# Elimination of diners on western Amtrak long distance trains?



## TinCan782 (Jun 24, 2018)

Anyone hear of this (from other sources)?



> Amtrak OBS employees have received new menus for November 2018. The elimination of chefs is said to be coming in fall 2018 for some western long distance trains including the Southwest Chief. The new Southwest Chief sleeping car passenger meal menus for November 2018 have cold sandwiches, akin to the June 2018 Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited no-chef cold food menus.



https://www.scivision.co/amtrak-southwest-chief-drastic-service-cuts/

I don't know anything about the source...stumbled across it while searching for things related to the SWC. Not surprised, however.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 24, 2018)

This is getting scarey, Propeller Head and his Airline Crew are running wild with their "New and Improved" schemes on Am Air!

Imagine, Box meals on the 2 and 3 night LD Western Trains and Bustitutions on the Chief Route!!!

Say it ain't so Joe!


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## cpotisch (Jun 24, 2018)

Oh my god. This has been confirmed? I'm glad I took my first coast to coast train trip this year - it might well have been my last.


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## tricia (Jun 24, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Oh my god. This has been confirmed? I'm glad I took my first coast to coast train trip this year - it might well have been my last.


No, it hasn't been confirmed. OP is asking if anyone here CAN confirm it, from other sources.


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## greatcats (Jun 24, 2018)

A conductor related this to me last month west of Dodge City. I regarded it as rumor, but he seemed well informed.


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jun 24, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Propeller Head and his Airline Crew are running wild with their "New and Improved" schemes on Am Air!


Am Air? That name does not stand out. I'm suggesting that Amway Air sounds like a better name. Oh wait, we used to have an Am Air, known as Pan American. Of course, Juan Trippe was way better than Anderson of Delta. Looks like the Kochs hired Anderson.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jun 24, 2018)

Woooow. This is the end of Amtrak as we know it, if this happens. I hope this plan gets stopped somehow.

I hope this is just an unfounded rumor.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 24, 2018)

Well, if the SWC is going to get broken up into train-bus-train segments, it might make sense to do this. This doesn't mean it is planned for the other western LDs.


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## zepherdude (Jun 24, 2018)

why book Amtrak at all, Just Go Greyhound


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## TinCan782 (Jun 24, 2018)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, if the SWC is going to get broken up into train-bus-train segments, it might make sense to do this. This doesn't mean it is planned for the other western LDs.


That did cross my mind.


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## greatcats (Jun 24, 2018)

Disgust. I’m setting off on a 3+ week road trip to Montana and over the border into Montana. Amtrak not involved, except for perhaps viewing the Empire Builder around Glacier. Phooey. My own itinerary and schedule. [emoji849]


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## greatcats (Jun 24, 2018)

Into Canada.


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 24, 2018)

In the linked article, there was the mention of "reduced conductor staffing on LD trains". How could this be possible? Each train, LD or not, needs a Conductor. Doesn't it? My view is that this linked article contains "fake news".


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## greatcats (Jun 24, 2018)

There should be a conductor and assistant conductor. It might mean that crew districts are being rearranged.


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## merkelman06 (Jun 24, 2018)

Wonder if this would be why Amtrak is running its first ever sleeper sale that I can remember? They know the fallout that would happen and want to lock in as many reservations as possible before the announcement.


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## TinCan782 (Jun 24, 2018)

Dakota 400 said:


> In the linked article, there was the mention of "reduced conductor staffing on LD trains". How could this be possible? Each train, LD or not, needs a Conductor. Doesn't it? My view is that this linked article contains "fake news".


Yep, gotta have a conductor! I'm thinking he used the wrong term...perhaps he meant service staff when he said "conductor".


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 24, 2018)

I'm not up on the Current requirements for Conductors on LD Trains, nor the agreement their Union has with AmwayAir( like that name,thanks bmjhagen9426), but if they can swing it, the Anderson Air Raiders will probably try to get by with 1 Conductor and 0 ACs on some LD Trains.

What's next, Self driving trains so they can eliminate the pricey Engineers??


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## acelafan (Jun 24, 2018)

I hate to panic over rumors, but that would really stink. Me and hubby are supposed to take the SW Chief in February CHI>LAX. A bus bridge and elimination of traditional dining service really makes the cost of the tickets we bought much less desirable. RPA/NARP, I hope you can rescue us!


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## TinCan782 (Jun 24, 2018)

Mr. Hirsch states: "_The new Southwest Chief sleeping car passenger meal menus for November 2018 have cold sandwiches, akin to the June 2018 Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited no-chef cold food menus." _November 2018...just in time for holiday travel.

We shall see when the so-called November 2018. menus are put in place.

Hoping this would mean my CHI>LAX trip on #3 in October is safe!

How does he know about new menus for November?


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 24, 2018)

Amtrak is under congressional mandate to eliminate food and beverage losses. Did you think the western trains would be exempt? Contact your congressmen and senators and raise holy hell.


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## TinCan782 (Jun 24, 2018)

MikefromCrete said:


> Amtrak is under congressional mandate to eliminate food and beverage losses. Did you think the western trains would be exempt? Contact your congressmen and senators and raise holy hell.


Yes, I know that and no, I didn't think western LD trains would be exempt, and yes,I have written to my representatives and will again this week.


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## cpotisch (Jun 24, 2018)

merkelman06 said:


> Wonder if this would be why Amtrak is running its first ever sleeper sale that I can remember? They know the fallout that would happen and want to lock in as many reservations as possible before the announcement.


I guess that's possible, but if so, that would be a pretty scummy move on Amtrak's part. It was also mentioned in another thread that there was some indication that Amtrak was trying to replace their discounted fares for certain kinds of passengers (AAA discount, Student discount, etc.) with targeted discounts and sales.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 24, 2018)

Do you hate Anderson and Gardner yet? I've been warning you since April that these two are trouble. The worst has yet to come.


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## Pere Flyer (Jun 24, 2018)

zepherdude said:


> why book Amtrak at all, Just Go Greyhound


At least with the Hound, you know what you’re getting, and GLI knows what you’re expecting!


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## Palmetto (Jun 24, 2018)

zepherdude said:


> why book Amtrak at all, Just Go Greyhound


And that's what they're hoping. That way, they can cite reduced ridership as a reason for a train-off.


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## benale (Jun 24, 2018)

Good God! I hope this is just a rumor. Please get rid of this scumbag Richard Anderson!


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## frequentflyer (Jun 24, 2018)

Not suprised if this comes true. That LD fleet replacement order is getting smaller and smaller.


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## railiner (Jun 24, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> > why book Amtrak at all, Just Go Greyhound
> ...


For anyone not familiar with the way Greyhound has been going, it may not be around much longer as an alternative, either...every schedule change abandons more routes, and its UK owner wants to get rid of it...


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jun 24, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Do you hate Anderson and Gardner yet? I've been warning you since April that these two are trouble. The worst has yet to come.


I think that I'm starting to see what you mean. Time for some writing. I would call these two as the Koch's Raiders. Anderson may be a former airline CEO, but with Koch, I would say that although the recent changes resembles that of the airline, it does not fit the whole picture. There must be a bigger agenda, a Grand Plan by the Koch Bros, perhaps, to reduce Amtrak and take away passenger rail travel and congest the highways, roadways, and the airspace. Just by seeing the rail project fundings not being allocated due to wastefulness but instead allocated to highways, roadways, and airports seems unusual. Are there anything that a rail traveler like myself can do, to defeat or delay these detrimental changes?


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## Caesar La Rock (Jun 24, 2018)

You'll be lucky Greyhound doesn't go out first before Amtrak gets a chance too. It's been years since Amtrak discontinued a route. As for the possible scenario with Diners, contacting senators and representatives is a good idea.


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jun 24, 2018)

Caesar La Rock said:


> It's been years since Amtrak discontinued a route.


Might I ask what route has been discontinued most recently (other than Sunset Ltd NOLA-Orlando, which is considered suspended)?


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 24, 2018)

bmjhagen9426 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you hate Anderson and Gardner yet? I've been warning you since April that these two are trouble. The worst has yet to come.
> ...


Be vocal that's what you do. Educate your congressman, and the candidates this year attempting to get those seats. Talk to neighboring districts. Talk to mayors, and everyone that could potentially have a vested interest in the trains. In your town K Falls that can be quite an assortment of people.

When you consider that K Falls has people coming several hours away to catch the train. You have all businesses in the city having some sort of economic impact. For instance when I drive to catch my train in my SC home I drive over an hour one way to get to the station. So often times my ride and I will make a day of it. So we go early get lunch or dinner. And depending if my entire family comes (sometimes because I'm gone for sometimes months at a time) that can be a bill of over a hundred dollars at a sit down place.

Don't forget people driving to pick a person up or drop someone off oftentimes have to purchase gas. Which means the train has an effect on the gas purchases, and food now. Which if you want to get bigger picture you could include the supply chain to get the products to the consumer. Eventually this gets you to a point where every persons life in a small town is positively affected by a passenger train existing.

Now a lot of people don't like my arguments because it's too big picture but there is truth in it. For every passenger coming to a town it has a butterfly effect. So tell your mayor, city council, gas station owner, trucker, nurse, Doctor, waiter, store owner, etc... Anyone who is in that town even if they don't use the train has a vested interest in the train surviving as it effects them indirectly or directly.

It's national or no Gateway Tunnel.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 24, 2018)

I've actually served the Koch Brothers before. They don't exactly hate trains. And they tip really really well. But that's about all I can comment on about a former client.


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 24, 2018)

The Koch Brothers are behind recent efforts to defeat transit referenda around the country, including Nashville. They don't want to spend any tax money on transit, which I imagine includes Amtrak.


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## caravanman (Jun 25, 2018)

When you have the guy who sued the EPA now actually in charge of the EPA's rollback, why be surprised by anything?

AmwayAir? More like Plummet Airlines, methinks...

Ed.


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## Caesar La Rock (Jun 25, 2018)

bmjhagen9426 said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> > It's been years since Amtrak discontinued a route.
> ...


That was in reference to Greyhound discontinuing routes at a rapid pace compared to the last time Amtrak had to discontinue a route, which was the Three Rivers back in 2005. Basically I was stating that at the rate things are going, Greyhound would be the first to go before Amtrak does.


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## Palmetto (Jun 25, 2018)

benale said:


> Good God! I hope this is just a rumor. Please get rid of this scumbag Richard Anderson!


No, please get rid of the law which mandates that the railroad break even. Mr. Anderson is following the law. As has been stated so many times here and elsewhere, blow your horn at your government reps.


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jun 25, 2018)

Caesar La Rock said:


> bmjhagen9426 said:
> 
> 
> > Caesar La Rock said:
> ...


If Greyhound bites the dust sooner, how are people getting to places like Las Vegas, Boise, Colorado Springs, Columbus, or Phoenix?


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## frequentflyer (Jun 25, 2018)

railiner said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > zepherdude said:
> ...


I thought Greyhound was finished retrenching. Mega Bus and Peter Pan has done a job on Greyhound. As a matter of fact, the media was telling us the same millenniasl responsible for Amtrak's growth were also flocking to buses too. I guess not Greyhound.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-05-31/greyhound-buses-are-a-3-5-billion-ride-to-nowhere


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## Maverickstation (Jun 25, 2018)

One fact that lends some credibility to this, is the issue that the LD menus were not changed for their usual Spring/Summer rotation/update.


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## cpotisch (Jun 25, 2018)

bmjhagen9426 said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> > It's been years since Amtrak discontinued a route.
> ...


Three Rivers


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 25, 2018)

Here is the message from Amtrak Media Relations. "We are evaluating the success of our new food offerings," Marc Magliari Amtrak media relations.

Personally if you ask me it sounds to me like they've made their mind up that the new crap is a massive success. And I'm sure it is to the balance sheet but not to the passengers. Let's face it to Anderson and Gardner we don't matter only the ink on the ledger does.


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## TiBike (Jun 25, 2018)

I've said it before: I'm looking forward to seeing the new food service on the Starlight. It will be nice to get a decent meal.


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 25, 2018)

The Koch Brothers keep cropping up in some of the posts on this thread. Please forgive my ignorance, but why? What's their connection to Amtrak?


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## stappend (Jun 25, 2018)

Dakota 400 said:


> The Koch Brothers keep cropping up in some of the posts on this thread. Please forgive my ignorance, but why? What's their connection to Amtrak?


They generally fight all things Public transit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 25, 2018)

Dakota 400 said:


> The Koch Brothers keep cropping up in some of the posts on this thread. Please forgive my ignorance, but why? What's their connection to Amtrak?


The Koch Brothers, who use their billions to push their own personal conservative agenda, were recently featured in a New York Times article about their efforts to fight mass transit referenda across the nation, including the recent defeat of transit expansion in Nashville. They made a lot of their money off the automobile industry. While none of this is directly related to Amtrak, you can bet they'll be spending their fortunes to back candidates who aren't friendly to transit, including Amtrak.


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## cpotisch (Jun 25, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Here is the message from Amtrak Media Relations. "We are evaluating the success of our new food offerings," Marc Magliari Amtrak media relations.


Of course. They just couldn't bear saying "We are evaluating the effects of our new food offerings" or something like that. It's not a big deal, but it just irks me given it seems like most people are not in favor of it. If this spreads to the two or three night trains, I literally won't be able to take them. I can possibly deal with "Contemporary dining" on a relatively short overnight run like the LSL or Capitol, but having one option for breakfast and one option for lunch/dinner over the course of six or more meals just is not doable for me. If the menu were identical to that of the CL and LSL, this is what I'd be eating if I took the eastbound Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle all the way.


Meal 1 - Breakfast - Blueberry Muffin, Banana bread, fruit, Kashi/Kind bars
Meal 2 - Lunch - Vegan wrap, quinoa edamame salad
Meal 3 - Dinner - Vegan wrap, quinoa edamame salad
Meal 4 - Breakfast - Blueberry Muffin, Banana bread, fruit, Kashi/Kind bars
Meal 5 - Lunch - Vegan wrap, quinoa edamame salad
Meal 6 - Dinner - Vegan wrap, quinoa edamame salad
Meal 7 - Breakfast - Blueberry Muffin, Banana bread, fruit, Kashi/Kind bars
Meal 8 - Lunch - Vegan wrap, quinoa edamame salad
I don't want to eat that way for three or four days.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 25, 2018)

Well if you want good food you can hire us in the PV world. But we don't come cheap. Honestly I wonder if we could make enough money sticking a PV diner on the rear and selling meals at reasonable prices if we would get customers. We would definitely tick off Gardner and Anderson. I'm sure they would then institute some new "safety" rule to prevent it.

At least if you ride the corridor they will improve your menu.


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## PVD (Jun 25, 2018)

you're skipping the yogurt? It wasn't bad when I had it...


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## GBNorman (Jun 25, 2018)

This is a reprint of material I submitted eighteen years ago to a site that long since folded, but might be of nostalgic interest to participants at this topic.

----------------------

I still remember fondly the array of "dinner in the diner" trips that could be taken from Chicago during pre-Amtrak and also early Amtrak "Pioneer Days". Such a trip involved a dinner hour departure, a ride "down" or "out" the line and then a same evening return to Chicago on the last train.

Some of the rides I can recall were to Champaign on the Panama Ltd, return on the City of New Orleans. This of course was first-class parlor (pre 1967 downgrade), but the surcharge for riding such was absurdly low. The Panama's twin unit diner was a sight to behold, and I can still well remember the steak. As for the "City", the song is very descriptive.

Another trip was the MILW (UP) "City" train to Savanna, IL, then return on the BN "Afternoon Zephyr". Although this trip was possible right up to A-day (in fact it was my April,30 A-day eve trip), it was downgraded over the years. The "City of Everywhere" lost the dome diner during 1969- or'70 and the massive size of the train made for a crowded dining scene, but still it was the UP with the color photo menu's printed for each trip, and even their own UP stock red wine. The return on the Zephyr was also downgraded over time; the dome cars were scattered through the system, and food service (not that you needed any after that lovely UP dinner) was pretty spartan.

A popular dinner trip was the GM&O to Bloomington on the "Abe Lincoln" (or Pontiac if you were tense about the return connection). This trip was available into Amtrak and in fact was even an "upgrade" by Amtrak in that ex-CBQ stainless parlor and diner were on the pre-Amfleet/Horizion consist. I always thought the GM&O full service diner was good, but I don't think I would have wanted to look too closely around the kitchen (might be a few multipeeded deadheads aboard!).

And now for the best; "Super Chief" to Joliet, return on Rock Island commuter. That's right!, you could ride the Super Chicago-Joliet (pre-Amtrak), but I think even with first class rail, seat in roomette, and extra fare, it was only about $10 during the 60's. It was best to get seated right away, and let the crew know your intentions. Chgo-Joliet on the ATSF was not exactly a racetrack, and the dinner was not really that rushed.

Northward, there were not too many opportunities. C&NW intercity trains had largely become coach only, and on the MILW, once the "Afternoon" came off, no further ops there.

However, if all you wanted was dinner in the diner (as in "hold the train ride"), the Rock Island could take care of you. At La Salle St Station from shorly before and well into the Amtrak years, they had a stationary dining and lounge car. The operation was called Track One and used railroad-employed chefs, waiters, and stewards (I would rather guess those people were covered by labor protection agreements that were prevalent during the 60's & 70's).Menus were as offered aboard Rock Island diners.

In closing, there was also a "dinner in the diner" opportunity in the Washington area, that was well used by local fans. This was Washington-Alexandria on the Southern Crescent post Amtrak (circa 1976). During that time Southern did not join but agreed to cooperate with Amtrak. Their diner originated in Washington along with sevaral coaches and sleepers. You could board and be seated in the diner as soon as the equipment was spotted in the station. You usually were finished with dinner about the time you were crossing over the Potomac River.

---------------


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 25, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the message from Amtrak Media Relations. "We are evaluating the success of our new food offerings," Marc Magliari Amtrak media relations.
> ...


Me neither! Flying domestic First Class would offer better menu choices than this!


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 25, 2018)

stappend said:


> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> > The Koch Brothers keep cropping up in some of the posts on this thread. Please forgive my ignorance, but why? What's their connection to Amtrak?
> ...


Thank you for posting this link. This also helps to explain what I am seeing taking place at Trump's EPA.


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## bratkinson (Jun 25, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the message from Amtrak Media Relations. "We are evaluating the success of our new food offerings," Marc Magliari Amtrak media relations.
> ...


And don't forget the poor schmuck coming from the east coast having two or three of the same meals as well! Maybe I could make some money offering MREs (military Meal Ready to Eat) selling them door-to-door in the sleepers...


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## gmushial (Jun 25, 2018)

Maybe what I did on the last CZ trip might become a norm, especially in a world of cell phones: but at Grand Junction, the day before, arranged with restaurants for meals (lunches), and a food delivery service... and had Mexican waiting for me on the platform going one way; and Chinese going the other way.... and I suspect such is possible for any station that there is an open platform and a more than 1 minute stop. ... I suspect there is a business model to be had here, a la, Fred Harvey of yesteryear - just instead of feeding a train in 20 mins, to take orders before coming into a station, onloading them at the station and distributing them after underway again... if you've ridden the Indian rails, this is the norm - and works quite well.


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## railiner (Jun 26, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> This is a reprint of material I submitted eighteen years ago to a site that long since folded, but might be of nostalgic interest to participants at this topic.
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> ...


Love that post, thanks for reprinting it. I used to do the same. Mostly on The Broadway Limited. But I vividly remember the Rock's Track One restaurant on...track one. It had a diner and lounge car. You could go in just for drinks, or have drinks until your table was ready. True to railroad operation in every way, including having to write your order on the check...


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 26, 2018)

An interesting thing to see would be a book chronicling railroad diner service over the years. It would be interesting to see how it gradually improved and its eventual decline.


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## railiner (Jun 26, 2018)

You can find some on the subject by 'googling'

I have an autographed copy of "Dining on Rails" by Richard Luckin, in my collection. That book is about the china used, very little to do with the service, other than some ads, etc. I contributed an ad from the PRR...


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## Palmetto (Jun 26, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Well if you want good food you can hire us in the PV world. But we don't come cheap. Honestly I wonder if we could make enough money sticking a PV diner on the rear and selling meals at reasonable prices if we would get customers. We would definitely tick off Gardner and Anderson. I'm sure they would then institute some new "safety" rule to prevent it.
> 
> At least if you ride the corridor they will improve your menu.


Don't think you'll make any money. Dining cars have been a losing proposition always.


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## cirdan (Jun 26, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the message from Amtrak Media Relations. "We are evaluating the success of our new food offerings," Marc Magliari Amtrak media relations.
> ...


You are forgetting that vegan wraps will be sold out by the end of day one and blueberry muffins the next morning.

It'll be candy bars and peanuts from them on.


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## gmushial (Jun 26, 2018)

Something in the business world known as lost leaders, ie, you lose money on item A, but by getting the customer into the store, you do sell them B and C... the repuggie complaint about losing money on the dinning cars is a red herring - just an excuse to eliminate Amtrak and force more people onto planes, noting that the airline companies are significant donors to their pockets: classic selling out the country for personal gain.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jun 26, 2018)

Even this won’t put me off from riding LD trains. I enjoy the experience of being on the rails. Heck, I’ve had some truly bad meals on various trains over the years, but that still hasn’t been a deterrent to me. For others, I’m sure it would.

Do I like the idea of downgraded food service nationwide? No, but I understand why it has to happen. I blame our government for not giving Amtrak the tools it needs to be a truly world class rail carrier. I don’t blame Amtrak mgmt for following the law.

Still - I keep riding. Leaving today on 58 in fact, day trip to Chicago, returning on 59 tomorrow.


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## cpotisch (Jun 26, 2018)

PVD said:


> you're skipping the yogurt? It wasn't bad when I had it...


I really don't like yogurt. I used to love it, but I'm not a fan anymore.


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## cpotisch (Jun 26, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Well if you want good food you can hire us in the PV world. But we don't come cheap. Honestly I wonder if we could make enough money sticking a PV diner on the rear and selling meals at reasonable prices if we would get customers. We would definitely tick off Gardner and Anderson. I'm sure they would then institute some new "safety" rule to prevent it.
> 
> At least if you ride the corridor they will improve your menu.


I was joking with my dad the other day about buying a bunch of Heritage diners and trailing one behind each "Contemporary" train, where I'd serve all passengers hot meals either for free or for a ******* of money. The former would be an effective way to spite Amtrak for this stupid change, and the latter would make me rich!


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 26, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > you're skipping the yogurt? It wasn't bad when I had it...
> ...


That's because we've all been told we can't eat the delicious, sugar-laden, dessert-like yogurt anymore and "should" eat the bitter and unappetizing Greek yogurt (which is, of course, more expensive in the stores



.)


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## cpotisch (Jun 26, 2018)

Dakota 400 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Seaboard92 said:
> ...


Way better! And flying would only last for one or two meals! And at the end of my flight, I would have saved two or three days compared to taking the train, which I could put towards a longer stay at my destination. As someone who is totally fine with flying, and only takes Amtrak because of the comfort and amenities, it will be an easy decision to defect back to the airlines.


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## cpotisch (Jun 26, 2018)

bratkinson said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Seaboard92 said:
> ...


If you're coming east and transferring to the Lake Shore, at least you could split up you're saga of continuous cold meals by getting some deep dish.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 26, 2018)

NativeSon5859 said:


> Even this won’t put me off from riding LD trains.


How about a permanent bus bridge in the middle of your trip like on the newly proposed Southwest Chief? If the current round of cuts wipes out the chef position what if they get rid of the SCA position next? Just curious what it would take for you to reconsider, of if they could can count on your business no matter what they do or how they do it.


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## gaspeamtrak (Jun 26, 2018)

NativeSon5859 said:


> Even this won’t put me off from riding LD trains. I enjoy the experience of being on the rails. Heck, I’ve had some truly bad meals on various trains over the years, but that still hasn’t been a deterrent to me. For others, I’m sure it would.
> 
> Do I like the idea of downgraded food service nationwide? No, but I understand why it has to happen. I blame our government for not giving Amtrak the tools it needs to be a truly world class rail carrier. I don’t blame Amtrak mgmt for following the law.
> 
> Still - I keep riding. Leaving today on 58 in fact, day trip to Chicago, returning on 59 tomorrow.



Count me in too !!! I love riding the rails also...


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 26, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Well if you want good food you can hire us in the PV world. But we don't come cheap. Honestly I wonder if we could make enough money sticking a PV diner on the rear and selling meals at reasonable prices if we would get customers. We would definitely tick off Gardner and Anderson. I'm sure they would then institute some new "safety" rule to prevent it.
> ...


If you did it I'm sure I could get you a deal on some cars. And get some staff members for you.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 26, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Well if you want good food you can hire us in the PV world. But we don't come cheap. Honestly I wonder if we could make enough money sticking a PV diner on the rear and selling meals at reasonable prices if we would get customers. We would definitely tick off Gardner and Anderson. I'm sure they would then institute some new "safety" rule to prevent it.
> ...


If you did it I'm sure I could get you a deal on some cars. And get some staff members for you.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 26, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Seaboard92 said:
> ...


How many staff would it require to operate a full service, full diner?

How do you plan on stocking the train at end points and how much will that cost? Are you planning on establishing a commercial commissary at all end points you serve? Are you planning on hiring a commercial company to deliver to the train yard daily?

Are you going to have table cloths and linen napkins? Who is going to clean them and deliver them to the train at end points and how much will that cost?

Are you planning on also purchasing additional heritage cars for protection at end points? How much will that storage cost? If not, when you have a car break down you plan on just not providing an advertised product on that train?

How much do you need to spend annually to maintain these heritage cars to operate on a daily basis?

Add up all those costs and let me know how much you'll have to charge for a meal to break even. Probably way more than any typical amtrak passenger is gonna spend.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 26, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> NativeSon5859 said:
> 
> 
> > Even this won’t put me off from riding LD trains.
> ...


For me personally...

First it depends on the purpose of my trip. I've chosen the bus bridge option vs. the all day Starlight when traveling from Sacramento to LA. For me.. that was the most convenient way to get where I was going (quicker than the starlight, probably around the same time as air travel when you count in getting to / from airports etc. and obviously cheaper than flying). But that's a 2 hour bus ride I think? And those busses are quite nice I thought.

If I needed to get from Chicago to LA, I don't think I would ever choose the Chief with a bus bridge, and definitely not if the bus bridge was over night (which in this case it would have to be?).

There's also different "breaking points" for different situations. No diner wouldn't stop me from using the Silver Star if it made the most sense schedule wise for me to get somewhere. But no Parlour Car will keep me from going out of my way to ride the Starlight. Would I still ride the starlight? of course. But I used to go out of my way to ride it, including adding travel days so I could connect to the Empire Builder to get to chicago.

In the past I've purchased a Roomette on the Empire Builder from Chicago to Minneapolis. For $120 or so I get the lounge in chicago, a private room, and a $20-$30 dinner in the diner that I would otherwise pay for. If you take the dinner and replace it with a salad meal I can grab at Union Station for $10 now that changes that dynamic a bit... I'm not sure what I would pick but the diner was a factor in my justification for that price.


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## cpotisch (Jun 26, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Seaboard92 said:
> ...


I was totally kidding. Fun to joke about, but not really practical for us.


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 26, 2018)

railiner,

Thanks for re-printing your post of some time ago. "Dinner in the Diner" trips were something that I never heard of. Living where I do, such an opportunity would never have been possible.


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## railiner (Jun 26, 2018)

Dakota 400 said:


> railiner,
> 
> Thanks for re-printing your post of some time ago. "Dinner in the Diner" trips were something that I never heard of. Living where I do, such an opportunity would never have been possible.


Thanks, but that was GBNorman's post that I quoted from....


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## cpotisch (Jun 26, 2018)

railiner said:


> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> > railiner,
> ...


Saw some article (from a mainstream outlet) about riding the Crescent a few weeks ago. It mentioned that they were seated at lunch with a woman who was taking the train a few stops, just to get lunch that day. So I guess people are still doing that kind of thing, even if it might be much less common than it used to be.


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## railiner (Jun 26, 2018)

Used to be popular, not too long ago on lots of trains. I recall riding the Sunset out of New Orleans one day, and a large group of senior ladies boarded and went right to the diner for lunch.

They got off at the first stop, Schriever, and boarded a chartered bus to return on.

At the time, the train left around lunch time...


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## NativeSon5859 (Jun 26, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> NativeSon5859 said:
> 
> 
> > Even this won’t put me off from riding LD trains.
> ...


I don’t know. Good question. I guess if a long bus bridge was implemented, it would make me look at other routings, assuming there was one.

The biggest key for me is a roomette if my journey is two nights. I can still manage coach for one. But if they all of a sudden went coach-only, I’d probably reconsider taking a western LD from end to end, which is what I usually do now.


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## Anderson (Jun 26, 2018)

IANAL TINLA, but I cannot help but suspect that Amtrak may be courting "chargeback hell" at this rate. That being said, considering that he was apparently involved in a previous attempt at hitting the SWC, I'm inclined to point the finger at Steven Gardner (at Amtrak) for a lot of this.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 26, 2018)

Anderson said:


> IANAL TINLA, but I cannot help but suspect that Amtrak may be courting "chargeback hell" at this rate. That being said, considering that he was apparently involved in a previous attempt at hitting the SWC, I'm inclined to point the finger at Steven Gardner (at Amtrak) for a lot of this.


Stephen Gardner is the real mastermind behind all of these changes. The man only cares about one stretch of line and that's his baby the Northeast Corridor. Someone needs to remind him that if he doesn't fund and help the national network the nation will not fund Gateway.

I can tell you this for a fact if Amtrak attempts anything with West Virginia service Senator Manchin will not fund Gateway. And I believe a lot of other states will as well. Kiss Gateway good bye.

It's national or nothing.


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## jis (Jun 26, 2018)

Gateway is not really Amtrak or Gardner’s problem. Amtrak can live fine without Gateway. Gateway is mostly New Jersey and New York’s problem. It will be a long time before Amtrak develops enough traffic of its own to need more tunnels.

That is why Amtrak is not the lead agency for Gateway. It is PANYNJ. Portal Bridge is not an Amtrak project it is an NJT project. I think Gardner knows and understands that. He also knows and understands that his hands are tied to quite an extent as far as NEC goes by the Northeast Corridor Commission, a creation of the same PRIIA that brought us 209. There is no free lunch for anyone here.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 27, 2018)

According to a post on Facebook, now

Anderson's Amway Air Clowns @ Headquarters are considering implementing the Fresh Choice Meal Scheme on the Texas Eagle #21/#22!!

The OP says that they were told by Crew Members that this would begin in September, with a New Menu consisting of Cold Meals just like the Cap and the LSL.

Truth or Rumor, it's a Terrible idea for a Train that spends 2 days and 2 nights Traveling between Chicago and San Antonio!!!


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## MikeM (Jun 27, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> According to a post on Facebook, now
> 
> Anderson's Amway Air Clowns @ Headquarters are considering implementing the Fresh Choice Meal Scheme on the Texas Eagle #21/#22!!
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this... I was seriously thinking about booking a trip on the eagle in a sleeper plus connection on Hiawatha service to a meeting near Milwaukee at the end of September. Not doing that now. Sad, but I'm not paying a travel premium for box lunches.


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## Rheavon (Jun 27, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> According to a post on Facebook, now
> 
> Anderson's Amway Air Clowns @ Headquarters are considering implementing the Fresh Choice Meal Scheme on the Texas Eagle #21/#22!!
> 
> ...


Thank goodness this wouldn't take effect in August, if true. I'm taking both the Cap (WAS-CHI: Sleeper) and the TE (CHI-STL: Coach, STL for the weekend, STL-AUS: Sleeper) as part of my summer trip and if it was boxed meals for dinner & breakfast on the Cap and then dinner, breakfast, lunch, dinner on the TE- I'd be more than bummed. I'd probably be making friends with people (or using a delivery app, if available) in my longer stops to bring me some hot meals.


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## cpotisch (Jun 27, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Truth or Rumor, it's a Terrible idea for a Train that spends 2 days and 2 nights Traveling between Chicago and San Antonio!!!


Isn't it one night?


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## cpotisch (Jun 27, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> According to a post on Facebook, now
> 
> Anderson's Amway Air Clowns @ Headquarters are considering implementing the Fresh Choice Meal Scheme on the Texas Eagle #21/#22!!
> 
> ...


I really, really hope this doesn't happen to the Eagle, since I absolutely loved my trip on it, however I find it surprising that you seem to oppose implementing "Fresh Choices" on it, given you had said on another thread that you supported contemporary dining on the Lake Shore and Capitol...?


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## Railroad Bill (Jun 27, 2018)

The "Cold Meal Deal" may work on overnight trips like CL & LSL but certainly not for a multi day trip where you expect a better choice of meal options than this plan seems to offer.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 27, 2018)

Railroad Bill said:


> The "Cold Meal Deal" may work on overnight trips like CL & LSL but certainly not for a multi day trip where you expect a better choice of meal options than this plan seems to offer.


Passengers on multi-day trips don't seem to be any sort of priority or concern for this particular CEO.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 27, 2018)

Railroad Bill said:


> The "Cold Meal Deal" may work on overnight trips like CL & LSL but certainly not for a multi day trip where you expect a better choice of meal options than this plan seems to offer.


This!


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## Rheavon (Jun 27, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Truth or Rumor, it's a Terrible idea for a Train that spends 2 days and 2 nights Traveling between Chicago and San Antonio!!!
> ...


One night. Now add on the SAS-LAX leg and you've got a little more time than that.


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## cpotisch (Jun 27, 2018)

Rheavon said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Dylan said:
> ...


Yes, the SAS-LAX leg is another two nights, however that's irrelevant right now, since this particular rumor was that the Texas Eagle is losing it's diner. The Sunset Limited is another story.


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## Chey (Jun 27, 2018)

It's one night but it's two dinners if you get on the 21 anywhere from STL or earlier and ride to SAS. If you get on the 22 anywhere before FTW and ride to at least BNL it's two lunches.

Has anyone said yet whether the SL is going to boxed meals?


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 27, 2018)

Chey said:


> Has anyone said yet whether the SL is going to boxed meals?


Pretty sure the plan is to have boxed meals on all trains.


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## zepherdude (Jun 27, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > The "Cold Meal Deal" may work on overnight trips like CL & LSL but certainly not for a multi day trip where you expect a better choice of meal options than this plan seems to offer.
> ...


I think it is multi-day trips that are a low priority for this CEO.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 27, 2018)

zepherdude said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > Railroad Bill said:
> ...


But don't worry we're going to improve meal service for all of the Northeast Corridor trains. It'll be a new era of food on trains. On par with the Fred Harvey Company.

We need to get both Gardner and Anderson out of their offices and force them to eat their own crap box food.


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jun 27, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> We need to get both Gardner and Anderson out of their offices...


How would Gardner be ousted? Although Anderson can be ousted if the board consents to it as he is a CEO (although it is doubtful), Gardner is the board chairman, and trying to oust a chairman is easier said than done. It is surely Amtrak's darkest hour, on par with 1979 and 1997. What about the PRIIA that was signed back in 08?


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## jis (Jun 27, 2018)

Anthony Coscia is the Board Chairman. Gardner works for Anderson. He has nothing to do with the Board. He is an Executive VP and Chief Commercial Officer.


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## Sauve850 (Jun 27, 2018)

Go Greyhound. Not for me. Amtrak is just a cut above Greyhound now and I stay in a bedroom for my long distance trips each year from west coast to Florida. Things aren't looking too good and I do write to my representatives.

I just took Am Airlines first class from Florida to Dallas and Dallas to Jackson Wyoming. Lunchtime food was excellent and service even better. I still fly to a west coast city at the end of my vacation and take Amtrak back across country. I think we are on our last legs for now. Ill keep writing however and be hopeful.


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## Maverickstation (Jun 28, 2018)

What doesn’t make sense here is the trains that would be a logical choice for this new menu would be The Cardinal and the City of New Orleans. In the case of the CONO the new menu would be a step up from what is currently served departing Chicago.


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## benale (Jun 28, 2018)

Agree. The CONO arguably has the worst food in the Amtrak system. I had a horrible dinner two months ago similar to Dinty Moore beef stew. The Cardinal at least had French Toast when I rode in March. Actually,the Cardinal and the CONO would be better trains for the boxed cold food than the CL and the LSL


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## tricia (Jun 28, 2018)

Maverickstation said:


> What doesn’t make sense here is the trains that would be a logical choice for this new menu would be The Cardinal and the City of New Orleans. In the case of the CONO the new menu would be a step up from what is currently served departing Chicago.


Apparently the key reason for choosing the CL and the LSL was that box meals prepared off the train makes it possible to save money by eliminating several on-board staff. (It's pretty likely the workers who prepare those box meals are paid a lot less in wages and benefits.) The CONO is already operating without much diner staffing.


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## cpotisch (Jun 28, 2018)

benale said:


> Agree. The CONO arguably has the worst food in the Amtrak system. I had a horrible dinner two months ago similar to Dinty Moore beef stew. The Cardinal at least had French Toast when I rode in March. Actually,the Cardinal and the CONO would be better trains for the boxed cold food than the CL and the LSL


I definitely agree about the CONO, but not necessarily about the Cardinal. The Cardinal is a 28 hour ride - It's the third longest train ride on the East Coast. Since it's only three days a week, a switch to "Contemporary dining" wouldn't save nearly as much money as it does on the Capitol and LSL, and passengers would have to endure it for that much longer at a time. Also remember that with the Cardinal's current dining setup, they have one person in the diner-lite doing the food prep, and the SCAs bring the food to passengers. Therefore, it seems like a switch to cold meals wouldn't actually reduce the number of onboard staff serving meals.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jun 28, 2018)

This was dinner departing Chicago on 59 last night. A “warm” muffuletta sandwich. It was actually pretty tasty. The other two choices were a chipotle chicken sandwich or a Caesar salad. Breakfast this morning I had the breakfast bowl with a croissant and it was alright.

Word from the crew here is status quo on this train. No word of impending changes.


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## ciship (Jun 28, 2018)

I just looked up the SWC from KC to Fullerton, CA for 2019 and the sleeper fare was $500!!! If I'm just going to be eating cold sandwiches, I expect that price to cut in half!!


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## Ryan (Jun 28, 2018)

Those expectations aren’t based in reality.


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## cpotisch (Jun 28, 2018)

ciship said:


> I just looked up the SWC from KC to Fullerton, CA for 2019 and the sleeper fare was $500!!! If I'm just going to be eating cold sandwiches, I expect that price to cut in half!!


Half sounds a bit extreme...


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 28, 2018)

2 steak dinners and some scrambled eggs are worth $250 to you?

The "fresh" meal options look better than the current amtrak lunch options. Unless you get the steak or salmon (if it's on the menu) I think the fresh meals are about equal to the current dinner options. That leaves breakfast which everyone agrees is lackluster.

The "fresh" idea needs work, but it's really not that drastic of a downgrade. The table service was so wildly inconsistent that it's really hard to say that was a "plus" of the traditional diner on Amtrak.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 28, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > NativeSon5859 said:
> ...


That salad dinner in the station would probably ccost you more than $10. Sure, the salad might be 10, but the dinner box also contains a side dish and a dessert, and beverages are also included. Buy all of that in the station, and I wouldnt be surprised at spending 20 bucks. Or maybe even more. And you would have no way to keep it cold until meal time.


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## cpotisch (Jun 28, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The "fresh" meal options look better than the current amtrak lunch options. Unless you get the steak or salmon (if it's on the menu) I think the fresh meals are about equal to the current dinner options. That


I haven't had the cold Vegan Wrap with a, but I can tell you that that's not going to be as good as a hot black bean and corn veggie burger with a onions, tomato, and a side pickle. Same probably applies when you compare those same two items at dinner.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 28, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> 2 steak dinners and some scrambled eggs are worth $250 to you?
> 
> The "fresh" meal options look better than the current amtrak lunch options. Unless you get the steak or salmon (if it's on the menu) I think the fresh meals are about equal to the current dinner options. That leaves breakfast which everyone agrees is lackluster.
> 
> The "fresh" idea needs work, but it's really not that drastic of a downgrade. The table service was so wildly inconsistent that it's really hard to say that was a "plus" of the traditional diner on Amtrak.


As has been mentioned before. the upcharge also includes lie-flat beds and privacy from the riffraff, including a door lock.

For many people, that's more important than gourmet dining. And I can say that on my recent flight to Beijing, the BC upcharge was a lot more than $250 oer seat, and all you get ia a little cubicle. This is for a 14 hour flight.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 28, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > The "fresh" meal options look better than the current amtrak lunch options. Unless you get the steak or salmon (if it's on the menu) I think the fresh meals are about equal to the current dinner options. That
> ...


I'd have to have both to say for sure, but I don't think I agree with you. I like the veggie burger in the diner just fine, but it's a reheated from frozen vegetable patty served with potato chips. The veggie wrap lists several ingredients that sound like better quality than a frozen veggie Patty to me. You still get a bag of chips. And you get a quinoia salad (all the rage these days  ) and fresh fruit.

Let's try to use some logic here... Do you think a veggie burger at Denny's is more upscale than a chicken salad at Panera? I know which one I eat regularly and which one I never order. But the veggie burger is served warm with a side of pickle spear so in your logic it must be better!

For dinner- Its a downgrade depending on what you order and what is available. The "fresh" boxes look better to me than the veggie pasta dishes, Tilapia Entree, and some versions of chicken entrees I've tried. The steak, salmon, and previous entrees such as lamb shank, Mahi Mahi, crab cakes, etc. Are clearly better than fresh boxes in my opinion.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jun 28, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > The "fresh" meal options look better than the current amtrak lunch options. Unless you get the steak or salmon (if it's on the menu) I think the fresh meals are about equal to the current dinner options. That
> ...


100% fully agree. Rarely, if ever, is a cold meal better than a HOT meal!


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## cpotisch (Jun 28, 2018)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


A cold meal can be better than a hot meal, in general, however it's certainly harder to make a good cold meal than a good hot meal. In this particular case, I can't imagine a cold wrap being better than a hot black bean veggie burger. If it were a different cold option, it could be possible. The way the menu is now, I'm not optimistic.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 28, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > cpotisch said:
> ...


Do you agree that Amtrak Diner food is on par with a Denny's / Ihop in quality? (that's my closest comparison... let me know if you disagree. In the past I've had some amtrak menu items that would exceed that, but not since the "culinary" dishes of like 5-8 years ago).

Do you think the salads and wraps are on par with Panera Bread Salads and cold sandwiches in quality? (I haven't tried them yet so I can't say, only going off of pictures and reviews).

If the answer is yes to both.... My opinion is Panera Bread is a much higher quality product than a Denny's.

Let me continue to state... at a Panera Bread you can choose sides and desserts, you can choose salad dressings, etc. Their are some serious issues with the "fresh" approach that need to be addressed and I am not saying I'm a fan of it's current form.


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## Palmetto (Jun 28, 2018)

MARC Rider said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > 2 steak dinners and some scrambled eggs are worth $250 to you?
> ...


You left out the drinks and the meals, I think.


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## cpotisch (Jun 28, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Do you agree that Amtrak Diner food is on par with a Denny's / Ihop in quality? (that's my closest comparison... let me know if you disagree. In the past I've had some amtrak menu items that would exceed that, but not since the "culinary" dishes of like 5-8 years ago).


Honestly, I would say that it's usually on par with a perfectly decent diner. The food is not amazing, but I've hardly ever felt that a dish was of poor quality. IMO, it does the job well.


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## cpotisch (Jun 28, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Not really. MARC Rider was saying that *in addition to the meals, *you also get a room and beds.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 28, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


What, on Amtrak sleeper or United international business class?

Actually, United international Economy includes meals and drinks - maybe not as good as business class, but edible (except for that godawful "breakfast" prepared by the Beijing commisary),and enough to keep you from getting hangry on a 14 hour flight. And all the beer and wine you want. ok, the wine was plonk, but a couple of glasses was all I needed to help me sleep, and the beer was various craft beers that mt companion said were pretty good. I priced the business class upgrade at about $1500, and I didnt think that was worth it for a slightly better meal and top shelf booze. Maybe the lie flat seats, but it's only 14 hours. Maybe if i got the upgrade for 500 it woild be worth it.

on the other hand a $250 upgrade for two nights of privacy snd lie flat sleeping on the Chief sounds like a much better deal. even if the food isn't so hot.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 28, 2018)

You forget there are some people who don't eat the new options not because they are on strike from it but because it's not what they eat. I can't eat the new meals. Am I going to be calling for delivery again?


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## cocojacoby (Jun 28, 2018)

What's in the Kosher meal?


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 28, 2018)

Seanoard, why can't you eat the new meals?

What were you able to eat from the prior menu?

For me, the only problem is the lack of choosing sides and desserts. I don't typically eat beef (preference), and I can't have gluten right now (necessity). So I would like to order the chicken salad but I can't eat the pasta salad or the cheesecake. But if i could order the chicken salad with the potato salad or 3 bean salad and a gluten free dessert (ice cream please!) I would be pretty content.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jun 29, 2018)

I don't think many here have been to Japan, but there's a technology there in warming up boxed meals. I think it involves some exothermic reaction with Calcium Oxide (I forget exactly). Anyway, you pull a string, the two substances come together in a separate compartment under the food, they react and form heat, and it heats up your food! I heard one of the substances was illegal here, but if that can be changed, that'd be a good option to getting a hot, scrumptious meal in a box; however high quality the cold box meals are, it's just not the same experience as a hot meal.


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## caravanman (Jun 29, 2018)

On the top flight Indian trains, meals have always been included in the fare. There is no dining car, the food is brought to your seat, rather like aircraft catering, but the food is rather more fun on the trains.

On lesser trains, there is often the option to buy food, once again served hot at your seat.

Recently, I have noticed that there is a move to allow the inclusive meals to be rejected, and receive a lower fare charge.

Although the social side of the dining car is a big plus for Amtrak sleeper passengers, maybe reduced fares and just eliminating the diner option for "included" meals would work, PROVIDED they improved the food offerings available to purchase from the cafe car?

Trying to provide a hot, scrumptious meal in a box seems a bit of a stretch, given the lack of hot, scrumptious meals anywhere aboard Amtrak even with the diners!





However, these things are available in the UK: https://www.hotpackmeals.co.uk/hot-pack-self-heating-meal-in-a-box-chicken-dopiaza-qty-1.html

Ed.


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## jis (Jun 29, 2018)

caravanman said:


> On the top flight Indian trains, meals have always been included in the fare. There is no dining car, the food is brought to your seat, rather like aircraft catering, but the food is rather more fun on the trains.


Not always, but progressively so starting with the Howrah Rajdhani in 1969. Even now this is mostly on the Rajdhanis Shatabdis and trains of that ilk, by far a minority of trains.

Before 1969, prestige trains carried Restaurant Cars that were expensive, and mostly only the well to do (Frist Class and ACC crowd) used them. There was not enough capacity for everyone to use them anyway, so the arrangement worked fine. The rest either bought along food from home or brought food at stations. This business of buying food at stations became somewhat infeasible when the Rajdhani was introduced initially with just two stops of 3 mins each on a 16 hour journey. A third service stop at Mughal Sarai for handing the train from/to Northern Railway to//from Eastern Railway was 5 mins, but it was at Oh dark thirty and was not a commercial stop. Anyway, that was the genesis of food included in fare and served to everyone at their seat/room on the train, since not much else was really feasible short of requiring everyone to bring along their own food for the entire journey, which was deemed infeasible.



> On lesser trains, there is often the option to buy food, once again served hot at your seat.


This has always been the standard modus operandi on Indian Mail/Express trains before the advent of Rajdhani/Shatabdi class trains.

Traditionally though Indians tended to bring their own food for journeys that lasted less than a day, which then were a vast majority of journeys, and still is. We always did so in my childhood days on trains like the Bombay mail and Kalka Mail. The AC Express had a AC Restaurant Car which we liked to use. The Kalka Mail did have a Restaurant Car which we never used.

Also the lack of connecting gangways in trains was another deterrent. Typically the Restaurant was adjacent to the upper class segment of the train, even though often not connected by gangways. So you had to wait for a stop to get to it. But then trains stopped quite often back then, so that was not a problem.

The AC Express introduced between new Delhi and Howrah in 1956 was the first train that was fully gangway connected.



> Recently, I have noticed that there is a move to allow the inclusive meals to be rejected, and receive a lower fare charge.


Indians have such varied tastes and cuisines that it is almost impossible to meet the smallest expectations of everyone. This is merely a recognition of that fact. This becomes easier to handle with the introduction of food ordering using Smartphones



> Although the social side of the dining car is a big plus for Amtrak sleeper passengers, maybe reduced fares and just eliminating the diner option for "included" meals would work, PROVIDED they improved the food offerings available to purchase from the cafe car?


I have been on record stating this about twenty years back when the whole including food in the fare was started, and I was roundly hated for stating so back then. I did not like the across the board fare increase for food, half of which was useless for me.

The biggest problem that India faced in trying to serve food through Restaurant Cars is that it is well neigh impossible to serve 1500 people through Restaurant Cars - requires too many non-rev cars in a train whic already could do with more rev space to meet demand. So they chose to just get rid of as a means for serving food in general. Instead they have one prestige train that carries a Restaurant Car (Deccan Queen) more as a social thing than a food thing, and most Rajdhanis have a Cafe Counter in the Pantry Car.

Incidentally, the new express passenger cars are bringing back the concept of a food storage closet with both hot and cold storage facility in each passenger car, where food can be staged for delivery at the seat. This was designed into the original Rajdhani Cars, but somehow got lost on the way, causing some significant hygiene maintenance problems.



> Trying to provide a hot, scrumptious meal in a box seems a bit of a stretch, given the lack of hot, scrumptious meals anywhere aboard Amtrak even with the diners!


Some approximation of a reasonable hot meal in a box may be feasible. In India, because the cuisine involves a lot of fluids (gravy, Daal etc.) they are now tending towards using sealed "Thalis" (like in military canteens) except they are now using recyclable ones made of sugarcane waste and such other otherwise unused fibers. They are apparently liked by the customers too instead of the haphazard collection of plastic and foil wrapped fare with small aluminum cups for fluids etc.



> However, these things are available in the UK: https://www.hotpackmeals.co.uk/hot-pack-self-heating-meal-in-a-box-chicken-dopiaza-qty-1.html
> 
> Ed.


----------



## JoeBas (Jun 29, 2018)

cocojacoby said:


> What's in the Kosher meal?


None of this is Kosher.


----------



## cpotisch (Jun 29, 2018)

JoeBas said:


> cocojacoby said:
> 
> 
> > What's in the Kosher meal?
> ...


Yep, yet another failure with the new system.

This seems to be the response Amtrak has been sending back to people who ask about any special menu under the new system:



> Dear <redacted>,
> 
> Thank you for your comments regarding our Contemporary Dining service on the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited routes. Unfortunately, the new dining service does not have a special menu. Please be assured that customer comments will play an important role in how we offer our service and we will take your valuable feedback into consideration as we make future changes to the dining experience on our trains. Thank you for taking the time to write to us and we hope to see you on board soon.
> 
> ...


----------



## Skyline (Jun 29, 2018)

ParanoidAndroid said:


> I don't think many here have been to Japan, but there's a technology there in warming up boxed meals. I think it involves some exothermic reaction with Calcium Oxide (I forget exactly). Anyway, you pull a string, the two substances come together in a separate compartment under the food, they react and form heat, and it heats up your food! I heard one of the substances was illegal here, but if that can be changed, that'd be a good option to getting a hot, scrumptious meal in a box; however high quality the cold box meals are, it's just not the same experience as a hot meal.



Gotta look into that.

If such meals and heating systems would ever be available to consumers from domestic sources it might allow pax to bring their own heatable food on board too. If not heavy like military MREs, it would even revolutionize backpacking!


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## KmH (Jun 29, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_oxide#Usage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-heating_food_packaging

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flameless_ration_heater


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 29, 2018)

Wouldn't the vegan wrap be a kosher meal?


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## cpotisch (Jun 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Wouldn't the vegan wrap be a kosher meal?


Not if it wasn't certified as such and isn't kept properly separated from other non-Kosher ingredients and meals.


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## caravanman (Jun 29, 2018)

Nice to think of a reusable thali plate on the Indian trains. I was shocked to see the train staff just throwing the bags of used plastic waste out of the doors as the trains sped along!

I had thought that last years trip to India might be my last, but the masala chai is once again sending me it's siren call...






Ed.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 29, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't the vegan wrap be a kosher meal?
> ...


Ah interesting. So none of the former Amtrak meals were kosher either?

Did amtrak used to provide kosher meals on LD trains and now it does not on the CL / LSL?


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## TinCan782 (Jun 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


Yes they did (do), and vegan as well ...

https://www.amtrak.com/onboard/meals-dining/special-menus-special-dietary-requirements.html


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## cpotisch (Jun 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


There were and are certified Kosher options. It probably wouldn't be too hard to have a Kosher certified option on the CL and LSL (even if it's just by properly separating and preparing the Vegan Wrap), but at the moment, anyone who really keeps Kosher will not be able to eat from this menu.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 29, 2018)

Sorry... Im still confused. There were no kosher items on the previous menu. So what's the complaint?

Will Amtrak still provide kosher meals upon request to passengers on the CL / LSL?


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## cpotisch (Jun 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Sorry... Im still confused. There were no kosher items on the previous menu. So what's the complaint?
> 
> Will Amtrak still provide kosher meals upon request to passengers on the CL / LSL?


I'm pretty sure they did offer kosher meals on request before. They are not doing that on the CL and LSL now.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jun 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> For me, the only problem is the lack of choosing sides and desserts. I don't typically eat beef (preference), and I can't have gluten right now (necessity). So I would like to order the chicken salad but I can't eat the pasta salad or the cheesecake. But if i could order the chicken salad with the potato salad or 3 bean salad and a gluten free dessert (ice cream please!) I would be pretty content.


I will be willing to trade my (beef-free, gluten-free) broccoli for your cheesecake.


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## TinCan782 (Jun 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Sorry... Im still confused. There were no kosher items on the previous menu. So what's the complaint?
> 
> Will Amtrak still provide kosher meals upon request to passengers on the CL / LSL?


Yes, they did and in fact, still show that on their website. Does that apply to the CL/SLS, don't know.

_*Kosher Meals*_
_Kosher meals are prepared under rabbinical supervision and sealed until delivered to the passenger. Passover kosher meals will be served in lieu of regular kosher meals throughout the Passover period. Customers must call in advance to reserve._
https://www.amtrak.com/onboard/meals-dining/special-menus-special-dietary-requirements.html


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## cpotisch (Jun 29, 2018)

FrensicPic said:


> Does that apply to the CL/SLS, don't know.


It seems that according to the email response other members have gotten, no.


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## Yumacool (Jul 3, 2018)

I'm sorry, but the cold boxed meals that could be served on future Amtrak western long distance trains would be a disaster, in my opinion. I can't imagine eating poor food like that for several days on end. One of the best experiences in long distance train travel is sitting in the diner and engaging other passengers in conversation. I've met some great people over the years. To take this away would corrupt the very idea of long distance train travel.

Just the other day I met with a couple to discuss taking a future trip on the Coast Starlight. They knew I traveled by train a great deal and wanted to pick my brain. They are enthused about booking a trip on a sleeper, as well as eating in the diner. If I knew they were going to be served pre-packaged meals in boxes, the romance and fun of the trip would definitely be reduced. They probably wouldn't go.

My wife and I almost always travel together in a roomette when taking the train. The dining experience has always been a highlight. I see the box meals as a disaster -- especially breakfast. I have to watch my carbs and my wife has to be gluten free, which means the muffin, banana bread and overly-sweet yogurt would not be eaten. No entrée salad offerings at lunch would be bad for both of us. Lack of seafood at dinner is also a non-starter.

Dining cars never paid for themselves, even in the glory days of passenger trains. They were used as loss leaders to make the travel experience better and to attract riders. Expecting bean counters to think creatively and outside the box is rare indeed.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 3, 2018)

Disaster seems like a strong word.

Nothing is keeping you from meeting fellow passengers in the "sleeper lounge" or the SSL car. If you want to share a meal with them, nothing is stopping you from that either.

I agree the food needs improvements... But I feel there are options for that with the new reduced staff set up. For example - the LSA has pre-made hot food items available. Scrambled eggs, bacon, sausage, breakfast potatoes, etc. Basically a portion controlled Hampton inn breakfast. The breakfast box could remain an option as well. If 1 breakfast attendant can keep up with an entire hampton inn (which holds more people than 2 supeliner sleepers!) surely an LSA can handle a few hot items.


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## ainamkartma (Jul 3, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I agree the food needs improvements... But I feel there are options for that with the new reduced staff set up. For example - the LSA has pre-made hot food items available. Scrambled eggs, bacon, sausage, breakfast potatoes, etc. Basically a portion controlled Hampton inn breakfast. The breakfast box could remain an option as well. If 1 breakfast attendant can keep up with an entire hampton inn (which holds more people than 2 supeliner sleepers!) surely an LSA can handle a few hot items.


At Hampton Inn, there is zero expectation that Food and Beverage operations will turn a direct profit. They are loss leaders to improve the overall hotel stay experience.

Ainamkartma


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 3, 2018)

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make?

If Amtrak wants to Silver Star all the trains (take the diner off completely) they can. It seems that amtrak is trying to provide a decent food product (everyone that has tried the box food says the quality is high), while eliminating the extra dining car employees.

I was throwing out an option of how to provide a better breakfast service, without adding extra employees.


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## cpotisch (Jul 3, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Disaster seems like a strong word.
> 
> Nothing is keeping you from meeting fellow passengers in the "sleeper lounge" or the SSL car. If you want to share a meal with them, nothing is stopping you from that either.


Lake Shore Limited doesn't have an SSL. Now that coach passengers have to eat in the cafe, it will be crammed full of people. Remember, the Lake Shore has five or more coaches in its typical configuration (about 300 seats), and the cafe consists of one half of one AmCan. I imagine that sleeper pax will find it to be virtually impossible to get space in the cafe car, to talk with other passengers. And because the sleeper lounge is not just for dining, passengers will likely be chilling in it throughout the day, which leaves that much less space for people who just want to sit down and have a meal.


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## jis (Jul 3, 2018)

Actually, I have often wondered, how what proportion of Coach passengers actually sit in the cafe while consuming their food. In all my days of traveling by Coach, when I was not rich enough to be able to afford Sleepers in any way, shape or form, as I recall, I seldom sat in the Cafe to eat. Mostly it was at my seat. Now I could be an odd one. But somehow I don't think so. I am yet to see an over crowded lounge even on the Silver Star!

So I am not willing to buy the argument about Lounge crowding by Coach passengers just on its face value. It would be nice to see some real statistics.


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## cpotisch (Jul 3, 2018)

jis said:


> But somehow I don't think so. I am yet to see an over crowded lounge even on the Silver Star!


Interesting, because I see a full lounge almost every time I ride the Meteor. Though the Meteor does run with one or two more coaches than the Star...

I would also note that the LSL has a very high coach passenger diner utilization rate, so with the loss of the diner(-lite), you might have a larger number of coach passengers desiring a sit-down meal in the cafe, than on other routes.


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## pennyk (Jul 3, 2018)

jis said:


> I am yet to see an over crowded lounge even on the Silver Star!


The lounge was crowded on the Silver Star on Friday. The train was full of Boy Scouts traveling from Miami to Raleigh to go to camp for a week. Half of the lounge was full of Boy Scouts and the other half was full of other passengers. I traveled from Miami to Orlando.


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## jis (Jul 3, 2018)

I don't disbelieve any of you. I just wonder if there is any statistics on it. Single observations are anecdotes. However, in the absence of any systematic data collection they have to substitute as proxy.

The other interesting question is, how many use the Lounge to ... well... just lounge around, and how many use it to actually eat. Afterall, since all Coach passengers even on the LSL do not eat in the Diner, those that don't, must eat somewhere. As we all know, some proportion of Sleeper passengers also do not eat in the Diner (or even in the Lounge) since they are known to eat in their rooms. Again, proportions? I have no idea.

Personally, on the Star when traveling in the Sleeper, I always eat in my room, never in the Lounge. There is absolutely nothing appealing in an Amtube Lounge to cause me to move there to eat.


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## Palmland (Jul 3, 2018)

jis said:


> There is absolutely nothing appealing in an Amtube Lounge to cause me to move there to eat.


So true! If there is a silver lining in all this, it’s that sleeper passengers in the east will finally have a decent lounge. The more traditional dimensions of the Viewliners and the double windows almost remind of Seaboard’s Sunroom sleeper lounges. But, I suspect the attendant will not be serving you at your seat in a frosted glass of your favorite beverage. Or as Trains’ former editor, David Morgan, used to call it, ‘ a glass of gin and clickety-clack.’


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## cpotisch (Jul 3, 2018)

jis said:


> There is absolutely nothing appealing in an Amtube Lounge to cause me to move there to eat.


Yeah, the AmCafes are possibly the most dreary and closed in cars Amtrak has ever run. In my opinion, the only possible reason someone would choose to spend time in an AmCan compared to say a roomette would be the large tables and booths, which can be good if you want to play a board game or get some work done. In any other case, I do my best to keep out of those tubes.


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## Tennessee Traveler (Jul 3, 2018)

Amtrak has not removed the dining cars from the Lake Shore Limited or Capitol Limited and those are now reserved exclusively for the sleeping car passengers. When I rode the Capitol Limited, the sleeping car attendant filled out a menu order card and we then took that to the dining car where the dining car attendant filled our orders and we could take them back to our rooms or, as I did, find a table in the dining car to eat. Since there were so many tables available there was not much community seating going on, but all the people eating were conversing with others from other tables. It was a pleasant atmosphere. So the coach passengers are not coming into the sleeping car"dining" lounge.


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## cirdan (Jul 4, 2018)

jis said:


> Actually, I have often wondered, how what proportion of Coach passengers actually sit in the cafe while consuming their food. In all my days of traveling by Coach, when I was not rich enough to be able to afford Sleepers in any way, shape or form, as I recall, I seldom sat in the Cafe to eat. Mostly it was at my seat. Now I could be an odd one. But somehow I don't think so. I am yet to see an over crowded lounge even on the Silver Star!
> 
> So I am not willing to buy the argument about Lounge crowding by Coach passengers just on its face value. It would be nice to see some real statistics.


Maybe it's not about being in coach vs sleeper but about whether you are travelling alone versus in a group.

It's a bit like checking into a hotel on business versus doing so with family or friends.

In the former case I might ask room service to bring me something to eat, or just buy some sandwiches in a shop and eat them by mself in my room. If I'm with people I will go to a sit down restaurant and probably spend all evening there, ordering extras just so we can keep on talking.


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## cirdan (Jul 4, 2018)

jis said:


> Actually, I have often wondered, how what proportion of Coach passengers actually sit in the cafe while consuming their food. In all my days of traveling by Coach, when I was not rich enough to be able to afford Sleepers in any way, shape or form, as I recall, I seldom sat in the Cafe to eat. Mostly it was at my seat. Now I could be an odd one. But somehow I don't think so. I am yet to see an over crowded lounge even on the Silver Star!
> 
> So I am not willing to buy the argument about Lounge crowding by Coach passengers just on its face value. It would be nice to see some real statistics.


Maybe it's not about being in coach vs sleeper but about whether you are travelling alone versus in a group.

It's a bit like checking into a hotel on business versus doing so with family or friends.

In the former case I might ask room service to bring me something to eat, or just buy some sandwiches in a shop and eat them by mself in my room. If I'm with people I will go to a sit down restaurant and probably spend all evening there, ordering extras just so we can keep on talking.


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## Palmetto (Jul 4, 2018)

How would the ambience in V-II diner be better than that of an Amfleet Lounge? Personally, I don't see any difference at all.


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## jis (Jul 4, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> How would the ambience in V-II diner be better than that of an Amfleet Lounge? Personally, I don't see any difference at all.


It is just a matter of ones taste. Each to his or her own [emoji57]


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## cpotisch (Jul 4, 2018)

Tennessee Traveler said:


> So the coach passengers are not coming into the sleeping car"dining" lounge.


Because they're not allowed to...


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## cpotisch (Jul 4, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> How would the ambience in V-II diner be better than that of an Amfleet Lounge? Personally, I don't see any difference at all.


More space, double row of windows so more light, nice frosted glass, stainless steel trim, LED lighting on the walls and ceiling. It's just a nice place to be.

Amfleet II Lounge:







Viewliner II diner:


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## CAMISSY55 (Jul 4, 2018)

Wow! What a difference! All of my sleeping car LD train travel has been on western routes, so I've never seen a Viewliner dining car. Is this the kind of DC on the Crescent?

Also, speaking of differences and features of dining cars: I find the booths in the dining car section of the Cross Country diners on the CONO very awkward. The booth's seats are so far away from the table that I have to sit on the edge of the seat to eat. And I am not a skinny Minnie! I could literally wear my backpack and fit just right. Very uncomfortable.


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## jis (Jul 4, 2018)

CAMISSY55 said:


> Wow! What a difference! All of my sleeping car LD train travel has been on western routes, so I've never seen a Viewliner dining car. Is this the kind of DC on the Crescent?


Yes. These cars are now on the Meteor, the Crescent and the Lake Shore. On the Lake Shore only Sleeper passengers have access to this car as it is used as the Sleeper lounge.


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## CAMISSY55 (Jul 4, 2018)

jis said:


> CAMISSY55 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow! What a difference! All of my sleeping car LD train travel has been on western routes, so I've never seen a Viewliner dining car. Is this the kind of DC on the Crescent?
> ...


Thanks. I may just have to arrange an overnight turnaround trip to experience something different, while still possible.


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## me_little_me (Jul 4, 2018)

> I just took Am Airlines first class from Florida to Dallas and Dallas to Jackson Wyoming. Lunchtime food was excellent and service even better. I still fly to a west coast city at the end of my vacation and take Amtrak back across country. I think we are on our last legs for now. Ill keep writing however and be hopeful.


I just took UA First Class from Atlanta to Denver and had less leg room than when I used to fly coach (Last 1st class was 3 years ago. Last coach was 6).



cpotisch said:


> ciship said:
> 
> 
> > I just looked up the SWC from KC to Fullerton, CA for 2019 and the sleeper fare was $500!!! If I'm just going to be eating cold sandwiches, I expect that price to cut in half!!
> ...


Yeah, I agre. No more than 40%.







ParanoidAndroid said:


> I don't think many here have been to Japan, but there's a technology there in warming up boxed meals. I think it involves some exothermic reaction with Calcium Oxide (I forget exactly). Anyway, you pull a string, the two substances come together in a separate compartment under the food, they react and form heat, and it heats up your food! I heard one of the substances was illegal here, but if that can be changed, that'd be a good option to getting a hot, scrumptious meal in a box; however high quality the cold box meals are, it's just not the same experience as a hot meal.


MREs 2.0?


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## cpotisch (Jul 4, 2018)

CAMISSY55 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > CAMISSY55 said:
> ...


While they are indeed very nice, and I understand why you want to experience one, I would not that the V-II diners themselves aren't going to leave service anytime soon. Whether or not any of them are still offering proper dining service is another story...


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## dogbert617 (Aug 7, 2018)

gmushial said:


> Maybe what I did on the last CZ trip might become a norm, especially in a world of cell phones: but at Grand Junction, the day before, arranged with restaurants for meals (lunches), and a food delivery service... and had Mexican waiting for me on the platform going one way; and Chinese going the other way.... and I suspect such is possible for any station that there is an open platform and a more than 1 minute stop. ... I suspect there is a business model to be had here, a la, Fred Harvey of yesteryear - just instead of feeding a train in 20 mins, to take orders before coming into a station, onloading them at the station and distributing them after underway again... if you've ridden the Indian rails, this is the norm - and works quite well.


Interesting. I also recall someone I knew once did(per a suggestion by an Amtrak employee) order food from Matey's bar in Michigan City, IN(as it's across the street from the Amtrak station), and had that food ready for pick up when the train arrived into the Mich City station. With all the(I fear) downgrades Amtrak is doing to dining cars, I'm starting to wonder if this strategy might be the best way to counter the lack of not so good food on certain routes?

I do recall reading Grand Junction had some sort of convenience store that was attached to its Amtrak station, that riders on the CA Zephyr often note in their trip reports. And that allegedly, El Paso and Albuquerque sometimes have food vendors that sell food right on the Amtrak platform, and would theoretically work well for those extended stops.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Sorry... Im still confused. There were no kosher items on the previous menu. So what's the complaint?
> 
> Will Amtrak still provide kosher meals upon request to passengers on the CL / LSL?


Supposedly, yes I read somewhere around the time of the June 1st dining car downgrades that kosher meals would still be available upon an ADVANCE request to Amtrak before you rode your train. Not sure how you'd make that request in advance, maybe via emailing Amtrak or calling 1-800-USA-Rail? I'm not sure....


crescent-zephyr said:


> Sorry... Im still confused. There were no kosher items on the previous menu. So what's the complaint?
> 
> Will Amtrak still provide kosher meals upon request to passengers on the CL / LSL?


 Sorry... Im still confused. There were no kosher items on the previous menu. So what's the complaint?

Will Amtrak still provide kosher meals upon request to passengers on the CL / LSL?


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## PVD (Aug 7, 2018)

From Amtrak's website:

Special menu selections, such as kosher meals are available on most overnight trains with 72-hour advanced notice. Vegan meals are available on the regular menu for Long Distance trains and do not require advance notice. Both vegan and kosher meals are available with 24-hour advanced notice for Acela Express First Class service. Vegetarian meals do not require advance notice.
To reserve your meal, call 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245). TTY service is available at 1-800-523-6590.

During Passover, thy use Kosher for Passover meals...


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## tonys96 (Aug 7, 2018)

I cannot, and will not eat pre packaged food that has zero input from me on what it contained. I am allergic to ingredients in mayo and miracle whip, and it's generics, do not like the taste of mustard, and do not like many of the things put on generic sandwiches. Like tomato, onions, etc. Onions give me indigestion. That is why I like Subway. I get what I want. I order burgers dry, with only lettuce added at Burger joints.

Having what someone else has decided that I want as my sole choice for food for over 24 hours on a train would be unacceptable. Especially if I am paying for it as part of my sleeper cost.


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## cpotisch (Aug 7, 2018)

PVD said:


> From Amtrak's website:
> 
> Special menu selections, such as kosher meals are available on most overnight trains with 72-hour advanced notice. Vegan meals are available on the regular menu for Long Distance trains and do not require advance notice. Both vegan and kosher meals are available with 24-hour advanced notice for Acela Express First Class service. Vegetarian meals do not require advance notice.
> 
> ...


They said "most overnight trains", which doesn't guarantee that they do so on the CL and LSL. I'm also pretty sure a few members had called to ask about that and were told that they don't have any special options at this time. Could just be misremembering, but I would swear that's the consensus given out by USA-RAIL CSRs.


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## Anderson (Aug 9, 2018)

Obviously they need to give themselves wiggle room in re 66/67...but if they can't put together a kosher meal basket? That's just stupid. For frak's sake, at least for _that_ just grab one from the Acela food pool and call it a day.


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## chakk (Aug 15, 2018)

The posts in this thread about the stationary Rock Island lounge and diner in Chicago reminded me of a stationary Milwaukee Road lounge car I visited in Milwaukee about 20 years ago that served drinks and snacks.

Anybody lnow if they are still in business?


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## railiner (Aug 16, 2018)

Can't answer that, sorry. There are many former railroad cars being used around the country as bars, restaurants, or hotel rooms.

What made the Rock Island operation completely unique, was that they were actually being operated by the railroad, in an active station, using real railroad employees, and menu's. The cars could also be used on trains, if needed.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 16, 2018)

The Rock Island diner and lounge at LaSalle Street station were manned by actual Rock Island employees, long time veterans.


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## railiner (Aug 16, 2018)

IIRC, by the time of that operation in the '70's, The Rock did not have any diner's left in service, on its two remaining intercity trains, The Quad City Rocket, and The Peoria Rocket.

Those trains did contain a parlor, sometimes dome, lounge car, but IIRC, it was operated by a private company...DePorter-Butterworth Tours...


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## Paul CHI (Aug 16, 2018)

If they eliminate the diners, Amtrak should return to the Fred Harvey wayhouses. We visited one In Belen, NM a while back, and were met by a nice lady who used to be house mother for the Fred Harvey Girls.

Tables were set and ready for arrival, train stops, everybody off, 45 minutes to eat, off we go. Of course, at that time the trains arrived on time...

There's a Bed & Breakfast Inn in the Amana Colonies in Iowa where the train would stop overnight for the travellers to bunk, men in one room, women in another. Maybe Anderson should eliminate the sleepers, too.


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## jis (Aug 16, 2018)

I don't think there has been any proposal to eliminate Diners. What has been flying around is proposals to radically modify how food is served, and to whom, in the Dining Cars, not elimination of all food service altogether. At least not yet.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 16, 2018)

Paul CHI said:


> Tables were set and ready for arrival, train stops, everybody off, 45 minutes to eat, off we go. Of course, at that time the trains arrived on time...


I think that should be the law. A long distance train without an on-board diner, would be required to stop once every 4 hours, for 45 to 60 minutes, at a food station (ie restaurant) so that passengers can enjoy a meal.


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## cpotisch (Aug 16, 2018)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Paul CHI said:
> 
> 
> > Tables were set and ready for arrival, train stops, everybody off, 45 minutes to eat, off we go. Of course, at that time the trains arrived on time...
> ...


Well that's going to take a while.


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## CCC1007 (Aug 16, 2018)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Paul CHI said:
> 
> 
> > Tables were set and ready for arrival, train stops, everybody off, 45 minutes to eat, off we go. Of course, at that time the trains arrived on time...
> ...


Welcome back to 1870!


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## jis (Aug 16, 2018)

They should just have two sets of train service. One that caters to the needs of those that must have a Restaurant setting for their meals. These cross country trains would take seven days to cross the country following what Cho Choo suggest. The other set would be for those who can survive on Cafe and boxed meals and actually take less than 3 days to cross the country. Then everyone can take their pick






I really need an emoji for "tounge in the cheek"


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 16, 2018)

How about a compromise? A fresh and contemporary experience--plastic-wrapped junk food in a grade school cafeteria-like setting (long lines, no tablecloths, and throw away your own trash (or "plate waste" as some school nutrition reports vividly call it



) on routes/stretches where there are no long stops. But a Fred Harvey-type sit-down meal (perhaps at an extra cost, even for sleeping car passengers) in places where the train is going to be stuck there forever anyway. For example, you could perhaps get such a meal in during the engine swap in WAS, which takes a long time, and always longer than they say it will. Or that place on the Empire Builder out there in the middle of nowhere where we stopped forever, where the coffee and hot chocolate truck lady was doing a brisk business.

Or in Tampa--doesn't the Star sit there for a while between going in and backing back out?

I really am serious--it wouldn't work everywhere, but there are a few places where it could.


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## tricia (Aug 16, 2018)

jis said:


> They should just have two sets of train service. One that caters to the needs of those that must have a Restaurant setting for their meals. These cross country trains would take seven days to cross the country following what Cho Choo suggest. The other set would be for those who can survive on Cafe and boxed meals and actually take less than 3 days to cross the country. Then everyone can take their pick


Perhaps add a third type of train to the mix: one that doesn't stop for meals, but DOES provide a good selection of reasonably fresh and varied foods, with options suitable for most dietary restrictions and preferences. There's quite a gap between this fairly modest proposal and the current cafe and boxed meal offerings.

I LOVE long-distance train travel, but several days of nothing but the highly processed cafe and boxed options currently on offer would be punishing for me. Especially if I'm starting far from home, limiting my options for bringing food on board with me.

And the massively wasteful packaging marketed as "sustainable" adds insult to injury. Altogether a hard sell for me--and I'm a long-time Amtrak devotee.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 16, 2018)

tricia--

Your suggestion is sensible, as I find all your posts to be.

I think the Downeaster (and perhaps some other state-supported trains?) have tried to improve the quality of their café food, and I think you are right that it could be done on the long-distance trains.

My biggest disappointment is the socializing going away. (I am not a social butterfly in my normal life, but I like meeting the variety of people in the dining car.) It is possible to get into conversations in the SSL on the Superliners, but the Viewliners don't have anywhere else but the dining car to meet others and have interesting conversations.

On the other hand, the last few times I have been in a dining car, people have pulled out their phones and just stared at them like they do everywhere else, so maybe the old-fashioned idea of a conversation with a real person is doomed everywhere anyway.


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## tricia (Aug 16, 2018)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> My biggest disappointment is the socializing going away. (I am not a social butterfly in my normal life, but I like meeting the variety of people in the dining car.) It is possible to get into conversations in the SSL on the Superliners, but the Viewliners don't have anywhere else but the dining car to meet others and have interesting conversations.
> 
> On the other hand, the last few times I have been in a dining car, people have pulled out their phones and just stared at them like they do everywhere else, so maybe the old-fashioned idea of a conversation with a real person is doomed everywhere anyway.


You could try traveling out west and timing your dining car meals for places where there's likely no cell signal.


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## jis (Aug 16, 2018)

You don't really need cell signal to watch movies that you have brought along downloaded on your pad.

But then a again, a silent person is probably better than the infernal gasbag that we had as our Breakfast table mate on the Meteor the other day.


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## pennyk (Aug 16, 2018)

jis said:


> But then a again, a silent person is probably better than the infernal gasbag that we had as our Breakfast table mate on the Meteor the other day.


You are kind referring to the tablemate as an infernal gasbag. I am trying to out of my way to be kind, so I will not say what I thought about that truly awful woman.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 16, 2018)

CCC1007 said:


> Welcome back to 1870!


Oh, now you are going to make drool. Old time Pullman Porter cars... parlor cars... bring back the golden days of rail travel.


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## dogbert617 (Aug 16, 2018)

jis said:


> You don't really need cell signal to watch movies that you have brought along downloaded on your pad.
> 
> But then a again, a silent person is probably better than the infernal gasbag that we had as our Breakfast table mate on the Meteor the other day.


That sucks you ran into someone like that. I'd sure like to think that the art of being able to have good conversations with others hasn't totally gone away, but who knows. And of course, that others are respectful and not totally rude to others. I do wonder, what ways was that 'infernal gasbug' of a person being rude like?


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## jebr (Aug 16, 2018)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Paul CHI said:
> 
> 
> > Tables were set and ready for arrival, train stops, everybody off, 45 minutes to eat, off we go. Of course, at that time the trains arrived on time...
> ...


This type of micro-managing would be worse than Mica's micromanaging. If trains have to stop every 4 hours just so people can go eat at a diner for an hour, Amtrak would be significantly less time-competitive than they are now! Imagine if you're taking a trip that today is two hours, but now suddenly is three hours because the stop along the way is the food break? It seems like a recipe for losing ridership and making Amtrak less relevant for transportation needs.


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## jebr (Aug 16, 2018)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> How about a compromise? A fresh and contemporary experience--plastic-wrapped junk food in a grade school cafeteria-like setting (long lines, no tablecloths, and throw away your own trash (or "plate waste" as some school nutrition reports vividly call it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There might be a couple places, but timing it, overhead (especially if the diner has to be sit-down and near the train, and able to feed a large portion of the train quickly) and having enough time without delaying the train would be pretty rare instances. Even a 30-45 minute timeframe would be quite rushed to order, cook food, eat it, and settle bills.

What could work is having specific vendors able to sell (or have delivered on-board) local food from their menu. Basically a GrubHub, Uber Eats, or similar delivery service, just set to deliver to the train instead of your home. Have people order ahead and have the food waiting trackside for people to pick up. It would still have the same social element changes that the contemporary meals have, but it would allow for more variety and likely fresher options. Plus, it'd be an easy way to have people sample the cuisine of the areas they're traveling through!


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## ParanoidAndroid (Aug 16, 2018)

Except if the train is delayed, you'll have to pick another store or have dinner at 2am.


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## cpotisch (Aug 16, 2018)

There is the "Lakeland hack" on the Starvation. Get off the train when the Star first stops at Lakeland, get food, and re-board when the train comes back around 1h 40m later.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 16, 2018)

jebr said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > Paul CHI said:
> ...


Ah, you got the point. There is indeed a "cost" to eliminating on-board dining.

Remember, this is the way long distance rail travel worked years back. There was even a network of restaurants which emerged to service the passengers at these food stops.

Having an on-board dining car, added an overall efficiency to long distance rail travel.


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## Grandpa D (Aug 16, 2018)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Remember, this is the way long distance rail travel worked years back. There was even a network of restaurants which emerged to service the passengers at these food stops.


Ah yes. The Fred Harvey chain. The good old days.


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## ehbowen (Aug 16, 2018)

You have to also keep in mind that back in the 19th and early 20th centuries the railroad was basically the only way for the rich, influential, famous and powerful to travel long distances...and these travelers wouldn't put up with bad food or poor service, not for very long at any rate. I've seen a story that Fred Harvey was given the go-ahead by the AT&SF (he had been turned down by the Burlington, which he had been an agent for) expressly because they had just been royally embarrassed by the performance of a special train they had run for Kansas legislators. But once Harvey had established a foothold...and had been invited to extend his presence down the line...and other railroads were forced to compete...then, well, the rest is history.

When dining cars came along they had to be as good or better than the station restaurants. *Had* to be. Then, during the years ticket prices were so closely regulated by the ICC, the quality of food service was one of the primary ways that railroads competed for market share. They were willing to bear losses in their passenger operations in order to influence the managements of their various freight shippers. But, when the managers of the shippers eventually took to the highways and the airlines, the race to the bottom started (for many).

When I took my first Amtrak trip in 1979 as a 16 year old my 20 year old traveling companion was amazed to find that they actually served fresh food on board (I had some idea as to what to expect; I had taken the _Texas Eagle_ 12 years previously and had spent time in the library researching my trip). When I took a friend aboard at the last minute last year for a trip to St. Louis it was his first time in a sleeper and a real dining car (well, "Cross-Country Cafe!") and he commented that the airlines certainly didn't feed their passengers that well! So good food, properly prepared, can be a real selling point...if it's properly marketed so that the public is aware of it and if the quality of the product lives up to its marketing.

The bottom-of-the-barrel thought exercise we're indulging in now is grievous. If we were to go back to making train stops for meals (as my friend in 1979 seemed to expect), I can guarantee you that it wouldn't be at a worthy successor to a Harvey House...or even a Greyhound Post House. No, if we got a Burger King or a Subway we could consider ourselves lucky. I won't say exactly what my preferred way out of this dilemma is...but I will say that it requires Divine Intervention.


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## tommylicious (Aug 17, 2018)

I think it's the better bet that dining car service will be eliminated systemwide. Such a shame. Just booked a trip on VIA.


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## railiner (Aug 17, 2018)

While I doubt that the practice of meal stops for trains would ever return, I would make a small analogy with airline's in a way...

When they eliminated serving food on board to all but first class passenger's, the result was a large improvement in what was available in the secured side of airport terminal's, so that people could get decent food between flights, or to bring on board with them..

If the on board food service on Amtrak is cut way down, you might see similar happening in railway station's....better food, and better 'to-go' choices than are currently available.

Every 'vacuum' seems to get 'filled' one way, or another....


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 17, 2018)

In airports however it makes a lot of sense to have a bunch of food options because places like Atlanta service thousands of flights per day. While a place like Bryan Ohio services one train pair a day. There isn't a business model in which that works.

The way to save dining cars involves firing two people (yes I'm a broken record). Get rid of Anderson and Gardner to eliminate the larger threat. Afterwards we need to deal with congress who doesn't understand the railroad. But is far less able to hurt ridership than the two knuckleheads at Amtrak now.

The way Anderson and Gardner cut items on trains I'm rather surprised Anderson's railroad connection worked for the Santa Fe and not the Southern Pacific.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2018)

But let us also remember that Dining Car elimination started with Boardman and it involved physically removing the car from the train apparently never to be restored.


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## bpb1970 (Aug 17, 2018)

We took the SWC a couple of weeks ago from Chicago to LA. They offered hot prepared meals for both lunch and dinner on the second day to all non-sleeping car passengers. I think the price was $12 for lunch and $14 for dinner. I forget what lunch was but the dinner was Salisbury steak that looked like bad cafeteria food.


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## cpotisch (Aug 17, 2018)

bpb1970 said:


> We took the SWC a couple of weeks ago from Chicago to LA. They offered hot prepared meals for both lunch and dinner on the second day to all non-sleeping car passengers. I think the price was $12 for lunch and $14 for dinner. I forget what lunch was but the dinner was Salisbury steak that looked like bad cafeteria food.


From what I've heard, the just-for-you Salisbury steak is actually pretty good. Just saying.


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## jrud (Aug 24, 2018)

tommylicious said:


> I think it's the better bet that dining car service will be eliminated systemwide. Such a shame. Just booked a trip on VIA.


Can we learn from other countries how to make dining cars an advantage for travelers choosing rail? https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/fv-dosto-dining-car-unveiled.html


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## Paul CHI (Aug 24, 2018)

Another thing that seems to have changed is passenger mobility, judging by the folks I see waiting for trains at CUS. A 45 minute meal stop would never work for many of them.

I've ridden EB, SWC, and CZ numerous times but will never again take a LD ride if the diner is eliminated. I've always considered the diner part of the travel package even if I had to pay for the meal.


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## cpotisch (Aug 24, 2018)

jrud said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's the better bet that dining car service will be eliminated systemwide. Such a shame. Just booked a trip on VIA.
> ...


I get that the food and service on Swiss Federal probably blows Amtrak out of the park, but I'm not a fan of the design of those new diners. It's just too cramped looking and airplane-esque, IMO.


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## bretton88 (Aug 24, 2018)

jrud said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's the better bet that dining car service will be eliminated systemwide. Such a shame. Just booked a trip on VIA.
> ...


On the flip side, Czech Railways, who supposedly has the best dining cars in Europe, is converting their restaurant cars to "bistro cars." This is widely seen as a massive downgrading of the service.


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## jis (Aug 24, 2018)

Using Swiss Railways as an example for doing anything would seem to be more applicable to Regional Rail Service like NEC or California in this country. It is not really that big a country with that long an individual train ride involved in most cases. Most of it is very spectacular though, but enjoyed much better from open cars of local trains than hermetically sealed A/C Restaurant Cars on prestige trains. Just my personal taste mind you.


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## jrud (Aug 25, 2018)

Paul CHI said:


> Another thing that seems to have changed is passenger mobility, judging by the folks I see waiting for trains at CUS. A 45 minute meal stop would never work for many of them.
> 
> I've ridden EB, SWC, and CZ numerous times but will never again take a LD ride if the diner is eliminated. I've always considered the diner part of the travel package even if I had to pay for the meal.


The Swiss SBB article talks about using the train’s differences from other transport methods as selling points rather than eliminating them in the name of economy. In many cases the door to door time is going to be longer on a train. So what can be used to differentiate the train to someone who is not a rail fan? Food? Scenery? Comfort? ??


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