# Don't like standing in lines at airport? Caltrain takes it a step



## Texan Eagle (Mar 10, 2013)

All the people around here complaining that they don't like to fly because it involves waiting in long security lines, presenting you the Caltrain menace-







This is a daily occurrence at San Francisco Caltrain station. First of all there should be no kindergarten lines for boarding any kind of trains, but definitely NOT for a commuter train. I can understand some Amtrak employees wanting to go on a power trip making a couple dozen passengers line up to board a long distance train, but here we are talking about daily commuters who take the train from work to home regularly and know the workings of it sometimes better than the employees (on an unrelated note, the conductor on the Caltrain I take daily often can't figure out looking outside what station is approaching, but I can, and have reminded him what to announce on the PA).

This is not my rant, this photo has been shared by multiple people on Twitter and they are all venting their ire on @caltrain_news (Caltrain's official Twitter PR account) for the completely unnecessary procedure.


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## Nathanael (Mar 10, 2013)

Either Caltrain management is actively trying to get Caltrain shut down, or they're simply incompetent. (This is far from the only piece of evidence.)

The majority of successful terrorist attacks on railways have been attacks on people waiting in the train station. This sort of line is actually an invitation to terrorists.


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## jis (Mar 10, 2013)

Isn't Caltrain run by our friend Jay's (or was it his son's) outfit?


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 10, 2013)

jis said:


> Isn't Caltrain run by our friend Jay's (or was it his son's) outfit?


True! Brian is, IINM, Head of Operations for Cal Train! (he did a Damn good job getting Austin's Red Line Up and Running after Veola was Run Off after Wasting Tens of Millions of Cap Metro Tax Dollars and 5 years trying Unsuccesfully to make it Operational!


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## battalion51 (Mar 10, 2013)

When I was in San Francisco a few years ago I went down to meet a couple of friends who were coming up from Stanford to meet me for dinner. It was probably around 8:00 or 9:00, well after Rush Hour. I was standing outside just enjoying the cool San Francisco air and a couple of employees came up to me and demanded that I get back inside the station. For being such a friendly city overall, the folks at CalTrain don't seem like making friends is on top of their priority list.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 11, 2013)

For those of us who don't use CalTrain, can someone please provide some context to the photo? Why are people lining up?

Is it required? [People frequently line up to board the Cascades in PDX and SEA but it's because they want "better" seats,

not because lining up is required.]


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## chakk (Mar 11, 2013)

fairviewroad said:


> For those of us who don't use CalTrain, can someone please provide some context to the photo? Why are people lining up?
> Is it required? [People frequently line up to board the Cascades in PDX and SEA but it's because they want "better" seats,
> 
> not because lining up is required.]


Having just ridden Caltrain from this station (4th and Townsend, San Francisco) a few weeks ago, the line is because the station staff are now opening just one door (of the two double doors) that lead from the station out to the train, and a Caltrain employee stands at the door to verify that each rider has purchased a ticket to board the train. This ticket might be a small piece of cardpaper from a vending machine if you purchased a single ride ticket. Or a Clipper Card (same size as a credit card) if you are using a fare-holding card for multiple rides. There may also be a version of the Clipper Card that you can now display on your smartphone screen.

As I had several pieces of luggage with me -- having arrived an hour earlier on the CZ and taken the Ambus from EMY to SFP to board the Caltrain commuter train to my final destination -- it was quite awkward for me to squeeze through the door with all my luggage and (perhaps?) my ticket between my teeth to display to the gateman.

Since I never saw (during my 40 minute ride) a conductor walk through the train checking tickets, I assume that this is Caltrain's new procedure to verify that everyone boarding a southbound train in San Francisco holds a valid ticket/fare card for the trip. And with the majority of passengers boarding at this station, the staff are playing the odds that they will confirm tickets for the maximum percentage of riders using the minimum percentage of staff with this boarding procedure. Still, there remains the possibility for large numbers of passengers to ride for free if (A) they are only traveling short distances, and (B) they are not boarding in San Francisco, and © the Caltrain crew are not doing one of their random checks through the train to ascertain that all passengers have valid tickets. There is a hefty fine of several hundred dollars for being caught riding without a valid ticket.

P.S. The line is long and single file because people in San Francisco are mostly polite and well-behaved. In some other cities and countries where I have encountered queues, it has been a madhouse of pushing and showing masses.


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## BCL (Mar 11, 2013)

I'll just say that I've never ever waited in an organized line ready to board Caltrain. I've also never boarded a train in San Francisco either. I think officially it's the "4th and King" station now, although Townsend is just the next block over (go fig).

And I've had my fare checked by fare inspectors many times, and always on board. It's usually via Clipper since there's a 25 cent discount. A few times I didn't have anything on the card, and a place to load value on the card was inconvenient. Caltrain stations rarely have any place to load value. The only Caltrain machine I've seen to load value to a Clipper card was at the San Jose Diridon station. The other places to load value are stations near BART (Millbrae), VTA (Mountain View), or MUNI (not sure where). The VTA machines are a pain because value can only be added in $5 increments.


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## Nathanael (Mar 11, 2013)

If they don't feel that they can check tickets on the train for passengers starting in San Francisco, they should either (a) buy some turnstiles which can check tickets automatically, or (b) have a large number of employees by a large number of open doors to trackside, starting long before the trains leave.

This is a solved problem. What Caltrain is doing is not one of the solutions.

The UK has numerous trains where the tickets are checked on board, but where passengers go through turnstiles at especially busy stations. Someone at Caltrain needs to pay some attention to international best practices.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 11, 2013)

I always enjoy people referring to any line as a "kindergarten line" or "kindergarten walk." Sometimes, some kind of organization is needed to prevent safety-related problems. Get over it.

As far as this Caltrain thing is concerned. It looks like they're trying to check tickets before boarding. This seems like poor planning. Either check tickets on board (hire some extra folks to do it, if you have to) or go to a gate system, which is pretty impractical for most commuter train situations. Metra used to have a gate system on its Electric Division with employees also checking tickets on board, a double whammy which pissed off passengers who eventually revolted and forced Metra to abandon the gate system which was only used on the Electric lines. Seems like Caltrain riders ought to put up a similar fuss.


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## BCL (Mar 12, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> If they don't feel that they can check tickets on the train for passengers starting in San Francisco, they should either (a) buy some turnstiles which can check tickets automatically, or (b) have a large number of employees by a large number of open doors to trackside, starting long before the trains leave.
> 
> This is a solved problem. What Caltrain is doing is not one of the solutions.
> 
> The UK has numerous trains where the tickets are checked on board, but where passengers go through turnstiles at especially busy stations. Someone at Caltrain needs to pay some attention to international best practices.


There's no practical way for machines to check tickets unless they start printing a bar code or other code on them. Right now the tickets are designed to be easily read by humans. Anything added to them would make them harder to read by shrinking the information. Then there's the issue of what happens if a ticket is rejected. I remember going to baseball games where the turnstiles automatically scan tickets, but there's a human at every few turnstiles to override it in case there is a reading issue.

MUNI actually does a similar system at the Metro stations. One can buy a MUNI-only ticket piggybacking on the Clipper Card system. Those allow one to enter the gate. If someone uses a regular paper transfer or a pass that isn't recognized by the system (like CityPASS or 1/3/7-day passes) there's a human station agent who allows that passenger to enter at the gate closest to the agent's booth.


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## Texan Eagle (Mar 12, 2013)

I commute by Caltrain daily, though not to or from San Francisco 4th and King. The other intermediate stations do not have any line forming nonsense nor do they check tickets before boarding. Caltrain is a proof of payment system and like all PoP systems they should be checking tickets *onboard*. I get my ticket checked by a conductor at least 3-4 times a week. This annoying queue-up-to-board procedure is just some Caltrain employees on a power trip and/or bored with nothing else to do. If they just want to ensure everyone has a ticket, they can very well do it onboard since Caltrain is not some hop skip and jump ride of few minutes. It takes more than an hour and there is more than sufficient time for the conductor to go around and check tickets multiple times if he so desires, but instead most conductors just hang out by the door chatting amongst themselves or with passengers.


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## chakk (Mar 12, 2013)

I am not sure that the line has any real effect on the train departures. At least, I have never heard of a train leaving the station with a string of passengers still waiting patiently in line to get through the gate throat. Nor have I heard of large numbers of trains being delayed in their departure time from the San Francisco station because the folks in line were still being "processed". And if departure delays were occurring frequently, then I assume the staff would simply open the door earlier to begin the boarding process.


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## sechs (Mar 12, 2013)

I think that this is much ado about nothing.

Since 4th and King is the only location with controlled platform access, it is the only place that they can do this. And it makes sense to do it before they leave to catch the inevitable ticketing mistakes while they can be fixed, rather than dumping folks with a fine at Bayshore. And, frankly, a neat line is better than the jockeying that occurs with the usual cattle call for the doors.

The number of people inconvenienced by the ticket check versus the number of confused tourists saved pain and embarrasment is surely quite small.


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## sechs (Mar 12, 2013)

Texan Eagle said:


> This annoying queue-up-to-board procedure is just some Caltrain employees on a power trip and/or bored with nothing else to do. If they just want to ensure everyone has a ticket, they can very well do it onboard since Caltrain is not some hop skip and jump ride of few minutes. It takes more than an hour and there is more than sufficient time for the conductor to go around and check tickets multiple times if he so desires, but instead most conductors just hang out by the door chatting amongst themselves or with passengers.


This is ridiculous. You can't expect the conductors to spend all of their time inspecting fares. Even if that were their purpose, other things inevitably come up which take their time.

Caltrain does, from time to time, have crews attempt to check the tickets of passengers boarding at out stations. This is very successful in discouraging theft of services, which is one of those things which inevitably comes up and takes conductors time.

If you have a complaint about the conductor's attitudes, I'd suggest submiting it to Caltrain. There's not a lot that people here can do about whatever theories you have on running the railroad.


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## BCL (Mar 13, 2013)

sechs said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > This annoying queue-up-to-board procedure is just some Caltrain employees on a power trip and/or bored with nothing else to do. If they just want to ensure everyone has a ticket, they can very well do it onboard since Caltrain is not some hop skip and jump ride of few minutes. It takes more than an hour and there is more than sufficient time for the conductor to go around and check tickets multiple times if he so desires, but instead most conductors just hang out by the door chatting amongst themselves or with passengers.
> ...


Caltrain conductors don't typically spend their time inspecting fares, although I believe they're authorized to do so. They divide the work into conductors and dedicated fare inspectors. I've seen conductors who basically stayed in one car, opened the doors, and walked outside to each station to give the clear signal to proceed.

I think previously everyone was considered a conductor or assistant conductor. That would have back at a time when you could still buy a ticket on board. I remember when they actually had ticket windows, and then machines. On the weekends many (all?) stations didn't have operating ticket windows and you had to buy a ticket on board. Then they installed the machines, but some of the stations (esp weekend or special event only stations) didn't have them.


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## jis (Mar 13, 2013)

I have never quite figured out why it takes someone with Conductor's training to examine tickets. This appears to be a peculiarly American phenomenon. In most other countries there seems to be two distinct job categories, one that of a Conductor or Guard, and the other of a Traveling Ticket Examiner. If it is a short train with few passengers the two roles may be played by the same person. But a long crowded train certainly ought not to take an army of Conductors or Assitant Conductors to run it. Similarly on short trains the role of Operator and Guard is shared by the same person too, specially where what would be considered Light Rail here operate on main line. In those cases TTEs board the train at random station do a sweep and then hop off to go and raid some other train.

So at least now I just chalk it upto a conveinent arrangement between Unions and Management (specially on taxpayer funded outfits) sort of like the arrangement that lasted for a while about Firemen on Diesel Engines, shoveling diesel oil into the engine .... wait!

OK now I am going to duck :help:


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## Blackwolf (Mar 13, 2013)

jis said:


> where what would be considered Light Rail here operate on main line. In those cases TTEs board the train at random station do a sweep and then hop off to go and raid some other train


It is always amusing to see this in action. Here in Sacramento, on Regional Transit (RT) light rail, when a fare inspector is sighted you see 80% of the passengers suddenly decide that is their stop. :help:


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## BCL (Mar 13, 2013)

jis said:


> I have never quite figured out why it takes someone with Conductor's training to examine tickets. This appears to be a peculiarly American phenomenon. In most other countries there seems to be two distinct job categories, one that of a Conductor or Guard, and the other of a Traveling Ticket Examiner. If it is a short train with few passengers the two roles may be played by the same person. But a long crowded train certainly ought not to take an army of Conductors or Assitant Conductors to run it. Similarly on short trains the role of Operator and Guard is shared by the same person too, specially where what would be considered Light Rail here operate on main line. In those cases TTEs board the train at random station do a sweep and then hop off to go and raid some other train.
> So at least now I just chalk it upto a conveinent arrangement between Unions and Management (specially on taxpayer funded outfits) sort of like the arrangement that lasted for a while about Firemen on Diesel Engines, shoveling diesel oil into the engine .... wait!
> 
> OK now I am going to duck :help:


I've actually noticed on the few times I've taken Amtrak LD trains, the conductors aren't the ones checking tickets. It's the attendants that are checking tickets. On my Capitol Corridor routes, it's two conductors typically, although one might be an assistant conductor. Quite a few routes I see two senior conductors.

Caltrain specifically has conductors and dedicated fare inspectors. I've seen some conductors who do nothing but stand in the vestibules, answer questions, call out stations on the PA, and tell the engineers when to leave the station. I'm even thinking at some times they don't even have any dedicated fare inspectors on board a specific train. You're just sort of left thinking it might happen. They sort of walk on, walk off, and have a semi-random schedule.

Now you mentioned light rail. I take VTA light rail sometimes, and it's odd. I almost always use a Capitol Corridor transfer now, and have come across some VTA fare inspectors. Usually they look at it and hand it back. I saw a senior guy telling a more junior inspector to hand it back to me as is. I had one fare inspector write her badge number and the date on the face to "cancel" it. Those inspectors were actually waiting at the same station where I boarded, so I'm thinking anyone who didn't buy a ticket or tag on with Clipper was an idiot. VTA is different with their operators. Their operator walks into a locked compartment with a door almost like that of an airline cockpit. You're not supposed to talk to the operator unless there's an emergency, and only then via an intercom. All tickets or passes are supposed to be obtained before boarding. They can do that because they only stop at stations, and every station has a ticket machine and a Clipper card reader.


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