# Coast Starlight 1/30/09



## sldispatcher (Jan 30, 2009)

Don't know how successful I'll be, but I am going to try and file a trip report as the journey unfolds.

First time on overnight Amtrak in 30 years.

Love trains and an avid model railroader...trying to break the wife in on train travel.

We are in 14300 ? Room E

I like to write fully detailed reports...so hopefully I won't bore you guys (and gals).

DJC


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## the_traveler (Jan 30, 2009)

Write away! It won't bore us, the more detailed the better. Although *WE* may have been on that particular trip, it is interesting to hear of *YOUR* experiences.

BTW - Room/train #'s are always 4 digits (EX: 1430), with the 1st 2 digits the train number (14) and the last 2 digits the position of the car from the diner (30). Some trains start with the 1st sleeper as "0" and some start with "1". And Room E is right in the middle of the car, and is considered by many to be the most desirable!


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jan 30, 2009)

Looking forward to the report as *I* haven't ridden yet and would love to know your thoughts on it


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## sldispatcher (Feb 1, 2009)

TRIP REPORT: Departure Day 1/30/09

Well, due to time constraints, I'll post in sections.

We stayed at the Wilshire Grand Hotel. I think it was quite adequate and for downtown...nice price (about 130) for the level of service and safety. A little dated, but staff was very helpful. It was a 5 minute/10 dollar cab ride over to the station. A California Pizza Kitchen and Morton's of Chicago are within a 60 second walk along with a nice mall. I believe the subway is right there as well..so you could actually train over to Union Station. Cab ride is 50 dollars from LAX.

I was so excited that I got up at 430am! I had all of my scanner frequencies programmed (wouldn't take an Amtrak trip without it) and my new HD camera ready (hopefully will get those up to YouTube soon).

We arrived to the wonderful Union Station on a clear blue day at 845am. The air was still crisp. It was our first time there and my parents and wife were duly impressed.

The TRAXX bar is 20 steps in as soon as you get there. You'll still have to walk though the main waiting area (like that was a real pain!  ). People in all sorts of dress and situation were milling about and sitting in the big chairs at Union Station. I figure there were 20 people waiting in the TRAXX lounge. We were warmly greeted and names taken off of a list and asked to have a seat, etc. Coast Starlight info books (not expensively made, but informative enough) were on the small tables. My wife was really starting to enjoy the whole experience!

I left with my dad to get tickets at an automated machine. The ticket machines were not well marked. They sold all sorts of tickets at these machines. The actual QuikTix (or whatever they are) machines are past the staffed ticket windows. It's a shame that someone is not equipped to do those at the TRAXX Lounge, but that is no big deal.

After we got the tickets, we walked down the concourse and up to the station tracks to see the action. If you are a railfan of any kind, I would suggest arriving even earlier and watching some of the action on the platform. Multiple, multiple trains with simultaneous arrivals/departures. On that note, Metrolink was the worst dispatching we had the whole trip.

We went back to the lounge area and waited for just a few moments before a redcap offered to take us to the train via cart. (TAKE that option!) Don't be stingy and be prepared to offer the 5 dollar tip! The conductor and assistant conductor (Matt) came along to collect tickets and never asked for ID which is a nice change from airline travel.

We were the first to the train! That was after we had a quick tour to the new part of Union Station. It was fun going up the long ramp and the train being right there before us!

Our attendant, Sean, was pleasant and greeted us upon our arrival.

As I knew our room and location we climbed right on and into the compartments. My wife was quite shocked over the lack of size over the room although I had tried to warn her ahead of time. She wasn't upset, just reality is always different from imagination. She quickly made her nest.

Of note, we did not check our luggage and left it downstairs in the holding compartment. I did not have any worries about the luggage down there for the duration of the trip.


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## sldispatcher (Feb 1, 2009)

DEPARTURE DAY: Continued

We had rooms E & D on this trip on car 1430.

I need to say that the load on this trip was quite low. Onboard personnel stated that from New Years to middle of Feb. is the low season on the Starlight.

We were the only 2 Bedrooms occupied upon departure with no more than 5 of the roomettes filled. The Family Bedroom remained empty the entire trip. The H (handicapped bedroom) was occupied. We picked up one additional Bedroom couple along the way...and a couple more roommettes on and off..but I'm not sure of that count.

There was only one additional sleeper on this trip and it did not look very crowded at all.

After boarding, we took a quick tour of the Parlour car and dining car. My Dad, wife and I went to the front of the train and took a little video of our lead unit, #179, with several departures/arrivals on other platforms.

We settled into our car for just a moment. I then encouraged our small band of rail barons to go back to the Parlour Car and post up. We took 4 chairs and waited for our on-time departure.

Over the scanner I heard the call from the conductor "Highball 14"...away we went.

Anouncements in the PPC (Pacific Parlour Car) were barely audible. That may have been specific to that car as announcements were quite audible and clear in our sleeper. However, I never could get the in room audio to pick up the overhead announcements.

At any rate, we glided right out of Union Station and out to the concrete jungles of LA.

We had commented so many times about how glamorous and wonderful the golden age of railroading must have been in that station. We had good speed leaving LA, but got pinned numerous times by Metrolink dispatching. I was amazed at how close some people live by those tracks. The LSA announced dining car reservation taking. Note: PPC persons got asked first on every portion of the trip regarding dining car reservations.

Having looked at Google maps, I knew we would climb out of the basin via a U-turn and a series of tunnels. Loved it!

Heading west we passed numerous farms and crops as well as nurseries. Wonderful start. By this time, we were already in the dining car. I had the angus burger and it was quite acceptable. The ladies had the panini special. Again, all was acceptable. Amtrak is not gourmet. If you are expecting that, look elsewhere. If they are not going to use china, the heavy duty "Amtrak" emblazoned plasticware was quite acceptable.

**Begin political sidebar (read past if you don't want to see).

I'm a died-in-the-wool conservative republican that is very pro-rail. I'm a conservationist, not an environmentalist. I consider environmentalists to worship the environment and act on impulse and emotion. I don't think that there is any doubt that Amtrak and rail is considered to be a Democrat issue. With that said, why in the world you wouldn't use washable China on the train as opposed to all of that plastic is far beyond me.

**End political sidebar.

As the coast came into view in Santa Barbara, the trip became more delightful with every mile covered......


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## hello (Feb 2, 2009)

Enjoy reading your comments -- thank you!


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## WhoozOn1st (Feb 2, 2009)

sldispatcher said:


> **Begin political sidebar (read past if you don't want to see).I'm a died-in-the-wool conservative republican that is very pro-rail. I'm a conservationist, not an environmentalist. I consider environmentalists to worship the environment and act on impulse and emotion. I don't think that there is any doubt that Amtrak and rail is considered to be a Democrat issue. With that said, why in the world you wouldn't use washable China on the train as opposed to all of that plastic is far beyond me.
> 
> **End political sidebar.


As a dyed-in-the-wool progressive I maintain that there is nothing impulsive or emotional about wanting to CONSERVE the planet. It's a matter of survival. Not for us - we'll deal with it - but for future generations. After almost a decade of ideological denial and wilfull ignorance, I'm glad to see a change of direction in favor of true conservatism. Conserve, not squander and pillage for profit.

People and politicians calling themselves conservatives these days are really nothing of the sort. Right wing radicals bent on destruction. We've seen what happens when people running the government don't believe in government. Disaster.

Dispatcher opened the door for this rant.

Continue to have a fine trip!


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## jackal (Feb 2, 2009)

Wonderful detail! Thanks for posting!

A couple of points you brought up:

*The in-room audio has its own controls. Perhaps you weren't tuned to channel 1, which is the PA channel. (I don't know what the other channels are/were used for--perhaps in years past, there were different music selections to be had.) I know this because while my sleeper attendant was explaining the room's features to me, the conductor began an announcement, and he promptly reached over and tuned the PA from channel 1 to channel 2 to cut off the PA.

*The single-use plastic plateware was, as far as I know, brought about due to staffing cuts which prevented the on-board crews from being able to wash dishes. Still, you'd think that used on-board plates and cutlery could be saved up and washed by a ground-based staff at the train's terminals.

*Dining in the PPCs has a bit more of a gourmet flair. If you're looking for a nicer experience and food that's got a bit more character, try dining in the PPC next time. The menu is more limited (two dishes on each meal's menu), but the quality is very good.

Look forward to reading more! If you continued to at least PRB, you passed by my old childhood home!


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## jackal (Feb 2, 2009)

WhoozOn1st said:


> Dispatcher opened the door for this rant.


Er, I rather thought you just like to take the opportunity to bash in doors and then claim that they were opened for you!  :lol:


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## WhoozOn1st (Feb 2, 2009)

jackal said:


> Er, I rather thought you just like to take the opportunity to bash in doors and then claim that they were opened for you


That too.


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## sldispatcher (Feb 2, 2009)

DAY 1 - Coast and more

Coming back from the dining car, there were a few people eating in the PPC. I'll address this in detail with my last post, but yes, we did eat both a breakfast and a lunch there. Again, it was okay....but.......(more on that later)

At any rate, we posted up in our PPC chairs for the continued ride up the coast.

The sky was a brilliant blue with nary a cloud in the sky for the entire day. Leaving SLO, we were seated and ready for the wine tasting. I had not read much about this portion of the trip, but the climb out of SLO is truly a scenic highlight on this trip and is not to be missed. Right side of the car is the place to be...but anywhere in the PPC is grand.

I'll stop here to comment on the PPC in general.

I'm not a nitpicker, but there were a few stains on curtains, etc. Overall, not bad. The big badie was the less than clean shape of the windows. It shouldn't even be an option. The train doesn't get into LAX or SEA station without having a thorough cleaning of the WINDOWS. Period. A scenic car on a train touted for the scenery with a promotion of seeing the sights should be presented with a little more pride. HOWEVER, it did not diminish MY experience to a level of disgust or shock. Afterall, it is a railroad environment. Again, my final post will deal with several of these issues in an "opinion" segment.

Back to the wine tasting. It was actually quite good and performed admirably by the PPC attendant, Greg. He free poured into actual glasses. I was also happy that the cheese was something more than just chunks of cheddar. $5 for sleeping car passengers, $10 for coach. I personally think AMTRAK should charge $10 for the tasting and upgrade the cheese offering to a fancier cheese tray with fruit, nuts, and artisinal cheeses. If one is paying 700 dollars for the bedroom, $10 more isn't going to kill them. The wine tasting was popular the first day. However, Greg mentioned that during the summer the whole car is often needed for the tasting because of so many people. There is no way he should keep up with that many. Seems like it would better serve everyone simply to run it twice...but again, I digress. He's got to turn over the car for the evening meal service, so I'm sure he doesn't have much time.

The dining car was never "full" at any point during our trip. Again, it was a light load as far as sleepers were concerned. In fact, our sleeper would be empty save for one roomette couple after portland!

There were quite a few slow orders over the course of the day and we eventually lost 30 minutes of time.

I was shocked by the complete lack of freight on the line. I recall meeting one, maybe 2 freight trains the entire day. I would assume that is due to the continued track maintenance blitz that was ongoing. The rails along the coast line were for the most part a bit rough..but I swear I could tell where sections had been worked on / graded/ replaced.

Speaking of which, I had forgotten just how quiet the bedrooms really are. Overall, they are more quiet than some hotel rooms I've stayed in.

We stayed up late enough to watch the arrival/departure in Emeryville. I found the 5 or 10 minutes in San Jose to be enough to get my bath. The water pressure was great and plenty of warm water. Just a very tight space!

Just as we were leaving San Jose, I heard the Engineer ask for permission to use the Coast Sub from the dispatcher. That required us to stop to get a track warrant. Was a great ride through the marshes in the moonlight. I was glad we went that way instead of the other route which seemed like it would have taken us through the city.

I enjoyed the brief street running in Oakland as well. Off to bed after Emeryville..which is a post in and of itself.

BTW, I found a video on youtube that I believe is our actual train running in LA. you can see it



Anyway...I'll report more shortly.


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## sldispatcher (Feb 2, 2009)

NIGHTTIME on Jan30th.

Some Random Musings first:

The PPC did appear to have 3 or 4 people go downstairs to watch the movie. That seems like a very poor waste of space for that car. But that's just me.

The PPC emptied out at nightfall (naturally). I wish that someone would really turn the lights down in there, but understand that there are limits due to safety.

There were a few squeaks and moans in the compartments. I think anything moving down an uneven surface will have that. Overall, the _outside_ noise is quite limited. We could hear the wailing of the horn..but that is a very nice touch. Some on here have recommended duct tape to stop squeaks, etc. Not a bad idea. I'd recommend ear plugs. Why? Not for the car, but for the rude patrons, in this case roomette folks, who slammed the upstairs bathroom door throughout the night....and the attendant who thought that there was only one way to shut the vestibule door...firmly.

Also, when we traveled previously, seemed like there was room to access the sink when the lower bed was made. That was not the case this time. For future reference, I would ask the attendant to make the bed just before I was ready to go to bed!

I think that the condition of these cars is pretty spectacular considering the age and mileage that has been put on them. I tend to overlook small things where others would have "their whole trip ruined" over something as nitpicky as a little soap running out of the dispenser.

Okay....on with the trip report.

It is quite easy to see well at night simply by pulling the curtain over the bedroom door and leaving the window drapes open. You can pretty much see the whole city / scenes go by. I strongly recommend it. Turn out all of the lights and let the world go by.

My wife took the top bunk and I took the bottom. It was just a little warm in the room and the ventilation system was not cooling it off. I had mentioned to the attendant (who was hard to find) earlier that it seemed a little warmer in the car than it had been. I don't like sleeping hot at all. Air conditioning is only half cooling..the other half is removing humidity. Being from Louisiana, I know a thing or two about humidity. 

He nicely explained to me that the folks downstairs thought it was just a little cool earlier. As always when this topic comes up I am reminded that you can put more clothes (or in this case more blankets on) to warm up, but you can only take so much off to get cool. Humidity is the key to this. Sometimes you have to run the A/C to remove humidity (which makes things cooler), but more importantly it makes things more comfortable.

Speaking of the attendant, other than bringing a few bags up, making out a bed (had to find him), and taking a couple of bags down (had to remind him of that as well)...he was non existent. He wasn't coarse or rude at all. He was taking a hands off approach. I know Disney has a corporate training program. I think all Amtrak staff would do well to go through the Disney program of customer service. I realize that many people in our society now think we are all entitled to something and we shouldn't have to "work" at our jobs. I bust my chops every day to try and provide exemplary customer service. Not because I might get more money, it's just that I'm supposed to give it my best.

There was actually room on the lower bunk for both my wife and myself. She is petite and I am not. About 3 am she finally got cold (the car had cooled off) and came down below.

Leaving Emeryville, I knew that we went along the bay for a while. You could definitely feel the rocking and swaying of the train as it went through the curves at what felt like a pretty good clip. Between the curtain on the door and the window drapes, the room was plenty dark. I woke up at 1114 when we were sitting still and the door downstairs slammed shut. I drifted back off to sleep and had a pretty restful sleep for the next 4 hours.

I knew about the trip through Northern California and had secretly hoped we would fall 3 or 4 hours behind so I could take it in. However, at 4 am I could tell we were making many twists and turns. Sure enough, a quick peak out of the window and I could see the river down below and a canyon like experience above us. Very few horn blasts were being sounded. The track was smoother here and the slower speed probably contributed quite a bit to the overall more comfortable ride.

I figured that our stop at 5am was mostly likely Dunsmuir....and by 630am I was ready to get up. I rousted the missus out of bed enough to get ready. For future reference, if you just grab the bar under the sofa section nearest the door...you can give yourself room at the wash basin to prep for the morning. It is a tight space...but try doing that on an airplane.

I joined my dad in the PPC for a beautiful sunrise south of Klamath Falls. There was a signficant frost this morning. Deer along the tracks and a few coyotes were present. Mountain peaks were clearly visible. It was quite beautiful. A few more yellow flags (slow order sections) were encountered. They seemed to be relatively short. Again with what appeared to be very little freight traffic, we arrived into Klamath Falls quite early. we had 50 minutes to sit and wait.

I voted that we try the PPC breakfast. It was okay. Again, they get close, but just miss the mark. Don't get me wrong. You'll get full. But you won't leave your trip thinking "I can't wait to eat such and such on Amtrak again". Also the tables in the PPC are extremely tight. Even my petite wife thought that they were a tight fit. For the wine tasting we had sat four together and did fine, but they serve meals with only 2 to a table.

We ate breakfast while at the Klamath Falls station stop.

(I failed to mention dinner in the diner the night before. Had I to do it over again, I probably would have chose the PPC dinner...it's just that for me, the PPC needs 2 meat choices, not one. 2 of us had the flat iron steak..not memorable. one had the fish special .. Mahi Mahi...wasn't fishy...but needed a sauce badly. Also, a different salad blend would have been nice to distinguish the lunch salad from the dinner salad. I can only imagine the CZ/SL/SC/TE folks get BORED with that menu! The service was very fast and efficient. Not bad at all. The desserts were good.)

Okay..next post I'll talk about Willamette Pass, etc.

BTW (Is this the kind of trip reporting people want to read???)


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## Long Train Runnin' (Feb 2, 2009)

sldispatcher said:


> BTW (Is this the kind of trip reporting people want to read???)



Deff this is a great report very detailed and has ur thoughts included so its very good


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## Ryan (Feb 2, 2009)

sldispatcher said:


> BTW (Is this the kind of trip reporting people want to read???)


Absolutely, yes!


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## sldispatcher (Feb 2, 2009)

DAY 2: Willamette Pass

With a few slow orders in place, we made our way up the long eastern slope side of the pass. It's fast running along the large frozen lakes north of Klamath Falls (left side of train). We were posted in our easy chairs in the PPC.

I can only imagine that a 3 sleeper train in the summer, this car must be packed. I'm not of a mind to do that.

The day was beautiful again with unlimited visibility. We moved without being stabbed by a single freight. We did stop at Cascade Lakes Siding to pick up a UP crew to take them up the pass to pick up what I believe was a mechanically stalled freight at the next siding. We left the engineer at the head end and then counted down 40 cars to drop off the conductor to release a manual break. Not sure what all of that was about...but we quickly left them to their own devices.

I can only imagine that there are some people at UP appreciate Amtrak helping out with crew movements like that.

Additionally, by this point, several people on the train new I had the scanner (with ear piece!) so I was frequently the source of information. I must say, though, that the conductors were effusive with giving people info on each unplanned stop all along the route. That's a good job and something airlines simply don't do. It is amazing how much more relaxed people are when they have just a little information. If Amtrak will get their web side to match the onboard service (if the CS is an example of system wide policy) they can really put something special together.

At any rate, I enjoyed getting detector reports on speed and temp. Again, the scanner with ear piece, is as essential as luggage as far as I'm concerned.

The Pass itself had snow on the ground and enshrouded in the clouds. It was a pleasant sight and comfortable rails to ride along. On the descent just past Oakridge we hit what must have been a 10 mile stretch of slow order along the resevoir. However, that could have just as easily been the actual track speed along this section.

Eugene was a smoke stop and we all got off for the brief crew change and walkabout. Lots of people off at this stop.

On to Albany and Salem and finally into Portland via the dramatic river approach and crossing.

It looked like a massive exodus from the train. The Empire Builder's Portland was on the track next to us and a Cascades talgo set was next to the station. (We arrived on Track 5). The waiting room in Portland was fairly busy with people waiting for the departure of the Builder.

Taxis were numerous outside of the station and made leaving the train look like child's play compared to getting off of a commercial airline flight in this country.

I need to stop here and brag on our timeliness and propose a new way for Amtrak to calculate arrival times and "on-time"percentage.

Think about this.....airline flights are considered "on-time" if they do so within 15 minutes of their schedule departure/arrival time. Now let's assume that a median flight time in this country is 2 hours. 15 minutes is thus 1/8 of the travel portion of the flight.

Now let's roll that over to a 2 day (48 hour train trip). If you were to assume that any train was "on-time" if it made it to a station within a relative percentage of the total travel time...what would Amtrak look like?

For example, shouldn't the CS, 30 hours out of LA, be able to report a percent deviation/relative arrival as opposed to being counted late if it is one minute off the mark?

By my calculation, the RELATIVE on-time performance of a 14 from LA would be a tolerance of 2.4 hours if we extrapolated on-time figures for the airline industry to Amtrak Travel!!!!!

So again, I'm for a new reporting system...one that is fair and comparable and yet far more rigid than the airline percentage.

But that is a discussion for a different thread.

At any rate, we arrived on time and having had a good time.

Is there room for improvement? Yes. Is this the perfect train to break in an Amtrak Newbie? I can't imagine any trip that would be any better. Would I take it again? Certainly. Do I miss it now? Of course.

I would happily get back on the train tomorrow.

next post......my summary of suggestions (as though anyone cares) and thoughts about not jus the CS, but Amtrak travel in general....based on my experiences of this trip.

Also, does anyone have any questions?


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## sldispatcher (Feb 2, 2009)

(the forum monitors may wish to move this)

After riding the Starlight, here are my thoughts on improvements/subjects for discussion. Of course, I realize some of these have been kicked around ad nauseum...but it is still a free country, at least for the next few months. :blink:

First, you need to know the angle from whence I come. I didn't give much background on myself for the trip report because I didn't want it to color the actual trip report.

I consider myself upper middle income. Raised in the country. Know what hard work and sacrifice are about. I'm in a medical field and have spent long hours at other people's beck and call. I now live in a small city (Shreveport, LA). I am a railfan and very active model railroad operations guy.

I have a travel bug that is genetic. Grew up traveling in motor homes...now prefer vacation home rentals in remote/more rural places than the big city life.

I don't have to have action on a vacation from sun up to sun down. I've flown many many times for pleasure and have been lucky to ride in the front cabin for both domestic and international travel. However, I'm still very down to earth and don't feel like I am entitled to anything other than what I have earned.

My wife had a more limited travel background...but now she can't get enough. We have no kids. Our favorite cruise line is Holland America (which has a tradition of being more sedate and an older population) but is marked with consistent service and quiet ships.

With that said........here are my random thoughts after my Coast Starlight trip.

#1. Amtrak has a serious identity issue. It is not of its own making, but is completely up to it to solve. It suffers from a dual personality disorder. It is both transportation system and vacation destination. Airlines don't have that function. Cruise ships don't do that anymore. Hotels don't have to worry with that. Maybe, just maybe, some ferries serve that purpose, but only in special places. With that in mind, I'll go to number 2.

#2. Amtrak seems to excel at getting people to/from smaller places to bigger places at a very reasonable cost. For instance, Los Angeles to Klamath Falls. Eugene to San Jose. The price gouging airlines simply pummel people. I know because they tear us up in Shreveport, while Dallas has much better prices to larger cities. (I know all about the Southwest effect, competition, etc....). For this, it provides a vital transportation link to small communities and I believe the Empire Builder is the poster child for this type of service. HOWEVER, an efficient transportation system requires frequency of service to increase utilization of employees and facilities. There are successful isolated examples of this working within rail transportation in our country and I don't need to go into those here. I see the need for an overnight train that leaves LA and winds up in Portland. And the return that is all day from Portland to the Bay area with the overnight into LA. Why? Because as a transporation system you need to offer at least 2 frequencies each day. It doesn't have to go the entire distance of the route, just cover enough portions to make reasonable connections of those smaller cities with the larger cities. Therefore, that leads to #3.

#3. The bedroom accomodations on the Starlight are overpriced and underserved. Roomettes are affordable for overnight travel, but seem to be relatively low yield to the system. They also enjoy all of the "perks" associated with the bedroom. Deluxe bedrooms seem to be used more for the "vacation" aspect of Amtrak travel. HOWEVER, when I look at my compadres in this world, most would consider them woefully inadequate for the price and service rendered. We have a world where people will pay $3000 for basically a lounge chair to fly 9 hours across the Atlantic. What do they get? A good nights rest, nicer service, a bigger seat, and a couple of "quality meals". Of course it is a captive market. But Amtrak does a very poor job of presenting itself as a vacation destination. There are those on here that will point to sold out rooms as being proof otherwise. Again, if you are still with me, read on to the end!

#4. If people are okay spending 9 hours on a flight (plus the connecting flight/airport time, etc), then I think most reasonable Americans would consider 12 - 18, even 24 hours of travel time in a more relaxed mode as quite acceptable. Again, from the small places to the big places..or even better, small to small. In short, take one of those coaches and make it a Slumbercoach on the CS for each trainset. 1-2 seating with double leg room and a 170 degree or even lie flat chair with built in personal video. Make it price appropriate and some pre-packaged meal served (like along the NEC or surfliners). now you have an upgraded coach accomodation for people willing to pay more to travel from San Louis Obispo to Portland, but still at a fraction of the price of the airline ticket. People on here can have fun thinking about privacy curtains, etc. In the end, you are still providing a balanced transporation system that just happens to have scenery.

#5. I think Amtrak needs to decide which it wants to be....transportation system or vacation destination. As it stands now, it will never do both well. I have no doubt that it deserves a contribution from the public at large just like every other transportation system. But by gosh, I want it to have a chance!

standby for #6 - #10


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## AlanB (Feb 3, 2009)

sldispatcher said:


> I need to stop here and brag on our timeliness and propose a new way for Amtrak to calculate arrival times and "on-time"percentage.
> Think about this.....airline flights are considered "on-time" if they do so within 15 minutes of their schedule departure/arrival time. Now let's assume that a median flight time in this country is 2 hours. 15 minutes is thus 1/8 of the travel portion of the flight.
> 
> Now let's roll that over to a 2 day (48 hour train trip). If you were to assume that any train was "on-time" if it made it to a station within a relative percentage of the total travel time...what would Amtrak look like?
> ...


Actually, while not reflected in the online system or by Julie, a long distance train is considered ontime if it arrives at its final destination within 30 minutes of the scheduled arrival time.


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## sldispatcher (Feb 3, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Actually, while not reflected in the online system or by Julie, a long distance train is considered ontime if it arrives at its final destination within 30 minutes of the scheduled arrival time.



I've heard that, but is that our attitude on this board? Is that what a person experiences in Klamath Falls or Salinas? Don't get me wrong, I get your point all of the way.

For me, that would be like tracking an airplane over it's route assignments for 2 days and reporting it ontime if it hits the final city within 30 minutes. All of the other flight segments could have been affected or are affected 90 percent of the time.

DC


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## hello (Feb 3, 2009)

Thank you for your report -- great reading!


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## Chi_Train_Fan (Feb 4, 2009)

Thank you for your report. The Coast Starlight is one of my favorites, and I agree with many of your opinions on Amtrak.

Cheers,

David Z

Chicago, IL


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## PRR 60 (Feb 4, 2009)

sldispatcher said:


> ,,,,With that said, why in the world you wouldn't use washable China on the train as opposed to all of that plastic is far beyond me.


I'm not sure that the environmental impact clearly favors the use of washable tableware. The plastic tableware used by Amtrak is recyclable. I have no idea if Amtrak in fact does that, but they could. Washable tableware requires some volume of water for cleaning which is contaminated by detergent. So, it's one-use recyclable material that does not require cleaning verses reusable material that needs to be washed. Maybe a toss-up, environmentally?

But the real issue is cost. There is breakage of conventional tableware. Every restaurant factors that in, but on a train that must be a huge issue. Plus there is the need to equip dining cars with dishwashers and keep them working despite bouncing around on some less than perfect track. You have to have the staff do the washing while trying to do all the other things that have to be done in a dining car. Add all that up, and the cost providing real tableware in a dining car is probably significant. So, accepting that Amtrak requires federal subsidy to exist and that those funds will always be less than what Amtrak would like, is it not in Amtrak's best interest to save a few dollars by using high-quality plastic tableware in an acceptable dining experience and spending the money saved elsewhere? I'm not sure that providing real china in Amtrak dining cars is worthy of additional federal taxpayer assistance.


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## jackal (Feb 5, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> I'm not sure that the environmental impact clearly favors the use of washable tableware. The plastic tableware used by Amtrak is recyclable. I have no idea if Amtrak in fact does that, but they could. Washable tableware requires some volume of water for cleaning which is contaminated by detergent. So, it's one-use recyclable material that does not require cleaning verses reusable material that needs to be washed. Maybe a toss-up, environmentally?


Good point, but I would assume that items to be recycled must also be cleaned at some stage (I don't think pork loin fat does too well in the machine that melts the plastics for re-use!).

Maybe they do just melt everything together and then just skim the junk off the top of the vat of melted plastic...


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## sldispatcher (Feb 5, 2009)

My 6 - 10 list of closing thoughts on the Starlight trip.

#6. I simply propose that Amtrak, utilizing the short duration of the CS, to create a separate, money making division to provide high end food, service and accomodations to make the CS a vacation destination. Imagine taking 4 sleeping cars out of the rotation (still leaving 2 regular sleepers for the "regular" service) and remodeling them to have only 8 bedrooms or so. Taking the 4 parlor cars out of the rotation and placing them in this highly specialized service.

You would now have 2 sleepers and 2 parlor cars per "set". Now, you need to just offer dining and chairs in the parlor cars for a maximum of 36 people. That's 36 chairs (which could be one car with the bar on one end and 18 chairs down each side) followed by the second parlor car with a focus on food service.

#7. Taking #6 above, either Amtrak or a secondary provider (much like the old Pullman days) can now come in and operate the system. Imagine what Holland America could do (and they are Seattle based!) with those 4 cars! They can sell add-ons to Seattle cruises to Alaska in the summer and to Mexico destinations out of San Diego (with the cars being switched to a surfliner, or course) for the winter months. They can start with just straight hook-on and run..but what happens when you start allowing for a stop in Paso Robles or SLO with tours to local wineries? Klamath Falls to go to Crater Lake?

THIS is the kind of service and experience that would have people coming back again and again. Imagine if that service helped make the route...(gasp) profitable? If they can do it in Alaska..and people are willing to pay for it...they'll do it on the CS! Or use the SSL for this wonderful service and keep the Parlor Car on the "regular" Amtrak service to continue to attract persons to the CS all deluxe bedroom sleepers. Heck, Holland America could even ship their cars used on the Alaska RR south in the winter to augment services on the left coast.

#8. Taking #6 & #7 to the full extreme...if we go back to the transportation side of the equation, you can now see where harvesting an additional Amtrak Sleeper from the CS (leaving one for each train set + slumbercoach + diner&/or SSL/PPC, + coaches) you now have a sleeper, potential coaches for a 2nd train on the route! San Diego to Portland with the overnight portion between LA and OAK...I know there used to be an overnight train on that route. You are now serving most of the route with inclusion of SAN.

#9. Choose the diner for one train ?CS? and the SSL for the other. Remodel both for food service/lounge space. I think that the CCC has merit in terms of utilization. I know some people don't like the concept, but is it more important to have additional train service or worry that a train has a dining car as opposed to the CCC? Especially with a single sleeper concept, you are really lowering the number of people that would utilize that service.

#10. In summary, with a few changes, Amtrak can offer 2 trains along almost the entire route of the CS. In addition, new slumbercoach concepts can be tried. Again, think of people in SLO, Salinas and Klamath Falls. They may pay $80 each way for an Amtrak coach seat...would they be willing to pay 140 each way for a slumbercoach seat? Utilize the existing schedule to launch a high end service either directly provided by Amtrak or outsourced to a trusted travel name (like Holland America) that already has a history of providing high-end rail service (Alaska). The goal, of course, is to make rail service on a long distance route highly attractive as a _vacation destination _to the upper middle income and older disposable income crowd while increasing options for utilizing Amtrak's ability to provide a _transportation_ modality for small and large communities along the route through a frequency increase. Ultimately, you would want the "vacation" portion to provide the profit that augments the support for the transportation side.

Could this model work along other routes? SWC (bring back the Super Chief name )?; EB; CZ?

Just my 2 cents.


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## jackal (Feb 5, 2009)

sldispatcher said:


> My 6 - 10 list of closing thoughts on the Starlight trip.


Glad you enjoyed your trip!

I can see some objections to your points, though.

I don't agree with #6. Perhaps if and when we increase capacity by building new cars, we can build some of the new cars to incorporate such an idea, but the last thing we need to do now is cut capacity.

Also, many have argued against Amtrak marketing itself as a vacation destination. Amtrak is a publicly-chartered company whose mission is to provide essential transportation services to all people, not to be a government-subsidized cruise line.

However, idea #7 has some merit. While this was already tested somewhat by GrandLuxe (or whatever the proper permutation of the name is) and failed, part of the reason might be that the price of those journeys was out of reach to all but the wealthiest people. Something along the lines of what Holland America, Princess, and Royal Caribbean do in Alaska could very well be quite profitable for them (and a revenue booster for Amtrak!) and quite affordable for normal middle-class people!

They might not even have to use new equipment: currently, the "pull contractor" cars (the Alaska Railroad's term for the cruise companies) sit in the Anchorage rail yard unused for about eight months out of the year. While shipping the cars down to the Lower 48 on the rail barge is certainly not a cheap move, it's not impossible and could, if marketed and priced right, still be worth the costs.

I wonder if anyone has brought this idea up with the cruise lines. If I happen to run into anyone who has influence in this, maybe I'll drop the idea on them.


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## sky12065 (Feb 6, 2009)

jackal said:


> Also, many have argued against Amtrak marketing itself as a vacation destination. Amtrak is a publicly-chartered company whose mission is to provide essential transportation services to all people, not to be a government-subsidized cruise line.


The following quote identifies what the current Amtrak Mission is. I'm not joining the "vacation destination" debate, but I see nothing in the statement that prohibits Amtrak from marketing itself as a vacation destination.



Albany TimesUnion.Com - <a href='http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=745700 said:


> Boardman pointed out the Amtrak reauthorization legislation approved in October also includes a change in the stated mission for the railroad.
> "It's not a huge difference, but it's a substantial difference," he said.
> 
> The previous mission statement said Amtrak was to provide "safe and reliable intercity rail passenger service in an economically sound manner that exceeds customer expectation." The new statement says the railroad is to provide "efficient and effective intercity passenger rail mobility consisting of high-quality service that is trip-time competitive with other intercity travel options."


Hum... I wonder why Congress has removed the words exceeds customer expectation from the statement? Interesting! Could they be looking down on our expectations as unrealistic; or are they trying to micro-manage our expectations like they try and micro-managing Amtrak operations?


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## Neil_M (Feb 6, 2009)

jackal said:


> Also, many have argued against Amtrak marketing itself as a vacation destination. Amtrak is a publicly-chartered company whose mission is to provide essential transportation services to all people, not to be a government-subsidized cruise line.


So when I went from from San Francisco to New York via LA last April I was doing a bad thing? I didn't have to use the train, but I did and didn't think my dollars were different to anyone elses.

Amtrak needs to make sure its trains run on time and the advertised facilities are on the train and work well. Does it matter if the passenger is on a leisurely amble round the country or a business man on a time critical journey? Swiss railways manage to provide essential transportation and be a tourist draw. Passengers=cash.


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## jackal (Feb 6, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> jackal said:
> 
> 
> > Also, many have argued against Amtrak marketing itself as a vacation destination. Amtrak is a publicly-chartered company whose mission is to provide essential transportation services to all people, not to be a government-subsidized cruise line.
> ...


Sorry, no, I didn't mean to imply that at all. I was just saying that some people have argued that. I'm not sure I agree with that argument either, but that argument has been made. (I realize my original post wasn't clear and made it sound like I was making that argument.)

In any case, I don't think anyone would argue _against_ people using Amtrak because they enjoy train travel and choose to make the journey part of the vacation. The question is whether Amtrak should _market_ itself as a land cruise, given that it is a public company--and a government-subsidized one at that.


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## Neil_M (Feb 6, 2009)

jackal said:


> In any case, I don't think anyone would _argue_ that people using Amtrak because they enjoy train travel and choose to make the journey part of the vacation. The question is whether Amtrak should market itself as a land cruise, given that it is a public company--and a government-subsidized one at that.


So how exactly would Amtrak market trains taking 50+ hours to get from Chicago to the West Coast? Certainly not on speed or regularity of service. As much as those trains provide transport between all the little stations en route, its people doing the whole trip that would be the major part of the revenue stream for that train. Using the leisurely aspect of the LD trains and the fact you get to travel through some spectacular scenery seems the only way to market those trains.

After all, how exactly you market the trains and where the passengers come from is of little consequence. What you need is passengers.


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## sky12065 (Feb 6, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> jackal said:
> 
> 
> > In any case, I don't think anyone would _argue_ that people using Amtrak because they enjoy train travel and choose to make the journey part of the vacation. The question is whether Amtrak should market itself as a land cruise, given that it is a public company--and a government-subsidized one at that.
> ...


I read your response at least 3 times to make sure I understood exactly what you're saying. Now that I think that I do understand, I have to say that I agree with you 100%! (And they said it couldn't be done) 

In the current Amtrak Mission Statement that I previously quoted, it states that Amtrak is to provide it's service in an "efficient and effective" manner. IMHO, I fail to see how being government-subsidized has anything to do with marketing statigies given the mission mandate or how it lends itself to argue that a "land cruise" focus should not be done. I also think that it would be near impossible to be able to demonstrate that Amtrak's marketing itself as a "land cruise" does not meet the mandate of that statement!


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## the_traveler (Feb 6, 2009)

I have to agree.

I never heard or saw an Amtrak advertisement saying something like "Get from coast to coast in 4 days", but I do remember the ads saying "See America at *SEE* level!" I would take that as not promoting getting there within a few hours!


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## Neil_M (Feb 6, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> I read your response at least 3 times to make sure I understood exactly what you're saying. Now that I think that I do understand, I have to say that I agree with you 100%! (And they said it couldn't be done)


I didn't think it was that complicated!

Seeing as Amtrak run these LD trains then surely it has to pursue all chances of revenue.

Surely you want to fill your most expensive accommodation as much as possible, otherwise why bother having sleepers anyway?


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## sky12065 (Feb 7, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> sky12065 said:
> 
> 
> > I read your response at least 3 times to make sure I understood exactly what you're saying. Now that I think that I do understand, I have to say that I agree with you 100%! (And they said it couldn't be done)
> ...


Until I read your response above, I never realized that my statement about "reading your response at least 3 times" could be interpeted as a statement on your writing rather than on a checking of my own comprehension before expressing that I agreed with you. Even then it took a few minutes to sink in after I read it. I assure you that I never intended for it to be a statement on your writing and apologize for any misunderstanding! :blush:


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