# AGR Redemption Guidelines



## AlanB

I think that the title pretty much says it all, and I suspect that a few here will be disappointed that they can no longer play guessing games with agents. But regardless, AGR Insider has announced over at FT that the guidelines will be available come tomorrow. You can view the topic here.


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## Ryan

Very interesting!

I look forward to digesting what they have to say.


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## yarrow

it does sound like fun


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## Bob Dylan

:hi: Thanks Alan! Sounds like AGR is Finally getting some Professional Management and Leadership!


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## AlanB

jimhudson said:


> :hi: Thanks Alan! Sounds like AGR is Finally getting some Professional Management and Leadership!


Actually unless there has been some recent, unpublished changes by Amtrak, Mike Blakey is still in charge of AGR and his right hand Vicki Radke is also still there too.


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## Bob Dylan

AlanB said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> :hi: Thanks Alan! Sounds like AGR is Finally getting some Professional Management and Leadership!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually unless there has been some recent, unpublished changes by Amtrak, Mike Blakey is still in charge of AGR and his right hand Vicki Radke is also still there too.
Click to expand...

Does this mean that the Resident AGR Guru will be out of a Job?? :giggle:


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## Notelvis

Actually I look forward to seeing these. I like having a better idea of what I can or cannot do before calling to book.

Thanks for calling our attention to it.


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## AlanB

Notelvis said:


> Actually I look forward to seeing these. I like having a better idea of what I can or cannot do before calling to book.


Well it also goes beyond that; now one has something to point at when an agent tells you that you can't do what you want and you know that it is perfectly legal to do it.


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## amamba

Let's place bets on what will be allowed! What about that tricky overnight in NOLA? Crap I didn't book my trip to Houston yet...


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## Aaron

AlanB said:


> Notelvis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I look forward to seeing these. I like having a better idea of what I can or cannot do before calling to book.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it also goes beyond that; now one has something to point at when an agent tells you that you can't do what you want and you know that it is perfectly legal to do it.
Click to expand...

This. Just posting the guidelines isn't going to change anything with regards to what the phone reps do, but will definitely give callers an easier time convincing the rep to actually do what they should. Over time, I suppose a teachable representative will eventually modify their behavior after being corrected by customers enough timqe, so I guess it's possible that eventually you'll be able to trust that the agent is correct more often than you do now.

Now, in the be-careful-what-you-wish-for department: Who else is concerned that the guidelines will support a much more restrictive view on things than what is currently allowed with some agents? For example, what if the actual guidelines specifically say only pre-programmed itineraries in ARROW are bookable, no overnight connections, you get charged for every zone you touch whether or not you get off the train, new reservation needed every time you change trains, etc. Basically, what if every bogus rep assertion ever made is actually true, and it was the more generous reps that were not knowing the rules? That's a much worse position to be in, because instead of being in a position where _you _get to quote the book to get the rep to do something _you _want, the rep gets to quote the book to tell you why you _can't _do that.


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## crescent2

Eek! Yes, that's a possibility, but hopefully the guidelines will be reasonable ones. Along with others who've posted, I too will be glad to have a better idea of what to expect before phoning AGR. Thanks for the heads-up, Alan!


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## Ispolkom

AlanB said:


> I suspect that a few here will be disappointed that they can no longer play guessing games with agents.


That would be me.



Aaron said:


> Who else is concerned that the guidelines will support a much more restrictive view on things than what is currently allowed with some agents?


That would be me.

But here's my thought. Just because the rules are published doesn't mean that agents will act according to them. I'm sure that AGR wants the agents to follow the rules, but it will be interesting to see what they actually do.

So maybe this is a big change, maybe not.

ETA: Much depends on how carefully the rules are written. It could be that we will be left in just as ambiguous a position as we are now with regard to things like stopovers, zone crossings, etc., etc.


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## SubwayNut

I beileve this is it and posted:

What we all care about:



> *Redemption Travel by Zone*
> 
> 
> *A travel itinerary for a single redemption must follow a published route between the initial origin and final destination. A published route is an itinerary automatically generated by Amtrak's reservation system.*
> *A single zone entry or zone exit comprises usage of one zone in the redemption, irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary.*
> *Where a desired itinerary does not exist as a single published route, the trip must be constructed as a series of published routes using multiple redemptions.*
> *Circle trips are not permitted using a single redemption. A circle trip is a travel itinerary comprised of a series of segments that exit, and later re-enter, the same zone.*


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## Anderson

The only thing I dislike about the rules is that Arrow can be dumb or slightly restrictive in many cases (and sometimes it ignores a slightly more logical option while putting in some odd ones). But it's nice to have all of this down on paper and be in a position to escalate when someone is trying to deny you an otherwise valid itinerary.


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## calwatch

Interesting, because there are some routes that actually meet all of the criteria but cannot be ticketed solely because the connection is not in ARROW. For instance, Wolf Point-Albuquerque or Wolf Point-El Paso. CBS-KCY is certainly out.

The sleeping car exemption will help for people from the Southland who want to take the Starlight and connect with the Zephyr with an overnight stay in Emeryville/Sacramento, though, instead of sending them on the owl San Joaquin bus like I did last year. For CS-EB trips, with the "Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route" rule you could choose to reroute yourself via Seattle with the overnight stay, since the Portland sleeper often sells out. This would also eliminate the chance of having to take the bus from K-Falls as has been happening the past couple days.

Overall, for someone knowledgeable with the Amtrak system, it becomes a wash. The "no bedroom service" rule will likely be an object of people's schemes. I never tried anything outside of the ARROW box anyway, but many people both on this forum and outside did.


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## Anderson

Well, a good example of what can be frustrating is this:
RVR/south-NYP-CHI and RVR/south-WAS-CHI are both legal and Arrow-bookable, but in a lot of cases only the RVR-WAS-CHI option has showed up when continuing on. 98% of the time, this is a non-issue...but there _are_ times when the Cap sells out and the LSL has space (I've seen it happen, but demand patterns get wonky at Christmas). Particularly if 66/67 gets its sleeper back, that becomes a viable (if longer) option eastbound as well.


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## Ryan

There's more that what was quoted above:

An Amtrak station located on a zone boundary may be considered part of either bordering zone, if it is the initial origin or final destination for the redemption.

Where a published route requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.

Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)

Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Portland, OR to Kingman, AZ on trains 11 and 4)

Sounds reasonable.

No circle trips isn't a surprise.

Being able to sub routes with all sleepers is real nice.

Overnight stopovers are nice.

Not having to take the next train out is nice.

Best of all, having it written down and publicly available is awesome.

Edit: this also means no such thing as a 4 or 5 zone trip.


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## amamba

My big concern is this part:


*A travel itinerary for a single redemption must follow a published route between the initial origin and final destination. A published route is an itinerary automatically generated by Amtrak's reservation system.*
*For example, I had mentioned that I am trying to plan a trip PVD - Houston. When I pop those city pairs into amtrak.com, it only spits out the LSL to the TE with the very long bus ride. Now when I do NYP - Houston, I get the trip I want, the Cresecent to the SL.*

*Now, does that mean that I need to do two redemptions, PVD - NYP for 4,000 points and then NYP - Houston? Or since it involves the long bus route, am I allowed an "alternate routing" like this: *Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Portland, OR to Kingman, AZ on trains 11 and 4)


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## Ispolkom

I don't think that you can book one redemption PVD-HOS, since it's not a published route. The exception they give (PDX-KGM) doesn't apply because that *is* a published route.

I'd book the trip NYP-HOS, since that is a published route, then call back in a few weeks, explain that your plans have changed, and add on the PVD-NYP leg. That is just a counsel of prudence, not a claim that I understand AGR rules.

I've asked AGR Insider on FlyerTalk if it's now possible to book the following one-zone award:

LAX-SAC (Coast Starlight), then SAC-DEN (California Zephyr). It's not a published route, but it is an alternate sleeper route.


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## Tracktwentynine

Posting the entire rules just in case AGR decides to take them off its website in the future.



> Redemption Guidelines	Redemption Types*Redemption Travel by Segment*
> 
> *Acela Express:* Each Acela Express travel segment requires a separate Acela Express redemption, and may not be reserved using any other redemption type.
> 
> *Special Routes:* A separate redemption is required for each Special Route travel segment, with the exception of 3000-6999 series Thruway service directly connecting to and/or from a Special Route train. Additional points will be required for other connecting services.
> 
> 
> Special Routes include the following: Blue Water; Capitol Corridor; Carl Sandburg; Cascades; Downeaster; Heartland Flyer; Hiawatha Service; Hoosier State; Illini; Illinois Zephyr; Lincoln Service; Missouri River Runner; Pacific Surfliner; Pere Marquette; Piedmont; Saluki; San Joaquin; Wolverine Service.
> At the member's option, Special Route travel may be included with an award for redemption travel by zone. Example: Portland, ME – Boston, MA – New Haven, CT using the Downeaster and Northeast Regional routes is permitted at the Northeast Zone point value.
> *Redemption Travel by Zone*
> 
> 
> A travel itinerary for a single redemption must follow a published route between the initial origin and final destination. A published route is an itinerary automatically generated by Amtrak's reservation system.
> A single zone entry or zone exit comprises usage of one zone in the redemption, irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary.
> Where a desired itinerary does not exist as a single published route, the trip must be constructed as a series of published routes using multiple redemptions.
> Circle trips are not permitted using a single redemption. A circle trip is a travel itinerary comprised of a series of segments that exit, and later re-enter, the same zone.
> An Amtrak station located on a zone boundary may be considered part of either bordering zone, if it is the initial origin or final destination for the redemption.
> Where a published route requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.
> Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Portland, OR to Kingman, AZ on trains 11 and 4)
> 
> Redemption Eligibility
> Redemption travel may not be reserved unless a sufficient point balance is available in the member's Amtrak Guest Rewards account at the time of booking.
> All passengers ages 2 and up are subject to the same redemption requirements. Infants (under age 2) may travel without a ticket, but if a separate seat is desired for an infant, points must be redeemed as for an additional passenger.
> Redemption travel is not permitted on scheduled Amtrak service in the 7000-7999 number range. Any such travel must be purchased at the prevailing fare. This includes the portion of the Maple Leaf route operated by VIA Rail Canada between Toronto and the Canadian border.
> Redemption travel is permitted on scheduled Amtrak service in the 8000-8999 number range when directly connecting to or from an Amtrak train.	Exception: 8000-series Thruway service between the following cities (including intermediate stops) is eligible for redemption travel without a train connection: Seattle, WA – Vancouver, BC; Los Angeles, CA – Las Vegas, NV; Boston, MA – Portland, ME.
> 
> [*]Redemption travel is not permitted for any segment with a scheduled departure on a blackout date. Rule Buster redemptions are exempt from blackout date restrictions.
> [*]Weekday redemption travel is not permitted on any Acela Express segment with a scheduled departure between 12:01 a.m. and 8:59 a.m., or between 2:00 p.m. and 5:59 p.m., inclusive, Monday through Friday. Rule Buster redemptions are not exempt from this restriction.
> [*]Redemption travel that begins at an unstaffed station and includes non-eTicket travel (e.g. some Thruway buses) must be booked at least nine days in advance of departure to allow for tickets to be mailed. Other arrangements, such as priority mailing or pick-up at an alternate station, may be available by contacting the Amtrak Guest Rewards Service Center.
> [*]Bicycle, golf bag, and/or Auto Train priority vehicle reservation charges are not included with travel redemptions, and must be paid separately where applicable.
> Other Redemption Guidelines
> When the same itinerary contains different classes of service across multiple travel segments, the redemption type with the highest point requirement applies.
> Sleeping car redemptions are valid for business class accommodations, if available, on any connecting train in the itinerary (except Acela Express) that does not offer sleeping car service.
> Sleeping car redemptions must follow the recommended capacity guidelines as published on Amtrak.com.
> The redemption rate for a roomette will apply to an Accessible Bedroom reserved for passengers with disabilities. This discount is only available to passengers who require one or more accessible features of this accommodation; see Amtrak.com for details.
> The redemption rate for a bedroom will apply to an Accessible Bedroom reserved for passengers without disabilities. Such a reservation may be made under the following conditions:	the request is made 14 or fewer days in advance of departure; and,
> all other sleeping car accommodation types are sold out at the time of the request.
> 
> [*]Any segment in a redemption travel reservation may be modified or cancelled at any time prior to travel. Additional points may be required for travel modifications. Points are not refundable for any portion of a redemption travel itinerary after travel has commenced.
> [*]A "no-show" for any segment will result in forfeiture of points and travel for that segment, as well as all subsequent segments in the itinerary. A "no-show" is defined as a passenger's failure to travel on a segment from its origin without first canceling that portion of the itinerary.
> [*]Points may be redeemed for travel in the name of passengers other than the member, but tickets and travel documents are non-transferable once issued.
> [*]Redemption travel may not be bartered, brokered, purchased, or sold, except under programs fully authorized and/or sponsored by Amtrak. A redemption ticket has no cash value.
> [*]Amtrak's Duplicate and Impossible Bookings policy applies to all redemption travel.
> [*]Use of the Amtrak "Sleeper Waitlist" is not permitted for redemption travel reservations.
> [*]All Amtrak Guest Rewards redemption transactions are subject to review, adjustment, or cancellation by Amtrak, in accordance with our Program Terms and Conditions.
> [*]All rules and regulations pertaining to Amtrak Guest Rewards redemption travel are subject to interpretation or change without notice by Amtrak. They are published for the convenience of members only, and do not constitute contractual obligations of Amtrak. Please refer to Amtrak's Terms of Transportation for additional information.


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## ATXEagle

I am grateful for more clarity in the redemption rules. I also think the rules are pretty fair.

However, if we are dependent upon published routes that are automatically generated by the Arrow reservation system, I wish that Amtrak would take the time to correct the many programming inconsistencies in Arrow.

For example, I travel to and from my parent's home in Florida to my home in Austin, Texas by train approximately twice a year. I know the ins and outs of the various legal connections available. Arrow, however, does not know them all. For example, if I plug in WTH to CHI into Arrow I am given a choice to connect to the Cardinal in Washington (3 days a week). I am also given an unattractive bus connection between trains 98 and 51:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8968458041/

If I search from WTH to AUS, however, I am only offered the bus connection, even though there is no logical reason not to connect from 98 to 51 directly at WAS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8969661182/

When I'm paying for a trip I work around these inconsistencies by using the Multi-City tool. I've also been able to explain to some AGR agents what I want to do and have them book the routing I want. Now I fear that I'll be out of luck and they'll insist on the automatic Arrow routing, no matter how illogical.

_I couldn't figure out how to post screen shots in this forum, so I linked to my Flickr page._


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## yarrow

very interesting. have these always been the rules but they were not rigorously followed?


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## crescent2

TP1974: I agree that Arrow should be updated to show all logical routes.

Re the redemption guidelines, after a quick read, they seem reasonable. I'm just glad to have a better idea of what to expect before phoning AGR.

For those much more in the know about routing, would this now be possible on one (2 zone) redemption if I did the shortest overnight layovers:

Denver to Davis on CZ

Davis to Los Angeles on CS? (This is not offered on Arrow--it offers the SJ instead--but would the exception for sleeping accommodations allow it? I'd want a sleeper all the way. The overnight layover is less than 23.5 hrs. The way I read it, I think it would--??)

Edit: This is similar, but in the opposite direction of travel, to the example Ispolkam gave in his post above.

Could I even add:

LA to Atlanta on the SL (on a day it runs) and the Crescent?

If so, this is good! 

I think two of the big positives (that supposedly were not allowed before) in the guidelines are the allowable overnight layovers of less than 23.5 hours, and the exceptions for getting a sleeper on routes that Arrow doesn't give. Am I missing something here?

Thanks~


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## jimhudson

For those who read the AGR Thread on Flyer talk there are lots of Members (including me!) asking these Questions and AGR Insider does a Good Job of Responding and giving Answers! Check it out, still better Join in! It's Free and a Good Resource!

(But not as Good as AU!!!  )


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## AlanB

yarrow said:


> very interesting. have these always been the rules but they were not rigorously followed?


Well there have been some changes to the original rules over the years, but yes, by and large these have always been the rules. The big problem has been in getting all the agents on the same page.

Hopefully this will help, and when it doesn't, at least those who read the rules will know that they should appeal to a higher authority when an agent gets it wrong.


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## Ryan

jimhudson said:


> For those who read the AGR Thread on Flyer talk there are lots of Members (including me!) asking these Questions and AGR Insider does a Good Job of Responding and giving Answers! Check it out, still better Join in! It's Free and a Good Resource! (But not as Good as AU!!!  )


I'm still always amazed that AGR chooses to host their social media interaction at a site devoted to air travel and not one of the many excellent Amtrak-related forums out there (like this one!).


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## Ryan

Edit: This post by AGR Insider is GREAT:



> All of the train connections in our reservation system are entered manually by our national train operations center, after considering operational feasibility of publishing and guaranteeing the connection, on top of the simple "legality" under tariff rules. However, you are right that many otherwise workable connections are simply missing, or are available from one city but not from another.
> The solution we have proposed to our agents is that if they feel a connection really should be available, but isn't, they can submit it to a supervisor for review and escalation if a customer asks for it. AGR can then ask train operations about adding it to the connection table; however, this is not an immediate process and research can take a few days. On the bright side, if a connection is added, it will be available to all other customers who might want it later, whether paying with money or with points.
> 
> For consistency's sake across all agents, the default will be to only book automatically generated itineraries. There is no other lowest common denominator that will ensure a consistent member experience, given the way our reservation system operates today.


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## PRR 60

Ryan said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those who read the AGR Thread on Flyer talk there are lots of Members (including me!) asking these Questions and AGR Insider does a Good Job of Responding and giving Answers! Check it out, still better Join in! It's Free and a Good Resource! (But not as Good as AU!!!  )
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still always amazed that AGR chooses to host their social media interaction at a site devoted to air travel and not one of the many excellent Amtrak-related forums out there (like this one!).
Click to expand...

Despite its name, Flyertalk is devoted to discussion of all types of frequent traveler programs, and in addition to airline program forums, FT has active forums devoted to hotel, car rental, credit card programs, and, of course, Amtrak. Given that FT has official participation from various airline, hotel and other travel-related firms, I guess Amtrak felt that adding an official presence at FT was following industry president and would be beneficial to both the AGR participants and Amtrak. While AGR Insider occasionally answers questions about Amtrak operations, the focus of his participation is AGR.

To my knowledge, Amtrak has never officially participated at what may be described as "fan" sites, and for better or worse I think that AU falls into that category.


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## Ispolkom

crescent2 said:


> I think two of the big positives (that supposedly were not allowed before) in the guidelines are the allowable overnight layovers of less than 23.5 hours, and the exceptions for getting a sleeper on routes that Arrow doesn't give. Am I missing something here?


Given *AGR Insider'*'s clarification that all award travel has to be via "published routes," I think that neither of these positives exist. Overnights are only allowed when they are part of a route that's already programmed, like New York - New Orleans - Houston, or Portland - Los Angeles - Kingman.

These new rules are something of a let down, I think, because the new dispensation is not just that you can only book routes that are available on the Web site, but also that not all of those routes can be booked at any price. What the new rules call "circle routes" are simply not bookable as one AGR award, including the Houston - LA - Portland - St. Paul trip I took in January.


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## Aaron

This one's unclear to me:

"A single zone entry or zone exit comprises usage of one zone in the redemption, irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary."

Here's an example: The only routing Arrow spits out for travel from Alpine TX to Williston ND is taking the Sunset Limited west to LAX, Coast Starlight north to Portland, and Empire Builder east. That trip starts in the central zone, travels through the west zone, and then ends back in the central zone.

So, is this trip billed at 1, 2, or 3 zones? The way I would parse that part of the guidelines would tell me that it's three zones. The zone exit from the central and the zone entry into the west takes it to two zones, and then reentering the central zone would add a third. "Irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary" reads to me like "Yes, you were already in that zone once on this trip and were billed for it already. Too bad. More points needed."

What say you all? Is there an alternate interpretation here that I'm not seeing?


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## jersey42

Aaron said:


> "A single zone entry or zone exit comprises usage of one zone in the redemption, irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary."
> 
> Here's an example: The only routing Arrow spits out for travel from Alpine TX to Williston ND is taking the Sunset Limited west to LAX, Coast Starlight north to Portland, and Empire Builder east. That trip starts in the central zone, travels through the west zone, and then ends back in the central zone.
> 
> So, is this trip billed at 1, 2, or 3 zones? The way I would parse that part of the guidelines would tell me that it's three zones. The zone exit from the central and the zone entry into the west takes it to two zones, and then reentering the central zone would add a third. "Irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary" reads to me like "Yes, you were already in that zone once on this trip and were billed for it already. Too bad. More points needed."
> 
> What say you all? Is there an alternate interpretation here that I'm not seeing?


Perhaps it falls under the "circle trip" rule, and they will not let you book it as a single redemption. If you take the wording literally, it pretty much says this is an illegal trip, although I wonder if that is the intention.



> •Circle trips are not permitted using a single redemption. A circle trip is a travel itinerary comprised of a series of segments that exit, and later re-enter, the same zone.


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## Aaron

jersey42 said:


> Perhaps it falls under the "circle trip" rule, and they will not let you book it as a single redemption. If you take the wording literally, it pretty much says this is an illegal trip, although I wonder if that is the intention.


Yeah, it's hard to believe that would be the intention, since this is a published route and is in fact the only way to get from point A to point B using Arrow. It's not like this is one of those borderline abusive loophole trips.


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## Aaron

Here's one thing I'd love to see improved:

I'm planning a trip from Tucson to Vancouver BC. The only published routing is the CS to the Thruway bus (since the CS gets in too late to take the Cascades). I'd rather take the train that leaves the next morning. Here's the relevant sections of the rules:


Where a published route requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.
Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)
Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Portland, OR to Kingman, AZ on trains 11 and 4)
The published route requires a connection and I'd rather take a later one, but that first rule doesn't help me because the connection I want to take is the next morning (so, not on the same date). The second rule about the overnight connection doesn't help, because the overnight connection from the CS to the Cascades is not published in Arrow.

That third rule is something I really like, because it lets you find an _unpublished_ route and use it as long as it's direct. Amtrak seems to understand that if you're redeeming a large chunk of points for sleeper service, you're going to want that on your whole route. I wish they would also show the same understanding that if you're redeeming points to ride the _train_ from point A to point B, many if not most of these most frequent and loyal travelers would actually prefer to be on a train, not a bus. So, I would love to see a similar rule that says something like, "Where service on a train is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with train travel on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed." That would allow me to get off in SEA and stay overnight at my own expense, taking the Cascades in the morning.


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## VentureForth

Aaron said:


> That third rule is something I really like, because it lets you find an _unpublished_ route and use it as long as it's direct. Amtrak seems to understand that if you're redeeming a large chunk of points for sleeper service, you're going to want that on your whole route. I wish they would also show the same understanding that if you're redeeming points to ride the _train_ from point A to point B, many if not most of these most frequent and loyal travelers would actually prefer to be on a train, not a bus. So, I would love to see a similar rule that says something like, "Where service on a train is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with train travel on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed." That would allow me to get off in SEA and stay overnight at my own expense, taking the Cascades in the morning.


That, to me, means that I can book a sleeper from Savannah to Boston via Cleveland, taking the Silver Meteor, Capitol Limited and then the Lake Shore Limited because there is no sleeper service between NYP and BOS.  
I wonder if they would make me go all the way to NYP, take the LSL to Schenectady, spend the night (less than 23 hours) and then the LSL back to BOS? Departure and arrival would be the same time, but the cost [ie: lost revenue] would be about $300 less, vs spending about $100 overnight in SDY... Either way, I would lose a day of travel, but I wouldn't have to be relegated to NEC Business class! LOL.


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## Ispolkom

Aaron said:


> jersey42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it falls under the "circle trip" rule, and they will not let you book it as a single redemption. If you take the wording literally, it pretty much says this is an illegal trip, although I wonder if that is the intention.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's hard to believe that would be the intention, since this is a published route and is in fact the only way to get from point A to point B using Arrow. It's not like this is one of those borderline abusive loophole trips.
Click to expand...

But it's the clear meaning of the sentence. I'm going to assume AGR meant what they wrote. Otherwise we can imagine intent to be anything, and we've replaced unwritten rules with rules that don't mean what they clearly say.


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## CHamilton

Aaron said:


> I'm planning a trip from Tucson to Vancouver BC. The only published routing is the CS to the Thruway bus (since the CS gets in too late to take the Cascades). I'd rather take the train that leaves the next morning.


I agree with you that taking the train would be nicer, but even if you can't get AGR to give it to you, it wouldn't cost very much to pay cash.


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## Aaron

CHamilton said:


> Aaron said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm planning a trip from Tucson to Vancouver BC. The only published routing is the CS to the Thruway bus (since the CS gets in too late to take the Cascades). I'd rather take the train that leaves the next morning.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that taking the train would be nicer, but even if you can't get AGR to give it to you, it wouldn't cost very much to pay cash.
Click to expand...

Well, it's a family of four, and the same situation would apply both ways, and if I was looking at BC (which is what I'd be getting if AGR would give it to me) I'd be looking at a total of $408 at the low bucket. Without BC, I'm still looking at $180. Whether or not that's very much is all relative of course, but it's enough that I'd definitely consider slumming it on the bus.


----------



## Aaron

Ispolkom said:


> Aaron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jersey42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it falls under the "circle trip" rule, and they will not let you book it as a single redemption. If you take the wording literally, it pretty much says this is an illegal trip, although I wonder if that is the intention.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's hard to believe that would be the intention, since this is a published route and is in fact the only way to get from point A to point B using Arrow. It's not like this is one of those borderline abusive loophole trips.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But it's the clear meaning of the sentence. I'm going to assume AGR meant what they wrote. Otherwise we can imagine intent to be anything, and we've replaced unwritten rules with rules that don't mean what they clearly say.
Click to expand...

You're right, it's hard to interpret that circle trip rule any other way, even though it means trips like Alpine -> Williston are unbookable except as two separate redemptions, whereas El Paso ->Fargo, a longer trip on the exact same trains, is a single two-zone redemption. At least in the hypothetical Alpine to WIlliston scenario you could book a single one-zone trip from El Paso to Wolf Point and just bookend it with a couple of cheap coach tickets. Something like Houston->Fargo only has one published routing (SL->CS->EB), and that's unbookable also under the circle trip rule. Coach tickets to the zone boundaries are not as cheap there (Looks like low bucket of $97 from HOS->ELP and $72 from WPT->FAR).


----------



## Aaron

VentureForth said:


> That, to me, means that I can book a sleeper from Savannah to Boston via Cleveland, taking the Silver Meteor, Capitol Limited and then the Lake Shore Limited because there is no sleeper service between NYP and BOS.


Well, I guess that's why they say "direct", as in "where an alternate *direct *routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments". Your guess is as good as mine as to what an agent is going to consider a "direct" routing when trying to pull off a booking under that rule.


----------



## fairviewroad

I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,

Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that

a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.

Abamba's point about adding PVD-NYP to an otherwise bookable itinerary is a much more relevant concern, though.


----------



## jimhudson

fairviewroad said:


> I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that
> 
> a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.
> 
> Abamba's point about adding PVD-NYP to an otherwise bookable itinerary is a much more relevant concern, though.


They are ALL Equally Important to Amtraks Best Customers, just because you live in Flyover country is nNo reason to Just Cater to the Big Markets! Its called Amtrak Guest Rewards, not NEC Rewards! :help:


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> Edit: this also means no such thing as a 4 or 5 zone trip.


It's true that there was never a four or five zone *award*. However, there are numerous published trips that have to be broken into *multiple* awards totaling four or five zones worth of points to be bookable with AGR. Nothing I've read so far seems to change that.


----------



## PRR 60

Devil's Advocate said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: this also means no such thing as a 4 or 5 zone trip.
> 
> 
> 
> It's true that there was never a four or five zone *award*. However, there are numerous published trips that have to be broken into *multiple* awards totaling four or five zones worth of points to be bookable with AGR. Nothing I've read so far seems to change that.
Click to expand...

In fact, the guidelines issued today confirm that. As you said, what AGR now defines as a "circle trip" will be broken into multiple award trips. Depending on the origin and destination, such a trip could well be a two-zone award one way, and another two-zone award the other way.


----------



## Aaron

fairviewroad said:


> I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that
> 
> a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.


I agree that any individual city pair that I can come up with is no big deal. However, the aggregate total of all of the problematic pairings may be enough to impact significant numbers of people. Then again, maybe not. Either way, those problems are all symptomatic of a larger problem of trying to travel north-south in a train network that really only runs eat-west between the Mississippi and the Pacific. The current zone map with zones arranged east to west may be the best way of handling a rewards program on such a network, but it will still leave a few poorly handled edge cases.

A more fair way to handle it might be a strict conversion from points to dollars like Southwest Airlines or something like that. However, if you gave me the choice, I think I'd prefer the current system, flaws and all. I may not be able to go where I want to, but once you know the rules and can figure out how to maximize what's available, you can still get a tremendous value for your points.


----------



## amamba

fairviewroad said:


> I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that
> 
> a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.
> 
> Abamba's point about adding PVD-NYP to an otherwise bookable itinerary is a much more relevant concern, though.


Thank you. No response from the AGR Insider, though, about that. I guess I would try to ask the agent about my PVD - Houston trip, (sorry can't remember the code for Houston!) because like I said, NYP - Houston is bookable arrow, and PVD - NOL comes up in arrow as a legal connection to the Crescent in arrow.


----------



## ATXEagle

fairviewroad said:


> I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that
> 
> a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.
> 
> Abamba's point about adding PVD-NYP to an otherwise bookable itinerary is a much more relevant concern, though.


The issue goes beyond a few isolated city pairs, I used Winter Haven as an example because it is one of two stations near my parents that I personally have experience with. The issue with Arrow's city pair programming applies when one tries to connect from any of the southeastern Atlantic coast cities served by the Silver Meteor to any of the cities served by the Texas Eagle. It is not a matter of one city pair, but a whole set of viable connections that have not been programmed into the system.

The issue also goes beyond AGR, but affects paid bookings too. Many customers probably do not know that they can piece together paid itineraries using the multi-city tool and might never see possibly more attractive options that have just never been programmed into Arrow.


----------



## crescent2

Ispolkom said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think two of the big positives (that supposedly were not allowed before) in the guidelines are the allowable overnight layovers of less than 23.5 hours, and the exceptions for getting a sleeper on routes that Arrow doesn't give. Am I missing something here?
> 
> 
> 
> Given *AGR Insider'*'s clarification that all award travel has to be via "published routes," I think that neither of these positives exist. Overnights are only allowed when they are part of a route that's already programmed, like New York - New Orleans - Houston, or Portland - Los Angeles - Kingman.
> 
> These new rules are something of a let down, I think, because the new dispensation is not just that you can only book routes that are available on the Web site, but also that not all of those routes can be booked at any price. What the new rules call "circle routes" are simply not bookable as one AGR award, including the Houston - LA - Portland - St. Paul trip I took in January.
Click to expand...

Thanks! But doesn't the exception for sleeping accommodations allow for a route that's not "published"?

Also, what would the purpose of the "23.5 hour" rule be?

I'm not trying to be argumentative--I've never used AGR so I have zero experience with it--but I don't understand why these exceptions are stated if they only cover what's already covered, so to speak.

Drat!! 

Also, I thought the "circle route" rule seemed more restrictive, too, but I didn't mention it because I didn't know of an example. If it's a route Arrow gives and there's not a clearly better alternate route, the rule seems a bit much.

I registered with FT yesterday, so I guess I should mosie on over there! Thanks again--


----------



## Anderson

It _may_ be possible to sub a few cases where you're re-routing due to a lack of sleepers on a route even if it isn't in Arrow. The phrasing _seems_ to offer that as an exception to the "published routes" rule.

The only "Circle trip" issue might be some legs to/from places in AL/MS (due to being auto-routed through CHI), though some oddness might also exist in parts of the Midwest. The "easy answer" is probably "cash to the border, points beyond".

The one thing that is a bit of a saving grace is that there are some mix-and-match split redemptions to be had that can still "force" a preferred routing.


----------



## crescent2

After reading the posts over on FT, it's still clear as mud to me. 

I just posted this on FT (my very first post there):

Thank you, AGR Insider, for posting AGR redemption rules. Having an idea of what to expect before phoning AGR is very helpful. I have never used AGR, but have now accumulated enough points for a LD trip in sleepers.

I've read the above posts as well as posts on the AGR forum on AU, but I'm unclear on whether this itinerary is allowed on a single AGR redemption, all in sleeper accommodations:
DEN to DAV (or possibly EMY) on the CZ
DAV (or possibly EMY) to LAX on the CS
The trip comes up on amtrak.com using the multicity option, the overnight layover is less than 23.5 hours, and both trains have sleepers. And, viewing AGR's own zone map, this IS the most direct routing. (I want to book a train trip, not a bus trip.) 

The "all sleepers" exception and the "<23.5 hour layover" rule would seem to allow it, and it's certainly not a crazy or circuitous routing. Is this a valid redemption? If not, can you explain the reasoning? Thanks!

Guess I'll be enlightened when a reply is posted there!


----------



## amamba

I PMed the AGR insider about the PVD - Houston trip and she said she would check with operations and get back to me.


----------



## PRR 60

amamba said:


> I PMed the AGR insider about the PVD - Houston trip and she said she would check with operations and get back to me.


Not a she. A he, at least most of the time.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

To me it makes it very clear each Zone you travel through, even if you come back to it is treated as a separate "billable" Zone; so for example the Columbus Loophole would be billed as a 3 Zone Reward. No problems there, as that is what I was charged when I took that run 3 years ago.

Now, it pays to do your homework before getting on the phone with AGR and make sure everything looks alright in ARROW. There are still some quirks in the system regarding connections you may need to explore. For example if I put in FTW as my endpoint rather than NOR that sometimes opens up more route options even though the connection to the _*Heartland Flyer*_ from the _*Texas*_ _*Eagles*_ at FTW is a legal one.


----------



## crescent2

The "circle route" rule seems very clearly stated to me, too, although I understand why it's not a popular rule.

I'm unclear about the "all sleepers" and "<23.5 hour layovers" rules/exceptions. Some very logical, direct routes don't come up in Arrow unless you use Multicity, but one or both of these rules seem to apply to them imo. But no one seems to know for sure.


----------



## fairviewroad

ATXEagle said:


> The issue goes beyond a few isolated city pairs,


I hear you, but it has less to do with the sheer _number_ of unbookable city pairs and more to do with the

_type_ of unbookable city pairs. Amtrak justifiably is more concerned with city pairs that are more likely

to be the subject of passenger demand.

Yeah, I don't really get why there are city pairs that are otherwise valid but not programmed into the booking

system. After all, there are a finite number of city pairs and a finite number of trains. And Amtrak schedules,

particularly LD trains, rarely change significantly, so you could basically program in all the city pairs once and

make changes only when the rare schedule change demands it. But, I'm not an IT person so I don't know

what all's involved.


----------



## fairviewroad

jimhudson said:


> They are ALL Equally Important to Amtraks Best Customers,


Hate to burst your bubble, but that just isn't true. Amtrak's "best customers" are the ones who consistently spend the most money

on tickets. Those folks aren't the ones who travel once or twice a year on a LD train. Amtrak's "best customers" almost without exception

live along busy corridors with multiple daily trains, and aren't terribly interested in traveling from a small town on a thrice-weekly

route to a small-town 1500 miles away on a once-daily route.

I'm NOT one of Amtrak's "best customers" and I don't live in the NEC, either. I've certainly seen some silly quirks in the Amtrak booking

system. But I also have a realistic view of what I mean to Amtrak in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## the_traveler

Aaron said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aaron said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm planning a trip from Tucson to Vancouver BC. The only published routing is the CS to the Thruway bus (since the CS gets in too late to take the Cascades). I'd rather take the train that leaves the next morning.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that taking the train would be nicer, but even if you can't get AGR to give it to you, it wouldn't cost very much to pay cash.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, it's a family of four, and the same situation would apply both ways, and if I was looking at BC (which is what I'd be getting if AGR would give it to me) I'd be looking at a total of $408 at the low bucket. Without BC, I'm still looking at $180. Whether or not that's very much is all relative of course, but it's enough that I'd definitely consider slumming it on the bus.
Click to expand...

While what you say is all very true, remember that the Cascades run from SEA to VAC is a special route! Thus it is 1,500 coach or 2,000 BC. It may be worth it to use points if a thru award can't be used.


----------



## Ispolkom

crescent2 said:


> Thanks! But doesn't the exception for sleeping accommodations allow for a route that's not "published"? Also, what would the purpose of the "23.5 hour" rule be?
> 
> I'm not trying to be argumentative--I've never used AGR so I have zero experience with it--but I don't understand why these exceptions are stated if they only cover what's already covered, so to speak.
> 
> Drat!!


Please don't apologize for being argumentative. After all, my post was an argument.

I'd agree that the two rules you quote aren't necessary, that saying that only published routes are allowed is sufficient. All I can say is that not everyone is into the brevity thing.

Look at the rules carefully, though. In both cases they only apply to published routes:





> Where a *published route *requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.
> [*]Where a *published route *contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)



(bolding mine)

I wish the answer were otherwise, but there it is. It's difficult for me to see that this is anything other than another tightening of rules against the kind of AGR redemption I prefer, and which AGR (quite rightly) doesn't like, one that exploits the skeletal network, zone boundaries, and the no-overnight rule.

One thing I don't understand. If circle route redemptions are now illegal, why are the routes left in Arrow? Does anyone actually *buy *a ticket from Kansas City to Columbus?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Circle routes are still legal; you are just billed for each Zone you pass through. In the case of the Columbus, that is now clarified to be a 3 Zone Redemption-Middle, West, Middle.


----------



## Ispolkom

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Circle routes are still legal; you are just billed for each Zone you pass through. In the case of the Columbus, that is now clarified to be a 3 Zone Redemption-Middle, West, Middle.


Yes, but circle route *redemptions* aren't legal. KCY-CBS isn't a 3-zone redemption, rather it's two redemptions, one two-zone and one one-zone. A pedantic distinction without much difference perhaps, but a distinction nonetheless.


----------



## tonys96

Why on Earth does this not get routed SWC/EB ?

Just let the pax decide if they want to overnight in Chicago on their own dime?

It seems to me that this is the preferred booking, with the 23.5 hour rule fully in play!


----------



## crescent2

fairviewroad said:


> ATXEagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue goes beyond a few isolated city pairs,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I don't really get why there are city pairs that are otherwise valid but not programmed into the booking
> 
> system. After all, there are a finite number of city pairs and a finite number of trains. And Amtrak schedules,
> 
> particularly LD trains, rarely change significantly, so you could basically program in all the city pairs once and
> 
> make changes only when the rare schedule change demands it. But, I'm not an IT person so I don't know
> 
> what all's involved.
Click to expand...

I can't understand why Amtrak doesn't have all reasonable routes and city pairs programmed into Arrow, either. Granted, it's a job that would take some time initially, but it doesn't seem it would be an especially difficult task for an IT person. No doubt Amtrak loses paying customers because they think, "I can't get there from here."

Also hard to understand why so many of their phone agents don't understand how their system works (many, many posts on AU mention that).

Same thing with the current AGR zone map image missing the zone border cities, which the previous map image included. A little thing, maybe, but also simple.

Addressing these issues would not only help their customers, it would benefit Amtrak as well.

I keep telling myself, "Be glad there's still an Amtrak at all."


----------



## crescent2

I was interrupted in the middle of writing the above post about the missing itineraries. It obviously wasn't in reply to the most recent posts.

Ispolkom, thanks for your reply. I meant argumentative as in "fussy," not as in arguing a case. I hope I didn't sound too fussy! I honestly can't figure out those two rules/exceptions, and I appreciate your clarifications.

I probably should have PM'd AGR Insider rather than posting to the FT thread, but hopefully I'll get a reply anyway.

You are correct that the "23.5 hour layover" rule says it applies to "published" routes, but I'm still hoping the "all sleepers" exception will allow at least some redemptions that couldn't previously be made (unless you're yarrow LOL). If you want to book all sleepers on a trip and have to do that through an unpublished route......??? (as long as it's not a ridiculous routing)

Another thought: Even if they pop up only in Multicity, isn't that "published" as well? Yep, I'm grasping at straws! 

As for the "circle route" rule, perhaps it's reasonable (though not welcomed!) when it applies to a circle route that's being planned solely for the sake of maximizing mileage on an award. OTOH, may that shouldn't matter? Regardless, aren't many circle routes legitimately the only way to get from point A to point B on Amtrak, given Amtrak's limited network? It may be a bit unfair to penalize those passengers by requiring an additional redemption. This probably won't ever be an issue on my trips, but I know it is for many here.

Publishing their rules has generated more questions, which was probably to be expected.


----------



## zephyr17

Well, I thought it might be more restrictive, and, according to the published rules, my proposed trip SEA-LAX-NYP can be done within the guidelines, so I am happy. SEA-LAX-ABQ via 11 & 4 as a 1 zone reward. The connection of 11 to 4 does show on the website for SEA-ABQ without using the Multi-City option, and the scheduled layover is less than 23:30, so that is legit. ABQ-NYP as a straightforward 2 zone reward via 4 & 48.

I am glad they published it, because now if I have an AGR agent that is uncooperative, I have published guidelines I can cite.


----------



## PaulM

Ispolkom said:


> I don't think that you can book one redemption PVD-HOS, since it's not a published route. The exception they give (PDX-KGM) doesn't apply because that *is* a published route.


I'm not sure I'm following this. I thought Amamba was trying to invoke the sleeper exception because the published route includes the bus segment without sleepers. What I would be afraid of is that a slick agent would counter that the alternative does not have sleepers on *all *segments (i.e, PVD to NYP). The exception does not allow for itineraries that are a lot more sleeper or sleeper all except a segment you wouldn't need a sleeper for anyway.

I would hope enough people complain that the word "all" goes against the spirit of exception, and get it reworded to allow for Amanda's case.

As far as the PDX-KGM example is concerned, you are probably right that it is a published route (I didn't check); but the wording of the rule says it is an "alternative, implying it isn't published. Probably just a bad example of the exception. Obviously, PDX-KGM doesn't have anything to do with PVD-HOS.


----------



## amamba

PRR 60 said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> I PMed the AGR insider about the PVD - Houston trip and she said she would check with operations and get back to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a she. A he, at least most of the time.
Click to expand...

Really? Many AgR insider posts are signed Becky.


----------



## amamba

And seriously how hard is it to get the quotes to work on a freaking iPhone.


----------



## Ryan

It's been fixed in the most recently released version of the software.

They're waiting to install it to make sure all of the bugs are worked out from the hardware move before they start messing with the software.

Given that things seem to be running smoothly, I'd bet that we'll see it real soon.


----------



## AlanB

amamba said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> I PMed the AGR insider about the PVD - Houston trip and she said she would check with operations and get back to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a she. A he, at least most of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? Many AgR insider posts are signed Becky.
Click to expand...

Not in at least the last 6 months. I don't think I've seen a "Becky" post since at least October of last year.


----------



## Ryan

Maybe she's thinking of Vickie? Doesn't she do a bunch of that?


----------



## AlanB

Ryan said:


> Maybe she's thinking of Vickie? Doesn't she do a bunch of that?


Could be, and Vickie is still there. She was Beckie's boss.


----------



## jis

Ispolkom said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Circle routes are still legal; you are just billed for each Zone you pass through. In the case of the Columbus, that is now clarified to be a 3 Zone Redemption-Middle, West, Middle.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but circle route *redemptions* aren't legal. KCY-CBS isn't a 3-zone redemption, rather it's two redemptions, one two-zone and one one-zone. A pedantic distinction without much difference perhaps, but a distinction nonetheless.
Click to expand...

But buying a circle itinerary is legal, that is why it is still there as a legal route in the reservation systm. Afterall everyone is not like the_traveler, using Amtrak only with AGR redemptions.


----------



## benjibear

It is great that they published this and I think the results will be great overall. It will give a fairness that is needed in the AGR program. Also, it will force Amtrak to look at adding aditional routes into Arrow. This will help with the casual user that may punch into Amtrak their rounte and it gives them something that may not be the best. With more options, it may encourage people to ride. Not everyone does any research into how to get from point A to point B.


----------



## jis

That is very true. I know of a few cases where a novice simply chose not to use Amtrak when offered what to him/her appeared to be an absurd route when they were aware of a more rational possibility, but not offered that. If this forces Amtrak to add other possible and possibly more usable connecting routes it will just be generally better for all.


----------



## crescent2

Benjibear and jis: +1

AGR Insider has posted in reply to several questions posted on FT.

Here's most of Insider's post:

*Feel free to PM me with connections you are trying to book for a travel redemption that meet our guidelines, but for some reason seem to be missing, and I'll pass them along. Just try to be reasonable about the volume of messages...




*

Now, to address a couple of questions that have come up:

* 23.5 hour rule - this is a longtime Amtrak tariff rule for what constitutes a valid transfer as opposed to a stopover for pricing purposes (on the revenue side of the house), and it carries over to what is allowed for AGR redemption itineraries. There are some itineraries which are automatically generated with a <=23.5 hour overnight connection, and such an itinerary would be valid on a single redemption. If an itinerary follows the guidelines and should be published, but isn't, tell an agent to escalate to supervisor, or send to me and it will be passed along to train operations for review.

* "Alternate direct routing" where the published route is a crazy train/bus combo and a better, all-sleeper train-train connection exists -- this is intended to cover sensible, direct unpublished routes. Ideally, we would like to hear about these connections and try to get them added to avoid confusion. The rule is meant to help in cases where they aren't. The PDX-KNG example (trains 11 to 4) was added to the connection table after the rule was written, funny enough. Originally, the only published route for PDX-KNG was 11-3712-712-5812-4, because it could all be done without a forced overnight on the customer's dime. 11-4 with an overnight in L.A. is much more sensible for the average person, and was a great example of a "direct" routing that simply wasn't published.

LAX-SAC-DEN on trains 14 and 6, or DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11, are other great examples that would be allowed under this policy. 785-4785-6 or even 4-8604, the two published routes today, aren't all that appealing. (Surely you'll agree, though, that a single connection to a four-hour bus ride isn't as big of a deal as the various transfers in Central California.)

In any case, the 23.5 hour rule applies for any forced overnight.

** Circle trip rule stands as written. KCY-CBS is a published route because it's the only way to get between those two cities on Amtrak whether you're paying with cash or with points -- but going from central zone to western zone, then back to central zone, cannot be done on the same redemption. Same PNR or reservation, sure, but not the same point redemption.*

It is not a one-zone redemption even though both KCY and CBS happen to be in the same zone.

Since he or she gives the example of DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11 as being allowed, I'm taking the post as a "Yes" to my DEN-DAV (or perhaps EMY)-LAX question. Before the chickens are counted, though, does anyone see a reason this itinerary would not be allowed even though DEN-SAC-LAX is allowed? Thanks-

Apparently the "23.5 hour layover" rule will be considered on a case-by-case basis unless the trip already shows up on Arrow. However, Insider also says that it "applies to any forced overnight."

The "circle trip" rule is just as it is stated in the rules.

Unless I'm misinterpreting something in Insider's post, his or her clarifications on the "23.5 hour layover" and "all sleepers" rules/exceptions are favorable ones.  Two out of three isn't bad!


----------



## CHamilton

benjibear said:


> Also, it will force Amtrak to look at adding aditional routes into Arrow. This will help with the casual user that may punch into Amtrak their rounte and it gives them something that may not be the best.


Very true. At present, Arrow sometimes spits out some crazy routings, like this one that came up yesterday while I was considering a Thanksgiving trip.






I decided to book SEA-VAC instead... :blink:


----------



## jis

I am delighted to see Amtrak finally become so 21st century proactive with its customers on this issue.

now only if we could get such engagement from Amtrak about schedules on the NEC.  There are several minor tweaks that would make interline connections so much more convenient between Amtrak and NJT etc. But getting either NJT or Amtrak to budge, or even acknowledge that submission of an idea, is like moving the Himalayas.


----------



## calwatch

The best thing they could do is allow the transfer in Chicago between eastbound trains and westbound trains with the 23.5 hour layover - which would eliminate the need to go to the west coast for the KCY-CBS trip.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> I am delighted to see Amtrak finally become so 21st century proactive with its customers on this issue.
> now only if we could get such engagement from Amtrak about schedules on the NEC.  There are several minor tweaks that would make interline connections so much more convenient between Amtrak and NJT etc. But getting either NJT or Amtrak to budge, or even acknowledge that submission of an idea, is like moving the Himalayas.


They need to have some Meetings, form a Task Force and Study it for Several Years jis! :help:


----------



## Devil's Advocate

> Circle trip rule stands as written...Going from central zone to western zone, then back to central zone, cannot be done on the same redemption. Same PNR or reservation, sure, but not the same point redemption. It is not a one-zone redemption even though both KCY and CBS happen to be in the same zone.


Something about this feels like AGR members are potentially being penalized for a situation they have no control over. I can understand why KCY-CBS is not a single zone trip. Thanks to the actions of ethically challenged loophole braggarts AGR was being abused. I have no problem with that change and I can certainly understand the desire to close loopholes in order to avoid intentional and repeated abuse. However, Amtrak then goes on to exclude published routings that have no other alternative due to the skeletal nature of their thin schedule and sparse route network.

That doesn't seem like they're merely preventing intentional abuse to me. It feels more like they went a step further on this one and turned a supposedly simple clarification into a backdoor points devaluation. We didn't create the schedule or the route network and we didn't draw the zone map, so why are we being penalized with extra zone fees for choosing the one and only routing that Amtrak offers? I've been told KCY-CBS is up to four zones depending on who answers the phone. Am I the only person who thinks this is a bit much?


----------



## Ryan

calwatch said:


> The best thing they could do is allow the transfer in Chicago between eastbound trains and westbound trains with the 23.5 hour layover - which would eliminate the need to go to the west coast for the KCY-CBS trip.


 I asked that exact question over at FT. No answer yet, but I would guess that it would be permitted.



Devil's Advocate said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> AGR Insider has posted in reply to several questions posted on FT.
> 
> *Circle trip rule stands as written...Going from central zone to western zone, then back to central zone, cannot be done on the same redemption. Same PNR or reservation, sure, but not the same point redemption. It is not a one-zone redemption even though both KCY and CBS happen to be in the same zone.*
> 
> 
> 
> Something about this feels like AGR members are potentially being penalized twice. It's not a single zone trip thanks to the repeated actions of ethically challenged loophole braggarts. Fair enough, I can certainly understand the desire to close loopholes in order to avoid intentional and repeated abuse. However, Amtrak then goes on to exclude published routings that have no other alternative due to their skeletal route network. That doesn't seem like any sort of abuse to me. It feels like they went one step too far, and come across as more of a points devaluation than a simple clarification intended to keep an even playing field. We didn't create the network and we certainly didn't draw the zone map, so why are we being penalized with double charging for choosing the only path Amtrak offers?
Click to expand...

Agreed. I would offer some pushback to AGR insider over there. If nothing else, they're at least making a show of seeking and acting on member input (and member outcry got the really crappy refund policy killed).


----------



## City of Miami

Did it? Has the refund policy been killed?

Not according to the agent on the last reservation I made. She made a real point of reading the refund policy and then asking me if I understood it and further asking that I agree to it. This is the policy of 10% penalty for cancelation at any point, right? ....or voucher for 100%


----------



## Ryan

_*Amtrak Guest Rewards*_ refund policy.

You can still cancel AGR awards without penalty, but only because there was such an outcry when one was proposed.


----------



## crescent2

Devil's Advocate said:


> Circle trip rule stands as written...Going from central zone to western zone, then back to central zone, cannot be done on the same redemption. Same PNR or reservation, sure, but not the same point redemption. It is not a one-zone redemption even though both KCY and CBS happen to be in the same zone.
> 
> 
> 
> Something about this feels like AGR members are potentially being penalized for a situation they have no control over.,,,,,,,,,However, Amtrak then goes on to exclude published routings that have no other alternative due to the skeletal nature of their thin schedule and sparse route network.
Click to expand...




Devil's Advocate said:


> ,,,,,,,,,, Am I the only person who thinks this is a bit much?


No, you're not the only one. The circle rule seems too restrictive to me, too, when the only (or even the most direct) way to get from A to B takes you through a different zone to return to the first zone. I could even understand its being a 2-zone redemption, since you do travel through a second zone, but to require an additional redemption (making it essentially 3 zones) to re-enter the first zone seems a bit much. I can also understand them not allowing a long, circuitous route taken just to maximize train miles. But when there is no other choice to get from A to B, it does seem too much.

But I'm very appreciative of the "sleeper" and "23.5 hour" rules/exceptions, and most of all, having a better idea of what to expect now!


----------



## PRR 60

City of Miami said:


> Did it? Has the refund policy been killed?
> Not according to the agent on the last reservation I made. She made a real point of reading the refund policy and then asking me if I understood it and further asking that I agree to it. This is the policy of 10% penalty for cancelation at any point, right? ....or voucher for 100%


The refund policy applies to paid reservations. Reservations made with AGR using points that are canceled prior to scheduled departure allow all points to be redeposited.


----------



## City of Miami

PRR 60 said:


> City of Miami said:
> 
> 
> 
> The refund policy applies to paid reservations. Reservations made with AGR using points that are canceled prior to scheduled departure allow all points to be redeposited.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh.......Thank you.
Click to expand...


----------



## TVRM610

crescent2 said:


> No, you're not the only one. The circle rule seems too restrictive to me, too, when the only (or even the most direct) way to get from A to B takes you through a different zone to return to the first zone. * I could even understand its being a 2-zone redemption*, since you do travel through a second zone, but to require an additional redemption (making it essentially 3 zones) to re-enter the first zone seems a bit much. I can also understand them not allowing a long, circuitous route taken just to maximize train miles. But when there is no other choice to get from A to B, it does seem too much.
> But I'm very appreciative of the "sleeper" and "23.5 hour" rules/exceptions, and most of all, having a better idea of what to expect now!


Yes exactly. If you have to travel through 2 zones, for instance Birmingham AL to Chicago via WAS (arrow will not show an overnight in NOL as an option for this route, even though that would only be 1 zone) that should be 2 zones. Don't count the short travel from Birmingham to Atlanta as an extra zone... that's crazy.

But I'm happy for what we have too.


----------



## AlanB

Ryan said:


> You can still cancel AGR awards without penalty, but only because there was such an outcry when one was proposed.


Of course if too many people abuse the privilege, I suspect that we could well find that proposal coming back around.


----------



## Ryan

TVRM610 said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you're not the only one. The circle rule seems too restrictive to me, too, when the only (or even the most direct) way to get from A to B takes you through a different zone to return to the first zone. * I could even understand its being a 2-zone redemption*, since you do travel through a second zone, but to require an additional redemption (making it essentially 3 zones) to re-enter the first zone seems a bit much. I can also understand them not allowing a long, circuitous route taken just to maximize train miles. But when there is no other choice to get from A to B, it does seem too much.
> 
> But I'm very appreciative of the "sleeper" and "23.5 hour" rules/exceptions, and most of all, having a better idea of what to expect now!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes exactly. If you have to travel through 2 zones, for instance Birmingham AL to Chicago via WAS (arrow will not show an overnight in NOL as an option for this route, even though that would only be 1 zone) that should be 2 zones. Don't count the short travel from Birmingham to Atlanta as an extra zone... that's crazy.
> But I'm happy for what we have too.
Click to expand...

Paying for travel from BHM-ATL would solve that and be dirt cheap. I think that you could also book the trip through NOL as a 1 zone without too much trouble.



AlanB said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can still cancel AGR awards without penalty, but only because there was such an outcry when one was proposed.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course if too many people abuse the privilege, I suspect that we could well find that proposal coming back around.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Which would be a darn shame.


----------



## TVRM610

Ryan said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you're not the only one. The circle rule seems too restrictive to me, too, when the only (or even the most direct) way to get from A to B takes you through a different zone to return to the first zone. * I could even understand its being a 2-zone redemption*, since you do travel through a second zone, but to require an additional redemption (making it essentially 3 zones) to re-enter the first zone seems a bit much. I can also understand them not allowing a long, circuitous route taken just to maximize train miles. But when there is no other choice to get from A to B, it does seem too much.
> 
> But I'm very appreciative of the "sleeper" and "23.5 hour" rules/exceptions, and most of all, having a better idea of what to expect now!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes exactly. If you have to travel through 2 zones, for instance Birmingham AL to Chicago via WAS (arrow will not show an overnight in NOL as an option for this route, even though that would only be 1 zone) that should be 2 zones. Don't count the short travel from Birmingham to Atlanta as an extra zone... that's crazy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Paying for travel from BHM-ATL would solve that and be dirt cheap. I think that you could also book the trip through NOL as a 1 zone without too much trouble.
Click to expand...

Ryan... that's not the point. My solution has been to pay coach for BHM to NOL actually.. and then start my journey from there. It's a day trip and the only meal I have is Lunch.. so even with my dining car bill it's usually under $50 to get to NOL but that's not the point. And I've never been able to get an agent to allow me a routing through NOL with an overnight. Maybe we will see that changed soon.

The point is if I WANTED to start my journey in BHM I should be able to travel on the Arrow approved routing and pay only for the zones that I travel through (2) instead of the zones I travel in and out of.


----------



## Ryan

Obviously, the powers that be disagree with that assessment.

I understand your point, which is why I suggested that you head over to FT and register your feedback. If enough people do, there's a precedent for them changing things.

I also pointed out that with the 23.5 hour rule (which isn't new, but now that it's been published you can know to ask for it and reference it.), you should be able to get the BHM-CHI routing through NOL as a 1 zone without having to pay for anything.


----------



## crescent2

Yeah, AGR Insider said to let them know about routing that should be shown on Arrow but isn't. I bet they will approve the routing you want now--and hopefully program it into Arrow so it does start showing there.


----------



## TVRM610

I'm hoping Crescent2!

It seems rather silly that one of the many high payed people at Amtrak can't take a week and type in station pairs to see what routes are just plain wacky.


----------



## crescent2

TVRM610 said:


> I'm hoping Crescent2!It seems rather silly that one of the many high payed people at Amtrak can't take a week and type in station pairs to see what routes are just plain wacky.


I agree. A lot of Amtrak's problems are probably impossible to fix with their current financial situation, but some of the aggravating ones from a customer service standpoint seem simple enough to fix. I don't understand why they don't fix them. It would benefit Amtrak as well as its customers.

AGR Insider has also posted this reply on FT to my inquiry about DEN-DAV (or EMY)-LAX. Apparently the intent is to loosen up the AGR restrictions on routes that do make sense but aren't shown. 

"*I don't see an issue with that, as long as you leave the next morning (within 23.5 hrs). Whether you pick EMY, DAV, SAC or MTZ is pretty similar. If our operations department decided to add a specific connection between trains 5 and 11 in the future, and chose a particular city for that overnight connection, we might have to revisit the wording of the guideline to be consistent for people who would prefer a different connecting city. I think this is one of those cases where a supervisor would see the common sense behind it and approve the booking.*"

Let's just hope the supervisor does! Ideally, these routes would show up on Arrow so a supervisor would not have to get involved with the redemption.


----------



## AlanB

crescent2 said:


> Let's just hope the supervisor does! Ideally, these routes would show up on Arrow so a supervisor would not have to get involved with the redemption.


If the supervisor doesn't, get a name and then send a PM to AGR. They can properly instruct the agent/super and have them call you back to complete the reservation.


----------



## Aaron

I just want to post here that only a couple of days after posting a rant on that FlyerTalk thread about the lack of published routes starting from most of the Empire Builder to anywhere on the Sunset, the issue has been fixed. For the first time in probably forever (since the Coast Starlight didn't have a valid connection to the Sunset on the old schedule), there is now a published route with a guaranteed connection leaving from anywhere on the EB arriving to anywhere on the SL/TE. The routes were always published going from the SL/TE _to_ the EB, it's just there was no corresponding return route from any station on the EB east of Whitefish to anywhere on the SL/TE.

I'm amazed at the speed with which this was solved.

Now, the holes have been filled, including routing from CHI on the EB, down the CS, and over the SL to wherever. You can make a nice two zone trip CHI-ELP by picking the right day so that you get this routing. Pick the wrong day and you'll get a straight shot down to SAS and connection to the SL. But, pick the right day and it won't connect there because of the thrice-a-week Sunset, and you get the long way instead.


----------



## yarrow

Aaron said:


> I just want to post here that only a couple of days after posting a rant on that FlyerTalk thread about the lack of published routes starting from most of the Empire Builder to anywhere on the Sunset, the issue has been fixed. For the first time in probably forever (since the Coast Starlight didn't have a valid connection to the Sunset on the old schedule), there is now a published route with a guaranteed connection leaving from anywhere on the EB arriving to anywhere on the SL/TE. The routes were always published going from the SL/TE _to_ the EB, it's just there was no corresponding return route from any station on the EB east of Whitefish to anywhere on the SL/TE.
> I'm amazed at the speed with which this was solved.
> 
> Now, the holes have been filled, including routing from CHI on the EB, down the CS, and over the SL to wherever. You can make a nice two zone trip CHI-ELP by picking the right day so that you get this routing. Pick the wrong day and you'll get a straight shot down to SAS and connection to the SL. But, pick the right day and it won't connect there because of the thrice-a-week Sunset, and you get the long way instead.


that is great but what a tight connection, one hour, between cs and sl


----------



## crescent2

I've thought about adding the SL and then the Crescent to my "someday" CZ/CS trip, to avoid having to fly home. But that one-hour connection, at the end of a long CS route, seems very iffy to me. How brave does one need to be to book that?


----------



## yarrow

crescent2 said:


> I've thought about adding the SL and then the Crescent to my "someday" CZ/CS trip, to avoid having to fly home. But that one-hour connection, at the end of a long CS route, seems very iffy to me. How brave does one need to be to book that?


the question is, what would amtrak do if it is missed? put you up in la until the next sl?


----------



## Ryan

I'm sure they do what they could to ensure that didn't happen - either run a bus to catch up (maybe even pulling you off the CS early) or holding the SL if it's going to be close.

But yeah, if they can't make it work, it's "vacation in LA on Amtrak".


----------



## tomfuller

yarrow said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've thought about adding the SL and then the Crescent to my "someday" CZ/CS trip, to avoid having to fly home. But that one-hour connection, at the end of a long CS route, seems very iffy to me. How brave does one need to be to book that?
> 
> 
> 
> the question is, what would amtrak do if it is missed? put you up in la until the next sl?
Click to expand...

The "safe" way to do this is to take the CS south only to Sacramento and then take the short Amtrak bus trip to Stockton, the San Joaquin to Bakersfield and the longer bus trip Bakersfield to LAX. You get into LAX by 7PM instead of 9PM or after.

You do miss the sunset near Santa Barbara. You do get a couple hours in Sacramento to get breakfast and see the Capitol grounds. Too bad the California Railroad Museum doesn't open until 11AM.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Aaron said:


> I just want to post here that only a couple of days after posting a rant on that FlyerTalk thread about the lack of published routes starting from most of the Empire Builder to anywhere on the Sunset, the issue has been fixed. For the first time in probably forever (since the Coast Starlight didn't have a valid connection to the Sunset on the old schedule), there is now a published route with a guaranteed connection leaving from anywhere on the EB arriving to anywhere on the SL/TE. The routes were always published going from the SL/TE _to_ the EB, it's just there was no corresponding return route from any station on the EB east of Whitefish to anywhere on the SL/TE.
> I'm amazed at the speed with which this was solved.
> 
> Now, the holes have been filled, including routing from CHI on the EB, down the CS, and over the SL to wherever. You can make a nice two zone trip CHI-ELP by picking the right day so that you get this routing. Pick the wrong day and you'll get a straight shot down to SAS and connection to the SL. But, pick the right day and it won't connect there because of the thrice-a-week Sunset, and you get the long way instead.


 Great News, looks like AGR Insider is on a Roll!!! Hopefully the other Areas of the Country will have their Oversights corrected Shortly!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

It's nice to have some good old fashioned R&R (ranting & resolving) once in a while.


----------



## Aaron

yarrow said:


> Aaron said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just want to post here that only a couple of days after posting a rant on that FlyerTalk thread about the lack of published routes starting from most of the Empire Builder to anywhere on the Sunset, the issue has been fixed. For the first time in probably forever (since the Coast Starlight didn't have a valid connection to the Sunset on the old schedule), there is now a published route with a guaranteed connection leaving from anywhere on the EB arriving to anywhere on the SL/TE. The routes were always published going from the SL/TE _to_ the EB, it's just there was no corresponding return route from any station on the EB east of Whitefish to anywhere on the SL/TE.
> I'm amazed at the speed with which this was solved.
> 
> Now, the holes have been filled, including routing from CHI on the EB, down the CS, and over the SL to wherever. You can make a nice two zone trip CHI-ELP by picking the right day so that you get this routing. Pick the wrong day and you'll get a straight shot down to SAS and connection to the SL. But, pick the right day and it won't connect there because of the thrice-a-week Sunset, and you get the long way instead.
> 
> 
> 
> that is great but what a tight connection, one hour, between cs and sl
Click to expand...

No, that's not really as tight as it might seem. For starters, the CS #11 almost always gets in early. For all the jokes about "Coast Starlate" and whatnot, it's timekeeping is actually pretty good over the last few years. Secondly, if the #11 is running late, they'll hold #2 to wait for it (within reason). Remember, there are a _lot_ of people connecting from #11 to #2. Amtrak has a huge financial incentive to not have to put them up for a couple of days or fly them home.

In another thread where this was discussed, I actually went back six months and pulled every arrival time for #11 on the days when #2 was also running. There was only one day when #2 left before #11 arrived, and that was when #11 was delayed by several hours. All other times, either #11 got in in plenty of time, or they held #2. Even one day when the #11 arrived over two hours late, they still held #2.

So, I wouldn't worry about that at all. When I did the #11 to #2 connection just a couple of weeks ago, I was praying hard that we'd run into some massive delay, because I'd really love a LA vacation on Amtrak's dime. Alas, it was not to be. This connection appears to be as solid as anything else in the system.


----------



## crescent2

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's nice to have some good old fashioned R&R (ranting & resolving) once in a while.


DA: I love your definition of R&R!  There's often a lot of the first R without much of the second.

Aaron: That's good to hear! Apparently the connection isn't as iffy as it sounds.

I'm glad your routes show up on Arrow now. I checked this morning, and mine still didn't. But I think they could be booked with a supervisor's help.

Tom: My reason for taking the CS would be the coastal scenery, so the SJ/bus routing would not be my choice of routes mainly for that reason.

Ryan: Catching up to the SL on a bus from LAX would be OK, but I wouldn't want to miss the scenery I mentioned to Tom, so I would be disappointed if pulled off the CS early.. A mini-LA vacation wouldn't be bad, except sleepers might not be available on the next day's train. Nothing's for certain, though.

Thanks guys!


----------



## tomfuller

Just got my new Amtrak timetable.

Another solution for your trip south to LAX: Arrive a day earlier than you had planned on the CS to Sacramento. Spend most of the day in the California Railroad Museum. Leave on the 523 or 723 at 5:30 or 5:40 AM. You do have to take a bus from San Jose to SLO then taking the Surfliner into LAX arriving about 7:10PM. You get the coastal views about 2 hours earlier.


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## ATXEagle

As others have said, AGR Insider on FlyerTalk has been very responsive to everyone's questions and concerns about the new guidelines. The Insider asked us to send private messages of any "holes" we spotted in the Arrow reservation system that might make it difficult to redeem a zone reward. I sent in a missed connection I found between trains 98 and 51 at Washington that I posted about earlier in this forum. Within 24 hours of my private message to the AGR Insider, the connection was added to Arrow and is easily bookable online as a paid itinerary or over the phone as a reward. I've been really impressed with the Insider's responsiveness.


----------



## TVRM610

ATXEagle said:


> As others have said, AGR Insider on FlyerTalk has been very responsive to everyone's questions and concerns about the new guidelines. The Insider asked us to send private messages of any "holes" we spotted in the Arrow reservation system that might make it difficult to redeem a zone reward. I sent in a missed connection I found between trains 98 and 51 at Washington that I posted about earlier in this forum. Within 24 hours of my private message to the AGR Insider, the connection was added to Arrow and is easily bookable online as a paid itinerary or over the phone as a reward. I've been really impressed with the Insider's responsiveness.


That's awesome! Great to hear all of this.


----------



## amamba

My PVD - HOS was fixed and added to arrow after a PM to the AGR Insider. :hi:


----------



## momof5

Hopefully this is not too confusing as I am explaining it.

I have a question concerning having to get on a bus for part of your trip. I am planning a trip on the CZ from Emeryville - Little Rock. EMY- leaving at 9:10 a.m.- GBB arriving at 11:31 am on the CZ in Roomettes. Then I would get on a bus at 2:40p.m.- SPI arriving at 5:00 p.m. where I would then get on the TE at 5:14p.(in roomettes still) and arriving in LRK at 3:10 a.m.

Since I would have to get on a bus in Galesburg, could I actually take the CZ into Chicago (arriving at 2:50 p.m.) spend the night on my own dime and then be able to get on the TE the next day (leaving at 1:45 p.m......so it is within the 23.5 hr time mark) and still be able to get the roomettes all for my 2 zone award?

Any help would be appreciated.


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## Bob Dylan

The Galesburg to Springfield Bustitution (actually it's a Van) is THE Standard Amtrak Procedure for this Connection so AGR will Automatically Book this as the Default Route for your Trip! The Trip is through the Cornfields of Northern/Central Illinois via Peoria, the Drivers are Retired Gentleman, very Friendly and its Via Freeway so the trip is Generally Non-Stop and Rapid! If you want to go to Chicago and Spend the Night you either will have to be Running Very Late into Galesburg and Amtrak will put you up on their Nickel and Book you, Space Available, on the next Available Eagle or else Book a Seperate 1 Zone Award CHI-LRK or Buy a Ticket from Chicago to Little Rock on the Next Day's Eagle!

FWIW: Once when I was riding on a Late SWC from LAX-Galesburg (the Same Van makes a Connection between Galesburg and Springfield) and AGR Rebooked me from KCY-STL on the River Runner in BC and the Eagle from STL-AUS in a Roomette ! This would not be possible now because the River Runner Schedules have Changed and sometimes a Late SWC will miss Connections with the AM River Runner in KCY?


----------



## momof5

Thanks jimhudson! Just wanted to see what my options were. Looks like we will be meeting some very nice van drivers.


----------



## Bob Dylan

momof5 said:


> Thanks jimhudson! Just wanted to see what my options were. Looks like we will be meeting some very nice van drivers.


:hi: Be sure and use the Restroom and let them know if you want to get Snacks or Something to Drink Before you Leave Galesburg, they Will Stop, if on Schedule, since the Van Generally gets to Springfield Early!

And the Van can get Crowded if Full,! (with Luggage loaded in the Back!) The Best Seats are in the First Row Behind the Driver and the Shot-Gun Seat in Front! First Come, First Served!


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## momof5

jimhudson....We have a 3 hr. layover in Galesburg...is there something to do that would interest 2 adults and 2 young girls (8&10)?


----------



## crescent2

Mom: I'm not familiar with your routing and certainly don't have the experience that Jim has, but from your post, it sounds like you *might* be able to, because of that "all sleepers" exception in the guidelines. But I may be totally missing something--I'm just learning! Is all of the rest of your trip (except for the van) going to be in sleepers? And would going to CHI make the routing circuitous and illogical? If so, that might nix it.


----------



## momof5

crescent2.....yes the rest of my trip would all be in sleepers. I just thought MAYBE because of the "all sleeper" exception we might be able to make an evening in Chicago on our dime of course. And then be able to pick up the train there and finish on to Little Rock.....all of course keeping it in the 2-zone award. If I had to make it an extra award just so I could go to Chicago I will just hop in the van and be "happy, happy, happy".


----------



## crescent2

As said, I've not looked at that route, but they do allow *some* trips that weren't previously allowed before the guidelines were published earlier this month, even if they don't come up on Arrow, according to AGR Insider, who is a higher-up at Amtrak. It might be worth a try if you mention the all-sleepers exception to the agent. Have a great trip in any case!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

momof5 said:


> jimhudson....We have a 3 hr. layover in Galesburg...is there something to do that would interest 2 adults and 2 young girls (8&10)?


You can explore the station and walk around town to check out the shops. When you're bored with that have a stop at the Landmark Cafe & Creperie...


----------



## Judy g

For 6 years we have traveled south from LSE TO SAS.via an overnight on our own in NOL, then on to SAS. EB misses Texas eagle connection south by one hour. Published route LSE to Portland to LA to SAS 4+ DAYS!! and 3 zones. other logical route through NOL was one zone for sleeper. Because our NOL overnight is less than 24 hours will this still be allowed???


----------



## Ryan

Perhaps. EB-CONO-SL isn't a published route. However, if you call up and ask, they can probably add it as a published routing.


----------



## Judy g

Ryan said:


> Perhaps. EB-CONO-SL isn't a published route. However, if you call up and ask, they can probably add it as a published routing.





Ryan said:


> Perhaps. EB-CONO-SL isn't a published route. However, if you call up and ask, they can probably add it as a published routing.


. Who do you call ??? AGR was adamant because it was NOT PUBLISHED ROUTE.


----------



## Ryan

Judy g said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps. EB-CONO-SL isn't a published route. However, if you call up and ask, they can probably add it as a published routing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps. EB-CONO-SL isn't a published route. However, if you call up and ask, they can probably add it as a published routing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Who do you call ??? AGR was adamant because it was NOT PUBLISHED ROUTE.
Click to expand...




Ryan said:


> Edit: This post by AGR Insider is GREAT:
> 
> 
> 
> All of the train connections in our reservation system are entered manually by our national train operations center, after considering operational feasibility of publishing and guaranteeing the connection, on top of the simple "legality" under tariff rules. However, you are right that many otherwise workable connections are simply missing, or are available from one city but not from another.
> 
> The solution we have proposed to our agents is that if they feel a connection really should be available, but isn't, they can submit it to a supervisor for review and escalation if a customer asks for it. AGR can then ask train operations about adding it to the connection table; however, this is not an immediate process and research can take a few days. On the bright side, if a connection is added, it will be available to all other customers who might want it later, whether paying with money or with points.
> 
> For consistency's sake across all agents, the default will be to only book automatically generated itineraries. There is no other lowest common denominator that will ensure a consistent member experience, given the way our reservation system operates today.
Click to expand...


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## amamba

One concern that I have that I don't think we have discussed on AU recently came up on Flyertalk with no response from AGR Insider. The new policies state that the max occupancy of the room for an AGR trip can only be the RECOMMENDED guidelines posted on amtrak.com for sleepers. This means that the max occupancy for a bedroom is 2 people - either 2 adults or 1 adult or 1 child.

My question is are family bedrooms still allowed to be redeemed at the bedroom rate?


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## Ryan

Good find, I hadn't noticed that. Hope that gets fixed.


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## AlanB

amamba said:


> My question is are family bedrooms still allowed to be redeemed at the bedroom rate?


If they weren't being allowed, I strongly suspect that would have been included in the rules. AGR is well aware that one could redeem for a family room; so I cannot imagine that they would stop allowing that and not make any mention of it. AGR is taking great strides IMHO to be more open and to streamline policies so that everyone can understand them and also have something to point too when an Agent goes rouge. So to suddenly eliminate something and make no mention of it doesn't make sense.


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## MisterToad

amamba said:


> One concern that I have that I don't think we have discussed on AU recently came up on Flyertalk with no response from AGR Insider. The new policies state that the max occupancy of the room for an AGR trip can only be the RECOMMENDED guidelines posted on amtrak.com for sleepers. This means that the max occupancy for a bedroom is 2 people - either 2 adults or 1 adult or 1 child.


AGR Insider did respond to that concern - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/21056510-post5.html



amamba said:


> My question is are family bedrooms still allowed to be redeemed at the bedroom rate?


For what it's worth, I redeemed points for a family bedroom a few minutes ago at the bedroom rate (25,000 points for a 1 zone trip).


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## Ryan

Hrm.

Wonder if I'd be allowed to combine a paid open sleeper ticket at the child rate with a room redemption to get my son into a bedroom with my wife and I.


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## AlanB

Ryan said:


> Hrm.
> Wonder if I'd be allowed to combine a paid open sleeper ticket at the child rate with a room redemption to get my son into a bedroom with my wife and I.


Technically there is nothing that would prevent that from happening. I've done a paid open sleeper on a sleeper AGR reservation in the past.

But this is not to suggest that an agent would allow it, especially if it has been put into the rules to not allow it for a situation like this.


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## amamba

MisterToad said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> One concern that I have that I don't think we have discussed on AU recently came up on Flyertalk with no response from AGR Insider. The new policies state that the max occupancy of the room for an AGR trip can only be the RECOMMENDED guidelines posted on amtrak.com for sleepers. This means that the max occupancy for a bedroom is 2 people - either 2 adults or 1 adult or 1 child.
> 
> 
> 
> AGR Insider did respond to that concern - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/21056510-post5.html
> 
> 
> 
> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> My question is are family bedrooms still allowed to be redeemed at the bedroom rate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For what it's worth, I redeemed points for a family bedroom a few minutes ago at the bedroom rate (25,000 points for a 1 zone trip).
Click to expand...

Did you read the entire thread on flyer talk? Because I specifically asked AGR Insider to confirm that the bedroom rate can still be used for family bedroom. That is the unanswered question right now. I guess I meant that the "no response" was on a) the family bedroom issue and b) if one can book children into the room at an additional paid rate. It has never been allowed before, but I can see how some folks might be concerned if they are traveling with a 4 year old and two adults, for example. I think we can all agree that a small child and two adults is quite reasonable in a bedroom, and it seems ludicrous to me that it wouldn't be allowed since one can book the family bedroom for the same point amount.


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## Bob Dylan

I originally responded to the OP on AGR Flyer Talk that the Agent that announced this Policy was in error but AGR Insider corrected it quickly and informed us that this was now the Redemption Policy for Bedroom Awards! It makes No Sense to be able to book a Paid Trip with 2 Adults and a Child or 1 Adult and 2 Children in a Bedroom and be denied by AGR doing this as an Award! I really wonder how they can justify this, sounds like the Right Hand not knowing what the Left Hand is doing which seems to be a regular thing @ Amtrak!  :help:


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## AlanB

Jim,

As insider responded, their policy is already rather generous. At least with a paid Bedroom, Amtrak is collecting the room fare, as well as a railfare for each person in the room including the child. With an award, Amtrak is getting nothing extra for that third person.

Yes I know that some will argue that Amtrak is also getting no additional revenue for putting 3 or 4 people in the family room. But that room was designed for 2 adults & 2 kids; the Bedroom was not. And one loses the perk of the ensuite bathroom in exchange for that extra capacity.

It may be a fine line, it may be an illogical line to some, but nonetheless that is where they chose to draw the line. I for one don't see them altering this rule.


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## Bob Dylan

AlanB said:


> Jim,
> As insider responded, their policy is already rather generous. At least with a paid Bedroom, Amtrak is collecting the room fare, as well as a railfare for each person in the room including the child. With an award, Amtrak is getting nothing extra for that third person.
> 
> Yes I know that some will argue that Amtrak is also getting no additional revenue for putting 3 or 4 people in the family room. But that room was designed for 2 adults & 2 kids; the Bedroom was not. And one loses the perk of the ensuite bathroom in exchange for that extra capacity.
> 
> It may be a fine line, it may be an illogical line to some, but nonetheless that is where they chose to draw the line. I for one don't see them altering this rule.


I understand Alan, it doesnt apply to me but I do wonder about all the Grandparents and Single Parents that want to Travel via Amtrak, with the Grandchildren or their 2 Children! Since there is only 1 Family Room per Superliner Sleeper it will be tougher than ever to Book it and of course the Viewliners don't have a Family Bedroom! What would be wrong with an exception for One Adult and 2 Children in a Bedroom on an AGR Award??


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## Anderson

I think the more realistic question is why Amtrak is being so generous to begin with. Look, you can easily book a non-loophole trip with two in a roomette and get the effective cash value of your points back on meals alone. What _might_ make sense would be to add some points to the cost of a non-standard number of people in a room...but it would probably also make sense to charge at least _something _for the second person in a roomette as well (even if it was something like 5000/7500/12500 versus the roughly 3x that for the roomette with one).


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## crescent2

Like Jim, I'm not affected by this, but it could be a real problem for someone traveling with young children, especially in the Viewliners. If AGR restricts the occupancy to the suggested number of occupants, that's fine, but an option to pay for an additional person up to the maximum number otherwise allowed would be something for Amtrak to consider. Someone (amamba?) suggested adding the railfare for the extra person, which seems reasonable. I would not be comfortable having a young child sleep in a separate accommodation without an adult.


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## Ryan

crescent2 said:


> but an option to pay for an additional person up to the maximum number otherwise allowed would be something for Amtrak to consider. Someone (amamba?) suggested adding the railfare for the extra person, which seems reasonable.


 That was me, and it's probably doable.



AlanB said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hrm.
> 
> Wonder if I'd be allowed to combine a paid open sleeper ticket at the child rate with a room redemption to get my son into a bedroom with my wife and I.
> 
> 
> 
> Technically there is nothing that would prevent that from happening. I've done a paid open sleeper on a sleeper AGR reservation in the past.
> 
> But this is not to suggest that an agent would allow it, especially if it has been put into the rules to not allow it for a situation like this.
Click to expand...


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## rrdude

Ryan said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> but an option to pay for an additional person up to the maximum number otherwise allowed would be something for Amtrak to consider. Someone (amamba?) suggested adding the railfare for the extra person, which seems reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> That was me, and it's probably doable.
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hrm.
> 
> Wonder if I'd be allowed to combine a paid open sleeper ticket at the child rate with a room redemption to get my son into a bedroom with my wife and I.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Technically there is nothing that would prevent that from happening. I've done a paid open sleeper on a sleeper AGR reservation in the past.
> 
> But this is not to suggest that an agent would allow it, especially if it has been put into the rules to not allow it for a situation like this.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Well, glad I booked my CS/CZ/CAP trip a few months ago with AGR, 'cause they ticketed me, and two minors, bedrooms all the way back.

So Ryan, what you are saying is that AGR will book me and wife in a bedroom, but if I want to add my minor child, I'd have to pay the coach fare for them? I dun't like it, but I can live with it.

I still say the easiest to understand, fairest to earn, and easiest to book and use, is SWA Rapid Rewards..........Might now be in MY best interest, but I think it would be in Amtrak's. But I don't see THAT coming until ARROW is scrapped, and a whole new RESV/Ticketing s/w system is installed.


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