# East / West through train



## Ollie12 (Oct 6, 2020)

A thought - is there any reason Amtrak couldn't run the consists that form the Southwest Chief, the California Zephyr and the Empire Builder further east than Chicago?

By combining a western train with an eastern train Amtrak would create a true transcontinental experience, a one-seat ride with guaranteed connections and no service degradation.

A long layover in Chicago would be fine (it's done in San Antonio) and staying in one room with no luggage to accompany one sightseeing is a huge plus! Crews could change en-route (as happens in Adelaide on Australia's Indian Pacific). A Chicago base can easily be maintained. The Indian Pacific is serviced in Adelaide despite it running from Sydney to Perth. It just stops long enough to service the train (which is shunted off the platform and returned). Cars that need to be switched out could be allocated to single sectors so they can be swapped out in Chicago, likewise, additional capacity could be added for the eastern or western sectors.

To give some hypothetical examples:

The Southwest Chief and the Capitol Limited could be combined offering a one-seat ride from LA to DC. 
If Superliners can run to Boston South Station, the California Zephyr could be combined with the CHI - BOS section of the Lake Shore (with connections in Albany for NYC) offering a one-seat ride from the Bay Area to Boston
The Empire Builder could be combined with a shortened Chicago - DC Cardinal bringing a Sightseer lounge back to the Cardinal and offering a one-seat ride from Seattle / Portland to DC
The City of New Orleans could be combined with a re-timed Sunset Limited providing more connections from the South to Texas and beyond
The Cardinal or the Capitol Limited could be combined with a Silver Service train in Washington DC offering a one-seat ride from the Midwest to Florida (albeit this creates problems for NYC - potentially introducing one or two additional frequencies?
Likewise through Viewliner sleepers could operate on the Lake Shore and the Silver Meteor (if it's 9:30 pm departure could be brought forward)



Just an idea!


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## Palmetto (Oct 6, 2020)

The idea has come up before, and it gets all sorts of negative reactions. One problem is that Superliners cannot go into Boston nor New York, so there goes some ideas that have been put forth. Although not an insurmountable situation, the SW Chief and Zephyr would require a back up move out of Chicago Union Station to continue east of Chicago. They have backed into CUS in the past when arriving from the east, but not sure if they still do. Run through would be an easy matter, though, for the Empire Builder. The best chance for coast-to-coast service was the National Limited to St. Louis, and continuing on the Texas Eagle/Sunset route to L.A. IIRC, some of the rail has been pulled up between Pittsburg and Indianapolis, so that is no longer a possibility..


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## Eric S (Oct 6, 2020)

I believe, maybe in the late 1990s, that it was proposed that the Capitol Limited and Southwest Chief be run as a through train with an extended layover in Chicago. It may have happened for a relatively brief period of time. I seem to recall some discussion about whether through passengers had access to the train during the layover, although perhaps that was just speculation about potential problems if such through service occurred.


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## Exvalley (Oct 6, 2020)

You also have the problem of compounding lateness.


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## jiml (Oct 6, 2020)

Eric S said:


> I believe, maybe in the late 1990s, that it was proposed that the Capitol Limited and Southwest Chief be run as a through train with an extended layover in Chicago. It may have happened for a relatively brief period of time. I seem to recall some discussion about whether through passengers had access to the train during the layover, although perhaps that was just speculation about potential problems if such through service occurred.


1997-98. The original intent was that passengers could remain on-board during the Chicago layover, however this became impractical since the train had to be turned. (IIRC the original concept proposed was the Capitol and the Empire Builder, making this unnecessary, however the schedule was too tight.) Without the benefit of being a "through" train I suspect interest diminished, although IIRC eastbound timekeeping is what eventually killed it.


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## Trogdor (Oct 6, 2020)

Eric S said:


> I believe, maybe in the late 1990s, that it was proposed that the Capitol Limited and Southwest Chief be run as a through train with an extended layover in Chicago. It may have happened for a relatively brief period of time. I seem to recall some discussion about whether through passengers had access to the train during the layover, although perhaps that was just speculation about potential problems if such through service occurred.



IIRC, it was actually sold as a through train very briefly. Then, for a while afterwards, they continued running the equipment through even though they were separate trains. Part of that, though, was Amtrak being so desperately short of equipment that they needed to in order to maintain service (the run-through saved one set of equipment). I think the equipment run-through stopped some time in the David Gunn era. (Tangential side note: there was also a run-through of equipment between the Empire Builder and City of New Orleans during that time, though maybe not the whole consist.)


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## bms (Oct 6, 2020)

I don't know about all the way to the West Coast, but I think extending the Capitol Limited to Denver might work well. Right now there is a long wait in Chicago, and then a long wait in Denver the next morning before hotel check-in. 
Omaha and Lincoln already have a lot of passengers who would benefit from better departure and arrival times.


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## railiner (Oct 6, 2020)

Exvalley said:


> You also have the problem of compounding lateness.


That is the biggest obstacle to this proposal. Then there is the matter of maintenance and servicing. The longer the run, the more complications from any problems.
I don't think there are enough potential through passenger's to make this really worth the effort...it would be more like a "vanity" thing...having a transcontinental train.

As a passenger, I used to welcome the change of equipment in Chicago. Back in the days of Heritage trains to Vista-Dome trains, and now from Viewliner/Amfleet to Superliner. A change of scenery in the train itself was welcome variety on a long trip...


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 6, 2020)

The Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans shared Equipment for several years, till the poor OTP of the Eagle and Mechanical Problems started causing Major delays in Chicago.

No Lunch was usually served in the Diner between St. Louis and Chicago, but when the OTP became chronically Late, Sleeper passengers were allowed to get Lunch in the Cafe Car.

I also remember having to vacate the Sightseer Lounge around Joliet on the way into Chicago so it could be cleaned and prepped for departure that evening on the City, and the SCAs asking that everyone in the Sleepers have their stuff ready to de-train quickly upon arrival into Union Station.


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 6, 2020)

railiner said:


> Back in the days of Heritage trains to Vista-Dome trains, and now from Viewliner/Amfleet to Superliner. A change of scenery in the train itself was welcome variety on a long trip...



I have such a change of "train scenery" a few times with the most recent being from the Crescent to the Sunset Limited. The difference between the two trains as to their equipment was part of the enjoyable part of my journey. 

When the Sunset Limited arrived in Los Angeles, I connected to the Southwest Chief the same day. But, even with that layover of a few hours, going from "Superliner" to "Superliner" was a "ho-hum" experience by the time I got to Chicago. It was, however, interesting to note the differences in the service provided by the crew on the two trains as well as to who the Chef in the Dining Car is as to how well prepared the meals were. (This was before the current messing with the dining service.)


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## railiner (Oct 6, 2020)

And it was even better in the days when each railroad had their own decor...some better than others...


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## jiml (Oct 6, 2020)

railiner said:


> And it was even better in the days when each railroad had their own decor...some better than others...


This was never more evident than when the CN and CP sections of the Canadian were merged at Winnipeg in the early days of VIA. The CN diner from Toronto had all the ambiance of a school cafeteria, contrasted with the spectacular decor of the CP car from Montreal.


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## Willbridge (Oct 6, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> IIRC, it was actually sold as a through train very briefly. Then, for a while afterwards, they continued running the equipment through even though they were separate trains. Part of that, though, was Amtrak being so desperately short of equipment that they needed to in order to maintain service (the run-through saved one set of equipment). I think the equipment run-through stopped some time in the David Gunn era. (Tangential side note: there was also a run-through of equipment between the Empire Builder and City of New Orleans during that time, though maybe not the whole consist.)


There was a Los Angeles<>Washington, DC through sleeper via New Orleans for a while. I think it was done in by equipment incompatibility when Superliners were introduced.

When I was working on ideas for the Portland section of the _Empire Builder_ we found that running an LAX<>PDX<>CHI sleeper would save a car. Sleeper occupancy PDX<>SEA is low. Turning it in Twin Cities would save another. Turning it in Oakland or Emeryville would save another. However, Amtrak has so much difficulty with switching cars mid-route and with reliability problems on Train 14 those ideas never were followed up.


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## Willbridge (Oct 6, 2020)

jiml said:


> This was never more evident than when the CN and CP sections of the Canadian were merged at Winnipeg in the early days of VIA. The CN diner from Toronto had all the ambiance of a school cafeteria, contrasted with the spectacular decor of the CP car from Montreal.


When we rode Ottawa>Edmonton in 1977 the CN changed diners in Winnipeg. The dining crew east of there was fully bilingual and Quiche Lorraine was the special. West of there it was Perogies. Changing out the diners made cleaning easier.


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## railiner (Oct 6, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> There was a Los Angeles<>Washington, DC through sleeper via New Orleans for a while. I think it was done in by equipment incompatibility when Superliners were introduced.


It was a thru tri-weekly New York to Los Angeles heritage 10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom sleeper. This operation started before the Southern was even an Amtrak member...
And it continued well into the Superliner era, (mid '80's). 
It had to be attached to a transition car when the Sunset went Hi-Level and Superliner.
The other coast to coast sleeper went on the National Limited and the SW Limited until the National was discontinued, but it went daily....


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## Palmetto (Oct 7, 2020)

railiner said:


> It was a thru tri-weekly New York to Los Angeles heritage 10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom sleeper. This operation started before the Southern was even an Amtrak member...
> And it continued well into the Superliner era, (mid '80's).
> It had to be attached to a transition car when the Sunset went Hi-Level and Superliner.
> The other coast to coast sleeper went on the National Limited and the SW Limited until the National was discontinued, but it went daily....


A friend of mine and I traveled from San Antonio to New York in this sleeper. It was your hotel in New Orleans, and one could leave it upon arrival to go out to dinner, then return later to go to bed. The Southern Railroad had not yet joined Amtrak, so Southern employees staffed the train. I remember being rudely awoken the next morning by the Southern conductor who wanted us to produce our tickets.


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## railiner (Oct 7, 2020)

I wasn't quite sure how the OBS staffing was on that operation. Obviously the operating crews, were all SR between NOL and WAS, and the SR OBS were even on the Amtrak NEC end of the run....but not sure about that thru coast to coast sleeper...did they change attendants in NOL? If so, who staffed the car during its overnight stay in NOL? I'm pretty sure no attendant would go four nights in a car. Even the Sunset Limited, when it went to Miami, I believe changed attendants at NOL. 
I suppose the sleeper that went via Kansas City, changed attendants there?


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## Thunder (Oct 7, 2020)

6 backs in daily even if it will cost a connection.

you could do 4 the same way.
it’s dumb , but


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## Sidney (Oct 7, 2020)

Of course we did have one transcontinental train for several years until 2005..the Sunset Limited


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 7, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> A friend of mine and I traveled from San Antonio to New York in this sleeper. It was your hotel in New Orleans, and one could leave it upon arrival to go out to dinner, then return later to go to bed. The Southern Railroad had not yet joined Amtrak, so Southern employees staffed the train. I remember being rudely awoken the next morning by the Southern conductor who wanted us to produce our tickets.


Ditto, I remember this well! Except for the Santa Fe, Southern was my favorite RR in the Old Days before Amtrak.


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## Charles785 (Oct 7, 2020)

In the pre-Amtrak days, wasn't the Santa Fe Super Chief combined with either a Chicago to New York or Chicago to Washington, DC tran for those passengers who wanted a through transcontinental service?


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## bratkinson (Oct 7, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> There was a Los Angeles<>Washington, DC through sleeper via New Orleans for a while. I think it was done in by equipment incompatibility when Superliners were introduced.



I was ON the very last through sleeper NYP-LAX. As Willbridge noted, equipping the Sunset Ltd with Superliners was the end of the still steam heated single-level through sleeper. Having the night in NOL between arrival on the Crescent and the next morning departure on the Sunset allowed a few hours taking in the nightlife in New Orleans with the car acting as a hotel for through passengers.

I'd have to dig around a while, but I recall a Classic Trains issue from 10-12 years ago that was devoted almost entirely to Pullman cars and service. A portion of one of the articles discussed 'through cars' passed between railroads in Chicago to create east-west connections. In some instances, it involved moving the car(s) between Chicago train stations. At least that isn't an issue today. 

The BIG problem, however, was the amount of layover time between arrival on one train and departure on the next. To ensure connections, even back in the 50s when passenger trains usually ran close to schedule, there'd be maybe 4 hours or more 'insurance' time in Chicago. They soon discovered that rather than staying in their sleeper compartments during the daylight layover (AM arrival, PM departure), most passengers got off in Chicago and did whatever they wanted between trains. Also, by 1960 or so, some of the arriving trains couldn't be counted on arriving within the time frame needed to make the connection. The dawning of the 'jet age' and cross country travel in 6 hours or so was the death knell for all coast to coast sleepers by the early 1960s.

These days, unless someone and their family actually WANT to spend 3+ days on a train to travel NYP-LAX, for example, the odds of anyone opting for that is nearly zero. Yes, railfans will ride it, and even convince their suffering family to endure it...once. Even if the through car(s) were like the Orient Express and its expired USA attempts at duplicating it, the market simply doesn't exist for a business to last much longer than their initial funding (subscriptions, stocks, bonds, whatever) will permit.


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## railiner (Oct 8, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> In the pre-Amtrak days, wasn't the Santa Fe Super Chief combined with either a Chicago to New York or Chicago to Washington, DC tran for those passengers who wanted a through transcontinental service?


Prior to Amtrak, as bratkinson mentioned above, there were thru sleepers on several routes, but no through trains...


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## railiner (Oct 8, 2020)

bratkinson said:


> I was ON the very last through sleeper NYP-LAX. As Willbridge noted, equipping the Sunset Ltd with Superliners was the end of the still steam heated single-level through sleeper. Having the night in NOL between arrival on the Crescent and the next morning departure on the Sunset allowed a few hours taking in the nightlife in New Orleans with the car acting as a hotel for through passengers.


It ended...but it came back in 1984 and 1985...








LAST STOP FOR COAST-TO-COAST SLEEPER CAR (Published 1985)







www.nytimes.com





This reference is from the 1985 timetable...


The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## sttom (Oct 8, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> In the pre-Amtrak days, wasn't the Santa Fe Super Chief combined with either a Chicago to New York or Chicago to Washington, DC tran for those passengers who wanted a through transcontinental service?


If I'm remembering my research correctly, the Chief handled the through cars and the Super Chief was limited stop train. I know the Chief handled the through cars from The New York Central, the Central of New Jersey and maybe a train from DC (not 100% on a DC connection). It also handled the other through cars from around the Santa Fe system including cars from Denver, Phoenix and San Diego. Among other trains handling through cars at various points in the Santa Fe's history.


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## railiner (Oct 9, 2020)

The Chief and the Super Chief carried thru sleeper's at different times, and from different roads....
In the East, the New York Central, Pennsylvania, and Baltimore and Ohio carried various thru sleepers with various 'western' roads. 
I don't believe the Jersey Central ever participated in any of this. You need to peruse some old Official Railway Guides to fully research this, or maybe find some info here...




__





The Super Chief - July, 1956 - Streamliner Schedules


July 1956 timetable for the Super Chief passenger train at Streamliner Schedules.



www.streamlinerschedules.com


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## Willbridge (Oct 10, 2020)

I pulled put a 1951 CB&Q schedule and was reminded that the cars through Chicago were a novelty even when there was still a fair amount of business travel in sleepers. The CB&Q had a single transcon sleeper line running in the _California Zephyr, _and east of Chicago it alternated even and odd days of the week via the Pennsy and the New York Central. There were more potential customers then who might have understood the pros and cons of all that, but not enough of them.

And you could hope that your friend in Manhattan knew which station to meet you at. I've spent enough time behind ticket counters to know how hard it is to explain something that tricky.

My understanding of this short-lived phenomenon is that it was a grudging reaction to Robert R. Young's quote that "a hog can cross the country without changing trains -- but you can't." 

Robert R. Young - C&O > NYC


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## MARC Rider (Oct 10, 2020)

Hey, what about Supertrain?


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## Palmland (Oct 10, 2020)

railiner said:


> The Chief and the Super Chief carried thru sleeper's at different times, and from different roads....
> In the East, the New York Central, Pennsylvania, and Baltimore and Ohio carried various thru sleepers with various 'western' roads.
> I don't believe the Jersey Central ever participated in any of this. You need to peruse some old Official Railway Guides to fully research this, or maybe find some info here...
> 
> ...



According to my 1954 OGR, the PRR had two daily sleepers to LA. One was via the UP City of Los Angeles and the other on the Super Chief, The NYC
had the same two a day service to LA on those trains.

The NYC and PRR also both had a one a day sleeper to San Francisco. Each road alternated each day between routing via UP- San Francisco Overland and the CZ. 

The B&O had daily service from Washington via the Super Chief. That makes a total of 7 sleepers through Chicago each day to the west coast.

My first trip to New York as a kid was on the B&O. All B&O trains operated on a Reading/CNJ routing from Philadelpia to Jersey City. Then connecting buses provided the transfer via ferry to different parts of Manhattan. Not speedy, but certainly pleasant. The west coast and Texas sleepers all originated in Washington. Tough to compete with the PRR and NYC. The Jersey City terminal has been renovated and as part of Liberty State Park with a small ferry to Manhattan. Sadly, tracks are no where to be seen.

Liberty State Park


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## bms (Oct 11, 2020)

Palmland said:


> According to my 1954 OGR, the PRR had two daily sleepers to LA. One was via the UP City of Los Angeles and the other on the Super Chief, The NYC
> had the same two a day service to LA on those trains.
> 
> The NYC and PRR also both had a one a day sleeper to San Francisco. Each road alternated each day between routing via UP- San Francisco Overland and the CZ.
> ...



Did any of those through sleepers depart from the same Chicago station where they arrived? I'm guessing most of them had to be moved to a different station in the city.


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## railiner (Oct 11, 2020)

bms said:


> Did any of those through sleepers depart from the same Chicago station where they arrived? I'm guessing most of them had to be moved to a different station in the city.


The PRR and Burlington shared Union Station...so the CZ sleeper didn't have to change stations on the days it ran on PRR...


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## Palmland (Oct 11, 2020)

railiner said:


> The PRR and Burlington shared Union Station...so the CZ sleeper didn't have to change stations on the days it ran on PRR...


And starting one year later, in 1955, the UP started using the Milwaukee Road into Union Station for their Chicago connection. Prior to that it was the C&NW station.

Can you imagine Amtrak making all those switch moves? I wonder if many through passengers went into the city for lunch and returned to their arrival station to find their sleeper was gone. Probably most did the Parmelee Transfer first!


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## railiner (Oct 11, 2020)

Palmland said:


> And starting one year later, in 1955, the UP started using the Milwaukee Road into Union Station for their Chicago connection. Prior to that it was the C&NW station.
> 
> Can you imagine Amtrak making all those switch moves? I wonder if many through passengers went into the city for lunch and returned to their arrival station to find their sleeper was gone. Probably most did the Parmelee Transfer first!


I wasn’t sure if they were still running the thru sleepers when the “City” fleet switched from the North Western to the Milwaukee...


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## Palmland (Oct 12, 2020)

Good point, railliner. It looks like 1957 was the last year for west coast and southwest through sleepers. I remember we took my father to the airport for an overseas flight and I saw my first 707 a year or two later. Things went downhill fast from there.


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## railiner (Oct 12, 2020)

Palmland said:


> Good point, railliner. It looks like 1957 was the last year for west coast and southwest through sleepers. I remember we took my father to the airport for an overseas flight and I saw my first 707 a year or two later. Things went downhill fast from there.


1957? So then there must have been a year or two of the thru sleepers between the PRR and Milwaukee at Union Station..


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## Palmland (Oct 12, 2020)

railiner said:


> 1957? So then there must have been a year or two of the thru sleepers between the PRR and Milwaukee at Union Station..



And the answer is........

It is remarkable that as late as '57 all seven were still operating, two to the City of LA, three to the Super Chief, one to the City of SF, one to CZ (not shown). But that was the end.

That same OGR also lists airlines. American had two non stop, New York to LA named the Royal Coachman on their 'DC-7 Flagship'. The morning flight left at 9 am and arrived at 3:15 pst with a fare of $99. Believe I'll stick with the Broadway and Super Chief.


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## jiml (Oct 13, 2020)

I love the history lessons!


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## railiner (Oct 13, 2020)

Having an OGR from the streamliner era is a real educational experience...if anyone doesn't have at least one, I would strongly recommend searching the internet (ebay?) for a copy....


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## jis (Oct 13, 2020)

What I find somewhat illustrative is that even in the heyday of train travel there were less than a dozen through cars running coast to coast. Compare that with what amounts to an armada of non stop flights operating coast to coast. Trains really shine for serving the little towns and villages en route better, but cannot generally complete with planes on end to end LD travel. Somehow those that keep trying to diss trains quoting end to end numbers need to change their thinking and paradigm to make much sense.


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## jiml (Oct 13, 2020)

railiner said:


> Having an OGR from the streamliner era is a real educational experience...if anyone doesn't have at least one, I would strongly recommend searching the internet (ebay?) for a copy....


Hard to find in both good condition and at a reasonable price. There's a reason they bring top dollar at hobbyist shows.


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## sttom (Oct 13, 2020)

It also must be said that the price of travel prior to the Jet Age was significantly more expensive, relatively speaking, than it is now. Taking the train cross country in a berth would run you the equivalent of $1600 round trip in a tourist berth with a "discounted" coach rate to Chicago and a flight would cost the equivalent of $4000 in 1940/late 30s prices. And a good wage for a person was $28,000 after inflation. A discounted fare would run the average person 6% of their income and 2 days travel each way. Now a days, I can fly from Oakland to New Jersey for ~$600 or about 1.5% of my annual income (pre COVID at least) and the flights combined are less than a day all together. So not only is travel far faster than it used to be, it is also far more accessible, financially at least, to more people than it used to be.


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 13, 2020)

jiml said:


> I love the history lessons!



I do as well. When's the quiz, Professors?


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## Cal (Feb 18, 2021)

Okay, first off, please don't compare Amtrak to Indian Pacific. The Indian Pacific is a true land cruise for tourists, and has funding (or else it wouldn't be able to run). Amtrak is government subsidized, public transportation.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 20, 2021)

railiner said:


> That is the biggest obstacle to this proposal. Then there is the matter of maintenance and servicing. The longer the run, the more complications from any problems.
> I don't think there are enough potential through passenger's to make this really worth the effort...it would be more like a "vanity" thing...having a transcontinental train.
> 
> As a passenger, I used to welcome the change of equipment in Chicago. Back in the days of Heritage trains to Vista-Dome trains, and now from Viewliner/Amfleet to Superliner. A change of scenery in the train itself was welcome variety on a long trip...



And yet,

Texas Eagle CHI-LAX run time: 65 hr, 50 min

Capitol Limited run time: 17 hr, 40 min
Southwest Chief run time: 43 hr, 10 min
Total: 60 hr, 50 min
Add in the 6 hr, 5 min connection time as service time and you get 66 hr, 55 min

Texas Eagle CHI-LAX distance: 2728 miles

Capitol Limited+Southwest Chief = 780+2265 = 3045 miles

So 3045 miles is too much trouble but 2728 miles isn't a problem. 66 hr, 55 min would have too many issues for compounding lateness but 65 hr, 50 min, knock yourself out! Sure, makes sense.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 20, 2021)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> And yet,
> 
> Texas Eagle CHI-LAX run time: 65 hr, 50 min
> 
> ...


Uh, the CHI-LA "Texas Eagle" is really two cars from the CHI-San Antonio Texas Eagle that are switched on to the New Orleans - LA Sunset Limited. 421/422 is not really a 2700 mile long distance train that serves Chicago and Los Angeles.


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## Cal (Feb 20, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Uh, the CHI-LA "Texas Eagle" is really two cars from the CHI-San Antonio Texas Eagle that are switched on to the New Orleans - LA Sunset Limited. 421/422 is not really a 2700 mile long distance train that serves Chicago and Los Angeles.


Yes, but those two cars are operated as a normal long distance train for the entire trip


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## jiml (Feb 21, 2021)

Doesn't the significant "dwell time" at San Antonio and the indirect route of the TE skew the above comparison?


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## toddinde (Feb 21, 2021)

For years, I have been intrigued of a coast to coast route starting in Washington and ending in LA. This would be an amazing train, and I believe it could be marketed as one of the worlds great rail journeys. Essentially, the Crescent would continue to run with Viewliners from New York to New Orleans, but Superliners would originate in Washington as this new service. The Crescent's Viewlners could be attached to the rear of this new service. The Superliners would split in Birmingham and create a new route through to Fort Worth. At Fort Worth connections could be made to the Texas Eagle and the through cars from Chicago to LA on the Eagle could get added to this new train. The train would continue to west Texas via Midland and Odessa joining the Sunset Route just east of El Paso. It would then continue on the Sunset Route to LA. This would be a three night, coast to coast run. It would also make the Texas Eagle's through Chicago-LA cars a two night run. Not only would this improve service and open up new markets, it could be marketed as one of the epic train journeys in the world.


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## toddinde (Feb 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> Okay, first off, please don't compare Amtrak to Indian Pacific. The Indian Pacific is a true land cruise for tourists, and has funding (or else it wouldn't be able to run). Amtrak is government subsidized, public transportation.


I think that rail passenger service has traditionally been able to be all things to all customers in a way that no other mode can. The pre-Amtrak California Zephyr is a prime example of that. Land cruise: Yes. Transportation: Yes. It doesn't need to be an either or. But I am with you; I totally oppose turning the long distance trains into a land cruise like the Canadian. Amtrak is transportation for rural America and it needs to be.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> Doesn't the significant "dwell time" at San Antonio and the indirect route of the TE skew the above comparison?



The dwell time in San Antonio is 9:55pm-2:45am (4 hr, 50 min). Assuming the TE didn't dwell at all and the CL/SWC didn't stop at all in Chicago (big assumptions), that would put the run time of the TE at 61 hrs flat and the CL/SWC combo at 60 hr, 50 min so they're practically comparable time wise. the CL/SWC is longer by 317 miles but is that really a big deal once you're up to 2728 miles? If you want to say trains running three days is too long that's fine but then the TE to LA is too long. Just stop it in San Antonio and force the transfer to the Sunset Limited (maybe have a through branch starting in Dallas for the Texas people).


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## jiml (Feb 21, 2021)

toddinde said:


> For years, I have been intrigued of a coast to coast route starting in Washington and ending in LA. This would be an amazing train, and I believe it could be marketed as one of the worlds great rail journeys. Essentially, the Crescent would continue to run with Viewliners from New York to New Orleans, but Superliners would originate in Washington as this new service. The Crescent's Viewlners could be attached to the rear of this new service. The Superliners would split in Birmingham and create a new route through to Fort Worth. At Fort Worth connections could be made to the Texas Eagle and the through cars from Chicago to LA on the Eagle could get added to this new train. The train would continue to west Texas via Midland and Odessa joining the Sunset Route just east of El Paso. It would then continue on the Sunset Route to LA. This would be a three night, coast to coast run. It would also make the Texas Eagle's through Chicago-LA cars a two night run. Not only would this improve service and open up new markets, it could be marketed as one of the epic train journeys in the world.


That would definitely qualify as an "experiential" train if done properly. My simpler proposal would be to just extend the Sunset Limited to Washington or the Crescent to Los Angeles - either would work. (A Superliner Crescent would terminate in WAS, not NYP of course.) I've always liked the Texas Eagle as a standalone daily train from Chicago to LA.


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## Qapla (Feb 21, 2021)

Another option could be to go from DC to Cincinnati following the Cardinal route then from Cincinnati to St Louis on CSX tracks where it could follow River Runner route to Kansas City and follow the SWC route to LA


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> That would definitely qualify as an "experiential" train if done properly. My simpler proposal would be to just extend the Sunset Limited to Washington or the Crescent to Los Angeles.......




That was essentially the trip I did back in 1975 from Los Angeles to Washington although it was just a thru car. A Transcontinental Sleeper handled on the Sunset...then transferred to the Southern Crescent in New Orleans. You could occupied the car overnight in New Orleans as your 'Hotel' and spend the evening out on the town!

But what a disappointment when I boarded the thru car in LA! If anyone can remember what were referred to as 'Lexan Lovelies'.....the Lexan window of my Roomette was so scratched and faded it was almost opaque! On the Sunset I spent the day riding in an xSanta Fe High-level Coach and then on the Southern Crescent....an xWabash Dome Car. (In the B&W photo below at New Orleans is the Dome on the right and thru Sleeper on the left)


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## Palmetto (Feb 21, 2021)

I did the LA-NY sleeper as well, but started in San Antonio. The nice part about it was that your sleeper was your hotel while in New Orleans doing the town. Southern Railway still ran the train between New Orleans and D.C. with its own dining car, lounge and sleepers.


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## railiner (Feb 21, 2021)

During that same era, the "All Amtrak" transcontinental thru sleeper from New York ran daily to Los Angeles via Kansas City. It was a whole day faster, too...





__





The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)






www.timetables.org


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## Cal (Feb 21, 2021)

toddinde said:


> I think that rail passenger service has traditionally been able to be all things to all customers in a way that no other mode can. The pre-Amtrak California Zephyr is a prime example of that. Land cruise: Yes. Transportation: Yes. It doesn't need to be an either or. But I am with you; I totally oppose turning the long distance trains into a land cruise like the Canadian. Amtrak is transportation for rural America and it needs to be.


Actually I'm all for making Amtrak (at least for sleepers) more of a land cruise. Maybe not completely, but more of. 

But they shouldn't compare a tourist attraction full land cruise to the current only-transportation Amtrak


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## railiner (Feb 22, 2021)

railiner said:


> During that same era, the "All Amtrak" transcontinental thru sleeper from New York ran daily to Los Angeles via Kansas City. It was a whole day faster, too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just took another look at that very early Amtrak timetable. The westbound schedule, with its tight connection between the National Limited, and the then seasonal Chief, allowed an incredible, only two night journey, from coast to coast. The Chief, allowed a one night only journey from Chicago to Los Angeles.


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## Larry H. (Feb 22, 2021)

How about considering a thru train that doesn't go the way all the trains do today. Much of the midwest is lacking rail service as it stands now. Why not a train leaving the east in N.Y or Washington though St. Louis and either connecting with the Chief in KC and perhaps on to a connecting point with the California Zephyr.


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## railiner (Feb 22, 2021)

Larry H. said:


> How about considering a thru train that doesn't go the way all the trains do today. Much of the midwest is lacking rail service as it stands now. Why not a train leaving the east in N.Y or Washington though St. Louis and either connecting with the Chief in KC and perhaps on to a connecting point with the California Zephyr.


How about extending the Cardinal from Indianapolis thru St. Louis, Kansas City, Denver, Laramie, Ogden, Boise, and Portland to Seattle?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 22, 2021)

railiner said:


> How about extending the Cardinal from Indianapolis thru St. Louis, Kansas City, Denver, Laramie, Ogden, Boise, and Portland to Seattle?



Got any money? You're not taking any of my tax money for it.


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## railiner (Feb 22, 2021)

What if I include a restored Pennsylvania Limited, featuring thru service between 30th Street Station and Chicago?


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## Palmland (Feb 22, 2021)

railiner said:


> What if I include a restored Pennsylvania Limited, featuring thru service between 30th Street Station and Chicago?



I still think Amtrak should consider rerouting the Capitol via Philadelphia. It would add about 1'45" to total time Washington to Chicago over the present route. No additional equipment would be required as it now lays over in DC almost a full day. It would of course have to be single level. It should swap its superliners with the Cardinals single level equipment and, with the additional VII cars, it should be doable. This provides a single seat ride to Chicago 7 days a week for Baltimore, Wilmington, and Philly; and it provides a second daily service Philly to Pittsburgh that the state wants.

I think the Cardinal would benefit from the Superliner equipment as it takes the highly scenic route through the New River Gorge and along the Ohio, especially if the schedule could be modified to provide better times at those locations. I just read an article in the NY Times with the headline 'Meet America's Newest National Park' - the New River Gorge.


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## west point (Feb 23, 2021)

SOU RR as I understand kept 2 spare sleepers in New Orleans just to substitute for a broken down sleeper off or onto the Sunset ? They would then ferry the sleeper to Atlanta's car shop.


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## bms (Feb 24, 2021)

I don't see the big advantage of a through train. It's not hard to connect in Chicago from the Capitol, Lake Shore, etc., to the Empire Builder, Zephyr and such. If you're spending three nights on a train, the few hours off the train in Chicago are welcome.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 24, 2021)

bms said:


> I don't see the big advantage of a through train. It's not hard to connect in Chicago from the Capitol, Lake Shore, etc., to the Empire Builder, Zephyr and such. If you're spending three nights on a train, the few hours off the train in Chicago are welcome.



Have you ever missed a connection before? And if the train has a wait in Chicago, I'm sure they will let passengers off the train for a little bit like they do now on extended stops. But at least if you're delayed you're not stuck a whole day in Chicago (not saying Chicago is a bad place to get stuck since I love Chicago but...)


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## railiner (Feb 24, 2021)

There is a limit on how long they would delay a train, even a "thru" train..l
Say for example, the Southwest Chief and Capitol Limited were made into a thru train. If the Eastbound Chief were seriously delayed, say 12 hours, instead of delaying all those booked on the Capitol originating in Chicago, or transferring to it from other trains, some of whom might have further connections downline; there is a good possibility it would make sense to annul the Chief when it reaches Chicago, and cut in an 'on time' train there, to continue to Washington. In such case, those 'misconnecting' passengers could be re-accommodated upon reaching Chicago. It would depend perhaps, on inconveniencing the fewest number of passengers.


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## Larry H. (Feb 24, 2021)

The Cardinal route which I am sure is beautiful, but if your talking a though train for a more timely trip then a less out of the way route would be better to me. And the idea of simply staying with Chicago does nothing to improve the expansion of service a different route would provide. I still think a route that includes St. Louis (which is centrally located), would be the best, then perhaps a set of western cities not now having any but one directional choice would be the best. Feeder lines of 700 miles then could connect a lot of people who now are ignored. I am no expert at routing in the old days, but I think the Frisco may have had a different set of cities going west?


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 24, 2021)

Larry H. said:


> The Cardinal route which I am sure is beautiful, but if your talking a though train for a more timely trip then a less out of the way route would be better to me. And the idea of simply staying with Chicago does nothing to improve the expansion of service a different route would provide. I still think a route that includes St. Louis (which is centrally located), would be the best, then perhaps a set of western cities not now having any but one directional choice would be the best. Feeder lines of 700 miles then could connect a lot of people who now are ignored. I am no expert at routing in the old days, but I think the Frisco may have had a different set of cities going west?


Re-Starting the National Ltd. thru St. Louis to Kansas City is a good idea!


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 24, 2021)

Also SL East or some train between New Orleans and Florida to give some sort of southern path across the country would definitely be useful. Think about traveling between New Orleans and Florida now or between Texas and Florida or California and Florida. Wouldn't it be more direct and theoretically faster to just go straight across the southern US?


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## jis (Feb 25, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Re-Starting the National Ltd. thru St. Louis to Kansas City is a good idea!


The PIP for Cardinal had a proposal for splitting the Cardinal at Indy sending one section on to St Louis and Kansas City, while the other section continued to Chicago. Other than some issues about finding enough rolling stock to achieve that, the overall assessment was positive.


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## Willbridge (Feb 25, 2021)

jis said:


> The PIP for Cardinal had a proposal for splitting the Cardinal at Indy sending one section on to St Louise and Kansas City, while the other section continued to Chicago. Other than some issues about finding enough rolling stock to achieve that, the overall assessment was positive.


Indianapolis<>St. Louis is a good example of a corridor within a long-distance route making sense. The _Cardinal _would provide an AM westbound and PM eastbound schedule and a trainset of Midwest corridor equipment could run AM eastbound and PM westbound. Of course, it would work better if the Cardinal stayed close enough to schedule so that a lengthy dwell in Indy would not become necessary. And then there's the matter of arriving in the basement of the Indianapolis station...


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## railiner (Feb 25, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Indianapolis<>St. Louis is a good example of a corridor within a long-distance route making sense. The _Cardinal _would provide an AM westbound and PM eastbound schedule and a trainset of Midwest corridor equipment could run AM eastbound and PM westbound. Of course, it would work better if the Cardinal stayed close enough to schedule so that a lengthy dwell in Indy would not become necessary. And then there's the matter of arriving in the basement of the Indianapolis station...


The former Amtrak National Limited was a great route that ran from one end of its run to the the other, linking at least 7 potential "corridors" together. Unfortunately, when it ran, the portion from Pittsburg to St. Louis was covered solely by itself...only East of Harrisburg were there more than 2 daily trains.


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## IndyLions (Feb 25, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Of course, it would work better if the Cardinal stayed close enough to schedule so that a lengthy dwell in Indy would not become necessary.



I think the on-time performance of the Cardinal is pretty good. No data to back that up, just hearing the whistle pretty consistently at the same times 6 days a week...


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## IndyLions (Feb 25, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> And then there's the matter of arriving in the basement of the Indianapolis station...



Indy is a nice city. That hellhole of a station environment is a disgrace.


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## Cal (Feb 25, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Indy is a nice city. That hellhole of a station environment is a disgrace.


Same could be said for so many cities that Amtrak serves...


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 26, 2021)

jis said:


> The PIP for Cardinal had a proposal for splitting the Cardinal at Indy sending one section on to St Louis and Kansas City, while the other section continued to Chicago. Other than some issues about finding enough rolling stock to achieve that, the overall assessment was positive.



PIP's. Wasn't that 2010???


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## MARC Rider (Feb 27, 2021)

The Southwest Chief -- "Chief" from from the French word "chef," which is derived from the Latin "kaput" (meaning "head")
The Capitol Limited -- the word "capitol" is derived form the Latin "kaput," too!

Thus, these two trains really should be the same train, and should be run through from Washington to LA!


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## jis (Feb 28, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Thus, these two trains really should be the same train, and should be run through from Washington to LA!


They did for a brief period when you could stay in your Sleeper accommodation through Chicago.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 1, 2021)

jis said:


> They did for a brief period when you could stay in your Sleeper accommodation through Chicago.


Right. I remember once riding the Capitol during that era, and the announcement when we arrived in Chicago for people who were staying on board. I'm not clear, though, whether the entire Capitol Ltd. consist became the Super Chief, or whether they switched out one through sleeper car to the LA bound train.


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## 20th Century Rider (Mar 1, 2021)

Palmetto said:


> The idea has come up before, and it gets all sorts of negative reactions. One problem is that Superliners cannot go into Boston nor New York, so there goes some ideas that have been put forth. Although not an insurmountable situation, the SW Chief and Zephyr would require a back up move out of Chicago Union Station to continue east of Chicago. They have backed into CUS in the past when arriving from the east, but not sure if they still do. Run through would be an easy matter, though, for the Empire Builder. The best chance for coast-to-coast service was the National Limited to St. Louis, and continuing on the Texas Eagle/Sunset route to L.A. IIRC, some of the rail has been pulled up between Pittsburg and Indianapolis, so that is no longer a possibility..


Hmmm... so make the Capitol Limited a through train to the West Coast! Superliner works! And it could slide right through the CHI station in the corner there where the EB usually slides through. Neat idea!

Sooo... if they upgrade all coach and sleeper services to a higher standard... this train will go coast to coast fully booked every day of the year. What's holding you back Amtrak???

Your clientele is chomping at the bit for a transcon ride with a little class and dignity. All the infrastructure is set up and ready to go... all it takes is a little inspiration at the management level... to take advantage of all the enthusiasm that's pent up after all this covid stuff and all the costs cutting which didn't do what it was supposed to do...

Amtrak... your cost cutting is reducing your revenue! Get over it!


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## jis (Mar 1, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Right. I remember once riding the Capitol during that era, and the announcement when we arrived in Chicago for people who were staying on board. I'm not clear, though, whether the entire Capitol Ltd. consist became the Super Chief, or whether they switched out one through sleeper car to the LA bound train.


The entire consist.


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