# High Speed Rail is a white elephant just like the Monorail



## steamtrain6868 (Apr 8, 2011)

Watch this--- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw Marge Just like the Governers of Ohio and Wisconsin says that the streets are falling apart....The Musicman just like Lahood says that the monorail will put them on the map and if they dont build it here in Springfeild somebody else will get the money and build it there.


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## steamtrain6868 (Apr 8, 2011)

And the Cato Institution agrees with me

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/hsr-joe-biden-channels-the-simpsons/


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 8, 2011)

Yes, the Simpsons are always a good primary source.

Asinine.


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## Eric S (Apr 8, 2011)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Yes, the Simpsons are always a good primary source.
> 
> Asinine.


Well, perhaps as good as the Cato Institute.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 8, 2011)

Confused

Americans

Thinking

Outrageously

Add the word 'Institute' and you get a faux neo-libertarian authority. It's the same thing when you add the word 'Report' to 'Drudge'.


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## rrdude (Apr 8, 2011)

Steamtrain? Why do you even bother?


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 8, 2011)

The Cato Institute is like me at my laziest high school days, where I'd write a few websites to produce whatever "facts" and "sources" I wanted to insert into the paper, once I had written whatever I wanted to write, my "sources" and "facts" would be tailored to support whatever nonsense I wanted. I remember my paper I wrote, to see how much my teacher would pay attention, about the worlds first electrified subway, running from Atlanta to New York, with Harriet Tubman as conductor. I had all kinds of sources I had created from whole cloth.

Sadly, I got an A.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 8, 2011)

rrdude said:


> Steamtrain? Why do you even bother?


He could have at least found a better version of that song... YouTube has at least two HQ clips of that very same song.


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## Spokker (Apr 8, 2011)

It's weird to see so many rail fans against high speed rail. I mean, aren't we looking for passenger rail upgrades? Do these rail fans just want to go visit steam trains in museums and stuff?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 8, 2011)

Spokker said:


> It's weird to see so many rail fans against high speed rail. I mean, aren't we looking for passenger rail upgrades? Do these rail fans just want to go visit steam trains in museums and stuff?


This isn't a rail fan, steamtrain is a bus fan, a "rubber foamer" if I recall my terminology correctly. :lol:


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## ACVitale (Apr 8, 2011)

steamtrain6868 said:


> Watch this--- http://www.youtube.c...h?v=AEZjzsnPhnw Marge Just like the Governers of Ohio and Wisconsin says that the streets are falling apart....The Musicman just like Lahood says that the monorail will put them on the map and if they dont build it here in Springfeild somebody else will get the money and build it there.



Steamtrain6868, I am wondering why you continue to post items as the subject and have inane content.

Your post count is amazing in the short time on the board. But, so much of it is content that has already been covered and could have been found with a few minutes of review. Or in the alternative inane subject matter that is not relevant like references to the Simpsons as having any value. Much less linking the Simpsons episode to a CATO Institute paper.

Really now, Really?

Lets see some real content with more then a subject line and a one or two sentence blurb.. (Often trolling)... My four year old has more complete and rational comments on rail then the majority of what I have seen posted...

I will now return to the background in disgust


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## RRrich (Apr 9, 2011)

I loved the linkage of "the Simpsons" with the CATO Institute. Much like GML's mention of Harriet Tubman as Conductor of the railroad from ATL to NYP


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## Oldsmoboi (Apr 9, 2011)

not that I really agree with steamtrain, but aiming for Chinese maglev like speeds in this country is asinine. We need to walk before we can run.

Just getting some lines outside of the NEC to even Metroliner like speeds would be a vast improvement.


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## DET63 (Apr 9, 2011)

Streamtrain, as the name suggests, probably wants to go back to the days of trains pulled by steam engines.


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## mfastx (Apr 10, 2011)

Well if HSR didn't work everywhere else in the world I might give your statement a second of thought.


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## George Harris (Apr 11, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The Cato Institute is like me at my laziest high school days, where I'd write a few websites to produce whatever "facts" and "sources" I wanted to insert into the paper, once I had written whatever I wanted to write, my "sources" and "facts" would be tailored to support whatever nonsense I wanted. I remember my paper I wrote, to see how much my teacher would pay attention, about the worlds first electrified subway, running from Atlanta to New York, with Harriet Tubman as conductor. I had all kinds of sources I had created from whole cloth.
> 
> Sadly, I got an A.


And we wonder about some of the products of our education system?

I have family memebers that teach in public schools, and they are about to throw in the towel. Between a contingent of teachers like this particular one you experienced, students who don't care and are put in the class for social reasons, not ability to learn the subject, parents with a sense of entitlement that fell that all their family and child problems are somebody else's fault, and if in school, all the teacher's, it is just not worth killing yourself for no appreciation and littel results.


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## George Harris (Apr 11, 2011)

mfastx said:


> Well if HSR didn't work everywhere else in the world I might give your statement a second of thought.


Come on now: Why should facts affect an opinion developed without knowledge.


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## steamtrain6868 (Apr 13, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The Cato Institute is like me at my laziest high school days, where I'd write a few websites to produce whatever "facts" and "sources" I wanted to insert into the paper, once I had written whatever I wanted to write, my "sources" and "facts" would be tailored to support whatever nonsense I wanted. I remember my paper I wrote, to see how much my teacher would pay attention, about the worlds first electrified subway, running from Atlanta to New York, with Harriet Tubman as conductor. I had all kinds of sources I had created from whole cloth.
> 
> Sadly, I got an A.



You got a A for entertainment value--- I would love to see that paper today...matter of fact many people believe that the "Underground Railroad" was actualy underground and had "stations' in people basements who were abolitinests


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## steamtrain6868 (Apr 13, 2011)

THE FACT IS THIS----- The collective memory of this Simpson's Monorail Cartoon is all that we have or will know about high speed rail...Because of this stupid cartoon that many remember that was played on FOX....This is why many are skeptical of high speed rail


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## Trogdor (Apr 13, 2011)

steamtrain6868 said:


> THE FACT IS THIS----- The collective memory of this Simpson's Monorail Cartoon is all that we have or will know about high speed rail...Because of this stupid cartoon that many remember that was played on FOX....This is why many are skeptical of high speed rail


Do you even know what the word "fact" means? What you have stated is unsubstantiated (and outrageous) opinion. There are plenty of people out there who know plenty about high-speed rail. Just because the only thing you know about the world is what you saw on a cartoon (and you apparently form your opinions accordingly) doesn't mean everyone else is that way.


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## George Harris (Apr 13, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> steamtrain6868 said:
> 
> 
> > THE FACT IS THIS----- The collective memory of this Simpson's Monorail Cartoon is all that we have or will know about high speed rail...Because of this stupid cartoon that many remember that was played on FOX....This is why many are skeptical of high speed rail
> ...


The fact is, about the only way I would watch the Simpsons is firmly tied to a chair in front of the TV with my eyes glued open. I can't afford to burn out what few brain cells I have left.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 13, 2011)

steamtrain6868 said:


> THE FACT IS THIS----- The collective memory of this Simpson's Monorail Cartoon is all that we have or will know about high speed rail...Because of this stupid cartoon that many remember that was played on FOX....This is why many are skeptical of high speed rail


You're kidding, right?

A. The Simpsons isn't a 'stupid cartoon' by most measures

B. This episode aired in 1993... it is nearly 20 years old. I'm pretty sure most people who know about HSR form their opinions based on what they see TODAY not what they saw 20 years ago

C. The Simpsons didn't ruin HSR, politicians did


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## tp49 (Apr 14, 2011)

Oldsmoboi said:


> not that I really agree with steamtrain, but aiming for Chinese maglev like speeds in this country is asinine. We need to walk before we can run.
> 
> Just getting some lines outside of the NEC to even Metroliner like speeds would be a vast improvement.


I would argue the Chinese maglev is a white elephant (but not HSR) considering there is only one operating in the world and it runs between Longyang Lu and Pudong Airport. Also, at over US$1 per minute to ride (took it to go pick up my sister at PVG because the subway stops going to the airport at 21:00) it is not a cheap ride either. Also, the maglev didn't go at top speed either I have to check the picture I took of it going at its fastest overall I wasn't impressed by it especially not at 50 kwai one way.


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## George Harris (Apr 14, 2011)

tp49 said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> > not that I really agree with steamtrain, but aiming for Chinese maglev like speeds in this country is asinine. We need to walk before we can run.
> ...


You rode it after 21:00? I was there something like 5 to 6 years ago, and it stopped earlier than that, someing like 19:00, if I remember correctly. Also, it did get to its top speed, and stayed there for *8 seconds.* Wow!!


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## tp49 (Apr 15, 2011)

George Harris said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> > Oldsmoboi said:
> ...


Yes, I think the last one leaves the airport at 21:45 because the one I took out from Longyang Lu was the last one to PVG and I got on after 21:30.


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## RCrierie (May 12, 2011)

The GATEWAY project up in the Northeast to build a HSR line next to the existing Right of Way is supposed to cost $13.5B by 2020.

This would be all fine; except Amtrak has a $5.5b backlog of maintenance on the NEC and needs to cough up $12.3b over 15 years to replace 1,300 cars and 350 locomotives to maintain present service levels.

Think of all the money that's tied up in sexy sexy HSR that could revitalize a significant portion of Amtrak's fleet...


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## Anderson (May 12, 2011)

RCrierie said:


> The GATEWAY project up in the Northeast to build a HSR line next to the existing Right of Way is supposed to cost $13.5B by 2020.
> 
> This would be all fine; except Amtrak has a $5.5b backlog of maintenance on the NEC and needs to cough up $12.3b over 15 years to replace 1,300 cars and 350 locomotives to maintain present service levels.
> 
> Think of all the money that's tied up in sexy sexy HSR that could revitalize a significant portion of Amtrak's fleet...


It's a matter of priorities. IMHO, on the NEC mainline we're looking at diminishing returns once you get the tracks straightened out where you can and break a few bottlenecks (such as some speed-limited bridges). At some point, the costs start soaring to knock a couple of minutes off of service to Boston or DC...at some point, it simply ceases to be a good investment and you're better off either slapping additional tracks down next to the existing line to simply buffer capacity, buying new cars, or moving onto other projects. We can go on all day and all night about where that line is, but I don't think anyone is going to claim it doesn't exist.

So, let's weigh two alternatives: The doorstopper that Amtrak issued last year tallies about $40-75bn in costs. *ahem* _$40-75 billion_ in costs for an alignment . The California project has a similar problem, cost-wise, but that's CA's baby. So, let's assume that we can do that project. Or let's look at projects with a broader base...say, 125-150 MPH service down to Atlanta. The average cost per mile for the Charlotte-Atlanta segment runs $4.9-7.8m/mile, depending on the speed and whether you're putting up wires and whatnot (per the SEHSR folks' study). Even going at the high end, at $8m/mile, the cost is 1/10th of the NE HSR project's low-end estimate ($87.7m/mile) and about 1/20th of the high-end estimate ($164m/mile).

For the same cost that we can get the NE project done, in other words, we could upgrade...oh, I dunno...maybe half of the country's rail lines? Even assuming that you couldn't keep the cost under $20m/mile, $75 billion will get you 3750 miles of train corridor. In that, I can probably put the Washington-Atlanta line (634 miles) and two entire Washington-Miami alignments (assuming 1200 miles apiece), and have about 700 miles to throw in somewhere else (maybe upstate NY? How about Philly-Pittsburgh? Or even both?). Considering that a fair share of your WAS-MIA alignments are going to coincide, you'll probably have even a little more wiggle room...this is really a no-brainer to me.

The other, cynical advantage of this is that if you bundle this together with some other things, you can probably short out a decent amount of opposition because of local job creation. Not all (we all know that some Tea Party elements will be implacable), but a decent share all the same.

Edit: Another bone to chew on: Even assuming that you only sped things up down to Raleigh, NC...if you could hold an average of 80 MPH until Raleigh and then ran on the same timetable we have now, you'd whack just over two hours off various trains' schedules. Now, I know that part of this is coming out of engine switches in Washington, DC...but I think this is emblematic of what is doable at least on paper. I think an 80 MPH average on the Silver Meteor gets you to Miami in a hair over 17 hours, an improvement of something like 10 hours on the current timetable. On the Crescent route, you're looking at about 10:45 rather than the current 17:58. Big improvements? Yes. Doable on a far saner budget than what gets thrown around for those 220 MPH trains? I'd be shocked as anything if this wasn't_ far _cheaper to set up and run than those other alignments.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 12, 2011)

Gateway is NOT hsr. It is a reincarnation of a standard transhudson tunnel and general capacity improvement project. The main beneficiary is NJTransit.


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## jis (May 12, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Gateway is NOT hsr. It is a reincarnation of a standard transhudson tunnel and general capacity improvement project. The main beneficiary is NJTransit.


Well, coming out of the New Haven meeting, if the Lackawanna Coalition manages to kill and bury the Penn South part of the project then NJT will get close to zero benefit - weel additional reliability both running and timetable, which would be hard to get rid of if the tunnels are built). And if they further manage to reduce the 4 tracking plan to no additional tracks between Newark and Swift and only one additional track from Swift to the tunnels, then if anything NJT might have to reduce a few trains as Amtrak frequency picks up. Certainly the Raritan Valley folks won't get their one seat ride into penn Station under the LC plans.

I agree that what is euphemistically called Gateway I is all about Hudson Tunnels and 4 tracking between Newark and New York + Penn South.

Ironically what in the original Gateway proposal for HSR between Newark and Philadelphia, is what partly got funded, instead of Portal which would have been part of what is in Gateway I. But then again, since Christie was involved in some of the funding for Portal, I am not surprised that it got bypassed.


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## jis (May 12, 2011)

RCrierie said:


> The GATEWAY project up in the Northeast to build a HSR line next to the existing Right of Way is supposed to cost $13.5B by 2020.
> 
> This would be all fine; except Amtrak has a $5.5b backlog of maintenance on the NEC and needs to cough up $12.3b over 15 years to replace 1,300 cars and 350 locomotives to maintain present service levels.
> 
> Think of all the money that's tied up in sexy sexy HSR that could revitalize a significant portion of Amtrak's fleet...


The GATEWAY project involves no HSR line, unless you consider 90mph as HSR - well maybe so in rest of the country, but on the NEC it is pokey slow speed. It has more to do with reliability and capacity than speed. That is why it is not surprising that it did not get any significant funding from HSR grants (well there are other political reasons too, but let us ignore that for the moment  ).

If the issues addressed by the Gateway project are not addressed in the next decade, with the Portal Bridge at the bottom of the river or stuck perpetually open and the tunnels becoming less and less reliable (already one is shut down for the entire weekend every weekend), then all those 1300 new cars and locomotives will be able to maintain two separate services, - one between Newark and Washington DC and the other between New York and Boston.  Coming to think of it we can also save on the money since without through service to New York demand will go down drastically thus not requiring those cars anymore 

So there is nothing sexy about Gateway. It is all about critical redundancy, reliability and capacity work. Pretty nuts and bolts stuff.


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## RCrierie (May 12, 2011)

jis said:


> So there is nothing sexy about Gateway. It is all about critical redundancy, reliability and capacity work. Pretty nuts and bolts stuff.


What, you mean Wikipedia lied to me? Say it ain't so!


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## jis (May 12, 2011)

RCrierie said:


> What, you mean Wikipedia lied to me? Say it ain't so!


:hi:


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## Devil's Advocate (May 12, 2011)

jis said:


> The GATEWAY project involves no HSR line, unless you consider 90mph as HSR - well maybe so in rest of the country, but on the NEC it is pokey slow speed.


On my trips along the NEC we averaged somewhere in the 65-75 MPH range. Which is about what I average driving across Texas. I guess I missed the option for the train that averages well above 90MPH. :huh:


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## jis (May 12, 2011)

daxomni said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The GATEWAY project involves no HSR line, unless you consider 90mph as HSR - well maybe so in rest of the country, but on the NEC it is pokey slow speed.
> ...


Take any Acela from Metropark to Philly. You will average above 90mph.

OTOH I think in the context of this thread you are confusing average speed with max speed, because when I said 90mph in the earlier post I was talking of max allowed speed.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 12, 2011)

jis said:


> Take any Acela from Metropark to Philly. You will average above 90mph. OTOH I think in the context of this thread you are confusing average speed with max speed, because when I said 90mph in the earlier post I was talking of max allowed speed.


Sometimes the measurement that evokes a far stronger emotional response but plays a far lesser role in the final outcome isn't the best one to focus on. That's all I'm trying to get at. ^_^


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## Anderson (May 12, 2011)

jis said:


> RCrierie said:
> 
> 
> > The GATEWAY project up in the Northeast to build a HSR line next to the existing Right of Way is supposed to cost $13.5B by 2020.
> ...


Part of the reason I throw it in with that doorstopper of a project is that Amtrak does so as well. The tunnel is probably the single best part of the plan (even if it is expensive as anything).

By the way...split services at NYC blocked by the Hudson River...wow. Now _there's_ a setback to the 19th century.


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## Anderson (May 13, 2011)

A point on earlier discussions: On chewing through numbers in my head, I'm actually starting to think that there isn't a solid market for ultra-HSR in the NYP-WAS or BOS-NYP markets unless Amtrak is willing to either back down on the Acela's prices, wipe out First Class on the Acela, or to "eat" some of the extra operating cost. WAS-BOS may indeed be another story entirely, but that market is _far_ smaller than the other two.

From a business standpoint, Amtrak has a de facto monopoly on high speed rail, and that isn't likely to go away. Assuming a $40 billion price tag for such a project, a 5% return on investment would require a $2 billion/year profit, or $50/passenger (about what the Acelas are pulling down right now) on 40 million passengers. Unless ultra-HSR somehow starts attracting daily commuters from Arlington to Manhattan (something that sounds like science fiction in many ways...a daily commute that passes through eight states), and the daily cost is likely to be prohibitive in the extreme for that (again, to get to $50/passenger, you're going to be looking at near-peak tickets running somewhere around $250-300 in real terms each way...in BC. That's $3000/week...not happening). Mind you, $40 billion is the lowball...at $75 billion, you're looking at having to pull that on 75 million passengers per year.

So the private sector won't be building their own alignments in the region, except _possibly_ as additional corridors to feed into the trunk line...and even there, you'd be looking at lower-cost options that can work with narrower alignments. Even then, though, the margins versus construction cost just don't seem attractive enough to pull in large-scale private sector investment. As such, you've got a monopoly, and Amtrak is increasingly going to be competing with itself: It has the airlines on time for the largest market in the region, and it's never going to win on price alone.

So we move on to a question of rational action. Let us assume that time is money, as the saying goes. If time is money, however, then time ultimately has a finite value. If you could teleport between two locations but it cost $10,000...most folks would obviously take a pass. If time is valued at $100/hour, then paying an extra $100 to save 45 minutes traveling from NYP-WAS is going to be an irrational decision. At $150/hour, it is a rational one. So it's going to come down to how much you can sell folks on rushing from A to B just a little bit faster. Simply making ultra-HSR the new "first class", if Amtrak sales figures are any indication, isn't going to be enough to support such an operation on its own...the 45 minutes might do it for some folks, but it'll likely price a lot more people out of the market at the same time.

Chewing this through, the answer seems to be to instead focus on arranging additional 125 MPH/160 MPH alignments with competitive travel times between locations if Amtrak needs more capacity. On BOS-NYP, this might mean a Springfield or a Hartford alignment that can use "Acela compatible" equipment. On NYP-WAS, it might mean an alignment that skips Philadelphia (obviously not ideal) or one that takes a bit longer while picking up other areas to the north or south of Philly. And of course, adding side-alignments that hook into the overall operation with guaranteed connections can't hurt the core's numbers (extending the line down to Richmond jumps to mind, albeit with obvious technical issues...though electrifying and upgrading the RF&P main is probably an easier prospect than entirely new alignments through CT or MA), though whether any of the feeder alignments could justify themselves financially in this context is a tough question.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 13, 2011)

jis said:


> Well, coming out of the New Haven meeting, if the Lackawanna Coalition manages to kill and bury the Penn South part of the project then NJT will get close to zero benefit...


Speaking as myself, Jishnu, I am not onboard with Joe Clift and Jim Raleigh's plan for their so-called "affordable ARC". I think it is the largest piece of cost-cutting to bring numbers down nonsense I have ever heard. If $13.5 billion is what it takes to build an intelligent capacity improvement and redundancy to NJ-NY transit, than so be it. So long as it is an intelligent project, which with some reservations, Gateway is- and ARC was not.

I respect and am friends with both Jim and Joe, but I disagree with them on this issue.


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## Nexis4Jersey (May 21, 2011)

I think Amtrak can take some of the pressure off the Tunnels by rerouting the long distance trains to Hoboken. Which has enough Capacity and services to handle Amtrak. The Kearny Connection / Waterfront Connection provides a connection to the NEC , so its not like Amtrak would be disconnected from the NEC. I think they should run a trial period over a couple months to see if this can be successful or not.... I mean from New York Penn to Hoboken is a big upgrade in terms of Station looks and appearance. Also maybe rerouting a few Daily Regional Trains between DC and NY to Hoboken wouldn't be such a bad idea , Hoboken is the main portal for most business professionals working in Lower Manhattan and Jersey City. As for the Gateway Project , i think the whole project is a good idea , however i don't think the Capacity Expansion will last 3 decades in this region.


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## jis (May 21, 2011)

Nexis4Jersey said:


> I think Amtrak can take some of the pressure off the Tunnels by rerouting the long distance trains to Hoboken. Which has enough Capacity and services to handle Amtrak. The Kearny Connection / Waterfront Connection provides a connection to the NEC , so its not like Amtrak would be disconnected from the NEC. I think they should run a trial period over a couple months to see if this can be successful or not.... I mean from New York Penn to Hoboken is a big upgrade in terms of Station looks and appearance. Also maybe rerouting a few Daily Regional Trains between DC and NY to Hoboken wouldn't be such a bad idea , Hoboken is the main portal for most business professionals working in Lower Manhattan and Jersey City. As for the Gateway Project , i think the whole project is a good idea , however i don't think the Capacity Expansion will last 3 decades in this region.


Removing 3.5 trains in an entire day to another station so as to verily kill the ridership on those trains is neither going to relieve pressure on Penn Station, nor will be an intelligent move IMHPO. But then again, what do I know? 

Amtrak's offered load on Penn Station and through the Hudson Tunnels is 3 to 4 trains per hour max each way, and more usually 2 per hour each way. There is no capacity problem at Penn Station except in the two morning and afternoon rush hours, and most LD trains do not come to Penn Station at those hours.

So IMHO this is yet another complicated solution looking for a problem rather than the other way round.


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## jis (May 21, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Well, coming out of the New Haven meeting, if the Lackawanna Coalition manages to kill and bury the Penn South part of the project then NJT will get close to zero benefit...
> ...


Likewise. Thanks.


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## jis (May 21, 2011)

daxomni said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Take any Acela from Metropark to Philly. You will average above 90mph. OTOH I think in the context of this thread you are confusing average speed with max speed, because when I said 90mph in the earlier post I was talking of max allowed speed.
> ...


Well, you made what appeared to be an oblique claim regarding speed and refuted it with facts. Now you are making a different claim and I pretty much agree with it to a point, though I also suspect that you have not done the analysis to definitively come to any conclusion about what the implications are of achieving various average speeds in terms of operational efficiency. But in any case, it was hard to understand what is it that you were trying to say in your previous message.

Even at whatever slow pokey (by world standards) speed that the Acelas run at they actually do well enough for the folks using them apparently. But operationally they require more equipment than is feasible with a shorter end to end time. So focusing on raising the speed from 82 mph (which the current Acela average between New York and Washington DC) progressively to something closer to 100 is useful. Purely from a customer perspective, even at 82mph, it is quite impossible for anyone to get even close to that by car, provided of course one is traveling from city to city. Apparently enough people do find it useful to actually use it, even at what some consider to be exorbitant fares.

The project that has been funded will cut some 3 mins from the net running time, and the full Gateway I and II will cut minimally another 5 mins. So about 8 mins cut from 2:47, an almost 5% reduction in running time (avg speed to 85mph), is not a particularly bad thing, specially since it starts getting close to a point where each Acela set can start making an extra turn thus immensely raising equipment utilization. Ideally one would want to get it down to 2:30 (90mph) to ensure the ability to do the extra turn.


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## Nexis4Jersey (May 21, 2011)

I mean't to say the Tunnels , but o well....how would it kill ridership?


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## Green Maned Lion (May 21, 2011)

Nexis4Jersey said:


> I mean't to say the Tunnels , but o well....how would it kill ridership?


I love Hoboken Terminal. Architecturally, it is one of New Jersey's most stunning edifices. But I'll be damned if I'm going to take a ferry or PATH train with all my luggage across the river! There is a reason that the New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad vastly dominated the New York-Chicago market compared to the Lackwanna, Erie, and Nickel Plate. And the fact that their train cars crossed the river for you is a major part of that.


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