# Pets vs Service animals



## gracious Traveler

First of all, Thank You for this forum.

I have been taking Coast to Coast Amtrak trips as well as up and down both coats and into Canada for a number of years, so I'm no "newbie". I have endure trains 2.5 days late (a now well-remembered trip by Amtrak people); two days with a broken toilet, a freshly urine-stained couch in my bedroom. and other unpleasantries, without complaint. I don't want to be a bother to train staff.

My Sea-to-sea journey last year was marred by more than one issue; dogs on the train!

Amtrak's published guidelines state that all non-service animals, including "comfort Animals", "Search and Rescue Dogs", and yes, "Police Dogs" are 
Pets", and must be kept in appropriate kennels at all times - in the station and on the train. These "pets" are not allowed in any area where food is sold or consumed.

Clear?

An allowed "Service Animal" must be "trained to perform a specific task for the benefit of a person with disabilities". These trained animals must be properly documented and must be identified. They must be on the floor at the side of their owners at all times; which they are trained to do.

Why, then was a woman allowed to bring her dog into the Dining Car, be given a seat, and allowed to feed from the table in front of me? When confronted, she said, I can't do anything without "Pookie". "I need Pookie!"

When I asked both the Dining Car Host and the conductor about this, their bemused response was; "'Comfort animal'. Legal'". Wrong on both counts. According to

Amtrak, Pookie is not a service animal by definition, and it was not to be allowed in the Dining Car.

Does anyone know if this has been corrected? I will appreciate any knowledge before embarking with print-outs of all of the rules this year.


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## BCL

This should be fun......


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## PVD

Yes, there is clear distinction in the rules that airlines are stuck with regarding emotional support animals, and the much more rational rules that are (supposed to be) in effect on Amtrak. It warrants a written complaint, specifying specific train, date and time.


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## Guest

Thanks, PVD. Too late for a complaint now. I'll hope it's better this time. I will take the rules with me and keep notes en route. I am far from shy about written, emailed and phone complaints. Nor about compliments. Done it all. A call about how wonderful a particular journey was sends a wave of relief through a CS agent.

And then, BCL, after a superb Philly to Emeryville Amtrak journey, I will enjoy some San Francisco on Memorial Day and the week after.

Anyone else experience this dog situation?


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## Lonestar648

If specific violations are not reported, these instances will increase. This could be resolved simply by Amtrak educating their staffs on the rules, the proper way to handle each situation without making a scene and also how to handle someone who was previously allowed to violate the rules and now is not. If the rules are very specific, then it helps the staffs because there is no room for interpretation. It may be as simple as the staff needs to be educated which also means what Amtrak considers a service animal (size, weight, etc.is a great dane too big). Also, for those with service animals, there should be rules notifying them ahead of a stop for the animal to relieve themselves, especially on a long trip.


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## anuenue

I haven't experienced a dog/pet situation on Amtrak, but have in other situations. I'm afraid of dogs, and can tolerate service animals and police dogs only because I keep telling myself they're well trained and won't engage with me.

I'm sympathetic to people who truly need emotional support animals. However, I don't think their rights should trump my right to not be put into what, for me, is an emotionally trying circumstance.

Does Amtrak require any kind of advanced notice when a support animal will be on board? Is there any sort of declaration that said animal IS a support animal? Any penalty for lying?


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## Gracious Traveler

Because I started this discussion, and have done my homework; Yes, there are size and many other restrictions. For "pets" (e.g. Comfort animals.)

- 20 lbs or less.

- Must fit comfortably in the appropriate carrier, and remain in that carrier at all times.

- A "Service animal" must have been trained in a certified training facility for the disability of its owner, who must show documents if asked, and the animal must be identified as service animal with halter. And must stay on the floor next to their owner (which they are, of course, trained to do.

- Pet owners must notify Amtrak and pay necessary fees before boarding.

- Thank heaven for this rule: "Train Personnel have the right to remove animals for any infraction at any time". Won't they have fun with their Shih-Tsu out there in the desert with the person who was caught smoking on the train?!

N.B. There are websites out there from whom People can purchase "authentic" looking documents "proving an emotional need of the pet. Complete with phony seals! What AmtrakCrew Member has the time to deal with stuff like that. Phony document or not, it's still a "pet", and not a trained "Service Animal" for a disability.


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## TinCan782

Coincidentally, on KABC-7 in Los Angeles this morning ...

http://abc7.com/news/service-animals-like-pigs-lizards-on-airplanes-raising-new-concerns/1773786/


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## PVD

You don't get advance notice for a support animal, because as a category, it is not recognized by Amtrak. Pets, which have specific rules and reservation requirements for the trains they are allowed on, and service dogs which have their own rules. There are some special provisions for police and rescue animals when appropriate. The problem of abuse of the support animal category on airlines, and the fake service dog deal has been garnering much attention lately.


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## Ryan

Gracious Traveler said:


> - A "Service animal" must have been trained in a certified training facility for the disability of its owner, who must show documents if asked, and the animal must be identified as service animal with halter. And must stay on the floor next to their owner (which they are, of course, trained to do.


Untrue. From the Blue Book:





The only exception to this is for seizure detection animals that are required to sit next to the passenger (not at their feet as you also mention in your comments). In order to be permitted to occupy a seat, a note from a doctor is required (also mentioned in the screen shot above.

Service Animals are also permitted dining car access:


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## Gracious Traveler

Thanks, FrensicPic! That clip says it all. And points up what people are trying to get away with -- both pets and pet owners. The final statement by the anchor says it: "It is against the law ... to try to pass your pet off as a service animal".

And of course, dogs who specialize in seizures are specially trained. Tough to train your duck or your pig or you iguana for that. Well, pigs, perhaps.

When will the Airlines catch up with Amtrak? There's a good one for us!!

Thank you to everyone for this lively conversation.


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## BCL

PVD said:


> Yes, there is clear distinction in the rules that airlines are stuck with regarding emotional support animals, and the much more rational rules that are (supposed to be) in effect on Amtrak. It warrants a written complaint, specifying specific train, date and time.


There's always room for some discretion. I looked up the service manual, and I couldn't find anything that says they're absolutely not allowed on board - only that they're not required to allow such an animal on board. The policy about personal alcohol being consumed outside of rooms is often ignored at the discretion of the Amtrak employee.

I've Amtrak Police dogs on board before, including entering a cafe car, so either they were violating a rule against pets or they were operating within the rules.

I know of no legal requirement that a service animal must receive some sort of certification. The DoJ guidance for determining what is or isn't a service animal says that the only thing that can be requested is what job does a particular service animal do. I've seen plenty of service animals that weren't identified with anything, including a seizure dog I once saw wearing nothing but a normal, unmarked harness. It's pretty obvious that any animal on a train must be well behaved.

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. When a person who is allergic to dog dander and a person who uses a service animal must spend time in the same room or facility, for example, in a school classroom or at a homeless shelter, they both should be accommodated by assigning them, if possible, to different locations within the room or different rooms in the facility.


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## Ryan

BCL said:


> There's always room for some discretion. I looked up the service manual, and I couldn't find anything that says they're absolutely not allowed on board


It's there, in bold and all caps even...


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## KmH

Also, and from Service Manual #8 page 11-26:



> • Although there may be a few people who try to “beat the system” by bringing pets on-board the train, most passengers with disabilities claiming to have service animals really do have service animals.
> • Since access for persons with disabilities traveling with service animals is a civil right covered under the ADA, employees should err on the side of caution by permitting access to passenger areas. If the animal looks like a service animal and the customer says it is a service animal welcome the animal aboard.
> d) *Not a Service Animal*
> • If an animal is determined not to be a service animal, the animal can be denied access to Amtrak premises.
> 11-26 Assisting Passengers with Disabilities
> • On the rare occasion that an animal has to be excluded from Amtrak premises, you should handle the situation in a polite and professional manner.
> • When an animal is excluded from Amtrak premises while en route, the employee making this decision must complete a “Passenger incident Report” (NRPC 3200) detailing the incident.


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## BCL

I get all that, although the 2011 version of the manual seems to leave room for leeway. I certainly see that some rules have been relaxed or even ignored by Amtrak staff, including baggage size restrictions, personal alcohol, or consumption of personal food in dining areas.

I really don't see that much of a difference between a by the book service animal and comfort animal in terms of dander.

I also found more detailed information about search and rescue dogs and police dogs, and the restriction is about those from outside agencies, where they're subject to the regular pet policy. The 20 lbs limit would seem to exclude most working dogs. Amtrak Police are specifically exempt. The policy also gives Amtrak Police the discretion to make exceptions (allowing larger dogs and/being allowed outside a carry case) on a case by case basis.


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## Hal

It has become a general problem in the USA. Since there is no certification of service animals required people more and more exploit that loophole. I have seen more and more dogs in supermarkets and restaurants. Everyone is worried about being sued so they are afraid to do anything about the animals. Your Amtrak employee has the rules but are also afraid to enforce them. They are afraid they won't be backed up if they question the function of the animal. Management is also afraid of getting sued so I believe that they would rather the crew look the other way and the crews know that. Unless the animal bites someone, or snarles at someone which has happened, the animal will continue on its way. People in service occupations fear doing anything about fake service animals and I think their fear of doing anything is justified.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Lonestar648

Something I learned about Service animals is that their owners will tell you not to touch the animal while they are on duty. A PTSD vet said his dog knew when he could relax looking after him and when he was on duty. The vet also said that he had to make sure there was off duty time each day. I have learned that a service animal doesn't bark unless to get the attention of the owner in an emergency. The vet said the only time his fog has barked was to get his attention that he was in real trouble and needed immediate assistance. A true service animal is very special, because so many don't have what it takes.


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## BCL

Lonestar648 said:


> Something I learned about Service animals is that their owners will tell you not to touch the animal while they are on duty. A PTSD vet said his dog knew when he could relax looking after him and when he was on duty. The vet also said that he had to make sure there was off duty time each day. I have learned that a service animal doesn't bark unless to get the attention of the owner in an emergency. The vet said the only time his fog has barked was to get his attention that he was in real trouble and needed immediate assistance. A true service animal is very special, because so many don't have what it takes.


The really tough thing about any working dog is not necessarily that it's working, but it's still a dog. They still appreciate and need affection since they're not robots. I've saw people approach a guide dog while the handler was seated, and the dog accepted the affection. I've played with an off duty police dog.

There's a reason why many service and work dogs now carry warnings to not approach. A lot of people don't understand.


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## tomfuller

On a trip northbound on the CS from CMO to EUG, I was assigned a seat in the rear half of the car. When I got to the top of the stairs, there was a rather large guy sleeping in the first seats. He did have a leash attached to the collar of the dog (over 20 lb). The dog (also sleeping) had no halter and its nose was more than halfway across the aisle. Both I and the Conductor stepped over the dogs head both getting on the train and leaving the train in Eugene. I have no idea where he and the dog got on or how far they went.

I follow the rule: "Let sleeping dogs lie".


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## Eric S

I wonder if the phenomenon of people claiming pets as service animals will eventually force a policy change with some sort of visible licensing or documentation for service animals being required. (Not making a prediction, not arguing for or against anything, just thinking out loud, so to speak.)


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## Gracious Traveler

This has all been very interesting, and I'm glad I brought it up. So in the interest of enlightenment for all of us "Am-trekkers", here is a direct quote from the American with Disabilities Act Title !!; Section II:

"A service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability .... Emotional support animals, comfort animals, and therapy doges are not service animals under Title II and Title III of the ADA"

So I have copies of the Act and all Amtrak published rules in my briefcase for my nest Amtrak trips. So take note, Amtrak. And sorry for all og=f the expensive sites that charge for (phoney) documents that claim to get you on planes. Note that these sites make no claim to boarding a train with the false documents.

And sorry, Lady, if you just "never go anywhere without 'Pookie', you'll just stay at home with Pookie.

Oh, I am a passionate dog- lover. Have been all of my life. Real dogs; not stuffed animals!

Thanks again for this forum, everyone. Happy and inspired travels


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## Gracious Traveler

Addendum:

Besides the well-known "seeing eye dogs", there are service dogs for the deaf; certain types of autism or PTSD wherein certain repetitive actions, lights, sounds, etc. that cause psychiatric responses; as well as dogs that are trained to assist their owner experiencing seizures. All of these are diagnosed disabilities.

These dogs are incredible.


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## BCL

Gracious Traveler said:


> So I have copies of the Act and all Amtrak published rules in my briefcase for my nest Amtrak trips. So take note, Amtrak. And sorry for all og=f the expensive sites that charge for (phoney) documents that claim to get you on planes. Note that these sites make no claim to boarding a train with the false documents.


I'm not sure the way you're going about this is going to get you a whole lot of sympathy on board a train. I understand that people worried about being denied service or amenities may have a legitimate reason to know and cite the rules. However, being upset that others are given some leeway may not be a great way to go about one's travels.

We discuss perceived abuses of service animal rules because it's fun to joke about it. However, it doesn't become fun if a heated argument ensues, someone else gets put off the train, or an employee gets reprimanded. It's certainly not going to be very comfortable if you run into an Amtrak employee who responds to a passenger quoting chapter and verse of service manuals with "Who are you to tell me how to do my job?" They have a hard enough time dealing with everyday situations.

Even if every case where there's abuse of the system was eliminated, that leaves plenty of other cases where it's a legitimate working animal allowed under the rules. You cite prohibitions against police dogs being outside of a carrying case, but don't note that Amtrak PD dogs are specifically allowed, and that Amtrak PD has the discretion to approve outside agencies' police/SAR animals to be on a train outside of a case and beyond the 20 lbs limit.


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## Hal

Gracious Traveler said:


> So I have copies of the Act and all Amtrak published rules in my briefcase for my nest Amtrak trips. So take note, Amtrak. And sorry for all og=f the expensive sites that charge for (phoney) documents that claim to get you on planes. Note that these sites make no claim to boarding a train with the false documents.
> 
> And sorry, Lady, if you just "never go anywhere without 'Pookie', you'll just stay at home with Pookie.


Unless you are an Amtrak employee you don't have Amtrak's published rules in your briefcase. Whatever was published here is several years old. It may or may not have changed.


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## BCL

Hal said:


> Gracious Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I have copies of the Act and all Amtrak published rules in my briefcase for my nest Amtrak trips. So take note, Amtrak. And sorry for all og=f the expensive sites that charge for (phoney) documents that claim to get you on planes. Note that these sites make no claim to boarding a train with the false documents.
> 
> And sorry, Lady, if you just "never go anywhere without 'Pookie', you'll just stay at home with Pookie.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you are an Amtrak employee you don't have Amtrak's published rules in your briefcase. Whatever was published here is several years old. It may or may not have changed.
Click to expand...

I certainly get why the OP is upset, but I don't get the attitude about somehow being the enforcer and laying down the hammer.

There's a whole bunch of stuff where Amtrak employees have a certain level of discretion to do their jobs. Putting off a passenger is possibly the most difficult thing they might do. I'm sure they detest the paperwork, calling for law enforcement to meet the passenger, and confronting the passenger. Sometimes is just not worth it.


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## Lonestar648

The media will always be bias against Amtrak, so management doesn't want a confrontation over a grey area pertaining to pets that goes viral, even if in the long run Amtrak is in the right. From a PR stand point Amtrak management will look the other way until it becomes a safety use.


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## me_little_me

The best solution, IMHO, is for the feds to contract with the ASPCA who would certify training facilities. Only those facilities would be able to issue a dated (expiration date) tag (to be attached to the animal) in one color for service animals and another for comfort animals. The ASPCA would be required to annually check the facilities. Thus, places that allow service (or service plus comfort) animals would not have to question the owner but would be allowed to verify the tag. The tag should have picture of animal, description and barcode. No info as to disability need be on the tag.


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## PVD

Under the current law an individual or family can train a dog to perform a specific task, in which case it would qualify. If we can add something that covers that situation, it would certainly be a step in the right direction. It might be more than one agency needed to cover the whole country, and different types of service, but it is a start of a worthwhile dialog.


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## FormerOBS

Several years ago somebody brought a "comfort animal" into the diner and insisted on keeping the dog in his lap during the meal. We insisted that the dog had to be kept below the level of the table top because there were other passengers sharing the table. The dining car was entirely full, and we did not have the option of moving anybody to another seat. The dog's owner complained, and Management decided we had handled it wrong. Interestingly, they never said what we should have done instead, and never showed us a definitive rule to guide our actions in the future. Go figure.

True service animals are well trained and well behaved wherever they are. Pets are entirely different, and home-trained "service animals" are unpredictable. I loved the real service animals I encountered, but I know of situations where untrained animals created messes, were disruptive, behaved poorly, barked, and even bit passengers and employees.

By the way, I'm a dog owner. He's my good friend, but I don't pretend he's a service animal.

Tom


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## PVD

The law and the company rules are clear that a comfort animal has no place in the diner. It is unfortunate that management has been spayed or neutered instead of the dog. If they won't back up the people on the front lines when they need support, they are useless. Comfort animals are not permitted on Amtrak unless traveling as pets, in which case they need to be in a carrier, and never in a food service area.


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## Gracious Traveler

Thank you, Tom. You understand and are clear in your thoughts.

I also am a long-time dog owner-lover. Not at or indeed eating from dinner plates at table.

Also, I would like to be absolutely clear that I am not one of the high dudgeon complainers that some here are speaking of. I am often thanked by staff at the end of our trip for being so pleasant and nice. I carry that compliment with pride. I wear a jacket at dinner because I was taught to do so, and because I respect the staff who works very hard to make things right for the passengers.


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## amamba

me_little_me said:


> The best solution, IMHO, is for the feds to contract with the ASPCA who would certify training facilities. Only those facilities would be able to issue a dated (expiration date) tag (to be attached to the animal) in one color for service animals and another for comfort animals. The ASPCA would be required to annually check the facilities. Thus, places that allow service (or service plus comfort) animals would not have to question the owner but would be allowed to verify the tag. The tag should have picture of animal, description and barcode. No info as to disability need be on the tag.


thats not really what the aspca does, and how would that be funded?


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## Ryan

Tom, you left out the most important detail of the story, how well did the dog tip after the meal? h34r:


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## FormerOBS

Ryan,

The dog didn't tip, but I don't hold it against him because he didn't have opposable thumbs.

The owner, on the other hand ........................

Tom

P.S. Actually, the dog was a cute little guy. I have no bad feelings towards him. :giggle:


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## me_little_me

amamba said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best solution, IMHO, is for the feds to contract with the ASPCA who would certify training facilities. Only those facilities would be able to issue a dated (expiration date) tag (to be attached to the animal) in one color for service animals and another for comfort animals. The ASPCA would be required to annually check the facilities. Thus, places that allow service (or service plus comfort) animals would not have to question the owner but would be allowed to verify the tag. The tag should have picture of animal, description and barcode. No info as to disability need be on the tag.
> 
> 
> 
> thats not really what the aspca does, and how would that be funded?
Click to expand...

"the feds to contract with the ASPCA".


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## BCL

me_little_me said:


> "the feds to contract with the ASPCA".


They don't do that and I doubt they want to. They did contract with NYC to investigate animal abuse cases but lost that contract. That's actually their mission - to prevent animal abuse. They don't work through the entire gamut of animal facility inspection, and I doubt they want to.

The department that has the most experience with animals is the USDA. They're actually responsible for inspecting zoos, circuses, etc.


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## amamba

me_little_me said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best solution, IMHO, is for the feds to contract with the ASPCA who would certify training facilities. Only those facilities would be able to issue a dated (expiration date) tag (to be attached to the animal) in one color for service animals and another for comfort animals. The ASPCA would be required to annually check the facilities. Thus, places that allow service (or service plus comfort) animals would not have to question the owner but would be allowed to verify the tag. The tag should have picture of animal, description and barcode. No info as to disability need be on the tag.
> 
> 
> 
> thats not really what the aspca does, and how would that be funded?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "the feds to contract with the ASPCA".
Click to expand...

Regardless, that's not what the ASPCA does nor is it really in the scope of their mission.


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## Lonestar648

Right now this is not on anyone's agenda in Washington, even if it was, could easily be knocked down to a decision by each each state. Bottom line, until the abuse becomes a major news story, it will be long time before something is even considered.


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## KmH

http://www.aspca.org/about-us


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