# No Diesel on SEPTA



## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm curious about why SEPTA no longer uses diesel rolling stock. All they have are electric locomotives and EMU's.


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## John Bredin (Apr 5, 2016)

Because all SEPTA regional trains run through a tunnel under downtown Philadelphia that connects what had been two different commuter rail systems. Breathing while waiting for a train would be rather difficult if SEPTA used diesels. :giggle:


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## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

SEPTA did inherit a bunch of diesel services at its inception. In a massive cost reduction scheme they got rid of all of them and just retained the electric lines. Since then they been hostile to getting any diesel service back on line. They could potentially run 30th St terminating service at least on the Pennsy side to various potential outer zones outside electric territory. But that is not going to happen.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 5, 2016)

One fleet to maintain, faster acceleration, one power contract...


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## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

Actually they are sort of stuck with at least two power contracts. One for their owned tracks and one for the service they run on Amtrak owned tracks.

But your point is well taken anyway.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 5, 2016)

Of course, they may have some diesel powered maintenance equipment.... Metra certainly does. But do they have a contract for the power or just with Amtrak?

Not to offend any Philadephians, but when I took Septa to and from the airport I wasn't particularly impressed, it felt like the 1950's onboard (or the South Shore) with small windows, slow trains and schlubby uniforms (windbreakers!!! I guess I'm used to Metra's comparatively spiffy uniforms which most of the conductors wear pretty proudly).


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## jis (Apr 5, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Of course, they may have some diesel powered maintenance equipment.... Metra certainly does. But do they have a contract for the power or just with Amtrak?


They inherited two different power systems, the Pennsy side and the Reading side. I believe the entire Pennsy side system is managed by Amtrak and SEPTA simply buys power from them. The Reading side OTOH is most likely managed by them. I am not quite sure. Maybe PRR60 knows the layout with greater certainty since he used to work for PECO.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 5, 2016)

John Bredin said:


> Because all SEPTA regional trains run through a tunnel under downtown Philadelphia that connects what had been two different commuter rail systems. Breathing while waiting for a train would be rather difficult if SEPTA used diesels. :giggle:


You're correct about that. You sure wouldn't wanna be breathing "diseasel" while waiting for a train. :lol:

As a matter of fact, this is the main purpose for Dual Mode locos in certain areas.


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## CCC1007 (Apr 5, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> John Bredin said:
> 
> 
> > Because all SEPTA regional trains run through a tunnel under downtown Philadelphia that connects what had been two different commuter rail systems. Breathing while waiting for a train would be rather difficult if SEPTA used diesels. :giggle:
> ...


Much easier to just electrify everything that you can, and have transfers.


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## benjibear (Apr 11, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Not to offend any Philadephians, but when I took Septa to and from the airport I wasn't particularly impressed, it felt like the 1950's onboard (or the South Shore) with small windows, slow trains and schlubby uniforms (windbreakers!!! I guess I'm used to Metra's comparatively spiffy uniforms which most of the conductors wear pretty proudly).


When I rode Metra a few years ago, I am not even sure I noticed the uniforms because the train was so bad. Trash everywhere and the windows were so dirty it was like watching a scrambled cable channel.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 11, 2016)

benjibear said:


> Metra Electric Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Not to offend any Philadephians, but when I took Septa to and from the airport I wasn't particularly impressed, it felt like the 1950's onboard (or the South Shore) with small windows, slow trains and schlubby uniforms (windbreakers!!! I guess I'm used to Metra's comparatively spiffy uniforms which most of the conductors wear pretty proudly).
> ...


Obviously one of the west suburban lines.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 11, 2016)

SEPTA and NJT are both known to their riders for their cleanliness and friendly, professional staff! Not!!

Ditto for METRA!!


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 11, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> SEPTA and NJT are both known to their riders for their cleanliness and friendly, professional staff! Not!!
> 
> Ditto for METRA!!


I'd have to disagree about Metra, my line is generally very clean and 95% of the staff are friendly and professional (I have witnessed some odd, two in fact, one regarding the quiet car and I've forgotten the other, incidents lately from conductors when I've been on different trains than usual). Can't speak for the diesel lines, since I rarely ever ride them.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 11, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider--

When you took SEPTA to the airport, were you on one of the old ones that looks like it has 100-year-old coffee stains ingrained in the floor? They have been introducing new trains for a while now, and they are much nicer.

I like SEPTA's new trains, and I have almost always had friendly and professional conductors when on SEPTA. In fact, I love SEPTA. But that may be because my daily commute is on NJ Transit, and the grass is always greener on the other side of the river!


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 11, 2016)

Glad to hear that SEPTA is doing better and it looks like METRA is cleaning up its act too?!!

Is there any hope for NJT???

( after all the NYC Subways have really cleaned up their act in the past few years!)


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## CCC1007 (Apr 11, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Glad to hear that SEPTA is doing better and it looks like METRA is cleaning up its act too?!!
> 
> Is there any hope for NJT???
> 
> ( after all the NYC Subways have really cleaned up their act in the past few years!)


There might be as they just got a new director.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 11, 2016)

Bob D.--

I agree with CCC1007. (Check out my post about William Crosbie becoming new executive director here in the Commuter Rail section. Not only to see a bit more information on him, but also to give my post more than one reply!  Apparently NJT isn't the hot topic I think it is  .)


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## Hal (Apr 11, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Metra Electric Rider--
> 
> When you took SEPTA to the airport, were you on one of the old ones that looks like it has 100-year-old coffee stains ingrained in the floor? They have been introducing new trains for a while now, and they are much nicer.
> 
> I like SEPTA's new trains, and I have almost always had friendly and professional conductors when on SEPTA. In fact, I love SEPTA. But that may be because my daily commute is on NJ Transit, and the grass is always greener on the other side of the river!


Both times in recent years that I took Septa to the airport the cars were old. Very strange to me for an airport line there was no place for luggage and the conductor said to put my 24 inch bag in a seat.


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## Acela150 (Apr 11, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> SEPTA and NJT are both known to their riders for their cleanliness and friendly, professional staff! Not!!
> 
> Ditto for METRA!!


Yeah us Philadelphians love our disgusting public transit system.. Why do you think some people call it Septic?



Mystic River Dragon said:


> Metra Electric Rider--
> 
> When you took SEPTA to the airport, were you on one of the old ones that looks like it has 100-year-old coffee stains ingrained in the floor? They have been introducing new trains for a while now, and they are much nicer.
> 
> I like SEPTA's new trains, and I have almost always had friendly and professional conductors when on SEPTA. In fact, I love SEPTA. But that may be because my daily commute is on NJ Transit, and the grass is always greener on the other side of the river!


Those cars, the Budd SL II's and St. Louis SL III's were the best cars that Septa had.

Ask any Septa RR employee what they think of those SL V's.. They'll tell you that their garbage. Septa picked a joke of a builder. I was on a set of SL V's that broke down in the middle of 16th Street Jct. Where the Manayunk/Norristown Line breaks off from the Septa Main Line. Lucky for Septa the engineer was able to kick start the pieces of trash. A friend who works for Septa says they're trash to maintain too..


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 12, 2016)

Acela150--

I agree, the SEPTA employees I've talked to told me the same thing--the quality of the new cars is awful, and they don't like them. 

I was looking at it from a rider's perspective (new and clean, as opposed to old and grimy). Also, remember what I get to compare it to on a daily basis--the bar doesn't have to be set high to look good next to NJT!


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## jis (Apr 12, 2016)

OTOH the NJT folks actually like both the ALP 46 and 46A, and the MLVs, not so much the 45DPs. Of course no one can help the fact that some NJ citizens are slobs


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 12, 2016)

Or, from a passenger's perspective, most of whom are not looking at the engines, they are riding in:

the nice new double-deckers, the medium-old dumpy (might be lucky and get the Comet car, though), or the very, very old and dumpy. 

Yes, some NJ residents are less than stellar citizens. Not me, of course--I try daily to bring up the tone of NJT by setting an example and not putting my feet on the seats or throwing my trash on the floor.  But it seems to be a losing cause.


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## Acela150 (Apr 12, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Acela150--
> 
> I agree, the SEPTA employees I've talked to told me the same thing--the quality of the new cars is awful, and they don't like them.
> 
> I was looking at it from a rider's perspective (new and clean, as opposed to old and grimy). Also, remember what I get to compare it to on a daily basis--the bar doesn't have to be set high to look good next to NJT!


I can completely understand that. From a riders standpoint it's nice to have "new stuff"


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## cirdan (Apr 13, 2016)

I don't think I've ever been on a SEPTA commuter train but I rode several of the streetcar lines and rode on both the remanufactured PCCs and the Kawasaki cars and the ride was fine. The cars appeared clean enough and although the staff were not especially communicative they did their job professionally so what more is there to say? It seemed to me that SEPTA is trying to do their best with insufficient funds and resources. Especially on the 15 there were sections where the track looked strung together from whatever leftover bits they could find. It was full of kinks and bumps and I thiunk any modern stretcar would have given a really rough ride but the cars they have just mastered it perfectly.


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## Acela150 (Apr 13, 2016)

The K cars are going strong. Their is talk of replacing them. Which I respond. Don't mess with it. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But Septa is the king of breaking what's not broke.

Here's the best part. These morons can't even get New Payment Technology up and working. How many public transit systems have contact less payment systems. And Septa can't get it right. Idiots. Septa is the only Public Transit System still using Tokens and Transfers. At this rate I'll be dead when Septa gets their new system going.


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## seat38a (Apr 13, 2016)

Acela150 said:


> The K cars are going strong. Their is talk of replacing them. Which I respond. Don't mess with it. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But Septa is the king of breaking what's not broke.
> 
> Here's the best part. These morons can't even get New Payment Technology up and working. How many public transit systems have contact less payment systems. And Septa can't get it right. Idiots. Septa is the only Public Transit System still using Tokens and Transfers. At this rate I'll be dead when Septa gets their new system going.


It makes me wonder how Amtrak got it right with their apps and e ticketing so quickly. Metrolink just fully launched their mobile app for purchasing tickets. It seems one thing that Amtrak gets right (most of the time) is their ticketing system.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 14, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Metra Electric Rider--
> 
> When you took SEPTA to the airport, were you on one of the old ones that looks like it has 100-year-old coffee stains ingrained in the floor? They have been introducing new trains for a while now, and they are much nicer.
> 
> I like SEPTA's new trains, and I have almost always had friendly and professional conductors when on SEPTA. In fact, I love SEPTA. But that may be because my daily commute is on NJ Transit, and the grass is always greener on the other side of the river!


It was a few years ago now, maybe like 4-5 right after my cousin moved there. It was the whole design that felt old (and this from someone who at the time spent most of his train time in a 40 year old rustbucket highliner, but very comfortably spending that time) not that the cars themselves were that old or dirty.

Next time I'm there I'll try to ride the subway and streetcars.

Metra's Vulture app has been a resounding, smashing success from what I can tell.


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## John Bredin (Apr 14, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Metra's Vulture app has been a resounding, smashing success from what I can tell.


Wow, autocorrect strikes again! For those unfamiliar with Chicago, the transit app is Ventra. :giggle: And yes, it's a great success. (Ventra had some teething problems when it was new and a CTA/Pace-only show. Metra didn't get onboard until all that was long-since ironed out.)

For years, most Metra conductors have announced before the train leaves Chicago that there's a surcharge for tickets bought on the train when boarding at a station with an on-duty ticket agent (which is all the time for the Chicago termini). Now most conductors also announce that one can download the Ventra app and buy a ticket online. The surcharge is higher now, but there's also more ways than ever to avoid it.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 15, 2016)

John Bredin said:


> Metra Electric Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Metra's Vulture app has been a resounding, smashing success from what I can tell.
> ...


Haha, no, it wasn't autocorrect, that's what people called it when it was introduced to the CTA (primarily on the CTA Tattler site - started by a journalist). Ventra is a farecard for CTA/Pace, but an app on smartphones for Metra. I don't know where the interchangeability is/lies/rests since I don't have a smartphone, use a paper monthly ticket and have an unregistered vulture card for the CTA when I need to take the el or a bus.

They still make the announcement about the $5 surcharge (at a station with ticket machine, unless said machines are out of order*) and there is now an auto announcement "lauch smartphone application now."

*Do the other metra lines have ticket machines in the stations? MED does, but I don't think the others do.


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## John Bredin (Apr 15, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Haha, no, it wasn't autocorrect, that's what people called it when it was introduced to the CTA (primarily on the CTA Tattler site - started by a journalist). Ventra is a farecard for CTA/Pace, but an app on smartphones for Metra. I don't know where the interchangeability is/lies/rests since I don't have a smartphone, use a paper monthly ticket and have an unregistered vulture card for the CTA when I need to take the el or a bus.
> 
> They still make the announcement about the $5 surcharge (at a station with ticket machine, unless said machines are out of order*) and there is now an auto announcement "lauch smartphone application now."
> 
> *Do the other metra lines have ticket machines in the stations? MED does, but I don't think the others do.


Well, I'm not surprised about "Vulture" for Ventra considering (1) it did have initial rollout problems, though IME Ventra works fine now (card and app), and (2) CTA Tattler has a faction among the comment-posters (not the blogger himself) for whom the CTA can do absolutely no right. Some of these posters have an unnatural hatred for the seating on the 5000-series L cars; despite Boston and New York having similar seating on their subways for years, and despite most riders at the height of rush-hour being standees no matter how the seats are arranged, the posters insist that this was obviously the stupidest seating arrangement ever devised and proof that the CTA hates and seeks to discomfit its riders.
I'm not sure either what the interoperability of Ventra between Metra and CTA/Pace is supposed to be. As you say, the app actually holds Metra tickets while CTA/Pace fares are still paid by fare card. The Ventra app *does* have all CTA (L and bus), Metra, and Pace schedules and real-time trackers in one very convenient place (head and shoulders better than GoRoo, the RTA trip planner) and allows one to use the same account to buy and hold Metra tickets and to refill one's Ventra card.

As to Metra ticket machines, I don't know about outlying stations but the non-Electric Chicago termini (Union Station, Ogilvie, and LaSalle St.) have ticket machines now.


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## RSG (Apr 18, 2016)

John Bredin said:


> I'm not sure either what the interoperability of Ventra between Metra and CTA/Pace is supposed to be. As you say, the app actually holds Metra tickets while CTA/Pace fares are still paid by fare card. The Ventra app *does* have all CTA (L and bus), Metra, and Pace schedules and real-time trackers in one very convenient place (head and shoulders better than GoRoo, the RTA trip planner) and allows one to use the same account to buy and hold Metra tickets and to refill one's Ventra card.


I think the CTA non-ticketing capability for the Ventra app has more to do with the complete implementation of a contactless payment system. Presumably once NFC becomes universal in smartphones, they will allow/integrate that with their system.

There may also be an issue with concerns about universal acceptance among their riders. I only use CTA when passing through Chicago as a visitor/passenger, but many of the times I’ve gone into a station, there’s often an agent assisting someone with issues concerning a vending machine. I imagine they don’t want to throw another wrench into the system. (You also don’t want someone slapping their phone on the card reader pad multiple times because the phone isn’t set up to make transactions with the system in the first place.)


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 19, 2016)

They are removing the ticket machines from some of the MED stations gradually (obviously the downtown stations have them, plus ticket agents and Randolph and Van Buren) - I think the app has been a bigger success than expected/anticipated.

I've met Kevin of the Tattler at a party - nice guy - was a colleague of a good friend of mine. Yeah, the obsession with the new cars on the el borders on insanity (though the stupid poles _do_ reduce capacity more than just a suspended rail would have.

I don't think they'll ever fully go to the smartphones for fare medium since they are far from universal.


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