# 4 Trains Carrying 2,000 People Stuck Under English Channel



## MrFSS (Dec 19, 2009)

*Passengers have described how they opened emergency doors themselves to escape broken down Eurostar trains after becoming stranded in the Channel Tunnel, Sky News reported.*

Some 2,000 travelers were trapped in four trains for 10 hours overnight in a "complete nightmare" ordeal.

Conditions were described as "awful" with some passengers left without light, air-conditioning, food or water.

*Full Story*

And, *more info* with video.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 19, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> *Passengers have described how they opened emergency doors themselves to escape broken down Eurostar trains after becoming stranded in the Channel Tunnel, Sky News reported.*
> Some 2,000 travelers were trapped in four trains for 10 hours overnight in a "complete nightmare" ordeal.
> 
> Conditions were described as "awful" with some passengers left without light, air-conditioning, food or water.
> ...


Let's hope that this doesn't happen here in the NE as the current storm moves up into New England! I don't miss the NE winters for sure, guess Eric is smiling over in the Islands, wonder if Neil was on one of this trains, doesn't he usually fly to the Continent when he leaves England?


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## MrFSS (Dec 19, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> . . . wonder if Neil was on one of this trains, doesn't he usually fly to the Continent when he leaves England?


His trip reports say he usually tale the train in the Chunnel.


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## DET63 (Dec 19, 2009)

The Channel Tunnel should be shut down until a more satisfactory emergency system is in place. The one that was there (if indeed there was one at all) was obviously not satisfactory.


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## GG-1 (Dec 19, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > *Passengers have described how they opened emergency doors themselves to escape broken down Eurostar trains after becoming stranded in the Channel Tunnel, Sky News reported.*
> ...


Aloha

Been reading about all the concern about the storm that maybe I can cheer up anypne stuck in the storm. Last night it got so cold in Honolulu on Oahu, I had to sleep in a T-Shirt :lol:  Sorry I could help it, I do hope everyone gets where they are going safely.


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## Neil_M (Dec 19, 2009)

DET63 said:


> The Channel Tunnel should be shut down until a more satisfactory emergency system is in place. The one that was there (if indeed there was one at all) was obviously not satisfactory.


So how many people were injured or killed then?


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## Neil_M (Dec 19, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > . . . wonder if Neil was on one of this trains, doesn't he usually fly to the Continent when he leaves England?
> ...


I used the Eurostar last week, but flew to Zurich on Tuesday and came back this afternoon. Quite lucky really!


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## Shanghai (Dec 19, 2009)

I've been on the Eurostar several times. It take about 20 minutes to pass through the Chunnel and it is very dark, except for the

lights in the train. I would think it would be very distressful to be stuck in the Chunnel without and water.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 19, 2009)

i thought the tunnel had lights on the walls like subway tunnels. they must not have been working.


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## PetalumaLoco (Dec 19, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> i thought the tunnel had lights on the walls like subway tunnels. they must not have been working.


Maybe it was at night. :blink:


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## GG-1 (Dec 19, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > i thought the tunnel had lights on the walls like subway tunnels. they must not have been working.
> ...


Or somebody forgot to pay the electric bill  :lol: 

Aloha


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## jis (Dec 20, 2009)

DET63 said:


> The Channel Tunnel should be shut down until a more satisfactory emergency system is in place. The one that was there (if indeed there was one at all) was obviously not satisfactory.


Could you elaborate? Or are you just blowing smoke?  I'd recommend that you spend a little time googling on the subject and learn a bit about what is there and what is not first. 

Should the North River Tunnels in New York be shut down too, since it has next to no emergency system when compared to the Channel Tunnel?


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## Neil_M (Dec 20, 2009)

jis said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > The Channel Tunnel should be shut down until a more satisfactory emergency system is in place. The one that was there (if indeed there was one at all) was obviously not satisfactory.
> ...



Exactly.

Seeing as an Air France plane crashed into the ocean a few months ago, maybe they should have stopped all planes flying over the Atlantic, any planes owned by Air France, any Airbus planes from flying or any planes flying at all seeing a more satisfactory emergency system is in place, if indeed there was one at all.

How many people have been killed in the Channel Tunnel?

(A clue is it is less than 1.)


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## stonesfan (Dec 20, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > DET63 said:
> ...


Don't be too surprised at a shambles like this. Whilst French and British railways generally have a reputation for being up there with the best, we do especially struggle in Britain when things go wrong. Whether its bad weather, a breakdown of a train, having to deal with a surge in passenger numbers for special events etc. There is very rarely any plan b.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 20, 2009)

well you got your wish.



> Eurostar train services canceled indefinitely
> LONDON — The only passenger rail link between Britain and the rest of Europe has been shut down indefinitely, Eurostar said Sunday, promising more travel misery for thousands of stranded passengers just before Christmas.


http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-gener...ain.Breakdowns/


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## DET63 (Dec 20, 2009)

I'd call it luck that no one was seriously injured (if indeed that's the case).



> Should the North River Tunnels in New York be shut down too, since it has next to no emergency system when compared to the Channel Tunnel?


How long are those tunnels? I'll bet they're a lot shorter than the Channel Tunnel, meaning that passengers, if they had to hoof it out, would be able to do so.


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## jis (Dec 20, 2009)

DET63 said:


> I'd call it luck that no one was seriously injured (if indeed that's the case).


Why would they get injured unless of course they decided to beat each other up?

We are all gently trying to point out that the premise on which you are basing your comment is unfounded. It would have been an issue if there was ventilation failure but that was not the case given the triple redundant ventilation system that those tunnels, the two running tunnels and the service tunnel for use as an escape route in case of fire, are all equipped with, together with massive fire doors to seal off individual sections of tunnels in case of severe fire.

They apparently held the trains inside the tunnel where their electrical systems failed due to condensation on extremely cold equipment until they could make sure that they could get them to a station where they could safely offboard the passengers. It was safer for the people who were stuck to be in a nice protected warm and properly ventilated environment inside the tunnel than in freezing cold with no power outside.

As for the comment about the North River tubes being short, it is, as you might say, a matter of immense luck that so far there has not been a significant fire incident in one of them. There is literally no way for people to be pulled out of those tunnel in case of a significant fire, unlike in the Channel Tunnel where people can escape away from the fire into the Service tunnel and seal the tunnel with the fire off.


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## jis (Dec 20, 2009)

Shanghai said:


> I've been on the Eurostar several times. It take about 20 minutes to pass through the Chunnel and it is very dark, except for thelights in the train. I would think it would be very distressful to be stuck in the Chunnel without and water.


It is dark when the tunnel light are not switched on. Actually when the lights are switched on it is surprisingly bright. And then there are those green beacons pointing to escape cross tunnels connecting to the service tunnel. Of course the crossover caverns also can be lit up quite brightly.


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## jis (Dec 20, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> well you got your wish.


Well, Eurostars are canceled until a cause is definitively determined and corrective actions taken, a very reasonable and prudent thing to do. But this has nothing to do with safety of the Chunnel. The Chunnel is not shut down. The car/truck ferry service is still capable of operating. The electric engines that do the ferrying are of a different design and apparently do not have the condensation problem that the Eurostar sets do. The problem is that the highway from Frethune is shut down in France and hence after getting to the French side there is nowhere for the road traffic to go, and hence there is no point in taking them there in the first place, and hence the massive backup in the UK. As soon as the road stuation clears up the car and truck ferry service will be running full capacity again.


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## DET63 (Dec 21, 2009)

jis said:


> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> > I've been on the Eurostar several times. It take about 20 minutes to pass through the Chunnel and it is very dark, except for thelights in the train. I would think it would be very distressful to be stuck in the Chunnel without and water.
> ...


And if there is a major power outage, are there sufficient backup systems to light those lights deep in the tunnel?


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## Neil_M (Dec 21, 2009)

DET63 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Shanghai said:
> ...


Yes, because the tunnel lighting is not run off the overhead power cables..... funnily enough....

If you are going to get stuck in a tunnel, then the Channel Tunnel is your tunnel of choice, walkway alongside the trains, frequent cross passages into the service tunnel, fire fighting equipment and powerful ventilation.

At least if there is a serious incident ( trains breaking down isn't a serious incident) then you have a very good chance of getting out ok, now tell me a fire on a train in one of the NY tunnels or the Moffat Tunnel, and someone pulling the emergency brake in a panic, would give you the same chance. You can't.

As I said before, how many people were injured or killed at the weekend in the Channel Tunnel?

Clue= the number is still less than 1.

Just thought I would add this link, maybe it might help, possibly.

http://www.eurotunnel.com/ukcP3Main/ukcCor...Infrastructure/


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## DET63 (Dec 21, 2009)

Eurostar runs test trains in Channel tunnel but no passenger service



> Elderly travellers and families rerouted on to Dover ferries but roads to ports clear after 12-hour jams
> After three days of travel misery on Channel rail services, empty test trains gingerly started running as Eurostar engineers worked to solve the puzzle of multiple breakdowns between London and Paris.
> 
> 
> ...


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## leemell (Dec 21, 2009)

Anybody offering any clues as to what took out four trains that hasn't happened before? The only thing I heard was that there was ice on the trains out of France and it melted in the warmer tunnel and somehow caused the malfunction of the trains. At first blush this seems improbable as they have surely encountered these conditions before.


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## jis (Dec 21, 2009)

leemell said:


> Anybody offering any clues as to what took out four trains that hasn't happened before? The only thing I heard was that there was ice on the trains out of France and it melted in the warmer tunnel and somehow caused the malfunction of the trains. At first blush this seems improbable as they have surely encountered these conditions before.


What I came to understand is that certain parts of the electrical equipment that had gotten more cooled than was ever experienced before while running outside then was hit by warm moist air as the train entered the warm humid tunnels. Water condensed from the cooling air circulation into places where they were not designed to handle such, thus causing electrical short circuit and hence the complete failure of electric supply on the trains. Mind you this is my vague understanding from the usual less than perfect and somewhat garbled stuff that we get in the form of news reporting, so it is itself subject to correction.

I also read in one report that similar failures have occasionally occurred in the past but not to such a massive degree. Which of course leaves one wondering why Eurostar and Alstom were sitting on their hands and had done nothing about investigating and fixing the problem proactively.


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## DET63 (Dec 22, 2009)

> I also read in one report that similar failures have occasionally occurred in the past but not to such a massive degree. Which of course leaves one wondering why Eurostar and Alstom were sitting on their hands and had done nothing about investigating and fixing the problem proactively.


Yep, good questions.


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## Neil_M (Dec 22, 2009)

jis said:


> I also read in one report that similar failures have occasionally occurred in the past but not to such a massive degree. Which of course leaves one wondering why Eurostar and Alstom were sitting on their hands and had done nothing about investigating and fixing the problem proactively.


Because its human nature to not investigate failures that haven't happened yet?

A lot of these types of failure are due to random coincidences, maybe the snow was more fine than normal, maybe the tunnel was slightly warmer, very hard to predict, even harder to test for.

I worked on some electric locos back in the early 90s, hit by the same kind of thing. Turned out that going from pulling the train from the front to going over to push pull operation and the snow screens fitted over the air intakes being slightly too large a mesh for the snow that was flung up by the passage of the train caused all manner of electrical bangs and flashes.


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## jis (Dec 22, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I also read in one report that similar failures have occasionally occurred in the past but not to such a massive degree. Which of course leaves one wondering why Eurostar and Alstom were sitting on their hands and had done nothing about investigating and fixing the problem proactively.
> ...


Well, those failures did occur in the past. I was wondering what if anything was done about them. Or mayhaps the approach was to firmly keep all fingers and toes crossed and just hope that they won't occur again. I have seen that happen quite a bit too, and not only in the railroad industry.

Yes, I agree that some of these things can happen with very - what appeared to be inconsequential - changes in operation or environmental conditions.

I also wonder whether the previous failures under similar circumstances were actually caused by the same thing that caused this one - maybe, maybe not. I don't know.


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## DET63 (Dec 22, 2009)

> Or mayhaps the approach was to firmly keep all fingers and toes crossed and just hope that they won't occur again. I have seen that happen quite a bit too, and not only in the railroad industry.


Well, you know what they say about lightning never striking twice in the same place. (Although the opposite is actually true: lightning is statistically more likely to strike in a place it has struck before. Applying the analogy to this case, it shows how foolish hoping the same mishap won't occur again can be.)


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## Long Train Runnin' (Dec 22, 2009)

Well its running again.



> The backlog of passengers waiting to travel on Eurostar from the weekend has been cleared today, the train operator has reported.
> However, the train operator still advises customers whose journeys are not essential not to travel and to change their tickets for travel on a later date or have their tickets refunded.
> 
> A restricted service will continue to operate between 07:30 and 18:00 (GMT) on Wednesday 23rd and Thursday 24th December. More information about the indicative timetable is available on www.eurostar.com.


More here


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 25, 2009)

One of the problem Eurostar has is they use another train sets to rescue broken down sets. No Diesel rescue engine wait in the wings. Railway Today Magazine favor fault of the Eurostar.

PRR and Amtrak had problems with the GG1 with light powered snow too.

Anyways.......


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## DET63 (Dec 26, 2009)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> One of the problem Eurostar has is they use another train sets to rescue broken down sets. No Diesel rescue engine wait in the wings. Railway Today Magazine favor fault of the Eurostar.
> 
> PRR and Amtrak had problems with the GG1 with light powered snow too.
> 
> Anyways.......


Given the length of the Channel Tunnel, would it even be possible to bring diesel engines down there to pull or push a train out? Would accumulation and ventilation (or lack thereof) of diesel fumes be an issue?


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## Neil_M (Dec 26, 2009)

DET63 said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> > One of the problem Eurostar has is they use another train sets to rescue broken down sets. No Diesel rescue engine wait in the wings. Railway Today Magazine favor fault of the Eurostar.
> ...


Yes and No.


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