# 10 Minute boarding rule?



## Jeff

This is the first time I've ever encountered this problem. I had a ticket scheduled for an 8:15 departing train from KC Union Station and didn't arrive until 8:10 and wasn't allowed to board because apparently they close the doors to the train at 8:05 and no further boarding is allowed. I was forced to purchase a higher fare ticket for a train at 4 pm (well actually 3:50 since that's when they close the doors). I didn't know Amtrak was starting to follow airline boarding protocols. Does this policy exist anywhere else and does anyone think it serves any useful purpose other than to create unnecessary transportation problems for it customers? I take the train from STL & Boston often times and I just walk to the platform and get on sometimes just a few minutes before departure. I've never heard or encountered such an inane pointless policy until today.


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## CCC1007

Not that I am aware of. This sounds like someone on a power trip.


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## Trains4me

Kansas City Station - Ticket Sales and Boarding Gates Close EarlierFor your safety and security, the following changes have been made to the ticket sales and boarding procedures at Kansas City Station:


Boarding gates will close five minutes before train departures.
Ticket sales will end 10 minutes before departure times.



Found this on the Amtrak website under "Station Advisories". Several stations implemented the same policy sometime in 2015 I believe for safety and security reasons as stated. Probably also helps with OTP numbers at the busier locations.


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## the_traveler

Some other stations (including CHI and WAS) also close the boarding gates a short time prior to departure.


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## Jeff

Well the "boarding gate" (i.e., glass doors leading out to the platform which were blocked off with trash cans placed in front of it) was closed 10 minutes, not 5 minutes before scheduled departure according to the ticket agent. The agent also said the doors to the train close 10 minutes before the scheduled departure and no further boarding is allowed. I'm not sure what protocol they are following but, again, does this serve any meaningful purpose?


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## crescent-zephyr

Another huge inconsistency with Amtrak... at New York Penn, they don't even announce the boarding until about 10 minutes prior to departure.


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## Tennessee Traveler

Meaningful purpose - SECURITY


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## the_traveler

At NYP, the reason the track number is not announced is two fold:

1) They do not know what track the train will be put on (which platform will be open) as there are 2 commuter railroads besides Amtrak using those same tracks, and they have trains coming and going all the time, and

2) Since the platforms are so narrow, they try to let the hundreds of passengers detaining exit before the hundreds of passengers boarding get on.

The LD trains board earlier than the 10 minutes.


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## Palmetto

Oh I think they know on which track a particular train will be arriving. Redcaps get that info in advance, don't they?


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## Triley

Palmetto said:


> Oh I think they know on which track a particular train will be arriving. Redcaps get that info in advance, don't they?


There have been several times I've been waiting in front a monitor, and even though a manager can tell me my train is in one of the tunnels, that no track info has been released. Then there have been mornings I see my train's track number, and I head down to track level and wait 10-15 minutes for my train. Granted, that is also at 4am when there's just empty Acelas on the track level, so half the station is empty.


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## VentureForth

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Meaningful purpose - SECURITY


How does closing the doors 10 minutes early help with security?


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## caravanman

If you feel that you were treated contrary to the published info, then you should contact Amtrak and ask for a refund of your earlier ticket.

"Security" is weird in the USA... It always seems to boil down to treating folk like kids. Even though your train is there, and is not leaving for 5 or 10 minutes, our rules say, etc, etc.

We don't want passengers running after a moving train, but this is quite different to deliberatly blocking access when there is plenty of time to board.

Get there extra early and stand in line where you are told to seems to be the way to be secure?

Ed.


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## Jeff

Meaningful purpose = security??? You mean somehow denying boarding to the arrivals in the last 10 minutes is somehow going to improve security? Exactly how would that policy serve security in any possible remote way? Is KC at the cutting edge of this new security concept (i.e. they stumbled onto the idea that bad guys always tend to run late?). Sounds like just a made up reason to try and justify a pointless rule that doesn't serve any purpose other than just to create a rule for the sake of creating a rule.


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## jebr

If you were at the gate, ticket in hand, 10 minutes prior to departure, and the staff denied you boarding because of it, they were breaking the posted rules. If this was the case, I would call into Amtrak and, at minimum, ask for a refund of the difference in fare.

However, the initial post makes it sound like you actually arrived 5 minutes prior to departure. In that case, Amtrak closes the gates at many stations (including Kansas City) 5 minutes prior to departure. It's possible they said they closed them five minutes ago to try and avoid an argument if a passenger was told they just closed the gates. I'm not sold that lying to a passenger is a good policy in any case, but if the gate was closed 5 minutes prior to boarding, I don't think it's fair to ask for compensation.

The reason for closing the gates 5 minutes prior to departure is mainly so that people don't run to their train and potentially slip and fall. They can also ensure the platform is clear before departure. I'm not sold that it's completely necessary (most if not all commuter railroads have the gates open until departure ) but it is listed on the website as such.


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## Hal

jebr said:


> If you were at the gate, ticket in hand, 10 minutes prior to departure, and the staff denied you boarding because of it, they were breaking the posted rules. If this was the case, I would call into Amtrak and, at minimum, ask for a refund of the difference in fare.
> 
> However, the initial post makes it sound like you actually arrived 5 minutes prior to departure. In that case, Amtrak closes the gates at many stations (including Kansas City) 5 minutes prior to departure. It's possible they said they closed them five minutes ago to try and avoid an argument if a passenger was told they just closed the gates. I'm not sold that lying to a passenger is a good policy in any case, but if the gate was closed 5 minutes prior to boarding, I don't think it's fair to ask for compensation.
> 
> The reason for closing the gates 5 minutes prior to departure is mainly so that people don't run to their train and potentially slip and fall. They can also ensure the platform is clear before departure. I'm not sold that it's completely necessary (most if not all commuter railroads have the gates open until departure ) but it is listed on the website as such.


They said they arrived at 8:10 for an 8:15 departure. So they did not break the posted rules. When the gate is clear they notify the crew. The crew makes sure the platform is clear then closes the train doors. At that point when they have given the gate the ushers are not going to let anyone thru the door. That frustrates late passengers because they see the train has not departed and want to try and jump on it but they don't realize the doors have been closed. From what I have seen the ushers are pretty liberal about closing the gate, that is if they see someone approaching the gate they won't close it on them at the exact time. So I doubt the other person was even close to the five minutes.

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## Jeff

I had taken a cab and was dropped off directly in front of Union Station in KC if anyone is familiar with it's layout. I remember looking at my cell phone as soon the cabbie was paid & my cell phone said 8:07 and I assumed I was going to be fine. I made a beeline through the station which is really not that big in comparison to some other larger big city stations. The waiting area was empty and the that is when I discovered the glass doors to the platform were locked when I tried to open one (reaching past the trash cans placed in front of them). At that time it could not have been any later that 8:10. Discovering that they were closed that is when I turned around to the the ticket counter and approached it and the ticket agent started telling me they are locked 10 minutes prior to departure. I started arguing with him about it because I had never encountered this policy before and I knew the train was sitting right out there with another 5 minutes or so before it had to leave. I knew I wouldn't have had any trouble making if if allowed to go forward and it just seemed like a senseless situation. He got defensive when I pointed out how idiotic their "policy" was and that's when he said it didn't matter anyway because the train crew had closed the doors 10 minutes prior anyway to the scheduled 8:15 departure and it would have been impossible to board which I kind of thought might have been BS. I think he locked the doors earlier than he should have and then he just wanted to come up with excuses for it. I also pointed out to him they don't have this policy in other cities where I use Amtrak, STL & Boston for example (South Station) and he argued with me that they do have this policy in STL. I know I have boarded the Chicago train in STL at least several times before with just a couple minutes to spare the past few years and I've never run into anything like this before. Anyway, that's what happened.


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## crabby_appleton1950

Jeff said:


> This is the first time I've ever encountered this problem. I had a ticket scheduled for an 8:15 departing train from KC Union Station and didn't arrive until 8:10 and wasn't allowed to board because apparently they close the doors to the train at 8:05 and no further boarding is allowed. I was forced to purchase a higher fare ticket for a train at 4 pm (well actually 3:50 since that's when they close the doors). I didn't know Amtrak was starting to follow airline boarding protocols. Does this policy exist anywhere else and does anyone think it serves any useful purpose other than to create unnecessary transportation problems for it customers? I take the train from STL & Boston often times and I just walk to the platform and get on sometimes just a few minutes before departure. I've never heard or encountered such an inane pointless policy until today.


It sounds as if you often get there just before departure.

You may want to get there earlier?

https://www.amtrak.com/boarding


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## Hal

Jeff said:


> I started arguing with him about it because I had never encountered this policy before and I knew the train was sitting right out there with another 5 minutes or so before it had to leave. I knew I wouldn't have had any trouble making if if allowed to go forward and it just seemed like a senseless situation.


It is senseless that you got there late. Despite what you claim the station person said or your made up speculation when they closed the door, you arrived at 8:10 or probably later for an 8:15 train. I have seen that many times. Passengers see the train waiting for the signal to change in their favor after the doors have been closed and platform has been cleared,and passengers think they would have no trouble making it if allowed to go forward cause the train has not moved yet. That is why they close the gate now at some stations five minutes early. People were trying to grab onto moving trains, falling on the platform running for trains, delaying trains, etc.

There is a certain percentage of people who arrive at the last minute and its never their fault in their own mind. I have seen passengers screaming at the station people who arrive after the schedualed departure time. Some of them even think the train left early. LOL


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## crescent-zephyr

Hal said:


> It is senseless that you got there late. Despite what you claim the station person said or your made up speculation when they closed the door, you arrived at 8:10 or probably later for an 8:15 train. I have seen that many times. Passengers see the train waiting for the signal to change in their favor after the doors have been closed and platform has been cleared,and passengers think they would have no trouble making it if allowed to go forward cause the train has not moved yet. That is why they close the gate now at some stations five minutes early. People were trying to grab onto moving trains, falling on the platform running for trains, delaying trains, etc.


It's not really senseless...

I can think of twice this year alone that I arrived at a train station (Amtrak Lancaster and Metra Schaumburg) within 5 minutes of the departure.

In the case of the Metra Train, I had to buy my ticket in the station before boarding. Alot can be accomplished in 5 minutes.

I'm not saying I recommend it, in both of those situations there was another train in an hour that I could have taken easily... but in both cases I made the train. But would not have if some 5 minute rule existed at those stations.

I've only been through Kansas City's Station once, but I do recall it has a very strange layout with a corridor and stairs involved in order to get to the platforms I think... So I can kinda see the 5 minute rule... but I totally understand the OP's frustration.


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## Devil's Advocate

VentureForth said:


> How does closing the doors 10 minutes early help with security?


If he had any clue what he was talking about he would have come up with something more meaningful than a single capitalized word parroted as a retort. You'd think people would be embarrassed to openly expose their lack of critical thinking in such an obvious manner.



caravanman said:


> "Security" is weird in the USA... It always seems to boil down to treating folk like kids. Even though your train is there, and is not leaving for 5 or 10 minutes, our rules say, etc, etc. We don't want passengers running after a moving train, but this is quite different to deliberatly blocking access when there is plenty of time to board. Get there extra early and stand in line where you are told to seems to be the way to be secure?


To be fair this seems to mainly be an Amtrak issue. Other carriers at the same stations aren't this silly about it. Even other Amtrak stations are generally far more easy going. But if you happen to be boarding an Amtrak train at a station large enough to have a middle manager somewhere they seem to go out of their way to make the process as tedious and bureaucratic as possible.



Hal said:


> It is senseless that you got there late. Despite what you claim the station person said or your made up speculation when they closed the door, you arrived at 8:10 or probably later for an 8:15 train. I have seen that many times. Passengers see the train waiting for the signal to change in their favor after the doors have been closed and platform has been cleared,and passengers think they would have no trouble making it if allowed to go forward cause the train has not moved yet. That is why they close the gate now at some stations five minutes early. People were trying to grab onto moving trains, falling on the platform running for trains, delaying trains, etc.


I actually see last minute boarding as a positive aspect of train travel. In fact it works just fine where I live. If anything Amtrak should be making the boarding process as easy and painless as possible and advertising it as a bonus over airline travel. If Amtrak ran their trains like clockwork I might understand the desire to keep anyone from delaying the train, but we all know that's not really true. That being the case it seems better for Amtrak to earn some goodwill by being a bit more lenient and a bit less power hungry. But maybe that's just me.


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## Seaboard92

In Europe they don't have that issue. In Europe you just walk up to the train anytime before departure as long as it's there of course. München It is normally fifteen minutes prior to departure. And you can get on any car and sit where you like. Part of that probably has to do with our lawsuit culture. I find it to be an interesting system. And if the door is closed you open it yourself.


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## Jeff

So to update I took the 4pm train and is this what I observed. Basically a long queue forms in front of the glass door gate from whenever the first person gets there I guess and precisely at 3:45 they announce boarding and the long queue files past the glass door and works their way down a sidewalk and stairs to the platform. I was near the end of the queue and it probably took 3-5 minutes for everyone to get through the glass doors. At some point I guess the glass door gate got locked behind me. I boarded the train, the train doors stayed open until the train pulled away exactly on time at 4pm and I heard the train car doors pulled closed. I know approximately what time I got there that morning, I don't need someone who wasn't their to try and tell me different. I left the cab right of front of the station entrance at 8:07. It couldn't have taken more than two minutes to walk down the corridor to the glass doors which were already closed with trash cans in front of them and no one around which tells me when they got locked it had to have been a couple minutes before I arrived. In fact the ticket agent confirmed that when he said the doors get locked 10 minutes departure but that's a contradiction of their stated policy of 5 minutes so in their in the wrong to be doing that. It also doesn't help that he gave me some unneeded BS that the train conductors had closed the train doors 10 minutes before departure. This guy must think he's working for an airline. Anyway, I'm going to file an official complaint about his conduct to Amtrak, not only is he not following their own stated policy he flat out lies to me about the conductor's closing the train doors. If they had followed their stated policy I'm confident I would have made the 8:15 am train this morning.


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## caravanman

We all should complain if we have a genuine grievance. It does sound as if the gates were closed too early. I hope Jeff will let us know how Amtrak responds to his complaint.

Ed.


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## Hal

caravanman said:


> We all should complain if we have a genuine grievance. It does sound as if the gates were closed too early. I hope Jeff will let us know how Amtrak responds to his complaint.
> 
> Ed.


It doesn't sound like it to me. He was there at 8:10 when they were supposed to be closed. So it is his own fault. Also note the station was empty. So he was the only one. The rest he is making up. Whether we agree with the five minute rule or not the door was supposed to be closed. He can't admit he screwed up. I'd say he is spoiled.

He can write and complain but they are going to know it's hogwash.

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## Hal

Devil said:


> I actually see last minute boarding as a positive aspect of train travel. In fact it works just fine where I live. If anything Amtrak should be making the boarding process as easy and painless as possible and advertising it as a bonus over airline travel. If Amtrak ran their trains like clockwork I might understand the desire to keep anyone from delaying the train, but we all know that's not really true. That being the case it seems better for Amtrak to earn some goodwill by being a bit more lenient and a bit less power hungry. But maybe that's just me.


Never been to Kansas City but I have seen the boarding along the NEC and they have always been lenient. Washington DC closes the gate at two minutes. And they don't close it on that minute if they see someone coming. Sometimes they even call the crew and ask if they can send someone out after they have given the gate. 
Another thing to mention is that if the train is delayed the dispatcher is going to want to know why. If it is because the gate was closed late then they put it on the station. That station person is going to be asked about it.

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## jebr

Hal said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all should complain if we have a genuine grievance. It does sound as if the gates were closed too early. I hope Jeff will let us know how Amtrak responds to his complaint.
> 
> Ed.
> 
> 
> 
> The rest he is making up.
Click to expand...








(xkcd)

If you're going to state matter-of-factly that someone is making stuff up, you better have been there or have a source to back up that claim. This wouldn't be the first time Amtrak staff have broken stated policy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they closed the gates 10 minutes prior to boarding instead of 5, especially if the waiting room "looked empty." It's against stated policy, but again, it wouldn't be the first time employees break stated policy.


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## Hal

jebr said:


> Hal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all should complain if we have a genuine grievance. It does sound as if the gates were closed too early. I hope Jeff will let us know how Amtrak responds to his complaint.
> 
> Ed.
> 
> 
> 
> The rest he is making up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (xkcd)
> 
> If you're going to state matter-of-factly that someone is making stuff up, you better have been there or have a source to back up that claim. This wouldn't be the first time Amtrak staff have broken stated policy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they closed the gates 10 minutes prior to boarding instead of 5, especially if the waiting room "looked empty." It's against stated policy, but again, it wouldn't be the first time employees break stated policy.
Click to expand...

He didn't see them close the gate 10 minutes before. He was not there then. So he is the source! He was there late so it didn't matter anyway. The gate was supposed to be closed at 8:10. I would be very surprised if the gate was closed early. I don't think that is a policy they would break.

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## willem

Hal said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hal said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rest he is making up.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're going to state matter-of-factly that someone is making stuff up, you better have been there or have a source to back up that claim. This wouldn't be the first time Amtrak staff have broken stated policy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they closed the gates 10 minutes prior to boarding instead of 5, especially if the waiting room "looked empty." It's against stated policy, but again, it wouldn't be the first time employees break stated policy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He didn't see them close the gate 10 minutes before. He was not there then. So he is the source! He was there late so it didn't matter anyway. The gate was supposed to be closed at 8:10. I would be very surprised if the gate was closed early. I don't think that is a policy they would break.
Click to expand...

The OP explained his reckoning of time and stated that there were trash cans in front of the doors and no Amtrak employee in sight when he arrived. Also, he said that the employee reported closing the door 10 minutes before scheduled departure. Is he making all this up?

How is this policy one that Amtrak employees wouldn't break it? Surely you're not saying that every report of an Amtrak employee deviating from policy is a fabrication?


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## Tennessee Traveler

Interestingly, Train 4 running late arrived Kansas City this morning 9:53AM and departed 9:59AM with only a 6 minute in station time. This is according to Amtrak's Status Map.


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## Thirdrail7

The main reason had less to do with security and more to do with OTP. Usually, the times in the schedule are the departures times. That is the time they technically want the train starting to pull(or push), not loading last minute passengers or closing the doors. This is when they started letting peole know that at some stations, the gate will close in advance. This gives passengers time to get to the platform, get situated and allowing the conductor to close up.

Now, some stations (like NYP) actually have a gate time in the employee schedule that allows them to leave after the published times. Most stations do not have this feature though.


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## Thirdrail7

Jeff said:


> I don't need someone who wasn't their to try and tell me different. I left the cab right of front of the station entrance at 8:07. It couldn't have taken more than two minutes to walk down the corridor to the glass doors which were already closed with trash cans in front of them and no one around which tells me when they got locked it had to have been a couple minutes before I arrived. In fact the ticket agent confirmed that when he said the doors get locked 10 minutes departure but that's a contradiction of their stated policy of 5 minutes so in their in the wrong to be doing that. It also doesn't help that he gave me some unneeded BS that the train conductors had closed the train doors 10 minutes before departure. This guy must think he's working for an airline. Anyway, I'm going to file an official complaint about his conduct to Amtrak, not only is he not following their own stated policy he flat out lies to me about the conductor's closing the train doors. If they had followed their stated policy I'm confident I would have made the 8:15 am train this morning.


You can file a complaint but looking at this story, you're already behind the eight ball. You allege that you arrived in a cab at 8:07. You then allege that it couldn't have taken more than two minutes.

Sounds good but here is what I would ask: How accurate is your watch? Perhaps the Amtrak personnel have a different time because they actually have to verify the accuracy of their timepieces at the beginning of their tours ,and when asked I'm sure they all will they followed the rules.

Did you verify the accuracy of any of your timepieces to be 100 percent certain of your times? L'll bet the answer is no, but I'm sure you'll get some sort of voucher to make up for the fact that you bet your whole day on 1 minute. Enjoy it.


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## willem

For what it's worth, he said it was the time on his cell phone, which I would take to be within a minute of real time. On the other hand, he said that in his fourth post to this thread. In his first post, he said he arrived at 0810, but there is no arrival point mentioned (cab, gate, or otherwise).


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## caravanman

I don't like the way a person says what happened to them, and then a load of guys who were not there, say he is wrong, can't tell the time, is trying to get compensation out of turn, and is basically a liar... in so many words.

It is up to Amtrak itself to say whether he is entitled to compensation or not.

I hope some of you guys are not on jury service if I ever go to court!

Ed.


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## Thirdrail7

caravanman said:


> I don't like the way a person says what happened to them, and then a load of guys who were not there, say he is wrong, can't tell the time, is trying to get compensation out of turn, and is basically a liar... in so many words.
> 
> It is up to Amtrak itself to say whether he is entitled to compensation or not.
> 
> I hope some of you guys are not on jury service if I ever go to court!
> 
> Ed.



Um...he asked what the purpose of the policy is and if it was meaningful. So, members of the board provided answers since this member seemed to doubt the procedure. However, on a personal note, If you bet your entire day on one minute, don't be surprised if works against you.

This isn't a power trip as some have intimated. Now that there is an attempt to depart on time, by closing the gate ON TIME (this means the gate should be closed 5 minutes prior...not beginning to process of closing the gate 5 minutes prior) adjust accordingly.

To quote a remark by a host railroad when an Amtrak train showed up at the same time as one of their trains, "tie goes to the home team!" Indeed, that incident was one of the main catalysts for extending the policy of gate times.

That being said, I wish the policy was better publicized. Years ago, SEPTA made their policy perfectly clear by putting it in the actual schedule. If gave the definition of departure time, which basically stated the times in the schedule were the departure times, meaning the train would leave at 0:00 of the advertised time, not the 0:59. Then, it gave an example. If the train is scheduled to depart at 5:20pm, the train should be_ on the move_ at 5:20:01, not 5:20:59 and asked passengers to help them achieve their goals by arriving early.

I'd like to Amtrak add something like that to their timetables, particularly since gate time is being extended.


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## caravanman

I am not one for flogging a dead horse, but I am one for not moving the goalposts...

The ticket agent SAID the gates were closed 10 minutes before departure...

The customer arrived to find the gates closed and trash cans in front of them, and no staff anywhere...

I am not Sherlock Holmes, but no Amtrak staff can close gates, arrange trash cans, and vanish all on the dot of 5 minutes...

As Sheer Luck Holmes, I would deduce that the gates were shut early, in error, as it seemed that no other passengers were around... But like everyone else, I was not there, and am now content to wait on Amtraks verdict.

Ed


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## Jeff

I appreciate everyone's comments and input. I will update this post after I submit my complaint and hear something back from Amtrak.


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## NW cannonball

I've only boarded once at KCY.

It's a long walk from the ticket counter and waiting area along an elevated walkway to the trackside area where there's a stairway (and very slow elevator) to get trackside and board.

How Amtrak expects one employee to man the ticket counter and first gate to the walkway, and also assist passengers (some with mobility problems) at the distant boarding area - dunno.

Long walk. Leave extra time. Like you would first time at NYP, say.

It is what it is


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## zephyr17

I agree, the layout in Kansas City is a long way from the Amtrak waiting area to the platform, and either a very slow elevator or a very long stairway to get down to the platform. It makes sense for them to close off access there well before departure, if nothing else, there are safety issues in "running for the train" there.


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## Lonestar648

Once the gate is closed the Conductor is cleared to depart after the platform is clear of boarding passengers and the doors are closed. A last minute arriving passenger is not being expected by the Conductor, so the train could start moving as the passenger approaches creating a safety issue. Safety First.


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## SP&S

Without getting in on the argument about the OP, I can see a reason for this policy. It's been implemented in PDX for a while now. Here when you walk out of the boarding gate you often have to cross other active tracks. No overpass, no underpass, no gates, just right over the tracks the way it's been done here for a century. Somebody's late, somebody's running, somebody has tunnel vision and doesn't see a dangerous situation, somebody dies, sues, or both. In other stations you might not have to walk over active tracks but running for a train just as it's ready to pull away is best left for the movies.


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## royalc

There are 16 stations listed on Amtrak.com that close the gates 5 minutes prior to departure. If everyone showed up 5 minutes prior to departure to board the train, not only would it be unsafe because of the mad scramble to the train, but the trains would never get out of the station on time.

That's why rules are established.

I'm sorry that you missed your train, but it just appears to me that you gambled and lost.


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## Devil's Advocate

royalc said:


> There are 16 stations listed on Amtrak.com that close the gates 5 minutes prior to departure. If everyone showed up 5 minutes prior to departure to board the train, not only would it be unsafe because of the mad scramble to the train, but the trains would never get out of the station on time. That's why rules are established. I'm sorry that you missed your train, but it just appears to me that you gambled and lost.


How do you explain passenger trains in other countries that don't adhere to such rules without suffering endless pandemonium?


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## jis

In India gates simply don't close. On some trains passengers are still boarding as the last car leaves the platform. It is a sight to behold.  What happens in General Second class unreserved cars is not controlled by anyone including your favorite deity. It just happens.

Fortunately most prestige all reserved trains would have the train all buttoned up by departure time usually.


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## SP&S

Devil's Advocate said:


> royalc said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are 16 stations listed on Amtrak.com that close the gates 5 minutes prior to departure. If everyone showed up 5 minutes prior to departure to board the train, not only would it be unsafe because of the mad scramble to the train, but the trains would never get out of the station on time. That's why rules are established. I'm sorry that you missed your train, but it just appears to me that you gambled and lost.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you explain passenger trains in other countries that don't adhere to such rules without suffering endless pandemonium?
Click to expand...

If this https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTB7j4F4epr_gZAdf4tp3TSmRb5dHe8yVBFN-kVitctQYm3hTkvmw is not pandemonium, it's close enough for me. (Linked to avoid possible copyright infringement.)


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## Devil's Advocate

SP&S said:


> If this https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTB7j4F4epr_gZAdf4tp3TSmRb5dHe8yVBFN-kVitctQYm3hTkvmw is not pandemonium, it's close enough for me. (Linked to avoid possible copyright infringement.)


You may not be aware of this but in countries like France, Germany, and Japan the platforms are open and yet passengers aren't constantly hurting themselves or each other as they make their way to their trains. If you feel the need to reference a massively overpopulated and severely underpaid developing country in order to make Amtrak's boarding rules look reasonable then what sort of point are you really making?


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## jis

Actually riding on the roof in non-electrified territory is kind of fun. I have done it several times. Beats any open car or cars with open windows and such.

As for traveling hanging outside a train, I have done it once during the great Railway strike back in the 70s in India. I traveled from Delhi to Howrah (Kolkata) on the only train that was running, which was a special extra length (24 cars then) version of the venerable Kalka - Delhi - Howrah Mail. All other trains were canceled. The only accommodation I could find was some small space for my bag inside the car and a foothold outside for myself, between Delhi and Kanpur (435km about 7hr+). At Kanpur I managed to find space inside the carriage. Unfortunately upto Allahabad was also diesel traction with two Alco diesels spewing black smoke every so often covering us all in soot. Soon after I found space inside, traction change to electric, with a single WAM-4 class AC unit pulling the entire lot and no more soot. So yeah, been there done that. I would not really call it pandemonium. In their own way things were actually pretty orderly.

BTW, I do agree with DA. Amtrak's boarding policies make sense possibly only in the US nanny state context. While I have told you tales of crowded trains, those are all trains with non-reserved accommodation on extremely heavily used routes. I am certain Amtrak would not know what to do in such situations and the entire outfit would have a collective nervous breakdown. OTOH even in India there are hundreds of fully reserved trains running every day where there is no restriction on anyone for getting to the platform whenever they want. Usually the train doors are shut and locked a minute or two before departure, barring unusual circumstances. In general there is no need to place restrictions. Typically the platforms are quite wide. Train composition and reservation charts are posted on the platform and the charts are also posted on individual cars half an hour or so ahead of departure (on the platform. They are placed on the car as soon as the consist arrives at the platform if later than half hour or so before departure) Everyone knows how to look up their reservation on the chart and is also marked on the reservation ticket (electronic or paper). Each carriage location is marked on overhead signs on the platform. So the loading process is anything but pandemonium. Compared to that what is pandemonium is the loading process in New York Penn Station.


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## Simon

Surely Amtrak should not be leaving before time. They are not the erstwhile British Rail of this training video: http://youtu.be/GB4jAFbuiw8#at=6m14

Also, running before time disrupts traffic regulation and risks causing delays to other trains. That is the last think Amtrak or the host railroads want.


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## AmtrakBlue

Simon said:


> Surely Amtrak should not be leaving before time. They are not the erstwhile British Rail of this training video: http://youtu.be/GB4jAFbuiw8#at=6m14
> 
> Also, running before time disrupts traffic regulation and risks causing delays to other trains. That is the last think Amtrak or the host railroads want.


Nobody said Amtrak was leaving before time. They close the gates leading to the trains early so that all pax are on board by departure time so that they can leave on time. Leaving late can also disrupts traffic regulation.


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## jis

Well, if it is an all reserved train, and everyone that has reservation is already known to be on the train and gates giving access to the train shut 10 minutes before departure, then it is not clear what the harm is for the train to leave a few minutes earlier than the advertised departure time, specially if it helps it keep its slot in the flow on the congested main line.

Airlines do this quite often these days and it helps them keep their slot in congested airports and airways.


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## Palmetto

It would probably take them [Amtrak personnel] those 10 minutes to figure all that out. Then you'd have an on-time departure. :wacko:


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## jis

Palmetto said:


> It would probably take them [Amtrak personnel] those 10 minutes to figure all that out. Then you'd have an on-time departure. :wacko:


That is the general idea for the early gate closure.


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## Palmetto

Royal, I went looking on Amtrak.com for those stations and couldn't find a link. Where is it, please?

Also on this topic, airlines are very clear about being at the gate by a certain time, and it's in their literature as such. Is Amtrak as firm and clear?


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## daybeers

Palmetto said:


> Royal, I went looking on Amtrak.com for those stations and couldn't find a link. Where is it, please?
> 
> Also on this topic, airlines are very clear about being at the gate by a certain time, and it's in their literature as such. Is Amtrak as firm and clear?


I don't know where he found 16 stations, but under Station Advisories on the Service Alerts and Notices page, there are a few stations that list rules similar to this.


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## jis

Palmetto said:


> Also on this topic, airlines are very clear about being at the gate by a certain time, and it's in their literature as such. Is Amtrak as firm and clear?


Indeed, airlines actually have different cutoff times at different airports too, and they are very clearly spelled out. Also, the cutoff time sometimes changes based on security status and such. For example, around Republic Day in India with heightened threat of terrorist attack specially in large cities, the checking cutoff was extended to one hour before departure and boarding cutoff was extended to 20 mins before departure, from the normal 45mins and 15 mins. I got a frantic email from Lufthansa two days before my flight informing me of this at Delhi.


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## Simon

jis said:


> Well, if it is an all reserved train, and everyone that has reservation is already known to be on the train and gates giving access to the train shut 10 minutes before departure, then it is not clear what the harm is for the train to leave a few minutes earlier than the advertised departure time, specially if it helps it keep its slot in the flow on the congested main line.
> 
> Airlines do this quite often these days and it helps them keep their slot in congested airports and airways.



The harm in running before time is that trains get to interlockings before they are expected, and potentially delay other trains expected at the interlocking at the same time. This applies whether it runs early because it leaves early or because the train is ran faster than necessary to keep to time.

Of course running late (even by a minute or two) can often not be made up and can result in delays snowballing. But surely five minutes is more than long enough to get passengers on board. If necessary, tell passengers to board by the closest available door and move to the right car after departure.


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## Hal

jis said:


> Well, if it is an all reserved train, and everyone that has reservation is already known to be on the train and gates giving access to the train shut 10 minutes before departure, then it is not clear what the harm is for the train to leave a few minutes earlier than the advertised departure time, specially if it helps it keep its slot in the flow on the congested main line.
> 
> Airlines do this quite often these days and it helps them keep their slot in congested airports and airways.


A train will not leave earlier than the timetable allows, trouble if they do leave early. But there is a rule that allows the dispatcher to permit a train to leave earlier than the timetable time. It is rare but it happens. They will qualify it with.... if expected passengers are boarded or something like that. The reason that the dispatcher would do that is to facilitate another move. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## royalc

palmetto, on the Amtrak web sight go to "service alerts and notices, and then "Station Advisories". My mistake, daybeers is right, there are 7 stations listed (CHI, DEN, KCY, MKE, PDX, STL, and WAS), the other 9 notices pertain to other matters.


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## Lonestar648

My policy is to plan my arrivals to airports and train stations with 30 minutes more than I need. I even tell my customers and my managers departure times that are 3 minutes earlier because they always squeeze you as tight as possible. As a project Manager I am conditioned to look for all possible scenarios that could cause a problem and plan accordingly. Solution is to plan for delays so you are through the gate with plenty of time before it closes.


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## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> To quote a remark by a host railroad when an Amtrak train showed up at the same time as one of their trains, "tie goes to the home team!"


I assume that was a passenger railroad host. Because if it was a freight railroad host, that quote could get the freight railroad fined.


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