# Protests continue for third day



## jiml

From VIA Rail:

"*Sunday, February 9, 2020:*

Due to the protesters currently blocking tracks near Belleville, Ontario, train service between Montreal and Toronto and between Ottawa and Toronto is affected in both directions. None of the trains on these two routes will operate until the issue is resolved. We are asking passengers to check our online tools for departures and arrivals updates.




*Services continue to operate between Ottawa and Montreal, between Montreal and Quebec City, and west of Toronto in Southwestern Ontario. *
*Trains cancelled on February 9: 40, 42, 44, 45, 46, 47, 52, 53, 55, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 643, 644, 645.*
*While all other trains between Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto are prepared to leave on schedule should we achieve line clearance, your departure may be delayed or may not operate due to circumstances beyond our control. Please stay tuned for further updates.*


VIA Rail will be automatically refunding all segments affected by this service disruption. Please note that your refund may take up to 10 days to process."


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## neroden

This is the part of Toronto where Canada has to return the land to the First Nations they stole it from, or pay compensation, and Canada has been dragging their feet about complying with the Canadian Supreme Court. 

This particular protest is a sympathy protest because British Columbia is attempting to construct a stupid, unnecessary, and destructive gas pipeline on traditional unceded First Nations (Wet'suwet'en) land in British Columbia. 

It's complicated by the presence of mutiple different Wet'suwet'en governments. But what everyone -- including the Canadian Supreme Court -- agrees is that there's no treaty, no land cession, and so British Columbia and Canada *never* had any legal rights to the land *at all*. This is why other First Nations are running sympathy protests. The RCMP is illegally trespassing on sovereign Wet'suwet'en land. No wonder other groups who've had their land stolen are running sympathy protests.

The UN Committee on Racial Discrimination has criticized BC, so this is turning into an international incident.


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## PVD

Belleville...Used to be a big Nortel facility there...just after 9-11 I was up there for a Nortel PBX software engineering class...knowing I was from NYC everyone was super supportive during my stay...


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## brianpmcdonnell17

All of the trains across VIA's network have now been cancelled indefinitely.


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## railiner

Does that include the Maple Leaf between NFS and Toronto?

And does it impact the Adirondack or Vancouver trains?


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## Anderson

Apparently CN is in a heck of a spot with this...


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## brianpmcdonnell17

railiner said:


> Does that include the Maple Leaf between NFS and Toronto?
> 
> And does it impact the Adirondack or Vancouver trains?


All 3 Amtrak routes appear to be running as normal. Apparently the Sudbury-White River train and Churchill train north of The Pas will continue to operate as well.


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## jiml

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Apparently the Sudbury-White River train and Churchill train north of The Pas will continue to operate as well.


The latter two do not operate on CN - the tracks affected. Yesterday's Maple Leaf was supposed to terminate in Niagara Falls, where the Amtrak crew get off, but I did not see any confirmation that it had. There will be no point running it through to Toronto when VIA start laying off the staff that will meet and service it.


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## jiml

From VIA:

Important Advisory

Please note that it is currently not possible to make a booking to travel before February 21.


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## Urban Sky

jiml said:


> The latter two do not operate on CN - the tracks affected. Yesterday's Maple Leaf was supposed to terminate in Niagara Falls, where the Amtrak crew get off, but I did not see any confirmation that it had. There will be no point running it through to Toronto when VIA start laying off the staff that will meet and service it.


I don’t know why the media keeps getting this wrong (“24” - one of the free newspapers which are distributed to commuters every morning - even claimed that VIA’s union leaders feared the lay-off of 6000 workers, which would be remarkable given that VIA’s entire workforce is just over 4000), but it was only CN and not VIA, which mentioned the possibility of layoffs within its workforce:



> *CN Initiating Progressive and Orderly Shutdown of its Eastern Canadian Network*
> 
> MONTREAL, Feb. 13, 2020 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- CN (TSX: CNR) (NYSE: CNI) announced today that the Company has been forced to initiate a disciplined and progressive shutdown of its operations in Eastern Canada. This will include stopping and safely securing all trans-continental trains across its Canadian network and may imminently lead to temporary layoffs within the company’s Eastern Canadian operational staff.


https://www.cn.ca/en/news/2020/02/cn-initiating-progressive-and-orderly-shutdown-of-its-eastern-ca/


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## F900ElCapitan

Wow!! I was wondering what was going on when I pulled up transitdocs and only saw two trains. Amtrak’s train tracker is INOP and now this. We don’t get much in the way of Canadian news down here in Texas so is a bit of a surprise.


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## railiner

I don't understand all the issues, but if only CN tracks are being blockaded, perhaps VIA can temporarily use CP rails until it's all resolved?
Wouldn't it be great to "detour"on the Canadian to its historic route thru Calgary, and Banff?


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## jiml

railiner said:


> I don't understand all the issues, but if only CN tracks are being blockaded, perhaps VIA can temporarily use CP rails until it's all resolved?
> Wouldn't it be great to "detour"on the Canadian to its historic route thru Calgary, and Banff?


Not practical, but we can always dream.


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## jiml

Urban Sky said:


> I don’t know why the media keeps getting this wrong (“24” - one of the free newspapers which are distributed to commuters every morning - even claimed that VIA’s union leaders feared the lay-off of 6000 workers, which would be remarkable given that VIA’s entire workforce is just over 4000), but it was only CN and not VIA, which mentioned the possibility of layoffs within its workforce:
> 
> 
> https://www.cn.ca/en/news/2020/02/cn-initiating-progressive-and-orderly-shutdown-of-its-eastern-ca/


You are correct that the media is "running with this" and I sincerely hope it is not true. However, is it likely VIA will continue to pay staff to do nothing for at least another week (by their own release)? Our absentee PM just announced they were not going to intervene, so this could drag on indefinitely.

Also a question, to which you may know the answer: Why was the whole system shut down? Since CN is maintaining its western network, surely those operations could have continued.


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## jiml

As in any dispute, there are arguments to be made on both sides. Neroden has certainly articulated the liberal perspective often quoted by the media. However, the elected chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en have agreed to the pipeline in question. Some "hereditary" chiefs have questioned their right to do so, and that is essentially the dispute in BC which has involved court challenges, decisions and the RCMP on native land. I have no opinion on this, but what gets lost is that if a similar dispute happened in Wyoming or Montana, for example, and in sympathy a regional band in the northeast blocked the NEC and/or a heavy freight route, what would the reaction be? Would it have continued this long? If CSX announced it could no longer guarantee "the safety" of passenger trains on their tracks, would Amtrak shut down all those trains?

It's also important to note that those blocking the tracks do not even have the support of their own band leadership. Many of them are not affiliated with the Mohawks at all. The facts are all out there and easily searched.


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## Seaboard92

I know there are protesters blocking the CP in Quebec somewhere on the line headed towards the D&H and near Vancouver the main is blocked because the West Coast Express isn’t running either. 

I think it’s time the government acts before the economy grounds to a stop.


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## NS VIA Fan

Research Oka, Ipperwash or Caledonia. We don't want any of those again!


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> Research Oka, Ipperwash or Caledonia. We don't want any of those again!


Exactly. That's why no level of government wants to tackle it. Ottawa wants it to be Ontario's problem and vice-versa. The tribe sent in their own cops to deliver the court order to move the blockade and got nowhere. The CN police are powerless, so everyone called in the OPP (state police for our American friends) and all they've done is set up a traffic perimeter waiting for the Feds.


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## railiner

jiml said:


> and in sympathy a regional band in the northeast blocked the NEC


They would be removed "in a New York minute", you can be sure...


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## Urban Sky

jiml said:


> You are correct that the media is "running with this" and I sincerely hope it is not true. However, is it likely VIA will continue to pay staff to do nothing for at least another week (by their own release)? Our absentee PM just announced they were not going to intervene, so this could drag on indefinitely.
> 
> Also a question, to which you may know the answer: Why was the whole system shut down? Since CN is maintaining its western network, surely those operations could have continued.


If you lay off staff, you have to pay them severance pay and try to rehire them when the line is free again. Therefore, laying people off only makes sense when you have certainty that no train will roll for the next few months and where you have a few weeks notice to re-hire people. This was the case with Churchill when service north of Gillam was blocked for almost 20 months, but it absolutely doesn’t apply to the current situation, where the blockade could be removed any day and service resume within 48 hours.

In the case of CN, threatening to lay off a large number of workers is mostly aimed at increasing the pressure on the government, while signalling to their private shareholders that they are prepared to protect their interests (by holding costs down). Conversely, VIA is a crown corporation and as such the government will probably want to avoid more bad news and will therefore accept that staff get paid without any trains rolling. It will just increase its operational deficit, but that is paid automatically by the federal taxpayer through operational funding...

Regarding your last question, it’s exactly like it is described on VIA’s website:


> *February 14, 2020 - 11:10AM*
> Following an advisory from the infrastructure owner that they are unable to support our operations across their network, VIA Rail has no other option but to cancel all of its services on the network with the exception of Sudbury-White River (CP Rail) and Churchill-The Pas (Hudson Bay Railway), until further notice.


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## jiml

Urban Sky said:


> Regarding your last question, it’s exactly like it is described on VIA’s website:


I saw that yesterday, but it sounds like something got lost in translation between CN's posturing and VIA's. There was supposed to be no impact on the western network. Shutting down the Canadian - and Windsor service for that matter - seemed unnecessary unless VIA plans to furlough staff.


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## Urban Sky

jiml said:


> I saw that yesterday, but it sounds like something got lost in translation between CN's posturing and VIA's. There was supposed to be no impact on the western network. Shutting down the Canadian - and Windsor service for that matter - seemed unnecessary unless VIA plans to furlough staff.


I don’t know how I could be any clearer:


> February 13, 2020
> 
> *VIA RAIL CANCELS MOST OF ITS SERVICES *
> 
> MONTREAL, February 13, 2020 - Following a notice from the infrastructure owner, CN Rail, that they are no longer in a position to fulfill their obligations under the Train Service Agreement between VIA Rail and CN Rail, VIA Rail has no other option but to cancel all of its services on the network with the exception of Sudbury-White River (CP Rail) and Churchill-The Pas (Hudson Bay Railway), until further notice.


https://media.viarail.ca/en/press-releases/2020/rail-cancels-most-its-services

There whole network is clogged with stranded freight trains and they don’t see themselves in a position to navigate any VIA trains around them. That’s highly regrettable, but it’s the reality...


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## neroden

jiml said:


> As in any dispute, there are arguments to be made on both sides. Neroden has certainly articulated the liberal perspective often quoted by the media. However, the elected chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en have agreed to the pipeline in question. Some "hereditary" chiefs have questioned their right to do so, and that is essentially the dispute in BC which has involved court challenges, decisions and the RCMP on native land. I have no opinion on this, but what gets lost is that if a similar dispute happened in Wyoming or Montana, for example, and in sympathy a regional band in the northeast blocked the NEC and/or a heavy freight route, what would the reaction be? Would it have continued this long? If CSX announced it could no longer guarantee "the safety" of passenger trains on their tracks, would Amtrak shut down all those trains?






> It's also important to note that those blocking the tracks do not even have the support of their own band leadership.



It's quite complicated given the presence of conflicting tribal governments (this has been a recurrent issue in the US as well). However, the current legal status is that the "traditional" chiefs have the legal rights to part of the land the pipeline is supposed to go through, specifically the part they've set up the checkpoint on. Canadian federal courts have confirmed this, but BC courts (which lack jurisdiction entirely!) are supporting the trespassing pipeline company.

The underlying grievance is that Canada is still not settling claims for stolen land. In the US, honestly, we have settled a surprisingly large number, with the remainder mostly related to the New York theft of Iroquois lands.

Of course, the fact that the pipeline is being built for fossil fuel infrastructure isn't helping one bit. Movements like Extinction Rebellion have already decided to take direct action to stop fossil fuel infrastructure even where it's fully "legal", because if we don't stop it, it is going to destroy civilization. I honestly can't disagree with their logic, even if I think there are better tactics; the argument of necessity has already been made in court, *and even succeeded* in some courts.

The simple move would be for Trudeau to revoke the permits for the pipeline, which would lead to litigation but quiet EVERYTHING down. He doesn't seem to be smart enough to do that. Building oil and gas pipelines makes Canada an embarassment in the international community anyway. It's a very strange thing to hang your government on.


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## neroden

OK, now I'm laughing at the tweets from an indigenous satire website:

https://twitter.com/TheEagleist/status/1229199169845366790
"EXCLUSIVE: Rail blockades could see cities run out of all the things currently denied to most First Nations"

https://twitter.com/TheEagleist/status/1228393849254535173
"BREAKING: Career politician who lives in taxpayer-funded house and whose party paid for his kid's private school says Indigenous people blocking rail lines need to check their privilege"

https://twitter.com/TheEagleist/status/1225952826314166272
"Reconciliation now includes heavily-armed police: Canada"

https://walkingeaglenews.com/2019/12/16/feds-to-auction-off-excess-reconciliation/
"Feds to auction off excess reconciliation"

https://walkingeaglenews.com/2019/1...st-known-ancestor-of-canadian-reconciliation/
"Scientists discover earliest known ancestor of Canadian reconciliation"

...gives a little perspective on why the protesters are not going to stop until the Canadian government stops invading with armed goons


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## neroden

And an update. The bottom line is that Canada has to stop invading the traditional territory of the traditional Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs -- remove the armed RCMP. Then the protests will stop.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/chief-meeting-mohawks-1.5466109

Interestingly, the Mohawks of Tyendinaga have been legally precise. They have set up camps adjacent to the lines, and requested that CN stop traffic. They have not blocked the lines. (I may be wrong, but it looks like they actually settled the land claim over the CN tracks proper, but not the surrounding land). CN honored their request.

----
Many have asked why the pipeline company did not follow any of the routes which WERE approved by the hereditary chiefs, following already-disturbed land, and insisted on blasting a route which was NOT approved by the hereditary chiefs through pristine land.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...l-gaslink-pipeline-alternative-path-1.5464945

Short answer: the pipeline company wanted to build the pipeline on the cheap while evading additional consultations with tribes and evading environmental analysis in order to build in a hurry.

The correct move for Trudeau is to tell the pipeline company to stop and find another route, taking the time it takes to do it right. But he appears to be unwilling to do the right thing. This is why some of the protest signs say "The federal government is a subsidiary of Enbridge Oil".


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## Anderson

Honestly, it sounds like a judge needs to turn into Oprah and "Everybody gets an injunction!" so this fiasco can be litigated without, y'know, shutting the country down.


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## jiml

Latest release from CN confirms no Amtrak service either.


neroden said:


> The simple move would be for Trudeau to revoke the permits for the pipeline, which would lead to litigation but quiet EVERYTHING down. He doesn't seem to be smart enough to do that.


There are those on both ends of the political spectrum who question whether he is smart enough to dress himself in the morning, let alone negotiate anything. He's at his best taking selfies while on vacation.


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## jiml

neroden said:


> Interestingly, the Mohawks of Tyendinaga have been legally precise. They have set up camps adjacent to the lines, and requested that CN stop traffic. They have not blocked the lines. (I may be wrong, but it looks like they actually settled the land claim over the CN tracks proper, but not the surrounding land). CN honored their request.


Not so much in the early going. The bulldozer and other heavy equipment that started this have been moved from the level crossing they initially occupied, but the threat remains trackside. CN isn't honoring anything except their lawyers' advice.


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## jiml

Anderson said:


> Honestly, it sounds like a judge needs to turn into Oprah and "Everybody gets an injunction!" so this fiasco can be litigated without, y'know, shutting the country down.


Your last point seems to be the objective, with many of the protest locations featuring little or no actual native content.


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## Anderson

jiml said:


> Your last point seems to be the objective, with many of the protest locations featuring little or no actual native content.
> View attachment 16953



Which is my point: The natives get an injunction on the pipeline and then the protestors get an injunction and carted off to jail if they keep blocking things.


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## Seaboard92

I think their banner might have poor design I read something other than shut down Canada when I looked at it the first time.


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## JRR

Seaboard92 said:


> I think their banner might have poor design I read something other than shut down Canada when I looked at it the first time.



Me too!


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## the_traveler

Me three! (Bad place for that railing!)


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## jiml

Several highway bridges to the US have now been closed as well. The problem will be, if the government gives in on this every future complaint will be resolved in this manner. I believe that is called anarchy.


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## Seaboard92

In reality the government is in a devils bargain right now. 

They can opt to resolve the pressing issue of the pipeline but like others have said then any grievance will be handled this way which isn’t a working plan. 

Or and in my opinion the better option. 

They allow the protests to continue till the general public gets tired of it, and the economy starts to show for it. Let some shortages occur, and prices rise just enough it’ll do two things. 

1. The public opinion will change from oh the poor aboriginal tribes, to just end this so our lives go back to normal. And then when Ottawa acts it won’t have a negative effect to the current government. 

2. It demonstrates just how important the trains are in Canada still. And with that we will start to see infrastructure improvements. That there is only one CN route and one CP route between Toronto and Montreal really is a mistake. You need redundancy to a point. Any decent accident could knock out both mains in places then what to do? 

So I say let the supplies dwindle a bit, let it start to bite in the wallet a bit and there will be a more positive outcome.


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## jiml

Seaboard92 said:


> That there is only one CN route and one CP route between Toronto and Montreal really is a mistake. You need redundancy to a point. Any decent accident could knock out both mains in places then what to do?


Good observation. The redundancy used to exist, but generations of abandonment have yielded the current situation. In some cases the two main lines run almost next to each other. Case in point - this shot minutes from my home (©Rob Eull -Railpictures.ca). Upper tracks are CP, lower CN/VIA.


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## Anderson

@Seaboard92 
The problem with that approach is that sooner or later somebody has to decide to give up some votes and some feel-goods to get things moving again. Obviously, how many votes are lost depends on the handling but there's a point where it ought to be worth the government's while to simply tell the tribes "Well, then I guess you'll be voting for somebody else next election" and move on. Arguably, the problem is that this "looks bad" to a lot of _other_ people (who tend to have short memories).

The _other_ problem is that there are a _lot_ of things you can work around with a lot of trucks, etc., so a lot of things will only get but so bad. Bear in mind that there's a lot of freight you can just send via Chicago.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Trains operating entirely between Quebec City and Ottawa will resume operation on Thursday.


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## jiml

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Trains operating entirely between Quebec City and Ottawa will resume operation on Thursday.


Classic example of the squeaky wheel concept. Apparently it's "safe enough" to run trains there and nowhere else.


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## Anderson

jiml said:


> Classic example of the squeaky wheel concept. Apparently it's "safe enough" to run trains there and nowhere else.


Not quite. The blockage for VIA was on the Toronto-Kingston chunk of track, I think, so that portion is unaffected (and shouldn't have much freight interference to boot ;-))

(It wouldn't be practical, but I would have been amused to see VIA set up a schedule of literally pulling the trains up to one side of the protestors and then having folks walk past the protest under guard and board another train.)


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## jiml

Anderson said:


> Not quite. The blockage for VIA was on the Toronto-Kingston chunk of track, I think, so that portion is unaffected (and shouldn't have much freight interference to boot ;-))


I'm aware of where the blockages are located. There was no reason to terminate the Quebec City trains in the first place, however CN cited safety as the reason and VIA shut everything down. Now after the Premier of Quebec squawks publicly "his" trains starting running again. As political as Amtrak is, it will never hold a candle to VIA.


Anderson said:


> (It wouldn't be practical, but I would have been amused to see VIA set up a schedule of literally pulling the trains up to one side of the protestors and then having folks walk past the protest under guard and board another train.)


Brilliant!


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Is it likely that long distance VIA service will be suspended for longer than CN to allow for the backlog of freight to clear? 

I booked on #2 leaving Vancouver March 16th. It seems probable that this will be resolved by then, but I'm also concerned about the reopening of VIA service potentially being delayed for that reason.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Trains operating entirely between Quebec City and Ottawa will resume operation on Thursday.


Trains will also resume operating Thursday on Corridor routes west of Toronto, including the Maple Leaf and trains to Windsor and Sarnia. 

Service from Toronto to Montreal and Ottawa is still suspended in addition to the four overnight trains (except Churchill-The Pas) and trains operating north from Montreal.


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## Anderson

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Is it likely that long distance VIA service will be suspended for longer than CN to allow for the backlog of freight to clear?
> 
> I booked on #2 leaving Vancouver March 16th. It seems probable that this will be resolved by then, but I'm also concerned about the reopening of VIA service potentially being delayed for that reason.


I'm on #2 on March 5. This is gonna be...interesting.

Am seriously wondering about the mechanics of suing _somebody_ over obstructing the tracks, given that there's an injunction involved.


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## jiml

Anderson said:


> Am seriously wondering about the mechanics of suing _somebody_ over obstructing the tracks, given that there's an injunction involved.


But who?


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## Skyline

As a US citizen who usually admires Trudeau and wishes we had him instead of the Orange Blob as our leader, I gotta say he's not shown much leadership in this dispute. Yes, he's caught between a rock and a hard place. But he needs to at least be involved, and try to mediate/compromise. Or failing compromise, take a side. The ultimate goal should be to (1) Respect First Nations' well being and their rights and (2) Get the trains and nation moving again.

He can and must accomplish both goals but he's going to seriously **** off one or both sides in the process. Because the pipeline routing was already in the wrong place, allowed to be placed there through political shenanigans, he's going to need to break with Canada's long tradition of giving natives the finger and do what he can to force the pipeline folks to move their project away from First Nations lands (and while doing so move it anywhere else that would also be more environmentally friendly). This will cost the billionaires many millions and probably cost Trudeau and his party future support from some of them.

Mr. Trudeau: Do the right thing, and this stalemate ends.


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## Bob Dylan

Skyline said:


> As a US citizen who usually admires Trudeau and wishes we had him instead of the Orange Blob as our leader, I gotta say he's not shown much leadership in this dispute. Yes, he's caught between a rock and a hard place. But he needs to at least be involved, and try to mediate/compromise. Or failing compromise, take a side. The ultimate goal should be to (1) Respect First Nations' well being and their rights and (2) Get the trains and nation moving again.
> 
> He can and must accomplish both goals but he's going to seriously **** off one or both sides in the process. Because the pipeline routing was already in the wrong place, allowed to be placed there through political shenanigans, he's going to need to break with Canada's long tradition of giving natives the finger and do what he can to force the pipeline folks to move their project away from First Nations lands (and while doing so move it anywhere else that would also be more environmentally friendly). This will cost the billionaires many millions and probably cost Trudeau and his party future support from some of them.
> 
> Mr. Trudeau: Do the right thing, and this stalemate ends.


The PM already has a Minority Government, so look for the Tories to win the next election!

And,Sadly, dont bet the house on him getting the Pipeline moved, Billionaires always Win!


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## Rasputin

New blockade at Edmonton:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/rail-blockade-wet-suwet-en-edmonton-1.5468200


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## brianpmcdonnell17

VIA has temporarily laid off 1,000 employees.


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## jiml

Urban Sky said:


> If you lay off staff, you have to pay them severance pay and try to rehire them when the line is free again. Therefore, laying people off only makes sense when you have certainty that no train will roll for the next few months and where you have a few weeks notice to re-hire people. This was the case with Churchill when service north of Gillam was blocked for almost 20 months, but it absolutely doesn’t apply to the current situation, where the blockade could be removed any day and service resume within 48 hours.



Sorry, hope you're not affected, but totally predictable.


brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> VIA has temporarily laid off 1,000 employees.


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## Rasputin

New blockade today at Saint-Lambert, Quebec:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/commuter-train-block-protesters-1.5468687


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## Urban Sky

jiml said:


> Sorry, hope you're not affected, but totally predictable.


I was outside the country on some family business for the last 3 days, so still catching up on my Emails, but I appreciate your concerns for me.

This only affects unionized staff (presumably those required to actually run the trains, such as Locomotive Engineers and On-Train Staff), whereas HQ staff like myself are unaffected, as our responsibilities don’t cease when operations do. 

I wasn’t aware that there is such thing as “temporary layoffs” in Canada, but this situation seems to be covered by VIA’s collective agreements. I assume that affected employees can now apply for Employment Insurance, which seems to pay 55% of the average weekly average earnings (but no more than $573 per week)...


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## cirdan

neroden said:


> Of course, the fact that the pipeline is being built for fossil fuel infrastructure isn't helping one bit. Movements like Extinction Rebellion have already decided to take direct action to stop fossil fuel infrastructure even where it's fully "legal", because if we don't stop it, it is going to destroy civilization.



I personally don't see why an organization claiming to be against fossil fuels has chosen to specifically harm trains, thus forcing more people to drive and more freight to be sent by truck.


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## MARC Rider

cirdan said:


> I personally don't see why an organization claiming to be against fossil fuels has chosen to specifically harm trains, thus forcing more people to drive and more freight to be sent by truck.


Because they know if they successfully blocked the highways, you bet Mr. Trudeau would call out the Mounties, the army, etc. and do whatever it would take to clear the blockages as quickly as possible. 

The effects of a rail blockage aren't as immediately obvious to the mass public as a road blockage would be. Blocking the rails puts pressure on the business community that relies on rail freight who can put pressure on the government without totally alienating the general public.


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## jiml

They have blocked a couple of highways and bridges to the US. One estimate suggests that up to 90% of the protesters country-wide aren't even First Nations, but the "protest everywhere" climate crew that have been very prevalent lately. They interviewed several and many didn't even know where the pipeline is located or what it was carrying. The 5 chiefs who started this in BC are going against the 200 who agree with the proposal and stand to make their communities $1 billion CAD in business.

The bottom line is that those blocking the rail lines, etc., in the rest of the country are simply breaking the law. However, resolving it is a "lose-lose" situation for the politicians no matter how it turns out.


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## Skyline

jiml said:


> They have blocked a couple of highways and bridges to the US. One estimate suggests that up to 90% of the protesters country-wide aren't even First Nations, but the "protest everywhere" climate crew that have been very prevalent lately. They interviewed several and many didn't even know where the pipeline is located or what it was carrying. The 5 chiefs who started this in BC are going against the 200 who agree with the proposal and stand to make their communities $1 billion CAD in business.
> 
> The bottom line is that those blocking the rail lines, etc., in the rest of the country are simply breaking the law. However, resolving it is a "lose-lose" situation for the politicians no matter how it turns out.



It shouldn't be surprising that non-natives are among the protesters. Most populous movements, on the left or right, are smart to build coalitions that support each other. It's also a common talking point to demonize this fact.


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## MARC Rider

jiml said:


> They have blocked a couple of highways and bridges to the US. One estimate suggests that up to 90% of the protesters country-wide aren't even First Nations, but the "protest everywhere" climate crew that have been very prevalent lately. They interviewed several and many didn't even know where the pipeline is located or what it was carrying. The 5 chiefs who started this in BC are going against the 200 who agree with the proposal and stand to make their communities $1 billion CAD in business.
> 
> The bottom line is that those blocking the rail lines, etc., in the rest of the country are simply breaking the law. However, resolving it is a "lose-lose" situation for the politicians no matter how it turns out.


Wait a second. Neroden has posted that, in the case of the BC pipeline at the center of this issue, the hereditary chiefs are OK with a pipeline, they just want it on a route that doesn't disturb their land. The pipeline company doesn't want that, because it will be more expensive. Presumably, if the pipleline company caved and built the pipeline where the hereditary chiefs want, that will be it as far as the First Nations are concerned, and the "climate crew" protesters will be hanging out to dry.

By the way, even though I, too agree that global climate change is a crisis that needs to be addressed, I think the tactics of the climate activists are not going to do anything to help out. Shutting down the Canadian economy is not going to convince Canadians that they should consume less or live more lightly on the land. The same applies in multiples south of the border here in the US. I'm not sure how to change hearts and minds, we might just need to wait and endure the climate catastrophe and then maybe people will come to their senses. All I can say is don't buy any coastal property.


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## jiml

MARC Rider said:


> Wait a second. Neroden has posted that, in the case of the BC pipeline at the center of this issue, the hereditary chiefs are OK with a pipeline, they just want it on a route that doesn't disturb their land. The pipeline company doesn't want that, because it will be more expensive. Presumably, if the pipleline company caved and built the pipeline where the hereditary chiefs want, that will be it as far as the First Nations are concerned, and the "climate crew" protesters will be hanging out to dry.


The problem, which Neroden and the liberal media overlook, is that all the elected chiefs chose the current route to maximize the return to their constituencies. This is well-documented and easily searchable, but no one cares. It's not news. The old adage that "if it bleeds, it leads" still applies. Coverage of a pipeline being built peacefully with full First Nations' co-operation does not generate headlines or sympathy. The "pile-on" protesters were described the "new racists" in a column in today's National Post, taking the position that by their actions they are actually diminishing the earned rights of First Nations' people to have an active partnership in the development of their land. 

Whichever side of the argument one agrees with does not change the fact that protests in wide-ranging other locations are illegal acts and should be dealt with accordingly. As mentioned previously, a shutdown of the NEC over a resources protest in the US west would not be tolerated. Let's compare apples with apples.


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## Devil's Advocate

jiml said:


> I have no opinion on this, but...





jiml said:


> ...few fringe elements...





jiml said:


> ...protesters for rent...





jiml said:


> ...liberal media...


For someone who claims to have no opinion you sure keep letting more and more of it slip out.


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## jiml

Devil's Advocate said:


> For someone who claims to have no opinion you sure keep letting more and more of it slip out.


You have taken 4 separate comments out-of-context. I have no opinion on the original dispute in BC. I simply do not know enough about it. The other blockades are illegal acts by any definition.

The fringe elements are those who started blockades without the approval or sanction of their chiefs.

The protesters for rent are those who show up for any type of confrontation without any particular goal or allegiance. It started several years ago in Seattle (look it up), but occurs regularly on both sides of the border.

As in the US, we have liberal and conservative media. The more liberal media are the ones with headlines favoring one side without stating the complete facts. These are the sources being quoted as authoritative by others in this thread. The conservative media are also biased in the other direction. I read both. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and I have never said otherwise.


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## the_traveler

jiml said:


> As mentioned previously, a shutdown of the NEC over a resources protest in the US west would not be tolerated.


If this were to shut down (say) the EB, Washington’s response (especially at Amtrak) would be:


> That’s 1 route down - only 20 more to go!


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## Rasputin

CP blockaded at Kamloops:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trudeau-minister-sees-progress-rail-155044544.html


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## Rasputin

And now a letter from CP. I am not sure that I have seen a letter from CN:

https://www.cpr.ca/en/media/cp-supp...-request-for-dialogue-with-the-prime-minister


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## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Numerous political (off topic) comments were removed. Please keep comments on topic and avoid extraneous poliltical commentary. Thank you.


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## Rasputin

I assume this is the latest Advisory from VIA:

https://www.viarail.ca/en/travel-advisory-information


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## Rasputin

New "partial" blockade of CP at Saskatoon:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/rail-blockades-go-up-in-yxe-1.5472686


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Are there any active blockades along the western routes? There is apparently a freight backlog at Vancouver and VIA isn't running in that area, but the focus seems to be on the blockades in the east. There was a new protest in Saskatoon, but trains are being allowed to pass. If there aren't any protests along the Western VIA lines, what needs to happen for them to reopen?


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## Rasputin

There was a new blockade at Edmonton a couple days ago on CN but I don't know if it is still in effect. 

I assume that before VIA restores service, they need some assurance that blockade season is over and a train won't be stranded en route by a sudden blockade. VIA does not want to have a few hundred passengers stranded at some remote location (or I guess at any location.)


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Rasputin said:


> There was a new blockade at Edmonton a couple days ago on CN but I don't know if it is still in effect.
> 
> I assume that before VIA restores service, they need some assurance that blockade season is over and a train won't be stranded en route by a sudden blockade. VIA does not want to have a few hundred passengers stranded at some remote location (or I guess at any location.)


That makes sense as to why the western trains are going to be the last to resume service. I'm also curious about the freight backlog though, as if it is severe CN may force VIA to postpone the resumption of service even if the blockades are no longer an issue. On their website, VIA updates the cancellation date to 7 days after the present date, although I'm not sure if that is to account for the freight or just hiring back the employees that were laid off and setting things up on their end.


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## Urban Sky

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> That makes sense as to why the western trains are going to be the last to resume service. I'm also curious about the freight backlog though, as if it is severe CN may force VIA to postpone the resumption of service even if the blockades are no longer an issue. On their website, VIA updates the cancellation date to 7 days after the present date, although I'm not sure if that is to account for the freight or just hiring back the employees that were laid off and setting things up on their end.


Maybe it’s also to minimize the risk of notifying passengers that their train has been cancelled only after they’ve already boarded the plane to start a vacation of which the Canadian might have been the centerpiece...


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## Anderson

Is the _Cascades_ operating normally? (It seems fair to ask at this point considering the dumpster fire that is the rest of this situation...)

And I suspect that the seven-day thing is down to...well, a bit of everything, including out-of-rotation equipment. I'm currently having to figure out how I plan to get back from Vancouver if the _Canadian_ gets axed for the rest of next week.

(It has occurred to me that one solution would be to bust up the blockages...but to promptly release any First Nations folks involved while detaining "sympathizers" so as to throw the book at the "rent-a-mob" crowd. If nothing else, bagging them here would create a paper trail that could be used if some of them just seem to be showing up _everywhere_ there's a protest.)


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Anderson said:


> Is the _Cascades_ operating normally? (It seems fair to ask at this point considering the dumpster fire that is the rest of this situation...)
> 
> And I suspect that the seven-day thing is down to...well, a bit of everything, including out-of-rotation equipment. I'm currently having to figure out how I plan to get back from Vancouver if the _Canadian_ gets axed for the rest of next week.
> 
> (It has occurred to me that one solution would be to bust up the blockages...but to promptly release any First Nations folks involved while detaining "sympathizers" so as to throw the book at the "rent-a-mob" crowd. If nothing else, bagging them here would create a paper trail that could be used if some of them just seem to be showing up _everywhere_ there's a protest.)


The Cascades and Maple Leaf are running normally. The protest south of Montreal has been cleared, so I would expect the Adirondack to resume normal service as well.


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## Rasputin

Have we reached the point where the list of what's running is longer than the list of what's not running? I don't think so yet but the situation seems to change day by day.


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## Urban Sky

Rasputin said:


> Have we reached the point where the list of what's running is longer than the list of what's not running? I don't think so yet but the situation seems to change day by day.


Not yet:

Running (44):
20
22
24
25
26
28
29
33
34
35
37
38
39
51 (MTRL-OTTW)
70
71
72
73
75
76
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
87
88
97
98
185
186
622
624
633
635
637
639
690
691
692 (CHUR-TPAS)
693 (TPAS-CHUR)

Not running (52):
1
2
5
6
14
15
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51 (OTTW-TRTO)
52
53
54
55
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
600
601
602
603
604
606
641
643
644
645
646
647
650
651
655
668
669
692 (TPAS-WNPG)
693 (WNPG-TPAS)

Note that this is neither an official nor definite list...


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## brianpmcdonnell17

The Ocean is resuming service on February 28th. No update has been given on the Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal routes, despite the main blockade being cleared this morning. The routes going north of Montreal and the western routes also remain cancelled.


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## Anderson

FWIW, rumblings are that the _Canadian_ ought to be operating as of the end of next week...but it's still a "fog of war" situation there.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

The Churchill train will resume it's full route as of March 1st. Interestingly, although there were no announcements of service resumption, the Canadian cancellation date was moved from the 2nd to the 1st with today's update, whereas it had being pushed back one day with each update previously.


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## jiml

They shut down the GO trains both east and west of Toronto today. No First Nations' involvement at all apparently.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

jiml said:


> They shut down the GO trains both east and west of Toronto today. No First Nations' involvement at all apparently.


There were four separate blockades, but all are now clear and GO is operating normally this morning.

Also, the Canadian consists that were stranded in Winnipeg are on their way back to Toronto and Vancouver.


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## jis

The Maple Leaf will be operating from Thursday apparently.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Service on all Via Rail routes except Jasper-Prince Rupert will be reintroduced over the next week. For the Canadian, only the westbound departing on Wednesday and the eastbound departing on Friday are guaranteed, with everything after that still undecided.


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