# Dark days ahead for the Cardinal?



## HenryK (Mar 24, 2016)

The 20th Century Railroad Club issued this today:

*"See Washington, D.C. in style. *

*"Ride with the 20th Century Railroad Club via “Private Varnish”.*

"The Club last partnered with American Rail Excursions on this trip to Washington D.C. in 2013. Our partner has informed us that railroad economics have deteriorated to the point where this could be your last chance to make this trip. There has been a significant decrease in coal rail traffic as electric plants have converted to natural gas. One of the railroads affected is CSX. Amtrak’s Cardinal route east of Cincinnati runs on CSX tracks, that includes the stretch through the scenic New River Gorge. The yard at Russell KY is being closed and over 100 employees are to be laid off. The next step that may occur is that the CSX will downgrade the route to 30 mph, which would adversely impact the operation of the Cardinal. Therefore, it is possible that this tour may be your last chance to ride Private Varnish on this former Chesapeake & Ohio mainline across Kentucky, West Virginia and Virginia.

*"If you are interested, you need to act fast as the trip leaves from Chicago on April 12th."*


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## jis (Mar 24, 2016)

Here is Philly's chance to get the Cardinal re routed via PGH!


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 24, 2016)

This has been a very hot topic on Railroad.net. One poster claims information that CSX is about to impose a 30 mph speed limit on the eastern approach line to Cincinnati as part of general downgrading of fixed plant in the coal mining areas of Kentucky, Virginia and West Virginia. This, of course; would affect the Cardinal. Other posters noted that American RAil Excursions has been using this in its promotions for excursions on the Cardinal route, perhaps to goose ridership. I haven't come across any other reference to such a downgrade of track conditions, from CSX, Amtrak, NARP, or anybody else, so take it with a grain of salt.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 24, 2016)

I think most if not all of us agree that the Cardinal is less effective if it does not run daily. If the Cardinal can't be made daily in the next few years and the track conditions get worse and the speed limits are reduced any more than they are, I think it is better to get rid of it and use those equipment on some other route where you can actually run a daily train (Daily or Bust). To me, even if it is run daily I feel it has to serve its two largest markets that are only served by the Cardinal, IND and CIN, at better times to be worthwhile (see my Ohio thread).

I think extending the Hoosier State to CIN would be worthwhile if Iowa Pacific is interested in financing it. As for east of CIN, I would say go via Columbus and Pittsburgh but those tracks are supposedly worse. Maybe CIN-NYP via 3-C and the Empire Route or 3-C and the Pennsylvanian route is the way to keep service from CIN to the NEC if the Cardinal route deteriorates further. If what these other people are saying is true, it could be cheaper to start a new LD train than make the Cardinal daily.


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## jis (Mar 24, 2016)

Believing that IP will finance a passenger service on a route where it has no freight revenue is like way beyond fantasy - it is borderline delusional


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## Railroad Bill (Mar 24, 2016)

It is interesting that Oxford, Ohio is trying to get a stop there on the Cardinal to provide ridership from Miami University. Lots of time and effort wasted if any closing down of the Cardinal is in the offing. As have been mentioned many times, the chances of a 3-C route in Ohio are little and none as long as John K is governor and the legislature is controlled by the Republicans.

I tend to favor the argument that the private excursion is hyping up its ride with this unsubstantiated claim that the Cardinal is on its last legs.

But it is true that coal traffic has been cut substantially and along with NS's cutbacks in service in Ohio and parts of West Virginia, a downgrade of the Cardinal line may be in the not so distant future??


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## FormerOBS (Mar 24, 2016)

Speaking of delusional, I like the idea of running through Philly and Pittsburgh over the NS line. If the train then switches over to CSX (ex B&O), it could return service to Youngstown and Akron, then go west to the C-C-C corridor. After that, I'm not familiar enough with the intact routes to know for sure. Possibilities might be Columbus-Indianapolis-Chicago, or Columbus-Indianapolis-St. Louis, or Columbus-Cincinnati-St. Louis. These would open up markets in Youngstown, Akron, and Columbus, which are not currently served. A direct routing on the old B&O all the way to Chicago would make life easier for Fort Wayne travelers and would return service to Defiance, Ohio, which was always a busy stop for college students of Defiance College in days past. It would also serve a significant Amish population around Nappanee. Wish I knew the condition of those other routes.

It would be a shame to lose the New River Gorge route, but if it happens, hopefully other options would open up.

Tom


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 24, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I think extending the Hoosier State to CIN would be worthwhile if Iowa Pacific is interested in financing it.


Well since Iowa Pacific doesn't finance the Hoosier State either, I don't see that happening. But I'm pretty certain IP would be happy to provide the equipment and OBS!

I'm positive I've heard or read someone talk about extending the Hoosier State to Cincinnati with another train set from IP. But I can't remember if it was anyone who had any good sources.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 24, 2016)

Unfortunately for the Cardinal, if the track is down graded, I Can see Amtrak pulling the Viewliner sleeper off to support other single level LD trains. especially during high traffic months. The CHI/IND commitment could be continued with some of the coaches with others could be added to the STL service or on the NEC.


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## bretton88 (Mar 24, 2016)

As long as this doesn't happen by next week when I take it, I'll be happy.


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## neroden (Mar 24, 2016)

The Pittburgh-Colombus route survives but it's already at worse than 30 mph conditions, unfortunately.

If CSX starts aggressively downgrading that part of the Cardinal route, the best chance would be for the Kentucky state government to buy it. I don't have a read on their views.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 25, 2016)

Railroad Bill said:


> It is interesting that Oxford, Ohio is trying to get a stop there on the Cardinal to provide ridership from Miami University. Lots of time and effort wasted if any closing down of the Cardinal is in the offing.


I think it's a waste of time and effort considering the times the train would arrive/leave Oxford (2-3am?) http://miamistudent.net/?p=17012994



neroden said:


> If CSX starts aggressively downgrading that part of the Cardinal route, the best chance would be for the Kentucky state government to buy it. I don't have a read on their views.


Unless KY can get it cheap, they're spending a lot of money on a train that serves three small cities on the far northeastern part of the state with Maysville around 1.5 hrs from Lexington and 2.5 hrs. from Louisville at less than ideal times (late night and pre-7am). The entire state of KY had just over 10,000 passengers and that's including about 4,000 at Fulton on the CONO line (https://www.amtrak.com/pdf/factsheets/KENTUCKY15.pdf). This would be like Pennsylvania spending a lot of money to help the Lake Shore Limited.

If the tracks east of CIN are downgraded, would going south to Lexington and east to Huntington be a possibility? It would add a lot track miles to the route but if you can go way above 30 mph on those tracks it may not be much longer in time than the current route with the downgraded line and you'd add a huge college town (although during the graveyard shift if the times aren't changed). But adding even one hour to the train you're looking at around 6am to 11am west and 6pm to 11pm east. Imagine if you had to add two or more hours.


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## trainviews (Mar 25, 2016)

Philly be careful what you wish for.

The obsession that you have that the Cardinal is the all important obstacle to running another direct Philadelphia-Chicago train might have been true when it was decided that the Broadway was the train to be axed. But today it's vastly outdated, at least aside from equipment, and even that is not clear as new Viewliners come online.

I think the most likely outcome if the Cardinal is going away is - that the Cardinal goes away. And that's it...

What you keep overlooking is two factors:

Amtrak has a mandate to run the current LD's for the subsidy it gets from congress. It is also under considerable pressure to lower the operational deficit as much as possible. If you look at the debate around the Sunset East (or whatever it would end up being called) Amtrak has made it perfectly clear that it is not going to start any sort of new money losing service (or even service at risk of being money losing) UNLESS SOMEBODY ELSE PAYS FOR IT. The 750 mile rule has no automatic application to any new routes, and indeed Amtrak can only under very limited circumstances start new routes on its own dime without an act of congress. (and in the case of the Sunset East, it actually could - but won't as it would be very bad politics in the current political climate)

The second factor you overlook is the steep start up costs. Even though a new Broadway Limited probably fall under the routes Amtrak could start on its own it is much more expensive than getting the cars available. The approach to Chicago is one of the most congested rail lines in the country, and sure as hell NS is not going to say "yeah sure" to another passenger train without hefty compensation for capacity upgrades. Who are going to pay for that? Indiana couldn't care less and forget Ohio under the present leadership too. Amtrak itself has a 1000 pressing needs for capital investments and will only fund very incremental projects (a share of the Raton pass, maybe the shift needed in Pittsburgh for through cars).

So getting your pet train has very little to do with the Cardinal and everything to do with congress, Pennsylvania and Ohio. Lobby them if you really want it!


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 25, 2016)

Trainviews, your are telling it like it is (I guess that phrase really dates me), if the Cardinal goes away (or is replaced by two separate trains on each end), it will just go away. There will be no "replacement" train. Philly, start writing your senators and congressman if you want some action on a revived Broadway. Endless posts on a website aren't going to accomplish anything.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 25, 2016)

MikefromCrete said:


> Trainviews, your are telling it like it is (I guess that phrase really dates me), if the Cardinal goes away (or is replaced by two separate trains on each end), it will just go away. There will be no "replacement" train. Philly, start writing your senators and congressman if you want some action on a revived Broadway. Endless posts on a website aren't going to accomplish anything.


Neither is asking Congress. One person writing Congress isn't going to get any of them to do anything. Any email will probably wind up buried in some representative's or senator's mailbox if I'm lucky and their trash bin if I'm not. Same with any paper mail. I think the best approach would be advocacy groups. All Aboard Ohio IMO has been the loudest to restarting a Broadway Limited of anyone I know. They've also pushed for 3-C and CIN-CHI on their webpage among others. Chances are good Congress knows there is a demand for these routes and if they don't, they'd more likely listen to AAO telling them than some single guy telling them (if they listen to anyone at all). And I'm sure anyone asking Congress will get the same response: how would you like to pay for it?

I guess if we consider going through PA a rerouted Cardinal it may be easier for Amtrak to accept than a new route.

And I'm no fan of Congress. If it weren't for them (Byrd), the BL would still be running today.


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## Alex M. (Mar 25, 2016)

Since they plan to extend service from Lynchburg to Roanoke, maybe reroute the Cardinal over NS through Bluefield to CIN and onto Chicago on its present route. It would be neat for its first trip between Lynchburg and Radford to have 611 pull it!


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## jis (Mar 25, 2016)

Philly, if you were really serious you could try to get DVARP on board and see if they will take it up as a cause. They have considerable impact on SEPTA affairs and probably have the right contacts in the halls of power at least in Pennsylvania. Frankly I don;t see a Broadway Limited happening unless some Republicans from Ohio decide to take up its cause, or the Republicans get comprehensively ousted from their current perch in that part of the country. As long as Kasich is around - forget it.



Alex M. said:


> Since they plan to extend service from Lynchburg to Roanoke, maybe reroute the Cardinal over NS through Bluefield to CIN and onto Chicago on its present route. It would be neat for its first trip between Lynchburg and Radford to have 611 pull it!


That will almost certainly make it a two night affair.


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## City of Miami (Mar 25, 2016)

Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand but #51 just went through Charlottesville with 1 bag, 2 sleepers, 1 business class coach, 1 café car and 3 coaches. I don't recall ever seeing a longer consist there.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 25, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Trainviews, your are telling it like it is (I guess that phrase really dates me), if the Cardinal goes away (or is replaced by two separate trains on each end), it will just go away. There will be no "replacement" train. Philly, start writing your senators and congressman if you want some action on a revived Broadway. Endless posts on a website aren't going to accomplish anything.
> ...


Congress controls the purse strings. I sure that everybody here would welcome a revived Broadway, but that won't move the project one iota. Join a passenger advocacy group, like NARP, or the Delaware Valley one, or even the Ohio group. If it wasn't for the Midwest High Speed Rail Association and its lobbying efforts, there would only be two state supported roundtrips CHI-STL, instead of the four now operating. Believe me, legislators listen to their constituents. It wouldn't hurt to get rid of a bunch of those Tea Party types that don't believe in government, but your ordinary legislator usually listens very well to the voters.


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## WabashMike (Mar 25, 2016)

Personally I would prefer Cardinal to terminate in St.Louis via Louisville KY. I know there's a snowball s chance in Ecuador for it happening.

I always thought it silly to have basically two Washington to Chicago trains. I like the Cardinal route better than the Capital. I much prefer Cincinnati over Cleveland.

But given the fight to save the much maligned Hoosier State, Indiana would drop the Hoosier state in a heart beat if they had to pay more in subsidies to stretch the train to Cincinnati.

But Amtrak has survived a lot longer than anyone would have even dared dream in 1970s, so we shall see


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## trainviews (Mar 26, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Trainviews, your are telling it like it is (I guess that phrase really dates me), if the Cardinal goes away (or is replaced by two separate trains on each end), it will just go away. There will be no "replacement" train. Philly, start writing your senators and congressman if you want some action on a revived Broadway. Endless posts on a website aren't going to accomplish anything.
> ...


Well, without Congress (the current one) no passenger trains would be running at all  . Like them or not, they have the power.

And of course working through an advocacy group is more likely to have an impact than just writing letters on you own. Find the most efficient way.

You are also right that a ressurected BL or the like is one of the most feasible options for a new LD train. It's not an outlandish request and that should help the advocacy.

What is not helping is endlessly complaining about the Cardinal or the late sen. Byrd or that Amtrak should do this or that on this forum.


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## WoodyinNYC (Mar 27, 2016)

trainviews said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


Of course the _Broadway Limited_ would be a good train to restore. It makes sense, and the notion should get support.

However, advocating the death of one train to gain another simply gains enemies, from those who like the _Cardinal _as is. Those would surely include CongressCritters from Virginia, West Virginia, Indiana, and maybe even from Kentucky and Ohio. Does the _Broadway Limited _need enemies?

The Commonwealth of Virginia seems to like the _Cardinal_ very millions of dollars. It is spending to upgrade the Buckingham Railroad uphill from Charlottesville to near the WVa border. Virginia spends big money while you campaign to flush the train? Do you want to make Virginia an enemy of the _Broadway Limited_? Let it go.

Meanwhile I just have to point out that the _Cardinal_ has a good performance -- remarkable considering that it is crippled by the 3-day-a-week service. It carries more than 100,000 riders today and would double that by going daily. The PRIIA study said it would lose a measly $2 million more a year by doing so. But that number is small -- and out of date, from 2009 -- so going daily might actually generate NO added loss. Virginia DOT might step up and promise to cover the forecast added loss from daily operations, especially if it believes there won't be any such thing.

As a general principle, we don't need to cut any Amtrak route. We need to add more routes, like the _Broadway Limited_, because the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.


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## Anderson (Mar 27, 2016)

I get a feeling that there's some advertising puff in here. That being said...can anybody give me a good feel for how much slowing the route down to 30 MPH on various sections would actually impact it? i.e. Are we looking at adding 30 minutes somewhere or something more drastic?

Also, and I hate to say this, but haven't we heard a similar "dying duck" routine a few times before? This feels _awfully_ like the Devil's Lake affair...

...though to be fair, if CSX is seriously looking at downgrading track it would be interesting to see their reaction if Amtrak turned around and demanded a daily Cardinal as the price for the schedule changes attached to it (and similarly interesting to see CSX try to justify any sort of demands for improvements on the route).


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 27, 2016)

Oh yes, we've heard this before many times! Raton Pass, Michigan, etc. Obviously they all are unique situations.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 27, 2016)

if CSX is going to downgrade the route, what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash? Could the state's US Senators and Reps, plus the Governors put forth acceptable proposals in Congress for funding in addition to the states and Amtrak?


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 27, 2016)

Lonestar648 said:


> if CSX is going to downgrade the route, what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash? Could the state's US Senators and Reps, plus the Governors put forth acceptable proposals in Congress for funding in addition to the states and Amtrak?


It's possible, but the states are Kentucky, which hasn't gotten into the passenger business before, and Ohio, where the governor, Republican presidential hopeful Kaisch, once cancelled the Three C's intra-Ohio service before it could get started and called passenger train supporters "cultists." Of course, Kansas, Colorado and New Mexico never did anything for LD passenger trains before the Southwest Chief crisis, so anything can happen.


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## jis (Mar 27, 2016)

But Colorado and New Mexico did support new regional train service. Can't say that for Kentucky or Ohio. OTOH Indiana does support such, though apparently quite reluctantly.


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## west point (Mar 27, 2016)

Anderson: A quick calculation of 30 MPH MAS Russell - Cincinnati including the stops and refueling seems to change the enroute time from 3:20 to 5:20. wonder how bad that would be ?


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 27, 2016)

The Cardinal already takes more than 3 hours to go the 123 miles from Indianapolis to Cincinnati, so I don't think the additional time will cause a mass exodus of passengers. Nobody rides the Cardinal for a fast ride.


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## MattW (Mar 27, 2016)

The railfan in me couldn't help but chuckle at the title. If CSX truly downgrades the line, they may remove the signaling thus making it "dark" for the Cardinal in other ways than just the metaphorical!


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## neroden (Mar 27, 2016)

Lonestar648 said:


> if CSX is going to downgrade the route, what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash? Could the state's US Senators and Reps, plus the Governors put forth acceptable proposals in Congress for funding in addition to the states and Amtrak?


We don't know. CSX is known for making outlandish "ransom level" price requests as a starting point in negotiations, and then giving in for much more reasonable prices.

The cities along this part of the line have a strong record of advocacy for train service, which is a good thing. Kentucky state government is a big question mark. I can't think of anyone in KY state government with the same reputation for *hostility* to train service as the Kasich gang in Ohio.


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## WoodyinNYC (Mar 27, 2016)

Lonestar648 said:


> . . . what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and, to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash?


The PRIIA study said the Cardinal could lose *a measly $2 million more a year by going daily*.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/536/878/PRIIA-210-Cardinal-PIP.pdf

pages 7 & 8

That small number is out of date, from 2009. Today going daily might actually generate NO added operating loss.

It's quite conceivable that the Virginia DOT might step up and promise to cover any added loss -- especially if it believes there won't be any such thing.

So the daily thing should be a non-factor. Losing good trackage and adding 3 hours to the trip could present a very large but very different problem.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 27, 2016)

WoodyinNYC said:


> As a general principle, we don't need to cut any Amtrak route. We need to add more routes, like the _Broadway Limited_, because the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.


That costs more money. How do we get it? That requires more equipment. How do we get it? More money. How do we get it?

If Amtrak has a limited amount of equipment and money, we're all fighting for it. So if I want a certain train, I can either try to get more money (which looks like it isn't happening) or say well why not cut this train so we can get the equipment/money. We shouldn't be competing for trains but harsh reality ... we are. Unless you have a plan to get more money. And if Congress actually decides to spend more money, you can probably guess where it's coming from.



WoodyinNYC said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > . . . what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and, to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash?
> ...


I'll believe it when I see it. Amtrak asked for a daily Cardinal over five years ago and we still don't have it. You still have to negotiate with Buckingham Branch and CSX. Nobody knows what that price tag is going to be.

And if you want any help from Kentucky and Ohio you might want to make the train more attractive to them. If I were the governor of Ohio or the mayor of Cincinnati, I wouldn't raise my residents' taxes or cut any important spending like education or health care to pay for a train that serves my city/state during the graveyard shift.



WoodyinNYC said:


> So the daily thing should be a non-factor. Losing good trackage and adding 3 hours to the trip could present a very large but very different problem.


You'd either lose the connection to the west and/or the arrival times in NYP will be during the graveyard shift.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 28, 2016)

OK, let me go from a different angle.

There are some of you who want and are pushing for a daily Cardinal but also would like to see new and/or revived trains as well. People ask me why should I have to choose between the Cardinal and the Broadway Limited and ask me why not both. I mention the cost factor but assuming cost is not a factor or can be resolved with better Congress budgeting, I have no problem supporting BOTH making the Cardinal daily AND reviving the Broadway (the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian through cars as proposed would eliminate the required transfer but not the four hour layover in PGH going west). If you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And I'm not saying just the Broadway, why not other routes like 3-C, Louisville/Nashville service, service between NOL and Florida? I'm not against growing the system. The best cure for Amtrak is more Amtrak? I don't disagree.

The problem I mainly have is people pouring cold water and saying the BL or other new/revived trains will never happen. They say we don't have the money and/or the freight companies won't allow it. If that is true, then the Cardinal isn't going daily because ... we don't have the money and/or the freight companies won't allow it.

If you want to push for a daily Cardinal, push for other new trains as well. If not, then you're choosing the Cardinal over the Broadway Limited or other trains. You can't tell me to spend more money for the Cardinal and not for other trains. If you don't want me to say the Broadway Limited is more important than the Cardinal, don't say the Cardinal is more important than the Broadway Limited either.


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## tricia (Mar 28, 2016)

MikefromCrete said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > if CSX is going to downgrade the route, what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash? Could the state's US Senators and Reps, plus the Governors put forth acceptable proposals in Congress for funding in addition to the states and Amtrak?
> ...


Current political climate in Kentucky isn't supportive of gov't funding of ANYTHING. For example, here's a quote from a usually well-informed poster on a different listserv, focusing on cuts in education funding: "The proposed budget, supported by the Tea Party Governor of Kentucky, that passed the Kentucky Senate calls for a 4.5% cut [in education funding] before the end of the fiscal year and a 9% reduction for the next two years. (The 9% cuts are also planned for all other state agencies.) The Kentucky house has a counter proposal that freezes all education at current levels. "


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## andersone (Mar 28, 2016)

The best thing that could happen to Ohio Rail is Kasich moving to the big house. Uncle Ted ( a good Portsmouth man) is running for Senator (against another Appalachian Portman) and his old district covered almost the entirety of the Cardinal Route (albeit across the river) . Ted knows about the Card. Unfortunately it is KY that holds the key,, get it to Huntington and you are back in WVA and almost heaven.


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## west point (Mar 28, 2016)

If the additional 2 hours are added to arrivals / departures at NYP that might work. It could work with the present NEC routes by taking slot(s) WASH <> NYP. Could add subtract cars at WASH much like the Palmetto is done now improving the fare return for the CARDINAL. Problem of late arrivals into WASH would need thought.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 28, 2016)

west point said:


> If the additional 2 hours are added to arrivals / departures at NYP that might work.


That would be departure at 4:45am and arrival at 11:58pm. Still think it works? Arriving at 11:58pm is pretty undesirable. Leaving at 4:45am? Are you kidding me. Watch NYP ridership plummet. Might as well truncate at WAS then.


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## west point (Mar 28, 2016)

But the times proposed at NYP is in slots that already used by regional trains. Actually more passengers NYP <> WASH. The need to rotate the equipment at Sunnyside to the Crescent and silver service has to be considered. Granted there might be some passenger loss NEC to intermediate stations to Indianapolis but the importance of western connections at CHI cannot be overlooked.


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## JoeBas (Mar 28, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> If you want to push for a daily Cardinal, push for other new trains as well. If not, then you're choosing the Cardinal over the Broadway Limited or other trains. You can't tell me to spend more money for the Cardinal and not for other trains. If you don't want me to say the Broadway Limited is more important than the Cardinal, don't say the Cardinal is more important than the Broadway Limited either.


Sorry, but I do have to point out, that in practical terms, a real train IS more important than a fantasy one.


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## CCC1007 (Mar 28, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > If the additional 2 hours are added to arrivals / departures at NYP that might work.
> ...


If the Card is turned at WAS, might as well free up the single level equipment and scrape together some superliner sets for it. Back in the late 90's early 2000's, this train ran with a coach baggage, a coach, a lounge, and a sleeper dragged by a single locomotive.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2016)

From sadly, the ever decreasing pool of available Superliner cars of course. We have to wait until the Midwest and California regional bi-levels are delivered to free up barely enough to make that possible I suppose.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 28, 2016)

Let's keep the discussion here specific to the Cardinal and directly related issues. Discussion about new or revived services can be taken to the Amtrak Future sub-forum.


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## WoodyinNYC (Mar 28, 2016)

jis said:


> From sadly, the ever decreasing pool of available Superliner cars of course. We have to wait until the Midwest and California regional bi-levels are delivered to free up barely enough to make that possible I suppose.


*Nippon Sharyu, where are you?*


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## WoodyinNYC (Mar 28, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> Let's keep the discussion here specific to the Cardinal and directly related issues. Discussion about new or revived services can be taken to the Amtrak Future sub-forum.


The question of whether to pit one train, real or hypothetical, and how to pay for them in either case, is a good one for discussion.

Could you carve out most of the recent either/or posts to create a new thread?


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## Palmland (Mar 28, 2016)

Why not make the Capitol a Viewliner train with the new cars coming on line. It would make the Pittsburgh connection easier - if they find the funding for the new switch that's needed. It would also make it possible to extend the Capitol to Phila/NY.

Then make the Cardinal a daily train to Cincinnati with Superliner cars. That route really needs a SSL on it. Indiana can fund a daily Hoosier if they want to. Route miles saved would do a lot to offsetting the cost of a daily train as far as Cinci from DC. Then add multiple Thruway connection from Huntington and/or Cinci to central Ohio and Kentucky cities. It appears CSX is shifting traffic away from Cincinnati and with a lower speed might make it possible to use that as leverage to negotiate storage/servicing track in Cinci and the daily service on a shorter route. That still leaves three trains (counting the Pennsylvanian/CL connection) to serve through traffic from the NEC to Chicago.


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## JoeBas (Mar 28, 2016)

Palmland said:


> Then make the Cardinal a daily train to Cincinnati with Superliner cars.
> 
> That route really needs a SSL on it. Indiana can fund a daily Hoosier if they want to.


Not to New York you don't. Why does it "NEED" a SSL?


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## A Voice (Mar 28, 2016)

Palmland said:


> Why not make the Capitol a Viewliner train with the new cars coming on line. It would make the Pittsburgh connection easier - if they find the funding for the new switch that's needed. It would also make it possible to extend the Capitol to Phila/NY.
> 
> Then make the Cardinal a daily train to Cincinnati with Superliner cars. That route really needs a SSL on it. Indiana can fund a daily Hoosier if they want to. Route miles saved would do a lot to offsetting the cost of a daily train as far as Cinci from DC. Then add multiple Thruway connection from Huntington and/or Cinci to central Ohio and Kentucky cities. It appears CSX is shifting traffic away from Cincinnati and with a lower speed might make it possible to use that as leverage to negotiate storage/servicing track in Cinci and the daily service on a shorter route. That still leaves three trains (counting the Pennsylvanian/CL connection) to serve through traffic from the NEC to Chicago.


Amtrak is only getting enough Viewliner II diners for existing single level long distance trans, unless the _Silver Star_ really is left permanently without a diner (and I don't believe that), and just enough sleepers to provide for the "extras" already needed. Moving some to the _Capitol Limited _would take up cars needed elsewhere, and you would still have the problem of finding more Amfleet II coaches (where are they to come from?). Actually, why does the _Cardinal_ need Superliners worse than the _Capitol Limited_ does?

Truncating the _Cardinal_ at Cincinnati would seriously harm ridership; What about all the people currently traveling through Cincinnati and Indianapolis? You're not going to keep (most of) those passengers with a Thruway bus connection.

People are still pitting one train against another (the old "trains for me but none for thee" theme). That doesn't help the cause.


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## CCC1007 (Mar 28, 2016)

A Voice said:


> Palmland said:
> 
> 
> > Why not make the Capitol a Viewliner train with the new cars coming on line. It would make the Pittsburgh connection easier - if they find the funding for the new switch that's needed. It would also make it possible to extend the Capitol to Phila/NY.
> ...


I was simply saying that if the cardinal is cut back to Washington, it would be better to convert it to superliner as it would not take many cars to do so, and would free up some viewliners to use elsewhere.


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## A Voice (Mar 28, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > Palmland said:
> ...


I'd agree with that, so long as there are more available Superliners than there is single level equipment. But taking those Superliners away from the _Capitol Limited_ wouldn't help.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 28, 2016)

JoeBas said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to push for a daily Cardinal, push for other new trains as well. If not, then you're choosing the Cardinal over the Broadway Limited or other trains. You can't tell me to spend more money for the Cardinal and not for other trains. If you don't want me to say the Broadway Limited is more important than the Cardinal, don't say the Cardinal is more important than the Broadway Limited either.
> ...


In practical terms, a daily Cardinal also is a fantasy at this moment. Some of you have to accept that maybe the Cardinal won't be daily a year or two from now (or will require a bit of money and/or track negotiations and improvements) and possibly if the track is downgraded it will take longer than it does right now. If that's the case, is it worth keeping? If so, how?


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## jis (Mar 28, 2016)

So we move from discussing one fantasy to another, each somehow involving discontinuing the Cardinal. Quite an obsession you've got there eh?


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## benale (Mar 30, 2016)

I remember when The Cardinal was a Superliner. Great views through New River. A Sightseer Car is so much nicer than watching the scenery from the cafe car on a Viewliner.

The Cardinal is one of two 3 day a week trains. The other is The Sunset Limited. The only time East or Westbound you get get on the Cardinal from The Eagle or Vice Versa with a same day connection is on Saturday Eastbound if you are taking the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles or any point West of San Antonio. In two weeks I'll be taking 422 from LA connecting with 50 and then 97 to Florida. Certainly didn't want to waste an AGR award on 91.. Glad it worked out that way. While 29/30 are Superliners and are faster, The Cardinal does offer some really amazing scenery.


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## DSS&A (Apr 7, 2016)

Hi,

Does anyone have information about the status of the Virginia funded improvements on the Cardinal route on the Buckingham Branch railroad and the Orange,VA to Gordonsville upgrade from 30mph to 59mph track? Has the drop in the quantity of coal business reduced the volume of empty CSX coal trains on the Buckingham Branch RR which affect on-time performance?


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## WoodyinNYC (May 4, 2016)

From an article in the Ashland, VA, _Herald-Progress_, about possible reroute on the D.C.-Richmond corridor to avoid downtown Ashland, comes ...

*more gloom about the Cardinal route*.

http://www.herald-progress.com/county-rescinds-initial-rail-recommendation/



> ...Ashland resident and former Amtrak engineer Doug Riddell sent a letter...expressing his professional advice...
> 
> “It’s not high speed rail, that’s not the issue,” Riddell said. “Capacity is the issue.”
> 
> He added that CSX is predicted to...downgrade the rails running through West Virginia and Kentucky. According to Riddell, CSX has found a more efficient route from Chicago to Pittsburgh, then through Washington D.C. down to Florida — which would result in traffic being “funneled” through Ashland.


The link was originally posted by jis in the "Richmond-Washington HSR Plans?" thread.


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## jis (May 4, 2016)

Funny thing about that quote is that AFAIK there were very few through Chicago - Southeast trains that were ever run on the Cardinal route by CSX. That route is and was mostly about Coal trains. The through trains from west mostly ran through Washington anyway. So it is not like CSX suddenly decided to make a huge change for those.


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## dlagrua (May 4, 2016)

We are discussing the downgrade of the CSX lines through WV due to the loss of freight business caused by excessive over regulation of the coal industry. The question becomes how this situation might affect the Cardinal schedule or the train itself.

I predict that a change in the Washington administration this Nov.will restore the coaling business boom big time. The Cardinal and the miners will be fine.


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## CCC1007 (May 4, 2016)

dlagrua said:


> We are discussing the downgrade of the CSX lines through WV due to the loss of freight business caused by excessive over regulation of the coal industry. The question becomes how this situation might affect the Cardinal schedule or the train itself.
> 
> I predict that a change in the Washington administration this Nov.will restore the coaling business boom big time. The Cardinal and the miners will be fine.


The main problem in that area with coal is that what coal is left will cost more to mine than it currently is worth. No change in policy will directly bring it back.


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## Bob Dylan (May 4, 2016)

Contradiction in terms: "Clean Coal"

Presidential Candidates Platforms re the Coal Industry:

GOTP Nominee: " Trust me! It'll be Huge! "

Demo-Socialist Nominee: "Were gonna put a lot of Coal Miners out of Work"! ( Biggest Gaffe of the Campaign so far!)


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## Eric S (May 4, 2016)

dlagrua said:


> We are discussing the downgrade of the CSX lines through WV due to the loss of freight business caused by excessive over regulation of the coal industry. The question becomes how this situation might affect the Cardinal schedule or the train itself.
> 
> I predict that a change in the Washington administration this Nov.will restore the coaling business boom big time. The Cardinal and the miners will be fine.


That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.


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## WoodyinNYC (May 4, 2016)

Eric S said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > ... the downgrade of the CSX lines through WV due to the loss of freight business caused by excessive over regulation of the coal industry. ...
> ...


And coal is declining for technological reasons, as well. Solar power gets cheaper every year. Year after year. Every year. The competitive pressure won't be going away.

Fracking technology created an oil & gas production boom in the U.S., so that petroleum undercut coal prices.

And not technological: Saudi Arabia is pumping oil without any production limits, glutting the world market. (It's almost as if they fear that some emerging power source will soon displace the market for oil & gas, so sell it while they can ! )

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm sorry about the coal miners. They don't deserve it.

We should be working on plans to bring new jobs to the coal field regions, because the mining jobs aren't ever coming back.

btw. Canceling the _Cardinal_ will not help West Virginia or Eastern Kentucky at all. They need every connection to the prosperous Eastern Seaboard they can get. A corridor train, Ashland-Huntington-Charleston-Charlottesville-D.C., as a second frequency on this line, would be helpful.


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## andersone (May 5, 2016)

I live here. They used to have a 17 mile conveyor that ran directly from the mine to the power plant. It and all the coal jobs are gone. IT happens. Portsmouth used to be the shoe capital of the world. No more. Things change. Everyone has learned to live without coal, and my brothers and sisters across the river (West Virginia) will learn to live it with it too. It's not coming back. Its old technology. We have lived to learn without it. In the words of Thad Motta "Deal With It."

Change is the only consistency in life. This is one of them. CSX is only being realistic, My advice is to travel through the New River Gorge before the Cardinal dies. BTW, the prime protector of the Cardinal, Senator Robert Byrd is long gone. Enjoy it while you can because you never know when it is going to disappear (that's the two time cancer survivor in me) While you are at it, hug your loved ones a few extra times.


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## neroden (May 5, 2016)

I've analyzed the energy businesses pretty intensively. We are watching the end of the fossil fuel age. It's going to be very exciting, actually.

Woody has summarized the market situation correctly.


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## Palmland (May 5, 2016)

I talked with a CSX engineer in Florence. He had been laid off in Russell. He had heard the line from Russell to Columbus would be downgraded. Had heard nothing about doing same with rest of C&O main lines.


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## dlagrua (May 5, 2016)

Eric S said:


> That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.


I would agree that coal use is declining in the USA but due to EPA regulation. if I am not mistaken though most of the coal that is mined in WV is exported to third world countries. PA anthracite hard coal is the clean coal as it burns with a blue flame.The coal in Southern WV is soft Bituminous coal and it needs a smoke stack scrubber to burn somewhat clean. It should be remembered that Amtrak runs most routes on fossil fuel and this also generates air pollution but far less pollution per passenger than in an automobile. Years back it was thought that nuclear fuel was the answer but look how that turned out.

As for this post on the Cardinal, transporting fuel oil and coal is the lifeblood of the railroad industry. If that goes away our railroad system goes away. .


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## Eric S (May 5, 2016)

dlagrua said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.
> ...


I'd refer you to Woody's post above. Coal is declining due to economic and technological reasons, not strictly political/regulatory reasons.

And I highly doubt that the railroad system will "go away" if coal and oil continue to decline.


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## CCC1007 (May 5, 2016)

Eric S said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Eric S said:
> ...


Especially since most products travel by train at least once in their production lines.


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## jis (May 5, 2016)

Actually the adjustments that the railroads have to make to deal with high value time sensitive goods as compared to relatively time insensitive bulk items will inevitably have to hammer some discipline into their dispatching systems and dispatchers, and move more towards a scheduled railroad away from "Oh we will run it whenever we can and feel like it" approach. Which at the end of the day can only be good for the scheduled passenger services trying to be tenants on the railroad.


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## tricia (May 5, 2016)

dlagrua said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.
> ...


Diagrua's position seems to be: Don't confuse me with the facts.


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## jis (May 5, 2016)

Speaking of Anthracite and its central importance mentioned by dlagrua, I found this informative slideset:

http://www.marston.com/portals/0/coaltrans_antra_poland_2009.pdf

I was shocked to learn that in today's world, US is considered to be a minor produces and even more minor exporter and most of the export apparently is to Canada!

the biggest reserves are in China, Russia and Viet Nam. China is by far the largest producer, producing an order of magnitude more than the US. Other western countries that mine Anthracite are Canada, UK and Germany, with Spain contributing a bit.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (May 5, 2016)

andersone said:


> Change is the only consistency in life. This is one of them. CSX is only being realistic, My advice is to travel through the New River Gorge before the Cardinal dies. BTW, the prime protector of the Cardinal, Senator Robert Byrd is long gone. Enjoy it while you can because you never know when it is going to disappear (that's the two time cancer survivor in me) While you are at it, hug your loved ones a few extra times.


I think the fact that the Cardinal needs a "prime protector" is telling. You know who's the prime protector of the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Meteor, and other successful trains? The riders.


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## jis (May 5, 2016)

Oh, the Lake Shore Limited was started as a state supported train by New York and Ohio, and indeed there were some serious prime protectors of it back then. Ohio dropped support but New York picked up the slack and kept it going until the prime protectors were able to twist Amtrak's arms and foist it off onto them. So yeah, just because a train has had a prime protector does not mean it will always need it. We will see about the Cardinal.

Remember, the prime protector initially of the Texas Eagle was the riders group until they managed to catch Kay Bailey Hutchinson's attention.And thence it evolved into a train that did not need any immediate prime protector beyond the active riders association. The best prime protector are activist riders.

BTW, if something serious like cancellation were thought of for the Silver Meteor or Silver Star, I know of a few that will rise up as prime protectors. At present we are just worrying about getting adequate food service back on the Star. We are waiting eagerly for Boardman's departure to address that one in right earnest. We need someone in command who can disown previous decisions without losing face. That is why it is bad to have the same CEO for more than a few years specially if he starts going off the deep end.


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## Bob Dylan (May 5, 2016)

Maybe if Joe retires to Florida the Star will get the Diner back PDQ!


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## jis (May 5, 2016)

I know for a fact that Joe is retiring to somewhere around Rome, New York. He told us so in Silver Spring at the NARP meeting!


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (May 5, 2016)

jis said:


> Oh, the Lake Shore Limited was started as a state supported train by New York and Ohio, and indeed there were some serious prime protectors of it back then. Ohio dropped support but New York picked up the slack and kept it going until the prime protectors were able to twist Amtrak's arms and foist it off onto them. So yeah, just because a train has had a prime protector does not mean it will always need it. We will see about the Cardinal.
> 
> Remember, the prime protector initially of the Texas Eagle was the riders group until they managed to catch Kay Bailey Hutchinson's attention.And thence it evolved into a train that did not need any immediate prime protector beyond the active riders association. The best prime protector are activist riders.
> 
> BTW, if something serious like cancellation were thought of for the Silver Meteor or Silver Star, I know of a few that will rise up as prime protectors. At present we are just worrying about getting adequate food service back on the Star. We are waiting eagerly for Boardman's departure to address that one in right earnest. We need someone in command who can disown previous decisions without losing face. That is why it is bad to have the same CEO for more than a few years specially if he starts going off the deep end.


Well the LSL and SM weren't on Brock Adams's hit list. Then again, neither was the BL. But we all know which train was and was actually cancelled before the prime protector butted in.


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## JoeBas (May 5, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, the Lake Shore Limited was started as a state supported train by New York and Ohio, and indeed there were some serious prime protectors of it back then. Ohio dropped support but New York picked up the slack and kept it going until the prime protectors were able to twist Amtrak's arms and foist it off onto them. So yeah, just because a train has had a prime protector does not mean it will always need it. We will see about the Cardinal.
> ...


I haven't heard about this before. Please, tell me more.


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## jis (May 5, 2016)

See: http://history.amtrak.com/blogs/blog/a-new-map-emerges

This is part of Philliy's continuing campaign following his hero Brock Adams to discontinue the Cardinal I suppose


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## keelhauled (May 5, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I think the fact that the Cardinal needs a "prime protector" is telling. You know who's the prime protector of the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Meteor, and other successful trains? The riders.


Sometimes I wonder if you're actually a robot programmed to say the same words in varying orders.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (May 6, 2016)

Here's the robot's next comment.

This article specifically mentions Byrd's status as "protector" of the Cardinal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1995/04/07/amtrak-cuts-more-routes-across-nation/e526bc63-0b9e-41d5-8dc3-f8a2b075c696/

I'll even say eliminating Dallas-Houston could've been more stupid than eliminating the Broadway Limited. You save running a train what 300 miles?

And here's the real head scratcher. The proposal was to terminate the Cardinal in Cincinnati westbound (Washington-Cincinnati only) and Byrd "approved" of it. So in other words, let's cut off Indy and Chicago from the Cardinal completely and just run a train from Washington to Cincinnati. Can you imagine the Cardinal without running through Indy? Forget 100,000 a year, you'd be lucky to get 50,000 a year. If I had to save a portion of the Cardinal., absolutely Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati without a doubt and anyone who thinks otherwise must live in West Virginia.

Of course the CIN-CHI leg was spared but the Broadway and Dallas-Houston cuts were.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/AMTRAK'S+SERVICE+CHANGES+TO+THE+CARDINAL,+HOOSIER+STATE,+BROADWAY...-a017366297

I've blamed Congress for Amtrak's mistakes but in reality I shouldn't blame them all because of one bad apple. And why is he dictating Amtrak? I thought that was the job of the Secretary of Transportation.

Maybe we should stop acting like Byrd is a hero to Amtrak. He's a hero to West Virginia. To the rest of the country, he's selfish. He probably would've cut the CL and LSL to save the Cardinal too.


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## jis (May 6, 2016)

It is the job of representatives to fight for services for their constituents. By design they are supposed to be selfish. I have no idea what you are moaning about, other than perhaps that you can't find a legislator who is willing to fight for your agenda. Posting the same stuff 1800 times here is not going to change that. Team up with like-minded people in your area and go and meet up with your Senator and Congressperson and convince them to take up your case. That might be more productive, though there are no guarantees.

That is what the Gulf Coast folks are doing. That is the way the system works in representative democracy. Admittedly sometimes the results are not anywhere near what I would like. However, as they say it is a ousy system, but the rest are even worse.


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## Seaboard92 (May 6, 2016)

The interesting thing is the C&O which is the Cardinal route all their trains terminated in Cincy. But that's where their trackage ended. Cincy at one time had several terminating trains. The New York Central, PRR, B&O, C&O, N&W, and Southern all had tons of trains terminate there. Philly you should read up on the railroad prior to amtrak. Then argue for the level of soft service(frills) and routes


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## Thirdrail7 (May 6, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Here's the robot's next comment.
> 
> This article specifically mentions Byrd's status as "protector" of the Cardinal.
> 
> ...


Once again, I'll say it: You're just jealous. Your defunct train is gone because even though it had a rich history, no one stood up and offered the money to save it. The REAL telling point of this article is this tidbit:



> Key members of Congress have warned Amtrak that they would not vote to subsidize the heavily traveled coastal corridors unless the nation's heartland also has trains.


As I've mentioned in the past, members of Congress had the power to take action. They could have voted for more funding. They could have attached riders, voted for their states to chip in more or even spent money, saving the infrastructure that the hosts were downgrading or abandoning.

When Downs went to PA and Ohio, here's what they did when they could have saved the Broadway:












Even the Western States said "run our trains....or else." Hell, even Don Young of *HAWAII * which is a state without trains threw his muscle behind all or nothing. You wish Pennsylvania would have had a Byrd....or ANYONE that would taken a stance.

They didn't. They didn't raise a stink, let alone a dollar.

So, please stop hijacking threads, whining about your unsupported train in a state that just recently saw the light and agreed to fund SEPTA, improvements to the Keystone corridor and backed off surrendering the Pennsylvanian.

During the time the Broadway was cut, Maine was planting the seeds that would germinate into the Downeaster service. That's because Olympia Snowe put her money where her mouth was and put a pit bull on the case, going so far as to roll on the host railroad:



> Maine trains primarily haul freight, not people
> 
> *Pan Am was forced into an arranged marriage with Amtrak two decades ago when the federally funded passenger rail service told Fink that it planned to run on Pan Am's privately owned tracks, like it or not.*
> 
> Fink said it was a very rocky start, but that affection has grown in the past two decades.





> "Patricia Quinn is the main reason that happened," said Fink. Quinn, who is the executive director of the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (NNEPRA), shepherded the process of getting passenger rail to Maine over the past 12 years.
> 
> "Patricia came in with the attitude that she was a guest in our home," said Fink.





> It was an approach that allowed a dialogue to begin and a relationship to bloom between Pan Am, NNEPRA and Amtrak. Pan Am's concern was that providing passenger service could compromise their freight service, which is the bulk of their business.
> 
> "We were very concerned that it not be detrimental to freight," he said. It wasn't. "We were able to add capacity for freight." - See more at: http://freepress60.1upprelaunch.com/Content/Special-Features/Special-Features/Article/All-Aboard-the-Train-to-Maine/52/78/23005#sthash.uSPsNX98.dpuf


That's fighting for a train...and twenty+ years ago, it was just a thought. They stepped up. Just like Senator Byrd.

Since PA and OH failed to do that for an existing train (let alone a new train), you really don't have an argument.

Therefore, blame your state senators and in the meantime, remember:




Concentrate on the future...not on the past.


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## Palmetto (May 7, 2016)

A perfectly rational synopsis of the state of affairs in this thread.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (May 7, 2016)

It really didn't matter what my senators thought or said because the FREAKING BOSS WON. Congress obviously couldn't afford both or it would have. So when it came to a vote, are you going to side with the Senate Majority Leader or anyone else? He had priority over everyone else and it was WRONG.

Byrd is the reason the Broadway was killed, plain and simple. I have to repeat it 1800 times because you didn't listen the first 1799. And in 1982, Congress could've saved any of the other canceled trains (Floridian, National Limited, Lone Star). Any of those trains would've been more useful than the Cardinal. The PM/TM numbers proved it. To this day, the Cardinal either has the worst or second to worst PM/TM of all LD trains and makes the least revenue of any of them. What did Congress do and WHY? If the other senators said "sure Robert" then we need a better system where trains are determined by ridership and revenue and not who's in charge of the Senate. I'll start campaigning Congress when civilians get to vote for who the Senate Majority leader is.

Killing this train once and for all may not bring back my train but if it means more coach cars/sleepers on the LSL and the Florida trains it will be a better investment. Or maybe the Silver Star can at least get a diner lite (as if you guys haven't been complaining about that as long as I have about this). Or maybe give the taxpayers back the money they stole from us to fund a train 95% of America will never ride. Other than state supported trains, the most number of stops in PA that any train makes is two (and one of those two stops on that train is Connelsville). Harrisburg and Lancaster only have state supported trains. West Virginia gets how many stops on the Cardinal and what does the state of West Virginia spend? We're all paying federal taxes on it. You and I shouldn't have to spend as much money on this train as people from West Virginia do. You may be paying to fund the Keystone and Pennsylvanian but I guarantee Pennsylvanians are paying more. If Pennsylvania has to pay more to get a direct train to Chicago, West Virginia should as well. That's fair.

The system is broken and we need to fix it. If you don't agree, you must live in West Virginia. And the solution isn't just we pay more taxes to Congress (if Congress raises Amtrak's budget, where do you think that money's coming from?). They'll just add trains in other rinky dink states nobody lives and nobody wants to go to. Notice the few high speed rail proposals out there almost none have the Cardinal route going high speed except for the important part of it, Chicago to Cincinnati. Because most people outside of West Virginia realize not many people live there and more people live in other places. The Amtrak model from the 70's doesn't work in 2016. You can't get a one seat ride daily from Chicago to Philadelphia, Baltimore, Houston, anywhere in New Jersey, anywhere in Florida, and (for now) Boston. But Chicagoans can visit Willston, North Dakota every day of the week! A new model is needed.

I can make my point without large photos insulting people. You should try it some time. And if you really want me to stop complaining, GIVE ME MY DAMN TRAIN BACK!


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## A Voice (May 7, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> The system is broken and we need to fix it. If you don't agree, you must live in West Virginia


I actually live in Tennessee, thank you very much, and I fully support the Cardinal because I understand its importance to the national system as a whole, in addition to the utility provided to West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana. Once again, pitting one train against another accomplishes nothing, and in fact actually works against the cause of greater passenger rail in this country (" trains for me but none for thee" is not a viable position).



> The PM/TM numbers proved it. To this day, the Cardinal either has the worst or second to worst PM/TM of all LD trains and makes the least revenue of any of them.


There is _always_ going to be a worst train, that _should_ be obvious. Somewhere Wal-Mart has a worst performing store, and somewhere Honda has a worst dealership.Both may be well profitable, but somebody, somewhere has to come in last. Doesn't mean they are a poor performer and should be shut down, however. Discontinue the Cardinal and another train will be worst.


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## Eric S (May 7, 2016)

Congress can afford to pay for as many or as few trains as it so chooses. As long as Amtrak is federally-supported, Congress will have an influence on what runs and what is funded. An influential/powerful member of Congress made sure a certain train survived. No one made an effective effort to save the other train. Had that other train had a similarly effective "patron" it is entirely possible it would have been saved as well.

Seems that any (understandable) frustration should be directed at those ineffective members of Congress, not the particular effective one. Or, better yet, direct that frustration into efforts to get one's current elected representatives (state and federal) to support increased rail service.

Or just complain about one person and one train in nearly every thread here.


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## jis (May 7, 2016)

It should be pointed out that the Cardinal is not the only train that survived due to the action of influential legislators. Another one that immediately comes to mind is the Texas Eagle and Kay Bailey Hutchinson. It went from tri-weekly to daily, and for a brief period even a fourth frequency got added between SAS and LAX.

To claim that legislators should not work towards supporting and saving trains that affect their constituents displays a ludicrous lack of understanding of how representative democracy is supposed to work. If you cannot get your representative to represent your position forcefully that ultimately is your misfortune. It is not the fault of the more effective legislators pushing causes of constituents in other places, and succeeding.

We need to focus on the positive and work towards building things instead of coming up with selfish schemes to bring others down.

It should be noted that Cardinal was restored using a special grant and specific language in legislation. Some one from Pennsylvania, if they cared could have done the same for the Broadway, but they didn't, and what is worse, when Amtrak asked for a pittance to fund through cars, no one in PA cared. Ultimately Amtrak added them anyway, and eventually restored service in the form of Three Rivers. As usual only sound of Crickets from PA mostly.

But really, let us stop navel gazing about what happened in the past and look to the future. Fortunately PA has a better government now and we are on the threshold of getting a second Pennsylvanian frequency. So let us focus on that. Eventually some through service to Chicago will come too if we work positively towards it instead of endlessly moaning about the Cardinal. You just lose support for your train when you try to bring someone else's train down. It is all politics at the end of the day irrespective of whether it is in the government's or private company's boardroom.



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I can make my point without large photos insulting people. You should try it some time. And if you really want me to stop complaining, GIVE ME MY DAMN TRAIN BACK!


Now if that is not a little brat throwing a tantrum, I don't know what else is. Waaaahhh! Waaaaah! Waaaaah!  

Do you really believe anyone on AU can give your train back if you complain enough here? If so, that also shows another profound disconnect from reality. Are you always into pointless bitching in places that can do nothing about addressing your issue?

BTW, even now we cannot seem to get unequivocal support from anyone in Pennsylvania for the through cars or any other west of Pittsburgh service. Everyone in Pennsylvania appears to think that is exclusively Ohio's problem. So go figure! I'd say your time would be spent more productively if you became active among the PA activists and started getting a focus group together in PA that will work with its legislators both at state and federal level to push for west of PA service. It is important for the likes of you to get your own house in order instead of spending your energy chucking bricks at others.


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## Eric S (May 7, 2016)

^THIS!!!


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## AmtrakBlue (May 7, 2016)

Well said, Jis.


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## Ryan (May 7, 2016)

This may be crazy talk, but can we talk about the Cardinal and its future here, and you can start yet another thread complaining about you beloved train? That be great, and these derails are getting tiresome.


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## jis (May 7, 2016)

It is now becoming highly likely that NARP will spearhead a grassroots driven project (Virginia, West Virginia and Kentucky are very interested, and many other state ARPs will support the effort) to make the Cardinal daily. It will operate somewhat similar to the way the Gulf Coast Project has evolved. So keep your eyes open for if and when the project gets launched.

If you are a member of NARP and support the Cardinal going daily, please feel free to drop a line to NARP voicing your opinion on the matter. If you live in any state on the route of the Cardinal please engage with your local rail advocacy group and with the legislators that you can get hold of and voice your opinion of support.

Should there be any track downgrades, this will also be the rallying activity to deal with that eventuality.


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## andersone (May 7, 2016)

If we are lucky in Ohio at least Ted Strickland will return to dc in the Senate' he started the 3C grant later killed bt Kasich. I talked with him when he was in the House and he supported rail and the Cardinal - he lives in Portsmouth. One more voice in the Senate can't hurt


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## Carolina Special (May 7, 2016)

Here in Charlottesville, Amtrak is evidently now requiring an expansion of the local train station as a precondition for a second daily NER. A private developer took over most of the original station and turned it into a restaurant. The current station is in the old baggage area and doesn't have enough waiting space for passengers when there is bad weather. Local officials are lobbying for federal dollars to get something done.

I expect that the expanded station may also be a stated requirement for a daily Cardinal as well.


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## Triley (May 7, 2016)

Carolina Special said:


> Here in Charlottesville, Amtrak is evidently now requiring an expansion of the local train station as a precondition for a second daily NER. A private developer took over most of the original station and turned it into a restaurant. The current station is in the old baggage area and doesn't have enough waiting space for passengers when there is bad weather. Local officials are lobbying for federal dollars to get something done.
> 
> I expect that the expanded station may also be a stated requirement for a daily Cardinal as well.


I'd figure it'd be more for the Regional instead. 176 usually has a crazy number of people boarding at CVS. Around 100 ticketed passengers, plus all the monthly and 10-ticket riders.


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## Ryan (May 7, 2016)

Yeah, a larger station for going tri-weekly to daily doesn't make sense.


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## Railroad Bill (May 7, 2016)

andersone said:


> If we are lucky in Ohio at least Ted Strickland will return to dc in the Senate' he started the 3C grant later killed bt Kasich. I talked with him when he was in the House and he supported rail and the Cardinal - he lives in Portsmouth. One more voice in the Senate can't hurt


Strickland does seem to be gaining some momentum against Portman and this could be a major victory toward bringing some train activity to Ohio if he is elected. Just two more years of Kasich before term limits send him along. A new governor would also improve chances for some corridor trains.


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## jis (May 8, 2016)

^^**Like**


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## jfandre (May 8, 2016)

We just took the Cardinal from CHI to CVS. For a track that's about to be downgraded, CSX was doing a heck of a lot of tie replacements and signal upgrades.


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## WestBerkeleyFlats (May 8, 2016)

A Voice said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > The system is broken and we need to fix it. If you don't agree, you must live in West Virginia
> ...


Businesses such as Wal-Mart close their underperforming stores - http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2016/01/15/list-of-walmart-stores-closing/78852898/


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## AmtrakBlue (May 8, 2016)

WestBerkeleyFlats said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> ...


But there will still always be a worse performing store.


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## jis (May 8, 2016)

If you keep shutting down the worst performing store, ultimately there will be no store left.

Also Walmart stores are a very different thing from individual trains which together form a network supporting service on a group of trains. Blindly applying the rules of operations of one to the other shows a profound misunderstanding of what it takes to actually operate a specific business. Admittedly a lot of managers who have zero understanding of the business they manage do suffer from this problem and make horrible mistakes all the time, until someone notices and fires them.


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## west point (May 8, 2016)

To add to confusion the worse performer one year might not be the one next year. Might be a rising star.


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## WoodyinNYC (May 8, 2016)

west point said:


> To add to confusion the worse performer one year might not be the one next year.


In the study on restoring the _Pioneer_, using 2009 figures, the _Lake Shore Ltd_ and the _Silver Star_ were the two worst performing daily trains by Farebox Recovery. Today both rank in the top half.


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## Seaboard92 (May 9, 2016)

To add two your two LD stops in Pa none of us can help how railroads are routed. Or how population chooses to settle. Those lines were laid back in the 1800s and we have no control on that.


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## neroden (May 19, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> What did Congress do and WHY? If the other senators said "sure Robert" then we need a better system where trains are determined by ridership and revenue and not who's in charge of the Senate. I'll start campaigning Congress when civilians get to vote for who the Senate Majority leader is.


Well, if you've seen my writings regarding best practice in designing democratic (aka republican) systems of government, you'll know that the US Senate is an unmitigated disaster and should really be abolished entirely. When US experts are asked by foreign dignitaries what their advice is regarding constitutional reform, they say many things, but they all say "Do NOT have ANYTHING resembling the US Senate". I can list a catalog of the problems with it:

-- most importantly, it's malapportioned, and so essentially undemocratic

-- it's effectively gerrymandered by the state borders

-- it creates a dangerous veto point which can shut down the government, and encourage "lawless" action by the executive

-- it has ridiculous power over government office appointments, which has the same problem of destroying functioning government

-- it has similarly ridiculous power over treaties...

-- supermajority rules for impeachment mean a tiny minority can prevent impeachment of criminals in high governmental office, leading to ever-increasing governmental corruption

-- it's damn near impossible to amend the Constitution to fix it, because amendments need a supermajority in the Senate, so it'll probably require revolution to get rid of it

-- there is a second method to amend the Constitution, but the "convention to propose amendments" has been requested by most of the states and Congress refuses to call it, so...

-- and that's *before* we start looking at the Senate's internal rules, which are garbage

-- the filibuster has no constitutional basis and is used as a scheme for Senators to lie about their voting records, basically

I expect the US Senate to be one of the key factors which will cause the collapse of the US constitutional system. It was so once before in the leadup to the Civil War, after which the constitutional system was patched back together by strongarm force.

My proposed Constitutional amendment would read as follows:

Article. As of the date of ratification of this article, all the powers and duties of the US Senate are transferred to the House of Representatives. The US Senate shall retain no powers other than the power of debate and parlimentary privilege.

This is rather carefully constructed to evade the Constitutional prohibition on changing the composition of the Senate to make it democratic.


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## andersone (May 20, 2016)

Even paranoids have real enemies


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (May 20, 2016)

We still haven't heard official word about the downgrade of the line. For Cardinal fans, I guess no news is good news.


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## WoodyinNYC (May 20, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> We still haven't heard official word about the downgrade of the line. For Cardinal fans, I guess no news is good news.


You talking to me? 

Yes, thank you, here no news is good news.

I did like the proposal on the All Aboard Ohio site that you linked to the other day, for a new train to run Detroit-Toledo-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati-[Cardinal route Cincy-Ashland-Charleston-Charlottesville]-Richmond-Norfolk. A second frequency on that center portion of the _Cardinal route_ could provide a bit more revenue to keep it open and up to speed, while sharing Amtrak's costs. Well, we gotta keep dreaming about a growing Amtrak, or it will wither and die.


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## erierail (May 21, 2016)

Perhaps reroute the cardinal chi-ind-cin- cle- NYC. I slow train end to end but reconnects city pairs long forgotten. Direct access from upstate ny and north coast ( buffola/ Clevelan with cin and Indianapolis.

Just a thought a an issue with the old brodway is it missed major population centers west if Pittsburgh.


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## Seaboard92 (May 21, 2016)

Another reroute that would be good is to go via the old N&W main. So NYP-WAS-LYH-RKE-BLU(Bluefield)-WIL(Williamston)-HUN-CIN-IND-CHI. And jump back on the C&O at Huntington WV. It's a great line mostly double tracked, Superliner Clearance south of WAS. And some decent sized towns. But I would prefer the train stay on the old C&O instead


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## MisterUptempo (May 22, 2016)

WoodyinNYC said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > We still haven't heard official word about the downgrade of the line. For Cardinal fans, I guess no news is good news.
> ...


Just wanted to mention another potential problem for the Cardinal, as well as the proposed 3C route, Chicago-to-Columbus service, and Detroit-to-Cincy service. The story comes from the All Aboard Ohio website. I searched the thread and didn't see it mentioned here. If I am mistaken, I welcome the abuse. 

I am invoking Fair Use regarding the posting of the following paragraphs-



> *One-fourth of 3C may be downgraded*kjprendergast on April 13, 2016
> 
> All Aboard Ohio has learned from multiple sources that CSX may downgrade its 60-mile Galion-Columbus section (called the Columbus Line Subdivision) of the Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati (3C) Corridor as early as this year. This represents nearly one-fourth of the total route-miles of the overall, 255-mile 3C Corridor.
> 
> ...


(emphasis added)

To read the entire article, the link is as follows:

http://allaboardohio.org/2016/04/13/one-fourth-of-3c-may-be-downgraded/


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## Palmetto (May 22, 2016)

And from the document linked above, here's the problem:

http://In the state’s $400 million, 79 mph 3C Quick Start plan that was derailed in 2010 by Gov.-Elect John Kasich, three stations were proposed to be located on the Columbus Line Sub:

There needs to be a change of opinion regarding passenger rail in the minds of Ohio's lawmakers. Until then, the state is going nowhere fast on establishing decent rail corridors in the state.


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