# New Talgos moving westward for testing



## CHamilton (Nov 29, 2012)

A reliable source posts on Facebook:



> Heads up for those rail photographers living between Milwaukee and Peublo, CO. The first of Oregon's Talgo Train sets will leave North Milwaukee late this afternoon (29th) bound for interchange with BNSF Crawford, WI on Saturday. The consist includes an eclectic collection of Amtrak cars, 3 on each end as braking idlers, and the Talgo train set in the middle. Wisconsin & Southern Railroad 3802 is the initial power.


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## Notelvis (Nov 30, 2012)

Interesting news -

I'm hopeful that the Wisconsin Talgos will find a good adoptive home rather than sitting idle and fueling (more) political vitriol.


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## jis (Nov 30, 2012)

Notelvis said:


> Interesting news -
> 
> I'm hopeful that the Wisconsin Talgos will find a good adoptive home rather than sitting idle and fueling (more) political vitriol.


If Colorado were to get a sudden urge to start a Front Range service and BNSF and UP were to be not paying attention enough to agree to such....... one can dream, can't one?


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## Steve4031 (Nov 30, 2012)

I dream of the Packer's demise on 12/16 when they will get there Azz's beat by the Bears. This will be more payback for messing up my Talgos.


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## Blackwolf (Nov 30, 2012)

Here's the first YouTube video of them heading out.


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## Texan Eagle (Nov 30, 2012)

Why do they need as many as three conventional Amtrak cars on each end for "protection"? Are the Talgos so fragile?

And oh, those flashing red lights and bells are mere decorations according to people of this town right? At least a dozen cars crossed the tracks after the lights and bells turned on.. what the heck!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 1, 2012)

What route will they take all the way to Oregon? I assume that they are going to PDX. At least this is more service for the Cascades, a good alternative to those poorly built Greyhound G4500s.


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What route will they take all the way to Oregon? I assume that they are going to PDX. At least this is more service for the Cascades, a good alternative to those poorly built Greyhound G4500s.


They'll take the route through Pueblo, Colorado; which is where they're headed for testing as noted in opening post. Colorado that is, not the testing part.


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## X (Dec 1, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Why do they need as many as three conventional Amtrak cars on each end for "protection"? Are the Talgos so fragile?


I'm not one to say for certain, but (as per the OP) I believe it's to ensure enough working braking force, as the Talgo's brakes haven't been tested / certified yet.


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## Amtrak Cajun (Dec 1, 2012)

I love that interesting looking engine hooked up to the Talgo sets. I hope they have a safe trip to their destination.


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## Blackwolf (Dec 1, 2012)

You know what I just realized? The baggage car on the rear of the consist is one of the 40th Anniversary museum cars now re-purposed for this task. Makes sense to me, though you wonder why the rest of them could not be used for this, instead of those revenue Cafe cars?


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2012)

Amtrak Cajun said:


> I love that interesting looking engine hooked up to the Talgo sets. I hope they have a safe trip to their destination.


That's not an engine, just a cab car. The Talgo trainset will be powered by a conventional Amtrak engine.


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## Amtrak Cajun (Dec 1, 2012)

Ah, ok, thanks Alan.


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## MattW (Dec 1, 2012)

I believe it does however produce head-end power which sounded like it was running in the video.


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## Henry Kisor (Dec 1, 2012)

No wonder the Milwaukee Southern ran that engine long hood forward. The engineers needed protection from those crazy Wisconsin drivers. (I live in Illinois, therefore it is not only OK but also required for me to make fun of the cheeseheads.)


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## NE933 (Dec 1, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> And oh, those flashing red lights and bells are mere decorations according to people of this town right? At least a dozen cars crossed the tracks after the lights and bells turned on.. what the heck!


I didn't wanna say anything in case it was deemed to be out of topic, but yes, the first thing noticable here is one car after another breaking the law of heeding to a red light. Flashing lights, bells, and the locomotive horn all in tandem. This is why crashes like the kind in Orlando a couple of days ago happen.

Edit for the following addtion: I count nineteen vehicles in the YouTube clip, driving over the tracks in front of the train. In fact, if you closely pay attention to the black jeep going from the camera's right to left, across the street, it slows almost to a stop, then clearly makes an obvious speed up in which we hear for a second the screech of rubber tires, just as the driver has decided '...f**k it, i can make it across by stepping on the gas..'.

I hope this footage is admissable in all the courts where train/vehicle crashes will be litigated, so that the judge and jury can see the folly of this phenomenon.


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## Amtrak Cajun (Dec 1, 2012)

I was wondering about something. I know the talgos sorta make that air whistling noise, is that the tilt or leveling mechanism working?


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## Agent (Dec 1, 2012)

Henry Kisor said:


> No wonder the Milwaukee Southern ran that engine long hood forward.


Just so you know, it's the Wisconsin & Southern Railroad in Milwaukee.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 1, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > What route will they take all the way to Oregon? I assume that they are going to PDX. At least this is more service for the Cascades, a good alternative to those poorly built Greyhound G4500s.
> ...


I know that, I mean which line? If it's BNSF then I assume the ex-Burlington Route line to DEN then south to Pueblo?


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## johnny.menhennet (Dec 1, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


I believe I saw somewhere that the consist was meant to be handed off to BNSF sometime today


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## Trogdor (Dec 1, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> You know what I just realized? The baggage car on the rear of the consist is one of the 40th Anniversary museum cars now re-purposed for this task. Makes sense to me, though you wonder why the rest of them could not be used for this, instead of those revenue Cafe cars?


It's not a museum car. It's a buffer car.

Their normal purpose is to operate as a "buffer" between single-level cars and Superliners when shuttling for maintenance purposes (either to Beech Grove, or to Brighton Park), since those cars can't be coupled directly to each other.

There are two such cars that I know of, 10404 and 10405. They just haven't managed to see a paint booth in the last 15 or so years.


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## DET63 (Dec 1, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> > I love that interesting looking engine hooked up to the Talgo sets. I hope they have a safe trip to their destination.
> ...


No, it's an engine. It makes too much noise for an unpowered cab car.


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2012)

MattW said:


> I believe it does however produce head-end power which sounded like it was running in the video.


Yes, the unit is indeed supposed to have a HEP generator.


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## Trogdor (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm surprised that the HEP generator would be running. I wouldn't think there would be any need to have power on the train since there wouldn't be any people on board.


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2012)

DET63 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak Cajun said:
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Nope; not an engine. The Talgo trains were built without engines. Motive power will be provided by P42's and F59's.


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## Henry Kisor (Dec 1, 2012)

Agent said:


> Henry Kisor said:
> 
> 
> > No wonder the Milwaukee Southern ran that engine long hood forward.
> ...


Right. Correction appreciated. Serves me right for living in Illinois.


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## PerRock (Dec 2, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > And oh, those flashing red lights and bells are mere decorations according to people of this town right? At least a dozen cars crossed the tracks after the lights and bells turned on.. what the heck!
> ...


Not everywhere is that the law. In Iowa you are legally allowed to cross a railroad crossing with it's lights & bell going until the train is to close for it to be safe. You are not allowed to drive around down gates.

peter


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## WICT106 (Dec 2, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


The route the train took between Milwaukee and Prairie du Chien, WI, went through Madison! It passed just a couple of blocks from my house. This was a sight to see after work on Friday. The route actually followed the first train tracks that were laid down in WI, through Whitewater, Milton, Madison, then along the WI River, then Prairie du Chien. I went looking for the train in PdC yesterday, only to find that the interchange between WSOR & BN is closed off from the public. As it was, internet rumors indicated that the train departed PdC at 7 pm yesterday, where BN sent it south to Ft. Madison, IA. Once at Ft. Madison, IA, the train will be routed west to CO.


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## railiner (Dec 2, 2012)

WICT106 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
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Makes sense. Send it on the less busy with freight train Chief route to LaJunta, then on to the test center, short of Pueblo. Wonder if there are any (lucky to me), Amtrak tech riders on board, accompanying the equipment?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 3, 2012)

WICT106 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
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All right, so it took another railroad to Fort Madison then the ex-ATSF to Pueblo instead of the ex-Burlington.


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## jmx53 (Dec 3, 2012)

A few photos of the move were posted on Train Orders in this thread:

http://www.trainorde...d.php?1,2932764

I sure wouldn't want to be in that cab car during a collision with a truck!


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## Ryan (Dec 3, 2012)

Supposedly, it was designed for safety, not for looks.

I sure hope so, because it certainly isn't good looking!


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## Ozark Southern (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, I'm glad they have a good home. They will be well used in the Northwest. It's still sad that the Midwest can't seem to have anything nice. Still, I am looking forward to the new rail cars when they arrive in a couple of years. The Horizons really are starting to look their age. I'm willing to travel anywhere Amtrak goes, no matter what the equipment; rail travel to me is just inherently far superior to other methods. Others, however, are going to see the torn upholstery and broken tray tables and be turned off (not that I haven't been on many a plane in similar condition...).


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## fairviewroad (Dec 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Nope; not an engine. The Talgo trains were built without engines. Motive power will be provided by P42's and F59's.


So these trainsets will operate with a "normal" engine at one end, and the new-design cab car at the other end? Meaning

that sometimes the cab-car will simply be a functionless trailing unit when the train is going in the "other" direction? Or will it

provide HEP while trailing?


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## AlanB (Dec 4, 2012)

fairviewroad said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Nope; not an engine. The Talgo trains were built without engines. Motive power will be provided by P42's and F59's.
> ...


I honestly have no idea. Sorry!


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## PerRock (Dec 4, 2012)

I believe based on the currently used cars, that the Power/Cab car provides HEP regardless id the train is in push or pull.

peter


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## cirdan (Dec 4, 2012)

Amtrak Cajun said:


> I was wondering about something. I know the talgos sorta make that air whistling noise, is that the tilt or leveling mechanism working?


The tilt mechanism is passive. I'm not sure what noise you mean but it could be the air suspension.


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## jmx53 (Dec 5, 2012)

Regarding the new cab car design (& putting design aesthetics aside) I was thinking about the safety for the engineer in the event of a grade crossing accident using the example of a gravel truck (the engineer with that huge expanse of windshield sitting low compared to the engineer's height in a locomotive & a gravel load is carried high on the truck's center of gravity) so I sent an Email to the Oregon Dept. of Transportation Rail Division which is the owner of these 2 new series 8 Talgo trainsets asking about it.

I also gave them the link to the video provided by Blackwolf in post #5 and asked if the machinery noise that can be heard at 1:48 in the video was a HEP generator.

They replied:

"On safety: The Federal Railroad Administration has strict requirements for cab safety. Our new trains are designed and manufactured in conformance with current FRA crash-worthiness standards. Those standards seek to protect control cab occupants from injury in the unlikely event of collisions with other trains or railroad equipment. That said, the increasing size and weight of highway trucks is of national concern to railroads with respect to incidents at grade crossings. The “hardening” of the front ends of locomotives and cab cars will afford additional protection to train operators in the event of collision with motor vehicles of all sizes but predicting how one of our new cab cars might fare in an impact with a gravel truck or any other vehicle is impossible to know because there are so many variables.

The concept of a cab car that is integral to the trainset, rather than external as is now the case with the five existing Talgo trains serving the corridor, presents Amtrak with an operational decision. Today, if a cab car is damaged in a grade crossing incident, it is replaced by another cab car or a locomotive and the trainset remains in service. With the new trains, if an integral cab car is damaged, the entire trainset will be sidelined until repairs are made, as there are no spare built-in cab cars. Because of this risk factor, Amtrak is considering using external cab cars on the new trains in revenue service, just like on the older trains. Thus, when in revenue service, the integral cab cars may be preceded by one of the converted F40s you’re used to seeing today.

On noise in the video: Yes, the cab car is equipped with an HEP generator but the older Talgo 6 trains also have HEP generators. And HEP also is furnished by the Amtrak locomotive handling the train."


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 6, 2012)

Those Wisconsin cab cars don't look good, but they better be safe. I think that the shovel nose is desigined to absorb some impact in the event of a collision.


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## cirdan (Dec 6, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> > You know what I just realized? The baggage car on the rear of the consist is one of the 40th Anniversary museum cars now re-purposed for this task. Makes sense to me, though you wonder why the rest of them could not be used for this, instead of those revenue Cafe cars?
> ...


Interesting.

I didn't know there were incompatible couplings.

Why didn't they make them compatible?

Aren't both types of car pulled by the same locomotives? And what about when private varnish is attached?

How do they handle that?


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## Ryan (Dec 6, 2012)

The couplings are compatible, but the diaphragms get all screwed up because they are at different heights. Baggage cars (and most PVs, I imagine) have shorter diaphragms that won't rub and get messed up.


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## cirdan (Dec 6, 2012)

Ryan said:


> The couplings are compatible, but the diaphragms get all screwed up because they are at different heights. Baggage cars (and most PVs, I imagine) have shorter diaphragms that won't rub and get messed up.


thanks, makes semse


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## Amtrak Cajun (Dec 6, 2012)

cirdan said:


> Amtrak Cajun said:
> 
> 
> > I was wondering about something. I know the talgos sorta make that air whistling noise, is that the tilt or leveling mechanism working?
> ...


Its probably the air suspension then, thanks for the reply cirdan.


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## jis (Dec 6, 2012)

Amtrak Cajun said:


> I was wondering about something. I know the talgos sorta make that air whistling noise, is that the tilt or leveling mechanism working?


The only noise from the Talgo's passive tilt system which is entirely driven by gravity and centrifugal force is occasional creaking noise from the mechanical linkages. There are no motors etc. to do the tilting so no whining or any other such noise as found in Acelas.

Incidentally the active tilt system in the Virgin Pendolinos in the UK do not have the whining and clanking sounds of the Acelas, and they also tilt way way more than the Acelas since the Brits, unlike the FRA allows much higher cant deficiency or underbalance (depending on which terminology one is using). They feel a lot more like roller coasters on the one hand, but the tilt mechanism is smoother than on the Acelas, so even when they are tilting around a sharper curve at 125mph, it does not feel too bad standing up.


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## Amtrak Cajun (Dec 6, 2012)

Thank you jis, I appreciate the knowledge.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 6, 2012)

jmx53 said:


> Oregon Dept. of Transportation Rail Division wrote:
> 
> "With the new trains, if an integral cab car is damaged, the entire trainset will be sidelined until repairs are made, as there are no spare built-in cab cars. Because of this risk factor, Amtrak is considering using external cab cars on the new trains in revenue service, just like on the older trains. Thus, when in revenue service, the integral cab cars may be preceded by one of the converted F40s you’re used to seeing today."


Wait....WHAT? So they're saying the cab car is basically a piece of equipment that might NEVER be used for its intended purpose, i.e. leading a train? I mean, what

would be the point of even having it in the consist if it's just going to preceeded by an F40?


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## cirdan (Dec 6, 2012)

fairviewroad said:


> jmx53 said:
> 
> 
> > Oregon Dept. of Transportation Rail Division wrote:
> ...


The Spanish talgos, or at least some of them, have a mini cab at the end. It isn't used for actual line running, but when moving the consists around in yards somebody can sit there and communicate with the locomotive by radio. The mini cab does however have a brake valve so he can stop the train in an emergency.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 6, 2012)

cirdan said:


> The Spanish talgos, or at least some of them, have a mini cab at the end. It isn't used for actual line running, but when moving the consists around in yards somebody can sit there and communicate with the locomotive by radio.


That may be true, but it sounds to me like the original intent in Oregon was to operate the cab cars in revenue service, and that they are changing

their mind.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2012)

fairviewroad said:


> ...it sounds to me like the original intent in Oregon was to operate the cab cars in revenue service...


I thought that as well, and I would suppose that the integral cab car actually has a full set of operating controls so it can be used for normal running. In the Email I got from ODOT it sounds like the decision to use a separate cab car is being made by Amtrak which will operate these trains even though Oregon owns them.

Personally I would much prefer to see an F40 cab car on point in push mode than the integral cab car, both for safety and aesthetics, but it may be a good thing to have the integral cab car just in case the F40 needs repairs and there are no other locos available.


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## VentureForth (Dec 7, 2012)

We need DMUs.


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## jis (Dec 7, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> We need DMUs.


They exist and are FRA compliant. Orders have been placed by Marin County and by Toronto. Just a matter of others ordering more. Sumitomo is the supplier.

See Sumitomo/Nippon Sharyo favored to win SMART DMU contract on railroad.net.


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## VentureForth (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm just sick of seeing all these hodge-podge consists. Blech.


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## jis (Dec 7, 2012)

Could you perhaps be a little more verbose and specific. I have no clue what you are talking about unfortunately.


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## VentureForth (Dec 7, 2012)

What I mean is the aesthetic quality of the Cascades trainsets. The Talgos today are already short, single level coaches pulled or pushed by a P42 (?) and has an F40 cab on the other end. They have tried to make them look respectable by a fairing in the baggage car and the paint scheme tries to meld the gianormous loco to the petite coaches. That's already an eyesore in my opinion, but the Talgos are liked and my opinion doesn't really matter as I have not even ever been on one.

So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.

So, in these talks, it sounds like they haven't figured out how to work a Cab car, Cabbage, power car, two power cars on one end or how they are even going to make the trainset look respectable. Again, I haven't seen any concepts, but my imagination disappoints me.


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## PerRock (Dec 7, 2012)

Just an FYI the current Amtrak & Washington owned Talgos are primarily powered by an F59PHI. Part of the reason for that is because the FRA won't let them run here in the states really. Even now they are running with a waiver which dictates that there has to be an FRA compliant end car on both ends.

Peter


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## Trogdor (Dec 7, 2012)

PerRock said:


> Just an FYI the current Amtrak & Washington owned Talgos are primarily powered by an F59PHI. Part of the reason for that is because the FRA won't let them run here in the states really. Even now they are running with a waiver which dictates that there has to be an FRA compliant end car on both ends.
> 
> Peter


I think just the lead end, not both ends. I've seen plenty of Cascades consists where there was no cabbage/NPCU, just a locomotive on the front and a "batmobile" look on the rear.


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## NE933 (Dec 7, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.


The Talgos and California fleet have God-awful paint schemes that should never have been agreed to. Example: look at North Carolina, it's a variation on existing colors, not the same, but it works beautifully. Oregon, Washington, and California wanted a branding and culture very separate from Amtrak, whether right or wrong is another topic i guess, but when the cars are shuffled around into different trains the result is off. If Amtrak was willing to put up a little more, it could have preserved it's bargainiing leverage.


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## railiner (Dec 8, 2012)

NE933 said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > So whenever the lead loco goes out of service, they replace it with, obviously, a regularly painted locomotive from the Amtrak barn. First a huge color mismatch and just becomes downright ugly.
> ...


I think Amtrak should have insisted that all their trains whether owned by them or the states, should match Amtrak's livery. If they had to 'throw the states a bone', for financing the cars, it should have been something simple, like choosing an appropriate name. What if Amtrak did insist? What would the states do, refuse to finance the car? Or find another operatior?


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## CHamilton (Dec 8, 2012)

Am I missing something? What's with the hatred of the Talgos? Yes, they're different, and yes, they have their quirks. But as far as I can tell, most of us in the Northwest who ride them frequently really like them. The bottom line is, they're *trains!* And they work well in their intended habitat. That's the important thing.

Really, some of the comments remind me of Stan Freberg's version of George Washington's conversation with Betsy Ross about the American flag.



> George: Are you kidding with these colors? Red, white and blue?
> Betsy: Well, those are the only remnants I had around the…
> 
> George: Wait a minute! Stars? I deliberately said polka-dots.
> ...


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## Anderson (Dec 8, 2012)

The biggest beef I've got with the Talgos is really functional, not stylistic. Namely, that there's no real ability to add or remove cars based upon demand, only the ability to potentially run the sets an additional time if the schedule allows. It's that loss of flexibility (and with it the inability to slowly extend a train as time goes by and ridership increases) that gnaws at me more than anything.


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## jis (Dec 8, 2012)

That is but one of many factors to be taken into consideration, and not the most important one apparently, given that most serious passenger operators in the world, specially of the higher speed kind and the suburban kind have evolved to use fixed consist sets. Apparently the costs and benefits work out in favor of fixed consists for whatever reason. Incidentally even where fixed consists are used, they can be modified and individual units within them replaced, but it is a somewhat more involved process.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 8, 2012)

railiner said:


> NE933 said:
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> > VentureForth said:
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Really, you're concerned about matching paint schemes?


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## railiner (Dec 8, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> railiner said:
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> > NE933 said:
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Well it's not a really big deal, but personal opinion....

Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?

What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?

I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........


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## AlanB (Dec 8, 2012)

railiner said:


> Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?
> 
> What if every state that funded Amtrak insisted on having their name on the operation and/or equipment?
> 
> I would rather see a uniform and cohesive fleet coast to coast, that's all........


But Amtrak California is a separate company. They own much of the equipment and they contract with Amtrak to run the services.


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## railiner (Dec 8, 2012)

AlanB said:


> railiner said:
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> 
> > Why is there an "Amtrak California" for example? Or the other operations that would have people believe it is a different company from Amtrak?
> ...


The employees are Amtrak? they wear Amtrak (not "Amtrak California") uniforms, etc.? When Amtrak operated some contracted commuter services like MBTA, they were clearly differentiated and dedicated to those services. I don't think it's the same in this instance. Nor for the North Carolina services.

I would rather see a uniform system. The states could still own cars, with an equipment trust like plate affixed, as in years past of bank financing....

I believe its just a matter of the ego of state bureaucrats 'empire building', where they try to differentiate themselves from the national system.....


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## guest (Dec 8, 2012)

railiner said:


> MikefromCrete said:
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> 
> > railiner said:
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Many European countries' regional routes use unique livery. It helps one realize what train they're looking at, which can actually be helpful to passengers, as well as for "branding" purposes.


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## X (Dec 9, 2012)

railiner said:


> AlanB said:
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> > railiner said:
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The simple answer is that Caltrans pays the bill, so what they say goes. They don't even allow their equipment to leave the state without explicit permission, because if they do they know they won't see it again for a while, Amtrak and the frieght railroads are constantly loosing track of cars.

And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.


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## railiner (Dec 9, 2012)

X said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
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Maybe. From what I've heard, the state of California finances are pretty shaky these days--perhaps even more so than Amtrak's.....


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## jis (Dec 9, 2012)

railiner said:


> AlanB said:
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> > railiner said:
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The political intention going forward is clearly to divvy up Amtrak and spin off the State funded services as separate organizations, even though they may be operated by Amtrak in some instances. If I am a state and I am paying for something, why would I want to be hamstrung by less that spectacular service provided by Amtrak is beyond me. Now if Amtrak were actually capable of providing world class service that would strengthen their case a bit more.

Whether you like it or not. California really is a separate organization. It is not prevented from bagging Amtrak and getting someone else to run their trains if they so choose. And Amtrak does not have the wherewithal to take over and run Amtrak California should California decided to discontinue funding. Amtrak California is a distinct California operation. It also comes to mind that Amtrak could probably never have struck up the deal with UP all by themselves that Gene managed to, only because he could negotiate outside the Amtrak straightjacket using non-Amtrak funds that were available to him and not to Amtrak.

Current state of Amtrak is a stopgap measure at best. Wellwishers of passenger rail in the US really need to look beyond where we are or passenger rail, specially the long distance kind is doomed.


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## Ryan (Dec 9, 2012)

X said:


> Amtrak and the frieght railroads are constantly loosing track of cars.


Freight RR's maybe, but Amtrak doesn't have enough rolling stock to be able to just "loose" track of.


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## Trogdor (Dec 9, 2012)

Ryan said:


> X said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak and the frieght railroads are constantly loosing track of cars.
> ...


I think some track inspectors should be focusing their attention on where the track is loose. Might cause a derailment.


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## JayPea (Dec 9, 2012)

I have to agree with Charlie. I like the Talgos, including the color scheme. My dad had some leisure suits with those same colors. :lol: My next planned Amtrak adventure includes a Portland - Seattle Cascades run. As Charlie said, they're trains! Beats taking a bus from Portland to Seattle any day, in my opinion.


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## cirdan (Dec 10, 2012)

X said:


> And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.


But they won't be allowed to call it Amtrak California, will they?

So changing operator would require a massive re-branding exercise with all the associated loss of a recognized brand.

If Caltrans really wanted to be flexible about operators, they would never have called their rail branch Amtrak California but gone for a name they actually own.


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## Trogdor (Dec 10, 2012)

cirdan said:


> X said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.
> ...


Such rebranding would be very minor. The routes themselves have their own branding (Pacific Surfliner and San Joaquin). "Amtrak California" isn't exactly a household name anywhere, and changing it to something else wouldn't take much effort at all, other than scrubbing off the "Amtrak" name from the side of the cars.

I think this thread (which no longer has anything to do with the subject header of moving Talgo equipment to Colorado for testing) is drifting into the absurd with the complaints over branding details and whatnot.


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## jis (Dec 10, 2012)

cirdan said:


> X said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, Caltrans can and will get another operator if they have to, it's something Amtrak lives in constant fear over.
> ...


Changing branding is nothing massive. Many airlines do so almost regularly every 5 years or so. I think it is a complete non-issue in the broader scheme of things. Amtrak California was branded that way because it masde sense at the time. It says nothing about what may or may not happen down the line. However, if the peace of mind that one gets by believing otherwise is important......


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## jmx53 (Dec 10, 2012)

Some other videos of the new trainset on the move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxwYnumSJA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe3ca8B6Yrk


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## VentureForth (Dec 11, 2012)

Wow. Someone else has heard of Stan Freeburg! I have that song on my Android and will listen to it now. 

It's funny - My first concern had nothing to do with functionality, but purely aesthetics. Others are concerned about functionalily. The thing is, when you board the train, you don't care what it looks like on the outside.

But again, I speak in the company of railfans. Many of the travelling public DO care about the external aesthetics of a train. What they see on the outside will set their perception of what is on the inside and determine their choice on whether or not they want to pay to find out. Most won't do a google image search of the inside of a talgo set prior to buying a ticket. If they see a hodgepodge of mixmatched equipment pulling into the station with varying equipment and perhaps an "incomplete" train with the cabbage missing, they may think twice.

The concept of "Uniform" is very important in business. A uniform delivers the promise of consistency. Whether the clothing that the employees wear are uniform, or whether the look of a product is uniform, the idea reflects consistency. Professionalism. Care to details. PRIDE IN THEIR PRODUCT.

I'm sure the comfort of the Talgos are very good. I hope that these new trainsets that we are paying lots of money for will convey that uniformity to the public. It IS our money, after all. Let's demand Amtrak does its BEST to get the most return for it.


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## cirdan (Dec 11, 2012)

jis said:


> That is but one of many factors to be taken into consideration, and not the most important one apparently, given that most serious passenger operators in the world, specially of the higher speed kind and the suburban kind have evolved to use fixed consist sets. Apparently the costs and benefits work out in favor of fixed consists for whatever reason. Incidentally even where fixed consists are used, they can be modified and individual units within them replaced, but it is a somewhat more involved process.


It depends what you call a fixed consist.

Suburban operators across the world may have so-called "fixed-consist" sets, but in many cases they can combine these into longer trains. So in that respect they're not really fixed consist but it's just the ideal building block for a train that appears to be bigger than a single car.

The same with high-speed trains. Both ICE and TGV can are are run as coupled sets.

Spain even runs Talgos that way. Sometimes you see two or even three Talgos coupled and gangways/diaphragms providing connections between the sets. Sometimes these will be attached for only part of the journey. For example the Mare Nostrum Talgo from Montpellier to Cartagena will be a single Talgo set on a normal day but on holidays and other days with peak travel a second set will be attached at Barcelona and detached again at Alicante. The Talgo III type even had mini modules, which were baby sets consisting of as little as four Talgo cars, available to strengthen other trains as required.


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## PerRock (Dec 11, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Wow. Someone else has heard of Stan Freeburg! I have that song on my Android and will listen to it now.
> 
> It's funny - My first concern had nothing to do with functionality, but purely aesthetics. Others are concerned about functionalily. The thing is, when you board the train, you don't care what it looks like on the outside.
> 
> ...


If anything, I would think that the Talgos are the lease hodge-podge mixed up consists on Amtrak's system. Them and the Acela. Normally speaking the Talgos run with a Cascades-painted F59PHI, followed by a fixed consists (in cascades colors), then an Cascades painted F40 NPCU. Amtrak even went to the trouble to designing and attaching fins to the end cars to make the transition between the tall engines and the short cars more pleasing to the eye.

If you want to go off about mixed up consists you should see the long distance trains out east, those are not consistant.

peter


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## cirdan (Dec 11, 2012)

Here we even see two different generations coupled in one train.

Talgo III set coupled to Talgo Pendular set


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## VentureForth (Dec 11, 2012)

PerRock said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Wow. Someone else has heard of Stan Freeburg! I have that song on my Android and will listen to it now.
> ...


I have long shared my disdain for the aesthetic properties of ALL Amtrak trains - the only one that is decent is the non-reconfigurable, non-changable, non-lengthenable, Acela. The Autotrain looks the best, but honestly if they had the power and reliability, I'd rather see F59PHIs drive that train as they are a wee bit taller to match the Superliners. Once the Viewliner baggage and dining cars replace the heritage, then those trains will look better with the P42s, but still with that darn Cafe car in the middle with no end in sight for it. But it breaks up the Viewliners from the Amcans. Speaking of which, the Metroliner sets are (were?) really the 2nd most consistent looking set, followed by Pacific Surfliner (They got that thing RIGHT), AT, Superliners, corridor heritage trains. Talgo sets would be in 3rd if they could keep the same colors and the right locos together. But still, mixing F40 and a P42 is just, well, ick. I feel that way about the Hearland Flyer, too. Sorry.


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## MattW (Dec 11, 2012)

Huh? The Cafe car in the east is just an Amfleet like the coaches. Other than the gap in the windows in the middle (why don't they let the Cafe attendant see out anyways?) it's identical to the coaches.The Heritage diners will go away around the same time as the Heritage baggage cars. So on your typical Crescent, you'd have 2 locos, 4 Viewliners, 5 Amfleets. That's fairly uniform except for the height difference in the P42 and Viewliners, and the Viewliners and Amfleet. Then hopefully the Viewliner order will be extended to make a coach/cafe order leaving the only mismatch to the front. Hrm, maybe they can extend the order even further and make a Viewliner locomotive!


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## VentureForth (Dec 11, 2012)

DOH - You're right. For some reason, I was thinking they were like the heritage diners. My humblest apologies.



MattW said:


> Hrm, maybe they can extend the order even further and make a Viewliner locomotive!


I thought that the P42's were close to Viewliner height and that the F59PHIs were close to Superliner height...

Like this PacSurf:






Can't find any pictures of a P42 next to a Viewliner because they don't normally do that. But for the record, the P42 is 14'4" and the Viewliner is 14'0. Both about two feet shorter than the 16' Superliner & F59PHI...


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## afigg (Dec 11, 2012)

MattW said:


> Huh? The Cafe car in the east is just an Amfleet like the coaches. Other than the gap in the windows in the middle (why don't they let the Cafe attendant see out anyways?) it's identical to the coaches.The Heritage diners will go away around the same time as the Heritage baggage cars. So on your typical Crescent, you'd have 2 locos, 4 Viewliners, 5 Amfleets. That's fairly uniform except for the height difference in the P42 and Viewliners, and the Viewliners and Amfleet. Then hopefully the Viewliner order will be extended to make a coach/cafe order leaving the only mismatch to the front. Hrm, maybe they can extend the order even further and make a Viewliner locomotive!


The Crescent would be a good candidate to get 3 Viewliner sleepers once most or all of the 25 new sleepers are delivered. So it would have a balance of 5 Viewliners and 5 Amfleet IIs. Maybe save a smidgen of fuel with less air drag from the more uniform set of Viewliners compared to a mixed Heritage baggage, Viewliners, Heritage diner set.

And yes, with any luck, in a few years the Am Iis will be replaced by Viewliner LD coach cars. Then posters will complain about how boring the uniform P-42 and all Viewliner consists are because you can't make everyone happy.


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## Blackwolf (Dec 11, 2012)

afigg said:


> The Crescent would be a good candidate to get 3 Viewliner sleepers once most or all of the 25 new sleepers are delivered. So it would have a balance of 5 Viewliners and 5 Amfleet IIs. Maybe save a smidgen of fuel with less air drag from the more uniform set of Viewliners compared to a mixed Heritage baggage, Viewliners, Heritage diner set.
> 
> And yes, with any luck, in a few years the Am Iis will be replaced by Viewliner LD coach cars. Then posters will complain about how boring the uniform P-42 and all Viewliner consists are because you can't make everyone happy.


Now only if they'd come up with a Viewliner bullet lounge for the tail car.... We'd have a modern Streamliner again! :giggle:


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## jmx53 (Dec 14, 2012)

HighIronofWisconsin·posted this video on Youtube:

The Talgo Milwaukee Story and Train Tour

In this 21-minute video, we get the story of Spanish high-speed train manufacturer Talgo's arrival in and imminent departure from Milwaukee, as well as a guided tour of one of the state-of-the-art Series 8 train sets they constructed for the Amtrak Cascades service in Oregon. Featuring interviews with Talgo CEO Antonio Perez and Milwaukee shop manager Gary Young, who also guides our tour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QfzqSc4L5Q0

Unfortunately no peek at the interior of the cab car.

So sad about the closing of this plant which appears to have put out a fine product. Hopefully Talgo will be able to open another plant in another state and get some more orders so they can rehire some of the workers!


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## Swabian (Dec 14, 2012)

MattW said:


> Huh? The Cafe car in the east is just an Amfleet like the coaches. Other than the gap in the windows in the middle (why don't they let the Cafe attendant see out anyways?) it's identical to the coaches.The Heritage diners will go away around the same time as the Heritage baggage cars. So on your typical Crescent, you'd have 2 locos, 4 Viewliners, 5 Amfleets. That's fairly uniform except for the height difference in the P42 and Viewliners, and the Viewliners and Amfleet. Then hopefully the Viewliner order will be extended to make a coach/cafe order leaving the only mismatch to the front. Hrm, maybe they can extend the order even further and make a Viewliner locomotive!


The attendant doesn't have a window because they need the wall space for merchandise and equipment. Money before aesthetics, at least for crew...


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## Ryan (Dec 14, 2012)

On the side of the car with the attendant station, that's true. No reason that there can't be windows on the "hallway" side of the car. That, along with the upper level of windows would make a ViewCafe a much better experience than the lifeless cave of the current AmCafe cars.


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## Trogdor (Dec 14, 2012)

Did dude just refer to tuning into a "record" at 9:50 in that video? Nothing says modern & state-of-the-art like listening to records!


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 14, 2012)

That cab is nothing more then a Truck cab on rails. The crew is at eye level with a gravel hauler that stuck on the tracks and the snout will go right under the trailer causing all the gravel to dump into the cab crushing the crew. That's protecting the crews lives how. They were safer being higher up in a real locomotive or cabbage f40.


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## jmx53 (Dec 14, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> That cab is nothing more then a Truck cab on rails. The crew is at eye level with a gravel hauler that stuck on the tracks and the snout will go right under the trailer causing all the gravel to dump into the cab crushing the crew. That's protecting the crews lives how. They were safer being higher up in a real locomotive or cabbage f40.


I Emailed the Oregon Dept of Transportation regarding exactly this. See post #38 in this thread for the complete response I got, but the gist of what they said about this specific issue is that Amtrak is considering the continued use of the F40 NPCU for safety, and to avoid having to take the entire trainset out of service for repairs in the event of a grade collision,


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## Eric S (Dec 14, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> Did dude just refer to tuning into a "record" at 9:50 in that video? Nothing says modern & state-of-the-art like listening to records!


Clearly part of the upgrade from 1996 technology to 2012 technology referred to at the beginning of the video. :giggle:


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 15, 2012)

I know it's off-topic, but when are the first Viewliner IIs going to be delivered and enter service?


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## Nathanael (Dec 16, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> Now only if they'd come up with a Viewliner bullet lounge for the tail car.... We'd have a modern Streamliner again! :giggle:


I want!  I think that's very unlikely, though; the 'bullet' shape apparently doesn't really help the train's aerodynamics much, and it's very inconvenient not to be able to hook extra cars behind it. I do think a future Viewliner lounge should have curved roof windows like the Superliner Sightseer Lounges, however.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> I know it's off-topic, but when are the first Viewliner IIs going to be delivered and enter service?


Nobody outside CAF and Amtrak knows for sure. "2013" is still the prediction, which is pretty vague. I'm sure they'll make a big announcement.


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## jis (Dec 16, 2012)

I figure if a test car headed for Pueblo does not materialize in the first 4 months of 2013, then there would be significant doubt that anything significant will actually get deployed in 2013.


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## jmx53 (Mar 8, 2013)

It doesn't have the date it was posted, but on the Oregon Dept. of Transportation website it now says:

"They passed the tests!
Oregon's new Talgo trainsets passed the rigorous testing they've been going through the past few months at TTCI in Pueblo, Colo. The trains will soon travel to Seattle for the next stop: corridor testing and employee familiarization"

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/COMM/pages/talgohome.aspx

Also on this page, there is a link on the right for a .PDF of the Jan 2013 Trains Magazine article about the Talgos and the plant in Milwaukee.


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## CHamilton (Apr 7, 2013)

All Aboard Washington on Facebook:

Info that we have is that the new Oregon owned Talgos will be on the move to the NW. ODOT1 is supposed to leave the AAR testing center near Pueblo, CO on April 8 (tomorrow!) and arrive in Seattle about April 11. ODOT2 is supposed to leave Milwaukee about April 15. Testing will then be done in the NW corridor and the equipment will go into service this summer. ODOT2 is planned to be on display at National Train Day festivities in Portland on May 11.


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## jmx53 (Apr 7, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> All Aboard Washington on Facebook:
> 
> 
> 
> Info that we have is that the new Oregon owned Talgos will be on the move to the NW. ODOT1 is supposed to leave the AAR testing center near Pueblo, CO on April 8 (tomorrow!) and arrive in Seattle about April 11. ODOT2 is supposed to leave Milwaukee about April 15. Testing will then be done in the NW corridor and the equipment will go into service this summer. ODOT2 is planned to be on display at National Train Day festivities in Portland on May 11.


Thanks for the heads up...hopefully someone will get some pics when they are enroute.

ODOT will be having a contest to name the trainsets...click on the link in my post#96 of this thread for more info. My suggestions will be Mt. Jefferson and Mt. Mazama (Better known as Crater Lake)


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## CHamilton (Apr 13, 2013)

From All Aboard Washington on Facebook:



> One of the Oregon Talgo Sets on the move to the Pacific Northwest. This picture is in Colorado via the California Zephyr route, then via the Coast Starlight. Train number is 984(14) SAC-SEA. Follows 14(14) from SAC.


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## tomfuller (Apr 13, 2013)

Has anyone seen this Talgo trainset in Oregon (or Washington)?

I did vote for my favored "Mounts" in Oregon. I did not vote for Mt. Bachelor since the only rail line you can see it from is the BNSF line near Bend.

I voted for Mt. Jefferson and Mt. Thielsen. I wished that I had the chance to vote for Mt. Ray which I have climbed to the top of (7002 ft.) Mt. Washington should have been included (7794 ft.)


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## Trogdor (Apr 13, 2013)

tomfuller said:


> Has anyone seen this Talgo trainset in Oregon (or Washington)?


I would assume no, since it hasn't made it there yet.


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## CHamilton (Apr 13, 2013)

At the All Aboard Washington meeting today, we were told that the first trainset (the one that had been undergoing testing in Pueblo) is currently in Salt Lake City, and that it will arrive in the NW on Monday evening shortly before or after the CS. The second set is still in Milwaukee, and will begin its move upon FRA approval for the move, which hasn't happened yet.


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## DET63 (Apr 13, 2013)

Steve4031 said:


> I dream of the Packer's demise on 12/16 when they will get there Azz's beat by the Bears. This will be more payback for messing up my Talgos.


The Packers beat the Bears that day 21-13.


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## DET63 (Apr 13, 2013)

VentureForth said:


> 'PerRock' said:
> 
> 
> > 'VentureForth' said:
> ...


The only thing that I think looks a bit odd is seeing a conventional level baggage car in a train otherwise comprising Superliners.


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## tomfuller (Apr 13, 2013)

I'll plan on being in Chemult Oregon by 8AM Monday with my camera. When will ODOT start naming them?


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## Blackwolf (Apr 14, 2013)

Stepped off of Capitol Corridor #736 this afternoon in Sacramento after having lunch with my father in Emeryville, and saw this sitting on track 5:






New Oregon Talgo #7910, awaiting transit north tonight to the Pacific Northwest.


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## Trogdor (Apr 14, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> Stepped off of Capitol Corridor #736 this afternoon in Sacramento after having lunch with my father in Emeryville, and saw this sitting on track 5:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice.


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## Acela150 (Apr 14, 2013)

Any ideas on the new sets have MU and Comm's ports? I would extremely doubt that these will be MU'd together at any point.

I will add that these sets have a bizarre look to them, but I welcome it. I hope to someday get out to the NW and check out these new sets and the older sets.


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## Trogdor (Apr 14, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> Nice.


I should clarify that, by nice, I mean nice photograph. The cab car itself still looks ugly as sin.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 15, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > Nice.
> ...


Ah, I'm not the only one who thought that.


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## Ryan (Apr 15, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > Nice.
> ...


i was beginning to worry...  
That is one fugly train.


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## tomfuller (Apr 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > Trogdor said:
> ...


The cab car is not very pretty but the interior of the cars is rather nice.I'm heading out to try to get some pictures of this train in the snowy Oregon countryside this morning. Yes, it has snowed an inch overnight and it's still coming down lightly.

14 left Dunsmuir on time this morning.


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## VentureForth (Apr 15, 2013)

So are they going to turn this train? Why only one cab car? Is it a loco, or DMU? Why not add an unpowered cab car to the other end?

Yes, I agree that the insides are nice, but these trains are UGLY!


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## PerRock (Apr 15, 2013)

The other end will have an engine on it, most likely a p42.

Peter


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## MattW (Apr 15, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Any ideas on the new sets have MU and Comm's ports? I would extremely doubt that these will be MU'd together at any point.
> I will add that these sets have a bizarre look to them, but I welcome it. I hope to someday get out to the NW and check out these new sets and the older sets.


Probably a requirement, or if they ever have to tow it from the cab car end.


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## CHamilton (Apr 15, 2013)

When asked about the design last year, a Talgo rep said "blame the FRA," but wouldn't elaborate. I assume he meant that the strange-looking design is there for safety purposes.


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## DET63 (Apr 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > Trogdor said:
> ...


Yes.


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## VentureForth (Apr 15, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> When asked about the design last year, a Talgo rep said "blame the FRA," but wouldn't elaborate. I assume he meant that the strange-looking design is there for safety purposes.


There are locomotives/cabs that meet FRA requirements that don't look like Tow Mater.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Tow_Mater_-_Disney_Stars_and_Motor_Cars_Parade.jpg


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## tomfuller (Apr 15, 2013)

So suppose 2 trains leave Sacramento northbound at midnight. One train has passengers in it and has to make several stops during the night. The other doesn't have to make a stop until fueling at K-Falls. Train 14 arrived in K-Falls 39 minutes early and left at the scheduled time of 8:17.

I was at a spot 3 miles south of Chemult ready to take a picture at 8:25. There was a freight waiting on the siding for 14 to go through. I'm guessing that the Talgo train may already be in Eugene by now.

If I had known it was that far ahead, I would have headed for my photo spot near Salt Creek Falls off Highway 58.


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## Ziv (Apr 15, 2013)

Wow! I had no idea they were that ugly. That looks like something the Brits might have built in the early 70's. Nah, not even the Brits would have built something that bad. But it sounds like it looks ugly but has great performance and ugly is only skindeep.



Trogdor said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> > Stepped off of Capitol Corridor #736 this afternoon in Sacramento after having lunch with my father in Emeryville, and saw this sitting on track 5:
> ...


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 15, 2013)

Ugly!!!  70s Look for sure! The Rolling Stones named their Greatest Hits Album "Sucking in the 70s", it fits the times!


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## CHamilton (Apr 15, 2013)

All Aboard Washington says on Facebook: "Our homely little cab car doesn't look so bad in the near darkness." Taken at Centralia, WA (I think).


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## Agent (Apr 15, 2013)

What a _Cascades_ train looks like in Nevada. This just an example of several videos this user alone has uploaded to YouTube.


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## CHamilton (Apr 16, 2013)

The discussion on Facebook includes something I hadn't heard before: that the design is "to meet FRA crashworthiness standards, ...Amtrak's insistence the cab design allow for two seats and, apparently, not have a sloped windshield."


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## jmx53 (Apr 16, 2013)

Agent said:


> What a _Cascades_ train looks like in Nevada. This just an example of several videos this user alone has uploaded to YouTube.


Thanks for posting the link to this video Agent! I watched all of his other Talgo videos and my favorite is the Patrick, NV because its at speed and I can hear that very distinct sound these trainsets make going over rail joints...actually makes me miss the place I used to live that was near the tracks.


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## jmx53 (Apr 16, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Any ideas on the new sets have MU and Comm's ports? I would extremely doubt that these will be MU'd together at any point.
> I will add that these sets have a bizarre look to them, but I welcome it. I hope to someday get out to the NW and check out these new sets and the older sets.


I wrote to Oregon Dept of Transportation a couple months ago and they replied that these new trainsets will likely still operate with an F40 NPCU on the cab car end due to concerns about having to take the entire trainset out of service in the event of a grade crossing accident, so that is probably why the MU ports are still there. See post #38 on page 2 of this thread to read more of their reply.


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## Acela150 (Apr 16, 2013)

jmx53 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > Any ideas on the new sets have MU and Comm's ports? I would extremely doubt that these will be MU'd together at any point.
> ...


That makes sense. Thanks.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 16, 2013)

ODOT has posted a few photos of the train traveling through Oregon:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oregondot

Here's my favorite:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oregondot/8655646920/in/photostream


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## AlanB (Apr 16, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> jmx53 said:
> 
> 
> > Acela150 said:
> ...


You'd want the MU ports and such to be there just in case of a failure of a trainset. If one needs to hook another consist or engine on to tow a dead in the water train, you need those cables to deal with the other engine. Let's pretend that an engine fails on a northbound train and the only easy option is that the next northbound train hooks up to the rear of the dead train.

If you have no MU cables, then you cannot control the combined train from the dead engine. That would mean that you'd have to take two trains worth of passengers wanting to go north, south. With MU cables, the engineer simply transfers to the dead, lead engine and controls things from there.


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## A friend of Rocky the Goat (Apr 17, 2013)

I am really glad that Oregon bought these trains but there are a number of botched things in this order or just not as nice as the originals. Most are design problems. Poor attention to details and how things look.

1. First of all the cab. A triumph of bad design, regulation and communication. A fail if there ever was one. Many have already commented on this.

2. The Bisto car interiors look like someone just dumped restaurant equipment in a shell. Not at all the car that was made with the originals. People observed the Amtrak standards but with no fineness or creativity. Utilitarian is all that could be said. But no other business would stand for such poor design work.

3. The naming of the first class coaches. Cascade service has had a standard name for its first class: business class- certainly understandable and familiar , but these cars to be mixed in with the others are labeled custom "class" This nomenclature will be confusing to say the least.

4. The striping and detailing of the paint job. The lower strip is 3 inches too low which results in a narrower green band which is less pleasing. But what is worse and so tacky is that this means the the emergency exit decals which are meant to be white against a white strip stand out as a hash mark. It also appears that the handrails on the cab cars stick out so much from the body that they have to be wrapped with black and yellow warning tape.

All of this is poor attention to design and for $40 million dollar trains it is inexcusable. I don't know if it was Talgo USA or ODOT but someone was not minding the store.


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## Acela150 (Apr 17, 2013)

I just have to laugh at the comment about the paint.. It's paint. Who cares about it. If it runs, that's all I care about.


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## VentureForth (Apr 17, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> I just have to laugh at the comment about the paint.. It's paint. Who cares about it. If it runs, that's all I care about.


It's pretty well known that aethetics play a huge roll in the perception of quality by the public. You don't want to spend money and invest your time and life in something that looks like it was thrown together by the lowest bidder. If the paint sucks, what else - mechanically, electrically, hydraulically, etc - was done on the cheap and careless?

People want to ride on a train that _looks_ as cool as it is functional.


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## A friend of Rocky GN Goat (Apr 18, 2013)

The original purchase agreement with Talgo was for $36.6 million; ODOT has approved an additional $6 million for consultants, spare parts, testing and the addition of WiFi.

For that price, you should should get not only a train that runs but has a careful paint job.


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## CHamilton (May 21, 2013)

Via Facebook:



> Oregon II (the 2nd Talgo set) will leave Milwaukee for Seattle today following train 7(21)


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## cpamtfan (May 21, 2013)

I can't believe some people have the nerve to gripe about stuff like paint. How about they just scrap it now because God forbid it will melt peoples eyes out when they see the horrendous paint job. Give me a break.


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## CHamilton (May 22, 2013)

Via Facebook:



> All Aboard Washington · 393 like this
> 
> 
> 8 hours ago ·
> ...


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## sitzplatz17 (May 22, 2013)

Any reason why they're running two separate trains? Seem like it'd just be easier to add another loco to 7 and add the talgos on the end.

Thanks in advanced to anyone who can enlighten me!


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## fairviewroad (May 22, 2013)

sitzplatz17 said:


> Any reason why they're running two separate trains? Seem like it'd just be easier to add another loco to 7 and add the talgos on the end.
> Thanks in advanced to anyone who can enlighten me!


Well, for one thing the Talgos are going to SEA so if they were at the end, they'd be right behind the Portland section. So the

switching ops in Spokane would be a lot more complicated since you'd have to remove the Talgos from the Portland section and

then reattach them to the SEA section. Obviously not in-and-of-itself the reason to run it as a separate train, but definitely a

factor. Plus, they'd have to tack on the Talgos somewhere in Wisconsin, so the EB would already take a hit there. In the end,

running this as a separate train is probably just easier all around.


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## Nathanael (May 23, 2013)

sitzplatz17 said:


> Any reason why they're running two separate trains? Seem like it'd just be easier to add another loco to 7 and add the talgos on the end.
> Thanks in advanced to anyone who can enlighten me!


In addition to what the other person said, hauling power over the mountains. The EB is a long train. Adding an entire Talgo set (let alone two) would probably make it longer than the Auto Train, with various attendant problems.


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## VentureForth (May 23, 2013)

I'm quite frankly suprised these are attached to a passenger train at all. I would imagine that until they are fully tested and certified, they could be a safety liability to a passenger train. As for attendant problems, these cars aren't being used in revenue on this transition, so I can't imagine an attendant problem.


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## Tracktwentynine (May 23, 2013)

VentureForth said:


> I'm quite frankly suprised these are attached to a passenger train at all. I would imagine that until they are fully tested and certified, they could be a safety liability to a passenger train. As for attendant problems, these cars aren't being used in revenue on this transition, so I can't imagine an attendant problem.


In this case, "attendant problem" doesn't mean "a problem affecting the onboard service personnel", it means "...would make it longer than the Auto Train, with various *associated* problems."

From the Harper Collins English Dictionary:

_Attendant (adj) -_

_1. being in attendance_

_2. *associated; accompanying; related *- Ex: "attendant problems"_


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## Ryan (May 23, 2013)

They're also not attached to a passenger train - they're a special move 30 minutes behind the Empire Builder.


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## VentureForth (May 23, 2013)

So you see, I DID miss something.


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## sitzplatz17 (May 23, 2013)

fairviewroad said:


> sitzplatz17 said:
> 
> 
> > Any reason why they're running two separate trains? Seem like it'd just be easier to add another loco to 7 and add the talgos on the end.
> ...


Duh, of course. Thank you I wasn't thinking about 27!



Nathanael said:


> sitzplatz17 said:
> 
> 
> > Any reason why they're running two separate trains? Seem like it'd just be easier to add another loco to 7 and add the talgos on the end.
> ...


Not sure if it'd be longer than the Auto train, but I can see how it could become a concern to have a train basically twice as long as what Amtrak is used to running on that route.

I'm looking forward to pictures!


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## CHamilton (May 23, 2013)

sitzplatz17 said:


> I'm looking forward to pictures!


If you're on Facebook, check out the Empire Builder group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/AmtrakEmpireBuilder/

Several pictures have been posted there.


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