# Disobedience on Amtrak



## Oreius (May 26, 2021)

I’m sure you’ve read the news about the lady who assaulted a flight attendant on a Southwest Airlines flight. Apparently, the unruly lady popped the attendant in the mouth, breaking two of her teeth. The lady and her 3 kids refused to wear a mask on the flight and was (supposedly) being defiant. She was charged with felony assault.
Now, here’s my question. How does Amtrak deal with unruly passengers? I do know the Conductor is authorized to “throw someone off.” The Conductor is in charge of all onboard crew members. I also know Amtrak has a dedicated police force, primarily in the Northeast. Has anyone ever witnessed unruly behavior? Both Southwest Airlines and the FAA have reported an “explosion” of unruly passengers on flights.


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## Oreius (May 26, 2021)

Unruly skies: Union chief highlights airline passenger misconduct


There have been 2,500 incidents of unruly airline passengers this year, says the US Federal Aviation Administration.




www.google.com


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## zephyr17 (May 26, 2021)

Amtrak conductors have the authority to remove unruly passengers from the train and do. I have been on several trains where passengers were removed at station stops not there destinations, and twice I have been on trains where passengers were removed at grade crossings into the arms of local law enforcement.

Amtrak has the advantage of not having to land before before removing troublesome passengers, although they do have to stop.

Corallary: Never mouth off to an Amtrak conductor. Some can be, shall we say, a bit assertive in exercising their power.


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## Oreius (May 26, 2021)

You don’t have to worry about me badmouthing a conductor. Train time is fun time!


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## Ryan (May 26, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> although they do have to stop.


While not a requirement, it is highly recommended.


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## VentureForth (May 27, 2021)

I never witnessed an ejection, but my daughter has. A drunk passenger was trying over and over again to sit in business class on the Palmetto several years ago. Conductor stopped the train at a grade crossing where she was provided a transfer to a Crown Vic with blinky lights.


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## Mike G (May 27, 2021)

There are several YouTube’s with the virtual camera with compelling evidence of eviction  ( and PAX left behind at station stops )


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## Qapla (May 27, 2021)

I was on a day trip to Tampa before Covid when the train picked up two guys headed from Orlando to Tampa. Those guys were a bit drunk and got into a shouting match with a lady in a wheelchair. The conductor broke-up the shouting match and told the two guys they would have to get off at the next stop. They were not to happy but agreed to get off. The lady in the wheelchair tried to get in "one last word" as the two guys headed to the door at the stop and the conductor told her if she said another word to them she would be getting off the train, too. Needless to say, the lady shut her mouth and hardly uttered another word all the way to Tampa.


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## MARC Rider (May 27, 2021)

VentureForth said:


> I never witnessed an ejection, but my daughter has. A drunk passenger was trying over and over again to sit in business class on the Palmetto several years ago. Conductor stopped the train at a grade crossing where she was provided a transfer to a Crown Vic with blinky lights.


I presume you mean a "drunk passenger ***with only a coach ticket*** was trying over and over again to sit in business class." If they start kicking people off just because they had a bit too much to drink (even if they're quiet drunks), then I'm going on the wagon when I ride business class from now on!


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## VentureForth (May 27, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I presume you mean a "drunk passenger ***with only a coach ticket*** was trying over and over again to sit in business class." If they start kicking people off just because they had a bit too much to drink (even if they're quiet drunks), then I'm going on the wagon when I ride business class from now on!


Yes yes yes yes yes....


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## Dakota 400 (May 27, 2021)

On the SWC out of Los Angeles, during the early seating for dinner (we were not long out of LA), a well pickled man became loud and abusive in the dining car. His behavior persisted and the train crew moved him into the SSL where I was sitting. The train pulled into into its next station and the crew were attempting to remove him from the SSL (police were waiting on the platform) when he became combative. A passenger sitting next to me went to the assistance of the crew. The three of them managed to subdue the man enough to get him down the stairs and off the train. 

I have never understood why the police did not board the train to assist the train crew in removing the drunk.


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## Bob Dylan (May 27, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> On the SWC out of Los Angeles, during the early seating for dinner (we were not long out of LA), a well pickled man became loud and abusive in the dining car. His behavior persisted and the train crew moved him into the SSL where I was sitting. The train pulled into into its next station and the crew were attempting to remove him from the SSL (police were waiting on the platform) when he became combative. A passenger sitting next to me went to the assistance of the crew. The three of them managed to subdue the man enough to get him down the stairs and off the train.
> 
> I have never understood why the police did not board the train to assist the train crew in removing the drunk.


If I'm not mistaken Local LE have no jurisdiction on Federal Property.

Every time I've seen someone put off a Train ,which is many times in 50 years of riding, the only LE Officers I've seen board a Train are Amtrak Police, or Federal Agents.

All the times Ive observed de-trained passengers being turned over to Local LE Officers occurred off the Train.


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## Dakota 400 (May 27, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> If I'm not mistaken Local LE have no jurisdiction on Federal Property.
> 
> Every time I've seen someone put off a Train ,which is many times in 50 years of riding, the only LE Officers I've seen board a Train are Amtrak Police, or Federal Agents.
> 
> All the times Ive observed de-trained passengers being turned over to Local LE Officers occurred off the Train.



Thanks for the information. 

I was very appreciative of what my fellow passenger did to help the train crew. As he left his seat to help, he told another passenger and me to move to the end of the SSL closest to the dining car to get us out of the "action zone". There are good people in this world!


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## LookingGlassTie (May 27, 2021)

Speaking of disorderly conduct, does the Engineer have the latitude to stop the train in any "safe" location or does he/she have to bring it to a stop at a specific location according to Amtrak's SOP and/or that of the host railroad (if applicable)?


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## Bob Dylan (May 27, 2021)

LookingGlassTie said:


> Speaking of disorderly conduct, does the Engineer have the latitude to stop the train in any "safe" location or does he/she have to bring it to a stop at a specific location according to Amtrak's SOP and/or that of the host railroad (if applicable)?


The Conductor usually directs the Engineer where to Spot the Train @ Station Stops, and the Dispatcher also is in direct contact with the Engineer.

Of course, in an Emergency, the Engineer is the one who can Slow or Stop the Train since they have a direct view ahead of the Train.


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## jloewen (May 28, 2021)

VentureForth said:


> I never witnessed an ejection, but my daughter has. A drunk passenger was trying over and over again to sit in business class on the Palmetto several years ago. Conductor stopped the train at a grade crossing where she was provided a transfer to a Crown Vic with blinky lights.


When I was a kid growing up in Decatur, the NY Yankees stars were ejected from the Wabash Cannonball for being drunk and disorderly. They had to rent a taxi to drive the last 120 miles to STL to play the Browns. This made the Decatur newspaper, and I wrote a verse about it for the famous song, "Wabash Cannonball." Do read my article; it contains everything I know about the song and I'd like any feedback. Wabash Cannonball | History News Network
The Yankees -- Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford, and all the boys,
Were drinking in the club car in Decatur, Illinois.
They all got thrown off the train; they could not play baseball,
'Cause they were drunk and disorderly on the Wabash Cannonball. 
-- Jim Loewen


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## zephyr17 (May 28, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> The Conductor usually directs the Engineer where to Spot the Train @ Station Stops, and the Dispatcher also is in direct contact with the Engineer.
> 
> Of course, in an Emergency, the Engineer is the one who can Slow or Stop the Train since they have a direct view ahead of the Train.


Apparently the current Amtrak policies are the passenger being ejected must be left at a regular station stop, or must be met by law enforcement at a location other than a station (typically a grade crossing in that case). Usually these days they want law enforcement even at a station in an ejection situation.

The conductor and engineer coordinate with the dispatcher, who coordinates with law enforcement, to figure out where law enforcement will meet the train.


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## desertflyer (May 28, 2021)

In Feb 2020 on the Coast Starlight we made a stop at a grade crossing outside of Paso Robles. I noticed someone got off with luggage and started walking away from the train. We continued on. I asked the car attendant and she claimed the person was kicked off the train for striking another passenger. No police involved and most people probably didn't even think anything of the stop, but getting kicked off at a grade crossing in the middle of nowhere seems like a pretty bad punishment on its own.


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## me_little_me (May 28, 2021)

desertflyer said:


> In Feb 2020 on the Coast Starlight we made a stop at a grade crossing outside of Paso Robles. I noticed someone got off with luggage and started walking away from the train. We continued on. I asked the car attendant and she claimed the person was kicked off the train for striking another passenger. No police involved and most people probably didn't even think anything of the stop, but getting kicked off at a grade crossing in the middle of nowhere seems like a pretty bad punishment on its own.


They might have been asked if they would leave quietly or if they would prefer to have charges filed against them, in which case the police would be called to meet them. They also might have called someone to meet them nearby while still on the train and agreed with the conductor to walk directly away from the drain and not stop until the train departed. And it depends on whether the person struck wanted to file charges or file a complaint against Amtrak which would require that the conductor protect himself by having the police make a report and possibly arrest the perp.


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## railiner (May 28, 2021)

Ejecting someone in the middle of nowhere, with no shelter or other accommodation available, is prohibited by Company regulation's, as it could subject the Company to high liability. If the perpetrator's behavior was so egregious to warrant this extreme measure, the train would have to wait at the scene until law enforcement arrived, at least.


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## zephyr17 (May 28, 2021)

That's my understanding, too.


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## cirdan (May 28, 2021)

Is Amtrak obligated to refund the value of the part of the journey the passenger being ejected was not able to make?


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## cirdan (May 28, 2021)

Not unruly, but strange.

I was on the Texas Eagle once and there was a passenger in the SSL or in the Cafe car, who might have been slightly confused mentally, or might have used some substances. But was otherwise reasonably well behaved.

This passenger told me, and several other people besides, that he was travelling to Memphis. I said the train wasn't going to Memphis and was concerned he might have boarded the wrong train in Chicago.

But the Amtrak staff didn't seem to have any trouble with him so I assume they were satisfied with his reason for being there.

At every stop he would be asking if we thought the next stop was Memphis.

I don't know where he got off eventually. Later during the trip I didn't see him any more.


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## desertflyer (May 28, 2021)

railiner said:


> Ejecting someone in the middle of nowhere, with no shelter or other accommodation available, is prohibited by Company regulation's, as it could subject the Company to high liability.



It could have been a tall tale from the SCA. Perhaps it was a freight worker who was being dropped off. This is the crossing where it happened in San Miguel, CA, so there is a small town there.










Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl


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## Steve4031 (May 28, 2021)

I personally witnessed a drunk passenger get kicked off of the Lincoln Service at Dwight in 2014. He got on in Chicago and sat in BC. He used profanity and was lamenting the Cubs loss that day. He was right behind me. I ignored him until he reached between the seats and poked me and asked for a pen. I firmly told him no. I did not want to engage him in any conversation because my GF does not like profanity. It’s not possible for me to judge someone for profanity because I use it too sometimes. 

After I told him no, he called me a four letter word. I got up and notified the LSA. I explained what happened and that I was willing to ignore him until he directly called me a name. The LSA called the conductor and both the conductor and AC arrived. Both were African American women. They checked tickets. And asked the guy to go with them. As he was he was leaving he called me a 4 letter word starting with B that is a real no no around women. The conductor said to me, What did he just call you?” I told her enough without using it, and off they went. After Dwight she came back and profusely apologized for my experience and stated that she had seen me on numerous trips and that I was never a problem. She explained that he had been put off in Dwight because he also called her the 4 letter word. That was a quick stop. I didn’t even know he was put off.


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## Ryan (May 28, 2021)

I'm pretty sure that 4 letter word actually has 5 letters.


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## Cal (May 28, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> I personally witnessed a drunk passenger get kicked off of the Lincoln Service at Dwight in 2014. He got on in Chicago and sat in BC. He used profanity and was lamenting the Cubs loss that day. He was right behind me. I ignored him until he reached between the seats and poked me and asked for a pen. I firmly told him no. I did not want to engage him in any conversation because my GF does not like profanity. It’s not possible for me to judge someone for profanity because I use it too sometimes.
> 
> After I told him no, he called me a four letter word. I got up and notified the LSA. I explained what happened and that I was willing to ignore him until he directly called me a name. The LSA called the conductor and both the conductor and AC arrived. Both were African American women. They checked tickets. And asked the guy to go with them. As he was he was leaving he called me a 4 letter word starting with B that is a real no no around women. The conductor said to me, What did he just call you?” I told her enough without using it, and off they went. After Dwight she came back and profusely apologized for my experience and stated that she had seen me on numerous trips and that I was never a problem. She explained that he had been put off in Dwight because he also called her the 4 letter word. That was a quick stop. I didn’t even know he was put off.


Good conductor(s), I hope they're still with Amtrak


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## Willbridge (May 28, 2021)

I had two soldiers put off the _Canadian _in Revelstoke. They had brought their own alcohol into the coach. I thought at first that they'd have a drink and then go to sleep but one drink each wasn't enough and they were getting loud. I could hear other passengers muttering, so I went for the conductor.

It's amazing to me to think of how many trips I've made where nothing happened or where it was dealt with smoothly enough to not draw attention. Oregon Revised Statutes used to have a section authorizing "powers of sheriff" to railway conductors so that they could deputize help in dealing with problems. A clue that problems on board are not new.


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## JontyMort (May 28, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Not unruly, but strange.
> 
> I was on the Texas Eagle once and there was a passenger in the SSL or in the Cafe car, who might have been slightly confused mentally, or might have used some substances. But was otherwise reasonably well behaved.
> 
> ...


That’s because you slept through the Memphis stop.


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## jloewen (May 29, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> I personally witnessed a drunk passenger get kicked off of the Lincoln Service at Dwight in 2014. He got on in Chicago and sat in BC. He used profanity and was lamenting the Cubs loss that day. He was right behind me. I ignored him until he reached between the seats and poked me and asked for a pen. I firmly told him no. I did not want to engage him in any conversation because my GF does not like profanity. It’s not possible for me to judge someone for profanity because I use it too sometimes.
> 
> After I told him no, he called me a four letter word. I got up and notified the LSA. I explained what happened and that I was willing to ignore him until he directly called me a name. The LSA called the conductor and both the conductor and AC arrived. Both were African American women. They checked tickets. And asked the guy to go with them. As he was he was leaving he called me a 4 letter word starting with B that is a real no no around women. The conductor said to me, What did he just call you?” I told her enough without using it, and off they went. After Dwight she came back and profusely apologized for my experience and stated that she had seen me on numerous trips and that I was never a problem. She explained that he had been put off in Dwight because he also called her the 4 letter word. That was a quick stop. I didn’t even know he was put off.


4 letter word starting with B that is a real no no around women. Please teach me that word. I've been thinkin' and thinkin', to no avail...


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## Palmetto (May 29, 2021)

When someone gets dumped of in the middle of nowhere, I'm pretty sure there is law enforcement at the crossing to receive the "dumpee".


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## Hans627 (May 29, 2021)

jloewen said:


> When I was a kid growing up in Decatur, the NY Yankees stars were ejected from the Wabash Cannonball for being drunk and disorderly. They had to rent a taxi to drive the last 120 miles to STL to play the Browns. This made the Decatur newspaper, and I wrote a verse about it for the famous song, "Wabash Cannonball." Do read my article; it contains everything I know about the song and I'd like any feedback. Wabash Cannonball | History News Network
> The Yankees -- Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford, and all the boys,
> Were drinking in the club car in Decatur, Illinois.
> They all got thrown off the train; they could not play baseball,
> ...


Thanks for sharing. I found the article educational, interesting and enjoyable!


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## cirdan (May 29, 2021)

Palmetto said:


> When someone gets dumped of in the middle of nowhere, I'm pretty sure there is law enforcement at the crossing to receive the "dumpee".



so am I .

if somebody is inebriated with alcohol and then just dumped somewhere hours or even days from any place they could get food or assistance, and something happens to them , Amtrak might well risk being charged in some way . So they would make sure there is somebody to take custody .

No matter how awful their previous behavior .


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## Oreius (Jun 7, 2021)

Qapla said:


> I was on a day trip to Tampa before Covid when the train picked up two guys headed from Orlando to Tampa. Those guys were a bit drunk and got into a shouting match with a lady in a wheelchair. The conductor broke-up the shouting match and told the two guys they would have to get off at the next stop. They were not to happy but agreed to get off. The lady in the wheelchair tried to get in "one last word" as the two guys headed to the door at the stop and the conductor told her if she said another word to them she would be getting off the train, too. Needless to say, the lady shut her mouth and hardly uttered another word all the way to Tampa.


Why would you ride from Orlando to Tampa? That’s only 75 miles. Very little time to grab a cold one in the Lounge!


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## Oreius (Jun 7, 2021)

jloewen said:


> 4 letter word starting with B that is a real no no around women. Please teach me that word. I've been thinkin' and thinkin', to no avail...



I am thinking it’s a five-letter word—another name for a female dog. I hate the word, so I never say it!


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## Oreius (Jun 7, 2021)

Here’s my take on increased disobedience—whether on a train or a plane. Many people are just angry at this time. I won’t go into details because I can mention a few. I’ve seen it on the roads much more lately as well; people “tailgating” and then passing you illegally on a double line!! Needless honking as well. The lady on Southwest was clearly at fault. Southwest (and the TSA/FAA) require masks to be worn throughout the duration of a flight—unless actively eating or drinking. It’s there in black and white; they tell you before takeoff that “Federal regulations require passenger compliance with crew instructions and printed directions!” Scary world..


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## flitcraft (Jun 7, 2021)

I agree with Oreius that random bad behavior seems to have gotten much worse recently, especially during Pandemica. "I gotta right to" and "You can't stop me" seems to be the beginning of too many statements these days. I saw a couple yesterday about to enter a store with their pet dog. The entrance to the store had a huge sign saying that only service animals were permitted inside. I watched them pause for about a minute and then barge in, and of course, when a store employee politely called their attention to the rule--based on a local ordinance--I heard the "But I have a right to..." remonstration start up. 

Honestly, people...


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## Oreius (Jun 8, 2021)

I don’t like wearing the masks, and I get it that’s it’s a pain. However, I understand rules are rules. I made an agreement to travel, and thus must accept the fact. I think of it as a “contract.”


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## wwchi (Jun 8, 2021)

We stopped one time after there was a VERY drunk guy mouthing off non stop (years ago, not mask related)...conductors called ahead for police to be where they were going to stop. They got the drunk guy off the train and you could see out the window the police pulling out MULTIPLE MACHETES from his duffle bag. Glad they got him off...I did see and hear him rambling on and on prior to that so who knows how many others did if he was going through the train. This was either the Blue Water or Wolverine maybe 12 years ago. crazy.


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## Ziv (Jun 8, 2021)

It is perplexing how so many of the people that get ejected from the train had been indulging in alcoholic beverages! There must be a connection somewhere... 

LOL!

“Ah *beer*. The *cause* of and the *solution* to all of life's problems.” -Homer Simpson




Dakota 400 said:


> On the SWC out of Los Angeles, during the early seating for dinner (we were not long out of LA), a well pickled man became loud and abusive in the dining car. His behavior persisted and the train crew moved him into the SSL where I was sitting. The train pulled into into its next station and the crew were attempting to remove him from the SSL (police were waiting on the platform) when he became combative. A passenger sitting next to me went to the assistance of the crew. The three of them managed to subdue the man enough to get him down the stairs and off the train.
> 
> I have never understood why the police did not board the train to assist the train crew in removing the drunk.


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## BuffaloBoy (Jun 8, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> If I'm not mistaken Local LE have no jurisdiction on Federal Property.
> 
> Every time I've seen someone put off a Train ,which is many times in 50 years of riding, the only LE Officers I've seen board a Train are Amtrak Police, or Federal Agents.
> 
> All the times Ive observed de-trained passengers being turned over to Local LE Officers occurred off the Train.


This is just one of the videos I have seen of LE Officers boarding a train to do an eviction: . Just sayin'


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## BuffaloBoy (Jun 8, 2021)

Ryan said:


> I'm pretty sure that 4 letter word actually has 5 letters.


Lol! Nitpicker!


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## JontyMort (Jun 8, 2021)

BuffaloBoy said:


> This is just one of the videos I have seen of LE Officers boarding a train to do an eviction: . Just sayin'



And recent, too - staff wearing masks.


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## Asher (Jun 8, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I don’t like wearing the masks, and I get it that’s it’s a pain. However, I understand rules are rules. I made an agreement to travel, and thus must accept the fact. I think of it as a “contract.”


I was told I look better wearing a mask. Don’t know if they were joking, but hey, why risk it.


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## LookingGlassTie (Jun 8, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I don’t like wearing the masks, and I get it that’s it’s a pain. However, I understand rules are rules. I made an agreement to travel, and thus must accept the fact. I think of it as a “contract.”



I feel the same way about the masks, but as you said, traveling on Amtrak is like a contract. So I would "suck it up" and deal with it too.


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## me_little_me (Jun 8, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I don’t like wearing the masks, and I get it that’s it’s a pain. However, I understand rules are rules. I made an agreement to travel, and thus must accept the fact. I think of it as a “contract.”


Unfortunately, a lot of corporate contracts are written such that they have all the power and you have none and that means you may not be able to buy anything, repair anything, return anything or even complain about anything without losing.

On the other hand, we do have a way to complain to our legislators and have the law changed to prohibit certain practices but only if the issue is so deafening by so many that it overcomes the massive lobbying from the corporations.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 8, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Unfortunately, a lot of corporate contracts are written such that they have all the power and you have none and that means you may not be able to buy anything, repair anything, return anything or even complain about anything without losing.
> 
> On the other hand, we do have a way to complain to our legislators and have the law changed to prohibit certain practices but only if the issue is so deafening by so many that it overcomes the massive lobbying from the corporations.


The mask requirement is a Federal reg, effective through September 13th. Not much to do with Amtrak's contract of carriage other than what I presume is an agreement to follow Amtrak policies and relevant regulations.

As far as the contract of carriage is concerned, I find the mandatory arbitration much more concerning than an agreement to follow policies and regulations.


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## lordsigma (Jun 8, 2021)

Amtrak has put people off for outright refusal to abide by the mask policy and belligerence related to it. I heard about an auto train that discharged a belligerent passenger at Jacksonville station for refusing to abide by the mask policy.


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## Cal (Jun 8, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak has put people off for outright refusal to abide by the mask policy and belligerence related to it. I heard about an auto train that discharged a belligerent passenger at Jacksonville station for refusing to abide by the mask policy.


Good, that's what should happen.


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## PVD (Jun 8, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak has put people off for outright refusal to abide by the mask policy and belligerence related to it. I heard about an auto train that discharged a belligerent passenger at Jacksonville station for refusing to abide by the mask policy.


good...


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## zephyr17 (Jun 8, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak has put people off for outright refusal to abide by the mask policy and belligerence related to it. I heard about an auto train that discharged a belligerent passenger at Jacksonville station for refusing to abide by the mask policy.


As it should be.


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## Eric in East County (Jun 8, 2021)

The only incident of gross misbehavior that we personally witnessed on board an Amtrak train occurred in July 2017 when we were heading back to San Diego on a *Pacific Surfliner*.

Just outside of Fullerton, we heard a loud voice coming from the café in the lower level of our coach. Shortly afterwards a loudmouth, belligerent man came up from below and took the seat directly behind us. Just outside of Anaheim, he got into an argument with the conductor when asked to show his ticket. The conductor handled the situation well and the loudmouth (who was probably drunk) eventually produced a ticket for a passage from Oxnard to Los Angeles, where he had failed to detrain! Fortunately, the conductor was able to hustle him off the train at Anaheim without further incident. 

Eric & Pat


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## WICT106 (Jun 8, 2021)

I've witnessed a small number of incidents which resulted in the removal of one or more passengers from train. All except one involved the misuse of alcoholic beverages. When I mentioned this to a train crewman aboard the Empire Builder in 2019, he responded that he would rather not sell booze aboard the train, as there were more than enough notorious incidents involving drunken passengers during his time with Amtrak. The train crew detest dealing with drunks.


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## dlagrua (Jun 9, 2021)

Handling incidents of bad behavior is far easier on the train. In the rare event of fisticuffs the LD train has many more employees to help out. The majority of them are male and not always small. On the regionals they would have a conductor or two, and the one food service guy but they have enough personnel to get the job done. We have seen a number of incidents of misbehavior but the passengers involved all backed down. Some of the onboard staff take their job very seriously so the rule is don't **** them off. On on trip a conductor came on the PA system and said "if you are caught smoking, you will be put off the train, without further warning".!


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## Ziv (Jun 9, 2021)

It may be a Federal requirement in certain places but here in eastern Maryland masks are pretty much a thing of the past. At the hardware store, grocery, three cafes, two parks, pool supply store and the library the masks were optional and rare. Wells Fargo bank was the only place masks were required. Harris Teeter grocery was about evenly divided between maskers and non-maskers but the rest were nearly mask-free.
Which may be a bit early. Only 52% (that number was 45.2% 30 days ago) of the US population has gotten at least one jab and approximately 25% (?) have had Covid so maybe 64%’ish of the US has the antibodies needed…



zephyr17 said:


> The mask requirement is a Federal reg, effective through September 13th. Not much to do with Amtrak's contract of carriage other than what I presume is an agreement to follow Amtrak policies and relevant regulations.
> 
> As far as the contract of carriage is concerned, I find the mandatory arbitration much more concerning than an agreement to follow policies and regulations.


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## Exvalley (Jun 9, 2021)

I wonder what Amtrak does if a passenger commits a crime in one state but the next stop is in another state?

For example, a passenger assaults a conductor after the eastbound Empire Builder leaves Wolf Point, Montana but before it reaches the North Dakota Border. If they kick the passenger off at Williston, North Dakota, I don't see how the local police in Williston would have any authority to detain the passenger for breaking a Montana state law - assuming (safely) that Montana has not issued an arrest warrant in that short a period of time. 

The train can always stop prior to the border and meet local police in the state where the crime occurred. 

If they can't do that, local police are usually able to arrest someone for committing a federal crime, so I assume that the local police in North Dakota would be able to make an arrest based on that authority. Presumably there is a federal law that makes it a federal crime to engage in a criminal act on Amtrak.


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## lizpackslight (Jun 9, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak has put people off for outright refusal to abide by the mask policy and belligerence related to it. I heard about an auto train that discharged a belligerent passenger at Jacksonville station for refusing to abide by the mask policy.


They are super clear about the mask requirement and diligent about reminding people. I embarassed myself by walking into the dining car without mine once, and the attendant hollered down the car, "Gotta have your mask!" I said, "Oh, shoot!" and wheeled around to go get it, and everyone in the car laughed.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 9, 2021)

I was a obnoxious teenage rail fan back in the 1980s. When I was in the 8th grade, 1980, I rode the Rio Grande Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake City and back with my Dad. I enjoyed hours in the dome car and in between the cars with the Dutch door open as we rolled through the canyons. The crew did not appear to mind. I saw other adult rail fans opening the Dutch door. I learned how to open the top half by watching them. 

When Amtrak rerouted the CZ over the D&RGW I eagerly anticipated my next trip where I could open the window on the Superliner cars. The safety culture changed from my trip in 1980. I was slow to catch on. I started off the day opening the window in my coach. When the attendant scolded me I moved to another car. I got scolded a second time. I continued the cat and mouse game for most of the day until mid-afternoon. 

Then the Onboard Service Chief sat me down and explained that the conductor had had enough of my shenanigans. He told me the next time I was caught opening the window I would be put off the train.

I was traveling by myself. I really enjoyed these Solo summer trips that my dad paid for with the All Aboard America fare. I was embarrassed that I had annoyed people whose jobs I admired. So that ended my days of Dutch door opening.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 9, 2021)

Ziv said:


> It may be a Federal requirement in certain places but here in eastern Maryland masks are pretty much a thing of the past. At the hardware store, grocery, three cafes, two parks, pool supply store and the library the masks were optional and rare. Wells Fargo bank was the only place masks were required. Harris Teeter grocery was about evenly divided between maskers and non-maskers but the rest were nearly mask-free.
> Which may be a bit early. Only 52% (that number was 45.2% 30 days ago) of the US population has gotten at least one jab and approximately 25% (?) have had Covid so maybe 64%’ish of the US has the antibodies needed…


The Federal mask requirement only applies to interstate transportation, airlines, buses, and Amtrak. Other mask requirements are local regulations, locally enforced. Here in Western Washington the state and local rules are now the fully vaccinated can go without masks. However, mask compliance always has been very high here, and most people remain masked, despite well over 40% of the over 16 population are now fully vaccinated (2shots + 2 weeks). Well over 60% have had their first dose.

You are conflating different things, an absolute Federal mask requirement that applies to a very, very limited range of things within Federal purview, interstate transportation, and general mask requirements which are under state police power and vary widely.


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## Barb Stout (Jun 9, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I wonder what Amtrak does if a passenger commits a crime in one state but the next stop is in another state?
> 
> For example, a passenger assaults a conductor after the eastbound Empire Builder leaves Wolf Point, Montana but before it reaches the South Dakota Border. If they kick the passenger off at Williston, South Dakota, I don't see how the local police in Williston would have any authority to detain the passenger for breaking a Montana state law - assuming (safely) that Montana has not issued an arrest warrant in that short a period of time.
> 
> ...


North Dakota, not South Dakota.

Amtrak trains and train stations are considered under the Federal system, so I too imagine any crime committed on Federal property would/could be prosecuted as Federal crimes. And local law enforcement usually cooperate in these matters. Leos and lawyers or other knowledgeable people can correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Exvalley (Jun 9, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> North Dakota, not South Dakota.


Whoops! Fixed it. 

My apologies to the good people of Williston!


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## John Bredin (Jun 9, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> The Federal mask requirement only applies to interstate transportation, airlines, buses, and Amtrak. Other mask requirements are local regulations, locally enforced. Here in Western Washington the state and local rules are now the fully vaccinated can go without masks. However, mask compliance always has been very high here, and most people remain masked, despite well over 40% of the over 16 population are now fully vaccinated (2shots + 2 weeks). Well over 60% have had their first dose.
> 
> You are conflating different things, an absolute Federal mask requirement that applies to a very, very limited range of things within Federal purview, interstate transportation, and general mask requirements which are under state police power and vary widely.


Generally agree with your posting, with one nitpick: federally-funded transit is also covered by the federal mask mandate, not just interstate transportation. Illinois is following the CDC guidance, mask required only for those not fully vaccinated (and where local ordinance or a landowner requires it), but Metra and CTA are requiring mask-wearing by all passengers.


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## Willbridge (Jun 10, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> I was a obnoxious teenage rail fan back in the 1980s. When I was in the 8th grade, 1980, I rode the Rio Grande Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake City and back with my Dad. I enjoyed hours in the dome car and in between the cars with the Dutch door open as we rolled through the canyons. The crew did not appear to mind. I saw other adult rail fans opening the Dutch door. I learned how to open the top half by watching them.
> 
> When Amtrak rerouted the CZ over the D&RGW I eagerly anticipated my next trip where I could open the window on the Superliner cars. The safety culture changed from my trip in 1980. I was slow to catch on. I started off the day opening the window in my coach. When the attendant scolded me I moved to another car. I got scolded a second time. I continued the cat and mouse game for most of the day until mid-afternoon.
> 
> ...



In the mid-1960's...


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## Everydaymatters (Jun 10, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> I was a obnoxious teenage rail fan back in the 1980s. When I was in the 8th grade, 1980, I rode the Rio Grande Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake City and back with my Dad. I enjoyed hours in the dome car and in between the cars with the Dutch door open as we rolled through the canyons. The crew did not appear to mind. I saw other adult rail fans opening the Dutch door. I learned how to open the top half by watching them.
> 
> When Amtrak rerouted the CZ over the D&RGW I eagerly anticipated my next trip where I could open the window on the Superliner cars. The safety culture changed from my trip in 1980. I was slow to catch on. I started off the day opening the window in my coach. When the attendant scolded me I moved to another car. I got scolded a second time. I continued the cat and mouse game for most of the day until mid-afternoon.
> 
> ...


This is a good example of why Amtrak should bring back the Onboard Service Chief. Just sayin'.


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## toddinde (Jun 10, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I wonder what Amtrak does if a passenger commits a crime in one state but the next stop is in another state?
> 
> For example, a passenger assaults a conductor after the eastbound Empire Builder leaves Wolf Point, Montana but before it reaches the North Dakota Border. If they kick the passenger off at Williston, North Dakota, I don't see how the local police in Williston would have any authority to detain the passenger for breaking a Montana state law - assuming (safely) that Montana has not issued an arrest warrant in that short a period of time.
> 
> ...


There is comity between states under the constitution. Law enforcement in one state absolutely can detain a person for a crime committed in another state. A short extradition hearing, and off they go. Very easy. Happens everyday.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 10, 2021)

The OBSC duties now fall to the conductor. On a trip about 10 years ago my senior citizen Dad came close to getting us kicked off of the Coast Starlight on a roundtrip from LAX to Seattle and back. I didn't help matters with my big mouth. The situation started when with the attendant in the PPC. On the trip to Seattle, he said nothing when we remained in the PPC during the wine tasting. My dad was obstinate and did not want to follow the announcements. A few other passengers remained too. I would have preferred to just go with the flow. But my father was insistent that we not leave, and at that point in my life I was tended to defer to him. 

This attendant was a bit over the top in his announcements, and he was brusque and wasn't the friendliest sort to begin with. On the return trip from Seattle he overheard my father making comments to me about his announcements. He retaliated by shagging us out of the PPC car at the wine tasting. There was nobody else in the car but us. As I got up to leave, I told him that I was going to write a letter to Amtrak about his treatment of us, and that his job would be on line the line. I talked loudly, but did not use profanity. I do not drink, nor does my father, so drinking was not a factor in our behavior. As we left the car I overheard the attendant paging the conductor to the PPC car to report our behavior. I knew then that we were could be kicked off the train. We were between Eugene and Chemult. I knew Chemult was an unstaffed stop. 

The conductor met with us at one end of the PPC car. Before we went up their, I told my dad to keep his mouth shut and not argue with the conductor. I explained that the conductors have to deal with lots of issues on this route, and that they might not be patient with us. I reminded him of the drunk people that had annoyed us in the diner. The conductor was calm and professional. He listened to our side, then explained that my threatening to write a letter to Amtrak would result in us being asked to stay out of the PPC for the rest of the trip. I asked about how to manage a dinner reservation that we had already made to for eating in the PPC. I suggested that we could eat in the diner to avoid any confrontation. The conductor facilitated this and we agreed to stay out of the PPC for the rest of the evening. 

When we returned to our rooms the SCA asked us what happened. I explained. The SCA told us the attendant in the PPC was not a regular member of this crew, and that he was not doing his job correctly nor did he handle are situation correctly. I thanked him and stated that we would just stay out of the PPC to avoid further confrontation and be put off the train. 

The word must have been spread to the rest of the crew. My father and I were treated well. The next day the SCA checked in with the attendant in the PPC. We were cleared to go back in. The SCA checked in with me several times and each time he made remarks letting me know he disagreed with how the situation was handled. I appreciated his support, but at that point my attitude was that if I behaved in such a manner as to need to meet with the conductor, I was already out of line. It was one of those situation where I thought that I knew better and should have done better.


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## Exvalley (Jun 10, 2021)

toddinde said:


> There is comity between states under the constitution. Law enforcement in one state absolutely can detain a person for a crime committed in another state. A short extradition hearing, and off they go. Very easy. Happens everyday.


Respectfully, that's not how comity works. This situation is covered, not by the Comity clause of the Constitution, but by the Extradition Clause, which is found in Article IV Section 2.

The actual procedure for extradition is found in federal law, 18 U.S.C. Section 3182, and state laws. Most states have adopted the Uniform Criminal Extradition Act which requires, before an arrest is made, a formal written demand for extradition that is accompanied by a copy of an indictment or an information supported by affidavit as well as a copy of any warrant or judgment of conviction. 

One exception is found in the Uniform Act on Fresh Pursuit, which allows officers from an adjacent state to arrest someone if they are in fresh pursuit of a subject who has committed a felony or DUI and crossed a state line after pursuit of the suspect was commenced. But that is not the case in the scenario that I gave.


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## Ziv (Jun 10, 2021)

I thought the part of my comment “It may be a Federal requirement in certain places but here in Eastern MD…” was pretty clearly stating that it was two different scenarios. As I said, it may be Federal requirement in certain places but here in my part of Maryland where the Federal rule doesn’t apply people are not wearing masks all that often.
And it might be too soon to throw away the mask since the percentage of people w the antibodies here in the US still might be too low for this to be safe. Or Covid may be done in the US.
YMMV.



zephyr17 said:


> The Federal mask requirement only applies to interstate transportation, airlines, buses, and Amtrak. Other mask requirements are local regulations, locally enforced. ….
> 
> You are conflating different things, an absolute Federal mask requirement that applies to a very, very limited range of things within Federal purview, interstate transportation, and general mask requirements which are under state police power and vary widely.


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## Oreius (Jul 23, 2021)

I’m reopening this. I read that airline passenger disobedience is up over 500% over 2019! Thousands of people have been banned from airlines (mostly temporarily, but some for life) for not wearing masks and/or assaulting other passengers or flight attendants. Can people get banned from Amtrak? The difference is that airlines are private corporations whereas Amtrak is owned by the Federal Government.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 23, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I’m reopening this. I read that airline passenger disobedience is up over 500% over 2019! Thousands of people have been banned from airlines (mostly temporarily, but some for life) for not wearing masks and/or assaulting other passengers or flight attendants. Can people get banned from Amtrak? The difference is that airlines are private corporations whereas Amtrak is owned by the Federal Government.


Yes, people can be banned from riding Amtrak for failing to follow the rules or refusing to comply with instructions. To the best of my knowledge Amtrak bans are not shared or coordinated other carriers but this may change in the future as threats and attacks on American staff continue to increase in frequency and severity. So far as I can tell most of this is down to people who refuse to remain masked and then start attacking staff and strangers when told they must comply.


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## OBS (Jul 23, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I’m reopening this. I read that airline passenger disobedience is up over 500% over 2019! Thousands of people have been banned from airlines (mostly temporarily, but some for life) for not wearing masks and/or assaulting other passengers or flight attendants. Can people get banned from Amtrak? The difference is that airlines are private corporations whereas Amtrak is owned by the Federal Government.


Yes, people have been banned from Amtrak.


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## Exvalley (Jul 23, 2021)

I take great offense when someone acts inappropriately enough to get banned from an airline.

However, if airlines and/or Amtrak are going to start sharing their ban list resulting in people being banned from all of the companies, it seems to me that there should be a time limit for the universal ban. I'd hate to think that someone who does something very stupid in their 20s would not be able to fly or ride the rails later in life. Maybe I am an optimist, but I would like to think that most people would learn from their mistake if they had to undergo a few years of a travel ban. If they don't... then I have no problem with a life-long ban.


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## flitcraft (Jul 23, 2021)

So far I don't think the airlines are sharing their ban lists, and it isn't clear that the bans are projected to be lifetime bans. The airlines have every financial incentive to just forget about them once the pandemic is in our rear view mirror.


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## Oreius (Jul 23, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> So far I don't think the airlines are sharing their ban lists, and it isn't clear that the bans are projected to be lifetime bans. The airlines have every financial incentive to just forget about them once the pandemic is in our rear view mirror.



I’m not sure-especially if you are a flight attendant who had your teeth knocked out by an unruly woman refusing the mask!


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## Oreius (Jul 23, 2021)

Just wear the mask. It is inconvenient and uncomfortable, but it’s not worth getting your undies in a bunch.


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## jis (Jul 23, 2021)

Individual airline bans are whatever the airline makes of it. The TSA/Federal bans are apparently for lifetime unless you manage to get a Redress number.


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## flitcraft (Jul 23, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I’m not sure-especially if you are a flight attendant who had your teeth knocked out by an unruly woman refusing the mask!


Well, when flight attendants start running airlines, those bans will stick!  My guess, completely uninformed, is that passengers whose misdeeds ended up in arrests will get long bans, those who just got ban cards will be flying again once all this is over.


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 24, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> Well, when flight attendants start running airlines, those bans will stick!  My guess, completely uninformed, is that passengers whose misdeeds ended up in arrests will get long bans, those who just got ban cards will be flying again once all this is over.



This is so true. The amount of misconduct I've seen just walking around the Charlotte airport is appalling. I've seen so many gate agents almost get into altercations because someone usually a middle aged white male got unruly and violent rapidly. What really scares me though is usually they still end up letting them get on the plane. If that's how they are going to act on the ground I can tell you I don't want them on my aircraft. 

What also irks me is mainline gets flex cuffs and ways to restrain them over on the regional side we get nothing but generally we get them after something earlier in the day on mainline irked them and they are just fuming ready to have their anger flash. 

I told that to one of my police officers down here in my home town and she taught me how to use both flex cuffs and regular handcuffs while I was watching Amtrak last night. Also where to purchase my own as well. First time I've ever handcuffed a police officer and probably the last time as well.


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## Oreius (Jul 24, 2021)

What this all comes down to is this: More people have become nasty and disrespectful since COVID-19 began. I’ve seen it here in PA in my town! Few people say “Hi” anymore, and crime in the major cities has skyrocketed. Why can’t people just respect each other? Respect is a two-way street. You must give it to get it back. Treat others as YOU would like to be treated. Goes a long way.


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## SubwayNut (Jul 24, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> This is so true. The amount of misconduct I've seen just walking around the Charlotte airport is appalling. I've seen so many gate agents almost get into altercations because someone usually a middle aged white male got unruly and violent rapidly. What really scares me though is usually they still end up letting them get on the plane. If that's how they are going to act on the ground I can tell you I don't want them on my aircraft.
> 
> What also irks me is mainline gets flex cuffs and ways to restrain them over on the regional side we get nothing but generally we get them after something earlier in the day on mainline irked them and they are just fuming ready to have their anger flash.
> 
> I told that to one of my police officers down here in my home town and she taught me how to use both flex cuffs and regular handcuffs while I was watching Amtrak last night. Also where to purchase my own as well. First time I've ever handcuffed a police officer and probably the last time as well.



That's ridiculous and I'm sorry about the lack of cuffs, especially since isn't PSA a wholly own subsidiary of American's Corportation? 

Also, are the gate agents who dispatch your flights PSA employees or American Employees in hubs like Charlotte?

I know in outstations like South Bend where I live they are from a contractor after the time my partner and I were involuntarily denied boarding on a SBN-CLT flight operated by PSA and I had to inform them of our rights to cash (a check) instead of a voucher, which had to be mailed to us because no one on staff knew how to use the American check inprinter. They spent some of the 2 hours time it took them to rebook us and get our compensation dealing with Americans internal system complaining how much worse it was for these types of issues compared to United's who's flights they also dispatched. I did file a DOT complaint against PSA (and not American, since it was a PSA operated flight) because of the gate agents blatant disregard to Federal rules on IDBs for not immediately giving us the paperwork with our rights to request cash instead of a voucher. (they gave us our paperwork as we left).


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 24, 2021)

SubwayNut said:


> That's ridiculous and I'm sorry about the lack of cuffs, especially since isn't PSA a wholly own subsidiary of American's Corportation?
> 
> Also, are the gate agents who dispatch your flights PSA employees or American Employees in hubs like Charlotte?
> 
> I know in outstations like South Bend where I live they are from a contractor after the time my partner and I were involuntarily denied boarding on a SBN-CLT flight operated by PSA and I had to inform them of our rights to cash (a check) instead of a voucher, which had to be mailed to us because no one on staff knew how to use the American check inprinter. They spent some of the 2 hours time it took them to rebook us and get our compensation dealing with Americans internal system complaining how much worse it was for these types of issues compared to United's who's flights they also dispatched. I did file a DOT complaint against PSA (and not American, since it was a PSA operated flight) because of the gate agents blatant disregard to Federal rules on IDBs for not immediately giving us the paperwork with our rights to request cash instead of a voucher. (they gave us our paperwork as we left).



Yes we are one of the three wholly owned regionals for AA. Our gate agents in Charlotte are actually Piedmont employees one of the other wholly owned regionals. I've become friends with a few of them which gets me better treatment from them actually. I'll probably go to Carowinds with some of them later this month too. 

In South Bend we probably use a contract firm like Swissport or one of the other ones. I haven't been to that station yet. I'm sorry to hear about that interaction with our agents. But yes it is really ludicrous that we get no way to defend ourselves on board with the same crazy passengers mainline has. I don't mind buying the stuff to protect myself but I do think it should be provided.


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## hlcteacher (Jul 24, 2021)

Why would you ride from Orlando to Tampa? That’s only 75 miles. Very little time to grab a cold one in the Lounge!
[/QUOTE]for me it would be the train, bus or walk, that is why


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## Palmland (Jul 24, 2021)

hlcteacher said:


> Why would you ride from Orlando to Tampa? That’s only 75 miles. Very little time to grab a cold one in the Lounge!


 I-4 is often a parking lot. One of the reasons the Atlanta Braves moved spring training to the Fort Myers area is trips to Tampa area from Their WDW training site often took 4 hours. Their announcers would often complain loudly about it.


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## Oreius (Jul 24, 2021)

hlcteacher said:


> Why would you ride from Orlando to Tampa? That’s only 75 miles. Very little time to grab a cold one in the Lounge!



Actually, this was my quote, but I don’t mind if it’s is shared. 

You do have a point there. I-4 is often very congested. Particularly around the corridor from Tampa to Lakeland, and then between Lake Buena Vista and Sanford. FDOT is working to upgrade the route through the Orlando area by adding tolled express lanes. In actuality, I-4 is one of the few original Interstates with future growth planned in advance. The route is capable of being upgraded to 5 lanes in each direction along its entire route. All of I-4 is at least three lanes in each direction.


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## SubwayNut (Jul 24, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> In South Bend we probably use a contract firm like Swissport or one of the other ones. I haven't been to that station yet. I'm sorry to hear about that interaction with our agents. But yes it is really ludicrous that we get no way to defend ourselves on board with the same crazy passengers mainline has. I don't mind buying the stuff to protect myself but I do think it should be provided.



Thanks for the inside tidbit about Charlotte operations!

As a train enthusiast I hope you make it to our little airport/railway station soon. You can actually see the South Shore Line platform from the ramp. Gate 9 is maybe 50 feet from the platform. I've watched (and photographed) the South Shore Line from Allegiant planes waiting for departure. Sadly American Eagle uses gate 3 that's on the other side of the terminal.


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## joelkfla (Jul 24, 2021)

Oreius said:


> Actually, this was my quote, but I don’t mind if it’s is shared.
> 
> You do have a point there. I-4 is often very congested. Particularly around the corridor from Tampa to Lakeland, and then between Lake Buena Vista and Sanford. FDOT is working to upgrade the route through the Orlando area by adding tolled express lanes. In actuality, I-4 is one of the few original Interstates with future growth planned in advance. The route is capable of being upgraded to 5 lanes in each direction along its entire route. All of I-4 is at least three lanes in each direction.


With or without rail in the median?


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 24, 2021)

SubwayNut said:


> Thanks for the inside tidbit about Charlotte operations!
> 
> As a train enthusiast I hope you make it to our little airport/railway station soon. You can actually see the South Shore Line platform from the ramp. Gate 9 is maybe 50 feet from the platform. I've watched (and photographed) the South Shore Line from Allegiant planes waiting for departure. Sadly American Eagle uses gate 3 that's on the other side of the terminal.



I want the South Bend overnight more so I can just railfan on the Chicago Line. Or take the South Shore for the first time into the city. I could be tempted for either one. Our overnight in Toledo is next to the Chicago Line. 

But back to the topic at hand yes passengers are getting worse by the day.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 25, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> I want the South Bend overnight more so I can just railfan on the Chicago Line. Or take the South Shore for the first time into the city. I could be tempted for either one. Our overnight in Toledo is next to the Chicago Line.
> 
> But back to the topic at hand yes passengers are getting worse by the day.


And it's gonna get worse as another Wave sweeps across the Country and the Crazies get Crazier and Crazier!☠


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## CTANut (Jul 25, 2021)

The Amtrak dragons need to be trained the same way that Etihad flight attendants are- in customer service, in order for America to get into training.



I had a SCA who was like one of the gate dragons. She would insist that you would do things her way only. At least she did not abuse the PA system. Was anyone else here on the Southwest Chief westbound departing from Chicago on 12/21/2020?


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 25, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I’m sure you’ve read the news about the lady who assaulted a flight attendant on a Southwest Airlines flight. Apparently, the unruly lady popped the attendant in the mouth, breaking two of her teeth. The lady and her 3 kids refused to wear a mask on the flight and was (supposedly) being defiant. She was charged with felony assault.
> Now, here’s my question. How does Amtrak deal with unruly passengers? I do know the Conductor is authorized to “throw someone off.” The Conductor is in charge of all onboard crew members. I also know Amtrak has a dedicated police force, primarily in the Northeast. Has anyone ever witnessed unruly behavior? Both Southwest Airlines and the FAA have reported an “explosion” of unruly passengers on flights.


My wife witnessed someone get taken off the train in Durham on his way to Charlotte. Then we got back on to grab his things. He did not want to wear a mask.

About two weeks ago another rider called a non-mask wearing out and the conductor was very nice but firm. She and her son masked up. They ended up getting off at Selma instead of Raleigh as her slip indicated above her seat.


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## dlagrua (Jul 25, 2021)

I am one who is very skeptical that masks work as advertised BUT I may be wrong about this. They may be somewhat helpful. If masks are required we will comply. Its really no big deal to slip one on and how anyone could make that big a deal of it is difficult to understand. We will be flying to AZ in a few weeks and are expected to mask up. The airline advises you in advance so does Amtrak, so if one so strongly objects there is a simple solution. Just don't accept the terms and stay home.


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## Ryan (Jul 25, 2021)

Yes. You continue to be wrong about the effect of masks.


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## Dakota 400 (Jul 25, 2021)

Oreius said:


> Respect is a two-way street. You must give it to get it back. Treat others as YOU would like to be treated. Goes a long way



Matthew 7:12 The Golden Rule

I wonder if there is any connection between what behaviors we are seeing in our society and the drop in Church attendance/membership.


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## neroden (Jul 25, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> Matthew 7:12 The Golden Rule
> 
> I wonder if there is any connection between what behaviors we are seeing in our society and the drop in Church attendance/membership.


Nope.


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## me_little_me (Jul 25, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> Matthew 7:12 The Golden Rule
> 
> I wonder if there is any connection between what behaviors we are seeing in our society and the drop in Church attendance/membership.


Do you have evidence of that?

Look at the late 1800s to the 1950s to see the worst in American treatment of other Americans in a "modern society" (not counting the previous slavery years).

And if you think politicians are any different, read a well-researched book or two about our founding fathers, Washington, Adams, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, etc. They put some of our worst ones to shame when it comes to NOT acting in the country's interest.


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## bms (Jul 25, 2021)

McLeansvilleAppFan said:


> My wife witnessed someone get taken off the train in Durham on his way to Charlotte. Then we got back on to grab his things. He did not want to wear a mask.
> 
> About two weeks ago another rider called a non-mask wearing out and the conductor was very nice but firm. She and her son masked up. They ended up getting off at Selma instead of Raleigh as her slip indicated above her seat.



Wow, I've rarely seen an Amtrak employee actually enforce the mask mandate. And I have over 100,000 Amtrak miles and never saw someone get put off the train.


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## dlagrua (Jul 26, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Yes. You continue to be wrong about the effect of masks.


Over 50 nurses at the hospital where my wife is employed all wore masks and came down with the virus. That evidence makes me skeptical of their effectiveness but all recovered. I do believe that masks are quite effective against bacteria.


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## jis (Jul 26, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> Over 50 nurses at the hospital where my wife is employed all wore masks and came down with the virus. That evidence makes me skeptical of their effectiveness but all recovered. I do believe that masks are quite effective against bacteria.


As compared to how many that did not get infected? Masks are not a guaranteed protection, but they are a protection nonetheless.

One could also say that 9,000 vaccinated people got infected, but does it follow from that that vaccines are ineffective and do not work?


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## davejann (Jul 26, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> Over 50 nurses at the hospital where my wife is employed all wore masks and came down with the virus. That evidence makes me skeptical of their effectiveness but all recovered. I do believe that masks are quite effective against bacteria.


And droplets about the same size as a bacterium carrying viruses.


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## neroden (Jul 26, 2021)

A hospital is an exceptionally dangerous location. Nurses are exposed to a massive amount of Covid-19 there, from all the infected patients. Masks work very well, but they aren't perfect; air can slip around the edges. If you're in a Covid hotspot like a hospital, it's extremely hard to protect yourself.

The masks work best if *the infected people wear them*, and unfortunately, I suspect the patients coming into the hospital weren't doing so before walking in the door. Even if they were, they have to take their masks off for various procedures including testing and treatment. Extremely dangerous situation for the nurses, being very close to lots of unmasked people who have Covid-19.


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## Qapla (Jul 26, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> Over 50 nurses at the hospital where my wife is employed all wore masks and came down with the virus



How many nurses work at this hospital? If there are only 55 nurses, that is a very high percentage ... however, if there are 500 nurses, it is only 10% who got infected in a C-19 rich environment.

In most public places where masks had been worn the concentration of infected people was nowhere near the number of infected people in a hospital full of C-19 cases. The shear number of C-19 cases in one area makes it difficult for even the most extreme protection to be 100% effective.

The fact that cases have risen in areas where masks were discarded as soon as people were told they were no longer "required" even though they remained "recommended" should indicate that masks do offer some protection - and some is far better than none.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 26, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> Over 50 nurses at the hospital where my wife is employed all wore masks and came down with the virus. That evidence makes me skeptical of their effectiveness but all recovered. I do believe that masks are quite effective against bacteria.


Did these nurses wear masks anywhere besides in the hospital?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 26, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> Over 50 nurses at the hospital where my wife is employed all wore masks and came down with the virus. That evidence makes me skeptical of their effectiveness but all recovered. I do believe that masks are quite effective against bacteria.


Then explain why people are reporting fewer colds and flus this past 1-1/2 years. Those are caused by viruses, you know.


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## jis (Jul 26, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Then explain why people are reporting fewer colds and flus this past 1-1/2 years. Those are caused by viruses, you know.


Didn't you know? Those are fatter viruses  COVID viruses are the special thin viruses


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Didn't you know? Those are fatter viruses  COVID viruses are the special thin viruses


Don't you know the Corona Virus only attacks Democrats, Infidels,Agnostics and Atheists!


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## me_little_me (Jul 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Didn't you know? Those are fatter viruses  COVID viruses are the special thin viruses


Wow! Great justification for a large ice cream sundae with lots of hot fudge, hot caramel, chocolate bunnies and Santas, and of course, sprinkles, on it. Better than the vaccine for avoiding skinny!


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## Oreius (Jul 26, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> With or without rail in the median?



I believe without rail.


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## SaharaKumlu (Jul 27, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I’m sure you’ve read the news about the lady who assaulted a flight attendant on a Southwest Airlines flight. Apparently, the unruly lady popped the attendant in the mouth, breaking two of her teeth. The lady and her 3 kids refused to wear a mask on the flight and was (supposedly) being defiant. She was charged with felony assault.
> Now, here’s my question. How does Amtrak deal with unruly passengers? I do know the Conductor is authorized to “throw someone off.” The Conductor is in charge of all onboard crew members. I also know Amtrak has a dedicated police force, primarily in the Northeast. Has anyone ever witnessed unruly behavior? Both Southwest Airlines and the FAA have reported an “explosion” of unruly passengers on flights.


She wasn't a "lady"!


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 27, 2021)

SaharaKumlu said:


> She wasn't a "lady"!


Ive seen lots of unruly Passengers thrown off Amtrak Trains, mostly for Smoking,Being intoxicated, No Tcket and for Mental problems,
but only a handful were actually turned over to LE when the Train was stopped.

Twice I have seen Passengers help Amtrak Crews subdue passengers that had assaulted someone on the train, and once wben caught stealing.in the Sleepers.

As you said, Amtrak Police are very seldom seen on Trains except in the NEC, but I did see one on the Texas Eagle from Dallas to Austin on my last trip..


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## PaTrainFan (Jul 27, 2021)

No excusing any behavior that warrants being tossed from a train but I often wonder whatever happens to these people when dumped in the middle of nowhere (in many instances).


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 27, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> As you said, Amtrak Police are very seldom seen on Trains except in the NEC, but I did see one on the Texas Eagle from Dallas to Austin on my last trip..


I took the Carolinian from Raleigh to Greensboro last fall. We were on the platform for a few minutes and there was a LEO on the platform. I don't remember if this was Raleigh city police or Amtrak. I am sure it was not a county deputy sheriff. (I wonder if I posted about that last fall.) I think that is the first time I ever noticed an LEO around Amrak stations or trains in North Carolina. I think we was just hanging out and I want to say he was indeed Amtrak Police, but the memory is a bit fuzzy.

An Amtrak police walked through asking if all were OK after the derailment under Washington Union Station, but I am sure the LEO was only on the train after the derail and we were a 100 meters or so from the platform. I assume he jumped on the Crescent after we jumped a switch.


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 27, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> No excusing any behavior that warrants being tossed from a train but I often wonder whatever happens to these people when dumped in the middle of nowhere (in many instances).


In the case of my wife the man was going on about his net worth vs the pay of the Amtrak employees. It would seem he would be able to pay for a cab from Durham to Charlotte. Of course, maybe he was not as well off. 

I guess there are taxi options, bus lines, or more than likely you are calling someone in the destination city to come get you. If that is too far away then it might be you head back home with some of the options. 

All I can say is that I am sure the threshold is rather high to be tossed off with at least one if not two warnings to adjust the behavior. I can simultaneously feel bad for the people being tossed AND be glad they are off the train.


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## kdoherty (Jul 28, 2021)

I've not been on the train (Lakeshore Limited) to witness poor behavior, but in the Springfield, MA stop where I some times would board there would be local law enforcement escorting passengers off the train to some unknown to me location. Maybe they were taken into custody, or maybe they were just brought to a bus stop, I'm not sure.


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## ms garrison (Jul 28, 2021)

On the Zephyr a few years ago there was a guy in the observation car " entertaining" some other passengers with his exploits in the last places he had been living. Most referring to when he was doing some illegal drug transactions . Next afternoon he was missing. People sitting near him in coach said police got on the train late that night and took him off in handcuffs. Pays to keep you business to yourself . lol


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 28, 2021)

kdoherty said:


> I've not been on the train (Lakeshore Limited) to witness poor behavior, but in the Springfield, MA stop where I some times would board there would be local law enforcement escorting passengers off the train to some unknown to me location. Maybe they were taken into custody, or maybe they were just brought to a bus stop, I'm not sure.


My wife and I took the Carolinian last month to visit a daughter in Richmond. She texted us about 4 police cars in the parking lot and the police ended up on the platform. We had a free pass from the Amtrak Credit card so we took the saving and went business class. Maybe something was going on in coach class but I did not see anything to be a concern. Maybe the police were tipped off someone was on the train and it had nothing to do with on-train behavior. The platform was packed with those getting on and off the train so I am not sure if the person slipped by the police or what . The train was late so we walked around the station and straight to the car. I never heard anything on the news and finding a local paper was not so easy that I walked by one to just grab and pay.


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## Oreius (Jul 28, 2021)

Unfortunately, the issues with unruly passengers on trains, planes, and even automobiles  will only continue for the foreseeable future unfortunately. Did you see the CDC is now “recommending” even vaccinated people wear masks in areas of high Covid-19 activity? There is no doubt the mask mandates on travel will be extended beyond 9/13…


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## Kat314159 (Jul 28, 2021)

The only time I've seen someone put off the train it was due to her "service" dog's behavior. The conductor made it very clear that it was only the dog that had to go. At first it was just barking, and the conductor said if it didn't quiet down it would need to get off at the next stop. The service dog handler was somewhat belligerent towards the conductor. The dog snapped at someone (but didn't make contact) in front of a Car Attendant. She and the dog were put off the train at the next stop with the conductors admonishment that she was lucky we were in an area of WV without many level crossings. He should be putting her off in the middle of nowhere to local law enforcement there. She was received by LE at the next station stop but they didn't appear to arrest her. I was on the Capital Limited and very thankful to have some peace and quiet after they got out.


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## daybeers (Jul 28, 2021)

kdoherty said:


> I've not been on the train (Lakeshore Limited) to witness poor behavior, but in the Springfield, MA stop where I some times would board there would be local law enforcement escorting passengers off the train to some unknown to me location. Maybe they were taken into custody, or maybe they were just brought to a bus stop, I'm not sure.


Amtrak Police has an office in Springfield, MA, so maybe that's where they were taken.


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## jis (Jul 28, 2021)

The most dramatic put off the train event that I witnessed was on the SWC when a stowaway was forcibly removed by LEOs from a Roomette next to mine at a grade crossing in the middle of nowhere.

Don't know much detail since the LEO asked me to stay in my Roomette and lock the door.


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## JayPea (Jul 28, 2021)

The only time I personally witnessed someone getting booted off Amtrak was on the Portland half of the Empire Builder. Someone had stowed away onto the train at Vancouver and locked himself in a bathroom. I was in coach and had gone downstairs to use the bathroom. The car attendant and conductor were gathered by a door and they quietly told me to go to the other car as there was a stowaway in the bathroom and didn't want to spook him. I don't know where he intended to go but he only got as far as the next stop, Bingen-White Salmon, before being escorted off the train into the waiting arms of some of Klickitat County's finest. I think he found out it wasn't worth the trouble of sneaking on Amtrak.


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## Oreius (Aug 6, 2021)

I visited Hersheypark last week, and I saw these signs posted everywhere around the park. I think it’s very sad, but shows the world seems to have become more dangerous.


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## jis (Aug 6, 2021)

Back in the SFZ days I witnessed an incident at Green River WY where an alleged "lady of the night" was taken off the train by LEOs for allegedly providing her services on the train. Weird stuff goes on in some of these trains I suppose.


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## Cal (Aug 7, 2021)

jis said:


> The most dramatic put off the train event that I witnessed was on the SWC when a stowaway was forcibly removed by LEOs from a Roomette next to mine at a grade crossing in the middle of nowhere.


I wonder where the nearest law enforcement were stationed and how long it took them to get there, must’ve been pretty far. I wonder if they ever have difficulties finding it.


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## WICT106 (Aug 8, 2021)

Once during the early- to mid- 2000s, when I boarded the Empire Builder in Wisconsin. A couple was occupying one of the roomettes opposite me. They had shut their door, and a couple of minutes later, there was some loud thumping, or pounding. This thumping / pounding went on for several more minutes, stopping only when one of the train crew showed up. The couple were then escorted off of the train, into the custody of the local Sheriff's deputies ( I think, at either the Dells, or at Tomah ). It turns out that they had used some drugs, and proceeded to have a violent altercation within the roomette ( the violence was, obviously, the thumping / pounding noise ).


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## flitcraft (Aug 8, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I visited Hersheypark last week, and I saw these signs posted everywhere around the park. I think it’s very sad, but shows the world seems to have become more dangerous.


Central PA is more like Kentucky culturally than like Philly or Pittsburgh. My daughter and her family live about five miles from Hershey Park, and know that all too well. A couple of days ago, an elderly woman in their apartment complex approached my son-in-law and eight year old granddaughter, got right up in her face and screamed at her, "Why are you wearing a mask? Are you stupid??" Betcha Hersheypark has had similar episodes. 

Obligatory 'misbehavior (almost) on a train' story: Seen in the Before Times at King St. Station in Seattle: Young guy semi-furtively smoking pot in the station, then arguing with the LEO that he needed to smoke it up before getting on the train. Turns out that argument failed and he was escorted out of the station...


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## moosejunky99 (Aug 8, 2021)

Someone opened a door/window on my first amtrak train.. train stopped at Raton, NM and took him off the train.. wait 24hrs at least for next train..


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## PaTrainFan (Aug 8, 2021)

There's a reason it's known by some as Pennsyltucky.



flitcraft said:


> Central PA is more like Kentucky culturally than like Philly or Pittsburgh. My daughter and her family live about five miles from Hershey Park, and know that all too well. A couple of days ago, an elderly woman in their apartment complex approached my son-in-law and eight year old granddaughter, got right up in her face and screamed at her, "Why are you wearing a mask? Are you stupid??" Betcha Hersheypark has had similar episodes.
> 
> Obligatory 'misbehavior (almost) on a train' story: Seen in the Before Times at King St. Station in Seattle: Young guy semi-furtively smoking pot in the station, then arguing with the LEO that he needed to smoke it up before getting on the train. Turns out that argument failed and he was escorted out of the station...


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## Oreius (Aug 8, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> There's a reason it's known by some as Pennsyltucky.



Lebanon County, where I live, is a small but tough little county. In May 2020, we opened our businesses and ended the lockdowns imposed by the governor “before he said so!” We are Pennsylvania’s COVID-19 Champs—the last county to “officially” be taken out of lockdown!


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 8, 2021)

Oreius said:


> Lebanon County, where I live, is a small but tough little county. In May 2020, we opened our businesses and ended the lockdowns imposed by the governor “before he said so!” We are Pennsylvania’s COVID-19 Champs—the last county to “officially” be taken out of lockdown!


Doesn't sound like much to be proud about!


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## Barb Stout (Aug 9, 2021)

Oreius said:


> I visited Hersheypark last week, and I saw these signs posted everywhere around the park. I think it’s very sad, but shows the world seems to have become more dangerous.


I can't read the sign: too blurry. What does it say?


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 9, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> I can't read the sign: too blurry. What does it say?


Basically it says Be Kind


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## Oreius (Aug 9, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Doesn't sound like much to be proud about!



I’m indifferent.


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## basketmaker (Aug 12, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> If I'm not mistaken Local LE have no jurisdiction on Federal Property.
> 
> Every time I've seen someone put off a Train ,which is many times in 50 years of riding, the only LE Officers I've seen board a Train are Amtrak Police, or Federal Agents.
> 
> All the times Ive observed de-trained passengers being turned over to Local LE Officers occurred off the Train.


Local LEO do board Amtrak trains! A few years ago I booked a quick ride for fun and relaxation from FMG to EMY and back in a roomette. The return the following day. Well that apparently triggers certain computers like Amtrak, NCIS and DEA to that could be a drug/money mule type of itinerary. Well, shortly out of RNO on #5 a gentleman came up behind me as I was taking pics in the lounge car. There was another gentleman with him. Both dressed in t-shirts and shorts. The first guy bent over and quietly ask me if I was Karl which I of course said yes. He raised the bottom of his t-shirt to expose a Reno Police Department badge. I thought that I may have taken a picture or several maybe on the RNO platform of some criminal activity. He explained to me why he was on the train and that was he and his colleagues were part of the Reno PD Drug Interdiction Task Force. And that my itinerary had been flagged. Nicely ask if I would allow them to check my baggage and if could pat me down. I said absolutely and to follow me to the trans/dorm #24 at the front of the train. He and the other officer followed me to my room. They waited until we got there and did a normal frisk of me. Then ask if they could go through my luggage which was fine with me. Only had a small bag and camera bag. They checked it and said thank you. I said no thank you (I've worn "Blue Lives Matter" bracelet for several years) and that I sincerely appreciate what they do. I did ask him if they did this every day and how far do they ride? He said they go out to Truckee and then back on #6 maybe once or twice a week. I did notice that the other two officers did apparently pinch a couple of young men as they escorted them off the train at TRU. Guess is they maybe had some weed on their person. Some these days would be all up in arms for being "profiled" but I think it is a great tool for law enforcement! Gotta say this was one of the best and most memorable Amtrak excursions. Loved it.


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## basketmaker (Aug 12, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I take great offense when someone acts inappropriately enough to get banned from an airline.
> 
> However, if airlines and/or Amtrak are going to start sharing their ban list resulting in people being banned from all of the companies, it seems to me that there should be a time limit for the universal ban. I'd hate to think that someone who does something very stupid in their 20s would not be able to fly or ride the rails later in life. Maybe I am an optimist, but I would like to think that most people would learn from their mistake if they had to undergo a few years of a travel ban. If they don't... then I have no problem with a life-long ban.


Back in the early '70s there was no such thing as a ban travel list on the airlines. I was working the ticket counter for a regional airline (PBA) in Miami. A "gentle"man came up to my counter stating he was on my 2:15 flight. Well it was 2:20 and the flight was already in the air. I apologized and explained to him that he had missed the flight. But that I would be happy to accommodate him on my next flight to Naples at 5:30. Well the tirade began! I did my derndest to get him to calm down but the screaming and yelling continued. It escalated and he finally yelled "if I am not on the 2:15 flight he was coming over the counter and kick my ass". That was enough for me. Picked up the terminal interphone and called the airport police. Within seconds two Dade County Public Safety (now Miami-Dade Police) were standing behind him and he never saw them. Well he raised his hands in a threatening manner and before he knew what hit him he was cuffed. The officers kindly escorted the gentleman off to jail to chill out. I spoke with one of the officers a couple days later and found that the guy had a long history of assault (both verbal and physical). Seven arrests over the last few years and all of them were involving airline ticket counter situations. Some people have some major anger issues!


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## MARC Rider (Aug 12, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> Local LEO do board Amtrak trains! A few years ago I booked a quick ride for fun and relaxation from FMG to EMY and back in a roomette. The return the following day. Well that apparently triggers certain computers like Amtrak, NCIS and DEA to that could be a drug/money mule type of itinerary. Well, shortly out of RNO on #5 a gentleman came up behind me as I was taking pics in the lounge car. There was another gentleman with him. Both dressed in t-shirts and shorts. The first guy bent over and quietly ask me if I was Karl which I of course said yes. He raised the bottom of his t-shirt to expose a Reno Police Department badge. I thought that I may have taken a picture or several maybe on the RNO platform of some criminal activity. He explained to me why he was on the train and that was he and his colleagues were part of the Reno PD Drug Interdiction Task Force. And that my itinerary had been flagged. Nicely ask if I would allow them to check my baggage and if could pat me down. I said absolutely and to follow me to the trans/dorm #24 at the front of the train. He and the other officer followed me to my room. They waited until we got there and did a normal frisk of me. Then ask if they could go through my luggage which was fine with me. Only had a small bag and camera bag. They checked it and said thank you. I said no thank you (I've worn "Blue Lives Matter" bracelet for several years) and that I sincerely appreciate what they do. I did ask him if they did this every day and how far do they ride? He said they go out to Truckee and then back on #6 maybe once or twice a week. I did notice that the other two officers did apparently pinch a couple of young men as they escorted them off the train at TRU. Guess is they maybe had some weed on their person. Some these days would be all up in arms for being "profiled" but I think it is a great tool for law enforcement! Gotta say this was one of the best and most memorable Amtrak excursions. Loved it.


It might be a great tool for a limited number of serious crimes, but it seems like overkill to do this just to nail a few poor schlubs for possession of weed, or even low-level trafficking. This is especially true if it's the Reno PD and they're searching people who are just riding through the city and not getting off and actually being in the city. There was a reason why the Founders of our country put the Fourth Amendment in the Constitution, and it really pains me that the courts have essentially eviscerated it.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 12, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> Local LEO do board Amtrak trains!



True. I was once riding to Virginia, and while we were sitting in DC changing locomotives, two plainclothes gentlemen from the DC Police asked me if a bag in the overhead luggage rack was mine. I said no (because it wasn't), and that seemed to be the end of that, at least for me. Never figured out what they were doing.


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## Night Ranger (Aug 12, 2021)

For several years now, I have referred to the 4th Amendment as the 4th Suggestion because that is what it has become.


MARC Rider said:


> It might be a great tool for a limited number of serious crimes, but it seems like overkill to do this just to nail a few poor schlubs for possession of weed, or even low-level trafficking. This is especially true if it's the Reno PD and they're searching people who are just riding through the city and not getting off and actually being in the city. There was a reason why the Founders of our country put the Fourth Amendment in the Constitution, and it really pains me that the courts have essentially eviscerated it.


For several years now, I have been referring to the 4th Amendment as the "4th Suggestion."


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## Eric in East County (Aug 13, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> Local LEO do board Amtrak trains! A few years ago I booked a quick ride for fun and relaxation from FMG to EMY and back in a roomette. The return the following day. Well that apparently triggers certain computers like Amtrak, NCIS and DEA to that could be a drug/money mule type of itinerary. Well, shortly out of RNO on #5 a gentleman came up behind me as I was taking pics in the lounge car. There was another gentleman with him. Both dressed in t-shirts and shorts. The first guy bent over and quietly ask me if I was Karl which I of course said yes. He raised the bottom of his t-shirt to expose a Reno Police Department badge. I thought that I may have taken a picture or several maybe on the RNO platform of some criminal activity. He explained to me why he was on the train and that was he and his colleagues were part of the Reno PD Drug Interdiction Task Force. And that my itinerary had been flagged. Nicely ask if I would allow them to check my baggage and if could pat me down. I said absolutely and to follow me to the trans/dorm #24 at the front of the train. He and the other officer followed me to my room. They waited until we got there and did a normal frisk of me. Then ask if they could go through my luggage which was fine with me. Only had a small bag and camera bag. They checked it and said thank you. I said no thank you (I've worn "Blue Lives Matter" bracelet for several years) and that I sincerely appreciate what they do. I did ask him if they did this every day and how far do they ride? He said they go out to Truckee and then back on #6 maybe once or twice a week. I did notice that the other two officers did apparently pinch a couple of young men as they escorted them off the train at TRU. Guess is they maybe had some weed on their person. Some these days would be all up in arms for being "profiled" but I think it is a great tool for law enforcement! Gotta say this was one of the best and most memorable Amtrak excursions. Loved it.



You certainly did the right thing by cooperating fully with the two officers, who appeared to have conducted themselves in a professional manner. 

Eric & Pat


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## basketmaker (Aug 13, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> You certainly did the right thing by cooperating fully with the two officers, who appeared to have conducted themselves in a professional manner.
> 
> Eric & Pat


Absolutely.


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## Steve4031 (Aug 13, 2021)

I did a similar trip but only got questioned. It was almost the exact experience that Basketmaker had. The officers were somewhat brusque with me. I remained calm because I didn’t do anything wrong. One of them asked if he had talked to me before. I told him no. It was a strange experience.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 15, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> You certainly did the right thing by cooperating fully with the two officers, who appeared to have conducted themselves in a professional manner.
> 
> Eric & Pat


It's not the officers, who, indeed may have been may have been conducting themselves professionally. The real problem is our political leadership and the judges who have interpreted the law to the point that this flimsy pretext is enough to justify police questioning and inspection of luggage of people with the implied threat of fairly serious practical, if not legal, consequences (getting removed from the train) if one doesn't comply. The risk of letting a few drug couriers through is simply not enough of an immediate threat to justify this.

As a citizen, I really don't care if drug couriers ride an Amtrak train, as long as they are behaving themselves. While it might be proper for the police to try to intercept them, they need to have more evidence than a "suspicious" ticket booking to justify questioning and inspecting the luggage of people who are not causing any trouble at that time. As I said, there was a reason why the Founders of our country included the Fourth Amendment into the Constitution. It's terrible that our leaders (and the citizenry) have tolerated what is essentially a backdoor repeal of this amendment.


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## PVD (Aug 15, 2021)

The travesty that civil asset forfeiture has become is perhaps the most egregious part of this.


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## Eric in East County (Aug 15, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> It's not the officers, who, indeed may have been may have been conducting themselves professionally. The real problem is our political leadership and the judges who have interpreted the law to the point that this flimsy pretext is enough to justify police questioning and inspection of luggage of people with the implied threat of fairly serious practical, if not legal, consequences (getting removed from the train) if one doesn't comply. The risk of letting a few drug couriers through is simply not enough of an immediate threat to justify this.
> 
> As a citizen, I really don't care if drug couriers ride an Amtrak train, as long as they are behaving themselves. While it might be proper for the police to try to intercept them, they need to have more evidence than a "suspicious" ticket booking to justify questioning and inspecting the luggage of people who are not causing any trouble at that time. As I said, there was a reason why the Founders of our country included the Fourth Amendment into the Constitution. It's terrible that our leaders (and the citizenry) have tolerated what is essentially a backdoor repeal of this amendment.


Back in the mid to late 1960s when we were in college, a popular slogan was _“Question Authority.”_ Even today, there are some who argue that Government policy that require *all* passengers to wear a mask while riding on an Amtrak train might also be a violation of their Constitutional rights.

During our recent long-distance train trip, we did the right thing by wearing our masks. Had we been approached by law enforcement agents who asked to inspect our luggage, we would also have complied without protest. We’ll leave it up to the legal scholars as to whether or not or our Constitutional rights were violated. We just wanted to ride the train.


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## basketmaker (Aug 15, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> It's not the officers, who, indeed may have been may have been conducting themselves professionally. The real problem is our political leadership and the judges who have interpreted the law to the point that this flimsy pretext is enough to justify police questioning and inspection of luggage of people with the implied threat of fairly serious practical, if not legal, consequences (getting removed from the train) if one doesn't comply. The risk of letting a few drug couriers through is simply not enough of an immediate threat to justify this.
> 
> As a citizen, I really don't care if drug couriers ride an Amtrak train, as long as they are behaving themselves. While it might be proper for the police to try to intercept them, they need to have more evidence than a "suspicious" ticket booking to justify questioning and inspecting the luggage of people who are not causing any trouble at that time. As I said, there was a reason why the Founders of our country included the Fourth Amendment into the Constitution. It's terrible that our leaders (and the citizenry) have tolerated what is essentially a backdoor repeal of this amendment.


In favor of it 100%. If they catch a single a single courier/criminal and he/she goes away for a long time it is worth it. Profiling and stop and frisk works!


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## MARC Rider (Aug 15, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> Back in the mid to late 1960s when we were in college, a popular slogan was _“Question Authority.”_ Even today, there are some who argue that Government policy that require *all* passengers to wear a mask while riding on an Amtrak train might also be a violation of their Constitutional rights.
> 
> During our recent long-distance train trip, we did the right thing by wearing our masks. Had we been approached by law enforcement agents who asked to inspect our luggage, we would also have complied without protest. We’ll leave it up to the legal scholars as to whether or not or our Constitutional rights were violated. We just wanted to ride the train.



Being forced to wear a mask is a whole to different than being questioned by the police and having your personal belongings searched without good reason. Wearing a mask is an easy-to-do public health measure that has been shown by scientific observation to slow the spread of an epidemic disease, and not wearing one is pretty obvious and doesn't require a search of person or possessions. Further, I doubt that locking all up the small time drug couriers and even small-time traffickers does much to stem the drug abuse problem. In fact, it seems that even locking up the drug dealing "kingpins" doesn't do much to reduce drug abuse. All it does is cost the taxpayers lots of money to fund prisons that don't rehabilitate and the salaries of unneeded police officers who do their darndest to nail people for something so that their supervisors will think they're being productive. The fight against drug abuse should be led my medical workers and social workers, not police officers.

Oh yes, if I take a train trip and was asked by a cop if he could inspect my luggage, I'd let him, of course. I know a police state when I see it, and there's no point in trying to be some sort of libertarian "hero" over an issue like that.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 15, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> Back in the mid to late 1960s when we were in college, a popular slogan was _“Question Authority.”_



Yeah, I was around back then, too. "Question Authority" is not the same as "Reject all Authority," and it never was, even to the radical student activists.


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## Dakota 400 (Aug 15, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> Had we been approached by law enforcement agents who asked to inspect our luggage, we would also have complied without protest.



My opinion: Many of the serious issues that have taken place between the police and citizens are due to the lack of respect that ought to be afforded to "authority figures" whomever they may be. If one is stopped by a policeman/woman and asked to do/produce whatever: _do it!_ When one decides to "debate"the issue or refuse to comply with the lawful request of the officer, that's when problems can start that has led to the very sad and needless results that we have witnessed in recent years.


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## hlcteacher (Aug 16, 2021)

no warrant? they are not touching me, mine, or my possessions..stop and frisk for no reason other than "they think"...nope, nope


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## me_little_me (Aug 16, 2021)

hlcteacher said:


> no warrant? they are not touching me, mine, or my possessions..stop and frisk for no reason other than "they think"...nope, nope


You know they will retaliate against you by detaining you until they find a compliant judge to issue one. Easy for them since they know the compliant ones. Now, if they were held accountable, they would do less of that.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 16, 2021)

And detaining you means your train continues on without you.

I know the principled thing might be to stand on your rights. But for me, I'd rather remain onboard. So, yeah, I'd consent to search.


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## JoeBas (Aug 17, 2021)

Respect is not given. It is earned, and lost, through actions.


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## Eric in East County (Aug 17, 2021)

One of the reasons that we refuse to fly is because of the many inconveniences and indignities associated with having to undergo TSA screenings before being allowed to board.

Within the TSA bureaucracy there are probably those who would welcome TSA’s authority being broadened to include screening passengers boarding Amtrak trains. Although doing so might sound highly impractical, when did that stop the Government from implementing any new policy?

Should this ever happen (God forbid) will you submit meekly to these screenings like airline passengers do, or will you attempt to resist them?


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## Nick Farr (Aug 17, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> Within the TSA bureaucracy there are probably those who would welcome TSA’s authority being broadened to include screening passengers boarding Amtrak trains.



This would be impossible to implement and provide very little added benefit. TSA already has some jurisdiction over train safety but they'd never want a headache like trying to make trains and platforms an entirely sterile area.

The largest group of LD travelers are probably people who can't or won't fly for whatever reason, and TSA is often a lot of that reason.

Planes can wreak huge amounts of destruction if hijacked. Trains can't really do a whole lot of damage, they're much harder to hijack AND you can call in support when you need it on the ground.


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## Eric in East County (Aug 17, 2021)

While we agree that doing TSA screenings of Amtrak passengers appears almost impossible to implement, all it would take is some high-profile event to occur such as the discovery of a WMD onboard an Amtrak train to bring about drastic changes to how we travel by train.


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## toddinde (Aug 18, 2021)

railiner said:


> Ejecting someone in the middle of nowhere, with no shelter or other accommodation available, is prohibited by Company regulation's, as it could subject the Company to high liability. If the perpetrator's behavior was so egregious to warrant this extreme measure, the train would have to wait at the scene until law enforcement arrived, at least.


That has always been the rule from my old Consolidated Rules book.


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## toddinde (Aug 18, 2021)

cirdan said:


> so am I .
> 
> if somebody is inebriated with alcohol and then just dumped somewhere hours or even days from any place they could get food or assistance, and something happens to them , Amtrak might well risk being charged in some way . So they would make sure there is somebody to take custody .
> 
> No matter how awful their previous behavior .


It would be a very viable lawsuit. But the rules don’t allow for it, so I’m sure they’re more careful than that.


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## toddinde (Aug 18, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I wonder what Amtrak does if a passenger commits a crime in one state but the next stop is in another state?
> 
> For example, a passenger assaults a conductor after the eastbound Empire Builder leaves Wolf Point, Montana but before it reaches the North Dakota Border. If they kick the passenger off at Williston, North Dakota, I don't see how the local police in Williston would have any authority to detain the passenger for breaking a Montana state law - assuming (safely) that Montana has not issued an arrest warrant in that short a period of time.
> 
> ...


There is comity between states. Extradition is used all the time. It’s not an issue.


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## Dakota 400 (Aug 18, 2021)

AFS1970 said:


> Except there were reports a few years ago about TSA or Customs picking every tenth person



Flying a few days after 9/11, I experienced this by the airline when I checked in. Except, it was every third person. Each piece of luggage had to be opened in the lobby of DAY and was thoroughly examined, messing up my nicely packed clothes in the process.

One year later, flying from LAX and late arriving at the gate, I was the chosen one to be re-examined at the gate just before boarding my flight. Only had one carry-on and its contents were thoroughly  examined, including opening some of my 35 mm film canisters to see what was in them! Literally, I was the last one on the plane with the door being closed before I even got to my seat.


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## JoeBas (Aug 18, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> A legitimate authority figure ought to be respected until, as you say, they loose that respect through their actions.



And to tie this back to the original thread, if a LEO threatens me with a hassle, delay, or any other "Beat the rap but not the ride" bull for properly asserting my 4th amendment rights... they lost any respect by their actions.


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## Eric in East County (Aug 18, 2021)

Are we in agreement that the conductor of an Amtrak train is entitled to our respect and whatever he or she says goes?


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## zephyr17 (Aug 18, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> Are we in agreement that the conductor of an Amtrak train is entitled to our respect and what he says goes?


Yes, although a few suffer from a little tin god complex. In any case, they have the authority to boot you off, so that has to be factored in.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 19, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> Are we in agreement that the conductor of an Amtrak train is entitled to our respect and what he says goes?



I think all of us agree that we're obligated to follow their instructions.

Maybe it's semantics, but I don't believe anyone is entitled to automatic respect. However, based on my experiences with Amtrak conductors, they're probably the closest I ever come to automatic respect having earned it as a class of employees.


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## Exvalley (Aug 19, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> Are we in agreement that the conductor of an Amtrak train is entitled to our respect and what he says goes?


Being a Conductor is a hard job - and the Conductor needs to deal with some very difficult people. My default position in regard to the Conductor, or any other staff member on the train, is to be respectful and follow their orders. If they break that trust with an unreasonable request, I would politely explain my position. If that didn't change anything I would take it up with customer service after the fact.

The vast majority of employees are good people just trying to make an honest living. I don't want to make their day any harder than it needs to be.


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## jis (Aug 19, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Yes, although a few suffer from a little tin god complex. In any case, they have the authority to boot you off, so that has to be factored in.


Indeed! But obedience and respect are two different things. I do obey a lot of people because of the power that is vested in them to cause me harm, should they so choose. I quite often do not respect them much, nor disrespect them, mind you - just neutral on the matter, since I don't know them well enough to form an opinion on the matter.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 19, 2021)

jis said:


> Indeed! But obedience and respect are two different things. I do obey a lot of people because of the power that is vested in them to cause me harm, should they so choose. I quite often do not respect them much, nor disrespect them, mind you - just neutral on the matter, since I don't know them well enough to form an opinion on the matter.


Having traveled the world, I totally agree with jis on this, especially when it comes to armed persons in Uniform that can jeopardize my freedom or even my life, whether LE or Military.
( and I don't exempt those in the US based on what I've seen in my 70+ years of Life!)


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## Steve4031 (Aug 27, 2021)

Eric in East County said:


> Are we in agreement that the conductor of an Amtrak train is entitled to our respect and whatever he or she says goes?


Yes. Especially if you want to remain on the train. Lol.


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