# Caltrain engineer overshooting a station



## BCL (Nov 19, 2012)

Had it happen last week. Caltrain 322 Baby Bullet with limited stops actually missed on of those stops. The conductor made an announcement sounding all embarrassed after the train failed to stop at Palo Alto. I don't think it was that big a deal for those at the Palo Alto station since the 324 came 15 minutes later with all the same stops from Palo Alto.

However, our train finally stopped at the California Ave Station and the doors didn't open at first. The conductor said that before they'd let people out, they would have to "sort things out". I'm thinking they needed to contact other trains telling them that there would be passengers going backwards and that they shouldn't give citations. I would also guess that they contacted the next northbound train to tell them to make a stop at California Ave even if it wasn't normally scheduled.


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## Texan Eagle (Nov 20, 2012)

I am not surprised. Caltrain seems to have a whole bunch of incompetent engineers who do not have 100% concentration on their driving. I commute daily and have seen too many incidents of platform overshoot to count, though it is usually by 10-20 meters, not one whole station! I know some Caltrain supporters will come down heavily on me for the harsh words but the frequency of these things on Caltrain really surprises me. Before coming here, I used to live in Mumbai, India for 6 years and use to commute by commuter trains twice daily every day. On the several thousand trips I have made, I did not see one, exactly ZERO incidents of platform overshoots. Not a fair comparison but never have I experienced a plane pilot overshoot a runway (thank God!) or overshoot a gate at the airport.. but these Caltrain engineers seem to take their job a bit too casually.. I fear it is only a matter of time before a Big One occurs.


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## JS (Nov 21, 2012)

That's funny - comparing the Indian RR to an 80mph train that operates like a bus service. What exactly is the "Big One"? If they go past the station who cares, they can back up - you act like there's a keg of dynamite on the other side of the station, besides the train is already authorized to continue moving past the station....

Well, I enjoy the train crews and I value their ability to handle the huge volume of people and the s**t-heads that conduct themselves like imbeciles. Keep up the good work CalTrain!


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## Blackwolf (Nov 21, 2012)

Perhaps there are situations in play here that we're not familiar with, but I really don't think the solution to this problem of overshoot involves expensive gadgets and technology. It lies in discipline. Let's face it, modern American society lacks discipline and responsibility like a zombie lacks good hygiene. Do I personally think this is a dangerous trend? Absolutely. In the context of a railroad engineer at the controls of a massive machine hauling hundreds of people back and forth along the same boring and non-scenic piece of ROW, there is no excuse. They need to do their job, no matter how monotonous or mind-numbing as it is, with the utmost discipline and responsibility. It is amazing that, in years past, the many railroad employees who operated trains did so without these issues being commonplace. Of course, it used to be a lot easier to simply fire an engineer if they overshot a station. I might be wrong, but didn't the conductor actually have that authority at one time in history? Today, it is simply swept away with a shrug.

Then again, how many times does a NEC Regional overshoot a platform? Or an entire station? Just because this is CalTrain on the West Coast instead of Amtrak on the East Coast should make no difference. Overshoot once, you're on probation as an employee. Overshoot again, and you're history. It is just good common discipline.


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## DET63 (Nov 21, 2012)

> If they go past the station who cares, they can back up - you act like there's a keg of dynamite on the other side of the station, besides the train is already authorized to continue moving past the station....


Is it really that simple? Or does an order have to be given allowing the train to back up? What if the station is just past a grade crossing (there still are some on the Caltrain line), and the act of backing either activates the gates or even puts the rear of the train back into the crossing? In short, backing up the train unexpectedly may not be as simple or routine as one might initially expect.


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## AlanB (Nov 21, 2012)

DET63 said:


> > If they go past the station who cares, they can back up - you act like there's a keg of dynamite on the other side of the station, besides the train is already authorized to continue moving past the station....
> 
> 
> Is it really that simple? Or does an order have to be given allowing the train to back up? What if the station is just past a grade crossing (there still are some on the Caltrain line), and the act of backing either activates the gates or even puts the rear of the train back into the crossing? In short, backing up the train unexpectedly may not be as simple or routine as one might initially expect.


It's not that simple!

If they miss by a couple of feet, then they may be able to get away with a very short backup move. But if they've missed by a couple of car lengths, gone over a grade crossing, or entered a new signal block; then a backup move is not possible without permission from a controller, who may or may not grant such permission depending on what's coming up behind the train.


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## Texan Eagle (Nov 29, 2012)

JS said:


> What exactly is the "Big One"?


Big One would be the day the engineer overshoots the train by so much that it hits another train ahead or a car/pedestrian something.



> If they go past the station who cares, they can back up


Who cares? The engineer and the dispatch should care. I don't know how familiar you are with train operations but driving a train is not like driving a car. Trains run on block signals, overshooting a platform might put the train into the next signal block if the signal is right at the edge of the station. That is a serious mistake and is not taken lightly.



> - you act like there's a keg of dynamite on the other side of the station, besides the train is already authorized to continue moving past the station....


Read above. No, the train is NOT always authorized to move past the station when it arrives at the station. The next block can have stop (red) or warning (yellow) signal aspects.



> Well, I enjoy the train crews and I value their ability to handle the huge volume of people and the s**t-heads that conduct themselves like imbeciles. Keep up the good work CalTrain!


Since you laughed at my comparison with the suburban train system in Mumbai, let me tell you what "huge volume of people" is. Caltrain's ridership per day is 46,000-odd. Do you know how many passengers does the passenger rail system in Mumbai handle (without engineers overshooting platforms)? 7,240,000. Yes, that is 7.24 million per day, more than twice the ANNUAL ridership of Amtrak and 157 times the daily ridership of CalTrain. THAT is huge volume of people, compared to that Caltrain deals with peanuts. Now who's laughing?


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## George Harris (Nov 29, 2012)

Missing by a couple of feet would hardly count as a miss at all. Missing by a car length, maybe. On one occasion I caught a Caltrain where it had overrun to the point that the first car, which is the bicycle car was beyond the platform. No backup. People with bikes just dropped to the ballast.

Overrunning a signal block is not in the same league as overrunning a platform. It is also unrelated.


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## Trogdor (Dec 1, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Yes, that is 7.24 million per day, more than twice the ANNUAL ridership of Amtrak


Amtrak only carries 3.5 million people per year?

Was there some massive cut that I missed?


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## jis (Dec 1, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> JS said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly is the "Big One"?
> ...


I am afraid your Indian colored glasses may be confusing you. In IR platforms are usually in stations and the platform track itself is protected by a Home signal at the entry and a Starter signal at the exit. This is consistent with British practice. So overrunning a platform can indeed cause one to also overrun the Starter signal and foul something important.

In the US, in general passenger platforms are not aligned with dispatching "Stations", i.e. block boundaries. So there is very often no block limit at the end of a platform. So overrunning the platform by a bit seldom places you in danger of fouling a block. Hence the bit about "the Big One" is a bit over the top IMHO, specially in areas with PTC or ATS of any kind in operation, something that is more or less non-existent in the case of IR one might add.

Now the setup in US causes other headaches and additional rules like the DIB rule to be in place to protect against various other possible scenarios of violations leading to accidents. But that is a different discussion. Another difference is that typically there is no Starter signal at block stations (interlockings) in the US. Instead the status of the routing through the interlocking and the status of the section beyond is encoded in the more complex aspects presented in the Home signal for the interlocking. That is why there are multi-head Home signals in the US whereas single head signals (in most cases) suffice in India. The signal found often with two heads in India is the Outer signal which often has a Warner head conveying the state of the Home signal ahead.

Hope this explains the differences in system and why a bit of a platform overrun in the US is never a matter of huge concern, unless an actual block boundary is overrun in the process. And if the latter happens, trust me the Engineer involved goes through hell and back. For example I have been on an Amtrak train which managed to do that. The Engineer was immediately relieved of duty and the train held for a significant amount of time while a new crew waas found to take over and move it. Rules violation is a huge deal. Overrunning a platform by a bit is not a rules violation. It is just an inconvenience.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 1, 2012)

Back in 1972, there was a terrible accident on the Illinois Central Railroad's suburban service in Chicago. A train of then-new Highliner equipment overshot the 27th Street station. The overshot put the train in another block territory, but the crew backed the train into the 27th Street station. A train of the old IC Pullman cars entered the block with a clear signal and crashed into the Highliner-equipped train at speed resulting a number of casualties and hundreds of injuries. So, you see, overshooting a train can have dangerous consequences and should never be taken lightly.


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## jis (Dec 1, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> Back in 1972, there was a terrible accident on the Illinois Central Railroad's suburban service in Chicago. A train of then-new Highliner equipment overshot the 27th Street station. The overshot put the train in another block territory, but the crew backed the train into the 27th Street station. A train of the old IC Pullman cars entered the block with a clear signal and crashed into the Highliner-equipped train at speed resulting a number of casualties and hundreds of injuries. So, you see, overshooting a train can have dangerous consequences and should never be taken lightly.


Overshooting the platform was incidental. It is passing block signal and then backing into the previous block that was the main problem. That is a bad thing to do platform or not.


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## AlanB (Dec 1, 2012)

jis said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Back in 1972, there was a terrible accident on the Illinois Central Railroad's suburban service in Chicago. A train of then-new Highliner equipment overshot the 27th Street station. The overshot put the train in another block territory, but the crew backed the train into the 27th Street station. A train of the old IC Pullman cars entered the block with a clear signal and crashed into the Highliner-equipped train at speed resulting a number of casualties and hundreds of injuries. So, you see, overshooting a train can have dangerous consequences and should never be taken lightly.
> ...


And IIRC, the backup move was made without notifying the dispatcher, who no doubt would not have given permission with the other train trailing right behind.


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## jis (Dec 1, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, that is 7.24 million per day, more than twice the ANNUAL ridership of Amtrak
> ...


Yeah he's a bit off. What Mumbai Suburban carries in 5 days is a bit more than what Amtrak carries in a year in my reckoning, give or take.

Of course it also should be relatively easier to stop more exactly when your top speed ain't that high too 

But frankly, Caltrain's overrun rate seems to be somewhat high when compared to equivalent operations elsewhere in the US. I wonder why that is. Afterall they do not have either snow or leaves to contend with. Is it just the eternal valley fog making for slippery rails or is it just plain carelessness?


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## Blackwolf (Dec 1, 2012)

I feel it is more of the second variety, Jis. I have no way of knowing what the overshoot rate was when Amtrak was providing the crews, but I cannot remember hearing of it happening often. CalTrain's equipment has not changed in quite some time, with the exception of the 'Baby Bullet" trains. The Bombardier double-level cars probably have better braking characteristics than the much older Nippon Gallery cars too, so I have little doubt about it being mechanically influenced. Also, the entire route is flat as a pancake.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 2, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> I feel it is more of the second variety, Jis. I have no way of knowing what the overshoot rate was when Amtrak was providing the crews, but I cannot remember hearing of it happening often. CalTrain's equipment has not changed in quite some time, with the exception of the 'Baby Bullet" trains. The Bombardier double-level cars probably have better braking characteristics than the much older Nippon Gallery cars too, so I have little doubt about it being mechanically influenced. Also, the entire route is flat as a pancake.


I agree with Blackwolf. I started commuting by Caltrain only 2 months back and so far I have already seen three significant platform overshoots on trains I was onboard and on all three occasions it was dry non-foggy weather with clear visibility.

Jis, I agree. I noticed what you explained about location of signals with respect to platform. At all three positions where I saw the platform overshoots, the signal is a hundred meters or so ahead of the platform, so the train overshooting by even one full car length still does not foul the next block. Out of the three incidents, two times the engineer contacted someone (dispatch I believe) and reversed the train back in position, and on one occasion he left it as it was and the conductor opened the first car's door out of platform limits letting passengers get off and on from the ballast.


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## jis (Dec 2, 2012)

I think that if there is a culture of carelessness that is being fostered that is more likely to lead to accidents than one where a culture of scrupulous adherence to operating procedures is fostered.

Now I was merely stating a more narrow proposition that it is highly unlikely that a platform overshoot of a car length is going to ever lead by itself to a "Big One" and I stand by that proposition.

As for what the consequences of overshooting a low speed while stopping, any of those signals in question is concerned one has to know a bit more about them. If they are block signals and are clear then the probability of an accident is zero. If a backup then is done after getting the dispatcher's permission then the possibility of an accident remains to be zero. If the block signal is red then passing it without stopping would be a rule violation in most cases. If it is a home signal protecting an interlocking, again if it was clear then clearly there is no danger of an accident. If a Home signal is passed at danger then it is a rule violation and consequences can be quite severe.

But my wildas$ guess is that none of the signal in question are Home signals. They are all Automatic Block signals, and in any case any overshooting is while stopping, so presumably the train stops after a small overshoot. Ergo..... the statement about the Big One is a bit over the top.

Incidentally, at least under NORAC rules, the status of Automatic Block signals is such that ACSES does not even enforce a full stop at them. It just enforces passage at and continued operation beyond it at Restricting Speed. Full stops are enforced only at Home Signals that are indicating Stop.

But I also agree that in normal operation the Engineers should be well enough trained and disciplined enough to not be overshooting their target stop points all the time.

It should be interesting to see how Caltrain manages to evolve as a true electrified suburban railroad from what is a now a glorified rural line with somewhat heavy traffic. (Now I am ducking)


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 3, 2012)

And the saga continues. It seems Caltrain engineers not only overshoot, but can also undershoot (if that is a valid word) platforms! Today morning as I was waiting to board the train from Mountain View, one guy in electric wheelchair came and placed himself in the huge blue sign on the platform indicating handicapped boarding spot. All Caltrains have the 2nd coach from north as the Handicapped Accessible coach and I am sure the engineer would have noticed a guy in wheelchair at the handicapped spot but he ended up stopping the train such that he was *one full car length* behind where the handicapped access door should have opened! The first car (which is the Bike Car) door came where the handicapped door should have stopped. He did not back the train, instead the wheelchair guy had to maneuver through the crowd and bicycles to reach the handicapped spot and board his wheelchair in.


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## jis (Dec 3, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> And the saga continues. It seems Caltrain engineers not only overshoot, but can also undershoot (if that is a valid word) platforms! Today morning as I was waiting to board the train from Mountain View, one guy in electric wheelchair came and placed himself in the huge blue sign on the platform indicating handicapped boarding spot. All Caltrains have the 2nd coach from north as the Handicapped Accessible coach and I am sure the engineer would have noticed a guy in wheelchair at the handicapped spot but he ended up stopping the train such that he was *one full car length* behind where the handicapped access door should have opened! The first car (which is the Bike Car) door came where the handicapped door should have stopped. He did not back the train, instead the wheelchair guy had to maneuver through the crowd and bicycles to reach the handicapped spot and board his wheelchair in.


Really starting to sound like Caltrain runs a pretty amateur operation! It should not be that hard to spot a train within 10 feet of where it is supposed to stop.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 6, 2012)

And there is no end to this it seems. Saw this tweet today morning on my timeline.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 12, 2012)

Posting this just to keep a track of how often Caltrain overshoots stations.

Today morning southbound *Caltrain 226 skipped stopping at Burlingame* altogether and stopped directly at its next station stop! The conductor announced inside "Sorry guys, we forgot to stop at Burlingame!"

Forgot? Seriously? :blush:

Isn't Caltrain CTC territory? How do engineers overshoot through stations and nobody reminds them? This is getting crazier by the day.


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## jis (Dec 12, 2012)

What does CTC have to do with stopping at stations? Stopping at a wayside stations or not is the train crew's job, not the dispatchers, at least in the way things work in the US.


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## Trogdor (Dec 12, 2012)

Many folks really have no clue how signalling systems work, and what they do (and don't do).

Signals tell the engineer, basically, the condition of the track ahead (whether it's clear or not), what to possibly look out for at the next signal, and (depending on the specific system used) the route the train will take through an interlocking or the speed at which it should proceed through the interlocking.

The rulebook/timetable/special instructions handles other things (such as the speed at which a train should proceed in various locations under various scenarios). Signals (CTC or otherwise) don't tell a train to stop at a station, unless that signal happens to be at that station (which is not the case more ofthen than it is) and displaying a stop indication. This would only be because (depending on the specific situation) the track ahead is occupied, or the dispatcher (in CTC territory) has not established a route in front of that train.

So again, signals do not convey station stop information. Overrunning station stops does not, in and of itself, put the train in danger. Overrunning stop signals can, but that's a different issue (and rarely does one lead to the other; as evidenced by all of the incidents in this thread where trains have missed a stop but there has been no indication that they missed any signals).

It does not excuse the poor performance of Caltrain engineers for not knowing their trips (and the conductors for not reminding them), but let's not confuse one issue with another.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 12, 2012)

Sorry I did not mean to suggest that CTC would have a say in deciding where the train stops. I know how signals work and that the responsibility of stopping the train rests solely with the engineer. My doubt was, if a train does not stop at a station where it is supposed to stop, is there any way the dispatcher would come to know about it (apart from engineer calling in and informing)? Wherever the trains are controlled from, do they have some kind of a display that shows realtime position of all trains and if a train did not stop at a station, would someone paying attention to that notice it? Just curious.


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## Trogdor (Dec 12, 2012)

It's not the dispatcher's job to care about whether or not a train makes its station stops. The dispatcher sets the lineup, and once it's set, they go on to the next train or situation that requires their attention. Their job is to make sure the railroad can run with minimal delays. If a train misses a station stop, it's not the dispatcher's job to babysit and fix it.

CTC displays will tell you that a train is within a signal block, but not where within that signal block it happens to be, nor whether the train is moving or stopped. If stations have cameras hooked up to CCTV in the control center, the dispatcher could see, but the dispatcher's attention isn't supposed to be focused on a video screen, it's to be focused on the railroad display, making sure switches and signals are set.


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## cpamtfan (Dec 13, 2012)

When a train misplaces a train and must make a reverse move, you MUST contact the block operator for permission. You also have to have a qualified employee govern that movement from the rear car.

It is unfair to blame employees without fully knowing the situation. What if an extra list engineer is not quite familiar with the stops and realizes too late to platform the train safetly? Yes, it may not be right that the stop was missed, but I think placing the blame on engineers right away is just unfair.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 13, 2012)

cpamtfan said:


> I think placing the blame on engineers right away is just unfair.


Umm.. then who else is possibly to blame? The engineer is the only guy who has the control over where to stop the train, and if he/she did not do that duty, isn't he/she the only person to blame? Extra list or not, engineer of a train is expected to have 100% situational awareness when at the controls of the train, if he/she lapsed in that duty, he/she is to be blamed for it.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 13, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> cpamtfan said:
> 
> 
> > I think placing the blame on engineers right away is just unfair.
> ...


I gotta agree. Extra list or not, he (or she) should know what stops to make. All it takes is a timetable placed in front of the controls. Who else is to blame? Not the dispatcher. Not the conductor (although he could warn the engineer of upcoming stops, but that's not exactly his job).


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## jis (Dec 13, 2012)

Actually the buck (in the Truman sense) does stop at the Conductor in many ways, on a train.  But the immediate responsibility is that of the Engineer as far as stopping or not goes.


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## AlanB (Dec 13, 2012)

cpamtfan said:


> It is unfair to blame employees without fully knowing the situation. What if an extra list engineer is not quite familiar with the stops and realizes too late to platform the train safetly? Yes, it may not be right that the stop was missed, but I think placing the blame on engineers right away is just unfair.


In order to operate any train in this country that runs on FRA governed tracks, which Caltrain does, both the conductor and the engineer must be qualified for that territory. "Qualified" means that they must know where they are at all times; they must be familiar with where defect detectors are; stations; land marks; etc. A conductor working the coaches must be able to look out the window basically at any time and know where his train is on that line.

So I'm sorry, but no, the engineer has to be familiar with where the stop is. And even if his memory fails him, he's still got the book to remind him.

All that said, I have to wonder if part of the issue here with all these missed stops is the fact that Caltrain runs 3 types of service on the same tracks. An engineer might start out his day working a baby bullet where he skips many of the stops only to work a semi-express the next time where he must make extra stops, but not all stops.

Thinking quickly, I know of no other commuter RR in the US that has such a service pattern. Many offer an express service, but they run express skipping a bunch of stops in row, before going local. It's not the hodge-podge of skip two, stop, skip three, stop, etc that Caltrian has.


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## cpamtfan (Dec 13, 2012)

My wording was not "clear" enough, my bad. The engineer must know his territory and if he doesn't, it's his fault for missing a stop, etc. I was more eluding to what Alan said. Some crews work may work a super local, then a limited stop express. The engineer must know this schedule, but sometimes even the most experienced engineers have to go to the book to check. The conductor is incharge of the train, and I would think he's announcing stops that the engineer should hear (not in a locomotive now). Where are the CalTrain conductors stationed? I'm not familiar with that equipment.


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## BCL (Dec 13, 2012)

cpamtfan said:


> My wording was not "clear" enough, my bad. The engineer must know his territory and if he doesn't, it's his fault for missing a stop, etc. I was more eluding to what Alan said. Some crews work may work a super local, then a limited stop express. The engineer must know this schedule, but sometimes even the most experienced engineers have to go to the book to check. The conductor is incharge of the train, and I would think he's announcing stops that the engineer should hear (not in a locomotive now). Where are the CalTrain conductors stationed? I'm not familiar with that equipment.


They stand in the vestibules, announce the stations, and exit the trains at the stations to check for hazards. There are separate fare inspectors, who check tickets (no punch) or scan Clipper Cards (a multi agency fare card) to see if they've been properly checked in at a Caltrain station. The conductors can also check for tickets, but I think they typically don't.

I remember way back when the conductors and assistant conductors did everything, including selling tickets, punching prepaid tickets, and announcing stops. Now they've primarily gone to fare inspectors with some conductors.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 13, 2012)

This is getting funny. Another day, another overshoot. Today morning southbound *Caltrain #322 overshot Redwood City* by about a quarter mile and had to back up into the station!

No, I am not making up stories, check out Twitter stream with hashtag #Caltrain. Morning commute passengers are livid about the incident and resultant delays.


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## GiantsFan (Dec 25, 2012)

Its because transitamerica took over operations not too long ago ...

They don't seem to know the route yet...


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## AlanB (Dec 26, 2012)

GiantsFan said:


> Its because transitamerica took over operations not too long ago ...
> 
> They don't seem to know the route yet...


And yet, under FRA rules they're not allowed to operate the trains without knowing the route..


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## Paulus (Dec 26, 2012)

Weren't most of the employees retained from Amtrak anyhow?


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 27, 2012)

GiantsFan said:


> Its because transitamerica took over operations not too long ago ...
> 
> They don't seem to know the route yet...


They also don't seem to know to read the "SPOT CAB" boards placed at the platforms for their convenience. Today morning I was on northbound Caltrain 231 sitting a little behind halfway point on the first car and when we stopped at San Carlos, the SPOT CAB board was right outside my window, meaning the engineer had stopped the train around 50-60 feet ahead of where he s expected to stop. No big deal since the train was still within platform limits, but these kind of gaffes on a regular basis is certainly not very professional.


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## cpamtfan (Dec 28, 2012)

That's just nitpicking now.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 28, 2012)

cpamtfan said:


> That's just nitpicking now.


Yes, I said it is no big deal, and it may be just me and my OCD but I see a trained engineer not being able to spot the train at the SPOT board as kinda unprofessional.

Maybe it is because I used to commute daily for six years on a commuter train system in a foreign country where the engineers would stop every single train (and there were over a thousand trains per day, compared to Caltrain's 86 per day) exactly at the SPOT sign, so much that daily commuters would mark their standing spots knowing exactly where each door would come when the train stops. And no, I am not talking about automated subway systems, I am talking about a conventional rail controlled manually by the engineer.


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