# New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019



## SanDiegan

From today’s hotline:

“Rail Passengers Association was disappointed to learn this week that Amtrak plans to extend its Contemporary Dining menu and dining service on to all of the long-distance trains east of the Mississippi.

The move takes effect October 1 -- the beginning of Fiscal 2020 -- as part of a package of changes rolling out on trains in the eastern half of the country. Western trains are not affected by this move.”

Ride them while you can ...


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## chrsjrcj

Does this include the Cardinal?


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## PVD

Does that imply a return of a diner to the SS?


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## iliketrains

I’d better plan my trip on the Crescent or is it not included in the contemporary dining?


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## Amtrakfflyer

The bigger issue no one has mentioned is no “meals” for coach passengers on half the network now..

What about Auto Train?

So the whole V2 diner order was a waste as currently configured. If they retrofitted some true lounge seating ala the PPC it would be more palatable, still no help for coach passengers however.

All Anderson knows how to do is cut cut cut.


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## OBS

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The bigger issue no one has mentioned is no “meals” for coach passengers on half the network now..
> 
> What about Auto Train?
> 
> So the whole V2 diner order was a waste as currently configured. If they retrofitted some true lounge seating ala the PPC it would be more palatable, still no help for coach passengers however.
> 
> All Anderson knows how to do is cut cut cut.


The Coach Diner is coming off the Auto Train in January according to what an Auto Train employee posted on FB.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Wow Contemporary dining on the Auto train. He’s really burning the house down.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The bigger issue no one has mentioned is no “meals” for coach passengers on half the network now..
> 
> What about Auto Train?
> 
> So the whole V2 diner order was a waste as currently configured. If they retrofitted some true lounge seating ala the PPC it would be more palatable, still no help for coach passengers however.
> 
> All Anderson knows how to do is cut cut cut.


I wouldn't mind the change if the diner/sleeper lounge was open to coach passengers. Given that there will be high demand for cafe service, I'd like to see it operated similar to an SSL, with the cafe functioning as the lower level of an SSL (dedicated to eating food from the train) and the old dining cars used as observation cars that are open to anyone for all purposes.


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## AutoTrDvr

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Wow Contemporary dining on the Auto train. He’s really burning the house down.



They're playing with Fire if they do that.


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## pennyk

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Wow Contemporary dining on the Auto train. He’s really burning the house down.


I heard from an RPA employee today that the Auto Train will not have Contemporary Dining.


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## saxman

I’m sure glad Amtrak bought all these brand new diners with full kitchens and designed with staff input for serving efficiency. The great thing is they can collect lots of extra revenue from coach passengers that want a real dining experience as well. Oh wait...


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## Acela150

Ok, I'm officially fed up with Amtrak's direction as far as the LD trains go. I'll be drafting a letter to my Senators and Reps tonight.


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## SanDiegan

pennyk said:


> I heard from an RPA employee today that the Auto Train will not have Contemporary Dining.



Makes sense since it serves the NEC crowd ...


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## Amtrakfflyer

I wonder about the Texas Eagle as well. I live on the Mississippi River in the quad cities, I can’t even do the geography. I took the Eagle in January a lot of it is east of the Mississippi. Looking at Amtrak’s website they don’t even know what category the Eagle falls in. It’s a train on its own...


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## TinCan782

Here's the link to the announcement ... 
https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/hotline/hotline-1-125/


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## LookingGlassTie

Serious question (as I'm not business-savvy): why does food service on the trains seem to be such an easy target for cutbacks?


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## dogbert617

pennyk said:


> I heard from an RPA employee today that the Auto Train will not have Contemporary Dining.



So Auto Train is the only exception, east of Chicago? This is super sad news. And ugh, I'm sure if this really is coming to Silver Meteor, that this'll greatly annoy those riders. Why can't Amtrak more fine tune contemporary dining on Cap and Lake Shore, before rolling this out to more trains? Ugh.

I sadly have a fear that it may only be a matter of time (a year?), before we start to see similar dining car cutbacks to western trains.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Welcome to Amtrak 2020


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## bms

I'll certainly miss the experience of meeting people on the trains. Eating in a real dining car is the main thing making the sleeper cars worth the high price.

I have friends who want to try taking the train, but I haven't been recommending it since the diners were cut from the Lake Shore Limited. It's not really a nice experience to ride from CLE-BOS or CLE-NYP without a real meal.


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## Willbridge

LookingGlassTie said:


> Serious question (as I'm not business-savvy): why does food service on the trains seem to be such an easy target for cutbacks?


It has unionized crews with wages and benefits, combined with costs of handling food in a specialized environment over vast distances. Customers, on the other hand, compare its high prices against their hometown cafe with its minimum wage help and daily deliveries to the business by Sysco, beverage firms, etc.

Privately-run railways subsidized food as an attraction, just as some airlines and cruise lines do. Under public ownership there is always a faction that wants a show of austerity, no matter how much it costs in lost revenue.

Some privately-owned railways promoted on-line agriculture. A few of the state-sponsored trains do that. Customers line up eagerly for Ivar's Clam Chowder on the _Cascades _and enjoy good coffee_._ On the second-class trains that have no state supervision we coach passengers will be asked to line up for pre-packaged loads of salt, fat and sugar. Complaints will be gladly received as evidence of Federal tight-fistedness.


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## dogbert617

Willbridge said:


> It has unionized crews with wages and benefits, combined with costs of handling food in a specialized environment over vast distances. Customers, on the other hand, compare its high prices against their hometown cafe with its minimum wage help and daily deliveries to the business by Sysco, beverage firms, etc.
> 
> Privately-run railways subsidized food as an attraction, just as some airlines and cruise lines do. Under public ownership there is always a faction that wants a show of austerity, no matter how much it costs in lost revenue.
> 
> Some privately-owned railways promoted on-line agriculture. A few of the state-sponsored trains do that. Customers line up eagerly for Ivar's Clam Chowder on the _Cascades _and enjoy good coffee_._ On the second-class trains that have no state supervision we coach passengers will be asked to line up for pre-packaged loads of salt, fat and sugar. Complaints will be gladly received as evidence of Federal tight-fistedness.



If that's true about Amtrak Cascades having some special items in its cafe car not served on other Amtrak regional trains, I'd love to see the cafe car menu for that train. Now makes me wonder if i.e. Pacific Surfliner has any special cafe car food items served only on that train, not available on other Amtrak regional(or long distance) trains?

BTW, I can report for Lincoln Service(Chicago-St. Louis) trains at least with a trip a few months back confirming it, that Gooey Butter Cake(a famous Saint Louis dessert) is available to purchase in its cafe car. I have never seen that served in the cafe car, of any other Amtrak Midwest regional cafe cars(i.e. Michigan trains) I've eaten in!



bms said:


> I'll certainly miss the experience of meeting people on the trains. Eating in a real dining car is the main thing making the sleeper cars worth the high price.
> 
> I have friends who want to try taking the train, but I haven't been recommending it since the diners were cut from the Lake Shore Limited. It's not really a nice experience to ride from CLE-BOS or CLE-NYP without a real meal.



Yep, I absolutely agree about this always being fun about eating in the dining car! That you end up having interesting conversations more than likely, with others if you choose to go over to the dining car(over having dining car food being delivered to your sleeper room) to eat.



Amtrakfflyer said:


> I wonder about the Texas Eagle as well. I live on the Mississippi River in the quad cities, I can’t even do the geography. I took the Eagle in January a lot of it is east of the Mississippi. Looking at Amtrak’s website they don’t even know what category the Eagle falls in. It’s a train on its own...



At least I want to think this announcement on Rail Passengers Association's website doesn't include Texas Eagle, since all of its route south of Saint Louis is west of the Mississippi. Fingers crossed, that it isn't yet losing its diner! I'd sure like to also think CONO isn't about to lose its diner menu either, but would like some confirmation on this.


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## OlympianHiawatha

Before everyone gets excited over unconfirmed rumors, let's wait until we get official word from Amtrak!


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## SP&S

dogbert617 said:


> If that's true about Amtrak Cascades having some special items in its cafe car not served on other Amtrak regional trains, I'd love to see the cafe car menu for that train. Now makes me wonder if i.e. Pacific Surfliner has any special cafe car food items served only on that train, not available on other Amtrak regional(or long distance) trains?



Here ya go https://www.amtrakcascades.com/sites/default/files/AmtrakCascadesBistromenu_0.pdf


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## brianpmcdonnell17

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Before everyone gets excited over unconfirmed rumors, let's wait until we get official word from Amtrak!


RPA is generally a reliable source; this news didn't just come from a bunch of anti-Anderson railfans.


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## Maverickstation

SP&S said:


> Here ya go https://www.amtrakcascades.com/sites/default/files/AmtrakCascadesBistromenu_0.pdf



The Downeaster Trains which are run by Amtrak for the Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority also have a local menu.

https://amtrakdowneaster.com/sites/default/files/users/user10/2019_Updated_NexdineMenu.pdf


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## PVD

It is not unusual for regional items or menus to be included on the state subsidized trains. NY does it also. Downeaster is unique in that food service is outside of the scope of the Amtrak contract, provided separtely, and the agency that oversees that service is willing to accept losses incurred in providing food service as an overall benefit to the route, since they believe it attracts more passengers and allows a higher price point.


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## tim49424

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> RPA is generally a reliable source; this news didn't just come from a bunch of anti-Anderson railfans.



RPA might as well be Amtrak regarding being a source. They’re going to bat for passengers and are constantly in contact with Amtrak to negotiate a better experience for us. 

Regarding the Texas Eagle, the announcement did state that Western trains are not affected by the changes. I believe the definition of a Western train is one the leaves Chicago westward. The Mississippi River has no bearing on the east/west border.


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## dogbert617

tim49424 said:


> RPA might as well be Amtrak regarding being a source. They’re going to bat for passengers and are constantly in contact with Amtrak to negotiate a better experience for us.
> 
> Regarding the Texas Eagle, the announcement did state that Western trains are not affected by the changes. I believe the definition of a Western train is one the leaves Chicago westward. The Mississippi River has no bearing on the east/west border.



Yep, like others I have the impression(at least for now) that Texas Eagle isn't yet going down to contemporary dining. I worry that down the road(a year from now?), it may happen though. My only question, is if this cutback of trains to contemporary dining(excluding Auto Train) will affect City of New Orleans? I worry it may be one of the affected trains(and as that's a 2 day train from start to end, and not a 3 or 4(for combined Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited) day one), but just want some confirmation for sure. And as CONO is east of the Mississippi, I certainly do fear this contemporary dining (my arse) announcement does affect that train.


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## tim49424

dogbert617 said:


> Yep, like others I have the impression(at least for now) that Texas Eagle isn't yet going down to contemporary dining. I worry that down the road(a year from now?), it may happen though. My only question, is if this cutback of trains to contemporary dining(excluding Auto Train) will affect City of New Orleans? I worry it may be one of the affected trains(and as that's a 2 day train from start to end, and not a 3 or 4(for combined Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited) day one), but just want some confirmation for sure. And as CONO is east of the Mississippi, I certainly do fear this contemporary dining (my arse) announcement does affect that train.



I do believe the CONO will be affected as they are, I believe, considered an Eastern train. The most drastic changes will come to the Auto Train, Crescent and Silver Meteor which have the general Long Distance menu. I am not going to speculate about when (if) the Western trains will institute the “contemporary dining”. I’m putting my trust in the RPA where that matter is concerned. All I’ll say for now is I’ll continue riding the train, east or west even if it all gets changed. I’m not even sure where the deal breaker lies for me.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Regarding the RPA, another nonchalant Friday update with this news.
When are they going to call a spade, a spade and call out Amtrak management in front of Congress. Starting with Anderson and Gardner are incompetent and deceitful (obviously not in those exact words).

Fast forward 6 months from now the next nonchalant update very well could be, “we are disheartened to learn Amtrak is suspending 11 of the 15 national network trains, the 4 remaining will operate tri weekly, except the CA Zephyr which will be 1x weekly”, “please consider a donation at this time”.

Before you jump on me with this, can you honestly tell me this is not what Anderson’s wants?

I know it’s Congresses call but expect huge ridership drop off’s, more skewed facts, possible disregard for Congress and no 180 day train off notices with the backing of the Administration. Right now Anderson is boiling Amtrak like a frog in luke warm water

RPA is respected in Congress they need to start challenging Amtrak more. We more then likely will have a new administration in 2020 but what will be left of Amtrak in 18 months?


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## jiml

I don't want set myself up for a world of abuse, and like most others here I am saddened by the changes that have already happened and those further predicted here. However if one takes a step back to a more objective view of the transportation realities of 2019, this sort of makes sense. It's an airline model, and last time I looked Amtrak was run by an airline guy. The meal offerings (in domestic First Class) on airlines are totally based on distance travelled. Eastern routes tend to be shorter (<3 hours on plane, 1 overnight on train), whereas Western routes are much longer. That, and time of day, dictates what you're going to be fed. Of course coach passengers get nothing except what they purchase. For First Class, I'll use my airline of choice as an example: BOS - CHI, WAS - Florida or Toronto - DFW you get a meal. It consists of a drink, a packaged snack and something hot or cold served on a tray all-at-once. Fly from Chicago or Toronto to the west coast however and this increases to multiple drinks, hot nuts in a dish and a decent entrée with dessert served separately. Fly trans-continental (I did CLT-SFO last month) and the same airline adds tablecloths, appetizer course, entrée served on a china plate and hot fudge sundaes, along with a pre-arrival snack. I realize Amtrak doesn't do trans-continental, but if they did it might be the place to roll out the "red carpet" for premium guests.

Another question arises from the airline comparison - would members prefer "contemporary dining" to be replaced with airline tray meals, such as those served on Acela or VIA Rail corridor? I'm sure the cost must be similar, requiring only a change of sourcing.


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## MARC Rider

1. Whatever happens, be thankful they're not going the route of the Silver Star with no special food at all for sleeper passengers. 
2. The airlines (especially the budget carriers like Southwest, etc.) seem to be doing quite well without having ANY food service, even on long transcontinental fights. I can say from experience that going without a meal is a nuisance, but I can deal with it (and apparently, so can American airline passengers in general), especially if the alternative is not being able to take the trip at all.
3. Train trips are longer than flights, so I can see the need for SOME sort of food service, but it doesn't need to be the sit-down restaurant model. I'd be fine with tray meals like the airline meals of yore. They could even serve them in the dining cars, as this would probably be more efficient than trying to move through the train with meal carts. So you'd still have the dining car experience, of a sort.
4. As far as the complaints about the nutritional content of the meals served: I suspect that almost everything served up by the restaurant industry these days is overloaded with calories, fats, sugar, and salt. If it wasn't, most diners would complain about the taste of the food. I'm even including high-end dining on this one. I recall reading somewhere in one of Anthony Bourdain's books about the amount of butter chefs like to dump in their dishes. I like butter, but I know I'm taking risks with my coronary arteries when I eat out.
5. As far as the complaints about the meals not being cooked to order, welcome to the 21st century. Even your local neighborhood diner serves up stuff that's been cooked somewhere else. And any chain restaurant is even worse. It's unreasonable to expect cooked to order food at the prices they charge. (Remember, food service on a train has expenses that your local neighborhood diner doesn't have, so the same food on the train has to be more expensive.)
6. It's possible, once they eliminate restaurant style service, they could bring it back via outside contractors. Just because they were unsuccessful doing this before doesn't mean they won't succeed in the future. This has the advantage of taking food service off the books entirely.


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## TinCan782

SP&S said:


> Here ya go https://www.amtrakcascades.com/sites/default/files/AmtrakCascadesBistromenu_0.pdf


Cascades, Pacific Surfliner, etc. are state-financed trains and will provide the service and amenities they see fit...including the food service.


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## dlagrua

I believe info coming from the RPA. We have had the pleasure of having lunch with Jim Andrews and Jonsie Stone on the CL and they seem well versed as to what is going on at Amtrak and in the political arena. The only thing this means for us is that we will be taking less rail trips until the meal service improves. The current contemporary dining menu is so bad that the last time I had it I threw the entire box out. It was terrible. If my wife insists on another trip I'll just bring a good meal aboard and again throw that lousy crap in the garbage.


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## MARC Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Regarding the RPA, another nonchalant Friday update with this news.
> When are they going to call a spade, a spade and call out Amtrak management in front of Congress. Starting with Anderson and Gardner are incompetent and deceitful (obviously not in those exact words).
> 
> Fast forward 6 months from now the next nonchalant update very well could be, “we are disheartened to learn Amtrak is suspending 11 of the 15 national network trains, the 4 remaining will operate tri weekly, except the CA Zephyr which will be 1x weekly”, “please consider a donation at this time”.
> 
> Before you jump on me with this, can you honestly tell me this is not what Anderson’s wants?
> 
> I know it’s Congresses call but expect huge ridership drop off’s, more skewed facts, possible disregard for Congress and no 180 day train off notices with the backing of the Administration. Right now Anderson is boiling Amtrak like a frog in luke warm water
> 
> RPA is respected in Congress they need to start challenging Amtrak more. We more then likely will have a new administration in 2020 but what will be left of Amtrak in 18 months?



It's not just a question of what Mr. Anderson wants. it's a question of what Congress and the Administration want. The National Network is mostly a political sop to lawmakers in flyover country so that they'll support more necessary Amtrak service in other parts of the country. For example, the only place in the USA where passenger rail has a significant market share in intercity passenger transportation is the New York -Washington, and, to a lesser extent, the New York-Boston route. If I were Mr. Anderson, I'd want to put most of my effort trying to figure out how to replicate that in other parts of the country. It won't be easy, and Amtrak probably can't do it on its own, as it probably involves things like good intermodal connections, denser settlement patterns, interest of state and local governments and businesses, etc. It might even involve building new rail lines, as existing 19th century track routes may not go where people are living now. The vast majority of Amtrak passengers are taking trips of 500 miles or less, maybe even 300 miles or less. These passengers really don't care about fancy dining car service, so why should Amtrak's management?


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## jiml

MARC Rider makes excellent points above (in Post 32), particularly #'s 3, 5 and 6. Point #6 is the current VIA Rail Ocean model.


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## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> I believe info coming from the RPA. We have had the pleasure of having lunch with Jim Andrews and Jonsie Stone on the CL and they seem well versed as to what is going on at Amtrak and in the political arena. The only thing this means for us is that we will be taking less rail trips until the meal service improves. The current contemporary dining menu is so bad that the last time I had it I threw the entire box out. It was terrible. If my wife insists on another trip I'll just bring a good meal aboard and again throw that lousy crap in the garbage.


Rather than throw the box away, just don't take it if you don't want it. They're not forcing you to take it. Sheesh.


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## tim49424

AmtrakBlue said:


> Rather than throw the box away, just don't take it if you don't want it. They're not forcing you to take it. Sheesh.



My thoughts exactly. Why purposely waste food? Maybe somebody else might like it if you don’t want it. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.


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## jis

I had surmised as many as ten to fifteen years back that the evolving new norm in food service on trains will be food served at ones seat/compartment for upper class, and food available for purchase from a counter in lounge or table/buffet cars for the rest. In addition there may be a Restaurant/Diner Car for use by those that want to pay extra for the experience.

I had my head cut off and handed to me back then stating that while that may be what happens in the rest of the world, that will never happen in the US. I was willing to grant that with the rather minimal LD service in the US it may be feasible to eat the cost of fancier food service. Afterall, fifteen, or even twenty trains a day is not really that much to contend with. Well apparently not.

I will grant that my prognostication was based on what I saw unfold in India where prestigious luxury trains lost Restaurant Cars in the late '60s when they were substituted by Pantry Cars and at seat food service in all Sleepers and LD Chair Cars in those prestigious trains. The logic there was that Restaurant Cars were impractical for serving food to everyone in a 16-20 car train. Doing so would take two or three Restaurant/Kitchen car pairs (Indian Railways was operating AC Restaurant/Kitchen married pair of cars on the prestigious AC Express trains just prior to substitution by Pantry Car in late 1969, coincident with the introduction of the first Rajdhani Express, which never had Restaurant Car), and all that is potential capacity for additional passengers taken up by cars that provide a service that could be provided more efficiently. That made sense to almost everyone since demand of passenger capacity on trains so vastly outstrips supply in India. Again, I was willing to grant that demand is low in the US and trains are short, so Diners may survive.

Anyway, the latest in India is removal of Baggage Cars (checked baggage service was never popular in India when it was available anyway) and substituting a passenger carrying car for them. Platforms at present can hold upto 26 cars, and the preference is for stuffing as many cars carrying passengers as possible among those 26 cars. So they are down to two service cars Pantry and train staff, now with the progressive uniform removal of End on Generators and replacement of them by Head on Generation fed from the locomotive. Hopefully that won't come to pass in the US too.


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## amtrakpass

Although long expected, it is still sad for me to see Mr. Anderson and his cohorts getting their way as their goal to slowly dismantle the Amtrak network is realized. This was not mandated by Congress. It is just Anderson and Gardner and their disciples manipulating the legislation to suit their agenda. It is not just the dining car cuts. Think of how the Boston Lakeshore is not running again for most of the summer for CSX trackwork and Amtrak puts up no fight. Think of the extraordinarily high prices charged for sleeping car fares even in the winter when they are not full and only the maximum fare charged for an on board upgrade. Congress does not legislate fares. Amtrak charges what they want and it can have a great effect positive or negative on ridership numbers. They plainly do not want to run the trains or anything outside the corridor and state supported service if they could help it. Unless something changes, I see in a few years, almost all the LD's gone and maybe an additional train or two here and there like the Lynchburg extension. Along with vague promises of vastly expanded corridor services that never come to fruition. Maybe we will get one new corridor with 5 or six trains when 90% of the country will lose all service. Like another poster, I also had the chance to have lunch with RPA/NARP president Jim Matthews some years prior to the current administration. While he was cordial and knew Amtrak politics deeply, I have to say I came away with the distinct impression that he was not concerned about the regular Amtrak coach rider. He seemed happy going to meetings and conferences, and having insider info. He did like trains, so I am sure he is genuine but he also did not have much knowledge of actual railroad operations and I did not sense he wanted to learn. Although it was just one impression, I am not surprised to see RPA/NARP not put up a more vociferous opposition to Amtrak policy.


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## chrsjrcj

Looking at this more, this is probably a huge mistake for Amtrak.

On the Silver Meteor, 48.5% of passengers travel 500 miles or more. And while actual numbers aren't listed, it appears that a majority of those passengers are doing the journey in coach. Contrast to the Silver Star, where less than 1/3 of passengers are traveling more than 500 miles.

While we can debate "contemporary dining" vs conventional dining for sleeping car passengers, this change is going to be a huge loss for a majority of Silver Meteor passengers.


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## Rasputin

The joke continues. I am glad I am not afraid of flying but I am sorry for those who are.


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## bretton88

I do wonder if this means Amtrak has finished their modifications to the diners that they where supposedly doing. If they really did finish installing those heavy duty convection ovens, then the product that is coming might be much better than what the LSL and CL have had so far, as one of the issues holding back contemporary dining improvements was the very limited convection facilities on the current diners. It's a big reason why the hot meals kept running out on the LSL and CL.


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## jis

Do we have any reliable information from the likes of RPA on what proportion of Coach passengers on a train like the Meteor or Crescent actually use the Diner? I have heard all sorts of anecdotes, but coming to think of it, I have never seen any credible numbers presented by anyone. Would be even more useful to know how many had to be turned away due to lack of capacity to serve, but that might be tougher to come by. I know I have been turned away due to lack of capacity a few times, but again, that is anecdotal. I guess I will drop a note to Jim at RPA and see if they have anything (just did). Let's see what I get back.


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## spinnaker

I had Contemporary Dining for the first time on the CL this year. The food itself was much better then I expected (had the beef). Only a minor problem, the plate is just too darn small. If you are one of those people that does not like the different foods to touch on your plate, make other plans. 

While the food was rather good, the presentation leaved much to be desired. Something a bit strange about picking your food up in a box.

Speaking of the box. So I open a box meal. Inside was a ton of documentation, including a card describing their environmental friendly packaging. Just struck me as funny since that box all came inside another cardboard box. 

The young lady heating and assembling the meals was way overworked. That is a lot to do for so many passengers. Mine was almost a half hour late. Not a big deal if it were not for my 5AM arrival time and losing an hour sleep right out of the box. All I wanted to do was eat and get some sleep.


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## Maverickstation

jiml said:


> MARC Rider makes excellent points above (in Post 32), particularly #'s 3, 5 and 6. Point #6 is the current VIA Rail Ocean model.



However on The Ocean the food is provided by local caterers on both end points. The food itself is reheated on steam trays, plated on board, the diner has a full wait staff. 

Ken


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## Amtrakfflyer

bretton88 said:


> I do wonder if this means Amtrak has finished their modifications to the diners that they where supposedly doing. If they really did finish installing those heavy duty convection ovens, then the product that is coming might be much better than what the LSL and CL have had so far, as one of the issues holding back contemporary dining improvements was the very limited convection facilities on the current diners. It's a big reason why the hot meals kept running out on the LSL and CL.



If I was a betting man my bet would be on nothing’s been touched in the diners.


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## Rasputin

Amtrakfflyer said:


> If I was a betting man my bet would be on nothing’s been touched in the diners.


That would not surprise me. This move is not being done to enhance passenger experience (except perhaps bad experience).


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## Steve4031

jis said:


> I had surmised as many as ten to fifteen years back that the evolving new norm in food service on trains will be food served at ones seat/compartment for upper class, and food available for purchase from a counter in lounge or table/buffet cars for the rest. In addition there may be a Restaurant/Diner Car for use by those that want to pay extra for the experience.
> 
> I had my head cut off and handed to me back then stating that while that may be what happens in the rest of the world, that will never happen in the US. I was willing to grant that with the rather minimal LD service in the US it may be feasible to eat the cost of fancier food service. Afterall, fifteen, or even twenty trains a day is not really that much to contend with. Well apparently not.
> 
> I will grant that my prognostication was based on what I saw unfold in India where prestigious luxury trains lost Restaurant Cars in the late '60s when they were substituted by Pantry Cars and at seat food service in all Sleepers and LD Chair Cars in those prestigious trains. The logic there was that Restaurant Cars were impractical for serving food to everyone in a 16-20 car train. Doing so would take two or three Restaurant/Kitchen car pairs (Indian Railways was operating AC Restaurant/Kitchen married pair of cars on the prestigious AC Express trains just prior to substitution by Pantry Car in late 1969, coincident with the introduction of the first Rajdhani Express, which never had Restaurant Car), and all that is potential capacity for additional passengers taken up by cars that provide a service that could be provided more efficiently. That made sense to almost everyone since demand of passenger capacity on trains so vastly outstrips supply in India. Again, I was willing to grant that demand is low in the US and trains are short, so Diners may survive.
> 
> Anyway, the latest in India is removal of Baggage Cars (checked baggage service was never popular in India when it was available anyway) and substituting a passenger carrying car for them. Platforms at present can hold upto 26 cars, and the preference is for stuffing as many cars carrying passengers as possible among those 26 cars. So they are down to two service cars Pantry and train staff, now with the progressive uniform removal of End on Generators and replacement of them by Head on Generation fed from the locomotive. Hopefully that won't come to pass in the US too.



Jishnu,

Interesting observation comparing India operations with Amtrak. Iirc the longest train rides in India are generally 1 night and parts of preceding day and the next day for longer trips. The interesting thing is that food service was removed to increase capacity. How did Indian rail fans respond to this? How much was the food quality diminished? Was it in the same scale as what happened with the contemporary dining?


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Jishnu,
> 
> Interesting observation comparing India operations with Amtrak. Iirc the longest train rides in India are generally 1 night and parts of preceding day and the next day for longer trips. The interesting thing is that food service was removed to increase capacity. How did Indian rail fans respond to this? How much was the food quality diminished? Was it in the same scale as what happened with the contemporary dining?


No. The longest train rides are two nights and two days. India is a very big country. Not as big as the US, but still very big.
Food service was not removed in any cases. Delivery of food methodolgy was modified. Indian railfans were not hung up on having Restaurant Cars at all. They were more fixated on getting the particular diet that suited them at their seats if possible, and that is what they got. In some sense the food that they got out of the deal was no worse and sometimes better than before.

Remember very very few Indians had access to Restaurant Cars (only the Sahibs had access until independence), and even fewer could afford it even when they had access. So nothing was missed by 99.5% of the traveling public.

Food was traditionally provided on trains from en route kitchens at food service stations in most cases. Orders were taken from customers on the train several hours before meal time and they were telegraphed forward to the food service kitchen station. When the train arrived there food was served at each customer's seat as per their order. That was the way things were and mostly are. Pantry cars are for trains that do not stop much en route, which is a new thing post-independence. 

The other thing to keep in mind is that India lives on Tiffin Carriers and Dabbawallas. They are used to carrying food for their entire journey with them in Tiffin Carriers, specially if their dietary needs are not met adequately by what is available en route, and lord knows Indians have varied dietary requirements that no one except themselves can meet sometimes. 

So all in all a very different environment. But the economics of it all has some common threads. static kitchens will always be way way cheaper then kitchen on wheels, for example.


----------



## bretton88

Rasputin said:


> That would not surprise me. This move is not being done to enhance passenger experience (except perhaps bad experience).


I sense automatic negativity here The RPA was the source that mentioned the new convection ovens for the dining cars, so this didn't come from this air, something was being done. I'm just not sure if this means Amtrak has completed the modifications or enough of the modifications. The new ovens are supposed to do 24 meals at once compared to the 2 the old setup could do.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

That was the point of my earlier post concerning the RPA. I think they are being played by Amtrak’s management to a great extent. Someone with first hand knowledge should be able to verify modifications on some units at this point. As far as negativity Anderson’s actions have instilled a lot of it.


----------



## Rasputin

Amtrakfflyer said:


> That was the point of my earlier post concerning the RPA. I think they are being played by Amtrak’s management to a great extent. Someone with first hand knowledge should be able to verify modifications on some units at this point. As far as negativity Anderson’s actions have instilled a lot of it.


I quite agree. There is really no reason for optimism regarding this foolishness.


----------



## Steve4031

jis said:


> No. The longest train rides are two nights and two days. India is a very big country. Not as big as the US, but still very big.
> Food service was not removed in any cases. Delivery of food methodolgy was modified. Indian railfans were not hung up on having Restaurant Cars at all. They were more fixated on getting the particular diet that suited them at their seats if possible, and that is what they got. In some sense the food that they got out of the deal was no worse and sometimes better than before.
> 
> Remember very very few Indians had access to Restaurant Cars (only the Sahibs had access until independence), and even fewer could afford it even when they had access. So nothing was missed by 99.5% of the traveling public.
> 
> Food was traditionally provided on trains from en route kitchens at food service stations in most cases. Orders were taken from customers on the train several hours before meal time and they were telegraphed forward to the food service kitchen station. When the train arrived there food was served at each customer's seat as per their order. That was the way things were and mostly are. Pantry cars are for trains that do not stop much en route, which is a new thing post-independence.
> 
> The other thing to keep in mind is that India lives on Tiffin Carriers and Dabbawallas. They are used to carrying food for their entire journey with them in Tiffin Carriers, specially if their dietary needs are not met adequately by what is available en route, and lord knows Indians have varied dietary requirements that no one except themselves can meet sometimes.
> 
> So all in all a very different environment. But the economics of it all has some common threads. static kitchens will always be way way cheaper then kitchen on wheels, for example.



Thank you. I was not aware that some of the trains operated for two nights. The demographics of dining car customers and focus on certain diets was interesting too. Amtrak’s logistics are no where near as complicated as India’s.


----------



## lordsigma

I feel bad for the crews on the Crescent and Meteor - I have dealt with some great severs on both trains and sad to hear they will all be losing their jobs. Though not surprising if you readthe 5 year plans. This seems to be the reality for the one night trains - though I wouldn’t assume it will happen to the two nighters as the five year plans directly acknowledge the differences in the two night routes as far as food service. I actually think they’d like to have a more premium product on the Zephyr, Builder, and Starlight. But I think it’s a big mistake particular on the Meteor and Crescent which have both seen improved ridership this year.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Well I guess this answers my question. I came to the forum today to ask for advice on which direction I should plan my late September-early October trip from NY, going in a circle to Chicago and NOLA, then back again.

Looks like if I want to enjoy the last of the dining car experience, I will obviously want to take the Crescent first, during the last week in September to NOLA, then try to squeeze in the City of New Orleans before 9/30 up to Chicago. Since the LSL will be same-old same-old anyway, may as well leave that for last and roll in back home to Rhinecliff some time before Columbus Day.

Interestingly, none of these changes are reflected in the room and roomette pricing, at least per amsnag.


----------



## spinnaker

Winecliff Station said:


> Interestingly, none of these changes are reflected in the room and roomette pricing, at least per amsnag.




Why should they cut the price? You are now getting Contemporary Dining. First it was Fresh Choices. When no one imagined it could get any better they came out with Contemporary Dining. Sounds mighty awesome.


----------



## lordsigma

They better have more choices and better stocking of the meals for the upcoming expansion.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Might have to get creative with buying some prepared meals at grocery stores, since I am not a fan of cold box food.... I use one of these at work:

https://hotlogicmini.com


----------



## lordsigma

Winecliff Station said:


> Might have to get creative with buying some prepared meals at grocery stores, since I am not a fan of cold box food.... I use one of these at work:
> 
> https://hotlogicmini.com


Well they are at least not cold anymore - just one option is.


----------



## Winecliff Station

With my luck, probably the vegetarian option


----------



## lordsigma

Winecliff Station said:


> With my luck, probably the vegetarian option



Vegetarian meal is hot. It’s an Asian noodle bowl - you can get it served cold if you prefer but if it was me I’d certainly get it hot.


----------



## NativeSon5859

A natural progression, I guess. No one should be surprised. 

While this would absolutely be an overall meal service improvement on the CONO - the train I probably take the most - it’s a big downgrade for the Crescent, which I also ride often.

Will have try to squeeze in one last ride on the full service Crescent. 

Still - I’ll keep on riding the trains as long as they keep running...


----------



## lordsigma

chrsjrcj said:


> Looking at this more, this is probably a huge mistake for Amtrak.
> 
> On the Silver Meteor, 48.5% of passengers travel 500 miles or more. And while actual numbers aren't listed, it appears that a majority of those passengers are doing the journey in coach. Contrast to the Silver Star, where less than 1/3 of passengers are traveling more than 500 miles.
> 
> While we can debate "contemporary dining" vs conventional dining for sleeping car passengers, this change is going to be a huge loss for a majority of Silver Meteor passengers.



Yes the silver meteor could be the big make or break. It has a more substantial portion of true long distance customers than many other LD trains and a decent sleeper business. Coach is cut out completely and sleeper downgrade. The question is will they admit it if this causes ridership to drop or will they just say people aren’t riding it anymore.


----------



## lordsigma

NativeSon5859 said:


> A natural progression, I guess. No one should be surprised.
> 
> While this would absolutely be an overall meal service improvement on the CONO - the train I probably take the most - it’s a big downgrade for the Crescent, which I also ride often.
> 
> Will have try to squeeze in one last ride on the full service Crescent.
> 
> Still - I’ll keep on riding the trains as long as they keep running...



I was hoping the announcement would be that they are doing the CONO and Cardinal as the next step to standardize the lightweight services offered among the trains rather than downgrading the crescent and silver meteor.

I’ll still ride - the diner isn’t the only part of the experience for me and I detest flying. But still disappointing....but then again the most common LD train I ride is the AT and it sounds like that isn’t affected.


----------



## pennyk

lordsigma said:


> Vegetarian meal is hot. It’s an Asian noodle bowl - you can get it served cold if you prefer but if it was me I’d certainly get it hot.


I assume we are talking about the same meal. When I had it on train 48 in March, the noodle bowl was the vegan option and it was served cold. I was not given the option to have it heated. I ate the noodle bowl, without the sauce (since the sauce contains many ingredients I do not eat), using olive oil instead of the sauce in the box.


----------



## lordsigma

tim49424 said:


> I do believe the CONO will be affected as they are, I believe, considered an Eastern train. The most drastic changes will come to the Auto Train, Crescent and Silver Meteor which have the general Long Distance menu. I am not going to speculate about when (if) the Western trains will institute the “contemporary dining”. I’m putting my trust in the RPA where that matter is concerned. All I’ll say for now is I’ll continue riding the train, east or west even if it all gets changed. I’m not even sure where the deal breaker lies for me.



Auto train sounds like it’s not included AND it doesn’t have the general LD menu these days. Auto train entrees are actually somewhat similar to what’s offered on contemporary dining and Acela first, but it is served to you on plates with rolls and you get dessert and salads like on the full diners - everything is preprepared before getting to the train and just heated up on AT similar to contemporary dining I think. It’s probably the closest “light weight” diner to a full diner Amtrak has. AT getting contemporary would really more affect the presentation but they could probably still serve the same exact entrees they do now.


----------



## TinCan782

Already resigned to the fact that I'll have "contemporary dining" on the LSL this fall but now, getting it on the Crescent as well. Oh well. At least a good part of the trip is on western LD trains.


----------



## lordsigma

pennyk said:


> I assume we are talking about the same meal. When I had it on train 48 in March, the noodle bowl was the vegan option and it was served cold. I was not given the option to have it heated. I ate the noodle bowl, without the sauce (since the sauce contains many ingredients I do not eat), using olive oil instead of the sauce in the box.



That’s odd the way it was being advertised is that you could get it hot, and on reviews on here people were asked if they wanted it cold or hot. Could be your LSA that particular day just didn’t offer it - not good service if that’s the case.

I really don’t understand why Amtrak just can’t model the contemporary service off of Acela first - use the same rotating meals offered on Acela First and try to bring back a bit nicer presentation. Acela First is usually pretty decent and you don’t hear too many complaints about the service offered on it. (At least I haven’t)


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Winecliff Station said:


> Might have to get creative with buying some prepared meals at grocery stores, since I am not a fan of cold box food.... I use one of these at work:
> 
> https://hotlogicmini.com


Now that's a neat looking container/cooker! My only concern for use on the train is the voltage draw; could it trip the car's breakers?


----------



## Chessie

Wow, my upcoming SM trip is on Sep 30th. Wonder if they remove the dining car after the arrival.


----------



## bretton88

Does the Acela use Aramark for it's food service? I think the LD system has a different catering contract than the NEC does. That might explain the difference.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Chessie said:


> Wow, my upcoming SM trip is on Sep 30th. Wonder if they remove the dining car after the arrival.


The dining cars will continue to operate; they will just be utilized differently.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> and I detest flying



Just curious as to why? I’ve gotten more used to flying than I ever thought I would. First class on delta isn’t anymore than a sleeper and is a pretty decent product. 

I’m pretty sad I reached the tipping point with Amtrak. I loved taking the train so much.... but enough was finally enough for the LD trains. I’ll try to take the crescent with a full diner one last time.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> Just curious as to why? I’ve gotten more used to flying than I ever thought I would. First class on delta isn’t anymore than a sleeper and is a pretty decent product.
> 
> I’m pretty sad I reached the tipping point with Amtrak. I loved taking the train so much.... but enough was finally enough for the LD trains. I’ll try to take the crescent with a full diner one last time.


I agree. I wonder if I complain and request full refund on my October trip on the Crescent if I can get a full refund so we can fly First Class instead. The high prices combined with ever deteriorating onboard experiences has made it difficult to go to the Northeast on the Crescent. Amtrak should allow that as the advertised service will be changing Did they offer that when the other trains dumped regular dining?


----------



## Winecliff Station

pennyk said:


> I assume we are talking about the same meal. When I had it on train 48 in March, the noodle bowl was the vegan option and it was served cold. I was not given the option to have it heated. I ate the noodle bowl, without the sauce (since the sauce contains many ingredients I do not eat), using olive oil instead of the sauce in the box.



This was my experience on the Maple Leaf as well as Empire cafe cars between Syracuse and Albany. I didn't think to ask about it being heated, the attendant simply said it comes cold when I asked about it. So it was another mac n cheese night for me


----------



## Winecliff Station

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Now that's a neat looking container/cooker! My only concern for use on the train is the voltage draw; could it trip the car's breakers?



I don't think so.... the outlets have a rating on them which I can't recall at the moment, and I know my mini flatiron, which gets a lot hotter, is under that rating. I'll have to check next time I'm on the train, which is Wednesday.


----------



## Winecliff Station

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> The dining cars will continue to operate; they will just be utilized differently.



This is what I was wondering, like chessie said, if I get on the Crescent on 9/30 in NY, I get one traditional dining car dinner and then the next morning I wake up to box breakfast and then box lunch?


----------



## Winecliff Station

NativeSon5859 said:


> A natural progression, I guess. No one should be surprised.
> 
> While this would absolutely be an overall meal service improvement on the CONO - the train I probably take the most - it’s a big downgrade for the Crescent, which I also ride often.
> 
> Will have try to squeeze in one last ride on the full service Crescent.
> 
> Still - I’ll keep on riding the trains as long as they keep running...



Do you mean CONO north or south? Maybe I read the menus wrong but it looked like one direction was better than the other.


----------



## NativeSon5859

Winecliff Station said:


> Do you mean CONO north or south? Maybe I read the menus wrong but it looked like one direction was better than the other.



IMO, either direction.

The boxed meals I’ve had on the LSL and CL were far and away better than anything I’ve had on 58/59 since the food service was curtailed a couple of years back.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Just curious as to why? I’ve gotten more used to flying than I ever thought I would. First class on delta isn’t anymore than a sleeper and is a pretty decent product.
> 
> I’m pretty sad I reached the tipping point with Amtrak. I loved taking the train so much.... but enough was finally enough for the LD trains. I’ll try to take the crescent with a full diner one last time.



I pretty much detest everything about it - in addition to not liking it generally (I am somewhat afraid of flying also - I understand the irrationality and I have made myself fly in the past - but the experience comes with huge amounts of anxiety preceding the flight for days and I just prefer not to put myself through it unless it’s absolutely necessary such as going overseas), the vast majority of flights out of my local airport to the places I go are lower cost carriers like Southwest and Spirit- IE cattle car, zero legroom stuffed in like a sardine and I detest Southwest’s herding cattle boarding procedure- if anything I’d go back to just driving over flying. I still enjoy traveling in sleepers enough that I will continue - and for the most common train I take, the auto train, it still has the unique convenience of carrying my vehicle. I understand that it can sometimes affect change by boycotting out of principle, but to me if I just out of principal never ride an Amtrak long distance train again that just caves to that narrative of Amtrak should only operate in short haul corridors - a narrative which I don’t support.


----------



## Rasputin

Chessie said:


> Wow, my upcoming SM trip is on Sep 30th. Wonder if they remove the dining car after the arrival.


No. All but one crew member will be liquidated upon arrival and the car will be turned into a table car before the next trip.


----------



## Rasputin

NativeSon5859 said:


> The boxed meals I’ve had on the LSL and CL were far and away better than anything I’ve had on 58/59 since the food service was curtailed a couple of years back.



I may be in the minority but on our trip in May I found the food on 58 to be noticeably better than the crazy dining food on the Lake Shore. Of course that is still not saying much. Both leave a lot to be desired.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> Vegetarian meal is hot. It’s an Asian noodle bowl - you can get it served cold if you prefer but if it was me I’d certainly get it hot.


I'm surprised vegetarians think like that. I thought they picked fruits and vegetables live from the plant and eat them even before they die! You don't find carnivores ripping the t-bone out of the cow while it's still alive. Only a few weirdo carnivores go into that when they call it with one of those foreign-sounding words - tartare.

We learn something new every day! Wow!


----------



## jis

redacted


----------



## tricia

me_little_me said:


> I agree. I wonder if I complain and request full refund on my October trip on the Crescent if I can get a full refund so we can fly First Class instead. The high prices combined with ever deteriorating onboard experiences has made it difficult to go to the Northeast on the Crescent. Amtrak should allow that as the advertised service will be changing Did they offer that when the other trains dumped regular dining?



If you do ask for a refund, please post here how that goes. Thanks!


----------



## Winecliff Station

me_little_me said:


> I'm surprised vegetarians think like that. I thought they picked fruits and vegetables live from the plant and eat them even before they die! You don't find carnivores ripping the t-bone out of the cow while it's still alive. Only a few weirdo carnivores go into that when they call it with one of those foreign-sounding words - tartare.
> 
> We learn something new every day! Wow!



Me personally, I only eat from dead Asian noodle trees. Some companies like Ronzoni harvest their pastas from live ones. It was even in a commerical back in the 70's.


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> I'm surprised vegetarians think like that. I thought they picked fruits and vegetables live from the plant and eat them even before they die! You don't find carnivores ripping the t-bone out of the cow while it's still alive. Only a few weirdo carnivores go into that when they call it with one of those foreign-sounding words - tartare.
> 
> We learn something new every day! Wow!



Well I didn’t say I was a vegetarian - but if I was going to eat a noodle bowl I’d have it hot.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I am somewhat afraid of flying also - I understand the irrationality and I have made myself fly in the past - but the experience comes with huge amounts of anxiety preceding the flight for days and I just prefer not to put myself through it unless it’s absolutely necessary such as going overseas), the vast majority of flights out of my local airport to the places I go are lower cost carriers like Southwest and Spirit- IE cattle car, zero legroom stuffed in like a sardine and I detest Southwest’s herding cattle boarding procedure-



The fear I get and totally understand. Reducing stress and anxiety is an important part of life! 

I actually really like southwest in general, I just wish they had an extra fare 2x2 seating. 

I need to travel by sleeper again soon... I do miss it.


----------



## Rasputin

My travel anxiety is usually caused by 448 and whether it will be operated efficiently and reasonably on time so that we will arrive in Boston before public transportation closes for the night and we end up spending the night on a bench at South Station (which has happened more than once). 

On our next trip we will be taking 449 and 5 west but will fly back. Amtrak management has now downgraded service on 448 sufficiently (poor food, no checked baggage, horrible delays at times, outright cancellation of the train at other times) so that I will now have few regrets about missing the train coming back. My congratulations to Anderson and Gardner. You have got your wish and have caused this veteran train rider to actually look forward to his flight (kind of a double entendre I guess).


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> The fear I get and totally understand. Reducing stress and anxiety is an important part of life!
> 
> I actually really like southwest in general, I just wish they had an extra fare 2x2 seating.
> 
> I need to travel by sleeper again soon... I do miss it.



I had a great experience on the Crescent last year and decent on the Meteor this year - the diner crew on last years Crescent trip stood out as outstanding and friendly - this announcement makes me unhappy that they will be out of a job soon. I guess all we can do is hope that this expanded version of the contemporary program will come with some improvements to the presentation and choices.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Yeah.... if you chase off the people that actually like riding trains, eventually when you say “no one rides trains anymore” you’ll be right.


----------



## OBS

Winecliff Station said:


> This is what I was wondering, like chessie said, if I get on the Crescent on 9/30 in NY, I get one traditional dining car dinner and then the next morning I wake up to box breakfast and then box lunch?


Trains generally complete their trip under whatever menu/system they had in use departing the originating station.


----------



## Winecliff Station

OBS said:


> Trains generally complete their trip under whatever menu/system they had in use departing the originating station.



That was my hope, but the more I read about cutting services lately the less likely I am to the assume the common sense answer over the penny-pinching one, so thanks for the clarification


----------



## bretton88

It's a little bit of a mixed bag here. On one hand it's a potential downgrade for the SM and Crescent. On the other hand these meals are better than what the CONO has had for years and better than most of what the Cardinal serves up. The Star we assume will be unchanged, possibly with some cafe menu upgrades. So really this is a standardization of the product across the Amtrak Eastern system. The big question is, will the Cardinal get a full diner in this? In which case it's a big win for Cardinal passengers.


----------



## Rasputin

bretton88 said:


> It's a little bit of a mixed bag here. On one hand it's a potential downgrade for the SM and Crescent. On the other hand these meals are better than what the CONO has had for years and better than most of what the Cardinal serves up. The Star we assume will be unchanged, possibly with some cafe menu upgrades. So really this is a standardization of the product across the Amtrak Eastern system. The big question is, will the Cardinal get a full diner in this? In which case it's a big win for Cardinal passengers.


I think it is a real downgrade. Nothing potential about it.


----------



## jis

Winecliff Station said:


> That was my hope, but the more I read about cutting services lately the less likely I am to the assume the common sense answer over the penny-pinching one, so thanks for the clarification


There is actually alignment between the common sense answer and the penny-pinching one in this case


----------



## Seaboard92

It’s just the regular capitalist stand point. We can do more with less. It stinks but I don’t have any fight left in me to fight this. I’ve been fighting this administration tooth and nail since April of 2018 and I just can’t keep it up. 

That’s the other big problem there are so many things to fight that we just get tired of fighting. I will email Richard and Stephen however.


----------



## seat38a

I mentioned this in one of the other threads regarding rude Amtrak staff. Many on here have been advocating through the years to call in and complain about the staff, food etc in the dining car, well I'm sure Anderson will eventually come out and use those complaints as justification for all of this. People used to complain about the free food in domestic coach and now those are gone. The airlines justified it by saying people complained that the food sucked.

Generally complaining in corporate America, will not improve things, just gives it an excuse to save cost by cutting it.

*Complaint: Your staff are rude and apathetic.*
Anderson: Due to high number of complaints over the years regarding our dining car staff, we decided eliminate any interaction with the dining car staff going forward. blah blah blah.

*Complaint: The lounge lizards from coach and crew are taking up all the space in the cafe car.*
Anderson: Due to the high number of complaints from sleeping car passengers that our lounge car is overcrowded, we decided to dedicate the dining car 100% for our sleeping car passengers. No coach passengers allowed.

*Complaint: Your dining car prices are too high for coach passengers.*
Anderson: No worries, we will no longer have a dining car for the price conscious passengers to worry about.

Etc etc etc.


----------



## Chessie

Rasputin said:


> No. All but one crew member will be liquidated upon arrival and the car will be turned into a table car before the next trip.



Are you saying all but one crew member will lose their jobs?


----------



## Rasputin

Chessie said:


> Are you saying all but one crew member will lose their jobs?


That is what I assume. That certainly appears to be what happened with the Lake Shore when it went to contemporary dining. (I assume it is the same with the Capitol but I haven't been that train.) Only one employee needed to run the (dining)(lounge)(table) car or whatever those multi-million dollar dining cars are called now.


----------



## spinnaker

Rasputin said:


> That is what I assume. That certainly appears to be what happened with the Lake Shore when it went to contemporary dining. (I assume it is the same with the Capitol but I haven't been that train.) Only one employee needed to run the (dining)(lounge)(table) car or whatever those multi-million dollar dining cars are called now.



In my one and only experience with "contemporary dining", it seems to me more than one employee is needed to "prepare" the meals in a timely fashion. The employee I noticed seemed to be over her head.

There was actually a second employee but she seemed to be working the tables. I am not exactly sure what her function was as I did not stay in the car. I took my meal to my roomette.


----------



## Rasputin

spinnaker said:


> In my one and only experience with "contemporary dining", it seems to me more than one employee is needed to "prepare" the meals in a timely fashion. The employee I noticed seemed to be over her head.
> 
> There was actually a second employee but she seemed to be working the tables. I am not exactly sure what her function was as I did not stay in the car. I took my meal to my roomette.


On our trip on the Lake Shore in May, there seemed to be only one person doing it all. This didn't seem to be a problem at breakfast because the patronage was spread out but at lunch everyone seemed to come at once and she was a bit overwhelmed.


----------



## me_little_me

seat38a said:


> I mentioned this in one of the other threads regarding rude Amtrak staff. Many on here have been advocating through the years to call in and complain about the staff, food etc in the dining car, well I'm sure Anderson will eventually come out and use those complaints as justification for all of this. People used to complain about the free food in domestic coach and now those are gone. The airlines justified it by saying people complained that the food sucked.
> 
> Generally complaining in corporate America, will not improve things, just gives it an excuse to save cost by cutting it.
> 
> *Complaint: Your staff are rude and apathetic.*
> Anderson: Due to high number of complaints over the years regarding our dining car staff, we decided eliminate any interaction with the dining car staff going forward. blah blah blah.
> 
> *Complaint: The lounge lizards from coach and crew are taking up all the space in the cafe car.*
> Anderson: Due to the high number of complaints from sleeping car passengers that our lounge car is overcrowded, we decided to dedicate the dining car 100% for our sleeping car passengers. No coach passengers allowed.
> 
> *Complaint: Your dining car prices are too high for coach passengers.*
> Anderson: No worries, we will no longer have a dining car for the price conscious passengers to worry about.
> 
> Etc etc etc.


You forgot some:
*Complaint: Your staff use multiple tables in the cafe car.*
Anderson: Due to high number of complaints about this, we're reducing staff by eliminating dining personnel. We removed station agents already so they don't apply for those kind of positions on the trains.

*Complaint: Your cafe food always runs out.*
Anderson: We're considering cutting back on cafe hours which will allow us to eliminate those employee slots and have car attendants do that job on a shorter part-time basis. This way fewer hours mean fewer items will be sold so we don't run out of food. If there are enough complaints about the reduced hours, we'll consider removing the cafe car altogether. Thanks for the great idea.

*Complaint: Only a few stations have baggage handling.*
Anderson: We plan to eliminate baggage handling completely and thus eliminate the half-empty baggage cars as well as the remainder of the station agents. We might also be able to eliminate some conductor positions since they won't have to worry about baggage or baggage cars. However, to increase the passenger experience, we'll let them load all their baggage at all stations but charge a small handling fee for the opportunity.


----------



## iplaybass

I can survive the contemporary dining on the CL at dinner-even it means an early dinner from something prepared in the station or a just-in-time pizza delivery in Chicago.

But breakfast was gross last year. Has that changed?


----------



## Willbridge

dogbert617 said:


> If that's true about Amtrak Cascades having some special items in its cafe car not served on other Amtrak regional trains, I'd love to see the cafe car menu for that train. Now makes me wonder if i.e. Pacific Surfliner has any special cafe car food items served only on that train, not available on other Amtrak regional(or long distance) trains?



From the Amtrak Cascades website:
https://www.amtrakcascades.com/sites/default/files/AmtrakCascadesBistromenu_0.pdf

From the Pacific Surfliner website:
https://blog.pacificsurfliner.com/2...es-salads-and-bistro-boxes-available-onboard/

.. .. .. and the PS article was illustrated with a nice photo of one of the Superliners that they've scored.


----------



## dogbert617

Willbridge said:


> From the Amtrak Cascades website:
> https://www.amtrakcascades.com/sites/default/files/AmtrakCascadesBistromenu_0.pdf
> 
> From the Pacific Surfliner website:
> https://blog.pacificsurfliner.com/2...es-salads-and-bistro-boxes-available-onboard/
> 
> .. .. .. and the PS article was illustrated with a nice photo of one of the Superliners that they've scored.



Looking at that page for Pacific Surfliner, I found this pdf of its cafe car menu(and interesting you can buy LA or San Diego transit passes in that cafe area): https://pacificsurfliner.files.word...afe_wall-menu_16.75x12.6875_fnl_preview-1.pdf

I wish the Pacific Surfliner menu, had more info on some of the unique items only served on that train. Plus I REALLY liked seeing that one, for the Cascades. That seems so much better, than the cafe car menus I've seen for Illinois regional Amtrak trains, and as I vaguely remember Michigan trains. Been a couple of years since I last rode a Michigan Amtrak train, so dunno if Amtrak and Michigan DOT have done any minor efforts to improve its cafe car menu(probably not I suspect).

However, that detail on Cascades' menu was weird about it only accepting Canadian bills, but not coins. Really? Seems weird you can't use both bills and coins, to pay for purchases. Though I assume a Canadian passenger would be fine, as long as they had some sort of card on them to pay for purchases.


----------



## Willbridge

dogbert617 said:


> Looking at that page for Pacific Surfliner, I found this pdf of its cafe car menu(and interesting you can buy LA or San Diego transit passes in that cafe area): https://pacificsurfliner.files.word...afe_wall-menu_16.75x12.6875_fnl_preview-1.pdf
> 
> I wish the Pacific Surfliner menu, had more info on some of the unique items only served on that train. Plus I REALLY liked seeing that one, for the Cascades. That seems so much better, than the cafe car menus I've seen for Illinois regional Amtrak trains, and as I vaguely remember Michigan trains. Been a couple of years since I last rode a Michigan Amtrak train, so dunno if Amtrak and Michigan DOT have done any minor efforts to improve its cafe car menu(probably not I suspect).
> 
> However, that detail on Cascades' menu was weird about it only accepting Canadian bills, but not coins. Really? Seems weird you can't use both bills and coins, to pay for purchases. Though I assume a Canadian passenger would be fine, as long as they had some sort of card on them to pay for purchases.


It's sad, but banks won't accept Canadian coins. When I was a kid they circulated widely in Oregon and Washington.

Right from the start (1973/75) of planning for the Cascades corridor we assumed good food. It came to me when I was in the diner on Train 11 on a state business trip, the sun was setting (on the original schedule) and we were rolling through some of the best food farmland in America and being served generic items and packaged stuff from elsewhere. I think everyone who worked on the idea after me thought of the same thing.


----------



## dogbert617

Willbridge said:


> It's sad, but banks won't accept Canadian coins. When I was a kid they circulated widely in Oregon and Washington.
> 
> Right from the start (1973/75) of planning for the Cascades corridor we assumed good food. It came to me when I was in the diner on Train 11 on a state business trip, the sun was setting (on the original schedule) and we were rolling through some of the best food farmland in America and being served generic items and packaged stuff from elsewhere. I think everyone who worked on the idea after me thought of the same thing.



Gotcha, on Canadian coins. That's weird many banks choose not to accept those, vs. the Canadian bills! And one more thing I saw on that Pacific Surfliner food menu pdf after I first read it, when I reread it one more time before typing this new comment: that the Surfliner trains do serve beef and chicken tamales! I wish more Amtrak trains(national long distance and regional), would serve tamales. At least the long distance dining cars do have chilaquiles as a lunch menu item, which is nice! And yep I did order that, for one of my lunches while riding the Empire Builder recently. Sorry for the delay posting that trip report, I want to post some pics from my Cardinal trip on that thread, before I start typing my EB trip report.


----------



## Chessie

I am still surprised CL lost its dining car sooner than some others. Always thought of CL as the flagship train of the east side of Mississippi, if you will, connecting DC to Chicago. Amtrak would want to make a good impression on politicians who might fancy a LD ride.


----------



## seat38a

dogbert617 said:


> Looking at that page for Pacific Surfliner, I found this pdf of its cafe car menu(and interesting you can buy LA or San Diego transit passes in that cafe area): https://pacificsurfliner.files.word...afe_wall-menu_16.75x12.6875_fnl_preview-1.pdf
> 
> I wish the Pacific Surfliner menu, had more info on some of the unique items only served on that train. Plus I REALLY liked seeing that one, for the Cascades. That seems so much better, than the cafe car menus I've seen for Illinois regional Amtrak trains, and as I vaguely remember Michigan trains. Been a couple of years since I last rode a Michigan Amtrak train, so dunno if Amtrak and Michigan DOT have done any minor efforts to improve its cafe car menu(probably not I suspect).
> 
> However, that detail on Cascades' menu was weird about it only accepting Canadian bills, but not coins. Really? Seems weird you can't use both bills and coins, to pay for purchases. Though I assume a Canadian passenger would be fine, as long as they had some sort of card on them to pay for purchases.



Read their blog post: https://blog.pacificsurfliner.com/2...es-salads-and-bistro-boxes-available-onboard/

Accepting foreign bills but not coins is a common thing worldwide. Most currency exchanges won't accept coins and will not give you coins back. Most airport duty free will not give change back nor accept foreign coins as well.


----------



## Winecliff Station

iplaybass said:


> I can survive the contemporary dining on the CL at dinner-even it means an early dinner from something prepared in the station or a just-in-time pizza delivery in Chicago.
> 
> But breakfast was gross last year. Has that changed?



Does contemporary dining include the option of getting something from the cafe car if you’re in a sleeper? It would make sense if the cost is comparable.


----------



## lordsigma

Winecliff Station said:


> Does contemporary dining include the option of getting something from the cafe car if you’re in a sleeper? It would make sense if the cost is comparable.



I don’t think so - but maybe that will be a change as part of the announcement? Another way they could do it is just stock some of the same cafe car items (or similar items) in the diner for sleeper passengers that want lighter fare - then that would leave more food in the cafe car for the coach passengers who cannot get the box meals - especially as the crescent and silver meteor have lunch meals where someone may not want one of the larger box meals.


----------



## jiml

Willbridge said:


> It's sad, but banks won't accept Canadian coins. When I was a kid they circulated widely in Oregon and Washington.


The same is true in reverse. It's not unusual to get US coins in change here for that reason - vendors try to unload them rather than taking them to the bank. With the American dollar currently much higher we tend to separate them and save them for travel. 10-12 years ago, when the currencies were last even, there was a lot of US change floating around.


----------



## lordsigma

Well I just noticed this on the Amtrak food page that would seem to confirm that the coach dining service is coming off the Auto Train....the question is - is it going to be replaced by anything - or will coach passengers have the option of purchasing a meal in the sleeper diner? On the link below notice under Auto Train coach menu: Available until January 14, 2020.

https://www.amtrak.com/dining-car

Perhaps they believe this cut will push the Auto Train to break even (by Amtrak accounting standards) and that the cut will make up in reduced expenses any ridership reductions...but I would only see that happening if this came with a reduction in coach fares and/or vehicle fares.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Seaboard92 said:


> It’s just the regular capitalist stand point. We can do more with less. It stinks but I don’t have any fight left in me to fight this. I’ve been fighting this administration tooth and nail since April of 2018 and I just can’t keep it up.
> 
> That’s the other big problem there are so many things to fight that we just get tired of fighting. I will email Richard and Stephen however.



While I can appreciate your feelings on the current regime, the food and beverage situation is not their doing. Your email should or to Congress, not Mr. Anderson or Mr. Gardner.

I'd like to remind people of post I made in the Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL just over a year ago regarding  Amtrak's food and beverage mandate and the FAST ACT of 2015

At the end of that post ,I stated



> This law was passed in 2015 and it is 2018. They have two years to comply with this law as written.



It is now 2019. Unless their is relief from that provision, Amtrak's F&B services must cover its costs by December 4th, 2020.

To be clear, I consider Contemporary Service a downgrade. That is because unlike the Silver Star, the prices didn't drop for the sleepers. However, Contemporary Service might be the final stand to cover the costs of providing the service.

Unless we want all trains to end up like the Star or even worse, the Keystones, something needs to be done.


----------



## jis

For the last two years I have tried to get RPA to engage on the matter of rescinding the FAST Act language with Congress, but to no avail. I don’t understand their logic. Apparently there is a firm belief that one can just pick and choose which part of the law one should expect to be implemented and act dismayed if the actual implementer chooses a part that you didn’t like, and the moan about it occasionally. [emoji53]


----------



## Skyline

Regarding Canadian coinage:

In 2017, I stayed a few days in Toronto, took the Canadian to Vancouver, spent two days, then a Cascades to Seattle. As you can imagine, I accumulated a pocketful of Canadian loonies and toonies.

During my last day in Vancouver and on board the Cascades, I used those coins exclusively as cash tips (even if paying for food or anything else by CC). By the time I was at King Street Station, no longer an issue.


----------



## toddinde

I’ve been around long enough to remember the early ‘80s where Amtrak went to airline style meals served in the diner. This is pretty bad, and the news out of Amtrak headquarters seems for all the world like a repeat of railroad announcements from the late ‘60s. Late trains, no dining cars, an ambivalence to the passenger. It would be creative discouragement if patronage if it weren’t right out of the Southern Pacific/Penn Central playbook. It’s like Anderson is telling Congress, “ok, if you make me run these trains, I’m going to make it as unpleasant as possible.” I try to look at things from Anderson’s perspective, and hope for the best, but I can’t. There are all manner of ways that better food service could have been delivered to all passengers, at lower cost, without making the experience miserable. We need to focus on keeping the trains running until new management comes in.


----------



## Rasputin

Winecliff Station said:


> Does contemporary dining include the option of getting something from the cafe car if you’re in a sleeper? It would make sense if the cost is comparable.


I have a friend who periodically travels on the Boston section of the Lake Shore and he has been able to get a selection from the café car when he finds the contemporary selections unacceptable. It probably depends on the whims of the particular employees who are working that trip but maybe Amtrak has an actual policy on it.


----------



## cpotisch

Hi, y'all. I'm just so disappointed by this news that I finally took the time to write and send the following letter to Anderson, Gardner, and Coscia yesterday. I don't think it will make any difference, but at least I can feel like I'm doing _something._

_Dear Mr. Anderson, Mr. Gardner, Mr. Coscia and Amtrak Board of Directors_

_My name is Coby Potischman. I am a 17-year-old avid rail fan from New York City and a longtime advocate for Amtrak, as well as a member of the Rail Passenger Association. I am incredibly concerned and disheartened by all of the recent cuts to service and amenities, and particularly the decision to switch to “contemporary” boxed meals on all routes east of the Mississippi after October 1. As a longtime customer and passenger, I ask that you please read this through.

My family and I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on Amtrak travel over the past several years, simply because it has been an incredibly enjoyable and unique way to travel. However, in recent years, the cuts and degradations to service have made our decision to take Amtrak, instead of the airlines, more and more difficult to justify._

_Inter-city rail in the U.S. will never be able to compete with a plane in regard to speed. The only way for it to compete is for the overall experience and amenities to be superior._

_We used to able to check baggage to and from the vast majority of stations. Now, not only are the majority of stations unstaffed, but such routes as the City of New Orleans, Texas Eagle, and Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited, have lost their baggage cars._

_Until only a few years ago, on virtually all routes, we could get freshly cooked meals (the Cardinal being the only exception), served on actual glassware and China, with unique selections for each region and direction. Now, the handful of routes that do retain full-service dining cars all serve the exact same menu–quite tedious over the course of a long trip–while the ones without offer an extremely limited selection of low-quality meals, if anything at all._

_I won’t even get into the cuts to Amtrak Guest Rewards, retirement of the Pacific Parlour Cars, increase in ticket prices, loss of flowers and snacks in the sleepers, discontinuation of the AAA and Veterans’ discount, reduction and increased restrictions of the Senior discount, and the tightening of the change and cancellation policy. These are smaller things, but they really do add up._

_At a certain point, any person who has alternatives such as taking a plane, a car, or a bus, will no longer take Amtrak. Meanwhile, the people who either live in places served exclusively by the train, or who are physically unable to take other forms of transport, will be stuck not traveling at all, or suffering through an increasingly expensive, long and uncomfortable ride on the rails._

_For Amtrak to do well, I believe it has to focus on what can make it best. I know that Food & Beverage service is mandated to turn a profit. However, that mandate was not written with the intent that the service itself has to make money; rather, those services are required to result in Amtrak as a whole being more profitable. Dining cars have always been loss leaders. The operation itself loses some amount of money, however, if it gets enough people to ride the train, it ends up paying for itself. Additionally, if need be, more money could simply be allocated from the sleepers to the diners, since the former is not required to turn a profit._

_Every year, my family and I take a trip to South Florida to stay with my grandparents. We first took the train (in a Roomette) in 2011, and absolutely loved it. Since then, we have taken the Silver Service in at least one direction, almost every year, even after the Silver Star lost its dining car in 2015. The continued availability of the dining car on the Meteor is what has made it possible for us to continue taking the train for those trips._

_Between these rides to Florida, multiple cross country trips, and countless other shorter day and overnight rides, we have spent more than 600 hours in sleepers, and many thousands of dollars on the tickets. And even after experiencing countless rude employees, numerous train cancellations, and even a derailment in Georgia last year, we have continued to ride and advocate for Amtrak._

_But as prices increase, the meal service is degraded, checked baggage service becomes less and less available, and so on, justifying these trips has become incredibly difficult. We have tried the boxed meal service on the Lake Shore Limited multiple times, and I can say that if it is implemented on the Silver Meteor, we will no longer be able to take Amtrak to visit my grandparents. I have many friends who previously would take multiple massive cross country trips each year. But without full meal service on any route between Chicago and the East Coast, such trips are no longer feasible for them._

_There aren’t just issues for angry railfans who want to keep the status quo at all costs._

_These are issues for all the people with dietary restrictions, since limited menus and food prepared ahead of time offer little to no choice of ingredients, and are often extremely high in sugar._

_These are issues for people who care about the environment; that don’t want to throw away cardboard boxes, plastic wrappers and bags, and disposable silverware at every meal._

_These are issues for the people who can no longer afford their tickets, or who have to travel in coach, where they no longer have access to a dining car at all._

_These are issues for people who live in remote towns without any other form of transit, who would see their rail service cut and/or replaced by buses, as you proposed this February._

_These are issues for the people who take Amtrak to move, but can no longer bring nearly as many of their belongings due to the loss of checked baggage.

These are issues for the thousands of station employees and OBS staff that work hard to make passengers’ trips much more enjoyable, yet are losing their jobs._

_Amtrak was not created with the goal of turning a profit. It was created when the private railroads of the time could NOT turn a profit, and the government saw the need to fund and retain adequate passenger rail service. In fact, Amtrak has explicitly stated in the “National Fact Sheets” of 2016, 2017, and 2018, that “No country in the world operates a passenger rail system without some form of public support for capital costs and/or operating expenses.”_

_I had been really hoping to take a very long round-trip coast to coast train trip before I head off to college next year. This would be a multi-thousand dollar trip with connections in six different cities (Chicago, Portland, Oregon, Emeryville/San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, and Portland, Maine), involving eight nights onboard, and sleeping accommodations the whole way. This would be the ultimate way for me to really see the country and enjoy the National Network while I still have the time to do so, before this new chapter of my life._

_Yet as a vegetarian, if more of these routes lose their dining service, it would legitimately be impossible to spend that much time onboard with that sort of meal selection. And as I said earlier, I know many people who are in a similar position. It’s not just about comfort or overall luxury; this sort of service simply isn’t doable for many people and serves to make train travel completely obsolete._

_I hope you consider these points in your work to improve Amtrak._

_Thank you so much for reading.

- Coby Potischman_


----------



## Thirdrail7

Rasputin said:


> I have a friend who periodically travels on the Boston section of the Lake Shore and he has been able to get a selection from the café car when he finds the contemporary selections unacceptable. It probably depends on the whims of the particular employees who are working that trip but maybe Amtrak has an actual policy on it.



There is a specific policy and a specific situation that allows swapping the contemporary meals for cafe car food. If that condition isn't met, and someone is doing it anyway (which is easy enough to do in my estimation), well I suppose you can chalk that up to "making rules up as they go along."


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Hi, y'all. I'm just so disappointed by this news that I finally took the time to write and send the following letter to Anderson, Gardner, and Coscia yesterday. I don't think it will make any difference, but at least I can feel like I'm doing _something._



Hey you!!! It's good to see you back in the saddle. I appreciate your letter but I suspect it will be of little use. They have an agenda and as Mr. Anderson says, I have a law to comply with.

So, I might suggest you take your letter and send it to your congressional representative. 

They have the authority to change the law...that is being cherry picked.


----------



## Rasputin

Thirdrail7 said:


> There is a specific policy and a specific situation that allows swapping the contemporary meals for cafe car food. If that condition isn't met, and someone is doing it anyway (which is easy enough to do in my estimation), well I suppose you can chalk that up to "making rules up as they go along."


Perhaps my friend is allowed to do this because he has some dietary restrictions so it may be consistent with the official policy (if that is what the official policy says.)


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Coby--Great to see you back!

Excellent letter, and I agree with Thirdrail7--send it to your congressional representative, too.

Thirdrail7--Your mention of the Keystones, I suppose because they have no food at all, reminds me of the one bright spot in all this: No dining car meals will lead to just what people do on the Keystones--get great food from the local places before and after traveling! Someone going from PHL to HAR on the Keystone can get a good breakfast or lunch in Philly, then a snack or another meal at the other end. And all those stops in Amish farm country in between with all that great food!

So, using that as an example, I had already decided that if I ever take the CL, I will get a late lunch in WAS and then go to that local diner everyone here talks about the next morning in Chicago. Or dinner in Philly before boarding the Meteor, then breakfast on the fancy street in Winter Park, Florida, the next day.

Great boosts for the local economy, wherever people are traveling to or from.

Of course, that doesn't make the LD sleeper any cheaper or more pleasant, and I never though I would say this, but I really don't want to go on them anymore just for fun--only to get somewhere because I don't fly--so I think my LD trips will be cut down greatly. No one wants to feel they are being taken advantage of, and that's what the same price for less is.


----------



## pennyk

cpotisch said:


> Hi, y'all. I'm just so disappointed by this news that I finally took the time to write and send the following letter to Anderson, Gardner, and Coscia yesterday. I don't think it will make any difference, but at least I can feel like I'm doing _something._


Well written letter Coby. It is good to "see you."


----------



## OBS

Coby, If you do decide to write to your Congressional folks, Edit, edit, edit that letter. Much too long winded. Keep short and to the point, please.


----------



## cpotisch

OBS said:


> Coby, If you do decide to write to your Congressional folks, Edit, edit, edit that letter. Much too long winded. Keep short and to the point, please.


Gee, thanks.


----------



## lordsigma

cpotisch said:


> Hi, y'all. I'm just so disappointed by this news that I finally took the time to write and send the following letter to Anderson, Gardner, and Coscia yesterday. I don't think it will make any difference, but at least I can feel like I'm doing _something._
> 
> _Dear Mr. Anderson, Mr. Gardner, Mr. Coscia and Amtrak Board of Directors_
> 
> _My name is Coby Potischman. I am a 17-year-old avid rail fan from New York City and a longtime advocate for Amtrak, as well as a member of the Rail Passenger Association. I am incredibly concerned and disheartened by all of the recent cuts to service and amenities, and particularly the decision to switch to “contemporary” boxed meals on all routes east of the Mississippi after October 1. As a longtime customer and passenger, I ask that you please read this through.
> 
> My family and I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on Amtrak travel over the past several years, simply because it has been an incredibly enjoyable and unique way to travel. However, in recent years, the cuts and degradations to service have made our decision to take Amtrak, instead of the airlines, more and more difficult to justify._
> 
> _Inter-city rail in the U.S. will never be able to compete with a plane in regard to speed. The only way for it to compete is for the overall experience and amenities to be superior._
> 
> _We used to able to check baggage to and from the vast majority of stations. Now, not only are the majority of stations unstaffed, but such routes as the City of New Orleans, Texas Eagle, and Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited, have lost their baggage cars._
> 
> _Until only a few years ago, on virtually all routes, we could get freshly cooked meals (the Cardinal being the only exception), served on actual glassware and China, with unique selections for each region and direction. Now, the handful of routes that do retain full-service dining cars all serve the exact same menu–quite tedious over the course of a long trip–while the ones without offer an extremely limited selection of low-quality meals, if anything at all._
> 
> _I won’t even get into the cuts to Amtrak Guest Rewards, retirement of the Pacific Parlour Cars, increase in ticket prices, loss of flowers and snacks in the sleepers, discontinuation of the AAA and Veterans’ discount, reduction and increased restrictions of the Senior discount, and the tightening of the change and cancellation policy. These are smaller things, but they really do add up._
> 
> _At a certain point, any person who has alternatives such as taking a plane, a car, or a bus, will no longer take Amtrak. Meanwhile, the people who either live in places served exclusively by the train, or who are physically unable to take other forms of transport, will be stuck not traveling at all, or suffering through an increasingly expensive, long and uncomfortable ride on the rails._
> 
> _For Amtrak to do well, I believe it has to focus on what can make it best. I know that Food & Beverage service is mandated to turn a profit. However, that mandate was not written with the intent that the service itself has to make money; rather, those services are required to result in Amtrak as a whole being more profitable. Dining cars have always been loss leaders. The operation itself loses some amount of money, however, if it gets enough people to ride the train, it ends up paying for itself. Additionally, if need be, more money could simply be allocated from the sleepers to the diners, since the former is not required to turn a profit._
> 
> _Every year, my family and I take a trip to South Florida to stay with my grandparents. We first took the train (in a Roomette) in 2011, and absolutely loved it. Since then, we have taken the Silver Service in at least one direction, almost every year, even after the Silver Star lost its dining car in 2015. The continued availability of the dining car on the Meteor is what has made it possible for us to continue taking the train for those trips._
> 
> _Between these rides to Florida, multiple cross country trips, and countless other shorter day and overnight rides, we have spent more than 600 hours in sleepers, and many thousands of dollars on the tickets. And even after experiencing countless rude employees, numerous train cancellations, and even a derailment in Georgia last year, we have continued to ride and advocate for Amtrak._
> 
> _But as prices increase, the meal service is degraded, checked baggage service becomes less and less available, and so on, justifying these trips has become incredibly difficult. We have tried the boxed meal service on the Lake Shore Limited multiple times, and I can say that if it is implemented on the Silver Meteor, we will no longer be able to take Amtrak to visit my grandparents. I have many friends who previously would take multiple massive cross country trips each year. But without full meal service on any route between Chicago and the East Coast, such trips are no longer feasible for them._
> 
> _There aren’t just issues for angry railfans who want to keep the status quo at all costs._
> 
> _These are issues for all the people with dietary restrictions, since limited menus and food prepared ahead of time offer little to no choice of ingredients, and are often extremely high in sugar._
> 
> _These are issues for people who care about the environment; that don’t want to throw away cardboard boxes, plastic wrappers and bags, and disposable silverware at every meal._
> 
> _These are issues for the people who can no longer afford their tickets, or who have to travel in coach, where they no longer have access to a dining car at all._
> 
> _These are issues for people who live in remote towns without any other form of transit, who would see their rail service cut and/or replaced by buses, as you proposed this February._
> 
> _These are issues for the people who take Amtrak to move, but can no longer bring nearly as many of their belongings due to the loss of checked baggage.
> 
> These are issues for the thousands of station employees and OBS staff that work hard to make passengers’ trips much more enjoyable, yet are losing their jobs._
> 
> _Amtrak was not created with the goal of turning a profit. It was created when the private railroads of the time could NOT turn a profit, and the government saw the need to fund and retain adequate passenger rail service. In fact, Amtrak has explicitly stated in the “National Fact Sheets” of 2016, 2017, and 2018, that “No country in the world operates a passenger rail system without some form of public support for capital costs and/or operating expenses.”_
> 
> _I had been really hoping to take a very long round-trip coast to coast train trip before I head off to college next year. This would be a multi-thousand dollar trip with connections in six different cities (Chicago, Portland, Oregon, Emeryville/San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, and Portland, Maine), involving eight nights onboard, and sleeping accommodations the whole way. This would be the ultimate way for me to really see the country and enjoy the National Network while I still have the time to do so, before this new chapter of my life._
> 
> _Yet as a vegetarian, if more of these routes lose their dining service, it would legitimately be impossible to spend that much time onboard with that sort of meal selection. And as I said earlier, I know many people who are in a similar position. It’s not just about comfort or overall luxury; this sort of service simply isn’t doable for many people and serves to make train travel completely obsolete._
> 
> _I hope you consider these points in your work to improve Amtrak._
> 
> _Thank you so much for reading.
> 
> - Coby Potischman_



Great letter. And welcome back.


----------



## jiml

cpotisch said:


> Hi, y'all. I'm just so disappointed by this news that I finally took the time to write and send the following letter to Anderson, Gardner, and Coscia yesterday. I don't think it will make any difference, but at least I can feel like I'm doing _something._


As a relative newcomer here I have enjoyed reading your past posts - especially the trip reports. Your letter is well-written and covers a wide range of topics. That having been said, the person who suggested an edit or two (unless already sent) is not wrong. The problem with any letter to a corporation is that it is first read by someone it was not addressed to. That person decides how much further it goes. Rare is the corporate executive who actually reads his/her own mail. Also, consider if some of your points were deserving of their own individual letters. For example, the comments about Guest Rewards might make it to a separate department rather than the CEO. Often it is better to make short, specific comments to have the most impact, rather than cover all your grievances/suggestions in one package. Finally, never include too much information about yourself - the railfan reference comes to mind. Something like that near the beginning can get the whole rest of the letter dismissed before it is read. It is important to you, but not to them. They have to simply realize you are a disgruntled paying customer - nothing more. Your wallet talks volumes.

Don't let me discourage you however. Keep up the good fight and please continue to contribute. You remind me of me many years ago.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> The airlines (especially the budget carriers like Southwest, etc.) seem to be doing quite well without having ANY food service, even on long transcontinental fights. I can say from experience that going without a meal is a nuisance, but I can deal with it (and apparently, so can American airline passengers in general), especially if the alternative is not being able to take the trip at all.


Southwest is fast and dependable with drinks and snacks included and numerous meal options available at departure and arrival locations. Amtrak is slow and undependable with most stations having little or nothing to eat or drink on site. You can't charge Southwest Airlines prices for the speed and dependability of a fly-by-night autobus company.



MARC Rider said:


> Train trips are longer than flights, so I can see the need for SOME sort of food service, but it doesn't need to be the sit-down restaurant model. I'd be fine with tray meals like the airline meals of yore. They could even serve them in the dining cars, as this would probably be more efficient than trying to move through the train with meal carts. So you'd still have the dining car experience, of a sort.


I honestly don't see the point of keeping up the dining car charade anymore. It probably would be just as well to place a crate of boxed meals near the entrance for passengers to collect on the way to their seat.



MARC Rider said:


> It's possible, once they eliminate restaurant style service, they could bring it back via outside contractors. Just because they were unsuccessful doing this before doesn't mean they won't succeed in the future. This has the advantage of taking food service off the books entirely.


Interesting theory. Maybe Richard Anderson took this job for one last chance to fight with yet another union.


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## HGSCS

cpotisch said:


> Hi, y'all. I'm just so disappointed by this news that I finally took the time to write and send the following letter to Anderson, Gardner, and Coscia yesterday. I don't think it will make any difference, but at least I can feel like I'm doing _something._


Coby,

You have received some very good advice here. Your letter is obviously very passionate. That’s a good thing. But you need to focus that passion. You want to make the letter “punch”. Whoever reads this letter is going to give it, at best, a few seconds of their full attention. Two paragraphs is really all that you should need to convey your point powerfully.

It’s a great start that will really shine with some editing.


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## jiml

Devil's Advocate said:


> I honestly don't see the point of keeping up the dining car charade anymore. It probably would be just as well to place a crate of boxed meals near the entrance for passengers to collect on the way to their seat.


Ah, the infamous American Airlines Bistro Bag. Been there, done that...


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## Amtrakfflyer

The funny thing is looking back and compared to how things are now I actually enjoyed the bistro bag. A bagged lunch on a 2:00 flight works, a boxed lunch for a couple paying upwards of $1000 for a 30 hour train ride isn’t.


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## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Southwest is fast and dependable with drinks and snacks included and numerous meal options available at departure and arrival locations. Amtrak is slow and undependable with most stations having little or nothing to eat or drink on site. You can't charge Southwest Airlines prices for the speed and dependability of a fly-by-night autobus company.



Exactly. And when was the last time Amtrak Guest Rewards sent anyone a free drink coupon? I got 4 in the mail and I'm not even A-List.


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## Charles785

I'm sure the letter above written by young Cody about the reduction in amenities for Amtrak long-distance trains is one I whole heartily agree with but I'll admit I didn't read the entire letter. And perhaps it can be made even more effective and to the point.

Now, I will admit my bias for brevity. And I know Cody put a lot of thought and effort into wriitng what he wanted to say. I'm also sure a background in writing for radio, and in writing news releases that I wanted published, encouraged me to always edit for length.

So, just based on my experience, my thoughts are that if Cody would take his main thoughts in the above letter he wrote to Amtrak, and edit them down to, say, 300 words (the maximum length some newspapers allow for letters to the editor) from the current 1500 words or so, and send them to his Senators,
Representative, New York area daily and weekly newspapers, and others, he would maximize the chances of his letter being thoroughly read, and maybe even published.

Anyway, just a thought. Oh - and I'll admit to another bias. I want the message in opposition to the downgrading of Amtrak's long-distance to be heard loud and clear everywhere possible. Cody's certainly started to do his part.


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## tim49424

pennyk said:


> Well written letter Coby. It is good to "see you."



Yes, Coby, glad you’re back. You’ve been missed and I hope you stick around!


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## dogbert617

Winecliff Station said:


> Does contemporary dining include the option of getting something from the cafe car if you’re in a sleeper? It would make sense if the cost is comparable.



As I clearly remember from when I rode the EB #8 east from East Glacier Park to Chicago and asking my sleeping car attendant, no the sleeper fare does not include the cost of any cafe car food items. Which btw, you have to buy separately. A la how if you get a beer in the dining car, you have to pay for that separately vs. your meal and non-alcoholic drinks being free.

Doubt this has changed on Capitol and Lake Shore since contemporary dining was implemented on those 2 trains, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Finally Coby, that was a heck of a letter you wrote! I should probably write a letter like that at some point to the higher ups at Amtrak, and also to Congress(wo)men and Senators. I doubt this'll move the needle in stopping those upcoming dining car cuts, but never hurts to express my displeasure about contemporary dining expanding further.


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## HGSCS

Permit me to play Devil's advocate here.

We know that Anderson used the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited as tests for Contemporary Dining. It has now been several months. We also know (or at least strongly believe) that Anderson has decided to expand Contemporary Dining to all overnight trains east of the Mississippi. It is reasonable to infer from this that, despite all of the protestations on this forum, Contemporary Dining has not had an appreciable impact on overall ridership. If this is indeed the case, it's hard to fault Anderson for its expansion to similar trains.

It is perfectly understandable to be upset over this change. But if you are no longer going to ride a one-night train because of this change, let’s be honest. You were likely never a railfan in the first place. If you think that flying is going to now magically be preferable you are setting yourself up for disappointment. My suspicion is that for all of those people who say that they aren't going to ride the train, the overwhelming majority are going to ride the train. No doubt Anderson has seen this in the airline world. Think about how many people complained vociforously over baggage fees, removal of meals, etc. And yet they still traveled by air. But Amtrak is all about the experience, no? Well... maybe it is. But Anderson now has data to show that the "experience" of Contemporary Dining for one night has not negatively impacted ridership on one-night trains. Or at least that the negative impact on ridership is justified by the savings in the dining car.

I suppose that this could really just be some part of a big conspiracy to remove long distance trains from the schedule. But if that was the case Anderson would have launched Contemporary Dining system-wide. This has all of the hallmarks of a controlled test and a broader roll out based on the results of that test.

Am I happy with the decision? No. Will I still travel by train? Yes. No doubt Anderson knows that most people think like me.


----------



## Rasputin

Let's see the data on ridership.


----------



## HGSCS

Let's look at operating costs. Specifically, let's look at the operating profit and losses.

Year to date, as of May, here is what we see for 2018 and 2019.

Lake Shore Limited:
2018 operating losses: 26.9
2019 operating losses: 23.5

Capitol Limited:
2018 operating losses: 19.8
2019 operating losses: 17.3

So this tells us that both trains have had lower losses since the introduction of Contemporary Dining. In other words, it has not had the catastrophic impact that many suggested it would have. 

Mind you, other eastern long distance trains lost less money as well. But that's the point. Contemporary Dining doesn't reverse that overall trend. I freely admit that this is a very shallow look into the overall issue - and that I am probably in over my head here, but it is safe to say that rumors of the demise of these trains were greatly exaggerated.


----------



## Rasputin

HGSCS said:


> It is perfectly understandable to be upset over this change. But if you are no longer going to ride a one-night train because of this change, let’s be honest. You were likely never a railfan in the first place.



I guess I should be honest and come clean. I was never a railfan, just a foodie who enjoyed dining cars.


----------



## HGSCS

Rasputin said:


> I guess I should be honest and come clean. I was never a railfan, just a foodie who enjoyed dining cars.


Egads. The diner car food was never THAT good.  If it was the atmosphere of a dining car that you were after, Contemporary Dining doesn't change things except for the level of service.


----------



## Rasputin

HGSCS said:


> Egads. The diner car food was never THAT good.  If it was the atmosphere of a dining car that you were after, Contemporary Dining doesn't change things except for the level of service.


I have been riding trains with dining cars since the 1960s. They have run the gamut. You call it your way and I will call it mine.


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## JoeBas

HGSCS said:


> It is perfectly understandable to be upset over this change. But if you are no longer going to ride a one-night train because of this change, let’s be honest. You were likely never a railfan in the first place.



Dammit, I guess I have to close my 4 train watching webcams I have going on my 3rd monitor here at work now, because I guess I was never a railfan in the first place. 

Now, where did I put that Emoji... it IS, after all, Emoji day. 

Ah yes, here it is.


----------



## HGSCS

JoeBas said:


> Dammit, I guess I have to close my 4 train watching webcams I have going on my 3rd monitor here at work now, because I guess I was never a railfan in the first place.
> 
> Now, where did I put that Emoji... it IS, after all, Emoji day.
> 
> Ah yes, here it is.


I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that you are going to stop riding any trains with Contemporary Dining?


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## flitcraft

Cody, what a fantastic writer you are! As a university professor, I can tell you that you are already a far better writer than most college students are when they finish their degrees! 

The advice you are getting about writing a shorter version of the letter for purposes of affecting policy is good, however. I've also been told that a hard copy letter tends to get more attention than an email does. 

It's great to see you back here; your contributions and your unique voice have certainly been missed.


----------



## JoeBas

HGSCS said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that you are going to stop riding any trains with Contemporary Dining?



No, I'm saying I've even stopped booking trains (I.E. Crescent, that I have frequently taken in the past) that DIDN'T have contemporary dining yet, in anticipation of the virus spreading to them before my trip and in light of the new, more draconian, airline-style cancellations policy.


----------



## HGSCS

JoeBas said:


> No, I'm saying I've even stopped booking trains (I.E. Crescent, that I have frequently taken in the past) that DIDN'T have contemporary dining yet, in anticipation of the virus spreading to them before my trip and in light of the new, more draconian, airline-style cancellations policy.


Gotcha. All I can say is that Anderson does not believe that there are enough people like you out there. To be fair to Anderson, from a revenue perspective he appears to be correct. You also may want to consider at least trying contemporary dining. My experience is that, while not exactly what I would want to see on a train, I still am happy that I chose the train over other options. Many others have shared the same opinion.


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## dgvrengineer

Contemporary dining is not that bad! It was when it was first introduced, but they have improved the quality of the food and increased the variety. I'm sure this will continue to evolve and improve. For a one night train, I think this is adequate. I do not think it would be adequate for any train of two or more nights. People now days are more used to bag meals from fast food outlets than fancy meals from a high end restaurant. It would be great to go back to the dinning cars of the 50's & 60's, but those days are gone.


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## Rasputin

We tried contemporary dining on the Lake Shore in May so I was able to compare it to the dining service on the Crescent a week earlier. The contemporary dining was adequate. I think the breakfast at my local McDonalds is better. The breakfast sandwich on the CONO a day before was far tastier than the Lake Shore breakfast sandwich (although the bottom part of the CONO breakfast sandwich was a bit soggy). The lunch was sort of like getting a frozen entrée at your supermarket and heating it up. Given the high prices of sleeping car accommodations on the Lake Shore, it is not a good value.


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## LookingGlassTie

HGSCS, you've made some really good points.

My perspective on Anderson aside, my concern is that Amtrak is stagnant and needs to evolve to some extent. It is often said in the business world that one of the most dangerous phrases is "we've always done 'X' this way". I want there to be a balance between operating efficiency and keeping riders/passengers happy so that they will continue to ride the trains. It's akin to pruning a tree. You may not necessarily want to prune parts of the tree (because it's pretty), but you realize that pruning is better for the tree's overall health.

I've said before that a lot of Anderson's moves and decisions appear to be drastic, even to the point of possibly eliminating parts of the Amtrak system. However, I don't believe that his aim or intent is to alienate the customer base on which his position stands.


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## HGSCS

It’s an interesting question.

The airlines, after 9/11, were hemorrhaging money. They were operated in in old school manner. CEOs such as Anderson brought the airlines back to profitability by changing the overall model, often to the displeasure of customers. But it worked. Extremely well.

While Amtrak does not need to be profitable it does need to be sustainable. There is a reason that the Amtrak board of directors brought in Anderson. They obviously liked what he did with the airlines and wanted him to bring some of that expertise and apply it to Amtrak.

On the other hand, when it comes to flying you have a much more captive audience. Flying is the only option for many people, especially when it comes to long distance travel. Amtrak is often a preference rather than a necessity.

I don’t claim to have the answers. But what I do see is that Anderson is being cautious, which is a good thing. It is clear that contemporary dining was tested on a limited basis and is only being expanded after they have been able to see the results of those tests. It’s also clear that they have been listening to customer feedback. That’s why you saw the enhancement to the contemporary dining menu shortly after its rollout. If changes are going to be made this seems like a responsible way to make those changes. I know that the changes are upsetting to many of us but it is also in our best interest if Amtrak moves toward sustainability. I am all for shielding Amtrak from the whims of Congress. At least to the extent possible.

No doubt people complained when they removed Pullman cars and white linen service. But times change and a company that does not change with the times is a company that is doomed to die.


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## Rasputin

HGSCS said:


> It’s also clear that they have been listening to customer feedback. That’s why you saw the enhancement to the contemporary dining menu shortly after its rollout.


Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that the "enhancements' to contemporary dining took place about 10 or 11 months after it was introduced.


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## Amtrakfflyer

As a airline pilot who lived through 9/11. Government loans/bailouts, bankruptcies (gutting of pensions) by every major airline except Southwest and mergers are why the airlines are solidly in the black now. 

There’s not nearly the competition with 3 major network airlines. The LCC’s have thrived but for the most part in boutique less than daily markets. People think Anderson did a miraculous job at Delta they forget but NW and Delta used the bankruptcy laws in that time frame. Oil was also at close to record lows at the end of his tenure at Delta. His leadership was definitely fostered by external forces.


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## HGSCS

Rasputin said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that the "enhancements' to contemporary dining took place about 10 or 11 months after it was introduced.


Contemporary dining started June 1, 2018.

The addition of hot meals was announced in January, 2019.

So a little over six months - not ten or eleven.


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## HGSCS

Amtrakfflyer said:


> As a airline pilot who lived through 9/11. Government loans/bailouts, bankruptcies (gutting of pensions) by every major airline except Southwest and mergers are why the airlines are solidly in the black now.
> 
> There’s not nearly the competition with 3 major network airlines. The LCC’s have thrived but for the most part in boutique less than daily markets. People think Anderson did a miraculous job at Delta they forget but NW and Delta used the bankruptcy laws in that time frame. Oil was also at close to record lows at the end of his tenure at Delta. His leadership was definitely fostered by external forces.


No doubt Anderson used every tool available - including bankruptcy. If bankruptcy alone was the reason for a company's survival, Sears and countless other companies would be thriving. The point is that Anderson steered the airline through arguably the most difficult time in aviation history. Delta's stock went from under $10 to about $50 during Anderson's tenure. The Amtrak Board of Directors obviously saw something in him.

Full disclosure, I really don't know much about Anderson. I am just making my observations based on what little I have seen and heard.

The thrust of my argument is quite simple. In order for any business to survive it needs to change and adapt. Time will only tell if Anderson is making all of the wrong decisions. But we should not be afraid of change itself - just the wrong types of change.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

HGSCS said:


> It is perfectly understandable to be upset over this change. But if you are no longer going to ride a one-night train because of this change, let’s be honest. You were likely never a railfan in the first place.


I don't know if you really just showed up yesterday, or if you're a former member making patronizing remarks under a second account, but either way it's rather curious to see you try so hard to make a name for yourself right out of the gate.



HGSCS said:


> My suspicion is that for all of those people who say that they aren't going to ride the train, the overwhelming majority are going to ride the train. No doubt Anderson has seen this in the airline world. Think about how many people complained vociforously over baggage fees, removal of meals, etc. And yet they still traveled by air.


When people say they're done riding Amtrak I tend to take them at their word. I also believe the other side when they say they'll keep riding Amtrak no matter what happens. That being said, you're the first person I've seen who thinks long distance passengers are beholden to one of the slowest and least dependable passenger rail networks in the same way aircraft passengers are beholden to the world's largest domestic airline market.



HGSCS said:


> No doubt Anderson knows that most people think like me.


What's it like living inside your own echo chamber?


----------



## HGSCS

Wow. Thanks for the welcome, Devil's Advocate. It was, ahem, interesting.

One point of clarification. You missed the part where I said that airline passengers are much more of a captive audience than train passengers.

I will quote what I said in post number 153 with emphasis added this time:
"On the other hand, when it comes to flying you have a much more captive audience. Flying is the only option for many people, especially when it comes to long distance travel. *Amtrak is often a preference rather than a necessity*."

So you will still have to wait to see the "first person who thinks long distance passengers are beholden to one of the slowest and least dependable passenger rail networks in the same way aircraft passengers are beholden to the world's largest domestic airline market."

As for your other accusations, I will point out that LSL and CL operational losses are LOWER with contemporary dining than before. So, yes, Anderson knows that lots of people think like me and that revenues on these trains will not be significantly impacted by a switch to contemporary dining. The numbers are what they are and they have proven this out. If you have evidence to the contrary I am all ears, but I notice that you did not provide any.

Finally, I stand by my comment that if you no longer ride a one-night train solely because of a switch to Contemporary Dining you really aren't a rail fan. Put another way, you are a foodie more than a rail fan. But let's be honest, it's not like the dining car provided anything remotely close to the type of dining that excites foodies. Frozen green beans, frozen steaks, pre-cooked bacon and iceberg lettuce salads aren't things that foodies get excited about. You yourself said, "To this day Amtrak's burger remains the most disappointing example I've ever had outside of a middle school cafeteria. If someone knows of a for-profit sit down restaurant that makes worse burgers than Amtrak please let me know." And let's not forget when you said, "Amtrak sausage was fine for many years but more recently it's become so bad that it finally made me switch to bacon, which isn't really my preference, but compared to boiled sausage I'll pick bacon every time." (see post #8 and #13 here: https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/threads/food-preparation-on-long-distance-trains.72314/ )

I am sympathetic, however, to the loss of the overall camaraderie of the dining car. I have no doubt, however, that the true rail fans will swallow that bitter pill and keep riding.


----------



## tricia

Just for rhetorical purposes, let's assume for a moment that the various changes that have been happening under Anderson's watch are honestly intended as experiments aimed at improving Amtrak.

There are still three mega-problems with the changes:

1) Many (most? all?) of these changes constitute reductions in service and/or the quality of service, with no reliable improvement in profitability. Hard to see how, for example, loss of baggage service at so many stations will "improve" Amtrak other than the dubious financial "improvement" of not paying staff to handle baggage anymore (is there any evidence that Amtrak management has made any effort to explore whether towns losing station staff would be willing to pay that cost themselves?), regardless of how much revenue is lost when passengers who'd previously checked baggage decide not to take Amtrak in the future. I'd say most or all of this sort of change risks the endgame scenario of cutting costs again and again until there's nothing left of Amtrak at all.

2) ANY elimination of train routes, or parts of train routes, is effectively final, not "experimental." Once Amtrak gives up all or part of an existing route, getting the route back for use by passenger trains in the future will be very difficult or impossible. (Consider the extensive discussion, in other threads on this forum, about obstacles to re-establishing service on previously abandoned routes.) As oil and other fossil fuels become more expensive and/or scarce and/or unavailable in the future, we'll really, really want to be able to use passenger rail more as an alternative to less fuel-efficient modes of transport. Eliminating passenger train routes now takes that set of options out of reach in the future.

3) The "changes" we've seen proposed and/or enacted so far simply don't address Amtrak's most pressing real problems. That would require a visionary approach to, among other things, OTP and better connectivity in Amtrak's network and its connections to other modes of transport. Instead of building on and improving Amtrak's existing infrastructure, all we see is cut, cut, cut.

Now let's re-visit that initial assumption. Many participants in this forum clearly see "3" as well as changes in the "2" category as not being good-faith efforts to improve Amtrak. The clearest example of that to date has been Anderson's proposal to bustitute a section of the SWC. This (along with mega-problem "1"), has led many of us to be very skeptical of each specific "change" as it's announced, and in general to be suspicious about Anderson's motives and goals.

That skepticism is only deepened when changes rolled out with great fanfare as "enhancements" look like cheap substitutes that Amtrak is apparently calculating it can get away with in the short run, with little consideration of genuine improvement or long-term sustainability.


----------



## HGSCS

All fair points, Tricia. My comments were limited solely to the introduction of Contemporary Dining. 

That said, I think that people may disagree with the definition of "improving Amtrak." Anderson may focus more on sustainability whereas others may focus more on the onboard experience. Both sides have their merits - although there can be no onboard experience if Congress finally throws in the towel. Exactly where that balance is drawn I do not know. Anderson I am sure has a vision - and it remains to be seen if his vision works out.


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## Amtrakfflyer

“that skepticism is only deepened when changes rolled out with great fanfare as "enhancements" look like cheap substitutes that Amtrak is apparently calculating it can get away with in the short run, with little consideration of genuine improvement or long-term sustainability.”

Tricia you nailed it, that goes hand in hand with HGSGS statement, 
“Delta's stock went from under $10 to about $50 during Anderson's tenure. The Amtrak Board of Directors obviously saw something in him.”

Anderson has no clue how to run a public for the good of the people company. There’s no Wall Street to impress here. He may be trying to impress the Board so he hits the targets for his pay which is 100 percent based on bonuses (no base salary). I wish Senator Moran would ask to see what Andersons pay/bonus targets are, it might be enlightening.

Like a lot private sector CEO’s today he’s laying no viable foundation for the future. He’s cutting with no end goal in sight unless the end goal truly is to shut the network down. Anderson was and still is the wrong person for the job. 

He’s worked for United Healthcare and two airlines that went through bankruptcy in and around his time there. Hardly a resume for a public servant. Don’t get me wrong tweaks and efficiencies can always be made but he has no concept or clue.


----------



## chrsjrcj

HGSCS said:


> Let's look at operating costs. Specifically, let's look at the operating profit and losses.
> 
> Year to date, as of May, here is what we see for 2018 and 2019.
> 
> Lake Shore Limited:
> 2018 operating losses: 26.9
> 2019 operating losses: 23.5
> 
> Capitol Limited:
> 2018 operating losses: 19.8
> 2019 operating losses: 17.3
> 
> So this tells us that both trains have had lower losses since the introduction of Contemporary Dining. In other words, it has not had the catastrophic impact that many suggested it would have.
> 
> Mind you, other eastern long distance trains lost less money as well. But that's the point. Contemporary Dining doesn't reverse that overall trend. I freely admit that this is a very shallow look into the overall issue - and that I am probably in over my head here, but it is safe to say that rumors of the demise of these trains were greatly exaggerated.



Eh. I'm not convinced that tells the whole story without also looking at ridership (which should be the main concern anyway) and revenues.

EDIT:

Lake Shore Limited: 
2018 Operating Revenues: 19.1
2019 Operating Revenues: 18.6

2018 Ridership: 227.9
2019 Ridership: 223.5

Capitol Limited:
2018 Operating Revenues: 12.8
2019 Operating Revenues: 12.1

2018 Ridership: 133.8
2019 Ridership: 127.1


----------



## jebr

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Anderson has no clue how to run a public for the good of the people company. There’s no Wall Street to impress here.



I'd argue that Delta in 2016 was a pretty well-run company, and does its core job of transporting people pretty well. They have some impressive numbers in terms of operational performance (extremely low numbers of cancelled flights, good on-time performance, etc.) and if Anderson could somehow bring that to Amtrak I'd be very pleased.

If anything, Anderson seems to be aiming straight for following the laws as written, namely to move Amtrak to profitability, run it as a business, and to eliminate F&B losses. If Congress wants Amtrak to run things unprofitably for the good of the country, then Congress needs to pass laws to reverse/amend their current laws. They could remove the "run as a business" item, or stipulate that the long-distance network will be funded at x amount and requires y amenities on-board. I'd love to see Amtrak have their budget increased and have a mandate that, say, 40% of the budget is used to provide connectivity throughout America, connecting as many people/underserved populations as possible, and 60% is used to fund routes that will gain the most ridership. Those percentages could be tweaked, but the general concept still stands.


----------



## HGSCS

chrsjrcj said:


> Eh. I'm not convinced that tells the whole story without also looking at ridership (which should be the main concern anyway) and revenues.


To be clear, I am not suggesting that Contemporary Dining led to lower losses. As I mentioned earlier, other eastern long distance trains with full dining also saw lower losses. All I was suggesting is that Contemporary Dining has not had the apocalyptic impact that many people predicted.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

My biggest complaint with the contemporary dining is how it locks you into set side dishes and desserts. That forces people with certain diets to be unable to get an entire meal that they can actually consume.


----------



## chrsjrcj

HGSCS said:


> To be clear, I am not suggesting that Contemporary Dining led to lower losses. As I mentioned earlier, other eastern long distance trains with full dining also saw lower losses. All I was suggesting is that Contemporary Dining has not had the apocalyptic impact that many people predicted.



Sure, operating performances have improved. I edited my original post to include revenues and ridership.


----------



## HGSCS

crescent-zephyr said:


> My biggest complaint with the contemporary dining is how it locks you into set side dishes and desserts. That forces people with certain diets to be unable to get an entire meal that they can actually consume.


Is the only special dietary meal that can be ordered in advance a kosher meal? I can't recall seeing any other options other than the vegetarian meal that is already on the menu. It would definitely be nice if they could accommodate more dietary restrictions.


----------



## chrsjrcj

jebr said:


> I'd argue that Delta in 2016 was a pretty well-run company, and does its core job of transporting people pretty well. They have some impressive numbers in terms of operational performance (extremely low numbers of cancelled flights, good on-time performance, etc.) and if Anderson could somehow bring that to Amtrak I'd be very pleased.
> 
> If anything, Anderson seems to be aiming straight for following the laws as written, namely to move Amtrak to profitability, run it as a business, and to eliminate F&B losses. If Congress wants Amtrak to run things unprofitably for the good of the country, then Congress needs to pass laws to reverse/amend their current laws. They could remove the "run as a business" item, or stipulate that the long-distance network will be funded at x amount and requires y amenities on-board. *I'd love to see Amtrak have their budget increased and have a mandate that, say, 40% of the budget is used to provide connectivity throughout America, connecting as many people/underserved populations as possible, and 60% is used to fund routes that will gain the most ridership.* Those percentages could be tweaked, but the general concept still stands.



That is precisely the model my county uses when determining bus routes, and how much resources each route receives. Without completely throwing this thread off-topic, here is a write up by a transit consultant regarding the ridership vs coverage tradeoff (although in regards to buses) https://humantransit.org/2018/02/basics-the-ridership-coverage-tradeoff.html


----------



## Qapla

Who knows ... maybe the idea with "changing" the dining options really is to take Amtrak out of the food distribution business. Perhaps, they are taking a page out of WalMart's book ???

Years back, when you went into a "department store", like the old Woolworth stores, they had a "lunch counter" and/or dining area. These were operated by the store. In time, they started to disappear. When WalMart started to become "the store" they did not have a "lunch counter" ... however, look at many of the WalMart's now.

Now - they have Subway, McDonald's and other "brand name" fast food brands renting space inside the store. Maybe, just maybe - some of those dining cars they pulled out of service can be/are being refitted to allow "outside vendors" to turn them into "fast food branded" dining cars selling food people buy with much more enthusiasm then the riders on Amtrak do with the "food" offered in the lounge cars.

Especially when trains like the Silver Star no longer have a dining car at all - only a lounge car that sells over-priced-micro-zapped offerings.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The Auto Train changes are an interesting thing to notice.... if that is the future for the Western trains, we will have to see how that plays out. 

Amtrak seems to be all over the map with who they are trying to attract as far as riders go. Food trucks in the auto train parking lot? Why? Who's asking that. I can hear it now... "Oh yeah you've just got to take the Auto Train, they have food trucks in the parking lot!"


----------



## dogbert617

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Regarding the RPA, another nonchalant Friday update with this news.
> When are they going to call a spade, a spade and call out Amtrak management in front of Congress. Starting with Anderson and Gardner are incompetent and deceitful (obviously not in those exact words).
> 
> Fast forward 6 months from now the next nonchalant update very well could be, “we are disheartened to learn Amtrak is suspending 11 of the 15 national network trains, the 4 remaining will operate tri weekly, except the CA Zephyr which will be 1x weekly”, “please consider a donation at this time”.
> 
> Before you jump on me with this, can you honestly tell me this is not what Anderson’s wants?
> 
> I know it’s Congresses call but expect huge ridership drop off’s, more skewed facts, possible disregard for Congress and no 180 day train off notices with the backing of the Administration. Right now Anderson is boiling Amtrak like a frog in luke warm water
> 
> RPA is respected in Congress they need to start challenging Amtrak more. We more then likely will have a new administration in 2020 but what will be left of Amtrak in 18 months?



You really think that by say 2021, that something like 10-11 long distance trains will be gone? I doubt Anderson and the other higher ups (i.e. Gardner, dunno if I'm saying his last name right, etc) will go THAT FAR with cuts (due to Congress and(especially!) Senate raising high hell on Anderson if he proposes that), but I am still concerned about further downgrades to service. I.e. contemporary dining potentially going to all long distance trains still with a dining car(while not taking care of the no diner situation on Silver Star and Cardinal), further unstaffing of Amtrak stations, baggage cars being less available on long distance trains, etc.

Ugh, it'll be a bumpy ride till Anderson is out of Amtrak....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

HGSCS said:


> I will point out that LSL and CL operational losses are LOWER with contemporary dining than before. So, yes, Anderson knows that lots of people think like me and that revenues on these trains will not be significantly impacted by a switch to contemporary dining. The numbers are what they are and they have proven this out. If you have evidence to the contrary I am all ears, but I notice that you did not provide any.


I have little doubt that Anderson can substantially reduce the food and beverage budget by removing options, lowering expectations, and reducing staff. With enough board support Anderson can probably reduce net F&B costs to almost nothing. The problem is that Amtrak has been repeatedly lowering service standards without reducing ticket fares or otherwise sharing the savings with Amtrak's customers (other than perhaps the SS). That being the case sleeper passengers are now stuck with a perpetually eroding value proposition while coach passengers are simply losing access altogether. 



HGSCS said:


> I stand by my comment that if you no longer ride a one-night train solely because of a switch to Contemporary Dining you really aren't a rail fan...I am sympathetic, however, to the loss of the overall camaraderie of the dining car. I have no doubt, however, that the true rail fans will swallow that bitter pill and keep riding.


I'm so glad we finally have some real rail fans who don't mind throwing good money after bad and will always be there to pickup the tab no matter the price or service levels. It's actually quite comforting to realize that fake fans like me can simply go about our lives without worrying about Amtrak now that some guardian benefactors with deep pockets and shallow expectations are ready and able to cover any shortfall.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Yeah.. people like me who go out to Omaha and pay $400 to ride behind the Union Pacific Big Boy for 6 hours aren't real railfans. 
I much prefer riding trains vs. flying but since I'm not a real railfan I've decided to take Delta First Class vs. Amtrak Sleeper due to the downgrades in service. 

I recently traveled back from California and thought briefly about taking Amtrak.... but then I thought about how depressing it would be to ride the Starlight and Empire Builder right now and think about what it was like just a few years ago. Granted the customer service was always iffy on the Starlight both in the diner and the PPC... but the experience was still worth it. 

I really do need to ride the Crescent before the diner ends... even a day trip down to New Orleans.


----------



## HGSCS

My comments were solely about Contemporary Dining. Nothing more. When it comes to Contemporary Dining, I find it very hard to believe that anyone who cares deeply about trains would stop riding because, for just one night, they no longer have access to frozen green beans, pre-cooked rice, frozen steak, boiled sausage and what Devil’s Advocate says is the worst cheeseburger s/he has ever had outside of a middle school cafeteria.

Frankly, I am willing to make some small sacrifices if it helps Amtrak’s sustainability. Others obviously aren’t, and that’s fine. We all have different priorities. I don’t begrudge anyone’s opinion. I’m just pointing out what they are prioritizing. When it comes to boycotting the train over Contemporary Dining, the priority is food and not the train ride itself.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

HGSCS said:


> Wow. Thanks for the welcome, Devil's Advocate. It was, ahem, interesting.



He's doesn't like the competition. 



HGSCS said:


> Permit me to play Devil's advocate here.


----------



## tricia

Well, HGSCS, I tried to point out the context for all this in my post above, but your responses make me think of what Dorothy Parker said when asked to use "horticulture" in a sentence.

"Contemporary Dining" is not a "sacrifice" necessary for "sustainability." Rather, it's one cut among the proverbial thousand trending toward Amtrak's demise.

Apologies to others on this forum if I'm feeding a troll here.


----------



## HGSCS

tricia said:


> Well, HGSCS, I tried to point out the context for all this in my post above, but your responses make me think of what Dorothy Parker said when asked to use "horticulture" in a sentence.
> 
> "Contemporary Dining" is not a "sacrifice" necessary for "sustainability." Rather, it's one cut among the proverbial thousand trending toward Amtrak's demise.
> 
> Apologies to others on this forum if I'm feeding a troll here.


I agree with you. The cumulative nature of the changes matter. That is why I was careful to say that my comments were limited to Contemporary Dining. I was trying not to take the thread on a tangent.

That said, Congress has issued a very clear directive in regard to food and beverage. Contemporary dining is one way for Amtrak to follow the law. When it comes to asking Congress for money, I would much rather have Congress view Amtrak as willing to follow the law than viewing Amtrak as a law breaker - or at least to be able to see that Amtrak gave it their best shot. Failing to at least attempt to follow the law would give tons and tons of ammunition for Congressmen who want to see Amtrak eliminated. As I said earlier, I am more than happy to make some small sacrifices if it reduces the ability of the opposition to mount an effective campaign for the elimination of Amtrak.

When it comes to food and beverage changes, a lot of the criticism of Anderson should really be leveled at Congress.


----------



## bms

HGSCS said:


> No doubt Anderson used every tool available - including bankruptcy. If bankruptcy alone was the reason for a company's survival, Sears and countless other companies would be thriving. The point is that Anderson steered the airline through arguably the most difficult time in aviation history. Delta's stock went from under $10 to about $50 during Anderson's tenure. The Amtrak Board of Directors obviously saw something in him.



The airline industry is one of the most heavily subsidized industries in the United States. If federal subsidies were on their books the same way they are for Amtrak, no airline would show a profit. Even with subsidies, one or more major airlines go bankrupt every time there's a recession. I don't see why any other industry should emulate their business practices.

Moreover, airlines have a majority of customers who have to travel for work, don't have time to fly or drive such distances, and thus don't have much choice but to accept worse service. Amtrak needs to provide a good service or its customers will use a different mode of travel.


----------



## dogbert617

Chessie said:


> Wow, my upcoming SM trip is on Sep 30th. Wonder if they remove the dining car after the arrival.



As I remember when dining cars were eliminated for contemporary dining on Capitol Limited(and coincidentally I was on the last west #29 Cap with a dining car), the trains that left Chicago and DC on May 31st, 2018, were THE last ever Cap trains with a dining car. So I'd say as long as your Silver Meteor trip departs from NYC or Miami no later than September 30th, you'd be safe. After that beginning October 1st with those 2 trains departing from NYC and Miami, you'd be out of luck and have to deal with contemporary dining BS.


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## HGSCS

bms said:


> The airline industry is one of the most heavily subsidized industries in the United States.


So you are saying that Anderson has years of experience running a large transportation company that had to navigate the complicated federal subsidy system. And while at the helm he more than quintupled his company’s stock value and significantly improved its profitability despite heavy competition. 

I’m struggling to see how that makes him a bad fit for Amtrak. 

I’m not saying that the guy is perfect, but he does bring an impressive resume to the table.


----------



## dogbert617

crescent-zephyr said:


> Just curious as to why? I’ve gotten more used to flying than I ever thought I would. First class on delta isn’t anymore than a sleeper and is a pretty decent product.
> 
> I’m pretty sad I reached the tipping point with Amtrak. I loved taking the train so much.... but enough was finally enough for the LD trains. I’ll try to take the crescent with a full diner one last time.



I'm almost tempted to try to do an Atlanta trip on Crescent before September 30, as I'd never ridden that route before. And also, due to the fact it'd allow me to have a dining meal (s) while on the Crescent at least once.

My question is if I'm traveling south on #19(this question is for those MORE familiar with regular train operations on Crescent, and have ridden it a LOT), is the first serving time for breakfast early enough so that one could get a meal in, before arriving in Atlanta? Due to my work schedule IF I go through with this trip, I would ride the Cardinal to Crescent (transfer in Charlottesville, VA), then fly back one way from Atlanta's airport to Chicago. Yay for the fact one way flights from Atlanta back to Chicago, look pretty affordable ($80ish).


----------



## TiBike

tricia said:


> Apologies to others on this forum if I'm feeding a troll here.



There's a poster on Train Orders with the handle "another_view" who uses language remarkably similar to the quote below. He/she is artfully evasive about his/her relationship to Amtrak, but appears to have access to internal company data and consistently argues the Amtrak executive suite line. It's widely assumed, and never conclusively denied, that he/she is connected to Amtrak. It's not uncommon for companies to benefit from the services of social media hired guns, either paid directly or through an organisation with a parallel point of view.



HGSCS said:


> So you are saying that Anderson has years of experience running a large transportation company that had to navigate the complicated federal subsidy system. And while at the helm he more than quintupled his company’s stock value and significantly improved its profitability despite heavy competition.
> 
> I’m struggling to see how that makes him a bad fit for Amtrak.
> 
> I’m not saying that the guy is perfect, but he does bring an impressive resume to the table.


----------



## HGSCS

TiBike, I’ve never been to Train Orders. I haven’t even heard of it until now. I also have absolutely no connection to Amtrak. If I did I would have no problem disclosing it. Any information I have is straight from Google. The only statistics I've given were the revenue numbers for the LSL and CL. If you'd like, I can show you exactly where I found them via a Google search. Just send me a PM.

I perfectly understand that Anderson is not popular. But I’m willing to give him a chance. That’s all. If that makes me a troll, then I guess that I’m a troll. On the other hand, I assumed that this forum had room for different points of view. I now know that a small number of people feel otherwise. Thanks for you candor.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

HGSCS said:


> So you are saying that Anderson has years of experience running a large transportation company that had to navigate the complicated federal subsidy system. And while at the helm he more than quintupled his company’s stock value and significantly improved its profitability despite heavy competition. I’m struggling to see how that makes him a bad fit for Amtrak. I’m not saying that the guy is perfect, but he does bring an impressive resume to the table.


This post is not worded like a discrete opinion based on distinct experiences. It honestly sounds more like a socially engineered public relations spin post.



HGSCS said:


> TiBike, I’ve never been to Train Orders. I haven’t even herd of it until now. I also have absolutely no connection to Amtrak. If I did I would have no problem disclosing it. Any information I have is straight from Google. I perfectly understand that Anderson is not popular. I’m willing to give him a chance. That’s all. If that makes me a troll, then I guess that I’m a troll. On the other hand, I assumed that this forum had room for different points of view. I now know that a small number of people feel otherwise. Thanks for you candor.


You seem pretty good at this but you've already exposed some sort of agenda with your narrow topic participation and jarring PR speak. We may not know exactly why you're here, but we can be reasonably certain you're unable or unwilling to be honest and transparent with us.


----------



## HGSCS

Wow. All this because I’ve:
1) Provided publicly available statistics;
2) Pointed out that Anderson has a very good track record leading a large transportation company; and
3) Said that I’m willing to give him a chance.

I didn’t realize just how determined a small minority of people are to avoid listening to alternative points of view. Your Alex Jones style conspiracy theories at least gave me a good laugh. 

If you disagree with me, rather than just engaging in personal attacks, tell me why you disagree. I’m certainly open to other points of view even if you may not be.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

What trains have you ridden? What types of food service have you personally experienced on rail?


----------



## HGSCS

crescent-zephyr said:


> What trains have you ridden? What types of food service have you personally experienced on rail?


I’ve been riding Amtrak since the 1970s. I generally ride four long distance trains each year (west and east) and six or so shorter trips. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I’ve dined using just about every dining option Amtrak offers.


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## crescent-zephyr

Yeah a vague answer like that doesn’t really help your cause ha. 

So do you miss the PPC cars? Miss the wine tastings? Miss the slumber coaches?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

HGSCS said:


> Wow. All this because I’ve:
> 1) Provided publicly available statistics;
> 2) Pointed out that Anderson has a very good track record leading a large transportation company; and
> 3) Said that I’m willing to give him a chance.


You didn't merely post your position and then move on to other topics while waiting for the next update to drop. Instead you began a busy and targeted campaign to mock dissenters and rally supporters for Amtrak's decision to expand contemporary dining. You even waxed poetic about the exploits and accomplishments of the top brass. Not in an organic building block fashion but in more of a predefined boardroom talking point manner. This sort of content sticks out like a sore thumb on a simple fan forum.



HGSCS said:


> I didn’t realize just how determined a small minority of people are to avoid listening to alternative points of view. Your Alex Jones style conspiracy theories at least gave me a good laugh. If you disagree with me, rather than just engaging in personal attacks, tell me why you disagree. I’m certainly open to other points of view even if you may not be.


All of your points have been heard. Nobody is censoring your posts. You're not even adding anything new at this point. It's just the same basic points being regurgitated with different wording. 



HGSCS said:


> I’ve been riding Amtrak since the 1970s. I generally ride four long distance trains each year (west and east) and six or so shorter trips. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I’ve dined using just about every dining option Amtrak offers.


Why don't you try posting some detailed trip reports from your favorite long distance routes. Maybe include some cherished train related photos and videos. I'm sure you have tons of content to draw from over the last half-century of routine Amtrak travel. An average of ten trips per year should be more than enough for several amazing stories.


----------



## ehbowen

For crying out loud, I'm lucky to be able to take ONE trip a year, and I've got several trip reports, stories and photos up on this site.


----------



## HGSCS

ehbowen said:


> For crying out loud, I'm lucky to be able to take ONE trip a year, and I've got several trip reports, stories and photos up on this site.


I see. Because I haven’t posted “several trip reports, stories and photos” within 24 hours of joining I should be mocked.

I must say, the hostility here was very unexpected. I didn’t realize that merely wanting to give Anderson a chance would subject one to repeated personal attacks. At least now I know. I’m not going to feed those trolls from here on out.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

HGSCS said:


> I see. Because I haven’t posted “several trip reports, stories and photos” within 24 hours of joining I should be mocked.
> 
> I must say, the hostility here was very unexpected. I didn’t realize that merely wanting to give Anderson a chance would subject one to repeated personal attacks. At least now I know. I’m not going to feed those trolls from here on out.



The issue is that you have ONLY posted about Anderson. How about joining in on other topics WITHOUT mentioning Anderson or Amtrak management if you really are a rail fan. Show us what you know about trains, routes. Tell us about your personal experiences. There are a lot in non-management discussions on AU.


----------



## HGSCS

AmtrakBlue said:


> The issue is that you have ONLY posted about Anderson. How about joining in on other topics WITHOUT mentioning Anderson or Amtrak management if you really are a rail fan. Show us what you know about trains, routes. Tell us about your personal experiences. There are a lot in non-management discussions on AU.


I didn’t realize that was requirement for the first few hours of forum membership. My apologies.


----------



## ehbowen

I did not realize that you only joined on Tuesday. My apologies. But for those of us who have for some time now been watching the not-so-slow-motion train wreck which has been Amtrak under Anderson, "giving him a chance" essentially means standing back and watching everything that is still unique and enjoyable about the Amtrak experience be destroyed. 

Question: How many rail fans in the 1980s had to plead, "Just give him a chance!" after Graham Claytor took the reins?


----------



## HGSCS

I definitely appreciate the concern over Anderson. As I have said earlier, only time will tell if his ideas are good or bad. I’m definitely concerned for long distance trains, as I mentioned in the WSJ video thread.

Seriously, people. I’m open to genuine discussion. It’s the personal attacks without discussion that I can do without. I was surprised that a couple of members felt so entitled to do that so quickly with a new forum member. 

As for Contemporary Dining, I challenge those who disagree with me to tell me why I am wrong from a business perspective - not just your personal preference. (I prefer a traditional dining car too!). How has it impacted ridership? How has it impacted operational losses? How has it impacted Congressional funding? This is what matters. The personal attacks are just a distraction from what could be an informative discussion.


----------



## Ryan

While I’m in reasonable alignment with your thoughts on Contemporary Dining, your commentary on “real railfans” undercuts your complaints about personal attacks. 

You may find your message more well received if you lay off attacking folks about what it means to be a railfan and stick to the solid factual ground you’re on, particularly as you’re delivering an unpopular (but true, in my opinion) take on what’s going on at Amtrak.


----------



## lordsigma

HGSCS said:


> I definitely appreciate the concern over Anderson. As I have said earlier, only time will tell if his ideas are good or bad. I’m definitely concerned for long distance trains, as I mentioned in the WSJ video thread.
> 
> Seriously, people. I’m open to genuine discussion. It’s the personal attacks without discussion that I can do without. I was surprised that a couple of members felt so entitled to do that so quickly with a new forum member.
> 
> As for Contemporary Dining, I challenge those who disagree with me to tell me why I am wrong from a business perspective - not just your personal preference. (I prefer a traditional dining car too!). How has it impacted ridership? How has it impacted operational losses? How has it impacted Congressional funding? This is what matters. The personal attacks are just a distraction from what could be an informative discussion.


If one does a year to year comparison there are drops in both the capitol limited and lake shore while some other trains have an increase so far this year. Granted you have to look a few long distance train ridership over a multi year period to get the picture as there are also many others factors that can affect ridership - for one the lake shore had a period last year where there was no New York section and you also have to figure in longer term outages due to nature or other incidents that can have a big effect on a once a day trains ridership. I guess they probably measure success by an equation: does the reduction in costs associated with contemporary dining pay for any reduction in ridership and then some or not. If the former is the case they probably consider it successful. I am disappointed but not surprised by the changes - most of my frustration is for the employeess who will be affected. Contemporary dining could be acceptable if some changes were made to improve the presentation and experience in the car - preordering before a trip would also be a big enhancement to help with stocking issues, but no improvements will help out any of the laid off employeees - and there are some great employees among that group that I have personally been served by in the diner. I am not defending the changes, merely trying to be open to them as I still do enjoy the train regardless of the food and flying isn’t really an option for me, but I do feel bad for the employees and hope they make some improvements to the model along with the expansion - it probably would have been better for them to make some further improvements this year on the capitol and lake shore before expanding it.


----------



## HGSCS

Ryan said:


> You may find your message more well received if you lay off attacking folks about what it means to be a railfan and stick to the solid factual ground you’re on, particularly as you’re delivering an unpopular (but true, in my opinion) take on what’s going on at Amtrak.


A very fair point. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that if someone stops riding a train solely because of Contemporary Dining, they are obviously a "fan" of the past rather than the present.


----------



## HGSCS

lordsigma said:


> most of my frustration is for the employeess who will be affected. Contemporary dining could be acceptable if some changes were made to improve the presentation and experience in the car - preordering before a trip would also be a big enhancement to help with stocking issues, but no improvements will help out any of the laid off employeees - and there are some great employees among that group that I have personally been served by in the diner.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. The biggest struggle I have with Contemporary Dining is the loss of employees. I know that Congress' mandate can't be ignored, but I can't help but feel for them on a personal level. It is not going to be easy for these employees to find comparable jobs in the service industry that pay as well.

I also would like to see the ability to reserve a meal prior to your trip - something similar to what American Airlines does for first class meals. I've even been able to pre-order a rather nice "chef-inspired meal" as an economy class passenger. (see. e.g.: https://www.airtransat.com/en-US/Tr...nflight-services/Chef-s-Menu-by-Daniel-Vezina ) 

I like the peace of mind knowing that I don't need to worry about meals being sold out and that I will get my first choice.


----------



## tricia

dogbert617 said:


> I'm almost tempted to try to do an Atlanta trip on Crescent before September 30, as I'd never ridden that route before. And also, due to the fact it'd allow me to have a dining meal (s) while on the Crescent at least once.
> 
> My question is if I'm traveling south on #19(this question is for those MORE familiar with regular train operations on Crescent, and have ridden it a LOT), is the first serving time for breakfast early enough so that one could get a meal in, before arriving in Atlanta? Due to my work schedule IF I go through with this trip, I would ride the Cardinal to Crescent (transfer in Charlottesville, VA), then fly back one way from Atlanta's airport to Chicago. Yay for the fact one way flights from Atlanta back to Chicago, look pretty affordable ($80ish).



Certainly time for breakfast southbound before Atlanta. I've several times boarded the Crescent southbound at Toccoa (two hours from Atlanta), and even if the train's on time can generally go get breakfast shortly after settling in on the train. Do allow plenty of time between scheduled arrival in Atlanta and your flight. The Crescent has typically been more likely to be late, and generally much later northbound at Atlanta than southbound, but delays of an hour or more southbound are not uncommon.


----------



## NativeSon5859

This has been confirmed by a friend at the NOL crew base. As of October 1, no more full service dining cars east of the Mississippi.


----------



## JoeBas

Devil's Advocate said:


> When people say they're done riding Amtrak I tend to take them at their word.



Nope, I'm totally phonying it up up in here. So much that I took the time to create a phony screenshot!!!


----------



## JoeBas

HGSCS said:


> When it comes to boycotting the train over Contemporary Dining, the priority is food and not the train ride itself.



This is so myopic a view that I think my optometrist sensed a disturbance in the force... 

The contemporary dining is the end of a long train of abuses (if you'll pardon the pun) that have been heaped on the riding public, with no corresponding change in fares, resulting in a consistently declining value proposition with no end in sight. Straw, meet camel's back.

But you go on ahead with your Spinmaster Speak, trying to define who is and isn't a "real fan", to an audience that can see right through you. At least it keeps you from spending your time doing more damage somewhere else.


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## dlagrua

The only thing that can reverse this is if ridership drastically drops but wait, then Anderson can say see no one rides these LD trains, I told you so! The deal that Boardman made with congress two years ago now supports Anderson's plan. We need to save the dining cars not just for the passengers but for the many hard working people who staff them. These are people of modest means who are just trying to support their families. Does anyone care about them?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Well with that line of thinking we should still have towers at every grade crossing for signal men to manually activate... they were hard working men trying to feed their families too!


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## KMSAlex

I agree with crescent-zephyr. Amtrak is not a jobs program, if anything I would support any way they could try to circumvent union rules to hire lower cost labor in the dinners. 
This coming from a guy who'd love to go to work for Amtrak after I finish my current career.


----------



## flitcraft

I have to say that, for me, invoking Anderson's Delta tenure doesn't make me feel better about the future of Amtrak as a rider. I used to be a frequent flyer of Delta, but the endless cutbacks made me finally give that up--now I just burn the miles I've accumulated. The so-called mileage plan is now just a dollars plan, the seat pitch has shrunk markedly, and it's been hard to burn miles, even at the deflated value of my miles--or SkyPesos, as flyertalk denizens have dubbed them. Free baggage checking-- ha, ha, ha, and lose another opportunity to gouge the passenger? What improvements have there been in recent years for me as a traveler? None whatever. I've transferred most of my air travel to Alaska and its partners--though Alaska is not perfect, merely the best of a bad lot as I see it. The consolidated airline industry is an example of what happens when real competition in an industry vanishes--and it's never good for the consumer. 

So color me skeptical that an airline executive's background in making an airline profitable is good news for the future of Amtrak. The structure of the US airline industry today guarantees profits. Even the idiots at United--with all of their public relations disasters--are hugely profitable.


----------



## jebr

KMSAlex said:


> if anything I would support any way they could try to circumvent union rules to hire lower cost labor in the dinners.



This is exactly the wrong way to go about cost-cutting. A "race to the bottom" on wages and benefits is not a way Amtrak (or any agency, frankly) to cut costs. On-board staffing is a full-time job, with overnights spent away from home and often little ability to balance a second job to make ends meet even if their hours were limited. There's also very little ability, especially with timekeeping issues, to have truly day-staff employees staffing trains effectively.

I'm not opposed to finding ways to reduce staffing overall and ensuring that any staff that need to be cut are able to transition into another job with a similar quality of life. Perhaps Amtrak pays for further education for staff members no longer needed so that they can get skills Amtrak or other industries need. But this idea that we should save money by simply cutting wages is, frankly, terrible.


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## crescent-zephyr

For a short time, Amtrak had a recipe for loyal passengers. A great guest rewards program where they actually rewarded passengers with free trips. Not this so many dollars equals so many points that converts back to so many dollars. 

Wine tastings on the starlight , builder, and lake shore. The parlor cars. The enhanced dining on some trains. That was really a great era of rail travel in the USA.

Now that era came after the simplified dining service, which wasn’t much better than contemporary dining. So there is still hope.....


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jebr said:


> Perhaps Amtrak pays for further education for staff members no longer needed so that they can get skills Amtrak or other industries need.



Ummm..... wow. Don’t Amtrak chefs have to be graduates of culinary schools?


----------



## chakk

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Now that's a neat looking container/cooker! My only concern for use on the train is the voltage draw; could it trip the car's breakers?



The FAQ on the website says the device draws 45 watts (0.5 amps). So this will not trip the circuit breakers in an Amtrak car -- perhaps unless every passenger in the car is using one simultaneously.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

KMSAlex said:


> I would support any way they could try to circumvent union rules to hire lower cost labor in the dinners.


&


jebr said:


> This is exactly the wrong way to go about cost-cutting.


Not to mention that it's illegal to actively undermine state and federal labor laws. It's rather disappointing but not terribly surprising to see working class folks promoting attacks on other workers out of misplaced loyalty and spite.


----------



## OBS

crescent-zephyr said:


> Ummm..... wow. Don’t Amtrak chefs have to be graduates of culinary schools?


No...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

OBS said:


> No...



Oh yeah I found it on Amtrak’s site... it’s under “preferred qualifications” but not required.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

JoeBas said:


> The contemporary dining is the end of a long train of abuses (if you'll pardon the pun) that have been heaped on the riding public, with no corresponding change in fares, resulting in a consistently declining value proposition with no end in sight. Straw, meet camel's back.



At least to me, its nothing but a hidden perk. I think back on the few Amtrak ads I have seen. They all focus on the western scenery that _might_ be outside your train car window. I have never seen an Amtrak ad that focused on the "first class" experience of Sleeper class on the LD routes. Nothing about waiting in a ClubAcela lounge while waiting and being sent directly down to the your platform at the appropriate time (contrasting standing in a long, slow moving line at an airport). 

With this, nothing about the on-board dining service. So, all Amtrak is taking away, is something that few, if any, "first timers" would even expect. IMHO, more people know about the snack peanuts one use to get on a flight, than know about Amtrak dining experiences, and yet people still fly.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Used to get? You haven’t been on Southwest lately!!! Ha. 

All the major airlines still give out snacks.


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## seat38a

A big chunk of members on here complain about the cost of the train tickets, yet advocate for employee wages that are high and with good benefits. I'm reading a lot of Amtrak pays for this and that yet cost of the train ticket is the biggest gripe on this forum. 

How about we cut the inclusive dining with the sleeper ticket, increase the price of the sleeper, get rid of the senior discount (All discounts), increase the cost of the coach ticket and use the savings and increase in ticket prices (With a guarantee written into law) to pay rest of the train crew higher wages and better benefits?

It's not a problem specific to this forum, happens in the aviation forums as well. Everyone wants cheap tickets and also think flight attendants should all get fat pay and benefit packages.

Before talking about the race to the bottom, I think we need to reflect on our own actions and attitudes that contribute to the race (Not just Amtrak).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

To be fair, Amtrak employees and flight attendants are not getting rich. They are paid an actual living wage and are provided with benefits. Something that all 40 hour per week employees should be able to say.


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## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> To be fair, Amtrak employees and flight attendants are not getting rich. They are paid an actual living wage and are provided with benefits. Something that all 40 hour per week employees should be able to say.


I get that. My point is, you can't always want cheap cheap cheap and expect employees to not take a hit.


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## Ringfinder

My thoughts about the Cardboard lunches, they suck! My wife and I rode the Capital Limited from Toledo to Washington in February of this year in a Roomette. We could not believe we were getting a Box Lunch for our main meal I asked if we were going to get a refund for the meals we usually get while traveling 1st class, they just sort of laughed. Our rear attendant did his best to accommodate all of his passengers, but it was Amtrak who made this decision. After a 9 hr. Layover in Washington waiting on our train to Florida, we boarded the train. The Roomette was a lot better than the trains going out west, but the meals couldn’t hold a candle to the Empire Builder, the Southwest Chief, The California Zephyr. My wife and I will miss traveling out West! We so enjoy seeing our Beautiful west from Chicago to Seattle, Emeryville/San Francisco, LA, Albuquerque and all the States in between! It’s hard to believe that all the riders who ride coach will no longer be able to ride the rails! We can only hope that a new administration in Washington will see the value of Better Train Service in America. 



HGSCS said:


> Permit me to play Devil's advocate here.
> 
> We know that Anderson used the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited as tests for Contemporary Dining. It has now been several months. We also know (or at least strongly believe) that Anderson has decided to expand Contemporary Dining to all overnight trains east of the Mississippi. It is reasonable to infer from this that, despite all of the protestations on this forum, Contemporary Dining has not had an appreciable impact on overall ridership. If this is indeed the case, it's hard to fault Anderson for its expansion to similar trains.
> 
> It is perfectly understandable to be upset over this change. But if you are no longer going to ride a one-night train because of this change, let’s be honest. You were likely never a railfan in the first place. If you think that flying is going to now magically be preferable you are setting yourself up for disappointment. My suspicion is that for all of those people who say that they aren't going to ride the train, the overwhelming majority are going to ride the train. No doubt Anderson has seen this in the airline world. Think about how many people complained vociforously over baggage fees, removal of meals, etc. And yet they still traveled by air. But Amtrak is all about the experience, no? Well... maybe it is. But Anderson now has data to show that the "experience" of Contemporary Dining for one night has not negatively impacted ridership on one-night trains. Or at least that the negative impact on ridership is justified by the savings in the dining car.
> 
> I suppose that this could really just be some part of a big conspiracy to remove long distance trains from the schedule. But if that was the case Anderson would have launched Contemporary Dining system-wide. This has all of the hallmarks of a controlled test and a broader roll out based on the results of that test.
> 
> Am I happy with the decision? No. Will I still travel by train? Yes. No doubt Anderson knows that most people think like me.


----------



## Qapla

I like riding the train - even in coach. I have not clocked near the number of miles as many here. I also do not know all the ins-and-outs of the train business.

That said, there are some things I do not understand. I did some rough calculations based on the Silver Meteor. Figuring that the train is not full when it leaves either terminus, after all, there needs to be seats for the stops along the way, I used Florence, SC as the mid-point and based some calculations from that. 

It seems that if the train consist had 4 sleeper cars and 4 coach cars and carried a "near capacity" load, the train could bring in revenue of around $40,000 per trip. If they are losing money, how much does it cost to operate that train?!?

If they are losing money because they are not full, then I do not see how cutting service will gain passengers ... adding services might be a better idea -


----------



## dogbert617

Qapla said:


> I like riding the train - even in coach. I have not clocked near the number of miles as many here. I also do not know all the ins-and-outs of the train business.
> 
> That said, there are some things I do not understand. I did some rough calculations based on the Silver Meteor. Figuring that the train is not full when it leaves either terminus, after all, there needs to be seats for the stops along the way, I used Florence, SC as the mid-point and based some calculations from that.
> 
> It seems that if the train consist had 4 sleeper cars and 4 coach cars and carried a "near capacity" load, the train could bring in revenue of around $40,000 per trip. If they are losing money, how much does it cost to operate that train?!?
> 
> If they are losing money because they are not full, then I do not see how cutting service will gain passengers ... adding services might be a better idea -



Yep, these cuts are totally stupid. I also don't understand cutting the quality, of amenities that passengers highly value. On a slightly different note, I also know it annoyed a lot of passengers(though this cut was easier to swallow I'll admit, since most people are open to reading schedules via a downloadable pdf file), when during the Boardman era of running Amtrak that they decided to stop printing the national timetable, and later on having printing individual schedules available at stations for route(s) serving that station. 

Stopping printing of the national timetable and individual train schedules is one thing, but I think it's a bigger offense IMO(and probably to other passengers too) to downgrade dining car service on trains. If the quality of contemporary dining meals was much better and closer to the level of traditional dining car trains(i.e. Empire Builder, California Zephyr, etc), then maybe those changes to dining car service would be fine to passengers.



tricia said:


> Certainly time for breakfast southbound before Atlanta. I've several times boarded the Crescent southbound at Toccoa (two hours from Atlanta), and even if the train's on time can generally go get breakfast shortly after settling in on the train. Do allow plenty of time between scheduled arrival in Atlanta and your flight. The Crescent has typically been more likely to be late, and generally much later northbound at Atlanta than southbound, but delays of an hour or more southbound are not uncommon.



Thanks, was thinking that looking at #19's schedule, that it'd definitely be possible to get a breakfast meal in before arrival in Atlanta. And I guess my other question is looking at #19's schedule, that one would likely have to transfer in DC from the Capitol Limited to Crescent to have a shot at getting dinner on that train? I'd assume with 8:52pm departure in Charlottesville, that one would narrowly miss the last call for dinner at that time on #19 going south. Also, thanks for mentioning that one hour delays aren't uncommon on the Crescent. Somehow I had a feeling that northbound delays could often be a little worse vs. southbound Crescent delays into Atlanta, but wasn't totally sure on that.


----------



## tonys96

IMHO, cutting meal service sucks. Period.

And, yes, it will keep me, the casual, occasional passenger from using the eastern trains.

I will spend my $$$$ on what I want from my train experience. Part of that is a warm meal in the dining car, with a menu to choose from. Not a boxed meal consisting of who knows what. With a menu, I can choose my entire plate of food, in a prefab box, I get what someone else chose for me. Not the way I will spend my hard earned $$$.

If the boxed meals go system wide, no more overnight trips for me.

If that makes me "not a railfan" in the eyes of someone else, so be it.

C'est le vie.


----------



## tricia

dogbert617 said:


> Thanks, was thinking that looking at #19's schedule, that it'd definitely be possible to get a breakfast meal in before arrival in Atlanta. And I guess my other question is looking at #19's schedule, that one would likely have to transfer in DC from the Capitol Limited to Crescent to have a shot at getting dinner on that train? I'd assume with 8:52pm departure in Charlottesville, that one would narrowly miss the last call for dinner at that time on #19 going south. Also, thanks for mentioning that one hour delays aren't uncommon on the Crescent. Somehow I had a feeling that northbound delays could often be a little worse vs. southbound Crescent delays into Atlanta, but wasn't totally sure on that.



The Capitol Ltd doesn't stop in Charlottesville--only transfer option to the Crescent is in Washington.

You can transfer to the southbound Crescent in Charlottesville from the Cardinal, and although you'd be boarding too late for dinner, there are good dinner options near the train station there, along with a long-enough layover time to explore Charlottesville on foot. I once spent a happy few hours there, between Cardinal and Crescent, visiting bookstores, walking and gawking along the pedestrian-only shopping district near the train, and having dinner in a brew pub near the station. 

Both Cardinal-to-Crescent and Cap Ltd-to-Crescent are good choices--depends on what you'd rather do that day.


----------



## Thirdrail7

seat38a said:


> I get that. My point is, you can't always want cheap cheap cheap and expect employees to not take a hit.




The problem with that is what most people (including the upper brass of a lot of consumer supported industries) overlook...and that is value.

If you are eliminating food options....and CUTTING the prices like you did on the STAR, I'm pretty sure most people would look at it differently. However, what are the actual passengers getting for their sacrifice other than "well, you costs didn't go up," or "be lucky you have anything." 

You're paying the same level of pricing for a diminishing product....and that is when people start looking at "value." What am I getting for this price? Is this worth the bang for my buck? Are there other options? If you eliminate the experience and the memories (because you're probably not in a rush or expected to be on time), what do people have to look forward to?

As for your position on labor costs, it is one thing for employees to become displaced or laid off (even though the fast act specifically says there should be no layoffs). It is another thing when you diminish the potential of employees by undercutting the ones that remain. There is a reason why OBS has such a high turnover as great deal of their time away from home is no longer compensated.

You get what you pay for.


----------



## neroden

Qapla said:


> It seems that if the train consist had 4 sleeper cars and 4 coach cars and carried a "near capacity" load, the train could bring in revenue of around $40,000 per trip. If they are losing money, how much does it cost to operate that train?!?


That train makes money hand over fist. It's highly profitable.

Amtrak's accounting is essentially fraudulent. What they're doing is "allocating" system overhead costs to the train in order to generate phony "losses". This isn't in dispute at this point; everyone who's analyzed the accounting agrees. Amtrak's fundamental financial problem is that it isn't running enough trains to cover the system overhead -- this is a recurring problem with most forms of transportation, which is why it makes sense for the government to just pay for the system overhead out of taxes.

But just so you know, the Silver Meteor is wildly profitable. All honest accounting shows it.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

HGSCS said:


> I also would like to see the ability to reserve a meal prior to your trip - something similar to what American Airlines does for first class meals. I've even been able to pre-order a rather nice "chef-inspired meal" as an economy class passenger. (see. e.g.: https://www.airtransat.com/en-US/Tr...nflight-services/Chef-s-Menu-by-Daniel-Vezina )
> 
> I like the peace of mind knowing that I don't need to worry about meals being sold out and that I will get my first choice.



That certainly sounds like the beginning of a very good idea, but in looking at those menus, that's not the type of pre-prepared meals I want. For breakfast, I am a pancake or RR French toast type of person, and not so much into spinach omelets and goat cheese crepes. Likewise for dinner, goat cheese (a theme here?) and leek Shepard's pie, or duck lasagna, are not what I crave even when I am going first class. Give me a nice steak, chicken with a good sauce on it, or even a well executed hamburger. 

Unfortunately, I don't think any of the meals I would want, work well being served in a box. Maybe just a baloney sandwich for dinner?


----------



## neroden

lordsigma said:


> If one does a year to year comparison there are drops in both the capitol limited and lake shore while some other trains have an increase so far this year. Granted you have to look a few long distance train ridership over a multi year period to get the picture as there are also many others factors that can affect ridership - for one the lake shore had a period last year where there was no New York section


Huge damage to ridership from that. It was widely reported, front page NYT news... but the restoration of service wasn't reported. There are still people who don't realize the train is running. Whatever Operations thought, it was an error because it was a public relations disaster. You can't let Operations tell you how to run your railroad; they're blinkered.



> and you also have to figure in longer term outages due to nature or other incidents that can have a big effect on a once a day trains ridership. I guess they probably measure success by an equation: does the reduction in costs associated with contemporary dining pay for any reduction in ridership and then some or not.



I seriously doubt that they're anywhere near that competent. Amtrak is absolutely notoriously bad at accounting, and that's an accounting problem. Reduction in ridership and revenue operates on a time lag from reduction in service quality, as you know. I doubt that Amtrak even knows whether this move was marginally-profitable or marginallly-loss-making. I expect that it was marginally loss-making, just because of the loss of sales to coach passengers.



> If the former is the case they probably consider it successful. I am disappointed but not surprised by the changes - most of my frustration is for the employeess who will be affected. Contemporary dining could be acceptable if some changes were made to improve the presentation and experience in the car - preordering before a trip would also be a big enhancement to help with stocking issues,


Yes, they need to stop running out of things. And selling meals to coach customers is pretty much essential. They've been throwing away profits.



> but no improvements will help out any of the laid off employeees - and there are some great employees among that group that I have personally been served by in the diner. I am not defending the changes, merely trying to be open to them as I still do enjoy the train regardless of the food and flying isn’t really an option for me, but I do feel bad for the employees and hope they make some improvements to the model along with the expansion - it probably would have been better for them to make some further improvements this year on the capitol and lake shore before expanding it.


Certainly.


----------



## Barb Stout

crescent-zephyr said:


> For a short time, Amtrak had a recipe for loyal passengers. A great guest rewards program where they actually rewarded passengers with free trips. Not this so many dollars equals so many points that converts back to so many dollars.
> 
> Wine tastings on the starlight , builder, and lake shore. The parlor cars. The enhanced dining on some trains. That was really a great era of rail travel in the USA.
> 
> Now that era came after the simplified dining service, which wasn’t much better than contemporary dining. So there is still hope.....


What was the guest reward plan characteristics before and when did they change to the current rendition?


----------



## Rasputin

dogbert617 said:


> I'm almost tempted to try to do an Atlanta trip on Crescent before September 30, as I'd never ridden that route before. And also, due to the fact it'd allow me to have a dining meal (s) while on the Crescent at least once.


I would certainly recommend a trip from Washington to New Orleans on the Crescent. I don't get real excited about just Washington to Atlanta because most of the trip is at night. If you can only do a trip over part of the route I would prefer to go between Atlanta and New Orleans in either direction.


----------



## Barb Stout

seat38a said:


> A big chunk of members on here complain about the cost of the train tickets, yet advocate for employee wages that are high and with good benefits. I'm reading a lot of Amtrak pays for this and that yet cost of the train ticket is the biggest gripe on this forum.
> 
> How about we cut the inclusive dining with the sleeper ticket, increase the price of the sleeper, get rid of the senior discount (All discounts), increase the cost of the coach ticket and use the savings and increase in ticket prices (With a guarantee written into law) to pay rest of the train crew higher wages and better benefits?
> 
> It's not a problem specific to this forum, happens in the aviation forums as well. Everyone wants cheap tickets and also think flight attendants should all get fat pay and benefit packages.
> 
> Before talking about the race to the bottom, I think we need to reflect on our own actions and attitudes that contribute to the race (Not just Amtrak).


I can't say that for being a forum member for a few months now that I have seen "a good chunk" of people complaining about the prices. I have seen a few folks mention going coach because they can't afford a sleeper, but I don't consider that a complaint.


----------



## keelhauled

I guess I don’t see food changes/cutbacks/whatever you call them as being the death knell for long distance trains. After all, what do they have going for them to begin with? Frequently late, generally no faster than road travel and obviously nothing close to air, inconvenient calling times at many stations, limited frequencies, often times marginal station facilities and locations, and fares that are in general not exactly frugal. It seems that most Amtrak travel is in spite of its qualities, not because. 

So while I don’t doubt that there is a certain subset of riders who won’t travel without the dining car, I would wager that the majority of the market would continue to ride. I expect Amtrak management sees it similarly, and furthermore thinks that whatever customers they lose can be replaced by both the natural expansion of the market with a growing population, as well as those people who do not have the memory of food service as it was previously executed.


----------



## Barb Stout

tonys96 said:


> IMHO, cutting meal service sucks. Period.
> 
> And, yes, it will keep me, the casual, occasional passenger from using the eastern trains.
> 
> I will spend my $$$$ on what I want from my train experience. Part of that is a warm meal in the dining car, with a menu to choose from. Not a boxed meal consisting of who knows what. With a menu, I can choose my entire plate of food, in a prefab box, I get what someone else chose for me. Not the way I will spend my hard earned $$$.
> 
> If the boxed meals go system wide, no more overnight trips for me.
> 
> If that makes me "not a railfan" in the eyes of someone else, so be it.
> 
> C'est le vie.


Last year my sister and I took the Lakeshore Limited after boxed meal "Contemporary Dining" was introduced. We did have a choice of what was in the box, although I don't remember how many choices there were. We also got a complimentary "glass" (actually, plastic to avoid breakage) of wine. We were staying in a roomette. I'm not fussy about food and so I didn't really notice a big difference between the meals in the dining car on the SWC which we also took that same trip and the boxed meals. I would much rather eat boxed meals than having to get off the train in the middle of the night in Kansas to be bustituted to Albuquerque. The latter would probably be a deal-breaker for me as I live in ABQ and go east to visit relatives every summer.


----------



## Barb Stout

keelhauled said:


> I guess I don’t see food changes/cutbacks/whatever you call them as being the death knell for long distance trains. After all, what do they have going for them to begin with? Frequently late, generally no faster than road travel and obviously nothing close to air, inconvenient calling times at many stations, limited frequencies, often times marginal station facilities and locations, and fares that are in general not exactly frugal. It seems that most Amtrak travel is in spite of its qualities, not because.
> 
> So while I don’t doubt that there is a certain subset of riders who won’t travel without the dining car, I would wager that the majority of the market would continue to ride. I expect Amtrak management sees it similarly, and furthermore thinks that whatever customers they lose can be replaced by both the natural expansion of the market with a growing population, as well as those people who do not have the memory of food service as it was previously executed.


The other things that train travel have going for it that you didn't mention is 1)watching the beautiful scenery (and sometimes ugly, but interesting) without having to worry about watching the traffic instead if you're driving, 2)walking/moving around which you can't do on buses or planes very well and the related 3)not being constrained/pinched/injured by seat and shoulder belts which is why I don't like to drive, 4)meeting congenial fellow travelers which happened only once to me while flying, 5)no changes in air pressure messing with one's sinuses, eyes and ears, and if you are using a sleeper, 6)sleeping in a horizontal position and being rocked to sleep by the motion of the train, (My sister said sleeper nights are the best night sleep she gets.), 7) while also saving the cost of a hotel which in many places is beyond my means while still moving and getting to one's destination. And in addition for me, although I get carsick in cars and buses, it hasn't happened on the train (yet?).

I will definitely still take the train without the dining car, but there does naturally have to be some food available on the train for sustenance. Most of us are not used to going more than 24 hours without food.


----------



## JoeBas

keelhauled said:


> So while I don’t doubt that there is a certain subset of riders who won’t travel without the dining car, I would wager that the majority of the market would continue to ride.



Whack the loyalty program, it'll only cost 3% of the ridership, and the majority will continue to ride. 

Whack the discounts, it'll only cost 3% of the ridership, and the majority will continue to ride. 

Whack the baggage cars, it'll only cost 3% of the ridership, and the majority will continue to ride. 

Whack the flexibility of fares, it'll only cost 3% of the ridership, and the majority will continue to ride. 

Whack the dining cars, it'll only cost 3% of the ridership, and the majority will continue to ride... 

.

.

. 

Hey, why the hell is ridership off 15%???


----------



## Bob Dylan

"I've got an idea Boss! Let's cut our way to Profitability! What could possibly go wrong?"


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## crescent-zephyr

Barb Stout said:


> What was the guest reward plan characteristics before and when did they change to the current rendition?



It was zone based. A roomette in 1 zone was 15,000 points regardless of where I went. It also covered the max occupancy, so I could bring a friend, or travel solo for that 15,000 points. 

For a 3 zone redemption I went from LA to Portland, Portland to Chicago, and Chicago to NYC in a roomette. That was in the days of free wine tastings on all 3 of those trains, and free cheese on the starlight and lake shore, and free champagne on the starlight and builder. Plus the parlor car.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Oddly enough, although I detest most of Amtrak's recent changes, I like this one. If you want to book a sleeper with points, you can do it now for a relatively short distance, and it will be reasonable. For example, under the old system, I could get a sleeper on the Meteor from Philadelphia to Winter Park, Florida, for 15,000 points. I could also get a sleeper on that same train from Philadelphia to Alexandria, Virginia--just a few hours, but it would still be 15,000 points.

With the new system, I can get Philadelphia to Alexandria for just under 6,000 points in a sleeper on the Meteor, and sometimes the cash cost was the same or less than the business class on the basic Regional, so it was a nice treat to do that and have my own room for a few hours, plus dinner in the dining car, which of course would have been ridiculous to do for just a few hours under the old system.

Of course, now with no more dining car, I won't bother, because a picnic in a box is not a treat.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

keelhauled said:


> I expect Amtrak management sees it similarly, and furthermore thinks that whatever customers they lose can be replaced by both the natural expansion of the market with a growing population, as well as those people who do not have the memory of food service as it was previously executed.



I think that’s the problem. Amtrak thinks they can attract millennials with food trucks. Time will tell how that works out for them.


----------



## jis

Millenials is really not the demographic that constitutes a major segment of AutoTrain clientele anyway.


----------



## me_little_me

HGSCS said:


> Let's look at operating costs. Specifically, let's look at the operating profit and losses.
> 
> 
> Mind you, other eastern long distance trains lost less money as well. But that's the point. Contemporary Dining doesn't reverse that overall trend. I freely admit that this is a very shallow look into the overall issue - and that I am probably in over my head here, but it is safe to say that rumors of the demise of these trains were greatly exaggerated.


Shallow look is right. You have provided nothing that indicates what effect C.D. has had on either profit/loss or ridership. Remember, people lost their jobs- it's not just a change in meals. In addition, station agents having nothing to do with dining but having much to do with profit and loss also lost jobs.

Then, again, since Amtrak has been accused for "cooking the books" (in lieu of cooking the food?) about losses and costs of long distance trains.

And nobody expects that suddenly people will stop taking the trains. But as service goes down and prices go up, loss of ridership over a number of years could give Amtrak justification for more cuts until too few people take the train and elimination can be justified. That's how the railroads did it.


----------



## siena1965

I will be booking a ticket for train 97 nyp to orlando soon for travel in feb 2020. should i wait till after oct to see if price will go down with out the dinning car.


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> Millenials is really not the demographic that constitutes a major segment of AutoTrain clientele anyway.


Exactly!


----------



## pennyk

siena1965 said:


> I will be booking a ticket for train 97 nyp to orlando soon for travel in feb 2020. should i wait till after oct to see if price will go down with out the dinning car.



When booking the Silver Meteor, I always book as soon as possible. I usually get the best fare and a choice of rooms. My guess is that the price will not go down after October 1st. It is not losing its dining car per se, it will be transitioning from cooked meals with a chef in the kitchen and contemporary/boxed meals. The prices on the Capitol Limited and Lakeshore Limited did not go down when those trains transitioned.


----------



## Palmland

OBS said:


> Exactly!



Perhaps Amtrak realizes this and is retaining full service dinner for sleeper passengers with a few enhancements. If so, that has to be encouraging compared to the present mediocre service.

And maybe they’re making it less attractive for coach passengers (no meals, no diners or lounge just 1 CCC) that will enable them to add sleepers and attract more premium fare passengers. Next step, sleeper only for the Florida Special A-T(Just adding a little humor).


----------



## jis

Palmland said:


> Perhaps Amtrak realizes this and is retaining full service dinner for sleeper passengers with a few enhancements. If so, that has to be encouraging compared to the present mediocre service.
> 
> And maybe they’re making it less attractive for coach passengers (no meals, no diners or lounge just 1 CCC) that will enable them to add sleepers and attract more premium fare passengers. Next step, sleeper only for the Florida Special A-T(Just adding a little humor).



Carrying on in the same vein those extra Sleepers will of course come from the Southwest Chief which will get the extra Coaches from the AutoTrain to become a Coach only train? [emoji55]


----------



## seat38a

Thirdrail7 said:


> The problem with that is what most people (including the upper brass of a lot of consumer supported industries) overlook...and that is value.
> 
> If you are eliminating food options....and CUTTING the prices like you did on the STAR, I'm pretty sure most people would look at it differently. However, what are the actual passengers getting for their sacrifice other than "well, you costs didn't go up," or "be lucky you have anything."
> 
> You're paying the same level of pricing for a diminishing product....and that is when people start looking at "value." What am I getting for this price? Is this worth the bang for my buck? Are there other options? If you eliminate the experience and the memories (because you're probably not in a rush or expected to be on time), what do people have to look forward to?
> 
> As for your position on labor costs, it is one thing for employees to become displaced or laid off (even though the fast act specifically says there should be no layoffs). It is another thing when you diminish the potential of employees by undercutting the ones that remain. There is a reason why OBS has such a high turnover as great deal of their time away from home is no longer compensated.
> 
> You get what you pay for.



I'd like to see a comparison of rail ticket prices in 1971 adjusted for inflation to todays prices. We had a similar conversation regarding dining car prices a year or so ago and pretty much it was flat when adjusting the prices of the menu on Amtrak History page. Unfortunately I'm having trouble finding historical ticket prices online. "IF" the prices adjusted for inflation is flat or lower today, would you rather they cover their cost by cutting or raising the ticket prices? Keep in mind, labor, maintenance, station agents etc would rather have wages that are inflation++.

I read a good article last year on linkedin regarding how so much of our "Cheap" everything lifestyle is subsidized via gutting labor. Unfortunately I can't find the article to share, but it used Uber/Lift to demonstrate the race to the bottom. It also mentioned blaming Wall Street is the pot calling the kettle black since the same rider, regardless if they know it or not, has their hand in Wall Street via Mutual Funds, Stocks, Bonds, Pensions, Retirement etc that that are part of this race to the bottom. 50%+ of Americans own stocks either directly or indirectly, so with so many of us wanting cheap in our everyday life and high returns on our investment, labor is bound to get hit hard.

Here's a funny video for some, and not so funny for those who are in a similar situation.


----------



## ehbowen

seat38a said:


> I'd like to see a comparison of rail ticket prices in 1971 adjusted for inflation to todays prices. We had a similar conversation regarding dining car prices a year or so ago and pretty much it was flat when adjusting the prices of the menu on Amtrak History page. Unfortunately I'm having trouble finding historical ticket prices online. "IF" the prices adjusted for inflation is flat or lower today, would you rather they cover their cost by cutting or raising the ticket prices? Keep in mind, labor, maintenance, station agents etc would rather have wages that are inflation++.



I have a few ticket price lists from 1971 (and earlier) on my web site, Streamliner Schedules.

Edit To Add: Others have done the math. Basically, you'll find that sleeping car fares have more or less kept pace with inflation (although I would argue that the value of the experience has declined in recent years) while coach fares, both air and rail, are much, much cheaper than they were in the days before airline deregulation. See also this: Train Travel Then and Now: A Comparison of Historic and Modern Pricing.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think that’s the problem. Amtrak thinks they can attract millennials with food trucks. Time will tell how that works out for them.



Lets not forget the GI system of the passengers are a bit more unforgiving than millennials. Can’t wait for all the food poisoning cases.


----------



## Maverickstation

Speaking of the Contemporary Menu, if you look at the Lake Shore Limited's Food Facts page, it appears that some additional options are being offered, including a couple of sandwich choices. The Kosher options (by advanced reservation) are also listed, it includes a pre made omelet for Breakfast, and Chicken or Salmon on the Lunch/Dinner side.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=004A9A03F036225226B4B2CCEC913E81D969E6C81483928D&EV=2

Ken


----------



## AutoTrDvr

jis said:


> Millenials is really not the demographic that constitutes a major segment of AutoTrain clientele anyway.



Indeed. The #1 constituency are the "Snowbirds" flying south for the Winter.... The #2 constituency are families visiting "The Rodent..."


----------



## jis

Maverickstation said:


> Speaking of the Contemporary Menu, if you look at the Lake Shore Limited's Food Facts page, it appears that some additional options are being offered, including a couple of sandwich choices. The Kosher options (by advanced reservation) are also listed, it includes a pre made omelet for Breakfast, and Chicken or Salmon on the Lunch/Dinner side.
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=004A9A03F036225226B4B2CCEC913E81D969E6C81483928D&EV=2
> 
> Ken



That is definitely an interesting improvement.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> That is definitely an interesting improvement.


Has Amtrak even formally announced the non auto train changes? I feel like we're crucifying the changes without even knowing what the expanded program will look like.


----------



## tricia

Maverickstation said:


> Speaking of the Contemporary Menu, if you look at the Lake Shore Limited's Food Facts page, it appears that some additional options are being offered, including a couple of sandwich choices. The Kosher options (by advanced reservation) are also listed, it includes a pre made omelet for Breakfast, and Chicken or Salmon on the Lunch/Dinner side.
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=004A9A03F036225226B4B2CCEC913E81D969E6C81483928D&EV=2
> 
> Ken



Amtrak REALLY needs to update this page. Still shows lamb shank on the menu for the Coast Starlight's PPC.

And it's not very helpful to list the kosher options as though they're part of the regular menu, rather than something you need to order before boarding the train. (You need to click on the menu item to download a PDF before you learn that a) it's kosher, and b) needs to be ordered in advance.)


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## Cho Cho Charlie

tricia said:


> Amtrak REALLY needs to update this page. Still shows lamb shank on the menu for the Coast Starlight's PPC.



Click on the Autotrain, and it appears that all of its food links, are dead links. 

I also find it funny that their "Haagen-Dazs Vanilla Bean Ice Cream" is made with a "Blue Bunny Brand prescooped ice cream ball".


----------



## pennyk

I am on the Silver Meteor right now. Every crew member to whom I have spoken is unhappy about the upcoming change. I have been told that dining car crew with seniority likely will move to the the sleepers, which may bump some sleeping car attendants to coach or they may be furloughed.


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## bretton88

I've seen in a couple of reliable places that The Cardinal will be getting a full diner when these changes take effect. So that's a piece of good news.


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## tommylicious

I've deliberately booked other forms of transportation on any route that serves "contemporary dining". Not gonna ride those unless I get a proper meal, which "contemporary dining" ain't by a mile.


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## Chessie

bretton88 said:


> I've seen in a couple of reliable places that The Cardinal will be getting a full diner when these changes take effect. So that's a piece of good news.



That’s very interesting. I assume the diner will provide contemporary dining service? 

Wonder why not the Star?


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## Winecliff Station

Maverickstation said:


> Speaking of the Contemporary Menu, if you look at the Lake Shore Limited's Food Facts page, it appears that some additional options are being offered, including a couple of sandwich choices. The Kosher options (by advanced reservation) are also listed, it includes a pre made omelet for Breakfast, and Chicken or Salmon on the Lunch/Dinner side.
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=004A9A03F036225226B4B2CCEC913E81D969E6C81483928D&EV=2
> 
> Ken


Some of those pictures look pretty unappetizing.....do they really not cook the “omelette” together with the cheese and veggies in it? Kraft Singles on the side just doesn’t appeal to me.


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## AmtrakBlue

Chessie said:


> That’s very interesting. I assume the diner will provide contemporary dining service?
> 
> Wonder why not the Star?



Probably because the Star offers a less expensive <sleeper> trip which some riders would rather have. They can do this because there is another train that has the same endpoints. Yes I know their routes split off a couple of times and then reconnect.


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## jiml

tricia said:


> Amtrak REALLY needs to update this page. Still shows lamb shank on the menu for the Coast Starlight's PPC.


[in best Homer Simpson voice] Oooo, lamb shank!


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## tricia

jiml said:


> [in best Homer Simpson voice] Oooo, lamb shank!



Only in our dreams now, alas. Ditto the Coast Starlight's PPCs.


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## Rasputin

bretton88 said:


> I've seen in a couple of reliable places that The Cardinal will be getting a full diner when these changes take effect. So that's a piece of good news.


Really?


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## cocojacoby

Well it does appear that they are making improvements to the program. It's not great and far from the dinning experience we are accustomed to, but more appealing than the cold original introduction.

Now someone has to go to the Dollar Store and at least buy some artificial flowers to make the diner atmosphere more pleasant.


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## Manny T

Basic contradiction: Amtrak says its customers know they have other transportation options but pick LD trains for the _experience_:

"Of note, very few LDSL customers report choosing to travel by LDSL trains because of a lack of other transportation options, highlighting the importance of the experience itself.

"The top three reasons our LDSL customers choose Amtrak are the uniqueness of train travel, comfort/relaxation/enjoyment, and a preference not to drive."
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...lanning/Amtrak-Service-Line-Plans-FY20-24.pdf 
(p. 73)

_Highlighting the importance of the experience itself --_ yet Amtak deliberately degrades the customer experience, ostensibly to save money.

Result: customer satisfaction declines:

"CUSTOMER SATISFACTION INDEX (CSI) 
The Customer Satisfaction Index score for LDSL was 70.0, down from FY 2017’s score of 73.9. 
The Amtrak system-wide overall satisfaction score was 77.7, 2.4 points below FY 2017."
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...lanning/Amtrak-Service-Line-Plans-FY20-24.pdf
(p. 75)


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## RebelRider

bretton88 said:


> I've seen in a couple of reliable places that The Cardinal will be getting a full diner when these changes take effect. So that's a piece of good news.



Business Class is going away October 1. Since that was in a split club/dinette, I'd say that car is going away. Seems reasonable it will be replaced with a full sleeper lounge. Certainly have plenty of single level sleeper lounge cars available.


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## Chey

bretton88 said:


> I've seen in a couple of reliable places that The Cardinal will be getting a full diner when these changes take effect. So that's a piece of good news.



Please, where did you see this?


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## F900ElCapitan

Something else I’ve been seeing lately, the Texas Eagle seems to utilizing a full diner instead of the Cross Country Cafe. I’m assuming it’s been pulled so that a few of them can be moved over to the Auto Train. This does seem appropriate since the CCC was serving much closer to a regular diner menu anyway, and it gives the option of using the whole car for food service. 

Now here’s to hoping the Eagle doesn’t switch to contemporary dining...


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## bretton88

Chessie said:


> That’s very interesting. I assume the diner will provide contemporary dining service?
> 
> Wonder why not the Star?


Being that Amtrak has not announced anything formally, It's entirely possible the Star will be getting it's diner back. This to me feels like Amtrak standardizing the product across the eastern LD trains, so I wouldn't be shocked to see the Star get one back too. The Star could be an exception just because if the duplication with the SM, but current Amtrak seems to be focusing on standardizing the experiences across the system.


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## jis

A good indication of what might or might not happen to the Star is to watch how it Sleeper fare buckets are trending in the future. If complementary food for Sleeper is coming back then one would expect fare buckets to become similar to the Meteor.


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## niemi24s

As of just now, Silver Star fare buckets remain unchanged eleven months out.


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## me_little_me

cocojacoby said:


> Well it does appear that they are making improvements to the program. It's not great and far from the dinning experience we are accustomed to, but more appealing than the cold original introduction.
> 
> Now someone has to go to the Dollar Store and at least buy some artificial flowers to make the diner atmosphere more pleasant.


Then add paper plates, plastic cutlery, "Member's Mark" paper napkins, self-serve trash cans, glasses of Ripple wine from jugs, raucous music to discourage sitting around after eating and table cleaning only after the meal time has ended.

Lastly, modify the cars to add pay toilets.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

me_little_me said:


> Then add paper plates, plastic cutlery, "Member's Mark" paper napkins, self-serve trash cans, glasses of Ripple wine from jugs, raucous music to discourage sitting around after eating and table cleaning only after the meal time has ended.



One has to admit, upgrading from box wine to jug wine, is a welcome improvement. 



me_little_me said:


> Lastly, modify the cars to add pay toilets.



Now, we know the real truth as to why they moved the toilets out of the VL-II roomettes! Step one to VL pay toilets.


----------



## Rasputin

RebelRider said:


> Business Class is going away October 1. Since that was in a split club/dinette, I'd say that car is going away. Seems reasonable it will be replaced with a full sleeper lounge. Certainly have plenty of single level sleeper lounge cars available.


So there will be a full table (dining) car to serve as the dining car and lounge car exclusively for the single sleeper on this train. Chances of getting a seat will probably be pretty good.


----------



## iplaybass

Maybe they'll add a second sleeper. [emoji849]


----------



## The Commissioner

As long as Amtrak wants to save money (?) by degrading the First Class value proposition on the eastern long distance trains, why not simply establish a separate level of service that includes the sleeping car room but doesn't include any F&B service? And price it accordingly. I for one can do without a dining car since I can supply my own meal(s) and beverages. The only advantage of the sleeping car room, to me once again, is the privacy and comfort of a flat bed. I'd rather not pay for food that I wouldn't buy, much less eat, even if it was reasonably priced.

I'm surprised that Amtrak doesn't turn to vending machines on those LD trains.


----------



## AutoTrDvr

The Commissioner said:


> As long as Amtrak wants to save money (?) by degrading the First Class value proposition on the eastern long distance trains, why not simply establish a separate level of service that includes the sleeping car room but doesn't include any F&B service? And price it accordingly. I for one can do without a dining car since I can supply my own meal(s) and beverages. The only advantage of the sleeping car room, to me once again, is the privacy and comfort of a flat bed. I'd rather not pay for food that I wouldn't buy, much less eat, even if it was reasonably priced.
> 
> I'm surprised that Amtrak doesn't turn to vending machines on those LD trains.



If the objective is to provide hot food, they'd have to supply a bank of Microwaves (and for those that BYOF and want to heat it up), but I recall where that was a safety issue and they wouldn't allow it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

When I travel on a 4-5 hour flight in domestic first class I get a hot, plated meal served on a table cloth. I get free snacks (cookies, kind bars, fresh fruit, etc.) and I get as much to drink, achahol or non, again served in glassware.


----------



## tonys96

Barb Stout said:


> I can't say that for being a forum member for a few months now that I have seen "a good chunk" of people complaining about the prices. I have seen a few folks mention going coach because they can't afford a sleeper, but I don't consider that a complaint.


I do.


----------



## tonys96

Barb Stout said:


> Last year my sister and I took the Lakeshore Limited after boxed meal "Contemporary Dining" was introduced. We did have a choice of what was in the box, although I don't remember how many choices there were. We also got a complimentary "glass" (actually, plastic to avoid breakage) of wine. We were staying in a roomette. I'm not fussy about food and so I didn't really notice a big difference between the meals in the dining car on the SWC which we also took that same trip and the boxed meals. I would much rather eat boxed meals than having to get off the train in the middle of the night in Kansas to be bustituted to Albuquerque. The latter would probably be a deal-breaker for me as I live in ABQ and go east to visit relatives every summer.


It is not a binary choice between boxed neals east of the Mississippi and a truncated SWC. That is a ludicrous correlation.
Boxed meals did not save the SWC. Ridiculous.


----------



## jiml

tricia said:


> Only in our dreams now, alas. Ditto the Coast Starlight's PPCs.


I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.


"..I remember it well!.." Sigh


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.



I remember ordering it in both directions. I also remember having it on a few other trains like the Empire Builder back when they were doing the “chef inspired” dinners. Those were the days!


----------



## ehbowen

jiml said:


> I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.



It may have changed over the years, but i specifically remember having the lamb shank in the PPC going northbound in April 2014 and southbound in September 2016.


----------



## jis

Yeah, I had never heard of the directional thing about the Lamb Shank before this. I have certainly had it both ways.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The PPC and Builder used to have a really good pasta dish made with Beechers Cheese (they are in the Pike Place market in Seattle). Was quite good.

In the same time frame they served an excellent Mahi Mahi fillet. The Mahi and the lamb shank from that era were the best entrees I’ve had on any train including VIA and various private cars and dinner trains.


----------



## dogbert617

jis said:


> A good indication of what might or might not happen to the Star is to watch how it Sleeper fare buckets are trending in the future. If complementary food for Sleeper is coming back then one would expect fare buckets to become similar to the Meteor.



I can't remember on which thread and which poster mentioned it, but someone compared fares between the Meteor and Star for 2 different cities, which were to the north and south of the part where the Meteor and Star routes split(Savannah to somewhere in NC, can't remember where in that state the routes split). And the crazy thing, was that this poster only discovered that the Star was $7 cheaper to ride, than riding on Meteor! IMO it should be a greater fare difference, as Star riders currently as of now don't have a diner. Hopefully with the news the Cardinal is supposedly going to get a diner back once the business class cars no longer run on Card as of October 1st, maybe for all I know the Star will get a diner(prob contemporary dining if I have to guess) back?



crescent-zephyr said:


> The PPC and Builder used to have a really good pasta dish made with Beechers Cheese (they are in the Pike Place market in Seattle). Was quite good.
> 
> In the same time frame they served an excellent Mahi Mahi fillet. The Mahi and the lamb shank from that era were the best entrees I’ve had on any train including VIA and various private cars and dinner trains.



Wow, so both Builder and Starlight used to have a Beecher's Cheese pasta served in their dining car? And ditto with a mahi mahi fillet, along with a lamb shank(for the latter at least on Starlight, not sure if Builder ever served this per reports I'm hearing on this board)? I always wish I could've ridden Starlight and Builder, before the dining car cutbacks occurred. Ditto with the Pacific Parlour Car before those were all entirely removed, on Starlight.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I remember having the lamb shank on another train, but I can’t remember which one. The Mahi Mahi I had multiple times on the zephyr I know that. 

All of the long distance trains with full
Dining car service had rotating chef inspired meals. The lamb shank was one of those along with short ribs, crab cakes, and others that I can’t remember.


----------



## seat38a

jiml said:


> I believe the lamb shank was only offered in one direction - I'm guessing out of LA, since there was a Washington red that went particularly well with it and typically Washington/Oregon wines were served on the northbound. Arrive for the wine-tasting in the afternoon and stay for dinner. Amtrak had it figured out back then.



It was offered in both directions. The PPC was only stocked from LA for the roundtrip journey according to the LSA so going south, items ran out fast or was already gone before the return trip.


----------



## CameraObscura76

cpotisch said:


> Hi, y'all. I'm just so disappointed by this news that I finally took the time to write and send the following letter to Anderson, Gardner, and Coscia yesterday. I don't think it will make any difference, but at least I can feel like I'm doing _something._
> 
> _Dear Mr. Anderson, Mr. Gardner, Mr. Coscia and Amtrak Board of Directors_
> 
> _My name is Coby Potischman. I am a 17-year-old avid rail fan from New York City and a longtime advocate for Amtrak, as well as a member of the Rail Passenger Association. I am incredibly concerned and disheartened by all of the recent cuts to service and amenities, and particularly the decision to switch to “contemporary” boxed meals on all routes east of the Mississippi after October 1. As a longtime customer and passenger, I ask that you please read this through.
> 
> My family and I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on Amtrak travel over the past several years, simply because it has been an incredibly enjoyable and unique way to travel. However, in recent years, the cuts and degradations to service have made our decision to take Amtrak, instead of the airlines, more and more difficult to justify._
> 
> _Inter-city rail in the U.S. will never be able to compete with a plane in regard to speed. The only way for it to compete is for the overall experience and amenities to be superior._
> 
> _We used to able to check baggage to and from the vast majority of stations. Now, not only are the majority of stations unstaffed, but such routes as the City of New Orleans, Texas Eagle, and Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited, have lost their baggage cars._
> 
> _Until only a few years ago, on virtually all routes, we could get freshly cooked meals (the Cardinal being the only exception), served on actual glassware and China, with unique selections for each region and direction. Now, the handful of routes that do retain full-service dining cars all serve the exact same menu–quite tedious over the course of a long trip–while the ones without offer an extremely limited selection of low-quality meals, if anything at all._
> 
> _I won’t even get into the cuts to Amtrak Guest Rewards, retirement of the Pacific Parlour Cars, increase in ticket prices, loss of flowers and snacks in the sleepers, discontinuation of the AAA and Veterans’ discount, reduction and increased restrictions of the Senior discount, and the tightening of the change and cancellation policy. These are smaller things, but they really do add up._
> 
> _At a certain point, any person who has alternatives such as taking a plane, a car, or a bus, will no longer take Amtrak. Meanwhile, the people who either live in places served exclusively by the train, or who are physically unable to take other forms of transport, will be stuck not traveling at all, or suffering through an increasingly expensive, long and uncomfortable ride on the rails._
> 
> _For Amtrak to do well, I believe it has to focus on what can make it best. I know that Food & Beverage service is mandated to turn a profit. However, that mandate was not written with the intent that the service itself has to make money; rather, those services are required to result in Amtrak as a whole being more profitable. Dining cars have always been loss leaders. The operation itself loses some amount of money, however, if it gets enough people to ride the train, it ends up paying for itself. Additionally, if need be, more money could simply be allocated from the sleepers to the diners, since the former is not required to turn a profit._
> 
> _Every year, my family and I take a trip to South Florida to stay with my grandparents. We first took the train (in a Roomette) in 2011, and absolutely loved it. Since then, we have taken the Silver Service in at least one direction, almost every year, even after the Silver Star lost its dining car in 2015. The continued availability of the dining car on the Meteor is what has made it possible for us to continue taking the train for those trips._
> 
> _Between these rides to Florida, multiple cross country trips, and countless other shorter day and overnight rides, we have spent more than 600 hours in sleepers, and many thousands of dollars on the tickets. And even after experiencing countless rude employees, numerous train cancellations, and even a derailment in Georgia last year, we have continued to ride and advocate for Amtrak._
> 
> _But as prices increase, the meal service is degraded, checked baggage service becomes less and less available, and so on, justifying these trips has become incredibly difficult. We have tried the boxed meal service on the Lake Shore Limited multiple times, and I can say that if it is implemented on the Silver Meteor, we will no longer be able to take Amtrak to visit my grandparents. I have many friends who previously would take multiple massive cross country trips each year. But without full meal service on any route between Chicago and the East Coast, such trips are no longer feasible for them._
> 
> _There aren’t just issues for angry railfans who want to keep the status quo at all costs._
> 
> _These are issues for all the people with dietary restrictions, since limited menus and food prepared ahead of time offer little to no choice of ingredients, and are often extremely high in sugar._
> 
> _These are issues for people who care about the environment; that don’t want to throw away cardboard boxes, plastic wrappers and bags, and disposable silverware at every meal._
> 
> _These are issues for the people who can no longer afford their tickets, or who have to travel in coach, where they no longer have access to a dining car at all._
> 
> _These are issues for people who live in remote towns without any other form of transit, who would see their rail service cut and/or replaced by buses, as you proposed this February._
> 
> _These are issues for the people who take Amtrak to move, but can no longer bring nearly as many of their belongings due to the loss of checked baggage.
> 
> These are issues for the thousands of station employees and OBS staff that work hard to make passengers’ trips much more enjoyable, yet are losing their jobs._
> 
> _Amtrak was not created with the goal of turning a profit. It was created when the private railroads of the time could NOT turn a profit, and the government saw the need to fund and retain adequate passenger rail service. In fact, Amtrak has explicitly stated in the “National Fact Sheets” of 2016, 2017, and 2018, that “No country in the world operates a passenger rail system without some form of public support for capital costs and/or operating expenses.”_
> 
> _I had been really hoping to take a very long round-trip coast to coast train trip before I head off to college next year. This would be a multi-thousand dollar trip with connections in six different cities (Chicago, Portland, Oregon, Emeryville/San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, and Portland, Maine), involving eight nights onboard, and sleeping accommodations the whole way. This would be the ultimate way for me to really see the country and enjoy the National Network while I still have the time to do so, before this new chapter of my life._
> 
> _Yet as a vegetarian, if more of these routes lose their dining service, it would legitimately be impossible to spend that much time onboard with that sort of meal selection. And as I said earlier, I know many people who are in a similar position. It’s not just about comfort or overall luxury; this sort of service simply isn’t doable for many people and serves to make train travel completely obsolete._
> 
> _I hope you consider these points in your work to improve Amtrak._
> 
> _Thank you so much for reading.
> 
> - Coby Potischman_




Nicely done, Coby. You’ve inspired me to write my own letter. I do appreciate your point you brought up about being a vegetarian as I am one also.


----------



## Qapla

dogbert617 said:


> I can't remember on which thread and which poster mentioned it, but someone compared fares between the Meteor and Star for 2 different cities, which were to the north and south of the part where the Meteor and Star routes split(Savannah to somewhere in NC, can't remember where in that state the routes split). And the crazy thing, was that this poster only discovered that the Star was $7 cheaper to ride, than riding on Meteor! IMO it should be a greater fare difference, as Star riders currently as of now don't have a diner



I checked to see and I found something interesting - that begs another question ...

The SM and SS both run from Savannah, Ga to Kissimmee, Fl. *There is a $20 price difference between the two if riding in a Roomette.* Also, the SM stops in Jesup, Ga while the SS does not make that stop - other than that they make all the other same stops and travel the same path.

They also travel the same path between Rocky Mount, NC and New York Penn. On this route, the only difference seems to be that the SM stops in Fredricksburg, VA and the SS does not. However, this time, not only is there a difference in the price between the two trains, there is a price difference in the direction 

Again, I used the price if riding in a Roomette.

The SM is the same price in each direction ... but the SS is $28 more when heading north than it is when heading south. That makes the cost difference between the two trains $60 heading north and $88 heading south.

There does seem to be more than a $7 difference ... but *why does the upper segment of the SS cost $28 more in one direction than it does in the other* while the lower segment of the SS is the same?


----------



## Winecliff Station

CameraObscura76 said:


> Nicely done, Coby. You’ve inspired me to write my own letter. I do appreciate your point you brought up about being a vegetarian as I am one also.



Me as well....you can only eat so much microwave pizza and mac n cheese in one week before you get tired of settling. Especially if you’re over 50.


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## jis

dogbert617 said:


> I can't remember on which thread and which poster mentioned it, but someone compared fares between the Meteor and Star for 2 different cities, which were to the north and south of the part where the Meteor and Star routes split(Savannah to somewhere in NC, can't remember where in that state the routes split). And the crazy thing, was that this poster only discovered that the Star was $7 cheaper to ride, than riding on Meteor! IMO it should be a greater fare difference, as Star riders currently as of now don't have a diner. Hopefully with the news the Cardinal is supposedly going to get a diner back once the business class cars no longer run on Card as of October 1st, maybe for all I know the Star will get a diner(prob contemporary dining if I have to guess) back?


For all you know is based on faulty reasoning based on incomplete data. 

The only meaningful comparison is between same fare buckets. There can always be situations where a specific Meteor is in low fare bucket while the Star on that day is in the highest fare bucket in which case the Star could potentially land up with a higher fare than the Meteor. But that is no indication as to how the fare buckets compares.

Our resident expert who tracks all fare buckets posted in response to my comment about fare bucket changes:

https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/th...effective-october-1.75614/page-11#post-810549

which indicates that at least as of now there is no Contemporary Dining included complementary for Sleepers coming to the Star in the next eleven months.

Cardinal is getting Contemporary Dining. The Star is not, as of the best knowledge that we have today.


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## niemi24s

> . . .*why does the upper segment of the SS cost $28 more in one direction than it does in the other. . .*


 Perhaps the fare difference is due to different fare buckets assigned in each direction. FYI (in case you didn't know it) each sleeper accommodation on each train has five different preassigned fares from which the fare-of-the-day can be chosen.


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## PVD

First Coby, let me say it is great to have you back. A little youthful exuberance goes a long way. When I took early retirement in the electrical industry, I started teaching courses in alternative energy systems and green building concepts in the electrical industry to the young people entering the trade. Why? It is important for young people to understand and embrace how we got here, and it is just as important for older folks to to understand how younger people see the future. Helps keep me young.


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## jiml

seat38a said:


> It was offered in both directions. The PPC was only stocked from LA for the roundtrip journey according to the LSA so going south, items ran out fast or was already gone before the return trip.


That may indeed have been the case. There was also an Asian beef dish that was pretty good (Asian to describe a blend of flavors that may have been Chinese or Japanese, but not clearly either).


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## Barb Stout

tonys96 said:


> It is not a binary choice between boxed neals east of the Mississippi and a truncated SWC. That is a ludicrous correlation.
> Boxed meals did not save the SWC. Ridiculous.


My point was that boxed meals aren't a deal breaker for me, as they are sadly for you, but a truncated SWC would be a deal breaker for me, not that downgrading meals can save routes.


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## JP1822

The more I think about this whole contemporary dining the more I am thinking Amtrak should just divorce the meals from the sleeper fare, and offer contemporary dining for coach and sleeper passengers.....The main reason I say this is that because of the limited options, passengers are being forced to pay (no matter how you slice it) for meal whether they like it or not. Course I doubt if Amtrak would really “lower” the sleeper prices that much even with food divorced out. 

It could also be a “telling” moment for the Viewliner Diner - how many people would really buy meals from the Diner if an option. Probably would also have to make it so that the Diner is for passengers eating and purchasing food in this car. A person trying to “dine in the diner” shouldn’t be relegated back to their room or coach seat if they can’t find a seat due to Sighteers (or those not eating food). It’ alss not a new space for the conductors to hang out in. They can take up space in the non-used kitchen area of the Viewliner Diner.

Just fill the Viewliner Diner with as many boxed meals as they can and then and sell it out and when it sells out, then everyone goes to the Amtrak Cafe for food. If train runs late - get the food while it lasts and when you can. People may want to eat breakfast and late lunch on the Lake Shore. I don’t know. I think with Amtrak making this dining move for all train east of the Mississippi, just go the whole distance. This will then allow the Viewliner Diner to be used as a lounge for all too. 

For the record, if the train has a sleeper, I book sleeper. It is a nice amenity to have the Viewliner Diner for just sleeper car passengers with this contemporary dining (not a fan of the contemporary dining though). There’s more to be desired and some logistical shortcomings that will never be solved, but not going there. I just am surprised that Amtrak is basically “reserving” the VIewliner Diner for sleeping car passengers. 

The Cardinal could use a second sleeper year round. This train turn over a LOT of roomettes in the course of its journey. I can’t say bedrooms, since there are only two and a handicap room. But it is a buy train as it meanders from Chicago to Indy to Cincy to Charlottesville to DC to NYC. It could be made daily. It could be made into the overnight NEC Regional train in the interim till the Night Owl or Federal is reinstated. This train has potential even tri-weekly, Amtrak just refuses to let the bird fly right. Eventually when the Viewliner II sleepers are delivered, have to wonder if the Cardinal goes Superliner and the Capitol Limited goes single level once again.


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## lordsigma

JP1822 said:


> They can take up space in the non-used kitchen area of the Viewliner Diner.


I don't think this area is completely unused with contemporary dining now that hot meals are offered. The meals are stored in this area and the basic preparation and heating of the hot entrees is done in the kitchen of the Diner is it not? Word on the street is that they were also removing the microwaves In the kitchens and replacing them with large convection ovens that could heat multiple entrees at once (and the meals would also come out better in an oven than a micro.)


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## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> I don't think this area is completely unused with contemporary dining now that hot meals are offered. The meals are stored in this area and the basic preparation and heating of the hot entrees is done in the kitchen of the Diner is it not? )



Yes from my observation the contemporary dining food is stored in the kitchen area and the hot entrees are heated there. At lunch on our trip on 48, customers lined up in the kitchen doorway to place their orders and receive their bags of food. Sort of like a food pantry. Got the job done but not real classy. 

I am not clear on just how much of the kitchen area is used for the contemporary dining service.


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## lordsigma

Amtrak has apparently told RPA that the final product that will be rolled out on October 1st to the trains will be "different" than what is offered currently on the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited. Whether just means a menu refresh with new items or if that means real improvements such as a larger amount of choices - and an improved presentation we'll have to wait and see.

While it does not make up for the loss of the employees that will be axed, I think many passengers could accept the service if it includes some improvements such as:
- making sure the pre-prepared meals are of good quality.
- a couple more main entree choices and a periodic refresh of the menu like Acela first class gets.
- more reliable stocking - opportunity to pre-select your meal before the trip would help.
- a lunch menu that includes lighter fare options - even if its just offering some of the same items served in the café car as choices in the contemporary diner for lunch.
- improved breakfast options - breakfast was improved in the most recent refresh but could be further improved - I think if they threw in a couple breakfast entrees like Acela first class has it would be a big improvement.
- an improved presentation of the meals and way you are served - again a similar method to what Acela first does with the trays would be an improvement. there has to be a better way to do it


----------



## Qapla

While I am not a fan of many of the changes Amtrak has made and I can see, from my point of view, better ways to do some of the things, including routes and times ...

All of these changes may not be Amtrak's fault ... since they do not own most of the tracks they run on, it could be that time slots, rate costs and even train sizes could be hampered by the track owners and Amtrak is doing the best they can under the circumstances.



Then again -


----------



## dogbert617

Qapla said:


> I checked to see and I found something interesting - that begs another question ...
> 
> The SM and SS both run from Savannah, Ga to Kissimmee, Fl. *There is a $20 price difference between the two if riding in a Roomette.* Also, the SM stops in Jesup, Ga while the SS does not make that stop - other than that they make all the other same stops and travel the same path.
> 
> They also travel the same path between Rocky Mount, NC and New York Penn. On this route, the only difference seems to be that the SM stops in Fredricksburg, VA and the SS does not. However, this time, not only is there a difference in the price between the two trains, there is a price difference in the direction
> 
> Again, I used the price if riding in a Roomette.
> 
> The SM is the same price in each direction ... but the SS is $28 more when heading north than it is when heading south. That makes the cost difference between the two trains $60 heading north and $88 heading south.
> 
> There does seem to be more than a $7 difference ... but *why does the upper segment of the SS cost $28 more in one direction than it does in the other* while the lower segment of the SS is the same?



Who knows, maybe that $7 difference one day that another person found was based on either Meteor or Star hitting a higher price bucket quicker, than the other train? And discovering this is interesting, since I guess maybe the Star isn't always cheaper for roomettes?



jis said:


> For all you know is based on faulty reasoning based on incomplete data.
> 
> The only meaningful comparison is between same fare buckets. There can always be situations where a specific Meteor is in low fare bucket while the Star on that day is in the highest fare bucket in which case the Star could potentially land up with a higher fare than the Meteor. But that is no indication as to how the fare buckets compares.
> 
> Our resident expert who tracks all fare buckets posted in response to my comment about fare bucket changes:
> 
> https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/th...effective-october-1.75614/page-11#post-810549
> 
> which indicates that at least as of now there is no Contemporary Dining included complementary for Sleepers coming to the Star in the next eleven months.
> 
> Cardinal is getting Contemporary Dining. The Star is not, as of the best knowledge that we have today.



I hear you and Quapa, about this. And yeah, who knows about that other poster who posted that $7 difference somewhere on the route about fares, between the Star and Meteor? Like both of you said, I'll totally concede that could've been that one of those 2 trains had hit a higher fare bucket, while the other hadn't hit a higher bucket yet.

Finally moving away from thinking about fare differences, I am surprised that Amtrak is only reintroducing a (contemporary) diner on Cardinal, buy not yet on Star. Maybe more equipment moves need to be done, before it's restored to Star?


----------



## Katibeth

I traveled from Chicago to Seattle and returned in April/May, 2019 on the Empire Builder (roomette). It was my very first experience with Amtrak, and I was amazed at how good the food was. I had the flat iron steak at each dinner, and it was better than some restaurants. Next year, I plan to travel to Disney World in September, 2020 via Capitol Limited (bedroom - just to try it), Silver Meteor (roomette), and returning on Silver Meteor (roomette) and Cardinal (roomette). Here I thought I would get my flat iron steak again on both segments of the Silver Meteor. Oh well. I've seen the very limited menu on the Capitol Limited, and thought I wouldn't mind it, because I'd be getting a nice meal on the other trains. Mealtime will be a bit of a bummer, but I'll still enjoy the scenery.


----------



## lordsigma

Katibeth said:


> I traveled from Chicago to Seattle and returned in April/May, 2019 on the Empire Builder (roomette). It was my very first experience with Amtrak, and I was amazed at how good the food was. I had the flat iron steak at each dinner, and it was better than some restaurants. Next year, I plan to travel to Disney World in September, 2020 via Capitol Limited (bedroom - just to try it), Silver Meteor (roomette), and returning on Silver Meteor (roomette) and Cardinal (roomette). Here I thought I would get my flat iron steak again on both segments of the Silver Meteor. Oh well. I've seen the very limited menu on the Capitol Limited, and thought I wouldn't mind it, because I'd be getting a nice meal on the other trains. Mealtime will be a bit of a bummer, but I'll still enjoy the scenery.



It may not be the exact same menu as on the Capitol right now when you ride the trains - Amtrak is saying that there will be some changes to contemporary dining along with its expansion to the other trains. Here is hoping they are improvements.


----------



## tricia

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak has apparently told RPA that the final product that will be rolled out on October 1st to the trains will be "different" than what is offered currently on the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited. Whether just means a menu refresh with new items or if that means real improvements such as a larger amount of choices - and an improved presentation we'll have to wait and see.
> 
> While it does not make up for the loss of the employees that will be axed, I think many passengers could accept the service if it includes some improvements such as:
> - making sure the pre-prepared meals are of good quality.
> - a couple more main entree choices and a periodic refresh of the menu like Acela first class gets.
> - more reliable stocking - opportunity to pre-select your meal before the trip would help.
> - a lunch menu that includes lighter fare options - even if its just offering some of the same items served in the café car as choices in the contemporary diner for lunch.
> - improved breakfast options - breakfast was improved in the most recent refresh but could be further improved - I think if they threw in a couple breakfast entrees like Acela first class has it would be a big improvement.
> - an improved presentation of the meals and way you are served - again a similar method to what Acela first does with the trays would be an improvement. there has to be a better way to do it



All good points, to which I'd add one:
- reducing the obscene amount of packaging waste, especially plastic waste.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I agree with lordsigma and tricia on all those points.

The one thing that nobody seems to have mentioned, and the whole point of a dining car to me, is that we will no longer be randomly seated with other people we don't know in a nice setting and be able to have good conversations with people from all over the country and around the world.

I do understand that not everyone liked this, and once in a while a dinner companion could be annoying. But for many of us, it was a window on different worlds and opinions, and one of the rare places where people could come out of their phone-driven, claustrophobic, insular little silos and actually talk, with real speech, with real and intelligent people about all sorts of topics. I had many, many wonderful conversations and meal companions, and only a couple of duds.


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## Rasputin

Mystic River Dragon said:


> The one thing that nobody seems to have mentioned, and the whole point of a dining car to me, is that we will no longer be randomly seated with other people we don't know in a nice setting and be able to have good conversations with people from all over the country and around the world.


That is not true in my experience. The table cars do not have the capacity for everyone to have their own table. When we went to the table car on 48 for breakfast we had to invite ourselves to share a table with some other passengers as there was no open table. At lunch we seated ourselves at an open table but then invited other passengers to join us at our table. We enjoyed meeting and talking with other passengers just like old times.


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## crescent-zephyr

I would also think that in between meal times passengers would have a chance to talk with fellow passengers like in the PPC.


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## bretton88

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak has apparently told RPA that the final product that will be rolled out on October 1st to the trains will be "different" than what is offered currently on the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited. Whether just means a menu refresh with new items or if that means real improvements such as a larger amount of choices - and an improved presentation we'll have to wait and see.
> 
> While it does not make up for the loss of the employees that will be axed, I think many passengers could accept the service if it includes some improvements such as:
> - making sure the pre-prepared meals are of good quality.
> - a couple more main entree choices and a periodic refresh of the menu like Acela first class gets.
> - more reliable stocking - opportunity to pre-select your meal before the trip would help.
> - a lunch menu that includes lighter fare options - even if its just offering some of the same items served in the café car as choices in the contemporary diner for lunch.
> - improved breakfast options - breakfast was improved in the most recent refresh but could be further improved - I think if they threw in a couple breakfast entrees like Acela first class has it would be a big improvement.
> - an improved presentation of the meals and way you are served - again a similar method to what Acela first does with the trays would be an improvement. there has to be a better way to do it


We've heard rumors of Amtrak installing high capacity convection ovens in their diners, so it's quite possible that the next product will be different, the LSL and CL contemporary dining systems where pilot projects, after all. We really won't know until Amtrak puts something out there from their end.


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## neroden

Maverickstation said:


> Speaking of the Contemporary Menu, if you look at the Lake Shore Limited's Food Facts page, it appears that some additional options are being offered, including a couple of sandwich choices. The Kosher options (by advanced reservation) are also listed, it includes a pre made omelet for Breakfast, and Chicken or Salmon on the Lunch/Dinner side.
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=004A9A03F036225226B4B2CCEC913E81D969E6C81483928D&EV=2
> 
> Ken


That would be great, but once again, they aren't listing the full ingredients list. I've written to the Board of Amtrak about this before.

I'm allergic to additives. I can't eat any of this stuff without a full ingredients list.

I think I am going to have to sue them. The full ingredients list is a reasonable accomodation. I will try to start the lawsuit before my next planned trip in September.


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## bretton88

neroden said:


> That would be great, but once again, they aren't listing the full ingredients list. I've written to the Board of Amtrak about this before.
> 
> I'm allergic to additives. I can't eat any of this stuff without a full ingredients list.
> 
> I think I am going to have to sue them. The full ingredients list is a reasonable accomodation. I will try to start the lawsuit before my next planned trip in September.


2 questions I have about that. Since most of amtraks dining is equivalent to a restaurant, are they required to post the full ingredient list, since product may vary? I might be wrong, but most restaurants aren't required to post that information. Secondly, I find the board usually to be the least responsive to the day to day things like this. Is there a better contact for those type of things?


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## IndyLions

I just finished a round trip on the CL and had a very different contemporary experience than my last trip on the LSL just a few months ago.

There are many more choices now, and the food is better than it was - although still not great. You definitely won’t starve, so there’s no worry about that unless you are very picky or have dietary issues which many people do.

I would put the breakfast at a level just below a Hampton Inn, Holiday Inn Express or something of that nature. Not the same amount of choices – but about the same quality of food.

On the dinner side – most people said the food was quite tasty although bland. I had the antipasto plate, so I can’t comment directly on anything other than that. The antipasto plate and a bit of wine was actually a pleasant dinner for a person who has just spent four days overeating on vacation. However – it sure as heck is not a New York strip circa 1995 – which believe me I enjoyed!

The CL was sold out both directions and I will say the car was heavily used. It was at least half full for most of the trip, and it was pretty much full during meal times at breakfast and dinner. 

There was a little bit more of the traditional “getting to know you” type activity happening with people sitting with strangers than on my previous Contemporary Dining trips.

The staff was also much more organized than previously. The sleeping car attendant took everyone’s dinner orders in advance and asked about desired seating times, and to my knowledge everyone’s food was ready for them when they walked up to the attendant at the appointed hour. And yes, there was an awful lot of paper. Two or three (or 5 or 6) extra trash bags to hold it all.

Overall - yes the food was better than my other recent experiences – but in my opinion they’ve pretty much taken an experience that was pretty special and turned it into something bland and generic . It is now on par with the dozens of airline/budget hotel experiences that everybody forgets about before they finish eating. Totally practical – and totally forgettable.

I guess I’ll just have to be happy with the experiences I’ve had in the past - as well and hurry up and experience the Canadian before it goes away as well.


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## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> The staff was also much more organized than previously. The sleeping car attendant took everyone’s dinner orders in advance and asked about desired seating times, and to my knowledge everyone’s food was ready for them when they walked up to the attendant at the appointed hour.


I find this part rather confusing. Why does a boxed meal need to be scheduled ahead of time? I would think that flexible ordering would be one of the benefits of simplified meals.


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## PVD

Unfortunately, with the reduced complexity came reduced staff. The first few boxed meals trains I rode, If a whole bunch of people showed up at once it overwhelmed the LSA. They still have to do drinks and clean off tables to order even with the box. Plus with the addition of entrees that require heating, you really fully can't prep them too far in advance.


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## Rasputin

PVD said:


> Unfortunately, with the reduced complexity came reduced staff. The first few boxed meals trains I rode, If a whole bunch of people showed up at once it overwhelmed the LSA.


It happened in May on our trip on the Lake Shore. A lot of people showed up for lunch at once and there was a line at the "kitchen" doorway of people waiting for their foodbags. Since the line extended back through the car, this wasn't a very great experience for those people seated at the tables nearest the kitchen since they sort of had people standing beside them while they ate. A real class act.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Rasputin said:


> It happened in May on our trip on the Lake Shore. A lot of people showed up for lunch at once and there was a line at the "kitchen" doorway of people waiting for their foodbags. Since the line extended back through the car, this wasn't a very great experience for those people seated at the tables nearest the kitchen since they sort of had people standing beside them while they ate. A real class act.



This is looking more and more like we will probably be getting there early and taking our feed bags back to our room to eat leisurely rather than deal with crowds and noise. Or choosing from the cafe car menu if the choices are worth the cost.


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## jis

Winecliff Station said:


> This is looking more and more like we will probably be getting there early and taking our feed bags back to our room to eat leisurely rather than deal with crowds and noise. Or choosing from the cafe car menu if the choices are worth the cost.


If you are going to eat in your room, why wouldn't you simply have your SCA bring it to your room? They are supposed to do that if so desired by Sleeper passengers.


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## Winecliff Station

jis said:


> If you are going to eat in your room, why wouldn't you simply have your SCA bring it to your room? They are supposed to do that if so desired by Sleeper passengers.



Granted all of my knowledge of sleeper cars thus far has been from the forums here, but the feeling I am getting is that they are very busy and add that to the reported congestion in getting contemporary dining meals it seems like it would be asking a lot.


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## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Unfortunately, with the reduced complexity came reduced staff. The first few boxed meals trains I rode, If a whole bunch of people showed up at once it overwhelmed the LSA. They still have to do drinks and clean off tables to order even with the box. Plus with the addition of entrees that require heating, you really fully can't prep them too far in advance.


Yeah, but couldn't they simply say "it'll be ready in a half hour" instead of expecting you to know several hours in advance when you might be hungry again?



jis said:


> If you are going to eat in your room, why wouldn't you simply have your SCA bring it to your room? They are supposed to do that if so desired by Sleeper passengers.


Personally I wouldn't have much trouble carrying a snack box and canned cocktail to my room, so I don't really see the problem. That being said, knowing Amtrak I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to insist that the SCA be involved in every little task for whatever reason.


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## PVD

I don't see any problem with what you are suggesting. I guess it's possible on a packed train to be short seating, where you would want to space it out, but that would be the exception, not the norm. On the trains I've been on, I didn't see anything that precluded you from going back to the room if you wanted to. They would put the meal in a cloth tote bag for you. The SCA's I had did offer to bring the meals back, but I preferred staying in the diner.


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## Qapla

Giving it a little thought ... and thinking about ALL the people on the train, not just those in sleepers - 

Seems to me that, instead of getting rid of the diner car for the sleeper people, why not add a lounge car for the coach class? However, how about remodeling that second coach car to be fitted with several vending machines offering cold canned drinks as well as juices, etc. Also, some with snacks and other room-temp or chilled things to eat. Allow the "normal" lounge car to keep serving the "hot" foods, coffee and alcohol. Doesn't seem like it would be that difficult (costly) to rip out the so-called kitchen from the lounge car to allow for vending machines

Not sure how to arrange the consist for this - but I'm sure it could be done.


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## crescent-zephyr

I'm not sure what you gain.... 

Honestly the best case scenario was keep the chef and 1 LSA per train (so Cross Country Cafe Style) and have Sleeping Car Attendants take orders and serve the guests. 

So.. if I'm a sleeping car passenger my Sleeping Car Attendant takes my order and asks what time and where I would like to eat. The food is prepared on board by the chef, and either delivered to my room or to my seat at certain times. 

The Coach passengers could order from the same menu, but they would order at the Lounge Window... maybe it's a smaller menu for the Coach passengers, but you get the idea. 

While the Coach passengers would still lose the dining car space, they would still have access to better food than the basic microwave menu. 

This wouldn't use any more employees than the current model either... 1 LSA and 1 Chef per train.


----------



## Bob Dylan

But the idea is to get rid of the Chefs and Waiters, and just have One OBS serve Boxed Meals in the Lounge or the SCA bring it to your room if you so desire.


----------



## seat38a

Qapla said:


> Giving it a little thought ... and thinking about ALL the people on the train, not just those in sleepers -
> 
> Seems to me that, instead of getting rid of the diner car for the sleeper people, why not add a lounge car for the coach class? However, how about remodeling that second coach car to be fitted with several vending machines offering cold canned drinks as well as juices, etc. Also, some with snacks and other room-temp or chilled things to eat. Allow the "normal" lounge car to keep serving the "hot" foods, coffee and alcohol. Doesn't seem like it would be that difficult (costly) to rip out the so-called kitchen from the lounge car to allow for vending machines
> 
> Not sure how to arrange the consist for this - but I'm sure it could be done.



You must be new here.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> But the idea is to get rid of the Chefs and Waiters, and just have One OBS serve Boxed Meals in the Lounge or the SCA bring it to your room if you so desire.



The current set up uses 2 LSA’s, one for the sleeper diner, one for the lounge. The example I gave uses 1 LSA and 1 Chef.


----------



## Maverickstation

So when the heck is Amtrak going to officially announce these changes?


----------



## Rasputin

Maverickstation said:


> So when the heck is Amtrak going to officially announce these changes?


The way things are going they will probably announce it on October 1st.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Rasputin said:


> The way things are going they will probably announce it on October 1st.



I imagine it will be a nice surprise for all who are boarding that day


----------



## DevalDragon

crescent-zephyr said:


> I'm not sure what you gain....
> 
> Honestly the best case scenario was keep the chef and 1 LSA per train (so Cross Country Cafe Style) and have Sleeping Car Attendants take orders and serve the guests.
> .......
> This wouldn't use any more employees than the current model either... 1 LSA and 1 Chef per train.



The current "Cross Country Cafe" model on the Texas Eagle is 3 employees - 1 LSA, 1 SA and a food specialist.


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## PVD

When I was scheduled for the LSL and the CL in different directions on a trip right at the beginning of the cont dining program, I received e-mails from Amtrak well in advance of my trip. We are still more than 60 days out.


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## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> I received e-mails from Amtrak well in advance of my trip. We are still more than 60 days out.


Were you given the option to refund your full ticket value if you disagreed with the change in service? I think the main concern today is that people still aren't being warned prior to purchase, which seems like a pretty reasonable expectation.


----------



## jis

I suppose it will take a few years for the current trend in the airline industry to improve First Class and Business Class food and service offering to Amtrak. Afterall, it did take several years for the downward trends to fully catch up.


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## crescent-zephyr

DevalDragon said:


> The current "Cross Country Cafe" model on the Texas Eagle is 3 employees - 1 LSA, 1 SA and a food specialist



The Texas eagle operates a traditional dining car in a physical ccc car.

What I described was closer, but not identical to the original ccc concept.


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## PVD

I don't remember. It was also shortly after Amtrak changed their refund policies. I was going regardless, I didn't think about it. But the idea of making an exception to a policy when making a major change in offering seems reasonable.


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## ref5035

On texas today... full regular diner full menu service


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## b243923

I booked a trip on the Auto Train with an agent for travel in February 2020. I was using points and credit card so could not book online. The agent did not mention the change of no meals for coach passengers.​


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## tricia

b243923 said:


> I booked a trip on the Auto Train with an agent for travel in February 2020. I was using points and credit card so could not book online. The agent did not mention the change of no meals for coach passengers.​



Did you book coach or sleeper? Not much reason for the agent to mention no-meals-for-coach unless that's what you booked.


----------



## b243923

Yes_ I booked coach_


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## b243923

Yes I booked coach, agent should have mentioned it to me.


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## tricia

b243923 said:


> Yes_ I booked coach_



Well, they certainly should have told you, if in fact there'll be no meals provided for you. Since your trip is nearly six months from now, perhaps they'll come to their senses and resume meal service by then.


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## Rasputin

tricia said:


> Well, they certainly should have told you, if in fact there'll be no meals provided for you. Since your trip is nearly six months from now, perhaps they'll come to their senses and resume meal service by then.


Well they certainly should have told the passenger but then again this is Amtrak, the "Surprise!, Surprise!" travel company.


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## Maverickstation

According to a rep that I just spoke to at the call center, they were officially made aware of the changes yesterday (8/1). The Amtrak website is supposed to be updated “shortly”.


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## crescent-zephyr

A rumor on TrainOrders suggests that some Amtrak Employees think the Diners will be parked and that box meals will be served at your room by the sleeping car attendant and/or picked up in the Cafe car. 

Simply a rumor... but I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.


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## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> A rumor on TrainOrders suggests that some Amtrak Employees think the Diners will be parked and that box meals will be served at your room by the sleeping car attendant and/or picked up in the Cafe car.
> 
> Simply a rumor... but I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.


I doubt the cafe cars have the space to store the dinners. Or the capacity to heat up the "hot" meals.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> A rumor on TrainOrders suggests that some Amtrak Employees think the Diners will be parked and that box meals will be served at your room by the sleeping car attendant and/or picked up in the Cafe car.
> 
> Simply a rumor... but I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.


I saw Carls blastogram. I think if Carl was a bit better in forming coherent sentences it would help a lot. I believe when he says "no Diner" he means "no Diner service". Otherwise his first paragraph appears to contradict his last paragraph.

But of course, we will see soon enough, won't we?


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## Qapla

dogbert617 said:


> announce the upcoming contemporary dining downgrades



The shame of it all is ... they view this change as "upgrades" ... not "downgrades"


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## tonys96

THIS, above


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## IndyLions

I will reiterate again that my recent Contemporary Dining round trip on a completely booked CL was very well organized and involved no lines and no people standing around waiting for food.

By having the SCA ask for a meal time - and take the order - the food was hot and ready for the diners at the appointed time in a carry bag. My guess is most customers found an open table in the CCC and ate their food there. A few took it back to their room, and in a few cases the SCA delivered it to their room for them.

There was a lot of pleasant conversation going on at tables, mostly with individual parties and a couple of mixed parties.

There were no unhappy faces I saw - but I did have a couple of conversations with people disappointed that full diner service was lacking. I informed them to contact their congressman in an effort to repeal the law(s) on the books governing Amtrak food service.

So I feel that the on board personnel have managed to come up with a system that optimizes an experience with very limited potential.

The original plan (as I understood it) of “show up in the CCC and eat any time you want” created a poor experience based on the limited staff’s inherent inability to react to surges in demand.

That’s the approach they still take for breakfast - but that is a serve yourself Hampton Inn style format.


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## PVD

Even with the full service diner, breakfast was first come first served, not by reservation...


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## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> I will reiterate again that my recent Contemporary Dining round trip on a completely booked CL was very well organized and involved no lines and no people standing around waiting for food.


Sounds just like the vending machines at my work. Very organized, no lines, and nobody waiting.


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## the_traveler

I just booked a short trip on the SM for December 2. There is NO indication anywhere that there WILL NOT be a Dining Car - in fact just the opposite. (I am going coach.)

There is nothing mentioned on the website that says something like: “Effective _____ there will be no Dining Car meal service”.


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## flitcraft

the_traveler said:


> I just booked a short trip on the SM for December 2. There is NO indication anywhere that there WILL NOT be a Dining Car - in fact just the opposite. (I am going coach.)
> 
> There is nothing mentioned on the website that says something like: “Effective _____ there will be no Dining Car meal service”.



Based on how the retirement of the Pacific Parlour Car was handled, I wouldn't put any stock in that. In that case, they actually still had the date when the Parlour Car was set to return for the spring listed, and then at the last minute, they canceled it. I would not expect to see a notification on the website of a downgrade in meal service; count yourself lucky if the dining car remains, but don't count on it.


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## lordsigma

The original contemporary dining changes on the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited were announced ahead of time to ticket holders.....so far Amtrak has not even publicly announced that changes are coming - only the heads up they gave to the Rail Passengers Association - everything else has been rumors flying around - let alone the details of what the expanded contemporary dining is going to look like. I'd have thought Amtrak would give at least 60 days notice on this change but that isn't going to happen now. They are running out of time to give passengers with tickets reasonable notice of these changes. Perhaps there are delays in finalizing the operational details and possibly fighting with the union going on. I wonder if the changes will end up getting delayed?


----------



## Winecliff Station

lordsigma said:


> The original contemporary dining changes on the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited were announced ahead of time to ticket holders.....so far Amtrak has not even publicly announced that changes are coming - only the heads up they gave to the Rail Passengers Association - everything else has been rumors flying around - let alone the details of what the expanded contemporary dining is going to look like. I'd have thought Amtrak would give at least 60 days notice on this change but that isn't going to happen now. They are running out of time to give passengers with tickets reasonable notice of these changes. Perhaps there are delays in finalizing the operational details and possibly fighting with the union going on. I wonder if the changes will end up getting delayed?



I am thinking maybe they will give enough notice for the cheapest refundable tickets to be canceled without penalty? I am not sure what the time frame is on that.


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## dlagrua

AmtrakBlue said:


> Rather than throw the box away, just don't take it if you don't want it. They're not forcing you to take it. Sheesh.



That's correct no one is forcing me to take the boxed meal but I did give it a try. After a couple of bites it went in the garbage. Amtrak can do better than the high fat, high sugar, high salt crap that they are now giving sleeper passengers. On a rare first class flight to Seattle last March, the meal was acceptable. For lunch they served a shrimp salad plate with spinach and a balsamic dressing. On the way back we caught a hot breakfast on our flight. Here is what airline food is like:





These meals are decent quality and not the fodder that Amtrak is trying to shove upon us. Its also served on your table with a white table cloth on a China plate with silverware, glasses and ceramic coffee mugs. I wouldn't be complaining if this was the food on the LSL and CL but it isn't


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## crescent-zephyr

That’s a lovely stock photo but this is what Delta Domestic first class food is really like...


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## Devil's Advocate

From where I live the furthest major city in the lower 48 is Seattle. I can reach Seattle in four hours via nonstop domestic flight. I don't need a meal on a four hour trip. That same trip on Amtrak can take up to _one hundred and eleven hours_ one way at _double the cost_ of a first class flight. On a trip that long I need meals, selection, flavor, and freshness. There is a reason Amtrak can and should be held to a different standard.


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## dlagrua

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s a lovely stock photo but this is what Delta Domestic first class food is really like...



Our serving was like the food in the photo, perhaps not presented in the impeccable fashion as illustrated but both myself and my wife felt that it was a good meal both ways. IMO, your photo shows better food than on Amtrak CL/LSL. If Amtrak served it like this it would be a huge improvement. Did you not like your food serving better than the boxed Amtrak meal? 
We will be going back to Seattle on family business on Sept 22nd. This time I will be sure to take actual photos of the food to show everyone but we will be flying American this time so who knows?


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## crescent-zephyr

I can’t compare to the Amtrak boxed meals because I haven’t had them yet. (Not a total boycott, but certainly I have less desire to ride those trains currently).

Who did you fly with to Seattle? 

The delta food is fine, certainly better than the downgraded city of New Orleans food that I had. But not nearly as good as the majority of Amtrak dining car meals I’ve had.


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## scrollmaster

We have a trip Oct 11-12 MER→NYP on Crescent and scheduled to return NYP→MER Nov 1-2 bedroom both ways.
Wondering are we going to have normal dining I paid for months ago or reduced crap?


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## jis

I have had some remarkably good food on US domestic trans-continental First Class. For example, here is the Tandoori Chicken item that I selected to have on United on a IAH - SEA flight in December last year.


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## pennyk

scrollmaster said:


> We have a trip Oct 11-12 MER→NYP on Crescent and scheduled to return NYP→MER Nov 1-2 bedroom both ways.
> Wondering are we going to have normal dining I paid for months ago or reduced crap?


You will not have traditional dining on your trip, unless something changes between now and then. Contemporary dining on the Crescent begins on October 1st.


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## jis

SanDiegan said:


> Makes sense since it serves the NEC crowd ...


And of course neither the LSL or the Capitol serves the NEC crowd. And the next round of Contemporary Dining is slated for the Crescent and the Silver Meteor which also don't serve the NEC crowd.  

Where do people get these silly ideas?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I had some of the best airline food I'd ever eaten a few months ago on Japan Airlines. The portions weren't huge but the quality and preparation vastly exceeded my expectations. That was in intercontinental business class, but the cost of the ticket was similar to long distance sleeper service on Amtrak, so in theory it should still be possible to do things right even today.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> I have had some remarkably good food on US domestic trans-continental First Class. For example, here is the Tandoori Chicken item that I selected to have on United on a IAH - SEA flight in December last year.
> 
> View attachment 14671



That looks pretty similar in quality to what I had on delta. The salad looks a little better just cause spinach is classier than iceberg. I’d rather have Amtrak dining car food that’s for sure.


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## scrollmaster

pennyk said:


> You will not have traditional dining on your trip, unless something changes between now and then. Contemporary dining on the Crescent begins on October 1st.


These tickets were purchased in January and traditional dining was shown on their menus and charged for. Really ticks me off and if this trip for wife and I which includes 10 day cruise NYC to Quebec City and tour of QC, Montreal & Niagra Falls before returning to NYC and home I would cancel but would need another place to live if I did that at this point. I will not schedule another Amtrak again though if this is what they will be offering.


----------



## pennyk

scrollmaster said:


> These tickets were purchased in January and traditional dining was shown on their menus and charged for. Really ticks me off and if this trip for wife and I which includes 10 day cruise NYC to Quebec City and tour of QC, Montreal & Niagra Falls before returning to NYC and home I would cancel but would need another place to live if I did that at this point. I will not schedule another Amtrak again though if this is what they will be offering.



I wish I could offer a solution for you. I had made many reservations made prior to the announcement for times after October 1 on the Silver Meteor. I have not tried to cancel because I still want to travel. I understand that the menu offerings will be different (improved?) than the meals currently offered on the the CL and LSL.


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## seat38a

IMG_6686 by B H, on Flickr

I've had better fish in the air than on Amtrak. I could have done without the sauce but the turbot was tender and buttery. Had it last month.


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## flitcraft

Domestic first class food on US airlines has gotten better in the past couple of years, as airlines fight for high-financial-value business. Amtrak has no competition, unfortunately, so, as Lily Tomlin used to say about the phone company, "We don't care because we don't have to." 

I've only had Contemporary Dining once, on last summer's trip on the CL. I wasn't favorably impressed--the Mediterranean beef was only marginally better than Amstew, and breakfast was what you'd expect if Motel 6 had a buffet breakfast service. At least at breakfast there was no waste--if you didn't want something, you didn't take it. Dinner was overpackaged and one-size-fits-all, so there was a lot of waste of food and packaging. Though the woven bag was nice--and I still use it for grocery shopping.


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## seat38a

flitcraft said:


> Domestic first class food on US airlines has gotten better in the past couple of years, as airlines fight for high-financial-value business. Amtrak has no competition, unfortunately, so, as Lily Tomlin used to say about the phone company, "We don't care because we don't have to."
> 
> I've only had Contemporary Dining once, on last summer's trip on the CL. I wasn't favorably impressed--the Mediterranean beef was only marginally better than Amstew, and breakfast was what you'd expect if Motel 6 had a buffet breakfast service. At least at breakfast there was no waste--if you didn't want something, you didn't take it. Dinner was overpackaged and one-size-fits-all, so there was a lot of waste of food and packaging. Though the woven bag was nice--and I still use it for grocery shopping.



I think Amtrak should offer eggs for breakfast. Here is how United does it at LAX United Club. They offer two types of egg salad along with a do it yourself deviled eggs. At first, I thought having traditional and avocado egg salad for breakfast was odd, but it works! At least with cold egg dishes, Amtrak doesn't have to prepare it and everyone gets some protein at breakfast. I've stayed at couple of Holiday Inn Express's before SPG merged with Marriott and increased their footprint, and even they manage to offer eggs in the morning. Personally, I'd prefer the cold egg/hardboiled over the nuked omelettes.



IMG_5448 by B H, on Flickr


IMG_5449 by B H, on Flickr


IMG_5451 by B H, on Flickr


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## crescent-zephyr

Holiday inn express offers hot eggs and either hot sausage or bacon, hot oatmeal, hot cinnamon rolls, pancakes from a machine, and maybe hot waffles as well. 

Hampton Inn offers 2-3 hot Items (I usually see scrambled eggs, potatoes and either sausage or bacon... a couple other options rotate around too) and then make your own waffles and a pot of oatmeal.


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## crescent-zephyr

Seat38A... is united club available to domestic first class passengers?


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## ScouseAndy

scrollmaster said:


> These tickets were purchased in January and traditional dining was shown on their menus and charged for. Really ticks me off and if this trip for wife and I which includes 10 day cruise NYC to Quebec City and tour of QC, Montreal & Niagra Falls before returning to NYC and home I would cancel but would need another place to live if I did that at this point. I will not schedule another Amtrak again though if this is what they will be offering.


You dont even know what they are offering is the same, comparable, better or worst because no announcement has been made. Wait until you have made your trip and tried the food before jumping to conclusions. 

If it is worst then pick up the phone after you have travelled and complain to them until they refund a portion of your ticket costs.


----------



## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> Seat38A... is united club available to domestic first class passengers?


I'm a United Club member. It is only available if your flying business class on premium transcon nonstop routes: LAX - EWR, SFO - EWR, SFO - BOS


----------



## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> Holiday inn express offers hot eggs and either hot sausage or bacon, hot oatmeal, hot cinnamon rolls, pancakes from a machine, and maybe hot waffles as well.
> 
> Hampton Inn offers 2-3 hot Items (I usually see scrambled eggs, potatoes and either sausage or bacon... a couple other options rotate around too) and then make your own waffles and a pot of oatmeal.


Yeah but those hot eggs at HIX were definitely not cooked fresh in the back. Just reheated.


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## CAQuail

seat38a said:


> I'm a United Club member. It is only available if your flying business class on premium transcon nonstop routes: LAX - EWR, SFO - EWR, SFO - BOS


Or if you purchase a membership or a day pass.


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## seat38a

CAQuail said:


> Or if you purchase a membership or a day pass.


But the original question was if domestic FC has access with ticket purchase which they don't except for the 3 routes I listed.


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## scrollmaster

I guess we'll find out in October. If they're no better than my experience of the City of New Orleans they can keep that.


pennyk said:


> I wish I could offer a solution for you. I had made many reservations made prior to the announcement for times after October 1 on the Silver Meteor. I have not tried to cancel because I still want to travel. I understand that the menu offerings will be different (improved?) than the meals currently offered on the the CL and LSL.


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## flitcraft

I agree that cold hard-cooked eggs are vastly preferable to reheated hot eggs, especially those made from powdered eggs. Yuck!! My preferred breakfast would have some kind of low sugar protein; flavored yogurt doesn't fit the bill, but hard-cooked eggs would.


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## seat38a

Personally, I wouldn't mind the whole dining changes if they rolled out what the've been doing on the PDX Empire Builder. The food is prepared and brought to the train my a local caterer.


DSC00941 by B H, on Flickr



DSC00943 by B H, on Flickr



DSC00945 by B H, on Flickr

Fried Chicken Dinner. Loaded In Havre Montana. Might have been Shelby. This was being sold to coach passengers, but I decided to buy and try it.


DSC01137 by B H, on Flickr



DSC01142 by B H, on Flickr


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## Devil's Advocate

ScouseAndy said:


> You dont even know what they are offering is the same, comparable, better or worst because no announcement has been made. Wait until you have made your trip and tried the food before jumping to conclusions. If it is worst then pick up the phone after you have travelled and complain to them until they refund a portion of your ticket costs.


Good luck getting any portion of a completed trip refunded back to you. In my experience the best Amtrak will do is provide a credit towards future travel, which probably wouldn't mean much to someone who is uninterested in boxed meal service.


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## seat38a

jis said:


> I have had some remarkably good food on US domestic trans-continental First Class. For example, here is the Tandoori Chicken item that I selected to have on United on a IAH - SEA flight in December last year.
> 
> View attachment 14671


I had this exact same meal on my flight from IAH - LAX. I just wished I had some naan and mint chutney to go with it instead of the pretzel roll.


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## crescent-zephyr

seat38a said:


> I'm a United Club member. It is only available if your flying business class on premium transcon nonstop routes: LAX - EWR, SFO - EWR, SFO - BOS



Same as Delta. Just wondering what the competition is like... I've pretty much only flown Delta, unless you count Southwest!


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## crescent-zephyr

The Big Sky Chicken Dinners were available for purchase when I rode the empire builder 20 years ago. While the box meals loaded up for the Sleeper passengers are pretty good for what they are (I've had them twice I think), they really don't answer the big problems with the Contemporary Dining. You are locked into a box of food that you may or may not want or be able to eat all of. In a full service dining car, there are some reasonable substitutions that can be made. If you can't eat mashed potatoes, you can order a baked potato for example. If you can't eat cheesecake, there is a gluten free pudding you can order. None of that is possible with Contemporary dining, Airline style dining, or the box meals on the Empire Builder.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> None of that is possible with Contemporary dining, Airline style dining, or the box meals on the Empire Builder.


I have done plenty of substitution, mixing and matching specially in International Business Class, and even some in domestic First Class. So I have no idea why you claim such is impossible in airline dining.

In International Business Class actually the dessert trolley comes by separately and you pretty much get to choose what you want including specialized prep of the ice cream sundae should you prefer that. Similarly the salad and appetizer comes out separately and you get to choose what you want or not. Of course it also depends a lot on the airline. My experience is on various Star Alliance Airlines - United, Lufthansa, Singapore, Thai etc.

The one differentiator in train Diner Dining is the availability of the Grill which enables more local prep of food, but that is where the cost of labor comes in big time. In terms of mixxing and matching from stuff that is on board, there is little difference.

As far as at seat service goes, there are airline services that one can get in International B/F Classes Amtrak has never come even close to, in the last ten years. As DA has explained elsewhere the true comparison between Amtrak Dining and Airline Dining is really with International Upper Class in terms of the fares paid.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> I have done plenty of substitution, mixing and matching specially in International Business Class, and even some in domestic First Class. So I have no idea why you claim such is impossible in airline dining.
> 
> In International Business Class actually the dessert trolley comes by separately and you pretty much get to choose what you want including specialized prep of the ice cream sundae should you prefer that. Similarly the salad and appetizer comes out separately and you get to choose what you want or not. Of course it also depends a lot on the airline. My experience is on various Star Alliance Airlines - United, Lufthansa, Singapore, Thai etc.
> 
> The one differentiator in train Diner Dining is the availability of the Grill which enables more local prep of food, but that is where the cost of labor comes in big time. In terms of mixxing and matching from stuff that is on board, there is little difference.
> 
> As far as at seat service goes, there are airline services that one can get in International B/F Classes Amtrak has never come even close to, in the last ten years. As DA has explained elsewhere the true comparison between Amtrak Dining and Airline Dining is really with International Upper Class in terms of the fares paid.



Impossible in the term of it's not possible for a passenger to do. Not impossible to achieve such a feat. In my limited experience (only one airline..) on domestic first class there are a couple of entree choices and everyone gets the same salad and the same dessert.

It's physically possible to let amtrak passengers mix and match side dishes and desserts with Contemporary Dining, but that is not currently how it is set up for lunch and dinner.


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## crescent-zephyr

But regardless... I was talking about mixing and matching the entree plate. The example I gave was being able to order a baked potato or rice if you couldn't eat the mashed potatoes etc. That's not possible, as far as i know, on airlines. Even if the airline does give you a choice between cake and ice cream.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> But regardless... I was talking about mixing and matching the entree plate. The example I gave was being able to order a baked potato or rice if you couldn't eat the mashed potatoes etc. That's not possible, as far as i know, on airlines. Even if the airline does give you a choice between cake and ice cream.


And yet mysteriously I have successfully done so.  Have you actually flown in International B/F recently?


----------



## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> But regardless... I was talking about mixing and matching the entree plate. The example I gave was being able to order a baked potato or rice if you couldn't eat the mashed potatoes etc. That's not possible, as far as i know, on airlines. Even if the airline does give you a choice between cake and ice cream.


While jis has had luck mixing and matching meals inflight, you have to also remember, the need to eat inflight on international flights is really diminishing with preflight dining in the lounge. For example, United has Polaris Lounges with a full buffet and also sit down restaurant dining. Same with Star Alliance lounges, with their buffet.

Pictures of EWR Polaris Lounge.


IMG_3334 by B H, on Flickr


IMG_3360 by B H, on Flickr


IMG_3359 by B H, on Flickr

After eating here, I was not hungry during my flight.

You know, it might even be better if Amtrak just did lounge dining or something at Chicago Union Station for the Eastern Trains. Setup a buffet or something with access for sleeper passengers only. Not sure if it would work going westbound but with the Chicago Hub, it could possibly work.

Nevermind, I forgot about the intermediate stops.  It would have been great to have Amburgers with french fries instead of chips all the time.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> And yet mysteriously I have successfully done so.  Have you actually flown in International B/F recently?



I've never flown International period. I've said that in multiple posts now. I'm talking about domestic first class.

You were able to substitute side dishes that accompany an entree? That's an extensive menu for a flight, but of course at international first prices they can afford to stock up. ha.


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## lordsigma

I’ve said this before, there is an easy logical solution that I wish they’d consider. Duplicate exactly or close to what they’re doing for Acela First on the eastern LD trains which is more similar to airline first class.


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## yarrow

2 questions. i had heard that the dinner provided to sleeper pax on the eb out of pdx(which we always enjoyed)had been downgraded. anyone ridden recently and have a report? second question, we are traveling sleeper on the eb spk to msp in early october. i understand this thread is dealing with changes east of chi but has anyone heard of any changes to western ld trains(specifically the eb)as of october 1? thanks


----------



## lordsigma

yarrow said:


> 2 questions. i had heard that the dinner provided to sleeper pax on the eb out of pdx(which we always enjoyed)had been downgraded. anyone ridden recently and have a report? second question, we are traveling sleeper on the eb spk to msp in early october. i understand this thread is dealing with changes east of chi but has anyone heard of any changes to western ld trains(specifically the eb)as of october 1? thanks


Shouldn't be any changes to EB. RPA said in a post a while back that Amtrak has acknowledged that the two night trains would demand a different approach so this contemporary program is likely designed primarily for the eastern trains. Not saying that they have "good intentions" ultimately for the western trains only that they would be looked at separately and differently. It should be noted that it appears the Auto Train is getting special treatment. Although its coach diner is going away, the sleeper diner appears to be remaining a more traditional diner.


----------



## the_traveler

yarrow said:


> 2 questions. i had heard that the dinner provided to sleeper pax on the eb out of pdx(which we always enjoyed)had been downgraded. anyone ridden recently and have a report? second question, we are traveling sleeper on the eb spk to msp in early october. i understand this thread is dealing with changes east of chi but has anyone heard of any changes to western ld trains(specifically the eb)as of october 1? thanks


The reason the EB has boxed meals between SPK and PDX is that the Dining Car goes on the SPK to SEA section. The PDX section only has the SSL (no Dining Car at all). East of SPK, the EB has a Dining Car.


----------



## yarrow

the_traveler said:


> The reason the EB has boxed meals between SPK and PDX is that the Dining Car goes on the SPK to SEA section. The PDX section only has the SSL (no Dining Car at all). East of SPK, the EB has a Dining Car.


i am aware of that. i had heard somewhere that the caterer for the dinner out of pdx was going to change to a source with not as nice a meal. was wondering if that had happened and, if so, what it was like.


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## crescent-zephyr

The photos that were just posted looked like comparable quality to what they had earlier.


----------



## yarrow

crescent-zephyr said:


> The photos that were just posted looked like comparable quality to what they had earlier.


yes, the meal is from "outakes" who was the caterer but i note that the box has a date of 5/19 so i wonder how recent the picture of the meal is


----------



## seat38a

yarrow said:


> yes, the meal is from "outakes" who was the caterer but i note that the box has a date of 5/19 so i wonder how recent the picture of the meal is



Recent pictures I've seen shows its definitely a downgrade. Not sure if its the caterer they chose, but it does not look as good as it used to. You can see it here: https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2018/10/13/amtrak-empire-builder-bedroom-review/

Based on the pictures Matthew posted, the caterer has changed.

April pictures form The Points Guy
https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/amtrak-superliner-roomette-empire-builder/


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## Rasputin

I understand that the Big Sky chicken dinners which for years were being loaded onto the Empire Builder at Havre and sold in the café car ($10 as I recall) are no longer being offered. They were quite good and adequate. I bought one the next morning before arrival in Portland to have for lunch because I did not realize that sleeping car passengers on the Coast Starlight boarding in Portland are entitled to lunch on the train (which they are).


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> I have had some remarkably good food on US domestic trans-continental First Class. For example, here is the Tandoori Chicken item that I selected to have on United on a IAH - SEA flight in December last year.
> 
> View attachment 14671


Mmmm, pretzel bun. Thought AA were the only ones with those in FC.


----------



## jiml

seat38a said:


> But the original question was if domestic FC has access with ticket purchase which they don't except for the 3 routes I listed.


The other loophole on United is flying to Canada. Even a 1 hour flight from Chicago to Toronto in FC gets you lounge access, and the Chicago lounge has Giordano's at dinnertime. Unfortunately my carrier of choice (AA) considers that route domestic and makes lounge exceptions only for routes similar to the ones you've listed. I used to have their club membership, but don't fly often enough now to make it worthwhile.


----------



## JoeBas

Devil's Advocate said:


> Good luck getting any portion of a completed trip refunded back to you. In my experience the best Amtrak will do is provide a credit towards future travel, which probably wouldn't mean much to someone who is uninterested in boxed meal service.



Heck, last time they rolled this out bait-and-switch-style they insisted on enforcing their new cancellation rules BEFORE travel, let alone after...


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## seat38a

Rasputin said:


> I understand that the Big Sky chicken dinners which for years were being loaded onto the Empire Builder at Havre and sold in the café car ($10 as I recall) are no longer being offered. They were quite good and adequate. I bought one the next morning before arrival in Portland to have for lunch because I did not realize that sleeping car passengers on the Coast Starlight boarding in Portland are entitled to lunch on the train (which they are).



As I understood it, it wasn't a year round thing. Not sure if they axed it completely.


----------



## Rasputin

seat38a said:


> As I understood it, it wasn't a year round thing. Not sure if they axed it completely.


I had the Big Sky chicken dinner in May on a trip on 27 about 5 years ago. I saw some posts a while back that the service was gone. I guess someone who has travelled on the Builder this summer can confirm this or not. It was a helpful and convenient service so it probably is gone.


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## crescent-zephyr

The Big Sky Chicken dinners were the type of thing that should be on all the multi-day long distance trains. They were loaded at a service stop, sold by the lounge car LSA, and gave coach passengers an affordable full meal from a local restaurant.


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## Amtrakfflyer

The chicken dinners or something similar are another simple solution to the contemporary dining disaster and probably the most cost effective for Amtrak and passengers alike.

We can harp, hope and moan all we like but the current Administrations (US and Amtrak’s) aren’t going to implement anything to foster the network or long distance ridership.

Maintaining the network until a _honest _ competent leadership team is in place is the best we can ask/fight for at this point.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Isn't this the problem now? That no decent and knowledgeable railroad person wants anything to do with what Amtrak has become? So you get a lot of anti-rail (or at least anti-rail for anyone except the NEC) people running it?


----------



## dogbert617

Rasputin said:


> I had the Big Sky chicken dinner in May on a trip on 27 about 5 years ago. I saw some posts a while back that the service was gone. I guess someone who has travelled on the Builder this summer can confirm this or not. It was a helpful and convenient service so it probably is gone.



I rode Empire Builder 7/27 and 8/28 in both directions back in July, and sadly I can confirm those are no longer sold on the EB. Honestly if one is in coach and is desperate for food not from the cafe car or dining car, your best hope would be to find food somewhere near either the Whitefish Amtrak stop(IF you rode that far west, once heard a report of someone SOMEHOW running to Great Northern Brewing to get a drink there, then somehow making it back in time before the train departed. I'd ONLY be open to trying that, IF 7/27 was early into Whitefish), Havre(I saw a bar and casino with food, PJ's, was across the street from the Havre station), or Minot. For the latter(Minot), I know there's a coffee truck and food stand(out of a truck) called Daily Buzz that's open from Monday-Saturday(thanks to 3 people on google maps who confirmed this, when I asked a question about the days they were open on their google maps review page), that westbound 7/27 train travelers(Daily Buzz btw is closed when eastbound 8/28 arrives into Minot) could easily walk to during that extended station stop. There's also the option to see in Minot if you could call a nearby restaurant(i.e. the fact I saw a Thai restaurant in downtown Minot, along with a pizza place just north of the bridge of the road that has an overpass just to the east of the Minot station), and see if either place would deliver to the Minot station house while 8/28 does its station stop there.

Also I'll note for Havre, there are a few vending machines inside that station house on a side wall within the waiting room area. Shelby, MT also had a few, as well. I didn't ride all the way west to Whitefish(only to West Glacier), so can't report on the status of that station. I wish the EB still sold those Big Sky chicken dinners, though! Was this sold out of the cafe car, on the lower level of the Sightseer Lounge?



seat38a said:


> Fried Chicken Dinner. Loaded In Havre Montana. Might have been Shelby. This was being sold to coach passengers, but I decided to buy and try it.
> 
> 
> DSC01137 by B H, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> DSC01142 by B H, on Flickr



Ah, so that's what those sometimes talked about Big Sky chicken dinners were like! Thanks for posting these 2 images. I see with the HAV sticker on them, that they had to have been from some local place out of Havre. Too bad those are no longer offered on the EB, if they were sold at least as late as 2015(per those 2 pics over on flickr). Sigh!


----------



## Qapla

They should have hired me  I would have worked for less that they are currently paying and made much better decisions


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## Rasputin

dogbert617 said:


> I wish the EB still sold those Big Sky chicken dinners, though! Was this sold out of the cafe car, on the lower level of the Sightseer Lounge?



Yes, you bought them from the café attendant in the lounge car who had made an announcement that they were available.


----------



## dogbert617

Rasputin said:


> Yes, you bought them from the café attendant in the lounge car who had made an announcement that they were available.



Thanks for responding, and confirmed that this was indeed the case. I wonder why this was discontinued? It seems like this'd be a cost effective solution for Amtrak to sell these Big Sky chicken boxes, considering the (sigh) stupid mandate by Congress and the Senate for Amtrak to reduce dining and food service costs on long distance trains. Why can this not STILL be sold, on the EB? ESPECIALLY for those in coach, who want an alternative to the food sold in the dining car and (moreso, where food on the latter is less interesting) the cafe car? I love the fact that the EB did serve those boxed chicken dinners till sometime in the last few years, myself.

It looks like for Havre, maybe one could CALL IN a food order to go from PJ's Bar and Casino just before arriving in Havre, and during that station stop, run inside to there and pick up and pay for their food to go from PJ's during that station stop. The menu for that place(thanks google maps, and pics posted on its review page) seemed like it'd be serviceable, for EB passengers if they wanted to pick up a to go food order during the 20 minute layover there. After all PJ's is just across the street from the Havre station, so to me it'd seem like a workable idea to do for coach passengers(call in an order there before the train arrived in Havre), and providing the food was ready once you got inside PJ's to pick up your food and pay to go, still allow those coach passengers to get back to the train in time before it departed.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

anyone use Uber eats to a station yet?


----------



## dogbert617

crescent-zephyr said:


> anyone use Uber eats to a station yet?



I should try that out, myself. I wonder which places would allow food to be delivered to an Amtrak station with an extended layover for a little bit of time(preferably 15 to 20 minutes or more), were I to try that? And say, that might be interesting to try in say like Minot, ND, Denver, CO, Albuquerque, NM, El Paso, TX, Tucson, AZ, or any other station on a long distance route with a long enough layover.


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## OlympianHiawatha

Rasputin said:


> Yes, you bought them from the café attendant in the lounge car who had made an announcement that they were available.



When I was Eastbound several years ago and the announcement came from the lounge, you could hear the doors flying open in our Sleeper until Stephanie, our attendant, came on the car 1MC and reminded us those are for Coach pax and we get our chow included with our fare.


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## Charles785

Maybe I missed it, but does anyone know the Havre source of the Big Sky chicken dinners. (I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this but if we knew who prepared the meals, maybe passengers could arranged to call ahead, and arrange for delivery to the Amtrak station.)


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## seat38a

Charles785 said:


> Maybe I missed it, but does anyone know the Havre source of the Big Sky chicken dinners. (I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this but if we knew who prepared the meals, maybe passengers could arranged to call ahead, and arrange for delivery to the Amtrak station.)



At one point, the rumor was Montana State Prison. But when I asked the LSA in the cafe, she said absolutely not. She just said a restaurant in town.


----------



## Rasputin

seat38a said:


> At one point, the rumor was Montana State Prison. But when I asked the LSA in the cafe, she said absolutely not. She just said a restaurant in town.


The Big Sky Chicken dinners sold in the Empire Builder café were made by Boxcars Restaurant in Havre, Montana. I understand that service was discontinued in 2017.

I understand that Boxcars also made the breakfast meals that were served on the Portland section of the Empire Builder. They were also loaded onto the westbound train at Havre. I don't know if they still prepare these.

https://www.havredailynews.com/stor...-owner-boxcars-restaurant-and-bar/524810.html


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## Qapla

According to the article in that link: (This excerpt has been edited for clarity and to fit into this space)

"Anthony and Ashley Windyboy [bought] Boxcars in April 2018 ... The restaurant hadn't been in operation for a few years. Windyboy said they had to clean it up and get everything working

They started with a limited daily lunch menu and have added to it over the past year. 'There was only, I wanna say, seven or eight items when I first started because I wanted to get comfortable and see what I could do,' Windyboy said. 'I wanted to make it fast because I know people only have an hour for lunch.'

Their daily menu still is fairly simple with an assortment of burgers, sandwiches, salads, chicken and a kids' menu along with a handful of appetizers."


----------



## Rasputin

Qapla said:


> According to the article in that link: (This excerpt has been edited for clarity and to fit into this space)
> 
> "Anthony and Ashley Windyboy [bought] Boxcars in April 2018 ... The restaurant hadn't been in operation for a few years. Windyboy said they had to clean it up and get everything working
> 
> They started with a limited daily lunch menu and have added to it over the past year. 'There was only, I wanna say, seven or eight items when I first started because I wanted to get comfortable and see what I could do,' Windyboy said. 'I wanted to make it fast because I know people only have an hour for lunch.'
> 
> Their daily menu still is fairly simple with an assortment of burgers, sandwiches, salads, chicken and a kids' menu along with a handful of appetizers."


Thanks for pointing out my error. I bought one of the chicken dinners when I was on 7/27 in 2015. I also went through Havre on 7/27 in 2016 but I can't recall if they were still being offered then. A friend from Havre later told me that they were prepared by Boxcars restaurant and that they were discontinued in 2017. Perhaps he was mistaken and they were discontinued earlier.


----------



## me_little_me

pennyk said:


> You will not have traditional dining on your trip, unless something changes between now and then. Contemporary dining on the Crescent begins on October 1st.


The question has been asked in this forum about whether there has been any official notice from Amtrak other than the reported NRPA announcement. Penny, has there been?


----------



## pennyk

me_little_me said:


> The question has been asked in this forum about whether there has been any official notice from Amtrak other than the reported NRPA announcement. Penny, has there been?


I have personally heard from several Silver Meteor crews, from an RPA employee, from an Amtrak management employee in Wilmington, and from a manager in Miami, but I have not seen an official alert from Amtrak. However, I am not actively looking for an official notice. I am convinced this change will occur.


----------



## Bob Dylan

"If it walks like a Duck,and quacks like a Duck, it's a Duck!"

Remember, the current Gaggle of Flight Suits running Amtrak are known for Springing surprises on the Staff and Customers!( see the PPCs,the Ocean View,the National LD Menu,the Vanishing Chefs on Several Routes and the RIFs of OBS).


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## jis

pennyk said:


> I have personally heard from several Silver Meteor crews, from an RPA employee, from an Amtrak management employee in Wilmington, and from a manager in Miami, but I have not seen an official alert from Amtrak. However, I am not actively looking for an official notice. I am convinced this change will occur.


Me too. I am just waiting to learn what the new menu will be. I have heard from several sources that it will not be the same as on the LSL and the Cap at present.


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> Me too. I am just waiting to learn what the new menu will be. I have heard from several sources that it will not be the same as on the LSL and the Cap at present.


I, too, am waiting to learn about the menu since I have a food allergy. I will be riding the Silver Meteor the first week in October. I will be prepared - just in case my choices are unsatisfactory.


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## jis

pennyk said:


> I, too, am waiting to learn about the menu since I have a food allergy. I will be riding the Silver Meteor the first week in October. I will be prepared - just in case my choices are unsatisfactory.


Here is something that I just came across...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AQjubZvWEt6P9C6wuV4wCZuwg-gtpiqA/view


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> Here is something that I just came across...
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AQjubZvWEt6P9C6wuV4wCZuwg-gtpiqA/view


I am disappointed that the meal options appear to have not changed from the existing contemporary dining. Also, that's a pretty hefty cut to the Auto Trains staffing.


----------



## Rasputin

jis said:


> Here is something that I just came across...
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AQjubZvWEt6P9C6wuV4wCZuwg-gtpiqA/view


Thanks very much for posting that. I am so embarrassed! I have been worrying and fretting about these October 1 changes but I now see that it will be "Higher Quality Meals." All my worrying and fretting has been for naught. Amtrak has had our back all this time and we just couldn't see it.


----------



## Palmland

Good to finally see this spelled out to end most of the speculation. The only winner is A-T sleeper passengers. Four entree selections for dinner on most trains, not sure if that is different from the present offering on LSL and CL. Of course the big losers are the 55 employees that will have to exercise their seniority. No mention if the hated box meals will have a better presentation such as on 1st class air. No mention of any change to the Silver Star but the Cardinal does get a Viewliner sleeper-lounge aka diner.


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## jis

There is no mention of the Silver Star because no changes are planned for the Silver Star.


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## Just-Thinking-51

As stated early if there were going to add a dinner to the Sliver Star then you could make the case for improvement, not just cutting the service levels. Adding the dinner to the Cardinal is very nice, just falls short.


----------



## lordsigma

It is interesting to note that with this document Amtrak is acknowledging that this new food service model is an inferior level of service in that they are keeping chefs on the closer to profitable Auto Train. It pretty much shows which train management considers to have a future in their vision of Amtrak. I suppose the argument can be given that AT carries more actual long distance overnight sleeper passengers than the other trains which have a lot of short distance riders.
This is probably a wash for CONO and Cardinal given they already have a similar food service model - possibly even an improvement for the Cardinal getting the viewliner diner instead of the AmCan.


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## Amtrakfflyer

So apparently the V2 diners being parked for installation of convection ovens and modifications for new menu items was a lie....:unfortunately RPA fell for it hook, line and sinker and spread untrue rumors....


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## bretton88

Amtrakfflyer said:


> So apparently the V2 diners being parked for installation of convection ovens and modifications for new menu items was a lie....:unfortunately RPA fell for it hook, line and sinker and spread untrue rumors....


Not necessarily. There are some not meals on the menu still, like the braised beef. So the convection ovens might still be installed allowing Amtrak to turn out more of the hot meals. I'm just disappointed the menu appears to be the same. I thought Amtrak would have been able to experiment more. So for Cardinal and CONO passengers this is an upgrade, for Crescent and SM passengers, this appears to be a downgrade.


----------



## Rasputin

bretton88 said:


> Not necessarily. There are some not meals on the menu still, like the braised beef. So the convection ovens might still be installed allowing Amtrak to turn out more of the hot meals. I'm just disappointed the menu appears to be the same. I thought Amtrak would have been able to experiment more. So for Cardinal and CONO passengers this is an upgrade, for Crescent and SM passengers, this appears to be a downgrade.


My wife and I had some very delicious steak dinners two nights in the row on the Crescent between DC and New Orleans in May. We also had the contemporary dining hot beef entrée on the Lake Shore on our return trip. I would say it is not just appearances. It is a downgrade and a significant one.


----------



## Steve4031

I absolutely hate the lunch and dinner items on this new menu. I haven’t tried them all. I should probably give the braised beef a chance. But even if I liked it it would not want to eat it for three meals on the Crescent or Cardinal. I can deal with Breakfast. 

The one tangible upgrade is having those tables to sit at too look out the window. 

I’m hoping that once the election occurs and a new president is elected that there might be changes for the better. But the next two years are not going to be enjoyable on eastern trains.


----------



## Willbridge

Rasputin said:


> The Big Sky Chicken dinners sold in the Empire Builder café were made by Boxcars Restaurant in Havre, Montana. I understand that service was discontinued in 2017.
> 
> I understand that Boxcars also made the breakfast meals that were served on the Portland section of the Empire Builder. They were also loaded onto the westbound train at Havre. I don't know if they still prepare these.
> 
> https://www.havredailynews.com/stor...-owner-boxcars-restaurant-and-bar/524810.html


This type of food service was used by the private railroads that were trying to provide a decent service on secondary trains. In 1967 I rode the Northern Pacific RDC into Winnipeg. The conductor took orders for a choice of box lunches and a Grand Forks cafe delivered them to the train. Passengers seemed to enjoy the picnic and a local business benefited. No plastic was involved.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Everything has a time and place. Secondary train equipment with RDC great choice, Sliver Meteor, or Lake Shore Limited not a great choice.


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## jis

The only way to substantially reverse any of this is to get such reversal directives included in the new Authorization Bill. Remember, all this is the outcome of something that got included in an earlier Authorization Bill. Absent such, all the huffing and puffing and even taking out processions in Washington DC will probably have little effect, unless the legislation can be changed.


----------



## OBS

I find it interesting the document implies that BC is being retained on the Cardinal!


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## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> The only way to substantially reverse any of this is to get such reversal directives included in the new Authorization Bill. Remember, all this is the outcome of something that got included in an earlier Authorization Bill. Absent such, all the huffing and puffing and even taking out processions in Washington DC will probably have little effect, unless the legislation can be changed.



I don't believe this will help. Even if they get rid of the language regarding food covering its costs, do you really think the powers that be would return to what they see as a waste of money? If revenues do not fall dramatically (and the Starvation and Crapitol don't seem to support that theory), what incentive would the company have to restore what they see as a high labor, high cost and wasteful practice?

There are delusions of grandeur at stake. They have to balance the operating costs or they won't look good!!


----------



## Willbridge

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Everything has a time and place. Secondary train equipment with RDC great choice, Sliver Meteor, or Lake Shore Limited not a great choice.


True. That was only one meal on board. Breakfast was in the full-service diner/lounge on the _Mainstreeter. _Food was available in the Winnipeg CN station before the night departure of Train 1 (the Montreal section of the _Super Continental_).

In reviewing the attached document, it appears that class segregation is being offered, along with liquor, as a sop for a service that is less deluxe than the unsegregated service offered now.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> I don't believe this will help. Even if they get rid of the language regarding food covering its costs, do you really think the powers that be would return to what they see as a waste of money? If revenues do not fall dramatically (and the Starvation and Crapitol don't seem to support that theory), what incentive would the company have to restore what they see as a high labor, high cost and wasteful practice?
> 
> There are delusions of grandeur at stake. They have to balance the operating costs or they won't look good!!


Merely getting rid of the language won't do it. It will require addition of imperative language regarding improving food service. That is unlikely to happen though.

Frankly, what is happening is basically following what happened to the airlines, with a time lag of a decade or two. You are right. As long as there is not significant negative impact on revenues, there will be no reversal of this.

In comparison with the airline industry, what is worse is, there being no real competition in the LD sector, the reversal of trends in upper class service in the airline industry may not repeat itself on passenger rail without much stronger intervention from outside. And in any case, whatever happens will have to happen with a lower baseline labor cost. It is quite unlikely that things will ever go back to the way things were.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Here is something that I just came across...
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AQjubZvWEt6P9C6wuV4wCZuwg-gtpiqA/view



That appears to have ZERO meals I can eat for lunch and dinner.

Aw, hell, I guess I have to file that lawsuit.


----------



## Winecliff Station

I guess I'm relieved that I booked the Meteor for 9/30, even though it means spending three nights in FTL before our cruise....otherwise I could probably have gone with the Asian noodle bowl but not for two meals in one trip, especially if as rumor has it it's served cold  Taking the Star on the trip back because the Meteor leaves too early so that's a non-issue.


----------



## jiml

The only train where this is a slight improvement is the Cardinal. The proposal can't be worse than the slop they served during our last trip on disposable plates with plastic cutlery. Sad to see even this limited dining was not restored on Silver Star, but of course that would not help the objective of cutting staff.


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## jis

As Thirdrail mentioned a few posts back, they have no incentive to back off from any of this as long as revenues do not nosedive. Revenues have been holding fine on the Star, apparently. So restoration of anything is a no go.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> As Thirdrail mentioned a few posts back, they have no incentive to back off from any of this as long as revenues do not nosedive. Revenues have been holding fine on the Star, apparently. So restoration of anything is a no go.


If revenues nosedive it will be spun as a reason to reduce or remove unwanted long distance service. If revenues remain steady or increase it will be spun as support for boxed meals on long distance trains. There is no possible outcome that will be interpreted as needing better meals.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Actually, this has convinced me to go back to my first love, which was the Star. I would rather have a veggie burger (not bad) and their breakfast sandwich (also not bad), and be able to make my own choice of what to eat from a ""normal" menu than have an "enhanced" dining experience: a trendy-sounding bit of glop in a box while sitting surrounded by garbage in what was a beautiful new dining car. It's an insult to the lovely new dining car, the crew, and the passengers. It's ironic that the Star still seems to be not as expensive (so far) as the Meteor, at least on the dates I checked.

The Cardinal--well, what do we ride the Cardinal for except for the gorgeous, wonderful scenery? I could barely eat when I rode it because I couldn't take my eyes off the scenery. So I will miss the French Toast, but this might not be as bad as the other routes.

What I certainly won't do anymore is check the price difference between LD and the NEC, then take one of the east coast LD trains in a roomette for just a few hours--it was a special treat with the dining car; now, of course, there's no point. (And yes, I count myself very lucky that I could do that for a few years, living in the mid-Atlantic, and know that I was more spoiled than if I lived elsewhere.)


----------



## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> If revenues nosedive it will be spun as a reason to reduce or remove unwanted long distance service. If revenues remain steady or increase it will be spun as support for boxed meals on long distance trains. There is no possible outcome that will be interpreted as needing better meals.


Indeed. That is quite likely. Bureaucracies tend to behave similarly unless externalities of some sort or the other intervene.


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## Thirdrail7

Devil's Advocate said:


> If revenues nosedive it will be spun as a reason to reduce or remove unwanted long distance service. If revenues remain steady or increase it will be spun as support for boxed meals on long distance trains. There is no possible outcome that will be interpreted as needing better meals.





jis said:


> Indeed. That is quite likely. Bureaucracies tend to behave similarly unless externalities of some sort or the other intervene.



I'm not sure I agree with this. If revenue and ridership takes a nosedive and people take the time to link it to loss of services, then you can make the argument that you attempted to reduce your losses but the f&b is indeed a loss leader and vital to your operation. 

This was done on the the NEC. Cafe service was cut on the NYP-WAS service and ridership on those trains plummeted. The service was reluctantly brought back. 

The reality of the situation is ridership on the eastern LD trains will not plummet. Indeed, if they drop the price (which is why the Start looks so good on paper), it will flourish (on paper.)


----------



## jis

Yeah, good things could happen. It all depends on whether the powers that be actually want to keep running the LD trains or not though, and clearly part of that is being driven by externalities like the Congress and not by the Amtrak bureaucracy. I have no idea what the Amtrak bureaucracy wants, since they have been sending lots of mixed signals. A grumpy supercilious Chief does not help much either.

Incidentally, I have on more than one occasion suggested that we introduce trains with only Coach service, with a Cafe, like the Pioneer originally was, and have been summarily shot down by everyone. As the airlines have discovered, there is a price point - facilities be damned, where people will ride in droves. The question for them has been if they can accommodate that price point such that RASM remains just a bit higher than CASM. So if there is a real desire to expand service and someone can bell the freight RR cats I am quite certain that there will be riders provided they are offered rides at the correct price point.

I have been curious to see if Amtrak ridership has been keeping track with growth in population. While ridership has been growing, I am not sure it is keeping pace, while airline ridership is keeping pace and then some. That should be a reason for a bit of alarm.


----------



## Qapla

Instead of simply pulling the diner cars out of service, maybe they should try letting outside companies operate them. It could be done on an "individual" basis. The same company would not need to operate every diner on every train. A company could operate a single diner with their menu and service. You know, like hae an "Outback" diner on the SM and a "Texas Road House" diner on the TE - that sort of thing.

I realize this would cost Amtrak jobs ... but those jobs are being lost anyway - there would still be jobs, it would just be different jobs for different people.

Also, taking @jis suggestion, you could even run a "coach only" train with a cafe/lounge car connected to a brand-name diner car to allow for more seating.


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## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> I have been curious to see if Amtrak ridership has been keeping track with growth in population. While ridership has been growing, I am not sure it is keeping pace, while airline ridership is keeping pace and then some. That should be a reason for a bit of alarm.



Well, how can it keep pace with the population? You'd need to be able to add capacity, which means you need equipment. The original Acela equipment was the last real addition to the fleet, and that extra equipment resulted in additional ridership between NYP-BOS.

It is kind of Gardener's point. With limited financing and equipment, is a cross country trip a better use of assets than say multiple trips between two emerging cities?

My belief is you should push on and make the case to expand both programs instead of making it a one or the other choice.


----------



## Seaboard92

I have a few points I can make in here. First I’ll go with the facts then speculation. 

Facts
1. The Silver Meteor currently runs with 4-5 coaches on a regular basis. According to the leaked docs it is moving down to three coaches. Which is a cut of up to 118 seats per departure. 

Speculation 
1. Is that capacity ever truly needed at any point on the route and utilized or is it empty. I can’t speak to this because the last time I was on the Meteor was in 2017. And I predominantly ride in the sleepers. Or is it a cut to force sell outs to have more seats in the higher bucket to make more revenue but also decrease ridership. 

Fact
2. At one point in the 1990-2000s SBB CFF FSS in Switzerland contracted out their on board catering to McDonalds. However it was a short lived arrangement. And I really don’t know how it worked. 
3. ÖBB of Austria has contracted out food service on their EC, RJ and possibly the IC services. Last time I was in Europe it was Henry am Zug and the food was so so. And the diner lightly patronized. But of note European train stations unlike most of Amtrak’s have really good food outlets in them so patronage of the diner probably has something to do with that.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Facts
> 1. The Silver Meteor currently runs with 4-5 coaches on a regular basis. According to the leaked docs it is moving down to three coaches. Which is a cut of up to 118 seats per departure.


My interpretation of the slide was that 3 is the minimum. There is a starred footnote saying there may be additional cars based on demand. So based on thse slides alone there no way to know what the actual available seat numbers will be.


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Incidentally, I have on more than one occasion suggested that we introduce trains with only Coach service, with a Cafe, like the Pioneer originally was, and have been summarily shot down by everyone. As the airlines have discovered, there is a price point - facilities be damned, where people will ride in droves.



You make a good point. It's bad to lock Amtrak into the thinking that in order to operate a long distance train you have to operate a full service dining car. I mean the Silver Star does work without a diner...


----------



## Qapla

The last couple times I rode the Star (as recent as a month ago) it had 4 coaches. We rode to Tampa Palatka. The train was fairly full whe we got on. By the time we got to Tampa, the four coach cars were very full - we had walked thru them going to the lounge car.

Quite a number of people got off in Tampa ... but, almost as many got on as got off. Of course, this train still had to go to Miami.

We came back later the same day. Again, a decent number of people got off in Tampa and a large number of people got on. As we pulled out heading north, the train was a little more than half full. We got off before Palatka, before the train gets to JAX. There always seems to be a fairly large crowd boarding in JAX.

So, I guess you could say the Star works ... but the selections to eat in the lounge car are very lacking for a train that goes all the way to NYP. The through people do not have a very good selection for the 19 hour overnight trip.


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## neroden

A few years ago I and another poster really dug into the economics of the so-called long-distance trains as deep as we could. We came to some conclusions.

(1) The full-service dining car really do cost a lot to run. In order to cover its costs with increased ticket prices / ticket sales, they really needed to be turning over more tables. (This is the basics of the restaurant business.) No effort was made to do this; thoughtless staffing and operations choices reduced the number of tables served per day without reducing the costs comparably.
(2) The sleeper cars are cash factories. On some trains adding a sleeper seems less profitable than adding a coach; on the Lake Shore Limited adding a sleeper seems to be much more profitable than adding a coach.
(3) The cafe cars are cash factories. More selection == more cash. This does lead to the possibility that "enhanced cafe" service in the dining car is the way to go. Denying access to the dining car to coach customers, however, is a deeply retrograde and backwards step.

There have been trains, in the past, which had two different cafe cars offering different meal selections. This... isn't so far off from what Amtrak is trying now, except that *coach customers could buy meals from both*. This is also a model used on ships.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> It is kind of Gardener's point. With limited financing and equipment, is a cross country trip a better use of assets than say multiple trips between two emerging cities?



I would answer that multiple (on-time!) trips between New York and Chicago is a better use of assets than either.  It has the maximum of network effects, which is the best way to deploy economies of scale in a railroad.

New York is the largest metro area in the US. Chicago is the third-largest.

LA is the second-largest metro area, but the distance from LA to Chicago is so large, with so much empty space in between, that it can't really support more than one train per day given airline competiton.

Also, New York has the largest network of local rail in the US, by whatever measure you choose to use. Chicago has the second-largest, again by any measure. (Boston, Philadelphia, DC, and San Francisco are in the next tier, but they're way back.)

NY-Chicago *can* support multiple trains per day; the network effects benefit both the NY network and the Chicago network as well as the trains between them. In railroading you gain economies of scale by stopping at large cities along the way -- and there are lots of them, on at least three different routes. Most of which already have one passenger train running. You gain economies of scale by running multiple trains per day on the same track, as well. Which is why, financially speaking, making the most of limited resources, getting the greatest bang for your buck, the optimal path for an additional trip is Chicago-Michigan Line-Detroit-Toledo-Cleveland-Erie-Buffalo-Empire Line-NYC.

The Florida trains would similary be good contenders for increased service if the local rail network in Florida wasn't so weak, and if they actually bothered to connect to the network in Miami. There's an extraordinarily grotesque example of Amtrak deciding not to use their assets wisely -- terminating in Hialeah rather than going into the Miami Airport station which was specifically built for them.

But as another discussion has been mentioning, Amtrak can't even manage to get the connections between the Lake Shore Limited and the Vermonter working, so Amtrak management shows no signs of actually caring about efficient use of assets.


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## dlagrua

Back in the day trains had luncheonette cars where there was a long counter with seats all along it and I believe with tables beyond. You took a seat at the counter, placed your order, it was served to you and you ate there. They served some prepared food but you could get some grilled stuff. Maybe Amtrak should look at bringing back the lunch counters of old.


----------



## jis

dlagrua said:


> Back in the day trains had luncheonette cars where there was a long counter with seats all along it and I believe with tables beyond. You took a seat at the counter, placed your order, it was served to you and you ate there. They served some prepared food but you could get some grilled stuff. Maybe Amtrak should look at bringing back the lunch counters of old.


What was the staffing level in these? Will require more than one LSA?


----------



## Winecliff Station

dlagrua said:


> Back in the day trains had luncheonette cars where there was a long counter with seats all along it and I believe with tables beyond. You took a seat at the counter, placed your order, it was served to you and you ate there. They served some prepared food but you could get some grilled stuff. Maybe Amtrak should look at bringing back the lunch counters of old.



They're all over the state of NY now as stationary diners....pun not intended


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## JustOnce

jis said:


> Here is something that I just came across...
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AQjubZvWEt6P9C6wuV4wCZuwg-gtpiqA/view



I only know a little about the onboard service operating crafts and positions. Some of the abbreviations are confusing. Help me out here
I get that the LSA is the "lead service attendant" a craft that's separate from the others. Only the LSA can handle cash and sign for supplies from the commissary. There are probably a couple other bargaining agreement stipulations that only an LSA can perform. There's one for a lounge car who handles everything and one for the dining car who acts as cashier (and maitre d'? manager?).

CH stands for chef I presume. I recall that's a separate craft. I see that was only used on trains with full diners.

I also recall that other than LSA and chef, most train service jobs were one craft, cross-trained as waiters, chef's assistants, sleeping car attendants, and coach attendants.
I'm guessing SA is a service attendant (waiter?) and FS is food service (chef's assistant).

What's an LD position? What am I missing? Why did some of these trains not have an LSA? It looks like diner lite/cross country cafe trains had a different staffing model.

I'm still don't understand why they want to make diners sleeper lounges and not attempt to sell the boxed meals to coach passengers. My first thought was they wanted to eliminate an LSA slot (replace with lower paid OBS) by not having money change hands, but they're using LSAs in the sleeper lounges.



neroden said:


> A few years ago I and another poster really dug into the economics of the so-called long-distance trains as deep as we could. We came to some conclusions.
> 
> (1) The full-service dining car really do cost a lot to run. In order to cover its costs with increased ticket prices / ticket sales, they really needed to be turning over more tables. (This is the basics of the restaurant business.) No effort was made to do this; thoughtless staffing and operations choices reduced the number of tables served per day without reducing the costs comparably.


They do cost a lot and lose money, but they also lost money for every additional meal served. They likely had no chance of making the money back with a higher volume and couldn't price above what the market would bear. And now their ability to subsidize these costs from other revenues has been legally eliminated. 


> (2) The sleeper cars are cash factories. On some trains adding a sleeper seems less profitable than adding a coach; on the Lake Shore Limited adding a sleeper seems to be much more profitable than adding a coach.


On this point I will agree with you. From management statements I recall, sleepers to make money: adding bunks adds more profit. The limiting factor has been sleeper availability. The additional V2 dorms and sleepers can't come soon enough.


> (3) The cafe cars are cash factories. More selection == more cash. This does lead to the possibility that "enhanced cafe" service in the dining car is the way to go. Denying access to the dining car to coach customers, however, is a deeply retrograde and backwards step.


Again I disagree with you. Cafe service has been a money loser even with the almost stadium-level pricing. NY won't pay to subsidize cafe service on trains that don't travel past Albany.


> There have been trains, in the past, which had two different cafe cars offering different meal selections. This... isn't so far off from what Amtrak is trying now, except that *coach customers could buy meals from both*. This is also a model used on ships.


Two cafe cars probably means twice the money loss. Remember ships are often registered with flags of convenience and not governed by US labor laws and wage standards. Crews maybe non-American and not expecting US-standard wages.


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## jis

AFAICT

LD I believe is LSA Diner.
CH is Chef
FS is Food Specialist

Maybe Thirdrail or someone else with knowledge of Amtrak OBS positions can help out deciphering.


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## jis

jis said:


> AFAICT
> 
> LD I believe is LSA Diner.
> CH is Chef
> FS is Food Specialist
> 
> Maybe Thirdrail or someone else with knowledge of Amtrak OBS positions can help out deciphering.


Ah! Just found a more complete list:

AT-Auto Train Attendant
CH-Chef
LD-LSA Diner
SA-Service Attendant
FS-Food Specialist
LS-LSA Cafe


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## dlagrua

jis said:


> What was the staffing level in these? Will require more than one LSA?


Depending on the number of seats there were one or two food service employees in that car. In years past they were called "short order cooks" If you wanted a chicken or egg salad sandwich, they would open a large container scoop it out, put in on two slices of bread and serve you with a sliced pickle and some chips on your plate. If you wanted a burger they placed it on the grill behind the counter, went on to serve other patrons and then served it when it was done. If you wanted soup there was a pot of heated soup that they just scooped out some and put it in a bowl. It was a simple system and they didn't even have microwave ovens back then. I believe that picture was an early Amtrak luncheon car. If you wanted coffee the urn was always full. Not only were these cars in service there were also cars which they served hot food smorgasbord style. I believe that even the early Autotrain had it.


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## Anthony V

jis said:


> Merely getting rid of the language won't do it. It will require addition of imperative language regarding improving food service. That is unlikely to happen though.
> 
> Frankly, what is happening is basically following what happened to the airlines, with a time lag of a decade or two. You are right. As long as there is not significant negative impact on revenues, there will be no reversal of this.
> 
> In comparison with the airline industry, what is worse is, there being no real competition in the LD sector, the reversal of trends in upper class service in the airline industry may not repeat itself on passenger rail without much stronger intervention from outside. And in any case, whatever happens will have to happen with a lower baseline labor cost. It is quite unlikely that things will ever go back to the way things were.


I beg to differ on your statement that full dining service will never return to the trains losing it. Look back to the 24 hour diner experiment on the SL, which was successful on eliminating F&B losses on that train, while preserving full dining service. Once new leadership (both at Amtrak and in the Executive Branch) takes over, we should all write to Congress to pass legislation mandating full service diners to return on ALL LD trains and require them be open 24 hours.


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## crescent-zephyr

I still say they eliminated the wrong position, keep the chef, eliminate the LSA. I could deal with the lack of table service (especially since “service” was always questionable) much better than the lack of a basic menu.


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## Bob Dylan

Anthony V said:


> I beg to differ on your statement that full dining service will never return to the trains losing it. Look back to the 24 hour diner experiment on the SL, which was successful on eliminating F&B losses on that train, while preserving full dining service. Once new leadership (both at Amtrak and in the Executive Branch) takes over, we should all write to Congress to pass legislation mandating full service diners to return on ALL LD trains and require them be open 24 hours.


I'll have some of what you're Smoking! 
Seriously????


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## Dakota 400

Coby, Welcome back to the Forum! I am glad to learn that you check in from time to time.


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## Dakota 400

I am now officially confused by this thread. Before I decide on my return route from Florida North in January, will the Auto Train have a full service Diner for Sleeping Car guests or not?


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## jis

Auto Train Sleeper will continue to have full service dining. In addition as a bonus you’ll get free booze too! Enjoy!


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## jis

Anthony V said:


> I beg to differ on your statement that full dining service will never return to the trains losing it. Look back to the 24 hour diner experiment on the SL, which was successful on eliminating F&B losses on that train, while preserving full dining service. Once new leadership (both at Amtrak and in the Executive Branch) takes over, we should all write to Congress to pass legislation mandating full service diners to return on ALL LD trains and require them be open 24 hours.



All I said is that the level of staffing in Diners will not return. 

Of course everyone is allowed their own fantasies. I would not deny that to anyone. [emoji57]


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## Qapla

It does not take much equipment, space or people to make "fresh" subs like Subway does (and, remember, Subway is the largest "fast-food chain" in the world) ... that type of service would be simple to put on a train - and it would not have to be a "chain" sub shop.

Adding a flat grill - hamburgers, fried eggs, and a few other things could be added to the mix.

Having a car like the one @dlagrua posted would make this fairly easy ... although the current cafe/lounge cars have enough room for the fresh sub idea

Meals could be served in a car like this with 3 people/employees. There is no reason a car like that should not be able to make money without overpricing the menu (like it is now) - after all, Subway makes money with their modest pricing ... and they are having to pay rent to be on a storefront.


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## Seaboard92

As one of the few members here who has working experience in a dining car. On both ends customer facing, and in the kitchen I can speak on the subject. 

Honestly I would always want to have at least three servers (can include LSA’s) because that’s the only way to provide good service to your passengers. 

Between seating passengers, getting orders, filling drinks, filling orders, bussing tables, resetting tables, and handling checks. One person could not service a 48 seat diner and do a good job. 

Even two people doing all of that is setting the crew up for failure. You really need to have three to four people to accomplish the mission. 

And in the kitchen it depends what style meal you are making. When I’ve worked kitchen we had three options total so we were able to do with a small crew of four. Two cooking, one on dishes, and one plating. But when I worked New River Train we had seven in each kitchen. 

But we were making 1,000 plus meals out of two diners. Hence we needed a larger crew to keep track of inventory, dishes, plating, and preparation. 

I loved my time in a diner. It was probably the favorite job I’ve had on the rails. I would love to do it again. And it’s a real shame Amtrak is doing away with it because I would have happily worked for them doing it.


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## crescent-zephyr

Seaboard92 said:


> As one of the few members here who has working experience in a dining car.


 You can count me in that mix as well.  



Qapla said:


> Meals could be served in a car like this with 3 people/employees.


Meals can be served in an Amtrak dining car with 3 employees.


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## jebr

Qapla said:


> There is no reason a car like that should not be able to make money without overpricing the menu (like it is now) - after all, Subway makes money with their modest pricing ... and they are having to pay rent to be on a storefront.



There's still a cost to operating a train car, especially once the cost to purchase and maintain that car are factored in. Furthermore, Amtrak will have a much higher labor cost than the average restaurant, simply by its very nature. Amtrak has to pay enough to compensate for being away from home for days at a time, having a schedule that precludes most other part-time jobs, and essentially needing to hire full-time employees. There's going to be very few people that would work on Amtrak if they can get the same pay at the local Subway - at least working at the local Subway you get to sleep in your own bed every night! Currently, the cafe car operates with one staff member, and with contemporary dining there's typically only one staff member in that car. Anything beyond a heat-and-eat concept would almost certainly require at least one additional staff member, which Amtrak is trying to avoid retaining/adding if at all possible.


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## crescent-zephyr

Even if they paid the subway / fast food pay scale the costs are still totally different. You have to cover that employees hotel at the end point, and their transportation to and from the hotel. You also can’t deliver supplies to the train once or twice a week on a normal truck route, instead a commercial commissary has to deliver the entire inventory every time the the car departs the terminal.

You can’t make it profitable.


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## ehbowen

Seaboard92 said:


> Honestly I would always want to have at least three servers (can include LSA’s) because that’s the only way to provide good service to your passengers.
> 
> Between seating passengers, getting orders, filling drinks, filling orders, bussing tables, resetting tables, and handling checks. One person could not service a 48 seat diner and do a good job.
> 
> Even two people doing all of that is setting the crew up for failure. You really need to have three to four people to accomplish the mission.
> 
> And in the kitchen it depends what style meal you are making. When I’ve worked kitchen we had three options total so we were able to do with a small crew of four. Two cooking, one on dishes, and one plating. But when I worked New River Train we had seven in each kitchen.



Don't anyone try and tell me that the private railroads threw away money on extra people just for the fun of it. Yes, I know that wages were much lower in those days, but so were revenues and the railroad owners liked money just as much then as now. Seaboard92 is correct. A 48 seat diner in the classic days would normally operate with *11* employees...a chef, a cook, two assistant cooks, six waiters (one for every two tables), and a steward in overall charge of the car. When your reputation and your profitability for the overall passenger operation rests in large measure upon your food and you have to serve 300 passengers out of a single 48 seat diner, you have to turn those tables.

If all you care about is nickels and dimes, you're going to have a nickel-and-dime operation. When your focus is on providing excellent service, you're going to have customers who want to come back. Amtrak's incentives, and those of the host railroads, at the present time are all wrong. And I don't see a change of political leadership, in either party, as salvation as long as the current short-term mentality remains in place.

What is the answer? Dunno, short of divine intervention. Worth asking for, IMHO.


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## PVD

If you look at food service as a standalone item you will always have a problem. Most businesses would look at food service in terms of the bigger picture: how many more customers will use my service? can I charge everyone more because they see my service as being worth it? It doesn't have to make money or break even on its own, it has to be part of a plan for the whole entity to make more money.


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## Larry H.

Qapla said:


> It does not take much equipment, space or people to make "fresh" subs like Subway does (and, remember, Subway is the largest "fast-food chain" in the world) ... that type of service would be simple to put on a train - and it would not have to be a "chain" sub shop.
> 
> Adding a flat grill - hamburgers, fried eggs, and a few other things could be added to the mix.
> 
> Having a car like the one @dlagrua posted would make this fairly easy ... although the current cafe/lounge cars have enough room for the fresh sub idea
> 
> Meals could be served in a car like this with 3 people/employees. There is no reason a car like that should not be able to make money without overpricing the menu (like it is now) - after all, Subway makes money with their modest pricing ... and they are having to pay rent to be on a storefront.



While I agree with the idea, I must note that Subway was among the chains likely to go out of business within the next year or so due to low sales. This was in a yahoo article about companies that would no longer be around in a year or so.


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## Seaboard92

Well like EHBowen said the dining car used to be the Loss Leader of passenger trains. It was provided because it was a needed service on board the trains. With dining cars railroads were able to eliminate meal stops, and continue rolling for starters. After that it was a point of pride to have the best meal service possible. 

And the private railroads offered some truly memorable meals. 

The Illinois Central “Kings Dinner”. Which had a Cocktail, a shrimp cocktail or crab fingers for an appetizer, a fish course, a broiled steak, apple wedges for dessert, and a 13 Oz bottle of wine for 9.85 in the 1950s. 

And that was on the route of today’s City of New Orleans and a far cry from what’s available now before this new contemporary crap comes out. 

And of course the New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad Systems we’re fiercely competing with each other. And produced some meals that were out of this world. 

The Northern Pacific was known by their Big Baked Potato so much so that they built their Seattle commissary in the shape of a large potato. 

Even into the late 60s till Amtrak Day the B&O/C&O, Seaboard Coastline, Illinois Central, Union Pacific, and Santa Fe were all still putting out great meals and took a lot of pride from it. 

Dining cars never made money, and the old railroaders knew that. They were there to raise the prestige of the train.


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## Qapla

Larry H. said:


> I must note that Subway was among the chains likely to go out of business within the next year or so due to low sales. This was in a yahoo article about companies that would no longer be around in a year or so.



And Arby's wasn't supposed to survive the early 1980's - we see what happened there.

There are many independent sub shops that are making money hand-over-fist ... even if Subway were to fail, partly due to their high franchise fees, it does not follow that the "made fresh" sub is a bad concept - it works just fine.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Qapla said:


> And Arby's wasn't supposed to survive the early 1980's - we see what happened there.
> 
> There are many independent sub shops that are making money hand-over-fist ... even if Subway were to fail, partly due to their high franchise fees, it does not follow that the "made fresh" sub is a bad concept - it works just fine.


Plenty of Sub Shops, both Chain and Independant, doing good business here in Austin which is currently booming in all areas, but just like Starbucks, there will be shakeout due to building them on every corner, aka "Greed is good!"


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## Qapla

Yes, but putting "one on every train" is not quite the same as "one on every corner"


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## PaulM

Just exactly when does the changes to the SM come about. I was curious and checked prices before and after Oct 1.

WAS to ORL, roomette, 2 persons, $ premium SM over SS:

Sep 23 thru 30: $29, 49, 49, 49, 49, 49, 86, 69.

Oct 1 thru 7: $49, 49, 49, 29, 29, 49, 29.

It doesn't take any sophisticated analysis to see there is no difference.

It almost looks like the revenue managers foresee that the announcement of the service level drop will depress demand for the SM even before it actually happens. I was under the impression that the premium had been much higher. than shown for Sep 23 - 30.


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## Winecliff Station

PaulM said:


> Just exactly when does the changes to the SM come about. I was curious and checked prices before and after Oct 1.
> 
> WAS to ORL, roomette, 2 persons, $ premium SM over SS:
> 
> Sep 23 thru 30: $29, 49, 49, 49, 49, 49, 86, 69.
> 
> Oct 1 thru 7: $49, 49, 49, 29, 29, 49, 29.
> 
> It doesn't take any sophisticated analysis to see there is no difference.
> 
> It almost looks like the revenue managers foresee that the announcement of the service level drop will depress demand for the SM even before it actually happens. I was under the impression that the premium had been much higher. than shown for Sep 23 - 30.



I think if Amtrak were to change price points in relation to the removal of the diner cars, it would be seen as an admission to lower value, and therefore lower quality of the meal service. Since I don't see that happening I'm assuming there will be no reflection by way of reduction in fares.


----------



## philabos

Seaboard92 said:


> Well like EHBowen said the dining car used to be the Loss Leader of passenger trains. It was provided because it was a needed service on board the trains. With dining cars railroads were able to eliminate meal stops, and continue rolling for starters. After that it was a point of pride to have the best meal service possible.
> 
> And the private railroads offered some truly memorable meals.
> 
> The Illinois Central “Kings Dinner”. Which had a Cocktail, a shrimp cocktail or crab fingers for an appetizer, a fish course, a broiled steak, apple wedges for dessert, and a 13 Oz bottle of wine for 9.85 in the 1950s.
> 
> And that was on the route of today’s City of New Orleans and a far cry from what’s available now before this new contemporary crap comes out.
> 
> And of course the New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad Systems we’re fiercely competing with each other. And produced some meals that were out of this world.
> 
> The Northern Pacific was known by their Big Baked Potato so much so that they built their Seattle commissary in the shape of a large potato.
> 
> Even into the late 60s till Amtrak Day the B&O/C&O, Seaboard Coastline, Illinois Central, Union Pacific, and Santa Fe were all still putting out great meals and took a lot of pride from it.
> 
> Dining cars never made money, and the old railroaders knew that. They were there to raise the prestige of the train.



You are absolutely right. The Century served Lobster Newberg right up to the last day. It was great.
Even the lowly PRR President had a full diner out of New York in the morning and it would be full with a line by the Newark station stop. Those Pennsy crews knew how to turn tables with the waiters hustling to get the fabulous poached eggs on corned beef hash out with hot individual pots of coffee while the steward moved constantly up and down the car to make change (no credit cards then). It amazed me how many people they could serve just between NY and Philadelphia .
Sadly, you could never do it today IMHO. The crews, economics, and customers have changed. Everyone seems happy with a coffee and bagel in a bag from Zaros.


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## Thirdrail7

Seaboard92 said:


> A
> But we were making 1,000 plus meals out of two diners. Hence we needed a larger crew to keep track of inventory, dishes, plating, and preparation.



What you mentioned here is the key. As annoying as it is, Amtrak has made the premise of the dining car obsolete by cutting the potential for the use of the dining car.

Amtrak has continually cut the available seats on these trains over the years. If the consist was expanded, you would likely reduce your losses. Years ago, you may have had 300-360 coach passengers, 20-30 bedroom passengers, 18-24 roomette passengers and 32-64 slumbercoach passengers on the train. 

At this point, the typical base eastern consist accommodates roughly 20 roomettes, 6 bedrooms capacity for 180 coach passengers. An expanded consist may hold 60 to 120 more coach passengers. Additionally, there are only a limited amount of seating designated for actually long distance travel so out of the 240 seats, you may have 120 that may be on the train long enough to choose the dining car over the cafe. it more seats were actually designated for longer travel, you may see the dining car receiving more patronage.

However, the consist are still being cut and you compete against your own cafe car, plus the food courts that surround you major stations. 

It makes sense that money is lost.


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## Larry H.

Speaking of the old days of diners. I got a gift of a copy of the "Dining by Rail" which is an absolutely wonderful history of the diners along with photos and top recipes of nearly every railroad of the time. On a local level I was always impressed by the GM&O from St. Louis to Chicago. When Union station was all but deserted they still ran a fully functioning and very fine dining car. The breakfast were wonderful and the meals on the return trip well prepared as well. Plus the parlor car had a wonderful older gentleman who was the porter and catered to everyones needs in a very well built and maintained car, sometime with a fan tale lounge in the rear third of the seating. The dining by rail discusses how the railroads when they cared really wanted to outdo the competitors service and as has been said usually they ran at a cost of meals that only covered about half the expense. No matter they wanted to treat the passengers to a diner worthy of the best in their home towns. How far Amtrak has fallen from those goals. Odd how the powers that be almost have no comprehension on what a train trip is and how it should be run. I also agree that the consist have for years been far short of previous breakdowns. Remember too many had a first class lounge, first class diner and well as a Coach diner and lounge. I saw a photo in trains magazine recently of the combined "City" trains approaching California and you could count 32 passenger coaches.


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## CSXfoamer1997

I am fed up with the way Richard Anderson is running Amtrak! He runs it like it's an airline company!


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## crescent-zephyr

Here's the thing... Anderson is partly right. The dining car model is pretty old fashioned.

In my opinion the best idea Amtrak ever had was the ORIGINAL cross country cafe concept which kept the chef downstairs but consolidated all of the food service to one car which eliminated the lounge LSA and could have easily eliminated 1 server as well. (In my mind you would want to keep 1 server to assist the LSA, but in the new model the Sleeping Car Attendants could do that?). 

Ideally... the basic setup for LD trains would be the CCC concept with a chef but no table service. And then select trains would have a "Premium" dining car that in reality might be more like the Pacific Parlour car with a limited, but fancy menu. Limited private seating. And maybe you have to pay extra for it. Kinda like on the cruise ships where the buffet and main dining room are free but you pay extra for the private table fancy experiences.


----------



## jis

PaulM said:


> Just exactly when does the changes to the SM come about. I was curious and checked prices before and after Oct 1.
> 
> WAS to ORL, roomette, 2 persons, $ premium SM over SS:
> 
> Sep 23 thru 30: $29, 49, 49, 49, 49, 49, 86, 69.
> 
> Oct 1 thru 7: $49, 49, 49, 29, 29, 49, 29.
> 
> It doesn't take any sophisticated analysis to see there is no difference.
> 
> It almost looks like the revenue managers foresee that the announcement of the service level drop will depress demand for the SM even before it actually happens. I was under the impression that the premium had been much higher. than shown for Sep 23 - 30.


You are wasting your time doing this analysis. No one has said that there will be any change in ticket prices. Food is still included in the Sleeper ticket. It is just different food delivered in a different "style".


----------



## Ryan

I'm coining a new term, in the vein of Godwin's law. Stavely's Law shall be that for any given thread on AU, the probability of a discussion turning to AutoTrain expansion increases to 1.


----------



## lordsigma

Still no official word whatsoever from Amtrak. Are they fighting with the Union? Trying to finalize the details of the new setup? I wonder how much notice they will give Crescent and Meteor passengers I would have thought this would have come out officially by now as the Auto Train announcement came out quite a while ago..


----------



## OBS

lordsigma said:


> Still no official word whatsoever from Amtrak. Are they fighting with the Union? Trying to finalize the details of the new setup? I wonder how much notice they will give Crescent and Meteor passengers I would have thought this would have come out officially by now as the Auto Train announcement came out quite a while ago..


Trust me, there is no delay because of the union. It has no contractual leverage in the situation.


----------



## pennyk

Ryan said:


> I'm coining a new term, in the vein of Godwin's law. Stavely's Law shall be that for any given thread on AU, the probability of a discussion turning to AutoTrain expansion increases to 1.



 Staff is in the process of moving the Auto Train expansion posts to a new thread in the Amtrak Future subforum:
https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/threads/auto-train-expansion-changes.75952/

Please, please post any future comments about Auto Train expansion/changes in that thread and limit comments in this thread to contemporary dining on eastern trains.

Thank you,
Staff


----------



## Winecliff Station

pennyk said:


> Staff is in the process of moving the Auto Train expansion posts to a new thread in the Amtrak Future subforum:
> https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/threads/auto-train-expansion-changes.75952/
> 
> Please, please post any future comments about Auto Train expansion/changes in that thread and limit comments in this thread to contemporary dining on eastern trains.
> 
> Thank you,
> Staff


Wow I really didn't mean to open a Pandora's box with such a minor aside.... just thinking out loud about why the diner cars aren't being stripped from the AT as early as the other routes.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Has anyone been on the actual “Alaska railroad” operated cars operated by the state of Alaska as opposed to the cruise ship operated coaches? 

The Alaska railroad website is interesting and even the off peak dead of winter Menu looks better than anything Amtrak offers. Simple and reasonably priced.

“The Alaska Railroad offers dining and bar service for purchase on every passenger train with the exception of the Hurricane Turn Train. Please note that our trains are cashless; for your convenience, we accept all major credit cards including debit and pre-paid cards that can be run as a credit

GoldStar Service is inclusive of meals, soft drinks, and two complimentary adult beverages.”

https://www.alaskarailroad.com/travel-planning/onboard-experience/dining


----------



## pennyk

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Has anyone been on the actual “Alaska railroad” operated cars operated by the state of Alaska as opposed to the cruise ship operated coaches?
> 
> The Alaska railroad website is interesting and even the off peak dead of winter Menu looks better than anything Amtrak offers. Simple and reasonably priced.
> 
> “The Alaska Railroad offers dining and bar service for purchase on every passenger train with the exception of the Hurricane Turn Train. Please note that our trains are cashless; for your convenience, we accept all major credit cards including debit and pre-paid cards that can be run as a credit
> 
> GoldStar Service is inclusive of meals, soft drinks, and two complimentary adult beverages.”
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/travel-planning/onboard-experience/dining


Yes, in May 2017, I traveled from Anchorage to Fairbanks on the "actual" Alaska Railroad in GoldStar Service. It was great, however, I am not sure why you are asking this question in a thread about Amtrak cutting traditional diners on its eastern trains.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Because it’s just another way it could be done. Different service levels/standards summer vs winter. Even Via has cooked to order meals for a short period during the peak season on the Churchill train. I was just curious if the Alaska service is as service intensive as an Amtrak diner is or was. We (Amtrak) should be trying to learn from similar operations what works and what doesn’t. Is this a way to model dining on experimental trains?


----------



## pennyk

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Because it’s just another way it could be done. Different service levels/standards summer vs winter. Even Via has cooked to order meals for a short period during the peak season on the Churchill train. I was just curious if the Alaska service is as service intensive as an Amtrak diner is or was. We (Amtrak) should be trying to learn from similar operations what works and what doesn’t.


I do not think comparing the Alaska Railroad to Amtrak is a reasonable comparison (and maybe this thread is not the proper venue to make such a comparison).


----------



## keelhauled

If you look at the Alaska Railroad menu, you will find that the food service is provided by a subcontractor, which is in general infeasible on Amtrak, and doubly so for the existing long distance trains.


----------



## Ryan

I would bet that neither operation has a Congressional mandate to not lose money on their dining services.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ryan said:


> I would bet that neither operation has a Congressional mandate to not lose money on their dining services.



But both Alaska and VIA are in the same boat as far as getting government funding.


----------



## PVD

There is a huge difference between a system that looks at aggregate results, versus one that looks at individual services by themselves. A slightly larger loss in one department often results in much larger gains in another. That's how most businesses run, even government managed. Amtrak is prevented from doing that. The isolation of food service as a profit center is not typical in the transportation industry. Look at the DownEaster, I've brought it up before. It uses contractors and non bargaining unit labor for food service. It loses money. But the agency running those trains is of the belief that the losses on food are more than made up by increased ridership and the ability to charge more for the service because of the perceived value.


----------



## Chessie

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Has anyone been on the actual “Alaska railroad” operated cars operated by the state of Alaska as opposed to the cruise ship operated coaches?
> 
> The Alaska railroad website is interesting and even the off peak dead of winter Menu looks better than anything Amtrak offers. Simple and reasonably priced.
> 
> “The Alaska Railroad offers dining and bar service for purchase on every passenger train with the exception of the Hurricane Turn Train. Please note that our trains are cashless; for your convenience, we accept all major credit cards including debit and pre-paid cards that can be run as a credit
> 
> GoldStar Service is inclusive of meals, soft drinks, and two complimentary adult beverages.”
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/travel-planning/onboard-experience/dining



I was on the Anchorage to Seward segment earlier this summer. In a regular coach, not Gold Star and not cruise line operated. I was assigned a seat at the very last row of the very last car. The rail fan window and the dome cars were both very popular features. 

The cashless operation made no difference to most but it caught some people by surprise. A couple in front of me were hoping to use cash in the cafe car and were politely told they had to use a card.


----------



## Ryan

crescent-zephyr said:


> But both Alaska and VIA are in the same boat as far as getting government funding.


With very different strings attached.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ryan said:


> With very different strings attached.



Indeed. But it’s the closest we’ve got for comparisons. Both the Denali Star and the Canadian specifically are seen / used as tourist draws so they are definitely a different ball game than Amtrak. Closest comparison there would be the coast starlight with the parlour cars.


----------



## Seaboard92

Or the Ocean to Halifax. That train is more local than tourist.


----------



## dlagrua

For those that are advocating for the Amtrak dining service to be taken over by a private corporation; I believe that we are seeing that now on the Eastern routes. Almost all of the dining car people are gone. Only one employee is left who is paid a fair wage to give out boxes of food packed by private industry. While we get to eat horrible food, all the money in the dining operation now goes to a food packing service that most likely uses underpaid labor to pack them. If these cuts do not meet the goal, the next step will probably be to fire the Amtrak employee and replace him/her with cheap private labor and serve frozen pizza. Its really criminal how Amtrak has treated their own food service employees all in the quest to meet the impossible task of making the dining cars profitable.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Seaboard92 said:


> Or the Ocean to Halifax. That train is more local than tourist.



Yes. And they don’t have an on board
Chef, but served catered meals. But, as you know better than me, they are plated nicely and served dining car style.

What’s the arrangement on Alaska? Airline meals plated nicely? Or on board chef.


----------



## Siegmund

I rode the Alaska Railroad a number of times when I lived up there, both in the state-run portion and the Princess Tours portion. (They both ran specials at the beginning and end of season to appeal to locals who otherwise wouldn't ride.)

The furnishings, food, and service were excellent. And riding a real dome car was a treat.

But it's a tourist train, both unusable and unaffordable as actual transportation. Coach fares were north of 50 cents a mile already when Amtrak's can still be under 15. Alaska had driven away 99% of the local travel business already 25 years ago.
It's hard to even GET a fare quote from Anchorage to Fairbanks, since everyone gets off in Denali.


----------



## neroden

JustOnce said:


> Again I disagree with you. Cafe service has been a money loser even with the almost stadium-level pricing. NY won't pay to subsidize cafe service on trains that don't travel past Albany.



Even Amtrak admits that the cafe cars as a group are profitable, and that most of them are profitable individually.

They're profitable.

The big problem, as for all restaurants, is *quantity*. The cafe cars are, mostly, managing sufficient turnover -- particularly on the routes with longer travel times. The Downeaster is a bit too short; doesn't cross mealtimes for enough people. The NY-Albany "short runs" might be too short too, but nobody's checked in years, so I'm betting they'd be profitable -- there's a shortage of cafe cars though, so I suspect Amtrak won't assign a cafe unless the state demands it or buys its own car.

The dining cars aren't managing sufficient turnover -- as ThirdRail points out, they used to be operating continuously all day long and filling all their tables. For various reasons ranging from shorter consists to understaffing, they're not doing that now. Frankly on routes with lower demand and more price-sensitive coach customers like the Texas Eagle, they could probably never do that.

On the Lake Shore Limited, with proper dining cars, they could have had much higher turnover, if they'd advertised properly to coach customers.



> I'm still don't understand why they want to make diners sleeper lounges and not attempt to sell the boxed meals to coach passengers.


Stupidity.


----------



## jis

Fortunately, I rode the Winter Aurora from Anchorage to Fairbanks and back. This train has a single run each week, out from Anchorage on Saturday and return from Fairbanks on Sunday, and operates only in the Winter when there are no other passenger trains except the Hurricane Turn which apparently operates monthly from Anchorage to Hurricane and back. There were no Denali passengers on it, since Denali was closed for the season and the train did not even stop at Denali Park. Interestingly it stopped at Hurricane to pick up a bunch of people who arrived on a couple of snowmobiles. It had steadily snowed several feet the previous night. It also stopped several times at various trails between Hurricane and Talkeetna to pick up local folks who had flagged it down. They were typically heading into town for grocery or medical office visits and such. Alaska Railroad serves as a lifeline for the folks who live along it, something that is not too visible from the tourist runs I suppose.

The train did have food service. I had lunch on both rides to and from Fairbanks. The item I had was a Bar-B-Que something or the other, pre-plated and heated before serving. It was quite good, and yes the service was cashless, and pickup food at the counter and take it to your table. They used one of those square card reader attachments for an iPhone with the associated App. You either had a credit card or you did not eat, unless you brought something on your own.

In the tourists season they apparently run trains other than those for tourists, and the tickets are available only on board from the Conductor, is how it was explained to me. I don't know whether that is still true. On this train the Conductor did brisk business selling tickets to all those impromptu riders who boarded after flagging the train down in the middle of nowhere. There is absolutely nothing like that experience to be had anywhere in the lower 48 AFAICT.

Incidentally, when we arrived in Fairbanks in the evening it was -35F with winds howling and piles of snow on the ground. The Taxi driver was a Punjabi Sikh, who was delighted to have run into a fellow Indian, and he insisted that I have dinner with him at his favorite Indian watering hole in Fairbanks before getting dropped off at my hotel. And so it was.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Awesome story JIS. Reminds me when people tell me, quite confidently, that the only people who ride the Canadian are tourists. When I rode I met college students, people traveling to Saskatchawan for work, a family with kids who were riding in coach but wanted to eat in the "fancy" diner, and a man who was in the process of moving from Toronto to Vancouver and wanted to take the train vs. drive or fly. 

While I would prefer to visit Alaska in a warmer time of year, visiting in the winter sounds like a much more cultural experience!


----------



## cocojacoby

neroden said:


> Even Amtrak admits that the cafe cars as a group are profitable, and that most of them are profitable individually.
> 
> They're profitable.
> 
> The big problem, as for all restaurants, is *quantity*. The cafe cars are, mostly, managing sufficient turnover -- particularly on the routes with longer travel times. The Downeaster is a bit too short; doesn't cross mealtimes for enough people. The NY-Albany "short runs" might be too short too, but nobody's checked in years, so I'm betting they'd be profitable -- there's a shortage of cafe cars though, so I suspect Amtrak won't assign a cafe unless the state demands it or buys its own car.
> 
> The dining cars aren't managing sufficient turnover -- as ThirdRail points out, they used to be operating continuously all day long and filling all their tables. For various reasons ranging from shorter consists to understaffing, they're not doing that now. Frankly on routes with lower demand and more price-sensitive coach customers like the Texas Eagle, they could probably never do that.
> 
> On the Lake Shore Limited, with proper dining cars, they could have had much higher turnover, if they'd advertised properly to coach customers.
> 
> 
> Stupidity.



Exactly. The Lake Shore Limited is the perfect place to try out a 24-hour dining car which was supposedly a success on the Sunset Limited which travels through much less populated areas.


----------



## Seaboard92

The one time I’ve been on the Canadian most of the people I was with were Canadians and not tourists. One was a family going to pick up a new car from Tennessee taking the train from Unity, SK to Toronto. Some college students, other various rural travel. The only tourists I remember were in Prestige, and one Australian Father-Daughter.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> While I would prefer to visit Alaska in a warmer time of year, visiting in the winter sounds like a much more cultural experience!


Yeah. I loved it, the whole thing about getting to talk to the locals who live mostly off the grid and go into town only when absolutely necessary. It was quite fascinating.

Also, we were allowed to open the Dutch Doors and take photos while freezing our noses off our faces in the beyond ice cold air rushing by, and getting running commentary from locals on what we were passing etc. Very warm and friendly environment. Very enjoyable.


----------



## AutoTrDvr

keelhauled said:


> If you look at the Alaska Railroad menu, you will find that the food service is provided by a subcontractor, which is in general infeasible on Amtrak, and doubly so for the existing long distance trains.



Correct. The Alaska railroad is only a 12hour journey, roughly, Anchorage <---> Fairbanks. Both train sets leave at 8:15a and arrive at their destinations at 8:00p. The "subcontrators" that man the on-board consession stand, and do the in-train tours, etc. are (or they used to be) middle/high school students They switch trains at the half-way point where both train sets meet (which I gather is somewhere south of Hurricane Gulch but north of Talkeetna. So each OBS crew works a 12hour day but gets to go home each night. Not sure if the Engineers/conductors follow the same pattern or if they camp out there before heading back. So yes, probably the idea of a full meal service would not fare well on the regular Alaska RR service. Now, maybe on the Holland-America cruise trans that piggy back the Alaska RR train, but....


----------



## crescent-zephyr

AutoTrDvr said:


> The "subcontrators" that man the on-board consession stand, and do the in-train tours, etc. are (or they used to be) middle/high school students



That must be a “used to be” - current job site says food service employees must be 21 years or older. 

There is a listing for “lead chef” but I can’t tell if it’s an actual chef that rides each train, or more like a chef that spot rides the trains to make sure food is being prepared / plated correctly.


----------



## AutoTrDvr

crescent-zephyr said:


> That must be a “used to be” - current job site says food service employees must be 21 years or older.
> 
> There is a listing for “lead chef” but I can’t tell if it’s an actual chef that rides each train, or more like a chef that spot rides the trains to make sure food is being prepared / plated correctly.



Quite possible, as this was 1999 when I last took the train, just before they got MAC-70s. It also appears that they have dropped a lot of stops along the way as well, especially north of Denali Natl. Park. At least on the Denali Star service.


----------



## lordsigma

Another day with no announcement from Amtrak. Are they only going to give Oct 1 ticket holders 30 days notice?


----------



## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> Another day with no announcement from Amtrak. Are they only going to give Oct 1 ticket holders 30 days notice?


Amtrak most likely considers it just a menu change so it doesn't feel obligated to give any notice. Besides Amtrak has indicated that it will be "higher quality meals" so Amtrak probably wants to provide its sleeping car passengers with a pleasant surprise at no extra cost.


----------



## chrsjrcj

And if you’re in coach you’re SOL.


----------



## ScouseAndy

The website is still promising dining for coach class passengers on long distance trains. I'd be mighty peeved if I was travelling post Oct 1st in coach and couldn't get a full meal rather than the microwave rubbish on offer in the cafe.


----------



## Rasputin

ScouseAndy said:


> The website is still promising dining for coach class passengers on long distance trains. I'd be mighty peeved if I was travelling post Oct 1st in coach and couldn't get a full meal rather than the microwave rubbish on offer in the cafe.


On the eastern trains, prepare to be peeved.


----------



## jiml

Seaboard92 said:


> The one time I’ve been on the Canadian most of the people I was with were Canadians and not tourists. One was a family going to pick up a new car from Tennessee taking the train from Unity, SK to Toronto. Some college students, other various rural travel. The only tourists I remember were in Prestige, and one Australian Father-Daughter.


The Canadian and the Ocean are far less "tourist trains" outside peak season. Most Canadians simply can't afford the inflated prices during the summer. I can fly in Business Class to Vancouver for a whole lot less than even the most basic sleeper accommodation on the Canadian. Off-peak and shoulder seasons are a much better deal. We're heading to Halifax on the Ocean in November only because of a huge discount during a VIA off-peak seat sale. Halifax is a wonderful place to visit in the summer, but if the need arose it's much cheaper to fly than take the train.

If you're spending US dollars you won't notice the summer "sticker shock" as much, but the difference between seasons is substantial.


----------



## me_little_me

Rasputin said:


> Amtrak most likely considers it just a menu change so it doesn't feel obligated to give any notice. Besides Amtrak has indicated that it will be "higher quality meals" so Amtrak probably wants to provide its sleeping car passengers with a pleasant surprise at no extra cost.


I'm in a sleeper on the Crescent on Oct 1 & 2 so I guess I'll be "pleasantly" surprised. Or is that peasantly surprised? Or pestilencely surprised?


----------



## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> I'm in a sleeper on the Crescent on Oct 1 & 2 so I guess I'll be "pleasantly" surprised. Or is that peasantly surprised? Or pestilencely surprised?



We shall see. Hopefully it will be an improvement over the LSL/CL. If they made the entrees decent and ditched the boxes/waste and went to a more traditional presentation with plates and silverware that would make it tolerable along with maybe pre selecting the entree to help with stocking.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> We shall see. Hopefully it will be an improvement over the LSL/CL. If they made the entrees decent and ditched the boxes/waste and went to a more traditional presentation with plates and silverware that would make it tolerable along with maybe pre selecting the entree to help with stocking.



Like how the airlines do it?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

chrsjrcj said:


> And if you’re in coach you’re SOL.



Those in coach have to pay extra for these meals in the first place. They're technically not losing anything except the opportunity to purchase "better" meals than the cafe menu (and will probably be overpriced just like those $25 Amtrak steaks).


----------



## Rasputin

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Those in coach have to pay extra for these meals in the first place. They're technically not losing anything except the opportunity to purchase "better" meals than the cafe menu (and will probably be overpriced just like those $25 Amtrak steaks).


That's right. Coach passengers, be happy! Enjoy your pizza.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Like how the airlines do it?



Sure. If they are going to emulate the airlines they should look to the ones that do it better for ideas.


----------



## Palmetto

Who puts out the Acela First meals, and can that also be done at end points throughout the system?


----------



## lordsigma

Palmetto said:


> Who puts out the Acela First meals, and can that also be done at end points throughout the system?



That’s what I always say! If they did an Acela first class like service on these contemporary diners I could live with it.


----------



## bretton88

I suspect that existing contracts are a big reason they can't do the Acela meals across the system. Does the NEC use Aramark as well?


----------



## OBS

bretton88 said:


> I suspect that existing contracts are a big reason they can't do the Acela meals across the system. Does the NEC use Aramark as well?


The NEC does use Aramark. The Acela FC meals are made in airport catering kitchens, no reason it can't be done in any major airport Aramark kitchen...


----------



## Winecliff Station

neroden said:


> Even Amtrak admits that the cafe cars as a group are profitable, and that most of them are profitable individually.
> 
> They're profitable.
> 
> The big problem, as for all restaurants, is *quantity*. The cafe cars are, mostly, managing sufficient turnover -- particularly on the routes with longer travel times. The Downeaster is a bit too short; doesn't cross mealtimes for enough people. The NY-Albany "short runs" might be too short too, but nobody's checked in years, so I'm betting they'd be profitable -- there's a shortage of cafe cars though, so I suspect Amtrak won't assign a cafe unless the state demands it or buys its own car.
> 
> The dining cars aren't managing sufficient turnover -- as ThirdRail points out, they used to be operating continuously all day long and filling all their tables. For various reasons ranging from shorter consists to understaffing, they're not doing that now. Frankly on routes with lower demand and more price-sensitive coach customers like the Texas Eagle, they could probably never do that.
> 
> On the Lake Shore Limited, with proper dining cars, they could have had much higher turnover, if they'd advertised properly to coach customers.
> 
> 
> Stupidity.



I can't speak to all of the examples, but I can confirm along the lines of what you said that the NY-Albany removal of the cafe cars had nothing to do with profitability.....those trains that left NY during rush hour, particularly the 4:40 and 5:37, had lines of people ordering drinks and snacks that extended past the end of the cafe car. They were basically happy hour trains. What's worse is no coffee on the morning commute....I board in Rhinecliff at 5:55am and would be thrilled if they'd just have the coffee maker on. I've even jokingly offered to donate a Keurig.


----------



## bretton88

OBS said:


> The NEC does use Aramark. The Acela FC meals are made in airport catering kitchens, no reason it can't be done in any major airport Aramark kitchen...


Well if they're the same contract, then I don't see why amtrak can't use similar for their LD trains.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Here’s an example of American Airlines Domestic First Class meal. I can’t say personally if it’s better than the current Amtrak box meals, but I know the Amtrak dining car meals are better, in my opinion.


----------



## jis

What? No dessert? American really has some catching up to do.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> What? No dessert? American really has some catching up to do.



Warm cookies came later. And warm bread came in a basket after the photo was taken.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Warm cookies came later. And warm bread came in a basket after the photo was taken.


Oh no, I am talking of actual dessert, usually a wedge of cheesecake or some such. The warm cookies come later anyway in addition to that, at least on United.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Yeah, AA really needs to catch up with all those plated multi-course snack boxes on UA's domestic regional jets.


----------



## velotrain

This coach passenger will just bring his own food and beverage rather than pay high prices for Amtrak "food" of any sort.


----------



## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> Yeah, AA really needs to catch up with all those plated multi-course snack boxes on UA's domestic regional jets.


I did not realize they serve anything on those RJs. Do they? Actually I have not set foot on a Regional Jet in quite a while since none of my usual travels involves one.

I was domestic first class on UA mainline flights longer than 2 hours. I should have made it clear I suppose.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Delta first class just gave me a cup of melting sorbet. So I thought the warm cookie was pretty classy!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> I did not realize they serve anything on those RJs. Do they? Actually I have not set foot on a Regional Jet in quite a while since none of my usual travels involves one. I was domestic first class on UA mainline flights longer than 2 hours. I should have made it clear I suppose.


Yeah, they serve pantry snacks. No different than AA and DL. The majority of US domestic flights are on regional jets, which is why arguing one airline's domestic meal service over another doesn't mean that much to most US travelers regardless of cabin. I guess it's still a factor on coast-to-coast and hub-to-hub flights though.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s an example of American Airlines Domestic First Class meal. I can’t say personally if it’s better than the current Amtrak box meals, but I know the Amtrak dining car meals are better, in my opinion.


The twice-baked potato pictured is actually pretty good when I've had it.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> Oh no, I am talking of actual dessert, usually a wedge of cheesecake or some such. The warm cookies come later anyway in addition to that, at least on United.


Has to do with length of flight and time of day on AA. The empty plate pictured is for the hot pretzel roll and dessert is served separately. Lunchtime flights under 3 hours usually get the warm cookies, longer usually something a bit better. Dinner flights under 3 hours get a proper dessert, with longer usually hot fudge or "turtle" sundaes and cookies before arrival. In June CLT-SFO lunchtime yielded cocktails with hot nuts, separate appetizer course with the salad, entrée arrived separately with the aforementioned pretzel buns and dessert was sundaes or cheese plate. Cookies were served about an hour before arrival.


----------



## PRR 60

Devil's Advocate said:


> Yeah, they serve pantry snacks. No different than AA and DL. The majority of US domestic flights are on regional jets, which is why arguing one airline's domestic meal service over another doesn't mean that much to most US travelers regardless of cabin. I guess it's still a factor on coast-to-coast and hub-to-hub flights though.


I think this is a reasonably typical F meal in a regional - AA (Mesa) Bismarck ND to DFW in a CRJ9 last month. A little over 900 miles, depart at 5pm. The RJ galley's don't have warming ovens. It was OK. With only an hour to connect at DFW between B and C, it saved getting a grab and go.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> I did not realize they serve anything on those RJs. Do they? Actually I have not set foot on a Regional Jet in quite a while since none of my usual travels involves one.
> 
> I was domestic first class on UA mainline flights longer than 2 hours. I should have made it clear I suppose.


Most RJ's have no ovens, so the best you're going to do is an entrée salad or similar. Unfortunately, all North American carriers are using them for longer and longer flights. UA flies a regional jet from Toronto to Houston - a 3.5 hour flight.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> The twice-baked potato pictured is actually pretty good when I've had it.



Agreed. I thought the whole meal was good... a step above Delta. But again a step down from my meals on Amtrak full service diners. 

Also.. we did have the hot nuts with cocktails before the meal. It was Dallas to Ontario so not a super long flight. Again.. i thought the warm cookies were a pretty classy dessert... now I want that ice cream!!! ha.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Agreed. I thought the whole meal was good... a step above Delta. But again a step down from my meals on Amtrak full service diners.
> 
> Also.. we did have the hot nuts with cocktails before the meal. It was Dallas to Ontario so not a super long flight. Again.. i thought the warm cookies were a pretty classy dessert... now I want that ice cream!!! ha.


Not to drag this too far off-topic, but we have done that route frequently. We used to spend a week every February in Palm Springs and YYZ-DFW-ONT was often cheaper than flying direct to PSP, especially when car rental was factored in. The total saving could be significant for the minor inconvenience of a one-hour drive. Of course I also enjoyed the drive along I-10 with the never-ending UP parade adjacent to the highway.


----------



## jiml

This reminds me that UA also flies a regional jet from Palm Springs, California to Chicago. It was a long flight and the only hot food in First Class was in the lounge in Chicago. Airlines can be as inconsistent as Amtrak.


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## Devil's Advocate

PRR 60 said:


> I think this is a reasonably typical F meal in a regional - AA (Mesa) Bismarck ND to DFW in a CRJ9 last month. A little over 900 miles, depart at 5pm. The RJ galley's don't have warming ovens. It was OK. With only an hour to connect at DFW between B and C, it saved getting a grab and go.View attachment 14913


I honestly don't have a problem with the lack of meals on _most_ domestic flights, and even if I did I can usually pickup something at the airport. What does surprise me is that AA no longer serves a hot meal in coach on 8-hour Hawaiian flights. That's long enough for a real meal IMO.


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## me_little_me

So,to get back on topic, Amtrak has still not made a formal announcement about it? Crescent coach passengers being able to purchase a nice breakfast in Charlottesville will be sadly disappointed and sleeper passengers going southbound will find out the hard way that the steak dinner they expected to get is no more.


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## railiner

I am truly sorry to see the full service diner going away. I am glad I experienced the Crescent in November, and the Silver Meteor, last month.
And, I look forward to the CZ in January. 
I would really have to reconsider taking any more long distance trains, if that experience was no longer available.

As for the coach passenger's...I can't understand why they won't permit them to purchase the new 'contemporary' meals...is it possible that they lose money providing even that 'amenity' to sleeper passenger's? I can't see how....
Even when I traveled overnite in coach, I would have all my meals in the diner for the experience...


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## JP1822

I think it is a capacity issue - or at least right now. How many box meals can they fit in a Viewliner II Kitchen area - that was not designed for box meals? Even after taking out what they could in the kitchens. Superliner Diners and Cross Country Cafes have more room than single level Viewliner Diner, but they’ve got to standardize it across various trains. 

Amtrak has created value out of the “sleeper lounge” concept - an exclusive lounge and place that sleeping car passengers can take in the scenery and have a special lounge to themselves, especially with a double row of windows with the Viewliner Diner. Amtrak has made the car available 24 hours a day basically, where before it was just accessible at meal times.


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## railiner

You may have a point there, but I sure don't see it that way. The 'value' of a real diner, is to cook and serve good food in a pleasant atmosphere.
The new concept has destroyed that.


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## Rasputin

railiner said:


> I am truly sorry to see the full service diner going away. I am glad I experienced the Crescent in November, and the Silver Meteor, last month.
> And, I look forward to the CZ in January.
> I would really have to reconsider taking any more long distance trains, if that experience was no longer available.



I know what you mean. We are considering a trip from Tucson to New Orleans next year on the Sunset. After a stopover of several days in New Orleans, we would ordinarily be taking the Crescent to DC but this time we will very likely fly the New Orleans to DC leg. The scenery on the Crescent is pleasant but not spectacular and with no dining car the value of the train is significantly reduced. If the Sunset loses its dining car we may re-think the whole trip. 

Same goes with our trip next May from Boston to Colorado. We will go west on the Lake Shore and the CZ but fly back from Denver. I wouldn't mind the CZ from Denver to Chicago but the eastbound Lake Shore is no longer a reliable option so I think we will avoid it whenever we can.


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## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> So,to get back on topic, Amtrak has still not made a formal announcement about it? Crescent coach passengers being able to purchase a nice breakfast in Charlottesville will be sadly disappointed and sleeper passengers going southbound will find out the hard way that the steak dinner they expected to get is no more.


Correct. Still no official announcement anywhere. We shall see over the next's week if they are going to give people a months notice.


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## railiner

lordsigma said:


> Correct. Still no official announcement anywhere. We shall see over the next's week if they are going to give people a months notice.


Is there a possibility that they will maintain the present level of service, longer?


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## pennyk

railiner said:


> Is there a possibility that they will maintain the present level of service, longer?


I think it is highly unlikely.


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## cocojacoby

JP1822 said:


> I think it is a capacity issue



Passenger wise too. The beautiful new Viewliner diners are not a traditional 48 passenger diner layout. Due to an enormous waste of space for handicapped assessibility, the car looks like it has only 42 seats in some videos I have seen on Youtube. Take away the usual "setup" table and the usual "crew" table to hold all their personal stuff and you may be talking only 36 seats!

That's not a very efficient use of a dining car.


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## railiner

cocojacoby said:


> Passenger wise too. The beautiful new Viewliner diners are not a traditional 48 passenger diner layout. Due to an enormous waste of space for handicapped assessibility, the car looks like it has only 42 seats in some videos I have seen on Youtube. Take away the usual "setup" table and the usual "crew" table to hold all their personal stuff and you may be talking only 36 seats!
> 
> That's not a very efficient use of a dining car.



Agreed!

If you think that is '"inefficient", think back about the Fred Harvey diner's on the Santa Fe...many only had 36 seats, arranged in tables of two and four, and were staffed by a steward, six waiters, a chef, asst. chef, 3rd chef, dishwasher. etc.


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## JP1822

railiner said:


> You may have a point there, but I sure don't see it that way. The 'value' of a real diner, is to cook and serve good food in a pleasant atmosphere.
> The new concept has destroyed that.



Don’t get me wrong, I certainly agree with you on the basis and premise of a real railroad diner car - full service meals etc. as the train races to its destination. Unfortunately that current model just won’t fly. Anderson is after the long distance trains and their cost output.


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## AmtrakBlue

JP1822 said:


> Don’t get me wrong, I certainly agree with you on the basis and premise of a real railroad diner car - full service meals etc. as the train races to its destination. Unfortunately that current model just won’t fly. Anderson is after the long distance trains and their cost output.



Congress is after the long distance trains and their cost output. Anderson is following the mandate that Amtrak was given, aka doing his job.


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## Rasputin

JP1822 said:


> Unfortunately that current model just won’t fly. Anderson is after the long distance trains and their cost output.



I think you are right. The current model won't fly under Anderson, but I probably will.


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## Devil's Advocate

AmtrakBlue said:


> Congress is after the long distance trains and their cost output. Anderson is following the mandate that Amtrak was given, aka doing his job.


More recently it appears that Congress is the party trying to save Amtrak's LD network from its own board. Anderson could still fulfill his job duties by pushing back and building support against these rules, it's not like Mica is in a position to actively defend his prior attacks, but instead Anderson has chosen to dump more fuel on the fire by ignoring concerned supporters and activists while pushing for permanent bustitutions.


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## jis

The rules came from FAST 2015. Congress has not done anything to rescind any language that was adopted in the FAST Act. At best Congress is pussyfooting around trying to save a few local turfs while avoiding addressing the problem at large. 

Anderson of course has some agenda of his own like all CEOs do, and I don't agree with some significant parts of his agenda, while I do agree with some other parts. But he has the language adopted by Congress and now in 49 CFR more on his side than the Congressional majority apparently even. But still Congress does not seem to be anxious enough to want want to fix that, and is apparently willing to sit out the rest of the lifetime of FAST 2015.

Given the earliest we will know for sure where Congress wants to go with all this is when they publish drafts of the proposed language in the new Authorization Bill for Surface Transportation. I have heard rumors that there are drafts floating around in the Commerce Committee which they are unwilling to share with the likes of RPA or anyone else outside the Committee staff except for whoever, if any, outsider they have chosen to work with. No one knows beyond those directly involved as to who exactly is penning such language at present. I am sure as soon as drafts become available we will know about it.

And meanwhile I suspect the Board and Anderson will continue to do whatever it is that they are doing.


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## tonys96

Look back through the threads. 
When Amtrak started cutting "amenities" like real plates and silverware, the apologists here called those of us who were alarmed, whiners who wanted flowers on the tables. All we said is this was the tip of a slippery slope. 
But we were told how easy it was to use plastic plates and utensils, and again _those flowers._ Look back. It is there in the threads.
Now, after losing the PPCs, wine tastings, amentity kits, etc., and now the full service diners, it looks like that slope was, indeed, slippery.
And we have not reached the bottom yet. There us still more slope left. Lots more.


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## BBoy

Spot on tonys96.


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## Asher

tonys96 said:


> Look back through the threads.
> When Amtrak started cutting "amenities" like real plates and silverware, the apologists here called those of us who were alarmed, whiners who wanted flowers on the tables. All we said is this was the tip of a slippery slope.
> But we were told how easy it was to use plastic plates and utensils, and again _those flowers._ Look back. It is there in the threads.
> Now, after losing the PPCs, wine tastings, amentity kits, etc., and now the full service diners, it looks like that slope was, indeed, slippery.
> And we have not reached the bottom yet. There us still more slope left. Lots more.


Slippery slope, sounds more like falling off a cliff.


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## junebug

So coach passengers won't be able to get meals in the dining cars? What's a contemporary meal? I have to agree that first class on an airline is the same price as a sleeper car, but I love the experience of meeting people and seeing what the country looks like. I usually don't get a sleeper. So no meals on a two day trip for me?


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## pennyk

junebug said:


> So coach passengers won't be able to get meals in the dining cars? What's a contemporary meal? I have to agree that first class on an airline is the same price as a sleeper car, but I love the experience of meeting people and seeing what the country looks like. I usually don't get a sleeper. So no meals on a two day trip for me?


As it stands now, the contemporary meals will be only available to sleeper passengers. The affected trains are generally those east of the Mississippi. The cafe car will be available to coach passengers.
Contemporary meals are basically boxed meals.


----------



## Winecliff Station

tonys96 said:


> Look back through the threads.
> When Amtrak started cutting "amenities" like real plates and silverware, the apologists here called those of us who were alarmed, whiners who wanted flowers on the tables. All we said is this was the tip of a slippery slope.
> But we were told how easy it was to use plastic plates and utensils, and again _those flowers._ Look back. It is there in the threads.
> Now, after losing the PPCs, wine tastings, amentity kits, etc., and now the full service diners, it looks like that slope was, indeed, slippery.
> And we have not reached the bottom yet. There us still more slope left. Lots more.



I suppose the most they could do is make them all purchase-only meal service, like the Star. Is there more slope beyond that?


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## Just-Thinking-51

Be nice if they just out source the whole thing. Here this dinner and some crew space. Amtrak maintains the railcars, all OBS, and stock is the contractor problem.


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## Qapla

One of the problems/objection to outsourcing or renting the diner space to an outside company is, anytime you replace a union employee (Amtrak employee) with a non-union employee (ones working for the contract bid win) there is a lot of complaints, criticism negative talk ...

I'm not taking sides either way - just saying what I have seen


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## ScouseAndy

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Be nice if they just out source the whole thing. Here this dinner and some crew space. Amtrak maintains the railcars, all OBS, and stock is the contractor problem.


you mean like what happens in most other countries across the world? In some parts of the world they go even further and the outsource company owns the restaurant car and pay the train company for the the car to be included on the consist


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## crescent-zephyr

ScouseAndy said:


> you mean like what happens in most other countries across the world? In some parts of the world they go even further and the outsource company owns the restaurant car and pay the train company for the the car to be included on the consist



Where does this happen?


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## Just-Thinking-51

> In some parts of the world they go even further and the outsource company owns the restaurant car and pay the train company for the the car to be included on the consist



I don’t think this is happening. The railroad own the cars, and maintaining them. While contractor provides staff and stock. That the current model. If you require the outsider to provide the railcar, and maintain them the cost fact will be to great.


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## Steve4031

Amtrak just eliminated many Union Jobs with this contemporary diner mess. One of my SCAs on my CZ trip in early August recognized me from his days on the LSL. He stated the Union was unable to do much to protect these employees. Either they move on to other spots in the system and bump less senior employees or retire.


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## crescent-zephyr

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The railroad own the cars, and maintaining them. While contractor provides staff and stock. That the current model.



Which is the current model for the Downeaster as well.

The question is... what company wants to staff and stock an Amtrak train? And since said company would not want to operate at a loss... what is the gain for Amtrak?


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## Rasputin

Wasn't outsourcing of café service to Subway tried in New York state a few years back and it failed miserably due to union resistance.


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## crescent-zephyr

Rasputin said:


> Wasn't outsourcing of café service to Subway tried in New York state a few years back and it failed miserably due to union resistance.



The Downeaster is an outsourced cafe on an Amtrak train. It can be done. That is a fact. 

Now outsorcing anything long distance is a different ball game with a lot more complications. 

Again.... if you are losing money either way.... what’s the benefit?


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## me_little_me

Steve4031 said:


> Amtrak just eliminated many Union Jobs with this contemporary diner mess. One of my SCAs on my CZ trip in early August recognized me from his days on the LSL. He stated the Union was unable to do much to protect these employees. Either they move on to other spots in the system and bump less senior employees or retire.


Eliminating jobs is likely allowed by the contract but replacing them with outside contractors is likely not.


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## Palmetto

Rasputin said:


> Wasn't outsourcing of café service to Subway tried in New York state a few years back and it failed miserably due to union resistance.



Yes.


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## PVD

So the workers get substandard wages and benefits, the contractor takes the difference as their profit, and Amtrak saves little or nothing. Remember, despite being outsourced, the Downeaster food service loses money. The difference is, the loss is acceptable as part of the business plan for that service.


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## Just-Thinking-51

> The question is... what company wants to staff and stock an Amtrak train? And since said company would not want to operate at a loss... what is the gain for Amtrak?



Newrest was activity seek business with Amtrak.

http://www.newrest.eu/en/who-we-work-for/railway-companies/

Fact not fiction. Not sure the type of business but the company was talking to Amtrak.


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## Qapla

I guess it all depends on your definition of "substandard wages".

If some brand name fast food place contracted for the car and paid it's employees $1 more than their usual wage in a brick-and-mortar store (it may be less than Amtrak would have paid their employees on that train car) the fast food employees would not think they were getting substandard wages.

Now, whether that fast food place could actually make money running a train store - that is a whole different question ...


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## PVD

The fact that American workers are increasingly willing to accept lower and lower standards to survive isn't something we should be proud of as a country, or consider a positive in any way. Having both parents working, or people working 2 jobs has helped to destroy family life in this country with the resulting negative fallout. Maybe instead of telling ourselves how great we are we should start to be great. It is harder and harder to retire with a decent standard of living because pensions have been disappearing, and the fact that we still fight over healthcare for people who work, worked until retirement or disability, or those who are still in school or not able to work puts us well behind much of the rest of the industrialized world.


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## Maverickstation

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Downeaster is an outsourced cafe on an Amtrak train. It can be done. That is a fact.
> 
> Now outsorcing anything long distance is a different ball game with a lot more complications.
> 
> Again.... if you are losing money either way.... what’s the benefit?



No, The Downeaster is a Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority (NNEPRA) train service.
Amtrak happens to be the company they contract with to run the train.

The schedules, fares, policies, AND cafe car caterer are all controlled by NNEPRA.

Ken


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## Twinkletoes

Over the past few weeks I have been reading the discussion about the cutbacks in dining service. I had a taste of “contemporary” dining last summer on the Lake Shore Limited and found it woefully lacking. This past May, I experienced the upgraded version and found it passable, but nothing to rave about. I just returned from a Crescent trip in sleepers: August 18-19 (Train 19) and August 31-Sept 1 (Train 20)-Meridian to NY City. I had a chance eat 2 breakfasts, 2 lunches, and 2 dinners. At all meals both sleeper and coach used the diner. Nothing beats sitting down to a warm meal even if the plates are plastic. The cutlery is still metal and the napkins are cloth. The grits are still fantastic. The green beans are outstanding. They were cooked the old fashioned southern way and everybody who had them commented on how good they were (including two folks from Vermont). The dinner crab cake (which I ordered without the steak) was very good, and I understand people who got the mussels at lunch truly enjoyed them.

I remember the old days with dedicated cooks, waiters, and a steward for staff with crockery plates, lined table cloths, and real flowers as amenities. There were also lines of people waiting to eat at the coach and the sleeper ends of the car. Nevertheless, I think that in addition to labor and other costs, it’s also hard to compete with how we eat today. Indeed we tend to eat continuously—snacking and grazing all day. We boomers remember structured, set mealtimes at home, school (elementary, high school and college), and work. We have pronounced food preferences that we expect restaurants to provide—vegan, vegetarian, gluten free, low fat/low calorie, sweeteners (raw sugar, stevia). Discussions with other sleeper passengers reveal that people commonly bring supplemental foods that they prefer; e.g., cold cereal, pastries, and granolas or sandwiches. I’ve seen people enter the dining car and leave after interrogating the server about food content. There are no simple answers.


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## crescent-zephyr

Maverickstation said:


> No, The Downeaster is a Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority (NNEPRA) train service.
> Amtrak happens to be the company they contract with to run the train.
> 
> The schedules, fares, policies, AND cafe car caterer are all controlled by NNEPRA.
> 
> Ken



True. It’s still a unique arrangement. I guess it’s the same as Indiana paying Iowa Pacific for the service on the Hoosier State.


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## Rasputin

For those who are in favor of outsourcing café and dining car service I think it would be instructive to study the New York attempt at this and see what went wrong. I can't recall what year this was tried. My recollection is that there was a lot of planning done to have Subway operate the café car service on some trains but it fizzled out miserably only a couple days after it went into effect. I think it proved to be very difficult in that environment to have union and non-union employees working on the same train. Maybe someone has further details about this attempt.


----------



## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> For those who are in favor of outsourcing café and dining car service I think it would be instructive to study the New York attempt at this and see what went wrong. I can't recall what year this was tried. My recollection is that there was a lot of planning done to have Subway operate the café car service on some trains but it fizzled out miserably only a couple days after it went into effect. I think it proved to be very difficult in that environment to have union and non-union employees working on the same train. Maybe someone has further details about this attempt.


Amtrak is studying/considering the possibility of outsourcing some or all of F&B through some RFPs that were done last year so I wouldn't discount the possibility yet - and they were looking at food and beverage for the entire system not just the long distance trains.


----------



## crescent2

Wow, I've been away awhile and this is what I come back to see--more death by a thousand cuts, and to my beloved Crescent, not that I'm shocked by it.

Eating in the dining car was one of the more pleasant aspects of train travel for several reasons. I hate to see that experience downgraded on trains like the Crescent. (I also hate to see part of the money spent on the new dining cars wasted, but that's history at this point. Still a shame and a very inefficient use of scarce funds.) This does indeed sound like a significant downgrade for sleeper passengers. 

But it's even worse for coach passengers, who will no longer even have access to the nice new dining car, nor to the "contemporary" meals. The cafe food just doesn't cut it. 

I've taken a good many sleeper trips on several LD trains, but most of my Amtrak travel is now in coach; day trips south of Atlanta to New Orleans and back. My friends and I always eat in the dining car and greatly enjoy the experience. I have a feeling that on our next trip to NOL I may be outvoted on whether to take Amtrak or fly. My friends have mostly enjoyed traveling on Amtrak but aren't as big railfans as I am, although one of them does hate to fly even on a short hop. Guess we'll see. Cafe food only, with no access to the dining car at all, may prove to the camel's straw for our little group.

While sleeper travel might perhaps be seen as "land-cruise" travel by some people (although I'd disagree about most routes), coach travel certainly isn't in that category and appears to be utilized by all economic groups. More concern should be shown for the needs of coach passengers. The eastern long distance train routes are certainly long enough that satisfactory food service is a real need. It can't be logically compared to domestic air travel because of trip duration times.

It does seem (imho) that Anderson isn't very fond of the eastern LD trains in general. Of course the political mandate about food service was issued in 2015 by Congress. One would hope the current Congress would be a little more friendly but it appears not. IIRC Amtrak's subsidy did receive an increase two or three years ago but unfortunately the 2015 congressional mandate re food service profitability still stands. 

I'm not usually a pessimistic person but I'm certainly not optimistic about the ultimate fate of the eastern LD trains under the current Amtrak leadership, especially if the 2015 congressional mandate isn't changed. I applaud those who've recently written their representatives and senators. I have in the past but not recently. (Regardless, I'm whining a little!) I love the long distance trains, and I don't see these changes as positive ones for passengers, employees, or the trains' long term sustainability.


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## OBS

Rasputin said:


> For those who are in favor of outsourcing café and dining car service I think it would be instructive to study the New York attempt at this and see what went wrong. I can't recall what year this was tried. My recollection is that there was a lot of planning done to have Subway operate the café car service on some trains but it fizzled out miserably only a couple days after it went into effect. I think it proved to be very difficult in that environment to have union and non-union employees working on the same train. Maybe someone has further details about this attempt.


I can't help but think there were a multitude of problems, including the fact they had not obtained a liquor license when it started so no liquor for sale. Also I would guess having to access and stock trains in SSYD yard without proper equipment and facilities would be a herculean task, etc. The whole idea looks great from a corporate office....the reality...not so much...


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## lordsigma

I find it completely unacceptable that they still haven’t announced the changes. They should give sufficient notice for this. The question is are they delaying the change for some reason or are they just going to lay it on people at the last minute.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Rasputin said:


> For those who are in favor of outsourcing café and dining car service I think it would be instructive to study the New York attempt at this and see what went wrong. I can't recall what year this was tried. My recollection is that there was a lot of planning done to have Subway operate the café car service on some trains but it fizzled out miserably only a couple days after it went into effect. I think it proved to be very difficult in that environment to have union and non-union employees working on the same train. Maybe someone has further details about this attempt.



Your recollection is incorrect. There was not much planning, it was very haphazard. This plan failed for the lack of planning, and training.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Outsourcing the food service is several steps. I'm not an expert but here's some of the things that I'm aware of...
1. You need a commercial commissary to store and prep the food. This location would require the rental of the space, cost of utilities, maintenance and service for the refrigeration and ovens, cost of employees to prepare / stock the food, and insurance on the space.

2. You need a way to get the supplies from the commissary to the rail yard on a daily basis. So you need a refrigerated commercial truck, and a driver with a CDL. 

3. You need to staff the train. Qualifications for this job will vary on local laws, but if you are doing any food prep or serving drinks there will likely be some certification required. 

That's the basic steps for a regional train.... if you are talking long distance now.... 

4. You need to provide lodging for the staff at the layover city, and transportation to the lodging. 

All of these steps have costs associated with them. Obviously a company that already exists will already have the commissary and the delivery drivers.... but still that is a lot of costs rolled into food service on a moving train.


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## Rasputin

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Your recollection is incorrect. There was not much planning, it was very haphazard. This plan failed for the lack of planning, and training.


Thanks for that correction. It seems to me that the news sources at the time indicated that the Subway employees all quit after their first trip claiming intimidation by the union employees.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Rasputin said:


> Thanks for that correction. It seems to me that the news sources at the time indicated that the Subway employees all quit after their first trip claiming intimidation by the union employees.



Not sure they quit, but the intimidation part was correct.


----------



## JustOnce

crescent-zephyr said:


> Outsourcing the food service is several steps. I'm not an expert but here's some of the things that I'm aware of...
> 
> That's the basic steps for a regional train.... if you are talking long distance now....
> 
> 4. You need to provide lodging for the staff at the layover city, and transportation to the lodging.
> 
> All of these steps have costs associated with them. Obviously a company that already exists will already have the commissary and the delivery drivers.... but still that is a lot of costs rolled into food service on a moving train.



Also the salaries need to reflect time away from home living out of a bag and the long hours and lack of sleep. If a cafe car is open from 6 AM to 11 PM, then the attendant gets at most 5 hours of sleep. Less if there's clean up and start up.


----------



## Rasputin

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Not sure they quit, but the intimidation part was correct.


According to a friend who follows these things much closer than I do, the Subway café car service lasted ONE day.


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## Just-Thinking-51

> Outsourcing the food service is several steps.



You would be surprised how simple it could be. Visit your local convenience store. See all the fruit bowls, sandwich, salads available. Not made in store. Sure a good store will have a grill we’re you can order things and watch them be made. Most product come via a truck, case ready. Open tote, remove products, place on self. You don’t need a kitchen yourself. A place to stage product before and after is a good idea, but you could live life on the edge, and have Right-in-Time truck delivers to your railcar.

It’s doable, it how things gets done in 2019.



> Also the salaries need to reflect time away from home living out of a bag and the long hours and lack of sleep. If a cafe car is open from 6 AM to 11 PM, then the attendant gets at most 5 hours of sleep. Less if there's clean up and start up.



Or you up-staff so your people can get 10 hours off uninterrupted. Living out of bag is not a big issue for a lot of people. Never figured out a good reason why Amtrak staffs the way they do. (Inventory is why, but it’s not a good reason.)


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## Winecliff Station

If all the solutions are so complicated for the "new and improved" Amtrak to handle, why don't they just give the sleeper car passengers cafe car vouchers instead of contemporary dining? Take the staff member who would be heating and distributing box meals and add them to the cafe car so two are working the counter... this means more selection than the box meals, which for vegetarian passengers is basically one option. I am actually surprised they cut meals for sleeper passengers on the Star instead of keeping the same price and giving vouchers.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> You would be surprised how simple it could be. Visit your local convenience store. See all the fruit bowls, sandwich, salads available. Not made in store. Sure a good store will have a grill we’re you can order things and watch them be made. Most product come via a truck, case ready. Open tote, remove products, place on self. You don’t need a kitchen yourself. A place to stage product before and after is a good idea, but you could live life on the edge, and have Right-in-Time truck delivers to your railcar.
> 
> It’s doable, it how things gets done in 2019.



Yes... they are made in a commercial commissary / prep kitchen. And they are delivered to the convenience store by a refrigerated commercial truck driven by a CDL driver. And the convenience store is staffed by employees that are paid money... if the convenience store does food prep (like a Sheetz) than they also have to follow local health laws which usually include someone on duty be certified for food prep / safe handling. 

So yeah... everything is exactly the same except for the fact that a convenience store doesn't get daily deliveries at an ultra specific time.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Ultra specific deliver time is what I do for a living. (Not ever load, but all loads need to be someplace, at a certain, or range of time.)


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## crescent-zephyr

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Ultra specific deliver time is what I do for a living. (Not ever load, but all loads need to be someplace, at a certain, or range of time.)



I’m not really sure how Amtrak trains get loaded... does the delivery truck go right to the train from the main commissary, or does each yard have a separate commissary and then a local truck delivers to the train?


----------



## Maverickstation

Here is a good read about the Southwest Chief and it's route being safe for now.

I am posting it here as they talk about the importance of the dining car, AND the fact that the Silver Meteor and Crescent loose their Diner
effective October 1.

https://www.latimes.com/travel/la-tr-travel-southwest-chief-train-2019-story.html


----------



## Dakota 400

Thank you for posting this Maverickstation. It's an interesting article.


----------



## me_little_me

Winecliff Station said:


> If all the solutions are so complicated for the "new and improved" Amtrak to handle, why don't they just give the sleeper car passengers cafe car vouchers instead of contemporary dining? Take the staff member who would be heating and distributing box meals and add them to the cafe car so two are working the counter... this means more selection than the box meals, which for vegetarian passengers is basically one option. I am actually surprised they cut meals for sleeper passengers on the Star instead of keeping the same price and giving vouchers.


Yuck!


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

me_little_me said:


> Yuck!



Well the question now is are these "contemporary meals" worth the added expense sleeper passengers pay for them?

February 2020, Philly to Orlando, 1 person

Cheapest Roomette: Star: $340, Meteor: $415

You're paying $65 for a dinner and a breakfast. I don't think the "Amtrak steak" and omelets were worth $65, can anyone with a straight face tell me these new meals are worth $65? Is the food better than what's in the cafe car? Probably. But is it worth the extra expense you pay? You tell me.


----------



## ehbowen

But if the train is late, you might get a free lunch!


----------



## Palmetto

Maverickstation said:


> Here is a good read about the Southwest Chief and it's route being safe for now.
> 
> I am posting it here as they talk about the importance of the dining car, AND the fact that the Silver Meteor and Crescent loose their Diner
> effective October 1.
> 
> https://www.latimes.com/travel/la-tr-travel-southwest-chief-train-2019-story.html



Those trains do not lose their diner. They lose the current sit-down restaurant style service model in the diner. Which leads me to observe: the title of this topic is inaccurate.


----------



## jis

Well, the Diner in any form is definitely getting cut for the Coach passengers in the Contemporary stuff on the Eastern trains.


----------



## Rasputin

Palmetto said:


> Those trains do not lose their diner. They lose the current sit-down restaurant style service model in the diner. Which leads me to observe: the title of this topic is inaccurate.


I think it is more correct to say that the present dining cars are being converted to table cars (maybe even picnic table cars but hopefully without ants) where packaged food can been eaten. They are even being disguised as sleeping car lounge cars even though they are not well suited for lounge cars in the usual sense (i.e. the Pacific Parlour cars).


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

The LA Times article is spot on. The photos and story could have summed up my ride last week from GBB to Fullerton.

The SWC is a perfect example of what Amtrak was founded for. Well patronized from all walks of life. The most efficient schedule of any long distance train providing benefits to small communities along the way. The LA based crews are some of the best on Amtrak.

The dining issue is just a shame. We’re putting the network in danger just to break labor. I met at least five people of various ages who connected from the Capital or Lake shore last week. To a person they said the food was not acceptable and two people said “inedible”. They all said if the SWC gets the “take away” (their words) dining they won’t be traveling on Amtrak anymore. They had very strong feelings and were not rail enthusiasts like the majority of us.

I get the Mica law and concern for being more efficient but Amtrak management is just using it as a crutch for their agenda of dismantling Amtrak. If they truly wanted to find a workable solution they would have tried Acela first class meals on the Capital and Lake Shore. Airline catering on both sides and the routes are not much longer than ultra long haul flights.


----------



## pennyk

I came across a survey posted by several individuals on FaceBook regarding Amtrak food service. I am not sure who is behind the survey. The survey that I completed was posted by someone I know and who works for Amtrak - so I trust it.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...rEABvILbFzsIv9b8g/viewform?platform=hootsuite


----------



## Rail Freak

I believe they're the same.


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> Well, the Diner in any form is definitely getting cut for the Coach passengers in the Contemporary stuff on the Eastern trains.



True, but my point still remains: the equipment itself is not going anywhere.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Palmetto said:


> True, but my point still remains: the equipment itself is not going anywhere.



Both statements are correct. The physical dining car is still on the train. The dining car service is not. 

“More full service diners getting cut”


----------



## me_little_me

Well, it is now less than a month until October 1 (the day of my travel on the Crescent) and still no notification from Amtrak that food service will be changing. So much for 30 days notice - or are they still thinking about how best to stick it to their customers?


----------



## lordsigma

Well here it is folks, this now on Amtrak's website under dining. They are now using two new names to describe dining car services. Contemporary dining is now called flexible dining and the traditional dining car service on the western trains they are calling "traditional dining". They have refreshed the entrees for the flexible dining (all options are now hot) and there is now a lighter kid's choice for a kids meal:

https://www.amtrak.com/onboard/meals-dining/flexible-dining.html


----------



## lordsigma

While it is disappointing to see this come to the Crescent and Meteor...it appears from the picture on that page that they are at least ditching the boxes. The presentation shown in that photo seems far superior to what they've been doing and brings it more in line with the meals on some of the airlines and acela first class..hopefully this is accurate.


----------



## TC_NYC

Well there goes dinner on any train out of NYC. Shame to see this happen to all the coach passengers, I wonder if they will see much of a dropoff in sales on coach tickets and what kind of a hit on revenue they are seeing from no dining car.


----------



## lordsigma

TC_NYC said:


> Well there goes dinner on any train out of NYC. Shame to see this happen to all the coach passengers, I wonder if they will see much of a dropoff in sales on coach tickets and what kind of a hit on revenue they are seeing from no dining car.


I agree - I see the exclusion of coach passengers as the biggest problem with this offering. I think now that they are including the Meteor and Crescent they may see a hit there unless they make some adjustments to allow more lower fares for coach passengers. I don't understand why they couldn't find a way to include coach somehow - they need to add that option and should also add online ordering of meals to help with stocking - they could even REQUIRE coach passengers to order a meal before departure if they want one or only allow them to pick up their meal in the diner, pay for it, and bring it to their seat or the cafe car and restrict the diner seating to sleeper passengers.

Hopefully if they see a drop off they will consider these...again at least they seem to be dropping the boxes and associated waste which to me is a big improvement.


----------



## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> Hopefully if they see a drop off they will consider these...again at least they seem to be dropping the boxes and associated waste which to me is a big improvement.


I don't yet understand how this will be served but I guess we will get some first hand reports soon enough. Is the attendant going to be supplied with large bags of salad which he or she will plate into these trays. Will the attendant get a large container(s) of each entrée which they will heat and plate onto these trays.

I suspect instead that the customer will receive a package of salad and a heated entrée in a box and an empty tray and the customer will be responsible for plating the food onto the tray. So I wonder if the food boxes are really going away or if they will be with us yet.


----------



## jis

My suspicion is that everything will come pre-plated and pre-bowled. For example, the salad will come in the bowl wrapped or covered with plastic cover as it does now. The main meal will come plated to be heated and served just like they do on airplanes. The LSA will just heat and plop them into the tray slots and serve. Just because it is a train does not make serving food in airline style any different. On planes they just do the unpacking of each preplated item, heat arrange them uniformly on a tray and serve. The items that need heating are heated before placement on the tray.


----------



## Palmland

If the picture is any indication, this is a real improvement from the meal in a box approach. It appears they have figured out how to plate a meal. What a concept, maybe a Delta crony whispered in Anderson's ear. Presentation does mean a lot even if the food is mediocre, especially if served with a glass of wine. But, I don't see a lighter sandwich or salad offering. 

I'm ok with these meals not being offered to coach passengers. Again, not much different than first class vs. coach on a plane. Consider the exorbitant sleeper prices as compared to coach. It's nice to have an attractive (with the big windows) and relatively quiet car to enjoy your instant meal. With the carry out option it would seem that tables might go unused. If that is the case, I'd like to see a couple removed and replaced with comfortable seating so that it is truly a lounge car. We certainly enjoyed that option a few years ago in the lounge section of the CCC on the CONO. Best Bloody Mary my wife and I've had in a long time.


----------



## Rasputin

jis said:


> My suspicion is that everything will come pre-plated and pre-bowled. For example, the salad will come in the bowl wrapped or covered with plastic cover as it does now. The main meal will come plated to be heated and served just like they do on airplanes. The LSA will just heat and plop them into the tray slots and serve. Just because it is a train does not make serving food in airline style any different. On planes they just do the unpacking of each preplated item, heat arrange them uniformly on a tray and serve. The items that need heating are heated before placement on the tray.



Now that I look closer at the photo, I think you are correct.


----------



## chrsjrcj

It looks like they changed the breakfast sandwich, which kind of sucks because I actually liked the breakfast sandwiches that were offered.


----------



## lordsigma

chrsjrcj said:


> It looks like they changed the breakfast sandwich, which kind of sucks because I actually liked the breakfast sandwiches that were offered.


I wonder if it will be a Jimmy Dean muffin sandwich like the ones they have in the café car - those are sausage egg and cheese on a muffin - I hate to admit it but I actually kind of like those. I like sausage better than ham on a breakfast sandwich but I liked the idea of the brioche roll they were using before..now a muffin.


----------



## Rasputin

I don't see any date associated with the flexible dining information. Has it arrived already?


----------



## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> I don't see any date associated with the flexible dining information. Has it arrived already?


There is not yet an official announcement up - just this information on the menus. But all previous information point to October 1st as the start date.


----------



## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> There is not yet an official announcement up - just this information on the menus. But all previous information point to October 1st as the start date.


Oh No! Those poor passengers boarding the southbound Crescent in DC tonight will be so disappointed that they can't have flexible dining. They will be relegated to having a steak.


----------



## chrsjrcj

This article suggests that contemporary dining will be coming to the Star next year:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...in-details-upgraded-sleeping-cars/2302820001/


----------



## chrsjrcj

Pretty good breakdown in this week's RPA Hotline: https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/hotline/hotline-1134/


> Amtrak is getting rid of the box, the bag and the “takeout Chinese” presentation in favor of a meal-specific tray
> 
> 
> Amtrak is going to restore the ability of Coach passengers to buy food from the diner, implementing an order-ahead system so that passengers have the option to make selections at booking
> 
> 
> Amtrak is introducing FOUR additional hot options for a total of five available
> 
> 
> Amtrak is introducing two meat-and-egg breakfast sandwiches: a sausage-egg-cheese English Muffin and a ham-egg-cheese on a ciabatta roll
> 
> 
> Amtrak is using a combination of processes and technology to ensure that there is enough food on board for service, and enough variety so that passengers’ first choice is more likely to be available



Based off that 4th bullet point, lordsigma and I may both be happy.


----------



## bretton88

chrsjrcj said:


> Pretty good breakdown in this week's RPA Hotline: https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/hotline/hotline-1134/
> 
> 
> Based off that 4th bullet point, lordsigma and I may both be happy.


The biggest news to me is that Amtrak is going to make the meals available to coach passengers with an online ordering system. I'll be curious to see what the pricing and implementation is.


----------



## NSC1109

bretton88 said:


> The biggest news to me is that Amtrak is going to make the meals available to coach passengers with an online ordering system. I'll be curious to see what the pricing and implementation is.



It’s similar to a system we use a Delta for international flights. Pax have the opportunity to select their meal before the flight. It’s a great way to cut down on waste and streamline logistics for catering. I imagine it might save Amtrak some money too.


----------



## lordsigma

It is good to hear the star may not have to be called the starvation anymore.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

lordsigma said:


> It is good to hear the star may not have to be called the starvation anymore.



But there goes the cheap sleeper rooms if they include meals with them again.


----------



## bretton88

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> But there goes the cheap sleeper rooms if they include meals with them again.


That is probable, but what we're seeing is Amtrak is deciding to standardize the product across the eastern trains. Hopefully this means passengers will start to know what to expect and similar experiences across the system. It is also important to note that Amtrak seems to be standardizing the "traditional" experience in the western system. I'll be curious to see what the new menu that they promise in 2020 will be like. The end goal appears to be to have the same amenities across the board for sleeper passengers and the same dining experience depending on which half of the system you are on. Now if Amtrak could only figure out business class, lol.


----------



## Steve4031

The pasta and meatballs was classified as a kids meal on Amtrak’s website. It would be nice if they had one or two sandwich options for the lunch and dinner options. A cheeseburger would be great. I wouldn’t mind mac in cheese either. 

At least their is an effort to improve. 

If coach passengers could preorder, why not sleeper pax. This could help with stocking.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Steve4031 said:


> At least their is an effort to improve.
> 
> If coach passengers could preorder, why not sleeper pax. This could help with stocking.




One thinks the preorder will be included Sleeper passengers.

Effort falls short with the special diet needs.

The preorder system will be interesting to incorporated with the DOS based computers.


----------



## lordsigma

The letter to RPA indicates that sleeper passengers will have the option to pre select before departure - coach passengers it appears will be REQUIRED to purchase the meals in advance.


----------



## bretton88

It was also noted that Anderson has made it a priority for Amtrak to complete the dining car convection oven upgrades by the end of the year, at which point Amtrak has said they will refine the dining options further. My guess is this delay is why we're seeing some of the changes get pushed to 2020.


----------



## west point

Here is a blurb from a NARP hotline.
The steps encompass several broad areas, but among the most significant improvements:


Amtrak is getting rid of the box, the bag and the “takeout Chinese” presentation in favor of a meal-specific tray


Amtrak is going to restore the ability of Coach passengers to buy food from the diner, implementing an order-ahead system so that passengers have the option to make selections at booking


Amtrak is introducing FOUR additional hot options for a total of five available


Amtrak is introducing two meat-and-egg breakfast sandwiches: a sausage-egg-cheese English Muffin and a ham-egg-cheese on a ciabatta roll


Amtrak is using a combination of processes and technology to ensure that there is enough food on board for service, and enough variety so that passengers’ first choice is more likely to be available

In addition, Wilander has asked for Rail Passengers’ help in finding a solution to the problems posed by special meals (Kosher, vegan, vegetarian, allergies, sensitivities, etc.).

As for the question that’s top-of-mind for nearly all of us advocates -- what happens to food service on the Western trains -- Wilander was unequivocal, both in his letter and this afternoon in a visit with Wilander at Union Station to sample the new food.


----------



## drfonta

Read in several places that the Auto Train sleepers were going to the new "flexible dining" Oct 1, although this may not have been exactly correct. Press release merely says "new menu". Any new info out there that I may have missed? I'm new here so my apologies if I may have missed this question being answered already.


----------



## ScouseAndy

Few things Amtrak needs to iron out for coach passenger preorders imo

For example coach passenger preorders breakfast as timetabled to join service A at 7am. Same passenger however due to lateness of train only boards at 10:30am. Would they get a refund or would amtrak keep dining area open pass usual hours?

Passenger then misses connection in Chicago due to late running despite having dinner and following day breakfast preordered on next train and then gets shunted onto LSL. Dinner tray is then needed refunding and breakfast tray removed from original service and added to LSL.


----------



## Winecliff Station

lordsigma said:


> Well here it is folks, this now on Amtrak's website under dining. They are now using two new names to describe dining car services. Contemporary dining is now called flexible dining and the traditional dining car service on the western trains they are calling "traditional dining". They have refreshed the entrees for the flexible dining (all options are now hot) and there is now a lighter kid's choice for a kids meal:
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/onboard/meals-dining/flexible-dining.html



No mention of the October 1 changeover date, at least not that I can see.....on the previous page the Meteor is already listed as having Flexible Dining. If my September 30 trip is already switched over I won't be happy, we could have left later by a day or two since our cruise isn't until 10/4 but I didn't want to miss out on traditional dining as they now call it, and figured I'd spend the extra days in FTL at the beach and updating my summer wardrobe a little. But fewer days away from my dogs might have been nice.


----------



## jis

Here is a copy of the the service change announcement from Amtrak


----------



## jiml

With the presentation improved significantly, and perhaps the addition of some soup, salad or sandwich choices at lunchtime, it might not be a total disaster.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Here is a copy of the the service change announcement from Amtrak
> 
> View attachment 14994


Room Service by the SCA is a New Enhancement? 

PR Flackery always over promises and under delivers!


----------



## Rasputin

Bob Dylan said:


> Room Service by the SCA is a New Enhancement?
> 
> PR Flackery always over promises and under delivers!


It is the age--old practice of telling people what they want to hear. It even works many times.


----------



## Dakota 400

Steve4031 said:


> The pasta and meatballs was classified as a kids meal on Amtrak’s website. It would be nice if they had one or two sandwich options for the lunch and dinner options. A cheeseburger would be great. I wouldn’t mind mac in cheese either.



I agree with your comment. The child's meal can be ordered by an adult. I have done that when nothing else on the menu appealed. On this new menu, personally, I think the pasta and meatballs is the most desirable entree shown.


----------



## lordsigma

I agree - the pasta should be available for all it looks good. I do like the look of the shrimp and sausage with rice meal.


----------



## pennyk

Dakota 400 said:


> I agree with your comment. The child's meal can be ordered by an adult. I have done that when nothing else on the menu appealed. On this new menu, personally, I think the pasta and meatballs is the most desirable entree shown.


Not every crew will permit an adult to order a child's meal. I am guessing that the number of child's meals loaded on the train will closely reflect the number of children booked in sleepers.


----------



## Dakota 400

pennyk said:


> Not every crew will permit an adult to order a child's meal. I am guessing that the number of child's meals loaded on the train will closely reflect the number of children booked in sleepers.



That's good to know that I might not be able to order a child's meal.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Dakota 400 said:


> I agree with your comment. The child's meal can be ordered by an adult. I have done that when nothing else on the menu appealed. On this new menu, personally, I think the pasta and meatballs is the most desirable entree shown.


&


pennyk said:


> Not every crew will permit an adult to order a child's meal. I am guessing that the number of child's meals loaded on the train will closely reflect the number of children booked in sleepers.


In my experience adult passengers in coach are (almost) never allowed to order children's meals for themselves. Adult sleeper passengers are sometimes allowed, sometimes not allowed, and sometimes only allowed to order children's meals (such as when adult meals run out).


----------



## Bob Dylan

One of the Childrens Menu items I used to eat for Lunch on the Eagles was the Hot Dog with a Pretzel Bun and Nathan's Weiner. Very tasty!

The Chicken Nuggets, Mac and Cheese and Pizza ( changed throughout the years) were not worth writing home about.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

I will say having a toddler the Kraft Mac and cheese comes out consistent and better than we could make it at home. She doesn’t eat hot dogs yet so after two meals in a row she ends up eating off our plates. Surprisedly even a 18 month old can only have so much Mac and cheese she’s already logged 10 nights onboard.

Someone mentioned earlier some LSA’s won’t sell kids meals to adults due to inventory. We saw that first hand over the holidays. Having dinner a college student seated with us wanted to order the hot dog meal. It was one of the times our daughter was just eating off our plate so I was able to convince the LSA to sell her “our daughters” hot dog meal.


----------



## Steve4031

This is a situation where giving all passengers an opportunity to select their meal ahead of time would benefit all involved.


----------



## lordsigma

Steve4031 said:


> This is a situation where giving all passengers an opportunity to select their meal ahead of time would benefit all involved.



Which apparently is being worked on and is how they will allow coach passengers to purchase meals eventually.


----------



## pennyk

I just received an email from Amtrak informing me about dining changes on an upcoming post October 1 trip
Below is the text of the email (without my name, reservation number and date of travel)


> We have exciting news to share about your upcoming trip Train 97 the Silver Meteor from New York City Penn Station on 10/**/2019.
> 
> Staring October 1, we will be debuting a new dining experience aboard your train—made exclusively available for Sleeping Car customers. Here is what you can expect when you are onboard:
> 
> 
> A new dining menu with hot, ready-to-serve choices for breakfast, lunch and dinner
> A wide selection of wine, beer and spirits (the first one is on us), plus unlimited soft drinks throughout your journey
> Complimentary room service provided by your Sleeping Car attendant
> Exclusive onboard lounge space for Sleeping Car customers to dine and socialize 24x7
> Flexible dining times without the need for reservations
> Sample menus can be found at Amtrak.com/flexdining. Information on special dietary requirements, including kosher meal requests, can be found at Amtrak.com/dining. To review your reservation, visit Amtrak.com.
> 
> We look forward to seeing you on board.
> 
> The most up to date arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps or by calling 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> I just received an email from Amtrak informing me about dining changes on an upcoming post October 1 trip
> Below is the text of the email (without my name, reservation number and date of travel)



After I received that email, I received 2 more. (I have currently have reservations for 3 October trips on the Silver Meteor). I have not received an email for my Meteor trip in November.


----------



## me_little_me

I too just received that notification for our Oct 1 trip. Nice of Amtrak to wait until the 14 day cancellation period is just about here. I'm so thrilled with the opportunity to miss out on the "traditional" menus and get those fabulous new ones with the great new dining experience eating mostly packaged sugars for breakfast and being able to pick and choose the "wonderful" new alternatives.
I think I'm going to cry.
When they did in the Star, I did nothing. When they did in the CL and LSL, I did nothing. Now they are doing it to me and there is nobody left to do anything for me.


----------



## Winecliff Station

me_little_me said:


> I too just received that notification for our Oct 1 trip. Nice of Amtrak to wait until the 14 day cancellation period is just about here. I'm so thrilled with the opportunity to miss out on the "traditional" menus and get those fabulous new ones with the great new dining experience eating mostly packaged sugars for breakfast and being able to pick and choose the "wonderful" new alternatives.
> I think I'm going to cry.
> When they did in the Star, I did nothing. When they did in the CL and LSL, I did nothing. Now they are doing it to me and there is nobody left to do anything for me.



Oh but I think we are supposed to be so grateful because the Silver Starve is now going to have these exciting options which is an improvement from nothing, as is the current offering.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The first to go was the city of New Orleans... this will actually be an improvement to that train.


----------



## Winecliff Station

crescent-zephyr said:


> The first to go was the city of New Orleans... this will actually be an improvement to that train.



I thought the City of New Orleans had been doing some jazz-club style theme with their menu.... at leas that was what the menus led me to believe. It seemed like it would be the most affected by the change.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Winecliff Station said:


> I thought the City of New Orleans had been doing some jazz-club style theme with their menu.... at leas that was what the menus led me to believe. It seemed like it would be the most affected by the change.



The city went from a regular diner to a real CCC car which had some local dishes, back to the ccc car as a traditional diner, than they kept the ccc but dropped the chef and kept 1 server to serve very poor quality pre-made dishes. The change to contemporary dining is a plus for that train imho. But until I taste the new dishes I can’t reallt say for sure. They can’t be worse though.


----------



## Rail Freak

???


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Rail Freak said:


> ???



Sorry I'll try to say that a bit more clearly. The City of New Orleans was the first train to lose it's full dining car, unless you count the Cardinal. 

Here's the current City of New Orleans menu which is all pre-prepared food, but served in the traditional dining car style, with table service. - https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...s-Southbound-Tran-59-Dining-Car-Menu-1017.pdf

Prior to that, the City of New Orleans operated a traditional full dining car service, in a physical CCC car (the way Texas Eagle does now.) 

At the introduction of the CCC cars, the Texas Eagle and the City of New Orleans both had a specific CCC car menu and service that didn't last long... here's a link to a review that includes the full written menu of the original CCC cars - 
http://www.trainweb.org/chris/nod.html

And before that the City of New Orleans operated a full dining car.


----------



## lordsigma

After that was the lake shore right when they took off the heritage diner and went to the Cardinal style meals.


----------



## lordsigma

This will be version 4 of contemporary dining if my count is right. Version one was all chilled meals and a breakfast box that had all sugary stuff. Version two added the one hot braised short ribs meal, version three they dumped the breakfast box and went continental style, and switched up the dinner entrees to mostly hot. And now this is the fourth. And I think around version two they dropped the short lived amenity kits.


----------



## Winecliff Station

I wonder if they will be smart enough to serve the Asian Noodle Bowl as a hot meal..... I can just see the vegetarian passengers complaining that someone forgot to heat their dinner, then when learning it is supposed to be cold, requesting it be heated anyway (at least that is what I would do) which may cause problems with timing of service. This will be even worse for room service passengers. I know, probably a minor petty thing to bring up but I can't be the only one who doesn't care for cold noodles.


----------



## andytiedye

Winecliff Station said:


> I wonder if they will be smart enough to serve the Asian Noodle Bowl as a hot meal..... I can just see the vegetarian passengers complaining that someone forgot to heat their dinner, then when learning it is supposed to be cold, requesting it be heated anyway (at least that is what I would do) which may cause problems with timing of service. This will be even worse for room service passengers. I know, probably a minor petty thing to bring up but I can't be the only one who doesn't care for cold noodles.


Heating up the cold noodles didn't seem to be an option last February when we had them (because they were out of everything else by 7 PM).


----------



## Qapla

I run into that sort of thing with boiled shrimp.

I like my shrimp HOT ... not cold. But, for some reason, most places seem to think boiled shrimp should be cold and served on ice. They look at you funny if you ask to have them served hot and, more often than not, tell you they are not available hot - but they will serve fried ones hot.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

This latest update looks very promising! I may be torching some points this Winter on a Norman OK to West Palm Beach run and now can look forward to the _*Cap*_ and _*Meteor*_ service. I do have to wonder what the improved linens are all about..._*Hello Kitty*_ sheets and towls perhaps...


----------



## lordsigma

I think the noodles are supposed to have the option of cold or heated, but naturally whether you have a choice in practice likely depends on what crew you get.


----------



## Thirdrail7

lordsigma said:


> This will be version 4 of contemporary dining if my count is right. Version one was all chilled meals and a breakfast box that had all sugary stuff. Version two added the one hot braised short ribs meal, version three they dumped the breakfast box and went continental style, and switched up the dinner entrees to mostly hot. And now this is the fourth. And I think around version two they dropped the short lived amenity kits.



Well, when this started, they did say it is a work in progress and they would evaluate reactions and costs. You may see additional tweaks.


----------



## lordsigma

Thirdrail7 said:


> Well, when they did say it is a work in progress and they would evaluate reactions and costs. You may see additional tweaks.



I’m sure there will be many more. Interested in noting the different changes though for interests sake.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> Well, when they did say it is a work in progress and they would evaluate reactions and costs. You may see additional tweaks.



I will admit they are moving in the right direction. But I'm curious how this will work... if you are still forced into certain time slots I'm not sure what is gained. If you really have more freedom of when you can eat your meals, and where you can eat your meals that's a positive.


----------



## Steve4031

I’m hoping they add a cheeseburger and they make sure anyone can order the pasta and meatballs dish. Then the thing would be tolerable imho.


----------



## Qapla

I think they should just put replicators in the Diner car so people can have anything they want - just like on a starship


----------



## lordsigma

Qapla said:


> I think they should just put replicators in the Diner car so people can have anything they want - just like on a starship



Someone needs to invent those - one of the coolest TV gadgets.


----------



## jis

Need for trains might go away if someone invented a teleporter though [emoji52]


----------



## ehbowen

jis said:


> Need for trains might go away if someone invented a teleporter though [emoji52]


Nah. The need for *airlines *would go away!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Once you have the ability to reliably replicate food and flesh the need for naturally derived *humans* goes away.


----------



## me_little_me

Devil's Advocate said:


> Once you have the ability to reliably replicate food and flesh the need for naturally derived *humans* goes away.


The humans will BE the food!


----------



## Qapla

*Soylent Green*


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep this discussion on the topic of Amtrak dining cars and the upcoming October 1st change.

Thanks


----------



## jiml

pennyk said:


> MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep this discussion on the topic of Amtrak dining cars and the upcoming October 1st change.
> 
> Thanks


Good call. The choices were becoming less appetizing than Amtrak's.


----------



## jloewen

crescent-zephyr said:


> Sorry I'll try to say that a bit more clearly. The City of New Orleans was the first train to lose it's full dining car, unless you count the Cardinal.
> 
> Here's the current City of New Orleans menu which is all pre-prepared food, but served in the traditional dining car style, with table service. - https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...s-Southbound-Tran-59-Dining-Car-Menu-1017.pdf
> 
> Prior to that, the City of New Orleans operated a traditional full dining car service, in a physical CCC car (the way Texas Eagle does now.)
> 
> At the introduction of the CCC cars, the Texas Eagle and the City of New Orleans both had a specific CCC car menu and service that didn't last long... here's a link to a review that includes the full written menu of the original CCC cars -
> http://www.trainweb.org/chris/nod.html
> 
> And before that the City of New Orleans operated a full dining car.


When the CONY first abandoned its dining car (well, no, it retained the car but now served sandwiches etc in it), I was disappointed to see that Amtrak didn't have the brains to offer a muffaleta or po'boy. No reference in the menu to the most famous food city in N. Amer. Sigh! Plus the meals were not nearly as good as they had been. So yes, this is an upgrade for that line.


----------



## railiner

This discussion about the constant changes in meal service, is as old as Amtrak...
Who wouldn't yearn for the days when Amtrak offered complete traditional dining car service, but was forced to downgrade to paper plates and table cloths, plastic cutlery, and silk rather than real flowers on the table...but still offered delicious full course meals, freshly prepared on board...?


----------



## Manny T

lordsigma said:


> This will be version 4 of contemporary dining if my count is right. Version one was all chilled meals and a breakfast box that had all sugary stuff. Version two added the one hot braised short ribs meal, version three they dumped the breakfast box and went continental style, and switched up the dinner entrees to mostly hot. And now this is the fourth. And I think around version two they dropped the short lived amenity kits.



Yes, and doesn't this prove that complaining works?

The constant complaints about the cold boxed meals and limited "contemporary dining" options, here and from other sources that reached Amtrak management, must have had an impact to generate the waves of changes.


----------



## jiml

Thinking of this discussion and the parallel one about lounge cars, does it make sense to retain the Superliner dining cars with full kitchens on trains going to flexible dining? I realize this has already effectively happened with the Capitol Limited, but now they're adding the CONL. Presuming Superliner dining cars are in short supply elsewhere and that they carry a lot of additional weight, would it make sense to do "flexible" dining on the table side of a lounge car? In an even longer view, would these routes be better served by single-level consists with modified Viewliner "diners"?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The capitol and the city both use ccc cars, which are actually well designed for this type of use, unlike the viewliner diners.


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> Thinking of this discussion and the parallel one about lounge cars, does it make sense to retain the Superliner dining cars with full kitchens on trains going to flexible dining? I realize this has already effectively happened with the Capitol Limited, but now they're adding the CONL. Presuming Superliner dining cars are in short supply elsewhere and that they carry a lot of additional weight, would it make sense to do "flexible" dining on the table side of a lounge car? In an even longer view, would these routes be better served by single-level consists with modified Viewliner "diners"?



Both CONO and Cap have CCCs not full Dining Cars. They still need the kitchen area to process the flexible food. They just do not need the full staff to do so.

Also, CONO's food service was significantly downgraded to a level that is considered to be worse than the new Flexible Dining, long before the Cap got Contemporary Dining.

There is a school of opinion that there should be no Superliner III and the entire fleet should be reverted back to single level too, naturally with the addition of real Dome Lounges like the days of yore.


----------



## lordsigma

Manny T said:


> Yes, and doesn't this prove that complaining works?
> 
> The constant complaints about the cold boxed meals and limited "contemporary dining" options, here and from other sources that reached Amtrak management, must have had an impact to generate the waves of changes.


I am not criticizing the fact that this is the fourth change - merely keeping score of the changes. I frankly am also glad they have been receptive to changes. To me, this new presentation is a big improvement over the boxes and if the meals are of similar quality to the Acela First Class meals with this presentation, and they make further improvements to deal with meal stock shortages, I can live with it on the eastern trains - I feel bad for the affected employees on the two trains where there are position cuts and hope that some were able to move into other positions (and hope that the additional LSA jobs associated with the Silver Star getting this format will provide a place for some affected employees from the Crescent and Meteor to move), but as far as myself riding the train I can live with it if the quality is acceptable.

I do hope they will keep the traditional diner on trains like the Zephyr, Builder, etc which for now they are and that some things being talked about for flex dining will also be offered for traditional dining, such as the meal pre-selection to help reduce spoilage and "oh sorry we are out of that."


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> The capitol and the city both use ccc cars, which are actually well designed for this type of use, unlike the viewliner diners.





jis said:


> Both CONO and Cap have CCCs not full Dining Cars. They still need the kitchen area to process the flexible food. They just do not need the full staff to do so.
> 
> Also, CONO's food service was significantly downgraded to a level that is considered to be worse than the new Flexible Dining, long before the Cap got Contemporary Dining.
> 
> There is a school of opinion that there should be no Superliner III and the entire fleet should be reverted back to single level too, naturally with the addition of real Dome Lounges like the days of yore.


Thanks, I didn't realize there was a physical difference in the cars as opposed to describing the quite different service provided. The Texas Eagle also has a CCC diner, correct?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> Thanks, I didn't realize there was a physical difference in the cars as opposed to describing the quite different service provided. The Texas Eagle also has a CCC diner, correct?



It’s quite confusing. The CCC cars haven’t operated as CCC cars in about 10 years. It didn’t last long. The all day menu / service model was actually quite a good concept. 

The Texas Eagle operates a full dining car service in a ccc car.


----------



## bretton88

So per the RPA in the reauthorization the Senate has just passed, they're doubling down on Amtrak getting rid of food service losses by 2020. They even require Amtrak to give them a full financial report of the savings that Amtrak is making by the end of the next fiscal year. I doubt we'll ever see traditional dining return or worse we might see further cuts to meet the congressional mandate.


https://www.railpassengers.org/happ...d-funding-for-amtrak-passenger-rail-programs/


----------



## Dakota 400

bretton88 said:


> So per the RPA in the reauthorization the Senate has just passed, they're doubling down on Amtrak getting rid of food service losses by 2020. They even require Amtrak to give them a full financial report of the savings that Amtrak is making by the end of the next fiscal year. I doubt we'll ever see traditional dining return or worse we might see further cuts to meet the congressional mandate.



Well, I don't like this news. And, if I see any indication that proper dining car service will be eliminated on the Auto Train this Winter, Amtrak will have lost this customer for that service.


----------



## bretton88

Dakota 400 said:


> Well, I don't like this news. And, if I see any indication that proper dining car service will be eliminated on the Auto Train this Winter, Amtrak will have lost this customer for that service.


With the way the RPA is reporting it, it sounds like they are being really narrow about it too. They want to see what financial cuts in the food service budget Amtrak is making. Doesn't matter if it causes massive revenue losses in the other line items. This a classic example of congressional micromanaging at its worst.


----------



## Dakota 400

bretton88 said:


> This a classic example of congressional micromanaging at its worst.



Our Congress is unable to macro-manage the larger issues let alone Amtrak's issues!


----------



## lordsigma

I don’t think the auto train sleeper dining car is going to be a casualty. From a “Trying to break even” stand point, the Auto Train is the golden child of the entire long distance service line. It is closer than ever to break even, and with these upcoming changes they could eventually push it into break even or possibly even a slight profit. Auto train likely has a future regardless of what happens to the rest of the network as it really is a unique offering distinct from the rest of Amtrak. A single LSA serving contemporary meals is likely not practical on the Auto Train given the much larger amount of passengers to feed than just about every other train out there. It should also be noted the auto train diner is not the same as the traditional dining on the western trains. While it does have a chef, there is a small limited choice of meals with not much customization allowed, similar to contemporary dining.

I would be more worried about outsourcing. To get to zero losses in F&B, some sort of outsourcing may be the only way. Amtrak, even the current administration, likely realizes that if you dumb down the service too much it negatively affects ridership hence these alterations to contemporary dining. If, however, Amtrak can get to breakeven operationally overall in the next couple years as Anderson keeps hinting (so that no tax payer dollars are needed for F&B) the pressure on this front will likely ebb.


----------



## lordsigma

bretton88 said:


> So per the RPA in the reauthorization the Senate has just passed, they're doubling down on Amtrak getting rid of food service losses by 2020. They even require Amtrak to give them a full financial report of the savings that Amtrak is making by the end of the next fiscal year. I doubt we'll ever see traditional dining return or worse we might see further cuts to meet the congressional mandate.
> 
> 
> https://www.railpassengers.org/happ...d-funding-for-amtrak-passenger-rail-programs/



This isn’t a reauthorization bill it is a spending bill and the senate hasn’t passed it - it’s a draft sub committee bill that could undergo more changes before it passes the full committee, let alone the full senate and reconciliation with the house bill.


----------



## jebr

There's still a few changes that could be made within the "flexible dining" system that I'd like to see made:

The charcuterie plate should still be on offer, perhaps as a welcome aboard option for those boarding between meal times (or, in the case of the Lake Shore Limited, boarding in Chicago!) That plus a beverage (hard or soft) would be a way to make people feel more welcomed aboard.
A hard beverage should be included with each meal. It would seem easier to track and keep accounted for (how well will the attendant remember if someone's had their free drink already if it was two or three meal periods ago?) and it would seem a bit less cheap/chintzy. I can understand not offering an open bar or unlimited drinks, but comp-ing the first drink of each meal shouldn't have issues with people drinking too much (at least without other drinks taking place and either being paid for or already brought on board.)

Some simpler options and cold options would be welcome. A burger with chips would be nice if I'm wanting something a bit more "boring" for a meal, along with maybe an offering of deli sandwiches (similar to what's sold in the cafe car.) I know it's not terribly exciting, but there's times where a heavy meal just won't sit well, but a ham sandwich would be fine.
I'd also like to see some munchies between meal times. It could be something as simple as the bags of Goldfish and other random stuff that's served in the Metropolitan lounges, though ideally having a fruit basket as well and a couple of other healthy options would be nice.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

On board the LSL today, my SCA gave out tickets for the comp drink. Per her it was good both in the dinner-lounge, and cafe car.

Charcuterie plate even small as the one I got on AA would be appreciated, maybe handed out in room, or the cafe car next door.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> This isn’t a reauthorization bill it is a spending bill and the senate hasn’t passed it - it’s a draft sub committee bill that could undergo more changes before it passes the full committee, let alone the full senate and reconciliation with the house bill.



Yes. This is an Appropriation bill. Not the five year Authorization bill. And this is a better draft Appropriation bill than we have had in years. And also it has a long way to go before it is actually passed. Currently the plan is to have a CR covering all the way to Thanksgiving.


----------



## Qapla

jebr said:


> A hard beverage should be included with each meal



And what equal/comparable offering do you give those who do not drink "hard" beverages?



jebr said:


> A burger with chips would be nice if I'm wanting something a bit more "boring" for a meal, along with maybe an offering of deli sandwiches (similar to what's sold in the cafe car.)



Pizza would be nice - but, not that tasteless cardboard they sell in the cafe car.


----------



## jebr

Qapla said:


> And what equal/comparable offering do you give those who do not drink "hard" beverages?



They'd still have the option of soft beverages at each meal - that wouldn't be eliminated. Acela First already offers something similar, and if the drink selection for all is similar or better to that, I'd be fine with that.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> And what equal/comparable offering do you give those who do not drink "hard" beverages?



The same that you currently get for the 1 drink on Amtrak... or when flying first class. No one has to accept the drink, but they can order it if they like.


----------



## Rasputin

jebr said:


> There's still a few changes that could be made within the "flexible dining" system that I'd like to see made:
> 
> A hard beverage should be included with each meal. It would seem easier to track and keep accounted for (how well will the attendant remember if someone's had their free drink already if it was two or three meal periods ago?)


If I recall the procedure during our trip in May, I think it was the sleeping car attendant who gave out the drink tickets so the dining car attendant had no need to try to memorize who had, and who had not, received their free drink.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I was once scolded by an LSA for not ordering my free drink correctly in business class on a Michigan train. I can’t wait to see all the inconsistencies of this service. 

On the flip side, once on an Illinois train I asked for a bottled water thinking I got multiple drinks for free. The lsa was super nice and said “technically you only get one free drink, but I’ve got some extra crew waters I can give you” and he gave me a couple of the little waters.


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> I will admit they are moving in the right direction. But I'm curious how this will work... if you are still forced into certain time slots I'm not sure what is gained. If you really have more freedom of when you can eat your meals, and where you can eat your meals that's a positive.



It seems like it will still work the same as contemporary dining. You have slots for each meal but you won't need reservations. You may show up at any time during the slot for the appropriate meal since a seat at a table is no longer guaranteed.


----------



## Qapla

If I'm not mistaken, I think the new dining arrangement is supposed to include "A selection wine, beer and spirits (the first one is on us), plus unlimited soft drinks throughout the journey."



jebr said:


> They'd still have the option of soft beverages at each meal



Since the soft drinks are part of the perks all sleepers will get - the free "hard" drink is an "extra" perk that those who do not imbibe are not going to get. Doesn't it seem logical that something comparable to a free hard drink should be offered to those who don't/can't drink the hard stuff? Perhaps something like Hot Chocolate ...


----------



## Maverickstation

Good article in the Washington Post about the changes to Amtrak's eastern Dining Cars.

One point that I take issue with is the idea that Millennials don't like the communal tables.
In many new city developments, common spaces are ever larger as that what the Millennial renters, or owners want, and utilize.
In my development in Boston, common areas like the Roof Deck, Community Rooms, and Demonstration Kitchen are all popular.
Further if you look at the Time Out Food Halls that have opened in a number of key cities, all the tables are communal as that's what
the infamous millennials take to, and even older people like myself.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...3cca3a-d888-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html


----------



## Winecliff Station

Maverickstation said:


> Good article in the Washington Post about the changes to Amtrak's eastern Dining Cars.
> 
> One point that I take issue with is the idea that Millennials don't like the communal tables.
> In many new city developments, common spaces are ever larger as that what the Millennial renters, or owners want, and utilize.
> In my development in Boston, common areas like the Roof Deck, Community Rooms, and Demonstration Kitchen are all popular.
> Further if you look at the Time Out Food Halls that have opened in a number of key cities, all the tables are communal as that's what
> the infamous millennials take to, and even older people like myself.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...3cca3a-d888-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html



Lol one more thing to blame on the millennials....even if I believed this was true of the entire age group, it still sounds like a convenient excuse. Right now on the short run Empire State Service trains, the cafe cars are filled with millennials even though there is no cafe service.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Blaming it on millennials is just the excuse. We all know the real reason is the Congressional mandate. I don't understand why Amtrak has to lie about it, and throw a whole generation under the bus.


----------



## Skyline

Other than some of them feeling "entitled" -- an issue with their parents more than anything -- I don't think Millennials are all that different from previous generations. Certainly, as a demographic they socialize better among their peers. Thus, communal tables on a train are likely to be well received by them. So what if some of them choose to focus on their devices instead of conversation? Is that any different than a 50 year old choosing to read a book rather than talk?


----------



## bretton88

Maverickstation said:


> Good article in the Washington Post about the changes to Amtrak's eastern Dining Cars.
> 
> One point that I take issue with is the idea that Millennials don't like the communal tables.
> In many new city developments, common spaces are ever larger as that what the Millennial renters, or owners want, and utilize.
> In my development in Boston, common areas like the Roof Deck, Community Rooms, and Demonstration Kitchen are all popular.
> Further if you look at the Time Out Food Halls that have opened in a number of key cities, all the tables are communal as that's what
> the infamous millennials take to, and even older people like myself.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...3cca3a-d888-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html


There's a big difference between forced sharing and voluntary sharing. With the traditional dining model, you have to sit down with strangers. In places like food halls, renting, etc you go into those situations with people you know. The new model moves more towards the voluntary sharing model.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Losing the table service doesn’t bother me. Losing food that is at least slightly cooked / prepared on board is what bothers me. 

The breakfast menu of the contemporary dining is the most insulting.


----------



## Qapla

chrsjrcj said:


> throw a whole generation under the bus.



In this case they are throwing them under the train ...

A couple months ago I rode the SunRail in Orlando. They have a few tables on the upper level and a bench seating area on the lower level where the benches face each other.

I sat at both area during parts of the trip. I even sat with some Millennials and they had no problem sharing with a "senior" and engaging in conversation ... why not just say it is COngress instead of all the tap-dancing


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> Losing the table service doesn’t bother me. Losing food that is at least slightly cooked / prepared on board is what bothers me.
> 
> The breakfast menu of the contemporary dining is the most insulting.



Losing table service does bother me. I agree with the rest of your comments.

It's unfair, I think, to single out any generation in comments about what that generation likes/does not like. It generalizes that generation too much. The bell curve exists for each generation. One's view of that generation may be due to the encounter with such a person that occupies one end or the other of the bell curve rather than a person who resides closer to the middle.


----------



## Qapla

losing "table service" doesn't bother me, either ... losing the tables all together I would not like.


----------



## lordsigma

The generalizations are annoying. I am a millennial by definition and enjoy the traditional dining just fine.


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> The generalizations are annoying. I am a millennial by definition and enjoy the traditional dining just fine.



And I often take the auto train that “only baby boomers” take and stay in a sleeper and go to the dining car.


----------



## Winecliff Station

lordsigma said:


> The generalizations are annoying. I am a millennial by definition and enjoy the traditional dining just fine.



I hear ya.... I am on the cusp of gen X, born 1967 which puts me very close to boomers so I can identify with both, but I work with many generations of adults so the categories don't mean much to me.


----------



## JRR

At the risk of being repetitious, all the attention is being focused on the cost of F&B service and no attention to revenue. When you purchase a sleeper ticket, the meals are not free, you have paid for them. Actually, you pay for the number of meals which will be served on the trip. Additionally, since there is no additional cost for the room or roomette when two travel, the cost of the room includes all potential meals for all possible travelers in the room (except in the family bedroom, this would normally be 2 persons).

Thus when a person is traveling alone, that person had paid for all meals which would be consumed by two people, whether any meal is consumed or not.

I do not believe that AMRAK is properly accounting for revenue (whether intentional or not). Thus he whole discussion of cutting costs is a “red herring” unless the issue of revenue is addressed.


----------



## lordsigma

Taking another look at the new menu, it does appear they actually are changing up the Asian Noodle Bowl meal that is the sole holdover from the previous revision. Instead of being served with a dressing, it is coming in a garlic-chili sauce. Didn't catch that one before - I am guessing the new one will always be served hot.


----------



## Dakota 400

lordsigma said:


> Taking another look at the new menu, it does appear they actually are changing up the Asian Noodle Bowl meal that is the sole holdover from the previous revision. Instead of being served with a dressing, it is coming in a garlic-chili sauce. Didn't catch that one before - I am guessing the new one will always be served hot.



Wow, hot, I will be so grateful. (Doesn't quite replace the steak that I have enjoyed in the past or the Angus Burger, etc., however.)


----------



## neroden

Top five results for "Amtrak news", which I google regularly (with private browsing so that I get a "generic" search result). Scathing reviews. Specifically, scathing reviews from millennials. Harsher than I would have been. One accuses Mr. Anderson of making entirely phony excuses to make cuts; another states that millennials like the dining car (which has in fact been my experience with millennials).

https://www.eater.com/2019/9/23/20879839/amtrak-dining-car-end

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...3cca3a-d888-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html

https://thetakeout.com/amtrak-dining-car-dead-millennials-1838363648

https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2019/09/23/amtrak-cuts-dining-car/

https://boingboing.net/2019/09/23/millennials-kill-amtraks-din.html


----------



## Qapla

OK ... not to sidetrack the thread - but, what exactly is


a baby-boomer
generation x
millennials
the various other designations


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Qapla said:


> OK ... not to sidetrack the thread - but, what exactly is
> 
> 
> a baby-boomer
> generation x
> millennials
> the various other designations


Google is your friend.


----------



## SarahZ

Qapla said:


> OK ... not to sidetrack the thread - but, what exactly is
> 
> 
> a baby-boomer
> generation x
> millennials
> the various other designations


These are hugely generalized approximations. Some people on the cusp tend to identify with both (or one moreso than the other) depending on the economic and technological changes that occurred during their growing years.

Baby Boomer: 1946 - 1964 (named for the "baby boom" after WWII ended)
GenX: 1965 - 1980
Millennials: 1981 - 1996


----------



## Ryan

JRR said:


> I do not believe that AMRAK is properly accounting for revenue


How does Amtrak account for the revenue?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Qapla said:


> OK ... not to sidetrack the thread - but, what exactly is
> 
> 
> a baby-boomer
> generation x
> millennials
> the various other designations



Generational stereotypes that really have no value (in my opinion)


----------



## chrsjrcj

neroden said:


> Top five results for "Amtrak news", which I google regularly (with private browsing so that I get a "generic" search result). Scathing reviews. Specifically, scathing reviews from millennials. Harsher than I would have been. One accuses Mr. Anderson of making entirely phony excuses to make cuts; another states that millennials like the dining car (which has in fact been my experience with millennials).
> 
> https://www.eater.com/2019/9/23/20879839/amtrak-dining-car-end
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...3cca3a-d888-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html
> 
> https://thetakeout.com/amtrak-dining-car-dead-millennials-1838363648
> 
> https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2019/09/23/amtrak-cuts-dining-car/
> 
> https://boingboing.net/2019/09/23/millennials-kill-amtraks-din.html



On Twitter, I'm seeing some Tweeters with decent follower counts (who never Tweet about Amtrak...or transportation) attacking Amtrak for their generalization regarding Millennials and the dining car. I suspect we'll soon see Amtrak/Anderson change their rhetoric. They would be foolish not to.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Qapla said:


> OK ... not to sidetrack the thread - but, what exactly is
> You'll find variations in this, but:
> 
> silent generation -- generally those born between 1925 and 1945 (74 to 84 years old)
> 
> a baby-boomer -- generally those born between 1946-1964 (55 to 73 years old)
> 
> generation x -- generally those born between generally those 1965-1980 (39 to 54 years old)
> 
> millennials -- generally those born 1981-1996 (23 to 38 years old)
> 
> generation z -- generally those born between 1997-present (22 and younger)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

If anything millennials want healthier food options, not reheated chemistry sets. The scrambled eggs, entree salads, and grilled to order dinner entrees (steak, salmon) as well as the baked potatoes were the best options if you want to eat “natural” food. 

Amtrak also doesn’t seem to get the idea of variety... we went from all salad boxes, to no salad and all re-heated entrees. A decent salad is always a good option.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

The most absurd part of the millennial blame game is that it often comes from people who played some role in raising them. Seems a little...disingenuous. My own generation played no role in raising millions of entitled scorched earth boomers so I feel little obligation to spare them of criticism.



chrsjrcj said:


> Generational stereotypes that really have no value (in my opinion)


It's not perfect or precise but polling and statistical analysis has shown that each of these groups tends to share a range of views and positions formed by similar experiences and social mores. The primary "value" is that you have some idea what other people are talking about when they use these terms.


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## Qapla

Devil's Advocate said:


> The primary "value" is that *you have some idea* what other people are talking about when they use these terms.



Funny, since I had to ask ...

I would have thought "millennials" would apply to those born in the 2000's - guess we don't all have an idea or know what people mean when they use terms they assume everyone has an idea or knows ...


----------



## JRR

Ryan said:


> How does Amtrak account for the revenue?



Ryan: That’s a good question. One would have to examine the accounting to know for sure. 

I have been told by several knowledgeable folks that they use the meal tickets and count as revenue the amount the sleeper passenger would have paid. I don’t know if this is true but, as I pointed out above, this would be totally fallacious since if a passenger doesn’t eat or only eats a small amount, the revenue is less.

In that case the cost is less( less food consumed).

The true revenue is the portion of the sleeper fare which is attributed to the F&B. The sleeper passenger does not eat “free” but pays in advance for the food whether one eats or not.

The question remains, how does AMTRAK account for revenue?

Sorry, Ryan, I do not know and I’m not sure anyone not in the accounting department does.

One would think, however, that the revenue side would receive more attention since it does determine whether or not the costs are being covered.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

lordsigma said:


> Taking another look at the new menu, it does appear they actually are changing up the Asian Noodle Bowl meal that is the sole holdover from the previous revision. Instead of being served with a dressing, it is coming in a garlic-chili sauce. Didn't catch that one before - I am guessing the new one will always be served hot.



I am going to guess those are nothing more than Ramen Noodles with a couple veggies added. I can buy an "add water and microwave" tub of those (complete with a packet of garlic sauce and a packet of dehydrated veggies) at my grocery for less than a buck. Add at most another buck of doctoring and it actually makes a decent under $2 snack/light meal.


----------



## Qapla

JRR said:


> how does AMTRAK account for revenue? ... I do not know and I’m not sure anyone not in the accounting department does.



I'm not sure those IN the accounting department know either



OlympianHiawatha said:


> I can buy an "add water and microwave" tub of those (complete with a packet of garlic sauce and a packet of dehydrated veggies) at my grocery for less than a buck. Add at most another buck of doctoring and it actually makes a decent under $2 snack/light meal.



The same could be said for a steak ... I can buy a nice steak and throw it on the grill fairly cheap - but, it doesn't stop me from eating a steak out from time-to-time


----------



## Ferroequinologist

SanDiegan said:


> From today’s hotline:
> 
> “Rail Passengers Association was disappointed to learn this week that Amtrak plans to extend its Contemporary Dining menu and dining service on to all of the long-distance trains east of the Mississippi.
> 
> The move takes effect October 1 -- the beginning of Fiscal 2020 -- as part of a package of changes rolling out on trains in the eastern half of the country. Western trains are not affected by this move.”
> 
> Ride them while you can ...



Yes and according to a Washington Post article Amtrak's rationale is that millennials (whom they supposedly want to attract) are in a rush and don't have time for dining cars, don't like to converse with strangers and are more interested in their electronics. Strange that they are willing to spend 24 hours on a train but have no time for a meal in a dining car! Strange too that I see them all over my neighborhood spending hours in bars and restaurants. You have to give someone at Amtrak credit for an original phony excuse.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

iliketrains said:


> I’d better plan my trip on the Crescent or is it not included in the contemporary dining?



All East Coast trains are affected. The only train that should see an improvement is the Silver Star. At present it has LESS than 'contemporary dining". The switchover will be an improvement for this train.


----------



## lordsigma

Dakota 400 said:


> Wow, hot, I will be so grateful. (Doesn't quite replace the steak that I have enjoyed in the past or the Angus Burger, etc., however.)



I know, I guess we just have to settle for the little things these days. [emoji30]


----------



## lordsigma

Ferroequinologist said:


> All East Coast trains are affected. The only train that should see an improvement is the Silver Star. At present it has LESS than 'contemporary dining". The switchover will be an improvement for this train.



Some would argue it’s a “status quo” or even a slight improvement for the Cardinal and CONO where they are essentially just now standardizing the non full diner into one program (and also Lake Shore Limited when it got contemporary) with the big downgrades being the Meteor, Crescent (and Capitol Limited.) So the Meteor and Crescent will be the big two to watch.


----------



## lordsigma

There are several other factors besides these generational stereotypes that skew the ridership towards older generations. On the one hand, retirees are the most likely group to have the free time to travel by Amtrak regularly, and more senior folks are more likely to have the money to be able to afford to stay in a sleeper. A lot of millennials are still relatively early in their working careers and many do not likely have the money and vacation time available to make traveling by train (particularly for longer routes) a feasible option. I am going to get to do my cross country trip because I’m a state employee and get an absurd about of paid time off but many in the private sector do not get so much free time. Another factor is that such a large market within the long distance service is northeast to Florida with a whopping three trains serving the state and its obvious that northeast to Florida seasonal travel by retirees is a huge travel market and the auto train particularly is well catered to that demographic. Those things are also going to skew the overnight travel part of Amtrak towards older riders.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

lordsigma said:


> There are several other factors besides these generational stereotypes that skew the ridership towards older generations. On the one hand, retirees are the most likely group to have the free time to travel by Amtrak regularly, and more senior folks are more likely to have the money to be able to afford to stay in a sleeper. A lot of millennials are still relatively early in their working careers and many do not likely have the money and vacation time available to make traveling by train (particularly for longer routes) a feasible option. I am going to get to do my cross country trip because I’m a state employee and get an absurd about of paid time off but many in the private sector do not get so much free time. Another factor is that such a large market within the long distance service is northeast to Florida with a whopping three trains serving the state and its obvious that northeast to Florida seasonal travel by retirees is a huge travel market and the auto train particularly is well catered to that demographic. Those things are also going to skew the overnight travel part of Amtrak towards older riders.



You’re forgetting that many do not travel end to end. If they’re going on a business trip and they’re on the train during meal time they probably want to eat.


----------



## VentureForth

Sorry if this had been addressed already... Presumably, flexible dining will be available eventually to all passengers (sleeping guests get to use the diner). Big question is, available 24/7?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

VentureForth said:


> Big question is, available 24/7?



I would imagine the same dining hours would apply. 

In all reality if the coach attendants are responsible for delivering your food... you’ll get it when they feel like it.


----------



## VentureForth

crescent-zephyr said:


> I would imagine the same dining hours would apply.
> 
> In all reality if the coach attendants are responsible for delivering your food... you’ll get it when they feel like it.


I really don't see what the current dining hours have to do with being able to produce food at any given time. The dining hours were set for crew rest, place setting, paperwork, etc. Some of that will still apply, but not all.

The latter part of your argument is irrelevant. You can have a bad crew on any train at any time for any service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

VentureForth said:


> I really don't see what the current dining hours have to do with being able to produce food at any given time. The dining hours were set for crew rest, place setting, paperwork, etc. Some of that will still apply, but not all.
> 
> The latter part of your argument is irrelevant. You can have a bad crew on any train at any time for any service.



I meant the current hours for the “contemporary” service. There are still set hours for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. 

I mean we know it won’t be 24/7 with only 1 LSA, since that LSA will have time off.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Interesting that the $12 dinner (blue plate special, bottled water and cookie) at your seat for coach customers was discontinued early in the Anderson regime almost 2 years ago. It shouldn’t have been discontinued. The fixed costs were already in place and it brought in some extra revenue to the diner. Customers universally liked it from my experiences.

Why are they now acting like it’s soo hard to bring a dinner (or lunch) in a box to the coach passenger at their seat?


----------



## Dakota 400

JRR said:


> The true revenue is the portion of the sleeper fare which is attributed to the F&B. The sleeper passenger does not eat “free” but pays in advance for the food whether one eats or not.
> 
> The question remains, how does AMTRAK account for revenue?



Since this sleeper passenger is eating "free", how does that bottle of wine that I purchased with my dinner accounted on the balance sheet?


----------



## Dakota 400

Ferroequinologist said:


> Yes and according to a Washington Post article Amtrak's rationale is that millennials (whom they supposedly want to attract) are in a rush and don't have time for dining cars, don't like to converse with strangers and are more interested in their electronics. Strange that they are willing to spend 24 hours on a train but have no time for a meal in a dining car! Strange too that I see them all over my neighborhood spending hours in bars and restaurants. You have to give someone at Amtrak credit for an original phony excuse.



Many current Amtrak younger passengers: In a rush during their daily lives? Probably. Prefer being involved with their electronics rather than conversing with a stranger across a crowded dining car table? Probably.

Willing to go to a local bar and grill and socialize with others of their generation as they root for their favorite local sports team? Yes. Most certainly. 

Consider the ads that I see on TV for beer commercials, sports bars, etc.: What's the message? "Come join us. Drink Beer X. Enjoy a can of a flavored Vodka. Have a plate of the chicken wings. Root with your "friends" (and you said your name was what when you see the person next week) for your favorite local team."

I am not sure that Amtrak's rationale is too far off the mark.


----------



## allanorn

I just reviewed the changes after seeing a news article about them; it's not the disaster I was expecting but it's definitely a downgrade. I do like that they're labeling meals as gluten-free and vegan for those who have dietary restrictions; doubly so if we can pre-order/reserve before boarding. I can survive with this change for a one-night train trip but I wouldn't want this rolled out to multi-night routes.



Seaboard92 said:


> ÖBB of Austria has contracted out food service on their EC, RJ and possibly the IC services. Last time I was in Europe it was Henry am Zug and the food was so so. And the diner lightly patronized. But of note European train stations unlike most of Amtrak’s have really good food outlets in them so patronage of the diner probably has something to do with that.



One thing I did notice when I was in Europe this past July is that generally good restaurants and grocery stores are in train stations serving larger cities, and that in general you're not on a single train for more than 8-12 hours at a time. Unless you're booking crazy-tight connections and/or are running late, you can find something to eat before boarding, after a train segment, or during a change in trains. ÖBB also did serve-at-the-seat for First/Business class; I didn't get an opportunity to review any of the food or dining cars on board.

Overnight trains are also making a comeback in Europe, but they usually depart after dinnertime. ÖBB serves a continental breakfast on board (you fill out a check-box form at boarding the night before).


----------



## Alexandria Nick

Qapla said:


> Funny, since I had to ask ...
> 
> I would have thought "millennials" would apply to those born in the 2000's - guess we don't all have an idea or know what people mean when they use terms they assume everyone has an idea or knows ...



Came of age around 2000. I'm basically the definition of the term when it was coined: graduated high school in 2000.

Somewhere along the way it got conflated with people more than a decade younger than me who I have no connection with.


----------



## chrsjrcj

People born in the post mid-90's are typically referred to as Gen Z or Zoomers. They have been brought up in an age of the Internet, home computers, and smartphones.


----------



## Eric S

Recently, Pew Research defined recent generations as follows:

Boomers: 1946-1964 (ages 55-73)
Generation X: 1965-1980 (ages 39-54)
Millennial/Y: 1981-1996 (ages 23-38)
Generation Z: 1997-2012 (ages 7-22)

Of course, that's just one organization's definition, but does give an idea of what is meant by Millennial versus Generation Z. Traditional college-age folks (18-22ish) are now Gen Z, not Millennials.


----------



## niemi24s

Aren't all those nifty titles for the different age groups just simply splendid? I just _don't_ know how we'd manage to get along without them. And there's at least four of them. My goodness! How to remember all those ages?

So this Pre-Boomer (by six years) simplifies things by calling them all Yuppies. Don't like it? Lump it!


----------



## Palmetto

niemi24s said:


> Aren't all those nifty titles for the different age groups just simply splendid? I just _don't_ know how we'd manage to get along without them. And there's at least four of them. My goodness! How to remember all those ages?
> 
> So this Pre-Boomer (by six years) simplifies things by calling them all Yuppies. Don't like it? Lump it!



Lump it. Takes my back to the fifties, LOL!


----------



## Eric S

niemi24s said:


> Aren't all those nifty titles for the different age groups just simply splendid? I just _don't_ know how we'd manage to get along without them. And there's at least four of them. My goodness! How to remember all those ages?
> 
> So this Pre-Boomer (by six years) simplifies things by calling them all Yuppies. Don't like it? Lump it!



Don't worry, you're not left out from the titles  - the generation prior to Baby Boomers would be the Silent Generation.


----------



## jebr

Let's get back to talking about the dining changes.


----------



## lordsigma

Dakota 400 said:


> Many current Amtrak younger passengers: In a rush during their daily lives? Probably. Prefer being involved with their electronics rather than conversing with a stranger across a crowded dining car table? Probably.
> 
> Willing to go to a local bar and grill and socialize with others of their generation as they root for their favorite local sports team? Yes. Most certainly.
> 
> Consider the ads that I see on TV for beer commercials, sports bars, etc.: What's the message? "Come join us. Drink Beer X. Enjoy a can of a flavored Vodka. Have a plate of the chicken wings. Root with your "friends" (and you said your name was what when you see the person next week) for your favorite local team."
> 
> I am not sure that Amtrak's rationale is too far off the mark.



I think there is one thing they miss - while this is a gross generalization I have noticed a lot of people in my age group do enjoy unique experiences more than buying “stuff” I certainly fit that mold. Many people I have told about traveling on trains and eating in dining cars and staying in sleeper cars find it intriguing and simply never thought of that as an idea for travel (and many didn’t realize you can take a train to as many places as you can.) taking the train on a long trip is a unique experience that I think fits that mold. If you provided a consistent experience (acceptable food, cleanliness, consistent service, and a price point they can afford) you could appeal to younger folks. Certainly there are people in a rush that never would do it - but there are some that would do it for the experience.


----------



## Qapla

lordsigma said:


> *Many people* I have told about traveling on trains and eating in dining cars and staying in sleeper cars find it intriguing and *simply never thought of that as an idea for travel* (and many didn’t realize you can take a train to as many places as you can.) taking the train on a long trip is a unique experience that I think fits that mold.



Spending some money on good, effective advertising would be a way to increase awareness and generate ridership ... with increased ridership instead of service cuts they might find it easier to reach the financial goal they are looking for.


----------



## lordsigma

Qapla said:


> Spending some money on good, effective advertising would be a way to increase awareness and generate ridership ... with increased ridership instead of service cuts they might find it easier to reach the financial goal they are looking for.



Amtrak is stuck between a rock and a hard place: it is a government sponsored entity and thus “shouldn’t spend money” on things like advertising, yet it is expected to aim for making a profit. You can’t have it both ways. Until someone finally decides what Amtrak should be definitively we will forever be stuck in limbo land.


----------



## Winecliff Station

lordsigma said:


> I think there is one thing they miss - while this is a gross generalization I have noticed a lot of people in my age group do enjoy unique experiences more than buying “stuff” I certainly fit that mold. Many people I have told about traveling on trains and eating in dining cars and staying in sleeper cars find it intriguing and simply never thought of that as an idea for travel (and many didn’t realize you can take a train to as many places as you can.) taking the train on a long trip is a unique experience that I think fits that mold. If you provided a consistent experience (acceptable food, cleanliness, consistent service, and a price point they can afford) you could appeal to younger folks. Certainly there are people in a rush that never would do it - but there are some that would do it for the experience.



I am one of those who never knew until recently..... the fact that I can drive 15 minutes to the train station one afternoon and wake up in Chicago or New Orleans or Miami the next day and be right in the middle of town without setting foot on a plane or worrying about an airport transfer is appealing to me. "Saving time" by flying isn't worth the hassle and waiting around while going nowhere that comes with it.


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## Trollopian

For another elegiac look at the vanishing Amtrak dining car, check out today’s segment of NPR’s “Here and Now” show, https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/09/26/amtrak-dining-car. The transportation analyst interviewed, Seth Kaplan, is my neighbor and that rare creature, an aviation expert who loves trains and has taken them for short and long trips around Europe, Asia, and the Americas. And who (along with his wife) is passing that passion on. The photo in the article is their daughter, age 4, in the dining car of the Amtrak Crescent in June, crossing the Potomac on their way to train camp at the Southeastern Railway Museum in Duluth Georgia. The overnight train ride, and train camp, were a hit.


Says Seth, “Despite everything that has changed, it connects her to railroad history, when we read old books and then she gets to experience a dining car, just like in the books. I never imagined our recent time in the dining car, going to Atlanta, would be our last time. But I guess that's life: We often don't realize when we're doing something for the last-ever time.”


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak is stuck between a rock and a hard place: it is a government sponsored entity and thus “shouldn’t spend money” on things like advertising, yet it is expected to aim for making a profit. You can’t have it both ways. Until someone finally decides what Amtrak should be definitively we will forever be stuck in limbo land.



The other problem is that if Amtrak stimulates demand it won't have the equipment it needs to keep up with it ... unless it spends more money.


----------



## jebr

Posts that are off-topic since the reminder have been hidden.

*Posts need to be on-topic to the dining car changes.* If you want to talk about anything off-topic (e.g. different generations,) open a new thread in the lounge.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Just out of curiosity, how will this work if someone travels overnight Sept. 30 to Oct. 1 on the Meteor, Crescent, etc.? Will they have lovely traditional dining car service on September 30 and then have the dining car staff and the cooked meals and the set tables be whisked away overnight so that everything will be "fresh and contemporary" on October 1? (I realize this is a trivial question, except of course for those traveling those dates, for whom it may be very important, but I was just curious.)


----------



## pennyk

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Just out of curiosity, how will this work if someone travels overnight Sept. 30 to Oct. 1 on the Meteor, Crescent, etc.? Will they have lovely traditional dining car service on September 30 and then have the dining car staff and the cooked meals and the set tables be whisked away overnight so that everything will be "fresh and contemporary" on October 1? (I realize this is a trivial question, except of course for those traveling those dates, for whom it may be very important, but I was just curious.)



I guess we will not know until October 1st, unless an Amtrak employee who knows the answer chimes in.


----------



## jebr

My guess is that it'll be based on origination date for the train - any train leaving before October 1 will stay traditional throughout its journey, while everything on/after October 1 will have the new dining service.


----------



## Maverickstation

Millennials and Congress aside, Amtrak has been “tinkering” with meal service on the eastern trains since the arrival of Amfleet. 
When Amfleet started a number of trains like the Montrealler lost their Dining Car, for an Amdinette Service. The timetables stating this was Tray Meal Service with Table Service for Breakfast and Dinner.

In the 80’s the Silver Service trains went to Buffet Style Service for a brief time.

Later the Silver Service trains only offered Dining Car service south of Washington.

There have been other trials as well.

Ken


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

jebr said:


> My guess is that it'll be based on origination date for the train - any train leaving before October 1 will stay traditional throughout its journey, while everything on/after October 1 will have the new dining service.



My worry would be that roughly starting now, "traditional" dining will be using up the left overs found deep in cupboards and pantries, some of which haven't been opened in years.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Qapla said:


> Spending some money on good, effective advertising would be a way to increase awareness and generate ridership ... with increased ridership instead of service cuts they might find it easier to reach the financial goal they are looking for.



It would help to expand the consist to accommodate passengers that wish to travel.


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## VentureForth

Advertising tends to come and go. There was one year they actively advertised at the baseball field, and another year they advertised on the radio (where i won a trip for or family to DC). Other than that, it's radio silence.


----------



## OBS

jebr said:


> My guess is that it'll be based on origination date for the train - any train leaving before October 1 will stay traditional throughout its journey, while everything on/after October 1 will have the new dining service.


That is the way it always worked in the past.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Just out of curiosity, how will this work if someone travels overnight Sept. 30 to Oct. 1 on the Meteor, Crescent, etc.? Will they have lovely traditional dining car service on September 30 and then have the dining car staff and the cooked meals and the set tables be whisked away overnight so that everything will be "fresh and contemporary" on October 1? (I realize this is a trivial question, except of course for those traveling those dates, for whom it may be very important, but I was just curious.)



I'll let you know....we're taking the Meteor tomorrow (9/30) from NY and getting to Ft Lauderdale 10/1.


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## lordsigma

Report what you see. While we know tomorrow is the last day of traditional dining for crescent/meteor and the last day of the current “diner lite” service on the CONO. The current 51 traveling should be the last cardinal with the present diner lites. Do we also know for sure if LSL and CL are also getting the new trays and modified menu starting Tuesday?

Lookout for Tuesday’s Cardinal to see if it has a VL2 diner.


----------



## Meat Puppet

Coming soon; Online-Website-Amazon-digital download
MEAT PUPPET PRESENTS HOW TO ORDER FOOD TO THE TRAIN WITHOUT A DINING CAR.
My book will show all towns near restaurants that deliver to the train stations. Which stops actually have a long enough stop to get food.
using the gps so you know when to place your order. And we are working with door dash and uber easts to integrate them into our platform.
Most establishments are within a few hundred feet of a station so make it easier with train delays.


----------



## Anderson

@Winecliff Station I'm on the same train out of NYP (boarding 98 in about four hours out of RVR [it's late, shock and horror]).


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## Anderson

In general: Many of y'all know how many times I've taken the Meteor and how many times I've had dinner on it between Washington and Richmond (estimates in the 50-100 range would probably be about right). Due to exhaustion last week I couldn't do the Meteor (my brother and I did the Star WAS-RVR instead; I don't think I could have actually _had_ the food and I was going on about eight hours of sleep over two nights to boot). But I wouldn't miss this one for the world. I'm only going as far as ORL (though that will at least get me lunch, which _should_ be the last meal served).


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## Mystic River Dragon

Meat Puppet said:


> Coming soon; Online-Website-Amazon-digital download
> MEAT PUPPET PRESENTS HOW TO ORDER FOOD TO THE TRAIN WITHOUT A DINING CAR.
> My book will show all towns near restaurants that deliver to the train stations. Which stops actually have a long enough stop to get food.
> using the gps so you know when to place your order. And we are working with door dash and uber easts to integrate them into our platform.
> Most establishments are within a few hundred feet of a station so make it easier with train delays.



Meat Puppet,

What a great idea! Would you consider adding an appendix listing diners within walking distance of a station so that those of us who like real breakfasts can get something when we detrain in the morning? (We all have heard about Lou Mitchells and Philippes, but there have to be others!) If I were tech savvy, I could do this, but I am not.


----------



## lordsigma

Sad day with today being the last day of traditional dining on the Crescent and Meteor..I guess the only good piece is that its also the last day of boxes and the resultant waste on the Lake Shore and Capital Limited as well as the often maligned diner lite on the CONO. While I am not trying to downplay the change - its a big downgrade for the Crescent and Meteor, some of the articles out do make it sound worse than it really is like all the dining cars have been eliminated and now the cafe car is the only option. While true for coach pax, diner is still there for sleeper pax albeit with the new menu. None of the articles also clarify that two of the trains getting this treatment already had lost traditional dining and for those this is really just a standardization of how food is served on trains without the traditional dining. It sounds like staffing on the Cardinal and CONO is not affected at all by this. Some that mention that the Silver Star is getting it also don't mention that presently the Silver Star has nothing but the cafe car. In reality, Anderson has cut traditional dining from three trains... the Star, Cardinal, CONO, and Lake Shore lost it before Anderson started (though there was originally a promise to bring it back to the Lake Shore when it got the VL2 which Anderson reneged on.) Not a big fan of Anderson but its important to remember this did start before him.


----------



## Anderson

Amtrak is also _supposed_ to open up the new meal purchases to coach pax. Now, they had that on the Star but went to great pains not to mention the available meal options (which were at least decent), only hiding them at the bottom of the cafe menu...so we'll see.


----------



## lordsigma

Anderson said:


> Amtrak is also _supposed_ to open up the new meal purchases to coach pax. Now, they had that on the Star but went to great pains not to mention the available meal options (which were at least decent), only hiding them at the bottom of the cafe menu...so we'll see.


When they get their online application to allow meal pre-selection working. The way the letter to RPA sounded, it sounds like coach passengers will be required to pre-order any meals they want to get from this program and that they won't just be able to buy them in the cafe car. If I had to guess that would mean that the coach meals would probably get delivered along with the sleeping car meals, the VL2 diner LSA would probably heat them, and then give them to the coach attendants who would make sure the coach passenger gets them - and they'd have to eat either at their seat or in the cafe car. I have no inside info, but I'm guessing that's how it will work based on the letter.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Amtrak is also _supposed_ to open up the new meal purchases to coach pax. Now, they had that on the Star but went to great pains not to mention the available meal options (which were at least decent), only hiding them at the bottom of the cafe menu...so we'll see.


On the Star? When did Star have meal options even for Sleeper passenger since it lost its Diner? Were you alluding to some other train that actually had meal options for anyone at all?


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## Anderson

I'm booked for 5 PM dinner (so an hour and 20 minutes). I rarely eat so early, but they've issued a warning about potentially being short on stuff.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> On the Star? When did Star have meal options even for Sleeper passenger since it lost its Diner? Were you alluding to some other train that actually had meal options for anyone at all?



Thank you for illustrating the problem with the offerings.

So, for about six months or a year, starting something like six months after the diner was cut, you could pay for an _actual_ heated entree that wasn't pizza or a sandwich. One item was beef stroganoff, and I recall there being a sausage-and-penne option (though the latter _may_ have been on the Cardinal instead; IIRC they used the same vendor). Not full diner meals, but they were added in response to the blowup about pulling the diner and only having the cafe.

Of course, Amtrak never actually _advertised_ the meals (I always made it a point to grab one if I was on the train) beyond slipping them onto the menu in the cafe. So nobody knew, nobody bought them, and they vanished quietly after a cycle or two.


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## jis

Not that I traveled much by the Star, so I would not have seen a menu anyway. But yeah, it was a well kept secret.


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## Anderson

To be fair, I only did the Star as much as I did in that timeframe because of Stupid Roomette Tricks.


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## pennyk

Anderson said:


> Thank you for illustrating the problem with the offerings.
> 
> So, for about six months or a year, starting something like six months after the diner was cut, you could pay for an _actual_ heated entree that wasn't pizza or a sandwich. One item was beef stroganoff, and I recall there being a sausage-and-penne option (though the latter _may_ have been on the Cardinal instead; IIRC they used the same vendor). Not full diner meals, but they were added in response to the blowup about pulling the diner and only having the cafe.
> 
> Of course, Amtrak never actually _advertised_ the meals (I always made it a point to grab one if I was on the train) beyond slipping them onto the menu in the cafe. So nobody knew, nobody bought them, and they vanished quietly after a cycle or two.


 .

I recall those meals and I think they were lightly advertised. I spoke to a few people who had tried to meals and they thought they were OK. Because of my food allergies, I was not able to eat any of the several offered options. The ingredients were on the box and I seem to recall taking a photograph of one of the boxes and I found the photo (copied above). The photo was taken 5/14/16.


----------



## Anderson

Pics later, but dinner was good tonight. Some Amtrak PR staff taking pictures of the diner. Probably for Amtrak Ink or something similar.

OBS is...putting their best face on it, but there is a distinct sense that they're _quite_ steamed over this.


----------



## lordsigma

Anderson said:


> Pics later, but dinner was good tonight. Some Amtrak PR staff taking pictures of the diner. Probably for Amtrak Ink or something similar.
> 
> OBS is...putting their best face on it, but there is a distinct sense that they're _quite_ steamed over this.



I feel very bad for the affected OBS staff. One server in particular I had on the crescent last year who was absolutely delightful - I hope they managed to get another position in the company.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Anderson said:


> Pics later, but dinner was good tonight. Some Amtrak PR staff taking pictures of the diner. Probably for Amtrak Ink or something similar.
> 
> OBS is...putting their best face on it, but there is a distinct sense that they're _quite_ steamed over this.



I got more than just a sense from our attendant but then again I kind of invited open discussion 

And just to confirm for those who were asking, traditional dining continues tomorrow as if it were still September


----------



## Qapla

When a construction project gets close to completion many, many people get laid off - Laborers and skilled workers alike ... it does not seem like people worry near as much about them losing their jobs as much as the Amtrak workers that are losing their jobs.

Losing a job is losing a job.

There is one business that lays off at least 1184 people every year and no one complains at all ...


----------



## johnmiller

Amtrak has switched to "Flex Dining" for Sleeping Car passengers on the following trains: Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Crescent, Lake Shore Limited and Silver Meteor.

https://www.amtrak.com/flexdining

So, are these going to be those microwaved meals like they've been doing before? If so, this definitely makes me NOT want to pay the money they want to charge to go on those trains.

Richard Anderson, who used to run Delta, is behind this, I am guessing. Cut a few dollars, but lose a LOT of customers.

Dining is one of the main attractions of riding Amtrak in the Sleeping Cars. I was actually about to book a round trip on the Crescent for $700 or so. But, if this is what they're going to do, I say "no sale."

What are your reactions to this? Thanks.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Acela150 said:


> Ok, I'm officially fed up with Amtrak's direction as far as the LD trains go. I'll be drafting a letter to my Senators and Reps tonight.


It's being run like an airline, not a railroad.


----------



## tim49424

johnmiller said:


> Amtrak has switched to "Flex Dining" for Sleeping Car passengers on the following trains: Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Crescent, Lake Shore Limited and Silver Meteor.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/flexdining
> 
> So, are these going to be those microwaved meals like they've been doing before? If so, this definitely makes me NOT want to pay the money they want to charge to go on those trains.
> 
> Richard Anderson, who used to run Delta, is behind this, I am guessing. Cut a few dollars, but lose a LOT of customers.
> 
> Dining is one of the main attractions of riding Amtrak in the Sleeping Cars. I was actually about to book a round trip on the Crescent for $700 or so. But, if this is what they're going to do, I say "no sale."
> 
> What are your reactions to this? Thanks.




I have a trip on the Cardinal to WAS and the Silver Meteor down to JAX (RT) in December but it may be my last eastern trip for awhile. I’ll have my fill of flex dining (or whatever they’re calling it then) and will stick to the western trains. The only exception would be if I were going to visit family.


----------



## Katibeth

Winecliff Station said:


> I'll let you know....we're taking the Meteor tomorrow (9/30) from NY and getting to Ft Lauderdale 10/1.


You might be the last to enjoy real meals, and a hot breakfast. Enjoy your trip and the food. I hope to take the Capitol Limited and Silver Meteor from Chicago to Orlando next Sept and Oct.


----------



## KMSAlex

If anyone is interested, take a look at what Amtrak is looking for people to do.
Interesting.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/food-delivery-design-with-amtrak-get-carried-away-tickets-67029602345


----------



## johnmiller

tim49424 said:


> I have a trip on the Cardinal to WAS and the Silver Meteor down to JAX (RT) in December but it may be my last eastern trip for awhile. I’ll have my fill of flex dining (or whatever they’re calling it then) and will stick to the western trains. The only exception would be if I were going to visit family.



So, is this already happening? I have a shorter trip from Memphis to New Orleans in December and got this message:

We have exciting news to share about your upcoming trip Train 59 from Memphis, Tennessee.
Staring [sic] October 1, we will be debuting a new dining experience aboard your train—made exclusively available for Sleeping Car customers. Here is what you can expect when you are onboard:

A new dining menu with hot, ready-to-serve choices for breakfast, lunch and dinner
A wide selection of wine, beer and spirits (the first one is on us), plus unlimited soft drinks throughout your journey
Complimentary room service provided by your Sleeping Car attendant 
Exclusive onboard lounge space for Sleeping Car customers to dine and socialize 24x7
Flexible dining times without the need for reservations
Yeah, definitely NOT exciting news! I remember when they did this on the City of New Orleans on our way up to Chicago a while back. Didn't like it then, am not going to like it now.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

johnmiller said:


> Amtrak has switched to "Flex Dining" for Sleeping Car passengers on the following trains: Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Crescent, Lake Shore Limited and Silver Meteor.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/flexdining
> 
> So, are these going to be those microwaved meals like they've been doing before? If so, this definitely makes me NOT want to pay the money they want to charge to go on those trains.
> 
> Richard Anderson, who used to run Delta, is behind this, I am guessing. Cut a few dollars, but lose a LOT of customers.
> 
> Dining is one of the main attractions of riding Amtrak in the Sleeping Cars. I was actually about to book a round trip on the Crescent for $700 or so. But, if this is what they're going to do, I say "no sale."
> 
> What are your reactions to this? Thanks.



1). It’s not microwaved. They use a convection oven. 

2). Blame Congress, not Anderson. He’s following the mandate they gave Amtrak to not lose money on F&B


----------



## lordsigma

Qapla said:


> When a construction project gets close to completion many, many people get laid off - Laborers and skilled workers alike ... it does not seem like people worry near as much about them losing their jobs as much as the Amtrak workers that are losing their jobs.
> 
> Losing a job is losing a job.
> 
> There is one business that lays off at least 1184 people every year and no one complains at all ...


Being in the trade unions and working construction is a different deal and that is a regular part of that lifestyle so I think that is an apples to oranges comparison - those are not meant to be permanent jobs. People use the transition between projects for downtime. But I think people go into jobs like this with hope for a little more job security. While it’s true that one should never presume to have total job security, I Don’t think there’s anything wrong with feeling bad. I feel bad for anyone that is laid off or furloughed from a permanent job unexpectedly regardless of employer.


----------



## ruck

johnmiller said:


> So, is this already happening? I have a shorter trip from Memphis to New Orleans in December and got this message:
> 
> We have exciting news to share about your upcoming trip Train 59 from Memphis, Tennessee.
> Staring [sic] October 1, we will be debuting a new dining experience aboard your train—made exclusively available for Sleeping Car customers. Here is what you can expect when you are onboard:
> 
> A new dining menu with hot, ready-to-serve choices for breakfast, lunch and dinner
> A wide selection of wine, beer and spirits (the first one is on us), plus unlimited soft drinks throughout your journey
> Complimentary room service provided by your Sleeping Car attendant
> Exclusive onboard lounge space for Sleeping Car customers to dine and socialize 24x7
> Flexible dining times without the need for reservations
> Yeah, definitely NOT exciting news! I remember when they did this on the City of New Orleans on our way up to Chicago a while back. Didn't like it then, am not going to like it now.



FWIW my daughter and I recently(Labor Day weekend) took the CONO from Chicago to Jackson and back, I would have much preferred this menu to what was offered.


----------



## Qapla

I feel bad for those who lose jobs also. I guess the point I was trying to convey, and I may have missed the mark, is that, in my opinion, I think the emphasis concerning this change should be the loss of service and quality for the passengers - not the loss of jobs. After all, if this change causes ridership to fall - it could lead to even more jobs lost.

Waiting for reports of the new menu from those who have experienced it ....


----------



## jis

I suppose this could work out to be an experiment in determining what is the true transportation service demand as opposed to experiential service demand.


----------



## Tirnipgreen

Even as a coach customer on the Crescent, I have enjoyed the dining car. Are coach passengers now SOL with respect to dining options...?


----------



## me_little_me

KMSAlex said:


> If anyone is interested, take a look at what Amtrak is looking for people to do.
> Interesting.
> 
> https://www.eventbrite.com/e/food-delivery-design-with-amtrak-get-carried-away-tickets-67029602345


Then they can dump the diners and "diner lounges". Mark my words (unless congress intervenes).


----------



## Eric S

Tirnipgreen said:


> Even as a coach customer on the Crescent, I have enjoyed the dining car. Are coach passengers now SOL with respect to dining options...?



Guess that depends whether you consider the Cafe Car to be a dining option.


----------



## bretton88

johnmiller said:


> So, is this already happening? I have a shorter trip from Memphis to New Orleans in December and got this message:
> 
> We have exciting news to share about your upcoming trip Train 59 from Memphis, Tennessee.
> Staring [sic] October 1, we will be debuting a new dining experience aboard your train—made exclusively available for Sleeping Car customers. Here is what you can expect when you are onboard:
> 
> A new dining menu with hot, ready-to-serve choices for breakfast, lunch and dinner
> A wide selection of wine, beer and spirits (the first one is on us), plus unlimited soft drinks throughout your journey
> Complimentary room service provided by your Sleeping Car attendant
> Exclusive onboard lounge space for Sleeping Car customers to dine and socialize 24x7
> Flexible dining times without the need for reservations
> Yeah, definitely NOT exciting news! I remember when they did this on the City of New Orleans on our way up to Chicago a while back. Didn't like it then, am not going to like it now.


The switch to Flexible Dining is probably an upgrade for the CONO.


----------



## chrsjrcj

me_little_me said:


> Then they can dump the diners and "diner lounges". Mark my words (unless congress intervenes).



I could see Amtrak ditching the cafe/lounge cars, keeping the Viewliner Sleeper Lounge cars, and using cart service for coach passengers.


----------



## tim49424

johnmiller said:


> So, is this already happening? I have a shorter trip from Memphis to New Orleans in December and got this message:
> 
> We have exciting news to share about your upcoming trip Train 59 from Memphis, Tennessee.
> Staring [sic] October 1, we will be debuting a new dining experience aboard your train—made exclusively available for Sleeping Car customers. Here is what you can expect when you are onboard:
> 
> A new dining menu with hot, ready-to-serve choices for breakfast, lunch and dinner
> A wide selection of wine, beer and spirits (the first one is on us), plus unlimited soft drinks throughout your journey
> Complimentary room service provided by your Sleeping Car attendant
> Exclusive onboard lounge space for Sleeping Car customers to dine and socialize 24x7
> Flexible dining times without the need for reservations
> Yeah, definitely NOT exciting news! I remember when they did this on the City of New Orleans on our way up to Chicago a while back. Didn't like it then, am not going to like it now.



I got the same message. It starts today.


----------



## dande

Taking the Meteor tomorrow and got the new dining email so I assume that is what we will be getting?? Bummer


----------



## pennyk

dande said:


> Taking the Meteor tomorrow and got the new dining email so I assume that is what we will be getting?? Bummer


Yes, you will have flex dining tomorrow.


----------



## Tirnipgreen

I consider the Cafe car an option. My problem with it is it isn't open at all times. I got on in Gainesvile, GA the other night at 11:01 pm (2 hours late). I rushed to the Cafe car only to be told that it closed at 11:00...! I assume the employee lives in Greenville or Spartanburg or Gastonia, as they would normally be working until 11:00 and if the train had been on schedule, they would have to be on the train until then. I have to also assume that when the train is late, they are still being paid...probably overtime. So why not keep the Cafe car open for those who might be a little hungry after waiting 2 hours for the train to arrive...? I still wonder if something more than a hot dog or snacks will be available for those Coach passengers on the Crescent...with respect to the elimination of the Diner.


----------



## railbuck

Cafe attendants, like the rest of the OBS crew, ride the entire route. They do not get off the train at an intermediate stop and go home; they have a roomette to sleep in. Keep in mind that they started in New Orleans before 7 (it sounds like you were riding the Crescent northbound), so by the time you boarded they had been on duty for 16 hours with a few short breaks, and would need to open the cafe again in the morning. Longer hours would be more customer friendly, but not so good for the employees.


----------



## pennyk

Tirnipgreen said:


> I still wonder if something more than a hot dog or snacks will be available for those Coach passengers on the Crescent...with respect to the elimination of the Diner.



Coach passengers will have access to the cafe car, which sells more than hot dogs and snacks. The cafe car sells burgers, pizza, sandwiches, cheese trays, breakfast sandwiches in addition to hot dogs and snacks.


----------



## Rail Freak

I just completed my trip to LAX & back from Tampa. This time, I took a plane Tampa to CHI, then CHI-TPA return. All because of this. As a side note: Tried the chicken breast on the Texas Eagle & the SWC. Both times it was dry & tough! ( So I guess I'll ***** when I cant get meals in a Diner & I'll ***** when I do,LOL)


----------



## ClickClack

Got back on the rails this past weekend after a long break. In the past, rode all western trains and had full dinner service and just loved it. Steak and that chocolate volcano was a favorite. Was introduced to the new Flex Dining on the LSL westbound and yes, there is a huge difference in many ways. I love traditional dining and I’m a BB with two millennial kids who loved it as well, but Flex was ok. The food tasted good and well seasoned. Me, I do eat anything, but my wife who is very picky, thought it was good also. We were served in the new diner car which was beautifully decorated. I loved the larger tables a LOT better than the cafe car’s who’s tables squeeze my stomach into my back so that the food stops half way down. We could eat anytime during the time window that meal was being served with no reservations locking us in. Now, I really feel bad that traditional is gone, wish people hadn’t lost their jobs, seriously wish no one not ride because of this and fear that further reduction of riders will cause more changes. It’s not like it was, but I love the rails so much, I can live with it for now. But if the food gets worse, I may be able to comfortably sit at the cafe seats.


----------



## PRR 60

The Flexible Dining options are now shown on Amtrak Food Facts.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Still no mention of hard boiled eggs. Guess they stopped offering that.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Oof...


^ This honestly looks just like a generic coach class airline meal kit rather than any sort of premium cabin entree.


----------



## Ronbo

Wow , Red Wine Braised Beef! ...2340mg of sodium, or 102% DV! In one meal! Yikes!


----------



## dande

Cheese omelette might be okay. I did not see that on the email we got. It listed a sausage egg MeMuffin as the only hot item


----------



## pennyk

dande said:


> Cheese omelette might be okay. I did not see that on the email we got. It listed a sausage egg MeMuffin as the only hot item


Cheese omelet is the kosher option, that needs to be ordered in advance.


----------



## dande

Guess I'm still bringing some donuts


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Looking at the picture above (post 835), the cheese omelet looks like it will taste like rubber when heated, with something that looks like tater tots as the potatoes, and--really--ratatouille with breakfast? And you have to order the darn thing ahead of time or get stuck with the even worse looking continental? Are they nuts?

(Remind me again--how close is Lou Mitchells to the Chicago Amtrak station? 'Cause that is where I'll be heading for breakfast next time I take the train there.) Same with anywhere else--the dinner meals are bad enough, but the breakfast is a disgrace and an insult to the passengers. Anyone in the most basic South Jersey diner could throw something together 20 times better than that--even if they packaged it and sent it on board to be reheated.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ronbo said:


> View attachment 15062
> Wow , Red Wine Braised Beef! ...2340mg of sodium, or 102% DV! In one meal! Yikes!


----------



## pennyk

dande said:


> Guess I'm still bringing some donuts


@dande, if you are able to do so, and it is not too much trouble, can you take a photograph of the ingredients (if available) of the noodle bowl and ask the LSA if it is possible to get the noodles without the sauce. I have food allergies and it may be possible to eat the noodles without the sauce. If not, then I probably will not be able to eat any of the new meals. It would be helpful to know in advance before I board the Meteor in a few days. Thank you <3


----------



## Shortline

Am in Chicago for a meeting, was supposed to fly home tomorrow night, but on a whim, decided to take the train back home to Alabama and booked a bedroom on the Capitol Limited and Crescent.

Honestly not too broken up over Eastern train dining, I rarely used the diner other than for breakfast. Most of it was mediocre at best anyway. I’ll just do what I usually do, eat an earlier dinner in Chicago, will see how the breakfast is now (I will kinda miss the pancakes, French toast etc) eat a late lunch/early dinner in DC at The Dubliner, along with a few (or more) pints. Again, will be whatever passes for breakfast now. But pretty sure I’ll survive.

Now, when I travel out West and am captive for 2+ days.......that would suck, because these new meals look even worse than the crap they used to pass off as “dining” guess we’ll se where this goes.


----------



## tim49424

Shortline said:


> Now, when I travel out West and am captive for 2+ days.......that would suck, because these new meals look even worse than the crap they used to pass off as “dining” guess we’ll se where this goes.



Fortunately that’s not happening yet out west.


----------



## mwmnp

What's the deal with the very high amount of Vitamin A in the four main entrees? In the US, the tolerable upper intake level of Vitamin A is set to 333% of the daily value. The Asian noodle bowl is well above that and the red wine braised beef comes close.


----------



## bms

Unless millennials are nostalgic for school lunches in the '90s, the meals in those photos won't appeal to my generation.


----------



## Palmland

I suspect the braised beef dinner would be somewhat healthier without the ‘specialty desert’. I can’t understand why prepared meals have so much salt. If it’s too bland just add some of your wine!


----------



## PVD

Prepared foods and fast foods are quite often very high in sodium. Anyone who regularly reads nutrition labels would not be surprised. The sinister part of it is how many foods are chock full of sodium, even though there is no hint of it in the taste....I enjoyed my traditional diner visits, but I don't think they were much better on the nutrition scale. One plus is the flexible times rather than reservation, a concept that has become increasingly popular on cruise ships.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Read a review this morning on FB. The horror! They liked everything about the dinner!
Granted, they were on the CONO. [emoji848]


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

“Remind me again--how close is Lou Mitchells to the Chicago Amtrak station? 'Cause that is where I'll be heading for breakfast next time I take the train there.) “


Took the Zypher home on Sunday Chi-GBB no meal served so we got a pizza across the street from Union Station at Beggars Pizza and brought it onboard. Highly recommend the deep dish on par with Giordono’s or Lou Malnoti’s literally right across the street on Clinton Street.

The only nice thing about the Flex dining is the free drinks are back. Had our pizza in the SSL but had to pay 6 bucks for sodas. We usually take the SWC that leaves 40 mins later and includes dinner.


----------



## Palmetto

Tirnipgreen said:


> I consider the Cafe car an option. My problem with it is it isn't open at all times. I got on in Gainesvile, GA the other night at 11:01 pm (2 hours late). I rushed to the Cafe car only to be told that it closed at 11:00...! I assume the employee lives in Greenville or Spartanburg or Gastonia, as they would normally be working until 11:00 and if the train had been on schedule, they would have to be on the train until then. I have to also assume that when the train is late, they are still being paid...probably overtime. So why not keep the Cafe car open for those who might be a little hungry after waiting 2 hours for the train to arrive...? I still wonder if something more than a hot dog or snacks will be available for those Coach passengers on the Crescent...with respect to the elimination of the Diner.



The 24-hour service model, which was apparently successfully tried but dropped, would have worked perfectly for you.


----------



## PVD

The problem with a 24 hour service model is cost vs revenue. You would need an additional staff person, someone would be working during hours when very little revenue is likely to be gained, and the accounting systems would have to change since more than one person would now be handling money and inventory. It would be a positive for some folks, for sure, but probably a major loser financially, making it a non starter under present and any forseeable set of budget rules.


----------



## Barb Stout

jis said:


> I suppose this could work out to be an experiment in determining what is the true transportation service demand as opposed to experiential service demand.


Not entirely. The experiential aspect that's important to me is being able to view the beautiful countryside while not having to watch traffic and getting swayed to sleep. I don't care very much about food. I too am one of those that think that Amtrak should carve off the food and bev from the sleeper cost and have everyone pay for however much or little food they want.


----------



## Anderson

Tirnipgreen said:


> I consider the Cafe car an option. My problem with it is it isn't open at all times. I got on in Gainesvile, GA the other night at 11:01 pm (2 hours late). I rushed to the Cafe car only to be told that it closed at 11:00...! I assume the employee lives in Greenville or Spartanburg or Gastonia, as they would normally be working until 11:00 and if the train had been on schedule, they would have to be on the train until then. I have to also assume that when the train is late, they are still being paid...probably overtime. So why not keep the Cafe car open for those who might be a little hungry after waiting 2 hours for the train to arrive...? I still wonder if something more than a hot dog or snacks will be available for those Coach passengers on the Crescent...with respect to the elimination of the Diner.


There's really no good protocol on this front, particularly in places where station locations are lousy and/or the station has no restaurant to speak of. At least at RVR, there's a McDonald's next door (and CVS is nicely located as well), but DLD? There's a biker bar across the street and a steakhouse about a mile away, but the steakhouse doesn't really help if you don't know the Star is going to be stupidly late until after it leaves Orlando.


----------



## Barb Stout

PVD said:


> The problem with a 24 hour service model is cost vs revenue. You would need an additional staff person, someone would be working during hours when very little revenue is likely to be gained, and the accounting systems would have to change since more than one person would now be handling money and inventory. It would be a positive for some folks, for sure, but probably a major loser financially, making it a non starter under present and any forseeable set of budget rules.


On-site vending machines. Somewhere. lol


----------



## Skyline

Barb Stout said:


> Not entirely. The experiential aspect that's important to me is being able to view the beautiful countryside while not having to watch traffic and getting swayed to sleep. I don't care very much about food. I too am one of those that think that Amtrak should carve off the food and bev from the sleeper cost and have everyone pay for however much or little food they want.





...and if the food, service, etc. are good enough people will keep the diner busy all hours it can be open. Further, people will flock to trains that offer these and other perks. Sure, let the pax decide when, where and what to purchase instead of forcing them to pay for food as part of an overpriced sleeper.


----------



## lordsigma

Tirnipgreen said:


> I consider the Cafe car an option. My problem with it is it isn't open at all times. I got on in Gainesvile, GA the other night at 11:01 pm (2 hours late). I rushed to the Cafe car only to be told that it closed at 11:00...! I assume the employee lives in Greenville or Spartanburg or Gastonia, as they would normally be working until 11:00 and if the train had been on schedule, they would have to be on the train until then. I have to also assume that when the train is late, they are still being paid...probably overtime. So why not keep the Cafe car open for those who might be a little hungry after waiting 2 hours for the train to arrive...? I still wonder if something more than a hot dog or snacks will be available for those Coach passengers on the Crescent...with respect to the elimination of the Diner.


For now, the café car is your only option. There is talk about them offering the flexdining meals to coach once they get the web application up to allow pre-selection of meals. (Sounds like when that's up and running coach passengers would be REQUIRED to preorder to get a meal.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

PVD said:


> Prepared foods and fast foods are quite often very high in sodium. Anyone who regularly reads nutrition labels would not be surprised. The sinister part of it is how many foods are chock full of sodium, even though there is no hint of it in the taste....I enjoyed my traditional diner visits, but I don't think they were much better on the nutrition scale. One plus is the flexible times rather than reservation, a concept that has become increasingly popular on cruise ships.



PVD--I agree with you completely--although I am always praising diner breakfasts (especially my south Jersey diner ones), I would be the last person to say they are healthy. My thought is that, if you are going to inhale all that sodium, sugar, carbohydrate, etc., it might as well be something that looks appealing and tastes delicious, instead of the same unhealthy ingredients in a dish that looks awful and doesn't taste anywhere near as good.


----------



## JoeBas

Mystic River Dragon said:


> it might as well be something that looks appealing and tastes delicious, instead of the same unhealthy ingredients in a dish that looks awful and doesn't taste anywhere near as good.



Looks awful, and doesn't taste anywhere near as good as awful??? 

That'll leave a mark.


----------



## Qapla

PVD said:


> The problem with a 24 hour service model is cost vs revenue. You would need an additional staff person,



It would not take any additional staff if there were adequate vending machines onboard the train for snack and drink items. Today's vending machines are very flexible/capable/reliable and take various means of payment.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

On the meteor now. Crew is friendly but this is not good. Food is TV dinner quality, not as good as domestic first class meals in my opinion. 

Also a pretty small portion, i still feel hungry after eating lunch. 

No mention of the free drink, also wasn’t offered any dessert but I don’t think I can have the brownie or cookie so it doesn’t matter. 

My first time in the new viewliner diners.... they are so beautiful. A bit painful.


----------



## pennyk

crescent-zephyr said:


> On the meteor now. Crew is friendly but this is not good. Food is TV dinner quality, not as good as domestic first class meals in my opinion.
> 
> Also a pretty small portion, i still feel hungry after eating lunch.
> 
> No mention of the free drink, also wasn’t offered any dessert but I don’t think I can have the brownie or cookie so it doesn’t matter.
> 
> My first time in the new viewliner diners.... they are so beautiful. A bit painful.


Do they provide an ingredient list with the entrees? Do you know if one could order the noodle bowl without the sauce? You should ask for your free drink. I believe it is one per trip. Maybe they will wait until dinner to offer the drinks. The crew is just learning the new protocol.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

pennyk said:


> Do they provide an ingredient list with the entrees? Do you know if one could order the noodle bowl without the sauce? You should ask for your free drink. I believe it is one per trip. Maybe they will wait until dinner to offer the drinks. The crew is just learning the new protocol.



No ingredients list. I may ask if I get the chance, they took my order for both lunch and dinner already. 

I’m not blaming the crew, the LSA came out and asked how my food was, said she’s trying her best but it’s all new to her.

Crew is taking up 2 booths in the diner though. Just stating a fact. Doesn’t bug me as it’s nothing new. Ha.


----------



## City of Miami

No new diner on Cardinal #51 today. 

Per Track-a-train 50 should go through CVS in half an hour or so. I'll be on the lookout.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> On the meteor now. Crew is friendly but this is not good. Food is TV dinner quality, not as good as domestic first class meals in my opinion.
> 
> Also a pretty small portion, i still feel hungry after eating lunch.
> 
> No mention of the free drink, also wasn’t offered any dessert but I don’t think I can have the brownie or cookie so it doesn’t matter.
> 
> My first time in the new viewliner diners.... they are so beautiful. A bit painful.



The food doesn't even look as good as a Swanson frozen dinner and certainly not most of the Stouffer's entrees. Such a very poor use of the Viewliner diners!


----------



## PVD

The vending machines of today are quite capable, but they still need to be inventoried, stocked, and cleaned, and dealt with when they don't work. someone has to perform that work. How many customers will accept the fact that if they lose money at 3AM, they have no one to help them. I'm not sure I see a way to make it worth it for the amount of extra business available from those who want overnight food. Most, but certainly not all, could be by the purchase of food/drinks before closing, or before boarding for those coming on overnight. While it would be a nice added feature, I don't see it being worth it.


----------



## JRR

Barb Stout said:


> Not entirely. The experiential aspect that's important to me is being able to view the beautiful countryside while not having to watch traffic and getting swayed to sleep. I don't care very much about food. I too am one of those that think that Amtrak should carve off the food and bev from the sleeper cost and have everyone pay for however much or little food they want.



So how much would the ticket price be reduced if the F&B would be carved off?

Whatever that amount is , it represents the actual amount of revenue properly attributed to F&B. 

I am not saying that is how AMTRAK actually calculates revenue from F&B since no one seems to know how they calculate revenue.

Until that is determined, there is no way to know whether F&B costs are more than revenue or how much, if any, costs need to be reduced to meet the congressional mandate!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> The food doesn't even look as good as a Swanson frozen dinner and certainly not most of the Stouffer's entrees. Such a very poor use of the Viewliner diners!



It's not. I thought the food would be a step up from what I had when the City of New Orleans switched over but it's about the same. Which is very poor quality.

People aren't sure what to do with all the trash they have left over so some people just leave it at the table. Naturally the crew just sits and chats in the booths and doesn't keep the car clean. I love listening to the crews complain about the amount of work in the new system as they sit down in the booths meant for passengers. Classic Amtrak. 

I'm still happy to be on the train vs. flying though... I've missed Long distance trains.


----------



## pennyk

crescent-zephyr said:


> No ingredients list. I may ask if I get the chance, they took my order for both lunch and dinner already.
> 
> I’m not blaming the crew, the LSA came out and asked how my food was, said she’s trying her best but it’s all new to her.


Thanks. That is a bit discouraging.


----------



## City of Miami

After sitting in the CVS station for almost an hour #50 finally crossed my field of vision: NO DINER. The usual consist. I guess "after Oct 1st" doesn't mean what I thought it meant. To this we have come.


----------



## Palmetto

Someone on trainorders rode the City of New Orleans. Liked the flexible dining experience. I'm sure there's others out there who'll chime in on various groups.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Here’s dinner. The potatoes don’t resemble potatoes in taste or texture. The beef is... ok? 

Was told I would just go to the diner and give my room number when I was ready to eat.... but then at 6:00 my attendant came with my meal and said “they made your food so I brought it to you” - I think that’s just confusion cause of the first day but I really wanted to eat in the diner and a bit later. On the plus side, they brought a little table cloth for my roomette table. Also brought a Brownie and a roll, neither of which I can eat, even though I ordered a meal which is listed as gluten free. 

Oh yeah... and the only salad dressing option is Heinz ranch served in ketchup size packets. Keeps getting better and better.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s dinner. The potatoes don’t resemble potatoes in taste or texture. The beef is... ok?



Those aren't potatoes. They're Polenta.

RED WINE BRAISED BEEF With pearl onions, carrots and mushrooms served with *Polenta* and Haricot Vert. Served with a side salad and a specialty dessert.

"Polenta usually gets cooked low and slow on the stove (though there IS an instant version) with any combination of water, milk, cream and butter. ... Polenta is made from a corn variety that grows in Italy known as flint corn. It holds its shape better than the Southern US corn used for grits, which is called dent corn"


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Well that explains that.... I thought they tasted more like grits ha. : -p

Great train over all. On time, surprisingly smooth for csx, super nice and personable attendant. Don’t want anyone to think I’m hating the trip, just not impressed with the food. 

Honestly I could get used to the service model, it has its own pros and cons like the traditional dining.


----------



## lordsigma

City of Miami said:


> After sitting in the CVS station for almost an hour #50 finally crossed my field of vision: NO DINER. The usual consist. I guess "after Oct 1st" doesn't mean what I thought it meant. To this we have come.



Perhaps the cardinal will have one on the next trip since it is a thrice weekly train - just a guess though.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s dinner. The potatoes don’t resemble potatoes in taste or texture. The beef is... ok?
> 
> Was told I would just go to the diner and give my room number when I was ready to eat.... but then at 6:00 my attendant came with my meal and said “they made your food so I brought it to you” - I think that’s just confusion cause of the first day but I really wanted to eat in the diner and a bit later. On the plus side, they brought a little table cloth for my roomette table. Also brought a Brownie and a roll, neither of which I can eat, even though I ordered a meal which is listed as gluten free.
> 
> Oh yeah... and the only salad dressing option is Heinz ranch served in ketchup size packets. Keeps getting better and better.



The photo that you attached of the entree is very unappetizing in its appearance. Both of my Delta's First Class flights this Summer from/to MSP to VYR offered lunches that were far more appealing in appearance. Only two options on both flights were available. I observed both and preferred my lunch on both flights.


----------



## Winecliff Station

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s dinner. The potatoes don’t resemble potatoes in taste or texture. The beef is... ok?
> 
> Was told I would just go to the diner and give my room number when I was ready to eat.... but then at 6:00 my attendant came with my meal and said “they made your food so I brought it to you” - I think that’s just confusion cause of the first day but I really wanted to eat in the diner and a bit later. On the plus side, they brought a little table cloth for my roomette table. Also brought a Brownie and a roll, neither of which I can eat, even though I ordered a meal which is listed as gluten free.
> 
> Oh yeah... and the only salad dressing option is Heinz ranch served in ketchup size packets. Keeps getting better and better.



What? No balsamic vinaigrette? I think there were three dressing choices on the final Meteor dining car southbound.

We're scheduled to come back 10/15 from FLL on the Starve because I didn't think we'd get off the cruise ship early enough to make the Meteor. Now with self-disembarking it may be possible and I was considering changing our booking to the Meteor, but now I'm not sure it's worth the extra cost, other than getting to NY a few hours earlier.


----------



## pennyk

Winecliff Station said:


> What? No balsamic vinaigrette? I think there were three dressing choices on the final Meteor dining car southbound.
> 
> We're scheduled to come back 10/15 from FLL on the Starve because I didn't think we'd get off the cruise ship early enough to make the Meteor. Now with self-disembarking it may be possible and I was considering changing our booking to the Meteor, but now I'm not sure it's worth the extra cost, other than getting to NY a few hours earlier.



In December, I booked the Star after my cruise because I was unsure whether I could get to FTL in time for the Meteor. I got off the ship pretty early and caught a cab. There was virtually no traffic because it was a weekeknd. When I was sure I would get to the station in time, I called to modify my reservation from the Star to the Meteor. I paid a little more but I was happy to get home earlier.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> The photo that you attached of the entree is very unappetizing in its appearance. Both of my Delta's First Class flights this Summer from/to MSP to VYR offered lunches that were far more appealing in appearance. Only two options on both flights were available. I observed both and preferred my lunch on both flights.



I've flown domestic first class on both american and delta this year... both offered better presented, better tasting, and more filling meals in my opinion. To be fair.. neither american or delta offer a choice of desserts. Delta offered a sorbet which was gluten free, American offered the warm cookies which were not. But American had the warmed nuts for an appetizer so that filled me up.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Palmetto said:


> Someone on trainorders rode the City of New Orleans. Liked the flexible dining experience. I'm sure there's others out there who'll chime in on various groups.



I'm not sure what he had to eat... this food is not even close to the quality of the salmon, steak, veggie burger, etc. (I'm not sure I've had the chicken since it was the half chicken so I can't really comment). Just the salads alone have gone downhill. A small cup of iceberg lettuce with a single cherry tomato and a ketchup size packet of heinz ranch dressing vs. the previous Newmans Dressings (Ranch, Balsamic, Thousand Island, maybe French? I always used the Balsamic).

The service model I can see someone liking better than the old... I don't think either is perfect. The general idea of being able to seat yourself and stay as long as you like is kind of nice. Makes the dining car way more casual and lounge like.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> I've flown domestic first class on both american and delta this year... both offered better presented, better tasting, and more filling meals in my opinion. To be fair.. neither american or delta offer a choice of desserts. Delta offered a sorbet which was gluten free, American offered the warm cookies which were not. But American had the warmed nuts for an appetizer so that filled me up.



Delta offered no different dessert. Warmed nuts? Maybe on Delta, but such service does not stand out in my memory. Prompt beverage service as quickly as the Flight Attendant could supply on both flights prior to take-off was superior. When the aircraft boards in front of the First Class section, one's First Class seat further back from that entrance really reduces the Flight Attendant's ability to timely offer the service that he/she is trying to do.


----------



## Winecliff Station

pennyk said:


> In December, I booked the Star after my cruise because I was unsure whether I could get to FTL in time for the Meteor. I got off the ship pretty early and caught a cab. There was virtually no traffic because it was a weekeknd. When I was sure I would get to the station in time, I called to modify my reservation from the Star to the Meteor. I paid a little more but I was happy to get home earlier.



That's good to know I can change it so late in the game....I just realized it's 10/14, not 10/15, that I'll be disembarking which is Columbus Day so hopefully low traffic.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well that explains that.... I thought they tasted more like grits ha. : -p
> 
> Great train over all. On time, surprisingly smooth for csx, super nice and personable attendant. Don’t want anyone to think I’m hating the trip, just not impressed with the food.
> 
> Honestly I could get used to the service model, it has its own pros and cons like the traditional dining.



Which would you say you “preferred” (if you had to get one again.)


----------



## Winecliff Station

crescent-zephyr said:


> I'm not sure what he had to eat... this food is not even close to the quality of the salmon, steak, veggie burger, etc. (I'm not sure I've had the chicken since it was the half chicken so I can't really comment). Just the salads alone have gone downhill. A small cup of iceberg lettuce with a single cherry tomato and a ketchup size packet of heinz ranch dressing vs. the previous Newmans Dressings (Ranch, Balsamic, Thousand Island, maybe French? I always used the Balsamic).
> 
> The service model I can see someone liking better than the old... I don't think either is perfect. The general idea of being able to seat yourself and stay as long as you like is kind of nice. Makes the dining car way more casual and lounge like.



Balsamic vinaigrette, lite Italian and Ranch were the three choices we had on 9/30


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Delta offered no different dessert. Warmed nuts? Maybe on Delta, but such service does not stand out in my memory. Prompt beverage service as quickly as the Flight Attendant could supply on both flights prior to take-off was superior. When the aircraft boards in front of the First Class section, one's First Class seat further back from that entrance really reduces the Flight Attendant's ability to timely offer the service that he/she is trying to do.



American offers these bowls of warmed nuts as an appetizer. They are real ceramic bowls too.. very classy. In my limited experience American has actually had as good or better first class service when compared to Delta. I thought the food was slightly better quality on American too.. but they were pretty comparable.


----------



## philk

City of Miami said:


> No new diner on Cardinal #51 today.
> 
> Per Track-a-train 50 should go through CVS in half an hour or so. I'll be on the lookout.





City of Miami said:


> After sitting in the CVS station for almost an hour #50 finally crossed my field of vision: NO DINER. The usual consist. I guess "after Oct 1st" doesn't mean what I thought it meant. To this we have come.


Today's 50 would not have a dining car since its Sunday's 51 turned at CHI.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Air


crescent-zephyr said:


> American offers these bowls of warmed nuts as an appetizer. They are real ceramic bowls too.. very classy. In my limited experience American has actually had as good or better first class service when compared to Delta. I thought the food was slightly better quality on American too.. but they were pretty comparable.



Air Canada Business does the same...almonds and cashews. And to my delight/horror, brought a newly filled bowl after I finished the first


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> Which would you say you “preferred” (if you had to get one again.)



The Shrimp dish would be my choice. The beef dish tasted so salty I feel like I took a few days off my life expectancy just eating it. The beef itself was tender and had a nice flavor but the sauce was really over the top salt wise.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> American offers these bowls of warmed nuts as an appetizer. They are real ceramic bowls too.. very classy. In my limited experience American has actually had as good or better first class service when compared to Delta. I thought the food was slightly better quality on American too.. but they were pretty comparable.


Did two segments on AA last week. Omelette with sausages, potatoes and warm cinnamon rolls on the first; choice of "Asian Cobb salad" with chicken breast or cheeseburger and salad on the second. Cheeseburger was a bit messy, but surprisingly tasty. Both flights 3 hours long. This shouldn't be difficult to replicate on a train with single overnight.

Also rode Pacific Surfliner and got a look at the café menu. Some of it looked pretty good, and even the free snack box in Business Class was much better than expected. Amtrak doesn't even have to look to the airlines for inspiration - just look to the west coast.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Last week was on three AA First and the LSL. Snack, Nothing, Dinner.

The Lake Shore Limited was not better or worse than AA.

All four segments were forgettable.

On America Airlines Domestic First:
The only thing I really like was the warm nuts on two flights, and have my drink in a real glass. The dinner was pasta, not good and tiny. The snack was a cheese tray, quite good, but the grapes were not prime, the snack did hit the spot with the warm nuts, but it was dinner time and was surprised I did not get a dinner. DFW to Chicago. The flight from Albany only had a drink and a bag of chips offered. The cheese tray would of been perfect for this flight.

On the Lake Shore Limited:
The breakfast sandwich hit the spot, but served in wrapper.
The lunch was just small, and had to eat the sugar laden brownie to fill up.

In recap I was not impressed and I could do better.


----------



## lordsigma

jiml said:


> Did two segments on AA last week. Omelette with sausages, potatoes and warm cinnamon rolls on the first; choice of "Asian Cobb salad" with chicken breast or cheeseburger and salad on the second. Cheeseburger was a bit messy, but surprisingly tasty. Both flights 3 hours long. This shouldn't be difficult to replicate on a train with single overnight.
> 
> Also rode Pacific Surfliner and got a look at the café menu. Some of it looked pretty good, and even the free snack box in Business Class was much better than expected. Amtrak doesn't even have to look to the airlines for inspiration - just look to the west coast.



Or even the east - Acela first has some decent preprepared heated meals.


----------



## Qapla

After reading these reviews - makes me glad I ride coach on the Silvers ... and bring my own food


----------



## jis

Winecliff Station said:


> Air Canada Business does the same...almonds and cashews. And to my delight/horror, brought a newly filled bowl after I finished the first


Likewise on United.

I also like the fresh baked Chocolate Chip Cookie after the meal on domestic flights. On intercontinental flights in Business Class or in Polaris as they call it, the dessert, cheese plate and after dinner drinks is a much more elaborate affair.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The chicken and twice baked potato I had on American was pretty good. Still not as good as traditional dining car food, but imho, better than the new flex dining. 

Also, American served the meals on real plates with silverwear in a cloth napkin. And as you mentioned, real glasses (complete with aa logo etched). At least they are trying.


----------



## F900ElCapitan

Just as a heads up as to where to concentrate the next fight. As my wife and I were finishing our trip on the Texas Eagle, during the stretch stop in Dallas our diner cook opened her window and got some fresh air. I complimented her highly as the food on the Eagle had been the best of all the trains we rode (this held for both directions). She was very appreciative, but asked me to write my congress folks to ask them to continue the diner service. She said they are hearing the goal to terminate the diner on the Texas Eagle (and maybe others in the west) is a year and a half.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I live in the middle of the country and mainly fly baby jets out of a spoke-port, so even in First Class there is little or no food to be found on most domestic trips. That being said the short duration means I rarely feel the need or desire to eat anything substantial. Bring me a drink and a snack on my 1-3 hour flight and I'm fine. If there is a long layover due to bad weather or maintenance delays I can find better food at airports than I can on Amtrak or in the vast majority of train stations. Most of my airline meal experience comes from transoceanic flights and it honestly blows my mind that I can find tastier meals thirty thousand feet over the Pacific than thirteen feet over Texas. On-board dining is an area where Amtrak could mop the floor with airline standards, but instead they struggle to keep up and look to be falling even further behind. No matter who you think is most responsible for this situation it's an extremely unfortunate result.


----------



## Anderson

As an aside, how were the PPC meals handled (in terms of packaging, prep) on the supplier side? Aside from being a nice variety vs the standard diner fare, they did seem to be a pretty straightforward operation (and the PPC only required one attendant to work on that side, while the kitchen was as busy as any "normal" kitchen).

Anyhow, I was on Delta yesterday (MCO-JFK-DCA). The lunch on MCO was also pretty boilerplate. Got stuck with the chicken salad (that is, a salad with chicken on top) since the sliders "sold out" by the time the FA was through rows 1 and 2. Food was on actual dishes, drinks in actual glasses (except at takeoff), served with actual flatware. The only mild shortcoming (other than the meal being boilerplate) was that the dessert was an oatmeal raisin cookie. I don't generally "do" raisins in cookies, so that went in my bag for a friend.


----------



## Rasputin

Just wanted to give a shout-out to TV dinners. During my college days I probably consumed hundreds of them - at least twice a week I would say. Overall I thought they were very good. Sometimes I would get creative and even make a salad from scratch to go with my TV dinner. 

They were quite economical for one person. Of course I wasn't paying hundreds of dollars, like Amtrak passengers do, for the privilege of eating that fare.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

DA makes a good point. Even a long domestic flight you only get 1 meal. My trip on the Meteor (not end to end, Orlando - Philadelphia) is over 3 meal periods. 

The current offerings do not resemble anything you order and receive in a restaurant. They are TV dinners basically. 

The old menu wasn’t fine dining, but it was comparable to what people order at a Denny’s, Applebee’s, etc.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Here’s breakfast. Amtrak crew is sitting at the “buffet table” so you awkwardly get your coffee creamer, etc. while they are just sitting there. 

Lsa has a tip jar out of course.

Oh and iced coffee is no longer on the “flex” dining menu (it was on the original contemporary dining menus).


----------



## jiml

Winecliff Station said:


> Air Canada Business does the same...almonds and cashews. And to my delight/horror, brought a newly filled bowl after I finished the first


Don't hold Air Canada up as a shining example. Just spent 5 hours flying home from SoCal with them, followed by another 1.5 hours on the tarmac waiting for a gate. The nuts mentioned were stale and served cold (not hot like AA), collected before finished so they could rush through dinner. Pre-departure drink (your choice on most airlines) was water - take it or leave it. Both choices of food looked much worse than what Amtrak's new dining offers and were just as unappetizing. Dessert was a still partially frozen blondie - half the size of the one on Amtrak. One glass of wine, no refills offered - just more water. The highlight of the trip was the UA lounge before departure. I'd try the new Amtrak dinner before repeating this. At least there would be a decent view.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s breakfast. Amtrak crew is sitting at the “buffet table” so you awkwardly get your coffee creamer, etc. while they are just sitting there.
> 
> Lsa has a tip jar out of course.
> 
> Oh and iced coffee is no longer on the “flex” dining menu (it was on the original contemporary dining menus).



Do you know if they have the hard boiled eggs? It’s not on the menu, but I thought I saw it mentioned on the news release. It was on the previous menu.


----------



## Shortline

On the Capitol Limited. I was prepared to be disappointed, but you know what? I don’t hate this, really.

Pros-eat whenever you want. No need to decide hours early what time later you will want. When you’re ready-you go.

A free drink was a nice touch, as I was drinking anyway. Saved me a few bucks I suppose.

No endless PA announcements about seating times, etc.

Breakfast is healthier-sure, I love pancakes and omelettes-but the oatmeal and yogurt I had this morning was arguably better for me, and what I eat at home anyway.

For dinner, wasn’t really hungry, ate before boarding but wanted to check it out-had the kids pasta and meatballs. Actually wasn’t bad! The side salad however was just lettuce starting to turn brown. Wasn’t thrilled about that.


Cons-well-even though the steak of days past wasn’t great, hey, it was still a steak.

As has been mentioned-it’s just convection oven heated glorified TV dinners will be on the Crescent tonight, will see how another meal is.

All in all, the diner isn’t crowded, things seem to flow well, food isn’t as bad as I expected. Maybe the sky isn’t falling.

And Amtrak is asking-two people from corporate we’re riding the train and talking to everyone getting opinions. So there is that.


----------



## lordsigma

Shortline said:


> For dinner, wasn’t really hungry, ate before boarding but wanted to check it out-had the kids pasta and meatballs. Actually wasn’t bad! The side salad however was just lettuce starting to turn brown. Wasn’t thrilled about that.


So they don't restrict that one to kids I take it? Is the portion actually smaller than the other meals?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

No mention of hard boiled eggs but I didn’t ask about them. I would have liked them, as I can’t have the sandwich so I was stuck with yogurt, fruit and cereal. But at least they have Cheerios which are gluten free.


----------



## Asher

AmtrakBlue said:


> 1). It’s not microwaved. They use a convection oven.
> 
> 2). Blame Congress, not Anderson. He’s following the mandate they gave Amtrak to not lose money on F&B



Well now, if I were to purchase a ready made meal at home, something I've done plenty of times, I would stick it in the microwave. Hearing they use a convection oven, I feel that right there is a step up from my normal and something to look forward to.


----------



## Shortline

The “kids” pasta seemed to be the same size as the other meals. Several folks got it, they didn’t restrict it to just kids this time anyway. As with all things Amtrak, your experience may vary!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s breakfast. Amtrak crew is sitting at the “buffet table” so you awkwardly get your coffee creamer, etc. while they are just sitting there. Lsa has a tip jar out of course. Oh and iced coffee is no longer on the “flex” dining menu (it was on the original contemporary dining menus).


That's hilarious. Get yourself to the counter, collect your own items, bus your own table, but don't forget to tip on the way out. It's almost like Anderson and the Amtrak dining staff deserve each other.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

anumberone said:


> Well now, if I were to purchase a ready made meal at home, something I've done plenty of times, I would stick it in the microwave. Hearing they use a convection oven, I feel that right there is a step up from my normal and something to look forward to.



I would take an Amy's microwaved dinner over this.. but that's just my opinion.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Shortline said:


> On the Capitol Limited. I was prepared to be disappointed, but you know what? I don’t hate this, really.
> 
> Pros-eat whenever you want. No need to decide hours early what time later you will want. When you’re ready-you go.
> 
> A free drink was a nice touch, as I was drinking anyway. Saved me a few bucks I suppose.
> 
> No endless PA announcements about seating times, etc.
> 
> Breakfast is healthier-sure, I love pancakes and omelettes-but the oatmeal and yogurt I had this morning was arguably better for me, and what I eat at home anyway.
> 
> For dinner, wasn’t really hungry, ate before boarding but wanted to check it out-had the kids pasta and meatballs. Actually wasn’t bad! The side salad however was just lettuce starting to turn brown. Wasn’t thrilled about that.
> 
> 
> Cons-well-even though the steak of days past wasn’t great, hey, it was still a steak.
> 
> As has been mentioned-it’s just convection oven heated glorified TV dinners will be on the Crescent tonight, will see how another meal is.
> 
> All in all, the diner isn’t crowded, things seem to flow well, food isn’t as bad as I expected. Maybe the sky isn’t falling.
> 
> And Amtrak is asking-two people from corporate we’re riding the train and talking to everyone getting opinions. So there is that.



You could have had oatmeal (and not the instant kind) and yogurt on any amtrak dining car if you chose to. I personally prefer a slightly larger breakfast but since you were satisfied all the customers should be satisfied? 

And again... you could have always ordered a kids pasta dish if you got on the train and weren't hungry. Would you ever go to a restaurant and order a kids spaghetti and meatball plate? I know I wouldn't order a frozen shrimp and sausage rice bowl but I would and have ordered Salmon and Mashed potatoes, Grilled Chicken Breast and baked potato, etc. in a restaurant. I think that's my biggest complaint... this is not even close to food that I would usually order. 

As for the service model... you're right. I personally don't mind it because I can just walk in and have a seat anywhere, stay as long as I like, etc. It makes the car feel way more casual and more like a lounge car but there are pro's and con's with that just like the traditional dining car. Of course... the car isn't crowded because it's not serving the entire train, it's just a table car for sleeping car passengers and the new employee break room.


----------



## Seaboard92

It’s funny on VIA Rail you don’t see the crews using a table for supplies in the diner. And you don’t see employees milling around at tables endlessly. 

That is the example we should go after. And same with meals go back to full service 

Some of us can’t eat any of the breakfast items because we don’t like any of them.


----------



## pennyk

Seaboard92 said:


> Some of us can’t eat any of the breakfast items because we don’t like any of them.


...and some of us likely cannot eat any of the lunch or dinner entrees because they likely contain ingredients to which we are allergic.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Seaboard92 said:


> It’s funny on VIA Rail you don’t see the crews using a table for supplies in the diner. And you don’t see employees milling around at tables endlessly.
> 
> That is the example we should go after. And same with meals go back to full service
> 
> Some of us can’t eat any of the breakfast items because we don’t like any of them.



Also the VIA Rail steward comes by to get drink orders and suggests various wines and beers. I'd say 75% of my tablemates on VIA ordered wine or beer at dinner. It's a great way to make money. and yes the Steward on VIA uses the Steward's desk and doesn't pile up paper work everywhere. 

Which reminds me... the LSA in the new flex diner STILL had all these papers everywhere on the table. I'm not sure if she was doing inventory or what but once again the whole process is just wrong.


----------



## jis

I suppose it will take a while for old habits to die?


----------



## Seaboard92

Seeing it looks ever more like Amtrak wants to contract out OBS maybe we can hope and pray VIA bids on it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Seaboard92 said:


> Seeing it looks ever more like Amtrak wants to contract out OBS maybe we can hope and pray VIA bids on it.



Start your company and give it a try! Crazier things have happened.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Seeing it looks ever more like Amtrak wants to contract out OBS maybe we can hope and pray VIA bids on it.


VIA, which loses money hand over fist and is subsidized by the Canadian Government will bid on something where they will lose even more money? Of course! Afterall the Canadians did fund our Acelas too


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Actually as a contractor they might come out ahead. Strange times. (Joking about VIA) but a company paying wages like Ellis’s Hoosier state could probably make a go of it if it was just dining services. He had great dedicated employees and I’m sure he didn’t pay that well.

Yes there’s the union issue but if the goal is to remove all dining crews nationwide in the next 1.5 years as is the rumor, the jobs will be gone either way.
I look forward to the day of new competence and honest Amtrak management.


----------



## jis

I am almost certain they will not be allowed to bid, since that is not part of their mission.


----------



## Shortline

crescent-zephyr said:


> You could have had oatmeal (and not the instant kind) and yogurt on any amtrak dining car if you chose to. I personally prefer a slightly larger breakfast but since you were satisfied all the customers should be satisfied?
> 
> Would you ever go to a restaurant and order a kids spaghetti and meatball plate? I know I wouldn't order a frozen shrimp and sausage rice bowl but I would and have ordered Salmon and Mashed potatoes, Grilled Chicken Breast and baked potato, etc. in a restaurant. I think that's my biggest complaint... this is not even close to food that I would usually order.



Whoa, calm down my man! First, I never said if I was satisfied, all th customers should be too. I said I was satisfied. Frankly, I don’t care if you are, or if you are not. I do care if I am, as I am the one paying for it. You can make your own determination. And from the pages and pages of moaning wailing and gnashing of teeth, it doesn’t seem like most on this forum will be. That’s a shame, really. I was prepared to not be. But surprisingly it wasn’t that bad, and frankly I think like you said, the service model is an improvement overall.

Second, the “kids” pasta is a full size meal. Honestly not sure why they even label it as a kids meal, at all. It actually was better than many of the dinner meals I’ve had on board in the past. So would I order pasta in a restaraunt? Of course.

Third, I haven’t had the shrimp thing yet. Maybe tonight. But everyone I spoke to recommended it. Maybe it doesn’t suck! I am picky about seafood, and that “seafood cake” thing they used to hav was atrocious. So I’m shy about seafood on a train, like you said, especially from a frozen dinner thing.....but I remember when they had fried catfish 5-6 years ago. Was afraid of it, but after so many steak and chicken meals during a busy travel month, I gave it a shot. And man, THAT was actually great! Then they dropped it. Go figure lol.

It’s not the golden age of streamliners anymore. And that is never coming back, that I can see anyway. I get it, many people, especially on this fan page, save up for months, and go for the experience and like the nostalgia. I’m a business traveler. I travel 4-6 trips a year on average by train, to break up my ndless flights nearly every week. Some years more, some years less, but usually every few months I do an overnight trip. Generally between BHM or CHI and DC/NYC, and out West sometimes too. I also kinda dig the nostalgia, in the old stations, etc, but really am here to travel, and work, not take a land cruise.

I kinda dig the move to modernize the service model for convenience. Honestly, I see this as a generally good thing now. Especially on these short one night trips, I can eat well before, or after the trip. On board, I just need a place to work, and sleep. Hell I usually brought my own food on board and skipped the diner anyway. A nice charcuterie, and wine, or a decent sandwich n my room had become my norm. Probably will continue to be. Diner food was so mediocre, I rarely bothered with it over the last 2-3 years anyway.

In short, so far I’m surprisingly fine with the changes, and can’t wait for the improved bedding for the sleepers, that was WAY overdue! I get not everyone is. But I hope this is just the beginning of making rail travel much more contemporary.


----------



## Seaboard92

crescent-zephyr said:


> Start your company and give it a try! Crazier things have happened.



Only if I I had really knowledgeable help. As there is a lot I don’t know. What I do know is how to treat employees right, and how to give good service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Shortline said:


> Whoa, calm down my man! First, I never said if I was satisfied, all th customers should be too. I said I was satisfied. Frankly, I don’t care if you are, or if you are not. I do care if I am, as I am the one paying for it.


 I typed it in a calm tone.. my macbook keyboard must have translated it into angry  I was just trying to figure out the logic of your thoughts that offering less options is a good thing. 

I can see the appeal of the service model. The "full service" dining car model wasn't for everyone... but I don't feel this is either. That being said I was fine with it. I personally was not satisfied with the food or the selection but interesting that you think it's fine. I'll say that the shrimp dish was maybe as good as some of the pasta dishes that I've had from amtrak in the past... but I never thought the pasta dishes were very good. I thought the steak, salmon, chicken, veggie burger, entree salads, and hot breakfasts were good and as I said... as good as I expect in a Denny's, Applebees, etc. 

I'm with you on the travel style... I travel for work full time. I'm not taking a land cruise either but if I'm going to take a train with multiple meal periods, I want to have what I consider decent meals. I wasn't walking in with my mind made up. As tacky as I personally feel it is to serve the foil covered meals in paper bags... the service model does work and I enjoyed walking in and just having a seat and taking my time.

Honestly my solution would be keep the chef position, can the LSA and the sleeper attendants have to serve the food... that's basically what I observed. The LSA is heating the meals, bagging them, and the attendants are getting drinks and delivering the food. So at that point... why not keep the chef? Much better use of money in my book.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Those of you who have been on the Meteor since the changeover--can you tell us if they have the same number of dining car staff? Or if they are the same people as before? I always found the dining car crews on the Meteor decent to wonderful, and the attitude and laziness thing doesn't sound like the ones I've known through the years.

I wonder if they are just as discouraged about this change as many of the passengers are, and it's coming out like this?

Also, of course, I bet nobody bothered to walk them through the new system--they were probably just supposed to figure it out overnight on their own.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Well the “dining car crew” is now a single LSA. She was fairly young.


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> ...and some of us likely cannot eat any of the lunch or dinner entrees because they likely contain ingredients to which we are allergic.



I am on the Silver Meteor now in the sleeper lounge not eating any of the lunch/dinner entrees because they all contain garlic, to which I am allergic. I am drinkling Lipton Pure Leaf ice tea, which I am enjoying. 

The woman at the next table was not real happy with her chicken fettuccini. She said it was gloppy. She said she had the steak on her southbound trip a couple of weeks ago it was great.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Those of you who have been on the Meteor since the changeover--can you tell us if they have the same number of dining car staff? Or if they are the same people as before? I always found the dining car crews on the Meteor decent to wonderful, and the attitude and laziness thing doesn't sound like the ones I've known through the years.
> 
> I wonder if they are just as discouraged about this change as many of the passengers are, and it's coming out like this?
> 
> Also, of course, I bet nobody bothered to walk them through the new system--they were probably just supposed to figure it out overnight on their own.



One of the changes was the elimination of the dining staff. That’s where they’re cutting costs. The SCAs are helping the LSA.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

AmtrakBlue said:


> One of the changes was the elimination of the dining staff. That’s where they’re cutting costs. The SCAs are helping the LSA.



Thanks, Betty--that's what I thought, and I couldn't figure out why there seemed to be more than one staff person in the dining car--so the people sitting there must be the LSA and the SCAs?

I'm so, so sorry to see the dining staff go, but I'm glad to know it's not my dining staff friends from the old days that are the ones with the attitude.


----------



## pennyk

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Those of you who have been on the Meteor since the changeover--can you tell us if they have the same number of dining car staff? Or if they are the same people as before? I always found the dining car crews on the Meteor decent to wonderful, and the attitude and laziness thing doesn't sound like the ones I've known through the years.
> 
> I wonder if they are just as discouraged about this change as many of the passengers are, and it's coming out like this?
> 
> Also, of course, I bet nobody bothered to walk them through the new system--they were probably just supposed to figure it out overnight on their own.


I am on the Meteor now with one LSA who I recognize from past trips. The crew has been trained, but not all questions have been answered. The cafe attendant, who I also recognize from past trips, told me he has been on the phone many times to his manager today (one phone call was about me).

The SCAs are helping out the LSA. Passengers appear to be pretty patient waiting for their food and I have not seen any anger on the part of crew or passengers. Maybe a little disappointment by passengers who were expecting traditional dining.


----------



## JRR

crescent-zephyr said:


> Also the VIA Rail steward comes by to get drink orders and suggests various wines and beers. I'd say 75% of my tablemates on VIA ordered wine or beer at dinner. It's a great way to make money. and yes the Steward on VIA uses the Steward's desk and doesn't pile up paper work everywhere.
> 
> Which reminds me... the LSA in the new flex diner STILL had all these papers everywhere on the table. I'm not sure if she was doing inventory or what but once again the whole process is just wrong.



And they offer some really good Canadian wines!


----------



## Shortline

Ok. My experience last night on the Capitol Lmtd was good with this new dining thing. There were managers riding along, so maybe it was a dog and pony show for them and the cross country cafe dining car seemed to work well for that. 

Not so much tonight on the Crescent. Been sitting here for 22 minutes now and the 1 person doing everything is in no hurry, doing just one thing at a time. No eye contact, ignore everything. I almost did my usual and brought dinner on board with me but wanted to try one of the new dishes. Guess I won’t make that mistake again. Y’all were right, I was wrong, this does suck.


----------



## pennyk

The passengers at the table next to me during dinner had the beef and said it was OK. It smelled pretty good. At another table, one woman had the beef, that she liked and another woman had the chicken fettuccini, which she did not like.

I learned that if the crew wants a flex dining meal for lunch or dinner, it will cost them $25 each meal. They are alloted a certain per diem amount, but 3 meals would put them over. 

During dinner, the LSA seemed to be working her tail off. For a while, the cafe attendant was helping, and then the sleeping car attendants were helping. Our train is not full, but they seem to be short staffed. My sleeping car attendant has 2 cars.


----------



## lordsigma

pennyk said:


> The passengers at the table next to me during dinner had the beef and said it was OK. It smelled pretty good. At another table, one woman had the beef, that she liked and another woman had the chicken fettuccini, which she did not like.
> 
> I learned that if the crew wants a flex dining meal for lunch or dinner, it will cost them $25 each meal. They are alloted a certain per diem amount, but 3 meals would put them over. [emoji20]
> 
> During dinner, the LSA seemed to be working her tail off. For a while, the cafe attendant was helping, and then the sleeping car attendants were helping. Our train is not full, but they seem to be short staffed. My sleeping car attendant has 2 cars.



I heard that approximately a third of the affected employees were furloughed (I believe the mica language prohibits them from outright terminating employees in meeting the F&B mandate.) For the rest some got the single remaining LSA job in the diners, and others were offered other open OBS positions (LSA, SCA, coach attendant, etc) - I believe even the LSA diner position was reclassified so I don’t know if all the LSAs in the former model just got this position or if everyone was put into the pool and they awarded the LSAs by seniority. The star eventually getting this program should add another few LSA positions which should help out another few furloughed employees if they are still in furloughed status and accept.


----------



## Barb Stout

Amtrakfflyer said:


> “Remind me again--how close is Lou Mitchells to the Chicago Amtrak station? 'Cause that is where I'll be heading for breakfast next time I take the train there.) “
> 
> 
> Took the Zypher home on Sunday Chi-GBB no meal served so we got a pizza across the street from Union Station at Beggars Pizza and brought it onboard. Highly recommend the deep dish on par with Giordono’s or Lou Malnoti’s literally right across the street on Clinton Street.
> 
> The only nice thing about the Flex dining is the free drinks are back. Had our pizza in the SSL but had to pay 6 bucks for sodas. We usually take the SWC that leaves 40 mins later and includes dinner.


Mitchells is about 1/2 block away from the Chicago Amtrak station. I ate there on our last train trip and did not care for it, but to each her own.


----------



## tim49424

Barb Stout said:


> Mitchells is about 1/2 block away from the Chicago Amtrak station. I ate there on our last train trip and did not care for it, but to each her own.



I ate there once and thought it was pretty good. I’d eat there again.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Lou Mitchell’s is my go to place for breakfast.
It’s a 2 blocks from the Canal street entrance to Union Station. 1/2 block to Jackson, right onto Jackson then 1-1/2 blocks.


----------



## pennyk

There is a great deal of disappointment among passengers and crew with the flex dining. I had a breakfast sandwich this morning (after removing the sausage) and it was edible. Again, I am sitting in the sleeper lounge, which I find very comfortable. Flex dining has created an increased burden on SCAs (those that have not been furloughed).


----------



## mainemanman

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s dinner. The potatoes don’t resemble potatoes in taste or texture. The beef is... ok?
> 
> Was told I would just go to the diner and give my room number when I was ready to eat.... but then at 6:00 my attendant came with my meal and said “they made your food so I brought it to you” - I think that’s just confusion cause of the first day but I really wanted to eat in the diner and a bit later. On the plus side, they brought a little table cloth for my roomette table. Also brought a Brownie and a roll, neither of which I can eat, even though I ordered a meal which is listed as gluten free.
> 
> Oh yeah... and the only salad dressing option is Heinz ranch served in ketchup size packets. Keeps getting better and better.


I have to say, I actually liked the similar option on the LSL with beans, potatoes, carrots and beef. Only issue is that they didn't serve a roll with it. But the dessert is fine, drinks are fine too


----------



## crescent-zephyr

My sleeper attendant on the meteor was a 30+ year dining car server on Amtrak. She started on the Broadway Limoted! It was one of her first runs as a sleeper attendant and she was just fantastic. I’m glad she got to keep her job with Amtrak... she’s up there with the legendary Gul as one of Amtrak’s best (are we allowed to name good sca’s or will that be edited out? Time will tell....). 

Since I wasn’t about to tip someone for handing me a yogurt and not even trying to be friendly I tipped my SCA what I would usually tip my sca AND dining car staff. I mean she took my order, brought me an extra drink, and brought me my dinner. For lunch the other SCA on the train brought me my lunch.


----------



## pennyk

The LSA on the Silver Meteor was told by her managers that she is not permitted to sit at any of the tables in the sleeper lounge and that all tables are reserved for sleeper passengers. Between assisting passengers, she is sitting on what looks like an uncomfortable box in the kitchen area.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

mainemanman said:


> But the dessert is fine,



It’s not fine for me since I can’t eat it. The previous dining car menu had a gluten free option for dessert.


----------



## mainemanman

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s not fine for me since I can’t eat it. The previous dining car menu had a gluten free option for dessert.



Seems odd they don't. That sucks, hopefully it is implemented in the future.


----------



## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> The LSA on the Silver Meteor was told by her managers that she is not permitted to sit at any of the tables in the sleeper lounge and that all tables are reserved for sleeper passengers. Between assisting passengers, she is sitting on what looks like an uncomfortable box in the kitchen area.


Last Fall when I rode the Lake Shore and the Cap when they started serving Version One the " New and Contemporary" Boxed Meals, the LSAs and SCAs told us they weren't allowed to eat them, so the Crew had to either bring their food and Drink or else Pay for the Gas Station style stuff Sold in the Cafe.

That sounds pretty bad for those who spend their working life aboard Long Distance Trains, where's the Union on this??


----------



## me_little_me

On the Crescent that left NOL on Oct 1 although we got on in GRV. 

Breakfast was gross. What a comedown!

Worst tasting muffins I've ever had. I never eat packaged muffins and now I remember why. I'd rather have a day-old muffin from a grocery store than one of these. The grocery one may taste a little stale or dried out but it wouldn't taste that artificial. Worse was the Amtrak version of an egg McMuffin. Microwaved bread tastes and has the mouth feel of rubber and these were so bad! The bananas were long past their prime with little edible banana. If you don't know to ask for butter or the fruit cup, you don't get them. Not sure if the strange taste in the fruit cup was due to a sweetener added or a preservative to make it look fresh longer like a little lemon would do.
Then there was the server. "We're having a brief lunch so you have to come now" as we were almost to Washington. So we went and asked "Can we wait a bit so we can stretch our legs in Washington?" "NO" she said. "Now or you are out of luck. Just then we stopped in DC to change to the electric engines so the power went off. She couldn't cook our orders! So we asked again and promised to be back as soon as power was restored. "No" she said. We told her to bring our orders to our table when they were ready and got up and stepped outside. Got back even before power was restored. BTW, her reasoning was that service had to be ended by Trenton. We arrived in Trenton nearly 2 hours later! And there were only about 6 of us in total at lunch in the diner.

I do have to admit the shrimp/sausage/rice meal was good (I don't eat shrimp so I gave them to my wife) although the vegetables were almost invisible. Salad is much smaller than the old way. Only 2 choices instead of 5-6 for the dressing. Same old packaged roll and have to ask for the butter. Packaged brownies were decent but don't hold a candle to desserts used in the past. Oh, those free soft drinks? They were out of diet Pepsi. No diet drinks at all.

Seems like the one free alcohol drink means just that. She asked if we had a drink the dinner prior but we had boarded (1 1/2 hours late) at 12:15AM so I assume she meant "If you had one yesterday, you don't get one today!"

One saving grace. Our H room had no A/C so I couldn't sleep. Went into Diner where it was cool at 4:30AM and sat up for a while before trying to get back to sleep. Then got up again at 6AM to do the same. she was readying breakfast and offered it to me but I told her I would wait until my wife got up and just wanted to sit a while. she nicely offered (and I accepted) a fresh cup of coffee.

I sent feedback to Amtrak about the H room problem. I'll follow up with a call when we get back if I don't hear from them before then. I didn't want to have my opinion of the "Fresh Choices" be a part of that issue. That letter will go out after we get back and experience NYP to GRV (dinner only) as well.


----------



## tonys96

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s breakfast. Amtrak crew is sitting at the “buffet table” so you awkwardly get your coffee creamer, etc. while they are just sitting there.
> 
> Lsa has a tip jar out of course.
> 
> Oh and iced coffee is no longer on the “flex” dining menu (it was on the original contemporary dining menus).


 
Worse than the "free" breakfast at low end motels, like econo lodge.


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> Last Fall when I rode the Lake Shore and the Cap when they started serving Version One the " New and Contemporary" Boxed Meals, the LSAs and SCAs told us they weren't allowed to eat them, so the Crew had to either bring their food and Drink or else Pay for the Gas Station style stuff Sold in the Cafe.
> 
> That sounds pretty bad for those who spend their working life aboard Long Distance Trains, where's the Union on this??


From what I understand now on the Meteor, crew members can purchase either breakfast, lunch or diner meals from the LSA in the sleeper lounge. Most feel that it is not worth the cost and are bringing their own food. One SCA got off the train in WPB and ran inside the station and bought a sandwich. She said she could not afford the prices for the "tray" meals. I am guessing that some got off in Orlando and bought food at the hot dog stand.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Confined working environment of a length of time covering several meal periods.

Amtrak will not provide meals under these conditions?

Ineffective union yes, but a Employer who does not care about the employees.

Our world not getting better.


----------



## tricia

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Confined working environment of a length of time covering several meal periods.
> 
> Amtrak will not provide meals under these conditions?
> 
> Ineffective union yes, but a Employer who does not care about the employees.
> 
> Our world not getting better.



Agree. When folks come to do work at our HOUSE I feed them lunch, since we're pretty remote--and those folks go home at the end of the day. I can't imagine having staff working away from a kitchen or restaurant for days on end, and not offering to feed them.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> My sleeper attendant on the meteor was a 30+ year dining car server on Amtrak. She started on the Broadway Limoted! It was one of her first runs as a sleeper attendant and she was just fantastic. I’m glad she got to keep her job with Amtrak... she’s up there with the legendary Gul as one of Amtrak’s best (are we allowed to name good sca’s or will that be edited out? Time will tell....).
> 
> Since I wasn’t about to tip someone for handing me a yogurt and not even trying to be friendly I tipped my SCA what I would usually tip my sca AND dining car staff. I mean she took my order, brought me an extra drink, and brought me my dinner. For lunch the other SCA on the train brought me my lunch.



Which train were you on and did she say which train she was a server on?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I was on the north bound meteor. She said she started on the broadway limited, but had been working the meteor.


----------



## dande

Don't know who the sea or .Lca are but there were a lot of staff hanging in the sleeper lounge on the meteor Wednesday. Do people normally tip the cabin attendant up front or at the end?


----------



## tricia

dande said:


> Don't know who the sea or .Lca are but there were a lot of staff hanging in the sleeper lounge on the meteor Wednesday. Do people normally tip the cabin attendant up front or at the end?



Some folks on this board do it one way, some another, and when the service is awful at least some of us don't tip at all. Personally, I think tipping in advance feels too much like a bribe, rather than a reward for exceptional service. All Amtrak staff are paid with a decent wage and benefits package and, although sleeping car attendants (SCAs) and dining car staff appreciate tips, they don't rely on tips to bring them up to minimum wage.

You'll find MANY threads on this site about tipping, a hot topic here with a wide range of opinion on it.


----------



## OBS

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Confined working environment of a length of time covering several meal periods.
> 
> Amtrak will not provide meals under these conditions?
> 
> Ineffective union yes, but a Employer who does not care about the employees.
> 
> Our world not getting better.


Before everyone gets too excited, Per the OBS contract, if meals are not provided in the Dining Car, employees are paid a per diem reimbursement for each meal period they work and are not provided meals. Most employees, given the option of eating the same food over and over, week after week, would prefer the reimbursement and will plan their own meals accordingly.


----------



## Dakota 400

tonys96 said:


> Worse than the "free" breakfast at low end motels, like econo lodge.



I have experienced that type of breakfast in the past. The first time, I thought it was a "one off" experience because of the general condition of the property. The second time (at a different brand, but the same chain), much the same type of breakfast. That's why I no longer patronize that entire chain of hotels.


----------



## Dakota 400

Probably an ignorant question on my part, but why ought a SCA be expected to assist a LSA in the Sleeper Lounge? Are job descriptions on Amtrak that flexible?


----------



## Rail Freak

Dakota 400 said:


> Probably an ignorant question on my part, but why ought a SCA be expected to assist a LSA in the Sleeper Lounge? Are job descriptions on Amtrak that flexible?


I would think in a situation like that, if the SCA didnt help, the job wouldnt get done properly which affects the tips!?


----------



## pennyk

OBS said:


> Before everyone gets too excited, Per the OBS contract, if meals are not provided in the Dining Car, employees are paid a per diem reimbursement for each meal period they work and are not provided meals. Most employees, given the option of eating the same food over and over, week after week, would prefer the reimbursement and will plan their own meals accordingly.



I was informed by more than one OBS that the per diem reimburement is considerably less than the amount it would cost to buy 3 flex meals (breakfast, lunch and dinner).


----------



## OBS

pennyk said:


> I was informed by more than one OBS that the per diem reimburement is considerably less than the amount it would cost to buy 3 flex meals (breakfast, lunch and dinner).


Absolutely true. However, if they were totally honest with you, they would, in most cases, prefer the cash and make their own arrangements for meals, trust me. It is no different than how it is currently handled on 91/92.


----------



## Anderson

I mean, if they could find a cooperative restaurant in Orlando or Jacksonville there's no reason the crew couldn't arrange a regular delivery schedule for themselves from a restaurant.

Reading the reviews above, breakfast sounds like the dumpster fire I was expecting to hear about (for that, I think I'll just go back to packing MREs or sleeping in; at least the MRE sausage patty is pretty good). Everything else was a mess, but at the Springhill Suites I spent Wednesday night at in Baltimore, grabbing some ham and havarti at the free breakfast setup was perfectly fine.

The lunch/dinner part of things seems passable.

Based on the "crew charge" of $25, it seems like Amtrak is going to be able to smile-and-nod breakfast and lunch charges from $10-15 up to $25 for those meals (dinner being more of a wash).


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

tonys96 said:


> Worse than the "free" breakfast at low end motels, like econo lodge.



Just as I feared. 

Maybe, instead of taking the train, I can start to look into intercity stage coaches.


----------



## jebr

tonys96 said:


> Worse than the "free" breakfast at low end motels, like econo lodge.



I believe there's also a few other options not pictured, like a muffin, fruit cup, and sausage muffin sandwich. If it's similar to the contemporary dining back in March on the LSL, I'd consider it slightly better than an Econo Lodge or Super 8 breakfast (at least based on my stays there.) Definitely not as good as even a Hampton or Holiday Inn Express breakfast, though.

You'd think that Amtrak could at least offer something on par with a $100ish/night hotel room for breakfast, instead of skimping out to the $50-$60/night hotel room level...


----------



## lordsigma

I wonder what gets better reviews, the current continental model or the original sugar box?


----------



## jis

jebr said:


> I believe there's also a few other options not pictured, like a muffin, fruit cup, and sausage muffin sandwich. If it's similar to the contemporary dining back in March on the LSL, I'd consider it slightly better than an Econo Lodge or Super 8 breakfast (at least based on my stays there.) Definitely not as good as even a Hampton or Holiday Inn Express breakfast, though.
> 
> You'd think that Amtrak could at least offer something on par with a $100ish/night hotel room for breakfast, instead of skimping out to the $50-$60/night hotel room level...


I can see why they may shy away from serving scrambled eggs and bacon strips. But they could make up for it by including something like a breakfast burrito to deliver a scrambled egg and bacon option. Similarly reheatd waffles, while not as good as the freshly made ones, are usually not all that bad, and many use it at home too. So I think significant improvements can be made to the breakfast even within the constraints of staffing and delivery method chosen.

Of course ideally, they could follow the airline First Class example and include a couple of plated items delivered like dinner items are delivered. The current breakfast setup is more akin to how for purchase items are delivered for Coach snack setup in US domestic carriers


----------



## Notelvis

tonys96 said:


> Worse than the "free" breakfast at low end motels, like econo lodge.



YES! I have said this several times - Even a mediocre Quality Inn puts out a breakfast spread with two or three hot options though I do suppose it is not a good idea for half awake people to try using a waffle iron on a moving train.


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## neroden

The current "breakfast" is flatly unacceptable. It has the same problem as before: every single item is sugar loaded, even the bread in the reheated sandwich, even the oatmeal. They even stopped carrying the eggs. I am temporarily on a sugar restricted diet. There was nothing edible. Nobody with diabetes can eat anything.

I had a better breakfast at an extremely plain Choice Hotels buffet. Plain instant oatmeal and hard boiled eggs from a package. I will start carrying my own instant oatmeal and see if I can get hot water in the cafe.

This is pretty much a recipe for lowering ridership and revenue, and the ridership and financial damage is already visible. A conspiracy theorist would suggest that the Eastern long distance trains were too successful, too popular, too profitable, and someone had told Mr Anderson to trash service, Penn Central style, to drive away customers. Because if your intention was to drive away customers and reduce revenue, this is what you would do. Amtrak could provide a better selection of real food more cheaply than the candided garbage they are supplying.


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## neroden

Anderson said:


> I mean, if they could find a cooperative restaurant in Orlando or Jacksonville there's no reason the crew couldn't arrange a regular delivery schedule for themselves from a restaurant.
> 
> Reading the reviews above, breakfast sounds like the dumpster fire I was expecting to hear about (for that, I think I'll just go back to packing MREs or sleeping in; at least the MRE sausage patty is pretty good). Everything else was a mess, but at the Springhill Suites I spent Wednesday night at in Baltimore, grabbing some ham and havarti at the free breakfast setup was perfectly fine.
> 
> The lunch/dinner part of things seems passable.
> 
> Based on the "crew charge" of $25, it seems like Amtrak is going to be able to smile-and-nod breakfast and lunch charges from $10-15 up to $25 for those meals (dinner being more of a wash).



Sounds like accounting fraud to me. With the old system, Amtrak assigned the price of what the sleeper passenger actually bought to the F&B line. With the sugarbomb buffet "breakfast", they are apparently no longer tracking whether anyone actually takes the meals -- no ticket tracking what food I took. If they assign part of my ticket price to the meals which I don't eat, that is just fraudulent accounting. If that's how Anderson plans to make F&B "profitable" he might as well supply us with decent food, since he can fraudulently assign arbitrary amounts of ticket revenue to it.


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## Anderson

neroden said:


> Sounds like accounting fraud to me. With the old system, Amtrak assigned the price of what the sleeper passenger actually bought to the F&B line. With the sugarbomb buffet "breakfast", they are apparently no longer tracking whether anyone actually takes the meals -- no ticket tracking what food I took. If they assign part of my ticket price to the meals which I don't eat, that is just fraudulent accounting. If that's how Anderson plans to make F&B "profitable" he might as well supply us with decent food, since he can fraudulently assign arbitrary amounts of ticket revenue to it.


Oh, ot sounds pretty close to that to me as well. I think this is a case of "malicious compliance" by structurally defeating existing controls. I'm not going to lie, I can NOT blame Anderson for that much.


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## Anderson

neroden said:


> The current "breakfast" is flatly unacceptable. It has the same problem as before: every single item is sugar loaded, even the bread in the reheated sandwich, even the oatmeal. They even stopped carrying the eggs. I am temporarily on a sugar restricted diet. There was nothing edible. Nobody with diabetes can eat anything.
> 
> I had a better breakfast at an extremely plain Choice Hotels buffet. Plain instant oatmeal and hard boiled eggs from a package. I will start carrying my own instant oatmeal and see if I can get hot water in the cafe.
> 
> This is pretty much a recipe for lowering ridership and revenue, and the ridership and financial damage is already visible. A conspiracy theorist would suggest that the Eastern long distance trains were too successful, too popular, too profitable, and someone had told Mr Anderson to trash service, Penn Central style, to drive away customers. Because if your intention was to drive away customers and reduce revenue, this is what you would do. Amtrak could provide a better selection of real food more cheaply than the candided garbage they are supplying.



Honestly, I'd like to see a bunch of us on the platform at JAX one morning heating MREs. The optics would be classic.


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## ehbowen

Anderson said:


> Honestly, I'd like to see a bunch of us on the platform at JAX one morning heating MREs. The optics would be classic.



Maybe AmtrakUnlimited ought to solicit advertising from MRE Depot....


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## jiml

Notelvis said:


> I do suppose it is not a good idea for half awake people to try using a waffle iron on a moving train.


Based on how that often goes at a Hampton/Fairfield/Drury, etc., you're right!


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## Anderson

ehbowen said:


> Maybe AmtrakUnlimited ought to solicit advertising from MRE Depot....


It would beat all these stupid "Should Trump fight big pharma to release [blah]? Yes/Don't Know" ads that keep popping up.


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## AUAdmin

Anderson said:


> It would beat all these stupid "Should Trump fight big pharma to release [blah]? Yes/Don't Know" ads that keep popping up.



Click on little man icon.
Choose preferences
bottom of page




remember to save.


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## OBS

Angie said:


> Click on little man icon.
> Choose preferences
> bottom of page
> 
> View attachment 15317
> 
> 
> remember to save.


Wonderful, thanks!


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## Anderson

Done.


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## seat38a

Bob Dylan said:


> Last Fall when I rode the Lake Shore and the Cap when they started serving Version One the " New and Contemporary" Boxed Meals, the LSAs and SCAs told us they weren't allowed to eat them, so the Crew had to either bring their food and Drink or else Pay for the Gas Station style stuff Sold in the Cafe.
> 
> That sounds pretty bad for those who spend their working life aboard Long Distance Trains, where's the Union on this??


Probably better for their health and waistline to bring their own.



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Confined working environment of a length of time covering several meal periods.
> 
> Amtrak will not provide meals under these conditions?
> 
> Ineffective union yes, but a Employer who does not care about the employees.
> 
> Our world not getting better.


Even airlines like Lufthansa in a country with pretty good union representation do not get free meals. They have to order it and pay for it if they want meals provided.


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## jis

Over and over again I find that American Union requirements are often way more onerous than those in countries that are supposed to be hamstrung by Unions. This strange contradiction has fascinated me for a while.

Indian Railways for example, which is as unionized with a very militant Union (AIRF) as can be, seems to have relatively little problem contracting out OBS on select trains. Part of the reason may be historical, in the sense that OBS was never considered to be a core competence of the railways anyway. They provided it on some prestige trains, and they shed it as fast as they could into a subsidiary.


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## Barb Stout

Qapla said:


> It would not take any additional staff if there were adequate vending machines onboard the train for snack and drink items. Today's vending machines are very flexible/capable/reliable and take various means of payment.


Just last night I tried to get something from one of these fancy vending machines. It spent over a minute trying to authorize my cc when I decided that this method wasn't going to be fruitful, so I tried to cancel so I could try with cash. But no, it took just as long to cancel. I gave up and walked away while it was still cancelling, so maybe it's still trying to cancel it. If they're all like that, some hangry people are going to take care of those machines in real short order. I was hangry and was highly tempted to retrieve my husband's bass clarinet holder (heavy and dense metal) to take care of the machine, but didn't have the energy or strength.


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## Winecliff Station

Anderson said:


> Honestly, I'd like to see a bunch of us on the platform at JAX one morning heating MREs. The optics would be classic.



That would save a lot of space on the train....because then you could get rid of half the bathrooms.


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## Winecliff Station

So the word is that the ship gets in at 7am, so I tried to move us to the Meteor. Got the red exclamation point because I’m 300 points short for the difference, so I shared 1000 points from hubby’s account. Now the award price went up another 6k points. I’m sorry, but we’re talking a 10k difference ($200) from the Starve, which seems like a lot for free TV dinners and an eight hour earlier arrival, especially after checking in on this thread.

I think I’m going to just sulk into my mojito right now while I wait for Movie Theme Trivia to start.


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## Anderson

Winecliff Station said:


> So the word is that the ship gets in at 7am, so I tried to move us to the Meteor. Got the red exclamation point because I’m 300 points short for the difference, so I shared 1000 points from hubby’s account. Now the award price went up another 6k points. I’m sorry, but we’re talking a 10k difference ($200) from the Starve, which seems like a lot for free TV dinners and an eight hour earlier arrival, especially after checking in on this thread.
> 
> I think I’m going to just sulk into my mojito right now while I wait for Movie Theme Trivia to start.


Check back. Sometimes it falls right back to where it was...


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## Winecliff Station

Anderson said:


> Check back. Sometimes it falls right back to where it was...



Well we just won Movie theme trivia so I’m feeling lucky.......


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## pennyk

I am on the Silver Meteor now and, for most passengers, this is the first time they are experiencing flex dining. The reviews are mainly negative (except for the 7 year old who really liked the pasta and meatballs and really really liked the brownie). The reviews on the polenta are pretty negative although many thought the beef dish was tasty (but were not happy with the amount of sodium). The reviews of shrimp and sausage were "OK." In general, passengers thought they were eating a tv dinner.

There are 3 managers from the Miami crew base on the train and are doing their best to help out. The LSA is being run ragged. He is doing the work of 3.

The chef that was on the train during my trip a few weeks ago is now a coach attendant. She recognized me and knew my name. 
My SCA is a coach attendant that is subbing for an SCA that is on vacation.

I heard that it is possible that if and when the Silver Star starts flex dining next year, the sleeper meals will be served out of the cafe car and not out of a Viewliner 2 diner.


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## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> I am on the Silver Meteor now and, for most passengers, this is the first time they are experiencing flex dining. The reviews are mainly negative (except for the 7 year old who really liked the pasta and meatballs and really really liked the brownie). The reviews on the polenta are pretty negative although many thought the beef dish was tasty (but were not happy with the amount of sodium). The reviews of shrimp and sausage were "OK." In general, passengers thought they were eating a tv dinner.
> 
> There are 3 managers from the Miami crew base on the train and are doing their best to help out. The LSA is being run ragged. He is doing the work of 3.
> 
> The chef that was on the train during my trip a few weeks ago is now a coach attendant. She recognized me and knew my name.
> My SCA is a coach attendant that is subbing for an SCA that is on vacation.
> 
> I heard that it is possible that if and when the Silver Star starts flex dining next year, the sleeper meals will be served out of the cafe car and not out of a Viewliner 2 diner.


Thanks Penny! Doesnt sound promising for the Silver Trains!( glad the Crew members kept their jobs! )Can the Auto- Train be next???


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## Anderson

Bob Dylan said:


> Thanks Penny! Doesnt sound promising for the Silver Trains!( glad the Crew members kept their jobs! )Can the Auto- Train be next???


The Auto Train is being screwed around with in a different way (cutting diner access for coach pax come 1/15). Reading what's on Anderson's mind (always scary), it seems that he's trying to make the Auto Train sleeper experience a "proper" premium experience vs the coach experience.


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## Just-Thinking-51

> In general, passengers thought they were eating a tv dinner.



Which they are, with a side salad.



> There are 3 managers from the Miami crew base on the train and are doing their best to help out. The LSA is being run ragged. He is doing the work of 3.



That nice, but the next train not going to have any managers so then what?



> I heard that it is possible that if and when the Silver Star starts flex dining next year, the sleeper meals will be served out of the cafe car and not out of a Viewliner 2 diner.



I would hope not, those Viewliners 2 Diners are expensive wheel count cars.


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## Just-Thinking-51

> Reading what's on Anderson's mind (always scary), it seems that he's trying to make the Auto Train sleeper experience a "proper" premium experience vs the coach experience.



So a “proper” premium service is food service, not the bed with a shower?
I want better food if it going to be a “proper” premium service.


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## Anderson

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So a “proper” premium service is food service, not the bed with a shower?
> I want better food if it going to be a “proper” premium service.


I think the case would be that it is both (after all, Amtrak is offering sleeper service with mediocre-at-best food on a number of eastern trains). Amtrak has said they're going to improve the cafe offerings for coach pax to a "cross country cafe"; we'll see how this goes, given the whole food truck sideshow (which is problematic if only because buying food at 1500 to eat at 1900 doesn't feel like a winning proposition).

The question is what happens to the F&B for sleeper pax after 1/15...and I can't give you a clear guess there.


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## lordsigma

Anderson said:


> The question is what happens to the F&B for sleeper pax after 1/15...and I can't give you a clear guess there.


It isn’t going to be flex dining. They are going to continue to have the same crew for the sleeper dining car. What the menu looks like who knows but will still have a Chef.


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## lordsigma

pennyk said:


> I heard that it is possible that if and when the Silver Star starts flex dining next year, the sleeper meals will be served out of the cafe car and not out of a Viewliner 2 diner.


If they did that they would be reneging on one of the selling points which is supposed to be a private lounge area for sleeper passengers. I honestly don’t see how the cafe car attendant can handle serving the flex meals as well as doing the Normal cafe work - it seems the LSA in the VL2 diners is overworked enough as it is. Hopefully that turns out to be fake news.


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## pennyk

lordsigma said:


> If they did that they would be reneging on one of the selling points which is supposed to be a private lounge area for sleeper passengers. I honestly don’t see how the cafe car attendant can handle serving the flex meals as well as doing the Normal cafe work - it seems the LSA in the VL2 diners is overworked enough as it is. Hopefully that turns out to be fake news.


I, too, hope that the news is inaccurate. I heard there would be 2 attendants in the cafe car. One for flex dining and one for cafe.


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## Rasputin

It seems like this transition period is a very poor time to be travelling as a sleeper passenger on Amtrak's eastern trains. It sounds like it is the beginning of the end. It will be interesting to see if it gets straightened out in the next few months when we have our next trip. Perhaps the decline will flat-line by then.


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## Palmetto

Here's my take on the changing of the dining experience: it's a giant case of unmet expectations, and that always results in angst in us humans--some, more than others. [No, I'm not a psychologist, but I've been around long enough to know better.]


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## KiraPi

I took my very first long distance trip between NYC and Chicago this past weekend. I took the Capitol Limited and the Cardinal. 
I tried the shrimp & sausage, twice, and the chicken fettuccine once. I have to say, I'm not a fan of the food. It wasn't the worst thing ever only because I've had a variety of different microwaved meals before. Microwaved pasta just isn't good. It turns the pasta into a sticky block and the cheesy sauce starts to separate and get grainy. The shrimp & sausage was a little better but it's still a microwaved meal. As for breakfast, it was at least a nice break from the microwaved stuff. I'm not much of a breakfast person but I did grab a muffin and a banana just for a change of pace. 
I'm sad to have missed the real food they used to serve. Even the car attendant isn't a fan. She suggested I try it and complain if I didn't care for it. I might do just that.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

KiraPi said:


> I took my very first long distance trip between NYC and Chicago this past weekend. I took the Capitol Limited and the Cardinal.
> I tried the shrimp & sausage, twice, and the chicken fettuccine once. I have to say, I'm not a fan of the food. It wasn't the worst thing ever only because I've had a variety of different microwaved meals before. Microwaved pasta just isn't good. It turns the pasta into a sticky block and the cheesy sauce starts to separate and get grainy. The shrimp & sausage was a little better but it's still a microwaved meal. As for breakfast, it was at least a nice break from the microwaved stuff. I'm not much of a breakfast person but I did grab a muffin and a banana just for a change of pace.
> I'm sad to have missed the real food they used to serve. Even the car attendant isn't a fan. She suggested I try it and complain if I didn't care for it. I might do just that.



It wasn’t microwaved. They use a convection oven.


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## crescent-zephyr

AmtrakBlue said:


> It wasn’t microwaved. They use a convection oven.



While technically correct, It really does taste and look like a microwaved meal.


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## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> While technically correct, It really does taste and look like a microwaved meal.


Agreed. How you heat these meals doesn't change the ingredients or improve the freshness or make it taste any better. Microwaves have a bad reputation because they're mainly used to reheat low quality freezer food. If you put fresh high quality food in a microwave, and heat it with a bit of care, it can actually taste pretty good.


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## Mystic River Dragon

If the dining car is being used as a lounge for sleeper passengers as well, are you allowed to:

1. Buy something in the cafe car and bring it into the dining car to eat?
2. Bring something from outside and bring it into the dining car to eat?

For example, if I got on the Meteor in Philly around dinner time, could I get a veggie burger from the cafe and eat it in the dining car? Or get something really good from one of the many fine dining establishments in Philly and bring it on board and eat it in the dining car?

Or would I have to just have an early meal in Philly before boarding if I don't want the flexible garbage in the dining car?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Mystic River Dragon said:


> If the dining car is being used as a lounge for sleeper passengers as well, are you allowed to:
> 
> 1. Buy something in the cafe car and bring it into the dining car to eat?
> 2. Bring something from outside and bring it into the dining car to eat?
> 
> For example, if I got on the Meteor in Philly around dinner time, could I get a veggie burger from the cafe and eat it in the dining car? Or get something really good from one of the many fine dining establishments in Philly and bring it on board and eat it in the dining car?
> 
> Or would I have to just have an early meal in Philly before boarding if I don't want the flexible garbage in the dining car?



I don't think there would be any problem with bringing in food from the cafe car. If you brought in a full meal someone might say something... but they may not? For what it's worth I saw employees bring their own food into the sleeper lounge and eat it.


----------



## TEREB

Winecliff Station said:


> So the word is that the ship gets in at 7am, so I tried to move us to the Meteor. Got the red exclamation point because I’m 300 points short for the difference, so I shared 1000 points from hubby’s account. Now the award price went up another 6k points. I’m sorry, but we’re talking a 10k difference ($200) from the Starve, which seems like a lot for free TV dinners and an eight hour earlier arrival, especially after checking in on this thread.
> 
> I think I’m going to just sulk into my mojito right now while I wait for Movie Theme Trivia to start.



just a heads up. Do yourself a favor and download Mobile Passport, if you haven’t already done so. Saves a heap of time going through customs. They have their own line. I’ve kissed that app more than once.


----------



## jis

I believe that what happens to on board food service 2020 onward depends entirely on what is stated about it in the 2020 Authorization Bill. This is the time to start campaigning with your representatives on this matter. Amtrak management will do whatever it is told to do. Past experience shows that even if some specific regime at Amtrak takes some initiative to improve things, those improvements do not last unless they are grounded in what Authorization Bills say.


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## Winecliff Station

TEREB said:


> just a heads up. Do yourself a favor and download Mobile Passport, if you haven’t already done so. Saves a heap of time going through customs. They have their own line. I’ve kissed that app more than once.



Thanks! I think they’re having us do customs the day before at Key West but it can’t help to be prepared


----------



## OBS

AmtrakBlue said:


> It wasn’t microwaved. They use a convection oven.


We assume it was.....


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## KiraPi

AmtrakBlue said:


> It wasn’t microwaved. They use a convection oven.


It looked like a microwave, it sounded like a microwave, the food tasted like it came from a microwave. What's the difference?


----------



## JRR

neroden said:


> Sounds like accounting fraud to me. With the old system, Amtrak assigned the price of what the sleeper passenger actually bought to the F&B line. With the sugarbomb buffet "breakfast", they are apparently no longer tracking whether anyone actually takes the meals -- no ticket tracking what food I took. If they assign part of my ticket price to the meals which I don't eat, that is just fraudulent accounting. If that's how Anderson plans to make F&B "profitable" he might as well supply us with decent food, since he can fraudulently assign arbitrary amounts of ticket revenue to it.



At the risk of endlessly repeating myself, I have pointed out numerous times the fallacy of counting as revenue, what the sleeper passenger actually ordered/ate.

You pay for the potential meals when you buy the ticket. The amount credited to F&B is the revenue but it does not appear that this is being done.

You are correct that this can be an arbitrary amount, thus AMTRACK has control over the revenue side to show profit or loss.

Without showing the revenue side, no proper accounting or analysis of the F&B operations can ever be made.

Cutting costs w/o revenue methodology is smoke and mirrors!


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## dlagrua

Recent trip to Seattle on American Airlines for family business. Can't say that this meal was great but tasty and better than the boxed stuff now being pushed on the sleeper passengers. It was marinated Chicken breast, w Couscous salad, Artichoke olives with pita bread and hummus. Desert was ice cream with Baileys Irish Cream and your choice of toppings w whipped cream. Why cannot Amtrak at least meet this low standard?


----------



## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> It seems like this transition period is a very poor time to be travelling as a sleeper passenger on Amtrak's eastern trains. It sounds like it is the beginning of the end. It will be interesting to see if it gets straightened out in the next few months when we have our next trip. Perhaps the decline will flat-line by then.


I think the affect this will have on the trains' future is overstated. Will some people stop riding as a result? Sure, but I would argue that some of those who do probably prefer air travel (or car travel) over rail travel anyway. To me, there is so much more to to the train travel experience than the dining car- and you can still hang out in the dining car and socialize if you want. While I enjoy going to the dining car and eating, for me the food itself has always been just ok (I am younger and never rode in the grand days of true dining car meals.) I'm disappointed but not surprised by the change, but so long as the food is at least ok I will deal with it. Don't get me wrong I'd like to see them make more improvements to this to make it more acceptable, but I won't stop riding the train over the food. There's simply too much more about riding the train I like (plus the fact I don't fly.) The Silver Star survived losing the dining car, so will these trains with flex dining. And many people have complained about the CONO and Cardinal food for years so for those two trains its basically status quo. I do think they need to look long and hard about what to do for the western trains because I don't think this particular model would do well there (and I think those trains would stand to lose more ridership if they severely downgraded the F*B.) I'm not convinced they are simply going to apply this model to the western trains - they may make some changes to try to "modernize" it and satisfy the mandate, but I'm pretty sure it will look differently than what they're doing here. I don't know that I believe the rumors that this is going system wide in a year and a half. Sure maybe some change will come in and a year and a half, but that doesn't mean they are simply going to copy and paste this over to the other trains. Rumors were saying that the Texas Eagle was one of the next trains to get downgraded, but that didn't happen.


----------



## tonys96

lordsigma said:


> I think the affect this will have on the trains' future is overstated. Will some people stop riding as a result? Sure, but I would argue that some of those who do probably prefer air travel (or car travel) over rail travel anyway. To me, there is so much more to to the train travel experience than the dining car- and you can still hang out in the dining car and socialize if you want. While I enjoy going to the dining car and eating, for me the food itself has always been just ok (I am younger and never rode in the grand days of true dining car meals.) I'm disappointed but not surprised by the change, but so long as the food is at least ok I will deal with it. Don't get me wrong I'd like to see them make more improvements to this to make it more acceptable, but I won't stop riding the train over the food. There's simply too much more about riding the train I like (plus the fact I don't fly.) The Silver Star survived losing the dining car, so will these trains with flex dining. And many people have complained about the CONO and Cardinal food for years so for those two trains its basically status quo. I do think they need to look long and hard about what to do for the western trains because I don't think this particular model would do well there (and I think those trains would stand to lose more ridership if they severely downgraded the F*B.) I'm not convinced they are simply going to apply this model to the western trains - they may make some changes to try to "modernize" it and satisfy the mandate, but I'm pretty sure it will look differently than what they're doing here. I don't know that I believe the rumors that this is going system wide in a year and a half. Sure maybe some change will come in and a year and a half, but that doesn't mean they are simply going to copy and paste this over to the other trains. Rumors were saying that the Texas Eagle was one of the next trains to get downgraded, but that didn't happen.


Yet.


----------



## Anderson

dlagrua said:


> Recent trip to Seattle on American Airlines for family business. Can't say that this meal was great but tasty and better than the boxed stuff now being pushed on the sleeper passengers. It was marinated Chicken breast, w Couscous salad, Artichoke olives with pita bread and hummus. Desert was ice cream with Baileys Irish Cream and your choice of toppings w whipped cream. Why cannot Amtrak at least meet this low standard?



Delta does some very good things on the main TCON pairs. I can't say that their offerings on some of the shorter pairs are amazing (and they sometimes run out of the better option, IMO) but they're better than nothing and I do legitimately enjoy getting a passable meal en route.

It says something, however, that at this point I can probably get a better meal RIC-JFK-MCO than RVR-ORL.


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## MARC Rider

I'm reserving my final word about this until I've had a chance to sample the meal service on my trip to the Gathering. (I'l be riding the Capitol out to Chicago and the Cardinal back home, so I get to sample 2 breakfasts and 4 lunch/dinners).

However, for all the moaning about reheated (by whatever method) precooked food, everyone should remember that even in the "golden age" of, say 10 years ago, nearly all the food in the Amtrak dining was precooked, and a lot of it was really tasty (remember those lamb shanks! and the short ribs! all precooked and reheated.) They also has some real nasty failures, even with traditional dining. I particularly remember a "braised beef" entree on the Southwest Chief back in 2015 that was dry, chewy, and undercooked (for braised beef.)

And , in fact, for most popularly-priced land-based dining, the food is precooked and reheated. The only places where you can get food cooked to order is either in small restaurants where the staff is overworked and underpaid (my daughter works in one, so I know), or really fancy fine dining establishments where the price of a full meal, including sales tax (but not tip) can run you $50 -$100 per person. Preparing the food in the cramped quarters of a moving train to a captive audience would result in such dining costing considerably more than that to the customers. If you want to add white glove service, be prepared to pay even more.

Let's face it, you want fresh cooked food, and you're not willing to cook it yourself, be prepared to pay through the nose. And don't expect to find it on a train, at least right now under the current political climate. Food service involving fresh cooked food on a train cannot pay for itself, it needs to be cross- subsidized. Maybe the Canadian political system can tolerate that for VIA, but in today's USA it's not going to fly for Amtrak.


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## jis

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/phot...o-save-the-old-one/ss-AAIx75a?ocid=spartandhp


----------



## Devil's Advocate

lordsigma said:


> I think the affect this will have on the trains' future is overstated. Will some people stop riding as a result? Sure, but I would argue that some of those who do probably prefer air travel (or car travel) over rail travel anyway.


Why would people who prefer air travel choose Amtrak LD service in the first place?



MARC Rider said:


> The only places where you can get food cooked to order is either in small restaurants where the staff is overworked and underpaid (my daughter works in one, so I know), or really fancy fine dining establishments where the price of a full meal, including sales tax (but not tip) can run you $50 -$100 per person.


When did "cause my daughter says so" become some sort of mike drop? I eat at "fancy" made-to-order restaurants all the time but the price per person almost never reaches $50+ unless we're drinking. Where I live those kinds of prices are generally limited to tourist traps and date night steak houses.



MARC Rider said:


> Preparing the food in the cramped quarters of a moving train to a captive audience would result in such dining costing considerably more than that to the customers. If you want to add white glove service, be prepared to pay even more.


So in your view our choices are limited to cheap pantry/freezer meals or white glove service with nothing in between?


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## lordsigma

Devil's Advocate said:


> Why would people who prefer air travel choose Amtrak LD service in the first place?


 I think there are a lot of people that like the train but also like the conveniences of flying (and I'm sure many people enjoy both equally for different reasons) and for some maybe the food changes make the train no longer worth it, and that's fine. But I guess my argument is, was the food really that great anyway where these changes negate all the other benefits of taking the train? (More relaxing trip, ability to get up and walk around wherever, scenery, comfort of a sleeper, etc.) And I don't think boycotting really does anything when you have a leadership that wouldn't mind just discontinuing the trains anyway. Just to clarify, I don't agree with the changes and I think the old model was better. But at the same time I don't necessarily think the end is coming for these trains either.


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## Winecliff Station

KiraPi said:


> It looked like a microwave, it sounded like a microwave, the food tasted like it came from a microwave. What's the difference?



If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck.....of course this is not to suggest Amtrak will ever be serving duck.


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## Anderson

Winecliff Station said:


> If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck.....of course this is not to suggest Amtrak will ever be serving duck.


Goose!


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## Ryan

Winecliff Station said:


> If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck.....of course this is not to suggest Amtrak will ever be serving duck.



Once we lived in a world where facts mattered. Now, perhaps not so much.


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## Dakota 400

Anderson said:


> Goose!





Anderson said:


> Goose!



I have enjoyed duck entrees. I once ordered goose. My digestive system was in full rebellion that night!


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## jiml

jis said:


> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/photos/i-tried-amtraks-new-contemporary-dining-car-—-and-it-was-immediately-clear-why-so-many-people-want-to-save-the-old-one/ss-AAIx75a?ocid=spartandhp


Interesting perspective from a millennial, not used to long-distance trains, etc. Fairly objective considering. Although there seems to be a debate whether they use convection ovens or microwaves, the writer seemed fairly certain. I'm starting to think both are in play. Those breakfast sandwiches are sold in large boxes by Costco and they are definitely microwaved - no heated oven option of any kind. Perhaps the dinner entrees are actually heated...


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## lordsigma

jiml said:


> Interesting perspective from a millennial, not used to long-distance trains, etc. Fairly objective considering. Although there seems to be a debate whether they use convection ovens or microwaves, the writer seemed fairly certain. I'm starting to think both are in play. Those breakfast sandwiches are sold in large boxes by Costco and they are definitely microwaved - no heated oven option of any kind. Perhaps the dinner entrees are actually heated...


I thought I had heard they were currently using a microwave and the plan was eventually overhaul the Viewliner 2 diners and replace the microwaves with large convection ovens. It seems like from Amtrak's letter to RPA that the process to install the ovens has been stalled, but that the executive leadership was going to push to get it done.


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## lordsigma

My biggest concern ridership wise is that a lot of the articles that have come out have actually incorrectly stated that Amtrak is removing the dining cars everywhere (And some even make it sound like they aren't even offering anything except the café car.) Many do not clarify that the two night trains are not affected by this change. I think the two night trains stand to lose a lot more ridership with a downgrade like that than do the single nights. I think the ratios between experiential travelers and people using the train for basic travel purposes varies between the two with the two night trains getting more of the former. I think Amtrak should be correcting some of these articles that haven't correctly reported the trains. I have seen where Peter Wilander's office has requested certain media stories to correct the record, but I think they need to address all of them.


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## Mystic River Dragon

I just read something titled "Amtrak's dining cars sad decline."

The interesting thing about it is not the content, but where it appeared.

The writer talks about the same things some of us do. She thinks, as some of us here do, that the real goal is to make Amtrak travel such a miserable experience that Congress will get rid of Amtrak completely. She also says that she had the food on a trip from New York to Chicago and that they were "barely edible microwave dinners."

Know where I read this? Not on a train discussion site, not online, not in a huge NYC or DC newspaper.

It was a printed letter to the editor in a local newspaper (Newark Star Ledger--not tiny, but not huge, either), where the letters are usually about local matters.

So the word is spreading deeper and farther than we could have imagined, and people who are not "train nuts" are sitting up and taking notice.


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## Devil's Advocate

If Amtrak's food exhibits unacceptable taste or texture that's mostly down to poor quality ingredients, extended storage, and/or sloppy preparation. Microwaves aren't perfect but their fundamental limitations are well understood and commercial versions are in common use.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

JRR said:


> At the risk of endlessly repeating myself, I have pointed out numerous times the fallacy of counting as revenue, what the sleeper passenger actually ordered/ate.
> 
> You pay for the potential meals when you buy the ticket. The amount credited to F&B is the revenue but it does not appear that this is being done.
> 
> You are correct that this can be an arbitrary amount, thus AMTRACK has control over the revenue side to show profit or loss.
> 
> Without showing the revenue side, no proper accounting or analysis of the F&B operations can ever be made.
> 
> Cutting costs w/o revenue methodology is smoke and mirrors!



As I mentioned numerous times, who do publically traded cruise lines do it? What accounting magic do they employ, to divvy up cabin fares paid by passengers, to show their stockholders (their equivalent to Congress for Amtrak) a profitable revenue stream for their "free/included" Main Dining Room?


----------



## Rail Freak

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> As I mentioned numerous times, who do publically traded cruise lines do it? What accounting magic do they employ, to divvy up cabin fares paid by passengers, to show their stockholders (their equivalent to Congress for Amtrak) a profitable revenue stream for their "free/included" Main Dining Room?


You mean to "Tell the Truth", reminds me of an old TV Game Show! LOL


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## seat38a

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> As I mentioned numerous times, who do publically traded cruise lines do it? What accounting magic do they employ, to divvy up cabin fares paid by passengers, to show their stockholders (their equivalent to Congress for Amtrak) a profitable revenue stream for their "free/included" Main Dining Room?


Well lets start with labor, which is substantially cheaper on a cruise than on Amtrak. Do you really need number breakdowns when your paying base salaries as $50/month for a room steward (Straight from his mouth) and then making up the rest by taking out involuntary tips on your room charge of the customers?


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## JRR

On 20, the Crescent coming into Culpepper Va about 21/2 hrs late. At 7 am they were out of the breakfast sandwiches (the attendant called it Jimmy Dean. Said they only had one and the guy in front of me got it She said the people boarding in New Orleans ate them yesterday morning and there was no where to pick any more up before D.C.

Pretty pathetic. So far I'd say it's worse than the intro last year on the CL!


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## chrsjrcj

Cruise Ships that are not registered to the United States, do not have to follow US laws. Amtrak does.


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## Rasputin

JRR said:


> On 20, the Crescent coming into Culpepper Va about 21/2 hrs late. At 7 am they were out of the breakfast sandwiches (the attendant called it Jimmy Dean. Said they only had one and the guy in front of me got it She said the people boarding in New Orleans ate them yesterday morning and there was no where to pick any more up before D.C.
> 
> Pretty pathetic. So far I'd say it's worse than the intro last year on the CL!


Couldn't Amtrak cut a deal with a Travelodge, a Comfort Inn or a Clarion hotel near a stop and arrange for passengers to walk to the hotel and have a nice (by Amtrak standards) breakfast while the train waited. Sort of like a modern Harvey House operation. Even coach passengers could be fed.


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## fixj

Anyone know if the ovens Amtrak is using with this new food service are the Turbo Chef convection/microwave ovens like Subway sandwich shops and Starbucks are using?


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## JRR

fixj said:


> Anyone know if the ovens Amtrak is using with this new food service are the Turbo Chef convection/microwave ovens like Subway sandwich shops and Starbucks are using?



Just a note on the Crescent - worst ever! I’ll go into more detail on my trip report but the whole f&b service is a mess and out of control.

The SCA came by and told us that the only item left was the chicken. He said he was taking reservations and what did we want. Jokingly, we said the shrimp dish and he again asked what did we want. My wife then said since you only have chicken, I’ll take the chicken. He wrote her order down and then asked me what did I want! Of course, I said chicken! He then said we could go to lunch at 12:30 PM. We went at 12:30 PM and found our breakfast mates sitting there. They said that their reservation was for 12:00 PM but they hadn’t been served yet.

Flexible dining!

Anyway, I went up to the kitchen and let the attendant know that we were there. She asked us to wait while she took care of a large family (at least 10 people, I can’t be sure).

Anyway around 1:00 pm when they cleared out, I went back up and she asked if I wanted the shrimp dish and I took it for both. I had ordered the Stone IPA and she said she was out and gave me a Stella instead. She had no rolls having given them all out to the family ahead of us.

Meanwhile the folks with the “12:00 PM reservation” still had not been served. I suggested to the gentleman that he needed to c
Go back up and try to get his order.

I saw him come back with his food around 1:30pm.

I’ll deal with the food later but will advise that when my wife tried to get a ginger ale, she was told they were out and they gave her an apple juice.

Total chaos!


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## Rasputin

JRR said:


> Just a note on the Crescent - worst ever! I’ll go into more detail on my trip report but the whole f&b service is a mess and out of control.
> 
> Total chaos!



Thanks for the warning. I realized that it is always good to take along a supply of food. Didn't realize we would have to pack in our own drinks.


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## Winecliff Station

JRR said:


> Just a note on the Crescent - worst ever! I’ll go into more detail on my trip report but the whole f&b service is a mess and out of control.
> 
> The SCA came by and told us that the only item left was the chicken. He said he was taking reservations and what did we want. Jokingly, we said the shrimp dish and he again asked what did we want. My wife then said since you only have chicken, I’ll take the chicken. He wrote her order down and then asked me what did I want! Of course, I said chicken! He then said we could go to lunch at 12:30 PM. We went at 12:30 PM and found our breakfast mates sitting there. They said that their reservation was for 12:00 PM but they hadn’t been served yet.
> 
> Flexible dining!
> 
> Anyway, I went up to the kitchen and let the attendant know that we were there. She asked us to wait while she took care of a large family (at least 10 people, I can’t be sure).
> 
> Anyway around 1:00 pm when they cleared out, I went back up and she asked if I wanted the shrimp dish and I took it for both. I had ordered the Stone IPA and she said she was out and gave me a Stella instead. She had no rolls having given them all out to the family ahead of us.
> 
> Meanwhile the folks with the “12:00 PM reservation” still had not been served. I suggested to the gentleman that he needed to c
> Go back up and try to get his order.
> 
> I saw him come back with his food around 1:30pm.
> 
> I’ll deal with the food later but will advise that when my wife tried to get a ginger ale, she was told they were out and they gave her an apple juice.
> 
> Total chaos!



This is discouraging to hear.....I did change tomorrow’s reservation from the Star to the Meteor, really just to get to NY about 8 hours earlier and not for the food. Still, thinking the noodle bowl had better be at least somewhat edible since I’ll have to get it twice in this trip, but if even that can run out I might as well be on the Starve :/


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## JRR

Winecliff Station said:


> This is discouraging to hear.....I did change tomorrow’s reservation from the Star to the Meteor, really just to get to NY about 8 hours earlier and not for the food. Still, thinking the noodle bowl had better be at least somewhat edible since I’ll have to get it twice in this trip, but if even that can run out I might as well be on the Starve :/



There were no noodle bowls available.


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## River in Sight

Just completed a trip from CVS-ALX on the Cardinal. The only options left were the Noodle Bowl and Chicken Fettucini. The children’s meals were gone and my son was offered a hot dog which he happily accepted. My wife and I each had the noodle bowl; it contains no protein, at the least it should have tofu. It tasted like a microwaved frozen meal and we agreed it was lower quality than a typical domestic airline first class meal. Dessert was not discussed nor offered. We each ordered a stone IPA and that was still available. We booked a sleeper for our trip back mostly to have the privacy, definitely not worth it for the food.


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## roadman3313

I too rode the Cardinal from CHI-NYP. I had a hot dog for dinner the second night and my friend had a Cheeseburger as they were out of all the other options except the Chicken Fettuccini. We were offered a hot dog, hamburger, pizza, or sandwich. All of these options were more appealing to us than the meal choices. The “server” did save two of the “salads” for us to eat with our meal. 

Back tracking a bit, I will say that the level of service provided was higher than I expected given the current reviews and lack of the Viewliner “Sleeper Lounge.” This is attributed fully to the crew and not to the concept itself. The first night the menus were out on the table like a “dining car” and all options were available. Presentation was nice and the desserts were warmed up and presented as well. Table service was provided. No horrors of tin foil covered meals or ungrateful counter service. Now it should be noted this is not the norm as the service model calls for counter service, however the “server” was doing what he could to make it a bit more pleasant of an experience for the customers. The overall sentiment, however was no one openly preferred this model over the previous traditional dining, granted the Cardinal did not have traditional dining in the recent past. By day two many options had run out, however they did offer alternatives for dinner if you selected an option that was not available. 

Overall the food wasn’t the worst I have ever had and might be fine for one meal if food service were not otherwise offered, however not for multiple meals or counter service (nutritional facts aside). Yes, I am technically a Millennial (by year definition) and I can tell you there are days I don’t want to dine communally with others in a dining car, however I was perfectly fine taking my traditional lunches and dinners in my room on the Zephyr from EMY-CHI while playing around on my phone (or whatever us Millennials are supposedly doing). Breakfast in the dining car was amazing both days because the staff made it amazing. Plus the pancakes were very big and fluffy too! I would like parts of the concept of flexible dining if it didn’t compromise the food options and if the traditional model were still available to those who enjoy it. I did not grow up in an era where fine railroad dining was available with China and glassware, however I can appreciate and respect the sentiment that people have regarding more traditional dining on a train. It is an important part of what makes the experience so enjoyable and memorable for many. It might not be my everyday enjoyment when I ride a train, but flexible dining certainly is not the answer either.


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## Winecliff Station

JRR said:


> There were no noodle bowls available.



I’m not sure how they’d provide for vegetarians in that case, other than the cafe car’s pizza or mac n cheese for no charge.


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## ehbowen

Rasputin said:


> Couldn't Amtrak cut a deal with a Travelodge, a Comfort Inn or a Clarion hotel near a stop and arrange for passengers to walk to the hotel and have a nice (by Amtrak standards) breakfast while the train waited. Sort of like a modern Harvey House operation. Even coach passengers could be fed.


You have to remember that in the Harvey House days the stations were built with side tracks so that the passenger trains could be parked off the main line while the passengers dined. I don't think that the present-day freight railroads would be happy with Amtrak blocking their mains for 30-40 minutes as the passengers ate.


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## Qapla

roadman3313 said:


> I would like parts of the concept of flexible dining if it didn’t compromise the food options ... an era where fine railroad dining was available with China and glassware



I can see where the concept could work if properly executed ... so far it doesn't sound like it is being accomplished very well

As far as china and glassware ... I would be fine with some type of plastic cup/glass (like the kind many stadiums use) that I could keep with the Amtrak Logo and the Route name/logo on it. I would not want a paper/disposable cup/glass that would not last as a keepsake.

Imagine being able to collect an entire set of cups like this - having one for each train route with a dining car. As far as I know, they never let you keep the china or glassware.


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## crescent-zephyr

roadman3313 said:


> I would like parts of the concept of flexible dining if it didn’t compromise the food options and if the traditional model were still available to those who enjoy it. I did not grow up in an era where fine railroad dining was available with China and glassware, however I can appreciate and respect the sentiment that people have regarding more traditional dining on a train. It is an important part of what makes the experience so enjoyable and memorable for many. It might not be my everyday enjoyment when I ride a train, but flexible dining certainly is not the answer either.



This is my thought as well. I like the fancy dining cars but sometimes the whole process is a bit much. A more casual dining car service I can get behind. But the food and selections is a major downgrade. 

I’m still not sure why they couldn’t have kept the chef and not the LSA since the LSA is having to prepare all the meals.


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## johnmiller

Devil's Advocate said:


> Oof...
> View attachment 15061
> 
> ^ This honestly looks just like a generic coach class airline meal kit rather than any sort of premium cabin entree.


We're paying first-class fares. We shouldn't be getting coach food.


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## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m still not sure why they couldn’t have kept the chef and not the LSA since the LSA is having to prepare all the meals.


I think LSA is the proper job classification that describes a single food service crew member having to work alone. I don’t think the fact that they have that job title limits how they can prepare food rather the service format and meal options do. From my understanding these jobs did not automatically go to the “LSA - Diner” that were in the traditional dining cars. All the diner crew member jobs were cut and these “LSA” jobs were considered new positions and were awarded to affected employees based on seniority. I think only the CONO and Cardinal crew members got direct transfers because they only had a single food service worker with the diner lite format. It very well may be that a couple of these LSAs were Chefs in the former configuration. I think theoretically that if they put out a flex dining meal that required some usage of the grill for finishing that the LSA could do that if it was required. I think it’s a matter of the food choices offered. It is possible to have acceptable preprepared meals - I have had several decent ones in Acela first class. Everyone with negative experiences should send them into Amtrak (and if you try one you like send that in too) it makes sense to keep the acceptable ones and get rid of the inedible ones. While they aren’t going to bring back traditional dining on these trains, there is room for improvement and if they can’t get decent products out of Aramark they should seek a new commissary operator.


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## lordsigma

johnmiller said:


> We're paying first-class fares. We shouldn't be getting coach food.



I think the reason for the air tight packaging in this particular meal choice is because it’s kosher. And kosher meals have to be sealed in that way to maintain the integrity. Borenstein is a kosher meal provider and is probably where Aramark sources their kosher meals from. This is not likely exactly representative of how the non kosher meals are packaged/look before plating. Maybe it isn’t any better, but just pointing out that this specific packaging is representative for kosher only.


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## Barb Stout

lordsigma said:


> I think LSA is the proper job classification that describes a single food service crew member having to work alone. I don’t think the fact that they have that job title limits how they can prepare food rather the service format and meal options do. From my understanding these jobs did not automatically go to the “LSA - Diner” that were in the traditional dining cars. All the diner crew member jobs were cut and these “LSA” jobs were considered new positions and were awarded to affected employees based on seniority. I think only the CONO and Cardinal crew members got direct transfers because they only had a single food service worker with the diner lite format. It very well may be that a couple of these LSAs were Chefs in the former configuration. I think theoretically that if they put out a flex dining meal that required some usage of the grill for finishing that the LSA could do that if it was required. I think it’s a matter of the food choices offered. It is possible to have acceptable preprepared meals - I have had several decent ones in Acela first class. Everyone with negative experiences should send them into Amtrak (and if you try one you like send that in too) it makes sense to keep the acceptable ones and get rid of the inedible ones. While they aren’t going to bring back traditional dining on these trains, there is room for improvement and if they can’t get decent products out of Aramark they should seek a new commissary operator.


To what part of Amtrak should one send info about acceptable meals and bad meals? Customer relations or...?


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## lordsigma

Barb Stout said:


> To what part of Amtrak should one send info about acceptable meals and bad meals? Customer relations or...?



Customer relations or the part of the website where you can submit comments.


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## jloewen

I'm on the Crescent southbound, in N AL., 30 min. late. Dinner: I had the beef stew; wife had shrimp and Andouille sausage. Both were tasty. Did not equal a steak cooked the way I want, with or without crabcake on top, per the old regime, but only occupied one person, compared to old staff of at least three, probably four. Dessert was either a brownie or a blondie, not really much choice, but they were OK. (Yes, I tried both mains and both desserts, cause my POSSLQ had the other and we exchanged bites.)
A big saving was in salad dressing, which was a small Heinz (I think) packet, compared to the huge Paul Newman packets we used to get, large enough for at least two salads.
Another saving was: no table cloths. However, Amtrak hasn't figured this out yet: we rounded a curve, S of Alexandria, and my wine and water slid smartly to the R on the plain formica table, hit the wall, and the water spilled some ice onto the table and floor. A paper placemat will probably fix that problem.
Breakfast was full of carbohydrates and packaging but not bad. I had raisin bran with half a banana on top with yogurt and milk, and also an egg sausage mcmuffin. Lunch will be dinner again. No lunch menu!
Going to Meridian and then renting a car and driving to Jackson and Tougaloo College for its 150th anniv. Then we'll drive back to Meridian and fly back to DC, since the northbound Crescent schedule doesn't meet our needs.


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## Winecliff Station

jloewen said:


> I'm on the Crescent southbound, in N AL., 30 min. late. Dinner: I had the beef stew; wife had shrimp and Andouille sausage. Both were tasty. Did not equal a steak cooked the way I want, with or without crabcake on top, per the old regime, but only occupied one person, compared to old staff of at least three, probably four. Dessert was either a brownie or a blondie, not really much choice, but they were OK. (Yes, I tried both mains and both desserts, cause my POSSLQ had the other and we exchanged bites.)
> A big saving was in salad dressing, which was a small Heinz (I think) packet, compared to the huge Paul Newman packets we used to get, large enough for at least two salads.
> Another saving was: no table cloths. However, Amtrak hasn't figured this out yet: we rounded a curve, S of Alexandria, and my wine and water slid smartly to the R on the plain formica table, hit the wall, and the water spilled some ice onto the table and floor. A paper placemat will probably fix that problem.
> Breakfast was full of carbohydrates and packaging but not bad. I had raisin bran with half a banana on top with yogurt and milk, and also an egg sausage mcmuffin. Lunch will be dinner again. No lunch menu!
> Going to Meridian and then renting a car and driving to Jackson and Tougaloo College for its 150th anniv. Then we'll drive back to Meridian and fly back to DC, since the northbound Crescent schedule doesn't meet our needs.



Similar experience here on Meteor northbound.... boarded in Fort Lauderdale, breakfast "buffet" was still open, I had oatmeal and Kind bar, DH had the sausage egg muffin, both really missed the omelets we had on the way down. They also had bananas, yogurt, two kinds of prepackaged muffins, three kinds of cold cereal, milk and juice. Our sleeper attendant then took lunch and dinner orders while we were still in the dining car talking to other disappointed passengers, and asked for preferred meal times as well as whether we'd want to eat in the bedroom or "lounge" again. He took drink orders also for both meals, mentioned the first was free.

At noon, our scheduled time, we went to the lounge.....it was easier for only one of us to wait at the counter for both meals because a line already had started and was crowded with one of the sleeper attendants coming in and out for the room service orders. Waited almost 15 minutes with only one person ahead of me, because only one attendant was working the meal counter and putting together the orders.

Salad was about 5-6 bites, tiny dressing packages in either ranch, Italian or lite Italian. Rolls were good and a decent size, not warmed. I had the noodle bowl, hubby had the shrimp and sausage with rice. Vegetables in the noodle bowl looked overcooked but tasted ok. Someone mentioned there is no protein in the noodle bowl but there is about a tablespoon of edamame for whatever that's worth. Napkins were that durable almost cloth-like type, plastic flatware that tries to look like silverware. The funky trays are reusable and collected. No dessert or coffee were offered, but I didn't ask. I grabbed coffee from the ice and coffee service station in our bedroom car.

The lounge is the same as the dining car that we had our traditional dining meals on the trip down, though minus the tablecloths. My wine was served with stadium type plastic cups with Amtrak logo, but thankfully the drinks and rolls were given to me in one of those boxes where you can form cupholders in the corners, so that's how I avoided spilling my drink. Classy. 

Dinner is at 6, if anything noteworthy is different I'll report back, but since we both ordered the same meals again I don't anticipate much.


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## Rasputin

Winecliff Station said:


> Salad was about 5-6 bites, tiny dressing packages in either ranch, Italian or lite Italian.


If the salad is anything like the Contemporary Dining salad on the Lake Shore, it is one of the smallest salads in captivity.


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## pennyk

Winecliff Station said:


> No dessert or coffee were offered, but I didn't ask.



I was on the Meteor northbound and soutbound last week, both trips with flex dining. On the northbound trip, you had to go back to the LSA and request desserts. I shared with the woman at the next table. On the southbound trip, the LSA placed the desserts on one of the tables and it was self serve. Both northbound and southbound, I requested hot water for my tea. I tipped the LSA, but not as much as I would for table service.

One of the Meteor sleeper car attendants is a friend of mine and she told me that she never stopped walking back and forth from the sleeper car to the sleeper lounge, picking up and delivering meals. It seems like no one is happy with the new system.


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## Winecliff Station

pennyk said:


> I was on the Meteor northbound and soutbound last week, both trips with flex dining. On the northbound trip, you had to go back to the LSA and request desserts. I shared with the woman at the next table. On the southbound trip, the LSA placed the desserts on one of the tables and it was self serve. Both northbound and southbound, I requested hot water for my tea. I tipped the LSA, but not as much as I would for table service.
> 
> One of the Meteor sleeper car attendants is a friend of mine and she told me that she never stopped walking back and forth from the sleeper car to the sleeper lounge, picking up and delivering meals. It seems like no one is happy with the new system.



It is very clumsy and awkward....poorly set up from a logistical perspective.

I think your friend was our attendant on the trip down and I was hoping I'd see her again this time.


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## Winecliff Station

Some new info, we just had a “smoke and stretch” stop where one of the attendants was apparently showing my husband some of the packaging labels.....the amount of sodium is insane, I want to say 2000 milligrams? One of our fellow passengers is a pharmacist and was concerned about the number of seniors that travel by train having such unhealthy choices.


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## SarahZ

Winecliff Station said:


> Some new info, we just had a “smoke and stretch” stop where one of the attendants was apparently showing my husband some of the packaging labels.....the amount of sodium is insane, I want to say 2000 milligrams? One of our fellow passengers is a pharmacist and was concerned about the number of seniors that travel by train having such unhealthy choices.


Many heat-and-serve meals exceed 1200 mg, and if it has sauce, that number jumps even higher. 1500-2000 wouldn't surprise me, depending on the ingredients and size of the meal.

For comparison's sake, I looked at some of the food on the trains that still have a traditional diner. The Thyme Chicken Breast w/ Creamy Mushroom Sauce on the CZ only has 700 mg of sodium, and that includes the veggies and mashed potatoes. On the other hand, the Chicken & Bacon Fettucine Carbonara has 1360 mg of sodium. So really, the sodium content has always been a gamble, even before the flex dining.

(Not being an apologist. Just offering up some comparisons.)

I did notice the new meals are on the Amtrak Food Facts site, if you want to take a look at the nutrition info.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Another theory among some passengers is a kickback....meaning to whoever owns the company producing these meals. There’s also talk about why the soda companies changed, which I wasn’t even aware had happened.


----------



## Anderson

Oh, did the coca-cola switch happen already? Awesome!


----------



## Winecliff Station

Anderson said:


> Oh, did the coca-cola switch happen already? Awesome!



I’m assuming so but I haven’t been to the cafe car yet. That’s something I don’t mind since I’ve always been a coca cola fan but Peter prefers Pepsi.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Anderson said:


> Oh, did the coca-cola switch happen already? Awesome!


The Flex menu shows Pepsi.


----------



## Winecliff Station

AmtrakBlue said:


> The Flex menu shows Pepsi.



Yep, someone just walked by with a Pepsi.... I sit corrected.


----------



## lordsigma

Soda contracts tend to be iron clad. It is tough to get out of them. Even if they want to switch to coke they’ll have to wait or pay a lot.


----------



## Winecliff Station

lordsigma said:


> Soda contracts tend to be iron clad. It is tough to get out of them. Even if they want to switch to coke they’ll have to wait or pay a lot.



There is talk about a connection between Anderson’s son and Coke so who knows


----------



## Qapla

I am just fine with Pepsi ...

But then, I can always bring whatever brand/flavor I want


----------



## Anderson

lordsigma said:


> Soda contracts tend to be iron clad. It is tough to get out of them. Even if they want to switch to coke they’ll have to wait or pay a lot.


Yes, but there are two options at hand:
(1) The contract is coming up organically.
(2) Anderson and Coke are coming up with something to "take the edge off" a switch.


----------



## jis

Winecliff Station said:


> Thanks! I think they’re having us do customs the day before at Key West but it can’t help to be prepared


I believe the rule is you have to go through C&I at the first American port that you touch irrespective of whether that is your final destination or not.


----------



## jiml

Anderson said:


> Oh, did the coca-cola switch happen already? Awesome!


Finally!


----------



## Qapla

Switching to Coca-Cola


----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> Finally!


----------



## Rasputin

I don't care if it is pepsi or coke. I would prefer a steak and decent food.


----------



## me_little_me

My God! What hath Anderson wrought?

We took the Crescent to NYP from GRV on Oct 1. Returned this morning. I can't believe what happened!

Outgoing breakfast
Server was upset we hadn't remembered the menu and didn't immediately know what we wanted. We were expected to memorize exactly what we wanted! She was quite upset at any customer who couldn't immediately tell her what was wanted - not just us. And that was the good server. Worse happened on the return.
Bananas were all rotten.
You had to ask for fruit bowl.
No sign of Kind bar on buffet.
Hot egg muffin tasted like rubber.
Prepackaged muffins tasted like crap.

Outgoing Lunch

Same server. We were told by her we MUST be seated before Washington arrival or no lunch. This was 5 minutes before arrival in DC We went in to the "Diner" and asked if we could go outside for a few minutes for fresh air. Emphatic NO! Then the power went off for engine change so she couldn't cook. She reluctantly let us step out but even though we returned before power was restored, she was angry with us about it. She said lunch had to be finished by Trenton although that wasn't for a few hours. How long did she think it would take to eat that crap?
Same old poor quality roll
No butter offered. You had to ask for butter.
Only two salad dressing choices vs 6 in the old days.
No diet sodas available. She said they ran out "the day before". Sure!
Wine reluctantly given after server demanded to know if we got one at previous night's dinner (we got on after midnight). We must have been memorable considering the car was full of only 5 passengers.
Microwaved garbage.

Then came the return trip. This was a gem.
Return
Walked into the Diner just to ask for a soda and was the only person there. I sat down a few seats from the kitchen and asked for a soft drink. I had to meet her halfway from seat as she wouldn't bring it.
Had to bring my own empty can to trash even though the server was not busy. Actually she was doing nothing at the time. And that was just the beginning.

Dinner
Sign in the back of the car says "Return Trays Here". I thought to myself I guess we have to bus our own table for dinner. Nah! WRONG! Server announces that "the procedure is that the passenger goes to the kitchen area to order the food then returns to pick up the food when it is ready". Get that folks!
We found out you do indeed bus your own table and if you want dessert, you had better go to the kitchen to get it from her. There is no service any more (so no reason to tip). I didn't tip fir the first time in my life in the diner.

The food was the same as lunch on the way up except the roll was better and butter was included.
Sadly, since nobody seated the patrons, people did what they do under the circumstances, spreading out and couples occupied the whole table. The result was that others saw no room and had no idea what to do or where to sit. We and a few others familiar with the old system knew to sit together so as to leave space for others but even then, people didn't know where to sit so we invited a single woman to join us. We had an excellent conversation with her. I was amazed at the number of first time sleeper passengers who had no idea how it was just 2 weeks ago - either the food or the service. I talked to a number of them and told them that 2 weeks earlier they could have had a steak dinner with tablecloth, real cutlery, cloth napkins and a server who took your order and brought your meal.

Obviously others had experienced the new food already. Passengers just walked through from the sleepers at mealtime and headed straight for the cafe without even hesitating. A few minutes later they came back and ate what they bought. And they were the millenials that Anderson is supposedly appealing to. Guess they don't like his garbage food either.


----------



## me_little_me

AmtrakBlue said:


> It wasn’t microwaved. They use a convection oven.


Not for the morning Egg McRubber! Convection ovens don't turn bread and other ingredients into rubber but microwaves do. I was afraid to drop it on the Crescent because if it bounced too high I wouldn't be able to catch it!


----------



## jiml

Rasputin said:


> I don't care if it is pepsi or coke. I would prefer a steak and decent food.


Food goes better with Coke. Just sayin'...


----------



## Rasputin

me_little_me said:


> My God! What hath Anderson wrought?



Comrades, they must be gleeful at Amtrak headquarters. It is all working according to plan.


----------



## jloewen

me_little_me said:


> My God! What hath Anderson wrought?
> 
> We took the Crescent to NYP from GRV on Oct 1. Returned this morning. I can't believe what happened!
> 
> Outgoing breakfast
> Server was upset we hadn't remembered the menu and didn't immediately know what we wanted. We were expected to memorize exactly what we wanted! She was quite upset at any customer who couldn't immediately tell her what was wanted - not just us. And that was the good server. Worse happened on the return.
> Bananas were all rotten.
> You had to ask for fruit bowl.
> No sign of Kind bar on buffet.
> Hot egg muffin tasted like rubber.
> Prepackaged muffins tasted like crap.
> 
> Outgoing Lunch
> 
> Same server. We were told by her we MUST be seated before Washington arrival or no lunch. This was 5 minutes before arrival in DC We went in to the "Diner" and asked if we could go outside for a few minutes for fresh air. Emphatic NO! Then the power went off for engine change so she couldn't cook. She reluctantly let us step out but even though we returned before power was restored, she was angry with us about it. She said lunch had to be finished by Trenton although that wasn't for a few hours. How long did she think it would take to eat that crap?
> Same old poor quality roll
> No butter offered. You had to ask for butter.
> Only two salad dressing choices vs 6 in the old days.
> No diet sodas available. She said they ran out "the day before". Sure!
> Wine reluctantly given after server demanded to know if we got one at previous night's dinner (we got on after midnight). We must have been memorable considering the car was full of only 5 passengers.
> Microwaved garbage.
> 
> Then came the return trip. This was a gem.
> Return
> Walked into the Diner just to ask for a soda and was the only person there. I sat down a few seats from the kitchen and asked for a soft drink. I had to meet her halfway from seat as she wouldn't bring it.
> Had to bring my own empty can to trash even though the server was not busy. Actually she was doing nothing at the time. And that was just the beginning.
> 
> Dinner
> Sign in the back of the car says "Return Trays Here". I thought to myself I guess we have to bus our own table for dinner. Nah! WRONG! Server announces that "the procedure is that the passenger goes to the kitchen area to order the food then returns to pick up the food when it is ready". Get that folks!
> We found out you do indeed bus your own table and if you want dessert, you had better go to the kitchen to get it from her. There is no service any more (so no reason to tip). I didn't tip fir the first time in my life in the diner.
> 
> The food was the same as lunch on the way up except the roll was better and butter was included.
> Sadly, since nobody seated the patrons, people did what they do under the circumstances, spreading out and couples occupied the whole table. The result was that others saw no room and had no idea what to do or where to sit. We and a few others familiar with the old system knew to sit together so as to leave space for others but even then, people didn't know where to sit so we invited a single woman to join us. We had an excellent conversation with her. I was amazed at the number of first time sleeper passengers who had no idea how it was just 2 weeks ago - either the food or the service. I talked to a number of them and told them that 2 weeks earlier they could have had a steak dinner with tablecloth, real cutlery, cloth napkins and a server who took your order and brought your meal.
> 
> Obviously others had experienced the new food already. Passengers just walked through from the sleepers at mealtime and headed straight for the cafe without even hesitating. A few minutes later they came back and ate what they bought. And they were the millenials that Anderson is supposedly appealing to. Guess they don't like his garbage food either.



We (wife Susan and I) took the Crescent Sun.-Mon. from WAS to Meridian, MS, and had a very friendly experience with Candy, our SCA, and the African American woman who was the staff on the dining car. We had the beef stew and the shrimp Andouille stew and found both tasty. I think I reported on this already, but cannot now find my message. The staff woman was very friendly and efficient, brought food to tables, simply a day vs. night difference compared to "Me Little Me"'s experience recounted above.
Breakfast had adequate options. Muffins are likely disappointing -- I didn't try 'em -- but had raisin bran with banana slices on top, followed by a breakfast sandwich. Just fine.
So far as I'm concerned, tho problems remain (slick tables are a hazard in case the train rounds a curve...), and it does not equal the "steak cooked the way you like it" of the previous dining car, it was OK and she was fine.


----------



## MrNews

Recently traveled TPA <--> EWR on the Silver Star, so no "new & improved" food service yet. Actually, nothing except the Cafe Car, whose attendant made frequent announcements about openings, closings, breaks, etc etc. Moderately annoying, but necessary, I guess. I checked it out, and they did not have the one item I wanted, and we did not risk the sandwiches or "burger." We'll certainly miss the old service, with the steak dinner, served on chinette plates at sunset, and occasional conversations with strangers at our table. Our new strategy is to bring a small cooler with frozen packs, which lasts about 24 hours, some homemade sandwiches. fruit, chips, and a collapsible water boiler. We prepared our own soups, tea, etc, and were reasonably happy, despite the $1700 R/T cost. It's disheartening that Amtrak is making the idiotic mistake of erasing the few things that make traveling the rails unique, and better, than flying or driving. So many businesses follow that "model," and end up shooting themselves in the foot.


----------



## bratkinson

I'm sure Anderson et al are joyfully proclaiming: "I LOVE it when a plan comes together!" (with apologies to the A-Team on TV). How many LD passengers will soon become EX-LD passengers? One can skip the food on an airplane as it's never over 4 hours unless going overseas. But to spend 18-30 hours on a train and have to eat that garbage? I can assure you, they WON'T be back!


----------



## Dakota 400

bratkinson said:


> I'm sure Anderson et al are joyfully proclaiming: "I LOVE it when a plan comes together!" (with apologies to the A-Team on TV). How many LD passengers will soon become EX-LD passengers? One can skip the food on an airplane as it's never over 4 hours unless going overseas. But to spend 18-30 hours on a train and have to eat that garbage? I can assure you, they WON'T be back!



This entire controversy about Amtrak dining is making me to re-think about my plans for a possible Auto Train trip this Winter. 

What quality of food and of service will be provided? What attitudes and service will I experience from the LSA and the SCA?


----------



## Charles785

I certainly hope conductor me_little_me reports that atrocious customer service experience to Amtrak!


----------



## Anderson

Dakota 400 said:


> This entire controversy about Amtrak dining is making me to re-think about my plans for a possible Auto Train trip this Winter.
> 
> What quality of food and of service will be provided? What attitudes and service will I experience from the LSA and the SCA?


The Auto Train hasn't been affected by this mess as of yet. What dates are you looking at traveling?


----------



## OBS

Anderson said:


> The Auto Train hasn't been affected by this mess as of yet. What dates are you looking at traveling?


Not to mention if in a sleeper, they are trying to slightly improve meals. Auto train crews have probably the most consistent quality of service of any crew base.


----------



## lordsigma

Dakota 400 said:


> This entire controversy about Amtrak dining is making me to re-think about my plans for a possible Auto Train trip this Winter.
> 
> What quality of food and of service will be provided? What attitudes and service will I experience from the LSA and the SCA?



As stated by others, the diner for sleeping car passengers on the auto train is remaining the current format and will still have a full staff so if you were going to get a sleeper there’s no reason to reconsider. The coach diner is going to an a la carte format where passengers have to pay for meals (it is still unknown what this will look like whether it will be just cafe car food or whether they may be selling meals similar to the flex dining menu) however this is supposed to be accompanied by more consistently cheaper coach tickets. They are also going to have food trucks at the two stations to give people the option of eating before the trip or getting food to bring aboard. While many have balked at the food truck concept, there are actually some really good and unique ones out there but I guess it depends on who they bring in. I think that could be hit or miss depending on if they bring in decent food truck operators. But again to conclude, if you are staying in a sleeper you will still get the traditional auto train dining. It’s a fun trip and I’d recommend it to anyone. It is a great service and quite convenient at getting you and your vehicle down to Florida.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The problem with the food truck, is that you have to purchase your meal by 3 pm so you can board the train, but there is no way to heat up your meal at dinner time. I’m sure it will be popular, but it’s not an adequate substitute for no food service (although there will be a cafe car).


----------



## Seaboard92

The other problem with food trucks they can tear your system right up.


----------



## lordsigma

Seaboard92 said:


> The other problem with food trucks they can tear your system right up.



Some can for sure. But around where I live at a lot of the craft breweries they have some really good ones that have top notch food. Fancy food trucks are Kind of a becoming a trend along with the craft beer thing.


----------



## lordsigma

chrsjrcj said:


> The problem with the food truck, is that you have to purchase your meal by 3 pm so you can board the train, but there is no way to heat up your meal at dinner time. I’m sure it will be popular, but it’s not an adequate substitute for no food service (although there will be a cafe car).



I agree it’s Very true. I think they should add the ability to heat your own meals in the coach food service area. I think it is presumed that the new coach setup will be a cafe car equivalent but you never know, they may have some more substantial meals you can get similar to what the silver star cafe had when they first dropped the diner or perhaps they’ll offer something similar to the flex dining options from the meteor for purchase. Certainly not a proper substitute but it would be more substantial than just cafe fare. We’ll have to see what happens with that. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a menu unique to the auto train.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

lordsigma said:


> Soda contracts tend to be iron clad. It is tough to get out of them. Even if they want to switch to coke they’ll have to wait or pay a lot.


Do soda contracts last decades? Because that's how long we've been waiting. I'm not a Coke fanboy myself; I just can't stand Pepsi. If anyone thinks there is no difference try finishing a "Jack & Pepsi" without gagging.



jis said:


> I believe the rule is you have to go through C&I at the first American port that you touch irrespective of whether that is your final destination or not.


Correct. This is even true when you have no other reason to exit the aircraft, such as a direct same metal domestic connection. The only exceptions I can think of are tech stops and IRROPS.


----------



## Anderson

I mean, some companies (or restaurants) deal with each one...but there _do_ seem to be situational exceptions (e.g. some bars may be Pepsi but can still accommodate a Jack and Coke, if only by not selling the Coke separately).


----------



## Seaboard92

Some other weird exceptions are like on the USC campus the chick fil a has Pepsi products because that’s who Aramark is using. Yet a chick fil a a mile away is using coke as all other chick fil a’s use.


----------



## lordsigma

Devil's Advocate said:


> Do soda contracts last decades? Because that's how long we've been waiting.



They can last 5-10 years from what I recall from my employer. (I work at a college) And often you get stuck if you are in a place that requires competitive bids due to ethics or legal requirements (which Amtrak May.) and when you sign with coke or Pepsi there are usually iron clad exclusivity clauses. At my college anything done officially on campus has to be Pepsi products even if it’s served by an outside contractor and not by our food service. (For example Dunkin’ Donuts normally serves coke but the franchise on our campus has to serve Pepsi due to exclusivity clauses in our contract.) you can also buy soda from third party companies that serve both coke and Pepsi.

I’m a coke fan but I don’t drink soda anymore for dietary reasons. If they switched to coke on my campus that would be dangerous for me!


----------



## Palmland

I can see food trucks in the congested northern Virginia area, but not sure why they are needed in Sanford. On our recent Auto Train trip Amtrak had a shuttle bus available to take passengers to the attractive downtown with many restaurants/pubs. We checked in at the main gate and, after telling them we wanted to drive downtown, were directed to nearby visitor parking to complete check in at the station. It was all done quickly and efficiently. We then made the very short drive downtown and had an excellent lunch at Hofferbach's German restaurant. https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/4bd62e_352711021bc14b00a09d099de93814ec.pdf.


----------



## NYP2NFL01

I rode CL from WAS to DET (Via TOL) August 19-20. Service for both dinner and breakfast was acceptable. For dinner I didn't have to ask for dessert, the pre-packaged brownie was included in the box. The dinner roll had been microwaved and inedible. But, the beef dish was tasty. Had the egg and cheese muffin for breakfast.
I liked the diner more when people were seated by the staff. It forced people to be friendlier. In my experience you sat where you wanted subject to available space. No one wanted to sit at my table - maybe I had that grumpy look on my face that my wife cautions me about. She was not traveling with me on this trip.
I do miss the previous service and food in the diner though!


----------



## lordsigma

Palmland said:


> I can see food trucks in the congested northern Virginia area, but not sure why they are needed in Sanford. On our recent Auto Train trip Amtrak had a shuttle bus available to take passengers to the attractive downtown with many restaurants/pubs. We checked in at the main gate and, after telling them we wanted to drive downtown, were directed to nearby visitor parking to complete check in at the station. It was all done quickly and efficiently. We then made the very short drive downtown and had an excellent lunch at Hofferbach's German restaurant. https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/4bd62e_352711021bc14b00a09d099de93814ec.pdf.



I have eaten there coming north. Great lunch.


----------



## Dakota 400

Anderson said:


> The Auto Train hasn't been affected by this mess as of yet. What dates are you looking at traveling?



Thanks for the 3 responses to my post. I would book a sleeper in January, Northbound. Due to your responses, I will still consider the Auto Train as an option.


----------



## MARC Rider

bratkinson said:


> One can skip the food on an airplane as it's never over 4 hours unless going overseas.



Just quibbling here:
1) There's no meal service on Domestic US flights in coach, anyway. 
2) Transcontinental domestic US flights can last more than 4 hours. For example, Baltimore to either San Francisco/Oakland or Los Angeles takes about 6 hours westbound, 5 hours eastbound. I expect a flight like San Diego - Boston would take even longer. In addition, many fights are actually longer than that because not every city pair has non-stop service, so you will need to add the waiting time in the transfer airport, not to mention some pretty weird routings, like flying from Baltimore to San Francisco via Dallas. Of course, if you do have to change, you can buy and eat your meal at the transfer airport.
3) Do airlines provide meal service in coach on flights to Alaska and Hawaii? The are domestic, but depending on the route, it's possible some flights could be of equivalent length to overseas flights. How about flights to U.S. territories like Guam or Samoa? Are they considered "domestic?"


----------



## lordsigma

MARC Rider said:


> Just quibbling here:
> 1) There's no meal service on Domestic US flights in coach, anyway.
> 2) Transcontinental domestic US flights can last more than 4 hours. For example, Baltimore to either San Francisco/Oakland or Los Angeles takes about 6 hours westbound, 5 hours eastbound. I expect a flight like San Diego - Boston would take even longer. In addition, many fights are actually longer than that because not every city pair has non-stop service, so you will need to add the waiting time in the transfer airport, not to mention some pretty weird routings, like flying from Baltimore to San Francisco via Dallas. Of course, if you do have to change, you can buy and eat your meal at the transfer airport.
> 3) Do airlines provide meal service in coach on flights to Alaska and Hawaii? The are domestic, but depending on the route, it's possible some flights could be of equivalent length to overseas flights. How about flights to U.S. territories like Guam or Samoa? Are they considered "domestic?"



Several years ago I flew delta to hawaii in coach and they served food. I don’t think I would do that flight again in coach. I really don’t like flying and generally only do when I’m going somewhere where there’s no other choice. But that was several years back so things could be different now.


----------



## Anderson

I think that, for the most part, you do get a meal in coach en route to Hawaii (at least, if you're not leaving from the west coast). There are also a few airlines that _do_ offer complementary food on TCON flights (American has a few pairs). However, a lot of airlines _do_ offer at least modestly substantial food for sale in coach on flights of over about 2-3 hours (depending on the airline).


----------



## lordsigma

On auto train tonight. This is the first time I’ve seen the superliner cafe/lounge car. Last time I was on it there was a sightseer lounge. A decent car but I miss the big windows of the sight seer but I guess those belong on the western trails. Seeing the cafe menu here I really hope they have additional options when the coach diner goes away.


----------



## jis

Yes, you can certainly buy a Hamburger or Hot Dog or a couple of other meals in Coach on domestic flights in the US at least on the big three, for not a very unreasonable price, specially on mealtime flights. You can buy other snack boxes too.


----------



## Anderson

lordsigma said:


> On auto train tonight. This is the first time I’ve seen the superliner cafe/lounge car. Last time I was on it there was a sightseer lounge. A decent car but I miss the big windows of the sight seer but I guess those belong on the western trails. Seeing the cafe menu here I really hope they have additional options when the coach diner goes away.


Those are technically refitted diners, which saves Lorton/Sanford from having to deal with a different set of stuff.


----------



## Dakota 400

lordsigma said:


> On auto train tonight. This is the first time I’ve seen the superliner cafe/lounge car. Last time I was on it there was a sightseer lounge. A decent car but I miss the big windows of the sight seer but I guess those belong on the western trails. Seeing the cafe menu here I really hope they have additional options when the coach diner goes away.



What's the difference between a Superliner Cafe/Lounge Car and a Sightseer Lounge Car? 

Just as the recent posts convince me to put a trip on the Auto Train back into my planning, this one makes we wonder why.


----------



## TiBike

Devil's Advocate said:


> If anyone thinks there is no difference try finishing a "Jack & Pepsi" without gagging.



The only thing I can drink with Jack without gagging is more Jack.


----------



## Manny T

(This may have been answered: Is there anywhere one can go to find out the list of ingredients in the "new contemporary" meals?

A link would be great. Thanks!


----------



## Zach

MARC Rider said:


> Just quibbling here:
> 1) There's no meal service on Domestic US flights in coach, anyway.
> 2) Transcontinental domestic US flights can last more than 4 hours. For example, Baltimore to either San Francisco/Oakland or Los Angeles takes about 6 hours westbound, 5 hours eastbound. I expect a flight like San Diego - Boston would take even longer. In addition, many fights are actually longer than that because not every city pair has non-stop service, so you will need to add the waiting time in the transfer airport, not to mention some pretty weird routings, like flying from Baltimore to San Francisco via Dallas. Of course, if you do have to change, you can buy and eat your meal at the transfer airport.
> 3) Do airlines provide meal service in coach on flights to Alaska and Hawaii? The are domestic, but depending on the route, it's possible some flights could be of equivalent length to overseas flights. How about flights to U.S. territories like Guam or Samoa? Are they considered "domestic?"



I'm a FA for Delta, we serve complimentary meals in coach on New York-JFK- LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, SAN. Routes from SEA-Florida and RDU, there may be more from SEA but I can't recall at the moment. I'm NYC based and fly mostly JFK-LAX. We used to have 3 options in coach, this month we went down to two choices. You can also order a special meal, kosher, low fat, diabetic, gluten free, vegan, etc


----------



## Rasputin

Manny T said:


> (This may have been answered: Is there anywhere one can go to find out the list of ingredients in the "new contemporary" meals?
> 
> A link would be great. Thanks!


This may be what you are looking for:
http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/


----------



## pennyk

Manny T said:


> (This may have been answered: Is there anywhere one can go to find out the list of ingredients in the "new contemporary" meals?
> 
> A link would be great. Thanks!


Because I have food allergies, I have been trying to obtain a list of ingredients since October 1st. I was not able to obtain ingredients prior to my 10/3 and 10/7 Silver Meteor trips. I was also unable to obtain an ingredient list while on the train, thus I was not able to eat any of the lunch or dinner entrees. Since I have 8 upcoming trips this year on the trains providing flex dining, I am still trying to obtain ingredient lists. It should be noted that the prior version of these meals were in boxes and inside each box was a full ingredient list.


----------



## Anderson

I know it would be an expensive pain, but Amtrak deserves a good ADA slap over this.

(There's a lot they can't control, such as host RRs that won't accommodate high-level platforms for Reasons as well as historic stations that are tricky to modify, but this one is _totally_ on them.)


----------



## Devil's Advocate

pennyk said:


> Because I have food allergies, I have been trying to obtain a list of ingredients since October 1st. I was not able to obtain ingredients prior to my 10/3 and 10/7 Silver Meteor trips. I was also unable to obtain an ingredient list while on the train, thus I was not able to eat any of the lunch or dinner entrees.


What do the staff say when you ask about this? It just seems so odd that ingredients for mass produced food items would be this difficult to nail down in 2019. I can understand reluctance to speak in precise terms about certain nut allergies, but a basic ingredients list seems like such a simple request.


----------



## pennyk

Devil's Advocate said:


> What do the staff say when you ask about this? It just seems so odd that ingredients for mass produced food items would be this difficult to nail down in 2019. I can understand reluctance to speak in precise terms about certain nut allergies, but a basic ingredients list seems like such a simple request.


The crew was unable to provide with with a complete list of ingredients. On both trains, it was the LSA’s first exposure to flex dining. On train 97, there were 3 managers from the Miami crew base (2 of whom recognized me). They tried to find out the ingredients for me while I was still on the train and were unable to do so. It has been a frustrating experience. I have spoken to customer relations 3 times. Two agents tried to be helpful and one was rude. I have passed my experience on to a friend who works for RPA.


----------



## daybeers

lordsigma said:


> On auto train tonight. This is the first time I’ve seen the superliner cafe/lounge car. Last time I was on it there was a sightseer lounge. A decent car but I miss the big windows of the sight seer but I guess those belong on the western trails. Seeing the cafe menu here I really hope they have additional options when the coach diner goes away.


Hoooold on...they got rid of the SSL on the Auto Train?


----------



## lordsigma

Dakota 400 said:


> What's the difference between a Superliner Cafe/Lounge Car and a Sightseer Lounge Car?
> 
> Just as the recent posts convince me to put a trip on the Auto Train back into my planning, this one makes we wonder why.



Main difference is the food service area is upstairs instead of downstairs. I think I actually like the convenience of that better for this trip than the sightseer. A lot of this trip is in the dark so I don’t think not having the big sweeping sightseer windows makes a big difference and the scenery you do see during the day you can see fine through the normal superliner windows. The sightseers should stay on the western routes where you have the big dramatic scenery .


----------



## OBS

daybeers said:


> Hoooold on...they got rid of the SSL on the Auto Train?


It never had one that I recall....


----------



## Palmland

Our A-T trip had a modified CCC car used as the lounge for the sleepers. It appeared to be recently refurbished and was attractive and comfortable. With the train only about 1/3 full it wasn’t full. Maybe a dozen passengers enjoying a glass of wine or drinks before dinner. Since there was only one dinner seating, half the car was then set for dinner. We met interesting couples and found it more enjoyable than regular Amtrak lounges for socializing. Perfect for this train where the scenery is pine trees.


----------



## Manny T

Thank you Rasputin for providing this link:
http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/

However, there are no ingredients listed for the meals, just the nutritional content.

So I am still looking for a link to the ingredients of the "new contemporary" dining meals.


----------



## Qapla

Amtrak is not the only place that has difficulty listing ingredients.

It took me about 5 years (or more) to find out if there was any artificial sweetener in the "no sugar added" blueberry pie at Golden Corral. No one I asked knew or could seem to find out - and that includes several different managers ant multiple locations.

I did eventually get one enterprising waitress that took the like to look in the trash and found a very fine print label from the packaging that listed the ingredients ... and she discovered that the pie does, in fact, have NutraSweet® .... and I definately cannot use that!

It would be nice if some of these places would make their actual ingredients easier to discover ... instead of only giving the "nutrition details"


----------



## me_little_me

Charles785 said:


> I certainly hope conductor me_little_me reports that atrocious customer service experience to Amtrak!


Long since done! Because I had already gotten a voucher for A/C problems on the outgoing trip, I made it clear in the first sentence (IN ALL CAPS) that I was not looking for nor did I want a voucher.

By the way, I wasn't sure if the new fast-food style service was really policy or just some runaway server gone wild, I talked to an agent about modifying my December tripped and mentioned what it was like. She did indeed confirm that it was policy. I am now working on finding a short daytime method in the future (i.e. safe free parking and BC travel) to Chicago or NOL so I can limit my train rides to the ones with real meals and real service or short enough to not involve LD sleepers with garbage service and meals.


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> Because I have food allergies, I have been trying to obtain a list of ingredients since October 1st. I was not able to obtain ingredients prior to my 10/3 and 10/7 Silver Meteor trips. I was also unable to obtain an ingredient list while on the train, thus I was not able to eat any of the lunch or dinner entrees. Since I have 8 upcoming trips this year on the trains providing flex dining, I am still trying to obtain ingredient lists. It should be noted that the prior version of these meals were in boxes and inside each box was a full ingredient list.


I just received an email in response to my second email to Customer Relations. At this time, Amtrak is unable to provide full ingredient lists to customers, but hopes to do so in a couple of weeks. However, the agent performed some research and learned that all flex dining entrees and kosher entrees contain garlic, to which I am allergic. At least I know that I will be unable to eat any of the entrees (which are pretty unhealthy in my opinion based on sodium content and likely added preservatives).
It should be noted that I have no problem eating most traditional dining meals.


----------



## lordsigma

OBS said:


> It never had one that I recall....



The two times I took it the sleeper section at least had an SSL.


----------



## lordsigma

Palmland said:


> Our A-T trip had a modified CCC car used as the lounge for the sleepers. It appeared to be recently refurbished and was attractive and comfortable. With the train only about 1/3 full it wasn’t full. Maybe a dozen passengers enjoying a glass of wine or drinks before dinner. Since there was only one dinner seating, half the car was then set for dinner. We met interesting couples and found it more enjoyable than regular Amtrak lounges for socializing. Perfect for this train where the scenery is pine trees.
> 
> View attachment 15345



Got off this morning southbound. Was quite packed that trip with south bound snow birds. That car was quite full before dinner (this trip had all three seatings). These cars seem to have a new point of sale system in them that appears to have gone in in August. I wonder if that’s when these cars arrived as well. The sleeping car diner also had the new point of sale. There is also cafe car fare available in addition to the drinks and other conveniences (jimmy dean muffins, burgers, hot dogs, pizza) which I don’t recall seeing in the previous downstairs food area on the auto train but maybe they’ve always had it. Gives you the option of a breakfast sandwich if you want more than the continental breakfast.


----------



## lordsigma

Also as I feared there is a lot of misinformation going around due to news articles. I talked to one couple who had heard they were “getting rid of the meals” but I explained that in fact nothing was changing in the sleepers and that coach would have to pay for meals.


----------



## Anderson

Zach said:


> I'm a FA for Delta, we serve complimentary meals in coach on New York-JFK- LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, SAN. Routes from SEA-Florida and RDU, there may be more from SEA but I can't recall at the moment. I'm NYC based and fly mostly JFK-LAX. We used to have 3 options in coach, this month we went down to two choices. You can also order a special meal, kosher, low fat, diabetic, gluten free, vegan, etc


When it comes to flying, I'm a Delta guy, and...well, this is in line with my experience with Delta.

Granted, it's in F, but I'm now to the point that I can route Virginia-JFK-Florida, get a decent drink (i.e. a well-made martini, not a shotgunned-together whiskey and coffee) at a lounge at JFK, dinner on the flight down to Florida, and if I pick the right airport in my area the combination of Nexus and turned-down scanners at the local airport leaves me not wanting to hand out a pink slip in thanks for the experience.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

When it comes to modern travel I've found _disloyalty_ to be the ultimate perk. Choose any aircraft, any departure, any routing, any arrival, any car, any hotel, on any day, at any price without limitations or workarounds. It's genuinely liberating.


----------



## Palmland

This is way off topic, but since we’re talking about airline loyalty, I’ll cast my vote for Southwest. Recently we had to cancel a flight on Delta. We were out the $340 we paid for2 tickets since the fee to cancel was $400. After an already scheduled flight to ABQ next week, it’s ‘never again’ for us.

For another upcoming trip we were booked on Southwest from New Orleans to Charlotte. We decided we wanted to stay an extra day. The fee to change-$0. We had to pay the fare difference for the new departure day. The cost to us: a credit of $138! When you travel on Southwest you often have to transfer, usually for us it’s Houston Hobby. Since time isn’t an issue we’re happy to do it as their terminals are attractive with good restaurants. The last time they had a string quartet playing at the junction of two concourses. What a soothing influence it was in a normally frantic airport rat race. Of course no baggage fees either.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Just had my first experience with flexible dining. I was on the LSL yesterday and went down to the dining car, sat down, and waited for someone to tell me what the procedure was. When that didn't work, I walked up to the kitchen area and asked the LSA how this worked. He pointed at a menu on the wall, then showed me the table up front set with rolls, condiments, etc., which you took yourself. He was okay--not overly helpful, but not surly or nasty. In fact, at the end, when I asked him where to throw the trash, he took pity on me and took it himself.

I had the Asian Noodle thing, with the garlic and chili dressing or sauce or whatever, plus half of the cookie bar and half a can of ginger ale, then took coffee back to the roomette.

Without the tablecloths, the atmosphere was similar to the cafe cars, except the view of the Hudson was lovely the whole time I was eating.

I did not bother with salad dressing, since the salad was so tiny. I don't like salads, anyway, so that didn't bother me. But the Asian noodle thing was just a TV dinner. For some reason, I had a headache and my stomach didn't feel great, either, but I will not jump to conclusions that the food caused that. However, it certainly didn't help.

When I got to ALB, I went to the coffee shop and got a turkey sandwich on wheat and a slice of cake and had those watching the baseball game and felt much better.

Nobody was happy with the meal--one lady stopped at my table and said "This is awful. Who do we complain to?" Then she said, "Are they trying to lose customers?" 

As many of you know, I have a pretty cast iron stomach and very low standards--I've gotten stuff from some really questionable convenience stores and been just fine. But I won't do the flexible dining again.


----------



## lordsigma

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Nobody was happy with the meal--one lady stopped at my table and said "This is awful. Who do we complain to?" Then she said, "Are they trying to lose customers?"
> 
> As many of you know, I have a pretty cast iron stomach and very low standards--I've gotten stuff from some really questionable convenience stores and been just fine. But I won't do the flexible dining again.


Given that they are copying the airlines, I wish they’d look to some of the ones doing a decent job with it. As I said in a previous post if Aramark can’t deliver a decent product find another commissary operator. It is possible to make this dining arrangement at least acceptable to 90% of people without bringing back traditional dining if they put more effort into it and make sure they are sourcing decent products. I’d encourage you to submit a complaint to customer relations. Comments did at least get them to move from cold meals to hot meals and get rid of the boxes. Seems like they need to make a few more steps forward before getting to acceptable.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I remember not feeling well after a meal on the CZ a few years ago. Guess I shouldn't eat in a traditional diner. I've had two flexible meals so far (both on the CL pre Oct 1) and they were both fine with me. To each his own.


----------



## lordsigma

AmtrakBlue said:


> I remember not feeling well after a meal on the CZ a few years ago. Guess I shouldn't eat in a traditional diner. I've had two flexible meals so far (both on the CL pre Oct 1) and they were both fine with me. To each his own.



It’s always possible to get a “bad meal” as far as that goes from any restaurant or grocery store for that matter. It doesn’t always mean it’s the foods fault either sometimes your stomach can just be in a funk and some people react to certain foods or sudden changes in what they are eating. I do encourage anyone who truly thinks the new meals are gross to send in comments rather than never riding a train with that style dining again. Preparation is also a key thing. If these meals are being prepared in a microwave, an eventual move to convection ovens could make a big difference.


----------



## Winecliff Station

So here's an interesting question.....right now the Star bookings, still listed without meal service, go into mid September. Flex dining is supposed to be added to the Star "sometime next year" if I recall reading earlier in the thread. If you book early enough out, and then in the interim flexible dining is added, does this mean you would get these so-called meals free of charge? I'd hate to pay extra for them if the fare goes up to match the Meteor.


----------



## PVD

I've worked in plenty of facilities where Aramark was responsible for food service. They are quite capable of providing food at all levels of selection. It boils down to what you contract and pay for, and whether the contracts are written effectively, and enforced. Asking for the right items and holding feet to the fire when things are done improperly is the key.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

By the way, I did not tip, considering I did half of the work myself. I didn't see anyone else leaving tips, either. So the OBS crews might start to get a bit annoyed about that and perhaps put in their two cents about bringing real dining back?


----------



## lordsigma

PVD said:


> I've worked in plenty of facilities where Aramark was responsible for food service. They are quite capable of providing food at all levels of selection. It boils down to what you contract and pay for, and whether the contracts are written effectively, and enforced. Asking for the right items and holding feet to the fire when things are done improperly is the key.



They have claimed they are actually spending more now on the actual food than they were. I guess you just have to take them at their word with that claim. But if it’s true and if people are reacting negatively across the board they should hold them accountable and make sure they are delivering the best product possible for the format. But I guess again the question is, is it simple a matter of lousy quality meals being delivered or is it the on board preparation that’s the problem when people have had bad experiences? Obviously some are going to go into it with a bad taste simply because they don’t like the new format and aren’t going to like it no matter what.


----------



## tricia

lordsigma said:


> They have claimed they are actually spending more now on the actual food than they were. I guess you just have to take them at their word with that claim. But if it’s true and if people are reacting negatively across the board they should hold them accountable and make sure they are delivering the best product possible for the format. But I guess again the question is, is it simple a matter of lousy quality meals being delivered or is it the on board preparation that’s the problem when people have had bad experiences?



I think it's pretty clear that the quality of the meals provided is not good--certainly a dietary nightmare. On-board preparation might, or might not, be making the problem worse.


----------



## Manny T

lordsigma said:


> They have claimed they are actually spending more now on the actual food than they were.



Is there a source for this? I find it hard to believe, having experienced both traditional dining and the "new contemporary" TV dinners.


----------



## railiner

lordsigma said:


> Obviously some are going to go into it with a bad taste simply because they don’t like the new format and aren’t going to like it no matter what.


You might have a point there...
When I get to sample the new service, I am going to try to have an attitude of: “have low expectations, and you won’t be disappointed”...although that may be difficult to achieve, considering how much I enjoyed my last diner experiences on the Meteor and Crescent.

I will psyche myself to expect nothing, and then try to appreciate whatever is offered...


----------



## Qapla

Perception is all in the individual and their expectations ...

Some people wince at the thought of eating at McDonalds - but they are extremely popular and many people love their food
Some people would think eating at Outback or Chilis is "Great!" - while others just view their food as OK
Some love to go to "5 Star" restaurants - while those who are used to Texas Roadhouse would call the 5 Star portions "too small"
I'm sure there are some who think the new food is "just fine" while others will not be satisfied no matter how good it is since it is not "chef cooked" onboard.


----------



## tim49424

Qapla said:


> Perception is all in the individual and their expectations ...
> 
> Some people wince at the thought of eating at McDonalds - but they are extremely popular and many people love their food
> Some people would think eating at Outback or Chilis is "Great!" - while others just view their food as OK
> Some love to go to "5 Star" restaurants - while those who are used to Texas Roadhouse would call the 5 Star portions "too small"
> I'm sure there are some who think the new food is "just fine" while others will not be satisfied no matter how good it is since it is not "chef cooked" onboard.



The saying “One person’s trash is another person’s treasure” applies here. I’m riding the Cardinal and Silver Meteor in December, and while the conversation has been interesting to read, the final judge in my own opinion will be me. I do appreciate the heads up to not set my expectations very high, but I go in with a clean slate in my mind regarding yea or nay.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Mystic River Dragon said:


> By the way, I did not tip, considering I did half of the work myself. I didn't see anyone else leaving tips, either. So the OBS crews might start to get a bit annoyed about that and perhaps put in their two cents about bringing real dining back?



I did tip, only because the one attendant was working nonstop and had no help for what was at least a two-person job. Others did also, but it sounds like the experience on my trip was different from others on this thread as far as quality of service. I am not a fan of punishing front line employees for decisions over their heads and not in their control, unless of course they take their disappointment out on customers which seems to be the experience of others here.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> When I get to sample the new service, I am going to try to have an attitude of: “have low expectations, and you won’t be disappointed." I will psyche myself to expect nothing, and then try to appreciate whatever is offered.


When I visit with someone as a guest I bring no expectations and appreciate anything offered. When I spend hundreds of dollars for slow and meandering travel I have slightly higher expectations than "nothing" at all.



tim49424 said:


> The saying “One person’s trash is another person’s treasure” applies here.


Where I live trash is usually free. How much does trash cost where you live?



Qapla said:


> Perception is all in the individual and their expectations ...
> * Some people wince at the thought of eating at McDonalds - but they are extremely popular and many people love their food
> * Some people would think eating at Outback or Chilis is "Great!" - while others just view their food as OK
> * Some love to go to "5 Star" restaurants - while those who are used to Texas Roadhouse would call the 5 Star portions "too small"
> I'm sure there are some who think the new food is "just fine" while others will not be satisfied no matter how good it is since it is not "chef cooked" onboard.


I have no particular problem with McDonald's, Outback, Chili's, or Texas Roadhouse. They may not be anything to write home about quality wise, but they're all acceptable value for the time and money involved, whereas Anderson's new overnight Amchow initiative is a huge turnoff.


----------



## pennyk

Mystic River Dragon said:


> By the way, I did not tip, considering I did half of the work myself. I didn't see anyone else leaving tips, either. So the OBS crews might start to get a bit annoyed about that and perhaps put in their two cents about bringing real dining back?


I did tip on the Silver Meteor (even though I did not have an entree), but not as much as I would for table service. The LSA, who I know and knows me by name, got me drinks and hot water. He had a tip tray on the half door leading into the kitchen.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I probably would on the Meteor as well, since they have always been very helpful.

I did not mean to sound unkind--I usually tip very well. But the crew on the LSL (first time I have been on it, so I don't know if this is standard for them) in general seemed pleasant but not particularly helpful. (For example, when I was getting ready to detrain at ALB, my SCA came down the hall and said, very nicely, with a smile, "You ready?" but did not offer to carry my suitcase, which he saw I was carrying!) I did give him a tip, since he had to do the room over after I left, but not as much as I normally would.

Similarly, with the LSA, he waited for people to go up and ask him how everything worked instead of explaining as we came in (it was not busy yet).


----------



## Winecliff Station

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I probably would on the Meteor as well, since they have always been very helpful.
> 
> I did not mean to sound unkind--I usually tip very well. But the crew on the LSL (first time I have been on it, so I don't know if this is standard for them) in general seemed pleasant but not particularly helpful. (For example, when I was getting ready to detrain at ALB, my SCA came down the hall and said, very nicely, with a smile, "You ready?" but did not offer to carry my suitcase, which he saw I was carrying!) I did give him a tip, since he had to do the room over after I left, but not as much as I normally would.
> 
> Similarly, with the LSA, he waited for people to go up and ask him how everything worked instead of explaining as we came in (it was not busy yet).



I probably should have clarified I was on the Meteor, and it was 2 weeks into the new flex dining so the kinks are probably still being worked out. I haven't taken the LSL so I can't say whether or not I would have tipped on that line.


----------



## Winecliff Station

pennyk said:


> I did tip on the Silver Meteor (even though I did not have an entree), but not as much as I would for table service. The LSA, who I know and knows me by name, got me drinks and hot water. He had a tip tray on the half door leading into the kitchen.



Ours had a cardboard box lol.... I gave $1 at breakfast for getting me coffee and hot water for my oatmeal, and $5 at lunch and dinner since that involved a bit more work. Can't recall what I tipped for traditional service on the trip down since I based in on 20% of menu prices.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> Obviously some are going to go into it with a bad taste simply because they don’t like the new format and aren’t going to like it no matter what.



I went in with an open mind and was surprised how much I didn’t mind the lack of table service. The service wasn’t perfect, but it worked. 

But the food, presentation, and the selection was bad. 

I went up on the Silver meteor and returned on Delta. Here was my meal on delta compared with my meal on the Silver meteor.


----------



## tim49424

Devil's Advocate said:


> Where I live trash is usually free. How much does trash cost where you live?



Not applicable. I make the decision regarding my opinion on whether trash is trash. I have the ability to think for myself.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> I went in with an open mind and was surprised how much I didn’t mind the lack of table service. The service wasn’t perfect, but it worked.
> 
> But the food, presentation, and the selection was bad.
> 
> I went up on the Silver meteor and returned on Delta. Here was my meal on delta compared with my meal on the Silver meteor.




Thanks for the photos to compare. What Amtrak is offering is unacceptable to me as compared to what flying Delta offers. 

The previous posts about whether the Auto Train does/will or does not/ will not have a true Sightseer Lounge Car with a Dining Car also causes my doubts to return about booking the Auto Train. 

When I spend money for a trip, I want what I am buying to be as well of a known quantity as much as possible. I realize that any travel booking can be a "crap shoot". But, Amtrak on their LD services seems to becoming a more likely negative experience than a positive one.

Surely glad I rode on Silver Meteor SB and NB last Winter. Would not do it now!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

tim49424 said:


> Not applicable. I make the decision regarding my opinion on whether trash is trash. I have the ability to think for myself.


By all means please do form your own opinion. Right now Amtrak is going to need lots of customers who will accept downgrade after downgrade and call it treasure. Although somewhat counter-intuitive the best case scenario for people like me is that other passengers continue to buy enough tickets to keep Amtrak vaguely solvent until we can hopefully replace enough congresspeople and board members to eventually reverse the Mica-Andy cuts. I doubt that day is coming anytime soon, so hopefully some people discover they really enjoy Amtrak's new lean cuisine dining.


----------



## lordsigma

Manny T said:


> Is there a source for this? I find it hard to believe, having experienced both traditional dining and the "new contemporary" TV dinners.



Peter Wilander (the VP of product development and customer experience) made a comment stating that in either a interview or in the letter to RPa.


----------



## lordsigma

Dakota 400 said:


> The previous posts about whether the Auto Train does/will or does not/ will not have a true Sightseer Lounge Car with a Dining Car also causes my doubts to return about booking the Auto Train.


It’s obviously your choice but there is no doubt what your train would have. It will have a full service dining car and a lounge car that looks like what a recent photo someone posted did. The auto train is not getting flex dining. The nearly refurbished lounges are a perfectly fine lounge for this trip and there is really almost no difference than when it had the sightseer. It still has big windows and plenty of tables just not the above facing windows. This trip doesn’t have the long beautiful scenery that the western trains have so it isn’t a loss at all in my opinion. The auto train is also at night a lot of the trip. The lounge has just as many tables and I like how the bar/food service is upstairs rather than downstairs on the SSL - I think I like the current car better for the AT then when it had an SSL. It’s up to you whether you want to book it, but I just took it the other day and had a fine trip, and will be taking it next week and plan to always use it for going to Florida in the future as I always do. It’s a great way to go to Florida in my opinion and very convenient. If you prefer flying, fly, but if you prefer the train in sleepers I wouldn’t hesitate. Again though, obviously your choice.


----------



## tim49424

Devil's Advocate said:


> By all means please do form your own opinion. Right now Amtrak is going to need lots of customers who will accept downgrade after downgrade and call it treasure. Although somewhat counter-intuitive the best case scenario for people like me is that other passengers continue to buy enough tickets to keep Amtrak vaguely solvent until we can hopefully replace enough congresspeople and board members to eventually reverse the Mica-Andy cuts. I doubt that day is coming anytime soon, so hopefully some people discover they really enjoy Amtrak's new lean cuisine dining.



You've taken my words out of context. All I said was I'll form my own opinion, good or bad, when I experience it. I'm not following you down a rabbit hole just because you think the new meals are trash. They may very well be, but I'll form my own opinion and likely not share it here being that you crucify me for what you perceive me to be saying.


----------



## me_little_me

Winecliff Station said:


> So here's an interesting question.....right now the Star bookings, still listed without meal service, go into mid September. Flex dining is supposed to be added to the Star "sometime next year" if I recall reading earlier in the thread. If you book early enough out, and then in the interim flexible dining is added, does this mean you would get these so-called meals free of charge? I'd hate to pay extra for them if the fare goes up to match the Meteor.


Is that like Amtrak allowing a mixture of points and cash for tickets "in the near future" (or some such words) that we heard years ago?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> I'm not following you down a rabbit hole just because you think the new meals are trash. They may very well be, but I'll form my own opinion and likely not share it here being that you crucify me for what you perceive me to be saying.



Please do share your thoughts. I’ll ask this question... does the current menu and photos that you’ve seen sound / look appealing to you?


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> They have claimed they are actually spending more now on the actual food than they were. I guess you just have to take them at their word with that claim. But if it’s true and if people are reacting negatively across the board they should hold them accountable and make sure they are delivering the best product possible for the format. But I guess again the question is, is it simple a matter of lousy quality meals being delivered or is it the on board preparation that’s the problem when people have had bad experiences? Obviously some are going to go into it with a bad taste simply because they don’t like the new format and aren’t going to like it no matter what.


That's perfectly normal. Prepackaged food costs a lot more than fresher ingredients you have to spend time cooking yourself. Compare the Chicken-little Alfredo with the previous chicken dinner. You got a lot more chicken and a lot fewer carbs. while it wasn't fresh, it tasted a lot fresher than noodle-roney with a hint of chicken. What if they just had the old food on the new mini-plastic plates with plastic cutlery, no tablecloths, min-salad and no cloth napkins? That would be closer to a true comparison of "food costs". Then the real difference would be between "you want fries with that?" and someone actually cooking and another actually serving.


----------



## tim49424

crescent-zephyr said:


> Please do share your thoughts. I’ll ask this question... does the current menu and photos that you’ve seen sound / look appealing to you?



They don't....but looks can be deceiving. That's why I'm withholding my opinion until I experience them. Also, see, I'll be judged badly if I end up liking what I eat to any extent. I am already, apparently, for keeping an open mind until next month. FWIW, I had breakfasts on the LSL last month from CHI-SYR and back and they weren't all that bad. I don't want to be seen as supporting the cuts, but food is not my highest priority when travelling by train. It's the train travel itself.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I get that, I still enjoyed my trip on the silver meteor very much.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

tim49424 said:


> You've taken my words out of context. All I said was I'll form my own opinion, good or bad, when I experience it. I'm not following you down a rabbit hole just because you think the new meals are trash. They may very well be, but I'll form my own opinion and likely not share it here being that you crucify me for what you perceive me to be saying.


Crucify? There's no need to be melodramatic. If you're concerned about criticism I won't make any comment on your opinion of flexible dining if you post it.


----------



## tim49424

Devil's Advocate said:


> Crucify? There's no need to be melodramatic. If you're concerned about criticism I won't make any comment on your opinion of flexible dining if you post it.



Not necessary. Just FYI, reacting to your accusations, assumptions and taking my words out of context is not being melodramatic, sorry to inform you. Enough said, I'm done with this needless back and forth. I don't like doing this.


----------



## MARC Rider

me_little_me said:


> What if they just had the old food on the new mini-plastic plates with plastic cutlery, no tablecloths, min-salad and no cloth napkins? That would be closer to a true comparison of "food costs".


You do realize that the food, except for the steaks, in the "traditional dining" is also precooked? I guess I'll find out next week whether the actual dishes they selected for this "flex dining" are really as bad as everybody seems to say they are.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> You do realize that the food, except for the steaks, in the "traditional dining" is also precooked? I guess I'll find out next week whether the actual dishes they selected for this "flex dining" are really as bad as everybody seems to say they are.



Yes and no. I mean technically there were a few items that were also fully cooked on board. Scrambled eggs & Baked Potaoes for sure. 

But then it gets tricky... many items like the salmon, crab cakes, and chicken were pre-cooked... but how were they re-heated? It seems to me they were cooked on a grill, not just reheated in a convection oven. 

The salads were assembled on board. 

And for sure the items were cooked separately. Meaning the mashed potatoes, steamed veggies, and entree were not all pre-cooked, frozen, and then reheated in the same plate. 

I’ve mentioned before the chef position should have remained and the LSA position should have been cut, leaving the sleeper attendants responsible for serving the food.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve mentioned before the chef position should have remained and the LSA position should have been cut, leaving the sleeper attendants responsible for serving the food.


That technically isn’t correct as I said in an earlier post. Officially all the dining car posts were eliminated and a “working alone” LSA position was created on each crew and awarded based on seniority. It is a different position and job from the “Lead Service Attendant - Diner” that existed in traditional dining. There may be some chefs that got the LSA job. I think it’s really a matter of semantics. It would be hard for any single person dining car crew to prepare fresh made ingredients and also have to serve them whether called a chef or LSA. Conceivably if they did a single food service area serving all passengers as they are hinting with both employees working together you could get better food for both coach and sleeper passengers but I guess we’ll have to see on that front.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> That technically isn’t correct as I said in an earlier post. Officially all the dining car posts were eliminated and a “working alone” LSA position was created on each crew and awarded based on seniority. It is a different position and job from the “Lead Service Attendant - Diner” that existed in traditional dining. There may be some chefs that got the LSA job. I think it’s really a matter of semantics. It would be hard for any single person dining car crew to prepare fresh made ingredients and also have to serve them whether called a chef or LSA. Conceivably if they did a single food service area serving all passengers as they are hinting with both employees working together you could get better food for both coach and sleeper passengers but I guess we’ll have to see on that front.



And you are correct in that it is a new position. I don't argue that. My point said more clear is that they should have left the Chef position as it was and cut everyone else. The chef was already preparing and plating all the food for both coach and sleeper passengers eating in the diner.... seems like it would be all the easier to prepare the food for only the sleeping car passengers.

Maybe a few items wouldn't be practical... like the steaks cooked to order for example. I'm not sure. But the basic food quality would have stayed instead of going downhill.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> I guess I'll find out next week whether the actual dishes they selected for this "flex dining" are really as bad as everybody seems to say they are.



I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.


----------



## me_little_me

MARC Rider said:


> You do realize that the food, except for the steaks, in the "traditional dining" is also precooked? I guess I'll find out next week whether the actual dishes they selected for this "flex dining" are really as bad as everybody seems to say they are.


Yes I do but somehow serving real food on real plates with real cutlery and real napkins and tablecloths make it seem a lot better. And that includes real service.

I'm amazed at how much people concentrate on the food, though, and ignore the far bigger fall (elbeit less important) service in the "Diner".


----------



## pennyk

MARC Rider said:


> You do realize that the food, except for the steaks, in the "traditional dining" is also precooked? I guess I'll find out next week whether the actual dishes they selected for this "flex dining" are really as bad as everybody seems to say they are.


Even if some of the "traditional dining" entrees are precooked, the chef is able to modify them. The chicken, steak or fish can be served with or without sauce. Baked potato can be subbed for rice. Double green beans can be subbed for starch and green beans. There are no modifications available with the current version of the flex dining meals. In my situation (I have an allergy to garlic), I am able to eat a few of the tradtional dining entrees, but none of the flex dining entrees.


----------



## TEREB

Let me preface this by saying we've traveled on the meteor 2-6 times a year for the past 12 years. I have always enjoyed the food, most especially the seafood. Even the dry salmon was always tasty. 
We were on the Meteor on Oct 13-14th. I was so looking forward to trying the new dining. 
The only meal I enjoyed was breakfast.
For dinner, my husband and I had the shrimp. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't good either. The sausage way way too spicy and dry and the shrimp was also spicy and overcooked. Rice was tasty though. There were 4 shrimp and it was served piping hot. I would order this again, but I wouldn't touch the sausage. 
For lunch the next day I had the Asian noodles. I asked for it to be warmed. This was also a spicy dish, but no where near as spicy as the the sausage from the shrimp plate. Problem was the noodles were gummy. All stuck together. Taste did not impress me. 
My husband had the chicken alfredo. It was so over cooked that the noodles and the alfredo sauce had the nasty taste of overcooked broccoli. Everything was mushy. There were about 6 small chunks of chicken that tasted of unseasoned boiled chicken. 
I am so disappointed. I miss my veggie burger.


----------



## tonys96

Still recall all those who laughed at us who saw the slippery slope a while back when the "amenities" were being cut. 
My guess: The bottom of the slope still has yet to be reached. Sadly. Sad that our kids may never get the chance to experience what we did in the past. 

But, we only rarely experienced what our elders experienced. Sadly.

I hope everyone who desires it, can book a trip on a LD Western train route soon, to get the full diner experience, with a real SSL, and see America, meet fellow travelers, share time and friendship with them and the train crew, and live a disappearing part of Americana.

Soon being the keyword. Before it does slowly die of a thousand "small and insignificant" cuts.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

tonys96 said:


> Still recall all those who laughed at us who saw the slippery slope a while back when the "amenities" were being cut.


I remember seeing concerned customers repeatedly mocked by proudly indifferent members. People who it turns out probably don't ride long distance passenger rail on a regular basis and thus have little reason to notice or care. Which is fair enough, but if you really don't care then why bother shouting down those who do? Never understood that whole dynamic.


----------



## daybeers

TEREB said:


> Let me preface this by saying we've traveled on the meteor 2-6 times a year for the past 12 years. I have always enjoyed the food, most especially the seafood. Even the dry salmon was always tasty.
> We were on the Meteor on Oct 13-14th. I was so looking forward to trying the new dining.
> The only meal I enjoyed was breakfast.
> For dinner, my husband and I had the shrimp. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't good either. The sausage way way too spicy and dry and the shrimp was also spicy and overcooked. Rice was tasty though. There were 4 shrimp and it was served piping hot. I would order this again, but I wouldn't touch the sausage.
> For lunch the next day I had the Asian noodles. I asked for it to be warmed. This was also a spicy dish, but no where near as spicy as the the sausage from the shrimp plate. Problem was the noodles were gummy. All stuck together. Taste did not impress me.
> My husband had the chicken alfredo. It was so over cooked that the noodles and the alfredo sauce had the nasty taste of overcooked broccoli. Everything was mushy. There were about 6 small chunks of chicken that tasted of unseasoned boiled chicken.
> I am so disappointed. I miss my veggie burger.


Thanks for the review! I hope you've told Amtrak Customer Relations about this, but if not, please do!


----------



## lexingtonbud

We had our first Breakfast on the Lakeshore Limited the other day. There was nothing available without sugar. Nothing. And no oatmeal without sugar. And not a roll. What a shame.


----------



## jimmrl

Breakfast on Acela this morning, I enjoyed it.


----------



## lexingtonbud

Doesn't look like what we offered on the Lakeshore Ltd.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jimmrl said:


> View attachment 15371
> 
> Breakfast on Acela this morning, I enjoyed it.


Looks pretty good except for the Pepsi!


----------



## Manny T

Not sure why Amtrak isn't going for Acela type meals for the sleeper PAX now subject to "contemporary" dining.

Couldn't Amtrak just load the Acela type meals in the dining car, have sleeper PAX make their selections (or even pre-order), LSA heats them up and PAX pick them up at the counter (or get served in their room), as we do now with the TV dinners?


----------



## Qapla

Bob Dylan said:


> Looks pretty good except for the Pepsi!



I'll agree with that ... now, if you removed the word "Diet" from that can you would have a winning breakfast (somehow, a red can just wouldn't look right sitting on that table)


----------



## Anderson

jimmrl said:


> View attachment 15371
> 
> Breakfast on Acela this morning, I enjoyed it.


It looks good...

...but what _is_ it?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

It doesn't match anything on the Acela menus... it does look a bit odd and not really any better than the Contemporary dining fare. At least it's presented nicely.


----------



## keelhauled

They appear to be Denver Egg Bites.

Actually, judging by the amtrakfoodfacts.com URL, the Acela got a new first class menu yesterday, while amtrak.com still has one from May.


----------



## Dakota 400

Anderson said:


> It looks good...
> 
> ...but what _is_ it?



That is what I am wondering.


----------



## Anderson

Interesting on the Egg Bytes...which I typed and I'm sticking with...

My best guess had been some sort of mashed potatoes.


----------



## seat38a

Anderson said:


> It looks good...
> 
> ...but what _is_ it?


Looks like sous vide eggs. Its the current gimmick going around. Starbucks has had it for a while.


----------



## SarahZ

I thought it was a strange, sad form of Eggs Benedict. After reading the description, I'd still try them.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Manny T said:


> Not sure why Amtrak isn't going for Acela type meals for the sleeper PAX now subject to "contemporary" dining.
> 
> Couldn't Amtrak just load the Acela type meals in the dining car, have sleeper PAX make their selections (or even pre-order), LSA heats them up and PAX pick them up at the counter (or get served in their room), as we do now with the TV dinners?



You'd have to find a vendor that had these meals (or something similar) available for stocking at each endpoint or turnaround location. The specific ACALA meals are not readily available outside the NEC. Some of them actually are only loaded at NYP.

At any rate, the salmon looks quite dry...almost as dry as that shrimp dish. I hope it tasted better.


----------



## lordsigma

daybeers said:


> Hoooold on...they got rid of the SSL on the Auto Train?



My northbound auto train return trip today appears to have a SSL. So much for consistency!


----------



## Ryan

There are 5 Auto Train lounge cars (converted from diners). If they get rotated out for maintenance, sometimes a "regular" SSL will pinch hit.


----------



## lordsigma

Ryan said:


> There are 5 Auto Train lounge cars (converted from diners). If they get rotated out for maintenance, sometimes a "regular" SSL will pinch hit.



I am guessing this SSL is a permanent auto train lounge car converted from a normal SSL. It has tables like the diner based auto train lounge rather than the normal SSL seating found on western trains.


----------



## Ryan

But it has wrap around SSL windows?


----------



## Rail Freak

Any Photos floating around?


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

It’s been almost a month now and the reviews are mostly fair to terrible on the actual flex dining food. The silence from RPA is deafening. The last three or four Friday updates haven’t mentioned the dining changes. In fact they haven’t mentioned the changes at all since they’ve been implemented.

Instead they are concentrating the majority of the weekly updates on fluff like their pipe dream contest, “what would your favorite new route be?”

I wanted to give RPA the benefit of the doubt but it really appears they don’t want to go head to head with Amtrak management at all.


----------



## Manny T

It seems like some of the criticisms of the new contemporary dining voiced on AU have had a real impact on Amtrak management, with some changes and upgrades in the service that are positive.

It would be sad if other forums miss the chance to voice their opinions and have an impact.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I wrote to Amtrak after my ride on the meteor... I got not response.


----------



## lordsigma

Ryan said:


> But it has wrap around SSL windows?



Yes and food service downstairs .


----------



## lordsigma

Rail Freak said:


> Any Photos floating around?



I’ll take one tomorrow morning.


----------



## Billvasili

Palmland said:


> Our A-T trip had a modified CCC car used as the lounge for the sleepers. It appeared to be recently refurbished and was attractive and comfortable. With the train only about 1/3 full it wasn’t full. Maybe a dozen passengers enjoying a glass of wine or drinks before dinner. Since there was only one dinner seating, half the car was then set for dinner. We met interesting couples and found it more enjoyable than regular Amtrak lounges for socializing. Perfect for this train where the scenery is pine



Where is the placement of the sleeper lounge car in the consist?


----------



## Qapla

This seems to have been the consist as of 2017 - Don't know if this is still current


----------



## neroden

Amtrakfflyer said:


> It’s been almost a month now and the reviews are mostly fair to terrible on the actual flex dining food. The silence from RPA is deafening. The last three or four Friday updates haven’t mentioned the dining changes. In fact they haven’t mentioned the changes at all since they’ve been implemented.
> 
> Instead they are concentrating the majority of the weekly updates on fluff like their pipe dream contest, “what would your favorite new route be?”
> 
> I wanted to give RPA the benefit of the doubt but it really appears they don’t want to go head to head with Amtrak management at all.



News from the RPA conference in Sacramento:

Chef Madi Butler, who has a career in high-volume food service, is making this her top priority. It's not clear exactly who in Amtrak management is responsible for the disastrous implemention of "Contemporary Dining", but we know for a fact that Amtrak management, prior to implementing "Contemporary Dining", were informed with specificity about the problems for people with dietary restrictions and given a list of (cheap or even money-saving) changes which would make the service more tolerable.... and Amtrak proceeded to ignore them entirely. (The most extreme example: it was suggested that they provide plain oatmeal with sugar on the side, which is cheaper than the presugared oatmeal and can be eaten by a lot more people. Amtrak ignored this suggestion.)

The President of RPA, Jim Mathews, has several food allergies himself and is personally affected. Be assured, getting a tolerable food selection back on the trains is *very much* a priority of RPA. I am told that Congresspeople are being directly contacted about the issue as we speak. 

Please do contact your Congresspeople about it yourself, since the more constituents they hear from, the more attention they'll pay to RPA's campaign.

Thank you.

P.S. The "route contest" is because there is apparently a mood in Congress to provide a pot of funding dedicated to new routes, and if this happens we want to direct it to something which we can all back, so it doesn't get diverted somewhere stupid.


----------



## me_little_me

daybeers said:


> Thanks for the review! I hope you've told Amtrak Customer Relations about this, but if not, please do!


My message to them at the time I posted my comment about the service as well as the food on my Crescent trip has resulted in no reply whatsoever.

Actually, I'm also surprised at the lack of comments on this thread to the new (lack of) service wherein you get your own food and clean your own table.


----------



## Anderson

Jim and I were texting back and forth this morning as I "enjoyed" the contemporary dining (by which I mean that I had the breakfast sandwich and then heated up a pork-maple sausage patty from an MRE on the platform in JAX and the breakfast sandwich came out wanting). In plain language, I would rather take the Star than the Meteor at this point, because at least with the Star I'm not paying for a breakfast that doesn't deserve that name. Next trip, I'll be declining to eat the breakfast, full stop.

Lunch was the shrimp and sausage. It wasn't too bad (I only ate it out of professional obligation, to be honest, though I suspect that, referencing the above line, anything tastes decent with enough spice thrown on) but it was delivered to my room and whomever decided to start pushing that should find a handy sword to fall on because the overall service delivery there absolutely _sucks_. This isn't to knock the crew (who were doing their best under the circumstances), but as long as I'm not under the weather (or some other odd circumstance hasn't attached) I'm going to flat-out refuse in-room food service _ever_. They can take that model and stick it where the sun don't shine.

I will concede that I enjoy being able to lounge in the (ex-)diner at will but I'm still going to call a net negative on that change.

So...yeah, I wish that the _Star_ and _Meteor_ had flipped schedules SB. I'd make no bones about skipping the new meals at this point.


----------



## Rasputin

me_little_me said:


> Actually, I'm also surprised at the lack of comments on this thread to the new (lack of) service wherein you get your own food and clean your own table.



That is why these cars should be called "Picnic Table Cars" instead of dining cars and the service should be called "Picnic Service." It is just like a picnic. You get your food, carry it to your picnic table and clean up for yourself after you are done (unless you are a slob in which case you leave the mess for others to clean up.)


----------



## lordsigma

Qapla said:


> This seems to have been the consist as of 2017 - Don't know if this is still current
> View attachment 15374




here is the Auto Train former SSL lounge car. I have actually seen this car on all my auto train trips except one (where I saw the former diner lounge.) perhaps the AT lounges are a mix of former diners and former SSL?


----------



## jiml

lordsigma said:


> View attachment 15384
> here is the Auto Train former SSL lounge car. I have actually seen this car on all my auto train trips except one (where I saw the former diner lounge.) perhaps the AT lounges are a mix of former diners and former SSL?


I'm old enough to remember when that would have been called a "dome diner", and it actually looks like those operated by Rocky Mountaineer and Alaska Railroad, not to mention the dining end of the PPC's.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> I'm old enough to remember when that would have been called a "dome diner", and it actually looks like those operated by Rocky Mountaineer and Alaska Railroad, not to mention the dining end of the PPC's.



As a kid I would look through the Amtrak travel magazines (yesss I was that kid) and beg my parents to take me on the auto train so that I could ride in the dome diner! Years ago I got my wish on the Iowa Pacific Hoosier State. A true dome dimer is pretty special! 

This photo looks identical to the regular SSL cars though.. don't they all have this configuration? Or is it tables all the way through on this car?


----------



## railiner

Prior to Amtrak, only the Union Pacific's City of Portland and City of Los Angeles had "true" dome diner's, built new by ACF as 'short' domes...probably the greatest dining experience was dining while passing thru the Columbia Gorge....
https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/documents/up_pdf_nativedocs/pdf_city_of_portland.pdf

https://www.google.com/search?q=uni...BAgIEAE&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=_rmq-IjslfxIUM:


----------



## Winecliff Station

This change is by all accounts so outrageous and absurd.... and getting the reaction we all expected...that I can’t help wondering if it’s being used as a distraction away from something bigger yet to come. A red herring as they call it.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> As a kid I would look through the Amtrak travel magazines (yesss I was that kid) and beg my parents to take me on the auto train so that I could ride in the dome diner! Years ago I got my wish on the Iowa Pacific Hoosier State. A true dome dimer is pretty special!
> 
> This photo looks identical to the regular SSL cars though.. don't they all have this configuration? Or is it tables all the way through on this car?



It’s all tables. It doesn’t have the side seating on one end that the regular SSLs have. Essentially the only difference with the other lounges on the auto train is the windows and the downstairs food service. When I have seen this car on the auto train it’s always been the sleeper lounge while coach had the former diner style lounge.


----------



## JRR

me_little_me said:


> My message to them at the time I posted my comment about the service as well as the food on my Crescent trip has resulted in no reply whatsoever.
> 
> Actually, I'm also surprised at the lack of comments on this thread to the new (lack of) service wherein you get your own food and clean your own table.



I’ll be commenting when we get back from ur extended trip. The Crescent was horrible - very late, limited selection of food and beverages(out of a lot), and poor service. I’ll have a detailed report later.


----------



## Palmetto

How do people who are mobility challenged get their food in the new system? It's tricky to move on a train that's in motion, especially if you have one or both hands full.


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> Prior to Amtrak, only the Union Pacific's City of Portland and City of Los Angeles had "true" dome diner's, built new by ACF as 'short' domes...probably the greatest dining experience was dining while passing thru the Columbia Gorge....
> https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/documents/up_pdf_nativedocs/pdf_city_of_portland.pdf
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=uni...BAgIEAE&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=_rmq-IjslfxIUM:


What great photos! Gentlemen dressed in coat and tie, ladies dressed nicely, and a Dining Car Steward in a white coat and bow tie!

Poor grammar, I know, but "them were the days" as Archie Bunker would say.


----------



## pennyk

Palmetto said:


> How do people who are mobility challenged get their food in the new system? It's tricky to move on a train that's in motion, especially if you have one or both hands full.


Their sleeping car attendant will deliver the food to them, either in their room or in the sleeper lounge. During my last Silver Meteor trip, I saw the LSA deliver food to passengers who may have had issues with carrying their food to the tables. Also, other passengers helped.


----------



## tim49424

Dakota 400 said:


> Poor grammar, I know, but "them were the days" as Archie Bunker would say.



More like, “Those were the days”.


----------



## drfonta

Anderson said:


> Jim and I were texting back and forth this morning as I "enjoyed" the contemporary dining (by which I mean that I had the breakfast sandwich and then heated up a pork-maple sausage patty from an MRE on the platform in JAX and the breakfast sandwich came out wanting). In plain language, I would rather take the Star than the Meteor at this point, because at least with the Star I'm not paying for a breakfast that doesn't deserve that name. Next trip, I'll be declining to eat the breakfast, full stop.
> 
> Lunch was the shrimp and sausage. It wasn't too bad (I only ate it out of professional obligation, to be honest, though I suspect that, referencing the above line, anything tastes decent with enough spice thrown on) but it was delivered to my room and whomever decided to start pushing that should find a handy sword to fall on because the overall service delivery there absolutely _sucks_. This isn't to knock the crew (who were doing their best under the circumstances), but as long as I'm not under the weather (or some other odd circumstance hasn't attached) I'm going to flat-out refuse in-room food service _ever_. They can take that model and stick it where the sun don't shine.
> 
> I will concede that I enjoy being able to lounge in the (ex-)diner at will but I'm still going to call a net negative on that change.
> 
> So...yeah, I wish that the _Star_ and _Meteor_ had flipped schedules SB. I'd make no bones about skipping the new meals at this point.


Thank you for the report. I'm switched to the Star in March NYP to DLD. Even though the trip is a couple hours longer, I prefer the earlier departure out of NYP. Return trip is Meteor. Will just pack food and go for the cafe if needed.


----------



## Rasputin

pennyk said:


> Their sleeping car attendant will deliver the food to them, either in their room or in the sleeper lounge. During my last Silver Meteor trip, I saw the LSA deliver food to passengers who may have had issues with carrying their food to the tables. Also, other passengers helped.


From what I could observe on the Lake Shore in May, there are a number of passengers, including some elderly and infirm with canes, who prefer to eat in the so-called dining car instead of the cramped quarters of their roomette. During breakfast the LSA would often bring food to these passengers at their table which was possible because the passengers didn't come in for breakfast all at the same time. This service wasn't possible at lunch because many passengers came in for lunch about the same time and the LSA was kept busy preparing the orders. There was a lot of grumbling as people stood waiting in line on a moving train for their food.


----------



## Dakota 400

tim49424 said:


> More like, “Those were the days”.




"Them" or "Those" days are days that are now long gone. But, they remain in my memory and experience for which I am most grateful.


----------



## RSG

Dakota 400 said:


> "Them" or "Those" days are days that are now long gone. But, they remain in my memory and experience for which I am most grateful.


At least you're not old enough to remember the heydays of the LaSalle...


----------



## Anderson

RSG said:


> At least you're not old enough to remember the heydays of the LaSalle...


The train or the Buick?


----------



## RSG

Anderson said:


> The train or the Buick?


Neither, technically...I was referring to the automobile mentioned in the opening theme to _All In The Family_, which is in the last verse featured in the show---"Gee, our old LaSalle ran great.._[chorus]_ those were the days!"

Incidentally, that line used to be one of the biggest questions about the show, with numerous people asking trivia columnists and even some of the cast what it actually was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaSalle_(automobile)


----------



## tim49424

RSG said:


> At least you're not old enough to remember the heydays of the LaSalle...



I know I'm not....but at least I'm old enough to have watched _All in the Family_ in it's first run! Now I can watch it anytime I want to as I have it on DVD!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Anderson said:


> The train or the Buick?


It was a GM Car Cliff, but closer to a Cadillac than a Buick.


----------



## Anderson

Bob Dylan said:


> It was a GM Car Cliff, but closer to a Cadillac than a Buick.


I checked and I mixed up the separate badge with the concept car proposed in the 60s.

(Incidentally, I'm in the process of selling off my mother's old Mercedes convertible...I was never quite able to drive it like it needed to be driven, partly because I was afraid of getting a dent in the can't-be-replaced windshield...and am looking at getting an old Cadillac land yacht.)


----------



## Anderson

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/life/...cle_5179c3c8-962b-5ced-bc38-f5903858b436.html

A review. The writer picked up on the large shift in demand between the diners and the cafes from a different angle (and one I did not weigh), namely swamping the cafe.


----------



## JC_620

Winecliff Station said:


> This change is by all accounts so outrageous and absurd.... and getting the reaction we all expected...that I can’t help wondering if it’s being used as a distraction away from something bigger yet to come. A red herring as they call it.


Good point. I can't help but think that this might be the beginning of the end.....


----------



## Winecliff Station

Anderson said:


> https://www.wvgazettemail.com/life/...cle_5179c3c8-962b-5ced-bc38-f5903858b436.html
> 
> A review. The writer picked up on the large shift in demand between the diners and the cafes from a different angle (and one I did not weigh), namely swamping the cafe.



“Economic segregation”.... this is becoming a trend in the cruise industry as well, and mostly surrounding food service with restricted dining areas. There seems to be an acceleration lately in cheapening the basic or economy level of travel whether flying, cruising or taking the train. Maybe Amtrak is just following the trend.


----------



## Palmetto

Good. Because I read somewhere that the LSAs have been told they are not allowed to bring food to the table anymore.


----------



## Palmetto

Has anyone ever traveled on Cunard? The dining room you eat in is determined by the type of cabin you paid for.


----------



## OBS

Palmetto said:


> Good. Because I read somewhere that the LSAs have been told they are not allowed to bring food to the table anymore.


I don't believe that.


----------



## Winecliff Station

Palmetto said:


> Has anyone ever traveled on Cunard? The dining room you eat in is determined by the type of cabin you paid for.



Yes, it is and has always been that way, but up until recently was in a class by itself with that system. Other cruise lines are now starting to follow that model, but the problem is that Cunard ships contemplate that system when being built, so there are sufficient non- premium public spaces available. The other lines joining the party are shrinking the currently available public spaces by allocating some to the higher paying cabins and others to pay-for-entry spaces such as the Sanctuary on Princess ships.


----------



## cocojacoby

I rode the AT twice in the last year, once with the SSL and the other time with the converted diner. Although I love the SSL, it is kind of wasted on this train. First of all it is a fantastic car, very bright and inviting. However the serving area is downstairs and people were not aware of it. There was a crudely made hand-written sign saying the cafe was downstairs. Also the attendant came upstairs a few times to tell passengers that there was food and drinks available downstairs since no one was going down there. There is also a small seating area on the lower level.

It's important to note that the scenery on the route is not that great. Pretty monotonous trees most of the way. Also a majority of the passengers on the AT are on the elderly side and climbing up and down those stairs with food-in-hand is a bit daunting.

When the train was equipped with the converted diner it had the serving area in the center of the upper level and it was pretty busy. So even though I really appreciated the pleasure of riding in this beautiful railcar, I reluctantly have to say it probably could be used better somewhere else.

This is what the converted diner looks like:


----------



## jis

Winecliff Station said:


> “Economic segregation”.... this is becoming a trend in the cruise industry as well, and mostly surrounding food service with restricted dining areas. There seems to be an acceleration lately in cheapening the basic or economy level of travel whether flying, cruising or taking the train. Maybe Amtrak is just following the trend.


Economic (and other forms of) segregation in transportation was pretty much invented by the railroads among others. Nothing new there. Yes there have been periodic deviations from the economic segregation, but it is not like there is some huge novelty in that sort of segregation on trains. The Canadian is still fully economically segregated into multiple segments even today. Amtrak is just returning to the railroad roots in a manner of speaking as the country lurches towards the .  Now only if they would get back to the old standards of Diner service for the upper class.


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## crescent-zephyr

Coach passengers can eat in the diner on the Canadian. I was seated with them once for dinner.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Coach passengers can eat in the diner on the Canadian. I was seated with them once for dinner.


Yes, sometimes they are allowed to do so, but there is no guarantee that they will be allowed to do so. At least that is what the Train Service Chief told me. Maybe that has changed now.

Even in classic Amtrak Diner, Coach passengers got to use the Diner after Sleeper passengers were all accommodated in the classic Dining service. When I was a lowly Coach passenger back in my student days there were many occasions when I could not get service in the Diner. It was hit or miss.

But the fact still remains that fare class based segregation of service has never been all that unusual in transportation (rail or otherwise) as some are trying to make it out to be here. Indeed that is partly the reason there are fare classes.


----------



## PVD

Cruise lines that don't have classed dining still usually have added cost restaurants for those willing/able to pay more. Even on airlines with single class cabins like Southwest let people pay more to get on first and have a better shot at the seats and bin space they want.


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## Rail Freak

jis said:


> Economic (and other forms of) segregation in transportation was pretty much invented by the railroads among others. Nothing new there. Yes there have been periodic deviations from the economic segregation, but it is not like there is some huge novelty in that sort of segregation on trains. The Canadian is still fully economically segregated into multiple segments even today. Amtrak is just returning to the railroad roots in a manner of speaking as the country lurches towards the .  Now only if they would get back to the old standards of Diner service for the upper class.


May be a little off subject, but GOOGLE Fanny Mae Duncan!!!


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## Dakota 400

cocojacoby said:


> Also a majority of the passengers on the AT are on the elderly side and climbing up and down those stairs with food-in-hand is a bit daunting.



Elderly or not, it is a very challenging experience to do! I have said this before, but if the service area at the top of the steps on the SSL were used to sell beverages and snacks, as once was done, Amtrak would get more of my money when I am in the SSL.


----------



## TiBike

Palmetto said:


> Has anyone ever traveled on Cunard? The dining room you eat in is determined by the type of cabin you paid for.



I was on the last transatlantic trip of the QE2, in steerage (or whatever the lowest class is called). Only twin beds in the rooms – hanky panky is a privilege reserved for the upper classes. The whole point of a Cunard trip is to experience life as it might have been during the golden age of ocean travel. Strict class segregation – the QE2 even separated elevators by class, with no access to unauthorised decks.

Except for the first and last nights, the rule was only evening attire (i.e. black tie) is allowed after 6pm outside of your cabin, although it's mostly enforced by peer (peerage?) pressure. There was a cafe on a lower deck that'll serve you regardless, if you're brave enough to run the gauntlet of glares from fellow passengers.

Members of the Cunard Critics chat board organised a tour of the all the decks and most of the different staterooms, so we got to see how the other half lived. And passengers with upper class accomodations were allowed to bring guests into their grill rooms for drinks, so we had a chance to experience life at the top.

It was a lot of fun.


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## Winecliff Station

TiBike said:


> I was on the last transatlantic trip of the QE2, in steerage (or whatever the lowest class is called). Only twin beds in the rooms – hanky panky is a privilege reserved for the upper classes. The whole point of a Cunard trip is to experience life as it might have been during the golden age of ocean travel. Strict class segregation – the QE2 even separated elevators by class, with no access to unauthorised decks.
> 
> Except for the first and last nights, the rule was only evening attire (i.e. black tie) is allowed after 6pm outside of your cabin, although it's mostly enforced by peer (peerage?) pressure. There was a cafe on a lower deck that'll serve you regardless, if you're brave enough to run the gauntlet of glares from fellow passengers.
> 
> Members of the Cunard Critics chat board organised a tour of the all the decks and most of the different staterooms, so we got to see how the other half lived. And passengers with upper class accomodations were allowed to bring guests into their grill rooms for drinks, so we had a chance to experience life at the top.
> 
> It was a lot of fun.



That was a wonderful crossing, side by side with the QM2 and sailing under the Verrazano for the last time. That was the only time we had the pleasure of sailing Princess Grill, but if it weren’t for the final crossing I would not have spent the extra as I didn’t find it worth the cost.

I remember that sailing there was a passenger with a whippet who was a service dog, named Devo


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## TiBike

What I still think about was the departure from Southampton, escorted by the QM2 and a P&O ship, and dozens, maybe hundreds, of yachts (to use term expansively ). True, the Princess Grill was pricey, but I had a drink there and kinda wished I'd sprung for it. The trip was priceless.


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## me_little_me

OBS said:


> I don't believe that.


Well talked to a phone agent and she confirmed it. I doubt she would know whether servers were told to not serve passengers at the table unless it is widely known within Amtrak. It's a big savings not having to tip for the non-service for the two of us.


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## me_little_me

Anderson said:


> https://www.wvgazettemail.com/life/...cle_5179c3c8-962b-5ced-bc38-f5903858b436.html
> 
> A review. The writer picked up on the large shift in demand between the diners and the cafes from a different angle (and one I did not weigh), namely swamping the cafe.


Yeah, but he sugar coated the complaints.


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## Winecliff Station

I found mostly NY pictures from that crossing but there may be more on my old laptop


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## Dakota 400

Since conversation has turned to Cunard--which is interesting to me and I hope as others as well--I'll add my experiences on a trans-Atlantic from Hamburg-Southamption-New York on QE2 in Tourist Class. My traveling companion and I paid more per day for this cruise than we had sailing from New York to Copenhagen for 10 days followed by a 14 day North Cape Cruise on Royal Viking Sky in 1980. My traveling companion's daily lament was "when is this garbage barge going to get to New York?"

The ship was having labor problems. One wash cloth from Hamburg to Southampton with a second one available after day one from sailing from Southampton. No more after that. Sailing day lunch from Southampton, I ordered a small steak. I was served liver. A surly cabin steward (who was not ours) when we requested a second copy of a daily program, one for both of us. Tea service in a large Tourist Class lounge was provided with china that had cracks and no tea spoons. I have a photo of my friend stirring his tea with his pen knife. We complained to the Hotel Department on the first day from Hamburg with what we were experiencing. Shortly, sailing from Southampton, a Hotel Department Officer knocked on our cabiin door--JUST AFTER we had encountered with the surly Cabin Steward--he apologized for both of the situations, but nothing changed.

One outstanding memory, though, is a Deck Steward's service on a windy and cool July morning when I was the sole guest who appeared on the Tourist Class aft open deck to spend some time in the open air in a deck chair. The gentleman erected a chair, got a blanket and tucked me in, and I ordered a Bloody Mary. Quickly, he arrived with the glass on a tray he was holding. A gust of wind caught the tray and spilled the drink towards him so that his uniform was coated with Bloody Mary. He apologized (like it was his fault). He returned shortly dressed in a clean uniform with a Bloody Mary that I enjoyed. This was the Cunard service that I expected. He received a generous gratuity on the invoice slip that I signed.

Many years later, I booked a QM2 Caribbean cruise with "fingers" crossed. My cabin category placed me in the standard restaurant. Other than an over officious Table Cabin, the cruise met my expectations and allowed me to meet other friends on that cruise with whom I am still in touch.


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## pennyk

Please return the conversation to the topic of Amtrak Flex Dining. Other topics (such as food on cruise ships) may be discussed in the lounge.

Thank you.


----------



## railbuck

pennyk said:


> Please return the conversation to the topic of Amtrak Flex Dining. Other topics (such as food on cruise ships) may be discussed in the lounge.
> 
> Thank you.


Depending on one's class of service, that may be the Sightseer Lounge or the Sleeper Lounge.


----------



## Anderson

Economic segregation and/or product segmentation are not, in and of themselves, absolute evils. I actually think Cunard (per the lengthy sidebar) shows this. The problem is when they come at the expense of a marketable/passable experience. IIRC, most of the older trains either had a diner on both sides of the barrier, the diner was a shared space, or the split was carried out at the _train_ level (e.g. _20th Century Limited_ vs _Commodore Vanderbilt_) rather than within the train. Tossing the third option aside outside of some high-traffic routes (e.g. the _Acela_), Amtrak mostly took the latter route (with the exception of the first few years of the _Super Chief/El Capitan_, a decision that was more down to transitional inertia than anything). This isn't to say that you might not have dedicated sleeper lounge space (e.g. the Sun Lounge on the old _Silver Meteor_) but the dining facilities were quite often combined.

Taking this to the current cluster, _for example_, it would not be conceptually problematic to serve the _same_ meals out of the "back door" of the dining car for coach pax if the main desire were to separate the areas. Lock the two sliding doors open and hand them a tray. The menu might even be slightly different. I believe that the _Caledonian Sleeper_ more-or-less does this in the UK.

The main problem for the non-_Auto Train_ trains, at present, is that having a tier below a "decent TV dinner for lunch or dinner" is a bad thing (and on the breakfast side, I'd argue that the food differences between coach and sleeper are a wash...it's a trade between access to cereal in the diner and different pastries in the cafe). As to the _Auto Train_, the problem there is that regardless of what Amtrak has in mind they have also given good reason for everyone to seriously doubt their proposed handling of the cafe situation (which, as a matter of course, would still likely require two employees due to the combination of passenger loads and the fact that everyone is going the whole distance).


----------



## tricia

I'm not comfortable with a service run and subsidized by the US government moving in the direction of more segregation by economic class. In recent years, venues where citizens of diverse backgrounds share the same experience have become fewer and fewer. Democracy (indeed, any sort of "we're all in this together" cooperation) is handicapped by this.


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## jis

tricia said:


> I'm not comfortable with a service run and subsidized by the US government moving in the direction of more segregation by economic class. In recent years, venues where citizens of diverse backgrounds share the same experience have become fewer and fewer. Democracy (indeed, any sort of "we're all in this together" cooperation) is handicapped by this.



Then you are probably uncomfortable with any sort of First Class service, which I think in unrealistic utopianism. [emoji57]


----------



## tricia

jis said:


> Then you are probably uncomfortable with any sort of First Class service, which I think in unrealistic utopianism. [emoji57]


No, I'm uncomfortable with citizens in a democracy subsidizing a public service that's structured in ways that enforce increasing economic class segregation. I don't have any problem with Cunard doing this. I don't even have a problem with Amtrak selling roomettes and bedrooms--i.e., paying extra for extra space that allows you to sleep lying flat. I do have a problem with cordoning off the diner so that only upper-class tickets grant access.

Granted, there's not a bright right/wrong line here. But loss of yet another venue where people from all walks of life consider it normal to mingle together is a real cost, I think.


----------



## jis

So then the removal of the Coast Starlight Parlor Car was a good thing then. Or could that also be viewed as part of paying extra for extra floor space, and therefore OK?


----------



## tricia

jis said:


> So then the removal of the Coast Starlight Parlor Car was a good thing then. Or could that also be viewed as part of paying extra for extra floor space, and therefore OK?



I think the PPC being off-limits for coach passengers was mitigated by a real diner being available for them that was used by both coach and sleeper passengers. In my (limited) experience on the Coast Starlight when it had a PPC, folks with sleeper tickets were at least as likely to eat in the diner with coach passengers as to eat in the PPC with its more-limited menu. Myself, I went to the diner for breakfast and usually had dinner in the PPC--especially when lamb shanks were on the menu. 

Once again, there's no bright right/wrong line here. But there is a social cost to policies that increase economic segregation, and I think that cost should be considered when gov't-supported entities such as Amtrak make policy changes.


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## Dakota 400

pennyk said:


> Please return the conversation to the topic of Amtrak Flex Dining. Other topics (such as food on cruise ships) may be discussed in the lounge.
> 
> Thank you.



May I offer my apologies for my recent post?


----------



## lordsigma

I recently signed the dining car petition. One thing I don’t understand however is comments from signatories saying they are giving up train travel altogether and flying/driving instead. Obviously if you otherwise like flying better and the dining car was the only thing that tipped the scales in favor of Amtrak then hey fly. But I frankly think boycotting is counter productive in this case especially if your train isn’t one that has been switched to flex dining and you are just quitting Amtrak altogether out of principle. Obviously to each their own, but I again do not think boycotts are going to be affective. I think the only thing that could possibly be affective is a lot of noise and trying to reverse the congressional mandate. While I support the petition goal and would like to see the mandate go away and traditional dining maintained and put back on the trains it was removed from, there’s also for me a lot more about train travel than the food and I’m certainly not going to boycott. Obviously everyone has the right to their own take on that but that’s how I look at it. I’ll still ride and if I can’t stomach the meals I’ll bring some food aboard with me or eat a big meal before departure where I won’t need dinner.


----------



## Anderson

tricia said:


> I think the PPC being off-limits for coach passengers was mitigated by a real diner being available for them that was used by both coach and sleeper passengers. In my (limited) experience on the Coast Starlight when it had a PPC, folks with sleeper tickets were at least as likely to eat in the diner with coach passengers as to eat in the PPC with its more-limited menu. Myself, I went to the diner for breakfast and usually had dinner in the PPC--especially when lamb shanks were on the menu.
> 
> Once again, there's no bright right/wrong line here. But there is a social cost to policies that increase economic segregation, and I think that cost should be considered when gov't-supported entities such as Amtrak make policy changes.


I think it also helps that the traffic loads on the Starlight were often such that the PPC basically helped vent perhaps 18-24 pax/meal from the diner. The only other trains with the sorts of sleeper loads the Starlight tended to have at the time were the Auto Train and the Empire Builder.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IF only sleeping car passengers had access to good food in the diner, that would be a totally different discussion. As it is... nobody has access to good food!


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## Mystic River Dragon

lordsigma said:


> I recently signed the dining car petition. One thing I don’t understand however is comments from signatories saying they are giving up train travel altogether and flying/driving instead. Obviously if you otherwise like flying better and the dining car was the only thing that tipped the scales in favor of Amtrak then hey fly. But I frankly think boycotting is counter productive in this case especially if your train isn’t one that has been switched to flex dining and you are just quitting Amtrak altogether out of principle.



I agree that it would be counterproductive to boycott Amtrak travel completely. I think what might be effective is to boycott flex dining. For example, if the LSA hears, over and over, "Could I just have a cup of coffee, please, because I will not eat the flex dining food so I [ate before I boarded, brought my own, had a real diner breakfast earlier which will last me all day, etc."]? And then repeat that--just slip it into casual conversation--to whoever is around--SCA, lounge attendants, etc.--eventually things might change when 90 percent of the flex stuff they loaded is still on the train at the last stop and all they are hearing is complaints.

Also, if it is really true that the LSA is not allowed to bring food to the tables anymore, a few comments about how dangerous it is to try to carry things back to the table and to stand waiting in line should get right through if nothing else does. I would think Amtrak would be terrified of a bunch of people falling and suing them.


----------



## tonys96

I do not plan to boycott Amtrak, yet. I hope to be able to take the Prettiest Girl in Texas on at least one more long distance trip before the dining options change on Western trains. On points.

After that, who knows?


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## jis

That could lead to Flex Dining being replaced by Coffee service though [emoji57]

I am currently on the Capitol Limited and this business about LSAs/SCAs being prohibited to bring food to the table for passengers is apparently utter bs. I saw them do so many times, including for me, and when asked about such a prohibition they said they have not heard of such a thing.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Back when I started refusing food on United Airlines the FA's didn't even bat an eye. In fact they'd still offer you the next meal unsolicited as if you'd never said anything at all. Looking around during meal service you could see many entrees were barely picked at before being collected and trashed. The food never seemed to improve and the staff never seemed to notice or care who ate or not. Since Amtrak is run by an airline executive who has provided no meaningful indication that he puts the customer experience anywhere near the top of his priorities I would not expect word of mouth complaints or lack of consumption to mean anything of relevance to him. Personally I think the path to real corrective action lies mainly with our Senators and Congresspeople. Anderson probably doesn't care what you think about his food, but our Congress has already shown they can successfully override Anderson's agenda when it comes to route abandonment and bus bridges. Now it's time for them to reverse the Mica mandate and motivate Amtrak to improve food service again.


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## tricia

Perhaps those of us who can't eat what's offered might take the food and announce: "I can't eat this, but maybe someone in coach can." Then go to coach and give it away. And follow up by calling or mailing a complaint to Amtrak's customer service.


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## lordsigma

tonys96 said:


> I do not plan to boycott Amtrak, yet. I hope to be able to take the Prettiest Girl in Texas on at least one more long distance trip before the dining options change on Western trains. On points.
> 
> After that, who knows?



I’m not convinced yet it’s coming to the western trains from reading the five year service plans. Otherwise what is the point in keeping the traditional dining on there now and why didn’t they just do it everywhere now? I think they do realize there is a difference in the longer distance trips and probably want to approach those more carefully. There may be some changes to those to try to reduce costs (or boost revenue) on those but I’m not convinced they’re going to do the exact same thing as the eastern trains. It may not be necessary to breakeven on F&B on every single train so long as they breakeven nationally. I think one way they may approach the western trains is hinted at in the five year plans. I think they may try to bring in some more premium offerings (like what is offered on VIA’s routes) to try to boost revenue.


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## Larry H.

Some friends of mine just returned from New York on the Lake Shore. They took some photos of the new diners. I was greatly saddened by how nice they looked with up to date styling and a somewhat nostalgic feel of the diners I recall from the heyday of train travel. To see them unused for the purpose they were purchased for is truly a sad day. I agree with those who say the food service and service in general is chasing away riders. I for one used to love to take the train, but with the loss of most basic of human needs, decent food, its simply become questionable as to if I will book a trip on Amtrak. There is just something off putting about the downgrade of rail service that Amtrak has been on for years. Plus the lack of decent maintenance was also an issue they were not pleased with in the sleepers. Running shabby consist with poor food choices is not a way to encourage many passengers.


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## Manny T

Not sure the Western trains will be forever exempt. The premise seems to be, "these are long 2-night trips, there has to be good (acceptable) dining." 

But isn't it true that most folks don't ride end to end? Aren't most trips on the western trains taken by folks who ride between intermediate stops, often just overnight? 

If that is a fact, then I don't see why Amtrak would not switch to "flexible dining" at some point in the not too distant future, esp. if it saves money.


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## striker64

I'm currently on 97 and had the chicken fettuccini and it's really not great. It doesn't taste awful, but it's just very bland. It's also a small serving portion compared to what the dining used to be (although that's probably a good thing).

I sat at the table and was served, so apparently that's still being done on some trains. I know the old menu wasn't the greatest food but there was some genuinely good stuff on there. This, not so much.


----------



## tonys96

lordsigma said:


> I’m not convinced yet it’s coming to the western trains from reading the five year service plans. Otherwise what is the point in keeping the traditional dining on there now and why didn’t they just do it everywhere now? I think they do realize there is a difference in the longer distance trips and probably want to approach those more carefully. There may be some changes to those to try to reduce costs (or boost revenue) on those but I’m not convinced they’re going to do the exact same thing as the eastern trains. It may not be necessary to breakeven on F&B on every single train so long as they breakeven nationally. I think one way they may approach the western trains is hinted at in the five year plans. I think they may try to bring in some more premium offerings (like what is offered on VIA’s routes) to try to boost revenue.



This sounds a lot like some of the posts made back when the cuts first started. N
The ones that said no worries, we don't need tablecloths, real silverware, amenity kits, and those darned flowers. Don't worry, that is all that is getting cut, they can't mess with food service, etc 

Only time will tell.


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## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> Don't worry, that is all that is getting cut, they can't mess with food service, etc



Can you point to a quote from someone actually saying that?


----------



## yarrow

Ryan said:


> Can you point to a quote from someone actually saying that?


I didn't post it but you can sure quote me on it


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## lordsigma

Manny T said:


> Not sure the Western trains will be forever exempt. The premise seems to be, "these are long 2-night trips, there has to be good (acceptable) dining."
> 
> But isn't it true that most folks don't ride end to end? Aren't most trips on the western trains taken by folks who ride between intermediate stops, often just overnight?
> 
> If that is a fact, then I don't see why Amtrak would not switch to "flexible dining" at some point in the not too distant future, esp. if it saves money.


I think there are enough long distance riders on these trains where it would be a concern in my opinion. You also don't need to be an end to end rider to have a trip with several meals depending on start/end points. In my opinion if changes do come, I don't think it will be a simple copy and paste of the eastern trains, otherwise they probably would have done it already.


----------



## lordsigma

tonys96 said:


> This sounds a lot like some of the posts made back when the cuts first started. N
> The ones that said no worries, we don't need tablecloths, real silverware, amenity kits, and those darned flowers. Don't worry, that is all that is getting cut, they can't mess with food service, etc
> 
> Only time will tell.


Not saying it's impossible and will never occur or that no changes will occur at all. I'm just saying I don't think it's the current plan to take the flex dining on the eastern trains and stick it on the western. I think whatever they do may look different. And maybe it will be a similarly negative change. I think you may see them keep the traditional dining setting but making some different changes to reduce costs. Maybe I'm totally off base, just sharing my view based on what I saw in the five year plans which indicate the intentions of the current management. I'm not even saying don't worry or that I agree with the present changes: I personally think what the current management would really like to see out west is changes to the network with a premium service class on whatever routes remained. So it may be end up being great for someone taking the Zephyr, but for those taking the Chief or Sunset Limited they may not even have a train.


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## chrsjrcj

If the Western trains are broken up with a bus ride in the middle, then a 2 consecutive night on the train becomes 1 and contemporary dining becomes practical. 

https://www.allaboardmn.org/about/news/current-press-releases/amtraks-empire-builder-threatened/


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## Amtrakfflyer

Wow. Twin Cities to Spokane on a bus. Wow. 1341 miles if anyone was wondering.


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## Mystic River Dragon

And that includes going through (up, up, then down, down) those Rocky Mountains? Yikes.


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## Devil's Advocate

chrsjrcj said:


> If the Western trains are broken up with a bus ride in the middle, then a 2 consecutive night on the train becomes 1 and contemporary dining becomes practical. https://www.allaboardmn.org/about/news/current-press-releases/amtraks-empire-builder-threatened/


What a mess...this should probably get its own thread.


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## IndyLions

Giving a quick review tonight. This will probably be a little disjointed.

On the Cardinal (50) - running nearly 3 hours late out of CHI - after arriving 6 hours late the other direction this morning - so I’m stressed and starving - now it’s time for New Flexible Dining choices. 

I’ll wait and see how the food tastes - I’m not expecting much but almost anything will work.

I’m one of the first here in the diner (9:30 “seating”) and it is pretty much chaos. Bags sitting everywhere - most without any food in them yet - some orders placed and most are not - just a mess. Kitchen is loud and disorganized.

My first impression is that the bags are stupid. For those taking out to their room - sure. For people eating in the quasi-diner car - silly.

My order is the first one ready - and the food isn’t terrible. I got the “kids” meatball pasta, red wine & small salad with packaged brownie dessert. 

Portions small but not unreasonable. Salad is fresh. Food reheated but tasty. Brownie for dessert not bad. I would put it on par or slightly better than Airline Coach food on International flights back in the 90’s. Not up to par at sleeper prices.

Food - Decent to OK
Presentation - messy. 
Experience - chaos.

I’d give it a D+, mainly because of the presentation & experience. At Coach prices it would rate a C+.

Another note - the guy who “prepares” the food was out of here after an hour. That left the Lounge guy, the Sleeper Car attendant and a trainee. So (outside of prep) they got a whole hour of work out of him and he’s off to his room. 

I’ve had other crews for “contemporary” dining that were far superior and they made the experience better. The SCA is pretty solid - but I’m not impressed otherwise.


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## Larry H.

That was a similar experience to what I had on the City of New Orleans last year. A whole diner full of people and one person trying to serve them while shouting at coach passengers that they couldn't come in the diner. The food was awful an what was ordered they didn't even have so they just make it up. Two choices and both bad. This was going south. For people who say that a train leaving at 8pm does't get much business there was no where to sit and you had to wait if you were in sleeper class. Coach people had no choice but to go to the end of the car that had a snack type bar. Frankly I told one disgruntled lady from coach as she passed us while leaving that her burger and chips from the cafe end was probably a lot better than what we ended up with. That trip pretty much ended my wish to pay for sleeper class and be soundly disappointed by the food service. I would guess that is how many felt because on a trip on the Chief a few years ago people then in what was left of a diner were telling us it was their first train ride and last! 

This whole scheme to save money while destroying the most pleasant part of rail travel, a decent diner, is a sad day and a terrible idea.

P.S. I do recall a lot of people saying it was a slippery slope when the flowers, and table cloths went. And some here always take the other point of view no matter how crazy things get. Not helpful in my mind to saving what is left of rail travel.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Another RPA Friday update today and not a word on the dining. Not ONE word since the flex dining was implemented a month ago. Sounds like they are working on it just like Anderson is working on convection oven refits in the V2 diners.


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## scrollmaster

Wife and I have bedroom on Crescent #19 tonite and it was Fast Food Self Serve. He had rolled a cabinet at the entrance to his station and never left his hole the hour plus we were there eating and visiting. There was also a box with a few dollar bills placed on top and I was informed his gratuity was not included with our free meals. I was then instructed to wait while he prepared our drinks and salads tray and also had to come back to pick up the "stuff" he heated and bring to our table. When finished I am expected to bus my own table. This routine was extended to everyone eating while we were there. I did all the leg work Aland he expects me to tip him? I might as well been at McDonalds!!


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## crescent-zephyr

I didn’t tip the LSA on the meteor 1 cent. I gave all of my dining car tips to my sleeper attendant who gave me my menu, took my orders, brought me coffee, and brought me a refill after my dinner. 

That was in addition to her tip as a great SCA as well.


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## pennyk

crescent-zephyr said:


> I didn’t tip the LSA on the meteor 1 cent. I gave all of my dining car tips to my sleeper attendant who gave me my menu, took my orders, brought me coffee, and brought me a refill after my dinner.
> 
> That was in addition to her tip as a great SCA as well.



I have traveled on the Silver Meteor 3 times since October 1st and have tipped the LSA each time. Although I am unable to not eat the flex dining meals, the LSA gets me beverages, brownies, hot water, breakfast items, etc. I am guessing I have had much better experience with LSAs than you have. My SCAs pretty much did nothing related to flex dining, so I did not provide tips in addition to what I normally would tip.


----------



## Twinkletoes

I first rode the trains right at the end of the NY Central and Illinois Central era. I traveled mostly in coach. My pattern was this: for afternoon departures eat a good meal before boarding and carry snacks for later. I was always able to get a good diner hot breakfast supplemented by a snack bar sandwich of some sort with my carried on snacks. I got by. When I started traveling mainly by sleeper, the privacy, bed, and “en suite” toilet were the attractions. It was good to have the hot meals, but I always had my snacks (and favorite condiments such as my own diet salad dressing and genuine maple syrup for the French Toast for meals which I always had served in my compartment).

From the discussion it sounds like the new service will be similar to the meal service l experienced on the Lake Shore Limited in Summer 2018 and Summer 2018. I do not look forward to this and have concluded that prudent planning is back in my life: e.g, (1) eating a good meal in Chicago before boarding east or southbound trains (Lake Shore Limited or City of New Orleans); (2) revert to the traditional carry on box of chicken; (3) buy something from the snack bar. The one thing Amtrak seems not to have considered is that most people do not want 2 dinners/day. A hot and cold sandwich option should be available at both lunch and dinner times. To avoid this issue, the preferred option for me will be to buy or bring a sandwich when boarding the Crescent and trying one of the hot meals for dinner. I do not have great expectations for their quality. If inedible at the first bite, I will just get something from the snack car. I loved not having to plan meals, but I prefer that to eating unpalatable food just because it came with the ticket. It’s analogous to my accepting that the NYP Acela Lounge is not for the snacks, but frequently cleaned toilets, early boarding and quietness. The service barely deserves the name First Class. The crux for me to avoid seething the entire trip about enhanced dining (the term is absurdly Orwellian) will be remembering my motivation for spending extra money on a ticket is not food-related.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

pennyk said:


> I have traveled on the Silver Meteor 3 times since October 1st and have tipped the LSA each time. Although I am unable to not eat the flex dining meals, the LSA gets me beverages, brownies, hot water, breakfast items, etc. I am guessing I have had much better experience with LSAs than you have. My SCAs pretty much did nothing related to flex dining, so I did not provide tips in addition to what I normally would tip.



Your SCA's didn't present you the menu or offer to take your order? Or you're saying they didn't help you because you couldn't eat the meals so there was no order to take, etc? 

I feel like the LSA I had was right in the middle... she wasn't rude, but she also wasn't friendly. If you aren't even going to try to be friendly, I'm not leaving a tip for handing me a yogurt.


----------



## lordsigma

Devil's Advocate said:


> What a mess...this should probably get its own thread.



I’m a little confused by the article in the way it mentions summer. Was this essentially a plan to permanently cancel the builder and replace with bus service or was this a temporary summer thing they were thinking of pitching due to some type of track work or whatever somewhere? While obviously the article is concerning, it is lacking in details.


----------



## pennyk

crescent-zephyr said:


> Your SCA's didn't present you the menu or offer to take your order? Or you're saying they didn't help you because you couldn't eat the meals so there was no order to take, etc?


My SCAs did not take my order because I told them I could not eat the meals, thus, there was no order to take. I placed my own beverage orders directly with the LSA.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

scrollmaster said:


> I might as well been at McDonalds!!


In my experience even a lowly McDonald's is faster, fresher, and friendlier than Amtrak dining. I've never once been barked at or belittled in a McDonald's and if they happen to screw up they even act apologetic and try to make it right in some small way. Can't say I've ever seen anything like that when dining with Amtrak. At best they just shrug and suggest you contact someone at corporate.



lordsigma said:


> I’m a little confused by the article in the way it mentions summer. Was this essentially a plan to permanently cancel the builder and replace with bus service or was this a temporary summer thing they were thinking of pitching due to some type of track work or whatever somewhere? While obviously the article is concerning, it is lacking in details.


I agree it would be very helpful to have more information and details. Bus bridges for maintenance and irregular operations already happen as needed so that wouldn't normally be seen as a threat in and of itself. Summer is prime time for the Western long distance routes and it makes little sense to target high season from a revenue perspective.


----------



## Anderson

Also bear in mind that if there's extensive track work being done somewhere, there's a good chance that it won't be up to Amtrak when it happens. Amtrak might not even have "boo" to say about it.

Right now, all we have is a vague rumor and some previous bad behavior to go on.


----------



## drfonta

pennyk said:


> My SCAs did not take my order because I told them I could not eat the meals, thus, there was no order to take. I placed my own beverage orders directly with the LSA.


Hi Penny,

Is there hot water available on the Silvers? Or would I run the risk of blowing a circuit breaker with a water boiler in my room? Thinking ahead potentially for some Korean cup ramen...


----------



## Anderson

drfonta said:


> Hi Penny,
> 
> Is there hot water available on the Silvers? Or would I run the risk of blowing a circuit breaker with a water boiler in my room? Thinking ahead potentially for some Korean cup ramen...


I know you can get hot water for tea in the cafe (since they do sell hot tea). I would presume you could get it in the ex-diner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

You can get hot water and hot tea from the diner / sleeper lounge as well as coffee, soft drinks, etc.


----------



## Twinkletoes

For me one theme recurs in this and other discussions: although Amtrak is one company, there is no (enforced??) uniform service standard in practice. On each trip and with different sleeping car attendants or dining car people, the service is variable. Example: previously for some, attendant's meal service in the room meant getting a white bag that may or may not have included the meal you ordered standard condiments such as a butter or margarine for baked potatoes or bread or, salt/pepper/sugar; ketchup While for others it meant getting a tray lined with linen napkins with a thoughtful provision of all condiments and the right order. Lately there has also been inconsistent diner service: from reservations/no reservations; announcement/no announcement of the diner sitting time. I won't continue. Overall it's difficult as a passenger to have to deal with having people express their impatience with you because whatever you were instructed to do or were told is the process on the last trip is "wrong" the next time. I expect the chaos to continue. In the dim past, I recall that there was more consistency.


----------



## pennyk

drfonta said:


> Hi Penny,
> 
> Is there hot water available on the Silvers? Or would I run the risk of blowing a circuit breaker with a water boiler in my room? Thinking ahead potentially for some Korean cup ramen...


I agree with Anderson. I would not personally use a water boiler for fear of blowing a circuit. I agree that you can get hot water from the sleeper lounge.


----------



## me_little_me

tricia said:


> Perhaps those of us who can't eat what's offered might take the food and announce: "I can't eat this, but maybe someone in coach can." Then go to coach and give it away. And follow up by calling or mailing a complaint to Amtrak's customer service.


What a wonderful idea! Especially if that were passed on to management viafeedback.

On the other hand, many might consider that inappropriate in that subjecting non-premier travelers to that food might be considered to be an act of terrorism.


----------



## bratkinson

pennyk said:


> I agree with Anderson. I would not personally use a water boiler for fear of blowing a circuit. I agree that you can get hot water from the sleeper lounge.



I would suspect that since the outlets in the roomettes are likely built with heavy enough wire (12ga?) to handle hair dryers, there shouldn't be any problem with using a small cup-of-water type heating device. Check the wattage on your hair dryer...1200 to 2000 watts, usually. If your water heating device draws less, you're in luck! If not, I'm sure the SCA knows how to reset the breaker. Perhaps asking the SCA in advance if hair dryers are OK would be the best path to follow.


----------



## Pat Harper

Actually, the outlets in the roomettes were intended for electric shavers, not hairdryers.


----------



## TinCan782

During October we experienced the Lake Shore Limited* and Crescent** trains (and the new menu) for the first time. Food quality aside, lunch and dinner shares 4 items (5 if you count the "Kid's Meal" (pasta and meatballs) rather than separate lunch and dinner choices. In our trip mentioned, we had 2 breakfasts, 2 lunches, and 3 dinners from the flexible menu. A little more variety would be nice. 

On the LSL, the "serving" of meals was was problematic. We lined up at the entrance to the kitchen (galley) placed our order which was prepared; one person at a time. We received our food and returned to a table. When done, we bused our own table. The line for food extended past the first couple of tables (people standing next to you if you were in one of those booths) which restricted movement through the car...the conductor and others had to squeeze through that part of the car.

On the Crescent, the 2 SCA's assisted the LSL in the diner/lounge for dinner and the LSL seemed to be more organized. She would come to your table, take your order and return later with the food. Smoother operation and I tipped her at the end of the trip.

Disappointed that hard boiled eggs were removed from the breakfast menu. How complicated are those to store and serve?

*#48(14) CHI>BUF; #48(16) BUF>NYP 
**#19(21) NYP>NOL
This trip was book-ended by #4(11) LAX>CHI AND #1(23) NOL>LAX

On the LSL...



We later learned that those "trays" were washed and used again!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

So as usual.... all the crews are making up how they want to personally do the job.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

FrensicPic said:


> On the LSL...
> View attachment 15461
> 
> We later learned that those "trays" were washed and used again!



Even with a sign, I can see the trays that have been dumped into the garbage.


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> So as usual.... all the crews are making up how they want to personally do the job.



Or modifying things to help the flow of the train. What may work flawlessly on the LSL may be a hindrance on the Cardinal. From everything I've ready, the crews were not supposed to wait tables. yet, some are, If it helps the flow and eliminates a line that cuts off the through passage, it may be the better way.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> Or modifying things to help the flow of the train. What may work flawlessly on the LSL may be a hindrance on the Cardinal. From everything I've ready, the crews were not supposed to wait tables. yet, some are, If it helps the flow and eliminates a line that cuts off the through passage, it may be the better way.



I don’t disagree with you. As with the traditional dining, some crew modifications made a better experience for the customer, some made it a worse experience. 

I think there should be a standard experience that guests should expect.


----------



## TinCan782

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Even with a sign, I can see the trays that have been dumped into the garbage.


Some of us interpreted "tray" to be the large cafeteria type tray we used to carry 2 or more meals back to our tables, not the little individual tray!


----------



## Dakota 400

FrensicPic said:


> Some of us interpreted "tray" to be the large cafeteria type tray we used to carry 2 or more meals back to our tables, not the little individual tray!



McDonald's provide a more appropriate tray for dine-in meals than the photos show of those Amtrak trays!


----------



## Austruck

Late this month, I'm heading south from Pittsburgh to Tampa on the Silver Star. Then back north on the Silver Meteor three weeks later.

It's been a year since I've taken this trip, so I assume some of the meals are now changed over to the new system. What should I expect in either direction on those Silvers? I'm okay with eating in my roomettes.


----------



## Palmetto

Expect the flexible dining situation northbound. What you experienced on the Silver Star last year is still in effect this year. (Eating in your roomette is an option, not a requirement.)


----------



## Austruck

I experienced standing in line for a new-fangled meal back in May (back from Fort Lauderdale), and frankly think everyone would prefer I stay in my room rather than clog up the line.


----------



## me_little_me

Dakota 400 said:


> McDonald's provide a more appropriate tray for dine-in meals than the photos show of those Amtrak trays!


McDonalds also provides far better breakfast sandwiches (and I'm anything but a fan of their food) as well as better service and also allows one to customize its meals. I never saw a McDonalds person be demanding as to doing service "their way".


----------



## PaulM

@Austruck

Did you mean Silver Meteor or did I miss the announcement that the Silver Star now has a sleeper lounge with "enhanced" dining?


----------



## VentureForth

They are getting one but not sure if implemented yet. I heard 2020 for the Star.


----------



## Austruck

PaulM said:


> @Austruck
> 
> Did you mean Silver Meteor or did I miss the announcement that the Silver Star now has a sleeper lounge with "enhanced" dining?



Took one in one direction and the other coming home. So... I end up using both on the same roundtrip.


----------



## MARC Rider

me_little_me said:


> McDonalds also provides far better breakfast sandwiches (and I'm anything but a fan of their food) as well as better service and also allows one to customize its meals. I never saw a McDonalds person be demanding as to doing service "their way".


Uh, I've been to plenty of McDonald's where the level of the service was, shall we say, less than optimal.


----------



## jis

Dakota 400 said:


> McDonald's provide a more appropriate tray for dine-in meals than the photos show of those Amtrak trays!



McDonalds provided trays? The last three McDonalds I went to had only paper bags irrespective of whether you were eating in or taking out. Maybe they ran out of trays (how?) or something.


----------



## Rasputin

In my experience with contemporary dining on the Lake Shore this past May I would have definitely preferred breakfast at McDonalds.


----------



## Palmland

If Amtrak had Chick-fil-A quality of food and service, I suspect it would be preferable to Flex dining.


----------



## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> In my experience with contemporary dining on the Lake Shore this past May I would have definitely preferred breakfast at McDonalds.


I have to confess I kind of like the Jimmy Dean muffin sandwiches they have on Amtrak. But I also like McDonalds biscuit sandwiches so I'm not sure which I'd prefer!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Serving generic sausage sandwiches in coach is perfectly fine, and Continental Airlines managed to build a very loyal clientele in part by including cheap sandwiches with coach tickets, but serving this sort of thing as part of a first class sleeper service is kind of insulting. I know Amtrak doesn't actually call it first class anymore, but they still charge first class prices so that's the expectation level many first time and infrequent travelers are likely to bring with them. Imagine having to bus your own meals in first class on an aircraft or at a luxury hotel. It's laughably out of touch at these prices.


----------



## Rail Freak

Palmland said:


> If Amtrak had Chick-fil-A quality of food and service, I suspect it would be preferable to Flex dining.


OH MAN, what an idea!!!! Got My Vote!


----------



## MARC Rider

Palmland said:


> If Amtrak had Chick-fil-A quality of food and service, I suspect it would be preferable to Flex dining.


Having just experienced flex dining on 2 different trains, and also having been a customer of Chick-fil-A, I would say the above statement is not true.

More to come in a detailed trip report in this thread.


----------



## Dakota 400

Devil's Advocate said:


> Serving generic sausage sandwiches in coach is perfectly fine, and Continental Airlines managed to build a very loyal clientele in part by including cheap sandwiches with coach tickets, but serving this sort of thing as part of a first class sleeper service is kind of insulting.



Ah, for me the late and lamented Continental Airlines! Even in long distance Economy, they provided adequate meal service for Economy passengers. A December flight from Houston to Anchorage, there was meal service after leaving Houston. About 90 minutes prior to landing, a hot sandwich was served. I expressed my surprise at this to the flight attendant. Her reply is memorable: "We don't want our guests to starve!" On a Rome to Newark flight, lunch was served after leaving Rome and a snack was served prior to landing In Newark.


----------



## tim49424

Palmland said:


> If Amtrak had Chick-fil-A quality of food and service, I suspect it would be preferable to Flex dining.



The only time I’ve ever had Chick-fil-A was actually ON an Amtrak train. Four years ago I was on the Texas Eagle, stranded for 30 hours due to weather in San Marcos headed for Chicago. About an hour or two before we finally were bussed north to Fort Worth, they brought in sandwiches from there. Truth be told, I was not impressed. Not yet having the flex dining, I can’t compare, but in my opinion, the bar is set very low.


----------



## Rail Freak

tim49424 said:


> . Truth be told, I was not impressed.
> That's probably cause you're one of them Yankee Fellas, LOL!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tim49424 said:


> Truth be told, I was not impressed.



Chik-Fil-A and In-n-out, imho, far exceed the standard fast food establishments. They are both known for clean restaurants, friendly staff, and they both have record setting per-store profits.

They are also both private, family owned businesses with religious values, You can take that as a positive or a negative but it’s a fact.

As it relates to Amtrak, at chik-Fil-a I
have a decent amount of quality salad dressings to choose from, I can choose from multiple desserts, multiple side dishes, and since I can’t Have gluten, I can ask for gluten free bread.


----------



## jiml

Dakota 400 said:


> Ah, for me the late and lamented Continental Airlines! Even in long distance Economy, they provided adequate meal service for Economy passengers. A December flight from Houston to Anchorage, there was meal service after leaving Houston. About 90 minutes prior to landing, a hot sandwich was served. I expressed my surprise at this to the flight attendant. Her reply is memorable: "We don't want our guests to starve!" On a Rome to Newark flight, lunch was served after leaving Rome and a snack was served prior to landing In Newark.


People forget that Continental didn't actually go anywhere - they bought United Airlines, not the other way around.


----------



## tim49424

Rail Freak, they've invaded Michigan now. There is one about a mile and a half from me. Granted, ours didn't exist back then, but I'm still not inclined to patronize them.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Palmland said:


> If Amtrak had Chick-fil-A quality of food and service, I suspect it would be preferable to Flex dining.



Then Amtrak trains would be strictly prohibited from running on Sundays.


----------



## Bonser

Maverickstation said:


> The Downeaster Trains which are run by Amtrak for the Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority also have a local menu.
> 
> https://amtrakdowneaster.com/sites/default/files/users/user10/2019_Updated_NexdineMenu.pdf


South Station is great for sure. But I like 30th St in Philadelphia the most.


----------



## Manny T

tim49424 said:


> The only time I’ve ever had Chick-fil-A was actually ON an Amtrak train. Four years ago I was on the Texas Eagle, stranded for 30 hours due to weather in San Marcos headed for Chicago. About an hour or two before we finally were bussed north to Fort Worth, they brought in sandwiches from there. Truth be told, I was not impressed.



Same thing happened to me on a LSL that was delayed by about 4 hours. Chick-fil-A sandwiches were distributed to all PAX, sleeper and coach. I've never been to a Chick-fil-A in my life and would never eat any product from that company. Total lifetime boycott. I did examine the sandwich to see what it looked like. Then it went straight into the garbage.


----------



## Bob Dylan

tim49424 said:


> The only time I’ve ever had Chick-fil-A was actually ON an Amtrak train. Four years ago I was on the Texas Eagle, stranded for 30 hours due to weather in San Marcos headed for Chicago. About an hour or two before we finally were bussed north to Fort Worth, they brought in sandwiches from there. Truth be told, I was not impressed. Not yet having the flex dining, I can’t compare, but in my opinion, the bar is set very low.


San Marcos, where I went to High School and College as did my darling daughter!( there were no Chain Joints there in those days, just Mom and Pops! And Really Bad Flooding!!!)


----------



## SarahZ

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Then Amtrak trains would be strictly prohibited from running on Sundays.


----------



## tim49424

Manny T said:


> Same thing happened to me on a LSL that was delayed by about 4 hours. Chick-fil-A sandwiches were distributed to all PAX, sleeper and coach. I've never been to a Chick-fil-A in my life and would never eat any product from that company. Total lifetime boycott. I did examine the sandwich to see what it looked like. Then it went straight into the garbage.



Other than that time, I boycott them too. As I stated before, I was not impressed. You didn’t miss anything, in my opinion.


----------



## Palmland

While Chick-fil-A food is very good, for an inexpensive fast food restaurant, what sets them apart is their well trained employees offering consistently good customer service. Amtrak HR would do well to talk with them. 

Now, that said, I was pleased with Amtrak customer service on our recent travels (4 LD trains). No grumpy, lazy, or unpleasant employees in the sleepers or dining cars. Too bad the food and it’s presentation was very mediocre (but no doubt better than the flex dining we have yet to enjoy).


----------



## tim49424

Bob Dylan said:


> San Marcoa, where I went to High School and College as did my darling daughter!( there were no Chain Joints there in those days, just Mom and Pops!)



I got to talk to a few of the locals who stopped by the train to see if WE were alright, while people were being rescued from rooftops via helicopters and others were using rowboats where streets would be normally. They even offered to get us food. Again all this after they got slammed by two tornadoes and 15 inches of rain in 3 hours. How friendly and selfless is that? I told them we were eventually going to alright but I was more worried about them. A few hours later, we discovered the crew was going to take the train back to San Antonio and we were getting bussed to Fort Worth, where we were to meet the turned Texas Eagle headed north to Chicago. We got there and were seated for dinner before we hit Dallas. For as long as I spent in San Marcos, I know next to nothing about the area and what other fast food they have there, obviously other than Chick-fil-A.


----------



## Bob Dylan

tim49424 said:


> I got to talk to a few of the locals who stopped by the train to see if WE were alright, while people were being rescued from rooftops via helicopters and others were using rowboats where streets would be normally. They even offered to get us food. Again all this after they got slammed by two tornadoes and 15 inches of rain in 3 hours. How friendly and selfless is that? I told them we were eventually going to alright but I was more worried about them. A few hours later, we discovered the crew was going to take the train back to San Antonio and we were getting bussed to Fort Worth, where we were to meet the turned Texas Eagle headed north to Chicago. We got there and were seated for dinner before we hit Dallas. For as long as I spent in San Marcos, I know next to nothing about the area and what other fast food they have there, obviously other than Chick-fil-A.


See my amended Post above!


----------



## lordsigma

jiml said:


> People forget that Continental didn't actually go anywhere - they bought United Airlines, not the other way around.



I thought United bought Continental but they used Continental’s operating certificate and their livery for the planes (if I recall at the time, while United was technically the purchasing party, Continental had a better reputation and the Continental CEO at the time may have even taken the helm.) Not being a fan of flying I may not have that all correct but just going on what I thought I remembered.


----------



## tim49424

Bob Dylan said:


> See my amended Post above!



That amendment is the understatement of the world. Not only was that flood horrible....it’s the worst I’d ever seen!

Now, I was told that they go though that at least a couple of times per year, but the dam near there gives way, adding to the problems. The host railroad has to be very busy down there with constant maintenance! There were about 15 washouts ahead of us, one deep enough to fit a good sized human.

I was going through all the trip logs to find mine and funny enough, you told me in response to my story, that you’d lived there at one time and indeed the flooding was bad. LOL. The one thing I misremembered was the time frame of all the rain, 6 hours, not 3.

Michigan to California and Back - October 26-November 2, 2015
https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/in...and-Back---October-26-November-2,-2015.67314/

Now back to the discussion of how gawd awful the flex dining experience is......

Sorry to have somewhat hijacked the thread!


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> I thought United bought Continental but they used Continental’s operating certificate and their livery for the planes (if I recall at the time, while United was technically the purchasing party, Continental had a better reputation and the Continental CEO at the time may have even taken the helm.) Not being a fan of flying I may not have that all correct but just going on what I thought I remembered.



Technically it was a merger of equals, so no one bought anyone [emoji57]. 

Yes. Smisek of Continental became the CEO. The Continental frequent flyer program became the new merged United Mileage Plus program and the Continental reservation and resource management system (SHARES) was adopted by the merged airline, ditching the old United system, and all the planes got painted to look like Continental planes but with United as the brand name. Etc.


----------



## seat38a

Manny T said:


> Same thing happened to me on a LSL that was delayed by about 4 hours. Chick-fil-A sandwiches were distributed to all PAX, sleeper and coach. I've never been to a Chick-fil-A in my life and would never eat any product from that company. Total lifetime boycott. I did examine the sandwich to see what it looked like. Then it went straight into the garbage.



Hmmmm, maybe you could have not picked through something you weren't going to eat anyway and just given it to someone else on the train who probably isn't fortunate enough to have the luxury of throwing food away on principal?


----------



## tim49424

seat38a said:


> Hmmmm, maybe you could have not picked through something you weren't going to eat anyway and just given it to someone else on the train who probably isn't fortunate enough to have the luxury of throwing food away on principal?



From what I’m understanding, that’s what’s happening with some people and the flex dining. So I’m not sure what the difference there is.


----------



## seat38a

tim49424 said:


> From what I’m understanding, that’s what’s happening with some people and the flex dining. So I’m not sure what the difference there is.


Other's have already given those people who brag about doing it on principal, s*&^ about it already in this post and other posts like the LSL one.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> Technically it was a merger of equals, so no one bought anyone [emoji57].
> 
> Yes. Smisek of Continental became the CEO. The Continental frequent flyer program became the new merged United Mileage Plus program and the Continental reservation and resource management system (SHARES) was adopted by the merged airline, ditching the old United system, and all the planes got painted to look like Continental planes but with United as the brand name. Etc.


I don't want to start a debate on this, and what you've stated was certainly the desired public perception at the time. Behind the scenes it was quite a different scene, with UA teetering on the brink of another bankruptcy. United was chosen as the name of the merged carrier due to international recognition, thinking Continental was regarded as domestic-only. One of my best friends worked for CO at the time and is now in UA mgmt, so I had access to some pretty solid info. Let's just say their CO stock did very well.


----------



## pennyk

Please return the discussion to the topic of flex dining (which breakfast I am eating/drinking at this very minute). 
Thank you.


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> I don't want to start a debate on this, and what you've stated was certainly the desired public perception at the time. Behind the scenes it was quite a different scene, with UA teetering on the brink of another bankruptcy. United was chosen as the name of the merged carrier due to international recognition, thinking Continental was regarded as domestic-only. One of my best friends worked for CO at the time and is now in UA mgmt, so I had access to some pretty solid info. Let's just say their CO stock did very well.



I have no idea what we’d argue about since I did not say anything contrary to what you said and I don’t disagree with anything you said [emoji848][emoji6]


----------



## railiner

Like AA and USAir...it seems to me that USAir took over AA....
Sorry we have gone OT...


----------



## tim49424

seat38a said:


> Other's have already given those people who brag about doing it on principal, s*&^ about it already in this post and other posts like the LSL one.



Fair enough. My question was a matter of semantics. I’d never do that. The only time I’ve ever wasted food was when I simply couldn’t eat anymore. Doggie bags mostly don’t work in dining situations. 95% of the time, I’ll take dessert back to my room and have a snack later on so I can finish my meal. My mom taught me to do my best to clean my plate before I leave the table! That’s probably why I’m a good 60 pounds overweight! LOL


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Then Amtrak trains would be strictly prohibited from running on Sundays.


Although said in jest if Amtrak did sign Chick-Fil-A to a food service contract it would almost certainly result in no food service and zero sales fifty odd days out of every year. You could bring in another vendor just for those days, but that would be a bit of a disaster. This was the reason given for excluding CFA from my hometown airport and the decision sent their fans into a frenzy of anger and lawsuits.



jiml said:


> People forget that Continental didn't actually go anywhere - they bought United Airlines, not the other way around.


These are public companies participating in a public merger and it's kind of hard to remember something that was never reported in the first place. Bankrupt or not, UA secured funding and approval to pursue and purchase CO, and not the other way around. Operational decisions, like installing CO management at the helm of the combined company doesn't mean CO purchased UA.


----------



## Thirdrail7

This is the problem:



Devil's Advocate said:


> S I know Amtrak doesn't actually call it first class anymore, but they still charge first class prices so that's the expectation level many first time and infrequent travelers are likely to bring with them. Imagine having to bus your own meals in first class on an aircraft or at a luxury hotel. It's laughably out of touch at these prices.



Cutting the foodservice loss is a Congressional mandate. However, if you want to do this by reducing the quality and availability of the food, do it honestly. Since the prices that are being charged are cost-prohibitive, you should at least make the experience memorable.

When you cut the service from the Star, the prices were lowered. Have they lowered the prices on the sleepers? Have they lowered the prices of coach on the trains that went to contemporary dining?

Indeed, they did a COMPLETE about-face regarding the Cardinal by failing to assign a new dining car to consist.

Quality, service, ambience go off the tracks with Amtrak's 'flexible dining"



> An Amtrak spokesman last week told Trains magazine that the Cardinal won’t be assigned new Viewliner II dining cars to serve as diner/lounge cars for sleeper car passengers, as had been planned as part of the new service, given the Cardinal’s “passenger volume” while operating with a single sleeper car.
> 
> As the Trains writer accurately translated, that bodes badly for the Cardinal, since it means there are no plans in the foreseeable future to restore a second sleeper car to the train.



Why add to the experience when you can use dining cars as axle count cars out west?

As a consumer, I cherish value and it is my opinion, the value is being robbed from the experience.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> Cutting the foodservice loss is a Congressional mandate.



I would be very interested to know how much is saved by having these ready made meals being heated by an LSA vs. keeping the existing menu and keeping the chef position and letting everyone else go.


----------



## SarahZ

crescent-zephyr said:


> I would be very interested to know how much is saved by having these ready made meals being heated by an LSA vs. keeping the existing menu and keeping the chef position and letting everyone else go.


I wonder that too.

Back in the days that DA keeps referencing, I was one of the people who didn't care that they were getting rid of things like flowers, newspapers, wine and cheese tastings, shower kits, etc, but only because I felt that those sacrifices were worth it if it meant having more money to keep the actual dining cars operating. It wasn't that I didn't realize it was a slippery slope; rather, I thought it was a bit like canceling Pandora Premium, Spotify, and Amazon Prime so you could afford to continue to pay your cable bill every month. I thought it was more of a plateau than a slope. 

I also hoped that, if they did cut dining service somehow, they would lower sleeper fares like they did with the Star. I figured that was the direction they were heading with the eastern trains. Perhaps it makes me really stupid in the eyes of some on the forum, but I never even considered this possibility because it seemed like the Star was an experiment that would spread to the other trains. It's the weirdest compromise.


----------



## PVD

Right, keep the person who prepares the meals, but have nobody who can handle money, serve food, or do inventory and accounting. You can't arbitrarily change what particular titles can and can not do.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PVD said:


> Right, keep the person who prepares the meals, but have nobody who can handle money, serve food, or do inventory and accounting. You can't arbitrarily change what particular titles can and can not do.



What money? Supposedly you can buy wine and such but I never saw anyone with a drink on my experience on the Meteor. You could always make the system cashless like the airlines do. 

The LSA is also not serving meals... doesn't the chef already plate the meals?

So that leaves inventory... if you can arbitrarily add "heat all meals" to the LSA position seems you can add "inventory" to a chef position.


----------



## Dakota 400

SarahZ said:


> I wonder that too.
> 
> Back in the days that DA keeps referencing, I was one of the people who didn't care that they were getting rid of things like flowers, newspapers, wine and cheese tastings, shower kits, etc, but only because I felt that those sacrifices were worth it if it meant having more money to keep the actual dining cars operating. It wasn't that I didn't realize it was a slippery slope; rather, I thought it was a bit like canceling Pandora Premium, Spotify, and Amazon Prime so you could afford to continue to pay your cable bill every month. I thought it was more of a plateau than a slope.
> 
> I also hoped that, if they did cut dining service somehow, they would lower sleeper fares like they did with the Star. I figured that was the direction they were heading with the eastern trains. Perhaps it makes me really stupid in the eyes of some on the forum, but I never even considered this possibility because it seemed like the Star was an experiment that would spread to the other trains. It's the weirdest compromise.



Other than your statement "makes me really stupid in the eyes of some on the forum", I agree with your thoughts.


----------



## pennyk

I was just on the Meteor (northbound on 10/28 and southbound yesterday). The SCAs took the orders for the meals, the LSA heated up the meals (for the orders placed in advance) in the convection oven. The meals were either picked up by the passengers at the "service window" entrance to the kitchen, delivered to the passengers' rooms by the SCA, delivered to the passengers' tables by SCAs or the LSA. Many of the passengers were elderly and either the LSA or SCAs delivered the meals. The SCAs also assisted in bussing the tables.


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## PVD

The current system has had LSA heating meals, they do it in the cafe...Food was not given to passengers by the chef after plating it would be handled by someone else. Until they go cashless, there is a possibility of a cash transaction which a chef can't do.


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## crescent-zephyr

PVD said:


> The current system has had LSA heating meals, they do it in the cafe...Food was not given to passengers by the chef after plating it would be handled by someone else. Until they go cashless, there is a possibility of a cash transaction which a chef can't do.




Right... so the chef makes the meals, plates them, and puts them in the window for passengers to pick up or the SCA's to deliver. So that's easy. 

So your saying the possibility of a cash sale makes the entire idea of the chef position remaining impossible?


----------



## PVD

No, what I am saying is that as far as I know, there are certain functions that LSA and other service attendants do that a chef title does not. Changing that would only be possible through collective bargaining. I'm not advocating for or against particular suggestion, I'm just trying to point out that it is a unilateral change, and probably can not occur without a contract change.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PVD said:


> No, what I am saying is that as far as I know, there are certain functions that LSA and other service attendants do that a chef title does not. Changing that would only be possible through collective bargaining. I'm not advocating for or against particular suggestion, I'm just trying to point out that it is a unilateral change, and probably can not occur without a contract change.



If a new food service contract can be made, new ovens installed, and LSA's re-trained to work said ovens. I'm pretty sure a chef can learn how to do inventory and you could keep the same basic service.


----------



## PVD

I'm sure they could, but again, I am trying to point out that it is most likely something that is considered a collective bargaining provision, and as such by law, must be handled that way. Not unilaterally.


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> I would be very interested to know how much is saved by having these ready made meals being heated by an LSA vs. keeping the existing menu and keeping the chef position and letting everyone else go.





SarahZ said:


> I wonder that too.



I would imagine the savings adds up. Take a gander at the service plan linked below:



Willbridge said:


> True. That was only one meal on board. Breakfast was in the full-service diner/lounge on the _Mainstreeter. _Food was available in the Winnipeg CN station before the night departure of Train 1 (the Montreal section of the _Super Continental_).
> 
> In reviewing the attached document, it appears that class segregation is being offered, along with liquor, as a sop for a service that is less deluxe than the unsegregated service offered now.



When you add up the cuts in positions, 16 positions were lost on the Crescent and 14 were lost on the Meteor. If they go through with the cuts on Auto train, 25 positions will be lost. 

That is quite a bit of salary and benefits that are no longer attributed to the food and beverage losses. You also are cutting commissary supplies, spoilage and the length of time it takes to handle the supplies. 

As such, it likely adds up.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> I would imagine the savings adds up. Take a gander at the service plan linked below:
> 
> 
> 
> When you add up the cuts in positions, 16 positions were lost on the Crescent and 14 were lost on the Meteor. If they go through with the cuts on Auto train, 25 positions will be lost.
> 
> That is quite a bit of salary and benefits that are no longer attributed to the food and beverage losses. You also are cutting commissary supplies, spoilage and the length of time it takes to handle the supplies.
> 
> As such, it likely adds up.



I meant keeping the chef and eliminating the other positions. 

Do the frozen meals cost less than the basic ingredients that were previously being delivered? Or do they cost more? Questions like that.


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> I meant keeping the chef and eliminating the other positions.
> 
> Do the frozen meals cost less than the basic ingredients that were previously being delivered? Or do they cost more? Questions like that.



The Chef positions have been eliminated. They no longer exist on these trains. As for frozen food versus fresh food, I'm quite sure it is cheaper to have heat and serve meals.


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## pennyk

Thirdrail7 said:


> The Chef positions have been eliminated. They no longer exist on these trains.



I know at least one former Silver Meteor chef that is now a coach attendant. I chatted with a coach attendant on the Capitol Limited who told me she used to work in the kitchen on the Capitol Limited.


----------



## MARC Rider

I had the chance to experience flexible dining on two different trains, where it was implemented in two different ways.

Outbound on the Capitol Limited, the sleeping car attendant took my dinner order and offered me a seating time. The serving time was extended, with seatings every half hour. This, I found, was to spread out the crowds and minimize waiting for food. When I showed up, the attendant in the cafe section of the cross country cafe diner-lounge had my order ready, quickly heated the entree and gave me the little plastic tray thing that held the entree and the salad and a take-out carton tray that had my free bottle of wine, a roll, and the brownie. He handed those to me, and I found my own seat at a table and ate. Afterward, I bussed my stuff, stacking the plastic tray thing and ditching the rest in the trash.

For that meal, I got the beef entree, which appeared to be microwaved, and was very hot. Although not gourmet cooking, it was perfectly edible and kept me from being "hangry" for the duration of the trip. In any event, soon after I ate, I had my bed made up, and went to sleep.






Breakfast was again counter service. I had the breakfast sandwich and a fruit cup, which I believe is an excellent addition to the menu, and I wish the standard dining cars out west would offer it. The breakfast sandwich was microwaved, and was OK, but would be better if prepared in a convection oven.

The ride home on the Cardinal was different. First, there was only one sleeper, and that wasn't full. The sleeper end of the diner-lite was reserved for sleeping car passengers, and we were able to hang out there pretty much all day. At meal times, it was set up like a diner, with place settings (OK, plastic plate settings). Also, one of the coach attendants assisted the cafe attendant and served as a waiter. He took orders, recorded our room numbers, and served us the meals.








Because the Cardinal serves a dinner, breakfast, lunch and another dinner, I got to sample all three meat entrees available on the menu. The shrimp and sausage was spicy and, in my opinion, tasty. The chicken fettuccine was a bit bland to my taste but not as bad as some of the reviews I've seen here. The beef was the same as I had on the Capitol. You should note that "the first drink is on us" refers to the entire trip, not each meal. Thus, if you get your free wine or beer at the first dinner, you would have to pay for additional booze for later meals

The sugar-bomb breakfast clearly needs some work on the part of the menu planners. A quick fix would be to offer plain oatmeal (though I don't know if any of the vendors of instant oatmeal actually make an instant plain unsweetened oatmeal), plain youghurt, and toast or bagel. To add protein, bring back the hard boiled egg.

A more complete fix would probably be to adopt something similar to airline catering. The fast food model, whether McDonalds or Chick-fil-A, or whatever, doesn't work, because I don't think there's the volume of sales to justify the staffing typical of a fast-food outlet. (look back into the kitchen of a McDonald's and you'll see there are actually a lot of people back there.) There's no reason that prefab food can't work perfectly well, it's just that Amtrak management needs to select a better quality food product and pay a little more effort to presentation. But advocates of decent on-board service also need to explain to skeptical politicians and the public about why decent on-board service standards are an important and even essential aspect of providing passenger rail service. This will take some thought, as other transportation modes have become very successful by diminishing on-board service standards, and we are talking about the taxpayers' money here.


----------



## SarahZ

Quaker has a Low Sugar variety that hovers around 20g carbs per serving. Pairing it with a glass of milk would help. (I actually prepare my oatmeal with milk instead of water.)

They could also provide apples and/or bananas along with packets of peanut butter. I bring the Jif packets to work and dip my apple slices in them. Sometimes I spread a bit on a banana as I eat it.

As mentioned, hard-boiled eggs would be a plus. A fruit and cheese platter would be good, too.


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## Manny T

MARC Rider said:


> The sugar-bomb breakfast clearly needs some work on the part of the menu planners. A quick fix would be to offer plain oatmeal (though I don't know if any of the vendors of instant oatmeal actually make an instant plain unsweetened oatmeal), plain youghurt, and toast or bagel. To add protein, bring back the hard boiled egg.



1. Plain oatmeal
2. Plain yogurt
3. Toast
4. Bagel
5. Hard boiled egg
6. Apple
7. Banana
8. Peanut butter & jam

The solution to the breakfast problem. I mean, is this rocket science?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> The Chef positions have been eliminated. They no longer exist on these trains. As for frozen food versus fresh food, I'm quite sure it is cheaper to have heat and serve meals.



Yes I know that. I was suggesting the chef position should have not been eliminated but kept instead of the LSA position.

How are you quite sure? Do you know what Amtrak is paying for the frozen meals vs. the previous food?


----------



## MARC Rider

Also, I was not too impressed with the cafe car menu on either the flex dining trains or the full-dining Texas Eagle. Not all that much variety, and some items were not available on some of the trains. I'm not sure why the national cafe car menu couldn't be closer to that of the Northeast Regional. I believe I've heard that the Northeast Regional cafe cars are not losing money, so it would be a good model for the rest of the system.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> But advocates of decent on-board service also need to explain to skeptical politicians and the public about why decent on-board service standards are an important and even essential aspect of providing passenger rail service.



Thanks for your report and thoughts. I’ve been interested in reading the different members thoughts on the service.

Regarding the quote above... as long as sleeping cars are sold above the cost of domestic first class, I think food service at least as good as domestic first class should be offered. As thirdrail mentioned, taking away the diners completely and lowering the cost of sleepers as was done on the Star, would be a better option for everyone in my opinion.


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes I know that. I was suggesting the chef position should have not been eliminated but kept instead of the LSA position.



Why does that even matter? If you change the classification so they handle money and serve food, all you've done is convert the position into the current LSA position, who already heat and serve food as part of their job description.



crescent-zephyr said:


> How are you quite sure? Do you know what Amtrak is paying for the frozen meals vs. the previous food?



There is a lot more to the costs than the actual food. Even if you were to think the past food costs the same as the current food, I know what no longer needs support. I also know there was an existing support structure for preheated meals (such as what is being served in the cafe) that supports the current model. The delivery and labor associated are definitely cheaper when you can close down entire buildings and operations that will no longer be used to store or support fresh food operations.

There are a lot more job cuts besides the actually onboard staff.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> Why does that even matter? If you change the classification so they handle money and serve food, all you've done is convert the position into the current LSA position, who already heat and serve food as part of their job description.



I was suggesting to keep a chef with food that was at least somewhat cooked on board. I was saying “what if.” 

But yeah now I get it, you’re saying the commissary that handles the cafe cars can handle the new diners? So there was a dining car commissary closed down. Or multiples I guess?


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I was suggesting to keep a chef with food that was at least somewhat cooked on board. I was saying “what if.”
> 
> But yeah now I get it, you’re saying the commissary that handles the cafe cars can handle the new diners? So there was a dining car commissary closed down. Or multiples I guess?



I don’t think it’s really the position/job clarification that matters. It’s how much preparation of fresh food can a single staff member be expected to do. They want the pre heated meals because it’s cheaper all around.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I don’t think it’s really the position/job clarification that matters. It’s how much preparation of fresh food can a single staff member be expected to do. They want the pre heated meals because it’s cheaper all around.



The eastern trains only had 1 chef.


----------



## PVD

Yes, pretty sure it was one chef, but I think there was an additional position called food specialist or food prep specialist (not sure of exact name) that supplemented the chef on some trains.


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## PVD

Yes, I think there was an additional position called food specialist or food prep specialist (not sure of exact name) that supplemented the chef.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PVD said:


> Yes, pretty sure it was one chef, but I think there was an additional position called food specialist or food prep specialist (not sure of exact name) that supplemented the chef on some trains.



Some trains. But not the eastern trains afaik. Maybe the capitol when it had the real plates and glassware.


----------



## Austruck

I'm diabetic, and typically the diner car breakfasts were my easiest low-carb meals. I ordered simply bacon and eggs and coffee. None of the current breakfast options are diabetic friendly like that. Might have to pull apart a breakfast sandwich and skip whatever bread-item it's housed in... (sigh)


----------



## PVD

I wasn't sure, thought I may have seen one on the LSL when it was operating without the full diner and using the AM-2 diner-lite


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> Some trains. But not the eastern trains afaik. Maybe the capitol when it had the real plates and glassware.



The eastern trains had a food specialist position until things were scaled back. It was gradual. AS you stated, the Crapitol lost their specialist when they cut back the consist a few years ago. The Late For Sre lost their specialist when they cut the dining car a few years ago. The Pigeon lost its specialist when they went to a simplified dining service, utilizing the LSA for the functions. The Starvation lost everything and everybody. The Crescent quietly lost their specialist when they "rationalized" their consist. After all, you had two sleepers and two coaches, in the winter. They would occasionally add the position in the summer if the numbers called for it.

The Streak retained its specialist until recently. The Auto Pain still has its food specialist positions.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> The eastern trains had a food specialist position until things were scaled back. It was gradual. AS you stated, the Crapitol lost their specialist when they cut back the consist a few years ago. The Late For Sre lost their specialist when they cut the dining car a few years ago. The Pigeon lost its specialist when they went to a simplified dining service, utilizing the LSA for the functions. The Starvation lost everything and everybody. The Crescent quietly lost their specialist when they "rationalized" their consist. After all, you had two sleepers and two coaches, in the winter. They would occasionally add the position in the summer if the numbers called for it.
> 
> The Streak retained its specialist until recently. The Auto Pain still has its food specialist positions.



I remember riding the Lake Short and Crescent and only seeing 1 chef. Trying to remember if I ever saw more than 1 on the Star and Meteor. It would seem the Meteor might have needed one with the extra sleeper but I don't recall. 

When you say "things were scaled back" are you talking about the Simplified Dining Service? (and we all thought the sky was falling then!) or are you talking about more recently?


----------



## Chey

Bob Dylan said:


> San Marcos, where I went to High School and College as did my darling daughter!( there were no Chain Joints there in those days, just Mom and Pops! And Really Bad Flooding!!!)



Yeah, I remember wondering if we were going to be able to take the Eagle from there to FTW that Spring a few years ago when the rains broke the drought for the 1st time in 10 years [it made it but there were big problems a day or two later]. And BTW, what I saw of the town was really pretty.


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## Qapla

I agree that reducing the quality/quantity of the food service should result in cheaper sleeper prices - that said ...

My work and travels take me into many Convenience Stores of various brands. most of them offer breakfast and lunch items. I know these are not "1st class" offerings ... however, there are usually very few clerks in a convenience store and they handle sales, receiving, cleaning as well as keeping the hot foods hot and the cold foods cold and all of them stocked in far more quantities that any train offers.

They manage to offer food that is better than much of what I have had on the train, a wider variety of that food, and in much better condition even when "kept hot" than some of the "freshly heated" food I have had from the cafe car.

They do this and turn a profit!

If a Convenience Store can do this with less employees who are most likely paid less than Amtrak personnel - Amtrak should be able to do this also.


----------



## pennyk

Qapla said:


> I agree that reducing the quality/quantity of the food service should result in cheaper sleeper prices - that said ...
> 
> My work and travels take me into many Convenience Stores of various brands. most of them offer breakfast and lunch items. I know these are not "1st class" offerings ... however, there are usually very few clerks in a convenience store and they handle sales, receiving, cleaning as well as keeping the hot foods hot and the cold foods cold and all of them stocked in far more quantities that any train offers.
> 
> They manage to offer food that is better than much of what I have had on the train, a wider variety of that food, and in much better condition even when "kept hot" than some of the "freshly heated" food I have had from the cafe car.
> 
> They do this and turn a profit!
> 
> If a Convenience Store can do this with less employees who are most likely paid less than Amtrak personnel - Amtrak should be able to do this also.



I do not think it is a fair comparison between a convience store clerk heating up a few items and running a cash register to the LSA in the Sleeper Lounge on the Silver Meteor who may have to feed up to 90 sleeper passengers during a several hour period of time. The LSA heats the food, plates the heated entrees and desserts, gets the beverages/ice from refrigerators/cabinets/ice maker, boxes the meals for consumption in the lounge, bags the meals for delivery, presents the food either to the passenger or SCA (if for delivery), and in the case of elderly or disabled passengers (of which there are many on the Silver Meteor) delivers the meal and beverages to the table.


----------



## Qapla

You may be right ... with the lunch rush in a convenience store running to more than 300 customers in an hours time - it may not be a fair comparison.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

pennyk said:


> I do not think it is a fair comparison between a convience store clerk heating up a few items and running a cash register to the LSA in the Sleeper Lounge on the Silver Meteor who may have to feed up to 90 sleeper passengers during a several hour period of time. The LSA heats the food, plates the heated entrees and desserts, gets the beverages/ice from refrigerators/cabinets/ice maker, boxes the meals for consumption in the lounge, bags the meals for delivery, presents the food either to the passenger or SCA (if for delivery), and in the case of elderly or disabled passengers (of which there are many on the Silver Meteor) delivers the meal and beverages to the table.



Yes and no. The LSA job is still pretty easy compared to most fast paced food service jobs in my opinion.

Hard to directly compare. But at my local coffee shop I never see the employees sitting down at a revenue table just chatting with co-workers. They are always serving customers and if they have downtime they are cleaning tables, brewing more coffee, stocking, etc.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Qapla said:


> You may be right ... with the lunch rush in a convenience store running to more than 300 customers in an hours time - it may not be a fair comparison.







crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes and no. The LSA job is still pretty easy compared to most fast paced food service jobs in my opinion.
> 
> Hard to directly compare. But at my local coffee shop I never see the employees sitting down at a revenue table just chatting with co-workers. They are always serving customers and if they have downtime they are cleaning tables, brewing more coffee, stocking, etc.



You're right...after all, the people at the convenience store employees can leave the store, take a break elsewhere, are typically standing on steady ground and generally have support nearby. There is nothing like those convenience store workers that leave their house and disappear for a week at a time, with LARGE swaths of it being unpaid, while being confined to the store (because they can't step out or anything,) with the customers.

Yes...how rough those 4 to 8 hour shifts must be in comparison. I mean, I know I hate it when my convenience store is 8 hours late and hits a truck while I'm preparing soup, so I imagine the staff must hate it too!

At any rate, enjoy your cuts because ridership and revenue have climbed.

If the year to year train ridership comparison doesn't show a drop on the trains which converted to contemporary/flexible/simplified dining, the trend will continue...and why not? If there are no consequences, why not double down?

Watch out, Auto train!


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> The eastern trains only had 1 chef.



What I meant is when that one crew member had to do all the preparation, serving, inventory, etc.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> You're right...after all, the people at the convenience store employees can leave the store, take a break elsewhere, are typically standing on steady ground and generally have support nearby. There is nothing like those convenience store workers that leave their house and disappear for a week at a time, with LARGE swaths of it being unpaid, while being confined to the store (because they can't step out or anything,) with the customers.
> 
> Yes...how rough those 4 to 8 hour shifts must be in comparison. I mean, I know I hate it when my convenience store is 8 hours late and hits a truck while I'm preparing soup, so I imagine the staff must hate it too!
> 
> At any rate, enjoy your cuts because ridership and revenue have climbed.
> 
> If the year to year train ridership comparison doesn't show a drop on the trains which converted to contemporary/flexible/simplified dining, the trend will continue...and why not? If there are no consequences, why not double down?
> 
> Watch out, Auto train!



And the Amtrak lsa is making at least double what the ground based service jobs are getting paid. Plus benefits. 

By the way I’ve prepared and served food on a moving train on a mainline railroad for my job... I’m well aware things are not directly comparable. 

That being said you are totally correct...
If ridership is not being affected (and it’s not...) than we will see it expand. Hopefully the quality can get bumped up a little bit still. We know they want to allow pre-order of meals so hopefully that will allow a complete gluten-free meal option, and other improvements.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7 said:


> If the year to year train ridership comparison doesn't show a drop on the trains which converted to contemporary/flexible/simplified dining, the trend will continue...and why not? If there are no consequences, why not double down?
> 
> Watch out, Auto train!



Forgive the rant and aside, but how does this keep happening? 

They raise the fares and people continue to ride.

They cut the amenities and people continue to ride.

They cancel trains for weeks at a time and people continue to ride.

Perhaps all the hand wringing in the thread and talk of slippery slopes is irrelevant to what the majority of riders are willing to accept.

As a disclaimer, I don't fly. As such, I'm not that familiar with what occurs. 

As such, here is my theory:

The bar has been set so low, that what is occurring on the trains is normal. Heck, it may even be a step up for people that aren't accustomed to receiving "value." The company is betting on it and grooming people for the future....and it appears to be working.

Whatever.


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> And the Amtrak lsa is making at least double what the ground based service jobs are getting paid. Plus benefits.



Source, please? Additionally, I'd like you to quantify that purported salary difference against the quality of life and consider away time (paid versus unpaid), held over time (unpaid) and downtime (unpaid...per trip) and training (under CFR emergency preparedness plan and FDA training, which is a must for LSAs, Chefs and Food specialists) required.

Then, tell me if it is double.

Thanks.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Glassdoor.com says the average lsa salary is $23 per hour. Is that correct or incorrect? 

If it is... that’s double what the average coffee shop employee is making.

As for quality of life... that’s a whole different thing. Some may enjoy the so many days on and so many days off (which varies from train to train) schedule more than the typical 40 hour work week and sleep at home always. That’s a personal decision.


----------



## pennyk

In my opinion, on the Silver Meteor, the LSAs are working harder and are making fewer tips. The SCAs are also working harder (as an SCA and a server). I assume their tips are greater but I am not sure. I know many of the crew members and have made 4 trips on the Silver Meteor in a sleeper after October 1st. I do like the ability to spend time in the Sleeper Lounge and chat with other passengers. I have yet to talk to a passenger who likes the flex dining meals better than the traditional dining meals. I have yet to speak to an SCA who likes the flex dining meal service more than traditional dining. Generally, the LSAs do not have to chat.

Because of the age demographics on the Silver Meteor and the difficulty some passengers have carrying food on a moving train, I have offered to assist passengers carrying their food (and cleaning their tables). Although I am a "senior," I have very good balance "for my age."


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> Glassdoor.com says the average lsa salary is $23 per hour. Is that correct or incorrect?



Did Glassdoor tell you that there is a salary progression and it takes 7 to 11 years to achieve the maximum rate for most positions? Additionally, that is based upon the hourly wage. Since LARGE Swaths of the trips of OBS employees are UNPAID, what is the TRUE hourly rate for the obs service crew and do they double your unnamed convenience store based upon the hours they are on the property? 





crescent-zephyr said:


> As for quality of life... that’s a whole different thing. Some may enjoy the so many days on and so many days off (which varies from train to train) schedule more than the typical 40 hour work week and sleep at home always. That’s a personal decision.



Quality of life must be considered in the compensation, just like perks are considered when people look at a job. However, since this job is apparently so easy, just being on a train is obviously perk enough!

Perhaps they should pay us to work on the train.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Thirdrail7 said:


> Forgive the rant and aside, but how does this keep happening? They raise the fares and people continue to ride. They cut the amenities and people continue to ride. They cancel trains for weeks at a time and people continue to ride. Perhaps all the hand wringing in the thread and talk of slippery slopes is irrelevant to what the majority of riders are willing to accept. As a disclaimer, I don't fly. As such, I'm not that familiar with what occurs. As such, here is my theory: The bar has been set so low, that what is occurring on the trains is normal. Heck, it may even be a step up for people that aren't accustomed to receiving "value." The company is betting on it and grooming people for the future....and it appears to be working. Whatever.


Here's my theory: Americans ride Amtrak for the same reason we do business with Ticketmaster. Namely, we have little or no choice in the matter. If we want to travel long distance by train then in the vast majority of cases Amtrak is our one and only option.



Thirdrail7 said:


> I'd like you to quantify that purported salary difference versus the quality of life and consider away time, held over time and downtime...per trip.


Yes they work away from home, are often unpaid when traveling to and from the next shift, and do not enjoy easy in-person access to friends and family while they are away. Just like millions of contractors, consultants, and salespeople...most of whom have no meaningful representation and few employment benefits. Most of the convenience store workers I've encountered were overworked for minimal pay. Your implied contention that convenience store workers somehow have it better than Amtrak OBS is honestly kind of embarrassing.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thirdrail7 said:


> Did Glassdoor tell you that there is a salary progression and it takes 7 to 11 years to achieve the maximum rate for most positions? Additionally, that is based upon the hourly wage. Since LARGE Swaths of the trips of OBS employees are UNPAID, what is the TRUE hourly rate for the obs service crew and do they double your unnamed convenience store based upon the hours they are on the property?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quality of life must be considered in the compensation, just like perks are considered when people look at a job. However, since this job is apparently so easy, just being on a train is obviously perk enough!
> 
> Perhaps they should pay us to work on the train.



??? I'm a bit confused here. You don't think the average LSA makes more than the average coffee shop worker? I suggested, based on a quick google on glassdoor.com as evidence, that an LSA makes double. Do you disagree? And what do they make then... 25% more? 

I never said the job was easy or that riding the train is a perk of the job. I said I thought the LSA job was easy compared to most fast paced food service jobs. And that's my opinion.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Devil's Advocate said:


> Yes, they work away from home and do not enjoy easy in-person access to friends and family while they are away. Just like millions of contractors, consultants, and salespeople...most of whom have no meaningful representation and few if any dependable employment benefits. Your implied contention that convenience store workers somehow have it better than Amtrak OBS is embarrassingly out of touch.



We're not discussing contractors, consultants or salespeople. It was stated by a member of this board:



crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes and no. The LSA job is still pretty easy compared to most fast paced food service jobs in my opinion.



Personally, I don't think there is a comparison between since they are two different types of jobs, but one was made.

So, I'm not debating better or worse. I just want to know what the poster is using as criteria for the assessment of ease, plus if the total compensation is indeed double 9which I don't believe it ius,)


----------



## Anderson

Thirdrail7 said:


> Forgive the rant and aside, but how does this keep happening?
> 
> They raise the fares and people continue to ride.
> 
> They cut the amenities and people continue to ride.
> 
> They cancel trains for weeks at a time and people continue to ride.
> 
> Perhaps all the hand wringing in the thread and talk of slippery slopes is irrelevant to what the majority of riders are willing to accept.
> 
> As a disclaimer, I don't fly. As such, I'm not that familiar with what occurs.
> 
> As such, here is my theory:
> 
> The bar has been set so low, that what is occurring on the trains is normal. Heck, it may even be a step up for people that aren't accustomed to receiving "value." The company is betting on it and grooming people for the future....and it appears to be working.
> 
> Whatever.


So, a few thoughts here:
(1) Prior to the start of FY20, the only F&B cuts that had been put into place recently were:
-The Cap and LSL going to Contemptible Dining; and
-The loss of the PPC on the Starlight.

The Cap _did_ have a significant drop in ridership (IIRC it was somewhere over 5%). The LSL had a significant drop as well, but that was confounded by the whole case of that summer of not-running-to-NYP, so putting blame at either cause's feet is tricky. Both were also complicated by the fact that the cut occurred in the middle of the fiscal year. I'm looking forward to the year-end numbers so I can do a full chart update. There appear to have been some knock-on effects on the Meteor at the same time. Steve Musen was doing back-of-envelope work on this front and I'll see if I can get him to help me out.

(2) As to the overall increase in ridership on the LD trains, it is not clear _where _that happened, but I have the following stuff from Steve as of August:
"Ridership for the first five months was more than 634,000 greater than the comparable period in FY2018. So far for the year, Amtrak has carried 29,828,1?? (Amtrak rounds to the nearest hundred). On the long distance trains, the Palmetto is still the biggest loser with a drop-off of 12.2% followed by the Texas Eagle at -4.9% and Capitol Ltd with -4.8% (Nothing like late trains and lousy food to drive away customers). The biggest winner was (believe it or not) the Cardinal at 10.5% followed by the Lake Shore Ltd up 6.2%, Silver Starvation which is up 5.7%, and the Crescent at 5.5%."

The Palmetto is complicated since it is basically a corridor train that runs all day. The LSL would seem to be a "dead cat bounce" from FY18 (remember, cut service into NYP). And I would note that the 1% ridership increase on the LD trains does _not_ indicate what happened with revenue _or_ length-of-ride. One other thing of note is that Amtrak _has_ started selling seats on the NEC on the LD trains regularly (at least, SB), so that's probably an easy 25-50k for the Silvers, Cardinal, and Crescent.

Edit: And I suspect that the _Star_ has seen increased ridership due to this. That would definitely explain the _Crescent_ as well.


----------



## Thirdrail7

crescent-zephyr said:


> ??? I'm a bit confused here. You don't think the average LSA makes more than the average coffee shop worker? I suggested, based on a quick google on glassdoor.com as evidence, that an LSA makes double. Do you disagree? And what do they make then... 25% more?
> 
> I never said the job was easy or that riding the train is a perk of the job. I said I thought the LSA job was easy compared to most fast paced food service jobs. And that's my opinion.



You are entitled to your opinion but I don't agree with the salary figures. I look at the totality of the compensation of the job. I regard it in the same light as I regard delivery employees and salespeople, where you see "now hiring, up to $XX.00 an hour." That may be true but it is based upon your tips and/or commissions, which causesa dramatic drop in hourly income.

It is the same thing with the OBS crews because this is what is often left out



Devil's Advocate said:


> Yes they work away from home, are often unpaid when traveling to and from the next shift, and do not enjoy easy in-person access to friends and family while they are away.



What was left out is they are unpaid DURING their trip. When you calculate downtime, away time, and held over time, the hourly wage drops dramatically from when you start duty and are released from duty.

When OBS crews are on their downtime, this is uncompensated time. They are on that train receiving benefits, but not salary. When they turn, they are on held away time which means a meal allowance.

Example
Perhaps @pennyk can correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that the MIA crew of 92(8) will turn at NYP for the crew of 91(10). As such, they sign up at 11:20 am to depart at 11:50 am. The train is scheduled to arrive NYP at 6:50 pm on the 9th. That is 26 and 1/2 hours. However, the downtime (which differs by craft) isn't compensated. If a sleeping car attendant has two 5 slots of downtime (downtime has been increased), that is 10 hours that isn't compensated, yet you are still on the train, governed by the rules as if you were working. LSAs usually have two 2 breaks and night downtime (which varies by train) but it totals 10 hours on the Star

Assuming you arrive at NYP on time, you are now released. However, you can't go home. You are still governed by rules as if you are on duty. Technically, when you get to your hotel (or wherever they go when they disappear), they can't have a drink or take medicine even though they aren't being compensated.. Your uncompensated time is still governed by the same rules when you're working on the train.

At this point, the uncompensated time is from 720pm on the 9th to 1020am on the 10th.

91's crew signs up, leaves NYP at 1100am on the 10th and arrives in MIA on the 11th. If they are on time, they are released at 720pm.

With the same downtime on each train, you roughly received 34 hours of pay for this trip. Using your 23 dollar wage, that comes out to 782 dollars for this round trip. Not bad. However, you were on the property and subject to duty and conduct rules for almost 80 hours. You are not free to come and go as you please, drink (if that is your thing) take certain medications since you are not completely released from duty until you return to your crew base and are expected to respond if necessary. That, of course, assumes the train isn't canceled and you stuck for days in some city without compensation or you make it to your turn around point. I'm willing to bet convenience store workers can party down when they get off work and can often call for help if there is manpower available.

Calculating the total time, your true hourly wage for the trip closer to 10 dollars an hour. This is one of the reasons why there is such a high turnover rate in this department particularly since it takes 8 years or so to reach the top wage.

Again, this isn't about better or worse. I don't think these conditions (or bumping along the railroad for days at a time) scream "easy."

It's not something that I would prefer to do....and I did work at a convenience store. I also delivered food when I was in school.


----------



## pennyk

Thirdrail7 said:


> Example
> Perhaps @pennyk can correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that the MIA crew of 92(8) will turn at NYP for the crew of 91(10). As such, they sign up at 11:20 am to depart at 11:50 am. The train is scheduled to arrive NYP at 6:50 pm on the 9th. That is 26 and 1/2 hours. However, the downtime (which differs by craft) isn't compensated. If a sleeping car attendant has two 5 slots of downtime (downtime has been increased), that is 10 hours that isn't compensated, yet you are still on the train, governed by the rules as if you were working. LSAs usually have two 2 breaks and night downtime (which varies by train) but it totals 10 hours on the Star


Generally the crew of 92(8) will turn at NYP for the crew of 97(10). The crew of 98(8) will turn at NYP for the crew of 91(10). However, the SCA in 9812 and the LSA in 98 will turn on 97. The crew switch between the Star and Meteor was made 1-2 years ago. Prior to that, crews were exclusive to Star and Meteor. Generally, SCAs with more seniority chose the Meteor. Prior to the removal of the Star's diner, crews would switch (98/91; 92/97).
A friend of mine is a Silver SCA, and, up until recently, was working 92/97. As soon as she was able to switch, she did so. She is now working 98/91. 92 arrives in NYP fairly late and the down time tends to be shorter than the down time for 98/91.


----------



## Chey

crescent-zephyr said:


> Glassdoor.com says the average lsa salary is $23 per hour. Is that correct or incorrect?
> 
> If it is... that’s double what the average coffee shop employee is making.



More than double in a lot of places.


----------



## jis

I think a more relevant number is what would be something like the average monthly take home that employees get. As for what privation they choose to accept in order to make that much, that is between them and their maker. Hourly numbers don't make much sense for comparison purposes in jobs that require people to work (or not be free to do whatever they choose) beyond the hours that are billable for pay calculation. Some reasonable larger aggregate like monthly or annual makes more sense.

Thinking back I recall that when I was working, in general my billable hours were 40 per week, though in general I routinely worked 50 - 70 hours each week just to get rated in the top quartile. But the pay (and on rare occasions the bonus) was more than good, so I did not care whatever the accountants saw fit to plug in as the hourly rate for the fake number of hours they needed, to get the final number


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## crescent-zephyr

glassdoor lists average lsa makes $54k a year.

I’m not saying an lsa is paid too much by the way. I’m saying they have a comparatively easy job and are adequately paid for the inconveniences of all the travel.


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> I agree that reducing the quality/quantity of the food service should result in cheaper sleeper prices - that said ...
> 
> My work and travels take me into many Convenience Stores of various brands. most of them offer breakfast and lunch items. I know these are not "1st class" offerings ... however, there are usually very few clerks in a convenience store and they handle sales, receiving, cleaning as well as keeping the hot foods hot and the cold foods cold and all of them stocked in far more quantities that any train offers.
> 
> They manage to offer food that is better than much of what I have had on the train, a wider variety of that food, and in much better condition even when "kept hot" than some of the "freshly heated" food I have had from the cafe car.
> 
> They do this and turn a profit!
> 
> If a Convenience Store can do this with less employees who are most likely paid less than Amtrak personnel - Amtrak should be able to do this also.



In my experience, the "flex dining" and the cafe car fare (at least on the Northeast Regional) are superior to convenience store food. The higher prices are simply the "captive audience" effect, same as why they sell overpriced beer and hot dogs at ballparks.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> In my experience, the "flex dining" and the cafe car fare (at least on the Northeast Regional) are superior to convenience store food. The higher prices are simply the "captive audience" effect, same as why they sell overpriced beer and hot dogs at ballparks.



I’m guessing you’ve never been to a sheetz!


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Glassdoor.com says the average lsa salary is $23 per hour. Is that correct or incorrect?


Where does Glassdoor get their "average salary" number from, anyway? Do they survey every Amtrak LSA, or is this a self-selected sample of people who happen to register for Glassdoor? This might not be a representative sample, and so the "average" might not really mean anything.

And why the apparent need to be critical of low ranking service workers just because they're fortunate enough to have a job that pay a living wage? It's so important to have fresh-cooked diner car food that we need to mistreat and underpay the service workers who make it happen?


----------



## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m guessing you’ve never been to a sheetz!


I have a Sheetz discount card. My daughter lived on Sheetz when she was in college, the dorm food was so bad. I am a regular patron of Sheetz when I am driving through the Sheetz service area. (They haven't made it to Baltimore yet, but they are in Carroll County.)

Sheetz does not serve "convenience store" food. They are a convenience store with a fast-food operation. The sandwiches are cooked to order by a kitchen staff. This would not scale up (or over) to train operations. You would need the same staffing as in a traditional dining car. So you're back to square one. Sheetz is not a model for Amtrak, and, indeed, I don't think they'd be interested in taking on the contract.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Where does Glassdoor get their "average salary" number from, anyway? Do they survey every Amtrak LSA, or is this a self-selected sample of people who happen to register for Glassdoor? This might not be a representative sample, and so the "average" might not really mean anything.
> 
> And why the apparent need to be critical of low ranking service workers just because they're fortunate enough to have a job that pay a living wage? It's so important to have fresh-cooked diner car food that we need to mistreat and underpay the service workers who make it happen?



I don’t know. That’s why I said “Glassdoor.com says” and not “this is a fact.” If anyone has a better source for the average salary or average hourly pay please let me know.

I wasn’t trying to be critical... and certainly I don’t think I was suggesting anyone should mistreat service workers?


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## Qapla

I can see both sides of the time/salary/home difference in land based workers as opposed to train based workers.

However, when I forst posted about the convenience store food - it was not meant to be taken as a shot at the Amtrak employees and the service they provide ...it was intended to be aimed at the "food".

Since I have not had the new dining options on the trains as yet - I can only go by what was reported. With that in mind, the point I was trying to make was that, since the food offered in most of the name brand convenience stores I have been in sounds to be far superior to the new meals on board the train ... why can't Amtrak adjust their food to something better and still turn a profit.

I do know that the food service in name brand convenience stores operate at profit



As a side thought - when was the last time you tipped a clerk in the convenience store?


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## crescent-zephyr

That was my original point too. It seems that 1 employee in the kitchen could still cook a few items on board, not just reheat frozen dinner trays. 

Sure you couldn’t do steaks cooked to order, but it seems there are better options.

I do hope we will see small improvements when the pre-ordering is introduced. Perhaps then I can at least get a gluten free dessert.


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## SarahZ

I'd be pretty stoked if Amtrak started serving nachos and taquitos, but I'm guessing that isn't what you guys mean when you say "convenience store food".


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## Qapla

SarahZ said:


> I'd be pretty stoked if Amtrak started serving nachos and taquitos, but I'm guessing that isn't what you guys mean when you say "convenience store food".



Sure, why not.

The convenience stores I go to have nachos, taquitos, hot dogs, pulled pork sandwiches, pizza, breakfast sandwiches, lunchables, fresh fruit, a variety of cold sandwiches and other selections.


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## jis

I thought Amtrak Cafes did have a Chip and Salsa pack. Has that disappeared of late?


----------



## SarahZ

jis said:


> I thought Amtrak Cafes did have a Chip and Salsa pack. Has that disappeared of late?


I don't think I've seen those. I usually get either the crackers and cheese platter or the pretzels with hummus.


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## PVD

I seem to remember them some years ago, but I don't remember which trains. Haven't seen them in quite some time....But I keep looking for cheesecake slices from the New Skete Nuns (long time ago on Empire Service)....


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> I thought Amtrak Cafes did have a Chip and Salsa pack. Has that disappeared of late?



They were rolled out with the original cross country cafe concept from about 10 years ago. They were on many national menus also along with other appetizers such as chicken wings. Most of the time the dining car was “out” of the appetizers. I’m not sure if the staff didn’t want to serve them, or they stopped stocking them on certain trains. I do remember riding the lake shore limited and a table mate ordered the chicken wings.


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> I thought Amtrak Cafes did have a Chip and Salsa pack. Has that disappeared of late?


Gone about 5-6 years ago....


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## nferr

This topic is off the rails. trying to compare the LSA position on a long distance train to a convenience store worker is insane IMO.


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## Anderson

crescent-zephyr said:


> They were rolled out with the original cross country cafe concept from about 10 years ago. They were on many national menus also along with other appetizers such as chicken wings. Most of the time the dining car was “out” of the appetizers. I’m not sure if the staff didn’t want to serve them, or they stopped stocking them on certain trains. I do remember riding the lake shore limited and a table mate ordered the chicken wings.


They also got rid of a "standard" chicken caesar salad in the last Regional menu overhaul. Instead, the only salad option is some hipster crap with quinoa.


----------



## SanDiegan

Rail Freak said:


> OH MAN, what an idea!!!! Got My Vote!



Popeye’s chicken sandwiches ! People would be fighting to get on Amtrak


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## erierail

nferr said:


> This topic is off the rails. trying to compare the LSA position on a long distance train to a convenience store worker is insane IMO.


Arnt these guys all union. That number probably reflects amtrak contribution to thier pension and health care. Most fast food workers are not offered many benifits


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## Qapla

nferr said:


> This topic is off the rails. trying to compare the LSA position on a long distance train to a convenience store worker is insane IMO.



You're right, if that is the point gotten from my post about convenience stores then those following the comparison of the LSA to a store clerk are on the siding track - the comment was intended to compare the relative quality, diversity and availability of the food offered, not the people serving it ... along with the idea that convenience stores make a profit even with this low cost food service system.


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## erierail

nferr said:


> This topic is off the rails. trying to compare the LSA position on a long distance train to a convenience store worker is insane IMO.


Indeed claims that LSA make 15.32 an hour. LSA supervisors, 32.00 an hour. Dont know how accurate this might be.


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## crescent-zephyr

erierail said:


> Indeed claims that LSA make 15.32 an hour. LSA supervisors, 32.00 an hour. Dont know how accurate this might be.



The average is.... $23 an hour. So yeah that fits with what Glassdoor says. I don’t think there is an LSA supervisor is there? An LSA is an LSA afaik.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I don't remember the particulars, but it seems like @ one time after the elimination of the Train Chief (??) Position , the Diner Steward was the " Supervisor" of the OBS on the Train.( under the Authority of the Conductor)

I dont believe this appliesd to the LSA in the Cafe also???

Any Amtrak employees have the Current info???


----------



## me_little_me

Qapla said:


> Sure, why not.
> 
> The convenience stores I go to have nachos, taquitos, hot dogs, pulled pork sandwiches, pizza, breakfast sandwiches, lunchables, fresh fruit, a variety of cold sandwiches and other selections.


You forgot the healthy stuff - fresh donuts not just packaged muffins. Remember, fresh is healthy - even if it is all corn syrup and sugar along with trans fats.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> I don't remember the particulars, but it seems like @ one time after the elimination of the Train Chief (??) Position , the Diner Steward was the " Supervisor" of the OBS on the Train.( under the Authority of the Conductor)
> 
> I dont believe this appliesd to the LSA in the Cafe also???
> 
> Any Amtrak employees have the Current info???


Didn't that whole thing lead to a major kerfuffle with the Unions and the whole concept of OBS Supervisor was dropped?

Incidentally, in most other countries for reserved trains with significant OBS there usually is a Supervisor separate from the operating crew, something like the Chief Purser on an airline flight.


----------



## OBS

Bob Dylan said:


> I don't remember the particulars, but it seems like @ one time after the elimination of the Train Chief (??) Position , the Diner Steward was the " Supervisor" of the OBS on the Train.( under the Authority of the Conductor)
> 
> I dont believe this appliesd to the LSA in the Cafe also???
> 
> Any Amtrak employees have the Current info???


Both things you stated are correct.


----------



## Qapla

We ate at The Olive Garden for lunch and they are having their "take home an Entree for $5" ... 

It struck me that the take-home meal is reheated in much the same way as the new dining on the East LD Trains - and once heated, all things considered, I think I'd rather eat the $5 "frozen dinner" from Olive Garden than the overpriced meals people have pictured from the train


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## lordsigma

I am currently on 448 tonight from SPG to BOS. I just went to the café car to get a beverage...…….I thought about asking the café car attendant about how flex dining is going but didn't have the heart to. I have to admit though I am enjoying the newly improved Amfleet 2 seating in my car. I also noticed sleeper Croton River is on 448 tonight....that's somewhat scary that car seems to be following me. I have slept on it twice two years ago on the Crescent (both directions) and it was on my train on the Meteor earlier this year both ways. It seems whenever I take a train with Viewliners Croton River is there.


----------



## jiml

me_little_me said:


> You forgot the healthy stuff - fresh donuts not just packaged muffins. Remember, fresh is healthy - even if it is all corn syrup and sugar along with trans fats.


----------



## PaTrainFan

I know this subject has been beaten to death here, but up to this point I have been unhappy yet accepting of the changes. That is, until I read this story. Now I'm ticked. Data my...you know what.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/tran...itional-dining-car-some-long-distance-trains/


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## Amtrakfflyer

What a crock. This isn’t what customers want. The surveys were a shame just like the bus survey they did for the SWC. Of course ridership numbers are steady it’s been 5 weeks! Correct me if I’m wrong the LS and CL are slightly down since it started quite a while before on them.


----------



## neroden

You are correct. LSL ridership and revenue went down a few months after each dining downgrade (it had several downgrades before the final atrocity). The ridership loss on the other trains will be visible in a year... riders just have not discovered the downgrades yet. The revenue and ridership crash has a natural time lag.


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## ehbowen

neroden said:


> You are correct. LSL ridership and revenue went down a few months after each dining downgrade (it had several downgrades before the final atrocity). The ridership loss on the other trains will be visible in a year... riders just have not discovered the downgrades yet. The revenue and ridership crash has a natural time lag.


I'm afraid that Amtrak management is going to interpret these numbers in a "heads I win, tails you lose" manner. Ridership stays steady immediately after the food service cuts? Obviously they're fine with our customer base. Ridership goes into a steady decline throughout the following year? Obviously no one wants to ride long distance trains anymore; time for more cuts!


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## lordsigma

They will view it as a success if the lower expenses make up for any revenue loss from lower ridership. What the ridership drop would have to be to make it a net negative not sure. Probably look at multiple years of Capitol limited ridership to see if its affect on the overall loss of the LD trains has decreased - if it has they’ll call a success (the best train to look at right now because the first year of the new dining on the LSL had no New York section so not a fare comparison and LSL ridership recovered a bit this year with the restoration to normal service.)


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## Amtrakfflyer

To take it a step farther I think Anderson is treating the dining cars as a diversion. He’s on record as wanting or scheming to dismantle the network, 5-10 trains. He was able to skate through yesterday’s major hearing and we only hear reports about the dining cars in the news. A quote on the importance of table cloths....really?


----------



## keelhauled

If Amtrak brass was hellbent on killing long distance trains, all they have to legally do is issue a discontinuance notice effective in 180 days. They fact that they haven't done so seems to me to indicate that their plans are at least somewhat less simplistic than a simple "long distance train=bad" equation.


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## MARC Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> To take it a step farther I think Anderson is treating the dining cars as a diversion. He’s on record as wanting or scheming to dismantle the network, 5-10 trains. He was able to skate through yesterday’s major hearing and we only hear reports about the dining cars in the news. A quote on the importance of table cloths....really?


Tablecloths? There weren't any tablecloths on the Texas Eagle when I rode it down to the gathering, and they had traditional diner service? This isn't about tablecloths.

I don't know whether to pin such misleading stuff on Amtrak management or a lazy reporter who has decided what this is about without spending the time to contact other sources (like the RPA) privately before writing the story.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Read the article the counterproductive table cloth quote came from Jim Matthews of RPA.

“I got stacks of letters in my office from folks who really don’t want to see that pass,” Mathews said. “They understand that maybe we can’t have the big, thick filet anymore, but the idea of sitting at a table with no tablecloth … that’s just not what they were looking for and certainly not what they paid for.”


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## Rasputin

Amtrakfflyer said:


> A quote on the importance of table cloths....really?



I don't know what the fetish is about table cloths. I dined recently at about 8 or 9 very good restaurants in DC including one that was listed in a recent New York Times article about the best new restaurants in DC. Only two of the restaurants used table cloths. The restaurant mentioned in the Times article did not. 

The RPA's concern about the lack of table cloths is misguided and counterproductive. It is the quality of the food, period.


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## jis

RPA has no fetish about table cloth. It was a passing comment on examples of things that RPA surveys have thrown up. It is fine that some don't agree with a particular issue that keeps coming up in surveys. But that does not change the fact that they do come up in surveys. So maybe it is time to give up the fetish about others deemed fetish about table cloth?


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## Rasputin

jis said:


> RPA has no fetish about table cloth. It was a passing comment on examples of things that RPA surveys have thrown up. It is fine that some don't agree with a particular issue that keeps coming up in surveys. But that does not change the fact that they do come up in surveys. So maybe it is time to give up the fetish about others deemed fetish about table cloth?


Why would RPA even mention such a side issue such as table cloths (how about flowers, were they mentioned?) which is a distraction and only provides fodder to the enemies of long distance trains?


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## Mystic River Dragon

I read a column by Jim Mathews in the latest _Passenger Train Journal,_ and he seemed defiant about people not accepting flex dining and the change from traditional dining. I can't quite get where he's coming from--passenger advocate or unwitting tool of Amtrak management--and I'm not sure he knows himself. He sounded awfully defensive.

(The editor's column was labeled "Food Fight"--the editor said he had planned to address the Amtrak food issue in his column until he saw all the articles coming in and realized just about every one had something to say about the flex dining, so he let them speak for themselves. He also said that, in his 48 years of covering rail, he had never heard so much outcry about what was happening with the food.)

The articles, by the way, ranged from very negative about it to Jim's very positive about it.


----------



## jis

The real tragedy is that outside the rail advocacy and some of the frequent rider community, others don't seem to care much either way. That is why Amtrak's survey based data shows something different from what we in the advocacy community would like to see.

Unfortunately, no one has done a carefully designed sample survey, so it is hard to accept validity of any of the surveys whether it be Amtrak's or RPA's. The results simply depend on the self selected group that chose to respond. In the RPA surveys in the past things like Flower Vases seemed to occupy an inordinately high priority. Of course people also want their Filet Super Chief style, which everyone knows is not going to happen in a subsidized operation given the political climate.

Things like lower fare will always be in opposition to more expensive to provide better service. That is what some sort of a balanced scorecard kind of approach is important in managing something like this. But I have never seen anyone try to analyze the business in a well organized way that they have been willing to share.


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## jis

Rasputin said:


> Why would RPA even mention such a side issue such as table cloths (how about flowers, were they mentioned?) which is a distraction and only provides fodder to the enemies of long distance trains?


Flowers is passe. That was fashionable to winge about several years back. Why would an issue that is mentioned over and over again in survey not be mentioned in answer to a question about what people complain about? Clearly something that is important to the customers is not just a distraction because you feel not so strongly about it. Many think it is a legitimate thing that costs almost nothing and takes something away from the overall dining experience.


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## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> my experience, the "flex dining" and the cafe car fare (at least on the Northeast Regional) are superior to convenience store food.


The long distance trains have a rather more limited snack service than the Northeast Regional. Convenience stores where I live have better food than anything I've seen from flex dining. That being said I don't make a habit of eating cheap gas station food so I'm not sure why I'm expected to tolerate it at first class prices.



MARC Rider said:


> And why the apparent need to be critical of low ranking service workers just because they're fortunate enough to have a job that pay a living wage? It's so important to have fresh-cooked diner car food that we need to mistreat and underpay the service workers who make it happen?


Why do you keep trying to turn this into some sort of class warfare debate?



keelhauled said:


> If Amtrak brass was hellbent on killing long distance trains, all they have to legally do is issue a discontinuance notice effective in 180 days. They fact that they haven't done so seems to me to indicate that their plans are at least somewhat less simplistic than a simple "long distance train=bad" equation.


Anderson has already said he's okay with removing some long distance routes while leaving others intact. If he received limited push back after threatening to turn parts of the Southwest Chief into a bus route I have little doubt he would have made good on his threats. If you disagree then it's Anderson you're arguing with and not us.


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## Amtrakfflyer

The table cloth comments should never have been brought up in a hearing in front of Congress, legitimate survey or not. It plays right into Andersons narrative that long distance riders are just rail enthusiasts. 

More disturbing to me was today’s RPA email at 10:00am eastern time. The two highlighted green areas sound like Amtrak PR. Touting all Amtrak’s achievements and progress in expanding corridors. 

The second green highlighted area also could have written been by Amtrak management as reasons to kill/break up network trains. The gist was they aren’t feasible due to freight delays and aging equipment. While true keep in mind Anderson requested a lower subsidy for next fiscal year. Maintenance desperately needs to be done. Two 10 hour delays this week alone on the SWC due to power failures. I think RPA means well but I’ll leave it at that.

I’ll try to copy the boxes below. 

RPA email 11/14/19

Did you know......?

This year Amtrak carried over 32 million customers, a ridership increase that was seen across the Northeast Corridor and state-supported business lines. 
There is more work being done at the state level and the private sector than ever before, with great strides happening to bring next-generation passenger rail service to our nation’s three most populous states: Florida, Texas, and California. 
Rail Passengers has led conversations with Amtrak leadership about exciting growth plans for select short-distance corridors, including expanding the..
_Host Railroad Delays Threaten National Network Viability_

Roughly 54% of all long-distance trains are delayed, which translates to two-thirds of the passengers on these interstate corridors arriving at their destination late.
While the average delay for long-distance passengers is 49 minutes, it is often much longer, with one in every five long-distance trips resulting in delays of two hours or more. 
Across the entire network, delays caused by freight trains totaled nearly 1.2 million minutes of delay to Amtrak trains in FY 2018 — that’s over two years of lost time.
_Passengers at the Mercy of an Aging Fleet_

Amtrak’s fleet averages nearly 33 years of age and its diesel locomotives average nearly 21 years of age.
As of last year, the 461 Amfleet I’s ranged from 41 to 44 years old; the 145 Amfleet II’s are about 38 years old.







Mystic River Dragon said:


> I read a column by Jim Mathews in the latest _Passenger Train Journal,_ and he seemed defiant about people not accepting flex dining and the change from traditional dining. I can't quite get where he's coming from--passenger advocate or unwitting tool of Amtrak management--and I'm not sure he knows himself.


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## jis

Almost anything that highlights Amtrak sorry state could be viewed as an invitation to dismantle Amtrak, and yet the same thing could be about appealing for greater support for Amtrak to catch up on the backlog. It depends a lot on the state of mind of the reader perhaps.

In the hearing Amtrak was also criticized for the higher costs, lack of transparency and user unfriendliness in the space of contracted state supported operations (Amtrak gets over $200 million added to its bottom line from the state supports alone), and there was a very informative discussion about how PRIIA 2008 is partly to blame for that. The lady from California was very forthright in providing a clear example contrasting their experience with Herzog - the primary contractor for the ACE service, and Amtrak, the primary contractor for the San Joaquin service. Amtrak looks pretty miserable, and one could come to the conclusion that it should be dismantled in its entirety, or at least be banned from contracting state supported services. And yet, the same facts could be used to fix the next Authorization removing the one size fits all requirement in PRIIA Clause 209 which leads to these kinds of silliness, like California is not allowed to have any say on what maintenance should or should not be done on equipment that California owns, or see any break down of how the prices quoted by Amtrak are arrived at!


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## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> The long distance trains have a rather more limited snack service than the Northeast Regional. Convenience stores where I live have better food than anything I've seen from flex dining. That being said I don't make a habit of eating cheap gas station food so I'm not sure why I'm expected to tolerate it at first class prices.



Hey, I just had lunch at a "gas station" convenience store yesterday. And bad as flex dining is, it's better than what I had yesterday. (I'm really afraid Sheetz is going downhill on the food quality side.) Oh, and by the way, there were 4 people back in the kitchen at Sheetz, as well as 2 cashiers. Not to mention the fact that the location is on a highway with thousands of cars passing by every day. Not a very good model for emulation by Amtrak, whose trains may have, if they're lucky, a couple of hundred people on board at mealtime, most of whom don't seem to be interested in dining. On my recent trip on the Cardinal, we had 12 sleeper passengers. Added to that was maybe 10-15 people in business class, and three coaches, one of which was filled up by what seemed to be a school excursion from Prince to White Sulfur Springs. That's not exactly a huge potential market for selling any kind of food.




> Why do you keep trying to turn this into some sort of class warfare debate?



Hey, I'm not the one who keep bringing up the fact that Amtrak OBS are so "well paid." (With the implication that if we only treated those undeserving lazy bums the way other food service workers are treated, we could go back to the golden age of tablecloths and filet mignon included with a cheap sleeper ticket price.)


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## MARC Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Read the article the counterproductive table cloth quote came from Jim Matthews of RPA.
> 
> “I got stacks of letters in my office from folks who really don’t want to see that pass,” Mathews said. “They understand that maybe we can’t have the big, thick filet anymore, but the idea of sitting at a table with no tablecloth … that’s just not what they were looking for and certainly not what they paid for.”


Whoops, mea culpa. I need to read more carefully next time.


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## crescent-zephyr

Regarding table cloths, flowers, etc. - nobody has a fetish for such things.... they are simple things that show that someone cares about presentation.

For what it’s worth... tablecloths for roomette tables exist, when my sca on the meteor brought me my dinner she put down a nice little table cloth on my roomette table.


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## MARC Rider

Rasputin said:


> I don't know what the fetish is about table cloths. I dined recently at about 8 or 9 very good restaurants in DC including one that was listed in a recent New York Times article about the best new restaurants in DC. Only two of the restaurants used table cloths. The restaurant mentioned in the Times article did not.
> 
> The RPA's concern about the lack of table cloths is misguided and counterproductive. It is the quality of the food, period.


Well, the quality of the service also has some importance. At the very least, it should be fast and courteous.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Some of the best Meals I've had in my Long Life were served without a Table,let alone White Table Clothes or Fancy Table Wear.

When you're paying Big Bucks for a Stared Dining Expierence, this is part of the Total Package, but riding on a Train or Plane, such things are not really necessary, just tasty,healthy,affordable well prepared food is the thing!


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## crescent-zephyr

From my personal experience, my #1 complaint is the quality and variety of food followed by the over all presentation. It screams microwave dinner. 

Even though the service style leaves a lot to be desired... I can be happy with all of the other changes including the lack of table service, lack of tablecloths, even lack of real silverware.


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## crescent-zephyr

Rasputin said:


> I don't know what the fetish is about table cloths. I dined recently at about 8 or 9 very good restaurants in DC including one that was listed in a recent New York Times article about the best new restaurants in DC. Only two of the restaurants used table cloths. The restaurant mentioned in the Times article did not.
> 
> The RPA's concern about the lack of table cloths is misguided and counterproductive. It is the quality of the food, period.



Care to offer the names of these restaurants? I’d love to google them and see what the interiors look like. I’m guessing that despite the table cloths they seemed a bit more classy than an Amtrak dining car.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Without trying to be cliche I think the old “Denny’s on wheels” analogy is appropriate. Reasonable food at reasonable prices. No table clothes or flowers required. For cheap (almost free) ambiance put some classy looking posters back in the empty diner poster frame holders.


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## Palmland

crescent-zephyr said:


> Regarding table cloths, flowers, etc. - nobody has a fetish for such things.... they are simple things that show that someone cares about presentation.
> 
> For what it’s worth... tablecloths for roomette tables exist, when my sca on the meteor brought me my dinner she put down a nice little table cloth on my roomette table.



I would agree with others that tablecloths and linen napkins are not necessary. Amtrak efforts at faux fine dining were pointless. 

But would it be too much to ask to have a stack of paper table mats available for passengers to use to: give the semblance of a decent restaurant as well as some sanitary protection when your roll falls off the plastic dish so that it doesn’t hit the tabletop that probably hasn’t been cleaned in some time. They even do that at McD!

Also, if they can serve wine in a plastic cup, why not coffee? I liked the ones in the past and coffee is more enjoyable when served in them especially for the second or third cup. Or can you even get seconds with flex dining?


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## Palmetto

You have to remember that a representative of this organization told us that s/he was excited about the new "flexible dining" options, and that we would be, also. Really? Conclusion: food quality isn't important, at least to that spokesperson. While we're on the subject: bring back the real flowers, and the metal creamers.


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## ehbowen

For dinner in a moving restaurant (rail or ship), a tablecloth is appropriate to help keep plates from sliding around!


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Regarding table cloths, flowers, etc. - nobody has a fetish for such things.... they are simple things that show that someone cares about presentation.
> 
> For what it’s worth... tablecloths for roomette tables exist, when my sca on the meteor brought me my dinner she put down a nice little table cloth on my roomette table.


An ancient religious sage once wrote, "Don't pay attention to the bottle, but rather to the wine that is inside."
Unfortunately, in our culture, we pay too much attention to outward appearances, like "presentation" of food, and less attention to the food itself, whether it is nutritious or even tastes good. 
I was perfectly happy with the place mats they had in the diner on the Texas Eagle. It didn't detract from the food in any way. 
If eliminating tablecloths or fancy presentation makes the bean-counters happy, thereby preserving what food service we have, it doesn't bother me.


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## MARC Rider

Palmland said:


> Also, if they can serve wine in a plastic cup, why not coffee? I liked the ones in the past and coffee is more enjoyable when served in them especially for the second or third cup. Or can you even get seconds with flex dining?



Actually, if I can't get coffee in a ceramic mug, I prefer a paper cup. Those little plastic cups they used to use in the dining cars hardly held any coffee, and the coffee got cold too quickly.

In flex dining, you can get all the non-alcoholic drinks you want. No refills if you buy in the cafe car, but that's true even on the Acela.


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## Rasputin

crescent-zephyr said:


> Care to offer the names of these restaurants? I’d love to google them and see what the interiors look like. I’m guessing that despite the table cloths they seemed a bit more classy than an Amtrak dining car.


The ones that I recall offhand were (spelling may be off on some):

La Plaza (Eastern Market area)
Miketto
IMMMThai
Pizzeria Paradiso
St. Anselm
Cava at Union Station 

They were all very good places. Cava is fast food and the one at Union Station comes with pigeons.


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## Anderson

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Read the article the counterproductive table cloth quote came from Jim Matthews of RPA.
> 
> “I got stacks of letters in my office from folks who really don’t want to see that pass,” Mathews said. “They understand that maybe we can’t have the big, thick filet anymore, but the idea of sitting at a table with no tablecloth … that’s just not what they were looking for and certainly not what they paid for.”


I think the overarching point, and indeed one thing I got at in my trip report, is that while breakfast may be an unfixable challenge in some respects (though I wouldn't mind being able to order some bacon (or other breakfast meat) and I _know_ there's microwavable bacon out there...or even getting a "cold meat and cheese" breakfast _a la_ what I often end up with in Europe), lunch/dinner goes from being a modest negative to a _massive_ negative when the presentation goes from "served at a table with a passing thought on presentation" to either self-service at a counter or a takeout bag.

A pretty good example of "Amtrak doesn't give a f***" presentation was in my trip report in the last Hotline: Something as simple as having a plastic bowl for cream and sugar packets (for my coffee) would have had a slight positive impact. Just tossing them on a paper plate almost comes off as _intentionally_ not caring.


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## Anderson

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, if I can't get coffee in a ceramic mug, I prefer a paper cup. Those little plastic cups they used to use in the dining cars hardly held any coffee, and the coffee got cold too quickly.
> 
> In flex dining, you can get all the non-alcoholic drinks you want. No refills if you buy in the cafe car, but that's true even on the Acela.


The first issue is that on the Acela, food/drink service is available in First Class at all times, so you don't have an extended period where you can't get a drink. The hours of the ex-diner are somewhat scattershot.
The second issue is that Amtrak is _clearly_ capable of offering free non-alcoholic beverages out of a cafe car and handling the accounting. Witness the receipts you have to sign for on a Regional.
The _third_ issue is the big one, however: The relevant literature says you get free non-alcoholic beverages. It does not say "only from the dining car" (or lounge or whatever).

Issues one and three mean that there are decent slugs of time where the cafe is open but the diner is closed, so sleeper pax can't get a free drink (alcoholic or otherwise and one free alcoholic beverage _is_ included) and that this is the case isn't clear from their literature. If the hours were mirrored, that would be one thing; they aren't, so it isn't.

Issues two and three come off as Amtrak either being neglectful, lazy, or intentionally deceptive in the marketing. "Complimentary beverages are available throughout your journey" with no disclaimer of "from car X", particularly when providing the benefit in question from the cafe would be as simple as copying over a set of F&B prices from the _Regionals_, is pretty stupid.


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## AmtrakBlue

I’m pretty sure the sleeper lounge LSA was “available” all day, except during required breaks (like the cafe car LSA). On at least one of the 3 trains I was on for my recent trip the LSA was getting drinks for people throughout the morning up to when I detrained at lunch time.


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## lordsigma

I watched the full congressional hearing from the other day. After saying how he appreciates that some rail fans enjoy the traditional dining and have fond memories of the old days, he stated something like that he thinks they should invest in that on a "few stellar routes." Maybe this means the cuts won't be coming to all the western trains. I guess we'll have to see.


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## jis

Previously he has specifically named three routes - the Empire Builder, the California Zephyr and the Coast Starlight. So we sort of know which the stellar routes are. Maybe there are additional ones yet to be named, maybe not.


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## Rasputin

jis said:


> Previously he has specifically named three routes - the Empire Builder, the California Zephyr and the Coast Starlight. So we sort of know which the stellar routes are. Maybe there are additional ones yet to be named, maybe not.


It might soon be 1967-71 all over again. Time to ride the non-stellar trains while they are still with us.


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## Amtrakfflyer

And no guarantee those trains won’t be tri-weekly or less, especially considering he keeps using the code word “experiential”. As important as what Anderson says, it’s also important what he doesn’t say. I could see him proposing the Zephyr once or twice a week ala the Canadian.


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## jis

There is absolutely no guarantee about anything regarding passenger rail in the US until the establishment embraces the concept across the board. They have resisted mightily for half a century believing in its obsolescence. We will know things have changed when people start losing elections because they were seen as causing something bad to happen to someone’s train service. This happens in some regions, but not yet at a national level. So LD trains remain at risk for the time being.


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## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> There is absolutely no guarantee about anything regarding passenger rail in the US until the establishment embraces the concept across the board. They have resisted mightily for half a century believing in its obsolescence. We will know things have changed when people start losing elections because they were seen as causing something bad to happen to someone’s train service. This happens in some regions, but not yet at a national level. So LD trains remain at risk for the time being.


Amtrak was embraced at the national level with full support by the Obama administration and his first congress, which turned out to be the kiss of death in the eyes of the "loyal opposition."


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## jis

Presidential administration is only a part of the establishment. If the establishment had really embraced then the embrace would have continued beyond Obama, like for example the highway program.


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## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Presidential administration are only a part of the establishment. If the establishment had really embraced then the embrace would have continued beyond Obama, like for example the highway program.


Both Obama _and_ his first congress embraced passenger rail at the national level. I'm not sure what you expected our glacial judicial branch to do during that time span. Emboldened and undaunted the opposition simply threw passenger rail under the bus at the state and regional level until they could regain control at the national level. My own hometown amended the city charter to ensure metro rail proponents would never come knocking again. The point being that there is nothing a two party "Jekyll and Hyde" government can embrace today that cannot be stabbed in the back tomorrow. If you doubt me just ask the Kurds what they think of being embraced by our establishment.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Devil's Advocate said:


> Emboldened and undaunted the opposition simply threw passenger rail under the bus at the state and regional level could until they could regain control at the national level. My own hometown amended the city charter to ensure passenger rail proponents would never come knocking again.



It does depends on the state, though, DA. Maine and Virginia, for example, seem pretty good at not only keeping rail going, but also improving or expanding it. Also, how did your town amend the city charter? (I'm just curious so as to be prepared if I see it being tried somewhere around me.)


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## TiBike

Who has lost an election because of a long distance train? Maybe someone who rail fans opposed lost an election, but is there the slightest bit of data that shows a causative link? Can you even point to a causative link between a local, a mass transportation/mass voter issue particularly involving a train that cost an elected official his/her job? The only one I can think of that even tangentially involved trains was Christy shutting down that bridge, and it was a mighty slim connection at that.

That's not going to change, at least not in regards long distance trains. Anderson is right to position a few as "experiential", and make them the rail equivalent of the Queen Mary 2 – a cruise ship that does a 21st century imitation of a passenger liner. The rest need to be reconfigured to move people – lots of people – to places they need to go every day. There's no secret about how to do that -- look at Europe, Britain, China or Japan.

Rail is too valuable to waste on amusement park service.



jis said:


> There is absolutely no guarantee about anything regarding passenger rail in the US until the establishment embraces the concept across the board. They have resisted mightily for half a century believing in its obsolescence. We will know things have changed when people start losing elections because they were seen as causing something bad to happen to someone’s train service. This happens in some regions, but not yet at a national level. So LD trains remain at risk for the time being.


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## tricia

TiBike said:


> Who has lost an election because of a long distance train? Maybe someone who rail fans opposed lost an election, but is there the slightest bit of data that shows a causative link? Can you even point to a causative link between a local, a mass transportation/mass voter issue particularly involving a train that cost an elected official his/her job? The only one I can think of that even tangentially involved trains was Christy shutting down that bridge, and it was a mighty slim connection at that.
> 
> That's not going to change, at least not in regards long distance trains. Anderson is right to position a few as "experiential", and make them the rail equivalent of the Queen Mary 2 – a cruise ship that does a 21st century imitation of a passenger liner. The rest need to be reconfigured to move people – lots of people – to places they need to go every day. There's no secret about how to do that -- look at Europe, Britain, China or Japan.
> 
> Rail is too valuable to waste on amusement park service.



To the contrary, I think rail is too valuable to waste by devoting it entirely to the service of short-term private profit. There are other public goods, and a national rail network ought to serve those as well.

For example: A national rail network that enables citizens to travel throughout their entire country, and along the way meet strangers in a context of mutual appreciation of the rich variety of places far from "places they need to go every day"--that builds a kind of "we're all in this together" solidarity that's both essential to democracy and in very short supply in our current culture.

Please don't denigrate that by calling it "amusement park service."


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## jis

TiBike said:


> Who has lost an election because of a long distance train? Maybe someone who rail fans opposed lost an election, but is there the slightest bit of data that shows a causative link? Can you even point to a causative link between a local, a mass transportation/mass voter issue particularly involving a train that cost an elected official his/her job? The only one I can think of that even tangentially involved trains was Christy shutting down that bridge, and it was a mighty slim connection at that.
> 
> That's not going to change, at least not in regards long distance trains. Anderson is right to position a few as "experiential", and make them the rail equivalent of the Queen Mary 2 – a cruise ship that does a 21st century imitation of a passenger liner. The rest need to be reconfigured to move people – lots of people – to places they need to go every day. There's no secret about how to do that -- look at Europe, Britain, China or Japan.
> 
> Rail is too valuable to waste on amusement park service.


Where trains form a really deeply integrated part of the economy, (US being a rather bad example of such, except at a few places) entire governments have fallen due to screwup of train service. In the US a complete cockup in the highway system could conceivably lead to such a calamity. That was the point I was making regarding what it means for the broad establishment to be on board about something.


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## Mystic River Dragon

tricia said:


> For example: A national rail network that enables citizens to travel throughout their entire country, and along the way meet strangers in a context of mutual appreciation of the rich variety of places far from "places they need to go every day"--that builds a kind of "we're all in this together" solidarity that's both essential to democracy and in very short supply in our current culture



Absolutely right, tricia. I sometimes wonder if this ability of trains to give people the chance to talk to others of different backgrounds in a civilized way is what the real target is. From flex dining (no more sitting with strangers) to an attempt to cut up the national network, a lot of the changes seem to be intended to keep us separated from others with different views and backgrounds just as much as they are intended to cut costs.

By the way, if I wanted "experiential," I would take Via across Canada if I wanted a northern route from east to west or a cruise through the Panama Canal if I wanted a southern route. More expensive than Amtrak, but a whole lot more quality for the money. So I don't know who Anderson thinks is going to take an Amtrak train for luxury when they could do one of those other options.


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## lordsigma

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Absolutely right, tricia. I sometimes wonder if this ability of trains to give people the chance to talk to others of different backgrounds in a civilized way is what the real target is. From flex dining (no more sitting with strangers) to an attempt to cut up the national network, a lot of the changes seem to be intended to keep us separated from others with different views and backgrounds just as much as they are intended to cut costs.
> 
> By the way, if I wanted "experiential," I would take Via across Canada if I wanted a northern route from east to west or a cruise through the Panama Canal if I wanted a southern route. More expensive than Amtrak, but a whole lot more quality for the money. So I don't know who Anderson thinks is going to take an Amtrak train for luxury when they could do one of those other options.


I think the idea is, from reading the five year plan, to have a traditional dining service that's more akin to what Via provides (something better than what it is now) on a couple select trains rather than offering the current traditional dining product on a lot of trains. They would invest on making the accommodations and food service on these select trains more of a luxury/premium type service. Not saying that's what I would do, but I think that's where they are moving.


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## crescent-zephyr

Mystic River Dragon said:


> By the way, if I wanted "experiential," I would take Via across Canada



I actually think the Coast Starlight in the Parlor Car days was the best option for the money. The Parlor Cars were more plush than the VIA Domes, just as historic and almost as good of a view (I know nothing truly compares to a short dome). VIA never offered a true wine and cheese tasting or "private" dining like the Parlor Car did.


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## lordsigma

If Anderson got his way 100% the only trains that would likely remain undisturbed would be the three mentioned earlier plus the auto train. It would probably still be possible to get to many other places - I’m sure you’d still be able to somehow get from Chicago to NYP and WAS somehow and NYP to MIA somehow. But it may be some type of broken up system requiring transfers in some cases. And you may still have a couple overnighters as part of the new corridor arrangement somewhere they feel it’s appropriate but it would undoubtedly look different. One change I’d almost bet money on is the replacement of the crescent with a NYP - ATL daily train and ATL - NOL with something less than daily.


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## crescent-zephyr

TiBike said:


> Rail is too valuable to waste on amusement park service.



Which trains do you think are an amusement service? Why do you think that?


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> If Anderson got his way 100% the only trains that would likely remain undisturbed would be the three mentioned earlier plus the auto train. It would probably still be possible to get to many other places - I’m sure you’d still be able to somehow get from Chicago to NYP and WAS somehow and NYP to MIA somehow. But it may be some type of broken up system requiring transfers in some cases. And you may still have a couple overnighters as part of the new corridor arrangement somewhere they feel it’s appropriate but it would undoubtedly look different. One change I’d almost bet money on is the replacement of the crescent with a NYP - ATL daily train and ATL - NOL with something less than daily.


Plus riding on Buses on the broken up Routes!( see the moronic Southwest Chief Plan the Flyboys tried to get off the Ground)


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## Seaboard92

VIA does offer a welcome reception in each activity car on board the Canadian after major stations. At that time wine, and other things are available free of charge. For sure they do it out of Toronto, Jasper, and Vancouver. I think they do it out of Winnipeg too. They also have other activities like craft brew tastings of wine. Tastings.


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## Anderson

I think the _Builder_, the _Zephyr_, and the _Starlight_ all have the best scenery in the system (alongside the _Cardinal_ and _Adirondack_, at least to my eyes, though I've always also had a soft spot)) for the _Chief_ as well). I think they attract more tourist traffic than some of the other routes (particularly international tourist traffic) and I've said before that I think there's a case for Amtrak to put together a Prestige Class-esque batch of equipment (perhaps 2-4 sets) that it _does_ run less-than-daily for those routes.

My guess is that the "investment routes" would be the three named trains plus the _Auto Train_ (which I suspect is going to be strategically bifurcated between Coach and Sleeper) on the basis of its operating performance. One or two others could work their way in as well (the _Lake Shore Limited_ is a solid candidate, as is the _Capitol Limited_; the only real issue with the _Lake Shore Limited_ is a lack of connectivity on the eastern end when heading east, while the _Meteor_ and _Crescent_ have also generally been strong performers).


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## crescent-zephyr

Seaboard92 said:


> VIA does offer a welcome reception in each activity car on board the Canadian after major stations. At that time wine, and other things are available free of charge. For sure they do it out of Toronto, Jasper, and Vancouver. I think they do it out of Winnipeg too. They also have other activities like craft brew tastings of wine. Tastings.



The reception was nice, but not on the level of the classic wine and cheese tastings on the starlight, it was just small glasses of champagne and some small appetizers. They did that again departing Jasper when I rode.


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## Anderson

Seaboard92 said:


> VIA does offer a welcome reception in each activity car on board the Canadian after major stations. At that time wine, and other things are available free of charge. For sure they do it out of Toronto, Jasper, and Vancouver. I think they do it out of Winnipeg too. They also have other activities like craft brew tastings of wine. Tastings.


I've never run into it out of Winnipeg, but it is definitely possible that they do so during the summer (when loads are high enough that they could be loading a few cars' worth of people).


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## jis

When I rode the Canadian last they did do a wine and cheese reception out of Winnipeg.


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## Bob Dylan

I've not seen one out of Winnipeg, but Toronto and Vancouver are every Train and Jasper occasionally " In Season ",in my expierences on the Canadian.


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## jis

I have ridden the Canadian four times, and each time the wine/Champagne thing was done differently at different place (for the en route one) varying between Jasper, Winnipeg and Edmonton. That was in the old three day schedule days. I have never been on it on any one of its latter day extended schedules with half day delays.

BTW, in that schedule Winnipeg was in the afternoon and one could visit that neat Museum in the station during the somewhat extended stop.


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## JRR

Anderson said:


> I've never run into it out of Winnipeg, but it is definitely possible that they do so during the summer (when loads are high enough that they could be loading a few cars' worth of people).



It was late at night when we stopped at Winnipeg (traveling East) so no refreshments were offered as far as I know( I was asleep).


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## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: please be reminded that this topic pertains to the new dining options (flex dining) on Amtrak. Thanks for returning to and staying on topic.


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## crescent-zephyr

To those who have ridden, do the SCA’s usually offer to bring you the food? Or are they simply taking your order and telling you to get the food unless you request it? 

Has anyone had an SCA who didn’t take the order even? Just wondering how disfferent crews are handling it.


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## TiBike

Sure, where anything is a deeply integrated part of the economy and it crashes, there are political repercussions. Prime example is the California power cuts that led to the recall of governor Gray Davis. A major, extended disruption to transportation infrastructure that's vital to the economy would produce the same result, particularly in California. Amtrak's long distance service doesn't even come close to being significant, let alone vital, to the economy, though.



jis said:


> Where trains form a really deeply integrated part of the economy, (US being a rather bad example of such, except at a few places) entire governments have fallen due to screwup of train service. In the US a complete cockup in the highway system could conceivably lead to such a calamity. That was the point I was making regarding what it means for the broad establishment to be on board about something.


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## crescent-zephyr

TiBike said:


> Amtrak's long distance service doesn't even come close to being significant, let alone vital, to the economy, though.



How many people does Amtrak move in and out of New Orleans daily? What’s the magic number that makes a transit system significant?


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## TiBike

Any train that doesn't reliably provide on time service, on a schedule that maximises its utility to passengers at substantially all the stops along its route, is an amusement park ride. It offers value as entertainment, not transportation. That describes most Amtrak long distance trains. I could see an argument for considering the Empire Builder and Palmetto as extended corridor service, and the LSL and Capitol Limited as overnight transportation between major cities, but only an argument and I wouldn't make it. Otherwise, everything else is entertainment.

This thread is the best proof. There's more outage and sorrow over the loss of cooked to order steaks, than over abysmal on time performance and interminable travel times.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Which trains do you think are an amusement service? Why do you think that?


----------



## TiBike

crescent-zephyr said:


> How many people does Amtrak move in and out of New Orleans daily? What’s the magic number that makes a transit system significant?



Fewer people than a single Caltrain between San Jose and San Francisco during commute hours.

The Surfliner and Capitol Corridor move millions of passengers a year, Caltrain and Metrolink move tens of millions, BART moves hundreds of millions. The vast majority of those passengers arrive on time, and on their own schedule. BART is certainly significant – it's a political, social and economic nightmare when there's a strike.

That compares to Amtrak moving hundreds of thousands in and out of New Orleans, an hour late on the average. You can't assume a given train will run, either. And no one has lost their job as a result. Because the service is not significant to the New Orleans economy.


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## crescent-zephyr

TiBike said:


> This thread is the best proof. There's more outage and sorrow over the loss of cooked to order steaks, than over abysmal on time performance and interminable travel times.



You do realize this is a thread about dining car changes? 

So if a transit service is late, it is now an amusement service? Lots of airlines offering amusement services these days as well! (Has American ever been on time? Ha! That’s a joke based on my personal experiences only).


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## Qapla

A good portion of the on time performance could easily be corrected if the freight companies stuck to the terms of giving passenger the right-of-way and quit delaying them - but, instead of placing the blame where it belongs, on the freight trains, it is easier (and more politically expedient) to blame Amtrak.

However, being on time would not fix the dismal food service that is being offered for premium prices. If sleeper prices were lowered to reflect the food service and/or prices of the food for coach were lowered it would have an impact on how many people would recommend trains to their friends ... word of mouth does wonders for attracting customers - or driving them away.


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## Palmland

TiBike said:


> Any train that doesn't reliably provide on time service, on a schedule that maximises its utility to passengers at substantially all the stops along its route, is an amusement park ride......



Is it wrong to enjoy your transportation? Amtrak LD trains do get you from A to B, slowly. There may not be an economic justification for all Amtrak routes but there could well be a social one. If so, is there a public need for the government to fund any deficits? That justification could include: those otherwise unable to travel because of health, lack of accessible public transportation in rural areas, environmental concerns with other modes, or limited ability to continue adding lanes to our congested highways.

Justification may also be based on the value of experiencing our magnificent country as no other transportation mode can. We do fund National Parks/Monuments because it is for the benefit of all of us and could not be economically justified otherwise. I suspect that is what Anderson is getting at when he talks about the value of an experiential service. I, for one, think that is a valid reason. So did many travelers, both U.S. and foreign, on our recent trips.


----------



## lordsigma

TiBike said:


> Any train that doesn't reliably provide on time service, on a schedule that maximises its utility to passengers at substantially all the stops along its route, is an amusement park ride. It offers value as entertainment, not transportation. That describes most Amtrak long distance trains. I could see an argument for considering the Empire Builder and Palmetto as extended corridor service, and the LSL and Capitol Limited as overnight transportation between major cities, but only an argument and I wouldn't make it. Otherwise, everything else is entertainment.
> 
> This thread is the best proof. There's more outage and sorrow over the loss of cooked to order steaks, than over abysmal on time performance and interminable travel times.



I wouldn’t say that. Are there entertainment riders on certain trains particular the cross countries and does that provide some of the value? Sure. But you’re forgetting that for a lot of people that don’t like to fly (like myself) trains have a lot of utility if you don’t want to have to drive and in some cases (not always) an overnight coach ticket for those willing to endure it can be more affordable than flying. When one prefers flying to trains it’s probably easy to dismiss them, but there are a significant amount of Amtrak riders that don’t like flying (and some that can’t for various reasons.) One long distance train where that entertainment analogy couldn’t be further from the truth is the auto train. It is a unique service but it has a lot of utility and people use it for transportation not entertainment. It isn’t just the long distance trains one could view as “insignificant.” All of the state supported corridors except maybe the surf liners and cascades (and even there it’d be iffy)...if you killed them it really wouldn’t have that much of an affect. You probably wouldn’t criticize the Vermonter because it’s not in the long distance line but it carries 90,000 people per year along a non crowded highway corridor - big whoop. I’m a supporter of the Vermonter it’s a great train but I’m not of any illusions that it’s a vital part of Vermont’s economy. You really could say that every Amtrak train in our air/road dominant society is insignificant as for as its economic impact. The NEC is the only area where you might see an affect on air/road congestion were you to cut it but even there the vast majority of that is the commuter railroads not Amtrak. Where I’m sure I agree with you is that Amtrak could be more significant in certain corridors and I support that growth - but I don’t think you have to cut all the long distance routes to get more corridors. There may be some network changes that make sense and we’ll see what happens with reauthorization but I don’t think you just cut all of them. With the amount we spend on military spending and lots of other crap at the federal level, the couple billion for the national network fails to offend me.


----------



## pennyk

Reminder (again) - this topic of this thread is dining changes. 

Thanks.


----------



## TiBike

crescent-zephyr said:


> You do realize this is a thread about dining car changes?



Yes, and to get back on track, I was replying to what I interpreted (rightly or wrongly) as an inference that rail fans can generate a political tsunami of sufficient power to restore Amtrak dining cars to their glory days. As mentioned above, national parks are a good comparison. 318 million park visits in FY 2018, versus 4.5 million Amtrak long distance passengers – two orders of magnitude greater. That's enough to make a political wave or two. How far would, say, the Sierra Club get if it started lobbying for steak dinners for all overnight guests?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I could imagine there are food services in some national parks that operate at a loss. Actually would be an interesting thing to look into.


----------



## keelhauled

I haven't visited too many national parks, but I seem to remember signage indicating the food service was contracted out to a private third party.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

keelhauled said:


> I haven't visited too many national parks, but I seem to remember signage indicating the food service was contracted out to a private third party.



Xanterra (which is actually the former Harvey house company) operates the food and lodging at Grand Canyon national park. 

That doesn’t mean that the food operations are profitable.


----------



## Meat Puppet

How big of a flat top skillet can I fit in my roomette without tripping breakers? I would like to use industrial but 220 is hard to find on the train, so I guess I'm limited to 110.


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## lordsigma

pennyk said:


> Reminder (again) - this topic of this thread is dining changes.
> 
> Thanks.


My apologies for going off on a tangent.


----------



## Barb Stout

TiBike said:


> Any train that doesn't reliably provide on time service, on a schedule that maximises its utility to passengers at substantially all the stops along its route, is an amusement park ride. It offers value as entertainment, not transportation. That describes most Amtrak long distance trains. I could see an argument for considering the Empire Builder and Palmetto as extended corridor service, and the LSL and Capitol Limited as overnight transportation between major cities, but only an argument and I wouldn't make it. Otherwise, everything else is entertainment.
> 
> This thread is the best proof. There's more outage and sorrow over the loss of cooked to order steaks, than over abysmal on time performance and interminable travel times.


In what way could the Empire Builder be construed as a corridor service, extended or otherwise?


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## Barb Stout

crescent-zephyr said:


> I could imagine there are food services in some national parks that operate at a loss. Actually would be an interesting thing to look into.


I have been to quite a few National Parks/Monuments and at all of them food service was contracted out. Other services are contracted out also like the Park Service bus shuttle at Glacier National Park. I remember being "stuck" at the highest point along the shuttle drive where it was extremely windy and cold (yes, in August) waiting for a westbound shuttle for several hours and watched while twelve eastbound shuttles went by. Bad contractor, bad!


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## TiBike

crescent-zephyr said:


> I could imagine there are food services in some national parks that operate at a loss. Actually would be an interesting thing to look into.



At a loss to the concessionaires, perhaps. But the ones that can't make a go of it get out of the business and are replaced by ones that can.

In a system as big and diverse as the National Parks, I'm sure there are exceptions and special cases, but on an aggregate basis visitor food service profits the Park Service.



Barb Stout said:


> In what way could the Empire Builder be construed as a corridor service, extended or otherwise?



I'm trying to stay on topic here, but go back a few years and read some of the posts about the EB. During the oil boom, workers were, according to the posts, effectively commuting on it (week on/week off, or whatever, schedules), and there was said to be an exceptional amount of local intermediate travel._ If _– and it's a big _if_ – that were true, I can see the argument.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TiBike said:


> At a loss to the concessionaires, perhaps. But the ones that can't make a go of it get out of the business and are replaced by ones that can.
> 
> In a system as big and diverse as the National Parks, I'm sure there are exceptions and special cases, but on an aggregate basis visitor food service profits the Park Service.



No, that’s not necessarily how it works. I don’t know how it works, but it could be many different arrangements. One possibility is a company like xanterra is awarded the Grand Canyon contract with the terms that they operate the hotels and the multiple restaurants in the park. Some restaurants may operate at a loss or barely break even, but the entire contract is profitable because of the hotel and gift shops. 

And unless you have a source for your final statement I’m going to assume it’s your opinion. You may be right, but you also might be wrong. Many people would assume park entrance fees cover the cost of the parks


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## TiBike

"In addition to Recreation Fees, parks also collect revenue from concessions contracts through which the
NPS provides enhanced visitor services like lodging, food, tours, and guided recreation opportunities.
These revenues are used to fund management, improvement, enhancement, operation, construction, and
maintenance of commercial visitor services and facilities, as well as high-priority resource management
programs and concession activities".

https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/upload/FY2019-NPS-Budget-Justification.pdf


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## Palmland

Sorry for continuing to stray from the topic (should there be one on funding or 2020 re-authorization?) but I didn't want anyone to think that the NPS was funded soley by park fees and income from contracts with concessionaires. The NPS would not survive without government funding. A quote from the 2019 NPS funding proposal: 

"The discretionary budget request for the NPS is $2.4 billion, which supports an estimated 17,685 FTE. With recreation fee revenue and other mandatory funding sources, total 2019 funding for NPS is $3.2 billion."

Many parallels with Amtrak funding, including for food service. So the concessionaire, Xanterra or someone else, certainly makes a buck on their contract with NPS but that doesn't help the NPS, other than to keep visitors happy. But, the NPS is saying the concessionaire can do it more efficiently (lower net cost) than if the NPS tried to manage it themselves. I do know on our recent Grand Canyon visit Xanterra did a good job with the food we bought (but not inexpensive) and an outstanding one on their operation of the Grand Canyon RR train. But, with lower volumes, I suspect we would all get sticker shock if a Xanterra took on LD OBS.

This is a link to the full report:
https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/uploads/fy2019_nps_budget_justification.pdf


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## pennyk

Again, please try to stay on topic. If you wish to discuss a different topic, please start a new thread.

Thank you.


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## Anderson

crescent-zephyr said:


> No, that’s not necessarily how it works. I don’t know how it works, but it could be many different arrangements. One possibility is a company like xanterra is awarded the Grand Canyon contract with the terms that they operate the hotels and the multiple restaurants in the park. Some restaurants may operate at a loss or barely break even, but the entire contract is profitable because of the hotel and gift shops.
> 
> And unless you have a source for your final statement I’m going to assume it’s your opinion. You may be right, but you also might be wrong. Many people would assume park entrance fees cover the cost of the parks


The best example of something like this is probably overnight room service at a hotel: The odds are pretty good that even at the nosebleed prices charged, it doesn't "make a profit", especially if you burden out the expense of running it...but if you are a "proper" full-service hotel at the higher end of the market it might be seen as "part of the deal". Likewise, I suspect that food service at many hotels is only "paid for" because breakfast is "included", since for many hotels, having a bar/light restaurant is a business necessity (e.g. so someone who comes in on a reasonably late flight can at least grab _something_ before going to sleep).


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## ehbowen

Anderson said:


> The best example of something like this is probably overnight room service at a hotel: The odds are pretty good that even at the nosebleed prices charged, it doesn't "make a profit", especially if you burden out the expense of running it...but if you are a "proper" full-service hotel at the higher end of the market it might be seen as "part of the deal". Likewise, I suspect that food service at many hotels is only "paid for" because breakfast is "included", since for many hotels, having a bar/light restaurant is a business necessity (e.g. so someone who comes in on a reasonably late flight can at least grab _something_ before going to sleep).



As an employee at a high-end hotel, I can attest to this. Breakfast may break even (I don't have access to the P&Ls), but dinner? Unless there's a major event, seldom. We cut the losses as much as possible by moving dinner into the bar when occupancy is low and only scheduling servers "as needed", but the kitchen is open and ready to prepare a full menu until 11 p.m., 365 days a year...and you can get a burger or appetizer all the way to 1 a.m. It just goes with the territory when you offer service at this level. If only Amtrak felt the same way.


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## ehbowen

Allow me to double-post (please...but I have no objection if the mod team combines this as an "edit to add"): I work at a thousand-room plus convention hotel. We're expected to provide certain amenities. What about the small boys, say with only a couple of dozen rooms? I submit for your consideration the Izaak Walton Inn in Essex, Montana. It's one of a very few places between Whitefish and Browning where you can purchase a sit-down meal between October and April. That's one of the reasons why BNSF still uses the former Great Northern hotel for snow crews in the winter...and I'm sure that when there's snow in Marias Pass and the crews are rocking and rolling that their restaurant does quite well. But I stopped in there with my father during the off-season for a quick visit, and I suggested to the manager that we might stay for dinner "if we can get a reservation". (The dining room was completely empty.) He said, deadpan, "I think we can arrange that," and the two of us had a very nice dinner. Yes, we paid more than we would have at Denny's or similar, and if you walk in and buy a steak at my hotel you'll probably pay more than you would at Outback, but in neither case would you feel "ripped off" unless you're an absolute penny-pinching curmudgeon (I apologize for bringing Mica into this...).

So, think about it. Did we pay our "fair share" of the chef, the waiter, the manager, the space, the utilities, upkeep on the kitchen equipment, plus the raw food when we walked into the Izaak Walton for a brief afternoon visit? No chance. Will you pay your "fair share" at my hotel if you walk in for a midnight burger following a Rockets game which runs into triple overtime? Not likely. If you're staying in either establishment you're paying through the (admittedly, high in both cases) room rates you pay, but what about those who walk in off the street? Do we or IWI turn away walk-in business because the customer is not paying the built-in subsidy? Not a chance! We _love_ walk-in customers, and bend over backwards to make them feel welcome! Because, even though we may "lose money" on them in the eyes of some accounting standards, the costs are already baked in to our bottom lines and we simply can't cut them further without completely dropping out of the tier of the standard of service which our "profitable" customers expect. The added revenue which they do provide is a net positive to our profit and loss in both cases. We say, "Thank you for coming and please do come and see us again soon"...and we mean it. (Incidentally, do you want to take Mom out on Mother's Day without advance reservations and without a two-hour wait? Look for a full-service hotel in your vicinity. You're likely to be welcomed with open arms and with no wait to speak of at all.)

If I have to spell it out, this is _exactly_ analogous to the role of the Amtrak coach passenger who might want to eat in a full service diner. Yes, you can charge more than he might expect to pay at Applebee's or IHOP; it would be unreasonable to demand otherwise. But the fixed cost of providing full service dining is (or should be) a given with any overnight train (and, I would argue, a long-distance daytime train covering two or three meal periods such as the old _International_ between Chicago and Toronto). The private railroads, at least when they were being competently managed, understood this and baked a portion of the fixed cost into their ticket prices and then set the marginal cost of the meal itself at a level which optimized use of the fixed resources. You don't want the prices set so low that the staff and food storage capacity is overwhelmed; neither do you want it so high that only those who are splurging on "the trip of a lifetime" are interested. But I fear that "competence" and "management" are oxymoronic in the current Amtrak climate....


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## crescent-zephyr

That was my thinking as well. High end hotels provide a restaurant because they are expected to do so and it’s built in to the rate. I think the Amtrak sleeping car service is priced at a point that customers should expect a higher quality dining experience than what contemporary dining provides. 

There is also a point to be made about downgrading an existing service so quickly. The dining cars on these trains have never been downgraded like this in Amtrak’s history. That has the potential to upset loyal long term passengers. (And shockingly that includes non-railfans!)


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## ehbowen

crescent-zephyr said:


> There is also a point to be made about downgrading an existing service so quickly. The dining cars on these trains have never been downgraded like this in Amtrak’s history. That has the potential to upset loyal long term passengers. (And shockingly that includes non-railfans!)



Weeeell...I'm old enough to remember the Stockman cuts. The kitchens in the Superliner diners were designed based upon operational experience with the ATSF Hi-Levels plus Pullman's century-plus of institutional memory. They were intended to be operated with a full crew as in the classic days. Scarcely was the paint dry, though, when Amtrak was ordered to cut food service losses (sound familiar?) "Tray meals" and other abominations were the order of the day. Fortunately, after a couple of years Graham Claytor took over and most of the cuts were restored. (Competence, management, and Claytor is NOT oxymoronic...)


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## crescent-zephyr

Simplified dining wasn’t a good era either. The Bob Evans breakfast scramble was at least better than the breakfast sandwich we have now.


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## Mystic River Dragon

crescent-zephyr said:


> There is also a point to be made about downgrading an existing service so quickly. That has the potential to upset loyal long term passengers. (And shockingly that includes non-railfans!)



I ran into a lady waiting to board the sleeper on Silver Meteor 97 at TRE (sometimes I watch it come in when I have a few minutes between my two commuter trains there). She asked me if that was the track for 97 (so she obviously wasn't a dedicated railfan if she didn't already know that) and I said yes. The very next thing she said was that she had booked her ticket before the dining car changes, that she had looked at the changes and they looked terrible, that the dining car experience is one of the main reasons she takes the train, and that even though she hates flying she will fly to Florida in future instead of taking the train without the dining car.


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## Manny T

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the Amtrak sleeping car service is priced at a point that customers should expect a higher quality dining experience than what contemporary dining provides.



I really do think that says it all.


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## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the Amtrak sleeping car service is priced at a point that customers should expect a higher quality dining experience than what contemporary dining provides.





Manny T said:


> I really do think that says it all.


Agreed. You honestly can't get more concise and succinct than that.


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## CAQuail

Just as price comparison, on my last trips on the Lake Shore and Capitol (before the downgrades) on a per night basis I was paying about the same for a roomette as I paid for my last transatlantic crossing on the Queen Mary 2. And that includes the 80% single supplement that Cunard charges. So I have to second Crescent-Zephyr's comment that at the prices Amtrak charges for sleeping car space I expect more then what they are offering.


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## MikefromCrete

You're right, people paying thousands of dollars do deserve a better experience. Write to your congressman and tell them to change Mica's stupid "Amtrak food operations must make a profit" law. I believe Congress will be rewriting Amtrak's authorization soon. This will be more effective than whining to Amtrak's current management which seems fixated on the dining service costs.


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## nferr

Yup. Everybody's overlooking the Mica mandate. Food operations on their own have to break even. So all this provide service at a loss, provide food at a first class level etc., is just talk. It's very possible Amtrak may lose more in revenue overall than the dining cuts save, but that is irrelevant to the law. It must be changed. Until then you can blast Amtrak forever, but they're following the mandate given.


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## crescent-zephyr

Does the first class food served on Acelas break even?


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## Anderson

crescent-zephyr said:


> Does the first class food served on Acelas break even?


It depends on how you calculate the transfers and costs. Consider that the "Accommodation Charge" for First is about $154 WAS-NYP. Even if you sock the meals in question with an average $50-60 charge _and_ presume two drinks plus labor, you can probably charge $100 for the food and service and have $54 left over for "profit". But you could easily handle the transfers differently and get a different figure, especially depending on how you account for AGR upgrade coupons.

Of course, the truth is that the peak-hour trains almost assuredly "make money" with First on this front while off-hour trains are likely a stickier proposition (e.g. the 2100-ish departure from NYP or the 0500 from WAS) and a few may be chronic marginal "losers" that are absorbed as part of the overall service.

Now, as to sleeper passengers...the answer to this is (and always has been) buried in the accounting. It would really not be too insane for Amtrak to rejigger the accommodation charges (while not actually changing the fares) to fix this mess. For example, if Amtrak turned around and took the difference between the Star's current fares and the Meteor's current fares and applied them to the old diner? I suspect that would be a case of "Wham, bam, thank you ma'am" and the F&B loss would have mostly vanished (I think you could legitimately have hacked off $3-5m that way based on the sleeper ridership of the Meteor across the 40k or so sleeper pax as of 2017, accounting for existing transfers*).

By the same token, it wouldn't have been out of sorts for Amtrak to "fix" the Auto Train's F&B losses by simply charging an across-the-board "accommodation fee".


*As of FY17 (the last year I have properly complete data, though I'll try to integrate RPA's data as well) you had about a $90 difference in sleeper prices between the two trains. On the basis of the current changes, I expect that to open up to about $150-180. If the delta between the two rates is at the higher end (so $90), that would provide $3.6-3.7m/yr in "new" revenue. At the same time I think you would probably "get away" with rejiggering a bit more revenue per passenger into the diners flat-out with this (e.g. pax riding RVR-CHS would now actually have a diner charge assessed).


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## cocojacoby

nferr said:


> Yup. Everybody's overlooking the Mica mandate. Food operations on their own have to break even. So all this provide service at a loss, provide food at a first class level etc., is just talk. It's very possible Amtrak may lose more in revenue overall than the dining cuts save, but that is irrelevant to the law. It must be changed. Until then you can blast Amtrak forever, but they're following the mandate given.



Yeah but there may be other ways to do that. For instance the 24 hour diner experiment that supposedly operated at a profit on the Sunset. Just think of how well that concept would work on the Lake Shore Limited.


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## JCTakoma

On the overnight trains I always find myself thinking about what Amtrak (or private rail service) might do to make service better, and my thoughts often run to cruise-line level service options. But since I’ve just had two trips (Crescent 19, 20) under the new flex meal service, here’s a comparison of just that one change, between what Amtrak offered last year to what it’s offering this year, as fact-based and opinion-free as I can make it, though I do offer a personal opinion at the end:

1. Service

BEFORE: 4 Staff, open to sleepers by reservation, open space-available to coaches, host seating at shared tables, menu orders, three-course service at table, sturdy but disposable plastic dinnerware and cups. Room service option through sleeping car attendant. Turnover typically 1 hour.

AFTER: 1 Staff, open to sleepers by reservation, closed to coaches, open seating generally without table sharing, menu orders, counter service on trays, sturdy but disposable plastic dinnerware and cups. Room service option through sleeping car attendant. Turnover typically 30 minutes.

2. Food Quality

BEFORE: Low-end diner.

AFTER: International airline coach.

3. Kitchen Capability

BEFORE: Short-order, warming oven, microwave, and cold entrees. Limited bar.

AFTER: Warming oven, microwave, and cold entrees. Limited bar.

4. Setting/Ambiance, All Meals

BEFORE: Tables set for each use with stacked/clean butcher paper, plastic flatware setups, plastic cups, condiments. Cardboard trash cans near entrance occupying wheelchair space. One table occupied by manager for bookkeeping.

AFTER: Clear tables, not always cleaned between use. Cardboard trash cans near entrance occupying wheelchair space. One table occupied by self-serve plastic flatware setups, condiments. Breakfast only, additional table occupied by self-serve food items (muffins, breakfast bars, cereals, etc). One table occupied by manager for bookkeeping.

5. Cost in Dining Car

BEFORE: Meals and soft drinks included in fare for sleepers, à la carte pricing for coaches. Limited cocktails, beer, wine at à la carte pricing for all passengers.

AFTER: Meals and soft drinks, plus one alcoholic drink per passenger per voyage, included in fare for sleepers, not available for coaches. Additional limited cocktails, beer, wine at à la carte pricing for sleepers, not available for coaches.

6. Lounge Cafe/Bar/Snack Service

BEFORE: Separate car for all passengers, some lines equipped with upper-level lounge and lower-level cafe. Service all day, access 24 hours.

AFTER: As above. Additionally, sleepers may access dining car for cafe/bar service all day, lounge 24 hours.

OPINION: Our family generally valued the service and ambiance — the experience — of the previous dining service on overnight sleeper travel. The food was ok then, maybe marginally better now, though within the family we debate this. But at the end of the day, the change in food quality doesn’t matter to us nearly as much as the change in service. Even there, it’s a mixed bag. Being able to hang out in the dining car with a drink is kind of nice, but we do miss the old service quite a bit. For travelers like us, we may switch back to first-class air rather than take the Crescent in the future for our periodic visits to family at holidays.


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## Amtrakfflyer

If they actually retrofitted half the sleeper lounges with an actual lounge area I think a lot of the uproar would go away. Make it similar to the Parlour car. It doesn’t solve the coach dining situation but would help mitigate the sub par food quality currently being offered to sleeper passengers.
Won’t happen under Anderson he’s already been caught fibbing about V2 diner kitchen refits for quite some time now, over a year.


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## crescent-zephyr

Amtrakfflyer said:


> If they actually retrofitted half the sleeper lounges with an actual lounge area I think a lot of the uproar would go away. Make it similar to the Parlour car. It doesn’t solve the coach dining situation but would help mitigate the sub par food quality currently being offered to sleeper passengers.
> Won’t happen under Anderson he’s already been caught fibbing about V2 diner kitchen refits for quite some time now, over a year.



I think the V2 diners make an attractive lounge. Since most sleeping car passengers coming to the lounge would like a table for either board games, books, laptops, or food... keeping the tables seems like the best move.

There would be ways to make the current system better, but you would have to find employees who care. The report from the cardinal in this thread shows that there are ways to make the experience nicer, if the employees have the desire.


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## Rail Freak

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the V2 diners make an attractive lounge. Since most sleeping car passengers coming to the lounge would like a table for either board games, books, laptops, or food... keeping the tables seems like the best move.
> 
> There would be ways to make the current system better, but you would have to find employees who care. The report from the cardinal in this thread shows that there are ways to make the experience nicer, if the employees have the desire.


Do the new cars have electric access at every table


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## pennyk

Rail Freak said:


> Do the new cars have electric access at every table


Every table at which I have sat has outlets (and I have made use of them while hanging out in the sleeper lounge on the Meteor)


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## Ryan

cocojacoby said:


> For instance the 24 hour diner experiment that supposedly operated at a profit on the Sunset.



Emphasis on the "supposedly". I've not seen a trustworthy source with access to actual data make that claim.


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## crescent-zephyr

Ryan said:


> Emphasis on the "supposedly". I've not seen a trustworthy source with access to actual data make that claim.



Agreed. I’m guessing someone read “the experiment proved financially successful” or something along those lines and twisted that to mean “profitable.” 

No Amtrak food service cars run at a profit do they?


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## tommylicious

Wow....61 pages. And I recall getting temporarily suspended from this site last year for complaining about the food changes and their impact. I'm sorry to see my concerns were well founded. The only solution at this point is to pack the Amtrak board with more sympathetic members and get a new CEO.


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## Katibeth

I plan to take the Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, and Cardinal (on the return) next September. For those who have traveled those trains since the October 1, 2019 change, do the Sleeper Car Attendants try to coax you into taking your meals in the dining facities, or do they mind bringing the meals to you in your room? For this particular trip, I'd like to take my meals in my room. Your thoughts would be appreciated.


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## pennyk

Katibeth said:


> I plan to take the Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, and Cardinal (on the return) next September. For those who have traveled those trains since the October 1, 2019 change, do the Sleeper Car Attendants try to coax you into taking your meals in the dining facities, or do they mind bringing the meals to you in your room? For this particular trip, I'd like to take my meals in my room. Your thoughts would be appreciated.


I have traveled on the Silver Meteor 4 times since October 1st and twice on the Capitol Limited since October 1st. In my experience, the Sleeping Car Attendants did not coax the passengers either way. I always ate in the sleeper lounge which I found very comfortable. The SCAs seemed to be quite busy taking orders, delivering the orders to the LSA and then delivering some of the meals to passengers in their rooms. I assume that the passengers who had their meals delivered tipped their SCA accordingly.
Since your trip is not until next September, the protocol may be different than it is now.


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## Anderson

crescent-zephyr said:


> Agreed. I’m guessing someone read “the experiment proved financially successful” or something along those lines and twisted that to mean “profitable.”
> 
> No Amtrak food service cars run at a profit do they?


So, this is complicated:
-I'm informed that the cafe on the Lynchburger was, a few years ago, producing a substantial profit even by Amtrak's accounting (due to heavy F&B sales and VA leaning on Amtrak to optimize food orders).
-On the Regionals overall, Amtrak shows a small "profit" on F&B (which is complicated by this covering everything from slam-full peak-hour trains to stupid-o'clock trains on Saturday night).
-If you look at railroad F&B losses from the 1950s, the "eastern" railroads tended to have cost recovery figures that were anywhere from 10-20% better than the "western" railroads. So my guess is that some of the packed NYC-Washington/Boston trains were also showing F&B profits (and many were showing smaller losses) due to a mix of heavy traffic and scaled commissary operations. I wouldn't be surprised if the same applied to, say, the _San Diegans_ (which were a small part of ATSF's overall operation).
--I might expect similar notes on reduced losses to in-season Florida services (when the trains were running 18 cars long and where you had a single overnight trip) but that's a big "if", and it would have been a seasonal exception rather than an all-year thing (out-of-season the trains weren't nearly as long).

My guess, FWIW, is that the _experiment_ was profitable...which is to say that the overall attributed loss on the operation under 24-hour service was less than it had been under normal operations.


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## neroden

As with anything else in the rail business, dining profits are all about scale. That is why 24 hour operation is more profitable than "we fill half the car for a couple of hours and then take a multi hour break before the next mealtime".

There were real problems with the way dining cars were being operated two years ago; it was inefficient, led to coach customers not getting meals when they wanted meals, and failed to make maximum use of the dining car.

Literally none of this was addressed by the dumb cuts. In fact, there is now lower usage and less scale. Every underlying lack of scale problem was made worse. I guarantee that Amtrak is losing more money on "contemporary dining" than they were before on full service dining, especially when you include massive lost ticket sales.

It is possible to run profitable dining cars; every "dinner train" in the country proves it. It requires VOLUME. Amtrak has made no efforts to achieve volume.

I should add that some trains just do not have the ridership to generate the volume of dining demand for a profitable diner... The Texas Eagle is an example. But the Silvers and LSL have more than enough ridership, as does the EB most months. If a dining car was operated to serve the maximum number of customers (which it has not been in my experience), it could likely be profitable on those services.


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## Anderson

neroden said:


> It is possible to run profitable dining cars; every "dinner train" in the country proves it. It requires VOLUME. Amtrak has made no efforts to achieve volume.
> 
> I should add that some trains just do not have the ridership to generate the volume of dining demand for a profitable diner... The Texas Eagle is an example. But the Silvers and LSL have more than enough ridership, as does the EB most months. If a dining car was operated to serve the maximum number of customers (which it has not been in my experience), it could likely be profitable on those services.


(1) "Dinner trains" don't have to carry a full crew all the way from end to end or deal with multiple commissaries.
(2) I doubt the diners could be profitable at full capacity (at mealtimes; you probably won't fill the diner at 1530 no matter what you're trying), at least as-is. If you were also spreading commissary expenses over an order of magnitude more trains that would be one thing, but if the diners weren't printing money in the 1950s and 1960s on 18-car trains I can't see them making money with the current equipment mix.


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## Barb Stout

Anderson said:


> (1) "Dinner trains" don't have to carry a full crew all the way from end to end or deal with multiple commissaries.
> (2) I doubt the diners could be profitable at full capacity (at mealtimes; you probably won't fill the diner at 1530 no matter what you're trying), at least as-is. If you were also spreading commissary expenses over an order of magnitude more trains that would be one thing, but if the diners weren't printing money in the 1950s and 1960s on 18-car trains I can't see them making money with the current equipment mix.


I frequently don't get hungry until around that 1500/1530 time, so often have breakfast around 7 am, lunch at 3:30 pm, and then a snack around 9 pm. Does anyone else have that kind hungry time clock or similar?


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## Mystic River Dragon

neroden said:


> It is possible to run profitable dining cars; every "dinner train" in the country proves it. But the Silvers and LSL have more than enough ridership, as does the EB most months.



On the Silver Meteor (and the Star when it had a dining car), I routinely met British and European travelers who had flown into New York and were taking the overnight train to Florida specifically to experience the dining car. Some of them said they didn't get the chance at home anymore because all their trains were so fast now that there were no overnight ones, and they missed the experience, so added it to their American vacation.



Barb Stout said:


> I frequently don't get hungry until around that 1500/1530 time, so often have breakfast around 7 am, lunch at 3:30 pm, and then a snack around 9 pm. Does anyone else have that kind hungry time clock or similar?



I'm so glad I'm not the only one with a schedule like that! I have breakfast around 7:00 and lunch/dinner around 3:00. No snack later, though (oh, oops, forgot those little pieces of dark chocolate.) So I always went to the earliest seating in the dining car.


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## crescent-zephyr

neroden said:


> It is possible to run profitable dining cars; every "dinner train" in the country proves it. It requires VOLUME. Amtrak has made no efforts to achieve volume.



How can dinner trains make money because of volume when they only operate one seating per train? Dinner train staff is part time low-wage employees vs. full time with benefits higher wage employees that have various transportation (transfers to hotels, hotels, etc.) paid for by the company. Dinner trains can just run to a local store the day of the train and load up supplies... it's a totally different operation that can't even remotely compare.


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## seat38a

crescent-zephyr said:


> How can dinner trains make money because of volume when they only operate one seating per train? Dinner train staff is part time low-wage employees vs. full time with benefits higher wage employees that have various transportation (transfers to hotels, hotels, etc.) paid for by the company. Dinner trains can just run to a local store the day of the train and load up supplies... it's a totally different operation that can't even remotely compare.


When I read the original post of "dinner train" I almost died laughing.  But seriously, based on past gripes about the prices that Amtrak charges in the dining car, I have a feeling there would be quite a bit of heart attacks if some saw the cost for a "dinner train." The Nappa Valley Wine Train would set one back a pretty penny.


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## JRR

On our recent trip from Greenville, SC to NYP on the Crescent, here are pictures of what was offered for breakfast:





The Sleeping Car attendant advised that there were no breakfast sandwiches since they were all eaten by the New Orleans passengers the previous day. Note there was one banana ( we were early risers so there were none after my wife took it). 

This is a far cry from the full breakfast which was being served when I bought the ticket and Amtrak received the “revenue” for the meal, whatever they chose to allocate for it.

When I get my report on our trip, I’ll report on the experience but I’ll just say now that the pictures speak volumes!


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## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the V2 diners make an attractive lounge. Since most sleeping car passengers coming to the lounge would like a table for either board games, books, laptops, or food... keeping the tables seems like the best move.



I disagree. They make an attractive cafe car but not a lounge. Some comfortable swivel seats would help but nothing will bring back the service or make the food taste better.

More likely, Amtrak will provide microwaving instructions and dump the last remaining person then have the SCAs clean the car once a day as part of their job. That last bit will mean announcements to sleeper passengers that they'd better clean the car themselves and, when it's not done, the car will be locked - just like they do with the bathrooms in coach. That of course, assumes the SCAs aren't removed and you find your linen (and a disposable toilet brush) in the room when boarding along with the demand that you must clean the room prior to disembarking.


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## me_little_me

JRR said:


> On our recent trip from Greenville, SC to NYP on the Crescent, here are pictures of what was offered for breakfast:
> 
> 
> The Sleeping Car attendant advised that there were no breakfast sandwiches since they were all eaten by the New Orleans passengers the previous day. Note there was one banana ( we were early risers so there were none after my wife took it).
> 
> This is a far cry from the full breakfast which was being served when I bought the ticket and Amtrak received the “revenue” for the meal, whatever they chose to allocate for it.
> 
> When I get my report on our trip, I’ll report on the experience but I’ll just say now that the pictures speak volumes!



Stop whining. We didn't even get Kind bars and every banana was rotten on our Crescent trip. As to the microwaved rubber sandwiches, they were worse than worthless.


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## OBS

me_little_me said:


> Stop whining. We didn't even get Kind bars and every banana was rotten on our Crescent trip. As to the microwaved rubber sandwiches, they were worse than worthless.


Hopefully everyone is complaining to Amtrak about food runouts....there is no excuse for it....


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## lordsigma

OBS said:


> Hopefully everyone is complaining to Amtrak about food runouts....there is no excuse for it....



Yes please complain to customer relations. At the very minimum they need to provide adequate stock of the food items and it seems they need much improvement in that department. Do they have the new point of sale on the Crescent yet? I saw it recently on Auto Train. The point of sale system is supposed to help with stocking over time. Once the POS is in place, they are supposed to be entering everything distributed (free or not free) into the point of sale to help make better statistics of what is consumed and assist with inventory. Over time they can compare this to the ridership data and be able to better predict how much food is needed. The real key thing will be the eventual online preselection of meals before the trip, and I hope they offer that option to the traditional diners on the western trains and auto train as well as I think that could be an improvement across the board.


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## bratkinson

Seeing the lack of anything substantive at breakfast, and the nothing in the current lunch/dinner menu I'd choose to eat, I'll continue my buy food before boarding and/or in the cafe car. 

And to ensure I get my 'value' of the included meals in the sleeper fare, I'll likely start choosing my food then immediately dumping it directly into the trash in clear view of the hapless attendant. Maybe that will send a message to Anderson. My biggest gripe was, and still is, switching from edible to unhealthy food for this diabetic, there was no reduction in sleeper ticket prices. Given that the Great Annual Florida Migration is about to begin, how many of THOSE passengers will ever come back once they realize the poor quality of the food?


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## jis

You may be better off bitching to Customer Service if you wish Anderson to know about it. Throwing food away just out of spite is stupid IMHO, no matter how distasteful the food is to you. You can rest assured that Anderson will only see things that are actually recorded in some metric, and I am sure some sap throwing food into garbage is not one of those things.


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## crescent-zephyr

bratkinson said:


> Seeing the lack of anything substantive at breakfast, and the nothing in the current lunch/dinner menu I'd choose to eat, I'll continue my buy food before boarding and/or in the cafe car.



I've got a big problem with "contemporary dining" but I was able to find a few things to eat for breakfast. I had 2 dishes of Cheerios, yogurt, fruit, and a kind bar. I'm not sure what you're getting from the cafe car that is any better. Now would I rather have scrambled eggs and potatoes? Yes of course.


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## pennyk

bratkinson said:


> And to ensure I get my 'value' of the included meals in the sleeper fare, I'll likely start choosing my food then immediately dumping it directly into the trash in clear view of the hapless attendant.



I agree with Jis that dumping food in the trash is not a good plan. I also agree that phoning or writing customer relations is a good idea with coherent complaints and avoiding rants. I have food allergies and am unable to eat any of the flex dining lunches or dinners. I have been communicating with customer relations for over a month and 2 (of the 3 encountered) agents have been pleasant, helpful, proactive and accommodating.


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## Bob Dylan

Hopefully if enough Amtrak riders, not just AUers and AGR Members, complain about the Alpo Meals being served to Sleeping Car passengers, the Powers that be will at least consider providing Higher Quality and Healthier choices with Pre-Selection available when Booking!??? NOT!!!


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## Amtrakfflyer

Acela first class meals nothing less (but hopefully more). The logistics aren’t overwhelming if management wanted dining to be a success. 

Another idea, how about bringing back the fresh baked bedtime cookies in the V2 sleeper lounge from 10 years ago? Cheap and easy. Airlines bake cookies onboard, hotel lobbies do as well. 
It would be a nice touch and the LSA could easily do it with the pre made dough that’s readily available. Put them on a table in the lounge for passengers to enjoy between 7-9pm.

That one item would probably be the freshest item onboard sadly.


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## neroden

Anderson said:


> (1) "Dinner trains" don't have to carry a full crew all the way from end to end or deal with multiple commissaries.
> (2) I doubt the diners could be profitable at full capacity (at mealtimes; you probably won't fill the diner at 1530 no matter what you're trying), at least as-is. If you were also spreading commissary expenses over an order of magnitude more trains that would be one thing, but if the diners weren't printing money in the 1950s and 1960s on 18-car trains I can't see them making money with the current equipment mix.



One of the things I noticed is that the dining cars on Amtrak have never, in my experience, really operated at full capacity.

Could they make a profit at full capacity? Who knows?

In the 1950s and 1960s I'm honestly not sure they were operating at full capacity either. Those 18-car trains were not typically sold out, and I'm not at all sure that everyone on the train was eating in the dining car. Worse, this was the period when railroads were losing business to airlines and cars; so they had to keep prices low.

In the 1930s, with wartime restrictions on car fuel purchase, I think they were operating at full capacity; but I've never looked at the railroad financial statements from that period. In the 1910s, I'm pretty sure they were also operating at full capacity.


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## neroden

crescent-zephyr said:


> How can dinner trains make money because of volume when they only operate one seating per train? Dinner train staff is part time low-wage employees vs. full time with benefits higher wage employees that have various transportation (transfers to hotels, hotels, etc.) paid for by the company. Dinner trains can just run to a local store the day of the train and load up supplies... it's a totally different operation that can't even remotely compare.



Actually, it compares pretty much perfectly.

Having read a few books on the history of dining cars on trains, *private railroads often just ran to a store the day of the train and loaded up on supplies*. They even did so mid-route, with chefs arranging to pick up fresh supplies at intermediate stations.

I don't think the difference in employee pay is fundamental. If what it takes to run a profitable dining car is to have non-unionized labor, fine, that works for me. I don't believe this, though; the difference in labor costs isn't enough to make sense.

Dinner trains may have one seating, but they have one kitchen car (possibly with pre-made food) serving *four or five table cars full of passengers*. That's your economy of scale right there. They may have one attendant delivering food per car... or they may have fewer! Again, economies of scale. I don't know of any which succeed with only a single table car, or even with two table cars come to think of it.

It is quite possible that a single car which is half kitchen and half tables is just too small to make a profit on one seating. It may be necessary to fill *two* (or even three!) cars full of tables per seating, in order to make a profit. And it may be necessary to have pretty high prices. And a pretty small selection of options. That is all stuff I'd believe, because I know something about the economics of restaurants.

It's quite possible that the scale necessary to have profitable dining cars is hard to come by. It may really require more than one table car. (That said, I'm pretty sure the Auto Train was at least close.)


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## seat38a

bratkinson said:


> Seeing the lack of anything substantive at breakfast, and the nothing in the current lunch/dinner menu I'd choose to eat, I'll continue my buy food before boarding and/or in the cafe car.
> 
> And to ensure I get my 'value' of the included meals in the sleeper fare, I'll likely start choosing my food then immediately dumping it directly into the trash in clear view of the hapless attendant. Maybe that will send a message to Anderson. My biggest gripe was, and still is, switching from edible to unhealthy food for this diabetic, there was no reduction in sleeper ticket prices. Given that the Great Annual Florida Migration is about to begin, how many of THOSE passengers will ever come back once they realize the poor quality of the food?



You obviously didn't have parents that walked to school up the hill both ways with no shoes.  Cause if you did, you'd NEVER be throwing away good food out of spite.  So far in this post, I think we've had like 3-4 people who mentioned throwing away food out of site. I guess it just never enters their mind to give it to someone else aboard the train who doesn't have the luxury of throwing away food out of site.


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## crescent-zephyr

neroden said:


> Actually, it compares pretty much perfectly.
> 
> Having read a few books on the history of dining cars on trains, *private railroads often just ran to a store the day of the train and loaded up on supplies*. They even did so mid-route, with chefs arranging to pick up fresh supplies at intermediate stations.
> 
> I don't think the difference in employee pay is fundamental. If what it takes to run a profitable dining car is to have non-unionized labor, fine, that works for me. I don't believe this, though; the difference in labor costs isn't enough to make sense.
> 
> Dinner trains may have one seating, but they have one kitchen car (possibly with pre-made food) serving *four or five table cars full of passengers*. That's your economy of scale right there. They may have one attendant delivering food per car... or they may have fewer! Again, economies of scale. I don't know of any which succeed with only a single table car, or even with two table cars come to think of it.
> 
> It is quite possible that a single car which is half kitchen and half tables is just too small to make a profit on one seating. It may be necessary to fill *two* (or even three!) cars full of tables per seating, in order to make a profit. And it may be necessary to have pretty high prices. And a pretty small selection of options. That is all stuff I'd believe, because I know something about the economics of restaurants.
> 
> It's quite possible that the scale necessary to have profitable dining cars is hard to come by. It may really require more than one table car. (That said, I'm pretty sure the Auto Train was at least close.)



No. Private railroads had commissaries, just like Amtrak did. 

If you don’t understand the difference in pay you have no business knowledge. Most businesses are trying to only have part time employees to avoid the expense of providing benefits. And then there is the fact that Amtrak employees make 25-50% more, hourly than a dinner train employee and that they are provided with a hotel room and transportation at the end of the line. I’m not sure how anyone could say those costs wouldn’t make a difference. 

The dinner train I worked for had a kitchen in each diner, with 3 diners. Each diner had 3 people in the kitchen, and 4 servers plus there was a head steward. How did the dinner train you worked for operate? 

And how on earth was the auto train close? All the meals were free!


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## neroden

You have a point about the way the Auto Train did meal accounting...

Interestingly I've never seen a dinner train which operated the way yours did. Seems pretty inefficient, I admit. Most of the ones I've seen leveraged a single kitchen car over multiple table cars!

How high were your prices? You had *14* food service employees and only three half-cars worth of tables! For one seating? I guess if your dining cars seated as many as Amtrak Viewliner IIs, that's about 132 customers if you sell out, so about one employee for every 10 customers.

A small high-end hole-in-the-wall restaurant might have about 40 seats and seat people three times, so that's about the right minimum size; they'd also have 4 or 5 waiters; but they'd have 1 kitchen with 3-4 people in it, not three kitchens. A restaurant with a bigger kitchen staff would have more seats (or do a lot of takeout).

And I'm not kidding about the private railroads picking up ingredients en route. They did that. Yes, they also had central commissaries *to save money* -- it's cheaper than going to the store. :eyeroll: That's a financial situation where the dinner trains are at a disadvantage, so the comparison is valid.

It certainly costs more to provide service on board than it does to provide it in a fixed restaurant. This means that either (a) the service has to be more upscale and have higher margins per item, or (b) it has to be higher volume, with more economies of scale.

I don't believe that the pay scale difference between Amtrak and a private operation is significant, meaningful or relevant, because as I said, if what you need for profitable dining cars is just cheaper labor, fine -- this seems extremely unlikely, but if it's the case, we can just start the Pullman Company and run profitable dining cars. I believe the problems are more fundamental issues of having sufficient volume of demand and providing food of a quality such that high margins can be charged.

I *know* the Texas Eagle never has enough demand to fill its dining car. There's just no way to come close to breaking even under those conditions.

The Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited have repeatedly been in the position of turning away customers due to having too much demand. *That* is where a profitable dining car may be possible... if you can figure out how to serve everyone without hiring a lot more employees.


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## crescent-zephyr

neroden said:


> You have a point about the way the Auto Train did meal accounting...
> 
> Interestingly I've never seen a dinner train which operated the way yours did. Seems pretty inefficient, I admit. Most of the ones I've seen leveraged a single kitchen car over multiple table cars, and NONE of them had as many servers as you had! How high were your prices? You had *14* employees and only three half-cars worth of tables!
> 
> (Also, seriously, 25% - 50% wage difference? This is not the difference between profit and loss, not in a restaurant with high prices. The hotel rooms make a bit of a difference, but not that much. Number of employees is a much bigger issue.)
> 
> And I'm not kidding about the private railroads picking up ingredients en route. They did that. Yes, they also had central commissaries *to save money* -- it's cheaper than going to the store. :eyeroll:



Even Strasburg Railroad has 3 employees in their dining car for lunch. And they are just serving pre-made food that’s loaded up from the snack bar at the station. I’m not sure what dinner train operation you rode that has 1 attendant for a full 48 seat diner. 

And 25-50% wage increase in addition to full time benefits. It’s the benefits that change everything.


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## neroden

Benefits, *specifically* health insurance benefits, have messed up the economics of almost every industry in the country. They more-than-double the costs from the actual pay. So point taken.

But you seem to be making the case that we literally could start a Pullman Company and run profitable dining cars, just by not providing benefits. Wanna do it?

Dinner trains do have another, subtler advantage over Amtrak: if they don't sell enough tickets they can cancel the run entirely. Most on-the-ground restaurants have the same advantage.

Most restaurants actually make the majority their money on a couple of evenings per week (Friday and Saturday, typically), and if they're open the rest of the week, this is efforts to defray fixed costs which exist whether the restaurant is open or not. (But many restaurants have one or more days per week when they don't open, often Mondays.) Amtrak suffers by having to run the same dining car on Thanksgiving Day, when ridership is nearly 0, as they do on the day before, when all the trains are packed. 

Come to think of it, this is another advantage the original Pullman Company had. When they first started with their one dining car, the Delmonico, they could run it on the days when they expected high traffic, and not run it on the days when they didn't. Hmmm. And of course they were profitable -- at first.

This has been an interesting discussion which is getting me deeper into the weeds of dining car finance...

(... and everything I learn or see is pointing to pre-ordering meals weeks before as being the core change which would allow for matching service to demand.)


----------



## bratkinson

Back maybe 20 years ago or so, when Amtrak diners routinely had 3 in the kitchen and 4 on the floor, I watched them turn the tables 3, sometimes 4 times at dinner. How many times they can turn the tables is 90% dependent on the number of employees doing the work. These days, in the Superliner diners out west except for #1/2 & 21/22, I think it's 2 downstairs and 2 or 3 upstairs serving on both sides. During 2019, I've had 7-8 dinners in full-service Superliner diners and I think that, at best, they turned 1/2 the tables once. Yes, they had multiple seating times, but that was only to spread out the flow of meals and even the workload for the minimal staff they had. And this year on the Meteor and Crescent prior to 10/1? I'd say they only turned the tables once, and perhaps a couple tables twice, mostly due to not enough staff as well as 2 or 3 sleepers full of passengers don't put that much 'demand' on the diner. It was a far cry from 40 years ago on the Meteor when 2 diners were serving full speed ahead for 7-8 sleepers and perhaps 4-5 coaches full of passengers.


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## Anderson

When I was doing scratch-pad math on sleeper limits for the eastern LD trains, I used three dinner seatings as my basis. It's _possible_ you could turn a table four times, but that would likely involve a relatively rushed experience or heavily-stretched meal times. My guess is that three is the "normal" limit while you could get to 3.5 or 4.0 seatings on super-peak days.


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## pennyk

Again, please remember that this topic is Flex Dining. Please stay on topic. Thank you.


----------



## Palmetto

You're working overtime on this thread, Penny!


----------



## tricia

This THREAD is working overtime--1553 posts!


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## Amtrakfflyer

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.bloo...mtrak-s-dining-cars-have-a-long-grand-history

Opinion piece from Bloomberg


----------



## Barb Stout

JRR said:


> On our recent trip from Greenville, SC to NYP on the Crescent, here are pictures of what was offered for breakfast:
> 
> View attachment 15825
> View attachment 15826
> 
> 
> The Sleeping Car attendant advised that there were no breakfast sandwiches since they were all eaten by the New Orleans passengers the previous day. Note there was one banana ( we were early risers so there were none after my wife took it).
> 
> This is a far cry from the full breakfast which was being served when I bought the ticket and Amtrak received the “revenue” for the meal, whatever they chose to allocate for it.
> 
> When I get my report on our trip, I’ll report on the experience but I’ll just say now that the pictures speak volumes!


OMG


----------



## Devil's Advocate

JRR said:


> On our recent trip from Greenville, SC to NYP on the Crescent, here are pictures of what was offered for breakfast: View attachment 15825
> View attachment 15826
> The Sleeping Car attendant advised that there were no breakfast sandwiches since they were all eaten by the New Orleans passengers the previous day. Note there was one banana ( we were early risers so there were none after my wife took it). This is a far cry from the full breakfast which was being served when I bought the ticket and Amtrak received the “revenue” for the meal, whatever they chose to allocate for it. When I get my report on our trip, I’ll report on the experience but I’ll just say now that the pictures speak volumes!


I wonder how long it will take for some version of this to come to the Western Routes.


----------



## lordsigma

Devil's Advocate said:


> I wonder how long it will take for some version of this to come to the Western Routes.


Unless Anderson is outright lying, it isn't. At least not to the CZ, EB, and CS. If anything I'd maybe be concerned they might pull shenanigans on the TE, SWC, and SL as Anderson has not listed those as trains they want to continue. Given the reaction they got to the SWC bus bridge, maybe they leave the chief alone for now. SL seems to be his next target so that's where I'd expect a dining downgrade if any. Although I doubt anything changes dining wise on any of these trains until we get through reauthorization although they have stated a menu entrée refresh is coming sometime soon for traditional dining and at least the auto train is getting complimentary wine back. After they get through that process and know whether they are going to get any of their desired route changes or not, then maybe some more changes will come.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Is it just me or is anyone else worried about the upcoming “refresh” to the western menus? 

Amtrak is still claiming people wanted the fresh choice flexible dining and in ways disingenuously claims its an upgrade to the old dining. I can’t imagine the western refresh being anything but a downgrade at this point.


----------



## lordsigma

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Is it just me or is anyone else worried about the upcoming “refresh” to the western menus?
> 
> Amtrak is still claiming people wanted the fresh choice flexible dining and in ways disingenuously claims its an upgrade to the old dining. I can’t imagine the western refresh being anything but a downgrade at this point.


It sounded like a menu rotation (which they used to do much more frequently) not a change to the way the service is provided. I'm sure some of the more popular staples (Amtrak Signature Steak, Land and Sea entree, etc.) will be maintained and they will just rotate some of the other items which used to be rotated more frequently. I myself don't understand why they sometimes paint flex dining as an upgrade rather than just saying they have a mandate to reduce costs and they feel this is an appropriate service model for the shorter eastern trains. At the same time they admit it's a downgrade by leaving traditional dining on the two night trains (and on the auto train which is the biggest cash cow and best performing revenue wise of all the long distance trains.)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I’m expecting the “western refresh” to shrink the menu down. For example... entree salad, burgers, and grilled chicken is the menu for lunch and dinner and maybe add the steak for dinner.


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m expecting the “western refresh” to shrink the menu down. For example... entree salad, burgers, and grilled chicken is the menu for lunch and dinner and maybe add the steak for dinner.


Fingers crossed, but so far the only good change IMO is Coke for Pepsi!


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## Qapla

Bob Dylan said:


> change IMO is Coke for Pepsi!



.... another downgrade ! ! !


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## cocojacoby

Qapla said:


> .... another downgrade ! ! !


NOOOO . . . Especially if they offer Coke Zero.


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## Qapla

cocojacoby said:


> NOOOO . . . Especially if they offer Coke Zero.



a DOUBLE Downgrade


----------



## Rasputin

While dining cars and the trains on which they run decline into oblivion, some prefer to debate the benefits of certain types of flavored water, sugared and unsugared.


----------



## Anderson

Rasputin said:


> While dining cars and the trains on which they run decline into oblivion, some prefer to debate the benefits of certain types of flavored water, sugared and unsugared.


Probably because if we don't distract ourselves once in a while, we'll all go mad ;-)


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## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> Unless Anderson is outright lying, it isn't.


So you think the western train dining is also doomed.


----------



## daybeers

me_little_me said:


> So you think the western train dining is also doomed.


I think so. I'm planning a trip around the country on LD trains in summer 2020 so I hope the dining doesn't change by then.


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## lordsigma

daybeers said:


> I think so. I'm planning a trip around the country on LD trains in summer 2020 so I hope the dining doesn't change by then.


I am as well and hope the same, but I'm trying to be cautiously optimistic it's not doomed on the trains I'm going on. Although I will get to experience flex dining on the Lake Shore. I don't think they are going to just stick flex dining on the western trains. Whether they do something to the menu to downgrade it in a different way, we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Winecliff Station

I'll be on the Lake Shore tomorrow from NY to Syracuse, not because I need a roomette for only 6 hours but because no good deed goes unpunished.... I had coach booked on LSL from RHI to SYR but then offered to work in NY tomorrow, thinking I will just add NYP-RHI to my reservation. Wrong! Of course coach is sold out on that segment and I can't use my 10-trip NYP-RHI pass on the LSL, so it looks like another Asian noodle feast for me. Maybe it isn't such a bad idea given how crowded coach will be, plus most of the ride will be after dark so I may even sleep some.


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## me_little_me

She at least made it presentable! On board the Crescent on Dec 30 northbound from New Orleans. The dining attendant not only brought the coffee and Egg McRubber to the table, she plated it. At lunch, she brought both the drinks and my meal, she heated the roll in aluminum foil. 
The only attendant deserving a tip for the new dining. She even understood why my wife got her meal in the café to eat in the diner.


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## Thirdrail7

me_little_me said:


> The dining attendant not only brought the coffee and Egg McRubber to the table,



They'll probably charge her.


----------



## Twinkletoes

I tried to post last night, but I didn't have my password. I was on the same train. We may have crossed paths. I also thought the dining care attendant gave excellent service. Breakfast - I got the hot sandwich. The other available items reminded me of the available selections at work conferences held in large hotels where they serve a continental breakfast: cold cereals and dry oatmeal (for which they presumably give you hot water); plenty of bananas in edible condition, blueberry muffins (not bad. I succumbed and got one after the sandwich). On the 29th, the day I boarded, I deliberately chose to forego lunch because--as I explained to the SCA--I didn't want two dinners. Instead I brought my own sandwich and chips from home and had a soda on Amtrak. The one dinner that I had was the shrimp, rice, and sausage (Creole) meal.

After leaving the northbound train 20, I connected in New York City to the Acela and used one of my Amtrak Select upgrade coupons to take first class. I got the salmon (well cooked, but too much black rice or whatever that was, 4 peapods and one cherry tomato; not salad). The dessert was some syrup soaked "bready" thing which I didn't like and didn't finish. I mention Acela "First Class" because it reminded me that food alone isn't enough to make me choose to pay more. Specifically, I like the quiet car, so I had to put up with cell phone chatter in First Class.

I also got to experience flex dining on my southbound train (#19). I didn't bring a sandwich, but declined to have two dinners so I went to the snack bar and got a turkey sandwich, ate my own snack chips, and soda by Amtrak (I ate in my room). The one dinner that I had was the beef with green beans and polenta. The beef was OK; the polenta was dry and tasteless. The second day breakfast shows that one thing lacking is that Amtrak has no consistent service standards. Here the attendant stayed in the cooking booth and had people come to the window to get their orders. He never came out and pointed people over to the bar to get the cold items. It was clear that older people who had traditionally ridden the trains were confused about what they were supposed to do. After years of coming to the diner and sitting down and having someone take your order, the new set up is a rude awakening. Branding the new way as "flex" is a farce designed to connote an improved and positive state of affairs. In reality, it's a cutback aimed at saving money by employing fewer people. 

To sum up, eating these (frozen) dinners, they were neither best thing nor the worst thing thing I've ever eaten. For those familiar with them, the experience was similar to eating one of the various frozen entrees available in the grocery stores (branded with name like Lean Cuisine, Stouffers, and others). According to ones taste preferences, some of them are more edible than others. I have a handful of supermarket entrees that I like. None of the flex entrees were anything that I would look forward to having such as the Railroad French Toast, creamy breakfast grits, or crab cakes of sainted memory.


----------



## Texan Eagle

_Posting after a long hiatus, so if this has already been discussed please direct me to the appropriate thread
_
I just got off a journey on the Crescent from Atlanta to New York, disappointed that there is no longer a Dining Car on that train. The Cafe-Lounge attendant told me that seat-down Dining service has been eliminated from all east-of-Mississippi trains effective Oct 1, 2019. Is this indeed true? If that is the case, what happens to all the new Viewliner II Dining Cars Amtrak ordered spending a truckload of money?

Very very disappointed and angry at this whole change (as I can guess many of you must be too) so had to come here to say it out!

MODERATOR NOTE: This thread has been merged with the (long) thread on this topic.


----------



## pennyk

Texan Eagle said:


> _Posting after a long hiatus, so if this has already been discussed please direct me to the appropriate thread
> _
> I just got off a journey on the Crescent from Atlanta to New York, disappointed that there is no longer a Dining Car on that train. The Cafe-Lounge attendant told me that seat-down Dining service has been eliminated from all east-of-Mississippi trains effective Oct 1, 2019. Is this indeed true? If that is the case, what happens to all the new Viewliner II Dining Cars Amtrak ordered spending a truckload of money?
> 
> Very very disappointed and angry at this whole change (as I can guess many of you must be too) so had to come here to say it out!
> 
> MODERATOR NOTE: This thread has been merged with the (long) thread on this topic.


The new Viewliner dining cars, as of now, are still used on the Silver Meteor and the Crescent and are referred to as "Sleeper Lounges."


----------



## Rail Freak

Bob Dylan said:


> Fingers crossed, but so far the only good change IMO is Coke for Pepsi!


LOL! I'm a Pepsi man, but I really enjoy them both,as long as there's a little shot of Jim Beam


pennyk said:


> The new Viewliner dining cars, as of now, are still used on the Silver Meteor and the Crescent and are referred to as "Sleeper Lounges."


How many more are in available inventory, Penny? Thanx ,this topic I've been very interested in!


----------



## Rasputin

pennyk said:


> The new Viewliner dining cars, as of now, are still used on the Silver Meteor and the Crescent and are referred to as "Sleeper Lounges."


I still think they should be called picnic table cars.


----------



## Manny T

I recently took the Cardinal from Chicago to Baltimore in a sleeper. That gave me the "opportunity" to sample 3 "contemporary" entrees plus breakfast in one 24 hour period.

Bottom line, without giving an item by item breakdown (that's been done), _it was disgusting_, the worst culinary experience I could ever imagine, something that no leisure traveler in the USA should be subjected to, let alone at premium prices. Even if an individual item was good (e.g. the blondie was good--but not 3 within 24 hours), the repetition would destroy the enjoyment.

For my return trip, I spent $20 dollars on food items at the Walgreens in the basement of Union Station (D.C.) and ate far far better than in Andersonville.

I will continue to take sleepers, but will bring food until the situation improves.


----------



## Steve4031

I will not pay for sleeper travel on these trains. I’ve twice chosen to fly to nyc to avoid contemporary dining.


----------



## JRR

This fall we rode the Crescent to NYP from Greenville SC to NYP. We get up early even after a very late pickup in Greenville and got to breakfast right at 6:30 AM. There was one gentleman ahead of us and he got the last breakfast sandwich. The attendant told me that they had almost all been used up by the passengers leaving NO. My wife got the last banana! The attached pictures show the skimpy offerings.


----------



## tonys96

Yuck.


----------



## Rasputin

Looks far worse than your standard low budget hotel free breakfast.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Rasputin said:


> Looks far worse than your standard low budget hotel free breakfast.


It's honestly kind of crazy to think that Amtrak is struggling to keep up with the likes of Hampton, Holiday Inn, and Super 8's rudimentary offerings. It's also extremely unfortunate that Anderson wasted no time in squandering political capital attempting to turn the Southwest Chief into a broken bus route instead of joining forces with Amtrak's supporters to push back against the Mica Meal directives.


----------



## bretton88

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's honestly kind of crazy to think that Amtrak is struggling to keep up with the likes of Hampton, Holiday Inn, and Super 8's rudimentary offerings. It's also extremely unfortunate that Anderson wasted no time in squandering political capital attempting to turn the Southwest Chief into a broken bus route instead of joining forces with Amtrak's supporters to push back against the Mica Meal directives.


That's still better than a Super 8 (I've stayed in many of them recently). Having said that, you only pay 60$ for a Super 8 compared to many hundreds for a sleeper. So I'd like to see at least Holiday inn/ Hampton Inn quality, which quite frankly is where the previous service was at.


----------



## MARC Rider

bretton88 said:


> That's still better than a Super 8 (I've stayed in many of them recently). Having said that, you only pay 60$ for a Super 8 compared to many hundreds for a sleeper. So I'd like to see at least Holiday inn/ Hampton Inn quality, which quite frankly is where the previous service was at.



Despite all the cutbacks, the remaining diner service on the western trains is better than Holiday Inn/Hampton Inn buffet breakfasts.

Comparing with cheap motel breakfasts is also sort of pointless, as your typical cheap motel doesn't provide transportation in addition to a place to sleep and a lousy buffet breakfast. A roomette provides you with that and gives you a place to sleep lying down in privacy and using the space occupied by 4 coach seats up in the cheap cars. No wonder it costs more than a Super 8.


----------



## Rasputin

I have had many very nice buffet breakfasts at budget hotels. At some the staff is very helpful and welcoming. I look forward to staying at these places and going to breakfast there. I do not look forward to the flex dining breakfast on Amtrak which seems like just something to endure.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> Despite all the cutbacks, the remaining diner service on the western trains is better than Holiday Inn/Hampton Inn buffet breakfasts.


Despite all the cutbacks the Western trains still haven't gone through Anderson's flexi-contempo dining "upgrade" yet.



MARC Rider said:


> Comparing with cheap motel breakfasts is also sort of pointless, as your typical cheap motel doesn't provide transportation in addition to a place to sleep and a lousy buffet breakfast. A roomette provides you with that and gives you a place to sleep lying down in privacy and using the space occupied by 4 coach seats up in the cheap cars. No wonder it costs more than a Super 8.


Comparing Amtrak meals to Hampton or Holiday Inn gives readers a simple and obvious point of reference. Everyone views those meals differently but most people know what they look and taste like even if they've never traveled on Amtrak. That was the point of using them as a reference.


----------



## bretton88

MARC Rider said:


> Despite all the cutbacks, the remaining diner service on the western trains is better than Holiday Inn/Hampton Inn buffet breakfasts.
> 
> Comparing with cheap motel breakfasts is also sort of pointless, as your typical cheap motel doesn't provide transportation in addition to a place to sleep and a lousy buffet breakfast. A roomette provides you with that and gives you a place to sleep lying down in privacy and using the space occupied by 4 coach seats up in the cheap cars. No wonder it costs more than a Super 8.


Correct, I'm not saying that Amtrak should be priced like the hotel. You get a lot more with a sleeper ticket than just a bed. It's just an easy point of reference.


----------



## lordsigma

There is talk on another unnamed message board that the “Starvation” will be no more as of May 1 with flex dining arriving for that train.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

JRR said:


> The attached pictures show the skimpy offerings.
> 
> View attachment 16379
> View attachment 16380



Not even any milk for the cereal? We're expected to eat it dry, or using a bunch of half&half "creamers" ? 

Give me a break!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Not even any milk for the cereal? We're expected to eat it dry, or using a bunch of half&half "creamers" ?
> 
> Give me a break!


 You can ask for milk from the attendant and hope they haven’t run out. Be warned, if you forgot to order milk for your cereal when you asked for your yogurt and go back to ask for milk the attendant may act extremely annoyed with you! (May or may not be speaking from personal experience... I didn’t dare ask if I could have a second yougurt!  )


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Not even any milk for the cereal? We're expected to eat it dry, or using a bunch of half&half "creamers" ?
> 
> Give me a break!



The milk is in the fridge where it should be. I got milk for all my meals by asking the LSA. I did not have cereal, though.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> The milk is in the fridge where it should be. I got milk for all my meals by asking the LSA. I did not have cereal, though.


Yeah. I had no problem getting milk either, and I did have cereal at all breakfasts that I had in the Sleeper Lounges.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

For those who had the original version of contemporary dining (the salad boxes) how does this compare?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> For those who had the original version of contemporary dining (the salad boxes) how does this compare?


It's better. I prefer the Chicken Alfredo to the beef they had in the box meal. Plus I prefer the tray to the box. Though the box was a really nice one - one I might have saved if I had gotten it at a restaurant - it was a shame to toss it. The trays can be reused ... if people pay attention and place them in a stack where the LSA has set up to collect them.


----------



## Qapla

Although some sleeper passengers might not agree - I would be happy with a "lounge" car that had tables with chairs (not benches) with an area to get ice from an automated dispenser and a few microwaves to heat food I brought with me and a selection of "condiments" like salt, pepper, Parmesan cheese, mustard, ketchup, relish (you know) ... and the lower fare for a sleeper without food.


----------



## me_little_me

pennyk said:


> The new Viewliner dining cars, as of now, are still used on the Silver Meteor and the Crescent and are referred to as "Sleeper Lounges."


Simplification, Penny. The truth is that they are being wasted as they are neither a diner nor a lounge. The cooking facilities are probably full of cobwebs; the seats are terrible benches for a lounge and mostly unused for "dining". They have become "Anderson's Folly Cars" and should be renamed as such from their present state capital names.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> Simplification, Penny. The truth is that they are being wasted as they are neither a diner nor a lounge. The cooking facilities are probably full of cobwebs; the seats are terrible benches for a lounge and mostly unused for "dining". They have become "Anderson's Folly Cars" and should be renamed as such from their present state capital names.



That’s an exaggeration. The cooking facilities include the refrigerators and prep areas which are being used. The seats are quite comfortable for lounging and I think the booth seating is the best for a multi-purpose food service car.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s an exaggeration. The cooking facilities include the refrigerators and prep areas which are being used. The seats are quite comfortable for lounging and I think the booth seating is the best for a multi-purpose food service car.


That's where you have it wrong. "food service car". Neither food to some of us nor any relevance to service for others.

Obviously, you missed the sarcasm about the new Amtrak in my comment on Penny's accurate, succinct description. And in my comment to you.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I didn’t say edible food or good service!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I think we're all/mostly on the same side here. I can't even remember the last time someone seriously defended Andertrak's flexi-con nonsense. If we're going to bicker let's at least pick something we strongly disagree about.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Why couldn’t they have adopted something more akin to Cascades food service? People seem to enjoy their fresh entree offerings and even the soups and sandwhiches. 

Better yet, how about this; resume traditional dining for sleeper car passengers only, and just remove lunch service? Offer flexible dining to coach passengers for an increased fare, or hell, just serve flex meals out of the café. 

There are so many things that can be streamlined, cut, and trimmed without screwing people over in the process.


----------



## Ryan

ShiningTimeStL said:


> resume traditional dining for sleeper car passengers only, and just remove lunch service?



The Congressional mandate is to end food and beverage losses.

This plan would do nothing to cut costs (you're still paying for staff) and reduce revenue by serving few meals. Wrong direction.


----------



## MARC Rider

AmtrakBlue said:


> The milk is in the fridge where it should be. I got milk for all my meals by asking the LSA. I did not have cereal, though.


I got pretty much unlimited non-alcoholic beverages, even between meals, when I took the Capitol and the Cardinal to/from the Gathering. I don't drink milk, but I suppose if I had wanted it, it would have been provided. 

And the attendant on the Cardinal asked me if I wanted another oatmeal. I sure did, as they are a bit skimpy in portion. They could provide a larger serving of unsweetened oatmeal (although I don't know if the manufacturers even make plain instant oatmeal) and the let the passengers doctor it up with however much sugar they want. They could even provide some raisins.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Ryan said:


> The Congressional mandate is to end food and beverage losses.
> 
> This plan would do nothing to cut costs (you're still paying for staff) and reduce revenue by serving few meals. Wrong direction.



Cascades “Bistro” service then, unless you’re gonna tell me that costs too much as well and only exists thanks to the state of Washington... my fear is that while the current flex dining model is cutting costs, and thus, losses, it’s driving away passengers in droves and significantly decreasing the overall profitability of the train. I hope Anderson is nervous for the upcoming hearing where he’ll have to tell Congress whether or not the changes to food service have helped or not.


----------



## TinCan782

pennyk said:


> The new Viewliner dining cars, as of now, are still used on the Silver Meteor and the Crescent and are referred to as "Sleeper Lounges."


And the Lake Shore Limited


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

I doubt he’s nervous, past actions show he has no issues being deceitful.



ShiningTimeStL said:


> Cascades “Bistro” service then, unless you’re gonna tell me that costs too much as well and only exists thanks to the state of Washington... my fear is that while the current flex dining model is cutting costs, and thus, losses, it’s driving away passengers in droves and significantly decreasing the overall profitability of the train. I hope Anderson is nervous for the upcoming hearing where he’ll have to tell Congress whether or not the changes to food service have helped or not.


----------



## MARC Rider

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Cascades “Bistro” service then, unless you’re gonna tell me that costs too much as well and only exists thanks to the state of Washington... my fear is that while the current flex dining model is cutting costs, and thus, losses, *it’s driving away passengers in droves* and significantly decreasing the overall profitability of the train. I hope Anderson is nervous for the upcoming hearing where he’ll have to tell Congress whether or not the changes to food service have helped or not.



It might be driving away some passengers, but whether it's in "_*droves*_" would require some more investigation. 

If I were a congressperson deciding about whether financial support of the National Network was a good use to taxpayer dollars (which I think it is), I would consider the following:


The vast majority of people riding the National Network ride coach, and tend to ride shorter trips rather than end-to-end.
That said, the revenue generated by the sleeping car passengers, who do tend to ride (on the average) for longer distances a a significantly disproportionate share of the total revenue generated by the service. Thus, Amtrak can make use of sleeping car revenue to cross-subsidize the coach service (especially that serving numerous rural towns in numerous rural states), which is the main mobility benefit to the general public claimed by proponents of the National Network and the reason why it deserves to be supported by taxpayer funds even if it's not profitable overall. 
The main question is whether the cost of providing sleeping car service is such that a great deal of that extra revenue generated by sleeping car passengers is simply sucked up by the costs of providing sleeping car service, which includes the costs of the full meal service. 
It's possible that cost cutting like flex dining may drive away some sleeper passengers, and that the reduction of demand might cause sleepers to be sold at lower fares than before, thus reducing revenue. That, indeed, may be true, but the net revenue that can be applied to cross-subsidize the service in general, may be similar to what it was when there were the additional costs of full dining service. Thus, the train itself continues get the revenue it needs, while the food services losses are reduced to meet the congressional mandate, which, so far, doesn't seem like it will be removed any time soon.
Also, consider Mr. Anderson's experience in the airline industry: The industry has become highly profitable after they cut passenger service amenities to the bone, and most airline passengers seem to accept the new order. Oh, they complain, but it's not like they have any other choice. If they want to get places in what is considered reasonable time, they have to fly. The only alternative is not to travel or drive their own car. The same with most sleeper passengers on long-distance passenger trains. They travel long distances by train because they like the experience, not because it's a practical way to travel. (That's different from most of the coach passengers, who ride the short distances on the long distance trains and find that it is practical transportation, or at least it is when Amtrak can keep to its schedule.) Nobody else runs long-distance passenger trains in the US, and it's not likely that anybody will be doing so any time soon. Thus, sleeping car passengers either have to put up with what Amtrak dishes out or not travel long distances by train.
Mr. Anderson's gamble is that he can reduce the service amenities and reduce costs without driving so many people away that net revenues are significantly decreased to a point that he has to go the Congress and ask for a significantly larger subsidy than what was needed before when the service for sleeping car passengers was better. What I'm reading here and in the material from the RPA is that he might no be dealing with accurate cost figures and that these service cuts are not going to save him the money he thinks they are.

Of course, if I were a Member of Congress, someone on my staff would be doing all this thinking. These days, my mind would be more occupied by stuff like considering a war with Iran, the future of our democracy, or how we're going to handle the climate apocalypse. A minor piece of pork barrel spending like the Amtrak appropriation for the National Network might be fairly low on the priority list. I suppose I would support funding for the national network as part of a deal with Members and Senators from rural states to ensure their support for larger funding for improved corridor service between larger cities that would have a real chance of generating significant reductions in auto miles driven, and thus greenhouse gas emissions. 

The culinary preferences of sleeping car passengers would be pretty low on my list of concerns. Anyway, if it got really bad, this could actually enhance the long distance train travel experience, as enthusiasts like us can apply our creativity to furnishing our own food and enjoy communal picnics in the sleeper lounge. Who knows, it might become fashionable to travel in sleeper without food service, and the sleepers will fill up, net revenue with skyrocket, and even Mr. Anderson will be talking about expanding the network and introducing multiple frequencies on the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited routes, and maybe even revive the Broadway Limited! We can always hope, anyway.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Ryan said:


> The Congressional mandate is to end food and beverage losses.
> 
> This plan would do nothing to cut costs (you're still paying for staff) and reduce revenue by serving few meals. Wrong direction.


 . you repeat this alot.. do you think the current solution is good?


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## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Also, consider Mr. Anderson's experience in the airline industry: The industry has become highly profitable after they cut passenger service amenities to the bone, and most airline passengers seem to accept the new order. Oh, they complain, but it's not like they have any other choice.


 Both Delta and American Airlines offers a very nice domestic first class service which includes decent meals served on real plates, with real silverware, on a real "table cloth" and with real glassware. The food is not as good as traditional dining car food, but considerably better than contemporary dining. So no... they haven't cut amenities to the bone. 

Don't forget that even coach passengers on major airlines including Southwest get free soft drinks and free snacks.


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## Amtrakfflyer

It’s going to take 18 months to 2 plus years to see real declines. Most people have no clue how bad the dining is, in fact if they read Amtrak advertising they probably think Anderson has improved dining. 

It’s not going to be until repeat riders who ride LD regularly every year or two experience contemporary dining and decide the value is not longer there and decide to fly or drive in the future.

Same with first time riders, they more then likely won’t be repeat riders to the extent first time riders were in the past. You can only goose the stats for a year or two before the truth establishes itself.


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## jis

This is actually going to be a great experiment. If the rail riders are ones that primarily ride trains as a matter of choice, with other available alternatives, and moreover, if the choice is based significantly on food service then there will be a great drop in ridership. OTOH, if either their choice of riding is not dependent on food service quality, or they ride not out of choice but out of necessity, then there will be relatively little effect on ridership, and ridership will probably grow in proportion to growth in available seats and population growth in catchment areas. And yes, two years is probably the right time horizon for the experiment.

The airlines carried out this experiment over several years, and almost all dire predictions about apocalypse did not come to pass. And then of late they have decided that they want to selectively improve the experience of those willing to pay quit a bit more while keeping all options open for the large proportion of bottom feeders of fares.


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## Rail Freak

MARC Rider said:


> It might be driving away some passengers, but whether it's in "_*droves*_" would require some more investigation.
> 
> If I were a congressperson deciding about whether financial support of the National Network was a good use to taxpayer dollars (which I think it is), I would consider the following:
> 
> 
> The vast majority of people riding the National Network ride coach, and tend to ride shorter trips rather than end-to-end.
> That said, the revenue generated by the sleeping car passengers, who do tend to ride (on the average) for longer distances a a significantly disproportionate share of the total revenue generated by the service. Thus, Amtrak can make use of sleeping car revenue to cross-subsidize the coach service (especially that serving numerous rural towns in numerous rural states), which is the main mobility benefit to the general public claimed by proponents of the National Network and the reason why it deserves to be supported by taxpayer funds even if it's not profitable overall.
> The main question is whether the cost of providing sleeping car service is such that a great deal of that extra revenue generated by sleeping car passengers is simply sucked up by the costs of providing sleeping car service, which includes the costs of the full meal service.
> It's possible that cost cutting like flex dining may drive away some sleeper passengers, and that the reduction of demand might cause sleepers to be sold at lower fares than before, thus reducing revenue. That, indeed, may be true, but the net revenue that can be applied to cross-subsidize the service in general, may be similar to what it was when there were the additional costs of full dining service. Thus, the train itself continues get the revenue it needs, while the food services losses are reduced to meet the congressional mandate, which, so far, doesn't seem like it will be removed any time soon.
> Also, consider Mr. Anderson's experience in the airline industry: The industry has become highly profitable after they cut passenger service amenities to the bone, and most airline passengers seem to accept the new order. Oh, they complain, but it's not like they have any other choice. If they want to get places in what is considered reasonable time, they have to fly. The only alternative is not to travel or drive their own car. The same with most sleeper passengers on long-distance passenger trains. They travel long distances by train because they like the experience, not because it's a practical way to travel. (That's different from most of the coach passengers, who ride the short distances on the long distance trains and find that it is practical transportation, or at least it is when Amtrak can keep to its schedule.) Nobody else runs long-distance passenger trains in the US, and it's not likely that anybody will be doing so any time soon. Thus, sleeping car passengers either have to put up with what Amtrak dishes out or not travel long distances by train.
> Mr. Anderson's gamble is that he can reduce the service amenities and reduce costs without driving so many people away that net revenues are significantly decreased to a point that he has to go the Congress and ask for a significantly larger subsidy than what was needed before when the service for sleeping car passengers was better. What I'm reading here and in the material from the RPA is that he might no be dealing with accurate cost figures and that these service cuts are not going to save him the money he thinks they are.
> 
> Of course, if I were a Member of Congress, someone on my staff would be doing all this thinking. These days, my mind would be more occupied by stuff like considering a war with Iran, the future of our democracy, or how we're going to handle the climate apocalypse. A minor piece of pork barrel spending like the Amtrak appropriation for the National Network might be fairly low on the priority list. I suppose I would support funding for the national network as part of a deal with Members and Senators from rural states to ensure their support for larger funding for improved corridor service between larger cities that would have a real chance of generating significant reductions in auto miles driven, and thus greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> The culinary preferences of sleeping car passengers would be pretty low on my list of concerns. Anyway, if it got really bad, this could actually enhance the long distance train travel experience, as enthusiasts like us can apply our creativity to furnishing our own food and enjoy communal picnics in the sleeper lounge. Who knows, it might become fashionable to travel in sleeper without food service, and the sleepers will fill up, net revenue with skyrocket, and even Mr. Anderson will be talking about expanding the network and introducing multiple frequencies on the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited routes, and maybe even revive the Broadway Limited! We can always hope, anyway.


Sativa or Indica? LOL!


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Both Delta and American Airlines offers a very nice domestic first class service which includes decent meals served on real plates, with real silverware, on a real "table cloth" and with real glassware. The food is not as good as traditional dining car food, but considerably better than contemporary dining. So no... they haven't cut amenities to the bone.



And I'll be first class passengers have checked bags included in the fare. And that they can board first and deplane first. Etc etc. Who cares about what food is served and whether it is served on "real plates" with "real silverware" on a "real tablecloth?" The only point of first class that I can see is more personal space (larger seats) and the fact that you don't have to rub shoulders with the riff-raff. Anyway, first class service has very little to do with the realities of travel for the vast majority of airline passengers. 

Moreover first class airline service is a totally irrelevant comparison to sleeper service on the National Network Amtrak trains. Delta and American don't come to Congress every year asking for a taxpayer-funded subsidy for their company. And having priced first class fares on domestic flights, I should hope that First class revenue cross-subsidizes the total service. But whether it does and whether it's worth it is between the executives and and the stockholders of the airline companies. The only excuse for having premium service on a taxpayer-subsidized Amtrak train is that the additional revenue from the premium service can cross-subsidize the part of the service that provides the essential transportation that deserves taxpayer support. 

As jis says, we'll see in 2 years whether the service downgrades screw the *net* revenue picture. Just remember that the taxpayers don't fund passenger rail to provide premium service to a very small percentage of the total rail passengers. Premium service is tolerated if it can generate extra revenue to cross subsidize the essential service, otherwise, don't expect politicians to demand it or executives to think it's important to have. 



> Don't forget that even coach passengers on major airlines including Southwest get free soft drinks and free snacks.



Wonderful. When I'm bouncing around in turbulence, the last thing I care about is a free soft drink and a minuscule bag of pretzels. I want to land safely and have the upset in my tummy go away.


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## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Wonderful. When I'm bouncing around in turbulence, the last thing I care about is a free soft drink and a minuscule bag of pretzels. I want to land safely and have the upset in my tummy go away.





MARC Rider said:


> The only excuse for having premium service on a taxpayer-subsidized Amtrak train is that the additional revenue from the premium service can cross-subsidize the part of the service that provides the essential transportation that deserves taxpayer support.



So you don't like flying and you don't think sleeping cars should exist on amtrak? How do you like to travel?

I find it hilarious that this board is filled with members who only take sleeping cars when they travel but somehow domestic first class should never be considered as a mode of travel since the majority of air line travelers take coach. The majority of rail travelers take coach as well! 

Domestic first class is pretty cheap as long as you fly when the airlines want you to fly.


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## Qapla

I don't fly ... I think I might have mentioned that before - so, I don't really care how trains compare to planes ... they are two totally different forms of travel.

With that in mind ... I have never taken a sleeper ....... I have, so far, only ridden coach.

Then again, I do not need to compare what I want when I ride the train to any other form of travel. I want train travel to be what it is ..... train travel. If I want total freedom to stop when I want or turn when I want or to change my travel plans on a moments notice - I'll drive my car and put up with the problems of highway travel. If I wanted to be somewhere fast and didn't have my irrational fear of heights ... I'd probably fly.

But, since I don't want to be stuck staring out the windshield the entire trip trying to stay awake and watchful so I don't get killed in a traffic accident and I am not going to fly - I want trains to keep running long and short distance. I like the convenience and comfort. If some services must be cut for that to happen .... I guess I can deal wit it - but, I honestly do not think that Amtrak should be shortchanged in it's needed budget when the Gov't wastes so much money on things much less beneficial than mass transit - instead of decreasing services - just give Amtrak the money they need and cut out some of the truly ridiculous pork spending.


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## jebr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I find it hilarious that this board is filled with members who only take sleeping cars when they travel but somehow domestic first class should never be considered as a mode of travel since the majority of air line travelers take coach. The majority of rail travelers take coach as well!



Sure, but most people on the train are taking it for relatively short journeys. The comparison comes when considering longer trips and what's considered needed for that length of trip. For me, and I'll bet the majority of Americans, being able to lie flat at night is hugely important, but even a cheap seat is fine for a day trip as long as there's a bed at the end of the day.

Thus, in general, I'm going to compare airline coach to Amtrak roomettes on most trips. The cost to go coach isn't cheap enough to justify putting up with a non lie flat sleeping arrangement, and most trips I take would require an overnight when taking Amtrak. I'll gladly take Amtrak coach on a day trip, and perhaps overnight when the situation warrants. But if a flight is even in the same ballpark price wise, I'll do that over Amtrak coach overnight.


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## crescent-zephyr

As a reply and taking this back to the topic... I’ll book a sleeper for a day trip but usually I justify that with the dining car meals. For example when I took the empire builder from Chicago to St. Paul a roomette was a little over $100 extra... but $30 of that I was going to spend anyways at dinner so that’s like an $80 surcharge vs. $110 which makes it much easier to justify. Factor in the bottled water and coffee and now I’m closer to $70 vs. $110. 

With the new contemporary dining that changes the math considerably. My dinner is now comparable to $10 worth of snacks from the cafe that I would enjoy just as much. So add in the free drinks and we are talking $20 total in “value.” On an overnight sure I’ll pay for the bed, but on a day trip it gets a bit more iffy.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Same logic when the Starlight had the Parlour car. I along with MANY others happily paid the $200 extra round trip for the day trip, 6 times a year or so from LAX to SJC, sometimes just LAX to SBA for $60 extra to ride in the Parlour car comfort. Amenities and meals do matter and if marketed correctly have a place on Amtrak trains.

If the Starlight still had a Parlour car or first class lounge I would have allowed a day upgrade to access the car from business class for a $25 or $50 fee if I was in charge of marketing. Most people would still get a roomette for long day trips but it would poach some extra revenue.

Right now Amtrak has zero thinking out of the box like this and doesn’t appear to even want to try anything that would be a win win for customers and the bottom line.


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## Qapla

My wife an I are planning a trip this spring. We will be traveling overnight - but, we will only be on the train from 11 PM till 8:30 AM the next morning. We will be on the Silver Star - and it does not offer food with with the sleeper. (We can't take the SM since it does not go to our destination)

Here's the part that we have a hard time with ...

There are two separate issues:

A Roomette will cost $317 for the two of us while traveling coach will be $114 - so, the overall difference in the cost is $203.
The pricing breakdown for this fare is not consistent/correct
1) For a $200 difference in the price I would expect to get more than a "lie-flat" bed and a Happy Meal. Although the Roomette has two seats and two beds (not at the same time) it does not have ample space to warrant the $200 dollar a night price.

2) If you look up the price and get the breakdown, according to Amtrak, the Roomette is only costing $152 because the tickets are $82.80 each. However, if you divide the Saver Fare by two, the tickets are only $57 each - even the Value Fare tickets are only 63.90 each ... so, where does this $82 dollar price come from. As far as we are concerned, the Roomette will cost $203 not $152 - since the coach seats will only cost us $114. After all, since we would sit in the same seats and have the same provisions with the Saver Fare as the Value - why would we buy the Value.

Now, if the Roomette could be priced at $75 for such a short ride - we would consider it .... but, it simply is not worth $200+ just to have 2 beds in a cramped cubicle overnight when we will not have anything to look at out the "private window" (it'll be dark outside) and no food is even being offered.

BTW - The prices for our trip are based on traveling as a Passenger with Disabilities and Companion ... if it were at "full price" the difference in the cost of a Saver Fare and the Roomette would be $222


So, in order to make a sleeper worth the additional cost - offering the dismal flex-dining does not help with the price disparity between coach and sleeper


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## rrdude

Qapla said:


> My wife an I are planning a trip this spring. We will be traveling overnight - but, we will only be on the train from 11 PM till 8:30 AM the next morning. We will be on the Silver Star - and it does not offer food with with the sleeper. (We can't take the SM since it does not go to our destination)
> 
> Here's the part that we have a hard time with ...
> 
> There are two separate issues:
> 
> A Roomette will cost $317 for the two of us while traveling coach will be $114 - so, the overall difference in the cost is $203.
> The pricing breakdown for this fare is not consistent/correct
> 1) For a $200 difference in the price I would expect to get more than a "lie-flat" bed and a Happy Meal. Although the Roomette has two seats and two beds (not at the same time) it does not have ample space to warrant the $200 dollar a night price.
> 
> 2) If you look up the price and get the breakdown, according to Amtrak, the Roomette is only costing $152 because the tickets are $82.80 each. However, if you divide the Saver Fare by two, the tickets are only $57 each - even the Value Fare tickets are only 63.90 each ... so, where does this $82 dollar price come from. As far as we are concerned, the Roomette will cost $203 not $152 - since the coach seats will only cost us $114. After all, since we would sit in the same seats and have the same provisions with the Saver Fare as the Value - why would we buy the Value.
> 
> Now, if the Roomette could be priced at $75 for such a short ride - we would consider it .... but, it simply is not worth $200+ just to have 2 beds in a cramped cubicle overnight when we will not have anything to look at out the "private window" (it'll be dark outside) and no food is even being offered.
> 
> BTW - The prices for our trip are based on traveling as a Passenger with Disabilities and Companion ... if it were at "full price" the difference in the cost of a Saver Fare and the Roomette would be $222
> 
> 
> So, in order to make a sleeper worth the additional cost - offering the dismal flex-dining does not help with the price disparity between coach and sleeper




It's a matter of COMFORT, for *you.* Personally, I chose *not* to sleep overnight in coach. (Noise, light, *not* flat bed, "aromas", privacy....) I've reached the point where If I go overnight, it's *only* in a room.


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## niemi24s

Qapla said:


> There are two separate issues:
> 
> A Roomette will cost $317 for the two of us while traveling coach will be $114 - so, the overall difference in the cost is $203.
> The pricing breakdown for this fare is not consistent/correct


Your conclusion is faulty simply because you don't understand how Amtrak prices sleeping accommodations. The total fare for your particular Roomette is whatever the upcharge happens to be for a Roomette on your day of travel plus 2X the _second_ highest Coach bucket - not the Saver or Value Coach fare.

Find out how much you're actually paying extra for your Roomette by using AmSnag to create a chart like this for the SS between your points of travel and subtract the appropriate number of second bucket coach fares (like the one shown with the >, below) from the total shown by AmSnag.


F'rinstance, the upcharge for a Low bucket Roomette between MIA and NYP for one adult is $404 - $212 = $192. IMHO, only when you actually know how much extra your Roomette will cost can you make an educated assessment about its worth.

[EDIT: But after a few hours of thought, I guess your comparison is valid - your Roomette would cost that much more than going by Coach. However, while it may not be worth the extra cost to you it may be worth the extra cost for others as Rrdude just said]


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## Devil's Advocate

rrdude said:


> It's a matter of COMFORT, for *you.* Personally, I chose *not* to sleep overnight in coach. (Noise, light, *not* flat bed, "aromas", privacy....) I've reached the point where If I go overnight, it's *only* in a room.


I get where you're coming from, and it closely mirrors my own feelings, but I can still remember a time when coach travel seemed perfectly fine and sleeper travel was treated like a rare luxury. Even though I'm able to travel in sleepers exclusively now all it would take is one major legal or medical problem and I'd be back to coach or nothing. That's one reason I try not to judge or second guess those who view sleepers as unnecessary or excessively priced.


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## Rasputin

I usually like to travel by sleeper but as a family we traveled by coach from Seattle to Whitefish and return about 20 years ago, had a great time and got some decent sleep and it didn't blow our travel budget as a sleeper would have done. 

Last time I traveled by coach overnight was from El Paso to San Antonio in a full coach about 8 years ago. I could not justify the cost of a sleeper only to be bounced out of it in the wee hours at San Antonio. Had a nice cheeseburger from the café car for dinner. My seatmate was a student from Germany who sleep soundly all night. I enjoyed chatting with the passenger across the aisle. I put on my sleep mask and got some good sleep. I prefer to travel by sleeper but I would do that trip again in a flash.


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## Qapla

rrdude said:


> It's a matter of COMFORT, for *you*



It comes down to a little more than comfort - at times ... since I have no problem sleeping in coach (I need to sleep elevated anyway) COST is a factor every bit as much as "comfort" ... if I cannot afford the round trip in a sleeper and I can in coach - taking a sleeper would effectively cancel the trip. Part of the "comfort" is knowing you can afford the trip.



niemi24s said:


> Your conclusion is faulty simply because you don't understand how Amtrak prices sleeping accommodations



Toe-may-toes - toe-mah-toes ... poe-tay-toes - poe-tah-toes

I really don't care what base price "they" calculate the fare from ... 

My way of figuring the "cost" of the sleeper is no more "wrong" than their way is "right". I don't really care how they arrive at their price ... the fact is, if we ride coach our tickets cost "X", if we ride in a sleeper our tickets cost "Y" ... to find out how much we are actually paying extra for a Roomette we simply subtract the cost of our "actual" tickets from what we would pay if we took a sleeper.

Fortunately, they have just offered a "deal" so, even though the cost difference between a sleeper and a coach seat will now be $173 each way - we will be better served applying that $346 toward our accommodations at our destination so we don't have to postpone our trip for another year .... it has been 39 years since we got away together - just the two of us.

The thing is, on the Silver Star, the train we will be taking, it doesn't matter if you pay a Saver Fare, a Value Fare, a Flexible Fare or even a Sale Fare (like the one they are now offering - there are no Business Fares on the Star) you will be sitting in the exact same seat, using the exact same restrooms and have available the exact same amenities - so why not buy the cheapest fare possible if we are going to ride coach. At the moment, if we book during the sale, that would be $35.50 a seat. That is hard to argue with.

While I would like to try a sleeper - I would much rather my wife and I be able to take this trip then have to pass because we refused to ride coach ... neither of us has ever had a problem sleeping in coach.


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## JRR

Ryan said:


> The Congressional mandate is to end food and beverage losses.
> 
> This plan would do nothing to cut costs (you're still paying for staff) and reduce revenue by serving few meals. Wrong direction.



Ryan: I think you and I have talked around this before but the revenue is not reduced by serving fewer meals. All the meals have been paid for (revenue collected), when you bought the sleeper ticket. No revenue is collected when you eat the meal other than possibly additional beer, wine or liquor.

The question remains, how much of the sleeper ticket cost is being allocated to F&B revenue?


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## ShiningTimeStL

Didn’t they first implement “contemporary” dining in early 2018? We’re coming up on two years of that on the Capitol Limited and LSL very soon here... I’d be really interested to see what their figures for the past year look like.


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## lordsigma

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Didn’t they first implement “contemporary” dining in early 2018? We’re coming up on two years of that on the Capitol Limited and LSL very soon here... I’d be really interested to see what their figures for the past year look like.



It’s tricky though as the dining program has morphed several times since it started:

Version 1) all chilled meals and breakfast sugary box meal. 

Version 2) one chilled item replaced with a red wine braised short ribs option.

Version 3) menu changed to one chilled option and 1 vegetarian option and two hot options. Breakfast box replaced with continental breakfasts

Version 4) current version. Boxes replaced with reusable trays, entree items changed to all hot options.

I think we need a couple solid years after version 3 started to know the acceptance.


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## crescent-zephyr

To be fair Amtrak has been changing dining car operations for decades. I remember about 15 years ago Amtrak drastically cut dining car staff and went to “simplified dining” which meant all pre-prepared items, no China and glassware, and staggered seatings. That was the day of the “Bob Evans breakfast scramble.” 

They realized that with the staggered seatings, 1 chef could handle a few cooked to order items and they brought back scrambled eggs, steaks, etc. 

They brought back full dining on premier trains - the starlight, empire builder and the Capitol. These trains used the glassware and ceramic plates. Also around this time they had the “chef inspired” meals like the lamb shank, Mahi Mahi, crab cakes, etc. which I thought were excellent. 

About 10 years ago they announced the cross country cafe concept for the city of New Orleans and Texas Eagle. Single food service car that would offer “all day dining” with additional entrees available at specific meal times. This concept basically combined cafe car, dining car take out, and sit down dining into 1 food service car. It lasted less than a year I think until they just started using the ccc cars as traditional dining cars. 

And then the city of New Orleans was the first to try “contemporary dining” - they just didn’t call it that. But the food quality and service model (only 1 server, everything pre made and poor quality) was the same. 

So here we are....


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## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Also around this time they had the “chef inspired” meals like the lamb shank, Mahi Mahi, crab cakes, etc. which I thought were excellent.


The "chef inspired" era was the modern heyday of Amtrak dining IMO. It wasn't perfect but it was good enough that I had nothing to worry or complain about. The only thing I can remember wanting was a bit more variety for frequent travelers. Crazy to think it wasn't even that long ago, in the grand scheme of things, but it feels like ages now.


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## printman2000

How does the unlimited soft drinks work with Flexible Dining? Do you have to go to the dining car and request it each time from the LSA? Is a water bottle an option?


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## crescent-zephyr

printman2000 said:


> How does the unlimited soft drinks work with Flexible Dining? Do you have to go to the dining car and request it each time from the LSA? Is a water bottle an option?



In my experience on the meteor you could request drinks from the lsa or my sca would sometimes ask me “I’m headed to the diner to pick up some dinners can I get you anything to drink?” - she was excellent, I wouldn’t always expect that. 

The lsa in my experience either acted too busy making food, or was annoyed that I asked her to get up when she was sitting at the booth. 

Yes bottled water is an option, also sparkling water. Was lacroix but now it’s dasani sparkling water I think.


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## printman2000

crescent-zephyr said:


> In my experience on the meteor you could request drinks from the lsa or my sca would sometimes ask me “I’m headed to the diner to pick up some dinners can I get you anything to drink?” - she was excellent, I wouldn’t always expect that.
> 
> The lsa in my experience either acted too busy making food, or was annoyed that I asked her to get up when she was sitting at the booth.
> 
> Yes bottled water is an option, also sparkling water. Was lacroix but now it’s dasani sparkling water I think.


Thanks for the info. Bad crew attitude is something I have come to expect. Then when I get someone great, it is a bonus.


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## pennyk

printman2000 said:


> How does the unlimited soft drinks work with Flexible Dining? Do you have to go to the dining car and request it each time from the LSA? Is a water bottle an option?


When on the Silver Meteor and Capitol Limited I had no problems getting ice tea from the LSA between meals


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## JCTakoma

Today we made the sad decision to discontinue regular travel on long-distance trains. We’ve been taking the Crescent sleeper service for the past 4 years every year in December, sometimes more often.

In December this year, we’ll be traveling first-class air instead. Deciding factor was the dining experience. Engaging with staff and passengers in a full-service diner made Amtrak’s long distance trains special. Without that special factor, there’s simply not much there. Meanwhile, first-class air service, coupled with access to an airport lounge and TSA-Pre, is actually pretty darn nice.

Either of the following would entice us back to trains:

1. Overnight sleeper on a modern, high-speed train, with arrivals lounge/shower, at a price comparable to first-class air.

2. Elegant first-class dining plus a cocktail lounge on a modern, high-speed day train at a price comparable to first-class air.

We do have one last train trip booked in May from Seattle via Chicago to Washington, DC. We’ll give it some more thought at that time. But we’re buying the December air tickets next week, as soon as they become available. Sorry!


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## lordsigma

JCTakoma said:


> Today we made the sad decision to discontinue regular travel on long-distance trains. We’ve been taking the Crescent sleeper service for the past 4 years every year in December, sometimes more often.
> 
> In December this year, we’ll be traveling first-class air instead. Deciding factor was the dining experience. Engaging with staff and passengers in a full-service diner made Amtrak’s long distance trains special. Without that special factor, there’s simply not much there. Meanwhile, first-class air service, coupled with access to an airport lounge and TSA-Pre, is actually pretty darn nice.
> 
> Either of the following would entice us back to trains:
> 
> 1. Overnight sleeper on a modern, high-speed train, with arrivals lounge/shower, at a price comparable to first-class air.
> 
> 2. Elegant first-class dining plus a cocktail lounge on a modern, high-speed day train at a price comparable to first-class air.
> 
> We do have one last train trip booked in May from Seattle via Chicago to Washington, DC. We’ll give it some more thought at that time. But we’re buying the December air tickets next week, as soon as they become available. Sorry!


Obviously that's your prerogative if you otherwise prefer flying absent the meals and the change is definitely disappointing. However for me there is a lot more to rail travel than food. The diner is nice and I do enjoy meeting people, but I never found the food spectacular I guess found it acceptable so for me that isn't going to change the experience much on a single night trip. (I am 33 and have only traveling by train for a few years so I didn't experience the good days of dining cars.) Obviously such a cut to a two night train would be a different story. I'll still go to the diner and try to meet some folks using it as a lounge. I enjoy watching the world go by both at day and night out my sleeper window - to me travel by train is more of an adventure while I have always detested flying, but it's obviously a personal preference thing. I actually enjoy traveling by train - for me flying is just something that has to be put up with to get somewhere quickly so unless I absolutely need to get there quick it's always an easy choice. Obviously there's a lot of people that love to fly so I'm by no means the norm.

If your reasoning is the flex dining there isn't any reason to avoid the Auto Train or the western trains where the status quo remains.


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## drfonta

lordsigma said:


> Obviously that's your prerogative if you otherwise prefer flying absent the meals and the change is definitely disappointing. However for me there is a lot more to rail travel than food. The diner is nice and I do enjoy meeting people, but I never found the food spectacular I guess found it acceptable so for me that isn't going to change the experience much on a single night trip. (I am 33 and have only traveling by train for a few years so I didn't experience the good days of dining cars.) Obviously such a cut to a two night train would be a different story. I'll still go to the diner and try to meet some folks using it as a lounge. I enjoy watching the world go by both at day and night out my sleeper window - to me travel by train is more of an adventure while I have always detested flying, but it's obviously a personal preference thing. I actually enjoy traveling by train - for me flying is just something that has to be put up with to get somewhere quickly so unless I absolutely need to get there quick it's always an easy choice. Obviously there's a lot of people that love to fly so I'm by no means the norm.
> 
> If your reasoning is the flex dining there isn't any reason to avoid the Auto Train or the western trains where the status quo remains.



I agree. I fly quite a bit to and from Asia, and I try to do business as much as possible and love the lounge options etc. These are 12-14 hour trips so that's somewhat comparable. Now, domestic first class is another animal completely (unless you happen to get a route that offers lie flat seating etc). I wouldn't even think to compare LD trains vs domestic FC. Two different animals with advantages to each. I'm doing my upcoming trip as a matter of enjoyment/leisure. Could definitely do round trip NY-FL first class for the price of a one way roomette but again this is for "fun of it" honestly. The move to flex dining does make a difference though, and I'll certainly see what it's like, but it's not enough of show stopper for me anyway. And I do look forward to trying out the 2 nighter routes in the future. Anyway, just my .02.


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## Rasputin

JCTakoma said:


> Today we made the sad decision to discontinue regular travel on long-distance trains. We’ve been taking the Crescent sleeper service for the past 4 years every year in December, sometimes more often.



Last May as sleeping car passengers on the Crescent between DC and New Orleans we had delicious steak dinners both evenings as well as a nice breakfast and lunch. At one stop I enjoyed chatting with the chef or cook or whatever they are called (I guess they are now called unemployed). 

In May 2021 we expect to be back in New Orleans but after experiencing the contempt dining on the Lake Shore last May we have no plans to return from New Orleans on the Crescent and will probably fly back. (I very much enjoy the scenery in western Massachusetts and New York on the westbound Lake Shore.)

We enjoy travelling on the western trains and will continue to do so as long as decent service continues. We will likely continue to sometimes travel on the westbound Lake Shore simply as the convenient way to connect to the western trains but I expect that we will fly back more often.

As a sleeping car passenger, the eastern Amtrak trains are no longer a good value. The Regional trains and Acela trains are well run and we will continue to travel on them as they are a good value as are the western Amtrak trains.


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## drfonta

Rasputin said:


> Last May as sleeping car passengers on the Crescent between DC and New Orleans we had delicious steak dinners both evenings as well as a nice breakfast and lunch. At one stop I enjoyed chatting with the chef or cook or whatever they are called (I guess they are now called unemployed).
> 
> In May 2021 we expect to be back in New Orleans but after experiencing the contempt dining on the Lake Shore last May we have no plans to return from New Orleans on the Crescent and will probably fly back. (I very much enjoy the scenery in western Massachusetts and New York on the westbound Lake Shore.)
> 
> We enjoy travelling on the western trains and will continue to do so as long as decent service continues. We will likely continue to sometimes travel on the westbound Lake Shore simply as the convenient way to connect to the western trains but I expect that we will fly back more often.
> 
> As a sleeping car passenger, the eastern Amtrak trains are no longer a good value. The Regional trains and Acela trains are well run and we will continue to travel on them as they are a good value as are the western Amtrak trains.



Are ANY of the long distance trains "good value?" for sleeping car passengers?


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## Amtrakfflyer

Unfortunately that’s exactly what management wants people to do.


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## Rasputin

drfonta said:


> Are ANY of the long distance trains "good value?" for sleeping car passengers?


In my opinion all of the Amtrak trains west of the Mississippi are good value for sleeping car passengers and I have travelled on them at least once each year for the past ten years or so.

The Crescent used to be good value and I have enjoyed trips on that train. Due to its high sleeping car prices I wouldn't say the Lake Shore has been good value but until recently it has at least been tolerable.

This of course is quite subjective so I encourage people to try these trains out for themselves and come to their own conclusion.


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## drfonta

Rasputin said:


> In my opinion all of the Amtrak trains west of the Mississippi are good value for sleeping car passengers and I have travelled on them at least once each year for the past ten years or so.
> 
> The Crescent used to be good value and I have enjoyed trips on that train. Due to its high sleeping car prices I wouldn't say the Lake Shore has been good value but until recently it has at least been tolerable.
> 
> This of course is quite subjective so I encourage people to try these trains out for themselves and come to their own conclusion.



My own conclusion is I don't take LD trains for "good value". I take them for the pleasure of rail travel. It would be MUCH more value to simply fly. Losing the traditional dining on the East coast sucks, but the price was already way over anything I could get flying first class.


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## Rasputin

drfonta said:


> My own conclusion is I don't take LD trains for "good value". I take them for the pleasure of rail travel. It would be MUCH more value to simply fly. Losing the traditional dining on the East coast sucks, but the price was already way over anything I could get flying first class.


I don't consider flying first class to be a necessary aspect of life.


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## drfonta

Rasputin said:


> I don't consider flying first class to be a necessary aspect of life.


Ok, well then even better value flying economy. If one is looking for "good value" traveling on Amtrak in a sleeping car, then one will be sorely disappointed, regardless of dining service. Much cheaper and faster to simply fly...


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## Rasputin

drfonta said:


> Ok, well then even better value flying economy. If one is looking for "good value" traveling on Amtrak in a sleeping car, then one will be sorely disappointed, regardless of dining service. Much cheaper and faster to simply fly...


I have never been disappointed traveling on the Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, Sunset, Empire Builder, California Zephyr by sleeping car even though I could be flying for less money. I have been disappointed as a sleeping car passenger with contempt dining on the eastbound Lake Shore and do not find the reasons to travel on that train to be compelling.


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## drfonta

Rasputin said:


> I have never been disappointed traveling on the Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, Sunset, Empire Builder, California Zephyr by sleeping car even though I could be flying for less money. I have been disappointed as a sleeping car passenger with contempt dining on the eastbound Lake Shore and do not find the reasons to travel on that train to be compelling.


Ok great. Then I don't understand your definition of "good value" then. To me the ONLY reason I travel LD by train is for the charm, accommodations, and long, slow relaxing trip, and YES for the meal service. As much as we're paying, NOT "good value" in any case. I do look forward to trying the western trains but don't expect "good value" out of them. I only expect a better dining car experience, and perhaps, better scenery.


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## Brian Battuello

Good discussion about the relative value of overnight sleepers. Everyone has to make their own judgements. I've been taking LD trains for over 55 years, and have seen just about everything. I've also taken the Canadian twice, and while it isn't perfect, it is dang close if you don't mind being late. I'll do anything to sit in a dome car. 

When Amtrak took over, I never guessed that they would somehow hold together the sleeper/diner model for almost 50 years. I enjoy train travel for all the reasons stated above, including the scenery, the relaxed pace, and whatever mostly cheerful service they can manage to provide. The dining car is/was a very nice part of it, but not the whole. The first contemporary food was pretty horrible, but I just got back from a LSL RT Boston/Chicago with a person new to Amtrak, and the food wasn't actually embarrassing. The service was basically non-existent, but the guy did the best he could and kept smiling. My friend was blown away by the roomette, he said it was finer than any first class he'd ever experienced. Not even Emirates has a door and a toilet in their FC cubies, and you can't believe what they charge for those. 

So anyway, I'll continue to ride as long as they'll let me. And thinking about a third VIA 1 ride...


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## Manny T

I don't understand "good value" to mean cheap or inexpensive.

To me "good value" means -- whatever the price point, high OR low -- what you receive is at least equal to or, in some cases, above what you pay. When you receive "good value" you can reliably set your expectations by the price.

Given sleeper prices these days -- e.g. $380 roomette, $600 bedroom on the LSL next month CHI-NYP -- not sure how receiving a $2.49 TV dinner and a bargain basement breakfast, along with unreliable service, can ever equal "good value."


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## PaTrainFan

Good value is purely subjective to every individual. Period. How many ads do you see for "affordable" BMWs and other luxury cars? Affordable to maybe 10 percent of the population. Maybe. Same applies to good value, whatever you are willing to pay and receive enjoyment and positive exp3erience from.


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## drfonta

PaTrainFan said:


> Good value is purely subjective to every individual. Period. How many ads do you see for "affordable" BMWs and other luxury cars? Affordable to maybe 10 percent of the population. Maybe. Same applies to good value, whatever you are willing to pay and receive enjoyment and positive exp3erience from.


I agree, extremely subjective. I never thought LD train bedroom fares were "good value" even with the dining car. But then again, I pay for them, enjoy them, and will keep doing so so I guess I'm getting "good value" if I'm doing it? lol. I do see the whole point of this thread is to speak to the dining car change to flex and it apparently is a big enough deal to stop people from riding LD trains. As bad as it might be, I'm not one of them. I do agree with Rasputin that the NE routes are actually "good value" and a much better option to flying...as I digress....


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## lordsigma

Not necessarily unreliable. OTP on the lake shore has been ok lately. Not perfect but not too bad. Good enough that I have been using it for short distance trips to BOS from SPG in the last year, and haven’t had any problems.


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## Thirdrail7

Has anyone run into the communal tables yet?


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## neroden

Just got back on the LSL. The "flexible dining" is still complete inedible garbage; the passengers had apparently figured this out and weren't even bothering with it. Ridership was lower than it usually is for this time of year (I travel this time of year a lot). 

Train was almost on time, though -- the court win over the OTP standards seems to have scared NS and CSX straight.


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## pennyk

Thirdrail7 said:


> Has anyone run into the communal tables yet?


What are communal tables?


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## Samsbigtrip

pennyk said:


> What are communal tables?


I was wondering the same thing! Is it where they sit singletons with strangers to fill the tables. Sound like fun to me!


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## niemi24s

Samsbigtrip said:


> I was wondering the same thing! Is it where they sit singletons with strangers to fill the tables. Sound like fun to me!


It's fun for me too - a major attraction of train travel.

However, the xenophobics here find that prospect simply abhorrent! Makes me wonder why they consider train travel in the first place.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Samsbigtrip said:


> I was wondering the same thing! Is it where they sit singletons with strangers to fill the tables. Sound like fun to me!



It is fun, and a great way to meet interesting and intelligent people from all walks of life and different states and countries.

It's exactly what we had when we had real dining cars with real meals instead of a flexiteria with garbage.


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## Samsbigtrip

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It is fun, and a great way to meet interesting and intelligent people from all walks of life and different states and countries.
> 
> [...]


I usually travel alone so that's exactly why I like trains - although this will be my first experience of train travel in the USA. Another thing to tick off my bucket list - and to see Montana!

A sleeper from Naples to Milan was roomy but hell - stuck in Rome overnight, people shouting at each on the platforms and it was unbearably hot. The scenery was lovely though


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## fdaley

Mystic River Dragon said:


> It is fun, and a great way to meet interesting and intelligent people from all walks of life and different states and countries.
> 
> It's exactly what we had when we had real dining cars with real meals instead of a flexiteria with garbage.



It was fun, and meeting other travelers over a meal was one of the great pleasures of long-distance train travel. But in my four experiences on Amtrak's eastern trains since real dining service ended, I have not seen any strangers being seated together. 

In my one experience traveling alone, returning from New York to Albany on a Sunday afternoon, a roomette on the Lake Shore was only $1 more than business class on the Ethan Allen, so I took the roomette. When I went to the diner, all of the tables on the river side were occupied by parties of two. No one offered me a seat, so I sat on the land side till my meal was nuked, and then, since I had room on the river side, I took the food back to my room.

I don't understand why Amtrak would want to wreck the experience that most distinguished long-distance trains from other modes of travel, but that's what they've done.


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## bratkinson

fdaley said:


> I don't understand why Amtrak would want to wreck the experience that most distinguished long-distance trains from other modes of travel, but that's what they've done.



The apparent goal of Anderson et al is to discourage LD travel, plain and simple. But it goes further than that in my opinion. Drive away LD passengers first, Congress will have no choice but to give the axe to LD funding of most trains. 

Then...

Replace a couple of the axed trains or even a still existing LD train with an 'experiential' train akin to VIAs' Prestige Class on the Canadian...and charge an arm and a leg for it, too. And presto chango....the train is wildly profitable! From what I've read, the Canadian is profitable and sold out far in advance...especially with its 2.5 round trips per week (or whatever the reduced schedule is). The Rocky Mountaineer is another always sold-out 'experiential' train. 

There is a market for it that the likes of the American Orient Express tried to capture but failed. Perhaps it was due to the exorbitant prices they had coupled with a too-frequent schedule. Or maybe it was simply poor timing that the 2008 recession wiped out the market for them.

From an outsiders' perspective, it's simply wait and see what Anderson comes up with to make all trains on Amtrak 'profitable'. Given time, I have little doubt he will accomplish his goals.


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## crescent-zephyr

bratkinson said:


> From what I've read, the Canadian is profitable and sold out far in advance...especially with its 2.5 round trips per week (or whatever the reduced schedule is). The Rocky Mountaineer is another always sold-out 'experiential' train.
> 
> There is a market for it that the likes of the American Orient Express tried to capture but failed. Perhaps it was due to the exorbitant prices they had coupled with a too-frequent schedule. Or maybe it was simply poor timing that the 2008 recession wiped out the market for them.



I don't think the Canadian is profitable and I know that VIA rail as a whole is not. 

American Orient Express was profitable at a time... their demise is a long complicated story.


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## Siegmund

Samsbigtrip said:


> I was wondering the same thing! Is it where they sit singletons with strangers to fill the tables. Sound like fun to me!



It has always been done, and is still done, on the full-service diners out west. The Empire Builder in winter takes this to its logical (or illogical) extreme: they will crowd 16 people into 4 tables at one end of the diner -- and have two or three seatings so that all 30 or 40 people who want to eat get accommodated -- and avoid messing up the place settings and paper "tablecloths" on the other 14 tables.


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## crescent-zephyr

Siegmund said:


> It has always been done, and is still done, on the full-service diners out west. The Empire Builder in winter takes this to its logical (or illogical) extreme: they will crowd 16 people into 4 tables at one end of the diner -- and have two or three seatings so that all 30 or 40 people who want to eat get accommodated -- and avoid messing up the place settings and paper "tablecloths" on the other 14 tables.



I enjoy eating with other passengers, but I wish they would seat solo passengers alone on 1 side of the booth when the room allows. It can be awkward sitting that close to a stranger, especially if they sit in such a way that you have very little room. Obviously if the diner is going to be full, it’s understandable.

For what it’s worth, even Pullman rail journeys used this practice, so it’s just something that trains do.


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## Devil's Advocate

bratkinson said:


> There is a market for it that the likes of the American Orient Express tried to capture but failed. Perhaps it was due to the exorbitant prices they had coupled with a too-frequent schedule. Or maybe it was simply poor timing that the 2008 recession wiped out the market for them.


Luxurious or not, I doubt any long distance train can profitably survive in a financial market where the wall street investor class feeds us through a boom-bust meat grinder every ten years or so. The recession of 2008 not only wiped out aspirational blue collar travelers, but also the basic business credit market. We're almost due for yet another crash with no rainy day fund and trillions of dollars in debt load. The Fed can only prop us up for so long before other forces will begin to exceed their influence.


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## Qapla

Yes, but, according to management/annalists at Amtrak - the Millennials do not like/want to sit with others ... and since they are the ones buying tickets and riding trains, those few of us from the older generation must change


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## Rail Freak

A ***** Gettin Old!!! LOL


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## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> Yes, but, according to management/annalists at Amtrak - the Millennials do not like/want to sit with others ... and since they are the ones buying tickets and riding trains, those few of us from the older generation must change



That part I agree with.... in a perfect world you would have the option of traditional sit down service or a counter service option but all featuring food that is prepared in a full kitchen. I pretty much just described the concept for the original cross country cafe . 

But I can see the desire to let people sit at tables and use them more like modern counter service / coffee shop style places like a Panera bread or something. I see pros and cons of both types of service. 

I only see cons in eliminating the chef and minimizing the menu.


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## me_little_me

neroden said:


> Just got back on the LSL.
> 
> Train was almost on time, though -- the court win over the OTP standards seems to have scared NS and CSX straight.


Not on the Crescent!


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## Samsbigtrip

I will be travelling on the Empire Builder from Seattle to Chicago in May - ticking "crossing the USA by train" off my bucket list and in light of this thread I am wondering if I should abandon all hope of getting a decent meal (I have a roomette) and take rations with me!
I understand there is a very good deli open on Sundays around the corner from King Street Station so I might need to stock up there.
Any suggestions would be most welcome!


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## erierail

On time performance for Amtrak is driven by two factors. The first, is the level of freight traffic on the host railroad. Currently freight traffic, accross all segments are down nearly 10 percent. Between the bottom falling out of the coal business, tariffs impacting intermodal, agricultural and steel production segments, the class one railroads are hurting. 
Most of the class ones have adopted " precision railroading, which reduces train counts by combining trains, with freight trains going from 100 plus cars to 150 plus cars. While looking good on paper, and on the balance sheets, they create operational issues which creates bottlenecks. With that said last week, train 30 was an hour and 45 minutes late into Cleveland, causing 29 to be 15 minutes late. We lost an additional 30 minutes because csx dispatchers managed to put us in the hole for every East bound freight. CSX was never a freind of Amtrak from a dispatch point of view, and given a chance this will not change.
The other, is maintenance of way is shut down till spring. once track work resumes, this unavoidable slow down will begin again. The variable is, who will get track first, the host railroad with a never ending number of opposing freight trains or one passenger bearing Amtrak train. I think we all know the answer.

In regards to dining car service, the diner is dead, the new reality is the food service being offered presently. Hopefully Amtrak will tweak it to make it bearable. My perception is it could be made better by the on board crew providing better service and perhaps additional staffing. Dinner selection's we're ok, the break fast was awefull.


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## JohnW

neroden said:


> Just got back on the LSL. The "flexible dining" is still complete inedible garbage; the passengers had apparently figured this out and weren't even bothering with it. Ridership was lower than it usually is for this time of year (I travel this time of year a lot).
> 
> Train was almost on time, though -- the court win over the OTP standards seems to have scared NS and CSX straight.



I agree 100%, Just rode the Cardinal from CHI to NYP. 2 dinners and 1 lunch, all terrible.


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## pekcolt

Samsbigtrip said:


> I will be travelling on the Empire Builder from Seattle to Chicago in May - ticking "crossing the USA by train" off my bucket list and in light of this thread I am wondering if I should abandon all hope of getting a decent meal (I have a roomette) and take rations with me!
> I understand there is a very good deli open on Sundays around the corner from King Street Station so I might need to stock up there.
> Any suggestions would be most welcome!


You will LOVE it! At least I did. The scenery is incredible. in may they will have an NPS volunteer to give commentary about the trip. That’s in the viewing car. The food is good (no. You don’t need to bring food!!!) and it’s fun to meet others during meals as you watch the remarkable views. Now the food is not 5* dining, but it’s very good, considering the logistics involved. And plenty of choices for a two day trip. Steak, burgers, salmon, just some of the choices. Oh, I even had steamed mussels on the Southwest Chief. Enjoy your trip!


Samsbigtrip said:


> I will be travelling on the Empire Builder from Seattle to Chicago in May - ticking "crossing the USA by train" off my bucket list and in light of this thread I am wondering if I should abandon all hope of getting a decent meal (I have a roomette) and take rations with me!
> I understand there is a very good deli open on Sundays around the corner from King Street Station so I might need to stock up there.
> Any suggestions would be most welcome!


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## JoeBas

bratkinson said:


> There is a market for it that the likes of the American Orient Express tried to capture but failed. Perhaps it was due to the exorbitant prices they had coupled with a too-frequent schedule. Or maybe it was simply poor timing that the 2008 recession wiped out the market for them.



Let's also remember that the bottom was cut out of their market by, ironically, Amtrak still offering long distance train travel at much lower (relatively speaking) rates. So people who just needed their "Train fix" but were more budget-conscious still had a viable alternative.

Once Amtrak LD is whacked, AOE type service becomes a captive audience.


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## Barb Stout

Samsbigtrip said:


> I will be travelling on the Empire Builder from Seattle to Chicago in May - ticking "crossing the USA by train" off my bucket list and in light of this thread I am wondering if I should abandon all hope of getting a decent meal (I have a roomette) and take rations with me!
> I understand there is a very good deli open on Sundays around the corner from King Street Station so I might need to stock up there.
> Any suggestions would be most welcome!


The people complaining about the food are the ones that use the trains east of the Mississippi River. Although Chicago is east of the Mississippi River, The Empire Builder operates primarily west of it, so is a western train. The western trains still have the traditional dining. The eastern trains used to have traditional dining, but recently changed to a menu with a lot less options and got rid of the onboard chef. Many people don't like the taste of the food on the eastern trains either. I'm not among them as I am not a foodie. However, because you're taking a western train, you are fine and don't need to worry about the food unless you expect hundreds of items on the menu. Since you have already paid for the meals by getting a roomette, don't bring a bunch of excess food onboard unless you have severely diet restrictions or just have a must-have certain type of snack jones.


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## Asher

Bring some wine, you'll be fine.


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## RichieRich

bratkinson said:


> There is a market for it that the likes of the American Orient Express tried to capture but failed.


Wow...that brings back some memories. I used to take it from DC to Chicago. It was pulled by Amtrak. People would dress for dinner back then.


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## fdaley

erierail said:


> In regards to dining car service, the diner is dead, the new reality is the food service being offered presently. Hopefully Amtrak will tweak it to make it bearable. My perception is it could be made better by the on board crew providing better service and perhaps additional staffing. Dinner selection's we're ok, the break fast was awefull.



The reality for a fair number of us is that if the diner is dead, these trains are basically dead in terms of our willingness to ride them. We used to take the Lake Shore on the first leg of a family trip to California most winters, but this year we didn't go. Flexi-faux dining is why. There is no way I would pay $700 for us to take a bedroom on the Lake Shore with the current horrible food offerings. There might be something short of restoration of traditional dining that would be satisfactory, but it would have to be way better than what's offered now for me to consider it.


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## Palmland

I just sampled cafe food on the Palmetto. My chicken and bacon wrap wasn’t bad (just don’t read the ingredients and nutritional labels). I don’t see why Amtrak can’t offer this to sleeper passengers. I would much prefer that for lunch rather than the flex menu, especially since you would see the same thing again for dinner.


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## fdaley

Samsbigtrip said:


> I will be travelling on the Empire Builder from Seattle to Chicago in May - ticking "crossing the USA by train" off my bucket list and in light of this thread I am wondering if I should abandon all hope of getting a decent meal (I have a roomette) and take rations with me!
> I understand there is a very good deli open on Sundays around the corner from King Street Station so I might need to stock up there.
> Any suggestions would be most welcome!



The Empire Builder still has the traditional dining service, so you'll be fine. It's maybe not as great as it once was, but the food on that train is still far superior to anything served east of Chicago. Enjoy your trip, and get up early the first morning so you can see Glacier Park.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Barb Stout said:


> Many people don't like the taste of the food on the eastern trains either. I'm not among them as I am not a foodie.



Barb, many of us who are complaining are not foodies at all. I don't cook and don't have a clue how to use anything in the kitchen except the microwave, have been in my fair share of diners and delis, and think the Potbelly's milkshake is a thing of beauty.

What we object to is spending hundreds of dollars for a sleeper and then getting meals that are essentially TV dinners in a new train car that was created to look beautiful and be elegant but now has been made to feel like a school cafeteria.


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## the_traveler

Yes. The food is not worth it on the eastern trains.

You pay good money to take a train OMA-SLC or KCY-FLG and you can have real food - even as a coach passenger. But you also pay good money to take a train WAS-ORL or ALB-CLE and you get a TV dinner if you’re in a sleeper. If you’re in coach, you’re stuck with the cafe - and you can’t even see the new diners that you (as a taxpayer) paid for except from the outside!


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## AmtrakBlue

I pay for the room & ability to sleep in a bed and ease of changing clothes. Having food included is a plus. I don’t care if it’s fine dining or what I’d normally have at home. As to the “beautiful” new diner, I still enjoyed its beauty. Also, I have shared tables with others a time or two after the start of contemporary/flex dining.


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## crescent-zephyr

AmtrakBlue said:


> I pay for the room & ability to sleep in a bed and ease of changing clothes. Having food included is a plus. I don’t care if it’s fine dining or what I’d normally have at home. As to the “beautiful” new diner, I still enjoyed its beauty. Also, I have shared tables with others a time or two after the start of contemporary/flex dining.



Fine dining? We went from Denny’s / Applebee’s quality to TV dinner quality. Do you always eat microwave dinners at home?


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## PRR 60

crescent-zephyr said:


> Fine dining? We went from Denny’s / Applebee’s quality to TV dinner quality. Do you always eat microwave dinners at home?


The flex meals are not microwaved. They are warmed in convection ovens - same as Acela First Class and aircraft galleys.


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## tricia

PRR 60 said:


> The flex meals are not microwaved. They are warmed in convection ovens - same as Acela First Class and aircraft galleys.


 
They're "microwave dinners" in the sense that that's how they'd typically be prepared in an American home. Similar in quality and kind to lower-end microwave dinners you'd buy in a supermarket.


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## pennyk

AmtrakBlue said:


> I pay for the room & ability to sleep in a bed and ease of changing clothes. Having food included is a plus. I don’t care if it’s fine dining or what I’d normally have at home. As to the “beautiful” new diner, I still enjoyed its beauty. Also, I have shared tables with others a time or two after the start of contemporary/flex dining.



I also have shared tables with others a few times after the "new" dining. Because I have food allergies, I cannot eat any of the lunch or dinner entrees, so the food has become irrelevant to me. I want to sleep in a bed and apparently (so far) I will pay whatever it takes if I want to travel. Although I am not eating the new entrees, I am drinking the "unlimited" ice tea and the one alcoholic beverage. I, too, enjoy the new diner/sleeper lounge.


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## crescent-zephyr

PRR 60 said:


> The flex meals are not microwaved. They are warmed in convection ovens - same as Acela First Class and aircraft galleys.



Are you sure? I can’t speak for Acela first class but the dinners I had were not comparable to domestic first class air. 

I thought they had to install microwaves on the diners since they already had convvection ovens?


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## AmtrakBlue

crescent-zephyr said:


> Fine dining? We went from Denny’s / Applebee’s quality to TV dinner quality. Do you always eat microwave dinners at home?



No, I usually eat microwaved hot dogs. [emoji57]


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## fdaley

Mystic River Dragon said:


> What we object to is spending hundreds of dollars for a sleeper and then getting meals that are essentially TV dinners in a new train car that was created to look beautiful and be elegant but now has been made to feel like a school cafeteria.



To me, it does rub salt in the wound that the new Viewliner diners are being used in this way. On the Lake Shore, we put up with "diner lite" service in an Amfleet lounge for years with the promise that new dining cars were on order. Then the moment the new cars arrive, Amtrak fires all but one of the crew and uses the brand-new kitchen only to hand out prepackaged meals, which in the first iteration of flexi-faux dining they didn't even bother to heat up. As first-class service, it's just an insult. And I don't agree with closing the diner to coach passengers, although at this point on the eastern trains they're really not missing much.


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## me_little_me

In my experience on my Crescent trips since the Contemptible Dining started, the diners in the diner are few and far between and even less if you count the sleeper passengers who buy cafe food to eat in the diner. Where once you had fairly full seating, you now have empty tables even though people are not sitting together. Even if the new "food" is sold for takeout or delivery to coach passengers, there's more than enough room to add more sales even if it means removing some of the bench seats. Unless Amtrak decides to make half the diner-lounges into half sitting and half lounge seating for sleeper passengers, they have lots of wasted space.
Perhaps they should change them into diner-lounge-baggage cars? Or diner-lounge-dorm cars or even diner-lounge-cab cars - diner-lounge-DMUs(?) and put them at the front of the train. Hey, anything to make Anderson happy.


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## neroden

LSL has passenger counts sharply down from two years ago. Nobody is eating in the diner for breakfast, because there is no food there, only sugar. Amtrak has thrown away revenue faster than it cut costs and increased the need for Congressional subsidy. It is not being managed like a for profit business in my professional opinion as an investor, and Anderson has given grounds to be fired for cause.

There is literally nothing for me in the dining car (I don't eat alcohol or coffee either) except hot water. The cafe car menu was just degraded so there is nothing for me there either except the hot water.

I still pay for a bed but I bring my own food. Oatmeal dissolves well in the hot water.

It is mismanagement and seems to be an attempt to decrease revenue and ridership while keeping costs high. Not satisfied with the profit which the Eastern trains were making, Gardner and Anderson were intent on driving them into losses. Criminal, really.


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## Samsbigtrip

Barb Stout said:


> [...]because you're taking a western train, you are fine and don't need to worry about the food unless you expect hundreds of items on the menu. Since you have already paid for the meals by getting a roomette, don't bring a bunch of excess food onboard unless you have severely diet restrictions or just have a must-have certain type of snack jones.



Many thanks Barb - that explains it very well and has reassured me that I don't need to stock up on food! 

This trip is so exciting and I'm really only going to the west coast to visit Jordan Fabrics, a fabulous quilting fabric shop in Grants Pass, OR. I'm bonkers, I know  I'll also be walking in the Redwoods, dipping my toe in the Pacific in California (never done it, never been there), horse-riding Western-style for the first time, and staying with friends in Norfolk, VA and in Connecticut before flying back home to the UK. 6 flights, 5 hotels, one AirBNB, and two nights on a train - all in 18 days! I have to do it now while I am still (71) young enough to do it


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## Samsbigtrip

anumberone said:


> Bring some wine, you'll be fine.


Absolutely!


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## fdaley

neroden said:


> LSL has passenger counts sharply down from two years ago. Nobody is eating in the diner for breakfast, because there is no food there, only sugar. Amtrak has thrown away revenue faster than it cut costs and increased the need for Congressional subsidy.



This is really the crucial issue. It is quite possible that the "savings" from eliminating traditional dining service on the eastern trains will be entirely offset by lost revenue from fewer people buying sleeper rooms. On the Lake Shore and Capitol, overall ridership for FY19 (the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30) was down 8 to 10 percent from FY17, the last full year with traditional dining service. Worse, the market for sleeping-car travel includes a very large pool of occasional riders, so the ridership decline is likely to continue over time as more of these people try the new service for the first time and find out how truly awful it is. My fear is that many of them won't return. So rather than saving money, "flexible dining" might actually increase the net cost of running the eastern long-distance trains. Certainly, if the goal was to chase away the most lucrative customers on these trains, it's working.


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## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> The Empire Builder still has the traditional dining service, so you'll be fine. It's maybe not as great as it once was, but the food on that train is still far superior to anything served east of Chicago. Enjoy your trip, and get up early the first morning so you can see Glacier Park.



You will enjoy the traditional dining experience when you travel the Empire Builder this May… pending no further changes for now. This means traditional table seating community style with random seating placement by the waiting staff… with other travelers. This creates that unique opportunity to connect with others. You will find that ‘everyone has a story to tell’ with the potential of interesting conversations and making friends. All that said, the quality and quantity level of this dining experience is still quite good… and actual meal preparation depends on the chef for that trip. It wise to go now while this dining opportunity is still around… and the longer days in May will allow you to enjoy the beautiful mountain scenery out of Whitefish.

More information on traditional dining is available on the Amtrak website.


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## Samsbigtrip

fdaley said:


> [...] Enjoy your trip, and get up early the first morning so you can see Glacier Park.


Thank you! I gather when to get up rather depends on how late the train is running but I intent to quiz the Conductor as to the best way to get the best views. I'm rather hoping for a north-facing roomette but I understand it's the luck of the draw and depends on how the train is configured. Did I mention before how excited I am about this trip?
Best wishes
Samantha


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## 20th Century Rider

You are right... the north side gets the best views and has the least sun glare. It is luck of the draw which side you are on. I have been on the south side several times... and have developed a mental set... to enjoy the trip just as much! You may want to spend more time in the observation car where the views are all around; and more opportunities for casual conversation with others to share the experience.


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## Samsbigtrip

tbernstein1 said:


> [...]You may want to spend more time in the observation car where the views are all around; and more opportunities for casual conversation with others to share the experience.


That's my plan! Travelling alone is a great opportunity to meet other people and hear their stories


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## crescent-zephyr

tbernstein1 said:


> You are right... the north side gets the best views and has the least sun glare. It is luck of the draw which side you are on. I have been on the south side several times... and have developed a mental set... to enjoy the trip just as much! You may want to spend more time in the observation car where the views are all around; and more opportunities for casual conversation with others to share the experience.



For Glacier Park you really want to be in the lounge car. So much scenery to see on both sides of the train! 
Also... the next morning don't miss out on the views of the Mississippi River as you leave St. Paul. In the morning, the bald eagles fish from the river. On my last trip I saw 2 dozen eagles along that stretch and I'm sure I missed just as many. They are everywhere! Watching bald eagles fish from the Mississippi while riding the Empire Builder is as American as it gets!


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## Barciur

I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider. The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service and not comparing it to the older train. People who have taken a sleeper trip in Europe before but not in America will compare the fact that there IS some sort of food service to that it not existing in Europe and the fact that the room is totally private. So I don't really think it will have as much of a ridership impact as some people think. I'm sure it will, but I think it is being a bit blown out of proportion here. After all, the most important part of the trip is the actual riding the rails in a sleeper.


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## crescent-zephyr

Barciur said:


> I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider. The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service and not comparing it to the older train. People who have taken a sleeper trip in Europe before but not in America will compare the fact that there IS some sort of food service to that it not existing in Europe and the fact that the room is totally private. So I don't really think it will have as much of a ridership impact as some people think. I'm sure it will, but I think it is being a bit blown out of proportion here. After all, the most important part of the trip is the actual riding the rails in a sleeper.



Both overnight trips in England offer food and beverage service. I think its comparable to VIA's Ocean, but I can't speak personally, just what I've seen in photos.


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## Rasputin

Samsbigtrip said:


> Thank you! I gather when to get up rather depends on how late the train is running but I intent to quiz the Conductor as to the best way to get the best views. I'm rather hoping for a north-facing roomette but I understand it's the luck of the draw and depends on how the train is configured. Did I mention before how excited I am about this trip?
> Best wishes
> Samantha


Plenty of nice scenery in the early morning on the eastbound Empire Builder esp. east of Libby (except for Flathead tunnel where it is dark and there is no scenery) so it is nice to get up early (train leaves Libby at 5:21 a.m.) and go to the lounge car and enjoy the view. Glacier National Park isn't reached until twenty miles or so after leaving Whitefish which the train will do if on schedule at 7:41 a.m. Glacier National park will be on the north side of the train and a national forest will be on the south side and the views of the national forest aren't bad either. 

As others have said get a seat in the lounge car and enjoy the views out both sides of the train. 

Hope you have a great trip.


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## Rail Freak

Nothing more to add, except "HAVE A GREAT RAIL ADVENTURE" !!!


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## neroden

Barciur said:


> I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider. The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service and not comparing it to the older train. People who have taken a sleeper trip in Europe before but not in America will compare the fact that there IS some sort of food service to that it not existing in Europe and the fact that the room is totally private. So I don't really think it will have as much of a ridership impact as some people think. I'm sure it will, but I think it is being a bit blown out of proportion here. After all, the most important part of the trip is the actual riding the rails in a sleeper.



The ridership impact is documented, and is already on the order of 10% losses between 2017 and 2019 for the LSL. (And note that the LSL already had degraded food service in 2017 and was already showing reduced ridership as a result!)


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## Qapla

Barciur said:


> The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service



Hmmm...

I have never been on a plane to have any idea of what the food is actually like. I have also never been to Europe.

So, for me, I would tend to compare the food I "expect" to be comparable to the food I would get at a "brick-and-mortar" place that has "premium prices" - like the cost of a sleeper most definately is.

I know what a Roomette and a Bedroom has to offer ...

I checked

If I book a train ride from my "home" station to NY this Friday I would have to pay $304 more for a sleeper than coach. If I were to book one in August, I would have to pay $484 more for the sleeper
If I book a train ride from my "home" station to Chicago this Friday I would have to pay $503 more for a sleeper than coach. If I were to book one in August, I would have to pay $514 more for the sleeper
The place to sleep and the privacy of the ride is not worth that much of an added expense - for me. For that much extra I would expect to get a better meal than I could get from a high-priced TV dinner from Walmart (let alone a bargain one). 

This is the same as me expecting a much better meal from Emeril's (or even Outback) than what I would get at McDonalds - for me to spend the difference in cost ... I want a value in product commensurate with the price differential ... and just having a place to sleep is not worth the extra cost if I am given a low-quality, fast-food substitute for a premium price.


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## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> I have never been on a plane to have any idea of what the food is actually like.



The food in domestic first class, imho, is much better than the food in contemporary dining, but not quite as good as the best traditional dining entrees like steak and salmon. 

By anyone’s standards the food in domestic first class is presented better. Tablecloth, silverware, cloth napkin, ceramic plates, glassware etc.


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## niemi24s

neroden said:


> The ridership impact is documented, and is already on the order of 10% losses between 2017 and 2019 for the LSL. (And note that the LSL already had degraded food service in 2017 and was already showing reduced ridership as a result!)


But according to this. . . http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf . . .ridership for the LSL (with continued degraded food service) was up 5.9% between FY2018 and FY2019!

This brings up the question - how do you really, truly, know the ridership reduction of 14% between FY2017 and FY2018 was due to the food situation?


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## PRR 60

niemi24s said:


> But according to this. . . http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf . . .ridership for the LSL (with continued degraded food service) was up 5.9% between FY2018 and FY2019!
> 
> This brings up the question - how do you really, truly, know the ridership reduction of 14% between FY2017 and FY2018 was due to the food situation?


Lake Shore Limited direct service to New York was suspended for three months in the summer of 2018 due to construction. That could explain some of the ridership drop from FY2017 to 18.


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## fdaley

niemi24s said:


> But according to this. . . http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf . . .ridership for the LSL (with continued degraded food service) was up 5.9% between FY2018 and FY2019!
> 
> This brings up the question - how do you really, truly, know the ridership reduction of 14% between FY2017 and FY2018 was due to the food situation?



The FY2018 number is not a useful number, because the Lake Shore did not run into New York City for three months that summer, which drove ridership down. Also, the switch to "contemporary" food was made just before that, two-thirds of the way through the fiscal year.

The meaningful comparison is between FY17, the last full year of traditional dining service, and FY19, the first full year after the change. For the Lake Shore, ridership in FY17 was 389,000, which was basically unchanged from the previous year's 388,000. For FY19, ridership was 357,000, a decline of 8.2 percent from FY2017.

For the Capitol, ridership went from 231,000 in FY17 to 209,000 in FY19, a decline of 9.5 percent. (Sorry, corrected the earlier version of this post, where I reversed the percentages between the two trains.)

None of the other eastern overnight trains saw as great a decline between the two years, and the Silver trains and Crescent actually saw increased traffic. City of New Orleans was down substantially, but I think maybe its FY19 number includes the period when it became the City of Jackson for an extended stretch.


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## fdaley

What would be interesting to know, but which I haven't found yet, is a breakdown of coach vs. sleeper passengers and actual revenue figures for the Lake Shore and Capitol in those years. My suspicion is that you'd find sleeper traffic is down more sharply, and that revenue is as well.


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## neroden

niemi24s said:


> But according to this. . . http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf . . .ridership for the LSL (with continued degraded food service) was up 5.9% between FY2018 and FY2019!
> 
> This brings up the question - how do you really, truly, know the ridership reduction of 14% between FY2017 and FY2018 was due to the food situation?



2018 was super depressed because **the train didn't go to New York City for three months**, during the peak season no less, and that was **widely reported in the news media**. (They did not report when it started going back to NYC, and I believe a lot of people still think it doesn't go to NYC any more.)


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## Devil's Advocate

Barciur said:


> I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider.


I think some people underestimate the expectation of paying first class airfare for a stuffy fiberglass cuboid with dingy carpets and broken controls that struggles to maintain school bus speeds. When something is wrong with an aircraft you tend to experience it for a few hours. When something is wrong with a train it can be a source of annoyance for days on end. Good food can serve as a welcome distraction while bad food can amplify the disappointment.


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## lordsigma

The other thing you would need to compare is consists and average pricing between FY17 and FY19. If they tinkered with the consists at key times which resulted in steeper average prices that can also drive down ridership. I never had the FY17 diner lite food but it never sounded particularly amazing so there could be other forces at work besides the food. Capitol is more of a direct comparison as it had traditional dining but again you’d also want to compare the consists and prices throughout the year before you could conclude it was the food.

Amtrak doesn’t care about ridership when it comes to these cuts - the key metric is did the loss number go down between FY17 and FY19. Did they lower the cost of carrying passengers on these trains. If they did, Amtrak will consider it a success and would argue those 8.6% of passengers are not worth the additional cost. Obviously whether they should view it that way is the debate we face, but that’s the bottom line of the current management. They also will wait some time with this experiment. If they see a big reactionary drop off to the cut but then a gradual recovery (especially if OTP continues to improve which on the lake shore it has dramatically lately and also if the price is reasonable.) I like amenities as much as anyone but the most important factors on a train like the Lake Shore and Capitol is reliability/OTP and reasonable prices.


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## ehbowen

Barciur said:


> I think some people overestimate the food as part of the experience, especially for a new rider. The occasional rider who has never taken the train will only have a comparison to airline food service and not comparing it to the older train. People who have taken a sleeper trip in Europe before but not in America will compare the fact that there IS some sort of food service to that it not existing in Europe and the fact that the room is totally private. So I don't really think it will have as much of a ridership impact as some people think. I'm sure it will, but I think it is being a bit blown out of proportion here. After all, the most important part of the trip is the actual riding the rails in a sleeper.



No, I don't agree at all. I keep going back to my May 2017 trip from Houston to St. Louis where, at the last minute, I was joined by a friend who was making the same trip. He racks up about 100,000 frequent flyer miles a year internationally and has taken trains in Europe, but this was his very first trip on an overnight long-distance train. When dinner (steak and shrimp) was served, he exclaimed, "The airlines don't feed you this well, even in first class!" After that trip he was more than willing to consider Amtrak as a viable alternative if the trip profile matched. I shudder to think what his response would have been if his first trip had included Contemptible Dining.


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## Bonser

neroden said:


> 2018 was super depressed because **the train didn't go to New York City for three months**, during the peak season no less, and that was **widely reported in the news media**. (They did not report when it started going back to NYC, and I believe a lot of people still think it doesn't go to NYC any more.)


Agree. Once you lose a customer it's hard to get them back.


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## Barciur

It's very possible that I am wrong. When I take a sleeper, I just think of it as a "sleeper" rather than "first class". This might be me coming from a European background of being used to shared sleepers etc. Maybe just my expectations are much lower and I underestimate the price difference factor with expectations here. So good to hear opinions from everyone about this.


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## neroden

I should note that the LSL had its food sabotaged before 2017 -- it was already facing degraded food service. And the ridership starts declining the year after the first downgrade, and declines each time the food is downgraded further, from what were really quite high numbers back in 2014 when it had *FULL* dining service including fresh-cooked eggs.

People travelling to New York or Chicago expect to get a meal at least comparable to the meals they could get in a cheap diner in NY or Chicago, and Amtrak is not supplying that any more.


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## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> The food in domestic first class, imho, is much better than the food in contemporary dining, but not quite as good as the best traditional dining entrees like steak and salmon.
> 
> By anyone’s standards the food in domestic first class is presented better. Tablecloth, silverware, cloth napkin, ceramic plates, glassware etc.


You forgot a few things.

The attendants in First Class come by multiple times to offer more drinks - including more complimentary alcohol.

The attendants in First Class are quick to clean off your table.

Whether you have alcohol or soft drinks, the attendants come by to ask if you want coffee.

The attendants in First Class never "throw" the food at you like some on Amtrak.

The attendants in first class don't get tips along with their pay.


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## niemi24s

neroden said:


> 2018 was super depressed because **the train didn't go to New York City for three months**, during the peak season no less, and that was **widely reported in the news media**. (They did not report when it started going back to NYC, and I believe a lot of people still think it doesn't go to NYC any more.)


Wait a sec.

Back in Post #1704 you stated


> ". . .the LSL already had degraded food service in 2017 and was already showing reduced ridership as a result!"


But according to data reported by the RPA, *LSL ridership actually rose 9% between FY2015 and FY2016 and little a bit more between FY2016 and FY2017* perhaps in spite of that degraded food service! So the tiny ridership increase was due to the degraded food?????

Now you're asserting the documented ridership decline between FY2017 and FY2018 was a result of the closure of NYC!!

My apologies for clicking on the [Show Ignored Content] box.


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## ehbowen

Barciur said:


> It's very possible that I am wrong. When I take a sleeper, I just think of it as a "sleeper" rather than "first class". This might be me coming from a European background of being used to shared sleepers etc. Maybe just my expectations are much lower and I underestimate the price difference factor with expectations here. So good to hear opinions from everyone about this.


But part of Amtrak's marketing efforts for sleeper service...a big part...is the included meals. For a passenger to pay several hundred dollars for a tiny cubicle, and then to find that the "included meals" are crap...that just doesn't work. Now if you unbundled meals from sleeper service and made passengers pay for them separately...you'd soon have an empty "sleeper lounge" and yet another attendant with nothing to do....


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## Qapla

I'm sure if they did remove meals from sleepers - they would not reduce the price ... and that would cause even more discontent


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## Samsbigtrip

Rasputin said:


> Hope you have a great trip.


Thank you for the great tips!


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## Rodd

Barciur said:


> It's very possible that I am wrong. When I take a sleeper, I just think of it as a "sleeper" rather than "first class". This might be me coming from a European background of being used to shared sleepers etc. Maybe just my expectations are much lower and I underestimate the price difference factor with expectations here. So good to hear opinions from everyone about this.


It is not pleasant but all we have. You are right in your assessment. I take it a lot for convenience but now we have microwaveable meals plus the worm out 25 year old plus “sleepers”. That said, I am excited about the new train sets and sleepers coming out in the next year or two.


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## Amtrakfflyer

That’s a very interesting point. For all intents and purposes they already did remove the meals. What’s left of monetary value? A three dollar breakfast and a five to eight dollar lunch and dinner. All three meals of the day represent less than a $20 total value. 

That’s monetarily, the edibility and enjoyability value are closer to zero. 

Back to the question if they did remove the current offerings from the sleeper fare how much would you expect the fare to actually go down?



Qapla said:


> I'm sure if they did remove meals from sleepers - they would not reduce the price ... and that would cause even more discontent


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## Rail Freak

Anyone done a study of the Silver Star?


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## Twinkletoes

I prefer to travel in a sleeper because it is a sleeper. I say that from the perspective of one who first traveled in a sleeper (occasionally) just before Amtrak, and many of the attendants dated from the Pullman era. I liked that the meals were reasonably good, and I enjoyed the fact that when I was a coach passenger, I had the option of getting a hot meal in the dining car. The food has been on the decline since the end of actual cooked food and the advent of prepackaged foods. The available selections grew fewer and the desserts devolved into microwave chocolate cake affairs or brownies. Flex? What's flexible? I think they just had to give it a specious name to make it appear that there was something better about it. No, it's just food that's at the level of meals available in the freezer aisle at the local grocery store.

What I pay for in a sleeper is (1) a bed (2) privacy (no potluck on who one gets as seatmates or coach mates--noisy and nosy versus quiet and delightful conversationalists; uncomfortably obese (3) a private toilet (4) nicer waiting room and (5) the ability to sleep and awake at my choice (shades closed to make it dark). Even some of the new standard of nominal meal service would be tolerable if Amtrak were able to train its personnel uniformly in hospitality. One is not seeking obsequious servants, but indifferent (sometimes bordering on hostile) service is not excusable. The lack of uniformity means that different staff folk impose different rules and procedures so you never know what to expect. I've never felt that the meals offset the price differential from coach. It's always been the amenities.

The underlying issue is the lack of a national commitment to invest in long distance train travel.


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## fdaley

I don't know who else here is old enough to remember, but back in the '70s and '80s and earlier, everyone paid cash (or plastic) for whatever meals they chose to have in the dining car. Sometime in the late '80s, as I recall (i.e., I might be off by a few years), Amtrak decided to make dining car meals part of a "first class service package," included in the price of a sleeper room, and they jacked up the price of the rooms accordingly. (Actually, I think the price increase was quite a bit more in most cases than what one would have spent on a room plus meals under the old system.)

What's happened now on the eastern trains is that they've gutted the service package but left the room prices as high as ever.

In the '70s and early '80s, being young and closer to broke, I often traveled in coach, splurging for a sleeper (or a slumbercoach room) now and then. But I always managed to come up with the cash for diner meals. After the switch to meals being included in the sleeper price, it suddenly got harder for coach passengers to get access to the dining car. On busy trains, the dining car staff would take reservations in the sleepers first and then maybe not have any slots left, or only a few, for coach riders. So I began to make it a practice to just book a room on overnight trains.

In a way, it's the food that made me a regular sleeper customer. Without it, the experience is so diminished that I'm more inclined to just stay home if the trip is discretionary.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

fdaley said:


> In a way, it's the food that made me a regular sleeper customer. Without it, the experience is so diminished that I'm more inclined to just stay home if the trip is discretionary.



That is exactly how I felt about going to Florida this year--usually I have gone on the Meteor from PHL to WPK, stayed a few days, and come back.

It is true that this year has been warmer at home than usual so far, with no blizzards, and that part of my travel money went for a root canal.

Even so, instead of thinking what a shame it was I wasn't going to Florida, my reaction was "No dining car--that was 90 percent of what made the trip so enjoyable--no reason to bother now."


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

“No dining car--that was 90 percent of what made the trip so enjoyable--no reason to bother now."


Whether you are a rail enthusiast or just looking at all the options to get from point A to point B the statement above sums it up.

Everyone except Amtrak knows they can’t charge the equivalent of first class airfare (or more) with no perceived amenities and expect it to be a viable option to the masses. Management needs to be removed before more long term damage is done.


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## neroden

When I mention Amtrak to people who don't take intercity trains yet, their first question is whether there is a dining car. It is an inherently popular amenity. On trains where ridership is high enough and the trip runs across mealtimes, such as the LSL, it should be commercially valuable.


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## neroden

niemi24s said:


> Wait a sec.
> 
> Back in Post #1704 you stated But according to data reported by the RPA, *LSL ridership actually rose 9% between FY2015 and FY2016 and little a bit more between FY2016 and FY2017* perhaps in spite of that degraded food service! So the tiny ridership increase was due to the degraded food?????
> 
> Now you're asserting the documented ridership decline between FY2017 and FY2018 was a result of the closure of NYC!!
> 
> My apologies for clicking on the [Show Ignored Content] box.


Sorry, misremembered, it was revenue which dropped FY2015 FY2017, rather than ridership. Makes my point better I think. You can always "buy" riders with low prices.

The cancellation of service to NYP was huge. I see a dropping revenue trend correlating with the food service cuts on top of the NYP cut effect. I also blame Amtrak for not advertising the return of NYP service.


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## crescent-zephyr

I still enjoyed my trip on the meteor. What I didn’t enjoy was not having decent food options. Even if everything was prepackaged if I could have picked a decent quality entree salad, a gluten free dessert, and goodness even a bag of plain potato chips I would be content.


----------



## rrdude

crescent-zephyr said:


> The food in domestic first class, imho, is much better than the food in contemporary dining, but not quite as good as the best traditional dining entrees like steak and salmon.
> 
> By anyone’s standards the food in domestic first class is presented better. Tablecloth, silverware, cloth napkin, ceramic plates, glassware etc.



Or, take Amtrak's own example, the food on First Class on Acela, while not GREAT, is 10 X better than the slop they throw at you in "Flexible Dining". Reminds me of the late 70's or early 80's, when Amtrak went to "Modified Meal Service" on ALL LD Trains. I actually had a meal "thrown", actually shoved/pushed back at me by an irate passenger in the diner. (to their credit, they apologized profusely later that day, and gave me a $20 tip.....)


----------



## rrdude

PRR 60 said:


> The flex meals are not microwaved. They are warmed in convection ovens - same as Acela First Class and aircraft galleys.



But, *you have to agree*, they are not SERVED, or plated, or even TASTE, like ANY meal on Acela FC, or any FC domestic airline. Plastic, wrappers still on, plastic cutlery, paper napkin... CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP. Not what I expect for the *big *EXTRA $$$ we pay for a room. (Bedroom *or* roomette)


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## lordsigma

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Even so, instead of thinking what a shame it was I wasn't going to Florida, my reaction was "No dining car--that was 90 percent of what made the trip so enjoyable--no reason to bother now."



The traditional diner was definitely better than this new program but I can’t say that I agree that the food is 90% of what makes the trip enjoyable. I’ve always found the food mediocre but then again Im a relatively new rail rider and didn’t ride in the better days of rail travel. But just one person’s opinion.


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## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak doesn’t care about ridership when it comes to these cuts - the key metric is did the loss number go down between FY17 and FY19. Did they lower the cost of carrying passengers on these trains.



If the measure of success is only whether the cost of providing food service has gone down, then clearly the contemporary/flexible food program is a great success. Amtrak now offers many fewer menu options, of much lower quality, and managed to eliminate a couple of jobs on every departure of the affected trains, so there's no question they're spending less on this amenity. But if they don't consider the effect on ridership, it's really just an exercise in boneheaded accounting.

When Amtrak switched from traditional dining to "contemporary" food on the Lake Shore and Capitol, the company estimated it would save $3 million a year because of the change. That sounds like a lot, but when you divide it by the 365 days a year that the trains run, and divide again by the four daily departures (two eastbound and two westbound) of the two trains, the savings works out to about $2,000 per departure. When you consider that number, it's easy to see how lost ridership could completely offset the "savings" from this change.

Suppose that, on any given night, there is one couple that would have spent $700 on a bedroom from Albany to Chicago but decides to stay home because there's no more dining service. Then suppose there's another couple that decides to fly rather than paying $1,200 (at one of the higher bucket prices) for a second bedroom on the train. Suddenly, with just two rooms going unoccupied, the net savings from contemporary dining on that departure is down to $100. Meanwhile, how many people in the remaining four bedrooms, 36 roomettes and two accessible rooms are having their "never again" Amtrak experience?


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## lordsigma

Flex dining surely doesn’t look great, I just think they don’t care about the affect on ridership unless it is enough of an affect that it negates the money they saved and losses actually go up. This year will be interesting - the reauthorization is going to be these executives and Amtrak board one and only chance to try to get congress on board with their ideas of diverting some LD money to corridors. If it’s flatly rejected, then perhaps you will see some of these managers leave. Everything is riding on that process.

At the same time while I think the contemporary food thing is an issue they could if they wanted to make the program at least acceptable to most passengers if they put in more effort. Whether they will well find out eventually I guess. But I do think there are other things that ultimately affect the viability of the train more - OTP and unaffordable prices. If you make a move like flex dining, but also fix OTP and reduce the prices to reflect flex dining and add more capacity with the new sleepers to also lower prices at peak times (which it seems they haven’t done) you might have a wash. Food plays a role but it isn’t the only factor.


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## Qapla

They could have gone in he other direction and probably increased their profits more than what they did.

They could have actually, truly enhanced the meals. Made them better. Offer a premium meal with premium service in the sleepers - and raised the price. They may have found that they would have sold out more often ... and made much more profit than they have by reducing service and losing riders.


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## niemi24s

Losing riders?

Much continued blather about the dire effect on ridership by contemporary dining on the CL and LSL by those who don't bother to look at current reported facts: http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf A little arithmetic reveals that *the combined ridership of the CL and LSL rose nearly 2%* *from FY18 to FY19*. That's only about 0.6% below the average rise for all of Amtrak.


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## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> They could have gone in he other direction and probably increased their profits more than what they did.
> 
> They could have actually, truly enhanced the meals. Made them better. Offer a premium meal with premium service in the sleepers - and raised the price. They may have found that they would have sold out more often ... and made much more profit than they have by reducing service and losing riders.



Or they could have encouraged sleeper passengers to use “room service” which would free up more space for Coach passengers. And also rolled out the “at your seat” meals to Coach passengers as well. You know, the ones that proved successful but Amtrak ended for no reason?


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## fdaley

niemi24s said:


> Losing riders?
> 
> Much continued blather about the dire effect on ridership by contemporary dining on the CL and LSL by those who don't bother to look at current reported facts: http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FY19-Year-End-Ridership.pdf A little arithmetic reveals that *the combined ridership of the CL and LSL rose nearly 2%* *from FY18 to FY19*. That's only about 0.6% below the average rise for all of Amtrak.



See Post #1709, which explains why the FY18 number for the Lake Shore is an anomaly. The ridership on both trains was down 8 to 10 percent from FY17, the last full year with traditional dining, to FY19, the first full year without it.


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## me_little_me

Amtrakfflyer said:


> That’s a very interesting point. For all intents and purposes they already did remove the meals. What’s left of monetary value? A three dollar breakfast and a five to eight dollar lunch and dinner. All three meals of the day represent less than a $20 total value.
> 
> That’s monetarily, the edibility and enjoyability value are closer to zero.
> 
> Back to the question if they did remove the current offerings from the sleeper fare how much would you expect the fare to actually go down?


Yeah. They didn't reduce the price for all the workers that are gone (cooks, servers, etc) as well as the reduced cost of the present meals or the reduced service costs since cleaning barely used diners must be a snap. On the other hand, they'll probably reduce the cost (but not the price) by getting rid of the last "server" and removing the Diner-Lounge from the consist to make the sleeper passengers buy cafe food. Then they'll modify unused baggage cars to make them into sleeper-lounges with bunk beds that millennials want (as Amtrak will probably claim).


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## Mystic River Dragon

me_little_me said:


> Then they'll modify unused baggage cars to make them into sleeper-lounges with bunk beds that millennials want (as Amtrak will probably claim).



Bunk beds? That would be much too luxurious! They'll probably just have everyone sleep on the bare floor and call it "flexible and enhanced camping."


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## Steve4031

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Bunk beds? That would be much too luxurious! They'll probably just have everyone sleep on the bare floor and call it "flexible and enhanced camping."




BYOSB. Bring your own sleeping bag.


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## neroden

lordsigma said:


> Flex dining surely doesn’t look great, I just think they don’t care about the affect on ridership unless it is enough of an affect that it negates the money they saved and losses actually go up.



It already has.

What really bugs me is that there are ways they could have provided food-not-cooked-on-board which wouldn't have had this effect. I've had good boxed food in other contexts. But there was a choice made to provide real garbage.

I'm with crescent-zephyr on this one. There was a period when I was happily eating the boxed caesar salads and cheese-and-cracker trays out of the Amtrak cafe. They just removed those, of course, in what seems to be an effort to drive passengers away entirely.


----------



## drdumont

neroden said:


> It already has.
> 
> What really bugs me is that there are ways they could have provided food-not-cooked-on-board which wouldn't have had this effect. I've had good boxed food in other contexts. But there was a choice made to provide real garbage.
> 
> I'm with crescent-zephyr on this one. There was a period when I was happily eating the boxed caesar salads and cheese-and-cracker trays out of the Amtrak cafe. They just removed those, of course, in what seems to be an effort to drive passengers away entirely.



I still maintain that this is the case. Can we lay this at Anderson's feet? Likely. 
There are other prepackaged meal options which are not too bad at all. Putting offal on the menu and calling it Chateaubriand is what is going on.
<Since it is Sunday and I am in a good mood, I used the word 'offal', rather than my first choice...)


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## crescent-zephyr

So if I had to create something with the current system I would do the following -

Breakfast - Same as now without the breakfast sandwich and instead offer - warm cinnamon rolls or mini waffles and egg bites similar to the ones served at starbukcs (they come pre-made and frozen.)

Lunch - Offer a choice of entree salad or sandwich. The salads and Sandwich plates would be pre-made and would be served with the following choices - Tuna Salad, Turkey, Roast Beef, Veggies and Hummus. Everything would be pre-made so you just add the chosen protein to the chosen salad / sandwich plate. Add a pack of chips and choice of dessert.

Dinner - entree plates would be pre-made with side salad, garnish, and premium cold side dish. Hot Entrees would be - salmon, grilled chicken, beef, and a veg. Entree. The entrees would be heated up and added to the pre-made plates. You could offer choices of side salad and premium cold sides, as they could be pre-made before serving time... or you could just have 1 basic plate. Again add a choice of dessert.

Desserts should include at least 1 gluten free option. 

This allows some options for customers to mix and match and customize based on diets. If the above would be too complicated... maybe only offer 1 or 2 choices with the entree plate for dinner and continue to offer the entree salads but not the sandwiches for dinner?


----------



## Big Iron

I had my chance at Flex Dining this past weekend on 49 and 50. Had the Asian Noodle Bowl on 49 and the Chicken Fettuccini on 50. Both were awful. Eating the noodles was like chewing gum. Just overall tasteless and horrible presentation. Breakfast was just OK. 

The LSA on 49 was wonderful, took my order and brought it to me. On 50 I sat down in the "car that you can eat food in" or whatever they are calling it now and the LSA hollered from behind the counter, " If you wanna eat you have to come here to order it." When it was ready she hollered again "hey you" (motioning with her finger with the come here gesture that mothers have made famous over the years) if you want to eat you need to come get it. My name and room number was on the manifest the LSA's had. The 49 LSA used my name, welcomed me and engaged me in light conversation. Eating on 49 was OK given the nice and conversational LSA but on 50 I felt like I was eating in a prison. I will be bringing on food or eating off the train for future LD trips. Both times there was only one other person in the car so not being over worked. The 50 LSA was talking to the onboard crew and surfing the net on her cellphone.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Big Iron said:


> I had my chance at Flex Dining this past weekend on 49 and 50. Had the Asian Noodle Bowl on 49 and the Chicken Fettuccini on 50. Both were awful. Eating the noodles was like chewing gum. Just overall tasteless and horrible presentation. Breakfast was just OK.
> 
> The LSA on 49 was wonderful, took my order and brought it to me. On 50 I sat down in the "car that you can eat food in" or whatever they are calling it now and the LSA hollered from behind the counter, " If you wanna eat you have to come here to order it." When it was ready she hollered again "hey you" (motioning with her finger with the come here gesture that mothers have made famous over the years) if you want to eat you need to come get it. My name and room number was on the manifest the LSA's had. The 49 LSA used my name, welcomed me and engaged me in light conversation. Eating on 49 was OK given the nice and conversational LSA but on 50 I felt like I was eating in a prison. I will be bringing on food or eating off the train for future LD trips. Both times there was only one other person in the car so not being over worked. The 50 LSA was talking to the onboard crew and surfing the net on her cellphone.



My experience on the meteor was right in between the 49 and 50. The LSA wasn’t as rude or demanding as what you described, but was usually sitting in the booth talking with co-workers and when I asked a question “do you have iced coffee?”
She said “the menu is there on the wall”

It’s that attitude that has really made me fly more and more.

Oh by the way... they have taken iced coffee drinks off the menu in the cafe cars and Acela cafe too. Can’t have nice things anymore even if you are willing to pay.


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## OBS

Please take t


Big Iron said:


> I had my chance at Flex Dining this past weekend on 49 and 50. Had the Asian Noodle Bowl on 49 and the Chicken Fettuccini on 50. Both were awful. Eating the noodles was like chewing gum. Just overall tasteless and horrible presentation. Breakfast was just OK.
> 
> The LSA on 49 was wonderful, took my order and brought it to me. On 50 I sat down in the "car that you can eat food in" or whatever they are calling it now and the LSA hollered from behind the counter, " If you wanna eat you have to come here to order it." When it was ready she hollered again "hey you" (motioning with her finger with the come here gesture that mothers have made famous over the years) if you want to eat you need to come get it. My name and room number was on the manifest the LSA's had. The 49 LSA used my name, welcomed me and engaged me in light conversation. Eating on 49 was OK given the nice and conversational LSA but on 50 I felt like I was eating in a prison. I will be bringing on food or eating off the train for future LD trips. Both times there was only one other person in the car so not being over worked. The 50 LSA was talking to the onboard crew and surfing the net on her cellphone.


Please take the time to report your experience on train #50 to Amtrak!


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> So if I had to create something with the current system I would do the following -
> 
> Breakfast - Same as now without the breakfast sandwich and instead offer - warm cinnamon rolls or mini waffles and egg bites similar to the ones served at starbukcs (they come pre-made and frozen.)
> 
> Lunch - Offer a choice of entree salad or sandwich. The salads and Sandwich plates would be pre-made and would be served with the following choices - Tuna Salad, Turkey, Roast Beef, Veggies and Hummus. Everything would be pre-made so you just add the chosen protein to the chosen salad / sandwich plate. Add a pack of chips and choice of dessert.
> 
> Dinner - entree plates would be pre-made with side salad, garnish, and premium cold side dish. Hot Entrees would be - salmon, grilled chicken, beef, and a veg. Entree. The entrees would be heated up and added to the pre-made plates. You could offer choices of side salad and premium cold sides, as they could be pre-made before serving time... or you could just have 1 basic plate. Again add a choice of dessert.
> 
> Desserts should include at least 1 gluten free option.
> 
> This allows some options for customers to mix and match and customize based on diets. If the above would be too complicated... maybe only offer 1 or 2 choices with the entree plate for dinner and continue to offer the entree salads but not the sandwiches for dinner?


Good summary. The key point you've highlighted is the need for something at lunch that is not the same as dinner. Everything you've suggested should be readily available at similar total cost _if they chose to go that route_. The only argument I can hear coming would be storage. I have to wonder if that contributes to the current choices, since having fewer of each item to accommodate more variety could lead to running out of some, with the end result being even fewer choices.


----------



## OBS

jiml said:


> Good summary. The key point you've highlighted is the need for something at lunch that is not the same as dinner. Everything you've suggested should be readily available at similar total cost _if they chose to go that route_. The only argument I can hear coming would be storage. I have to wonder if that contributes to the current choices, since having fewer of each item to accommodate more variety could lead to running out of some, with the end result being even fewer choices.


There should be no argument about storage. This is a dining car built to stock provisions for B-L-D for a 2-3 day trip....Plenty of refrigeration/storage space.


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## tuxedo2549

My wife and I will be taking the crescent to New Orleans from Philly early March. We have been disappointed to learn that the dining service has become airplane food without the option to pre order a decent meal. It is unfortunate that Amtrak made what I believe is a decision that totally disregards the comfort and enjoyment of the sleeper car rider. I have complained to Amtrak and if we had known about these changes we would have sought others means of travel. Please voice your dissatisfaction to all in authority. Maybe they will get the message


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## Devil's Advocate

Big Iron said:


> When [the food] was ready she hollered again "hey you" (motioning with her finger with the come here gesture that mothers have made famous over the years) if you want to eat you need to come get it.


Wow. It's completely and utterly obnoxious to act like this toward to a paying customer. Amtrak customer service continues to reach far beyond the pale. I would like to echo OBS' request to report this to the Customer Relations desk and request a voucher. Even if the amount provided is tiny and never used it will hopefully create a paper trail that can be combined with other complaints to get this person retrained or moved to another position far away from customers. If enough people complain it might even help push back against Anderson's Contemptible Dining initiative.


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## Big Iron

OBS said:


> Please take t
> 
> Please take the time to report your experience on train #50 to Amtrak!


I have with reservation number and other pertinent information. Also sent praise and thank yous for the two SCA's who were wonderful. Natalie (449) and Momma J (50). Momma J gave me a personal tour of the bag/dorm.


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## JRR

Mystic River Dragon said:


> That is exactly how I felt about going to Florida this year--usually I have gone on the Meteor from PHL to WPK, stayed a few days, and come back.
> 
> It is true that this year has been warmer at home than usual so far, with no blizzards, and that part of my travel money went for a root canal.
> 
> Even so, instead of thinking what a shame it was I wasn't going to Florida, my reaction was "No dining car--that was 90 percent of what made the trip so enjoyable--no reason to bother now."



Sorry about the root canal. Winter Park is Susan’s favorite! Tough to miss.


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## JRR

tuxedo2549 said:


> My wife and I will be taking the crescent to New Orleans from Philly early March. We have been disappointed to learn that the dining service has become airplane food without the option to pre order a decent meal. It is unfortunate that Amtrak made what I believe is a decision that totally disregards the comfort and enjoyment of the sleeper car rider. I have complained to Amtrak and if we had known about these changes we would have sought others means of travel. Please voice your dissatisfaction to all in authority. Maybe they will get the message



Make sure your trip is not “bustituted” between Atlanta and New Orleans. There is track work going on periodically.


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## Ryan

Wraps up next week.



> *Crescent Trains 19 and 20 Bus Service Provided between Atlanta and New Orleans*
> Effective January 19 - February 20, 2020
> Track work being performed by Norfolk Southern Railway will affect Trains 19 and 20 between New Orleans and Atlanta, Monday through Thursday January 20 through January 23, January 27 through January 30, February 3 through February 6, February 10 through February 13 and February 17 through February 20.


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## JRR

Ryan said:


> Wraps up next week.



Thanks for the update.


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## drfonta

I'm on the Star next month (before the flex dining gets added) NY to FL, and have been flip flopping back and forth between a roomette on the Meteor or Bedroom on the Star. I've got the voucher credit for the difference in price, roughly 330$ more for the Star BR, however only "A" is available. (Although I am pretty good a "renewing" voucher expiration dates, I'd rather just use it up honestly. I'm not a regular traveler since I live and work in Asia.) Given the reviews here on the flex dining food, and preferring the earlier departure out of NYP, (I will have big time jet lag having flown in the day before, and find leaving earlier in the day MUCH preferable, even just 4 hours) decided to just go with the Star BR and grabbing a Katz deli sandwich or two to take with me for lunch/dinner. Maybe even pack a couple of dunkin donuts too...And a bottle of wine of course! Am taking the Meteor back north in a roomette so I will get the flex "experience" then...


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## lordsigma

drfonta said:


> I'm on the Star next month (before the flex dining gets added) NY to FL, and have been flip flopping back and forth between a roomette on the Meteor or Bedroom on the Star. I've got the voucher credit for the difference in price, roughly 330$ more for the Star BR, however only "A" is available. (Although I am pretty good a "renewing" voucher expiration dates, I'd rather just use it up honestly. I'm not a regular traveler since I live and work in Asia.) Given the reviews here on the flex dining food, and preferring the earlier departure out of NYP, (I will have big time jet lag having flown in the day before, and find leaving earlier in the day MUCH preferable, even just 4 hours) decided to just go with the Star BR and grabbing a Katz deli sandwich or two to take with me for lunch/dinner. Maybe even pack a couple of dunkin donuts too...And a bottle of wine of course! Am taking the Meteor back north in a roomette so I will get the flex "experience" then...



Star down and meteor up are a good way to do it. I’ll be doing Star south to Columbia SC and Meteor north from Florence SC in May.


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## pennyk

lordsigma said:


> Star down and meteor up are a good way to do it. I’ll be doing Star south to Columbia SC and Meteor north from Florence SC in May.


I will be doing Meteor north and Star south in March and May.


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## Qapla

If things finally work out for us, we will be taking the Star up and back from JAX to RGH ... most likely riding Coach

Might take some munchies but shouldn't need a meal. We will both bring our insulated drink carriers (I have one that holds almost a ½ gal)


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## warren.r.snyder

Im not one to complain, buts as someone who enjoys a decent meal, a frequent LSL rider on 448, 449, the Flex dining options suck. Bring back real meals.


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## tricia

OBS said:


> Please take t
> 
> Please take the time to report your experience on train #50 to Amtrak!


Also your better experience on #49. Credit where credit's due....

Sorry--missed the post further down that this had already been done.


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## 20th Century Rider

Took the Lakeshore out of Boston… there is no diner on this section so they let you order from the cafe … which offers much higher quality and more enjoyable experience than the new 'flex dining.' I had a chicken sandwich and salad… and got a Corona Beer with lime wedge as my complementary alcoholic drink. Delightful! When finally arriving in Albany, the Boston sleeper passengers had to wait until 7pm to get service… then walk back 5 cars to the diner. To make matters even worse, many of the offerings had been given to the New York passengers who had eaten earlier. Flex dining is very unpleasant and unsatisfying… the small servings of food have no texture or taste. This is a monotonous food product. I ride LD often and have had this stuff a number of times; dread it… will bring my own food next time. As the decline in service accelerates, one wonders what's next.


----------



## me_little_me

Big Iron said:


> I had my chance at Flex Dining this past weekend on 49 and 50. Had the Asian Noodle Bowl on 49 and the Chicken Fettuccini on 50. Both were awful. Eating the noodles was like chewing gum. Just overall tasteless and horrible presentation. Breakfast was just OK.
> 
> The LSA on 49 was wonderful, took my order and brought it to me. On 50 I sat down in the "car that you can eat food in" or whatever they are calling it now and the LSA hollered from behind the counter, " If you wanna eat you have to come here to order it." When it was ready she hollered again "hey you" (motioning with her finger with the come here gesture that mothers have made famous over the years) if you want to eat you need to come get it. My name and room number was on the manifest the LSA's had. The 49 LSA used my name, welcomed me and engaged me in light conversation. Eating on 49 was OK given the nice and conversational LSA but on 50 I felt like I was eating in a prison. I will be bringing on food or eating off the train for future LD trips. Both times there was only one other person in the car so not being over worked. The 50 LSA was talking to the onboard crew and surfing the net on her cellphone.


Just think about how much you're saving on tips! I figure between me and my wife, we save about $$25-$30 per day in the dining room. No service, no tip. Little service, little tip. No need to carry lots of small bills every time we take a sleeper. Bigger bills are for SCAs WHEN they provide service - like being friendly, being flexible about setting up at sleep time, and helping us old people with bags and other such things that some on the eastern trains, particularly, must think is beneath them.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> Just think about how much you're saving on tips! I figure between me and my wife, we save about $$25-$30 per day in the dining room. No service, no tip. Little service, little tip. No need to carry lots of small bills every time we take a sleeper. Bigger bills are for SCAs WHEN they provide service - like being friendly, being flexible about setting up at sleep time, and helping us old people with bags and other such things that some on the eastern trains, particularly, must think is beneath them.



I’ve mentioned this before on the boards but since my SCA took my order for lunch and dinner, delivered my dinner, brought me coffee at breakfast time, and was extremely friendly I gave her the tip I would usually give the dining car servers. 

No way was I gonna tip the lsa that I had.


----------



## Ringfinder

Ringfinder said:


> My thoughts about the Cardboard lunches, they suck! My wife and I rode the Capital Limited from Toledo to Washington in February of this year in a Roomette. We could not believe we were getting a Box Lunch for our main meal I asked if we were going to get a refund for the meals we usually get while traveling 1st class, they just sort of laughed. Our rear attendant did his best to accommodate all of his passengers, but it was Amtrak who made this decision. After a 9 hr. Layover in Washington waiting on our train to Florida, we boarded the train. The Roomette was a lot better than the trains going out west, but the meals couldn’t hold a candle to the Empire Builder, the Southwest Chief, The California Zephyr. My wife and I will miss traveling out West! We so enjoy seeing our Beautiful west from Chicago to Seattle, Emeryville/San Francisco, LA, Albuquerque and all the States in between! It’s hard to believe that all the riders who ride coach will no longer be able to ride the rails! We can only hope that a new administration in Washington will see the value of Better Train Service in America.



Well, I’m still riding the rails and have been since my post. Thank goodness Anderson has not changed the overnight routes with box lunch meals. I want to go to Montana again this year (2020), but with Coronavirus, not sure I’ll be able to wait four hrs. In the a Chicago Station. I mostly travel the long haul routes. I live in the country so most of my rail riding is long haul. Since my post, I see some changes have occurred with eating arrangements for first class passengers, that is good. Hopefully we will get someone back in Government that likes to ride the rails and see’s the advantages for Rail Travel. 

Best Regards for the Betterment of Amtrak and it’s Riders.


----------



## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak customer service continues to reach far beyond the pale.


 Actually Amtrak's customer service is wildly inconsistent. I've had some really good service on contemporary flex dining (at least for what it's supposed to be), and then there's what was described here. I guess it doesn't hurt to complain, just to make sure the management gets the message that passengers care about this stuff. We don't expect white glove fawning service suitable for the Ritz, but a little pleasantness and efficiency goes a long way.

My favorite beef is service people who have long conversations with each other in front of customers about how to provide the service. Hey, I'm waiting to get served! You guys should have your processes in place before opening, and spend your time in front of customers actually taking care of customers, especially in the food biz, where we customers are hungry! This isn't a problem unique to Amtrak, by the way. I think in many instances it's more of a management problem than with the actual service people.


----------



## MARC Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> Took the Lakeshore out of Boston… there is no diner on this section so they let you order from the cafe … which offers much higher quality and more enjoyable experience than the new 'flex dining.'




Sounds like they should also let sleeper passengers order from the cafe car at no charge (within reasonable limits on number of items), and also convert the national cafe car menus to something approaching the northeast corridor cafe car menu. A few plain sandwiches, especially for meats without cheese, or just plain cheese, for people who don't care for the fancy sandwiches they try to put together.


----------



## JCTakoma

MARC Rider said:


> Sounds like they should also let sleeper passengers order from the cafe car at no charge (within reasonable limits on number of items), and also convert the national cafe car menus to something approaching the northeast corridor cafe car menu. A few plain sandwiches, especially for meats without cheese, or just plain cheese, for people who don't care for the fancy sandwiches they try to put together.



Letting sleepers order from the cafe car would clearly be superior in terms of food to the box lunches. I’d suggest organizing it with category limits (one snack/appetizer, one entree/sandwich, one dessert, one beverage) rather than by dollar limit, so that customers don’t spend minutes trying to calculate exact credit combinations... human nature, alas.

But for folks like me who love the long distance trains because of the combo of comfortable accommodations and dining experience, the best way the cafe car idea on its own could entice us back (we’re not planning to buy any more tickets on the Crescent) is if there are dining tables and a host to organize seating when things get crowded. (A better roomette comfort experience, and better scheduling including overnight sleeper-only trains, might also entice us, but that’s for another topic...)


----------



## IndyLions

Better yet, just convert the new Diners into First Class Lounges. Upgrade the food and beverage options as you do it. The attendant wouldn’t likely be that busy serving primarily sleeper passengers, so they could keep things clean and organized.  Create a friendly, casual lounge atmosphere. People used to call the lounge car the bar car - embrace that but class it up a bit. By gaining a nice amenity like that - it would take some of the sting away of losing the full diner.


----------



## lordsigma

If the “concept car” or something like it becomes a reality there won’t be a “cafe car” and “diner” anymore. There will just be a Viewliner diner serving all meals (the cafe and flex dining menus) id rather see them improve the quality of the flex dining meals than just offer free cafe items - the cafe car doesn’t serve any kind of gourmet food either though offering a few of the lighter fare options as additional choices in addition to the flex meals would be a good idea - I think you may see that if they go with this single car concept. As many on this board have stated it’s possible to serve quality pre-prepared meals that would be acceptable to most folks - the airlines do it daily and even the meals on Acela first would be an improvement.


----------



## IndyLions

lordsigma said:


> If the “concept car” or something like it becomes a reality there won’t be a “cafe car” and “diner” anymore. There will just be a Viewliner diner serving all meals (the cafe and flex dining menus) id rather see them improve the quality of the flex dining meals than just offer free cafe items - the cafe car doesn’t serve any kind of gourmet food either though offering a few of the lighter fare options as additional choices in addition to the flex meals would be a good idea - I think you may see that if they go with this single car concept. As many on this board have stated it’s possible to serve quality pre-prepared meals that would be acceptable to most folks - the airlines do it daily and even the meals on Acela first would be an improvement.



How will they reconcile the fact that the cafe car on most LD trains are very busy with Coach passengers nearly the entire time that they are open? Will that same attendant be preparing meals for sleepers? Not saying that you are wrong, just trying to figure out how that will work...


----------



## lordsigma

IndyLions said:


> How will they reconcile the fact that the cafe car on most LD trains are very busy with Coach passengers nearly the entire time that they are open? Will that same attendant be preparing meals for sleepers? Not saying that you are wrong, just trying to figure out how that will work...


It’s a legitimate point and I agree it does sound like there could be some problems and I don’t have the answers, but the concept does seem to hint that this is the plan as does Amtrak’s recent five year plan. Perhaps they will operate the car with both LSAs working together.


----------



## omaha

I would like to see Amtrak try something like the Chuck Wagon on the pre-Amtrak Denver Zephyr. It had a three-man crew (one chef and two waiters). They had three dinner selections (and a la carte selections) that were quick and easy to prepare


----------



## railpost

That's a very good point that you just made. It wasn't only the Denver Zephyr that had run with economy /grill cars either. Many long distance trains especially the ones that went from Chicago to the West Coast ran with a supplementary grill dining/lounge car. The Denver Zephyr ran with a Chuck Wagon Car, the California Zephyr ran with a Domed Buffet Lounge Car that had the "Cable Car Room", the Union Pacific trains had run with Cafe/Lounge Cars on the City of Portland and Denver and they also ran on the City of Los Angeles when it ran combined with the Challenger and the City of Sanfrancisco during the off season during the 1960's. Even the New York Central ran with Grill Diners for people who preferred more limited menus.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

omaha said:


> I would like to see Amtrak try something like the Chuck Wagon on the pre-Amtrak Denver Zephyr. It had a three-man crew (one chef and two waiters). They had three dinner selections (and a la carte selections) that were quick and easy to prepare



The Capitol limited, for a while anyways, had 1 chef and 2 waiters and shared the lsa with the cafe. 

I’ve said many times they could have kept the chef and 1 lsa and kept the menu but dropped the table service and we would be in a much better place.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

IndyLions said:


> How will they reconcile the fact that the cafe car on most LD trains are very busy with Coach passengers nearly the entire time that they are open? Will that same attendant be preparing meals for sleepers? Not saying that you are wrong, just trying to figure out how that will work...



They could have an lsa and a server and save a little $$$.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

IndyLions said:


> How will they reconcile the fact that the cafe car on most LD trains are very busy with Coach passengers nearly the entire time that they are open?


----------



## ehbowen

Devil's Advocate said:


>


----------



## Steve4031

That looks like bow I would be feeling if the line extended into the next car . . .


----------



## John Bobinyec

Amtrak still has posted that the Silver Star will get flexible dining service starting May 1. Is that still on? Yesterday, 92(5) had 4 passengers on the train at Cary, NC. Today, 92(6) had 7. I can't see adding a diner to the train when a cafe car will do, for so few passengers.

jb


----------



## Thirdrail7

John Bobinyec said:


> Amtrak still has posted that the Silver Star will get flexible dining service starting May 1. Is that still on? Yesterday, 92(5) had 4 passengers on the train at Cary, NC. Today, 92(6) had 7. I can't see adding a diner to the train when a cafe car will do, for so few passengers.
> 
> jb



It is probably still on since there haven't been plans to add a diner to the Star for some time. From the  Silver Star Diner thread: 






pennyk said:


> In early October, I was on the Silver Meteor and several managers were on board. One of the managers worked the Silver Star. At that time, he stated that flex dining would be coming to the Silver Star, but a Viewliner Diner/Sleeper Lounge would not. He stated that the cafe car would be a single food service car with one half for coach passengers and one half for sleeper passengers. Since I heard this in early October, things may have changed.



This still stands true. The cafe car will still continue in the consist so the only real change will be the food. It will resemble the Cardinal. 

FWIW, they also removed the dining cars from the Crescent. Everything is handled from the cafe car. I see no reason why the Star wouldn't follow the same premise.


----------



## IndyLions

Thirdrail7 said:


> FWIW, they also removed the dining cars from the Crescent. Everything is handled from the cafe car. I see no reason why the Star wouldn't follow the same premise.


So did they pull the diners from the Crescent so that they could add the convection ovens we’ve been hearing about? Or are there additional needs for million dollar axle count cars still?


----------



## Rasputin

IndyLions said:


> So did they pull the diners from the Crescent so that they could add the convection ovens we’ve been hearing about?


I could be convinced that Amtrak management has been working overtime during this virus crisis to make long distance trains worth traveling again once the crisis has passed. However I don't think I have smoked enough of it yet.


----------



## me_little_me

Thirdrail7 said:


> It is probably still on since there haven't been plans to add a diner to the Star for some time. From the  Silver Star Diner thread:
> 
> This still stands true. The cafe car will still continue in the consist so the only real change will be the food. It will resemble the Cardinal.


The Crescent food tasted like a Cardinal. Lots of feathers and not very nutritious or tasty food.


----------



## Thirdrail7

IndyLions said:


> So did they pull the diners from the Crescent so that they could add the convection ovens we’ve been hearing about? Or are there additional needs for million dollar axle count cars still?



I believe all the convection ovens have been added. Maybe they pulled them to see if they could get you to increase your post count. 

So far, so good.


----------



## lordsigma

There's probably no real point in running two food service cars right now with so few passengers, not surprised to hear this and I am surprised they haven't done it on additional trains.


----------



## Qapla

They do what they have to if they need the axle count


----------



## lordsigma

Traditional dining service will be suspended on all trains except the sleeper diner on auto train. One LSA will serve the flexible dining menu in those trains from the dining car during this period. It appears traditional dining will resume June 1st when Amtrak is currently slated to return to a full schedule.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> Traditional dining service will be suspended on all trains except the sleeper diner on auto train. One LSA will serve the flexible dining menu in those trains from the dining car during this period. It appears traditional dining will resume June 1st when Amtrak is currently slated to return to a full schedule.


I saw the Easter bunny, too!


----------



## Thirdrail7

lordsigma said:


> One LSA will serve the flexible dining menu in those trains from the dining car during this period



You mean mostly from the cafe car. The remaining eastern trains (except the LSL) will remove their dining cars.



me_little_me said:


> I saw the Easter bunny, too!



It isn't a firm date and the reality of the situation is ridership will likely dictate when (and if) a two-car operation returns.


----------



## lordsigma

Thirdrail7 said:


> You mean mostly from the cafe car. The remaining eastern trains (except the LSL) will remove their dining cars.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't a firm date and the reality of the situation is ridership will likely dictate when (and if) a two-car operation returns.


Are they not keeping the dining cars on the western trains? I thought I saw on the thing I read that it was staying in the consist on the western trains and that they were making consist changes in the east. Sorry for being unclear - my comment about serving flex meals in the dining car was intended to refer to the western trains. We shall see if the June 1st date holds up. I would imagine that even though that seems to be the official present "return to normal" day (not just in this but in the return to normal train frequencies) a lot will depend on what the governments do and after that when people start to feel comfortable riding the train and other forms of transport like airplanes and buses. And I would imagine even when lock down restrictions are relaxed for many, some folks in the higher risk categories may still be subject to stay at home recommendations. While I hope for the sake of the affected employees (and for my eventual plans to take a cross country trip) that the traditional dining service is reinstated in the west, I would not be shocked to see them permanently pull the VL2 diners in the east and store them until it is decided in the long term on whatever new "concept" they want to do for their desired single car scenario unless ridership recovered back to a point where the cafe couldn't cut it. If they go into storage we probably wouldn't see them until eventually (who knows how long) they come out of storage presumably modified in a new configuration to replace the AmCafes.


----------



## lordsigma

RPA had a pretty substantial piece about the present situation today. The VP of the long distance line stressed to RPA this is a temporary move and that the affected employees are on the extra board like other employees affected by the Covid situation and not furloughed and are receiving pay.


----------



## west point

If the Amtrak employees arte not furloughed maybe when distancing is no longer requires then...……... Then have them as extra crew to provide extra services for the persons willing to travel first on Amtrak.


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## Geordie405

Hopefully someone can answer a quick alcohol related question related to Flexible Dining (especially as I will be experiencing it for the first time tomorrow when I leave Los Angeles on the Texas Eagle to Chicago)?

I'm assuming that when Amtrak says that the first one is on us they mean the first one per meal, and not simply the first one of the trip? Ever the optimist here...

Thanks!


----------



## pennyk

Geordie405 said:


> Hopefully someone can answer a quick alcohol related question related to Flexible Dining (especially as I will be experiencing it for the first time tomorrow when I leave Los Angeles on the Texas Eagle to Chicago)?
> 
> I'm assuming that when Amtrak says that the first one is on us they mean the first one per meal, and not simply the first one of the trip? Ever the optimist here...
> 
> Thanks!


First one per trip, regardless of the number of meals.


----------



## Geordie405

pennyk said:


> First one per trip, regardless of the number of meals.



Bugger! That's a bit unfair. Well, at least I'll probably get a 2nd one for free after San Antonio


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Geordie405 said:


> Hopefully someone can answer a quick alcohol related question related to Flexible Dining (especially as I will be experiencing it for the first time tomorrow when I leave Los Angeles on the Texas Eagle to Chicago)?
> 
> I'm assuming that when Amtrak says that the first one is on us they mean the first one per meal, and not simply the first one of the trip? Ever the optimist here...
> 
> Thanks!


Not only is it one per trip regardless of how long the trip... they've downsized the plastic wine bottles to 'wine minis.' If you want to maximize your 'only one' slim pickin's try the Corona Beer with a lime wedge... that is... if you still can.


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## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Not only is it one per trip regardless of how long the trip... they've downsized the plastic wine bottles to 'wine minis.' If you want to maximize your 'only one' slim pickin's try the Corona Beer with a lime wedge... that is... if you still can.



What’s a wine mini? The serving size bottles were pretty small already.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> What’s a wine mini? The serving size bottles were pretty small already.


Tried to google some data on the updated wine amount in the new little plastic bottles without success... I had experienced several previous trips with the new 'contemporary service' and thought they had went from 6 to 5 oz but not totally sure. Anyway... for wine... it's not much. Fortunately, and as you may know, when traveling in a private room you can bring your own stock.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Tried to google some data on the updated wine amount in the new little plastic bottles without success... I had experienced several previous trips with the new 'contemporary service' and thought they had went from 6 to 5 oz but not totally sure. Anyway... for wine... it's not much. Fortunately, and as you may know, when traveling in a private room you can bring your own stock.



I didn’t realize the downgrade in the drink menu. You can’t order a half bottle of wine now.


----------



## Manny T

My recollection is that when Amtrak initiated the first drink free with "contemporary" dining, initially if you ordered wine, you got a half bottle of Hahn cabernet or chardonnay (375ml) which Amtrak previously sold a la carte for around $18.50. It looked like this:




__





Find great wines on WineLibrary.com


Online wine retailer offering a variety of ratings, reviews, tasting notes, recommendations, and information on the latest trends.



winelibrary.com




Note store retail price: $7.99.
I thought at the time that Amtrak was (a) being generous and (b) getting rid of their old stock.

Once these half-bottles ran out (I assume), they switched to giving mini-bottles (187ml) of cabernet or chardonnay which retail for about $1.50 in most supermarkets (they are usually sold in a 4 pack).
Amtrak sells these a la carte for $8.
As an "amenity" these mini-bottles are worthless imho.


----------



## jebr

Manny T said:


> As an "amenity" these mini-bottles are worthless imho.



I wouldn't go so far as to say they're worthless. They're a small touch that, if executed better, could be a bit of an upgraded experience. I do think they should expand it to one alcoholic drink per meal included, and maybe include a few more "craft" sodas so that way people who don't drink alcohol can have something a bit more premium than a Coca-Cola if they prefer.

I also think it's a big miss to not have a cheese and cracker tray, along with a beverage of choice, provided on the LSL upon departure from Chicago. It'd be an easy way to get a bit more revenue pushed over to the F&B line item, and I think it'd step up the experience significantly without costing that much overall.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jebr said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say they're worthless. They're a small touch that, if executed better, could be a bit of an upgraded experience. I do think they should expand it to one alcoholic drink per meal included, and maybe include a few more "craft" sodas so that way people who don't drink alcohol can have something a bit more premium than a Coca-Cola if they prefer.
> 
> I also think it's a big miss to not have a cheese and cracker tray, along with a beverage of choice, provided on the LSL upon departure from Chicago. It'd be an easy way to get a bit more revenue pushed over to the F&B line item, and I think it'd step up the experience significantly without costing that much overall.


When Amtrak started the contemporary meal program it was actually pretty nice… came in a balsa wood box which was handed to you in a reusable cloth shopping bag. The charcuterie plate plate was of impressive quality with a dessert of sea salt caramel; there was also a buffet style area which included extra rolls, desserts, condiments, and drinks. The complementary alcoholic drink included the larger 375 ml wine bottles. In addition to all this, each passenger received an overnight kit with toothbrush, soaps, etc. Soon thereafter the meal downgrades kicked in to where many of us have become offended. I enjoyed the initial meal offerings on two trips taken on the Lakeshore Limited.


----------



## Bob Dylan

When I rode the Cap Ltd from WAS to CHI back in Oct. 2018, I received the Amenity Kit which was in my room upon boarding, but I thought the "Fresh and Contemporary" Dinner and Breakfast were the Worst 2 Meals by Far I've ever had on Amtrak!

There have been several improvements to the Offerings during the past 2 years, and now that Anderson has flown off into the Sunset, there are several improvements starting to happen on the LD Trains even as the Pandemic Measures are in effect.

Hopefully full Diner Service will return to the Western LD Trains once we get a handle on the Crisis and things start turning to the "New Normal."

Personally I favor returning to the traditional RR practice of Meals being a la carte, and being able to order your meals in advance while making your reservations!


----------



## IndyLions

Bob Dylan said:


> When I rode the Cap Ltd from WAS to CHI back in Oct. 2018, I received the Amenity Kit which was in my room upon boarding, but I thought the "Fresh and Contemporary" Dinner and Breakfast were the Worst 2 Meals by Far I've ever had on Amtrak!
> 
> There have been several improvements to the Offerings during the past 2 years, and now that Anderson has flown off into the Sunset, there are improvements starting to happen on the LD Trains even during the Pandemic Measures being implemented.
> 
> Hopefully full Diner Serviceceill return to the Western LD Trains once we get a handle on the Crisis and things start turning to the "New Normal."



I agree, but there is a place on any menu for a good charcuterie plate...


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> When I rode the Cap Ltd from WAS to CHI back in Oct. 2018, I received the Amenity Kit which was in my room upon boarding, but I thought the "Fresh and Contemporary" Dinner and Breakfast were the Worst 2 Meals by Far I've ever had on Amtrak!
> 
> There have been several improvements to the Offerings during the past 2 years, and now that Anderson has flown off into the Sunset, there are several improvements starting to happen on the LD Trains even as the Pandemic Measures are in effect.
> 
> Hopefully full Diner Service will return to the Western LD Trains once we get a handle on the Crisis and things start turning to the "New Normal."
> 
> Personally I favor returning to the traditional RR practice of Meals being a la carte, and being able to order your meals in advance while making your reservations!


I DO agree... nothing can replace the 'proper' way of dining on the train... a la carte is always best! That charcuterie plate was good quality and I was making the best of it. Now gone! And what Amtrak is serving now is awful!


----------



## jiml

IndyLions said:


> I agree, but there is a place on any menu for a good charcuterie plate...


American Airlines introduced a decent brand-name charcuterie plate (pre-order only) last year for shorter flights in FC. Probably gone for good now.


----------



## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> I didn’t realize the downgrade in the drink menu. You can’t order a half bottle of wine now.


The size of the free bottle of wine served in flexible dining has always been 180 ml. A "half bottle" is 375 ml. (A whole bottler is 750 ml.) These are standard alcoholic beverage sizes regulated by the Federal government, and I don't think wine is sold in anything smaller. They do have little 50 ml bottles of spirits that are referred to as "miniatures, which are a single serving and is what you get in the cafe car when you order spirits or a mixed drink. (Which, in my experience, you have to mix yourself.)

Are they not offering the half bottles for cash sale anymore?


----------



## MARC Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> When Amtrak started the contemporary meal program it was actually pretty nice… came in a balsa wood box which was handed to you in a reusable cloth shopping bag. The charcuterie plate plate was of impressive quality with a dessert of sea salt caramel; there was also a buffet style area which included extra rolls, desserts, condiments, and drinks. The complementary alcoholic drink included the larger 375 ml wine bottles. In addition to all this, each passenger received an overnight kit with toothbrush, soaps, etc. Soon thereafter the meal downgrades kicked in to where many of us have become offended. I enjoyed the initial meal offerings on two trips taken on the Lakeshore Limited.
> View attachment 17538


I remember hearing complains about the cold meals. So Amtrak tried to fix that with the microwaved hot entrees we have today.... Go figure. You can't please everybody.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> The size of the free bottle of wine served in flexible dining has always been 180 ml. A "half bottle" is 375 ml.



One of the posters on this board says they originally served half bottles. 



MARC Rider said:


> Are they not offering the half bottles for cash sale anymore?



They aren’t listed on the contemporary dining menu.


----------



## pennyk

MARC Rider said:


> The size of the free bottle of wine served in flexible dining has always been 180 ml. A "half bottle" is 375 ml. (A whole bottler is 750 ml.) These are standard alcoholic beverage sizes regulated by the Federal government, and I don't think wine is sold in anything smaller. They do have little 50 ml bottles of spirits that are referred to as "miniatures, which are a single serving and is what you get in the cafe car when you order spirits or a mixed drink. (Which, in my experience, you have to mix yourself.)
> 
> Are they not offering the half bottles for cash sale anymore?


When contemporary dining was first introduced, sleeper passengers were given the option of ordering a half bottle of wine for their free drink (and I did several times). Although the smaller size is offered with flexible dining, half bottles are being sold. The LSA in the sleeper lounge on the Silver Meteor was not selling the half bottles, but they were being sold in the cafe car.


----------



## MARC Rider

OK, here's an alternative I saw today in my local kosher supermarket.




You can, using the magic of chemistry, prepare a hot entree right at your coach seat! There were a couple of other varieties on the shelf, as well. Who knows how they taste? The meatballs are (obviously) all beef, as these are kosher. I ate one of their products during Passover at work a few years ago, and I thought the steam puffing out of the corners of the box during heating was cool, the food quality left something to be desired, but maybe it was because it was the Passover addition, and certain ingredients couldn't be used. Also, the company may have reformulated stuff over the last couple of years.

I don't know whether similar products are available in non-kosher versions (presumably at a lower price).

I might try these on my next rip, but then I might just order the kosher flexible meals in advance, as the varieties on offer look better than the regular stuff.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

pennyk said:


> The LSA in the sleeper lounge on the Silver Meteor was not selling the half bottles, but they were being sold in the cafe car.



That’s good to know! Of course it doesn’t really make sense why they wouldn’t sell them in the diner but that’s nothing new for Amtrak.


----------



## pennyk

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s good to know! Of course it doesn’t really make sense why they wouldn’t sell them in the diner but that’s nothing new for Amtrak.


I am guessing that the LSA in the sleeper lounge was not "selling" anything, thus did not have access to a credit card machine.... or it could have been that this LSA did not want to be bothered.... or he was sold out. This experience was on a fairly recent trip (December 2019), however I seem to recall that LSA were selling second drinks to sleeper passengers earlier in 2019 or in 2018. I usually purchase a half bottle from the cafe car since the small bottle is not "enough" for me. I only tried to purchase in the sleeper lounge once and it was not available, so I walked one car and bought the half bottle from the cafe car.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

pennyk said:


> I am guessing that the LSA in the sleeper lounge was not "selling" anything, thus did not have access to a credit card machine....



Well if they weren’t selling anything they don’t need to be LSA’s correct?

The contemporary menu doesn’t list the half bottles.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

The food service has been on a downward spiral since last October 1... and now the pandemic, it will be interesting to see what happens on the LD trains as well as one night LD's when a cure and vaccine happen. And then there's the Presidential election which could also have an impact. There's hope for re emphasis on high speed rail now that the reduced auto traffic is slowing climate change. One thing's for sure... change on Amtrak has been constant. I know this sounds like a ramble; but we have a lot of things coming together. Let's stay tuned!


----------



## pennyk

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well if they weren’t selling anything they don’t need to be LSA’s correct?
> 
> The contemporary menu doesn’t list the half bottles.


The LSA was heating up and distributing meals and distributing the free beverages.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

pennyk said:


> The LSA was heating up and distributing meals and distributing the free beverages.



Right. I was saying the only reason they need to be an LSA is if they handle money correct?


----------



## pennyk

crescent-zephyr said:


> Right. I was saying the only reason they need to be an LSA is if they handle money correct?


In that particular instance, I do not know. I do not know why that LSA could not sell me a half botttle. Maybe he did not have any more half bottles, but could have sold me a mini bottle, beer, scotch, etc.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

pennyk said:


> In that particular instance, I do not know. I do not know why that LSA could not sell me a half botttle. Maybe he did not have any more half bottles, but could have sold me a mini bottle, beer, scotch, etc.



Sorry... I think I was on a different page or a different track if you want the pun! 

The half bottle is not on the menu, I was saying it’s odd that the half bottle is not on the menu if it’s still being carried and stocked in the lounge car. 

But either way, it’s good to know the half bottles are still available on the train if that’s what one wishes to buy.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

All this discussion about the cost of enjoying wine with dinner... not to forget that in a sleeper accommodation you can bring your own on board... and at a fraction of the cost. From all my travels the best indulgences have been those picnic meals I have brought with me to truly enjoy the journey!


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> it’s good to know the half bottles are still available on the train if that’s what one wishes to buy.



Good to know because a half bottle does not drench my thirst at Happy Hour.


----------



## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> There have been several improvements to the Offerings during the past 2 years, and now that Anderson has flown off into the Sunset, there are several improvements starting to happen on the LD Trains even as the Pandemic Measures are in effect.


Yeah, but he can only do that 3 times a week and no further east than NOL! Unless he uses his free Delta pass which is more likely since he almost assuredly never took a long distance train during his tenure? (or his life?)


----------



## me_little_me

pennyk said:


> The LSA was heating up and distributing meals and distributing the free beverages.


On one trip, I think the LSA was heating up the wine and soft drinks and making you come and get your own meals.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

MARC Rider said:


> OK, here's an alternative I saw today in my local kosher supermarket.
> 
> View attachment 17540
> 
> 
> You can, using the magic of chemistry, prepare a hot entree right at your coach seat! There were a couple of other varieties on the shelf, as well. Who knows how they taste? The meatballs are (obviously) all beef, as these are kosher. I ate one of their products during Passover at work a few years ago, and I thought the steam puffing out of the corners of the box during heating was cool, the food quality left something to be desired, but maybe it was because it was the Passover addition, and certain ingredients couldn't be used. Also, the company may have reformulated stuff over the last couple of years.
> 
> I don't know whether similar products are available in non-kosher versions (presumably at a lower price).
> 
> I might try these on my next rip, but then I might just order the kosher flexible meals in advance, as the varieties on offer look better than the regular stuff.


I noticed on their Web site they also deal meals for the military and correctional facilities; so it makes me wonder just how good these are, especially for the high price.


----------



## davidgreiner828

20th Century Rider said:


> Not only is it one per trip regardless of how long the trip... they've downsized the plastic wine bottles to 'wine minis.' If you want to maximize your 'only one' slim pickin's try the Corona Beer with a lime wedge... that is... if you still can.


Don’t bother with the wine. They served cheap Barefoot Australian wine on the City of New Orleans when which we took in February. Bring your own bottle which is what we normally do. Now, you can find many great wines with twist off tops so you don’t have to worry about a leaky bottle.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

davidgreiner828 said:


> Don’t bother with the wine. They served cheap Barefoot Australian wine on the City of New Orleans when which we took in February. Bring your own bottle which is what we normally do. Now, you can find many great wines with twist off tops so you don’t have to worry about a leaky bottle.



You used to be able to get some pretty good wine on the trains. Especially back in the starlight, builder, & lake shore wine tasting days.

It’s sadly been a while since I rode a full-service diner but the half bottle selections used to be decent.


----------



## hlcteacher

will hve


MARC Rider said:


> OK, here's an alternative I saw today in my local kosher supermarket.
> 
> View attachment 17540
> 
> 
> You can, using the magic of chemistry, prepare a hot entree right at your coach seat! There were a couple of other varieties on the shelf, as well. Who knows how they taste? The meatballs are (obviously) all beef, as these are kosher. I ate one of their products during Passover at work a few years ago, and I thought the steam puffing out of the corners of the box during heating was cool, the food quality left something to be desired, but maybe it was because it was the Passover addition, and certain ingredients couldn't be used. Also, the company may have reformulated stuff over the last couple of years.
> 
> I don't know whether similar products are available in non-kosher versions (presumably at a lower price).
> 
> I might try these on my next rip, but then I might just order the kosher flexible meals in advance, as the varieties on offer look better than the regular stuff.


 to look for these, have never seen them in my market; did see them years ago when i was working with the red cross


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I wonder, could you simply eat an MRE in coach? I mean, you're better off with the boxed meals, but could you?


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> You used to be able to get some pretty good wine on the trains. Especially back in the starlight, builder, & lake shore wine tasting days.
> 
> It’s sadly been a while since I rode a full-service diner but the half bottle selections used to be decent.



In January, the Auto Train still had half bottles of wine available and they were decent, but pricey.


----------



## Dakota 400

Re: Self-heating meals. How does that work? Could not read the small print on the box in the illustration. I did see the price, however. $9.99 for Spaghetti and Meatballs?


----------



## RichieRich

crescent-zephyr said:


> You used to be able to get some pretty good wine on the trains....


Remember when the AutoTrain had the "Wine Tastings" (actually all-you-could-drink...with enough tips. LOL). It was very decent as it was sponsored by local Virginia wineries.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

RichieRich said:


> Remember when the AutoTrain had the "Wine Tastings" (actually all-you-could-drink...with enough tips. LOL). It was very decent as it was sponsored by local Virginia wineries.



I never rode the auto train but it was the same on the empire builder, coast starlight and Lake Shore. Those were the days!


----------



## Katibeth

Has anyone taken sleeper car service on the CL or SM during Covid? I'm curious regarding how your meals are served. I'm hoping you can still have them brought to your room. Any information would be most appreciated. Planning trip Nov/Dec. Thanks again.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

hlcteacher said:


> will hve
> 
> to look for these, have never seen them in my market; did see them years ago when i was working with the red cross


I wonder if they're on Amazon? I'll have to check on that.
Edited to add: "Self-heating meals" search results on Amazon. They do have the kosher 5-Minute Meals similar to those described earlier in this thread, and also some Oriental "hot pot" meals and freeze-dried camping meals, for which you have to add water, but do not need a microwave or other external heating source.


----------



## Barb Stout

Dakota 400 said:


> Re: Self-heating meals. How does that work? Could not read the small print on the box in the illustration. I did see the price, however. $9.99 for Spaghetti and Meatballs?


I wonder if it's like those heating hand and foot warmers where a chemical process is activated by shaking the bag vigorously. The heat ingredients could be kept in a separate compartment within or outside the food compartments. The list of ingredients on the "HotHands" handwarming device I have includes iron powder, salt, water (clearly not very much), activated charcoal, and vermiculite. The package says it can get up to 158 F.


----------



## hlcteacher

thank you, will look for them and give them a try


----------



## RichieRich

Barb Stout said:


> I wonder if it's like those heating hand and foot warmers where a chemical process is activated by shaking the bag vigorously.


The reaction is activated by oxygen.


----------



## Bob Dylan

As I was driving past the Station today (5/25)I happened to see the #22 Texas Eagle arrive on time into Austin today.

So I stopped and watched the De-Training and Boarding and talked with the Agent and Conductor.

The consist was the "Temporary" 1 P-42, Revenue Sleeper,Diner/Lounge,Sightseer Lounge and 2 Coaches.( the Bag Car has been gone for over a Year and the Transdorm is eliminated TFN).

The Crew members are all wearing Gloves and Masks, and Passengees must have space coverings to board.

I was surprised to see about 10 People boarding Coach ( no-one got off) and 3 board the Sleeper.Fares are still Mid to High Bucket for Sleepers, but Saver Fares are plentiful in Coach since ridership is down 80-90%!!!

The agent told me that two of the Regular Agents have been placed on the Extra Board ( there are 4 Agents in Austin) and that there is No Overtime @ all.

The Diner is passing out the Boxed Meals to Sleeper Passengers only to eat in their Rooms or the Lounge. The downstairs tables are closed in the Cafe and only 1 person @ a time is allowed into the cafe.

Also we discussed the restaffing of the Stations in Marshall and Texarkana. Amtrak wants Partime Caretakers with No benefits, the Union Regular Full time hires, but since there is a hiring freeze right now, nothing is happening.

Lastly the Conductor told me that UP and BNSFs freight traffic is way down so the Eagles are running pretty much On Time each day.


----------



## Geordie405

So I thought it might be helpful to recount what happened in practice on my recent trip on the TE from Los Angeles to Chicago.

Having boarded in LA and got settled the LSA stopped by our sleeper to say hello and also to give us our chits for the complimentary drinks. These were white seat tags that he then clipped. It was one per person. At lunch the following day the only white wine available was chardonnay and came in the small, single serve bottles. We declined and ended up having a Stella instead. After leaving San Antonio on what was now the TE proper, we did get another drink for free.

Both LSAs seemed shocked that we wanted to eat in the dining car. We ate all our meals there, except for the BBQ that we had delivered via Uber Eats to the train at Fort Worth. We'd grown fed up with the menu options by then!

Overall, the dining options weren't bad but they weren't great either. Breakfast is just a carb-fest with no healthy options and very limited choice. In terms of the other meals, the penne and meatballs was good as was the creole shrimp and andouille. The chicken fettucine was bland. The red wine braised beef wasn't bad. The side salad was dire. The specialty dessert was either the sugar free vanilla dessert (which wasn't offered by default - you had to ask for it) or a brownie / blondie.

In terms of condiments etc. we had butter and salt but no pepper on the SL, and no salt, pepper or butter on the TE. There was ketchup but no mustard on the SL and, again, no condiments at all on the TE. You could have cranberry juice as a mixer for a drink but not for breakfast. There was also no vodka on the TE but they did have Bacardi. There was no lime / lemon wedges on either train. On the SL the cutlery was rolled up inside the napkin whereas on the TE there were little cellophane packs with cutlery and napkins.

The LSA on the TE out of San Antonio thought that full dining was due to be restored on the long distance trains from early June but according to amtrak.com the flexible dining routine is in effect until 6/30 at least.

Both LSAs did their best with clearly limited resources and were cheerful and friendly although clearly disappointed / embarrassed at the level of service they were able to provide. In terms of number of passengers in the diner, we were two and there was another family of four, an Amish couple, and a father and son - that was all we saw during our journey.

Train consist (for those interested in such things) was 2 x P42s, one Superliner Sleeper (SL), diner, lounge, three coach cars (one labelled out of use - so basically one coach for the SL and one for the TE / 422 portion) and finally our sleeping car (TE). Out of San Antonio we had 1 x P42, our sleeper, diner, lounge and two coach cars.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Geordie405 said:


> So I thought it might be helpful to recount what happened in practice on my recent trip on the TE from Los Angeles to Chicago.
> 
> Having boarded in LA and got settled the LSA stopped by our sleeper to say hello and also to give us our chits for the complimentary drinks. These were white seat tags that he then clipped. It was one per person. At lunch the following day the only white wine available was chardonnay and came in the small, single serve bottles. We declined and ended up having a Stella instead. After leaving San Antonio on what was now the TE proper, we did get another drink for free.
> 
> Both LSAs seemed shocked that we wanted to eat in the dining car. We ate all our meals there, except for the BBQ that we had delivered via Uber Eats to the train at Fort Worth. We'd grown fed up with the menu options by then!
> 
> Overall, the dining options weren't bad but they weren't great either. Breakfast is just a carb-fest with no healthy options and very limited choice. In terms of the other meals, the penne and meatballs was good as was the creole shrimp and andouille. The chicken fettucine was bland. The red wine braised beef wasn't bad. The side salad was dire. The specialty dessert was either the sugar free vanilla dessert (which wasn't offered by default - you had to ask for it) or a brownie / blondie.
> 
> In terms of condiments etc. we had butter and salt but no pepper on the SL, and no salt, pepper or butter on the TE. There was ketchup but no mustard on the SL and, again, no condiments at all on the TE. You could have cranberry juice as a mixer for a drink but not for breakfast. There was also no vodka on the TE but they did have Bacardi. There was no lime / lemon wedges on either train. On the SL the cutlery was rolled up inside the napkin whereas on the TE there were little cellophane packs with cutlery and napkins.
> 
> The LSA on the TE out of San Antonio thought that full dining was due to be restored on the long distance trains from early June but according to amtrak.com the flexible dining routine is in effect until 6/30 at least.
> 
> Both LSAs did their best with clearly limited resources and were cheerful and friendly although clearly disappointed / embarrassed at the level of service they were able to provide. In terms of number of passengers in the diner, we were two and there was another family of four, an Amish couple, and a father and son - that was all we saw during our journey.
> 
> Train consist (for those interested in such things) was 2 x P42s, one Superliner Sleeper (SL), diner, lounge, three coach cars (one labelled out of use - so basically one coach for the SL and one for the TE / 422 portion) and finally our sleeping car (TE). Out of San Antonio we had 1 x P42, our sleeper, diner, lounge and two coach cars.


Meal wise, everything is down now; even those first class seats on trans cons have seen deplorable service. It's kind-a wild and disappointing ride for travelers. Keep your fingers crossed for restored 'real food' in July!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thanks for the report. The vanilla pudding being available would be nice as I can’t eat the brownie. 

I agree the shrimp and sausage dish is decent, I tried it and the beef and the beef was way too salty for me to want to eat ever again.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Dakota 400 said:


> Re: Self-heating meals. How does that work? Could not read the small print on the box in the illustration.





Barb Stout said:


> I wonder if it's like those heating hand and foot warmers where a chemical process is activated by shaking the bag vigorously.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


>



The chef doesn't seem to be relishing the actual taste of the main course... although some components of the meal, such as the drink and crunchies look good as is the protein drink with the powdered coffee. Nice dessert! Really cool is the chemical heating system. As an old timer I wonder how my arthritis ingratiated hands would do with all that taring and ripping; but certainly better than the very boring and tiring flex meals!

This was definitely fun viewing!


----------



## Dakota 400

The recent dining reports do not encourage me to plan another Amtrak journey.

An old Cunard Line advertising slogan: "Getting there is half the fun." "Half the fun" for me are decent meals in the diner on Amtrak.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> The recent dining reports do not encourage me to plan another Amtrak journey.
> 
> An old Cunard Line advertising slogan: "Getting there is half the fun." "Half the fun" for me are decent meals in the diner on Amtrak.


Here it is! My favorite text book of all times... "Homelands Beyond the Seas." When I was in 5th grade at 3rd Street School in Milwaukee Wisconsin, my neighboring classmates were dying of boredom, yet this book launched forever my desire to to travel; and how beautiful travel was in the 1950's. The biggest part of the thrill were those exotic culinary meals served on the Milwaukee Road dining cars... I only rode it a few times because in those days as a child, we weren't rich and rail travel was literally a pipe dream. I cherished this 'textbook' and got my folks to purchase it from the school district. But later on after graduating high school my parents encouraged me to throw away all the old 'junk.' Oh how I miss this beautiful book! And all the dreams it inspired!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Re: Getting there is half the fun... let's never forget those good old days!!! I grew up in Milwaukee after moving from New York so lost the dream of riding the 20th Century Limited. So then it was all about The Milwaukee Road. Only got bits and pieces of that dream from so long ago...


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Having eaten more than a few MREs in my life, I can assure you that the appetizing food tastes bad, and the unappetizing food tastes worse. I think it is abhorrent the food we feed our deployed troops, especially compared to what other nations offer- even Russian rations are considerably more edible.

The fumes from the heating process are not particularly healthy; they suggest on the packaging to avoid inhaling them. I usually used a pot of boiling water to heat the things, and they honestly usually taste just as good (bad) cold.


----------



## railiner

20th Century Rider said:


> Re: Getting there is half the fun... let's never forget those good old days!!! I grew up in Milwaukee after moving from New York so lost the dream of riding the 20th Century Limited. So then it was all about The Milwaukee Road. Only got bits and pieces of that dream from so long ago...



NIce video, thanks for posting! That an impressive 15 car Olympian....


----------



## Bob Dylan

Green Maned Lion said:


> Having eaten more than a few MREs in my life, I can assure you that the appetizing food tastes bad, and the unappetizing food tastes worse. I think it is abhorrent the food we feed our deployed troops, especially compared to what other nations offer- even Russian rations are considerably more edible.
> 
> The fumes from the heating process are not particularly healthy; they suggest on the packaging to avoid inhaling them. I usually used a pot of boiling water to heat the things, and they honestly usually taste just as good (bad) cold.


Compared to C Rations they're Gourmet Fare!( especially the Lima Beans and Ham!!!)


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Dakota 400 said:


> The recent dining reports do not encourage me to plan another Amtrak journey. An old Cunard Line advertising slogan: "Getting there is half the fun." "Half the fun" for me are decent meals in the diner on Amtrak.


I think if Amtrak had followed the (previous) policy of the Silver Star and reduced fares to account for the substantial reduction in service it wouldn't feel like such a slap in the face.



Green Maned Lion said:


> The fumes from the heating process are not particularly healthy; they suggest on the packaging to avoid inhaling them. I usually used a pot of boiling water to heat the things, and they honestly usually taste just as good (bad) cold.


Point well made. 

Field Ration Heaters are designed to be used in open areas with lots of fresh air rather than an enclosed space where the fumes can accumulate and the heat can warp or melt interior surfaces. From what I've read the guy in the video has a custom setup for recording this process that takes such factors into consideration, but that he's also gotten sick enough to require hospitalization in the past. This was most likely a result of consuming expired food but it's also possible he suffered some level of inhalation poisoning. If passengers tried to use these heaters on Amtrak it would risk creating a safety hazard or getting them booted from the train. Maybe the ideal solution is a user accessible microwave that employs a dryer-like external exhaust path with a built-in smoke detector connected to an auto shutoff circuit?


----------



## NativeSon5859

I’m currently on the Sunset Limited in a roomette, and just after we departed New Orleans, the SA from the diner came in and said hello. He offered me the continental breakfast if I wanted it. I had already eaten because up until flexible dining started, lunch was always the first meal out of NOL. Anyway a menu was already in my room so I gave him my order. He asked me what time I’d like to have lunch and that was that. Very nice crew on this train so far.


----------



## Bob Dylan

NativeSon5859 said:


> I’m currently on the Sunset Limited in a roomette, and just after we departed New Orleans, the SA from the diner came in and said hello. He offered me the continental breakfast if I wanted it. I had already eaten because up until flexible dining started, lunch was always the first meal out of NOL. Anyway a menu was already in my room so I gave him my order. He asked me what time I’d like to have lunch and that was that. Very nice crew on this train so far.


Can you eat in the Diner on the Sunset or is Room delivery Mandatory?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Oh my! It’s really sad when the discussion turns to army field rations to escape the relentless and tasteless ‘contemporary’ dining… with 1st class sleeper accommodations costing so so so much $$$. Ridiculous! Most understand the pandemic has necessitated temporary changes but who can be blamed for deferring discretionary rail travel which over time has been a consistent progression of digression.

As for comfort, the Superliners are 50 years old and very expensive to maintain. The ventilation and temperature controls can be too hot or too cold… toilets frequently stop up and must receive ‘maintenance enroute or go without!’ Much of the bedding and folding tables are broken. 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the upcoming election, and growing environmental concerns. Personally I would like to see the offensive 'flex dining' disappear on ALL the trains in favor of either better food or lower prices and [dreaming] new rolling stock. I certainly don't want to schedule any future trips until there is some glimmer of light.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

NativeSon5859 said:


> I’m currently on the Sunset Limited in a roomette, and just after we departed New Orleans, the SA from the diner came in and said hello. He offered me the continental breakfast if I wanted it. I had already eaten because up until flexible dining started, lunch was always the first meal out of NOL. Anyway a menu was already in my room so I gave him my order. He asked me what time I’d like to have lunch and that was that. Very nice crew on this train so far.


Sounds like you have a good SA... that makes a big difference! Lots of nostalgic views as you leave NOL. Despite my rant about flex meals and the old rolling stock... there is nothing like a train. Have a great trip!!!


----------



## NativeSon5859

Bob Dylan said:


> Can you eat in the Diner on the Sunset or is Room delivery Mandatory?



You can do either one.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think if Amtrak had followed the (previous) policy of the Silver Star and reduced fares to account for the substantial reduction in service it wouldn't feel like such a slap in the face.
> 
> 
> Point well made.
> 
> Field Ration Heaters are designed to be used in open areas with lots of fresh air rather than an enclosed space where the fumes can accumulate and the heat can warp or melt interior surfaces. From what I've read the guy in the video has a custom setup for recording this process that takes such factors into consideration, but that he's also gotten sick enough to require hospitalization in the past. This was most likely a result of consuming expired food but it's also possible he suffered some level of inhalation poisoning. If passengers tried to use these heaters on Amtrak it would risk creating a safety hazard or getting them booted from the train. Maybe the ideal solution is a user accessible microwave that employs a dryer-like external exhaust path with a built-in smoke detector connected to an auto shutoff circuit?



Oh, Steve? I find his videos fascinating but he belongs in a looney bin. Eating 80 year old field rations, it’s amazing he isn’t dead.

me, I’d be dead fromthe heartache of spending thousands on such a thing and then destroying it.


----------



## DCAKen

railiner said:


> NIce video, thanks for posting! That an impressive 15 car Olympian....



The full 40-minute travelogue is here:


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Green Maned Lion said:


> Oh, Steve? I find his videos fascinating but he belongs in a looney bin. Eating 80 year old field rations, it’s amazing he isn’t dead. me, I’d be dead fromthe heartache of spending thousands on such a thing and then destroying it.


I can't speak to his willingness to suffer multiple hospital visits with serious food poisoning but spending thousands on old rations is how he makes money rather than loses it. The vast majority of his reviews are at least somewhat favorable and very few of his meals are sold to consumers. So his content is considered advertiser-friendly (for now) and he has previously indicated that many of his meals come from trades and donations so I'd imagine the overall expense ratio is quite favorable. I can't say he's _not_ crazy but he does seem to be getting a bit more careful over time. Some items he leaves alone and others he only taps with his finger before tasting. I've even seen him get out a microscope to look for evidence of spoilage.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

DCAKen said:


> The full 40-minute travelogue is here:



Thank you DCAKen!!! Will be enjoying this often


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Devil's Advocate said:


> I can't speak to his willingness to suffer multiple hospital visits with serious food poisoning but spending thousands on old rations is how he makes money rather than loses it. The vast majority of his reviews are at least somewhat favorable and very few of his meals are sold to consumers. So his content is considered advertiser-friendly (for now) and he has previously indicated that many of his meals come from trades and donations so I'd imagine the overall expense ratio is quite favorable. I can't say he's _not_ crazy but he does seem to be getting a bit more careful over time. Some items he leaves alone and others he only taps with his finger before tasting. I've even seen him get out a microscope to look for evidence of spoilage.


I’m sure he makes good money; it would still give me indigestion. He might be crazy like a fox with the way he runs his business, but still crazy.


----------



## niemi24s

This is a 1917 era USGS Topo Map showing, I believe, what's seen beginning at 19:09 of the above video:




This 27 mile portion of the now-abandoned route lies between Avery ID and Taft/Saltese MT and had 17 tunnels and 9 bridges. I imagine it was quite an eye-popping segment of the journey.

[edited to add] Unfortunately, its timetable... The Olympian Hiawatha - July, 1956 - Streamliner Schedules ...indicates it would be kind of dark if on time.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

niemi24s said:


> This 27 mile portion of the now-abandoned route lies between Avery ID and Taft/Saltese MT and had 17 tunnels and 9 bridges. I imagine it was quite an eye-popping segment of the journey..



It depends on whether not any of them were Lloyd Bridges.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

niemi24s said:


> This is a 1917 era USGS Topo Map showing, I believe, what's seen beginning at 19:09 of the above video:
> 
> View attachment 17676
> 
> 
> This 27 mile portion of the now-abandoned route lies between Avery ID and Taft/Saltese MT and had 17 tunnels and 9 bridges. I imagine it was quite an eye-popping segment of the journey.
> 
> [edited to add] Unfortunately, its timetable... The Olympian Hiawatha - July, 1956 - Streamliner Schedules ...indicates it would be kind of dark if on time.


THANKS for the info... this is a great site; also like to route map of all the era the streamliners!


----------



## tricia

Dakota 400 said:


> The recent dining reports do not encourage me to plan another Amtrak journey.
> 
> An old Cunard Line advertising slogan: "Getting there is half the fun." "Half the fun" for me are decent meals in the diner on Amtrak.



Amtrak REALLY needs better and more "flex dining" choices for the western trains. Multiple days of nothing but what's currently on offer is truly awful to contemplate (let alone eat). I've booked a trip Memphis to NOL to Tucson and then Winslow to Chicago to DC to Toccoa in September, in roomettes. Hope the selection improves by then. If not, I'm going to need to bring quite a pile of food along with me.


----------



## stx

Two of the common sources of poor customer experiences mentioned in this thread are the frequency of the food items being sold out early, and the ability of an Amtrak employee with a "difficult" personality to put a damper on a trip. Both of these often result in vouchers being given to customers as compensation for Amtrak not meeting basic expectations, and many of the commenters point out Amtrak's limited budget. I recognize that Amtrak has plenty of wonderful employees, but I can't think of any other business that wastes so much money due to what seem to be poor inventory management and the almost-expected poor attitudes of so many customer-facing employees. The grumpy employees must also have a huge morale impact on the numerous friendly employees. Just imagine how much Amtrak could save financially in terms of revenue lost via vouchers, and in terms of revenue gained via repeat customers, by simply planning ahead for a better supply of meal items and finding a way to improve employee attitudes. Maybe I'm oversimplifying these issues or their solutions, though.


----------



## railiner

I haven't heard of Amtrak giving out voucher's for the reasons outlined above...I have gotten them for very late (3-5 hours) arrivals....


----------



## 20th Century Rider

stx said:


> Two of the common sources of poor customer experiences mentioned in this thread are the frequency of the food items being sold out early, and the ability of an Amtrak employee with a "difficult" personality to put a damper on a trip. Both of these often result in vouchers being given to customers as compensation for Amtrak not meeting basic expectations, and many of the commenters point out Amtrak's limited budget. I recognize that Amtrak has plenty of wonderful employees, but I can't think of any other business that wastes so much money due to what seem to be poor inventory management and the almost-expected poor attitudes of so many customer-facing employees. The grumpy employees must also have a huge morale impact on the numerous friendly employees. Just imagine how much Amtrak could save financially in terms of revenue lost via vouchers, and in terms of revenue gained via repeat customers, by simply planning ahead for a better supply of meal items and finding a way to improve employee attitudes. Maybe I'm oversimplifying these issues or their solutions, though.


I agree with every word of what you said... your service attendant can make or break the trip. I travel often on the Empire Builder and breathe a sigh of relief when I get a good attendant... and then tip generously. Conversely when I get a grouch who refuses to serve dinner in my H compartment I complain. Wide variances of attendant service and attitudes have long been an issue with Amtrak. Haven't been riding since the pandemic but can well imagine riding for days with those tiny tasteless 'flex' meals can be a drag. Even the prior full menu got monotonous with 30+ days of riding each year. I wonder what things will look like when full service returns. I also wonder if the pro Amtrak presidential candidate is elected will he boost needed funding???


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Imagine you work for Amtrak. Positions are being cut left and right. There is a high likelihood the long-distance network will not be here a year from now, and if it is there will be much fewer positions to fill. How positive would your employee attitude be?


----------



## IndyLions

Green Maned Lion said:


> Imagine you work for Amtrak. Positions are being cut left and right. There is a high likelihood the long-distance network will not be here a year from now, and if it is there will be much fewer positions to fill. How positive would your employee attitude be?


That would be a valid point if this were a recent phenomenon. We all know it’s not.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Green Maned Lion said:


> Imagine you work for Amtrak. Positions are being cut left and right. There is a high likelihood the long-distance network will not be here a year from now, and if it is there will be much fewer positions to fill. How positive would your employee attitude be?


Certainly there is upset and there is plenty of sympathy from passengers... who might want to discuss, console, and talk... with empathy. But the passenger is a positive... the passenger is revenue; and most passengers care about the survival of Amtrak, and most want to appreciate the staff with a nice tip. To underserve, be rude, or to abuse an innocent passenger is not ok, regardless.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Green Maned Lion said:


> Imagine you work for Amtrak. Positions are being cut left and right. There is a high likelihood the long-distance network will not be here a year from now, and if it is there will be much fewer positions to fill. How positive would your employee attitude be?


It's hard to envision someone clueless enough to assume Amtrak was a rock solid career choice also being fazed by rumors that it could be defunded in the next budget debate. Nearly every nonessential job is at risk right now but I don't see every employee shrugging their shoulders or giving me the stink eye just because they don't know what might happen tomorrow. If anything most seem thankful to have a job in an era of severe adversity and I feel the same way.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

IndyLions said:


> That would be a valid point if this were a recent phenomenon. We all know it’s not.



Your point would be valid if my point was an entirely recent phenomenon; it isn't. Amtrak has been threatened with discontinuations and elimination since at least May 1st, 1971.



20th Century Rider said:


> To underserve, be rude, or to abuse an innocent passenger is not ok, regardless.



I do not dispute you, at all. Just because I am identifying a empathetic reason for why some at Amtrak are grumpier and less pleasant than they should be does not justify the behavior. I am suggesting a reason; I do not suggest an excuse.



Devil's Advocate said:


> It's hard to envision someone clueless enough to assume Amtrak was a rock solid career choice also being fazed by rumors that it could be defunded in the next budget debate. Nearly every nonessential job is at risk right now but I don't see every employee shrugging their shoulders or giving me the stink eye just because they don't know what might happen tomorrow. If anything most seem thankful to have a job in an era of severe adversity and I feel the same way.



I got a friend, which is remarkable, frankly. Well there might be two or three on earth, especially if you can consider family friends, but I'm referring to one of them. He is transit dependent, lonely, and historically not happy about it. I cite him as an example because I know so few people personally, and consider myself weird enough that self-citing as an example is unreasonable, although in my way I concur with him.

All he can think about is that the coronavirus is coming for his transit, and how the social distancing prevents him from meeting people. At present I can drive a car, and as far as I'm concerned, social distancing is generally speaking a pleasure. But my point is, all he sees is how it impacts him. All I can think about is how this is impacting my income and my money. I recognize the rest; infact I am aware that if your name isn't Jeff Bezos, this pandemic is inflicting upon everyone pain.

But the truth is, Amtrak employees who are grumpy and obnoxious are probably also self-facing and looking at the negative sides of how this effects them. Some people can see the positive and experience gratitude at what they really do have; those people are usually the cheerful ones. Some can't see the positive when there are any negatives present- those are the Amtrak workers you complain about. 

The truth is, Mr. Advocate, job security has not really been a thing for about 50 years now. No matter what you do. I know, because I have constantly suffered from problems of job security, and I generally own the employer.


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## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> I haven't heard of Amtrak giving out voucher's for the reasons outlined above...I have gotten them for very late (3-5 hours) arrivals....



I’ve gotten vouchers for dining car complaints regarding staff behavior.


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## Barb Stout

stx said:


> but I can't think of any other business that wastes so much money due to what seem to be poor inventory management


I have eaten at plenty of restaurants that run out of certain types of meals or food items.


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## Green Maned Lion

Barb Stout said:


> I have eaten at plenty of restaurants that run out of certain types of meals or food items.



I think you might be eating in the wrong restaurants. It’s not a problem I generally encounter, although I avoid sit-down chains like the plague.


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## Rasputin

My wife and I traveled on the Lake Shore round trip in May 2018 (if I have the year correct) just a couple weeks before the discontinuance of the diner-lite service and the introduction of contemporary dining. I was expected to encounter demoralized crews in the dining car but to my surprise service was great and crew morale seemed to be very good.


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## 20th Century Rider

Out of fairness to both Amtrak employees and patrons, we all want the trains to keep running, and keep running well. We are ALL dealing with unstable and inconsistent administration, funding, and national priority. As for justification for a national rail system… well, er, ummm… global warming, fuel issues, highway congestion, and choice for those who prefer not to own a car or pack in like a sardine in the flying tubes. They there is the natural beauty of the country which can best be enjoyed while relaxing in the train. It’s also about national pride and travel support for the citizenry. Every developed country in the world enjoys growing mass transit and high speed long distance service with the support of the government as a service for its people. Do a Google check out not only Europe and Asia, do check out India, Turkey, North - Central - and South Africa. Why can't we do that too??? Check out below on fast developing plans for extensive rail system in Africa and India.


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## west point

The Indian picture shows more tracks together than we can see any where in the USA


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## Bob Dylan

Green Maned Lion said:


> Imagine you work for Amtrak. Positions are being cut left and right. There is a high likelihood the long-distance network will not be here a year from now, and if it is there will be much fewer positions to fill. How positive would your employee attitude be?


That's why the Union and we need to get busy letting our Congress Critters to fully fund Amtrsk and save the OBS jobs and LD Trains!!


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## Bob Dylan

Green Maned Lion said:


> Your point would be valid if my point was an entirely recent phenomenon; it isn't. Amtrak has been threatened with discontinuations and elimination since at least May 1st, 1971.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not dispute you, at all. Just because I am identifying a empathetic reason for why some at Amtrak are grumpier and less pleasant than they should be does not justify the behavior. I am suggesting a reason; I do not suggest an excuse.
> 
> 
> 
> I got a friend, which is remarkable, frankly. Well there might be two or three on earth, especially if you can consider family friends, but I'm referring to one of them. He is transit dependent, lonely, and historically not happy about it. I cite him as an example because I know so few people personally, and consider myself weird enough that self-citing as an example is unreasonable, although in my way I concur with him.
> 
> All he can think about is that the coronavirus is coming for his transit, and how the social distancing prevents him from meeting people. At present I can drive a car, and as far as I'm concerned, social distancing is generally speaking a pleasure. But my point is, all he sees is how it impacts him. All I can think about is how this is impacting my income and my money. I recognize the rest; infact I am aware that if your name isn't Jeff Bezos, this pandemic is inflicting upon everyone pain.
> 
> But the truth is, Amtrak employees who are grumpy and obnoxious are probably also self-facing and looking at the negative sides of how this effects them. Some people can see the positive and experience gratitude at what they really do have; those people are usually the cheerful ones. Some can't see the positive when there are any negatives present- those are the Amtrak workers you complain about.
> 
> The truth is, Mr. Advocate, job security has not really been a thing for about 50 years now. No matter what you do. I know, because I have constantly suffered from problems of job security, and I generally own the employer.


Lots of valid points Lion! Chris has them too! Yall arent as far apart as you might think on your positions!


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## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Lots of valid points Lion! Chris has them too! Yall arent as far apart as you might think on your positions!


And I agree with you Bob Dylan! You are good at keeping the discussions focused and positive. I always look for your posts and always appreciate what you have to say!


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## niemi24s

> The Indian picture shows more tracks together than we can see any where in the USA


I wonder if the fact that we have about 38 times more cars (on a per capita basis) than in India... List of countries by vehicles per capita - Wikipedia ... could possibly have something to do with it?

Perhaps the solution is to reduce the number of cars on the roads in the USA by draconian taxation so we could enjoy the resulting benefits of rail travel travel like the folks here: The tough task of reviving India's decaying railways


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## Devil's Advocate

niemi24s said:


> I wonder if the fact that we have about 38 times more cars (on a per capita basis) than in India... List of countries by vehicles per capita - Wikipedia ... could possibly have something to do with it?


Well of course that explains it. I mean the cars got here first and then the trains showed up and people were like why would we rip up perfectly good roads to put tracks down that's just stupid. Oh, wait.


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## crescent-zephyr

For whatever reason, this country has chosen to embrace personal vehicles and air travel. The amount of short-range flights that operate in this country is pretty odd, imho. 

While flights will always win for travel time on long distance, cross country trips. They really don’t make sense for short hops that should be traveled by rail or efficient inter-city bus. 

When you spend more time pushing back and getting to the runway than your actual travel time, it’s just PLANE (pun intended) silly!


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## 20th Century Rider

niemi24s said:


> I wonder if the fact that we have about 38 times more cars (on a per capita basis) than in India... List of countries by vehicles per capita - Wikipedia ... could possibly have something to do with it?


Yes... for sure India has greater population density; however, the megalopolis areas in the USA would certainly warrant corridor rapid transit... not only in the Washington to Boston east, but in the Detroit - Chicago - St. Louis corridor... which has high speed rail underway but due to funding problems doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Also high speed is planned in FLA as well as Texas; and the San Francisco - LA - San Diego - Las Vegas areas. Difference is the lack of priority here and how slow the progress has been... pushing rail development well behind that of other countries.


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## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Well of course that explains it. I mean the cars got here first and then the trains showed up and people were like why would we rip up perfectly good roads to put tracks down that's just stupid. Oh, wait.
> 
> View attachment 17724


What a sad sight! All those absolutely gorgeous trolley cars junked!?!?!? So... after we ripped up the rails and made them into trails and roads... we realize that there is a connection between global warming and the smog coming out of the car exhaust. If you look at the above picture, all those 36 rail cars with the potential of carrying 1000 passengers had less exhaust than one car carrying one person. Hindsight now, but let's rewind. Let's rebuild. And it's happening in cities everywhere!


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## niemi24s

20th Century Rider said:


> . . .all those 36 rail cars with the potential of carrying 1000 passengers had less exhaust than one car carrying one person.


Of course they had less exhaust - being electric, they had NO exhaust. Of course the power plant that provided their electricity was probably coal-fired. And we all know old coal-fired power plants had virtually no exhaust. Don't we? Sure we do! For I have decreed that to be the truth!!!


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## 20th Century Rider

niemi24s said:


> Of course they had less exhaust - being electric, they had NO exhaust. Of course the power plant that provided their electricity was probably coal-fired. And we all know old coal-fired power plants had virtually no exhaust. Don't we? Sure we do! For I have decreed that to be the truth!!!


... and dams harnessing power from falling water not requiring coal


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## cocojacoby

The attitude thing has been going on for years. I often went into a grumpy atmosphere dining car and wondered why Amtrak employees hated their job so much.


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## MARC Rider

cocojacoby said:


> The attitude thing has been going on for years. I often went into a grumpy atmosphere dining car and wondered why Amtrak employees hated their job so much.


Where are these "grumpy atmosphere" dining cars? I've been riding long distance trains once or twice a year for the past 20 years, and I've never had an experience with rude staff, and when the service hasn't been as efficient as it could be, that's more of an issue of the way the operation seems to be managed, not because the workers appear to be lazy or have "bad attitude."


----------



## jloewen

stx said:


> Two of the common sources of poor customer experiences mentioned in this thread are the frequency of the food items being sold out early, and the ability of an Amtrak employee with a "difficult" personality to put a damper on a trip. Both of these often result in vouchers being given to customers as compensation for Amtrak not meeting basic expectations, and many of the commenters point out Amtrak's limited budget. I recognize that Amtrak has plenty of wonderful employees, but I can't think of any other business that wastes so much money due to what seem to be poor inventory management and the almost-expected poor attitudes of so many customer-facing employees. The grumpy employees must also have a huge morale impact on the numerous friendly employees. Just imagine how much Amtrak could save financially in terms of revenue lost via vouchers, and in terms of revenue gained via repeat customers, by simply planning ahead for a better supply of meal items and finding a way to improve employee attitudes. Maybe I'm oversimplifying these issues or their solutions, though.


You are exactly right. There should be no room for employees who are OK with being rude to customers.


----------



## me_little_me

Green Maned Lion said:


> Imagine you work for Amtrak. Positions are being cut left and right. There is a high likelihood the long-distance network will not be here a year from now, and if it is there will be much fewer positions to fill. How positive would your employee attitude be?


The complaint is justified. But taking it out on the customer is the opposite of what one should do. It's the customer who can help by writing to Amtrak. Instead of getting the union to better publicize the plight of employees, those that take it out on their potential supporters are just pushing their jobs over the cliff if people just get so disgusted, they stop taking the train.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Where are these "grumpy atmosphere" dining cars? I've been riding long distance trains once or twice a year for the past 20 years, and I've never had an experience with rude staff, and when the service hasn't been as efficient as it could be, that's more of an issue of the way the operation seems to be managed, not because the workers appear to be lazy or have "bad attitude."



With odds like that I’d buy a lottery ticket if I were you! 

There are wonderful Amtrak dining car employees out there. But there are some truly bad ones too.


----------



## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve gotten vouchers for dining car complaints regarding staff behavior.


Now that truly surprises me...I can understand getting them for being inconvenienced by a documented very late arrival...but due to perceived rudeness? That is a subjective opinion, that unless verified somehow with a video, or witness testimony, cannot be documented. I am not disputing that employees have indeed been rude, just surprised that a complaint proves sufficient grounds for being compensated...


----------



## cocojacoby

MARC Rider said:


> Where are these "grumpy atmosphere" dining cars? I've been riding long distance trains once or twice a year for the past 20 years, and I've never had an experience with rude staff, and when the service hasn't been as efficient as it could be, that's more of an issue of the way the operation seems to be managed, not because the workers appear to be lazy or have "bad attitude."


 
Silver Service mostly. They make you feel as you enter the car like you are invading their space. The attitude is there. And don't get me started on how they take up two tables for all of their setups and personal stuff.

One trip to Tampa on the Star we went into the dining car around noon. We were due in around 12:45 I believe. The crew was all sitting around chatting and told us they wouldn't be opening until after Tampa! What?

We went back to our room and the attendant asked us why we were back so fast so we told her what happened. She said you go back there and tell them that you are entitled to your lunch and serve you. We did. They reluctantly cooked us up two burgers. We were the only passengers in the car. The attitude is bad, period.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Green Maned Lion said:


> I think you might be eating in the wrong restaurants. It’s not a problem I generally encounter, although I avoid sit-down chains like the plague.



No, its just the reality of restaurants.

My kid is a chef. He will bake "X" chicken pot pies, or "Y" regular pies, as part of this daily prep tasks. If there is an atypical run on them, the waitstaff will have to apologize and inform customers they are out. 

Restaurants that regularly prepare food excessively, will soon be out of business. ☠


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## Cho Cho Charlie

cocojacoby said:


> And don't get me started on how they take up two tables for all of their setups and personal stuff.



I thought they only served a fixed number of tables, regardless of the equipment they are on for that trip. If you sat yourself at one of those two tables, you would probably never be served. Do you really want that?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I thought they only served a fixed number of tables, regardless of the equipment they are on for that trip. If you sat yourself at one of those two tables, you would probably never be served. Do you really want that?



It depends on the staffing. Many times, Amtrak dining Cars are not staffed to be able to seat all tables.

I do think it looks bad to have staff and supplies spread out on tables in the dining room, but that’s how Amtrak does it. (It’s not a dining car thing, VIA rail manages to use the stewards desk and storage areas as originally designed).


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## Qapla

I guess I'm glad I have never used a sleeper on the Silvers - I ride coach. I have ridden both the Silvers and have never had a rude attendant or server in the coach car or the café car - and, yes, I have taken the Star to and from Tampa.

I will agree that they use a table in the café for their stuff, but I have not seen them using all the tables - or even multiple ones if there were passengers who needed a seat.


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## crescent-zephyr

I’ve had had great dining car servers on the silver trains, and some that were just ok. The absolute worst dining car crews I’ve seen were on the coast starlight. But again I had some good crews on that train too. Just depends who you get.


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## IndyLions

railiner said:


> Now that truly surprises me...I can understand getting them for being inconvenienced by a documented very late arrival...but due to perceived rudeness? That is a subjective opinion, that unless verified somehow with a video, or witness testimony, cannot be documented. I am not disputing that employees have indeed been rude, just surprised that a complaint proves sufficient grounds for being compensated...



I don’t find it surprising at all. I’ve worked with customers for many years, just in a totally different industry.

Companies that are successful especially in the customer service area often go by the mantra that “the customer is always right.” Of course they know that is not explicitly true, but they also know another mantra “it’s easier/cheaper to keep an existing customer then to find a new one”.

Instead of trying to prove that the customer is correct or incorrect, a modest voucher to encourage the customer to give the product/service another try is often employed in the many industries. We use it in our business when customers complain. Sometimes their complaints are quite justified – and other times we know they’re just blowing off steam for a situation beyond our control. In either case, it’s something we use to try and retain customers and more importantly to treat customers fairly. Because we know we don’t always screw up - but we aren’t perfect either.


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## jiml

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> No, its just the reality of restaurants.
> 
> My kid is a chef. He will bake "X" chicken pot pies, or "Y" regular pies, as part of this daily prep tasks. If there is an atypical run on them, the waitstaff will have to apologize and inform customers they are out.
> 
> Restaurants that regularly prepare food excessively, will soon be out of business. ☠


This is a very accurate statement. One small restaurant we patronize (not lately  ) always has a finite number of "the special", which is usually pretty good. It's understood that if you want it you go early. They're just too small to be able to afford to "over-prepare".


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> The absolute worst dining car crews I’ve seen were on the coast starlight.


Without question. Made me very glad of the PPC when running.


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## MARC Rider

cocojacoby said:


> Silver Service mostly. They make you feel as you enter the car like you are invading their space. The attitude is there. And don't get me started on how they take up two tables for all of their setups and personal stuff.
> 
> One trip to Tampa on the Star we went into the dining car around noon. We were due in around 12:45 I believe. The crew was all sitting around chatting and told us they wouldn't be opening until after Tampa! What?
> 
> We went back to our room and the attendant asked us why we were back so fast so we told her what happened. She said you go back there and tell them that you are entitled to your lunch and serve you. We did. They reluctantly cooked us up two burgers. We were the only passengers in the car. The attitude is bad, period.


The Silver Service is one in which I've done a lot of my riding. Once I had a waiter at lunch who was a bit slow. But his attitude was OK. I've never had anyone kicking me out because they didn't want to work. As for the tables set up for crew, well, that's a bit unprofessional looking, but as long as I get seated and served, what do I, as a passenger care? (And one problem with our society in general is that we care more about appearances than about more substantive things.)


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## niemi24s

west point said:


> The Indian picture shows more tracks together than we can see any where in the USA


Bullfeathers!

Open up Google Earth and lay your Orphan Annies on the Bailey Yard outside of North Platte NE. If you can count, you'll find about seven times as many tracks as in the Indian picture.


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## west point

I was talking about Passenger train locations.l


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## me_little_me

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> No, its just the reality of restaurants.
> 
> My kid is a chef. He will bake "X" chicken pot pies, or "Y" regular pies, as part of this daily prep tasks. If there is an atypical run on them, the waitstaff will have to apologize and inform customers they are out.
> 
> Restaurants that regularly prepare food excessively, will soon be out of business. ☠


Making a chicken pot pie can take some time if it is made from scratch or even from a frozen state. Does he have to do the same with the burgers? Or the regular (pre-cooked) chicken? Is he limited to the same four entrees every dinner for months on end? On Amtrak, that includes the vegetables and potatoes. They have had only the one salad (unless it's a lunch entree) every day for the last hundred years.

IMHO, Amtrak chefs are only chefs in the sense that they can get creative (if they want) more by the presentation than the product.


----------



## railiner

To think, in the early '90's, Amtrak invested a small fortune sending all of their chef's to the prestigious Culinary Institute of America, for a cooking course.
After that, each full diner menu would offer a 'chef's special', created by each chef....(sigh)....


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## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> IMHO, Amtrak chefs are only chefs in the sense that they can get creative (if they want) more by the presentation than the product.



Well your opinion is wrong according to the new oxford dictionary - 

chef
noun
a professional cook, typically the chief cook in a restaurant or hotel.


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## Palmetto

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well your opinion is wrong according to the new oxford dictionary -
> 
> chef
> noun
> a professional cook, typically the chief cook in a restaurant or hotel.




If you google Chef vs. cook, there's a different perspective.

Difference Between Chef and Cook


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## crescent-zephyr

Palmetto said:


> If you google Chef vs. cook, there's a different perspective.
> 
> Difference Between Chef and Cook



Yes.. the dictionary is wrong, but the internet is right! 

Also... in the real world the person in charge of a commercial kitchen is a chef. At Disney World for example... if you have a question about ingredients because of an allergy, you have to talk to a “chef” there is a chef at a food court or a snack bar. 

Now Disney world also has chefs at AAA 4 and 5 diamond restaurants. Disney knows the qualifications are crazy different for the chef at the pop century food court and Victoria & Alberts. But the title is the same. 

Many of the Amtrak dining car chefs actually do have culinary education. Amtrak isn’t hiring people off the street for those jobs, it’s not a simple or easy thing to do. 

Of course... it’s a silly point to make now. The LSA’s who are heating up the frozen dinners are not chefs or cooks.


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## StanJazz

New MSN story about Amtrak dining.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/people-hated-amtrak-s-new-airline-style-meals-so-much-they-filed-125-pages-of-complaints-in-the-first-year-after-the-change/ar-BB15iWl4?ocid=msedgntp


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## 20th Century Rider

StanJazz said:


> New MSN story about Amtrak dining.
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/people-hated-amtrak-s-new-airline-style-meals-so-much-they-filed-125-pages-of-complaints-in-the-first-year-after-the-change/ar-BB15iWl4?ocid=msedgntp


No way to run a railroad!!!


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## NativeSon5859

Funny thing, I didn't have a problem with the new meals. The portions were good enough, they tasted fine. The salad was pretty much the same as what was offered before, as were the hot rolls. I tried four out of the five meals on a recent trip. Breakfast was fine... I don't need a heavy meal of pancakes every morning anyway...just wished they'd offer some hard boiled eggs again. I think the only thing missing is some sort of deli sandwich... I didn't really feel like a heavy meal for lunch. Dessert, well... the blondie brownies are actually really good... do I miss the days of the apple pie and cheesecake? Sure, but I've had enough of those to last a lifetime. 

The traditional dining I miss is the traditional dining from the 80's and 90's and early 00's. The 2019 version of traditional dining, with the same menu on every train, average eggs, a passable but not great cheeseburger, and a steak that reminds me of steak night at your local bar, didn't really get me all that excited. Would I say the traditional menu is better than the flexible menu? Yes, but that's not going to stop me from riding.


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## crescent-zephyr

NativeSon5859 said:


> The traditional dining I miss is the traditional dining from the 80's and 90's and early 00's.



Just in the 20 years of 2000’s we went from real traditional dining with multiple cooks in the kitchen and full staff to “simplified dining” which was all pre-prepared... the days of the Bob Evans breakfast scramble.... back to an enhanced simplified dining (a few things cooked on board like eggs and steaks), and then we had the chef inspired menus and true dining service back on trains like the builder, Capitol and starlight.... then the intro of cross country cafe with with the all day menu that lasted only a few months.... 

And now this. Hopefully it will get better again before they totally gut and scrap the diners. 

It’s truly amazing to me how ANYONE who has tried the contemporary dining would defend it... but it takes all of us to make the world go around.


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## Qapla

But, according to the article, 80% of people "like" the new flex dining and meals  according to Amtrak


----------



## Chey

Qapla said:


> But, according to the article, 80% of people "like" the new flex dining and meals  according to Amtrak



Yeah that's why "it's evaluating when it can safely begin full meal service again." Sheesh.


----------



## Manny T

Did Amtrak lie or mislead in response to the Business Insider inquiry? In the article Amtrak is quoted as saying the following:

"While there were approximately 1,200 customer service cases on flexible dining over the specified period of time, ridership on these six routes during this period exceeded 800K," Amtrak said in a statement. "On each route with flexible dining, at least 80% of customers selected a top range score in customer satisfaction surveys."

What relevance is the 800,000 ridership number? We know 800,000 riders didn't try the flexible dining; only sleeping car PAX were offered flexible dining, and not all of them tried them.

The 1,200 customer service cases were generated by a much smaller group than 800,000 riders, yet Amtrak makes it seem otherwise in its response.


----------



## Qapla

Statistics .... the art of making number say whatever you want them to say


----------



## me_little_me

Qapla said:


> Statistics .... the art of making number say whatever you want them to say



Some appropriate thoughts on Amtrak's numbers:

“There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” - Benjamin Disraeli 

“Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.” - Mark Twain 

“99 percent of all statistics only tell 49 percent of the story.” - Ron DeLegge II

“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination” - Andrew Lang 

"Figures don’t lie, but liars do figure." - attributed to Mark Twain but the thought preceded him


----------



## Steve4031

If they just had one thing with out all the ingredients mixed together. I don't like the ingredients, and I dont like them mixed together. 

If they had an adult portion of the spaghetti that was consistently available and a choice of a cheeseburger or some sort of deli sandwich this would be tolerable.


----------



## joelkfla

Steve4031 said:


> If they just had one thing with out all the ingredients mixed together. I don't like the ingredients, and I dont like them mixed together.
> 
> If they had an adult portion of the spaghetti that was consistently available and a choice of a cheeseburger or some sort of deli sandwich this would be tolerable.


How about that par-boiled microwavable pasta that's now available in stores, with a choice of separately packaged sauce?


----------



## MARC Rider

Manny T said:


> Did Amtrak lie or mislead in response to the Business Insider inquiry? In the article Amtrak is quoted as saying the following:
> 
> "While there were approximately 1,200 customer service cases on flexible dining over the specified period of time, ridership on these six routes during this period exceeded 800K," Amtrak said in a statement. "On each route with flexible dining, at least 80% of customers selected a top range score in customer satisfaction surveys."
> 
> What relevance is the 800,000 ridership number? We know 800,000 riders didn't try the flexible dining; only sleeping car PAX were offered flexible dining, and not all of them tried them.
> 
> The 1,200 customer service cases were generated by a much smaller group than 800,000 riders, yet Amtrak makes it seem otherwise in its response.


What you want to see is what this change in service has done to sleeping car revenue. Of course, interpreting this year's figures is not going to be easy, as revenue has generally tanked for obvious reasons having nothing to do with the change in food service. I think the best you can do is compare sleeping car revenue performance on the Eastern trains for the period October 2018 to March 2019 with the period October 2019 to March 2020. And this has to be "net revenue," as presumably costs would be lower (they had better be lower, otherwise there was no reason to inflict Contemporary Dining on the eastern trains.)


----------



## Joel Clemmer

20th Century Rider said:


> No way to run a railroad!!!
> View attachment 17780
> 
> View attachment 17781



A few brief replies on the dining issue.

* My problem with flex dining is not just with the food, which is bad. It is also with the ambience. I regard rail travel as a sociable experience and the traditional dining car was a focus. Being guided to a communal table with strangers and all of us being served by staff is almost always a memorable experience, making some of the cost of my ticket worthwhile. Picking up a box of fast food and finding a seat, not wanting to intrude on others (I'm from Minnesota), is a crappy experience. For entertainment, pitch your left overs and wrapping into the big cardboard waste basket.

* I am currently a member of Rail Passenger Association and find them very weak on my issue. OTOH, see the following.

* The RPA lobbied for the newly proposed Invest in America Act which removes the infamous "Mica amendment." That is one sentence directing Amtrak to break even on food service, a rationale on which Airplane Anderson relied heavily. If the Act survives it might mean conceiving food service as a customer experience investment, as it was when railroads made money.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Joel Clemmer said:


> My problem with flex dining is not just with the food, which is bad. It is also with the ambience. I regard rail travel as a sociable experience and the traditional dining car was a focus.



Have you ridden one of the contemporary service trains yet? I was surprised how little I missed the table service and ambiance. If the food quality and choices had been decent, I would actually be fine with the service. 

I will continue to say they should have kept 1 lsa and 1 chef and served a variation of the traditional dining menu.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

Business insider doubles down on Amtrak’s bad food.








Shifting Gears: People really hate Amtrak's new dining options


Here's your rundown of all the transportation news that happened this week, from Uber's failed attempt to buy GrubHub, to Amtrak and more.




www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Qapla

I hate those news websites that won't let you look at them unless you either subscribe or turn off your ad blocker ... needless to say, did not read the article linked above


----------



## crescent-zephyr

AmtrakFlyer said:


> Business insider doubles down on Amtrak’s bad food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shifting Gears: People really hate Amtrak's new dining options
> 
> 
> Here's your rundown of all the transportation news that happened this week, from Uber's failed attempt to buy GrubHub, to Amtrak and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com



The waitress in the photo is a long-time employee of Amtrak- she started on the Broadway Limited. She’s now a sleeping car attendant on the silver trains and she’s just the best.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Oh my, yes—I recognize that wonderful woman!

She was in the dining car for several of my Silver Meteor trips—she always remembered me, seemed truly sorry to see me go when I did a short trip and detrained at ALX, and always gave me a hug.

I am so very glad she got an SCA position—I have been wondering what happened to the wonderful people I knew from the dining crews.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

AmtrakFlyer said:


> Business insider doubles down on Amtrak’s bad food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shifting Gears: People really hate Amtrak's new dining options
> 
> 
> Here's your rundown of all the transportation news that happened this week, from Uber's failed attempt to buy GrubHub, to Amtrak and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


Unfortunately, the full article is behind a paywall. (A 1-month trial for $1 wouldn't be so bad, though, so long as you are auto-renewed at a higher rate afterwards.)


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Joel Clemmer said:


> I regard rail travel as a sociable experience and the traditional dining car was a focus. Being guided to a communal table with strangers and all of us being served by staff is almost always a memorable experience, making some of the cost of my ticket worthwhile.



I agree.

And I'll add that cruises used to be that way too. For breakfast and lunch, in their MDR, you will be seated with strangers, different strangers each time. My family likes to sleep late, but I am a morning person. I would like to go to the MDR for breakfast by myself, and get seated with 11 others. Now (before the whole covid-19 thing), you get seated by "party" which means I get seated at a table all by myself. I haven't been on another cruise, since that change.

I know you all strongly disagree with me, but IMHO, a sleeper class trip on Amtrak was a lot like a cruise. At least, for both, it sadly use to be.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Qapla said:


> I hate those news websites that won't let you look at them unless you either subscribe or turn off your ad blocker ... needless to say, did not read the article linked above


How do you propose they pay their employees then?


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

AmtrakBlue said:


> How do you propose they pay their employees then?


My local regional newspaper's website has viewers who haven't subscribed to their digital edition answer several survey questions (apparently on topics requested by advertisers) to get access to articles. You then can read 5 articles (with a banner ad above each one) before they make you answer more survey questions. If you spring for a digital subscription (or log in as a subscriber to the print edition), you avoid the survey questions altogether, and get fewer ads.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

It was a really short blurb. The writer said he enjoyed his trip from Boston to Seattle last year and was glad the EB had full dining and insinulated he wouldn’t do it again if Contemporary dining was offered.


The articles first sentence is, “There's no reason to ride a train across the United States.” All attributed to the food that people hate in his opinion. I guess he had it on his first leg and wasn’t impressed. At least that’s what I got out of it.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Joel Clemmer said:


> A few brief replies on the dining issue.
> 
> * My problem with flex dining is not just with the food, which is bad. It is also with the ambience. I regard rail travel as a sociable experience and the traditional dining car was a focus. Being guided to a communal table with strangers and all of us being served by staff is almost always a memorable experience, making some of the cost of my ticket worthwhile. Picking up a box of fast food and finding a seat, not wanting to intrude on others (I'm from Minnesota), is a crappy experience. For entertainment, pitch your left overs and wrapping into the big cardboard waste basket.
> 
> * I am currently a member of Rail Passenger Association and find them very weak on my issue. OTOH, see the following.
> 
> * The RPA lobbied for the newly proposed Invest in America Act which removes the infamous "Mica amendment." That is one sentence directing Amtrak to break even on food service, a rationale on which Airplane Anderson relied heavily. If the Act survives it might mean conceiving food service as a customer experience investment, as it was when railroads made money.


'Break even' is an ambiguous concept... reasonable food service is due to passengers paying hundreds for sleeping accommodations. I recently asked the dining car attendant who doles out the flex meals what they actually cost Amtrak; and have been told several times there is much waste. I was also told that it costs Amtrak $25 to produce those tiny hot meals and that is how much an employee must pay if they want one. Expenditures and efficiency come into question. I think its reasonable to see a cutback in meal service until covid gets under control [airlines are doing the same]; but then Amtrak must find better efficiencies! Ending on an interesting note... just as the space program is hiring private enterprise groups to build and operate the rockets, why doesn't Amtrak look at subcontracting food service with vendors COMPETING to provide service?!?!


----------



## Qapla

The same way the print newspaper my wife works for does ... Sell their ads to the advertisers ... that is how it is supposed to work. I should not have to pay to read ads.

The print paper does not require that I read the ads to look at the stories - a website should not require me to look at them either.



Now - back to the regularly scheduled "Flex -Dining"


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> why doesn't Amtrak look at subcontracting food service with vendors COMPETING to provide service?!?!



Who is going to compete for a money losing service?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Qapla said:


> The same way the print newspaper my wife works for does ... Sell their ads to the advertisers ... that is how it is supposed to work. I should not have to pay to read ads.
> 
> The print paper does not require that I read the ads to look at the stories - a website should not require me to look at them either.
> 
> 
> 
> Now - back to the regularly scheduled "Flex -Dining"


Hmm, so the website sells ad space, but they're not supposed to display those ad spaces to non subscribers? Why would someone pay for advertising space if they're not going to be seen?


----------



## joelkfla

AmtrakBlue said:


> Hmm, so the website sells ad space, but they're not supposed to display those ad spaces to non subscribers? Why would someone pay for advertising space if they're not going to be seen?


In this case, it doesn't matter. Even with the ad blocker off, you can't get to the detailed story without a subscription.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Qapla said:


> I hate those news websites that won't let you look at them unless you either subscribe or turn off your ad blocker ... needless to say, did not read the article linked above





Qapla said:


> The same way the print newspaper my wife works for does ... Sell their ads to the advertisers ... that is how it is supposed to work. I should not have to pay to read ads. The print paper does not require that I read the ads to look at the stories - a website should not require me to look at them either.


It's not the 1950's anymore, most people aren't reading newspapers, and online ads alone won't pay the bills. This is an extremely common problem experienced by thousands of news sources that already vanished while you whistled the day away. If you don't think it's worth it to buy news that's fine but can you please stop complaining about your inability to access something for which you refuse to pay?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's not the 1950's anymore, most people aren't reading newspapers, and online ads alone won't pay the bills. This is an extremely common problem experienced by thousands of news sources that already vanished while you whistled the day away. If you don't think it's worth it to buy news that's fine but can you please stop complaining about your inability to access something for which you refuse to pay?


A possible option is to try to google for an answer. Too bad everything is so commercialized with those greedy reaches for $$$.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

20th Century Rider said:


> A possible option is to try to google for an answer. Too bad everything is so commercialized with those greedy reaches for $$$.


When adjusted for inflation a day pass to a news website costs about the same as a single newspaper did when I was a boy. As an adult I want to be paid for my work so why would I expect others to work for free? I hate ads and watch a lot of Youtube so I pay $10 per month to remove most of the ads and help support the folks I watch, which seems fair to me. Sure it would be nice if all information was free and living wages were guaranteed to everyone, but we don't live in that kind of society and until we do people are going to need a way to pay the bills. I don't mind breaking out the pitchforks against commercializing content like public records but it's honestly amazing to me that paying for news and entertainment remains a controversial topic. Nobody's getting rich selling news about Amtrak.


----------



## me_little_me

I personally don't mind paying for service but if I pay, I don't expect to (in fact I demand I should have the right to not) be tracked, be observed by Google analytics, be spammed with "personalized" or other ads, site cookies, third party cookies, trackers, etc.

I dumped my "free" Yahoo email for a paid service ($3/month) that has outstanding service (same day response to tech issues) and no tracking, no ads, with simple interfacing, instructions and help for all sorts of local email programs, and some amazingly advanced features.
But even if you pay (and I pay Amazon for products), you get spammed with garbage. You have to search for their Non-Privacy page to find you may have to write or call them to "opt out" of SOME "services".
Try using a VPN with a European site and see the differences when you connect to a site via that VPN in the U.S. and in Europe. I barely recognized the site because it was so clean and few, if any, cookies.
When media sites guarantee me that if I pay for their service, none of the garbage will exist, then I'll sign up for it. Otherwise, ad blockers, private windows, constant cookie clearing, cookie blocking, VPNs and more are part of the equation.

And if anyone mentions that newspapers always had ads, remember, they were not on page one, were not IN YOUR FACE,not tracking you, not popping out when your mouse (eye) passed near them ,etc.

Edit: Sorry for supporting the "drift from the topic".


----------



## Qapla

Devil's Advocate said:


> If you don't think it's worth it to buy news that's fine but can you please stop complaining about your inability to access something for which you refuse to pay?



No, I won't stop complaining anymore than you will stop trying to enforce that your view is the only right one ... however, even though we both have the "right" to have and/or state our viewpoint - it is off topic to this thread so why don't we just let this subject drop by the wayside and get back to discussing Amtrak instead of news sites.


----------



## tgstubbs1

crescent-zephyr said:


> Have you ridden one of the contemporary service trains yet? I was surprised how little I missed the table service and ambiance. If the food quality and choices had been decent, I would actually be fine with the service.
> 
> I will continue to say they should have kept 1 lsa and 1 chef and served a variation of the traditional dining menu.



Would it be possible (maybe not practical) to have a more luxurious train on a limited basis during the 'high season'?
It would be the 'cruise experience' available once a week. Maybe it would be possible to outsource a private dining car to provide the service


----------



## Dakota 400

tgstubbs1 said:


> Would it be possible (maybe not practical) to have a more luxurious train on a limited basis during the 'high season'?
> It would be the 'cruise experience' available once a week. Maybe it would be possible to outsource a private dining car to provide the service



I like your idea. But, given the currently situation, it has no chance of happening.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> Would it be possible (maybe not practical) to have a more luxurious train on a limited basis during the 'high season'?
> It would be the 'cruise experience' available once a week. Maybe it would be possible to outsource a private dining car to provide the service



That’s exactly what Iowa Pacific tried to do. I rode it, behind the city of New Orleans. It was a great experience. Unfortunately there were lots of reasons that it wasn’t successful. (It was frequently selling out, it was way more complicated than people not wanting to ride or wanting to pay the prices).


----------



## MARC Rider

tgstubbs1 said:


> Would it be possible (maybe not practical) to have a more luxurious train on a limited basis during the 'high season'?
> It would be the 'cruise experience' available once a week. Maybe it would be possible to outsource a private dining car to provide the service


Isn't that what the evil Mr. Anderson was proposing to do with this "experiential" train service? Do something like run, say, the California Zephyr with full service and really cut back on-board service on all the other long-distance trains.


----------



## tgstubbs1

What if some company (with their own dining cars) did it? It could be like Xterra has the concession for National Park food service. They could put it on all the long distance trains.


----------



## MARC Rider

All right, enough of piling on to poor Amtrak about their lousy food. (even if it's true.) They're not the only ones with this problem. Last Monday, my daughter and I took a hike at Susquehanna State Park in Maryland that involved a drive up I-95 from Baltimore. After the hike, we were a bit hungry, but didn't want to bother with driving around Havre de Grace looking for carryout, so we decided to stop at Maryland House, the service plaza on I-95. The service plaza, under the Phase 2 re-opening, is open for restrooms, the convenience store, and about 3-4 fast food options. We made the mistake of getting fish tacos at the Phillips seafood stand. We wanted something lighter, and really didn't want to spend $15 for a crab cake or fish and chips. And we didn't want the burgers or hot dogs being sold at the other places. 

It took forever to get our order, despite the fact that there weren't many people waiting in line. There was only one server and one person back in the kitchen. The server took the order, and then also had to bag the takeout boxes coming out of the kitchen. It was all very inefficient, and when the server wasn't taking orders, for every complete order, she had to rummage around the serving area finding stuff that was included in the final package. 

What was worse was the food. Now I know that Phillips is a tourist trap, so I wasn't expecting the acme of Chesapeake Bay seafood cuisine, not to mention the fact that this is the heart of gringoland, so I wasn't expecting an authentic Baja culinary experience, but I was hoping for an edible fish taco, which shouldn't be too hard to mess up. What we got was what looked like a 1 oz. strip of grilled fish-like substance, wrapped with some wilted lettuce with a few squirts of an orange mayonnaise-based sauce in a cold flour tortilla. All for $7.50. Plus the fountain drinks were somewhere in the vicinity of $2.50. Oh well, at least it jacked our blood sugar a bit for the drive home, where I was able to reheat some nice leftovers from Sunday's dinner for a real meal. 

Fortunately, we found a shady picnic table outside and "enjoyed" our eats on a beautiful day. Even the roar of traffic from I-95 didn't bother us too much. I will say that mask compliance in Maryland is pretty good, and this location was no exception. The inside seating was supposedly closed, but some people were eating there anyway and nobody was chasing them away. But so few people were doing it, and social distancing was being maintained.

My point is that it's not just Amtrak. Finding good food while traveling is a pain in the neck unless you really take some time to research stuff and are willing to divert from your route a bit. Obviously, if you're not driving in your car, it's a little harder to divert from your route. Even if you are driving in your car, you might not be in the mood or have the time to explore the countryside for good eats, and so you will end up, like we did, at Maryland House.


----------



## flitcraft

Your experience mirrored mine at the so-called "Phillips" outpost at BWI...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> What if some company (with their own dining cars) did it? It could be like Xterra has the concession for National Park food service. They could put it on all the long distance trains.



Again... that’s exactly what Iowa Pacific did lol.


----------



## Rasputin

MARC Rider said:


> All right, enough of piling on to poor Amtrak about their lousy food. (even if it's true.) They're not the only ones with this problem. Last Monday, my daughter and I took a hike at Susquehanna State Park in Maryland that involved a drive up I-95 from Baltimore.
> 
> My point is that it's not just Amtrak. Finding good food while traveling is a pain in the neck unless you really take some time to research stuff and are willing to divert from your route a bit. Obviously, if you're not driving in your car, it's a little harder to divert from your route. Even if you are driving in your car, you might not be in the mood or have the time to explore the countryside for good eats, and so you will end up, like we did, at Maryland House.


Chances are that you were not paying $600 - $2,000 for a roomette or bedroom in order to take your hike. Those who are paying for such accommodations might expect to receive a bit more in the way of meal service.


----------



## tricia

Rasputin said:


> Chances are that you were not paying $600 - $2,000 for a roomette or bedroom in order to take your hike. Those who are paying for such accommodations might expect to receive a bit more in the way of meal service.


 Also, long-distance train riders are captive clientele--they can't decide to go to a different restaurant. Decent food on board is absolutely needed.


----------



## Barb Stout

me_little_me said:


> I personally don't mind paying for service but if I pay, I don't expect to (in fact I demand I should have the right to not) be tracked, be observed by Google analytics, be spammed with "personalized" or other ads, site cookies, third party cookies, trackers, etc.
> 
> I dumped my "free" Yahoo email for a paid service ($3/month) that has outstanding service (same day response to tech issues) and no tracking, no ads, with simple interfacing, instructions and help for all sorts of local email programs, and some amazingly advanced features.
> But even if you pay (and I pay Amazon for products), you get spammed with garbage. You have to search for their Non-Privacy page to find you may have to write or call them to "opt out" of SOME "services".
> Try using a VPN with a European site and see the differences when you connect to a site via that VPN in the U.S. and in Europe. I barely recognized the site because it was so clean and few, if any, cookies.
> When media sites guarantee me that if I pay for their service, none of the garbage will exist, then I'll sign up for it. Otherwise, ad blockers, private windows, constant cookie clearing, cookie blocking, VPNs and more are part of the equation.
> 
> And if anyone mentions that newspapers always had ads, remember, they were not on page one, were not IN YOUR FACE,not tracking you, not popping out when your mouse (eye) passed near them ,etc.
> 
> Edit: Sorry for supporting the "drift from the topic".


That's why I do read physical newspapers. Plus, after I finish with them, my parrots get to "read" them.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MARC Rider said:


> All right, enough of piling on to poor Amtrak about their lousy food. (even if it's true.) They're not the only ones with this problem. Last Monday, my daughter and I took a hike at Susquehanna State Park in Maryland that involved a drive up I-95 from Baltimore. After the hike, we were a bit hungry, but didn't want to bother with driving around Havre de Grace looking for carryout, so we decided to stop at Maryland House, the service plaza on I-95. The service plaza, under the Phase 2 re-opening, is open for restrooms, the convenience store, and about 3-4 fast food options. We made the mistake of getting fish tacos at the Phillips seafood stand. We wanted something lighter, and really didn't want to spend $15 for a crab cake or fish and chips. And we didn't want the burgers or hot dogs being sold at the other places.
> 
> It took forever to get our order, despite the fact that there weren't many people waiting in line. There was only one server and one person back in the kitchen. The server took the order, and then also had to bag the takeout boxes coming out of the kitchen. It was all very inefficient, and when the server wasn't taking orders, for every complete order, she had to rummage around the serving area finding stuff that was included in the final package.
> 
> What was worse was the food. Now I know that Phillips is a tourist trap, so I wasn't expecting the acme of Chesapeake Bay seafood cuisine, not to mention the fact that this is the heart of gringoland, so I wasn't expecting an authentic Baja culinary experience, but I was hoping for an edible fish taco, which shouldn't be too hard to mess up. What we got was what looked like a 1 oz. strip of grilled fish-like substance, wrapped with some wilted lettuce with a few squirts of an orange mayonnaise-based sauce in a cold flour tortilla. All for $7.50. Plus the fountain drinks were somewhere in the vicinity of $2.50. Oh well, at least it jacked our blood sugar a bit for the drive home, where I was able to reheat some nice leftovers from Sunday's dinner for a real meal.
> 
> Fortunately, we found a shady picnic table outside and "enjoyed" our eats on a beautiful day. Even the roar of traffic from I-95 didn't bother us too much. I will say that mask compliance in Maryland is pretty good, and this location was no exception. The inside seating was supposedly closed, but some people were eating there anyway and nobody was chasing them away. But so few people were doing it, and social distancing was being maintained.
> 
> My point is that it's not just Amtrak. Finding good food while traveling is a pain in the neck unless you really take some time to research stuff and are willing to divert from your route a bit. Obviously, if you're not driving in your car, it's a little harder to divert from your route. Even if you are driving in your car, you might not be in the mood or have the time to explore the countryside for good eats, and so you will end up, like we did, at Maryland House.


For this there is a cure! No, not a cure for the virus  but a cure for having to put up with the pandemic food problems.

I got myself some of those plastic food storage containers and filled them with fruits, nuts, crackers, veggies, dip, etc. and created a gourmet experience. Takes time to forage for the goodies at the grocery but it saves money and time when on the road, and it's fun. Ingenuity and self sufficiency at such a time gives one more control over the many inconveniences and restrictions we are all dealing with.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Has anyone seen or posted this article from the Business Insider... "People hated Amtrak's new airline-style meals so much they filed 125 pages of complaints in the first year after the change" Now that it's all over the system people may be a little more understanding because of the pandemic... but do we know if this will become permanent... that is... until they make further cuts in frequencies and services???








People hated Amtrak's new airline-style meals so much they filed 125 pages of complaints in the first year after the change


Customer comments obtained by Business Insider reveal just how badly riders miss the custom cooked, china-laden dinners of yesteryear.




www.yahoo.com


----------



## willem

me_little_me said:


> I personally don't mind paying for service [...]



I intended to subscribe to the on-line version of my local paper. I was unable to subscribe for one month (or for any time period, for that matter); the only options were for a continuing subscription of varying durations with auto-renew. The terms and conditions said that I was responsible to review the (undated) terms and conditions periodically to see if they had changed. In other words, if I wanted to know if they had changed, I needed to save the current terms and conditions and compare them to the future terms and conditions periodically. The web site was explicit that I would not be notified of changes or even that changes had been made, even though the web site required an email address to subscribe. After all that, I needed to deal with a Captcha to give the paper my money. (What bot is going to pay? And if it does, why would the paper care?) At this point, I abandoned the attempt, and the paper is continuing to struggle without my support. I did call the paper to share my comments, but I have little hope that the person who takes comments gets them to anyone who can do something with them.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

willem said:


> I intended to subscribe to the on-line version of my local paper. I was unable to subscribe for one month (or for any time period, for that matter); the only options were for a continuing subscription of varying durations with auto-renew.


Does your local paper allow one-and-done single month subscriptions for physical delivery? Every time I signed up to a local paper it was part of a continuing subscription until I cancelled it from my end.



willem said:


> The terms and conditions said that I was responsible to review the (undated) terms and conditions periodically to see if they had changed. In other words, if I wanted to know if they had changed, I needed to save the current terms and conditions and compare them to the future terms and conditions periodically. The web site was explicit that I would not be notified of changes or even that changes had been made, even though the web site required an email address to subscribe.


This _may_ be a simple misunderstanding. The phrase "without notice" is a common legal term used to withhold future plans so they can be released on their own schedule. It does not mean you will never receive any notice of changes, but it does mean that you may not be notified when subscribing in June that they have already decided to change the terms and pricing in January. Personally I wish some sites would spend _less_ time prompting me to accept and acknowledge each and every change they make.



willem said:


> After all that, I needed to deal with a Captcha to give the paper my money. (What bot is going to pay? And if it does, why would the paper care?) At this point, I abandoned the attempt, and the paper is continuing to struggle without my support. I did call the paper to share my comments, but I have little hope that the person who takes comments gets them to anyone who can do something with them.


If I was managing the website for a local paper I would care a lot if a bot was allowed to ransack the site and flood every story with links to scams for the cost of a single subscription.


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## Dakota 400

MARC Rider said:


> My point is that it's not just Amtrak. Finding good food while traveling is a pain in the neck unless you really take some time to research stuff and are willing to divert from your route a bit. Obviously, if you're not driving in your car, it's a little harder to divert from your route. Even if you are driving in your car, you might not be in the mood or have the time to explore the countryside for good eats, and so you will end up, like we did, at Maryland House.



So true! One of the things that I enjoy doing before a driving trip is doing the research for those places where I will be stopping/staying. I have found some interesting non-chain restaurants that I would never have known about with such research. 

My Mother was such a researcher. Many years ago, on a trip to Florida, she had discovered a restaurant that now has a politically incorrect name: Aunt Fanny's Cabin. It was near Atlanta. For this Ohio teenager, it was a very unique experience with no printed menu (it was all on a small piece of blackboard that the server brought to the table.) Food was excellent and the ambiance was, as I said, very unique.


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## willem

Devil's Advocate said:


> Does your local paper allow one-and-done single month subscriptions for physical delivery?



I don't know. If it's all done electronically (no human labor), I think it should. If I'm paying the paper, why should I need to go to extra effort to stop paying the paper when I knew that was my intention when I started paying the paper?



Devil's Advocate said:


> This _may_ be a simple misunderstanding. The phrase "without notice" is a common legal term used to withhold future plans so they can be released on their own schedule.



Maybe, but the terms said that I was responsible for checking for updates and that I would not be notified. The simplest reading was that the publisher expected me to check and compare terms on every visit, or to decide that the terms were not meant to read at all (which is what I believe the publisher expected).



Devil's Advocate said:


> If I was managing the website for a local paper I would care a lot if a bot was allowed to ransack the site and flood every story with links to scams for the cost of a single subscription.



I hadn't thought of that. On the few occasions that I visited the site, I did not see comments from anyone, but I could have mentally discarded them.


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## AmtrakFlyer

I don’t actually think Anderson had a plan, I think it was all BS. In 3 years there was no vision only cutbacks and hollow promises that never materialized.

If anything his Experimental train would just have been a traditional dining car service while all other trains had boxed meals. In essence you could call today’s Auto Train the “Experimental” train even after its recent cutbacks.



MARC Rider said:


> Isn't that what the evil Mr. Anderson was proposing to do with this "experiential" train service? Do something like run, say, the California Zephyr with full service and really cut back on-board service on all the other long-distance trains.


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## tgstubbs1

I wonder who Iowa Pacific used on their dining program. Dining on the train seems to be a fairly popular activity and of course commuters save time eating on the train.


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## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> I wonder who Iowa Pacific used on their dining program. Dining on the train seems to be a fairly popular activity and of course commuters save time eating on the train.



I’m not sure what you are asking? Iowa Pacific was the “program.”


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## AmtrakFlyer

As far as the Hoosier State? Normal crew at non union wages. It appeared to be younger or second career type employees. Highly motivated. The Hoosier States diner had better food than anything Amtrak has or possibly ever had. 

On a smaller scale like the Hoosier State or even the Alaska RR it can be done there’s a lot of motivated enthusiasts who would do the job for a couple years but that’s it. I equate it to flight attendants at regional airlines who make $1500-2000 a month with a high deductible insurance plan and not much else besides travel benefits. Great for a couple years to see the world but not a long term job.


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## tgstubbs1

OK. I've never heard of Iowa Pacific. I thought it was some old railroad. 
It seems if they could satisfy the tourist traveler on a limited schedule and still save money with the lunch box service the rest of the time.


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## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> OK. I've never heard of Iowa Pacific. I thought it was some old railroad.
> It seems if they could satisfy the tourist traveler on a limited schedule and still save money with the lunch box service the rest of the time.



Oh sorry. Iowa Pacific operated the Pullman cars on the back of the city of New Orleans and then operated the Hoosier State train on board service.

I’m pretty certain that the goal was for Iowa Pacific to take over some long distance services such as dining Cars. They just couldn’t stay running $$$ wise long enough to get there. 

But Iowa Pacific didn’t do anything that Amtrak can’t do if they want to. The menus were pretty simple, just nicely plated and presented.


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## Maverickstation

Per the Amtrak website, Traditional Dining (save for the Auto Train) is now suspended through August 31.

*








Amtrak Traditional Dining


Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.




www.amtrak.com




*


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## railiner

I am wondering why the Auto Train was excluded from the full service diner cuts....perhaps its diner was the most heavily used?
Or was Amtrak afraid they would permanently drive away their customer base for that train? And why would they only be concerned with that train?


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## joelkfla

railiner said:


> And why would they only be concerned with that train?


Profitability?


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## gregoryla

Maverickstation said:


> The Downeaster Trains which are run by Amtrak for the Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority also have a local menu.
> 
> https://amtrakdowneaster.com/sites/default/files/users/user10/2019_Updated_NexdineMenu.pdf


 I couldn't get that link to work. I had better luck with this one:



https://amtrakdowneaster.com/themes/contrib/client_theme/images/cafe/downeaster-cafe-menu.pdf


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