# Palmetto 89 Incident in Chester, Pa. (4/3/16)



## JohannFarley (Apr 3, 2016)

There was just an accident south of Philly, not many details yet other than 2 dead.

http://6abc.com/news/2-dead-in-amtrak-train-accident-in-chester/1274225/


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## lo2e (Apr 3, 2016)

Amtrak tweeted that all NEC service is suspended and SEPTA has also suspended Wilmington/Newark service.


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## JohannFarley (Apr 3, 2016)

Amtrak released their statement on their official blog about the accident:

http://blog.amtrak.com/2016/04/update-palmetto-train-89/

Apparently struck a backhoe on the tracks, engine derailed.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

What on earth was a backhoe doing on what is probably 100+mph track? This is not like out in the boonies. It is on a sealed corridor!


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 3, 2016)

jis said:


> What on earth was a backhoe doing on what is probably 100+mph track? This is not like out in the boonies. It is on a sealed corridor!


Second! This isn't Nebraska!


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## greatcats (Apr 3, 2016)

I was most dismayed to wake up to this news.


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## Triley (Apr 3, 2016)

Can't catch a break on the corridor this week, can we?

Hope crew and passengers are safe.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

Well, that takes another ACS out of circulation for a little bit at least. The fact that passengers needed attention suggests that this was not just a little derailment of an engine.


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## offroad437 (Apr 3, 2016)

Anyone know if this has anything to do with the switch problems? Was the backhoe working on a switch?


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/breaking/Chester-Train-Tracks-Crash-Equipment-374406561.html

Apparently two fatalities on ground. There are some passenger injuries.

http://6abc.com/news/2-dead-in-amtrak-train-accident-in-chester;-service-suspended/1274225/

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2016/04/03/amtrak-train-derails-in-chester-service-suspended/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/amtrak-crash-south-philadelphia-leaves-2-dead-article-1.2586840

http://theupperdarbysentinelnews.com/2016/04/03/amtrak-train-derails-in-chester-service-suspended/

http://whnt.com/2016/04/03/two-dead-after-amtrak-train-strikes-backhoe-derails-in-pennsylvania/


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## lo2e (Apr 3, 2016)

Amtrak suspension now just NYC<->Philly, per Amtrak's Twitter feed.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

lo2e said:


> Amtrak suspension now just NYC<->Philly, per Amtrak's Twitter feed.


I am sure that the suspension is in addition to a suspension between Philadelphia and Wilmington, since the incident is in Chester PA, which is between Philly and Wilmington.

Anyway, why would an incident in Chester PA suspend service between New York and Philadelphia begs the question, no? Unless there has been a systemic failure of safety system of some sort, which seems far fetched.


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## Triley (Apr 3, 2016)

Nothing is moving north out of DC at the moment.


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## Triley (Apr 3, 2016)

offroad437 said:


> Anyone know if this has anything to do with the switch problems? Was the backhoe working on a switch?


From what I heard it was not in a work zone, so it was not likely an Amtrak vehicle.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 3, 2016)




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## lo2e (Apr 3, 2016)

Eek, I can't tell if that's a person's legs sticking out of the window or something else that really shouldn't be there... anyone know?


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

A quick look at NJ Transit's Departure Vision for Trenton suggests that all NJT Service is running normally (which means a little late  ), and at least one Keystone headed for Harrisburg is running 10 mins late through Trenton. Of course all NEC spine service is displayed as "Delayed", including train #98 Silver Meteor.

So the thing about suspension of all service between Philly and New York may be inaccurate.


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## afigg (Apr 3, 2016)

Looks as if part of the backhoe equipment struck and possibly penetrated the side of the Amfleet coach car. Could be emergency equipment in the window or a broken off part of the backhoe.

Jeez, what is going on with these collisions? These are happening even on the sealed corridor parts of the NEC.

Edit: the photo shows the train upright, so this is a minor derailment rather than the equipment lying on the ground or scattered,


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## offroad437 (Apr 3, 2016)

lo2e said:


> Eek, I can't tell if that's a person's legs sticking out of the window or something else that really shouldn't be there... anyone know?


Looks like twisted metal sticking out.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

Sigh... scratch an Amfleet I for at least a little while at least.


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## offroad437 (Apr 3, 2016)

Picture posted on CBS Twitter


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

Here is an article from the Patch with the photo posted a few post back:

http://patch.com/pennsylvania/westchester/breaking-amtrak-train-crash-kills-2-service-suspended-northeast-corridor


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## TrackWalker (Apr 3, 2016)

Looks like it may have something to do with the Loram vacuum train seen in some of the the reports. Although there was no a backhoe in use when they were working in our territory.


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## Bex (Apr 3, 2016)

Just found out about this and I have a ticket on 158 tonight. Trying to decide if it's worth buying a bus ticket...


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## Bierboy (Apr 3, 2016)

Sources telling CBS Philly that two Amtrak workers died...ugh.

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2016/04/03/amtrak-train-derails-in-chester-service-suspended/

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/breaking/Chester-Train-Tracks-Crash-Equipment-374406561.html

Amtrak employees with more than 40 years of service between them...sad.


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## offroad437 (Apr 3, 2016)

Not sure but I think the reports of the fatalities being on the ground would appear accurate. I would guess it was the crew with the backhoe.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

Looks suspiciously like the backhoe was actually working on track 4, but was partly and most likely unintentionally, fouling track 3 when 89 came by and got side swiped by the backhoe, spinning the backhoe around to have part of strike the first coach, while derailing the front truck of the engine. Just my guess from the multiple pictures and the layout of things.

One more new report with a long interview with witnesses....

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/breaking/Chester-Train-Tracks-Crash-Equipment-374406561.html


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## Bex (Apr 3, 2016)

Just to answer my own question, and in case anyone else is travelling on the NEC today, Amtrak's Twitter account now says service is suspended "until early Sunday afternoon."


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

NJT Departure Vision at Trenton shows that Amtrak 143 is running to Philadelphia, All Keystone Corridor trains including the Pennsylvanian, are operating between New York and Philly and beyond.

The epic 14 hour late 92 is apparently stuck in this mess somewhere between Wilmington and Chester. Today's 51 is stuck after departing Philly. Presumably 98 is stuck somewhere between Wilmington and Chester too.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 3, 2016)

Someone on FB wonders if the wind may have blown the backhoe into 89's path. We're having wicked winds in this area.


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## priller (Apr 3, 2016)

News Channel 8, in Wash, DC is showing still images of the SouthWest Chief derailment and presenting it as today accident in PA. I'm sure just to be more dramatic.

http://wjla.com/newschannel-8

If this type of fake tabloid reporting really ticks you off, send an email to [email protected]


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

According to a quick live Q&A with Stephen Gardner of Amtrak, There were 35 injuries on the train, none life threatening, two fatalities on the ground. Passengers are being ferried back to Philly by road. Amtrak is operating normally on the Keystone Corridor service between New York and Harrisburg and beyond. He did not give any estimate on when service will be restored. NTSB is on its way, and they will handle all further reporting on details of the incident when they get there.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 3, 2016)

This article from Philly.com show the front end damage to ACS-64 #627. Pretty smashed up. That one will not be back in service for a while.

Philly.com


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> This article from Philly.com show the front end damage to ACS-64 #627. Pretty smashed up. That one will not be back in service for a while.
> 
> Philly.com


Nor will that Amfleet I right behind the engine.


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## afigg (Apr 3, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> This article from Philly.com show the front end damage to ACS-64 #627. Pretty smashed up. That one will not be back in service for a while.
> 
> Philly.com


Yes, that is one seriously beaten up ACS-64. Saw the same photo on the Washington Post website, but your link is better for the photo.

Given the body damage to side of the Amfleet car that was behind the locomotive, the coach car could be a writeoff.


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## Triley (Apr 3, 2016)

A bit off subject but now service is moving between dc and Wilmington.

Currently using 2252's equipment to run as 88 up to Wilmington, and turn for 195 and head back to dc.


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## Bex (Apr 3, 2016)

Triley said:


> A bit off subject but now service is moving between dc and Wilmington.
> 
> Currently using 2252's equipment to run as 88 up to Wilmington, and turn for 195 and head back to dc.


Not off subject to me, thanks. But I gather it will be a while until service returns WIL-NYP?


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

I was really a bit surprised with the suspension of service between Washington and Baltimore and Wilmington. I guess the problem was stationing someone who could uncouple and couple engines at Baltimore or Wilmington.

Which makes me wonder if Amtrak keeps a contingency plan in place for closure of tracks in various segments of the system. Ideally there would be an outline playbook for handling track closures between any two major stops, since afterall there really are not that many to start with.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 3, 2016)

Bex said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > A bit off subject but now service is moving between dc and Wilmington.
> ...


There is a path available for quite some time. Just awaiting for the OK from the scene.Through movement shouldn't be too much longer


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 3, 2016)

jis said:


> I was really a bit surprised with the suspension of service between Washington and Baltimore and Wilmington. I guess the problem was stationing someone who could uncouple and couple engines at Baltimore or Wilmington.
> 
> Which makes me wonder if Amtrak keeps a contingency plan in place for closure of tracks in various segments of the system. Ideally there would be an outline playbook for handling track closures between any two major stops, since afterall there really are not that many to start with.


Why should you be surprised? There were numerous trains in that area with a very limited area to accomplish much. There are also crew constraints to contend with. Sending more trains into an area without a lot of maneuverability is usually not recommended, particularly if you're not taking the majority of the passengers were they want to go. Remember, you have MARC between WAS-BAL, so all you're really adding is WIL.


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## Bex (Apr 3, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Bex said:
> 
> 
> > Triley said:
> ...


Thank you!


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I was really a bit surprised with the suspension of service between Washington and Baltimore and Wilmington. I guess the problem was stationing someone who could uncouple and couple engines at Baltimore or Wilmington.
> ...


Right. Good point.

BTW, the only somewhat reliable info on what Amtrak trains are running in NJ at present appears to be NJ Transit's Departure Vision. The Amtrak train status stuff seem to be completely confused or stating many trains that are running to be is Disruption. Weird. And normally I trust the NJT Departure Vision less when it comes to Amtrak trains.


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## The Chief (Apr 3, 2016)

jis said:


> Looks suspiciously like the backhoe was actually working on track 4, but was partly and most likely unintentionally, fouling track 3 when 89 came by and got side swiped by the backhoe, spinning the backhoe around to have part of strike the first coach, while derailing the front truck of the engine. Just my guess from the multiple pictures and the layout of things.


This conjecture makes sense. Logical. Interested to see cause for this effect.

If two-man MW crew on backhoe, one should always be looking alertly for trains.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 3, 2016)

jis said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...



It is not necessarily weird. The on site status often fails to recognize extra trains or truncated trains. This happens sometimes when equipment is being manipulated en route. In some cases, the number assigned is not the number that is matching a particular schedule.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

I guess one needs both the train status thing and a local departure board info.

I have noticed that say on United Airlines status info, where they are able to provide almost instantaneous update on specific aircraft assigned to a flight, thing are easy to follow as long as a flight number is not changed. To detect that, the best way is to look at the O/D departure/arrival info for the entire day for the airport pair that you are interested in, and it becomes quite clear which flight number was removed and what flight number was substituted for it. Of course for this to work, the departure info has to be instantaneously sunched with the actual dispatching system too. But when it works, it is a thing of beauty.

A similar method works on the Indian Railways and the DB status information user interface too.

Anyway. I suppose this the geeky part of me speaking


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

This is what the inside of the first car looks like - courtesy of Philly.com:

http://media.philly.com/images/1024*1024/20160403-Amtrak-inside-car.jpg


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 3, 2016)

51(3) and 79(3) operated through the area.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> 51(3) and 79(3) operated through the area.


That is good to know since the status system hinted that they were cancelled or disrupted or something.

I suppose track 1 was pretty much in the clear right? Track 2 was probably intruded upon a bit by the derailed ACS on track 3?


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 3, 2016)

jis said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > 51(3) and 79(3) operated through the area.
> ...


88 is showing service disruption (on Paul's site) and 2252 is showing as overdue. But, as stated above and on FB, 2252's train set is being used for 88. So, as mentioned before, switching the #'s, etc, messes the statuses up.


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## Groundpounder (Apr 3, 2016)

Stupid question....if there are workers on or even near the track, don't the trains passing through the area have to slow down?


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## CCC1007 (Apr 3, 2016)

Groundpounder said:


> Stupid question....if there are workers on or even near the track, don't the trains passing through the area have to slow down?


usually, but not always. if there is sufficient clearance to allow for safety while not fouling the other tracks, then they might not have to slow down much.


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 3, 2016)

Groundpounder said:


> Stupid question....if there are workers on or even near the track, don't the trains passing through the area have to slow down?


Workers are not allowed to "foul" a track until they get permission from the dispatcher who will take precautions to make sure that it is safe to do so. On the NEC, when work is going on on a particular track, workers are positioned to signal the other workers when a train is approaching on an adjacent track. However, if working on one track (with proper permission), it is never okay to momentarily foul the adjacent track without getting permission from the dispatcher to do so.

jb


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 3, 2016)

Wow! The engineer was lucky he wasn't killed hitting a heavy-duty vehicle! How fast was the train travelling at the time?

And also, looks like #627 will get written off for sure. Maybe sent off to the scrapyard. The frame took a big bad blow.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 3, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Wow! The engineer was lucky he wasn't killed hitting a heavy-duty vehicle! How fast was the train travelling at the time?
> 
> And also, looks like #627 will get written off for sure. Maybe sent off to the scrapyard. The frame took a big bad blow.


Source on the frame damage please. looked to me like only one axle on the ground, possible that they only hit the larger front bucket, especially since it looks to me like they had the small bucket puncturing the lead coach.


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## Rover (Apr 3, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> This article from Philly.com show the front end damage to ACS-64 #627. Pretty smashed up. That one will not be back in service for a while.
> 
> Philly.com


Thank you for that link.

The article mentions:

_Trains travel in that area as fast as 110 mph, authorities said._

_Officials said the impact with the maintenance vehicle took place in Chester City, but the train continued moving for *another mile *before coming to a stop in Trainer._

Were the brakes or brake controls put out of service with the accident?


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## FormerOBS (Apr 3, 2016)

Brakes out of service or rendered ineffective? Highly unlikely, but it's no surprise that the train took a mile to stop if it was going 100+. We'll have to hear more from the investigators.

I agree with the complaint about using footage of a Kansas wreck on single track involving P42's and Superliners to illustrate a story about an accident involving an ACS-64 pulling Amfleets over the electrified multiple track territory of the NEC. It's something like using a photo of the Queen Mary to describe an Aircraft carrier.

Tom


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 3, 2016)

Rover said:


> The article mentions:
> 
> _Trains travel in that area as fast as 110 mph, authorities said._
> 
> ...


The stopping distance of steel wheels on a steel ribbon at 110 mph.
One make a assumption there was little advance warning of the equipment blocking the tracks.

Perception Time: 1.5 seconds

Reaction Time: 1.0 seconds

Brake Lag: .75 seconds

So about 540 feet traveled after the engineer first see the issue, before the brakes even hit the disks. Now add braking distance at 110 mph with steel wheels on a steel ribbon. That's why your are a mile down the track.

How good is your reaction time at 110mph when your closing on a fixed yellow object? Do you even see it before you hit it?

No facts just would think he applied the brakes just before or right after he made contact.

The numbers are for truck drivers "Total Stopping Distance"

At 65 mph at truck will travel 325 feet with out braking, and another 340 feet for braking. For a total stopping distance of 665 feet needed when traveling at 65 mph. No reason to think a train engineer has a faster perception, reaction, or better brakes lag times than a truck driver.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 3, 2016)

CNN is playing this up Big and that Shy Wallflower Chuck Schumer ( since when does he represent PA. in tbe Senate?) is featured asking something that actually makes sense for once:

*** is a Backhoe doing on an active track with Trains running over 100mph????


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## RSG (Apr 3, 2016)

priller said:


> News Channel 8, in Wash, DC is showing still images of the SouthWest Chief derailment and presenting it as today accident in PA. I'm sure just to be more dramatic.
> 
> http://wjla.com/newschannel-8
> 
> If this type of fake tabloid reporting really ticks you off, send an email to [email protected]


In defense of today's television news, I'm going to wager that the person who put that graphic up didn't even realize it was a “stale” image of another train entirely. In fact, I think it's probably rather remarkable that they didn't use a generic image of a CSX freight train.

The people who work weekends at local TV—even major-market stations with the resources of NewsChannel 8 & its sister station WJLA-TV—are barely more than interns. In fact, they probably _were_ interns somewhere else a year ago. The idea that there's this manipulative Svengali who's always calling the shots, saying something like “It doesn't lead unless it bleeds!” is now a thing for the movies and television dramas. Even the station owners don't sit around watching their product and calling up every time there's an inaccuracy. Yes, it's a quality and attention-to-detail issue, but that detail has gotten lost in the drive to “cover it live!”

Add to that the problem with covering technical issues like transportation, which most Average Joe/Jane journalists don't understand and you have problems right off the bat. Case in point: the segment from WPVI-TV/Channel 6 Action News in Philadelphia which is now making the rounds to the ABC owned-and-operated stations around the country about this morning's incident. The on-the-scene reporter, who seems otherwise competent and experienced, kept referring to “Palmetto train 89”, which she appeared to take directly from Amtrak's Twitter feed. While the info in the feed wasn't inaccurate, it's how it was extrapolated that was the issue. Everyone here knows that the proper way to identify the train would be “Train #89, _The Palmetto_”, but again, those who have no experience with the subject won't understand that. I would imagine the person who put the _Southwest Chief_ image up couldn't tell the difference between that image and one of the _The Palmetto_ involved in today's incident. To them, a train wreck is a train wreck is a train wreck.


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## RSG (Apr 3, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> CNN is playing this up Big and that Shy Wallflower Chuck Schumer ( since when does he represent PA. in tbe Senate?) is featured asking something that actually makes sense for once:
> 
> *** is a Backhoe doing on an active track with Trains running over 100mph????


LOL

Remember when the late Tim Russert used to sign off with “If it's Sunday, it's _Meet The Press_!”? Well, true then and true today: “If it's Sunday, it's Chuck Shumer on camera!”


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## FormerOBS (Apr 4, 2016)

I agree that braking may not be an issue at all. Reaction time may not be an issue either. The impression is that the backhoe was working on an adjacent track. It is possible that the way was clear, then the backhoe, or a part of it, suddenly intruded on the active track just as the train passed. In that event, the engineer may have had no warning whatsoever. This only serves to show that we know a lot less than we would like to know, and there are facts that won't be publicly known until after the investigation is complete. We'll just have to wait.

As for whether anything will be scrapped, let's wait till the shop forces have a chance to look it over.

Right now my concern is for the condition of the engineer and the others who were injured.

Tom


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## CCC1007 (Apr 4, 2016)

This is some of what I've been getting on FaceBook in the Amtrak Northeast Corridor group while trying to be the voice of reason.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwqdz6-eshqRXzlIVVZtS21RX00/view?usp=sharing

EDIT: And they kicked me from the group!!! All that I did was express an opinion that is well within their guidelines. Time for a report of the group for not following their own rules...


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## west point (Apr 4, 2016)

Wonder when the ACS derailed ? With a mile to stop the damage to rail, tie clips, anchors, cross ties may be extensive. Track may be out of service then restricted speed for some time ?


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow! The engineer was lucky he wasn't killed hitting a heavy-duty vehicle! How fast was the train travelling at the time?
> ...


Did you not even see the pictures of the locomotive up front?


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## pennyk (Apr 4, 2016)

Please try to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks and insults.


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## keelhauled (Apr 4, 2016)

We're not sick of foamers, we're sick of people who don't know what they're talking about and pretend that they do.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > CSXfoamer1997 said:
> ...


Yes I did see the front of the locomotive, which is where I could make a guess that a single axle is on the ground, and it really is not very bad from what I can see. Just looks like lots of body work from that angle.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

keelhauled said:


> We're not sick of foamers, we're sick of people who don't know what they're talking about and pretend that they do.


Tell you the truth, I'm a researcher, not a philosopher! And I've heard from other railfans and railroad workers that locos with frame damage have a tendency to get written off! A loco with frame damage has a higher chance of getting written off than getting repaired!

I'm not being a know-it-all, I'm telling you what I've heard from others before! So there!


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## keelhauled (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> > We're not sick of foamers, we're sick of people who don't know what they're talking about and pretend that they do.
> ...


Prove it has frame damage.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 4, 2016)

Besides, what will happen to the equipment is not what should be discussed at this time. 2 people lost their lives in this accident. Unfortunately, foamers and some rail fans are more concerned about poor engine 627.


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## Dutchrailnut (Apr 4, 2016)

on other forum(railroad.net) a video was posted of scene as it is today, train is removed and local track back in service.

Siemens locomotives far more damaged, have been put back in service after repairs in Europe, so any speculation is way premature.


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## Ryan (Apr 4, 2016)

keelhauled said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > keelhauled said:
> ...


Someone else said it on the Internet, therefore it must be true.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

Redacted


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 4, 2016)

I heard on GMA - ABC news something to the effect of questioning why PTC did not stop the train. :blink:


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## Dutchrailnut (Apr 4, 2016)

PTC can not see items not shunting or items not on same track , it is not a cure all.

here is video posted of today.


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 4, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> I heard on GMA - ABC news something to the effect of questioning why PTC did not stop the train. :blink:


The collision occurred on track 3. If track 3 at that location was out of service for track work, and the dispatcher had entered it into the computer correctly, PTC should have stopped the train. However, if the backhoe fouled track 3 without proper authorization, then PTC would have done nothing.

jb


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 4, 2016)

From my uneducated perspective, I can't see how the backhoe was fully on the track, as news illustrations have shown, since the damage to 627 is lopsided.

I am one who will wait for the official investigation rather than believe the news and other <unreliable> sources.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

John Bobinyec said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > I heard on GMA - ABC news something to the effect of questioning why PTC did not stop the train. :blink:
> ...


For those of you with membership access to trainorders, there is some very good and pertinent discussion and information there. Just in case you are curious and have access, you might want to go and take a look there.

The one sentence summary would be that it is conceivable that there was a phenomenal cockup in getting and releasing possession of track for maintenance. One group of people thought that they had possession while another group thought that they did not. Let's just leave it at that for now.


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## cirdan (Apr 4, 2016)

if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

cirdan said:


> if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?


It was not shorting the two rails. Hence no effect on signal.


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## Dutchrailnut (Apr 4, 2016)

Track maintenance equipment does not shunt signal circuits ( at least not reliably) so can not be trusted.

but then again the Back hoe was on outside track (4) while train was on inside track (3)


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

jis said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?
> ...


Why was the track designed to short out if two rails were obstructed and not just one?


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

Ryan said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> > CSXfoamer1997 said:
> ...


Look at the pictures of it on Google Images! Look at how beat up the frame is on the front of the locomotive!


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## keelhauled (Apr 4, 2016)

The whole point of a frame is that it is an interior component that supports the exterior. It is not visible from the outside. What is obviously wrecked is the sheet metal and whatever material makes up the crumple zone, which is designed to absorb the impact of a collision and has clearly done its job. It is impossible to tell from distant pictures what the state of the interior and structure of the locomotive is.


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > cirdan said:
> ...


Track circuits are designed to detect the presence of a locomotive or railcar on the track. Electricity is flowing down one rail. When the equipment shunts the circuit, the electricity is conducted over to the other rail by the wheels and axles on the cars/locomotives. The other rail completes the circuit back to the signal equipment. That sets the signals. Having the track obstructed won't activate the signals unless the obstruction completes the track circuit.

Also, the absence of electricity due to a broken rail will also activate the signal system.

jb


----------



## Ryan (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > cirdan said:
> ...


A) Go learn the basics of how track signaling works and you'll see why.

B) What makes you think that one rail was contacted?


----------



## Ryan (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Look at the pictures of it on Google Images! Look at how beat up the frame is on the front of the locomotive!


I've seen pictures of it. Unlike you, I don't have X-Ray vision to see what's going on inside to make that determination.


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## JoeBas (Apr 4, 2016)

Ryan said:


> A) Go learn the basics of how track signaling works and you'll see why.
> B) What makes you think that one rail was contacted?


Seriously. If you don't even understand this much basic info on how the signals work, you should be asking more questions and making fewer statements.


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## PVD (Apr 4, 2016)

It isn't a complete circuit without 2 sides. In simple terms, that can be rail to rail across a piece of equipment, across a shunt or termination type resistor to allow for monitoring of rails for breaks or faults to ground. Contact with only one side doesnt cut it.


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## FormerOBS (Apr 4, 2016)

One photo showed a rubber tire from the wrecked backhoe.

Even if one or both rails were contaced, rubber don't conduct no lectricity.

Tom


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

JoeBas said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > A) Go learn the basics of how track signaling works and you'll see why.
> ...


Or using Google or Bing to educate yourself. Much more efficient than asking questions here on basic stuff IMHO.


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## PVD (Apr 4, 2016)

Good point, unless it was "hi-railer" style equipment with both rubber tires and steel wheels, but I haven't seen a picture of the actual equipment and am not going to speculate.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 4, 2016)

jis said:


> Or using Google or Bing to educate yourself. Much more efficient than asking questions here on basic stuff IMHO.


Some AUers seem to have an aversion to googling.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

PVD said:


> Good point, unless it was "hi-railer" style equipment with both rubber tires and steel wheels, but I haven't seen a picture of the actual equipment and am not going to speculate.


So far no one has claimed that the signal system did not work correctly, which would indicate that the track circuit was not completed by the back hoe. The more pertinent question to ask is, if the back hoe was really authorized to be on that track why the track was not shorted as apparently is the rule, by a standard track circuit shunt. But that is another thing that we will need to wait for the NTSB's findings.

One should never depend on a lightweight track equipment to provide the shunt for affecting the signaling system They are known not to be too reliable at that.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?

Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?
> 
> Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.


What's the source for the speed at the time of the accident?

How do you know exactly where it derailed? What's the source for that?

jb

And by the way, the NTSB is the official agency that writes the report on accidents like these. They are very thorough. Be advised that it usually takes them about a year to issue the report, so we won't find out the details officially until then.


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## PVD (Apr 4, 2016)

At this point, 2 things are happenning repeatedly: folks are either re stating the obvious "if a backhoe was on the active track someone made a mistake" , or engaging in speculation with little basis in verified facts. Perhaps a count to ten and take a deep breath is in order.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 4, 2016)

John Bobinyec said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?
> ...


I suspect he read it in a newspaper article as a passenger on the train had stated they were going "full bore" at 50-60 mph. Hmm, I'd think "full bore" on that stretch would be 110 mph.

Another of CSXfoamer's reliable sources, I guess.


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## Ryan (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?
> 
> Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.


How much experience is that, exactly?


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## CCC1007 (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > cirdan said:
> ...


Physics dictates that the track circuit sa designed cannot be shorted by just touching one rail.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?
> 
> Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.


back in the late 70's in the St. Louis area, there was a roadrailer train that had one trailer hop off the track. The train traveled four miles with this single axle off the rail before it rerailed it's self on a trailing point switch. All of the BN officials that were called in when the dispatcher had issues lining up the next train through the area were floored that this was even possible. It is not unheard of for a single axle derailed to not provide sufficient friction to compensate for the lost braking power. As the above story, paraphrased from a firsthand account published in Trains Magazine post 2000, clearly demonstrates.


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## hhswami (Apr 4, 2016)

I would think the forward facing video camera in the cab will have much to tell about how this happened, and possibly give clues as to why.


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## cirdan (Apr 4, 2016)

jis said:


> One should never depend on a lightweight track equipment to provide the shunt for affecting the signaling system They are known not to be too reliable at that.


This, and furthermore, when one track of a multi track line is being worked on, isn't there normally a lookout guy to warn workers of approaching trains.

If this guy sees a train coming on the wrong line, shouldn't he signal to the train to stop or else raise hell so that anything blocking the line can be cleared away?


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

All of those things while true, would not give anyone enough time to actually achieve the desired goal when the train is doing 110mph, that is close to two miles a minute (1.83 miles).

Clearly there are several things that went wrong in terms of track possession and protection etc. The fact that there was a change in shift from night shift to day shift just before the incident may have relevance in terms of what information regarding the nature of the possession was transmitted from the outgoing foreman to the incoming one too.

Just let us please wait for the NTSB.


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 4, 2016)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > One should never depend on a lightweight track equipment to provide the shunt for affecting the signaling system They are known not to be too reliable at that.
> ...


With trains moving at normal speed, it's too late to clear the track if something is blocking it. That's why you can't foul a track AT ALL without getting the proper authority to do so.

Besides, the usual warning system, as I recall, is for the lookout to raise a white paddle. Then a horn is sounded. The workers can hear the horn above the din of their track machinery, but the horn means that there's a train approaching on an adjacent track. There is no horn signal denoting that a train is approaching on the same track as the track machinery because it should never happen. And if anyone tries to yell over the din of the track machinery, they won't be heard.

jb


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## seat38a (Apr 4, 2016)

Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???


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## CCC1007 (Apr 4, 2016)

seat38a said:


> Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???


Someone who foams at the mouth when someone else even mentions trains.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

seat38a said:


> Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???


A foamer is an enthusiast. They're known as foamers because it's a little bit like they're foaming at the mouth with excitement. In fact, I'm one of them. I've been a train enthusiast ever since I was little.


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## sitzplatz17 (Apr 4, 2016)

Wikipedia defines a "foamer" as

"A railfan, *rail* buff, [...] or *foamer* (American railroaders), is a person interested in a recreational capacity in *rail* transport. Railfans of many ages can be found worldwide."


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## fairviewroad (Apr 4, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???
> ...





sitzplatz17 said:


> Wikipedia defines a "foamer" as
> 
> "A railfan, *rail* buff, [...] or *foamer* (American railroaders), is a person interested in a recreational capacity in *rail* transport. Railfans of many ages can be found worldwide."


Guys, you're not allowed to answer the question. You're supposed to make a snarky comment about using Google.


----------



## TrackWalker (Apr 4, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > seat38a said:
> ...


Locally we use the term "FRN" and yes feel free to google it. It is there.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Apr 4, 2016)

With the exception of a few people who are planning a unique adventure, most people who frequent an Amtrak forum are foamers.

It's a particularly degrading way to refer to someone who has a passion or an interest. But such is life. Sure I'm a foamer.

There is also "GERF" glassy eyed rail fan.


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## FormerOBS (Apr 4, 2016)

It's generally considered a derogatory term for railfan, although a few of them have embraced it and taken ownership.

Many years ago, Jack White, Curator Emeritus of Transportation at the Smithsonian Institution, also mentioned FLAMs. These are defined as "Foamer, Lives At Mom's".

Tom


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## ScouseAndy (Apr 4, 2016)

Im a newbie to this forum, but its got very old and very tedious how every time CSXfoamer seems to post something a noticable number of members seems to think its acceptable to shout him down and bully him for not knowing as much they do.

Its nothing more and nothing less than cyber bullying in my book done by people Im guessing should be old enough to know better and who if they treated people at their work the way they treat CSXfoamer would be up for a disciplinary action.


----------



## CCC1007 (Apr 4, 2016)

ScouseAndy said:


> Im a newbie to this forum, but its got very old and very tedious how every time CSXfoamer seems to post something a noticable number of members seems to think its acceptable to shout him down and bully him for not knowing as much they do.
> 
> Its nothing more and nothing less than cyber bullying in my book done by people Im guessing should be old enough to know better and who if they treated people at their work the way they treat CSXfoamer would be up for a disciplinary action.


I simply try to provide examples when I see anyone that is spreading falsehoods. Would you consider my comments to be cyber bullying? Please let me know, as I'm genuinely curious about what you see as crossing the line.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 4, 2016)

ScouseAndy: while there is some merit to your post, anyone who is "hurt" by what is posted on a Forum is naive or else needs to get a life!

Civility is always nice but the annonimity of the net allows some people to be jerks and a**holes!


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?
> ...


Wowza! Very amazing indeed!


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

hhswami said:


> I would think the forward facing video camera in the cab will have much to tell about how this happened, and possibly give clues as to why.


Indeed, it would. Only thing is, I dunno if it will be publicly released or not. I mean, it was shown that in the Oxnard derailment that the camera gave investigators some evidence. But for some reason, they never shared cab video with the public.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

For those who might wish to actually learn a bit more about the accident instead of discussing everything else under the Sun, here is a good report from NBC today with some more detailed views of the accident site:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/traffic/transit/Workers-Die-Amtrak-Palmetto-Train-Crash-Backhoe-Chester-374451331.html

From the view from the top of the derailed locomotive, now it seems that the entire front truck derailed, not just one axle.

I doubt that the front facing camera will throw much light on why it happened, since the cause now seems to be more in the area of communication issues between dispatchers and maintenance foremen as I gather from the latest chatter on the subject. This information gathered from some passing comments from someone who knew the two that perished and also the involved foremen. It was indeed a sad day.


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## JoeBas (Apr 4, 2016)

ScouseAndy said:


> Im a newbie to this forum, but its got very old and very tedious how every time CSXfoamer seems to post something a noticable number of members seems to think its acceptable to shout him down and bully him for not knowing as much they do.
> 
> Its nothing more and nothing less than cyber bullying in my book done by people Im guessing should be old enough to know better and who if they treated people at their work the way they treat CSXfoamer would be up for a disciplinary action.


What I don't get is why the Forward-Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) on the train didn't spot this obstruction, and either alert the Engineer to engage the Obstruction Avoidance System (OAS) and jump the the train over the backhoe, or if there wasn't time for that automatically engage the on-board laser Obstruction Removal System (ORS), to remove the obstruction from the train's path.

Weird.

(See what I mean, Scouse? There's a basic level of functioning knowledge you require on a subject to comment on it intelligently (let alone authoritatively), and in too many cases that functional knowledge is either missing or not being applied).


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## west point (Apr 4, 2016)

Any one calculate the visibility at that time of the day ? Only know it was somewhere around +/- daylight ?


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## JoeBas (Apr 4, 2016)

west point said:


> Any one calculate the visibility at that time of the day ? Only know it was somewhere around +/- daylight ?


Sunrise was at 6:42 AM. Accident was at 7:38 AM. So I'm gonna go somewhere in the "Daylight" spectrum.

Though to be fair, some of the eyewitness reports talk about dust obscuration due to strong winds enshrouding the area leading up to the accident.


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## pennyk (Apr 4, 2016)

pennyk said:


> Please try to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks and insults.


I am going to repeat myself and strongly suggest that members stay on topic and avoid personal attacks and insults.

This thread is under review by staff. It is possible that posts containing off topic sniping will be removed.

Thank you in advance for acting like adults.


----------



## jebr (Apr 4, 2016)

This thread has gone wildly off topic, with numerous questionable posts. This thread is locked pending moderator review.

If anyone has more substantial information on the topic in the meantime, PM a moderator and we will review it and post if appropriate.


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## pennyk (Apr 4, 2016)

It is our understanding that there has been an update by the NTSB. We are un-locking this thread with the hopes that relevant information will be posted.

Thank you for avoiding snarky comments and personal insults and attacks.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

Here is a report on the update:

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-backhoe-was-on-track-amtrak-train-was-traveling/1274225/

The video is not from the news conference at 5:30pm, but the text is updated after the news conference apparently.

Ah yes, the speed is said to have been 106mph in a territory where MAS is 110mph for Class B trains. The fact that it was doing that would strongly suggest that it had Clear signal and no TSRs or PSRs were in effect at the time on that segment of track, if ACSES II was working correctly, that is.


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## pksundevil (Apr 4, 2016)

From the NTSB... The backhoe was on the active track. They don't yet know why. The camera has good footage up to the impact. Train was going 106 before emergency mode 5 seconds before impact. The WSJ reports the supervisor was "racing" to try to get the worker off the track. They are looking into why the backhoe was on the track, was the track properly fouled, etc.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 4, 2016)

pennyk said:


> It is our understanding that there has been an update by the NTSB. We are un-locking this thread with the hopes that relevant information will be posted.
> 
> Thank you for avoiding snarky comments and personal insults and attacks.


Aw, I can't snark at Jis for beating me to finding the 6abc article as that's my station.  I had been monitoring it and didn't see the update.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 4, 2016)

jis said:


> Here is a report on the update:
> 
> http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-backhoe-was-on-track-amtrak-train-was-traveling/1274225/


Thanks jis! The voice of reason as usual!


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 4, 2016)

jis said:


> Here is a report on the update:
> 
> http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-backhoe-was-on-track-amtrak-train-was-traveling/1274225/


Lots of information to chew on. It's surprisingly how many fatal incidents Amtrak has suffered recently.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

I read one weird observation by someone..... Amtrak has this program in place called safe2safer or some such which started a while back. Apparently the rate of incidents have doubles since the program started, which would seem to be exactly the opposite of what one would expect if the program was effective. It is hard to make head or tail of the one liner claim since it is not clear how incidents are counted etc. But apparently the program has created a bit of controversy within the work force and buy in into the program is probably less than is desirable. If this is true this would indicate yet another failure of the current executives at Amtrak. I caution you that the jury is still out. Boardman said that they are going to double the effort in the program. It would be interesting to see if that halves or doubles the rate of incidents.

If anyone has any more concrete information on this and is able to share such info would be most welcome. But of course I do not expect anyone to risk their jobs or anything like that just chasing after a persistent rumor.


----------



## Triley (Apr 4, 2016)

jis said:


> I read one weird observation by someone..... Amtrak has this program in place called safe2safer or some such which started a while back. Apparently the rate of incidents have doubles since the program started, which would seem to be exactly the opposite of what one would expect if the program was effective. It is hard to make head or tail of the one liner claim since it is not clear how incidents are counted etc. But apparently the program has created a bit of controversy within the work force and buy in into the program is probably less than is desirable. If this is true this would indicate yet another failure of the current executives at Amtrak. I caution you that the jury is still out. Boardman said that they are going to double the effort in the program. It would be interesting to see if that halves or doubles the rate of incidents.
> 
> If anyone has any more concrete information on this and is able to share such info would be most welcome. But of course I do not expect anyone to risk their jobs or anything like that just chasing after a persistent rumor.


The thing with incidents "doubling" since Safe2Safer started is rather bogus. The amount of _reported_ incidents may have doubled, but this is due to a safer environment with management when it comes to reported injuries. From what I heard, management use to frown upon injuries being reported because it made them/their peers look bad.

Then again, Safe2Safer has been around since I've started, and I volunteered to be trained as an observer so I can coach my peers, so obviously I have no issues with the system. In fact, it actually has made me more conscious about moving about safely when working aboard the trains.

Regardless, this has more to do with personal system in the sense of having the required safety gear for the craft/job required, proper shoes, "smart" techniques when walking around, proper lifting, etc. Doesn't really pertain to motor operations or incidents that go as deep as this.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

Triley, thanks for the info, and good to clear the air about rumors floating around. I was wondering whether larger number of reported incidents would be the result of creating a less hostile environment allowing people to report things that they would not in a more hostile environment. When United instituted such a while back they had an initial spike in their statistics too. I guess in the steady state of operation it should show a trend towards decrease of reporting rates as the environment becomes safer due to improvement in procedures and training etc.


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## jis (Apr 4, 2016)

Here is much more additional info from _Trains _magazine, though it is hard to verify the veracity of information from an unidentified source. But in the past _Trains_' sources have been relatively reliable.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/04/04-palmetto-update


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 4, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a report on the update:
> ...


Indeed, I can agree with you. So far, it sure hasn't been quite a good year for Amtrak. First, the Philly accident last year, then loco #66 on one of the Illinois regionals hit a container truck, then the Chief derailed in Cimmaron, Amtrak trains have killed pedestrians, and now this crash. Pretty bad luck this year. Way too many unreasonable accidents.


----------



## Dutchrailnut (Apr 4, 2016)

here is another : http://www.nbcnews.com/video/investigators-human-error-may-have-caused-deadly-amtrak-crash-658806851533


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## Acela150 (Apr 4, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Grade Crossing Incidents happen everyday. Just because Amtrak is involved in one doesn't change the fact that they happen everyday.

Ridership has taken a hit due to the Frankford Junction Incident and the derailment in Vermont, but another factor is gas is cheap. The derailment in Vermont was due to a rockslide. Nothing within Human control.


----------



## StriderGDM (Apr 4, 2016)

Triley said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I read one weird observation by someone..... Amtrak has this program in place called safe2safer or some such which started a while back. Apparently the rate of incidents have doubles since the program started, which would seem to be exactly the opposite of what one would expect if the program was effective. It is hard to make head or tail of the one liner claim since it is not clear how incidents are counted etc. But apparently the program has created a bit of controversy within the work force and buy in into the program is probably less than is desirable. If this is true this would indicate yet another failure of the current executives at Amtrak. I caution you that the jury is still out. Boardman said that they are going to double the effort in the program. It would be interesting to see if that halves or doubles the rate of incidents.
> ...


Probably should be broken off to its own thread, but as I recall Safe2Safer is based on the Aviation Safety Reporting Systems from the FAA. The idea is that more that we know about accidents, the better we can prevent them. They're anonymous (and with the ASRS handled by NASA as a neutral 3rd party). Rather than punishing people for accidents (especially ones that don't result in loss of life or equipment) it encourages people to report.


----------



## seat38a (Apr 4, 2016)

I was on the train last year when this happened. Then the train after us also hit another car near Fullerton. In my case, the moron drove off from where the Fire Truck is, the just left the truck smack dab in the middle of the track. No one was killed but F*(#ed up the day for many many people. Weather its on the freeway or the railroad, or in some cases fly off the freeway onto the railroad, Amtrak just can't seem to get a break from drivers making bad decisions. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the SWC derailment also caused by a truck damaging the rails?



IMG_0167 by B H, on Flickr



IMG_0164 by B H, on Flickr



IMG_0190 by B H, on Flickr



IMG_0194 by B H, on Flickr


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## HighBall (Apr 5, 2016)

Inside the train. Photos taken by a doctor.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3523396/Shocking-pictures-devastation-inside-Amtrak-train-collided-backhoe-emerges-two-killed-track-workers-colossal-error-moments-crash.html












http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/04/23/32D9B56900000578-3523396-image-a-1_1459810413986.jpg[/IMG]


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 5, 2016)

HighBall said:


> Inside the train. Photos taken by a doctor.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3523396/Shocking-pictures-devastation-inside-Amtrak-train-collided-backhoe-emerges-two-killed-track-workers-colossal-error-moments-crash.html
> 
> ...


Yeouch!


----------



## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

From the _Washington Post_ after the _NTSB _presser:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/amtrak-train-struck-backhoe-at-106-mph-2-killed-on-track/2016/04/04/ac5cce2e-facc-11e5-813a-90ab563f0dde_story.html

And a pretty concise, further updated report from 6ABC:

http://6abc.com/news/victims-in-fatal-amtrak-collision-idd/1274225/


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 5, 2016)

Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!

But again, despite the damage to the locomotive, the engineer sure was lucky he wasn't killed! And definitely lucky he didn't sustain life-threatening injuries!

Had those new locos not been equipped with such safety features, such as Crash Energy Management, it could've been about 50 times worse!


----------



## Hal (Apr 5, 2016)

StriderGDM said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


No. You are thinking of the Close Call Reporting System. That is not Safe2Safer. Safe2Safer is a phony safety program where coworkers observe other coworkers and report they are doing stuff unsafe like not watching where walking or lifting something properly. It has nothing to do with operating safety. Many workers like the program because they get days off to observe. Safe2Safer does not cause more accidents and likely does not prevent many injuries which is what the program is about. Injuries like getting a finger into a pinch point. The idea of the program is to lower time off and claims from injuries. It's a feel good worker participation program. And I suspect a bonanza to the contractor who sold Amtrak the program. 
Now Amtrak is going in another direction, the Cardinal Rules. Blame the workers and punish them. I am not going to go into that. Like Safe2Safer that is not a real safety program either.

Amtrak does have a safety problem. Amtrak management...


----------



## Hal (Apr 5, 2016)

https://www.bmwe.org/cms/file/04052016_082049_BMWED%20Statement%20on%20Fatal%20Amtrak%20Accident,%20Chester%20PA%20FINAL.pdf

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CCC1007 (Apr 5, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!
> 
> But again, despite the damage to the locomotive, the engineer sure was lucky he wasn't killed! And definitely lucky he didn't sustain life-threatening injuries!
> 
> Had those new locos not been equipped with such safety features, such as Crash Energy Management, it could've been about 50 times worse!


Or it could have been a multi axle derailment fouling all four tracks and tearing them up. Think On the order of Chase, MD.


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## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

Yeah, given that it was a 106mph event, the damage is surprisingly small. Thank the stars or whatever for that piece of good luck.


----------



## OBS (Apr 5, 2016)

With all due respect to my coworker Triley, I have to totally agree with every word HAL stated about both safe 2 safer and the "wonderful" Cardinal rules safety project!


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## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

OBS said:


> With all due respect to my coworker Triley, I have to totally agree with every word HAL stated about both safe 2 safer and the "wonderful" Cardinal rules safety project!


Hal's message certainly clarified the scope of the issue and also to some extent seemed to be in line with the impression I got from reading the Wall Street Journal article on this matter. I suppose this post further corroborates that position.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 5, 2016)

jis said:


> Yeah, given that it was a 106mph event, the damage is surprisingly small. Thank the stars or whatever for that piece of good luck.


The credit ought to go to Siemens. They were the ones that built the locos.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 5, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!
> ...


You're definitely right about that.


----------



## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, given that it was a 106mph event, the damage is surprisingly small. Thank the stars or whatever for that piece of good luck.
> ...


It is more than just the locomotive. It was sheer luck that no parts of the disintegrated back hoe went under the train to derail the entire thing while it was slowing down from 106mph. That would have been catastrophic. That is the sort of thing CCC is talking about


----------



## PaulM (Apr 5, 2016)

jis said:


> Or using Google or Bing to educate yourself. Much more efficient than asking questions here on basic stuff IMHO.


Whoa! Why is it that newbies are allowed to ask all kinds of questions about riding Amtrak that have been asked and answered many times; but when it's something technical, the snarks come out in force?


----------



## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

An interesting article with some closer up photos from _the Railway Age_:

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/safety/two-killed-in-wreck-of-amtrak-palmetto.html


----------



## jebr (Apr 5, 2016)

Remember that this discussion is about the Palmetto derailment. Keep it on topic.


----------



## StriderGDM (Apr 5, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!
> 
> But again, despite the damage to the locomotive, the engineer sure was lucky he wasn't killed! And definitely lucky he didn't sustain life-threatening injuries!
> 
> Had those new locos not been equipped with such safety features, such as Crash Energy Management, it could've been about 50 times worse!


You sort of contradict yourself here. Sure, some luck I suppose was involved, but really, this is engineering.

And as others have pointed out, this is a great example of how CEM can and should work.


----------



## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

StriderGDM said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!
> ...


I agree. Personally, I think the lucky part was that the major pieces of the back hoe all got thrown clear off the track and no part large enough to cause harm managed to get under the train. That would have resulted in a bad thing. The front design of the locomotive assuredly played a part in making that happen too.


----------



## OBS (Apr 5, 2016)

Great article from Railway Age. Thanks Jis!


----------



## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

You're welcome!


----------



## jis (Apr 6, 2016)

This article in WSJ is a must read!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-crash-probe-indicates-basic-safety-measure-wasnt-deployed-1459885465

If you can't read of it because of subscription issues, just do a google search for "*Amtrak Crash Probe Indicates Basic Safety Measure Wasn’t Deployed", *and click on the WSJ article link. That should bypass the pay barrier.

Some key quotes from the article:



> An investigation into this week’s Amtrak crash in Chester, Pa., indicates railroad crews didn’t deploy a basic, decades-old safety measure that experts say could have prevented a collision that killed two workers and injured more than 30 passengers, people familiar with the matter said.
> 
> Crews performing track work on a stretch of Amtrak’s heavily traveled Northeast Corridor on Sunday apparently didn’t put in place what is known as a supplemental shunting device ...


and



> Amtrak crews don’t always use shunting devices when performing work, this person said. “It’s pretty common they don’t use them,“ this person said. “The attitude is ‘ah, we’re only going to be here for a little bit—we’re going to get in and get out of here.’ The more responsible people use them all the time.”


Oh really? This is sort of like handling ammo while smoking a cigarette or something like that no?

and furthermore



> On Monday, Amtrak official Gary Noto asked colleagues to procure supplemental shunting devices, or SSDs, for crews to use when they perform track work in short windows known as “foul time.”
> 
> “Please get supply of SSD’s for all crews, we must use them whenever getting foul time, the only exception I can think of is the track inspector who is walking miles of track and when signal system cannot support this action,” Mr. Noto said in an email reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. “Please make it a point to be vigilant when visiting [work] gangs and do what you can to teach and mentor them, when deficiencies are observed.”


So one could surmise that currently the work crews are not supplied with SSDs?

I am just shaking my head and going "Wow! Just WOW!". And we are just worried about WMATA's safety culture.... Oh well. Either WSJ is publishing a hugely deceptive article or Amtrak has a huuuuuge safety culture problem. I am open minded to be convince by someone that WSJ has got it wrong.

Also, if you have subscription access to trainroders.com, reading the following thread may be very educational:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4002362,page=1


----------



## Railroad Bill (Apr 6, 2016)

Whenever someone takes a short cut on safety, there is a large possibility that something bad will happen eventually. My brother found that many of his older colleagues did not like all the " new fangeled rules" and sometimes liked to do their own thing. An accident waiting to happen


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 6, 2016)

Wow is right! If this is correct this will be another hit to Boardman's Safety Legacy with Amtrak!

As you said, Unbelievable!


----------



## jis (Apr 6, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Wow is right! If this is correct this will be another hit to Boardman's Safety Legacy with Amtrak!
> 
> As you said, Unbelievable!


Unfortunately these practices apparently date all the way back to the 1990's when the SSD rules were put in place and apparently soon thereafter for various reasons a significant proportion of the people that the rules were supposed to apply to started ignoring the rules and Amtrak management did not seem to feel that it was worth enforcing the safety rules. So it is not just a Boardman problem. it appears to be a deeper systemic problem that has been festering now for over 20 years.

Rules are not worth the paper that they are written on if there is no governance mechanism in place to verify that the rules are actually being followed. Providing such governance is the job of the management. Apparently they have not been very successful in carrying out their job.

BTW, the specific rule in question is apparently this one:



> 140-S2. USE OF SUPPLEMENTAL SHUNTING DEVICE
> 
> This instruction requires the employee in charge of “covered fouling activities” to apply an approved Supplemental Shunting Device (SSD) to the track(s) to be fouled, after receiving foul time from the Dispatcher or Operator. The purpose of the SSD is to supplement, not replace, blocking device protection provided by the Dispatcher or Operator.
> 
> ...


Of course there still remains some confusion about whether the Dispatcher was actually aware of the foul time on track 3, and even if s/he was, then why such was not entered in the control system. So there is more to come I am sure.


----------



## jis (Apr 6, 2016)

And here is an article that seems to be chasing ghosts  But still interesting....

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20160405_Reuters_L2N1780LG_Amtrak_crash_shows_U_S__anti_rail_collision_system_may_have_gaps.html#ftdPxbwc7KxIq739.99


----------



## PRR 60 (Apr 6, 2016)

I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.

I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 6, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.
> 
> I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.


Now, uh, about the #188 accident, has it been determined whether engineer Bostian is at fault or not?


----------



## Bob Dylan (Apr 6, 2016)

Seconded Bill! And what's the New Avatar? Thought you were a PRR guy for Life?


----------



## PRR 60 (Apr 6, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Seconded Bill! And what's the New Avatar? Thought you were a PRR guy for Life?


That is the Villanova Block "V." My beloved Wildcats are National Champions - and my wife and I were in Houston to see it happen in person. I'm still trying to catch my breath after that incredible final game against North Carolina.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Apr 6, 2016)

Thanks Bill, lucky you, truely a game for the ages and a heartbreaker for the Tarheels but America loves Underdogs!

It was exciting on TV,( I didn't have a dog in the hunt but my Longhorns did beat UNC on a Buzzer Beater Last Second Shot in Austin this year!),I can imagine that it was crazy in the Dome!


----------



## John Bobinyec (Apr 6, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.
> ...


The NTSB has not yet released their report. It takes something on the order of a year for that.

jb


----------



## CCC1007 (Apr 6, 2016)

John Bobinyec said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > PRR 60 said:
> ...


I would expect that report in the next six months.


----------



## fairviewroad (Apr 6, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap.


It's the same rationale that pedestrians use for crossing the tracks at a location that's convenient for them but is not a legal crossing. It works great until the time it doesn't.


----------



## jis (Apr 6, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.
> 
> I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.


It should involve not only Boardman but the retinue of bureaucrats that he has brought in from the FRA in various key positions of relevance in this incident, who have all been remarkably silent while the fire burns their tent down.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Apr 6, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Seconded Bill! And what's the New Avatar? Thought you were a PRR guy for Life?
> ...


Well, *I* knew why you changed your avatar.


----------



## JoeBas (Apr 6, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, *I* knew why you changed your avatar.


I'm sure all of us Delaware Valley folk did.


----------



## Rover (Apr 6, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Thanks Bill, lucky you, truely a game for the ages and a heartbreaker for the Tarheels but America loves Underdogs!
> 
> It was exciting on TV,( I didn't have a dog in the hunt but my Longhorns did beat UNC on a Buzzer Beater Last Second Shot in Austin this year!),I can imagine that it was crazy in the Dome!


Yes, Lucky you Bill!!! I NEVER got to personally witness my UT Longhorns win any Championships !!!

I was attending school there from the Fall of 1973, so those four years SUCKED for Championships. There were SWC Titles, but --NO-- Cotton Bowl victories in my tenure. And NO wins over OU --- just one stinkin' tie, which as Darryl Royal so aptly said, "is like kissing your sister!"  But... Texas does hold the record, twice, for longest consecutive wins over OU, "8".


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 6, 2016)

Today's trainorders has a post with Boardman's official statement on the 89 Incident.

It's basically boilerplate and lawyer tuned corporate speak, but does contain one misstatement about Amtrak's "stellar" Safety Record during his watch.

Not able to link but you can read it for free on trainorders.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Apr 6, 2016)

jis said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Wow is right! If this is correct this will be another hit to Boardman's Safety Legacy with Amtrak!
> ...





PRR 60 said:


> I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.
> 
> .


I usually stay out of these types of discussions for obvious reasons, but it is quite clear. We're assuming that the crew in question knew they were fouling. The rule states the use of a SSD is not required if the track was under FORM D Line 4 or 5 Authority.

Do either of you gentlemen know for certain that

a) the track was not under form d line 4 or 5

or

b) for one reason or another, the crew had reason to believe the track was under Form D Line 4 or 5.

I'm going to state that it is unlikely that a Line 5 was in play, but SSDs are not for all circumstances as listed above, particularly if a line 4 is used and the equipment fits the exceptions for that applicable rule. I may need to go out on a track and although I can't legally "foul," I can "hold." When I'm holding, I'm not going to have access to nor am I required to use the SSD.

There is a lot more to this than 15 or so lines that was presented out of a page and a half of rules. As Jis intimated, more details need to come out.



PRR 60 said:


> I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.





jis said:


> It should involve not only Boardman but the retinue of bureaucrats that he has brought in from the FRA in various key positions of relevance in this incident, who have all been remarkably silent while the fire burns their tent down.



Obviously, I can't comment on these statements but I also wonder what is happening with the Board of Directors. The silence is indeed deafening.


----------



## JoeBas (Apr 6, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> It's basically boilerplate and lawyer tuned corporate speak, but does contain one misstatement about Amtrak's "stellar" Safety Record during his watch.
> 
> .


It could be argued that, technically speaking, a black hole is a star. Just saying.


----------



## jis (Apr 6, 2016)

The OIG Report on safety record at Amtrak starts off with this remarkable piece of bureaucratese!:



> The company has demonstrated a strong commitment to Safe-2-Safer, investing about $70.1million in the program since 2009.
> However program results have been mixed and opportunities for improvement exist. Specifically (the bold highlights applied by me)
> 
> 
> ...


Wait what? Things have improved and we have more injuries and higher claims payments? That is around $125 million in what a $3 to $3.5 billion (give or take) company. I wonder what the corresponding ratios are for other passenger carriers. Maybe that is close to the norm. I don't know. But off hand seems kinda high. Also has the trend line improved since the time of this report? I don't know, but certainly hope so.

Anyway, it is an interesting read. You can find it at: https://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2015-007.pdf

Specially Figure 7 on page 13 is impossible to spin in a positive way I am afraid.

BTW, Thirdrail. I absolutely agree that there are many other factors, and indeed it is possible and possibly even quite likely that due to miscommunication everyone was not on the same page in this particular case. One possible consequence is that the folks on the track were themselves not at fault for not applying SSD. But the fact still remains that a piece of equipment and a fast train traveling at over 100mph happened to be trying to occupy the same physical location at the same time, and that is demonstrably a breakdown of safety in some extremely serious way, with extremely serious consequences.

It is inevitable that such an incident will increase scrutiny and various facts that were not known to outsiders like me would become known and on occasions we might draw the wrong conclusions. However, though possibly a bit unrelated (different sort of safety issues being addressed), still, I find the OIG report on trends since 2009 quite alarming. One of the things that is of equivalent importance in the IT industry is information security and availability (which is where my expertise lies), where typically people don't get killed as often (though it could happen) but billions and trillions can be lost and reputations destroyed, with break in security of information, And lord knows we have our bad days too. But if a single company had a trend line like the one in Figure 7 quoted above, there would be many heads that would roll quite immediately. The fact that nothing happens at Amtrak concerns me and I am sure others.

Board of Directors of large corporations is a mystery to me. They seem to be quite oblivious of many things that they ought to know about in their decision making process, which is alarming too. Then again there are persistent rumors that many Board members are just rubber stamps and hold the positions due not necessarily to any specific expertise that they have in the area of managing the specific activity of the company. Who knows?


----------



## Big Iron (Apr 6, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Seconded Bill! And what's the New Avatar? Thought you were a PRR guy for Life?
> ...


Back in 2009 when Villanova won the 1-AA Football National Championship I was in the Met. lounge in CHI and saw a gentleman in a Nova sweatsuit. I congratulated him on the championship. He looked at me funny and said basketball season isn't even over yet.


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## jis (Apr 7, 2016)

Here is a closeup of the front end damage to ACS 627, then parked in Race St. Yard in Philly, wit the entire consist of 89.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4434018

The damage now appears to be relatively superficial. but of course only an expert taking a closer look can tell for sure.

Since then it has been moved out of there, possibly to Wilmington, per report around 4:50pm on Wednesday April 6.

Here is a general view before the engine was moved:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4434017


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 7, 2016)

jis said:


> Here is a closeup of the front end damage to ACS 627, then parked in Race St. Yard in Philly, wit the entire consist of 89. The damage now appears to be relatively superficial. but of course only an expert taking a closer look can tell for sure. Since then it has been moved out of there, possibly to Wilmington, per report around 4:50pm on Wednesday April 6.


A random hobo told me the lomotive has severe frame damage and that it's scheduled to be scrapped next week.


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## jis (Apr 7, 2016)

LOL!


----------



## Blackwolf (Apr 7, 2016)

jis said:


> Here is a closeup of the front end damage to ACS 627, then parked in Race St. Yard in Philly, wit the entire consist of 89.
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4434018
> 
> ...


And if you look closely at that last photo, you'll catch a view of the three new VLII cars; bagg-dorm, diner and sleeper looking ready to head south.


----------



## andersone (Apr 7, 2016)

the gospel according to random hobo's ,, count me in


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 7, 2016)

Just because you have one does mean you have to be one.


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## jis (Apr 7, 2016)

So, it looks like the FRA issued a specific directive to Amtrak regarding safety issues last (April 6) night....

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/in-transit/Feds-confirm-Amtrak-failed-to-follow-safety-rules-in-fatal-train-crash.html


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## jis (Apr 7, 2016)

Wall Street Journal has a new article on the riot act that has been read to Amtrak, and which Boardman has described as a good thing(!) because it will finally convince everyone that safety is really important!!!

Leaving that aside for the moment, the WSJ article is at: http://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-railroad-administration-calls-for-immediate-amtrak-safety-reviews-1460000996

As usual, if you are not a WSJ subscriber you will have difficulty getting to see the whole article. you can try the google trick mentioned in the previous pointer to a WSJ article. but meanwhile here is a critical quote from the article which has a bearing on what Thirdrail mentioned in his post yesterday:



> Though officials haven’t yet completed their investigations into what went wrong, they already have uncovered violations of safety protocols that are “sufficiently troubling” that the agency decided to step in, an FRA official said.
> 
> Investigators have learned that the foreman of one of the work crews contacted a dispatcher using a cellphone, not an Amtrak-issued radio, a person familiar with the matter said. That is a frequent practice, some in the industry said, and it is permitted in some cases by Amtrak rules, where dead spots don’t allow radio communications to work.
> 
> ...


 So it would appear that the two poor souls as far as they knew were working on a protected piece of track. What is more galling is the person that used the cell phone was nowhere near the work site when he released the foul by cell phone, and the dispatcher accepted it, because apparently Amtrak safety culture allows such to take place often as a matter of routine. This fellow just apparently packed off and left without even bothering to talk to the incoming foreman!

Meanwhile on the matter of shunting, apparently back in '98, both Amtrak and FRA thought it was a bad idea to use shunts of any sort, and everything should depend just on the sanity and correctness of the dispatcher's actions with no fall back stop for the safety of the poor souls on the track. There is an interesting article quoting an article from back then from Philly.com on the controversy regarding shunting that brewed back than:

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/in-transit/Amtrak-train-crash-mirrors.html


----------



## Rover (Apr 9, 2016)

_April 8, 2016_

The National Transportation Safety Board expects to issue a preliminary findings report on the crash within 10 days.

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2016/04/08/after-deadly-crash-amtrak-must-retrain-workers-on-safety/


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 9, 2016)

jis said:


> Here is a closeup of the front end damage to ACS 627, then parked in Race St. Yard in Philly, wit the entire consist of 89.
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4434018
> 
> ...



That entire consist (including the 627) is still in Race Street. It won't be for too much longer, but it is still there now.


----------



## Acela150 (Apr 10, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a closeup of the front end damage to ACS 627, then parked in Race St. Yard in Philly, wit the entire consist of 89. The damage now appears to be relatively superficial. but of course only an expert taking a closer look can tell for sure. Since then it has been moved out of there, possibly to Wilmington, per report around 4:50pm on Wednesday April 6.
> ...


----------



## warrenwarner (Apr 10, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a closeup of the front end damage to ACS 627, then parked in Race St. Yard in Philly, wit the entire consist of 89.
> ...


Is the locomotive in bad shape? Do we know if it's going to Bear, Delaware? How will they repair it?

What about the cars on the train? I heard there was damage to the first car, will it need to be scrapped? Was there anymore damage to the other cars?


----------



## Walt (Apr 10, 2016)

I've been reading thru here, and the articles in the news, and I don't see what Amtrak itself did wrong. It seems to me, that Amtrak has all the right rules and procedures already in place, to prevent this from happening. Its just, for some reason not clearly known yet, they weren't followed.


----------



## CCC1007 (Apr 10, 2016)

Walt said:


> I've been reading thru here, and the articles in the news, and I don't see what Amtrak itself did wrong. It seems to me, that Amtrak has all the right rules and procedures already in place, to prevent this from happening. Its just, for some reason not clearly known yet, they weren't followed.


It's a corporate culture issue when it comes to safely fowling a track. Ever since the rules were put in place, from what I've heard, the rules have been enforced only once in awhile.


----------



## neroden (Apr 10, 2016)

The problem appears to be that tracks are being released from the foreman to the dispatcher when they shouldn't be. The foreman did not perform his job correctly and got people killed as a result.

The foreman is supposed to confirm that:

(a) all equipment or debris which might prevent safe movement of trains is off the track,

(b) individually confirm that each member of his crew is safely off the tracks,

(c ) individually confirm that each member of his crew knows that he is planning to release the track back to the dispatcher,

before actually releasing the track back to the dispatcher.

This is just general principles of safeworking, not even any specific rulebook.

It's obvious this didn't happen.

If the foreman was supposed to be handing the track off to a different work crew, the procedure might be different but the principles are the same....

CSX has an extremely talkative method of handling work zones. Amtrak doesn't, and probably should.

I never found out what the rules violation was on the Empire Service train I was on which killed a trackworker in fall of 2014. I've been waiting for the NTSB investigation report but I haven't seen one.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 10, 2016)

warrenwarner said:


> Is the locomotive in bad shape? Do we know if it's going to Bear, Delaware? How will they repair it?
> 
> What about the cars on the train? I heard there was damage to the first car, will it need to be scrapped? Was there anymore damage to the other cars?


Unfortunately warrenwarner, unlike some other members of this board, I can't look at a picture (or actually look at one in person) and tell if it is "in bad shape." To me, if it doesn't appear as it did when it was delivered, it is in bad shape! So, I can't tell you how they will repair it, if it is indeed repairable. I DO know upon release (any day now), it is not going to Bear.

Same goes for the cars. I have seen things that looked worse but who knows what happened underneath. It is premature to speculate until they are over a pit and fully inspected. I do know that some cars are likely a little worse wear than others which is why certain cars are going to different facilities.

Use your imagination.


----------



## Acela150 (Apr 11, 2016)

As of 2pm today the train consist of 89 was no longer in Penn Coach Yard.


----------



## VentureForth (Apr 11, 2016)

Let me ask here for some clarification. From the little bits that I've parsed, the backhoe was operating on an adjacent track - not the one that the Palmetto was actually on.

Obviously, if the train hit the backhoe and spun the bucket into the first car, there was a conflict (duh).

My question is, if there are four tracks, and say 89 was on track 2, and the backhoe was on track 3, could track 3 still be considered "protected" even though there is a chance that it could foul track 2?

I guess my question is, what constitutes a "protected track"? Obviously, it has to be more than just the track being worked on.

The way some articles read, sound like the backhoe was on the same track as 89, which I don't think was the case. Please enlighten me.


----------



## CCC1007 (Apr 11, 2016)

VentureForth said:


> Let me ask here for some clarification. From the little bits that I've parsed, the backhoe was operating on an adjacent track - not the one that the Palmetto was actually on.
> 
> Obviously, if the train hit the backhoe and spun the bucket into the first car, there was a conflict (duh).
> 
> ...


My understanding is that 89 was on track 3, LORAM was on track 2, and the backhoe was supposed to have a foul on track 3. The accident happened just after shift change, and the previous supervisor had released the track back to the dispatcher, with the new supervisor not yet in possession of track 3.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 11, 2016)

I was under the impression the train and backhoe were on the same track.

Will have to wait to be certain. NTSB report will make it clear.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 11, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I was under the impression the train and backhoe were on the same track.
> 
> Will have to wait to be certain. NTSB report will make it clear.


The photos of the damage seem to indicate that the train did not hit the main portion of the backhoe, and that would not preclude the backhoe being in the vicinity of tracks 3 or 4.


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## jis (Apr 11, 2016)

According NTSB the backhoe was on track 3. Can we at least stop speculating about things that NTSB has already clarified please?


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 11, 2016)

Was the backhoe clipped, T-Boned, broadsided, etc?


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 11, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Was the backhoe clipped, T-Boned, broadsided, etc?


Hit from the rear, it seems


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## afigg (Apr 19, 2016)

The NTSB has released a preliminary report on the #89 collision: NTSB accident report webpage which has a link to the 2 page PDF report. Gist of the initial report:



> At the time of the accident, roadway workers were performing maintenance on main track 2 at the accident site over a planned 55-hour window, beginning on April 1, 2016, at 10:00 p.m. and extending to 5:00 a.m. on April 4, 2016. The work included ballast cleaning and remediating fouled ballast (mud spots) on main track 2. 2 During the maintenance window, main track 2 was removed from service and intermittent foul time was granted on main tracks 1, 3, and 4 to protect the backhoe as it was used to assist in cutting away the fouled ballast.3 NTSB investigators are confirming what roadway worker protections were in place at the time of the accident.


USA Today has an article on the preliminary report: Report: Track was closed morning of Amtrak crash.


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## jis (Apr 19, 2016)

The title of the article appears to be a bit misleading. Doesn't seem to contain much new information. Track 2 was closed, and so was track 4 possibly. The status of track 3 is what matters and the article basically says they are trying to figure out what its foul status was.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 19, 2016)

jis said:


> The title of the article appears to be a bit misleading. Doesn't seem to contain much new information. Track 2 was closed, and so was track 4 possibly. The status of track 3 is what matters and the article basically says they are trying to figure out what its foul status was.


Especially since most readers probably don't remember which track the train was on (I vaguely thought it was 3), so to them this reads like the train was at fault.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 19, 2016)

Track 2 was closed, track 3 had the train on it that hit the backhoe.

The NTSB report is a simple recap. No real data. The engineer saw something, hit brakes. The MOW forces have been fowling one or all the tracks for limited times, for the backhoe to work.

If this was printed on paper, the report would not be worth the paper it's written on.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 20, 2016)

Is it yet known who was to blame for the accident?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 20, 2016)

Nope, it will be multi-point failure however. Not one person, or one event leading up to this. A chain of events, link together cause this accident.


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 20, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Is it yet known who was to blame for the accident?


No. The NTSB won't issue the official report for at least a year.

jb


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 20, 2016)

John Bobinyec said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > Is it yet known who was to blame for the accident?
> ...


Any kind of reason why just about any accident takes that long to officially report?


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 20, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > CSXfoamer1997 said:
> ...


Because they like to do a thorough job.


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## warrenwarner (Apr 22, 2016)

Any new sightings of the locomotive? I want to know if it wil be repaired or junked.


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## Dutchrailnut (Apr 22, 2016)

any locomotive involved in such accident, gets impounded by NTSB - FRA - and legal dept, till all investigations are over and all legal matter is done, including lawsuits.

anyone doing anything to locomotive including damage assessment would jeopardise legal resolve.


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## jis (Apr 22, 2016)

warrenwarner said:


> Any new sightings of the locomotive? I want to know if it wil be repaired or junked.


Come back and ask that question in late 2017 or in 2018.


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## jebr (Apr 22, 2016)

Stop the bickering back and forth. If there's a problem with a post, simply use the report feature on the board and the moderators will discuss and address as appropriate.


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## leemell (Apr 22, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > CSXfoamer1997 said:
> ...


Reason are that they must get statements from everyone involved, collect all physical evidence and submit this evidence to lab analysis. That analysis can take a long time. (months) Then the whole thing has to be stepped through in time order and that analyzed for conclusions. It is painstaking work requiring engineering, chemical and mechanical expertise in forensics work.


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## pennyk (Apr 22, 2016)

There was a report filed regarding the alleged bullying/sniping/sarcasm by a couple of our members. A few posts have been hidden pending further review by staff. Again, please keep your comments civil and on topic. If you happen to be an "expert" on "all things train," please try to be tolerant of those who do not possess your breadth of knowledge. Maybe you could share your knowledge without extraneous comments. Thanks.


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## Ryan (Apr 22, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > CSXfoamer1997 said:
> ...


I'd recommend reading a handful of them. Once you have, and see the amount of work that goes into them, you'll learn why they take a long time to assemble.


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## Acela150 (Apr 23, 2016)

Ryan said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > John Bobinyec said:
> ...


This is actually a good suggestion.  My Dad used to get them in the mail. They are a very detailed read. But they do take some time to get a full report.


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## keelhauled (Jan 26, 2017)

The Wall Street Journal has an article about NTSB information recently released. For those who don't have a WSJ subscription, the new part is that the night and day foremen gave contradicting accounts to investigators; the night foreman says he asked the day foreman about releasing the foul on the track and subsequently did so, while the day foreman denied any knowledge of a foul having been released.


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## jis (Jan 26, 2017)

Here is the Philly.com article for those that don't delve in Wall Street related publications  :

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Chester-train-crash-files-released-today.html


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 26, 2017)

Interest story, the comment section was a waste of time.

In short failure to follow policy, add a sprinkle of poor equipment (radios).


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## fulham (Jan 26, 2017)

Says the engineer tested positive for weed and opiods. I cannot believe this s*&t is still going on after the accident at Chase Maryland. I have stated this before...Amtrak appears to be a tough place to get hired...yet they still find a way to hire these idiots who abuse drugs. I don't care if week is legal or not, if you are operating a train over the NEC with its high speed and operating complications you better not be a druggie. PERIOD! Whoever hired this guy should also be fired. Too many lives are at stake to take these chances. Hopefully this was an aberation and not and not a current issue amongst NEC Engine personnel.


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## Acela150 (Jan 26, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Interest story, the comment section was a waste of time.
> 
> In short failure to follow policy, add a sprinkle of poor equipment (radios).


The radios they give rail workers these days are cheap trash at best.



fulham said:


> Says the engineer tested positive for weed and opiods. I cannot believe this s*&t is still going on after the accident at Chase Maryland. I have stated this before...Amtrak appears to be a tough place to get hired...yet they still find a way to hire these idiots who abuse drugs. I don't care if week is legal or not, if you are operating a train over the NEC with its high speed and operating complications you better not be a druggie. PERIOD! Whoever hired this guy should also be fired. Too many lives are at stake to take these chances. Hopefully this was an aberation and not and not a current issue amongst NEC Engine personnel.


It's entirely possible that the manager that selected Mr. Hunter has either retired or moved on.

Railroads will fire anyone for Rule G unless noted in the employees file.

The article also states that the opioids were a result of a morphine dose given at the hospital. So there for it's only weed he tested positive for. As they would have been forced to let the morphine go as it was before his drug test


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## me_little_me (Jan 27, 2017)

fulham said:


> Says the engineer tested positive for weed and opiods. I cannot believe this s*&t is still going on after the accident at Chase Maryland. I have stated this before...Amtrak appears to be a tough place to get hired...yet they still find a way to hire these idiots who abuse drugs. I don't care if week is legal or not, if you are operating a train over the NEC with its high speed and operating complications you better not be a druggie. PERIOD! Whoever hired this guy should also be fired. Too many lives are at stake to take these chances. Hopefully this was an aberation and not and not a current issue amongst NEC Engine personnel.


I have not heard what impact his drug use was on the incident. Would he have been unable to stop had he not had those drugs in his system? If so, then it may be a reason to terminate him but it would not be a reason to imply he was the primary or secondary cause of the accident. Sometimes companies find a way to blame the low level guy so as to protect managers or the failure to have or follow procedures.


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## keelhauled (Jan 27, 2017)

me_little_me said:


> I have not heard what impact his drug use was on the incident. Would he have been unable to stop had he not had those drugs in his system? If so, then it may be a reason to terminate him but it would not be a reason to imply he was the primary or secondary cause of the accident. Sometimes companies find a way to blame the low level guy so as to protect managers or the failure to have or follow procedures.


The level was apparently low enough that it was not considered a factor. That said, the engineer is also no longer an Amtrak employee so make of that what you will.


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## Acela150 (Jan 27, 2017)

me_little_me said:


> fulham said:
> 
> 
> > Says the engineer tested positive for weed and opiods. I cannot believe this s*&t is still going on after the accident at Chase Maryland. I have stated this before...Amtrak appears to be a tough place to get hired...yet they still find a way to hire these idiots who abuse drugs. I don't care if week is legal or not, if you are operating a train over the NEC with its high speed and operating complications you better not be a druggie. PERIOD! Whoever hired this guy should also be fired. Too many lives are at stake to take these chances. Hopefully this was an aberation and not and not a current issue amongst NEC Engine personnel.
> ...


It doesn't matter. It's a Rule G violation. Your fired. Period. No matter how much is in your system. Unless it's noted with the proper authority that you're allowed to take say a painkiller and that authority has approved it.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 27, 2017)

According to this article the workmen also tested positive for drugs.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tests-maintenance-workers-killed-train-drugs-45091170?cid=clicksource_4380645_7_hero_headlines_headlines_hed



> Both maintenance workers killed by an Amtrak train near Philadelphia last year were on drugs when the crash happened, test results show, but that doesn't appear to have factored into safety lapses and miscommunications being blamed for their deaths........


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 27, 2017)

Wow it just gets better...


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 27, 2017)

fulham said:


> Whoever hired this guy should also be fired. Too many lives are at stake to take these chances.



Yeah!!! Fire everyone involved with the interview/hiring process!! They should have known that after a certain period of time on the railroad, turning to drugs was imminent!!! In fact, let's go after his parents too!! They should have known as well!!!


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## Dutchrailnut (Jan 28, 2017)

think its time to read this : https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/59500-59999/59509/599674.pdf


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## Thirdrail7 (Nov 14, 2017)

The NTSB Tees off on Amtrak, citing multiple layers of condoned safety lapses


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