# Ohio Gov Kasich Calls Us A "Train Cult"



## Railroad Bill (Dec 2, 2010)

In a speech made at Newark, Ohio yesterday, Ohio's future governor John Kasich, said he and his newly appointed Director of Transportation will fight any efforts to build high speed rail in Ohio. "These people are a "snout in the trough" "This "Train Cult" has been around since I was young and we are not going to waste money on this project." :angry2:

So there you have it "fellow piggies" :giggle:

Our "Train Cult" has been discovered. I guess I will have to keep burning gasoline on I-71 to get to my train cult meetings at the CLE Amtrak station.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 2, 2010)

Well I can't type an honest response to that here. Wonder if they had special education when he went to school.


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## Ryan (Dec 2, 2010)

It's OK. I've called him much worse.


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## AlanB (Dec 2, 2010)

Of course the man is apparently too stupid to realize that he's just insulted members of his own party.

It was Republican James Seney who drew up the 3C rail plan. And Mr. Seney was appointed to the Ohio Rail Commission by a Republican Governor. Then that rail plan went to the Republican controlled Ohio State Senate where it was approved 33-0 by the Senate. Additionally, that same Senate voted to seek Federal funding for Mr. Seney's plan.

So the "cult" consists of some of the very same people he's going to have to work with in the legistlature for the next few years.


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## Ryan (Dec 2, 2010)

You're looking for logical consistency and intellectual honesty where there is none to be found.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 2, 2010)

Wow, I'm a cult member. That's pretty exciting. This guy makes Scott Walker look like a Rhodes Scholar. Good choice, Ohio!


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## Tracktwentynine (Dec 2, 2010)

Just stay away from the cool aid!


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## Railroad Bill (Dec 2, 2010)

1.75 million OHioans voted for Governor STrickland who wanted the rail system built. That's a really large cult that hopefully will remember next time.

I can hardly wait to see the other cuts Kasich is going to make by March 2011. I suspect a recall may be coming around the corner when the other 1.9 million get gouched.


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## dlagrua (Dec 2, 2010)

This is political bandstanding at its finest. At a time where there is a terrible economic deficicit at the state and local levels, politicans will look for an issue that appeals to the public outcry for cuts in government spending. They pick on rail travel as its an easy target never explaining that if all passenger rail travel in the USA stopped tomorrow you would hardly notice the reduction in the deficit.

If the spending would be cut on highway and airport spending then we would really see some savings. Over the past 10 years the federal transportation administration has spent TRILLIONS there and we know what Amtrak gets.

When you hear a speech like Kasich's, it needs to be challenged and in the case of passenger rail, it never is.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 2, 2010)

Pay the troll no mind, with any luck he'll be as useless and ineffective as Taft was. I'd rather have an ineffective leader than a paranoid self-deluded rat fink like Kaisich.


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## afigg (Dec 2, 2010)

I hope Kasich's public statements encourage LaHood and the FRA to redistribute most, if not all, of the $400 million from Ohio to the Chicago-Detroit, Chicago-St. Louis and other Chicago hub CREATE projects that benefit intercity passenger trains. Michigan asked for $308 million to acquire and upgrade for the Dearborn to Kalamazoo section to 110 mph speeds, but only got $150 million of their request in the FY10 HSIPR grants. If the ex-Ohio funds are spent in upgrades to the Chicago hub and improved services to other Mid-West cities, that will still benefit Ohio in the long run because, after the political climate in Ohio eventually changes, there will be a much improved Chicago hub and lines with busier passenger traffic to connect to in Indiana.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 2, 2010)

I would have a few choice words for him, but this a family board so I won't.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 2, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> This is political bandstanding at its finest.


Grandstanding maybe?



dlagrua said:


> When you hear a speech like Kasich's, it needs to be challenged and in the case of passenger rail, it never is.


Agreed. This anti-rail nonsense isn't based on any reasonable assumptions so far as I can tell. It's simply a ploy to appeal to the lazy and uneducated among us. Better to inform them of the truth than to let this slide and devolve even further into self-fulfilling conclusion.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 2, 2010)

I can feel the vultures like Mich. and NY starting to flock around Ohio's carcass. Back off guys, it's still ours for at least two more months!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 2, 2010)

Sent to the Canton Repository, currently they are vetting my quoting of Kasich:



> On Tuesday Governor-Elect John Kasich held a press conference to showcase his appointee to head ODOT. When asked about the Ohio 3C Corridor, a plan that would give passenger rail service to the citizens of Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati he said; “So there’s a train cult. ... Part of the feeling in favor of these things are contracts — engineering contracts, construction contracts, snout in the trough. … We’re not going to run some program that some train cult wants to support.”
> It has been abundantly clear from the start of the election that Kasich is anti-rail. What is made clear by this statement is that Kasich is in desperate need for a history lesson.
> 
> James Seney was appointed to the Ohio Rail Comission by then Republican Governor Bob Taft. Seney, in his six-year tenure as Executive Director spent much time and effort into designing the 3C plan. The plan was put to the Republican controlled Ohio State Senate and passed 33-0, at that time not a single State Senator (Republican, Democrat or otherwise) opposed the 3C project. That was the same senate that decided to seek funding from the USDOT for the project in a separate vote.
> ...


I thank you Alan for providing me with some information that would beef up the substance of the letter. My ridership figure is based on the 2009 Amtrak Feasibility Report that was received by the ORDC in Sept. of 2009.


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## saxman (Dec 2, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Sent to the Canton Repository, currently they are vetting my quoting of Kasich:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well written letter man. I hope it gets published!


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## Trogdor (Dec 2, 2010)

Get your numbers right. You wrote $400 billion. It should be $400 million.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 2, 2010)

Will do, that might help 

If they decide to publish it they'll call me (as they always do) to ask if I want to make any changes.

They know me well down on 500 Market Ave. :lol:


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## TransitGeek (Dec 2, 2010)

Ooh, I always wanted to be part of a cult. Will there be a blood sacrifice of an automobile on an altar built out of railroad ties?


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 2, 2010)

TransitGeek said:


> Ooh, I always wanted to be part of a cult. Will there be a blood sacrifice of an automobile on an altar built out of railroad ties?


*Chuckles out loud*

I'm almost tempted to stage such a thing just to draw upon the lunacy of this situation. :lol:


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## AKA (Dec 2, 2010)

TransitGeek said:


> Ooh, I always wanted to be part of a cult. Will there be a blood sacrifice of an automobile on an altar built out of railroad ties?



We can only hope. h34r:


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## Eric S (Dec 2, 2010)

MikefromCrete said:


> Wow, I'm a cult member. That's pretty exciting. This guy makes Scott Walker look like a Rhodes Scholar. Good choice, Ohio!


What have Rhodes Scholars done to make you dislike them so much?


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## Eric S (Dec 2, 2010)

afigg said:


> I hope Kasich's public statements encourage LaHood and the FRA to redistribute most, if not all, of the $400 million from Ohio to the Chicago-Detroit, Chicago-St. Louis and other Chicago hub CREATE projects that benefit intercity passenger trains. Michigan asked for $308 million to acquire and upgrade for the Dearborn to Kalamazoo section to 110 mph speeds, but only got $150 million of their request in the FY10 HSIPR grants. If the ex-Ohio funds are spent in upgrades to the Chicago hub and improved services to other Mid-West cities, that will still benefit Ohio in the long run because, after the political climate in Ohio eventually changes, there will be a much improved Chicago hub and lines with busier passenger traffic to connect to in Indiana.


I couldn't agree more. Same for the $800+ million from Wisconsin.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 2, 2010)

I would agree, I'd rather have other states benefit than compromise with Kasich on this.

Still 40 some days though.


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## spot1181 (Dec 2, 2010)

Right now, it's embarressing to live in Ohio. I guess Kasich is against rail since he can't outsource these jobs to China.


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## the_traveler (Dec 2, 2010)

Is he going to join John McCain to say that "... Amtrak doesn't serve my state ..."?


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## PaulM (Dec 2, 2010)

Eric S said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, I'm a cult member. That's pretty exciting. This guy makes Scott Walker look like a Rhodes Scholar. Good choice, Ohio!
> ...


I wouldn't want to put words in Mike's mouth, but I think he is using Rhodes Scholar as a metaphor for intelligent. He's just saying Walker looks intelligent compared to Kaisich.


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## oldtimer (Dec 2, 2010)

PaulM said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


All this time I thought that it was "roads scholar" a person that studied highway maps!!!


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 2, 2010)

If we're a cult we need a symbol. Anyone got any ideas?


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## Eric S (Dec 2, 2010)

PaulM said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


Oh, I agree, that's what I figured he meant too. (Sarcasm isn't always easy to convey electronically.)


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## jis (Dec 3, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> If we're a cult we need a symbol. Anyone got any ideas?


I am sure Kasich would grock this one:






:giggle:


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 3, 2010)

Eric S said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > Eric S said:
> ...


Thanks for figuring out what I meant to say, PaulM. It was sarcasm. I don't think I've ever actually met a Rhodes Scholar, but they're supposed to be smart. Ohio's governor-elect sure isn't one of them, especially given the fact that many of his fellow Republicans were backers of the Three-C project


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## PaulM (Dec 3, 2010)

Eric S said:


> Oh, I agree, that's what I figured he meant too. (Sarcasm isn't always easy to convey electronically.)


Now that I get it, it seems pretty clever.


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## jis (Dec 3, 2010)

What Kasich is implicitly depending on is that it takes one cult member to detect another. Unfortunately sometimes cult members think anyone that disagrees with them is a member of another cult. Since there is questionable logical foundation for their own belief system they cannot understand that someone else might be different in that respect  And thus the name calling and ad-hominem attacks begin. Mind you I would be the last person to imply that he is actually a member of any cult. All that I am suggesting is that he has probably run out of rational arguments and hence has to start using other well known techniques of argument - like calling an adversary a heathen etc.


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## daveyb99 (Dec 3, 2010)

Railroad Bill said:


> In a speech made at Newark, Ohio yesterday, Ohio's future governor John Kasich, said he and his newly appointed Director of Transportation will fight any efforts to build high speed rail in Ohio.


GREAT NEWS !!!!

I hope President Obama terminates ALL FUNDING AND SERVICE to those states who do not want it.

Would not want to force anything on ya, I mean, there is that peskey 10th amendment we need to follow.

Shift the funding and service to those who appreciate it.


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## AlanB (Dec 3, 2010)

jis said:


> All that I am suggesting is that he has probably run out of rational arguments and hence has to start using other well known techniques of argument - like calling an adversary a heathen etc.


He never had a rational argument to begin with.

He just saw what the Gov Elect for Wisconsin was doing and how much publicity he was getting for it, and decided that this would be his cause too, so that he could get elected. I'm quite certain that he never even knew that this was a Republican plan to begin with, unlike Wisconsin's plans which have at their root Tommy Thompson but AFAIK the plan wasn't actually written by Republicans, much less approved by the state Senate.


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## BigRedEO (Dec 3, 2010)

Unfortunately, I'm not finding any info online about how to contact Kasich. I loved how he said once during the campaign that he hasn't met a single person who would take the 3C train. I'm wondering if he REALLY asked that question of every single person he met during the campaign? DOUBTFUL. I want to contact him and let him know that I am one of MANY who want the 3C train and would ride it regularly!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 3, 2010)

The letter in this thread will be put out, they like it so it is probably going to be in the Sunday edition-- the most widely circulated.

The letters are always posted to Cantonrep.com, when I have a link I will supply it-- discussion usually happens. If there is enough interest they will sometimes do a follow-up Op-Ed column the next week.


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## volkris (Dec 3, 2010)

You guys should take this more seriously than you are because this is how you're perceived by the general public!

You want more funding for rail? Well, Congress and the general public aren't going to vote tons of money toward paying for the whims of a cult.

Can't you take a step back and think about how Joe Q. Public might react to the topics brought up on this board? Amtrackers expressing sorrow that people dieing on tracks are disrupting their precious train rides? Outrage over Amtrak trying to save a few tax dollars in ways that will make things slightly less cushy for frequent riders? The general disgust leveled at people who occasionally take to the air just because they'll save a few days of travel?

You guys absolutely present yourselves as cooks and as a cult worshipping trains, and that's not doing your cause any favors.

Kasich has it right, and the sooner you accept it, learn from it, and change your attitudes, the sooner you will get what you want.


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## PaulM (Dec 3, 2010)

volkris said:


> You guys absolutely present yourselves as cooks and as a cult worshipping trains, and that's not doing your cause any favors.


There is a big difference between a hobby or interest and a cult. I wouldn't know about "cooks".


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 4, 2010)

Excuse us?


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## the_traveler (Dec 4, 2010)

volkris said:


> You want more funding for rail? Well, Congress and the general public aren't going to vote tons of money toward paying for the whims of a cult.


Maybe (as you say) we are a "cult", but I'm almost sure you or someone in your family drives on the roads. Thus you are part of the "automobile cult"!



And (as you said above) Congress and the general public should not vote "tons of money" for the whims of the "automobile cult"!





Oh, and by the way, with your belonging to AU and with 322 posts, aren't you part of this "cult" also?


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## jis (Dec 4, 2010)

volkris said:


> You guys should take this more seriously than you are because this is how you're perceived by the general public!
> 
> .... [snippage of some drivel ....]
> 
> ...


Considering that Chrisitianity originated as a small "cult" of "cooks" within the Jewish realm, that spent most of their time hiding in caves by the Dead Sea and stuck to their beliefs to plant the seeds of what it has grown to today (and I don't mean just the far right types, but also the liberal Christians who far outnumber the far right in the whole world today), I don't see your rationale for us to be worried or our need to change, as very well thought out or supported by history. I think we are all in good company  Being part of a larger herd of sheep never produced any useful disruptive change or sowed the seeds for progress. It is small "cults" that cause such. Think the founding fathers of the USA. Think Mahatma Gandhi in India. Of course "cults" also have a large failure rate, but so do large herds of sheep ...er... Empires. 'Tis the nature of the beast, so why worry about that? Best foot forward and then que sera sera!

So if you are getting a distinct impression that some of us are going to ignore your advice, and we will most likely all outlast Kasich's political career, and most likely thrive doing so, you would be sort of on the right track


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## spot1181 (Dec 4, 2010)

My wife is a great cook.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 4, 2010)

Interestingly enough there was a letter printed last week around the same time.

http://www.cantonrep.com/opinion/letters/x1966824542/Kasich-should-reverse-course-on-plans-for-high-speed-rail


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## Kurn (Dec 4, 2010)

volkris said:


> You guys should take this more seriously than you are because this is how you're perceived by the general public!
> 
> You want more funding for rail? Well, Congress and the general public aren't going to vote tons of money toward paying for the whims of a cult.
> 
> ...


And exactly WHY are you on this forum?


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## guest (Dec 5, 2010)

BigRedEO said:


> Unfortunately, I'm not finding any info online about how to contact Kasich. I loved how he said once during the campaign that he hasn't met a single person who would take the 3C train. I'm wondering if he REALLY asked that question of every single person he met during the campaign? DOUBTFUL. I want to contact him and let him know that I am one of MANY who want the 3C train and would ride it regularly!


Since the Governor-elect is not making his work address apparent, write to him at his home:

KASICH JOHN R

7825 LANETTA LN

WESTERVILLE, OH 43082 USA


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 5, 2010)

Send him Amtrak post cards


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## the_traveler (Dec 5, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Send him Amtrak post cards


... with either the CLE or CIN stations on it!


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## volkris (Dec 6, 2010)

Kurn said:


> volkris said:
> 
> 
> > You guys should take this more seriously than you are because this is how you're perceived by the general public!
> ...


That's a good question, one that I imagine lots ask and that I try to lay out from time to time.

I'm here for the same reason lots of you are: I'm interested in trains, think they should be expanded to more of the country, think they could play a larger part in American life, and--heck--I'm interested in railfans too.

So many of you are saddened by lack of funding for rail and the fits and starts of expansion... well, I'm saddened by the ways fans and supporters of rail often shoot themselves in the foot unknowingly, helping cuts to happen!

As with any community, the choir preaching that goes on here can often lead to attitudes that actually harm the cause when it's taken to society. You guys don't seem to realize how you're perceived outside of these forums and other close-knit groups. You don't seem to realize that you're throwing away potential supporters and political capital that could see our dreams of rail realized.

So embrace the cult-like perception if you want. Have fun being seen as a group of selfish hobbiests demanding tax dollars to build your toys. Go ahead with your relentless attacks on driving and air travel as if on religious crusade.

Just realize that you're biting the hand that feeds you, and don't expect an outpouring of generosity from the nation's coffers in return.

Most importantly, be sure to shoot this messenger.


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## the_traveler (Dec 6, 2010)

volkris said:


> Kurn said:
> 
> 
> > volkris said:
> ...


Then you're part of the "*train cult*"!


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## TransitGeek (Dec 6, 2010)

I am most *CERTAINLY* not a cook. I've burned water.


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## j653 (Dec 7, 2010)

Call me different, but I am actually happy that some crazy Republican governors are trying to turn down federal funding. It means my state -- a state which would actually be happy to receive federal money -- might get a second chance.

So Ohio ... please turn down the money. Send it to states that would be happy to put the unemployed back to work while building out our infrastructure.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 7, 2010)

http://www.cantonrep.com/opinion/letters/x1817615744/Kasich-needs-lesson-in-history-of-high-speed-rail-service

The letter was posted today, online discussion is starting to brew. Feel free to give some people the real facts and figures.


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## Pastor Dave (Dec 7, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> http://www.cantonrep.com/opinion/letters/x1817615744/Kasich-needs-lesson-in-history-of-high-speed-rail-service
> 
> The letter was posted today, online discussion is starting to brew. Feel free to give some people the real facts and figures.


A great letter.


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## Big Iron (Dec 7, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> http://www.cantonrep.com/opinion/letters/x1817615744/Kasich-needs-lesson-in-history-of-high-speed-rail-service
> 
> The letter was posted today, online discussion is starting to brew. Feel free to give some people the real facts and figures.


Nicely done, keep beating the drum, sqeaking the wheel. I'll keep coming back to the link to see the comments that are posted.

The one argument against rail/HSR that I'm having difficulty countering with the opponents I run across is.......Amtrak serves just a small percentage of the population, high speed rail an even smaller percentage.

I have a few counters to this but would like some more ammo from AU members. Any help??


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## Ryan (Dec 7, 2010)

You chumps going to leave me hanging in the comments section there?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 7, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.cantonrep.com/opinion/letters/x1817615744/Kasich-needs-lesson-in-history-of-high-speed-rail-service
> ...


Based on the population of Ohio the 3C service will hit between four and six percent of Ohioans, and additional plans are in the works to expand it to cities beyond the three Cs, including Delaware, OH and Akron OH, basically college towns. There are Twenty five cities listed on the 2009 feasibility study that could have 3C service by 2020.

None of these locations have Amtrak service.

Another good argument is that it may only be 5% of Ohioans, but it is more like 15% of those living in the areas actually served by the 3C, which basically follows I-71, that's a lot of cars that don't have to be on the road, reducing times for everybody and long term cost of maintaining the highway system.


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## Big Iron (Dec 7, 2010)

Ryan said:


> You chumps going to leave me hanging in the comments section there?


That's why I'm asking for help on the population numbers argument. I want to respond to "JimHardy1234" comment about the projected ridership of the 3C only serving 4.1% of Ohio's population.

The guy that responded to your post is the Chump.

BTW, it is this type of encouragement from Ryan to step up and comment that could just help change some minds.


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## Ryan (Dec 7, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> BTW, it is this type of encouragement from Ryan to step up and comment that could just help change some minds.


Indeed, and I was joking about the "chumps" part. I do see things like this as an opportunity to change some minds. Doubt that JimHandy (or anyone else commenting on "the other side") will come back and say "gee, you're right", but who knows how many people will read without commenting? Let's give them some solid facts and something worth remembering.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 7, 2010)

The mind that needs to be changed is that or Kaisich. I have an inside source that told me he would read this letter and has read it. He is actively trying t gauge the political climate in Ohio before he assumes office.

I'm order to change his mind there needs to be conclusive evidence that the 3C corridor is a popular opinion, a non-partisan issue.

Enough letters and discussions like this one will hopefully shift a little media attention to the issue.

The bottom line to all fiscal conservatives who oppose this project is that this money will be spent no matter what Kasich does, the money will be spent so why not send it on a project that USDOT determined was worth the money.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 7, 2010)

Those of you reading the story I humbly ask you consider sharing this letter on Facebook. There is a button under the title line above the letter body that is the Facebook logo, and it will allow you to like and share and comment on Facebook.

The easiest way to spin a small yarn into a bigger story is to use social media.


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## Ryan (Dec 7, 2010)

Done.

They must have the slowest commenting system ever, I posted a comment an hour ago and it hasn't shown up.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 7, 2010)

It's up now.


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## The Chief (Dec 7, 2010)

*S*o I posted a comment to the _Canton Suppository_, er, _Repository_, online edition to Micah Miller's letter to the editor "Kasich needs lesson in history of high-speed rail service." Is *ALC_Rail_Writer* Micah? If yes, I gave you some props.

I registered as *JohnNY_The_Chief*. Catchy, huh?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 7, 2010)

That would be me, I prefer 'M', as my real-life friends and family call me. But that's a discussion for another thread.


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## the_traveler (Dec 7, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I prefer 'M', as my real-life friends and family call me.


Is "M" for your first name or last name?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 8, 2010)

Or the middle one...


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## the_traveler (Dec 8, 2010)

No, I know the middle letter of "A*L*C" is "L"! I'm not *THAT* stupid!





Maybe it's a double "A" without the lines!


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## Ryan (Dec 8, 2010)

Wow, lots of good facts, heavy on the supporting data in the comments section over there - it seems an already excellent and persuasive letter and really boosted the power of it.

Well done!


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## BigRedEO (Dec 8, 2010)

The main Cleveland newspaper, The Plain Dealer, runs a column called "Politifact". Today, they nailed Kasich with some of his false claims, but I wish they'd also talked about how the money IS going to also affect the infrastructure for freight trains as well. Here's the link -

http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2010/dec/08/john-kasich/ohio-gov-elect-john-kasich-rejects-passenger-train/


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 8, 2010)

This is going great and going strong, nearly 24 reccomendations on Facebook and over 50 comments, keep going and the Rep may pick this up for a story in its "Ohio" section.

Dax, you're oddly quiet.


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## afigg (Dec 8, 2010)

Came across this on the NARP website. Gov. Strickland sent a 6 page letter to Gov. Elect Kasich arguing that he should save the 3C corridor project. letter was hand delivered according to the intro. The letter can be found at http://www.governor.ohio.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=wzqMm3Q3CwU%3d&tabid=1820.

Kasich may have locked himself into a political position where he has to cancel the 3C to save face and it is pretty clear that Kasich is not a fan of train travel, but the 3C supporters are not going to let him kill the project quietly.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 8, 2010)

It is going to have to be the first decision of the administration, if he decides to cancel it... It won't go quietly. If he supports it, he can claim that he brought jobs in Ohio. I doubt he'd get much flack for backtracking on this one.

And it s good to show lame duck Strickland still fighting the good fight.


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## the_traveler (Dec 8, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Dax, you're oddly quiet.


Maybe he decided that he doesn't want to be known as belonging to a "*cult*"!


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## Ryan (Dec 8, 2010)

I thought that odd as well. This is the kind of advocacy that I would think he'd be cheering full throatedly.

In fact, things like this can be a powerful way of using this site - even if not to write the articles and get them posted, to just roam the net looking for newspaper stories about rail issues and in a coordinated way work the comments section to present the facts in a rational manner.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 8, 2010)

I am going to wait a little bit before I print this out. Currently it is over 24 pages long. I will send one copy to Strickland, one copy to Kasich, and one to the editor at the Rep with the note "This would make a good story for B-1, don't you think?"


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## Big Iron (Dec 8, 2010)

Ryan said:


> I thought that odd as well. This is the kind of advocacy that I would think he'd be cheering full throatedly.
> 
> In fact, things like this can be a powerful way of using this site - even if not to write the articles and get them posted, to just roam the net looking for newspaper stories about rail issues and in a coordinated way work the comments section to present the facts in a rational manner.



i have a google alert set for Amtrak and get e-mails daily. Generlly, about every two-three weeks, there is a link to an op/ed piece or letter to the editor concerning amtrak. That would be one way to lurk the web for opportunities to comment.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 8, 2010)

I gather I didn't set off your alert?


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## Big Iron (Dec 8, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I gather I didn't set off your alert?


Your letter didn't have the word Amtrak in it so it didn't set of the alert. You were my alert on this one from reading your post.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 8, 2010)

Anybody here posting under the name "ahblid" ?


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## saxman (Dec 8, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Anybody here posting under the name "ahblid" ?


That would be AlanB I believe.  I hope he doesn't mind me reveilling his identity.


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## Railroad Bill (Dec 8, 2010)

There was an editorial comment in our local paper today from the Dayton paper quoting a source that the estimated cost of the 3C train to the Ohio budget would be equivalent to what ODOT spends on highway trash pickup each year.

Since my fellow Lions Club members pick up trash along our local state highway corridor four times each year, perhaps we can help stimulate positive vibes for the railroad :giggle:

_" Dayton Daily News" "The main component to the opposition of the 3C rail project is the estimated 17 million dollar operating cost not covered by ticket revenue. This is roughly what the state transportation department spends on picking up trash and cutting grass in a year. Its a teensy percentage of the nearly $2.8 billion a year the state spends on roads and bridges. For such a big project to fail over such a small amount of money would be absurd". _


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 8, 2010)

saxman said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody here posting under the name "ahblid" ?
> ...


I thought he was, but I figured Alan would just use AlanB.


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## AlanB (Dec 9, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Far too many times that name has already been taken, although I'm am registered as AlanB at some sites. But most of the time I use ahblid; a concatenation of my initials AHB and my nickname for my wife, Lydia.

No worries Chris!


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## the_traveler (Dec 9, 2010)

AlanB said:


> my initials AHB


And the "H" stands for "Helping", right?


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## transit54 (Dec 9, 2010)

The Vermont congressional delegation has sent a letter asking that some of the OH and WI be redistributed to extend the Ethan Allen to Burlington:

http://www.railvermont.org/documents/WesternCorridorJt%20DelLetterHSIPR20101202.pdf

While I sincerely hope both projects go through (as we did get funding for another project in the first round of grants), if things fall through in OH and WI it would be a bittersweet victory for us here in VT.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 9, 2010)

Anybody commenting on the story will note that today changes went into effect, in order to register you must update your personal information. This is to prevent flames, it will not be shared with other users.

A variety of comments on the subject matter, many people will help the chances of the Rep accepting my request for formal coverage of this story. Even just a quick "Good letter" or "Interesting issue, thanks for the information" would be invaluable.

It only takes a few minutes of your time, but together may help bring more local attention to the issue.


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## DET63 (Dec 9, 2010)

daxomni said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > This is political bandstanding at its finest.
> ...








Bandstanding. Maybe they were in "training." Or not.


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## BigRedEO (Dec 9, 2010)

Ohio and Wisconsin are having their funds pulled and distributed to other states that WANT high-speed rail.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/nyregion/10health.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

I am so very upset at the voters in my state right now.


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## MrFSS (Dec 9, 2010)

BigRedEO said:


> Ohio and Wisconsin are having their funds pulled and distributed to other states that WANT high-speed rail.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.c...ner=rss&emc=rss
> 
> I am so very upset at the voters in my state right now.


Already being discussed *HERE*.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 9, 2010)

For what it's worth LaHood can't pull the money until the program is cancelled from the state. Until Jan 13th or until Strickland cancels it, the program is still running, as it has been since the funding was granted.

If it's worth anything-- the Rep may do a full story on this. My friend who is a reporter hand delivered 27 pages of commentary written on that letter to the editor. The editor asked for my contact information "as a formality".


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 9, 2010)

The Rep still has a story, only now instead of being about rail, it will be how Kaisich was such a dumb ******* that he cost Ohio money, improvements, jobs, services, $400 million worth, _before he even assumed office_.


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## Big Iron (Dec 9, 2010)

DET63 said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> > dlagrua said:
> ...


This is grassroots lobbying at its finest. The modern day version of storming the Bastille with pitchforks.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 9, 2010)

I know that I feel like storming a certain Ohioans house in Layfayette with torch and pitchfork in hand...


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## Big Iron (Dec 9, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I know that I feel like storming a certain Ohioans house in Layfayette with torch and pitchfork in hand...



LOL. Just got back over here from your letter comment section, Alan is over there kicking azz and taking names.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 9, 2010)

I am too--

-Watari


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## Big Iron (Dec 9, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I am too--
> 
> -Watari


Yes you are!! I was wondering who Watari was, sounded intelligent.


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## Pastor Dave (Dec 9, 2010)

AlanB said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > saxman said:
> ...


"Concatenation" is an awfully big word. I had to look it up in the dictionary :blink: That took time away from my otherwise busy day of doing whatever it is that I do :lol: That being said, this is a really interesting thread. The political gymnastics surrounding HSR and railroad funding in general should keep us busy for a while. If it doesn't, I will post a thread on the "escatological significance of the Christ event as it pertains to long distance rail travel and the penthouse suites on sleeping cars as controlled by the_traveler."


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 9, 2010)

Well he wants a cult, he'll get one. Blind followers who will annoy the hell out of him for four years. Those on this board who know me, know I send post cards from my Amtrak trips-- I am officially adding John Kaisich to my list.

"Wish you were here, but you can't get from Ohio by rail. Yours, M."


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## Peregrine (Dec 10, 2010)

I was disappointed to see North Carolina is not getting much of this money - but California and Florida are cashing in big time. Maybe a few more governors will turn down the cash and we can get our high speed rail going even more.

"According to an Associated Press report, states gaining the most money include California, $624 million; Florida, $342 million; Washington, $161 million; and Illinois, $42 million. Other states receiving lesser amounts include New York, Maine, Massachusetts, Oregon, North Carolina, Iowa, Vermont and Indiana."


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## BigRedEO (Dec 10, 2010)

Strickland posted an editorial in the Cleveland Plain Dealer (that will hopefully be in all major Ohio newspapers). It unfortunately seems to be too little too late, but it is generating LOTS of comments - including my own! I have the same username there!

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/12/ohios_outgoing_governor_defend.html


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 10, 2010)

A great piece, but I doubt it does any good. It's too late-- but will certainly add this to my portfolio.

My letter to the editor has in the hands of the Plain Dealer and Akron Beacon Journal, and I have been able to confirm with an inside sourse that Gov-Elect Kasich was given 27 pages worth of commentary that Alan and I wrote online.

It has been picked up for a follow-up story in the Canton Repository.


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## Ryan (Dec 10, 2010)

Darn, I would have mentioned that I thought Kasich was a jackhole if I knew that he was going to be reading it. 

Make sure you post the link when the follow-up story is posted?


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## Kurn (Dec 10, 2010)

Kasich(R-Fox News) released a statement today saying it was "tragic" that the funds would be "wasted elsewhere". In other words,rail projects.He's not gonna change his mind.And it seems that the readers of the Akron Beacon Journal generally agree,having been spoon fed Repub talking points about this.They're spouting the usual-nobody rides trains,waste of taxpayers money,I won't ride trains so you shouldn't either,etc.

He's going to bring Ohio right into the 18th century.


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## the_traveler (Dec 10, 2010)

Might as well start rerouting the LSL thru Canada and Detroit. Erie would lose service, but once the CL is rerouted thru Erie and thru Canada, it will have service. And reroute the Cardinal thru Kentucky.

It's certainly clear that he thinks "nobody rides trains" (at least in Ohio), so why should Amtrak "waste money" by running empty trains thru Ohio?


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## monorailfan (Dec 10, 2010)

I'll go against the grain here and fully support what Ohio did. I think that in future years Ohio and other states who turn this down will be much better for it.

I count us lucky to have any type of rail system at all.

The major financial institutions and corporations in this country are insolvent - they are only operating due to accounting changes, and that will only work until cash-flow doesn't support that game. The tax base is eroding and interest on the debt is increasing more and more tax revenues. Most people know that major pain is ahead for this county but no one wants to see their special-interests cut.

Cuts to high-speed rail are trivial and insignificant to the cuts that are coming - you can't change the math or the outcome. And when the major cuts do come, such as Social Security, Medicare, Foodstamps, etc., only the folks on this board are going to care about cuts to HSR.

HSR will be the very first thing thrown in the can to send money to other starving programs - Ohio simply figured this out earlier than the other states.

Congrats to Kasich for having a brain and a pair that clank.


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## AlanB (Dec 11, 2010)

monorailfan said:


> Congrats to Kasich for having a brain and a pair that clank.


I'm sorry but you give Mr. Kasich way too much credit; credit that he doesn't deserve.

Mr. Kasich saw that the train had become an issue in Wisconsin and quickly realized that he could use that in Ohio to get himself elected. That was his only plan. Just what he figured he do about the train once elected, I have no idea.

But it is quite clear that he had no idea about anything related to the train. He didn't know that it was a Republican plan. He didn't know that the Republican controlled State Senate had approved that plan. He didn't even realize when he made that statement about a "train cult" that he had just insulted 33 members of the Ohio Senate, most of whom are in the same party as he is.

By the way, every American will be regretting the cuts to HSR when the Fed stops funding the highways and people can't drive anymore. HSR at least had a chance of supporting itself; the highways will never be able to do that.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 11, 2010)

monorailfan said:


> I'll go against the grain here and fully support what Ohio did.


Look what the Google dragged in. Nothing says "I don't have a pair" quite like an anonymous guest post.


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## pebbleworm (Dec 11, 2010)

Poo. The cost is a pittance compared to what's being spent on our glorious victories in Iraq and Afghanistan, and at least it's being spent on infrastructure that can actually be used. If you want to bankrupt the nation slash tax revenue and spend a huge amount of money and lives on two meaningless and un-winnable wars. Wait, I think that's happened already...


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## Kurn (Dec 11, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> Might as well start rerouting the LSL thru Canada and Detroit. Erie would lose service, but once the CL is rerouted thru Erie and thru Canada, it will have service. And reroute the Cardinal thru Kentucky.
> 
> It's certainly clear that he thinks "nobody rides trains" (at least in Ohio), so why should Amtrak "waste money" by running empty trains thru Ohio?



Don't give him any ideas.This has come up before in the Ohio legislature during the early Taft administration.


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## AlanB (Dec 11, 2010)

Kurn said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Might as well start rerouting the LSL thru Canada and Detroit. Erie would lose service, but once the CL is rerouted thru Erie and thru Canada, it will have service. And reroute the Cardinal thru Kentucky.
> ...


Since the State of Ohio contributes nothing to the existing service and it is part of the National Network, they have absolutely no say regarding Amtrak's running through Ohio. They can no more stop Amtrak from running through Ohio than they can stop the snow from Lake Erie falling in Cleveland during the winter.

About the only thing that they could do, and that assumes that Ohio actually owns any train stations, would be to revoke Amtrak's lease and close those stations.


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## monorailfan (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks for your response Alan B. I've been reading (not posting) this board for years - and I fully respect your insight.

"He didn't know that it was a Republican plan. He didn't know that the Republican controlled State Senate had approved that plan." - doesn't matter if it was a Democrat, Republican plan, etc. The money's gone......

"He didn't even realize when he made that statement about a "train cult" that he had just insulted 33 members of the Ohio Senate, most of whom are in the same party as he is" - yes, that was pretty stupid on Kasich part. There are better ways to have this discussion.

"By the way, every American will be regretting the cuts to HSR when the Fed stops funding the highways and people can't drive anymore. HSR at least had a chance of supporting itself; the highways will never be able to do that." - I don't disagree. Americans WILL be regretting these cuts. BUT, compared to the list of all of the other bennies that are going to get cut, this ranks maybe #257.

There are many other bennies that Americans rely on every single day and these are all going to be substaintially modified downward. Full blown cuts to programs that are a necessity to Americans. HSR is only a 'necessity' to folks in the Northeast, and that will likely survive. The rest of America does NOT currently rely on HSR and will not miss what they don't have, and will fight to keep what they do have. HSR will get dumped....

This is a great board with great ideas, but nothing good will come out of being unrealistic.

The banks are insolvent, cash flow will eventually hinder the ability of the Fed to paper over this, and then a lot of things are going to change. Not being on the hook for maintenance and support of HSR is a good way to divert those funds to other programs that people RELY on. If brought to a vote, Americans will choose Medicade over HSR any day of the week.

So let me go back to the reason for my original post - this thread has it ALL WRONG - instead of discussing how to get something that cannot be kept, instead it should be discussing how to KEEP WHAT ROUTES ALREADY EXIST when the chopping block arrives......


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## PaulM (Dec 11, 2010)

monorailfan said:


> "By the way, every American will be regretting the cuts to HSR when the Fed stops funding the highways and people can't drive anymore. HSR at least had a chance of supporting itself; the highways will never be able to do that." - I don't disagree. Americans WILL be regretting these cuts.


Even if one accepts your theory that we are going down the tubes, it isn't until now that you are putting 2 and 2 together.



monorailfan said:


> BUT, compared to the list of all of the other bennies that are going to get cut, this ranks maybe #257.


You're back to 2 + 2 = \/13. If what you say is true, it doesn't make sense to cut something that ranks 267 and under your scenario will become an absolute necessity,.


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## afigg (Dec 11, 2010)

Peregrine said:


> I was disappointed to see North Carolina is not getting much of this money - but California and Florida are cashing in big time. Maybe a few more governors will turn down the cash and we can get our high speed rail going even more.


NC has already done very well in the HSIPR sweepstakes with $545 million in the initial ARRA grants and another $22 million in the FY2010 grants. They have done really well in terms of the current ridership numbers for the Piedmont service with only 1 train, the Carolinian, that covers the entire Piedmont corridor & connects to the NEC. The ridership numbers will of course significantly increase for the Piedmont service once the track improvements are in place and service expands to 4 daily Piedmont trains. But the NC investment won't really pay off until the SE HrSR corridor Raleigh to Richmond VA and Richmond to DC sections are largely in place. Which could be a while.


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## afigg (Dec 11, 2010)

One thought occurred to me while reading the original HSIPR ARRA awards list. Ohio requested $563.7 million for the 3C corridor and was awarded $400 million. The "up to" re-allocations being done by the FRA are the differences between the amounts originally requested by and the awards granted to the selected projects, so none of the money is going to project applications that weren't previously selected (gets the money obligated more quickly). The sad part for Ohio is that if Gov. Strickland had managed to pull out a win in Ohio, but Walker in Wisconsin still returned the WI money, the FRA press release might have said that Ohio was getting up to $163.7 million in additional funding.


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## PRR 60 (Dec 11, 2010)

AlanB said:


> ...By the way, every American will be regretting the cuts to HSR when the Fed stops funding the highways and people can't drive anymore. HSR at least had a chance of supporting itself; the highways will never be able to do that.


There are no cuts in the High Speed Rail program as a result of the actions taken by the US DOT with regard to Oho and Wisconsin. The same money will be spent on rail, just in other states. One could argue that redirecting the bulk of the funds to California and Florida actually is better for rail than the Ohio and Wisconsin plans. Ohio and Wisconsin were conventional passenger rail projects using existing trackage owned by freight railroads. While nice, neither project was particularly imaginative and both were firmly routed in 1970's thinking. By contrast, both the California and Florida projects are true high-speed rail: over 150mph on new, dedicated right-of-way. Those projects reflect the future of passenger rail.

I think the HSR program should have been directed to one or two large, true HSR projects as a means of proving the worth of modern, high-speed passenger rail. Projects like those in Ohio and Wisconsin, nice though they may have been, certainly were not a "bold, new vision" of passenger rail transportation. By default, the actions taken by DOT to move the Ohio and Wisconsin funds actually may be a good thing for those who support moving US passenger rail into the 21st century. It will bring both the Florida and California projects just a little closer to reality (in the case of Florida, a lot closer). If one or both of those project succeeds, funding of additional projects elsewhere will be desired, not fought.

Back in the 1950's and 60's, the clamor for building the Interstate Highway system was driven by the success and popularity of highways such as the Pennsylvania and New Jersey Turnpikes. The turnpikes were not just new, two-lane roads. They were a new concept in highway design - four lanes, separated by median, no crossroads, high-speed. They were the "high speed rail" of the day. It was the existence and popularity of the toll roads that moved the states and the federal government to start the Interstate Highway system. Having a true High Speed rail line in this country could do the same thing for high speed rail. To the extent that the actions taken to redirect the funds facilitates the completion of a true, high-speed rail line, I think it is a great thing.

Yes, more rail lines like the Downeaster are great. But, a true high-speed rail line, operating and making money, could be a game-changer. Neither Wisconsin or Ohio projects was going to change the future of passenger rail.


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## monorailfan (Dec 11, 2010)

"Even if one accepts your theory that we are going down the tubes, it isn't until now that you are putting 2 and 2 together"

It's just math. Plain and simple. The money is gone, the good jobs are going offshore, tax base decreasing, interest on debt increasing, etc etc etc. And yes people will regret the cuts to HSR, and they will also regret the cuts coming to everything else much more. HSR simply does not rank that high.

"You're back to 2 + 2 = \/13. If what you say is true, it doesn't make sense to cut something that ranks 267 and under your scenario will become an absolute necessity,."

HSR is only potentially a neccessity on the NEC, and I think (hope) it will survive there. It's not a necessity anywhere else, because it does not exist anywhere else in the USA. That is what makes this so easy to cut.....

I've lived decades w/o HSR, and I survive just fine.

I love passenger rail, but folks need to fight the right fight. And fighting for HSR is not one of them.

Anyway, I think I got my point across that there are lots of Passenger Rail fans in the USA, and not all support HSR. Ohio did the right thing, and the fact of the matter is, the OH election results show it. Let's hope FL gets their head screwed on straight and kills this too.


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## Big Iron (Dec 11, 2010)

monorailfan said:


> "Even if one accepts your theory that we are going down the tubes, it isn't until now that you are putting 2 and 2 together"
> 
> It's just math. Plain and simple. The money is gone, the good jobs are going offshore, tax base decreasing, interest on debt increasing, etc etc etc. And yes people will regret the cuts to HSR, and they will also regret the cuts coming to everything else much more. HSR simply does not rank that high.
> 
> ...


I think you paint an overly bleak picture of the US economy and its resiliency. Many noted eceonomists state that job creation will be the primary factor that fully rebounds the economy from this recession.

I work for a well capitalized bank that has returned to profitability and we are lending money every day, not as much as we'd like, we want to lend more. Not many people are asking, especially the small business owners.

The more centrist tone of the Obama Administration will give busines owners more faith that their investments will be rewared (not taxed into oblivion) and they will start hiring, buying more inventory, more machinery/equipment, multiplying the job creation provided by stimulus money.

Granted the 3C corridor is not going to be whiz bang fancy HSR but it will be a service that the citizens of Ohio will use, a service that they need/want, and a base for future growth towards high speed rail. Further, the proposed rail corridors are not for railfans, its for the citizens of Ohio.


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## the_traveler (Dec 11, 2010)

monorailfan said:


> If brought to a vote, Americans will choose Medicade over HSR any day of the week.


If brought to a vote between funding highways or Medicare, what would Americans chose?



How about airports or Medicare?



(Do you think airlines pay the full expenses to build and maintain airports and air traffic control?



)

So what happens when those cuts are made, and the roads and airports go to pot?



They go to trains!





Sorry, those funds were cut a long time ago!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 11, 2010)

Side note: One of the issue in Ohio is/was about maintance of their roads. How the governor elect want to fund more bridge and roads. For the people who don't live in Ohio. Ohio is in an multi-year project to wide their interstate roads to 6 lanes, that three lanes in each side. Well needed, per me and my tractor trailer. The issue is the same as what happen in Massachusett's Big Dig project, Arkansas I-540 interstate. Very big project that suck up all funds for several years, that push allot of maintance to the backburner.

If you ever have the time to drive AR I-540 there are some massive bridges and long tunnels use to make that road, and during and after the time of bulding there was talk of putting Tolls on I-40. The issue was I-40 in AR was falling apart due to lack of maintance, and the state had no funds to do anything about it.

Ohio spending all there money on building more lanes on there interstate. Also in the last few years rebuilding minor state roads into interstate like highways. While the side roads and bridges are falling down.

I think the 3C project would of been great but the people of Ohio its all about there roads and highways. Much like the rest of the country.

My two cents.


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## Ryan (Dec 11, 2010)

This has absolutely nothing to do with highway money.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 12, 2010)

Ohio got 1.1 Billion to repair roads and highway under ARRA.


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## rile42 (Dec 12, 2010)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Side note: One of the issue in Ohio is/was about maintance of their roads. How the governor elect want to fund more bridge and roads. For the people who don't live in Ohio. Ohio is in an multi-year project to wide their interstate roads to 6 lanes, that three lanes in each side. Well needed, per me and my tractor trailer. The issue is the same as what happen in Massachusett's Big Dig project, Arkansas I-540 interstate. Very big project that suck up all funds for several years, that push allot of maintance to the backburner.
> 
> If you ever have the time to drive AR I-540 there are some massive bridges and long tunnels use to make that road, and during and after the time of bulding there was talk of putting Tolls on I-40. The issue was I-40 in AR was falling apart due to lack of maintance, and the state had no funds to do anything about it.
> 
> ...


I live in an area where ODOT is considering spending $16.9 million to make an interchange on a four lane highway (Rt. 16 in Licking County) where there is a perfectly good traffic signal system. I went through that intersection for 30 years to and from my job with no problmes. That money would have run the 3-C for almost ten years. There are many such highway projects being pushed by the road construction lobby (Kokosing Construction) that are needless. I have driven the interstate from Columbus to Cleveland many times over the years and see no reason why it needs to be a six lane highway for the entire length.

One more item....the projected $17 million needed for the 3-C would not totally be needed the first two years, would probably be paid almost entirely by added income taxes from the 8000+ jobs needed and would amount to less than one-half of one percent of the total ODOT budget each year.


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## George Harris (Dec 13, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> monorailfan said:
> 
> 
> > If brought to a vote, Americans will choose Medicade over HSR any day of the week.
> ...


How about that every working person in the non-government employee workforce is paying into medicare, many of as long as it has existed? This little play is a straw man. These alternatives are not in the same pot.

How about rail versus the National Endowment for the Arts, the Department of Education (that is a state function) or other completely non-necessary governmental functions?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 13, 2010)

Another Letter

Interesting considering Canton won't directly benefit from the now defunct plan.


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## Kurn (Dec 13, 2010)

monorailfan said:


> "Even if one accepts your theory that we are going down the tubes, it isn't until now that you are putting 2 and 2 together"
> 
> It's just math. Plain and simple. The money is gone, the good jobs are going offshore, tax base decreasing, interest on debt increasing, etc etc etc. And yes people will regret the cuts to HSR, and they will also regret the cuts coming to everything else much more. HSR simply does not rank that high.
> 
> ...



The Ohio election results don't show any such thing.Kasich(R-Wall St)won by the narrowest of margins.


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