# Can we make "contemporary dining" better?



## MARC Rider (Oct 19, 2018)

OK, I get it. Classic dining car service may not be financially sustainable under the current political and budget constraints. After reading the trip reports, it does seem like the service itself isn't that bad, especially for a short overnight trip. You can still eat in the diner with fellow pax, and now, no rezzies needed. Plus, it's a nice lounge.

The problem seems to be in the limited selection. Seems like that could be addressed by having tray service, bot boxed meals, modularized to allow some limited choice of sides and desert, just like there's a choice of beverage. Hot entrees could be retort packed sous-vide stuff that can be stored without refrigeration. 4 lunch dinner choices - beef, chicken, fish, vegan. 4 breakfast choices - egg, pancakes, french toast and Continental. Keep dishes simple to avoid extraneous allernigenic ingredients. Ride the suppliers to keep a lid on salt and sugar levels.

Or even better, just serve self-heating MREs, dress the LSA on camo combat fatigues and have everyone call him or her "Sarge."






Any better or more detailed menu ideas?


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## JRR (Oct 19, 2018)

We have no way of knowing whether the Classic Dining is financially sustainable or not.

The question we can’t know is whether the revenue is being properly credited or not.

With respect to coach travel, the revenue is pretty straight forward but the question remains is what revenue is credited for the sleepers?

I know a bunch of you ride in a Roomette by yourself. The cost of the room includes the meals. Note, however, that the cost of the roomette does not increase if you have two in the room.

Thus, it would seem that the revenue which should be credited includes meals for two whether or not there are two in the room or just one and should include all meals whether or not they are actually eaten.

I suspect, but do not know, that revenue is being credited on some other basis which does not actually recognize the proper revenue.

Without seeing the actual audit where the revenue is set out, we will never know.


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## cpotisch (Oct 19, 2018)

JRR said:


> We have no way of knowing whether the Classic Dining is financially sustainable or not.
> 
> The question we can’t know is whether the revenue is being properly credited or not.
> 
> ...


As I said in another thread, I think the best way to fulfill the F&B mandate is to just allocate more revenue from the sleepers to the diners. Sleepers aren't required to turn a profit, so just put the necessary amount into the diner fund and you should be all set.


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## railiner (Oct 20, 2018)

I think that they should separate the cost of the meals from sleeper tickets, and return to the old way, and welcome coach passenger's desiring a full meal to come to the diner. I also think that they could offer a much better selection for all three meals. The LSA could heat them, the same way as snack meals are heated in the lounge cafe, and passenger's would simply take them from the counter to a table, or back to their room themself. For those needing help for that, the sleeper attendant could do that.


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## ehbowen (Oct 20, 2018)

I'm sure that there's some way to put lipstick on that pig and make it prettier.


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## railiner (Oct 20, 2018)

There's really no reason that they couldn't serve the equivalent of first class airline preplated and heated meals with just the LSA, if it was "self-service". If it was popular enough, they might be able to afford one SA to help out. It wouldn't be an elegant dining experience as before, but the food choice and quality could be better than what is offered now.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 20, 2018)

It seems that we've reached a consensus on how to improve food service in the Amtrak Diners while helping to comply with the Congressional Directive on cutting the deficits in Food and Beverage Services @ the same time.

Adopt the Acela FC System ( without the "Free" Adult Beverages) while improving the Quality of the offerings.

No real reason that Coach passengers shouldn't be able to purchase Higher Quality Offerings in the Cafe like what is available on some of the State Funded Trains either.

Win/Win it seems to me!

If Full Service is kept in the Diners on the Two Night LD Trains ( ie Western), as has been said, going back to the old system of Pay as you go would seem to be a No Brainer!

This should be clear to the Airline Crew Flying Amtrak, but doesn't seem to register as they fiddle around with hybrid systems that hardly anyone seems to like,Passengers or Crew.


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## Anderson (Oct 23, 2018)

Well, and in addition to the food being available to purchase "as available", there really should be some ability to reserve something in advance (whether as a specific choice or just "a meal" and you pick from the options) for a fee. Part of the reason I started springing for a roomette BAL/WAS-RVR on the Meteor is that I got sick of feeling like the OBS folks would post an armed guard at the door of the diner if they could get away with it.


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## Anderson (Oct 23, 2018)

MARC Rider said:


> OK, I get it. Classic dining car service may not be financially sustainable under the current political and budget constraints. After reading the trip reports, it does seem like the service itself isn't that bad, especially for a short overnight trip. You can still eat in the diner with fellow pax, and now, no rezzies needed. Plus, it's a nice lounge.
> 
> The problem seems to be in the limited selection. Seems like that could be addressed by having tray service, bot boxed meals, modularized to allow some limited choice of sides and desert, just like there's a choice of beverage. Hot entrees could be retort packed sous-vide stuff that can be stored without refrigeration. 4 lunch dinner choices - beef, chicken, fish, vegan. 4 breakfast choices - egg, pancakes, french toast and Continental. Keep dishes simple to avoid extraneous allernigenic ingredients. Ride the suppliers to keep a lid on salt and sugar levels.
> 
> ...


Well, Charlie's got a picture of me doing this on the Adirondack a few years back (what can I say, a sloppy joe MRE is actually an improvement on the old cafe menus...).


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## neroden (Oct 24, 2018)

If they have boiled eggs, I'm all good. The breakfast choices currently are severely subpar.


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## Anderson (Oct 24, 2018)

(1) "Financially sustainable" is something that can be argued back-and-forth all day long. If anyone is going to make a call on this front, they need parameters to do so.
(2) Any sort of reasonable F&B on some of the LD routes is going to lose money with honest accounting and no extra allocation of charges to F&B. That's really always been the case.
(2b) If you're willing to restructure fares, etc., the "easy answer" is to convert part of the fare on the LD trains into an "extra fare" for enhanced dining car services. In theory, that's the sort of thing that such fares covered back in the 50s (though it was frequently, say, a barber shop onboard). Not that those amenities were gratis as a result, but they were subsidized by that charge.

As to improving the current mode of service, I think you'd be better off with using the ex-diner space to cover both functions and de-staffing the cafe or the downstairs of the SSL and putting both F&B folks in the combined diner/cafe. This isn't far off of what the Cardinal has. Run an Acela-style meal service for the outbound dinner service (which on both the Cap and the LSL is eminently doable), possibly using the same menus but at least using something similar. Possibly supplement with something like a side salad if the food amount is a bit stingy. Breakfast/brunch on the back end is doable, but I would think you could do something relatively simple to improve the options such as having some microwavable breakfast meats available. "Boxed food plus microwavable supplements" doesn't seem to be implausible, and for reference a box of 72 slices of Hormel microwavable bacon on Amazon is about $19 while that much bacon (at current on-board prices) goes for about $54.

If you can at least permit coach pax to purchase/reserve a meal in advance, you could probably do at least _something_ to the cost of a meal through scaling. The current attitude of doing everything short of putting an armed guard at the door of the diner (at least to some perception) can, at the very least, not be helping F&B performance...and neither can management's almost eternal befuddlement that coach passengers might want something more than a microwaved burger for dinner.

Edit: I would note that the latter point, the attitude towards coach pax, has gotten worse over the years as far as I can tell. I recall there being announcements that the diner staff would go through the coaches to solicit reservations some years ago. I haven't tended to hear those as much these days. Maybe it's just that they're only being piped to coach pax, maybe it's my changing ridership patterns...but it sure seems like there's been, at least, less of an attempt to bring them into the diner than there used to. Of course, that might just be perception at work.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Nov 5, 2018)

I think the food and beverage mandate is a moot point. It was from a previous Congress and specifically one congressman from Florida. I honestly don’t think this Congress cares just reallocate the costs to the sleepers.

To take it a step further this Congress might actually be happy if Anderson and company did SOMETHING/ANYTHING positive to stimulate ridership such as  place in service new diners with real dining service and at least pretend to want to run the national network.


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## Pere Flyer (Nov 6, 2018)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> I think the food and beverage mandate is a moot point. It was from a previous Congress and specifically one congressman from Florida. I honestly don’t think this Congress cares just reallocate the costs to the sleepers.
> To take it a step further this Congress might actually be happy if Anderson and company did SOMETHING/ANYTHING positive to stimulate ridership such as  place in service new diners with real dining service and at least pretend to want to run the national network.


Also, keep in mind that in a couple months, we’ll have a new Congress that will likely look different and have new leadership, depending on what voters do next Tuesday.


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## jis (Nov 6, 2018)

Until Congress changes the law, nothing is a moot point, except in people's fantasies. 

New Authorization of Amtrak is coming up giving an opportunity to fix this. RPA is working with Congresspeople to try to fix it.

Remember, discontinuance and downgrades of Dining Service started well before the current Amtrak Administration came into existence. The 2020 deadline written into law is still there.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Nov 6, 2018)

If the costs were just reallocated to the sleepers it would be a moot point, case closed. Amtrak could do that with the stroke of pen. The F/B mandates intent was to cut down on food costs. The mandate as its being carried out by Anderson is a way to discourage ridership with an end game of shutting down the national network. Hence the problem.  If there’s any gray area in the new authorization I fear Anderson will use it just like he’s using the current one. 

Cuts did start under Boardman but looking back the Silver Star experiment actually makes sense in hindsight. The only LD route that more or less has 2 daily frequencies. Make one a bare bones service for a small discount while keeping traditional service on the Meteor. Customers have an option and it’s played out successfully. The CONO needs better heat and serve meals but at least the table service remains. The Pacifc Parlour car had great heat and serve food with table service  so the option is viable. Box lunch and dinners is a joke when a 2 hour Acela ride gets a hot meal. Im preaching to the choir.

No matter what Congress decides I don’t think Anderson has Amtraks or its passengers best interest in mind and that’s the real issue here.


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## AutoTrDvr (Nov 6, 2018)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> If the costs were just reallocated to the sleepers it would be a moot point, case closed. Amtrak could do that with the stroke of pen. The F/B mandates intent was to cut down on food costs. The mandate as its being carried out by Anderson is a way to discourage ridership with an end game of shutting down the national network. Hence the problem.  If there’s any gray area in the new authorization I fear Anderson will use it just like he’s using the current one.
> 
> Cuts did start under Boardman but looking back the Silver Star experiment actually makes sense in hindsight. The only LD route that more or less has 2 daily frequencies. Make one a bare bones service for a small discount while keeping traditional service on the Meteor. Customers have an option and it’s played out successfully. The CONO needs better heat and serve meals but at least the table service remains. The Pacifc Parlour car had great heat and serve food with table service  so the option is viable. Box lunch and dinners is a joke when a 2 hour Acela ride gets a hot meal. Im preaching to the choir.
> 
> No matter what Congress decides I don’t think Anderson has Amtraks or its passengers best interest in mind and that’s the real issue here.


So, eliminating the long distance routes and just having "regionals" is his end-game objective?   Not good... certainly not for train enthusiasts. :unsure:


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## cpotisch (Nov 6, 2018)

AutoTrDvr said:


> So, eliminating the long distance routes and just having "regionals" is his end-game objective?   Not good... certainly not for train enthusiasts. :unsure:


Some people have _speculated_ that this is Anderson's plan. Neither him nor anyone else at Amtrak has said this out loud, so while I agree about *some* of this sentiment, we should take it with a grain of salt.


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## Ryan (Nov 7, 2018)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The mandate as its being carried out by Anderson is a way to discourage﻿﻿﻿﻿ ridership with an end game of shutting down the national networ﻿k. Hen﻿ce﻿ the problem.  If there’s any gray area in the new authorization I fea﻿﻿r Anderson will use it just like he’s using the current one. ﻿﻿


Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.


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## ehbowen (Nov 7, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.


Sustained; one should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.


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## neroden (Nov 7, 2018)

I'll be really simplistic here.  Can we make it better?  Yes.  Get us some hard-boiled eggs.  There, it's better.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Nov 7, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> Sustained; one should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.


I would usually agree. In this case I think there’s both incompetence and malice involved. Anderson has lost any benefit of the doubt by his actions as a whole.

We need to keep our eyes on the ball so the rug doesn’t get pulled out from under us. I truly think there’s a sinester agenda here. Time will tell.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Nov 7, 2018)

neroden said:


> I'll be really simplistic here.  Can we make it better?  Yes.  Get us some hard-boiled eggs.  There, it's better.


Or for the broader population an egg Mc muffin type sandwich. McDonald’s and Panera have 16 year olds pumping them out in 3 minutes. Doesn’t get simpler then that. Ham/Egg sandwich,  fresh fruit, coffee in a V2 diner for breakfast


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## neroden (Nov 7, 2018)

The problem with EggMcMuffins is the sheer number of additives which people may be allergic to.  Straight-up eggs are safer for more people.


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## jis (Nov 7, 2018)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> I would usually agree. In this case I think there’s both incompetence and malice involved. Anderson has lost any benefit of the doubt by his actions as a whole.
> 
> We need to keep our eyes on the ball so the rug doesn’t get pulled out from under us. I truly think there’s a sinester agenda here. Time will tell.


While I agree with the caution about keeping our eyes on the ball, I do not consider spreading random conspiracy theories based on little understanding of what is actually going on, as an act that is consistent with that goal.


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## ehbowen (Nov 7, 2018)

neroden said:


> The problem with EggMcMuffins is the sheer number of additives which people may be allergic to.  Straight-up eggs are safer for more people.


While there may be (probably are) additives in the Canadian bacon and American cheese (but, to my knowledge, no more than you would find in any comparable product on the supermarket shelf), the majority of the Egg McMuffin is fresh shell eggs and English muffins. Or at least it was when I was making them in 1979. There's no reason it *has* to be unhealthy.

Edit To Add: Again, I'm sure that production processes have been "improved" in the last 40 years. But in 1979, the production process was simple and straightforward:


Break your English muffins in half and place them in the toaster.

Brush melted butter on the grill and drop your holder with 6 or 12 stainless steel rings.

Crack fresh eggs into the rings of the holder and pop the yolks.

Lay the slices of Canadian bacon on the grill next to the eggs.

Remove the holder, flip the eggs (2 at a time), and lay a slice of American cheese atop each to melt.

Take your toasted muffins, pull the Canadian bacon from the grill and lay it down, then pull the eggs and cheese and lay it atop the bacon.

Cover with the top half of the toasted muffins, wrap and serve.

It doesn't have to get any more complicated than that...and it shouldn't.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Nov 7, 2018)

I think the skewed facts and outright lies about the SWC speaks volumes of Anderson’s motives.

As far as the egg Mc muffin type sandwich. As long as the egg is cracked on board and not a liquid egg product  I’d be good. English muffin, slice of cheese and a fresh egg, ham optional.


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## jis (Nov 7, 2018)

Although, none of the "lies" used by the Anderson regime were new. They were all picked up from existing Amtrak documentation. They have been part of the Amtrak narrative about the LD segment for quite a while now.

Indeed precisely those were used in the course of writing PRIIA 2008, separating out the three accounts into three separate sections. They appear over and voer again in the Amtrak five year plans that drive the Authorizations. The common factor in all this was Stephen Gardner, who according to some, was placed in Amtrak by Congress and the Board to help write PRIIA. Boardman pretty much admitted that Gardner went off working on PRIIA relatively unsupervised. And guess who was leading the charge on the SWC affair until he was brought to heel by Congress.

I view Anderson as mostly an abrasive and admittedly wilful pawn in a bigger game involving the likes of Gardner and Coscia and presently Chao, each with their own agenda. Anderson came from outside the industry, and inevitably he has to depend on insiders - both those that report to him and those that he reports to, that's the way things work in the executive suite, always. My conjecture is that removing Anderson will have minimal impact on the course being taken by the Board and management of Amtrak. There are others that are the true influences.

The way to fix the problem is to start with writing a better balanced Authorization Bill that this Congress will get to write removing all the Mica and a few earlier nonsense from the narrative. No matter how some may fantasize no CEO in his right mind will ignore a law, unless s/he has the very broad support of the political establishment, a sort of support that Amtrak has never had, due to the political machinations that created it.


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## cpotisch (Nov 7, 2018)

jis said:


> Although, none of the "lies" used by the Anderson regime were new. They were all picked up from existing Amtrak documentation. They have been part of the Amtrak narrative about the LD segment for quite a while now.
> 
> Indeed precisely those were used in the course of writing PRIIA 2008, separating out the three accounts into three separate sections. They appear over and voer again in the Amtrak five year plans that drive the Authorizations. The common factor in all this was Stephen Gardner, who according to some, was placed in Amtrak by Congress and the Board to help write PRIIA. Boardman pretty much admitted that Gardner went off working on PRIIA relatively unsupervised. And guess who was leading the charge on the SWC affair until he was brought to heel by Congress.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I think that while Anderson has done some questionable stuff, it's almost all based on infrastructure and mandates that were already there.


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## tonijustine (Nov 8, 2018)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> I think the food and beverage mandate is a moot point. It was from a previous Congress and specifically one congressman from Florida. I honestly don’t think this Congress cares just reallocate the costs to the sleepers.To take it a step further this Congress might actually be happy if Anderson and company did SOMETHING/ANYTHING positive to stimulate ridership such as  place in service new diners with real dining service and at least pretend to want to run the national network.


A law passed by Congress isn’t moot until another law, also passed by Congress, makes it so. Changes in administration or Congress people don’t make laws moot.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Nov 9, 2018)

I stand by my point. All Anderson has to do is reallocate costs to sleepers/ premium customers if he wanted. No one would care and the issue would be “legally” mitigated. 

The point I  left out earlier about skewed facts and lies with the SWC debacle,  I will concede the gist of the report pre dates Anderson (written by Gardner). But how can we condon Anderson and Co getting in a shouting pissy fit with members of Congress and local professional groups when they were just trying to show the opposing view. Ten years ago a civil servant like Anderson would have been shown the door for such unprofessional behavior.  Yes he’s abrasive but that outburst alone shows evidence of an agenda.


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## jis (Nov 9, 2018)

Redacted


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## Amtrakfflyer (Nov 9, 2018)

jis said:


> You can stand by your point until you are blue in your face. That is not going to happen LOL!


Obviously it won’t happen because  Anderson doesn’t want it to.  It could be fixed today by reallocating the costs. At the same time cost cutting and efficiencies SHOULD continue to find a system that’s a happy medium. Break even is a pipe dream that will never happen unless they just run a snack car.


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## jis (Nov 9, 2018)

That is why the law needs to be changed to remove the break even requirement. I think we are chasing our tails trying to placate those that foisted this ridiculous law on us instead of focusing on fixing the core problem, i.e. change the law. The upcoming re-authorization of Amtrak presents us with such an opportunity. If a sufficient coalition canbe found the specific food service related law can even be rescinded through an Appropriation Bill. It is not like this has not been done before. There was a time when it was written into the law that Amtrak shall not lose any money by date xyz, leading to Warrington's ridiculous moves. When it came time, the law was quickly buried. Of course, not having a overly pliant new CEO helped too, and arguably that CEO did get fired eventually too.

Why are some assuming that we have to assume that the law cannot be changed and are coming up with innovative and often unworkable subterfuge of the law instead of honestly working on fixing the problem? That is what baffles me more than anything else.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Nov 9, 2018)

Touché on that. The end result of our discussion is the same. How much damage will be done in the mean time though? The bigger elephant in the room is this managements apparent lack of desire to run the national network. 

Besides train offs and a selling/canceling of the V2’s the next management team should  be able to fix anything stupid Anderson does.


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## jis (Nov 9, 2018)

It is quite unlikely that there will be any train offs or selling V2s.

Since this rumor keeps coming up let us at least be fully informed about it...

The source of the rumor as far as we can tell is Evan Stair. The complete rumor goes as follows:

"Schumer and Coscia have put together a plan to zero out the national network budget and transfer all of that money to the NEC to fund Gateway and other projects. This will of course mean discontinuance of the Long Distance Network. All of the equipment used on the LD network is superannuated, except the Viewliners. Therefore they are looking at selling the Viewliner to VIA Rail. The rest can be safely scrapped."

Aside from the fact that Schumer does not have the votes and Coscia does not have the authority to make any of this happen, there are so many obstacles to this that it seems quite an unlikely thing beyond the fertile imagination of a few folks in the middle of the country. Even if this had an iota of truth in it, it would take an act of Congress to make such shift of funding from one account to another in the middle of a fiscal year, and given the state of appropriations, any such drastically different appropriation cannot happen before the 2020 FY.

Perhaps a separate thread should be created to discuss the viability of this overall rumor. Suffice it to say that knowing the source and the nature of the full story behind the rumor, for now at least I do not take anyone who states this rumor as a foregone conclusion or a fact, too seriously.

RPA has asked Amtrak management about this and have been told that none of this is in the cards. They have stated in Congressional testimony that it is upto Congress to specify in the re-authorization what direction Amtrak should take relative to all its BUs for the next five years, and Amtrak will do as Congress dictates. So the ball is squarely in the Congress' court. That is why I keep harping - pay attention to the upcoming re-authorization debate.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Nov 9, 2018)

This is a direct quote from the RPA newsletter in April 2017 (sorry, I don't know how to remove the underlining or color):

"U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) is pushing back against the Trump Administration’s efforts to slash budgets for critical passenger rail infrastructure, including Amtrak’s long-distance trains."

I doubt that he has done a 180-degree turn in a year and a half.

Having no clue who Evan Stair is, I looked him up--he's a local passenger rail guy out in Oklahoma? Where on earth did he get such a ridiculous idea?

Someone can obviously be in favor of both the Gateway project and a national long-distance train network at the same time, and I always considered Schumer a fairly decent proponent of passenger rail in general.


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## neroden (Nov 9, 2018)

*Cough* McDonald's has changed their recipes since 1979.


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## neroden (Nov 9, 2018)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> I think the skewed facts and outright lies about the SWC speaks volumes of Anderson’s motives.
> 
> As far as the egg Mc muffin type sandwich. As long as the egg is cracked on board and not a liquid egg product  I’d be good. English muffin, slice of cheese and a fresh egg, ham optional.


Cheese optional!  My girlfriend is allergic to dairy products, remember?


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## neroden (Nov 9, 2018)

jis said:


> I view Anderson as mostly an abrasive and admittedly wilful pawn in a bigger game involving the likes of Gardner and Coscia and presently Chao, each with their own agenda. Anderson came from outside the industry, and inevitably he has to depend on insiders - both those that report to him and those that he reports to, that's the way things work in the executive suite, always. My conjecture is that removing Anderson will have minimal impact on the course being taken by the Board and management of Amtrak. There are others that are the true influences.


If you're actually right, the way to fix the problem is to get Anderson to *seriously* read the RPA White Paper on Amtrak's phony accounting, and then point out to him that Stephen Gardner has been handing him this phony accounting.  Wouldn't take long for Anderson to fire Gardner. *Nobody* likes being given phony information to work from; working from the phony information makes Anderson look like a fool, and the guy who gave him that information...


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## jis (Nov 9, 2018)

neroden said:


> If you're actually right, the way to fix the problem is to get Anderson to *seriously* read the RPA White Paper on Amtrak's phony accounting, and then point out to him that Stephen Gardner has been handing him this phony accounting.  Wouldn't take long for Anderson to fire Gardner. *Nobody* likes being given phony information to work from; working from the phony information makes Anderson look like a fool, and the guy who gave him that information...


Depends on how wilful a pawn he is in which game. It does not follow at all that his primary interest is what we would like it to be. Just IMHO of course. I am remarkably cynical when it comes to what actually motivates people to do stuff.


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## ehbowen (Nov 9, 2018)

neroden said:


> *Cough* McDonald's has changed their recipes since 1979.


Are you sure? Egg McMuffin at least doesn't look like it's changed to me. Other items, maybe. But even if so, my point is that it doesn't HAVE to be unhealthy.



neroden said:


> Cheese optional!  My girlfriend is allergic to dairy products, remember?


And if we had real cooks preparing real food in real kitchens on board, adjustments like this ought to pose no real problems.


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## neroden (Nov 11, 2018)

I would actually be pleased if Anderson's desire were actually to maximize the finances of Amtrak; if it were, he would need accurate accounting, which he isn't getting.  Coming from the private sector, you'd expect him to care about such things, but you never know -- maybe he wants to waste Congressional money, in which case he would benefit from inaccurate accounting.

I like to think that he would appreciate accurate accounting.


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## ehbowen (Nov 11, 2018)

Figures don't lie, but liars sure know how to figure. Like you, I hope that Mr. Anderson and those at Amtrak's throttle stand fall into the former category. Unfortunately, it's more and more beginning to seem that this is not the case.


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## neroden (Nov 15, 2018)

The accounts at Amtrak are such an ungodly mess that I'm quite sure Mr. Anderson doesn't have access to real accounts.  It's one thing to keep two sets of books; it's another for your *only* set of books to be garbage.  This feels a lot like the story of the Milwaukee Road management before its bankruptcy.


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## cocojacoby (Dec 9, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> Break your English muffins in half and place them in the toaster.
> 
> Brush melted butter on the grill and drop your holder with 6 or 12 stainless steel rings.
> 
> ...


Actually it can get even easier than that.  Toast an English muffin and butter it.  Break an egg into a bowl and stir it to break up the yolk.  Add a slice of Canadian Bacon and a slice of cheese.  Cover the bowl and microwave for about a minute or two.  That's it.  You don't need a grill.  Just put it all together.  I do this almost every morning.


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## jis (Dec 10, 2018)

neroden said:


> The accounts at Amtrak are such an ungodly mess that I'm quite sure Mr. Anderson doesn't have access to real accounts.  It's one thing to keep two sets of books; it's another for your *only* set of books to be garbage.  This feels a lot like the story of the Milwaukee Road management before its bankruptcy.


According to the article in the latest Trains Mag, all this comes straight from the brains at Volpe Center, duly anointed by the FRA, neither of which can be blamed for knowing much about accounting of anything. The results, while unfortunate, are not unexpected, specially when placed in the hands of a very risk averse Amtrak management and disinterested Congress, whose only concern is to make these absurd books look good, instead of trashing them and starting anew.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 10, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> Are you sure? Egg McMuffin at least doesn't look like it's changed to me. Other items, maybe.


According to what I've read and heard very little food is actually "made" in a McDonald's kitchen anymore.  For instance the hotcakes, McGriddles, sausage patties, and burrito eggs are factory cooked, frozen, and reheated.  The "yellow part" of many breakfast items has 16 ingredients, only one of which is real egg.  In many ways McDonald's is a master of culinary deception.  That being said, it doesn't seem to bother most people and might actually be an improvement over Amtrak's embarrassingly limited breakfast experience.


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## ehbowen (Dec 10, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> According to what I've read and heard very little food is actually "made" in a McDonald's kitchen anymore.  For instance the hotcakes, McGriddles, sausage patties, and burrito eggs are factory cooked, frozen, and reheated.  The "yellow part" of many breakfast items has 16 ingredients, only one of which is real egg.  In many ways McDonald's is a master of culinary deception.  That being said, it doesn't seem to bother most people and might actually be an improvement over Amtrak's embarrassingly limited breakfast experience.


I'm not saying it isn't that way *now*...after all, my experience was 39 years ago...but it wasn't that way back then, which means it doesn't HAVE to be that way. That's all I'm saying.


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## VTTrain (Dec 10, 2018)

I would love to see Amtrak turn "Contemporary Dining" into something like the meal service with JetBlue Mint.  

With JetBlue's Mint service, you get your choice of three "tasting" sized dishes out of six different choices.  The three smaller dishes equal one meal.  Two out of the six dishes are cold.  You also get a roll and a drink of your choice.  Dinner is followed by a dessert - usually gourmet ice cream.

Here is a sample menu: https://www.jetblue.com/flying-on-jetblue/mint/menu/2018-11/MintMenu_Nov18_LD_E_LAX_V01.pdf

Here is why I like this idea: (1) You can mix and match the selections so not every meal will feel the same; (2) This is extremely easy to stock and serve.  You just need a refrigerator and a warming oven; (3) It feels much more gourmet than the current Contemporary Dining options; (4) It is a good compromise between a genuine cooked meal and something much more cost efficient.

I have been very pleased with JetBlue's product.

Here is an example:


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## looshi (Dec 11, 2018)

neroden said:


> If you're actually right, the way to fix the problem is to get Anderson to *seriously* read the RPA White Paper on Amtrak's phony accounting, and then point out to him that Stephen Gardner has been handing him this phony accounting.  Wouldn't take long for Anderson to fire Gardner. *Nobody* likes being given phony information to work from; working from the phony information makes Anderson look like a fool, and the guy who gave him that information...


Gardner is much more likely to become the next Amtrak CEO than be fired. He has been taking on increased responsibility on the executive team of late.


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## neroden (Dec 12, 2018)

Hopefully Gardner won't turn out to be another Thomas Downs.  If he is, we have to destroy his career as quickly as possible.


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## cocojacoby (Dec 12, 2018)

VTTrain said:


> I would love to see Amtrak turn "Contemporary Dining" into something like the meal service with JetBlue Mint.
> 
> With JetBlue's Mint service, you get your choice of three "tasting" sized dishes out of six different choices.  The three smaller dishes equal one meal.  Two out of the six dishes are cold.  You also get a roll and a drink of your choice.  Dinner is followed by a dessert - usually gourmet ice cream.
> 
> ...


Except for that green thing on the right which looks like something my dog regurgitated, this seems like a good concept.


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## cpotisch (Dec 12, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> Except for that green thing on the right which looks like something my dog regurgitated, this seems like a good concept.


Oh. My. God. Absolutely spot on.  :giggle:


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## VTTrain (Dec 12, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> Except for that green thing on the right which looks like something my dog regurgitated, this seems like a good concept.


The beauty of this concept is that you don’t have to pick that.  You get six choices to choose from.  You can pick multiples of the same choice if you want.  

It’s very flexible.


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## cpotisch (Dec 12, 2018)

VTTrain said:


> The beauty of this concept is that you don’t have to pick that.  You get six choices to choose from.  You can pick multiples of the same choice if you want.
> 
> It’s very flexible.


What actually was it? Because I have never seen a single edible item in my life that looks even remotely like that.


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## VTTrain (Dec 12, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> What actually was it? Because I have never seen a single edible item in my life that looks even remotely like that.


It wasn’t my photo.  I grabbed it from Google.  I’ve enjoyed everything I’ve tried , fortunately.


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## ehbowen (Dec 12, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> What actually was it? Because I have never seen a single edible item in my life that looks even remotely like that.




```
I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.

A TRAIN! A TRAIN! A TRAIN! A TRAIN!
COULD YOU, WOULD YOU ON A TRAIN?

NOT ON TRAIN! NOT IN A TREE!
NOT IN A CAR! SAM! LET ME BE!
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT, IN A BOX.
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT, WITH A FOX.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM IN A HOUSE.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM HERE OR THERE.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM ANYWHERE.
I DO NOT EAT GREEM EGGS AND HAM.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
```


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## JRR (Dec 12, 2018)

Actually, there is a restaurant in Boca that serves a brunch on Sunday that serves “Green Eggs and Ham” and I like it!


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 12, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> What actually was it? Because I have never seen a single edible item in my life that looks even remotely like that.


I've seen that sort of texture and consistency before, but mainly in the context of obscure delicacies for the adventurous and multi-course meals for the upper class.  That being said, I often feel that producers of high volume "luxury" meals are prone to overreach with their cuisine choices in an effort to make their food seem fancier or more sophisticated than it really is.  Better to focus on a simpler dish you can "knock out of the park" rather than aim so high that you're virtually guaranteed to disappoint anyone who knows how it's supposed to look and taste.



JRR said:


> Actually, there is a restaurant in Boca that serves a brunch on Sunday that serves “Green Eggs and Ham” and I like it!


So far as I am aware "green eggs" is merely a term for what happens naturally whenever you fry eggs after bacon/ham.


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## bretton88 (Dec 12, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> What actually was it? Because I have never seen a single edible item in my life that looks even remotely like that.


Looks like an avocado spread, which would be about that color.


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## cpotisch (Dec 12, 2018)

bretton88 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > What actually was it? Because I have never seen a single edible item in my life that looks even remotely like that.
> ...


Looks more pesto-esque to me. Any half decent avocado is going to be of a much lighter color than that.


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## JRR (Dec 12, 2018)

Devil said:


> So far as I am aware "green eggs" is merely a term for what happens naturally whenever you fry eggs after bacon/ham.


The dish has pulled pork, poached eggs and chimichurri sauce on an English muffin.


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## cocojacoby (Dec 13, 2018)

JRR said:


> The dish has pulled pork, poached eggs and chimichurri sauce on an English muffin.


And you can just heat up poached eggs?  That seems rather unappetizing.  I'm guessing it just about tastes like it looks!


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## cpotisch (Dec 13, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> And you can just heat up poached eggs?  That seems rather unappetizing.  I'm guessing it just about tastes like it looks!


You do know that JRR isn't talking about the food in that photo, right? The photo was posted by a different member. He's talking about a dish they serve at a restaurant in Boca, not JetBlue.


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## west point (Dec 13, 2018)

Our group feels that Amtrak should keep diners open 24 hours That would probably increase revenue enough to pay for the extra DC personnel   ?  The biggest [problem we see is the need to restock at intermediate stations.


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## Anthony V (Dec 13, 2018)

neroden said:


> Hopefully Gardner won't turn out to be another Thomas Downs.  If he is, we have to destroy his career as quickly as possible.


Who is/was worse? Downs or Anderson/Gardner?


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 13, 2018)

JRR said:


> The dish has pulled pork, poached eggs and chimichurri sauce on an English muffin.


Sounds interesting.  Not sure I would like it but I would probably try it.  The first time I had conventional "green eggs" cooked in pork grease was at a summer camp in Iowa.  I was a little confused by the odd color but the taste was excellent.


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## jebr (Dec 13, 2018)

west point said:


> Our group feels that Amtrak should keep diners open 24 hours That would probably increase revenue enough to pay for the extra DC personnel   ?  The biggest [problem we see is the need to restock at intermediate stations.


I doubt there's near enough business to justify staffing the diner 24/7; the extra crew members (you'd likely need a full second crew, after all) would almost certainly bring in less revenue than what they cost to employ.

It might make sense to add a second person in the cafe car to cover breaks and the overnight hours. That at least has a chance of being net profitable, and would be a lot more sensible than keeping the diner open 24/7.


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## JRR (Dec 13, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> You do know that JRR isn't talking about the food in that photo, right? The photo was posted by a different member. He's talking about a dish they serve at a restaurant in Boca, not JetBlue.


Correct!


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## west point (Dec 14, 2018)

Amtrak had a test for a while on the Sunset for 24 hour dinning car service.  Do not remember details but it was reported to be revenue positive !  That is revenue covered extra costs.


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## cocojacoby (Dec 14, 2018)

west point said:


> Amtrak had a test for a while on the Sunset for 24 hour dinning car service.  Do not remember details but it was reported to be revenue positive !  That is revenue covered extra costs.


Yes, I posted that article.  I think that if it did better than broke even on the Sunset it would do very very well on the Lake Shore Limited especially if something like a simplified Jet Blue concept is offered.  That train has people getting off and on all night long at decent population centers.


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## jis (Dec 14, 2018)

Was that article the Andrew Selden claim? Or was it some other article from a different independent source?


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## neroden (Dec 16, 2018)

Anthony V said:


> Who is/was worse? Downs or Anderson/Gardner?


Downs was certainly the most incompetent Amtrak CEO ever, and probably caused more damage than any other Amtrak CEO.  Frankly, Downs turned everything he touched to trash. 

Before Amtrak, he mismanaged the Washington Union Station restoration project causing massive cost overruns and requiring a bailout and a redesign.

Before that, he mismanaged New Jersey Transit. 

After Amtrak, he got on the board of Washington Metro and proceeded to help sleepwalk it into signal failures and financial disaster.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/mutual-disdain-split-metro-board-youve-got-your-head-in-the-sand/2016/01/28/3ce852fa-bfcd-11e5-9443-7074c3645405_story.html?utm_term=.bf1f5845915b

At Amtrak, he first concealed losses until Amtrak needed an emergency infusion of cash from the DOT (which was delivered by one of the lower-down executives), infuriating DOT and Congress because he hadn't talked to them earlier.  Then he eliminated the Heritage cars but didn't order enough Viewliners to replace them.  He then implemented the idiotic Mercer consulting "three a week everywhere" plan at Amtrak, apparently actually believing that it made sense. This blew the biggest hole ever in Amtrak's budget.  Amtrak ran out of cash a second time and needed another emergency infusion from the government, includingh the Penn Station mortgage.

Remember, this was during the early 1990s, which were a booming time for rail ridership.  The fundamentals were good; riders were banging on their door.  Downs managed to screw up everything, and I mean everything.  He's frighteningly incompetent.

You could argue that Roger Lewis's very early testimony to Congress where he said he didn't know what they'd do with a billion dollars and didn't want it was the biggest single damaging move Amtrak ever made.  But the rest of his term was much better than Downs.

Some other people's ratings, with politically incorrect nicknames:

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4110939

----

The jury is still out on Mr. Anderson.  Lunatic, idiotic proposals like replacing the SW Chief with a bus fall in the "Thomas Downs" level of stupidity. On the other hand, the upgrade to the cafe car menu + removal of dining cars is far more sensible than anything Downs ever did.  He's probably going to be a bad Amtrak President, but you have to try really hard to be as bad as Mr. Downs was.


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## neroden (Dec 16, 2018)

jebr said:


> I doubt there's near enough business to justify staffing the diner 24/7; the extra crew members (you'd likely need a full second crew, after all) would almost certainly bring in less revenue than what they cost to employ.
> 
> It might make sense to add a second person in the cafe car to cover breaks and the overnight hours. That at least has a chance of being net profitable, and would be a lot more sensible than keeping the diner open 24/7.


On the LSL, it would make sense to run the dining car as a second cafe and serve both legs (Alb-Bos and Alb-Nyp) as well as having one or the other open during all of 24 hours.


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## cocojacoby (Dec 16, 2018)

jis said:


> Was that article the Andrew Selden claim? Or was it some other article from a different independent source?


This is it: https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/getting-there-is-half-the-fun/?RAchannel=home


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## railiner (Dec 16, 2018)

neroden said:


> On the LSL, it would make sense to run the dining car as a second cafe and serve both legs (Alb-Bos and Alb-Nyp) as well as having one or the other open during all of 24 hours.


On the LSL, having a 24 hour cafe would be an excellent idea, especially considering the major stops during the late night hours, where there is a flurry of activity getting on and off...


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## neroden (Dec 20, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> This is it: https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/getting-there-is-half-the-fun/?RAchannel=home


Bruce Richardson is certainly correct; I will say that this model only works if you have a lot of people on the train.  It should probably be adopted immediately on the Silver Meteor, which has a lot of people  year-round and is not very seasonal.


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## me_little_me (Jan 1, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> Actually it can get even easier than that.  Toast an English muffin and butter it.  Break an egg into a bowl and stir it to break up the yolk.  Add a slice of Canadian Bacon and a slice of cheese.  Cover the bowl and microwave for about a minute or two.  That's it.  You don't need a grill.  Just put it all together.  I do this almost every morning.


English Muffin? Are you crazy? FOREIGN socialist muffins instead of good ole Merican bagels?

Then you want to butter it? Butter has bad fats. Butter has cow-based fats. Butter has cow diseases and the wrong kind of fat.

Canadian bacon? Another foreign meat. What about good ole nitrite and salt fueled MERICAN bacon?

What kind of cheese? Anti-American French cheeses? Fake Italian ones? Mexican white cheese? Corporate American cheese-like food? Are you one of those no-GMO weirdos? Corporate bribe payer?

There better be gits with that meal!

And only plant-based products or at least an alternative for us Vegans.

And for those of us who want Egg-Beaters? (That like still legal to beat them?) We have to have our choice since we can't go next door to Wendy's.


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