# Ukrainian trains still running



## Willbridge

Ukraine conflict: Thousands of people try to force their way onto a train to Poland - BBC News

Ukraine invasion: Warning shots fired to control crowds at Kyiv station - BBC News 

This is quite like the situation in Paris that was portrayed in the film _Casablanca,_ described in the memoir _Destiny's Journey _by Alfred Doeblin, and in _Brave Genius _by Sean B. Carroll. Except that it's worse and depends on the power for traction remaining on.

What authors and journalists rarely discuss is the viewpoint of the employees trying to run the railway. On the Eastern front of WWII, Deutsche Reichsbahn used to run equipment trains west after the Wehrmacht pulled out, to keep the Soviet Army from using them and to replace the cars destroyed in those History Channelesque clips from Allied fighter-bomber attacks. I've been caught up doing my work in chaotic crowds a few times, but no one was threatening to bomb or strafe me; health risks in the crowds were the danger. The ability of humans to carry on with their work can be amazing.

Two films do come to mind that showed railway employees caught up in a chaotic situation: _The Train_ and _Bhowani Junction. _Perhaps others can be suggested.


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## jis

I have traveled on a train from New Delhi to Howrah (Kolkata) in the middle of the 1971 India - Pakistan War that created Bangladesh. The ride was complete with blacked out train and all that as long as we were in areas that were within reach of the Pakistan Air Force. My ride was after India had established air supremacy in the east, so the blackout was discontinued east of Allahabad (today's Prayagraj). The situation was quite crowded (more than the usual) and chaotic at stations only in the East what with millions of refugees streaming in from then East Pakistan. As far as railway staff experience goes I suppose employees of the South Eastern, Eastern and Northeast Frontier Railways bore the brunt, both of huge military shipments and refugee movements.

There are several films from the time of Partition of India in 1947, which at same same time show the chaos and are gruesome at times, because that is the way it was. I guess Train to Pakistan (based on Khushwant Singh's novel of the same title) is one of the more famous ones. One of the other chaotic killings that took place on trains in India was after Indira Gandhis' assassination, when even prestige trains like the Rajdhani arrived in Delhi with gruesome scenes of butchered bodies of Sikhs in the trains, but I have not seen any of the several movies that have come out since then about that period.


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## dadonatrain

I’ll,Google this myself but I’ll,ask,here too since so many of you know so much about rail travel.

There is a border btwn Ukraine and Hungary, Slovakia, and Romania. I wonder if there are rail lines people might try to get out that way. Right now they could use all the help they can get!


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## dadonatrain

Willbridge said:


> Ukraine conflict: Thousands of people try to force their way onto a train to Poland - BBC News
> 
> Ukraine invasion: Warning shots fired to control crowds at Kyiv station - BBC News
> 
> This is quite like the situation in Paris that was portrayed in the film _Casablanca,_ described in the memoir _Destiny's Journey _by Alfred Doeblin, and in _Brave Genius _by Sean B. Carroll. Except that it's worse and depends on the power for traction remaining on.
> 
> What authors and journalists rarely discuss is the viewpoint of the employees trying to run the railway. On the Eastern front of WWII, Deutsche Reichsbahn used to run equipment trains west after the Wehrmacht pulled out, to keep the Soviet Army from using them and to replace the cars destroyed in those History Channelesque clips from Allied fighter-bomber attacks. I've been caught up doing my work in chaotic crowds a few times, but no one was threatening to bomb or strafe me; health risks in the crowds were the danger. The ability of humans to carry on with their work can be amazing.
> 
> Two films do come to mind that showed railway employees caught up in a chaotic situation: _The Train_ and _Bhowani Junction. _Perhaps others can be suggested.



I wonder if another risk is that as long as trains do keep running OUT of Ukraine to Poland or anywhere they eventually won’t get back to take more people out!


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## jis

Apparently most of the refugee traffic is now flowing towards Poland by train.


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## MARC Rider

Isn't there a gauge change at the border? I know that some through trains actually get their tucks/bogies replaced at the border, but would it be faster to just have passengers transfer trains?


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## jis

MARC Rider said:


> Isn't there a gauge change at the border? I know that some through trains actually get their tucks/bogies replaced at the border, but would it be faster to just have passengers transfer trains?


There are only a few through trains. There are many more choices with connection at the border. That is usually the case at most European borders.


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## Willbridge

jis said:


> Apparently most of the refugee traffic is now flowing towards Poland by train.


I think of the neighboring countries that is the strongest rail connection. Regarding Hungary, I just looked up Lviv>Budapest and there is only one through schedule (with a transfer at the border, but no other changes) and it runs every other day. There are a couple of other multi-transfer connections.

In the evacuation of Paris in WWII, the main problem was getting train crews together. As one of the BBC videos shows, empty trains are returning, but they may get tied up in the interior. I can surmise that the Hours of Service rules are suspended.

In 1971 I was caught in an SNCF strike. The French crews ran trains after the strike deadline if they needed a ride home. My train left Strasbourg on time because it was run for the French Army, but for other passengers the line-up of departures was a mystery. From reading Doeblin's book, I suspect that was what happened in WWII.


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## PeeweeTM

German railfan site Drehscheibe-online.de has in the 'Ausland' part a kind of trip report ('[PL] und in gewisser Weise [UA]: Przemysl in der Nacht vom 25. auf den 26. Feb.') of someone picking up Ukrain family in Poland.
You may have to re-click the link on the site and let Google have a try on translating German into English.


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## Willbridge

PeeweeTM said:


> German railfan site Drehscheibe-online.de has in the 'Ausland' part a kind of trip report ('[PL] und in gewisser Weise [UA]: Przemysl in der Nacht vom 25. auf den 26. Feb.') of someone picking up Ukrain family in Poland.
> You may have to re-click the link on the site and let Google have a try on translating German into English.


Schon gut! I'll translate it when I'm awake, as Google can't pick up some of the image text. (Ich spreche Eisenbahn.) The pix are great.

Google Translate is much better with German now than a decade ago. Back then I ran a news article about a novel bus purchase by the Berlin system and it helpfully translated the abbreviation BVG as Federal Supreme Court (Bundesverwaltingsgericht). What Google thought they would do with hundreds of yellow buses ich kenne nicht.

My name is down in the middle of the agenda below. I spent two years watching the other side practice. Though I had studied Russian history and Soviet foreign policy, I always hoped that they would find a better path.


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## cirdan

MARC Rider said:


> Isn't there a gauge change at the border? I know that some through trains actually get their tucks/bogies replaced at the border, but would it be faster to just have passengers transfer trains?



That's why it's mostly done on sleeper trains.

The gauge changing facilities exist primarily for freight though.


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## BalmyZephyr

Just heard from someone who got out to Poland via bus. She only has her cat, nothing else. It took 11 hours (instead of 1) because the roads were clogged with refugees.


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## BalmyZephyr

Update, she could have taken the train out of Lviv but she found it too scary: people panicking and rushing the train, lots of crowd movements, and people left behind when a train leaves were screaming. She could not take it. A friend working for a company that chartered a bus for its employees had two seats open for her, her sister, and the cat.


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## BalmyZephyr

The refugee we are hearing from says that Poland is making the trains free for the refugees.


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## PeeweeTM

Trains in Germany (at least DB) and the Netherlands (NS) are free for Ukrainian refugees showing a passport, according to news sites.


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## Metra Electric Rider

Part of the reason that Poland is taking so many refugee's is because large parts of the Ukraine were once Polish territory* and because of their long held distrust (and dare I say hatred) of the Russians - the eternal enemy, more so than the Germans. 

*For example L'viv was called L'vov and my father went to school there in the 1930's when it was a Polish city.


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## Willbridge

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Part of the reason that Poland is taking so many refugee's is because large parts of the Ukraine were once Polish territory* and because of their long held distrust (and dare I say hatred) of the Russians - the eternal enemy, more so than the Germans.
> 
> *For example L'viv was called L'vov and my father went to school there in the 1930's when it was a Polish city.


Yes. In the Tomsk Municipal Museum there's a Singer sewing machine that was built when it was L'vov in the Russian (tsarist) Empire.

Stalin moved Poland west by giving it the eastern provinces of Germany and taking the eastern provinces of Poland for the Soviet Union. The touchiness of it was illustrated when Germany and Poland signed a treaty to end WWII in 1970 and the Deutsche Bundesbahn was directed to remove system maps from pre-war passenger cars that showed the pre-war network. These and earlier boundary changes have left all sorts of relationships. The Bundesbahn's print map of European railways in 1970 solved a lot of problems by not showing national borders.

In 1971 I was on a DB train that made a special stop to deliver ethnic German refugees to a camp near the inter-German border. They were released by Poland as part of the treaty. I had a good view of it from the dining car where I was having lunch. Conversation stopped. I don't know what everyone was thinking, but I was doing the arithmetic that showed that it had been a generation since the war in Europe had ended, but the human misery was still going on.

In 2005 I went from Germany into Poland and returned through the border controls. By my 2014 visit, the border controls were gone, and the magnetism of Berlin was attracting customers from the former German parts of Poland. Here are Polish vans waiting for passengers at Berlin-Tegel Airport. I can understand why Ukrainians might want to join the EU.




In 2005, Deutsche Reichsbahn platform canopies in the Szczecin, Poland union station.


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## cassie225

Are there camps set up when they reach Poland, hotels, relatives,etc So sad


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## Just-Thinking-51

cassie225 said:


> Are there camps set up when they reach Poland, hotels, relatives,etc So sad


At this point one hope so. But the timing of this event there probably still trying to get this organized.


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## jola

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Part of the reason that Poland is taking so many refugee's is because large parts of the Ukraine were once Polish territory* and because of their long held distrust (and dare I say hatred) of the Russians - the eternal enemy, more so than the Germans.
> 
> *For example L'viv was called L'vov and my father went to school there in the 1930's when it was a Polish city.


Poland was part of the Russia for a very long time till WWI. After that Lvov was Polish town till WWII and become Russian after WWII and Ukrainian after 1991. I don't know where they change tracks but it might be that Lvov has both set of tracks and because of the geography and history it primary choice for people to migrate vs other routes.


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## Willbridge

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> At this point one hope so. But the timing of this event there probably still trying to get this organized.


Following this through the BBC and NPR, efforts are underway, based partly on the experience with other refugee waves. The problem is more the potential numbers, rather than the number that have made it in so far.


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## west point

Much of the refugee problem IMO comes from the lack of belief that Russia was actually going to invade. Many of the European and other countries did not believe US intelligence that Russia was going to invade. Some analysts believe that invasion reports were not believed because US reports about WMD stockpiles that Hussen had proved false. 

So, instead of having 2 weeks to prepare for refugees most countries and NGOs had no time to prepare.


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## Just-Thinking-51

The Russian seem just as unprepared for a shooting war as much as the European countries were unprepared for refugees.

These train are electric power and the simple fact that still running, indicates a tactical mistake or the Russian were not planning for resistance.


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## Willbridge

west point said:


> Much of the refugee problem IMO comes from the lack of belief that Russia was actually going to invade. Many of the European and other countries did not believe US intelligence that Russia was going to invade. Some analysts believe that invasion reports were not believed because US reports about WMD stockpiles that Hussein had proved false.
> 
> So, instead of having 2 weeks to prepare for refugees most countries and NGOs had no time to prepare.


Yes. In particular, I detected a certain snarkiness in the Berlin daily that I was skimming. Even the BBC World Service had some commentators who were doing the radio equivalent. In fact, anyone who looked closely at the Iraq reports should have at least doubted them (as the French did), while anyone in the Ukraine case who looked at satellite pictures and reports from travelers should at least have been concerned.

Watching what direction trainloads of tanks are going is something that we did back in the Cold War and it's not rocket science.


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## Willbridge

cassie225 said:


> Are there camps set up when they reach Poland, hotels, relatives,etc So sad


There's a very thorough article on rail aids to refugees from the _International Railway Journal._ It is running behind events, but it has more info than you'll get from mass media:









Europe rallies in effort to support Ukraine


European operators are continuing to offer free train travel for refugees fleeing Ukraine in light of the ongoing Russian invasion.




www.railjournal.com





Some airlines are also offering assistance.


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## Rambling Robert

The international Rescue Committee (IRC) is already aiding the displaced Ukrainians. The IRC has a paid staff of 11,000 and many volunteers. I’ve been interested in volunteering at Cox’s Bazar in Bangladesh with 700,000 refugees. It’s mind boggling how effective the IRC is - the CEO makes only $400K.


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## cirdan

cassie225 said:


> Are there camps set up when they reach Poland, hotels, relatives,etc So sad



Don't know about Poland but I have relatives in Hungary and they say more than 60,000 have come in, maybe a lot more, as nobody is keeping track and the border guards have instructions to let them pass through without more than minimal formalities. Those who wish to be registered can be registered but most are chosing not to do so.

There are official reception centers being set up, but so far relatively few people have turned up there. It is being assumed that the majority of those who are coming to Hungary did so because of family ties and so are probably staying with friends or relatives, or maybe just passing through and heading for other countries. Nobody really knows at the moment.

I assume that many believe the conflict will just be of short duration and so are just staying under the radar and will go back as soon as things are safe.


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## cirdan

Willbridge said:


> Watching what direction trainloads of tanks are going is something that we did back in the Cold War and it's not rocket science.



True.

But there have been dozens of false alerts over the last few years, and I think people get tired and stop taking these reports seriously.

Which was maybe an intentional tactic.


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## daybeers

I think analyzing how the railway aided in the fleeing of refugees will be fascinating. Certainly far more capacity than the miles of cars. I wonder how it may be different if the electricity was off.


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## Willbridge

daybeers said:


> I think analyzing how the railway aided in the fleeing of refugees will be fascinating. Certainly far more capacity than the miles of cars. I wonder how it may be different if the electricity was off.


They do have Diesels but not enough and they aren't geared for speed.


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## PeeweeTM

Willbridge said:


> They do have Diesels but not enough and they aren't geared for speed.



Well, if electricity was off, interlocking etc. would be off, too. So speed would be 'On Sight' (25 mph-or-slower-range?).
With a lot of commercial freight trains halted, even shunting diesels could propell passenger trains.
I guess.


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## Exvalley

Here is an excellent video of a vlogger riding the train to get out of Ukraine after the war began.


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## Just-Thinking-51

PeeweeTM said:


> Well, if electricity was off, interlocking etc. would be off, too. So speed would be 'On Sight' (25 mph-or-slower-range?).
> With a lot of commercial freight trains halted, even shunting diesels could propell passenger trains.
> I guess.



If the tracks are intact then railroad is a option for people to leave the area. The Russian bomb the airports to prevent more weapons from arriving. If they see freight train or even passengers cars filled with weapon and ammunition then the tracks will be taken out of service.(bombed).

This is a bad situation and still have some means of transportation out of the country is beneficial for both side. The track will be bombed the moment there used to bring in supplies. But people fleeing the country is just another person not involved or endanger by the conflict. Quite beneficial to both sides.


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## Willbridge

Exvalley said:


> Here is an excellent video of a vlogger riding the train to get out of Ukraine after the war began.



I love the fact that the car attendant was on the job!


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## Just-Thinking-51

I was watching a video of a CNN crew driving out of the country. The biggest problem was check point inside of the Ukraine by the Ukraine government trying to stop people of military age from leaving.

The next issue is most people can spend 200 dollars on a unexpected repairs of there car. It what happen as these folk run out of funds. That the tricky part. As some point your out of cash/credit then your going to need some help.

This video was early in the war, but even then you saw all those people living in the subway tunnels.

Correction it was a CNN crew not CBS.


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## BalmyZephyr

Exvalley said:


> Here is an excellent video of a vlogger riding the train to get out of Ukraine after the war began.




Yes excellent, thank you for posting. I wonder what happened next. I'll check that guy's YouTube channel.


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## Seaboard92

I was just on one of the Polish EuroCity/InterCity trains that ended up being converted to a Refugee Train. The early AM departure from warsaw was 95 percent if not higher refugees. I speak Russian so I volunteered to the crew to help them keep control of the train and ended up working with the conductor for the whole trip. And even with that the halls were not really clear for passage. But at least in the event of an accident egress would have been slightly better. 

I also heard and saw pictures/films of the attrocities going on in Ukraine and it is heartbreaking. 

The Polish people are building bakc a railway to Ukraine right now that has been out of servie for many years. Volunteers are out clearing the line while PKP gets the track up to snuff to bring trains back to it. 

And of course Bald and Bankrupt would be in Ukraine for this.


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## west point

Seaboard thank you for your service. If there is anything one of us can do here to backstop you please ask.. Someone might be able to do it!


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## Seaboard92

west point said:


> Seaboard thank you for your service. If there is anything one of us can do here to backstop you please ask.. Someone might be able to do it!



Backstop? Your welcome for the service I was just doing my small part. It was so hard not to help when the train crew was clearly overran. And the electric locker on one of the old cars kept opening into where people were sitting. I jerryrigged a fix using old baggage tags from my suitcases to close it till I could get my hands on some actual tape.


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## jiml

Seaboard92 said:


> Backstop? Your welcome for the service I was just doing my small part. It was so hard not to help when the train crew was clearly overran. And the electric locker on one of the old cars kept opening into where people were sitting. I jerryrigged a fix using old baggage tags from my suitcases to close it till I could get my hands on some actual tape.


Your special "skillset" doesn't hurt either.


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## west point

I was just thinking if you needed something done here in the US one of us might be able to help. I am only 5 hours (normally) from CLT.


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## Willbridge

Seaboard92 said:


> Backstop? Your welcome for the service I was just doing my small part. It was so hard not to help when the train crew was clearly overran. And the electric locker on one of the old cars kept opening into where people were sitting. I jerryrigged a fix using old baggage tags from my suitcases to close it till I could get my hands on some actual tape.


Конечно! A frequent Amtrak passenger would know how to do jury-rigged repairs on defective latches, shades, etc.


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## Just-Thinking-51

The video report from CNN that I referred to above.


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## Willbridge

An excellent report on how Ukraine Railways is managing the continuing operation.









On board the mobile command that's keeping Ukraine's trains running


The railroad is a top priority as Ukraine fends off Russian attacks. Ukrzaliznytsia's leaders are managing things from a mobile command center.




www.businessinsider.com


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## cirdan

I travelled by night train from Budapest to Zurich last night.

I had to change my plans because the train was fully booked on several days, which may occur in the summer, or around Xmas, but is quite unusual for this time of year. I never imagined that there was any connection to the Ukrainian situation though.

When the train did turn up it was quite a bit longer than usual, with the extra cars being Swiss day coaches, so not exactly the best way to travel over night. The train was not completely full but I would say pretty close. I was surprised to see the Ukrainians were not travelling with much baggage so I presume they had to leave their homes in a hurry. There were lots of families with young kids.

On arriving in Zürich there were still some but less than there had been in Budapest so I assume many must have got off at intermediate stations. There was no visible welcome committee or anybody to show the way or tell them what to do, so I guess they must have made their own way and were maybe being picked up by family or friends.


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## Willbridge

cirdan said:


> I travelled by night train from Budapest to Zurich last night.
> 
> I had to change my plans because the train was fully booked on several days, which may occur in the summer, or around Xmas, but is quite unusual for this time of year. I never imagined that there was any connection to the Ukrainian situation though.
> 
> When the train did turn up it was quite a bit longer than usual, with the extra cars being Swiss day coaches, so not exactly the best way to travel over night. The train was not completely full but I would say pretty close. I was surprised to see the Ukrainians were not travelling with much baggage so I presume they had to leave their homes in a hurry. There were lots of families with young kids.
> 
> On arriving in Zürich there were still some but less than there had been in Budapest so I assume many must have got off at intermediate stations. There was no visible welcome committee or anybody to show the way or tell them what to do, so I guess they must have made their own way and were maybe being picked up by family or friends.


Were the Swiss cars the Grossraumwagen or Abteilung types? In my days of 2nd class travel the Swiss, German and Scandinavian Abteilung cars had six seats and then had jump seats in the corridor. The French and Italian and preWWII German cars had eight seats, and if I was tired enough I slept in them.

News reports match your surmise that they were going to family and friends. The first wave is likely to do that because they have a plan right away.


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## Seaboard92

Willbridge said:


> Were the Swiss cars the Grossraumwagen or Abteilung types? In my days of 2nd class travel the Swiss, German and Scandinavian Abteilung cars had six seats and then had jump seats in the corridor. The French and Italian and preWWII German cars had eight seats, and if I was tired enough I slept in them.
> 
> News reports match your surmise that they were going to family and friends. The first wave is likely to do that because they have a plan right away.



Depending on the Abteilung cars too you can get the seats to recline all the way flat to make a really large bed. I did that on the NightJet once.


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## cirdan

Willbridge said:


> Were the Swiss cars the Grossraumwagen or Abteilung types? In my days of 2nd class travel the Swiss, German and Scandinavian Abteilung cars had six seats and then had jump seats in the corridor. The French and Italian and preWWII German cars had eight seats, and if I was tired enough I slept in them.
> 
> News reports match your surmise that they were going to family and friends. The first wave is likely to do that because they have a plan right away.


These were grossraumwagen, but the first class variety with 2+ 1 seating . I havent seen any Swiss Abteilwagen in years . The Austrians still have plenty though .


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## UserNameRequired

Willbridge said:


> Were the Swiss cars the Grossraumwagen or Abteilung types? In my days of 2nd class travel the Swiss, German and Scandinavian Abteilung cars had six seats and then had jump seats in the corridor. The French and Italian and preWWII German cars had eight seats, and if I was tired enough I slept in them.
> 
> News reports match your surmise that they were going to family and friends. The first wave is likely to do that because they have a plan right away.


I am curious and having trouble visualizing this seating arrangement? Six seats across the car with a jumpseat in the corridor aisle? Pictures or seat layout diagram (I did a few searches but not sure what I am looking for, I saw one car with 5 across and the side with 3 seats were facing each other making a group of 6 seats...)?


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## Seaboard92

UserNameRequired said:


> I am curious and having trouble visualizing this seating arrangement? Six seats across the car with a jumpseat in the corridor aisle? Pictures or seat layout diagram (I did a few searches but not sure what I am looking for, I saw one car with 5 across and the side with 3 seats were facing each other making a group of 6 seats...)?



The Six seats are in a small room think the size of a Viewliner Bedroom but with just the seats, two rows of three facing each other in the room. Then a jump seat in the aisle.


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## UserNameRequired

Seaboard92 said:


> The Six seats are in a small room think the size of a Viewliner Bedroom but with just the seats, two rows of three facing each other in the room. Then a jump seat in the aisle.


I get it now! Thanks.


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## Willbridge

Seaboard92 said:


> The Six seats are in a small room think the size of a Viewliner Bedroom but with just the seats, two rows of three facing each other in the room. Then a jump seat in the aisle.



Here's a Polish (PKP) 2nd class car in 1970, complete with Polish passenger. Note that in this example there's no divider, so it might be 3 across, but perhaps 4.




First Class in 1970 on the DB with 6-person Abteilung provided with dividers and more elbow room. The seats slid forward and on one occasion when I was the only passenger in the compartment I was able to make a berth with the opposing seat also slid forward.


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## Willbridge

"We will keep repairing the tracks once the firing stops. We will keep the trains running as long as we can. There is no other option for us."

Ukraine's wartime rail chief has to be faster than the Russians tracking him - BBC News 

Also links to a report on the rail trip by Central European leaders from Poland to Kyiv.


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## Willbridge

Willbridge said:


> "We will keep repairing the tracks once the firing stops. We will keep the trains running as long as we can. There is no other option for us."
> 
> Ukraine's wartime rail chief has to be faster than the Russians tracking him - BBC News
> 
> Also links to a report on the rail trip by Central European leaders from Poland to Kyiv.


Here's more on the leaders' train trip, including a plug for the (relative) safety of rail travel.

Ukraine's rail chief reveals how EU leaders got in and out of Kyiv: 'Everyone should understand that it's war' (msn.com)


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## Seaboard92

I tend to agree with the head of the railways there that they were very naive to tweet out or announce what they were doing before they were safely out of harms way. This is war and they would be a very good target.


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## Willbridge

Updates on Ukrainian rail and cross-EU/Russia rail passenger service:

Last EU train out of Russia arrives in Helsinki (msn.com) 
(Note that through the Cold War trains continued to operate, albeit with border hassles. The summer-only _Hoek-Warsaw Express _-- powered by a Deutsche Reichsbahn Pacific -- was the first of those trains that I saw, and I was immediately sold on the idea of being stationed in the U.S. Army's Berlin Brigade.)

Ukraine war: A dangerous escape on the 'Rescue Express' - BBC News


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## neroden

The railways are essential for military logistics, for both Russia and Ukraine. Ukrainians (and their supporters in Belarus) are making sure that Ukrainian trains can run and Russian trains can't. The Russians, being in hostile territory, cannot do the same.

Ukraine is seriously talking about doing a complete standard gauge conversion after the war. Reasons are obvious...


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## mcropod

Exvalley said:


> Here is an excellent video of a vlogger riding the train to get out of Ukraine after the war began.





I've been following bald and bankrupt's vlogs ever since I discovered them a couple of years ago and he covers a number of travel issues that interest me. But the silly bugger had earlier crossed the border *into* Ukraine from Poland just to have a lookaround, and so got caught up in the mad rush to leave a few days later.


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## cirdan

neroden said:


> Ukraine is seriously talking about doing a complete standard gauge conversion after the war. Reasons are obvious...



I hope they take a serious look at Spain before doing that.

Huge cost overruns and network fragmentation.


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## Metra Electric Rider

cirdan said:


> I hope they take a serious look at Spain before doing that.
> 
> Huge cost overruns and network fragmentation.


I think keeping russians out trumps that concern, plus Neroden said _complete _gauge changeover, which presumably means the entire network. Smart move on their part and ties them even more into Central Europe.


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## cirdan

Seaboard92 said:


> I tend to agree with the head of the railways there that they were very naive to tweet out or announce what they were doing before they were safely out of harms way. This is war and they would be a very good target.



absolutely, and such an attack would unavoidably cause many civilian casualties.


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## cirdan

Metra Electric Rider said:


> I think keeping russians out trumps that concern, plus Neroden said _complete _gauge changeover, which presumably means the entire network. Smart move on their part and ties them even more into Central Europe.



Well, according to urban legend (and actually proven to be untrue, but whatever), the reason Spain went for a broader gauge was to make it more difficult for the French to invade. Well, the French didn't invade but the track gauge didn't come into that decision.

Having a different gauge didn't stop the Germans invading Russia in WW2 and didn't stop the counter-invasion of Russia into Central Europe.

So at the end of the day its a feel-good symbolic thing that doesn't stop invasions. The question is should a war-torn poor country be channeling big money into feel-good projects?

Finland also shares broad gauge with Russia for historic reasons, but nobody doubts those reasons are in the past, and as far as I know, nobody is asking to change the gauge for emotional or military reasons.


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## John Bredin

cirdan said:


> So at the end of the day its a feel-good symbolic thing that doesn't stop invasions. The question is should a war-torn poor country be channeling big money into feel-good projects?
> 
> Finland also shares broad gauge with Russia for historic reasons, but nobody doubts those reasons are in the past, and as far as I know, nobody is asking to change the gauge for emotional or military reasons.


Does having a broad gauge network narrow Ukraine's choices on where to buy new equipment? The Wikipedia article on the Finnish railways implies as much but isn't crystal-clear on the point. Because if sharing a gauge with the Russians had inclined the Ukrainians to buy Russian engines and rolling stock in the past (I don't know), I can definitely see them wanting to take their business elsewhere in the future.


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## Exvalley

cirdan said:


> The question is should a war-torn poor country be channeling big money into feel-good projects?


If Ukraine holds on (keyword: if) and prevails, I suspect that there will be LOTS of redevelopment money in the form of foreign aid coming their way.

What would get interesting is if the breakaway republics and Crimea keep the Soviet gauge while the rest of Ukraine switches.


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## cirdan

John Bredin said:


> Does having a broad gauge network narrow Ukraine's choices on where to buy new equipment? The Wikipedia article on the Finnish railways implies as much but isn't crystal-clear on the point. Because if sharing a gauge with the Russians had inclined the Ukrainians to buy Russian engines and rolling stock in the past (I don't know), I can definitely see them wanting to take their business elsewhere in the future.



Finland shares a gauge with Russia but doesn’t buy much if any Russian equipment .

on the contrary . Even Russia buys western equipment Sometimes . For example sleeper cars from siemens , commuter trains from stadler and talgo trains


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## Willbridge

cirdan said:


> Finland shares a gauge with Russia but doesn’t buy much if any Russian equipment .
> 
> on the contrary . Even Russia buys western equipment Sometimes . For example sleeper cars from siemens , commuter trains from stadler and talgo trains


I'm not sure how they're doing lately, but GE has a factory for the 1520 mm world in Kazakhistan.


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## Willbridge

cirdan said:


> Well, according to urban legend (and actually proven to be untrue, but whatever), the reason Spain went for a broader gauge was to make it more difficult for the French to invade. Well, the French didn't invade but the track gauge didn't come into that decision.
> 
> Having a different gauge didn't stop the Germans invading Russia in WW2 and didn't stop the counter-invasion of Russia into Central Europe.
> 
> So at the end of the day its a feel-good symbolic thing that doesn't stop invasions. The question is should a war-torn poor country be channeling big money into feel-good projects?
> 
> Finland also shares broad gauge with Russia for historic reasons, but nobody doubts those reasons are in the past, and as far as I know, nobody is asking to change the gauge for emotional or military reasons.


In the German advance to the east, they experimented with adjustable wheel sets. As the war turned in the other direction the Reichsbahn did attempt to pull rolling stock out of the front areas, sometimes after the Wehrmacht had retreated. In the late months of WWII they had work gangs of POW's tipping cars off of yard tracks to open lines.

That is one reason that Lend-Lease trucks were so important for the Soviet Army. The Soviet railway troops also re-gauged the main lines to Berlin. Broad-gauge arrived there on 5 May 1945, some of it constructed under fire. Hand-throw switches were standard.

The ultimate feel-good project was Stalin's trip to Potsdam. A track was re-gauged from Berlin to Potsdam. His special train was powered by an American Diesel engine. With the right incentives that trackwork can be done fast.

The Ukrainians are carrying on a necessary tradition right now -- running a European railway in a war zone -- and they'll have to worry about the gauge issue later.

In turn, I believe that the Russians have dropped their publicized plans to build a broad gauge freight line to Vienna.


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## jis

Willbridge said:


> I'm not sure how they're doing lately, but GE has a factory for the 1520 mm world in Kazakhistan.


Both GE and EMD have jointly operated technology transfer factories for 1667mm in India, They build some really cool dual cab enormously powerful diesels there, Then again so do Alstom and Siemens. If there is a large enough market the vendors will figure out a way to serve it.


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## Seaboard92

I promise this relates to the topic when we address the greater history of the region we can see the conflict more clearly. That and I put over an hour into making a decent response. 

Well one also has to realize how intrinsically linked Ukraine and Russia both are historically and economically. What is now Russia started as the Kievan Rus and all three nations claim it as a common denominator being Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine. Now this period dates back all the way to 879 and ended in 1240 when the Duchy of Moskva started gaining more strength and power which is the birth to what became Russia. Then if you continue looking into it you will see the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth then took over after that period and the Russian forces under the Cossacks started taking the territory back in the 1600s, before Catherine the Great took over parts officially during her reign which included a split of the Polish held territories with the Habsburgs. The Russian part was Russified just like the rest of the country in the far east. You can see my trip report for photos of the Native American looking settlements near Irkutsk for more proof of that. however Ukrainian Nationalism was more prevalent in the Habsburg controlled territory. 

Now World War I is where the history starts to get more murky because you had people of the Ukrainian State fighting on both sides of the war. Poland then claimed parts of western Ukraine which then caused a civil war in that area. Which eventually was integrated into Soviet Ukraine. After World War II they picked up more former Habsburg territories in Romania, Poland, and Hungary. Then in the 50s Khrushchev gave Crimea from the Russian Soviet Federative Republic RSFR to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic USSR. Crimea itself had been part of Russia since 1774 officially but it also goes back to the Kievan Rus Period to a degree as well. 

Now that I've covered the more historical part of the Ukraine/Russia territory now I'll pivot back towards the rail side but I figured the history would help aid clarity. 

Now when you look at the rail lines in Ukraine you need to think about this geographical history of territories. When most of this track was built it was during the Russian Empire/Soviet Union period and you'll see the railroads were built in the same way as other colonial railroads. Areas closer to the Russian border look more like a hub network that was designed for extraction of raw materials in this case grain branches. Then you have a handful of east-west lines that connect eastern Uraine and Western Ukraine. Then looking at the western network it looks like the extremities of the old lines of the Habsburg empire. 

Knowing that most of this makes sense when looking at the lines. Colonial lines should always be built to the same standard as the country they feed so it's no surprise there is so much Broad Gauge, and why they also broad gauged the western lines. It also makes sense that the equipment is to the same standards especially during the Soviet Period because it was all under SZD. It makes sense not having a small sub-fleet of niche locomotives when the rest of the system doesn't need it which is why you see so much Russian equipment running there. 

Then we have to look at their economic history after 1991 to see why we still see Soviet models, and modernized versions still in operation there. Ukraine had the same fate that led to the rise of Lukashenko, and Putin with economic instability and scarcity. When resources are limited you keep older stuff running, and don't have the money to buy the fancy stuff from the west. So it all makes sense in the end. 

Ukraine does have some western power now, I want to say they have some variant of a GE or EMD model there now too. 

Will they go standard gauge I strongly doubt this because economically they are still fairly tight in with Russia. And look at their border crossings. Most of them are eastward and northward into what was the Russian empire and Soviet Union. 

What I think is more likely is we will see some form of a democratic revolution in the Russian Federation and the Republic of Belarus. And this grows more likely with each day the conflict draws on. We've seen record numbers of protests in both countries, and we've also seen the railroad used as a weapon of war, but also of the resistance. We've seen reports of Belarusian Railroaders and Russian Railroaders sabotaging the railroad to prevent the movement of troops and materials. The longer this goes and the more Russia bleeds the leadership will end up changing. And I hope and pray it will get better because my personal life is deeply intertwined with the fate of the Russian people at this point.


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## cirdan

Before the Kievan Rus, Kiev was founded by Viking traders I believe, and the area was a hub where different cultures traded and intermingled. Supposedly Harald Godwinson, the later King Harald who fought against the Normans at the Battle of Hastings, spent some years of his youth there. Before that many other tribes and peoples lived there, some of them only transitorily, and the Ukraine was in a way a hub of civilizations, acting as a land bridge between Europe and Asia, and a place where people didn't only come to trade goods, but also influenced one another's ideas and philosophies.

Some historians say, for example, that the Hungarians lived in the southern Ukraine before moving West and settling present day Hungary in the 800s or thereabouts. As late as 1235 a Hungarian friar set out on an expedition East to discover if there were still Hungarians living there and he came back reporting that there were still plenty of people who could converse in some sort of archaic Hungarian. It is however disputed where exactly he had been. If his report was accurate these people must have vanished soon after as there is no more recent report of them. Before that other nations also settled the area and there are possible early linguistic links to the Levant and Mesopotamia, although evidence is too scant and controversial to say with any certainty.


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## jis

MODERATOR’S NOTE: Time to shift focus back to trains and leave medieval history for a different thread and forum please. Thank you for your understanding and participation.


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## west point

More rail news pictures from Ukraine.

The people who keep the refugee trains running out of Ukraine – photo essay | Ukraine | The Guardian


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## mcropod

Today's The Guardian has this fab article (and pix) on the Ukrainian rail effort during the current conflict:









The people who keep the refugee trains running out of Ukraine – photo essay


Ukrainian Railways employs more than 230,000 people, and almost all its employees have stayed in the country to work, making long, dangerous journeys every day to get people to safety




www.theguardian.com


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## Willbridge

A member of the U.S. Berlin Military Veterans Association, Chris Tureaud, was on a personal reunion trip in late March that included Poland, and posted this report:


> In Krakow, my friend and I went to the central train station to catch the rail to Prague. The whole station was jam packed full of Ukraine refugees and there was no rail space to be had. Poland and Germany were offering free rail to all Ukrainians to points west and south. It was good to see that there were so many volunteers assisting the refugees with transportation, food and drink and whatever else they needed. We ended up having to fly to Prague but no big deal. There were a lot of refugees in Prague as well but not nearly as many as in Krakow.


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## Willbridge

Henry Posner's German subsidiary is now carrying refugees. He says it "wasn't in the business plan."









For Ukrainian refugees traveling from Poland to Germany, Henry Posner III ’77’s train awaits


Every morning since March 10, passenger trains owned by Henry Posner III ’77 have stood waiting at the German border station of Frankfurt-Oder for hundreds of Ukrainian refugees who arrive aboard buses and trains after untold hardship.




alumni.princeton.edu


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## Seaboard92

Willbridge said:


> Henry Posner's German subsidiary is now carrying refugees. He says it "wasn't in the business plan."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Ukrainian refugees traveling from Poland to Germany, Henry Posner III ’77’s train awaits
> 
> 
> Every morning since March 10, passenger trains owned by Henry Posner III ’77 have stood waiting at the German border station of Frankfurt-Oder for hundreds of Ukrainian refugees who arrive aboard buses and trains after untold hardship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alumni.princeton.edu



I wonder if he could use a hand. I would volunteer my vacation time to help. I speak fluent Russian, German, and English. Somewhere I have his email I'll have to write to him.


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## Just-Thinking-51

It sounds like it one train a day. At this point I am sure there staff well.


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## neroden

cirdan said:


> Well, according to urban legend (and actually proven to be untrue, but whatever), the reason Spain went for a broader gauge was to make it more difficult for the French to invade. Well, the French didn't invade but the track gauge didn't come into that decision.
> 
> Having a different gauge didn't stop the Germans invading Russia in WW2 and didn't stop the counter-invasion of Russia into Central Europe.
> 
> So at the end of the day its a feel-good symbolic thing that doesn't stop invasions. The question is should a war-torn poor country be channeling big money into feel-good projects?
> 
> Finland also shares broad gauge with Russia for historic reasons, but nobody doubts those reasons are in the past, and as far as I know, nobody is asking to change the gauge for emotional or military reasons.


Finland also doesn't have cross-border links to Sweden or the rest of Europe. (Well, OK, one link in the far north which is economically impractical to use.)

Yes, so the two reasons for the gauge change:
(1) Russia actually did plan to use Ukrainian Railways for their military logistics. In Donbass, when they invaded in 2014, they did and still do use seized Ukrainian Railways for their logistics, and they are doing so west of Mariupol too. Ukraine blew a bunch of bridges near the border to prevent Russia from doing so in the rest of Ukraine during this invasion. Belarussian partisans who oppose Lukashenko did the same thing at the Belarus-Russian border. Having standard-gauged tracks will be a permanent defense against this.

(2) Ukraine is obviously not going to have significant interchange traffic with Russia for years to come. The war, the war crimes, and the looting has created a seething anger at Russia from ordinary Ukranians. And I don't think the situation will resolve quickly even after a peace deal-- consider that the Armenia-Turkey border has been closed for decades now. But Ukraine WILL have ever-increasing interchange traffic with Europe. There are multiple railway border crossings already: 5 with Poland (plus a 6th out of use), 2 with Slovakia, 2 with Hungary, 2 with Romania (plus a third out of use), and 2 more from Modolva to Romania. The gauge changes are seriously hampering integration with the European system and slowing down traffic. It's an economic development move to switch to standard gauge.

Most of Ukraine's railways are very modern but they still mostly use wooden ties. Changing the gauge is less of a nightmare than it is with concrete ties. And it's making it narrower, which is always easier than making it wider.

The big issue is having to regauge all the existing rolling stock, of which there is a lot. But Ukraine is motivated now. Might not happen. But it might.

It doesn't really make a difference with ordering rolling stock (all the major manufacturers can supply you with bogies of different widths) but it makes a big difference if you want to run trains -- both freight and passenger -- direct from Kyiv to Vienna or Warsaw, and they absolutely do want to do that.


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## neroden

By contrast, Lithuania has a single gauge-change point (connecting with Poland) so it isn't as economically troubling as having 13 gauge change points on so many borders. And they're building a standard-gauge line.

Of course this analysis could all change if there's a quick regime change in Russia, but it also might not. Ukrainians seem very intent on being economically independent of Russia after the war, and I don't blame them.


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## cirdan

Just some points.

When Spain started the switchover to standard gauge back in about 1990, they were saying the entire system would be switched over within 25 years. That means that according to the original plan, they should have been done 6 years ago. In actual fact aside from the high speed lines and a couple of connecting routes, the rest of the system is mostly still broad gauge and will remain so for he forseeable future. They are quietly forgetting they ever promised a total changeover, but they have already spent several times the initially estimated budget and will have to live with a fragmented network for generations to come.

In other words, it's one of those things that sounds good from a comfortable distance, but that isn't as good when it comes to the nitty gritty details.

Similarly to the Ukraine, the Spanish changeover was justified largely for ideological reasons, to symbolize that Spain was part of Europe. Spanish train traffic has traditionally been largely internal with international trains being a tiny part of the mix. The change of gauge was thus only a minor inconvenience in the bigger picture of things and never justified the money that has gone into it. Despite the present day provision of a continuous standard gauge corridor from many parts of Spain into France, the overall traffic mix hasn't really changed. Spanish rail traffic is still largely internal, and actually more so than it was 25 years ago. Largely because truck competition has been fierce and the railroad has been rather lame at acquiring international traffic, as well as being naturally disadvantaged due to the nature of much of the traffic (trucks picking up fruit and vegetables directly on a farm in Spain and driving directly to a distribution center in Germany), whereas internal freight flows include a lot of coal, minerals, steel and things, traffic for which the railroad has a natural advantage and aptitude, even if trains are in some cases now having to take longer routes due to network fragmentation.

Also, I think railroads are on an operational level often pragmatic and not political. So I remember that it didn't take long after the ending of hostilities between Croatia and Serbia for example for trains to resume between the two countries. There was even a night train from Munich to Istanbul I think that crossed several conflicting countries across the Balkans and that was only interrupted for a very brief period at the height of the war. Pragmatism often trumps politics because people want to get back to their jobs. Across Ukraine this will be even more significant because an important investor here is China and they are basically upgrading and modernizing infrastructure so that they can send freight trains from China into Europe. Any Ukrainian government that says no to such money would be shooting themself in the foot. The Chinese are building a huge gauge changing facility on the Ukrainian- Hungarian border and probably don't like the idea of tearing it up and rebuilding it a thousand miles or so to the east on the Russian border. They'd rather pull out of Ukraine altogether and route their trains via Turkey instead (which they are already doing BTW). So if Ukraine wants that money they would do whatever it takes to get that traffic back. 

Ukraine's rail system has actually been in steady decline over the last decades as car ownership has increased and also more people are flying. This will no doubt accelerate even further as Ukraine becomes more westernized and highway construction picks up which will make driving faster than the train on all key corridors. A massively disruptive program of spending money to change stuff for purely ideological reasons when they could be spending that money on actually improving things, could damage the system irrepairably.


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## Willbridge

Medicine sans Frontieres is running a different sort of special train, according to the BBC.

Hospital train - for civilians


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## Willbridge

Here's an update on how things are going. Along with everything else they are moving grain that might otherwise have gone out of the Black Sea ports,

Russia's attacks on Ukraine's supply lines are intensifying. Ukraine's national railway hasn't buckled (msn.com)


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## bunchesofun

We did a roundtrip from Kiev to either Mukachevo or Uzhhorod in 2020 (can't remember which) when we traveled to adopt our son. They served tea in those Russian cups with the glasses in a metal holder. I remember the bathroom floor was incredibly "wet" and when you flushed you saw the ground underneath the train. 17 hour ride. And back with our son.


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## cirdan

Willbridge said:


> Here's an update on how things are going. Along with everything else they are moving grain that might otherwise have gone out of the Black Sea ports,
> 
> Russia's attacks on Ukraine's supply lines are intensifying. Ukraine's national railway hasn't buckled (msn.com)



There have always been significant bulk grain flows across Eastern Europe, at least from my railfanning perspective. At certain times of the year you could see long grain trains in short succession trundling through Hungary for example. I always assumed these must be from Ukraine but they might also be from Romania. The grain hoppers had mostly French markings (according to the RIV codes), but also some Dutch, Belgian and German, so I am assuming that is where they were heading.


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## Willbridge

bunchesofun said:


> We did a roundtrip from Kiev to either Mukachevo or Uzhhorod in 2020 (can't remember which) when we traveled to adopt our son. They served tea in those Russian cups with the glasses in a metal holder. I remember the bathroom floor was incredibly "wet" and when you flushed you saw the ground underneath the train. 17 hour ride. And back with our son.


There was a lot of heavyweight equipment used in U.S. commute service or excursions that offered views of the track when flushed. It made the plumbing simple.

The tea in glass always seemed to be an Eastern or Central European thing, except that my grandmother - born in Oregon - had a set of them, too. I'm glad that you had the opportunity to see a bit of the country, aside from your successful mission.


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## Willbridge

cirdan said:


> There have always been significant bulk grain flows across Eastern Europe, at least from my railfanning perspective. At certain times of the year you could see long grain trains in short succession trundling through Hungary for example. I always assumed these must be from Ukraine but they might also be from Romania. The grain hoppers had mostly French markings (according to the RIV codes), but also some Dutch, Belgian and German, so I am assuming that is where they were heading.


Here's more about it.

With Ukraine's ports blocked, trains in Europe haul grain | AP News


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## west point

Does anyone know if all the affected rail facilities turn rail cars quickly? Thinking of 1 day or even12 hours.


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## Willbridge

Bombed bridge replaced and service restored.

Ukraine war: Rebuilt Kyiv railway bridge a symbol of hope - BBC News


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## Willbridge

west point said:


> Does anyone know if all the affected rail facilities turn rail cars quickly? Thinking of 1 day or even12 hours.


In this unusual situation it's hard to say. From watching European rail operations, it appears that as in the U.S. it depends on what type of service the cars are in. In 1971 I noticed that the train that used to be the _Balt-Orient Express _was departing Munich late, even though it was originating there. I asked a carman about it, and he explained that it had arrived late from the southeast. It had to be fumigated. On the other hand, commuter emu's were turned quickly.

I did get the impression that the Russians were sitting on a lot of spare cars, which allowed for long layovers.


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## Willbridge

More coverage, including the assistance of railroaders from outside of Ukraine. I'm reminded that the North Vietnamese kept putting their railway back into service in spite of "air power" attacks. As long as the replacement parts keep coming in...

Russian attacks on rail system fail to paralyze 'lifeline of Ukraine' | Reuters


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## west point

Willbridge said:


> Bombed bridge replaced and service restored.
> 
> Ukraine war: Rebuilt Kyiv railway bridge a symbol of hope - BBC News


 If the RR could get enough lift the bridge appears easily raised with temp support at rail level.


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## cirdan

Willbridge said:


> Here's more about it.
> 
> With Ukraine's ports blocked, trains in Europe haul grain | AP News



My own recent observations have been on Hungary's Balaton south shore line. The intercity train we travelled on overtook several long grain trains that had been put into sidings, many pulled by pairs of Slovak engines. We later went for a walk along the lake side from where we could also see the rail line and about four long grain trains passed us in about an hour. They had to be juggled in between the fairly frequent passenger trains and bear in mind this is a single track line, so that is quite an impressive achievement.

We didn't see any such trains going the other way so I assume the empties must be returning via a different route.

But all that said, this route does not appear to me to be a particularly logical or obvious route to run into Austria. A more likely destination might be Italy or one of the Adriatic ports (Trieste maybe?).


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## cirdan

Recent shots from Budapest kelenföld (taken on Wednesday evening) of the Kiew to Budapest train with two Ukrainian sleeping cars on the back . The rest of the train was made up of Hungarian day cars that started at the Hungarian Ukrainian border station at Szolnok. I think this train continues to Vienna.


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## jis

Ukraine, Moldova to resume railway services this autumn


Ukraine and Moldova are planning to resume railway services, namely freight railway operations, as soon as this autumn. — Ukrinform.




www.ukrinform.net


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## cirdan

jis said:


> Ukraine, Moldova to resume railway services this autumn
> 
> 
> Ukraine and Moldova are planning to resume railway services, namely freight railway operations, as soon as this autumn. — Ukrinform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ukrinform.net


I assume this link was not suspended due to the present war but has been out of user for longer than that?


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## Willbridge

First a load of watermelons from the Kherson region, then an unusual promotional ticket.



Ukraine launches ‘tickets to victory’ rail service


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