# Changes to Empire Service Schedules Proposal



## JoshP (Dec 30, 2021)

Hello Everyone!

Question: Anyone know the history of Empire Service between Niagara Falls to NYC? Because I was reviewing the timetables and I noticed, what happened to #282. Since we have 280, 281, 283, 284, 48, 49, 63 and 64. This is my proposal that Empire Service should change to following:

NIAGARA FALLS - NEW YORK PENN
3:52am - 12:45pm #280
6:47am - 3:45pm #284
8:51am - 6:23pm #48
12:17pm - 9:55pm #64
3:15pm - 12:15am (NEW PROPOSED)
5:45pm - 10:25pm (Ends at ALB Station & NEW PROPOSED)
7:15pm - 12:15am (Ends at ALB Station & NEW PROPOSED)


NEW YORK PENN - NIAGARA FALLS
7:15am - 4:26pm #63
10:20am - 7:11pm #281
1:20pm - 10:11pm #283
3:40pm - 11:59pm #48
6:45pm - 3:30am (NEW PROPOSED)
7:45pm - 10:30pm (Ends at NFL Station & NEW PROPOSED)
9:15pm - 2:25am (Ends at NFL Station & NEW PROPOSED)


The reason of this that would allow upstate NY to have more train service and more choices and the new NFL-ALB service would allow passengers to travel upstate NY only and then transfer to the regular ALB-NYP service.

Thoughts?


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## bms (Dec 30, 2021)

I think that's a great idea. There's a perception in western New York that their taxes are mostly spent in areas near New York City - and that's not totally wrong. Western New York pays the same high income taxes, so they should get good train service too.


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## JoshP (Dec 30, 2021)

Buffalo is the only city that has largest population besides NYC and we pay more taxes than any city in upstate NY so, yeah we deserve better. Why should we pay for NYC? They have their onw tourist tax and they generate billions easy so they don't need us. Most important to see upstate NY gets improved so more people will come up here and spend tax dollars locally which means more jobs = more tax revenue locally.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Jan 3, 2022)

48 and 49 don't currently serve NFL. How would that work?


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## jis (Jan 3, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> 48 and 49 don't currently serve NFL. How would that work?


I am hoping he actually means Buffalo, and that too Depew if he really expects the LSL to be part of his NY State service.


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## neroden (Jan 7, 2022)

So, good ideas... a few points. 

First, pretty much any train heading east to Albany should continue either to NYC or to Boston, regardless of time of day, since there's always enough demand. 
Second, as Jis noted, the train to Chicago (#48/#49) have to go via Buffalo and not to Niagara Falls. 
Third, consider running a second pair of trains to Chicago, overnight between NYC and Syracuse (there's a good case for this).
Fourth, consider which trains should continue to Toronto.
Fifth, consider which trains should continue via Canada to Detroit.
Sixth, note that the commuter railroads don't want Amtrak arriving or departing NYP during peak commuter hours, so try to schedule around that.


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## west point (Jan 8, 2022)

neroden said:


> So, good ideas... a few points.
> 
> Sixth, note that the commuter railroads don't want Amtrak arriving or departing NYP during peak commuter hours, so try to schedule around that.



IMO MNRR could handle rush hour trains if there was a 2-track flyover for westside Amtrak trains at Spuyten Duyvil intersecting into the 2 inside main tracks north of the intersection. That way Amtrak will already be routed on express tracks going north. That will eliminate most interference between Amtrak and MNRR except for times either same direction RR is off schedule. More important the flyover will eliminate the SD swing bridge opening delays. It will also allow for 2 Main tracks from just outside NYP thru the intersection join the 4 or 5 track MNRR north of the intersection.

Next this flyover IMO is needed for any MNRR westside service to NYP. The intersection can have turnouts to the outside tracks for MNRR local service or MNRR can run express trains to/from north of this intersection on the inside tracks.


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## jis (Jan 8, 2022)

west point said:


> IMO MNRR could handle rush hour trains if there was a 2-track flyover for westside Amtrak trains at Spuyten Duyvil intersecting into the 2 inside main tracks north of the intersection. That way Amtrak will already be routed on express tracks going north. That will eliminate most interference between Amtrak and MNRR except for times either same direction RR is off schedule. More important the flyover will eliminate the SD swing bridge opening delays. It will also allow for 2 Main tracks from just outside NYP thru the intersection join the 4 or 5 track MNRR north of the intersection.
> 
> Next this flyover IMO is needed for any MNRR westside service to NYP. The intersection can have turnouts to the outside tracks for MNRR local service or MNRR can run express trains to/from north of this intersection on the inside tracks.


As I have mentioned before, this is not going to happen anytime soon. It is unnecessary for a 2tph MNRR service to Penn Station and whatever Amtrak service there is (about 1tph each way). There is unlikely to be any capacity available for any more MNRR trains to Penn Station from the Hudson Line in the foreseeable future. LD trains will continue to be banned from Penn Station during commuter rush hours. It has nothing to do with Sputen Duyvil.


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## west point (Jan 8, 2022)

jis said:


> . There is unlikely to be any capacity available for any more MNRR trains to Penn Station from the Hudson Line in the foreseeable future. LD trains will continue to be banned from Penn Station during commuter rush hours. It has nothing to do with Sputen Duyvil.



That is correct. however, what if MNRR wants to start west side access within 3 years? It has to do with NYP having only west side access tracks 5-9. Now if Penn south is ever built that does change the metric.


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## jis (Jan 8, 2022)

west point said:


> That is correct. however, what if MNRR wants to start west side access within 3 years? It has to do with NYP having only west side access tracks 5-9. Now if Penn south is ever built that does change the metric.


Actually it does not. If you read the plans and projected traffic, MTA is supposed to stay within its own current ownership of slots. NYPS South is entirely for Amtrak and NJT growth, not for the use of MTA. So unless that agreement changes no metrics change. Anyway, it is quite likely that the little extension to the ladder track that allows Empire Connection trains to access the higher number tracks is already in place or could be installed irrespective of what happens to the Gateway Tunnels. It does not depend on the Gateway Tunnel access tracks. As a matter of fact it is actually quite unlikely that anyone will start the MNRR Hudson Service to Penn Station until those trains can get to the higher number tracks.


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