the train was at the station...


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## SarahZ (Nov 12, 2013)

buddy559 said:


> Yet another reason to not take amtrak. Unable to communicate boarding procedures to a new passenger.


Buddy, this situation was an exception, and don't let the lights discussion scare you. The conductors are supposed to get off at the station and help people board. You aren't expected to know the lights. As you can see by my post (and the resulting, multiple posts chiming in to correct my error), I'd never really noticed (or cared) about the lights until this thread, and I've been riding Amtrak since 2004 with absolutely zero problems boarding. Just look for the conductor and enjoy your trip.


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## Ryan (Nov 12, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW, I got it and agree.
> ...


You seem to have missed my point (or you have an awful funny way of agreeing with me).

Nobody here knows what happened on that platform, yet plenty of people are perfectly happy to say that nobody ever set foot off the train and that the conductor should 100% be fired for never even so much as opening a door.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 12, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> buddy559 said:
> 
> 
> > Yet another reason to not take amtrak. Unable to communicate boarding procedures to a new passenger.
> ...


Its true that all evidence points to this being a rare exception and that's an important distinction to make. Full stop. OTOH, Buddy does seem to have a (somewhat snarky) point in that there's little explanation from Amtrak about what is expected of waiting passengers. Or the benefits of waving your hands and shouting at anything that moves in the first sixty seconds of arrival in order to avoid being left behind overnight at an unstaffed station. If anyone had suggested doing that before I read this thread I would have thought that making a scene with erratic behavior immediately upon arrival would probably do more _prevent_ easy boarding than assisting it.

Its also true that the claim made is this thread has never happened to me or anyone I know. Full stop. I rarely board late trains at unstaffed stations in the middle of nowhere. If I should ever be left behind in such a place through no fault of my own I would be absolutely livid about it, but I might hesitate to mention it here. Unless I wanted to see folks from a heavily populated corridor take it upon themselves to fabricate all sorts of random counter arguments for what they _think_ happened in the middle of nowhere when nobody else was around.



RyanS said:


> Nobody here knows what happened on that platform, yet plenty of people are perfectly happy to say that nobody ever set foot off the train and that the conductor should 100% be fired for never even so much as opening a door.


It is absolutely true that nobody besides the participants has any special insight into what actually happened on that platform, including me. Theres nothing wrong with questioning the OP and casting doubt on the veracity of the claim itself.

I too was wondering why the complaint made it to AU before Amtrak and why the actual traveler didn't post it. In the end I was more or less satisfied with the explanations given. What bothers me is the intentional fabrication of alternative explanations as some sort of imaginary counterweight. If were really the experts on Amtrak then why would we need to employ a crutch like that?

Imagine how ludicrous it would be to see a fabricated counter argument levied against a post about how everything went fine. It would be mocked relentlessly, and for good reason. But when a serious accusation is levied against Amtrak it seems that merely imagining potential counterpoints becomes a fully accepted response.


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## tonys96 (Nov 12, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> buddy559 said:
> 
> 
> > Yet another reason to not take amtrak. Unable to communicate boarding procedures to a new passenger.
> ...


*THIS*


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## henryj (Nov 12, 2013)

I love how all the foamers on here are defending Amtrak and making it the passengers fault.


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## Ryan (Nov 12, 2013)

Where?

Please feel free to point out anyone saying it's the passenger's fault.


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## SarahZ (Nov 12, 2013)

I think this thread has served this purpose and deserves to die. This is getting ridiculous.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 12, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> I think this thread has served this purpose and deserves to die. This is getting ridiculous.


Then what are you doing in here?


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## SarahZ (Nov 12, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > I think this thread has served this purpose and deserves to die. This is getting ridiculous.
> ...


I was responding to Buddy's post about the lights because I didn't want him to be nervous.

I was simply suggesting the mods close the thread, like others that have been "resolved" in a week and then continue for another week or two simply so the same four people can argue and nitpick each other to death.

I had no "motivation". I'm not a mod. Also, I have every right to express the opinion that rehashing the same arguments for multiple pages is stupid. Every time someone new joins (and neglects to read the previous pages), the arguments start all over again.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 12, 2013)

I tried to take this to PM, but apparently you don't approve of that either, so here goes...

If you don't like what's being said in a given thread then maybe you should take responsibility for managing your own sensibilities and simply leave. If someone is breaking the rules then by all means report it to the moderators using the tools already provided to you. Broadcasting your desire to see a thread locked simply because you don't approve of the content is a bit overbearing, don't you think?


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## June the Coach Rider (Nov 12, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> I think this thread has served this purpose and deserves to die. This is getting ridiculous.


Not wanting to rock the boat, but this information can be very important for new passengers who have no idea how to proceed. If this thread keeps just one person from being left behind because they thought the lights were for doors rather than the brakes, then it has been worth it. When I see a thread that goes on and on, I just don't read it, no one forces anyone to click on the thread to read it.


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## SarahZ (Nov 12, 2013)

June the Coach Rider said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > I think this thread has served this purpose and deserves to die. This is getting ridiculous.
> ...


Closing the thread still leaves it accessible to searches and such, and I agree that the first two pages have some useful information. It just prevents it from popping up every time someone decides to beat the dead horse.

Also, I click on it because people have been addressing me directly in quotes, and I don't want to just ignore them and not respond.


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## pennyk (Nov 12, 2013)

I will lock the thread (at least temporarily) until someone with more authority reviews this.

As always, we should avoid personal attacks and attempt to be constructive. Thanks.


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