# What is your predictive outlook for the future of Amtrak in the next 3 years?



## 20th Century Rider (Jan 10, 2021)

Based on your past experiences and understanding of what is going on in the world today, where do you think Amtrak will be 2 or 3 years from now? We have the ‘givens’ of a new national administration, uncertainty with a tragic pandemic, concerns for the environment, and an economy that needs to turn around.

What actually does happen will likely be determined by need, resources, attitudes, optimism, and a stabilizing world. I do wonder that if responses from this forum are examined collectively… this could be a real and credible possible forecast?

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Amtrak Outlines Plan to Restore Long-Distance Trains in 2021

Rail Insider-Ushering in the next generation: Amtrak prepares to introduce its trainsets of the future. Information For Rail Career Professionals From Progressive Railroading Magazine


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## Tlcooper93 (Jan 10, 2021)

I personally believe we have reasons to be optimistic other than the new train friendly government.
The word is out to most people: trains are a crucial part of a country’s infrastructure system and have been tragically neglected in America.

a few soft predictions:
-The gateway project completed
-complete dedicated HSR tracks for the Acela, and upgrades (such as bridges) that allow for shorter travel times
-Re-evaluation of night trains for better or for worse
-announce official Superliner replacements


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## jis (Jan 10, 2021)

Well, if the country does not collapse upon itself in internecine warfare we might get marginally better trains here and there. I can predict this with absolute certainty


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## IndyLions (Jan 13, 2021)

Frankly, I think we will know a lot more after the first 100 days.

I’m really concerned things could really get off track during that time period - especially if impeachment proceeds right away. Congress will be at a standstill - and nothing will happen with infrastructure - which is where Amtrak fits in.

If, on the other hand we can move forward and see some reasonable level of cooperation between parties – that can only be good for Amtrak.

I apologize if someone thinks that this is a political post. It’s not meant to be. When and whether impeachment happens will have a big impact on how much and how soon Biden is able to advance his agenda. And infrastructure is a big part of his agenda.


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## Exvalley (Jan 13, 2021)

My biggest concern is that, while the new administration will be friendly to Amtrak, there will be numerous other projects that take precedence - and that Amtrak will be "okay", but any improvements will be incremental.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 13, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> My biggest concern is that, while the new administration will be friendly to Amtrak, there will be numerous other projects that take precedence - and that Amtrak will be "okay", but any improvements will be incremental.


With the focus being on saving lives from the pandemic, the economy, and the environment... will get justifiable priority, I kind-a think that Amtrak will come soon after... Amtrak Joe is showing us he cares about Amtrak in his plans to take the train to the inauguration... but along with many other AU'ers, I have my fingers crossed for Amtrak!


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## Tlcooper93 (Jan 13, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Frankly, I think we will know a lot more after the first 100 days.
> 
> I’m really concerned things could really get off track during that time period - especially if impeachment proceeds right away. Congress will be at a standstill - and nothing will happen with infrastructure - which is where Amtrak fits in.
> 
> ...



I think your post is fine, as trains and politics in the country are deeply intertwined.

From what I understand (which could be wrong), Biden's economic plan includes an infrastructure overall, and centering job creation around that concept, which would be good for trains.

My hope is that if we can get the virus under control in the first two quarters, that by fall/winter 2021 and early 2022, projects like the Gateway tunnel can be addressed.

Worst case scenario, I think, is we see a marginally better funded Amtrak. This is still is good news for things like rolling stock, track improvements, and smaller projects. 


Best case scenario, I think, is a few major projects, such as proposed routes, gain significant traction, and maybe even break ground. My personal hope is the South Station expansion project, which would see the station double its tracks, and return to its former glory days. As the northern Terminus for the NE Corridor, this would significantly change Acela/NE regional experience for the better, and allow more trains to run.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 13, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> We have the ‘givens’ of a new national administration, uncertainty with a tragic pandemic, concerns for the environment, and an economy that needs to turn around.


I find it hard to move past the violent insurrection, breaching of our Capitol, and lack of resolve in punishing the promoters. Maybe if we can neutralize the subversive elements I can get back to worrying about Amtrak again.



IndyLions said:


> I’m really concerned things could really get off track during that time period - especially if impeachment proceeds right away. Congress will be at a standstill - and nothing will happen with infrastructure - which is where Amtrak fits in.


If you can confirm a Supreme Court Justice in 8 days you can impeach a President in 10.



IndyLions said:


> If, on the other hand we can move forward and see some reasonable level of cooperation between parties – that can only be good for Amtrak.


We can either have justice _or_ we can move forward with sweeping everything under the rug again. Since moving forward only seems to lead to further subversion and dysfunction I suggest we try the other path for a change.


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## Exvalley (Jan 13, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> If you can confirm a Supreme Court Justice in 8 days you can impeach a President in 10.


Biden is concerned that impeachment will negatively impact his ability to quickly implement his agenda.








Biden pushes to prevent impeachment from upending his agenda | CNN Politics


President-elect Joe Biden is pushing to keep impeachment from consuming his agenda and overshadowing the early days of his administration, as he tries to avoid the appearance of either promoting the proceedings or trying to stop them.




www.cnn.com





Whether or not this will impact Amtrak remains to be seen.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 13, 2021)

When a train derails, a crew arrives t lift the stock and repair it if possible, they fix the track to get trains rolling again, then they investigate for cause, investigate measures to be taken so same doesn't happen again, look everywhere else to see if similar flaws exist, make safety improvements ... pass legislation and or laws to promote that safety, and remain vigilant reminded that 'perfection' is always being chased by those who know nothing on the planet is absolutely perfect.

The same can be said for a lot of things that have been happening. It's not a perfect world.

Few stop to realize and consider there has never been an extended period of time when there was total peace in the world. That's because life isn't perfect.

About that derailed train... things become fixed again and trains once again start moving.


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## jis (Jan 13, 2021)

It did take quite a while to get trains running again on Point Defiance Bypass. Have they started running again. I had heard it was imminent.

And BTW, the Talgo 6s one of which was involved in the crash, are not going to ever run again in commercial service. Fixing things takes time, unless everything is swept under a rug until the next time. In the process of fixing some things don't ever happen again, including hopefully the accident of the sort.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 13, 2021)

jis said:


> It did take quite a while to get trains running again on Point Defiance Bypass. Have they started running again. I had heard it was imminent.
> 
> And BTW, the Talgo 6s one of which was involved in the crash, are not going to ever run again in commercial service. Fixing things takes time, unless everything is swept under a rug until the next time. In the process of fixing some things don;t ever happen again, including hopefully the accident of the sort.



Supposedly it will open this year. I've been through there on I-5 many times and that is a very tight curve!









Digest: Point Defiance Bypass service to resume in spring or summer 2021 | Trains Magazine


News Wire Digest fourth section for Dec. 4: SMART gets approval to take over Northwestern Pacific; Vancouver transit agency hit by ransomware attack



trn.trains.com




.


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## AmtrakFlyer (Jan 13, 2021)

Cautiously optimistic on all fronts.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 13, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> Biden is concerned that impeachment will negatively impact his ability to quickly implement his agenda. Whether or not this will impact Amtrak remains to be seen.


Lame duck impeachment is unlikely to help a president-elect but neither is it likely to hurt him so long as he makes it clear this is not his initiative. What it does do is push incumbents out of the spin zone and into the record books. How that plays out is anyone's guess but this move may also give a 50+1 party some additional leverage as they negotiate rules and committees. What the president-elect really needs right now is for everyone to _survive_ inauguration, which is kind of mind numbing to type honestly, but it's also the truth.


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## Exvalley (Jan 13, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Lame duck impeachment is unlikely to help a president-elect but neither is it likely to hurt him so long as he makes it clear this is not his initiative.


I am pretty sure that Biden is more worried about Congress being distracted (and not acting quickly on his legislative proposals) than Biden himself being distracted.


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## jis (Jan 13, 2021)

In this country everyone needs to learn to walk and chew gum at the same time instead of making silly excuses about why that might be impossible.  Both the impeachment and the next round of stimulus is important. Fortunately the issue of the 2021 Appropriation is already done, so that does not need any more attention. Meanwhile Biden has a large enough pile of Executive Orders to undo with Executive Orders and get the COVID issue to fix with proper execution of the use of funds already appropriated.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 13, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I am pretty sure that Biden is more worried about Congress being distracted (and not acting quickly on his legislative proposals) than Biden himself being distracted.


The House will be done debating and voting by the time the next president is sworn and the scheduling/severity of any Senate action will probably be up to an as-yet undetermined de facto majority leader. This detail will likely be referenced in power sharing negotiations between parties. How much weight it carries (if any) is also yet to be determined and probably depends on what the current administration does (or fails to do) between now and then.


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## fredmcain (Jan 13, 2021)

When Bill Clinton got elected in 1992, I got my hopes up that he would really do something for Amtrak and rail transit. But I was disappointed. Then, when Obama got in there, I was *REALLY* encouraged with some of his rhetoric. But again, we were let down.

So, with Biden will it be different this time? I certainly hope so but I'm not holding my breath either. I do think there are reasons once again to be encouraged but...........................


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## sttom (Jan 13, 2021)

My guess would be the clock being rolled back to 2014 as far as Amtrak is concerned considering that was what was promised on the campaign trail. I’m fairly certain the following will happen

1) More money for NEC infrastructure. 
2) RFP for Superliner Replacement. 
3) Maybe funding for the pathetic 2035 plan in conjunction with NEC funding to get people from the rest of America accepting an equal amount just going to the NEC.

Two things I’m certain about are 1) the 750 will not die since anything Obama did was an act of Gods love (saying this with full sarcasm) that can never be contradicted. At most it might be loosened a bit and 2) a bunch of states will refuse free money for new Amtrak routes because of the 750 mile rule.


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## Exvalley (Jan 13, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The House will be done debating and voting by the time the next president is sworn and the scheduling/severity of any Senate action will probably be up to an as-yet undetermined de facto majority leader...


Interesting. In essence, you are accusing Biden and his advisors of being wrong about the likelihood of impeachment as a distraction. The Biden campaign has taken a different position, especially since we now know that the Senate will not take the matter up until Biden is President. Biden's team has suggested that the Senate alternate days between impeachment and addressing Biden's agenda. Since Biden's proposed compromise only gives him half of the Senate's attention, his team is clearly concerned.

In any event, if the Senate is looking in the rear view mirror for much of their time, one has to wonder how much attention will be left for forward looking matters. Something will have to give, which is why Biden is trying to mitigate the negative impact.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 13, 2021)

fredmcain said:


> When Bill Clinton got elected in 1992, I got my hopes up that he would really do something for Amtrak and rail transit. But I was disappointed. Then, when Obama got in there, I was *REALLY* encouraged with some of his rhetoric. But again, we were let down. So, with Biden will it be different this time? I certainly hope so but I'm not holding my breath either. I do think there are reasons once again to be encouraged but...........................


The first two years of 44's administration approved billions for passenger rail that was used to upgrade tracks and repair rolling stock, but the Executive branch does not exist in a vacuum and after the opposition turned on passenger rail further progress was blocked and reversed at every turn. Not sure how you missed that but it's still true today.



Exvalley said:


> Since Biden's proposed compromise only gives him half of the Senate's attention, his team is clearly concerned.


Half the Senate's attention plus a tie-breaker should be plenty.



Exvalley said:


> In any event, if the Senate is looking in the rear view mirror for much of their time, one has to wonder how much attention will be left for forward looking matters.


Considering that no time has yet been lost one has to wonder what you're actually so worried about.


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## jis (Jan 13, 2021)

I am not sure how the direction that the Senate would be viewing under a new leadership would or would not be related to what it has been doing under the current leadership. What is the evidence that they will continue to "look at rear view mirror" whatever that might mean?


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## Exvalley (Jan 13, 2021)

My point is merely that Biden's administration is concerned that impeachment will negatively impact Biden's ability to get his agenda pushed through in a timely manner. Presumably this could have some collateral consequences in regard to Amtrak.


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## me_little_me (Jan 13, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Half the Senate's attention plus a tie-breaker should be plenty.


That's not how it works. All it would take is a solid Republican party and one Democrat who opposes a particular piece of legislation and it will fail.

In reality, I would expect some more conservative Democrats and those who represent more conservative districts to cross the line at times and, on the other hand, more liberal Republicans and those who represent more liberal districts to do the same.

The bigger reality - money talks. Have big donors at want you to vote their way and you are not in a "safe" district and what few ethics you have quickly go out the window. And if it means trading away what you would go along with to get something you want, ethics again takes a back seat - on both sides.


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## jis (Jan 13, 2021)

Currently there are two major means for providing additional funding to Amtrak, since I doubt anyone will entertain an Amtrak only bill in the busy schedule.

1. The next round of Stimulus, which everyone wants on the Democratic side and most like a biug chunk of Republicans will now oppose as they flop over conveniently to the fiscal conservative side again. This is unlikely to be ignored impeachment or not.

2. The 2022 Appropriation - that is still a few months away. I don't think impeachment will last that long.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 13, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> That's not how it works. All it would take is a solid Republican party and one Democrat who opposes a particular piece of legislation and it will fail.


It was intended as a joke because he wasn't _actually_ talking about voting or power sharing, but I'm no author and sarcasm can be easy to botch in written form. I'm in general agreement with the rest of your post.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 13, 2021)

fredmcain said:


> When Bill Clinton got elected in 1992, I got my hopes up that he would really do something for Amtrak and rail transit. But I was disappointed. Then, when Obama got in there, I was *REALLY* encouraged with some of his rhetoric. But again, we were let down.
> 
> So, with Biden will it be different this time? I certainly hope so but I'm not holding my breath either. I do think there are reasons once again to be encouraged but...........................



We can only hope. But there is a need now more than ever before for a strong national rail service... also there is a strong push to get local rapid transit going and growing... as can be seen on city websites. But we need to get past the pandemic.

There may be a correlation between building and rebuilding a strong national rail system... as mentioned before on the forum; after WWII it was the US Interstate System... now it's Amtrak's turn!  ☺


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## IndyLions (Jan 13, 2021)

jis said:


> ...most likely a big chunk of Republicans will now oppose as they flop over conveniently to the fiscal conservative side again...



This is so freaking hilarious and yet so true. They spend like drunken sailors when they are in control, but dust off the “fiscal responsibility” platform otherwise.

Democrats just spend like drunken sailors all the time 

On a more serious note, I will be interested to see when Biden makes his giant infrastructure push. That’s well overdue. Trump probably would have floated something ginormous if he hadn’t gotten so distracted by his wall.

I would think Biden rather than Trump floating an infrastructure proposal helps Amtrak’s odds of benefitting more from the plan.

Obviously, getting through the Covid crisis as quickly as possible both health-wise and economically is Job One.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 13, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Democrats just spend like drunken sailors all the time



Well said... you got a gift for writing... when is your first book due out! 

Eee gads... What can I say... taxes are rising and making Oregon too expensive for many retirees. Gas is up 30 cents per gal in the last two weeks. So... ya gotta pay for all of this stuff with something... just one ongoing tug-o-war. My property taxes were over $4000; local, state, and Federal dig deep into my pension which isn't protected. What's a retired school teacher to do?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 13, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Well said... you got a gift for writing... when is your first book due out!
> 
> Eee gads... What can I say... taxes are rising and making Oregon too expensive for many retirees. Gas is up 30 cents per gal in the last two weeks. So... ya gotta pay for all of this stuff with something... just one ongoing tug-o-war. My property taxes were over $4000; local, state, and Federal dig deep into my pension which isn't protected. What's a retired school teacher to do?


Oregon's nice, but if you get priced out theres several good States for retirees, depends on what you like and can afford!


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 13, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Oregon's nice, but if you get priced out theres several good States for retirees, depends on what you like and can afford!


Yes, I know... but once you get here you don't want to leave! 🏕


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## west point (Jan 14, 2021)

The Senate is handicapped from its final make up. Here in Georgia there appears no rush to certify the election of the new Senators. The counties ( may be solid republican ones ) are not even required to certify their election results until I believe Friday afternoon. Then the Secretary of state is not required to certify until I believe Jan 28. 
So with the one Senator that was appointed she will not loose her seat until Senate is notified the present Senate . The present Senate is R - 51 and D -48. When the new Senators are seated then it will be R - 50 D - 50 + VP's vote . Since that will not happen until probably after Jan 20th expect a continuing R agenda. My worry is that there may be a possibility of claims stolen election that the Runoffs were tainted here in Georgia delaying the Senate going to 50/ 50 ?.


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## IndyLions (Jan 14, 2021)

west point said:


> The Senate is handicapped from its final make up. Here in Georgia there appears no rush to certify the election of the new Senators. The counties ( may be solid republican ones ) are not even required to certify their election results until I believe Friday afternoon. Then the Secretary of state is not required to certify until I believe Jan 28.
> So with the one Senator that was appointed she will not loose her seat until Senate is notified the present Senate . The present Senate is R - 51 and D -48. When the new Senators are seated then it will be R - 50 D - 50 + VP's vote . Since that will not happen until probably after Jan 20th expect a continuing R agenda. My worry is that there may be a possibility of claims stolen election that the Runoffs were tainted here in Georgia delaying the Senate going to 50/ 50 ?.



Good points - but I wouldn’t sweat that too much.

McConnell has pretty much established nothing is going to happen in the Senate until the 19th. And even then, the gears of government grind slowly.


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## IndyLions (Jan 14, 2021)

This isn’t really a predictive outlook, it’s more of a wish list. But what the heck.

For Amtrak, 3 things:

Competent management, competent management, competent management. PLEASE put people in place with a vision for the future and a passion to serve America with a great transportation network.
A consistent, dedicated funding source. Something sensible, sufficient, and not too controversial. I don’t want it reversed by the next Congress.
Rolling stock, rolling stock, rolling stock. You can’t provide service without equipment. Modern, attractive equipment that is functional and comfortable.
Now on a more local level. I’m a Midwest guy, and would like to see improvements in the Midwest.

One of the biggest problems in the Midwest is all the rail congestion around Chicago. There are a number of projects already outlined (Gateway, etc), let’s get every one of them funded and complete. If others are viable as well, such as expanded capacity on the South Shore with a viable connection to the Michigan Services and Chicago Union Station – let’s do those as well.
Destroy whatever barriers are left preventing 115 mph running in Illinois and Michigan. It’s taking too darn long.
Michigan has made a big investment in passenger rail, and I’d like to see that continue. I’d like to see funding to allow them to acquire trackage from Detroit to Toledo, and to start upgrading that as a viable corridor - and connection to the national network.
While we are in Michigan, fund the connection of the new Michigan Central Station to the Michigan rail network. It just makes sense for that to be the gateway to a resurgent Detroit. And I can’t imagine a better first train than Chicago to Toronto via Detroit. There’s a lot of work to be done there politically as well as financially, but we’re thinking big here.
In Indiana and Ohio, let’s get investment going in real Corridors. Neither of those legislatures are going to be impressed with a slow train running over slow tracks – so let’s paint a vision of the future and start breaking ground on a reasonable high speed Corridor. Let’s at least get it to where Michigan is, publicly owned tracks that have the capability to run 115 miles an hour or better. 
Cincinnati-Columbus-Cleveland
Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Chicago.
Cleveland-Chicago

Sorry from transitioning from “predictive future” to “unrealistic wish list”.


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## Nick Farr (Jan 14, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> While we are in Michigan, fund the connection of the new Michigan Central Station to the Michigan rail network.



I'm pretty sure that's not even in the plans--and I'm not sure Ford would be behind that. 

It's actually a very awkward place for a railway station in Detroit. Something much closer to downtown would be preferable.


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## IndyLions (Jan 14, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> I'm pretty sure that's not even in the plans--and I'm not sure Ford would be behind that.
> 
> It's actually a very awkward place for a railway station in Detroit. Something much closer to downtown would be preferable.



No one is saying it will be easy.

Ford is open to it - they’ve committed to leaving the passenger tracks in place, and the entire Main Floor / Concourse is to remain open to the public. As with anything else there is funding to solve and a lot of hurdles to clear.

Awkward or not - it’s where the train station was located at the height of the train travel era. And besides, by the time the CHI-DET-TOR trains are in place, there will be Ford Autonomous Taxis driving visitors up and down the streets of Detroit. Kind of like a two-dimensional version of Bladerunner or The Fifth Element


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## flitcraft (Jan 14, 2021)

jis said:


> It did take quite a while to get trains running again on Point Defiance Bypass. Have they started running again. I had heard it was imminent.



Actually, your question is timely. This weekend they are scheduled to do test runs on the route, according to a radio report this morning, and are warning drivers to expect potential delays at the new level grade crossings in the bypass route.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 14, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> This isn’t really a predictive outlook, it’s more of a wish list. But what the heck.
> 
> For Amtrak, 3 things:
> 
> ...


Wow! You put some serious work into your excellent suggestions... no doubt reflective of your experience, research, and wisdom. BTW... lets get that STL CHI HS project completed! Bravo for an excellent post!


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## Sauve850 (Jan 14, 2021)

Top priority should be getting cabinet nominees confirmed. As to infrastructure, stocks are usually forward looking. Many infrastructure companies/funds reflect in their pricing its going to happen. Does that benefit Amtrak? Somewhat I hope.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 14, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> Actually, your question is timely. This weekend they are scheduled to do test runs on the route, according to a radio report this morning, and are warning drivers to expect potential delays at the new level grade crossings in the bypass route.


Hopefully theyve trained the Crews better after that Disaster on the First " Official "run!


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## jiml (Jan 14, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> And besides, by the time the CHI-DET-TOR trains are in place, there will be Ford Autonomous Taxis driving visitors up and down the streets of Detroit. Kind of like a two-dimensional version of Bladerunner or The Fifth Element


Nailed it!


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## me_little_me (Jan 14, 2021)

jiml said:


> Nailed it!


No! A Toyota one. Or a Google one. Or some company that doesn't even exist yet. American car manufacturers have mostly, with few exceptions, become followers rather than leaders. So the only chance of Ford having it is everyone else has already reached that point. 

If your next quarter isn't good, you are toast so they don't innovately plan for long term.


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## caravanman (Jan 15, 2021)

Sad to look back on the rail accident mentioned above, I believe some A.U. or other train website fans were among those who lost their lives?
My worry about the future is that new Corona virus variants are appearing now... If there is no worry about the current vaccines not working against the new variants, why are certain countries being banned from travelling? Hopes of getting back to "normal" in the next few quarters seem very optimistic to me?


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 15, 2021)

Patience! Wait a little bit... the landscape is rapidly changing. 

Powered by optimism and hope, 'better' is on the way!


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## IndyLions (Jan 15, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> No! A Toyota one. Or a Google one. Or some company that doesn't even exist yet. American car manufacturers have mostly, with few exceptions, become followers rather than leaders. So the only chance of Ford having it is everyone else has already reached that point.
> 
> If your next quarter isn't good, you are toast so they don't innovately plan for long term.



There is nothing innovative about Toyota. They don’t really invent anything, they just do what everybody else does with very high quality. That’s not innovation, that’s good execution.


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## jiml (Jan 15, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> No! A Toyota one. Or a Google one. Or some company that doesn't even exist yet. American car manufacturers have mostly, with few exceptions, become followers rather than leaders. So the only chance of Ford having it is everyone else has already reached that point.
> 
> If your next quarter isn't good, you are toast so they don't innovately plan for long term.


I was simply agreeing with @IndyLions humorous statement that autonomous taxis were more likely to be seen before the restoration of the Toronto-Detroit train - nothing to do with vehicle manufacturers.


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## cirdan (Jan 15, 2021)

My two cents worth.

There has over the last decades been a shift from rural living to urban living. This has to do with population increase, but also with where the new jobs are being created. The growth of cities has brought with it congestion and the associated side effects such as lost productivity and pollution. This is what has driven mass transportation projects ranging from incremental improvements in bus systems to light and heavy rail for commuters. But also corridor trains (which are in effect super-commuter trains).

People were assuming this was going to continue. Cities getting bigger and bigger with more commuting and thus more transit.

I think maybe in the longer term this will change. Covid has taught us that people working from home is something that works. This may in the long term change commuting habits, reduce congestion, and even permit people to move back to rural areas where houses are cheaper and life more wholesome.

This may reduce the need for further investment in transit and also corridor rail, while maybe providing a slight boost to LD rail.


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## cirdan (Jan 15, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The first two years of 44's administration approved billions for passenger rail that was used to upgrade tracks and repair rolling stock, but the Executive branch does not exist in a vacuum and after the opposition turned on passenger rail further progress was blocked and reversed at every turn. Not sure how you missed that but it's still true today.



Much of what was done was fixing or replacing stuff that was broken. In a properly run railroad, that sort of stuff is considered maintenance, not investment, and is duly budgeted for. 

Then there was the high speed rail plan, for which a lot of starting money was put on the table. But much of that got frittered away, and now there is little to show for it.

A daily Sunset Limited or a train between New Orleans and Florida is about as remote today, if not even remoter, than when Obama took office.


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## railiner (Jan 15, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> No! A Toyota one. Or a Google one. Or some company that doesn't even exist yet. American car manufacturers have mostly, with few exceptions, become followers rather than leaders.


Exceptions, such as these?








Tesla, Inc. - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




.

And long before that, there was this...










General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




.


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## me_little_me (Jan 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> Exceptions, such as these?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tesla didn't exist until it came out with the electric. It is one of those that qualified as "doesn't exist yet" as opposed to the traditional car manufacturers who were just followers.

As to GM, they just dabbled in it. Per your article, the dumped the whole idea in spite of customers and because they couldn't make a profit. They didn't really make a commitment to EVs. Note that if EVs die, so does Tesla as that is their business as is true with some other startups in the business.

As to this thread, we have gone far and wide from it so I will say no more on the subject of EVs here. Others are free to keep the subject of EVs going as so many topics on this forum do the same wandering far and wide.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 15, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Much of what was done was fixing or replacing stuff that was broken. In a properly run railroad, that sort of stuff is considered maintenance, not investment, and is duly budgeted for.


Which is why we need multi-year authorizations and allocations.



cirdan said:


> Then there was the high speed rail plan, for which a lot of starting money was put on the table. But much of that got frittered away, and now there is little to show for it.


It wasn't frittered away so much as refused, returned and rescinded after the fact.



cirdan said:


> A daily Sunset Limited or a train between New Orleans and Florida is about as remote today, if not even remoter, than when Obama took office.


What does the Sunset's schedule have to do with the office of the President?


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## McIntyre2K7 (Jan 15, 2021)

Things I would like to see:

1. Trains back to daily service. 
2. Arrival of new trains or an announcement of a contract where the whole fleet is being replaced. I haven't been on an Amtrak train but from the videos I've watched they look really old. Why would I want to ride something that looks really old? You can't look the sleeper cabin doors from the outside?? I mean replace the doors and add a keycard lock like they have a hotels. 

3. A route that goes Orlando to Chicago via the following cities Jacksonville/Atlanta/Nashville/Louisville/Indianapolis 
4. A Gulf Coast Service (Miami or Orlando to New Orleans) to replace the "suspended" part of the Sunset limited.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 15, 2021)

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Things I would like to see:
> 
> 1. Trains back to daily service.
> 2. Arrival of new trains or an announcement of a contract where the whole fleet is being replaced. I haven't been on an Amtrak train but from the videos I've watched they look really old. Why would I want to ride something that looks really old? You can't look the sleeper cabin doors from the outside?? I mean replace the doors and add a keycard lock like they have a hotels.
> ...


Daily Texas Eagle CHI-LAX, LA to Vegas,Return of the Cross Border Trains to Canada, Daily Cardinal


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## flitcraft (Jan 15, 2021)

caravanman said:


> My worry about the future is that new Corona virus variants are appearing now... If there is no worry about the current vaccines not working against the new variants, why are certain countries being banned from travelling? Hopes of getting back to "normal" in the next few quarters seem very optimistic to me?


What I have been told is that the variant viruses have not changed the nature of the protein shell of the virus--which is what the mRNA vaccines train the body to create antibodies for. What makes the UK and South Africa variants so problematic is that they are considerably more contagious than the earlier variants, most likely due to causing infected persons to shed more viral load. Since it is clear that even the most efficient vaccine rollout is not going to cover most of the population for some months, trying to keep the more transmissible variants out of circulation makes sense if you want to reduce sickness and deaths in the near term future. Hence, the attempt to keep the variants out by reducing or banning travel from affected countries. (In my non-expert opinion, though, travel bans probably will be ineffective; by the time you realize that a highly contagious mutation is circulating in Country A, travel from Country A to the rest of the globe has likely already introduced it.)

As you say, normal isn't in our immediate future, sadly. But if we squint, we can just about see how normal, or close to normal, could be achieved by late 2021. Depending on how governments and populations react, of course.


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## Nick Farr (Jan 15, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> No one is saying it will be easy.
> 
> Ford is open to it - they’ve committed to leaving the passenger tracks in place, and the entire Main Floor / Concourse is to remain open to the public. As with anything else there is funding to solve and a lot of hurdles to clear.



Where did you see a commitment to leave the passenger tracks in place? All the renderings I'm seeing imply they're being ripped out. The other problem is that in the US, there are few passenger services in the US where passengers arrive at the platforms from below. Los Angeles Union Station is the only one I can think of with this arrangement. 

I'm saying it's not a good use of resources. MCS is not central to anything of interest in Detroit except maybe Slows? Putting the train station there means you don't have pedestrian access to things of interest or local transportation to get you to where you want to go. 

It makes a lot more sense to run a spur along Jefferson and have the train station become part of a dedicated intermodal facility with Amtrak, Greyhound, People Mover, services, etc. attached to COBO hall.

*It is way better/safer to have passengers take the train and arrive in the "center of the action"--so their game, conference, hotel, restaurants, etc. are within walking distance. It's better for commuter development to have a station drop in the center of offices and employment. It's not good for tourists or commuters to be dumped in an ugly part of town and expect them fight for taxis.*

Finally, the public spaces in the MCS don't really lend themselves to being a true train station. They're being redesigned to host big events, exhibits, etc. Any usage as a train station would be secondary and routed around the spaces designed for use as a train station.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 15, 2021)

I can think of 4 other Stations where you accessed the Platforms from below,Penn Newark, Dallas Union Station via a Tunnel now Closed, Toronto Union Station and Oklahoma City.


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## jis (Jan 15, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I can think of 4 other Stations where you accessed the Platforms from below,Penn Newark, Dallas Union Station via a Tunnel now Closed, Toronto Union Station and Oklahoma City.


The modified Springfield MA is being designed for access from below AFAIR.

Isn't Birmingham AL from below too? How about Schenectady NY? And Oklahoma City OK? Not to mention Metropark and New Brunswick NJ.

What is wrong with accessing platforms from below anyway?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 15, 2021)

jis said:


> The modified Springfield MA is being designed for access from below AFAIR.
> 
> Isn't Birmingham AL from below too? How about Schenectady NY? And Oklahoma City OK? Not to mention Metropark and New Brunswick NJ.
> 
> What is wrong with accessing platforms from below anyway?


Wonder if the Old Stations that dont have Elevators or Escelators have a Waiver for ADA Regs?

I remember when we rode out to Paoli during the Philadelphia Gathering and had to Climb Stairs to cross over to the Station on the other side of the Tracks for the return since there were 2 Stations there.(I understand this has been updated to Modern standards now.)


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## railiner (Jan 15, 2021)

There are many elevated stations around, as well as ground level, that have “subway” underpasses...


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## cirdan (Jan 15, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> What does the Sunset's schedule have to do with the office of the President?



It's a litmus test for the rail friendliness of an administration.


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## John Bredin (Jan 15, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> I'm saying it's not a good use of resources. MCS is not central to anything of interest in Detroit except maybe Slows? Putting the train station there means you don't have pedestrian access to things of interest or local transportation to get you to where you want to go.


The problem is that MCS and the present Amtrak station in New Center are about as close to downtown Detroit as existing train tracks get. Were there stations any closer to downtown in decades past? If so, I presume those tracks were removed.



> It makes a lot more sense to run a spur along Jefferson and have the train station become part of a dedicated intermodal facility with Amtrak, Greyhound, People Mover, services, etc. attached to COBO hall.


Which would be a dead-end requiring a back-up move for _Wolverine_s to go on to Pontiac.

It makes a lot more sense to me to run a light rail line from downtown to MCS along Michigan Avenue, like the line that connects the present Amtrak station to downtown. Then future development would cluster along Michigan Ave., bringing downtown to the station rather than the station to downtown.  Michigan Ave. from its intersection with the MCS driveway to when it enters downtown (which I'm counting as 3rd Ave.) is almost exactly a mile. That's a lot closer to the existing downtown than New Center is, and IMHO close enough for downtown to "flow" there if there was something to draw development ... like a light rail line and/or MCS as an active station.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 15, 2021)

cirdan said:


> It's a litmus test for the rail friendliness of an administration.


The Sunset's schedule is primarily determined by the operator's interest in changing it, the host's willingness to cooperate, the budget's ability to pay reasonable impact fees, and regulator/judicial oversight to ensure fair dealing. None of this is controlled by the executive branch so I'm not sure why this would be a rational litmus test for them.


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## me_little_me (Jan 15, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The Sunset's schedule is primarily determined by the operator's interest in changing it, the host's willingness to cooperate, the budget's ability to pay reasonable impact fees, and regulator/judicial oversight to ensure fair dealing. None of this is controlled by the executive branch so I'm not sure why this would be a rational litmus test for them.


C'mon! Regulators are controlled by the executive branch. The Attorney General can sue for judicial oversight. The President has the biggest individual impact on the budget. And administration pressure on the host and operator is something that goes on all the time


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 15, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> C'mon! Regulators are controlled by the executive branch. The Attorney General can sue for judicial oversight. The President has the biggest individual impact on the budget. And administration pressure on the host and operator is something that goes on all the time


A properly functioning administration nominates directors and coordinates policy in general terms but it rarely micromanages regulators at such a low level. The Attorney General would need to have a very clean slate to think suing Union Pacific over a single route schedule was a wise use of time and money. A President's budget proposal is rarely given more than a passing glance and his direct influence is below that of the Senate and House Majority Leaders. A President could choose to veto a bill over a single route's schedule but why would he? Using the bully pulpit to bash a major corporate donor over a single route's schedule would be a high risk low reward proposition and other than a vague article we still haven't confirmed that Amtrak actually wanted the Sunset's schedule changed in the first place.


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## John Santos (Jan 15, 2021)

caravanman said:


> Sad to look back on the rail accident mentioned above, I believe some A.U. or other train website fans were among those who lost their lives?
> My worry about the future is that new Corona virus variants are appearing now... If there is no worry about the current vaccines not working against the new variants, why are certain countries being banned from travelling? Hopes of getting back to "normal" in the next few quarters seem very optimistic to me?



The current vaccines seem to work fine for the newest (UK and South Africa) variants. I think the reason for the travel bans is that there is very little vaccine penetration so far (less than 3% of the population of my state has received the first shot) and the new strains are much more contagious. Being more contagious, it takes a higher percentage of immunity (whether acquired from infection or from vaccination) to reduce the spread.
At 3% per month, it will take 30 months, or two and a half years, 12 quarters, to reach 90%! "The next few quarters" is wildly optimistic, even if the delivery rate doubles and new vaccines (i.e. the single-shot Astra-Zenica and Johnson & Johnson) get approved soon. I was really hoping for next summer .


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## IndyLions (Jan 16, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Where did you see a commitment to leave the passenger tracks in place? All the renderings I'm seeing imply they're being ripped out. The other problem is that in the US, there are few passenger services in the US where passengers arrive at the platforms from below. Los Angeles Union Station is the only one I can think of with this arrangement.



Here is the interview with the executive in charge of the project:








Ford is keeping the passenger tracks at Michigan Central Station


Ford's decision to transform the Michigan Central Station has raised hope that trains will run again. Send us your memories of the old station.



www.freep.com





Here is an excerpt from that article:
"That question is a lot bigger than I am," Dubensky said in an interview (when asked if Michigan Central would ever host passenger trains again), ...one of the things I can tell you we will do for sure is that when we redo the station, we will ensure that we protect four passenger tracks. Right now, there's two freight rail lines that run behind the station, and when we redo the back of the station, we'll ensure that whatever we do, we'll have the capability to bring passenger rail through there again.


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## IndyLions (Jan 16, 2021)

John Bredin said:


> The problem is that MCS and the present Amtrak station in New Center are about as close to downtown Detroit as existing train tracks get. Were there stations any closer to downtown in decades past? If so, I presume those tracks were removed.
> 
> Which would be a dead-end requiring a back-up move for _Wolverine_s to go on to Pontiac.



Detroit had three train stations, two which were significant. Michigan Central was a through station, and the Fort Street Union Depot was a terminal station. Fort Street was a little bit closer to downtown, but as a stub station required a back up move for every train. Michigan Central’s location was driven by its proximity to the mouth of the Detroit River Tunnel to Canada - but it’s also located within a mile of downtown on the main thoroughfare entering the city from the west.

But this isn’t about a return to the glory days. This is about having a train station that is actually located where things are happening and where people want to be. Not just stuck out somewhere in the suburbs, or in a beaten down part of the city where land can be acquired cheaply.


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## caravanman (Jan 16, 2021)

John Santos said:


> The current vaccines seem to work fine for the newest (UK and South Africa) variants. I think the reason for the travel bans is that there is very little vaccine penetration so far (less than 3% of the population of my state has received the first shot) and the new strains are much more contagious. Being more contagious, it takes a higher percentage of immunity (whether acquired from infection or from vaccination) to reduce the spread.
> At 3% per month, it will take 30 months, or two and a half years, 12 quarters, to reach 90%! "The next few quarters" is wildly optimistic, even if the delivery rate doubles and new vaccines (i.e. the single-shot Astra-Zenica and Johnson & Johnson) get approved soon. I was really hoping for next summer .


I understand the aspect that the new variants are more contagious, as also mentioned by Flitcraft, and I hope the vaccines are still effective. Maybe I am just a cynical old man who has lost faith in the pathetic official handling of this public health crisis!


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## bms (Jan 16, 2021)

caravanman said:


> I understand the aspect that the new variants are more contagious, as also mentioned by Flitcraft, and I hope the vaccines are still effective. Maybe I am just a cynical old man who has lost faith in the pathetic official handling of this public health crisis!



I agree with you, not even 40 and I'll believe the pandemic is over when I see it. I still think we will see a rather quick restoration of daily service on long distance routes.

Personally, I've already lost enough income hiding from the virus. I'm an Essential Worker in two different lines of work, equipped with the latest PPE and doing my work.

Beyond restoration of daily service, I doubt we'll see any new service until after the pandemic is over. I do think Senator Manchin wields enough power in a 50/50 Senate that we should see a return of daily service on the Cardinal. Senator Toomey now has a lot of power as well, and a daily Cardinal would also give Philadelphia a daily nonstop train to Chicago (something it never should have lacked).


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## Ziv (Jan 16, 2021)

Sorry to continue the thread jack, but the EV-1 was an excellent little 2 seater. People that leased it really liked it. But the battery pack cost a fortune and the range was just 60 miles for the first couple hundred built. They eventually got the range up to 160 miles but that pack only went into the last cars built. There were only 1100 of them built in total and the lease payments didn't even come close to paying what the cars cost to build. The problem was that the batteries needed "doesn't exist yet" at that point, or at least not at the price point needed to make the car without losing tens of thousands of dollars on each one, if GM had tried to sell them. But the engineering experience that went into the EV-1 is the reason GM was able to build the Volt and then the Bolt. Both were engineering achievements, but both were still too expensive to ever sell really well.
Tesla hit the market at the right time with the right idea. Take advantage of the rapid drop in Li-Ion cell prices (and the reduction in weight and volume didn't hurt either) to build a boutique roadster and then a luxury sedan. Eberhard and Tarpenning were brilliant guys, but Musk's arrival is what brought the company the leadership it needed to break out. Amazing achievement!


me_little_me said:


> Tesla didn't exist until it came out with the electric. It is one of those that qualified as "doesn't exist yet" as opposed to the traditional car manufacturers who were just followers.
> As to GM, they just dabbled in it. Per your article, the dumped the whole idea in spite of customers and because they couldn't make a profit. They didn't really make a commitment to EVs. Note that if EVs die, so does Tesla as that is their business as is true with some other startups in the business.
> 
> As to this thread, we have gone far and wide from it so I will say no more on the subject of EVs here. Others are free to keep the subject of EVs going as so many topics on this forum do the same wandering far and wide.


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## bms (Jan 16, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Detroit had three train stations, two which were significant. Michigan Central was a through station, and the Fort Street Union Depot was a terminal station. Fort Street was a little bit closer to downtown, but as a stub station required a back up move for every train. Michigan Central’s location was driven by its proximity to the mouth of the Detroit River Tunnel to Canada - but it’s also located within a mile of downtown on the main thoroughfare entering the city from the west.
> 
> But this isn’t about a return to the glory days. This is about having a train station that is actually located where things are happening and where people want to be. Not just stuck out somewhere in the suburbs, or in a beaten down part of the city where land can be acquired cheaply.



Well said. Currently, Dearborn and Ann Arbor get as many passengers as Detroit.


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## jis (Jan 16, 2021)

John Santos said:


> At 3% per month, it will take 30 months, or two and a half years, 12 quarters, to reach 90%! "The next few quarters" is wildly optimistic, even if the delivery rate doubles and new vaccines (i.e. the single-shot Astra-Zenica and Johnson & Johnson) get approved soon. I was really hoping for next summer .


Astra-Zeica is not a single shot vaccine. It requires two shots.

J&J is single shot but it is unlikely to complete its stage 3 trials until well into February, probably second half.

BTW, you require 70-75% for herd immunity with a good 90-95% efficacy vaccines, not 90%. As the vaccine efficacy goes down percentage required to be immunized goes up.

US has managed to get the first shot into 3.2% of the population so far, and serious vaccination, such as it is, really began in Jan. There was some earlier vaccination in December.

That is not to say that Warp Speed has been starved of Dilithium and been fed crap instead so it is not even running at Impulse speed. It needs a complete overhaul. Also the manufacturers have been having problem keeping up with their starry eyed projections too.


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## cirdan (Jan 16, 2021)

jis said:


> The modified Springfield MA is being designed for access from below AFAIR.
> 
> Isn't Birmingham AL from below too? How about Schenectady NY? And Oklahoma City OK? Not to mention Metropark and New Brunswick NJ.
> 
> What is wrong with accessing platforms from below anyway?



Jackson MS too I think.


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## cirdan (Jan 16, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The Sunset's schedule is primarily determined by the operator's interest in changing it, the host's willingness to cooperate, the budget's ability to pay reasonable impact fees, and regulator/judicial oversight to ensure fair dealing. None of this is controlled by the executive branch so I'm not sure why this would be a rational litmus test for them.



But this is not a new train.

The train was running right up until it was interrupted by Hurricane Katarina. So the budget was there. The equipment was there. The staff was there. The training and knowledge was there. The stations were there. The train path and schedule was there. The ridership was there. The host railroad's willingness to cooperate was (sort of) there. All it would have needed was a fist on the table saying, now quit the excuses and just do it.

Of course over time since then things have changed and it does indeed get more and more like starting a new train from scratch.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 16, 2021)

cirdan said:


> But this is not a new train.
> 
> The train was running right up until it was interrupted by Hurricane Katarina. So the budget was there. The equipment was there. The staff was there. The training and knowledge was there. The stations were there. The train path and schedule was there. The ridership was there. The host railroad's willingness to cooperate was (sort of) there. All it would have needed was a fist on the table saying, now quit the excuses and just do it.
> 
> Of course over time since then things have changed and it does indeed get more and more like starting a new train from scratch.


UP wanted an obscene amount to reinstate the Sunset East and run a Daily Eagle, and the story is that an Amtrak Exec backed out @ the last minute when a deal was reached???


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## jis (Jan 16, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> UP wanted an obscene amount to reinstate the Sunset East and run a Daily Eagle, and the story is that an Amtrak Exec backed out @ the last minute when a deal was reached???


AFAIR, restoring Sunset East was not part of the discussion involving restructuring of the Sunset/Eagle service. Amtrak has never asked for such an extension since the Katrina related suspension to my knowledge. Sunset East has pretty much been dead for a long time except in the feverish fantasy of some railfans.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 16, 2021)

jis said:


> AFAIR, restoring Sunset East was not part of the discussion involving restructuring of the Sunset/Eagle service. Amtrak has never asked for such an extension since the Katrina related suspension to my knowledge. Sunset East has pretty much been dead for a long time except in the feverish fantasy of some railfans.


You are correct, I should have said starting a stub Train from San Antonio to New Orleans was part of the Daily Eagle plan, and later when Boardman ran the PR Special from NOL to Florida, the idea was to start the new NOL- Jacksonvile or Orlando Route.


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## JayPea (Jan 16, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Jackson MS too I think.


Add Spokane to that list.


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## Nick Farr (Jan 17, 2021)

John Bredin said:


> Which would be a dead-end requiring a back-up move for _Wolverine_s to go on to Pontiac.



So would going to MCS.



> It makes a lot more sense to me to run a light rail line from downtown to MCS along Michigan Avenue, like the line that connects the present Amtrak station to downtown.



Unfortunately, the QLine as been a $200m failure already, one that is not worth repeating down Michigan Ave. The QLine runs down Woodward, which actually has a ton of attractions and residential density along its route. There is basically nothing pedestrian friendly between MCS and Downtown Detroit. 

For the same amount of money we can create a multi-modal service that actually delivers passengers into the core of Detroit, into a facility that is actually attractive as opposed to retrofitted into it. 

Now--none of this precludes making MCS a station itself, perhaps for luxury excursions, restoration of Detroit-Toronto passenger service, etc. I'm just saying that it should not be Detroit's *main* train station.


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## IndyLions (Jan 17, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> So would going to MCS.
> For the same amount of money we can create a multi-modal service that actually delivers passengers into the core of Detroit, into a facility that is actually attractive as opposed to retrofitted into it.


1. Show me on a map where this is even feasible, and I might buy it.
2. So you are suggesting that a new “Multi-modal station built in the heart of the city” built in 2020 would be both less expensive and more “attractive” than a restored MCS? That I don’t buy.


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## toddinde (Jan 17, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> 1. Show me on a map where this is even feasible, and I might buy it.
> 2. So you are suggesting that a new “Multi-modal station built in the heart of the city” built in 2020 would be both less expensive and more “attractive” than a restored MCS? That I don’t buy.


That doesn’t make any sense. Creating multiple Detroit stations is foolish. MCS is perfectly located for Chicago-Detroit-Toronto service, it’s a simple, short back up move to continue on to Pontiac, the facility is iconic, and an express bus route would deliver passengers to all downtown attractions in minutes. Not to mention Corktown will be a happening place with all Ford is pumping into it. This isn’t even worth debating. The solution is crystal clear. It is the only thing that makes any sense.


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## bms (Jan 18, 2021)

toddinde said:


> That doesn’t make any sense. Creating multiple Detroit stations is foolish. MCS is perfectly located for Chicago-Detroit-Toronto service, it’s a simple, short back up move to continue on to Pontiac, the facility is iconic, and an express bus route would deliver passengers to all downtown attractions in minutes. Not to mention Corktown will be a happening place with all Ford is pumping into it. This isn’t even worth debating. The solution is crystal clear. It is the only thing that makes any sense.



I rarely say this because I respect all opinions, but you're completely right here. Idk why Ford would spend all this money to renovate Michigan Central Station and not use it, but that's on them. Every Amtrak train should use Michigan Central Station for sure. Currently, Dearborn and Ann Arbor usually have more passengers than Detroit each year, and it's not like the AA station is good, people just don't want to go to the Detroit station!

Now if I'm getting really greedy, I'd ask for a train that goes from Cleveland to Detroit without stopping in Chicago, lol. I think there used to be an Amtrak train that bridged that Toledo-Detroit gap.


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## railiner (Jan 18, 2021)

bms said:


> I think there used to be an Amtrak train that bridged that Toledo-Detroit gap.


This one...








Lake Cities (Amtrak train) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org









__





The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)






www.timetables.org









__





The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)






www.timetables.org


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## jis (Jan 18, 2021)

If the rail planners in US were as rational as in most of the rest of the world, they would go straight for DEMUs or push pull trains and simply bring everything to MCS and have them change direction to serve onward places like Pontiac for Michigan Line service or the rest of the Michigan Line for service from Toledo. But that is usually too much to expect since it would remove the source of income for consultants to fund their next generation's colleges for years to come.


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## jiml (Jan 18, 2021)

toddinde said:


> That doesn’t make any sense. Creating multiple Detroit stations is foolish. MCS is perfectly located for Chicago-Detroit-Toronto service, it’s a simple, short back up move to continue on to Pontiac, the facility is iconic, and an express bus route would deliver passengers to all downtown attractions in minutes. Not to mention Corktown will be a happening place with all Ford is pumping into it. This isn’t even worth debating. The solution is crystal clear. It is the only thing that makes any sense.


It would be interesting to see how much actual traffic there is between Royal Oak/Birmingham/Pontiac and points between Detroit and Chicago. I've often wondered why this wasn't a commuter route. When Pontiac became the terminus "back in the day" it was more about Amtrak having a secure place to park trains overnight. I can remember boarding in Pontiac one morning with our family of 4 being 2/3 of the passengers.


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## bms (Jan 19, 2021)

jiml said:


> It would be interesting to see how much actual traffic there is between Royal Oak/Birmingham/Pontiac and points between Detroit and Chicago. I've often wondered why this wasn't a commuter route. When Pontiac became the terminus "back in the day" it was more about Amtrak having a secure place to park trains overnight. I can remember boarding in Pontiac one morning with our family of 4 being 2/3 of the passengers.



I would take the _Wolverine _all the way to Pontiac, but there isn't a hotel anywhere near the downtown. I agree that this should be a commuter route.

Detroit-Lansing-Grand Rapids seems to be a major missing link in the Michigan rail system. I'm not sure why the system is designed to get people to Chicago from various places in Michigan, but not to take people between the big cities in Michigan.


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## Ziv (Jan 19, 2021)

Stop right there! You mean MCS doesn't stand for Motor City Station?
I am crushed...





bms said:


> I rarely say this because I respect all opinions, but you're completely right here. Idk why Ford would spend all this money to renovate *Michigan Central Station* and not use it, but that's on them. ...


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## railiner (Jan 19, 2021)

bms said:


> I would take the _Wolverine _all the way to Pontiac, but there isn't a hotel anywhere near the downtown. I agree that this should be a commuter route.
> 
> Detroit-Lansing-Grand Rapids seems to be a major missing link in the Michigan rail system. I'm not sure why the system is designed to get people to Chicago from various places in Michigan, but not to take people between the big cities in Michigan.


I agree with this. I am guessing, it is more to do with Amtrak having its 'hub' in Chicago, crew base, maintenance base, commissary, lots of connections, etc., that just makes it more practical to skew the schedules that way. This was all in place before the state of Michigan got involved with funding service, I believe...


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## CAQuail (Jan 21, 2021)

I recall being told at a MARP meeting many years ago that when the state was doing the planning for the Pere Marquette they originally were looking at Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit. However, when looking at the potential ridership they found that there was stronger demand for service to Chicago from Grand Rapids than Detroit.


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## railiner (Jan 21, 2021)

CAQuail said:


> I recall being told at a MARP meeting many years ago that when the state was doing the planning for the Pere Marquette they originally were looking at Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit. However, when looking at the potential ridership they found that there was stronger demand for service to Chicago from Grand Rapids than Detroit.


That's one of the ironies of funding a service that will take your constituent's to another state to spend their money in for shopping, medical, recreation, etc...


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