# Harassed For Photography



## WhoozOn1st (Nov 9, 2008)

This can't wait for the Trip Report.

Is there such a thing as an "Amtrak Special Agent?"

This morning (11-9-08) I was boarding Surfliner 775 at SAN when I was accosted at the car door by a seedy little guy with a beard and vaguely reptilian features. He flashed a Passport (why?), then a funny-looking document that indicated he was Amtrak Special Agent Pat. Thinking he was a loony, I said "Cool! My name's Patrick too," and turned to board. He stopped me, and said he had some questions. He was serious. "Oh GREAT," I thought, expecting a hassle about line jumping. I was ready to point out that although I was among the first to board, and not from the line, I had in fact been waiting at the station longer than anybody in the line. As usual, I had been hanging out for pictures of any action (nothing except light rail and station shots until 566 - my 775 - arrived 12 minutes late).

But it was photography that the troll had on his mind. He wanted to know why I had been walking around taking pictures. First of all, if he was so all-fired curious to know this, he had had the entire previous hour or so to inquire, instead of choosing to impede my boarding. I didn't bring this up, but politely explained that I like trains, like riding trains, enjoy taking pictures of trains, and do these things all the time. To finish, I spread my hands, shrugged, smiled, and said "I'm a railfan!"

"Yes, that's getting to be a big organization."

WOW. Rarely does one have the opportunity to witness somebody label themselves completely ignorant by uttering a single statement. Naturally I was stunned, and started to get a little worried. Ignorance scares me, especially in people who might have some control over me. And that's why I began with the above question: It is almost inconceivable to me that an "Amtrak Special Agent," if such a thing exists (and I had to assume it does), would be so thoroughly uninformed as to speak of my being a railfan in terms of me being a member of some "Railfan, The Organization."

After disabusing him of his wrongheaded notion that I'm part of any organization (didn't mention AGR membership - does that count?) I essentially repeated the stuff about liking trains, riding them, and photographing them, adding that I'd been riding and taking pictures in the area all weekend, and he was the first nonphotographer to express any interest.

He started rattling off some crap about security concerns, and I formed the distinct impression that no matter what I said, the clown's responses were pre-programmed. Probably at the General Moronics Corp. factory (Flotsam's Mistake, NJ), which turns out mindless automatons (and loonies) like Amtrak Special Agent Pat.

Finally he got to the meat of his mania. He said that in the Post-911 Era ("Here we go," I thought) there is concern about people who take pictures of crowds. I asked "What crowd did I take a picture of? There's no crowd here." "The people waiting at the station." "That's not a crowd. It's a boarding line, and I took a picture of the end of it, with the streetcar behind them." EDIT: Here again there had been time to question me earlier instead of hassling me during boarding; about 15 minutes.

He blathered more about the need for security, as representatives of the Dept. of Fear Mongering often do, asked me where I live, and my last name - which he texted into some Blackberry-looking gizmo - while blithely assuring me, in a veiled threat sort of way, that I was under no obligation to cooperate. Oh yeah? And if I don't? I just wanted to get a window seat, and had told him this twice, before on the third time he declared us done and wished me a good trip. You can imagine the choice reply I muttered under my breath as I finally climbed the stairs, and despite the worst efforts of Amtrak Special Agent Pat, managed to find a window seat in the coach/cafe car.

In retrospect it was interesting, in these tough economic times, to encounter somebody who DESERVES to be unemployed.

To whom do I complain? Don't care if it does any good, I wanna tell somebody at Amtrak how reprehensible this sort of harassment is, especially to someone who has been - and remains, despite this kind of treatment at the hands of idiot hirelings - an avid supporter and customer of Amtrak since its inception.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 9, 2008)

Hate to break it to ya... but...



> BackgroundSecretary of State Colin Powell, in consultation with the Attorney General, designated the following organizations, thereby placing them on the Terrorist Exclusion List (TEL). Ten groups were added to the TEL on April 29, 2004.
> 
> Terrorist Exclusion List Designees (alphabetical listing)
> 
> ...


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## GG-1 (Nov 9, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> This can't wait for the Trip Report.
> Is there such a thing as an "Amtrak Special Agent?"
> 
> Snip
> ...


Hope you gave him a PO box address



> In retrospect it was interesting, in these tough economic times, to encounter somebody who DESERVES to be unemployed.
> To whom do I complain? Don't care if it does any good, I wanna tell somebody at Amtrak how reprehensible this sort of harassment is, especially to someone who has been - and remains, despite this kind of treatment at the hands of idiot hirelings - an avid supporter and customer of Amtrak since its inception.


Would expect it to be the usual Customer Service address for complaints.

On a lighter note were you wearing your Fez?


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2008)

What you should have asked him is "why does Amtrak have a contest to submit the best picture each year if taking pictures is a problem?"

I'm quite certain that he wouldn't have had an answer for that one.


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## PetalumaLoco (Nov 9, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Hate to break it to ya... but...
> 
> 
> > BackgroundSecretary of State Colin Powell, in consultation with the Attorney General, designated the following organizations, thereby placing them on the Terrorist Exclusion List (TEL). Ten groups were added to the TEL on April 29, 2004.
> ...


Funny. Amtrak Railfanning Armada (AFA) doesn't show up with google.


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## PetalumaLoco (Nov 9, 2008)

AlanB said:


> What you should have asked him is "why does Amtrak have a contest to submit the best picture each year if taking pictures is a problem?"
> I'm quite certain that he wouldn't have had an answer for that one.


He probably has a daily quota to fill to justify his existence.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 9, 2008)

AlanB said:


> What you should have asked him is "why does Amtrak have a contest to submit the best picture each year if taking pictures is a problem?"
> I'm quite certain that he wouldn't have had an answer for that one.



I'm a big Bill O Right Fighter... I'm the type that, at Walmart, if they ask me for my receipt as I'm leaving (with shopping bags and middle aged mom behind me) I start quoting United States Code as I walk out the door...


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 9, 2008)

PetalumaLoco said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Hate to break it to ya... but...
> ...


Of course not! That's why they need "special" agents to track them down.. h34r:


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## the_traveler (Nov 9, 2008)

AlanB said:


> What you should have asked him is "why does Amtrak have a contest to submit the best picture each year if taking pictures is a problem?"
> I'm quite certain that he wouldn't have had an answer for that one.


... and the picture on the 2009 Amtrak wall calendar is a photo of a Surfliner at ..................... *SAN*!


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## profwebs (Nov 10, 2008)

Lucky for him he harassed a nice fella like you who wouldn't ask him why he waited an hour to come ask the questions. He may have heard obscenities from me depending on the mood I was in, and as soon as he told me I was under no obligation to cooperate, I would have walked away.

Also, it depends on his demeanor, as with any law enforcement agency, there are some people who understand the respect and attitude they give is directly proportional to the respect and attitude they receive in return.


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## WhoozOn1st (Nov 10, 2008)

GG-1 said:


> Hope you gave him a PO box address
> 
> 
> > In retrospect it was interesting, in these tough economic times, to encounter somebody who DESERVES to be unemployed.
> ...


Amtrak Special Agent Pat didn't pursue where I live beyond the town, and I only wear the fez for group events, like our Gatherings, or special railfan (NOT "The Organization") events like the San Diego steam excursion and Starlight Tehachapi detour.

As for complaining, since originally posting about this harassment I recalled that I have the business card and e-mail address of an Amtrak Service Quality and Product Management manager I met and spoke with aboard the Coast Starlight not too long ago. Think I'll start there.

While not one for boasts like "He picked on the wrong guy," I'm not gonna let the matter drop.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 10, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hope you gave him a PO box address
> ...


Don't miss the railfanning Godfather!

Seriously, if I ever run into Amtrak Special Agent Pat I'll extend my sincerest greetings from the Don.

One more time for effect...

Amtrak Special Agent Pat


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## WhoozOn1st (Nov 10, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> One more time for effect...
> Amtrak Special Agent Pat


Dude, I always write for effect. In this case Amtrak Special Agent Pat disgusted me on a personal level. I repeat his title and name with a combination of scorn and embarassment on behalf of all of us decent and non-ignorant people named Patrick. Amtrak Special Agent Pat, is in my view fortunate to be working for Amtrak in this enlightened era of employment for the mentally challenged.

I'm old enough that I worked for the state agency charged with such things at a time when the term "special," outside stuff like the FBI, romance, or occasions, was a euphemism for mentally retarded.

In those days Amtrak Special Agent Pat would have lived quite comfortably, free of any necessity to inflict his peculiar disability on the general public in order to collect a salary, in a nice Home.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 10, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > One more time for effect...
> ...


Well I agree with you in condoning the actions of Amtrak Special Agent Pat. I just hope that Amtrak Special Agent Pat doesn't have an account here. I doubt he (Amtrak Special Agent Pat) actually does.

That being the case, I invite Amtrak Special Agent Pat come and join "Railfans: The Organization" and then we can put all of this aside so he can go investigate Peace Fresno or something.

Until then, all AU members must be aware of Amtrak Special Agent Pats 'special needs' and note, than when a man next presents himself to us as "Amtrak Special Agent Pat" that we must educate him about "Railfans: The Organization" in a most cheerful manner.


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## WhoozOn1st (Nov 10, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Well I agree with you in condoning the actions of Amtrak Special Agent Pat.


Um, dude, I suggest that you consult a dictionary regarding the word "condone." Given the definitions writers (and people in general) usually use, you'd be hard pressed to find anything said in my posts, or any replies, to indicate any condoning of Amtrak Special Agent Pat's behavior.

I applaud your writing attempts, and congratulate you on your graduation, Summa Cum Louder, from the George W. Bush Skool of Higher Wordification, and potential elevation to the Dan Quayle School of Remedial Spelling & Grammar ("Can't Get No French Frys Widout No PotatoEs").

It's said that at campus parties it's hard to get a drink. The Bush daughters down most of 'em before anybody else has a chance.

Best of luck!


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 10, 2008)

if he made you miss you train could you have sued him for harassment and missing the train. maybe you should do that anyway. if enough of us railfans sue the word will go out you don't mess with the railfan organization  :lol: :lol:


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## MattW (Nov 10, 2008)

Perhaps slapping him with a citizens arrest? To be honest, I'm surprised he didn't slip "nucluar weapons" into it somehow. Let's see, a platform is considered public property right? (behind the yellow line of course) so technically, by harassing you, he was depriving you of your right to peaceably assemble or putting you in fear thereof.


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 10, 2008)

lets stage a protest lets get 100 of use members at every train station with cameras and the media and snap pictures of trains all day long with the news watching. THAT SHOULD TELL SECURITY TO BACK OFF.


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## had8ley (Nov 10, 2008)

WhoozOn1st said:


> This can't wait for the Trip Report.
> Is there such a thing as an "Amtrak Special Agent?"
> 
> This morning (11-9-08) I was boarding Surfliner 775 at SAN when I was accosted at the car door by a seedy little guy with a beard and vaguely reptilian features. He flashed a Passport (why?), then a funny-looking document that indicated he was Amtrak Special Agent Pat. Thinking he was a loony, I said "Cool! My name's Patrick too," and turned to board. He stopped me, and said he had some questions. He was serious. "Oh GREAT," I thought, expecting a hassle about line jumping. I was ready to point out that although I was among the first to board, and not from the line, I had in fact been waiting at the station longer than anybody in the line. As usual, I had been hanging out for pictures of any action (nothing except light rail and station shots until 566 - my 775 - arrived 12 minutes late).
> ...


Patrick;

I am sincerely sorry this happened to you. Let me explain something about RR'ing that you may or may not know. When there is a "budget crunch" the first two departments that our Class 1 hit was maintenance of way and the "special" agents. My first encounter with one was when I was spotting a carload of beer in downtown New Orleans. I heard a rustling in the weeds and threw some ballast to see if it was a wharf rat. Well up stands our special agent in Viet Cong black pajamas packing a sawed off shotgun~ I thought I was back in Nam! He told me he was staking out the beer car and not to let my switch lantern go out or he wouldn't hesitate to blow me away. I went and cut off the engine and went back to the yard office. The yardmaster's response to my howling? "Oh, he's a nut that threw off of the New Orleans force and we got stuck with him." The job pays next to nothing for a law enforcemnt officer and they literally have hundreds of miles to cover. I've seen them jump onto moving trains to drag hobos off. That same beer car goof ball had a hobo handcuffed to a telegraph pole in the yard one night. The mosquitoes were eating the poor guy up. It took four hours for the local parish cops to come pick him up for "trespassing." I've never been able to hold much of an intelligent conversation with many of them except the haz-mat special agents who have some schooling behind them.

I'm not condoning this agent's actions~ just giving you a background as to yes, they do exist, and yes, most of them qualify for a Looney Tunes cartoon.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Nov 10, 2008)

I definitely smell a rat here and it sounds like you encountered an impersonator of some sort or someone operating well out of his bounds. I would have firmly told him to go find something better to do, and if he so much as laid a hand on me, he would have met the ground so fast he wouldn't have time to think about what happened. At that point the law would have been on your side.


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## Steve4031 (Nov 10, 2008)

First of all, what seems to have been missed in the hoopla over the right to photograph is the fact this guy was note even a police officer. The OP stated he used a PASSPORT for ID. Any legitimate cop might would have a badge. (I know that one can buy fake badges, but this idiot didn't even bother to do that). I would not even bother to interact with somebody who did not properly ID themselves. Someone using fake/inappropriate ID in my opinion is only trying to take advantage of a victim and engage in criminal activity.


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## access bob (Nov 10, 2008)

had8ley said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> > This can't wait for the Trip Report.
> ...



let me add that the NS special agents have a well deserved reputation of being particularly nasty, stay off NS property, they have taken to arresting fishermen that cross a lightly used branch line to access a public riverfront when there is no road or underpass for example.

and they do arrest for tresspass and they usually make it stick, heard of a fisherman with a $200 fish, the cost of the fine.

was recently in SAN for the big "APTA convention and everyone in all the parts of the transit system were bending over backwards, I was allowed into the shop all sorts of things that would never happen, I commented to an operator if it was always like this, when she stopped laughing she said they had made it clear that the system was not going to have any incidents during the convention, that pretty much anything short of a hijacking was going to be overlooked.

the guy must need to get his quota back up to look good

Bob


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## MrFSS (Nov 10, 2008)

Steve4031 said:


> First of all, what seems to have been missed in the hoopla over the right to photograph is the fact this guy was not even a police officer. The OP stated he used a PASSPORT for ID. Any legitimate cop might would have a badge. (I know that one can buy fake badges, but this idiot didn't even bother to do that). I would not even bother to interact with somebody who did not properly ID themselves. Someone using fake/inappropriate ID in my opinion is only trying to take advantage of a victim and engage in criminal activity.


Patrick - I have to agree, here, I don't think the guy was an Amtrak employee or agent of any type. I think I would have found a conductor real quick to see what was going on.

Did this guy seem to bother any other passengers? Surely some others were taking pictures, too.

Let us know what Amtrak says about all this.


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## had8ley (Nov 10, 2008)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I definitely smell a rat here and it sounds like you encountered an impersonator of some sort or someone operating well out of his bounds. I would have firmly told him to go find something better to do, and if he so much as laid a hand on me, he would have met the ground so fast he wouldn't have time to think about what happened. At that point the law would have been on your side.


Hold on a minute. Special Agents do exist and are commissioned law enforcement officers. One hand on them and you would have had two hands in cuffs!


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 10, 2008)

report it to the police saying you were harassed or approached by the suspicious person. no id just a passport.give a FULL DISCRIPTION of the person. sounds like some nut job who escaped from a mental home.


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 10, 2008)

had8ley said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > I definitely smell a rat here and it sounds like you encountered an impersonator of some sort or someone operating well out of his bounds. I would have firmly told him to go find something better to do, and if he so much as laid a hand on me, he would have met the ground so fast he wouldn't have time to think about what happened. At that point the law would have been on your side.
> ...


THEN WHY DID THE GUY USE A PASSPORT INSTEAD OF A REAL BADGE. THE GUY WAS A FAKE.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 10, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > OlympianHiawatha said:
> ...


Didn't he flash a secondary ID? Hmmm...

Wait- who's Patrick? is there a second Patrick on this board here, other than Amtrak Special Agent Patrick Smith?


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## MrFSS (Nov 10, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> > had8ley said:
> ...


Whooz is also Patrick, to his close friends PJ!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 10, 2008)

MrFSS said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > KISS_ALIVE said:
> ...


Ahh! So Patrick the Amtrak Railfan had a negative encounter with Amtrak Special Agent Pat!!

Aye, there's the rub.. The irony continues!


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## WhoozOn1st (Nov 10, 2008)

Let me briefly restate: The Passport was just the first thing he showed, and that seemed to be almost by accident. Given SAN's location perhaps security clowns have to cross the border on occasion, even though the trains don't. Then came the document that purported whoever the guy was to be Amtrak Special Agent Pat. I'm not a document expert, and it may have been okay; I wouldn't know one way or the other. It was shown from an official-looking, wallet-like credential holder. As for a badge, I honestly don't recall whether the guy was wearing one or not. I was so taken aback by the ambush nature of the encounter, and so intent on being rid of the geek (real agent or otherwise) and getting a seat that I guess the badge issue escaped me at the time.

I've talked with Amtrak bulls on a number of occasions, but they were always easily identifiable as such on platforms. Never seen a plainclothes type (which is the whole point, I guess), much less dealt with one, before.

The issue of possible impersonation didn't occur to me until I was in my seat and had time to sit there fuming over the incident. I'm still really angry, real bull or not, and am waiting 'til I cool off a bit before pursuing the matter. If Amtrak Special Agent Pat was a fake, Amtrak needs to know about it.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 10, 2008)

> The issue of possible impersonation didn't occur to me until I was in my seat and had time to sit there fuming over the incident. I'm still really angry, real bull or not, and am waiting 'til I cool off a bit before pursuing the matter. If Amtrak Special Agent Pat was a fake, Amtrak needs to know about it.


Perhaps all of us should have been on that train. We can all call and complain if we were...

But then we only make Amtrak Special Agent Pat sound right... Like railfans are organized.

He thought of this ahead of time! DAMN YOU AMTRAK SPECIAL AGENT Pat!!!!!!


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## profwebs (Nov 10, 2008)

Wonder what the clown woulda done if you took his picture? From your description, I have an image of the guy in my mond. I know most of you probably haven't watched the movie "How High", but there is a campus security guard in it that I see as SA Pat, lol.


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## lrdc9_metroplitan_sub (Nov 10, 2008)

Petaluma, it may not show up, but your post is the first on the Google search for it.


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## PetalumaLoco (Nov 10, 2008)

lrdc9_metroplitan_sub said:


> Petaluma, it may not show up, but your post is the first on the Google search for it.


How bout that, I'm famous!


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## Scrapmuch (Nov 10, 2008)

um, where can we see your pictures? that's what I'd like to know!


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## Acela150 (Nov 10, 2008)

Seeing that i'll be down at the station with the worst Amtrak Police officers in the nation i'll try to ask them. If they don't answer me i'll bring up your claim. Some are nice and some are just bullies at 30th street. I had one cop harass me when I was taking pictures of the Barack Obama special running through Wayne, PA. To make it even better I was standing in a septa parking lot and he claimed that I was on Amtrak property. I asked to talk to his on-site supervisor who gave me the same answer that I was on Amtrak property. I got both offercers names and went t 30th street on a septa local that same day and asked to see the Supervisor of all Philadelphia Amtrak Police offercers. She said that the Septa lots were owned by Amtrak which is a whole bunch of BS! But here's where it gets better! I know Radnor townships police chiefs wife. Wayne is in Radnor township. I was able to talk to him about te Septa parking lot incident and both of us went to 30th street with papers that prove the lot is owned by septa. The Amtrak Police stuck with thier story. I wrote a letter to Alex Kummant about my problem. He called me and said that he fired the offecer and the supervisor and gave me a $1000 gift certificate in person when he came up to PHL and had lunch with me and we talked Amtrak for upwards of 3 hours.

To make the story short I got two Amtrak Cops fired!!! That's a big deal!!!


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## gswager (Nov 11, 2008)

I've seen one plainclothes officer on train once. He was wearing a badge on his belt and a gun.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 11, 2008)

gswager said:


> I've seen one plainclothes officer on train once. He was wearing a badge on his belt and a gun.


Wake up it's 1984!

Actually on LD trains, I'm not too upset about plainclothes agents... but I'd rather they not pack heat.


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## WhoozOn1st (Nov 11, 2008)

Scrapmuch said:


> um, where can we see your pictures? that's what I'd like to know!


What pictures would you like to see? Scrapmuch, it's fairly important and helpful here at the Amtrak Unlimited Forums to be as specific as possible with requests such as yours. Tell us what pictures you want to see, and I'm certain that somebody will be happy to help out.

"Where can we see your pictures?" in these forums is like going to the library and saying "I'd like to read a book." 

Welcome to Amtrak Unlimited!


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## had8ley (Nov 11, 2008)

access bob said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > WhoozOn1st said:
> ...


Railroaders call the NS the "**** Southern" and for good reason. Although they have won the Harriman Award for safety for the past 18 or so years they fire you if you get hurt~ go figure that one out! It's a tough place to work and I'm sure they have elevated a lot of employees blood pressures from what I have witnessed in their rules classes. (If you deliver a train in interchange to them in New Orleans you have to take their rules classes. The trainmaster was such a jerk he must have ace'd his ***** test.)


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## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 11, 2008)

PetalumaLoco said:


> lrdc9_metroplitan_sub said:
> 
> 
> > Petaluma, it may not show up, but your post is the first on the Google search for it.
> ...


The first google hit for petalumloco is also on this site, so I think you already were famous.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 11, 2008)

had8ley said:


> Railroaders call the NS the "**** Southern" and for good reason. Although they have won the Harriman Award for safety for the past 18 or so years they fire you if you get hurt~ go figure that one out! It's a tough place to work and I'm sure they have elevated a lot of employees blood pressures from what I have witnessed in their rules classes. (If you deliver a train in interchange to them in New Orleans you have to take their rules classes. The trainmaster was such a jerk he must have ace'd his ***** test.)


You have to wonder if firing people for getting hurt would discourage them from reporting minor accidents, and if a workforce that doesn't report minor accidents would result in safety statistics that suggest that fewer minor accidents happen.

I'm amazed that unions and or lawyers would let them get away with having that policy.


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## RailFanLNK (Nov 12, 2008)

"Vatrick G. vee have the same name, vee want you to come to the front of vee train and ask you some questions.......my vecial assitant is named Vadolph, and vee want to confisvate vour vamera." :lol: Sounds like the Asst. Conductor on the Carolinian from NYC-DC. I was the ONLY person who was told to not take pictures.


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 12, 2008)

UP and NS are the WORST railroads when it comes to railfans


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## rogers55 (Nov 12, 2008)

Found this on a police job search site:

Amtrak - Washington

THE SAFETY OF OUR PASSENGERS, OUR EMPLOYEES, THE PUBLIC AND OUR OPERATING ENVIRONMENT IS OUR HIGHEST PRIORITY Position Title Special Agent CT Surveillance Department Office of Security Strategy and Special Operations Location Washington, DC Posting # 90103121 INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL APPLICANTS SUMMARY OF DUTIES Develops and implements (through complex coordination with Amtrak and non-Amtrak stakeholders) CT, physical security, cyber security, red team, and intelligence operations investigations. Identifies best practices for CT, physical security, cyber security, red team and intelligence operations and investigations and makes recommendations for their implementation. Reports on and informs key leaders about investigation findings and recommendations. Provides accurate and timely oral and written...

Maybe he was legitimate after all.

I probably would have accused him of being a nut case and got arrested.

Still a jerk though.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 12, 2008)

Never doubted he was legit-

I doubted whether he was an idiot.


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 12, 2008)

when they ambush you when getting on the train its hard to tell if there real. he had over a hour to confront whoozeonfirst but waits till hes getting on the train.


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## AKA (Nov 12, 2008)

I would have taken out my cell phone started to call 911. If he stayed ,the real police could work it out from there. Please let us know what Amtrak has to say about this. Can he be ID ed as a real agent by Amtrak? If he is real then Amtrak should have no trouble ID ing him.

I think this guy is some kind of nut case.

One more thing, should he be under a train? :unsure:


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## GG-1 (Nov 12, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Never doubted he was legit-
> I doubted whether he was an idiot.


From Patrick's Post I never doubed he was an idiot.

I did wonder if he was Legit

Aloha


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## Sam Damon (Nov 12, 2008)

Acela150 said:


> I had one cop harass me when I was taking pictures of the Barack Obama special running through Wayne, PA. To make it even better I was standing in a septa parking lot and he claimed that I was on Amtrak property. I asked to talk to his on-site supervisor who gave me the same answer that I was on Amtrak property. I got both offercers names and went t 30th street on a septa local that same day and asked to see the Supervisor of all Philadelphia Amtrak Police offercers. She said that the Septa lots were owned by Amtrak which is a whole bunch of BS! But here's where it gets better! I know Radnor townships police chiefs wife. Wayne is in Radnor township. I was able to talk to him about te Septa parking lot incident and both of us went to 30th street with papers that prove the lot is owned by septa. The Amtrak Police stuck with thier story. I wrote a letter to Alex Kummant about my problem. He called me and said that he fired the offecer and the supervisor and gave me a $1000 gift certificate in person when he came up to PHL and had lunch with me and we talked Amtrak for upwards of 3 hours.
> To make the story short I got two Amtrak Cops fired!!! That's a big deal!!!


Really? I'll take your words at face value, but I'm a bit skeptical, 'coz I used to work in the newsbiz. President Reagan's words, "Trust, but verify" strike me at this time.

Anyone on this forum have good ideas to verify this story?


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## Sam Damon (Nov 12, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > Railroaders call the NS the "**** Southern" and for good reason. Although they have won the Harriman Award for safety for the past 18 or so years they fire you if you get hurt~ go figure that one out! It's a tough place to work and I'm sure they have elevated a lot of employees blood pressures from what I have witnessed in their rules classes. (If you deliver a train in interchange to them in New Orleans you have to take their rules classes. The trainmaster was such a jerk he must have ace'd his ***** test.)
> ...


Interesting you folks should bring this up. Pardon the digression here.

Seems to me the NS crew that splattered chlorine gas over Graniteville(sp?), SC were company men to the end -- right up until NS threw them under the bus, even if they deserved it. I think in that incident, they thought the company would take them back if they protected NS as best they could.

Back to Amtrak...

I've said it before, I'll say it again. There are only two ways this crap is going to stop. The first way is to organize mobs of photographers to embarass Amtrak into getting rid of this nonsense. The other way is for any self-respecting railroad photography enthusiast to attend a NARP regional meeting, and (verbally) beat up any Amtrak executives on this issue.

I fear this sort of thing is getting out of control.


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## ralfp (Nov 12, 2008)

rogers55 said:


> Position Title Special Agent CT Surveillance


CAT scans? Those searches are disturbingly thorough.


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 13, 2008)

funny we get in trouble for taking pictures but what about video. that should be even worse right. sense it shows the train moving and stopping and more then one car LOL search google for train videos theres millions out there


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 13, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> funny we get in trouble for taking pictures but what about video. that should be even worse right. sense it shows the train moving and stopping and more then one car LOL search google for train videos theres millions out there


If they really want to crack down on it, all they need is a YouTube admin...


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 13, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> > funny we get in trouble for taking pictures but what about video. that should be even worse right. sense it shows the train moving and stopping and more then one car LOL search google for train videos theres millions out there
> ...


my point is that they think its suspicious if you want to take pictures of trains if your not building one


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## access bob (Nov 13, 2008)

ralfp said:


> rogers55 said:
> 
> 
> > Position Title Special Agent CT Surveillance
> ...



CT, Counter Terrorism......

Bob


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## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 13, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> when they ambush you when getting on the train its hard to tell if there real. he had over a hour to confront whoozeonfirst but waits till hes getting on the train.


Did that thread about all things Am mention AmBush as what happens when the Bush administration's ``counter-terrorism'' descends upon Amtrak?


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## sky12065 (Nov 13, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> > when they ambush you when getting on the train its hard to tell if there real. he had over a hour to confront whoozeonfirst but waits till hes getting on the train.
> ...


In addition, I'll bet that it also didn't mention that AmBivalence is what may cause any future administrations to discontine "counter-terrorism" from decending upon Amtrak!


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## Joel N. Weber II (Nov 13, 2008)

This article about a bridge collapse mentions that the NTSB found a photograph taken a few hours before the collapse helpful. Just something to think about when weighing the risks of letting citizens photograph infrastructure.

(Note that we've had an accidental bridge collapse in the US in the last 10 years, but I don't think we've lost any bridges to terrorist attacks in that time.)


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 13, 2008)

sky12065 said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > KISS_ALIVE said:
> ...


Revive the thread then! I can't find it...

EDIT: they've been added to 'All Things Am-'



> This article about a bridge collapse mentions that the NTSB found a photograph taken a few hours before the collapse helpful. Just something to think about when weighing the risks of letting citizens photograph infrastructure.
> (Note that we've had an accidental bridge collapse in the US in the last 10 years, but I don't think we've lost any bridges to terrorist attacks in that time.)


Sad truth is, if anybody wanted to perform an act of terrorism against Amtrak or the RR system in general, it would be easy as pie. It's as simple as getting on board at a small station (like my home of ALC) and carry-on a backpack's worth of C4 with ya. I promise you nobody would say a thing until the train got into either CHI or WAS and then *boom*.

Its silly to think we can prevent it. And all this showmanship with harassing officers is just dumb.

Totally, utterly, in every sense of the word: dumb.


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## MattW (Nov 13, 2008)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> sky12065 said:
> 
> 
> > Joel N. Weber II said:
> ...


And the point of that will be? Even if someone packed all their 3 checked bags and all the carryon allowed with C4, the worst that would happen is it explodes between two packed commuter trains killing about 400 people at most counting the people in the station. (yes, I know I'm being harsh and cold here, but sometimes you have to do that to get a point across). Granted, get more terrorists and that's more checked bags and carryon, but the total damage wouldn't physically be that much. Is a terrorist seriously going to waste their time on a relatively well secured train running a chance he'll be caught, or would he pack a truck full of explosives like Oklahoma City? A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist which makes the rail system one of the safest forms of transport in the world. The political fallout would be massive however in this time of heightened crap.


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## Chris J. (Nov 13, 2008)

MattW said:


> A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist


Some terrorists in Spain thought it was.


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## Acela150 (Nov 13, 2008)

I got a reply from my friend at Amtrak and the e-mail is copied and pasted below:

yes we do, they are in the department of Security Strategy and Special Ops. I have no idea what there specific jobs are, but that department generally works with Homeland Security. I don’t think they perform “police” type function, because we have a separate police department that does that.

Their's the answer that guy shouldn't even have bothered you!


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## printman2000 (Nov 14, 2008)

Chris J. said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist
> ...



If I remember correctly, that was in an underground metro system. Doing something underground on a metro system is much different than a long distance or even commuter train.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 14, 2008)

printman2000 said:


> Chris J. said:
> 
> 
> > MattW said:
> ...


The underground attack was in London. The Madrid attack was to commuter trains.


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## printman2000 (Nov 14, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Chris J. said:
> ...


Could it be that all the bombs went off while in crowded stations? I cannot remember, but it seems there were a lot of people around when they went off, not just the people on the trains. I could be wrong.


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## PRR 60 (Nov 14, 2008)

printman2000 said:


> Could it be that all the bombs went off while in crowded stations? I cannot remember, but it seems there were a lot of people around when they went off, not just the people on the trains. I could be wrong.


A total of ten bombs went off on four different trains. 191 died. I believe all the deaths were passengers on board the trains.

BBC Special Report


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## ralfp (Nov 14, 2008)

printman2000 said:


> If I remember correctly, that was in an underground metro system. Doing something underground on a metro system is much different than a long distance or even commuter train.


As PRR 60 stated, that was London, which actually points out that rail systems are vulnerable, just like so many other parts of our lives. One bomber was turned away from the Tube and hit a bus instead.

Trying to make any one part of our lives secure from terrorism is foolish; it's like sticking a finger into a dam to plug one of 1000 leaks. Stopping all the leaks, just like protecting all potential targets, is impossible. Sure, you can stop that one, but it does not matter. Outside of a few super vulnerable, strategically important, or symbolically important targets, trying to stop a terrorist from attacking is a lost cause. Now if we had a police state with a large secret police, an even larger network of informers... it still wouldn't stop the terrorists.


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## printman2000 (Nov 14, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Could it be that all the bombs went off while in crowded stations? I cannot remember, but it seems there were a lot of people around when they went off, not just the people on the trains. I could be wrong.
> ...


Okay, okay, stop reminding me my memory is flawed.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Nov 14, 2008)

MattW said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > sky12065 said:
> ...


The point of terrorism is to strike terror. Bombing a train would freak a ton of people out. Bombing a town hall would do the same. You don't need to nuke NYC to get your point across.

A definite terrorist attack on Amtrak would put a lot of jobs on the line, make everybody mad, and probly punch another hole in the economy. When a bomb goes off, the market hiccups.

So yes there is a point? But is there a way to stop it? Nope.


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## the Other Mike (Nov 15, 2008)

While I find this thread interesting, ( and in no way do I intend to offend ANYONE), I must wonder about people's observations. Maybe it's just me, an oddball who is just as concerned with people watching as railfanning.

Last year I had an "encounter" on the Sunset.

First, a little about me.

53, male, divorced, high school band director, President of our model railroad club for 16 years, Supt of Ops of the model railroad club for 20+ years. General sarcastic SOB that thinks I'm the ONLY authority that matters..........comes from being a band director for 30 years.

I get to UPT and as I get my ticket the announcement is made that they are boarding sleeping cars..............I walk right up through the gate and to my car and room.

as I'm eating lunch with a Calif. couple on their 4th week of a rail/cruise trip, the announcement is made that we are holding the siding waiting for our "sister" train...................That strikes me funny and as I sit and think to myself, I realize its NOT our sister train "so to speak" because our sister train is actually in Arizona or New Mexico at the time ( can't remember now ) and that the train we are waiting for is actually something like 16 hours late..........

Typical reaction of mine is to say out loud " thats Bulls###" thats not our sister train, that is yesterdays train.................to which many people in the diner look up in a questioning manner.

At the next "smoke stop", I went to the platform and lit a cigarette with the rest of the great unwashed from the sleeper and entered into idle chit chat. As I looked up the platform towards the front of the train, I saw him coming.

A VERY tall man dressed in a black suit with a conductors cap..............looking AT me. As he got closer I noticed the buldge under his arm as well as no name plate on the conductors cap. As he got to our group of nicotine mainliners, he started idle conversation but kept looking at me. I asked him point blank.........."so, are you Homeland Security or Amtrak or what?" ( by this time he realized as fat as I am and light complected I was not likely to be a terriost) He said " well, you've made a few people nerivous Mr. P####, how do you know so much about trains ?"

One of the many visitors to our club is the HS agent at UPT and has told us many stories so I just had to be a smartass and tell him he didn't need to worry about ( insert 3 different stories about HS arrests in the last six months at UPT). That REALLY got him going and eyeing me up and asking how I knew about those arrests...................I laughed and asked why my luggage was not inspected or put through any machines.................or was it because "so & so" knows me personally ?

Once he understood my friendship with the HS agent he said " you must be one of those guys from the model railroad club..............but how did I know he was security ? Not like he stuck out like a sore thumb with the pistol under his coat or the lack of a brass plate on his hat.........NOOOOOOOOO.

From then on the trip was great and I know I made a lasting impression on the guy as well as many of the crew who stopped to chat with me the remainder of the trip.

Maybe it's my age, maybe it's because I look like Santa Claus, maybe it's because of my years of teaching....who knows. My only suggestion is to not get upset but to be quiet and turn the tables on them.

When security comes up, ask to see their ID as you hand them yours. Question THEM, In a quiet manner gain control of who questions who. Smile ALOT in a sly way and make a game out of it. If you #### them off it's only going to make your life harder and then you will be upset and ruin your "train time". But if you handle it correctly, you will have them eating out of YOUR hand and making sure to give you the best service they can. Keep in mind that their "superiors" would not fight them or get into a debate with them like most people do. When you keep your calm and question THEM with a slight air of authority they will "usually" double check their attitudes just in case you ARe a superior of theirs checking their job performance.

But watch my luck, next time I'll get arrested for being a cocky SOB know it all.............

< stepping off the soapbox>


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## GG-1 (Nov 15, 2008)

the Other Mike said:


> First, a little about me.
> 53, male, divorced, high school band director, President of our model railroad club for 16 years, Supt of Ops of the model railroad club for 20+ years. General sarcastic SOB that thinks I'm the ONLY authority that matters..........comes from being a band director for 30 years.


Aloha

I am a stage hand, If you give us a hard time we will turn of the lights and sound :lol: So who is in control :lol:

But what you said about remaining calm and friendly ... very good advise.

Mahalo

Eric


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## the Other Mike (Nov 16, 2008)

GG-1 said:


> the Other Mike said:
> 
> 
> > First, a little about me.
> ...


Ahhh, but as a high school band director for 30 years, I've also spent my fair share of time resetting both sound and lights how "I" want them as well as being asked by many groups to double check their crews since they usually have a big problem between sound "check' and a live house.

But please keep in mind, I'm not good at it because I'm smart, it's because I've done it long enough to screw up things every way possible so the end result is the ONLY correct way.

I'm the blind squirel who almost always finds a nut ............ :blush:


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Nov 16, 2008)

the Other Mike said:


> I'm the blind squirel who almost always finds a nut ............ :blush:


Well indeed, you came to the right place then!!!! I am one of 'em!!! :lol: :blink: :lol:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

OBS gone freight...


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## tp49 (Nov 16, 2008)

If something seemed fishy to me in the situation the OP was in, I would have asked him the following questions:

1) Can you articulate to me your probabale cause for stopping me?

2) Am I being detained or am I free to go?

3) Would you please call/radio for a uniformed officer here on scene. (Especially helpful when stopped by a plainclothesed officer. Most real officers or agents will call for a uniform to show up.)

4) May I have your name, title, shield number and supervisor's name?

I wonder if Patrick's heard back from his email yet?


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## amtrakwolverine (Nov 16, 2008)

the Other Mike said:


> A VERY tall man dressed in a black suit with a conductors cap..............looking AT me. As he got closer I noticed the buldge under his arm as well as no name plate on the conductors cap. As he got to our group of nicotine mainliners, he started idle conversation but kept looking at me. I asked him point blank.........."so, are you Homeland Security or Amtrak or what?" ( by this time he realized as fat as I am and light complected I was not likely to be a terriost) He said " well, you've made a few people nerivous Mr. P####, how do you know so much about trains ?"


nervous all you did was make a comment about the train. whats the big deal. is it against the law to know ANYTHING about a train. I guess it is. can't take pictures can't railfan can't do anything with real trains . this ####### sucks.


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## the Other Mike (Nov 16, 2008)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> the Other Mike said:
> 
> 
> > A VERY tall man dressed in a black suit with a conductors cap..............looking AT me. As he got closer I noticed the buldge under his arm as well as no name plate on the conductors cap. As he got to our group of nicotine mainliners, he started idle conversation but kept looking at me. I asked him point blank.........."so, are you Homeland Security or Amtrak or what?" ( by this time he realized as fat as I am and light complected I was not likely to be a terriost) He said " well, you've made a few people nerivous Mr. P####, how do you know so much about trains ?"
> ...


I fear thiings will get much worse...............and never get better.


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