# Auto Train new consist reporting thread



## Allypet (Mar 13, 2014)

Since tomorrow (3/14) is the target date of the planned changes to the auto train, including the removal of the sleeper lounge and the addition of a 5th coach car and a general reshuffling of the diner cars to the center of the train. I am curious to see how they set this up, or even if it takes effect on time, so I'm reminding everyone to keep an eye out for any noticeable changes to the consist and post them here. Thanks!


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## Allypet (Mar 14, 2014)

Any railfans have a sighting yet? Should be pulling out soon!


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## Carolyn Jane (Mar 14, 2014)

Just watched 52 thru Jesup...cars match current consist...lounges and diners in right locations. Am not familiar enough with distinguishing between cars, especially in the dark...CJ


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## Hanno (Mar 15, 2014)

My son was on the AT last night going north to Lorton. This morning he texted me and said they arrived early and had no time for breakfast. He was in a sleeper and had to walk thru four cars to get to the diner for a take out breakfast. He said it was a slow walk and chaotic! But he was glad to get in early.

Other than the location of the dining car the only difference he saw was no wine tasting and having four dinner seatings last evening instead of the "normal" three. They were 4:30, 6:00, 7:30 and 9:00. But that was for sleepers only. Coaches had the normal 5:00, 7:00 and 9:00 dinner seating.

I wonder why they would have an additional dinner seating for sleepers when they added more coach seating?


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## Allypet (Mar 15, 2014)

Hanno, thank you for your response. Can you tell me where the new location of the diners are in relation to the rest of the sleepers? I think the 4 seating for an hour and a half is going to be a big problem. The service isn't really that efficient to seat you, take your order, deliver your meal, and get you out and the table reset in less then 90 minutes. And taking servers from breakfast to make orders to go will slow down the process for everyone, what are they thinking? I can see Amtrak in their infinite wisdom now cutting desert and breakfast to the sleepers to save time!


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## VentureForth (Mar 15, 2014)

Amtrak doesn't really know how to run a diner, in my humble opinion. Somehow, they feel like they can bring in 60 people, take all their orders, prepare them at once, and kick them out in 90 minutes. I don't get why they don't try a more FCFS staggered approach? It's a diner for cryin' out loud. Not Hell's Kitchen!


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## Hanno (Mar 15, 2014)

I don't know what sleeping car was son was in other than he had to walk thru four cars to get to the diner. I'll see if I can get more information from him and will pass it on when I get the same.

I'm interested as well because we will be taking the AT north in several weeks.


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## Allypet (Mar 15, 2014)

This was a AT consist in 2003

↑ Sanford, FL

P40 Locomotive

P40 Locomotive

Dining (Superliner II)

Lounge (Superliner II)

Coach (Superliner II)

Coach (Superliner II)

Coach (Superliner II)

Coach (Superliner II)

Sleeper (Superliner II)

Sleeper (Superliner II)

Sleeper (Superliner II)

Dining (Superliner II)

Dining (Superliner II)

Sightseer Lounge (Superliner II)

Sleeper (Superliner II)

Sleeper (Superliner II)

Sleeper (Superliner II)

Crew Sleeper (Superliner II)

Auto Carrier #1

Thru

Auto Carrier #18

6 sleepers 2 sleepers diners and a lounge? Looks like over the past 10 years they have targeting the so called first class passengers! They have taken a sleeper, a lounge and a diner, added a coach car and another coach diner. What the heck are they thinking? If I wanted to sit in the same seat overnight I would take a bus!

Next time I might as well just take the Hampton Jitney. The reasons for taking the AT are rapidly disappearing! http://www.hamptonjitney.com/cgi-bin/nav.cgi?page=ny-florida.html


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## jacorbett70 (Mar 15, 2014)

Considering everyone aboard Auto Train must get into a car and drive (or rely on a fellow passenger to do the driving), I'd think there would be a trend towards sleeper cars. More coach means more fatigued drivers on the road.


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## afigg (Mar 15, 2014)

Allypet said:


> 6 sleepers 2 sleepers diners and a lounge? Looks like over the past 10 years they have targeting the so called first class passengers! They have taken a sleeper, a lounge and a diner, added a coach car and another coach diner. What the heck are they thinking? If I wanted to sit in the same seat overnight I would take a bus!
> 
> Next time I might as well just take the Hampton Jitney. The reasons for taking the AT are rapidly disappearing! http://www.hamptonjitney.com/cgi-bin/nav.cgi?page=ny-florida.html


If you look at the current consist list for the AT in the FAQ forum (to be updated once the change is made I would expect), you will see that the AT has not lost any sleeper cars. It still has 6 sleepers. What Amtrak is doing is replacing the sleeper lounge car with a 5th coach car. The new consist will reportedly be crew dorm, 6 sleepers, diner, diner (table), coach diner, joint lounge car (for sleeper and coach passengers), then the coach cars..Amtrak is not going to drop a sleeper car because the sleeper sales are solid revenue. By adding a 5th coach car year round, they are increasing the total capacity, although whether the change will hurt sleeper sales remains to be seen.


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## Allypet (Mar 15, 2014)

Afigg, my bad, I though there was only 5 sleepers on my last trip. Although I have been told that the diners are not being grouped so the sleeper passengers have no place to wait until they are seated.


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## Ryan (Mar 15, 2014)

There may have been only 5 on your last trip, the number can fluctuate depending on load factors.


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## neroden (Mar 15, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> Amtrak doesn't really know how to run a diner, in my humble opinion. Somehow, they feel like they can bring in 60 people, take all their orders, prepare them at once, and kick them out in 90 minutes. I don't get why they don't try a more FCFS staggered approach? It's a diner for cryin' out loud. Not Hell's Kitchen!


Yeah, there's something really inefficient about the "seatings" in the dining car operations. But trying to kick people out in 90 minutes simply isn't going to work. I am hoping that the current inefficiencies are partly due to paperwork and that "point of sale" implementation will allow Amtrak to switch to a more proper "restaurant-like" operation, seating people as soon as the previous table is cleared.


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## Allypet (Mar 16, 2014)

The problem with a restaurant style dinner seating with the new configuration is that there is no longer a lounge car to have people wait in. Are they going to have people wait in the sleeper hallway? I would think the people with the rooms right there would be a little upset.


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## jis (Mar 16, 2014)

So it will all boil down to whether they will make enough additional revenue from the additional Coach to cover for any incidental loss in Sleeper revenue due to a few upset Sleeper customers. My guess is that they will come out net positive, much to the chagrin of many here. And if they don't they can always reverse it. and make a big marketing noise about it as usual.

An additional revenue car is an additional revenue car, and it will be amazing if an additional revenue cars worth of sales will be lost in Sleeper. And an additional Coach is more than likely to generate way more automobile revenue too than one could conceivably lose out of disgruntled customers from Sleeper due to a relatively small change involving a slightly less convenient waiting place before being seated for food.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

Sitting in waiting room at Sanford. I can confirm that the new consist is in effect, but with sleeper diner in its usual spot in the middle of the sleeping cars, and the lounge between the coach and sleeper sections. Coach diner and table car remain at the southbound end. This strikes me as a more sensible order than that proposed in the internal memo and widely quoted in the rail fan media.

I asked the lady at check in how the 90 minute turnaround was working for sleeping car dinner settings,, an d she said that shje had not been on the train since the new system began


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## Allypet (Mar 16, 2014)

Guest said:


> Sitting in waiting room at Sanford. I can confirm that the new consist is in effect, but with sleeper diner in its usual spot in the middle of the sleeping cars, and the lounge between the coach and sleeper sections. Coach diner and table car remain at the southbound end. This strikes me as a more sensible order than that proposed in the internal memo and widely quoted in the rail fan media.
> 
> I asked the lady at check in how the 90 minute turnaround was working for sleeping car dinner settings,, an d she said that shje had not been on the train since the new system began


 thank you. That lounge and diner position sounds a lot better then what they first proposed. I hope you will keep us updated with your observations as your trip progresses.


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## battalion51 (Mar 16, 2014)

That very well could explain the four seatings for First Class dinner. Since they don't have the ability to overflow into the lounge like they used to, in on peak periods where the sleepers are full they go to the four seatings to allow everyone to get through the Diner. This wouldn't effect the coaches since they still have the table car for their overflow.

This is also a good thing in terms of noise control, since moving the diners to the center of the train would have meant the coaches being right up against the engines southbound increasing the noise significantly for those passengers.


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## RampWidget (Mar 17, 2014)

52(16) consist tonight - 2 engs, 16 Supers, 27 auto carriers = 43 cars

818 P40-DC

831 P40-DC

39000 transdorm

32114 sleeper

32108 sleeper

32505 sleeper

38067 diner

32501 sleeper

32092 sleeper

32107 sleeper

33104 A-T lounge

34128 coach

34131 coach

34127 coach

34118 coach

34129 coach

38054 diner

38045 diner

plus 27 automobile carriers


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## rrdude (Mar 17, 2014)

neroden said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak doesn't really know how to run a diner, in my humble opinion. Somehow, they feel like they can bring in 60 people, take all their orders, prepare them at once, and kick them out in 90 minutes. I don't get why they don't try a more FCFS staggered approach? It's a diner for cryin' out loud. Not Hell's Kitchen!
> ...


And what TRULY SUX, is if they had proper staffing, Amtrak could "turn those tables" in WAY LESS than 90 minutes. Don't get me wrong, I like sitting in the diner as MUCH as anyone, but if efficency is the goal, (and it's NOT, IMHO, it's COSTS) passengers could be fed, and NOT FEEL RUSHED, in about 45-60 minutes. VERY EASILY! The menu actually lends itself to fast service, the problem is STAFFING. Period. Full stop. No bussers, no one to take drink orders, S.A.s must "do it all", and even at that, they are understaffed.
I saw a quote from the new LD director about "..........meeting customer expectations......." I guess if you dumb down the service you offer enuff, passengers won't expect much.... Then it's easy to meet expectations...


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## neroden (Mar 17, 2014)

rrdude said:


> And what TRULY SUX, is if they had proper staffing, Amtrak could "turn those tables" in WAY LESS than 90 minutes.


On average, with proper operations, yes they could. I go to one local restaurant which is ludicrously efficient at turnaround -- and they never rush anyone. Their kitchen isn't much larger than a Superliner kitchen, either. But they have a *lot* of staff, and they have computerized order tracking. (The computerized ordering can handle special orders and substitutions, too.)

Perhaps the lounge is unusually underused on the Auto Train due to its schedule. I would like to see reports of crowding levels in the lounge; maybe it was OK to reduce from 2 lounge cars to 1. On the other hand, if the lounge is constantly full, then it wasn't OK.


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## afigg (Mar 17, 2014)

While some may not be happy with the consist change for the AT, Amtrak is putting out a positive spin on the increase in coach capacity with a news release.

*AMTRAK AUTO TRAIN ADDS MORE COACH SEATS*



> WASHINGTON – In response to growing demand, Amtrak Auto Train is expanding capacity by offering more coach seats in time for spring and summer travel.
> 
> Auto Train offers both coach and sleeper accommodations. Expanding capacity now means up to 60 additional coach seats are available for travel daily on Train 53 from Virginia and Train 52 from Florida.
> 
> ...


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## jimhudson (Mar 17, 2014)

Corporate Spin is almost as full of it as Political Spin!

My favorite is the blurb about your vehicles will enjoy the trip in their enclosed car carriers while you enjoy the scenery in the dark!

They can't be serious!


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## jis (Mar 17, 2014)

So what exactly is inaccurate in that press release? Yes it does not mention that a lounge for Sleeper passengers is being replaced by a Coach for those that cannot Sleeper making it possible for those additional Coach passengers to travel at all, at the expense of a bit of inconvenience for the Sleeper passengers.  I am glad they are not putting any spin on that and are just not mentioning it at all.

And where does it say anything about "enjoy the scenery in the dark"? Is it in some other advertizing blurb?


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## jimhudson (Mar 17, 2014)

Guess you missed my sarcasm his but @ the top of blurb it does say that passengers can relax and enjoy the scenery between the NE and Florida while their vehicles enjoy the ride in enclosed vehicle carriers! Sounds like SPIN to me but YMMV!


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## afigg (Mar 17, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> Corporate Spin is almost as full of it as Political Spin!
> 
> My favorite is the blurb about your vehicles will enjoy the trip in their enclosed car carriers while you enjoy the scenery in the dark!
> 
> They can't be serious!


During the summer there can be 3-4 hours of daylight on either end of a trip. Ok, so it is not particularly interesting scenery, but there is scenery to look at.

As for the vehicles, why wouldn't the cars enjoy a trip in a comfortable enclosed car carrier more than a 850 mile boring, life span shortening drive down I-95?


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## rrdude (Mar 17, 2014)

Here's the email I just rec'd:

Dear Auto Train Passenger,

In an effort to be good stewards of the federal funding received to operate our Amtrak service, a number of steps are being taken to eliminate losses in our Food and Beverage department over the next five years. Some of the changes being made to accomplish this include the discontinuation of select amenities offered on Auto Train.

Effective March 14, 2014, the Sleeping car lounge will be removed from Auto Train and replaced with an additional Coach car to allow greater seating capacity for our passengers. Additionally, complimentary wine served with dinner will be discontinued as well as the on-board wine and cheese tastings for Sleeping car passengers. Passengers will continue to receive all regular meals in the dining car at no additional charge, and passengers may purchase cheese and cracker trays and other snacks, as well as liquor, wine and beer, in the Lounge car.

While it is never easy to tell you, our valued customers, that we are eliminating some of the amenities, these changes are necessary in order to reduce costs, increase revenues and preserve passenger rail service across our country. If you have any questions or comments about these changes, feel free to contact me using the “contact us” link on the Amtrak.com home page.

Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage.

Sincerely,

Mark Murphy

General Manager, Long -Distance Services

BTW, "Mark", thanx fir nuthin!

Join us on facebook.com/Amtrak, and follow us on twitter.com/Amtrak.


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## Allypet (Mar 18, 2014)

This is the way the AT consist is shaping up. If anyone has the new coach number let me know, I'm assuming its 14.


----|---- —— Superliner Dorm
5245|5345 —— Superliner Sleeper
5243|5343 —— Superliner Sleeper
5241|5341 —— Superliner Sleeper Deluxe
----|---- —— Superliner Diner
5240|5340 —— Superliner Sleeper Deluxe
5242|5342 —— Superliner Sleeper
5244|5344 —— Superliner Sleeper
----|---- —— Superliner Auto Train Lounge
5210|5310 —— Superliner Coach
5211|5311 —— Superliner Coach
5212|5312 —— Superliner Coach
5213|5313 —— Superliner Coach
5214|5314 —— Superliner Coach
----|---- —— Superliner Diner
----|---- —— Superliner Diner (as table car)


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## OBS (Mar 18, 2014)

Allypet said:


> This is the way the AT consist is shaping up. If anyone has the new coach number let me know, I'm assuming its 14.
> 
> 
> ----|---- —— Superliner Dorm
> ...


It is interesting that they don't put the coach dining cars in the middle of the coaches, both for convenience as well as reducing some of the foot traffic the passengers in the 10 coach will have to endure


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## Allypet (Mar 18, 2014)

OBS said:


> Allypet said:
> 
> 
> > This is the way the AT consist is shaping up. If anyone has the new coach number let me know, I'm assuming its 14.
> ...


 If they put the diner cars in the middle of the coaches it will mean the coach cars will be attached right to the engines causing noise and fume issues in that car.


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## Allypet (Mar 18, 2014)

rrdude said:


> Here's the email I just rec'd:
> 
> Dear Auto Train Passenger,
> 
> ...


I'm glad you received an email. I'm booked on the AT for July and I haven't received anything yet. When they decided to change the smoking policy on the AT last year I received 25 emails and a dozen phone calls! I guess they want to keep this one quite! I just hope the little water bottles in the rooms and the coffee machines are still there!


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## Gilbert B Norman (Mar 18, 2014)

With twenty one 'voyages' to date, I think I'm amongst the most regular Auto Train riders around here, and the more thought I give to the more draconian amenity cuts to AT, the more I think smart move that will not affect my future patronage of the service.

Originally, the wine tasting was just that where both Virginia and Florida winemakers would supply their product to Amtrak and have one of their own representatives on board to explain their varietals much the same as you would find visiting those wineries tasting rooms. However that 'tasting' has simply evolved into 'Happy Hour' where the lower end Williamsburg Winery generic Red and White are poured by an Amtrak Attendant seated at a table in the Lounge for the passengers to line up and take 'em away. This past journey, I was seated with three others; one of whose company I could have done nicely without, but let's put the blame for that on myself as I readily admit I'm not the most sociable guy you'll meet along the way.

So far as the prepared to order steak going away in favor of the casseroles presently served to Coach passengers; well just 'buck it up'.

Instead, I'll simply BYOB at maybe $15 and have my own 'Happy Hour' in the privacy of my room reading The Times and Journal; during Dinner, I'll simply do without, and finish the bottle (so far as I know, ice and buckets in the Sleepers are not a casualty) before 'hitting the hay'.

All told, the addition of a Coach and whacking one of the two Lounges simply represent a smart move towards maximizing revenue. We should note that the former smoking room has now been converted to additional Lounge tables; the only wasted space is the former phone booth, which I trust is now used for supplies as it is padlocked. I don't think I have ever used a Lounge car on any Amtrak journey I've taken save one time during my '01 voyage. I was seated with a couple - Doctor, Nurse, Bennie S, and a Roomette (no Bedrooms available) where we were discussing classical music, however, it was time for the movie and she smelt a whiff of smoke - and that was that. The Lounge is simply one car to walk through on my way to the Diner.

Really, it isn't the end of the world


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2014)

Gilbert B Norman said:


> We should note that the former smoking room has now been converted to additional Lounge tables; the only wasted space is the former phone booth, which I trust is now used for supplies as it is padlocked.


Well, if you take the AT again, please comment on whether the lounge is crowded as you walk through. If the lounge is uncrowded... then I guess the train only needed one lounge, and that was my mistake.

The majority of Amtrak's longer-distance trains run with crowded lounges, and if they had as many passengers as the Auto Train they would NEED two lounges. Frankly, the Coast Starlight and Empire Builder already need two lounges (CS has two, EB doesn't); the Lake Shore Limited usually actually runs two lounges, and it definitely needs them. (Even at night.)

So I found it hard to believe that the *even longer* Auto Train could manage with only one lounge. But maybe the schedule and end-to-end nature of the train means that the lounges are particularly underused.


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## Allypet (Mar 19, 2014)

While I have never found the AT sleeper lounge empty, or even underutilized during waking hours, I have noticed the amount of passengers buying items in the lounge could not possible cover the employee costs. With that said, I think the knee jerk reaction to pull the sleeper lounge just because it did not generate enough income was hasty and wrong. They could have just as easily pulled the attendant and left the car. Not every car has to be income generating. Diners on the AT technically does not generate income either, but there are three of them.

Along these lines, hotels provide a gym for its guests, and they do not generate any income. If the hotel wanted to maximize income they could turn all gyms into rooms, but they don't. It's provided as a convince to paying guests. Providing an amenity doesn't have to cost anything, but it shouldn't always have to generate income either.

Now I know that people will say that the cars cost money, but they were there anyway, why not just provide a nice amenity. I don't think that two lounge cars for up to 600 passengers is excessive.


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## Ryan (Mar 19, 2014)

Allypet said:


> They could have just as easily pulled the attendant and left the car.


No, they couldn't have. When the train reaches its max length, the only way to add a coach is to get rid of some other car. The most logical car to get rid of was the second sleeper lounge.


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2014)

Allypet said:


> While I have never found the AT sleeper lounge empty, or even underutilized during waking hours, I have noticed the amount of passengers buying items in the lounge could not possible cover the employee costs. With that said, I think the knee jerk reaction to pull the sleeper lounge just because it did not generate enough income was hasty and wrong. They could have just as easily pulled the attendant and left the car.


Bingo. That's what I was thinking.

Apparently, however, the removal of the lounge car is due to an arbitrary and capricious limit on the length of the train imposed by CSX -- in order to add another coach they had to remove something. *sigh*.

Not for the first time, I say, damn CSX.


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## Gilbert B Norman (Mar 19, 2014)

While I note Mr. Allypet's immediate comment that the now former Sleeper Lounge was being used, I foun it to be cleared out when returning to my car, Line 5241 'Palm--' on 52(26FEB) after 5PM Dinner.

Now elimination of the 'free buzz with no driving concerns', might enhance alcohol sales, I think the Sleeper crowd will simply 'hole up' in what they have already paid for (and it was 'plenty' on the noted 'voyage'). For myself, I'll just BYOB @, say, $15 which will be offset by the $5 tip I left at Happy Hour. I'll have time to do The Times and Journal that I had not previously done considering the drive, in my case, from Boca to Sanford.

Again as I noted at my previous post, which to those who follow my material at RRNET possibly noted was adapted from what was posted there, Amtrak has opened the previous
smoking area to passenger use. Tables and TV monitors have been installed there, so extra seating capacity is now available.

Also of note, there has been one Sightseer Lounge assigned to the AT equipment pool. Presumably that car will be released to the Chicago pool lessening the possibility that the Chief, Eagle, or Zephyr will depart with a substitute 370XX X-Country in place of the Lounge. An X-Country in the consist of the Zephyr I would think would make some feel 'gypped'.

Lest one not familiar with the area wonder, Florida scenery can best be summarized as 'if you've seen one Pine Tree, you've seen 'em all'. Why any road, be it SAL, private AT, or Amtrak, has ever spent a dime on sightseeing equipment for that route escapes me. FEC and ACL were wise on that point.


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## Ryan (Mar 19, 2014)

I thought that name and posting style rang a bell. Welcome to AU, Mr. Norman. We'd love to have you sign up as a member if you're so inclined.



neroden said:


> Allypet said:
> 
> 
> > While I have never found the AT sleeper lounge empty, or even underutilized during waking hours, I have noticed the amount of passengers buying items in the lounge could not possible cover the employee costs. With that said, I think the knee jerk reaction to pull the sleeper lounge just because it did not generate enough income was hasty and wrong. They could have just as easily pulled the attendant and left the car.
> ...


I'm pretty sure the limit has more to do with not setting the power cables on fire than CSX's limit.


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2014)

RyanS said:


> I'm pretty sure the limit has more to do with not setting the power cables on fire than CSX's limit.


No, because if it were *just* that, Amtrak would1) scrape up a couple of power generator cars and wire up some sort of control for them

(or 1a) retrofit lighting or HVAC in the cars to reduce energy usage

(2) add *multiple* additional coaches, and really start to rake in the money

But apparently one extra coach, plus the autoracks associated with the cars of the passengers in said coach, is running up against the 50-car limit set by CSX, which makes it pointless to add a power car or retrofit the electricals.


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## Ryan (Mar 19, 2014)

Sorry, I'm not buying that.

1) Costs money. They're trying to raise money, not spend it.

2) What other cars would you get rid of?


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Sorry, I'm not buying that.
> 
> 1) Costs money. They're trying to raise money, not spend it.
> 
> 2) What other cars would you get rid of?


(1) You have to spend money (capital) to make money (operating). It costs money to run trains. By your logic, Amtrak should just cancel the Auto Train. (Worth noting: energy efficiency upgrades will actually save money by saving fuel, even *before* considering the ability to add more coaches to the train.)

(2) None. That's my entire *point*.


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## Ryan (Mar 19, 2014)

1) I understand that completely. You may have noticed Amtrak doesn't have piles of cash to throw around right now. Given the choice between increasing revenue and cutting costs (one less LSA) and increasing revenue and increasing costs, it's completely logical that they do the former.

2) I must have missed your point then. How does that support your argument that CSX, not the laws of physics is the problem here?


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## Allypet (Mar 19, 2014)

How often does the AT reach 50 cars? On all my trips it's been well under 50 cars, and all the reporting I have seen put in in the 30's and 40's range.

Also a friend in Amtrak tells me that the fresh fruit will be discontinued as soon as the supplies run out, the water bottles in the sleeper cars are in danger of being cut out also, but the coffee machines right now are safe. I hope they don't take the sheets next.


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## 7deuceman (Mar 20, 2014)

With the new configuration on AT, that single coach lounge car will become overcrowded and some people will not get a chance to enjoy the car. I've been on too many trips where the coach lounge was PACKED. Some people do not vacate seats in a reasonable interval where others could have a chance to be seated. I can see this being an immediate problem.

I also wonder WHERE will the passengers wait to be seated in the diner? I'm all for being positive, but this new AT plan could become a PR nightmare and quickly!


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 20, 2014)

Now I know why they have eliminated the wine and cheese tastings: they are redundant. There marketing department provide enough cheese to rival Wisconsin. And all they have to do is provide a link to AU and the passengers will have as much whine as they can handle.


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## neroden (Mar 20, 2014)

RyanS said:


> 1) I understand that completely. You may have noticed Amtrak doesn't have piles of cash to throw around right now. Given the choice between increasing revenue and cutting costs (one less LSA)


I should clarify something: I see absolutely no reason to keep the extra LSA either way.

I am solely disputing the choice of removing the lounge car. The Lake Shore Limited has a second unattended lounge for much of its run. So I do not count the removal of the LSA as a cost reduction associated with the removal of the lounge.

Adding one more coach sounds great, but if the lounge and diner both end up overcrowded, it's just going to damage Amtrak's reputation. And that is worth a great deal.

The Auto Train is attracting only the high-end market. We know the people taking it have access to a car. The car fee by itself is already more than it costs to drive a typical car from Lorton to Sanford (inclusive of mileage-based maintenance & depreciation costs!). The passengers are, therefore, paying a premium for comfort. How much of a premium will they pay? Well, it's hard to tell, but the worse the conditions get, the lower the ticket prices that can be charged. Overcrowded lounge == complaints.

Now, regarding spending capital funds to save on operating funds -- which Amtrak needs to do.

LED lighting uses half the energy of florescents and lasts five times as long.

If Amtrak still has any incandescents in the Superliners (and I believe they do), LED lighting uses *one tenth* the energy and lasts *40 times* as long.

This is a household comparison. http://eartheasy.com/live_led_bulbs_comparison.html#c It's not accurate for something like Amtrak -- the savings is probably greater because getting LEDs for hardwiring is cheaper than getting them in "bulb" form.

Yes, LEDs are more expensive up front. They'd probably pay for themselves *in the first year* under the heavy duty cycles in the Superliners, with the expensive electricity generation from diesel fuel.

And there goes the "we can't support any more cars with this much electricity" argument.

HVAC replacement would be more expensive up front than lighting replacement, but modern HVAC probably uses roughly half the energy of the 1970s HVAC in the Superliners, due to more efficient designs. Again, this is an improvement which would pay for itself in a few years.... *and* get rid of the "we can't support any more cars with this much electricity" argument.

Actually, both these things should probably be done anyway, if the Superliners are expected to keep running for ten more years. The payback in energy savings alone is exceptionally fast on lighting and pretty fast on HVAC too.

Now, if the single lounge doesn't fill up? Well, then I was wrong. If it does? I hope Amtrak figures out that it had better add another lounge car. No excuses about HEP permitted -- retrofit the cars to use less electricity and do it.

----

I've gone way off topic onto the topic of energy efficiency on board trains. But it started interesting me more and more.

I can't find good quotes for the energy efficiency of Amtrak's diesel generators in the P42s. Wikipedia tells me that diesel generators use from 0.28 to 0.40 litres of fuel per kWh. Some calculation based on that, and based on $4/gallon diesel, gives me an Amtrak cost of on-board electricity ranging from 29.6 cents per kWh to 42.3 cents per kWh.

This is *expensive* electricity. If there is any non-LED lighting in any Amtrak car, the payback time for replacing it is going to be *short*. The payback time for replacing the HVAC will be pretty short too.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 20, 2014)

I get a three horn blast from my wife on this from time to time.

"But honey if we invest a little in X it will pay for itself easily in 4-6 months and-"

"I know, BUT WE DONT HAVE THE MONEY!"

Nuff said.


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## Gilbert B Norman (Mar 21, 2014)

neroden said:


> The Auto Train is attracting only the high-end market. We know the people taking it have access to a car. The car fee by itself is already more than it costs to drive a typical car from Lorton to Sanford (inclusive of mileage-based maintenance & depreciation costs!).


Mr. Nerode, perchance you drive about in something like a Nissan Cube, but I guarantee you that Auto Train is the Bennie-Caddy-Lex crowd; not entirely of course, but in season when I ride, that appears to be the case.

The auto transport component of my fare last month was $186. While that sum will cover gas (810mi/25mpg X $4.25ga), it won't make much of a dent towards the 'running' maintenacne of any such vehicle. Note too that I am excluding any provision for the4 fixed costs like depreciation and interes.

The only scenario I can hold in which AT would be price competitive would be with a single person driving a high maintenance large older vehicle and willing to ride Coach; beyond that I wholly agree that there is a convenience rate to the fare.


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## battalion51 (Mar 22, 2014)

I think something people lose sight of with Auto Train is that you're paying for a service here. You and your vehicle are being transported about 850 miles. You're saving the gas cost sure, but how much is not driving that 850 miles worth to you? For someone traveling by themselves, for the snowbirds, or for the families being able to kick back and relax versus driving all night is worth it. It all comes back to the economics of cost/benefit, everyone will have their own perceptions of this.


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## Allypet (Mar 22, 2014)

battalion51 said:


> I think something people lose sight of with Auto Train is that you're paying for a service here. You and your vehicle are being transported about 850 miles. You're saving the gas cost sure, but how much is not driving that 850 miles worth to you? For someone traveling by themselves, for the snowbirds, or for the families being able to kick back and relax versus driving all night is worth it. It all comes back to the economics of cost/benefit, everyone will have their own perceptions of this.


Yes there is a service being provided. However if you are trading being stuck in an automobile with the kids, to being stuck in a sleeper bedroom with the kids because there is no lounge (or room in the coach lounge) to go to, I think the train quickly loses it's advantage when compared to driving.


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## PaulM (Mar 22, 2014)

7deuceman said:


> With the new configuration on AT, that single coach lounge car will become overcrowded and some people will not get a chance to enjoy the car. I've been on too many trips where the coach lounge was PACKED. Some people do not vacate seats in a reasonable interval where others could have a chance to be seated. I can see this being an immediate problem.


I can see it becoming a problem for the staff when long time AT sleeper passengers get introduced to lounge lizards for the first time.


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## neroden (Mar 23, 2014)

Gilbert B Norman said:


> Mr. Nerode, perchance you drive about in something like a Nissan Cube, but I guarantee you that Auto Train is the Bennie-Caddy-Lex crowd; not entirely of course, but in season when I ride, that appears to be the case.


I've actually mentioned my extremely-high-end automobile elsewhere, and I'm slightly embarrassed to say it again. If you like riddles, I can say my car is considered a "large car", and the EPA estimates fuel costs of $37 for an 810 mile trip in my car.

So anyway, I'm expecting the rise of electric and hybrid electric cars to severely cut the fuel costs for cars in the high-end and mid-range market, within a few years. I think this may not work its way down to the bottom of the market for a long time, but it should work its way down to the BMW/Caddy drivers fairly soon.



> The auto transport component of my fare last month was $186. While that sum will cover gas (810mi/25mpg X $4.25ga), it won't make much of a dent towards the 'running' maintenacne of any such vehicle.


There are two types of running maintenance, economically speaking: miles-based and years-based. I've done a fair amount of research on this; although it's hard to sort things out properly, it seems that the majority of the maintenance costs on most automobiles are years-based, rather than miles-based.

For instance, all the rubber hoses and gaskets decay whether or not they're being used. Oil is supposed to be changed every 6 months even if the engine isn't used much. The years-based costs are ticking down even if the car isn't moving. Most depreciation turns out to be years-based too, as I've discovered with very-lightly-driven 10-year-old cars.

Tires are probably the largest strictly miles-based costs, followed by brake pads. So I suppose whether the Auto Train fee is larger than gas + maintenance on the drive depends largely on how expensive the automobile's tires are and how quickly it burns through tire tread.



> The only scenario I can hold in which AT would be price competitive would be with a single person driving a high maintenance large older vehicle and willing to ride Coach; beyond that I wholly agree that there is a convenience rate to the fare.


Glad to have your agreement. I think driving 810 miles sounds kind of miserable, and so I expect that Amtrak will continue to be able to charge a pretty large convenience rate. But the premium charged for this service has to be commensurate with the improved circumstances. An uncrowded lounge and a comfortable, unrushed dinner will allow for much higher prices to be charged than a crowded lounge and a frustrating wait for a late dinner. Reducing service quality beyond a certain point will reduce revenues as people decide to drive their luxury cars instead of taking the train. I don't know if these cuts are hitting that point... but they could be.
The convenience factor of Auto Train even without a lounge seems better for motorcyclists (810 miles on a motorcycle is seriously hardcore), but motorcyling is a niche hobby to start with, so that's not a large market.


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## Ryan (Mar 23, 2014)

Allypet said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > I think something people lose sight of with Auto Train is that you're paying for a service here. You and your vehicle are being transported about 850 miles. You're saving the gas cost sure, but how much is not driving that 850 miles worth to you? For someone traveling by themselves, for the snowbirds, or for the families being able to kick back and relax versus driving all night is worth it. It all comes back to the economics of cost/benefit, everyone will have their own perceptions of this.
> ...


Not at all.
Sitting in a room and relaxing is about a million times easier than driving, even if I am "stuck" in a room with my family.

Doubly so when we're all in the "horizontal time accelerator" for 2/3 of the journey.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 23, 2014)

Of bourse, Mr. Neroden, a lot of the maintenance issues with cars don't really apply to yours.

Plus let us remember that Audi, BMW and Mercedes make quite a business of selling very efficient cars- the most efficient of which is perhaps the most efficient non- electric in the form of the Mercedes-Benz E250 BlueTec. Car and driver did a real world mileage test and compared it favorably to the Prius.

Cadillac, on the other hand, has a $75k flagship in the form of the ELR which also has impressive economy. Luxury cars are not always the most expensive to fuel.

Maintenance is another issue. I have ulcers from maintaining older Mercedes. Not that you could get me into an Asian car. I'd rather die from ulcers than boredom.


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## Notelvis (Mar 23, 2014)

Driving I-95 through the Carolinas, Georgia, and into north Florida is something I look forward to about as much as I might look forward to having a root canal. The dynamic which drives people aboard the Auto-Train in the first place will continue to do so in spite of the slightly scaled back service.

I suggest that most Auto-Train riders...... at least those in first class....... will hardly notice the loss of the 1st class lounge. The Auto-Train has so few 'waking hours' en route and most of those are spent waiting to be called to the diner, having dinner, and settling back into the room for the night after supper. Presumably the first class diner remains just that so the premium passengers are not going to experience any lengthier waits for supper.


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## neroden (Mar 23, 2014)

Notelvis said:


> I suggest that most Auto-Train riders...... at least those in first class....... will hardly notice the loss of the 1st class lounge. The Auto-Train has so few 'waking hours' en route


If this dynamic means that the lounge doesn't get used much.... then there won't be a problem. I guess we'll see!



> and most of those are spent waiting to be called to the diner, having dinner, and settling back into the room for the night after supper. Presumably the first class diner remains just that so the premium passengers are not going to experience any lengthier waits for supper.


Hopefully!


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## Ryan (Mar 23, 2014)

That's how all of my trips have gone.


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## Allypet (Mar 23, 2014)

I fell these cuts are only the tip of the iceberg. For those who think that these cuts end with these cuts are mistaken. I will quote a message I received from someone from Amtrak. I promised not to identify him or her. Take it for what's its worth.

"I notice that the people who are most certain that this new plan will work, are mostly located far from A-T's route and probably have never ridden the train & probably never will. 90 min. per seating in the diner is a ludicrous plan, created by office-dwellers who have never worked on board. It may become possible when salads are eliminated., which will happen soon when the job of the guy who makes the salads is eliminated (probably about a month from now, when jobs go up for re-bid). Right now, veterans are looking at transfer options, possibly quitting altogether, retiring, or other options. Diner crews give up their own dinner break & STILL can't keep the 4 dinner seatings on time. The one lounge attendant is often overwhelmed. People who don't know the job will blame the O.B.S. crews, but the fault lies with managers who are TOTALLY uninvolved in the day to day implementation of their bogus plan. I repeat, NO experience O.B.S. personnel were involved in formulating this plan, which has more holes than a sieve. As usual, the onboard service people are making the best of the situation & keeping it from getting as bad as it otherwise could get. I've never seen morale this low."


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 23, 2014)

Excellent "Insider Info"! Most of us that have had concerns with these Nickel and Dime cuts haven't even considered what this will do to those on the front lines, the OBS!

Its been a long time since I was in Grad School but the Principles of Good Management haven't changed! The desk jockeys in 60 Mass that dreamed up these schemes will cause complaints from Passengers and as was mentioned extra work for the already short handed OBS on the LD Trains! Just saying!


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## Anderson (Mar 24, 2014)

For the record, this is the first I recall hearing of them getting rid of the salads.


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