# Turnstiles For L.A. (Finally)



## WhoozOn1st (Aug 17, 2009)

Not a month after OTOL SoCal RailFest attendees breezed through the system (with a lone exception who just had to have a TAP card), LACMTA has begun using turnstiles for fare verification. The first ones are at Union Station and Wilshire-Normandie, with plans for expansion pending a progress report.

MTA adding turnstiles to thwart subway fare cheaters

"For decades, the MTA has used a gate-free honor system in which passengers walk unimpeded to train platforms without verifying that they have a ticket. To catch fare cheaters, the agency has relied on random checks by civilian inspectors and sheriff's deputies. But the fine for lacking a ticket -- up to $250 -- still hasn't deterred some riders from taking their chances. Cheaters cost the system at least $5 million a year in lost revenue."


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## jis (Aug 17, 2009)

WhoozOn1st said:


> Not a month after OTOL SoCal RailFest attendees breezed through the system (with a lone exception who just had to have a TAP card), LACMTA has begun using turnstiles for fare verification. The first ones are at Union Station and Wilshire-Normandie, with plans for expansion pending a progress report.


So following the completely brain-dead implementation of Tap Cards, will everyone now have to leave the station in the middle of Watts while guns are afiring in the neighborhood, and re-enter through the turnstile in order to do a transfer, say at Rosa Parks station?


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## AlanB (Aug 17, 2009)

I just find it interesting that this is being reported as the solution to end all problems. It's going to stop fare evasion. It's going to stop crime. It's going to stop the homeless from entering the system.

Guess they've never bothered to visit NY City to find out that those things aren't true.

Yes, it may well cut down on the amount of fare evasion, but whether it cuts down enough to actually pay for the gates and their ongoing maintenance could be debatable.


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## tp49 (Aug 17, 2009)

AlanB said:


> I just find it interesting that this is being reported as the solution to end all problems. It's going to stop fare evasion. It's going to stop crime. It's going to stop the homeless from entering the system.
> Guess they've never bothered to visit NY City to find out that those things aren't true.
> 
> Yes, it may well cut down on the amount of fare evasion, but whether it cuts down enough to actually pay for the gates and their ongoing maintenance could be debatable.


I've wished for years that LA would do this. I agree that it will not end fare evasion or crime but what it does do is make enforcement easier. Instead of having to check an entire train as they were/are doing enforcement can be handled at the turnstile points. I also figure that having the turnstiles are cheaper then having police officers checking for fare payment on trains as I don't think that the amount of the evasion tickets written would equal the salaries of the officers. It also would allow a more efficient use of police services.


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## AlanB (Aug 17, 2009)

tp49 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > I just find it interesting that this is being reported as the solution to end all problems. It's going to stop fare evasion. It's going to stop crime. It's going to stop the homeless from entering the system.
> ...


I wouldn't argue that in general it makes enforcement easier, however, once you get past the turnstyle succesfully then you can't get caught for the duration.

However regarding salaries, if they are indeed loosing the amounts of revenue being quoted, then I'd say that it should easily be possible for each officer to write at least one fare evasion ticket per day. At $5M in losses, divided by $1.25 divided by 365, that's almost 13,000 fare evasions each day of the year.

So if they do that, and it should be easy, then they'd have to be making more than $31.25 per hour in order for that one ticket to not cover their salary for the day. And of course they are hopefully performing other valuable services for the rest of the day. This assumes an 8 hour shift.

The real problem is that the officers aren't doing enough checking. I'm not quite sure why that is, but I'd say that during the week or so that I was in LA, I think we only had our tickets checked once, maybe twice. Saw plenty of officers, they just weren't checking tickets for whatever reasons.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2009)

AlanB said:


> The real problem is that the officers aren't doing enough checking. I'm not quite sure why that is, but I'd say that during the week or so that I was in LA, I think we only had our tickets checked once, maybe twice. Saw plenty of officers, they just weren't checking tickets for whatever reasons.


Yes, the seeming complete lack of POP checking in LA was rather striking, specially when compared to other POP operations like the RiverLINE or HBLRT that I am familiar with.


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## tp49 (Aug 17, 2009)

jis said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The real problem is that the officers aren't doing enough checking. I'm not quite sure why that is, but I'd say that during the week or so that I was in LA, I think we only had our tickets checked once, maybe twice. Saw plenty of officers, they just weren't checking tickets for whatever reasons.
> ...


The officers generally feel (right or wrong) that the checking task is beneath them. They feel it should be left to the civilian inspectors.

The lack of POP checking is also striking in both San Francisco and Sacramento. In all the years I've been riding Muni I've only had an inspector ask to see my POP once and that one time was in the Embarcadero station.

In Sacramento outside certain runs where you're guaranteed to be checked (during rush hour) it's rare to see a fare inspector. In the last year where I"ve been riding light rail pretty much daily I've been asked for POP no more than five times.


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## the_traveler (Aug 17, 2009)

In my numerous times riding MAX in Portland over the past month, I have only been asked to verify that I had a ticket *TWICE*! Once was on WES by the Conductor leaving Beaverton (but surprising not on the return - no passenger's were checked) and once at the Beaverton TC (before leaving the platform - luckily I just bought a new one for the ride home because the current one expired).

Tri-Met also uses an honor system.


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## AlanB (Aug 17, 2009)

While I will admit that it may be do to the fact that it had only been opened for a week, on 2 out of 4 rides taken on Seattle's new Link, we got checked. We had the ORCA card and they didn't yet seem to have the portable scanners to check that we had tapped in, but they did want to see the card at least.

On the other hand in 8 rides on the Seattle Streetcar we never saw anyone checking tickets.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 17, 2009)

AlanB said:


> While I will admit that it may be do to the fact that it had only been opened for a week, on 2 out of 4 rides taken on Seattle's new Link, we got checked. We had the ORCA card and they didn't yet seem to have the portable scanners to check that we had tapped in, but they did want to see the card at least.
> On the other hand in 8 rides on the Seattle Streetcar we never saw anyone checking tickets.


In both PDX and SEA we were never ask for tickets or cards while riding any of the various and sundry typpes of local metro transit,of course the

downtown zones are free so perhaps this is just luck of the draw on our part, the exception was the mono-rail from the Space Needle down to

Nordstroms/Mall which really isnt metro transportation! :lol:


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## AlanB (Aug 17, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> In both PDX and SEA we were never ask for tickets or cards while riding any of the various and sundry typpes of local metro transit,of course thedowntown zones are free so perhaps this is just luck of the draw on our part, the exception was the mono-rail from the


Just for the record so that anyone reading this doesn't get caught, in Seattle only the buses in the downtown tunnel are free. The new Light Rail train is not free, even in the tunnel. You must have a valid fare medium to board a LRT in the tunnel regardless of how far you are going.

In Portland, through December both buses and the LRT are free in what's called Fareless Square. Starting next year, they're going the opposite way of Seattle, only the LRT will remain free within the Fareless Sq. Buses will require valid fare.


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## sechs (Aug 17, 2009)

I'd say that there's a 99% chance that LACMTA is screwing this up.

I was in LA a few weeks ago with a friend who used to live there. He complained mercilessly that no one rode the subway. Adding a barrier is just that.

A properly enforced proof of payment system works well. They just don't have that, either.

I think that it would have been far more cost-effective to pay for proper enforcement of the system that they had. More importantly, the presence of an enforcer would greatly decrease those other undesirable elements.


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## the_traveler (Aug 17, 2009)

sechs said:


> those other undesirable elements


You talking about me? :lol:


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 18, 2009)

Here in Austin our crack Transportation Authority, CAP-METRO,is proposing to double fares on all the bus fares/assorted

passes and ticket schemes and get this, the New Light Rail that is still not operational after a year of safety testing and

faiure of said tests, they are blaming it on unanticipated expenses re the light rail,a drop in ridership(they eliminated the

free downtown Armadillo sudo-trolleys which only ran downtown)and went from a multi-million dollar surplus to being in the red in the course of a year!Seniors,special needs pax etc.Tough Luck, we need the money to"study" the feasability

of extending the yet to be opened light rail and meanwhile they are eliminating routes,laying off drivers(after a pro-

longed and bitter strike last year!)Most of the board of this comedy show are local politicians,not any real experts or experienced transportation folks, the company they hired to run this has had bad reviews in most cities as I ve read on this forum,it starts with a V but cant find it or remember the name?Meanwhile the traffic delays grow,the citizens are getting riled up(rightfully so!)yada! yada! yada!


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## WhoozOn1st (Aug 18, 2009)

AlanB said:


> ...in Seattle only the buses in the downtown tunnel are free.


Better way to put it: In the Seattle downtown tunnel only the buses are free. Seattle buses do have a downtown Ride Free Area, including the tunnel:

"Riding Metro Transit is free between 6 a.m. and 7 p.m. daily in Downtown Seattle.The Ride Free Area (RFA) extends from the north at Battery St. to S. Jackson St. on the south, and east at 6th Avenue to the waterfront on the west. Metro routes 116, 118 & 119 and Link light rail are not included in the Ride Free area. Central Link Light Rail is not a part of the Ride Free Area."

Several years ago the RFA proved very handy for getting from the hotel to a Mariners game, and from the hotel to the Pyramid brewery and tour across the street from the ballpark the next day.

As for the post about the former L.A. resident who complained that nobody rides the Red Line (subway), I think recent OTOL RailFest participants, and attendees at our Amtrak Unlimited 2nd Annual Gathering last October, can bear pretty good witness that this is not the case.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 18, 2009)

I know the solution. What you do is, you raise the fine to a more reasonable $2500, and then pay your pop collectors on a 10% commission for the number of evasions they catch. Problem solved once and forever.


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## DET63 (Aug 18, 2009)

AlanB said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > In both PDX and SEA we were never ask for tickets or cards while riding any of the various and sundry typpes of local metro transit,of course thedowntown zones are free so perhaps this is just luck of the draw on our part, the exception was the mono-rail from the
> ...


Commentary on TriMet's decision to eliminate Fareless Square for the buses (unless the powers that be have changed their minds, it will remain not only for LRT (i.e., MAX) but also for the Streetcar): Don't Scrap Fareless Square, TriMet.


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## sechs (Aug 19, 2009)

WhoozOn1st said:


> As for the post about the former L.A. resident who complained that nobody rides the Red Line (subway), I think recent OTOL RailFest participants, and attendees at our Amtrak Unlimited 2nd Annual Gathering last October, can bear pretty good witness that this is not the case.


Maybe you found the times of day that somebody rides. 
I've never seen more than a handful of people in a station, and never had a problem finding two seats together. Frankly, I've seen more people riding the Gold Line, and I've only ever taken it between Union Station and Chinatown!


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## transit54 (Aug 19, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I know the solution. What you do is, you raise the fine to a more reasonable $2500, and then pay your pop collectors on a 10% commission for the number of evasions they catch. Problem solved once and forever.


Problem with a $2500 ticket is enforcing payment. I'd bet a sizable percentage of riders would have trouble paying a $250 ticket, let alone a $2500 ticket. But they'd probably manage the former, not the latter. So then it will cost even more to find them, haul them into court, and then, likely throw them in jail for some duration of time.

I think the $250 ticket works, but you just need to up the enforcement. I've only been out to LA once, two years ago, and spent three days riding the Metro without ever having my ticket inspected. The commission idea works, but I think the issue is that it then ups the chances that someone will write false tickets or something of that nature. I'm sure they'd have no problem hiring a bunch of ticket checkers at $15 an hour. As long as they write a ticket every other day, the system would pay for itself.

That being said, coming from areas that always had turnstiles (NYC, primarily, but also Boston and DC) I found the whole honor system rather strange.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 19, 2009)

But anyway, paying enforcement officers on comission would solve the problem either way. They'd sit with baited breath waiting for some hapless fool not to pay, wherein they'd all tackle them to the ground and haul them in.


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## DET63 (Aug 19, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > I know the solution. What you do is, you raise the fine to a more reasonable $2500, and then pay your pop collectors on a 10% commission for the number of evasions they catch. Problem solved once and forever.
> ...


A turnstile system requires the construction of stations, etc., to prevent passengers from simply walking around the turnstiles. For light-rail and/or streetcar systems, full-fledged stations every couple of blocks are not practical. You either have to have turnstiles on the trains themselves, have the train operator require fares before permitting boarding, or use an honor system.


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