# Northeast Zone Points Booking Issue



## transit54 (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm hoping everyone here can lend their expertise on this matter. My girlfriend is looking to travel between Rutland, VT and Lynchburg, VA. According to the AGR site, they are both in the Northeast zone. However, when I called AGR to book the ticket, I was told it would be 5,500 points (a one zone award). I questioned this, and the rep checked with her supervisor and confirmed this was the case. So I asked her to look at New York to Lynchburg as a means of comparison. She said that if the Regional to Lynchburg was booked, it was considered a Northeast zone award, but if the Crescent was booked, it would be a one zone award. Of course, connecting from the Ethan Allen (from Rutland), one can only connect on the Crescent.

Has anyone ever heard of this? My understanding was that the Northeast Zone was the Northeast Zone, regardless of what trains one took between the city pairs, assuming one is traveling in coach. I can't seem to find anything in the terms & conditions that say otherwise.

Does anyone have experience with this or has booked an LD train within the NE zone? What should I do? I'm trying to get this taken care of before the points go up, unfortunately my girlfriend has waited until the last minute to do this.

Thanks!


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## the_traveler (Mar 31, 2012)

I have done something similar. It doesn't matter what train is taken, as long as the 2 points are both in the Northeast Zone!

I have gone from KIN to BUF for the 3K rate. I took a Regional from KIN to NYP and *the LSL* from NYP to BUF!


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## transit54 (Mar 31, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> I have done something similar. It doesn't matter what train is taken, as long as the 2 points are both in the Northeast Zone!
> 
> I have gone from KIN to BUF for the 3K rate. I took a Regional from KIN to NYP and *the LSL* from NYP to BUF!


Thanks Dave, I figure you're probably the expert on these matters! After posting my original post, I did a search and came across a thread in which you mentioned your trip - I think it was from back in '09, IIRC?

I'm going to call tomorrow and try and talk to someone else. If I run into the same problem, what should I do? Ask to talk to a supervisor?


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## the_traveler (Mar 31, 2012)

Yes!


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## Ryan (Mar 31, 2012)

If they persist, ask for the rule in writing and where those rules can be found.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 31, 2012)

Ryan said:


> If they persist, ask for the rule in writing and where those rules can be found.


Good one! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## transit54 (Mar 31, 2012)

Just got off the phone with AGR. The rep was very nice, but insistent that anytime one boards a long distance train, it becomes a one zone award. I asked her where I could see the rule defining what is considered an eligible train and what isn't and while she spent about 10 minutes of searching, she was unable to find anything, other than her own (non-public) material. I asked to speak to a supervisor and she said that no one was in yet, and even tried to get in touch with the Philadelphia office (she said she was in California). But she told me I could call back in about an hour and should be able to speak to a supervisor then.

So I'm going to call back later today, but I'm not terribly hopeful. My girlfriend is ultimately traveling to Danville, VA, which is a true one zone award, and was just going to buy the ticket from Lynchburg to Danville. I've suggested that it may just be easier (and not that much different in price) just to buy some points and book the one zone to Danville and be done with this, but she will have none of it.


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## transit54 (Mar 31, 2012)

Ok, so I just got off the phone with AGR again. They will not book it and they cited the following in the T&C:

"_Redemption for Amtrak Travel Rewards is not available for travel on certain trains and/or certain times and dates._"

This is the first line of the terms & conditions when you go on the website, go to redeem and then click "Show More" under "Coach Class - Northeast Zone."

Although the line is ambiguous and does not specifically enumerate LD trains as excluded, they said that the line was proof that they can exclude them from the NE zone award and said that if I wanted to pursue this further, it would be considered a "policy issue" and I would have to take it up with Amtrak Customer Service, M-F.


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## NY Penn (Mar 31, 2012)

That pretty much shows that with ambiguous fine print, they gave themselves the ability to make their own rules.


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## Ryan (Mar 31, 2012)

True, but when the other agent said that it was stated pretty clearly in her materials, its clear to me that there is something written down.


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## the_traveler (Mar 31, 2012)

transit54 said:


> cited the following in the T&C:
> 
> "_Redemption for Amtrak Travel Rewards is not available for travel on certain trains and/or certain times and dates._"


OK, I understand the "certain times and dates" - otherwise called blackouts! But I do not understand how they can claim to use the "certain trains" statement in this case.

It does state *SPECIFICALLY* that is *DOES NOT INCLUDE* travel on AE, but I do not see anywhere on the rules where it *DOES NOT INCLUDE* travel on


The Lake Shore Limited
The Cardinal
The Crescent
or any other LD train

A good case in point is that Pittsfield, MA is indicated in the Northeast Zone. The *ONLY* train to serve that station is the LSL!



So if you can not use the LSL, why is Pittsfield indicated in the Northeast Zone?





*EDIT*: I just made a dummy res for PIT-BUF on 449 and it came up as 3K! So that shoots down that "rule"!


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## amamba (Mar 31, 2012)

You could try sending a PM to the AGR Insider over at Flyer Talk.


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## RRrich (Mar 31, 2012)

When are the AGR reps going to be honest and say "We don't have written rules, we just pull them out of our donkeys" They keep a special herd for just that purpose :angry2:


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## gatelouse (Mar 31, 2012)

Just did a test booking of the Crescent NYP-LYH and it shows 3000 points online. Since you have to call in for connecting travel, perhaps you can book this online (to prove that the Crescent is bookable as a NE award and call in to "extend" it from Rutland?


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## Ispolkom (Mar 31, 2012)

gatelouse said:


> Just did a test booking of the Crescent NYP-LYH and it shows 3000 points online. Since you have to call in for connecting travel, perhaps you can book this online (to prove that the Crescent is bookable as a NE award and call in to "extend" it from Rutland?


That's a good plan, but I'll bet the answer will be that the Web site is programmed wrong, and it might well be fixed.

Let's remember that when The Traveler booked his NE Zone trip KIN-NYP-BUF was in 2009, a golden age when you could take trains and buses the length of California for one special-zone award, and where you could travel Kansas City-LAX-PDX-Columbus as a one-zone award.

That all changed in 2010. Try to book those trips now at those rates. You still can (honest, I booked a loophole trip this month) but your chances are now very small.

You can argue logic. You can show examples from the Web site. It might even help. But the basic situation is this, and it's been that way for years: AGR long-distance redemptions are governed by arbitrary, ambiguous, poorly thought out rules, that aren't consistently applied by their agents. We might think we know what the rules are, but we really don't.

Well, actually, that's one way to look at things. Me, I prefer to think that agents role percentile dice against a chart to determine how much a trip costs. Given the different answers I get for the same route, that explanation makes as much sense as anything else, and it gives me the hope than next time I'll roll double zeros.

But maybe I just played too much Dungeons and Dragons back in the 70s.


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## transit54 (Mar 31, 2012)

Ok, get this. I just talked to Joe, an AGR supervisor. He said that the 3,000 point booking on the website is a "glitch" that they are working on correcting. He said if I booked NYP-LYH, they would honor it because it is able to be booked on the website. But if I booked NYP-LYH and then called to have the reservation changed out of Rutland, they would have the assess "the correct number of points." He was absolutely adamant that they would not honor it for an AGR NE redemption.

Amaba, thanks for the suggestion of contacting AGR Insider. I'm assuming that AGR Insider doesn't work on weekends and as of tomorrow, the points for a NE zone redemption go up. That's why I was hoping to take care of this today. At this point I've already spent close to two hours on the phone with AGR and they aren't willing to budge. I suggested to Joe that if you truly can't book a ticket from RUD-LYH for 3,000, they needed to explicitly say so on the website.


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## transit54 (Mar 31, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> That's a good plan, but I'll bet the answer will be that the Web site is programmed wrong, and it might well be fixed.


Bingo! We have a winner!

That's what they said to me, pretty much word for word.

It turns out that my girlfriend is now actually going to Lynchburg, not Danville. So it's a shame that this couldn't be done, but I'm giving up at this point. 2+ hours on the phone to AGR is enough.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 31, 2012)

transit54 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > That's a good plan, but I'll bet the answer will be that the Web site is programmed wrong, and it might well be fixed.
> ...


Well that restores my faith in AGR.


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## Anderson (Apr 1, 2012)

I would like to see the governing rule(s) in writing as well, namely what rule specifically states that a one-zone on an LD train is ineligible.

Mind you, I am prepared to see the rule(s) come out in a less-than-ideal way, but at least having those rules written down would be a good thing.

By the way, there is one key point that undermines the argument that LD trains are ineligible for redemptions: I believe that NE Zone bedrooms were not included within the points adjustments, but (and I could be wrong about this) I believe that there are still sleeper awards allowed within the NE Zone (and they would actually be potentially worthwhile on the "outsides" of the region under some circumstances...Richmond-Buffalo jumps to mind, as does Lynchburg-Buffalo). Given that the TS doesn't have a sleeper anymore, under the policy that LD trains do not allow Northeast Region redemptions..._something_ does not add up.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 1, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I would like to see the governing rule(s) in writing as well, namely what rule specifically states that a one-zone on an LD train is ineligible.
> 
> Mind you, I am prepared to see the rule(s) come out in a less-than-ideal way, but at least having those rules written down would be a good thing.
> 
> By the way, there is one key point that undermines the argument that LD trains are ineligible for redemptions: I believe that NE Zone bedrooms were not included within the points adjustments, but (and I could be wrong about this) I believe that there are still sleeper awards allowed within the NE Zone (and they would actually be potentially worthwhile on the "outsides" of the region under some circumstances...Richmond-Buffalo jumps to mind, as does Lynchburg-Buffalo). Given that the TS doesn't have a sleeper anymore, under the policy that LD trains do not allow Northeast Region redemptions..._something_ does not add up.


The redemption page in AGR shows the only sleeper award included in the Northeast Zone - Roomette - is priced the same as the One Zone Roomette - 15,000 points. There are no Bedroom awards shown for the Northeast Zone, although since the NE Roomette is the same as the One Zone Roomette, one could say that the NE Bedroom is the same as the One Zone Bedroom - 25,000 points.


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## Anderson (Apr 2, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to see the governing rule(s) in writing as well, namely what rule specifically states that a one-zone on an LD train is ineligible.
> ...


True. That was posted before they actually got the website back up this morning, and IIRC there _was_ such an award before. I could be wrong.


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