# New Canada-US Customs Pre-Clearance



## DSS&A (Aug 19, 2019)

Canada and USA now have a new Customs Pre-Clearance Agreement that covers railroads in addition to airports. 

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2019/08/15/united-states-and-canada-implement-preclearance-agreement


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## supportamtrak (Aug 19, 2019)

If MTR gets pre-clearance, this is going to cut 1 to 2 hours of travel (stalled) time on the Adirondack.


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## jis (Aug 20, 2019)

Someone has to get Quebec to pony up the money for building the facilities at Montreal Central first though. Of course getting this agreement in place is an important pre-requisite and it is good that it is finally in place.


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## supportamtrak (Aug 20, 2019)

As far as I know, CBSA is still a branch of the Canadian Government, CBP the US and MTR is owned by a private company... So the role of the Quebec Government would be limited in scope if any, like showering a private company with tax breaks.


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## cocojacoby (Aug 20, 2019)

This is great news, but I am not sure I understand the exact procedure. In Montreal there is going to be a separate customs facility. When you get off the train I can see that you easily can go through Canadian customs. But when you get on the train is there going to be US customs officials there?

Also what about the station between the border and Montreal, St. Lambert?

Hopefully this makes the return of the Montrealer immanent. This is a no-brainer and really needs to happen.

Also maybe this helps with the concept of running a section of the Lake Shore/New England States through Canada which could be really interesting.


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## railiner (Aug 20, 2019)

I kind of doubt that the US would station personnel at St. Lambert for a few occasional passengers, so that stop may go away once preclearance is implemented.
I suppose they could have an agent ride the train from Montreal to Rouses Point to check any passengers boarding at St. Lambert...


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## jis (Aug 20, 2019)

It has been mentioned in all documentation regarding instituting C&I at Gare Centrale in Montreal that the stop at St. Lambert will be discontinued. So it is not a question of "may go away". It "will go away". The train(s) will run "sealed" from/to Gare Centrale to/from the border, first stop in US - Rouses Point for the Adirondack, St. Albans for the extended Vermonter.

The facilities needed at Gare Centrale has been designed and AFAIR signed off by the stake holders, but it is not yet fully funded.


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## PVD (Aug 20, 2019)

I don't know for sure if it is still in place, but the border stop that occurred going South on the West Coast would no longer be necessary with 100% pre clearance. That may be the first impact on rail we see.


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## jis (Aug 20, 2019)

PVD said:


> I don't know for sure if it is still in place, but the border stop that occurred going South on the West Coast would no longer be necessary with 100% pre clearance. That may be the first impact on rail we see.


You mean the US CBP's ridiculous "we finalize customs check at the border" collection of the Customs forms at Blaine? I doubt that has anything to do with this, and nothing can stop CBP from coming up with new sillinesses either.


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## PVD (Aug 20, 2019)

I thought 100% pre-clearance, if implemented would eliminate that, like the airports. Not sure.


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## jis (Aug 20, 2019)

PVD said:


> I thought 100% pre-clearance, if implemented would eliminate that, like the airports. Not sure.


One would hope so, but CBP will do whatever suits them. It is not clear to me what is the purpose of that charade so it is hard to tell whether said purpose, whatever it is has changed any. The use of the phrase "full pre-clearance" as opposed to "pre-inspection" certainly brings hope of such streamlining.


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## jiml (Aug 20, 2019)

Full pre-clearance when flying doesn't always mean full clearance. It doesn't take much for a pre-cleared plane from Canada to divert to the international terminal at the destination US airport for any irregularity. Doesn't happen often, but as a 2MM flyer I've experienced this a few times over the years - usually at JFK or MIA. You just hope your tiny jet has not arrived at the same time as a few wide-bodies from overseas. Also, some other countries with pre-clearance agreements - Ireland and Aruba come to mind - include only Immigration inspection, with Customs completed at the destination US airport.


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## PRR 60 (Aug 20, 2019)

jiml said:


> Full pre-clearance when flying doesn't always mean full clearance. It doesn't take much for a pre-cleared plane from Canada to divert to the international terminal at the destination US airport for any irregularity. Doesn't happen often, but as a 2MM flyer I've experienced this a few times over the years - usually at JFK or MIA. You just hope your tiny jet has not arrived at the same time as a few wide-bodies from overseas. Also, some other countries with pre-clearance agreements - Ireland and Aruba come to mind - include only Immigration inspection, with Customs completed at the destination US airport.



At least as far as Ireland is concerned (DUB and SNN), pre-clearance is full pre-clearance - immigration and customs. USA Arrivals from DUB and SNN are treated as domestic arrivals. Luggage checked through a USA connection is not claimed until the final destination.


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## jiml (Aug 20, 2019)

jis said:


> It has been mentioned in all documentation regarding instituting C&I at Gare Centrale in Montreal that the stop at St. Lambert will be discontinued. So it is not a question of "may go away". It "will go away". The train(s) will run "sealed" from/to Gare Centrale to/from the border, first stop in US - Rouses Point for the Adirondack, St. Albans for the extended Vermonter.
> 
> The facilities needed at Gare Centrale has been designed and AFAIR signed off by the stake holders, but it is not yet fully funded.


As usual, your information is spot-on. I still won't be surprised if we see pre-clearance in Toronto Union for a non-stop-to-the-border Maple Leaf before Montreal gets their act together. I know you disagree on this, but the impending bustitution on the Canadian side of this route will be a test of VIA's longevity in the Niagara Falls market. Once GO achieves 4x daily VIA could exit the route and the Maple Leaf could very well run sealed.


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## jiml (Aug 20, 2019)

PRR 60 said:


> At least as far as Ireland is concerned (DUB and SNN), pre-clearance is full pre-clearance - immigration and customs. USA Arrivals from DUB and SNN are treated as domestic arrivals. Luggage checked through a USA connection is not claimed until the final destination.


I last flew from DUB on AA about 5 years ago. Cleared US Immigration there, but Customs was in Chicago. An AA representative ushered passengers past the initial set of booths in ORD, but we had to present our forms and discuss baggage content with Customs inspectors before proceeding to connections or baggage claim.


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## PVD (Aug 20, 2019)

Full pre clearance from Canada at the airports is different than overseas. It has allowed baggage to be inspected and planes to fly to airports that don't regularly do Customs inspections for scheduled passenger flights. Toronto and Montreal to LaGuardia, your bags are inspected by US Customs allowed by treaty to work in Canada.


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## PRR 60 (Aug 20, 2019)

jiml said:


> I last flew from DUB on AA about 5 years ago. Cleared US Immigration there, but Customs was in Chicago. An AA representative ushered passengers past the initial set of booths in ORD, but we had to present our forms and discuss baggage content with Customs inspectors before proceeding to connections or baggage claim.



DUB Airport Pre-clearance
Aer Lingus


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## jiml (Aug 20, 2019)

PVD said:


> Full pre clearance from Canada at the airports is different than overseas. It has allowed baggage to be inspected and planes to fly to airports that don't regularly do Customs inspections for scheduled passenger flights. Toronto and Montreal to LaGuardia, your bags are inspected by US Customs allowed by treaty to work in Canada.


That has certainly been my understanding. Not every Canadian airport has pre-clearance either.


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## jiml (Aug 20, 2019)

PRR 60 said:


> DUB Airport Pre-clearance
> Aer Lingus


I'm not doubting you; just stating the case on my last flight - 5 years ago, and we were on the seasonal AA service - not Aer Lingus (who may be footing the bill for the service).


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## PRR 60 (Aug 20, 2019)

jiml said:


> I'm not doubting you; just stating the case on my last flight - 5 years ago, and we were on the seasonal AA service - not Aer Lingus (who may be footing the bill for the service).



I'm not doubting your experience 5 years ago, but simply stating that today full USA pre-clearance is offered at DUB and SNN with no need for a stop at customs inspection upon arrival in the USA. It is the same pre-clearance provided at select Canadian airports. All USA bound flights at DUB receive full pre-clearance except Ethiopian (ET) non-stops to LAX (due to terminal used at DUB) - now canceled.


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## Anthony V (Aug 20, 2019)

This good news should also help with getting service restored between Chicago, Detroit, and Toronto.


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## railiner (Aug 20, 2019)

jiml said:


> As usual, your information is spot-on. I still won't be surprised if we see pre-clearance in Toronto Union for a non-stop-to-the-border Maple Leaf before Montreal gets their act together. I know you disagree on this, but the impending bustitution on the Canadian side of this route will be a test of VIA's longevity in the Niagara Falls market. Once GO achieves 4x daily VIA could exit the route and the Maple Leaf could very well run sealed.


What's this? First time I've heard of this...are you saying, VIA Rail will no longer participate in the operation of the Maple Leaf? That it will become an all-Amtrak train?


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## dogbert617 (Aug 21, 2019)

jiml said:


> I last flew from DUB on AA about 5 years ago. Cleared US Immigration there, but Customs was in Chicago. An AA representative ushered passengers past the initial set of booths in ORD, but we had to present our forms and discuss baggage content with Customs inspectors before proceeding to connections or baggage claim.



They made you do the discussion about baggage content in Chicago O'Hare, and not over at the Dublin airport preclearance facility before boarding your plane? Since I flew into Ireland via Dublin and back via Dublin in 2017, and all the customs stuff was done over at the Dublin US customs preclearance facility, before you waited in that special terminal area to board your plane. And that once we landed in the US at O'Hare, it was nice not having to go through US customs, and be able to go straight to baggage claim.

Hopefully this agreement, really does mean that finally the Montreal Amtrak/VIA combined station will finally get a preclearance facility.


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## jis (Aug 21, 2019)

https://vtdigger.org/2019/08/15/preclearance-issues-extend-wait-for-rail-service-to-montreal/


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 21, 2019)

railiner said:


> What's this? First time I've heard of this...are you saying, VIA Rail will no longer participate in the operation of the Maple Leaf? That it will become an all-Amtrak train?



Well, since there are currently no plans for a pre-clearance facility in Toronto, I wouldn't place any bets on it happening soon. But, if GO Transit does increase service year round Toronto-Niagara Falls, I guess VIA might want to exit the market. But of course, that could mean a transfer between Amtrak and GO at Niagara Falls, Ont., or a bus transfer from New York to Ontario. Be careful of what you wish for.


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## jiml (Aug 21, 2019)

railiner said:


> What's this? First time I've heard of this...are you saying, VIA Rail will no longer participate in the operation of the Maple Leaf? That it will become an all-Amtrak train?


There's been considerable speculation on this subject in this and other forums over the past year or so. In fact jis and I have a different perspective on what's actually going to happen. It is just speculation, but based on some facts:
1. GO Transit (Toronto regional commuter rail) has been eyeing the Toronto - Niagara Falls, ON route for some time and are slowly ramping up their service. They recently announced the seasonal service going to year-round. Once they reach their objective of 4 frequencies daily, one of which is very close to the Maple Leaf times and serves the same stations between Hamilton and Niagara Falls, what is VIA's reason for participating? Who will buy a local VIA ticket for twice as much?
2. The never-ending Toronto Union Station reconstruction did at one time include an "office" for US CBP, leading to speculation that either the Maple Leaf would be pre-cleared or some other international service would be started or restored. Like the current Montreal stalemate there were money issues and the lack of nearby US agents to staff whatever. The original proposal was that they would come from nearby Billy Bishop Airport, who at the time were seeking to add pre-clearance for US-bound flights. This did not happen, however the advent of the Union-Pearson express train created a new window where it would be practical for US CBP to attend for an hour or so twice a day.
3. Until a few years ago VIA used to have two daily frequencies in the Niagara Falls market, one run solely as a VIA train. The "beginning of the end" for that train can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Burlington_VIA_derailment. It was cancelled and they focused on the combined train with Amtrak. If there was money to be made or service to be provided why is this the case? There is frequent bus service on the route, provided by GO Transit and others, and once GO is fully active in the train market, why continue with the Maple Leaf?
4. The final "nail in the coffin" for VIA on this route may be the upcoming bustitution between Toronto and the US side, with no intervening stops in Canada. I have no numbers to back up ridership, but seriously doubt there is much demand for tickets from Grimsby or St. Catherines to anywhere in New York state anyway. This should be a true test of that.

Therefore, if GO replaces the local service on the Canadian side of the border - which will happen, and VIA exits the picture, is it not reasonable to expect that Amtrak will either permanently truncate the Maple Leaf at Niagara Falls or try for pre-clearance in Toronto and a non-stop run to the border? I outlined in another thread where either option makes sense and with proper co-ordination of new GO Transit frequencies with existing Amtrak Empire services, it opens the possibility of selling 3 trains a day between Toronto and New York. Painting that picture is a good way to disguise changes to or cancellation of the existing service.


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## jiml (Aug 21, 2019)

dogbert617 said:


> They made you do the discussion about baggage content in Chicago O'Hare, and not over at the Dublin airport preclearance facility before boarding your plane?


Absolutely, and we were joined by passengers from the Aruba flight, which also supposedly had pre-clearance. We (and they) thought everyone had completed the formalities before boarding the plane, but should have realized when customs forms were handed out shortly before arrival in ORD. The subject was covered on the Flyertalk website frequently back then, but pre-dates the AA merger with US Air which makes references difficult to find. This was also during a rough period in the relationship between AA and Aer Lingus, which meant no lounge access in DUB.


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## jis (Aug 21, 2019)

A proposed privately run Montrealer....

https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...ight-train-service-between-montreal-and-n-y-c


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## jis (Aug 21, 2019)

jiml said:


> Therefore, if GO replaces the local service on the Canadian side of the border - which will happen, and VIA exits the picture, is it not reasonable to expect that Amtrak will either permanently truncate the Maple Leaf at Niagara Falls or try for pre-clearance in Toronto and a non-stop run to the border? I outlined in another thread where either option makes sense and with proper co-ordination of new GO Transit frequencies with existing Amtrak Empire services, it opens the possibility of selling 3 trains a day between Toronto and New York. Painting that picture is a good way to disguise changes to or cancellation of the existing service.


My take is that it is not reasonable to expect Amtrak to pick up the cost of a train that is currently funded by NY State and VIA, and it is a stretch to believe that NY State will pick up the cost of operating a train in Canada when the money could be used for adding one more West of Albany train, if it was available. As a matter of fact unless the Amtrak funding law is changed Amtrak cannot legally fund such a thing itself. It has to find the funding from the states that are beneficiary of such service.

Of course, anything can happen and there could be some new way of finding the funds for this sort of thing. But it is unlikely to happen without some very drastic changes at Amtrak and existing CFR, and within what appears to be coming down the pike in the next Authorization.

One possibility is private funding, something along the lines of this proposal for a Montreal to New York overnight service:

https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...ight-train-service-between-montreal-and-n-y-c

Though getting all stakeholders on board is going to be an interesting exercise.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 21, 2019)

I’ve thought an overnight TRTO-NYP service would be a real winner. Especially if you make it a section of a Revived Ohio State Limited from Cincinnati. I think there would be serious support for such a service.


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## jiml (Aug 21, 2019)

jis said:


> My take is that it is not reasonable to expect Amtrak to pick up the cost of a train that is currently funded by NY State and VIA, and it is a stretch to believe that NY State will pick up the cost of operating a train in Canada when the money could be used for adding one more West of Albany train, if it was available. As a matter of fact unless the Amtrak funding law is changed Amtrak cannot legally fund such a thing itself. It has to find the funding from the states that are beneficiary of such service.


With apologies in advance for using a double negative, I don't disagree with you. What you are saying makes total sense. That is why while my heart hopes for a non-stop-to-the-border Maple Leaf, my head tells me Amtrak will truncate it on the US side and it will just become one of the Niagara Falls, NY - NYP daily trains. Even if the bridge repairs are completed on-time (unlikely - especially if the contractor is the same one currently working on the Peace Bridge downstream), the period with no stops in Canada is going to factor into the final decision. I would love to know what the ridership is for VIA local service on this route, i.e. those not crossing the border. Looking at the follow-up on the wreck of 2012, there were 75 people on that train. What's that - 1 1/2 buses? What is VIA's incentive for continuing to participate with the Maple Leaf? They work under similar objectives to Amtrak - not profitability, but not going out of the way to lose money either. Therefore, isn't an ideal resolution to have 3 GO Trains meet 3 Amtrak trains across the river a good result for everyone? Heck, even an enclosed walkway on the lower level of the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge would work.


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## jiml (Aug 21, 2019)

jis said:


> A proposed privately run Montrealer....
> 
> https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...ight-train-service-between-montreal-and-n-y-c


Interesting. Two thoughts: Why not just negotiate with Amtrak to reinstate the Montrealer? The money available could be used to subsidize the project, not unlike state funding. Secondly, why even talk to CP? Much more effective to reinstate old CN route. (Of course, CN is already holding that up in Montrealer discussions.) I'm just not seeing Amtrak wanting to hook additional cars to an existing Empire Service train at Albany. Extra locomotive? Delays? Platform length on Empire tracks at NYP? The list of roadblocks might be pretty long...


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## jiml (Aug 21, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> I’ve thought an overnight TRTO-NYP service would be a real winner. Especially if you make it a section of a Revived Ohio State Limited from Cincinnati. I think there would be serious support for such a service.


The NYC-bound version works pretty well with the old timetable, assuming the two sections would be connected at Depew. Not sure about the Toronto-bound section unless there was a later departure out of New York or sleeper could be occupied until early morning in Toronto Union. Having worked overnight for many years in the vicinity, it's not the most hospitable area at 3 am. Not unsafe, just not "welcoming" and lacking services.


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## velotrain (Aug 21, 2019)

VTDigger: "Once the facility is built in Montreal, passengers heading north can board the train at any stop until St. Albans and will be processed by Canadian customs upon arrival."

Who is responsible for returning any passengers rejected in Montreal to the U.S.? Or, will Canada hold them temporarily if there is a possibility of resolving the situation within a short period?
Or, will the need to enter travel document data when buying an online ticket be regarded as sufficient?
Are people buying tickets in person at a station required to show "right of passage" before making the purchase?

What is the reason for thinking that the process would be any shorter than it is now for everyone, while those at the front of the train/exiting first could likely get through more quickly?
Is there data from similar transitions, not necessarily train related?
The difference would seem to be that once cleared there's no need to wait for everyone else and the train to start moving again.

Wouldn't this actually be post-clearance vs. pre-clearance for those heading north?


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## velotrain (Aug 21, 2019)

jiml said:


> until early morning in Toronto Union. Having worked overnight for many years in the vicinity, it's not the most hospitable area at 3 am. Not unsafe, just not "welcoming" and lacking services.



Sounds much like Depew at any hour!

While in Toronto two weeks ago I was told the Tim Hortons on York (a few blocks away) is open 24 hours.


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 22, 2019)

jiml said:


> The NYC-bound version works pretty well with the old timetable, assuming the two sections would be connected at Depew. Not sure about the Toronto-bound section unless there was a later departure out of New York or sleeper could be occupied until early morning in Toronto Union. Having worked overnight for many years in the vicinity, it's not the most hospitable area at 3 am. Not unsafe, just not "welcoming" and lacking services.



Sounds similar to the ‘Niagara Rainbow’ that ran on weekends overnight between New York and Toronto for a couple of years in the mid ‘90s. It was combined with a VIA train from the border to Toronto.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19950611n&item=0010


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 22, 2019)

Once all-day GO Train service is established at Niagara Falls, Ontario VIA should exit that market…..and really no need for Amtrak to then run a ‘sealed’ Maple Leaf to Toronto.

When the new station in NF NY was constructed there were provisions made for Canada’s CBSA to work there also preclearing those bound for Toronto.

My thoughts…..GO would cross the bridge to NF NY. GO passengers would clear US CBP then board an Empire Service train to continue on. In reverse: Amtrak passengers pre-clear CBSA on the US side then board a GO train for Toronto.

Rejig the timetable and you could probably offer a couple of services a day each way connecting at the NF NY station.

One problem I do see with GO operating to NF NY: A short section of low-level platform would be required due to the type of car GO uses.


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## jiml (Aug 22, 2019)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Once all-day GO Train service is established at Niagara Falls, Ontario VIA should exit that market…..and really no need for Amtrak to then run a ‘sealed’ Maple Leaf to Toronto.
> 
> When the new station in NF NY was constructed there were provisions made for Canada’s CBSA to work there also preclearing those bound for Toronto.
> 
> ...


Makes perfect sense to me. The platform issue could be worked around in the shorter term by simply using the new handicapped cars, which have the ramp to the raised platforms at the same height. All US-bound passengers would exit only from those cars, with another benefit being crowd flow control to the checkpoint. GO is already looking at café options too, for this and other long routes (Barrie, Hamilton and the Bowmanville extension). It's seen as a potential revenue source. Once resolved it would position them to bid for VIA's routes in Southwestern Ontario, as proposed by the current provincial government some time ago. Who knows? Perhaps if everything came together at Niagara Falls as you suggest, they get some food service and cross-border experience, they might be well-positioned to do the same with Detroit - the subject of other threads here and on Railroad.net.


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## jiml (Aug 22, 2019)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Sounds similar to the ‘Niagara Rainbow’ that ran on weekends overnight between New York and Toronto for a couple of years in the mid ‘90s. It was combined with a VIA train from the border to Toronto.
> 
> http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19950611n&item=0010


I wasn't aware the slumbercoach actually went all the way to Toronto. I had thought there was a bus or cross-platform connection involved.

What's even better on the portion of the timetable you've posted, is the reminder how the Adirondack went all the way to Washington, reversing direction in Penn Station. While this was cold comfort for the cancellation of the Montrealer, it did retain that market that is still being discussed today. Was that train the last stand of the Amtrak Rohr turbos? I know they served that route and would have been ideal for the reverse move, but can't remember if they lasted that long.


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## railiner (Aug 22, 2019)

MikefromCrete said:


> Well, since there are currently no plans for a pre-clearance facility in Toronto, I wouldn't place any bets on it happening soon. But, if GO Transit does increase service year round Toronto-Niagara Falls, I guess VIA might want to exit the market. But of course, that could mean a transfer between Amtrak and GO at Niagara Falls, Ont., or a bus transfer from New York to Ontario. Be careful of what you wish for.


Or...it could just continue as before, with GO Transit as the Canadian operato


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 22, 2019)

I don't think a transit agency would want to get into the intercity business.


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## railiner (Aug 22, 2019)

If passengers are required to change trains at the border, I’m afraid they will lose some more business to buses providing a “one-seat ride”...especially on overnight trips...


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## jiml (Aug 22, 2019)

MikefromCrete said:


> I don't think a transit agency would want to get into the intercity business.


GO is already in the intercity business.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 22, 2019)

railiner said:


> If passengers are required to change trains at the border, I’m afraid they will lose some more business to buses providing a “one-seat ride”...especially on overnight trips...


The current service isn't exactly a "one-seat ride." You and all your luggage have to get off at the border anyway for your little chat with CBSA or CBP. Not much difference between reboarding the original train or boarding a different connecting train. I imagine that bus passengers have to get off at the border, too, and deal with the formalities.


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## JP1822 (Aug 23, 2019)

The Niagara Rainbow and Montrealer are two overnight trains I wish were still around. With a little tweaking in their schedule, they really could have been a nice "hotel on wheels" type of train, and perhaps more tolerable with the "new and contemporary" meal program. Leaving NYC to arrive in upstate Vermont or Montreal early morning for the weekend was great. I don't ever remember a "full diner" on the Montrealer, but I do remember breakfast being substantial enough. Only did the Niagara Rainbow a couple of times, but now this train could be a nice overnight train from upstate to downstate in NYC even. Again, I'd tweak the schedule that is provided in the link above to try and hit some stops late evening or just after midnight, with arrival into NYC still at 7 am so if transfer was needed to DC it would be possible to make it to DC before 12 noon. 

Does anyone remember what was used for a dining car on the Montrealer? It was the Le Pub for a while, but I forget what it was towards the end of the Montrealer's life - just an Amfleet cafe car with some sort of breakfast included with sleeper fare?


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## JP1822 (Aug 23, 2019)

The Niagara Rainbow ONLY operated with a slumbercoach when re-launched in the 1990s?

I say re-launched as if memory serves me correct, the Niagara Rainbow was a daily train and on a variation of overnight/day train operating through upstate NY and through to Detroit, Ohio, and Michigan.


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## railiner (Aug 24, 2019)

JP1822 said:


> The Niagara Rainbow ONLY operated with a slumbercoach when re-launched in the 1990s?
> 
> I say re-launched as if memory serves me correct, the Niagara Rainbow was a daily train and on a variation of overnight/day train operating through upstate NY and through to Detroit, Ohio, and Michigan.


The Niagara Rainbow, when it was a New York/Detroit train, did not serve Ohio... it ran through Ontario.


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## jiml (Aug 24, 2019)

JP1822 said:


> The Niagara Rainbow and Montrealer are two overnight trains I wish were still around. With a little tweaking in their schedule, they really could have been a nice "hotel on wheels" type of train, and perhaps more tolerable with the "new and contemporary" meal program. Leaving NYC to arrive in upstate Vermont or Montreal early morning for the weekend was great. I don't ever remember a "full diner" on the Montrealer, but I do remember breakfast being substantial enough. Only did the Niagara Rainbow a couple of times, but now this train could be a nice overnight train from upstate to downstate in NYC even. Again, I'd tweak the schedule that is provided in the link above to try and hit some stops late evening or just after midnight, with arrival into NYC still at 7 am so if transfer was needed to DC it would be possible to make it to DC before 12 noon.
> 
> Does anyone remember what was used for a dining car on the Montrealer? It was the Le Pub for a while, but I forget what it was towards the end of the Montrealer's life - just an Amfleet cafe car with some sort of breakfast included with sleeper fare?


There were several iterations of the Niagara Rainbow name on various trains. In addition to the one mentioned serving Toronto, there were also two versions of the NY to Detroit train above - one that ran sealed through Ontario and one that made stops. There was also at least one Empire Service train bearing the name that never crossed the border.

As for the Montrealer, I only rode it a total of 4 times. All of those trips had a standard Amtrak Heritage dining car with full service - no unique variations, pub or otherwise. On two occasions we were continuing on or coming from Silver services to Florida, making the comparison easy. If reinstated today however, it would certainly be a logical candidate for reduced or contemporary dining service.


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## jloewen (Aug 24, 2019)

jiml said:


> There were several iterations of the Niagara Rainbow name on various trains. In addition to the one mentioned serving Toronto, there were also two versions of the NY to Detroit train above - one that ran sealed through Ontario and one that made stops. There was also at least one Empire Service train bearing the name that never crossed the border.
> 
> As for the Montrealer, I only rode it a total of 4 times. All of those trips had a standard Amtrak Heritage dining car with full service - no unique variations, pub or otherwise. On two occasions we were continuing on or coming from Silver services to Florida, making the comparison easy. If reinstated today however, it would certainly be a logical candidate for reduced or contemporary dining service.


The Montrealer had a unique "piano bar." Probably it was the snack car, and it had a small upright piano. Altho I once rode to Essex Junction with a member of Phish, I don't recall anyone ever PLAYING the piano.
Also, on one occasion I got on hungry, c. 9:15PM, in EJ en route to DC, and asked the SCA what I could eat, and he brought me a splendid fruit plate.


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## jis (Aug 24, 2019)

The Detroit service started as the _Empire State Express_ in 1974. It was renamed the _Niagara Rainbow_ in 1976. The _Lake Shore Limited_ in a more permanent form was instituted in the same year. Oddly, the train named _Niagara Rainbow_ at this point did not serve Niagara Falls.

In October 1978 the _Niagara Rainbow_ finally started calling at Niagara Falls on its way to Detroit. The trackage on which this train ran from Niagara Falls NY to Canada is apparently gone now.

Incidentally, at this time in 1978, both the _Lake Shore_ and the _Niagara Rainbow_ still called at Buffalo Central Terminal. In addition, the _Niagara Rainbow_ called at Buffalo Exchange Street. Buffalo Exchange Street was shown as the main Buffalo Station.

The Niagara Falls - Detroit segment of the _Niagara Rainbow_ was discontinued in January 1979 as both Michigan and New York withdrew financial support for it. Then US SecDOT Brock Adams who presided over the first major carnage of the Amtrak LD route system wanted to run the _Lake Shore_ through Canada at that time, but I suppose Congress had had enough of him by then and barred him from doing so.

Amtrak did run a weekly overnight train named the _Niagara Rainbow_ between New York and Toronto for about a year starting 1994, departing New York on Friday and departing Toronto on Sunday. Oddly enough, it was set up to enhance tourism in Toronto and not the other way round! The only sleeping accommodation on this train was a Slumbercoach.

To provide some further context around the subject of Toronto Canada service from the US, The _Maple Leaf_ started operating in 1981 and was considered to be an immediate success. It was made possible by Canada (VIA) operating it as their train in Canada thus not requiring any support from US tax payers for the run through Canada.

The Chicago - Toronto _International Limited_ was started in October 1982, and renamed the International sometime in 1983. Due to a series of issues starting with US CBP intransigence after 9/11 and ending with SARs outbreak in Toronto, ridership plummeted and it was finally discontinued, or rather split up into two trains, one in the US (_Blue Water_) and the other in Canada (VIA _Corridor Service_), and a planned connecting bus between the two was never implemented.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 24, 2019)

One of the Montrealer’s lePub cars is preserved at the Tennessee Central Railway Museum in Nashville. Complete with its LePub interior. The electric piano is there however three hours of attempting to get it to work I was never able to manage it.


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## jis (Aug 24, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> One of the Montrealer’s lePub cars is preserved at the Tennessee Central Railway Museum in Nashville. Complete with its LePub interior. The electric piano is there however three hours of attempting to get it to work I was never able to manage it.


I have had some truly memorable times in one of those LePubs. Both alcohol and women were involved.


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## railiner (Aug 24, 2019)

IIRC, at times the Montrealer featured both a full heritage diner, and the Le Pub lounge. I have also been aboard when the passenger's "partied hardy", especially on Friday night trips. I also recall there being a paid piano player at times, and volunteer passenger performances other's.
And...one more thing...I believe there was at some time a thru Montreal/Miami 10-6 sleeper conveyed to one of the Florida trains at WAS.


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 25, 2019)

Here’s a Montrealer consist from May 1974

257 E8A
256 E8A
1409 Baggage Dorm
Sleeper Everglades
Sleeper (CP Rail**) Chateau Richelieu
Sleeper (CP Rail**) Chateau Lauzon
8301 Diner-Lounge
3301 Le Pub
5803 Coach
4575 Coach
5287 Coach
5283 Coach

**Amtrak leased CP Rail Sleepers (this was 2 years before anyone had even heard of VIA).....and used them on the Montrealer, Broadway and Florida trains.


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 25, 2019)

jis said:


> To provide some further context around the subject of Toronto Canada service from the US, The _Maple Leaf_ started operating in 1981 and was considered to be an immediate success. It was made possible by Canada (VIA) operating it as their train in Canada thus not requiring any support from US tax payers for the run through Canada.




On Amtrak Day, May 1, 1971 there was still a Buffalo-Toronto service... jointly operated by Penn Central**, TH&B, CP Rail. (**Yes, Penn Central was still in the intercity passenger business besides commuter trains) It used CP RDC ‘Dayliner’ equipment. After VIA took over from CP Rail and Conrail from Penn Central….it was then a jointly operated Conrail-VIA train and lasted until the Maple Leaf was inaugurated in '81.


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## railiner (Aug 25, 2019)

And it directly served Hamilton too, IIRC?


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## jis (Aug 25, 2019)

NS VIA Fan said:


> On Amtrak Day, May 1, 1971 there was still a Buffalo-Toronto service... jointly operated by Penn Central**, TH&B, CP Rail. (**Yes, Penn Central was still in the intercity passenger business besides commuter trains) It used CP RDC ‘Dayliner’ equipment. After VIA took over from CP Rail and Conrail from Penn Central….it was then a jointly operated Conrail-VIA train and lasted until the Maple Leaf was inaugurated in '81.


Yes. Amtrak advertised that connection though did not always provide a timetable for it.


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 25, 2019)

railiner said:


> And it directly served Hamilton too, IIRC?


Yes, at the TH&B Station downtown. Now the nicely restored and busy GO Centre.


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## railiner (Aug 25, 2019)

jis said:


> Yes. Amtrak advertised that connection though did not always provide a timetable for it.


Penn Central did...although you might have to go to Buffalo to get a copy of the single sheet printing. They also included it in their “East/West” TT, while that lasted.
PC was actually very good about producing timetables for all their various passenger trains, as long as they ran them. And Conrail as well. I have sheets for the Valpo and Crown Point locals, as well as the Cleveland/Youngstown and Pittsburgh/College locals...


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## jiml (Aug 25, 2019)

railiner said:


> IIRC, at times the Montrealer featured both a full heritage diner, and the Le Pub lounge. I have also been aboard when the passenger's "partied hardy", especially on Friday night trips. I also recall there being a paid piano player at times, and volunteer passenger performances other's.
> And...one more thing...I believe there was at some time a thru Montreal/Miami 10-6 sleeper conveyed to one of the Florida trains at WAS.


Unfortunately I was accompanied by small children at the times I travelled, so never made it to the bar. We were in a standard Amtrak 10-6 sleeper every time. I do recall a through sleeper, but it either didn't work for us or wasn't offered at the time. One notable memory on a northbound Montrealer connecting from Florida, was a wonderful woman who was the "onboard chief" (if I recall the correct title of the day). She took my young daughter on a tour of the entire train (making dad jealous) and they returned with snacks from the café car. My daughter talked about it for years afterwards.


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## jiml (Aug 25, 2019)

NS VIA Fan said:


> On Amtrak Day, May 1, 1971 there was still a Buffalo-Toronto service... jointly operated by Penn Central**, TH&B, CP Rail. (**Yes, Penn Central was still in the intercity passenger business besides commuter trains) It used CP RDC ‘Dayliner’ equipment. After VIA took over from CP Rail and Conrail from Penn Central….it was then a jointly operated Conrail-VIA train and lasted until the Maple Leaf was inaugurated in '81.


Nice shot. I have a print of the Larry Fisher painting of the reverse angle of Hamilton station in the 50's hanging in my home. As a child my first "long-distance" train ride was from Toronto to Hamilton and back. Lots of memories associated with that station. Now it and points even further away are commuter runs.


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 26, 2019)

Here’s the schedule in the Oct 1975 CP Rail Timetable for the jointly operated CP-TH&B-Penn Central train: 







And the jointly operated VIA-Conrail train from Oct 1979.


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 26, 2019)

jiml said:


> There were several iterations of the Niagara Rainbow name on various trains. In addition to the one mentioned serving Toronto, there were also two versions of the NY to Detroit train above - one that ran sealed through Ontario and one that made stops.



I rode the Niagara Rainbow from Detroit to Fort Erie, Ontario in November 1977. Canada Customs came aboard in Windsor and asked me a couple of questions as I was getting off in Fort Erie, but I don’t believe Americans “just passing through” were even inspected......probably just a head-count. We had to remain in the last car and I remember that the attendant from the snack car would come back every so often to take our food orders. I got off in Fort Erie but anyone in that last car who got on in Canada would have been inspected by US officials in Black Rock.





And since I had already cleared customs in Windsor….I could get off for a picture in St. Thomas ON.





I believe the this was the only train where you buy an Amtrak ticket and ride between two Canadian stations. I remember the CTC (Canadian Transport Commission) was reluctant to grant this authority as they felt it would open up a case for Amtrak to apply for a subsidy to operate the service. The only other Amtrak timetable I can find without restrictions on stops in Canada is for the original ‘Pacific International’ with stops at New Westminster and White Rock BC. Don’t know if you could actually ride between there and Vancouver:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19721029&item=0057


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## jiml (Aug 26, 2019)

Ah, the days when crossing the border was often little more than a friendly greeting in either direction. Then when "cross-border shopping" for Canadians became an issue, the fear was of Canadian Customs catching that you'd brought back too much stuff. Before the first free-trade agreement the exemptions were so low there would often be a long line of returning Canadians emptying their cars at the checkpoint. Of course terror threats and the recent spate of new tariffs has done away with most of the good will in both directions.

The best was crossing on the train. Until the current nonsense on the Maple Leaf started I had probably done dozens in both directions on a train, including the Montrealer, Maple Leaf and International. I regret never doing any of the "Rainbows" but they didn't fit into travel plans.


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## jiml (Aug 26, 2019)

NS VIA Fan said:


> The only other Amtrak timetable I can find without restrictions on stops in Canada is for the original ‘Pacific International’ with stops at New Westminster and White Rock BC. Don’t know if you could actually ride between there and Vancouver:
> 
> http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19721029&item=0057


Was White Rock actually a passenger stop or simply the Customs location? Same for Blaine, WA?


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 26, 2019)

jiml said:


> Was White Rock actually a passenger stop or simply the Customs location? Same for Blaine, WA?



Don’t know. There’s nothing in the footnotes indicating it’s just a customs stop and you can't board there like today’s schedule for the Adirondack where it says Lacolle QC is not a passenger stop – customs only.


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## railiner (Aug 26, 2019)

Used to love to ride the Empire State Express, and later Niagara Rainbow between Buffalo and Detroit...
In the early years of Amtrak, prior to the Lake Shore starting operations, the only way to get from upstate NY to the west, without backtracking thru NYC, was "by way of Canada"...
The RDC to Toronto was the only link for awhile.

Prior to Amtrak, and before the Penn Central, the New York Central/Michigan Central ran a few thru New York / Chicago trains that way.
Some passenger's were probably not even aware that they traveled thru a "foreign country" enroute, and blissfully slept thru the two border crossing's undisturbed in those simpler times...no passport or even ID required...


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 26, 2019)

railiner said:


> Some passenger's were probably not even aware that they traveled thru a "foreign country" enroute, and blissfully slept thru the two border crossing's undisturbed in those simpler times...no passport or even ID required...



Click on this link to a previous post on border crossings (Oh those simpler times!):

https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/threads/timetable-nostalgia-customs-headaches.72883/#post-754014


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## Bostontoallpoints (Aug 26, 2019)

jis said:


> A proposed privately run Montrealer....
> 
> https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...ight-train-service-between-montreal-and-n-y-c


The same guy proposed a Boston to Montreal overnight train 4 years ago.

https://www.americaninno.com/boston...-proposal-francois-rebello-quebec-parliament/


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## jis (Aug 26, 2019)

Bostontoallpoints said:


> The same guy proposed a Boston to Montreal overnight train 4 years ago.
> 
> https://www.americaninno.com/boston...-proposal-francois-rebello-quebec-parliament/


Heh heh, maybe he is just in the relatively inexpensive business of proposing and getting press exposure.


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## Bostontoallpoints (Aug 26, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> One of the Montrealer’s lePub cars is preserved at the Tennessee Central Railway Museum in Nashville. Complete with its LePub interior. The electric piano is there however three hours of attempting to get it to work I was never able to manage it.


 Below is a copy of the Montrealer Diner menu.
https://picclick.com/Vintage-Montrealer-Amtrak-Train-Menu-133150063741.html


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 27, 2019)

Montrealer Menu after the train was HEPed and an Amdinette was providing the meal service:


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## jiml (Aug 27, 2019)

Other than the train being gone, this is a sad reminder of two things: the prices and Amtrak's switch to Pepsi.


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## jis (Aug 27, 2019)

https://m.timesunion.com/business/a...eding-cross-border-train-service-14367713.php


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## dogbert617 (Sep 12, 2019)

jiml said:


> Absolutely, and we were joined by passengers from the Aruba flight, which also supposedly had pre-clearance. We (and they) thought everyone had completed the formalities before boarding the plane, but should have realized when customs forms were handed out shortly before arrival in ORD. The subject was covered on the Flyertalk website frequently back then, but pre-dates the AA merger with US Air which makes references difficult to find. This was also during a rough period in the relationship between AA and Aer Lingus, which meant no lounge access in DUB.



I see. Too bad US Customs in Dublin didn't totally process your customs clearance while over there, and made you do it at O'Hare! Since I remember myself and my family got the customs process all totally done at Dublin's preclearance facility, before we boarded our plane back to the US when my family all did a 2017 trip.


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## drdumont (Sep 12, 2019)

jiml said:


> Other than the train being gone, this is a sad reminder of two things: the prices and Amtrak's switch to Pepsi.



I, too, deplore the lack of products other than Pepsi aboard. So I drink Jack Daniel's instead. No need for Diet or sugar free...


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## jiml (Sep 12, 2019)

drdumont said:


> I, too, deplore the lack of products other than Pepsi aboard. So I drink Jack Daniel's instead. No need for Diet or sugar free...


As a longtime Coke-aholic I have been known to make decisions based on its availability. I also have a great deal of respect for Jack's product, finding the two are best when mixed in perfect proportion. Fortunately both VIA Rail and my airline of choice are still Coke. My favorite hotel chain not so much.


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