# The Canadian Consists



## The Davy Crockett

To help answer questions about line numbers on the Canadian, here are samples of a summer and winter consist.

########​Summer​#####​
VIA #2 Departure VAC 830pm 5/6/14:

6441
6457

Engine
8609 Baggage
8117 Coach
8130 Coach (Ex Amtrak)
8510 Skyline
8402 Alexandra - Dining Car 'B'
8507 Skyline (Activities Car 'B')
211- 8316 Christie Manor - sleeper
212- 8322 Drummond Manor - sleeper
213- 8302 Allan Manor - sleeper
1721 Panorama Car - (Off at Edmonton)
214- 8327 Fraser Manor - sleeper
215- 8337 Osler Manor - sleeper
216- 8333 Lorne Manor - sleeper
217- 8218 Chateau Marquette - sleeper
218- 8215 Chateau Lemoyne - sleeper
219 - 8225 Chateau Rouville - sleeper
8517 Skyline (Activities Car 'A')
8408 Empress - Dining Car 'A'
220 - 8305 Bayfield Manor - sleeper
221- 8318 Craig Manor - sleeper
222- 8314 Cameron Manor - sleeper
239 - 8707 Kokanee Park - Park Car

(With a very big *THANK YOU* to Paul T.)

#########​Winter​######​
VIA #2 Departure VAC 8:30pm 2/14/14

Engine

Engine

Baggage

Coach

Skyline

Diner

219- Manor Sleeper

220- Manor Sleeper

221- Manor Sleeper

222- Manor Sleeper

239 - Park Car

Note that the line number for the Park Car is always either 139 or 239 - depending whether it is on #1 or #2. The sleepers start at either 122 or 222 and work their way down in numerical order towards the front of the train. Sleepers and coaches are added to the consist if the demand is there. In terms of line numbers, sleepers are added in front of existing sleepers and get the next descending line number.

If anyone would like to contribute to these listings, PLEASE do!

__._,_.___


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## Swadian Hardcore

Woah, 8130? I thought the Canadian mainly used ex-CP coaches, not the various second-hand coaches, which run on things like the Skeena and the Hudson Bay. Most Skeena pics I've seen has shown a second-hand coach.

I just found out that 8130 is actually VERY old, it's a 1946 Budd!


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Woah, 8130? I thought the Canadian mainly used ex-CP coaches, not the various second-hand coaches, which run on things like the Skeena and the Hudson Bay. Most Skeena pics I've seen has shown a second-hand coach.
> 
> I just found out that 8130 is actually VERY old, it's a 1946 Budd!


Yes, originally Atlantic Coast Line 224……then Seaboard Coast Line 5413 and finally Amtrak 5413 before going to VIA. 

Coaches 8130 to 8147 were acquired from the US and rebuilt as part of the HEP-I program. Interior would be almost identical to the xCPR coaches. They were intended for use on the Ocean, Atlantic and Chaleur as they were converted from steam-heat in the early 1990s.

The other cars VIA got from the US were originally intended for corridor use and rebuilt under the HEP-2 program in the mid-90s . They can be distinguish by the yellow-blue band above the windows instead the sold blue band of the HEP-1s.

VIA also acquired Baggage-Mail cars from Union Pacific to convert to full baggage cars in the HEP-I program. They were much newer having been built by Budd in 1963…...and to this day, depending on the angle the sun hits the stainless-steel you can still read “US Mail – Railway Post Office” on the sides. (No.....the cars arn't usually that dirty.....I tinted the photo to bring out the lettering!)


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## Swadian Hardcore

Well, the Chaleur and Atlantic are dead, and the Ocean uses Rens now. I guess that's why they're showing up on the Skeena and Hudson Bay. I've seen vids of summer Canadians with three ex-CP coaches. They have bigger windows than the US-spec ones, I've noticed.


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## uest

The ex-CPR coaches do NOT have noticeably bigger windows than the ex-US HEP I cars. They are basically identical because the stainless steel panels of the latter were cut and new windows installed so that they would match. This is unlike the HEP II cars, where the windows heights were standardized but the window widths were left as originally built.

Other than the slightly more economical treatment of the windows in HEP II both rebuilding projects were very extensive, far more so than what Amtrak did with its heritage fleet.


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## Swadian Hardcore

uest said:


> The ex-CPR coaches do NOT have noticeably bigger windows than the ex-US HEP I cars. They are basically identical because the stainless steel panels of the latter were cut and new windows installed so that they would match. This is unlike the HEP II cars, where the windows heights were standardized but the window widths were left as originally built.
> 
> Other than the slightly more economical treatment of the windows in HEP II both rebuilding projects were very extensive, far more so than what Amtrak did with its heritage fleet.


I believe you are mistaken. Here's some photos:

VIA 8137 ex-NYC: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6037125039/

VIA 8118 ex-CP: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6037675428/in/photostream/

As you can see, #8118 has much larger windows than #8137. #8118 was used in the film "Silver Streak", back then was CP #118.


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## Green Maned Lion

As you can see, Swadian Hardcore needs glasses.


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## Bill Haithcoat

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Woah, 8130? I thought the Canadian mainly used ex-CP coaches, not the various second-hand coaches, which run on things like the Skeena and the Hudson Bay. Most Skeena pics I've seen has shown a second-hand coach.
> 
> I just found out that 8130 is actually VERY old, it's a 1946 Budd!


Actually not a lot of difference between 1946 and later .all part of the massive streamlining done atfer WW2 It is not as if hte railroads put out a nrw model each year


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## Swadian Hardcore

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Woah, 8130? I thought the Canadian mainly used ex-CP coaches, not the various second-hand coaches, which run on things like the Skeena and the Hudson Bay. Most Skeena pics I've seen has shown a second-hand coach.
> 
> I just found out that 8130 is actually VERY old, it's a 1946 Budd!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually not a lot of difference between 1946 and later .all part of the massive streamlining done atfer WW2 It is not as if hte railroads put out a nrw model each year
Click to expand...

Yeah, but 1946 is just older, older than the 1954 and 1955 cars. Makes it look good on the record. Weren't the bigger windows on the ex-CP cars available in 1946 as well? I know the Shasta Daylight cars had huge windows, but those were made by Pullman, not Budd.


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## chakk

The winter consist posted is right on, and exactly matches the one I had on an eastbound trip in February. One of the four Manor sleeping cars had ZERO passengers assigned to it. The joke among the other 39 passengers on the train was that it was being carried as a spare in case of heating failure in one of the other 3. Still, all of the shower drains in the Manor sleepers eventually froze up east of Jasper, and were thawed out by car knockers in Winnipeg.


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## Swadian Hardcore

chakk said:


> The winter consist posted is right on, and exactly matches the one I had on an eastbound trip in February. One of the four Manor sleeping cars had ZERO passengers assigned to it. The joke among the other 39 passengers on the train was that it was being carried as a spare in case of heating failure in one of the other 3. Still, all of the shower drains in the Manor sleepers eventually froze up east of Jasper, and were thawed out by car knockers in Winnipeg.


No surprise considering they're all bare stainless steel. Cool down those things and they all freeze up, even the vestibules too, I hear.


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## chakk

The floor drains in the Manor sleeper showers drain directly on to the tracks, so in bitter cold weather (as we experienced outdoors) the dripping water freezes into icicles which eventually plug the entire drain. I did get to use the shower before and after the 24 hours of plugdom, and never noticed any cold feeling on the floor or in the shower room. But there certainly was a lot of snow being blown up into the vestibules -- especially the last one leading into the Park car. (dome observation lounge car on the end of the train).. For much of the run, you couldn't see out the back windows, nor forward through the dome windows, for all of the snow being kicked up by the 60 mph-plus track speeds.

Still, a fantastic trip, which should be on every railfans bucket list.


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## Swadian Hardcore

They did install retention toilets on the Budds, right?


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## zephyr17

Swadian Hardcore said:


> They did install retention toilets on the Budds, right?


Yes, that was done when they did the big rebuild in the early 1990s when they HEPed the ex-CP fleet. Same time they took out one section in the Manors and Chateaus and replaced it with the shower. BTW, the showers on Amtrak Superliners also drain directly out on the tracks.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> No surprise considering they're all bare stainless steel. Cool down those things and they all freeze up, even the vestibules too, I hear.


 Bare Stainless-Steel but well insulated.

It’s only on a rare occasion you will find drains/plumbing etc freezing on the Budd equipment. The drain piping is heat-traced (heating-coil). On my Canadian trip last December we encountered -20C temps all across the prairies and everything worked just fine…..but I’ve been on a Canadian (and an Ocean and an Atlantic) after they started using the rebuilt all electric Budd HEPed cars when an occasional drain or pipe would freeze.

The vestibules between cars are another story…..and it’s almost impossible to keep the fine powdery snow out that gets kicked-up at speed. The Renaissance cars now used on the Ocean have a different type of diaphragm between cars and they are completely sealed allowing one to walk the train, end to end without going into an open vestibule.

Prior to the Budd equipment being HEPed in the late ‘80s, the cars were heated by steam, piped through the cars from boilers located in the diesels and were more susceptible to freeze-ups then, from the steam condensate.











And Amtrak cars too…..here’s Amtrak’s Detroit to New York train at St. Thomas, Ontario in 1977.


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## Anderson

In that second pic, it looks like VIA is using some of the refitted heavyweights, not actual streamlined cars.


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## NS VIA Fan

Anderson said:


> In that second pic, it looks like VIA is using some of the refitted heavyweights, not actual streamlined cars.


No....they are smooth-side streamlined cars.....not heavyweight.....and the same age as the xCPR Budd Stainless-Steel fleet that VIA now uses. CP re-equipped their trains with cars from Budd and CN purchased their fleet from CC&F and Pullman Standard in 1954-55. CN had very few stainless-steel cars.


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## Swadian Hardcore

NS VIA Fan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> In that second pic, it looks like VIA is using some of the refitted heavyweights, not actual streamlined cars.
> 
> 
> 
> No....they are smooth-side streamlined cars.....not heavyweight.....and the same age as the xCPR Budd Stainless-Steel fleet that VIA now uses. CP re-equipped their trains with cars from Budd and CN purchased their fleet from CC&F and Pullman Standard in 1954-55. CN had very few stainless-steel cars.
Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken, the cars in the second VIA pic are CC&F cars.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the cars in the second VIA pic are CC&F cars.


This is VIA #53 the 'Lakeshore' at Brockville ON Jan 22/83.

Consist is:

6530 GMD FP9A

6627 GMD F9B

9664 Baggage xCN built by National Steel Car 1958

5534 Coach xCN built by Canadian Car & Foundries 1954

3037 Cafe-Coach x CN built by Canadian Car & Foundries 1954

Train is waiting for #43 the 'Capital' from Ottawa. The CN RS18 visible at the far right will pull a Coach, Snack-Coach and Club (Parlour Car) from #43 and place them on the rear of #53 before it continues onto Toronto.


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## Swadian Hardcore

NS VIA Fan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, the cars in the second VIA pic are CC&F cars.
> 
> 
> 
> This is VIA #53 the 'Lakeshore' at Brockville ON Jan 22/83.
> 
> Consist is:
> 
> 6530 GMD FP9A
> 
> 6627 GMD F9B
> 
> 9664 Baggage xCN built by National Steel Car 1958
> 
> 5534 Coach xCN built by Canadian Car & Foundries 1954
> 
> 3037 Cafe-Coach x CN built by Canadian Car & Foundries 1954
> 
> Train is waiting for #43 the 'Capital' from Ottawa. The CN RS18 visible at the far right will pull a Coach, Snack-Coach and Club (Parlour Car) from #43 and place them on the rear of #53 before it continues onto Toronto.
Click to expand...

National Steel Car? Don't VIA still have one of those running in Northern Manitoba? That branch line from The Pas to _something_ that begins with "Put.........."?

That's a weird consist, a FP9 with a FPB booster? And _three _different car types?


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> National Steel Car? Don't VIA still have one of those running in Northern Manitoba? That branch line from The Pas to _something_ that begins with "Put.........."?
> 
> That's a weird consist, a FP9 with a FPB booster? And _three _different car types?


That's Pukatawagan.....a Cree First Nation community in northern Manitoba and yes there's still a NSC Baggage Car in service on the mixed train between The Pas and Puk.

>>>>>>

I don't understand what you mean by a 'weird' consist. It was not unusual to see a FP9A + F9B. They were built to operate together.....and especially in winter for the extra capacity from the steam-generator boilers.

The 'Lakeshore' was a local on the Kingston Subdivision. The baggage car, coach and café provided service to local passengers between Montreal and Brockville and then it picked up an additional coach, snack-coach and Club Car from #43 the 'Capital' before continuing onto Toronto.

Thru passengers between Montreal and Toronto would use the faster Rapidos leaving Montreal about an hour before the Lakeshore or another Rapido about two hours afterwards.


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## NS VIA Fan

And if you think the above is weird…….here’s eastbound #54 Lakeshore at Brockville on Jan 22/83 

(also combined with #2 Canadian and #44 Capital)

6760 MLW FPA4 (Toronto-Montreal)

6868 MLW FPB4 (Toronto-Montreal)

607 Budd SS Baggage (Vancouver-Montreal)

Club Laurier (Pullman Standard) Toronto-Ottawa

3215 CCF Snack Coach (Toronto-Ottawa)

5487 CCF Coach (Toronto-Ottawa)

5603 CCF Coach (Toronto-Montreal)

5529 CCF Coach (Toronto-Montreal)

111 Budd SS Coach (Vancouver-Montreal)

512 Budd SS Skyline Dome (Vancouver-Montreal)

Chateau LaSalle Budd SS Sleeper (Vancouver-Montreal)

Banff Park Budd SS Dome Obs (Vancouver-Montreal)


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## The Davy Crockett

NS VIA Fan said:


> It’s only on a rare occasion you will find drains/plumbing etc freezing on the Budd equipment. The drain piping is heat-traced (heating-coil). On my Canadian trip last December we encountered -20C temps all across the prairies and everything worked just fine…..but I’ve been on a Canadian (and an Ocean and an Atlantic) after they started using the rebuilt all electric Budd HEPed cars when an occasional drain or pipe would freeze.


Each sleeper has one shower, and two of the four showers on my February trip froze, but it was no big deal to walk to the next car and shower, as even then there are the same number of beds per shower (22 beds per car) in two Manor Sleepers as there are in one Superliner Sleeper (44 beds per car) - if you don't consider the toiletshowers in the Superliner bedrooms. 
Additionally, there are the 'shower kits' VIA gives you each day which contain two bath towels, two washcloths, a really nice travel sized Pharmacopia lemon verbena shampoo and a travel sized bar of Pharmacopia lemon verbena soap (which don't stink to high heaven like the stuff that one once-upon-a-time got on Amtrak.) that all come nicely ready for use in a drawstring plastic bag that every railfan will want to keep as a souvenir.

One also needs to remember that it was unusually cold - even for Canada - this winter. Folks from Winnipeg are very proud of the fact that at one point this winter it was colder in Winnipeg than on the surface of Mars! 



> The vestibules between cars are another story…..and it’s almost impossible to keep the fine powdery snow out that gets kicked-up at speed.


Which leads to some pretty slick conditions and is one reason VIA puts handrails up in the vestibules and does not alolow pax to stand in the vestibules. Every vestibule (and almost every switch from VAC to TWO) has its own broom and shovel.


> The Renaissance cars now used on the Ocean have a different type of diaphragm between cars and they are completely sealed allowing one to walk the train, end to end without going into an open vestibule.


One of the very few truly good features of the Ren cars, IMHO.


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## NS VIA Fan

The Davy Crockett said:


> One also needs to remember that it was unusually cold - even for Canada - this winter. Folks from Winnipeg are very proud of the fact that at one point this winter it was colder in Winnipeg than on the surface of Mars!


Thats why they call it 'Winterpeg'......but when it warms up.....it warms up fast: it's 29 degs in Winnipeg today (84F)....Here in the Maritimes our winters are nowhere near as cold but today it's still only 12 degs (or 54)



The Davy Crockett said:


> The Renaissance cars now used on the Ocean have a different type of diaphragm between cars and they are completely sealed allowing one to walk the train, end to end without going into an open vestibule.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the very few truly good features of the Ren cars, IMHO.
Click to expand...

It will probably never happen but that's why I would love to see a block of Ren Sleepers on the Canadian. After the rattle and vibrate in my Budd Sleeper on the Canadian last winter....I longed for a smooth riding Ren along with its en-suite shower in the deluxe bedroom.


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## The Davy Crockett

NS VIA Fan said:


> ...it's 29 degs in Winnipeg today (84F)...Here in the Maritimes... ...it's still only 12 degs (or 54)


I like the Maritimes, but if we were to settle in Canada I think we would go for the 'tropics' of either BC's 'Sunshine' Coast, southern Vancouver Island, or the greater VAC area.



> It will probably never happen but that's why I would love to see a block of Ren Sleepers on the Canadian. After the rattle and vibrate in my Budd Sleeper on the Canadian last winter....I longed for a smooth riding Ren along with its en-suite shower in the deluxe bedroom.


I guess it comes down to 'to each their own.' I'd prefer a berth in a Budd to a 'den' in a Ren.


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## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> Prior to the Budd equipment being HEPed in the late ‘80s, the cars were heated by steam, piped through the cars from boilers located in the diesels and were more susceptible to freeze-ups then, from the steam condensate.


How well I remember those "bad-old-day's"......sometimes the SFZ would come into Denver mid-winter with almost all the car's frozen. The carmen would heroically do what they could to restore them, but oftentimes the car's would go out of service, and even entire trains annulled with the passenger's being flown or bussed to their destinations.

Similar problems with A/C in the summers....the individual car units were old and very unreliable....both the axle and engine type generator's prone to failure. Train attendant's carried a supply of cyalume lightsticks 

It all came to a head during that notorious winter in the early to midwinter seventies (forgot exact year -- 1976?), when the Chicago hub was in a world of hurt...sending trains down to New Orleans to thaw out. The new HEP Amfleet was pressed into service that it was not intended for--long distance trains....they performed heroically and probably "saved Amtrak" from extinction that year.


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## williamn

How much longer can they keep these ancient cars running? When they are life expired will that be the end of The Canadian?


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## Green Maned Lion

Stainless steel cars are generally speaking worn by use, not time. With the way VIA uses those cars, their end of life will be after the end of ours.


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## Swadian Hardcore

VIA Rail will probably rebuild them again when they have the money. Not going away anytime soon.


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## Green Maned Lion

Why would they rebuild them? They are in excellent shape!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Didn't NS VIA Fan say that they are in bad shape and needed a rebuild?


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Didn't NS VIA Fan say that they are in bad shape and needed a rebuild?


Think I said some of the Budd cars I've been on vibrate and rattle compared to the smooth riding Renaissance equipment.
And it would be great if more of the cars received the modern interiors some of the Chateau and Park Cars are getting now for the up-scale service VIA is launching. More cars should also receive Barrier Free Accessibility (ADA to Americans). The rebuilt Park Cars now have a built-in wheel-chair lift in a vestibule.


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## Swadian Hardcore

I think they should keep the old interior but add wheelchair lifts. Then probably rebuild the undercarriage to get rid of the vibrate and rattle. I don't think it's the carbody itself ratting because, IIRC, the Budd cars were built with 1940s military-grade shotwelding and monocoque through-truss construction.

Do you know if all the Park Cars are going to be used for Prestige Class on the Canadian or if some will stay for the Skeena and Ocean?


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## Green Maned Lion

The vibrating is most likely the interior fittings (like door tracks, for instance) wearing out slightly. But that's minor maintenance issues. The cars are mechanically and structurally Budd cars with less than a million miles on them not too far out of rebuild.


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## railiner

Took a ride on a half-century old, Budd-built R-32 on the MTA Subway 'C' Train last week. I can see no reason why those couldn't easily last a full century, with minimal maintenance along the way....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Took a ride on a half-century old, Budd-built R-32 on the MTA Subway 'C' Train last week. I can see no reason why those couldn't easily last a full century, with minimal maintenance along the way....


When are those going to go? I would like to ride some with my travel buddy before they're all replaced by R179's. Are they still on the A or the J?


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## railiner

They are currently on the 'C', and I believe they will be there for a couple more years, at least....the last cars with a "railfan window", except for a handful of R-42's on the 'J',

so better hurry.....

The 'A' is R-46's, and the 'J' is mostly R-160's......


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## Swadian Hardcore

Are they really the last cars with the RFW? None of the newer ones have them?

I must say, I quite like the R46. Not as much as the R32, though. Heard the R42 was [email protected]


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Are they really the last cars with the RFW? None of the newer ones have them?
> 
> I must say, I quite like the R46. Not as much as the R32, though. Heard the R42 was [email protected]


All the newer cars have the full-width cab. You can get a very limited (and distorted) view by peering thru the slot into the cab, and then on thru the outer door window.

Yes, compared to the R-32, the R-42 is junk.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Does the R62 have a RFW? I've seen some vids of them that appeared to be taken from the very front.


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## railiner

R62's have full width cab's.


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