# New AGR policy on routing?



## GoldenSpike (May 7, 2013)

Last night I called AGR to modify a rewards trip.

The choices shown on Arrow for Naperville, IL (NPV - outside of Chicago) to Tacoma (TAC) are:

NPV-CHI-PDX-TAC EB – Cascade.

NPV-CHI-SAC-TAC CZ - CS

NPV-LAX-TAC SWC - CS

I opted for the LAX option. The agent said I couldn’t do it. I said it shows in Arrow as an option.

She said the only option on reward points is “*the most direct routing*.”

She stated the ruling came out a month ago.

Anybody have a similar problem or hear of this new policy?


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## TVRM610 (May 7, 2013)

What is strange is that the LAX seems like it could be argued as the "most direct" since it uses less trains.


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## MrFSS (May 7, 2013)

Did you try Rule #1, hang up and call back and see if another agent will book it.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 7, 2013)

GoldenSpike said:


> I opted for the LAX option. The agent said I couldnt do it. I said it shows in Arrow as an option. She said the only option on reward points is *the most direct routing*. She stated the ruling came out a month ago. Anybody have a similar problem or hear of this new policy?


Yes. Several times.

Supposedly you can take it up with _*AGR Insider*_ on Flyertalk and she'll set them straight.

I have no idea if or how this actually works in a practical sense, but that's what I've been told here on AU.



MrFSS said:


> Did you try Rule #1, hang up and call back and see if another agent will book it.


I actually received the same response three times in a row, including after escalating to a "supervisor," whatever that means.

The honest truth is that the AGR reservations staff doesn't really care if you get the routing you want. They don't ride Amtrak's LD network themselves (if you don't believe me ask them) and they probably don't care if you ever ride Amtrak again for as long as you live. Your customer satisfaction doesn't determine their job satisfaction and your experience when calling them has little if any bearing on their salary or their upward mobility. Which is why you sometimes need to _sell them_ on the idea of taking the time and effort to actually help you.

MrFSS has the right idea but when dealing with a loyalty program as opaque and indifferent as AGR it can take a lot more than an extra call or two to get what you want. I would suggest folks who are getting fed up with AGR's unpublished rules try *reading this story* from Gary Leff for some ideas on how you can sell otherwise indifferent employees on the concept of helping a customer.


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## GoldenSpike (May 7, 2013)

MrFSS - Saving Rule #1 for later today. In the meantime I was hoping to learn if others are also facing this.


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## Ryan (May 7, 2013)

I would also consider a FOIA request that tells Amtrak what you were told and asks them for the policy document that contains it.

Either a) we get the rule and all get smarter or b) we get an official statement that there is no such policy.


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## Rail Freak (May 7, 2013)

Which route did the agent want you to take?


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## Anderson (May 7, 2013)

*sighs*
How can I help with the FOIA request? Also, let me go ahead and say that I _really_ wish someone at Amtrak would come down on AGR for having "mystery rules".


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## Ispolkom (May 7, 2013)

Rules? AGR has rules? When did this start?


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## Devil's Advocate (May 7, 2013)

I have already confirmed with multiple AGR reservation agents that there is no actual book of official rules from which to settle disputes or resolve inconsistencies. I'm not sure if this is intended to foil FOIA requests or if it's just a lack of effort on AGR's part or what.


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## sambdking (May 7, 2013)

This is stinky news, I was hoping to use AGR points to go Chicago to LAX, but I wanted to go via EB and CS, NOT SWC.


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## Tumbleweed (May 7, 2013)

A couple weeks ago, I was able to go WPB-FAR via NYP instead of WAS....the AGR agent didn't hesitate a bit when I asked for it....I would sure call and request what you want....


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## the_traveler (May 7, 2013)

"Direct Route" ..........

ERROR ............ Does not compute ............ ERROR!  :giggle:


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## Devil's Advocate (May 7, 2013)

If any of us really gave a damn about direct routing we wouldn't be taking Amtrak in the first place. Half the AGR folks I talk to can't seem to understand that and the other half act like I'm trying to pull a fast one on them. It would be so much nicer if could just call up and say "I want to travel East along the Empire Builder route..." and have them figure out a way to make it happen using the same zone map they publish for their members. Instead we start some silly runaround regarding which destination I want followed by the helpful advice that even though the train I want goes there I can't use that route to reach it. Ugh.


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## Ispolkom (May 7, 2013)

sambdking said:


> This is stinky news, I was hoping to use AGR points to go Chicago to LAX, but I wanted to go via EB and CS, NOT SWC.


It isn't news. It's the original poster mistakenly believing what an AGR agent says. AGR don't need no stinkin' rules, and I doubt there is anything for a FOIA request.

AGR "rules" are operative for as long as you are on the phone with the agent who spouts them. The first time I heard *GoldenSpike's *"rule" was five years ago, and I've booked many long-distance trips in contradiction to it in the the years since.

Name a "rule," and there's an exception. No overnight stays, except for *yarrow*, who has managed two on one trip. No loop-hole trips, except for my five-night, one-zone Houston-LA-Portland-St. Paul trip last January. Personally, I can't see why people still believe in these rules, since a rule that doesn't always apply isn't much of a rule.

Sure, you can imagine that there are secret, unpublished AGR rules that are subject to change without notice, and are applied by agents who have only a hazy understanding of them, but you can get just exactly the same results by imagining that every time you call AGR, you make a saving throw against your Charisma. You make the throw, you get to book your trip. You fail, no go.

I prefer the latter theory, and if I don't get the results I want, I wait, build up Charisma, and call back. It works for me, and appeals to my misspent youth. YMMV, of course.


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## Nathanael (May 7, 2013)

I can't figure out what they mean by "direct route".

Wait, I may see what's going on.

You can actually catch the CZ from Naperville (not through Chicago), which means you can do CZ then CS (two trains) which is shorter than SWC then CS (two trains). You end up catching the same Coast Starlight (sigh), but you waste time crossing the mountains rather than wasting time winding along the Coast Route. It may be a prohibition on getting gratuitous train time.

Try scheduling the trip from Mendota. The SWC stops there and the CZ doesn't, which means that the SWC route will now have fewer segments than the CZ trip.  See if they'll accept that.

Alternatively, explain that you absolutely cannot leave Naperville before 3 PM due to an important appointment, and see whether they'll give you the SWC routing then...


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## AlanB (May 7, 2013)

Ryan said:


> I would also consider a FOIA request that tells Amtrak what you were told and asks them for the policy document that contains it.
> Either a) we get the rule and all get smarter or b) we get an official statement that there is no such policy.


One doesn't need to make the effort of a FOIA request. A simple post on FT to AGR Insider will get you the correct answer.


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## AlanB (May 7, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I have already confirmed with multiple AGR reservation agents that there is no actual book of official rules from which to settle disputes or resolve inconsistencies. I'm not sure if this is intended to foil FOIA requests or if it's just a lack of effort on AGR's part or what.


That's not confirmation of anything! An agent who does know of the manual isn't necessarily likely to tell you about it. And an agent who is making up their own rules is definitely not going to tell you about it. And many people simply don't pay attention or even remember half of what they were taught during their training. And as a computer consultant who has to train people, I can confirm that last point. It's one reason that I always make people do the work, while I watch & guide them over the their shoulder. If they watch me do it, and I already know who to do it, their retention rate goes way down. If they have to do it, the odds are better that they will remember.

And I've asked OBS on trains about the Blue Book and I've been told that it doesn't exist, until I produce it for them.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 7, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > I have already confirmed with multiple AGR reservation agents that there is no actual book of official rules from which to settle disputes or resolve inconsistencies. I'm not sure if this is intended to foil FOIA requests or if it's just a lack of effort on AGR's part or what.
> ...


Calm down Alan.

If you have actual evidence of a real manual then of course I want to hear about.


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## AlanB (May 7, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...


Again, I've had Amtrak employees tell me that there is no such thing as the Blue Book. That is until I pull out my PDF copy of it, at which point they try back peddling and other interesting things. The fact that you've had AGR agents tell you that no such book exists is not evidence that it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying that I know of the existence of an AGR manual. I'm also not saying that I know that it doesn't exist. I'm simply saying that your proof isn't proof of anything at all. No employee is going to admit to the existence of something that could prove them wrong, when they've just told you that they can't do something you want.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 8, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Alan, the idea of having "proof" of something *not* existing is a logical fallacy. I never claimed I had proof. I said I had *confirmation* the book didn't exist.


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## jis (May 8, 2013)

I think the point is that getting "confirmation" from a bunch of agents does not really establish that such a book does not exist. I suspect that is what Alan was trying to communicate.


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## calwatch (May 8, 2013)

On another thread, I mentioned I did a broad FOIA request for all rules, regulations, and policies governing AGR, and was quoting a bill of several hundred dollars for staff time. This is likely the case because there are probably email announcements or paper memos that were sent to staff or to management which were probably forgotten several years ago.

Overall I would be happy if they just allowed you to book award travel without the phone call. Tie it into the main reservation system. If you want to press your luck with a phone representative, more power to you, but we are talking about trips that pop up in ARROW without any fuss. With e-ticketing on buses in California, they should also allow e-ticketing for bus connections as well.


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## Ryan (May 8, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > I would also consider a FOIA request that tells Amtrak what you were told and asks them for the policy document that contains it.
> ...


It'll get one person the right answer to one trip.

I'd much rather see whatever rules/policies/manuals see the light of day so that we're all aware of what we're entitled to and not entitled to.

Not to mention, when you call in an an agent incorrectly says "No.", it's a lot easier to refer to "Paragraph A-4.1.3 of Policy Memo 27" than it is to say "AGR_Insider over on Flyertalk told me that it was OK the last time I booked that trip".


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## Devil's Advocate (May 8, 2013)

jis said:


> I think the point is that getting "confirmation" from a bunch of agents does not really establish that such a book does not exist. I suspect that is what Alan was trying to communicate.


I agree that nothing AGR says over the phone is actual proof of anything. Even if there was a book it wouldn't really matter since quoting such a book wouldn't really change anything at all. If you choose to dispute an agent's decision they can simply decline to agree. There is no recourse but to keep calling back. For some folks stalker calling the reservations line is no bother, maybe it's even fun some, but for me it's very annoying and not something I enjoy in the slightest. I would prefer that AGR's website be updated so that it can book more than non-connecting coach tickets. Most of the bookings I want to make the website is completely helpless to create. If they can fix the website they can let go of their reservations crew for all I care. Even if the website booking rules are much more restrictive at least I'll never have to plead my case to another faceless cube jockey.


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## Ispolkom (May 8, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> For some folks stalker calling the reservations line is no bother, maybe it's even fun some, but for me it's very annoying and not something I enjoy in the slightest. I would prefer that AGR's website be updated so that it can book more than non-connecting coach tickets. Most of the bookings I want to make the website is completely helpless to create. If they can fix the website they can let go of their reservations crew for all I care. Even if the website booking rules are much more restrictive at least I'll never have to plead my case to another faceless cube jockey.


I disagree. The thing I find most annoying about airline frequent-flyer programs is the capacity controls. I much prefer AGR, where I know that I can get a sleeper as long as it's not a black-out date, and where I might be able to spend fewer points than I'd expected, or have a more interesting itinerary. Clearly I have a much greater fondness for chatting up agents than you, which is, of course, a personal preference.

I will agree that the Web site is useless. Since almost all of my AGR redemptions are in sleepers, I was amazed when I realized that I could actually book my Kansas City - St. Louis trip on line.

ETA: I also am fortunate that I can plan my travel long in advance, so it's easier to deal with AGR's peculiarities.


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## the_traveler (May 8, 2013)

I agree with Ispolkolm. With AGR, you know how many points your trip will be, no matter when you book it - as long as a seat or room is available. With the airlines, once the "low mile award seats" (and of course nobody knows that number) are gone, you can only get the "higher mile award seats"!

A good example of this is what my BlL had happen to him. He flew from the US to Europe, at a coach award level of 50,000 miles each way. He later had to change dates, and on that later date the 50,000 mile coach seats on the return flights were sold out. So he would have to pay 100,000 miles to fly coach on the return! Then he checked First Class, and the "fare" was only 80,000 miles! (Low mile award seats.) Guess which one he picked for his return? :blush:

How is an airline frequent flyer program less confusing than AGR when a coach seat cost 20,000 miles *MORE* than a First Class seat? :blush: On one AGR trip a few years ago, I got the last room on 2 of the 4 trains I took from coast to coast. And my award was the same amount as if I had booked it 10 months prior!

I'll take AGR any day!


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## AlanB (May 8, 2013)

jis said:


> I think the point is that getting "confirmation" from a bunch of agents does not really establish that such a book does not exist. I suspect that is what Alan was trying to communicate.


Precisely!

Thank you Jishnu.


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## AlanB (May 8, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Not to mention, when you call in an an agent incorrectly says "No.", it's a lot easier to refer to "Paragraph A-4.1.3 of Policy Memo 27" than it is to say "AGR_Insider over on Flyertalk told me that it was OK the last time I booked that trip".


That's easily solved, as 1) Insider can send out an update to all agents; 2) could simply take down your info and then prep an agent with the correct answers and have them call you; 3) simply tell you to tell any agent to call the head of AGR if they have any questions.


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## Ispolkom (May 9, 2013)

AlanB said:


> 3) simply tell you to tell any agent to call the head of AGR if they have any questions.


I'd love to use that line, but I cannot imagine how to do it without sounding like a DYKWIA. More power to you if you can pull it off.


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## crescent2 (May 9, 2013)

I don't think I could pull that off, either. Especially with my southern accent. I can imagine how it would go over.

This inconsistency and lack of rules drives me crazy(er)!


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## saxman (May 9, 2013)

I like the idea of booking from Mendota. Great idea!

Regarding AGR: It's a lot better than it was when it was in Canada. I was booked from WPB to BOS and wanted to change my booking to go from MIA to BOS, same train, same day. Well without telling me, the agent booked it on the next day, and said there was nothing available for my day. I told her just to give my old res back and she said that was not allowed. I'd have to take the later train. I ended up having to take the later train even though there were plenty of rooms available. Grrr!


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## VentureForth (May 14, 2013)

I wonder if FOIA would even apply with AGR as they are not technically run by Amtrak.


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## PRR 60 (May 14, 2013)

VentureForth said:


> I wonder if FOIA would even apply with AGR as they are not technically run by Amtrak.


They are run by Amtrak. Amtrak brought AGR in-house a couple of years ago.


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## the_traveler (May 14, 2013)

I remember a few years ago when AGR was in Canada, the AGR agent told me that "Amtrak now has these *NEW* sleepers with only roomettes on the upper level"!

You may have heard of these cars before. They're called trans-dorms! :wacko:

I wonder how often that agent rode on Superliners or even on Amtrak in the last 25 years? :blush:


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## Devil's Advocate (May 15, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> I wonder how often that agent rode on Superliners or even on Amtrak in the last 25 years?


I've asked a few agents who didn't seem to mind admitting they don't ride Amtrak often. From what I can deduce it would appear that from their perspective we're the odd ones for going out of our way to ride a train all over the place. I'm not sure they're specifically against us doing that, but neither do they seem to consider it normal and legitimate use of our points.


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