# School Me: Passenger Rail in Britain



## Ryan (Dec 9, 2015)

The family and I (wife, kids that will be ages 4 and 13) are heading to Scotland next August to visit some friends and see some of the places the wife spent her childhood (her Dad was stationed at Holy Loch in her youth).

Looking at award availability on United, it's looking like it'll be much, much easier to fly over to LHR and then head north, plus I'd love to do some train riding while we are there.

In brief looking online, I've found a dizzying array of information, but I still don't "get it". Can those of you that have travelled (or live) there explain it to me? Is it feasible to attempt to use the train to complete the last leg of our trip from LHR to Glasgow or Edinburgh. Are the rail passes I'm seeing worthwhile, and can they really be used to just jump on a train at a moment's notice?


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 9, 2015)

Great trip Ryan! 

Can't help you with details since this very trip is on my bucket list, but jis just returned from doing this over the holidays, and our AU friend Eddie of Nottingham lives in the Old Country, so they should be able to provide you with up to date info!


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## jebr (Dec 9, 2015)

Seat61.com has a lot of good resources, or so it seems anyways. When I've dreamed of going across the pond, that's what I've looked at for info.

Edit: here's a specific page about it. There's even a sleeper train!

http://seat61.com/london-to-edinburgh-by-train.htm#.VmgttTBME0M


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## caravanman (Dec 9, 2015)

Hi,

I don't use passes here, so have little advice about them. Some are only available to non nationals, if bought before arrival in UK.

Most trains allow unreserved passengers to board, so passes should be valid instantly, but you may have to stand in that case.

London to Edinburgh by train takes under 5 hours, plus the time to get from the airport to either Euston or Kings Cross stations for Scotland. (Direct from Heathrow via Underground).

Internet cheap train tickets are only sold about 2-3 months in advance, so better to look nearer the time of your trip.

As an experiment, I looked up prices on East Midland Trains (My local service), and for London to Edinburgh Adult fares are shown as low as £20 one way. This is for a Tuesday in February around 10am. Just one offer at this price, several at £41-£55.

If you can book a month or two in advance, online, and collect tickets from the machines at stations, that is far and away the cheapest option.

Some train times will be cheaper than others, and these tickets are only valid on that exact train. Prices do mostly include seat reservations if bought online.

Although I live here, I have covered many more train miles in the USA than here in UK.

One other option is the Caledonian Sleeper, from Euston to Edinburgh... This can be booked up to 12 months ahead, and has it's own website: https://www.sleeper.scot/ Sleeper fares are around £95 per person.

If I can be of more help, please feel free to ask on here or message me.

Cheers,

Ed.


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## cirdan (Dec 9, 2015)

Regular train fares in Britain are realtively steep. Much more costly than most of Amtrak if you look at it on a cost per mile basis.

But fortunately there are often special offers to be had so its worth hunting these down on websites such as nationalrail.

I can't say much about passes as I don't use thes emuch myself.

On the whole rail travel in Briatin is fast and comfortable. If you can afford it, do go for first class. It is much more civilized and on most longer trips there is some complementary food and beverages.

Generally seat reservations are not required and tickets are generally not restricted to one particular train, so you can change plans. But do bear in ind that some cheap tickets are restricted to certain times of day.

On the whole, retun trips (round trips as you might say in the US) are cheaper than single legs. Quite often the difference is only one pound.

The best and cheapest way from Heathrow into London is by the Piccadilly Line. This is far slower than the rival Haethrow Express but also far cheaper and more fun to ride on. Large parts of it are through typical Edwardian and Victorian London suburbs. The Piccadilly line runs parallel to the District line for quite a stretch and as the District is the slow train here and the Piccadilly teh express, you get the sensation of one Underground train overtaking another.

Getting from London to Edinburgh or Glasgow is not a problem. There are two main lines going to the north. The East Coast line starts from Kings Cross and the West Coast line from Euston. Both of these stations are easily reachable by tube, bus (or even walking - many tourists underestimate the value of walking in London) from most parts of London. On both lines the service is frequent. On the West Coast line you are likely to get a Pendolino (tilting) train. mayn people like these but personally I'm not so much of a fan as they aren't as spacious as the older ones and you can't always get a good window view. The East Coat line has older cars pulled and pushed by locomotives.

Travel within Scotland is also recommendable by train. the Highlands are especially beautiful and scenic. The trains there are not as fast and not as frequent as on the main lines, and mostly second class only, but most lines do get several trains a day. But do check schedules in advance. One of may favourites is the Mallaig line. This actually gets a service directly from London Euston in the form of one of the branches of the Caledonian Sleeper. For the parts that traisn don't go there are buses/coaches. Many of these connect to train services.


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## trainviews (Dec 9, 2015)

Walk up tickets are horrendously expensive, but tickets bought on the internet in advance can be real bargains, if you are able to plan which departure to take. This summer a short hop from Burnley to Leeds was significantly more than Leeds-London simply because I was able to plan the latter in advance.

So if you want flexibility the rail pass is probably the better option. If you are able to plan your schedule, advance buys might be cheaper.

And in Scotland, yes, the Jacobite/Mallaig line is a must, especially with kids. Imagine them coming home to tell their friends that they have been riding the Hogwarth Express!


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## DetroitTed (Dec 9, 2015)

I have traveled significant amounts of train trips over the last decade or so in England and briefly Scotland. I highly recommend it if you're a flexible low stress traveller. I have used several of the iterations of the Britrail pass and recommend it if you're doing several days ( I would recommend 4 or more) of train travel. I also have gotten very cheap fares on the internet by buying at the 90 days out point. If you're flying into LHR you can take the tube into London or the Heathrow Express. Haven't taken the tube yet but I may on my next trip in January. One comment -- although one person commented that seat reservations are not required ( which they're not), I would highly recommend them for any trip over an hour or so ( all the trips to Scotland will be well over that). It can be a real hassle to find a non-reserved seat particularly in 1st class on the East Coast trains particularly if you're schlepping luggage. Have a great trip!


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## jis (Dec 9, 2015)

Ryan said:


> The family and I (wife, kids that will be ages 4 and 13) are heading to Scotland next August to visit some friends and see some of the places the wife spent her childhood (her Dad was stationed at Holy Loch in her youth).
> 
> Looking at award availability on United, it's looking like it'll be much, much easier to fly over to LHR and then head north, plus I'd love to do some train riding while we are there.
> 
> In brief looking online, I've found a dizzying array of information, but I still don't "get it". Can those of you that have travelled (or live) there explain it to me? Is it feasible to attempt to use the train to complete the last leg of our trip from LHR to Glasgow or Edinburgh. Are the rail passes I'm seeing worthwhile, and can they really be used to just jump on a train at a moment's notice?


Ryna, I can give you lots of info, but will take a few days until I am done with the Standards meeting that I am attending this week. It leaves very little free time.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 9, 2015)

The tickets will be cheapest a few months before your trip. After you've planned the routing you want find out when those tickets will go on sale and put those dates in your digital calendar. Then buy on or as close to the initial release date as possible. Tickets sold far in advance through third party booking services may not be honored and if you wait until close to departure it's not uncommon for tickets to get rather expensive or for trains to sell out of reserved seats entirely. At which point you may end up paying top dollar just to stand in a vestibule. Don't forget to open a window and stick your head out at 150MPH. Only place on Earth I've seen such a thing.


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## jamesontheroad (Jan 2, 2016)

Ryan said:


> Looking at award availability on United, it's looking like it'll be much, much easier to fly over to LHR and then head north, plus I'd love to do some train riding while we are there.


What is your departure airport in the USA? Traveling with kids, I would suggest it would in fact be easier to fly direct to Edinburgh (EDI) or Glasgow (EDI). All but a few 'dayliner' flights travel eastbound from the USA to UK overnight, so you will arrive at LHR early AM with both jet lag and not much sleep under your belt. It might not be the happiest experience to lug your baggage and children onto the Tube and then onto a train at King's Cross or Euston for a four to five hour ride to Glasgow or Edinburgh.

Just to give you an idea, including all the summer-only services, Edinburgh has direct flights from/to Chicago ORD (United), Newark EWR (United), New York JFK (American, Delta) and Toronto YYZ (Air Canada Rouge). Glasgow has direct flights from/to Las Vegas (Virgin Atlantic), Orlando MCO (Virgin Atlantic), Newark EWR (United), Philadelphia PHL (American), Reyjkavik KEF (Icelandair) and Toronto YYZ (Air Canada Rouge, Air Transat, WestJet).

These will almost always be more expensive that flights to/from LHR, but with kids and bags and jet lag I'd suggest they're worth the premium - at least on the outbound. You could buy an open-jaw ticket into EDI or GLA and then fly home from LHR, allowing you to enjoy the southbound train trip to London towards the end of your holiday.


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## jamesontheroad (Jan 2, 2016)

Ryan said:


> In brief looking online, I've found a dizzying array of information, but I still don't "get it". Can those of you that have travelled (or live) there explain it to me? Is it feasible to attempt to use the train to complete the last leg of our trip from LHR to Glasgow or Edinburgh. Are the rail passes I'm seeing worthwhile, and can they really be used to just jump on a train at a moment's notice?


Others have provided lots of info above, but here are my two cents. Maybe of use.

Rail passes are good value if you use them a lot. As per my flight advice above, with kids you may appreciate the flexibility of being able to use any train. If you are on a tight budget and are prepared to commit to precise trains then I would strongly suggest you skip the passes and take the time to hunt for and commit to cheap departure-specific tickets.

Broadly speaking, there are three tiers of train tickets.


*Anytime* are the most expensive, and can be used "any time" (including the expensive morning rush hour, usually up until 09:30).
*Off Peak* are the next tier, and can be used (generally) on any train after 09:30. There are some restrictions on evening rush hour trains, but not as many as in the morning. Anytime and Off Peak are sold as Single (one way), Return (return within one month) or Day Return (same day return). Optional seat reservations are available but not mandatory.
*Advance *are the cheapest but most restricted tickets. You can buy these from approx 12 weeks before your date of travel until approx 18:00 the day before (check this page to discover the "booking horizon" for each operator). These tickets come with reservations, and are only valid on the specified train. They are the most punitive to refund or change, usually with a £10 plus fare difference administration charge. Advance tickets are sold in limited quantities, so like Amtrak fares, when the bucket is empty the next fare bucket is available. As a result the cheapest First Class Advance fare can be cheaper than the cheapest currently available Standard Class Advance.
CaravanMan and I both use the line from Nottingham and Leicester into London St. Pancras. To give you an example of the dramatic difference in fares (often for the very same trains), the cheapest *Advance* single from Leicester to London is £14.50. A Super Off Peak Single is £58.50, and an Anytime Single is £79.50.

Advance tickets are only sold as singles (one-way). Off Peak and Anytime returns are often only £1 or £2 more than singles.

Your 4 year old travels free and your 13 year old travels on a Child fare, which is usually half the adult fare.

With regards to your travels, Scotland has an excellent rail network. Aside from the cross-border services to England operated by Virgin Trains, First Transpennine and Caledonian Sleeper, all trains are operated by Scotrail. Aside from the suburban network around Glasgow and a few of the lines around Edinburgh, everything is diesel, and most trains are two or three carriage multiple units. The line from Glasgow to Oban or Fort William Mallaig is breath taking (but you'll definitely need seat reservations in August).

There are reliable connections with ferries throughout the Clyde Estuary and Hebrides. Oban and Mallaig are your primary ports for ferries to the islands off the west coast. See Scotrail and Caledonian Macbrayne for more info. CityLink and Megabus run most coaches (long distance buses).


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## KC Ghost Rider (Jan 26, 2016)

Ryan said:


> The family and I (wife, kids that will be ages 4 and 13) are heading to Scotland next August to visit some friends and see some of the places the wife spent her childhood (her Dad was stationed at Holy Loch in her youth).
> 
> Looking at award availability on United, it's looking like it'll be much, much easier to fly over to LHR and then head north, plus I'd love to do some train riding while we are there.
> 
> In brief looking online, I've found a dizzying array of information, but I still don't "get it". Can those of you that have travelled (or live) there explain it to me? Is it feasible to attempt to use the train to complete the last leg of our trip from LHR to Glasgow or Edinburgh. Are the rail passes I'm seeing worthwhile, and can they really be used to just jump on a train at a moment's notice?


Hi Ryan,

I am retired from the US Navy and I was stationed at the Holy Loch and I have family in Dunoon. I visit regularly. Normally, I take the RMS Queen Mary 2 across the pond, but my information will be useful.

First, you can fly directly into Glasgow Airport and just take a taxi to the Paisley station. From there you take the local train to Gourock and catch the ferry to Dunoon. However, you question was from Healthrow. There are many options for this, including buses (coaches). The is the Healthrow Express to Paddington Station then you have to take the Underground to Euston Station. It is a bit of an adventure but doable. From Euston Station, Glasgow Center is just over 4 hours away and once there you will want the Glasgow to Gourock local. Then the ferry to Dunoon. You will want to stay on the West coast mainline if Dunoon is your destination. No problem seeing Edinburgh from Dunoon. You just reverse the process until Glasgow. Take the train to Edinburgh.

Second, those rail passes save money. You have a family, so there is some discounts there. You don't need first class as it is only on mainline trains. Standard is cheaper and universal. With the passes, you don't need to worry about peak and off-peak times. The passes are accepted anytime. Remember anyone under 25 year old is considered an youth and that has a discount. As far as validating the passes, you just do that at the station before you first trip. You speak to the agent and show the passports. You then can ask about reserving a seat. Reservations are hit and miss and sometimes they want to charge a small fee for the service. You will want to reserve some seats for the mainline trips. The local trains are just hop-on and go.

Finally, there is this from Rick Steves.


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