# Auto Train Cuts



## printman2000

Did not see this posted anywhere after a search so here is a report from Gene Poon...



> Amtrak Southeast Deputy General Manager Tom Kirk and Auto Train route director Kathy Brewer have announced service cuts and changes on Auto Train as detailed:
> 
> 1. Remove First Class Lounge, all pax to use one Lounge Car.
> 
> a. Eliminate LSA, $550,000 labor cost reduction
> 
> b. Eliminate complimentary wine and cheese
> 
> c. Removing Lounge to add 5th coach for revenue passengers
> 
> d. Target date - 3/14
> 
> 2. Eliminate complimentary wine in diner
> 
> a. Sleeper and Coach diner @ $275,000 ($221,500 and $54,000
> 
> respectively)
> 
> b. Target date - 3/14
> 
> c. Also an OIG report item (named in Inspector General report on
> 
> food and beverage costs -GP)
> 
> 3. Add 5th Coach
> 
> a. Increase revenue $1,500,000
> 
> b. Target date - 3/14
> 
> 4. Realign consist to have food service cars together and centered in
> 
> train
> 
> a. Sleeper diner
> 
> b. Table car
> 
> c. Coach diner
> 
> d. Coach Lounge
> 
> e. Start staggered seating in Sleeper Diner
> 
> 5. Move to single menu for all diners
> 
> a. Target date - May menu change
> 
> b. Incremental savings on F&B (TBA i.e.: linen elimination cost
> 
> savings)
> 
> c. Eliminate Sleeper Diner Food Specialist (no china) $550,000 labor
> 
> savings
> 
> d. Initiate at room beverage service (revenue) for sleeper
> 
> passengers in lieu wine
> 
> e. Initiate alcohol sales promotion in diner
> 
> 6. Pass rider fee initiative
> 
> a. Revenue
> 
> i. Average 8050 annual pass riders @ $30 fee = $214,000 (use
> 
> as F&B transfer)
> 
> ii. Average 4600 vehicles @ $75 fee = $345,000
> 
> iii. Total revenue generated = $586,000
> 
> b. Also an OIG report item
> 
> c. Need to work with Marketing to implement
> 
> [SIZE=11pt]Total cost savings initiative $1,564,000 Total P&L impact $3,650,000 (F&B P&L impact $1,777,000)[/SIZE]


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## yarrow

admitting that i know very little about it, those sure seem like inflated numbers


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## afigg

Thanks for posting this. Good to have a precise list of the changes and what the cost savings are. Now we can have the AT changes discussed in a new thread, because I expect this will be a _looong_ thread in a few days.

Looks to me that the reason for replacing the second lounge car with a coach car is to increase capacity for more revenue sales. As for dropping the china, wine & cheese amenities, it is now clear that the LD trains are moving to a more utilitarian travel approach. With demand often hitting the limits of capacity, in this case for the AT, I can see the reasoning Why add these "frills" if they can sell the seats and rooms anyway? A big experiment for the LD trains is underway.


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## Naysayer

Looks like Sleeper Class is becoming less and less like First Class, and more like simply Coach with a room.


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## rrdude

As petty as many think these cuts are, if true. I'm done. We'll fly. I'm a little pissed 'cause I have tix for 4/10 with fam on AT, RT, like we usually do each spring. Be interesting to see how my wife, certainly a "non-train" person, will react, if at all, to the changes. (if they are real, and if they take place)

Messin' with the rich Northeastern Snow Birds. (not me) not good move Amtrak. Hell, maybe most of them just sit in their rooms the whole trip anyway...

I really didn't think the day would come when I _wouldn't _ consider rail-travel my first option, but if these cuts are true, along with the other cuts, what's the point? Save up for Iowa Pacific, or the Canadian (hurry).

Amtrak seems to have forgotten it's not just about *getting to* your destination, it's about *how* you get there. They used to market the hell out of this notion.

Now, "Come ride in our tin can, eat blah food off plastic plates and paper table-clothes........See America at See level, and see how far are standards have fallen......"

Putting one SSL on the AT, that's just beyond nuts.....I mean the scenery sux, I'll give ya that, but it's (well it _was)_ nice to be able to get out of your utilitarian room, and walk around a bit, and not have to wait in line for a cocktail, or even a seat. I can't believe what an old-fart I must sound like to a lot of readers, it just ticks me off that I am even writing this.....

But for someone who has seen how *good* Amtrak *could be*, (And I never got to truly experience pre-Amtrak, too young) it's just well, disgusting. I really feel that way. All the advantages are there for the taking-and-the-making, and they squander them away. Virgin Rail, "Come save Amtrak". Perhaps the time *has come* for privatization, with guaranteed subsidy for a certain level of service...

You can bet yer arse I'll be burning all my points this year...............


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## jis

It would be interesting to see what actual impact this has on ridership and revenues.I have no clue. I have given up long time back all my attempts to understand what makes someone use a particular service. So I guess, we'll see.

Clearly one has not traveled by _Virgin Rai_l (or _Virgin Trains _as they prefer to call themselves) too much if one seriously expects them to come and save _Amtrak_, since they do not run any sleeper service whatsoever. They mostly run airline style quite cramped Standard Class and slightly less cramped First Class sitting accommodation. But I guess that is neither here, nor there. The only sleeper services in UK is run by _First Great Western_ (a subsidiary of a bus company) - _The Night Riviera_, and by _First ScotRai_l ( another subsidiary of the same bus company) - the _Caledonian Sleeper_ service. The only connection between the _Caledonian Sleeper_ service and _Virgin Trains_ is that the _Caledonian Sleeper_ customers can use the _Virgin Trains_ lounge at _London Euston_.

If you desire _Virgin Trains_' seat pitch instead of _Amtrak_'s all I can do is shake my head in utter disbelief!


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## henryj

As they say, Amtrak cuts off it's nose to spite it's face.


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## Bob Dylan

If this is True, Wait till Mica and the other Florida and NE Politicians start hearing from the Regulars that have made the Auto Train such a success! Look for I-85 and 95 to have more Traffic heading to/from Florida and Virginia soon as well as an increase in Business for the Silver Trains and Rental Cars! Even Airlines will probably gain some business if this poorly thought out Bean Counting is implemented! Well, it works for the Airlines seems to be the idea! hboy:

It looks like Boardman and his Team have given in to the Anti-Rail Crazies in Congress and have started "Nickel and Dimeing" the LD Trains!  As henry says, they are "cutting off their nose to spite their face!" By any other name this is just another "Standardization" Scheme (Cross Country Cafes/Simplified Dinning etc) and another example of "if it works, change it!"

Along with "three day a week" Trains how did those plans work out???


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## FormerOBS

rrdude:

Are you going north or south on April 10? I'll be going north. When are you returning?


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## fairviewroad

Question about item 4b in the memo: What is a "table car"? [i've never ridden the AT, so I don't know if that's already a "thing" there]

Also, if they are adding a revenue coach, won't they need to add "car carrier" cars? Do they have the equipment/capacity to do this?

I know there are some on here who would jump at the chance to ride the AT without having to have a car along, but that doesn't seem to be part of the proposal.


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## jis

How many cars does the Auto Train carry on a typical trip? How many car carriers are needed to carry the cars of one Coach worth of passengers?


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## OlympianHiawatha

Sounds like it is time to get rid of Boardman and all the other bloated staff and bring in someone who knows how to run a customer oriented business and provide CUSTOMER SERVICE.


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## printman2000

Just my 2 cents, these changes do not bother me.

First class lounge, would be nice, but one lounge car seems enough for an 18 hour trip, most of which is overnight.

Complimentary wine at dinner, every other trains you have to pay, why not this one.

Add another coach, great, more revenue.

Single menu, no problems there. All other trains do it that way.

Pass rider fee, not real sure what this one is.


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## Guest

fairviewroad said:


> Question about item 4b in the memo: What is a "table car"? [i've never ridden the AT, so I don't know if that's already a "thing" there]


Its basically a dining car, but the kitchen isn't in operation. It only serves to provide additional seating (tables) to the adjacent dining car.


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## haolerider

I think we will find out that this is not a real big deal to most of the passengers. As far as the wine situation, on most trips there were certain passengers who drank more than their share and others who just wanted to get their meal and go to sleep to get ready for their next day of driving. Rail fans will complain and call for Boardman's head, but if revenue increases and any cost reduction is achieved, it will be a success. Most people who say they will never ride again usually don't follow through with their threats.


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## The Journalist

Disclaimer: I've never ridden the Auto Train and am probably not the target market. That said, I'm not seeing a single bad idea in this list. If the train's full already and consist length is capped out, adding a coach car at the expense of a lounge makes sense. And I don't see how eliminating china is even remotely an issue-how are people that concerned with what their plate looks like?-though it's somewhat at odds with Amtrak calling themselves "green" if they're going to plastic instead. I wonder if "pass riders" means Railpass users? Are those even good on the Auto Train?


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## the_traveler

I have never taken AT but if these cuts are true, I'm even less inclined to take AT at all!

I agree that just to have a second lounge to get out of the room is good. I go to the lounge car not just for the scenery, but also for a CHANGE OF scenery - and also to meet and talk with my fellow passengers. But if I had to wait for an available seat, I'd be much less inclined to even try.

Also, if they're cutting a lounge from each train, that means there will be 2 (or is it 3) extra lounge cars available. What's going to happen to them? :huh: I know many routes that could use extra lounge cars!!!


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## pennyk

My aunt and uncle are typical AT riders. They are snow birds from Long Island and spend winters in the Boynton Beach condo. Although they can afford to ride in a sleeper, the opt for coach. They do not drink, so my guess is that they will not miss anything. They are returning north at the end of March. I will be curious to see if they even notice anything different.


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## Paulus

Ditto on nothing bad here. Personally I've always thought that wine and cheese tastings were sufficiently low cost as to not be worth caring about, but I'm not going to shed any tears over their removal. The removal of free wine at meals is nothing but good news and I doubt that there's sufficient demand for a special lounge just to sell stuff to sleeper passengers, so that's the replacement of a non-revenue car with a revenue one (all for the good). I am wondering what the pass things are though.


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## haolerider

The Journalist said:


> Disclaimer: I've never ridden the Auto Train and am probably not the target market. That said, I'm not seeing a single bad idea in this list. If the train's full already and consist length is capped out, adding a coach car at the expense of a lounge makes sense. And I don't see how eliminating china is even remotely an issue-how are people that concerned with what their plate looks like?-though it's somewhat at odds with Amtrak calling themselves "green" if they're going to plastic instead. I wonder if "pass riders" means Railpass users? Are those even good on the Auto Train?


I believe the pass riders they are referring to are people who are freight rail employees/retirees and Amtrak employees.


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## OlympianHiawatha

Wait until the folks who have to walk through 9 cars to get to the Lounge start grousing.


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## The Journalist

Another thought regarding the lounges: Between the simplified menu, the "staggered seating," and the hopefully upcoming phaseout of cumbersome paper-based inventory management, there's good potential for getting everybody fed taking less time. This means the table car can be used as an overflow lounge when it's not being diner seating-which is conveniently when there'll be the most people wanting a lounge. Perhaps not ideal, but better than nothing.

Edit: Okay, I reread the proposal and the table is going to be between the diners, so maybe this won't work. But sleeper passengers have to walk through the diner to get to the lounge on most LDs currently anyway, so maybe it'll at least be a sleeper lounge during non-food hours?


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## tonys96

There is no longer any 'first class' on Amtrak. A lot of the romance of the rails is dwindling away, along with it the reason to ride LD trains.

Sad, very sad.


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## I always rode the Southern

jimhudson said:


> If this is True, Wait till Mica and the other Florida and NE Politicians start hearing from the Regulars that have made the Auto Train such a success! Look for I-85 and 95 to have more Traffic heading to/from Florida and Virginia soon as well as an increase in Business for the Silver Trains and Rental Cars! Even Airlines will probably gain some business if this poorly thought out Bean Counting is implemented! Well, it works for the Airlines seems to be the idea! hboy:
> 
> It looks like Boardman and his Team have given in to the Anti-Rail Crazies in Congress and have started "Nickel and Dimeing" the LD Trains!  As henry says, they are "cutting off their nose to spite their face!" By any other name this is just another "Standardization" Scheme (Cross Country Cafes/Simplified Dinning etc) and another example of "if it works, change it!"
> 
> Along with "three day a week" Trains how did those plans work out???


Unfortunately this may be us. Nope, won't drive 95, but take the silvers and rent a car.

The loss of wine and cheese tasting will not bother me, though it does help pass the time since you board at 2:30, but don't leave until 4, but I'm sure it will a lot of others. And you really appreciate it when you get stuck with late dinner seating.

When you are paying over $1,000 for an overnight in coach, possibly $1500+ in a bedroom(and it has happened)you expect some level of customer service and a decent dinner( If you take it often you grow to hate "breakfast", but tolerate it).

Those who don't see any problem with just one lounge don't understand how crowded this train can be. We have often ridden with over 500 passengers. And since roomettes on the superliners have less leg room than the viewliners(or so it seems to us) if you cant afford/or score a bedroom, you tend to spend some quality time in the lounge. It is crowded now; what happens when you take one away and add more passengers?

And if you don't get to the station early enough, you will get 9 pm dinner, add some more passengers and you may eat at midnight.

I have ridden this train a long time ago, when they had dining light, and few amenities. I didn't ride again for 10 years or more, cause it wasn't worth it.

We'll be on it northbound April 16th, we'll see how it goes.


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## FormerOBS

Yes, pass riders are Amtrak employees and retirees who have pass privileges, much the same as airline employees have pass privileges. The proposal is to initiate some charge for some of the services that have heretofore been provided at no charge. I have not seen a thorough explanations of the ramifications.

For the sake of clarity and consistency, let's define a car as a railroad car, and we'll define automobiles, SUV's, vans, trucks, motorcycles, etc. as autos.

The train has carried 16 passenger cars, which is the summertime limit to the capacity of the H.E.P. system (A/C uses a lot of power). The extra coach is now running, for a total of 17 passenger cars. With 2 P40's on the head end, the train can haul about 32 to 34 auto carriers under F.R.A. regulations that limit the train's length. Each coach can carry about 70 passengers (I forget the exact number). Each deluxe sleeper (2 cars) can carry 32 passengers and each standard sleeper (4 cars) can carry 42 passengers. Very often, passengers will intentionally exceed the room's stated capacity. With 5 coaches on the train, this means a maximum capacity of about 582 passengers, as opposed to the previous capacity of 512 with 4 coaches. The fifth coach is already on the train, and passenger counts have been well above 500, frequently approaching 600.

Since there are 60 usable seats in the upper level of each diner, this means only about 540 usable seats will be available for three dinner seatings. Consequently, a fourth seating will often be necessary, and has been necessary on some occasions in the past few weeks. Seatings generally have taken about 2 hours from the beginning of one until the beginning of the next. The goal is to cut this time, which many passengers may find objectionable.

Carrying passengers without cars would involve some problems to be solved, including their meals. It has been considered and may be under consideration now.

Each auto carrier can hold up to 10 autos. That means somewhere between 320 and 340 autos. Since the usual ratio of passengers to autos is about 2:1, the available auto carriers should be adequate.


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## tonys96

In favor of the 'pass rider' fee here. If everyone who pays gets cut, those riding free should get some of the pain too. This one is a good move.


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## afigg

FormerOBS said:


> The train has carried 16 passenger cars, which is the summertime limit to the capacity of the H.E.P. system (A/C uses a lot of power). The extra coach is now running, for a total of 17 passenger cars. With 2 P40's on the head end, the train can haul about 32 to 34 auto carriers under F.R.A. regulations that limit the train's length. Each coach can carry about 70 passengers (I forget the exact number). Each deluxe sleeper (2 cars) can carry 32 passengers and each standard sleeper (4 cars) can carry 42 passengers. Very often, passengers will intentionally exceed the room's stated capacity. With 5 coaches on the train, this means a maximum capacity of about 582 passengers, as opposed to the previous capacity of 512 with 4 coaches. The fifth coach is already on the train, and passenger counts have been well above 500, frequently approaching 600.


Thanks for the detailed breakdown. If the AT is currently running with the 6th coach car, then there will no increase in capacity for April, unless April is warm enough that they have to cut back to 16 cars total. Checked Amsnag for the month of April for the northbound SFA to LOR: AT is totally sold out April 1, 19, 26; no roomettes available at ALL for the entire month. If the 6th coach car was not in the consist plan for the spring travel peak, but will now be after March 14 with the swap out of the lounge car, we should see coach seats open up for sale.
I'm of the opinion that these changes won't noticeably hurt AT sleeper sales. full disclosure, I have never taken the AT, but I'm not that picky about amenities. I would take the AT so I could take my car to Florida w/o putting 800 miles on it and save on a long boring drive. Not because the dinner is served on china, or there is a second lounge car or free wine.

If the changes that affect the passengers do take effect on March 14, we will see in the monthly reports by this summer whether passenger numbers are up or down. Because people have already brought their tickets for March, April and made their plans, we will have to wait for the June, July, August numbers to see if there is any visible erosion in sleeper sales. And even then, lot of people have already booked for the summer months. So it may take until fall before there could be evidence whether these changes hurt or not.


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## JoeRids

I think this is a bad idea; it's these little extras that people remember. I work as an insurance adjuster, and I see some body shops giving customers "freebies" like cookies and gift bags at the end of their repairs; it's this kind of unexpected, "chotchke" (sp?) stuff that leaves a lasting impression in people's mind, along with of course friendly service and quality. Auto Train fare is not insubstantial whether in coach or sleeper (though the sleeper upgrade is less than on other Amtrak services), so people should expect something more than bare bones. In fact, most Amtrak sleeper fares fit under the "deluxe" category, and the accompanying extras should be commensurate with this. I remember the NY-Chicago slumbercoach fare in 1995 used to be $46 over coach; peanuts, really, even 20 years ago. With prices like this, no one complained that no extras were added in. On the other side of the coin, just to dream I priced out a Calgary-Vancouver Rocky Mountaineer train in "Goldleaf" class; $4500 for two people for a two day train ride! At these prices I would expect almost a private car! Bottom line is, Amtrak needs to find that happy medium; good, fresh cooked food and a few little extras should make just about everyone happy without breaking the bank.


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## Walt

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Wait until the folks who have to walk through 9 cars to get to the Lounge start grousing.


Wait until the lounge is full with coach passengers, camping out for the entire trip, and there is never even a single open seat for a Sleeper passenger.


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## ScottRu

I'm with "Engineer." We've taken the AT for years. Initially it was a wonderfully civilized, romantic way to travel. Even the boring scenery (which we came to know quite well!) was all right because the staff was extremely helpful and cordial, the wine & cheese was a nice touch and an opportunity to meet our fellow travelers, the dining car experiences were routinely an enjoyable part of the trip. The linen table clothes and china just added to the experience.

Slowly the cost began to escalate and the service began to decline. (Also the 8 hour trip from Lorton back to Boston at the end of our time in Florida seemed to get longer and longer.)

So this year we've taken the Silver Meteor and rented a car (heading back on Saturday). We were thinking of next year returning to the AT until i read of these changes. Now I'm ready to get my Silvers reservations for next year.


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## Shortline

the_traveler said:


> Also, if they're cutting a lounge from each train, that means there will be 2 (or is it 3) extra lounge cars available. What's going to happen to them? :huh: I know many routes that could use extra lounge cars!!!


PPC replacements?


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## JoeRids

Just to piggyback off my last post, what I REALLY think Amtrak should do is to offer sleepers at a greatly reduced price as a “barebones” service, with no meals or other services included. You can then make the diner a “pay as you go” offering meals at lower prices throughout the day. Attendants would be on hand only to make up beds and assist mobility impaired passengers, which in reality is all most do now anyway. This would appeal to a broader range of people who don’t want or expect first class service (which isn’t really first class anyway); there is a world of travelers out there who can’t pony up the sleeper fare, but wouldn’t travel overnight in coach; these people generally fly or drive. Let’s face it; Amtrak’s first class is not first class, and it’s time to come to grips with it. That the carrier even offers this flies in the face of Amtrak providing a necessary transportation. And finally, and I think this will prove unpopular to many reading this, I think AGR points usage needs to be much more restrictive, especially for sleepers. Offer only so many rooms per train, more or less depending on the season. Let’s face it, it’s more beneficial to have revenue passengers in rooms than people travelling on points; how many of these points are generated by Amtrak travel vs. the AGR credit card?

Granted, this is a very broad outline, but in general it is how I see the successful future of overnight rail travel in the US. Plus from an enthusiast standpoint wouldn’t you rather take more trips at a lower cost than more expensive trips in “first class?”


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## FormerOBS

afigg, there is a bit of a false impression implicit (or explicit) in your observations. I need to clarify. The train has used 4 coaches up to now. The additional coach has already been added, for a total of 5. This means 17 cars, total. The maximum capacity of the electrical lines for head end Hotel Electric Power (HEP) in the summer is 16 cars because of the heavy demands for A/C. When one lounge is removed from the consist in mid-March, this will bring the consist down to the practical summertime maximum of 16 cars. There is no 6th coach. Sorry if I stated things in a confusing way. My answer was a bit convoluted.

I know many people don't think of Amtrak's service as first class. In part, that depends on the people delivering the service and Auto Train's people are among the very best. It should be remembered that passengers in need of special service due to physical disabilities are very numerous on AT because the clientele is primarily retirees.


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## JoeRids

FormerOBS said:


> I know many people don't think of Amtrak's service as first class. In part, that depends on the people delivering the service and Auto Train's people are among the very best. It should be remembered that passengers in need of special service due to physical disabilities are very numerous on AT because the clientele is primarily retirees.


Just to clarify, at Amtrak's current pricing levels a premium service should be expected and provided; maybe Auto Train should retain this as it is the only Amtrak LH service that is profitable.


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## Anderson

The Auto Train's functional capacity is presently about 500/train, at least before these adjustments. That comes to 1000/day or 365,000/year, assuming no cancellations. In FY13, the Auto Train carried 265,274 passengers, or about 72.7% of that amount. When you factor in the fact that traffic can get rather "asymmetrical" at peak season (i.e. more traffic going one way than the other due to snowbird migration), getting close to 75% is pretty dang good.

Likewise, YTD in FY14, there were 92 days in Oct-Dec, putting the theoretical cap at 92k riders. In that time, the Auto Train carried 63,946 riders, or 69.5% of capacity. Breaking that down further, in:
October: 19,615 of 31,000 (63.3%)

November: 20,389 of 30,000 (68.0%)
December: 23,942 of 31,000 (77.2%)

Considering that October is one of the worst months for LD trains (behind January and February as a rule), and that it's one of those "asymmetrical seasons", I think the Auto Train is doing about as well as can be hoped for in terms of load factors. As a result, I really can't blame Amtrak for wanting to drop one of the lounge cars. I _would_ argue that they should at least try to set up a coach-lounge for the coach passengers due to the length of the walk (even at the cost of a dozen seats), but the train sells out often enough (and gets into high bucket range for coach often enough) that I can't blame Amtrak's decision-making.

Amtrak has desperately been looking for solutions for the Auto Train's capacity limits, including exploring setting up a power car to allow them to go over 18 passenger cars. However, until they can work out a solution on that front, this is the best they can do. It is far from great, but under the circumstances I kind of can't blame Amtrak.


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## Green Maned Lion

They could quite easily solve the problem by running the train with a third engine running in-between the last passenger car and the first auto carrier, with it providing HEP for half the cars, and the second unit providing HEP for the other half. But this isn't really about capacity, its about downgrading costs.


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## afigg

FormerOBS said:


> afigg, there is a bit of a false impression implicit (or explicit) in your observations. I need to clarify. The train has used 4 coaches up to now. The additional coach has already been added, for a total of 5. This means 17 cars, total. The maximum capacity of the electrical lines for head end Hotel Electric Power (HEP) in the summer is 16 cars because of the heavy demands for A/C. When one lounge is removed from the consist in mid-March, this will bring the consist down to the practical summertime maximum of 16 cars. There is no 6th coach. Sorry if I stated things in a confusing way. My answer was a bit convoluted.


Ok, so it is 5 coach cars that are already included in the available seat sales after mid-March. I should have added up the number of cars myself before posting.


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## battalion51

Green Maned Lion said:


> They could quite easily solve the problem by running the train with a third engine running in-between the last passenger car and the first auto carrier, with it providing HEP for half the cars, and the second unit providing HEP for the other half. But this isn't really about capacity, its about downgrading costs.


Its not quite that simple. They'd either have to have a power car without traction motors or MU the entire train. You can't run an engine in the middle of the train without the Engineer having control of the engine brakes on that unit. DPU technology could be deployed for this, especially since Auto Train uses a captive fleet. However, with the power shortages the entire system is facing, allocating an additional two units to the AT pool won't happen anytime soon.


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## tonys96

The reasoning used here for the cuts on other LD trains was that it would save jobs and/or routes. The amount that would be collected annually from 'pass rider fees' would be substantially more than the amount saved by cutting the wine and cheese from the other routes. (W & C costs $428k-source: OIG report) the 'pass rider fee' would bring in $586k according to this thread).

Wouldn't this save more jobs/routes?


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## OlympianHiawatha

Since I have never been on _*Auto Train *_can someone give a description to what the dedicated Lounge Cars are like. Thanks!


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## henryj

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Sounds like it is time to get rid of Boardman and all the other bloated staff and bring in someone who knows how to run a customer oriented business and provide CUSTOMER SERVICE.


I have always said Amtrak has bloated overhead. Finally someone agrees with me.


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## Walt

JoeRids said:


> Just to piggyback off my last post, what I REALLY think Amtrak should do is to offer sleepers at a greatly reduced price as a “barebones” service, with no meals or other services included. You can then make the diner a “pay as you go” offering meals at lower prices throughout the day. Attendants would be on hand only to make up beds and assist mobility impaired passengers, which in reality is all most do now anyway.


I think that is exactly where Amtrak is heading, except it will be with no change in Sleeper fares, or possibly even higher fares.

Same high Sleeper fare and you will have to pay full menu price for all your meals.


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## Green Maned Lion

battalion51 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> They could quite easily solve the problem by running the train with a third engine running in-between the last passenger car and the first auto carrier, with it providing HEP for half the cars, and the second unit providing HEP for the other half. But this isn't really about capacity, its about downgrading costs.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not quite that simple. They'd either have to have a power car without traction motors or MU the entire train. You can't run an engine in the middle of the train without the Engineer having control of the engine brakes on that unit. DPU technology could be deployed for this, especially since Auto Train uses a captive fleet. However, with the power shortages the entire system is facing, allocating an additional two units to the AT pool won't happen anytime soon.
Click to expand...

MUing a dedicated fleet is not brain surgery.


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## Blackwolf

Green Maned Lion said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> They could quite easily solve the problem by running the train with a third engine running in-between the last passenger car and the first auto carrier, with it providing HEP for half the cars, and the second unit providing HEP for the other half. But this isn't really about capacity, its about downgrading costs.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not quite that simple. They'd either have to have a power car without traction motors or MU the entire train. You can't run an engine in the middle of the train without the Engineer having control of the engine brakes on that unit. DPU technology could be deployed for this, especially since Auto Train uses a captive fleet. However, with the power shortages the entire system is facing, allocating an additional two units to the AT pool won't happen anytime soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> MUing a dedicated fleet is not brain surgery.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a job for one of the mothballed F40's slated for a Cabbage role. Replace the original Prime Mover with a GenSet for the purpose of providing HEP. You could even go as far as completely removing the cab if it made any different. No engine brakes or traction motors to worry about; it's just a "power car" at that point.

Of course, I know it would never be that simple. They'd spend millions having to draw up engineering plans, make cost analysis reports, perform the conversions, then have employees complain about them, go back to engineering, etc.


----------



## Ryan

henryj said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like it is time to get rid of Boardman and all the other bloated staff and bring in someone who knows how to run a customer oriented business and provide CUSTOMER SERVICE.
> 
> 
> 
> I have always said Amtrak has bloated overhead. Finally someone agrees with me.
Click to expand...

Congrats.

You've still provided zero justification for that opinion.


----------



## FormerOBS

Since mechanical/electrical issues are outside my area of expertise, I won't get into the HEP discussion.

Olympian Hi ---

When AT was converted to Superliners in the mid 1990's, there were not enough Sightseer Lounge cars available; and if there had been, they would not have been ideal for AT's purposes. Two cars were needed for each consist, plus one spare. Five old Superliner diners were converted to lounges in the AT's Sanford shop. These diners were essentially stripped. Since the dominant clientele was and is retirees, the lounge attendant's service counter was placed upstairs, in the middle of the car, next to the stairway. Once a passenger boards the train and goes upstairs, there is no need to return to the lower level until detraining next morning. One of the two food service elevators ("dumb waiters") was retained. The "B" end upstairs was fitted with lounge seats and tables. The "A" end upstairs was fitted with ten dining car tables and bench seats so that these tables could be available for overflow dinner and breakfast service. Obviously, the "A" end runs adjacent to the diner in both coach and sleeper sections. The new consist arrangement will make this a moot point since the one lounge will not have any spare room for dining car patrons, and new staffing levels will eliminate the one extra waiter who would have worked this section. Downstairs is a single restroom and two additional lounge areas flanking the door/stairway area. Until last summer, AT was the last train to allow onboard smoking. One of these lower level lounge areas was separated from the rest of the car by a partition and a door, and served as the ONLY designated smoking area. Smoke-eaters were installed there. The door has since been removed, but the windowed partition is still there. Since these are converted diners, there are no ceiling windows as you would find in a Sightseer lounge. Not many people miss the extra windows since the scenery is not spectacular and most of the route is covered in darkness anyway, especially in the winter.

From the outside, the upper level of these cars looks just like that of a Superliner diner. Unlike a diner, the lower level has windows for the lower level lounge areas.

When AT derailed at speed near Crescent City, FL about 13 years ago due to faulty track, one of the AT lounges was destroyed. To replace it, one Sightseer lounge was assigned as the extra lounge car to allow cars to be rotated in and out of the shop. This car received dining car tables on the "B" end upstairs, and still serves as the extra car.

This Sightseer car could probably be re-modified and return to service on some other Superliner train. As for the four remaining AT special lounges, two will be in service at all times. At least one will be needed as an extra. One would hope that the fourth car would be retained to guarantee that at least one extra car is available at all times in case of an unexpected car shortage.

I hope that answers it


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

FormerOBS said:


> Since mechanical/electrical issues are outside my area of expertise, I won't get into the HEP discussion.
> 
> Olympian Hi ---
> 
> When AT was converted to Superliners in the mid 1990's, there were not enough Sightseer Lounge cars available; and if there had been, they would not have been ideal for AT's purposes. Two cars were needed for each consist, plus one spare. Five old Superliner diners were converted to lounges in the AT's Sanford shop. These diners were essentially stripped. Since the dominant clientele was and is retirees, the lounge attendant's service counter was placed upstairs, in the middle of the car, next to the stairway. Once a passenger boards the train and goes upstairs, there is no need to return to the lower level until detraining next morning. One of the two food service elevators ("dumb waiters") was retained. The "B" end upstairs was fitted with lounge seats and tables. The "A" end upstairs was fitted with ten dining car tables and bench seats so that these tables could be available for overflow dinner and breakfast service. Obviously, the "A" end runs adjacent to the diner in both coach and sleeper sections. The new consist arrangement will make this a moot point since the one lounge will not have any spare room for dining car patrons, and new staffing levels will eliminate the one extra waiter who would have worked this section. Downstairs is a single restroom and two additional lounge areas flanking the door/stairway area. Until last summer, AT was the last train to allow onboard smoking. One of these lower level lounge areas was separated from the rest of the car by a partition and a door, and served as the ONLY designated smoking area. Smoke-eaters were installed there. The door has since been removed, but the windowed partition is still there. Since these are converted diners, there are no ceiling windows as you would find in a Sightseer lounge. Not many people miss the extra windows since the scenery is not spectacular and most of the route is covered in darkness anyway, especially in the winter.
> 
> From the outside, the upper level of these cars looks just like that of a Superliner diner. Unlike a diner, the lower level has windows for the lower level lounge areas.
> 
> When AT derailed at speed near Crescent City, FL about 13 years ago due to faulty track, one of the AT lounges was destroyed. To replace it, one Sightseer lounge was assigned as the extra lounge car to allow cars to be rotated in and out of the shop. This car received dining car tables on the "B" end upstairs, and still serves as the extra car.
> 
> This Sightseer car could probably be re-modified and return to service on some other Superliner train. As for the four remaining AT special lounges, two will be in service at all times. At least one will be needed as an extra. One would hope that the fourth car would be retained to guarantee that at least one extra car is available at all times in case of an unexpected car shortage.
> 
> I hope that answers it


Thanks! I knew they were converted from Superliner 1 Diners but was curious how the seating was configured.


----------



## Dovecote

Former OBS---Thanks for the history lesson on the AT lounge cars. It was quite informative.


----------



## trainviews

First I have to say that I've never taken the auto train and probably never will (no car and not living in the US...). I'm also not an "all trains have to make a profit" guy and am happy with subsidies when needed.

But - if you have a very long train that runs close to 75 percent full, and it still doesn't make money - then you're doing something wrong! And I'm not talking about avoidable costs or before overhead here. If you count that the AT is above water, but a train running this well - it has to make enough money that it also pays it's share of general company expenses. I think that is a political reality as well as common sense. Subsidies has to be spent on services that needs them.

There's basically only two ways of doing this - save on costs or raise prices. Both of them have a limit before you start to turn so many customers away that your price hike/service cut will work in reverse.

Now, if you had to start a new auto train from scratch which service level would you go for? Why will people buy tickets for the train and at what price? Most of the LD's have some element of travel experience as an important draw for at least a part of the passengers. The Auto Train not so much. It is primarily a way to transport yourself and your car from the Northeast to Florida and back in a relatively comfortable way.

So I would say the basics of the service is: Reasonably comfortable seats and rooms, cleanliness, decent food which doesn't have to be high cuisine, but has to be over micronuke level and staff which sees to this is delivered in a hospitable manner, actually cares if something is lacking and are able to help passengers with special needs.

Beyond that I think you have to be careful with your costs. People like amenities, but it's not why they are buying their tickets. A small wellplaced amount of them might make them come back a little more often.

As for the concrete cuts: The extra coach instead of a lounge car is regrettable if one lounge lacks capacity - but given the constraints on the length of the train it's probably a tradeoff worth making. Not selling a car load of tickets leave an awful lot of money on the table. As for the rest - well china is nice, but it really matters more what's on the plate. Charging for wine is a good idea (charging for food probably woudn't be but that is another discussion) and the tasting is not what makes people take the train.

But all this is my gut feeling. I sincerely hope Amtrak is basing these service changes on solid market reseach and not just guessing. And if this can help push the AT towards being truly profitable it's worth it.


----------



## me_little_me

FormerOBS said:


> I know many people don't think of Amtrak's service as first class. In part, that depends on the people delivering the service and Auto Train's people are among the very best. It should be remembered that passengers in need of special service due to physical disabilities are very numerous on AT because the clientele is primarily retirees.


Amtrak's service is NOT first Class. Some individuals on Amtrak provide excellent service but Amtrak does not. Amtrak is like a nice restaurant where you go in one day and have a fabulous waitress and the next time some don't-care waiter is serving you. A good restaurant would NEVER allow that to happen. Similarly, Amtrak should not allow it. Since they do, they are NOT providing first class service unlike VIA which apparently from what people say does.

The blame falls squarely on management. To paraphrase an old Ford ad "Quality should be Job 1". It is not even Job 10.


----------



## Carolyn Jane

Slightly off topic, or maybe not...I always count the cars as the train goes through, and last night I counted 17 superliners, instead of the usual 16. Thought maybe I had miscounted, but again tonight, there were 17 cars (plus 32 cxar carriers). With two engines, that makes 51 units. I though AT was only supposed to have 50 units, or do those units not include the engines? CJ


----------



## CREW-DORM#2524

Lounges 33100 and 33101 were both wrecked in Crescent City but both returned to service.


----------



## andersone

I found the NTSB report on the Crescent City crash very interesting.

"The 3rd through 23rd cars derailed during the accident. The first 16 cars in the train behind the locomotive units were Amtrak Superliner passenger cars; these were followed by 24 autorack cars. After the derailment, the locomotive units and first two passenger cars remained on the rails. The next 14 passenger cars and the 7 succeeding autorack cars derailed. The 7 derailed autorack cars remained generally in-line. The remaining 17 autorack cars stayed on the rails. (See figure 5 and table 2 for the post-accident disposition of the 2 locomotive units and the first 23 cars of the train.)
The NTSB went nuts over the passenger accountability system - i wonder what the difference is almost fifteen years later?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Passenger accountability system been a problem for a bit, the new E-Ticket help a lot, but since you can exit the train at any station with out telling anyone, well the system is never fool prove.


----------



## Allypet

Last year I took the auto train for 6 trips last year (3 round trips), all in sleepers, and I have another trip booked for July already. I am very disappointed over the loss of the lounge car. I travel with my family, and usually have two rooms to accommodate everyone. The only place we can all get together is in the lounge car. At most times the sleeper lounge car is full, and with the coach passengers using it also I am afraid that the remaining lounge car will be crowded beyond belief.

I enjoy the wine and cheese, but if they feel the need to get rid of it, then so be it. I'm not sure how the staggered seating will work out. But I do enjoy a civilized meal.

However, the service I received last year ran from so-so to downright terrible. Since I paid for it already, I will see how my next trip works out. If I can't sit my family together for some conversation time in the lounge car, and with the constant crappy and nasty service I received lately, this will be the straw that breaks the camels back, and this will be my last AT trip.


----------



## George Harris

battalion51 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> They could quite easily solve the problem by running the train with a third engine running in-between the last passenger car and the first auto carrier, with it providing HEP for half the cars, and the second unit providing HEP for the other half. But this isn't really about capacity, its about downgrading costs.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not quite that simple. They'd either have to have a power car without traction motors or MU the entire train. You can't run an engine in the middle of the train without the Engineer having control of the engine brakes on that unit. DPU technology could be deployed for this, especially since Auto Train uses a captive fleet. However, with the power shortages the entire system is facing, allocating an additional two units to the AT pool won't happen anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Don't know what is happening in the east, but commonly see on both UP and BNSF freights running with power on both ends, and that on the rear end is working. I think one of the main reasons is to reduce set up and release time for the brakes, although reduced coupler forces may be part of it, as well. how this is being managed, I don't know, but as certain it is not by MU cables. I know in the early 60's Southern tried running trains with distributed power, that is what they called it, with the remote units being radio controlled. They had a northbound train frequency and a southbound train frequency. I know they had some problems, such as losing communication between power sets in tunnels. And, for Chattanooga to Ooltewah, to name one place, you could have trains both designated as going in the same direction meeting each other. (Chattanooga to Atlanta meeting Knoxville to Birmingham/New Orleans or Memphis.) Surely in the 50 years since controlling remote units should be better managed.

Saying that to say that it should be possible to place a unit between the passenger cars and the auto carriers without having to MU the train. If they have insufficient units available, perhaps Amtrak should consider leasing a couple of units from CSX. After all, the Auto Train is limited to 70 mph, which is within the capability of the freight units.


----------



## neroden

...



> Amtrak Southeast Deputy General Manager Tom Kirk and Auto Train route director Kathy Brewer have announced service cuts and changes on Auto Train as detailed:
> 
> 1. Remove First Class Lounge, all pax to use one Lounge Car.
> 
> a. Eliminate LSA, $550,000 labor cost reduction
> 
> b. Eliminate complimentary wine and cheese
> 
> c. Removing Lounge to add 5th coach for revenue passengers
> 
> d. Target date - 3/14


Cost in lost patronage due to complaints about overcrowded lounge: roughly $1,000,000 / year



> 2. Eliminate complimentary wine in diner
> 
> a. Sleeper and Coach diner @ $275,000 ($221,500 and $54,000
> 
> respectively)
> 
> b. Target date - 3/14
> 
> c. Also an OIG report item (named in Inspector General report on
> 
> food and beverage costs -GP)


(I don't have a problem with this)



> 3. Add 5th Coach
> 
> a. Increase revenue $1,500,000
> 
> b. Target date - 3/14
> 
> 4. Realign consist to have food service cars together and centered in
> 
> train
> 
> a. Sleeper diner
> 
> b. Table car
> 
> c. Coach diner
> 
> d. Coach Lounge
> 
> e. Start staggered seating in Sleeper Diner


This looks like it will work tolerably well; same number of dining seats.



> 5. Move to single menu for all diners
> 
> a. Target date - May menu change
> 
> b. Incremental savings on F&B (TBA i.e.: linen elimination cost
> 
> savings)
> 
> c. Eliminate Sleeper Diner Food Specialist (no china) $550,000 labor
> 
> savings


Increased costs from disposable dishes: $550,000

Reduced revenue from disgusted customers: $500,000



> d. Initiate at room beverage service (revenue) for sleeper
> 
> passengers in lieu wine
> 
> e. Initiate alcohol sales promotion in diner
> 
> 6. Pass rider fee initiative
> 
> a. Revenue
> 
> i. Average 8050 annual pass riders @ $30 fee = $214,000 (use
> 
> as F&B transfer)
> 
> ii. Average 4600 vehicles @ $75 fee = $345,000
> 
> iii. Total revenue generated = $586,000
> 
> b. Also an OIG report item
> 
> c. Need to work with Marketing to implement


Not complaining about this!



> Total cost savings initiative $1,564,000 Total P&L impact $3,650,000 (F&B P&L impact $1,777,000)


Lost revenue and increased costs: roughly $2,050,000. Total P&L impact $1,600,000, from adding a coach and charging passholders.
These are simply estimates, but they're going to be order-of-magnitude correct.

The people at Amtrak don't know how to calculate costs or income. The removal of the lounge is stupid and the removal of china from the diner is a false savings.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> Looks to me that the reason for replacing the second lounge car with a coach car is to increase capacity for more revenue sales.


Which is stupid. I'm all for adding a coach, but they're going to need even more lounge cars if they add a coach. Add a coach and keep the lounge car.
If you have one lounge car for that many people, people will just get mad at you. And they'll start moving into the diner to use it as lounge space, whether that's permitted or not. I know if the lounge was consistently overfilled, I would start hogging diner time, slowing the entire food service operation down. I can easily spend 2-3 hours eating a leisurely meal.

Complete morons in the Amtrak administration don't understand the basics of designing amenities on trains. It involves counting the number of passengers, folks!

I realize that the Auto Train has some sort of idiotic limit on how many cars long it is allowed to be. Well, guys, if you want to add more coaches, figure out how to overcome that limit. You need a sensible ratio of lounge space to coach space, and not doing so is going to give you endless trouble.

Idiots.


----------



## neroden

trainviews said:


> First I have to say that I've never taken the auto train and probably never will (no car and not living in the US...). I'm also not an "all trains have to make a profit" guy and am happy with subsidies when needed.
> 
> But - if you have a very long train that runs close to 75 percent full, and it still doesn't make money - then you're doing something wrong! And I'm not talking about avoidable costs or before overhead here. If you count that the AT is above water, but a train running this well - it has to make enough money that it also pays it's share of general company expenses. I think that is a political reality as well as common sense. Subsidies has to be spent on services that needs them.
> 
> There's basically only two ways of doing this - save on costs or raise prices.


This is actually wrong. In railroading, vast quantities of the expenses are fixed costs, and very little of the expenses are variable costs. Economies of scale. This means that the *third*, and *correct*, way of doing this is to spread out the fixed costs over an even larger number of variable costs.
So yes, add a coach to the train, and more autoracks. But for goodness sake don't remove the second lounge car. If Amtrak doesn't want to pay for the lounge attendant.... don't. Make it an unattended lounge; the demand is for lounge space, not for additional cafe service.

Think about this: adding an extra coach on Auto Train is also going to add over 50 additional automobiles. This means more autoracks. This means Amtrak has clearly figured out how to get CSX to eliminate whatever limitation there was on the length of the train. Therefore that isn't a problem which would "require" the removal of the lounge.

Perhaps the Head End Power supply is too low to supply the current consist and another lounge. In this case Amtrak has to bite the bullet and add a locomotive, unfortunately. (Which still doesn't add staff costs, so it's still spreading fixed costs out.)


----------



## neroden

FormerOBS said:


> Seatings generally have taken about 2 hours from the beginning of one until the beginning of the next. The goal is to cut this time, which many passengers may find objectionable.


You can cut dining seating time in two ways1) Provide attractive lounge space (so that people leave their seats faster)

(2) Provide more staffing in the dining car (so that people get served faster)

Amtrak is currently proposing the exact opposite. The result will be that seatings will take even longer. Does the management have a clue? Or should the Auto Train director be fired immediately? I think the latter.

(Edit: I guess there's a third way: eliminate dessert.)


----------



## printman2000

neroden said:


> Perhaps the Head End Power supply is too low to supply the current consist and another lounge. In this case Amtrak has to bite the bullet and add a locomotive, unfortunately. (Which still doesn't add staff costs, so it's still spreading fixed costs out.)


I am fairly certain the HEP comes from only one locomotive at a time so adding another locomotive will not produce more HEP.


----------



## neroden

This sounds like a problem for an electrical engineer.

I'm not sure where the HEP limitation is coming from. If it's coming from the distribution wiring, then you'd need distributed power. If it's coming from the locomotive's generation ability, then dedicate one locomotive entirely to HEP generation (disconnect it from the wheels) and you should be able to generate a hell of a lot.


----------



## rrdude

neroden said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Total cost savings initiative $1,564,000 Total P&L impact $3,650,000 (F&B P&L impact $1,777,000)
> 
> 
> 
> Lost revenue and increased costs: roughly $2,050,000. Total P&L impact $1,600,000, from adding a coach and charging passholders.
> These are simply estimates, but they're going to be order-of-magnitude correct.
> 
> The people at Amtrak don't know how to calculate costs or income. The removal of the lounge is stupid and the *removal of china from the diner is a false savings.*
Click to expand...

And really, tell me this, how on earth does this fit into Amtrak's so-called policy / goal of touting itself as "GREEN"?

The use of plastic, instead of re-washing china, (over and over, and over) not only causes more plastic to be produced in the first place, it then cause more plastic TRASH. I'm sure I would still probably complain if Amtrak moved to a biodegradable dishware, plates, bowl, etc., but at LEAST it would be better for the environment.

As it is, not-so-much,


----------



## Allypet

So let me get this straight. This is what the Auto Train looks like now:

Current AUTO TRAIN — 2 sets

------|---- —— Superliner Dorm
5245|5345 —— Superliner Sleeper
5243|5343 —— Superliner Sleeper
5241|5341 —— Superliner Sleeper Deluxe
-------|---- —— Superliner Auto Train Lounge
-------|---- —— Superliner Diner
5240|5340 —— Superliner Sleeper Deluxe
5242|5342 —— Superliner Sleeper
5244|5344 —— Superliner Sleeper
5210|5310 —— Superliner Coach
5211|5311 —— Superliner Coach
5212|5312 —— Superliner Coach
5213|5313 —— Superliner Coach
------|---- —— Superliner Auto Train Lounge
------|---- —— Superliner Diner
------|---- —— Superliner Diner (as table car)

Now they want to do this:

proposed AUTO TRAIN — 2 sets

------|---- —— Superliner Dorm
5245|5345 —— Superliner Sleeper
5243|5343 —— Superliner Sleeper
5241|5341 —— Superliner Sleeper Deluxe
5240|5340 —— Superliner Sleeper Deluxe
5242|5342 —— Superliner Sleeper
5244|5344 —— Superliner Sleeper
------|---- ——-Sleeper Diner
------|---- —— Superliner Diner (as table car)
------|---- ——-Coach Diner
------|---- —— Superliner Auto Train Lounge

5210|5310 —— Superliner Coach
5211|5311 —— Superliner Coach
5212|5312 —— Superliner Coach
5213|5313 —— Superliner Coach
5214|5314 —— Superliner Coach

So for the unfortunate ones in the first or last car (sleeper or coach), it could be an 8 to 10 car walk to get to a seat for dinner, or the lounge car (depending on how the consist is set up)!

Really Amtrak, you think this makes sense to families with young kids or seniors? I guess Amtrak wants people to stay in their seats and not walk around and annoy the staff with silly things like wanting to be fed.
Amtrak really wants to prove its the longest passenger train in the world, and the walk will prove it.


----------



## Ryan

The HEP limitation comes from the current limitations on the wires that run from car to car.

The only way to fix it is to put a locomotive (or generator car) in between the passenger cars and the auto racks and have part of the consist fed from the front and part of the consist fed from the back.

However, FRA regs say that you have to be able to cut off HEP from the operating cab, which you can't do if you're running the train on two separate systems. MU cables aren't set up to control HEP, so you'd have to either rig up some type of alternative control mechanism or pay someone to ride in the locomotive/generator car to cut off the HEP if needed.

Neither one of which is cheap, which is why it hasn't happened yet.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> trainviews said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . . if you have a very long train that runs close to 75 percent full, and it still doesn't make money - then you're doing something wrong! And I'm not talking about avoidable costs or before overhead here. If you count that the AT is above water, but a train running this well - it has to make enough money that it also pays its share of general company expenses. . . .
> 
> There's basically only two ways of doing this - save on costs or raise prices.
> 
> 
> 
> . . . In railroading, vast quantities of the expenses are fixed costs, and very little of the expenses are variable costs. Economies of scale. This means that the *third*, and *correct*, way of doing this is to spread out the fixed costs over an even larger number of variable costs.
> So yes, add a coach to the train, and more autoracks. . . .
Click to expand...

I'm always for adding another frequency. Of course, there's a terrible shortage of equipment, but in my dream world (CSX is in my nightmare world, LOL). But I can see room for a second AutoTrain.

The current schedule at Lorton:

Auto Train begins accepting vehicles at
11 30A
Motorcycles and trailers accepted no later than
2 00P
Priority Vehicle Offloading vehicles accepted no later than
2 30P
Passenger boarding begins at
2 30P
No Vehicle will be accepted after 
3 00P
Auto Train departs boarding station
4 00P
Auto Train arrives at destination station
9 30 A

==================

A second, earlier schedule at Lorton:

Auto Train begins accepting vehicles at
8 00A
Motorcycles and trailers accepted no later than
10 30A
Priority Vehicle Offloading vehicles accepted no later than
10 30A
Passenger boarding begins at
11 00A
NO Vehicle will be accepted after 
11 30A
Auto Train departs boarding station
12 30P
Auto Train arrives at destination station
6 00 A

A revised, later schedule at Lorton:

Auto Train begins accepting vehicles at
12 30P
Motorcycles and trailers accepted no later than
1 00P
Priority Vehicle Offloading vehicles accepted no later than
3 30P
Passenger boarding begins at
3 30P
NO Vehicle will be accepted after 
4 00P
Auto Train departs boarding station
5 00P
Auto Train arrives at destination station
10 30 A

Someone with expertise, like someone at Amtrak, could tweak this schedule. That 6 00A arrival looks too damn early. I was allowing plenty of time between the two arrivals. If the arrival protocol does not require as much time, the Sanford arrival could be later. Of course, lots of people, especially retired people, for reasons I've never understood even not that I am one, like to get up early and get going. I'll just stake that later train, thank you.

Running two shorter Auto Trains instead of one Mega Train could allow a slightly shorter boarding protocol for both, so that might allow a departure at 1 00P or 1 30P giving an arrival more or less 7 00A.


Anyway, that's my plan. Break even or make a modest surplus on one Auto Train and make a nice surplus on the volume of a second frequency.


----------



## Ryan

There's absolutely no space at either terminal for a second train.


----------



## dabrilloman

Damn, I need to get my eyes checked...I thought the topic read "Auto Train Cults"...


----------



## VentureForth

It sounds like with these cuts, there won't be a need for a 5th coach. That'll save more money. In fact, to save a LOT of money, get rid of the sleepers, get rid of the diners, get rid of the lounges, and just operate coaches. Then, you'll only need about 8 car carriers because of the lack of ridership, and only two onboard crew - a single coach attendant and a conductor.

I was chastised without mercy on suggesting improvements to the Auto Train service with all kinds of replies such as "Don't mess with something that's actually making money".

Well, they are making changes, and it's going to kill the AT.

Again, this is the only train in the system where everyone is an end to end rider, and it travels during the evening when everyone wants to sleep. EVERYONE would _prefer_ to sleep horizontal but price points drive many riders to take coach.

Run sectionals, tweak UP the cost of coach to cover, and keep the First Class vs. Sectional (ala coach class) differences in service, and this train will only continue to help subsidize the rest of the system.

Again, other than in personnell, I would argue that Amtrak doesn't have an expense problem, they have a revenue problem.


----------



## Ryan

A "solution" that's completely impractical isn't a solution.

Unless you know where Amtrak can come up with the money for the rolling stock to make it happen.


----------



## Anderson

It's possible that Amtrak could get an RRIF loan for a special power car for the train (the ability to add 3-4 cars to the train would be a good thing, though this would probably create an issue with being able to add enough autoracks), but that would probably create a bunch of maintenance issues since it would be dedicated, specialized equipment. The Auto Train is the one LD train I can think of Amtrak being able to justify an RRIF loan outright on the basis of expected profits.

The problem is that with a dedicated power car, you'd probably be looking at something like $50m for the project (assuming four power cars, given that you'd basically be special ordering the set and therefore having to do a lot of ground-up engineering, especially if you wanted to set it up so as not to block one set of cars from the others).


----------



## afigg

VentureForth said:


> It sounds like with these cuts, there won't be a need for a 5th coach. That'll save more money. In fact, to save a LOT of money, get rid of the sleepers, get rid of the diners, get rid of the lounges, and just operate coaches. Then, you'll only need about 8 car carriers because of the lack of ridership, and only two onboard crew - a single coach attendant and a conductor.
> 
> I was chastised without mercy on suggesting improvements to the Auto Train service with all kinds of replies such as "Don't mess with something that's actually making money".
> 
> Well, they are making changes, and it's going to kill the AT.


I for one doubt that there will be a noticeable drop in ridership because of these changes. The coach passengers won't see much of a difference, while the sleeper passengers lose the lounge car. But, since the service changes are going to be implemented rather quickly, it won't take that long to see what the effect is on ridership and revenue. Have to give it a few months so the ticket sales begin to reflect those who booked after the changes were implemented, but the July and August peak months should be far enough out to provide info on whether there is erosion in sleeper passengers.
Now if Amtrak goes further with cuts such as replacing the dining service with pre-made box meals with stale sandwiches, that would likely hurt sales.


----------



## SubwayNut

The one (sort of regularly scheduled) passenger railway in the US I can think of that uses power cars is the Rocky Mountaineer. They generally only one behind the locomotive but for longer trains they stick one in the rear. The power cars I think are converted baggage cars. In 1999 they set a Canadian Passenger train record by running 41 cars (Source).

Here is a power car in the middle of a consist: (the _Rainforest to Gold Rush_ Route (and train) had just made its last trip of the year, and was attached at the front end of the last or second to last _Journey through the Clouds_ run to deadhead back to their main yard and shops in Kamloops). By putting the revenue cars in the back it gave passengers in the rear gold leaf dome a rear back railfan window vestibule view:







Later on that trip I road one with power cars on the front and on the rear, that must have been about a 20 car train.


----------



## jis

Does Rocky Mountaineer use their 41 car consist on a run anywhere in the US? Or do you now consider Canada to be part of the US? 

It is also worth remembering that Canadian HEP and Amtrak HEP are somewhat different.


----------



## Nathanael

RyanS said:


> The HEP limitation comes from the current limitations on the wires that run from car to car.


OK. That's fairly annoying. It sounds like the original HEP system was not designed properly back in the 1970s -- I suppose they thought "nobody will ever have a train this long again"? Stupid. Anyway...



> The only way to fix it is to put a locomotive (or generator car) in between the passenger cars and the auto racks and have part of the consist fed from the front and part of the consist fed from the back.


Sounds easy.



> However, FRA regs say that you have to be able to cut off HEP from the operating cab, which you can't do if you're running the train on two separate systems.


FRA regs again. I wonder what accident caused this regulation? Probably no accident, probably just the usual nonsense. Railroading attracts people on the autism spectrum (I should know) and people on the autism spectrum tend to like hard, bright-line rules even when they're inappropriate (I should know).



> MU cables aren't set up to control HEP, so you'd have to either rig up some type of alternative control mechanism


Cheap. Easy. Simple. I could get it working absolutely reliably in a month, and it would be under a million dollars to equip the fleet. More and more plugs have been added between cars over the years, and it's not really work to add another one for *control circuitry*, which is easy compared to pressurized air or high voltage power. The problem of getting the system certified through the various layers of red tape, of course, would probably take years.....



> or pay someone to ride in the locomotive/generator car to cut off the HEP if needed.


There's a conductor, isn't there? And an assistant conductor? This is the sort of thing they do on freight trains, isn't it?



> Neither one of which is cheap, which is why it hasn't happened yet.


I dispute the claim that these are not cheap. I say they are in fact cheap, but they are difficult to implement due to layers of regulations and rules.

Here's an alternative proposal, which shouldn't hit the regulatory thicket. The limitation on HEP is apparently driven by air conditioning. The air conditioning systems in the Superliners are over 30 years old. Replace them with modern air conditioning, save energy, and allow the HEP to extend over more cars. This would be more expensive but would have long-term payback.


----------



## TVRM610

jis said:


> Does Rocky Mountaineer use their 41 car consist on a run anywhere in the US? Or do you now consider Canada to be part of the US?
> 
> It is also worth remembering that Canadian HEP and Amtrak HEP are somewhat different.


Not a 41 car consist... but Mountaineer does run into Seattle, presumably with a power car to provide HEP to the train. It would be interesting to know how that works with the FRA regulations.

Personally.. even without the FRA regulations I don't see why Amtrak would want to use a locomotive just to power a lounge car on the Auto Train. Doesn't make sense in my book.. the lounge car already loses money... adding a diesel locomotive per consist plus the actual diesel fuel...


----------



## Northeastern292

VentureForth said:


> It sounds like with these cuts, there won't be a need for a 5th coach. That'll save more money. In fact, to save a LOT of money, get rid of the sleepers, get rid of the diners, get rid of the lounges, and just operate coaches. Then, you'll only need about 8 car carriers because of the lack of ridership, and only two onboard crew - a single coach attendant and a conductor.
> 
> I was chastised without mercy on suggesting improvements to the Auto Train service with all kinds of replies such as "Don't mess with something that's actually making money".
> 
> Well, they are making changes, and it's going to kill the AT.
> 
> Again, this is the only train in the system where everyone is an end to end rider, and it travels during the evening when everyone wants to sleep. EVERYONE would _prefer_ to sleep horizontal but price points drive many riders to take coach.
> 
> Run sectionals, tweak UP the cost of coach to cover, and keep the First Class vs. Sectional (ala coach class) differences in service, and this train will only continue to help subsidize the rest of the system.
> 
> Again, other than in personnell, *I would argue that Amtrak doesn't have an expense problem, they have a revenue problem.*


Part of it is PRIIA has done more to hurt Amtrak than help. Congress has NOT let Amtrak do its job. Hopefully the damage will be short lived and Amtrak will tell Congress that "no perks, no revenue".

And of course the airlines are going to have lower costs. Amtrak's engineers and conductors probably earn more than a fifth year regional airline pilot.



Nathanael said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The HEP limitation comes from the current limitations on the wires that run from car to car.
> 
> 
> 
> OK. That's fairly annoying. It sounds like the original HEP system was not designed properly back in the 1970s -- I suppose they thought "nobody will ever have a train this long again"? Stupid. Anyway...
> 
> 
> 
> The only way to fix it is to put a locomotive (or generator car) in between the passenger cars and the auto racks and have part of the consist fed from the front and part of the consist fed from the back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sounds easy.
> 
> 
> 
> However, FRA regs say that you have to be able to cut off HEP from the operating cab, which you can't do if you're running the train on two separate systems.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *FRA regs again. I wonder what accident caused this regulation? Probably no accident, probably just the usual nonsense. Railroading attracts people on the autism spectrum (I should know) and people on the autism spectrum tend to like hard, bright-line rules even when they're inappropriate (I should know).*
> 
> 
> 
> MU cables aren't set up to control HEP, so you'd have to either rig up some type of alternative control mechanism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Cheap. Easy. Simple. I could get it working absolutely reliably in a month, and it would be under a million dollars to equip the fleet. More and more plugs have been added between cars over the years, and it's not really work to add another one for *control circuitry*, which is easy compared to pressurized air or high voltage power. The problem of getting the system certified through the various layers of red tape, of course, would probably take years.....
> 
> 
> 
> or pay someone to ride in the locomotive/generator car to cut off the HEP if needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's a conductor, isn't there? And an assistant conductor? This is the sort of thing they do on freight trains, isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Neither one of which is cheap, which is why it hasn't happened yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dispute the claim that these are not cheap. I say they are in fact cheap, but they are difficult to implement due to layers of regulations and rules.
> 
> Here's an alternative proposal, which shouldn't hit the regulatory thicket. The limitation on HEP is apparently driven by air conditioning. The air conditioning systems in the Superliners are over 30 years old. Replace them with modern air conditioning, save energy, and allow the HEP to extend over more cars. This would be more expensive but would have long-term payback.
Click to expand...

Let's not bring Sheldon Cooper into this....  Then again, I don't know this story, so....


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

I am sure the FRA reg about the control the Hotel power from the cab are reference a derailment and Fire Rescue EMS interaction with the train.

No need to electrocute the 911 people because nobody knew there was two power generating sources to the train.

Had a training course up in Windsor Locks CT, which had info about the third rail and its hazards. Nice info but just not a issue in that area of the state.


----------



## jis

TVRM610 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does Rocky Mountaineer use their 41 car consist on a run anywhere in the US? Or do you now consider Canada to be part of the US?
> 
> It is also worth remembering that Canadian HEP and Amtrak HEP are somewhat different.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a 41 car consist... but Mountaineer does run into Seattle, presumably with a power car to provide HEP to the train. It would be interesting to know how that works with the FRA regulations.
> Personally.. even without the FRA regulations I don't see why Amtrak would want to use a locomotive just to power a lounge car on the Auto Train. Doesn't make sense in my book.. the lounge car already loses money... adding a diesel locomotive per consist plus the actual diesel fuel...
Click to expand...

Actually Amtrak itself has used power cars in the past. This was during the transition from self generating cars to HEP. When Amfleet trains were pulled by GG-1s they had a pwoer car to provide power. I think at that time the requirement was that the power car had to be staffed by an individual who controlled the HEP system, since it could not be controlled by the engineer. So net net it required one more person to staff the train.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Actually Amtrak itself has used power cars in the past. This was during the transition from self generating cars to HEP. When Amfleet trains were pulled by GG-1s they had a pwoer car to provide power. I think at that time the requirement was that the power car had to be staffed by an individual who controlled the HEP system, since it could not be controlled by the engineer. So net net it required one more person to staff the train.


It's not unreasonable to require *someone* to be permanently "near the switch" to cut it off. It's also not difficult to wire up a remote control line, for what is already basically a captive fleet.
Thinking about this, I'm wondering whether Amtrak is still chafing under the CSX "50-car" limitation, which is truly arbitrary.

Someone explained up above that they believe Amtrak can handle one more coach with the existing number of autoracks (which surprised me.)

In that case, the problem is probably the 50 car limit. If adding a power car would require removing an autorack, then of course the problems become obvious. What you want to do is to add a power car, several coaches, maybe another lounge and table car, and likely a couple of autoracks, all at once. The extra staffing pays for itself, the retrofitting is cheap enough, and it's really fairly straightforward *if you're allowed to make the train that long*.

But if the "50 car limit" is still in place, then Amtrak is stuck: for every car it adds, it must remove something. This would be binding in a way in which the HEP limit isn't. But it's a much stupider limit. There is obviously no technical reason for such an arbitrary, round number. Longer than the sidings? Occupying multiple blocks at once? The Class Is run freight trains like that all the damn time, so that's no excuse.


----------



## Allypet

I just called Amtrak because I have rooms booked in 2 different cars for my July AT trip. They called me the other day to see if I wanted to move them to the same car. I declined at that time because I knew, or thought I knew, where my cars were in relation to the location of the lounge and the diner. After reading this thread I wasn't sure so I called them to see where my cars would wind up in relation to each other.

Today the agent did confirm that the sleeper lounge is being removed to add a coach. But I couldn't get a straight answer on where the 2 cars are now located in relation to each other or the rest of the train. I guess I will have to wait until someone posts the new consist so I can make a decision whether to stay put or move both my rooms into a different car. At least its now official.


----------



## FormerOBS

Apologies to all for a couple minor errors/misstatements.

Carolyn Jane: I understood that the 50-car maximum on Auto Train included locomotives. More recently, I have heard that it does not include the locos.

To all: As I said above, I'm not qualified to answer the q


----------



## FormerOBS

Sorry. Above prematurely posted. To continue:

I'm not qualified to discuss the question of adding an additional loco for HEP. Many years ago, power cables were blown when the number of cars grew too great and HEP power demand exceeded a certain level.

CREW DORM: My recollections about the Auto Train lounge cars was based entirely on memory, and it's mostly accurate. I am trying to contact some folks who have access to more reliable info and I will post corrections or clarifications if and when I get them.

Allypet: I understand that you were disappointed, but your posting used terms like "so-so", "terrible", "crappy", and "nasty", without any specifics. Bad travel experiences do happen, even as we try to prevent them. Without something specific, I can't respond.

To all: Many comments have been made by people who obviously have no experience in onboard meal service delivery on a busy, 70-mph train. Concerns about space constraints are being ignored or brushed aside. There is delivery and stowage of supplies to consider; the reliance on a finite supply of such basics as water for cooking, hand washing, dish washing, etc. There is safe storage of trash until it can be removed from the train. There is the fact that travelers do not always want a particular service at the time that is best for the attendants to provide it.

Now that the fifth coach is in service on the train and a fourth dinner service has been started, it has become difficult to keep meal seatings on time. They were theoretically reduced from 2 hours (5:00; 7:00; and 9:00) to 1 hr. 30 minutes (4:30; 6:00; 7:30; and 9:00), but each meal service has tended to take about 1 hr. 45 minutes minimum, so that the last seating has frequently been starting around 9:45 or 10:00 pm. This has required the crew to rush through their work and frequently give up any meal break for themselves. A number of crew members have expressed concern about the inherent safety concerns and their own health. There is concern that removal of the lounge will mean a dramatic increase in foot traffic through three busy, crowded dining cars during meal service. Additionally, there have been times when obs staff have had to resort to a waiting list for people waiting for breakfast. Without the extra lounge car, where will they wait?

Hopefully, Management will address these issues.


----------



## Allypet

OBS. Thank you for your reply. About my comments about so-so and nasty, I'm sorry that was wasn't more specific. Other then just some general nastiness I will point out 2 events that happened to me. The first is during one trip I noticed the wine lady, as we like to call her, offering my 17 year old son wine during dinner, and of course he said yes! So she served him. I would have thought they would by a little more cautious about who they serve.

The other event was after dinner, the server was throwing plates down on the tables all night was was rude in her demeanor. I decided to have jello for desert after dinner. I was served while I was having a pleasant conversation with our table mates. When the jello arrived our server placed the jello on the table she then asked if I wanted whipped cream, and I said yes. She slammed it on the table and stood there. I really didn't pay any mind to this, but in retrospect I guess she was waiting for me to use it. After a few seconds she snatches the can of whipped cream off the table. I guess she thought I wanted her to put the cream on top, which I didn't, I was just talking, and I didn't know there was a time limit on whipped cream. When I saw her do this and the look on her face, I immediately said, that's ok, I'll do it, she then slams the can back down on the table, but she catches the edge of the jello bowl causing it to flip over and the jello flew over the table and me.

I was mortified. All the tables around were commenting on how nasty she was. I refused another jello and left. Just for the record I didn't make a scene, or make a complain. I just left.


----------



## FormerOBS

Allypet: I can't and won't try to justify either of those incidents. One reason I chose not to bid on the wine tasting job is that I don't like to guess at people's ages and it's often hard to tell. When I have served wine, I have always asked for ID when I have had any question at all, and I think that's true of everybody on my particular crew. As for the whipped cream incident, it was just plain wrong. I hope you complained. Those things do not represent the attitudes and practices that have characterized the Auto Train during my 25+ years, and we veterans DO NOT approve of anyone who sullies our reputation. We have worked too hard to build that reputation.

Nathanael: Are you seriously proposing that we replace the AC systems on all of the A-T's passenger cars? That's 34 cars in service, plus the spares kept in reserve to cover shop time. Because of the unique design of the Superliners, they would all have to be custom-built. Big news: Amtrak doesn't own a gold mine. Besides, I don't know whether that would reduce the strain on the cables sufficiently. As I said, it's not my field.

Sorry. I shouldn't be snarky, but I couldn't resist.


----------



## jimhudson

Thanks for the info from one on the front lines! Since the AT has its own Seniority List will the LSAs who worked the cut Lounge be moved to work the Coach or to the Diner to help with the crush that is sure to come with the additional passengers from the added Coach?

I don't think regular AT riders will like these nickel and dime cheesy cuts and think the complaints will be many @ the prices that Amtrak charges for this Downgraded Service! Keep us Posted!


----------



## neroden

FormerOBS said:


> Now that the fifth coach is in service on the train and a fourth dinner service has been started, it has become difficult to keep meal seatings on time. They were theoretically reduced from 2 hours (5:00; 7:00; and 9:00) to 1 hr. 30 minutes (4:30; 6:00; 7:30; and 9:00), but each meal service has tended to take about 1 hr. 45 minutes minimum, so that the last seating has frequently been starting around 9:45 or 10:00 pm. This has required the crew to rush through their work and frequently give up any meal break for themselves. A number of crew members have expressed concern about the inherent safety concerns and their own health. There is concern that removal of the lounge will mean a dramatic increase in foot traffic through three busy, crowded dining cars during meal service. Additionally, there have been times when obs staff have had to resort to a waiting list for people waiting for breakfast. Without the extra lounge car, where will they wait?


Predictable results. Hell, I predicted it upthread.



> Hopefully, Management will address these issues.


I certainly hope so. It seems like ****-poor planning on management's part. This is a good way to drive patronage away and force reduced prices.



FormerOBS said:


> Nathanael: Are you seriously proposing that we replace the AC systems on all of the A-T's passenger cars? That's 34 cars in service, plus the spares kept in reserve to cover shop time. Because of the unique design of the Superliners, they would all have to be custom-built. Big news: Amtrak doesn't own a gold mine.


Well, in the long run, it's replace the A/C or replace the Superliners. Which is what Amtrak's planning to do, I suppose. I believe the Viewliner A/C (and everything else) is a lot easier to retrofit due to the modular design. Arguably it's not worth spending a penny on Superliner retrofits and they should just be scrapped and replaced.

But if Amtrak is going to keep the Superliners around -- if Amtrak can't afford to replace them -- then they're going to need some major retrofits fairly soon anyway. Retrofitting the A/C is a very logical retrofit because it could have very large energy savings. Most A/C from the 1970s uses something like 1.5 times the electricity of modern A/C, for the same result. This is a big energy efficiency difference.



> Besides, I don't know whether that would reduce the strain on the cables sufficiently. As I said, it's not my field.


I don't know that either because I don't know what percentage of the strain is actually from the A/C. But as I say, the energy efficiency savings is enormous. Switching to LED lighting would have large savings as well and might be easier to retrofit.
Of course, all this is moot if the real limit is the 50-car limit rather than the HEP limit.

====

Further question about the dining car service, if you don't mind. Is the first limitation on speed *number of tables*, *waiters*, *cooking staff*, or *kitchen facilities*?

From the description of the situation, I strongly suspect that the limitation is either number of tables or waiters. If it's number of tables, Amtrak should add a second table car. If it's waiters (I forget Amtrak's technical term), hire another waiter. (I've seen Amtrak trains where the tables in the dining car are seriously underused -- half empty at any given time -- basically due to lack of waiters to fill and clear them. Inefficient.)

It gets harder if it's possible to seat everyone but the food can't come out of the kitchen fast enough. If the limitation is cooking staff, then go ahead and hire an assistant chef. If it's kitchen facilities, then that gets substantially more complicated and expensive to address, obviously.

There are economies of scale at all levels. Adding a table car (with no additional staff) is a pretty cheap way to expand diner capacity, for instance, if that's what works. Even adding a waiter still leverages economies of scale if you're using the same sized kitchen staff.


----------



## FormerOBS

On the Auto Train, all onboard service attendants are qualified to work all positions with one exception: Chef. Even so, many are qualified for Chef as well. Those who work the Lead Service Attendant (LSA) positions in the sleeper lounges on the five crews will continue in their positions until the jobs (and the lounge cars) are abolished. This will happen around the time that all jobs go up for semiannual re-bid. All will bid on the jobs they want on the crews they prefer, and the person with the highest seniority gets the job he/she wants. Since there won't be so many lounge LSA jobs, those who are displaced will get their second, third, fourth, etc. choices. Ultimately, some will end up on the extra board. I don't know whether they will stay on the board, possibly working less often, or if they will be furloughed. Until recently, the crew size has been adjusted when the passenger count goes over a certain number. Crews have been told from now on there will be no increase in crew size, no matter what the passenger count.


----------



## Allypet

FormerOBS. It is terrible that Amtrak is deciding to go this route. I am going to miss the sleeper lounge car, I used it all the time. I like hanging out in it with my family and sometimes even watched the cheesy movies. I did however couldn't help but notice that sales have been on the slow side and wondered how long that would last. I did not notice that the car was empty, in fact on all my AT trips the car was crowded. When they decided to charge for priority off loading, I took advantage of that. I felt that I was helping Amtrak make money and I received something in return. I like the extras, and don't mind paying.

What do you mean there wont be an increase in crew size? Are you saying that dining car staff wont be increased, or will Amtrak go as far as not adding car attendants when addition cars are added? Either way I think this is petty thinking on their part.


----------



## VentureForth

RyanS said:


> A "solution" that's completely impractical isn't a solution.
> 
> Unless you know where Amtrak can come up with the money for the rolling stock to make it happen.


 Hmmm... They are finding two more coaches when they want to. It's not like they're converting the lounges...


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Please, Venturforth, don't be a nitwit. Finding two cars and finding enough cars for what you are proposing is two different things.


----------



## FormerOBS

They found 2 coaches to add to a train that will be able to run with them close to capacity. I don't know where they found them. Maybe an adjustment of maintenance schedule that allows cars to spend more time on the road in between trips to the shop. Maybe from another train where they were not running at full capacity. Maybe something else. That does not mean Amtrak can find a spare car whenever they want to or need to.

As for the decision not to increase the crew size in response to higher passenger counts, I'm just repeating what the crews have been told by Management. I can't accurately predict how this will work out.


----------



## Ryan

It's easier to be a nitwit than to defend the indefensible.


----------



## VentureForth

Seriously, GML - shut up.

And Ryan, you're something I can't mention here. You've pissed off enough new members...

FormerOBS, a polite and reasonable response, though they did just that - come up with two new coaches.

I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach _*over time*_. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...

But that's ok. Resort to calling names & attacks. So effective. How many folks have blocked you or don't come back here because of you?

What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Eh, I told myself that if three people tell me in a reasonable way to shut up and go away, I'll shut up and go away. You're number one. I wonder if there will be a number two and three?


----------



## Paulus

VentureForth said:


> FormerOBS, a polite and reasonable response, though they did just that - come up with two new coaches.
> 
> I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach _*over time*_. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...


You do need to start with probably half a dozenish cars at once in order to have them available for all sets, protection, and maintenance scheduling.



> What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.


Half of the endpoint to endpoint riders on the Western LDTs ride in coach, multiple nights each. What exactly is indefensible about having half of the riders sitting halfway up on a single overnight?


----------



## VentureForth

Green Maned Lion said:


> Eh, I told myself that if three people tell me in a reasonable way to shut up and go away, I'll shut up and go away. You're number one. I wonder if there will be a number two and three?


You're quite charasmatic, so you will maintain your following. Even I enjoy most of your writings and am happy to see you back here. I don't even want you to go away. But you and Ryan's tendicies to shoot first and aim later (if ever) seems to (me) erase the sensible stuff you have to say.



Paulus said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> FormerOBS, a polite and reasonable response, though they did just that - come up with two new coaches.
> 
> I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach _*over time*_. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...
> 
> 
> 
> You do need to start with probably half a dozenish cars at once in order to have them available for all sets, protection, and maintenance scheduling.
Click to expand...

I suspect you need three - one per train with one in the shop. Don't even need the one in the shop so long as spares are available.



Paulus said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.
> 
> 
> 
> Half of the endpoint to endpoint riders on the Western LDTs ride in coach, multiple nights each. What exactly is indefensible about having half of the riders sitting halfway up on a single overnight?
Click to expand...

I've been a big advocate on having 2nd class sleepers on all LD routes, but I understand that there are cost implications. The uniqueness of the AT is that EVERY rider is end to end. There is no NEED for coach because everyone is riding from end to end, and the trip is overnight.


----------



## FormerOBS

I'm not sure what's being suggested about the pool of spare equipment. It's there so that the train will always have enough equipment available to run fully equipped every day. The "spares" are not just sitting there. They undergo routine maintenance so they can be cut in when it's time for another car to be cycled through maintenance. Is somebody suggesting that 100% of the equipment should be on the road 100% of the time, without any down time for maintenance? If so, I'm glad you're not in charge.


----------



## oldtimer

VentureForth said:


> Seriously, GML - shut up.
> 
> And Ryan, you're something I can't mention here. You've pissed off enough new members...
> 
> I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach _*over time*_. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...
> 
> But that's ok. Resort to calling names & attacks. That's the liberal way...
> 
> What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.


First of all the members that you criticize are *very knowledgeable*, and their ideas are supported by another member that has actual working knowledge of the day to day situation, not weaning nostalgia for 40+ years ago. I can also speak from 35+ years of work experience on Amtrak mechanical equipment.

I know that Amtrak's current fleet is stretched to the limit and also wore out. Don't talk about the _Canadian_ or Ed Ellis's Iowa Pacific. These fleets either have many replacements and parts salvaged from a large fleet of retired cars, or in the Iowa Pacific just rebuilt and still are used on a limited mileage basis compared to Amtrak's fleet.

RCM is easy when you have a new fleet or one that is already at 100% when it is implemented. It also depends on having the tools, parts and time to properly service the equipment. This is not available probably outside of the Acela program that has separate mechanical facilities with routine service procedures and extra long layovers on a regular rotation to complete service.

Another problem is that the mechanical forces are retiring at a record pace. Where do you go to find a qualified railroad car-repairman, nowhere, as other carriers pay more than Amtrak and some even have greater benefits. The same is true for electricians, pipefitters, plumbers and other crafts. Training takes people away from production, so it is highly discouraged. It can shorten the time needed to make a good railroader but even with the training it still takes time to make a railroader, not a skill commonly taught today.

Let me end my rant now, and name calling has been done by many people with a political objective. *Liberal* is a dirty word to many with that political point of view. There are political guidelines set out by our founder, Anthony, many need to read them please.


----------



## VentureForth

I don't think anyone suggested that - certainly not me. Amtrak is pulling (from somewhere) two (or three) Superliner coaches to add to the AutoTrain.

I've been attacked, villified, and been attacked without mercy suggesting that Amtrak convert (over time) the coaches to high capacity semi-private sleepers in the style of slumbercoaches or sectionals. The attacks came from "Where are they going to get the money" and "Where are they going to get these coaches".

Seems like Amtrak has a way of finding what they want when they need it.


----------



## Paulus

VentureForth said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> FormerOBS, a polite and reasonable response, though they did just that - come up with two new coaches.
> 
> I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach _*over time*_. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...
> 
> 
> 
> You do need to start with probably half a dozenish cars at once in order to have them available for all sets, protection, and maintenance scheduling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suspect you need three - one per train with one in the shop. Don't even need the one in the shop so long as spares are available.
Click to expand...

Only if you really like canceling a bunch of sleeper fares when you get a bad order car that can't be fixed in time.



> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.
> 
> 
> 
> Half of the endpoint to endpoint riders on the Western LDTs ride in coach, multiple nights each. What exactly is indefensible about having half of the riders sitting halfway up on a single overnight?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've been a big advocate on having 2nd class sleepers on all LD routes, but I understand that there are cost implications. The beauty of the AT is that EVERY rider is end to end. There is no NEED for coach because everyone is riding from end to end, and the trip is overnight.
Click to expand...

Sure there's a need for coach: 120 additional revenue seats. Even with higher seating density thanks to open berths or slumber coaches or something, you're looking at a major potential loss in income.

Remember, Amtrak is limited to a 50 car maximum on the Auto Train. Anything which increases the number of seats that they can sell is for the better as far as they're concerned. If they could get away with cutting the sleepers, diners, and running nothing but Superliner coach cars and auto carriers, they would be fools not to jump on the opportunity to do so.


----------



## VentureForth

oldtimer said:


> First of all the members that you criticize are *very knowledgeable*, and their ideas are supported by another member that has actual working knowledge of the day to day situation, not weaning nostalgia for 40+ years ago. I can also speak from 35+ years of work experience on Amtrak mechanical equipment.


You're right. I'm not knowledgeable as I am a nitwit and indefensible. But if it's *ME* criticizing *them* by reacting to the way they just talked to me, I'm NOT sorry. I didn't critize anything about any of their *very knowledgeable*ness.



oldtimer said:


> Let me end my rant now, and name calling has been done by many people with a political objective. *Liberal* is a dirty word to many with that political point of view. There are political guidelines set out by our founder, Anthony, many need to read them please.


Yes Sir. I'm sorry.


----------



## oldtimer

VentureForth said:


> oldtimer said:
> 
> 
> 
> First of all the members that you criticize are *very knowledgeable*, and their ideas are supported by another member that has actual working knowledge of the day to day situation, not weaning nostalgia for 40+ years ago. I can also speak from 35+ years of work experience on Amtrak mechanical equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right. I'm not knowledgeable as I am a nitwit and indefensible.
> 
> 
> oldtimer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me end my rant now, and name calling has been done by many people with a political objective. *Liberal* is a dirty word to many with that political point of view. There are political guidelines set out by our founder, Anthony, many need to read them please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes Sir.
Click to expand...

Thank You for the Sarcasm!


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up. Let's not mess with "The forumla". So what do they do? They mess with the formula.


I already told you. There's no money to get the rolling stock to make this happen. Unless you can come up with a funding source, your "solution" is completely impractical.
If you've got a problem with my posts, contact the moderators. If they agree, I'm sure they'll let me know. but until that happens drop the faux outrage and the wannabe moderator act because your stupid "solution" got called out as stupid.


----------



## Ryan

FormerOBS said:


> I'm not sure what's being suggested about the pool of spare equipment. It's there so that the train will always have enough equipment available to run fully equipped every day. The "spares" are not just sitting there. They undergo routine maintenance so they can be cut in when it's time for another car to be cycled through maintenance. Is somebody suggesting that 100% of the equipment should be on the road 100% of the time, without any down time for maintenance? If so, I'm glad you're not in charge.


What's being suggested is that a fleet of "second class sleepers" with either old-school sectionals or airplane-style lie flat seats be magically conjured into existence to replace the coach seats on the Auto Train.
I'm sure it would be a great service that makes people happy and would be well patronized if it were to happen, but here in the real world where Amtrak can't afford flowers and newspapers, it's a completely impractical non-solution


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> You're right. I'm not knowledgeable as I am a nitwit and indefensible.


Point of order: I said you're acting like a nitwit and that this idea is indefensible. I said nothing about you as a person, I'm sure you're a lovely human being that's nothing rainbows and unicorn farts to get along with.

But instead of trying to defend your idea with a funding source, you resort to "Woe is me, I'm being attacked by mean people" arguments.

Edit to add: And the irony to decrying while name calling while subsequently doing the same thing "Resort to calling names & attacks. That's the liberal way..." is delicious. Treat others with respect if you want to be treated with respect.


----------



## VentureForth

RyanS said:


> but until that happens drop the faux outrage *and the wannabe moderator act* because your stupid "solution" got called out as stupid.


Source?


----------



## VentureForth

RyanS said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're right. I'm not knowledgeable as I am a nitwit and indefensible.
> 
> 
> 
> Point of order: I said you're acting like a nitwit and that this idea is indefensible. I said nothing about you as a person, I'm sure you're a lovely human being that's nothing rainbows and unicorn farts to get along with.
> 
> But instead of trying to defend your idea with a funding source, you resort to "Woe is me, I'm being attacked by mean people" arguments.
> 
> Edit to add: And the irony to decrying while name calling while subsequently doing the same thing "Resort to calling names & attacks. That's the liberal way..." is delicious. Treat others with respect if you want to be treated with respect.
Click to expand...

No you didn't. GML said "Don't *be* a nitwit, which you were so eagerly ready to respond with sarcasm and attacks yourself with "It's easier to be a nitwit than to defend the indefensible." The word "acting" never came from your posts.
Since you continue to treat me with DISrespect, I hope you understand that you are reaping what you have sowed.

BTW, I don't run Amtrak. Neither do you. I didn't know it was a requirement for posting in this forum to come up with a funding source to make a suggestion.

Quite frankly, with the exception of some moderate bit of success with bad LSAs and AGR issues, just about NO idea or comment that is made in this forum affects Amtrak one iota. Not ONCE in any of my posts until I was attacked did I ridicule anyone else's ideas or suggestions. Not ONCE have I called someone a nitwit or an idiot because of an idea they had. I'm just really sorry that there are people here who can't disagree without the other party being stupid.


----------



## Ryan

I see a lot of whining, but still fail to see a viable source of funding for your "solution". Do you have one, or is this just all smoke and mirrors to try and derail the conversation?

Sent from my iPhone


----------



## George Harris

VentureForth said:


> I've stated over and over again in my previous threads that you can ween into a slumbercoach/sectional type of coach _*over time*_. One at a time. Not go off and buy 10 brand new purpose built superliners at once and replace them. Someone else already mentioned that there are "spares" for maintenance being held in Sanford...
> 
> . . . .
> 
> What's indefensible is having an overnight train where half the riders have to sleep sitting half way up.


Before going down this road, it would be advisable to learn if the conditions that lead to dissapearance of the section sleeper in the few years following WW2 still apply. Yes, I know that section sleepers are still found in many parts of the world, but that does not mean that they will go over in the US. Thre are also many trains in other parts of the world where 50% or more, and in some places ALL of the riders are sleeping sitting up, and in seats that recline a lot less than those on Amtrak. Then, how about the overnight flights, where one night of relative discomfort is tolerated because of the money saved over more comfortable conditions.


----------



## rrdude

FormerOBS said:


> On the Auto Train, all onboard service attendants are qualified to work all positions with one exception: Chef. Even so, many are qualified for Chef as well. Those who work the Lead Service Attendant (LSA) positions in the sleeper lounges on the five crews will continue in their positions until the jobs (and the lounge cars) are abolished. This will happen around the time that all jobs go up for semiannual re-bid. All will bid on the jobs they want on the crews they prefer, and the person with the highest seniority gets the job he/she wants. Since there won't be so many lounge LSA jobs, those who are displaced will get their second, third, fourth, etc. choices. Ultimately, some will end up on the extra board. I don't know whether they will stay on the board, possibly working less often, or if they will be furloughed. Until recently, the crew size has been adjusted when the passenger count goes over a certain number. Crews have been told from now on there will be* no increase in crew size, no matter what the passenger count. *


And the insanity continues! Who is responsible for this idiocy? The AT, and most LD's with diners, actually need add'l staff, in order to_ provide proper service_. What a friggin [email protected]#$

I'm just _so over _this crap.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

You know, perhaps we are not being fair to VentureForth. George, I disagree. Todays youth are not quite as anti-public as the Greatest Generation and Baby Boomers. I think such cars would indeed be a success if priced appropriately. And I think in that light, I will give Ventureforth some numbers. Please keep in mind when I give you these numbers that I do tend to assume the high end of cost metrics, because it is safer to assume high costs when working out numbers, and it is likewise safer to assume low returns. I'm not making that up, its accounting 101, and its called "conservatism", and is a major facet of accounting theory.

A Superliner coach seat on the AutoTrain in what I assume is the current peak direction sells for $160 Value and $250 flexible. Current roomette price (the date is the 11th of this month, by the by) is $528 for one person, an up charge of of $278 for the flexible fare if you are riding single, or $139 per person if you are riding double, or $368/$229 single/double if your basis is the Value fare.

A Superliner Coach carries 74 passengers. At a price of $160/$250, that means that a fully loaded Superliner coach brings in somewhere between $11,840 and $18,500 for a full run. A Superliner with a old style sectional sleeper configuration could handle 52 passengers (just 8 more than a sleeper, by the by)

Let us assume the conversion would cost ~ $1,500,000, and whats a fair investment recovery period? 5 years? Ok, 5 years it is. We need three cars so one can sub in for maintenance and protect people riding in it, so the cost is $4,500,000. Based on this, you need to bring in at least $450,000 extra in revenue a year, or $616 a run. Seems like a small amount of money, but lets see.

Assuming a halfway point between those two numbers we've seen, the full coach car averages $15,000, or a run, or $202 a passenger. We need to make it do, to be fair, $16,000 a run, with a reduced passenger amount, it ends up at at a minimum price of $307, or $105 more than the sleeper per passenger.

That means that the minimum price for this bare-bones, low privacy sleeper is $173 less than that for a single person, of which there are few on the AutoTrain. It would work for them, most likely, and provide a market, if you can get enough single people on an AutoTrain to fill the car- frankly, you might be cannibalizing sales from the more profitable sleeper. For the pair of people traveling on the auto train the cost for two Sectional seats would be $614, versus a price of $630 for a private roomette at current prices. Frankly, I'd spend the $16, and so would anybody else who was given the option between a section and a roomette for an extra $16 on a $818 ticket (when you factor in the car price).

So might make sense financially, although I'd say the numbers are perhaps a bit marginal to commit to the investment. We are not talking about a huge revenue boost either way.


----------



## Bob Dylan

FormerOBS said:


> As for the decision not to increase the crew size in response to higher passenger counts, I'm just repeating what the crews have been told by Management. I can't accurately predict how this will work out.


 Unbeliebable! This is pure Idiocy on the part of Amtrak Managment! Stupid as Simplified Dinning, CCC Cars and 3 Day a Week LD Trains!

Imagine what the Folks that pay over $1,000 for an Overnight Trip will say when they find out they will not be able to find a Seat in the Lounge, be Eating a "Standardized" Dinner @ 10PM -11PM-and Paying for what used to be included (ie Wine etc.) in the Higher than the Fares that are Charged on the other LD Trains! And to expect an already Short Handed Crew to handle an additional 80-100 Passengers! Bet the Route Manager on this One and the Suits @ 60 Mass will have Burning Rear Ends to match their Faces when the Complaints roll in to Congress, CR and to Big Joes Office!

It's not to Late to Modify this Idiotic Idea before the Mess Hits the Fan! :help:


----------



## Bob Dylan

FWIW I like Venture Forths Slumber Coach Idea! If it was done as a Tria on the Auto Train, I think Coach riders would be willing to Pay a Little More for the Bed w/o Meals since it is an Overnight Route! Those that pay for the Sleeping Cars aren't Poor and IMO would continue to utilize the AT in Sleepers! This is the Route with the Most Repeat Riders of all the LD Trains!

Also what would be wrong with putting on a CCC as a Coach Lounge/Overflow Diner (Amtrak DOES have Spares siting in the yards)and Reserve the Sightseer Lounge for the Sleeping Car Passengers?


----------



## Ryan

Green Maned Lion said:


> So might make sense financially, although I'd say the numbers are perhaps a bit marginal to commit to the investment. We are not talking about a huge revenue boost either way.


And that Mil and a half has got to come from somewhere, and there's a couple dozen places that it could go before this dubious investment.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Indeed. But if I was the loan officer being consulted on this, I'd be dubious to say the least.


----------



## FormerOBS

They found TWO coaches --- TWO! In your mind, does that mean they have fifty more just sitting around gathering dust? That's quite a leap of logic. I don't want to attack anybody, and I certainly don't want to vilify anybody. But two coaches is hardly a fleet.


----------



## Karl1459

RyanS said:


> The HEP limitation comes from the current limitations on the wires that run from car to car.
> 
> The only way to fix it is to put a locomotive (or generator car) in between the passenger cars and the auto racks and have part of the consist fed from the front and part of the consist fed from the back.
> 
> However, FRA regs say that you have to be able to cut off HEP from the operating cab, which you can't do if you're running the train on two separate systems. MU cables aren't set up to control HEP, so you'd have to either rig up some type of alternative control mechanism or pay someone to ride in the locomotive/generator car to cut off the HEP if needed.
> 
> Neither one of which is cheap, which is why it hasn't happened yet.


A fairly simple idea (in my mind... obviously there are hundreds of reasons it wont work) for a solution would be to develop a control link at the separation of the front/remote HPE which adds a high frequency trace to the remote HEP side. Then have the remote HEP unit monitor for the presence of the high frequency. If the signal is interrupted for any reason the remote HEP is cut off, if signal is restored the remote HEP is re-energized. This would not require any additional in train wiring, as I envision the signal generator within a special between car connector cable. This RF signal is somewhat the concept that is used for some remote light/appliance control devices on household current.


----------



## FormerOBS

It was getting pretty uncivil and petty and downright childish there for a while. I'm glad everybody seems to have calmed down. VentureForth, your Slumbercoach suggestion involves equipment Amtrak doesn't even own, so I can't address it. ANY suggestions that involve ANY outlay of money are probably D. O. A. in the current climate. The deal is to cut expenditures --- not to increase them ---and to maximize revenue. Anything else is wishful thinking.


----------



## VentureForth

I would like to reiterate...

I don't want Slumbercoaches, and I don't want Sectionals. I would like to see _existing_ coaches phased out and replaced with refurbished coaches that incorporate some sort of high capacity sleeping arrangement. My mentioning of Slumbers and Sectionals was meant as a "for instance". I appreciate the aesthetics of a good consist, and reusing stock that's not been in inventory for decades tacked onto a Superliner consist is my first idea of ugly.

I appreciate GML's number crunching... I wonder if they did that sort of thing when they purchased all those new Viewliners.

So - what are cheaper alternatives that could raise the cost of a ticket (because a customer is willing to pay more for comfort) without losing existing customers and honestly without having to add new cars?

And I would like to get an answer to this - They say that the Auto Train can run up to 50 cars. I've never counted more than around 36, but obviously I don't count them every day. If this is the case, are there really 28 (14 x 2) coaches/sleepers/car carriers "laying around" Sanford or Lorton?

One final point back on the topic of this thread. It has been mentioned that the AT has the most number of repeat customers than any other train in the LD system. You don't muck around with repeat customers by increasing their prices and decreasing their services. The most prolific AT rider that I'm aware of is AlanB and he's been unusually quiet. Would HE continue to take the AT as often as he has with these changes?


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> I don't want Slumbercoaches, and I don't want Sectionals. I would like to see _existing_ coaches phased out and replaced with refurbished coaches that incorporate some sort of high capacity sleeping arrangement.


1. Where do the coaches come from for conversion?

2. Where does the money to do those conversions come from?

3. Is that the best use of that money and "found" coaches, or would it be better served going towards increasing capacity (and therefore revenue potential)?


----------



## rrdude

VentureForth said:


> They say that the Auto Train can run up to 50 cars. I've never counted more than around 36, but obviously I don't count them every day. If this is the case, are there really 28 (14 x 2) coaches/sleepers/car carriers "laying around" Sanford or Lorton?


VF, I "think" CSX's 50 car limit includes the Auto-Racks, so I wud guess "no" there is NOT "really 28 (14 x 2) coaches/sleepers/car carriers "laying around" Sanford or Lorton?...."


----------



## FormerOBS

rrdude: BINGO! Up till now, the standard consist has been 16 passenger cars plus however many auto carriers it takes to accommodate that day's vehicles. Sometimes the passenger count is low due to seasonal fluctuations. Sometimes the ratio of passengers to vehicles is high, such as mid-summer when a lot of large families put Mom, Dad, & six kids into a van. Currently we have 17 passenger cars, plus however many auto carriers we need. As for your idea of modifying coaches into some kind of ersatz sleeper, the passenger capacity would decrease, the price would increase, and Amtrak doesn't have the money to do the conversions anyway. I have to go to work now.


----------



## VentureForth

RyanS said:


> 1. Where do the coaches come from for conversion?
> 
> 2. Where does the money to do those conversions come from?
> 
> 3. Is that the best use of that money and "found" coaches, or would it be better served going towards increasing capacity (and therefore revenue potential)?


1. Same place they found two coaches to add to the current consist starting in two weeks.2. Same place they found the money to build 120 new Viewliners - 80 of which arguable lose money (diners/baggage).

3. Never said it was. My idea was simply a way to generate conversation about how to KEEP AT passengers rather than lose them.

Initial ideas are rarely perfect. Each idea produces pros and cons that then generate new ideas. Eventually, a workable solution is discovered and implemented. Even that final solution is rarely perfect, but rather a compromise of need, logistics, performance and effectiveness.

In my business, there are stupid, nitwitted ideas all the time - and some from very experienced, highly trained people. If we dismissed them immediately we would lose the ingenuity that comes from baby steps that are made from ideas to solutions.


----------



## VentureForth

rrdude said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> They say that the Auto Train can run up to 50 cars. I've never counted more than around 36, but obviously I don't count them every day. If this is the case, are there really 28 (14 x 2) coaches/sleepers/car carriers "laying around" Sanford or Lorton?
> 
> 
> 
> VF, I "think" CSX's 50 car limit includes the Auto-Racks, so I wud guess "no" there is NOT "really 28 (14 x 2) coaches/sleepers/car carriers "laying around" Sanford or Lorton?...."
Click to expand...

FoamerOBS answered the question. That's why I laid out my question. There ARE 28 cars lying around, but most (if not all) are car carriers and not sleepers/coaches.


----------



## Allypet

VentureForth said:


> One final point back on the topic of this thread. It has been mentioned that the AT has the most number of repeat customers than any other train in the LD system. You don't muck around with repeat customers by increasing their prices and decreasing their services. The most prolific AT rider that I'm aware of is AlanB and he's been unusually quiet. Would HE continue to take the AT as often as he has with these changes?


Last year I took the AT a total of 6 times. That's up from my usual 2 trips and I always go in a bedroom (DW preference). That is because my son started college in FL last year so that will increase my demands for travel to FL at least for the next 3 years. So as a repeat customer I will have to reserve judgment until my next AT trip, which is already booked. I do believe that with all these cuts planned for the AT, I will be paying a lot more attention to my price point. When I feel that the costs of the AT exceeds what I get in return for my money, I will drive the whole way from NY. So the less service I receive the lower my price point will become, just what that is depends on my next experience.

I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just being realistic, but I will give Amtrak a chance to keep me.


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> 1. Same place they found two coaches to add to the current consist starting in two weeks.
> 
> 2. Same place they found the money to build 120 new Viewliners - 80 of which arguable lose money (diners/baggage).


What makes you think that there's more where they came from?


----------



## VentureForth

RyanS said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Same place they found two coaches to add to the current consist starting in two weeks.
> 
> 2. Same place they found the money to build 120 new Viewliners - 80 of which arguable lose money (diners/baggage).
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think that there's more where they came from?
Click to expand...

What makes you think they had those they got (before they got them)?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

VentureForth said:


> I would like to reiterate...I don't want Slumbercoaches, and I don't want Sectionals. I would like to see _existing_ coaches phased out and replaced with refurbished coaches that incorporate some sort of high capacity sleeping arrangement. My mentioning of Slumbers and Sectionals was meant as a "for instance". I appreciate the aesthetics of a good consist, and reusing stock that's not been in inventory for decades tacked onto a Superliner consist is my first idea of ugly.I appreciate GML's number crunching... I wonder if they did that sort of thing when they purchased all those new Viewliners.So - what are cheaper alternatives that could raise the cost of a ticket (because a customer is willing to pay more for comfort) without losing existing customers and honestly without having to add new cars?And I would like to get an answer to this - They say that the Auto Train can run up to 50 cars. I've never counted more than around 36, but obviously I don't count them every day. If this is the case, are there really 28 (14 x 2) coaches/sleepers/car carriers "laying around" Sanford or Lorton?One final point back on the topic of this thread. It has been mentioned that the AT has the most number of repeat customers than any other train in the LD system. You don't muck around with repeat customers by increasing their prices and decreasing their services. The most prolific AT rider that I'm aware of is AlanB and he's been unusually quiet. Would HE continue to take the AT as often as he has with these changes?


That is the highest capacity possible lay flat option available- a sectional sleeper. A lay flat chair system would cut capacity to below that of a sleeper, I'm quite sure, by about 25%. And the conversion I was talking about was building sectionals into coach cars. I answered your question quite thoroughly. It would lower the trains capacity by 24 passengers, while it might hold the revenue at a level barely high enough to cover the investment, and then again it might not even cover the investment. Regardless of whether I had the funding for it or not, if I would not elect to do it if I was the one making the decisions.



VentureForth said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Where do the coaches come from for conversion?2. Where does the money to do those conversions come from?3. Is that the best use of that money and "found" coaches, or would it be better served going towards increasing capacity (and therefore revenue potential)?
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Same place they found two coaches to add to the current consist starting in two weeks.2. Same place they found the money to build 120 new Viewliners - 80 of which arguable lose money (diners/baggage).3. Never said it was. My idea was simply a way to generate conversation about how to KEEP AT passengers rather than lose them.Initial ideas are rarely perfect. Each idea produces pros and cons that then generate new ideas. Eventually, a workable solution is discovered and implemented. Even that final solution is rarely perfect, but rather a compromise of need, logistics, performance and effectiveness.In my business, there are stupid, nitwitted ideas all the time - and some from very experienced, highly trained people. If we dismissed them immediately we would lose the ingenuity that comes from baby steps that are made from ideas to solutions.
Click to expand...

The money for investing in the viewliners was done on the basis that all 125 cars will pay for themselves. The diners and baggage cars will pay for themselves because they are currently spending more money band aiding these relics back onto the road every two or three years then the replacements cost. The sleepers and bag dorms will add capacity thus increasing revenue. I won't qualify all the other nonsense from previous amtrak management teams, but standing here with an MBA I am telling you this team is managing amtrak very well.


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Same place they found two coaches to add to the current consist starting in two weeks.
> 
> 2. Same place they found the money to build 120 new Viewliners - 80 of which arguable lose money (diners/baggage).
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think that there's more where they came from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What makes you think they had those they got (before they got them)?
Click to expand...

This is an absurd line of reasoning.
Since they found two cars, I say they should find 7,437 more cars. That'll give them enough to run twice daily service on every line. Since they have money to buy Viewliners, they should just go to that same source and get 4.235 Billion Dollars. That'll pay for all of the costs to run the new trains, with enough left over for a half dozen silk flowers.

It'll totally work, right?

Edit to add: Oh, they should also find a pony while they're there. I've always wanted a pony.


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## andersone

I think we need to play nice in the sandbox boys and girls,,, nothing on this board should make us speak ill of our brothers in sisters in the love of AT. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with folks, lets be civil. If i want drama in my life, I can call my daughters.*  *


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## rrdude

andersone said:


> I think we need to play nice in the sandbox boys and girls,,, nothing on this board should make us speak ill of our brothers in sisters in the love of AT. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with folks, lets be civil. If i want drama in my life, I can call my daughters.*  *


Other Posters kno, I just love to read the drama that comes organically, so I don't mind at all.


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## Nathanael

FormerOBS said:


> On the Auto Train, all onboard service attendants are qualified to work all positions with one exception: Chef. Even so, many are qualified for Chef as well. Those who work the Lead Service Attendant (LSA) positions in the sleeper lounges on the five crews will continue in their positions until the jobs (and the lounge cars) are abolished. This will happen around the time that all jobs go up for semiannual re-bid. All will bid on the jobs they want on the crews they prefer, and the person with the highest seniority gets the job he/she wants. Since there won't be so many lounge LSA jobs, those who are displaced will get their second, third, fourth, etc. choices. Ultimately, some will end up on the extra board. I don't know whether they will stay on the board, possibly working less often, or if they will be furloughed. Until recently, the crew size has been adjusted when the passenger count goes over a certain number. Crews have been told from now on there will be* no increase in crew size, no matter what the passenger count. *


Sounds like they're trying to shut down the Auto Train. Maybe they'll succeed.

Understaffing is just stupid.


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## neroden

oldtimer said:


> Training takes people away from production, so it is highly discouraged.


This is a particularly stupid mistake which has been made by the majority of American companies. It's part of the reason why all American business is going down the drain. Competent managers know better than this.


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## neroden

It really does sound to me like the plan is to kill the Auto Train entirely.

Dining car service has just been cut back to frustration-inducing levels for no particularly good reason (mindless "fewer employees" mantra). Management has stated that they will make sure that short-staffing continues, so that passengers will remain annoyed and angry about the short-staffing. Lounge cars are now being cut back to frustration-inducing levels as well.

Well, if the *goal* was to *reduce ridership* and *reduce revenues*, good work Amtrak.

That way Amtrak can claim "see, the Auto Train can't be made profitable", and shut it down entirely. That would save a lot of money. It would eliminate the cost of operating Lorton and Sanford stations, allow Amtrak to sell the autoracks, and allow the Superliners to be transferred to beef up the Western fleet.

If you're trying to do this, it makes sense to attempt to squeeze out maximum gross revenue during the run-down period when you're dismantling the train -- hence, lay on the coaches.

It's worth noting that an accounting change last year or the year before massively increased the costs allocated to the Auto Train, changing it from showing a profit to showing a large loss. This may be indicative of Amtrak's plan: disliked service gets disfavorable accounting.

Hey, it may even be a reasonable corporate strategy for Amtrak to sabotage and shut down the Auto Train. It has a particularly high cost structure and is hamstrung by CSX's 50-car limit. It is an easy target for those who claim that Amtrak is for the elite, and it's also very much not "green" to haul automobiles from Virginia to Florida and back. It doesn't fit with the corporate "mission", if you will. And the Superliner shortage, combined with the lack of likelihood of a new order of bilevel sleepers, means that it becomes tempting to shut down one route to redistribute its rolling stock.

We've been talking about the rise in train travel being due to the decline in desirability of auto travel, and the Auto Train looks odd-man-out in this regard. Auto Train sleeper ticket prices are actually kind of low compared to regular Superliner sleeper prices, already -- judging by picking a random date. Maybe in the long term the Auto Train doesn't make sense and the equipment should be used on regular trains.

I don't think this is a good idea, but I'm throwing this out there for the sake of contrarianism.

The defining reason why I think it's a bad idea is that frustration with the Auto Train will translate to a bad reputation for *all* Amtrak trains; I simply don't believe in this kind of "slow shutdown".


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## VentureForth

Green Maned Lion said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to reiterate...I don't want Slumbercoaches, and I don't want Sectionals. I would like to see _existing_ coaches phased out and replaced with refurbished coaches that incorporate some sort of high capacity sleeping arrangement. My mentioning of Slumbers and Sectionals was meant as a "for instance". I appreciate the aesthetics of a good consist, and reusing stock that's not been in inventory for decades tacked onto a Superliner consist is my first idea of ugly.I appreciate GML's number crunching... I wonder if they did that sort of thing when they purchased all those new Viewliners.So - what are cheaper alternatives that could raise the cost of a ticket (because a customer is willing to pay more for comfort) without losing existing customers and honestly without having to add new cars?And I would like to get an answer to this - They say that the Auto Train can run up to 50 cars. I've never counted more than around 36, but obviously I don't count them every day. If this is the case, are there really 28 (14 x 2) coaches/sleepers/car carriers "laying around" Sanford or Lorton?One final point back on the topic of this thread. It has been mentioned that the AT has the most number of repeat customers than any other train in the LD system. You don't muck around with repeat customers by increasing their prices and decreasing their services. The most prolific AT rider that I'm aware of is AlanB and he's been unusually quiet. Would HE continue to take the AT as often as he has with these changes?
> 
> 
> 
> That is the highest capacity possible lay flat option available- a sectional sleeper. A lay flat chair system would cut capacity to below that of a sleeper, I'm quite sure, by about 25%. And the conversion I was talking about was building sectionals into coach cars. I answered your question quite thoroughly. It would lower the trains capacity by 24 passengers, while it might hold the revenue at a level barely high enough to cover the investment, and then again it might not even cover the investment. Regardless of whether I had the funding for it or not, if I would not elect to do it if I was the one making the decisions.
Click to expand...

 I understand that. I was responding to FoamerOBS who told me to stop talking about using equipment we owned, which is NOT what I was doing. My _suggestion_ was simply what you just restated. Refurbish exsiting coaches to a slumbercoach-LIKE solution.

I get your point on the numbers. I really do. The problem is that it is fiscally painful to go through a refurbishment process that would reduce capacity in _hopes_ of raising revenue.

My only hope in offering the nitwitted idea to begin with was to find a way, perhaps or perhaps not, of increasing revenue by doing the opposite of what they are doing now, which is cutting costs that could potentially reduce revenue and harm ridership. I would argue that most people riding in coach would rather be laying flat. And I'm also guessing that those folks would pay a little more than coach to do so (as opposed to a lot more which is offered now).

So, riddle me this.

1) What is the maximum revenue of a sleeper car

2) What is the maximum revenue of a coach car

3) What is the cost to feed maximum passengers in a sleeper car

4) What is the cost to feed maximum passengers in a coach car

5) What is overall ridership, by % capacity of both coach and sleeper?

If coach doesn't make as much money as sleeper, how about we just get rid of coach class all together? Of course that is a ridiculous statement, but if sleepers generate more revenue inspite of their commissary costs, why not increase the number of sleepers rather than coaches (obviously the availablity and cost not withstanding)?


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## Paulus

neroden said:


> It's worth noting that an accounting change last year or the year before massively increased the costs allocated to the Auto Train, changing it from showing a profit to showing a large loss. This may be indicative of Amtrak's plan: disliked service gets disfavorable accounting.


The Auto Train has never made a profit under full accounting. Costs jumped between 2010 and 2011, but that was not unique to the Auto Train (though it probably had the largest percentage jump). Aside from the new calculation method being introduced around that time, a new labor contract went into force in 2010 (as I recall) and Amtrak's costs are predominately labor ones, especially on the long distance trains.


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## jis

Upon reading some the discussion here this is the image that passes through my mind....


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## rrdude

neroden said:


> ".......And it's also very much not "green" to haul automobiles from Virginia to Florida and back. It doesn't fit with the corporate "mission", if you will.


Unless you are mocking Amtrak, carrying those autos on Amtrak is about one of THEE greenest thing that Amtrak does, aside from taking all the REGULAR pax off the roads or fuel-guzzeling aircraft.

GOOGLISH IT!


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Upon reading some the discussion here this is the image that passes through my mind....


As usual jis nails it!  (said by one of the Initial "Chicken Littles" on this thread! ^_^ )


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## Green Maned Lion

VentureForth said:


> So, riddle me this. 1) What is the maximum revenue of a sleeper car2) What is the maximum revenue of a coach car3) What is the cost to feed maximum passengers in a sleeper car4) What is the cost to feed maximum passengers in a coach car5) What is overall ridership, by % capacity of both coach and sleeper? If coach doesn't make as much money as sleeper, how about we just get rid of coach class all together? Of course that is a ridiculous statement, but if sleepers generate more revenue inspite of their commissary costs, why not increase the number of sleepers rather than coaches (obviously the availablity and cost not withstanding)?


Outside the auto train it is impossible to answer most of those questions, and the numbers given would be irrelevant anyway. For example, we could generate the maximum revenue theoretically possible on the LSL. No AGR riders, each rider being charged highest bucket and riding just one stop. Not only would that cut down on meals being served, but it would explode revenue because there is a 'intiation of service' amount built into the fare formula.

Realistically, the sleepers do provide a higher revenue per passenger, obviously, and I think for the most part a higher revenue per car. I don't know if it produces a higher revenue vs expense numbers, and Amtraks accounting is extremely hard to follow in a lot of cases. It has historically been more about obfuscation of costs then about actual reasonable expensing, for both good and bad reasons.


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## afigg

jis said:


> Upon reading some the discussion here this is the image that passes through my mind....


+1.


----------



## the whistler

Green Maned Lion said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, riddle me this. 1) What is the maximum revenue of a sleeper car2) What is the maximum revenue of a coach car3) What is the cost to feed maximum passengers in a sleeper car4) What is the cost to feed maximum passengers in a coach car5) What is overall ridership, by % capacity of both coach and sleeper? If coach doesn't make as much money as sleeper, how about we just get rid of coach class all together? Of course that is a ridiculous statement, but if sleepers generate more revenue inspite of their commissary costs, why not increase the number of sleepers rather than coaches (obviously the availablity and cost not withstanding)?
> 
> 
> 
> Outside the auto train it is impossible to answer most of those questions, and the numbers given would be irrelevant anyway. For example, we could generate the maximum revenue theoretically possible on the LSL. No AGR riders, each rider being charged highest bucket and riding just one stop. Not only would that cut down on meals being served, but it would explode revenue because there is a 'intiation of service' amount built into the fare formula.
> 
> Realistically, the sleepers do provide a higher revenue per passenger, obviously, and I think for the most part a higher revenue per car. I don't know if it produces a higher revenue vs expense numbers, and Amtraks accounting is extremely hard to follow in a lot of cases. It has historically been more about obfuscation of costs then about actual reasonable expensing, for both good and bad reasons.
Click to expand...

Just be aware that AGR ticketed riders do contribute revenue. All of the points that you receive on purchases are paid for by the merchants that offer them. Amtrak doesn't give the points away free but sells them to merchants for 3 cents per point or more... I would say that by accepting points for fares, Amtrak is getting at least a medium bucket (if not high bucket) fare paid for in advance to boot. The only way to cut the food costs is perhaps by bidding them out to food service companies. Years back the Santa Fe Chief had onboard food service provided by the Fred Harvey company. By privatizing the dining cars, the costs of operating them may go down. It might be worth a try.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I'm aware of how credit rewards systems work. I take credit cards and pay those fees. I don't know how close to retail amtrak gets paid, though, I remember reading its a special low fare.


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## dlagrua

Green Maned Lion said:


> I'm aware of how credit rewards systems work. I take credit cards and pay those fees. I don't know how close to retail amtrak gets paid, though, I remember reading its a special low fare.


A 2 zone trip one way trip in a bedroom is 40,000 points

Assuming merchant pays only .02 per point (that is on the low side) Amtrak sold the trip for $800.00.

A 2 zone one way trip in a roomette is 25,000 points or $500 using the same formula.

Those prices are at or near high bucket.

I believe that point trips greatly contribute to Amtrak's bottom line.


----------



## jis

dlagrua said:


> A 2 zone one way trip in a roomette is 25,000 points or $500 using the same formula.
> 
> Those prices are at or near high bucket.


The AGR site somehow thinks that 2 zone roomette reward is only 20,000 points.


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## Green Maned Lion

I currently take cards using a service that places my percentage at NQT 2.75 percent. So I pay a flat 2.75% for an AGR card or other points carrying card. So between the general processing center taking its cut, the credit card company taking its cut, and AGR taking its cut, there is an available maximum of 2.75 cents per point. Since my FQT rate is 1.5%, I'd assume Amtrak is getting the balance, or $0.0125 per point. I don't pay a batch, monthly or other fees, unless I have to do a manual capture, in which case I pay a 50¢ manual capture fee, plus .75% more.

So Amtrak is probably getting something like 1.25%. I know that a lot of people pay higher than me for their credit card transactions- a friend of mine was average 6% when he included his monthly, batch, transaction, and general bullish*t fees. Those kinds of numbers don't go to Amtrak, they go to the card processor generally, mostly because the person who signed the credit agreement didn't know how to negotiate, or more likely, didn't even bother reading the fine print that says they can hike your rates whenever they darned well please.

And no, its not because I'm a large business. Its because I am the cheap Jew I was raised to be when running my business- and damned proud of it, too.


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## jis

Maybe GML would know about this. How would an outfit like Amtrak report the AGR points related financial account? Clearly in cash account they accrue the money when they get it from the party that they sold the points to. But would they not have to report a liability corresponding to that amount until they have actually delivered the service to the customers who uses those points to actually get a ticket and use it? Or is there some way of avoiding that without running afoul of the financial reporting rules? At what point would they be able to write off the liability? Seems like an accounting nightmare. I guess there would be a similar issue with all these vouchers that they issue too? Just curious. I guess these are all neat schemes for beefing up ones cash flow while mucking up the financial account? Or am I totally confused - which BTW is quite possible.


----------



## rrdude

Green Maned Lion said:


> I currently take cards using a service that places my percentage at NQT 2.75 percent. So I pay a flat 2.75% for an AGR card or other points carrying card. So between the general processing center taking its cut, the credit card company taking its cut, and AGR taking its cut, there is an available maximum of 2.75 cents per point. Since my FQT rate is 1.5%, I'd assume Amtrak is getting the balance, or $0.0125 per point. I don't pay a batch, monthly or other fees, unless I have to do a manual capture, in which case I pay a 50¢ manual capture fee, plus .75% more.
> 
> So Amtrak is probably getting something like 1.25%. I know that a lot of people pay higher than me for their credit card transactions- a friend of mine was average 6% when he included his monthly, batch, transaction, and general bullish*t fees. Those kinds of numbers don't go to Amtrak, they go to the card processor generally, mostly because the person who signed the credit agreement didn't know how to negotiate, or more likely, didn't even bother reading the fine print that says they can hike your rates whenever they darned well please.
> 
> And no, its not because I'm a large business. Its because I am the cheap Jew I was raised to be when running my business- and damned proud of it, too.


LIKE.

GML, I luv ya man!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

jis said:


> Maybe GML would know about this. How would an outfit like Amtrak report the AGR points related financial account? Clearly in cash account they accrue the money when they get it from the party that they sold the points to. But would they not have to report a liability corresponding to that amount until they have actually delivered the service to the customers who uses those points to actually get a ticket and use it? Or is there some way of avoiding that without running afoul of the financial reporting rules? At what point would they be able to write off the liability? Seems like an accounting nightmare. I guess there would be a similar issue with all these vouchers that they issue too? Just curious. I guess these are all neat schemes for beefing up ones cash flow while mucking up the financial account? Or am I totally confused - which BTW is quite possible.


It's not really an accounting nightmare. Amtrak has a cash equivalency rate for the point (if it's an average 1.25 cents a point it would be recorded as such), and it's an accounts payable to the customer who holds the points, to be applied to the income accounts for the specific services used when they are redeemed. You can't avoid reporting it since it is an existing debt. A certain amount of it gets written off each year, I'd assume, based both on expiring points for non card members, and the fact that a whole world of people never use credit card accrued points.
When it comes to accounting tricks, I can spot them, but I'm not well versed in implementing them since, and I say this in all honesty, I don't use them.


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## dlagrua

The way I view AGR points is that they are an extra incentive that merchants offer ( and pay Amtrak) to entice purchases from their shopping portal. I do not believe that the seller Chase Credit Card processing fee figures into it or is part of it. When you have a problem you contact Amtrak AGR not Chase so I believe that Amtrak is the administrator that runs the show charging the merchants directly.. Perhaps the points do cost merchants only .0125 each. I find it hard to believe that its that low but it could be. Even when there is a sale Amtrak charges us about .02 per point.


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## Green Maned Lion

I'm talking about the credit card, I don't use Amtraks portal. I don't think it would be useful for what i sell anyway.


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## Nathanael

Paulus said:


> The Auto Train has never made a profit under full accounting. Costs jumped between 2010 and 2011, but that was not unique to the Auto Train


Eh, pretty much was. Other trains saw a mishmash of fluctuations due to the accounting, some up some down. There was a definite jump on everything due to the G.W. Bush-ordered raises, yes. The AT was coming closer and closer to breakeven each year...


> (though it probably had the largest percentage jump)


The AT's allocated costs roughly *doubled*, IIRC. That's not due to labor contracts, that's got to be allocation procedure.



> Aside from the new calculation method being introduced around that time, a new labor contract went into force in 2010 (as I recall) and Amtrak's costs are predominately labor ones, especially on the long distance trains.


----------



## Garrett - AT Passenger

I can't believe Amtrak is taking the little amenities away. It's what sets the Auto Train apart. It beats flying. The Auto Train is a wonderful experience. Have taken it many many times - Sleeper class and coach. The great thing about the wine and cheese tasting is that your _vacation starts as soon as you get on the train_. Laughter, meeting new people, joking with the staff. It's a social hour for those who want to be social. Judging by the crowded lounge cars, a lot of people enjoy being social. To expect one lounge car to accommodate the whole train is crazy. The free wine at dinner in sleeper class is a very nice touch. Judging from my experience most passengers take advantage of a glass or two of wine with dinner. If necessary, put a surcharge if you want to participate in the wine and cheese reception and wine with dinner. Considering driving again.


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## Allypet

I asked a friend in Amtrak about the coffee machines on the AT. He told me that the fresh fruit is scheduled to be discontinued when the current supplies run out, the small water bottles in the sleeper rooms are in danger of being cut, but the coffee machines in the sleepers are safe for now.


----------



## Mark M.

I've been riding the Autotrain since before Amtrak was running it. First rode it in the 70's at some point and for a number of years under the Autotrain Corporation. Now THEY had a lounge car. Full dome with a entertainer on keyboard or guitar.  I've enjoyed the couple times the last few trips in 2013 when the sleeper lounge was one of the older cars. I know the attendant didn't get much business on the lower level but I love the windows going from down at waist level and wrapping into the ceiling. Great views.

I (now in my early 50's) ride it aprox 3-4 round trips per year. I moved from near Lorton VA to FL a couple years ago so the reasons for the trips have changed but I still use it regularly.

For about the last 4 years I've switched from coach to roomettes. Primarily because the single coach rider now longer has much chance of an empty seat beside them. I have considered just buying two coach seats too. I'm not big, I just don't like cuddling up with strangers.

My folks (in their mid 70's) are now snow birds & do one round trip per year.

I will miss the sleeper lounge for the community, sense of adventure, and ability to change position. My folks feel the same. We'd play board games or cards when the movie wasn't being played at deafening levels. For my folks a greater distance to the lounge (likely full anyway) will not be an option as walking on the train is motion is difficult for them. Even with the coach and dining being closer they'd pick a time when the train was moving slowly to move whenever possible. I enjoyed the reception but it's not a big deal to me.

As for chatter about a fourth dinner seating, I find this hard to believe. Two of my last four trips I've been told the train was sold out, but that there would be no 9:00 seating. Two of the trips I *was* allowed to make a 9:00 seating reservation then announcements were made underway that those with a 9:00 seating would have to dine at 7:00. In those cases after eating at 7:00, a 9:00 announcement was then made anyway. It seemed like it was just an attempt to reduce the number of seatings. I assumed due to staff wanting to knock off earlier. Might be wrong, but this is the impression it gives. Not enough to sour me on the Auto Train overall but it can appear to a traveler as either deception or ineptitude. General attitude of dining staff has gone downhill over time, with a couple notable pleasant exceptions. Room attendants have been universally pleasant. Food quality almost always very good at least.

With the longer distance to walk for sleepers to dining, I think they are going to get a LOT more requests for dinner service to the sleeper accommodations. My folks who got the notice about the cutback have already discussed this.

Neither can get into an upper bunk. They've done the roomette with one person hanging out in the sleeper lounge much of the night. They did the bedroom this trip and hoped both could sleep in the double, but that wasn't good / roomy enough for them due to leg pain issues. etc. So even then one ended up in the lounge. They will really miss the lounge. They may try getting two roomettes in the future.


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## guest_nj_2

Just rode the southbound (off-peak direction) AT.

A few observations:

- The lounge car was almost empty the entire trip.

There hasn't been any discernible attempts of coach passengers to "overtake"

the lounge that previously "belonged" to sleeper passengers only

- The fifth coach car (now accessible from the sleeper section where I rode) was totally empty.

I guess they carried it empty to utilize on the northbound (peak) direction.

- The lack of china tableware and paper tablecloths were hardly noticeable.

Definitely doesn't look like this should sway peoples' decision whether to ride AT or not.

What was very noticeable, however, was the MARKED DECLINE IN THE QUALITY OF FOOD.

The portions was smaller than before, and whether lying on china plate or not, the

Chicken Provence was terrible. Never had the AT [sleeper dining car] meal that bad in the past.

Unlike china plates, mediocre food *MAY* alter peoples' decisions to ride AT, as the food is the

major part of the whole AT experience (even harder to justify paying steep sleeper fares without

a decent food)..


----------



## Barry Williams

My issue with the changes are, we were not notified until after the reservation was made.

My trip is in July, we paid for our reservation March 23rd and was then emailed on 3/25 about the changes to sleeper car amenities.

I consider all factors when checking rates for the train over flying and renting a car when traveling to Florida.

Part of the charm of the Auto Train are the very things they are targeting to remove.

I'm not a drinker so for me I don't mind the wine one way or another, but I've been bringing my children on the AT and have now graduated to bringing my grandchildren. We've met many good people over the years in the lounge, the children are settled down for bed with the evening movies and it gives us a place to go to to get out of the room.

I was surprised to hear about upcoming changes to the menu, this was not included in the 3/25 email.

Way to screw up a good thing Amtrak, greed never results in anything good.


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## Allypet

I posted this on another thread, but Since it is about the AT I think it bears reposting here. Below are messages I received from someone in Amtrak about the AT cuts. I removed all reference to this person. I take this to mean this is only the beginning of cuts, and things will get worse before they will get better, and the fact that they are so over working the crew will also have a chilling effect on service. I ride the AT very often, so it hits close to home for me.

"I notice that the people who are most certain that this new plan will work, are mostly located far from A-T's route and probably have never ridden the train and probably never will. 90 min. per seating in the diner is a ludicrous plan, created by office-dwellers who have never worked on board. It may become possible when salads are eliminated., which will happen soon when the job of the guy who makes the salads is eliminated (probably about a month from now, when jobs go up for re-bid). Right now, veterans are looking at transfer options, possibly quitting altogether, retiring, or other options. Diner crews give up their own dinner break and STILL can't keep the 4 dinner seatings on time. The one lounge attendant is often overwhelmed. People who don't know the job will blame the O.B.S. crews, but the fault lies with managers who are TOTALLY uninvolved in the day to day implementation of their bogus plan. I repeat, NO experience O.B.S. personnel were involved in formulating this plan, which has more holes than a sieve. As usual, the onboard service people are making the best of the situation and keeping it from getting as bad as it otherwise could get. I've never seen morale this low."

"So far the coffee is safe. Free water may be a future casualty. ALL fruit (bananas, apples, oranges) is supposed to be discontinued when current supplies run out"


----------



## Guest - me

Another VERY disappointed person here. Our family did enjoy the wine, the sleeper lounge, the reception, the better food, the silver ware, etc. All of these things added to the experience and helped me justify the costs over flying or driving.

I booked for Oct/Nov 2014 before these changes were announced/rumored and am not happy at all. I will not cancel my AT since I'd get charged a cancellation fee anyway ... But we are not booking the train for our recently added summer vacation and won't AT again unless the prices come down to support the decreased value. When I booked our fall trip, it was more than last year but I factored in the EXPERIENCE and booked. I won't be able to do this again.

My only hope is that Amtrak will come to its senses by October.


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## Ryan

I'm sure Amtrak will be happy to sell the room you're not booking to someone that is willing to pay for it.


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## SarahZ

Barry Williams said:


> Way to screw up a good thing Amtrak, greed never results in anything good.


I'd hardly chalk it up to "greed". It's not like Amtrak is even close to turning a profit.


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## Anderson

Looking at the February MPR, the Auto Train was running at over 70% of capacity. I suspect this played at least some role in the decision to switch out the second cafe for an additional coach.


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## afigg

Anderson said:


> Looking at the February MPR, the Auto Train was running at over 70% of capacity. I suspect this played at least some role in the decision to switch out the second cafe for an additional coach.


Don't forget that the AT was running with the additional coach car in February with 19 Superliners as discussed earlier in this thread. The coming of warmer weather with the increased A/C power load triggered the cutback to 18 Superliners total and the dropping of the sleeper lounge car. I should calculate the total theoretical capacity of the "new" AT consist.
The AT is one of the few bright spots in the ridership numbers for the mostly dismal February monthly report. If it ran every day in February, then it had an average of 351 passengers. Which is a lot, given the typical unbalanced traffic pattern on the AT.


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## neroden

afigg said:


> Don't forget that the AT was running with the additional coach car in February with 19 Superliners as discussed earlier in this thread. The coming of warmer weather with the increased A/C power load triggered the cutback to 18 Superliners total and the dropping of the sleeper lounge car. I should calculate the total theoretical capacity of the "new" AT consist.


Energy efficiency improvements should make a huge difference on the AT. Does Amtrak have anyone who appreciates energy efficiency?
I wasn't kidding when I said that new A/C uses roughly 3/4 the energy of 1970s-era A/C for the same results. I've looked up historical COP and SEER ratings. Unless Amtrak's Superliner I A/C units were replaced since their initial construction, they are *obsolete* and should be replaced ASAP. (The ductwork shouldn't need major alteration.)

The savings from switching to LED lighting is far larger than that.

If Amtrak is really cutting the lounge due to HEP restrictions, then someone at Amtrak doesn't understand energy efficiency -- upgrade the A/C and lighting and run several more cars. Just do it. Payback is FAST, much faster than anything else Amtrak could do.


----------



## Allypet

I originally was upset about all the cuts to the Autotrain. After speaking to many people I now realize that I should be thankful that I have been given a seat and a window for 18 hours. After getting past my selfishness about amenities I now think that Amtrak really can be maximizing revenue on the AT with very little outlay. So Amtrak here are my suggestions for the AT.

1) charge the automobile fee to motorized wheelchairs, they can't be used on the train, so why haul them for free?

2) eliminate the AAA discount. Why should you give a discount to a competing form of transportation anyway?

3) eliminate all the diner cars. Give everyone a box lunch when they board, the crew savings will be tremendous.

4) eliminate the kids and the senior discounts all together on the AT. You will make more money during the summer when families are traveling to Disney, and during the fall and spring you will make more when the snow birds migrate. A win win for everyone (except the passengers)

5) remove all free personal care items, then add them to the lounge car, you can sell towels, tissues, blankets, sheets and toilet paper.

6) remove all superliners cars from the route. Replace them with Amcoach I 84-seat coach cars, you can get at least an extra 10 paying passengers per car!


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Allypet said:


> 2) eliminate the AAA discount. Why should you give a discount to a competing form of transportation anyway?


While I can't help but note just a wee touch of sarcasm in your post, I actually think this makes sense, as AAA does a lot of advocacy work.

From wordiQ.com:



> *Current operations:*
> 
> The name AAA refers to a national consortium of numerous independent automobile clubs. Members belong to an individual club (such as AAA Texas or Auto Club South, for example) and the clubs in turn own AAA. The member clubs have arranged a reciprocal service system so that members of any participating club are able to receive member services from any other affiliate club. Member dues finance all club services as well as the operations of the national organization.
> 
> From the standpoint of the consumer, AAA clubs primarily provide emergency road services to members. Clubs also distribute road maps and travel publications. Many offices sell automobile liability insurance and provide travel agency, notary, and messenger services.
> 
> AAA still lobbies the American federal government and state governments for increased spending on roads and automobile safety, and against gas taxes and emissions regulations. They use their large membership (25% of US households) to assert that a large percentage of Americans agree with them. Their opponents argue that the AAA does not tell prospective members that it is a lobby group, and that the members join in order to have emergency towing privileges, not because they agree with the political positions of the organization, and that the AAA exploits their members' ignorance.


----------



## andersone

Au contrare to the comment about AAA - My local agent Judy is very Amtrak savvy and I use them for all my trips,,,, Amtrak included


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget that the AT was running with the additional coach car in February with 19 Superliners as discussed earlier in this thread. The coming of warmer weather with the increased A/C power load triggered the cutback to 18 Superliners total and the dropping of the sleeper lounge car. I should calculate the total theoretical capacity of the "new" AT consist.
> 
> 
> 
> Energy efficiency improvements should make a huge difference on the AT. Does Amtrak have anyone who appreciates energy efficiency?
> I wasn't kidding when I said that new A/C uses roughly 3/4 the energy of 1970s-era A/C for the same results. I've looked up historical COP and SEER ratings. Unless Amtrak's Superliner I A/C units were replaced since their initial construction, they are *obsolete* and should be replaced ASAP. (The ductwork shouldn't need major alteration.)
> 
> The savings from switching to LED lighting is far larger than that.
> 
> If Amtrak is really cutting the lounge due to HEP restrictions, then someone at Amtrak doesn't understand energy efficiency -- upgrade the A/C and lighting and run several more cars. Just do it. Payback is FAST, much faster than anything else Amtrak could do.
Click to expand...

Might want to consider the economic life left in the Superliners and how long it would take to cycle all of them through Beech Grove.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

AAA LOBBYS AGAINST PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. Period. End of discussion. What their agent knows is irrelevant. Anyone who claims to be a transit proponent and holds personal membership in AAA is a self defeating hypocrite. That's not an insult, it's a fact. Either come to grips with it or drop the membership.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

GML: I couldn't have said it better. :hi:

I wonder if the AAA fan even read the quote I posted before posting... :blink:


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Energy efficiency improvements should make a huge difference on the AT. Does Amtrak have anyone who appreciates energy efficiency?
> 
> I wasn't kidding when I said that new A/C uses roughly 3/4 the energy of 1970s-era A/C for the same results. I've looked up historical COP and SEER ratings. Unless Amtrak's Superliner I A/C units were replaced since their initial construction, they are *obsolete* and should be replaced ASAP. (The ductwork shouldn't need major alteration.)
> 
> The savings from switching to LED lighting is far larger than that.
> 
> If Amtrak is really cutting the lounge due to HEP restrictions, then someone at Amtrak doesn't understand energy efficiency -- upgrade the A/C and lighting and run several more cars. Just do it. Payback is FAST, much faster than anything else Amtrak could do.


The AT operates with Superliner IIs unless I'm mistaken. Amtrak has 180 active Superliner IIs on the roster. With 18 per train, the AT probably ties up around 45 Superliner IIs with reserves, maintenance, and inspection cycles. Amtrak could upgrade just the S-IIs used by the AT, but that would create a captive fleet which leads to maintenance headaches.

A mid-life extension program to to rebuild and update all 180 S-IIs would probably be a good idea, AT HEP limits or not. One million dollars per car would be a reasonable placeholder number for a major mid-life rebuild with new HVAC, LED lighting, new higher capacity pass-through power cables, replace the plumbing, major restoration of the interior.

Ok, so where does the $180 million for 180 S-IIs come from? Amtrak has requested $295 million for capital grants for the LD trains in FY2015. Since Congress rarely gives Amtrak the full amount requested, lets say Congress agrees to provide $520 million for operating subsidy and $250 million for capital for the LD trains and agrees to keep the LD funding at that level for the next 6 years. That would provide Amtrak with $1.5 billion to use for rolling stock, ADA compliance, and strategic track upgrade projects for the LD routes. Apply 2/3rds of the $1.5B in capital to rolling stock for regular overhauls, mid-life extension of the S-IIs and the down payments on orders for 150 locomotives and 300+ Superliner I replacements with 20 to 30 year RIFF loans covering the rest of the cost of the orders.

Easy, right?


----------



## minnie

So are they adding more car carriers to accommodate more passengers? More people more cars.


----------



## Paulus

minnie said:


> So are they adding more car carriers to accommodate more passengers? More people more cars.


There's a 50 car limit, so no. However, they're probably running with empty spaces on the car carriers right now.


----------



## afigg

While Amtrak is trying to cut costs on the AT, at least they are thinking about the kids! Well, from May 28 to August 28 anyway. Amtrak press release on a $39 kids fare for the AT.



> WASHINGTON – Amtrak Auto Train is offering a special one-way fare for children ages 2-12 to travel the rails this summer from May 28 – Aug. 28.
> 
> Book travel now to May 16 and the kids fare is $39 when accompanied by an adult for coach travel on the Auto Train only; no sleeper upgrades permitted. Use promotional code H246. Terms and conditions apply.


----------



## tonys96

afigg said:


> While Amtrak is trying to cut costs on the AT, at least they are thinking about the kids! Well, from May 28 to August 28 anyway. Amtrak press release on a $39 kids fare for the AT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON – Amtrak Auto Train is offering a special one-way fare for children ages 2-12 to travel the rails this summer from May 28 – Aug. 28.
> 
> Book travel now to May 16 and the kids fare is $39 when accompanied by an adult for coach travel on the Auto Train only; no sleeper upgrades permitted. Use promotional code H246. Terms and conditions apply.
Click to expand...

Lots of lost revenue there...revenue that might save jobs and/or routes.......these seats might be filled with full fare paying pax. And why is it on just this route? Shouldn't ALL routes be treated equally? No more amenity kits on CS and EB....some here said that was OK, cuz they (and the wine & Cheese) are not offered on ALL routes, so that was just peachy keen to remove them from the others....where is the OUTRAGE about this AT promo?????


----------



## SarahZ

No outrage here. Amtrak offers sales on occasion. We in the Midwest enjoy 20% off sales all the time.

I also like the heads-up. Now I know when to avoid the Auto Train.


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> No outrage here. Amtrak offers sales on occasion. We in the Midwest enjoy 20% off sales all the time.



But, will it generate more revenue for Amtrak, ensuring service continues?

Charging adult regular child's fares for teenagers children will increase revenue, yes. More revenue = more money for operating costs = service continues.


----------



## jebr

tonys96 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> No outrage here. Amtrak offers sales on occasion. We in the Midwest enjoy 20% off sales all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, will it generate more revenue for Amtrak, ensuring service continues?
> 
> Charging adult regular child's fares for teenagers children will increase revenue, yes. More revenue = more money for operating costs = service continues.
Click to expand...

Unless Amtrak believes this will bring more people on board (and more parents who are paying full fare) to offset the discounted children's fares (which are coach only and more limited with Amtrak's change in who qualifies for child's fare.)

We'll see how it plays out in the numbers.


----------



## tonys96

jebr said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> No outrage here. Amtrak offers sales on occasion. We in the Midwest enjoy 20% off sales all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, will it generate more revenue for Amtrak, ensuring service continues?
> 
> Charging adult regular child's fares for teenagers children will increase revenue, yes. More revenue = more money for operating costs = service continues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unless Amtrak believes this will bring more people on board (and more parents who are paying full fare) to offset the discounted children's fares (which are coach only and more limited with Amtrak's change in who qualifies for child's fare.)
> 
> We'll see how it plays out in the numbers.
Click to expand...

Maybe....but then why did they change the age requirement for the half price kids fares? Wouldn't your logic say that the higher age limit could attract more full fare paying adults? Others (not me) have postulated that these 12-15 year olds were taking away seats from full fare payers, seems like this sale would do the same thing.

*Please understand that I am just fine with this sale, and all others*....getting more riders is the best way to cut operating deficits, _getting more customers will always have more profit potential than cutting back on services offered_, but Amtrak seems to be a bit schizophrenic, cutting stuff here, raising fares there, then offers extremely low fares to a single group, gives free trips to another single group, etc. Just looks like they cannot decide on a single methodology of operating.

It might be said that considering the fixed costs of the AT, that putting a butt in the seat, even at a low fare, is better than the seat being empty......I do not know the AT load factor in the summer months....and more butts in seats might mean more F&B revenue, also. But in another thread about AT cutbacks, it seemed like the AT was crowded, no room in the lounge, etc. I might have misread that thread, wouldn't be the first time. But if the load factor is high, why the need to cut fares?

YMMV.


----------



## Ryan

The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.

Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.


----------



## SarahZ

RyanS said:


> The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.
> 
> Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.


This.

Sales are timed to increase business, not take a hit financially. The Midwest trains tend to see sales during the winter, when people are like, "Hell if I'm going to Chicago. F that. It's 20 degrees outside." Give them 20% off adult fares and half-price off kids, though, and they'll gladly escape Michigan for the weekend to enjoy some time at Shedd and Adler. It's better than having the kids sit in the house bored out of their minds.

For the AT, it makes sense to offer those sales in the summer, as they're smack between the busy snowbird periods in spring and fall. As Ryan said, this will help get people off the highway and onto a train.

So, in a way, it does increase revenue. If ridership increases by 40% during a 20% off sale, they've made money they wouldn't have normally made. (Remember, these people are also buying beverages and snacks, especially on the corridor trains.)


----------



## tonys96

RyanS said:


> The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.
> 
> Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.


OK.

Is there a way to see the monthly load factors somewhere?

Maybe this type of lower fares at off-peak times for kids scenario would work on other routes? Like the Eagle/Sunset in summer? The AT was +3.5% in ridership in FY 13 over FY 12, while the Eagle was down 1%, yet I have not seen any end to end sales for *anyone* on the Eagle lately.........


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.
> 
> Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.
> 
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> Sales are timed to increase business, not take a hit financially. The Midwest trains tend to see sales during the winter, when people are like, "Hell if I'm going to Chicago. F that. It's 20 degrees outside." Give them 20% off adult fares and half-price off kids, though, and they'll gladly escape Michigan for the weekend to enjoy some time at Shedd and Adler. It's better than having the kids sit in the house bored out of their minds.
> 
> For the AT, it makes sense to offer those sales in the summer, as they're smack between the busy snowbird periods in spring and fall. As Ryan said, this will help get people off the highway and onto a train.
> 
> So, in a way, it does increase revenue. If ridership increases by 40% during a 20% off sale, they've made money they wouldn't have normally made. (Remember, these people are also buying beverages and snacks, especially on the corridor trains.)
Click to expand...

Getting people off a highway is not part of Amtrak's mission, is it? I seriously doubt this will increase ridership by 40%, that is a false premise.

RE: Give them 20% off adult fares and half-price off kids, though, and they'll gladly escape Michigan for the weekend ...

I agree! But wouldn't leaving the kids fares available up to 15 y/o also do the same thing?


----------



## Allypet

I have a feeling that maybe the bookings have dropped off slightly, or the demand they though was there really isn't. They removed the sleeper lounge car to add a 5th coach car. Since this offer excludes upgrades to sleepers, it is obviously aimed at coach class and their newly add 5th car.


----------



## tonys96

Allypet said:


> I have a feeling that maybe the bookings have dropped off slightly, or the demand they though was there really isn't. They removed the sleeper lounge car to add a 5th coach car. Since this offer excludes upgrades to sleepers, it is obviously aimed at coach class and their newly add 5th car.


Agreed. Maybe it is a loss leader for hopes of future sales.


----------



## jebr

tonys96 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.
> 
> Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.
> 
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> Sales are timed to increase business, not take a hit financially. The Midwest trains tend to see sales during the winter, when people are like, "Hell if I'm going to Chicago. F that. It's 20 degrees outside." Give them 20% off adult fares and half-price off kids, though, and they'll gladly escape Michigan for the weekend to enjoy some time at Shedd and Adler. It's better than having the kids sit in the house bored out of their minds.
> 
> For the AT, it makes sense to offer those sales in the summer, as they're smack between the busy snowbird periods in spring and fall. As Ryan said, this will help get people off the highway and onto a train.
> 
> So, in a way, it does increase revenue. If ridership increases by 40% during a 20% off sale, they've made money they wouldn't have normally made. (Remember, these people are also buying beverages and snacks, especially on the corridor trains.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Getting people off a highway is not part of Amtrak's mission, is it? I seriously doubt this will increase ridership by 40%, that is a false premise.
> 
> RE: Give them 20% off adult fares and half-price off kids, though, and they'll gladly escape Michigan for the weekend ...
> 
> I agree! But wouldn't leaving the kids fares available up to 15 y/o also do the same thing?
Click to expand...

Having the children be up to 15 doesn't target specific times; it's always there. A special lets them target a specific slow ridership time. (It's also a lot easier to have a fare sale than to have policy changes every couple months or tied to specific trains.)


----------



## Allypet

In the 2012 FY PIP, I found the 2 reasons for the 50 car limit. I posted them below, and I found the idea of a pet car very interesting if they can exceed that:

Expanded Consist Size

The most significant impediment to improving ridership and revenue, along with financial performance, is the long-standing 50 car consist limit. Being able to operate trains that exceed this limit would immediately set in motion a plan to increase revenue by at least $2mm - $3mm per year, and would also allow us the opportunity to fully consider the possibility of a pet car on this train. Overcoming this situation would require successful resolution of two issues:

At any consist level above 50 cars, there is an unacceptably high risk of HEP failure during the trip. HEP power for the train comes from one locomotive, and its capacity is at risk of being overloaded if the passenger consist exceeds 16 cars. A possible option is the development of a power car, which could support the HEP capability of the existing locomotive. The challenge with this issue is the cost of the car, and whether the operation of this power car would add costs that would mitigate the revenue benefit. We are continuing to evaluate this option, and a decision will not be made until sometime in FY13.

The second issue is the ability of Amtrak to safely operate more than 50 cars as it relates to braking. Longer trains make it more difficult to send a signal to the rear cars to apply the brakes, and Amtrak’s System Road Foreman has determined that a train length over 50 cars with traditional air brakes would not be a prudent approach. Amtrak is looking at various electronic braking systems that could address this issue, and hopes to test them during FY13.


----------



## tonys96

jebr said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.
> 
> Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.
> 
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> Sales are timed to increase business, not take a hit financially. The Midwest trains tend to see sales during the winter, when people are like, "Hell if I'm going to Chicago. F that. It's 20 degrees outside." Give them 20% off adult fares and half-price off kids, though, and they'll gladly escape Michigan for the weekend to enjoy some time at Shedd and Adler. It's better than having the kids sit in the house bored out of their minds.
> 
> For the AT, it makes sense to offer those sales in the summer, as they're smack between the busy snowbird periods in spring and fall. As Ryan said, this will help get people off the highway and onto a train.
> 
> So, in a way, it does increase revenue. If ridership increases by 40% during a 20% off sale, they've made money they wouldn't have normally made. (Remember, these people are also buying beverages and snacks, especially on the corridor trains.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Getting people off a highway is not part of Amtrak's mission, is it? I seriously doubt this will increase ridership by 40%, that is a false premise.
> 
> RE: Give them 20% off adult fares and half-price off kids, though, and they'll gladly escape Michigan for the weekend ...
> 
> I agree! But wouldn't leaving the kids fares available up to 15 y/o also do the same thing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having the children be up to 15 doesn't target specific times; it's always there. A special lets them target a specific slow ridership time. (It's also a lot easier to have a fare sale than to have policy changes every couple months or tied to specific trains.)
Click to expand...

True! However, if the desired result is getting butts in the seats, why not add older teens to the sale? Or adults for that matter? Maybe buy one full fare adult, get one 50% off?


----------



## tonys96

Allypet said:


> In the 2012 FY PIP, I found the 2 reasons for the 50 car limit. I posted them below, and I found the idea of a pet car very interesting if they can exceed that:
> 
> Expanded Consist Size
> 
> The most significant impediment to improving ridership and revenue, along with financial performance, is the long-standing 50 car consist limit. Being able to operate trains that exceed this limit would immediately set in motion a plan to increase revenue by at least $2mm - $3mm per year, and would also allow us the opportunity to fully consider the possibility of a pet car on this train. Overcoming this situation would require successful resolution of two issues:
> 
> At any consist level above 50 cars, there is an unacceptably high risk of HEP failure during the trip. HEP power for the train comes from one locomotive, and its capacity is at risk of being overloaded if the passenger consist exceeds 16 cars. A possible option is the development of a power car, which could support the HEP capability of the existing locomotive. The challenge with this issue is the cost of the car, and whether the operation of this power car would add costs that would mitigate the revenue benefit. We are continuing to evaluate this option, and a decision will not be made until sometime in FY13.
> 
> The second issue is the ability of Amtrak to safely operate more than 50 cars as it relates to braking. Longer trains make it more difficult to send a signal to the rear cars to apply the brakes, and Amtrak’s System Road Foreman has determined that a train length over 50 cars with traditional air brakes would not be a prudent approach. Amtrak is looking at various electronic braking systems that could address this issue, and hopes to test them during FY13.


Interesting. FY 13 is long past, I wonder what has come of this?


----------



## jebr

tonys96 said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having the children be up to 15 doesn't target specific times; it's always there. A special lets them target a specific slow ridership time. (*It's also a lot easier to have a fare sale than to have policy changes every couple months or tied to specific trains.*)
> 
> 
> 
> True! However, if the desired result is getting butts in the seats, why not add older teens to the sale?
Click to expand...

I bolded the part of my previous post that answers your question.


----------



## SarahZ

40% was an example I used in order to illustrate my point, not a prediction.


----------



## tonys96

jebr said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having the children be up to 15 doesn't target specific times; it's always there. A special lets them target a specific slow ridership time. (*It's also a lot easier to have a fare sale than to have policy changes every couple months or tied to specific trains.*)
> 
> 
> 
> True! However, if the desired result is getting butts in the seats, why not add older teens to the sale?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I bolded the part of my previous post that answers your question.
Click to expand...

That did not answer my question, but I can see how you think that it does. And under normal operations I would agree with you.

A sale can be for anything the seller wants it to be. For instance, a sale can be for 50% off of a companion ticket, a sale can be for buy one get one free, a sale can be for pay full fare and get one free drink coupon, etc. Sales are not limited by policy statements, they are stand alone, and are variances from stated policy.

Stated policy is 50% off for kids fares, but this sale lowers that to a specific amount. The sale supersedes the stated policy

*Again, I must reiterate, I am just fine with this sale. I hope it helps fill each and every AT this summer! *

I just wonder why _this_ train at _this_ time, considering all the cuts in service/hikes in fares on the system.

The fact that it _may_ be to draw attention to the extra coach space added to the consist makes perfect sense.


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> 40% was an example I used in order to illustrate my point, not a prediction.


OK.


----------



## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.
> 
> Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.
> 
> 
> 
> OK.
> Is there a way to see the monthly load factors somewhere?
Click to expand...

Not directly.

Easier for the Auto Train, since there are only two endpoints.

You can see ridership, but it isn't broken out by direction. Since the ridership tends to be highly directional (s/b in fall, n/b in winter), what looks like 50% loads are much closer to 90% one way and 10% the other way.

Looking at other trains where there's a large number of possible station combinations, and it gets a lot more complicated.

You can look at fare buckets and get feel for them based on ticket prices, but overall it's a pretty inexact science.


----------



## jebr

tonys96 said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having the children be up to 15 doesn't target specific times; it's always there. A special lets them target a specific slow ridership time. (*It's also a lot easier to have a fare sale than to have policy changes every couple months or tied to specific trains.*)
> 
> 
> 
> True! However, if the desired result is getting butts in the seats, why not add older teens to the sale?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I bolded the part of my previous post that answers your question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That did not answer my question, but I can see how you think that it does. And under normal operations I would agree with you.
> 
> A sale can be for anything the seller wants it to be. For instance, a sale can be for 50% off of a companion ticket, a sale can be for buy one get one free, a sale can be for pay full fare and get one free drink coupon, etc. Sales are not limited by policy statements, they are stand alone, and are variances from stated policy.
> 
> Stated policy is 50% off for kids fares, but this sale lowers that to a specific amount. The sale supersedes the stated policy
> 
> *Again, I must reiterate, I am just fine with this sale. I hope it helps fill each and every AT this summer! *
> 
> I just wonder why _this_ train at _this_ time, considering all the cuts in service/hikes in fares on the system.
> 
> The fact that it _may_ be to draw attention to the extra coach space added to the consist makes perfect sense.
Click to expand...

Because, likely, of the reasons Ryan stated.

Also, I'm sorry I wasn't clearer in my original point. While both technically supersede the stated policy, it's a lot easier for Amtrak to have a fare sale than have a sale that changes the age of what Amtrak defines as "children" and give them the child rate. It's easier to understand, easier for people to see (they automatically see the discounted rate, instead of having to remember that a child is up to 15 on this route but not on others,) and easier to revert back (the price goes up instead of having to remember that kids are now only up to 12 again.) Plus, people understand a price sale and don't expect it to always be there, but they may expect a "sale change of policy" to be permanent, as it's much less common for a sale to be framed in such a way.


----------



## Anderson

tonys96 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.
> 
> Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.
> 
> 
> 
> OK.
> 
> Is there a way to see the monthly load factors somewhere?
> 
> Maybe this type of lower fares at off-peak times for kids scenario would work on other routes? Like the Eagle/Sunset in summer? The AT was +3.5% in ridership in FY 13 over FY 12, while the Eagle was down 1%, yet I have not seen any end to end sales for *anyone* on the Eagle lately.........
Click to expand...

Through February 2014, I've assumed 1000 pax/day as the rough capacity of the Auto Train (based on 500 pax/train and two trains, one each way). It's true that the number can be a bit over or under this when the train is full, but 1000/day is a good approximation.

In that vein, here's roughly what the numbers sort out to:

Aug 2011: 21,436 (69.1%)
Sep 2011: 16,968 (56.6%)
Oct 2011: 20,048 (64.7%)
Nov 2011: 21,210 (70.7%)
Dec 2011: 22,319 (72.0%)
Jan 2012: 18,135 (58.5%)
Feb 2012: 20,084 (69.3%) *29 days
Mar 2012: 25,923 (83.6%)
Apr 2012: 22,928 (76.4%)
May 2012: 21,202 (68.4%)
Jun 2012: 24,059 (80.2%)
Jul 2012: 26,067 (84.1%)
Aug 2012: 26,172 (84.4%)
Sep 2012: 15,949 (53.2%)
Oct 2012: 19,170 (61.8%)
Nov 2012: 21,177 (70.6%)
Dec 2012: 22,336 (72.1%)
Jan 2013: 21,773 (70.2%)
Feb 2013: 17,735 (63.3%)
Mar 2013: 26,590 (85.8%)
Apr 2013: 20,997 (70.0%)
May 2013: 21,439 (69.2%)
Jun 2013: 24,906 (83.0%)
Jul 2013: 26,453 (85.3%)
Aug 2013: 25,843 (83.4%)
Sep 2013: 16,855 (56.2%)
Oct 2013: 19,815 (63.9%)
Nov 2013: 20,389 (68.0%)
Dec 2013: 23,942 (77.2%)
Jan 2014: 22,375 (72.2%)
Feb 2014: 19,644 (70.2%) *Additional capacity?
Please note that this is quick-and-dirty and does not take into account cancellations. It assumes two trains per day every day, something that isn't always the case. I am going to run another calculation with cancellations taken into account as well, which should raise the load factors somewhat.


----------



## tonys96

Anderson said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The load factor isn't high both directions year round. There are slower seasons.
> 
> Summer time is "take the kids to vacation at Disney" season. Cheap kids fares get Mom and Dad (and their car) on the train and off of 95.
> 
> 
> 
> OK.
> Is there a way to see the monthly load factors somewhere?
> 
> Maybe this type of lower fares at off-peak times for kids scenario would work on other routes? Like the Eagle/Sunset in summer? The AT was +3.5% in ridership in FY 13 over FY 12, while the Eagle was down 1%, yet I have not seen any end to end sales for *anyone* on the Eagle lately.........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Through February 2014, I've assumed 1000 pax/day as the rough capacity of the Auto Train (based on 500 pax/train and two trains, one each way). It's true that the number can be a bit over or under this when the train is full, but 1000/day is a good approximation.
> In that vein, here's roughly what the numbers sort out to:
> 
> Aug 2011: 21,436 (69.1%)Sep 2011: 16,968 (56.6%)Oct 2011: 20,048 (64.7%)Nov 2011: 21,210 (70.7%)Dec 2011: 22,319 (72.0%)Jan 2012: 18,135 (58.5%)Feb 2012: 20,084 (69.3%) *29 daysMar 2012: 25,923 (83.6%)Apr 2012: 22,928 (76.4%)May 2012: 21,202 (68.4%)Jun 2012: 24,059 (80.2%)Jul 2012: 26,067 (84.1%)Aug 2012: 26,172 (84.4%)Sep 2012: 15,949 (53.2%)Oct 2012: 19,170 (61.8%)Nov 2012: 21,177 (70.6%)Dec 2012: 22,336 (72.1%)Jan 2013: 21,773 (70.2%)Feb 2013: 17,735 (63.3%)Mar 2013: 26,590 (85.8%)Apr 2013: 20,997 (70.0%)May 2013: 21,439 (69.2%)Jun 2013: 24,906 (83.0%)Jul 2013: 26,453 (85.3%)Aug 2013: 25,843 (83.4%)Sep 2013: 16,855 (56.2%)Oct 2013: 19,815 (63.9%)Nov 2013: 20,389 (68.0%)Dec 2013: 23,942 (77.2%)Jan 2014: 22,375 (72.2%)Feb 2014: 19,644 (70.2%) *Additional capacity?Please note that this is quick-and-dirty and does not take into account cancellations. It assumes two trains per day every day, something that isn't always the case. I am going to run another calculation with cancellations taken into account as well, which should raise the load factors somewhat.
Click to expand...

Excellent! Thank you so much!
Is this available for other routes? Looks like summer is indeed the busy season already. Not the slow season.

if increasing load is reason for sale, other routes with similar load factors should be in line for same type of sale. Maybe not exactly same sale, but a sale nonetheless.


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## Ryan

It's available for all of the routes, you just have to dig through the monthly reports to get them.

With respect to "slow" season, remember what I said about the directionality. Those ~70% numbers in Nov/Dec probably break down more like 100% s/b and 40% n/b.

The 80% numbers over the summer are more balanced, meaning that there's room on the train to try and entice people into filling those seats.


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## haolerider

The summer AT load factors have increased since Amtrak began focusing on college students from. FL going north to school & going after families going to DC & VA for sightseeing in the summer.


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## afigg

haolerider said:


> The summer AT load factors have increased since Amtrak began focusing on college students from. FL going north to school & going after families going to DC & VA for sightseeing in the summer.


Is the higher load factor due to college students? I would have attributed it mostly to that FL and Orlando is now a major summer destination for vacation trips, not just for winter vacations or people staying in FL for the entire winter season. And people in FL traveling north for vacation travel. The population in FL has grown so much since the original AT started, that capturing even a tiny slice of the Northeast to Florida I-95 market is enough to keep the AT close to full these days.

When I posted the press release about the $39 low fare summer season special for children (2-12), I did not expect it to generate this much, ahem, discussion. :huh: The kids are already eligible to travel at 1/2 price. Checking Amsnag, the typical adult coach fares still available on AT for June and July are $102 or $127 buckets. So the kids would be paying $51 or $63.50 under the normal 1/2 discount. A special fare for $39 for coach travel only is not that big of a savings. But it might be enough to entice some families to try the AT for coach travel, hopefully on the less filled trains, because everyone loves a sale!


----------



## tonys96

afigg said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> 
> The summer AT load factors have increased since Amtrak began focusing on college students from. FL going north to school & going after families going to DC & VA for sightseeing in the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the higher load factor due to college students? I would have attributed it mostly to that FL and Orlando is now a major summer destination for vacation trips, not just for winter vacations or people staying in FL for the entire winter season. And people in FL traveling north for vacation travel. The population in FL has grown so much since the original AT started, that capturing even a tiny slice of the Northeast to Florida I-95 market is enough to keep the AT close to full these days.
> When I posted the press release about the $39 low fare summer season special for children (2-12), I did not expect it to generate this much, ahem, discussion. :huh: The kids are already eligible to travel at 1/2 price. Checking Amsnag, the typical adult coach fares still available on AT for June and July are $102 or $127 buckets. So the kids would be paying $51 or $63.50 under the normal 1/2 discount. A special fare for $39 for coach travel only is not that big of a savings. But it might be enough to entice some families to try the AT for coach travel, hopefully on the less filled trains, because everyone loves a sale!
Click to expand...

Right.


----------



## neroden

Paulus said:


> Might want to consider the economic life left in the Superliners and how long it would take to cycle all of them through Beech Grove.


You really think the Superliners are going to be replaced any time soon?
Based on the latest reported fleet plan, the first replacements for the Superliners would arrive in 2021. The proposed delivery schedule would have Superliner Is still in service into 2023 and Superliner IIs still in service into 2025. This schedule appears to be *WILDLY OPTIMISTIC* given that no funding has been identified for it.

Energy effeciency retrofits would have very fast paybacks. In the case of LED lighting, probably within less than a year; in the case of HVAC, probably less than 5 years.

Yes, such retrofits should be done -- certainly for the IIs, and probably for the Is as well. Maybe if funding is actually identified in 2016 you might stop the rebuild projects at that point (as if that's likely).


----------



## FormerOBS

This thread has morphed into a discussion of the replacement of Superliners, and strayed away from its original subject, which was the changes in Auto Train onboard service. Meanwhile, the thread that covered a very specific parking issue at the Auto Train station has morphed into coverage of this thread's original intent. Sometimes conversations evolve that way. Nevertheless, I hope we can get both threads back on topic


----------



## Allypet

RRdude had a less than flattering review on his trip on the AT the other day on the parking for the AT thread. I think the removal of the sleeper lounge and the increased passenger load caused a lot of problems for his trip, and will cause even more during the summer. I am booked in July and I am not looking forward to it. I understand from a friend who works on the AT that what's left of the dedicated crew of the AT (that Amtrak likes to advertise) are asking for transfers because the workload, especially in the diners, is overwhelming.

I think it will get worse before it gets better.


----------



## neroden

*Sigh*. Amtrak management did stupid things which drive away business.

I've read the third or fourth "Used to take Auto Train all the time, never again" review on one train website or another now: in all cases, it's due to the complete disaster which has been made of the dining and lounge service by overcrowding it.


----------



## ohmark

Read the entire thread and am confused about what to expect on AT during a Sanford/Lorton trip later this month in sleeper. What are the actual changes we will experience from our southbound trip in 12/13? Different and/or inferior food? Same menu/food in both sleeper and coach? No more table cloth/china/silver? All plastic tableware? No comp wine at dinner? No wine tasting/cheese/crackers? Four dinner seatings at new times? No fruit/mini water bottles in sleeper? Degraded service due to more passengers with less/same crew? Anything else?


----------



## dlagrua

The dining car debacle and the resulting over crowding won't be the first hair-brain move that Amtrak has made. When you make terrible cost cutting moves like that without thinking them out, the law of diminishing returns kicks in. I hope that things get far worse so that it will bring light to a bad situation and a change back to the old system. The A/T is Amtrak's most popular train, the highest revenue producer and they've set out to ruin it.


----------



## Paulus

dlagrua said:


> The dining car debacle and the resulting over crowding won't be the first hair-brain move that Amtrak has made. When you make terrible cost cutting moves like that without thinking them out, the law of diminishing returns kicks in. I hope that things get far worse so that it will bring light to a bad situation and a change back to the old system. The A/T is Amtrak's most popular train, the highest revenue producer and they've set out to ruin it.


The Auto Train is far, far away from being Amtrak's most popular or revenue producing train. As for being a debacle, let's wait to see what the actual ridership and revenue figures come out to. I suspect that they won't bear out such proclamations.


----------



## JoeBas

Paulus said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> The dining car debacle and the resulting over crowding won't be the first hair-brain move that Amtrak has made. When you make terrible cost cutting moves like that without thinking them out, the law of diminishing returns kicks in. I hope that things get far worse so that it will bring light to a bad situation and a change back to the old system. The A/T is Amtrak's most popular train, the highest revenue producer and they've set out to ruin it.
> 
> 
> 
> The Auto Train is far, far away from being Amtrak's most popular or revenue producing train. As for being a debacle, let's wait to see what the actual ridership and revenue figures come out to. I suspect that they won't bear out such proclamations.
Click to expand...

Not for some time, at any rate, as many people have bookings already, and either don't know about the cuts or are willing to stay with the rezzies to give it a chance.

Year over year starting one year from this point is where you'll start to really be able to tell the tale.


----------



## jis

And there are others like me who have made several booking after knowing about the cuts, since my personal attitude towards them is mostly "meh".... whatever.

All else being equal, year over year is a good timeframe to get a reasonable assessment of the effects of the cuts.


----------



## neroden

ohmark said:


> Read the entire thread and am confused about what to expect on AT during a Sanford/Lorton trip later this month in sleeper. What are the actual changes we will experience from our southbound trip in 12/13?


Long, long waits for dinner and nowhere to wait. (This is the part which does tick people off. It WILL reduce ridership and revenue. There is no question about this. The losses may be masked by other causes of ridership and revenue increase, or they may not, but this is going to drive people away, as it already has done.)



> Same menu/food in both sleeper and coach? No more table cloth/china/silver? All plastic tableware? No comp wine at dinner? No wine tasting/cheese/crackers? Four dinner seatings at new times? No fruit/mini water bottles in sleeper? Degraded service due to more passengers with less/same crew?


All of the above, if I'm not mistaken, except silver. You should still have real metal flatware.


----------



## jebr

And mini water bottles in sleeper, as far as I'm aware.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> ohmark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read the entire thread and am confused about what to expect on AT during a Sanford/Lorton trip later this month in sleeper. What are the actual changes we will experience from our southbound trip in 12/13?
> 
> 
> 
> Long, long waits for dinner and nowhere to wait. (This is the part which does tick people off. It WILL reduce ridership and revenue. There is no question about this. The losses may be masked by other causes of ridership and revenue increase, or they may not, but this is going to drive people away, as it already has done.)
Click to expand...

It may drive some individuals away, but if, as some are fond of claiming, there is an excess of demand sufficient to warrant a longer train, odds are that they'll not see a net loss in ridership. Besides, Amtrak gets a bit more gross revenue per coach rider than they do for sleeper on the Auto Train, a nefarious strategy which curtails sleeper sleeper demand in favor of replacing with coach cars, with a higher capacity per car as well, is all for the better


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## VentureForth

Next they will eliminate sleepers and encourage passengers to sleep in their car.


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## Paulus

VentureForth said:


> Next they will eliminate sleepers and encourage passengers to sleep in their car.


Can't, violates FRA regulations I do believe.


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## neroden

Frankly it sounds to me like the overcrowded dining car / lounge situation is going to irritate coach passengers too.

It's probably very difficult to measure the loss of ridership from screwing up service, because there's an underlying trend of increasing ridership. But the loss of ridership from screwing up service is definitely there.


----------



## VentureForth

Paulus said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next they will eliminate sleepers and encourage passengers to sleep in their car.
> 
> 
> 
> Can't, violates FRA regulations I do believe.
Click to expand...

 T'was tongue and cheek - I'm still amazed that they run with coach class period. All passengers...end to end...overnight...


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## Ryan

It's obviously something people are willing to pay for, so why not?


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## FormerOBS

To Olympian HI and Guest_CREW-DORM#2524_*

I was misinformed about the fate of Auto Train Lounge 33101, so my comments were in error. I'm not certain whether it was ever returned to service after the Crescent City derailment, but it does still exist. My last info was that the car was in Beech Grove a couple weeks ago.


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## rrdude

To follow up on my AT trip, RT, with family. I think the word 'Cluster-Fu%#" was INVENTED for what now passes for meal service on the AT.

Gawd I have empathy for the crew. Those miserable bastards who came up with "plan" of dumping a lounge-car ought to be sent to a Siberian Re-Education camp.

Four meals in the diner, two dinner, two "breakfast". (Even though over the PA, the staff was encoraging sleeper pax to "walk to the lounge to get your breakfast, same meal......opps, strike that, lounge is full, we'll make another announcement in ten-fifteen minutes..."

So, had the chance to interact with four other travelers, three had taken AT, multiple times, one was first trip.

ALL complained of the dinning "experience". Granted, all received "The" email, so may be on the lookout, but the comments were NOT railfan oriented. The comments were, "it worked so well, generally, b4, WHY did they change it? Gobs of pax standing in ends of diner for breakfast, only to be told, "Can't wait there, we'll make an announcement..."

Then pax return to their rooms, only to hear, "This announcement is for the sleeper car passengers, the sleeper Car passengers only! There is now room in the sleeper diner please make your way to the dining car. sleeper car passengers only! So the passengers make a quick about-face and literally walk-run back to the diner. I experienced this first hand as I was almost trampled by three young kids from the room adjacent to mine....

Only to be followed moments later by another announcement over the public address system, "This announcement is for coach passengers, coach passengers only, coach passengers there is now room in the coach diner for breakfast, please make your way to the coach diner, coach passengers only..."

This PA-Battle goes on ALL MORNING.... So nice to hear....

The meals for dinner were good. Steak, chicken, veggue lasagna. Of course the LSA-Diner now needs to sell and make change for wine several times, during a dinner seating, which precludes that person from actually assisting the service attendants in the diner as much as they could.... I spoke with a SA-Diner, and he said it is not uncommon for the crew in the diner to serve their last meal and close the diner well after midnight. And of course working that late, it almost prohibits the crew from getting any kind of meal and they go to bed hungry.

I took a walk through the diner during my meal, and noticed that well over half of the salads that were on the tables seemed to of been "touched" or at least partially consumed.

There was a mixture of China and plastic-ware used during the meal service. It seems as though once all the china and flatware is used it is not cleaned during the meal service in the dishwashers in the kitchen below. It seems as though once all the China is dirty, everything reverts to plastic and four-and-one plastic utensils.

If you count the four other parties that I dined with at both dinner and breakfast, round trip, and include myself and my family, it was almost 100% that AutoTrain would NOT be an option for future travel to Florida again. How sad. Amtrak truly has "killed the goose that laid the golden egg".

Our train attendant-sleeper on the way down, Dexter, seemed very preoccupied and didn't really want to interact with us much. He got 10 bucks. Our train attendant-sleeper on the northbound run, even though we were almost 3 hours late departing, was fabulous. A young African-American female whose first name started with the letter D, just cannot recall her name right now. She has been working for Amtrak on the autotrain for about 3 1/2 years she got 20 bucks.

In general the train attendant-sleeper staff were very, very, preoccupied with bringing meals to passengers in their rooms. I have never seen that kind of traffic in the hallways with meals being delivered to rooms on any train I have ever been on before. Amtrak will have to increase the par level of white paper bags in the future, or they may run out.....


----------



## VentureForth

What if - and I'm being sorta serious here - they reverted to trolley meal service at the seats of the passengers? If they could just cart the preheated meals to the coach passenger's seats, that'd almost be like the airlines from 30 years ago. Surely they could manage that.


----------



## rrdude

Oh "how fun" SIT in your seat, aisle seat even better(!), and try to eat your steak off a small tray-table, and cut it with a plastic fork. Zero interaction with other diners, nah, not for me. I see that as an option on regionals, but not LD chair cars. Logistics and safety of food in cars/cart.... Wud take a LOT of thought to make THAT work on LD. Just MHO...


----------



## VentureForth

Hey - I know it's not a popular idea. Perhaps an option for coach passengers - just something to keep the diners less crowded. Many may prefer not to eat in the diner. There are no diners on aircraft, after all.

That being said - it would redefine the differentiation between coach and sleeper pax.


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## Ryan

Far easier to just put things back the way that the were. Don't fix what isn't broken.


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## Allypet

RRDude, A worker on the AT described to me exactly what you did. That was in mid March when they first started the cuts. I'm sad to see that after more then a month things have not gotten any better, and will most likely get worse during the busy summer season. I will withhold judgment until my trip in July.

It seems to me that Amtrak is killing themselves by a thousand cuts. It seems that over the past year they did many things to make the passenger experience worse. I feel it started with the policy change on refunds, then it moved to different levels of fares. Then it moved to reductions in on board amenities, downgrading of meals, and a general decline in service and atmosphere. I think they will feel the effects sooner rather then later.


----------



## VentureForth

RyanS said:


> Far easier to just put things back the way that the were. Don't fix what isn't broken.


 They just broke it.


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## Ryan

Yes, I get that.

And the easiest way to fix it is to put it back, not come up with some other crazy scheme that may or may not work. I said that right there in the part you quoted. Read the first sentence again.


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## Bob Dylan

I won't ride the Auto Train (the Silvers are fine for me) but based on rrdudess and others comments sounds like the "New" Diner/Lounge system is bad for the passengers and the crews! And for those paying the really High Buckets it sounds like complaints will roll in by the bushel!

The Suits @ 60 Mass need to ride this Train themselves, then have a meeting and exclude the bean counters and the incompetent so called exec that dreamed up this Cluster Flub! (This isn't about flowers,chocolate,newspapers or cranberry juice, standardized menus etc, its about customer service and employee workload on what used to a System and Train that worked! )

Less is NOT More!


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## Green Maned Lion

The auto train was always awful. Stop bringing your car to Florida. Better yet, don't go to Florida. There are lots of better places to go then Florida where you don't need a car to begin with.


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## Allypet

Sorry GML, if it wasn't for us Yankees Florida would be nothing more than the Everglades. And besides I have to use my Sunpass somewhere.


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## rrdude

Green Maned Lion said:


> The auto train was always awful. Stop bringing your car to Florida. Better yet, don't go to Florida. There are lots of better places to go then Florida where you don't need a car to begin with.


Lion, I know from your previous posts, that you aren't a fan of this "elitist" train, but facts are facts. When run correctly, the AT has done significantly better than most other LD trains on a cost-recovery issue. It was at one time, the "premier" choice for Amtrak crews to bid on, to try and get a job on. (3 on, 2 off)

Three Amtrak staffers I talked to mentioned that they are seriously considering "bidding off" their current AT job when the time comes to re-bid.

You may not like the AT, but it's (_was) _a winner with the public, and I'm not talking about the "train-fan-riding public", just Mr. & Mrs. Average John Doe and kids....

There must _*really be*_ something F-%^$^ed up at Amtrak management, if they let them ruin this former gem.


----------



## FormerOBS

Food service carts were tried on Auto Train many, many years ago and found to be impractical because of the amount of foot traffic through the cars. This would be even worse now with passenger counts approaching 600 people. The northbound train April 20-21 had about 590 passengers. There have been times recently when it has been almost impossible to move from one end of the lounge to the other due to crowding. Stainless steel flatware is used as much as possible. If the flatware cannot be cleaned and returned to the floor quickly enough, plastic knife/fork/spoon sets are used, rather than make the passenger wait. If the dishwashing machine breaks down, it's all plastic. I'm trying to stick to the facts here, without editorial comment.


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## VentureForth

That's a fine retort. I appreciate your point of view on the carts. Let's continue though, the consideration that Amtrak wants to keep dumbing down service and costs. The food would be served heated from the galley. Cutlery would be plastic. The tray tables aren't any smaller than aircraft - larger if I were to guess.

Interestingly, I can't remember the consist, but it seemed like there were 14 Superliners and only 26 car carriers one day this past weekend. I don't remember the counts, but it seemed like more than usual passenger accomodations and fewer than usual car carriers...


----------



## rrdude

If they were to "properly" do carts with heated food, I dread to think of walking from the galley (one of the three food service cars) thru all of the coaches, load it onto a cart, and _then_ walk thru the coaches. And what about the lower level of the coaches? Doing a few meals "to go" from the diner is work enuff for the TA-C, I cannot even fathom adding "Meal Service at Your seat", and having to slog the meals from the diners. IMHO, the _only way_ that would ever work, is if a convection oven or holding oven (Alto-Sham or similar) were installed on _*each coach.*_ Then you'd have a snowball's chance in Hell of making a decent effort.

Just _*as an aside*_. When we bought the EnterTRAINment Line dinner-buffet train in the early 90's, ALL of the food service was done from one car, the so-called "kitchen car" (It was a lunch-counter car in it's real life)

At first as each table car (old coaches installed with chairs and tables, we called them "Table-Cars") was called, the passengers would walk to the Kitchen-car, load up their plates, and hike back to their tables, foam plates piled high with fixins'...

Well, as you can imagine, there was a *lot *of dropped food, and stumbling passengers, trying with both hands to hold their plate, walking on a moving train, pulling open old doors that the automatic opening had _long _ago failed.

Within a month we outfitted each table-car to have it's *own* buffet, with the staff carrying the pans and chaffers from the kitchen to the table-cars. And we replaced the flimsy foam plates with real china too.

I simply can't see cart-service working with heated meals, on LD trains, without major retrofits to Superliners and/or AmCans.

Granted the tray-back "tables" are the same size or bigger than airline tray-backs. But what they serve in coach on airlines, rarely is chicken, or steak with sides of veggies, cream sauce, etc... Amtrak would also have to greatly modify the *type* of meals served if they were to try this, and I hope they don't.....


----------



## VentureForth

Oh - you're presuming that the same food would be served. I'm thinking ham sandwiches and chips.



I'm kidding. But I do see your point, and it's valid. One of the design differences between Amtrak and Japanese railcars is that the vestibule design is very poor and not condusive to carts passing through.

But I can't shake the thought of what most Japanese trains do have - trolley service with impressionable staff. That being said, in Japan, all the items on a food cart are for sale, and thus couldn't be stocked for 80 passengers per car. I believe, though, they do have warm and cold storage.

So maybe this ain't a great idea for the Autotrain. But neither is reducing food quality and eliminating a lounge car.

But for revenue purposes, I would like to see trolley service on more LD trains like the Silvers where the Cafe can run out of food and the Diners may never serve coach passengers.


----------



## rrdude

I think we can "agree to agree" that trolley service _may have_ a shot on _some _LD trains. But it would need to be cold or room-temp only (no cooking) fully disposable (Not very green) and involve ZERO add'l staff, meaning the TA-Coach, would be given an additional task. I'd also posit that _at least_ 4 revenue seats would have to be removed, to make room for trolley storage and food an supply storage...

I mean, "Marty" made it work on the Hiawatha's, 'til Amtrak nixed that, but that was obviously _*not*_ LD.... And IIRC, it was not a revenue generator, when all costs (labor, food, etc.) were included...


----------



## SarahZ

Green Maned Lion said:


> The auto train was always awful. Stop bringing your car to Florida. Better yet, don't go to Florida. There are lots of better places to go then Florida where you don't need a car to begin with.


So the Snowbirds who live there during the winter should just sell their house?  I believe some/many use the AT to get back and forth twice per year without having to drive.


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## Ryan

They should hurry up and sell it before it becomes part of the Atlantic Ocean.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Just as a reminder Lion some very successful, intellegent AUers that were originally Yankees have moved to Florida and more to come! Not mention our resident Attorney, Yoga Instructor and Native Floridian who lives in Orlando!

Of course the late comic and wit Fed Allen did say that "Florida is a wonderful place if you're an orange, an alligator or a real estate speculator! LOL


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## FormerOBS

Venture: Maybe the train was moving too fast to get an accurate count, but the Auto Train runs with 16 Superliners every day at this time of year, and at holidays like Easter and Passover, it runs full. During most of the year, the ratio of passengers to motor vehicles is usually around 2 to 1. At holiday season and in the summer, there are more families travelling, so a party of 6 or more might travel with a minivan on the carriers. In that case, it's possible that the train could carry fewer auto carriers.


----------



## neroden

Allypet said:


> RRDude, A worker on the AT described to me exactly what you did. That was in mid March when they first started the cuts. I'm sad to see that after more then a month things have not gotten any better, and will most likely get worse during the busy summer season. I will withhold judgment until my trip in July.
> 
> It seems to me that Amtrak is killing themselves by a thousand cuts. It seems that over the past year they did many things to make the passenger experience worse. I feel it started with the policy change on refunds, then it moved to different levels of fares. Then it moved to reductions in on board amenities, downgrading of meals, and a general decline in service and atmosphere. I think they will feel the effects sooner rather then later.


I'll tell you precisely when Amtrak will see the effects.

The cuts started in March on the Auto Train. Most people who take the Auto Train ride it roughly once per year, round trip. Accordingly, it will take a full year for all the repeat customers to experience the dreadful degredation of service. Starting roughly next March, the ridership and revenue numbers will be hurt a great deal as all the repeat customers vanish.

You read it here first.

The worst part of this is, *even if Amtrak management wakes up and gets a clue*, and reverses the cuts, the drop in ridership and revenue will persist for several years: minimum of three years, I'd say. Customers are once bitten, twice shy.

Even if Amtrak has the sense to reverse the cuts on, say, May 1st this year (sadly unlikely), then we will see a visible hit to ridership and revenue in March - May of 2015. That's my prediction.

Heh. The good news is, with the drops in ridership and revenue, Amtrak will probably decide sometime in late 2015 that it's running too many coaches, and take a coach off the train. Then with idle lounges and diners sitting around, someone will come up with the bright idea of adding the lounge and diner back...

Management by incompetence. Sigh.


----------



## VentureForth

neroden said:


> Heh. The good news is, with the drops in ridership and revenue, Amtrak will probably decide sometime in late 2015 that it's running too many coaches, and take a coach off the train. Then with idle lounges and diners sitting around, someone will come up with the bright idea of adding the lounge and diner back...
> 
> Management by incompetence. Sigh.


My prediction is that by the time management figures out how bad they broke it, the idle equipment will have been repurposed. Kinda like how the Sunset Limited can't start back up because the equipment that they used on that route no longer exists.


----------



## rrdude

neroden said:


> Allypet said:
> 
> 
> 
> RRDude, A worker on the AT described to me exactly what you did. That was in mid March when they first started the cuts. I'm sad to see that after more then a month things have not gotten any better, and will most likely get worse during the busy summer season. I will withhold judgment until my trip in July.
> 
> It seems to me that Amtrak is killing themselves by a thousand cuts. It seems that over the past year they did many things to make the passenger experience worse. I feel it started with the policy change on refunds, then it moved to different levels of fares. Then it moved to reductions in on board amenities, downgrading of meals, and a general decline in service and atmosphere. I think they will feel the effects sooner rather then later.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll tell you precisely when Amtrak will see the effects.
> 
> The cuts started in March on the Auto Train. Most people who take the Auto Train ride it roughly once per year, round trip. Accordingly, it will take a full year for all the repeat customers to experience the dreadful degredation of service. Starting roughly next March, the ridership and revenue numbers will be hurt a great deal as all the repeat customers vanish.
> 
> You read it here first.
> 
> The worst part of this is, *even if Amtrak management wakes up and gets a clue*, and reverses the cuts, the drop in ridership and revenue will persist for several years: minimum of three years, I'd say. Customers are once bitten, twice shy.
> 
> Even if Amtrak has the sense to reverse the cuts on, say, May 1st this year (sadly unlikely), then we will see a visible hit to ridership and revenue in March - May of 2015. That's my prediction.
> 
> Heh. The good news is, with the drops in ridership and revenue, Amtrak will probably decide sometime in late 2015 that it's running too many coaches, and take a coach off the train. Then with idle lounges and diners sitting around, someone will come up with the bright idea of adding the lounge and diner back...
> 
> Management by incompetence. Sigh.
Click to expand...

You have NO IDEA how close to accurate everything you just wrote actually is...

You know who I really "feel for", other than the poor souls on the AT (crew and pax)? The staffers at Amtrak that fought against this. They will be long gone, or reassigned by the time next year rolls around. And it will be the same idiots who came up with these lame-brain ideas, that host a bunch of "focus group panels" that cost $$$, to then announce, "New Sleeper Lounger Cars" to be added to Auto Train in June of 2015!

"Management by incompetence." Damn, if that's the case, I cudda made my career at Amtrak! And been just fine, maybe even promoted!


----------



## greatcats

Remember the Peter Principle: " The ignorant shall rise to the highest level of their incompetence. " I wrote that on the blackboard in the Crew Dispatchers office at NJ Transit years ago. Somehow the superintendent saw it and for some reason indicated his displeasure with me! I made a career out of doing things like that......... Many years later, after he was long retired and I was working at Grand Canyon, I wrote him a letter in New Jersey and he called me back - it was kind of heartwarming. Personally, I liked the man.......hehe


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I was always under the impression Kevin O'Conner is the poster child for the Peter Principle. Except he's risen well above his level of incompetence.



Allypet said:


> Sorry GML, if it wasn't for us Yankees Florida would be nothing more than the Everglades. And besides I have to use my Sunpass somewhere.


Which would make it a much nicer place. Florida wildlife is quite interesting. All the people living there in their bland little communities of rickety ticky-tacky condos and equally crummy McMansions with their communities so carefully, so diligently, so painstakingly and lovingly crafted to make life as hard as possible for anybody who is a non driver. I personally think that anybody who is of retirement age who moves down there is proving their own incompetence at making choices about living and life. I said that to my parents' faces when they told me they were thinking of moving down there.

If one is of retirement age, one should be moving to someplace with excellent transit. Not Florida.



SarahZ said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> The auto train was always awful. Stop bringing your car to Florida. Better yet, don't go to Florida. There are lots of better places to go then Florida where you don't need a car to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> So the Snowbirds who live there during the winter should just sell their house?  I believe some/many use the AT to get back and forth twice per year without having to drive.
Click to expand...

Precisely.


----------



## VentureForth

Retirees should do what they want - not what GML wants.


----------



## tonys96

VentureForth said:


> Retirees should do what they want - not what GML wants.


THIS


----------



## Bob Dylan

Let GML freeze and pay high taxes in the NE while retirees and snowbirds enjoy the warm winter and low taxes in Florida! References upon request!


----------



## rrdude

Just an update, I have received $300 in Travel Credits for Amtrak, for the disappointed and frustrating trip I took with my family, to and from Florida.


----------



## FriskyFL

jimhudson said:


> Let GML freeze and pay high taxes in the NE while retirees and snowbirds enjoy the warm winter and low taxes in Florida! References upon request!


We're hardly retirees, and most definitely enjoy the mostly beautiful weather and boundless outdoor activities that comes with living 15 min from the beach. I can look outside every morning and see palm trees in my front yard, not some post-apocalypse nightmare that is the Northeast US. ;-)


----------



## Green Maned Lion

VentureForth said:


> Retirees should do what they want - not what GML wants.


Nuh-uh. I'm king of the world and everyone should do exactly what I say. Lol.


----------



## MrFSS

VentureForth said:


> Retirees should do what they want - not what GML wants.


 I'm a retiree and I only do what my wife tells me to do, never what I want to do!


----------



## haolerider

Green Maned Lion said:


> I was always under the impression Kevin O'Conner is the poster child for the Peter Principle. Except he's risen well above his level of incompetence.
> 
> 
> 
> Allypet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry GML, if it wasn't for us Yankees Florida would be nothing more than the Everglades. And besides I have to use my Sunpass somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Which would make it a much nicer place. Florida wildlife is quite interesting. All the people living there in their bland little communities of rickety ticky-tacky condos and equally crummy McMansions with their communities so carefully, so diligently, so painstakingly and lovingly crafted to make life as hard as possible for anybody who is a non driver. I personally think that anybody who is of retirement age who moves down there is proving their own incompetence at making choices about living and life. I said that to my parents' faces when they told me they were thinking of moving down there.
> 
> If one is of retirement age, one should be moving to someplace with excellent transit. Not Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> The auto train was always awful. Stop bringing your car to Florida. Better yet, don't go to Florida. There are lots of better places to go then Florida where you don't need a car to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So the Snowbirds who live there during the winter should just sell their house?  I believe some/many use the AT to get back and forth twice per year without having to drive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Precisely.
Click to expand...

I think you have totally lost it and have allowed your opinion on people who "can't drive" to cloud your mind! Who in the world are you to tell people what they should do? No, you are not King of the World! I for one, am glad you like,living in the northeast......which is prettyfar from me!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Haolroder, I am not telling people what to do. I am voicing my opinion on what I think people should do, a power vested in me by God and affirmed by the first amendment to the US Constitution. Vested in you by the same authorities is the powers to 1) ignore what I say completely, 2) disagree with what I said to whatever extent you want, and 3) voice your own opinion on the subject.

My comment on being king of the world was a joke, hence the LOL. I'm not even king of my own domain (my wife is, however, queen).


----------



## Foremost Authority Man

I view Florida as the flat land of trailer parks, nudist camps, giant cockroaches, foreclosed housing, drunks, sink holes and old fossils! My dad retired in the St Petersburg area. The restaurants serve food that tastes like it was cooked by cheap non-English speaking, unclean, unskilled labor. There is an auto accident every couple of miles every day on alt 1. On our last trip traveling from Tampa to Orlando there were not one but two overturned cars on Rt 4. The weather is stifling in summer, the crowds at Disney unbearable, the taxes are low but that's about it. Give me the greenery and the mountains.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Stop going in the summer. Snow birds get it right 6 months down in Florida, 6 months up in Northeast.


----------



## Ryan

Now I really want to change my username to "Foremost Authority Man".


----------



## Allypet

Maybe we should retitle this thread to "Cut the Auto Train"


----------



## pennyk

Foremost Authority Man said:


> I view Florida as the flat land of trailer parks, nudist camps, giant cockroaches, foreclosed housing, drunks, sink holes and old fossils! My dad retired in the St Petersburg area. The restaurants serve food that tastes like it was cooked by cheap non-English speaking, unclean, unskilled labor. There is an auto accident every couple of miles every day on alt 1. On our last trip traveling from Tampa to Orlando there were not one but two overturned cars on Rt 4. The weather is stifling in summer, the crowds at Disney unbearable, the taxes are low but that's about it. Give me the greenery and the mountains.


Quite often, the temperature in Orlando in July and August is lower than it is in the Northeast. Floridians use air conditioners in the summer and do not go to Disney. I think the taxes need to be higher in Florida. Low taxes are not the reason I live here. I guess it is inertia, or I do not know any better. :lol: Our winter this year was pretty darn nice. Unfortunately, Spring is over and Summer has arrived.

And.... most of the bad drivers in Florida are either tourists or transplants from the Northeast.


----------



## SarahZ

RyanS said:


> Now I really want to change my username to "Foremost Authority Man".


I think you should change it to "Citation Needed".


----------



## FormerOBS

Is this about Florida, or the train that takes you there?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Considering the train that takes us there is a unique child of the state itself, would it be fair to say both?


----------



## tonys96

pennyk said:


> Foremost Authority Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I view Florida as the flat land of trailer parks, nudist camps, giant cockroaches, foreclosed housing, drunks, sink holes and old fossils! My dad retired in the St Petersburg area. The restaurants serve food that tastes like it was cooked by cheap non-English speaking, unclean, unskilled labor. There is an auto accident every couple of miles every day on alt 1. On our last trip traveling from Tampa to Orlando there were not one but two overturned cars on Rt 4. The weather is stifling in summer, the crowds at Disney unbearable, the taxes are low but that's about it. Give me the greenery and the mountains.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite often, the temperature in Orlando in July and August is lower than it is in the Northeast. Floridians use air conditioners in the summer and do not go to Disney. I think the taxes need to be higher in Florida. Low taxes are not the reason I live here. I guess it is inertia, or I do not know any better. :lol: Our winter this year was pretty darn nice. Unfortunately, Spring is over and Summer has arrived.
> 
> And.... most of the bad drivers in Florida are either tourists or transplants from the Northeast.
Click to expand...

Florida is quite nice! Not Texas, of course, but quite nice in it's own way. Lots better than what we call "the armpit of America" where they close down bridges for political payback.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Frankly if we are lucky that monstrosity won't reopen ever.


----------



## NW cannonball

Oh, snarky snarky. Actually, me, I've never wanted to visit Florida (except may be the farther Keys). For me, Tokyo or NYC is the place to be. Maybe parts of Texas of New Mexico or Arizona. Maybe even parts of California. Surely Portland or Seattle. Charleston SC was better than expected. Mumbai might be worse, but never been there.

The places I like most I'll never recommend, cause I don't want the riff-raff moving in, like they have in Florida.


----------



## rrdude

OK, back to topic, (and I'm as bad, or worse than anyone at straying...)

Consist for the trip North on the AT on April 20 was:

Coach Diner

Coach Diner

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Lounge (the "one and only")

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper Diner

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Auto Racks.......


----------



## VentureForth

When I lived in Kissimmee, I used to joke that I would run from my airconditioned apartment to my airconditioned car to my airconditioned job 9 months out of the year.



SarahZ said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I really want to change my username to "Foremost Authority Man".
> 
> 
> 
> I think you should change it to "Citation Needed".
Click to expand...

Maybe then I could change mine to "Ambiguous Stats Slinger".


----------



## Allypet

I live in the suburbs of NYC, and you can keep that! I can't wait to move to Florida! To me Florida is paradise, and became even more so when I found out the GML won't set foot there!..lol


----------



## Ryan

Allypet said:


> and became even more so when I found out the GML won't set foot there!..lol


That kind of personal attack is really uncalled for, "lol" or not.


----------



## tonys96

RyanS said:


> Allypet said:
> 
> 
> 
> and became even more so when I found out the GML won't set foot there!..lol
> 
> 
> 
> That kind of personal attack is really uncalled for, "lol" or not.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you can tell that to EVERYONE, not just some folks? How about those who admit that they attack folks, if they personally believe they 'deserve' it? Just sayin'.......lol


----------



## NW cannonball

Whatever opinions people have about Florida -- and me, I don't know, cause I'm never going to go there -

The Auto Train will likely keep running. Any minor changes to the consist and the price notwithstanding.


----------



## guest_nj_2

Concur with Allypet.

I would also prefer to roam as far away from GML as possible.

And, I like BOTH NJ and FL (live in NJ, vacation in FL).

Both are fine for different reasons (culture vs nature/climate).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

NJ does have a lot of culture. I thought we had invented anti biotics for that, though.


----------



## Allypet

rrdude said:


> OK, back to topic, (and I'm as bad, or worse than anyone at straying...)
> 
> Consist for the trip North on the AT on April 20 was:
> 
> Coach Diner
> 
> Coach Diner
> 
> Coach
> 
> Coach
> 
> Coach
> 
> Coach
> 
> Coach
> 
> Lounge (the "one and only")
> 
> Sleeper
> 
> Sleeper
> 
> Sleeper
> 
> Sleeper Diner
> 
> Sleeper
> 
> Sleeper
> 
> Sleeper
> 
> Sleeper
> 
> Auto Racks.......


Thanks RRDude. Do you remember if the car numbers looked like this?

----|---- —— Superliner Dorm
5245|5345 —— Superliner Sleeper
5243|5343 —— Superliner Sleeper
5241|5341 —— Superliner Sleeper Deluxe
----|---- —— Superliner Diner
5240|5340 —— Superliner Sleeper Deluxe
5242|5342 —— Superliner Sleeper
5244|5344 —— Superliner Sleeper
----|---- —— Superliner Auto Train Lounge
5210|5310 —— Superliner Coach
5211|5311 —— Superliner Coach
5212|5312 —— Superliner Coach
5213|5313 —— Superliner Coach
5214|5314 —— Superliner Coach
----|---- —— Superliner Diner
----|---- —— Superliner Diner (as table car)


----------



## FormerOBS

RrDude's consist for 4/20 (posted 4/24) is correct, but backwards. The coaches are at the south end, and the sleepers at the north end. The consist posted by Allypet above is the current standard, but the crew transition dorm was out of service and replaced with a standard Superliner sleeper for the following trips: northbound April 18-19; southbound April 19-20; northbound April 20-21; and southbound April 21-22. Allypet's line numbers are correct.


----------



## rrdude

Sorry 'bout tht, I just went by the pix I took, did not write any numbers down. Foamer-Fail.


----------



## Ryan

That's it, hand over the membership card.


----------



## FormerOBS

I say we let it slide just this once. Any further violations of this sort......... Well, let's just say it won't be pleasant.


----------



## FormerOBS

RrDude: Regarding your posting 4/22 9:06AM

Your sleeping car attendant was Denisia. I don't remember her last name. She's on the extra board. I thought about sending this as a personal message, but decided to send it publicly. She's always reliable and a pleasure to work with, so she deserves to be acknowledged publicly.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Upon reading some the discussion here this is the image that passes through my mind....


----------



## rrdude

Thanx! I wanted to write CS, and tell them what a GREAT job she did!


----------



## Allypet

*The following is from a friend of mine who works for Amtrak, so besides the cuts to the USA Today newspapers in June and as well as the cuts announced already, there is a whole host of other things happening, and will happen:*

"When the train arrived in Lorton on May 16, all remaining china cups, plates, etc. were removed from the train. We are still using stainless steel flatware. The dishwasher position is now officially gone. New crew bids were held about 2 weeks ago, and the newly-constituted crews are making their first trips now. Previously, the dishwasher (actual title: "Food Service Specialist") served as a general assistant to the chefs, and his/her duties included making salads & other general help in addition to dish washing. Salads were supposed to disappear, but the word is now that they will be continued. One of the chefs will now make them. The chefs are now responsible for washing flatware, cooking pans & utensils, etc.

About a week ago, we were given "butcher block" paper to use as tablecloths. These are designed for butchers to use for wrapping raw meat, so they don't leak. That means they don't absorb anything that might be spilled. Spills ran all over the tables before we could stop them from flowing all over the place. On our last trip, the cloth table cloths were back, but I get the impression that they still want to replace the cloth table cloths with something disposable. We are generating far more trash than before.

Changes to the sleeper diner menu:

The steaks disappeared a couple weeks ago, replaced by short ribs of beef. Baked potatoes (and supplies of sour cream) are gone, replaced by mashed potatoes. The fish entree is now cod.

Serving size of the chicken dish is one very small chicken breast. Small pizzas have been added as an option for the kids. The Choo Choo Chewies are still with us, but the macaroni & cheese that was included, is now gone. Instead, the kids can have rice or mashed potatoes (have you ever heard of an American kid who preferred plain rice over mac & cheese? I haven't).

For breakfast, we have occasionally been receiving Raisin Bran again. This disappeared from the supplies several months ago, but has returned. Don't know whether it's permanently back or not. Bananas are no longer supplied to the diners for breakfast. Instead, oranges are substituted. Some say the breakfast tables look a bit strange with a bowl of oranges sitting next to a carafe of orange juice. A limited number of bananas is now supplied FOR SALE in the lounge car. Special K, Frosted Flakes, and warm bagels & corn muffins are still with us.

Lack of a lounge car to use as a waiting area continues to be a problem, especially on full trains.

Passenger counts have generally run as high as about 600 people. Future bookings appear to be very high, and management appears to be happy with the increased revenue from the extra coach and reduced costs because of the cuts.

There is talk of adding a seventh sleeper, probably as a test beginning in June. Various interests have claimed that this would put too much strain on the electrical system during summer months when air conditioning is running at peak levels. One plan is to take away the extra coach that was recently added, in order to allow this. Another is to keep both the extra coach AND the new sleeper."


----------



## Bob Dylan

Today the SCA on #22 told me that they are only being issued one pack of coffee for the Sleepers and no coffee will be available after that is used up !

Also no more ice in the Sleeping Car, the attendant will have to get it for pax from the diner or cafe!

Is Mica Laughing in his office in DC?


----------



## jebr

jimhudson said:


> Today the SCA on #22 told me that they are only being issued one pack of coffee for the Sleepers and no coffee will be available after that is used up !
> 
> Also no more ice in the Sleeping Car, the attendant will have to get it for pax from the diner or cafe!
> 
> Is Mica Laughing in his office in DC?


As in they're only able to make one pot per trip? That seems rather silly if that's the case...I can't imagine Amtrak is paying all that much for coffee, and I seriously question anyone that spins coffee as "high-class" "wasted taxpayer money."


----------



## Allypet

I'm sorry, but if they take away my coffee that will be the last straw!


----------



## b243923

With the changes and the price increase we have decided to fly this time. We have taken the auto train for the past 7 years, but the prices have increased too much and almost the same price to fly.


----------



## yarrow

Allypet said:


> *The following is from a friend of mine who works for Amtrak, so besides the cuts to the USA Today newspapers in June and as well as the cuts announced already, there is a whole host of other things happening, and will happen:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the train arrived in Lorton on May 16, all remaining china cups, plates, etc. were removed from the train. We are still using stainless steel flatware. The dishwasher position is now officially gone. New crew bids were held about 2 weeks ago, and the newly-constituted crews are making their first trips now. Previously, the dishwasher (actual title: "Food Service Specialist") served as a general assistant to the chefs, and his/her duties included making salads & other general help in addition to dish washing. Salads were supposed to disappear, but the word is now that they will be continued. One of the chefs will now make them. The chefs are now responsible for washing flatware, cooking pans & utensils, etc.
> 
> About a week ago, we were given "butcher block" paper to use as tablecloths. These are designed for butchers to use for wrapping raw meat, so they don't leak. That means they don't absorb anything that might be spilled. Spills ran all over the tables before we could stop them from flowing all over the place. On our last trip, the cloth table cloths were back, but I get the impression that they still want to replace the cloth table cloths with something disposable. We are generating far more trash than before.
> 
> Changes to the sleeper diner menu:
> The steaks disappeared a couple weeks ago, replaced by short ribs of beef. Baked potatoes (and supplies of sour cream) are gone, replaced by mashed potatoes. The fish entree is now cod.
> Serving size of the chicken dish is one very small chicken breast. Small pizzas have been added as an option for the kids. The Choo Choo Chewies are still with us, but the macaroni & cheese that was included, is now gone. Instead, the kids can have rice or mashed potatoes (have you ever heard of an American kid who preferred plain rice over mac & cheese? I haven't).
> 
> For breakfast, we have occasionally been receiving Raisin Bran again. This disappeared from the supplies several months ago, but has returned. Don't know whether it's permanently back or not. Bananas are no longer supplied to the diners for breakfast. Instead, oranges are substituted. Some say the breakfast tables look a bit strange with a bowl of oranges sitting next to a carafe of orange juice. A limited number of bananas is now supplied FOR SALE in the lounge car. Special K, Frosted Flakes, and warm bagels & corn muffins are still with us.
> 
> Lack of a lounge car to use as a waiting area continues to be a problem, especially on full trains.
> 
> Passenger counts have generally run as high as about 600 people. Future bookings appear to be very high, and management appears to be happy with the increased revenue from the extra coach and reduced costs because of the cuts.
> 
> There is talk of adding a seventh sleeper, probably as a test beginning in June. Various interests have claimed that this would put too much strain on the electrical system during summer months when air conditioning is running at peak levels. One plan is to take away the extra coach that was recently added, in order to allow this. Another is to keep both the extra coach AND the new sleeper.
Click to expand...

i have always loved trains. train watching, reading about trains, talking trains and traveling by train. however, a company run in the idiotic fashion indicated in the above post is not worthy of continued taxpayer or passenger support.


----------



## Anderson

Oy. I'm _really_ not liking at least some of what I'm hearing...if for no other reason than they touched my steak! You do not mess with my steak!

Joking aside, that is actually a bit of a killer for me. I took the Auto Train back in November and loved it, and was probably going to be doing an annual round-trip on it in the future. Now? Not so much. The one rub here is that, as I have to concede frequently, Amtrak is in a capacity jam here. They're not handling this too well, but at least they aren't doing what Indian Railways did in response to a similar situation back in the 60s and ditching the dining cars.

In the long term, I would sincerely hope that Amtrak could eventually make a case for completely refitting the Auto Train with new equipment to enable a longer trainset and to bring back the additional lounge space. That would probably require a power car, of course...but looking at the ridership numbers I have to wonder where the ceiling on demand is, particularly in peak seasons. They've managed to go from <200k to >260k, and a lot of that was down to a capacity addition. Assuming they don't slash services further and can accommodate the demand, if there is support on the route for 600 pax/day, is there support on the route for 700? 750? More? And frankly, how do you accommodate that much demand with a single daily frequency?


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> They're not handling this too well, but at least they aren't doing what Indian Railways did in response to a similar situation back in the 60s and ditching the dining cars.


True. However, in the defense of Indian Railways, they were in a far worse jam than Auto Train or Amtrak as a whole can merely dream of in terms of supply-demand imbalance, and they did not have the freedom to increase fares to control demand like Amtrak does. So they just had to hunker down and increase supply as much as they could with the meager means available to them.
Besides by that time it was already almost impossible for a significant proportion of the passengers on the train to ever get into the Restaurant Car during their journey due to severe shortage of capacity relative to the number of passengers on the train. At this time they were running twin married pair Diner-Kitchen sets, so there was an entire car of tables, and there was also a buffet counter in the other car. They essentially just removed the table car and kept the Kitchen car and arranged to deliver food at the seat of each passenger, which actually increased the cost of operation some, but produced more satisfied customers apparently. So people were in a way happier to get some certainty regarding getting food service at their seats. So out went the Restaurant Cars and in came the Pantry Cars. Remember that these trains had very few commercial halts so getting food at a station was not a practical option, sort of like on most LD trains.


----------



## I always rode the Southern

This makes me so sad. I was getting ready to write a trip report on our trip northbound right after the cuts took place. We had a great trip thanks to the efforts of an outstanding OBS staff who did everything they could to minimize the effects of any cuts. Besides the effect on passenger satisfaction, this has to be demoralizing to this crew, and others who have made the effort to ensure the highest quality of service they can.


----------



## neroden

Well, this is probably actual savings, unlike the false savings of some of the other cuts. Nobody has said they'll stop riding the train due to lack of newspapers.

The stupidity on the Auto Train *will* reduce revenues and increase costs. *Lots* of people have said they'll stop riding the train due to the unpleasant degradation of service there.


----------



## neroden

Please, everyone who's decided to stop taking the Auto Train, write to Amtrak and explain exactly why. It's the only way they have a chance of understanding how short-sighted they've been.

Complaints should be directed to Mark Murphy, Director of Long-Distance Services, or directly to Joe Boardman; they're the ones who have the power to change things.

Amtrak is terrible about publishing internal addresses, so I suppose letters have to go directly to Amtrak headquarters: 60 Massachusetts Ave NE, Washington, DC 20002.


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> Please, everyone who's decided to stop taking the Auto Train, write to Amtrak and explain exactly why. It's the only way they have a chance of understanding how short-sighted they've been.Complaints should be directed to Mark Murphy, Director of Long-Distance Services, or directly to Joe Boardman; they're the ones who have the power to change things.Amtrak is terrible about publishing internal addresses, so I suppose letters have to go directly to Amtrak headquarters: 60 Massachusetts Ave NE, Washington, DC 20002.


Why single out the AT? Cuts on some other routes are just as severe.........


----------



## neroden

Auto Train lost a lounge car, and the dining car staff is being told to shove people out faster than they can eat.

I don't think this has happened on other trains.


----------



## jis

Although in all fairness it is yet to be seen if the numbers that will not ride by their own admission will actually have any impact. It may or may not. It is yet to be seen what will happen. While I agree that the experience has now become less pleasant than before, I am forever amazed at what people will put up with. The current profitability of the airline industry is exhibit number one. If people find the base service useful or indispensable they will easily forgo all kinds of frills and enhanced experiences and continue to use the service, unfortunately.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Although in all fairness it is yet to be seen if the numbers that will not ride by their own admission will actually have any impact. It may or may not. It is yet to be seen what will happen. While I agree that the experience has now become less pleasant than before, I am forever amazed at what people will put up with. The current profitability of the airline industry is exhibit number one. If people find the base service useful or indispensable they will easily forgo all kinds of frills and enhanced experiences and continue to use the service, unfortunately.


I'm often amazed at what people are willing to put up with on Amtrak. Exhibit one would probably be the Empire Builder's perpetually broken schedule and lack of useful connections. Exhibit two would might be the Sunset Limited's once every few days schedule or the shockingly poor service levels of the California Zephyr. Average people must fly as a condition of employment. They must fly to reach sick loved ones or attend funerals in a timely fashion. They must fly to make practical use of relatively limited vacation days. They must fly to reach other continents. What sort of customer is truly beholden to the Auto Train regardless of the service or cost?


----------



## SarahZ

Devil's Advocate said:


> What sort of customer is truly beholden to the Auto Train regardless of the service or cost?


People who are terrified of flying and/or people who can't drive long distances easily (or simply don't want to).


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> Auto Train lost a lounge car, and the dining car staff is being told to shove people out faster than they can eat.I don't think this has happened on other trains.


No other route feeds every pax, either. Perhaps, to be consistent, the AT should only offer "free" meals to sleeper pax? Just like the rest of the system...............That would alleviate the dining car burden.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SarahZ said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> What sort of customer is truly beholden to the Auto Train regardless of the service or cost?
> 
> 
> 
> People who are terrified of flying and/or people who can't drive long distances easily (or simply don't want to).
Click to expand...

If they're terrified of flying they can always take another train or a bus. If they have trouble driving long distances they have the option of stopping often and/or for long periods along the way when driving. I don't dispute that the Auto-Train is popular. What I'm disputing is that it's any sort of critical transportation link that cannot be replaced with other options. Also, see neroden's post above.


----------



## SarahZ

My mother cannot sit in a car for longer than 20-30 minutes due to pain issues. Therefore, stopping often and for long periods of time wouldn't work for her. That's why I used her as an example.

Additionally, there are times when driving and stopping at hotels along the way may exceed the cost of the AT (particularly if one is using points to book it).

I agree that someone terrified of flying could take one of the Silvers. I got this thread mixed up with one of the other amenity threads and didn't realize it was about the AT.


----------



## Allypet

SarahZ said:


> My mother cannot sit in a car for longer than 20-30 minutes due to pain issues. Therefore, stopping often and for long periods of time wouldn't work for her. That's why I used her as an example.
> 
> Additionally, there are times when driving and stopping at hotels along the way may exceed the cost of the AT (particularly if one is using points to book it).
> 
> I agree that someone terrified of flying could take one of the Silvers. I got this thread mixed up with one of the other amenity threads and didn't realize it was about the AT.


Sarah, you didn't mix anything up. This is the newspaper thread that somehow turned into the AT cut thread. :unsure:

I really don't care one way of the other about the newspaper, I thought USA Today was a rag and really wont miss it. With that said, don't be surprised if USA Today doesn't give the newspapers to Amtrak free to keep their circulation numbers up so they can charge advertisers more.


----------



## jis

As I said all along, we'll see what effect it has. Until we have real world data it is all somewhat emotion driven speculation IMHO, post justified by selected pieces of supporting arguments. But then any discussion about future is such and they are always fun to have.

Frankly the changes in Auto-Train will have no effect at all in my use of it. I have used it several times a year and will continue to do so with no change whatsoever. I neither expect nor ride the Auto Train to get a superb experience about anything. I use it because it is convenient and serves my purpose.


----------



## SarahZ

Allypet said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> My mother cannot sit in a car for longer than 20-30 minutes due to pain issues. Therefore, stopping often and for long periods of time wouldn't work for her. That's why I used her as an example.
> 
> Additionally, there are times when driving and stopping at hotels along the way may exceed the cost of the AT (particularly if one is using points to book it).
> 
> I agree that someone terrified of flying could take one of the Silvers. I got this thread mixed up with one of the other amenity threads and didn't realize it was about the AT.
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah, you didn't mix anything up. This is the newspaper thread that somehow turned into the AT cut thread. :unsure:
> 
> I really don't care one way of the other about the newspaper, I thought USA Today was a rag and really wont miss it. With that said, don't be surprised if USA Today doesn't give the newspapers to Amtrak free to keep their circulation numbers up so they can charge advertisers more.
Click to expand...

Ha. Told you I couldn't keep them all straight.


----------



## yarrow

neroden said:


> Auto Train lost a lounge car, and the dining car staff is being told to shove people out faster than they can eat.
> 
> I don't think this has happened on other trains.


not yet.

thanks for the suggestions of who to write to. maybe smilin' joe can live without his private cars to cut costs. probably not


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Frankly the changes in Auto-Train will have no effect at all in my use of it. I have used it several times a year and will continue to do so with no change whatsoever.


Just you wait 'till your next trip. If reports are accurate about extremely long delays to eat, you may change your mind and take the Silver Service instead the time after.


----------



## jis

I doubt it. You have no idea how tolerant I am of such.  Until Silver Service starts taking my car along, I will not use Silver Service instead of Auto Train. I'd simply fly if I did not have a whole pile of stuff to carry along and have to rent a car at the other end. Why waste a day traveling when I can do it in 2.5 hours? Unlike some folks here I actually love to fly, remember?


----------



## The Torch

I believe that the initial negative impact on ridership will be felt on the Autotrain but not until after the next snowbird season. The regular snowbird riders ( the seniors) on this route are not going to take kindly to paying higher and higher prices, receiving fewer amenities and dining as animals being rushed to eat an abbreviated menu...and no lounge car for sleeper passengers, your main source of revenue? I will not be taking that train late in 2014 as planned. Screw em!


----------



## Palmetto

neroden said:


> Please, everyone who's decided to stop taking the Auto Train, write to Amtrak and explain exactly why. It's the only way they have a chance of understanding how short-sighted they've been.
> 
> Complaints should be directed to Mark Murphy, Director of Long-Distance Services, or directly to Joe Boardman; they're the ones who have the power to change things.
> 
> Amtrak is terrible about publishing internal addresses, so I suppose letters have to go directly to Amtrak headquarters: 60 Massachusetts Ave NE, Washington, DC 20002.



Here's what I wrote to Amtrak:

[SIZE=medium]I am reading in various places that services are being downgraded on long distance trains: dropping of a lounge on the Auto Train, the disappearance of wine and cheese tastings, the appearance of PLASTIC plates in dining cars [how do you call yourselves a green company?], flowers gone in the dining car? Are you really all that beholden to the likes of Sen. John Mica? Is Amtrak in existence solely at the whim of lawmakers? It seems that this is becoming the case, and you're cutting your nose off to spite your face. Has Amtrak considered the airline model? At least the offer the possibility of amenties for those wiling to pay for them! I have a $1,400 ticket in the reservation system, in sleeper class. I am seriously considering cancelling this reservation. Is this the reaction you want from customers? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I currently live 200 miles from the nearest Amtrak service, but will be moving in August to a city that Amtrak serves [Miami]. I am seriously thinking of flying to my destination as a result of these cutbacks in sleeper class.[/SIZE]


----------



## neroden

Yeah, I already mentioned that most people on the Auto Train take once-a-year trips, and most of them don't hang out on forums like this -- so the drop in revenue and ridership will largely be noticed after a year's delay, when they take a bad trip and decide not to go next year. Sigh.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Mica is in the House not the Senate.


----------



## rusty spike

neroden said:


> Yeah, I already mentioned that most people on the Auto Train take once-a-year trips, and most of them don't hang out on forums like this -- so the drop in revenue and ridership will largely be noticed after a year's delay, when they take a bad trip and decide not to go next year. Sigh.


You may be right unless enough early arriving snowbirds tell their friends and relatives still up North what an awful experience they had on the Auto Train this time. Some of these folks don't use this forum but they have their own "grapevine" of information.

You know the old saying about your customers: "Make a customer happy and he may tell a friend or two; make him really angry and he'll tell 10 to 20 people". You might see significant number of reservations cancelled (or not made) before the winter season is over.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Oi gevaldt,


----------



## Anderson

(Mod note: The big influx of posts here is due to the newspaper-specific thread getting cleaned up and the posts moved in here. I don't think it should be too confusing, but that's the source of any disconnect in the conversations over the last day or so.)


----------



## Palmetto

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Mica is in the House not the Senate.


And thanks for pointing that out. When I wrote what I did, I was a bit annoyed at the whole downgrade-of-services situation. Not a good thing to write anything when one is hot under the collar!


----------



## Paulus

> The Auto Train was significantly ahead of ticket revenue Budget (+21%) due in part to the addition of a coach car in March. As a result, April coach ridership on the Auto Train was +26% vs last April, and Auto Train coach ticket revenues were nearly 50% higher than last year (the Auto Train is the only long distance route YTD that is ahead of ticket revenue Budget).


April Monthly Performance Report

Sleeper ridership was up 8.9%, revenue up 18.4%

Amtrak accounting's response to thoughts of reversing that decision


----------



## Ryan

Lets see what it looks like next April. Most of the people that bought those tickets did so before the service reductions.


----------



## neroden

RyanS said:


> Lets see what it looks like next April. Most of the people that bought those tickets did so before the service reductions.


Exactly what I said, in advance.

With this particular sort of downgrade (actually most sorts), there's a serious lag time between the downgrade and the revenue drop.

You see the same phenomenon with OTP drops, though with a shorter lag time -- when OTP crashes on a commuter or urban rail line, the numbers for the month where it crashed are still pretty good, it's the next month where you see the drop in ridership.

When the Southern Pacific decided to install Automat cars instead of dining cars, I'm going to bet that the ridership and revenue looked better for a brief period too, not that I know how to look that up.

The really unfortunate part is that there's also a lag time between quality improvements and the return of ridership and revenue. So when OTP gets better, the riders don't come back for a year or so. The same is true of reversing the idiotic and destructive amenities cuts, though riders come back quicker for stuff like that; even if the cuts are reversed next week, the damage is going to last for a while.

One would hope that the analysts at Amtrak would understand these lag times when they do their analyses, but I worry that they don't.


----------



## Paulus

Auto Train revenue April 2013: $6,316,157 of which

sleeper: $2,510,286

coach: $3,805,871

Auto Train revenue April 2014: $8,015,290 of which

sleeper: $2,972,011

coach: $5,043,279

In order to have a drop in revenue relative to FY13, you need a 57% drop in sleeper revenue. I'm really doubtful we'll see that.


----------



## neroden

Like I say, and like I said as soon as the cuts were announced, the results won't be clear until 2015. Maybe it will work out fine for Amtrak -- the underlying trend in favor of rail service is so astoundingly positive that people flock even to terrible services. Or maybe it won't. But either way, we won't know for sure until next year.


----------



## Ryan

Paulus said:


> In order to have a drop in revenue relative to FY13, you need a 57% drop in sleeper revenue. I'm really doubtful we'll see that.


I'm not sure what you're talking about there. An overall decrease in revenue of 22% will put revenue below 2013.

If you're just talking about sleeper revenue, a decrease of 16% will put you under 2013 sleeper revenue.

Is that the criteria for success/failure is? If revenues only decrease 10% this will be a "success"?


----------



## Paulus

RyanS said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> In order to have a drop in revenue relative to FY13, you need a 57% drop in sleeper revenue. I'm really doubtful we'll see that.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you're talking about there. An overall decrease in revenue of 22% will put revenue below 2013.
> 
> If you're just talking about sleeper revenue, a decrease of 16% will put you under 2013 sleeper revenue.
> 
> Is that the criteria for success/failure is? If revenues only decrease 10% this will be a "success"?
Click to expand...

The criteria for failure is a net overall loss in revenue. If sleeper revenue goes down, but there is a greater increase in coach revenue, such that net revenue increases, the change is a success. Since the potential negative impact from the changes is just on the sleepers, they are where I expect any ridership loss to take place.


----------



## Ryan

So the 57% comes from holding coach revenue the same and driving sleeper revenue down until you're lower than 2013? You're right, that is utterly ridiculous.

Time will tell... I'm not jumping to any conclusions until the data comes in.


----------



## FormerOBS

New order of equipment on Auto Train:

From North to South:

Transition sleeper (Crew dorm)

52/5345 standard Superliner sleeper

52/5344 " " "

52/5343 " " "

52/5342 " " "

52/5341 10-bedroom all-deluxe Superliner sleeper

52/5340 " " " " " "

Diner (sleeping car passengers only)

Lounge (all passengers)

52/5310 Superliner coach

52/5311 " "

52/5312 " "

52/5313 " "

52/5314 " "

Diner (coach passengers only)

Diner (coach passengers only, overflow)

Beginning very soon, a seventh sleeper (presumably 52/5346) will be added to the consist for one trip per week, on a trial basis. This is expected to be for a period of about a month. This may necessitate removal of the recently added extra coach on these days. The sleeper diner was repositioned so that lounge car seats & tables can be used for overflow seating for the sleeper diner. If the sleeper diner were left in the middle of the sleeper section, the lounge car seating would not be adjacent to the diner. As of yesterday, the O.B.S. crews have not been told whether an extra waiter will be assigned to work these extra tables. The earlier announcement from management indicated that extra help would not be provided in any case, but it is possible that this has changed. The question of using the train's one already-crowded lounge car for dining car seating has not been addressed as far as I know, but it is possible that this is being looked into as well.

Butcher paper is no longer being used as table cloths. This was a short-lived, unsuccessful plan. A different kind of paper tablecloth is sometimes being provided, but not on a truly consistent basis. Cloth tablecloths are used when paper tablecloths are not available.


----------



## Allypet

Some sleeper car passenger have a 6 car walk to dinner or 7 cars to the lounge? That will work. Right! What are they thinking?


----------



## Ryan

What would you do to make it better and sill maintain the extra capacity?


----------



## Paulus

Allypet said:


> Some sleeper car passenger have a 6 car walk to dinner or 7 cars to the lounge? That will work. Right! What are they thinking?


Oh the horror. A 500 foot walk. Dear God in Heaven, what sociopath thought it reasonable to inflict a _two minute walk_ upon passengers?


----------



## FormerOBS

I probably don't have any suggestions that would be acceptable to current management.

I have to side with Allypet regarding the distance. Don't forget the demographics of the Auto Train, which is always very heavy on retired snowbirds. It's not a 2-minute walk when you're 80 years old & have had (or need) a left knee replacement & a right hip replacement. The new arrangement also means that sleeper passengers who wish to visit the lounge car must ALL pass through the very busy sleeper diner on their way. With the previous arrangement, only 50% of lounge visitors had to go through the diner. A Superliner sleeper is about 90 feet long. Seven of them total about 630 feet (2 football fields). Going through the diner to the lounge adds another 90 feet, for a total of about 720 feet.


----------



## rrdude

The Torch said:


> I believe that the initial negative impact on ridership will be felt on the Autotrain but not until after the next snowbird season. The regular snowbird riders ( the seniors) on this route are not going to take kindly to paying higher and higher prices, receiving fewer amenities and dining as animals being rushed to eat an abbreviated menu...and no lounge car for sleeper passengers, your main source of revenue? I will not be taking that train late in 2014 as planned. Screw em!


Ditto. Already made alternate plans for 2015, this for a family of five, sometime six, as many as nine. Screw 'em. I'm not gonna pay those rates to be treated like cattle. I'm resigned to the fact that I'm "off" Amtrak LD for the foreseeable future, and that makes me sad... 
This from a consistant annual rider since 2000. Counting each OW trip, that's well over 25 AT trips. (Had to drive OW a couple of times, "sold out")

I mean REALLY, what other company treats it's loyal, money-spending cusx like this?

Mind-blowing if you truly think about it.

LD train travel is supposed to be about "the Experience", NOT just getting from Point A, to Point B.... Just look at 90% of Amtrak's LD advertising over the years. Eugene Garfield must be rolling over in his grave, he started Auto Train with a vision, he KNEW what the rider wanted. Now they get ****. "Butcher paper" as table clothes... Wonder what Suit thought that wud work on a moving train....


----------



## Paulus

If they truly cannot stand that much of a walk, they can always have it delivered to them; that's not to mention that that is a worst case scenario anyhow.


----------



## crescent2

Paulus said:


> Allypet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some sleeper car passenger have a 6 car walk to dinner or 7 cars to the lounge? That will work. Right! What are they thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh the horror. A 500 foot walk. Dear God in Heaven, what sociopath thought it reasonable to inflict a _two minute walk_ upon passengers?
Click to expand...




FormerOBS said:


> I probably don't have any suggestions that would be acceptable to current management.
> 
> I have to side with Allypet regarding the distance. Don't forget the demographics of the Auto Train, which is always very heavy on retired snowbirds. It's not a 2-minute walk when you're 80 years old & have had (or need) a left knee replacement & a right hip replacement. The new arrangement also means that sleeper passengers who wish to visit the lounge car must ALL pass through the very busy sleeper diner on their way. With the previous arrangement, only 50% of lounge visitors had to go through the diner. A Superliner sleeper is about 90 feet long. Seven of them total about 630 feet (2 football fields). Going through the diner to the lounge adds another 90 feet, for a total of about 720 feet.


I certainly don't have a solution, so this situation may be unavoidable, but I'll have to also agree that it would not be uncommon for a walk of that length on a moving train to prove very difficult or impossible for older passengers, who seem to be numerous on the AT. Of course, meals can be served in the sleeper compartment if needed, but not everyone likes that. Point being, that IS a long walk for some people, and it would be "nice" if a better car arrangement could somehow be found.

Having been the spouse of a mobility-limited, along with a few other limitations such as balance and vision, person, I guess I'm more aware that other people's needs may be different from mine, and should be taken into consideration even if a solution can't always be found. And I don't think one would have to be technically mobility-limited for that walk to be a problem, so the above post seemed kind of harsh to me.

Edit: Post crossed with Paulus' last one.


----------



## rrdude

Paulus said:


> If they truly cannot stand that much of a walk, they can always have it delivered to them; that's not to mention that that is a worst case scenario anyhow.


And who, in their *right mind*, (AU's excluded, especially Ryan) wants to ride a tin can for 18 hours, sequestered in their tiny room, and virtually *not enjoy* the amenity of enjoying a meal in a dining car, or sitting in the lounge car? (even thou there are no available seats)

Elon Musk' vacuum tube "capsules" are looking more attractive than ever, at least you would only be in the "room" for 45 minutes, X country....


----------



## jis

FormerOBS said:


> A Superliner sleeper is about 90 feet long. Seven of them total about 630 feet (2 football fields). Going through the diner to the lounge adds another 90 feet, for a total of about 720 feet.


The actual numbers are 85', 595' and 680' in case anyone cares for precision. The actual walk from one end to the other I suspect may be more than 90' because of the two jogs on the way moving from center aisle to side aisle and back to center (85' + 2 x 4' = 93' or so). So the actual walk is probably longer than what is mentioned by the OP.
On the Canadian they try to put in a Diner for about 5 or 6 cars. And of course anyone that wants to go to the Park Car may have to walk as many as 15 car lengths, depending on which Sleeper you are in. The population demographics is probably similar to that on the Auto Train. People who have serious mobility problems should preferably be served in their rooms and not made to walk even two cars let alone six.


----------



## neroden

FormerOBS said:


> Beginning very soon, a seventh sleeper (presumably 52/5346) will be added to the consist for one trip per week, on a trial basis. This is expected to be for a period of about a month. This may necessitate removal of the recently added extra coach on these days.


For goodness' sake, retrofitting the cars to use less HEP would be blatantly worth it. I think these cars are still using incandescent lighting and decades-old A/C? It should be possible to keep the extra coach, add the extra sleeper, and re-add the extra lounge -- it's not THAT long a train.
Has operations asked engineering for an estimate as to what could be done with energy efficiency to lengthen the train? Because they should. This would likely be a cheaper alternative to a power car; a remotely controlled power car should also be priced out.


----------



## Ryan

If it's that much of a concern, you can also ask for a room in a car close to the diner at the time of booking.

Unless you want an upper level roomette, then you've still got to walk through the all bedroom sleepers to get there. A refinement chould be alternating the all-bedroom sleepers with the regular sleepers.



rrdude said:


> And who, in their *right mind*, (AU's excluded, especially Ryan) wants to ride a tin can for 18 hours, sequestered in their tiny room


Hey, even I'll leave my room for meals! 

I am most assuredly not in my right mind, though.


----------



## Paulus

rrdude said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they truly cannot stand that much of a walk, they can always have it delivered to them; that's not to mention that that is a worst case scenario anyhow.
> 
> 
> 
> And who, in their *right mind*, (AU's excluded, especially Ryan) wants to ride a tin can for 18 hours, sequestered in their tiny room, and virtually *not enjoy* the amenity of enjoying a meal in a dining car, or sitting in the lounge car? (even thou there are no available seats)
Click to expand...

Sucks to be them if they cannot walk that far? Honestly, if they're not going to be able to safely go 600 feet, they're not going to be able to go 300 feet either and no matter what will end up stuck in their rooms.



> Elon Musk' vacuum tube "capsules" are looking more attractive than ever, at least you would only be in the "room" for 45 minutes, X country....


Unfortunately his design is a fail-deadly vomit comet.


----------



## crescent2

"Sucks to be them if they cannot walk that far? Honestly, if they're not going to be able to safely go 600 feet, they're not going to be able to go 300 feet either and no matter what will end up stuck in their rooms."

No, not necessarily. Hubby could walk (carefully) one or two car lengths to the diner until our very last trip, but he could not have walked too much farther. Some of my friends who have no "handicaps" and would not even qualify for the H unit are nevertheless limited as to distances they can walk even on regular ground, because of knee surgery, back problems, etc. Many of us are blessed to have no such issues at present, but these issues aren't rare.

As was suggested, trying to get a sleeper car near the dining car may be their best bet. But hopefully, Amtrak takes the needs of all passengers into account when they make these decisions, particularly on the "snowbird train."


----------



## jis

rrdude said:


> And who, in their *right mind*, (AU's excluded, especially Ryan) wants to ride a tin can for 18 hours, sequestered in their tiny room, and virtually *not enjoy* the amenity of enjoying a meal in a dining car, or sitting in the lounge car? (even thou there are no available seats)


Auto train takes 18 hours to get from Lorton to Sanford? Did they show me the wrong timetable again?  


> Elon Musk' vacuum tube "capsules" are looking more attractive than ever, at least you would only be in the "room" for 45 minutes, X country....


The grass always looks greener on the side of the fence that does not exist yet.


----------



## Allypet

If you are in the furthest bedroom it's a full 8 cars trip to the lounge. I'm young and in great health, but if Amtrak thinks I'm going to walk over a 1/4 mile round trip to buy a can of soda, they have another thing coming to them.

I booked my July AT trip last year before all of this mess. I enjoy utilizing the lounge car, I get a little stir crazy in my room, and I picked my car accordingly. Now the AT is in its third configuration since my booking so I'm not even sure what configuration it will be, and it's 3 weeks out!


----------



## rrdude

jis said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> And who, in their *right mind*, (AU's excluded, especially Ryan) wants to ride a tin can for 18 hours, sequestered in their tiny room, and virtually *not enjoy* the amenity of enjoying a meal in a dining car, or sitting in the lounge car? (even thou there are no available seats)
> 
> 
> 
> Auto train takes 18 hours to get from Lorton to Sanford? Did they show me the wrong timetable again?
> 
> 
> 
> Elon Musk' vacuum tube "capsules" are looking more attractive than ever, at least you would only be in the "room" for 45 minutes, X country....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The grass always looks greener on the side of the fence that does not exist yet.
Click to expand...

last time we took it north, it was longer than that JIS. And I think the schedule is for 17.5, effective June 9th

You should look at some of the YELP! reviews, def not railfans............


----------



## Devil's Advocate

The Auto Train is starting to sound more like a medical train with cots instead of beds and gurneys instead of vehicles.


----------



## rrdude

Devil's Advocate said:


> The Auto Train is starting to sound more like a medical train with cots instead of beds and gurneys instead of vehicles.


You may be closer to the truth than anyone wants to admit.....

I felt so, so, bad for the seniors I witnessed back in April, who, _with great effort_ made it all the way from the sleepers to the lounge car, only to be turned away by a LSA that was out all stock, sans alcohol, and no seats to be found.......

**** poor decision removing the lounge, and positioning it _next_ to the sleeper diner is almost a slap in the face. "Yes" it makes it closer, and less of a walk, and allows overflow, but really..........."Oppps,.I just screwed up and got caught, now let me un-screw up........" Nice try Amtrak. FAIL.


----------



## Bob Dylan

And if another Sleeper is added to the consist as was mentioned by someone who has boots on the ground, this will alleviate the crowding in the Lounge and speed up meal service without additional OBS right?

Brilliant, give that Amdesk jockey a Bonus, they probably used to work @ the VA!!!!


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## crescent2

Devil's Advocate said:


> The Auto Train is starting to sound more like a medical train with cots instead of beds and gurneys instead of vehicles.


What is the purpose of this comment? Poking fun at those who have difficulty walking through a half dozen or more moving train cars? :huh:


----------



## The Davy Crockett

rrdude said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Auto Train is starting to sound more like a medical train with cots instead of beds and gurneys instead of vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> You may be closer to the truth than anyone wants to admit.....
> 
> I felt so, so, bad for the seniors I witnessed back in April, who, _with great effort_ made it all the way from the sleepers to the lounge car, only to be turned away by a LSA that was out all stock, sans alcohol, and no seats to be found.......
> 
> **** poor decision removing the lounge, and positioning it _next_ to the sleeper diner is almost a slap in the face. "Yes" it makes it closer, and less of a walk, and allows overflow, but really..........."Oppps,.I just screwed up and got caught, now let me un-screw up........" Nice try Amtrak. FAIL.
Click to expand...

DUDE! LD trains are sooo 20th Century!

Didn't you know that's why the decision was made to paint the Viewliner IIs in a 20th Cenury paint scheme? :huh:

Unfortunately it could be argued from Boardman's actions of late that his new modus operandi (remember the Brookings Institutie report?) is that LD trains are 'so yestreday,' :blink:


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## Ryan

crescent2 said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Auto Train is starting to sound more like a medical train with cots instead of beds and gurneys instead of vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the purpose of this comment? Poking fun at those who have difficulty walking through a half dozen or more moving train cars? :huh:
Click to expand...

No, he's poking fun at the "sky is falling" brigade for complaining about having to walk 11 million miles to get from one end of the train to the other.
It's not the end of the world. Yes, it's going to be difficult for some people. But there are plenty of things that can be done to mitigate that, and I haven't seen any solutions that solve the problem any better.

It's very easy to criticize, it's a lot more difficult to actually come up with a solution.


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## jis

Heh. If only they left the additional lounge in so that people could rest after their loooong walk before they moved to the Diner...... juuuuust kidding. 

Well, since according to the prognostication the Auto Train will most likely cease to be a viable proposition from next year since so many people will never ever ride it again, it will probably cease to exist after 2016, so we won't have to worry about all these details any more. --- again juuuust kidding. Then we can go back to discussing Sunset East.


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## crescent2

I understand what you're saying, but if someone with medical problems was reading this thread, I think they might get a different take and not feel very welcome on trains.


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## FormerOBS

Once upon a time I heard a folksinger who had a song about a person who couldn't walk. Wish I could remember the singer's name. In the song, he made the point that there are two kinds of people in the world: Those with disabilities, and those who are temporarily able-bodied. Don't "ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

It is a simple fact that the Auto Train's clientele is and largely has been dominated by retirees. Of course there are others who use it. Families find it useful for summer vacations or holiday vacations when the kids are out of school. College students use it to get to and from school. There are business travelers, and people making permanent relocations, too. But you will always find a significant number of members of the "greatest generation" on that train. Many cannot fly for medical reasons, and the full trip by automobile or bus would be almost impossible. We have seen many of the same folks year after year after year. The train has always had a very significant number of passengers who dine in their rooms or at their coach seats because of various infirmities that may or may not require use of the "H" room. The number of meals in rooms has significantly increased since the consist change, in the sleepers farthest from the diner. It is true that you can ask for a room in the cars closest to the diner; but those are the cars that fill up first already. Regular Auto Train riders often reserve their accommodations many, many months in advance. Those who reserve closer to the departure date are likely to be assigned to a distant car, unless they are fortunate enough to take advantage of a cancellation.

As for the "18 hour" schedule, it's possible. The current schedule calls for a 17-1/2 hour run: 4 PM to 9:30 AM. Actual arrival is often before 8:30, because the train does not have to hold at intermediate stations waiting for "time". CSX operations can make it longer or shorter, and potential passengers should never make plans that include a close connection at the destination (such as a cruise with an early afternoon departure).


----------



## ronkstevens

I had sent an email to Amtrak concerning my AT trip last month, and listed some of the things that made me feel that it was the worst LD experience I have had. It took one week to get an email reply, stating that my email had been forwarded to someone in customer service, but it may take several weeks until I hear from them, due to a high volume of customer comments.


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## Allypet

Thank you FormerOBS for your insightful posts. I myself took the AT 6 times last year alone so I understand what the issues are. One of the things I see is the lounge car is there to make money. By making it inconvenient to sleeper car passengers they are actually hurting income in the long run. Some people would still be nothing but overjoyed if Amtrak reduced LD service to a red Radio Flyer wagon tied behind a bicycle, however their numbers won't be able to sustain Amtrak. Amtrak has to attract all types of riders, not just foamers, to become even remotely profitable.


----------



## jis

FormerOBS said:


> As for the "18 hour" schedule, it's possible. The current schedule calls for a 17-1/2 hour run: 4 PM to 9:30 AM. Actual arrival is often before 8:30, because the train does not have to hold at intermediate stations waiting for "time". CSX operations can make it longer or shorter, and potential passengers should never make plans that include a close connection at the destination (such as a cruise with an early afternoon departure).


You're quite correct. A brain fart on my part. :blush: 


Allypet said:


> Some people would still be nothing but overjoyed if Amtrak reduced LD service to a red Radio Flyer wagon tied behind a bicycle, however their numbers won't be able to sustain Amtrak. Amtrak has to attract all types of riders, not just foamers, to become even remotely profitable.


So just to set ourselves a baseline, what percentage of Amtrak ridership do you suppose is "foamres"? Use whatever definition of "foamer" suits you. Just let us know what the definition is. Oh you were merely using it as a rhetorical device? That's OK then.


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## Green Maned Lion

You, Jishnu, are a foamer.


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## FormerOBS

I don't think Allypet's shorthand description was intended as a slight to anybody. It's hard to define Foamers. I can tell you that the Auto train has only a few true railfan or AU types among its regular ridership. My completely unscientific assessment is that there are probably not many more of those on the A-Train than you would find in the general population. Many passengers --- perhaps most --- are almost completely in the dark about the way railroads operate. But our repeat riders keep coming back; our first-time riders tend to enjoy the experience; and we have many first-timers who vow that they will be back. That's the nature of the train, the quality of the onboard service, the route, the schedule, and the demographics. I can say with some degree of pride that the onboard service crews are still doing the best they can manage with diminished resources, and I hope recent service "compromises" won't hurt our train's reputation too badly. I still believe in it and am proud to have been a part of it for well over twenty years, including its very best years.


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## Allypet

I consider myself a foamer. I love trains. I commute everyday on trains. I take them whenever I can. I do however have a keen sense of value. When I can get better value and service driving to Florida instead of taking the AT, I'll do it, because I also have a responsibility to my family that takes precedence over my love of train rides. If I can be "service cut" enough to give up the AT, then the average uninformed consumer really have been given no reason to make a repeat trip.


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## Dovecote

FormerOBS said:


> I don't think Allypet's shorthand description was intended as a slight to anybody. It's hard to define Foamers. I can tell you that the Auto train has only a few true railfan or AU types among its regular ridership. My completely unscientific assessment is that there are probably not many more of those on the A-Train than you would find in the general population. Many passengers --- perhaps most --- are almost completely in the dark about the way railroads operate. But our repeat riders keep coming back; our first-time riders tend to enjoy the experience; and we have many first-timers who vow that they will be back. That's the nature of the train, the quality of the onboard service, the route, the schedule, and the demographics. I can say with some degree of pride that the onboard service crews are still doing the best they can manage with diminished resources, and I hope recent service "compromises" won't hurt our train's reputation too badly. I still believe in it and am proud to have been a part of it for well over twenty years, including its very best years.


I was a frequent rider on the AT from 2009-2013. During that time the onboard service was stellar. I am sure our paths crossed a time or two. Thank you for your service on the Auto Train and the informative posts on AU.


----------



## neroden

I wish there were some way to communicate my idea of energy-efficient retrofits to someone in charge at Amtrak.

Amtrak has generally not bothered with energy-efficiency retrofits except when it's already rebuilding cars for some other reason; and this makes sense given that fuel is a relatively small cost compared to staffing. However, in the specific case of the Auto Train, the claim is that limitations on HEP are preventing it from being made longer. Adding a coach seems to be worth $1.7 million in revenue per *month* judging by April 2013 vs. 2014 (although this is probably an overestimate due to the date of Easter).

Therefore, if retrofitting the cars on the Auto Train for greater energy efficiency would allow for a longer train, it would pay for itself remarkably quickly. Quite possibly within the first two *months*. I'm going to wildly guess $30,000 per car for the retrofits (you aren't replacing everything, just lighting and parts of the HVAC). Call me optimistic, but I bet you could add three cars to the train by reducing the HEP load per car: make it the lounge for sleeper passengers, another sleeper, and yet another coach.


----------



## Bob Dylan

How dare you try to tell Amtrak Management something that makes sense and that would enhance their "Green" Image as well as enhance revenue??!!

The NIH (Not Invented Here!_) mindset is very strong in WAS and your idea is being sent to the appropriate department for study! (ie the circular file!)


----------



## FormerOBS

L.E.D. lighting has recently been installed in at least one Auto Train lounge, and there are plans to refit additional cars. I don't know whether the project will include other mods, & I don't know how many cars are to be modified.

My last trip was memorable. I got a lot of good wishes from a lot of long-time passengers and crew members. I was the beneficiary of countless hugs & kisses from other guys' wives, as well as handshakes from their approving husbands. Not everybody can have that experience and live to tell about it!

Dovecote, I don't know who you are, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'd recognize your face. That's the way Auto Train has always been. May it always be so!


----------



## I always rode the Southern

FormerOBS said:


> L.E.D. lighting has recently been installed in at least one Auto Train lounge, and there are plans to refit additional cars. I don't know whether the project will include other mods, & I don't know how many cars are to be modified.
> 
> My last trip was memorable. I got a lot of good wishes from a lot of long-time passengers and crew members. I was the beneficiary of countless hugs & kisses from other guys' wives, as well as handshakes from their approving husbands. Not everybody can have that experience and live to tell about it!
> 
> Dovecote, I don't know who you are, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'd recognize your face. That's the way Auto Train has always been. May it always be so!


I too am a long time and frequent auto train rider. The chances are, I have probably had some interaction with you,and I'm sure it was a very positive one as all the OBS crews have been great to outstanding on our trips. Thank you!


----------



## Dovecote

FormerOBS said:


> L.E.D. lighting has recently been installed in at least one Auto Train lounge, and there are plans to refit additional cars. I don't know whether the project will include other mods, & I don't know how many cars are to be modified.
> 
> My last trip was memorable. I got a lot of good wishes from a lot of long-time passengers and crew members. I was the beneficiary of countless hugs & kisses from other guys' wives, as well as handshakes from their approving husbands. Not everybody can have that experience and live to tell about it!
> 
> Dovecote, I don't know who you are, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'd recognize your face. That's the way Auto Train has always been. May it always be so!


I am pretty sure I would recognize you as well riding the AT fifteen times during a four year period. My favorite On Board Chief is John M. Favorite SCA's are Sally, Spencer, and Donnie (sometimes acts as On Board Chief). The Dining Car staff who I don't know by name were always top notch. One gentlemen who always was very personable was an ex Continental Airlines employee.

I hope you are enjoying life after your service on the AT!


----------



## ronkstevens

> *Dear Mr. Ron *
> 
> *Thank you for your interest in Amtrak. *
> 
> *We appreciate your comments and suggestions regarding Auto Train. The comments we receive from customers helps us to calibrate our services and make adjustments where warranted. Your concerns will be noted for management review, and made a part of our permanent records. Amtrak's Operations staff reviews the comments, opinions and suggestions of our customers and this feedback is taken into consideration for future updates. To address your specific concern, we are presently unable to provide any time frames. However, please be assured that we are constantly working to improve our service. *
> 
> *We thank you again for taking the time to write to us and we look forward to serving you aboard Amtrak.*
> 
> *Sincerely,*
> 
> *Amtrak Customer Relations*


----------



## yarrow

ronkstevens said:


> *Dear Mr. Ron *
> 
> *Thank you for your interest in Amtrak. *
> 
> *We appreciate your comments and suggestions regarding Auto Train. The comments we receive from customers helps us to calibrate our services and make adjustments where warranted. Your concerns will be noted for management review, and made a part of our permanent records. Amtrak's Operations staff reviews the comments, opinions and suggestions of our customers and this feedback is taken into consideration for future updates. To address your specific concern, we are presently unable to provide any time frames. However, please be assured that we are constantly working to improve our service. *
> 
> *We thank you again for taking the time to write to us and we look forward to serving you aboard Amtrak.*
> 
> *Sincerely,*
> 
> *Amtrak Customer Relations*
Click to expand...

 gosh, that's the nicest form letter i've seen since the last one i got from my congressperson


----------



## Allypet

ronkstevens said:


> *Dear Mr. Ron *
> 
> *Thank you for your interest in Amtrak. *
> 
> *We appreciate your comments and suggestions regarding Auto Train. The comments we receive from customers helps us to calibrate our services and make adjustments where warranted. Your concerns will be noted for management review, and made a part of our permanent records. Amtrak's Operations staff reviews the comments, opinions and suggestions of our customers and this feedback is taken into consideration for future updates. To address your specific concern, we are presently unable to provide any time frames. However, please be assured that we are constantly working to improve our service. *
> 
> *We thank you again for taking the time to write to us and we look forward to serving you aboard Amtrak.*
> 
> *Sincerely,*
> 
> *Amtrak Customer Relations*
> 
> 
> 
> But at least it's part of the "permanent record"!
Click to expand...


----------



## rrdude

ronkstevens said:


> I had sent an email to Amtrak concerning my AT trip last month, and listed some of the things that made me feel that it was the worst LD experience I have had. It took one week to get an email reply, stating that my email had been forwarded to someone in customer service, but it may take several weeks until I hear from them, due to a high volume of customer comments.


Amen brother, thee worst. What pisses me off too, is how Amtrak mgmt put the crack AT staff on the front line, under staffed, and having to be the ear that the customers yell into.


----------



## rrdude

Dovecote said:


> FormerOBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> L.E.D. lighting has recently been installed in at least one Auto Train lounge, and there are plans to refit additional cars. I don't know whether the project will include other mods, & I don't know how many cars are to be modified.
> 
> My last trip was memorable. I got a lot of good wishes from a lot of long-time passengers and crew members. I was the beneficiary of countless hugs & kisses from other guys' wives, as well as handshakes from their approving husbands. Not everybody can have that experience and live to tell about it!
> 
> Dovecote, I don't know who you are, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'd recognize your face. That's the way Auto Train has always been. May it always be so!
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure I would recognize you as well riding the AT fifteen times during a four year period. My favorite On Board Chief is John M. Favorite SCA's are Sally, Spencer, and Donnie (sometimes acts as On Board Chief). The Dining Car staff who I don't know by name were always top notch. One gentlemen who always was very personable was an ex Continental Airlines employee.
> 
> I hope you are enjoying life after your service on the AT!
Click to expand...

assume u mean John M, true, best Chief I've met on board.


----------



## ronkstevens

rrdude said:


> ronkstevens said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had sent an email to Amtrak concerning my AT trip last month, and listed some of the things that made me feel that it was the worst LD experience I have had. It took one week to get an email reply, stating that my email had been forwarded to someone in customer service, but it may take several weeks until I hear from them, due to a high volume of customer comments.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen brother, thee worst. What pisses me off too, is how Amtrak mgmt put the crack AT staff on the front line, under staffed, and having to be the ear that the customers yell into.
Click to expand...

That's why I wrote Amtrak. The poor crew is doing the best with the cutbacks that have been given to them. I'm sure that their morale has to be suffering because of it, and with people taking their frustrations out on them. I wanted to make management aware that the decisions being made are hurting customer service, and the overall product. I guess I will never know how effective I was, but the effort was made.


----------



## neroden

FormerOBS said:


> L.E.D. lighting has recently been installed in at least one Auto Train lounge, and there are plans to refit additional cars. I don't know whether the project will include other mods, & I don't know how many cars are to be modified.


Well, at least that's something. Maybe it'll be sufficient to lengthen the train next year. We can hope.


----------



## priller

We were first time Amtrak riders taking the Auto Train SB on 6/13. We had purchased our tickets prior to the cuts being announced and we not happy at all about it. But, being our first trip we ending up being very happy travelers. Maybe because we didn't know what we were missing. Here are some of our observations and comments from seasoned AT travels we talked to on board.

There were 4 seatings for the sleeper dining car: 4:30, 6:00, 7:30, 9:00.

+ There were linen table cloths and real silverware. Flowers on the table.

+ The plastic plates were just fine. Actually, at first glance, they appeared to be china.

+ The service was very good, as was the quality of the food.

+ Beer and wine were for sale by the attendant.

There were 3 seating for the coach dining car: 5:00, 7:00, 9:00.

With the consist being coach-cafe-sleeper diner-sleepers, there were a lot of coach passenger using the sleeper diner for breakfast. A 2 car walk vs a 5 or 6 car walk to the coach diners. There was eventually an announcement requesting that passengers please use the same diner you had dinner in.

We checked out the cafe car around 9:00. It was about half full. Not a very inviting place, so we didn't hang around.

The handful of seasoned passengers we talked to mostly had a common observation:

+ Pretty unhappy about the loss off the sleeper lounge.

+ Could care less about no more wine and cheese reception.

+ No wine on the table wasn't a big deal.


----------



## neroden

Hopefully Amtrak will figure out how to deal with the power supply problem through energy efficiency, and get an extra lounge back on. It does not need to be staffed.


----------



## SubwayNut

Dumb question:

I've never ridden the Auto Train but know from reading consists here that the train has an extra dining car used as a Table Car for the coaches, the kitchen below unstaffed has there been any thought to consolidating dining (and having all three dining cars together) so the overflow from both Coach and Sleepers can use the 'Table Car' to avoid needing four sleeping car diner seatings?


----------



## priller

SubwayNut said:


> …. any thought to consolidating dining (and having all three dining cars together) so the overflow from both Coach and Sleepers can use the 'Table Car' to avoid needing four sleeping car diner seatings?


The 4 seatings for the sleeper diner is very new. Even our sleeping car attendant was not aware of it and was very confused when we boarded. Perhaps just an experiment as they continue to fine tune the changes.

Until the changes in March, the coach and sleeper diner menus were different, with the sleeper being more "upscale". For example, the fish entree for coach was cod and for sleepers it was salmon. However, now the menus are the same. So, placing the 3 dining cars together may be an option now. But, somebody much more familiar with the operations and logistics of it would have to comment on it's practically.


----------



## VentureForth

I think the problem here is that there wasn't a $2Mil study done first to determine if they can save $100 per year on engery by switching lightbulbs, thus being able to maintain a single HEP.

I think Neroden, rrdude, and jimhudson should team up, write up a study proposal, make a ton of money and watch Amtrak ignore their suggestions.

Sigh.


----------



## VentureForth

priller said:


> SubwayNut said:
> 
> 
> 
> …. any thought to consolidating dining (and having all three dining cars together) so the overflow from both Coach and Sleepers can use the 'Table Car' to avoid needing four sleeping car diner seatings?
> 
> 
> 
> The 4 seatings for the sleeper diner is very new. Even our sleeping car attendant was not aware of it and was very confused when we boarded. Perhaps just an experiment as they continue to fine tune the changes.
> 
> Until the changes in March, the coach and sleeper diner menus were different, with the sleeper being more "upscale". For example, the fish entree for coach was cod and for sleepers it was salmon. However, now the menus are the same. So, placing the 3 dining cars together may be an option now. But, somebody much more familiar with the operations and logistics of it would have to comment on it's practically.
Click to expand...

That's funny. I just bought cod and salmon at Walmart yesterday and the cod was more expensive.


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## Green Maned Lion

When you buy the really crappy overpriced "food" they sell at Walmart, anything can happen.

Try Aldi.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Best place is Costco for good stuff and good prices! And they treat their employees good unlike Mega-Mart, Whole Paycheck etc!


----------



## FormerOBS

First, I'd like to say I'm glad Priller had a good trip. In my opinion, the real saving grace of the Auto Train through these changes has been the performance of the onboard service crews and the Chiefs, and Priller's comment that the service was "very good" bears that out. Since I recently retired from Auto Train onboard service, and since Priller travelled with my former crew, you can accept or reject that opinion as you wish. I can respond to some of the comments, but it seems that the new service level is a work in progress & subject to change. I would be curious as to the actual passenger counts on Priller's trip. That can make a big difference.

Since there was a fourth dinner seating in the sleeper diner, I am guessing the passenger count was high. When the fourth seating was first implemented, the menu had not yet changed. We were grilling steaks to order, and we were still using Corel "China" which had to be washed. Usually the first seating started on time, then the second started 15 minutes or so late, then the third was an additional 15 minutes late, and the fourth started 90 minutes after the third had started. Often, there was no time for dining car personnel to get a meal for themselves. As the menu has been simplified, it has become more practical (read "possible") to get the dinner seatings done within the shorter time frame. The food now is no longer cooked to order, but it is pretty good. Repositioning of the sleepers has brought about a dramatic increase in the number of meals served in rooms. This has eased some of the pressure on the upstairs diner crew, but has increased the work load for sleeping car attendants and the kitchen crews. There are times when the servers are ready, but the seating can't start on time because there is so much traffic through the diner due to sleeper attendants going to and from the diner to serve meals. The increased number of meals in rooms has sometimes made it possible to dispense with the fourth seating. Coach passengers who decide they want to eat in the sleeper diner make a difficult situation worse. Sometimes it's hard for the onboard staff to handle these situations diplomatically. A friend told me she recently asked a man for his meal coupon, and instead he flashed a badge. A badge does not create an additional seat in a diner that is already fully reserved. He said he was a security agent and she said that's fine, but he still needs a meal coupon. The situation ended with the passenger vowing to report her for something or other. When she told me this story, I told her (jokingly) that she should have told him "If you're Security, then make yourself useful by helping me keep these coach passengers out of the sleeper diner."

By the time I retired a couple weeks ago, we were still using linen table cloths for most meals. Slick, nonabsorbent butcher paper was tried unsuccessfully, and another softer, more absorbent paper table cloth was also tried. I recently talked to a dining car employee (not on the crew that travelled south on the 13th), and she said they had both cloth and paper tablecloths on their last trip, and the crew chose to use the cloth ones. When to use which tablecloths is a question that management has not addressed. As for the flowers, they are artificial, and have been so for years on the Auto Train.

The plastic plates are of high quality --- such high quality that passengers are sometimes incredulous when we have told them we throw them away. I personally have doubts about the wisdom of this, from an environmental standpoint. On the positive side, they make a tray of food much lighter to carry. The disposable plastic coffee mugs are a bit small and hard to hold, for a grown man with large fingers.

The sale of alcohol in the diner has created a few practical problems. Previously, the LSAD was better able to concentrate on direct service to the passenger; now the LSAD spends a lot of precious time just making change and ringing up sales.

The coach dining cars are located directly behind the engines for a very good reason: fumes and noise from the engines on the southbound run. Northbound, it's not so much of a problem because the car next to the engines is a transition dorm (crew car), and its end door is at a low level, where the fumes don't get so bad. But the coach diner has a high-level end door, and fumes were always a problem. This is lessened by the fact that those particular cars now run with their high-level end doors sealed shut. Additionally, it is very rare that the entire seating area of that car is used. Most coach passengers dine in the primary coach diner, closer to the working kitchen. The extra coach diner is for overflow when the passenger count requires it, and the end closest to the engines is rarely used. So if the coach diner were moved to the middle of the train adjacent to the sleeper diner, the coach passengers in the car closest to the engines would be subjected to engine noise and fumes throughout the trip. Other trains carry baggage cars to serve as a "buffer" between engines and occupied cars. No baggage cars on the Auto Train.

As for the sleeping car attendant who wasn't informed about four dinner seatings on that particular trip, that kind of miscommunication sometimes happens. Many of the recent changes have been implemented without accompanying written memos or directions from management, so the onboard crews are often winging it. But I know those folks, and you'll have to look pretty hard to find better.

Hope this addresses everybody's concerns. What I say here is based on my years of Auto Train experience, but I can't be too sure about the current situation. For that, I have to rely on occasional conversations with my former co-workers.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Always appreciate your posts! Boots on the ground and info from people who actually work on the trains is better than PR BS from Flacks in WAS trying to cover the ass of the Cut Squad and the Amtrak Suits!


----------



## Paulus

If you don't mind, what was the life expectancy of the china on the Auto Train? I came across an off-hand mention that china cups had a life expectancy of ten trips on British Rail journeys and that got me to wondering if the price of replacing that was a major factor in Amtrak's decision and whether Amtrak had a differing life expectancy (I would expect shorter due to longer trips and worse track conditions).


----------



## FormerOBS

I don't recall anyone ever telling me what the loss rate was for the China cups & plates, but I never thought it was very great. The plates were actually not china. China is a fired clay product; but those plates & bowls were Corelle, which is actually a type of glass. When it broke, it often shattered into hundreds of tiny, sharp pieces. I always said it was unsuitable for dining car service for that reason, and I understand somebody in the Company was looking into a replacement when the decision was made to go the disposable route. The cups were not made of the same material. They appeared to be fired clay. They would sometimes chip. If the chip was small and not around the lip, we would continue to use the cup. If British Rail got rid of every cup that got a small chip in it, then I can imagine 10 trips might be a reasonable figure; but I'm certain our dinnerware lasted a lot longer than that. Sorry I can't give you reliable numbers.


----------



## Allypet

FormerOBS said:


> First, I'd like to say I'm glad Priller had a good trip. In my opinion, the real saving grace of the Auto Train through these changes has been the performance of the onboard service crews and the Chiefs, and Priller's comment that the service was "very good" bears that out. Since I recently retired from Auto Train onboard service, and since Priller travelled with my former crew, you can accept or reject that opinion as you wish. I can respond to some of the comments, but it seems that the new service level is a work in progress & subject to change. I would be curious as to the actual passenger counts on Priller's trip. That can make a big difference.
> 
> Since there was a fourth dinner seating in the sleeper diner, I am guessing the passenger count was high. When the fourth seating was first implemented, the menu had not yet changed. We were grilling steaks to order, and we were still using Corel "China" which had to be washed. Usually the first seating started on time, then the second started 15 minutes or so late, then the third was an additional 15 minutes late, and the fourth started 90 minutes after the third had started. Often, there was no time for dining car personnel to get a meal for themselves. As the menu has been simplified, it has become more practical (read "possible") to get the dinner seatings done within the shorter time frame. The food now is no longer cooked to order, but it is pretty good. Repositioning of the sleepers has brought about a dramatic increase in the number of meals served in rooms. This has eased some of the pressure on the upstairs diner crew, but has increased the work load for sleeping car attendants and the kitchen crews. There are times when the servers are ready, but the seating can't start on time because there is so much traffic through the diner due to sleeper attendants going to and from the diner to serve meals. The increased number of meals in rooms has sometimes made it possible to dispense with the fourth seating. Coach passengers who decide they want to eat in the sleeper diner make a difficult situation worse. Sometimes it's hard for the onboard staff to handle these situations diplomatically. A friend told me she recently asked a man for his meal coupon, and instead he flashed a badge. A badge does not create an additional seat in a diner that is already fully reserved. He said he was a security agent and she said that's fine, but he still needs a meal coupon. The situation ended with the passenger vowing to report her for something or other. When she told me this story, I told her (jokingly) that she should have told him "If you're Security, then make yourself useful by helping me keep these coach passengers out of the sleeper diner."
> 
> By the time I retired a couple weeks ago, we were still using linen table cloths for most meals. Slick, nonabsorbent butcher paper was tried unsuccessfully, and another softer, more absorbent paper table cloth was also tried. I recently talked to a dining car employee (not on the crew that travelled south on the 13th), and she said they had both cloth and paper tablecloths on their last trip, and the crew chose to use the cloth ones. When to use which tablecloths is a question that management has not addressed. As for the flowers, they are artificial, and have been so for years on the Auto Train.
> 
> The plastic plates are of high quality --- such high quality that passengers are sometimes incredulous when we have told them we throw them away. I personally have doubts about the wisdom of this, from an environmental standpoint. On the positive side, they make a tray of food much lighter to carry. The disposable plastic coffee mugs are a bit small and hard to hold, for a grown man with large fingers.
> 
> The sale of alcohol in the diner has created a few practical problems. Previously, the LSAD was better able to concentrate on direct service to the passenger; now the LSAD spends a lot of precious time just making change and ringing up sales.
> 
> The coach dining cars are located directly behind the engines for a very good reason: fumes and noise from the engines on the southbound run. Northbound, it's not so much of a problem because the car next to the engines is a transition dorm (crew car), and its end door is at a low level, where the fumes don't get so bad. But the coach diner has a high-level end door, and fumes were always a problem. This is lessened by the fact that those particular cars now run with their high-level end doors sealed shut. Additionally, it is very rare that the entire seating area of that car is used. Most coach passengers dine in the primary coach diner, closer to the working kitchen. The extra coach diner is for overflow when the passenger count requires it, and the end closest to the engines is rarely used. So if the coach diner were moved to the middle of the train adjacent to the sleeper diner, the coach passengers in the car closest to the engines would be subjected to engine noise and fumes throughout the trip. Other trains carry baggage cars to serve as a "buffer" between engines and occupied cars. No baggage cars on the Auto Train.
> 
> As for the sleeping car attendant who wasn't informed about four dinner seatings on that particular trip, that kind of miscommunication sometimes happens. Many of the recent changes have been implemented without accompanying written memos or directions from management, so the onboard crews are often winging it. But I know those folks, and you'll have to look pretty hard to find better.
> 
> Hope this addresses everybody's concerns. What I say here is based on my years of Auto Train experience, but I can't be too sure about the current situation. For that, I have to rely on occasional conversations with my former co-workers.


FormerOBS, thank you for your service. You will be missed on the AT! I'm sorry that I'm not going to ride with you in July. Enjoy retirement!


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## priller

FormerOBS said:


> I can respond to some of the comments, but it seems that the new service level is a work in progress & subject to change. I would be curious as to the actual passenger counts on Priller's trip. That can make a big difference.


I don't know the passenger counts, but there were 156 vehicles. Perhaps a rough estimate of passenger headcount could be estimated from that.

The 4 seatings were all exactly on time. The dining car staff was having their meals before the 9:00 seating. I don't think there were many passengers coming for the 9:00.

I do have to add that we so impressed with how friendly and efficient the entire crew was, we are now considering taking a longer CZ or EB trip next year. Turns out Amtrak is a pretty nice way to travel!!! Never knew! 

Heading back north on the AT, on Friday. Looking forward to it.


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## FormerOBS

You came south with crew 5. You'll be traveling north with crew 1. I've worked with all those folks & can tell you your northbound trip should be as pleasant as the southbound. Most of the crew members will be new to you, but you may see a few of the same faces if they are on the extra board or making an extra trip.

At most times of the year, the passenger count is about 2 passengers for each vehicle. In the summer time, the ratio changes because there are a greater number of relatively large families traveling in high-capacity vehicles (vans & SUV's). A 2 to 1 ratio means about 300 passengers. Since it's family vacation time, the total was probably more like 350-400 passengers.

On the Auto Train, the crew members generally share the same philosophy. It's best expressed as I used to tell new hires:

"You and I are stuck on this train until we get home two days from now. We can spend it having fun or we can spend it being miserable. I intend to have fun because I don't relish spending the next couple days being miserable. There is nothing about this job that precludes having fun. We can do the job safely, thoroughly, and correctly and still have fun doing it. If you don't want to have fun, I don't want to work with you, so I suggest you mark off now. If you do want to have a good time, I'm glad to have you here."

I never had a trainee take me at my word and mark off. I can't say I was always the best person to work with. I had my bad days just like everybody else in the world. But I always tried to be as upbeat as I could. I think you'll find that most of the Auto Train personnel feel as I always have. We always tried to make it an "open clique". Everybody was always welcome to join.


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## FormerOBS

Just a little tidbit of information that will illustrate the fact that I'm gradually adapting to retirement (i.e., I have too much time on my hands). I

I went over a copy of the Auto Train seniority roster and counted up all the accumulated months of experience of all the onboard service personnel as of mid-March, 2014. This includes Onboard service only; no Mechanical or Station personnel, and no T&E crew. My totals may be slightly off because one of our Chiefs is not counted because the Chiefs' seniority roster is separate. There could be some periods of illness or approved extended leave that isn't accounted for, and it's possible I could have made some simple math errors. Anyway, as of mid-March, I counted a total of 2,076 years and eight months of total Auto Train service among the Auto Train onboard staff. In calendar years, that would take us back to the days when the years were all "B.C." According to that roster, the greatest seniority for an individual was 31 years, 4-1/2 months (5 individuals). There is also one chief who worked on other trains before the Auto Train was taken over by Amtrak. His total is around 36 years. I don't think the onboard staff includes any veterans of the original Auto Train, although we did have a few until a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure we still have some of the Mechanical staff who are veterans of Mr. Garfield's original Auto Train.

As I said, I obviously have too much time on my hands.


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## Ryan

That's awesome. You were truly a great asset to Amtrak, and hopefully all of those trainees are following in your footsteps.

Thanks for all of the information that you share here, as well.


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## Allypet

Thank you to all the AT crew, and especially you FormerOBS. The Auto Train is a unique animal and the regular riders and the crew are what make this train fun to ride.


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## FormerOBS

Priller:

You should be getting to the Sanford station about now. Be sure to tell us about your return trip when you get to Lorton.


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## rrdude

Green Maned Lion said:


> When you buy the really crappy overpriced "food" they sell at Walmart, anything can happen.
> 
> Try Aldi.


Aldi? Aldi? Is that a joke? How that chain even survives is beyond me! You want variety and depth of choice? Don't go to Aldi, it's kind of like a poor-mans Trader Joe's. "Don't like the brand of peaches they have? Tough cookies, you only have ONE choice."

I think Aldi is thee worst........ Their brand packaging is deceptive, their choices non-existent, and house brand quality is well, "not".


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## Ryan

Wegmans for life.


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## Green Maned Lion

Their house brand quality is nonpareil.


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## priller

FormerOBS said:


> Priller:
> 
> You should be getting to the Sanford station about now. Be sure to tell us about your return trip when you get to Lorton.


I'm back! We were an hour late leaving Sanford. One of the sleeper cars had to be swapped out. From what I heard, none of the toilets were working and they were not able to isolate the problem. So, it had to be replaced. All of the sleeper attendants jumped in to get it ready. With some other movement delays, we ended up being 1.5 hours late getting to Lorton.

We had a fun sleeper attendant (Kevin) that kept things interesting.

Recall the passenger count being around 450. 13 passenger cars and 26 auto racks.

There were 3 sleeper dinner seatings vs 4 on the southbound last Friday. Some of the other passengers commented on how overworked the dining car staff seemed to be and gave them a lot of credit for the job they do.

There didn't appear to be coach passengers using the sleeper diner for breakfast this time. That helped with the breakfast rush.

No other cutback related changes to report.

Overall a good trip. Looking forward to the next one!


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## FormerOBS

Got a couple texts from a friend. As of about 2:30 pm yesterday (i.e., normally the beginning of boarding), the OBS crew in Sanford had not been given a definite word on whether the 5242 sleeper was being successfully repaired, or being cut out. It was after 3 pm when the switching was actually done to replace the car. All available OBS crew members helped to get the replacement car in shape. This was Crew 1, and they're very good (not to imply anything negative about crews 2 - 5). Departure was scheduled for 4 pm, and I know they didn't manage that, but I understand they were underway well before 5 pm.

There are 4 Kevins on the Auto Train seniority roster, so I don't know who that was, but they're all good guys.

I don't know who was working in the coach diner. Crew 1's regular upstairs sleeper diner crew consists of Debbie, Marc, Nancy, and Karen. I think all of them were there on this trip. Just for fun, I added up their total seniority. Between the four of them, they have 89 years and 5 months of experience working on the Auto Train. The "Junior" member of the group is Nancy, with 15 years, 9 months.

Chief Danny S. generally keeps things pretty well organized.

Glad you enjoyed the trip!


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## I always rode the Southern

Interesting. On our northbound trip in april we had 549 passengers and only 3 dinner seatings. So our crew did even more of an amazing job than I realized.



priller said:


> Recall the passenger count being around 450. 13 passenger cars and 26 auto racks.
> 
> There were 3 sleeper dinner seatings vs 4 on the southbound last Friday. Some of the other passengers commented on how overworked the dining car staff seemed to be and gave them a lot of credit for the job they do.
> 
> There didn't appear to be coach passengers using the sleeper diner for breakfast this time. That helped with the breakfast rush.
> 
> No other cutback related changes to report.
> 
> Overall a good trip. Looking forward to the next one!


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## FormerOBS

Depends on the differing ratios of coach passengers compared to sleeper passengers on those two runs. If the sleeper section was heavy & coach section light, that could explain it (less available seating in the sleeper diner). Also, there may have been more meals served in rooms when you travelled, freeing up seats so that the 4th seating wasn't needed. Hard to know without a more thorough breakdown of the numbers.


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## jis

Feeding 549 passengers in three seatings in two Diners is quite an amazing feat in my opinion. Kudos to the awesome crew for pulling such feats off on a day in and day out basis on the Autortrain.


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## I always rode the Southern

FormerOBS said:


> Depends on the differing ratios of coach passengers compared to sleeper passengers on those two runs. If the sleeper section was heavy & coach section light, that could explain it (less available seating in the sleeper diner). Also, there may have been more meals served in rooms when you travelled, freeing up seats so that the 4th seating wasn't needed. Hard to know without a more thorough breakdown of the numbers.


Onboard announcement from my notes: sleepers-196

coach-353

vehicles-317


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## jis

That's 49 per seating (if all came to the Diner)! The chef had to produce that much food in the time covered by the four seatings even if a proportion of them were consumed in the rooms rather than in the Diner. That is a lot.... basically full capacity.


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## FormerOBS

Lots of meals in rooms or at coach seats. No other way to do it. In any case, the kitchen staff has just as many meals to cook, no matter who serves them or where they are consumed.


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## Big Iron

RyanS said:


> Wegmans for life.


Glad to hear, RVR is getting a Wegman's........An Aldi too.

Zweigle dog anyone??


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## jis

FormerOBS said:


> Lots of meals in rooms or at coach seats. No other way to do it. In any case, the kitchen staff has just as many meals to cook, no matter who serves them or where they are consumed.


Exactly! Must keep the SCAs quite busy. How are the at seat Coach passengers handled? They pick up their stuff at a counter in the Diner and take it back to their seat? Never traveled by Coach in the Autotrain and I guess it shows.


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## rrdude

Green Maned Lion said:


> Their house brand quality is nonpareil.


Agree, it IS without equal, NOTHING is equally as poor or tasteless as Aldi house brand. If my last name were Aldi, I'd change it, rather than be associated with their slop.


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## trainman74

rrdude said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Their house brand quality is nonpareil.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it IS without equal, NOTHING is equally as poor or tasteless as Aldi house brand. If my last name were Aldi, I'd change it, rather than be associated with their slop.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure GML was responding to the post directly above his, in which RyanS mentioned Wegmans.

I can't speak for Wegmans, but I grew up with Publix back when they were only in Florida, and their store-brand products were good. Now that I'm in Southern California and shop at Ralphs, I've found most Kroger store-brand products I've tried to be fine.


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## neroden

Wegmans store brand is extremely high quality, better than most name brands.


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## FormerOBS

jis:

Coach passengers who are able to go to the diner don't need meals at seats, and there are plenty of seats in the coach diner because they have the second car (used as a table car) for extra seats. The seating shortage is in the sleeper section. Meals at seats for disabled coach passengers have always been handled in the same way they would be handled on any other train. There is one person assigned to serve all meals at seats for disabled coach passengers. There is very rarely any extra help available for this coach attendant because all the other people who manned the coach doors at boarding time are working in the coach diner, so it sometimes happens that a lot of meals have to be served by this one employee. Hot meal trays are not given to the passengers to take to their seats because of the potential for spillage. Hot meal trays should always be carried by a person whose job it is to do so; not by a casual passenger who may not be accustomed to the task, the motion of the train, etc.

I realize passengers often carry their purchases by themselves from the lounge car to their seats on the Auto Train and on other trains. Some may think there is a contradiction here. But lounge car purchases are generally smaller, lighter, and not so likely to be extremely hot (coffee & tea being the exception). Carrying a loaded tray requires two hands. Also, lounge purchases are usually wrapped, so if a lounge car purchase is accidentally dropped it doesn't make so much of a mess. In short, employees are more likely to do it safely and efficiently than passengers are.

Until we got the Superliners in the 1990's, Auto Train had a buffet system. Passengers slid their trays along a tray line, picking up their salads, beverages, entrees, and desserts. At the end of the tray line, an EMPLOYEE picked up the tray and carried it to the table. Even in the days of the buffet, passengers were never required to carry their own tray.


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## FormerOBS

Wegman's stores are as big as small cities. Shopping in one requires way too much walking if you're shopping for a week's groceries. But I do like to go in and get a buffet lunch, or to buy one or two items that don't require too much walking. They have an incredible variety.


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## priller

FormerOBS said:


> Coach passengers who are able to go to the diner don't need meals at seats, and there are plenty of seats in the coach diner because they have the second car (used as a table car) for extra seats. The seating shortage is in the sleeper section.


Last Saturday morning, there was an announcement at 6:45a stating that the coach diners were full and asked that anybody who had not had breakfast stay seated until there was another announcement. Maybe just a rush or lack of a cafe/lounge being adjacent to serve as a holding area. Or, the additional coach passengers created by adding the additional coach car is a tipping point for what 2 diners can accommodate?


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## Green Maned Lion

rrdude said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Their house brand quality is nonpareil.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it IS without equal, NOTHING is equally as poor or tasteless as Aldi house brand. If my last name were Aldi, I'd change it, rather than be associated with their slop.
Click to expand...

You must have tried the wrong items. Their house brand chocolate is a close second to Godiva as far as large brands go. Their tomato ketchup, which is high in both cinnamon and cardamom(!) is amazing. Their Dijon mustard, actually from Dijon, is spectacular. Their glass jar fruit preserves are scrumptious- pity they don't do marmalade. Their meat quality is better than anything you have here in jersey at up to twice the price. Their sparkling juices are AMAZING.

And yes, Wegmans is also good- comparable until you factor in price, really.


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## FormerOBS

The coach diner crew would have set up as many tables/seats as they could serve with the available crew. Once that many people are in there, there's no place else available to serve anybody else until some seats are vacated & tables cleaned & reset. With the lounge car not being adjacent to the coach diners, there is no place for people to stand except in the coach aisles. Most of the time, the peak demand is some time around 6:30 to 7:00 am in the coach diner, and some time around 7:00 am in the sleeper diner. Coach passengers tend to get up earlier. I think that's because the earliest risers start making noise and waking up their neighbors, so everybody is awake fairly soon after the diner opens. In the sleepers, early risers aren't so likely to awaken their neighbors. You said the coach diner was filled at 6:45, and that timing conforms exactly to the usual pattern. If the servers in the sleeper diner needed to make a similar announcement, it probably was made around 7:00 am. Additional seating was probably available around 7:00 in the coach diner, and all passengers were probably served by about 8:00 am in both coach and sleeper areas. I think you'll agree that breakfast time is very intense on that train. We spend all evening feeding people dinner; but breakfast for the same number of people is usually completed within the 6 am to 8 am time frame.


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## William W.

I fear that the eventual end result of these cuts, and those to follow, is the loss of included meals for sleeping car passengers (across all routes), or perhaps some items being included, and others being offered as an up charge. If this were to happen, without a corresponding reduction in ticket prices, I'd probably have to stop riding Amtrak. I know this sounds extreme, but if I remember correctly, there were a few members of Congress who attacked Amtrak for "giving away food" even though the price of the meals are included in the ticket price.


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## neroden

So, Fred Frailey pinpoints Tom Kirk as the source of the trouble on the Auto Train. (Not by name, but the deduction is unavoidable.) However, given the idiotic cuts on other trains (piles of garbage instead of using the automatic dishwashers installed in the kitchens), one really has to blame Mark Murphy. Murphy's background is entirely behind-the-scenes and I suspect he doesn't understand marketing at all; but then the same seems to be true of Kirk.

Maybe Moe Savoy, who handles most of Amtrak's long-distance trains which go to Chicago, or Mark Chandler, who handles the ones which go to Los Angeles, will be more understanding of the interests of customers.

Boardman noted in the June Amtrak Ink that the "customer service index" was dropping lately. No ****, Sherlock, you cut the quality of service.


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## jis

Of course in a typical large corporate bureaucracy (Notice I did not say government.... this is equally true in most large private sector outfits too) such falls in index would be blamed on the front line workers rather than on the brilliant management that could make no mistake unfortunately. The message will typically be to work harder and smarter etc. etc. and of course everyone will become more cynical and just ignore the bovine scatology and go on with life the best they can.


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## Bob Dylan

Does Murphys Law apply here? (Perhaps it could be Kirks Law when it comes to the Auto Train!)


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## Paulus

I'm not sure how useful that customer service index is; it's remained largely flat for decades. It is interesting to note that complaints and compliments, of all types, are predominantly regarding the long distance trains.


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## Big Iron

Paulus said:


> I'm not sure how useful that customer service index is; it's remained largely flat for decades. It is interesting to note that complaints and compliments, of all types, are predominantly regarding the long distance trains.


Where can this customer service index information be found? I'd be interested in looking at it.


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## FormerOBS

I'm not aware that Customer Service Index (C.S.I.) scores are made public. They are a gauge of service quality, based primarily on customer feedback. They were generally pretty high for years on the Auto Train. I haven't seen recent scores.


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## Paulus

FormerOBS said:


> I'm not aware that Customer Service Index (C.S.I.) scores are made public. They are a gauge of service quality, based primarily on customer feedback. They were generally pretty high for years on the Auto Train. I haven't seen recent scores.


National overall is reported in every monthly performance report as well as in the annual reports; the detailed Surfliner one is publicly available each month as part of the LOSSAN group agenda.


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## jis

Just had a very nice and relaxed dinner on the Auto Train. They have three sittings each two hours long. They are using half the upper level of the adjacent lounge car as overflow for Sleeper Diner patrons. Seems to work out nicely as far as dinner goes.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Allypet

Thanks jis. If it's no too much trouble can you post the consist?


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## FormerOBS

Jis:

Interesting. Are you traveling northbound or southbound? Do you know passenger counts? Did they have an extra waiter to work the lounge tables? This is something the OBS staff were told several months ago would never be provided, but mgmt. MAY have relented.


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## Ryan

From his comments on Bookface, s/b, 510. Hopefully he doesn't mind me passing that along.


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## jis

Ryan, no problem. I have no idea about the number of crew, who's serving what and what the exact consist is. I usually don't concern myself with those things. I am just concentrating on trying to finish a fascinating book on the geographical history of religion in India covering the last 5000 years.

The few things that I noticed in passing is that there are two Deluxe Sleepers - Palm Spring and Graham Claytor, and four regular sleepers, plus the Trans Dorm of course. I am in South Carolina (5345) and the adjacent car is North Dakota.

From the announcement earlier the car count is 15 passenger and service cars and 25 auto carriers. I have not been forward to the coach section so have no idea what is there.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Allypet

I'm on 53 right now. The AT consists of 6 sleepers and a sleeper diner, one lounge car (which had no seats) 4 coaches and 2 coach diners, and a crew sleeper. We have 482 passengers and 192 vehicles.

Sleepers had 4 dinning times, while coach has 3. I picked the 7:30 which was delayed about 10 minutes. Small bottles of water are still available as is coffee. Dinner was not bad. The dinner car crew worked hard. The were very busy to do 4 sittings, and they did a great job. The only draw back is I felt confined to my bedroom. I used to love to sit in the lounge car and talk to people. Every time I went to the lounge there were no seat. Much different then last year.

The best part is I got to meet FormerOBS at the station! He is a knowledgable AT crew member and his dedication is apparent. Amtrak lost a valuable member when he retired. Thanks for your service, you are sorely missed!


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## FormerOBS

Great to meet you! have a good (& safe) vacation!


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## Allypet

Breakfast had reduced choices of cereal and no bananas. There were several announcements that the diners for both coach and sleepers were closed due to overcrowding at different times. Plastic was used through out dinner and breakfast, but table covers were cloth.

I did see something interesting and maybe FormerOBS can shed some light on it. In Sanford there were 2 dining cars on the track when we pulled in. After they split the train it looked like they were moving items like table pads from the dining cars on our consist to these other 2 cars and they were making the tables in the new cars. Is this a common turnaround activity to have a fully stocked diner?


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## OBS

It sounds like the inbound diners were being replaced with the other diners. Thus everything has to be transferred.


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## FormerOBS

Exactly right. When a car has to go thru its routine maintenance cycle, this is done in Sanford because that's the primary maintenance point for Auto Train. But Lorton is the primary restocking point. If one car is to be cut out, the crew tries to pack up as much stock as possible before arrival into Sanford, but this can be difficult because they are often still serving breakfast at the time of arrival. Cutouts are a pain in the neck, but they're a necessary part of the operation. The new car is set on the second track, as close as possible to the one to be cut out. All available O.B.S. crew members are called to help with the transfer of stock so the new car can be gotten ready for the northbound leg. Cutting out sleepers, transition sleepers, and lounges is handled the same way. Special moves like this aren't necessary for coaches because there's so little stock to be transferred. The transfer can take up to an hour, but is often less if all crew members help, and that is usually the case on the Auto Train. I think the spirit of teamwork is stronger on that train than on other trains. A real problem can develop when more than one car is cut out, or when the decision to cut a car is made late. The time taken to do these things is taken out of the crew's turnaround (layover) time, which means the crew wants to finish as quickly as possible. As far as I know, the Auto Train crew has the shortest layover time of any Amtrak long distance train crew.


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## Porter20

I apologize for resurrecting this old thread - but as an occasional Amtrak rider (I have access to limited routes) - I will give you my thoughts. I normally spend time on the forum around my trips; but unfortunately due to my wife's excess FF miles, I couldn't convince her to spend $$ on train tickets for vacation this year. However, when my brother called and asked if I could bring his car from Florida to Delaware this Thanksgiving; I jumped at the idea to return on the AT (especially on his dime).

So when I was looking at booking the ticket, the price seemed a little more than when we booked two years ago. Although to be fair, I think we booked at a time where kids rode for free so that affected it a bit and it was before they added all the cost together and they had two types of cars to choose from so what I was looking at was not really apples to apples. I was actually checking out the menu and surprised to just see one menu listed and it looked quite different - I had remembered a sleeping car menu and a coach menu but couldn't locate them. That's when I logged on to AU to figure what was going on. I have read through all 22 pages and found it very informative.

Not having experienced a trip on the train yet I can't comment on the overcrowding or lack of lounge car. As far as wine and cheese and free wine with dinner, it was a nice perk but I'm comfortable buying my own wine at dinner just as I have done on the Silvers. My big disappointment was the menu - while not trying any of the food - it doesn't look all that great compared to past experiences. And ultimately, the one way trip is more expensive than our round trip flights on one of the busiest travel times of the year.

We were talking about an AT trip next summer; but I'm gonna let this trip be the barometer. I realize you save miles on your car and wear and tear; but if you can drive your family, eat a really nice dinner and stay in an upscale hotel for half the price of the AT - it becomes hard to justify. So yes, I guess you could add me into the casual rider who has bragged how cool the AT has been in the past and now may consider other options going forward.


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## FormerOBS

Porter20:

Ride with an open mind. Most of the onboard staff are the same folks who have been with the Auto Train for years. They're not happy with many of these changes, but they are still happy to serve you as best they can.

Tom


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## Porter20

Tom - I will. And I'm sure it will be fine. And to me, the people is what really has made Amtrak successful recently. Most handle their job with professionalism, care and concern that you don't see in ither areas of the travel industry. I'm not as high maintenance that my post made me sound. Plus the best part - I get to start the day with lunch at the Willowtree in Sanford.


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## FormerOBS

Love the Willow Tree. But I never ate there very often because they serve beer & I didn't want our passengers to see me eating there & jump to the conclusion that I might be drinking before a trip. I usually ate at the Colonial Room. If you go to the Colonial, say hello to Michelle and check the daily specials. If the lamb shanks or the trout almondine are among the specials, you ought to try them.

Tom


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## Bob Dylan

FormerOBS said:


> Love the Willow Tree. But I never ate there very often because they serve beer & I didn't want our passengers to see me eating there & jump to the conclusion that I might be drinking before a trip. I usually ate at the Colonial Room. If you go to the Colonial, say hello to Michelle and check the daily specials. If the lamb shanks or the trout almondine are among the specials, you ought to try them.
> 
> Tom


Sounds delicious Tom! Reminds one of what a Diner used to offer on the LD Trains!!


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## I always rode the Southern

The biggest disappointment for me regarding the auto train cuts is the loss of the signature steak to "slow braised beef sirloin steak" which translates to 2 flavorless chunks of pot roast with mashed potatoes instead of baked.  We have taken 4 trips since the cuts and the only thing that has kept us from bailing is the effort and attitude of the OBS. I can't say enough good things about the little things they have done to help make it a pleasurable trip in spite of the cuts.


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## MajorWoody

I'm late to the thread, having just found this site. We have taken the AT about a dozen times over the last 10 years. We always get either a room or a roomette, never rode coach. We are a bit concerned about the cutbacks, and have a few comments.

1 - The wine & cheese tasting, I seem to recall the woman who ran it several years back told us it was done to promote the Virginia vineyards, and the wine was provided by those vineyards, therefore not really costing anything to Amtrak. Furthermore, it only lasted an hour or so, and I can not imagine, even factoring in labor costs, that is was a real financial drain. Can any of the more learned posters on this board clarify if the wine was in fact provided, or did Amtrak actually pay for it?

2 - In regards to the combined menu, it has seemed that the food quality has dropped over the last 10 years. I seem to recall filet mignon years ago, and being pleasantly surprised at how good the dinner was. The last few trips (prior to these cutbacks) it has seemed to be more generic and of a lesser quality (flat iron steak?). I don't mind paying for wine at dinner, but if I am going to pay, it would be nice if they actually had some decent choices, instead of the Sutters Home rotgut that they sell in the bar car, although I heard last Tuesdays Vintage was spectacular!!!!! Seriously, if they are looking to make money, then sell a decent bottle of wine, I know there are folks who would pay for it.

3 - As to the actual sleeper lounge car, I can somewhat understand why it is being reduced to a combined car. I never really saw people spending money in there, especially considering the number of people on the train. It was nice to have a place to sit and socialize though, and we met some interesting people in there over the years. It was annoying though, to spend money on a cocktail, and find the booths and table occupied by folks who were not spending a dime at the bar, or bringing their own refreshments. I can imagine it will be much worse now having to share it with coach passengers.

4 - As others have posted, the long walks, combined with the advanced age of many AT passengers, seems like a disaster waiting to happen. We always joke that we are the youngsters on the train, even though we are approaching 60. I have said in jest that the average age of AT passengers is around 75 years of age, give or take a few centuries.

5 - One of the reasons we always get a room, or roomette (depending on availability), is it was considered first class, and the meals and amenities were better. Now with these cuts, it seems that other than a little more cabin space, there is not much of a difference, except in price. Having never rode in coach on the AT, I really can't comment on how the journey is. But it has always appeared that the coach passengers often look like zombies upon disembarking, while the sleeper cabin passengers seem somewhat better rested.


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## Ryan

Thanks for your perspective.

I would suggest spending a night in coach before saying that it seems there isn't much difference. Private space (albeit small) and a flat surface to sleep on are a HUGE deal and well worth the cost.


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## jis

For what it was worth, there were flowers in the Diner the last time I took the Auto Train in late August, well after the latest cuts were in place. I had traveled once previously a few weeks earlier, also after the latest cuts, when there were no flowers.

I think anyone that was paying the huge fare difference just for a free steak, a flower in a vase and a space in a lounge has got to be deluded.  I couldn't care less what the food was like as long as I get my private space with a good flat surface to lie down on.


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## Anderson

I will say, on the topic of the lounge cars, it would be nice if they could provide some socializing space without having to "blow" a full car on non-revenue space. A car that's a lounge upstairs and has a few sleeper rooms downstairs, or even a half-and-half upstairs, would be a nice compromise if not for the fact that it would (A) cost money to make happen and (B) make a mess of Amtrak's standardized equipment situation.


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## Palmland

Why doesn't Amtrak offer a 'premium' dinner for an extra charge. For those who like a good, rather than mediocre, meal I am sure they would pay the extra. Same for a 'premium' wine. Those on vacation do have discretionary money (especially on auto train 1st class) and want to feel like it's a special occasion. On a Disney cruise where meals are included, they charged $65 for a meal in the fine dining 'Remy' restaurant. For our family reunion big event it was well worth it. The extra income might even pay for another dining car server on AT to make it easier to provide better service.

Taking it one step further, would enough people pay an extra fare to bring back a sleeper lounge with a specialty dining area (maybe one of those unused CCC cars)? With the twice the number of sleeper passengers than the CS you would think Amtrak could provide more 1st class dining and lounge space, especially if it was branded as a premium experience - for a price.


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## Bob Dylan

Excellent suggestion, hence it doesn't stand a chance of happening in this era of nickel and dime cuts!


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## jis

Palmland said:


> Taking it one step further, would enough people pay an extra fare to bring back a sleeper lounge with a specialty dining area (maybe one of those unused CCC cars)? With the twice the number of sleeper passengers than the CS you would think Amtrak could provide more 1st class dining and lounge space, especially if it was branded as a premium experience - for a price.


Basically it is not shortage of cars that caused the lounge to be removed. It was limitation of HEP and the desire to increase revenue by adding one more Coach. If there really was demand for lounge service wherein the users of the lounge would pay the equivalent of the Coach fare for an entire Coach full of passengers then this theory would work. but I somehow doubt that there is the willingness to pay that much for just getting a lounge seat that may be available for a small portion of the journey for ones use. The Auto Train is completely maxed out on the number of cars that can be handled. The Coast Startlight is far from it. So those two are really not comparable.


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## Palmland

In most businesses, if there is more demand (no, of passengers which requiries more cars) than supply (Max car limit) you raise prices, at least in high demand periods. Airlines artificially limit supply (no planes/seats) so they can raise prices. A higher fare requires better levels of service as in first class amenities.


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## jis

Not really. If prices are being raised due to just more demand, there is no reason to provide any more service if there already is demand for the current service such as to be able to raise prices and have it stick without losing clientele.

Airlines routinely raise prices and fees without providing any better or more service.

So I guess I am contesting your theory on demand pricing and its relationship to service quality.  I think there is much real world evidence to suggest that your theory is not valid in many cases.


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## Palmland

Guess we'll never know, JLS, but AT could certainly be a case study in some MBA program.


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## FormerOBS

Major Woody:

If you follow this thread all the way beck to the beginning, many of your questions will be answered. Sorry, but I can't cite chapter & verse & time & date for you, but I'm sure it's there. At first, the wine tasting was initiated as a means of showcasing Virginia wines, and the wineries provided the wine to Amtrak at no cost. After a few years, the wineries decided to end their participation, and pulled out of the promotion. Amtrak decided to continue the wine tastings at their own expense. From then on, the wines were no longer exclusively from Virginia, and the selection was unpredictable. At this point, each wine tasting was costing Amtrak money, and it was eating into the potential wine sales in the lounge car. Right up to the last day of wine tastings, the wine served at the tasting was kept separate from the complimentary wine served at dinner, and the accounting was kept separate.

Tom


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## lyinel

Just finished the SB trip on the AT, and after 25+ trips probably our last. Always in a deluxe sleeper car. To be honest at $1000 or more, it's far far cheaper to drive or fly, The difference in the past could be justified by the luxury, service, food, socialization, or ease of the AT. That is all gone now.

For example, while fares have gone up, in response we get.....

The filet and shrimp dinner with baked potato is now pot roast with a scoop of industrial mashed potatoes. The chicken was so small it was more llike an appetizer.

The special desert of the trip was a cookie, *yes, a cookie..*...it once was chocolate cake or something the chef made up...the OBS was stunned that I didn't want it.

Hardly saw the OBS after taking the order....never was asked if I needed another soft drink

Of course as noted the free wine at dinner no longer offered

Salad is smaller portion

Plastic place settings...

Try this one, coffee was served in a paper cup!! Not a mug, or plastic cup but a paper cup like you get in the lounge car or sleepers...wow, that's class!

no newspaper in the room....gone

if you remember far enough back, no juice bottles in the sleeper cars (long gone)

of course the wine tasting gone, along with the lounge car... no where to sit and chat with fellow travelers...

finger snacks... gone

cookies in the evening ...gone

fruit in the lounge... gone

cheese, crackers or other snacks in the lounge...gone

of course the first run movies are now replaced with something from the 1940's....

don't forget, for an upcharge you can get your car sooner upon arrival.....

and then they announce that there won't be enough room in the dinners for everyone for breakfast seating in the morning because we're running early arrival and the train is full. sorry, you may be out of luck getting something to eat, but there is coffe or tea available..... it was comical.....and pathetic....

Of course it did save me some money on tips....

We did arrive early which they boasted about, but then had to wait anyway till the usual arrival time because the station crew wasn't in yet!! This has to be a government operation for sure...

Give it a few more years, and watch the transition to box lunches, first for free and than as an upcharge. I can see people bringing their coolers and take out food bags with them....as is most already bring their own wine and snacks....

We've recommended the AT sleeper or roomette for 20 years, won't do so any longer. It's just over a days drive, and 1/3 the cost by car, with better food, better rest in a hotel, a shower and a chance to see some scenery its money better spent else where.

I wish them luck, but for us we're going back on the road...


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## greatcats

Lyinel - You have just persuaded me to never bother taking the Auto Train. I have driven myself from Arizona to Newfoundland and North Carolina to Alaska, so it would not bother me to drive Virginia to Florida. What a shame this has become! It has been said that bureaucracies foster and encourage mediocrity.


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## Bus Nut

Devil's Advocate said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> What sort of customer is truly beholden to the Auto Train regardless of the service or cost?
> 
> 
> 
> People who are terrified of flying and/or people who can't drive long distances easily (or simply don't want to).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If they're terrified of flying they can always take another train or a bus. If they have trouble driving long distances they have the option of stopping often and/or for long periods along the way when driving. I don't dispute that the Auto-Train is popular. What I'm disputing is that it's any sort of critical transportation link that cannot be replaced with other options. Also, see neroden's post above.
Click to expand...

The deal is that the consensus in this country, at least among the political class, is that Amtrak is supposed to be focused on efficient operations, and that any "captive" riders are entitled to the minimum required by law (per ADA) which is more than they deserve, for their sins, and that's it. Any "frills" are, by this reasoning, at the expense of "the taxpayer" (it goes without saying that captive riders are not taxpayers, even though they are, because shut up, that's why) and hence incompatible with such riders' station in life.

If you go back to the old Puritan morality and Protestant work ethic you'll see why the comfort of Amtrak customers (and surely employees) is small potatoes compared to enhancing efficiency metrics.

Other countries see this situation differently and happily pay labor costs for lightly-utilized food & beverage services. Their citizens see convenient, robust, comfortable train service as a public good and a visible manifestation of good government. They don't see armies of liveried government workers as "Waste!", they see it as "Woo! My country rocks! Take that, lame neighboring countries!"


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## Bus Nut

lyinel said:


> We did arrive early which they boasted about, but then had to wait anyway till the usual arrival time because the station crew wasn't in yet!! This has to be a government operation for sure...


This is a solvable problem. Perhaps riders and rider advocacy groups could get on it. Don't expect Amtrak to jump on anything in this climate, though, because bringing a crew in earlier means paying overtime or hiring additional staff. Sure, that's not as glib as blaming lazy/hidebound/inefficient government workers, but that's the truth. When you've cut staffing down to the bone already there's no fat left to shift around and repurpose.

Maybe the State of Florida could sponsor an earlier deboard for early trains, complete with some friendly Disney tie-ins to welcome the 'birds back to the Sunshine State?

/that last was a joke, in case anyone missed the point


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## skull-48

People have stated disapproval of Don Phillip's rants, but what Lyinel stated really cuts to the chase. The extras DO matter. A trip on a long distance train is supposed to feel special. It's longer, more scenic, different for most people as a way of travel, and therefore should not have the same feel as a 3 hour flight from point A to point B. This year, for the first time in a long time, my wife and I opted for other ways of travel, rather than be nickeled and dimed out of amenities we enjoyed, and were used to.

I don't blame Boardman for the insane Lakeshore and Capital delays. That situation seems to be improving. However he is to blame for Amtrak skimping on amenities, amenities that were there for years. Look, I'm a railfan and you can put me anywhere, on any train, and I'll be happy. But my wife was annoyed at the skimping, and I can see her point. People have said, here and elsewhere, I don't miss flowers, newspapers, wine get togethers, welcome aboard snacks,free juice or coffee, steaks, on and on. When does this stop? If on time performance had taken a quantum leap forward I could see it. But no, it's worse. Boardman is supposed to be in charge. The average passenger cares little about congressional issues or heavy duty freight lines. They paid their fare, and if they see things diminished, they will soon opt for other means of transport. I'm in my mid sixties and have ridden Amtrak since it's inception. Now, for the first time, I'm feeling a bit angry. We're being asked to forget what train travel should be about. If there isn't pride at the top, how can the operation be run well. Sorry, pride in bean counting doesn't qualify..


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## jis

According to the February 2015 issue of Trains Magazine, the Auto Train consist has now gone completely LED lighting. This reduced the electrical load enough to allow the addition of an entire extra passenger car. So the train can now have 17 cars instead of 16. As for whether the additional car will be a Sleeper or Coach, will depend on the revenue profile, and will be determined based on that for heavy traffic periods.

Incidentally, Auto Train withe extra revenue car has been doing quite well since the "cuts" took place. It is not clear that there has been any significant loss of clientele as a result of the cuts.


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## OBS

Evidently that 17th car won't be the extra lounge?


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## Ryan

Lounge cars don't generate revenue.


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## AmtrakBlue

RyanS said:


> Lounge cars don't generate revenue.


You could fool me considering how some here have said they would not ride the AT since they removed the lounge.


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## VentureForth

AmtrakBlue said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lounge cars don't generate revenue.
> 
> 
> 
> You could fool me considering how some here have said they would not ride the AT since they removed the lounge.
Click to expand...




jis said:


> It is not clear that there has been any significant loss of clientele as a result of the cuts.


It seems many have been fooled.


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## Devil's Advocate

If it's true that the Auto-Train is mainly used by the elderly then future revenue could end up falling substantially as the snow bird baby boomers that currently support it begin to pass away en mass. Does the extra lounge car have any chance of returning during the slow season or is this a permanent change with no relation to actual bookings?


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## jis

Yeah, but retirement from the Northeast to Florida has been a rolling phenomenon for many decades and it does not look like that trend will abate anytime soon.   Those in their middle ages in the Northeast will get older at about the same rate that the older retirees in Florida pass away. The net flow from Northeast to Florida has remained pretty constant and is likely to continue to be so -until of course neroden's projections come true in the 22nd century when Florida (and substantial parts of New york City) disappear into the Atlantic Ocean.


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## afigg

jis said:


> Incidentally, Auto Train withe extra revenue car has been doing quite well since the "cuts" took place. It is not clear that there has been any significant loss of clientele as a result of the cuts.


It appears that any loss of clientele has been made up by other people taking the AT. Which is what Amtrak was presumably banking on when they implemented the service changes to get the AT closer to true break-even, if not turn a small fully loaded surplus by the end of the FY.
The AT ridership and revenue numbers in the December 2014 monthly report for the first quarter of FY2015:

AT for Oct-Dec 2014: ridership +3.4%, revenue +9.3%

Route Performance report for Oct-Dec 2014:

total revenue = $20.5 million

total cost excl OPEB (pension benefits), PRJ (project), and APT asset allocation = $20.7 million

Loss = $0.2 million

OPEB, PRJ costs = $0.7 million

Fully Allocated loss = $1.0 million

With an additional revenue car for the remainder of the FY (from whenever it was or will be added), the AT could possibly show a fully allocated small surplus for FY15, even with all of Amtrak's overhead loaded on. Not bad at all.


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## lo2e

If the extra car isn't a lounge, I assume they'd need room for more vehicles.

Is there already available space in the auto racks for more vehicles? Or would adding extra auto racks not be a problem?


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## jis

They usually run with a total length in the low 40s. They can go upto 50.


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## Paulus

afigg said:


> With an additional revenue car for the remainder of the FY (from whenever it was or will be added), the AT could possibly show a fully allocated small surplus for FY15, even with all of Amtrak's overhead loaded on. Not bad at all.


It did make a small one for December, reducing the contribution loss from $1.2 million to $1.0 million. 105% fare box recovery for the month of December before OPEBs and whatnot.


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## FormerOBS

My information may not be current. However, the last time I asked, I was told the agreement between CSX and Amtrak stipulates a maximum of fifty cars. I have heard that this includes the locomotives, and I have heard that it does not include them. Not sure about that. I also understand that the FRA has weighed in on the issue and agrees with the fifty car limit. Each bilevel auto carrier can hold 10 vehicles, so count the auto carriers, multiply by ten, and that's the train's automobile capacity. The number of auto carriers can vary from day to day. Sometimes several carriers will run empty or with a partial load because the railroad cars must be moved to the other terminal because they'll be needed on the next run in the opposite direction.

Passenger loads have been in the neighborhood of 700 pax on some recent runs. Employees I have talked with are not sure how many people may have stopped riding the train because of the changes. Since the train handles repeat riders on a one-year cycle, many employees agree that a true understanding of the possible alienation of past customers can't be gained until the changes have been in effect for at least a year. One thing is certain: You don't have to spend money on advertising in order to keep the veteran customers because they have come back year after year. But if you alienate them and drive them away, you have to spend plenty to attract new riders to replace them.


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## Bus Nut

Paulus, if the changes happened in March, 2014, it would help to compare 2013, 2014 and 2015.

Because of the booking one year out I think next summer will be the real acid test. Likely Amtrak already knows what they are facing but we won't know until we've seen the monthly reports. ^_^


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## railiner

jis said:


> Yeah, but retirement from the Northeast to Florida has been a rolling phenomenon for many decades and it does not look like that trend will abate anytime soon.  Those in their middle ages in the Northeast will get older at about the same rate that the older retirees in Florida pass away. The net flow from Northeast to Florida has remained pretty constant and is likely to continue to be so -


I'm not so sure about that.....the large part of the Auto Train demographic whose current generation have abandoned their traditional past generation summering in the 'Catskills', now seem to be choosing the Carolina's (or other places), to retire to instead of Florida, in increasingly larger numbers......


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## FormerOBS

At this point, baby boomers are among the retirees using the Auto Train, but the dominant group is still the previous generation. The very first baby boomers were born in January, 1946, so they turned 65 four years ago. They are relatively new Florida snowbirds, so they do not dominate Auto Train's clientele --- yet. This is sure to change. The question remains as to whether this growing demographic will replace the older customers, or abandon the train.

Families still constitute a fairly large share of Auto Train's customer base. Their large vans and SUV's are carried at a higher price. Getting kids on the train can help them to learn about train travel and become future train travelers. The train also eliminates the need for a long and tedious drive with a carload of bored kids. Traditionally, the parents have traveled at regular rates, with bargain rates for the kids. Summertime is naturally the busiest time for family travels, but holidays and other times can be busy times for families too. It remains to be seen whether the changes will affect families' decisions about whether to take the Auto Train.

Tom


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## Allypet

I think FormerOBS is correct. It will take at least a year to see if it affects ridership. I know this isn't scientific, but last year I took 8 Auto train trips in 13 months. I have always enjoy a walk into to lounge car to have a drink and a snack to pass the time. Since the changes I couldn't find a seat in the lounge car, and after several trips I gave up. I became a virtual prisoner in my bedroom. As a result I did not book any trips on the AT this year. While this is one persons opinion, it could be true for a lot of people, but the end result is I will not be riding this year.


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## Devil's Advocate

I'm surprised that lighting was the focus of the power saving program since you would think the HVAC hardware is responsible for the vast majority of power usage and would have had the greatest possible impact if replaced with a more modern and efficient design.


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## Ryan

Agreed, but I'll bet that swapping lighting was a heck of a lot easier.


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## Paulus

Bus Nut said:


> Paulus, if the changes happened in March, 2014, it would help to compare 2013, 2014 and 2015.


It would, but it's a pain in the butt to go through it all.


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## FormerOBS

I spoke with another Auto Train employee and he said that he's been seeing more and more Canadian license plates on the automobiles. This is a trend that had started before I retired, and it is evidently increasing. I wonder whether Amtrak, and specifically Auto Train, has increased its advertising in the Canadian market.

My friend isn't sure how many of our past customers have been lost, but he notes that there are plenty of new customers to replace them. The real question is whether these new customers will become repeat customers.

In most cases, employees riding in sleepers while traveling on their employees pass, cannot be accommodated in the sleeper diner. They must eat in the coach diner, which is at the opposite end of the train. The food is pretty much the same, but it's a L-O-N-G walk.

Some of our past customers will continue to use the Auto Train, no matter how much the service is degraded. My friend said if you're 80 years old and have a summer home in the North and a winter home in Florida, you have to get from one to the other somehow; and driving that far is out of the question for a lot of Auto Train's customers. Since a car is needed at both ends of the line, and it costs too much to own two cars that will each be dormant for half of the year, the Auto Train is the only option they see. Note that many of them can't or won't fly, so shipping the car by truck doesn't work either.

It seems like every time I talk with one of my old co-workers, I hear "You picked the right time to retire" or "I wish I could retire like you did", or some variant of that same theme.

Tom


----------



## railiner

FormerOBS said:


> It seems like every time I talk with one of my old co-workers, I hear "You picked the right time to retire" or "I wish I could retire like you did", or some variant of that same theme.
> 
> Tom


But....do you agree with them?

Aren't there times when you wish you were back at work?

Especially if new routes open, new equipment go into service, etc.?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Interesting question! IINM Tom has expressed in other posts that it was time to retire, that OBS work is for younger folks since it takes it' s toll in many ways over the years!

In my case , I do miss my co- workers, but don' t miss having to go to work!

The only draw back to retirement ( I' m a retired Government employee that lives in an increasingly expensive city) is having a limited income! (I do work @ partime jobs to help pay for my rail travel and living expenses!)

I think that Tom would rather use his rail pass to ride Trains, kick back and leave the service to others!


----------



## FormerOBS

You're reading my mind, Jim.

I do miss it in some ways. I had a lot of fun with both passengers and crew members. I always said there was no point in showing up for work at all if you couldn't have some fun doing it. But after each trip I seemed to be more and more tired. Long hours and short sleep. Being on your feet almost all the time and constantly working against the motion of the train. These things make it pretty rough after two hip replacements. I'd rather leave now while I still have my health and can enjoy my retirement.

Anyway, younger people need the jobs. Technology is making it harder and harder for youngsters to find jobs. Entry level jobs like grocery store cashier, are being lost to self-checkout, which I refuse to use.

I was expecting my retirement income to be higher, but I'll get by.

New equipment probably wouldn't be assigned to my train, so that wouldn't be a factor.

So I'll be happy to see you on the train some time, but somebody else can make your bed and serve your dinner.


----------



## FormerOBS

No, that last post wasn't edited. The system wouldn't accept my changes.

To answer the question, the answer is yes, I do agree with them. The issues mentioned above are important, but the consensus is that it's harder to take pride in your work nowadays. That would be pretty demoralizing for me.

Tom


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## Palmland

I don't understand why Amtrak doesn't offer a premium level of service for a premium price. I was talking to a manager of a very successful tourist operation. He said they just break even on the coach business, but make money on the premium services. Why doesn't A-T at least try it? A sleeper or two with it's own diner-lounge offering Pullman co. level services - at a price. I suspect there are enough high roller retirees that would jump at it.


----------



## Train2104

Palmland said:


> I don't understand why Amtrak doesn't offer a premium level of service for a premium price. I was talking to a manager of a very successful tourist operation. He said they just break even on the coach business, but make money on the premium services. Why doesn't A-T at least try it? A sleeper or two with it's own diner-lounge offering Pullman co. level services - at a price. I suspect there are enough high roller retirees that would jump at it.


I wonder if the new Prestige features on the Canadian are meant for this purpose...


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## Bob Dylan

Excellent idea Palmland, but the "Mica Managers" in Congress would have a stroke if Amtrak tried to implement "Luxury Service" such as the infamous $25 Amburgers!

Luxury travel is reserved for Billionaires and their puppets, Members of Congress!


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## railiner

Palmland said:


> I don't understand why Amtrak doesn't offer a premium level of service for a premium price. I was talking to a manager of a very successful tourist operation. He said they just break even on the coach business, but make money on the premium services. Why doesn't A-T at least try it? A sleeper or two with it's own diner-lounge offering Pullman co. level services - at a price. I suspect there are enough high roller retirees that would jump at it.


Too bad they can't relocate the Pullman Rail Journeys operation from the City of New Orleans over to the Auto Train....they might do a lot better in that market.

That way, the 'Mica Manager's' would not have a basis to complain, since a private company would be providing the luxury service....

And they could run a dedicated luxury bus from Washington (or its airport) down to Lorton, and another from Sanford to Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale for passenger's not transporting automobiles. And Pullman could supply their own HEP to solve that restriction...

What do you think about that?


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## FormerOBS

What is the point of putting passengers without autos on the Auto Train? Auto Train does not have space aboard to handle any more passengers. If passengers don't want to take their car along, Amtrak has Silver Service trains they can use. What you are proposing would exceed the fifty car limit imposed by CSX and the FRA. I won't get into the logistics of handling another car to supply HEP and having someone to operate it.

Tom


----------



## afigg

railiner said:


> Too bad they can't relocate the Pullman Rail Journeys operation from the City of New Orleans over to the Auto Train....they might do a lot better in that market.
> 
> That way, the 'Mica Manager's' would not have a basis to complain, since a private company would be providing the luxury service....
> 
> And they could run a dedicated luxury bus from Washington (or its airport) down to Lorton, and another from Sanford to Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale for passenger's not transporting automobiles. And Pullman could supply their own HEP to solve that restriction...
> 
> What do you think about that?


The purpose of the AT is to transport people and their automobiles. Setting aside the AT consist limits for the moment, why would people take a bus, even a luxury bus from DC to Lorton, then get on the AT, and then a luxury bus from Sanford FL to Fort Lauderdale/Miami when they get on an Amtrak train from DC to Miami? If Pullman thinks there is a market for luxury sleeper travel from NY-DC to southern Florida, why not put the Pullman cars on the Silver Meteor? Which, incidentally, Pullman did do for a special one-of trip from Chicago to Miami (via the Capitol Limited and the Meteor) recently.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I agree that it would be an outstanding idea for Iowa Pacific to run their Luxury cars on the Silver Meteor to Florida!

As was said, even the Mica Managers in Congress can't object to a for profit company running a Luxury train service! !


----------



## tonys96

railiner said:


> Palmland said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand why Amtrak doesn't offer a premium level of service for a premium price. I was talking to a manager of a very successful tourist operation. He said they just break even on the coach business, but make money on the premium services. Why doesn't A-T at least try it? A sleeper or two with it's own diner-lounge offering Pullman co. level services - at a price. I suspect there are enough high roller retirees that would jump at it.
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad they can't relocate the Pullman Rail Journeys operation from the City of New Orleans over to the Auto Train....they might do a lot better in that market.
> 
> That way, the 'Mica Manager's' would not have a basis to complain, since a private company would be providing the luxury service....
> 
> And they could run a dedicated luxury bus from Washington (or its airport) down to Lorton, and another from Sanford to Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale for passenger's not transporting automobiles. And Pullman could supply their own HEP to solve that restriction...
> 
> What do you think about that?
Click to expand...

Nah, makes way too much sense.


----------



## Ryan

That makes no sense whatsoever for the reasons given in afigg's post.


----------



## rrdude

RyanS said:


> That makes no sense whatsoever for the reasons given in afigg's post.


So, "expect that any day, 'cause it's Amtrak........." LOL


----------



## NE933

Oh, so many things about the problem of capacity shortage of Amtrak's Auto Train and Amtrak's non Auto Trains.

NY to Florida, like NY to Chicago, has a demand for more frequencies. Other city pairs should have multiple frequencies but I avoid naming them to keep the topic on topic. NY to the Sunshine state needs another Silver Service frequency (bring back the Palm); until that happens, or maybe even after, it would make sense for Auto Train to carry passengers who are willing to board at Lorton or Sanford. Ideally there would be two Auto Trains (whether each is an exact twin of the other is open to the reader's, and paying public's, evaluation), so the 46(?) car limit would not be of worry, not yet anyway.


----------



## FormerOBS

OK. Now you want two Auto Trains. Would your proposed schedules provide for both consists to be at the same terminal at the same time? If so, where would you put all the equipment? If not, then I'm curious what schedules you're proposing for these trains. What will you do when one Auto Train is delayed and the other is on time, putting both trains at the same terminal at the same time? There was a proposal to build a much larger terminal in Sanford, but sufficient money wasn't provided by Congress, so the new terminal was built on the crowded site of the old one. At the opening of the new Sanford terminal, Mr. Mica reportedly asked an Amtrak official why it had been built in such a cramped area, instead of the more spacious area to the north (RR direction) and was told "because your committee cut the funds to build it there" (not necessarily an exact quote). That larger area is no longer available because a station and maintenance facility for Sunrail has been built there. Maybe you're proposing different terminals. Who's going to pay to build them? For that matter, who's going to pay for the feasibility studies before they're built? Who's going to talk CSX into operating an additional Auto Train in both directions on their busy main line? Where will the additional Superliners come from? (The newly rebuilt platform is too low for single-level equipment). If a second Auto Train is inaugurated, it can only be justified if it runs at or near capacity. That means more auto carriers. Where will they come from? There are lots more questions, but I'll stop for now.

Forty six car limit? Never heard of it. It's fifty, but I'm not sure whether that includes the two locomotives.

"For every complex question, there is a simple answer ---- which is wrong."

Tom


----------



## Ryan

FormerOBS said:


> "For every complex question, there is a simple answer ---- which is wrong."
> 
> Tom


This might be the best statement I've read in my 5+ years knocking about here.

Haolerider had one about internet experts and keyboards that was quite good, this one may best it.


----------



## FormerOBS

To be fair, I guess I shouldn't be harsh. I suspect the suggestions were made by somebody who has never seen the Auto Train's terminals, equipment, or operations. From a distance, the issues probably don't look that complicated.

BTW, I don't remember where I first heard that expression, but it's one I'll never forget. It fits so very many situations.

Tom


----------



## railiner

FormerOBS said:


> What is the point of putting passengers without autos on the Auto Train? Auto Train does not have space aboard to handle any more passengers. If passengers don't want to take their car along, Amtrak has Silver Service trains they can use. What you are proposing would exceed the fifty car limit imposed by CSX and the FRA. I won't get into the logistics of handling another car to supply HEP and having someone to operate it.
> 
> Tom





afigg said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad they can't relocate the Pullman Rail Journeys operation from the City of New Orleans over to the Auto Train....they might do a lot better in that market.
> 
> That way, the 'Mica Manager's' would not have a basis to complain, since a private company would be providing the luxury service....
> 
> And they could run a dedicated luxury bus from Washington (or its airport) down to Lorton, and another from Sanford to Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale for passenger's not transporting automobiles. And Pullman could supply their own HEP to solve that restriction...
> 
> What do you think about that?
> 
> 
> 
> The purpose of the AT is to transport people and their automobiles. Setting aside the AT consist limits for the moment, why would people take a bus, even a luxury bus from DC to Lorton, then get on the AT, and then a luxury bus from Sanford FL to Fort Lauderdale/Miami when they get on an Amtrak train from DC to Miami? If Pullman thinks there is a market for luxury sleeper travel from NY-DC to southern Florida, why not put the Pullman cars on the Silver Meteor? Which, incidentally, Pullman did do for a special one-of trip from Chicago to Miami (via the Capitol Limited and the Meteor) recently.
Click to expand...

Okay then, I wasn't aware of the total car limitation of the Auto Train. I was not suggesting putting additional passenger's onto Amtrak's cars....the Pullman passenger's would only occupy Pullman's cars. The reason I suggested adding them to the Auto Train, was to allow dome lounge equipment, which the "Silver" trains can't carry.

So yes....perhaps it would be a better idea to forego the domes, and just add single level cars to a "Silver" train for a trial period.....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

In my view what makes improving or expanding (or even dismantling) Amtrak so difficult has little to do with any innate or fundamental complexity and nearly everything to do with political momentum and economic inertia. Unwinding assumptions and revisiting conclusions that have remained largely unchallenged for nearly half a century is not an easy task.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

American Orient Express (AOE) use to run cars on the sliver service. Of course the bankrupt of the company stop that. Never daily, or north of DC.


----------



## The Whistler

We already scratched the Auto Train off of the routes that we take exactly only due to these cuts. Right now the passenger load is still there but lets wait a bit and see. We will now drive but I would say more people will be flying. Sleepers on the Autotrain cost a lot of money. Here they have steadily raised prices and want to give you less for it. Thanks for making me a Florida driver again. With the lower prices on fuel we will really be ahead of the game.


----------



## AlexandriaVA

Hate to say it, but given the passenger load and financial performance, sounds like there's even more cost cutting they could squeeze out of the route.

I've said this several times on here, but nearly every single European night train I've come across is pretty spartan...you get a box breakfast with a room or couchette, (slightly nicer in a first-class room), and that's it. There's a bistro car, but you pay for your meal. Most people eat beforehand or bring a picnic on board (alcohol allowed in coach as well).


----------



## rrdude

I flippin' hate to think this, but if pax loads hold fast on the AT, that is, there is no reduction because of the amenities cuts, then Amtrak did the right thing. (It took my fingers five minutes to just type "did the right thing")

I too think it is a bit early to tell, even though there are, dare I say, a "dozen or more" posters just on this board who have canx or not made future AT rezzies, if there is an overwhelming demand in the gen-pop, then it really doesn't matter a whit what us railfans think of the amenities cuts.

After all, I dealt with a restaurant owner for YEARS who refused to issue coupons, saying, "If I'm full to capacity, why give away anything for free, when they are gonna buy it anyways.........." He ran a pretty schlock operation, low(er) quality food, pizza, subs, always buying at the bottom of the options from Sysco and USFoods.

And his prices reflected it. He was catering to HIS market. Why give away ANYthing, when people are beating a path to your door.

With Amtrak, it's doubly effective, as there is ZERO, NADA, NONE, competition for this type of service. (not talking about shipping your auto down in advance, either, or using a drive-away service)

Time will tell.


----------



## Palmland

If the A-T continues to operate at capacity, even with reduced amenities, then it's not a question of getting more passengers. And we know the consist size is fixed. My question is, why doesn't Amtrak offer a premium Pullman type service with existing, but upgraded, SL equipment for a significantly higher price. The questions isn't how do we get more passengers (especially if a second section is impractical), but rather how do we get more revenue per passenger. Even the airlines, who seem to enjoy cramming as many bodies into the plane as possible, still offer first class seating because they know they can get top dollar. Maybe it's not possible with a government based operation with rigid work rules?


----------



## Ryan

Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.


----------



## Palmland

RyanS said:


> Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.


You could well be correct. Let's just hope Amtrak has considered this, done their analysis, and reached that conclusion.

Another approach might be to differentiate pricing of vehicles. I thought Amtrak was doing this, but appears just one price from a small vehicle to a truck (except motorcycles). Probably makes loading easier if all auto carriers are configured the same, but if it seems if your vehicle takes up more space it should cost more. Especially since more larger vehicles could require more auto carriers and reduce the cars available for passengers.


----------



## railiner

RyanS said:


> Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.


I can't say, when it comes to Amtrak...but apparently the airlines think so....I've heard that their premium passenger's represent a tiny portion of the total, but account for a huge portion of revenue. I am also not entirely sure if 'premium' means highest tier frequent traveler's, or those paying top fares either for last minute coach, or business and first class.

Does anyone know whether a sleeper or a coach on a long distance train yields a higher profit, after all expenses are considered?


----------



## Paulus

Boils down to how much of the dining car's expense you throw onto the sleepers and is somewhat route dependent. Part of the problem is that we don't know how much gets transferred from the sleeper account to the F&B account which would allow for a fairly simple look at it. On a per car basis, coach has higher revenue on most Eastern LDTs thanks to high turnover while the vast expanses of nothing combine with more seating on the Western LDTS to reduce turnover and revenue so that sleepers appear to be higher.


----------



## Ryan

railiner said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say, when it comes to Amtrak...but apparently the airlines think so....I've heard that their premium passenger's represent a tiny portion of the total, but account for a huge portion of revenue.
Click to expand...

Driven almost entirely by business travelers that aren't paying out of pocket for those seats. The Amtrak analog to that is Acela (and Acela First in particular), it doesn't really translate to the LD trains.


----------



## neroden

Palmland said:


> If the A-T continues to operate at capacity, even with reduced amenities, then it's not a question of getting more passengers. And we know the consist size is fixed.


The key is to make sure that the consist size is NOT fixed.

Railroads are all about economies of scale. The most obvious version of this is train length. If the A-T is operating at capacity with reduced amenities -- despite a fairly substantial number of regular passengers permanently cancelling their trips, anecdotally -- that means the right solution is MORE CAPACITY.

I did read something which said that CSX was open to relaxing the arbitrary 50-car limit. And I read something else indicating that Amtrak was doing energy efficiency retrofits in hopes of relaxing the train length limit based on HEP capacity. So those are both good signs. Tack on another sleeper and another coach, and you may (or may not) need the extra lounge back.


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm surprised that lighting was the focus of the power saving program since you would think the HVAC hardware is responsible for the vast majority of power usage and would have had the greatest possible impact if replaced with a more modern and efficient design.


Apparently in most houses with incandescent bulbs, lighting is a solid 50% of electricity usage. It's probably less in the train, but still...

Amtrak was using incandescents. I suspect that the lighting was the biggest single load, at least during the day.... maybe not at night!

The other thing is that the improvement is massive. Switching from incandescents to LEDs removes *90%* of the electricity usage from lighting. (If you haven't switched to LEDs in your home, do it now.)

HVACs haven't improved that much. Modern HVAC would remove, optimistically, about 50% of the electricity usage from HVAC. Significant, but not as big a win as LED lighting.

The lighting is the biggest, quickest win, so you do it first.


----------



## Anderson

RyanS said:


> Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.


It depends on what market(s) you might be targeting and how much of an overhaul you're planning. If you overhaul one sleeper on a train into larger (but more expensive) rooms with booking restrictions, you can make a model work...and that model could probably fly on the Coast Starlight and Empire Builder, where you get lots of Asian tourists. On the Auto Train, I'm not sure; ditto the Silvers. The issue there is capacity, yes, but not necessarily super-high-end capacity.


----------



## Bus Nut

AlexandriaVA said:


> Hate to say it, but given the passenger load and financial performance, sounds like there's even more cost cutting they could squeeze out of the route.
> 
> I've said this several times on here, but nearly every single European night train I've come across is pretty spartan...you get a box breakfast with a room or couchette, (slightly nicer in a first-class room), and that's it. There's a bistro car, but you pay for your meal. Most people eat beforehand or bring a picnic on board (alcohol allowed in coach as well).


European rail services aren't required to do this Kabuki dance (actually, it's probably more like Noh in terms of being esoteric to the casual observer, but political wonks call it kabuki, so kabuki) of running a public transportation service at a profit. Airports and roads depend on taxes but railroads are expected to pay taxes, as if the one is a maker and the other is a taker--but they all provide economic-social-physical connections. European countries make hard-nosed calculations about what routes to subsidize with air and which to subsidize with rail. The US treats each mode like the other doesn't exist.

European governments want to subsidize medium-length journeys on rail, and corridor travel. But the NPRC has to run a network across vast, sparsely populated areas on privately-owned trackage and food service on a multi-day journey like that is a serious expense. Add to that the weird political dance and Amtrak does these weird gyrations including diner in first class tickets and then crediting the meals back to the F&B revenue line to please their fickle political masters and keep the whole threadbare system together.

Yeah, you're right, European travelers don't really give a polished farthing about food service on their trains but their politicians aren't demagoguing about cutting F&B jobs or insisting on "only the most horrible food" for our rail customers. Even the cafe food on European trains is worlds better than anything I've had on Amtrak with the exception of some of the fresh cuts packs (before they run out, which they always do). Even Cascades, sorry PNW.


----------



## Bus Nut

Paulus said:


> Boils down to how much of the dining car's expense you throw onto the sleepers and is somewhat route dependent. Part of the problem is that we don't know how much gets transferred from the sleeper account to the F&B account which would allow for a fairly simple look at it. On a per car basis, coach has higher revenue on most Eastern LDTs thanks to high turnover while the vast expanses of nothing combine with more seating on the Western LDTS to reduce turnover and revenue so that sleepers appear to be higher.


You're almost on something here - Western trains have missed opportunities with corridor services especially on the ends. If there are multiple daily departures you get these virtuous "induced demand" effects (induced demand is a terrible term but you hear it a lot so it'll do for now) that increase ridership on all trips. The reasons are obvious, if you have to go to Kalamazoo and back the one a day departures might not work for you in both directions but if you have multiple options it's more likely that one will work for you, so you go Amtrak instead of rent-a-car.

The performance improvement reports did talk about changes to timing to pick up more medium-range travelers in the more densely populated areas. But there also have to be state partnerships to add additional trains. Chicago to Minneapolis. Eastern Wash to Western Wash? Coast Daylight? Texas service corridors.

The Eastern trains have a lot of city pairs where there are multiple daily options.

Although the vast wilderness doesn't _help_, exactly.


----------



## Bus Nut

Palmland said:


> If the A-T continues to operate at capacity, even with reduced amenities, then it's not a question of getting more passengers. And we know the consist size is fixed. My question is, why doesn't Amtrak offer a premium Pullman type service with existing, but upgraded, SL equipment for a significantly higher price. The questions isn't how do we get more passengers (especially if a second section is impractical), but rather how do we get more revenue per passenger. Even the airlines, who seem to enjoy cramming as many bodies into the plane as possible, still offer first class seating because they know they can get top dollar. Maybe it's not possible with a government based operation with rigid work rules?


Well, I respectfully disagree.

Operating at capacity: hopefully, yes. But the full impact of the changes won't be felt until we're 12 months in. So it's too early to tell (unless you're Amtrak and sweating over early sales right now ... but they're not telling us what they're thinking except for cryptic notes in monthly reports).

More passengers: secular passenger growth may have leveled off. Or not. But it's clearly not exploding at the moment. Maybe if the economy picks up steam and wages go up pushing travel demand? Who knows, right? But we're not experiencing the insane YOY growth we've seen in the past in most of the system right now.

Consist size: see neroden's comments on this

Pullman service: well, Iowa Pacific is doing just this for a small consideration to Amtrak on the CONO and while none of us know their internals if this was the win you imagine they'd be expanding a lot faster and with competition. Which is not happening.

First class on airlines: not necessarily a money maker on domestic travel. It's a complicated issue made more complicated by arcane airline loyalty programs and the desire to fill seats at the last minute. Airlines struggle with first/business/coach on small planes and shorter runs. This is also a place where economics of planes and trains diverge. Trains can add capacity more easily than planes, and can still make money with empty seats and they turn seats which means they can sell the same seat multiple times.

Rigid work rules: most of the constraints on Auto Train, which you would know if you read the PIP, have to do with all things rolling stock and not with staff. Kinda insulting to the AT staff who are often considered some of the best customer-facing staff in the system.

More revenue per passenger: again if you read the PIP and were following events over last two years you would know that Amtrak implemented a premium upcharge to get your car offloaded in the first batch, which is a thinking-out-of-the-box premium service that people are very evidently willing to pay for. They're also upcharging for pillows. And charging for the a-a-a-a-a alcohol.

None of this had to do with workrules or copying the airlines' wonderful example of losing money despite 20B USD infusion from Congress (where's Amtrak's $20B?), oh I'm sorry that was #sarcasm. It's about stepping to the side and rethinking the revenue model and, well, questioning assumptions.

Now Amtrak Joe may be totally wrong about what customers want and went too far in terms of degrading the food. If so they will have to scramble and regroup. We'll see.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on what market(s) you might be targeting and how much of an overhaul you're planning. If you overhaul one sleeper on a train into larger (but more expensive) rooms with booking restrictions, you can make a model work...and that model could probably fly on the Coast Starlight and Empire Builder, where you get lots of Asian tourists. On the Auto Train, I'm not sure; ditto the Silvers. The issue there is capacity, yes, but not necessarily super-high-end capacity.
Click to expand...

One factor that works against such fracturing of car inventory into multiple types is that at the time of need it becomes harder to redeploy cars, and also each subfleet now needs its own set of contingency, which becomes quite expensive for many small subfleets. So it is necessary that such service makes money year in and year out to make it worthwhile. Even without different fare classes Amtrak had a highly fractured car inventory in the Amfleet Is as originally acquired, It took them years to boil it down to four types of cars making them more flexibly allocatable for service. Making 4 different types of Sleeping Cars in an already miniscule fleet is not necessarily the best way to go. OTOH, if you had a vast fleet of several hundred cars, creating a small subfleet of special cars is much easier to handle.


----------



## rrdude

RyanS said:


> Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.


No, but I bet (This is starting to feel like Don Quixote, tilting at the Windmill) if Microsoft, or Apple, or IBM, or Disney, or Budweiser or Coors, yada, yada, yada, were to foot the bill, they'd do a nice job, AND get some great PR.........


----------



## Mark Matarella

For those who think it would not be possible to run two Auto Trains in a day I point out that in my Auto Train Corporation brochure from the old days there was a third train that ran northbound one day, southbound the next. At least it is said it was available in this brochure. It departed at 8:00 pm with a arrival or 11:30 am. While I don't recall (I was a teen then) personal knowledge that they did indeed run this I do recall the stations at the time. The location was the same and the infrastructure for the public at least was a fraction of what exists now. The brochure mentions that this train plus a schedule change for the regular trains went into effect on December 1st, 1973

So however unlikely it might be it seems like there could be a second run if they REALLY wanted to.


----------



## VentureForth

Palmland said:


> If the A-T continues to operate at capacity, even with reduced amenities, then it's not a question of getting more passengers. And we know the consist size is fixed. My question is, why doesn't Amtrak offer a premium Pullman type service with existing, but upgraded, SL equipment for a significantly higher price. The questions isn't how do we get more passengers (especially if a second section is impractical), but rather how do we get more revenue per passenger. Even the airlines, who seem to enjoy cramming as many bodies into the plane as possible, still offer first class seating because they know they can get top dollar. Maybe it's not possible with a government based operation with rigid work rules?


Why do folks keep saying there is a capaicity issue? Maybe it's true. But the next 30 days show availability for COACH and one train completely sold out of sleepers. Looks like they need to put another sleeper back on. And another diner.



rrdude said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> No, but I bet (This is starting to feel like Don Quixote, tilting at the Windmill) if Microsoft, or Apple, or IBM, or Disney, or Budweiser or Coors, yada, yada, yada, were to foot the bill, they'd do a nice job, AND get some great PR.........
Click to expand...

If Microsoft, or Apple, or IBM, or Disney, or Budweiser, or Coors were to fit the bill, you would bet that they would probably double the cost of the fares, but people would ride precisely because it isn't Amtrak.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> One factor that works against such fracturing of car inventory into multiple types is that at the time of need it becomes harder to redeploy cars, and also each subfleet now needs its own set of contingency, which becomes quite expensive for many small subfleets. So it is necessary that such service makes money year in and year out to make it worthwhile. Even without different fare classes Amtrak had a highly fractured car inventory in the Amfleet Is as originally acquired, It took them years to boil it down to four types of cars making them more flexibly allocatable for service.


I'd be interested to read more about this. The Amfleet Is are all very similar and the variations appear minor...
The Heritage cars were a *ridiculously* fractured inventory, of course.



> Making 4 different types of Sleeping Cars in an already miniscule fleet is not necessarily the best way to go. OTOH, if you had a vast fleet of several hundred cars, creating a small subfleet of special cars is much easier to handle.


Much better to have a large fleet of identical Viewliner sleepers, IMHO.
I think a second Auto Train operating at the 8 PM - 11:30 AM schedule would probably be a big hit. Given that the first one is generating nearly enough to cover its overhead (!!!), a second one would probably do well at leveraging fixed costs. But.... where's the equipment? I don't think there are even enough autoracks, let alone enough Superliners or locomotives.


----------



## FormerOBS

Mark ---

When you reference the third Auto Train in days gone by, are you talking about the short-lived Louisville service, which was one of the factors that helped to drive the original Auto Train Corporation into bankruptcy? I have never discussed this service with anyone who actually worked for the A-T Corporation at that time, so I don't know how they managed to accommodate all that equipment at the same time. I'm just glad I never had to deal with it.

Neroden ---

One important thing to remember: the second Auto Train might be a big hit with passengers, but it definitely won't be a big hit with CSX. So Mark's comment "if they REALLY wanted to" is better applied to CSX than to Amtrak.

Them's the facts, guys.

Tom


----------



## Mark Matarella

No, the third train is listed as a second train on the Lorton - Sanford route. Alternate days North and South, and only in the winter and summer. Of course just because it's in the flyer doesn't mean it happened, or lasted long. Shall I scan the brochure and post a link? It predates Amtrak running it, so not sure if appropriate or if there is interest.

FYI, the one way fare then was $198 for one vehicle AND included two passengers. Additional occupants up to the car's rating $25 each. A compartment started at $45


----------



## jis

To start a second Autotrain, figure on getting two more consists, that is about 30 or so Superliners and 50 or so additional auto racks as a starter + some six or so locomotives. The figure out the logistics of handling two trains simultaneously at each end for at least a few hours worth of overlap time each day. The startup costs are not going to be cheap and will be pretty hard to recover in the short term.

I suppose you could start small by cutting all those numbers by a third, but then it will be that much less revenue to play with to recover the startup cost too.


----------



## Mark Matarella

I figure a couple links won't do any harm. Doesn't take up file space here. If you'd like to see a brochure for the 'auto-train' corporation version from late 1972 see these jpgs. Front and back images.

http://www.matarella.com/mark/auto-train1.jpg

http://www.matarella.com/mark/auto-train2.jpg


----------



## Ryan

Thanks, those are great.

This seemed relevant:


----------



## chakk

JoeRids said:


> I think this is a bad idea; it's these little extras that people remember. I work as an insurance adjuster, and I see some body shops giving customers "freebies" like cookies and gift bags at the end of their repairs; it's this kind of unexpected, "chotchke" (sp?) stuff that leaves a lasting impression in people's mind, along with of course friendly


Close. The correct spelling is tchotchke


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> To start a second Autotrain, figure on getting two more consists, that is about 30 or so Superliners and 50 or so additional auto racks as a starter + some six or so locomotives.


So, at $2.7 million per bilevel, that's $81 million in coaches. At $7 million per locomotive, that's $42 million in locomotives. I can't find any estimate for the cost of autoracks, but the lowest estimate I've seen for the cost of a freight car is $30K, so that's another $1.5 million (this is probably a lowball, it could be twice that). So call it $125 million in startup costs.




> The figure out the logistics of handling two trains simultaneously at each end for at least a few hours worth of overlap time each day.


Eh, it wouldn't be a serious problem if you timed it right. Three trains would be impossible, of course.



> The startup costs are not going to be cheap and will be pretty hard to recover in the short term.


Yeah, you can say that again. Ignoring overhead, the Auto Train is realizing about $35 million in profits per year. We might expect the second train to do somewhat worse, but optimistically suppose it's the same amount. (After all, station costs are "direct costs" for the Auto Train, but they'd be split over two trains now, so that would help the second train.) Suppose Amtrak got a 10-year loan for the startup costs, with 4% interest (I'm being optimistic here); this would use up more than half the profits for the first 10 years. With 8% interest rates, it wouldn't pencil out.

And of course, due to the idiotic overhead allocation rules, it wouldn't *look* like it was profitable even at the 4% rate. :sigh:

However, one thing about doing this: it seems that most of the cost would be in Superliners and locomotives. Should the service perform poorly, these can be moved to other trains.


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## FormerOBS

Mark ---

Maybe you're right about the second train. I dunno. It was over 40 years ago --- over 14 years before I started working on Amtrak's version of the A-T. I wonder how long that service lasted, and I wonder what happened when one or both --- or all three! --- consists ran off schedule due to traffic, weather, grade crossing "incidents", etc. I'd also be curious how many passengers and autos were processed in one day back in 1973, with station facilities that were much smaller than today's Amtrak stations. It sounds like a living nightmare.

Nowadays the train is handling something on the order of 600 passengers and 300 vehicles each way. That means each A-T terminal can handle something like 1200 passengers and 600 vehicles per day. I guess I could be wrong, but I would be very surprised if the A-T Corporation exceeded that, even with two trains.

Tom


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## jis

From what I have read, apparently the Louisville Auto Train ran tacked onto the Floridian for a period of time too. Is this accurate or am I remembering wrong?

The current Auto Train occupies each terminal from 9:30am to 4pm, if on schedule. So things must be scheduled so that the other train occupies the terminal when the current one is not there, which basically says that the other train has to be effectively a day train, which probably won't work out that well.

The alternative would be to do some significant augmentation of storage tracks at both the terminals and run the second train something like 8pm departure with 1:30pm arrival. Anything like that will require doubling the number of auto loading/unloading tracks, which could be quite a challenge, and is going to be expensive too.

Afterall it will involve at least some period of time when at the same time while one train is being loaded, the other is being unloaded. It typically take 90 mins or more to unload a train, and the departing trains starts loading cars about 3 hours before departure as far as I can tell, though that might vary quite a bit. I am sure Tom can give more precise info on that.


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## FormerOBS

OK. I finally managed to reach somebody who worked for the Auto Train Corp. back in 1973. Just got off the phone with him. Back then all the passenger cars were single level. Nowadays we call them Heritage cars, although that term hadn't been invented at the time. Climate control was through steam heat, which was provided by a special auxiliary car with a steam generator. That steam source provided steam heat for the entire train. The train got so long that the steam got cold by the time it reached the other end of the train. As a result, they had to break the train and run it in two sections. One section left at the usual time, 4:00 P.M.; the second section followed 3-1/.2 hours later. The amount of available equipment dictated that this could not be done every day, so it was scheduled to be done on the days of heaviest demand. I suspect the most important consideration may have been the number of available locomotives and steam generator cars. My friend said he does not remember specific numbers, but he doubts that the Auto Train was serving as many as 600 passengers per day, even with the extra train. This is because each modern Amtrak Superliner has a much greater capacity than the old single level cars. For example, one 10-6 Heritage sleeper had 22 berths, one of which was often required for that car's attendant. In contrast, one standard Superliner sleeper has 42 berths for passengers, plus one for the SCA on the current Amtrak Auto Train.

Tom


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## FormerOBS

jis:

You're pretty much right. I don't know how the Louisville train --- which did, indeed, run as part of the Floridian --- fit into the Sanford operation because I wasn't there at the time. In order to run additional service, the terminals would need to be expanded, and there just isn't any space to do that, as I explained on this thread Feb. 9, 2015 at 10:07 P.M.

Three words stand out in your post: "...if on schedule." As you point out, it would be difficult to manage if on schedule. If one or two trains are late, it would be nearly impossible to get back on schedule. Until it does get back on schedule, logistics would be a nightmare.

Tom


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## Bob Dylan

Interesting discussion but in reality we know this proposal is DOA for all the usual reasons!

IF Amtrak is ever able to increase LD service the first step is to make all of the LD Trains Daily! The Cardinal, (but run from WAS-STL sort of a National Ltd. II) and a Daily Texas Eagle from CHI- LAX with a stub train between SAS and NOL.

Then bring back the Broadway Limited from NYP- CHI! This should be a real hit, never should have been cut!

Other long proposed improvements to the LD network that should be implemented as equipment becomes available include a CCC for the PDX Section of the EB, reschedule the Silver Trains so the Star and Meteor run 12 hours apart and being back the Silver Palm to Florida, possible Running it or one of the Silvers down the East Coast to Miami!

Everyone has their favorite LD trains and self interest in " their" train so YMMV!!


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## Mark Matarella

FormerOBS said:


> OK. I finally managed to reach somebody who worked for the Auto Train Corp. back in 1973. Just got off the phone with him. Back then all the passenger cars were single level.


At some point in time auto-train corporation DID run full domes which were two level coaches as I recall. And according to a online photo index such as this one example photo dated July 1972, they had them by then. http://www.themetrains.com/images/auto/jackowski/jackowski-auto-train-515-full-dome-coach-dorm-sanford-fl-073072_143_1024x.jpg. I panicked when I read of the employee saying auto-train didn't have them (at least at that point in time) and started to doubt my own memory. Panicked because I've been acquiring auto-train livery locos, full dome passenger cars, and auto carriers in HO scale models for a shelf train that is going to run around my kitchen.

The base of the 'theme train' page with auto-train equip is http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/AT.htm and has lots of photos, a photo index of the rolling stock. I do recall riding it and being in coach in the upper level. I loved it since you could see the train stretching out ahead and behind on the curves. The lounge was also in a upper dome with either a guitar player or keyboardist singing. THOSE were the days!

I can't imagine them doing two trains now with the current set up. As others have pointed out, when one is several hours late things would be unmanageable. I don't know how they dealt with it then.

v/r

Mark


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## tonys96

RyanS said:


> Thanks, those are great.
> 
> This seemed relevant:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2015-02-26 at 3.30.45 PM.png


And it went bankrupt.


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## FormerOBS

You're right, Mark. I misspoke. What I meant to say was that the cars used by the old Auto Train Corp., as well as those used on Amtrak's original version of the train, were not Superliner-style double deckers. They were all designed and operated as versions of Heritage equipment. Passage from car to car was on the same level as you would find on any Heritage car. The domes in each car were accessed from the main (lower) floor. I'm not sure about the origin of the Auto Train Corporation's domes except that they had some full domes from the Santa Fe. Amtrak's early Auto Train had coach domes which came (I think) from the Northern Pacific. The coach lounges were full-length "Great Domes" that had been built for the Empire Builder. Those heavy Great Domes, with their 6-wheel trucks, were among the smoothest-riding cars I ever worked. The full-length dome that Amtrak still uses, is one of the three cars that Amtrak used in this service.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify that.

Tom


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## jebr

tonys96 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, those are great.
> 
> This seemed relevant:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2015-02-26 at 3.30.45 PM.png
> 
> 
> 
> And it went bankrupt.
Click to expand...

Considering the federal government stepped in to save passenger rail in general, I don't think that the Auto Train went bankrupt because they allowed pets.


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## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, those are great.
> 
> This seemed relevant:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2015-02-26 at 3.30.45 PM.png
> 
> 
> 
> And it went bankrupt.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you are well aware of the difference between correlation and causation.


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## jebr

RyanS said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, those are great.
> 
> This seemed relevant:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2015-02-26 at 3.30.45 PM.png
> 
> 
> 
> And it went bankrupt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you are well aware of the difference between correlation and causation.
Click to expand...

You sure? After all, I think all we need to do to reduce grade crossing fatalities is stop importing oil from Norway.


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## Eric S

Well done, jebr. Well done.


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## Mark Matarella

FormerOBS said:


> You're right, Mark. I misspoke. What I meant to say was that the cars used by the old Auto Train Corp., as well as those used on Amtrak's original version of the train, were not Superliner-style double deckers. They were all designed and operated as versions of Heritage equipment. Passage from car to car was on the same level as you would find on any Heritage car. The domes in each car were accessed from the main (lower) floor. I'm not sure about the origin of the Auto Train Corporation's domes except that they had some full domes from the Santa Fe. Amtrak's early Auto Train had coach domes which came (I think) from the Northern Pacific. The coach lounges were full-length "Great Domes" that had been built for the Empire Builder. Those heavy Great Domes, with their 6-wheel trucks, were among the smoothest-riding cars I ever worked. The full-length dome that Amtrak still uses, is one of the three cars that Amtrak used in this service.
> 
> Thanks for allowing me to clarify that.
> 
> Tom


Thanks. I bow to the knowledge of all the regulars on here. I'm not the 'railfan' / expert you all are, much less ex worker in the field. I'm just a Auto Train user and fan of trains in general due to my inner child.  Thank you and everyone for the info and education. I came across that old auto-train brochure in the box with a HO auto-train set I purchased recently and thought it'd be nice to contribute some history. I WAS buying up Amtrak passenger cars and hoping to find some auto carrier similar to what Amtrak currently users when I discovered the old a-t corp models existed. I'm just going to 'model' that since I rode it quite a few times before it was taken over by Amtrak and I don't have to create / modify any rolling stock.

I see it started in Dec 1971 and must have ridden it shortly after that for the first time. I do recall back in the pre SUV and Minivan days that they had some 3 level as well as 2 level car carriers, though I don't recall if that was pre or post Amtrak. I'll look through that equipment list sometime to figure it out. If we all ever go back to regular 'cars' they could run 3 levels and shorten that part of the train at least. I've also taken my MINI Cooper several times and it's often put aside and loaded last minute. I have a hunch they still it near the motorcycle racks or something. When they were charging extra for 'over sized vehicles' I thought I should have gotten a break for the MINI!


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## FormerOBS

The Amtrak Auto train used a mixture of bilevel and trilevel Auto carriers with 4 vehicles on each level until the new cars were purchased several years ago. So the cars carried as many as 8 or 12 autos. The new carriers have two levels and can carry 5 vehicles on each level for a total of 10 autos per carrier. I don't remember the date that the old cars were retired and the new cars went into service, but you can see the build date stenciled on the cars next time you take the train. Maybe a forum member knows the date.

Many of the old carriers had come from the old Auto Train Corp., so I think the Amtrak practices were essentially the same as the Auto Train Corp.'s until the new cars went into service.

Tom


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