# Amtrak's Pioneer



## Bane (Jan 7, 2009)

I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:






Fort Collins BNSF line goes directly through town, and that includes down Mason Street which as you can imagine a drastic speed reduction through town, although this might be slower, it would be stopping by at least 2 more major cities in Colorado then on its prior route.

Any thoughts on this or the train in general?


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## the_traveler (Jan 7, 2009)

I hope the Pioneer will come back someday. But the street running in Fort Collins I think would return it to the original routing through Greeley.

I have only down a street running once - and that was a steam excursion thru Erie, PA on NS track. Amtrak's route thru Erie is on (IIRC) CSX track that has no street running.


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## trainfan (Jan 7, 2009)

Bane said:


> I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did the old Pioneer stop running?

Trainfan


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## PRR 60 (Jan 7, 2009)

trainfan said:


> When did the old Pioneer stop running?
> Trainfan


The last trip was in 1997.


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## Skeena_PG (Mar 14, 2009)

Perhaps if/when the Pioneer is restored, instead of just terminating in SEA, extend it to VAC with the added purpose of providing an overnight service along the Cascades corridor. It would leave PDX eastbound in the AM and arrive PDX westbound in the late PM.


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## AlanB (Mar 15, 2009)

Skeena_PG said:


> Perhaps if/when the Pioneer is restored, instead of just terminating in SEA, extend it to VAC with the added purpose of providing an overnight service along the Cascades corridor. It would leave PDX eastbound in the AM and arrive PDX westbound in the late PM.


Amtrak is already not running a second Cascades frequency, even though everything else is ready to go, because Canadian Customes wants to charge Amtrak for clearing the passengers. Now you want a third train, with still more charges from Customes? :blink:


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## PetalumaLoco (Mar 15, 2009)

Bane said:


> I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean running down this steet? Google Maps.

The Coast Starlight runs down a street in Oakland. How long is the run down Mason?


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## Skeena_PG (Mar 15, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Skeena_PG said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps if/when the Pioneer is restored, instead of just terminating in SEA, extend it to VAC with the added purpose of providing an overnight service along the Cascades corridor. It would leave PDX eastbound in the AM and arrive PDX westbound in the late PM.
> ...


Additional Customs charges would be out of the question if this were to be considered. Many Canadians are quite frankly p***ed that the federal government (not exactly a rail-friendly government, as the PM hails from Calgary, AB, aka HQ for Canadian oil/gas companies) is being unreasonable with the second Cascades run. :angry:


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## wayman (Mar 15, 2009)

Skeena_PG said:


> Additional Customs charges would be out of the question if this were to be considered. Many Canadians are quite frankly p***ed that the federal government (not exactly a rail-friendly government, as the PM hails from Calgary, AB, aka HQ for Canadian oil/gas companies) is being unreasonable with the second Cascades run. :angry:


Note also the parallel: PM Harper is from Calgary, AB, "the largest city and largest CSA in Canada without VIA service" (3rd largest city in Canada; 5th largest census metropolitan area in Canada). John McCain is from Phoenix, AZ, "the largest city in America without Amtrak service" (5th largest city in America). And neither one of them likes passenger rail. Go figure.

(Phoenix is part of the 13th largest Statistical Metropolitan Area in America, which does technically have rail service (Maricopa), even if it isn't particularly convenient to Phoenix; the largest SMA in America which is truly absolutely without rail service is Las Vegas, 30th largest.)


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## jis (Mar 15, 2009)

Skeena_PG said:


> Perhaps if/when the Pioneer is restored, instead of just terminating in SEA, extend it to VAC with the added purpose of providing an overnight service along the Cascades corridor. It would leave PDX eastbound in the AM and arrive PDX westbound in the late PM.


While there could be an overnight train along the Cascade Corridor if someone steps up to fund such, I have great difficulty visualizing an Amtrak core system LD cross country train originating and terminating in a Canadian City. Just won't happen. It will mean setting up a maintenance facility in VAC for the equipment, which is fundamentally different from anything that VIA uses, which I consider to be highly unlikely, when such a facility already exists in SEA. Just not cost effective at all. And all this leaving aside the minor problem of Canadian Customs' obduracy.


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## Cascadia (Mar 16, 2009)

jis said:


> While there could be an overnight train along the Cascade Corridor if someone steps up to fund such, I have great difficulty visualizing an Amtrak core system LD cross country train originating and terminating in a Canadian City. Just won;t happen. It will mean setting up a maintenance facility in VAC for the equipment, which is fundamentally different from anything that VIA uses, which I consider to be highly unlikely, when such a facility already exists in SEA. Just not cost effective at all. And all this leaving aside the minor problem of Canadian Customs' obduracy.


Right now the 510 sits in Vancouver in the station slot for international passengers all day, and when they ever get things straightened out so the 517 makes it to Vancouver instead of Bellingham, it will sit in the station all night.

So if a third train were to serve Vancouver at all, they'd have to move it out of the way and park it somewhere else in the yard. I'm sure it could be done but it sounds like another headache. If they can't even figure out the customs end of it don't hold your breath while they figure out where to park an extra train.


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## RailFanLNK (Mar 16, 2009)

Does anyone have any old timetables of the Pioneer? I would love to see what cities it served when it ran.


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## JayPea (Mar 16, 2009)

I don't have a timetable for the Pioneer but I do have the next best thing: An old copy of _Rail Ventures_.

Here goes:

Salt Lake City

Ogden, UT

Pocatello, ID

Shoshone, ID

Boise, ID

Nampa. ID

Ontario, OR

Baker City, OR

LaGrande, OR

Pendleton, OR

Hinkle, OR (which is basically a large railroad yard in the middle of nowhere)

The Dalles, OR

Hood River, OR

Portland

and from there it followed the Coast Starlight route into Seattle.

This was as of 1990.


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## MrFSS (Mar 16, 2009)




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## Philzy (Mar 20, 2009)

MrFSS said:


>


Wow, I know I'm a young'n but that is just fascinating... It's so interesting to read the Carrier Notice "...The ICC has ordered this operation to continue untill March 31, 1979..." I've never seen anything like that, quite neat. Thank you for sharing that.

As a child i would hoard amtrak time tables, my mother still to this day has no idea why, but I came across a few when visiting home a few years ago and was instantly glued to them for a few hours. :lol:


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## creddick (Mar 20, 2009)

When I rode the Pioneer in 1991, it split from the CZ in Denver and went up through Wyoming. It did not go to Salt Lake. We rode from Chicago to Seattle. Took the EB back to Chicago.


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## jim692 (Mar 28, 2009)

In summer 1985 I took the Pioneer from Salt Lake north thru Idaho & Portland to Seattle like the posted schedule here.


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## saxman (Mar 28, 2009)

Just curious, but according to that timetable it looked like you had to change trains in Ogden. It was not thru car service from Chicago. Also neat to see it originated in Salt Lake City. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't later Amtrak run the California Zephyr, Pioneer, and Desert Wind as one train? Pioneer splitting off in Denver and Desert splitting in Salt Lake?


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## Chris J. (Mar 30, 2009)

Bane said:


> I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking at google maps; run a train Cheyenne - Fort Collins - Denver. I'm not sure there's a demand for it, or if it's even possible with the tracks that exist, but i think that would mean that there would then only be one of the 48 contiguous states without an Amtrak service.


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## heavesrock (Mar 30, 2009)

How About Denver-Cheyenne-Casper-Billings?


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## creddick (Mar 30, 2009)

saxman66 said:


> Just curious, but according to that timetable it looked like you had to change trains in Ogden. It was not thru car service from Chicago. Also neat to see it originated in Salt Lake City. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't later Amtrak run the California Zephyr, Pioneer, and Desert Wind as one train? Pioneer splitting off in Denver and Desert splitting in Salt Lake?


That was the case in 1991 when I rode the Pioneer to Seattle.


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## Chris J. (Mar 31, 2009)

Philzy said:


> Wow, I know I'm a young'n but that is just fascinating... It's so interesting to read the Carrier Notice "...The ICC has ordered this operation to continue untill March 31, 1979..." I've never seen anything like that, quite neat. Thank you for sharing that.
> 
> As a child i would hoard amtrak time tables, my mother still to this day has no idea why, but I came across a few when visiting home a few years ago and was instantly glued to them for a few hours. :lol:


I was interested to see the distances in Km there - I thought that the US only really used miles.


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## AlanB (Mar 31, 2009)

Chris J. said:


> Philzy said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, I know I'm a young'n but that is just fascinating... It's so interesting to read the Carrier Notice "...The ICC has ordered this operation to continue untill March 31, 1979..." I've never seen anything like that, quite neat. Thank you for sharing that.
> ...


Most likely that TT was put out during the time period where the US was going to go Metric. Many things during that time were done with both systems for several years, until we decided that it was just too hard to convert.


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## henryj (Mar 31, 2009)

jackal said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > sunchaser said:
> ...


Hey that would be great. We would then have a train that combined the former City of St. Louis, Portland Rose, Colorado Eagle, City of Portland all into one train. You could route it from Chicago to KC(St. Louis people could connect on the Mules) and La Junta on the BNSF tacked onto the SWC up the front range to Colorado Springs and Denver and north to Wyoming and accross on the UP to Ogden then up to Portland. You could have cars that split off at Pocatello for Yellowstone on the Yellowstone Special(or a thruway bus). If you tacked onto the back of the SWC you could be in Denver by say 2:00PM. That would put you into Pocatello the next morning early for the connection to Yellowstone and Sun Valley and into Portland that evening. Now if we could only get that train from Texas to Colorado going to connect with all this. Here is the schedule. All you have to do is figure how to get up the joint line between all those coal trains.

PIONEER

Pioneer Pioneer

7:00 AM	lv	PORTLAND(PT)	arr	8:30 PM

11:00 PM	arr	POCATELLO	lv	6:15 AM

11:15 PM	lv	POCATELLO	arr	6:00 AM

2:15 AM	arr	OGDEN lv	3:00 AM

2:45 AM	lv	OGDEN arr	2:30 AM

11:30 AM	arr	CHEYENNE(BOWIE)	lv	4:20 PM

11:35 AM	lv	CHEYENNE(BOWIE)	arr	4:15 PM

1:30 PM	arr	DENVER lv	2:30 PM

3:15 PM	lv	DENVER arr	1:15 PM

5:00 PM	arr	COLORADO SPRINGS	lv	11:45 AM

5:15 PM	lv	COLORADO SPRINGS	arr	11:30 AM

6:15 PM	arr	PUEBLO lv	10:30 AM

6:30 PM	lv	PUEBLO arr	10:15 AM

8:00 PM	arr	LAJUNTA lv	8:45 AM

8:23 PM	lv	LAJUNTA(MT)	arr	8:15 AM

7:25 AM	arr	KANSAS CITY	lv	10:55 PM

7:45 AM	lv	KANSAS CITY	arr	10:11 PM

3:20 PM	arr	CHICAGO(CT)	lv	3:15 PM


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## Navy 118 (Mar 31, 2009)

things are looking up! I remember riding the CZ back in the late 90's before the death of the desert wind and pioneer, and I believe we had all three train sets within our consist. Two diners, three lounge cars. The PA system was alive with the various announcements from the various train crews. Boy was she a big train!


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## Guest_Anne_* (Jun 22, 2009)

Hello!

Our family will be traveling from Sacramento to Chicago next week on the California Zephyr -- our first time on a long distance train. We booked our family bedroom months ago. We just found out that we will be re-routed through Wyoming along the old Pioneer route due to track work between Salt Lake City and Denver.

We are a bit disappointed that we will miss the scenery, tunnels, etc. over that stretch. Can anyone tell us what to expect along the new route?

Thanks in advance!

Anne


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 22, 2009)

Guest_Anne_* said:


> Hello!
> Our family will be traveling from Sacramento to Chicago next week on the California Zephyr -- our first time on a long distance train. We booked our family bedroom months ago. We just found out that we will be re-routed through Wyoming along the old Pioneer route due to track work between Salt Lake City and Denver.
> 
> We are a bit disappointed that we will miss the scenery, tunnels, etc. over that stretch. Can anyone tell us what to expect along the new route?
> ...


Well according to "AMSPEAK" you will see a sharp contrast to the usual Colorado scenery! :lol: Ive been in Wyoming several times, admittadly not on the CZ and there wasnt a whole lot there except

miles and miles and miles of ,well, flat nothing!  Yellowstone Park of course is a different thing but the

train doesnt go there of course!!!! :angry: On your return perhaps you can ride the "good" route of the CZ,

if not perhaps rebook and ride the EB out of PDX or SEA(well its hard to get rooms in the summer,the most

popular train in the summer!  The trip is still the thing, enjoy the journey!   BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sunchaser (Jun 22, 2009)

Guest_Anne_* said:


> Hello!
> Our family will be traveling from Sacramento to Chicago next week on the California Zephyr -- our first time on a long distance train. We booked our family bedroom months ago. We just found out that we will be re-routed through Wyoming along the old Pioneer route due to track work between Salt Lake City and Denver.
> 
> We are a bit disappointed that we will miss the scenery, tunnels, etc. over that stretch. Can anyone tell us what to expect along the new route?
> ...



Hi Anne,

This was discussed fairly recently- if you Click here & here , you will find the info.


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## Guest_Anne_* (Jun 22, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> Guest_Anne_* said:
> 
> 
> > Hello!
> ...


Thank you very much!


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## sunchaser (Jun 22, 2009)

You're welcome! Welcome to the board!

I encourage you to ask any questions you might have, there are many here that are willing & can answer them for you!

Enjoy your trip, and please don't forget to post a trip report when you come back!


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## RT Torgesen (Jun 23, 2009)

I have heard the Pioneer will travel through Montpelier and soda Springs on the Old Oregon Shortline. Is this true?


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 23, 2009)

RT Torgesen said:


> I have heard the Pioneer will travel through Montpelier and soda Springs on the Old Oregon Shortline. Is this true?


No, it isn't. The truth is that Congress authorized a **** load of money so that Amtrak could hand them a sheet of paper, perhaps complete with a short powerpoint presentation, about how they would go about restarting service approximating a route including the general areas of Ogden, Boise, Portland, and Seattle, and what ridership and costs would be associated with it.

That's it. No route of this nature is starting any time soon. Possibly not ever. We aren't within a million miles of being able to tell you what cities it hypothetically might serve if it ever got beyond the "Lets fund a study to make it look like we are doing something" stage.


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## sunchaser (Jun 24, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> No, it isn't. The truth is that Congress authorized a **** load of money so that Amtrak could hand them a sheet of paper, perhaps complete with a short powerpoint presentation, about how they would go about restarting service approximating a route including the general areas of Ogden, Boise, Portland, and Seattle, and what ridership and costs would be associated with it.
> That's it. No route of this nature is starting any time soon. Possibly not ever. We aren't within a million miles of being able to tell you what cities it hypothetically might serve if it ever got beyond the "Lets fund a study to make it look like we are doing something" stage.


That's really too bad. I was just looking at the old schedule again this morning, & if it was running, it would cutt our travel time in half! I'm assuming the price would a good deal lower as well. But that would mean no Zephyr or Starlight ride, unless we included them as a loop!!!


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## MrFSS (Jul 20, 2009)

Another article *HERE*.


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## Tony (Jul 20, 2009)

> In the meantime, city councils along the route are voicing their support for Pioneer’s return, passing resolutions outlining what they hope to gain from renewed access to passenger rail.
> In Sun Valley, the council passed a measure earlier this month saying the return of passenger train service through southern Idaho would increase accessibility and attract more visitors to the area, even though the nearest stop to Sun Valley would be in Shoshone, about 50 miles south.


Just how many of these city councils included MONEY in their resolutions; money to be used if the $20M per year deficit returns along with the train.


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## Superliner (Jul 20, 2009)

Ah, the days of the Pioneer! I rode this train several times back in the late 80s. From Iowa to Oregon and back. Loved every bit of it. The train would split and join the California Zephyr in Salt Lake City back then. In SLC, thru-cars, usually a coach/baggage & a sleeper, would connect to an already waiting single F40, Diner/Lounge, & Coach. During peak travel periods, a second coach would be included. The consist of 25/26 was 5 cars between SLC & SEA and vice versa with a single F40, Diner/Lounge, Coach, Coach, Coach/Baggage, & Sleeping Car. If memory serves me correctly, the fueling point eastbound for 26 was Nampa, ID. Oh, how I miss this train!


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## como (Jul 20, 2009)

Bane said:


> I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The BNSF line goes through Lafayette, Louisville, Boulder, Longmont, Berthoud and Loveland. It would be a great commuter line (and will probably become one soon) but it is not a direct route to Cheyenne. People living south of Longmont are within 45 minutes by express bus from Denver Union Station so the benefit of service on that line may not be that great.


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## como (Jul 20, 2009)

heavesrock said:


> How About Denver-Cheyenne-Casper-Billings?


Burlington Timetable June 1, 1967

Train 29 (last run was August 1967)

Denver 8:30 p.m.

Broomfield

Louisville

Boulder

Longmont

Berthoud

Loveland

Ft. Collins

Wellington

Cheyenne, WY

Federal

Horse Creek

Farthing

Chugwater

Wheatland

Wendover

Glendo

Orin

Douglas

Glenrock

Casper

Bishop

Bucknum

Powder River

Arminto

Lysite

Bonneville

Thermopolis

Worland

Manderson

Basin

Greybull

Lovell

Cowley

Deaver

Frannie

East Bridger, MT

Fromberg

Silesia

Laurel

Billings 4:00 p.m.

I grew up in Boulder and tried to convince my dad that it would be fun to take the train to Billings. He didn't agree.


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## MikeM (Jul 20, 2009)

como said:


> The BNSF line goes through Lafayette, Louisville, Boulder, Longmont, Berthoud and Loveland. It would be a great commuter line (and will probably become one soon) but it is not a direct route to Cheyenne. People living south of Longmont are within 45 minutes by express bus from Denver Union Station so the benefit of service on that line may not be that great.


Trains newswire reports on July 16th that the Denver Regional Transportation District (RTD) has reached an agreement with the BNSF to purchase the part of this line from Denver Union Station to 72nd street in Broomfield. This will be used for commuter rail services. The agreement earns BNSF $93.7M for the purchase plus an additional $32M to cover some line and yard relocations. It's expected the deal will close by next January.

Not sure what impact this would have on any Amtrak routing (although the line not only has street running in Fort Collins, it also runs down the street in part of Longmont CO), but it'd be fun to see trains along this route. There is an existing C&S depot in Boulder currently owned and used by a lumber yard, and Longmont has an original stone station in use by the railroad, albeit with poor parking and crowded in by the neighboring turkey processing plant. Suspect this would be an interesting, but slow way to get to Cheyenne.


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## DaveKCMO (Jul 20, 2009)

wouldn't it be possible to run three branches from SLC?

SLC-LAX

SLC-PDX

SLC-EMY


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## JAChooChoo (Jul 20, 2009)

DaveKCMO said:


> wouldn't it be possible to run three branches from SLC?
> SLC-LAX was the Desert Wind from October 28, 1979 to May 10, 1997.
> 
> SLC-PDX was the Pioneer from October 28, 1979 to May 10, 1997.
> ...


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## zephyr17 (Jul 21, 2009)

JAChooChoo said:


> DaveKCMO said:
> 
> 
> > wouldn't it be possible to run three branches from SLC?
> ...


Pioneer was actually split out at Denver and ran via Wyoming to Ogden the last few years of Pioneer operation. That happened sometime in the early 90s. Reason was to improve departure and arrival times in Seattle due to the much shorter running time across Wyoming. It didn't hurt that it restored service across Wyoming after having lost it when the SFZ was re-routed on the D&RGW to become the CZ in 1983.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 21, 2009)

zephyr17 said:


> JAChooChoo said:
> 
> 
> > DaveKCMO said:
> ...


Also, the split was at Ogden until the D&RGW reroute of 5/6 in 1983. From 79-83, SLC was only served by the Desert Wind, not by the 5/6.


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## como (Jul 21, 2009)

MikeM said:


> como said:
> 
> 
> > The BNSF line goes through Lafayette, Louisville, Boulder, Longmont, Berthoud and Loveland. It would be a great commuter line (and will probably become one soon) but it is not a direct route to Cheyenne. People living south of Longmont are within 45 minutes by express bus from Denver Union Station so the benefit of service on that line may not be that great.
> ...


Mike, The station in Boulder that you refer to was built in 1959 and is on The C&S mainline. The old station that was built in the 1890's was abandoned when the tracks were removed from downtown Boulder around 1960. The station was moved to 30th St. in the 1970's and was used by the Jaycees. Here is the plan for the area around the station that will include space for commuter rail. www.bouldercolorado.gov/files/tvap_att_d.pdf


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## DET63 (Jul 21, 2009)

DaveKCMO said:


> wouldn't it be possible to run three branches from SLC?
> SLC-LAX
> 
> SLC-PDX
> ...


SLC-LAX was _The Desert Wind_

SLC-PDX-SEA was _The Pioneer_

SLC-EMY (actually, Oakland, at least when the train still went to the 16th Street station prior to the Loma Prieta Earthquake) was _The California Zephyr_

During the later years of _The Pioneer_ and _The Desert Wind_, I believe those trains only ran three or four times a week. I'm not sure which days they ran, or if the CZ also ran only a few days a week. The justification for eliminating the LA and PDX-SEA trains was, IIRC, to free up the Superliner equipment for daily service on the CZ (and perhaps other LD trains).


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## evan E (Jul 23, 2010)

Philzy said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


thank you!


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## evan E (Jul 23, 2010)

Proposed stops

S.L.C.

Ogden

Pocatello

Mountain Home, ID

Boise

Nampa-Caldwell, ID

Ontario, OR

La Grande, OR

Pendleton, OR

Hermiston, OR

Pasco-Kenniwick

Yakima

Ellensburg, WA

either Auburn or Kent, WA

Seattle

It should leave S.L.C sometime in the mid-afternoon, get to Boise in the evening, and arrive in Seattle sometime in the late afternoon-early evening the next day


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## zephyr17 (Jul 23, 2010)

saxman said:


> Just curious, but according to that timetable it looked like you had to change trains in Ogden. It was not thru car service from Chicago. Also neat to see it originated in Salt Lake City. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't later Amtrak run the California Zephyr, Pioneer, and Desert Wind as one train? Pioneer splitting off in Denver and Desert splitting in Salt Lake?


The operation of the Pioneer changed several times over it's lifetime. 1979 was pretty early in it's life. It started as a connecting train without through cars of any sort -- it wasn't a Superliner then. Then it did carry through cars, although I don't know it that coincided with rerouting the San Francisco Zephyr off the UP and onto the D&RGW in 1983, making the California Zephyr. For many years, the Pioneer and Desert Wind through cars were carried to Salt Lake City, and the train was split there, with both the Desert Wind and the Pioneer originating in Salt Lake. Later, don't recall the date, but it was after 1990 because it didn't happen until after I moved to Seattle, they changed the Pioneer split from Salt Lake to Denver. This was partly because the times to/from Seattle were bad, very early and very late, due to increased running time over the D&RGW versus the UP. Also because it restored service across Wyoming. That was the last incarnation of the Pioneer.

Nice to see a little bit of history with the Rio Grande Zephyr (sail on, Silver Girl) on that timetable. Be glad you didn't see many of those ICC notices. I remember a time when timetables were chock full of them (late 60s).


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## zephyr17 (Jul 23, 2010)

evan E said:


> Proposed stops
> 
> S.L.C.
> 
> ...


There are several routing and schedule options that resulted from the PRIIA study conducted by Amtrak. While the cost estimates are thought by many to be inflated to some degree or another, the routing and schedule options presented seem pretty complete and well thought out. They include both Denver/Wyoming and Salt Lake options, and a variety of scheduling options, including a long, San Antonio type layover.

It is available on Amtrak's website at

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249200496429&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_PioneerServiceStudy.pdf


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## Evan (Dec 21, 2010)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Bane said:
> 
> 
> > I was looking at how the new Amtrak Bill requires an investigation into the old Pioneer path from Denver to Seattle. I live in Fort Collins, it is between Cheyenne and Denver. The old Pioneer stopped in Greeley, which is 45 minutes directly to the east of Fort Collins. Now if went down the old Colorado and Southern Tracks (now BNSF). The Pioneer could serve Fort Collins (home of CSU), Boulder (home of CU) or take the UP tracks from Fort Collins to Longmont making a more direct route to Denver. There is one major problem:
> ...


First quote: I was planning a train that went through your town stopping after Cheyenne: Cheyenne, Ft. Collins, Greeley, Longmont, Boulder, Denver.


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## henryj (Dec 21, 2010)

The problem with hooking these three trains together is the CZ is never on time which means the other two trains would also be affected. When you put Amtrak's on time record up against all three trains none of them would be able to maintain schedule. The best deal for the so called Pioneer is a separate train using the UP route west after Denver and the cutoff up to Pocatello and finally Portland. I would not even try and run it into Seattle, just use the Cascades connections. The Desert wind would work best as a train that served Las Vegas with continuing service to SLC. None should offer a gauranteed connection to the CZ or each other.


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## MeisterEric (Dec 21, 2010)

Personally, i would love the Pioneer route -

I currently live a little bit north of Seattle, and i have relatives in Salt lake City & Denver.

A train that directly connects all 3 of these cities would be awesome!!

But, alas, from that report that was linked to earler (http://www.amtrak.co...erviceStudy.pdf)

K. Timeline

Of the many actions that would have to be taken before reinstitution of Pioneer

service, the one with the longest identified projected lead time is the design,

*procurement and construction of new Superliner bi‐level passenger rail cars. This*

*would **require approximately four years from the date on which funding is made*

*available*.

L. Conclusion and Next Steps

Restoration of the Pioneer would enhance Amtrak’s route network and produce public

benefits, but would require significant expenditures for initial capital costs and

ongoing operating costs not covered by fare box revenues. While PRIIA recognizes the

importance of Amtrak’s existing long distance routes, it does not provide funding for

capital or operating expenses associated with expanding service beyond current

levels. Amtrak supports strengthening and improving the national network of long

distance trains but will need significant additional funding to expand operations

beyond today’s current services.

Thus, Amtrak recommends that federal and state policymakers determine if intercity

passenger rail service along the former Pioneer route should be reintroduced and, if

so, that they identify the preferred option for service restoration and provide the

required levels of capital and operating funding to Amtrak. Upon such a decision,

Amtrak will aggressively work with Federal and state partners to restore the Pioneer

service.


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