# NJ Transit "Comet Cars" in California?



## Blackwolf (Feb 5, 2012)

An interesting portion of the meeting minutes from the San Joaquin Valley Rail Committee meeting that was held in Atwater, CA on January 26. The part quoted below _really_ caught my attention, as I'd not heard about this plan before now!



> Both Bill Bronte of CalTrans and Anthony Chapa of Amtrak mentioned a piece about the upcoming delivery of “Comet” Cars. These cars were previously used by New Jersey Transit and will most likely be on the San Joaquin by Labor Day 2012. This, in the interim, will increase train lengths and provide a benefit for both the Capitol Corridor as well as the San Joaquin.


The rest of the minutes can be found HERE.

I find it VERY interesting that Comet cars would be relocated to California, and that there will be the reintroduction of single-level service on routes like the Capital Corridor and San Joaquins again. History repeating itself??


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 5, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> An interesting portion of the meeting minutes from the San Joaquin Valley Rail Committee meeting that was held in Atwater, CA on January 26. The part quoted below _really_ caught my attention, as I'd not heard about this plan before now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like a bad idea to me, since the Comets are Horizon cars without any amenities. For a route like the San Joaquins, they should pay passengers to ride them. This sounds like a short term solution until the next generation of bi-levels are built.


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## Gfoley4 (Feb 5, 2012)

What happened to the Horizons that Amtrak California used before the new bi-levels? Are they all being used in Illinois corridor service now?


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## gswager (Feb 5, 2012)

Gfoley4 said:


> What happened to the Horizons that Amtrak California used before the new bi-levels? Are they all being used in Illinois corridor service now?


I believe they're still on Pacific Surfliner route.


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## johnny.menhennet (Feb 5, 2012)

gswager said:


> Gfoley4 said:
> 
> 
> > What happened to the Horizons that Amtrak California used before the new bi-levels? Are they all being used in Illinois corridor service now?
> ...


Only one consist is, and it's currently in Northern California for the Reno Fun Train


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## Blackwolf (Feb 9, 2013)

Reviving an old thread, as the past year has proved to allow for more information to solidify.

Here are the facts. CalTrans (California Department of Transportation; Division of Rail) has purchased the following outright:


(14) former NJTransit Comet 1B cars, completely overhauled. All mechanical equipment has been replaced/re-manufactured. Interiors have been fully stripped and replaced with the same seats/luggage bins/restroom modules as the California Car fleet, just in single-level format. Automatic sliding doors have been replaced with "traditional" dutch doors and traps. Cab car equipment has been completely removed, but the cars are trainlined for push-pull service with a NPCU.
(3) former Amtrak Horizon dinette cars, completely overhauled. Interiors ave been fully stripped and replaced with table seating similar to the California Car fleet, a cafe counter set up to also resemble the California Car fleet (convection ovens, toasters, cart-based storage of product,) and a workstation for the conductor which also has a two-way radio charging station.
(3) former Amtrak F40PH locomotives, overhauled into NPCU-baggage configuration. These units are listed as #403, #405 and #407. These locomotives were "reactivated" in Amtrak's roster in July of 2012, though the "90" prefix has not yet been applied to their roster numbers.
Source: CalTrans Comet 1b Presentation for San Joaquin Service.


Additional, CalTrans has _supposedly _(this is unconfirmed, but these locomotives are reported to be under active rebuild by Amtrak) also purchased three Amtrak P40DC locomotives to be used on Amtrak California routes. The locomotives are #813, #825 and #827. This is to allow for more motive power owned by CTDX, allowing some portion of the Amtrak locomotive roster being used by Capitol Corridor/San Joaquin trains to be returned for use on the national network.

All equipment purchased by CalTrans will be painted in Amtrak California livery. The first of these rebuilt Comet 1b's are likely to be arriving (if not already arrived) into Oakland right about now (January/February 2013.) The rest of the purchases are to be in California by mid-summer 2013. Keep a lookout!


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## roadman3313 (Feb 9, 2013)

Thanks for the update! I was wondering myself as this seems to have been a dead issue for a while. I'd assumed if the prototypes were making their way West that someone in our huge Network of AU members would spot them... or Amtrak/Caltrans would issue a Press Release of some sort.

As far as I can tell the Oakland Maintenance Facility appears to have the normal California Train sets and the California Zephyr cars as of last check passing by tonight on 14(8). The only cars arriving the past two weeks were for the Reno Fun/Snow Train which should be in the Reno area tonight on layover until Sunday


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## roadman3313 (Feb 9, 2013)

And only question regarding the seating... last I heard they were using standard Amtrak seats (Similar to the California Super liner Rebuild Seats with no leg rests) but in an Intercity 2/2 layout. 64 Seats per car with 6 tables. 38 seats facing the "B" end and 26 seats facing the "A" end. Has this changed?


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## Blackwolf (Feb 9, 2013)

roadman3313 said:


> And only question regarding the seating... last I heard they were using standard Amtrak seats (Similar to the California Super liner Rebuild Seats with no leg rests) but in an Intercity 2/2 layout. 64 Seats per car with 6 tables. 38 seats facing the "B" end and 26 seats facing the "A" end. Has this changed?


Looking at the photos of the Comet 1B cars being rebuilt, it would appear as if they are indeed using the standard Amtrak intercity (Amfleet i) seats. And the layout is the same, but I have to scratch my head a little bit about the certainty of which direction the seats are facing. If they use the Amtrak seats without modification, they would still have the mechanism for "turning" the seat pair around. But, for all I know (since these cars and everything put inside of them are no longer Amtrak property, but bought and paid for in full by California) the seats will be permanently set in one direction and not capable of being spun about any more.

Little details, I know. I look forward to seeing these cars in person after their arrival in California.


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## Ted Bell (Feb 9, 2013)

The Utah Transit Authority purchased 25 Comet Cars from NJ Transit. They were refurbished by Bombardier and are added to the FrontRunner commuter rail when demand is high.


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## gswager (Feb 9, 2013)

What is "CTDX"?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 9, 2013)

roadman3313 said:


> Thanks for the update! I was wondering myself as this seems to have been a dead issue for a while. I'd assumed if the prototypes were making their way West that someone in our huge Network of AU members would spot them... or Amtrak/Caltrans would issue a Press Release of some sort.
> As far as I can tell the Oakland Maintenance Facility appears to have the normal California Train sets and the California Zephyr cars as of last check passing by tonight on 14(8). The only cars arriving the past two weeks were for the Reno Fun/Snow Train which should be in the Reno area tonight on layover until Sunday


If you could post some pictures when they come in, that would be great!


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## gswager (Feb 9, 2013)

Majority of CA cars have automatic doors. I'm scratching my head on why the former Comet cars are going to be installed with manual dutch style doors instead of automatic doors. Care to give us an explanation?


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## Blackwolf (Feb 9, 2013)

gswager said:


> What is "CTDX"?


California Department of Transportation; Division of Rail. The government agency who owns and runs the intercity rail system in California. Amtrak (AMTK) has a contract to provide operating and on-board crews to staff the three routes.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 9, 2013)

gswager said:


> Majority of CA cars have automatic doors. I'm scratching my head on why the former Comet cars are going to be installed with manual dutch style doors instead of automatic doors. Care to give us an explanation?


No real official reason.

But if I were to wager a guess, it is because all of the stations in California are low-level and using automatic doors with step-traps may be confusing to passengers used to getting aboard the Superliner-style cars which proliferate here on the west coast. Most passengers using Amtrak California have no experience with what the rest of the country likely sees as normal; single level passenger cars you have to climb steps to get aboard are outright alien. So, with litigation on the mind, have manual doors (which have safety interlocks that lock them when the train is moving) that require a crew member present for passengers to board and disembark. But this is only my take on the matter.


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## X (Feb 9, 2013)

gswager said:


> What is "CTDX"?


C*DT*X is the Association of American Railroads (AAR) reporting mark for Caltrans (California Department of Transportation). All North American railroad equipment is assigned a reporting mark, to denote who the owner of the equipment is. If you look at a frieght car, you'll see they all have a reporting mark and car number painted on them, say HLCX 903213, but normal practice for passenger cars is to just use the number, and not the mark. So California coach car #8001 is really CDTX 8001, likewise F59PHI #2015 is actually CDTX 2015.

Also the X on the end of CDTX denotes that while Caltrans owns the equipment, it's not actually a railroad and doesn't operate said equipment.


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## X (Feb 9, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> gswager said:
> 
> 
> > Majority of CA cars have automatic doors. I'm scratching my head on why the former Comet cars are going to be installed with manual dutch style doors instead of automatic doors. Care to give us an explanation?
> ...


The traps have to be manually opened and closed, meaning a crew member has to be present from the get go. And when there's someone there already, it's simple to have them open the side door as well. Automatic side doors are expensive, maintenance time consuming, pains in the rear that delay trains when they don't work right. So getting rid of them makes sense on multiple levels.


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## rickycourtney (Feb 10, 2013)

Interestingly the Comet I cars that are shown above (UTA's FrontRunner) don't have traps (they only use low level platforms) and the doors are automated. I realize that CDTX is using the somewhat different Comet IB's but it IS possible to have automated doors at low level platforms. My guess is that CDTX wants to be able to sell these cars to someone else (possibly back east?) after they are no longer needed in California.


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## jis (Feb 10, 2013)

But back east they do use remotely operated full length doors so that they can be operated remotely both at high and low level platforms with the traps set appropriately. So an outfit like NJT would certainly not buy them back without remote operated doors.


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## X (Feb 11, 2013)

rickycourtney said:


> Interestingly the Comet I cars that are shown above (UTA's FrontRunner) don't have traps (they only use low level platforms) and the doors are automated. I realize that CDTX is using the somewhat different Comet IB's but it IS possible to have automated doors at low level platforms. My guess is that CDTX wants to be able to sell these cars to someone else (possibly back east?) after they are no longer needed in California.


After some research it looks like the UTA Comet Is were built without traps, and thus full length side doors. The Comet IBs on the other hand were built with (retrofitied with?) traps, and side doors that only extend down to the level of the closed trap.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 4, 2013)

The first sighting!

Since I had a day off from work, and the weather was perfect, I took the opportunity to walk around Sacramento. My camera came along with, since I was intending (and succeeded) in nabbing a few shots of the on-going renovations to Sacramento Valley Station. Walking toward the station from along the river, I heard the familiar sound of a K5LA being blasted twice, and caught the substantially (over an hour) early California Zephyr #5(2) pulling away from the new platforms and heading for the I Street Bridge.

Out came my camera just in case something out of the usual was spotted... And boy was there! Right behind the twin P-42DC's was a third F-40! It was fresh from paint, in a brand new color scheme for AmtrakCalifornia, and had the ubiquitous rollup door of a Cabbage; one of the three F-40's AmCal just purchased and had converted to NPCU's! The picture I scrambled to take as the train crossed the bridge is a bit blurry, but this is the fate of former Amtrak F-40 #405:






And so, the 'new' single-level fleet is obviously trickling in. Keep a look-out on the California Zephyr these coming days and weeks as I imagine more equipment moves will be taking place in short order. There should be two other NPCU's, three P-40's also in this new AmCal scheme, and 14 Comet 1B's.


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## Trogdor (Mar 4, 2013)

Is that the former 405?

I saw the 90218 in Chicago on Friday in that paint scheme, having just arrived on 851. So, that would tell me it's the former 218.


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## shelzp (Mar 4, 2013)

There are some old New Jersey transit cars on a side railing between the Newhall Metrolink and Santa Clarita Metrolink stops on the Antelope Valley line in Southern California. Some folks may see them if they take the Tehachapi Loop trip. Thully mentioned them on one of his trip reports when he was going to Magic Mountain although I don't think he knew what they were. He commented on the unusual cars there.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 4, 2013)

shelzp said:


> There are some old New Jersey transit cars on a side railing between the Newhall Metrolink and Santa Clarita Metrolink stops on the Antelope Valley line in Southern California. Some folks may see them if they take the Tehachapi Loop trip. Thully mentioned them on one of his trip reports when he was going to Magic Mountain although I don't think he knew what they were. He commented on the unusual cars there.


Yeah, those have been there for a while and are property of MetroLink. They are 'dead' cars in every sense of the word, and have an as-yet undetermined date with the scrapper. The cars purchased by California for the San Joaquin route are a whole different set of cars and are completely rebuilt.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 4, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> Is that the former 405?
> I saw the 90218 in Chicago on Friday in that paint scheme, having just arrived on 851. So, that would tell me it's the former 218.


I'll look again through a few of my other photos. 90405 is what I wrote down in haste; maybe someone else in the Bay Area can get a view of the unit as it is assuredly sitting in Oakland now.


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## rickycourtney (Mar 4, 2013)

I can confirm this is AMTK 90218.

The new Amtrak California livery on this "Non-Powered Control Unit" (NPCU) looks a lot like the old CalTrain livery. It has the same colors and shape of the stripes, same red/white nose and it's even been named "Oakland."


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## shelzp (Mar 4, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> shelzp said:
> 
> 
> > There are some old New Jersey transit cars on a side railing between the Newhall Metrolink and Santa Clarita Metrolink stops on the Antelope Valley line in Southern California. Some folks may see them if they take the Tehachapi Loop trip. Thully mentioned them on one of his trip reports when he was going to Magic Mountain although I don't think he knew what they were. He commented on the unusual cars there.
> ...


Thanks for the info and I wonder why Metrolink would have the darn things. That track used to have interesting old train cars that were being used for movies but now those hulks sit there.


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## calwatch (Mar 4, 2013)

At SJVRC on Thursday Caltrans is targeting for the first set to be delivered by summer. They will use it on the lowest ridership turn (I believe it was 711/718 but don't quote me on that) and break that set up and put it on the other train set. The next set is supposed going to be delivered in fall in time for the Thanksgiving rush.


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## X (Mar 5, 2013)

No P40's, any extra trains will have to wait until the F59 rebuilds are complete. However there are 3 Horizon food service cars coming along with the Comets.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 5, 2013)

X said:


> No P40's, any extra trains will have to wait until the F59 rebuilds are complete. However there are 3 Horizon food service cars coming along with the Comets.


How certain are you that there are no P-40's Two sources were used in coming up with the following, although I held out calling this certain until a third source came up:



> Additional, CalTrans has _supposedly _(this is unconfirmed, but these locomotives are reported to be under active rebuild by Amtrak) also purchased three Amtrak P40DC locomotives to be used on Amtrak California routes. The locomotives are #813, #825 and #827. This is to allow for more motive power owned by CTDX, allowing some portion of the Amtrak locomotive roster being used by Capitol Corridor/San Joaquin trains to be returned for use on the national network.


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## jeremykhn (Mar 5, 2013)

I have also heard from someone who talked to a guy at Oakland Facility that they were expecting three P40DC locomotives.

I figure these would be bought either from NJT (Cause they have 3 P40's they want to sell), or the three that were at Wilmington and sent to Beech Grove in the Fall.

If they did actually purchase the three P40DC's, they would probably take a heck of a lot longer, since they sat for a very long time.


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## SubwayNut (Mar 5, 2013)

I have my own photo proof of one of the ex-Amtrak P40s running on New Jersey transit 2 months ago. It would be kind of funny if they bought those locomotives (nearly full circle Amtrak-NJT-Amtrak) to power ex-NJT equipment that never operated with the P40s purchased for the ACES service.

Wonder if the cars will be in service by next June, the next time I'm in California, I really want to get some photos of NJT cars somewhere else. Already have them on FrontRunner (not Metrolink though).


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## jeremykhn (Mar 5, 2013)

The cycle would be more like (Amtrak-NJT-CalTrans), but only reason I suggestion NJT, is that they have been wanting to get rid of the P40DC's they have.

There were in the fall 3 P40DC's moved out of Bear Facility and sat at Wilmington for a few days,then moved to Beech Grove. Those could be the 3 P40's being rumored on.

As for the service of the Comets. Your in luck. The first ones are being delivered this week. Service is expected to start by Summer time, and all of them ready to go before Thanksgiving.

I know the colors scheme hasn't been favored on the Cabbages, but it's the Comet's that I believe will make it look a heck of a lot better.

They are expected to be sent on the California Zephyr.


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## X (Mar 5, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> X said:
> 
> 
> > No P40's, any extra trains will have to wait until the F59 rebuilds are complete. However there are 3 Horizon food service cars coming along with the Comets.
> ...


I got the information firsthand from an in-the-loop Amtrak Manager, is about all I can say without giving my source and myself up. I will try and confirm with someone from Caltrans / PB (Parsons Brinckerhoff) when I get a chance.


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## Ryan (Mar 5, 2013)

jeremykhn said:


> There were in the fall 3 P40DC's moved out of Bear Facility and sat at Wilmington for a few days,then moved to Beech Grove. Those could be the 3 P40's being rumored on.


Those would be 800:





Philly_Train_Trip_37 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

801:





Philly_Train_Trip_38 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

and 806:





Philly_Train_Trip_39 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

I thought that there were more than 3, but it only looks like I got pictures of 3 (I'll have to check my "rejects" when I get home to see if there were any others lurking in the background of a shot I didn't post).


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## jeremykhn (Mar 5, 2013)

800 is actually in NJT colors and was renumbered 4800. The units moved before were 828 for sure and the other two I believe were 826 and 813.


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## R30A (Mar 5, 2013)

800 is not 4800. The former 812 is.

And it is a lot more than 800 801 and 806 which were moved. All remaining amtrak unrebuilt P40s were transferred to BEE. To copy and paste, from OTOL"800-806, 811, 813, 826-828, 839", although I saw 825 in the line up as well.


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## Ryan (Mar 5, 2013)

jeremykhn said:


> 800 is actually in NJT colors and was renumbered 4800. The units moved before were 828 for sure and the other two I believe were 826 and 813.


 That doesn't look like NJT colors to me.



Ryan said:


> Philly_Train_Trip_37 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr


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## jeremykhn (Mar 5, 2013)

Huh okay. That's what happens when you assume. 

I forgot about the remaining units being moved too. Thanks for the reminder.


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## jeremykhn (Mar 5, 2013)

Found this video, very awesome shot too.. The Cabbage don't look as bad in the video I have to say.


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## Ryan (Mar 5, 2013)

Nice, I think that is pretty smooth looking.


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## roadman3313 (Mar 6, 2013)

Nothing out of the ordinary in the yard in Oakland today. Just some left over cars for the Fun Train this weekend that didn't make it onto the Snow Train today. The NPCU might be inside getting checked out. If any other cars come in I'll try to post what I observe here.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 26, 2015)

I rode NJ Transit this morning in a car with maroon seats (2 and 3 across) that looks very much like the photos of a Comet V. I have been in it (or another of the same type) a couple of times before (it has always been on the end, so becomes the Quiet Car, which I like).

Is this possible? Are there still a few of these in New Jersey and being used by NJ Transit?

Thanks in advance to the experts here for any insight.


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## jis (May 26, 2015)

NJTransit still has many many Comet Vs in service. It has not sold any of those to anyone. Additionally, all the west of Hudson MNRR cars are Comet Vs too, which sometimes find their way onto non-MNRR trains of NJT.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 26, 2015)

Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification, jis.

They are attractive and a nice treat when I come across them. (The seats aren't as comfortable as they look, but I'm only on there for 15 minutes, so I don't mind.)


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## jis (May 26, 2015)

There were 265 Comet Vs acquired between NJT and MNRR. Of these 263 are currently in service in New Jersey.

BTW, the NJT cars that were refurbished at Beech Grove for use on the San Joaquins are the so called Comarrows or Comet 1Bs which started their life as EMU Arrow I cars, 30 of which ran as de-motored trailer Comet 1B on NJT for a while before being retired. CalDOT acquired 14 of them and had them rebuilt at Beech Grove for use on the San Joaquin service (and perhaps others). I rode them over this last weekend. They have done a really good job of refurbishing them. It appears that their plan is to have 3 consists each of 4 Comarrows, one Horizon food service car (also with CDTX mark) one NPCU and one CalDOT locomotive, the loco facing north out of Bakersfield and south at Oakland. AFAICT at present only a single consist is used on 712/717.


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## kneemeister (May 26, 2015)

I am on 712 now and prefer these comet cars to the Horizon cars we have back in Michigan, although they do ride rough.


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