# Denver's Ski Train Returns in 2017 (Winter Park)!



## eblkheart (Aug 24, 2016)

I had a feeling this was going to happen. Snip of the article:



> After a 7 year hiatus, the ski train will operate from Denver Union Station to a new platform at Winter Park Ski Resort during ski season.
> 
> The ski train previously ran from 1940 to 2009. It was discontinued in 2009 when it became too costly for a private operator to run.
> 
> Amtrak is partnering with Winter Park to bring the train back.


And



> Winter Park is expected to announce details about train times and tickets on Thursday morning.


There we go  Maybe they'll have it ready by the time the meet up happens in Oct.

Source: http://www.9news.com/news/local/winter-park-ski-train-returns/307205086


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## eblkheart (Aug 24, 2016)

Another Update: Amtrak has announced that the train will start January 2017 until March 2017. The train is called the Amtrak Winter Park Express.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Aug 24, 2016)

REDIRECTED

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/68805-denvers-ski-train-returns/

Can't delete topic :help:

I suck

Shoulda looked before posting . . . *facepalm*


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## railiner (Aug 25, 2016)

Hmmm.....interesting....they mention a "new platform" was being constructed....if so, I wonder if this will be the end of the Zephyr stopping at Fraser to serve Winter Park?

It would be more convenient to actually get off at the ski resort....


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## OlympianHiawatha (Aug 25, 2016)

Any idea of the consist? I'm guessing a few Superliner Coaches and either a SSL or Heartland Flyer-type Cafe Coach. I know Horizons are out because they don't like cold and snow and I've seen Amfleet vestibules fill up with snow as well.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 25, 2016)




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## jis (Aug 25, 2016)

The significantly better public transit connectivity to Denver Union Station should significantly increase the appeal of this service.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 25, 2016)

It's a shame Iowa Pacific didn't get this... I would pay dearly to ride in the IP full domes and get true first class service and food ala the Hoosier State.

It's still a huge positive though!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 25, 2016)

Amtrak will be happy to provide dome car, and 1st class service. If your will to pay for it. So if Amtrak has teamed up with a ski resort they might be contracted to provide dome car, and 1st class service. Never say Never,


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 25, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Amtrak will be happy to provide dome car, and 1st class service. If your will to pay for it. So if Amtrak has teamed up with a ski resort they might be contracted to provide dome car, and 1st class service. Never say Never,


Despite myself and tax payers paying dearly, I've yet to see Amtrak be capable of delivering consistent first class service. They do have a full dome though so that part could happen!


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## eblkheart (Aug 25, 2016)

Update:



> Winter Park Express trains will run roundtrip from Denver Union Station to the slopes of Winter Park on Saturdays and Sundays from January 7 through March 26, 2017.
> 
> Additional round trips are schedule for Martin Luther King Day and Presidents Day.





> The train, which can hold over 500 passengers, will depart from Union Station at 7 a.m. and arrive at the resort at about 9 a.m.
> 
> Trains will depart from the resort at 4:30 p.m. and return to Denver at 6:40 p.m.
> 
> ...








So there we have it.

Source: http://www.9news.com/sports/ski/winter-park-ski-train-ticket-details-announced/308235371

(hey this is my 100th post  )


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## PaulM (Aug 25, 2016)

jis said:


> The significantly better public transit connectivity to Denver Union Station should significantly increase the appeal of this service.


Wasn't one of the deal killers the inability to purchase a one way ticket or a round trip ticket returning on a different day? What kind of marketing department would think that one up?


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## Sactobob (Aug 25, 2016)

PaulM said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The significantly better public transit connectivity to Denver Union Station should significantly increase the appeal of this service.
> ...


If you check the Winter Park Resort web site, you will see that one-way tickets are available.


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## west point (Aug 25, 2016)

Over 500 passengers means probably 7 SL coaches, a café car, a lounge car, and probably 2 P-42s . Being after Jan 1st that should make equipment available for this train. It is a shame that equipment would not be available during the Thanksgiving, Christmas. and New Year's seasons. Maybe if Amtrak can ever get surge equipment ? ? ?


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 25, 2016)

PaulM said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The significantly better public transit connectivity to Denver Union Station should significantly increase the appeal of this service.
> ...


The original intent of the ski train was to allow day trips from Denver to the municipally-owned ski slopes. Overnight passengers could take other trains. it looks like one-way, overnight and even week-long trips are now possible.


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## railiner (Aug 25, 2016)

PaulM said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The significantly better public transit connectivity to Denver Union Station should significantly increase the appeal of this service.
> ...


The original Ski Train was intended to only serve Denver day skier's, not those planning a longer stay. The original Ski Train was sponsored by the youth oriented Eskimo Ski Club.

As a matter of fact, the Winter Park area (owned by the Denver Parks Department), for a long time didn't even have much to offer in the way of lodging.

That is no longer the case.

In any event, the CZ should be able to serve those staying longer...


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## domefoamer (Aug 25, 2016)

This all sounds like great and welcome news, but I can't help but have some qualms, mostly logistical.

This won't be the old Ski Train, steam-heated with reversible benches, or the later streamliner, but modern Superliners. Riders won't arrive ready to skI. Imagine dozens of pairs of ski boots clunking up and down that spiral stairway. Obviousy neither skis or boots will be allowed upstairs. I'm curious how skis will be handled on the train. A baggage car? Then there's a delay while skiers are matched up with their skis.

Parking looks scarce around the Station, but there are indoor paid lots that ought to be available in off-peak morning hours. We're at the mercy of what those lots want to charge by the day.

The price may better of the budget of the out-of-town visitor than the Denver day skier. It would be interesting to watch skiers packed for a week's vacation wedging onto one of the new DIA commuter trains. After that experience, they'll probably take a cab or shuttle ride back.

I hope this succeeds, and I think it might. There's so much prosperity around Denver these days that a $200 ski day doesn't faze them, 500 a day, anyway. I'm for anything that gives more folks access to he Rockies by rail, but this will be a different experience. How I wish that Iowa Pacific was doing it instead!


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 25, 2016)

domefoamer said:


> This all sounds like great and welcome news, but I can't help but have some qualms, mostly logistical.
> 
> This won't be the old Ski Train, steam-heated with reversible benches, or the later streamliner, but modern Superliners. Riders won't arrive ready to skI. Imagine dozens of pairs of ski boots clunking up and down that spiral stairway. Obviousy neither skis or boots will be allowed upstairs. I'm curious how skis will be handled on the train. A baggage car? Then there's a delay while skiers are matched up with their skis.
> 
> ...


Wow, we actually get back a train that went away and there are complaints that the train isn't using crappy old equipment.


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 25, 2016)

eblkheart said:


> Update:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(Congratulations on your 100th post. And it's a goodie, too!)

This great news for its own sake, but also, the ski train will surely help the Amtrak "brand". We can expect to see favorable coverage of an appealing and photogenic service to appear in Colorado media and elsewhere.

Wonder how Amtrak will report the results? Maybe 20,000 riders, not to be sneezed at. So a new line in the Monthly Report? Or just a sweet little blip in the _Zephyr's_ numbers? It's all good.

Would love to learn the back story. Could this possibly be the result of an initiative from Amtrak? Or does all credit for the re-start of service go to the resort?


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## domefoamer (Aug 25, 2016)

There is no crappy old equipment, Mike, just poorly maintained equipment that's the problem. The older single-level cars would seem to be better suited to handle bundled-up, ski-booted riders, plus picnic coolers and gear. The old Union Station neighborhood, before it became LoDo, was more accommodating to parking and dropoffs. That's how a local sees who has ridden most generations of Ski Train equipment, plus the CZ and the RGZ.


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## AmtrakLKL (Aug 25, 2016)

railiner said:


> Hmmm.....interesting....they mention a "new platform" was being constructed....if so, I wonder if this will be the end of the Zephyr stopping at Fraser to serve Winter Park?
> 
> It would be more convenient to actually get off at the ski resort....


The new platform is ADA compliant and will be served by the Winter Park Express only. The Zephyr will continue to call at Fraser and will not stop at the new Winter Park platform.



OlympianHiawatha said:


> Any idea of the consist? I'm guessing a few Superliner Coaches and either a SSL or Heartland Flyer-type Cafe Coach. I know Horizons are out because they don't like cold and snow and I've seen Amfleet vestibules fill up with snow as well.


Four Superliner Coaches and four Superliner Baggage Coaches. No food service - BYOF and BYONAD. (Bring Your Own Non-Alcoholic Drinks)


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## Sactobob (Aug 26, 2016)

domefoamer said:


> This all sounds like great and welcome news, but I can't help but have some qualms, mostly logistical.
> 
> This won't be the old Ski Train, steam-heated with reversible benches, or the later streamliner, but modern Superliners. Riders won't arrive ready to skI. Imagine dozens of pairs of ski boots clunking up and down that spiral stairway. Obviousy neither skis or boots will be allowed upstairs. I'm curious how skis will be handled on the train. A baggage car? Then there's a delay while skiers are matched up with their skis.
> 
> When they did the trial run last January, Coach-Baggage cars were used for the skis, and apparently worked well, so that will the solution next time.


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## battalion51 (Aug 26, 2016)

There's 40 or so Baggage Coaches, and I think the Portland side of the Builder is the only train that truly requires a Baggage Coach on a daily basis. Leaves plenty of surplus options available thanks to the delivery of the Viewliner Bag Cars.


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## eblkheart (Aug 26, 2016)

I will agree the parking at Union Station isn't good. That's one thing that concerned me when they announced the renovations at the station. As a local that takes the CZ at least a couple times a year, I'm thankful I can be at least dropped off or take the Light Rail.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 26, 2016)

Trust me you don't want an all IP equipment train. From someone who works with their equipment regularly it isn't good. While it looks good from the outside (most times) inside is a totally different ball game. And I'm always cursing those cars. The domes may be nice for passengers. But for the things you don't notice the cars aren't in the best of shape.


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## Anderson (Aug 26, 2016)

It seems they solved a lot of the "glitches" with the old(er) trains with this iteration. One thing that jumps out is that, while I don't know what the _exact_ dates are, this lines up with Amtrak's equipment pullback from last winter. Simply whacking a coach off the _Zephyr _or _Starlight _would go a _long_ way towards covering this train.

As to the _Zephyr_ covering longer-term pax, the issue there is more that Amtrak is frequently stuck doing capacity controls on this part of the route (as well as the Reno run). Note that the CZ PIP was run _after_ the Ski Train was cut, and it noted this as a significant issue. Amtrak _needs_ this train to bleed off demand.


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## afigg (Aug 26, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> Four Superliner Coaches and four Superliner Baggage Coaches. No food service - BYOF and BYONAD. (Bring Your Own Non-Alcoholic Drinks)


This is going to be a weekend only service. Will the Superliner cars be stored in Denver during the week? If so, it won't be an efficient use of equipment with a lot of down time for the Superliners. Which affects the cost recovery math behind the service. Same goes for the crew and OBS as well. The locomotive(s) for the ski train can serve as backup locos for the CZ, so they can do double-duty so to speak.

As Jishnu noted, the vastly expanded local transit system connecting to Denver Union Station thanks to RTD Fastracks since the Ski Train was last operated should boost ridership. And since this is an Amtrak train, presumably it will boost system ridership stats, whether the monthly reports add it to the state supported train list or put the passenger & revenue numbers into the special train category.


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## jis (Aug 26, 2016)

afigg, I suspect we will see a longer CZ on Thursdays to Denver and Mondays out of Denver to rotate at least some of the cars used in and out of Denver for use elsewhere. I doubt they will sit in Denver for an entire week doing nothing.


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## neroden (Aug 26, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm.....interesting....they mention a "new platform" was being constructed....if so, I wonder if this will be the end of the Zephyr stopping at Fraser to serve Winter Park?
> ...


I have to wonder how long that will last. The Zephyr stopped at Fraser for Winter Park customers because there was no acceptable platform at Winter Park. It seems goofy to go past a perfectly good platform without stopping.

I'm sort of expecting the Zephyr to start stopping at Winter Park after a while. If you don't count the baggage car or the transdorm, it's the same length as the Ski Train, so it should fit.

The Ski Train is running on practically the same schedule as the Zephyr so this would only be used by people coming from beyond Denver.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Aug 26, 2016)

Man. I really wish they still had the Ski Train F40's.


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## jis (Aug 26, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Man. I really wish they still had the Ski Train F40's.


I am all for that! I loved the F40s, the little engine that saved Amtrak and many other passenger services in the US.


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## crescent-zephyr (Aug 26, 2016)

Seaboard92 said:


> Trust me you don't want an all IP equipment train. From someone who works with their equipment regularly it isn't good. While it looks good from the outside (most times) inside is a totally different ball game. And I'm always cursing those cars. The domes may be nice for passengers. But for the things you don't notice the cars aren't in the best of shape.


So you volunteered on some excursions and now you're an expert on all of the IP equipment?


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 26, 2016)

I've worked as in paid staff. And I can tell you Scenic View, Prairie View, and Sky View. I've also worked on several other cars that I can't recall the name but I can tell you each has problems. My personal favorite the Jackson Square (we have other names for it my bosses and me) but it had bad shocks, bad carpeting, bad hvac, bad plumbing, bad seats, cracked Windows, bad seals in the Windows, bad lighting, among many other problems. Yet we still ran with it. Supposedly they made improvements. But I don't believe you can fix the car.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Aug 26, 2016)

jis said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > Man. I really wish they still had the Ski Train F40's.
> ...


I loved listening to those Bad Boys in station as they had to keep running high RPM to turn HEP. Sounded great!


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## fairviewroad (Aug 26, 2016)

jis said:


> The significantly better public transit connectivity to Denver Union Station should significantly increase the appeal of this service.


Quite true, but watch those schedules. Light rail service is infrequent at that hour on weekend mornings. In some cases you'd have to plan to arrive at Union Station more than an hour ahead of time, or else risk a tight (10 minutes or less) connection.



neroden said:


> I have to wonder how long that will last. The Zephyr stopped at Fraser for Winter Park customers because there was no acceptable platform at Winter Park. It seems goofy to go past a perfectly good platform without stopping.


Perhaps, but LD trains pass lots of "local" stations without stopping. I realize this is different than when the Zephyr passes Capitol Corridor stations, obviously. But if Amtrak added Winter Park as a stop on the Zephyr, you'd have people see two options when they went online to book the ski train. Assuming they were priced similarly, you'd have some of those people booking those short hops on the Zephyr. By keeping the stops separate, you'd have far fewer day-trippers cannibalizing the long-haul revenue.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 26, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Man. I really wish they still had the Ski Train F40's.


Those F40's are in Canada pulling the Agawa Canyon tourist trains out of Sault St. Marie, Ont. on the CN (former Algoma Central). As a matter of fact, most of the Canyon train's cars are former Ski-Train coaches.


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## railiner (Aug 27, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The significantly better public transit connectivity to Denver Union Station should significantly increase the appeal of this service.
> ...


They could solve that simply by not allowing booking the CZ only between Denver and Winter Park on the days the Ski Train operates, and on other days only allow it after a certain date when it becomes apparent the space would not be needed by longer haul passenger's...


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## railiner (Aug 27, 2016)

MikefromCrete said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > Man. I really wish they still had the Ski Train F40's.
> ...


Are those the Hawker-Siddeley former 'Tempo' cars?

Back 'home' on the CN....


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## fairviewroad (Aug 27, 2016)

railiner said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


You're right, there are a lot of ways to manage that, if they wished. Some of it also depends on what the local communities want, too.


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## chakk (Aug 27, 2016)

But what if someone actually wants to go from denver to fraser? Will the ski train stop at fraser platform to let them off before the consist contunues west to Tabernash to turn on the wye and wait there for the return trip?

And same issue for someone wanting to travel from fraser to denver on ski train days. Will the ski train pick them up at Fraser before continuing east to winter park to load skiers?


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 28, 2016)

chakk said:


> But what if someone actually wants to go from denver to fraser? Will the ski train stop at fraser platform to let them off before the consist contunues west to Tabernash to turn on the wye and wait there for the return trip?
> 
> And same issue for someone wanting to travel from fraser to denver on ski train days. Will the ski train pick them up at Fraser before continuing east to winter park to load skiers?


 No. The ski train is an excursion. It only serves the end points. Would you expect it to drop you off at some other place along the line? It's not the Alaska Railroad's Hurricane Turn or some VIA train serving wilderness areas without road access.


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## como (Aug 28, 2016)

Domefoamer: I understand your comment about the equipment of the old ski train, the old neighborhood around Union Station and the old model for access to Winter Park. The idea was to make a local ski are more accessible to people in Denver and surrounding areas. I remember that the ski train had a stop near Rocky Flats that served people in Boulder. This goes back to the day when lift tickets were cheap and Winter Park, Lake Eldora, and Hidden Valley were places that targeted families living in the Denver Metro Area.


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## railiner (Aug 28, 2016)

chakk said:


> But what if someone actually wants to go from denver to fraser? Will the ski train stop at fraser platform to let them off before the consist contunues west to Tabernash to turn on the wye and wait there for the return trip?
> 
> And same issue for someone wanting to travel from fraser to denver on ski train days. Will the ski train pick them up at Fraser before continuing east to winter park to load skiers?


The miniscule amount of passengers that actually would want to go to Fraser, would not be worth the cost of maintaining that station, if the CZ could stop at Winter Park, instead. perhaps the shuttles serving the area could accommodate them. And don't forget that the CZ would still be stopping at Granby, just a few miles beyond....


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## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 30, 2016)

Great news! Now we just need an enterprising person to create a service to whisk off one's baggage to one's lodgings while one goes direct to the slopes...

(spent many weeks over the years at Winter Park, all this is making me look forward to winter)


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## eblkheart (Sep 1, 2016)

"A Stong Start"



> Amtrak sold 3,300 tickets in the first day of sales for the new Winter Park Express train that will connect Denver and Winter Park ski area Jan. 7 through March 26.
> 
> That’s about one pair of tickets every minute and almost a quarter of all the tickets available for the weekend train service.
> 
> When Amtrak offered a trial run of the ski train to Winter Park ski area in March 2015, priced at $75 round trip, about 900 tickets for those two days of train service were gone in a matter of hours.


http://www.denverpost.com/2016/08/31/ski-train-3300-tickets-sold/


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## DSS&A (Dec 13, 2016)

*MODERATOR NOTE: this post and the following post were started as a new thread on the same topic as a previous thread. The threads have been merged.*

Hi,
The Winter Park Ski Train starts running on January 7, 2017. Here's a link to an article in Forbes about the renewed ski train service.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryolmsted/2016/10/08/colorados-famed-ski-train-is-back-for-winter-vacation-fun/#65008fdb2b85


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## DSS&A (Dec 13, 2016)

Hi,

Here's a second article about the renewed ski train.

http://www.denver.org/things-to-do/sports-recreation/ski-train/


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## PaulM (Dec 14, 2016)

DSS&A said:


> . Here's a link to an article in Forbes about the renewed ski train service.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryolmsted/2016/10/08/colorados-famed-ski-train-is-back-for-winter-vacation-fun/#65008fdb2b85


One of the least auto-centric articles I've ever seen.

The article did mention "dramatic improvements", but didn't mention whether eliminating the silly same day round trip requirement was one of them.

I can vouch for the fact that driving over Berthhold Pass and I 70 in the Winter is masochistic. I used to volunteer at the YMCA of the Rockees between Frasier and Granby. One of my jobs was driving seasonal employees into Denver. No fun. And that was 2005-2010. I'm sure traffic on 70 is even worse now.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 14, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Amtrak will be happy to provide dome car, and 1st class service. If your will to pay for it.


Can you point me to an example of Amtrak offering first class service with actual domes? Even their special leaf peeping and hardware retirement runs seem to be catered with box lunches and the like.



MikefromCrete said:


> Wow, we actually get back a train that went away and there are complaints that the train isn't using crappy old equipment.


You'd think Superliners from the 1970's would be old and crappy enough for anyone.



Seaboard92 said:


> From someone who works with their equipment regularly it isn't good. While it looks good from the outside (most times) inside is a totally different ball game. And I'm always cursing those cars. The domes may be nice for passengers. But for the things you don't notice the cars aren't in the best of shape.


On the other hand IP style equipment is more of a draw for many folks. Gotta find a way to appeal to passengers willing to spend. I just wish they had started service on a more scenic route like CS/CZ/SC than on the chicken bone express.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 15, 2016)

IP equipment might appeal to some people. But for the most part people on this type service don't care about the equipment. It's more of a point A to point B. Now on a train excursion then it starts to matter. Depends a lot on who you market to.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 15, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Amtrak will be happy to provide dome car, and 1st class service. If your will to pay for it. So if Amtrak has teamed up with a ski resort they might be contracted to provide dome car, and 1st class service. Never say Never,


Kind of a long shot, given the fact that then only own ONE dome car. You can't provide what you don't have, no matter what someone pays.

As to Amtrak's ability to provide truly first class service, frankly the corporate culture won't allow it, they just do not know how to do it. See the difference between the on-board service on the IP Hoosier State or the Canadian versus the "best" Amtrak trains like the Starlight, the Empire Builder or the Auto Train. Even the Acela.

I've got an idea...hire VIA Canadian onboard staff who are furloughed in the winter. They'd provide first class service.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 15, 2016)

Seaboard92 said:


> IP equipment might appeal to some people. But for the most part people on this type service don't care about the equipment. It's more of a point A to point B. Now on a train excursion then it starts to matter. Depends a lot on who you market to.


Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. Do you have any source for this?

Hoosier State Ridership is up, the only difference is the dome and service. The hoosier state is about as far away from an "Excursion" train as you can get. (Regional Corridor Train... not particularly scenic, terrible hours, etc.) - I'm not sure how the Hoosier State funding and costs are working out, but there is no doubt that the people riding it like the dome and first class service.

Also... whenever I ride the Coast Starlight, the people actually riding the train really seem to like and care about the Pacific Parlour Car.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 15, 2016)

zephyr17 said:


> I've got an idea...hire VIA Canadian onboard staff who are furloughed in the winter. They'd provide first class service.


Amtrak has staff that provides First Class Service... Dennis (SCA) on the Zephyr, Gul (SCA), Sergio (LSA), and Cody (Server) on the Empire Builder, Barbara (SCA) on the Starlight and Chief, they are out there. Unfortunately, Amtrak has alot of poor staff as well... it's the inconsistency that is the problem.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 15, 2016)

For a train like the ski train I don't think they need to provide a lot of fancy-pants service. It's only a couple of hours from Denver to Winter Park, they need staff who can efficiently load and unload the trains, take tickets and ride herd on a bunch of party-hearty skiers without offending them to the point that a drive over the Berthoud Pass seems like a better alternative.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 15, 2016)

It's really hard for me to imagine there is not a market for a true first class ski train experience.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 15, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > I've got an idea...hire VIA Canadian onboard staff who are furloughed in the winter. They'd provide first class service.
> ...


That inconsistency is part of the culture I was referring to, you can't guarantee the quality and I doubt Amtrak can even identify the on-board staff that does provide good service. Both IP and VIA do provide consistent quality service.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 15, 2016)

zephyr17 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > zephyr17 said:
> ...


Oh I totally agree. Amtrak does not seem to know or care who does a good job and who doesn't.

My experience with VIA and IP has been more consistent, but not always what I would call excellent. On a scale of 1-10, I've gotten service anywhere from a 1 - 10 on Amtrak, on VIA and IP it's been mostly 7-9. I can't recall a single IP or VIA employee that wowed me like Gul on the Empire Builder, or Barbara on the Starlight. But no one on VIA or IP has been overly or rude or as downright bossy as the Amtrak employees get to be.

(For reference I did travel on the IP overnight City of New Orleans as well as the Hoosier State.)


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## railiner (Dec 15, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It's really hard for me to imagine there is not a market for a true first class ski train experience.


IIRC, didn't the Ski Train during the Anschutz era, offer accommodations in the spectacular private dome lounge 'California' for a period? Or was that strictly sold as an entire car charter for "high-roller's"? Not sure....


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## eblkheart (Dec 16, 2016)

More info on the train: They are adding capacity to the train. It's doing well.

More here at the local business paper: http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2016/12/15/newwinter-park-ski-train-starting-jan-7th-already.html?ana=e_ae_set1&ed=2016-12-15&j=76772291&s=article_du&t=1481841357

Picture from the article, how the Viewliners are looking like (Amtrak pic):


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## jis (Dec 16, 2016)

eblkheart said:


> More here at the local business paper: http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2016/12/15/newwinter-park-ski-train-starting-jan-7th-already.html?ana=e_ae_set1&ed=2016-12-15&j=76772291&s=article_du&t=1481841357
> 
> Picture from the article, how the Viewliners are looking like (Amtrak pic):


Viewliner? Surely you meant to say Superliner, no?


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## Agent (Dec 16, 2016)

The Superliner with the wrap ad (or one of them if there's more) is currently running on the end of Amtrak #6(14), the eastbound _California Zephyr_ that will be arriving in Chicago today.


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## Karl1459 (Dec 16, 2016)

Just for fun I tried booking online (without confirming/paying). January 28 Denver to Winter Park, and return on January 29. It looked like it was going to accept the overnight. Fare was higher on Saturday than Sunday return and there is no AAA discount. The train shows "no checked baggage" and the only listed amenity is a wheelchair ramp.


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## eblkheart (Dec 16, 2016)

jis said:


> eblkheart said:
> 
> 
> > More here at the local business paper: http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2016/12/15/newwinter-park-ski-train-starting-jan-7th-already.html?ana=e_ae_set1&ed=2016-12-15&j=76772291&s=article_du&t=1481841357
> ...


Yup... sorry when I posted that, I had 3 hours of sleep in 36 hours  .


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## Agent (Dec 17, 2016)

Amtrak #6(15)'s last car has a different wrap ad for the _Winter Park Express_. This one says "Your Link to the Slopes." The train was seven hours and thirty-four minutes late at Agency, Iowa.


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 17, 2016)

Agent said:


> Amtrak #6(15)'s last car has a different wrap ad for the _Winter Park Express_. This one says "Your Link to the Slopes." The train was seven hours and thirty-four minutes late at Agency, Iowa.


NavyBlue is on that one...


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## chakk (Dec 17, 2016)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It's really hard for me to imagine there is not a market for a true first class ski train experience.


The former Ski Train between Denver and Winter Patk frequently carried a dome car and observation car that handled charter groups. It seemed to be a first class service.


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## Agent (Dec 19, 2016)

A third wrap ad was on Amtrak #6(17), but it was not on the last car this time. This one was "Your link to fresh tracks." It came through Agency, Iowa running seven hours and twenty-one minutes late. A post here says that three cars and an engine have been wrapped for the _Winter Park Express_. Anyone know more about that?


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## hermit (Dec 19, 2016)

crazy people crossing with the guards down,at least the cemetery is close by...


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## fairviewroad (Dec 20, 2016)

hermit said:


> crazy people crossing with the guards down,at least the cemetery is close by...


Ha, that was my thought exactly. Also, was that a heritage baggage car on there? I haven't seen one of those in months. I assumed they were all out of the system by now.


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## west point (Dec 20, 2016)

Getting a sponsor to wrap the cars and support the train will be a win - win for Amtrak, Train sponsor, Winter Park Ski, & sponsor.


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## Agent (Dec 20, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> Also, was that a heritage baggage car on there? I haven't seen one of those in months. I assumed they were all out of the system by now.


This was the sixth #6 to use a heritage baggage car this month.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Dec 21, 2016)

I spotted the "Your Link to the Slopes" car at Ivy City in Washington while passing through on train 91 this afternoon.


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## Agent (Dec 27, 2016)

Video from today by YouTube user CameraManRailFan shows the coach with the "Your link to the slopes" wrap ad is now on a westbound _Southwest Chief_.


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 1, 2017)

What's the mileage between DEN and WPR?

Thanks,

jb


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 1, 2017)

Hmmmmmmm. Looks like you can book a ticket on this train (via Amtrak's reservations system), but you can't track it.

jb


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## Agent (Jan 1, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> Hmmmmmmm. Looks like you can book a ticket on this train (via Amtrak's reservations system), but you can't track it.
> 
> jb


Are you trying to track it now? The website says it starts January 7.


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 1, 2017)

According to my data sources, it ran today. We'll have to see what happens next week.

jb


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## railiner (Jan 1, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> What's the mileage between DEN and WPR?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> jb


Approximately 56 miles...


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 3, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> According to my data sources, it ran today. We'll have to see what happens next week.
> 
> jb


The Amtrak reservations system faked me out. I did a false booking from DEN to WPR for today. Instead of responding that the train doesn't run today, it responded with Saturday's (1/7) train. I missed the date.

jb


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## Agent (Jan 4, 2017)

Last night, I caught Amtrak #5(03) at Ottumwa, Iowa with three locomotives and eight Superliners on the head-end for the _Winter Park Express_. The third unit was the anniversary unit AMTK 156. I guessing that one is going to the power for the _Express_. Over the radio, the crew kept calling their _Zephyr _"heavy." As the train is trying to depart at the 1:50 mark, you can just here someone say "I think I can, I think can."


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## Palmetto (Jan 5, 2017)

If no one has already mentioned it, I will: this will be a push-pull operation using an non-powered F-40 on one end.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 5, 2017)

Agent said:


> Over the radio, the crew kept calling their _Zephyr _"heavy."


In the aviation world "heavy" is a standard (but unsanctioned) term that is used in the US to draw attention to wing vortices and wake turbulence from nearby aircraft. Is there any _actual_ relevance to using such a term in the rail transportation world or is it strictly a cutesy term for a slightly unusual event? Amtrak's heaviest passenger train would still be a lightweight compared to almost any freight train, but do really long and/or heavy freight trains warrant any special terminology during radio communications?


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## PVD (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm not sure it would be called unsanctioned, it is now used worldwide, anything over 300,000 MTOW is a heavy and is transmitted as such. The 757 is not technically a "heavy", but gets the special treatment for separation due to the wing vortices and wake turbulence potential. I share your curiosity as to its application in rail.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 5, 2017)

She ain't heavy, she's my Zephyr.


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## Karl1459 (Jan 6, 2017)

The ski train made CNN news.... http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/06/travel/amtrak-ski-train-denver-colorado-winter-park/


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## Agent (Jan 7, 2017)

Short news video by CBS Denver from Thursday. Also, here's a story from the Associated Press.


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## Albo5000 (Jan 7, 2017)

This may seem like a silly question, but why would they only do one round trip per day? Won't the equipment and crew just be sitting around most of the day? Unless the engineer and conductors plan to ski too!

But seriously, I would hate to have to wake up to be at the station for 7am, They could easily do a 7 am and 1pm train to Winter park and a 10 am and 4pm train back to Denver.... I know ridership is a huge factor and track right of way, but still.....


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 7, 2017)

Albo5000 said:


> This may seem like a silly question, but why would they only do one round trip per day? Won't the equipment and crew just be sitting around most of the day? Unless the engineer and conductors plan to ski too!
> 
> But seriously, I would hate to have to wake up to be at the station for 7am, They could easily do a 7 am and 1pm train to Winter park and a 10 am and 4pm train back to Denver.... I know ridership is a huge factor and track right of way, but still.....


The purpose of this trip is to allow for a day of skiing for Denver area residents, which the schedule provides. Who would ride the 10 a.m trip back to Denver? This is an excursion train chartered by a special interest group, not a regular Amtrak train.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 7, 2017)

Albo5000 said:


> This may seem like a silly question, but why would they only do one round trip per day? Won't the equipment and crew just be sitting around most of the day? Unless the engineer and conductors plan to ski too!
> 
> But seriously, I would hate to have to wake up to be at the station for 7am, They could easily do a 7 am and 1pm train to Winter park and a 10 am and 4pm train back to Denver.... I know ridership is a huge factor and track right of way, but still.....



Questions that come to mind:

What did the host railroad allow?

What is the demand in ridership? In other words, some people may return the same day, but some may stay overnight. The numbers clearly reflect that. So, while I can see a person that is staying overnight starting their day in the afternoon, you haven't calculated any extra costs for host fees, fuel, wear and tear.

Additionally, you'd need another crew since one crew is currently covering this move with an FRA interim release. If they ran more trains, you'd need another crew or they'd have to come back earlier.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 7, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> > Over the radio, the crew kept calling their _Zephyr _"heavy."
> ...



The term generally applies to slow acceleration. When a dispatcher hears that term, they know it will take extra time for the train to achieve track speed.


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## neroden (Jan 7, 2017)

At the NARP meeting, the Winter Park guy was asked about multiple trains per day and he said "Let's start with one," and then started discussing negotiations with Union Pacific. So the implication I got is that doing a second train might require him to pay more to Union Pacific and they wanted to see how well the first train would do first.

Hopefully in a year or two there will be a second run (Winter Park -> Denver in the morning, Denver -> Winter Park in the afternoon) for those who like to stay overnight and have a more leisurely schedule, but it'll be a smaller market.


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## Agent (Jan 7, 2017)

I saw Amtrak #6(05) come through Agency, Iowa today five hours late with only one engine. The original lead unit, as seen on Mr. Steve4031's trip report here, became the lead unit on the first run on the _Winter Park Express_.


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## lstone19 (Jan 7, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> > Over the radio, the crew kept calling their _Zephyr _"heavy."
> ...


Building on PVD's response farther up, rather than being unsanctioned, "heavy" is a required term for any aircraft with a maximum gross weight over 300,000 pounds. Typically, any widebody is a heavy and back when they operated, long range DC-8s were "heavy" as well (may have applied to the 707 as well but I was never in a position to hear one of those).


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## eblkheart (Jan 7, 2017)

Pics of the train:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/601835/

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/601839/

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/601836/

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/601982/


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## neroden (Jan 7, 2017)

They're using the "Ski Train" platform.  It was designed into Union Station specifically so the Ski Train would have a separate platform from the California Zephyr (in case a delayed Zephyr was in the station at the same time, I guess).


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## Steve4031 (Jan 7, 2017)

Oh. Lol. We had 2 in Denver.


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## Train2104 (Jan 7, 2017)

Quite unexpectedly, unlike other Amtrak special trains, this one shows up on Track-A-Train and caused some issues with my site earlier as "WPR" is a brand new station code.

All should be fixed for tomorrow.


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## eblkheart (Jan 7, 2017)

Seems like the Train is a hit:

http://www.9news.com/news/travel/winter-park-express-the-seasons-first-trip/383520436

Report from yesterday, with views of the inside.

http://kdvr.com/2017/01/06/winter-park-ski-train-makes-first-run-of-season-saturday/#ooid=piajJzODE6Ian-NzH1pZQKR2FWIjNq-l

more reports:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/front-range/denver/ski-train-to-winter-park-makes-first-trip-from-denvers-union-station-since-2009

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/01/07/winter-park-express-ski-train-colorado/


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## Agent (Jan 8, 2017)

Video by YouTube user CrookedandSlow showing the first run of the _Winter Park Express_.


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## west point (Jan 8, 2017)

Did you notice which unit(s) were providing HEP both up and back to DEN ? 406 or one of the P-42s ?

Would suspect that 406 would be used for HEP if one of the P-42s failed ?

The only problem with the whole line up is using DC traction motored P-42s. What if some weekend fine powder snow that can short DCs is forecast for the route ?


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## Palmetto (Jan 8, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Agent said:
> ...


The term "dog" is used, and it's to refer to a train that is slow-moving and/or low priority. Loaded grain trains fit the bill.


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## AG1 (Jan 8, 2017)

west point said:


> Did you notice which unit(s) were providing HEP both up and back to DEN ? 406 or one of the P-42s ?
> 
> Would suspect that 406 would be used for HEP if one of the P-42s failed ?
> 
> The only problem with the whole line up is using DC traction motored P-42s. What if some weekend fine powder snow that can short DCs is forecast for the route ?


406 doesn't have an engine. Read post #81.


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## west point (Jan 8, 2017)

RRRick said:


> 406 doesn't have an engine. Read post #81.


No prime mover but it is equipped with a cummings HEP generator


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 8, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...



It depends on your regional slang. I've heard heavy, pig, dog, slug, sloth, slow boat and snail with regularity depending on the division.


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## Agent (Jan 15, 2017)

For a non-train enthusiast perspective on the _Winter Park Express_, here's a video by the YouTube channel TravelingJules.


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