# "Lynchburger" Beats Projections



## WhoozOn1st (Dec 17, 2009)

From the Lynchburg News & Advance:

Amtrak's Lynchburg-Washington line beats projections

"Fares produced $414,000, which was 87 percent more than expected and almost enough to cover the cost of operating the train. Virginia has budgeted a monthly subsidy of $242,000 for the train, but only $48,000 of that will be needed for October, according to figures Page gave the transportation board."


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## Long Train Runnin' (Dec 17, 2009)

I guess this service was a little over do :lol: Thats good to see though!


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 17, 2009)

WhoozOn1st said:


> From the Lynchburg News & Advance:
> Amtrak's Lynchburg-Washington line beats projections
> 
> "Fares produced $414,000, which was 87 percent more than expected and almost enough to cover the cost of operating the train. Virginia has budgeted a monthly subsidy of $242,000 for the train, but only $48,000 of that will be needed for October, according to figures Page gave the transportation board."


This is good news indeed, perhaps the economy is improving and people are deciding that riding the train is the way to go!


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## Rafi (Dec 18, 2009)

This is great news for that route and makes one wonder what those numbers will be if/when the train is extended to Roanoke. Those of you who are familiar with the area know that Roanoke represents a huge untapped market for Amtrak, with an enormous amount of pent-up demand for rail service (flights in and out of Roanoke are very pricey).

Rafi


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2009)

This bodes well for more service. I think that Rafi posted in a thread here that folks were starting to talk about maybe trying to speed up the line's extension to Roanoke. Perhaps my dream of taking the train back to HokieTown may become a reality after all!

Edit: Speak of the devil and there he is!


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## rrdude (Dec 18, 2009)

Rafi said:


> This is great news for that route and makes one wonder what those numbers will be if/when the train is extended to Roanoke. Those of you who are familiar with the area know that Roanoke represents a huge untapped market for Amtrak, with an enormous amount of pent-up demand for rail service (flights in and out of Roanoke are very pricey).
> Rafi


No kidding Rafi! I canx a trip there, mostly BC of the cost of air fare, and it is a long drive from the DC area too. I'm sure it's years off, but Amtrak would do well to service this old community.........


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## wayman (Dec 18, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> This bodes well for more service. I think that Rafi posted in a thread here that folks were starting to talk about maybe trying to speed up the line's extension to Roanoke. Perhaps my dream of taking the train back to HokieTown may become a reality after all!
> Edit: Speak of the devil and there he is!


"Fast-tracking" (so to speak) the extension to Roanoke was already being discussed by Thanksgiving, according to Lynchburg Amtrak station personnel. The release of these official data can only encourage that!

Sadly, through skimming the News & Advance article comments I learned that Virginia Delegate Shannon Valentine from Lynchburg, who had been a vocal advocate for this train (against which there was some pretty vocal opposition, no state subsidies, etc), lost her re-election bid this November by 209 votes. I wonder if, had numbers demonstrating the overwhelming success of the new train been available sooner, that might have helped her... oh well.


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2009)

wayman said:


> HokieNav said:
> 
> 
> > This bodes well for more service. I think that Rafi posted in a thread here that folks were starting to talk about maybe trying to speed up the line's extension to Roanoke. Perhaps my dream of taking the train back to HokieTown may become a reality after all!
> ...


Was it you that posted that? If so, my apologizes for the misattribution.


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## railiner (Dec 18, 2009)

This is good news! But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!! 

Little Rock, Oklahoma City, Amarillo, ....well, you get the idea!!!!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 18, 2009)

Part of me wonders how much of this is "novelty" and whether or not the numbers will slide off in the coming months -- though with numbers these strong I imagine that the slide off won't be too great.

Overall, good job Lynchburger!!


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## transit54 (Dec 18, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Part of me wonders how much of this is "novelty" and whether or not the numbers will slide off in the coming months -- though with numbers these strong I imagine that the slide off won't be too great.
> Overall, good job Lynchburger!!


Interesting point. My experience in transit is that as time goes on, ridership builds. There's usually a lag after the start of service as people get used to the new service and make the decision to try it versus their standard way of commuting. Whether that holds true in an intercity rail context, I'm not sure. However, the large numbers could also be because of the holiday travel period - they probably estimated year-round ridership and divided it by 12, rather than adjust for the seasonal variations in ridership (though I could be wrong). However I don't think you'd see this strong a showing and then have it slide all the way back to the original projections, which are typically conservative anyway.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 18, 2009)

That was only for October, Holiday traffic would be non-existant I would think...


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## TampAGS (Dec 18, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> This bodes well for more service. I think that Rafi posted in a thread here that folks were starting to talk about maybe trying to speed up the line's extension to Roanoke. Perhaps my dream of taking the train back to HokieTown may become a reality after all!


I too eagerly hope for the opportunity to *ride the rails into Roanoke*!

 

Regardless, it is nice to see Lynchburg's facility receiving so many passengers, and during hours that aren't ridiculously late/early.


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## zoltan (Dec 18, 2009)

We might see a dip from the novelty effect wearing off, but I suspect that would only be a dip and it would recover, as it takes time for people to start organising their activities around trains, or even just getting to know a train exists.


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## Rafi (Dec 18, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > HokieNav said:
> ...


Yep, that was Will; not me. The only hard fact I've heard about a timeframe on a Roanoke extension is that the current contract indicates that it has to happen after the first 3 year "trial" of the Lynchburg run, and if Virginia decides (it's really Virginia's decision--not Amtrak's) to run that train to Roanoke, the runtime will have to be negotiated with NS. One would expect that NS will come hat in hand for infrastructure upgrades before they let a scheduled passenger train back on that segment. I can speak from first hand experience riding that line, however, and I can say that the runtime was very, very good between those cities even with the current infrastructure. So good that in my opinion, one could start running service tomorrow and be competitive with driving. Capacity may be another issue, however, and I can't speak to that authoritatively.

Personally, I hope VA sees these numbers and decides to start working on the Roanoke extension early. Perhaps what Will heard indicates that is, in fact the case, but I can't speak to it unfortunately. Amtrak can't even use the existing Greyhound run between Lynchburg Kemper Street Station and Roanoke as a guaranteed Thruway until Virginia formally requests it, which they have not.



> But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!!


Well, the ultimate "plan" is to have service to Bristol, whether that be this train on a different timetable, or a second frequency, perhaps Bristol to Charlottesville or Bristol to Richmond, or something along those lines. The consensus so far has been, however, that the first step was to get the train to Lynchburg. The next step (again, 3 years later) would be Roanoke, and then and only then would Bristol be considered (probably looking at 6-10 years from now). If Tennessee wants to pony up some cash to bring the train to Tennessee (I'd love to see it connect Nashville and Memphis), Amtrak will listen.

Rafi


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## wayman (Dec 18, 2009)

zoltan said:


> We might see a dip from the novelty effect wearing off, but I suspect that would only be a dip and it would recover, as it takes time for people to start organising their activities around trains, or even just getting to know a train exists.


I'd expect, all things being equal, to see high ridership for the first month (novelty), then a bit of a dip, then steady increase ... but with this having started in October, I suspect that any dip that we'd normally see for months two and three will be countered (in monthly statistics, though perhaps not dailies) by Thanksgiving and Christmas travel. So it's possible we won't see a dip here for the first few months, and it's possible that regular ridership will start to pick up soon after that ... I have cautious hopes that the monthly numbers won't really show a significant dip at all due to that fortunate timing.


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2009)

Rafi said:


> Well, the ultimate "plan" is to have service to Bristol


I assume that once to RNK that the route would pretty much follow 81?


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## wayman (Dec 18, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the ultimate "plan" is to have service to Bristol
> ...


I'd guess so. I know NS has a huge capacity improvement project on their line that roughly parallels I-81, in an effort to pull trucking traffic onto the rails. I-81 is way over-capacity with truckers, and it's a tremendously unsafe highway to begin with. In addition to being a good bet for profitability, the NS plan is also a public safety service for motorists. And perhaps with the increased capacity, they'll feel there's a slot or two for a passenger train sometime next decade when Amtrak/Virginia/Tennessee are ready to consider that.


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## TampAGS (Dec 18, 2009)

Rafi said:


> Personally, I hope VA sees these numbers and decides to start working on the Roanoke extension early. Perhaps what Will heard indicates that is, in fact the case, but I can't speak to it unfortunately. Amtrak can't even use the existing Greyhound run between Lynchburg Kemper Street Station and Roanoke as a guaranteed Thruway until Virginia formally requests it, which they have not.


Have any of our forum members from VA written their state representatives to voice their desire for such a service? Or better yet, for institution of direct rail service?


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## WhoozOn1st (Dec 18, 2009)

Pretty interesting discussion on a topic posted basically as a cheap excuse for saying "Lynchburger."


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 18, 2009)

railiner said:


> This is good news! But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!!
> 
> Little Rock, Oklahoma City, Amarillo, ....well, you get the idea!!!!


Of course the farther you extend the train the more chances for delays and the less chance of it being a reliable choice for Virginia residents to ride, and Virginia would probably drop its sponsorship.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 18, 2009)

wayman said:


> HokieNav said:
> 
> 
> > This bodes well for more service. I think that Rafi posted in a thread here that folks were starting to talk about maybe trying to speed up the line's extension to Roanoke. Perhaps my dream of taking the train back to HokieTown may become a reality after all!
> ...


She can always run again on a "I told you so" platform.


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## DET63 (Dec 18, 2009)

wayman said:


> Sadly, through skimming the News & Advance article comments I learned that Virginia Delegate Shannon Valentine from Lynchburg, who had been a vocal advocate for this train (against which there was some pretty vocal opposition, no state subsidies, etc), lost her re-election bid this November by 209 votes. I wonder if, had numbers demonstrating the overwhelming success of the new train been available sooner, that might have helped her... oh well.


Surprising that a Democrat lost an election in which many Democrats defeated Republican incumbents all around the country. Was the train one of the issues she campaigned on?


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## Rafi (Dec 18, 2009)

MikefromCrete said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > This is good news! But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!!
> ...


Luckily, extending the current train much past Roanoke will result in an overnight trip in either direction--something both Virginia and Amtrak want to avoid. So if we see service to Bristol or points west of there, I'm betting it'll most likely be in the form of a new frequency as part of the corridor, which will hopefully have a name by then (I couldn't call that a Northeast Regional train and keep a straight face). So if I had to speculate (and this is just that--speculation), you'd have the current train running Boston/SPG to Roanoke and then another train running Bristol to a major Amtrak gateway (ie connection) city. Richmond would be the obvious choice there, assuming something can be worked out with NS for the LYH-RVM segment. But this is really far into the future at this point. I think Roanoke is a suitable goal for now! 

Rafi


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## George Harris (Dec 18, 2009)

There was a study done for VaDOT several years ago on running a Bristol to Washingon service. The cost and ridership projections were such that it sank without a trace. That, despite having some very optomistic run time projections.


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## railiner (Dec 19, 2009)

MikefromCrete said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > This is good news! But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!!
> ...


Perhaps so, but by that logic for example, should North Carolina insist the Carolinian travel no further north than Rocky Mount, keeping it entirely within its borders?


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## afigg (Dec 23, 2009)

Came across a link to an editorial in the Roanoke Times titled "We need more options than cars" favoring returning passenger train service to Roanoke: http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/230173. Long distance bus to DC area was standing room only?? Anyway, if the extended Regional to Lynchburg is seen as a success, could result in political and public support for extending the service to Lynchburg sooner rather than later.

Anyone know what would likely be the expected travel time from Lynchburg to Roanoke? An hour? 90 minutes? Are the tracks between Lynchburg and Roanoke in good condition or would Virginia (maybe with some federal intercity rail funding) have to put a lot of money into upgrading them for acceptable speed passenger service? Of course, they would have to either restore or build a new train station which would probably take years for the studies, EISs, RFPs before work on constructing a new station could be started.


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## Amtrak839 (Dec 23, 2009)

afigg said:


> Of course, they would to either restore or build a new train station which would probably take years for the studies, EISs, RFPs before work on constructing a new station could be started.


One of Amtrak's ever popular double-wide trailers could probably be put in place while a proper station was being constructed. Several cities larger than Roanoke have had a double-wide trailer for a station at some point (I believe WAS was a trailer tucked behind Union Station for several years in the 80s during the renovation).


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 23, 2009)

afigg said:


> Came across a link to an editorial in the Roanoke Times titled "We need more options than cars" favoring returning passenger train service to Roanoke: http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/230173. Long distance bus to DC area was standing room only?? Anyway, if the extended Regional to Lynchburg is seen as a success, could result in political and public support for extending the service to Lynchburg sooner rather than later.
> Anyone know what would likely be the expected travel time from Lynchburg to Roanoke? An hour? 90 minutes? Are the tracks between Lynchburg and Roanoke in good condition or would Virginia (maybe with some federal intercity rail funding) have to put a lot of money into upgrading them for acceptable speed passenger service? Of course, they would to either restore or build a new train station which would probably take years for the studies, EISs, RFPs before work on constructing a new station could be started.



As to the time between Roanoke and Lynchburg, back in "the day' trains typically took about one hour and ten minutes. This from a 1957 Official Guide.


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## rrdude (Dec 23, 2009)

'K, I've been to the O Winston Link Museum in Roanoke, and HIGHLY recommend it to either a photo fan, a rail fan, or an art fan. Good stuff.

The Museum is in the old train station, along with the local CVB. I don't know enuff about the trackage in that area, (and am too lazy to investigate) but if it was feasible, why not "lease" a portion of that station? (or pay the museum staff to act almost as caretakers, open for pax only when trains arr or dpt?) The hotel is X the street, it's right downtown.... but I'm sure there is a good reason NOT to....

(and it looks like the NS shops, and i would guess storage tracks, are nearby)

"Experts" or expert wannabes, please advise............


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## wayman (Dec 23, 2009)

rrdude said:


> The Museum is in the old train station, along with the local CVB. I don't know enuff about the trackage in that area, (and am too lazy to investigate) but if it was feasible, why not "lease" a portion of that station? (or pay the museum staff to act almost as caretakers, open for pax only when trains arr or dpt?) The hotel is X the street, it's right downtown.... but I'm sure there is a good reason NOT to....


That isn't quite the arrangement in Manassas, but it sounds similar: a railroad museum/visitors center occupies part of the station, and an unstaffed waiting room another part. But if the Link museum occupies the entire building at present (requiring contraction of the museum), this would be a hard arrangement to set up. Sadly, I have never been to the Link museum myself, despite it being "just down the road" (well, 90 minutes) from my parents!!! And it's unlikely I'll have time to get there this trip.

The tracks from Lynchburg to Roanoke are in pretty good shape -- they carried the recent excursion trains to Roanoke for the NRHS fan-trips in November. Rafi got to ride the ROA-LYH section (which was non-revenue) and it seemed pretty good from his trip report (on his blog). NS will, of course, ask for some additional work just because they get a freebie out of it, but there's not much work needed it sounds like.

The big questions would appear to be (1) station facilities, (2) where to turn and park the trainset (not as easy as in Lynchburg, where we have a very convenient wye and especially with the just-built overnight track here!), (3) hiring crew (and they just hired maintenance and cleaning crews in Lynchburg!), (4) working out the schedule (and needed upgrades) with NS, and (5) additional Virginia funding. I'd be _shocked_ if any revenue train was operating here before early 2012, but if the LYH extension (I hope we can come up with a better name than "Lynchburger"!!!) keeps putting up good numbers for its first six months of operations, I won't be surprised if they kick the plans to extend to ROA up to high gear by this summer with a goal of early 2012 for service. Which is well ahead of the original "let the LYH extension run for three years (ie, September 2012), then _consider_ a ROA extension" concept.

A big wild card here is whether the new governor is pro-rail (or, if he's not as pro-rail as Kaine has been, if the numbers persuade him this is a good idea anyway).


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## Ispolkom (Dec 23, 2009)

wayman said:


> (I hope we can come up with a better name than "Lynchburger"!!!)


Fast Flying Lynchburger?


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## Rafi (Dec 23, 2009)

Just to add to the good content that's already been offered...

The run time between LYH and RNK was about an hour; most of the running speed was between 60 and 65 MPH when I rode. The only slow point, really, was on the reverse Y into LYH. But just because one anecdotal experience says it's an hour doesn't mean that a daily revenue train will be scheduled for an hour. We can't forget padding for freight congestion and other delays.

Regarding the Link museum. I have it on good authority that a trackside room in that building has been set aside (not at Amtrak's request) as a future waiting room with electric outlets, room for chairs, communications for Quik-Trak, etc. So a station facility does not seem to be an issue here either. Really, it's just up to Virginia to give the OK for NS negotiations, platform restoration in RNK, and looking into the possibility of having a stop in Bedford. As far as I can tell, the Bedford station has since been removed, so there may be some work to do there as well.

Rafi


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## wayman (Dec 23, 2009)

Rafi said:


> Regarding the Link museum. I have it on good authority that a trackside room in that building has been set aside (not at Amtrak's request) as a future waiting room with electric outlets, room for chairs, communications for Quik-Trak, etc. So a station facility does not seem to be an issue here either. Really, it's just up to Virginia to give the OK for NS negotiations, platform restoration in RNK, and looking into the possibility of having a stop in Bedford. As far as I can tell, the Bedford station has since been removed, so there may be some work to do there as well.


The Bedford station building became a fairly successful restaurant some years back -- at least fifteen years, I think? Within the past year, the station building/restaurant had a fire which destroyed most of the roof, but left enough of the building intact that it sounded like they would repair, rather than tear down, the structure; and it sounded like the restaurant's insurance would cover costs and the restaurant would re-open. But I haven't been following the story closely.


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## Rafi (Dec 23, 2009)

wayman said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding the Link museum. I have it on good authority that a trackside room in that building has been set aside (not at Amtrak's request) as a future waiting room with electric outlets, room for chairs, communications for Quik-Trak, etc. So a station facility does not seem to be an issue here either. Really, it's just up to Virginia to give the OK for NS negotiations, platform restoration in RNK, and looking into the possibility of having a stop in Bedford. As far as I can tell, the Bedford station has since been removed, so there may be some work to do there as well.
> ...


That I didn't know. Well, if the town of Bedford is smart about it, they'll have the restaurant renovation leave (or add) a waiting room as part of the floorplan. Then it would just be a matter of getting the platform up to spec.

Rafi


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## wayman (Dec 23, 2009)

Rafi said:


> The run time between LYH and RNK was about an hour;


Is RNK going to be the official abbreviation for Roanoke? Was that its designation back in the '70s? (Did Amtrak have standardized three-letter abbreviations back then?)

Does someone maintain a list of "legacy designations" to be consulted in case of service restorations? And is that list consulted in the case of new (never-served-before) stations (like Leavenworth, Washington) just to make sure a new station's designation doesn't conflict with an unused legacy station's, just in case? (Obviously, they check for conflicts with current stations.)


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## Rafi (Dec 23, 2009)

wayman said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > The run time between LYH and RNK was about an hour;
> ...


If I had to guess, yes, RNK will be the station code. RNK was the station code when Amtrak had a thruway connection to the town from Clifton Forge (from the Cardinal) a few years back, and RNK still designates Roanoke, VA in Arrow.

Rafi

EDIT: I found the restaurant's website. It looks like they are well into restoration and plan to repoen in February 2010.


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## Zevzec (Dec 23, 2009)

Ispolkom said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > (I hope we can come up with a better name than "Lynchburger"!!!)
> ...


Nice. Like the Flying Hamburger!


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## wayman (Dec 23, 2009)

Rafi said:


> EDIT: I found the restaurant's website. It looks like they are well into restoration and plan to repoen in February 2010.


Here's an aerial map of the area.

The station (restaurant) is on the north side of the tracks, surrounded by its parking lot. Presumably the restaurant's land ends at the edge of the lot, so perhaps the land just to the east of the station lot is available? But I think it's unlevel, sloping upwards away from the tracks, so some grading would be necessary if construction happened there.

The three buildings to the south side of the tracks (but north of Depot St) are some sort of agricultural industry, though I'm not sure if the buildings are still in use/industry still in business; they're served by two sidings, one of which lies between the buildings and the double-track main.

Given the success of the restaurant (according to Dad), it's highly unlikely anyone could get the restaurant to part with any station space. They may be equally possessive of their parking lot.

When this was an active station, there was a short covered walkway leading from the station building to a covered platform by the north track. That part of the structure was removed when the railroad sold the building, and a fence was erected. And this wasn't the original site of the building: it was originally a quarter mile away, up a hill from the tracks (built 1891): the "covered walkway" was originally a covered stairwell down the hill to the covered platform -- much like in Paoli today. The entire building was moved to its present location, and at track level, when the line was relocated in 1907. _Virginia Railway Depots_ (Donald R. Traser, Old Dominion Chapter, NRHS) has some nice photos and a brief history. I'll see if I can't scan that in sometime this vacation.


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## dlagrua (Dec 23, 2009)

If you consider that Amtrak is uncle Sam and they get back federal income tax from all Amtrak employees, they are not losing much money.


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## rrdude (Dec 23, 2009)

Rafi said:


> Regarding the Link museum. I have it on good authority that a trackside room in that building has been set aside (not at Amtrak's request) as a future waiting room with electric outlets, room for chairs, communications for Quik-Trak, etc. So a station facility does not seem to be an issue here either.


That's very good new indeed, as it seems that adequate station facilities often delay, or detract from what otherwise would/could generate very impressive numbers.

I'm probably wrong more often than right, but something about having Roanoke as an end-point city, vs. Lynchburg tells me that Amtrak and the State of Virginia have "winner" written all over it... If they do it right............


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## MattW (Dec 23, 2009)

One issue that's very minor is just what exactly to call a train that goes all the way to Roanoke? Is it still a Northeast Regional? Because if Amtrak's not careful, they'll have a "Northeast Regional" going all the way to LAX! 

Seriously now, it looks like turning facilities in RNK aren't that bad judging from Google Maps (what would we do without it?). There seems to be an in-service WYE track SE of the Station that abuts the Roanoke shops. Of course, such a move would require tying up the main tracks for a while which I'm not sure NS would be thrilled about. Another solution is to shove the Amcans somewhere, then turn the P42 (only 1 right?) on the Roanoke shop's turntable then have to run around the train and couple back up. Another is to use a Cabbage or Metroliner cab car or one of those AEM-7 cab cars once the new electrics arrive and just push-pull the train.

[EDIT]: Another bonus of RNK is appears to already have a platform!

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=283215&nseq=31


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## Rafi (Dec 23, 2009)

MattW said:


> One issue that's very minor is just what exactly to call a train that goes all the way to Roanoke? Is it still a Northeast Regional? Because if Amtrak's not careful, they'll have a "Northeast Regional" going all the way to LAX!  Seriously now, it looks like turning facilities in RNK aren't that bad judging from Google Maps (what would we do without it?). There seems to be an in-service WYE track SE of the Station that abuts the Roanoke shops. Of course, such a move would require tying up the main tracks for a while which I'm not sure NS would be thrilled about. Another solution is to shove the Amcans somewhere, then turn the P42 (only 1 right?) on the Roanoke shop's turntable then have to run around the train and couple back up. Another is to use a Cabbage or Metroliner cab car or one of those AEM-7 cab cars once the new electrics arrive and just push-pull the train.
> 
> [EDIT]: Another bonus of RNK is appears to already have a platform!
> 
> http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=283215&nseq=31


Ah, the naming dilemma. I'm still in favor of something like the "Old Dominion" or "Hilltopper," to be honest. But unfortunately, politics get involved in things like this (hence "Lynchburger" was no joke) and every town wants the darned thing named after them specifically; that's why we've got Northeast Regional. I think Amtrak can get away with taking the NE Regional name to Roanoke, but no further. West of that, it becomes a joke (albeit a fantastic AGR redemption). As I said before, I think we'll get a corridor name for this route once we have multiple daily frequencies, similar to the Cascades.

The Y southeast of the station is the logical place to turn the train. Figuring out where to store the train overnight, whether to Y, or to engine rotate, or to cab car the service is all part of negotiations with NS, so it's all very much just speculation on our part right now.

The platform at Roanoke can work (and did work on the excursions this past November), but there is no station-side platform, which I'm guessing will be required. It's just an island platform inbetween tracks. Remember, the N&W Station (now the Link Museum) used to have a catwalk across the tracks with stairs leading down to the island platform. That catwalk is now long gone, and the train may require a platform station-side. Alternatively, an escalator and elevator could be added to the Hotel Roanoke bridge, which crosses the track platform, but access to that bridge is a good distance from the Link Museum.

Anyway, I digress. Speculation is dangerous! 

Rafi


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 23, 2009)

It looks like the tracks are as good as they ever were.

It was said the recent test trip took about one hour.

I had noted that in 1957 it took about one hour 10 minutes. But that usually included a stop at Bedford, so that sounds about the same.

I wish a lot of the track in the rest of the country had held together as well as this.

The old train names don't seem very helpful. They were: The Pelican, the Birmingham Special, The Tennessean, The Pocahontas, The Powhatan Arrow and the Cavalier.

Maybe the Tennessean, maybe some day.


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## Big Iron (Dec 23, 2009)

Rafi said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > One issue that's very minor is just what exactly to call a train that goes all the way to Roanoke? Is it still a Northeast Regional? Because if Amtrak's not careful, they'll have a "Northeast Regional" going all the way to LAX!  Seriously now, it looks like turning facilities in RNK aren't that bad judging from Google Maps (what would we do without it?). There seems to be an in-service WYE track SE of the Station that abuts the Roanoke shops. Of course, such a move would require tying up the main tracks for a while which I'm not sure NS would be thrilled about. Another solution is to shove the Amcans somewhere, then turn the P42 (only 1 right?) on the Roanoke shop's turntable then have to run around the train and couple back up. Another is to use a Cabbage or Metroliner cab car or one of those AEM-7 cab cars once the new electrics arrive and just push-pull the train.
> ...



I hope we get the opportunity to have a naming contest similar to the new(ish) Missouri service. Illinois named a new train The Saluki in deference to Southern Ill Univ. "The Hokie" would be appropriate given the fair number of Va Tech students that would use the service. HokieNav, what say you?


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## Amtrak839 (Dec 23, 2009)

Big Iron said:


> I hope we get the opportunity to have a naming contest similar to the new(ish) Missouri service. Illinois named a new train The Saluki in deference to Southern Ill Univ. "The Hokie" would be appropriate given the fair number of Va Tech students that would use the service. HokieNav, what say you?



The Cavalier would make more sense IMHO. The train stops in Charlottesville, home of UVA, but doesn't go through Blacksburg.


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## Ryan (Dec 23, 2009)

Big Iron said:


> "The Hokie" would be appropriate given the fair number of Va Tech students that would use the service. HokieNav, what say you?


I was itching do make that suggestion when the naming question came up. I think that the wahoo's up the track a bit might take issue with that, but maybe they should try winning the Commonwealth Cup every once in a while.  
More realistically, I'm with Rafi - the Old Dominion or Hilltopper would get my vote.


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## The Metropolitan (Dec 23, 2009)

Probably boring and uninventive, but something tells me it would get named the Virginian.

I question that they'd want to name their "new" train Old anything, to avoid bad press.

Likewise for the Hokie - all it needs to do is be delayed twice in a week, and it'll be the Hokey Pokey from then on.

The Hilltopper too readily brings to mind the former train of the same name, which, while at least reasonably used, brings "pork" too readily to mind.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 23, 2009)

Amtrak839 said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > I hope we get the opportunity to have a naming contest similar to the new(ish) Missouri service. Illinois named a new train The Saluki in deference to Southern Ill Univ. "The Hokie" would be appropriate given the fair number of Va Tech students that would use the service. HokieNav, what say you?
> ...


Yes, I guess Cavalier would be the most appropriate of all the old names. Slight problem: the Cavalier (as well as the Powhatan Arrow and Pocahontas) went primarily from Cincinnati to Norfolk.

The trains which came from New York and Washington (and to points south of Bristol) had such names as Birmingham Special, Pelican and Tennessean. None of those would work unless it is extended to Bristol someday. It could then be called the Tennessean. Bristol is a city partly in Virginia and partly in Tennessee.

But what difference does it make for the exact route not to completely match the name after all these years? "Cavalier" has a nice sound to it and my vote is for it to be revived.


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## MattW (Dec 23, 2009)

If you wanted, you could hearken back to Virginia's maritime history and call it "Virginia Clipper." Clipper ships were very fast, and the train appears to be competitive with the Driving time if Google Maps is to be believed.


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## rrdude (Dec 23, 2009)

The fact is, a "naming contest" could draw add'l interest in the train, as we all know, and the "decider" (God I love that name) should be in the hands of one person, and the winner should get a "trip for a year" (once a week, RT, non transferable)


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 23, 2009)

MattW said:


> If you wanted, you could hearken back to Virginia's maritime history and call it "Virginia Clipper." Clipper ships were very fast, and the train appears to be competitive with the Driving time if Google Maps is to be believed.


Funny thing, Matt, I kinda think there has been a train with that name in the past. I cannot place it, however, but will try to find it and post if here. Of course it is possible I am just remembering the ship name. Meanwhile I think either that or my previously mentioned Cavalier would be a good choice.


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## Ryan (Dec 23, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> "Cavalier" has a nice sound to it and my vote is for it to be revived.


No freaking way.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 23, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > "Cavalier" has a nice sound to it and my vote is for it to be revived.
> ...




Uh oh, I had not thought about it the way I suspect you mean. . :huh:

I think it may be an out of date name not appropriate any more.

Is that it? If so, I will hush and withdraw my nomination.


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## wayman (Dec 23, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> HokieNav said:
> 
> 
> > Bill Haithcoat said:
> ...


It's not the Cavalier is out-of-date or has any new meaning ... it's just that the Cavaliers are the sports team of the University of Virginia, the arch-rivals of the Virginia Tech Hokies  (You might be able to guess with which side of this rivalry HokieNav's support lies!)

Another odd concern ... if we name this new train the Cavalier, do we set a precedent where the other new Virginia state-sponsored train (to Richmond) will also get a name with a college theme? If it gets named after the sports team of the University of Richmond, then we would have an Amtrak train named ... the Spider!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 23, 2009)

wayman said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > HokieNav said:
> ...



Thanks much for the clarification. I know nothing about sports. I thought I had reopened the American Revolution or something. Again, I had no idea. I am doing well to know the names of teams in Atlanta.

Of course the long ago train originally named the Cavalier would have had no connection with a school. But today is today so, sure, many peope today would make the sports and university conenction.

Again, thanks for clearing it up.


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## DET63 (Dec 23, 2009)

Ispolkom said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > (I hope we can come up with a better name than "Lynchburger"!!!)
> ...


Since Lynchburg is the home of Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, perhaps the _Liberty Flame_ or the _Lynchburg Flame_, or maybe the _Falwell Flame_. Or maybe just the _Jerry Falwell_. Sure, it would get a lot of liberals' panties in a bunch, but it might get a number of young Religious Right Republicans to support Amtrak.

OTOH, to support the other school there, call it the _Lynchburg Hornet_.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 23, 2009)

The Virginian sounds like a classy, compromise name unless ya'll want to call it the Texas Longhorn! :lol:


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## Ryan (Dec 24, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Thanks much for the clarification. I know nothing about sports. I thought I had reopened the American Revolution or something. Again, I had no idea. I am doing well to know the names of teams in Atlanta.
> Of course the long ago train originally named the Cavalier would have had no connection with a school. But today is today so, sure, many peope today would make the sports and university conenction.
> 
> Again, thanks for clearing it up.


Sorry, I assume that everyone is as rabid a sports fan as I am.


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## tp49 (Dec 24, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> The Virginian sounds like a classy, compromise name unless ya'll want to call it the Texas Longhorn! :lol:


Why would anyone want to name _anything_ the "Texas Longhorn" when the Alabama Crimson Tide is a *much* better nickname 

Even if the Lynchburg in question is in Tennessee (and not actually in reference to the one in Virginia), they would potentially have a locked in corporate sponsor if they named it the "Lynchburg Lemonade" (sponsored by Jack Daniels of course.)


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 24, 2009)

tp49 said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > The Virginian sounds like a classy, compromise name unless ya'll want to call it the Texas Longhorn! :lol:
> ...



Two things: It is true that I know nothing about sports. However, my sister is a University of Alabama graduate and an avid football fan so you can be SURE I recognize "Crimson TIde".

Now, in response to Matt, I said I would try to research the Virginia Clipper name. Their was a BLue and Gray Clipper from Washington to RIchmond. The "blue and gray" could go, obviously. That leaves "Clipper"

as a usable almost-historic name.

My vote is now for Clipper or Virginia Clipper.

I do not want to repeat Hilltopper, that became so negative. Of couse it is primarily just us railfans who remember train names.


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 24, 2009)

Its not surprising that the new trains in Virginia are doing well. Just prior to Amtrak their were still two trains daily each way from Bristol through Roanoke and Lynchburg to Washington via N&W/Southern. They were local remanants of the Birmingham Special and the Pelican. Less that a year before Amtrak started, I traveled from Cincinnati to Roanoke and changed to one of the Bristol Washington trains which arrived in Washington about 4:40 PM. It was a Sunday afternoon and the train was nearly full all the way.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes, WAS to Lynchburg has so much potential. At one time there were nine trains a day from New York and/or WAS to Lynchburg and beyond.

There was the Crescent and Piedmont Limited to ATL, Montgomery,Mobile and NOL

The Southerner, same route as today's Crescent,ATL, Birmingham, NOL.

The Washington Atlanta New Orleans Express, the Peach Queen and a nameless local to ATL.

The Pelican beyond Lynchburg to Roanoke,Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, BIrmingham, NOL

The Birmingham Special, same as above but only to BHM (connection in Chattanooga to Memphis)

The Tennessean, same as above to Chattanooga, thence Huntsville and Memphis

That is nine.

Not coming from NY but instead from Norfolk to Cincinnati were the already mentioned Powhatan Arrow, Pocahontas and Cavalier. Via Lynchburg and Roanoke

Good track. It ought to do well.


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## rrdude (Dec 24, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > "The Hokie" would be appropriate given the fair number of Va Tech students that would use the service. HokieNav, what say you?
> ...


There is NO WAY Amtrak should use the name "Hilltopper" ever again. Just reminds ANYone with a memory of pork, pork, pork....

No, if, :lol: :lol: :lol: ok I can't type this w/out laffing, "if Amtrak ever were in a position to NOT have to worry about politics...............then I'd agree the Hilltopper would be an appropriate name.


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## Big Iron (Dec 24, 2009)

The Metropolitan said:


> Probably boring and uninventive, but something tells me it would get named the Virginian.
> I question that they'd want to name their "new" train Old anything, to avoid bad press.
> 
> Likewise for the Hokie - all it needs to do is be delayed twice in a week, and it'll be the Hokey Pokey from then on.
> ...


Didn't Amtrak run a RVR to NYP or BOS train called the Virginian?? Maybe it was the Colonial, maybe both?


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## SouthernServesTheSouth (Dec 30, 2009)

DET63 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > wayman said:
> ...


It was the Liberty University students that voted in mass for the canidate that defeated Amtrak champion Sharron Valentine.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 1, 2010)

Rafi said:


> Luckily, extending the current train much past Roanoke will result in an overnight trip in either direction--something both Virginia and Amtrak want to avoid. So if we see service to Bristol or points west of there, I'm betting it'll most likely be in the form of a new frequency as part of the corridor, which will hopefully have a name by then (I couldn't call that a Northeast Regional train and keep a straight face). So if I had to speculate (and this is just that--speculation), you'd have the current train running Boston/SPG to Roanoke and then another train running Bristol to a major Amtrak gateway (ie connection) city. Richmond would be the obvious choice there, assuming something can be worked out with NS for the LYH-RVM segment.


BOS-LYH is roughly 8AM to 8PM in both directions on the current schedule. Would it make sense for a trip beyond Roanoke to be an extension of existing Northeast Regional trains whose northern end is NYP? (It looks like the only southbound Northeast Regional departing BOS earlier than the LYH train currently goes to NPN, so having an early morning train from BOS extended to southern VA would require adding another frequency at BOS, or perhaps splitting the existing NPN train while doing the locomotive swap at WAS.)


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 1, 2010)

WhoozOn1st said:


> "Fares produced $414,000, which was 87 percent more than expected and almost enough to cover the cost of operating the train. Virginia has budgeted a monthly subsidy of $242,000 for the train, but only $48,000 of that will be needed for October, according to figures Page gave the transportation board."


Has Virginia considered asking Amtrak what additional services Amtrak could be providing Virginia for the $194,000 a month that Virginia is willing to spend that Amtrak isn't currently spending? Would it cover the incremental operating costs of extending the train to Roanoke (excluding the capital costs of upgrading the station facilities at Roanoke)?


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 1, 2010)

Rafi said:


> Really, it's just up to Virginia to give the OK for NS negotiations, platform restoration in RNK, and looking into the possibility of having a stop in Bedford. As far as I can tell, the Bedford station has since been removed, so there may be some work to do there as well.


I would think it would be possible to start initial service to RNK without a stop in Bedford, and add a Bedford stop later, if capital funding were the constraining factor.

It sounds like the minimum capital investment for extending the LYH Northeast Regional round trip to RNK might be simply the construction of a mini high level platform at RNK. Is the number of dollars required for such a platform a small multiple of the $194,000 monthly difference between what Virginia is willing to spend to subsidize LYH service and what Virginia has actually been spending?


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## wayman (Jan 1, 2010)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> > "Fares produced $414,000, which was 87 percent more than expected and almost enough to cover the cost of operating the train. Virginia has budgeted a monthly subsidy of $242,000 for the train, but only $48,000 of that will be needed for October, according to figures Page gave the transportation board."
> ...


They're not going to be saving $194,000 a month. They saved that much the first month. They may come in under budget overall, but I expect they'll be much closer to the budget by January or February.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 2, 2010)

Its just Joel and his pie in the sky ideas again. Joel, you oughtta get involved on the transit-advocacy front. Like with the Lackawanna Coalition. I'm sure, though, there are similar organizations in the Boston area.


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## mkellerm (Jan 2, 2010)

A couple of additional observations about the ridership numbers, from various press releases:

* No surprise, but the five largest city-pairs were Charlottesville-DC, Lynchburg-DC, Charlottesville-NY, Lynchburg-NY, and Charlottesville-Phila.

* It appears that about 30-40% of the ridership on the new Lynchburg train was diverted from the Crescent. I haven't seen October numbers for the Crescent yet, so I'm not sure how much of that was made up by additional longer-distance riders.

* On that note, the new train did well over the Thanksgiving week, carrying 3,587 passengers between Nov 24 and Nov 30. During the same time period, Crescent ridership was up 8.7%, suggesting that longer-haul passengers are filling seats vacated by Virginia passengers.


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## wayman (Jan 2, 2010)

mkellerm said:


> * No surprise, but the five largest city-pairs were Charlottesville-DC, Lynchburg-DC, Charlottesville-NY, Lynchburg-NY, and Charlottesville-Phila.


Hey, I'm doing everything I can for the Lynchburg-Phila city-pair!  Except that my last ride on 176 was LYH-WAS. Oops! 



> * It appears that about 30-40% of the ridership on the new Lynchburg train was diverted from the Crescent. I haven't seen October numbers for the Crescent yet, so I'm not sure how much of that was made up by additional longer-distance riders.
> * On that note, the new train did well over the Thanksgiving week, carrying 3,587 passengers between Nov 24 and Nov 30. During the same time period, Crescent ridership was up 8.7%, suggesting that longer-haul passengers are filling seats vacated by Virginia passengers.


Yeah, my sense is that the Crescent's loss in VA-ridership is being made up for by longer ridership (WAS-ATL and the like). But I don't have numbers to back that up.


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## DET63 (Jan 2, 2010)

SouthernServesTheSouth said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > Ispolkom said:
> ...


Did they oppose Valentine because of her support for Amtrak, or because of her support for liberal positions (assuming she had them) on issues such as abortion, homosexuality, military spending, etc.?


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## wayman (Jan 2, 2010)

DET63 said:


> SouthernServesTheSouth said:
> 
> 
> > DET63 said:
> ...


My understanding of Liberty University is that it has two litmus test issues -- views on abortion and gay rights -- which determine the school's not-so-subtle "endorsement" to its student body. The university then cancels all classes on Election Day and hires a fleet of buses to take students to polls after offering them voting guides (since many of them are not local).

The issue is not unique to Liberty -- the issue of university students organizing and voting at school, where they are less familiar with local issues and will not remain in the voting district to be represented by whomever they vote for beyond graduation. But Liberty is (1) quite large, and more able to overwhelm locals in election turnout than many schools (I have the sense that most large universities are split up across multiple districts so in no district do students come close to out-representing locals, while in Liberty's case, districts are not drawn this way to the same degree as in most places), and (2) rather unique in the degree to which the university administration facilitates -- almost mandates -- students to vote locally. Basically, the university itself tries to swing elections in its favor so local policies favor the university administration's goals, and because they have an enormous student body essentially "at their disposal", they can achieve this fairly readily.


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

wayman said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > SouthernServesTheSouth said:
> ...



In the Commonwealth of Virginia, students who are not residents of former Delegate Valentine's District would not be able to vote for/against her as they would not be residents of that particular District and registered to vote there. Now if they were to establish residency, a different story, or Liberty is taking a page out of ACORN's playbook.


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## wayman (Jan 2, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > DET63 said:
> ...


It's extremely easy for students to establish residency at their college address, simply by filling out a voter registration form, in order to vote in those elections (instead of in their "home state" elections). And I'm sure Liberty strongly encourages this at a university administrative level, just as they encourage voting. Many student organizations do the same things elsewhere -- student groups associated with a party's politics like Drexel Dems or even student groups supporting issues activism will often hold on-campus voter registration activities -- but the degree of official university administration involvement that Liberty puts forth is quite unusual.


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

wayman said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > wayman said:
> ...


Agreed. Liberty University wears its conservatism on its sleeve and a Falwell endorsement paves the way for an easy victory. If memory serves, the Young Democrat club (or similar such group) at Liberty was de-sanctioned as a university funded club and forced off campus.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> a page out of ACORN's playbook.


And just what playbook would that be?


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > a page out of ACORN's playbook.
> ...


Transporting un-registered voters to the polls to vote for a pre-determined candidate.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Big Iron said:
> ...


And you've got proof that acorn's done that.


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


The same amount of proof as you that they haven't.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

Fortunately we believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and being able to back up extraordinary claims that we make (which clearly you're not able to do). Thanks for playing.


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Fortunately we believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and being able to back up extraordinary claims that we make (which clearly you're not able to do). Thanks for playing.


Just do a little poking around on the web and you can find a host of actual convictions, with the defendants pleading guilty to voter fraud charges, while working for ACORN. So there is proof to say that SOME ACORN employees have tampered with the voting process. I'll leave it at that and move away from the politics for now and also retract my "playbook" comment as being too broad in nature.


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## DET63 (Jan 2, 2010)

Lynchburg has a population of about 73,000. Nearly 12,000 of them are Liberty University students. There are several other colleges, community colleges and universities there as well. I wouldn't consider Liberty's student population to be "huge," at least not in comparison with other universities and colleges, even just in Virginia. The fact that they are a resident population, as opposed to commuting students who are already from the area, may give them a bit larger influence on local elections.

The fact that many of them may come from other parts of the U.S. may also make it less likely that they would be inclined to take the train home every weekend to visit their folks, i.e., they may fly or drive instead, and do so less frequently. Thus, they may be less inclined to support a pro-Amtrak candidate—irrespective of his or her positions on other issues—than students at large public institutions.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 2, 2010)

"Who's afraid of the big bad wolf, the big bad wolf..." Since time began there always has to have been an enemy, a scary

group of "them" to use to scare the people, er sheep! When I was young it was Communists, then beatniks and Rock N Roll, then hippies and drugs, blacks, orientals, hispanics,gays etc. Now the lunatic fringe is afraid of ACORN whose main purpose was to register voters, advise poor people on how to utilize the system in place to gain needed services since so many people are uneducated and dont know what's out there! Now that it's known that President Obama had brief ties with ACORN! it's another political tool to utilize by the birthers and other idiots in the T-Party movement running around like the Mad Hatter trying to find a life! If it wasnt so pathetic and sad, it would be laughable how easy some people are to fool with bs and lies, just ask Sarah Palin!


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

DET63 said:


> Lynchburg has a population of about 73,000. Nearly 12,000 of them are Liberty University students. There are several other colleges, community colleges and universities there as well. I wouldn't consider Liberty's student population to be "huge," at least not in comparison with other universities and colleges, even just in Virginia. The fact that they are a resident population, as opposed to commuting students who are already from the area, may give them a bit larger influence on local elections.
> The fact that many of them may come from other parts of the U.S. may also make it less likely that they would be inclined to take the train home every weekend to visit their folks, i.e., they may fly or drive instead, and do so less frequently. Thus, they may be less inclined to support a pro-Amtrak candidate—irrespective of his or her positions on other issues—than students at large public institutions.


It would be interesting to see the geographic makeup of the Liberty student body. If they are from all points of the compass, a train might be the first part of their journey home as they train would hit most of the large East coast airports.


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## DET63 (Jan 2, 2010)

ACORN's misbehavior in registering voters has been documented, not just alleged. Whether or not the actions of some ACORN workers is endemic to the organization's SOP is another question, of course, and I suppose it's not fair to assume that everyone who works or has ever worked for ACORN is involved in voting fraud.

Why we need voter-registration drives is beyond me, though; in many parts of the country, it's almost more difficult to NOT get registered. You often don't even have to prove residency or citizenship to register (I didn't in California—or, years earlier, in Oregon), and you can vote by mail in the privacy (or even the privy, if you're so inclined  ) of your own home should you find it difficult or impossible to get to the voting booth on election day.

As far as students at Liberty or any other university or college are concerned, I personally don't think they should vote in a community where they don't intend to spend the rest of their lives; I didn't while I was in college. Nevertheless, I believe the laws are written so that it is legal for them to do so, and so long as they aren't committing any crimes by doing so, they should vote (or not vote at all) as their conscience dictates. If a Liberty University student wishes to vote for a candidate who supports Amtrak, for example, even if that person's positions on other issues may not fall in lock-step with what Jerry Falwell preached, that student should be able to mark his or her secret ballot as he or she wishes.


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## wayman (Jan 2, 2010)

DET63 said:


> Lynchburg has a population of about 73,000. Nearly 12,000 of them are Liberty University students.


Looks like the VA HoD 23rd District (which is more than just Lynchburg) 79,000 people, but that figure includes children and others ineligible to vote. Figure 80% of them are of voting age (potential voters), which would be about 63,000. Liberty University has an enrollment of 18,597 (google liberty university enrollment and it displays the answer before even giving the search results, amazing!). So there are about 45,000 non-LU student voters in the district. And probably 17,000 of the Liberty students are eligible to register locally -- 18+ and not international students.

Turnout in the 23rd District was 43%, which means there were 27,000 votes cast in the entire district. Let's assume LU registered 80% of their students locally and got 90% of those locally-registered students to the polls on their fleet of buses, with classes cancelled. That's 12,000 voters -- or very nearly HALF of the votes cast in the 23rd District -- voting in a bloc. That's huge.

Actually, let me revise that. 43% turnout is not 43% of "people of voting age" ... it's 43% of "registered voters". So, let's assume 80% of Liberty students registered locally, but only 70% of the voting-eligible non-LU-student population is registered to vote. And that's a high estimate. That would make the voting population 17,000 * .8 = about 13,500 LU students and 45,000 * .7 = 31,500 non-LU-students, for a total of about 45,000 voters. 43% of that is about 19,000 votes cast ... and if we assume LU had 90% turnout of registered students, that accounts for 12,000 votes. That's way _more than half_. I'm making lots of estimates here, and I'll freely admit they're probably off in some ways. But moving them around, you'll still find LU has a huge influence on local politics in this district no matter how you tweak them.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

DET63 said:


> ACORN's misbehavior in registering voters has been documented, not just alleged.


Uh, no, It hasn't. People working for ACORN have misbehaved, yet there is no proof whatsoever that this behavior was encouraged or even condoned by ACORN policy. There is plenty of evidence that ACORN cooperating and assisting in the prosecution of those that submitted fraudulent voter registrations.

http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/pdf/CRS-ACORN091222.pdf



> Effect of alleged false voter registrations by ACORN workers. You asked CRS to research improper voter registrations that resulted in people being placed on the voting rolls and attempting to vote improperly at the polls.	As you discussed with Julius Jefferson (x75593) a NEXIS search of the ALL NEWS file did not identify any reported instances of individuals who were improperly registered by ACORN attempting to vote at the polls.


Stop spreading this BS FUD. It's been proven false time and time again.


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

wayman said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > Lynchburg has a population of about 73,000. Nearly 12,000 of them are Liberty University students.
> ...


I visited Shannon Valentine's website. It was somewhat unique to see biblical quotes on the homepage. Your math speaks volumes of that voting district. Time for Amtrak to spend some marketing dollars on Liberty's campus. If Amtrak can sway that campus towards taking the train then everybody wins.

I think I may have made reference to this earlier in the thread, or was just thinking (dreaming). Split the train to run through Farmville into Richmond and extend to Roanoke thereby Amtrak could capture Virginia Tech, Roanoke area colleges, Lynchburg, Longwood Universtiy and other Richmond bound traffic. Or, have buses meet the Regional in CVS to make the RVR connection.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> I visited Shannon Valentine's website. It was somewhat unique to see biblical quotes on the homepage. Your math speaks volumes of that voting district. Time for Amtrak to spend some marketing dollars on Liberty's campus.


You'll have to find a pro-life, anti-gay rights, pro-Amtrak candidate, or else Amtrak may as well light those marketing dollars on fire.


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## DET63 (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > ACORN's misbehavior in registering voters has been documented, not just alleged.
> ...


Hardly BS, and hardly "proven false time and time again." Whether anyone is actually prosecuted for the organization's misbehavior is, of course, another matter.


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

DET63 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > DET63 said:
> ...


I don't feel like going back to the source on the internet but I googled "acorn voter fraud convictions" and there were 3 acorn employees that pleaded guilty in Seattle, WA for falsely registering voters. I said I wasn't going to go back to politics but there is docketed proof of voter fraud, how rampant is for the speculators.


----------



## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > I visited Shannon Valentine's website. It was somewhat unique to see biblical quotes on the homepage. Your math speaks volumes of that voting district. Time for Amtrak to spend some marketing dollars on Liberty's campus.
> ...


HA HA, I'll agree with you on that point. The point I was making is the train is already there, put some money towards marketing (maybe Amtrak already has) and ridership will increase, politics notwithstanding.


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## Neil_M (Jan 2, 2010)

Religion and politics should not be mixed together....


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

DET63 said:


> Hardly BS, and hardly "proven false time and time again." Whether anyone is actually prosecuted for the organization's misbehavior is, of course, another matter.


So we're back to extraordinary claims and lack of proof. I've provided a start on the information that proves your allegations false. You've provided ... nothing.



Big Iron said:


> I don't feel like going back to the source on the internet but I googled "acorn voter fraud convictions" and there were 3 acorn employees that pleaded guilty in Seattle, WA for falsely registering voters. I said I wasn't going to go back to politics but there is docketed proof of voter fraud, how rampant is for the speculators.


There's still nothing that says the organization as a whole encourages or condones such action. On the contrary:


> ACORN President Maude Hurd said in a statement, "It appears that a handful of temporary workers were trying to get paid for work they hadn't actually done. While we don't think the intent or the result of their actions was to allow any ineligible person to vote, these employees defrauded ACORN and imposed a burden on the time and resources of registrars and law enforcement."


Perhaps if you had referred to Liberty taking a page out of Diebold's playbook, you'd have been more accurate (except Diebold's fraud didn't require actual people to show up and vote).


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

jimhudson said:


> "Who's afraid of the big bad wolf, the big bad wolf..." Since time began there always has to have been an enemy, a scary group of "them" to use to scare the people, er sheep! When I was young it was Communists, then beatniks and Rock N Roll, then hippies and drugs, blacks, orientals, hispanics,gays etc. Now the lunatic fringe is afraid of ACORN whose main purpose was to register voters, advise poor people on how to utilize the system in place to gain needed services since so many people are uneducated and dont know what's out there! Now that it's known that President Obama had brief ties with ACORN! it's another political tool to utilize by the birthers and other idiots in the T-Party movement running around like the Mad Hatter trying to find a life! If it wasnt so pathetic and sad, it would be laughable how easy some people are to fool with bs and lies, just ask Sarah Palin!


Acorn deviated from their core principals, noble in all respects, and failed to oversee their base thus allowing criminal activity to gain ground within the organization. There are many, many, many civic and not for profit organizations (I sit on the Board of more than a few) that serve the same/similar purpose as Acorn and rely soley on private contributions and do not operate under a cloud of alleged criminal activity to accomplish their mission. Let Acorn stand or fail on its own fundraising merits.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> do not operate under a cloud of alleged criminal activity to accomplish their mission.


The cloud of allegations is made wholly of the right wing media and misinformed people spreading FUD. It is completely impossible to have an organization of 400,000 people without a few bad apples.


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## Guest_George Harris_* (Jan 2, 2010)

Give it a rest, everybody involved.

Ryan-VT, the question on the table is not who made the allegations, but whether or not they are true. You would be a lot more convincing if you addressed the facts rather than throwing mud at those you disagree with.

I see no relevance between being a supporter of passenger rail serivce and either political liberalism or political conservatism. There are political issues completely unrelated to Amtrak or other rail issues that would trump a candidate's views on rail, either pro or con, even if it cost me my job, which happens to be related to rail.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

Guest_George Harris_* said:


> Ryan-VT, the question on the table is not who made the allegations, but whether or not they are true. You would be a lot more convincing if you addressed the facts rather than throwing mud at those you disagree with.
> I see no relevance between being a supporter of passenger rail serivce and either political liberalism or political conservatism. There are political issues completely unrelated to Amtrak or other rail issues that would trump a candidate's views on rail, either pro or con, even if it cost me my job, which happens to be related to rail.


Who died and made you moderator? Try rereading my posts since you seem to have skipped over the parts where I did address the facts (or lack of them on the part of the people making the allegations).


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## Guest_George Harris_* (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Guest_George Harris_* said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan-VT, the question on the table is not who made the allegations, but whether or not they are true. You would be a lot more convincing if you addressed the facts rather than throwing mud at those you disagree with.
> ...


I read them. No further comments.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 2, 2010)

I thought we all agreed not to talk politics unrelated to Amtrak?



Big Iron said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Fortunately we believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and being able to back up extraordinary claims that we make (which clearly you're not able to do). Thanks for playing.
> ...


You have found convictions by a employees of an organization. You have not determined the organizations internal policy in such matters. Likewise, while Acorn might help register voters and help them get to places where they can vote, and while they might select area most likely to vote for a candidate that organization supports, you have not determined that they have only allowed people voting for their candidate to participate. Find proof of that. Put up or shut up, lad.


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## Big Iron (Jan 2, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I thought we all agreed not to talk politics unrelated to Amtrak?
> 
> 
> Big Iron said:
> ...


GML, keep a tight grip on those rose colored glasses of yours. I'll continue to earn my way through these good ole United States of ours and hope that work ethic and honesty continue to rule the day. The sad part is that taking the easy way out is gaining fast.....a true sham.........uh, shame.


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## volkris (Jan 3, 2010)

Just to add my two cents, for a college to run enormous voter drive, officially or unofficially, is standard operating procedure these days. And that makes sense: how could either political persuasion pass up an opportunity to have at these naive, idealistic, poorly informed yet strongly opinionated kids with nothing better to do that afternoon than cast a vote? Liberty University is hardly unique even if they do take it slightly farther than most other colleges.

As for ACORN, well, questionable and overtly fraudulent voting operations are standard operating procedure for South Louisiana where I grew up, and let's just say watching how that organization operates--even as it describes itself!--makes me feel right at home.

Yes, Ryan, there have been leaked and authenticated documents from inside ACORN that outline manipulative strategies and a clear political agenda that goes beyond helping the poor. That they've been caught so often just means they're amateurs relative to the LA politicians who have this thing down pat


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## Ryan (Jan 3, 2010)

volkris said:


> Yes, Ryan, there have been leaked and authenticated documents from inside ACORN that outline manipulative strategies and a clear political agenda that goes beyond helping the poor. That they've been caught so often just means they're amateurs relative to the LA politicians who have this thing down pat


That still falls short of documenting actual fraud, no? Of course they have a clear political agenda, which is the real reason that they're so thoroughly despised.


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## wayman (Jan 3, 2010)

volkris said:


> Just to add my two cents, for a college to run enormous voter drive, officially or unofficially, is standard operating procedure these days. And that makes sense: how could either political persuasion pass up an opportunity to have at these naive, idealistic, poorly informed yet strongly opinionated kids with nothing better to do that afternoon than cast a vote? Liberty University is hardly unique even if they do take it slightly farther than most other colleges.


I'd appreciate your listing other examples of colleges/universities where a) the student body is over 10,000, b) the university administration clearly tells the students a preferred slate of candidates, c) the university cancels all classes on election day, and d) the university provides buses to take every student to the polls. While C and D are especially unusual, even B is rather unusual behavior for a school administration to take except in the case of religious institutions (and even then, I think it's unusual), and the combination of B and A is especially unusual. Liberty's situation is extremely unique so far as I know.

Also, referring to earlier posts in this thread, Liberty's situation is extremely ironic as well. I don't know to what extent Amtrak has specifically targeted advertisements to the Liberty campus, but Liberty students appear to be patronizing the train well. (Not that there are surveys and actual statistics on this, but passenger load saw a spike the weekend before Thanksgiving, and most of the riders were young folk, which coincides with Liberty's entire week off for Thanksgiving -- a much longer Thanksgiving break than any other school in the area gets.)


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## Philzy (Jan 6, 2010)

First Off - I'm sorry I've missed out on such an indepth discussion... I've been working my backside off over the holidays.

Second, how wonderful is it that ticket sales are through the roof? I'm so hppy to see this.

Third, and extension to Roanoke would be awesome but at what cost would it come to the rest of the current route. Would the current train be arriving in Roanoke after a time needed to turn it around to head north again? Would that mean that a second daily train would be put in place to maintain the current schedule and also alow for a departure from Roanoke at a reasonable hour that people would actually want to use it? This would also allow a later departure from DC allowing for better connections and the "one day" round trip journey that so many had mentioned prior to the route starting. where would a second trainset come from? We all know Amtrak has so many spare train sets just sitting around - sarcasm -

SO, lastly in closing what burden would extending the line to Roanoke create versus benifit? Is it finally time for the state of VA to actually buy their own rolling stock, and keep Amtrak operating it? If so, I'd like to request train cars with big windows, something sleek and futuristic looking... or am i just dreaming here...

Thoughts?

-Philzy


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## Rafi (Jan 6, 2010)

Philzy-

Extending the train to Roanoke on the current run would have a minimal schedule impact on the train; it's just an hour west of LYH. The train would have plenty of time to turn and be serviced overnight before the next morning's departure. It's if/when service is extended west toward Bristol that Virginia will have to start looking at a second train frequency. For now, the only roadblocks between Roanoke and Amtrak service are:

1). Virginia deciding to push ahead with funding

2). Negotiations with Norfolk Southern

3). Platform and station work at Roanoke and possibly Bedford

The benefits of going to Roanoke are well-known within Amtrak. It's a major population center that can be tapped, and ridership projections are very encouraging. Again, it's Virginia's call.

And to respond to Big Iron's comments earlier:



> I think I may have made reference to this earlier in the thread, or was just thinking (dreaming). Split the train to run through Farmville into Richmond and extend to Roanoke thereby Amtrak could capture Virginia Tech, Roanoke area colleges, Lynchburg, Longwood Universtiy and other Richmond bound traffic. Or, have buses meet the Regional in CVS to make the RVR connection.


Splitting the train at Lynchburg is problematic from a number of logistical angles without substantial investment from Virginia (switching, crews, capacity, etc). I think what you're more likely to see is a new service tracing the proposed TDX map between Bristol and Richmond via Roanoke and Lynchburg. That said, the NS line through Farmville (via High Bridge) was torn up about 4 years ago and has partially become a hiking trail. The state now owns the line and while rails could be re-laid, it's not likely right now. Instead, service between Lynchburg and Richmond would have to go via NS' southerly route through Burkeville.

Lastly, I'll forgive you for forgetting Hampden-Sydney College in Farmville. <grin> We put Longwood on the MAP! 

Rafi


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## rrdude (Jan 6, 2010)

Rafi said:


> Philzy-Extending the train to Roanoke on the current run would have a minimal schedule impact on the train; it's just an hour west of LYH. The train would have plenty of time to turn and be serviced overnight before the next morning's departure. It's if/when service is extended west toward Bristol that Virginia will have to start looking at a second train frequency. For now, the only roadblocks between Roanoke and Amtrak service are:
> 
> 1). Virginia deciding to push ahead with funding
> 
> ...


Finally, some sanity in this thread. Thanks Rafi.

I still gotta laff at the comment. "Who died and made you the moderator........." Thanks, I needed a good chuckle.........


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## SouthernServesTheSouth (Jan 9, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> I visited Shannon Valentine's website. It was somewhat unique to see biblical quotes on the homepage. Your math speaks volumes of that voting district. Time for Amtrak to spend some marketing dollars on Liberty's campus. If Amtrak can sway that campus towards taking the train then everybody wins.
> I think I may have made reference to this earlier in the thread, or was just thinking (dreaming). Split the train to run through Farmville into Richmond and extend to Roanoke thereby Amtrak could capture Virginia Tech, Roanoke area colleges, Lynchburg, Longwood Universtiy and other Richmond bound traffic. Or, have buses meet the Regional in CVS to make the RVR connection.


Train can't go through Farmville, NS pulled up the tracks 2 or 3 years ago. Now a hiking trail to "High Bridge". All tracks between Pamplin City to Crew removed.


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## SouthernServesTheSouth (Jan 9, 2010)

Whops, just saw Rafi's reply. He covered it well.


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## mkellerm (Jan 12, 2010)

The Lynchburg train ridership figures for October to December are now available from various files on the Amtrak website.

October: 8,585

November: 9,915

December: 11,200

Figures for the Crescent are also posted:

October: 21,786 (down 2145)

November: 23,382 (down 240)

December: 24,989 (down 157)

So obviously the good news on the Lynchburg train continues, and whatever negative effect there has been on the Crescent appears to be small and diminishing.


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## afigg (Jan 13, 2010)

mkellerm said:


> The Lynchburg train ridership figures for October to December are now available from various files on the Amtrak website.
> October: 8,585
> 
> November: 9,915
> ...


Impressive numbers, especially the increase from month to month. Wonder how many of these are college students?

If they extend the train to Roanoke, do people think that will be close enough to significantly tap into the Virginia Tech market? It is about 25 miles from Roanoke to Blacksburg. Not a short trip. With 30,000 plus students at VA Tech, it could lead to packed trains in Roanoke on the days the university goes on breaks.


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## AlanB (Jan 13, 2010)

Afigg,

While impressive, please remember that the holidays fell within those last two months, something that does help to boost ridership throughout the system. We can't be certain that the increases will hold.


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## rrdude (Jan 13, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Afigg,
> While impressive, please remember that the holidays fell within those last two months, something that does help to boost ridership throughout the system. We can't be certain that the increases will hold.


Alan's correct, but I still believe this route/train (and when they add Roanoke) has "Winner" written all over it.


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## VT Hokie (Jan 13, 2010)

It sure would be nice to have rail transportation to Roanoke! I'd visit my alma mater more often if I could catch a train there. I'd even consider using the existing Lynchburg service to do so, if there's a car rental place near the station. But Roanoke would be infinitely better!


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## Rafi (Jan 13, 2010)

I think VT Hokie will agree with me in saying this...

In Virginia terms, if it's less than an hour away, it's "local." So 25 miles to Tech is 'nuthin. As long as the station has ample parking, you'll see plenty of college business from Roanoke, Tech, Roanoke College, Hollins, W&L, and even Salem. I'd even expect to see timed shuttle services from the various colleges/universities to the train. Amtrak knows the market is there just waiting to be tapped.

Rafi


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## VT Hokie (Jan 13, 2010)

I certainly agree. As a student without a car, I used to take shuttle services between VT and Roanoke Airport during the holidays.


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## Ryan (Jan 13, 2010)

Rafi and the fellow Hokie nailed it. Depending on the timing, expect that train to be sold out every Friday and Sunday. This would have been awesome when I was down there.


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## Big Iron (Jan 14, 2010)

I attended a meeting about high speed rail on the NS from Petersburg to Norfolk on the NS line. Not true HS rail but the 90 or 110 mph variety. I left my notes at the office but I'll post some of the study details soon. As related to the Lynchburg trains extension to Roanoke, I asked if the Commonwealth was considering this and a possible timeframe for implementation. The answer I got was "funding permitting, 2015 is when the extension to Roanoke would begin."


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## Big Iron (Jan 14, 2010)

Rafi said:


> Philzy-Extending the train to Roanoke on the current run would have a minimal schedule impact on the train; it's just an hour west of LYH. The train would have plenty of time to turn and be serviced overnight before the next morning's departure. It's if/when service is extended west toward Bristol that Virginia will have to start looking at a second train frequency. For now, the only roadblocks between Roanoke and Amtrak service are:
> 
> 1). Virginia deciding to push ahead with funding
> 
> ...


Rafi, my apologies for omitting HSC, grave error on my part. Nice football season last year by the way.


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## afigg (Jan 16, 2010)

Big Iron said:


> I attended a meeting about high speed rail on the NS from Petersburg to Norfolk on the NS line. Not true HS rail but the 90 or 110 mph variety. I left my notes at the office but I'll post some of the study details soon. As related to the Lynchburg trains extension to Roanoke, I asked if the Commonwealth was considering this and a possible timeframe for implementation. The answer I got was "funding permitting, 2015 is when the extension to Roanoke would begin."


2015? The freshmen starting at VA Tech next fall would graduate before the Regional would be extended to Roanoke if the slow moving bureaucracy has its way. The Jan 2010 Amtrak Ink has been posted to the Amtrak website and it has this to say about the new Lynchburg service:

"Across country, the Northeast Regional service to Lynchburg is making a big splash among passengers who like the convenience of traveling directly from cities along the U.S. 29 corridor in Virginia to destinations as far north as Boston without having to change trains. In October 2009, its first month of operation, the new service carried 8,585 passengers, exceeding expected demand by 49 percent. For the fiscal year, through Nov. 30, total ridership on the Washington-Lynchburg corridor was 18,500, a whopping 158 percent above the anticipated 7,179 passengers.

“Since we launched the service in October, our performance has been stellar, and I’ve heard nothing but good things from our passengers,” according to Trainmaster Deborjha Blackwell, who added that the service should be dubbed “the Collegiate” due to the number of student passengers from area colleges. “There’s been a lot of use of the Quiet Car® and Business class has been pretty full,” she added.

“In partnership with Virginia, our goal with this new service is to provide Central Virginia with a transportation alternative, and we’re encouraged by the enthusiasm Virginians have shown for the service,” said Jay McArthur, principal officer, Policy and Development. McArthur cautioned that ridership is cyclical, with increases during the summer months and holiday season. “Ridership over the next few months will provide us with a better indicator of the service’s success,” he pointed out.

Originating from Lynchburg for the first time, Northeast Regional service makes Virginia stops in Charlottesville, Culpeper, Manassas and Alexandria, and stops for Virginia Railway Express passengers at Burke Center and L’Enfant Plaza. The morning service departs Lynchburg weekdays at 7:38 a.m., returning at 8:36 p.m.

The new service is funded by a grant from the Commonwealth of Virginia as part of three-year demonstration program designed to provide more transportation options for Virginians. The grant will also fund an additional Northeast Regional frequency originating from Richmond to New York expected in June of 2010. Virginia is the fifteenth state to partner with Amtrak to operate state-supported trains. Other partners include California, Illinois, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, New York, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Texas, Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin."

So we have an alternate name for the Regional extension: "The Collegiate". Eh, not very catchy.


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## Big Iron (Jan 17, 2010)

afigg said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > I attended a meeting about high speed rail on the NS from Petersburg to Norfolk on the NS line. Not true HS rail but the 90 or 110 mph variety. I left my notes at the office but I'll post some of the study details soon. As related to the Lynchburg trains extension to Roanoke, I asked if the Commonwealth was considering this and a possible timeframe for implementation. The answer I got was "funding permitting, 2015 is when the extension to Roanoke would begin."
> ...


It's nice to see that projections can be conservative and this is indeed good news. The 2015 comments was attributed to a person (IIRC) that works for Virginia's Department of Rail and Public Transportation.

At least Amtrak and the Commonwealth are looking at ways to connect the western part of the state to the east in a more effective and frequent manner. Higher speed rail seems like a good idea but the study results for creating pax service from Richmond through Petersburg to Norfolk, 101 route miles, would cost between $68 million and $100 million to increase speeds from 79 mph to 90 mph, also to make station improvements. The time savings would only be 6 minutes. That money could be better used to increase train frequencies and add routes using exisitng freight infrastructure. A route through Petersburg makes sense for the traveller going to the Tiedwater Region of the state as you don't need to go through DC/ALX to change trains.


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## EB_OBS (Jan 17, 2010)

WhoozOn1st said:


> From the Lynchburg News & Advance:
> Amtrak's Lynchburg-Washington line beats projections
> 
> "Fares produced $414,000, which was 87 percent more than expected and almost enough to cover the cost of operating the train. Virginia has budgeted a monthly subsidy of $242,000 for the train, but only $48,000 of that will be needed for October, according to figures Page gave the transportation board."


Wow! That's the kinda news story that needs to get around. Very nice.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 18, 2010)

Rafi said:


> > But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!!
> 
> 
> Well, the ultimate "plan" is to have service to Bristol, whether that be this train on a different timetable, or a second frequency, perhaps Bristol to Charlottesville or Bristol to Richmond, or something along those lines. The consensus so far has been, however, that the first step was to get the train to Lynchburg. The next step (again, 3 years later) would be Roanoke, and then and only then would Bristol be considered (probably looking at 6-10 years from now). If Tennessee wants to pony up some cash to bring the train to Tennessee (I'd love to see it connect Nashville and Memphis), Amtrak will listen.


I think the right way to get new Amtrak trains to cross state lines is not to focus on state funding, but instead to focus on coming up with a collection of routes that will add service in 40+ states to try to get through Congress to get federal funding. (I might even say 48 states, but I haven't figured out what new conventional speed Amtrak service Rhode Island wants; Rhode Island mostly needs more track capacity for more commuter rail.)

However, I also suspect that a daytime train originating at NYP (should NYP be chosen as the point of origin instead of WAS) in the morning and heading south through Roanoke will find Bristol pretty close to a natural stopping point in the evening from a scheduling perspective anyway. NYP-Knoxville as a daytime train might be getting a bit long; on the other hand, it probably would have better ridership than NYP-Bristol.

The Norfolk Southern system map indicates that NS has Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis track, but no Nashville. On the one hand, it's entirely possible that not all NS track is already up to reasonable passenger standards, and it is possible that another railroad does have Nashville track in good condition; on the other hand, NS seems to be a lot more willing to have new passenger service on its tracks than some other railroads.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jan 18, 2010)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > > But if an extension to Roanoke is in the works, why stop there? Push on to Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Memphis......!!!
> ...



The former Southern RR (now NS) never did have any service at all to or in Nashville Southern did go Knoxville,Chattanooga,Huntsville, Memphis.

The Tennessee Central, a small road long gone at least by that name, had service from Knoxville to Nashville. (skipping Chattanooga)

The service from Nashville to Memphis was on what would now be CSX if still operating. In the railroad past it was the Louisville and Nashville RR(and before that, the Nashville Chattanooga and St. Louis RR)

For many years there was a through overnight sleeper from Bristol to Nashville on Southern RR "Tennessean". That train went from Washington to Memphis, with through pullman from NYC to Memphis.

But that sleeper was put on in Bristol. In Chattanooga it was switched to another train on another railroad out of the other station. It as put on an L&N train to go on to Nashville.

Thus, the Tenneseean was fudamentally a train to Chattanooga and Memphis, but it did have that one through sleeper from Bristol to Nashville switched to L&N every night in Chattanooga.

Before my time it might have come all the way from Washington or even NYC rather than just from Bristol, I am not sure.


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## acelafan (Feb 16, 2010)

The success on the Lynchburg NE Regional continues...136% above projected ridership for November. Will these results continue?

News article link



> RICHMOND — Lynchburg’s honeymoon with Amtrak continued in November, producing enough riders on the new train that started in October to generate a profit in its second month of operation.
> 
> Virginia had planned to provide a $242,000 monthly subsidy to keep the train running. It won’t need any of that money for November.
> 
> ...


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## rrdude (Feb 16, 2010)

Boy, it's amazing what a little nugget of "good news" does for Amtrak, at least in my feeble mind.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Feb 17, 2010)

Have they considered adding a second frequency yet?


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## Rafi (Feb 18, 2010)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Have they considered adding a second frequency yet?


That's not the next step, as far as I'm aware. After all, there are already two frequencies each day LYH-NYP and three a day on Sun, Wed, Fri between CVS and NYP (counting the Cardinal). The next step would be an extension to Roanoke. Beyond that, it's up to the state as to what they want to do. Ideas that have been floated by Virginia proponents of rail (elected, non-profit, private, etc) are:

-Extend to Bristol

-Extend LYH-Richmond

-Extend CVS-Richmond

...or any combination thereof.

This is all conjecture at this point. Technically speaking, the service is in a trial phase right now. If Virginia likes what it sees, then they have the option to continue the existing service and possibly extend service to Roanoke.

Rafi


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## jis (Feb 18, 2010)

Maybe they should start by filling in the remaining four days with a short turn train on the Cardinal schedule to CVS, sort of similar to what happens at the other end of the Card with Hoosier State. That should be a relatively low cost filler thing to make service more predictable daily one on that additional frequency.


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## Palmland (Feb 18, 2010)

Rafi said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> > Have they considered adding a second frequency yet?
> ...


It's nice to see that two adjoining states, NC and VA, are developing good intra-state passenger rail programs. But isn't this where a national system really makes sense - to promote interstate passenger rail between states that might not otherwise work together.

It would seem that a daylight train between Washington and Charlotte via Charlottesville, Lynchburg, and Greensboro would be on someone's radar screen. Rather than working separately with each state, Amtrak should help develop service between two or more neighboring states through the states' passenger rail programs. With coordination from Amtrak's national level, the states could do a better job than Amtrak (more cost effective, better local marketing, minimal studies/more action) of progressing the cause of regional service. They just need someone to make them sit at the same table.


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## SouthernServesTheSouth (Feb 18, 2010)

What will happen with the ridership numbers when the special fares end shortly? Will people stop riding when the discount is removed?


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## Michael061282 (Feb 18, 2010)

Palmland said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> ...


Living in Richmond, what I'd like to know is when is the new RVR-DC-NYP service that was supposed to start in December going to begin


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## Rafi (Feb 19, 2010)

Michael061282 said:


> Living in Richmond, what I'd like to know is when is the new RVR-DC-NYP service that was supposed to start in December going to begin


Just to be clear, this will not be a new service as much as it will be a new frequency. Last I heard, August is being targeted, but as we've seen, dates can slip.

Rafi


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## Joel N. Weber II (Feb 19, 2010)

jis said:


> Maybe they should start by filling in the remaining four days with a short turn train on the Cardinal schedule to CVS, sort of similar to what happens at the other end of the Card with Hoosier State. That should be a relatively low cost filler thing to make service more predictable daily one on that additional frequency.


But I thought the theory was that the Hoosier State was scheduled primarily for the benefit of non-revenue equipment moves between Beach Grove and Chicago. There's no maintenance shop near CVS that I'm aware of...

I also think they should just make the Cardinal daily. It probably only requires one more set (assuming the set that arrives in CHI in the morning can turn around and go back out that evening), and a daily Cardinal with two coaches per set could carry more coach passengers per week than a three day a week Cardinal with three coaches per set, so in some sense they don't strictly speaking need any more coaches; the two existing sets could each give a coach to the new third set. They just need one of those P40s refurbished with the stimulus money, and a refurbished prototype Viewliner Sleeper, and they need one of the food service cars refurbished with the stimulus money to somehow displace a Diner Lite elsewhere in the system that can be made available to the Cardinal, assuming that there aren't any Diner Lites coming out of the stimulus repairs.

What fraction of the equipment being brought back into service by the stimulus money is actually in service at the moment?


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## Joel N. Weber II (Feb 19, 2010)

Rafi said:


> That's not the next step, as far as I'm aware. After all, there are already two frequencies each day LYH-NYP and three a day on Sun, Wed, Fri between CVS and NYP (counting the Cardinal). The next step would be an extension to Roanoke. Beyond that, it's up to the state as to what they want to do. Ideas that have been floated by Virginia proponents of rail (elected, non-profit, private, etc) are:-Extend to Bristol
> 
> -Extend LYH-Richmond
> 
> ...


I thought it was the case that there had been essentially no formal negotiation of either Roanoke service or any of the other options, and that the main advantage Roanoke has over the other options is that it more clearly does not need additional rolling stock, and the railroad is already in good shape and has some maintenance infrastructure in Roanoke already, such that it is not clear that much physical construction would be necessary other than platforms. But it seems to me that Virginia and Amtrak haven't really negotiated anything that formally commits them to prefer Roanoke over the other options if they were to become focused on other options. (And even if they had signed a contract, couldn't they back out of it if for some reason they came to a mutual agreement to change the plan?)

Is Norfolk service in the picture at all? (I seem to recall that it would require some substantial track upgrades, and a station.)


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 19, 2010)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> But I thought the theory was that the Hoosier State was scheduled primarily for the benefit of non-revenue equipment moves between Beach Grove and Chicago. There's no maintenance shop near CVS that I'm aware of...


It is scheduled for the benefit of Indianapolis residents going to Chicago and vice versa. Its a long-distance commuter train, from what I understand. Indiana pays for it, in anycase.


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## Rafi (Feb 20, 2010)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> I thought it was the case that there had been essentially no formal negotiation of either Roanoke service or any of the other options, and that the main advantage Roanoke has over the other options is that it more clearly does not need additional rolling stock, and the railroad is already in good shape and has some maintenance infrastructure in Roanoke already, such that it is not clear that much physical construction would be necessary other than platforms. But it seems to me that Virginia and Amtrak haven't really negotiated anything that formally commits them to prefer Roanoke over the other options if they were to become focused on other options. (And even if they had signed a contract, couldn't they back out of it if for some reason they came to a mutual agreement to change the plan?)
> Is Norfolk service in the picture at all? (I seem to recall that it would require some substantial track upgrades, and a station.)


I haven't seen the actual contract, Joel, so I can't comment on whether Roanoke is actually mentioned by name. But if Virginia were to ignore Roanoke as an extension option, there would be a lot of taps on the shoulder, as it were, from both Amtrak and other entities. From what I hear, though, Virginia knows Roanoke is the next logical stop for that train.

Norfolk is in the picture, but as part of a completely different project right now--the high speed rail project from DC to Richmond to Petersburg to downtown Norfolk.

Rafi


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## Joel N. Weber II (Feb 23, 2010)

Rafi said:


> Norfolk is in the picture, but as part of a completely different project right now--the high speed rail project from DC to Richmond to Petersburg to downtown Norfolk.


Is that high speed like Ohio's 79 MPH service, or high speed like the 250 MPH the Californians are pursuing?

I'm wondering if building a new 250 MPH alignment to replace most of the existing 44 miles from Ashland to Fredericksburg would make sense. It's 44 minutes now; depending on exactly how fast the train accelerates and decelerates, how much of the existing alignment was kept at the edges of the cities, and whether the new alignment were to reduce the number of miles, that might save close to a half hour of travel time over the current schedule. It would be interesting to know how much a new 250 MPH alignment to replace those 44 miles would cost compared to the cost of the Big Dig.


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## WhoozOn1st (Feb 23, 2010)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> I'm wondering if building a new 250 MPH alignment to replace most of the existing 44 miles from Ashland to Fredericksburg would make sense.


Not gonna go into the HSR deal at the moment, but good to see you posting again, Joel. You were missed for awhile.


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## MattW (Mar 22, 2010)

Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975

[EDIT]: I should also note that I did not take this picture, I just ran across it on Railpictures.net


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## rrdude (Mar 22, 2010)

MattW said:


> Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975



I'm very confused. What could they possibly be researching with a gon and and old heavyweight?

Nice pix btw.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 22, 2010)

rrdude said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975
> ...


Yeah, that's pretty interesting. Two KCS locomotives, a gon and the research car. It could be some kind of testing track for passenger trains, but it could also involve testing the locomotives or maybe the gon. We'll have to see what develops.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Mar 22, 2010)

rrdude said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975
> ...



The heavyweight is probably a business car. If only we could see the rear it probably has an open platform observation which was common for business cars. The last two windows look large, such as would have been typical of a lounge.

That would be relatively common type of car to use for an inspection run. In fact, I guess it may be the only car used for such service, unless perhaps a caboose. Probably has food and beds inside.


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## wayman (Mar 22, 2010)

rrdude said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975
> ...


The freight car may be fitted out with track telemetry equipment of some sort. Though I'm not sure why they'd use an open-top car for that instead of a box car. So perhaps it's just there to provide extra weight for the train, or a buffer to reduce the engine noise in the business car by a bit.


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## rrdude (Mar 22, 2010)

wayman said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > MattW said:
> ...


I've never seen a gon doing duty as a Track Geometry Car B4, but your "buffer" idea has merit. I'd really like to know why these KCS de MEXICO, engines, and this weird consist was rolling 'tween Roanoke and Lynchburg.


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## Rafi (Mar 30, 2010)

MattW said:


> Not sure if this means anything about extension to Roanoke, but there an NS research train went roundtrip Roanoke-Lynchburg: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=317975
> [EDIT]: I should also note that I did not take this picture, I just ran across it on Railpictures.net


As a followup, here's a story off of Trains' newswire today that I believe explains the sighting:



> NORFOLK, Va. — Kansas City Southern SD22ECO locomotives are on their way to Norfolk Southern's Roanoke, Va., terminal to undergo operational testing. NS Assistant Vice President Mechanical Don Graab told TRAINS News Wire the diesels will be tested for possible use in mother-slug sets.
> Electro-Motive Diesel introduced its SD22ECO and GP22ECO models in 2008. They use older-model EMD diesel bodies, but employ new engines that meet Environmental Protection Agency Tier-2 standards. KCS rosters 27 units of the two models.
> 
> Graab said the borrowed KCS units will undergo tractive effort tests at the Roanoke terminal.
> ...


Rafi


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## acelafan (Nov 18, 2010)

Here is a short recap about the tremendous success of Amtrak's NE Regional Service to Lynchburg in its first full fiscal year....it's encouraging to see news like this! 

(Courtesy of Progressive Railroading Daily News)

"During fiscal-year 2010, which ended Sept. 30, the Lynchburg train carried 126,072 passengers, exceeding its goal of 51,000 riders by 147.2 percent. The service also generated $6.33 million in revenue, well surpassing its $2.58 million goal."

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/prdailynews/news.asp?id=25090

Way to go, Lynchburger!


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## SouthernServesTheSouth (Nov 18, 2010)

The Lynchburg newspaper had two articles concerning the Northeast Regional. One about ridership the other on a proposal to have a bus from Roanoke, Blacksburg to Lynchburg. Hope you can get his web site to work.

http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2010/nov/17/bus-service-roanoke-area-kemper-street-station-stu-ar-660423/

http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2010/nov/17/lynchburg-train-beats-ridership-goals-first-year-ar-660436/


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## Ryan (Nov 19, 2010)

And, there's no good news without the bad:

http://www.nbc29.com/story/13532143/funding-gap-could-close-amtrak-route


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## Anderson (Nov 19, 2010)

Ryan said:


> And, there's no good news without the bad:
> 
> http://www.nbc29.com...se-amtrak-route


Oh, for crying out loud! The budgeted subsidies could cover this thing for five years, and the way traffic is going, it could probably turn a profit given a few years!


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## Anderson (Nov 20, 2010)

Alright, I hate to ask this but it's the only place I know of to ask: What is the Lynchburg run costing, total? Considering that it was 136% above projected in November 2009 (if I read that article right) and that turned a profit, and that it ended the year at 161.7% of budget, and that the run clocked out with over $7.5 million in revenue...you're talking about close to 175 people per train, assuming that the Lynchburg-DC route on the charts only counts the once-daily run. If it includes the Cardinal as well, assume that the 20% lower revenue figure I've seen quoted also carries over to passenger stats, you're still looking at 106,000 total, or 145 per run.

By the way, the rumor in Charlottesville that I've seen is that they're looking to make the Cardinal daily as the next stage.

As to the 2015 figure...Virginia's DoT works on a six-year cycle, which is to blame for that figure. I'll certainly be chatting with my delegate about this (and I'll probably be some sort of staff on a State Senate campaign this coming fall), so...let's keep our fingers crossed, but I think if a good case can be made that VA just needs to put a small amount out per year as backup funding for the Lynchburg line (and the point can probably be made that simply leaving the subsidy allotment that was initially made in place would suffice...if they set aside $240k a month, that's about $3m for the year...and if the line barely touched that and looks to run a profit in FY2011, I think the state could be willing to put some "insurance money" in for the line to stay open), the line will stick around and get expanded.

What Amtrak should probably do, though, is kill the Thruway line to/from CVS/WAS and move the buses to a Roanoke/LYH run or something similar.


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## Ryan (Nov 20, 2010)

Anderson said:


> By the way, the rumor in Charlottesville that I've seen is that they're looking to make the Cardinal daily as the next stage.


That's more than just a rumor, Amtrak published a route improvement plan that proposed to do exactly that a few months ago (look for it here, it was discussed).


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## AlanB (Nov 20, 2010)

Anderson said:


> Alright, I hate to ask this but it's the only place I know of to ask: What is the Lynchburg run costing, total? Considering that it was 136% above projected in November 2009 (if I read that article right) and that turned a profit, and that it ended the year at 161.7% of budget, and that the run clocked out with over $7.5 million in revenue...you're talking about close to 175 people per train, assuming that the Lynchburg-DC route on the charts only counts the once-daily run. If it includes the Cardinal as well, assume that the 20% lower revenue figure I've seen quoted also carries over to passenger stats, you're still looking at 106,000 total, or 145 per run.


Revenue for the first year was $7.8 Million against expenses of $5.7 Million. That comes with a caveot however.

First, Amtrak in response to critcism and input from Congress is busy redoing how they calculate and report expenses. That started this past fiscal year, 2010, with how the monthly reports are formatted. One of the bigger issues over the years has been how Amtrak handles depreciation and the value of its equipment and the value of capital improvement.

The new charts provide a column called Capital charges. At present the reports are not providing any expenses in this column as Amtrak revamps their accounting practices. So the $2.1M profit reflected above will most likely decrease some once Amtrak gets that Capital charge included. I don't believe that it should turn the train from a money maker into a loser, but I've no doubt that the profit will decrease some.


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## George Harris (Nov 20, 2010)

AlanB said:


> I don't believe that it should turn the train from a money maker into a loser, but I've no doubt that the profit will decrease some.


Don't remember the details, but Amtrak financial manipulation did manage to turn the LA to San Diego service from money generator to money loser a few years back.

Also, do not know the accuracy of this, but have heard that some of the Northeast Corridor costs are spread systemwide, including to trains that never see the NEC.


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## Eric S (Nov 20, 2010)

Anderson said:


> What Amtrak should probably do, though, is kill the Thruway line to/from CVS/WAS and move the buses to a Roanoke/LYH run or something similar.


Isn't that Thruway bus just a regular Greyhound run that accepts Amtrak Thruway tickets, rather than a dedicated Thruway bus that could presumably be redeployed to a different run?


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## PaulM (Nov 22, 2010)

rrdude said:


> I'd really like to know why these KCS de MEXICO, engines, and this weird consist was rolling 'tween Roanoke and Lynchburg.


Just curious. Does the color scheme make it "de Mexico"? A couple of days ago I saw several engines with the same color scheme pulling a load of grain cars northbound on the BNSF just south of St. Joe, MO. Instead of the KCS name and logo, they had TFM on them. (I guess it stands for Transportación Ferroviaria Mexicana).


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## Anderson (Nov 22, 2010)

Eric S said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > What Amtrak should probably do, though, is kill the Thruway line to/from CVS/WAS and move the buses to a Roanoke/LYH run or something similar.
> ...


Good point...still, I'm surprised the Cardinal lists a Greyhound run from CVS-WAS considering that the train makes the same run.


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## Eric S (Nov 22, 2010)

Anderson said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


There do seem to be a few oddities in where Thruway schedules are listed, or more specifically which individual train/service schedule lists which Thruway services.


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## AlanB (Nov 22, 2010)

Anderson said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


Because the Cardinal only runs 3 days per week.


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## Anderson (Nov 22, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Eric S said:
> ...


True, though I guess the counter-question is "And now that they have not only the regional running that route but will probably be adding a daily Cardinal..." Though the latter hasn't taken effect, I know.


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## Richmond, Virginian (Dec 21, 2010)

mkellerm said:


> The Lynchburg train ridership figures for October to December are now available from various files on the Amtrak website.
> 
> October: 8,585
> 
> ...


I know this is kind of an old post to be responding to, but it's still relevant considering the upcoming 2013 Norfolk service. My question is: Where on the Amtrak website did you find files showing figures broken down by station by train? I would _love_ to have this information for comparing riders on trains that stop at both of Richmond's stations, RVR and RVM.


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## AlanB (Dec 21, 2010)

Richmond said:


> mkellerm said:
> 
> 
> > The Lynchburg train ridership figures for October to December are now available from various files on the Amtrak website.
> ...


Boardings/alightings by station can be found on the State Fact Sheets found here. Ridership numbers by route can be found in the Monthly Performance reports located at the bottom of this page.


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## Richmond, Virginia n (Dec 21, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Richmond said:
> 
> 
> > mkellerm said:
> ...


Thank you Alan. I found those earlier today and I've been going over. The state pages I've seen before, and while they do give ridership by station for FY2009/2010, they lack ridership by station by train. For instance, on a given train, how many boardings and alightings per station? Specifically, on train 66 for example, how many boardings/alightings at Staples Mill, how many at Main Street.

In the monthly reports, yes there is route performance data, but still not the details I want.

Why do I want this? I'm trying to see passeners' preference for Staples Mill versus Main Street when given the option, considering the fact that most Richmond trains only go to Staples Mill.

All I'm getting is that Main Street gets about 1/10 the boardings/alightings as Staples Mill, with about 1/5 as many trains.


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## Anderson (Dec 24, 2010)

Richmond said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Richmond said:
> ...


Well, here's one thing to remember: A not insignificant number of people take the train NPN/WBG-RVR and then change to another train. That said, remember: RVM only has the two (or three) regionals. RVR also has the Silvers, the Palmetto, and the Carolinian, all of which run south. Anyone leaving Richmond for the Carolinas, Georgia, or Florida has to use RVR instead of RVM.

There's another wrinkle, too: The NPN-WAS Regional runs through RVR at about 11 AM and hits DC at 1:30. You've got trains on the hour every hour at RVR from 5:00-8:00 AM; the 6:00 AM gets you to DC at 8:15 AM. The last train to NPN (which goes through RVM) leaves DC mid-afternoon most days (2:30 PM); you've got 5 later options to get to RVR. So...going through RVR allows you to catch a train up, spend a full day in DC, and catch a train back (or catch one back the next day, having spent two full days in DC). RVM simply doesn't have that option.

To illustrate this, if I have the choice of catching the train from NPN-WAS and then continuing on, or driving to RVR and catching the train from there, I'm often inclined to do the latter because of the return options (I don't consider driving to WAS an option because of the parking costs, as I learned a few years ago...I'll do that if it's a weekend train to Chicago or an Acela up north for a weekend, but nothing more).


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## Big Iron (Jan 4, 2011)

Below is a link to a news article about the possible bus extension from Lynchburg to Roanoke. Also a blurb about extending the bus to Blacksburg. I'm not so sure they have underestimated the number of travelers to Blacksburg. Something for further discussion perhaps.

http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2011/jan/03/senator-roanoke-bus-link-lynchburg-train-feasible-ar-750864/


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## Anderson (Jan 4, 2011)

I think they're shooting low, but I'm not sure how low. 10 per day in each direction would be 7300 rides per year. That said, special Blacksburg-Lynchburg (or Blacksburg-Lexington, depending on the time of day you want to work with...the simple timing of the Lynchburger versus the Cardinal makes the bus an unattractive) connections would make sense at the _very_ least when school is in session, and particularly surrounding breaks.

To explain: Your last train leaves LYH at 7:40 AM. For Blacksburg, this means you're looking at a bus departure before 6 AM. Your first train back arrives at 8:36 PM. That means you're getting back to campus at 10:30 PM. This sort of service is dubious at best when compared with the vaguely convenient noon departure and 4:00 arrival in Clifton Forge...add on two hours for bus service (LYH and CLF are about the same distance from Roanoke) and you're looking at a 10 AM departure and a 6 PM return...let me say very clearly that in a college market, a 6 AM departure is a non-starter if there's not an all-night party preceding it.

Another proposal to punt around: Could a Harrisonburg-CVS or Harrisonburg-Staunton linked bus service, at least at breaks, be a seller? Harrisonburg is about 40 minutes from Staunton and the Cardinal and about 1:10 from Charlottesville (and thrice-daily service).


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## Big Iron (Jan 4, 2011)

Anderson said:


> I think they're shooting low, but I'm not sure how low. 10 per day in each direction would be 7300 rides per year. That said, special Blacksburg-Lynchburg (or Blacksburg-Lexington, depending on the time of day you want to work with...the simple timing of the Lynchburger versus the Cardinal makes the bus an unattractive) connections would make sense at the _very_ least when school is in session, and particularly surrounding breaks.
> 
> To explain: Your last train leaves LYH at 7:40 AM. For Blacksburg, this means you're looking at a bus departure before 6 AM. Your first train back arrives at 8:36 PM. That means you're getting back to campus at 10:30 PM. This sort of service is dubious at best when compared with the vaguely convenient noon departure and 4:00 arrival in Clifton Forge...add on two hours for bus service (LYH and CLF are about the same distance from Roanoke) and you're looking at a 10 AM departure and a 6 PM return...let me say very clearly that in a college market, a 6 AM departure is a non-starter if there's not an all-night party preceding it.
> 
> Another proposal to punt around: Could a Harrisonburg-CVS or Harrisonburg-Staunton linked bus service, at least at breaks, be a seller? Harrisonburg is about 40 minutes from Staunton and the Cardinal and about 1:10 from Charlottesville (and thrice-daily service).


Regarding a 6 AM departure, a true Tech student would just party until someone poured them on the bus :lol:

In the early 80's I would take the bus from Harrisonburg back to home in Richmond. Then the Hound would go from Harrisonburg to Staunton and then connect to Trailways from Staunton to Richmond. The Trailways stopped in Waynesboro and Charlottesville before reaching Richmond. I read a few years back that Greyhound cancelled the bus that ran from Roanoke to DC which eliminated bus serviced from the Valley to Richmond. I haven't checked their timetable to see if the bus is back. There are still two/three busses eachway from CVS to RVR.


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## Anderson (Jan 4, 2011)

Point taken on the true Tech student. William and Mary was also far more tame...and also more accessible via the WBG station three to four blocks from campus. I once caught a train back to campus from a Model UN conference gone bad.

CVS-RVR isn't the issue; it's Harrisonburg to CVS/Staunton. It _might_ be worth looking into whether the school would be willing to look into some sort of shuttle deal: William and Mary did airport shuttles as far as Norfolk and Richmond (PHF is a mediocre airport), and school vans were used.


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