# WI & OH Rail Projects Killed by US DOT



## PRR 60

Not waiting for the new governors to take office and stop the projects, US DOT Secretary LaHood has killed the High Speed Rail grants for Ohio and Wisconsin and has redirected the funds to a handful of other states.

From the Cleveland Plain Dealer, 12/9/2010:



> Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today that the federal government is redirecting nearly $400 million it had awarded to Ohio to build a high-speed rail project that would have linked Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati. As promised, the money will go to other states.
> ...Also losing its rail money is Wisconsin, which had been awarded more than $800 million.


The full story is HERE.


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## PRR 60

And this from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 12/9/2010:



> *Feds will pull, redistribute state's high-speed rail money* Wisconsin can keep only a fraction of the $810 million it won in federal high-speed rail money, while the rest will help fund train lines in California, Florida, Illinois and other states, the U.S. Department of Transportation announced Thursday.


That story is HERE.


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## Ryan

Can't say that was a move that I expected to see.

In the grand scheme of things, I think that it's an overall good thing and ensures the money will go where it'll be better utilized.


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## hippyman

Ryan said:


> Can't say that was a move that I expected to see.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, I think that it's an overall good thing and ensures the money will go where it'll be better utilized.



I know I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but, could those funds possibly be put to use re-establishing the sunset east?


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## Ryan

Nope.


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## Eric S

hippyman said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't say that was a move that I expected to see.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, I think that it's an overall good thing and ensures the money will go where it'll be better utilized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but, could those funds possibly be put to use re-establishing the sunset east?
Click to expand...

DEAD horse and moot point. It has already been announced where the funds will be redistributed.

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2010/dot20810.html

WI can keep $2 million, and 13 other states get portions of the rest of the approx $1.2 billion. The largest shares go to CA (over $600 million), FL (over $300 million), and WA (over $150 million).


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## Eric S

As much as I am disappointed that WI will not be seeing an extended _Hiawatha_ anytime soon now, I share *Ryan*'s belief that it is best the rail funding gets redistributed to states that are more receptive to intercity rail funding at this point. I am disapppinted how little funding stayed in the Midwest. I would have thought IL would have received a larger share and that MI would have received some funding.

I look forward to hearing more details about how the funds will be spent in the states that receive it.


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## Long Train Runnin'

Seems like a pretty big power play by Secretary LaHood. New York state didn't do so great. I wonder if the extra 600 million in California could be used to extended that first segment from nowhere to nowhere to maybe Fresno, and somewhere.


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## Gratt

Long Train Runnin said:


> Seems like a pretty big power play by Secretary LaHood. New York state didn't do so great. I wonder if the extra 600 million in California could be used to extended that first segment from nowhere to nowhere to maybe Fresno, and somewhere.


Yeah, that was the most shocking thing about the redistribution. Why did NY receive so little? Though my bet is because most of what they wanted to do was not "shovel ready" yet. I dont think the plan of adding another set of tracks to the Empire line has gone though the required environmental impact studies and the like.

In addition the fear that the new house might try to pull funding would lead all the more to picking projects that can use it faster.


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## ALC Rail Writer

Whatever I have to say about this issue would be censored by the boards... I am not pleased, in fact I might be a tad angry.


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## ALC Rail Writer

More than a tad.


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## ALC Rail Writer

Though technically speaking it isn't a done deal, just medium-well. Unless Strickland cancels the project LaHood can't pull the money until Jan. 13th-- the date the office changes hands. And Strickland will not be backing down.

I see this as a power play to force Wis. and Ohio's hands.


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## daveyb99

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> ... Unless Strickland cancels the project LaHood can't pull the money until Jan. 13th ...


Really? "Can't" REALLY? Like if LaHood does and your gov pulls a last minute 'just kidding' that that somehow is gonna trump LaHood. hahahhahahaha



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I see this as a power play to force Wis. and Ohio's hands.


I hope not. The President needs to take the fools at their word. "Don't want the $$$, then fine - its gone".

And that should go for ANY federal program.


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## eagle628

Indiana gets money? Every other state that recieved funding has some sort of state-supported rail in place, or will in the future, but Indiana, at least the government, AFAIK, couldn't care less about rail. So why do they get funds, and what's it going toward, even if it is only $360,000?


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## Devil's Advocate

Personally I'm fine with the money being taken back and redistributed to states that haven't voted in staunchly anti-rail politicians to speak for them. You elect a deceptive anti-rail blowhard, you lose your rail funding. Sounds about right to me. That's not to say the grassroots folks should stop their efforts. It may be too late to get the money back but that doesn't mean you can't make it sting like hell every time one of your ignorant politicians decides to take a **** on passenger rail.


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## Long Train Runnin'

I also feel like this puts a huge sting on the whole message of Mr. Walker's campaign since he was going to stop the train, and put the money into the highways, now that money looks like it will never make it to his state. That can't look to some voters.


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## AlanB

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Though technically speaking it isn't a done deal, just medium-well. Unless Strickland cancels the project LaHood can't pull the money until Jan. 13th-- the date the office changes hands. And Strickland will not be backing down.


The money isn't in Ohio's hands, it was only promised. And even then, they didn't have a Full Funding Agreement signed. That's an official promise to actually pay the monies to Ohio.

On the other hand, I believe that Wisconsin does have an FFA in place; I'm not sure if they got an FFA that weekend before the election or just permission to let all the contracts. That could make it a bit harder to just take away the money from them. I am however surprised that the Fed is leaving any money in place for Wisconsin, unless Mr. Walker has actually pledged to Mr. LaHood to spend that money on the Hiawatha service.


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## Trogdor

The problem I have with this is that it spreads the money a thousand different ways so that, in the end, each state will have about enough to buy a cup of coffee (provided they already have the cup).

That money should have been given to two or, at most, three states for the greatest visible impact.


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## rtabern

AlanB said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Though technically speaking it isn't a done deal, just medium-well. Unless Strickland cancels the project LaHood can't pull the money until Jan. 13th-- the date the office changes hands. And Strickland will not be backing down.
> 
> 
> 
> The money isn't in Ohio's hands, it was only promised. And even then, they didn't have a Full Funding Agreement signed. That's an official promise to actually pay the monies to Ohio.
> 
> On the other hand, I believe that Wisconsin does have an FFA in place; I'm not sure if they got an FFA that weekend before the election or just permission to let all the contracts. That could make it a bit harder to just take away the money from them. I am however surprised that the Fed is leaving any money in place for Wisconsin, unless Mr. Walker has actually pledged to Mr. LaHood to spend that money on the Hiawatha service.
Click to expand...

Alan, that is my understanding -- $2,000,000 will be used for the Hiawatha line from CHI-MKE.

I don't know what that will be for -- but my vote would be for adding crews to allow for an early morning train from MKE to CHI that would connect with #350,#381, and #391. And, an late night train leaving Chicago around 10:30PM that would allow connections with #304, #306, the late Michigan train, #382, and be a "clean up" train for LD passengers connecting on late trains from the west.

Also, a late night train would let us Milwaukee folks head down to Chicago for the day to catch dinner or a play or something. Right now, the last train out of CHI is 8:05PM, meaning no plays, musicals, or late dinners in CHI are possible.


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## PRR 60

rtabern said:


> Alan, that is my understanding -- $2,000,000 will be used for the Hiawatha line from CHI-MKE.
> 
> I don't know what that will be for -- but my vote would be for adding crews to allow for an early morning train from MKE to CHI that would connect with #350,#381, and #391. And, an late night train leaving Chicago around 10:30PM that would allow connections with #304, #306, #382, and be a "clean up" train for LD passengers connecting on late trains from the west.
> 
> Also, a late night train would let us Milwaukee folks head down to Chicago for the day to catch dinner or a play or something. Right now, the last train out of CHI is 8:05PM, meaning no plays, musicals, or late dinners in CHI are possible.


The $2 million is for improvements at the Milwaukee Airport station.


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## jis

Long Train Runnin said:


> Seems like a pretty big power play by Secretary LaHood. New York state didn't do so great. I wonder if the extra 600 million in California could be used to extended that first segment from nowhere to nowhere to maybe Fresno, and somewhere.


Why do people keep incessantly worrying about this nowhere to nowhere thing? Do they realize that the none of the French HSRs really begin or end at any big place but at far suburbs? The much vaunted LGV Nord Europa begins not in Paris but in a little village called Villiers-Le-Belle-Gonesse, a little beyond Charles De Gaulle Airport, which is way outside Paris. Access to big cities typically are via upgraded classic lines. The true high speed line for HS1 in UK actually begins at Ebbsfleet and not in London, though the line connecting Ebssfleet to St. Pancras is also a new line but lower speed. Typically it has always been the case that the HSR either begins or ends or both, in the middle of nowhere and then trains get to city center over upgraded classic line. The new high speed LGV Est ends in the middle of nowhere at a little place called Baudrecourt, from where three classic upgraded lines branch off to Nancy, Metz and Strasbourg.

So at least I would not worry about the first segment of CA HSR being built where it is, as long as it is connected into the network around there allowing trains to get to useful places. That is exactly the way it is at many of the most successful HSRs. In general worrying about that without taking a closer look at the plans is more indicative of ignorance of how these things work than a general major concern.


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## rtabern

I am just heartbroken that Wisconsin (and Ohio) is going to be left behind in all of this... its just crazy!! Walker is turning down $800,000,000 because he doesn't want to pay $750,000 a year for the upkeep of the rail line and operating costs? Just doesn't seem right to me. I hope he's happy the money is not going to Wisconsin at all now!!

I am glad Illinois is atleast getting some of the money... because I'm just 23 miles across the IL-WI state line and atleast the fast trains will be within DRIVING distance.


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## Hamhock

Say goodbye to Talgo, Wisconsin:



> Talgo Inc., the Spanish manufacturer of high speed train cars, will abandon its plant in Milwaukee in 2012, according to Nora Friend, a spokeswoman for the company.
> "We can't stay and manufacture in Milwaukee without the high-speed rail to Madison," Friend said. "This is terrible news."


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## Steve4031

I cannot think of a politician that I hate more than Walker. He is a disgusting, incompetent individual. I think they should have some sort of intelligence screening for politicians. This guy is a complete failure before he even enters office.


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## ALC Rail Writer

daveyb99 said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Unless Strickland cancels the project LaHood can't pull the money until Jan. 13th ...
> 
> 
> 
> Really? "Can't" REALLY? Like if LaHood does and your gov pulls a last minute 'just kidding' that that somehow is gonna trump LaHood. hahahhahahaha
> 
> 
> 
> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see this as a power play to force Wis. and Ohio's hands.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hope not. The President needs to take the fools at their word. "Don't want the $$$, then fine - its gone".
> 
> And that should go for ANY federal program.
Click to expand...

Look I'm not saying it's going to happen, but if by some miracle Kaisich or Walker changed their minds before the end of the year it's possible the decision will be reversed or otherwise altered so the states recieve money.


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## ALC Rail Writer

For Chrissakes Dax, will you stop blaming "the people" or "the voters", not everybody voted for Kaisich or Walker, and for those that did-- not all of them agreed with their decisions. The blame is theirs, and theirs alone. It is their decision.


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## Green Maned Lion

I have to applaud LaHood for his actions. The fact of the matter is, if they had let the states spend their HSR money on highway construction, that would have set a terrible precedent. Fortunately, he didn't.

I wish the lines were getting built, but I am happy they are going to states who want efficient transit, not idiots who think highways make sense.


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## ALC Rail Writer

They could never have built highways or done anything but what the money had been earmarked for-- I think that has been clear since day one.


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## ALC Rail Writer

Funny idea

Doubt it could work.


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## Devil's Advocate

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> For Chrissakes Dax, will you stop blaming "the people" or "the voters", not everybody voted for Kaisich or Walker, and for those that did-- not all of them agreed with their decisions. The blame is theirs, and theirs alone. It is their decision.


Of course I'm going to blame the voters who put these yahoos in office, who else would I blame? Your flailing deflections would only make sense if these politicians had carefully hidden their anti-rail agenda behind pro-rail propaganda, but in reality they were *extremely vocal* about their anti-rail positions. If it makes you feel any better my fellow Texans are every bit as ignorant as any Ohioan or Wisconsinite. We have the "patriotic secessionist" Rick Perry calling the shots over here. Better to take whatever money would be spent on Texas (I'm looking at you Beaumont) and give it to a true blue state that might actually do something useful with it.


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## sportbiker

Speaking as a CA resident, I'm more than happy to accept any monies other states don't want. Someone has to lead the way into the 21st century so it may as well be us. (Actually, we're entering the latter part of the 20th century, but that's a quibble.)

I read the extra money will be used to extend the first segment south toward Bakersfield.


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## frj1983

AlanB said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Though technically speaking it isn't a done deal, just medium-well. Unless Strickland cancels the project LaHood can't pull the money until Jan. 13th-- the date the office changes hands. And Strickland will not be backing down.
> 
> 
> 
> The money isn't in Ohio's hands, it was only promised. And even then, they didn't have a Full Funding Agreement signed. That's an official promise to actually pay the monies to Ohio.
> 
> On the other hand, I believe that Wisconsin does have an FFA in place; I'm not sure if they got an FFA that weekend before the election or just permission to let all the contracts. That could make it a bit harder to just take away the money from them. I am however surprised that the Fed is leaving any money in place for Wisconsin, unless Mr. Walker has actually pledged to Mr. LaHood to spend that money on the Hiawatha service.
Click to expand...


I saw Walker on TV last night and he said that he had talked with Secretary LaHood and that he had no problem with the money (2 million) going to the Hiawatha Line.


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## rile42

Kasich is now blaming Washington and the Democrats for the loss of the $400 million of Ohio's taxpayer's money to other states. Kasich and Kasich alone is to be blamed. He claims he wanted to use the money for other projects or return it to pay down the national debt. I can't believe he is that stupid to not know that was impossible. As recently as last week, his own people were saying the project would produce "only" 8000 jobs disputing the numbers touted by the 3-C proponents. But, 8000 jobs is 8000 jobs. And to think Kasich hammered Strickland during the campaign about job loss in this state. At least Strickland had somewhat of an excuse for the job losses...a deep recession. Kasich has no excuse for the 8000 lost jobs except his own ineptitude.

Kasich keeps stating that there were too many unanswered questions. He must not be able to read reports or visit states like North Carolina or Illinois where similar projects have been very successful.

Interestingly, next to the article in the Columbus Dispatch that reported the loss of the rail money was an article about recommendations from an ODOT committee about $167.7 million in new highway projects. According to projected figures, that amount of money would have subsidized the 3-C project for over 9 and a half years.

Worse, for those that might remember, the 3-C project was originally a Republican idea several years ago. Then again, that was before that group became so obstructionist.

To paraphrase a professor I had during graduate school at Xavier University, I don't hate Kasich but someday will read his obituary without regret.


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## ALC Rail Writer

daxomni said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> For Chrissakes Dax, will you stop blaming "the people" or "the voters", not everybody voted for Kaisich or Walker, and for those that did-- not all of them agreed with their decisions. The blame is theirs, and theirs alone. It is their decision.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I'm going to blame the voters who put these yahoos in office, who else would I blame? Your flailing deflections would only make sense if these politicians had carefully hidden their anti-rail agenda behind pro-rail propaganda, but in reality they were *extremely vocal* about their anti-rail positions. If it makes you feel any better my fellow Texans are every bit as ignorant as any Ohioan or Wisconsinite. We have the "patriotic secessionist" Rick Perry calling the shots over here. Better to take whatever money would be spent on Texas (I'm looking at you Beaumont) and give it to a true blue state that might actually do something useful with it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, your blame is misplacesd. Thanks to you I can blame you for everything Rick Perry does.

You live in Texas, Rick perry is elected by Texans, therefore Rick Perry is your responsibility.


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## Gratt

daxomni said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> For Chrissakes Dax, will you stop blaming "the people" or "the voters", not everybody voted for Kaisich or Walker, and for those that did-- not all of them agreed with their decisions. The blame is theirs, and theirs alone. It is their decision.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I'm going to blame the voters who put these yahoos in office, who else would I blame? Your flailing deflections would only make sense if these politicians had carefully hidden their anti-rail agenda behind pro-rail propaganda, but in reality they were *extremely vocal* about their anti-rail positions. If it makes you feel any better my fellow Texans are every bit as ignorant as any Ohioan or Wisconsinite. We have the "patriotic secessionist" Rick Perry calling the shots over here. Better to take whatever money would be spent on Texas (I'm looking at you Beaumont) and give it to a true blue state that might actually do something useful with it.
Click to expand...


In all fairness our Gov. Goodhair is not as bad as the Governors of OH and WI. He never said he was 100% against HSR, true he never raised a finger to support it but I bet if we had a few hundred million to spend on it I bet he would not try to block or divert it. The same is true if the Republican Legislature came up with a bill for supporting HSR. Remember also Sen. Hutchinson supports HSR in Texas.

Sadly though with a 20 billion dollar deficit in the next 2 year budget. I dont see a passenger rail bill of any kind till 2013 at least.


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## Ryan

From a rail perspective, you're probably right.

From a "who is more batshit insane" perspective, Gov. Secession probably takes the cake.


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## Devil's Advocate

rile42 said:


> Kasich is now blaming Washington and the Democrats for the loss of the $400 million of Ohio's taxpayer's money to other states.


Was anyone actually expecting any other outcome? :excl:



rile42 said:


> Kasich and Kasich alone is to be blamed.


Did Kasich stuff the ballot with 1.8 _million_ votes all by himself? If anyone's to be blamed its the voters who put him in office.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Thanks to you I can blame you for everything Rick Perry does.


Don't forget to include the other twenty-five million of us who made _The Rick Perry Show_ possible. :lol:



Gratt said:


> [Perry] never said he was 100% against HSR, true he never raised a finger to support it but I bet if we had a few hundred million to spend on it I bet he would not try to block or divert it. The same is true if the Republican Legislature came up with a bill for supporting HSR. Remember also Sen. Hutchinson supports HSR in Texas.


Sen Hutchinson might be a true passenger rail supporter, but she's also part of the old guard that is currently being cleansed from the GOP. Perry is a different animal entirely. He has sided with the proud-to-be-ignorant Palin wing of the party and there is nothing he won't say or do to win the votes of the delusional masses who love his arrogant rhetoric. I'm not saying he's stupid, I'm just saying he knows how to play Texans like a fiddle. Hutchinson knew how to bring in the money and how to appeal to yesterday's GOP but after taking on Perry she has a target painted on her back that will be hard to shake as her party eschews reason and logic in the search for cult-like purity.


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## George Harris

daxomni said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> For Chrissakes Dax, will you stop blaming "the people" or "the voters", not everybody voted for Kaisich or Walker, and for those that did-- not all of them agreed with their decisions. The blame is theirs, and theirs alone. It is their decision.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I'm going to blame the voters who put these yahoos in office, who else would I blame?
Click to expand...

Did it every occur to those of you getting their shorts in a knot that everyone that voted for the candidate that was not "pro rail" did so for reasons totally unrelated to the rail issue? There were many that wanted passenger systems that voted for the other candadate because that were were other aprts of the candidates views and objectives that trupmed his "pro rail" views. There are also those with long memories that recall pro rail candidates that reneged on or simply failed to deliver their train related promises while going full bore on ohter unrelated issues.


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## Devil's Advocate

George Harris said:


> Did it every occur to those of you getting their shorts in a knot...


Sorry George, but my shorts aren't in any knots about this. I'm *happy* with the outcome as the money will now be spent where it's wanted instead of being wasted on citizens who voted against it. What's to be upset about? Then again, I'm not one trying to defend my anti-rail voting record on a pro-rail forum. That must be difficult George, but it's not our fault if you painted yourself into an ideological corner.


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## ALC Rail Writer

daxomni said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did it every occur to those of you getting their shorts in a knot...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry George, but my shorts aren't in any knots about this. I'm *happy* with the outcome as the money will now be spent where it's wanted instead of being wasted on citizens who voted against it. What's to be upset about? Then again, I'm not one trying to defend my anti-rail voting record on a pro-rail forum. That must be difficult George, but it's not our fault if you painted yourself into an ideological corner.
Click to expand...

Right, so rail is wasted on me I guess.

And don't drag George down to your level, ye high n mighty. When's the last time you won an election?


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## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> I have to applaud LaHood for his actions. The fact of the matter is, if they had let the states spend their HSR money on highway construction, that would have set a terrible precedent. Fortunately, he didn't.
> 
> I wish the lines were getting built, but I am happy they are going to states who want efficient transit, not idiots who think highways make sense.


I agree. Though I believe LaHood's hands were really tied. He could not just decide to spend the money on something other than passenger rail without Congress actually passing a bill permitting such. i believe the original bill clearly says the purpose for which this money was to be spent, and did not give much leeway to the DoT to do otherwise.


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## ALC Rail Writer

Which is perfect. The only thing that doesn't work is that all of this is under executive power.

I sure wish that the decision didn't belong to Kasich, the Ohio Senate would have been better, or even a ballot issue.


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## AlanB

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I sure wish that the decision didn't belong to Kasich, the Ohio Senate would have been better, or even a ballot issue.


Except that even the Ohio Senate seems to have conveniently forgotten that they directed Governor Strickland to seek Federal funding.


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## ALC Rail Writer

That's true, they forgot they voted unanimously.


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## BigBlueBuddha

Question:

How can one person like Walker or Kasich make the decision to kill the HSR projects on their own? My understanding is that there were hundreds (or more) people involved in making the decisions to initiate and write the grant proposals in the first place at many levels of government. How can one person quash something that was begun long before the November elections? :huh:


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## PRR 60

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> Question:
> 
> How can one person like Walker or Kasich make the decision to kill the HSR projects on their own? My understanding is that there were hundreds (or more) people involved in making the decisions to initiate and write the grant proposals in the first place at many levels of government. How can one person quash something that was begun long before the November elections? :huh:


To be accurate, the projects were killed by the US DOT, not by either governor.

Both incoming governors pledged to stop the projects once they took office. To do that would have required the state legislatures to agree, either actively or passively. While it is possible that the legislatures might not have permitted the projects to be halted, and it is even possible that one or both of the incoming governors may have changed his mind, it was probable that sometime early next year both projects were going to be stopped by the states. However, neither state had formally cancelled the work. At this point it was only threats by the incoming governors.

With both state grants in jeopardy, Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood decided to act on his own and withdraw the grants now. He did that for purely political reasons. Come January, the new congress will be far less friendly to the administration than the existing congress. Although the grants for high speed rail had been appropriated, most of the funds for both Ohio and Wisconsin had not been legally committed in the sense that formal contracts had been executed and money was flowing (an embarrassed US DOT essentially said the contract secretly signed with Wisconsin the weekend before the election was null and void). If either or both states backed out, the funds allocated could be unappropriated by congress and used for some other unrelated purpose, or even just not spent at all. Cancellation by the states would not happen until sometime next year.

The administration did not want to wait until next year to deal with two states giving back $1.2 billion of HSR grants given the likelihood that their relationship with congress in 2011 may not be so amicable. That $1.2 billion could become a political football between the new congress and the administration. Yes, the President has veto power over congressional actions, but in the give and take world of a mixed-party government, the $1.2 billion could become a pawn and be taken in exchange for the administration getting something else. To prevent the possibility that congress could pull that $1.2 billion from the HSR program, they took the money from Ohio and Wisconsin without waiting for state cancellations (assuming both were a lost cause) and quickly redirected it to other states. They now want to get that $1.2 billion formally committed by contract to the other states as quickly as possible to prevent it from going into play with the next congress.

While the underlying reason the projects in both states were cancelled was the stance of both incoming governors, the actual cancellation was not an action taken by either state. It was a unilateral action taken by the US Department of Transportation and Secretary LaHood.


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## Devil's Advocate

Spoken like a compulsive revisionist.



PRR 60 said:


> With both state grants in jeopardy, Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood decided to act on his own and withdraw the grants now. He did that for purely political reasons.


LaHood merely *removed* the funding from the political football these two governors elect had intentionally turned it into. Considering that the projects were supposed to be creating jobs while building up our infrastructure and that this money wouldn't be doing any of that LaHood *did his job* and moved the money to states that would not be sitting on it wasting time telling their lazy and ignorant electorate that they could somehow redirect the funds to clearly disqualified uses. Our economy is hurting *now*, in case you hadn't noticed, and intentionally sitting on funds meant to bring more jobs today won't help anyone but a few manipulative politicians. It must be hard to see your party of choice do everything they can to mock and dismantle passenger rail funding even as you claim to support it, but blaming LaHood makes no sense in this context.


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## PRR 60

daxomni said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With both state grants in jeopardy, Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood decided to act on his own and withdraw the grants now. He did that for purely political reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoken like a true revisionist. LaHood merely *removed* the funding from the political football these two governors elect had intentionally turned it into. Considering that the projects were supposed to be creating jobs while building up our infrastructure and that this money wouldn't be doing any of that LaHood *did his job* and moved the money to states that would not be sitting on it wasting time telling their lazy and ignorant electorate that they could somehow redirect the funds to clearly disqualified uses. Our economy is hurting *now**[/i]** and sitting on funds meant to bring more jobs today won't help anyone but a few politicians. It must be hard to see your party of choice do everything they can to mock and dismantle passenger rail funding even as you claim to support it, but blaming LaHood makes no sense in this context.*
Click to expand...

*Where did I criticize Secretary LaHood? The actions he took kept the funding in the HSR program. Even if you think the HSR program is only a jobs program, jobs are jobs, no matter what state. Waiting until next year for the almost certain cancellation by the states would have jeopardized the continued use of the funds for rail. It was a smart move.*


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## Devil's Advocate

PRR 60 said:


> Where did I criticize Secretary LaHood? The actions he took kept the funding in the HSR program. Even if you thing the HSR program is only a jobs program, jobs are jobs, no matter what state. Waiting until next year for the almost certain cancellation by the states would have jeopardized the continued use of the funds for rail. It was a smart move.


You assigned the politics of the debate to LaHood, instead of the governors that had actually done all the politicizing. So far as I can tell LaHood wasn't politicizing anything so much as reacting to the new reality of the situation. Knowing that the GOP was going to blame the administration with or without the funds (as we now see) LaHood simply moved them to where they might do more good than just giving a few manipulative politicians a platform to rail against. If anything it sounds like he was _depoliticizing_ the situation to me.


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## BigBlueBuddha

daxomni said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I criticize Secretary LaHood? The actions he took kept the funding in the HSR program. Even if you thing the HSR program is only a jobs program, jobs are jobs, no matter what state. Waiting until next year for the almost certain cancellation by the states would have jeopardized the continued use of the funds for rail. It was a smart move.
> 
> 
> 
> You assigned the politics of the debate to LaHood, instead of the governors that had actually done all the politicizing. So far as I can tell LaHood wasn't politicizing anything so much as reacting to the new reality of the situation. Knowing that the GOP was going to blame the administration with or without the funds (as we now see) LaHood simply moved them to where they might do more good than just giving a few manipulative politicians a platform to rail against. If anything it sounds like he was _depoliticizing_ the situation to me.
Click to expand...

daxomni, I agree with your analysis.

By the way, here's your $200-->$200. I thought Walker would cave. Instead, he has steadfastly played the fool.

I can't remember the last time I have witnessed someone embracing such blatant ignorance and stupidity with a straight face. :wacko:

Is it just me, or does he always look like he's half-asleep?


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## Green Maned Lion

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> They could never have built highways or done anything but what the money had been earmarked for-- I think that has been clear since day one.


One never knows. What Congress earmarkeths, Congress can unearmarketh.



daxomni said:


> Did Kasich stuff the ballot with 1.8 _million_ votes all by himself? If anyone's to be blamed its the voters who put him in office.


Let me give you a choice of two candidates from two political parties.

Candidate Adolf H. Söhn of the MascuBovus Fecus party is strongly in support of: Rail, seggregation, the ku-klux-klan, and the extermination of all Italians, Jews, Muslims, Irish, Indians, Africans, and Albinos. He is against: Women's Sufferage, freedom of speech, and the silly idea of personal freedom.

Candidate M. L. King of the Mick E. Maus Party is strongly in support of: Freedom of speech, Freedom of religion, and having A. H. Sohn comitted to a mental institution. He is against bigotry and rail.

Which would you vote for?

Now logically follow this away from the extreme. Understand now, Dax?


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## Blackshirt Husker

This could be a good thing in the long-run IF the government sticks to its guns and redirects the money to other states as promised. It will then serve as a lesson and warning to other Republican incumbent governors (Branstadt in Iowa) that this ridiculous political posturing against Amtrak will not stand.

The money was not alloted for bridges, it was not alloted for roads, it was alloted for passenger rail expansion, PERIOD. Let the governors of Wisky and Ohio explain to their constituents that they turned down billions of dollars and countless new jobs because of partisan politics and their own arrogance.


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## Anderson

To be fair, Branstad _seems_ to be taking a reasonable tack on this. I can at least respect being jittery about having to match a nine-figure rail grant right now, but he hasn't killed anything yet (and yes, I know "yet" is the operative word). That said...Branstad's been around almost thirty years, and I think he's not the type to kill projects for the hell of it.

On another topic, there's a dog that didn't bark here which just bit me: It was more or less known that Walker was probably going to win (he'd been up in every poll for several months) and I don't think it was any secret he was anti-rail. I'd kinda like to know why Ray LaHood announced an appropriation under those circumstances _before_ the election. If anything, prudence ought to have dictated waiting until Nov. 8 or 9 and making some phone calls. I know, I know...some of this was election season "vote buying" in the form of timing an appropriation announcement, but still. In Ohio, I'll grant you could make a case it was close...but WI? Good grief.


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## George Harris

Green Maned Lion said:


> Let me give you a choice of two candidates from two political parties.
> Candidate Adolf H. Söhn of the MascuBovus Fecus party is strongly in support of: Rail, seggregation, the ku-klux-klan, and the extermination of all Italians, Jews, Muslims, Irish, Indians, Africans, and Albinos. He is against: Women's Sufferage, freedom of speech, and the silly idea of personal freedom.
> 
> Candidate M. L. King of the Mick E. Maus Party is strongly in support of: Freedom of speech, Freedom of religion, and having A. H. Sohn comitted to a mental institution. He is against bigotry and rail.
> 
> Which would you vote for?
> 
> Now logically follow this away from the extreme. Understand now, Dax?


Thanks. Excellent explanation. Also a point I was trying to make. If people do not get it now, they never will.

By the way, this also explains why quite a few high-seniority congress critters remain in office. No matter how repulsive you are personally, and dubious politically, as long as you earmark for your home constituiency, you will find 50% plus one or more of the voters that can hold you accountable voting for you even if they havve to hold their nonse and get their gag reflex firmly under control to do so. Bringing home the bacon can cover a lot of sins in other areas.


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## Eric S

Anderson said:


> To be fair, Branstad _seems_ to be taking a reasonable tack on this. I can at least respect being jittery about having to match a nine-figure rail grant right now, but he hasn't killed anything yet (and yes, I know "yet" is the operative word). That said...Branstad's been around almost thirty years, and I think he's not the type to kill projects for the hell of it.
> 
> On another topic, there's a dog that didn't bark here which just bit me: It was more or less known that Walker was probably going to win (he'd been up in every poll for several months) and I don't think it was any secret he was anti-rail. I'd kinda like to know why Ray LaHood announced an appropriation under those circumstances _before_ the election. If anything, prudence ought to have dictated waiting until Nov. 8 or 9 and making some phone calls. I know, I know...some of this was election season "vote buying" in the form of timing an appropriation announcement, but still. In Ohio, I'll grant you could make a case it was close...but WI? Good grief.


Well, the grant was announced in January, before Walker had even won the Republican primary, so it was certainly plausible (at that time) that things had a long way to go until the election and much could have (should have, in my opinion) changed before November. Plus, the MKE-MAD _Hiawatha_ extension was a project studied and supported by Republican and Democratic governors for 20 years.


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## Devil's Advocate

George Harris said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me give you a choice of two candidates from two political parties...Which would you vote for?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Excellent explanation. Also a point I was trying to make. If people do not get it now, they never will.
Click to expand...

If you wait until there are only two candidates remaining and then complain that you don't have any good choices left to vote for then you're simply waiting too late to get involved. Your citizenship is active 365 days a year, not just once every two years when a national referendum is being held. Every phone call, every letter, and every dollar can be a vote for or against something important to you. Or you can just put your feet up and relax while the system narrows your options all the way down to bad and worse. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.



George Harris said:


> By the way, this also explains why quite a few high-seniority congress critters remain in office. No matter how repulsive you are personally, and dubious politically, as long as you earmark for your home constituiency, you will find 50% plus one or more of the voters that can hold you accountable voting for you even if they havve to hold their nonse and get their gag reflex firmly under control to do so.


The pork doesn't impress (or help) the voters. It impresses (and helps) your current and future financial contributors who get a slice of the action. Then you use the (legal) kick-backs they provide to fund your campaigns with managers and marketers who can make the other guy look even just a little worse than you. Rinse and repeat and you will eventually end up as part of the majority party presiding over America's partisan gerrymandering process and lock-in your gains for the next few _decades_. This more than anything explains why our infrastructure is based on politics more than need and why the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. For a few lucky Americans that's a good thing that just keeps getting better. For most of us it's a bad thing that just keeps getting worse.


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## Anderson

Eric S said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, Branstad _seems_ to be taking a reasonable tack on this. I can at least respect being jittery about having to match a nine-figure rail grant right now, but he hasn't killed anything yet (and yes, I know "yet" is the operative word). That said...Branstad's been around almost thirty years, and I think he's not the type to kill projects for the hell of it.
> 
> On another topic, there's a dog that didn't bark here which just bit me: It was more or less known that Walker was probably going to win (he'd been up in every poll for several months) and I don't think it was any secret he was anti-rail. I'd kinda like to know why Ray LaHood announced an appropriation under those circumstances _before_ the election. If anything, prudence ought to have dictated waiting until Nov. 8 or 9 and making some phone calls. I know, I know...some of this was election season "vote buying" in the form of timing an appropriation announcement, but still. In Ohio, I'll grant you could make a case it was close...but WI? Good grief.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the grant was announced in January, before Walker had even won the Republican primary, so it was certainly plausible (at that time) that things had a long way to go until the election and much could have (should have, in my opinion) changed before November. Plus, the MKE-MAD _Hiawatha_ extension was a project studied and supported by Republican and Democratic governors for 20 years.
Click to expand...

I'd seen the announcement in October; I wasn't sure how much had been out there prior to that (in terms of actual commitments), that's all. And the problem, in some ways, is that something_ did_ change between January and November...in the wrong way (it's a decent trip from Scott Brown's upset to Sharron Angle and Joe Miller).


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## George Harris

daxomni said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me give you a choice of two candidates from two political parties...Which would you vote for?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Excellent explanation. Also a point I was trying to make. If people do not get it now, they never will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you wait until there are only two candidates remaining and then complain that you don't have any good choices left to vote for then you're simply waiting too late to get involved. Your citizenship is active 365 days a year, not just once every two years when a national referendum is being held. Every phone call, every letter, and every dollar can be a vote for or against something important to you. Or you can just put your feet up and relax while the system narrows your options all the way down to bad and worse. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.
Click to expand...

You can still end up with a GML style option even if you do fight hard not to. So far as I am concerned that is exactly what happened the last presidential election go-round. It came down to a decision between the least worst, not the best of two good ones.



> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, this also explains why quite a few high-seniority congress critters remain in office. No matter how repulsive you are personally, and dubious politically, as long as you earmark for your home constituiency, you will find 50% plus one or more of the voters that can hold you accountable voting for you even if they havve to hold their nonse and get their gag reflex firmly under control to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> The pork doesn't impress (or help) the voters.
Click to expand...

Actually, it does, and that is first hand knowledge. How do you think Daddy Gore remained a senator for Tennessee long after he became completely out of step with the majority of his constituency.

I will after this say no mre on this whole issue. This last is for the rest of the readers. As for Mr. D, I give up. If the GML and I are together on something politically, that should tell you something.


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## Green Maned Lion

George Harris said:


> As for Mr. D, I give up. If the GML and I are together on something politically, that should tell you something.


Amen.


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## Devil's Advocate

George Harris said:


> As for Mr. D, I give up. If the GML and I are together on something politically, that should tell you something.


What it mainly tells me is that you've accepted the status quo. That is not in itself a bad thing. If it means we won't hear any more convoluted explanations for how folks can claim to be pro-rail while actively voting for anti-rail politicians then I'm fine with that. I don't care what ideology any given person chooses to uphold so long as they actually live up to their own ideals. The only ideology I am unable to tolerate is intentional hypocrisy.


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## Green Maned Lion

daxomni said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for Mr. D, I give up. If the GML and I are together on something politically, that should tell you something.
> 
> 
> 
> What it mainly tells me is that you've accepted the status quo. That is not in itself a bad thing. If it means we won't hear any more convoluted explanations for how folks can claim to be pro-rail while actively voting for anti-rail politicians then I'm fine with that. I don't care what ideology any given person chooses to uphold so long as they actually live up to their own ideals. The only ideology I am unable to tolerate is intentional hypocrisy.
Click to expand...

I actively involve myself in politics. While I won't say I was in the top 10, I was among the people who contributed to killing the ARC tunnel, for example. I don't accept the status quo. I think it is ridiculous.

However, I also accept that I am not going to buy a political bulldozer (and I don't mean sleeping through a speech) and run it the hell through Washington. It is not possible to exert change that quickly or efficiently, or broadly. Killing the ARC tunnel, a hilariously stupid and over-bloated project, was hard, almost impossible- to the point where most of us involved sat stunned when we actually accomplished it.

For me to accomplish change, instead, I have to accept what is possible- and what is needed to be done in order to get that change. I could set up a grand GML party to form a military and change things by force, creating a new, better democratic government- and find myself in jail. I could go in front of my officials and rant at them at how dumb they are, how corrupt they are, and how much they don't care about what I have to say- and be completely ignored with polite nods.

Instead I put in words here, other words there. Make friends with politician's aides, and politicians themselves. Change a little here, a little there with a kind word and a quiet suggestion. Move things a little. Become respected. Become listened to. Because an aide will pass on a suggestion to the big man if they think it makes sense- and the big man will listen to his trusted aide. Because a friend will listen to another friend when that friend makes sense- even if one of them is a NJ assemblyman. I get a little, very little, done quietly.

Instead of loudly accomplishing nothing.

And yes, I vote too. In primaries, as well.


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## George Harris

daxomni said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for Mr. D, I give up. If the GML and I are together on something politically, that should tell you something.
> 
> 
> 
> What it mainly tells me is that you've accepted the status quo. That is not in itself a bad thing. If it means we won't hear any more convoluted explanations for how folks can claim to be pro-rail while actively voting for anti-rail politicians then I'm fine with that. I don't care what ideology any given person chooses to uphold so long as they actually live up to their own ideals. The only ideology I am unable to tolerate is intentional hypocrisy.
Click to expand...

I should leave this alone but this last statement is not at all what the GML and I are talking about.

Ever heard that "politics is the art of the possible?" It is realism, not hypocricy that leads one to prioritize the significance of a particular politicians promises/commitments.

Hypocricy is the person that promotes gun control while keeping a gun within reach at all times. Hypocricy is the person that opposes hiring illegal workers and has a housemaid and gardener that are illegal because he knowns that he can make them work 60 hours plus a week for less than minimum wage to save himself money. And on and on.


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## ALC Rail Writer

Green Maned Lion said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for Mr. D, I give up. If the GML and I are together on something politically, that should tell you something.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen.
Click to expand...

I'll third that.


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## Long Train Runnin'

Scott Walker explains in his own words why he stopped the train.

Story is here


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## MattW

And just as suspected, his reasons are complete and total propagandist crap.

First, he makes millions sound like huge money. For you, or me, it quite likely is, but it's only .02% of the state budget for much greater benefit.

Second, this short segment would have formed part of a backbone of this "reliable and cost-effective transportation system" he talks about.

Third, it's called INVESTING for a reason! Spend some now, get lots more later.

Fourth, this was phase I of the project, it's an investment in more than just Southeastern Wisconsin.

This guy needs to be run out of town on a rail (well, maybe a road since that's all there will be when he's through), and someone needs to do something to get the funds back, or squeeze the funds out of Wisconsin's budget. Minnesota's idea of simple avoiding Wisconsin won't work because going through Iowa is a longer more circuitous route. What the Federal government should have done is given the funding to Minnesota and directed them to form a railroad company and build through Wisconsin just like any other railroad company could (if it's even legally/administratively possible of course).


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## AlanB

> To get products from one part of the country to another, we need a reliable and cost-effective transportation system. We have one today, but it is in dire need of repair. Raiding funds from Wisconsin to fund questionable new “high-speed” rail lines in other states means less support for fixing crumbling roads, bridges and freight rail lines in Wisconsin.


Actually, this one quote showed that he has no clue what he's talking about and that he did zero investigating into this entire project.

To say that freight rail lines in Wisconin need money and support is one reason why he was opposed to this project, when this project not only would have improved the freight lines in Wisconsin, but would have improved one of the State owned freight rail lines shows me that he has no clue about this project. This was never about the money or anything else. This entire anti-train stance was all about getting elected and nothing more.


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## Trogdor

AlanB said:


> This entire anti-train stance was all about getting elected and nothing more.


Bingo. That's the way it has been for a couple of decades.

At first, anti-rail was just anti-light rail (even supposedly pro-rail Tommy Thompson was against light rail). Now, it's against any new passenger rail of any sort.


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## saxman

This whole rail thing has been turned into a political football. People are against it because they are not use to it, and they say is socialism or liberal. It's pretty annoying when it comes to that. In my opinion, this country can't afford NOT to build a national rail network that works with highways and airways to build our economy back up. Economies don't work without good transportation. Unfortunately, our leaders keep acting as if rail lines compete again roads, and prevents us from moving.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but needed a little rant.


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