# Don't Wait To Ask, Just Tell



## NE933 (Mar 25, 2012)

A taboo, avoided topic. But they are a part of us. You're reading from one. I'm certain A. Unlimited has more than me alone, though many have fear in speaking out.

Has the working culture of Amtrak (and other railroads) been more accepting in our current day and age? Can a man safely talk about somehing like a nice weekend he spent with his boyfriend, or must he use the pronoun 'she' and 'her' to stave off namecalling and sneering looks?

Whatabout online forums like this one, and others? My observations on passengers of two women, and two guys, can usualy enjoy a trip without incident as long as there is no open heavy petting or foreplay. Sex in a sleeping room has never been challenged, provided the door and drapes are closed. Gay Amtrak employ seems well in service oriented jobs like waiters, sleeper and coach attendants, and baggage handler. Traditional male dominated craft, however, likes of conducors, locomotive engineers, and track maintenance display no same gender warmth on that level at all, and is the danger zone for coming out, a point that is verified by personal conversations with both gay and straight Amtrak employees.

So, chime in! And maybe some of us single and lonely folk can make acquaintance on a train somday soon!


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## EMDF9A (Mar 25, 2012)

I dont work for AMTRAK, but I ride frequently as a T&R guide... and I'm "Family" too. Now I am not going to out anyone, but I know several AMTRAK employees who are part of the family. Are you a member of PSS?


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## NE933 (Mar 25, 2012)

I was, until I bailed out. PSS has a cliquey, closed circle for the initiated feel to it. My feeling, not necessarily true for others.


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## Shawn Ryu (Mar 25, 2012)

I dont want to know what anyone does in his or her bedroom, thats their business.

Only outrage would be if that person admits doing it to kids. Otherwise its fair game. None of our business.

People should never just blurt out that they are gay.


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## George Harris (Mar 25, 2012)

I would suggest that this topic has no more place here than someone using than someone using the site to look for people of like mind and practice in the realm of religion or politics.


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## NE933 (Mar 26, 2012)

Shawn Ryu said:


> People should never just blurt out that they are gay.


Reread my original post andcontemplate its meaning. How do gays feel working for railroads has gotten better or easier for them.

As for blurting out, "I'm a good chess player" and "I'm a Giants fan" are both sudden pointd declaratins we are all used to. Is a fast kiss on the hand from one male to another, the hetero version often seen in diamond jewelry ads, qualify as a blurt of gayness..? No. It is not. Nobody i know of blurts their heteroness, or gayness. Often they just live.


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## the_traveler (Mar 26, 2012)

I am locking this thread, pending moderator's discussion.


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## AlanB (Mar 26, 2012)

[Admin hat on] I'm going to reopen this topic to further discussion. However, let me please warn people to not turn this into a dating thread or a religious or political debate. Such posts will be deleted by the staff. [/Admin hat off]

To the topic at hand, Amtrak actually has a special website setup on this. It can be found at http://amtrakridewithpride.com.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 26, 2012)

Wasn't going to Post on this Topic since I dont normally do Controversial threads :giggle: , but have to say that I think it's valid Inquiriry from a Real Person, not a put on!As was Said,I couldnt Care Less what a Persons Sexuallity is as Long as it Doesnt Involve Minors! (People like that Penn State Monster need to be Locked up Forever!!! :angry2: )

Do think that any Personal Replys should probably be done as PMs, as was said this is Not a Dating Site or a Place to Express Religious or Moral Views! I know we have Many Gay/TransGender etc. Members and Folks, it's 2012, not the 15th Century,  so Gay Bashing and Intolerance Need to Go the Way of Slavery, Segregation, Women Not Being Allowed to Vote etc. etc. I'm old enough to remember when Trains and Busses in the South had Seperate Waiting Rooms for People of Color and "Special Cars" for the Same, and the Busses had a White Line Seperating the Front (White Folks Only!! :wacko: ) from the Back where "The Coloreds" rode! (How Stupid and Sad if you Really Think about this!!  )

In Conclusion, We Really Do Need an Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution which came So Close to Passage!!! in the 1970s but Failed by One State of Passing! (Unfortunately my Home State of Texas was the Deciding Vote in not Passing this Needed Amendment! :help: )As the Old saying Goes, "United we Stand, Divided We fall!" Ignorance and Intolerance are the Last Refuge of Scoundrels, not Patriotism!!


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## amamba (Mar 26, 2012)

Alan, that is interesting that there is already an amtrak pride site. Thanks for sharing it. I had no idea.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Mar 26, 2012)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Only outrage would be if that person admits doing it to kids.


Sorry, but I just have to mention that most pedophiles are straight.

It is just the rare gay pedophile that grabs disproportionate amount of media attention.


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## TraneMan (Mar 26, 2012)

Was happy to see Amtrak having the Pride website.

I know there are a few members on Amtrak who are "family", and we met a couple of them last year on our trip.

I was wondering who on AU are family, and good to see who are.

My partner and I are an everyday people and we are proud who we are.


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 26, 2012)

Also family checking in here.

And I agree that it is an appropriate discussion for the forum. As my husband and I travel in a bedroom and the car attendant wants to prep both beds, but we have to correct them and tell them to only prep the lower bed. Thankfully, I've only ever had polite and courteous responses from on board staff. I don't "blurt out" that I'm gay, but I make no effort to hide my husband or his relationship to me. If it makes you uncomfortable that I steal some of the home-fries off of his plate at breakfast then go find another table, it's not my problem.


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## zepherdude (Mar 26, 2012)

I think the LGBT site is very cool! I had never thought about that issue being an issue. You take all the home fries you want Oldsmoboi!


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## TimePeace (Mar 26, 2012)

Oldsmoboi said:


> Also family checking in here.
> 
> And I agree that it is an appropriate discussion for the forum. As my husband and I travel in a bedroom and the car attendant wants to prep both beds, but we have to correct them and tell them to only prep the lower bed. Thankfully, I've only ever had polite and courteous responses from on board staff. I don't "blurt out" that I'm gay, but I make no effort to hide my husband or his relationship to me. If it makes you uncomfortable that I steal some of the home-fries off of his plate at breakfast then go find another table, it's not my problem.


I think it's all fine as long as you don't steal the home fries off MY plate!

I am glad to see the topic openly discussed. Many of us were brought up in such a way that discussions of alternate sexuality can be awkward, and for that reason alone it is worth having an open conversation here. I agree with a previous poster that it is high time the concept of freedom in America extends to everyone.

And what we all have in common here is that we like riding the trains (even if we sometimes do complain an awful lot about them.)

Peace to you all.


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## AnthonyM (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm glad to see this topic. My partner and I have booked a substantial first Amtrak trip in October and I was a little worried that it may not be friendly. After talking to a few people and now reading this thread I feel good about the trip. I also feel good that I now know that we will both fit on the lower bed since we have six nights in total on trains and I can't wait. I too steel the home fries.....


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## fairviewroad (Mar 26, 2012)

Oldsmoboi said:


> Also family checking in here.
> 
> And I agree that it is an appropriate discussion for the forum. As my husband and I travel in a bedroom and the car attendant wants to prep both beds, but we have to correct them and tell them to only prep the lower bed. Thankfully, I've only ever had polite and courteous responses from on board staff. I don't "blurt out" that I'm gay, but I make no effort to hide my husband or his relationship to me. If it makes you uncomfortable that I steal some of the home-fries off of his plate at breakfast then go find another table, it's not my problem.


I suspect that train attendant preps both beds for opposite sex couples, too! Lots of romantic partners find it more comfortable to have their own bunk!


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## Steve4031 (Mar 26, 2012)

I don't know what it is like now. But in the the first year acela started running, I rode 48 chi to nyp. The dining car crew had differences of opinion between themselves on this issue. Unfortunately I heard profanity in the kitchen, and one of the employees continued his profane discourse to another employee while waiting on me. This could not have been an accepting environment. I hope it is better now.


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 26, 2012)

Maine Rider said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> > Also family checking in here.
> ...


I work in an office of 500 in an organization of 7,000 that prides itself on inclusion and diversity. I speak openly of my husband just as anyone else speaks of their spouse. I realize that there are some out there that feel this is "flaunting my sexuality" but it is nothing of the sort. I am blissfully ignorant of other people's discomfort about my relationship and should someone choose to make it known to me, they can go pound ballast.

The easiest way to disarm people about it is to treat is as a "matter of fact" thing in the first place.

Now Republicans... they should stay in the closet. (joking) But on my last trip on the Cap. Ltd. I ended up eating dinner with a younger gay couple. My husband wasn't with me and I didn't make it known to them that I was gay also. But it turns out they were Sarah Palin supporters on their way to CPAC. Dinner ended with them scurrying back to their room saying "I don't think we should talk about politics anymore!"


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 26, 2012)

AnthonyM said:


> I'm glad to see this topic. My partner and I have booked a substantial first Amtrak trip in October and I was a little worried that it may not be friendly. After talking to a few people and now reading this thread I feel good about the trip. I also feel good that I now know that we will both fit on the lower bed since we have six nights in total on trains and I can't wait. I too steel the home fries.....


Bring extra pillows... the AmPillows are woefully inadequate. I usually bring one of the U shaped travel pillows to help supplement them.


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 26, 2012)

fairviewroad said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> > Also family checking in here.
> ...


I've never been in a position to find out. My impression is that prepping a single bed for two guys traveling in the same bedroom doesn't happen all that often for the car attendant. I'm starting to be on the Cap enough that I'm getting regular attendants who recognize me. My husband only travels with me 25% of the time, so it's not like it happens to often even for us.


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## TraneMan (Mar 26, 2012)

Any of you who are on Facebook, Just started a page for the GLBT membersthere.


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## pennyk (Mar 26, 2012)

I have only encountered one Amtrak crew member who implied to me that she was gay. She was a dining car attendant on the Silver Meteor (I think). During our conversation she spoke often about her partner. I found our conversation very comfortable and it made me feel good that the attendant felt ok talking to me.

I traveled on the Canadian last December and of the small group of us that hung out in the Parlor car, 2 of the couples were gay men. They were treated with respect by the other passengers and crew. In fact, one man was treated even better than the other pax since he had food sensitivities and the chef made special meals for him.


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## gatelouse (Mar 26, 2012)

Agreed that adults who can't tolerate same-sex couples (e.g. at community seating) can go pound sand, or request another table. The onus shouldn't be on the couple.

That said, I'd urge some consideration when younger children are present at the same table. Sharing hash browns can easily be "explained away" to a young grade-schooler (kids do it all the time), but certain public displays of affection or direct references to husband or wife may raise uncomfortable questions from a child to a parent that the parent isn't yet prepared to answer.

I know that some believe that children should be taught to appreciate all lifestyles from an early age, but it isn't the child's fault if the parent chooses to defer certain discussions for a later age.


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## TimePeace (Mar 26, 2012)

gatelouse said:


> Agreed that adults who can't tolerate same-sex couples (e.g. at community seating) can go pound sand, or request another table. The onus shouldn't be on the couple.
> 
> That said, I'd urge some consideration when younger children are present at the same table. Sharing hash browns can easily be "explained away" to a young grade-schooler (kids do it all the time), but certain public displays of affection or direct references to husband or wife may raise uncomfortable questions from a child to a parent that the parent isn't yet prepared to answer.
> 
> I know that some believe that children should be taught to appreciate all lifestyles from an early age, but it isn't the child's fault if the parent chooses to defer certain discussions for a later age.


Well said. Thank you.


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 26, 2012)

gatelouse said:


> Agreed that adults who can't tolerate same-sex couples (e.g. at community seating) can go pound sand, or request another table. The onus shouldn't be on the couple.
> 
> That said, I'd urge some consideration when younger children are present at the same table. Sharing hash browns can easily be "explained away" to a young grade-schooler (kids do it all the time), but certain public displays of affection or direct references to husband or wife may raise uncomfortable questions from a child to a parent that the parent isn't yet prepared to answer.
> 
> I know that some believe that children should be taught to appreciate all lifestyles from an early age, but it isn't the child's fault if the parent chooses to defer certain discussions for a later age.


In my experience, it is the children who need the least amount of explaining to on the subject and are also the best behaved and most polite on average. I'm not trying to start a debate on it, but from multiple 1st and 3rd hand experiences, children have the best possible reaction to it unless their parents teach them to react badly. The typical response is some variation of this: "You married each other? That's funny! I'm going to go play ping pong now, you can come play if you want to." *

*direct quote

It's not sex ed, it is social ed.

That said, I'm not super overt in public anyway, but "yes dear" and "hun could you pass the ketchup" are normal parts of speech for me.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 26, 2012)

slightly off topic but there was a TV show called what would you do. It featured hidden cameras and different situations. One was one guy got down on his knees and proposed with a ring in a public restaurant. I think allot of people got offended buy it before they knew it was a set up.Another featured a woman wanting to get a tuxedo and the clerk refused to sell it to her when her girlfriend came in. All a setup but it shows how people react to these type if things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primetime:_What_Would_You_Do%3F


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 26, 2012)

I've seen a few of the episodes and they trouble me. In a couple instances, the actor who was being paid to be the "offensive one" went too far over the top.


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## Ryan (Mar 26, 2012)

Great idea for a thread- not something that I've ever considered, but it's cool to see that Amtrak is such a supportive employer.

I'm also surprised to see so many openly folks out in the open here (and glad to be part of a forum where people are that accepting).

As far as the kids go, we just ran across this with my stepson. The wife was watching one of those stupid wedding TV shows, which happened to be about two men getting married. Alexander said something to the effect of "You mean that two boys can get married"? My wife simply said that yes, that was what some people did. He said "Oh cool", and that was the end of it. If you don't make a big deal about it, the kids won't even realize that some people do (hopefully until much later).


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 26, 2012)

Ryan, that has been my exact type of experience with it. My husband has 6 nieces and nephews ranging from 5 to 17, For the younger ones at least, I've always just been part of the family, and I "go with" their Uncle Albert. We're a set. No explanation needed. For the older ones, I don't know if there were ever questions asked of their parents about it. It's just never been an issue.


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## sportbiker (Mar 26, 2012)

A few years ago, four of us (two gay couples) did a Zephyr run from CHI to EMY. OBS treated us as we would expect to be treated. No, wait, I take that back. Some of the dining car attendants all but adopted us for the duration of the trip. But then, they were black women. You know what they say about the connection between black women and gay men… :lol:


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## gatelouse (Mar 26, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> slightly off topic but there was a TV show called what would you do. It featured hidden cameras and different situations. One was one guy got down on his knees and proposed with a ring in a public restaurant. I think allot of people got offended buy it before they knew it was a set up.Another featured a woman wanting to get a tuxedo and the clerk refused to sell it to her when her girlfriend came in. All a setup but it shows how people react to these type if things.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primetime:_What_Would_You_Do%3F


In real life perhaps, but on the train, I think all will be treated well. LD passengers and crew are exposed and acclimated to interacting with a huge diversity of people. I remember having lunch with three folks from rural WV on a Superliner Cardinal and leaving with my stereotypes about Appalachians completely erased. Though I didn't fit in with them at all, they were all kind and engaging. I've seen train crews treat the frequent Amish travelers just like every other passenger--with rudeness. (Only kidding.)

Very good discussion, and thanks for the tips regarding kids. While I'm not completely sold on the idea that most kids will acknowledge and move on without concern--my little one is unusually persistent and inquisitive to anything different or new--it's the best approach I've heard so far.


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## guest (Mar 26, 2012)

> *I've seen train crews treat the frequent Amish travelers just like every other passenger--with rudeness. (Only kidding.)*


Now THAT'S funny!

Reminds me of a line that could be applied to SOME Amtrak employees:

"I'm not a racist, I hate everyone equally without regard to race, creed, color, gender or place of origin."


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 27, 2012)

There is nothing- NOTHING- worse then being uncomfortable with who you are- except people who work to make you more so.


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## NE933 (Mar 27, 2012)

Wow, I am truly amazed, in a very good way, about what I've just seen (i haven't been to a computer since late afternoon). My meds are working so will try to sound like it makes sense:

Thank you to Alan and the other administrators who initially saw a war breaking out and did the right thing of frezzing the topic, but after much careful conversation, took the risk of reopening it with sensible conditions. And what did we get? Several A.U. people came forward to reveal their joys and struggles with having same sex partners, with lots of inclusion. Sometimes it is assumed that gay men account for much of pedophile activity; in fact, I deplore these rapists who harm children. My 'adult' relations are with consentual adults; never the less, there is much more to my life: I am totally gaga googoo over Amtrak and self taught a proficient expertness on it. And I'm very big on existential stuff, and most of you see me weave these things into rail conversations as that's how i see the world and universe.

The meds are taking hold!!!! It's great to belong to such a caring group of civil minded people. I know some folks will cringe on thinking about how I and others get intimate, and that's ok. Just please, if I ever am blessed to find somebody and I want to hold his hand for a second or run my finger thru his hair, I hope you can be happy for us. And here's a kicker, there's a belief out there that gays are angry at straights. In fact, I am happy for anyone who is in good fortune to have an intimate bond with somebody else, straight or gay. When I see a hetero couple celebrating an anniversary, I am very happy for them and wish them eternal joy together with no hang ups or resentment, because all of us know that any relationship takes lots and lots of very hard work, and sometimes it works out, sometimes it crashes. We do the work because ultimately it's worth all the trouble. There's no greater joy than finding the right individual to share life with, the laughs and tears, the quiet and the noisy. Thanks once more for your patience.

Edited for clarity, content, fine tuning.


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## AlanB (Mar 27, 2012)

AnthonyM said:


> I also feel good that I now know that we will both fit on the lower bed since we have six nights in total on trains and I can't wait.


Just to be clear, if you've booked a Bedroom in the sleeping car, then you can probably fit on the lower bed if you like. However, if you've booked a Roomette in the sleeping car, you'll find things very tight even if you're both very skinny.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Mar 27, 2012)

Oldsmoboi said:


> In my experience, it is the children who need the least amount of explaining to on the subject and are also the best behaved and most polite on average. I'm not trying to start a debate on it, but from multiple 1st and 3rd hand experiences, children have the best possible reaction to it unless their parents teach them to react badly.


Very well said. :hi:


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Mar 27, 2012)

gatelouse said:


> That said, I'd urge some consideration when younger children are present at the same table. Sharing hash browns can easily be "explained away" to a young grade-schooler (kids do it all the time), but certain public displays of affection or direct references to husband or wife may raise uncomfortable questions from a child to a parent that the parent isn't yet prepared to answer.


I would find "public displays of affection" from even straight couple equally inappropriate. :wub:

I would not want some straight couple making out, on the other side of the dinner table from my family, while waiting for our salads. Such a sight could easily yield uncomfortable questions from my child.


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## benjibear (Mar 27, 2012)

Making out would be inappropriate but I don't think certain public displays of affection are bad. An arm around, kiss on the cheek, holding hands, etc. would be OK for straight or gay couples. Deep kissing, groping, etc. would be inappropriate in the diner.

As far as kids, I just want to throw one more thing out. The traditional family (mother, father, marriage, kids) is not neccessarily the norm in today's world. In my wife's school, granted urban small city, there are very few kids that come from two parent married households. They don't get the concept of marriage and the traditional couple. They didn't understand when I was in that me and my wife are married, that is why we have the same last name (no we are not brother and sister), and we live in the same house.


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 27, 2012)

sportbiker said:


> A few years ago, four of us (two gay couples) did a Zephyr run from CHI to EMY. OBS treated us as we would expect to be treated. No, wait, I take that back. Some of the dining car attendants all but adopted us for the duration of the trip. But then, they were black women. You know what they say about the connection between black women and gay men… :lol:


LOL! That's me with at least two of the dining car staff on the Cap. I feel like it's my grandmother doting over me.


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 27, 2012)

.. and I'm very happy and pleasantly surprised about the reaction around here. I know the moderators were watching, but I expected a bit of a battle.


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## yarrow (Mar 27, 2012)

George Harris said:


> I would suggest that this topic has no more place here than someone using than someone using the site to look for people of like mind and practice in the realm of religion or politics.


just wanted to note that, for once, i agree with George


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## NE933 (Mar 27, 2012)

Oldsmoboi said:


> .. and I'm very happy and pleasantly surprised about the reaction around here. I know the moderators were watching, but I expected a bit of a battle.


Me too, but like I once told a friend: MOST of the time, people get into wars when they look for it. Don't look for it, look for peace or at least neutrality instead, and that's what you'll take home.

As for this topic, I wanted to engage anyone who cared to in discussion, maybe debate, not fights or battles. That's unhealthy, but debating and conversing uncovers solutions to problems, and it keeps us mentally sharp.


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 27, 2012)

yarrow said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest that this topic has no more place here than someone using than someone using the site to look for people of like mind and practice in the realm of religion or politics.
> ...


I disagree because it is a fact that gays and lesbians are still being treated disrespectfully by some segments of society simply for the mere fact that we exist. You may be unfamiliar with it, but the GLBT crowd still has discussions amongst ourselves as to which businesses we can or cannot frequent without being treated as forth class customers or with outright hostility directed towards us.

I am happy for the fact that my experiences on Amtrak, and the others reported here so far, have all been positive ones.


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## jb64 (Mar 27, 2012)

Oldsmoboi said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > George Harris said:
> ...


So that would be a discussion appropriate for that kind of forum (businesses friendly to GLBT), but has little to do with trains. I could care less what a person's preferences/orientation is, to be honest, so I don't judge one way or another but I also fail to see why this is an appropriate thread for a forum dedicated to trains and train travel. I agree with George and Yarrow. Maybe someone should start a Libertarians who like Amtrak thread ,after we have a Republicans who ride Amtrak and a Democrats who support Passenger Rail threads, of course. Who is going to start the Catholics on the rails thread?


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## Ryan (Mar 27, 2012)

jb64 said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


Sorry, but I disagree with you, yarrow and George.
"How friendly is Amtrak to people of differing orientations" sounds perfectly appropriate to a forum dedicated to Amtrak. More importantly, the moderators feel that way as well.

So, if you're not interested in participating in such a discussion, you're not required to click on the thread.

Problem solved.


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## the_traveler (Mar 27, 2012)

[Moderator's hat on]

I feel the last few posts were not really necessary. I know that some may disagree with the subject or discussion of the topic, but there is this little thing in the US Constitution called "Freedom of Speech". If the topic or discussion bothers you, do as Ryan suggests and not click in the thread! Even I many times do not click on threads that do not interest me.

You may disagree with the subject matter, but as in the voting booth, you are not required to vote or say anything.

And no, I am not gay. I just feel that everyone has the same rights.

You say this is not the right subject for AU?



How about if Amtrak puts out a press release stating "As of April 1, 2012, we will not hire any females, blacks, gays, lesbians, nor will we stop at any station with a population within 50 miles of more than 5% of such"? Would it then be appropriate for AU?





Let's please keep our comments on the subject in this thread only. You need not read the thread or respond if you think otherwise.

[Moderator's hat off]


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## NE933 (Mar 27, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> [Moderator's hat off]


Couldn't have said it better myself, so my 'hat's off' to you, Traveler!

I like trains and guys; as long as people hate me for the guys part, I'll forever be on watching for the knife in my back they want to plunge in. They know who they are.

Now let's get on Amtrak to our dream place and get to work in building those new tracks, rail cars, locomotives, and let's not forget cooking up a masterpiece in the Indianpolis 8400 Diner.


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 27, 2012)

I didn't bring up specific other businesses pro or against on purpose. The purpose of this thread is about Amtrak's relationship with GLBT riders and employees. There isn't a thread on the religious, ethnic, or racial relationship because those are protected classes that no company can discriminate against even if they wanted to (though I think there was a thread about the Amish).

Notice the shyness at how this thread was started. In most of this country is is still legal to fire, evict, or refuse service to a person based on real or perceived sexuality. It is highly encouraging to me that Amtrak has a strong stated policy against that sort of discrimination. It gives me just one more reason, amongst the many I already have, to support Amtrak.

Like it or not, GLBT passengers do still have a slightly different experience traveling on Amtrak. If you read back a bit, you'll see that my report of politely correcting a sleeping car attendant about the bedroom arrangements went over just fine and also reassured another future traveler about the bedroom accommodations with his partner. I primarily use Roomettes for Biz travel between Pittsburgh and Chicago and have shared my experience of cost-justifying it to my company.... it's just another story to share.

Isn't the point of AU to share our experiences? Isn't that what a sub-group of AU membership is doing here?


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## jb64 (Mar 27, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> [Moderator's hat on]
> 
> I feel the last few posts were not really necessary. I know that some may disagree with the subject or discussion of the topic, but there is this little thing in the US Constitution called "Freedom of Speech". If the topic or discussion bothers you, do as Ryan suggests and not click in the thread! Even I many times do not click on threads that do not interest me.
> 
> ...


I don't follow your logic at all; but since your "freedom of speech" only works one way and we are not allowed (since this message came from a moderator) to disagree or communicate that we disagree, I will not post any further on this subject. Happy rails to everyone, regardless of race, gender, age, religious belief, sexual preference, etc. etc. etc.


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## amamba (Mar 27, 2012)

This thread seems perfectly appropriate to me, since it is about amtrak and the experiences that LBGT members have had while on the train.

I seem to recall that we have had other threads where women have specifically inquired as to whether they would feel safe while traveling alone. I don't see how this thread differs from that.


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## OBS (Mar 27, 2012)

My thanks, also, for introducing this subject. As a 25 year Amtrak employee, I was thrilled a couple years ago, that since I am a NY resident, I was able to add my partner to my railpass,as well as to my health insurance (although I have to pay addl. taxes on that benefit.) Amtrak, as an employer, takes seriously their role ensuring that each employee is treated equally. Also thanks for providing the link for the employee website. I was not aware of it but will check it out.


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## AnthonyM (Mar 27, 2012)

AlanB said:


> AnthonyM said:
> 
> 
> > I also feel good that I now know that we will both fit on the lower bed since we have six nights in total on trains and I can't wait.
> ...



Definitely a bedroom. I couldn't go without a private bathroom and a bit of space and the bedrooms look nice and comfortable.


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## the_traveler (Mar 27, 2012)

[AU Member speaking]

Just remember that a server on Amtrak (or at any other location) can provide either good or bad service! You would not know if they are straight, gay or lesbian unless they come out and tell you.

Thus, by that statement, we should not allow any threads about good or bad Amtrak employees, unless the poster has asked (and it can be verified) that the employee is straight! That seems to be what those who say that this thread is inappropriate for AU are saying!






I say we treat all human beings as human beings!


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## the_traveler (Mar 27, 2012)

In my post #47 above, I mentioned "Freedom of Speech". That was wrong.

Because AU is a privately owned and operated site, and not publicly owned, the Freedom of Speech rule does not apply. But I still hope that we can treat all human beings as human beings never the less!


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## Montanan (Mar 27, 2012)

As another member of the "family" that's being discussed here, I just wanted to add my words of thanks for the creation of this thread, and the supportive comments from the majority of those who have posted. I do think it's a valid topic for a forum such as this ... and I also think that all in all, the subject's not really all that big a deal. And it's becoming less and less of a big deal all the time, which is extremely cool.


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## NE933 (Mar 27, 2012)

jb64 said:


> So that would be a discussion appropriate for that kind of forum (businesses friendly to GLBT), but has little to do with trains.


I shall want any person or otherwise who operates trains to be GLBT friendly otherwise I wouldn't be able to enjoy it.


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## New Lou (Mar 27, 2012)

NE933 said:


> I shall want any person or otherwise who operates trains to be GLBT friendly otherwise I wouldn't be able to enjoy it.


I would have to disagree.

Honestly, it is unnecessary for either of you to know the sexual opinions of the other. As long as that person does his/her job and does not treat you any differently, his/her sexual preferences and opinions should not matter when it comes to train travel.

I want the people on the train to be PEOPLE friendly, regardless of their religious, moral and ethical ideas.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 27, 2012)

New Lou said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > I shall want any person or otherwise who operates trains to be GLBT friendly otherwise I wouldn't be able to enjoy it.
> ...


:hi: Well Said!


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 27, 2012)

As mentioned earlier, in the case of bedroom accommodations, sometimes it is necessary that sexuality is made known. In my experience, Amtrak staff has been nothing less than professional.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 27, 2012)

If you like to travel by train then, by all means, welcome aboard. Gay, lesbian, straight, abstinent, whatever.


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## NE933 (Mar 27, 2012)

New Lou said:


> I want the people on the train to be PEOPLE friendly, regardless of their religious, moral and ethical ideas.


But that's the trouble: all to often "People Friendly " has a subterfuge of all people EXCEPT if you're gay or lesbian. I want the same thing as you in that sentence but sadly it is not always like that, and judging from the reaches of this thread there is still enough indifference to cause problems in the lives of people who work for rail, non rail groups. How do i know? I have religious and moral ideas that are generally decent I think but still run into homophobic forces. Therefore there is still much work ahead to make rail and the rest of the planet a livable place. A place where I can tell another man on an Amtrak coach "I love you" without a fellow rider calling us fa--ots, or stating wrongly that we are advertising our bedroom practices just from observing a nice string of words being spoken from one person to another.

Let me cite a discussion on another rail forum about a member on that website who statet he was Caucasian, was traveling in a bedroom with his wife who was a black woman, and a fellow dining car patron who asked him how he paid for his 'maid' to ride in the room, and whether he was watching her kids (the two children were THEIRS) as a favor to get a reduced price.


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## NE933 (Mar 27, 2012)

Amtrak is floating in one of the two Niantic spans in Connecticut that will serve a long long overdue replacement of the aging bridges, and let's hope Portal over Hackensack quickly follows! The Phase 1 scheme will adorn several Genesis diesels. Several Viewliner passenger couples enjoyed various expressions of affection in male/female, female/female, and male/male mixes. A southbound Keystone Express i was on was cabless, meaning it will either wye at the Philly Zoo subway OR the AEM-7 will have to have been repositioned.

Now let's play a game: arrange these commonplace events in the order in which they happened.


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## Donctor (Mar 27, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Now let's play a game: arrange these commonplace events in the order in which they happened.


Is this serious?


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## the_traveler (Mar 27, 2012)

Donctor said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > Now let's play a game: arrange these commonplace events in the order in which they happened.
> ...


[AU member speaking]

As serious as some of the (unfounded) comments that have been (or tried to be) posted to this thread!

I say let's get along with all *HUMANS*, whether they are white, black, male, female, single, couple, straight, gay, lesbian, young, old, etc... - if we did,there would not be a need for this thread!


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## NE933 (Mar 28, 2012)

Building a movable rail bridge is extremely serious (ask the structural engineers how many books they had to read in order to graduate into a credentialed, degree holding builder of structures that will carry billions of living souls over its lifetime). I want the bridges i cross to hold up, don't you? Our loved ones probably want the same too, so bridges are serious.

A railroad like Amtrak making a decision about painting its engine fleet into a well recognized anniversary based design is one involving public relations and cost. Checkmark, that's serious.

Passengers, and people in general, finding happiness is pretty serious too. Without it we'd all be sick.

Lastly, the Keystone train anomaly not only fills the cameras of railfans like us, but it impacts Amtrak's ability to stay on schedule without cutting into the lunch hour of the relieving engineer who must now do some extra manuevering in the absence of the cabcar. Yep, serious.

So what was the order of occurrence for these serious and important events? Well, they happened simultaneously, and each of the four items are ALL IMPORTANT and serious rail, and human, related items that directly relate to some, not all, of us train loving people.


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## Reno89502 (Mar 28, 2012)

I have to say that me and my partner have been traveling Amtrak for years, and we have never had any kind of problem from either passengers or crew. In fact, we are leaving Sunday for our trip on the Crescent from PHL to NOL. I do have to say that I have found this thread to be very interesting.


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## guest (Mar 28, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> Donctor said:
> 
> 
> > NE933 said:
> ...


. Which unfounded comments?


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## the_traveler (Mar 28, 2012)

See post #5 (I'm going to take Amtrak to find other Catholics/Baptist/Jews/etc...



), post #42 and post #45 for instance. I think amamba said it best in post #51!

And I'm posting this as another AU member.


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## Dan O (Mar 28, 2012)

> I seem to recall that we have had other threads where women have specifically inquired as to whether they would feel safe while traveling alone. I don't see how this thread differs from that.


That seems more like a safety issure rather than if Amtrak will be friendly to women or not. I think this is more like will Amtrak be friendly to me and my 3 children or will they hassle me?

I must say from this thread, I would rather be LGBT than have children as quite often folks have mentioned they will bring young children along on a train trip and the responses have been on occasion much more insulting than anything I have read in this thread.



> As mentioned earlier, in the case of bedroom accommodations, sometimes it is necessary that sexuality is made known. In my experience, Amtrak staff has been nothing less than professional.


I am not sure why sexuality would have to be made known. I would imagine adult brothers or sisters could share a room without giving any information regarding their sexuality.



> Honestly, it is unnecessary for either of you to know the sexual opinions of the other. As long as that person does his/her job and does not treat you any differently, his/her sexual preferences and opinions should not matter when it comes to train travel.
> 
> I want the people on the train to be PEOPLE friendly, regardless of their religious, moral and ethical ideas.


I totally agree. I deal with the public quite a bit and some of the people lead lives that I do not entirely approve of but that is not an issue in how they are treated. Everyone deserves to be treated professionally.

Dano


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## Ryan (Mar 28, 2012)

Dan O said:


> I must say from this thread, I would rather be LGBT than have children as quite often folks have mentioned they will bring young children along on a train trip and the responses have been on occasion much more insulting than anything I have read in this thread.


Good point.



Dan O said:


> > As mentioned earlier, in the case of bedroom accommodations, sometimes it is necessary that sexuality is made known. In my experience, Amtrak staff has been nothing less than professional.
> 
> 
> I am not sure why sexuality would have to be made known. I would imagine adult brothers or sisters could share a room without giving any information regarding their sexuality.


I'm not typically in the habit of sharing the lower bunk in a bedroom with my sister. My wife on the other hand...


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## yarrow (Mar 28, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> See post #5 (I'm going to take Amtrak to find other Catholics/Baptist/Jews/etc...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i think you have somewhat misconstrued, at least what i took as george's meaning. i don't appreciate my comment being referred to as unfounded. we both may have foundations for our views and still not agree. i must say i often find your posts flavored with a bit of pseudo-omnipotence. in our family we have one gay son and one transgender so let us go back to talking about trains


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## Dan O (Mar 28, 2012)

> I'm not typically in the habit of sharing the lower bunk in a bedroom with my sister. My wife on the other hand...


Poorly worded on my part. I meant brothers traveling together could share beds together. Sisters/cousins may do the same thing without anyone giving a thought to their sexuality just because they are the same sex.

Dano


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## Ryan (Mar 28, 2012)

No, sorry. Poorly worded on my part. My point was that I would think it usual for two siblings (same sex or not) to share a lower in a bedroom when there is a perfectly serviceable upper right there.

My assumption would be (and maybe I'm way off base) is that two people sharing a lower are romantically involved, be it two guys, two gals or one of each.



yarrow said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > See post #5 (I'm going to take Amtrak to find other Catholics/Baptist/Jews/etc...
> ...


Well by all means, share the foundation of your post!


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## D.P. Roberts (Mar 28, 2012)

Before I put my two cents in, let me just say that I'm not directing this at any particular poster or comments.

1) Many (if not most) of the posts in this thread seem to be directed to whether this thread "ought" to exist or not. To me, if it's related to Amtrak travel, why not? The little bit of data in this thread isn't going to crash the server. I mean, come on - there are only about twenty kazillion threads about the Sunset service east of New Orleans, and that doesn't even exist! That horse has been shot, buried, dug up again, run over, burned up, left to rot, given a Viking burial at sea, and dragged up again. Surely, if this forum can support thousands of threads about an entirely fictional train service, we can allow one more thread many people seem to think is valid!

2) Look at the questions the OP and others have posted. This is not a "meet and greet" for people of certain beliefs or preferences. They're asking basic questions like "can we share a table or a room without snide comments from Amtrak staff?" It sounds like most people agree that GLBT travelers should be treated equally. Unfortunately, that theory doesn't always work out in practice, and I think it's very reasonable to ask "when" or "how often" such problems arise.


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## the_traveler (Mar 28, 2012)

Ryan said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


I am posting this as a moderator!

I must agree with Ryan in this. It seems you (per the statement regarding your family highlighted above) should show some compassion. You have contradicted yourself by your previous post, listed below.



yarrow said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > *I would suggest that this topic has no more place here than someone using than someone using the site to look for people of like mind and practice *in the realm of religion or politics.
> ...


Nowhere in any of the previous post has anyone "tried to use this site to look for people of like mind and practice"!



I have only read posts about how people are treated on trains!





Please explain what I have "misconstrued"?





And to all others, please keep comments in this thread confined to trains, as most posts have been. Thank you!

[Moderator hat off]


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## haolerider (Mar 29, 2012)

I think we all agree that everyone should be treated equally and that these posts are appropriate for this forum, but it seems that the topic has run its course.


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## NE933 (Mar 29, 2012)

haolerider said:


> ... but it seems that the topic has run its course.


But its course has hardly finished the run, and so therefore it shall continue until we the people have exhausted all things to say, and that only happens when all interested people have gone to the afterlife. My fingers are still on the keyboard and so are those of other members, so as it was beautifully sung by Sonny and Cher, the Beat Goes On.

Edit to back up my words: I started this topic this past Sunday night, March 25, 2012, and already it is up to over 2,300 hits, a quantity proving the blatant inaccuracy of any claim it has run it's course. That may be what some wish for in their subconscious, but I'm still taking Amtrak, and I'll use whatever options are necessary for the trains to continue and for my safety and health to be ensured.


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## henry kisor (Mar 29, 2012)

I am grateful for this post. Back in 1994 I published a book called "Zephyr." Among other things I asked a train chief about gay/lesbian issues and he said the only problem he had with them was assigning rooms to crew members -- he had to be sure that straights wouldn't mind bunking with gays and sometimes had to juggle the assignments. I'm updating the book, and I've wondered how the issue has evolved over the years. This thread has been most illuminating, and I thank all the participants in it.


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## AlanB (Mar 29, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Edit to back up my words: I started this topic this past Sunday night, March 25, 2012, and already it is up to over 2,300 hits, a quantity proving the blatant inaccuracy of any claim it has run it's course. That may be what some wish for in their subconscious, but I'm still taking Amtrak, and I'll use whatever options are necessary for the trains to continue and for my safety and health to be ensured.


That's not unique hits, meaning that 2,300 different people have not read the topic. I've probably added at least 100 hits myself with all my visits to this topic and the moderating staff probably accounts for at least 200 hits.

Not trying to deflate your enthusiasm, but want to be sure that you understand just what a "hit" means.


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## NE933 (Mar 29, 2012)

henry kisor said:


> I am grateful for this post. Back in 1994 I published a book called "Zephyr." Among other things I asked a train chief about gay/lesbian issues and he said the only problem he had with them was assigning rooms to crew members -- he had to be sure that straights wouldn't mind bunking with gays and sometimes had to juggle the assignments. I'm updating the book, and I've wondered how the issue has evolved over the years. This thread has been most illuminating, and I thank all the participants in it.


I read it!! Loved the book, and kept it on my bookcase shelf. Very knowledgeable things you wrote in there, especially things that are not directly pertaining to the operations of a railroad blended with things that are. I remember the excerpts about passenger sexual encounters, along with the upcoming high speed trainset order that went from 26, to twelve, then (I believe) 18. There were supposed to be two fossil fueled trainsets that ultimately become one Acela diesel which then degraded into the JetTrain fiasco.

Well, soon it will be twenty years from your "Zephyr" book. Are you contemplating doing a "Zephyr II"?! I hope?!

;-)


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## the_traveler (Mar 29, 2012)

haolerider said:


> I think we all agree that everyone should be treated equally and that these posts are appropriate for this forum, but it seems that the topic has run its course.


I respectfully agree with NE933. If this thread has indeed run it's course, then there would be no more post to the thread. Since it involves Amtrak (both passengers and employees), why should it be closed, unless it gets out of hand?





If nobody else makes a post, it will drop down out if sight, and die a slow natural death. I for one am not going to speed things up, unless is is absolutely necessary - which I hope is not necessary.


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## NE933 (Mar 29, 2012)

AlanB said:


> That's not unique hits, meaning that 2,300 different people have not read the topic. I've probably added at least 100 hits myself with all my visits to this topic and the moderating staff probably accounts for at least 200 hits.
> 
> Not trying to deflate your enthusiasm, but want to be sure that you understand just what a "hit" means.


Yes! And no, my enthusiasm is not injured; even if we subtracted your 100 and my 100 and divided the 2,100 into the number of AU members who visited, counting them once no matter how many times they hit the thread, I'd still be impressed. Meaning: for hyperbolic metaphor, if one individual visited all two thousand plus times, I'm still enthused. Worried about the person's obsession in that fictional example, but still enthused. Clearly we can deduce scientifically that visitors to this thread are thinking about more than just the trains aspect of Amtrak, which is what author Henry K. described a few moments ago in referencing to his 1994 "Zephyr" book.


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## henry kisor (Mar 29, 2012)

"Zephyr" will be reissued in an ebook edition within a week or 10 days. The bulk of the book remains as written but there will be a long Epilogue that refreshes all (hopefully) the facts and brings up to date the stories of the train crew. There will also be a new selection of photographs. I'm just returning from Emeryville on No. 6 after one more photo mission, and as I write this we've just left Mt. Pleasant, Iowa.


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## the_traveler (Mar 29, 2012)

henry kisor said:


> "Zephyr" will be reissued in an ebook edition within a week or 10 days. The bulk of the book remains as written but there will be a long Epilogue that refreshes all (hopefully) the facts and brings up to date the stories of the train crew. There will also be a new selection of photographs.


I look forward to it, as I prefer to read ebooks. Will it be on iTunes?



(I have an iPhone and soon will have an iPad.)


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## Oldsmoboi (Mar 29, 2012)

I'll pick it up on the Nook if you remind me


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## TimePeace (Mar 29, 2012)

henry kisor said:


> I am grateful for this post. Back in 1994 I published a book called "Zephyr." Among other things I asked a train chief about gay/lesbian issues and he said the only problem he had with them was assigning rooms to crew members -- he had to be sure that straights wouldn't mind bunking with gays and sometimes had to juggle the assignments. I'm updating the book, and I've wondered how the issue has evolved over the years. This thread has been most illuminating, and I thank all the participants in it.


Well this is a bit off topic but I need to insert this here anyway:

Mr Kisor's book, Zephyr, is what made me consider riding on Amtrak when it first came out. I had no idea the service was anything like he described it. So I took a couple of trips from Boston to North Carolina to visit family, and took my then little kids, and it was wonderful.

The a few years later I actually took the Zephyr end to end, and prior to going I read the book again, and loved it again. Quite a few things had changed since he wrote it, but it was still very meaningful.

If you have not read Zephyr, you are missing out. I for one am looking forward to the new edition.

OK sorry for straying off topic but...

I too have liked this thread for its frankness. I don't mind if it stays active, and if I get bored I'll stop reading it. Text doesn't use much bandwidth anyhow.


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## Montanan (Mar 29, 2012)

henry kisor said:


> "Zephyr" will be reissued in an ebook edition within a week or 10 days. The bulk of the book remains as written but there will be a long Epilogue that refreshes all (hopefully) the facts and brings up to date the stories of the train crew. There will also be a new selection of photographs. I'm just returning from Emeryville on No. 6 after one more photo mission, and as I write this we've just left Mt. Pleasant, Iowa.


Great to hear! I too own a copy of the original edition, and I remember it as a good read.


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## Trogdor (Mar 29, 2012)

henry kisor said:


> I am grateful for this post. Back in 1994 I published a book called "Zephyr." Among other things I asked a train chief about gay/lesbian issues and he said the only problem he had with them was assigning rooms to crew members -- he had to be sure that straights wouldn't mind bunking with gays and sometimes had to juggle the assignments. I'm updating the book, and I've wondered how the issue has evolved over the years. This thread has been most illuminating, and I thank all the participants in it.


Each crew member gets his/her own room these days, so no issues with those who don't like their roommates.


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## amamba (Mar 29, 2012)

Oh, I would love to buy "zephyr" for the kindle. Please keep us posted, henry.


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## sportbiker (Mar 29, 2012)

Henry: I read your book prior to our group outing [pun intended] on the Zephyr. Prior to that trip, my only experience was short turns on the Surfliner, so I had a newbie's concerns about venturing outside the safe cocoon of Amtrak California. Your book was invaluable.


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## guest employee (Mar 29, 2012)

Okay, here goes - pardon my posting of "War and Peace"...

I am a current OBS employee out of LAX. I've posted on here before - I'm the one who's the "****" about terminology (it's TA/S, not "SCA") Here are some answers to a lot of questions: A LARGE percentage of Amtrak employees are gay (or GLBT if you prefer, as we do have all those and more), in every department, including several members of upper management. Like other parts of the travel industry, gay people tend more toward the front line (i.e., OBS is something like a quarter gay, where TandE, Mechanical, etc., tend to be more like 10 percent, maybe a little more. Amtrak has an explicit nondiscrimination policy toward all LGBT people. Some gay people working for Amtrak are more obvious than others, but you can bet there there are at least one or two on every single long distance train crew, and as likely as not on Sufliners (and Acela, etc.).

Attitudes vary, but most nongay employees are tolerant to embracing of their gay coworkers. Those who aren't wisely stay silent about it, as they could be reported to the Diversity Office for making homophobic statements, as they could for making statements that are sexist or racist.

As far as passengers, there's an informal "one strike" rule. If someone makes a homophobic (or racist or sexist) statement, and the crew is feeling generous, they will get one warning that such language is not acceptable. Company policy (as well as state and Federal law) allow those who won't or can't comply to be removed for being disruptive.

I treat our many gay travelers (and again, in the travel industry, the population of passengers who are LGBT is MUCH higher that the general population) exactly the same as the nongay travelers. I shot down a gay man who complained about a heterosexual couple who were holding hands and kissing (appropriately...they weren't going up shirts or down pants), just as I would if the situation were reversed. I never "assume" about anyone's sexuality or relationship status, unless they make it clear. As far as my own sexuality, I never disclose unless I'm asked. If someone asks about my girlfriend (and if I'm dating someone), I'll correct the pronoun for them.

As far as this thread, I feel it is appropriate for this forum, as would be discussions of religion or politics, if they relate to Amtrak. The Republicans by and large oppose Amtrak funding, and that's worthy of discussion. People have religious accommodations that Amtrak has to deal with (diet, clothing, etc.), and that is likewise worthy.

If a passenger is uncomfortable with someone being openly gay and working on their train, I suggest they find alternate transportation. Though frankly, finding a transportation mode free of gay people is virtually impossible. Gay employees are allowed to be as "out" as the like at Amtrak, as is true with most modes of transport.

On the gossipy side, I've been hit on by a few employees - of both sexes - and I've been hit on by passengers - of both sexes. I've never directly hit on anyone else on the train, even people I knew were to be gay, even if I found them attractive. Amtrak isn't a dating service for me. (I will admit to having had casual relationships outside work with people who USED TO work for Amtrak, but no current employees).

I'm sure I've met many of you, and I know that I've waited personally on Alan on a couple of occasions in the diner. As my gay friends in the Marines used to say (and have tattooed on their bodies), we are everywhere.


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## amamba (Mar 29, 2012)

Guest employee, thanks for sharing your story.

Although I don't understand why you are always complaining about the use of SCA. Amtrak uses it in their marketing materials and on their website and in the route guides. I think we should agree to all just get behind both SCA and TA-S as being interchangeable or just a silly case of semantics.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 29, 2012)

guest employee said:


> I've been hit on by a few employees - of both sexes - and I've been hit on by passengers - of both sexes. I've never directly hit on anyone else on the train, even people I knew were to be gay, even if I found them attractive. Amtrak isn't a dating service for me.


Socially I'm a pretty progressive guy, especially for a Texan. I want folks to be able to do as they please so long as it doesn't involve unwilling or defenseless participants or cause harm to others. I'm not talking about some vague spiritual impact, but real actual harm. Other than that I believe that you should be able to do as you please. However, that being said, I must admit that as a straight person I do not enjoy being hit on by aggressive gay men. I think some folks in the gay community sometimes misconstrue tolerance for something else. Sometimes this can result in humorous or even comical exchanges, but other times it tests tolerance in a way that could be detrimental, especially since there's only so much someone can say in return without getting in trouble themselves.


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## NE933 (Mar 29, 2012)

To Guest Employee, that is a great account, and one of the most thorough of answers. I was also unprepared to hear of that there are MANY who work for Amtrak. I expected some, but not many.


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## Montanan (Mar 30, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> However, that being said, I must admit that as a straight person I do not enjoy being hit on by aggressive gay men. I think some folks in the gay community sometimes misconstrue tolerance for something else.


I could say pretty much the same thing about being hit on by aggressive straight women! And I'm sure many straight women would say the same thing about aggressive heterosexual men, who they might not happen to be interested in. Misconstruing social cues certainly isn't more common in the gay community than elsewhere, and I think many gay men are actually more cautious in that regard than average, because they're aware of the intolerance that still exists in much of American society.

And with that, back to the topic at hand ...


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 30, 2012)

Montanan said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > However, that being said, I must admit that as a straight person I do not enjoy being hit on by aggressive gay men. I think some folks in the gay community sometimes misconstrue tolerance for something else.
> ...


Agree.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 30, 2012)

Allow me for a moment a slightly different. I am not a homophobe- I have various friends fitting into all four categories of GLBT. I even got into an argument with Alan over the locking of this thread. But I am sick of people talking about how there particular group- irrespective of what it is- being treated with a perceived- and often inaccurate- lack of respect relative to the various other groups. I know it exists. I was born with the terrible combination of a 185 iq and several learning disabilities. Do you know what it feels like to be vastly better at comprehending the world around you then your grade school teacher who presumes you to be an idiot? Not out of spite, mind you, but out of pity and a want to help.

I was terribly discriminated against, because people assumed me to be dumb due to a lack of ability to learn information in a few select formats.

But he fact of the matter is, despite it's prevalence, discrimination is a symptom, not a Problem. The problem is we as People have a terrible lack of respect do each other as people, irrespective of any other category. I once got physically sick because I watched, ironically, a gay male complain about being discriminated against, only to turn around and be disrespectful to a variety of people, grossly, in outrageous ways.

Let's stop talking about treating group gobbilty gook with equal respect, the respect they deserve, bs yadda bs. Let us instead realize that before we treat gays with the same respect of other men (encompassing the feminine) we treat all men with the level of respect they deserve. For treating any minority with the respect we generally treat our fellow man is a disservice and a disrespect to life itself/


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## the_traveler (Mar 30, 2012)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Let's stop talking about treating group gobbilty gook with equal respect, the respect they deserve, bs yadda bs. Let us instead realize that before we treat gays with the same respect of other men (encompassing the feminine) we treat all men with the level of respect they deserve. For treating any minority with the respect we generally treat our fellow man is a disservice and a disrespect to life itself/


For once, GML, I agree with you!

If we did so, there would be no need for this thread, but that is not always the case.





And that's all I'm going to say on the subject as an AU member.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Mar 30, 2012)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Allow me for a moment a slightly different. I am not a homophobe- I have various friends fitting into all four categories of GLBT. I even got into an argument with Alan over the locking of this thread. But I am sick of people talking about how there particular group- irrespective of what it is- being treated with a perceived- and often inaccurate- lack of respect relative to the various other groups. I know it exists. I was born with the terrible combination of a 185 iq and several learning disabilities. Do you know what it feels like to be vastly better at comprehending the world around you then your grade school teacher who presumes you to be an idiot? Not out of spite, mind you, but out of pity and a want to help.
> 
> I was terribly discriminated against, because people assumed me to be dumb due to a lack of ability to learn information in a few select formats.


Same here too.. Not being able to write Thus not" putting out "	sadly makes one look rather dumb ..

I am blessed that computers are where they are . And that I keep Photo records on what I build and do .

Without I would be hosed.

Meh , Aspergers and its 2 sided gifts ..



Green Maned Lion said:


> But he fact of the matter is, despite it's prevalence, discrimination is a symptom, not a Problem. The problem is we as People have a terrible lack of respect do each other as people, irrespective of any other category. I once got physically sick because I watched, ironically, a gay male complain about being discriminated against, only to turn around and be disrespectful to a variety of people, grossly, in outrageous ways.
> 
> Let's stop talking about treating group gobbilty gook with equal respect, the respect they deserve, bs yadda bs. Let us instead realize that before we treat gays with the same respect of other men (encompassing the feminine) we treat all men with the level of respect they deserve. For treating any minority with the respect we generally treat our fellow man is a disservice and a disrespect to life itself/


I am Bi and I agree! .

Peter...


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 30, 2012)

Montanan said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > However, that being said, I must admit that as a straight person I do not enjoy being hit on by aggressive gay men. I think some folks in the gay community sometimes misconstrue tolerance for something else.
> ...


I do not disagree. That being said...



Montanan said:


> Misconstruing social cues certainly isn't more common in the gay community than elsewhere, and I think many gay men are actually more cautious in that regard than average, because they're aware of the intolerance that still exists in much of American society.


I do not doubt that gay people have probably existed since the beginning of time itself. However, unlike aggressive actions between openly straight individuals we do not have a well established history of social norms between gay suitors and straight targets to fall back on. What we do have is a long history of suspicion, intolerance, and abuse followed by a relatively short period of hypersensitivity. That can be a recipe for trouble if you're not careful. I've seen folks I consider to be perfectly reasonable and tolerant people lose their cool and eventually say something harsh, simply to get an aggressive suitor off their back and out of their personal space, only to be attacked for expressing a hatred they don't actually possess. In some ways it can feel like a trap that some folks have learned to navigate rather deftly in order to bully their way into the business of strangers. Over time I have little doubt that this issue will eventually resolve itself, but until then it can be a bit of a minefield, even for those with open minds and the best of intentions.


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## NE933 (Mar 30, 2012)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I once got physically sick because I watched, ironically, a gay male complain about being discriminated against, only to turn around and be disrespectful to a variety of people, grossly, in outrageous ways.


Yes, I have seen this 'reverse' or 'sideways' format of attacking or shutting out other in gay bars and formal meetings that were intended to address, then minimize, this behavior.

In other words, gay men are routinely harmed by gay men in cliques. In fact, when one picks up a flyer for certain events, the term: "EXCLUSIVELY" - is used and overused so often that I wonder if everyone everywhere were supposed to be so exclusive, especially in a group that has felt the pains of discrimination and abuse, we ought to obliterate holding GLBT events in exclusivity to all else.

Which is another reason why I adore Amtrak. Trains force all passengers to ride together, and it is very hard to maintain a 'we are the elite, the rest are just pions' social arrangement.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 30, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Which is another reason why I adore Amtrak. Trains force all passengers to ride together, and it is very hard to maintain a 'we are the elite, the rest are just pions' social arrangement.


Tell that to the sleeper snobs. :lol:


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## NE933 (Mar 30, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> I do not doubt that gay people have probably existed since the beginning of time itself. However, unlike aggressive actions between openly straight individuals we do not have a well established history of social norms between gay suitors and straight targets to fall back on. What we do have is a long history of suspicion, intolerance, and abuse followed by a relatively short period of hypersensitivity. That can be a recipe for trouble if you're not careful. I've seen folks I consider to be perfectly reasonable and tolerant people lose their cool and eventually say something harsh, simply to get an aggressive suitor off their back and out of their personal space, only to be attacked for expressing a hatred they don't actually possess. In some ways it can feel like a trap that some folks have learned to navigate rather deftly in order to bully their way into the business of strangers. Over time I have little doubt that this issue will eventually resolve itself, but until then it can be a bit of a minefield, even for those with open minds and the best of intentions.


Yes! This is a truth that needed a daring introduction. I would advocate the use of your paragraph, word for word, in any book/publication/lecture dealing with social issues. The reason I state this strongly is that some behaviors of the GLBT community (see my answer to Green Maned Lion, below) worsen the problems for us. We ought to be worthy monitors of our own treasury.


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## NE933 (Mar 30, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > Which is another reason why I adore Amtrak. Trains force all passengers to ride together, and it is very hard to maintain a 'we are the elite, the rest are just pions' social arrangement.
> ...


Certainly. As long as I get to tell it to the Coach snobs as well.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 30, 2012)

NE933 said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > NE933 said:
> ...


What, exactly, is a "coach snob?" :huh:


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## NE933 (Mar 30, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > Texas Sunset said:
> ...


A semantic device whose counterpoint 'evens' the scales between them (the Coach snob in question with the Sleeper snob). But please, i don't want to earn enemyship with people based on where on the Amtrak train they travel, otherwise we'll have Locomotive snob, Baggage snob, Dorm Car snob, a snob snob, ....

Ya know, it never ends...


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## NE933 (Mar 30, 2012)

I just noticed in mine and several other replies the use of citing quotes, has gone onto so many up-and-backs that we're up to five squares in some points, sort of looks like one of those perpetual mirrors where the receding image gets progressively smaller. How big of the square quotes has A. U. ever reached? If anyone knows, just a little trivia..


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## AlanB (Mar 30, 2012)

NE933 said:


> I just noticed in mine and several other replies the use of citing quotes, has gone onto so many up-and-backs that we're up to five squares in some points, sort of looks like one of those perpetual mirrors where the receding image gets progressively smaller. How big of the square quotes has A. U. ever reached? If anyone knows, just a little trivia..


The board stops you at 10 embedded quotes, and we've hit that many times in some topics.


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## NE933 (Jun 11, 2012)

So it's been since March 25th that I opened this loaded topic, and what a conversation it has been! In observance of the gay parades and celebrations that are usually held in June, Amtrak made it's presence known in a news blurb about sponsoring an area of the Washington DC grouup called Green Village. But what reallllllly, really, knocked me off the chair was the resurrection of www.AmtrakRideWithPride.com, featuring a photo of a male couple closely enjoying the passing scenery from a Superliner Sightseer Lounge (originally I thought it was a the lower level of Viewliner bedroom, but we ain't there yet, at the point of showing two men, though in separate beds, occupying a sleeping room).

I'm happy to see our railroading branching out to embrace this, and hope there is a time when all of us can be free of homophobic forces, and other pestilences like racism and sexual discrimination. Whether it's Amtrak, or another railroad, nothing can bridge the gaps like a train can, because it's like the world: we only have one biggie and have to find ways to live together, even if some distance is needed. I'm also very happy that this rail forum, 'Amtrak Unlimited', and Alan its chief administrator as well as the others, and all the members and non-members who were kind or at least resisted the urge to use attack words, I thank you for that.

Finally, I'd like to take that image in Amtrak's advertisement and clear a popular misconception: that is what two gay guys look like riding a train. Kinda boring, eh? Back in 2005 when I was with someone, and we shared a sleeper, anytime the 'flame got higher', the doors closed, curtains withdrawn, and Amtrak flew down the tracks at the normal 90 to 100. When we got up later we greeted everyone in the dining car, including my parents. Now i am solo, hopefully the bounty of happy news can show up not only in the area of more and better trains on tracks but also in the relationship one too. I also hope that the immense power of rail can kick a** on the continuing dismal economy by shining where it does, which is when it builds and sustains civilization, or something close to it. For those of us who watch, record, read about, Amtrak and it's brother and sister trains in other railroads, i wish for us to continue getting joy and harmony, and excitement, to remember and share with are families and friends, in large part by stopping the deterioration of infastructure and the way in which the honor of service, as opposed to servitude, can be upheld by gladly grunting out a hard job done successfully and compensated as such, using the miracle of these machine vehicles that move on track, carrying so much, relying on our eyes, ears, and strength of mind and body. Thank you.


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## Tracktwentynine (Jun 12, 2012)

Somehow, I missed this topic when it originally ran. I only just saw it this afternoon.

I've never had any trouble when traveling on Amtrak, and have never been treated with anything other than the utmost courtesy. Unfortunately, I've only had the opportunity to take my significant other on one overnight trip, but we've taken day trains several times.

The only real issue I've had was on the _Canadian_. I was traveling with a friend who also likes train travel. At breakfast on the morning of the third day, we were seated with a couple from Texas. Because this was the summer of 2008, the conversation turned to the upcoming American election, and in particular the race of one of the Democratic candidates for President. The gentleman from Texas was very vocal about his feelings about _that_ race and where _those_ people should fall on the social ladder.

My significant other is African-American, and I found the conversation very upsetting. I actually left without completing breakfast (in fact it was the only time I left the diner unsatisfied). I think I would have been abhorred by the conversation, even if I hadn't been dating an African-American, but it hurt what this man was saying about my significant other (even though he didn't know my significant other's race, or if I even had one).

One thing that I think heterosexual people take for granted is gender-specific pronouns.

If you haven't noticed yet, I've repeatedly used the phrase "significant other" to describe my, well, significant other. It's the only generic term I can use that does not indicate the gender of the person with who I am coupled. And when it comes to polite conversation, LGBT people often have to result either to these linguistic gymnastics or to lying to avoid "flaunting" their sexuality.

What a lot of straight people don't understand is that gay people "come out" repeatedly throughout their lives, not just once. It's true that LGBT people don't _have_ to come out to everyone. But sometimes they're faced with a difficult choice: reveal their sexuality or lie.

Very early in the thread, someone suggested that no one should just "blurt" out their sexuality. But in a world where heterosexuality is assumed and pronouns are gender specific, it sometimes can't be helped.

Let me give you an example. In this case it didn't happen on a train, but it easily could have. I was traveling to Phoenix on an airplane that stopped in Birmingham on the way. An older lady boarded and sat next to me for the four hour flight to Arizona. She was a talker, which is not a bad thing. Since I was traveling alone, she assumed I was single. She basically tried to set me up with her granddaughter.

At this point, I could have said, "I'm actually dating someone." But that would have likely inspired her to ask me about my girlfriend. And if she did that, I could either lie or tell her that I was gay. I don't mean to be rude to southerners (I'm from Georgia, myself), but this lady got on the plane in Alabama, which is not known for being very progressive. If I told her I was gay, she might react badly, and we were still over Arkansas. It could be a long flight if she were to be hostile.

So I elected to basically ignore the comment. "Yes, she sounds like a lovely girl. How long have you lived in Birmingham?"

When we have to share the same train for hundreds or thousands of miles, it can be especially stressful to "come out" to a seatmate or dinner companion. Many people regard any mention of sexuality as "flaunting". I'm not talking about making out, just the mere mention of a significant other using a same-gender gender-specific pronoun.

I am deeply in love with my boyfriend. We've been together for almost 5 years. I want to be able to be treated like a normal couple in public spaces. Heterosexual couples hold hands on the train. They might share a light kiss on the cheek. When alone they talk about each other or about their families. But my boyfriend and I generally don't do that, largely because we don't want to have to worry about what other people might have to say about it. And so, while we don't lie to people, if someone assumes we're just friends traveling together, we generally don't try to relieve them of that impression.

I want to be honest and open with people. I even want to assume the best of people, but it can be difficult to take the risk. And that's what people like me face when we make pleasant conversation on the train.

But as I've said, I have yet to receive a bad experience on Amtrak. Let's hope it stays that way for a long time to come.


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## brandon02852 (Jun 12, 2012)

EMDF9A said:


> I dont work for AMTRAK, but I ride frequently as a T&R guide... and I'm "Family" too. Now I am not going to out anyone, but I know several AMTRAK employees who are part of the family. Are you a member of PSS?


Why are you afraid of outright saying you are gay? You are hiding behind the word "family" which completely goes against the title and meaning of this thread.

I don't care if you are gay, and nobody that is decent in this world should think of you as inferior for being gay.


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## Ispolkom (Jun 12, 2012)

Tracktwentynine said:


> The only real issue I've had was on the _Canadian_. I was traveling with a friend who also likes train travel. At breakfast on the morning of the third day, we were seated with a couple from Texas. Because this was the summer of 2008, the conversation turned to the upcoming American election,


And this is why I refuse to discuss politics or religion with strangers, and never ask personal questions.

Of course, this is easy for me, because being from the midwest, I can happily discuss the weather for hours. Seriously. Comparing to past years, famous storms, weather patterns in the late Permian age, etc., etc.


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## Donctor (Jun 12, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> Tracktwentynine said:
> 
> 
> > The only real issue I've had was on the _Canadian_. I was traveling with a friend who also likes train travel. At breakfast on the morning of the third day, we were seated with a couple from Texas. Because this was the summer of 2008, the conversation turned to the upcoming American election,
> ...


Can't that lead to a discussion of global warming?


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## ScottC4746 (Jun 14, 2012)

Oldsmoboi said:


> Also family checking in here.
> 
> And I agree that it is an appropriate discussion for the forum. As my husband and I travel in a bedroom and the car attendant wants to prep both beds, but we have to correct them and tell them to only prep the lower bed. Thankfully, I've only ever had polite and courteous responses from on board staff. I don't "blurt out" that I'm gay, but I make no effort to hide my husband or his relationship to me. If it makes you uncomfortable that I steal some of the home-fries off of his plate at breakfast then go find another table, it's not my problem.


{Peering in from behind the closet door} So I am not the only passanger then?


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## roomette (Jun 14, 2012)

ScottC4746 said:


> {Peering in from behind the closet door} So I am not the only passanger then?


I'd mock that but I don't even know what that means.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jun 14, 2012)

ScottC4746 said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> > Also family checking in here.
> ...


?


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## TraneMan (Jun 14, 2012)

roomette said:


> ScottC4746 said:
> 
> 
> > {Peering in from behind the closet door} So I am not the only passanger then?
> ...


I think what he means is that he may of thought he was the only gay passenger, and wasn't out about it. (in the closet)


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## ScottC4746 (Jun 14, 2012)

TraneMan said:


> roomette said:
> 
> 
> > ScottC4746 said:
> ...


Bingo!


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## NE933 (Jun 14, 2012)

Oh, Scott, hell no!! I used to think that also, but have things changed!

Gays, bis, straights, are not just words, but people, and like people, are everywhere. Gay men drive and operate trains, clean and build them, print out and design their schedules, all sorts of things. Obviously, from reading the previous postings, it is controversial and in some cases, misunderstood. But I'd like to think that things are getting better, albeit slowly, so that if I one day get a boyfriend or companion and decide to hold his hand on Amtrak, or anywhere else, we won't be attacked with words, fists, sneering looks, etc.

So, welcome to the world outside the closet! Enjoy the many wonderful things you'll like, and learn from the not so nice things. If I may part some words of wisdom: please treat your fellow gay or lesbian people, in fact all people, with kindness, unless they intend to cause you harm. We all talk of homophobia as if it is strictly something that straight/hetero people do, but you'd be surprised how much exclusion and hurt comes from within.

It was hard for my parents to deal with, though they never threatened me or shut me out of the house; unfortunately this happens alot. But when I was still with my previous companion, now my ex, and all four of us took Amtrak to Florida, Pennsylvania, and did many other things, and they saw how happy we were, it made the pill alot easier to swallow. Seeing their son with another human, whether male or female, and if we brought happiness, support, and smile, that's all that mattered. I think this is a page in history in which many observers will find quiet acceptance when they see us function in life. And, like yourself, it shall tear down the walls of fear for others needing to come out of the closet. All the best, and enjoy Amtrak!


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## roomette (Jun 14, 2012)

ScottC4746 said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> > roomette said:
> ...


Ah, i get it now. But, if you're in the closet, do you really count?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 14, 2012)

Donctor said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > Tracktwentynine said:
> ...


Not if you're from the Midwest apparently.



roomette said:


> ScottC4746 said:
> 
> 
> > TraneMan said:
> ...


I'd mock that but I don't even know what that means.


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## roomette (Jun 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Donctor said:
> 
> 
> > Ispolkom said:
> ...


It means, if you're in the closet you're not really a member of the gay community. Mock away, have fun with it!


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## dlagrua (Jun 14, 2012)

We've certainly got far bigger problems to worry about in this country than to worry about a persons sexuality. Its a private issue and should be left as such.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 14, 2012)

dlagrua said:


> We've certainly got far bigger problems to worry about in this country than to worry about a persons sexuality. Its a private issue and should be left as such.


On the one hand I agree that it's a private issue. On the other hand, one thing that came out of this thread is that it's not as easy as it may sound to avoid drawing any attention to your preference in public, even just during polite small talk. That's something I had never really thought about before. For the most part I'm fine with gay people, but some gay folks seem prone to misinterpret acceptance with interest. That's the part I could do without. On the plus side, being hit on by another guy did give me a whole new appreciation for what women of the world have to go through.

:lol:


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## ScottC4746 (Jun 15, 2012)

roomette said:


> ScottC4746 said:
> 
> 
> > TraneMan said:
> ...


Actually been out to myself since 1989, to parents since 1995, and in this past February celebrated our 17th anniversary to a wonderful person who has taught me how to travel and taken me to Mexico, Canada, New Zealand, England, Paris, Japan, and Singapore and would never have gone to these places, except England, if it weren't for him.


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