# Western Wisconsin - new passenger service?



## Steve Manfred (May 2, 2019)

In the last few months, Union Pacific has been talking with the Western Wisconsin Rail Coalition about bringing back a privately-run passenger rail service to the area, to connect St. Paul, Minnesota with Eau Claire, Wisconsin and several points in between. 

https://www.riverfallsjournal.com/n...s-track-bringing-passenger-train-through-area


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## Anderson (May 2, 2019)

Interesting, fascinating...and rather nebulous.

http://www.westwisconsinrail.org/plans

I have to confess...they don't do themselves a lot of credit with over-promising the Texas Central project (a 45-minute runtime was never in the cards) and there doesn't seem to be any clear discussion of the pricetag. In their favor, however, is that the initial route is short enough (90 minutes end-to-end) that you _might _be able to manage 4x/day with a single equipment set if it is bi-directional, doesn't need a lot of turning work, etc.


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## Eric S (May 2, 2019)

Let's see, they cite the Hoosier State as a public-private success story and claim Virginia Railway Express commuter/regional rail service is profitable. I'm somewhat surprised Union Pacific is even willing to engage with them at all, given their seemingly-tenuous grasp of reality.

I, for one, will not be holding my breath waiting for this service to begin.


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## bretton88 (May 2, 2019)

Eric S said:


> Let's see, they cite the Hoosier State as a public-private success story and claim Virginia Railway Express commuter/regional rail service is profitable. I'm somewhat surprised Union Pacific is even willing to engage with them at all, given their seemingly-tenuous grasp of reality.
> 
> I, for one, will not be holding my breath waiting for this service to begin.


The only reason I give this organization some credibility is they seem to have professionals on staff, such as regional planners from the area and UP seems to be taking them seriously. Given UP's reluctant stance towards passenger trains, I have to think they have shown UP that they have legitimate backing somewhere, along with the necessary insurance (not cheap). If I'm reading the article right, it appears that the coalition is going to be paying UP full market slot fee too.


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## sttom (May 3, 2019)

If this group is going to be paying full price for this, I just have to ask, how bad is the track in the area? If someone else will be paying for repairs and possibly going belly up, why wouldn't they entertain it?


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## cirdan (May 3, 2019)

bretton88 said:


> The only reason I give this organization some credibility is they seem to have professionals on staff, such as regional planners from the area and UP seems to be taking them seriously. Given UP's reluctant stance towards passenger trains, I have to think they have shown UP that they have legitimate backing somewhere, along with the necessary insurance (not cheap). If I'm reading the article right, it appears that the coalition is going to be paying UP full market slot fee too.



Negotiations don't cost much (especially if you send only junior staff), and it comes across as bad PR to refuse to negotiate. And UP is an organization that does care about its image, as for example its investment in its steam program shows.

I won't believe there is more to it until I actually see an agreement that specifies costs.


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## jis (May 3, 2019)

Yup. Just because someone showed up at a meeting does no mean a hill of beans. One has to know what their marching orders are. I have been to plenty of standards meetings, to attend which big bucks were paid up front, but where my marching orders were "make sure nothing comes of this, and do so subtly so that nothing is pinned on us".


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## bretton88 (May 3, 2019)

cirdan said:


> Negotiations don't cost much (especially if you send only junior staff), and it comes across as bad PR to refuse to negotiate. And UP is an organization that does care about its image, as for example its investment in its steam program shows.
> 
> I won't believe there is more to it until I actually see an agreement that specifies costs.


Per the article that won't be known until the summer when the consultant finishes their report. I do think they're dreaming when they think this service will be profitable, especially at full market slot rate. However if this somehow comes to fruition, it could be an interesting new approach to dealing with the freights in setting up new passenger services.


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## cirdan (May 6, 2019)

jis said:


> Yup. Just because someone showed up at a meeting does no mean a hill of beans. One has to know what their marching orders are. I have been to plenty of standards meetings, to attend which big bucks were paid up front, but where my marching orders were "make sure nothing comes of this, and do so subtly so that nothing is pinned on us".



Been there and done that myself too.

But I wouldn't even go as far as to suggest malicious intent from day one. I've also been sent to meetings with the marching orders from above that said "we think these folks are (probably) a bunch of lunatics, but we want you to go in and listen to them respectfully and try to work out what they are about and whether any of them actually has a clue about how things actually work, and whether it is worth proceeding to negotiate with them further". In many cases the guy did indeed turn out to be an unemployed inventor in a wooly jumper with some back of enevelope incomplete sketches who thought he could break the laws of physics if only he could partner with us. Then it was just a matter of telling him that as diplomatically as possible.

If somebody makes an offer that is to UP's benefit and will actually be a net money winner for them, I don' think they will turn it down on principle.

The problem on the Sunset route for example is that Amtrak has gone in and said "we want to run additional trains on one of your busiest and most congested corridors. We don't care if that causes haywire for the rest of your schedule. But of course we will blame you if things go wrong. And we don't want to pay very much for the priveledge". That's not exactly the sort of carrot that makes UP jump. But that does not mean that UP is not going to be open to a fair offer at the right time and in the right place.


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