# Fatal train crash in France



## jis (Jul 12, 2013)

Happened just south of Paris a few hours back.... and no, not a TGV...

At least 6 fatalities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23295812


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## SarahZ (Jul 12, 2013)




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## DET63 (Jul 12, 2013)

Six killed as commuter train derails in Paris suburb



> At least six people died and dozens others were injured when a packed commuter train derailed at a station in the Paris suburb of Brétigny-sur-Orge on Friday evening, in what is France’s deadliest train crash in 25 years.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 12, 2013)

That's not so much of a commuter train if it goes 250 miles and runs for three hours. Limoges is about halfway between Paris and Toulouse. There's ex-Teoz railcars in the train, which are long-distance, not commuter equipment.


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## the_traveler (Jul 13, 2013)

But a run on a regional from BOS to WAS is not classified as a LD train, but more of a commuter run - and it's route is longer!


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## leemell (Jul 13, 2013)

This article in the BBC News said "SNCF said a metal bar connecting two rails had become detached close to Bretigny-sur-Orge station."


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 13, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> But a run on a regional from BOS to WAS is not classified as a LD train, but more of a commuter run - and it's route is longer!


Then again, France is much smaller than the US and a Teoz train would be considered short-distance intericty by their standards.


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## jamesontheroad (Jul 14, 2013)

SNCF recently rebranded their non-TGV intercity services, so this was marketed as an "Intercités" service (the Téoz and Lunéa sub-brands are gone). Regardless, this was a seven carriage train hauled by an electric locomotive, and was doing close to the approved line speed of 90mph through the station. There was confusion to begin with about it being an RER suburban train, because line C runs parallel and calls at Brétingy.

Most importantly, it's Bastille Day today (Sunday) so this was probably an unusually busy train leaving Paris for Limoges at the start of the long holiday weekend.

The nature and outcome of the accident is painfully reminiscent of the 2002 Potter's Bar train crash when a London - Cambridge express EMU was derailed at speed by faulty points, leaving one carriage wedged across the platforms.


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## jis (Jul 14, 2013)

The cars are all (what was known as) Corail cars, which indicates that it is French intercity service. RERs would have completely different type of rolling stock. I have been by that station on RER-C


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 14, 2013)

Now it seems faulty switches caused the accident: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324348504578605862948891742.html.


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## jis (Jul 15, 2013)

That is what they had said very early on. This is just filling in details.

In simple language it still sounds like it picked a switch halfway down the train. That suggests that the component that failed was probably some lock bar or such. Although the mention of "four bolts" could also suggest a fish plate as the Brits would call it. But then 22lb sounds like a pretty hefty one of those. How much do typical rail joint bars weigh anyway? I have no idea.

Coming to think of it here is a photo of the thing that broke:

http://www.lokreport.de/


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## George Harris (Jul 15, 2013)

jis said:


> Although the mention of "four bolts" could also suggest a fish plate as the Brits would call it. But then 22lb sounds like a pretty hefty one of those. How much do typical rail joint bars weigh anyway? I have no idea.


22 lbs for a single bar is on the light side.

A pair of 24 inch joint bars for 115 lb/yd rail weigh 70.56 pounds. A single bar, that is one side of the joint, weighs 35.28 pounds. I think the norm in Europe is the four hole bar, which is what a 24 inch bar is. I picked 115 lb rail because that would be about the same in web as the UIC 60 that is 60 kg/m = real close to 120 lb/yd rail that is the French standard main line rail section. I understand that they do still have quite a lot of 50kg/m rail in track. A bar for that section may be close to 22 lb. Since the 100 RE rail is no longer in the AREMA standards, I can't look that one up sitting here, as I only have the current info at hand.


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## cirdan (Jul 16, 2013)

George Harris said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Although the mention of "four bolts" could also suggest a fish plate as the Brits would call it. But then 22lb sounds like a pretty hefty one of those. How much do typical rail joint bars weigh anyway? I have no idea.
> ...


But the fishplate is disappearing species with the spread of welded rail. How probably is it that a main line passed for 90mph would still use fishplates?


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## George Harris (Jul 16, 2013)

cirdan said:


> George Harris said:
> 
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> > jis said:
> ...


I am well aware of that. However, they remain for insulated joints, although usually bonded (epoxy glued) with the primary purpose of the bolts being to hold the bars tight while the glue sets, and to be the safety if the bond breaks. These can be found in any track where an insulated joint is needed for signal purposes. Also,they are used to hold the rails in line temporarily until a field weld can be done.

The French standard bonded insulated joint is somewhere around 900 mm to 980 mm long and has six bolts.

I can think of other possibilities, but I will not speculate.


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## jis (Jul 16, 2013)

The Santa Fe mainline through Kansas and Colorado which until very recently still had some 90mph segments was jointed rail. So such is not unheard of.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 16, 2013)

George Harris said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Although the mention of "four bolts" could also suggest a fish plate as the Brits would call it. But then 22lb sounds like a pretty hefty one of those. How much do typical rail joint bars weigh anyway? I have no idea.
> ...


How often does a 22-pound joint bar break?


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## jis (Jul 16, 2013)

A heftier one broke on MNRR causing the crash a few weeks back.


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## jamesontheroad (Jul 17, 2013)

jis said:


> The cars are all (what was known as) Corail cars, which indicates that it is French intercity service.


Just a pedantic note on the above. Although correct in this instance, as the lignes a grande vitesses (LGV) have opened, TGV services have in most cases replaced older "slow" (200km/h) Corail services. That means you are now finding Corail cars being used on commuter services throughout France, under the TER branding. Between Strasbough and Colmar, for instance, there is regular 200km/h commuter service branded as TER 200.


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## cirdan (Jul 17, 2013)

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The cars are all (what was known as) Corail cars, which indicates that it is French intercity service.
> ...


In fact as far as I am aware, all previous generations of hauled coaching stock have been phased out, and no newer cars were acquired since Corail production ceased, so Corail remains the only type of coach for loco-hauled operation.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 18, 2013)

jis said:


> A heftier one broke on MNRR causing the crash a few weeks back.


Then I guess joint bars aren't very strong.



cirdan said:


> jamesbrownontheroad said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


So SNCF is doing the same thing the did in the UK, phasing out locomitves in favour of multiple units. Then they neglect the maintainence for trains no longer in production, and more accidents happen.


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## RRUserious (Jul 30, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now it seems faulty switches caused the accident: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324348504578605862948891742.html.





> French officials said over the weekend that they believed the accident was caused by the faulty metal plate, although they couldn't absolutely rule out the hypothesis of a malevolent act.


Hmmm. Trains can be derailed just by tinkering with a metal plate? Sounds way too easy.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 4, 2013)

RRUserious said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Now it seems faulty switches caused the accident: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324348504578605862948891742.html.
> ...


AFAIK, train wheels only touch the very little flanged bit with the tracks so a tiny deviation could cause a huge accident, especially at high speeds.


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## RRUserious (Aug 4, 2013)

It could happen. It did happen in Russia (or was it Belarus?) in a way that they suspected the Chechens of sabotage. But how about that huge area of the world where all the rest of the jihadists are operating? I bet they talk about it and some critic says "but all those *survivors*" Versus van bombs, I suppose putting a train or part of it off the track may seem unimportant. Or unworthy of their needy egos.


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## jis (Aug 4, 2013)

Remember that all that is reported in the US news media are the few attempts that actually succeed to cause serious mayhem. Attempts that are detected and mitigated are not reported at all.

For eample, just the other day there was a track bombing just outside of Gaya Jn. in India on the Kolkata - Delhi route just ahead of the time when three Rajdhani Expresses are scheduled to pass that area. The track damage was detected by gangmen and trains were regulated so they did not get to the damaged track. The track was repaired and then the trains were again on their way afew hours behind schedule. The terrorists were not Islamic Jihadists but they were Maoists.

This sort of thing is reported only local press, and it is impossible to know about such from the press of the US where what Kim Kardashian did has way more importance that these sorts of things, and perhaps rightly so.


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## RRUserious (Aug 4, 2013)

India-Pakistan are so violent, I can understand how world press would shrug at their stories. Europe NEVER wants to reach that condition. To me, India is barely a state. No matter how enthusiastic some investment advisors get over its promise. I don't know the occurrences, but buses falling into canyons from roads that cross mountain slopes are one of their favorite catastrophes. Not sure how much better the rail system is. Indian culture is fantastic, but I've read over and over people who got out saying "I'd never go back there".


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 4, 2013)

jis said:


> Remember that all that is reported in the US news media are the few attempts that actually succeed to cause serious mayhem. Attempts that are detected and mitigated are not reported at all.
> For eample, just the other day there was a track bombing just outside of Gaya Jn. in India on the Kolkata - Delhi route just ahead of the time when three Rajdhani Expresses are scheduled to pass that area. The track damage was detected by gangmen and trains were regulated so they did not get to the damaged track. The track was repaired and then the trains were again on their way afew hours behind schedule. The terrorists were not Islamic Jihadists but they were Maoists.
> 
> This sort of thing is reported only local press, and it is impossible to know about such from the press of the US where what Kim Kardashian did has way more importance that these sorts of things, and perhaps rightly so.


It would have been better for the Maoists to detonate the bomb when the train was about to pass over. Goo thing they did not, or at least one Rajdhani would have been devestated.

Were there other trains in the area? I don't understand how three Rajdhanis would pass through together without any other trains.


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## jis (Aug 4, 2013)

One way you can keep a railroad fluid while running trains of vastly different speeds without affecting shedules of any class of train too adversely is to do bunching. Basically all the Rajdhanis are bunched together one after the other and sent through on clear track. A pilot engine is sent out before the first one which is there to detect such problems specially over Chhhota Nagpur Plateau in Chhattsigarh where there have been problems of lawlessness. This procedure was put in place after a Rajdhani was devastated many years ago. Since then there has not been any further incidents of that sort on this line.

The slower trains would follow the Rajdhanis.


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## RRUserious (Aug 4, 2013)

Kinda like the cavalry leading the wagon trains?


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## George Harris (Aug 4, 2013)

RRUserious said:


> India-Pakistan are so violent, I can understand how world press would shrug at their stories. Europe NEVER wants to reach that condition. To me, India is barely a state. No matter how enthusiastic some investment advisors get over its promise. I don't know the occurrences, but buses falling into canyons from roads that cross mountain slopes are one of their favorite catastrophes. Not sure how much better the rail system is. Indian culture is fantastic, but I've read over and over people who got out saying "I'd never go back there".


I have never been there, so I cannot say about the "never go back" bunch, However, I have seen quite a few "never go back" people that showed up in Taiwan and either did not complete their contract or either verbally or mentally said "729 to go" on their first day on the job and never changed their mind. However, there were also a lot that somewhere along the way decided that they really liked the place and stayed as long as they could. I was one of those. I am saying this to say that just because someone comes back from India and says they will never go back proves absolutely nothing.

When going on about these traffic and other accidents with numerous fatalities, remember the population and passenger-kilometers involved. I do not know the actual stats or even if this statement is true, but I have heard that on the basis of passenger-km the transportation fatalities in India are lower than in Western Europe. Before getting in an uproar about the dangers of traffic in India the reality of the accident rates needs to be determined.


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## RRUserious (Aug 5, 2013)

You misunderstand. I'm talking about _Indians _who get out and when asked if they make trips back shudder and say never.


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## jis (Aug 5, 2013)

And yet it is those same Indians that sustain three or four non stop flights each day from New York to India, not even mentioning the one stop flights to India! The dynamics of the NRI population and its relationship to India is complex. But not going back is actually a very small minority, and that too usually more due to financial reasons. Trips to India are expensive.


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## cirdan (Aug 5, 2013)

jis said:


> And yet it is those same Indians that sustain three or four non stop flights each day from New York to India, not even mentioning the one stop flights to India! The dynamics of the NRI population and its relationship to India is complex. But not going back is actually a very small minority, and that too usually more due to financial reasons. Trips to India are expensive.


 I think the OP was referring to going back to live, not just going back to visit relatives or cure homsickness. There are several Indian guys in my office and they tell me they wouldn't go back to live, but they're on and off the plane all the time for other reasons. Western expats going to India for placements in Indian companies and working for Indian bosses are typically offered generous packages by those Indian bosses normally involving them being pampered in gated communities and kept as far away from everyday life as possible. A good friend of mine did that and his Indian workmates basically had kittens when he started catching the bus to work and started frequenting average Joe type blue-collar places in his free time. They pleaded with him not to. I think that reflects on the negative way many Indians perceive their own country. Wrongly so in my opinion.


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## jis (Aug 5, 2013)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > And yet it is those same Indians that sustain three or four non stop flights each day from New York to India, not even mentioning the one stop flights to India! The dynamics of the NRI population and its relationship to India is complex. But not going back is actually a very small minority, and that too usually more due to financial reasons. Trips to India are expensive.
> ...


I was responding to the following statement by _RRUserious_:



> You misunderstand. I'm talking about Indians who get out and when asked if they make trips back shudder and say never.


I interpreted "trips" to mean visit, as opposed to immigrate.


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## RRUserious (Aug 5, 2013)

jis said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Well, my clarification is what I'm referring to. People who come to reside anywhere else on the planet and don't even visit because they are so glad to be away.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 5, 2013)

jis said:


> One way you can keep a railroad fluid while running trains of vastly different speeds without affecting shedules of any class of train too adversely is to do bunching. Basically all the Rajdhanis are bunched together one after the other and sent through on clear track. A pilot engine is sent out before the first one which is there to detect such problems specially over Chhhota Nagpur Plateau in Chhattsigarh where there have been problems of lawlessness. This procedure was put in place after a Rajdhani was devastated many years ago. Since then there has not been any further incidents of that sort on this line.
> The slower trains would follow the Rajdhanis.


Makes sense to do this without having to use quad-track. I assume that these overnight Rajdhani trains all run around the same time, so it's a good idea. What type of locomotive is the pilot engine?

I still think the Maoists could have dome much more damage. But they should not be going around killing civilians. If they are angry at the Indian government, these cowards should try to attack some police or military instead! Of course they don't because they are too weak to do it.



jis said:


> And yet it is those same Indians that sustain three or four non stop flights each day from New York to India, not even mentioning the one stop flights to India! The dynamics of the NRI population and its relationship to India is complex. But not going back is actually a very small minority, and that too usually more due to financial reasons. Trips to India are expensive.


Yes, R/T flights to India seem to run about $1600. Of course there are people that do it, there's also many flights from other cites, and AI seems to be considering SFO. EK also gets a lot of pax from India, helping to support the use of a massive 777 fleet, much larger than any other 777 fleets.


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## RRUserious (Aug 5, 2013)

> I still think the Maoists could have dome much more damage. But they should not be going around killing civilians. If they are angry at the Indian government, these cowards should try to attack some police or military instead! Of course they don't because they are too weak to do it.


Not exactly. They've attacked the police and military over and over. Wouldnt be that hard to find many news stories. Seems to me its the jihadists that attack public transportation.



> The conflict in Andhra Pradesh intensified as Naxalite rebel groups, in particular the PWG, continued guerrilla attacks on police and government targets while the security forces stepped up counter-insurgency efforts. An October assassination attempt on Chief Minister N. Chandrababu Naidu was consistent with the *PWG’s practice of targeting government officials* to draw attention to their cause. According to independent media reports, as many as 500 people were killed in the conflict this year, half of these Maoist rebels.[53]


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 7, 2013)

RRUserious said:


> > I still think the Maoists could have dome much more damage. But they should not be going around killing civilians. If they are angry at the Indian government, these cowards should try to attack some police or military instead! Of course they don't because they are too weak to do it.
> 
> 
> Not exactly. They've attacked the police and military over and over. Wouldnt be that hard to find many news stories. Seems to me its the jihadists that attack public transportation.
> ...


What the heck? What's going on with all these Maoists, Jihadists, and I assume Marxist-Leninists as well? Then there's problems in Kashmir and with Pakistan, Bangladesh, and the China border dispute. India sure is confusing, but they seem to doing pretty well in day-to-day life. Improving economy, life expectation, and the slow-but-steady decrease of poverty seem to point towards a good future.

Plus, you have to admit, Indian Railways is a grand system.


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## RRUserious (Aug 7, 2013)

Never been on it. Can't tell from video if it is or not. I wonder who in the world does have the premier rail system. I can guess easily where it is not, but not where they've done the best job.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 11, 2013)

RRUserious said:


> Never been on it. Can't tell from video if it is or not. I wonder who in the world does have the premier rail system. I can guess easily where it is not, but not where they've done the best job.


I'd say Germany. They have huge rail mode-share in transport, and very high ridership per capita. Switzerland has the highest, but their system is so small that it might as well be consdered huge commuter rail.


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## RRUserious (Aug 11, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> > Never been on it. Can't tell from video if it is or not. I wonder who in the world does have the premier rail system. I can guess easily where it is not, but not where they've done the best job.
> ...


My Swiss teacher friend says their engineers run red lights all the time.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 15, 2013)

RRUserious said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > RRUserious said:
> ...


The Swiss, but I don't know about Germany. I haven't ridden in a German cab, of course, so I wouldn't know anyway. AFAIK, the light always turns red after the train passes it. How does your friend know?


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## jis (Aug 16, 2013)

As I mentioned before, any information about running red lights from someone who does not know the rulebook is mostly spurious.

All Amtrak, LIRR, Metro North and assorted other outfits drivers regularly run red signals on the NEC too. But that is according to rules as I explained earlier in this thread.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 16, 2013)

jis said:


> As I mentioned before, any information about running red lights from someone who does not know the rulebook is mostly spurious.
> All Amtrak, LIRR, Metro North and assorted other outfits drivers regularly run red signals on the NEC too. But that is according to rules as I explained earlier in this thread.


Unless an engineer himself says it, of course.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2013)

It would be a reasonable assumption that an engineer qualified on a route knows the rule book that applies to that route/territory.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 17, 2013)

jis said:


> It would be a reasonable assumption that an engineer qualified on a route knows the rule book that applies to that route/territory.


Yes, yes.


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