# Rail Runner to visit El Paso



## abqdave (May 4, 2009)

New Mexico Rail Runner is visiting El Paso May 7 and Las Cruces May 9 http://nmrailrunner.com/news_las_cruces_visit.asp

BNSF says extending service from Belen to El Paso would require 200 miles of new track as freight route currently limited to 55 mph. Cost could be $125 million from Las Cruces to El Paso alone http://www.kvia.com/global/story.asp?s=10191288 and up to $735 million from El Paso to Belen http://www.abqjournal.com/abqnews/abqnewse...to-el-paso.html

This is the first time I have seen any information this solid about projected cost and hint at the current condition of that track. Maybe I am riding the city bus too much lately and my perspective on speed has changed, but does 55 mph on the current track seem that bad?


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## AlanB (May 5, 2009)

abqdave said:


> This is the first time I have seen any information this solid about projected cost and hint at the current condition of that track. Maybe I am riding the city bus too much lately and my perspective on speed has changed, but does 55 mph on the current track seem that bad?


When one is trying to compete with the overall travel times of cars on a freeway, yes, 55 is a problem. Even with 79 MPH running, after factoring in station stops and slow zones for curves that can't be easily eliminated, it's hard to keep an average speed of 60 MPH. And most highways in NM have either 65 MPH or 70 MPH speed limits.


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## birdy (May 5, 2009)

On the other hand, a mere $125 mil to upgrade 200 miles of track is peanuts. I say, crank it up to 100 mph for an extra few mil. The Texans can kick in a few mil for the project, right?

In the meantime, I'd sure like to see Las Vegas NM to Santa Fe, upgraded. It would be a huge kick in the pants for the region.

Did you see the article in the paper last Sunday? Discussion about the economic effect of the train. Gross receipts tax in Santa Fe actually increased last month. How many cities can say that? Also discussion of the unexpected effects of the Railrunner. It turns out that the train is a boon to abused women. They make their way to the station plop down their $7 and disappear into one of several shelters conveniently located along the line. Kids are using the train to commute to charter schools and other specialized education opportunities that weren't available otherwise. Lots of network effects to these things.


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## MrFSS (May 5, 2009)

About how many station stops would there be between Albuquerque and El Paso. Are there that many cities that would need service? I haven't looked at a map, but isn't that pretty desolate country?


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## Sam31452 (May 5, 2009)

Another effect of the Railrunner: I'm visiting both Santa Fe and Albuquerque and stay for 3 instead of 2 days.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 5, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> About how many station stops would there be between Albuquerque and El Paso. Are there that many cities that would need service? I haven't looked at a map, but isn't that pretty desolate country?


If I tell Google Maps I want driving directions along that route, it shows me about a dozen intermediate city/town names along I-25 between Belen and El Paso, when displaying the entire Albuquerque to El Paso route. If I zoom in, more place names show up

I suspect a mix of local and express trains might be appropriate. And only running the express trains in the first version of the system might be appropriate.

On the other hand, another option might be to grow the line south one stop at a time, perhaps starting with an extension to Socorro.


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## abqdave (May 5, 2009)

Here is a really good map of railroads (current and historical) in NM.

http://nmshtd.state.nm.us/upload/images/Ma...l_map_dV9_3.pdf

South of Belen, I would guess any Rail Runner extension would stop in Socorro (home of NM Tech, only sizeable town between Belen and Las Cruces, has a pretty good Art Deco era main strip), maybe a seasonal stop in San Antonio (the entrance to see the Sandhill Crane migrations at the Bosque del Apache, although it is also home to the 2 best green chile cheeseburg restaurants in the world - Owl Cafe and Buckhorns (you should not go through life without having tasted Buckhorns burger)), then Las Cruces. Unfortunately the line goes to the east of Elephant Butte reservoir and misses Truth or Consequences, a town with hot springs and artists galleries. Maybe if it has to be rebuilt anyway, move this section?

As a sidenote or oddity or future point of pride, I am not sure which, the future Spaceport America is not too far from the tracks either.


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## George Harris (May 5, 2009)

abqdave said:


> New Mexico Rail Runner is visiting El Paso May 7 and Las Cruces May 9 http://nmrailrunner.com/news_las_cruces_visit.asp
> BNSF says extending service from Belen to El Paso would require 200 miles of new track as freight route currently limited to 55 mph. Cost could be $125 million from Las Cruces to El Paso alone http://www.kvia.com/global/story.asp?s=10191288 and up to $735 million from El Paso to Belen http://www.abqjournal.com/abqnews/abqnewse...to-el-paso.html


I have no idea how any of these numbers or speeds, either for that matter, were derived, but most look like they were invented on the spot, if not invented by the reporters.

To start with the simplest: The speed limit for freight trains between Belen and El Paso is 49 mph, which is as fast as is permissible by the FRA on a line without signals. A passenger train would be permitted to run 59 mph by the same rules. 55 mph is a number without source or logic.

The state of New Mexico *bought* the line being used by the Railrunner for $300 million. Most of that money went for the portion used in the first part of the system, with the part north of Lamy being thrown in for what is likely little more than net scrap value.

El Paso to Las Cruces is 42.6 miles according to the BNSR ETT. The state of Tennessee upgraded 32 miles of 25 mph track, included a near 50% rail relay and added signals for something like $35 million. It is highly unlikely that the El Paso line is in near as poor shape as the ex-Tennessee Central trackage, but even so, $50 million should do it. Of course, Tennessee bought used Chicago area cars and used engines at really low prices, but none the less, they got the system up and running for peanuts as this stuff normally goes.

$735 million between El Paso and Belen? We are talking 220 miles of open country railroad here, and spending %3.3 million per mile on it? For what? Half that should be enough, even with adding signals, unless they are gold-plating it.

Something seems seriously wrong with this picture.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 5, 2009)

abqdave said:


> Unfortunately the line goes to the east of Elephant Butte reservoir and misses Truth or Consequences, a town with hot springs and artists galleries. Maybe if it has to be rebuilt anyway, move this section?


Is there a reason related to terrain why the railroads originally choose the route they did?


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## George Harris (May 6, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> abqdave said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately the line goes to the east of Elephant Butte reservoir and misses Truth or Consequences, a town with hot springs and artists galleries. Maybe if it has to be rebuilt anyway, move this section?
> ...


Yes. It is in general following the Rio Grande River valley. Why it did not go through TorC I have no idea, and the people to ask are long gone from the land of the living. I have a feeling the town may not have been there when the railroad was bulit, or the approaches were too subject to flooding, just guesses. Engle, on the railroad, is 16.4 miles and 31 minutes of driving from TorC according to Mapquest.


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## birdy (May 6, 2009)

I agree the numbers seem inflated. I was told at the open house last fall that crossing the BNSF mainline was a major undertaking for going south. But still....

I think the town of Socorro is quite interested in the service. Las Vegas (to the North towards Denver) doesn't seem to have awakened to the possibilities, but it would be just a huge boon to the area. Lots of good cheap housing stock, just far enough away from Santa Fe to be an inconvenient car commute, but an easy train commute. An absolute sweet spot.

Of course, the most obvious thing would be to offer service on Sundays at least during the tourist season. a 9 a.m. Sunday train would be packed as it would offer a very convenient connection to the airport and much of the Sunday air schedule out of

Albuquerque, and serve a fair number of day trippers to Albuquerque as well.

By the way, the ridership is 120K per month, and steadily increasing, with no more free days.


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## gswager (May 6, 2009)

The ride to Lamy is quite fast. Once it gets past Lamy, toward Las Vegas, the tracks are located in the mountains which is slow. Driving on I-25 is a lot quicker than that section of track, so it may not be feasible for commuter trains.

Las Vegas is a "sleepy" town which is fine for tourists. It fills with a lot of history, including architecture of buildings. Major businesses are NM Highland University and state mental hospital.

I agree about Socorro. In fact, there is one round-trip bus shuttle between Belen and Socorro if I remember correctly.


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## abqdave (May 6, 2009)

Comparing ABQ/Santa Fe with El Paso/Las Cruces is interesting.

ABQ - 520,000 El Paso - 607,000

Santa Fe - 72,000 Las Cruces - 90,000

If population is a predictor of usage, Rail Runner 2 between El Paso and Las Cruces would have even higher ridership than ABQ - Santa Fe. Maybe this should be done in steps...this would be the next expansion, rather than trying to do El Paso - ABQ all at once.

I assume the feds would provide some funding for the project, and I am sure New Mexico would provide funds. Voters in New Mexico have generally been supportive of taxes/bonds for both transit and development. I am not sure how much money Texas gives to it's commuter rail projects or whether people there would support this.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 6, 2009)

abqdave said:


> Comparing ABQ/Santa Fe with El Paso/Las Cruces is interesting.ABQ - 520,000 El Paso - 607,000
> 
> Santa Fe - 72,000 Las Cruces - 90,000
> 
> If population is a predictor of usage, Rail Runner 2 between El Paso and Las Cruces would have even higher ridership than ABQ - Santa Fe.


But there's also the travel time question. I think ABQ to Santa Fe is about 80 minues. That's roughly in the ballpark of what many people are willing to accept for a daily commute. ABQ to El Paso is about 266 miles. A top speed of 220 MPH may not even be good enough to get the ABQ to El Paso travel time similar to the ABQ to Santa Fe travel time.

It's probably doable with a new 300 MPH alignment, but we're probably a long way away from wanting to spend money on a new HSR alignment for that particular route. And it's worth asking if 300 MPH is a fast enough target; if you want to ever be able to cover Santa Fe to El Paso in an hour, it should probably be constructed with the idea that the trains will someday run even faster than 300 MPH.


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## birdy (May 7, 2009)

Well, if you want to do true HSR from Duke city, run it to Phoenix, about 320 miles as the crow (or TGV) flies. Its certainly not my first choice for HSR, but it would work. For one thing, the 'zonies would take it to the White Mountains in Eastern Arizona which are very much like the Adirondacks. This is the most depressing time of the year for your typical Arizonan. Its about 102 degrees with no clouds in the sky, no prospect of rain and no wind even, and its going to be like that only hotter, every single day until about mid-October when it drops back down to 90. yecch. Believe me. About June 15th,those people will pay anything to get out of town.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 7, 2009)

abqdave said:


> Unfortunately the line goes to the east of Elephant Butte reservoir and misses Truth or Consequences, a town with hot springs and artists galleries. Maybe if it has to be rebuilt anyway, move this section?


I'm wondering if the I-25 alignment would be a reasonable rail alignment from Socorro to Truth or Consequences. If anything, I'm getting the impression that it may have gentler curves than the railroad alignment, though I don't know whether the highway grades are within the acceptable range for passenger trains. There is a curve in I-25 at San Antonio that might require express trains not stopping there to slow down (though the land needed to put in a more gently curved high speed bypass track may be undeveloped), and then it looks like a rail alignment might be able to mostly follow I-25 except for perhaps using gentler curves until about 5-7 miles north of downtown Truth or Consequences at Monticello Point Road. However, as you continue south from there, I-25 does not look terribly appealing as a potetial rail alignment.

For that matter, from roughly Bernardo to Socorro, the I-25 alignment looks straighter than the railroad alignment.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 7, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> About how many station stops would there be between Albuquerque and El Paso. Are there that many cities that would need service? I haven't looked at a map, but isn't that pretty desolate country?


Something else to consider is that ABQ to El Paso is about the same distance as DC to Bridgeport. While an express train wouldn't need to make many stops, the NEC from DC to Bridgeport has the MARC Penn Line, a commuter rail gap, the SEPTA NEC lines, the NJT line to Trenton, track that Amtrak doesn't share with any commuter railroad, and then the Metro North New Haven Line. I see no reason why an ABQ to El Paso line shouldn't have the potential to end up with just as many commuter stops as all of these commuter railroads have along the NEC, though indeed there is the question of whether there are populated areas to justify all those stops in New Mexico.


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## gswager (May 7, 2009)

How many miles are between Las Cruces and El Paso?


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## abqdave (May 7, 2009)

Sorry to change the subject for a minute...

Rail Runner just announced they are running a Sunday train Memorial Day weekend http://nmrailrunner.com/news_memorial_day_weekend.asp

And, some psycho jerk shot the train twice last night http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S920199.shtml?cat=500


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## George Harris (May 7, 2009)

abqdave said:


> And, some psycho jerk shot the train twice last night http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S920199.shtml?cat=500


If you look at a window in rail passenger car you will see something to the effect of FRA Part 223 Glazing. there is a certain level of bullet proof requirement in that standard. I do not consider it a good idea to say how much, since why should I tell someone how big a gun they need to give it a chance of pentration of the window. Let's jsut say for most circumstances of deliberate or accidental shooting, the bullet is unlikely to penetrate the window or car side.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 8, 2009)

Why would you shoot at a passing train?? :unsure:


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## AlanB (May 8, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Why would you shoot at a passing train?? :unsure:


Why do kids throw snowballs at passing cars?


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## DET63 (May 8, 2009)

gswager said:


> How many miles are between Las Cruces and El Paso?


About 45.


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## George Harris (May 8, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you shoot at a passing train?? :unsure:
> ...


Exactly!

It used to be at one time that you could consider people of destructive bent to be sufficiently ignorant that you did not need to worry too much about what was said or about them doing things that required true planning and intelligence. There have been two major events, one recent and one not so recent to make us realize that this generality is not universal. They are:

1. The ****s

2. The 9/11 events and some subsequent.

These tell us that political or religious obsessions that lead to the concept that certain classes of people, up to all others, are not worthy of contiued living can trump rationality.


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## JayPea (May 8, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you shoot at a passing train?? :unsure:
> ...



Or why do kids throw rocks at Amtrak coach windows? I was on a short run on the CONO from Chicago-Champaign several years ago when this happened.


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## jackal (May 9, 2009)

AlanB said:


> abqdave said:
> 
> 
> > This is the first time I have seen any information this solid about projected cost and hint at the current condition of that track. Maybe I am riding the city bus too much lately and my perspective on speed has changed, but does 55 mph on the current track seem that bad?
> ...


I-40 is mostly (completely?) 75mph. IIRC, I-25 is, too.

Just sayin'...


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## DET63 (May 10, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Why would you shoot at a passing train?? :unsure:


I think it's called "being a jerk."


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