# "Lock The Door When You Go Out!"



## frugalist (Aug 18, 2010)

What would Amtrak have to do to make all the sleeper doors lockable from the outside?

I know I've brought this up before, but the traveling solo thread has reignited my interest in this security issue. Yes, I was told not to worry, just keep my stuff out of sight and close the curtain when I leave. Yes, that's what I did on my trip last month, and I had no problems with anything missing. But, that doesn't mean this isn't a concern. And obviously, I'm not the only one who doesn't like the idea that you can't lock your door when you go to dinner.

I would imagine at the least Amtrak would have to replace the entire door and door frame to provide for a mechanism that can be locked by the passenger when he goes to the lounge or the diner. Are there any other, simpler modifications that can be done to achieve the same goal.

Other than not having the money to make such modifications to every sleeper in the fleet, are there any other reasons why it can't be done? Are they concerned people will walk off the train with the keys?


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## haolerider (Aug 18, 2010)

frugalist said:


> What would Amtrak have to do to make all the sleeper doors lockable from the outside?
> 
> I know I've brought this up before, but the traveling solo thread has reignited my interest in this security issue. Yes, I was told not to worry, just keep my stuff out of sight and close the curtain when I leave. Yes, that's what I did on my trip last month, and I had no problems with anything missing. But, that doesn't mean this isn't a concern. And obviously, I'm not the only one who doesn't like the idea that you can't lock your door when you go to dinner.
> 
> ...


A satisfactory locking mechanism is one of the primary issues, as well as developing a program that would allow ticket agents to issue "keys" for the locks. Concerns are: what about stations that don't have agents - who will give a key to a sleeping car passenger? - who will re-key the locks when a new passengers boards down-line? What kind of equipment would have to be developed on-board to allow someone (who) to be the "keeper of the keys"? If someone knows of a product that would seem to work, let Amtrak know, but to date I am sure they are not considering exterior locks for the sleeping car rooms.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

Just check the nightmare hotels have to go through, keeping and issuing room "keys", and I think you will find why Amtrak doesn't want to get involved.

Plus, exactly what problem are you trying to solve? Can you give hard facts to justify this is indeed a problem? In other words, just how much many should Amtrak spend to fix something that isn't really broken?

BTW, did you mom really teach you to lock the bathroom door behind you, when leaving? :giggle:


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## caravanman (Aug 18, 2010)

Hi,

Originaly, the valuables passengers carried were a wallet, ladies a handbag, maybe just a camera too. Nowadays we all seem to need to carry masses of valuable electronic stuff just to get through the day...

I expect the main issue is that of safety, e.g. if smoke is coming from your compartment, the staff need to get it open.

While it only takes one bad apple to spoil things, I believe that 99.9% people are honest, and that our fears of crime are often based on sensational TV fictions, etc.

Just take sensible precautions, and life aboard train will be fine, even without locking your door when you go out.

After all, coach passengers seem to manage without locking their possesions to their ankles!

Ed


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## frugalist (Aug 18, 2010)

Assuming that the door and the frame have to be replaced, why wouldn't a magnetic key card system work? Who would be the keeper of the keys? How about the SCA for those rooms he's responsible for + the Conductor as the guy in charge of the train? Why can't one of those be responsible for handing out keys to boarding passengers and changing key combinations.

I don't see the analogy between hotels and trains. I really feel sorry for hotels that they have to change their locks for each new guest. Hotels HAVE to have lockable doors. In most hotels just about anyone can walk up to a room door. Imagine if they couldn't be locked! Ransack the room and drive away! Tough to do on a train. As has been pointed out many times on this forum, how far can a thief go (at least until the next stop)? I don't buy the argument that the SCA is constantly on the lookout for his pax. In fact, it seems some SCAs think the job title is "Sleeping" Car Attendant (the adjective "sleeping" describing the car attendant).

A better analogy might be between a cruise ship and a train. Room stewards and heads of housekeeping can gain access to the room. Would you feel comfortable if your cabin couldn't be locked from the outside knowing that a thief couldn't get too far on a cruise ship!  That's laughable.

Hard facts? Nope. Got none of those. Just the very fuzzy feeling of peace of mind and the expectation of the most basic security precautions onboard.

"BTW, did you mom really teach you to lock the bathroom door behind you, when leaving?" You gotta be kidding, right? You're not that stupid, are you?


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## buck1108 (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!

The room attendant and conductor had to use a sledgehammer and crowbar to knock the door down.

That might be the ticket! 

But really...I can see how a well thought out key system could be workable. A micro circuit design that expired

after a certain time (perhaps once the train pulled into the station, an electrical signal could force unlock all

rooms to avoid lock-outs). Fingerprint technology would have to be improved - maybe voiceprint technology...

Physical tickets could contain a microdot which could be 'read' by a door scanner, etc. An 'Am-robot' could

control all doors (of course, when the robot had a mishap, the doors would be opening and closing repeatedly...)

Let's hope that wouldn't control all toilet lids/seats, as well...

Oh well. :blink:


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## TVRM610 (Aug 18, 2010)

frugalist said:


> Assuming that the door and the frame have to be replaced, why wouldn't a magnetic key card system work? Who would be the keeper of the keys? How about the SCA for those rooms he's responsible for + the Conductor as the guy in charge of the train? Why can't one of those be responsible for handing out keys to boarding passengers and changing key combinations.
> 
> Hard facts? Nope. Got none of those. Just the very fuzzy feeling of peace of mind and the expectation of the most basic security precautions onboard.


Could a magnetic key card system work? Sure, the trains in Europe do this. The problem is that Amtrak has no reason to do this. It would be expensive and a large hassle.

"Expectation of the most basic security precautions onboard" ???? What are you worried about getting stolen? You are expecting something that Amtrak does not provide. I also think you far underestimate the on-board crew. I've personally been reminded of my correct room or car # by many SCA's when I've gotten turned around on a train (yes it happens). ha. They know who people are, and where they belong.

I've said before I feel safer leaving valuables in a sleeper than a hotel room (and yes I stay in nice hotels). Many people don't realize that hotel maids can get into ALL the rooms and the hotel usually has a limited liability policy for guest valuables in the room (hence the safes available in the room or at the front desk). So think twice about the added protection of those magnetic keycards, your stuff can still get taken.


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## MrFSS (Aug 18, 2010)

buck1108 said:


> Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!
> 
> The room attendant and conductor had to use a sledgehammer and crowbar to knock the door down.


I always have wondered about that. What if someone is in the room with it locked properly and they have a medical emergency or die. Is a sledge hammer and crow bar the only way for the crew to get into the room?


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## frugalist (Aug 18, 2010)

I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect. I've said my peace on this issue, so let's just agree to disagree. When I take my laptop with me on my next LD trip, I will take it with me in my backpack when I go to the diner or the lounge. Am I paranoid? I'm not a psychologist, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion. 

I haven't had occasion to stay in a hotel since I got my laptop, but I wouldn't leave my laptop in my hotel room either.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 18, 2010)

frugalist said:


> A better analogy might be between a cruise ship and a train. Room stewards and heads of housekeeping can gain access to the room. Would you feel comfortable if your cabin couldn't be locked from the outside knowing that a thief couldn't get too far on a cruise ship!  That's laughable.


I don't know of many cruise ships that have a "coach" section. Passengers that only get a deck chair, and no meals, for their cruise.

That is a lead-in to my viewpoint. The train precedent is that coach passengers have no place to lock up their luggage, or other valuables, when they leave their seat to go elsewhere (bathroom, dining car, lounge, etc). However, that situation is considered safe enough. Plus I think the facts back this up.

So, that also fits to sleeper passengers. The security of their luggage is no worse than in coach.


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## buck1108 (Aug 18, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> buck1108 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!
> ...


The personnel at that particular incident hadn't seen that happen before, and so after about an hour, they found a sledgehammer.


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## buck1108 (Aug 18, 2010)

frugalist said:


> I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect. I've said my peace on this issue, so let's just agree to disagree. When I take my laptop with me on my next LD trip, I will take it with me in my backpack when I go to the diner or the lounge. Am I paranoid? I'm not a psychologist, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion.
> 
> I haven't had occasion to stay in a hotel since I got my laptop, but I wouldn't leave my laptop in my hotel room either.


I tend to take my valuables with me when I go to the diner or sightseeing car in a smaller bag, etc. Better to be safe than sorry, especially with the smaller things. The larger items might be ok (if I had a tuba, for example).


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

This should have been posted here

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amtrak-guest-rewards/1115434-whats-stupidest-least-substantive-amtrak-related-thing-you-can-complain-about.html


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

frugalist said:


> You gotta be kidding, right? You're not that stupid, are you?


I guess my point was too subtle. 

Your mom taught you to be overly paranoid. OK. We get that. Now, expecting others to pay millions of dollars simply because you are excessively paranoid is what's really stupid.

A little common sense is all that is really required here. Don't leave anything really valuable sitting out and overly visible. Put everything way before you leave your compartment. Don't create a crime of opportunity.

In all the times (decades now?) I have traveled Amtrak, I have never had such a problem, nor have I witnessed someone else having such a problem.


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## AlanB (Aug 18, 2010)

frugalist said:


> I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect. I've said my peace on this issue, so let's just agree to disagree. When I take my laptop with me on my next LD trip, I will take it with me in my backpack when I go to the diner or the lounge. Am I paranoid? I'm not a psychologist, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion.
> 
> I haven't had occasion to stay in a hotel since I got my laptop, but I wouldn't leave my laptop in my hotel room either.


I brought a $35 laptop cable lock, which I use to secure my laptop to the release bar on the seat in the room. I also use it to secure my laptop to a large object when in a hotel room and I have no need to carry my laptop with me when I leave the room.


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## AlanB (Aug 18, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> buck1108 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!
> ...


On the Viewliner's with the original locks, there was indeed an easy and mimimally disruptive way to open a locked door. A small screw driver was all that was needed, along with the knowledge of what you actually needed to do.

As they've been replacing the locks with the type used on the Superliners, unfortunately that ability has gone by the wayside. And the Superliner style locks are indeed near impossible to open from the outside. AFAIK you've pretty much got to take out the glass or knock down the door in an emergency.


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## Ryan (Aug 18, 2010)

frugalist said:


> I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect.


I'd like to meet some of these mythical members, because I haven't seen one in the 1827 months that I've been here.
I've never felt any discomfort in leaving valuables in my room when I leave (and I rarely travel light, so there's usually a pair of laptops, a GPS and a scanner there for the taking. Close the curtain and door when you leave and a passerby has no way of knowing if the room is occupied or not. even if someone were brazen enough to go down the line trying to open doors where the curtains are closed, that isn't going to last long when they happen onto rooms that are occupied!

Edit: Over 2 years? Where has all the time gone?


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## GregL (Aug 18, 2010)

AlanB said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > buck1108 said:
> ...


We had a room on one trip where the door wouldn't stay shut,let alone locked all night!!

GregL


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## spacecadet (Aug 18, 2010)

TVRM610 said:


> Could a magnetic key card system work? Sure, the trains in Europe do this. The problem is that Amtrak has no reason to do this. It would be expensive and a large hassle.


It would cost some money, but I don't see why it would be particularly expensive (relatively speaking) or a "large hassle". You can get a magnetic lock put on your home's front door for a few hundred dollars. Amtrak would no doubt get a large discount off that price per lock. So let's say $100 per lock, installed. How many rooms would they have to install these on? I'm just estimating about 4,500. That's $450,000.

There'd be some other parts of the system they'd need - the key programmer, a bunch of keys, a place to store them, but that wouldn't be more than a few thousand more per car.

It being a government program, let's allow for the customary 100% cost overrun and say $1 million for the entire system fleet-wide. That's really not that much.

As for it being a large hassle, in what way? You have a box with a set of pre-programmed keys for each room. As each passenger boards, the SCA hands them the key to their room. When the passenger de-boards, they give the key back. If they forget, no big deal, there's a bunch of spare cards that can either be pre-programmed (as spares for each room) or programmed on the fly. But it would just be the SCA's duty to collect the key as the passenger de-boards, so this shouldn't happen all that often.

The nice thing about magnetic card systems too is that if someone locks themselves out of (or in) their room or loses their key, the SCA either just makes another one or uses the master key card he/she'd be carrying all the time to get into the room. That's actually a big improvement over the system now.

There's often a mentality among some, not just here but everywhere and about everything, that "it's not done now, therefore it's not worth doing because it would be too hard". Nothing would *ever* get done if the majority of people felt that way. (Indeed, it is a big reason why other countries have passed us by when it comes to rail travel. It's just too hard to implement a modern rail system here! Well yeah, if you think it is. It becomes self-fulfilling.)

I just don't see how this would be so expensive or such a hassle that the obvious benefits would be outweighed by the pain of getting it done.


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## the_traveler (Aug 18, 2010)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> coach passengers have no place to lock up their luggage, or other valuables, when they leave their seat to go elsewhere (bathroom, dining car, lounge, etc). However, that situation is considered safe enough. Plus I think the facts back this up.
> 
> So, that also fits to sleeper passengers. The security of their luggage is no worse than in coach.


That is a very good point!




So why doesn't Amtrak spend $xxx,xxx,xxx so coach passengers can secure their seats too, while they spend $xxx,xxx,xxx to provide locks for the sleeping car passengers?



I for one would rather them spend the same $xxx,xxx,xxx for more cars, to expand the service!





Except for #27/28 when the #807/808 coach is carried between CHI and MSP, coach passengers are not allowed in sleeping cars. Most trains have the Dining Car placed between the sleepers and coach. And I *HAVE* been questioned by the Dining Car staff *AND* the SCA when I've entered the sleepers and they did not recognize me!


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## MrFSS (Aug 18, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> I *HAVE* been questioned by the Dining Car staff *AND* the SCA when I've entered the sleepers and they did not recognize me!


I thought everyone always recognized *THE TRAVELER*.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

spacecadet said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Could a magnetic key card system work? Sure, the trains in Europe do this. The problem is that Amtrak has no reason to do this. It would be expensive and a large hassle.
> ...


Yeah, locks would be nice, but there are better things to spend a million bucks on. Amtrak is so behind that improvements are a matter of triage.


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## TVRM610 (Aug 18, 2010)

spacecadet said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Could a magnetic key card system work? Sure, the trains in Europe do this. The problem is that Amtrak has no reason to do this. It would be expensive and a large hassle.
> ...


The hassle is not when everything works like it should. Yes.. the way you described it sounds like a wonderful plan.

Only what happens when the lock stops working? Do you have a new staff member at each terminal who knows how to fix the locks? Or does the car go without them until it can go to beachgrove? When the power goes out how do they work? Is the $100 base system that you say is so cheap set up to work in an environment that constantly looses and regains power? (by constantly I mean several times a day, every day its being used), does this $100 per door system strong enough to last even a week being constantly shaken by the movement of the trains?

Oh I know, I'm suddenly an "Apologetist" for suggesting the idea is difficult.

Do I think there is room for improvement at Amtrak? yes.


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## the_traveler (Aug 18, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > I *HAVE* been questioned by the Dining Car staff *AND* the SCA when I've entered the sleepers and they did not recognize me!
> ...


No, not everyone *RECOGNIZES* the_traveler - but everyone *KNOWS* the_traveler!


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## Ryan (Aug 18, 2010)

He could be sitting next to you right now!!! 

(if you were on a train, of course)


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## alanh (Aug 18, 2010)

The train environment is brutal on anything with moving parts. I'd give a household $100 lock a week before it broke. A hotel-grade lock would be better, but I'd bet the innards would shake apart after a few months.

Note that all the old built-in door latches have been replaced, as simple as they were.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 18, 2010)

Add me to the list of folks who would like a door you can at least *CLOSE* from the outside, let alone lock. Needless to say we're obviously in the minority here. Most of what you'll get on AU are people asking why five dollar duct tape isn't a good enough lock for your thousand dollar train journey. All I know is that the next time you pass by an open compartment feel free to take all you want. Everyone is so convinced it never happens that you'll probably be long gone and home free before they're ever able to figure out where their stuff went.


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## Ryan (Aug 18, 2010)

Out of 27 posts, you're the only one that's brought up duct tape, so your claim that that is "Most of what you get on AU" is demonstrably false.

My personal experience of closing door from the outside proves your claim that the doors can't close false as well.

Have you ever been on a train, or do you just take other people's complaints and blindly parrot them as gospel?


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## haolerider (Aug 18, 2010)

daxomni said:


> Add me to the list of folks who would like a door you can at least *CLOSE* from the outside, let alone lock. Needless to say we're obviously in the minority here. Most of what you'll get on AU are people asking why five dollar duct tape isn't a good enough lock for your thousand dollar train journey. All I know is that the next time you pass by an open compartment feel free to take all you want. Everyone is so convinced it never happens that you'll probably be long gone and home free before they're ever able to figure out where their stuff went.


I am curious as to why you even continue to read/post on this site, since you seem to find fault with most forum members and come up with some of the most illogical comments. You might be happier on a site of your own design. Then you can agree with yourself!


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## PerRock (Aug 18, 2010)

After reading thru the first few posts here, and feeling to lazy to read the rest...

what if one's key car were ones Ticket; those have magnetic strips on them (or can easily) get a simple swipe-thru reader and give the SCA & Conductors a master key. The SCA is supposed to clean the room between pax I do believe he could probably bunch a button or two that would disable the exiting pax's code and the next's active.

peter


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## dlagrua (Aug 18, 2010)

Theft in the sleepers is a non-issue. They keep the coach passengers out. Say someone steals your laptop. It would have to be another sleeper passenger. They take a big chance on leaving the sleeper car without anyone noticing it. We've gone to dinner with our room door open and our laptop on the table and it vwas still there when we got back. Not saying 100% of the people are honest but the majority are. In the sleepers you tend to get more of the "upper crust" of society and very few lowlifes.


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## sunchaser (Aug 18, 2010)

We haven't had any issues with security of valuables on the train. Even when we have forgotten to cover them up, everything has been left alone. You could always put your items away in your bag & lock it. When we were on the CS last year, someone left their cell phone in the PPC. Someone else found it & gave it to the Attendant who did an announcement, & it was returned to the owner.

If Amtrak was install electronic locks, would they work without power? Who/where would they put all those extra keys that would be needed in case someone 'loses' their key? In the SCA's roomette? Or make the Conductor tend them?


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## nferr (Aug 18, 2010)

It would be a huge hassle to have locks with the quick turnover of passengers in sleepers. I don't know how often things get stolen but I've traveled many nights in sleepers and have never heard of anything taken from a sleeper.

I just shut the door and curtain when leaving the room and don't leave anything expensive out in plain sight, although I've seen many rooms with laptops, scanners, cameras, etc left out in the open. The attendant would have to have a master key anyway in order to get in the rooms. So now I could see anybody who lost something on their own blaming the attendant for stealing everytime they think something is missing.


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## PRR 60 (Aug 18, 2010)

I just stash my laptop out of sight, close the curtains (thanks to that modern miracle, Velcro), and then close the door. Given that set-up, someone walking by really cannot tell if you are taking a nap or out of the room. That is, of course, until the door slides open on its own. That was my experience on the EB this summer. Maybe I should have left the door open? Perhaps it would have closed on its own while I was out. Bottom line is that I had no problems, and I really was not too worried about it.

I also do not make the presumption that sleeper passengers are honest and coach passengers are not. I'm an equal opportunity person. I trust no one. Besides, I ride sleeper. To paraphrase Groucho Marx (everyone under 50, pull-up Google), I do not trust any group that has me as a member.


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## the_traveler (Aug 18, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> To paraphrase Groucho Marx (everyone under 50, pull-up Google), I do not trust any group that has me as a member.


I resemble that remark!







I'm 49, and know who he is. ("The magic word is ...")

I don't even trust myself!





Sometimes I even (although it may seem anti-social) close the door and curtains when I'm INSIDE the room! Thus, if someone did in fact want to steal something (which I really doubt), even if they see my door closed, they don't know if I'm in the room or not! When I do leave. many times I just messily cover thing with like a coat or pillow. Unless someone really intends to steal something, I find this is enough!



(Do you really think a locked door on your house or car would really stop a determined thief?



)

I really think most people in a sleeper are honest!


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 18, 2010)

Allow me to scare the socks off of you. I used to pick locks as a hobby, and attempted to sell better security locks to people. I have never come to a residential door lock I could not have open in under 60 seconds. I have only come across two that took me more than 30 seconds. Most can be opened within ten seconds using a device known as an electronic pick gun. Far too many can be open in seconds using an ordinary flathead screwdriver (they lack deadbolts, especially at rear entrances!).

Those hotel doors? They are keyed to open using master keys. Scary fact? The company that makes most hotel door key system only uses 6 different master codes, and they make a card for internal use that opens all of them. More than a few crooks have copies, as do many police departments.

Other than using a disc-tumbler (Abloy) lock, locks generally produce security only from those who would steal opportunistically. The security they provide from anything but roving kids is an illusion. If any of you care to send me a train ticket to your door, I will be happy to demonstrate just how pathetic the lock you are currently using is. I will open it, re-lock it, leave no trace of doing it, and be done in under two minutes.

One walking through a train car and not seeing anything valuable is not going to risk being caught to look around for same. The dedicated thief or person out to get you will not be foiled by any system Amtrak would put into their trains. Placing such security systems would be silly and cost a fortune.


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## rrdude (Aug 18, 2010)

Dax, KEEP POSTING HERE! I for one enjoy the alternate view, the realist view, the pessimist view, just all the DIFFERENT views.

You have as much right to post here as any other foamer / fan / enthusiast / or advocate.

Disregard the BS when OP say "...get your own site, yada, yada, yada....."

I certainly don't agree with everything you post, but I enjoy reading it.

It's so childish when OP don't like what you write, or whatever, and then go on the "attack". Consider the source.

Arguments are what make this forum interesting. And when you want to know whooz right, just ask me, I'll tell ya!


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## LA Resident (Aug 18, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Allow me to scare the socks off of you. I used to pick locks as a hobby, and attempted to sell better security locks to people. I have never come to a residential door lock I could not have open in under 60 seconds. I have only come across two that took me more than 30 seconds. Most can be opened within ten seconds using a device known as an electronic pick gun. Far too many can be open in seconds using an ordinary flathead screwdriver (they lack deadbolts, especially at rear entrances!).
> 
> Those hotel doors? They are keyed to open using master keys. Scary fact? The company that makes most hotel door key system only uses 6 different master codes, and they make a card for internal use that opens all of them. More than a few crooks have copies, as do many police departments.
> 
> ...


So you're the guy who picked the lock in the PPC car and enjoyed the extra Champagne and cider??? :lol:


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 19, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Out of 27 posts, you're the only one that's brought up duct tape, so your claim that that is "Most of what you get on AU" is demonstrably false.


I think you're taking my post a little too seriously there Ryan. But thanks for playing and better luck next time.



Ryan said:


> My personal experience of closing door from the outside proves your claim that the doors can't close false as well.


Really? How did you manage to close it so it wouldn't just open up again? I can't seem to figure it out.



haolerider said:


> I am curious as to why you even continue to read/post on this site, since you seem to find fault with most forum members and come up with some of the most illogical comments.


See my reply to Ryan.



sunchaser said:


> If Amtrak was install electronic locks, would they work without power?


Good point. I guess they could run off battery power, but it certainly complicates the solution I had in mind.



rrdude said:


> Dax, KEEP POSTING HERE! I for one enjoy the alternate view, the realist view, the pessimist view, just all the DIFFERENT views.


You got it rrdude, and thanks for the inclusive attitude. I agree that this place could benefit from some less apologetic voices.


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## caravanman (Aug 19, 2010)

Hi,

Given that Frugalist stated that he was happy to state his views and leave it at that, in post 9... and we are now on post 40 ish, I guess we can now stop giving him our opinions!

My view is that the money would be wiser spent on a system to better regulate train temperatures, and then to stop the dinning car equipment breaking down, or running out of options on day 1!

Ed


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## Ana (Aug 19, 2010)

A lock would be nice but it doesn't bother me. I think it's way more trouble than benefit. Besides, I've worked in hotels and don't trust the locks at all. So many people have master keys! At my hotel, my swipe card was a master key that opened all guest rooms, even though I worked in personnel and had no reason ever to go in a guest room. I was terrified of what could happen if I lost it. Locks make people feel safe, when maybe they shouldn't. In hotel rooms, I keep the latch that hooks across the door on when I'm asleep. You can be quite isolated if there aren't many rooms occupied (and a person could enter very quietly if they had a master key). I don't worry about that on Amtrak sleeper - it's a closed environment and there are other people very close by if I have to scream 

As far as valuables go, I carry them all with me, all the time. I think I'm an open, friendly person generally but when I'm far from home I put care for my passport, wallet, phone and laptop above complete faith in human nature. Losing a passport and wallet would be a nightmare, and I really don't want to lose my phone or laptop either. They all fit in my little day pack and I just take them with me everywhere, so no stress. Same as I wouldn't leave them for the day in a hotel room either. I purposely got a netbook (teeny laptop) for travel since it'd be a pain with a big laptop.

Anyway, just how I deal with it as a solo female traveler.


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## amtrakwolverine (Aug 19, 2010)

I have a 6 foot locking laptop cable i take with me and lock my laptop up with that. I tie it to the table in the hotel or the seat back table when I'm in coach on the train.


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## CHANGEATJAMAICA (Aug 19, 2010)

If exterior door locks on sleepers were a "problem", some enterprising inventor,handyman, whatever would fabricate and market (probably on tv for $19.95 plus s&h, a second one free pay only the s&h) a portable lock that could be used by the individual traveler on any roomette, room on sleepers.

Howsomever, since no panacea of privacy has been produced; QED there "ain't" no problem.

Best regards,

Rodger...who had the same question before our first sleeper trip and haven't been bothered in dozens of trips taken.


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## frugalist (Aug 19, 2010)

I'm enjoying most of the comments in this thread. There have been some useful comments that I will consider for future trips. I particularly like the idea of the locking laptop cable. There have also been some thinly veiled ad hominem comments. I regret that I responded to one with my own ad hominem attack (not so thinly veiled). I apologize to the group for that comment. You'd think after all these years on the internet, I would learn to sleep on it before responding to a comment that is intended to provoke exactly the response I made.

I think the comments that a solution would be too expensive, or that the money would be better spent elsewhere, are irrelevant in this thread. I acknowledge in my original post that Amtrak doesn't have the money to re-fit every sleeper in the fleet with whatever solution is deemed appropriate. My question was what other obstacles (besides money) would prevent an adequate solution? A good point was brought up about the locks possibly not working if the power went out. About the question of storage of keys: is storage room so tight that there would be no room for the conductor to store a small case containing the keys in an area where he keeps other supplies and equipment?

While suggestions like "put all valuables out of sight and close the curtain and the door" are valid, I did mention in my original post that's exactly what I did on my trip last month. So while that's certainly good advice, it's really nothing new.

There is no such thing as absolute security. I know that! But how feasible is it technically and mechanically (forget the money for now) to provide a bit more security in the sleepers than we have now? That was the question I was hoping we could address in this thread. Can they at least design doors that will not slide open while we're out?

And it's not just the upper crust riding in the sleepers. I rode in sleepers last month, and I'm far from upper crust!  If it weren't for all the bonus points from credit card and checking account promotions that I transferred to my AGR account, I probably would've just driven. No way could I afford a sleeper. Besides, honesty is not class-based.


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## Nickrapak (Aug 19, 2010)

Electronic swipe systems are useless. In many cases, all you need is an Allen wrench and a thin screwdriver to open them. The only reason these locks are on hotel room doors is to provide a false sense of security, not to mention the various times keys seem to deprogram themselves. I don't really think locks are needed, but if Amtrak were to put locks in the doors, it would be much easier (and more secure) to use a standard pin tumbler system. The keys are easier to keep track of, harder to duplicate on-train, and the mechanism is smaller.


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## MrFSS (Aug 19, 2010)

Maybe we need an answer to this question. Pre-Amtrak did any of the US passenger train sleeping cars have door locks?


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## TVRM610 (Aug 19, 2010)

frugalist said:


> I think the comments that a solution would be too expensive, or that the money would be better spent elsewhere, are irrelevant in this thread. I acknowledge in my original post that Amtrak doesn't have the money to re-fit every sleeper in the fleet with whatever solution is deemed appropriate. My question was what other obstacles (besides money) would prevent an adequate solution? *A good point was brought up about the locks possibly not working if the power went out. About the question of storage of keys: is storage room so tight that there would be no room for the conductor to store a small case containing the keys in an area where he keeps other supplies and equipment? *
> 
> There is no such thing as absolute security. I know that! But how feasible is it technically and mechanically (forget the money for now) to provide a bit more security in the sleepers than we have now? That was the question I was hoping we could address in this thread. Can they at least design doors that will not slide open while we're out?
> 
> *And it's not just the upper crust riding in the sleepers.* I rode in sleepers last month, and I'm far from upper crust!  If it weren't for all the bonus points from credit card and checking account promotions that I transferred to my AGR account, I probably would've just driven. No way could I afford a sleeper. Besides, honesty is not class-based.


The power is a major factor, especially since you would need a system that can properly reset itself when power is restored. etc. As for storage, there is room for keys, that's not a factor at all. There are storage closets on board, and obviously the SCA would tend to the keys.

There are systems in place on other trains so perhaps Amtrak could purchase one like that. I think in reality the biggest fear that most of us on this board have is Amtrak can't keep doors in general in working order, so how is an electronic key system gonna stand a chance? TV's in the Viewliner were taken out, some say liscensing fees, some say maintenance, some say SCA's never bothered to get them going sometimes. Whatever the reason, TV's are too big of a hassle for amtrak in sleepers, so it's hard to realistically imagine it.

As for the upper crust comment.. AMEN. I'm certainly not one who believes sleeper car passengers are beyond theft. I'm pretty sure it has happened before. However... It probably only happens when valuables are left unattended in plain site, and even then the odds of it happening are quite low.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Aug 19, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> Maybe we need an answer to this question. Pre-Amtrak did any of the US passenger train sleeping cars have door locks?


Wow, I was planning on posting that exact question when I finished reading the whole thread. Sleeping cars have been around for 100+ years in various forms, if locks were needed they'd already be there.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 19, 2010)

frugalist said:


> Can they at least design doors that will not slide open while we're out?


Nothing I've seen or heard or read explains this part and it's one of the more perplexing design flaws I've ever come across.



MrFSS said:


> Maybe we need an answer to this question. Pre-Amtrak did any of the US passenger train sleeping cars have door locks?


Why limit our research to the distant past of one single country? I'd be more curious to find out what overnight sleeper trains currently have in Europe and Asia than what American trains had decades ago. In my experience the foreign trains were all so fast they didn't require any sleeper compartments, but I understand there are some modern overnight sleeper trains in countries like Japan and Russia. I just don't know how the compartments work since I never took them.


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## the_traveler (Aug 19, 2010)

frugalist said:


> And it's not just the upper crust riding in the sleepers. I rode in sleepers last month, and I'm far from upper crust!


Being from Florida, and with all the humidity, you're must be a soggy crust!





But I do agree, sleepers are not only for "the upper crust". Even "regular"



people ride in sleepers!


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## frugalist (Aug 19, 2010)

A lot of the comments so far are a variation of "no lock is 100% secure - a determined thief will get into your room." Agreed. But isn't this a little like thinking "since a determined thief can pick the lock on my home's front door, I'm not going to bother locking it when I go out." One thing a lock does is deter the casual, snatch & grab guy from getting a quick score. This is as true on a train as it is at home. Granted, you have a lot more to lose if a thief breaks into your home. But, it would still make for a bad day if someone who knew I wasn't in my room (because he saw me enter the dining room and sit down to eat) walked back to my car and grabbed something even though it was casually hidden under a pillow or coat on a seat. And a "determined thief" standing in the hall working on the lock, even if for just a few seconds, will draw a bit more attention that a guy ducking behind the drawn curtain.

I've read a lot of personal anecdotes and conjecture about the lack of a problem. But do you think if there was an alleged theft onboard, the conductor would get on the PA and announce it and ask the thief to please return the stolen goods? I think it would be kept as quiet as possible. When you're on a cruise, you don't hear of thefts, assaults or other crimes committed on board. The cruise company wants to keep those incidents as quiet as possible. To do otherwise would burst the illusion of being on a safe getaway, far from the problems of the big, bad city. I'm sure Amtrak would want to keep news of a possible crime onboard as quiet as possible too. So I'd like to throw out the possibility that maybe -- just maybe -- thefts might possibly be a tad more frequent than a lot of us on here think.

As far as the question of trains in the past having locks on their sleeper doors: while it would be interesting to know the answer, I don't think it would be relevant in today's world. Things are a lot different than they were back in the day. Instead of looking back, we should be looking ahead. As was mentioned, what is being done in other areas of the world? Maybe we should find out if other train systems have a better security system in place for their sleepers, and if so, how is that system implemented.

And if the attitude of "it's never been done up till now, so why should we start doing it?" was held by everyone, think of how slow any kind of progress would be. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be done now. It's a question of mechanical and technical feasibility and economic priority.

It sure isn't easy holding a minority opinion around this place!


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## LA Resident (Aug 19, 2010)

frugalist said:


> A lot of the comments so far are a variation of "no lock is 100% secure - a determined thief will get into your room." Agreed. But isn't this a little like thinking "since a determined thief can pick the lock on my home's front door, I'm not going to bother locking it when I go out." One thing a lock does is deter the casual, snatch & grab guy from getting a quick score. This is as true on a train as it is at home. Granted, you have a lot more to lose if a thief breaks into your home. But, it would still make for a bad day if someone who knew I wasn't in my room (because he saw me enter the dining room and sit down to eat) walked back to my car and grabbed something even though it was casually hidden under a pillow or coat on a seat. And a "determined thief" standing in the hall working on the lock, even if for just a few seconds, will draw a bit more attention that a guy ducking behind the drawn curtain.
> 
> I've read a lot of personal anecdotes and conjecture about the lack of a problem. But do you think if there was an alleged theft onboard, the conductor would get on the PA and announce it and ask the thief to please return the stolen goods? I think it would be kept as quiet as possible. When you're on a cruise, you don't hear of thefts, assaults or other crimes committed on board. The cruise company wants to keep those incidents as quiet as possible. To do otherwise would burst the illusion of being on a safe getaway, far from the problems of the big, bad city. I'm sure Amtrak would want to keep news of a possible crime onboard as quiet as possible too. So I'd like to throw out the possibility that maybe -- just maybe -- thefts might possibly be a tad more frequent than a lot of us on here think.
> 
> ...


No, pre-Amtrak sleepers did not have locks, but the doors did close completely when you left without sometimes sliding back open.

In more than 60 rides on sleepers in the US, the only time I ever had anything taken was a book, of all things, on the Super Chief from a roomette in 1971 when I was a student. I notified the conductor, and about an hour later he turned up with it! A crew member had pilfered it!

On sleepers I've ridden in Germany (City Nite Trains) and the Czech Republic, the doors do lock and your key is a magnetic swipe card.

Most times on Amtrak, I follow the good advice posted here several times (the recent I think in a discussion duct tape) and tape the curtain all the way across when I go out. That way, it doesn't matter if the door slides open or not, the curtain stays affixed with the tape.


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## alanh (Aug 19, 2010)

There's supposed to be a detent that keeps the door closed, but obviously on some it's worn out or out of adjustment, so the acceleration/deceleration of the train can make the door slide open. It appears the original design (at least on the Superliners) did have a latch that could be opened from the outside; they were replaced by the time I started riding so I don't have experience with it, or know why it was replaced.

The options are either a traditional key lock, or a hotel-style swipe card. Keys have the advantage of being simple and requiring no power, but managing the keys is a pain. People will lose or walk off with them, and they can be copied.

Swipe cards are easier to manage, but they have to have the machine to record the cards and the mechanisms have to be rugged enough for train conditions (vibration, bouncing, etc.). Due to the narrow halls, the readers can't stick out or they'll get whacked by people walking by.

Hotel-style ones have lithium batteries so they don't require external power, but do have to have the batteries replaced.

FWIW, the sleeper I took from Moscow to St. Petersburg only locked from inside. Me and my companion were also paired with two strangers in the 4-bunk room. We kept valuables either with us or in the storage bin under the lower bunk while we were sleeping (can't be opened without lifting the bunk).


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## AlanB (Aug 19, 2010)

daxomni said:


> frugalist said:
> 
> 
> > Can they at least design doors that will not slide open while we're out?
> ...


Yes, they can. In fact the original locking mechanisms on the Viewliner cars did just that. The door latched closed when you slid it closed. To lock it one then turned a small knob. But without regard to whether or not you locked the door, it would remain closed until you pressed on the lever to release the catch.

The demise of that lock in favor of the type now found and also found on the Superliners was two fold. One, far too many passengers couldn't seem to figure out how to actually work the catch. The lever pivoted at the bottom, so you needed to push near the top to actually make it move. Not to brag, but I personally probably rescued at least 4 or 5 people who were frantically and in some cases with great panic, trying to get out of their rooms. And I'm quite certain that the attendants resuced many people themselves.

The second issue is the one that always seem to crop up with Amtrak, money. Those lock were expensive to fix and replace when they broke. So back during the glidepath years where Amtrak didn't spend money on maintenance, those locks were replaced with the far cheaper type found on the trains now.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 19, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> Maybe we need an answer to this question. Pre-Amtrak did any of the US passenger train sleeping cars have door locks?


No


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 19, 2010)

LA Resident said:


> On sleepers I've ridden in Germany (City Nite Trains) and the Czech Republic, the doors do lock and your key is a magnetic swipe card.


So even the Czech Republic is eclipsing our trains? Interesting. Can you comment on how ticket prices compare to what we pay on Amtrak?



alanh said:


> FWIW, the sleeper I took from Moscow to St. Petersburg only locked from inside. Me and my companion were also paired with two strangers in the 4-bunk room.


Yeah, I don't think public multi-ticket bunks are the issue here. 



AlanB said:


> I personally probably rescued at least 4 or 5 people who were frantically and in some cases with great panic, trying to get out of their rooms. And I'm quite certain that the attendants resuced many people themselves.


I'm not sure what to say to this. Perhaps the SCA didn't bother explaining the mechanism clearly. Or maybe these people simply weren't sharp enough to understand what they were told. In any case I don't think we should waste time trying to design our trains to be idiot proof. If the ADA room needs to remain unlocked so be it, but I believe the rest of the rooms would benefit from a higher standard than we currently accept. Doors that shut properly from outside would be a great start. Doors that can be locked from the outside would be a great feature for new car deliveries. In order to address the issue of passengers who are unable to understand or use the locking mechanism Amtrak could make it an option to be enabled or disabled. Those who don't want it or can't understand it can leave their doors unlocked and the rest of us can receive the (real or false) peace of mind we get from knowing someone needs more than a spare second and a flick of an empty hand to access our compartment.


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## TVRM610 (Aug 19, 2010)

alanh said:


> Hotel-style ones have lithium batteries so they don't require external power, but do have to have the batteries replaced.


Now see this is an actual productive piece of information. Power is no longer an issue then. That makes total sense.. All the hotels I've stayed in have never had the locks plugged into an outlet! 

So in all reality Amtrak could probably just call the company that makes these for the European trains and order a bunch and use them. Now will they? I'm certain not, and I'm fine with that. ha.

Does VIA use this on any of the trains?


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## MrFSS (Aug 19, 2010)

LA Resident said:


> Most times on Amtrak, I follow the good advice posted here several times (the recent I think in a discussion duct tape) and tape the curtain all the way across when I go out. That way, it doesn't matter if the door slides open or not, the curtain stays affixed with the tape.


And, as I have mentioned several times in threads past, I place a small strip of tape on the door frame to the door itself, up at the top somewhere. It keeps the door from sliding open when it shouldn't.


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## J-1 3235 (Aug 19, 2010)

FWIW, last fall when I traveled on VIA's Ocean to Halifax, the Renaissance sleeper had door locks. I believe the key was the size of a credit card, but had holes in a certain pattern, not a magnetic strip. The attendant handed me the keys (2) and retrieved them at the end of the journey.

The door was hinged, not a slider.

Mike


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## FriskyFL (Aug 19, 2010)

This sounds like a solution in search of a problem.


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## the_traveler (Aug 19, 2010)

J-1 3235 said:


> FWIW, last fall when I traveled on VIA's Ocean to Halifax, the Renaissance sleeper had door locks. I believe the key was the size of a credit card, but had holes in a certain pattern, not a magnetic strip. The attendant handed me the keys (2) and retrieved them at the end of the journey.
> 
> *The door was hinged, not a slider.*


There you go!






Now all Amtrak had to do is come up with $xxx,xxx,xxx so they can retrofit all the door from sliders to hinged doors on *ALL* the sleepers. Then all Amtrak has to come up with the $xxx,xxx,xxx so they can install locks on *EVERY* door!





I still would rather see Amtrak use that same $x,xxx,xxx,xxx to buy new cars so that they can expand the network!


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## frugalist (Aug 19, 2010)

J-1 3235 said:


> FWIW, last fall when I traveled on VIA's Ocean to Halifax, the Renaissance sleeper had door locks. I believe the key was the size of a credit card, but had holes in a certain pattern, not a magnetic strip. The attendant handed me the keys (2) and retrieved them at the end of the journey.
> 
> The door was hinged, not a slider.
> 
> Mike


Based on your post, I did some research on the VIA Rail Canada website. While it's encouraging to see that the Renaissance cars on The Ocean have door locks that can be locked from the outside, I couldn't find these cars available on any other train in the VIA Rail Canada fleet. Are these cars just being introduced into the fleet?

I did a test booking for a Cabin for 2 to see how their fares compared with Amtrak's for a similar trip. Montreal to Halifax on The Ocean is about 23 hours. The description of the room can be found here http://www.viarail.ca/en/resources/cabin-two-montreal-halifax. For August 25 the fare for 2 passengers in a Cabin for 2 is Can$991.04 with meals or Can$898.48 without meals. On Amtrak, the Silver Meteor from Miami to Washington, DC is also about 23 hours. For August 25 the fare for 2 passengers in a Roomette is US$669.00 and in a Bedroom is US$1,253.00. Comparing the room details, the Renaissance Car Cabin for 2 is about the same dimensions as the Amtrak Roomette.

For a single traveler, the cost comparison becomes a lot closer. On The Ocean on August 25, a Cabin for 2 is Can$570.02 with meals or Can$516.63 without meals. On Amtrak's Silver Meteor between Miami and Washington, DC on August 25, a roomette for 1 passenger is US$547.00 and a bedroom is US$1,131.00.


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## AlanB (Aug 20, 2010)

daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > I personally probably rescued at least 4 or 5 people who were frantically and in some cases with great panic, trying to get out of their rooms. And I'm quite certain that the attendants resuced many people themselves.
> ...


Just to be clear here, these door couldn't really be locked from outside, at least not without a small screwdriver and the knowledge of what to do.

The issue that these people were having was understanding how the catch system that would hold the door closed worked.

And alas, we do have to design our trains to be idiot proof. Having frantic passengers that feel that they are trapped in the room doesn't help repeat business. Having passengers that panic so badly that they start taking out windows or breaking windows would be even worse.

And as Whooz can tell you, he watched an idiot in action once on a train. The girl said to her friends, "ooh, let me pull down the window shade." And then she proceeded to yank on the red, clearly marked, emergency release handle for the window.


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## AlanB (Aug 20, 2010)

frugalist said:


> Based on your post, I did some research on the VIA Rail Canada website. While it's encouraging to see that the Renaissance cars on The Ocean have door locks that can be locked from the outside, I couldn't find these cars available on any other train in the VIA Rail Canada fleet. Are these cars just being introduced into the fleet?


Those cars are only available on the runs in the east. They were originally built for trains in Europe and went unused, so VIA picked them up for a decent price. But there are not enough to equip all of their trains.


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## DKpartyguy (Aug 20, 2010)

I would like it if the doors to the sleepers could be locked from the outside. It would just add an extra sense of security as far as leaving personal items in the roomette, bedrooms,etc. I don't really travel with any expensive electronics or a laptop, so all I do is make sure I keep my wallet and cell phone with me at all times.

But I have seen people in the sleeper cars leave all sorts of things right out in the open.

On one recent trip, I walked past a roomette, and a woman had left her pocketbook on the seat, with credit cards and cash clearly visible!!! What was she thinking??? Anyone could have easily stolen it.

Riders from coach can easily walk into the sleeper cars, especially on trains where the SCA is missing or not around. One should just use common sense, and if you leave somethign of value in the room, keep it well out of sight.

So, it would be nice if perhaps on new trains the door would lock from the outside.

David


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## the_traveler (Aug 20, 2010)

DKpartyguy said:


> Riders from coach can easily walk into the sleeper cars, especially on trains where the SCA is missing or not around. One should just use common sense, and if you leave somethign of value in the room, keep it well out of sight.


Not without (at least on most trains) walking thru the Dining Car first! But I do agree to use common sense (which is not all that common



) and to keep valuables out of plain sight!


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## NS VIA FAN (Aug 28, 2010)

I’ve travelled many years in sleeping cars on both Amtrak and VIA and have never had a problem with theft of any item......even travelling in the old style open-section accommodations that VIA still sells. But I can appreciate those who are apprehensive about leaving things unattended.

If Amtrak were to install locks, a system similar to what Marine Atlantic uses for the Cabin doors on their ferries between Nova Scotia & Newfoundland might work. Small and compact.

When checking in, you get a Boarding Card/Key Card......a credit card size piece of cardboard stock with a magnetic strip on the back all in a 2 1/2” x 4 1/2” ticket folder......fits easily in your pocket or wallet. Just swipe it through the lock mechanism on the door to open.......They’re about the same size as the tickets that Transits Systems use in turnstiles.

At the end of the trip, there’s nothing to return. The magnetic code on the strip is now void.....just throw it away or keep it as your ticket receipt.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 31, 2010)

AlanB said:


> And alas, we do have to design our trains to be idiot proof.


This is where we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Adult idiots should be allowed to harm and kill themselves instead of being constantly protected from their own stupidity. Which of course brings us to legal complications. I know many folks think that any moron can sue any large company or corporate entity and win a huge settlement. But in my experience many of the really big judgments we read about idiots winning against businesses are severely reduced or thrown out on appeal or are simply erroneously reported to begin with. The threat of a moron winning a judgement for their own stupidity is highly overblown after decades worth of anti-consumer tort reform. Amtrak has been penalized severely in the past, but from my perspective it seems to be their own boneheaded decisions that cause most of their problems. If they were just a little more careful they'd probably have fewer and smaller legal judgments without having to babysit their passengers.

One idea I thought of on my trip last week was using the hotel room safe system. It's open and unlocked until you choose a passcode and lock it. I believe it runs on a battery that doesn't need replacing often. There are moving parts in the hotel safes I've used but a similar locking function could be provided by electric magnets fed by HEP. Under normal conditions the doors are essentially locked without additional moving parts but if there is a derailment or crash that interrupts HEP the doors would become unlocked. Naturally it wouldn't be fortified military style and a determined attack could still gain access but for most cases it would be secure and safe enough to prevent casual entries. Even successful entries could be linked to a notification panel in the SCA's room. These are just some brainstorming ideas so there are likely to be holes in the concept that will need to be addressed. The main issue to me is that there are so many potential options that it seems odd Amtrak has decided to employ absolutely none of them.


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## Jeremy (Aug 31, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> <snip>
> 
> Except for #27/28 when the #807/808 coach is carried between CHI and MSP, coach passengers are not allowed in sleeping cars. Most trains have the Dining Car placed between the sleepers and coach. And I *HAVE* been questioned by the Dining Car staff *AND* the SCA when I've entered the sleepers and they did not recognize me!


I'll be in the Portland sleeper on that train in 3 weeks; will let you know how it goes. We will be 'at risk' from those terrible MSP coach people (criminals one and all, I once lived there  ) for a maximum of 9 hours. I'm sure it will work out OK.

Jeremy


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## AlanB (Aug 31, 2010)

daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And alas, we do have to design our trains to be idiot proof.
> ...


So allowing people to break down doors and kick out windows in their panic doesn't strike you as a problem? Even a financial one, since now Amtrak has to fix those things, with our money.



daxomni said:


> Which of course brings us to legal complications. I know many folks think that any moron can sue any large company or corporate entity and win a huge settlement. But in my experience many of the really big judgments we read about idiots winning against businesses are severely reduced or thrown out on appeal or are simply erroneously reported to begin with. The threat of a moron winning a judgement for their own stupidity is highly overblown after decades worth of anti-consumer tort reform. Amtrak has been penalized severely in the past, but from my perspective it seems to be their own boneheaded decisions that cause most of their problems. If they were just a little more careful they'd probably have fewer and smaller legal judgments without having to babysit their passengers.


Even if Amtrak were more careful about things, it would still cost money. It costs money just to defend yourself. In fact, sometimes that why things are settled, because that's cheaper!

And losing a lawsuit because you didn't have a sign that said "moron, you might get electrocuted if you stand on top of a railcar in this yard with overhead wires" even though the idiots walked by multiple signs that said "NO TRESSPASSING" hardly strikes me as a failure on Amtrak's part.

People love to sue about anything in this country.

Heck, 20 years ago Disney employeed 50 people whose sole job was to follow known accident fakers around their parks. And back then, there was only the Magic Kindom and Epcot, and far less sueing going on in this country. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they've more than doubled that special police force.



daxomni said:


> One idea I thought of on my trip last week was using the hotel room safe system. It's open and unlocked until you choose a passcode and lock it. I believe it runs on a battery that doesn't need replacing often. There are moving parts in the hotel safes I've used but a similar locking function could be provided by electric magnets fed by HEP. Under normal conditions the doors are essentially locked without additional moving parts but if there is a derailment or crash that interrupts HEP the doors would become unlocked. Naturally it wouldn't be fortified military style and a determined attack could still gain access but for most cases it would be secure and safe enough to prevent casual entries. Even successful entries could be linked to a notification panel in the SCA's room. These are just some brainstorming ideas so there are likely to be holes in the concept that will need to be addressed. The main issue to me is that there are so many potential options that it seems odd Amtrak has decided to employ absolutely none of them.


Great, more alarms going off in the middle of the night as the poor SCA is trying to get their contract guaranteed 4 hours of sleep.

And frankly, I'd much rather that Amtrak spend that money on better cleaning of the cars, more staff on the train, or even towards fixing the vacuum problems on the Superliners; long before worrying about whether or not my room locks. Heck, I couldn't even lock my room on VIA's premier service the Canadian! Clearly not a priority.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 1, 2010)

AlanB said:


> So allowing people to break down doors and kick out windows in their panic doesn't strike you as a problem? Even a financial one, since now Amtrak has to fix those things, with our money.


This seems like a simple fix to me. As I've already explained, Amtrak could simply make the activation of the locking mechanism optional. The idiots probably wouldn't miss the fact they can't lock their doors and the preventive self-reliant types get their extra piece of mind.



AlanB said:


> Even if Amtrak were more careful about things, it would still cost money. It costs money just to defend yourself. In fact, sometimes that why things are settled, because that's cheaper!


Amtrak is already spending money defending themselves today and they will continue to do so in the future. I fail to see how being a bit more careful about their legal strategies would hurt them at this point.



AlanB said:


> And losing a lawsuit because you didn't have a sign that said "moron, you might get electrocuted if you stand on top of a railcar in this yard with overhead wires" even though the idiots walked by multiple signs that said "NO TRESSPASSING" hardly strikes me as a failure on Amtrak's part. People love to sue about anything in this country.


You seem to be on autopilot here. You know what Americans like to do even _more_ than sue? Endlessly ***** about theoretical consumer lawsuits that would rarely be successful in real life. The main reason we have so many idiot-level signs is not because any idiot can sue and win. It's because it's easier to just slap a warning on something than to rethink a design or process. Lack of innovation and motivation are the primary culprits here. For instance, other more progressive countries make their driving tests harder and also work to remove or prevent grade crossings which easily avoid future collisions. Meanwhile America lets just about every idiot and feeble geezer on the road and leaves our original grade crossing intact while adding numerous government-funded signs, bells, lights and gates that our citizens simply ignore. Then we act shocked and angry when our transportation systems continue to suffer from high numbers of completely preventable collisions. And frankly, it's getting old.



AlanB said:


> Heck, 20 years ago Disney employeed 50 people whose sole job was to follow known accident fakers around their parks. And back then, there was only the Magic Kindom and Epcot, and far less sueing going on in this country. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they've more than doubled that special police force.


It's probably handled more by cameras than live agents these days. A quick scan of legal actions involving Disney parks implies they have won or successfully sought to dismiss most of the serious cases brought against them. On those occasions where they lost it seems quite possible they were at least partially negligent and I'm thankful any guests who suffered as a result of reasonably preventable harm were able to seek some form of compensation.



AlanB said:


> Great, more alarms going off in the middle of the night as the poor SCA is trying to get their contract guaranteed 4 hours of sleep.


First you worry about passengers becoming trapped through their own idiocy and then you worry about the SCA's being alerted to doors being forced open. It's becoming pretty clear that no answer is good enough for you. Sheesh.



AlanB said:


> And frankly, I'd much rather that Amtrak spend that money on better cleaning of the cars, more staff on the train, or even towards fixing the vacuum problems on the Superliners; long before worrying about whether or not my room locks.


Alan, I don't see any pressing reason to start adding locks to Amtrak's current rolling stock. Just like I don't see any pressing reason _not_ to add them to orders for new car deliveries. It's certainly not my highest priority for Amtrak but since it _is_ the topic at hand I didn't think it was necessary to explain that.


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## amtrakwolverine (Sep 1, 2010)

A simple solution to keep doors from sliding open when no one is in the room is magnets built into the door and a metal plate for the magnet to stick to to keep the door shut.


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## AlanB (Sep 1, 2010)

daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > So allowing people to break down doors and kick out windows in their panic doesn't strike you as a problem? Even a financial one, since now Amtrak has to fix those things, with our money.
> ...


And what makes you think that the "idiots" won't want to lock the door? Or do you plan to let the attendant decide in the first 30 seconds of meeting the new occupants whether or not to turn on the locks? And then once they realize that others can lock their doors and they can't, that'll open up a whole new can of worms.



daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And losing a lawsuit because you didn't have a sign that said "moron, you might get electrocuted if you stand on top of a railcar in this yard with overhead wires" even though the idiots walked by multiple signs that said "NO TRESSPASSING" hardly strikes me as a failure on Amtrak's part. People love to sue about anything in this country.
> ...


The example that I provided isn't a theoretical lawsuit; it's real! The kids climbed over a fence into an active rail yard, ignored signs that said NO TRESSPASSING, and then proceeded to climb on top of a box car, whereupon one of them got fried by coming into contact with the catenary. What better engineering do you propose to solve that problem?

And that idiot won money because even though he was in violation of multiple laws and had deliberately ignored warnign signs and a fence, there was no sign that warned him that he might get electrocuted for being an idiot. That was the pivotal point in the entire case. The jury didn't seem to care that he was tresspassing. They didn't care that he climbed over a fence that was clearly designed to keep him out. This kid would have ignored any sign warning him that he might get electrocuted, after all he didn't care about all the other warnings. Yet because there was no sign, he won money.

That said, I do agree that the crossing issue makes no sense. Short of being able to prove that the gates had failed to activate, families shouldn't even be able to set foot in court when the warning signs have clearly been ignored.


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## AlanB (Sep 1, 2010)

daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Heck, 20 years ago Disney employeed 50 people whose sole job was to follow known accident fakers around their parks. And back then, there was only the Magic Kindom and Epcot, and far less sueing going on in this country. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they've more than doubled that special police force.
> ...


Yes, there are cameras too, but they still employee people as the cameras can't be everywhere and see every angle.



daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Great, more alarms going off in the middle of the night as the poor SCA is trying to get their contract guaranteed 4 hours of sleep.
> ...


You said nothing about a door being forced open, you said:



> Even successful entries could be linked to a notification panel in the SCA's room.


 Hence my comment.


daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And frankly, I'd much rather that Amtrak spend that money on better cleaning of the cars, more staff on the train, or even towards fixing the vacuum problems on the Superliners; long before worrying about whether or not my room locks.
> ...


You don't see a cost for installing them in new cars? You don't see increased costs for maintaining something that most likely will be rattled to death in those new cars?


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## Donctor (Sep 1, 2010)

In Western Europe, I have received a keycard every time I've travelled in sleeper.


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## Cristobal (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread or not but another way to improve your "security" while in a sleeper is by limiting the amount of traffic past your room by choosing your location. I'll be in room 13, car 1432 in a few weeks time and I'll pretty much guarantee that I'll see much less foot traffic than I will on my return trip in room 5, car 1130. 

I certainly didn't plan it that way. However, for the extra-paranoid, calling :help: and requesting a room at the far end of the sleepers (and downstairs if on a Superliner) would certainly reduce the number of passers-by (and possible sticky-fingered fellow pax  ).

BTW, I'm far from being a veteran Amtrak traveler but I do have a few LD trips under my belt and I have never felt the need for anything more than "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" measures for things like a laptop.


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## dgatwood (Jan 9, 2011)

daxomni said:


> I'm not sure what to say to this. Perhaps the SCA didn't bother explaining the mechanism clearly. Or maybe these people simply weren't sharp enough to understand what they were told. In any case I don't think we should waste time trying to design our trains to be idiot proof. If the ADA room needs to remain unlocked so be it, but I believe the rest of the rooms would benefit from a higher standard than we currently accept. Doors that shut properly from outside would be a great start. Doors that can be locked from the outside would be a great feature for new car deliveries. In order to address the issue of passengers who are unable to understand or use the locking mechanism Amtrak could make it an option to be enabled or disabled. Those who don't want it or can't understand it can leave their doors unlocked and the rest of us can receive the (real or false) peace of mind we get from knowing someone needs more than a spare second and a flick of an empty hand to access our compartment.


Sorry for bumping an old thread, but I saw this and thought of a latch that would be nearly idiot-proof and could provide security, too. Normally, when you open a sliding door, you grab a handle (usually an indentation in the door) and pull it sideways. So make that entire handle operate the latch. That way, the natural action one would take when sliding the door open would also unlatch the latch, allowing it to open.

The handle would be a floating plate outside the door (with appropriate tracks on the top and bottom). Internally, that plate would be attached to a bar with teeth on one side (and guides) that rotates a gear. The other side of the gear would be welded to a hook that swings down and hooks into a slot in the doorway (like a sliding bathroom door lock). Solving the problem of the catch bending the door plate is largely left as an exercise for the reader, but would probably involve using a thick, wedge-shaped piece of metal made out of something harder than brass (and leaving a lot of play while the door is closed so that it still works even if it bends in spite of your efforts).

With such a design, you could also easily add an electronic locking mechanism to it. Upon entering the right code or swiping a card or whatever, the lock could just charge an electromagnet to lift the latch bar instead of lifting a lock pin or rotating something inside a traditional lock. It shouldn't be very hard to modify existing mechanisms to do that, I wouldn't think.

My guess? Probably about $15 apiece if you outsource manufacturing to China. I'd expect the labor for installing them to greatly exceed the manufacturing costs....


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## Spokker (Jan 9, 2011)

It would probably cost less to replace everything that has been stolen from sleepers than retrofit the entire fleet with locks.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 10, 2011)

frugalist said:


> I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect. I've said my peace on this issue, so let's just agree to disagree. When I take my laptop with me on my next LD trip, I will take it with me in my backpack when I go to the diner or the lounge. Am I paranoid? I'm not a psychologist, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion.
> 
> I haven't had occasion to stay in a hotel since I got my laptop, but I wouldn't leave my laptop in my hotel room either.


If you are that concerned, fly. I know of no initiative to change it, the number of incidents are dimishingly small or there would be more of drive to change it.


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## Tumbleweed (Jan 10, 2011)

OK,let's apply the KISS principle here......why not just install a hasp of sorts on the door, or maybe an interior storage space, and people could choose to carry a small padlock to secure same.....


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## rrdude (Jan 10, 2011)

Tumbleweed said:


> OK,let's apply the KISS principle here......why not just install a hasp of sorts on the door, or maybe an interior storage space, and people could choose to carry a small padlock to secure same.....


And invariably on the first day the hasps are installed, someone, across the Amtrak network of travelers, would say, "Oh crap, I left the key INSIDE the room,...Mr. Amtrak SCA, it's now YOUR responsibility to get that darn door open......" resulting in damage to the door, as they use the emergency axe to get in.........

Have I become jaded or what?


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## the_traveler (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm much more concerned about theft of things from my car parked at the mall than from theft from something from my room on a train!





Hey - why not require every mall or shopping center in the country to install a secure lock for every car that parks in their parking lot?


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## the_traveler (Jan 10, 2011)

Jeremy said:


> We will be 'at risk' from those terrible MSP coach people (criminals one and all, I once lived there  ) for a maximum of 9 hours.


Those MSP people are the *WORST*! You just can't trust them!


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## Peter KG6LSE (Jan 10, 2011)

on my trip out to home I had . close to $10000 of gear on me.I just hide it under the bed.. or seat. ii never leave my coach stuff alone at stops ... and I check my stuff for disturbinces..peter


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## the_traveler (Jan 10, 2011)

Peter KG6LSE said:


> on my trip out to home I had . close to $10000 of gear on me.


When's your next trip?



Hey - I'm on that train too!


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## Ryan (Jan 10, 2011)

rrdude said:


> Tumbleweed said:
> 
> 
> > OK,let's apply the KISS principle here......why not just install a hasp of sorts on the door, or maybe an interior storage space, and people could choose to carry a small padlock to secure same.....
> ...


Between that and access to the room in the event of an emergency, etc, etc... Lots of reason why that's no good on the door at least.

Not a lot of space on the inside for a locking interior compartment, but I guess that wouldn't be a bad idea.

Still looks like a solution looking for a problem to me...


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## jis (Jan 10, 2011)

Tumbleweed said:


> OK,let's apply the KISS principle here......why not just install a hasp of sorts on the door, or maybe an interior storage space, and people could choose to carry a small padlock to secure same.....


Everyone already has an internal storage space. It is called their suitcase or rollaboard or whatever. All that one needs to do is take along a bike chain and secure it to some point inside the compartment and lock the darned bag. Why is this so complicated? Even the villagers in India have figured this much out and it is common practice to just chain secure locked trunks and what nots to the seat/berth in those 2nd Class 3 Tier Sleepers, overflowing with people some of whom are much more likely to decamp with something than anyone in the outright luxurious sleepers in the US that costs an arm and a leg to get into. Why is it that the level of common sense seems to be inversely proportional to the amount of luxury that people can afford?


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## The Davy Crockett (Jan 10, 2011)

I've never had a problem with stuff "growing legs" when I travel in a room. That said, there are certain precautions I take:

First, I travel light. For example, my camara is a nice, but small, digital. I try to not bring things I can live without. If I must bring a computer it is 'travel friendly' in that it is compact and not my good one.

Second, I bring a daypack with me, which I never let out of my sight, and in which I put anything I would really hate to lose. I know some people can't be bothered, but I would not totally trust a locked door anyway.

Third, I don't flaunt what I do bring, and I dress in a manner which does not scream MONEY!

Fourth, 'nicer' things that I do keep in my room, when I'm not in it, are out of sight, locked in my small 'in room' suitcase, which I put either in the Superliner closet or in the overhead storage space in the Viewliner.

While I appreciate the desire to be able to lock the room from outside - I've had it myself - the reality is that Amtrak is not going to install locks any time in the near future. Some sort of low tech solution will create more problems than it would solve and a high tech solution is just going to cost too much money. That is the reality. One has no choice but to deal with it.


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > To paraphrase Groucho Marx (everyone under 50, pull-up Google), I do not trust any group that has me as a member.
> ...


I like the way you think!!! I do exactly the same thing when I'm in a sleeper!


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## Gord (Jan 10, 2011)

AlanB said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > buck1108 said:
> ...


I had a bad experience getting locked into a Viewliner roomette with the old locks, being a bit claustrophobic, I wasn't happy. They were eventually able to get it open from the outside. The hook lifting mechanism in the old handle was not the greatest. The traditional Adlake-type, external hook now being used has been around for decades and is pretty much foolproof. Other people on the car had the same problem and I have heard other people mention being locked in. This may be why they are being changed.

Gord


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## FunNut (Jan 10, 2011)

Many hotel rooms and cruise ship cabins now have digital safes, the combination is easily cleared and re-set by a new occupant. It wouldn't be that difficult for rooms on a train to have similar combination locks. I expect the issue here is the cost to put the locks into all the doors.


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## Gord (Jan 11, 2011)

frugalist said:


> J-1 3235 said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW, last fall when I traveled on VIA's Ocean to Halifax, the Renaissance sleeper had door locks. I believe the key was the size of a credit card, but had holes in a certain pattern, not a magnetic strip. The attendant handed me the keys (2) and retrieved them at the end of the journey.
> ...


The punch card door locks came with the Renn equipment which were originally Nighstar cars intended for overnight service (which never materialized),through the Chunnel. Via's Budd sleepers use the standard and proven Adlake, external hook latch. The Renn sleepers being European are narrower and are not all that great for larger pasengers. The passageways in the sleepers are very tight even for an average-sized person. I find the Budd equipment far better, overall.

Gord


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## troublebound (Jan 11, 2011)

Heck, I usually don't even lock my house doors unless I'm gone more than 4 days, As far as the roomettes, never saw a need for a lock. Maybe I'm not jaded enough.


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