# Eastern Sleeping Car Passengers Pre-Order Meals



## RebelRider (Jul 4, 2020)

Sleeping car passengers will be able to pre-order meals soon. An e-mail will be sent 15 days before departure to the primary passenger who can select meals for everyone on the reservation. The cut-off is three days prior to the train's origination date. The only way to access the pre-order will be via the e-mailed link. This will be rolled out by route starting July 13. Covers the Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Crescent, Lakeshore Limited and Silver Service.


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## tricia (Jul 4, 2020)

Now if only they'll offer a decent selection of meals worth ordering....


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## the_traveler (Jul 4, 2020)

So if you book less than 3 days before departure, “Too bad”?


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 4, 2020)

the_traveler said:


> So if you book less than 3 days before departure, “Too bad”?



I can hear the attitude now “well you didn’t preorder so after I serve everyone else I’ll see what I have left”


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## railiner (Jul 4, 2020)

I think they will take into consideration those that either don't choose ahead, or book too late for pre-ordering. Perhaps you won't get your favorite, but they should still have something for those cases...

I think this pre-ordering can indeed be a good practice, if it is done well....


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## the_traveler (Jul 4, 2020)

“Done well”?

We are talking about Amtrak!


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## jiml (Jul 4, 2020)

Major airlines have offered this service - at least in FC - for several years. It's great when it works, but on my airline of choice what's shown on the advance menu doesn't "get loaded" about 25% of the time. That could include entirely different choices or not enough of the ones pre-ordered.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 4, 2020)

As mentioned above many full service airlines have offered preselected meals in premium cabins for several years, or at least they did before the pandemic. Advanced meal selection can reduce waste for accountants while opening up a wider menu selection for passengers, but it’s still dependent on the carrier and commissary to manage it properly. Carriers that do a good job with standard meal service should also do a good job with preselected meals, but I would not expect a carrier that struggles with standard meals to do a better job with preselected meals. Airlines typically cutoff changes around 24 hours, which is when the catering service expects to finalize the order. I don’t usually know what I will want to eat three or more days in advance so Amtrak’s preselection service will not be as helpful as simply catering better food in the usual manner.


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## joelkfla (Jul 4, 2020)

Will it include reserving a sandwich or muffin for breakfast?


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## me_little_me (Jul 5, 2020)

RebelRider said:


> Sleeping car passengers will be able to pre-order meals soon. An e-mail will be sent 15 days before departure to the primary passenger who can select meals for everyone on the reservation. The cut-off is three days prior to the train's origination date. The only way to access the pre-order will be via the e-mailed link. This will be rolled out by route starting July 13. Covers the Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Crescent, Lakeshore Limited and Silver Service.


The source for your information? Would love to read it.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 5, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> The source for your information? Would love to read it.


Probably an internal memo. The OP is an employee.


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## MARC Rider (Jul 5, 2020)

RebelRider said:


> Sleeping car passengers will be able to pre-order meals soon. An e-mail will be sent 15 days before departure to the primary passenger who can select meals for everyone on the reservation. The cut-off is three days prior to the train's origination date. The only way to access the pre-order will be via the e-mailed link. This will be rolled out by route starting July 13. Covers the Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Crescent, Lakeshore Limited and Silver Service.


Will you also be able to order the kosher meals via the email link?


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## pennyk (Jul 5, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> The source for your information? Would love to read it.


I trust his information.


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## pennyk (Jul 5, 2020)

Because I am allergic to garlic and because all the flex meal entrees contain garlic, I was able to special order "special" meals the last few times I traveled on the Silver Meteor and Captiol Limited. I worked directly with a very competent customer relations representative who provided me with a few alternatives. I would respond to her email (at least 3 days in advance) with my entree choice for each non breakfast meal I would eat on the Silver Meteor or Capitol Limited. I am guessing I special ordered at least 16 meals during the last few months of 2019 and each one was loaded and was exactly as ordered. I ate each meal in the sleeper lounge and never had an issue. I got the impression from the customer relations representative that pre-ordering would soon become common place. I have not been in communication with this representative for a while since my three 2020 trips for which I had reservations have been canceled. I hope she is around when I feel safe to travel again.


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## Palmetto (Jul 5, 2020)

I see this as a big plus for sleeping car passengers. It probably should even be required, if cost-cutting is paramount, by reducing wasted food. The problem arises, though, that the eventual goal of Amtrak is to serve the whole train from one, single car. For people who are coach passengers, and therefore won't reserve anything, the current café car fare would remain in place, I gather. However, I don't think there would be any problem if coach passengers were allowed to pre-order either.


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## jimdex (Jul 5, 2020)

I think pre-ordering is a good idea, and I see no reason why this option can't be extended to coach passengers.


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## Palmetto (Jul 5, 2020)

jimdex said:


> I think pre-ordering is a good idea, and I see no reason why this option can't be extended to coach passengers.




It does take the spontaneity out of it, though, doesn't it. Even between Boston and NYC, sometimes I just say to myself: "i think I'll get a hot dog and chips". Could be anywhere, any time on the route.


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## MARC Rider (Jul 6, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> It does take the spontaneity out of it, though, doesn't it. Even between Boston and NYC, sometimes I just say to myself: "i think I'll get a hot dog and chips". Could be anywhere, any time on the route.


If the alternative is no food at all, I'll be happy to dispense with the spontaneity. I can save that for when I reach my destination.


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2020)

Boston to NYC would be cafe car anyway, this would not really change anything about that.


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## the_traveler (Jul 6, 2020)

I travel sometimes from CHI to LAX on the TE. If I chose my dinner for the first day, but decide to not have it because I had a big lunch in Chicago, are you saying I should wait until I reach my destination 3 days later?


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## railiner (Jul 6, 2020)

I believe the pre-order must be pre-paid...so if you don't have it, you lose it...unless they hold it until you decide to have it...not sure how that works.


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## the_traveler (Jul 6, 2020)

Pre-paid? 

”Meals” are “included” in sleeper fares. So how do you pre-pay?


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## railiner (Jul 6, 2020)

the_traveler said:


> Pre-paid?
> 
> ”Meals” are “included” in sleeper fares. So how do you pre-pay?


Right...forgot about that...


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## Gary Behling (Jul 6, 2020)

tricia said:


> Now if only they'll offer a decent selection of meals worth ordering....


All I've EVER really cared about is (was) the cheesecake


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## jimdex (Jul 6, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> It does take the spontaneity out of it, though, doesn't it. Even between Boston and NYC, sometimes I just say to myself: "i think I'll get a hot dog and chips". Could be anywhere, any time on the route.


They're talking about dining car meals. I'm sure people will still be able to purchase hot dogs and chips in the lounge car anytime they want.


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 6, 2020)

I see where this system could be an improvement for Amtrak's shrinkage on the food service side. As someone who has cooked on a dining car I can speak to this subject. 

On the last real New River Train we offered three options for our first class meal service. We were making 634 meals for passengers and additional meals for crew. 

Here was our menu

Main Courses
-Prime Rib
or
-Roast Chicken 
or 
-Vegetarian Pasta

Sides
-Green Beans
-Mashed Potatos

Dessert 
-Cheese Cake

We took peoples food order when they bought their ticket so some passengers chose their meal 8 or more months ahead of the train, and forgot what they ordered when on the train. The other problem we had was people changing their minds after seeing what other people were eating at the same table or in their car. When you preorder the meals it makes it great from the bottom line viewpoint because you are controlling your inventory and managing shrink. 

However it can cause problems with people wanting to change their orders at the last minute, and the customer service issues that go along with that. 

The other fact that the orders have to be in by three days before travel makes it difficult from a customer service standpoint for passengers who book less than three days ahead. For instance traveling for an illness in the family, death, or weather related issues with other transportation alternatives. 

As far as the variety of options I don't think that will change with the new inventory management system they are attempting to use. Anything in life gets cheaper and more efficient with the economy of scale. So Amtrak wouldn't be saving money if it offers ten options for people and only makes one or two of less popular items at a time. Doing that causes the less popular items to have a higher price especially if they don't share common ingredients with a more popular item. 

So take for instance on our train the sides stayed the same regardless of the main course. On our menu we had Prime Rib and one prime rib could serve 10 people, where as the vegetarian pasta were made for the individual. So the prime rib while it costs more on paper than a vegetarian pasta you can share the cost over 10 passengers, the pasta could only be shared one way. 

While I would like more options from Amtrak it would be impossible to do while reducing cost, and shrink. 

Now all of that being said I support bringing back the chefs, the food specialists, and real food not microwaved gobbly goop


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## neroden (Jul 6, 2020)

pennyk said:


> Because I am allergic to garlic and because all the flex meal entrees contain garlic, I was able to special order "special" meals the last few times I traveled on the Silver Meteor and Captiol Limited. I worked directly with a very competent customer relations representative who provided me with a few alternatives. I would respond to her email (at least 3 days in advance) with my entree choice for each non breakfast meal I would eat on the Silver Meteor or Capitol Limited. I am guessing I special ordered at least 16 meals during the last few months of 2019 and each one was loaded and was exactly as ordered. I ate each meal in the sleeper lounge and never had an issue. I got the impression from the customer relations representative that pre-ordering would soon become common place. I have not been in communication with this representative for a while since my three 2020 trips for which I had reservations have been canceled. I hope she is around when I feel safe to travel again.


I'd like to know your CR representative, since I've been unable to get ingredients lists at all for years.


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## jiml (Jul 6, 2020)

Amtrak used to do a nice prime rib, but only in the single-level Heritage dining cars IIRC. Superliners were usually steak or short rib as the beef selection


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## Sauve850 (Jul 6, 2020)

I think three days to pre-order is reasonable. If you dont pre-order or book last minute i doubt you will go hungry.


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## lordsigma (Jul 6, 2020)

One of the things about flexible dining I believe it was a letter from the VP back last fall indicated that when pre-ordering for flex dining became available coach purchases would become available through a similar pre-ordering system. We shall see if it happens


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> On the last real New River Train we offered three options for our first class meal service. We were making 634 meals for passengers and additional meals for crew.



How many diners were on the train?

Were you using a catering service?


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2020)

The biggest mistake they could make is making a system too complicated by trying to satisfy everybody on every little issue. If you improve food quality and presentation, have a decent variety of choices, and a way to satisfy most religious or health concerns, go for it. You just aren't going to solve the 1 in million what if scenario, and are probably wasting time and money if you try. There will always be someone you can't please.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

PVD said:


> The biggest mistake they could make is making a system too complicated by trying to satisfy everybody on every little issue. If you improve food quality and presentation, have a decent variety of choices, and a way to satisfy most religious or health concerns, go for it. You just aren't going to solve the 1 in million what if scenario, and are probably wasting time and money if you try. There will always be someone you can't please.



They don’t even have a gluten free dessert option available. Or a non-shellfish fish entree. They are so far from even trying to care.


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2020)

Those are mainstream issues, not uncommon problems. To develop a responsible pre order program, those are precisely the type of issues that should be eliminated, that should be the goal. Too early to tell.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 7, 2020)

PVD said:


> The biggest mistake they could make is making a system too complicated by trying to satisfy everybody on every little issue. If you improve food quality and presentation, have a decent variety of choices, and a way to satisfy most religious or health concerns, go for it. You just aren't going to solve the 1 in million what if scenario, and are probably wasting time and money if you try. There will always be someone you can't please.


Catering for too many preferences is the biggest mistake Amtrak could make? I don’t normally disagree with you but I’m not even sure where this concern is coming from. I’ve never seen Amtrak go overboard with too many options for dining and don’t expect them to chance it unless Aramark assumes all the risk, which I also do not expect to happen. I’d reckon it’s a hundred times more likely Amtrak simply abandons dining service rather than offer too many options.


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## tricia (Jul 7, 2020)

With the flex food model, ALL items are pre-made in some factory somewhere, and made to be stored for weeks or months. With pre-ordering, Amtrak ought to be able to offer MUCH more variety at close to no added cost: Does buying 3000 frozen entrees divided among 10 varieties really cost a lot more than 5 varieties, given that the unused items can be stored for future use? Ditto for the packaged breakfast items, desserts....


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## PVD (Jul 7, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Catering for too many preferences is the biggest mistake Amtrak could make? I don’t normally disagree with you but I’m not even sure where this concern is coming from. I’ve never seen Amtrak go overboard with too many options for dining and don’t expect them to chance it unless Aramark assumes all the risk, which I also do not expect to happen. I’d reckon it’s a hundred times more likely Amtrak simply abandons dining service rather than offer too many options.


Maybe I can explain better..Looking at their past track record, I would rather see them focus on improving the offering and satisfying the greatest majority of concerns that people exxpress. If they get bogged down in an effort to try and hit every possible scenario, they will likely fail miswrably.


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## pennyk (Jul 7, 2020)

neroden said:


> I'd like to know your CR representative, since I've been unable to get ingredients lists at all for years.


I, too, have been trying to get ingredient lists for years. I do not have the ingredients lists for the flex meals. When the contemporary meals were introduced, ingredients were listed on an enclosure in the box, but, to my knowledge, ingredient lists are not publicly available for flex meals. It took me a while for customer relations to contact me. I was patient and polite. I started by phoning customer relations and explained my allergy and my request to have an ingredient list. It may have taken a few tries, but one representative provided me with a "case number" and an email address. I was not successful at first and received "form" responses that suggested that I bring my own food, which I did for a while. I later learned that all entrees contained garlic and it was suggested that I could go to the cafe car and order something there instead of eating an entree. I had written authorization to do that and I usually had to sign the receipt and include my car and room number. Eventually, I was contacted by customer relations with the option to preorder garlic free options. My choices were limited but I was satisfied with my choices and I felt my choices were healthier than flex meals (although most passengers would have considered my meals tasteless and boring).

It should be noted that things are very different now than they were last year. Amtrak may have laid off some Customer Relations representatives and those remaining may be dealing with different pressing issues. My suggestion is to be patient and polite.


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 7, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How many diners were on the train?
> 
> Were you using a catering service?



We had two diners, and a table car. 

-Moultree (EX Atlantic Coastline Pullman Standard 36 Seat Diner)
-NYC 448 (EX New York Central Budd 48 Seat Diner
-Birken (EX Canadian National CC&F Table Car)

Each diner did three servings, and the overflow the food was brought to their seat. 

The operators ordered the food from US Foods who parked a truck with the ingredients next to the diners in the mornings. We went and received the raw ingredients and cooked them fresh on board the train. We used a lot of culinary students from the local tech school.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 7, 2020)

Oh I’ve been in the Moultree! That’s a cool car. I always thought it was funny that people freaked out when Amtrak did the curved booths In the CCC Cars cause they faced away from the windows. I’m like... Seaboard did that long before Amtrak! Ha. 

Definitely an ambitious operation.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

tricia said:


> Now if only they'll offer a decent selection of meals worth ordering....


If one of our Amtrak Unlimited members gets info on this before traveling... please pass it on


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I see where this system could be an improvement for Amtrak's shrinkage on the food service side. As someone who has cooked on a dining car I can speak to this subject.
> 
> On the last real New River Train we offered three options for our first class meal service. We were making 634 meals for passengers and additional meals for crew.
> 
> ...


As traveling members come across any food improvements please pass it on!


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 7, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh I’ve been in the Moultree! That’s a cool car. I always thought it was funny that people freaked out when Amtrak did the curved booths In the CCC Cars cause they faced away from the windows. I’m like... Seaboard did that long before Amtrak! Ha.
> 
> Definitely an ambitious operation.



It's a fantastic car to work in, I absolutely loved my time in it. 

Actually more than one railroad did the curved booths like the Atlantic Coastline. 

The full diners on the 20th Century Limited also were like that. And a few other railroads I believe as well. I'll have to consult one of my many books on dining car service. 

The curved booths really are a 1940s modern style.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 7, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> It's a fantastic car to work in, I absolutely loved my time in it.
> 
> Actually more than one railroad did the curved booths like the Atlantic Coastline.
> 
> ...



I think Santa Fe as well... or maybe I’m just thinking of the Turquoise room. But yes - lots of creative designs.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

tricia said:


> With the flex food model, ALL items are pre-made in some factory somewhere, and made to be stored for weeks or months. With pre-ordering, Amtrak ought to be able to offer MUCH more variety at close to no added cost: Does buying 3000 frozen entrees divided among 10 varieties really cost a lot more than 5 varieties, given that the unused items can be stored for future use? Ditto for the packaged breakfast items, desserts....


We're all hoping for a greatly improved dining experience... but there are several parts to this discussion:

1] UNDERSTAND AND BE TOLERANT DURING PANDEMIC DIFFICULTIES: Effecting all modes of travel; even airline 1st class meals are being scaled back. We shouldn't be too optimistic about changes until the vaccine brings more normalcy back.

2] FOOD VARIETY, QUALITY, AND QUANTITY: Worth discussing and bringing up with congressional representatives. As so many have pointed out, food service companies can provided the level of quality which is requested and paid for.

3] SERVICE MODE AND FACILITATION: We need to get rid of the plastics! They are carcinogenic when heated, and bad for the environment when trashed in landfills. Big argument here... if the airlines can use ceramic ware, Amtrak aught to be able to develop a similar method of doing the same... including cutlery and cloth napkins. Perhaps stacking the used ware in compartments similar to how airlines do it. An example of LD service points on the Empire Builder may be Whitefish, Fargo, and Minneapolis. Eastern trains could do similar without a re provisioning point.

4] FUNDING POLICIES NEED TO BE PRIORITIZED / CHANGED. That must undoubtedly come from upper levels of government. 

So I've tried to break this discussion down into separate issues.


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 7, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think Santa Fe as well... or maybe I’m just thinking of the Turquoise room. But yes - lots of creative designs.


Southern Pacific's Cascade Club (Triple Unit, diner/ kitchen/ lounge had some similar tables as well. 

There is a really good book I have that has the floor plans of various streamliner era cars. The Union Pacific dome diners are also unique. They were the only railcars with round tables instead of rectangular. 

Really all the way into the 1970s there were all sorts of curved booths. Look at the Pan American World Airways, United, or American B747 lounges. Curved booths really are still very trendy. I'm working on an interior design for a PV owner right now and I'm proposing a few curved designs for interior fixtures. Its funny I'm taking more inspiration from Pan American than railroad designs. 

I don't see why people complained about the CCC tables. In my opinion they are more social than standard tables.


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## railiner (Jul 7, 2020)

Curved booths, sofas, etc., I think are okay in a nice lounge car, but in a diner, straight tables utilize space more efficiently. 
For pure luxury, Santa Fe's top diner's had only 36 seats. four and two, rather than the usual 48 seats.
My favorite diner's, were the Broadway's twin-unit diners...all tables in the dining room, and the galley and dorm in the adjacent car. They used to have a basket of apple's to select from after dinner, in the mid car pantry area...


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 7, 2020)

railiner said:


> Curved booths, sofas, etc., I think are okay in a nice lounge car, but in a diner, straight tables utilize space more efficiently.
> For pure luxury, Santa Fe's top diner's had only 36 seats. four and two, rather than the usual 48 seats.
> My favorite diner's, were the Broadway's twin-unit diners...all tables in the dining room, and the galley and dorm in the adjacent car. They used to have a basket of apple's to select from after dinner, in the mid car pantry area...


Makes me think back to my One and only trip on the Super Chief and the thrill of getting to eat in the Diner!!!


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

railiner said:


> Curved booths, sofas, etc., I think are okay in a nice lounge car, but in a diner, straight tables utilize space more efficiently.
> For pure luxury, Santa Fe's top diner's had only 36 seats. four and two, rather than the usual 48 seats.
> My favorite diner's, were the Broadway's twin-unit diners...all tables in the dining room, and the galley and dorm in the adjacent car. They used to have a basket of apple's to select from after dinner, in the mid car pantry area...


Do you have a time machine that can take us back to the good old days???


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 7, 2020)

Kind of like the dog being able to pre-order what gets dumped into his feeding dish the next morning.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Kind of like the dog being able to pre-order what gets dumped into his feeding dish the next morning.


Yes but you are overlooking something. Would you really want to give this noxious food product to a loving pet???


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## railiner (Jul 8, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Do you have a time machine that can take us back to the good old days???


Only in my mind....


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## Ferroequinologist (Jul 8, 2020)

pennyk said:


> Because I am allergic to garlic and because all the flex meal entrees contain garlic, I was able to special order "special" meals the last few times I traveled on the Silver Meteor and Captiol Limited. I worked directly with a very competent customer relations representative who provided me with a few alternatives. I would respond to her email (at least 3 days in advance) with my entree choice for each non breakfast meal I would eat on the Silver Meteor or Capitol Limited. I am guessing I special ordered at least 16 meals during the last few months of 2019 and each one was loaded and was exactly as ordered. I ate each meal in the sleeper lounge and never had an issue. I got the impression from the customer relations representative that pre-ordering would soon become common place. I have not been in communication with this representative for a while since my three 2020 trips for which I had reservations have been canceled. I hope she is around when I feel safe to travel again.



I have the same allergy and some other issues. How can I contact a customer relations rep?


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## pennyk (Jul 9, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I have the same allergy and some other issues. How can I contact a customer relations rep?


See my post from a couple of days ago:



pennyk said:


> I, too, have been trying to get ingredient lists for years. I do not have the ingredients lists for the flex meals. When the contemporary meals were introduced, ingredients were listed on an enclosure in the box, but, to my knowledge, ingredient lists are not publicly available for flex meals. It took me a while for customer relations to contact me. I was patient and polite. I started by phoning customer relations and explained my allergy and my request to have an ingredient list. It may have taken a few tries, but one representative provided me with a "case number" and an email address. I was not successful at first and received "form" responses that suggested that I bring my own food, which I did for a while. I later learned that all entrees contained garlic and it was suggested that I could go to the cafe car and order something there instead of eating an entree. I had written authorization to do that and I usually had to sign the receipt and include my car and room number. Eventually, I was contacted by customer relations with the option to preorder garlic free options. My choices were limited but I was satisfied with my choices and I felt my choices were healthier than flex meals (although most passengers would have considered my meals tasteless and boring).
> 
> It should be noted that things are very different now than they were last year. Amtrak may have laid off some Customer Relations representatives and those remaining may be dealing with different pressing issues. My suggestion is to be patient and polite.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 9, 2020)

pennyk said:


> Because I am allergic to garlic and because all the flex meal entrees contain garlic, I was able to special order "special" meals the last few times I traveled on the Silver Meteor and Captiol Limited. I worked directly with a very competent customer relations representative who provided me with a few alternatives. I would respond to her email (at least 3 days in advance) with my entree choice for each non breakfast meal I would eat on the Silver Meteor or Capitol Limited. I am guessing I special ordered at least 16 meals during the last few months of 2019 and each one was loaded and was exactly as ordered. I ate each meal in the sleeper lounge and never had an issue. I got the impression from the customer relations representative that pre-ordering would soon become common place. I have not been in communication with this representative for a while since my three 2020 trips for which I had reservations have been canceled. I hope she is around when I feel safe to travel again.


Thank you for this encouraging information. Sounds like pre-ordered meals may be healthier and of a higher quality. The other point is that a good Amtrak agent can make a big difference when planning a trip!


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## Steve4031 (Jul 9, 2020)

I would like having some control over what I eat. I was planning on eating the spaghetti with meatballs for lunch on 48 in June and was rather annoyed when lsa said none were loaded in Chicago. So off to the lounge for a cheeseburger which I enjoyed. 

If the pre-orders are reliably followed, the system has potential.


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## pennyk (Jul 9, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Thank you for this encouraging information. Sounds like pre-ordered meals may be healthier and of a higher quality. The other point is that a good Amtrak agent can make a big difference when planning a trip!


I would not count on pre-ordered meals being healthier or of a higher quality. However, I do agree that a good Amtrak agent can make a big difference.


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## me_little_me (Jul 10, 2020)

pennyk said:


> I would not count on pre-ordered meals being healthier or of a higher quality. However, I do agree that a good Amtrak agent can make a big difference.


But pre-ordered meals should be able to reduce cost and waste somewhat and IF that reduced cost was used to provide a better meal...

Well, it is a dream!


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 10, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> I would like having some control over what I eat. I was planning on eating the spaghetti with meatballs for lunch on 48 in June and was rather annoyed when lsa said none were loaded in Chicago. So off to the lounge for a cheeseburger which I enjoyed.
> 
> If the pre-orders are reliably followed, the system has potential.



I have to wonder if this was a failure on the part of the Chicago food supplier (ordered food was not delivered to the train), or by Amtrak itself (order never made it to the supplier)?

I have had problems with pre-ordered food in airlines before. IMHO, the system would be so much more robust if customer's name were marked onto their food order.


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## Steve4031 (Jul 10, 2020)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I have to wonder if this was a failure on the part of the Chicago food supplier (ordered food was not delivered to the train), or by Amtrak itself (order never made it to the supplier)?
> 
> I have had problems with pre-ordered food in airlines before. IMHO, the system would be so much more robust if customer's name were marked onto their food order.



This was not a preorder. This occurred earlier this summer before preorder service was available.


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## jiml (Jul 11, 2020)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I have had problems with pre-ordered food in airlines before.


I agreed with you in a post much earlier in this thread. AA has offered this service for several years now and they tend to get it wrong at least 25% of the time, either with choices loaded that don't match the pre-selection options at all or not enough of what was ordered. "I'm sorry sir. I know you ordered the steak, but they only loaded two. Would you mind the veggie pasta?"


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## the_traveler (Jul 11, 2020)

jiml said:


> "I'm sorry sir. I know you ordered the steak, but they only loaded two. Would you mind the veggie pasta?"


“No, that will be fine!”


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## Steve4031 (Jul 12, 2020)

Just booked a round trip to Washington DC on the 50 and 29. Departing Thursday with return on Saturday of this upcoming weekend. I’ll do a trip report and let you know how it works.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 12, 2020)

jiml said:


> I agreed with you in a post much earlier in this thread. AA has offered this service for several years now and they tend to get it wrong at least 25% of the time, either with choices loaded that don't match the pre-selection options at all or not enough of what was ordered. "I'm sorry sir. I know you ordered the steak, but they only loaded two. Would you mind the veggie pasta?"


That's honestly pretty bad. Out here in RJ spoke land AA only caters the generic (non-branded) cheese or hummus plates and even those can vary a lot from flight to flight. Sometimes they're fresh and tasty. Sometimes they're stale or frozen. Other times they're left on the truck or staging area. I've read that even those meals have been removed from service so I guess AA found a way to improve consistency.


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## Steve4031 (Jul 14, 2020)

So far no email for the Cardinal which I board Thursday evening. I’m thinking I won’t get one for that train. Maybe will have better luck on the Capitol Limited coming back on Saturday night.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 15, 2020)

jiml said:


> "I'm sorry sir. I know you ordered the steak, but they only loaded two. Would you mind the veggie pasta?"



I assume that if you replied "Then I will take one of those two", they will call the Air Marshall. Though, in TSA jail, I here they are serving Chicken Parm with linguine, for dinner tonight.


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## RebelRider (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> So far no email for the Cardinal which I board Thursday evening. I’m thinking I won’t get one for that train. Maybe will have better luck on the Capitol Limited coming back on Saturday night.



The program is being rolled out, by train, over the next month. I didn't make that very clear in the first post. It started with the Crescent this week.

Up next:

July 27 - Lake Shore and City of New Orleans
August 10 - Capitol Limited and Cardinal
August 24 - Silver Service


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## RichieRich (Jul 16, 2020)

PVD said:


> There will always be someone you can't please.


This is Mass Public transportation. If you have such a delicate digestive system...just bring a can of Ensure!!!


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## Steve4031 (Jul 22, 2020)

RebelRider said:


> The program is being rolled out, by train, over the next month. I didn't make that very clear in the first post. It started with the Crescent this week.
> 
> Up next:
> 
> ...



Thank you for the clarification. Based on my experiences last weekend Amtrak did a better job loading enough of each item. I got the meatball pasta twice. It was adequate. I’m getting used to the breakfast. For lunch I got a cheeseburger on 50 which was comped. 

There’s a back story to the comped cheeseburger. A person offered me a twenty if I would buy his lunch on my credit card. He was caught off guard with the credit card only policy. I just bought his lunch. I did not have change for a twenty. The LSA was probably impressed by my effort. I anticipated paying for my lunch because there has been an inconsistent approach to comping cheeseburgers for sleeping cars on the lake shore limited.


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## IndyLions (Jul 23, 2020)

This looks interesting (don’t know why - but it’s something new). I'll be on the Crescent and the Card in about 3 weeks.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jul 24, 2020)

I just selected meals for my trip on 19 next week. Here are some screen shots. It was pretty intuitive and they sent me a confirmation email at the end.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 24, 2020)

NativeSon5859 said:


> I just selected meals for my trip on 19 next week. Here are some screen shots. It was pretty intuitive and they sent me a confirmation email at the end.View attachment 18237
> View attachment 18238
> View attachment 18239


Looks like they're glorifying the downgraded food service. By ordering ahead you can be sure of getting your choice. Portions are small, consistent menu is monotonous, and if this is noted as an 'improvement' I don't find this disappointing; not impressive.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 24, 2020)

So it’s all the same choices for now?


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## joelkfla (Jul 24, 2020)

So breakfast is just breakfast. No guarantee of oatmeal or a sandwich.

I notice that you can "preselect your meals your meals," not just preselect your meals.


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## PVD (Jul 24, 2020)

A recurring and legitimate complaint has been the unavailability of the meal you would prefer because they ran out of them. Short of over stocking and wasting food, you can't guarantee that there will always be availability of whichever meal someone wants. It's a step in the right direction. Down the road, maybe a chance to mix and match, or a bit more variety, and we all know breakfast needs work, but certainly welcomed.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jul 24, 2020)

There’s another screen I didn’t save which showed you the items you can pick. Below each item was a description. For breakfast, you don’t have to select anything..it just lists everything they are service. The choices are the same as what’s being offered on the updated menu here...


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## tgstubbs1 (Jul 24, 2020)

Nice. Do they provide basic nutritional info (carbs, protein, fat, fiber, sodium, etc)?


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## PVD (Jul 24, 2020)

They have standard nutrition information on the website, of course, it has not been updated to reflect the current choices, so it is useless.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 24, 2020)

The disclaimer about gluten free is new since the original October roll out I think. 

One of the very few advantages of pre-packaged meals should be guaranteed gluten free meals. It’s so easy if someone just bothers to care.


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## plane2train (Jul 25, 2020)

The pictures in the menu look disgusting. I’m not looking forward to my ride in September. Amtrak needs to get its act together, or people will give up on them.


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## fdaley (Jul 25, 2020)

plane2train said:


> The pictures in the menu look disgusting. I’m not looking forward to my ride in September. Amtrak needs to get its act together, or people will give up on them.



Yuk. I already have given up on them. Which distresses me greatly, as train travel has been one of the great pleasures of my life. But I just can't pretend that I would enjoy eating this stuff. For the price paid for a sleeper room, it's really an insult.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jul 25, 2020)

I just had the shrimp with lobster sauce last night and it was very good. No complaints at all.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 25, 2020)

NativeSon5859 said:


> I just had the shrimp with lobster sauce last night and it was very good. No complaints at all.



What was your favorite Amtrak dish before the contemporary meals?


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## me_little_me (Jul 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What was your favorite Amtrak dish before the contemporary meals?


Alpo? Just a guess.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jul 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What was your favorite Amtrak dish before the contemporary meals?



My go-to was the land and sea for dinner. Always good. The chilaquiles were really good for lunch and I never had a bad plate of railroad French toast.

I miss the traditional dining, but if this is the way it’s going to be, I can learn to deal with it.


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## caravanman (Jul 25, 2020)

pennyk said:


> Because I am allergic to garlic and because all the flex meal entrees contain garlic, I was able to special order "special"


Strangely, Penny's reflection does not show up on a mirror either...


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## Steve4031 (Jul 26, 2020)

Steak for dinner and pancakes for breakfast. The meatballs and pasta is ok substitute for dinner. I can deal with the breakfast. But lunch is a mess because I don’t like the other meals. 

What is the other part of the lobster dish?


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## me_little_me (Jul 27, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> Steak for dinner and pancakes for breakfast. The meatballs and pasta is ok substitute for dinner. I can deal with the breakfast. But lunch is a mess because I don’t like the other meals.
> 
> What is the other part of the lobster dish?


Soylent green?


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## RebelRider (Jul 30, 2020)

NativeSon5859 said:


> I just had the shrimp with lobster sauce last night and it was very good. No complaints at all.



Glad to hear it tastes good. Stinks up the whole cafe when microwaved. I can't stand the smell of that dish.


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## Manny T (Jul 30, 2020)

Not sure what good it is to like *one* dish or another on the flex dining menu. Does that mean on an overnight trip you order it for both dinner and lunch, and then again on the return trip? Eat the same thing 3-4 times on the train? 

I mean I have a favorite too on the flex dining menu but so what. I don't look forward to ordering it for dinner and lunch on the CL eastbound and then having it again for dinner westbound. Would prefer a menu where all/most of the selections were acceptable choices. Or as Garrison Keillor used to say about the kids in Lake Wobegone, "where all the children are above average."


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## nferr (Aug 7, 2020)

NativeSon5859 said:


> I just had the shrimp with lobster sauce last night and it was very good. No complaints at all.



I'm on the Capital Limited now. Had the Chicken Marsala and it was fine. Was it the steak? No. But it was nothing like the crying on this forum would have you believe. Just had breakfast, the sausage and egg muffin, blueberry yogurt, orange juice and two cups of coffee. I'm not hungry.


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## TEREB (Aug 11, 2020)

nferr said:


> I'm on the Capital Limited now. Had the Chicken Marsala and it was fine. Was it the steak? No. But it was nothing like the crying on this forum would have you believe. Just had breakfast, the sausage and egg muffin, blueberry yogurt, orange juice and two cups of coffee. I'm not hungry.


Was the english muffin toasted at all or was it soggy? I guess wrapped in foil would make it soggy, but I do hope it's been at least toasted.


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## TEREB (Aug 11, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Soylent green?


Funny, that's how a formal night lobster dinner was described on Princess cruises. It was a lemon arugula risotto that was green.


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## TEREB (Aug 11, 2020)

NativeSon5859 said:


> I just had the shrimp with lobster sauce last night and it was very good. No complaints at all.


We've been traveling the Silver Meteor/Star both north and south at least twice a year for more than 12 years, and I've had some pretty good meals. 
My favorite lunch was, I believe was a corn chower with shrimp. Just enough spice. When they eliminated the soup and salad option, people on this board suggested the black bean veggie burger. That became my go to lunch. 
Dinner was always fish. Their fish was always tasty. Crab cakes was one of my favorites. Salmon, even though often very dry, was still very good. 
Dessert, well I have a huge sweet tooth, everything was my favorite. 
My next trip will hopefully be in September. I'll be trying the black bean enchiladas and the shrimp with lobster sauce and the blondies. Wish me luck.


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## dlagrua (Aug 15, 2020)

We've sampled four of the menu options and have found them to be terrible. They taste like cheap frozen meals perhaps loaded with preservatives and MSG. On an overnight trip they might be tolerable but on a cross country trip they are sickening. Just imagine eating that awful fodder for two meals for three days! It's disgusting


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## tgstubbs1 (Aug 15, 2020)

They should have provided you with the means to find out the sodium content. That is important nutritional information and worth knowing about the food you eat. It would be good to see it here, too, if you find out.


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## west point (Aug 15, 2020)

Too much MSG gives me bad headaches


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## me_little_me (Aug 16, 2020)

west point said:


> Too much MSG gives me bad headaches


Too much bad Amtrak management gives me problems at both ends.


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## TheCrescent (Aug 16, 2020)

plane2train said:


> The pictures in the menu look disgusting. I’m not looking forward to my ride in September. Amtrak needs to get its act together, or people will give up on them.



The Flexible Dining breakfasts have driven me away. I am Select Plus, from sleeping car rides on the Crescent, but those breakfasts are so awful (little food, bad quality and attitude when being fed) that I am not taking Amtrak again any time soon.

Edited to add: from the pre-ordering screen shots, it looks like you can't select the breakfast items that you want; you just order "1 Breakfast". Part of the frustration with Flexible Dining breakfasts is dealing with ordering it.

Somehow I'm always "wrong". If I go to the cafe car to order it, I'm wrong, because I'm told that I should have ordered it from the sleeping car attendant; and if I ask the sleeping car attendant (who's usually nicer than the cafe car person), I'm still wrong because I'm told that I should have gone to the cafe car to pick it up. And when I'm in the cafe car, I'm wrong when I order, because I'm supposed to wait in an unmarked area, and each item that I order is a source of frustration for the cafe car attendant.

It's just totally frustrating, and for the cr_p food, it's just not worth it. I started bringing my own breakfast (since 1 small meal on the day when the northbound Crescent arrives in NYP around 1pm) is not enough, and then I get irked that I'm paying over $300 for a one-way trip and am literally bringing my own food.

I definitely do not want to bring today's political/social divides into this but I do wonder if part of the attitude/service issues in the cafe cars is due to a resentment of an older white guy, presumably with the means to pay for sleeping car space; am I viewed as "the oppressor"?


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 16, 2020)

TheCrescent said:


> The Flexible Dining breakfasts have driven me away. I am Select Plus, from sleeping car rides on the Crescent, but those breakfasts are so awful (little food, bad quality and attitude when being fed) that I am not taking Amtrak again any time soon.
> 
> Edited to add: from the pre-ordering screen shots, it looks like you can't select the breakfast items that you want; you just order "1 Breakfast". Part of the frustration with Flexible Dining breakfasts is dealing with ordering it.
> 
> ...



I got that attitude when ordering breakfast as well, not quite as bad as what you described but close to it. I asked a question about an item on the menu and she said “what we have is written on the menu, you tell me what you want” So classy 

I’ve also been scolded on a Michigan train for ordering my free bottled water in business class wrong and no joke, the attendant was upset with me when I put the cap back on his pen after signing for my free water. You can’t make it up. Ha.


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## TheCrescent (Aug 16, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I got that attitude when ordering breakfast as well, not quite as bad as what you described but close to it. I asked a question about an item on the menu and she said “what we have is written on the menu, you tell me what you want” So classy
> 
> I’ve also been scolded on a Michigan train for ordering my free bottled water in business class wrong and no joke, the attendant was upset with me when I put the cap back on his pen after signing for my free water. You can’t make it up. Ha.



Only on Amtrak. American Airlines has a few bad apples but lacks the consistent attitude of Amtrak’s cafe car staff.

Since meals can be pre-ordered I don’t understand why you can’t pre-order individual breakfast items and even specify a time for them to be dropped off.

Not all Amtrak cafe car attendants have attitude (some are great) but attitude is frequent enough that it’s an expected downer when taking the train.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 16, 2020)

TheCrescent said:


> Only on Amtrak. American Airlines has a few bad apples but lacks the consistent attitude of Amtrak’s cafe car staff.
> 
> Since meals can be pre-ordered I don’t understand why you can’t pre-order individual breakfast items and even specify a time for them to be dropped off.
> 
> Not all Amtrak cafe car attendants have attitude (some are great) but attitude is frequent enough that it’s an expected downer when taking the train.



I’ve heard the stories but I’ve had great service on American personally. But I haven’t flown with them very often. 

And yes Amtrak has some wonderful employees as well. To counter my Michigan story, a cafe attendant on a train to Carbondale offered to get me some crew waters instead of me purchasing a bottled water (Because on Amtrak you can only get 1 bottle of water for free...).


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## TheCrescent (Aug 16, 2020)

American Airlines staff is overall good, with Admirals Club and on-board staff pretty consistently excellent. Much better than Amtrak. I wonder why: railroads being a more masculine culture, pay differences, railroad culture generally, unions, government vs. private sector or what?


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## MARC Rider (Aug 16, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> They should have provided you with the means to find out the sodium content. That is important nutritional information and worth knowing about the food you eat. It would be good to see it here, too, if you find out.


They should provide the sodium content for the traditional dining food too, and even at gourmet restaurants. I suspect that in all cases, it will be too high relative to medical opinion.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 16, 2020)

TheCrescent said:


> American Airlines staff is overall good, with Admirals Club and on-board staff pretty consistently excellent. Much better than Amtrak. I wonder why: railroads being a more masculine culture, pay differences, railroad culture generally, unions, government vs. private sector or what?


Probably because Amtrak's on-board service is understaffed, and there's a lot of uncertainty about whether they'll even have jobs. And we really don't know how the OBS is treated by management, union, nor not.

Besides, union or non-union doesn't make a difference. I remember Continental Airlines back in the Frank Lorenzo days, after he kicked out the unions. The service was horrible, the staff took their frustrations out on the passengers. The only reason I flew with them was because they had the government city-pair contract to where I was flying.

If you treat your workers like disposable dirt, they'll just pass it on alsong.


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## PVD (Aug 16, 2020)

As a matter of fact, when Lorenzo was finally gone, and Gordon Bethune came in he totally changed the culture, and Continental became a much better airline.


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## railiner (Aug 17, 2020)

PVD said:


> As a matter of fact, when Lorenzo was finally gone, and Gordon Bethune came in he totally changed the culture, and Continental became a much better airline.


This book tells the story....


Robot Check


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 17, 2020)

plane2train said:


> The pictures in the menu look disgusting. I’m not looking forward to my ride in September. Amtrak needs to get its act together, or people will give up on them.


They are taking a dismal product and 'making it more attractive' by allowing for pre-order. But it's very monotonous and all looks and tastes the same... over-processed; high in sodium and fat; no texture and no taste. 

Am I impressed? No. Disgusted? Yes. Try ordering the kosher meal... it may be a slight step ahead with quality. I think you can get salmon or chicken... let us know how you do. Below is a pic from a kosher airline meal... it won't be that good...


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 17, 2020)

TheCrescent said:


> The Flexible Dining breakfasts have driven me away. I am Select Plus, from sleeping car rides on the Crescent, but those breakfasts are so awful (little food, bad quality and attitude when being fed) that I am not taking Amtrak again any time soon.
> 
> Edited to add: from the pre-ordering screen shots, it looks like you can't select the breakfast items that you want; you just order "1 Breakfast". Part of the frustration with Flexible Dining breakfasts is dealing with ordering it.
> 
> ...


When riding the Cardinal last December, I was told that breakfast was 'buffet style' and 'take whatever you want.' So I ordered two breakfast sandwiches and got them. Oh well. Guess they cut back on that too. Sounds like they give you your box with whatever they put in it... along with a coffee if requested... and send you on your way. And, 'with attitude.' All this reminds me of the fall of the roman empire!

Just for fun, I googled prison breakfast...


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 17, 2020)

TheCrescent said:


> I definitely do not want to bring today's political/social divides into this but I do wonder if part of the attitude/service issues in the cafe cars is due to a resentment of an older white guy, presumably with the means to pay for sleeping car space; am I viewed as "the oppressor"?


The only people you can count on Amtrak staff treating with genuine concern and respect are each other. Everyone else is fair game for ignoring, criticizing, and barking orders at no matter their wealth or skin color. If you think Amtrak staff treat sleeper customers poorly you should give coach a try. If you think coach is bad try walking down a platform as a trainspotter carrying a camera and no ticket. That's not to say times aren't tense right now, but Amtrak service issues predate the current distrust by decades.


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## OBS (Aug 17, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The only people you can count on Amtrak staff treating with genuine concern and respect are each other. Everyone else is fair game for ignoring, criticizing, and barking orders at no matter their wealth or skin color. If you think Amtrak staff treat sleeper customers poorly you should give coach a try. If you think coach is bad try walking down a platform as a trainspotter carrying a camera and no ticket. That's not to say times aren't tense right now, but Amtrak service issues predate the current distrust by decades.


Unfortunately, that sums it up pretty well....spoken as someone who spent 30 years trying to overcompensate for it.....


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 17, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The only people you can count on Amtrak staff treating with genuine concern and respect are each other. Everyone else is fair game for ignoring, criticizing, and barking orders at no matter their wealth or skin color. If you think Amtrak staff treat sleeper customers poorly you should give coach a try. If you think coach is bad try walking down a platform as a trainspotter carrying a camera and no ticket. That's not to say times aren't tense right now, but Amtrak service issues predate the current distrust by decades.


Good and bad service has always been an issue on Amtrak... regardless of ethnicity or gender. I was waiting at the door for the EB to pull into SEA 6 hours late. The train was delayed again so a local could pull in ahead of it. Mentioned to the attendant that it didn't seem right to make us wait when we're already so late and I have a long way to drive ahead. He sneered and told me that 'They also have connections to make, sir. You shouldn't just be thinking about yourself.' This guy had an attitude for the entire trip. As he was being so noxious I kept in my pocket the $20 tip I was going to give him and just walked off the train.

All he would have had to say is... "I feel your frustration" and he would have had that tip.


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## Nick Farr (Aug 17, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What was your favorite Amtrak dish before the contemporary meals?



Tie between the Signature Steak and the Mussels.

I have no idea how they managed to make Mussels happen, and they weren't the HIGHEST quality but I've definitely had worse in seafood restaurants.


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 17, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What was your favorite Amtrak dish before the contemporary meals?


Steak and shrimp... what an indulgence... and how very much it added to the adventure and excitement of rail travel!


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## Nick Farr (Aug 17, 2020)

TheCrescent said:


> I wonder why: railroads being a more masculine culture, pay differences, railroad culture generally, unions, government vs. private sector or what



I'm focused primarily on LD trains and what I've observed. Happy to be corrected on any of this.

*The key issue as I see it is that there's no incentive for Amtrak Onboard Services staff (OBS) to provide good customer service.* Secondary is training, standard procedures and the tools to enable OBS to provide a customer service experience.

I've seen OBS staff who are really dedicated to doing a good job slowly get worn down by the OBS who "tow the line" of "managing the self-loading cargo".

Setting the Union Contract aside, there are a few things I see that could improve this:

Go to 100% Electronic Ordering/Service: Let the computers do the work of figuring out which passengers are getting which meals at which times. Put orders and service items in a POS like almost any restaurant today. Let the computer figure out inventory and report that back so things can get restocked properly. This would also enable sleeper car customers to get cafe car items instead of flex dining, or reminders to bring coffee to customers as selected times. It would also possibly enable better communication between OBS.
Empower the LSA to task OBS during idle times.
Better training:
Customer service is all about training: Train people to say "I understand your frustration". Give them scenarios. Help them improve continuously.
Cross-train all OBS: Let SCA help out in the Dining Car during rushes. Have the LSA cover for the Cafe Car attendant during their breaks. Open up the upstairs wet bar for drinks when the Observation Car is packed. Let the OBS with personality and who do higher sales numbers train/share tips with those who aren't selling as much.
Train OBS staff to do things in the off-hours to help improve overall service. Things like deep-cleaning idle rooms or having pleasant conversation with the sleeper car passengers.

Every Sleeping Car customer gets a survey. Have them see if they remember their SCA's name. Build metrics around OBS who are hitting and not hitting their numbers and build an incentive around getting good surveys and making people answer surveys.
*Make all management in the Long Distance Service Lines ride the trains end-to-end at least once quarterly. *
These are all things that every airline and most customer-service oriented agencies have done already.


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## Dakota 400 (Aug 17, 2020)

TheCrescent said:


> Not all Amtrak cafe car attendants have attitude (some are great) but attitude is frequent enough that it’s an expected downer when taking the train.



There is something that I have not seen mentioned in this discussion of "attitude". Perhaps contributing to the "negative/poor" attitudes of some staff members is the "attitudes" of some of the guests that they serve. 

On the Silver Meteor, the Cafe attendant was a rather sullen young man who looked depressed. I sat in the Lounge car for sometime enjoying my beverages and was able to observe him and the guests he served. I saw some unfriendly and disrespectful guests when he served them. He did his job; I saw no hostile reaction from him towards these individuals. When a guest was pleasant with the young man, there was a noticeable difference in his service. Most of the guests, including the pleasant ones, did not leave a tip. When the young man served me, I tried to be a bit conversational as he prepared my order. He nicely responded. After I had paid, I did put a tip in his tip container. His demeanor brightened, he smiled, and offered his thanks. 

Is it possible that some of those Amtrak staff members have been sufficiently dis-respected over their years of working for Amtrak that their "sour" attitudes now reflect the "sour" attitudes of some of their previous guests?


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## Nick Farr (Aug 17, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> Is it possible that some of those Amtrak staff members have been sufficiently dis-respected over their years of working for Amtrak that their "sour" attitudes now reflect the "sour" attitudes of some of their previous guests?



This applies to all customer service jobs. While I agree that Amtrak customers/passengers come from a much larger segment of the population and cover a much wider range of unacceptable behaviors, how OBS deal with it depends a lot on their training and incentives. I think they get extensive training on safety, use of equipment, railroad procedures, etc...but how much do they get on being nice to customers who are often not very nice themselves?


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 17, 2020)

TheCrescent said:


> American Airlines staff is overall good, with Admirals Club and on-board staff pretty consistently excellent. Much better than Amtrak. I wonder why: railroads being a more masculine culture, pay differences, railroad culture generally, unions, government vs. private sector or what?



As someone who has interviewed with almost all of the major airlines to be a flight attendant I feel somewhat qualified to say why the airlines are doing better. Airline pay really isn't as great as people make it out to be. The attendants are only paid from when the door closes to when the door opens. So that entire time when you are boarding or deplaning they are not being paid for that. So for a day of flying CLT-JFK-ORD even though they might leave at 0700 Eastern and arrive in Chicago at 1500 Central they are only paid for four hours instead of the entire 9 hours they are technically at work (airport and flight time). The other thing about the airlines as they have more visible competition than Amtrak. On most routes AA flies they are competing for passengers with UA, DL, and at least one or more of the ULC carriers. Which forces them to compete in terms of customer service. 

Me personally I don't like AA I find their staff especially the CLT ground staff to be very terse and unwelcoming. The flight attendants I've always found very nice and professional. But the ground staff can sink the initial impression and cause you to judge more unfairly. Now Amtrak is the only real passenger carrier for rail transport and one of very few land based ones. And as bad as we complain about Amtrak's service Greyhound is reported to be far worse. Now that being said Amtrak does compete with the airlines on markets in the NEC, other state corridors, and on the long distance network. 

I really wouldn't say the railroad is a more masculine culture just like I wouldn't say the airlines are more feminine. I think that has nothing to do with the equation. Amtrak is interesting because it's "Railroad Culture" was inherited from the many railroads that it originated from. The Silvers OBS is out of an old Seaboard base and generally the service has been very good. The Crescent, and CONO are out of New Orleans. One of my favorite memories is riding the Crescent back south and walking by the kitchen in the heritage dining car. The cooks we're singing old southern gospel which was amazing. Then you have Chicago which Amtrak seams to have inherited the Penn Central culture. 



MARC Rider said:


> Probably because Amtrak's on-board service is understaffed, and there's a lot of uncertainty about whether they'll even have jobs. And we really don't know how the OBS is treated by management, union, nor not.
> 
> If you treat your workers like disposable dirt, they'll just pass it on alsong.



That is exactly the truth right there. I've been several places not just in transport where the employees are treated like dirt and they pass that attitude along to the customer. I remember I was once grocery shopping and the manager made the cashier cry in front of customers. That type of behavior then made me realize that's why that store was nicknamed the "Hateful (insert store name here)" because the service was always horrible. Naturally I took the cashiers side, and called corporate to complain about that managers behavior. Things have since improved a bit after that manager has left. But things don't improve overnight. It's been five years since that manager left and that place is only marginally better despite having an almost completely new crew. 

Understaffing is definitely a problem at Amtrak on my last trip the SCA on the Crescent was responsible for two Viewliners instead of the average One car per SCA. Meaning they had 24 roomettes, and 6 bedrooms to make up. Which is more than a Superliner attendant has to deal with. Now granted that train wasn't overly full but still if you have a busy stop that is a very hard schedule to maintain for one employee. 

I think you are also right OBS doesn't tend to be treated well by management. I distinctly remember a Pacific Parlor Car attendant telling me about how strict Amtrak takes their inventory to the point he felt like he was being treated like a thief. My general feeling is if you treat someone like a thief long enough eventually they will become one. That also goes for the same theory if you treat someone like dirt long enough they will eventually become like what you are treating them. However if you treat them the opposite way and actively take an interest in making their lives better, treat them with respect they become better employees. 



20th Century Rider said:


> View attachment 18483



I just want to know what airline that was on because Chicken Tenders sounds like a much better option than what I normally get on a flight.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 17, 2020)

Nick Farr said:


> I'm focused primarily on LD trains and what I've observed. Happy to be corrected on any of this.



As I don't know how to split the quote up I've taken your post and I'm going to Italic what you said vs. my thoughts which will be non italic. 

_Go to 100% Electronic Ordering/Service: Let the computers do the work of figuring out which passengers are getting which meals at which times. Put orders and service items in a POS like almost any restaurant today. Let the computer figure out inventory and report that back so things can get restocked properly. This would also enable sleeper car customers to get cafe car items instead of flex dining, or reminders to bring coffee to customers as selected times. It would also possibly enable better communication between OBS._

I assume you mean an electronic ordering system similar to what European restaurants use so that they can send the orders to the kitchen in real time. I think that it would work well but one thing that would have to be rectified is that several parts of the Amtrak network have little to no cell service so you would have to have a way to manage the inventory to back up off line, and then send to the cloud when the network returns. And there has to be a way to do communicating between the attendants and the LSA/Chef in these no service areas. Now something else that could work is a function on the Amtrak app that allows you to order service to your seat or your room at any time. Or if you don't want to add it to the app you could put it on the Amtrakconnect system. But then you have the problem of the western trains which don't have Amtrak Connect. 


_Empower the LSA to task OBS during idle times._

I think this would be a good thing. Granted there are only so many tasks one can do during the downtimes but Russian Railways tend to do a good job at finding tasks. They vacuum the corridors during the day which I've never seen an Amtrak attendant do on any trip. Granted Russian Railways offers far longer trips than Amtrak could ever dream of. And as someone who has worked on multiple all day excursions and other PV trips there are very few idle times in my opinion. Of course I've never been a car attendant on those trips I've always been mechanical or food service. But when I didn't have something to do I could easily find a restroom that needed cleaning, trash to be taken away, etc... In other words yes there are things the staff could do in their idle time to fight away the boredom. 

_


Better training:_

_Customer service is all about training: Train people to say "I understand your frustration". Give them scenarios. Help them improve continuously._
_Cross-train all OBS: Let SCA help out in the Dining Car during rushes. Have the LSA cover for the Cafe Car attendant during their breaks. Open up the upstairs wet bar for drinks when the Observation Car is packed. Let the OBS with personality and who do higher sales numbers train/share tips with those who aren't selling as much._
_Train OBS staff to do things in the off-hours to help improve overall service. Things like deep-cleaning idle rooms or having pleasant conversation with the sleeper car passengers._


I agree customer service is all about training. At my airline interviews were given scenarios in which to respond to common customer questions or problems. And it is very difficult at an interview because sometimes saying what is the right thing for the customer is the wrong thing for the company. But the quickest way to calm a customer is to understand what their problem is. Something that is often forgotten when flying or taking the train people are traveling for multiple reasons, funerals, job relocations, vacation, sickness, etc.... we don't know what someone is going thru when we talk to them. So the best thing we can try to do is put ourselves in the mindset of someone at their worst and try and understand what they are going thru. Something else to keep in the mind of an employee is for most Americans this could be their first train journey. They might not know the things employees and experienced travelers know about the processes and that requires understanding. It's not just at Amtrak but many companies and industries lack the empathy training. 

As far as cross training OBS I believe that they are. Someone could correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they are. I have often seen my SCA helping out in the diner during rushes. Now opening up the wet bar for drinks in the Sightseer Lounge sounds like a great idea because when people see something they are more likely to want it. And it wouldn't be hard to take a dining car server and post them in the bar at off hours. You are paying them the same regardless so why not utilize their time more efficiently. That being said I believe it has to be an LSA who serves alcohol which complicates things. But I do agree opening that bar would be a good idea. I don't personally like the idea of a tip share because it seams to me like the shining stars would be losing money if the rest of the service doesn't pick up. Then they would be less likely to serve their passengers better because they lose that incentive. 

I believe training them to do things in the off hours would be a wonderful thing. Look at VIA Rail Canada their employees offer incredible service. I remember on my last trip on the Canadian one of the SCAs gave a lecture about the Canadian Farm because he used to be a farmer in the area the train was passing. So he gave an hour long lecture and question and answer session about what it is like to farm. It keeps the passengers happy, and it gives someone who otherwise would be sitting in their room waiting for a call something to do to keep boredom from taking over. Pleasant conversation with passengers in my opinion is one of the best things an employee can do. That being said it is difficult to judge if someone is open to it because they may or may not be. 

On my last trip on the Crescent I had a great SCA and we talked about trains and shared our photos of trains to each other for at least a good two or three hours in his downtime. It was really enjoyable for me because it was someone to talk to, and enjoyable for him to have someone who had the same hobby as him. 
_
_

_Every Sleeping Car customer gets a survey. Have them see if they remember their SCA's name. Build metrics around OBS who are hitting and not hitting their numbers and build an incentive around getting good surveys and making people answer surveys._
I'm not sure that is the best metric for OBS satisfaction because I can barely remember peoples names I see on a daily basis much less a survey weeks after a trip. I do agree that every passenger should get a survey. Of note I only really remember one of my attendants name in the past and thats because he was so out of the ordinary I couldn't forget it. The only time I've seen a coach attendant give a speech about maintaining a restroom. I was impressed and I've heard he has been promoted. 



_*Make all management in the Long Distance Service Lines ride the trains end-to-end at least once quarterly. *_
While we are at it we should make the entire executive team at Amtrak do it. Even better do it undercover boss style and disguise them because someone like Mr. Stephen Gardner might be surprised at what is mentioned about him candidly. The problem about most management and executive trips is the employees get notice that they are on board prior to when the trip occurs. So they are on their toes more and provide better service. Now if they are riding unannounced that provides a better metric because the employees are less likely to be putting on a show to please management. Especially if the management or executives know how to pose as a railfan, or someone in the industry who knows the names of management and can ask the opinion of the current management. Most of them would be really surprised at what the employees think about them. Most of which is based on how the employees feel about the management not asking them for input on job changes. 



Dakota 400 said:


> There is something that I have not seen mentioned in this discussion of "attitude". Perhaps contributing to the "negative/poor" attitudes of some staff members is the "attitudes" of some of the guests that they serve.
> 
> Is it possible that some of those Amtrak staff members have been sufficiently dis-respected over their years of working for Amtrak that their "sour" attitudes now reflect the "sour" attitudes of some of their previous guests?



Yes the passengers attitude are often hard to keep up with especially after constant hours of dealing with it. The public unfornately feel like they are entitled to just about everything these days which is a problem. And that sense of entitlement and talking down to service workers most definitely can reflect in sour attitudes. Now there is nothing the company can do about that. However we as passengers should remember that when we travel. I try and always maintain a lighthearted mood, that likes to cut up and make jokes. I always treat people with respect, but I find the humor relaxes people. Once you can get someone laughing it instantly makes someone feel better. A little bit of understanding on the side of passengers would go a long way into helping the crew. Just like some understanding from the crew would greatly help the passengers.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 17, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> But the ground staff can sink the initial impression and cause you to judge more unfairly. Now Amtrak is the only real passenger carrier for rail transport and one of very few land based ones. And as bad as we complain about Amtrak's service Greyhound is reported to be far worse. Now that being said Amtrak does compete with the airlines on markets in the NEC, other state corridors, and on the long distance network.


One of the competitive advantages for Amtrak is that the experience with "ground staff" is of much lesser importance than when flying, at least for shorter corridor trips. For example, when I ride the NEC up to New York or Washington or Boston, etc., I can roll out of my car, go down to the platform, and board the train without ever having to interact with "ground staff." Of course, there are the "cattle lines" in Boston, New York, Philly, and DC. When I travel from those stations, being a frequent traveler, I can use the lounges, so there's one place where "ground staff" service is important. Generally, they do pretty well, though some of the lounges have some quirky rules, like no eating outside food in the DC lounge. Baggage checking is another thing, though I may be one of the only people in the world who checks baggage on the NEC, and that's my ski stuff to/from Boston once a year, and I do that the day before the trip. 

If you want to fly between NEC points, you have to go through the same ground ringamarole that people flying around the world have to do -- check in, security check, go to the gate line up to board, etc. Maybe you can use the airline app to check in early, and maybe you can avoid checking luggage, but you're stuck with dealing with ground staff. If I ride the Acela (or the Regional), I can use the app to buy my ticket 5 minutes before the train leaves. (Actually, I have bought them on the train before the conductor comes through, but that's living dangerously, especially in Baltimore with tunnels on each side of the station, where cell service is dropped.) Basically, I can get to the station 5-10 minutes before train time and make my train without having to interact with anybody. I'm pretty militant about arriving at the airport 2 hours early, because once I arrived an hour and a half early and missed my flight, the check-in lines were so long (and I was pre-checked in, too).

Long distance might be a bit different. On the one hand, there are unstaffed stations -- no need to worry about "ground staff", but you might wonder whether or not the train will ever arrive.  A lot of long distance trips involve transiting Chicago, so you're either going to be dealing with the cattle lines and inadequate waiting rooms or the service in the lounge, so the "ground staff" there is more important. Also, more likelihood of checking baggage for an LD trip, so there's that "ground staff" too. In general, I'm pretty satisfied with the "ground staff" service at Amtrak stations, but then, I'm pretty easy to please, and most of the time I don't have to deal with anybody.


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