# Assaulted by Amtrak Conductor



## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

I was assaulted by an Amtrak conductor after taking a trip to Chicago. The Conductor was extremely rude to both passengers and fellow employees the entire trip, threatening to throw people off or leave them where ever we were. The train was 2 hours late, with absolutely no information passed to the passengers until an Amtrak employee went and talked to them. They told him that the intercom was not working well, he told them then you need to be out there letting people know because the entire train was worried about what was going on, the conductor in question then yelled at him for telling him how to do his job.

After we finally got to Chicago we got off the train and saw the same rude conductor, we said "there goes the ******" he then ran up to us and threatined to call the police, we laughed at him and told him to go ahead and call the police. At that point he swore at us and then pushed me.

I called the police on HIM right away, filed a Amtrak complaint and a police report, the Amtrak super intendant refunded my money for the return trip we had not taken yet but we were informed we would need to contact Customer Relations to get a refund for the trip that we were assaulted on.

Customer Relations told me that "refunds are not allowed for employee conduct". Amtrak clearly does not care about it's passengers safety or well being or repeat business if they allow their employees to assault paying customers without so much as a refund.


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## AlanB (Jun 18, 2011)

First, let me make it clear that this site is not operated by Amtrak. So there is nothing that we can do at all to help you.

That said, Amtrak's failure to provide you with a refund is not an indication of their lack of concern about how an employee acted. Yes, a refund may make you feel better.

But giving you money back does nothing to help correct the employee's behavior. Reporting that employee's behaving and filing reports is the only thing that can help to correct the employee's behavior, or eventually get him/her fired. Giving refunds doesn't correct employee behavior!


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## jmbgeg (Jun 18, 2011)

mwineland said:


> I was assaulted by an Amtrak conductor after taking a trip to Chicago. The Conductor was extremely rude to both passengers and fellow employees the entire trip, threatening to throw people off or leave them where ever we were. The train was 2 hours late, with absolutely no information passed to the passengers until an Amtrak employee went and talked to them. They told him that the intercom was not working well, he told them then you need to be out there letting people know because the entire train was worried about what was going on, the conductor in question then yelled at him for telling him how to do his job.
> 
> After we finally got to Chicago we got off the train and saw the same rude conductor, we said "there goes the ******" he then ran up to us and threatined to call the police, we laughed at him and told him to go ahead and call the police. At that point he swore at us and then pushed me.
> 
> ...


As Alan stated, wrong forum.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 18, 2011)

It's hard to know what to say with just one side of the story, but if you feel you have been seriously wronged you can always take it up with your credit card company or take Amtrak to small claims court.


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## Tumbleweed (Jun 18, 2011)

If you have witnesses to an assault on you, press charges......


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

This may not be a site operated by Amtrak, however it is about Amtrak. I honestly am not expecting anything from this forum other than to share my story about how Amtrak treated me on my first and only trip with them.


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

Tumbleweed said:


> If you have witnesses to an assault on you, press charges......


There are witnesses and they do have it on camera. Unfortunately to press criminal charges I would need to be able to return to Chicago regularly to appear in court and can not afford to do so, we only went there for my fiance's 21st birthday. I may still file a lawsuit regarding this but I have not decided yet.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 18, 2011)

deleted...........


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## AlanB (Jun 18, 2011)

mwineland said:


> This may not be a site operated by Amtrak, however it is about Amtrak. I honestly am not expecting anything from this forum other than to share my story about how Amtrak treated me on my first and only trip with them.


You are most welcome to share your story here.  I wasn't trying to imply otherwise, but we do get many people posting complaints who do think that we are Amtrak and can therefore do something for them. So I just wanted to make the fact that we're not Amtrak clear to you.

That said; if they've got it on camera, I'd say that so long as you've filed an official complaint with Amtrak, that employee will at a minimum be headed for retraining and if he has other complaints in his employee folder may well be headed for the unemployment line. Especially if the other witnesses are also on the official complaint filed with Amtrak.

But again, just to be clear, lack of refund to you doesn't indicate that Amtrak isn't dealing with the situation.


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

AlanB said:


> You are most welcome to share your story here.  I wasn't trying to imply otherwise, but we do get many people posting complaints who do think that we are Amtrak and can therefore do something for them. So I just wanted to make the fact that we're not Amtrak clear to you.


I appreciate that, I honestly had assumed it was as well given the name. I understand that they may still be looking into it and not giving me my money back does not mean they are not. However I still feel offended by their response. If a waiter in a restaurant pushed me after I had finished my meal, there is no way I would have given them my money. Nobody should pay hundreds of dollars to be physically assaulted by the company they paid. Again however that is just my personal opinion on the matter.


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## HotlantaAl (Jun 18, 2011)

Can I ask what train you were on going into Chicago?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 18, 2011)

If nobody is going to be pressing charges then why not post the video on youtube? If all you want is to do is disseminate your story that should get a lot more attention than anything you post on here. If you're never going to ride Amtrak again then Amtrak Unlimited isn't going to be able to do much to help you.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 18, 2011)

Post the video on youtube people do that all the time with police brutality videos and sometimes they do make it to the news on tv.


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## dlagrua (Jun 18, 2011)

If in fact a conductor assaulted you as claim, he should be immediately terminated. Post the video to You Tube and send the link to Amtrak. If it was all the conductors fault, it is almost certain that he will be fired. The question that I have is what transpired beforehand to make the conductor so angry? There can be no justifcation in anyone pushing you but something tells me that we are not hearing the whole story.


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Post the video on youtube people do that all the time with police brutality videos and sometimes they do make it to the news on tv.


We were on train 365, it is actually Amtrak that has the video. I have a form to request the police report, I will see if I can get the video but that may require a court order, I will try though.


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## daveyb99 (Jun 18, 2011)

mwineland said:


> After we finally got to Chicago we got off the train and saw the same rude conductor, we said "there goes the ******" he then ran up to us and threatined to call the police, we laughed at him and told him to go ahead and call the police. At that point he swore at us and then pushed me.


Sorry, I am going the other way on this one:

I am going to guess by your inclusion of the ****** instead of words that YOU first use foul language. I sure hope you told AMTRAK Police of your use of foul language, and THAT is what instigated this event. Had you said nothing, the event would not have occurred. And while that does not give justification to physical contact, it sure was not a wise decision on your part. but I guess it made you feel good to mouth-off....

You should re-title you post: I Swore At The Conductor


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> Sorry, I am going the other way on this one:
> 
> I am going to guess by your inclusion of the ****** instead of words that YOU first use foul language. I sure hope you told AMTRAK Police of your use of foul language, and THAT is what instigated this event. Had you said nothing, the event would not have occurred. And while that does not give justification to physical contact, it sure was not a wise decision on your part. but I guess it made you feel good to mouth-off....
> 
> You should re-title you post: I Swore At The Conductor


He swore at us as well, if he had treated us with respect we would have treated him with respect, there were other Amtrak employees were quite nice and they were complaining to us about him as well. Regardless of what happened before or after, the bottom line was that he put his hands on me. If somebody swears at me and I put my hands on them, I go to jail not them.

Edited to include this:

Yes I did inform the police and amtrak of exactly what we said to them, because as I stated regardless of what happened before the incident, as soon as he put his hands on me he had committed assault. The police and Super Intendant of Amtrak agreed.


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## George B (Jun 18, 2011)

mwineland said:


> I was assaulted by an Amtrak conductor after taking a trip to Chicago. The Conductor was extremely rude to both passengers and fellow employees the entire trip, threatening to throw people off or leave them where ever we were. The train was 2 hours late, with absolutely no information passed to the passengers until an Amtrak employee went and talked to them. They told him that the intercom was not working well, he told them then you need to be out there letting people know because the entire train was worried about what was going on, the conductor in question then yelled at him for telling him how to do his job.
> 
> After we finally got to Chicago we got off the train and saw the same rude conductor, we said "there goes the ******" he then ran up to us and threatined to call the police, we laughed at him and told him to go ahead and call the police. At that point he swore at us and then pushed me.
> 
> ...


Sure sounds like you were being antagonistic towards the conductor. Without a police report and a proper police investigation, it is not worth exploring this any further on this forum as it is just hearsay on your part.

Can I suggest to the administrator that this topic be closed as it will just go down hill fast?


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## roomette (Jun 18, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Giving refunds doesn't correct employee behavior!


Giving travel vouchers doesn't correct faulty plumbing either, but Amtrak does it all the time. It may a legal matter. A refund might be interpreted as a bribe for silence in court.


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## ColdRain&Snow (Jun 18, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> mwineland said:
> 
> 
> > After we finally got to Chicago we got off the train and saw the same rude conductor, we said "there goes the ******" he then ran up to us and threatined to call the police, we laughed at him and told him to go ahead and call the police. At that point he swore at us and then pushed me.
> ...


Inherent in the responsibilities of every Amtrak conductor is to maintain professionalism at all times while on the job, profanity and insolent comments notwithstanding. If this conductor abandoned his responsibility of being a consummate railroad professional, he has failed himself, his employer, and his fellow colleagues in the industry.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 18, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> mwineland said:
> 
> 
> > After we finally got to Chicago we got off the train and saw the same rude conductor, we said "there goes the ******" he then ran up to us and threatined to call the police, we laughed at him and told him to go ahead and call the police. At that point he swore at us and then pushed me.
> ...


The OP said the conductor swore at passengers and fellow co workers and harrassing other passengers for no reason. Quit standing up for bad employees or are you one of them?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 18, 2011)

Folks, before we start turning on each other let's keep in mind that there are some things we simply cannot know (objectively) without having been there. Even if a video is eventually posted folks like Andrew Breitbart and James O'Keefe have done their best to prove videos are by no means inherently objective. All we can do is weigh the evidence and make up our own minds. Taking either side is a leap of faith. No need to start a yet another fight over any of this.


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> Folks, before we start turning on each other let's keep in mind that there are some things we simply cannot know (objectively) without having been there. Even if a video is eventually posted folks like Andrew Breitbart and James O'Keefe have done their best to prove videos are by no means inherently objective. All we can do is weigh the evidence and make up our own minds. Taking either side is a leap of faith. No need to start a yet another fight over any of this.


I agree, there is no need for any of that I just wanted to share my story with everyone, I just filed a complaint with the BBB as well.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 18, 2011)

Let me urge you to do TWO things:

1) CALL Amtrak @ 1800-USA-RAIL, ask "Julie" to Connect you with Customer Relations, when the Agent gets on Explain the Circumstances and ASK for Compensation (It will be a Voucher for Future Travel, NOT CASH), IF you get a Run-Around Ask to Speak to a supervisor and Repeat the Above!

2) Write A Letter, Return Receipt, to the President of Amtraks Office, his Name is Joe Boardman , 60 Mass Ave,, Washington, DC 20009. Explain the Details, I promise You you WILL Hear from his Office!

There is NEVER a Reason for Conductors to Assualt Passengers or Use Foul or Profane Language, Self Defense would be the only Reason to put their Hands on a Passenger!

You may want to talk with an Attorney to get Advice, but IMO you should Receive Satisfaction from CR! Don't let this Cretin Off the Hook, Sounds like "IT" needs to Join the Unemployment Rolls IF the Details are as you say! I agree there are always two sides to every Story but with Witnesses You have a Leg Up! Good Luck!


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Let me urge you to do TWO things:
> 
> 1) CALL Amtrak @ 1800-USA-RAIL, ask "Julie" to Connect you with Customer Relations, when the Agent gets on Explain the Circumstances and ASK for Compensation (It will be a Voucher for Future Travel, NOT CASH), IF you get a Run-Around Ask to Speak to a supervisor and Repeat the Above!


I did that the same day multiple times, they repeatedly told me they do not have supervisors that I could speak with and refused to transfer me to anyone else. I will be writing the corporate office soon, thank you for the advice.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 18, 2011)

Isn´t in illegal to refuse someone to talk to a supervisor? Sounds like a amtrak coverup.


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## Ryan (Jun 18, 2011)

I'd love to hear the other side of the story.

An employee being rude, doesn't justify you verbally harassing them. Nor does that harassment justify "assault".

There's two sides to every story and it sounds like side of this one are a bad apple, but I'll reserve judgement without the whole story.


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm not excusing the conductor's behavior, no Amtrak employee should be assaulting passengers, but perhaps calling somebody an obscene name doesn't exactly serve to cool down the situation. Perhaps you and your friends should have kept your thoughts to yourselves. Go ahead and file police reports, get a lawyer, cry to your mommy, etc. Without both sides to this story (if it's even true), this whole thread is going nowhere.


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

MikefromCrete said:


> I'm not excusing the conductor's behavior, no Amtrak employee should be assaulting passengers, but perhaps calling somebody an obscene name doesn't exactly serve to cool down the situation. Perhaps you and your friends should have kept your thoughts to yourselves. Go ahead and file police reports, get a lawyer, cry to your mommy, etc. Without both sides to this story (if it's even true), this whole thread is going nowhere.


You are correct, telling the conductor how we felt did not cool the situation in any way. I am not denying this at all, like I said we made the police and amtrak officials very aware of this. When somebody that works with the public is that rude and unprofessional around the people they are serving I will always speak my mind, I have that right.

As far as both sides of the story, I welcome the conductor to respond with his side of the story. We did not get a chance to see him or speak with him after they removed him from the train, I honestly would like to know why he thought he had the right to put his hands on me.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 18, 2011)

What exactly did the conductor do? I mean you said he "pushed" you? What does that even mean?

I believe your story, I just think the term "assault" might be a bit of an exaggeration.


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## Ryan (Jun 18, 2011)

mwineland said:


> When somebody that works with the public is that rude and unprofessional around the people they are serving I will always speak my mind, I have that right.


Not really - you should do some reading into _Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire_ if you're going to talk about what your rights are.


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## mwineland (Jun 18, 2011)

TVRM610 said:


> What exactly did the conductor do? I mean you said he "pushed" you? What does that even mean?
> 
> I believe your story, I just think the term "assault" might be a bit of an exaggeration.


I am not a lawyer so I googled the definitions and "battery" would be the correct term:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/battery

The Act The act must result in one of two forms of contact. Causing any physical harm or injury to the victim—such as a cut, a burn, or a bullet wound—could constitute battery, but actual injury is not required. Even though there is no apparent bruise following harmful contact, the defendant can still be guilty of battery; occurrence of a physical illness subsequent to the contact may also be actionable. *The second type of contact that may constitute battery causes no actual physical harm but is, instead, offensive or insulting to the victim. Examples include spitting in someone's face or offensively touching someone against his or her will.*

He leaned towards me, looked at my brother-in-law and then back and me and told us we can both F off, and then with 1 hand fingers extended pushed my chest which I did find extremely offensive. I am a pretty big guy and I was not harmed, nor did I feel that he could harm me, however I was extremely offended that he dared put his hands on me.


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## leemell (Jun 18, 2011)

TVRM610 said:


> What exactly did the conductor do? I mean you said he "pushed" you? What does that even mean?
> 
> I believe your story, I just think the term "assault" might be a bit of an exaggeration.


Any touching by someone of another without consent and without regard to the physical consequences constitutes battery in many jurisdictions. Assault generally has a broader definition and usually includes battery.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 18, 2011)

I would find a way to come up with the money to travel back to chicago to make sure he goes to jail. The conductors life was not in danger so this is not a case of self defense. That conductor needs anger management classes.Now watch the union will say the conductor was justified in his actions and will get off Scott free.


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## tp49 (Jun 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> mwineland said:
> 
> 
> > When somebody that works with the public is that rude and unprofessional around the people they are serving I will always speak my mind, I have that right.
> ...


The case you cite is not relevant to this situation. Fact situations are wildly different.


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## Ryan (Jun 18, 2011)

I wasn't talking about this case in particular. He made a blanket statement that he had the right to speak his mind, which has some limitations that he clearly isn't aware of.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 18, 2011)

The conductor was out of line. He's paid to be there. He needs to take the higher path. Based on the events described he should be terminated.


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## RRrich (Jun 18, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> The conductor was out of line. He's paid to be there. He needs to take the higher path. Based on the events described he should be terminated.


Based on what we read the conductor was wrong and should be disciplined But what is his side of the story?

I would like to see this thread closed until we get the other side of the story.


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## rrdude (Jun 18, 2011)

I don't get why at least two posters asked that this thread be closed?

What the heck are you afraid of? If you don't like it, don't read it.

THIS is a perfect example of what SHOULD be posted on forums like this. Yeah, most of us regulars like Amtrak, and would give our left *** for a cab ride, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to read about the good, the bad, and the "maybe it happened, maybe it didn't".

Close threads like this, and I certainly won't be visiting as much....ESPECIALLY when the poster SOUGHT out some avenue, AFTER contacting Amtrak, to post his comments on.

I don't want Amtrak, or passenger rail travel to be assailed without justification. And I don't think it is. And IF it is, the truth will come out.

Close the thread. No, let's "burn the books" (or Nooks) first. Then tell people what they can, and cannot say in public. Sheesh.


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## bobnabq (Jun 18, 2011)

From my limited understanding, I believe one can file a small claims case against a company in any state where they do business. 

That may be easier than filing a criminal case that may require trips back and forth.

 

Right or wrong, we are only hearing one side of the incident ~ so it's difficult for anyone who was not involved to respond knowledgeably. 

Other than batting it around for discussion, this site won't accomplish anything.

 

Write a detailed letter with names, time, place to :

 

Amtrak Customer Relations

60 Massachusetts Ave NE 

Washington, DC 20002

 

Phone :

 Amtrak at 800-USA-RAIL


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## TVRM610 (Jun 18, 2011)

rrdude said:


> I don't get why at least two posters asked that this thread be closed?
> 
> What the heck are you afraid of? If you don't like it, don't read it.
> 
> ...


Agreed!

I would also like to compliment the original poster for sticking around and answering our questions.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 19, 2011)

rrdude said:


> I don't get why at least two posters asked that this thread be closed?
> 
> What the heck are you afraid of? If you don't like it, don't read it.
> 
> ...


AMEN to that!!! Things like this need to be posted. If you don´t like it don´t read it. Just like like radio don´t like whats on one station change it to another station till you find something you like. I also thank the poster for coming back and not being one of those one time posters who post a thread like this and then never return.


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## VentureForth (Jun 19, 2011)

George B said:


> mwineland said:
> 
> 
> > I was assaulted by an Amtrak conductor after taking a trip to Chicago. The Conductor was extremely rude to both passengers and fellow employees the entire trip, threatening to throw people off or leave them where ever we were. The train was 2 hours late, with absolutely no information passed to the passengers until an Amtrak employee went and talked to them. They told him that the intercom was not working well, he told them then you need to be out there letting people know because the entire train was worried about what was going on, the conductor in question then yelled at him for telling him how to do his job.
> ...


Umm, NO?

This topic has every but of right to be here as any other complaint or poor service story!

I don't care if the OP told the conductor that he was a *** and his dog was a ***. There is no right EVER for someone who had the authority and responsibility of a conductor to lose his temper and commit assault. We aren't talking OBS here - this is someone who can cause a great financial pain to someone by throwing them off a train into the hands of police because s/he is in a bad mood.

Yes, there are two sides to every story and the OP admitted to being as frustrated as other passengers and crew and perhaps let his temper get the better of him, verbally. A professional conductor would call police or for assistance (he was in a station) before laying a finger on this dude. Just ask Rodney King. Why can't we all just get along?

I, for one, am interested in the outcome of this.


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## VentureForth (Jun 19, 2011)

mwineland said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not excusing the conductor's behavior, no Amtrak employee should be assaulting passengers, but perhaps calling somebody an obscene name doesn't exactly serve to cool down the situation. Perhaps you and your friends should have kept your thoughts to yourselves. Go ahead and file police reports, get a lawyer, cry to your mommy, etc. Without both sides to this story (if it's even true), this whole thread is going nowhere.
> ...


You may have that right, but you also have the right to bear the consequences. 

Removed him from the train? I thought you were in the station. Perhaps in the station and still on the train?


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## Ryan (Jun 19, 2011)

His OP says that they were already off the train. Something doesn't add up.



> After we finally got to Chicago* we got off the train and saw the same rude conductor,* we said "there goes the ******" he then ran up to us and threatined to call the police, we laughed at him and told him to go ahead and call the police. At that point he swore at us and then pushed me.


Edit: There's a difference between locking a thread and removing it or staying that it never should have been started in the first place. It's a great thread, but there's really not a whole lot of value to allowing pages and pages of discussion based on an internally inconsistent half of the story.


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## VentureForth (Jun 19, 2011)

Thank goodness you aren't a moderator, then. 

The judgement on the value of a topic is determined by the members, not by an individual. If this thread digresses into _nothing_ more than hateful banter, I'm sure the mods rollo do what is right. Taking about the merits of this particular incident is, in fact, appropriate.

There are many guests who come here and never post, looking for advise on how to handle situations and to read what they can expect from Amtrak.


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## dlagrua (Jun 19, 2011)

ColdRain&Snow said:


> daveyb99 said:
> 
> 
> > mwineland said:
> ...


Handling oneself in a professional manner is the ultimate responsibility of an Amtrak conductor. If you want supoort from this group show us the video and end the argument. While I do not doubt this story, it is not fair to condemn anyone without presenting proof.


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## HotlantaAl (Jun 19, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> Handling oneself in a professional manner is the ultimate responsibility of an Amtrak conductor. If you want supoort from this group show us the video and end the argument. While I do not doubt this story, it is not fair to condemn anyone without presenting proof.


So, how far do you want to take this? If I have any complaint about an Amtrak employee, I first must have proof before I post on this forum? A forum that is called: "Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum."

Well, I propose a name change then


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## Ryan (Jun 19, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> Thank goodness you aren't a moderator, then.


Thank goodness that I wasn't advocating to have it locked at this point in time. I was mostly responding to this statement...


VentureForth said:


> This topic has every but of right to be here as any other complaint or poor service story!


...to point out that there's a difference between locking a thread and it never existing in the first place.



HotlantaAl said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Handling oneself in a professional manner is the ultimate responsibility of an Amtrak conductor. If you want supoort from this group show us the video and end the argument. While I do not doubt this story, it is not fair to condemn anyone without presenting proof.
> ...


You're welcome to post anything that you want. The difference is that if you want to be taken seriously, you should be able to back up whatever claims you make. The jury is still out on this one.


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## VentureForth (Jun 19, 2011)

The video is obviously not his. Just because there is video didn't mean it was his to publicly disseminate.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 19, 2011)

Correct Amtrak has the video right now im guessing from the stations security cameras so it might take a court order for the OP to get it. If the conductor felt that the OP was unruly he would have called for backup. In this case the OP just made a comment oh look there goes hitler type thing and the conductor overheard and flipped his top and pushed the OP. that is battery by the law. He has witnessses but he does not have the money to keep returning back to chicago for court if he was to press charges aganst the conductor.


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## me_little_me (Jun 19, 2011)

roomette said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Giving refunds doesn't correct employee behavior!
> ...


If Amtrak had offered something without being asked, it MIGHT be considered a bribe given that the traveler had a sleazy lawyer who wanted to play it up but if it is done at the request of the traveler, then no way would that be considered a bribe.


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## jis (Jun 19, 2011)

HotlantaAl said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Handling oneself in a professional manner is the ultimate responsibility of an Amtrak conductor. If you want supoort from this group show us the video and end the argument. While I do not doubt this story, it is not fair to condemn anyone without presenting proof.
> ...


You may of course post anything, but without additional supporting evidence you may not be taken seriously. No big deal either way.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jun 19, 2011)

lets just say, 90% of passengers don't know difference between a Conductor or a car attendent.



> we said "there goes the ******" he then ran up to us and threatined to call the police


I take exeption to fact that OP can cuss at said conductor but gets upset when shoved ?

again if you got witnesses go to police, we are just discussing a one sided argument here, that may or may not have happened.

and I for one have serious doubts. :hi: :hi:


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## mwineland (Jun 19, 2011)

Dutchrailnut said:


> lets just say, 90% of passengers don't know difference between a Conductor or a car attendent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is fine to have doubts, I am just some guy on a forum sharing my experience and I am not quick to believe such things either. He made it very clear that he was the conductor in a "I'm the conductor I can do anything I want and you better not mess with me" kind of way several times. There is a large difference between words and battery. Not once did the police state what I did was illegal, however what he did was. I may have crossed a line by telling him how I felt, however he decided to cross that same line by cussing at us and then took it far beyond that level by putting his hands on me which he had no right to do.


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## AlanB (Jun 19, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> Yes, there are two sides to every story and the OP admitted to being as frustrated as other passengers and crew and perhaps let his temper get the better of him, verbally. A professional conductor would call police or for assistance (he was in a station) before laying a finger on this dude.


While I understand the point you were trying to make and fully acknowledge that I'm taking this slightly out of context here, let me say the following.

I realize that the incident is reported to have taken place on the platforms at Chicago, but had this taken place on a train things would have been a bit different. Additionally, I'll grant that a push/shove doesn't constitute a valid way to restrain someone, unless it was to knock the person to the ground, but on board the train a conductor would be fully within their rights to place their hands on someone that they feel needs to be restrained and it would not be considered assault.

On the other hand, hauling off and smacking the conductor is a sure fire way to find one's self locked up in the Federal pen.


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## bobnabq (Jun 19, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Isn´t it illegal to refuse someone to talk to a supervisor? Sounds like a amtrak coverup.


Illegal ? I doubt there's a law on the books covering that.


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## bobnabq (Jun 19, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> The OP said the conductor swore at passengers and fellow co workers and harassing other passengers for no reason.


Yes, that's _his_ observation.	What is the employees' viewpoint?

And why are some folks here beating each other over the head with an unsubstantiated complaint?

Were I as irate at this passenger, I'd spend my time pursuing a resolution ~ not venting here, where it will accomplish nothing.


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## AlanB (Jun 19, 2011)

I would have figured that by virtue of the fact that I was the first person to even respond to mwineland that it would be rather clear that this topic exists with the consent of the staff.

But since the point keeps getting raised; this forum exists to allow people to ask questions about Amtrak and to discuss Amtrak. That includes the good, the bad, the verified, and the unverified. The staff will remove off topic comments, off color comments, and frankly I'd be much happier if we could keep references to Hitler out of the conversation as there is a huge difference between ordering the murders of millions of people and shoving someone on a train platform in Chicago. The two things don't even come close in magnitude as mwineland is still alive and able to talk about things; thankfully!

I also find it interesting that all too often in the past when we've had guests make a controversial post about Amtrak, that one of the most common complaints from people is that they're guests who never come back to follow up with things. That excuse invariably leads to most people simply dismissing the entire complaint. And in one really big case that those who've been here for a while will remember, that being the luggage incident in Birmingham on the Crescent, I later received information from someone at Amtrak that confirmed that the lady was telling the truth. This despite the many detractors who were certain she was lying.

Yes she probably embellished things a bit, and I'm not suggesting that mwineland did that, but again it was confirmed by me via a clandestine source that an internal investigation found that 2 employees in BHM were out of line and they were disciplined for their action. And the poor lady was offered compensation by Amtrak for the incident. That source by the way is also a long time member here who at that time worked for Amtrak in a rather powerful position that allowed him to get an investigation started.

In this case, we not only are NOT dealing with a guest poster, we are dealing with a member who continues to return and respond to questions & comments. That despite some very negative comments. Now I'm not suggesting that the fact that mwineland took the time to register automatically guarantees that he's telling the truth or that he hasn't embellished things a bit, or for that matter that as would be normal in the heat of the moment that his recollection of the entire incident is 100% correct. But I do think that the fact that he is a member and that he continues to return to answer the questions put forth earns him some consideration and politeness at least.

Yes, we don't have the other side either and we may never see the video. I'm guessing that short of a trial, it will never see the light of day. Especially if Amtrak does indeed take any action against the employee, releasing the video outside of a court order would probably be considered a violation of his rights. I'm sure that the Union would have to take issue with it, even if they feel that the conductor was wrong, they'll have to oppose its release.

So all that said; please, let's get back to simply discussing the incident and stop worrying about closing the topic.


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## jis (Jun 19, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Isn´t in illegal to refuse someone to talk to a supervisor?


Quite unlikely.



> Sounds like a amtrak coverup.


Coverup? Surely you jest? We haven't even heard boo from Amtrak or the Conductor yet. All that we have done is endless venting from both sides based on one yet to be independently verified report.

Note that I am not suggesting that it is impossible that the Conductor was at fault. All that I am saying is that we don't have enough corroborated evidence to reach any definitive conclusion yet.


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## AlanB (Jun 19, 2011)

bobnabq said:


> Were I as irate at this passenger, I'd spend my time pursuing a resolution ~ not venting here, where it will accomplish nothing.


Actually, as any good psychiatrist will tell you, talking about your problems is very helpful! 

And who knows, sometimes good advice even pops up that could be helpful to him in dealing with Amtrak regarding this incident. Like for example the suggestion to write to the President of Amtrak Joseph Boardman.


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## roomette (Jun 19, 2011)

I'd like to be on the look out for this conductor.

What is the Amtrak Unlimited policy regarding identification of this conductor. Perhaps the OP can post his/her name. First and last? First only? Not at all?

Negative comments were made about another Amtrak employee, by name, here.


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## mwineland (Jun 19, 2011)

roomette said:


> I'd like to be on the look out for this conductor.
> 
> What is the Amtrak Unlimited policy regarding identification of this conductor. Perhaps the OP can post his/her name. First and last? First only? Not at all?
> 
> Negative comments were made about another Amtrak employee, by name, here.


Admin, would this be a problem if I posted the name on their badge?


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## bobnabq (Jun 19, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Actually, as any good psychiatrist will tell you, talking about your problems is very helpful!


 

You'd think I'd know that.

I worked a psych hospital in Hartford for five years.

(No ~ really. _Honest_ I _worked_ there.)  hboy:


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## leemell (Jun 19, 2011)

bobnabq said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > Isn´t it illegal to refuse someone to talk to a supervisor? Sounds like a amtrak coverup.
> ...


I can't be definitive, but my memory tells me there is a law on the books of either the federal level or in at least California that requires that a supervisor be made available if requested by the customer.


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 19, 2011)

mwineland said:


> roomette said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to be on the look out for this conductor.
> ...


I'm not a lawyer, and not well versed in internet law, just an old retired newspaper guy, but since the conductor has not been arrested and charged with assault (at least I think that's the case, Mr. Wineland seems not to have actually done anything about this except whine about it on this site). then both the poster and Amtrak Unlimited would be opening themselves up to a libel suit by posting his name. If the conductor is arrested and charged, then use of his name would be fine.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 19, 2011)

Send that conductor to a RE-training program LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPBr3Up8OXY


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## MrFSS (Jun 19, 2011)

mwineland said:


> roomette said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to be on the look out for this conductor.
> ...




Please* don't* post that info until the other Admins and I have a chance to discuss it.

Thanks!!


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## TVRM610 (Jun 19, 2011)

Why would it be a problem to post the guys name? There have been many employee names discussed, both for positive and negative experiences and it had never been an issue.


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## mwineland (Jun 19, 2011)

MrFSS said:


> mwineland said:
> 
> 
> > roomette said:
> ...


No problem just let me know.


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## Ryan (Jun 19, 2011)

mwineland said:


> ]It is fine to have doubts, I am just some guy on a forum sharing my experience and I am not quick to believe such things either.


That's a great attitude to have - I certainly think that you could have handled thing better on the train, but I've got to commend you on handling yourself in this thread. Thanks for sticking around and being a good sport.


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## AlanB (Jun 19, 2011)

mwineland said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > mwineland said:
> ...



First name only, please.


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## leemell (Jun 19, 2011)

TVRM610 said:


> Why would it be a problem to post the guys name? There have been many employee names discussed, both for positive and negative experiences and it had never been an issue.


See post number 66 in this thread for an excellent reason.


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## roomette (Jun 19, 2011)

Is there a difference between posting this conductor's name and Joseph H. Boardman's?

What is the official policy regarding naming names of Amtrak employees here?


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## jdcnosse (Jun 19, 2011)

roomette said:


> Is there a difference between posting this conductor's name and Joseph H. Boardman's?
> 
> What is the official policy regarding naming names of Amtrak employees here?


As was stated above, posting his name could result in unwanted action towards the forum, unless charges are pressed. I don't see any problem in posting a first name only, as that could still be very vague, but it really is up to the Admins to decide. Joseph H. Boardman is the president of Amtrak, and therefore I would assume as a somewhat public figure, it's okay to post his. I think the main thing is right now it is all speculation as we only have a complaint from the OP, and no charges were pressed yet.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 19, 2011)

roomette said:


> Is there a difference between posting this conductor's name and Joseph H. Boardman's?
> 
> What is the official policy regarding naming names of Amtrak employees here?


In the past, members have been able to name, describe, and post pictures of employees when describing both positive and negative experiences. If the Moderators want to change the rules, that's fine, but it's never been a problem before.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2011)

TVRM610 said:


> roomette said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a difference between posting this conductor's name and Joseph H. Boardman's?
> ...


There is a BIG difference between calling out an employee for poor performance versus accusing someone in a public forum of breaking the law. Let’s have some sense, here.


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## leemell (Jun 19, 2011)

roomette said:


> Is there a difference between posting this conductor's name and Joseph H. Boardman's?
> 
> What is the official policy regarding naming names of Amtrak employees here?


The key to this problem is that there is an accusation to a criminal act, that is quite beyond just bad service or rude behavior.


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## AlanB (Jun 19, 2011)

TVRM610 said:


> roomette said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a difference between posting this conductor's name and Joseph H. Boardman's?
> ...


Actually we've always frowned on posting the last names of employees, especially bad ones. We've been a bit more lax with the names of the good ones.

Not saying that one hasn't slipped past us, but in general that's been the rule.


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## George B (Jun 19, 2011)

TVRM610 said:


> roomette said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a difference between posting this conductor's name and Joseph H. Boardman's?
> ...


Had he just come on here and complained about the conductor pushing him, then there might not be any heartburn about posting a name. But since he keeps talking about legal action and using words like “assault” and “battery”, then you are directly accusing someone of breaking the law, and the circumstances change. This is the reason why the topic should be abandoned or closed until there is legal closure to the matter.

Talk all you want about poor performance on the job. You start discussing legal matters in a public forum when you are an involved party, and you could be asking for trouble you or the site owners don’t want. Libel, defamation, and slander laws (like them or not) are there to protect people from unfair and unfounded accusation unless proven by fact, admittance, or in a court. If this conductor did in fact break the law and were to face legal charges at some point, public defamation in a forum like this just creates loopholes that lawyers can use to have cases thrown out, and you have now deprived a victim from seeking justice. The site owner has the ultimate say, but I strongly suggest this topic be put aside for now.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 19, 2011)

Plus any amtrak lawyers visiting this forum could go after us.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Plus any amtrak lawyers visiting this forum could go after us.


Just wait until the OP goes to court over this and has what he posted here thrown back in his face under cross-examination. The OP may stand behind his words here, but things change when it is a lawyer twisting your words around and using them against you.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 19, 2011)

AlanB said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > roomette said:
> ...


That's true... I don't recall seeing many (if any) full names. Mostly just first names. Well except for J. Boardman and David Gunn. ha.

After reading George B's post I understand how this is a different situation..


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 19, 2011)

George B said:


> Libel, defamation, and slander laws (like them or not) are there to protect people from unfair and unfounded accusation unless proven by fact, admittance, or in a court.


Yet another silly myth that our good friends Andrew Breitbart and James O'Keefe have proven completely inaccurate.


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## Ryan (Jun 19, 2011)

Well they're there to protect some people - just not all of them, it seems.


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## jis (Jun 19, 2011)

Notwithstanding all that, the forum owners still need to protect themselves from getting involved in defamation and libel suits inadvertently. They tend to be expensive and could effectively lead to the discontinuance of the forum, which would overall be a bad thing. My advice would be to do everything necessary to avoid that eventuality.


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## oldtimer (Jun 19, 2011)

jis said:


> Notwithstanding all that, the forum owners still need to protect themselves from getting involved in defamation and libel suits inadvertently. They tend to be expensive and could effectively lead to the discontinuance of the forum, which would overall be a bad thing. My advice would be to do everything necessary to avoid that eventuality.


I agree totally with this post.

I had served in my railroad career as a union representative for 25+ years and held several offices in that time too many to list. If the incident occurred as alleged by the OP and it was reported I am positive that Amtrak would start the process of a formal investigation into the incident

at the least. They may also have the Amtrak PD investigate and if it were found to be a valid complaint they would proceed with criminal charges against the conductor involved. If action is taken by the Amt. PD I strongly believe from past experience that the complainant would be afforded transportation, food and lodging for the complainant to testify. If the Amtrak PD does proceed with criminal charges and the court system does not find the person guilty Amtrak will still proceed with a formal investigation. ( I have had this happen and Amtrak does not believe in double jeopardy.) Most Amtrak formal investigations are basically "kangaroo courts", The prosecutor, judge, and the person that assesses the discipline are all Amtrak management employees. The complainant may be called upon to testify over the telephone. (What happened to the right to face your accuser?) I speak from experience of handling approximately 1,000 cases. The vast majority of these have been attendance cases which are basically indefensible. I can only remember approximately 10 of these cases where charges were not sustained, or dismissed by the hearing officer. There are 2 levels of appeal in the company after the trial before the case goes to any impartial review. I can tell you that with the exception of attendance and Rule G (drug and alcohol) cases most cases that I have personally handled have had the discipline mitigated at some level. I have had to represent all employees at the best of my ability as unions have a duty of representation that they can be held accountable for.

I can assure the OP if his claim was justifiable that it will be investigated and the individual will be held accountable.

PS I also know that the union rep. for the conductors union (UTU) in Chicago is a frequent reader and a guest poster here


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 20, 2011)

In the US libel is not limited to truth or fiction. Rather, to be found guilty of libel an author or publicist would have to make intentionally misleading claims they themselves believed to be baseless. But how exactly do you prove what a defendant believed when they made a given claim? It's rather difficult to know what someone truly believed at any given point in time unless they alone volunteer that information. You cannot force anyone to self-incriminate so you're essentially at the mercy of the defendant's willingness to contradict themselves. And that, my friends, in the primary reason so many people get away with even the most blatant of lies.


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## jis (Jun 21, 2011)

But either way one can go bankrupt keeping the lawyers engaged to make all this happen or not. So best is to stay away from situations where such might become necessary if at all possible.


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