# First Time Getting Harassed for Photography



## Spokker (Dec 30, 2010)

This is your standard "getting harassed for photography" story and I'm not surprised that my experience is very similar to most stories I've heard. I did one thing right and I think I did another thing wrong when dealing with this.

I was on the Sprinter light rail system down in North San Diego County and I was shooting video through the window in the back of the train. After about a minute I was approach by transit security and asked what I was doing. I told them I was filming. They said I couldn't do that. I pressed stop, unfortunately, and sat down.

Then one of the security guards, who are armed by the way, told me to delete it. I refused, nervous as I was. They then went through all of the stereotypical things you usually hear about in these stories. "How do we know you aren't plotting something?" "Just delete it and this can be over." "If you don't delete it we'll have Oceanside PD haul you away in handcuffs." "I'm not trying to give you a hard time." Each time I refused to delete the video. His concerned appeared to be over me taking photographs or video of the cab controls, of which there are already photos of online. 




Eventually the train arrived at the final destination and they asked me to remain seated and they went to the platform. Interestingly enough, the driver of the train moved to the back of the train (which was now the front) to prepare for the return trip. He asked, "Getting hassled for pictures, eh?" I said yeah. He said he didn't care if I took photos but that it was out of his control. I nodded.

They came back and asked for ID. And here is where I think I faltered. I am more familiar with the LA area where the transit police are actual police officers. LA County Sheriff to be exact. I didn't know it at the time but these transit officers were actually private armed security guards based on my research. Unfortunately, I treated them as if they were police, so I handed over the ID. If I had known for sure he was simply private security, I wouldn't have been so quick to hand over my ID. Oh well.

He wrote down my information, gave back my ID and return to the platforms to confer with others. A few moments passed and he returned and lectured me on photography and security. He said he has my information now and then told me to leave, though I never deleted the video, as crappy as it is.

For the record, the Sprinter web site has no information about photography on trains, not even the ordinance that governs all other behavior on the light rail system. http://gonctd.com/pdf_ordinances/Ordinance%203%20-%20Rules%20and%20Regs%20Arrest%20Citations.pdf When I queried transit security on where it says photography is prohibited, he said it's in his handbook.

The only thing I regret is handing over my ID and watching the security guard write it down. I am glad I did not delete the video, however.


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## WhoozOn1st (Jan 2, 2011)

Let's see the video!


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## Rob_C (Jan 2, 2011)

You should have turned the camera on him and told him he's going to be a star on youtube. Oh, and here's an idea: when they ask you for ID, turn it around and tell them you want them to hand over their ID first. If they refuse, suggest you may have to do your civic duty to place them under citizens arrest until their identity as a legitimate police officer can be verified.

Rob


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## MattW (Jan 2, 2011)

You might want to check for both a California stop and identify law as well as the local municipalities. I have not yet been able to find one, but again, check for yourself as I'm NOT a lawyer or a legal authority of any kind. Also, fire e-mails off to everyone and get your story on the local news agencies if you can. The more exposure this huge threat to America gets, the better off we'll all be.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 2, 2011)

IM tired of these rent a cops who think that just cause they got a badge and uniform that they can do whatever they want and no one can challenge them. We need to fight back. Take their picture or record them and put it on the internet.


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## rrdude (Jan 2, 2011)

Rob_C said:


> You should have turned the camera on him and told him he's going to be a star on youtube. Oh, and here's an idea: when they ask you for ID, turn it around and tell them you want them to hand over their ID first. If they refuse, suggest you may have to do your civic duty to place them under citizens arrest until their identity as a legitimate police officer can be verified.
> 
> Rob


Love it! But u gotta have stones to do that, some of the rent-a-cops r real professionals, just moonlighting for extra $$$.Others make you wonder if they were ever trained.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2011)

Sounds like you did pretty well, I wouldn't worry too much about handing over your ID.

I do wish that when I had gotten hassled I had remembered to hit record on my camera (my DSLR will shoot video as well and has a built in mic). Even though I put the lens cap on and put the camera in my bag almost immediately, an audio recording of the WMATA employee's hostile attitude and constant threats would have really come in handy.

I would certainly contact the PR folks and ask about their photography policy, and ask where it's documented in conjunction with complaining about being harassed. WMATA has a nice publication on their website that lists all the restrictions on photography in the system (basically no tripods and no commercial stuff without prior permission, personal photography without a tripod is allowed wherever).


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## Spokker (Jan 2, 2011)

I really hate this video but here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KHZSdDFNP0 It ends when as the security guard is telling me to stop.

Having thought about this all weekend, my mind is racing with ideas. On Monday, I am definitely going to try to contact someone at NCTD and offer to work with them to implement a commonsense photography policy, you know, one that says photography is permitted, but no tripods and flashes and things like that. A visit to the January 20th board meeting is in order, but after that school starts so I'm probably going to drop the issue by then.

Now I want to volunteer to help them produce a video on the photography policy that highlights some best practices, such as not impeding passenger flow and not trespassing on the right of way.

They are probably going to blow me off but it doesn't hurt to try.


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## Spokker (Jan 2, 2011)

rrdude said:


> Love it! But u gotta have stones to do that, some of the rent-a-cops r real professionals, just moonlighting for extra $$$.


Yup, you gotta have balls, which I don't. My hands felt like they were shaking during the encounter, though I don't know if that was visible to others. I'm surprised that I didn't just delete my video/photos and **** myself. I suffer from anxiety anyway and I occasionally stutter even on good days. That's going to be a point against me right from the start.


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## MrFSS (Jan 2, 2011)

Spokker said:


> I really hate this video but here it is: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4KHZSdDFNP0 It ends when as the security guard is telling me to stop.
> 
> Having thought about this all weekend, my mind is racing with ideas. On Monday, I am definitely going to try to contact someone at NCTD and offer to work with them to implement a commonsense photography policy, you know, one that says photography is permitted, but no tripods and flashes and things like that. A visit to the January 20th board meeting is in order, but after that school starts so I'm probably going to drop the issue by then.
> 
> ...


Take a look at this *page*. I have this printed out and cary it in my camera bag.


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## GG-1 (Jan 2, 2011)

MrFSS said:


> Spokker said:
> 
> 
> > I really hate this video but here it is: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4KHZSdDFNP0 It ends when as the security guard is telling me to stop.
> ...


Mahalo for that link, I went looking for that and a link I used to have for a professional photo society that had something similar.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 2, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > Spokker said:
> ...


That works providing the person who stops you actually listens to what your saying and reads the print out otherwise I'm thinking most guards will just toss the paper on the ground and spit at you.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Jan 4, 2011)

they need a court order to take or make you deleate anything .

Not on trains but I have had to deal with "people with limited	common sense ".

I shoot with a canon 1D a $4500 SLR ..I am not pro but I am offen mistakn for a member of the press .( good and bad at times)/\

I used to be a member of the PPA but I let it go a few months ago to cut costs . Perhaps I need to get	my pass again .


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## rrdude (Jan 4, 2011)

I have found that being the first one to offer to " call the police" often rattles the person harassing you. Because then their little charade is " up".


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## GG-1 (Jan 4, 2011)

rrdude said:


> I have found that being the first one to offer to " call the police" often rattles the person harassing you. Because then their little charade is " up".


Aloha

Memory is getting fuzzy as it was almost 2 years ago while on the Texas Eagle I was photographing the Dallas/Fort Worth Station when the Private guard ordered me to stop and give her my camera. I asked then, Insisted she get her supervisor. When She refused I walked away from her. She Then Followed me around Demanding I stop Photographing. She ultimately cussed out our Sleeper Car Attendant when He took my Picture by the door of my car.

Somebody said something during the Saint Louis Gathering, But I ignored him.


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## Rob_C (Jan 4, 2011)

Peter KG6LSE said:


> they need a court order to take or make you deleate anything .


Dang, that may have just changed in the last few days. Check this article out. Scary.

Rob


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## AlanB (Jan 5, 2011)

Rob_C said:


> Peter KG6LSE said:
> 
> 
> > they need a court order to take or make you deleate anything .
> ...


I wouldn't worry too much.

First, as noted in that story, this could well go to the Supreme court now, which could well overturn things.

Second, if that decision stands, the police are allowed to look through your photos. I see nothing that says that they are allowed to delete them. And it gives them no authority to tell you to delete the photos.

Third, this changes nothing in terms of what happened to Spokker. Not only was he not confronted by actual police, he was not arrested. They cannot order anyone to delete, or even show them photos, until and unless they arrest you; assuming that they are actually police. And they had better have some very good reason for arresting you, or they could be in very big trouble.


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## Anderson (Jan 5, 2011)

I have to confess that how I would have reacted would depend on where I was and how much I knew about stated policy at a given yard. If it was a local yard and I knew the photography policy was fairly open or I had permission of some kind (or I was on a public right-of-way and there wasn't an applicable loitering ordnance...there are quite a few such places in my area that would be good for photographing the coal trains coming east), I'd be a hair more aggressive than otherwise would be the case. As I've shown on more than one occasion, if I know I'm covered, I'm _more_ than happy to let you take your one swing at me (proverbially or otherwise) and let it hit. In my (regrettably growing) experience, most bullies do not know how to react to that and it rattles them a bit.

Edit: The other thing I would suggest, respectfully, would be to put decent password protection on whatever you're using (if possible), at least as a guard against deletion. I'm not sure what you can do with cameras, but I'd be shocked if _something_ couldn't be done in this vein. Having something that could automatically back things up wouldn't be a bad move, but I'm horridly unfamiliar with cameras anymore.


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## MattW (Jan 5, 2011)

One thing I'm seriously looking at is the Eye-Fi card. I think they sell them at Walmart now, but it's a standard SD card that can stream your pictures via WiFi to a presumably secure storage location so even if the thugs incinerated the card, the data would still be safe.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Jan 5, 2011)

ROB-C . This kind of stunt is why I said goodby high taxes and nutty rules in Cali and moved to Iowa . I do hope the US supreme court WILL strike this down .

I see data encription being a big busness in few years ..

SD cards by definition can be used	SECURE . but it was ment for music . there is no reason not to have it be the same with .JPGs .

most SD card devices you find today will never use the S in SD but the path way to do it is basicy there.

one glitch in my cam is I can remove the card with the power on . I have SO many times Physicaly fried my card . toasted the daylights out of teh CF cards contoller chip.

It puts a hole IN the chip

so Ill just yank my card during a write . .

as for the EYEFI

I say IF you really want to send them via CDMA	to	dozens of web sits FLICKR photobucket . piccassa . ect . it wil be night mare to have them all pulled .

ajnd nost officers ( no offence ) would not know a Eyefi form a nomal card..

I know a ton of officers in LA where I was from who are good people . but I know most of them are not "up to speed" in digital rights and stuff like this ..

Peter


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## saxman (Jan 8, 2011)

In Dallas we have security personal in the station. A few times they ask other passengers to not take photographs inside the station, which is supposedly not allowed. I even had one ask me about the newly posted Amtrak policy about photos. I told her that only applies to the platform and anyone is free to take photos from the platform if they have an Amtrak ticket. But since the platforms are not Amtrak owned, and they share it with other passenger trains, that rule may not apply either.


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## The Davy Crockett (Jan 8, 2011)

When cameras are outlawed, only outlaws will have cameras.

If someone is hell bent, photographs will not make any real difference, and won't they just take them surreptitously?


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## MattW (Jan 8, 2011)

If DART disallows it, they don't mention it on their site. http://www.dart.org/newsroom/photographypolicy.asp That's their photography policy webpage, but it barely even mentions personal photography. In fact, their "filming fees" document makes specific mention of rail enthusiasts and lists no charge: http://www.dart.org/newsroom/DARTfilmingfees.pdf


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## Nexis4Jersey (Jan 13, 2011)

My friend did an experiment to test certain cops....

Photo policy test


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 13, 2011)

Nexis4Jersey said:


> My friend did an experiment to test certain cops....
> 
> Photo policy test


Here's a piece of legal advice from a guy who has gotten out of more speeding tickets than he can remember:

It is never advisable to "test" cops. Cops are hard working individuals who spend their time protecting and serving you. Yes, there are quite a few that are arrogant, petty tyranical pricks... but even those would generally give up their life to protect yours. Most cops, and I mean real sworn officers of the law, in fact almost all of them, are not going to decide "Hey, I am going to go **** off some nerdy railfan for the hell of it today!" and go over and start bugging you about photography.

If a real, sworn in officer of the law stops you from taking pictures, right or wrong, it is almost always because they feel, for whatever reason, that their is a threat in the picture taking you are doing.

Second, it is a common misconception that cops go around making up offenses to harass you for. Reality: They don't. Why? Because _they don't have to!_.

In my town, spitting on the floor is an offense punishable by up to $100 in fines and/or 3 days in jail. If a cop wants to find a list of minute rules and regulations you are currently in violation of or have been in violation of in the past 60 minutes, he need but go through a book of misdemeanors everybody commits on a regular basis. HE WILL FIND THEM.

Out on the road, rolling through a stop sign or right on red, running a "late" yellow, failing to signal a lane change, and traveling a tenth of a mile an hour over the speed limit are all violations he can attach to you, and likely if he followed you around for ten minutes, you'd commit all of them.

If you are somebody who goes around "testing" cops, the cop will see you as the kind of pedantic jerk who wastes cops time with nonsense thus putting people who really need them at danger because they are spending their time dealing with the likes of you. Cops, in general, dislike you more than petty thieves, who usually have some justification for their actions other than jerking around an officer of the law.

So that cop will stop you, and determine just what rules you are violating and proceed to throw the book at you on all of them. And what are you going to do about this? He is being unreasonable, perhaps, but he is not falsely doing anything. So you're going to... call the cops on him?

When a jerky rentacop bugs you about your camera, you politely and calmly talk to him until such time that you determine you can't actually move him on that way. Then you politely, but firmly, insist that you feel you did nothing wrong and wish to talk to their supervisor. If such is not granted, call the police and claim that a rentacop is unlawfully detaining you. Don't threaten to do it. Just do the following: "Excuse me, sir, I am just reaching into my pocket to get my phone," while grabbing your phone slowly out of your pocket. Then dial 911 and claim unlawful detainment.

Ever seen the movie relationship between cops and private dicks? Private dicks pretending they are real cops really do **** cops the hell off. And a security guard, believe it or not, falls into the same category. They will likely immediately arrest him and make his life generally miserable.

And if they physically stop you? You have just won a goldmine in a lawsuit. Feel free to submit to what they do to you and then call a good lawyer.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 13, 2011)

So i suppose cops and rent a cops don't make up rules as they go along and decide to arrest people cause they are taking pictures hmmm. yeah right.

"you do know its aganst the law to take pictures right right etc. no its not against the law you just think it is.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Jan 14, 2011)

I would not have done what you did . but here is the thing the person	was not screeming	Oh look at me I I am filming . ( MC hammer) cant touch this style .

He was just fliming	like I might do If I was in the mood to capture some pass by's of some trains .

yet he kept the tape running	after the shot . ( like I do some times too) ..

sadly	Like I have stated before . Lots of officers are not aware of the REAL Laws . IMHO they need to keep up with the times and read weekly to see if the laws	are what they think they are. a transit officer is going to run in to	much diff situations then a beat cop . so they should take it upon them selves to read the company's policy on things that relate to there JOB . I know I do as a E tech and a costumer .

EG photos are	a issue . so READ up on them . mobs are a issue . learn them .	DUI is not likely so ease up on that training . ect ect

Paul baurt	the mall cop does not need to read up on Pitt manuvers	or	SWAT raids .

Ill state I do NOT belve in prodding officers to test laws.	but I think you need to burn on CD that one part of teh tape and send too PATH .

il be honist I dont see TSA going gaga over me shooting	photos of a 747 at LAX . I have shot more photos of jets at APs then paris hilton at prom night .. not a single issue ... and that was dressed like this My link

and frankly I consider a jet a better ermmm " device " then a PTC	slow train with no "steering" .......


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 16, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> So i suppose cops and rent a cops don't make up rules as they go along and decide to arrest people cause they are taking pictures hmmm. yeah right.
> 
> "you do know its aganst the law to take pictures right right etc. no its not against the law you just think it is.


If a cop arrested me for taking pictures "illegally", I would have a brief discussion with their legal department about the kind of morons they are hiring as police officers, and then slam the department with a false arrest lawsuit. And most cops know that.

Rent a cops are NOT cops. They aren't close to cops. They are generally lame individuals incapable of getting more appealing work, such as flipping burgers at McDonalds, which generally pays better. You get many of the risks that cops get wherein you risk your life with less training, no beneifits, no pension, no huge salary, and none of the equipment that protects your ass. All a rentacop is capable of doing is escorting you from the premises they patrol or making a citizens arrest.

If you think they can bother you for things you aren't doing wrong, you've got another think coming. Ask for them to call the cops on you, or call the cops on them. You could make a decent living on the false arrest lawsuits if you did this on a regular basis.


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## tp49 (Jan 17, 2011)

Peter KG6LSE said:


> sadly	Like I have stated before . Lots of officers are not aware of the REAL Laws . IMHO they need to keep up with the times and read weekly to see if the laws	are what they think they are. a transit officer is going to run in to	much diff situations then a beat cop . so they should take it upon them selves to read the company's policy on things that relate to there JOB . I know I do as a E tech and a costumer .


A lot of civilians are ignorant of the law as well. This seems to happen a lot when these photo threads rear their head.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 17, 2011)

It is not illegal to take pictures or videos of trains. using the "well since 9/11" is getting old fast. Just cause some rent a cop doesn't like it does not give them the right to abuse there power and go on a ego trip. You also got paranoid engineers who report railfans more and more these days.


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## jis (Jan 17, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> It is not illegal to take pictures or videos of trains. using the "well since 9/11" is getting old fast. Just cause some rent a cop doesn't like it does not give them the right to abuse there power and go on a ego trip. You also got paranoid engineers who report railfans more and more these days.


Yes, that happens. Sometimes operating personnel do so because they themselves were doing something contrary to regulations which got recorded in your photo. We (several of us from this board) were involved in an incident at an LIRR station where an LIRR train showed up with the rear flag riding in the front cab. As we proceeded to take photos she first said we were interfering in her work, which we pointed out could not be true. Then she came off the train, and we pointed out she was now trying to interfere in our freedom, upon which she went back and called the cops. The cops ignored her and did not show up. I suspect her main concern was that she was recorded being present at a place in the train where she was not supposed to be according regulations.

A few engineer acquaintances at NJT tell me that they try to avoid calling cops unless they want to be stuck passing that spot where they called from at reduced speed until the cops take their own sweet time to complete their investigation. But then again, if the photographer is indeed doing something wrong, like infringing on the RoW, then rightfully they should be reported, because they are a potential danger to themselves and others at that point.


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## Nexis4Jersey (Jan 17, 2011)

jis said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > It is not illegal to take pictures or videos of trains. using the "well since 9/11" is getting old fast. Just cause some rent a cop doesn't like it does not give them the right to abuse there power and go on a ego trip. You also got paranoid engineers who report railfans more and more these days.
> ...


Alot of younger fanners and Freight fanners in particular stand in the ROW and do stupid things....its one thing to stand at a crossing or station platform but along the Embankment of the ROW is pushing it. And when there called out on it they don't think there doing anything wrong...of course then the rules change for all of us. Like a few years ago when a group of fanners used the flash at night at Secaucus , they didn't care that they got the rules changed restricting photography at night. They also made videos boasting about it...and other stuff. The thing that really made me mad was no in the rail fanning community saw any problem with it. Lately ive been getting slammed because ive had enough with the trespassing and other silly ROW crap....ive noticed the cops have become more rude and aggressive and there referencing incidents that these fanners have done... sigh


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 17, 2011)

The ironic thing is that I now feel inclined to be more secretive when taking photos, which isn't good for any of us. I should be able to take photos from public spaces without having cops asking me a bunch of questions or threatening me with incarceration. So far most of my bad luck has been in or near airports, but I feel the time will come when trains are also on the banned list.


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## Spokker (Jan 17, 2011)

The silly things that other photographers do is irrelevant because it isn't the photography that matters, it's whatever you are doing while you take photos. When one stands in the right of way and takes photographs, the photography isn't the illegal part, it's the trespassing that is illegal. Trespassing is illegal whether you are an idiot with a camera or an idiot walking along the tracks coming home from school.

There are plenty of public areas along right of ways to take photos. There is no reason to trespass.


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