# Daily Sunset Limited Campaign



## SanAntonioClyde (Feb 6, 2019)

Progress is being made in gaining support from various Texas cities served by the Sunset.  Since September 2018 we have gathered supporting resolutions from Jefferson Cty Judge (Beaumont), Mayor of Houston, San Antonio City council, Del Rio Mayor and county judge, Del Rio

chamber of Commerce, Terrell Cty Judge (Sanderson) and Alpine city council.  Mayor of Tucson has also supplied a supporting letter.  Now in process of backfilling to see addition support can be gathered.


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## Pere Flyer (Feb 7, 2019)

Strong signs of political support. A daily Sunset’s four key words are equipment, equipment, and Union Pacific.


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## neroden (Feb 11, 2019)

Think you can get Maricopa, Phoenix, or... I know it's a long shot... New Orleans?


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## SanAntonioClyde (Feb 11, 2019)

I'm just handling Texas for now.  Other RPA members have their own state challenges.


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## daybeers (Feb 12, 2019)

Anything I can do to help with this campaign from Connecticut?


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## cpotisch (Feb 12, 2019)

daybeers said:


> Anything I can do to help with this campaign from Connecticut?


Same question but from NYC?


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## SanAntonioClyde (Feb 12, 2019)

This Texan always welcome all the Yankee support he can get.  To answer both of you I would ask that when you speak to to your elected congressional representatives and Amtrak you stress the importance of having a true national rail system with reliable connectivity.  If you have had personal experiences traveling on the Sunset please let tell your story.


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## SanAntonioClyde (Sep 28, 2019)

We have received additional supporting resolutions and letters from all seven communities served by the Sunset Limited plus numerous surrounding areas; 100%+!

Now we enter phase 2 to push for funding to provide track capacity on UP line for increased passenger service.


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## Pere Flyer (Sep 29, 2019)

SanAntonioClyde said:


> We have received additional supporting resolutions and letters from all seven communities served by the Sunset Limited plus numerous surrounding areas; 100%+!
> 
> Now we enter phase 2 to push for funding to provide track capacity on UP line for increased passenger service.



Thanks for the update. Keep on fighting the good fight. Following this thread closely.


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## Willbridge (Sep 29, 2019)

I read this string and then read Alon Levy's blog and a sentence jumped out at me:
*"...as high frequency is useful on short trips and encourages higher ridership."
*
In working on Amtrak issues on other routes, I've often wondered how much of the _Sunset _poor performance is caused by having inherited less-than-daily operation from the SP. Over the years I've found the following useful (and even profitable at times): _The convenience of a headway is determined by the length in time of the prospective passenger's trip. _It's why we might wait 23 hours and 59 minutes for the one Lufthansa Denver - Frankfurt flight, but walk up a couple of flights of stairs when an elevator does not come right away. That rule of thumb suggests that only a New Orleans <> Los Angeles trip is convenient on a tri-weekly schedule. 

When some of us were working on the mandated PRIIA studies of two other of the three transcon lines, I think we all were sure that the Sunset Route and/or Texas Eagle in one of various combinations was the most likely to advance for negotiations with the UP (needed to get toward reality in terms of their actual needs and Amtrak's actual needs). Keep at it.


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## Pere Flyer (Sep 29, 2019)

@Willbridge, thanks for bringing Mr. Levy’s ideas to this forum. I too read his blog, and consider it gospel for any advocates or workers involved in urbanism, transportation/city planning, and climate activism.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 30, 2019)

SanAntonioClyde said:


> Now we enter phase 2 to push for funding to provide track capacity on UP line for increased passenger service.


I realize you're only doing what you feel is absolutely necessary to get the job done, and I fully support your tireless efforts in that regard, but has Union Pacific ever provided any meaningful evidence that a daily Sunset will create a substantial and materially relevant impact to their other operations? Going from tri-weekly to daily might actually be something of a normalizing move that ends up with a net neutral impact.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 30, 2019)

Honestly I'm with the Eagle being the Daily CHI-LAX Train with a Daily Stub SAS-NOL-SAS Train as has been the Amtrak plan for several years!( Getting UP to agree has been the Fly in the Ointment!)


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## SanAntonioClyde (Oct 1, 2019)

You have to respect UP's right to protect their investment. the cost to bring on additional passenger at the expense of line capacity should be examined and negotiated.


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## toddinde (Oct 2, 2019)

I don’t respect UP at all in this regard. These railroads were built with land grants, and Amtrak was created to relieve the railroads of the obligation they had to provide that service creating a windfall for railroads like the UP and SP. UP has a legal obligation to allow Amtrak access. That’s the law. I am all in favor of funding the upgrades they need, but if they stonewall, I would be all about eminent domain.


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## jis (Oct 2, 2019)

toddinde said:


> I don’t respect UP at all in this regard. These railroads were built with land grants, and Amtrak was created to relieve the railroads of the obligation they had to provide that service creating a windfall for railroads like the UP and SP. UP has a legal obligation to allow Amtrak access. That’s the law. I am all in favor of funding the upgrades they need, but if they stonewall, I would be all about eminent domain.


Where is the money going to come from for exercising Eminent Domain? You cannot just seize property without paying for it you know? Maybe in China. But not in the US or several other countries that have Eminent Domain laws based on British common law or equivalent. Can't even do it in India for example.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 2, 2019)

jis said:


> Where is the money going to come from for exercising Eminent Domain? You cannot just seize property without paying for it you know? Maybe in China. But not in the US or several other countries that have Eminent Domain laws based on British common law or equivalent. Can't even do it in India for example.


The power of the state vastly exceeds the will to use it. A determined government could revoke UP's corporate charter, break it up into a dozen smaller railroads, and nationalize ownership of the Sunset Route if it so chose. If UP still wants to charge absurd money to make a single one time schedule change, then perhaps our rail regulators should establish absurd fines for refusing to negotiate in good faith and pay the bridge troll with his own money.


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## jis (Oct 2, 2019)

Wake me up when you come across such a determined government in the US. The primary problem in the US is the anti-rail bias in the power structure of the US. Every other problem will start getting resolved if that one factor can be changed by even a smidgen.


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## toddinde (Oct 2, 2019)

Read Fred Frailey’s column in this month’s Trains Magazine. Railroads haul about 17% of the freight in America, roughly the same as waterways. The railroads are cutting physical infrastructure and carrying ever diminishing amounts of freight. We have the right to demand that our railways serve the interests of society and the public. This is particularly the case with climate change and the need to move people and goods more efficiently. When the railroads didn’t serve the public interest in the past, they were regulated. The same can happen again. The political winds of change are blowing.


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## toddinde (Oct 2, 2019)

jis said:


> Where is the money going to come from for exercising Eminent Domain? You cannot just seize property without paying for it you know? Maybe in China. But not in the US or several other countries that have Eminent Domain laws based on British common law or equivalent. Can't even do it in India for example.


I’m a lawyer, and yes, I know all about eminent domain. It does not need to be a full taking, but a partial taking. But again, the law allows Amtrak access, and running a daily train is not a big ask.


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## toddinde (Oct 2, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I realize you're only doing what you feel is absolutely necessary to get the job done, and I fully support your tireless efforts in that regard, but has Union Pacific ever provided any meaningful evidence that a daily Sunset will create a substantial and materially relevant impact to their other operations? Going from tri-weekly to daily might actually be something of a normalizing move that ends up with a net neutral impact.


Just logic would dictate that a daily train has almost no additional impact over a Tri weekly train. As you said, it normalizes it’s presence.


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## toddinde (Oct 2, 2019)

Comtac


neroden said:


> Think you can get Maricopa, Phoenix, or... I know it's a long shot... New Orleans?[/QUOTE
> 
> Contact AllAboard Arizona. The fall meeting is in Tucson in December. Let’s see if we can get them to make this a priority.


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## neroden (Oct 5, 2019)

jis said:


> Wake me up when you come across such a determined government in the US. The primary problem in the US is the anti-rail bias in the power structure of the US. Every other problem will start getting resolved if that one factor can be changed by even a smidgen.


This is true; rail freight gets damaged by the anti rail political bias as well as passenger rail. 

The harbinger of the future, IMNSHO, is Massachusetts, which will probably own all the track in the state soon, with a policy of promoting train use over trucks and cars. But it will be a while before other states follow, and Arizona and Texas are very far away.


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## TinCan782 (Oct 5, 2019)

Another move for a daily Sunset Limited. 
"Three people with the Rail Passengers Association, an organization that represents rail passengers, presented their case to increase routes to county commissioners Tuesday."
Still a ways to go.
https://www.kens5.com/article/news/...utes/273-9a9f3851-0bef-4cde-bf4e-6f9e20a5e371


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## SanAntonioClyde (Oct 6, 2019)

toddinde said:


> Comtac


all Aboard has already received support from Mayor of Tucson and several groups in Yuma. still nothing with Benson. From my experience large cities such as Phoenix take a very long time to move thru the chain tomcat support.


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## dogbert617 (Oct 11, 2019)

Good luck, to those fighting for the Sunset to finally run daily! While you're at it, you should try to get letters of support from Lafayette, LA's city council and mayor written, as well. Don't forget to also try to get similar letters of support written from those in Lake Charles, Houma and Schreiver(IIRC that's the town outside of Houma where Amtrak actually stops in, correct me if wrong), and Alpine, TX as well!

Also, don't forget to see if you can get letters of support written, from those in Palm Springs as well. I know that place has the similar challenge of Yuma, where it runs overnight.


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## SanAntonioClyde (Oct 11, 2019)

dogbert617 said:


> Good luck, to those fighting for the Sunset to finally run daily! While you're at it, you should try to get letters of support from Lafayette, LA's city council and mayor written, as well. Don't forget to also try to get similar letters of support written from those in Lake Charles, Houma and Schreiver(IIRC that's the town outside of Houma where Amtrak actually stops in, correct me if wrong), and Alpine, TX as well!
> 
> Also, don't forget to see if you can get letters of support written, from those in Palm Springs as well. I know that place has the similar challenge of Yuma, where it runs overnight.




I've covered the 900 miles in Texas from Beaumont to El Paso with great results. My fellow RPA members in Palm Springs are not having much luck to date, so if you have any connections please let me know. Have emailed Louisiana RPA organization (via their website) asking for help but have never received reply.


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## SanAntonioClyde (Oct 12, 2019)

FrensicPic said:


> Another move for a daily Sunset Limited.
> "Three people with the Rail Passengers Association, an organization that represents rail passengers, presented their case to increase routes to county commissioners Tuesday."
> Still a ways to go.
> https://www.kens5.com/article/news/...utes/273-9a9f3851-0bef-4cde-bf4e-6f9e20a5e371



that is our team


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## TheTuck (Nov 26, 2019)

FrensicPic said:


> Another move for a daily Sunset Limited.
> "Three people with the Rail Passengers Association, an organization that represents rail passengers, presented their case to increase routes to county commissioners Tuesday."
> Still a ways to go.
> https://www.kens5.com/article/news/...utes/273-9a9f3851-0bef-4cde-bf4e-6f9e20a5e371



The article implies that Amtrak is all for going daily, but I am not so sure. Anderson and his flyboys have clearly indicated their disdain for long distance trains as non profitable routes. Being as the Sunset Limited is one of the worst performers, why would they all of a sudden invest in making it a daily train? Their allocated costing methodology would undoubtedly put this through the ringer before the very first daily run, which will only strengthen the company's argument to stay triweekly (or worse).

It's not the UP we should be concerned; they can be negotiated with. The current Amtrak regime is not willing to do any of this by themselves, nor spend the money needed for the upgrades. In fact, I predict Amtrak will try to break up this route into smaller segments, remove amenities such as dining cars, sleepers etc... It will take a very strong political push from the representatives along the route to simply maintain the current service levels, much less invest in expansion.


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## jis (Nov 26, 2019)

There seems to be an unspoken assumption that Anderson will remain the boss from now till eternity, which may not be as true as some think it might be. His days may be more numbered than anyone imagines.


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## Anthony V (Nov 26, 2019)

TheTuck said:


> The article implies that Amtrak is all for going daily, but I am not so sure. Anderson and his flyboys have clearly indicated their disdain for long distance trains as non profitable routes. Being as the Sunset Limited is one of the worst performers, why would they all of a sudden invest in making it a daily train? Their allocated costing methodology would undoubtedly put this through the ringer before the very first daily run, which will only strengthen the company's argument to stay triweekly (or worse).
> 
> It's not the UP we should be concerned; they can be negotiated with. The current Amtrak regime is not willing to do any of this by themselves, nor spend the money needed for the upgrades. In fact, I predict Amtrak will try to break up this route into smaller segments, remove amenities such as dining cars, sleepers etc... It will take a very strong political push from the representatives along the route to simply maintain the current service levels, much less invest in expansion.


The reason UP asked for so much money back in 2010 when Amtrak wanted to make the Sunset a daily train is because they were planning to double track much of the route themselves to improve capacity for their freight trains. When Amtrak asked UP for a daily Sunset, UP saw that as an opportunity to not have to pay for the upgrades themselves. In other words, the $750 million price tag of a daily Sunset was really UP attempting to exploit Amtrak's desires for improved service. When Amtrak's plans stopped due to the price tag, UP was forced to pay for the capacity upgrades for freight service on the route themselves.


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## TheTuck (Nov 26, 2019)

jis said:


> There seems to be an unspoken assumption that Anderson will remain the boss from now till eternity, which may not be as true as some think it might be. His days may be more numbered than anyone imagines.


Maybe so, but he has installed a lot of airplane parts into the passenger railroad. Unless Wick comes out of retirement again, I don't see much reverting back to pre-Anderson levels.


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## neroden (Nov 30, 2019)

jis said:


> There seems to be an unspoken assumption that Anderson will remain the boss from now till eternity, which may not be as true as some think it might be. His days may be more numbered than anyone imagines.



Given his disdainful attitude towards *his bosses* in Congress? He may not last long!

The sad thing is that I don't even think it's entirely Anderson's fault. Much of the stuff he's been proposing is really, really dumb and if he actually understood Amtrak's finances he would never have proposed much of it. There's someone under him feeding him bad information and making him look bad, and the evidence points to Stephen Gardner. 

The question in my mind is whether *Gardner* can be pushed out; Gardner clearly has a bad attitude and doesn't understand Amtrak customers or finances, but he's mostly managing to keep his head down and direct most of the flak at Anderson. However, a couple of Gardner interviews, supiciously timed to defend the indefensible, gave Gardner's agenda away. A very bad outcome, IMO, would be if Gardner got promoted.


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## neroden (Nov 30, 2019)

SanAntonioClyde said:


> I've covered the 900 miles in Texas from Beaumont to El Paso with great results. My fellow RPA members in Palm Springs are not having much luck to date, so if you have any connections please let me know. Have emailed Louisiana RPA organization (via their website) asking for help but have never received reply.



Frankly, I suspect that RPA doesn't have many members in Louisiana. The only one I can think of of the top of my head... isn't in Louisiana any more. 

Louisiana ARP looks in bad shape -- although they had a meeting scheduled for October 12, they haven't posted on their website since then and they haven't put anything on their blog since 2017. You might have to look a little further afield to assemble advocacy within Louisiana; I think the localities *would* be interested.

The only local-transit advocacy organization I can find in Louisiana is Ride New Orleans; they'd probably decide this was outside their area of interest, but they might be convinced to support a daily train for the value of daily service to Houston.

All Aboard Arizona advocates are clearly happy to help, they've been advocating for daily service forever, and still seem to be going; I'm glad they're making good progress.


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## Palmetto (Nov 30, 2019)

TxARP isn't anything to write home about either. I don't even know if it still exists.


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## Willbridge (Nov 30, 2019)

Anthony V said:


> The reason UP asked for so much money back in 2010 when Amtrak wanted to make the Sunset a daily train is because they were planning to double track much of the route themselves to improve capacity for their freight trains. When Amtrak asked UP for a daily Sunset, UP saw that as an opportunity to not have to pay for the upgrades themselves. In other words, the $750 million price tag of a daily Sunset was really UP attempting to exploit Amtrak's desires for improved service. When Amtrak's plans stopped due to the price tag, UP was forced to pay for the capacity upgrades for freight service on the route themselves.


Similar to what happened with the simultaneous _Pioneer _study. Amtrak made no attempt to negotiate over what obviously was a starting point. My favorite expense was for fencing the main line at the Shoshone station due to trespass casualties from the wrong side of the tracks saloons, solving a problem that has existed since the 19th century.


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## Cal (Jan 23, 2021)

SanAntonioClyde said:


> Progress is being made in gaining support from various Texas cities served by the Sunset. Since September 2018 we have gathered supporting resolutions from Jefferson Cty Judge (Beaumont), Mayor of Houston, San Antonio City council, Del Rio Mayor and county judge, Del Rio
> 
> chamber of Commerce, Terrell Cty Judge (Sanderson) and Alpine city council. Mayor of Tucson has also supplied a supporting letter. Now in process of backfilling to see addition support can be gathered.


It's 2021 now, any updates?


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## SanAntonioClyde (Jan 25, 2021)

Pandemic has put us on hold. Rail Passengers Association has just renewed a license agreement which will allow us to run models that will help us show various cities the economic benefits they will have by having daily
Sunset service. At this time I am not sure when results will be available and when they can be presented. The purpose of doing this is to have the communities show increased interest and help us push for improved service.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 26, 2021)

SanAntonioClyde said:


> Pandemic has put us on hold. Rail Passengers Association has just renewed a license agreement which will allow us to run models that will help us show various cities the economic benefits they will have by having daily
> Sunset service. At this time I am not sure when results will be available and when they can be presented. The purpose of doing this is to have the communities show increased interest and help us push for improved service.


Is there something we can do to help? I'd love to get the city back on track but they seem resigned and intractable when it comes to supporting passenger rail. I do not think it's an accident that even the HSR project has ignored SAS.


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## SanAntonioClyde (May 30, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Is there something we can do to help? I'd love to get the city back on track but they seem resigned and intractable when it comes to supporting passenger rail. I do not think it's an accident that even the HSR project has ignored SAS.


Just got results of study. Members of RPA ad hoc Daily Sunset Campaign are now writing to our senators and local leaders pointing out tremendous financial benefits daily service brings to each state. Lots to digest n these results.

Believe we need to have high speed rail first developed for Dallas Houston as this is most viable option, then we can push for Austin and San Antonio service. Perhaps Gov. Perry"s loop around Austin will some day be useful for rail.


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## Cal (May 30, 2021)

SanAntonioClyde said:


> Just got results of study. Members of RPA ad hoc Daily Sunset Campaign are now writing to our senators and local leaders pointing out tremendous financial benefits daily service brings to each state. Lots to digest n these results.


How many times has this been done in the past? Is this the furthest anyone's ever gotten to making the Sunset daily?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jun 3, 2021)

Ground work is ground work. While it might not be seen as much. It is one of those things you need to do. Better to have and be able to show local support, than not to have that support. You just don’t want a local government to gummy up your project, for the lack of a meeting.


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## Willbridge (Jun 3, 2021)

If a couple of local governments would participate you might consider holding your own public hearings. We did that for the _Pioneer _in 1976 and had good turnouts at each prospective stop from Hood River to Ontario. We had a panel (myself for ODOT) that took testimony and asked questions of the witnesses. OreARP (now AORTA) paid most of the expenses (we rented two vans so the team could travel together). Travel expenses went to individuals or their agencies.

In a similar vein, a 1984 conference at Jasper was what helped get that resort and Edmonton back on track for the _Super Continental. _In that case we emphasized the business development aspect. In the first photo, VIA Rail veep Harold Murray addresses the group (imagine, they had a "western" office in Winnipeg). Transport 2000 Canada, Alberta and BC were represented. In the second photo, a Jasper tour operator is telling how loss of the connection to international travel at Vancouver, BC destroyed Japanese tourism links and in the third photo Edmonton Mayor Laurence Decore (in the turtleneck sweater) listens intently while his overstressed chief of staff looks exhausted on the Liberal mayor's left. As in the Oregon example there was no legal requirement to hold these sessions but they got the attention of people in Our Nations' Capitols.


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## railiner (Jun 3, 2021)

Refreshing to see that some people on this forum have not just "talked the talk", but have actually "walked the walk" in rail travel advocacy....


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jun 3, 2021)

“Walk the walk.”

There a lot of way to support your ideals.
Cash, sitting on a meeting, or been the force of nature that scheduled and hold meetings.

I am not much myself, but will say thanks for those who do take the time to host those meetings.


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## George Harris (Jun 4, 2021)

Politically do you think there is any reasonable possibility of getting any support out of this current administration for service in the parts of the country that resoundingly does not support them? You can figure any significant Amtrak money is going down that black hole called the Northeast Corridor, where if you are lucky you get 10 cents value for every dollar spent.


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## PaTrainFan (Jun 4, 2021)

George Harris said:


> Politically do you think there is any reasonable possibility of getting any support out of this current administration for service in the parts of the country that resoundingly does not support them? You can figure any significant Amtrak money is going down that black hole called the Northeast Corridor, where if you are lucky you get 10 cents value for every dollar spent.



Generally speaking, if Biden supports it, the Republicans won't give himwhat he wants. That is very obvious in the current "negotiations" on the infrastructure bill.


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## John Bredin (Jun 4, 2021)

George Harris said:


> Politically do you think there is any reasonable possibility of getting any support out of this current administration for service in the parts of the country that resoundingly does not support them?


Is there any evidence for this other than projection (that's what the Republicans would do)?!  Biden typically rode the NEC before he became President because that's where he lived and worked, but I've seen no indication he wants Amtrak to improve only in the NEC. Transportation Secretary Buttigieg is from Indiana. And Amtrak's corridor improvement plan does little for long-distance trains but it does propose a lot of new corridor service in red and purple states. A Presidential Administration or Amtrak seeking only to spend money in blue states wouldn't be proposing an Atlanta hub connecting to Nashville TN, Birmingham AL, and Montgomery AL, or eight trains a day between Chicago and Indianapolis, or new corridors in Texas extending into Oklahoma and up to Kansas.



> You can figure any significant Amtrak money is going down that black hole called the Northeast Corridor, where if you are lucky you get 10 cents value for every dollar spent.



Yes, a good chunk of the money from Congress, however much that is in the end, will be for the NEC. Tens of millions of taxpaying Americans live and work there, and owning the right-of-way ain't cheap. But like home ownership, ROW ownership may involve shelling out more money than being a tenant but gives you control that a tenant will never have. 

However, it's not true that "any significant Amtrak money" is strictly for the NEC. Picking a random link from a Google search, Amtrak's 2021 budget request (from early 2020 before Biden was elected) was roughly 2:1 National Network-to-NEC. The 2022 transportation budget from the Biden Administration (here) (go to numbered page 59/actual page 62) seems to be roughly half NEC & half National Network.

The problem isn't the NEC, it's how much hasn't been spent on better service outside the NEC. Once you start playing the zero-sum "if it's not Scottish my service, it's crap!" game, you lose because you're playing on the opponents' field. While you're arguing that the NEC is a waste, the highways-only people are arguing that public spending on the NEC, other corridor trains, long-distance trains, local transit, or anything other than cars and trucks is a waste. Only they're arguing louder and with more money than you, and they're nodding along as you condemn the wasteful NEC and the NEC-only faction condemns the wasteful LD trains.


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