# Why So Heavy On The Horns at 4am - Jack London Square



## Pissed off & tired (Mar 3, 2014)

I recently moved to the Jack London Waterfront District in Oakland. Of course the apartment management company neglected to tell me and my girlfriend exactly how bad the train noise was in this area and at our apartment in particular before we moved in. Upon sleeping here the first night i was woken up multiple times from 4am-8am by the incessant blaring of the Amtrak train's horn. Is that really necessary? Holding down the horn for 10-15 seconds straight seems like overkill and complete disregard for the residence who live in this area. Anyone else dealing or troubled by this?

So frustrated! And of course moving is a pain and i just signed a 1 year lease. Thank you Amtrak conductors for unwanted and from my point of view unncessary horn honking!!

-Pissed off and Tired


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## Ryan (Mar 3, 2014)

That's why you do research before moving into a place.

They wouldn't have to lay on the horn so much if the rules didn't state that they had to.

There wouldn't have to be that rule if idiots didn't put themselves in front of a moving train so often.

So don't blame Amtrak, blame the idiots.


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## EK (Mar 3, 2014)

Then why is it that the first week it wasn't near as bad? You're telling me there have been people on or near the tracks every morning this past week? Sorry that sounds like an excuse. Many times during the day there is not a lot of horns blaring but then every morning between 4-8 there are tons of people on the train tracks? Hmm, sorry but i don't buy it. This is close to a station, this isn't a train running at high speed through a highly inhabited area. This is slowing to a stop at the station. Please explain why it is part of the rules to lay on the horns approaching and departing from a station.


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## SarahZ (Mar 3, 2014)

It's federally mandated that they blow the horn when approaching a crossing. It doesn't matter if there is a car/pedestrian there or not. They have to, even if it's the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere.

This is why, when noticing the apartment was near train tracks, the first question should have been, "How often do the trains go by, and what is the noise like?"

The trains probably don't run as much during the day. If it's the line I'm thinking of, it has a lot of commuter traffic, so you're going to hear most of the noise first thing in the morning and then again when people are returning from work. 4:00 - 8:00 AM is prime time for commuters.


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## the_traveler (Mar 3, 2014)

One reason the horns are used so much is that rules state the horn must be used at or approaching a station. Another rule state that it must be used whenever it crosses a grade (road) crossing. For a few blocks north of Jack London Square (train station) the rail line travels down the middle of the street!

That also means the grade crossing (where the horn must be used) is also a few blocks long! Also, in this stretch there are numerous vehicles and pedestrians crossing the tracks. (AKA driving on or walking across the street.)


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## fairviewroad (Mar 3, 2014)

What Amtrak trains go through Jack London Square at 4 AM?

The first scheduled Amtrak train of the day, an eastbound Capitol Corridor train, departs OKJ at 0525.

Are there positioning runs that go through earlier? Or is the OP hearing non-Amtrak engines?


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## MattW (Mar 3, 2014)

It's also cooler at night during the day. Cooler temperatures mean denser air, which means the sound travels better and will seem louder at night.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 3, 2014)

1. Blowing the horn is a federal mandate for all grade crossings. There are numerous grade crossings in the vicinity of Jack London Square. The City of Oakland can do upgrades to the crossings, like 4 quadrant crossing gates, and apply for a FRA "Quiet Zone", but unless and until that work is done and Quiet Zone status granted, blowing the horn is required by Federal law.

2. Those are UP tracks. While heavily used by Amtrak, at 4am some of those horns will be Union Pacific freight trains, not Amtrak.

3. Conductors don't blow the horns on passenger trains. They are back with the passengers, not in the cab.

4. You did notice the railroad tracks were there before signing the lease, right? Did it occur to you that they may host trains and trains are noisy?

5. This board has no official connection to Amtrak. It is a discussion forum for those interested in Amtrak. If you think you think you are taking a complaint to Amtrak, you have not succeeded. In any case, if you want to complain about a Federal law, take it up with your Congress Critter.


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## the_traveler (Mar 3, 2014)

I believe that track is also the mainline for UP. Also, commuter lines may use that track. (That I'm not sure of, but isn't there another rail yard next to the Amtrak yard a few miles north? :huh: )


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## tp49 (Mar 3, 2014)

No commuter lines use that track. It's UP freight of which there is a lot of going through there, the Capital Corridor, San Joaquins and the CS/CZ.


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## SarahZ (Mar 3, 2014)

MattW said:


> It's also cooler at night during the day. Cooler temperatures mean denser air, which means the sound travels better and will seem louder at night.


This is true, along with the reduction in ambient noise. I can't hear local freight trains during the day, but at night, when there's hardly any traffic on our street and the air is clear, it sounds like they're only a few blocks away.


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## TinCan782 (Mar 3, 2014)

fairviewroad said:


> What Amtrak trains go through Jack London Square at 4 AM?
> 
> The first scheduled Amtrak train of the day, an eastbound Capitol Corridor train, departs OKJ at 0525.
> 
> Are there positioning runs that go through earlier? Or is the OP hearing non-Amtrak engines?


AFAIK, those are Union Pacific tracks...Amtrak is a "guest" there. In the wee hours of the morning, I'd guess most of the traffic is freight.


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## BCL (Mar 3, 2014)

zephyr17 said:


> 1. Blowing the horn is a federal mandate for all grade crossings. There are numerous grade crossings in the vicinity of Jack London Square. The City of Oakland can do upgrades to the crossings, like 4 quadrant crossing gates, and apply for a FRA "Quiet Zone", but unless and until that work is done and Quiet Zone status granted, blowing the horn is required by Federal law.
> 
> 2. Those are UP tracks. While heavily used by Amtrak, at 4am some of those horns will be Union Pacific freight trains, not Amtrak.


It's not simply a crossing. The trains are literally passing through the street. I've driven there and stopped along the side as a train passed through. There are parts that you can drive through the tracks, but they've got cross-hatches near the intersections to discourage anyone from stopping on the tracks.







UP has a huge yard there next to JLS that's used for intermodal transfer of containers.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7971894,-122.285121,15z

I looked up the CC schedule, and the first train to Sac leaves at 5:30. The first train to San Jose arrives at about 6:21. If anything else is making noise, it's freight, and those can be really long.

I live about a good two miles from the UP tracks, and I can hear the horns on a warm night. The noise seems to carry better in warm weather.


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## Can_You_Hear_Me_Now? (Mar 3, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> This is true, along with the reduction in ambient noise. I can't hear local freight trains during the day, but at night, when there's hardly any traffic on our street and the air is clear, it sounds like they're only a few blocks away.


I agree. In the early morning hours on the weekend, I can be outside and hear the horns of freight trains at intersections which are about 8 miles away.


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## MetraUPWest (Mar 3, 2014)

As already stated, there are regulations specifically laid out by the FRA in regards to horn use. These regulations are specifically laid out in GCOR (General Code of Operating Rules) rule 5.8.2, signal 11, which states

"Trains traveling at 45 mph or above approaching public crossings at grade with engine in front, start signal not less than 1/4 mile before reaching crossing, if distance permits. If distance does not permit, start signal soon enough before the crossing to provide warning. Prolong or repeat signal until engine occupies the crossing. Trains traveling under 45mph much start signal at least 15 seconds but not more than 20 seconds before occupying crossing."

If that procedure is not followed EXACTLY, any responsibility for any type of crossing incident then falls on the engineer for not following the whistle regulation. As an engineer, I am NOT taking responsibility for some idiot trespassing on the tracks. Sorry the whistle bothers you, but blowing it- even at 4am- is my job, and I take it VERY seriously.

If you live near tracks, either get used to it or move.


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## SarahZ (Mar 3, 2014)

And then there are those of us who love the sound of trains and have always lived near railroad tracks on purpose.


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## BCL (Mar 3, 2014)

MetraUPWest said:


> As already stated, there are regulations specifically laid out by the FRA in regards to horn use. These regulations are specifically laid out in GCOR (General Code of Operating Rules) rule 5.8.2, signal 11, which states
> 
> "Trains traveling at 45 mph or above approaching public crossings at grade with engine in front, start signal not less than 1/4 mile before reaching crossing, if distance permits. If distance does not permit, start signal soon enough before the crossing to provide warning. Prolong or repeat signal until engine occupies the crossing. Trains traveling under 45mph much start signal at least 15 seconds but not more than 20 seconds before occupying crossing."
> 
> ...


The tracks at Jack London Square are literally running down the length of the street. If anything, they blowing their horns to give a big hint that it's a bad idea to make a turn or change lanes.


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## George Harris (Mar 3, 2014)

Dear Guest: If you feel that you are not getting a lot of sympathy for your plight, you got it right. As has been said, the railroad was there FIRST. Blowing horn for crossings is the LAW. You should have looked for what was around before committing yourself. Maybe the rent seemed cheap. Guess what! There was a reason. your complaint comes across as, oops, we built the bridge too low, so we must lower the river because we don't want to make the bridge higher. For those of us who grew up near railroads in the days before air conditioning so that trains runnign on jointed rail and blowing horns for grade crossings were part of our lives, we find all these complainers about railroad noise in the days of airconditioning and welded rails on the tracks as self centered whining. Get over it.

As has been said, most of the night trains are freight. Why are you not complaining about the day trains as well?

There is hope. After a while you will get used to it. You will adjust. The train noise will become part of your ambience and you will barely notice it. You simply have to recognize it as part of your reality.


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## SubwayNut (Mar 3, 2014)

Trains go down the middle of the street, it would be impossible to make Jack London Square a quiet zone, with the four quadrant gates and fences that are required.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 3, 2014)

zephyr17 said:


> 1. Blowing the horn is a federal mandate for all grade crossings. There are numerous grade crossings in the vicinity of Jack London Square. The City of Oakland can do upgrades to the crossings, like 4 quadrant crossing gates, and apply for a FRA "Quiet Zone", but unless and until that work is done and Quiet Zone status granted, blowing the horn is required by Federal law.


Is it possible to make a street running segment a quiet zone? Here in San Antonio we have several quiet zones, even around the airport of all places, but none of them involve street running.


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## Ryan (Mar 3, 2014)

Sure, close the street.


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## FriskyFL (Mar 3, 2014)

Did Rush tell ya to say Amtrak?


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## NorthShore (Mar 3, 2014)

You may well be right to complain about the landlord not telling you what to expect in advance. But, then, it's "buyer beware", and if you saw the tracks (how could you miss them?) you probably ought to have asked. Chalk it up to a learning experience in renting negotiations and living in "the big city."


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## Hope (Oct 3, 2014)

So I don't know what is going on But we're getting that train horn noise too. Where the heck do I complain. I don't mind if it was ONE long 10 second blare through the intersection but it sounds like an angry person driving after getting cut off and being a baby. they honk that 6-7 times at two three and four second intervals I've had enough, they are going to have to build a sound wall. BTW I live 4 blocks away from the tracks.


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## Paulus (Oct 3, 2014)

Hope said:


> So I don't know what is going on But we're getting that train horn noise too. Where the heck do I complain. I don't mind if it was ONE long 10 second blare through the intersection but it sounds like an angry person driving after getting cut off and being a baby. they honk that 6-7 times at two three and four second intervals I've had enough, they are going to have to build a sound wall. BTW I live 4 blocks away from the tracks.


Complain to your city council and ask that they work with the railroads to create a quiet zone.


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## neroden (Oct 3, 2014)

There are specific federal rules about blowing horns. (They have to hit the horn four times for each crossing, unless it's a "quiet zone"). Since the freight trains are running down the middle of the street in Jack London Square, there are serious worries about hitting pedestrians -- even at 4 AM -- and that's why the trains are blowing their horns so much.

Your local city council could close the street off, put gates around the remaining crossings, and then they could create a "quiet zone" (bells but no horns).


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## zephyr17 (Oct 3, 2014)

Hope said:


> So I don't know what is going on But we're getting that train horn noise too. Where the heck do I complain. I don't mind if it was ONE long 10 second blare through the intersection but it sounds like an angry person driving after getting cut off and being a baby. they honk that 6-7 times at two three and four second intervals I've had enough, they are going to have to build a sound wall. BTW I live 4 blocks away from the tracks.


FRA regulations. They have to sound the horn for every crossing and there are a lot of crossings there.

Did you see the tracks before you decided to move there?


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## BCL (Oct 3, 2014)

zephyr17 said:


> Hope said:
> 
> 
> > So I don't know what is going on But we're getting that train horn noise too. Where the heck do I complain. I don't mind if it was ONE long 10 second blare through the intersection but it sounds like an angry person driving after getting cut off and being a baby. they honk that 6-7 times at two three and four second intervals I've had enough, they are going to have to build a sound wall. BTW I live 4 blocks away from the tracks.
> ...


There was a fatality last night on the Capitol Corridor route. My train was behind this one and had to be routed around the area (had to back up from Fremont and then take the UP tracks that the CS takes) while the investigation occurred. So for those asking why they need to blow the horn - it's to try an reduce the chances of some idiot getting struck by a train.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/capitol-corridor-train-strikes-person-san-lorenzo-/nhbR2/

I'm guessing the time is incorrect for when the train was released.


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## VentureForth (Oct 3, 2014)

I really like George's answer.


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## seat38a (Oct 4, 2014)

Pissed off & tired said:


> I recently moved to the Jack London Waterfront District in Oakland. Of course the apartment management company neglected to tell me and my girlfriend exactly how bad the train noise was in this area and at our apartment in particular before we moved in. Upon sleeping here the first night i was woken up multiple times from 4am-8am by the incessant blaring of the Amtrak train's horn. Is that really necessary? Holding down the horn for 10-15 seconds straight seems like overkill and complete disregard for the residence who live in this area. Anyone else dealing or troubled by this?
> 
> So frustrated! And of course moving is a pain and i just signed a 1 year lease. Thank you Amtrak conductors for unwanted and from my point of view unncessary horn honking!!
> 
> -Pissed off and Tired


Really??? Did you really think your landlord was going to tell you "Oh BTW, this place sucks balls because of the train horn. And let me just throw in the homicide and the drug deals that goes on two blocks down." Your point of view its unnecessary but the law says the engineer NOT the conductor "MUST DISCLOSE" by blowing the horn, that the train is coming so someone like yourself can't hypothetically get hit by and and then later say "I DIDN'T HEAR IT."

The law says the train MUST disclose itself by blowing the horn, but no law says your landlord has to. I really hope you don't plan on buying a used car.


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## NorthShore (Oct 4, 2014)

Long long short long is the usual horn blow for a crossing. There are others (like to try and scare cows off the tracks) but this is often what you'll hear, if you're wondering why the several blows at varying lengths.


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## the Other Mike (Oct 4, 2014)

Because you didn't book Apartment E ?


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 4, 2014)

NorthShore said:


> Long long short long is the usual horn blow for a crossing. There are others (like to try and scare cows off the tracks) but this is often what you'll hear, if you're wondering why the several blows at varying lengths.


Why would a train worry about crows on the tracks?


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## leemell (Oct 4, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> > Long long short long is the usual horn blow for a crossing. There are others (like to try and scare cows off the tracks) but this is often what you'll hear, if you're wondering why the several blows at varying lengths.
> ...


???


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## NorthShore (Oct 4, 2014)

Birds in black may be robbers.


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## George Harris (Oct 4, 2014)

Pissed off & tired said:


> I recently moved to the Jack London Waterfront District in Oakland. Of course the apartment management company neglected to tell me and my girlfriend exactly how bad the train noise was in this area and at our apartment in particular before we moved in. Upon sleeping here the first night i was woken up multiple times from 4am-8am by the incessant blaring of the Amtrak train's horn. Is that really necessary? Holding down the horn for 10-15 seconds straight seems like overkill and complete disregard for the residence who live in this area. Anyone else dealing or troubled by this?
> 
> So frustrated! And of course moving is a pain and i just signed a 1 year lease. Thank you Amtrak conductors for unwanted and from my point of view unncessary horn honking!!


I said it once before, but will say it again:

G-E-T---O-V-E-R---I-T. Do you want some cheese with that whine?

The railroad was there long before you were born, much less before you moved near it. Did you wonder why the rent was cheaper than the norm for the area?


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## VentureForth (Oct 4, 2014)

George: he's only made the one post. 

When I first moved to Savannah, I may have stayed in the safest motel ever. Not only did cops stay in the parking lot, but they seemed to always have their lights flashing, too!


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## George K (Oct 5, 2014)

I live not too far from a town that has established such "quiet zones."



> The quiet zone will cover nine rail crossings. While the Federal Railroad Administration requires locomotives to sound their horns at public highway-rail grade crossings, communities that meet specific safety criteria can establish quiet zones that ban the use of train horns at crossings except in emergencies. In this case, safety upgrades necessary to establish the zone included reconstructed barrier medians, new signage, and the addition of constant warning time circuitry.


The question becomes whether your location qualifies with regard to safety criteria.


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## Anderson (Feb 3, 2015)

An offending post has been disposed of, as were two posts referring to it so as to not leave any visible trace of the conduct (which was in rather bad taste). I'm going to leave it to someone with more skills than myself to figure out if we can do anything to avoid a repeat visit.


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## Acela150 (Feb 3, 2015)

Thank you Anderson! It is greatly appreciated!!


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## TinCan782 (Feb 3, 2015)

George K said:


> I live not too far from a town that has established such "quiet zones."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The community/municipality has to go through the "hoops" and PAY for the required improvements to qualify for a quiet zone. Its not the railroad's responsibility.


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## George K (Feb 3, 2015)

Interesting, John. The "quiet zones" have been in place for a long time in the suburb north of where I live - probably more than a decade. Can you point me to what hoops have to be traversed and what improvements have to be made?

That said, that town has a very lucrative tax-base (large mall) that would fund improvements. My town could probably not afford that. I live near the BNSF, whereas the other town is on the Illinois Central.

Driving through the other town, I see nothing unusual in the crossings, gates, etc. That's not to say that there's nothing there; it's to say that I can't see them!


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## TinCan782 (Feb 4, 2015)

Here ...

http://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0104

or here...

http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L03055


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## firstcultural (Feb 4, 2015)

As a Bay Area local I'd never live in the Jack London Square area (and it baffles me why it's a high-rent area). It has the worst air pollution in the region, courtesy of multiple freeways and the container ships in the port.


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## JoeBas (Feb 4, 2015)

Would you rather have the horns, or what happened on Metro North in Valhalla NY last night?...


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 4, 2015)

JoeBas said:


> Would you rather have the horns, or what happened on Metro North in Valhalla NY last night?...


Are you claiming Metro North doesn't have horns? Or are you claiming more and/or louder horns can prevent ignorant drivers from getting stuck on the tracks? At this point I think it's pretty clear that if we really don't want any more vehicular impacts we probably need to remove our grade crossings or replace them with over/under passes. If that's too boring of a solution maybe we can design some sort of vehicle deflector on the front of our trains and upgrade our crossing gates to have cameras that can record all the action and automatically post it on youtube?


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## JoeBas (Feb 4, 2015)

That crossing in Valhalla had been converted into a Quiet Zone, IIRC (lived in the area).


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 4, 2015)

JoeBas said:


> That crossing in Valhalla had been converted into a Quiet Zone, IIRC (lived in the area).


Quiet zones in no way prevent a train from sounding the horn in situations that appear unsafe or even questionable. The engineer is still _required_ to sound the horn if a vehicle or other obstruction is visible on or near the tracks. I live near a half dozen quiet zones and some of the engineers still sound the horn at every crossing regardless if anything is in or near their path.


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## SarahZ (Feb 4, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> > That crossing in Valhalla had been converted into a Quiet Zone, IIRC (lived in the area).
> ...


That, and the gates and bells still operate in quiet zones.


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## MattW (Feb 4, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> > That crossing in Valhalla had been converted into a Quiet Zone, IIRC (lived in the area).
> ...


But in a non-quiet zone, the train is likely sounding its horn before the engineer can see that there's definitely a problem. The latest information I have shows a speed of 65 around the grade crossing, with the lowest speed being 40 in a curve about a mile away.


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## GG-1 (Feb 5, 2015)

Aloha

A while back I stayed at the Jack London Inn. Right on that street as shown in an earlier picture in this thread. I didn't think the Horns were that loud, more like music playing all night. I slept Fine.


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## Acela150 (Feb 5, 2015)

MattW said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > JoeBas said:
> ...


Limit on that section of track is 60. Train was shown to be doing 58mph per the event recorder. 2mph *UNDER* the limit.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L05204#p1_z5_gD_kquiet%20zone%20locations

The link posted above shows every QZ in america! This crossing is NOT a QZ! 2 longs, 1 short, and 1 long blast of the horn is the Federally mandated Crossing sequence.

The engineer blew the horn for 4 seconds before impact.

Should a train or engine be in the area of a QZ and the Engineer believes that their is danger, he or she must use the horn at their discretion.

I believe that the person who was killed in the vehicle was trying to get their car out of the way. IMO *IF* that person did not attempt that move, she would have survived. BUT I believe that the fire still would have occurred. Simply cause of the third rail. It's my understanding that the engineer saved several passengers after the incident before seeking safety. It is also my understanding that the engineer is extremely distraught about the incident. I give this engineer extreme credit for his actions!

I personally think that the NTSB is involved because this was a Metro North incident, and MNRR is target of FRA E.O. 29. If this wasn't a MNRR related incident they'd be shooting the sh*t with someone in DC. That is strictly opinion! They are acting like a Grade Crossing Incident doesn't occur. Granted this was a very disturbing grade crossing incident, if a BNSF train hits a car and kills someone they don't care. But MNRR hits a car and kills someone they care. Just something to think about.


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## CCC1007 (Feb 6, 2015)

NTSB seems to investigate any apparent fuel tank rupture incident. I think that is why, not only because of the incident occurring on mnrr.


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## Bus Nut (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm with CCC, this was an unusual collision with multiple fatalities. I think it behooves to find out what went wrong.

Frankly when a big heavy train hits a little old Jeep* the train should not be damaged like that.

*-or whatever

There is definitely a need for some Operation Lifesaver refreshers for adults. I was taught if your vehicle stalled out and couldn't be moved to run away from the tracks, towards (not away from) the direction of train approach to avoid being hit by debris, and to call the RR if you have time but just run if the gates are down. Run! :help:

Maybe Operation Lifesaver needs some "product placement" in movies. And less of "Fireproof" where I think there was some attempt at a last-minute "save" while a train is approaching. (Yes, I saw this horrible movie, and no, it's not so bad it's good.) Stupid!


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## Acela150 (Feb 6, 2015)

CCC1007 said:


> NTSB seems to investigate any apparent fuel tank rupture incident. I think that is why, not only because of the incident occurring on mnrr.


I can agree with that. But as a counterpoint say a BNSF or UP train hits a car at a grade crossing fuel tank ruptures but no fire. Would they come then? I wouldn't think so. I have seen a few car fires where a fuel tank ruptures no NTSB shows then. That's transit related.


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## firstcultural (Feb 6, 2015)

Being on the west coast, I'm surprised that third rails are allowed without grade separation. An easy fix for grade crossings could be license plate cameras, similar to those at red lights... for some reason, a $300 fine seems to deter people more than dying in a crash.


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## Ryan (Feb 6, 2015)

Humans are really bad at low likelihood, high consequence risk evaluation. The "it won't happen to me" factor is high. We're much better at avoiding lower consequence risks that are certain to happen.


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## BCL (Feb 6, 2015)

firstcultural said:


> Being on the west coast, I'm surprised that third rails are allowed without grade separation. An easy fix for grade crossings could be license plate cameras, similar to those at red lights... for some reason, a $300 fine seems to deter people more than dying in a crash.


I'm pretty sure there's typically a break in a third-rail at grade crossings. I thought that many typical systems have all cars with traction like a subway or BART.

I've certainly seen places where BART is missing a third rail for a short segment, although often the side is switched when approaching a station such that the third rail is away from the edge of the platform should someone fall onto the tracks.


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## jis (Feb 6, 2015)

NTSB is involved because there was fatality on the train. That will almost automatically get NTSB involved.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 6, 2015)

jis said:


> NTSB is involved because there was fatality on the train. That will almost automatically get NTSB involved.


Maybe we should say fatalities involving US territory and/or involving US designed/assembled/registered hardware and/or involving a US operator? Personally I'm glad the NTSB is involved. Not so much because of the apparently careless driver but rather because of the seemingly disastrous interaction with the third rail. NTSB involvement alone is no guarantee of a practical solution but I still like to read what they consider to be contributing factors and how they envision resolving them in the future.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 6, 2015)

BCL said:


> firstcultural said:
> 
> 
> > Being on the west coast, I'm surprised that third rails are allowed without grade separation. An easy fix for grade crossings could be license plate cameras, similar to those at red lights... for some reason, a $300 fine seems to deter people more than dying in a crash.
> ...


There is always a break in the third-rail at grade crossings. Otherwise, cars couldn't get through the intersection.

It's not just on the east coast...the CTA has third-rail grade crossings on at least two of its routes in the Chicago area. But that's a relatively small

handful.


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## Alameda neighbor (Feb 9, 2015)

If you are upset about the train noise, you should form a coalition and force the Port of Oakland to pay for the signal and gate crossing upgrades needed to implement a "Quiet ZOne" which the City of Oakland already researched and did an engineering feasibility study. Most of the noise is coming from the freight trains and the Port is building a HUGE railyard to accommodate Many many more trains in the near future. We live across the estuary and are woken up every night several times.


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## annoyed (Mar 6, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Blowing the horn is a federal mandate for all grade crossings. There are numerous grade crossings in the vicinity of Jack London Square. The City of Oakland can do upgrades to the crossings, like 4 quadrant crossing gates, and apply for a FRA "Quiet Zone", but unless and until that work is done and Quiet Zone status granted, blowing the horn is required by Federal law.
> ...


Probably not if it's on the street.



George Harris said:


> Dear Guest: If you feel that you are not getting a lot of sympathy for your plight, you got it right. As has been said, the railroad was there FIRST. Blowing horn for crossings is the LAW. You should have looked for what was around before committing yourself. Maybe the rent seemed cheap. Guess what! There was a reason. your complaint comes across as, oops, we built the bridge too low, so we must lower the river because we don't want to make the bridge higher. For those of us who grew up near railroads in the days before air conditioning so that trains runnign on jointed rail and blowing horns for grade crossings were part of our lives, we find all these complainers about railroad noise in the days of airconditioning and welded rails on the tracks as self centered whining. Get over it.
> 
> As has been said, most of the night trains are freight. Why are you not complaining about the day trains as well?
> 
> There is hope. After a while you will get used to it. You will adjust. The train noise will become part of your ambience and you will barely notice it. You simply have to recognize it as part of your reality.


It's unfortunate that everyone here is saying that you should just learn to live with the noise. Housing is extremely competitive in the Bay Area. It's not as simple as finding a new place to live. I just moved to north Berkeley and discovered these 4 a.m. horn blasts. I live far enough from the tracks that I shouldn't be hearing these. Plus the track is elevated and doesn't cross any streets, so there is no real need to blast the horn at that ungodly hour. I'm a big fan of taking the train. But it seems like the train operators make noise for the sheer joy of waking people up. ugh If a person is on the tracks just hit them. They're the ones who are asking for it. Not us.


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## SarahZ (Mar 6, 2015)

annoyed said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > zephyr17 said:
> ...


That is not an option. Federal law states the engineers have to sound their horn if someone is near/on the tracks.

I assure you the engineers are not sounding the horn "for the sheer joy of waking people up". There could be other trains/construction in the area in addition to trespassers.


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## CCC1007 (Mar 6, 2015)

annoyed said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > zephyr17 said:
> ...


there are probably closer tracks for freight trains, and most local switching that I have heard of in urban areas is completed at night.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 6, 2015)

Most rules require sounding the horn if you're approaching and or passing standing equipment on an adjacent track. It is nice to know that you advocate hitting people if they are on the tracks, Annoyed. Will you testify as an expert witness if a lawsuit is filed? :giggle:


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## tp49 (Mar 6, 2015)

The only elevated tracks in North Berkeley belong to BART who generally only sounds their horn, if you can even call it a horn, when they enter a station. The tracks the freights and Amtrak run on (at grade) parallel I-80 closer to the Bay. At night the horn blasts really carry.


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## BCL (Mar 6, 2015)

tp49 said:


> The only elevated tracks in North Berkeley belong to BART who generally only sounds their horn, if you can even call it a horn, when they enter a station. The tracks the freights and Amtrak run on (at grade) parallel I-80 closer to the Bay. At night the horn blasts really carry.


That section of BART (coming out of the tunnel) barely exists in Berkeley before it enters Albany. And yeah - there's no other elevated rail anywhere in the area.

I grew up in the area and remember active railroad tracks next the elevated BART structures - what's now called the Ohlone Greenway. Santa Fe used to run a spur route to Richmond once a day. I remember it took years for the crossing bars to be removed, even though the rails were removed fairly quickly.


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## theghan (Mar 6, 2015)

I see a lot of bellowing here about the blowing of horns because it is a federal regulation. I get that, and I understand why it can be a good idea. But what about countries, say, in Europe that don't seem to be as obsessed about this rule as much as we do? I don't have a lot of experience with European rail travel, but I don't remember all the cacaphony as described in Jack London Square. In fact, I remember standing on a platform in a small town in Switzerland once when a train came barreling through, without any warning whatsoever, and it nearly took my breath away. Others on the platform seemed to take it in stride. So, my question is...is this a uniquely American form of torture imposed on those living near the tracks, or are we, collectively, not bright and aware enough of passing trains to take care of ourselves?


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## Barciur (Mar 6, 2015)

Depends on the country. I know it's similar in Germany, you don't hear as many horns. On the other hand, in Poland rules are very similar to those here. Now, the difference is that the horns are much quieter and they are not obligated to have this long of a sequence like they are here.

For example, you hear the horn blow at the beginning and that's it before the (ungated) crossing. Then you hear it again, before another ungated crossing. But it's not as loud and long.



I actually like the required horn - especially since there's so many crossing that have no barriers or anything. And if we do not have a horn, we ultimately rely on the technology to make sure the barriers come down when the train is approaching. And what if they don't?

Now, maybe we could do away with the rigoruous procedures of the horn blowing in this sequence all the way until it gets to the crossing. But there should be a signal before each crossing, definitely.


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## TinCan782 (Mar 6, 2015)

theghan said:


> I see a lot of bellowing here about the blowing of horns because it is a federal regulation. I get that, and I understand why it can be a good idea. But what about countries, say, in Europe that don't seem to be as obsessed about this rule as much as we do? I don't have a lot of experience with European rail travel, but I don't remember all the cacaphony as described in Jack London Square. In fact, I remember standing on a platform in a small town in Switzerland once when a train came barreling through, without any warning whatsoever, and it nearly took my breath away. Others on the platform seemed to take it in stride. So, my question is...is this a uniquely American form of torture imposed on those living near the tracks, or are we, collectively, not bright and aware enough of passing trains to take care of ourselves?


That is "there", we are "here"! There can be endless debate as to the "brightness" of people here who seem to need protection from themselves.


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## Gord (Mar 6, 2015)

Maybe they aren't as lawsuit happy in Europe or perhaps the auto and truck drivers are more competent and don't cause so many crossing accidents?

Canadian operating rules are pretty similar to US rules including blowing of the horn for desigated crossings as prescribed by rule 14L . Local jurisdictions can apply for exemptions for specific crossings but that can often mean someone has to pony up the funds for improved crossing protection such as gates. I also wonder about insurance and kiability issues for exempted crossings? Blowing the horn in advance of crossings can save lives which is the main reason it's legislated.

Oddly enough, I'm working in Memphis now and even downtown, there are no restrictions on blowing horns for crossings. There's a crossing right beside the downtown Comfort Inn and the CONO blows for the crossing and several othgers at about 06:20 southbound and 22:45 northbound along with the odd CN wayfreight.. CONO was about two hours late this morning.

Gord


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