# Next Gen TGV Duplex



## frequentflyer (Jul 30, 2018)

http://railcolornews.com/2018/07/26/fr-this-is-the-avelia-horizon-the-next-generation-very-high-speed-train-for-sncf/

Yes, its looks very similar to Acela 2s.


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## jis (Jul 30, 2018)

It is bilevel though, unlike the Acela 2s


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## seat38a (Jul 30, 2018)

Well it has the same name as the Acela 2, Avelia.


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## frequentflyer (Jul 30, 2018)

Same power cars. Amtrak is getting a legit TGV clone.


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## jis (Jul 31, 2018)

Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)


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## cirdan (Jul 31, 2018)

jis said:


> Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)


Any idea why this was not done for the original Acela.


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## jis (Jul 31, 2018)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)
> ...


The RFP for that apparently specified 85' cars I think. That eliminated any wiggle room for the bidders to specify more appropriate technology/train architecture, and certainly eliminated anything like the TGV. It also did not require that anything that has ever worked anywhere be the basis for the response. So it became an exercise in the creation of a random collection of backward looking innovations slapped together, with constant modification requests from Amtrak. The result was almost predictable. Fortunately at least they did not revert back to gunslit windows, which by then had become contrary to fire regulations too I think.






In contrast, this time the RFP contained a set of performance requirements and asked the vendors to propose something to meet those requirements. Vendor proposals were then accepted with minimal change requests at least upto that point. I don;t know if things have gotten messed up since then.


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## PerRock (Jul 31, 2018)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. There was never a doubt that Avelia Liberty is a TGV clone, and the real evidence is the use of articulating Jacobs bogies (trucks)
> ...


Because the Acela Is were made by Bombardier, and all the TGVs are made by Alstom. The Acela Is are an evolution of the Bombardier LRCs.

peter


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## jis (Jul 31, 2018)

PerRock said:


> cirdan said:
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> > jis said:
> ...


The power heads for Acela are essentially an Alstom product though.
BTW, another new gen TGV derivative:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/italo-ntv-orders-more-high-speed-trainsets.html


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## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 1, 2018)

jis said:


> PerRock said:
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> > cirdan said:
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But will they run on time?


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## Andrew (Aug 16, 2018)

frequentflyer said:


> Same power cars. Amtrak is getting a legit TGV clone.


What are the transit specifications (locomotive and passenger car length and height) of the new Amtrak Acela 2 Train-sets?


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## VentureForth (Aug 23, 2018)

Interestingly, Japan's Tokaido Shinkansen line ran with 2 of it's 16 cars with double deckers for a while. Then, on the Joetsu, they were running "Max" - a full length duplex unit. But I think all are gone now. Sometimes these trains get REALLY crowded. Wonder why they don't have a modern duplex solution.


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## jis (Aug 23, 2018)

When the Tokaido Shinkansen had double deckers, weren't those the Green Cars?


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## MattW (Aug 23, 2018)

With Japan's ingenuity, I'm actually surprised they haven't introduced a full two-level Shinkansen with two-level platforms negating the need for a lot of internal stairways (would still have to exist, just not as many).


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## cpotisch (Aug 23, 2018)

MattW said:


> With Japan's ingenuity, I'm actually surprised they haven't introduced a full two-level Shinkansen with two-level platforms negating the need for a lot of internal stairways (would still have to exist, just not as many).


How would they do two level platforms?


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## slasher-fun (Aug 25, 2018)

MattW said:


> With Japan's ingenuity, I'm actually surprised they haven't introduced a full two-level Shinkansen with two-level platforms negating the need for a lot of internal stairways (would still have to exist, just not as many).


More doors = less seats.


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## VentureForth (Aug 26, 2018)

jis said:


> When the Tokaido Shinkansen had double deckers, weren't those the Green Cars?


I think that's how I remember it. I rode in a green car on the 100 series (the only variant on the Tokaido). There were only 2 double deckers out of 16 cars, and I was on the upper of one. I don't recall the configuration of the other three levels. The downstairs may have had Green compartments. Wow. It's been 30 years since I did that.
I thought I remembered a restaurant car, but thought by the late 80s they were all gone. Wiki has pictures of them, though. They had panoramic windows similar to Superliner lounges. Don't remember those.


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## VentureForth (Aug 27, 2018)

MattW said:


> With Japan's ingenuity, I'm actually surprised they haven't introduced a full two-level Shinkansen with two-level platforms negating the need for a lot of internal stairways (would still have to exist, just not as many).


Like I mentioned, they seem to be shying away from duplex units. Almost all double deck Shinkansen are gone. I'm gonna check the MAX, but I think it's days are numbered if not already extinct.
After looking into it, there are two services out of Tokyo that use all-duplex trainsets. One is 12 cars and the other is 10 cars. Both have a max speed of 240 kph, which is really slow compared to other Shinkansen lines.


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## cpotisch (Aug 27, 2018)

VentureForth said:


> There were only 2 double deckers out of 16 cars, and I was on the upper of one. I don't recall the configuration of the other three levels. The downstairs may have had Green compartments. Wow. It's been 30 years since I did that.


How did those two double deckers not result in an incredible amount of drag? They're taller than the single levels, right?


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## jis (Aug 27, 2018)

Same reason that an Airbus 380 does not have an incredible amount of drag


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 27, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > There were only 2 double deckers out of 16 cars, and I was on the upper of one. I don't recall the configuration of the other three levels. The downstairs may have had Green compartments. Wow. It's been 30 years since I did that.
> ...


In order for a double decker train to be viable from drag coefficient standpoint it only needs to compare favorably with _two_ single deck trains.


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## VentureForth (Aug 27, 2018)

It's all about the front end. Yes, there is more frontal area. On an airplane, the fuselage has an element of lift by acting sort of as an airflow. This cancels out a little bit of drag. Otherwise, nothing can't overcome drag with plenty of power.

These do the same.

Worth noting that the E1 and E4 both have max speeds of 240 kph, regardless of 12, 10 or 6 cars.

Back to the TGV, I'm fascinated that these have top speeds of 270 and 320 kph. Having power cars vs every car powered lengthens the train, offsetting capacity. But apparently the big difference here is the 6.72 MW vs 9.28 MW power output. In these two cases, though, the E4 Shinkansen carries 817 passengers vs 508 on the TGV.

It's all trades. Power, speed, passenger count, train configuration. Whatever meets the business case.

FWIW, the top speed Sanyo Shinkansen (the extension of the Tokaido) is the N700 at 300 kph. For a single level, 16-car-powered train, it's power output is 17.08 MW! But it also carries 1,323 people. So, 2.6x the capacity of the TGV, with only 1.84x the power.


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## cpotisch (Aug 27, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> cpotisch said:
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> > VentureForth said:
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Yes, but a full double decker train is likely going to have be more aerodynamically efficient than a single deck train with a couple bi-level cars, because there's significant drag where the bi-levels extend above the other cars. It's like how the Caltrans Siemens Chargers have a smooth spoiler at the back since they pull bi-levels a couple feet taller than itelf.


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