# Andrea Doria



## GBNorman (Nov 6, 2018)

Anyone care to discuss this July 1956 sea disaster?

To briefly recap, the ss Andrea Doria, an Italian flagged  luxury passenger vessel, was staved by a utilitarian Swedish flagged passenger/cargo vessel, the m/v Stockholm. This occurred some fifty miles off Nantucket. The Doria was sailing Westward and the Stockholm East. Visibility was marginal, but both vessels were aware of each other's presence.

The Doria sank some eleven hours after impact. The Stockholm remained seaworthy. All living souls were rescued from the Doria, but there were about 45 fatalities -  mostly Doria passengers.


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## AKA (Nov 6, 2018)

I remember this disaster. However I was a teenager so my memory has faded.  I will follow this post with interest.


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## GBNorman (Nov 6, 2018)

I was fifteen when the disaster occurred and not all that far away - Groton Long Point CT to be precise.

Even though Boards of Inquiry ruled "no fault", i.e. each party settle your own claims, I believe the Doria was at fault. She altered course cutting accross Stockholm's bow, apparently because the Doria captain thought they were too close to shoals off Nantucket. This changed the situation from neither vessel having Right of Way to Stockholm having such.

Surely our "Dutch Mariner" around here will have thoughts to share.


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## PVD (Nov 6, 2018)

One of the highlights of the 64/65 World's Fair in NY was Michelangelo's  Pieta,  brought over for display at the Vatican Pavilion. It was transported on the Andrea Doria's sister ship, Christoforo Colombo. Detailed replicas were made to test packing and safety ideas, including special casings that would float to the surface if the ship sank. (obviously a possibility that could not be dismissed lightly) The replicas were later broken up, except for one which was gifted to the Diocese of Brooklyn in whose territory the Fair was held. It is on display at a facility a few miles from where I live.


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## Ryan (Nov 6, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> I believe the Doria was at fault. She altered course cutting accross Stockholm's bow, apparently because the Doria captain thought they were too close to shoals off Nantucket. This changed the situation from neither vessel having Right of Way to Stockholm having such.


Close, but no.

In a meeting situation where the risk of collision exists, both vessels are required to alter course to starboard in order to effect a port to port passage, which the Andrea Doria failed to do.  At no time was a right of way conferred upon the Stockholm.


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## GBNorman (Nov 7, 2018)

If some wanted to save the Doria, I think it could have been done. Get enough tugs to the scene to stabilize the list, shore up the bulkheads as needed, patch over the staving, and take her in tow to wherever.

The problem of course would be where in the world could Doria call? She could never call at a US port lest she be seized in a Civil action. Same applies to a European port and the major Asian ports which at that time could be considered "civilized". She would have been confined to sailing between one underdeveloped port and another where "paper handshakes" could have kept authorities away.

That would have in no way made a salvaged Doria a paying economic venture. I think the shipowners quickly made the decision: all living have been saved; let 'er go.

This was further brought out in a New York Times article printed during the '80's which concluded that in certain seas, the Doria would have been about as seaworthy as a Staten Island ferry.


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## Ryan (Nov 7, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> She could never call at a US port lest she be seized in a Civil action. Same applies to a European port and the major Asian ports which at that time could be considered "civilized".


What makes you believe that?


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 7, 2018)

I was a very young teenager at the time of the accident and well remember it.  Having already read _A Night To Remember, _this tragedy further interested me in many things, maritime.  The first book that was written about the accident was Alvin Moscow's _Collision Course_ and was/is a good read.

There were many contributing factors in the accident in addition to the "right of way" issue.  The Stockholm had only one rather Junior Officer on the Bridge and was sailing in clear weather, not realizing that fog was nearby.  She was also sailing Eastbound in what should have been a Westbound corridor, in which the Andrea Doria was sailing.  The Doria was sailing in fog with little or no reduction in speed.  (Wanted to get to New York on time.)  While both ships' radar was working, no one on the Doria's Bridge was plotting the positions of nearby ships.  (Had that been done, the accident might have been avoided once the Doria's Captain had realized the true position of the Stockholm.)  If I recall correctly, one "expert" believed that the ships were headed directly towards each other--bow to bow.  Thus, the Captain's decision, made in the interest of avoiding the Stockholm . resulted in cutting across the Stockholm's bow because he did not properly understand the Stockholm's true position in relation to the Doria.

There was confusion on both ship's Bridge just before the time of the collusion.  On the Stockholm, the crew could not understand why they were not able to see the Doria's lights.  (Never considered the other ship being in fog.)  And, just at a critical moment, the Bridge's phone rang, causing the sole Officer to take his eyes off the radar and outside the ship in order to answer the phone.

Captain Calami did try to save the ship by turning towards shallower water to the North with the idea of beaching the ship.  But, with such a significant list, there was a fear that doing so would make the ship more unstable and make rescue efforts more difficult than they were.

Just like the Titanic, the Andrea Doria/Stockholm story is a sad tale.  The Doria rests at the bottom of the Atlantic with the remains of those who went down with her while the Stockholm still sails as a modified cruise ship.


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## cpotisch (Nov 7, 2018)

Ryan said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> > She could never call at a US port lest she be seized in a Civil action. Same applies to a European port and the major Asian ports which at that time could be considered "civilized".
> ...


I'm not familiar with marine terms so could you translate what what he said actually means?


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## GBNorman (Nov 7, 2018)

Dakota 400 said:


> The first book that was written about the accident was Alvin Moscow's _Collision Course_ and was/is a good read.


Much of my understsnding of the incident comes from reading Moscow as well. If this discussion continues, then I find it my duty to "dig it out" to be refreshed.

I further wish I could locate  that Times article stating how unseaworthy the Doria appeared to be.


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## PVD (Nov 7, 2018)

Stockholm is now known as the Astoria. There is a different ship sailing that bears the name Stockholm doing Artic cruises for small numbers of passengers..


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 7, 2018)

Another book was published after Mr. Moscow's book:  William Hoffer's _Saved!_


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## ehbowen (Nov 7, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> I'm not familiar with marine terms so could you translate what what he said actually means?


One of the complexities of admiralty (maritime) law is that all claims are filed against the *ship*, not the owners. It was, bluntly, written to protect the shipowners, not passengers, shippers, or crew. If the _Stockholm_ had been indisputably at fault (it wasn't) but all other facts in evidence were the same, the owners and passengers of the _Andrea Doria_ could expect no more recourse than to have an Admiralty court award them title to the damaged _Stockholm._ And their lawyers then would have had to fight over the scraps amongst themselves. Had the _Andrea Doria_ survived, the first time it tied up in a port which was party to accepted maritime law it could have and almost certainly would have been seized to settle claims against the ship. But, with the ship at the bottom of the Atlantic...so sorry, you have a claim? Well, there she lies; feel free to raise her and salvage her on your own nickel.

Ever wonder why J. P. Morgan and the other owners of the _Titanic_ didn't lose a bit of sleep over lawsuits and such after that sinking?


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## cpotisch (Nov 8, 2018)

ehbowen said:


> One of the complexities of admiralty (maritime) law is that all claims are filed against the *ship*, not the owners. It was, bluntly, written to protect the shipowners, not passengers, shippers, or crew. If the _Stockholm_ had been indisputably at fault (it wasn't) but all other facts in evidence were the same, the owners and passengers of the _Andrea Doria_ could expect no more recourse than to have an Admiralty court award them title to the damaged _Stockholm._ And their lawyers then would have had to fight over the scraps amongst themselves. Had the _Andrea Doria_ survived, the first time it tied up in a port which was party to accepted maritime law it could have and almost certainly would have been seized to settle claims against the ship. But, with the ship at the bottom of the Atlantic...so sorry, you have a claim? Well, there she lies; feel free to raise her and salvage her on your own nickel.
> 
> Ever wonder why J. P. Morgan and the other owners of the _Titanic_ didn't lose a bit of sleep over lawsuits and such after that sinking?


Thanks! That is quite an idiotic system.


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 8, 2018)

While I understand why there was no legal determination as to which, if either, ship was mostly at fault for this disaster, I cannot help but wonder if such a determination at that time might have been helpful in preventing such an accident in the future.

Radar and Bridge-operating procedures have surely advanced since the 1950's.  Kudos to cruise companies that have instituted standardized Bridge responsibilities and duties for those on Watch regardless of the vessel on which they are serving, regardless of which cruise company that ship is a member of their fleet.


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## JRR (Nov 9, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Thanks! That is quite an idiotic system. [emoji4]


Admiralty Law is quite complex and evolved over the years with a goal of encouraging trade. This specialty is so unique that it is a distinct area of legal practice.

Take a look at Wikipedia for a brief explanation of this body of law.


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## PVD (Nov 9, 2018)

I have a small army of friends, relatives and acquaintances who are attorneys, ranging from ambulance chasers to a federal judge. number that practice admiralty and shipping law - exactly one....and I live in an area with a very active international  freight and large passenger ship traffic port


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 9, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Thanks! That is quite an idiotic system.


In actuality it is a perfectly logical system whereby people with money employ people with knowledge to write rules which protect the powerful from the weak.  Morality ≠ logic.


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## jis (Nov 9, 2018)

Seems to be that they treat each ship like an LLC in and of itself, thus fencing off liabilities on a per ship basis. I am not suggesting that it is right or wrong, but am trying to understand it within the framework of corporate governance.


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## PVD (Nov 9, 2018)

It's like layers on an onion. Peel one back and there is another. Consider that most ships are registered/flagged in a country which is often not the domicile of the owners, who are further often  operating as a corporation formed under the laws of  a 3rd country.


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## JRR (Nov 9, 2018)

jis said:


> Seems to be that they treat each ship like an LLC in and of itself, thus fencing off liabilities on a per ship basis. I am not suggesting that it is right or wrong, but am trying to understand it within the framework of corporate governance.


As I posted earlier, the body of law evolved to encourage and protect commerce. An example is when a ship arrives at a port and needs services (repairs , fuel etc.), in order to move on to the next port and deliver goods etc. Unless persons can deal with the ship to deliver what's needed, the ship would not be able to leave. If there are liens which need to be released before the ship can leave, they can be transferred to a surety bond in an amount determined by a court, and then the ship can leave free and clear of the liens.

Thus, the ship itself is the security for any debts incurred (unless transferred to a bond as indicated above) and the "lien priority" is established giving the current debt priority rather than as a mortgage on your house where the oldest established lien has priority.

This seems odd to us who are familiar normal lien priorities. Remember, keeping the goods in active commerce ( remember, those who ship the goods on a particular ship are unknown to each other but have a common interest in having the goods delivered to their ultimate destination).


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## trainman74 (Nov 9, 2018)

PVD said:


> I have a small army of friends, relatives and acquaintances who are attorneys, ranging from ambulance chasers to a federal judge. number that practice admiralty and shipping law - exactly one....and I live in an area with a very active international  freight and large passenger ship traffic port


My father did a _little_ bit of admiralty work as a young lawyer -- I believe one of the partners at his firm specialized in it.


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## GBNorman (Nov 9, 2018)

This is great  discussion that has developed regarding the Doria. Had "save her above all" been paramount, I believe she could have been. 

Why our Dutch Mariner around here, who I know disagrees with me on that point, has been silent   escapes me.

However, as I noted earlier, had their been a judicial proceeding where the objective was to find fault, it would have been with the Doria. Very simply, she was "driving too fast for conditions",  and when she realized that someone was "sort of in her lane",  she "swerved into that someone's right of way and got T-Boned".

Maritime and motor vehicle rights of way are quite similar. Likely the latter was drawn from the former.

Finally, Moscow did point out that Italian skippers had traditionally wanted to stay away from the shoals. Funny though, how a latter day one in command of the "Concordia" chose to violate that unwritten rule simply to show off.


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 9, 2018)

Responding to GBNorman:

Based upon what as a non-expert that I know, I really doubt that the Andrea Doria could have been saved before she sank.  Given the list that she increasingly experienced after the collision, the time needed to get a repair team in place to do their work and then to actually do their work to try to save the ship, and subsequent inspections of the hull in the area of the collision by divers after she sank, there just wasn't any hope that she could be saved once the Captain determined it was too unsafe to try to sail her into shallow waters.

One report by a dive team that I read said that the Stockholm's intrusion into the Doria had even penetrated her keel.

Given the severity of the ship's list which made it impossible for 50% of her lifeboats to be used, it ought to be considered a blessing for those Andrea Doria guests and crew that so many other ships were nearby to help rescue them.  While the _Isle de France _has been turned into "razor blades" or whatever. her Captain and his ship's role in preventing this tragedy from becoming of a "Titanic" proportion should never be forgotten.


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## PVD (Nov 9, 2018)

There were both judicial and congressional inquires. the court proceedings resulted in a settlement agreement which included non disclosure on many points, The Wikipedia article on the A/D has a pretty good summary of the congressional hearing findings....


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Nov 13, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Thanks! That is quite an idiotic system.


System is still in place today.  The duck boat that sank is try to use it.  The container ship that burn up all the containers in front of the accommodation area is using these laws.

www.gcaptain.com great place for merchants sailors news, and forums.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Nov 28, 2018)

“The Limitation of Liability Act of 1851 limits the potential damage payout to the post-accident value of a ship plus the value of the ship’s freight – but only if the ship owner lacked knowledge of the problem or conduct leading to the accident.”


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## lthanlon (Jan 30, 2019)

While binge-watching the TV series "Seal Team" the other night, I did an online search for information about its cast. Max Thieriot's paternal grandparents died on the Andrea Doria.


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## GBNorman (Feb 18, 2019)

The current edition, #308, of "Power Ships" magazine has an article about the "Andrea Doria". It simply has to be the most beautifully proportioned ship ever to sail.

Grief, when one sees contemporary "Love Tubs", "Doria's" beautiful lines are are so appreciated.


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## cpotisch (Feb 18, 2019)

GBNorman said:


> The current edition, #308, of "Power Ships" magazine has an article about the "Andrea Doria". It simply has to be the most beautifully proportioned ship ever to sail.
> 
> Grief, when one sees contemporary "Love Tubs", "Doria's" beautiful lines are are so appreciated.


I already mentioned this in another thread, but it's worth repeating. The QE2 conquers all one it comes to beautiful ocean-liners and cruise ships:


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## PVD (Feb 18, 2019)

Ships built as liners tend to look sleeker than boxy modern cruise ships. The liner United States, tied up in Philly, despite its faded paint, is still a thing of beauty. Hopefully it will get some love in the near future.


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## cpotisch (Feb 18, 2019)

PVD said:


> Ships built as liners tend to look sleeker than boxy modern cruise ships. The liner United States, tied up in Philly, despite its faded paint, is still a thing of beauty. Hopefully it will get some love in the near future.


Wow, that is one sleek ship.


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## PVD (Feb 18, 2019)

Sadly, it is very faded right now.... If you watch "Parking Wars" reruns, sometimes you can see it in the background of certain exterior shots at the PPA impound lot.  Amazing liner, Blue Riband holder (fastest Atlantic liner crossing) built and fitted out with virtually no wood to reduce fire hazard....


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 18, 2019)

GBNorman said:


> The current edition, #308, of "Power Ships" magazine has an article about the "Andrea Doria". It simply has to be the most beautifully proportioned ship ever to sail.


I enjoyed Mr. Miller's article and photos, as well.  I agree that inside and out, she was a beautiful ship.  I regret that I was never able to sail on her sister, _Cristoforo Colombo _or the ship that the Italian Line built to replace _Andrea Doria, Leonardo da Vinci._


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## PVD (Feb 18, 2019)

Cristoforo Colombo carried Michelangelo's Pieta to the NY World's Fair for display at the Vatican Pavilion. They were very concerned about what would happen if the ship sank (well considering it's sister did I get it) so they had a special crate that would float if the ship went down. Replicas were made to test packing methods. The one surviving exact replica from that project resides in Douglaston at Immaculate Conception Center.  I feel like I may have posted this somewhere before, if it was here, I do apologize....

From the Vatican Guide to the Pavilion:


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 18, 2019)

PVD said:


> Cristoforo Colombo carried Michelangelo's Pieta to the NY World's Fair for display at the Vatican Pavilion. They were very concerned about what would happen if the ship sank (well considering it's sister did I get it) so they had a special crate that would float if the ship went down. Replicas were made to test packing methods. The one surviving exact replica from that project resides in Douglaston at Immaculate Conception Center.  I feel like I may have posted this somewhere before, if it was here, I do apologize....
> 
> From the Vatican Guide to the Pavilion:


I do remember this.  Thanks for the photo; have not seen that before.  I remember seeing the Pieta at the World's Fair.  It's setting in the Vatican Pavilion was stunning!

The replica at Douglaston:  where is that?  I am not familiar with that location.


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## GBNorman (Feb 18, 2019)

Here is Andrea (male) in this ship beauty contest that seems to have started here.


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## PVD (Feb 18, 2019)

http://www.nycago.org/organs/qns/html/immaculateconctr.html

The back part of the property was sold off for townhouses, it now serves many functions for the Brooklyn Diocese. I rented it a few times for Ice Hockey Coaching Seminars and meetings, I used to have access through my work at the now extinct Catholic Medical Center of Brooklyn and Queens.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 19, 2019)

Dakota 400 said:


> The replica at Douglaston:  where is that?  I am not familiar with that location


Thank you PVD for the information.


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## PVD (Feb 19, 2019)

from the archives of NYU

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/bkg/wf/blog/2007/10/the_pieta_in_the_night_sky.html


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 19, 2019)

PVD said:


> from the archives of NYU
> 
> http://www.nyu.edu/classes/bkg/wf/blog/2007/10/the_pieta_in_the_night_sky.html


I remember this so well and the information that you have provided makes my memory that more meaningful.  The article reminds me of the "snaking lines" and the moving walkways.  I had forgotten those.  The serene blue color and lighting where the Pieta was situated:  that is still vivid in my memory    The Vatican's presentation of the Pieta obviously made a deep impression upon me.  The "dawn of a new age" of unity among nations which Pope Paul VI hoped would occur remains more illusive today than it did in 1964.


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## PVD (Feb 19, 2019)

It's a funny thing how things pop up.I was talking to a class the other night about an old NYS Power Authority powerplant that was replaced by a combined cycle plant It was the Poletti Plant, and he (Charles Poletti,) was the person in charge of foreign relations for the Worlds Fair, and is considered the person most responsible for making the arrangements with the Vatican  that allowed the Pieta to come to NY. One of the apprentices asked who Poletti was, and why was the plant named for him. (Lt Gov, Gov for 1 month, on Board of Power Authority, post war work with the State Dept)


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 24, 2019)

So I remember reading way back in the day, either in Car & Driver or Motor Trend (probably C&D, was more up their alley) an article about conspiracy theories regarding the automobile industry (obviously in a car mag). Anyways, they were saying that the Andrea Doria was intentionally sunk because Chrysler had some to secret prototype or show cars being shipping from Ghia (yes, as in Karmann Ghia) in Italy which were going to revolutionize American car design or at least shoot Chrysler way ahead (why they could recreate them since I assume they had drawings and study models, I don't know....). They were destined, well, headed, that's too final of a work, to one of the major auto shows, and since they didn't arrive, well, the revolution never happened.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 24, 2019)

So the Stockholm was purposely steered to intercept the Andrea Doria's course?  Or Captaiin Calamari, the Andrea Doria's Master, steered his ship into the path of the Stockholm?  Captain Calamari went to his grave grieving over the loss of his ship and the lives entrusted to him.  He never returned to the sea after the accident.  The Captain of the Stockholm was given command of the new Swedish American Line's M. S. Gripsholm as a sign of confidence in his ability, I suppose.  (He was not on the Bridge at the time of the collision, if you recall.)

Metra Electric Rider:  what you recall having read was hogwash.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 25, 2019)

Dakota 400 said:


> So the Stockholm was purposely steered to intercept the Andrea Doria's course?  Or Captaiin Calamari, the Andrea Doria's Master, steered his ship into the path of the Stockholm?  Captain Calamari went to his grave grieving over the loss of his ship and the lives entrusted to him.  He never returned to the sea after the accident.  The Captain of the Stockholm was given command of the new Swedish American Line's M. S. Gripsholm as a sign of confidence in his ability, I suppose.  (He was not on the Bridge at the time of the collision, if you recall.)
> 
> Metra Electric Rider:  what you recall having read was hogwash.


Pretty sure you mean Captain Calamai.  I'm rather sure there were no squid in command of the Doria. Or any other Italian Line vessels.


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## cpotisch (Feb 25, 2019)

Blackwolf said:


> Pretty sure you mean Captain Calamai.  I'm rather sure there were no squid in command of the Doria. Or any other Italian Line vessels.


Captain Calamari would be a really good name for a children’s show about the life of a squid with a fishing boat, though.  :lol:


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 25, 2019)

Blackwolf said:


> Pretty sure you mean Captain Calamai.  I'm rather sure there were no squid in command of the Doria. Or any other Italian Line vessels.




Oh my gosh!  I'm so embarrassed!  I thought I had proof-read what I wrote before I posted the comment.  Apologies to the Captain's family and to AU members for my carelessness.


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## The Journalist (Feb 25, 2019)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> So I remember reading way back in the day, either in Car & Driver or Motor Trend (probably C&D, was more up their alley) an article about conspiracy theories regarding the automobile industry (obviously in a car mag). Anyways, they were saying that the Andrea Doria was intentionally sunk because Chrysler had some to secret prototype or show cars being shipping from Ghia (yes, as in Karmann Ghia) in Italy which were going to revolutionize American car design or at least shoot Chrysler way ahead (why they could recreate them since I assume they had drawings and study models, I don't know....). They were destined, well, headed, that's too final of a work, to one of the major auto shows, and since they didn't arrive, well, the revolution never happened.


The "Chrysler lost a prototype car made by Ghia" bit is accurate. It was the Norseman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Norseman 

The rest is....uh, probably not true.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 27, 2019)

The Journalist said:


> The "Chrysler lost a prototype car made by Ghia" bit is accurate. It was the Norseman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Norseman
> 
> The rest is....uh, probably not true.


Well, I *did* say conspiracy theories...  h34r:

But boy, that was one ugly car... Makes me think the good taste coalition sank it.

I remember commenting to a friend about the documentary, how dressed up (quite fashionable even) all the Italian officers were and how laid back and casual the Swedes were who they interviewed (though I suspect that the Swedes had more comfortable retirements in some ways). Apropos nothing, just thought I'd share something irrrelavent.


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