# Chicago to Dubuque by 2014? The Black Hawk return update?



## dlagrua (Aug 12, 2013)

Things have been in the works for a restoration of the Black Hawk service since 2010 when the state of Illinois refunded the train. I have been reading about the progress of the return of this once active 182 mile route and there is some info here:

http://members.trainorders.com/dr04/BlackHawk/

Preliminary schedule here;

http://members.trainorders.com/dr04/BlackHawk/schedule.htm

This route (originally an Illinois Central train called the Land O Corn) ) has not run from CUS since 1983. It originally ran from Chicago to Waterloo, IA ( 247 miles) but was shortened when Amtrak assumed the train route (but shot=rtened to Dubuque). At that time of its discontinuance, I believe that Amtrak may have been running three coaches, and a dining car. The trip took 6.6 hours so there were no sleepers.

Apparently new demand for Iowa service surfaced in the past few years and the state of Illinois has committed towards its funding again. Last I read the CN tracks are being upgraded and service may start by 2014. Nippon Sharyo is building the cars for this route and I cannot find info on what the consist will look like or what the cars will be like.. Will there be a business class, or first class?

This is positive news for the Amtrak system and a new route for us to look forward to riding. Just goes to show what can happen when a state wants rail service again and doesn't mind chipping in. Since my info is sketchy; please feel free everyone, to fill in the blanks.


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## Railroad Bill (Aug 12, 2013)

Looks like an interesting new Amtrak ride. Hope they can change the times from the old schedule. Those people traveling from Dubuque to Chicago at 5am will need to be as dedicated as we who ride from Cleveland in the early hours of the morning.


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## rrdude (Aug 12, 2013)

Black Hawk was the only route I ever bid on for a job, and won, for all of one week! It was a God-Awful early report time in Dubuque, especially if the Westbound was late. (rare)

Seems as though with the length of trip thou, they would schedule at least two trips per day, but hey, something is better than what we have now, just a shame though, as frequency (not speed) is typically the single largest factor in establishing the train as an alternate, viable transportation alternative.


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## railiner (Aug 12, 2013)

I don't believe Amtrak ever ran a diner on its Blackhawk....IIRC, they used the former C&NW intercity gallery cars mostly, occasionally an Amfleet set.....


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## afigg (Aug 12, 2013)

dlagrua said:


> Apparently new demand for Iowa service surfaced in the past few years and the state of Illinois has committed towards its funding again. Last I read the CN tracks are being upgraded and service may start by 2014. Nippon Sharyo is building the cars for this route and I cannot find info on what the consist will look like or what the cars will be like.. Will there be a business class, or first class?
> This is positive news for the Amtrak system and a new route for us to look forward to riding. Just goes to show what can happen when a state wants rail service again and doesn't mind chipping in. Since my info is sketchy; please feel free everyone, to fill in the blanks.


The last I recall reading, the start date both of the new Illinois corridor routes has slipped into at least later 2015. Keep in mind, there are 2 new funded corridor routes in IL:

1. Chicago-Dubuque (funded mostly with state money)

2. Chicago-Moline/Quad Cities. The HSIPR grant for CHI-Iowa City with IL's portion stripped out and work started while Iowa's Governor stalls on the extension to Iowa City.

Both of these corridor services will be getting the new corridor bi-levels from the Nippon-Sharyo contract. But those cars won't start shipping in quantity until 2016. Unless Amtrak can scrounge up enough coach cars to start the new services, IL may have to postpone starting service on the new routes. Or perhaps start with once a day service, then go to the planed twice a day service when the equipment is available?

The corridor bi-levels from Nippon-Sharyo will be similar to the California cars with 2 passenger doors on either side. Yes, there will be business class as the 130 car order includes 21 café/business class cars.


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## MattW (Aug 12, 2013)

Could Illinois do what California did and lease (or buy? I can't remember) some more single-level commuter cars for the interim? Or probably the better question, are there even any more commuter cars available to be leased or sold?


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## Paul CHI (Aug 12, 2013)

I don't understand where IL will get the money to do this. The state is worse than flat broke financially.


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## rrdude (Aug 12, 2013)

railiner said:


> I don't believe Amtrak ever ran a diner on its Blackhawk....IIRC, they used the former C&NW intercity gallery cars mostly, occasionally an Amfleet set.....


I worked it up to 81, and never ran on anything other than AmCans and AmCafe


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## afigg (Aug 12, 2013)

MattW said:


> Could Illinois do what California did and lease (or buy? I can't remember) some more single-level commuter cars for the interim? Or probably the better question, are there even any more commuter cars available to be leased or sold?


What Caltrans is doing is an expensive stopgap solution. They paid $75K each for the Comet I-Bs, bur are paying Amtrak around $1.4 million (IIRC) each to completely overhaul and refurb the cars. There is almost certainly commuter coach cars available, but those cars will have commuter type seating and may not be the best way to launch a restored service for 4+ hour trips.


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## dlagrua (Aug 12, 2013)

I believe that the current Illinois Central (CN) trackage still extends across the entire state of IA to Omaha, NB. The original IC route ran to Waterloo which is about 90 miles farther West than Dubuque. When Amtrak stepped in they shortened the route by about 90 miles. Its likely that the IA department of transportation sees no market West of Dubuque. I was reading that the state is currently building a new transportation center for train and bus service. This seems like a terrible waste of money as the old Dubuque train station is still there and in great condition.


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## Anderson (Aug 12, 2013)

dlagrua said:


> I believe that the current Illinois Central (CN) trackage still extends across the entire state of IA to Omaha, NB. The original IC route ran to Waterloo which is about 90 miles farther West than Dubuque. When Amtrak stepped in they shortened the route by about 90 miles. Its likely that the IA department of transportation sees no market West of Dubuque. I was reading that the state is currently building a new transportation center for train and bus service. This seems like a terrible waste of money as the old Dubuque train station is still there and in great condition.


IA looked at this in the context of the Omaha train study. Basically, Waterloo _might_ work if there weren't some plans for a Des Moines train. As it stands, an extension probably wouldn't make _that _much sense...Waterloo isn't very big, Cedar Rapids is served by Iowa City, and Fort Dodge has only 25,000 people in it...there's nothing else out that way of note save perhaps Sioux City...and Sioux City-Chicago does not strike me as a major city pair at this point.

Moreover, once the train runs into IA, IA's DOT gets stuck in the mix...and we all know how fun that sort of complication can be.


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## jebr (Aug 12, 2013)

Anderson said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > I believe that the current Illinois Central (CN) trackage still extends across the entire state of IA to Omaha, NB. The original IC route ran to Waterloo which is about 90 miles farther West than Dubuque. When Amtrak stepped in they shortened the route by about 90 miles. Its likely that the IA department of transportation sees no market West of Dubuque. I was reading that the state is currently building a new transportation center for train and bus service. This seems like a terrible waste of money as the old Dubuque train station is still there and in great condition.
> ...


Though, to be fair, the subsidized airline service from Sioux City was given to American Airlines in part because a Chicago connection was more desirable than an MSP connection with Delta. This was despite the fact that the Delta contract was around $230,000 less expensive per year.

http://siouxcityjournal.com/news/local/a1/american-challenges-delta-for-sioux-gateway-service/article_44b9084b-75e7-5ecc-b03b-356c542fa2d5.html

That won't pay for a train all the way out there, but it's an interesting aside...there is some demand for Sioux City-Chicago service.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 13, 2013)

Railroad Bill said:


> Looks like an interesting new Amtrak ride. Hope they can change the times from the old schedule. Those people traveling from Dubuque to Chicago at 5am will need to be as dedicated as we who ride from Cleveland in the early hours of the morning.


That is a terrible schedule. Amtrak really need to rework a lot of the middle-of-night stops, even more when the station donsen't have mauch passengers or population.

I would always prefer a well-timed Greyhound into CLD than an Amtrak train. Pretty obvious why that is.


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## railiner (Aug 13, 2013)

Anderson said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > I believe that the current Illinois Central (CN) trackage still extends across the entire state of IA to Omaha, NB. The original IC route ran to Waterloo which is about 90 miles farther West than Dubuque. When Amtrak stepped in they shortened the route by about 90 miles. Its likely that the IA department of transportation sees no market West of Dubuque. I was reading that the state is currently building a new transportation center for train and bus service. This seems like a terrible waste of money as the old Dubuque train station is still there and in great condition.
> ...


Besides the 'Land-O'-Corn' train Chicago to Waterloo, the IC also ran the overnite 'Hawkeye' from Chicago all the way to Sioux City, with part of it splitting off to Omaha at one time.


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## railiner (Aug 13, 2013)

rrdude said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe Amtrak ever ran a diner on its Blackhawk....IIRC, they used the former C&NW intercity gallery cars mostly, occasionally an Amfleet set.....
> ...


They never ran those gallery cars on that train? Perhaps my fuzzy memory forgot, and I remember them on the Illini? Pretty sure they were used on some IC route, but not sure....


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## Anderson (Aug 13, 2013)

(1) Sioux City has one of the worst airport codes in the country: SUX.
(2) Snickering aside, Sioux City enplanements were only 27,168 for CY12. This was off about 3% from CY11; though there was a hard fall between CY09 and CY10, the numbers have been flat-ish since then in the mid-20k range. I'm willing to argue that there's more "municipal" demand than "market" demand for the service, and that it's more demand for "something going somewhere" than anything specific. Put another way, the city desperately wants an airplane of some sort, they don't care who it is or where it goes.
(3) Looking at the other cities on the route, I think you'd probably find ridership west of Waterloo somewhere 50k/yr. One part of it is the low population of the region. The other is likely long running times (8 hours at a bare minimum, probably more like 9-10). It might still not be the worst use of an operating subsidy, though...

With all that said, if you could proverbially drop a train in from Sioux Falls to Chicago and get a decent running speed, it probably wouldn't have the worst performance ever. That trophy will likely always go to the Lake Country Limited. However, it will be a mediocre-performing train at best, and you'd probably want to cut all but about two cars off the train past Waterloo (or three cars past Dubuque) so you didn't "waste" the cars. The biggest issue, however, is that you'd probably have to sink a lot of money into track improvements to make the train worthwhile...if you can do the run in 8-10 hours that's one thing. If it takes something like 14 hours, you have a problem...and if it costs $1bn to get travel times down to something sane, you have another problem.


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## jebr (Aug 13, 2013)

Anderson said:


> (1) Sioux City has one of the worst airport codes in the country: SUX.


Ha, yeah. I have some souvenirs with the SUX moniker on them. They've done their best to make lemonade out of the proverbial lemons.



Anderson said:


> With all that said, if you could proverbially drop a train in from Sioux Falls to Chicago and get a decent running speed, it probably wouldn't have the worst performance ever. That trophy will likely always go to the Lake Country Limited. However, it will be a mediocre-performing train at best, and you'd probably want to cut all but about two cars off the train past Waterloo (or three cars past Dubuque) so you didn't "waste" the cars. The biggest issue, however, is that you'd probably have to sink a lot of money into track improvements to make the train worthwhile...if you can do the run in 8-10 hours that's one thing. If it takes something like 14 hours, you have a problem...and if it costs $1bn to get travel times down to something sane, you have another problem.


True. If you're doing a Sioux Falls - Chicago train, you'd probably be better sacrificing a bit of time and just doing Sioux Falls - Sioux City - Omaha, and then connect with a train running parallel to I-80. It may not be as direct as cutting over to Waterloo, but you'd hit *much* better intermediate markets, and frankly I'd rather see the money spent doing that than running a train further north.

(Of course, you're looking at a bit odd BNSF routing out of Sioux Falls and into Omaha or you're looking at negotiating with BNSF, UP, and D & I, though between Sioux Falls and Sioux City both routes only have small intermediate markets, and frankly if I'm dipping into this much fantasy I'm seeing a Minneapolis to Sioux Falls train, and then I'd take the full-BNSF routing for a hope of a train stop in Sioux Center.)


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## PerRock (Aug 13, 2013)

I personally would love to see train service ran all the way to Waterloo, as I have family there, and taking the train sure beat a 10hr drive. However being familiar with the area, I don't know where Amtrak could put a station in Waterloo. IANR might allow them to put something up in their yard, but I doubt it. That yard is really the closest the line comes to downtown. Now if they skipped Waterloo, and ended at Cedar Falls (Waterloo's neighbor, they're practically one city) there are two spots a station could be built almost in downtown (the old station is in downtown, but is now on an industrial spur to the power plant & is a bank). But then all this is years & years away...

I wouldn't mind Duboque, my family could pick me up fairly easily from there.

peter


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 13, 2013)

railiner said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > dlagrua said:
> ...


The Hawkeye from Chicacgo to Sioux City lasted until A-Day while the Land of Corn was discontinued several years prior. The Omaha section of the Hawkeye was discontinued around WWII,


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## Nathanael (Aug 13, 2013)

Paul CHI said:


> I don't understand where IL will get the money to do this. The state is worse than flat broke financially.


It's only money. A lot of people don't understand money at the "macro" level. It's different from the way money works for the "little people".

If you're as big as a bank or a state government, you can borrow arbitrary amounts of money at very low interest rates and you never really have to pay it back. You can effectively print money. If you're the federal government, you can actually print money, and that's actually a good idea under most circumstances (the exception being when there is a real resource constraint, such as a shortage of oil, or no unemployed workers to hire; neither of which is true now).

Remember the old saying: if you owe the bank a million dollars, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank a *billion* dollars, you own the bank.

Now, if Illinois were short of steel or concrete or workers, then there would be a real, serious issue with extending a train line. Short on "money"? Means nothing, just print some.


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## Nathanael (Aug 13, 2013)

dlagrua said:


> I was reading that the state is currently building a new transportation center for train and bus service. This seems like a terrible waste of money as the old Dubuque train station is still there and in great condition.


Illinois doesn't want to mess around with running trains across the bridge into Iowa. Especially after Iowa's state legislature made such a mess and prevented construction of the fully-funded route to Iowa City. So it's all going to stop on the Illinois side of the border.
I have to say, this should drive business and residents onto the Illinois side of the border in both Dubuque and the Quad Cities.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 13, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > I was reading that the state is currently building a new transportation center for train and bus service. This seems like a terrible waste of money as the old Dubuque train station is still there and in great condition.
> ...


Well, while the Quad Cities train will terminate on the Illinois side of the Mississippi, the Blackhawk will terminate in Dubuque, Iowa, just like the Illinois supported trains terminate in St. Louis.


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## MikeM (Aug 13, 2013)

There is, or was, a train depot for East Dubuque located on the Illinois side of the river just before the tunnel and bridge to cross over. The station appears to have been built at or near the same time as the Burlington IA station, in the same style. However, it's just sat boarded up and unused for some time now, and probably is destined for a landfill if it doesn't collapse first. So that won't be the final destination unless someone is really feeling spiteful in Illinois.


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## jis (Aug 13, 2013)

afigg said:


> What Caltrans is doing is an expensive stopgap solution. They paid *$75K* each for the Comet I-Bs, bur are paying Amtrak around $1.4 million (IIRC) each to completely overhaul and refurb the cars. There is almost certainly commuter coach cars available, but those cars will have commuter type seating and may not be the best way to launch a restored service for 4+ hour trips.


You missed a zero. It was $750K. The $1.4M is net of purchase price and refurb AFAIU.
There are those two Talgos going abegging in Wisconsin, no?


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 13, 2013)

The East Dubuque Station was a stop on the former Burlington's Chicago to Twin Cities Route. The Blackhawk used and will use the former Illinois Central route. There may have been an IC station in East Dubuque at one time, but it was well before Amtrak.


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## afigg (Aug 13, 2013)

jis said:


> You missed a zero. It was $750K. The $1.4M is net of purchase price and refurb AFAIU.
> There are those two Talgos going abegging in Wisconsin, no?


Those costs make more sense. As for the Wisconsin Talgos, they are going to come up in these railroad forums every time there is a question about getting rolling stock for a service. Despite the rather significant issue of arranging for a service facility. Perhaps someone should make a railfan t-shirt that says "Free the Wisconsin Talgos!" 

On a somewhat more serious idea, if Illinois Democratic leaders want to poke WI Gov. Walker in the ribs a little, IL DOT could team with WA to either buy or lease the 2 Talgo trainsets from Talgo once the legal disputes between Talgo and WI are resolved. IL would lease the Talgo trainsets for the Black Hawk service and run them until mid 2017 when most of the new bi-levels should have been delivered. Arrange for Amtrak to provide space for servicing the Talgos in Chicago. Then the Talgos are transferred to WA in 2017 to expand Cascades service upon the completion of all the HSIPR project. WA gets the 2 sets under a lease with Talgo with an option to buy arrangement. See, problem solved!


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## Nathanael (Aug 13, 2013)

MikefromCrete said:


> Well, while the Quad Cities train will terminate on the Illinois side of the Mississippi, the Blackhawk will terminate in Dubuque, Iowa, just like the Illinois supported trains terminate in St. Louis.


That's nice.

...Ah, I see, the City of Dubuque is funding it. I'm a little worried about who's going to fund the rail renovations on the Iowa side of the river, though. I suppose, then, that the Black Hawk will actually travel due south on its way from Savannah, IL to Dubuque as it crosses the Mississippi? Funny route, that


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## Nathanael (Aug 13, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Well, while the Quad Cities train will terminate on the Illinois side of the Mississippi, the Blackhawk will terminate in Dubuque, Iowa, just like the Illinois supported trains terminate in St. Louis.
> ...


...although it does make it awfully easy to continue from Dubuque to the Twin Cities.


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## Nathanael (Aug 13, 2013)

No, OK, I just rechecked this -- the planned route *is* to go along the BNSF from Galena to East Dubuque (as I would have expected), and then to cross the bridge into Dubuque.

None of the renderings for the "Dubuque Intermodal Transportation Center" appear to include trains coming across the bridge. Lovely. I hope someone gets their act together before construction.

And I really wonder whether Illinois is actually going to pay for the bridge crossing improvements. I wouldn't be surprised to see an East Dubuque station.


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## railiner (Aug 13, 2013)

Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 14, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> No, OK, I just rechecked this -- the planned route *is* to go along the BNSF from Galena to East Dubuque (as I would have expected), and then to cross the bridge into Dubuque.
> None of the renderings for the "Dubuque Intermodal Transportation Center" appear to include trains coming across the bridge. Lovely. I hope someone gets their act together before construction.
> 
> And I really wonder whether Illinois is actually going to pay for the bridge crossing improvements. I wouldn't be surprised to see an East Dubuque station.


The BNSF route is the ex-Burlington I assume? So it's not all ex-IC, which would be CN.


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## OldZephyr (Aug 14, 2013)

jphjaxfl said:


> The East Dubuque Station was a stop on the former Burlington's Chicago to Twin Cities Route. The Blackhawk used and will use the former Illinois Central route. There may have been an IC station in East Dubuque at one time, but it was well before Amtrak.


The old Black Hawk run by Amtrak did stop at East Dubuque, IL. Note that the IC and the CB&Q share tracks through most of East Dubuque. In fact, I believe it's the CB&Q that had trackage rights on the IC from the junction of the IC line coming west from Galena (Portage?) to where the IC tracks diverge to go into the tunnel that leads to the bridge across the Mississippi.

Here's a view that purports to show where the East Dubuque stations were: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=213041250395756644804.0004ad2398331093e317b


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## PaulM (Aug 14, 2013)

railiner said:


> Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......


Until the flood of '93 there were stations in both Quincy and West Quincy (just a rail yard and collection gas stations, tobacco shops, pawn shops, and used car dealers, no population to speak of). The station was washed away and never replaced. Both trains rest in West Quincy where the station used to be.

At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy


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## railiner (Aug 15, 2013)

PaulM said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......
> ...


Thanks for clearing that one up.....I suppose that the appropriately named, joint Burlington-Rock Island, St. Paul/Burlington/St. Lous "Zephyr Rocket" also stopped there, then?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 15, 2013)

railiner said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
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Zephyr Rocket? Never heard about that one. Which route did it run?


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## railiner (Aug 17, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > PaulM said:
> ...


It was a joint operation between the CB&Q (Burlington Route), and the CRI&P (Rock Island)....It ran from St. Louis to Burlington on the 'Q', and then from Burlington to St. Paul on the 'Rock'. It used equipment from both roads in the pool arrangement, and used the Q's Zephyr, and the Rock's Rocket names designating 'streamliner' .....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 17, 2013)

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


Thanks for the info. Found this great picture of it with an E6A in Saint Louis: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2347176.

Looks like the Burlington could have run it on their own tracks going St. Louis-Galesburg-La Crosse-Minneapolis. The route they did use looks to be a bit faster. I think parts of it are currently duplicated with a combination of BTW and JL buses, but the full route is not run through. Great oppurtunity for some service restoration.


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## railiner (Aug 17, 2013)

There were many possible alternate train routes in those days....as for bus service, after the train was discontinued at the end of the sixties, Continental Trailways and Jefferson Lines did in fact run a similar joint pool thru bus.....Continental Trailways (former American Buslines, previously former Burlington Transportation Company dba Burlington Trailways) ran it from St. Lous to Cedar Rapids, and Jefferson Lines from Cedar Rapids to Minneapolis.

As for railroads running joint thru services even thought they could take a roundabout route on their own lines, they often pooled to provide a faster service, or one which would hit more populous enroute cities....

The Burlington Lines Fort Worth and Denver subsidiary also teamed up with the Rock Island on the joint route linking Dallas and Houston in competition with others.....

So in those years roads could be bitter competitors on one route, and friendly partners for mutual benefit on others....


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## PaulM (Aug 18, 2013)

railiner said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy
> ...


The Zephyr Rocket timetable shows it stopping at Quincy. That would have been the station in West Quincy since it became the CB&Q Quincy station in 1953 when it replaced the one on the Quincy waterfront built in 1898, which replaced the one in which Lincoln, or was it Douglas, arrived for their debate. The freight portion of the old station is still in existence but would require a backup move coming from Chicago since the mainline crosses the river north of town and there is only a spur from the Missouri direction into the Quincy waterfront.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 18, 2013)

railiner said:


> There were many possible alternate train routes in those days....as for bus service, after the train was discontinued at the end of the sixties, Continental Trailways and Jefferson Lines did in fact run a similar joint pool thru bus.....Continental Trailways (former American Buslines, previously former Burlington Transportation Company dba Burlington Trailways) ran it from St. Lous to Cedar Rapids, and Jefferson Lines from Cedar Rapids to Minneapolis.
> As for railroads running joint thru services even thought they could take a roundabout route on their own lines, they often pooled to provide a faster service, or one which would hit more populous enroute cities....
> 
> The Burlington Lines Fort Worth and Denver subsidiary also teamed up with the Rock Island on the joint route linking Dallas and Houston in competition with others.....
> ...


That still happens a lot in the transport industry. Notably with the Amtrak-Greyhound relationship.



PaulM said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > PaulM said:
> ...


Nice! Thanks for that. A timetable explains a lot. The Zephyr Rocket ran quite fast overnight, it must have had some Sleepers. This would be good for today's business travellers. It was really the Express, but seems to have made all stops on the Burlington segment.


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## railiner (Aug 18, 2013)

Amtrak and Greyhound don't really pool together....Greyhound can run anywhere it wants, and when it is part of an Amtrak thruway type connection, it is done for the benefit of Amtrak travellers. Greyhound doesn't sell connection travel on Amtrak....it is a one-sided operation.

The reason that timetable shows the train making all stops on the Burlington portion of its schedule, is because that is a detailed Rock Island timetable, showing all stations on the route, whether the particular Zephyr Rocket stops there, or not. The small section denoted for the CB&Q is just a condensed portion of the actual CB&Q timetable, only showing those stations that the joint Zephyr Rocket stops at on the Burlington.....

This type of listing was common for the convenience of passengers, so they would not have to carry several timetables with them, only the primary one for the road they most often travelled....

Sometimes they would also have a simple card timetable dedicated to the stops for the one train or two on it....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 18, 2013)

railiner said:


> Amtrak and Greyhound don't really pool together....Greyhound can run anywhere it wants, and when it is part of an Amtrak thruway type connection, it is done for the benefit of Amtrak travellers. Greyhound doesn't sell connection travel on Amtrak....it is a one-sided operation.
> The reason that timetable shows the train making all stops on the Burlington portion of its schedule, is because that is a detailed Rock Island timetable, showing all stations on the route, whether the particular Zephyr Rocket stops there, or not. The small section denoted for the CB&Q is just a condensed portion of the actual CB&Q timetable, only showing those stations that the joint Zephyr Rocket stops at on the Burlington.....
> 
> This type of listing was common for the convenience of passengers, so they would not have to carry several timetables with them, only the primary one for the road they most often travelled....
> ...


If I understand correctly, the timetable shows all the Zephyr Rocket stops in the Burlington section, but omits the local stops of the "Local" train on the same route in the Burlington section.


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## Notelvis (Aug 18, 2013)

Amtrak's 'Blackhawk' used the former Illinois Central passenger station in Dubuque but that station was torn down shortly after the Blackhawk was discontinued. The site is now covered by the northbound lanes of the widened (in the 1980's) US 151 headed towards Madison, WI.

There is the former Burlington Railroad Depot in Dubuque which is in great shape but it is now across the street from the tracks and has been encompassed by the National Mississippi River Museum.

I was in Dubuque last month for a reunion commemorating the 50th Anniversary of the Colts Drum & Bugle Corps and drove by the site which has been identified for a new multimodal station. There are no signs of any imminent construction and ironically, the organization I was in town to celebrate with was storing a pair of unused buses on the site along with another couple of smaller vehicles.


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## railiner (Aug 18, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak and Greyhound don't really pool together....Greyhound can run anywhere it wants, and when it is part of an Amtrak thruway type connection, it is done for the benefit of Amtrak travellers. Greyhound doesn't sell connection travel on Amtrak....it is a one-sided operation.
> ...


Now you've got the idea....to see all the stops, you would have to get a complete Burlington timetable. There you might see the reverse....a condensed portion of the Rock Island timetable between Burlington and St. Paul showing only those stations that the Zephyr Rocket or any other joint train would make along it.....

Some of those "system timetables" of years back were almost like a mini-Official Guide of the Railways, thick with many timetables---condensed thru train tables, detailed main line tables, branch lines, and even connecting railways, especially if joint pool trains operated over them. Some even showed airline, steamship, and bus schedules...a real treasure trove of timetables....


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## oldtimer (Aug 19, 2013)

Notelvis said:


> Amtrak's 'Blackhawk' used the former Illinois Central passenger station in Dubuque but that station was torn down shortly after the Blackhawk was discontinued. The site is now covered by the northbound lanes of the widened (in the 1980's) US 151 headed towards Madison, WI.
> There is the former Burlington Railroad Depot in Dubuque which is in great shape but it is now across the street from the tracks and has been encompassed by the National Mississippi River Museum.


I can verify that the former IC station was used by the Blackhawk.

I can also tell you that the Blackhawk used RDC's as its equipment in a 3 car lashup.


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## rrdude (Aug 19, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> Notelvis said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak's 'Blackhawk' used the former Illinois Central passenger station in Dubuque but that station was torn down shortly after the Blackhawk was discontinued. The site is now covered by the northbound lanes of the widened (in the 1980's) US 151 headed towards Madison, WI.
> ...


Agree at one time, or from time-to-time, the BH used RDC's, but when I worked it in 80-81, it was Amfleet. Nice thing about that job was it was super EZ, not a lot of pax, leisurly schedule, overnight in Dubuque.


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## benroethig (Aug 25, 2013)

dlagrua said:


> I believe that the current Illinois Central (CN) trackage still extends across the entire state of IA to Omaha, NB. The original IC route ran to Waterloo which is about 90 miles farther West than Dubuque. When Amtrak stepped in they shortened the route by about 90 miles. Its likely that the IA department of transportation sees no market West of Dubuque. I was reading that the state is currently building a new transportation center for train and bus service. This seems like a terrible waste of money as the old Dubuque train station is still there and in great condition.


The Depot is owned by the Museum and connected to it. To be honest, the Intermodal Facility is more about having a parking ramp in the millwork district than it is the actual train. The train ironically might not even stop here because of issues the city is having with CP over the trackage.


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## jason (Jan 5, 2014)

anybody have any new updates on this?


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## fairviewroad (Jan 10, 2014)

jason said:


> anybody have any new updates on this?


This article/radio story posted today doesn't really have much by way of new information, only that "talks continue" between IDOT and CN.

However, it does indicate that desire for this service is still in the forefront among local communities.

Wait Continues, But There's Still Hope For Amtrak Route


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## Nathanael (Jan 10, 2014)

Most recent estimates I've heard have slipped to "late" 2015. However, bascially the Black Hawk restoration is delayed until there's an agreement between IDOT and CN. At that point, if the money's available, it could probably be built within a year -- platforms, sidings, signalling -- I can't imagine that there would be any major bridges or tunnels or ROW acquisition or wetland filling or anything else *slow* required.

The Moline service is also scheduled to start in December 2015. It appears to be further along in the process, but requires substantially more track and signal improvements. Though IDOT is really very opaque, it *seems* as if all the contracts with railroads have been signed and the land acquisition is well underway, so it really ought to be under construction in 2014 once the construction season starts.

Opening the new routes in late 2015 has one major advantage over trying to open earlier: some of the new bilevels should have been delivered by then, meaning that there won't be any scrounging around for cars or futzing about with platform heights: the platforms can be built for the new bilevels and operated with them immediately.


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## CHamilton (May 16, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> The Moline service is also scheduled to start in December 2015. It appears to be further along in the process, but requires substantially more track and signal improvements.


Track work could delay Moline-Chicago passenger rail service



> The Illinois Department of Transportation plans to start rehabilitation work this summer on a segment of railroad track to be used for passenger rail service between Moline and Chicago.
> Jae Miller, IDOT spokeswoman, said upgrades to the BNSF tracks between Chicago and Wyanet, will start this summer. She said IDOT recently determined more work is than previously planned will be needed to prepare the rail line from Wyanet to Moline will begin. She said it isn't known yet when the work will begin.
> 
> Ms. Miller said the tracks are owned by the Iowa Interstate Railroad. The additional work could delay the launch of passenger rail service to 2016.
> ...


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## neroden (May 16, 2014)

This seems lazy on the part of IDOT. So there's more work required than expected; seriously, get started on it already. Saying that they're not going to announce a *schedule* until the end of fall seems lazy. Figure out what the long-lead-time items are and start on them ASAP.


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## neroden (May 16, 2014)

Oh. On the actual topic (Dubuque service) it appears to be suspended indefinitely due to inability to get agreement from CN. Instead, agreement has been reached with UP and Rockford service will be started as soon as they can.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-04-10/news/chi-amtrak-rail-service-between-chicago-and-rockford-to-begin-in-2015-20140410_1_chicago-to-rockford-service-rock-river-new-route


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## MikefromCrete (May 16, 2014)

neroden said:


> This seems lazy on the part of IDOT. So there's more work required than expected; seriously, get started on it already. Saying that they're not going to announce a *schedule* until the end of fall seems lazy. Figure out what the long-lead-time items are and start on them ASAP.


Probably not so much lazy as "we'll need another year to get enough money" since the Illinois legislature isn't great handler of money, always spending way more than they should. Right now they're busy figuring out how to meet pension obligations, since in the past they've usually taken money designated for pensions and spent it on something else.


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## neroden (May 16, 2014)

MikefromCrete said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > This seems lazy on the part of IDOT. So there's more work required than expected; seriously, get started on it already. Saying that they're not going to announce a *schedule* until the end of fall seems lazy. Figure out what the long-lead-time items are and start on them ASAP.
> ...


Ah. NYS does similar things, passing all its budgets late and using shenaningans like borrowing from one fund to spend on another fund. But Governor Quinn really wants to get this project done and you'd think he'd shake the money up. Most of it is federal money anyway.

At least do the land acquisition and get the wetland permits and do the soil testing to find where there may have been previous toxic spills -- that stuff takes forever.


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## Jason (Jun 15, 2014)

looks like theres been a calling out of the Railroad by Senator Durbin...lets get this moving already

http://www.pjstar.com/article/20140606/NEWS/140609326/10924/NEWS


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