# Amtrak Closed San Francisco Ticket Office Oct 28th, 2019



## jccollins (Oct 19, 2019)

I haven't seen this posted elsewhere, but it appears that Amtrak is shuttering their ticket office at the San Francisco Transbay Temporary Terminal (SFC) effective with the close of business on Sunday, October 27th in favor of an "on-street unstaffed stop" nearby the Salesforce Center:

https://www.capitolcorridor.org/wha...eet-near-fremont-street-on-monday-october-28/

Amtrak had already discontinued checked baggage service to/from San Francisco (SFC) in 2015 with their move from the Ferry Building Ticket Office over to the Transbay Temporary Terminal. They also discontinued baggage storage services at that time in 2015. Presumably this was done to save on staffing costs at the ticket office at the time.


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## Palmetto (Oct 19, 2019)

As has been stated many times: "Death by a thousand cuts".


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## yarrow (Oct 19, 2019)

sad


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## railiner (Oct 19, 2019)

Just curious... can anyone recall any other staffed “Thruway Bus only” station anywhere else in the country, besides San Francisco?

I am not including the various “City Ticket Offices” that existed at one time...


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## RebelRider (Oct 19, 2019)

railiner said:


> Just curious... can anyone recall any other staffed “Thruway Bus only” station anywhere else in the country, besides San Francisco?
> 
> I am not including the various “City Ticket Offices” that existed at one time...



Clearwater/St. Petersburg (STP) is a staffed thruway stop. Has buses to/from ORL to connect with 97/98 and to/from TPA connecting to 91/92.


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## jccollins (Oct 19, 2019)

Here's the official advisory just posted at amtrak.com that will show up for bookings attempted on or after Oct 28th:

https://www.amtrak.com/services/con...departDate-20191112.stations-EMY|SFC|BFD.html


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## PVD (Oct 19, 2019)

Isn't this actually a Joint Powers call, and not Amtrak? It's easy to point the finger at them since they've done this themselves in many places, but this one might not be their call.


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## yarrow (Oct 19, 2019)

since you can't in any convenient way get to sf from the north via amtrak and must bus across the bay from emeryville, which in my experience many people do, it seems to me that amtrak could staff a stop in sf.


RebelRider said:


> Clearwater/St. Petersburg (STP) is a staffed thruway stop. Has buses to/from ORL to connect with 97/98 and to/from TPA connecting to 91/92.


in


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## jccollins (Oct 19, 2019)

PVD said:


> Isn't this actually a Joint Powers call, and not Amtrak? It's easy to point the finger at them since they've done this themselves in many places, but this one might not be their call.



I don't believe so. Ticketing and baggage service (was until 2015) is offered to passengers connecting with the California Zephyr and Coast Starlight as well, neither of which are under JPA operations. 

When Amtrak decided to no longer handle checked baggage at SFC in 2015, they just scheduled earlier thruway bus departure times from SFC to force passengers to check luggage at EMY or OKJ during longer connection times in those locations. This lengthened overall trip durations and put the burden of handling luggage on the passengers, but started paving the way for the ticket office closure they are now doing.


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## desertflyer (Oct 19, 2019)

As a resident of San Francisco, this is just about the worst possible outcome of Amtrak's San Francisco move. This stop is unsheltered, no seating, and completely exposed to the elements. Checked baggage is one thing - bus drivers tend to be very helpful with that - but not giving someone a place to sit and stay dry or warm is just flat out not okay. I'll be making a lot of noise about this to my state reps since this in a stop for Amtrak long distance, Capitol Corridor, and San Joaquin service.







Public transit is improving and growing in California, so this especially galling.


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## Willbridge (Oct 19, 2019)

railiner said:


> Just curious... can anyone recall any other staffed “Thruway Bus only” station anywhere else in the country, besides San Francisco?
> 
> I am not including the various “City Ticket Offices” that existed at one time...


Way back, Amtrak had some legacy bus-only agencies. Here's evidence from December 1975.


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 19, 2019)

My SFO experience was arriving at the Ferry Building after leaving a very late arriving CZ. Bus transfer from Emeryville with checked luggage went well. The Ticket Office at that location was closed and dark, no taxis available and no cell phone for me. (It was around 10:00-10:30 P. M.) Fortunately, a restaurant nearby was open. Dragging my luggage with me, I went to the establishment and asked if they could call for a taxi which they did. 

I am still "upset" the Ticket Office was closed. They should have remained open to service--as needed--the passengers arriving at that location because the train was so late.


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## seat38a (Oct 20, 2019)

Amtrak didn't all of a sudden decide to close it. The Temporary Transbay Terminal is closing, as the name says its "Temporary". Now why they didn't decide to move into the new Transbay Terminal is a different matter.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Oct 20, 2019)

When I visited the Salesforce Transit Center in August when it opened, what I assumed to be an Amtrak and Greyhound waiting area on the west side of the structure (2nd floor) was under construction. One of the maps in the transit center showed Amtrak & Greyhound stopping on the 3rd floor bus bay area near a flight of stairs that go up from the waiting area. I'm hoping Amtrak will move in there, and the SFC stop will be restaffed when that happens. The under-construction waiting area and stop on the 3rd floor is so far west, it'll be closer to the Montgomery Street BART station (a 5 minute walk!) rather than Embarcadero.


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## TiBike (Oct 20, 2019)

Between the Capitol Corridor and San Joaquins, Amtrak California runs 20 weekday round trips between San Francisco and Emeryville. There's no Amtrak staff at most train stations or at any thruway bus stop (other than SF) that's not a train station on those corridors, and people seem to figure it out. Amtrak runs three round trips (sorta) a day for the Starlights and the Zephyr between San Francisco and Oakland/Emeryville, and those make multiple stops, two of which are also unstaffed.

Why does Amtrak need to have staff to serve three departing buses a day, at just one of the stops?


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## Rasputin (Oct 20, 2019)

TiBike said:


> Why does Amtrak need to have staff to serve three departing buses a day, at just one of the stops?



I don't have a good understanding of how Amtrak operates the bus service to San Francisco but I guess it is sort of nice and helpful to have a staffed location at the primary stop in San Francisco unless nobody goes there anymore.


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## CACharger262 (Oct 20, 2019)

Few points when I asked a member of the CC JPA:

- The JPA obviously wanted to run the buses into the new Salesforce Transit Center but the roadblock that came up was how much the transit center authority was asking for insurance. The price was astronomical according to the person I talked to and was enough to cut off negotiations for a bus stop inside the center indefinitely. He said the move inside the terminal may happen in the future but not any time soon.

- He also explained that having the Amtrak bus stop on the street allowed easier access for buses coming from other stops in SF, such as Fishermans Wharf and the Financial District. Buses coming into the transit center generally come directly from the freeway and leave thru the same way, whereas Amtrak buses make other stops in the city thus favoring a stop on the street.

-In regards to the closing ticket office, he essentially shrugged and noted that the cost of running it outweighed how many people actually purchased tickets there. Its a familiar tale we've seen throughout the country.


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## Qapla (Oct 20, 2019)

CACharger262 said:


> In regards to the closing ticket office, he essentially shrugged and noted that the cost of running it outweighed how many people actually purchased tickets there. It's a familiar tale we've seen throughout the country.



As more and more people buy online - Amtrak is not the only place facing this situation


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## jloewen (Oct 21, 2019)

Qapla said:


> As more and more people buy online - Amtrak is not the only place facing this situation


Astoundingly, I was recently at DCA (Washington National Airport) facing a canceled flight and tried to book on a different airline, only to learn that said airline (United, as I recall, but perhaps American) no longer sold ticket at the airport! You HAVE to buy them on line or on the phone! Among other things, this ends sales for cash, which hurts poor people, who have no credit cards. Also, isn't it bizarre? They have LOTS of agents, but not one sells tickets?


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## SubwayNut (Oct 21, 2019)

jloewen said:


> Astoundingly, I was recently at DCA (Washington National Airport) facing a canceled flight and tried to book on a different airline, only to learn that said airline (United, as I recall, but perhaps American) no longer sold ticket at the airport! You HAVE to buy them on line or on the phone! Among other things, this ends sales for cash, which hurts poor people, who have no credit cards. Also, isn't it bizarre? They have LOTS of agents, but not one sells tickets?



What's funny in the airline industry is that for the ULLCs Frontier, Spirit, and Allegiant tickets are actually cheaper when purchased at the airport. This is for tax reasons, these airlines charge a Passenger usage fee or Electronic Carrier Usage Charge that's between $13.00 and $19.00 for a one-way segment, the only way not to pay this is to go to the airport and buy in person, I've done this every time Ive flow allegiant at our a little airport in South Bend, and saved $60 on two round trip tickets. 

The reason these airlines do it is because they dont have to pay the Federal Excise Tax on these fees, just the base fare since you have the option to go to the airport and not pay it.


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## RSG (Oct 21, 2019)

jloewen said:


> Among other things, this ends sales for cash, which hurts poor people, who have no credit cards. Also, isn't it bizarre? They have LOTS of agents, but not one sells tickets?


While I understand what you're saying, there's not a corporate business in existence now who wants to deal with cash transactions. This is particularly true in the travel business. Cash is expensive to handle, transport and account for [side note: this is sometimes given as the reason--often whispered--for why Amtrak's food service is not profitable]. In addition, large cash purchases are treated with suspicion. Pay for an airline ticket with cash, particularly a one-way ticket, and see how quickly you are _not_ able to speed through the airport on to the plane.

As for those without credit cards, fortunately it's not 1980 anymore. One of the biggest side businesses financial institutions have is selling stored value cards, including prepaid and gift cards. Usually they can be bought with cash at department, grocery, and drug stores. True, it's not quite as easy as just showing up at a ticket counter with a wad of cash, but it eliminates a lot of hassle for the carriers. And these days, they are all about eliminating hassle for them.


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## seat38a (Oct 21, 2019)

RSG said:


> While I understand what you're saying, there's not a corporate business in existence now who wants to deal with cash transactions. This is particularly true in the travel business. Cash is expensive to handle, transport and account for [side note: this is sometimes given as the reason--often whispered--for why Amtrak's food service is not profitable]. In addition, large cash purchases are treated with suspicion. Pay for an airline ticket with cash, particularly a one-way ticket, and see how quickly you are _not_ able to speed through the airport on to the plane.
> 
> As for those without credit cards, fortunately it's not 1980 anymore. One of the biggest side businesses financial institutions have is selling stored value cards, including prepaid and gift cards. Usually they can be bought with cash at department, grocery, and drug stores. True, it's not quite as easy as just showing up at a ticket counter with a wad of cash, but it eliminates a lot of hassle for the carriers. And these days, they are all about eliminating hassle for them.



At the gate at Kansas City airport, I saw something like this happen. A passenger did not have any CC or debit card so she was forced to buy a pre loaded card to pay for her luggage fee since she had basic economy and there's no free anything with that including gate check. She paid a hefty fee for that card from what I overheard.


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## keelhauled (Oct 21, 2019)

jloewen said:


> They have LOTS of agents, but not one sells tickets?



They have very few agents, really. A couple (or fewer) at a bag drop, and a roving agent for people who need help with check in/bag tag kiosks is all I ever see these days. When I flew out of Logan last month, I said "thank you" to the person who grabbed my checked bag, and that was the only interaction I had with a United employee until the flight attendant asked me what I wanted to drink.


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## RSG (Oct 21, 2019)

keelhauled said:


> When I flew out of Logan last month, I said "thank you" to the person who grabbed my checked bag, and that was the only interaction I had with a United employee until the flight attendant asked me what I wanted to drink.


No gate agent, even?


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## keelhauled (Oct 21, 2019)

RSG said:


> No gate agent, even?


There was an agent (might have been two), but since you scan your own boarding pass there isn't really any reason for any interaction.


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## jis (Oct 21, 2019)

keelhauled said:


> There was an agent (might have been two), but since you scan your own boarding pass there isn't really any reason for any interaction.



Yeah. Typically I don’t have to interact with anyone except at bag drop for checked baggage, until I am inside the plane, for domestic flights. 

These days one gets to print and tag ones own bag. At bag drop they will check your id. If you have no checked bags that step is skipped.


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## chakk (Oct 23, 2019)

jis said:


> Yeah. Typically I don’t have to interact with anyone except at bag drop for checked baggage, until I am inside the plane, for domestic flights.
> 
> These days one gets to print and tag ones own bag. At bag drop they will check your id. If you have no checked bags that step is skipped.



what ever happened to cash being legal tender for all debts public and private?


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## jis (Oct 23, 2019)

Where did my message that you quoted mention any monetary transaction? Don't understand what triggered you into making that statement. Dropping a checked bag does not necessarily involve any exchange of money at that point. It might for some, but never does for me.

BTW, speaking of ticket office closure, apparently that is a big thing in France with SNCF closing ticket offices at an accelerating rate and redirecting all purchases to TVMs (of which they have zillions all around France) and the internet. Naturally people are not liking it that much and complaining. Saw this in an article in the September Issue of Today's Railways - Europe.


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## PVD (Oct 23, 2019)

Aside from JIS not mentioning payment, I want to point out that the concept of cash as legal tender is one of the most misunderstood terms out there. It does not obligate the acceptance of cash by a business (some localities have enacted laws requiring certain categories of businesses to do it) and I suggest anyone who thinks it means that do some online research.


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## seat38a (Oct 23, 2019)

PVD said:


> Aside from JIS not mentioning payment, I want to point out that the concept of cash as legal tender is one of the most misunderstood terms out there. It does not obligate the acceptance of cash by a business (some localities have enacted laws requiring certain categories of businesses to do it) and I suggest anyone who thinks it means that do some online research.



*Directly From The Treasury
Legal Tender Status
*
_I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?_
*
The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
*


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## PVD (Oct 23, 2019)

You are kinder than I. After going through the whole thing in various situations,and being told both I and the government are wrong I just tell people to look it up. Of course, I can think of many cases where I have believed the gov't to be wrong, and have participated in marches and protests as I believed appropriate. But not in this case, for sure!


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## seat38a (Oct 23, 2019)

PVD said:


> You are kinder than I. After going through the whole thing in various situations,and being told both I and the government are wrong I just tell people to look it up. Of course, I can think of many cases where I have believed the gov't to be wrong, and have participated in marches and protests as I believed appropriate. But not in this case, for sure!



 Naw I get sick and tired of hearing how not accepting cash is illegal. It is up to the States to decide which was taught to me in High School. Missouri even has a law that allows taxing authorities to explicitly say no to cash and other forms of payments. https://law.justia.com/codes/missouri/2013/title-x/chapter-139/section-139.040/

Even the IRS doesn't have to accept cash at all locations.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/lanoa/pmta01942_7439.pdf


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## lordsigma (Oct 23, 2019)

What bothers me about this sort of thing is that by removing staff you are removing services for passengers. The only stations where the only job of agents is to sell tickets are really big stations where there is dedicated red caps and baggage staff. For all others a lot of their job is not just selling tickets, it’s answering questions and helping passengers and assisting passengers with baggage and boarding. When they shrug it off and say it costs more than what is made in ticket sales that is ignoring a lot of the other services station staffing provide. Granted this is just a thruway stop and these passengers can still get staff assistance in Emeryville where they meet the train so I guess in this example it’s less of an issue but this is still my opinion.


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## chakk (Oct 23, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> What bothers me about this sort of thing is that by removing staff you are removing services for passengers. The only stations where the only job of agents is to sell tickets are really big stations where there is dedicated red caps and baggage staff. For all others a lot of their job is not just selling tickets, it’s answering questions and helping passengers and assisting passengers with baggage and boarding. When they shrug it off and say it costs more than what is made in ticket sales that is ignoring a lot of the other services station staffing provide. Granted this is just a thruway stop and these passengers can still get staff assistance in Emeryville where they meet the train so I guess in this example it’s less of an issue but this is still my opinion.



Before this change, Passenger P could walk up to the ticket counter at the Temporary Transbay Terminal and purchase an Amtrak ticket from SFC to SAC, then board the bus to EMY to transfer to a train.

Now, when passenger walks up to the door of the bus at SFC and says to the driver, "I wish to purchase a ticket from SFC to RNO", will the driver reply, "Sorry, Bud. You can't board this bus without a ticket. And I don't sell tickets. You have to get yourself to the Emeryville station by some other means and purchase your ticket from the station agent there for your Amtrak trip to SAC."


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## seat38a (Oct 24, 2019)

God and I wonder how all the people who ride commuter rails such as Metrolink and Caltrain manage daily without an agent.  Some of you guys make Amtrak riders seem like stupid and helpless people. Metrolink only has people at Union Station. MetroRail subway in LA is all machines. Caltrain doesn't have people except at their headquarters yet people seem to manage.

Seniors and the poor also seem to manage perfectly fine on these other public transit systems which require much higher obstacles to obtain discounted or free passes than Amtrak does.

Also, Capitol Corridor trains sell ticket onboard and if you don't have a pre bought ticket, the bus driver WILL LET YOU ON. You have to temporarily surrender your ID to the bus driver. All listed in plain English here. https://www.capitolcorridor.org/tickets/

So if one is going from SF to EMY, which is where one goes to jump on the LD trains, without a ticket, then you surrender your ID until you get to the station and buy a ticket from the agent. And if you don't have an ID, then I don't understand how you thought you were going to buy a ticket from an agent anyway.


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## PVD (Oct 24, 2019)

CC even sell Clipper Cards, BART Tickets, and MUNI Tokens in their cafe cars to make life simple....


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## Bonser (Oct 24, 2019)

TiBike said:


> Between the Capitol Corridor and San Joaquins, Amtrak California runs 20 weekday round trips between San Francisco and Emeryville. There's no Amtrak staff at most train stations or at any thruway bus stop (other than SF) that's not a train station on those corridors, and people seem to figure it out. Amtrak runs three round trips (sorta) a day for the Starlights and the Zephyr between San Francisco and Oakland/Emeryville, and those make multiple stops, two of which are also unstaffed.
> 
> Why does Amtrak need to have staff to serve three departing buses a day, at just one of the stops?


Anyone traveling to points east, north or south would not have time to check bags in Emeryville or Oakland. That's why the Transbay checked baggage was useful. It operated with checked baggage until this year 2019, not 2015. I've used it many, many times. San Francisco is a major U.S. city and should have checked baggage options.


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## TiBike (Oct 24, 2019)

seat38a said:


> So if one is going from SF to EMY, which is where one goes to jump on the LD trains, without a ticket, then you surrender your ID until you get to the station and buy a ticket from the agent. And if you don't have an ID, then I don't understand how you thought you were going to buy a ticket from an agent anyway.



Sometimes the drivers don't even ask for a ticket or ID. I wouldn't count on that, but they're not Chicago-style gate dragons .



Tom Booth said:


> Anyone traveling to points east, north or south would not have time to check bags in Emeryville or Oakland. That's why the Transbay checked baggage was useful. It operated with checked baggage until this year 2019, not 2015. I've used it many, many times. San Francisco is a major U.S. city and should have checked baggage options.



There's anywhere from 20 minutes to 45 minutes of connection time built into the bus/long distance train connections at Emeryville and Jack London Square, and that's after a generous allowance for traffic delays in the bus schedule. The one time I had tight connection to the Zephyr at Emeryville, staff handled checked luggage and got everyone on board before the train left. And that was on a non-guaranteed connection from the Capitol Corridor. Even if Amtrak LD passengers can't fend for themselves as well as the average Metrolink or Caltrain customer, Amtrak staff will take care of them.


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## seat38a (Oct 24, 2019)

TiBike said:


> Sometimes the drivers don't even ask for a ticket or ID. I wouldn't count on that, but they're not Chicago-style gate dragons .
> 
> 
> 
> There's anywhere from 20 minutes to 45 minutes of connection time built into the bus/long distance train connections at Emeryville and Jack London Square, and that's after a generous allowance for traffic delays in the bus schedule. The one time I had tight connection to the Zephyr at Emeryville, staff handled checked luggage and got everyone on board before the train left. And that was on a non-guaranteed connection from the Capitol Corridor. Even if Amtrak LD passengers can't fend for themselves as well as the average Metrolink or Caltrain customer, Amtrak staff will take care of them.



As I figured, Amtrak/Capitol Corridor isn't leaving anyone in the lurch.


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## neroden (Oct 26, 2019)

seat38a said:


> *Directly From The Treasury
> Legal Tender Status
> *
> _I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?_
> ...



To make this very clear, since it's widely misunderstood:

If you receive goods or services *prior* to payment -- such as at a traditional sit-down restaurant -- you have incurred a debt, and so the seller (your creditor) must accept all cash. If you offer them a $100 bill and they refuse it, they've just forgiven your debt. Similarly, the IRS and state and county tax departments are absolutely obligated to accept cash. 

(Missouri's statute cited earlier which claims that county tax collectors can refuse legal tender is unconstitutional and invalid, as it conflicts with federal law. The issue of legal tender was hashed out in court during the cannabis cases recently; cannabis businesses have been denied access to banks, so they have to operate in cash; the IRS tried to say that they didn't have to accept the cash payments for income tax, and was smacked down hard by the trial and appeals courts. Tax collectors *have* to accept cash, though they can tell you to go to a specific place to deposit it.)

By contrast, if a merchant demands payment *before* providing services or goods -- such as with almost anything which requires a "ticket" to get in -- they can demand payment in whatever form they like, including "nothing but uncut diamonds" or "nothing but Bitcoin" or "only Chinese yuan". If you don't provide payment, they don't provide the goods or services and you don't owe them anything (no debt incurred). This is one of many reasons why many merchants have shifted to prepayments.


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## desertflyer (Nov 5, 2019)

I haven't used the new service yet, but if you want to know why they're using the curbside stop, the San Joaquin Joint Powers Authority's Marketing Manager got back to me. No response from Amtrak or the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority.



> Mr. Day:
> 
> 
> Thank you for reaching out to the San Joaquin Joint Powers Authority. We value feedback from our riders, community, and stakeholders. I would like to respond to a few of your concerns below with some context and background. Our connection to San Francisco is important to the San Joaquins. We have not taken the situation at the current “Temporary Terminal” or the move out of the “Temporary Terminal” lightly. I assure you we have considered all options with our passengers in mind. We are keenly aware at SJJPA that our service serves a diverse set of passengers. This is not just a fact but a source of pride for our agency.
> ...



I'm working with my elected officials to get a better response, to have a San Francisco stop that provides shelter and seating. This is especially important since state sponsored service is the majority of the daily service to SF. It looks like The Examiner may run a piece about the downgrades in service. I haven't heard back from The Chronicle yet.

Does anyone know when Amtrak started the transbay bus service? Was it back in 1971 or did it happen later? I'd be curious to know a bit more about the historical service.


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## railiner (Nov 6, 2019)

desertflyer said:


> I haven't used the new service yet, but if you want to know why they're using the curbside stop, the San Joaquin Joint Powers Authority's Marketing Manager got back to me. No response from Amtrak or the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It has been going on since the SP ended its transbay ferry service, and contracted with Western Greyhound to run buses from the Oakland station to the San Francisco station at 3rd and Townsend. There was a bus to meet all the principal trains serving Oakland. Santa Fe and Western Pacific did likewise, from either Oakland or Richmond to the Santa Fe 44 Fourth Street bus terminal, in Santa Fe operated buses, right up until the CZ or SFC ended service. When Amtrak started they continued the practice, using various contractor's over the years...


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## jccollins (Nov 6, 2019)

Thank you for posting the response from the SJJPA, and for taking the time to write to them as well as CCJPA and Amtrak. I wouldn't expect much reply from Amtrak, if any, and definitely not a detailed and thought out explanation like David Lipari gave us. 

While the SJJPA clearly recognizes the importance of of a robust thruway feeder network, 
the CCJPA has made it clear through their actions:

1. producing timetables that don't include thruway buses
2. suggesting that people transfer to BART at Richmond to get to SF
3. multiple day advance cancellations of the Reno and Tahoe-Sierras thruway routes at the first mention of inclement weather
4. regularly planning/scheduling inconvenient hour-plus train-bus connections at Sacramento
5. continuing to schedule the 130 mile Sacramento-Reno bus route as a 4+ hour trip rather than running a dedicated shuttle to/from each train to Roseville (where they have been planning 11 round trips/day since the last decade), and pursuing an interline or local bus operator to provide service from Sacramento to/from Rocklin and Auburn. Then the Reno thruway buses could run from Sacramento to Colfax, Truckee, Reno and Sparks competitively without all the extra time-slowing stops, and the route could easily sustain 5x/day frequency.
6. cutting thruway bus frequencies and/or service routes at any opportune moment (most of the previously heavily-used SF motorcoach stops such as Pier 39 now only have one or two arrivals/departures a day other than the Transit Terminal)
7. and now unstaffing the SF ticket office...yes, I blame this primarily on the CCJPA since their primarily commuter passengers on trains without checked baggage are the least likely to need station services)
8. etc, etc, etc. I can keep going here

that they only want to focus on their core San Jose-Oakland-Sacramento train route and totally disregard the benefits of the feeder buses. The CCJPA is great for the Capitol Corridor train route, has and does an excellent job managing the trains, but management appears to live in a bubble with total disregard for other connecting services which quite a few people need and utilize in addition to their trains. That is one thing I truly miss about the state-managed 'Amtrak California' of the 90's and 2000's.

Thank you for reaching out to the Chronicle and Examiner to see if they can cover the station closure and some of these issues. That was my hope of creating this post... to raise awareness of the ineffectiveness of one agency wielding too much power and the negative effects it has on intermodal transportation between the routes. 

A single overseeing agency, such as the now all but dissolved Amtrak California, can really coordinate these services and connections and the result is rising ridership. The SJJPA clearly plays second fiddle to the CCJPA at their mutual Bay Area stations, but the San Joaquin and Amtrak long-distance passengers - those that need the assistance from an agent for ticketing or baggage services, are the ones now taking the biggest hit.


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## TiBike (Nov 7, 2019)

jccollins said:


> CCJPA has made it clear through their actions:
> 
> 1. producing timetables that don't include thruway buses



BS:

https://images.capitolcorridor.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Bus_Schedules_10.28.19.pdf



jccollins said:


> 2. suggesting that people transfer to BART at Richmond to get to SF



That's the fastest and most reliable way to do it. Except for the super secret Amtrak Transbay Tube.



jccollins said:


> 3. multiple day advance cancellations of the Reno and Tahoe-Sierras thruway routes at the first mention of inclement weather



I-80 has the same problem, but yeah, since they're using the super secret Trans Sierra Tunnel, CCJPA is just messing with us.



jccollins said:


> 4. regularly planning/scheduling inconvenient hour-plus train-bus connections at Sacramento



When I took the Ambus from Reno to Sacto last month, I appreciated the half day in Sacto the schedule allowed for me to do business.



jccollins said:


> 5. continuing to schedule the 130 mile Sacramento-Reno bus route as a 4+ hour trip rather than running a dedicated shuttle to/from each train to Roseville (where they have been planning 11 round trips/day since the last decade), and pursuing an interline or local bus operator to provide service from Sacramento to/from Rocklin and Auburn. Then the Reno thruway buses could run from Sacramento to Colfax, Truckee, Reno and Sparks competitively without all the extra time-slowing stops, and the route could easily sustain 5x/day frequency.



Whisky Tango Foxtrot? There's one westbound and one eastbound trip to Roseville (and on to Auburn) each day. When they're done planning for 11 roundtrips, get back to me.



jccollins said:


> 6. cutting thruway bus frequencies and/or service routes at any opportune moment (most of the previously heavily-used SF motorcoach stops such as Pier 39 now only have one or two arrivals/departures a day other than the Transit Terminal)



Yeah. Totally sucks that they do something like that in a highly compact area with dense public bus and light rail service. (I'm a North Beach native -- don't tell Grandpa how to suck eggs).



jccollins said:


> 7. and now unstaffing the SF ticket office...yes, I blame this primarily on the CCJPA since their primarily commuter passengers on trains without checked baggage are the least likely to need station services)



Atomically sucks that CCJPA focuses on serving their customers, instead of Amtrak's long distance passengers.



jccollins said:


> 8. etc, etc, etc. I can keep going here



Please do. All the way to Omaha, please.


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## seat38a (Nov 7, 2019)

TiBike said:


> BS:
> Yeah. Totally sucks that they do something like that in a highly compact area with dense public bus and light rail service. (I'm a North Beach native -- don't tell Grandpa how to suck eggs).



I didn't think San Francisco had any "tough straight shooting" people left. I thought everyone was too fragile.  Careful someone might get offended.


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## desertflyer (Nov 7, 2019)

Why do old people get off topic so easily?

Thank you railiner for the historical context.


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## seat38a (Nov 9, 2019)

desertflyer said:


> Why do old people get off topic so easily?
> 
> Thank you railiner for the historical context.


Is this your failed attempt at trying to say "OK, boomer"?


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## desertflyer (Jan 17, 2020)

There is starting to be more and more pressure on Amtrak locally here and from RPA to move into the SF Transit Center.

Here's a Streetsblog write-up from today:
https://sf.streetsblog.org/2020/01/16/amtrak-non-grata-at-transit-center/



> Amtrak passengers traveling to or from San Francisco in today’s rain showers are probably all wet.


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## Michigan Mom (Jan 17, 2020)

Granted it's often easy to confuse me but this is just crazy accounting. Do they really base the staffing justifications on the revenue from tickets sold at a station? What a shady reason for cutting personnel and closing stations. It should be based on the numbers of people boarding... period! The purchase of a ticket should come with the expectation of a safe place, indoors, out of the elements to wait for a train... and hear announcements.


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## the_traveler (Jan 17, 2020)

I agree!

As a case in point, I’ll use Plattsburgh, NY. They do not have a ticket agent anymore, but it’s staffed by volunteers. It has an indoor waiting room (nice when it is 0°F and snowing), about 10-15 seats, rest rooms and the host keeps in contact letting those waiting know that the Adirondack has left the border (about 30 minutes north).


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## Barb Stout (Jan 18, 2020)

I'm curious about what buses besides Greyhound do stop inside this SF Transit Center. Reading the comments to the article, apparently BART does not, Muni does not, Flixbus does not, Megabus does not, and of course Amtrak does not. Obviously, I am not well-acquainted with mass transportation in San Francisco, but am interested because I would like to visit there at some point.


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## chakk (Jan 18, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> I'm curious about what buses besides Greyhound do stop inside this SF Transit Center. Reading the comments to the article, apparently BART does not, Muni does not, Flixbus does not, Megabus does not, and of course Amtrak does not. Obviously, I am not well-acquainted with mass transportation in San Francisco, but am interested because I would like to visit there at some point.



Some Muni routes do use the SF Transit Center, along with AC Transit, Westcat, and Greyhound at this time.


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## desertflyer (Jan 18, 2020)

Many Muni bus and trolley bus routes use the Transbay Transit Center. Here are all of the transit agencies and their locations in the transit center, although be aware that Mission at Fremont is not within the transit center, it is nearby.


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## Barb Stout (Jan 20, 2020)

desertflyer said:


> Many Muni bus and trolley bus routes use the Transbay Transit Center. Here are all of the transit agencies and their locations in the transit center, although be aware that Mission at Fremont is not within the transit center, it is nearby.


Wow, getting around there is apparently extremely complicated. Is there a single clearinghouse for all these options?


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## chakk (Jan 20, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> Wow, getting around there is apparently extremely complicated. Is there a single clearinghouse for all these options?



there is no common ticketing system (yet) that includes all transit iptions in the SF Bay Area. There are IOS and Android apps that will generate routes to go from point A to point B. But as Gary Larson once depicted, the opposite may not be true.


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## desertflyer (Jan 21, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> Wow, getting around there is apparently extremely complicated. Is there a single clearinghouse for all these options?


Clipper Card can be used to pay the fare of any transit agency serving the Bay Area, with the exception of Amtrak California. There is a push to consolidate the (27!) transit agencies: https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/


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## TiBike (Jan 21, 2020)

The public transit option on Google maps does a pretty good job of combining all the transit options into a single user platform, including Amtrak California, Amtrak long distance, Greyhound and the ferries. It's improved to the point that I struggle to find an option it misses .


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## rickycourtney (Mar 1, 2020)

Pardon for bumping this thread... but just booked a ticket to San Francisco for the first time in a long time and this is total BS.

The new transbay transit center was designed from day one to accommodate the Ambuses at two bus bays inside this amazing two-billion-dollar bus terminal.

Five/ten years ago when Amtrak was moving out of it's staffed station at the Ferry Terminal there was so much happy talk about how the move to the "temporary transbay terminal" was the first step in a great improvement for passengers.

Now, that the two-billion-dollar bus terminal is open and serving passengers the Ambuses are (literally) making a hard right turn away from that plan. (Get it? There's a bus-only bridge into the terminal, but cars have to turn right.)

Passengers arriving into The City get to sit in lousy San Francisco traffic as they wind around city streets, to be dropped off at an unsheltered bus stop that to add insult to injury... is in the shadow of the bus terminal where buses should be. Worse, for passengers leaving The City, they have to wait at an unsheltered bus stop for however long it takes for their bus to arrive.

This is a fight over money, $160,000 per year/per space to be exact. Between Amtrak, Caltrans, the CCJPA, and the SJJPA... they can find and split the $320,000 price tag. The fact that they won't is infuriating.

Also, the argument that buses need to serve other stop is BS... on the small fraction of trains that have service to the other San Francisco stops (Fishermans Wharf, Financial District, and Shopping Center/Market Street)... two buses are needed to keep schedule. They could easily have one bus to the transit center and the other serve the street stops.

*sigh*
/end rant


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## Dakota 400 (Mar 1, 2020)

I have stated this previously on AU, but the transfer of guests from the terminus of the California Zephyr to San Francisco discourages me from booking that train from/to San Francisco again. Surely, a better option ought to be able to be found.


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## Bonser (Mar 1, 2020)

rickycourtney said:


> Pardon for bumping this thread... but just booked a ticket to San Francisco for the first time in a long time and this is total BS.
> 
> The new transbay transit center was designed from day one to accommodate the Ambuses at two bus bays inside this amazing two-billion-dollar bus terminal.
> 
> ...


The Temporary Transbay was far better. You were sheltered, could purchase tickets and could check your bags. This sounds awful. And it's not Podunk, it's San Francisco. Way to go Amtrak.


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## railiner (Mar 2, 2020)

In the original Transbay Terminal, Amtrak buses did not use the elevated platforms connected to the Bay Bridge, but instead used a street side entrance on the back of the terminal.
AC Transit and Greyhound used the elevated, former train platforms.


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## rickycourtney (Mar 2, 2020)

Tom Booth said:


> The Temporary Transbay was far better. You were sheltered, could purchase tickets and could check your bags. This sounds awful. And it's not Podunk, it's San Francisco. Way to go Amtrak.


Right, and I get that having a ticket office is probably not going to happen. Nostalgia aside, few people are buying tickets in person anymore. What would be nice is a redcap cart like what the San Joaquins have in Bakersfield. Passengers walk up to the rolling cart, show their ticket to the redcap who tags their bags and sends it to the final destination. Plus, it has the unspoken benefit of putting an Amtrak employee on the platform to answer passenger questions and deter people from doing things they shouldn't on the platform.



railiner said:


> In the original Transbay Terminal, Amtrak buses did not use the elevated platforms connected to the Bay Bridge, but instead used a street side entrance on the back of the terminal.
> AC Transit and Greyhound used the elevated, former train platforms.


Right, but that was a LONG time ago. IIRC, Amtrak stopped serving the original Transbay Terminal in 1993/1994. Between that time and it's closure in March 2015, the Amtrak "station" at the Ferry Building was the primary station in town. Passengers were encouraged to go there because it had the staffed ticket counter and checked bag service. Also, if it was so important for the Ambuses that serve the Transbay Transit Center to also serve the street stops, why didn't Amtrak/Caltrans/CCJPA/SJJPA advocate for more ramps to the street? Why didn't they advocate for access to the ground-level platforms? There's no evidence that they did. So either, it actually doesn't matter that much to the involved parties or this was a massive oversight. 

In fact, I remember someone from Amtrak or one of the other parties, arguing that they didn't need to keep all of the San Francisco stops because the new Transbay Transit Center is only a block from Market Street and is well connected to MUNI. I'm not arguing either point... but they can't have it both ways. The San Francisco street stops can't be gutted while you argue that you need to be able to make street stops.

This is purely about money.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 2, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> I have stated this previously on AU, but the transfer of guests from the terminus of the California Zephyr to San Francisco discourages me from booking that train from/to San Francisco again. Surely, a better option ought to be able to be found.


A historic note.

San Francisco has NEVER had direct rail passenger service from the east or north. Passenger trains always terminated in the East Bay. Until 1958 SP and WP trains terminated at the Oakland Mole and SP ferries took passengers to the Ferry Building. Santa Fe bused their passengers from their own "station" to Oakland and later to Richmond. After 1958 both SP and WP bused passengers across to 16th and Wood in Oakland. WP boarded their San Francisco passengers in their yard at Middle Harbor Road. WP initially bused their passengers from SP's 3rd & Townsend station, later they shifted to Santa Fe's station.


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## rickycourtney (Mar 2, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> I have stated this previously on AU, but the transfer of guests from the terminus of the California Zephyr to San Francisco discourages me from booking that train from/to San Francisco again. Surely, a better option ought to be able to be found.


IMHO... the best option we can hope for is to step off a train at Emeryville (which was designed as a bus transfer point), step onto a nice bus (newer, with WiFi and power outlets) that utilizes the bus-only lane to bypass the traffic at the Bay Bridge toll plaza, and takes you to the third floor of the Salesforce/Transbay Transit Center, where your checked baggage is unloaded onto the platform after being seamlessly transferred by baggage handlers in Emeryville.


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## Dakota 400 (Mar 2, 2020)

rickycourtney said:


> IMHO... the best option we can hope for is to step off a train at Emeryville (which was designed as a bus transfer point), step onto a nice bus (newer, with WiFi and power outlets) that utilizes the bus-only lane to bypass the traffic at the Bay Bridge toll plaza, and takes you to the third floor of the Salesforce/Transbay Transit Center, where your checked baggage is unloaded onto the platform after being seamlessly transferred by baggage handlers in Emeryville.



That really would be much more guest friendly than what I experienced. On-going transportation would be available which certainly beats what I experienced having been dropped off at a closed Amtrak office late at night (My CZ was running very late) with nary a taxi in sight.


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## Bonser (Mar 2, 2020)

zephyr17 said:


> A historic note.
> 
> San Francisco has NEVER had direct rail passenger service from the east or north. Passenger trains always terminated in the East Bay. Until 1958 SP and WP trains terminated at the Oakland Mole and SP ferries took passengers to the Ferry Building. Santa Fe bused their passengers from their own "station" to Oakland and later to Richmond. After 1958 both SP and WP bused passengers across to 16th and Wood in Oakland. WP boarded their San Francisco passengers in their yard at Middle Harbor Road. WP initially bused their passengers from SP's 3rd & Townsend station, later they shifted to Santa Fe's station.



True, but you had a roof over your head and you could check bags.


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## railiner (Mar 2, 2020)

zephyr17 said:


> A historic note.
> 
> San Francisco has NEVER had direct rail passenger service from the east or north. Passenger trains always terminated in the East Bay.


Except for the Key System electric interurban’s that the Transbay Transit Terminal was built for.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 2, 2020)

Tom Booth said:


> True, but you had a roof over your head and you could check bags.


Not defending the decision not to have a station in SF, but responding to the comment that there should be a "way" to run passenger trains into SF from the east.

I completely agree Amtrak should have an actual station in San Francisco and not to move into the new Transbay Transit Terminal is irresponsible.

To put it in the same historical context, there have always been station facilities in San Francisco for rail passengers connecting on other modes to the East Bay, whether the Ferry Building, 3rd and Townsend, the Santa Fe station, Amtrak's own facility near the Ferry Building, the old Transbay Terminal, or the temporary Transbay Terminal.

Until now. Dear Mr. Anderson, don't let the door hit you on your way out.


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## west point (Mar 2, 2020)

The far out proposal for an Amtrak tunnel to Oakland would solve enough of the Transbay building problems ?


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## Bonser (Mar 2, 2020)

railiner said:


> Except for the Key System electric interurban’s that the Transbay Transit Terminal was built for.


And, of course, BART. At least east-west.


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## v v (Jun 11, 2020)

Just looking for an update on this. Is the bus stop still at the Salesforce Plaza on the corner of Mission and Freemont streets? 

It does appear strange that America's national passenger rail carrier has resorted to an unsheltered bus stop at the centre of a major world city, maybe they are intending to move to the new Transit Centre eventually?


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## railiner (Jun 11, 2020)

v v said:


> Just looking for an update on this. Is the bus stop still at the Salesforce Plaza on the corner of Mission and Freemont streets?
> 
> It does appear strange that America's national passenger rail carrier has resorted to an unsheltered bus stop at the centre of a major world city, maybe they are intending to move to the new Transit Centre eventually?


According to Amtrak's website, it still is....


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## v v (Jun 11, 2020)

railiner said:


> According to Amtrak's website, it still is....



Thanks. I did read that is the address they bus you to when arriving in the city, but thought or hoped Amtrak had plans to move to somewhere a little more in keeping with arriving at the terminus of a major city.

I wonder what happens with the elderly or the less fit when the weather is poor, do they just stand out in the rain with their bags? Surely you have to be kerbside at least 10 minutes before departure, I really can't grasp the concept of what they have now. 

My complaint over


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## rickycourtney (Jun 11, 2020)

Please don't stop complaining... this situation is unacceptable.

I took a trip to San Francisco on the San Joaquins on March 8, which was a few days before the COVID shutdowns began.

This is the bus stop at the corner of Mission and Fremont streets. It's just a bus stop sign and a panel with some information on the Capitol Corridor and San Joaquins.


Turning just to the left, in the distance, you'll see the multi-billion dollar transit center that Amtrak doesn't serve because of a financial spat with another government agency. There's no shelter from the rain between the bus stop and the lobby of the transit center (which it looks like you could use).


But as I mentioned in an earlier thread, the transit center was designed from day one to accommodate the Ambuses at two bus bays. Early maps show bay 1 and 3 being designated for the Ambuses.


So I went up to the third level to see bay 1 and 3. They're still unused and available for $160,000 per year/per space.


So I would encourage everyone to call or write Amtrak, Caltrans, the CCJPA, and the SJJPA and tell them to figure out their spat... and move inside the transit center.


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## Barb Stout (Jun 11, 2020)

$160,000 per year/per space does seem like a lot, but if one assumes 1 bus/bay 15 times a day for 365 days a year, then it's $30 per bus/bay. Having never taken a bus from Oakland Amtrak (or wherever) to the Salesforce building, I wouldn't have the slightest idea whether there are enough passengers to cover that cost, but it usually clarifies things a bit when broken down.


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## sttom (Jun 11, 2020)

$30 per bus is worth it alone for having a dedicated parking spot and not having to deal with surface street traffic. Having taken Megabus once into San Francisco (a mistake I will never make again) the surface street traffic was just as bad as crossing the bridge. I'm not sure which agency is the one that will actually make the call as to whether or not to use the TTC, but it wouldn't surprise me if one or both of the JPAs is the one that has to make the call. And one of them is trying to replace food service with vending machines so I could see them griping over having to pay $30 per bus to have access to a nice bus terminal.


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## rickycourtney (Jun 11, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> $160,000 per year/per space does seem like a lot, but if one assumes 1 bus/bay 15 times a day for 365 days a year, then it's $30 per bus/bay. Having never taken a bus from Oakland Amtrak (or wherever) to the Salesforce building, I wouldn't have the slightest idea whether there are enough passengers to cover that cost, but it usually clarifies things a bit when broken down.


There's actually 16,640 departures and arrivals in San Francisco each year, which works out to $19.23 per bus.*

The San Joaquins is the only agency that publishes its San Francisco annual ridership. It's 48,942 for the 5,096 arrivals and departures.** That's roughly 9.6 passengers per bus. 

The other thing I don't know is if the SFMTA charges anything for having an on-street bus stop.

*Per day: California Zephyr 2, Capitol Corridor 30 (weekdays)/22 (weekends), Coast Starlight 2, San Joaquins 14. That's 48 departures/arrivals on weekdays (48*5=240) and 40 departures on weekends (40*2=80). That's 320 (240+80) departures/arrivals per week or 16,640 (320*52) per year. $320,000 for both spaces, divided by 16,640 departures/arrivals is $19.23.
** 2 of the 14 daily buses to San Francisco also make stops in the Financial District, Fisherman’s Wharf, and the Shopping Center. The ridership for those stops is included in the 48,942 figure.


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## jebr (Jun 11, 2020)

As a point of reference, Megabus paid Saint Paul Union Depot $57,600/year for the space in Saint Paul, at least as of 2015 (the latest info I could find.) At that time, I believe they were running either 6 or 8 buses a day, and had their own bus bay (though there's plenty of space for it even with the lower frequency.) The building's more used now then back in 2015, but I'd expect rental costs to have not changed dramatically.

$160k per bus bay seems pretty reasonable and should be easy enough to agree upon. I'd have to think there's factors beyond rent cost playing into this (is there a per-person charge? Do they have to have a staffed counter? Are there other insurance requirements that are unusually expensive?) Whatever the issue, it needs to be resolved, and quickly.


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## rickycourtney (Jun 17, 2020)

Greyhound is renting three bus bays (presumably for $480,000 per year) plus a pretty nice ticket office/waiting room on the floor below (which can't be a cheap lease).

I'll also point out that Greyhound has been in a dire financial situation for the last few years, but they still thought it was essential to have a station at the Transbay Transit Center.


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## desertflyer (Jun 24, 2020)

rickycourtney said:


> he other thing I don't know is if the SFMTA charges anything for having an on-street bus stop.



SFMTA does not charge Amtrak for use of the bus stop. Just as ACT Transit, Samtrans, and Golden Gate Transit do not have to pay to use shared curb adjacent bus stops or bus lanes.


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## desertflyer (Nov 3, 2020)

Following the trend of moving the stop in San Francisco without much messaging, Capitol Corridor posted an alert that SFC will be moving further down Mission Street to 555 Mission in front of a Chase Bank...






Salesforce Plaza Bus Stop Moving on November 9







content.govdelivery.com







> On November 9, 2020, the Salesforce Plaza bus stop (SFC) in downtown San Francisco will move from its current location at the corner of Mission and Fremont streets to a new, nearby location at 555 Mission Street.
> 
> The new stop is in front of Chase Bank, which is about a four-minute walk west along Mission Street.
> 
> ...


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## Barb Stout (Nov 4, 2020)

desertflyer said:


> Following the trend of moving the stop in San Francisco without much messaging, Capitol Corridor posted an alert that SFC will be moving further down Mission Street to 555 Mission in front of a Chase Bank...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any idea why this is changing?


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## rickycourtney (Nov 4, 2020)

desertflyer said:


> Following the trend of moving the stop in San Francisco without much messaging, Capitol Corridor posted an alert that SFC will be moving further down Mission Street to 555 Mission in front of a Chase Bank...


It's yet another downgrade for passengers. 

At least at the old location, if it was rainy or cold, passengers could wait inside the transit center building and watch the departure time countdown on the big board in the lobby. On nice days, you could take a seat in the plaza. 

The new location has none of that.

The one benefit I see is that the new location is slightly closer to a Market Street Subway (BART & MUNI) entrance.


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## Trogdor (Nov 4, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> Any idea why this is changing?



Apparently there is construction near the existing bus stop requiring the move.


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