# Did railroads used to run in snow more than Amtrak.



## Larry H. (Dec 23, 2008)

I am wondering if the old Empire Builder or any major railroad was so prone to fail in snow as the system is apparently now? I have old ads from rail roads about getting through in any weather, Foul Weather Friends the Kansas City Southern called the people that rode when you couldn't fly. Anyone remember for sure those days, or have factual reports of that earlier time? It just seems way too many are inconvenienced by what is supposed to be the transportation that moves in any weather? My guess is the equipment in the old days was never allowed to freeze up and the tracks were kept free of snow in all by the absolute worst weather?


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## the_traveler (Dec 23, 2008)

My guess is that "in the old days" the cars were heavyweight, not the streamlined or lightweight cars found now, and were much less likely to freeze up.


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## spacecadet (Dec 23, 2008)

the_traveler said:


> My guess is that "in the old days" the cars were heavyweight, not the streamlined or lightweight cars found now, and were much less likely to freeze up.


Ha! Well, it depends on what you mean by "the old days". If you mean before cars were even heated, then yeah. That's going back like 100 years, though.

When cars were steam heated, they'd freeze up constantly in extremely cold weather. That applies to both Amtrak and the railroads they inherited their equipment from.

As for snow, Amtrak trains still routinely run in heavy snow... not sure what's up with the EB lately (if anything's up) but I have gone through five feet of snow on the California Zephyr before. I'm not sure what the deal is with the P42's, but Amtrak used to equip all of its northern and western engines with snow plows up front in winter. I think the P42's have permanent plows.

btw, if you think things were so much better in the old days, read this! http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=40


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## Shawn (Dec 23, 2008)

Trains in the "old days" were much more prone to freezing. The steam lines would freeze and separate. Had nothing to do with "heavy-weight", etc. The Superliner cars weigh ALOT! So, no, old cars were not much better. Anytime you put cold and something that will freeze together...you have a problem.

Lately the biggest problems have been infrastructure, like switches freezing, bridges freezing open, communications problems. etc.


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## GG-1 (Dec 23, 2008)

Aloha

The real difference ...... Mahalo to modern Communications and sites like this.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 23, 2008)

The cars Amtrak inherited in 1971 were from the generation of lightweight streamlined cars. That is the generation which began being built on a slow scale in the late 30's and then booming when WW11 was over in the mid 40's

It is the generation before THAT which was heavyweight.

Keep in mind that once streamlining began plenty of heavyweight cars continued to run, sometimes both styles on the same train. Many trains from the late 30's forward had a mixture of heavyweight and lightweight cars.

The cars Amtrak inherited were lighweight cars. I cannot answer about the freezing weather angle, just the equipment.


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## JAChooChoo (Dec 23, 2008)

the_traveler said:


> My guess is that "in the old days" the cars were heavyweight, not the streamlined or lightweight cars found now, and were much less likely to freeze up.


*Pre-Amtrak, very little passenger equipment had HEP. Electrical service was usually by large 32 volt DC underbody batteries that were recharged by axle driven generators. When the train wasn't moving the batteries were draining. *


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 23, 2008)

spacecadet said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > My guess is that "in the old days" the cars were heavyweight, not the streamlined or lightweight cars found now, and were much less likely to freeze up.
> ...


Yes, that link you provided is an old railroad classic story. There was a similar article in TRAINS Magazine. In there it was captioned "The Case of the Stranded Streamliner". I believe the Perry Mason series on TV was new and thus the use of the word "case". It was a classic event which has a permanent place in railroad lore.

Kind of similar to when the southbound Federal overnight from Boston to Washington slammed into Washington Union Station which was filled with people attending President elect Eisenhower's inauguration.

Actually this event was covered on this forum not too long ago. I seem to think some thought it was the CZ but as one can see in the link you provided it was the "City of San Francisco".


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 24, 2008)

I traveled on passengers trains alot in the 1950s and 60s as a child and teenager. I traveled quite a bit in severe winter weather. I don't ever remember trains being suspended due to weather. Many times trains would run late when the weather was severe and sometimes trains would get rerouted if the lines were blocked but the trains always seemed to be there. Even in the early days of Amtrak, I was stationed at Grand Forks AFB in North Dakota from 1972-75. The Empire Builder was always running even when buses and planes were not. In last 10 years, Amtrak and host railroads seem to suspend service for any weather related concern and I am not sure why the change.


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## wayman (Dec 24, 2008)

jphjaxfl said:


> In last 10 years, Amtrak and host railroads seem to suspend service for any weather related concern and I am not sure why the change.


Insurance costs and liability fears have increased tremendously over the past ten to twenty years. These are probably closely related.


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## spacecadet (Dec 24, 2008)

jphjaxfl said:


> I traveled on passengers trains alot in the 1950s and 60s as a child and teenager. I traveled quite a bit in severe winter weather. I don't ever remember trains being suspended due to weather.


I had a thread about 1970's Amtrak consists a while back. One of the trains we talked about was the Panama Limited, which at that time was being run with nothing but Amfleet coaches. The reason was that Amtrak did not have enough HEP sleepers, and after the previous winter, when *many* trains were taken out of service due to freeze-ups, they had stopped running non-HEP equipment completely.

Whether the original railroads had better methods of keeping steam heated cars running I don't know, but steam is just water - in extremely cold temps, it's going to freeze.

Also, when Amtrak *did* (and still does) run through snow, you could bet they'd be running extremely late. Every train I've ever taken through snow has been massively late. Maybe that's another reason why they'd just rather not run if the weather is extremely bad these days.


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## Larry H. (Dec 24, 2008)

I have no proof of this, but its an educated guess. I would nearly bet that in previous history of rail travel the railroads, perhaps not as automated as today, had employees stationed along the route that manually made sure the switches were set to proper settings. Plus crews were most likely available along the route to keep the tracks clear compared to what we had today.

I make that guess by recalling a great old ad in National Geographic in the late 40's showing the passenger trains beings serviced in the yards in New York. I don't recall which railroad the ad belonged to. It showed hundreds of people swarming over the trains cleaning, stocking, repairing, servicing, every aspect of the cars getting them ready for their next run. Today they seem lucky to get the carpets cleaned and a hit an miss at other duties. Before the railroads decided they wanted out, and when the pride of the company name was still connected to its premium passenger trains, service both in the yards and on the trains was a source of pride.

Times have changed, and I think much of the troubles stem from new attitudes, lack of employees, and well, heck its a government run system.


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## jis (Dec 24, 2008)

Larry H. said:


> Times have changed, and I think much of the troubles stem from new attitudes, lack of employees, and well, heck its a government run system.


And with all its warts and flaws, it still runs a lot better than the last days of the private run system at least on the NEC <_<


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 24, 2008)

Larry H. said:


> I have no proof of this, but its an educated guess. I would nearly bet that in previous history of rail travel the railroads, perhaps not as automated as today, had employees stationed along the route that manually made sure the switches were set to proper settings. Plus crews were most likely available along the route to keep the tracks clear compared to what we had today. I make that guess by recalling a great old ad in National Geographic in the late 40's showing the passenger trains beings serviced in the yards in New York. I don't recall which railroad the ad belonged to. It showed hundreds of people swarming over the trains cleaning, stocking, repairing, servicing, every aspect of the cars getting them ready for their next run. Today they seem lucky to get the carpets cleaned and a hit an miss at other duties. Before the railroads decided they wanted out, and when the pride of the company name was still connected to its premium passenger trains, service both in the yards and on the trains was a source of pride.
> 
> Times have changed, and I think much of the troubles stem from new attitudes, lack of employees, and well, heck its a government run system.


Sounds to me like the kind of ad New York Central would have placed. If not them, then probably the Pennsylvania.


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 24, 2008)

spacecadet said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> > I traveled on passengers trains alot in the 1950s and 60s as a child and teenager. I traveled quite a bit in severe winter weather. I don't ever remember trains being suspended due to weather.
> ...


I rode the Empire Builder alot from 1972-75 in the winter during snow storms and it might run 30 min to an hour late, but never massively late. Back then the infrastructure along the route hadn't change since Great Northern operation. GN merged into BN in 1970. The crews that ran the Empire Builder and the Northcoast Hiawatha prided themselves in running as close to ontime as possible.


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## henryj (Dec 24, 2008)

The answer to this question from those of us that were here before Amtrak is that YES the railroads operated in all kinds of weather and ran their passenger trains in that weather. The passenger train up into the 50's and 60's was the most reliable form of transportation. Airlines often were delayed or cancelled because of weather as they did not have the sophisticated radar and instruments they have today. Passenger trains began their real decline with the coming of the interstate highway system and jet passenger planes. Up until then and even up until Amtrak the railroads operated their passenger trains in a first class manner. Weather might delay them but they still ran, much unlike Amtrak does today using almost any excuse to not run a train. Also, Amtrak today is dependent on the host railroads they run on. If that railroad does not clear the track in a timely fashion or closes a line then Amtrak cannot run. The NEC which today is wholly owned by Amtrak has reliable service consistent with it's past history. When severe weather comes in the form of heavy snow or torrential rains then any land based system will experience delays.


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## Larry H. (Dec 24, 2008)

The last few posters have confirmed what I recall from limited winter riding experience in the very early 60's. I had forgotten that I indeed went from New York City to St. Louis right after the record snow of like 28 inches in New York. The train was completely iced over and we never saw out for the entire trip. It was some late, but not excessively. All cars had heat and water. I think today amtrak would simply Cancel the trip.


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## PRR 60 (Dec 24, 2008)

henryj said:


> ...Passenger trains began their real decline with the coming of the interstate highway system and jet passenger planes. Up until then and even up until Amtrak the railroads operated their passenger trains in a first class manner.


I will take minor issue with the description of pre-Amtrak passenger operation as "first class". Some trains, yes. But many, particularly in the east, no. On the PRR and then the PC, the run-of-the-mill passenger train in the middle and late 1960's was pretty ratty. The term "roach coach" was not coined out of someone's imagination.

As for foul weather operation, there are several issues. First, as GG-1 stated, back in the olden days there could be multiple cancellations and huge delays and no one other than those on the train or waiting for the train would even know it. There was no internet, no reported train status, and no boards like this. Floods, avalanche threats, landslides, and blizzards did not just start happening in the last 15 years.

Also, in the 1960's the railroads had huge workforces. They could literally put an army to work to clear the tracks and switches and platforms. I used to ride the Paoli Local on the PC out of Philadelphia every day in the late 1960's and, in the snow, every interlocking had oil burning smudge pots to keep the switches clear. Those things were fueled and lighted manually. Every one of them. Today, no railroad could afford that kind of labor effort.

I think travel in foul weather is what it is. Every mode has its strengths and weaknesses. No mode is "all weather", and probably never was.


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## Montanan (Dec 24, 2008)

I think, at least in part, Larry's comment was the answer to this question. There would have been far more on-line maintenance people fifty years ago -- and there would have also been more available passenger crews, more spare equipment, more en route commissaries, and so on. Amtrak doesn't have the luxury of stationing spare crews or locomotives in places like Havre and Minot and the Twin Cities, for example, whereas the Great Northern did have those resources. And there was more spare equipment available at endpoints, so if an inbound train were substantially delayed a railroad could more easily assemble a make-up consist to avoid delaying the next day's outbound run.


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## henryj (Dec 24, 2008)

Montanan said:


> I think, at least in part, Larry's comment was the answer to this question. There would have been far more on-line maintenance people fifty years ago -- and there would have also been more available passenger crews, more spare equipment, more en route commissaries, and so on. Amtrak doesn't have the luxury of stationing spare crews or locomotives in places like Havre and Minot and the Twin Cities, for example, whereas the Great Northern did have those resources. And there was more spare equipment available at endpoints, so if an inbound train were substantially delayed a railroad could more easily assemble a make-up consist to avoid delaying the next day's outbound run.


Excellent points by both Larry and Montanan. Remember before Amtrak and the decline of rail passenger travel there were at least 7 trains running on 4 railroads from Chicago and the Midwest to the Pacific Northwest. Northern Pacific had the North Coast Limited and the Mainstreeter, GN the Empire Builder and the Western Star, Milwaukee Road the Olympian Hiawatha and UP ran the City of Portland and the Portland Rose. So if one railroad had a problem there were other options. Other routes to LA and San Francisco had similar service. The Santa Fe for instance ran the San Francisco Chief completely around the snow and mountains using the "transcon" via Barstow and up the valley in CA. Of course the North East was covered over with train service. I left Fort Polk in Louisiana in January 64 for New York and traveled through St Louis using the Eagle to St Louis and the Pennsylvania RR to New York. The Midwest and the Northeast had been hit hard with a major winter storm, yet other than being a little late everything ran fine. As was pointed out above, the railroads had the infrastructure and staff to deal with major weather events. Amtrak simply does not.


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## Larry H. (Dec 24, 2008)

We can all fault all but a very few railroads for deteriorating service into the 60's when the writing was on the wall, at least for that period in history of rail travel. That train ride I took from NY to St. Louis, was in coaches that didn't recline. The water while not frozen, just plain wasn't provided. The diner served cheap but poor meals. Yes it was a sad day for rail travel. What I am discussing is in the days when a Railroad prided them selves in providing reliable service. I can still remember some lines that would start are come to a halt all along the route so reliably that people along the routes in homes would actually set there clocks to the passing trains.

I know Amtrak is stretched. I think my thoughts are about how it could be run, and again must be run if we indeed are going to develop that system of long distance and short distance feeder routes that everyone hopes may again come to pass. A winter such as this may stop some trains or slow them, but it shouldn't be a cause for the wholesale disruption of service we are seeing this week. That in my opinion is not how it was


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 24, 2008)

On New Years eve 1970/New Years day, 1971, I traveled from Cleveland to Boston via Penn Central's no name train that was a combination of several New York Central name trains. It snowed heavily all the way from Cleveland to Boston. I had a slumbercoach room from Cleveland to Albany. I had an excellant breakfast in the dining car as we plowed through the early morning snow of upstate New York. They served freshly made corn muffins (that PRR was known for) with my eggs and ham. Before Albany, I moved from the Slumbercoach to the through coach to Boston. The Boston section carried coaches and lounge that served sandwiches and other short order foods. The snow was heavy through the Berkshires, but we were only 20 minutes late into South Station. The trip was very scenic and I was comfortable the entire trip even though it was very wintry outside.


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## Montanan (Dec 24, 2008)

I think there's one other point, too. We're now living in an age where the vast majority of travelers have cell phones, and a good many also have laptops, Blackberries, Twitter accounts, blogs, and what have you. So the stories about delays are broadcast much more readily and thoroughly. That puts the operations of Amtrak and other transportation providers under much more scrutiny, and makes it easier for stories to get sensationalized.


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## spacecadet (Dec 24, 2008)

Larry H. said:


> A winter such as this may stop some trains or slow them, but it shouldn't be a cause for the wholesale disruption of service we are seeing this week. That in my opinion is not how it was


One of the great resources for looking up this kind of trivia is Time.com, which has its entire archive online. It's not going to have info on every little train cancellation but I figured it might have some articles on big snowstorms and "wholesale disruptions". I searched for "train snow" and came up with a bunch of irrelevant stuff, but also some relevant stuff that mentioned train service generally being disrupted because of snow. Some examples, a few more directly about trains than others (just search for those words in the articles):

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,790680,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,797073,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,852119,00.html

Great quote from that third one:

"In New York, the rail jam was the worst. Huge drifts stalled trains in the open country. Passengers had to wade through drifts to nearby farmhouses to spend the night."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,854190,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,794029,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,855891,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,780088,00.html

"Trains were halted, one after another. When the storm ended there were six passenger trains in the yards at Omaha, eight in Ogden, five at Salt Lake City, five at Cheyenne, six stalled between Sidney, Neb. and Cheyenne, Wyo."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,893900,00.html

"The New York Central reported its long-haul trains running between New York and Chicago as much as 20 hours late. Each delay produced a paralyzing chain reaction.... In jampacked stations along the coast, schedules and timetables became meaningless. Only a few trains held to the luxury of dining cars—and these soon ran out of everything, including water."

Keep in mind the above-referenced storm produced on average about 12 inches of snow.

So yes, I'd say this used to happen in the past, just as it does now.


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## Russell (Dec 24, 2008)

Larry H. said:


> I am wondering if the old Empire Builder or any major railroad was so prone to fail in snow as the system is apparently now? I have old ads from rail roads about getting through in any weather, Foul Weather Friends the Kansas City Southern called the people that rode when you couldn't fly. Anyone remember for sure those days, or have factual reports of that earlier time? It just seems way too many are inconvenienced by what is supposed to be the transportation that moves in any weather? My guess is the equipment in the old days was never allowed to freeze up and the tracks were kept free of snow in all by the absolute worst weather?


You certainly have a good question, and one we are not going to receive an answer from Amtrak any time soon. Amtrak cancelled my Chirstmas Eve trip on the Lakeshore Ltd. to Chicago (and on to Palm Springs, CA) at 4:00 p.m. yesterday, throwing out months of planning and paying for an expensive private bedroom for the entire 4 days. Amtrak provides absolutely NO help, alternate travel, nothing. The trains are all full this time of year. The 1-800 Customer Relations is a disaster, and has no idea what is going on (they are not provided up-to-date information). On top of that, I made the mistake of ticketing my trip Monday evening, thereby requiring I take a day off work today to travel from White Plains where there are NO ticketing agencies for Amtrak, to New York Penn Station and wait in line for over one hour to receive a refund on my credit card so I can use the two grand for (hopefully) alternate plans. There is no first class ticket counter window, and the much quicker Acela Express line access was denied to me, so I waited in line with dozens and dozens of people who are ticketing their train travel (smart not to ticket until the day of travel so a cancelled itinerary can be refunded over the phone).

Ultimately I learned that Amtrak cancelled the Lakeshore Ltd. today because of a Flood Watch -- NOT a Flood Warning -- along Lake Erie secondary to high winds along the Lake's coastline. Now they are cancelling trips based upon a "Weather Watch" and NOT on a Flood Warning, the latter meaning that the certainty is much higher. I've never seen anything like Amtrak's terrible, misinformed and uninformed customer relations office, Amtrak's lousy ticket counter service at New York Penn with no first class ticket line and the much quicker Acela Express counter not available to first class rail passengers! There are long waits at the 800 number and no help once you do get through.

I know one thing, I'll never trust another important holiday trip to Amtrak again, and I'm cancelling out my four (4) remaining trips that are all paid for 2009. No way I'm going through this again.


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## Russell (Dec 24, 2008)

Montanan said:


> I think there's one other point, too. We're now living in an age where the vast majority of travelers have cell phones, and a good many also have laptops, Blackberries, Twitter accounts, blogs, and what have you. So the stories about delays are broadcast much more readily and thoroughly. That puts the operations of Amtrak and other transportation providers under much more scrutiny, and makes it easier for stories to get sensationalized.


Lousy service, misinformation, lack of support and help with alternate travel, rude and uninformed call center reps, and general incompetency of a typical government supported corporation SHOULD BE WIDELY REPORTED, BOTH HERE AND IN THE PRESS!


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## JAChooChoo (Dec 24, 2008)

Shame on you Spacecadet!

How dare you interject factual data into subjective memories!

Next someone will present evidence that this unusual weather also had devastating effects on planes, busses, and even automobiles on the Government Funded Interstate Highway system.


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## Russell (Dec 24, 2008)

jphjaxfl said:


> On New Years eve 1970/New Years day, 1971, I traveled from Cleveland to Boston via Penn Central's no name train that was a combination of several New York Central name trains. It snowed heavily all the way from Cleveland to Boston. I had a slumbercoach room from Cleveland to Albany. I had an excellant breakfast in the dining car as we plowed through the early morning snow of upstate New York. They served freshly made corn muffins (that PRR was known for) with my eggs and ham. Before Albany, I moved from the Slumbercoach to the through coach to Boston. The Boston section carried coaches and lounge that served sandwiches and other short order foods. The snow was heavy through the Berkshires, but we were only 20 minutes late into South Station. The trip was very scenic and I was comfortable the entire trip even though it was very wintry outside.


No chance we will ever have that again today. Amtrak cancelled my Lakeshore Limited #49 to Chicago today based upon a "Flood Watch" along Lake Erie, panicking that the train might not get through. The website still incorrectly states that the LSL left Penn Station December 24 on time and is expected in Chicago Union Station 15 minutes late tomorrow (Christmas Day)! Amtrak does not properly update their website, has totally uninformed call center agents, and even worse Customer Service representative who are of no help at all. And once you make the mistake of ticketing in advance of travel -- a big, big mistake -- if there is no Amtrak ticket office in your city then you have to travel to the nearest Amtrak Ticket office (for me a trip to hell to Penn Station from White Plains) and stand in line for well over one hour for a refund -- and NO first class ticket counter, and no use of the Acela Express ticket counter for first class rail passengers. And there is NO help with alternate travel. No wonder rail travel is not preferred by the majority. I'll never trust Amtrak again with a critical holiday travel. The weather has calmed down in the NYC area today and tomorrow and there are no major storms anywhere along the way, but Amtrak does not operate!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 24, 2008)

One thing about us old-timers trying to remember this is that we had little access to this info at the time.

Consider a world without computers we as we know them. A world without Julie. A world without a link which would tell us a train's punctuality for the last four weeks.A world without 800 phone numbers.

Our best ways of knowing if a train was on time was if we rode it or saw it. Or, if it's lateness was bad enough to be in the papers.

To find out if a train was on time we would have to call the station, talk to a real person(called a ticket agent), who would be busy writing out manual tickets, taking reservations over the phone or in person, and accepting real money, not too much in the way of credit cards back then.

The ticket agents at the two stations in my hometown of Chattanooga were very nice to me, I am sure they knew my voice. But no way would I ask them to tell me when a train arrived each day for the last four weeks. I remember being in a station about lunch time and wandering if the northbound Tennessean had left on time at 4 that morning. They told me the baggage man kept those records so I went to him he told me "4:05".

Spacecadet, those were neat links you provided and I am not surprised by them.

My own experiences were pretty good with weather delays.Granted I lived in Tennessee which does not get nearly the bad weather that many places get. But we get more than you might think. But of course there were trains in Chattanooga from Chicago, St. Louis, Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, NYC, Philly,Washington, etc so we had plenty of opportunites for trains to be hours late. Perhaps on the days they were so late I was not venturing out myself and thus never saw how late how often.

And to TIE THIS IN with the point I was making above, no way would I bother the ticket agents by calling to ask how late the trains were. Again, to do so I would be bothering real people, not Julie, or the various links.

Here are some of my late weather experiences .

1.Riding the CZ in 1964. The tracks in the Feather River Canyon (it does not go that way any more)were washed out. We were going to be re-routed on the City of San Francisco's route, it was snowed in, then we were put on busses which went out one highway and it was closed. Finally we got on another highway and arrived in SF nine hours late.

2.Being at Union Station Chattanooga one afternoon when the southbound Georgian from Chicago came in nine hours late. I asked the reason for the delays and they said frozen signals.

3.Being at the same station one morning and seeing a lone sleeper sitting there. Turned out it was a car to have been transfered from a train arriving the other station at midnight,from NYC,Washington, Bristol. It was to be taken over to the station where I was to have gone out at 1.40 a.m. Instead, here it was going to be put a train leaving 7.40 a.m. This because the train the night before was five hours late,also stuck signals.

4.This was already Amtrak. The great storm of 1993 which caused a lot of trouble for a lot of people.I got stranded in Birmingham, Ala. for two or three days due to a serious, yes very serious,snowstorm.

5.During a serious ice storm, I remember reading in the paper that the northbound Georgian arrived 8 or 9 hours late just from Atlanta. This made the papers as part of theweather coverage. Seem some judge was on board,that might be how it became known.


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## Russell (Dec 24, 2008)

JAChooChoo said:


> Shame on you Spacecadet!How dare you interject factual data into subjective memories!
> 
> Next someone will present evidence that this unusual weather also had devastating effects on planes, busses, and even automobiles on the Government Funded Interstate Highway system.


Yeah, right! The airports are all back to normal today, operating on or reasonably close to schedule throughout the Northeast and Midwest (with the usual one hour delays) and passengers accommodated on other flights as soon as possible (except for the severe storms over last weekend, which are NOT a major factor today, except for the government bureacrats that operate Amtrak!).


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## Russell (Dec 24, 2008)

JAChooChoo said:


> Shame on you Spacecadet!How dare you interject factual data into subjective memories!
> 
> Next someone will present evidence that this unusual weather also had devastating effects on planes, busses, and even automobiles on the Government Funded Interstate Highway system.



And oh, yes, Amtrak has a super efficient ticketing service at New York Penn with a line for refunds, a counter for first class passengers, and a well-organized staff that loves their work, and when the lines are really long, the agents do not take 5 minutes between each customer to shuffle papers and go get coffee! Yeah, its our government at its best, trying to operate in private enterprise, where half of these employees would be out of a job in the private sector.


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## wayman (Dec 24, 2008)

Russell said:


> JAChooChoo said:
> 
> 
> > Shame on you Spacecadet!How dare you interject factual data into subjective memories!
> ...


That sure wasn't what the ABC News correspondent reporting from O'Hare said this evening!...


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## AlanB (Dec 24, 2008)

Russell said:


> No chance we will ever have that again today. Amtrak cancelled my Lakeshore Limited #49 to Chicago today based upon a "Flood Watch" along Lake Erie, panicking that the train might not get through. The website still incorrectly states that the LSL left Penn Station December 24 on time and is expected in Chicago Union Station 15 minutes late tomorrow (Christmas Day)!


While I'm not going to speculate on just what happened here, or just why Amtrak called you, the website is not incorrect. Today's LSL has arrival and departure times for all stations between NY City and Syracuse, where it left on time tonight.

And those times are entered by station agents at the train stops, not by headquarters. So those agents are seeing the train and reporting it.

As for the flood watch, it is however quite serious. They are expecting the lake to rise as much as 8 feet above flood stage, which with the tracks so close to the waters edge and streams and rivers to cross may yet still cause problems and delays for the train.

Additionally there is one warning out right now for a creek that joins the Buffalo River less than a mile from a bridge that Amtrak must cross. They believe that they have an ice problem and if it breaks that could creates a 10 foot wall of water.

Finally there is also a high wind warning, with sustained winds of 40 MPH expected and gusts to just under 60 MPH, which could make for still more fun.


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## Russell (Dec 24, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Russell said:
> 
> 
> > No chance we will ever have that again today. Amtrak cancelled my Lakeshore Limited #49 to Chicago today based upon a "Flood Watch" along Lake Erie, panicking that the train might not get through. The website still incorrectly states that the LSL left Penn Station December 24 on time and is expected in Chicago Union Station 15 minutes late tomorrow (Christmas Day)!
> ...


Are you telling me Train #49 went out on time, and is scheduled, as per Amtrak's website, for a 10:00 a.m. arrival in CHICAGO, Christmas Day? The automated call notification center called me December 23 with the cancellation; I then pressed the number for Customer Relations (I have the customer service supervisor's name) who confirmed the cancellation. Next, I went to Amtrak's ticket counter December 24 at 10:30 a.m. and was told the very same thing by the ticket agent: "Train 49 has been cancelled due to severe weather enroute and will not be operating to Chicago today." (I have that ticket's agent name as well.) Lastly, I spoke with a supervisor at the ticket window as well to complain about first class passengers not being able to obtain service at the Acela Express Ticket Window (a wait of about 5 minutes).

How on earth can your information be correct and everything I was told, incorrect? How could I be informed on December 23 by the automated calling service, confirmed by Customer Relations (who stated "no other alternate booking is possible") and the train "will not operate," and finally, New York Penn Station December 24, 10:30 a.m. that "Train 49 is cancelled." I am outraged that this disorganized, incompetently operated government-supported transportation is allowed to do things like this without accountability.

Amtrak ruined my Christmas vacation and six months planning. I lost nearly a day of work to get a refund on my ticket. Surely the Agent at the ticket window would not have refunded my ticket if Train 49 was operating as scheduled. Why would they? The sleeping portion would be non-refundable, good for another travel date and there would be penalties; lastly my receipt states "Train cancelled." Something is very wrong here and I intend to contact my Congressman and see if we can hold the people who did this accountable. This is an outrage. And it is wrong, unless Train 49 is only operating a part of the way -- which is possible as I recall someone saying -- "Train 49 will not operate through to Chicago Union Station." I surely hope this is the case. Amtrak would not have refunded the ticket 100% if they planned to operate through service to Chicago Union station; by the time I left New York Penn Station Amtrak would have know since it would be nearly impossible to re-schedule that train on such short notice; I think you should re-check whether Train 49 is going through to Chicago. That may be where your information is lacking. If you are correct, I will find out and I will pursue it.


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## Larry H. (Dec 24, 2008)

Space Cadet,

Your articles are interesting and do show that severe weather can certainly cause havoc on the rails.. A couple of things though do stand out. For the most part the articles say the trains are running with delays of several hours to 12 in one case. Amtrak can accomplish that on a clear day! Expect for one instance the trains appear to have not been canceled but stalled due to weather, after which most proceeded late to their destinations. Passengers were not told "forget it you on your own". The last article does bring up this point, but if you read it carefully it was due to a flaw in engine design that caused the failure of the electical system. In that case it says trains were canceled but a portion of them continued to operate. Another factor mentioned in those 40's examples was the stretch put on the rail roads by men being involved in wartime activities, thus unable to keep things going as normal.

Perhaps I over estimate the problem, but most of the examples are for things like the worst blizzard ever, lowest temperatures and yet they at least gave it a try, even if they didn't make it.


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## AlanB (Dec 25, 2008)

Well the online status now reports that the LSL that departed Penn Station on the 24th as having departed Buffalo 33 minutes late at 12:32 AM on Christmas Day, presumably still on its way to Chicago. And since Buffalo would be the westernmost stop where a train could be terminated, prior to entering the area where weather problems were expected, I have to believe that it is running through to Chicago at this point in time.


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## spacecadet (Dec 25, 2008)

Larry H. said:


> Space Cadet,
> Your articles are interesting and do show that severe weather can certainly cause havoc on the rails.. A couple of things though do stand out. For the most part the articles say the trains are running with delays of several hours to 12 in one case. Amtrak can accomplish that on a clear day! Expect for one instance the trains appear to have not been canceled but stalled due to weather, after which most proceeded late to their destinations. Passengers were not told "forget it you on your own".


Well, the question is which is worse, being stranded on a train or being stranded off a train? Either way you're kind of screwed, but being stranded on foot in a city, at least you have access to food and heat. Not necessarily so on some of those trains in those articles.

Also, in one of those articles the NYC said its trains were running up to 20 hours late, on runs that topped out at around 20 hours. That kind of "lateness" amounts to a day's worth of canceled trains.

And lastly, I think it's implied in all of these articles that trains were actually canceled. Obviously the *news* story is going to be trains caught in snow drifts or forced to wait in yards. But you don't think there were dozens of other trains outright canceled, but which didn't make the news because all of those passengers simply made other arrangements? I think some of the quotes about passengers "piling up" in terminals is a pretty strong implication that they weren't going anywhere because their trains were canceled.



> Perhaps I over estimate the problem, but most of the examples are for things like the worst blizzard ever, lowest temperatures and yet they at least gave it a try, even if they didn't make it.


Every blizzard seems to be called the "worst ever" by some measure or other - it still happens today. It's just sensationalism. I specifically made a point that that last referenced snowstorm produced on average 12 inches of snow and only 9 inches in New York, and yet it halted train service. 9 inches! That happens several times per year, it's hardly a once in a lifetime event. That's all it took back then to bring trains to a halt in the Northeast.

The only really unusual looking thing in any of those articles was the fuel shortage in the 1940's, which it doesn't say is directly due to the war but must have been. And it seems that made one bad snowstorm a lot worse. But all the rest of those articles are basically run-of-the-mill storms that you might see any year, or even any month.


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## AlanB (Dec 25, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Well the online status now reports that the LSL that departed Penn Station on the 24th as having departed Buffalo 33 minutes late at 12:32 AM on Christmas Day, presumably still on its way to Chicago. And since Buffalo would be the westernmost stop where a train could be terminated, prior to entering the area where weather problems were expected, I have to believe that it is running through to Chicago at this point in time.


Well now as of Christmas morning, perhaps some evidence that the train did indeed terminate in Buffalo. Even though it's shown as leaving Buffalo just past midnight, the train has yet to arrive in Erie, Cleveland, or Toledo; all stations that were it even reasonably close to on time, it should have arrived at by now.


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## Trogdor (Dec 25, 2008)

Russell said:


> Amtrak ruined my Christmas vacation and six months planning.


Honestly, here. Did Amtrak ruin your Christmas vacation and six months planning, or did the worst winter weather we've seen in years ruin your vacation and planning?

I've read articles of passengers being stranded at airports for two or three days in the past week because of the weather. Some of them wanted to be home with their families this week, and *might* only be arriving today, despite being ticketed for flights on Tuesday. Did the airlines ruin their vacations?

Could Amtrak have handled your refund processing better? Probably. Would that have changed anything? No.


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## Larry H. (Dec 25, 2008)

Hi Space Cadet,

I commend you for your research, that is a neat source I must say.. No doubt things seemed better than the were actuality. I still feel the overall ability to operate in severe weather has been hamper by small crews and limited maintenance, but that said I am sure some situations are beyond Amtrak"s control at this point.

On slight point however, that last article you refer to you need to re read, yes perhaps the snow wasn't deep but the situation wasn't the depth of the snow, any train should be able to run in a 12 inch snow unless a really bad ice situation is developed with it. The problem as explained is the Engines and the air intake in the nose letting the fine snow into the motor and causing stalling.. That is why all those trains were canceled, not a mild snow depth.


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## Russell (Dec 26, 2008)

henryj said:


> The answer to this question from those of us that were here before Amtrak is that YES the railroads operated in all kinds of weather and ran their passenger trains in that weather. The passenger train up into the 50's and 60's was the most reliable form of transportation. Airlines often were delayed or cancelled because of weather as they did not have the sophisticated radar and instruments they have today. Passenger trains began their real decline with the coming of the interstate highway system and jet passenger planes. Up until then and even up until Amtrak the railroads operated their passenger trains in a first class manner. Weather might delay them but they still ran, much unlike Amtrak does today using almost any excuse to not run a train. Also, Amtrak today is dependent on the host railroads they run on. If that railroad does not clear the track in a timely fashion or closes a line then Amtrak cannot run. The NEC which today is wholly owned by Amtrak has reliable service consistent with it's past history. When severe weather comes in the form of heavy snow or torrential rains then any land based system will experience delays.


Thank you very much for your information. You have reduced this whole discussion into a very informative, accurate, insightful and well-articulated paragraph, covering all the bases and candidly presenting the facts as they are. No one else on this website has addressed this matter as authoritatively and succinctly as you have done today. Thank you for helping all of us to clearly understand the whole picture of past and present rail travel.


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## Russell (Dec 26, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Well the online status now reports that the LSL that departed Penn Station on the 24th as having departed Buffalo 33 minutes late at 12:32 AM on Christmas Day, presumably still on its way to Chicago. And since Buffalo would be the westernmost stop where a train could be terminated, prior to entering the area where weather problems were expected, I have to believe that it is running through to Chicago at this point in time.


Oh no it did not arrive in Chicago. LSL, Train 49, departing NYP on December 24, never made it to Erie, PA, let alone Chicago Union Station. I can find no evidence of that, including 1) a call to Union Station, 2) Amtrak website and 3) customer service. Train 49 was cancelled through to Chicago. In fact, Train 49 never left Buffalo and could not have arrived in Syracuse as you maintained.


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## AlanB (Dec 26, 2008)

Russell said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Well the online status now reports that the LSL that departed Penn Station on the 24th as having departed Buffalo 33 minutes late at 12:32 AM on Christmas Day, presumably still on its way to Chicago. And since Buffalo would be the westernmost stop where a train could be terminated, prior to entering the area where weather problems were expected, I have to believe that it is running through to Chicago at this point in time.
> ...


Russell,

Syracuse is east of Buffalo, therefore a westbound train cannot reach Buffalo without first at least passing through Syracuse, even if it doesn't stop there for some odd reason. However all evidence does suggest that the train did indeed stop in Syracuse, and not just past through it. It's shown in the system as having arrived at 9:36 PM and departing at 9:41 it's scheduled departure time.

As for going past Buffalo, I did make another post stating that it did not indeed appear to have passed west of Buffalo.


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 26, 2008)

Does Amtrak actually save money by cancelling trains and refunding fares with no alternative transportation provided? Do they have to pay crews when the trains don't run? Since many passengers may be connecting and don't make their connections because their first train is cancelled, the space on the connecting train becomes available, but there is such a demand, the space on the connecting train can likely be sold at the highest bucket. Cancelled trains don't help Amtrak over the long term because many customers will just chose alternative transportation in the future if there is a hint of bad weather. It would be very interesting to know how cancelled trains impact Amtrak's bottom line.


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## Russell (Dec 26, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Russell said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Yes, in my angst, I made a mistake; your initial information that Train 49 traveled West of Buffalo was not correct. The information I received from numerous sources with Amtrak (and finally confirmed through my uncle who worked for the railroad in Chicago for 50 years -- he called dispatch directly for me) that BUF was the FINAL destination December 24 was accurate. What I had meant to state was that LSL never arrived in _Erie, PA_. The entire Amtrak operation is poorly organized with poor and inaccurate information at Amtrak's website. The Amtrak website Train Status kept insisting Train 49 was scheduled to arrive Erie, Cleveland, Chicago (and so on in between) and in fact, it was NEVER scheduled to operate to those cities December 24/25. Amtrak never updated their website with accurate information indicating that Train 49 was cancelled West of Buffalo, thereby confusing even experienced observers like you, not to mention novice _Amtrak_ travelers (but not novice travelers -- 1.2 million air miles) like me. That Train Status - Tracking section is a farce. Amtrak is a typical government supported entity (and acts like a government owned company). The airlines are far from perfect, but deal better by far with first class, elite travelers, particularly in their private club lounges (and have separate first class, elite membership check in). You could not even figure out that Train 49 was cancelled West of Buffalo and apparently continued to believe the misinformation that it would operate, albeit late, West of Buffalo! It wasn't until the next day that even you began to suspect the service was cancelled! You can imagine the confusion for the rest of us.


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## Russell (Dec 26, 2008)

jphjaxfl said:


> Does Amtrak actually save money by cancelling trains and refunding fares with no alternative transportation provided? Do they have to pay crews when the trains don't run? Since many passengers may be connecting and don't make their connections because their first train is cancelled, the space on the connecting train becomes available, but there is such a demand, the space on the connecting train can likely be sold at the highest bucket. Cancelled trains don't help Amtrak over the long term because many customers will just chose alternative transportation in the future if there is a hint of bad weather. It would be very interesting to know how cancelled trains impact Amtrak's bottom line.


Amtrak is on the "take" from the government, supported in a large manner by our tax dollars; thus there is no incentive as there is in the private sector. Amtrak cancels at the proverbially "drop of a hat," since ultimately Amtrak is not worried about the so-called "bottom-line." (The great flood never occurred, and the tracks remained open the night of December 24, 2008 on the route of the LSL, NYP-CHI.) There is a post somewhere here that is by far the most lucid, accurate and insightful analysis of train travel and service today that I have ever seen. It appears to have been written by an expert who has thoughtfully studied the issues involved in the decline in rail travel, and thus in service, over the decades and is well worth reading. The post is somewhere in this section and I commented on how it summarizes completely, accurately and dispassionately the issue once and for all. It well worth your time to locate that paragraph in this section and read it. The person writes extremely well, and has thought out the issues with great sensitivity and accuracy and articulates the facts in clear English prose.


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## Tony (Dec 27, 2008)

Russell said:


> Amtrak is on the "take" from the government, supported in a large manner by our tax dollars; thus there is no incentive as there is in the private sector.


So, what transportation system isn't?

Buses and trucks drive on roads and interstate highways supported in a large manner by our tax dollars.

Planes use airports, and utilizes air traffic controllers, which are supported in a large manner by our tax dollars.

Ships use ports which are supported in a large manner by our tax dollars.


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## jis (Dec 27, 2008)

Russell said:


> Lousy service, misinformation, lack of support and help with alternate travel, rude and uninformed call center reps, and general incompetency of a typical government supported corporation SHOULD BE WIDELY REPORTED, BOTH HERE AND IN THE PRESS!


You know, in all your posts you repeatedly keep bringing up this "government support" thing. So if Amtrak, which by the way is constituted as a private corporation, were not government supported, would your experience have necessarily been any better? Does the fact that the road you drive on is paid for by the government make your driving experience worse? Just curious.... or is it just that we should not take your rant too seriously? 

While Amtrak's inability to inform you earlier is regrettable, have you figured out who was really responsible for the cancellation? Was the railroad open for operation and yet Amtrak went out of its way to cancel the train to make you miserable? Or was it that CSX had shut the railroad down and hence Amtrak could not operate?

A similar thing happened to me on a trip to Florida last year (2007). CSX shut the railroad down as a result of a hurricane warning, and hence Amtrak canceled the Silver Star two hours before departure from New York. Was that Amtrak's fault that CSX decided to take that action two hours before the train was to depart? Would it have been better if Amtrak had run the train regardless and parked it on the Potomac bridge awaiting CSX clearance?

In any event what I did was to get a refund from Amtrak which they readily did, for that leg of my itinerary, and bought a ticket on Continental the next day to get me to Florida at about the same time as when the Star would have arrived there. I could have sat around venting and fretting and fuming but all that would have been mostly to my own detriment and nothing else.


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## Russell (Dec 27, 2008)

Tony said:


> Russell said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak is on the "take" from the government, supported in a large manner by our tax dollars; thus there is no incentive as there is in the private sector.
> ...


No way, not even close to the infusion of cash that Amtrak receives directly from U.S. taxpayers. Those are not legitimate comparisons, since private individuals regularly use the highways, ports, and even the airports.


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## AlanB (Dec 28, 2008)

Russell said:


> Tony said:
> 
> 
> > Russell said:
> ...


Sorry to burst your bubble but this year the Federal government gave $8 Billion of our Federal Income Tax dollars to the Highway Trust Fund (HTF) to keep it from going belly up. The plan that Congress authorized three years ago for our highways outspent the amount of money that the HTF takes in from gas taxes at that time. And that was before the gas prices from this summer caused revenue from the gas taxes to drop below what was expected. It's expected that the fund will need a $9 Billion cash infusion in 2009 and 2010, with the amount jumping to $12 Billion in 2011 & 2012, unless Congress passes a gas tax increase, something that is not very popular at the moment.

By the way, even though Congress passed that five year $286 Billion dollar package back in 2005 that out spent the fund, the Federal Highway administration estimated that it really needed a 5 year plan worth $375 Billion just to maintain the status quo on our highways. And that was before the sudden panic regarding bridges after I-45 dropped into the river in Milwaukee/St. Paul.

And while it is less than what Amtrak got this year, just under a Billion of our tax dollars went to the FAA this year to keep the planes flying. I believe that last year's contribution was about $1.2 Billion.


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## Joe Watts (Dec 31, 2008)

Larry H. said:


> I am wondering if the old Empire Builder or any major railroad was so prone to fail in snow as the system is apparently now? I have old ads from rail roads about getting through in any weather, Foul Weather Friends the Kansas City Southern called the people that rode when you couldn't fly. Anyone remember for sure those days, or have factual reports of that earlier time? It just seems way too many are inconvenienced by what is supposed to be the transportation that moves in any weather? My guess is the equipment in the old days was never allowed to freeze up and the tracks were kept free of snow in all by the absolute worst weather?


Back in the days when passenger cars were heated and cooled by steam from the steam engine or the steam generator in early diesels, the plumbing, etc. under the cars probably received some benefit from the heat of the steam lines. Today, Amtrak trains are heated electrically with power from HEP (head end power) generators in the locomotives. It would seem that equipment that is vulnerable to freezing should be designed with electrical heaters. Water systems, tanks, etc. should certainly be heated. I suppose other problems could arise from snow packing in around locomotive traction motors and perhaps shorting them out. This was not a problem with steam engines. Perhaps, in order to restore some semblence of reliability in todays trains, we will have to put some of the nation's restored steam engines to work pulling Amtrak across the northwest.


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## Guest_Mark_* (Jan 1, 2009)

henryj said:


> The answer to this question from those of us that were here before Amtrak is that YES the railroads operated in all kinds of weather and ran their passenger trains in that weather. The passenger train up into the 50's and 60's was the most reliable form of transportation. Airlines often were delayed or cancelled because of weather as they did not have the sophisticated radar and instruments they have today. Passenger trains began their real decline with the coming of the interstate highway system and jet passenger planes. Up until then and even up until Amtrak the railroads operated their passenger trains in a first class manner. Weather might delay them but they still ran, much unlike Amtrak does today using almost any excuse to not run a train. Also, Amtrak today is dependent on the host railroads they run on. If that railroad does not clear the track in a timely fashion or closes a line then Amtrak cannot run. The NEC which today is wholly owned by Amtrak has reliable service consistent with it's past history. When severe weather comes in the form of heavy snow or torrential rains then any land based system will experience delays.


Watching the Empire Builder over the past week, I have noticed a number of unnecessary cancellations, all tied to equipment availability. A derailment at Essex and track damage near Whitefish each shut the line down for about 16 hours, severely delaying trains. Add to that a WB Builder that suffered failure of both engines and an EB freight that stalled in the Cascades in front of the Builder. This forced cancellations when Portland/Seattle and Chicago ran out of consists. In fact, any severe delay of the WB Builder will delay or cancel the EB, since Portland/Seattle have no extra consists on hand. So perhaps one of the main differences between Amtrak and past services is that in the "old days" railroads had enough spare equipment to keep trains running despite severe delays.

It is easy to blame host railroads, but in my limited experience I have been impressed by the dispatchers' willingness to put every freight - even hot "Z" trains - in sidings for Amtrak. Today we have more freight tonnage moving on fewer lines than in the "old days." That means more dead crews in a weather delay which can snowball to gridlock on a single-track line. And if it gets bad enough that those Z trains risk missing their guaranteed arrival dates, I wouldn't blame dispatchers for choosing to preserve thousands of $$ of revenue over preventing a few more hours of delay to Amtrak.

Also, with the trend toward line abandonment, opportunities for weather detours have decreased. Many alternative lines that were once used to keep trains moving have now been removed or have been slapped with 20-30 mph speed restrictions that make passenger use impossible.

Personally I hope our new administration provides Amtrak with the funding needed to purchase new equipment and better maintain its current equipment. Keeping more spare engines and consists at major terminals could probably eliminate perhaps 30-50% of "weather-related" delays/cancellations and allow for a much quicker recovery after a disruption.


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## jphjaxfl (Jan 1, 2009)

In days before Amtrak added HEP to certain passenger cars, the Amtrak Empire Builder and the Northcoast Hiawatha used to carry a steam generator car in the winter months to supplement steam provided by the diesel locomotive. All the BN/GN/NP trains prior to Amtrak carried such cars. They kept the train nice and warm when it was very cold outside. I was on the EB a couple times when the steam line became disconnected and the train would stop and the train crew would reconnect, but it never took very long. The only negative thing about the steam heating was the fact that the air on the train was very dry in the winter months. I used to take a container to fill with water in the Sleeping Car rooms to provide some moisture to keep from drying out while sleeping.


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