# Finally!....New VIA Equipment



## NS VIA Fan

Announced in yesterday's (Feb 27) Federal Budget

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/fleet-renewal


----------



## Eric S

NS VIA Fan said:


> Announced in yesterday's (Feb 27) Federal Budget
> 
> http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/fleet-renewal


32 trainsets with 9100 total seats. (Any idea how that compares to what is used currently?)

Good news, indeed. Will be interesting to see the proposals and which company/equipment is selected.


----------



## Trogdor

I wonder if the Siemens Charger has any shot of winning this order for locomotives, given that it has had relatively abysmal performance in the midwest this past winter.


----------



## jis

Looks like five or six car train sets. Seems almost ideal for a Railjet/Charger based Siemens thing (similar to Brightline sets) or equivalent from Bombardier or Alstom (which will be merged with Siemens rail transport stuff).


----------



## Eric S

Trogdor said:


> I wonder if the Siemens Charger has any shot of winning this order for locomotives, given that it has had relatively abysmal performance in the midwest this past winter.


So that's not just been my bad luck with two of the worst Hiawatha delays/disruptions in my 20+ years of riding those trains occurring this winter.


----------



## Lonestar648

It is great news. Cold weather reliable operations will be something that the bidding companies should be required to demonstrate. Just the approval for new equipment is a great step forward for Canada.


----------



## jis

Eric S said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the Siemens Charger has any shot of winning this order for locomotives, given that it has had relatively abysmal performance in the midwest this past winter.
> 
> 
> 
> So that's not just been my bad luck with two of the worst Hiawatha delays/disruptions in my 20+ years of riding those trains occurring this winter.
Click to expand...

Although the train I was on traveled fine with SC-44s, I did see another train with a BNSF unit ahead of the SC-44 because apparently the horn on the SC-44 had failed thus making it illegal as a lead unit.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Trogdor said:


> I wonder if the Siemens Charger has any shot of winning this order for locomotives, given that it has had relatively abysmal performance in the midwest this past winter.


That's first I'm hearing about a lot of problems with the Chargers. What's been happening with them?


----------



## PerRock

There was some issues with the scrubbers, although I think the problems with them were blown a bit out of proportion by Charger-haters. They don't yet have the Michigan PTC system installed/turned on. Been a few accidents (no fault to the Chargers), and a horn not working on one run of one. That's all I can remember off the top of my head, no where near as bad as the HHP-8s when they were delivered.

I've not heard of any problems with the Brightline ones, nor the ones on the west coast.

peter


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Were there still plans to electrify the corridor too?


----------



## seat38a

I'm assuming its these cars that are being replaced? Not the LRC?





by B H, on Flickr


----------



## NS VIA Fan

seat38a said:


> I'm assuming its these cars that are being replaced? Not the LRC?


Yes....hopefully the cars with the blue and yellow stripe will be the ones replaced. These were rebuilt in the early 90 in the HEP II programme. A lot are former Amtrak cars.....the interiors are nice (see below) but are very rough riding.

The car with the solid blue strip is a HEP 1 long distance coach rebuilt in the late 80s or early 90s. It is xCPR Canadian equipment. Dont think they are going away anytime soon.

I think the LRC will be around for years to come and along with the new equipment.increased service!


----------



## Lonestar648

Be nice to see the design of the new cars. The photo makes the interior look good still, but as mentioned, rides rough. Wonder if they will be kept for extras and special trains.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

NS VIA Fan said:


> I think the LRC will be around for years to come and along with the new equipment.increased service!


From an old Transport 2000 Newsletter: Perhaps we'll see any surplus LRC coaches deployed to routes they were originally envisioned for 40 years ago!

A Prairie Intercity run: Winnipeg-Calgary or in the Maritimes: Halifax-Moncton-Saint John? But that Halifax-Saint John-Montreal daytime run across Maine....Not a chance!


----------



## Northeastern292

NS VIA Fan said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming its these cars that are being replaced? Not the LRC?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....hopefully the cars with the blue and yellow stripe will be the ones replaced. These were rebuilt in the early 90 in the HEP II programme. A lot are former Amtrak cars.....the interiors are nice (see below) but are very rough riding.
> The car with the solid blue strip is a HEP 1 long distance coach rebuilt in the late 80s or early 90s. It is xCPR Canadian equipment. Dont think they are going away anytime soon.
> 
> I think the LRC will be around for years to come and along with the new equipment.increased service!
Click to expand...

I thought the LRC cars were the problem children, as they were made of a carbon steel or something?
Regardless, new equipment is good news for VIA. They can do more and better than they have now. Hopefully, Siemens gets the contract as I've a huge fan of both the Brightline coaches (despite one ride in them) and I bet you they'll deliver on time. Talgo I've heard is also interested in pursuing the contract, but it would have to be a high-level car, as Montreal and Quebec City both have high level platforms that I don't think are going anywhere.

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## NS VIA Fan

The LRC cars are about 35 years old and still the backbone of VIAs corridor fleet. The LRC locomotives are long gone..having been replaced by P42s in 2001..and used along with the older but extensively rebuild F40s

Regarding High Level Platforms: Yes, Montreal and Quebec City and currently under construction in Ottawa.


----------



## jis

It seems like Amtrak has scads of LRC derivative cars in the Acelas too. AFAICT the Acela cars have almost nothing to do with any TGV cars that I have ever seen.


----------



## Trogdor

PerRock said:


> There was some issues with the scrubbers, although I think the problems with them were blown a bit out of proportion by Charger-haters. They don't yet have the Michigan PTC system installed/turned on. Been a few accidents (no fault to the Chargers), and a horn not working on one run of one. That's all I can remember off the top of my head, no where near as bad as the HHP-8s when they were delivered.
> 
> I've not heard of any problems with the Brightline ones, nor the ones on the west coast.
> 
> peter


I dont remember the specifics, because I was only half paying attention when a Chicago ops manager told me, but they have had a lot of trouble with the HEP on those engines this winter.
The Florida and west coast engines have not had to endure any real winter conditions, so it would make sense that they wouldnt be experiencing trouble.


----------



## jis

Chicago Ops seems to have a lot of trouble with everything irrespective of season, no?


----------



## Lonestar648

All the equipment out of Chicago is aging with few spares for protection.


----------



## williamn

It would seem bizarre to replace the LRCs but not the HEPs. Any chance that the new stock will work the LRC routes and the LRCs will then displace the HEPs?


----------



## jamesontheroad

seat38a said:


> I'm assuming its these cars that are being replaced? Not the LRC?





NS VIA Fan said:


> Yes....hopefully the cars with the blue and yellow stripe will be the ones replaced. These were rebuilt in the early 90 in the HEP II programme. A lot are former Amtrak cars.....the interiors are nice (see below) but are very rough riding.
> The car with the solid blue strip is a HEP 1 long distance coach rebuilt in the late 80s or early 90s. It is xCPR Canadian equipment. Dont think they are going away anytime soon.
> 
> I think the LRC will be around for years to come and along with the new equipment.increased service!





williamn said:


> It would seem bizarre to replace the LRCs but not the HEPs. Any chance that the new stock will work the LRC routes and the LRCs will then displace the HEPs?


Here's the interesting thing. The press materials released at the time of the announcement (including this web page on viarail.ca specifically state (with my emphasis):



> Our current fleet, reaching the end of its useful life, *has served us well over the past 35 years*, but it is now time to modernize ensuring safer, faster, more frequent, more accessible and an environmentally-friendly service.


The LRC entered service 1981-84, so it's clear that the fleet renewal announcement refers to them. If the HEP2 cars were being replaced, surely VIA Rail would want to celebrate the retirement of carriages that are almost seventy years old? This could mean a couple of things. One: they're perhaps embarrassed about the age of the HEP2, and will quietly retire them anyway without reminding customers of their age. Two: they'll be retained for new or additional services outside the Corridor when new rolling stock would be too expensive. Three: they'll have another heavy rebuilt (as happened before entry into Corridor service in the 1990s) and join the HEP1 fleet on long distance services.



Lonestar648 said:


> Be nice to see the design of the new cars.


The request for tenders goes live very soon, so it's up to the different companies and consortia who bid to present their own designs.

This one is probably Bombardier's to lose. Having said that, they did just lose the bid to build rolling stock for the Montréal REM (standout quote - "that you can't even get your own government... to buy your product, it's something that will cause them sales grief around the world for a while to come") and in 2016 they screwed up the specification and delivery schedule of double-deck vehicles for the Deux-Montagnes line. So don't underestimate Bombardier's ability to screw things up in their own backyard.



Metra Electric Rider said:


> Were there still plans to electrify the corridor too?


There is still an ambition to, hence the request for proposals for push-pull units with locomotives ready for future electrification, suggesting bi-mode diesel-electrics.

This article from last year summarises recent developments quite well. We should see Transport Canada reporting back this year on some of the options, but in my heart I suspect that provincial and federal politicians will never have the courage to go with the up-front cost of full 300km/h high speed rail, and will instead plump for a new dedicated VIA Rail right of way, somewhere inland from the current lakeshore route.

This map was published by VIA a couple of years ago...


----------



## Trogdor

jamesontheroad said:


> This one is probably Bombardier's to lose. Having said that, they did just lose the bid to build rolling stock for the Montréal REM (standout quote - "that you can't even get your own government... to buy your product, it's something that will cause them sales grief around the world for a while to come") and in 2016 they screwed up the specification and delivery schedule of double-deck vehicles for the Deux-Montagnes line. So don't underestimate Bombardier's ability to screw things up in their own backyard.


It's hard to find anyone that's actually satisfied with Bombardier's work as of late.

Their aircraft division had to basically give away their newest commercial jet to Airbus because they were running out of money to guarantee the program's future (it's also very slow-selling, and even slower at delivering). They had to abandon their Learjet 85 development due to lack of orders and, from what I understand, major defects discovered during flight test.

On the rail side, Amtrak's Acela trains are Bombardier products, and they had a very rocky start. Plus, those trains aren't even 20 years old and they already have replacements on order, while the rest of the system uses equipment twice as old.

Bombardier also built the HHP-8...need I say more?

On the transit side, TTC is upset with Bombardier over slow delivery of their new streetcars. CTA in Chicago changed the specifications of their next railcar order, dropping the requirement that it be compatible with their Bombardier-built 5000s. While nothing official was ever said, someone I spoke with who was very high up in their engineering department and recently retired basically confirmed my suspicion that it was because they didn't want Bombardier to win the bid.

If politics is the biggest influence, then Bombardier might win. But realistically, any decision based on quality and contract performance would have to eliminate Bombardier from contention almost from the start.


----------



## neroden

Yeah, Bombardier's demonstrated incompetence means they are very, very, very unlikely to win any order. Toronto rather loudly cancelled forthcoming procurements from Bombardier, leaving only the one delayed streetcar order (with all the options cancelled, IIRC) and is trying to get compensation from Bombardier for the delays on that. Bombardier has gone from the leader in passenger rail cars to a company which nobody will buy from -- a true management failure.

I'd bet on Siemens, FWIW. They may offer to put a factory in Canada.

VIA is clearly replacing the entire LRC fleet, which was always the problem fleet. I suspect they're replacing the HEP 2 cars on the Corridor as well, but I also suspect the HEP 2 cars will end up being shuffled off to join the HEP 1 fleet: since nobody's making new parts for those old Budd cars, anything they can do to shore up the fleet will help them keep it operating.


----------



## Northeastern292

neroden said:


> Yeah, Bombardier's demonstrated incompetence means they are very, very, very unlikely to win any order. Toronto rather loudly cancelled forthcoming procurements from Bombardier, leaving only the one delayed streetcar order (with all the options cancelled, IIRC) and is trying to get compensation from Bombardier for the delays on that. Bombardier has gone from the leader in passenger rail cars to a company which nobody will buy from -- a true management failure.
> 
> I'd bet on Siemens, FWIW. They may offer to put a factory in Canada.
> 
> VIA is clearly replacing the entire LRC fleet, which was always the problem fleet. I suspect they're replacing the HEP 2 cars on the Corridor as well, but I also suspect the HEP 2 cars will end up being shuffled off to join the HEP 1 fleet: since nobody's making new parts for those old Budd cars, anything they can do to shore up the fleet will help them keep it operating.


I second the Siemens prediction. They have an off-the-shelf product, are already building cars that can run at speeds up to 125mph and they've built equipment for Western Canada properties (Edmonton and Calgary). VIA might give the contract to Siemens based on delivery times, etc. I feel that the Siemens single-level car might be the standard North American intercity railcar for the next few decades. 
It's also worth noting that VIA has a non-voting representative to the PRIIA Section 305 (AASHTO) committee and in minutes VIA indicated a willingness to participate.

The bonus for Siemens to open a plant in Canada also helps their light rail production.

I agree with others on here and I can't see Bombardier getting the contract on part because of their history- they've upset at least two provinces. With the Canadian government trying to spend little as possible on this (I feel), an expensive R&D process I can't see going well.

I don't know the average length of a VIA train, but if you add up the current fleet of LRC's plus the 47 Renaissance coach and club cars you get 145, and based on 32 trainsets of five cars gets you 160 cars. In reality, VIA should order 200 and call it a day. Use it as an excuse to junk the Renaissance cars.

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## Anderson

Oh, I think the Rens are gone regardless. I don't think I've seen a Ren set west of Montreal in _years_ (I do recall one or two showing up a long time ago) and VIA is really only doing two round-trips with them Montreal-Quebec City (out of the five such trips on the timetable), and based on the present timing it might well be that they're only running two sets:
QBC-MTR 0620-0943
MTR-QBC 1300-1612

QBC-MTR 1245-1626
MTR-QBC 1745-2058

Flushing the Rens isn't going to take a lot of work. However, the Budds are another story:
-They provide the only checked baggage-equipped trains Toronto-Montreal (which _is_ a thing)

-They likely ease moves from the J/S train out of Montreal and the occasional all-Budd Ocean

-From what I can tell, they're still heavily used on the SW Ontario routes (I'm counting 3x daily round-trips, and I don't think any of those are timed for a same-day turn).
-Also, I don't think they really need to "reinforce" the LD fleet: The Canadian probably never runs with more than two coaches, and based on pax numbers I doubt the Hudson Bay train does either. The Prince George/Prince Rupert route might occasionally pull a third coach in summer, but that's all I can really see.

So in VIA's shoes, I probably keep running one Budd train each way between Montreal and Toronto each day and use the others in SW Ontario as-is, or maybe slide them to Montreal-Quebec (which has high-level platforms anyway).


----------



## Seaboard92

There is actually a way you can check out which equipment is on which train. When you go to book click train info. And in the URL you will see One of a few options.

HP1 =HEP I

HP2= HEP II

REN= Renaissance

LRC= Light Rapid Comfortable.

RDC= Rail Diesel Car

I concur with your opinion I think that the Rens are going to be phased out in the coming years.

Currently the Ocean Requires two sets of I computed that accurately. Which runs with four coaches, and eight sleepers. If VIA generally only uses manors on the Canadian they would have enough cars to outfit the Ocean as an all Budd train.

Currently they own 29 Chateau sleepers and 40 manors. So in theory you could outfit the Ocean with 12 Chateau sleepers, two skylines, two diners, and two baggage cars without messing up any other trains. And probably improve the utilization of the fleet somewhat as well.

Likely when the new equipment comes it'll replace the LRC fleet.


----------



## Anderson

That's actually how I got my fleet counts...I'm just not enough of a masochist to try counting all the Montreal-Toronto trains when I'm not planning a trip on the route;-)

Right now, the split on Montreal-Quebec is 2 Rens and 3 LRCs each way. Toronto-London had 3 HP2 sets and the rest were LRCs (this swept in both the Sarnia train, Windsor trains, and the one that originates/terminates in London). In my experience, Toronto-Montreal will have one or two HP2 sets in use each way (usually one, but I think a second one goes into the mix sometimes), and there's the J/S train as well. I _think_ they occasionally run a Budd set through from Montreal to Windsor or vv (since I know there's some interoperation of equipment, and all of the SW Ontario trains are midday).

Anyhow...the Rens can be removed from Corridor service with relative ease, so I think we're on the same page. The Ocean is a trickier customer, since I _think_ during the Summer the Canadian starts running through basically the entire Budd sleeper fleet (I've heard stories of there being three "pods" at times), though during the winter there's obviously enough slack that a few Budd Oceans get thrown into the mix to better fit the holiday schedule. That being said, there _should_ be enough Rens for daily operation, at least on paper.

Edit: You forgot MIX, which is the code for "we don't know what the hell we'll be running" (technically it stands for a mixed consist...occasionally that's Budd coaches and an LRC Business Class car or some other odd animal...but I've seen a MIX set be of the same equipment).

Edit 2: Is it just me, or does that map make VIA's map look oddly like it screams "Here are a bunch of ex-CP lines we want to acquire"? The Quebec and Gatineau Railway is your second access to Quebec City (north of the river) while I don't honestly recall who built the line through Peterborough that they want as well.


----------



## Seaboard92

Going all Budd in the winter on the Ocean would actually improve service because the Rens struggle with the harsh Canadian winters. So it would actually help via service he rens by taking them out of service all winter long.

Of course there is something I've heard leaked from my sources at VIA that they are getting ready to get second hand sleepers and diners from the United States. The only possible fleet I know of that would be coming available would either be Amtraks former 10-6 sleepers in Beech Grove or Iowa Pacific. But no one really knows what Ed owns and what he doesn't.

Maybe VIA is trying to say they want all trains on the ex CP. it's a far better route west then the CN route honestly.


----------



## Seaboard92

And we forget that Churchill or what's left of the Hudson Bay service now I believe only uses one trainset.


----------



## Anderson

Some 10-6 sleepers wouldn't be a bad addition to the VIA fleet (I'm honestly surprised they don't have any 10-6 sleepers in the mix as it is, or any all-bedroom cars for that matter...as nice as an open section can be, there's not _that_ much demand for them most of the time, while there's usually plenty of demand for bedrooms and a reasonable amount for roomettes).

Edit: In VIA's shoes, I'd have to presume that the Hudson Bay train will go back to what it was at some point in terms of any fleet use plan (so...is that two sets or three that it would need?).

Also...if they could get a slug of 10-6 sleepers (what did Amtrak have, 10-20 of them as crew cars?) that would probably be enough to replace the Rens for most of the year. Presuming that the HP1 coaches are compatible with whatever comes in from Amtrak, they _might_ need another diner or two to cover the Ocean but otherwise they could arguably reshuffle some of their spare HP1 coaches (presuming there are spares, given current needs versus the needs of the early 1990s) and ditch the Rens alongside the new equipment order.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

Anderson said:


> Some 10-6 sleepers wouldn't be a bad addition to the VIA fleet (I'm honestly surprised they don't have any 10-6 sleepers in the mix as it is, or any all-bedroom cars for that matter...


VIA did that a few years back when they acquired the ‘Northern Spirit’ 10 & 6 sleepers d from Amtrak for the Winnipeg to Churchill trains. VIA had a lot of issues with them and they didn’t last long in service.


----------



## zephyr17

CP did not didn't buy any 10-6 cars to my knowledge, and I don't think CN did either. Both CP and CN bought sleepers with sections long after US railroads gave up on sections and largely went to all private room after WW II. When US RRs did buy streamlined cars with sections, generally the cars were all section cars like the ones in the CZ order, not in combination with private rooms, or were on the old standard Pullman layout of 12-1 (12 sections, 1 compartment). The partial section car was kind of a Canadian thing, not a US thing. CP's "Canadian" order, which is the sole source of current sleeping cars on the Canadian, were only Manor and Chateau configurations, both of which contained 4 sections per car. Both the Manor 4(sctn)-4(rmt)-5(DB)-1(cmpt) and the Chateau 4(sctn)-8(rmt)-2(DB)-1(cmpt)-1(DR) were real mutants in terms of floorplan compared to US RR orders.

I don't know why the Canadian RRs kept the sections long after they were largely gone from US RRs, price sensitivity or regulation come to mind as hypothetical reasons, but they certainly did and that made the pool Via was choosing from initially very different than Amtrak's and pretty much everything had sections. There many have been some all-room cars in the former CN "Blue Fleet" cars, I am not nearly as familiar with those as I am the CP Budds, but I don't think so. In any case, the Blue Fleet was largely scrapped after the big 1990 train-off.

The sections are kind of the bane of Via and I am pretty sure they'd like to be rid of them, along with the individual roomettes. I am sure Via would have really liked it if, back in the day, CP or CN had ordered 4-4-2 (4 double bedroom, 4 compartment, 2 drawing room) sleepers like the Santa Fe _Regal_ series, all private rooms for at least 2 people. There's a reason that Via chose the Chateaus, with 4 sections and 8 roomettes and only 4 private rooms for two or more, to tube for conversion to Prestige.


----------



## railiner

There were some streamliner sleepers on US roads with a combination of open sections and private rooms...

Here are some:

CB&Q 460 Silver Flower

CB&Q 461 Silver Gladiola

CB&Q 462 Silver Hyacinth

CB&Q 463 Silver Iris

CB&Q 464 Silver Orchid

CB&Q 465 Silver Tulip

These were all Budd, stainless steel, 6 Sections, 6 Roomettes, 4 Double Bedrooms, built August-September of 1952 for the Burlington's "Blackhawk" and "American Royal Zephyr".

Then there were:

GN 1160 Gunsight Pass

GN 1161 Ptarmigan Pass

GN 1162 Dawson Pass

GN 1163 Piegan Pass

GN 1164 Logan Pass

GN 1165 Triple Divide Pass

GN 1166 Lincoln Pass

CB&Q 1167 Cut Bank Pass

CB&Q 1168 Red Gap Pass

GN 1169 Swift Current Pass

GN 1180 Stevens Pass

SP&S 700 Indian Pass

These were Pullman-Standard, 4 Sections, 8 Duplex Roomettes, 4 Double Bedrooms, built December 1946 - January 1950, for The Empire Builder, the last two later to The Western Star

SP&S 702 Snake River

GN 1260 Skykomish River

GN 1261 Sun River

GN 1262 Snohomish River

GN 1263 Milk River

GN 1264 Bad Axe River

GN 1265 Chumstick River

GN 1266 Sheyenne River

GN 1267 Skagit River

GN 1268 Mouse River

GN 1269 Poplar River

GN 1270 Tobacco River

GN 1271 Fraser River

GN 1272 Spokane River

GN 1273 Pend Oreille River

GN 1274 Bois De Sioux River

These were Pullman-Standard, 4 Sections, 1 Compartment, 7 Duplex Roomettes, 3 Double Bedrooms, built November to December 1950, for The Empire Builder

Santa Fe had 26 Pullman-Standard, 6 Sections, 6 Roomettes, 4 Double Bedroom sleepers delivered in June 1942 for various trains across its system. These were all named in the "Valley" series.

There were probably some more, but that's all I had time to research for now....

Source: Car Names Numbers and Consists, Robert J. Wayner, Wayner Publications, 1972


----------



## NS VIA Fan

The CPR acquired new 10-5 sleepers in 1950. They were built by CC&F and finished at CP's own Angus Shops in Montreal. The sleepers were used between Montreal and Boston (jointly operated with B&M) Montreal and New York (with D&H) and Toronto and New York (with NYC) as well as the extensive network of overnight trains in what is the 'corridor' today.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

When the new CPR 'Canadian' was launched in 1955 it was not the solid Budd Stainless-Steel train we think of it as. The Tourist-Class section sleepers were still popular so CP took some old 1920s heavyweight 14 section sleepers and rebuilt them (in their Angus Shops)applying Stainless-Steel Fluting (and Beaver-Crest) to the sides to match the new Budd equipment but the old doors, old square-style windows remained along with heavyweight style clerestory roof. These were the U Class Sleepers.

Scroll down here to Photo 12:

(Photo 9 is a Grove Sleeper)

http://www.spookshow.net/passenger/goodcpr.html


----------

