# Where should one change planes? London or New York? or somewhere else?



## MARC Rider (Aug 15, 2021)

Let's say I wanted to go from Baltimore to Paris. Unfortunately, the only transatlantic nonstop flight we have from BWI is to London Heathrow. That means I'd either have to take a puddle jumper to New York (either Newark or JFK) and then a nonstop to Paris, or I could fly from BWI to Heathrow and change to a London-Paris flight. (Forget for the moment that I could also take the Amtrak to Newark or Philadelphia, drive to Dulles or Philadelphia, or take the Eurostar (plus a long Underground ride) from London to Paris.)

Which option would be better?

The last time I connected to an international flight at JFK, I had to collect my checked baggage and take a long bus ride to the connecting airline's terminal. (OK, it was EL Al, which explains why I couldn't check the baggage through, but I still had the long shuttle bus ride.) I'm not sure how international flights board and arrive at Newark, is there a separate international terminal? And if I land at Heathrow do I have to ride all over the airport to get my connecting flight? Do I have to pass through any kind of customs and immigration check even if I'm just transiting through?

How do customs and immigration compare at JFK, Newark and BWI? If my experience at Dulles a couple of years ago is any guide, they've automated the process a good bit, but I imagine that different airports might have rolled out the equipment at different times, and some airports might be run more efficiently than others. 

In my experience, all the flights between BWI and New York are in small regional planes. Are the British Airways flights between Heathrow and Paris full size airliners?

Anyway, this is just for curiosity's sake, as I don't think I'll be doing any transatlantic trips any time soon.


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## me_little_me (Aug 15, 2021)

The more countries you land at, the more hassles you could potentially run into. I'd go to NYC and fly direct to Paris. Nothing worse than a ling international flight and then have to take another plane. Better, IMHO, to make the long overnight flight last. Besides, if you did consider the Eurostar, you'll be so tired by then, you won't enjoy it.

As to getting to NYC, I'd go with the train because it will be more relaxing and you won't have to have already fought your way through the airport hassles before you take the short flight and potentially again before then again before taking the long one. At least that would be my choice. After all, those overnights east are still late in the day giving you plenty of time, right?


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## WWW (Aug 15, 2021)

I will just throw another option in this mix - ICELANDIC Airlines * * * * *
While you are going to make a change of planes anyway somewhere
Why not make it as convenient as possible ! 

USA - Iceland - UK or Europe final destination 

Also hub cities in the USA - think of other hub cities in Europe other
than London or Paris i.e. AMSTERDAM & Copenhagen - Madrid - Frankfurt

USA missing Boston and oddly enough Chicago and Minneapolis/St. Paul Atlanta ?

Customs and Immigration is controlled at each airline terminal or at the airport
of arrival with gates shared by all airlines.


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## PVD (Aug 15, 2021)

Service from BwI to jFK and EWR has really gone down in terms of availability. might as well take train to NYC area, with newark being a bit easier connection, or think about Dulles which I believe has nonstops to Paris.


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## caravanman (Aug 15, 2021)

When I used to fly from America to London after my visits, I often found flights departing in the mornings, which avoided that overnight flight. (I can't sleep on planes). Maybe something similar is available direct from NYC to Paris?


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## PVD (Aug 15, 2021)

I don't see one from JFK or EWR right now


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## saxman (Aug 15, 2021)

Right now, there are no flights from BWI to any NYC airport. It appears AA will start one flight a day to JFK and Delta will start some flights in 2022. Nothing appears to be going to EWR any time soon. So if BWI is the best option for you, I'd probably connect in LHR on BA. I've heard some stories about connecting through LHR and that they can have strict and long security lines when making a connection. But Heathrow's Terminal 5 is pretty nice. You shouldn't have to clear any customs there. If transportation to Dulles or Philly is feasible for you, I'd also look at taking the non-stops from those two airports as well.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 15, 2021)

I just checked on Travelocity. It looks like BWI-Paris through flights are either American, change at DFW, or Delta, change in Detroit or Atlanta, or United, change at O'Hare in Chicago. And the round-trip fares are $3,000 - $5,000 for Economy, too.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 15, 2021)

It also looks like British Airways is no longer flying to BWI, so I suppose my best bet would be a direct flight from Philly or Dulles, both of which are a 2-hour drive. Or I could take Amtrak to 30th st. and SEPTA to the airport.


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## Exvalley (Aug 15, 2021)

Definitely avoid immigration at Heathrow if possible.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 16, 2021)

Most international hubs have an abridged transit inspection instead of the full customs and immigration process we insist on here in the US, including London's Heathrow. Be aware that UK staff consider pastes to be liquids, toys and tools to be weapons, and banknotes to be evidence of criminal enterprise. Do not be surprised by odd questions and excessive delays. There is also a chance that Brexup could unravel or a new pandemic variant could flare up and cause more problems. Best of luck to anyone who needs to travel internationally right now because it does not look easy or fun to me.









Everything you need to know about transiting through European airports during the pandemic - The Points Guy


If you have travel planned that takes you via a European airport, check out this guide for everything you need to know.




thepointsguy.com


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## caravanman (Aug 16, 2021)

There has been a lot in the news about huge queues at Heathrow in the recent past. In these covid times, I think the fewer borders one needs to negotiate to arrive at your destination, the better?
My guess is that as restrictions are eased, more flight options will once again appear. I would be in America tomorrow if I was allowed to enter.
As the OP mentions, it's just an academic query at this time...


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## caravanman (Aug 16, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I just checked on Travelocity. It looks like BWI-Paris through flights are either American, change at DFW, or Delta, change in Detroit or Atlanta, or United, change at O'Hare in Chicago. And the round-trip fares are $3,000 - $5,000 for Economy, too.



I just looked on Air France, and they have "promo" prices for September. NYC to Paris direct. A return in economy is $732 at the most restrictive fare.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 16, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Let's say I wanted to go from Baltimore to Paris. Unfortunately, the only transatlantic nonstop flight we have from BWI is to London Heathrow. That means I'd either have to take a puddle jumper to New York (either Newark or JFK) and then a nonstop to Paris, or I could fly from BWI to Heathrow and change to a London-Paris flight.
> 
> Which option would be better?



It all depends on what you think is "better".

If you're trying to cut down on immigration/COVID headaches and you absolutely must fly from BWI, fly Delta/KLM/Air France and connect in ATL/DTW to a direct Paris flight. Your bags will be checked all the way through. If your final destination is somewhere other than the UK, avoid Heathrow at all costs, even if your transfer is within the otherwise very nice T5.

If you're trying to stay with a OneWorld airline, I'd recommend the same thing. Fly direct to Paris from the US no matter where you have to transfer in the US to get there.

France is much more open and kind to tourists in the COVID era than the UK.


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## caravanman (Aug 16, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> France is much more open and kind to tourists in the COVID era than the UK.


Why do you say that? My understanding is that fully vaccinated US visitors are welcome in the UK without any quarantine period required?


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## jiml (Aug 16, 2021)

The thing to avoid with BA is their significant add-on costs, some of which are well-hidden until time of purchase. They even charge for seat selection in Business Class - something almost no other carrier does.

Have you considered going south by train to Dulles, then on UA or Air France to CDG non-stop? I believe Manassas is the closest Amtrak stop, then taxi/Uber north to the airport. There may also be local transit options I'm not familiar with out of Washington.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 16, 2021)

caravanman said:


> Why do you say that? My understanding is that fully vaccinated US visitors are welcome in the UK without any quarantine period required?



The folks at CDG don't even ask my colleagues for vaccination cards, presumably because they uploaded it to the airline website when checking in for the flight. They don't even ask for it at the airline counter. Aside from a routine temperature screening, nothing much about the immigration process appears to have changed at CDG except the walk got shorter.

Everyone I know of who has entered or transited through the UK has had to provide proof of vaccination along with going through a separate screening process that seems to change every other week.

Yes both places are open, but France from what I have heard is "more open"


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## Nick Farr (Aug 16, 2021)

jiml said:


> Have you considered going south by train to Dulles, then on UA or Air France to CDG non-stop?



The easiest thing to do from BWI to Dulles is to take any train into DCUS and take Metrorail to
Wiehle-Reston East, from which there is a very short shuttle to Dulles.

However, that's the same transit time as flying from BWI to ATL and in that case you don't have to deal with your bags or worry about Amtrak/MARC/Metro delays.


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## neroden (Aug 19, 2021)

I haven't flown for over 10 years, but my outdated rating of airports for changing planes was:

Worst of all -- LaGuardia. Horrific.
Second worst -- JFK. Especially if you have to change terminals.
Third worst -- Newark.

So frankly I'd pick any route which avoided the NYC airports. They were all unpleasant, disorganized, and prone to delays. Leaving out of Philly, Boston, or DC was fine by contrast.

London Heathrow was a model of good organization, careful management, and nice conditions by contrast, better than anything in the US, and a pleasure to change airplanes in. Security is real (not like our security theater here) though. But they *escorted* us between planes when we had a short connection! It was slick.

However, it is also true that if you're transiting the UK to go to a third country, it can be a paperwork complication, especially now.

It's also an inescapable truth that the foreign flag carriers are all nicer than any of the US airlines. A lot nicer.

So starting from Baltimore, and heading for Paris, my conclusion is: take Air France direct from Washington Dulles.

Silver Line Metro to Dulles will be open by the time you're travelling. So that's Amtrak/MARC, Red Line, Silver Line.


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## Ryan (Aug 19, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> The easiest thing to do from BWI to Dulles is to take any train into DCUS WAS and take Metrorail to
> Wiehle-Reston East, from which there is a very short shuttle to Dulles.


This four-legged journey can be called many things. "Easy" is not one of them. Significantly easier to just drive over there.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 19, 2021)

Ryan said:


> This four-legged journey can be called many things. "Easy" is not one of them. Significantly easier to just drive over there.



Driving over there, assuming you're parking your car at DC Union Station, would cost more than flying.

Given the parkway and navigating DC there, it's probably not necessarily easier unless you really, really prefer driving.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 19, 2021)

neroden said:


> I haven't flown for over 10 years, but my outdated rating of airports for changing planes was:
> 
> Worst of all -- LaGuardia. Horrific.
> Second worst -- JFK. Especially if you have to change terminals.
> Third worst -- Newark.



LGA has actually gotten a lot better and is a lot nicer than it was, even just before COVID. However, there are no flights to Europe from LGA.

It's actually very rare that you'd ever have to change terminals at JFK flying on the same airline.

Newark we can agree on.



neroden said:


> London Heathrow was a model of good organization, careful management, and nice conditions by contrast, better than anything in the US, and a pleasure to change airplanes in. Security is real (not like our security theater here) though. But they *escorted* us between planes when we had a short connection! It was slick.



This is not the typical Heathrow experience, especially not during COVID. Yes, transiting through T5 is quite nice under non-COVID conditions, but it's consistently one of the worst airports otherwise.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 19, 2021)

neroden said:


> It's also an inescapable truth that the foreign flag carriers are all nicer than any of the US airlines. A lot nicer.



Says someone who has probably never flown Aeroflot, Air China, Air Koryo or Copa

I would also say that Delta international beats all but a dozen or so exceptional flag farriers as far as "niceness" in general. KLM can get pretty surly. If you want to know what awful service on Air France is, say the warm bread is not very good.


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## Exvalley (Aug 19, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Says someone who has probably never flown Aeroflot, Air China, Air Koryo or Copa


I would ad Alitalia as well. I flew to Rome in a seat that was literally held together with duct tape. The in flight entertainment was broken as well. If I recall correctly, the plane had been acquired from a low cost carrier that went bankrupt - and it showed.

The biggest problem with Heathrow is that, with only two runways that are used to their fullest capacity, things can get insanely ugly if weather or other factors cause delays. However, the New York airports aren't a whole lot better (I'm especially looking at you, LGA).


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## Nick Farr (Aug 19, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I would ad Alitalia as well.



Yes, especially after they became a state-owned airline.



Exvalley said:


> The biggest problem with Heathrow is that, with only two runways that are used to their fullest capacity, things can get insanely ugly if weather or other factors cause delays.



Heathrow is also just a poorly managed international airport. It's been universally dreaded by international travelers except elites on OneWorld.


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## Ryan (Aug 19, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Driving over there, assuming you're parking your car at DC Union Station, would cost more than flying.
> 
> Given the parkway and navigating DC there, it's probably not necessarily easier unless you really, really prefer driving.


Why would you park your car at WAS if you're flying out of IAD? That would still be a miserable four legged journey (car/MARC, red line, silver line, bus).

Since it wasn't clear, I was saying that driving to IAD would be the easy and obvious solution.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 19, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Why would you park your car at WAS if you're flying out of IAD? That would still be a miserable four legged journey (car/MARC, red line, silver line, bus).
> 
> Since it wasn't clear, I was saying that driving to IAD would be the easy and obvious solution.



Parking at IAD isn't much better and you have to pay for the Dulles toll road. Also, it's a really awful drive from Baltimore even when traffic isn't horrible. 

At least BWI has more budget options and, theoretically, they could take a relatively inexpensive Uber there.

It's still personal preference. Door to door, BWI>ATL/JFK>CDG is still about the same time and less money as driving from Baltimore to IAD and flying direct to CDG--and you have many more departure time options with a US connection.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 19, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Driving over there, assuming you're parking your car at DC Union Station, would cost more than flying.
> 
> Given the parkway and navigating DC there, it's probably not necessarily easier unless you really, really prefer driving.


If I drive to Dulles from Baltimore, I take I-70 west to Frederick, then US 15 south to Leesburg and then get on the Greenway (a toll highway with a $5-6 toll that uses EZpass) to Dulles. It takes about 2 hours. If I drove the more direct route (I-95 to 495 to Dulles Access Road), it might take a half hour less if there were no traffic, but there's always traffic. The commercial strip on US 15 around Leesburg gives me an opportunity for a pit stop.

I don't know whether there are any direct buses/shuttles that connect Baltimore with Dulles, and I have no idea what a taxi/Uber costs. Taxis from my house to BWI airport are now running about $70. At 60 cent per mile operating costs for my car, the 90 mile drive would cost me $54 each way, plus parking costs.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 19, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I don't know whether there are any direct buses/shuttles that connect Baltimore with Dulles



COVID likely wiped them out. 

All in all it comes down to whether or not you prefer driving for two hours or a layover.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 19, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> All in all it comes down to whether or not you prefer driving for two hours or a layover.


Some of the flights connecting via the stopovers in Detroit or Atlanta have a total travel time of 15 hours, as opposed to an 8-9 hour nonstop. I think I'd prefer the drive.


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## Exvalley (Aug 19, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Some of the flights connecting via the stopovers in Detroit or Atlanta have a total travel time of 15 hours, as opposed to an 8-9 hour nonstop. I think I'd prefer the drive.


I live about 3 hours from the nearest major airport - and about 2 hours from the nearest airport with commercial service. A long drive after coming back from Europe is not fun - at least for me.


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## jis (Aug 19, 2021)

The closest commercial airport to me is 15 mins drive and the largest (in Florida now) commercial airport is 60 minutes away with lots of non stops to many places. I have never used the closest airport since it is served only by commuter airlines that require one to change flights in Atlanta or RDU no matter where you are going )other than Atlanta and RDU of course.

But then again, the drive to the big airport takes usually less than an hour from my garage at home to the relatively inexpensive off airport parking lot. On airport takes 5 mins more and costs twice as much. I use on airport for short trips and off airport for medium trips and car service/Uber for months long trips.


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## Exvalley (Aug 19, 2021)

The other issue for me is that most of my multi-hour drive from the airport is mostly rural. After 9:00 PM or so, it is extremely common to not see a single other car on the highway at any given moment in time. It's harder for me to stay awake when it's just me, an empty road, and the darkness. I drove through New York City twice this past week, including one time fairly late at night. I was surprised at how less tired I felt since I didn't have the luxury of letting my mind wander thanks to the traffic.


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## Cal (Aug 19, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> The other issue for me is that most of my multi-hour drive from the airport is mostly rural. After 9:00 PM or so, it is extremely common to not see a single other car on the highway at any given moment in time. It's harder for me to stay awake when it's just me, an empty road, and the darkness. I drove through New York City twice this past week, including one time fairly late at night. I was surprised at how less tired I felt since I didn't have the luxury of letting my mind wander thanks to the traffic.


I don't have that problem here, nearest commercial airport (SNA) is 25-30 minutes away with frequent flights across the country. LAX is also an hour drive according to Google with traffic. There's also Ontario but options are better at SNA and LAX.


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## Ryan (Aug 19, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Parking at IAD isn't much better and you have to pay for the Dulles toll road. Also, it's a really awful drive from Baltimore even when traffic isn't horrible.
> 
> At least BWI has more budget options and, theoretically, they could take a relatively inexpensive Uber there.
> 
> It's still personal preference. Door to door, BWI>ATL/JFK>CDG is still about the same time and less money as driving from Baltimore to IAD and flying direct to CDG--and you have many more departure time options with a US connection.




Hi! I'm Ryan! I live just a shade under 10 miles from BWI, and have driven to IAD to catch flights on numerous occasions. Usually it takes me about an hour. Hell, I've showed up at BWI for a flight, been told by the agent checking my bag that my outgoing flight was delayed and I was a guaranteed misconnect at EWR, driven to IAD (during rush hour, in the rain, even!), parked and caught a flight to my destination in order to make an early meeting the next morning.

I'm not sure where you lived before Michigan, or what experience you have driving between the two airports, but I'm going to feel like I'm on pretty safe ground when I say that I know what I'm talking about better than you do here. There is absolutely zero chance that I would ever drive to WAS so that I could take the metro+bus combo to IAD. If parking was absolutely not an option, I would drive the 2 miles to Odenton and take the MARC to start that particular journey, so comparing WAS to IAD parking is completely without a point. Depending on the circumstance I would (again, since this is a thing I've done), drive to a hotel near IAD, sleep there to get up early and catch the hotel shuttle to the airport where I board my early morning flight. You can get some cheap parking deals at the local hotels if you combine it with an overnight stay. Would I fly from BWI somewhere to catch an international flight with a domestic layover first? Perhaps. It would all boil down to timing, availability, and price. The drive to one airport over the other is completely a non-factor in the decision.

Also, spoiler alert: You don't have to pay for the Dulles Toll Road if you're catching a flight - the center lanes go directly to the terminal and are free. The outboard lanes are the only one to charge, people that use the road for other purposes pay the toll. Speaking strictly hypothetically (of course) one is also able to take the free lanes, drive through the driveway at the terminal, and then exit the airport to a local destination without paying the toll. I've definitely not done that. No, never!


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## Cal (Aug 19, 2021)

Ryan said:


> I've definitely not done that. No, never!


I definitely believe you 100%.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 19, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Hi! I'm Ryan! I live just a shade under 10 miles from BWI, and have driven to IAD to catch flights on numerous occasions. Usually it takes me about an hour. Hell, I've showed up at BWI for a flight, been told by the agent checking my bag that my outgoing flight was delayed and I was a guaranteed misconnect at EWR, driven to IAD (during rush hour, in the rain, even!), parked and caught a flight to my destination in order to make an early meeting the next morning.
> 
> I'm not sure where you lived before Michigan, or what experience you have driving between the two airports, but I'm going to feel like I'm on pretty safe ground when I say that I know what I'm talking about better than you do here. There is absolutely zero chance that I would ever drive to WAS so that I could take the metro+bus combo to IAD. If parking was absolutely not an option, I would drive the 2 miles to Odenton and take the MARC to start that particular journey, so comparing WAS to IAD parking is completely without a point. Depending on the circumstance I would (again, since this is a thing I've done), drive to a hotel near IAD, sleep there to get up early and catch the hotel shuttle to the airport where I board my early morning flight. You can get some cheap parking deals at the local hotels if you combine it with an overnight stay. Would I fly from BWI somewhere to catch an international flight with a domestic layover first? Perhaps. It would all boil down to timing, availability, and price. The drive to one airport over the other is completely a non-factor in the decision.
> 
> Also, spoiler alert: You don't have to pay for the Dulles Toll Road if you're catching a flight - the center lanes go directly to the terminal and are free. The outboard lanes are the only one to charge, people that use the road for other purposes pay the toll. Speaking strictly hypothetically (of course) one is also able to take the free lanes, drive through the driveway at the terminal, and then exit the airport to a local destination without paying the toll. I've definitely not done that. No, never!


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## MARC Rider (Aug 19, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Also, spoiler alert: You don't have to pay for the Dulles Toll Road if you're catching a flight - the center lanes go directly to the terminal and are free. The outboard lanes are the only one to charge, people that use the road for other purposes pay the toll. Speaking strictly hypothetically (of course) one is also able to take the free lanes, drive through the driveway at the terminal, and then exit the airport to a local destination without paying the toll. I've definitely not done that. No, never!



So you can still do that? I will admit that I did it, but so long ago, that I think the statute of limitations applies.  Anyway, the extra driving wasn't worth the savings of a very moderate toll. That was before they had EZPass, though, so the hassle of the toll was more than the money.


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## neroden (Aug 20, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Says someone who has probably never flown Aeroflot, Air China, Air Koryo or Copa


I much preferred Aeroflot and Air China to any of the US carriers. Better service. That was in the 1980s and 1990s, though.


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## neroden (Aug 20, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I would ad Alitalia as well. I flew to Rome in a seat that was literally held together with duct tape. The in flight entertainment was broken as well. If I recall correctly, the plane had been acquired from a low cost carrier that went bankrupt - and it showed.
> 
> The biggest problem with Heathrow is that, with only two runways that are used to their fullest capacity, things can get insanely ugly if weather or other factors cause delays. However, the New York airports aren't a whole lot better (I'm especially looking at you, LGA).


New York is consistently worse than London in this regard. London airports have *procedures* for delays. New York airports are just "**** you, not our problem".

I was once on a plane which waited in line so long to take off that it had to get out of line to refuel. That was New York. JFK. Departed over 10 hours late, after boarding on time.


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## Ryan (Aug 20, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> So you can still do that? I will admit that I did it, but so long ago, that I think the statute of limitations applies.  Anyway, the extra driving wasn't worth the savings of a very moderate toll. That was before they had EZPass, though, so the hassle of the toll was more than the money.


If I were to have ever done that, it would have been many years ago when I was dumber and poorer.  

I had a summer job out that way, and keeping a container full of quarters in the car was a pain. You're right that EZPass has made life much less of a hassle.


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## Ziv (Aug 20, 2021)

I hear you about the superiority of most of the upper tier foreign flagged airlines. I have only gotten to fly on foreign flagged airlines occasionally, like the time I took Swiss Air from Wash DC to Athens, and not surprisingly, the service was outstanding! But I think the best service I ever encountered was when I took an EVA Air passenger/freighter combi 747 from BKK to Tokyo. There were only about 100 seats and my window seat was so far forward I could actually see part of the way down the runway as we were taking off. I think I was either 2A or 3A and the perspective was completely different from a typical airliner. And the stewardesses were phenomenal, as was the food! 
I have been really lucky with United, which is usually not known for its outstanding customer service. My usual flights are from Washington's IAD to Bangkok via Narita (usually ANA), IAD to Billings MT and IAD to Saint Thomas. I have had to stay over in Denver due to late/delayed flights but it has been a rarity. And the people that I have worked with have nearly all been decent sorts. Crossing my fingers that I haven't jinxed myself...
It is unfortunate that US flagged airlines do tend to be a bit more of a cattle car than most of the better foreign flagged airlines. On the positive side, I haven't had a bad meal on United since Covid hit. Of course, none of my recent flights actually served a meal, so there may be a correlation there.... LOL!



neroden said:


> ...
> 
> It's also an inescapable truth that the foreign flag carriers are all nicer than any of the US airlines. A lot nicer.
> 
> ...


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 20, 2021)

Cal said:


> I definitely believe you 100%.


Sucker!


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## Nick Farr (Aug 20, 2021)

neroden said:


> New York is consistently worse than London in this regard. London airports have *procedures* for delays. New York airports are just "**** you, not our problem".



Once ATC modernized maybe 5-6 years ago, this stopped being as much of a problem.

Also, the procedures in London have to do with EU law. Airline passengers have more rights on the EU. I'm not certain how Brexit changes that..



neroden said:


> I was once on a plane which waited in line so long to take off that it had to get out of line to refuel. That was New York. JFK. Departed over 10 hours late, after boarding on time.



What year was that?


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## Nick Farr (Aug 20, 2021)

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure where you lived before Michigan, or what experience you have driving between the two airports, but I'm going to feel like I'm on pretty safe ground when I say that I know what I'm talking about better than you do here.



Columbia Heights, Foggy Bottom, Silver Springs and Pasadena.

I've flown at least 200k FF Miles out of BWI, DCA and IAD combined.

Just because you'd never do a thing doesn't mean it isn't a practical option for others. I will give you that if you live there your knowledge of the group situation is probably better than mine.

That being said, I've never had less than a two hour drive from north of Ft. Meade to IAD. I've also never done that drive before 8 PM. Maybe it's gotten a lot better since I last lived there in 2015, maybe you love to drive, maybe you drive like you're from CT.

Admittedly, I'd usually just have a friend drive or take a cab. When I lived in Maryland, I left my car at BWI or Greenbelt and taken MARC/Metro when I had to fly out of IAD. I've just not had good luck parking at IAD any of the times I've done that.

Also, once I got status on Delta with the lounge access, I pretty much just flew out of BWI unless Uncle Sam had me on United.

I do have an amusing story of one time I was on Air France out of IAD and checked a 100kg package.


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## neroden (Aug 20, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> What year was that?



Hmmm, it must have been the early 1990s. We were connecting to an Aeroflot flight to Russia, not the USSR but Russia, so that makes it post-1991...


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## Nick Farr (Aug 20, 2021)

neroden said:


> Hmmm, it must have been the early 1990s. We were connecting to an Aeroflot flight to Russia, not the USSR but Russia, so that makes it post-1991...



If you were on Aeroflot metal, I'm not at all surprised. Search "Kennedy Steve" and Aeroflot for some interesting ATC conversations.


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## neroden (Aug 20, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> If you were on Aeroflot metal, I'm not at all surprised. Search "Kennedy Steve" and Aeroflot for some interesting ATC conversations.


Nah, the JFK-Heathrow leg was BA. Aeroflot was Heathrow-Sheremetyevo.

There was a weather problem in the airspace over NY, and resulting massive flight congestion. And they really didn't do much of anything to manage the passengers. By contrast, when we got to Heathrow, we'd been marked as "tight connection" passengers and were promptly escorted.


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## jis (Aug 20, 2021)

neroden said:


> Nah, the JFK-Heathrow leg was BA. Aeroflot was Heathrow-Sheremetyevo.
> 
> There was a weather problem in the airspace over NY, and resulting massive flight congestion. And they really didn't do much of anything to manage the passengers. By contrast, when we got to Heathrow, we'd been marked as "tight connection" passengers and were promptly escorted.


I think there is a distinct difference in how things are handled in a world where the ruling philosophy is not "every individual for himself and the rest be damned" and "we are all sort of in it together and ought to help each other". 

In my recollection, even though it was possibly in deeper issues at times, United states used to be much better until the dawn of the '80s.


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## v v (Aug 20, 2021)

caravanman said:


> Why do you say that? My understanding is that fully vaccinated US visitors are welcome in the UK without any quarantine period required?



Ed, Nick Farr is correct, double the documentation into the UK from France compared to from the UK to France. This is fact, have just done this 3 times.

US direct to France is best, any borders are not exactly difficult but full of bureaucracy and testing regimes. Fewer borders the better for me until Covid is far behind us.


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## v v (Aug 20, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Everyone I know of who has entered or transited through the UK has had to provide proof of vaccination along with going through a separate screening process that seems to change every other week.
> 
> Yes both places are open, but France from what I have heard is "more open"



Agree completely


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## Ryan (Aug 20, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Columbia Heights, Foggy Bottom, Silver Spring*s* and Pasadena.


Ah, I figured that you had some local knowledge at some point. Since you lived in the 'dena, it'll be of value to you that I live in Odenton - easy shot to BWI or the MARC station, and a quick jaunt on 32 over to 95 and beyond to that other airport. Probably explains some of the differences in our experiences. We settled here to give my then-girlfriend-now-wife access to all of the local job markets (that worked out, as she's worked in Baltimore, Annapolis, Columbia, and DC in the 16 years we've been here).

I'm not from CT (lifelong Marylander, save for a stint in Blacksburg and Norfolk), but I probably drive in the way that you describe.


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## lstone19 (Aug 21, 2021)

neroden said:


> There was a weather problem in the airspace over NY, and resulting massive flight congestion. And they really didn't do much of anything to manage the passengers. By contrast, when we got to Heathrow, we'd been marked as "tight connection" passengers and were promptly escorted.



Another place where tight connections get prioritized is Schipol (Amsterdam). A few years back, we were connecting from a flight from the U.S. to another Schengen (European combined immigration area) destination. As such, we needed to clear Immigration (passport check) but not Customs (baggage) or security. Connection was scheduled at 55 minutes which seems insanely short. At Immigration, our flight was posted on the "departing soon" priority list. Through Immigration with no delay, had time to hit an ATM for Euros, and at the gate before boarding even started.


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