# Definition of High Speed



## Hanno (Jan 28, 2010)

Perhaps it has been covered somewhere but I was wondering how fast would a train have to go to be considered high speed. Especially as it relates to the money being awarded as part of the $8 billion stimulus.


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## wrjensen (Jan 28, 2010)

There is no real number. There are a few point the seem to be recurring 79 mph, 110 mph, 150/168 and 200+. In the case of the money all these apply.

CA- 220 mph

FL 168 mph

CHI-STL 110 mph


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## jis (Jan 28, 2010)

wrjensen said:


> There is no real number. There are a few point the seem to be recurring 79 mph, 110 mph, 150/168 and 200+. In the case of the money all these apply.
> CA- 220 mph
> 
> FL 168 mph
> ...


I have actually been wondering if the 168 is originally a typo that someone forgot correct and now it is getting perpetuated. I think this may be the case because the news release which also mentions future plans for Orlando - Miami mentions that it will be 186mph, which is the same as 2nd gen TGV and is essentially 300kph.

But then again, I don't quite remember the break points but 168mph may be the break point between two FRA railroad track classes.

The 79mph and 110mph have to do with FRA railroad track classes/signaling requirement boundaries etc.


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## wrjensen (Jan 28, 2010)

jis said:


> wrjensen said:
> 
> 
> > There is no real number. There are a few point the seem to be recurring 79 mph, 110 mph, 150/168 and 200+. In the case of the money all these apply.
> ...


Not sure where the 168 cam from either. FRA class breakdown

Class 6 track............................ 110 m.p.h.

Class 7 track............................ 125 m.p.h.

Class 8 track............................ 160 m.p.h.

Class 9 track............................ 200 m.p.h.


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## Guest_bretton88_* (Jan 28, 2010)

No, the 168mph number is from the initial TB-Orlando segment. Phase 2 to miami will be able to go 186mph. So it's not a typo, phase one of the Florida high speed rail will just be slower.


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## saxman (Jan 28, 2010)

Seems like there isn't a real definition as far as the stimulus package goes. The 3C corridor is only going to be 79 mph right now, while Florida is over 200.

Seems like there's lots of pissed off people about some of the lower speed corridors though. They expect everything to be 200+.


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## jis (Jan 28, 2010)

Guest_bretton88_* said:


> No, the 168mph number is from the initial TB-Orlando segment. Phase 2 to miami will be able to go 186mph. So it's not a typo, phase one of the Florida high speed rail will just be slower.


I am still left wondering why. Considering that the technology used will all be imported from either Japan or Europe, what difference will it make in terms of price for having it run 18mph slower, given that current technology is pretty standard for 186mph all over the world. Just curious.


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## dart330 (Jan 28, 2010)

It also uses more electricity to go faster, so maybe the cost of operating at the higher speed is not worth it for such a short distance?

At a presentation of the DesertXpress they are planning from Vegas to CA, they said they will only run at 150mph because the electricity usage after that speed just becomes to expensive for their business model.


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## jis (Jan 28, 2010)

dart330 said:


> It also uses more electricity to go faster, so maybe the cost of operating at the higher speed is not worth it for such a short distance?
> At a presentation of the DesertXpress they are planning from Vegas to CA, they said they will only run at 150mph because the electricity usage after that speed just becomes to expensive for their business model.


That makes sense. Energy efficient end to end running time meeting business goals is more important the fastest speed achieved. I just hope they do not buy trainsets that are incapable of running at the higher speed of the expanded system.


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## GG-1 (Jan 28, 2010)

jis said:


> dart330 said:
> 
> 
> > It also uses more electricity to go faster, so maybe the cost of operating at the higher speed is not worth it for such a short distance?
> ...


Aloha

My recollection of the DesertXpress is that it will only run to Victorville. That's a fast way to no where. How many People live there? And how many from LA will drive 2.5 hours to Victorville and Switch to the train. That's just under half way there.

I beleive any rail service that doesn't go into LA or Orange County as doomed. Either resurect the desert Wind and improve the tracks still in place for higher speed between LA and LV. or use the Potential route between Anaheim for realy high speed trains as also proposed


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## jis (Jan 28, 2010)

GG-1 said:


> My recollection of the DesertXpress is that it will only run to Victorville. That's a fast way to no where. How many People live there? And how many from LA will drive 2.5 hours to Victorville and Switch to the train. That's just under half way there.
> I beleive any rail service that doesn't go into LA or Orange County as doomed. Either resurect the desert Wind and improve the tracks still in place for higher speed between LA and LV. or use the Potential route between Anaheim for realy high speed trains as also proposed


I wasn't saying anything about whether Desert Express as a whole makes sense. I was commenting that setting a max speed lower to meet a specific business goal makes sense.


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## George Harris (Jan 28, 2010)

wrjensen said:


> Not sure where the 168 came from either. FRA class breakdownClass 6 track............................ 110 m.p.h.
> 
> Class 7 track............................ 125 m.p.h.
> 
> ...


168 mph = 270 km/h, which is the magic number for some systems

Despite Class 8 being at 160 mph, there is a footnote on the 160 for class 8 which says:



> Operating speeds in excess of 150 m.p.h. are authorized by this part only in conjunction with a rule of particular applicability addressing other safety issues presented by the system.


Therefore, anything with a speed above 150 mph requires a special dispensation from the FRA.


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## leemell (Jan 28, 2010)

GG-1 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > dart330 said:
> ...


To correct a couple of things, first, I live in the San Fernando Valley (2 million people) and it takes about an hour to get to Victorville and less for anybody in the San Gabriel Valley (another 2 million people) and the Riverside/Palm Springs area (a lot more but not 2 million). Second, Desertxpress has held talks and reached agreement with CA HSR and Metrolink for a spur connection when that is built.


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## George Harris (Jan 28, 2010)

leemell said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Given that the current "Crayon on a map" line for the Calif HSR to San Diego goes west to roughly San Bernandino before turning south (probably due to the objections of the NIIMBY's along the coast) a connection of the Las Vegan line in thiis area would seem fairly reasonable, but for:

LA to San Diego is not in the initial phase, and

The LV line will still have to get across Cajon on its own to get to Victorville.

Given that there is a lot of nothing between Victorville and Los Vegas, the lower speed makes no sense in any area other tha a small reduction in energy consumption, unless they are intending to avoid the FRA's "rule of particular Applicibility" that comes into play if you exceed 150 mph, which sounds suspiciously like an attempt to fly under the radar.


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## leemell (Jan 28, 2010)

George Harris said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> > GG-1 said:
> ...


What I neglected to say was the spur is to Palmdale.


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## George Harris (Jan 29, 2010)

leemell said:


> What I neglected to say was the spur is to Palmdale.


Ah ha!

That leaves the major mountain issues to the HSR.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 30, 2010)

jis said:


> That makes sense. Energy efficient end to end running time meeting business goals is more important the fastest speed achieved. I just hope they do not buy trainsets that are incapable of running at the higher speed of the expanded system.


I'm much more concerned with the track being capable of handling faster speeds later than the speeds of the current trainsets. Slow HSR trainsets can probably be recycled onto conventional electrified commuter rail systems if they become obsolete in HSR applications before they wear out.

The capabilities of the GG-1 and the Metroliners don't limit the Acela Express today, but the physical shape of the track alignment and the capabilities of the existing catenary do.

At the very least, it's important that sections of straight track that are many miles long have generous spacing from one track to the next so that spacing between tracks won't be an expensive problem to fix once we realize faster speeds are possible.

It also would be nice to standardize on a catenary design that works at 350 MPH and possibly even faster if it doesn't cost much more than the catenary that works fine at 300 MPH and not so well at 350 MPH which seemed pretty overengineered when the French were only trying to achieve 186 MPH three decades ago.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 30, 2010)

George Harris said:


> > Operating speeds in excess of 150 m.p.h. are authorized by this part only in conjunction with a rule of particular applicability addressing other safety issues presented by the system.
> 
> 
> Therefore, anything with a speed above 150 mph requires a special dispensation from the FRA.


I suspect that once a couple of 220 MPH systems get built in the US, the FRA will come up with some better standardized rules for making 220 MPH work, and that this language probably reflects the lack of opportunities the FRA has had to regulate systems running faster than 150 MPH.


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## jis (Jan 31, 2010)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > > Operating speeds in excess of 150 m.p.h. are authorized by this part only in conjunction with a rule of particular applicability addressing other safety issues presented by the system.
> ...


That to some extent is indeed the case. But what is important for the FRA to do is finally admit that they are way behind everyone else, and finally agree to swallow their pride and NIH and start adopting stuff that is known to work elsewhere while making standards for higher speeds, instead of going off on their own merry way to la-la land. Heck in mixed traffic they can insist on positive train separation using split derailers at each signal if that is what it takes. But please do not come up with requirements that make the train so heavy that they become impractical to run at 220mph and even if they can get up there they are too energy inefficient and too damaging to the tracks to make the whole venture economically viable.


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## DET63 (Feb 2, 2010)

By the time all is said and done, "high-speed rail" in this country will probably mean anything over 79 mph.


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## George Harris (Feb 2, 2010)

jis said:


> That to some extent is indeed the case. But what is important for the FRA to do is finally admit that they are way behind everyone else, and finally agree to swallow their pride and NIH and start adopting stuff that is known to work elsewhere while making standards for higher speeds, instead of going off on their own merry way to la-la land. Heck in mixed traffic they can insist on positive train separation using split derailers at each signal if that is what it takes. But please do not come up with requirements that make the train so heavy that they become impractical to run at 220mph and even if they can get up there they are too energy inefficient and too damaging to the tracks to make the whole venture economically viable.


There are things I could say here that are based on some inside knowledge, but I must bite my tongue. There are people in the FRA that are well aware of what goes on in Europe, both the good and the not so good, and I will leave it at that.

The FRA is not near as backward as you would make it sound, and the Europeans are near as advanced as many suppose. What we should develop and end up with is the best of all worlds, US, European, and Japanese.


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