# Electric Cars



## Exvalley

Who here owns an EV? I leased a Chevrolet Bolt for my teenage son. I absolutely love it.

Some thoughts in no particular order:
1) It's an absolute blast to drive. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds is nice, but what's really nice is the instant torque. It is incredibly zippy.
2) I love never having to go to a gas station. Just pull into the garage and plug in.
3) It's a perfect second car. I doubt that I would make it my only car. Longer trips can be done, but there is a LOT of downtime and I really don't want to have to deal with range anxiety.
3) The range takes a big hit in the winter. We go from about 260 miles in the summer to 160 in the winter. If you don't use the heat you can get about 180 miles. But I always use the heat. I live in USDA Hardiness Zone 4b.
4) It's nice to have instant heat in the winter. No need to wait for the car to warm up in order to get heat.
5) The Bolt was surprisingly affordable. We leased it for $199 per month with no money down.
6) Maintenance is so much cheaper. No oil changes is a big plus.

I must say that I am sold on EVs, and there are a lot of new models about to be released. I got ours because I was looking for something cheap for my son to drive. Now I want one for myself!


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## trainman74

Unfortunately, I live in an apartment building, and although I have my own parking spot (and an individual electric meter), there's no plug-in for an electric car. I know I'm far from alone in facing this. I'd like to see landlords given incentives to install plugs.


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## Exvalley

Some states are passing “right to charge laws” that facilitate charging infrastructure for tenants.



https://www.nescaum.org/documents/ev-right-to-charge.pdf/


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## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> Who here owns an EV? I leased a Chevrolet Bolt for my teenage son. I absolutely love it.
> 
> Some thoughts in no particular order:
> 1) It's an absolute blast to drive. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds is nice, but what's really nice is the instant torque. It is incredibly zippy.
> 2) I love never having to go to a gas station. Just pull into the garage and plug in.
> 3) It's a perfect second car. I doubt that I would make it my only car. Longer trips can be done, but there is a LOT of downtime and I really don't want to have to deal with range anxiety.
> 3) The range takes a big hit in the winter. We go from about 260 miles in the summer to 160 in the winter. If you don't use the heat you can get about 180 miles. But I always use the heat. I live in USDA Hardiness Zone 4b.
> 4) It's nice to have instant heat in the winter. No need to wait for the car to warm up in order to get heat.
> 5) The Bolt was surprisingly affordable. We leased it for $199 per month with no money down.
> 6) Maintenance is so much cheaper. No oil changes is a big plus.
> 
> I must say that I am sold on EVs, and there are a lot of new models about to be released. I got ours because I was looking for something cheap for my son to drive. Now I want one for myself!


Perfect for Urban settings, and short trips!

But overall, cars like the Prius and other Hybrids are better overall Daily Drivers!


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## PVD

And in between, and gaining popularity are the plug in hybrids. As battery technology improves, many of them can achieve the average commutes, recharge easily overnight, or at work if provided, and no "range anxiety. NY Power Authority sends a group of various cars ( volt, bolt, pacifica plug) and a group of specialists to present to the class to the training center where I teach alternative energy systems to electrical apprentices. We have 4 "chargers" (actually EVSE since the charger is actually in the car) A few years ago I trained to teach EVITP classes (electrical vehicle infrastructure training program) but haven't actually taught a full curriculum class. All this stuff kept me so busy, I really miss it. Since I retired in 2013 I really found a sense of fulfillment in helping to shape the next generation of electrical workers.


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## railiner

I considered getting a plug-in Prius, but for my use, more longer trips, well beyond the EV mode range of the plug-in, the “standard” hybrid delivers better mileage, account of carrying a lot less battery weight.
If I still commuted, it would be a different story.


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## PVD

My sister and brother in law each have a Prius, they have been extremely satisfied. My brother in law replaced his original one, my sister was going to get a new one this year, but spent a bundle on a back operation for her dachshund.


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## Devil's Advocate

People are always telling me that EV's don't have enough range, but it turns out that typical urban commuting can be handled by almost any current generation EV and an overnight charge through a standard 120V outlet. If you have to go on a cross country trip you can rent a conventional car or get an EV with a 300+ mile range and an extensive charging network. At least one EV is rated up to 400 miles per charge now. Some of the people who tell me that's not enough struggle to last more than two hours between restroom breaks but they still expect to drive six hours straight somehow. My Accord can manage up to 700 miles on a single tank but after 300 miles or so I need to stop and do something else for a while just to keep my sanity. So why would I need more than that on a single charge? Because I might find a rare blue moon excuse to use it? Choosing a vehicle based on 1% of your trips seems silly.


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## Exvalley

As much as I love my EV, they really aren't practical for long distance driving.

The EVs that are "affordable" to the masses have a range of about 250 miles. The rare models that offer 400 mile range come at a HUGE price premium - one that really can't be justified. 

So let's take the 250 range model and go on a sample trip. It's winter. Your range is really 160 miles. But that's what the car says and not what you will actually get. Since you are driving at interstate highway speeds, your range will be more like 140 miles. And you aren't going to pull up to a charging station with a completely empty battery. So you plan on 120 miles until your first charge. But there aren't a ton of Level 3 charging stations out there, especially in the more rural areas between cities. Your best option is a charger that is 100 miles. After driving the 100 miles you pull up to the charging station. You get lucky and find one that isn't being used or is broken. You plug in. But it's winter, remember? The battery charges much more slowly in the winter. Hopefully there is somewhere decent to wait. You are lucky. There is a McDonalds nearby. After sitting in McDonald's for nearly two hours your battery is 80% charged. You aren't going to charge it past 80% because Level 3 charging slows WAY down after 80% to avoid damage to the battery. This is especially true in the winter. And since you pay based on time, not based on electricity used, it makes no financial sense to go past 80% even if you had the time to sit and wait. So now you pull out of the charging station. But instead of 140 miles for your range, now you have 112 miles. And the process repeats itself...

Can you rent a car instead? Sure. But that's a pain in the neck and far from cheap. One rental per month will pretty much negate the savings of owning an electric car. And that doesn't factor in the reality that an electric car is usually more expensive than a comparable gasoline powered car.

I am a HUGE advocate for electric cars, but I believe that we need to be honest about what they are good at - and what they are not good at. I want owners to be happy with their purchase, not frustrated. Happy owners make for great ambassadors.


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## railiner

I bought a 2004 Prius, and replaced it with a 2010...so I clearly do like the car. In my case, I am retired now, so no commuting. I do "shuttle" back and forth, between my apartment in Queeens, and my home in Florida. I drive nonstop, except twice to refuel, and use the restroom. I was a professional driver, so am used to long drives, and actually enjoy them. The Prius is a great car for that use. YMMV


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## Qapla

@Exvalley made no mention of what carrying or towing a load does to the range of an EV.

How does carrying 5,000 pounds of cargo impact the distance? What about towing an RV or work trailer?

If you already live in a rural area where chargers are not plenty, common or convenient, then you have to rely on getting to and from your destination with the charge you got at home - how can you be sure you will make it back home if there are no charging stations between your home and your destination?


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## Metra Electric Rider

My previous employer had two Volts and was happy enough with them. The guy who often parked next to him in the parking structure near our office had a Leaf and had not made it home several times (obviously didn't figure his commute distance vs mileage well enough before he bought). A friend bought a Leaf as an impulse buy and regretted it - part of the problem was that running the heater in winter halved the range iirc. I'm concerned about the recyclability of the batteries in any of these vehicles - not sure that they aren't worse polluters long term than burning gas.


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## me_little_me

I have two hybrids - 2009 Camry bought in April 2008 and 2012 Prius bought that year. Not a bit of trouble with either one - in fact we just replaced the Camry 12V battery - after TWELVE YEARS! Nothing but oil/filter changes and new tires.
There is only one problem with having hybrids. We can pass every gas station but have to stop and hug every tree. So embarrassing!


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## Exvalley

Qapla said:


> @Exvalley made no mention of what carrying or towing a load does to the range of an EV.
> 
> How does carrying 5,000 pounds of cargo impact the distance? What about towing an RV or work trailer?



The impact on range is exactly what you would think - not good at all. EVs are fine for light towing around town, but that's it.



Metra Electric Rider said:


> A friend bought a Leaf as an impulse buy and regretted it



I would have regretted a Leaf as well. The range of the Leaf until very recently was 107 miles. That's the range you get if you drive in warm weather under ideal conditions. That's just not enough range. The Leaf also had poor battery thermal management.


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## railiner

Metra Electric Rider said:


> My previous employer had two Volts and was happy enough with them. The guy who often parked next to him in the parking structure near our office had a Leaf and had not made it home several times (obviously didn't figure his commute distance vs mileage well enough before he bought). A friend bought a Leaf as an impulse buy and regretted it - part of the problem was that running the heater in winter halved the range iirc. I'm concerned about the recyclability of the batteries in any of these vehicles - not sure that they aren't worse polluters long term than burning gas.


I’ve wondered about alternative methods of regenerating energy, besides the battery...some sort of flywheel that could be spun up by hydraulic engine retarder braking, and then used to accelerate?


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## Exvalley

It's hard to argue against a PHEV (plug-in electric hybrid). This is especially true for a one car household.

An EV worked for us because we already have a gasoline powered car for longer trips, so we didn't need the range of a PHEV.


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## Exvalley

railiner said:


> I’ve wondered about alternative methods of regenerating energy, besides the battery...some sort of flywheel that could be spun up by hydraulic engine retarder braking, and then used to accelerate?



The Chevrolet Bolt has "one pedal driving". One-pedal driving uses highest available level of regenerative braking, which captures otherwise lost energy from deceleration and sends it back to the Bolt EV battery pack. It doesn't just help with your range, it means that your brakes will last MUCH longer. I find myself using the brakes every now and then just to make sure that they don't rust up.


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## railiner

I was just thinking about the environmental issue of the batteries, not expecting any improvement in mpg, by my alternative....


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## PVD

Lots of research into less onerous battery chemistries, looking to use materials that are less damaging to the environment to mine and process, easier to recycle, and where the mining is less damaging both socially and environmentally. Achieving those goals, as well as improving energy density (how much energy can be stored in a given package) is likely the next big advance ( or group of small steps) in energy storage. Keep in mind that large scale energy storage is critically important to wider use of renewable energy.


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## Exvalley

There are also some major advances in repurposing EV batteries. A battery that has 70% capacity is not good for an EV, but it is perfectly fine for home energy storage and other such uses.


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## Ziv

I have had a 2013 Chevy Volt for 7 years and really like it. I get 40-44 miles of all electric range in the summer, then the onboard gas genset kicks in and I get around 38 mpg and can drive all day on the gas genset. When the temperature is below freezing I get around 28-30 miles of AER before the genset kicks in. Electricity costs a little over a dime a kWh where I live so my 30 miles a day of driving uses about 8 kWh, which costs around 80 cents, or $24 a month. My condo charged me $25 a month to plug my car in.
The cool thing about the Volt is that you have the "best" of both worlds. And since the usable pack capacity is just 10.8 kWh, you can plug into any regular 110 outlet and get a full charge while you are at home sleeping. A full charge takes around 10 hours with a 110 outlet and around 4 hours with a 3.3 kW charger. The "worst" part about the Volt is that it is a 2 + 2 sedan, with 2 very comfortable seats up front and two kind of cramped seats in back.
Inexplicably, GM chose to stop making the Volt last year but the used ones are great cars, especially the last year where they have 7.2 kW max charge rate. I like that because you can get 22 miles of additional AER while you are eating lunch instead of just 11. I have used a whopping 104 gallons of gasoline in 7 years and I could have cut that in half if my Volt charged faster while I break for lunch. Driving the last 6 or 7 miles of the day using the genset on your way home is mildly frustrating when you know that faster charging would have made your day all electric. The up side is that your car is always fully charged when you wake up, I have usually gone to the gas station 3 times a year for the past 7 years.
One important thing to remember about electric cars is that you don't NEED a dedicated charger to own one, though they help a lot. You just need a regular 110 plug if you are at home for at least 9 hours every night. 9 hours of charging will get you around 45-50 miles of additional AER which is more than most people drive in a day. If you are home for 10 or 12 hours you will get 50-65 additional miles of AER. Many apartment buildings are allowing plug in car owners to plug their cars into regular outlets and charging them a nominal fee like $25 to $35 a month for the privilege. Which is a bit more than the cost of the electricity most electric cars actually use in a month.


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## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> As much as I love my EV, they really aren't practical for long distance driving. The EVs that are "affordable" to the masses have a range of about 250 miles. The rare models that offer 400 mile range come at a HUGE price premium - one that really can't be justified.


If cost is the issue then people should complain about price rather than claiming EV technology still cannot manage functional driving range like we’re stuck in the 1990’s. Current EV models can handle long distance driving and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of videos detailing the experience. It's true they're expensive but they do exist and they can keep on driving as long as most humans can.



Exvalley said:


> So let's take the 250 range model and go on a sample trip. […] But instead of 140 miles for your range, now you have 112 miles. And the process repeats itself.


I drive more than 100 miles each way about three or four times per year. So around 99% of my use case is handled by even the cheapest and most basic of EVs and a 110V plug. The rest of the time I can rent whatever I need. The US has some of the cheapest car rentals in the world. Lack of reasonable consumer protections can sometimes turn minor fender benders into profit centers, but the cost of renting itself is relatively cheap. The only time it's been a major logistics issue is when I'm arriving or departing on Amtrak and need to pickup or drop off outside of normal business hours.



Exvalley said:


> I am a HUGE advocate for electric cars, but I believe that we need to be honest about what they are good at - and what they are not good at. I want owners to be happy with their purchase, not frustrated. Happy owners make for great ambassadors.


I agree, which is why I say EV’s are good for the vast majority of typical daily driving needs but refrain from claiming they come with any savings. EV’s have never been cheap and buying one with the intention of saving money in a country with inexpensive combustion vehicles and some of the world's cheapest fossil fuel has never made much sense to me. If you want to save money get a hybrid. If you want to reduce pollution get an electric vehicle and push for more renewable power generation.


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## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> I drive more than 100 miles each way about three or four times per year. So around 99% of my use case is handled by even the cheapest and most basic of EVs and a 110V plug. The rest of the time I can rent whatever I need.


The top two reasons why people report that they did not consider an EV are (1) range anxiety; and (2) a lack of charging stations. Both of those concerns are quite valid. Even if you only need the range a few times per year, rather than renting a car you could just buy a car that works in all situations. The vast majority of consumers prefer the latter, which is quite understandable.




Devil's Advocate said:


> I agree, which is why I say EV’s are good for the vast majority of typical daily driving needs but refrain from claiming they come with any savings. *EV’s have never been cheap* and buying one with the intention of saving money in a country with inexpensive combustion vehicles and some of the world's cheapest fossil fuel has never made much sense to me.



I beg to differ about EVs never being cheap. Despite an MSRP of about $44,000, my lease is only $199 per month with no money down. 10,000 miles per year - which is definitely sufficient since the vehicle isn't used for long trips. My local electrical utility gave me a free $500 Level 2 charger and a $1,500 check. Maintenance and fuel costs are a fraction of what I would pay with a gasoline car. So I have found EV ownership to be cheap. When I purchased my Bolt, a local Volkswagen dealership was offering eGolf leases for $99 per month. I didn't qualify because the offer involved a state incentive that had an income cutoff. But a lower income household could lease a brand new car for $99 per month and get a free Level 2 charger. *The misconception that EV ownership can "never be cheap" is arguably the biggest misconception out there about EV ownership.*

I love my EV. But that's because it is a tool in my toolbox. There are advantages and disadvantages to EVs. Fortunately, my other vehicles negate the disadvantages and I am left with an incredibly affordable form of transportation that I love to drive.


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## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> I beg to differ about EVs never being cheap. Despite an MSRP of about $44,000, my lease is only $199 per month with no money down. 10,000 miles per year - which is definitely sufficient since the vehicle isn't used for long trips. My local electrical utility gave me a free $500 Level 2 charger and a $1,500 check. Maintenance and fuel costs are a fraction of what I would pay with a gasoline car. So I have found EV ownership to be cheap. When I purchased my Bolt, a local Volkswagen dealership was offering eGolf leases for $99 per month. I didn't qualify because the offer involved a state incentive that had an income cutoff. But a lower income household could lease a brand new car for $99 per month and get a free Level 2 charger. The misconception that EV ownership can "never be cheap" is arguably the biggest misconception out there about EV ownership. I love my EV. But that's because it is a tool in my toolbox. There are advantages and disadvantages to EVs. Fortunately, my other vehicles negate the disadvantages and I am left with an incredibly affordable form of transportation that I love to drive.


I’m glad you found a stack of incentives that worked well for your situation, but where I live people who say they are looking for a "cheap" car are unlikely to qualify for discounted lease terms and would likely get hosed with a $44,000 car loan. They would also struggle to float the cost of rebates and are unlikely to live in a house with a functional garage that is both up to code and can be modified at will. It's true that I said EV’s have never _been_ cheap, however I do believe that EV’s will_ become_ less and less expensive over time. It will probably take a long time to reach Mitsubishi subcompact levels of cheap but even that is a possibility someday. The sooner the better in my view.


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## Exvalley

My rebates were available to all and I got absolutely nothing from my state. Only $1,500 from my utility. So, in total, I got less than most jurisdictions give. Many states put mine to shame.

Are EVs as cheap as a Mitsubishi subcompact? No. But you’ve moved the goalposts with that argument. EVs, with incentives, are often cheap, even if they aren’t the absolute cheapest possible new vehicle. Of course that depends on incentives. Fortunately, incentives are plentiful, often embarrassingly so. But it would be nice to get the MSRP down. I agree with you there. However, keep in mind that the lower cost of ownership makes up for some discrepancy in MSRP.

Also, you don’t need a garage for an EV. Just a regular wall outlet and perhaps an extension cord. A level 2 charger is a plus, but definitely not needed based on your driving habits,


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## me_little_me

Exvalley said:


> The Chevrolet Bolt has "one pedal driving". One-pedal driving uses highest available level of regenerative braking, which captures otherwise lost energy from deceleration and sends it back to the Bolt EV battery pack. I


When the Leaf first came out, we thought about getting one as a second car. So when the salesman bragged about the number of miles, I asked him to let me know if he could drive to Greenville, SC and back (45 miles or so each way) in summer or winter without a problem - and told him if called me and showed me he did it, I'd buy one.

The problem of course is we lived in the mountains and it's downhill all the way to Greenville. Thus, the car is always charging to Greenville but there is no place to put the energy once the batteries are full and that wouldn't take long. On the other hand, coming home was uphill and with heat in winter and A/C in summer, there wouldn't be much left to push that car uphill for 45 miles and falling short would be a disaster especially since there were no charging stations outside of town.
Batteries are much better now but the declared distances are only good if you are on flat ground or go uphill first (as you can always turn around and go home if you can't make it as you'll always be charging).


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## Exvalley

The Leaf was definitely a compliance car and not a practical car.

One side note: Heat reduces range much more than air conditioning. This is especially true for the Bolt because it has a resistance heater rather than a heat pump. The advantage is that the Bolt’s heater works well in extremely cold temperatures. Where I live that’s important.


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## PVD

I agree that level 1 charging might be adequate for many users, but proper practice is using a separate circuit. First choice would be a J1772 extension cord, extension cords between the receptacle and charging service unit are not something manufacturers will usually sanction, and honestly, most people would not spend the money for an appropriate cordset either from an ampacity or possible need for GF protection.


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## PVD

trainman74 said:


> Unfortunately, I live in an apartment building, and although I have my own parking spot (and an individual electric meter), there's no plug-in for an electric car. I know I'm far from alone in facing this. I'd like to see landlords given incentives to install plugs.


I don't know where you live, in NY NYSERDA has EVSE incentives....


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## PVD

Exvalley said:


> The Leaf was definitely a compliance car and not a practical car.
> 
> One side note: Heat reduces range much more than air conditioning. This is especially true for the Bolt because it has a resistance heater rather than a heat pump. The advantage is that the Bolt’s heater works well in extremely cold temperatures. Where I live that’s important.


There was a major upgrade to range on the later generation (2018 forward) Leaf. One of the best deals was the closeout deal a few years ago where PSE&G had a deal with Nissan to give 10,000 dollars back on a 2017 Leaf. Couple that with the Federal incentive, and the car was half price. If the range was not an issue, it was a steal. They wanted to clear out all of the 17's, the 18's were much better.


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## Devil's Advocate

me_little_me said:


> When the Leaf first came out, we thought about getting one as a second car. So when the salesman bragged about the number of miles, I asked him to let me know if he could drive to Greenville, SC and back (45 miles or so each way) in summer or winter without a problem - and told him if called me and showed me he did it, I'd buy one.


I'm kind of disappointed he didn't strip the interior and pump up the tires to make it happen. This guy is giving car salesmen a bad name.



me_little_me said:


> Batteries are much better now but the declared distances are only good if you are on flat ground or go uphill first (as you can always turn around and go home if you can't make it as you'll always be charging).


Why did you think a first generation Leaf would be appropriate to your situation? The original model was among least practical cars around and was only useful in rare situations. As PVD mentioned it's gotten a lot better over time and later revisions are much more functional.


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## PVD

NYC has a bunch of them. For folks like building or fire inspectors and other workers that use a car, but drive very few miles in a day they are excellent. When they bring them back at the end of the day they plug them in and the next morning they are good to go.


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## me_little_me

Personally, I think the whole electric car implementation concept was not done right. From the very beginning, there should have been two focuses of electric vehicles.

1) Small trucks not used for long distances but primarily start/stop. USPS delivery trucks would have been an example. Looks would have been less important than utility. Overnight central charging facilities.

2) City taxis in regulated environments (e.g. NYC). Again, utility could win out over looks. Taxis would be required to remain at stands on chargers. A central number would dispatch the taxi or someone could walk up to the stand. When the taxi dropped off the passenger, they would have to proceed to the nearest stand with an available charger but could be moved by dispatcher to places where more taxis were needed. Separate, non-electric taxis would be used for "out of town" drop-offs. No roaming taxis permitted. Admittedly, this would be a major change to NYC's "medallion" stupidity and would require government funding of charging stations and subsidy for the taxis which might be leased to drivers. A single central dispatching system would be used and the whole concept would be like a contracted or city run Uber with individual cab ownership, customer ratings to insure standards compliance. Costs could be recovered as a percentage of the fare. 

A lot more complicated than my simplified explanation but the result would be good testing of electric vehicles; maximum use with no problem of insufficient electric distances; big improvement in central city air quality; quality testing of vehicle and battery reliance.


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## jiml

Exvalley said:


> I beg to differ about EVs never being cheap. Despite an MSRP of about $44,000, my lease is only $199 per month with no money down. 10,000 miles per year - which is definitely sufficient since the vehicle isn't used for long trips. My local electrical utility gave me a free $500 Level 2 charger and a $1,500 check. Maintenance and fuel costs are a fraction of what I would pay with a gasoline car. So I have found EV ownership to be cheap.


That is an incredible monthly rate. Your vehicle must have a very attractive buyback. I did a couple of tests of similar-priced vehicles on manufacturer websites and, even with 0% financing in one case, could barely get a _bi-weekly_ lease rate that low. Was there some other government or manufacturer incentive applied to the sticker price? I want to buy my next car where you live!


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## MARC Rider

For those interested in electric cars, here are two books:









Off the Grid


The rollicking tale of a first-of-its-kind adventuredriving a Tesla through Central America.Only a week after the nation’s newspapers were filled ...




www.simonandschuster.com





The guy drove a Tesla (with a trunk full of electrician's equipment) from Texas to Panama. There was pretty much no EV charging infrastructure, but he made it. 






The Electric Vehicle and the Burden of History: Kirsch, David A: 9780813528090: Amazon.com: Books


The Electric Vehicle and the Burden of History [Kirsch, David A] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Electric Vehicle and the Burden of History



www.amazon.com





This is a sort of sociological study that discusses why internal combustion cars prevailed over electric cars. Electric cars are nothing new. A hundred years ago, they are all over New York City serving mostly as taxicabs and delivery trucks. Somehow our society decided that having internal combustion cars that could go longer distances was more important than taxicabs, delivery trucks and "city cars", even if, at the time, internal combustion cars were mostly a toy for rich people. An interesting study on how sociological and cultural conditions interact with engineering and technological capabilities.


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## RichieRich

Since they couldn't sell an EV (at actual cost) without the Incentives & Subsidies....where does the money come from to produce Incentives & Subsidies???


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## jiml

RichieRich said:


> Since they couldn't sell an EV (at actual cost) without the Incentives & Subsidies....where does the money come from to produce Incentives & Subsidies???


All of our tax dollars.


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## drdumont

Exvalley said:


> Who here owns an EV? I leased a Chevrolet Bolt for my teenage son. I absolutely love it.
> 
> Some thoughts in no particular order:
> 1) It's an absolute blast to drive. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds is nice, but what's really nice is the instant torque. It is incredibly zippy. *YES!*
> 2) I love never having to go to a gas station. Just pull into the garage and plug in. *Or plug in lots of convenient places.*
> 3) It's a perfect second car. I doubt that I would make it my only car. Longer trips can be done, but there is a LOT of downtime and I really don't want to have to deal with range anxiety. *Mmmm... Not so much. Make the trip in an ICEV then in an EV. Try it in the winter - standing by a pump in the blowing cold, or sitting in the car toasty warm ...*
> 3) The range takes a big hit in the winter. We go from about 260 miles in the summer to 160 in the winter. If you don't use the heat you can get about 180 miles. But I always use the heat. I live in USDA Hardiness Zone 4b. *You have the smallest battery. Your numbers are close, but do you use the best power management? Heated seats vs cabin, run on RECIRCULATE for best economy, and a couple of other tricks. *
> 4) It's nice to have instant heat in the winter. No need to wait for the car to warm up in order to get heat. *And instant cool in the Summer. Parked in the sun, it gets over 120 inside. ten minutes before I want to leave, I turn on the climate control (works on cooling OR heating). When I get to the car, it's comfortable cool or warm.*
> 5) The Bolt was surprisingly affordable. *We leased it for $199 per month with no money down. The Bolt is a nifty car for commuting and running errands. Affordable, too, no contest there.*
> 6) Maintenance is so much cheaper. *No oil changes is a big plus. No oil changes, antifreeze, serpentine belts, transmission and fluids, emissions testing, waaayyy less brake use with one pedal driving, filters, und so weiter.*
> 
> I must say that I am sold on EVs, and there are a lot of new models about to be released. I got ours because I was looking for something cheap for my son to drive. Now I want one for myself! *Yes, contagion is an issue.*
> [/QUOTE*]*
> *---------------------*
> My comments to the quote are in *RED* above. If you want the Readers' Digest edition rather than slogging through the details below, then just ignore the FUD. Do some CURRENT research. You Tube, Tesla forums, Showrooms, ask someone who has real experience. It's like Election Year. Make an informed choice, don't just pick up a rock and follow the crowd.
> 
> *---------------------*
> If you've made it this far, thanks! Here we go...
> 
> Once this thread gets going, stand by for a food fight. It will get there, I rest assure you - as Cajun Pete would say. Both sides are absolutely convinced they are on the right track and the rest of the world has split a switch.
> REPENT AND BE SAVED! It can get ugly.
> 
> ICE lovers who rant about the horrors of EVs are generally misinformed, have never properly experienced an EV, and are convinced that the other side has fallen under the spell of the worst snake oil salesmen ever. If you fall in this category, and are truly interested in learning something, then ask someone who owns a true EV. Like a Tesla. One which will run for over 80 miles without a charge. Or better yet, do as I did: Read, read, read, research, ask questions. There are any number of You Tube episodes with everything from how-tos to ride alongs. Kind of like AMTRAK and railroad enthusiasts post. Go to ABETTERROUTEPLANNER.com. Plan a trip. Take a gander at TESLAMOTORS.com. That is a congenial site not unlike this one. Informative. opinions, lots of folks with genuine information, not the Dumpster fire that is Quora.
> 
> Then check out TURO.com, and rent a Tesla for a weekend trip. I needed to go to Abilene from Dallas, and couldn't have picked a better weekend for a real world test. Good weather, bad weather, freezing, high winds, no Supercharger in Abilene, about 200 miles each way . Armed with the foreknowledge I possessed, I not only discovered free chargers in Abilene, but haven't had as much fun since the Chief Master at Arms fell down the forward torpedo room hatch.
> 
> I purchased mine online the next day. Installed a high speed charger that week, and silly me, two weeks later, took my wife of 50 years, the absolutely least techie person in Christendom to pick up the new ride. "Oh, aren't those blue ones pretty"... rinse and repeat several times for the rest of the day... A few shots across the bow... Then next day at breakfast came the Big One. The 16 incher: "I wonder what they would give us for the Cadillac...". So now we have EV The Good Ship Venus (Red) and EV The Blue Bunny (Blue).
> 
> As to the dreaded "Range Anxiety"... We make long trips all the time. We plan a route, just as always, and the car's software as well as ABRP tell us where the fueling stops are. There are "Level 2" charging places all over the place as well. Check out "Chargepoint" and "Plugshare" and "Chargehub", to name a fewy. And of course, you CAN charge a Tesla from an ordinary wall outlet, dryer outlet, RV campgrounds, the possibilities are endless. No, there's not a gas station on every corner. However, comma, compared to 6 years ago, there are tons of options, and more every day.
> 
> My "fuel" costs have dropped by at least 75 %. The daily commute went from $8-9 to about $1.25. Even less if I get the space next to the outlet at the office. I got the big battery for my car, so we ru a couple of hours, pull in, plug in, and walk away. Average charge time is about 20 minutes. At my age, that's time to visit the facility, grab a coffee, walk back, unplug and go. And the Collin Street Bakeries in Texas give you free coffee if you show your card key or phone app.
> 
> As to suitability of purpose, the EV is totally suited to mine. Maybe it is not to yours. I don't tow anything, move furniture or go four wheeling. (although I have essentially 4WD, I stay on paved roads). If I want to tow something, pull stumps, carry a refrigerator or whatever, I rent something suitable to the purpose. I haven't drunk the _Full Self Driving_ FlavRAde, so I spent the money on the bigger battery. The car is too much fun to drive to let Beta software in a computer scare the pants off of me.
> 
> Now the other side - Not everyone lives where charging is convenient. Our News Director lives in a highrise, charges once a week at the Supercharger while visiting the stores or grocery shopping. Works for her. Some employers set up charging stations. But that takes a little thought. Sometimes, the equation just doesn't balance. So you still have choices. Hybrid, Plug In Hybrid, Gasoline or Diesel. And I say Happy Motoring! Enjoy!
> 
> There are some folks for whom an EV just won't work. So ICE vehicles are fine. No issue there. They're not crazy, nor am I, in spite of the rants and raves of the zealots.
> 
> You can go several ways - Sporty, state of the art, reasonable price - the Model 3. Seats 4. New Model Y - a little bigger a few more bucks. Or the Model S - the Saloon. More "deluxe" interior, electric doors, air suspension, lots of goodies. Gonna set you back $100K. Or the Model X SUV. Model S goodies and size, gull wing doors, can seat 7. $120K minimum. You can tow with an X or an S or a Y. But why would you want to? But if you do, you can.
> 
> Entry level Tesla is gonna set you back about $42K all in. Comparable to many mid range vehicles. Not all have that in their budget. If you can deal with <100 miles of range, and slow recharging, then there are several good options, from GM and others. Got a 30 mile commute? There you go. If you want to go on a trip and can't make AMTRAK work, then rent something. EV or ICE, the choice is yours.
> 
> _OK, Doc - time to get off your soapbox_.
> 
> My point is not to sell Teslas or Hybrids or ICEs. The point I am trying to make is that there are a lot of zealots out there, broadcasting doom and gloom for anyone not agreeing with them. And quite a lot of FUD. Exploding batteries, 8 hours to charge, yuh gotta replace the battery at $15K a pop, generating stations pollute more, ad nauseam. I could spout the same FUD about ICEVs - pollution, exploding fuel tanks, CO poisoning, rinse and repeat.
> 
> Think of it as election year. Each side is going to tell you the worst about the other side. Each side has a reason for their opinion, rational or otherwise. Do some research. Ask those in whose opinions you can trust. Look, touch, feel, and then experience.
> 
> Then when the current panic is over, take a nice AMTRAK trip.


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## Trogdor

RichieRich said:


> Since they couldn't sell an EV (at actual cost) without the Incentives & Subsidies....where does the money come from to produce Incentives & Subsidies???



Same place our subsidies to oil companies comes from.


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## Devil's Advocate

I'm hoping for a new sedan between a 3/Y and S/X with a long range battery, driver side display, full size spare, and iOS support. That would be absolutely perfect for me. If that doesn't happen I may have to make do with a 3/Y since the S/X are just too much money relative to the amount of driving I do. As previously mentioned I'm not impressed with intermediate autonomy software. When the car can be trusted to drive itself from start to finish with no human handover, no clumsy hesitation, and improved safety _while I sleep in the back seat_ let me know. Until then it's just not worth the asking price.


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## Exvalley

Full autonomous driving isn’t coming as soon as most people think. Getting to 95% of the way there has been relatively easy, albeit expensive. The last 5% is proving to be a huge challenge.


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## Qapla

And it looks so easy in the movies ...


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## railiner

Very


Exvalley said:


> Full autonomous driving isn’t coming as soon as most people think. Getting to 95% of the way there has been relatively easy, albeit expensive. The last 5% is proving to be a huge challenge.


It seemed like it was almost there...but a couple of accident's, blamed on some test vehicles, set the whole program back considerably (as it should)....


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## Ziv

The price of an electric vehicle has in large part been driven by the cell price of the battery. In the 2008 to 2010 timeframe the cell price apparently dropped from $1,100 to $1,000 per kWh. Most plug in cars will give you about 3.3 to 4.0 miles per kWh at highway speeds so you either needed 100 kWh packs to get you a range of 330+ miles or you needed a smaller pack PLUS a gas genset for driving after the pack was exhausted. Tesla chose the former route with Model S and Chevy chose the latter with the Volt. 
If Tesla had built the Model S in 2010 it would have cost them $100,000 for a 100 kWh pack, plus around 33% for the thermal management system. So at that time a truly long range BEV was ruinously expensive, whereas a Volt with a 16 kWh pack that used 10.3 kWh gave 38 miles of AER and then could drive all day on the gas genset.
So Tesla started with a premium sports car in 2008, the Roadster, that was efficient (it had decent range from a 53 kWh pack), small, sporty and could justify the relatively high price. The S came along in 2012 and the less expensive 3 arrived in 2017. But the reason the 3 was able to sell profitably in 2018 was the fact that the cell price had dropped from $1100 per kWh to right around $145 per kWh and the TMS cost a bit less, as well. 
No one knows the exact figure but cell prices now are probably right around $125 per kWh for Tesla and a bit more for everyone else. As the cell prices get closer to $100 it will be easier for legacy automakers to make reasonably good BEV's with longer range and faster charging. Cell prices have been steadily dropping since 2010 and appear to have at least a few more years of price reductions in store.
Interesting days.



Exvalley said:


> Are EVs as cheap as a Mitsubishi subcompact? No. But you’ve moved the goalposts with that argument. EVs, with incentives, are often cheap, even if they aren’t the absolute cheapest possible new vehicle. Of course that depends on incentives. Fortunately, incentives are plentiful, often embarrassingly so. But it would be nice to get the MSRP down. I agree with you there. However, keep in mind that the lower cost of ownership makes up for some discrepancy in MSRP.


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## Devil's Advocate

Ziv said:


> As the cell prices get closer to $100 it will be easier for legacy automakers to make reasonably good BEV's with longer range and faster charging.


Legacy automakers still have no legal or financial incentive powerful enough to disrupt their core business by making an attractive electric vehicle at a low price with long range. Which is probably why they mostly build short range compliance vehicles which fail to interest most consumers.



Exvalley said:


> Full autonomous driving isn’t coming as soon as most people think. Getting to 95% of the way there has been relatively easy, albeit expensive. The last 5% is proving to be a huge challenge.


Imagine someone admitting they cannot reliably handle unmarked roads, bad weather, sharp curves, busy intersections, direct sunlight, surface reflections, disorderly pedestrians, obscured markings, aggressive traffic, or routine construction while also claiming to be nearly self-sufficient. In my view 95% represents an excellent driver that makes a mistake now and then but is able to recover on their own, whereas current self-driving technology is like a careless child who can handle simple tasks with a parent next to them but still has no business driving on their own and would probably wreck the car if given the chance.


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## Exvalley

We can quibble about the percentage, but there really isn’t a point in doing so. The pertinent point is that fully autonomous vehicles are still a ways off.


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## Qapla

Devil's Advocate said:


> Legacy automakers still have no legal or financial incentive powerful enough to disrupt their core business by making an attractive electric vehicle at a low price with long range. Which is probably why they mostly build short range compliance vehicles which fail to interest most consumers.



While many assume that the automakers profits come from new car sales ... this is not actually the case according to some programs I saw on TV and information on the Internet. Much of the profit that automakers glean come from the service done by dealerships. They make quite a bit of their profit from the very things EV's eliminate:

Oil changes and filters
Air filters
Brake jobs
Transmission repairs
the list goes on.
So, until the EV's can replace the automakers real profits - they will still drag their heals. Like DA said, they have no real incentive to make EV's affordable and commonplace.

They use the "advanced technology", like auto-drive, as an excuse not to make simple, efficient, everyday drivers like they offer in ICE vehicles.


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## leemell

Honda Clarity PHEV I have found is the best overall PHEV around. Reliability gets the specs it is advertised at. Except for two long (460 Miles) I have not used any gas since I bought it about 8 months ago. And that for for a total of 9 gallons for both trips. Before that I had a Toyota Camry Hybrid for 11 years. Use wall outlet for charging.


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## Qapla

Here's a question ... if you have a hybrid that you tend to never need the gas engine - does the gas go stale like it does in a lawn mower?


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## leemell

Nope. The gas tank is specially pressurized to slow that. In addition the car will eventually fire up the engine to burn some off to require new gas be pumped. At least a year.


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## MARC Rider

Exvalley said:


> We can quibble about the percentage, but there really isn’t a point in doing so. The pertinent point is that fully autonomous vehicles are still a ways off.


The other thing about fully autonomous vehicles is that, for safety and environmental reasons, they will probably ride like Grandpa driving to church on Sunday. Most consumers of automobiles want much more get-up-and go than that. I see it every day on the road, the aggressive way a lot of people drive. I've been to enough engineering/environment conferences where representatives of the automakers flat-out say they could make ICE cars with a way better fuel economy than they do, but that the consumer wants "performance," (which actually means 0 -60 acceleration, or maybe the ability to drive hairpin curves at 50 mph over the speed limit), so such fuel-efficient low emissions cars won't sell. What makes everyone thinks that an autonomous vehicle, even if it's 100% safe, will sell the way the automakers want?

I think that the real role for fully autonomous vehicles is for closed-loop offroad applications like airport rental car shuttles. Those are conceptually not too much different from the currently deployed fixed-guideway people movers that seem to be working OK. And, of course, being that it's a limited range route, always returning to base frequently, it would be ideal for full electrification of the vehicles. I've even seen inductive battery chargers, where the electric bus can just sit parked at the terminal without getting plugged in, and still get the battery recharged.


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## railiner

MARC Rider said:


> The other thing about fully autonomous vehicles is that, for safety and environmental reasons, they will probably ride like Grandpa driving to church on Sunday. Most consumers of automobiles want much more get-up-and go than that. I see it every day on the road, the aggressive way a lot of people drive. I've been to enough engineering/environment conferences where representatives of the automakers flat-out say they could make ICE cars with a way better fuel economy than they do, but that the consumer wants "performance," (which actually means 0 -60 acceleration, or maybe the ability to drive hairpin curves at 50 mph over the speed limit), so such fuel-efficient low emissions cars won't sell. What makes everyone thinks that an autonomous vehicle, even if it's 100% safe, will sell the way the automakers want?


I have to disagree with this. I think that with fully autonomous vehicles, there would be no need for aggressive driving, as the automated traffic control system would insure that all vehicles would get from origin to destination in the most efficient way possible, and the safest way. The most desirable trait would be a smooth ride, like the car was driven like a limo.


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## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> Most consumers of automobiles want much more get-up-and go than that. I see it every day on the road, the aggressive way a lot of people drive.


My efficiency focused Accord can go from lawful driving to felony speeding in about five seconds. I'm not sure what that does for anyone but there you go.



MARC Rider said:


> I've been to enough engineering/environment conferences where representatives of the automakers flat-out say they could make ICE cars with a way better fuel economy than they do, but that the consumer wants "performance," (which actually means 0 -60 acceleration, or maybe the ability to drive hairpin curves at 50 mph over the speed limit), so such fuel-efficient low emissions cars won't sell.


If consumers really wanted "performance" wouldn't they be buying sports cars, which are one of the worst selling segments, instead of SUV's and crossovers, which are two of the best selling segments?



MARC Rider said:


> I think that the real role for fully autonomous vehicles is for closed-loop offroad applications like airport rental car shuttles.


They're not spending billions on research to replace a low wage shuttle driver. I could see heavy manufacturing areas and port operations being a target though. The crown jewel is long haul trucking.


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## MARC Rider

railiner said:


> I have to disagree with this. I think that with fully autonomous vehicles, there would be no need for aggressive driving, as the automated traffic control system would insure that all vehicles would get from origin to destination in the most efficient way possible, and the safest way. The most desirable trait would be a smooth ride, like the car was driven like a limo.


Sorry, but I have to disagree. I see American drivers and how they drive. Most of them don't want a "smooth ride" like a limo. When I try to drive that way, some impatient jackass behind me starts honking his/her horn, and then passes me on my right, even if I'm driving fast. This isn't just Americans, of course. In practically every country I've visited, except maybe Japan, the driving is incredibly aggressive. There is some kind of psychological need for speed, acceleration and power. Just controlling the car gives one a feeling of power. Having a computer do it for you could feel a little emasculating. That may also be why people don't like to ride public transportation. It takes away some sense of control. The barriers to autonomous vehicles will be as much psychological as technical.


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## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> My efficiency focused Accord can go from lawful driving to felony speeding in about five seconds. I'm not sure what that does for anyone but there you go.



And if your Accord had less "performance" it would be even more "efficiency focused." I once tested my CRV (which is an SUV built on a Accord chassis) by driving a tank of gas 300 miles across the Ohio and Pennsylvania Turnpikes, but keeping to the speed limit. I got 30 mpg. Usually I'd get 24-26 mpg driving on the highway, but not accelerating as much really made a difference. I've seen the ECU logs from test laps I've run for my work. You start revving up the engine and pouring on the torque, it really sucks up the fuel.



> If consumers really wanted "performance" they'd be buying sports/sporty cars, which are one of the worst selling segments, instead of SUV's and crossovers, which are two of the best selling segments.



There's another psychological factor driving vehicle preferences. People seem to want nice big, intimidating vehicles. Whether it's because they want 'em big because they think they'd be safer in a crash or because they just want to project power isn't fully clear. Families like the minivans (another kind of crossover) because they want the space for the kids and stuff they haul. Sports cars are small and get mangled in a crash, they aren't that intimidating, and you can't haul many people or much luggage. What people seem to want is a big intimidating SUV that drives (or accelerates, at least) like a sports car. I've actually rented a bunch of them. Some of them are big, but fast, as I know from speeding tickets I got in Wisconsin and New Hampshire. 

Those SUV's could get a lot better fuel economy if they decreased "performance," but, as the automakers told us, they believe their customers want "performance" -- whatever the vehicle type they choose. They also believe that "performance" and fuel economy are inversely related, at least for ICE vehicles. Thus, they get very nervous if EPA/NHTSA gets too aggressive about fuel economy/greenhouse gas standards. They've been forced to develop engineering workarounds that moderate that inverse relationship to some extent, so they're not totally opposed to the standards, but not if it really compromises "performance." 



> They're not spending billions on research to replace a low wage shuttle driver. I could see heavy manufacturing areas and port operations being a target though. The crown jewel is long haul trucking.



If they're not spending billions on research to replace a low wage shuttle driver, then they're also not spending billions to replace low wage drayage and long-haul truck drivers either. I'm not sure why they're spending the money to research this, but I seem to recall that the initial push for autonomous vehicles came out of Silicon Valley, not Detroit. Silicon Valley (i.e., the software and computer industry) really doesn't understand the auto market. I think maybe they got into it because it's just a "cool" software challenge and it's sort of science-fictiony. Think Elon Musk and his Hyperloop. It's the auto industry equivalent of gadgetbahnen.


----------



## railiner

The need to transform from a mild mannered rational human being, into a bullying and aggressive driving menace, and driving the type of vehicle that fulfills that ability, must be an 'inadequacy thing', IMHO...such people need to 'grow up'. 
This is exacerbated by the generally inadequate level of driver training and education in this country. And perhaps, just a reflection of the way our society has become.


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## Metra Electric Rider

MARC Rider said:


> I think that the real role for fully autonomous vehicles is for closed-loop offroad applications like airport rental car shuttles. Those are conceptually not too much different from the currently deployed fixed-guideway people movers that seem to be working OK. And, of course, being that it's a limited range route, always returning to base frequently, it would be ideal for full electrification of the vehicles. I've even seen inductive battery chargers, where the electric bus can just sit parked at the terminal without getting plugged in, and still get the battery recharged.



Somehow I thought that something like that already existed, but can't remember where. There are tons of PRT/fixed guideway systems from West Virginia to London Heathrow.









ULTra (rapid transit) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





As an aside, I'm kind of laughing to myself at the argument of owning a leased vehicle, it's like renting an apartment.


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## joelkfla

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Somehow I thought that something like that already existed, but can't remember where.


There's an autonomous bus running in the Lake Nona development in Orlando, but currently it runs a fixed route of only a mile, has a top speed of 15mph, and has a "safety driver" on board to take control if necessary.

I think there are also driverless shuttles running in Las Vegas between the Convention Center and the strip.


Metra Electric Rider said:


> There are tons of PRT/fixed guideway systems from West Virginia to London Heathrow.


Lots of fully automated fixed guideway people movers, but just a handful of true PRT's (that is, running on individual demand.) The WV system is sometimes called Group Rapid Transit because the vehicles have the capacity of a small bus and are often shared, although they do run in PRT mode at times.


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## Qapla

There was a test vehicle running in Gainesville, Fl "in traffic" - one of the first such tests in the US. Before it could get any real tests, the Feds put an end to the tests because a similar vehicle in Ohio did a "sudden stop" and someone "slipped off the seat" ... but they still allow subways and city busses to operate even though they toss people around way more than this thing did.


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## MARC Rider

railiner said:


> The need to transform from a mild mannered rational human being, into a bullying and aggressive driving menace, and driving the type of vehicle that fulfills that ability, must be an 'inadequacy thing', IMHO...such people need to 'grow up'.
> This is exacerbated by the generally inadequate level of driver training and education in this country. And perhaps, just a reflection of the way our society has become.


Oh, I agree, but that's the way a lot of people are, and I, for one, can't see how we are all going to suddenly change our personalities. And most people with these "inadequacy" issues, aren't "bullying aggressive driving menaces," yet they respond to the cues that meet their psychological needs. And the auto industry has based their sales and marketing on exploiting that psychology. They want to make selecting a car to buy an emotional thing, so naturally, they're going to want to push all the customer's buttons that they can, and try to sell the kinds of cars that would be selected by people who have their buttons pushed in that way.

I'm not sure how more driver training and education can help with this unless it includes a full course of psychoanalysis or something.


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## Exvalley

It's also possible that the compulsion to purchase a larger vehicle than is necessary is similar to range anxiety with EVs. Specifically, people want a vehicle that will always do what they want it to do rather than something that will do 98% of what they want it to do. My work gives me either a truck or an SUV, and even though my family only needs the extra space a few times per year, it sure is nice to have on those occasions.


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## Qapla

We live in HOT Florida and A/C is nearly a must. We also need vehicles that can carry weight AND have range along with stop-and-go performance without needing any additional charge during the work day - we all use our vehicles for work and finding time to wait for a charge would not fit the work schedule.

In our area, much of it rural, there are not many places to get a charge - especially not a rapid one.

Two of my daughters pull a trailer with weights of 5,000 - 10,000 pounds trailer and cargo. Another daughter drives a cargo van hauling 4,000-6,000 pounds of cargo daily. They all may need to travel 150+ miles every day in traffic and open road.

So far we have not seen an EV that fits their need and is affordable.

I need a truck or van that can carry my tools and supplies and able to travel 130+ miles a day. Since I do not work in the same place each day, access to public chargers is not really an option and there are time when the only power available is a generator.

We are not opposed to EV's and would happily use one if there was one that did what we need and be affordable - still a little ways off from that.


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## PVD

There are a couple in the pipeline that might work, but I haven't seen pricing yet. They are pickups. I haven't looked at light trucks recently, but I think Ford has an Electric Transit Van that should be a mid 2022 intro.


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## willem

MARC Rider said:


> not accelerating as much really made a difference.



From a conservation of energy standpoint, the rate of (positive) acceleration should be irrelevant. The change in kinetic energy of a vehicle going from 30 mph to 50 mph (or any pair of numbers) is independent of the rate of change in speed. However, converting kinetic energy to heat energy is energy lost, so every use of the (traditional) brake is a ding on fuel efficiency.

In my experience, a driver who is likely to speed up quickly is likely to brake hard, so there is a correlation between lead foot driving and poor fuel efficiency, but it is changing the potential energy of fuel to thermal energy (with an intermediate stage of kinetic energy) that is a big waste.


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## Qapla

PVD said:


> There are a couple in the pipeline that might work, but I haven't seen pricing yet. They are pickups. I haven't looked at light trucks recently, but I think Ford has an Electric Transit Van that should be a mid 2022 intro.



There may be some vehicles in the planning and/or development stages that might fill the bill if-and-when they are available - providing they would be priced affordable - but my girls need those vehicles now ... not sometime in the future.

And they need vehicles that would not need recharging during the day since the recharge infrastructure does not exist in our area.

Personally, I would love to have an all electric vehicle - if it would last all day and charge quickly when needed ... and I mean, charge fully in the same time frame as it takes me to fill my gas tank.

I do NOT agree with the people who think EV's are "too quiet" and need to be made to make more noise so pedestrians who don't pay attention (like those with earbuds in) know they are there.


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## willem

Qapla said:


> I do NOT agree with the people who think EV's are "too quiet" and need to be made to make more noise so pedestrians who don't pay attention (like those with earbuds in) know they are there.



I can see (or would that be hear) your point of view. However, would you agree that electric cars need to make more noise so people with a hearing impairment know they are there?


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## Qapla

Having hearing difficulties myself - NO, I don't! 

Since I have problems hearing, I do not rely on THAT sense to keep me free from traffic problems ... I use my eyes. I know a few deaf people who also use their eyes.

When I go to cross a street, I look both ways, just like I was taught to when I was a kid - I do not just assume that I have the "right of way" and walk into the road oblivious to what is going on - like many do when they are glued to their devices or wearing earbuds.

The people who want EV's to make more noise are not the ones with hearing impairments - it is those who just don't want to pay attention.


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## Exvalley

Federal regulations require hybrids and electric vehicles travelling at less than 18.6 mph (30 km/h) to emit warning sounds that pedestrians must be able to hear over background noises.


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## railiner

Exvalley said:


> Federal regulations require hybrids and electric vehicles travelling at less than 18.6 mph (30 km/h) to emit warning sounds that pedestrians must be able to hear over background noises.


My Prius doesn't do that...if I drive slowly in EV mode, and if I turn the ventilation blowers off, at low speeds on a hard smooth surface, my car is 'silent'....


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## Exvalley

railiner said:


> My Prius doesn't do that...if I drive slowly in EV mode, and if I turn the ventilation blowers off, at low speeds on a hard smooth surface, my car is 'silent'....


It’s a fairly new regulation. I believe the final rule came out in 2018. My Bolt has a noisemaker, but it’s not that noticeable. They chose a noise that is kind of a white noise.


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## jiml

railiner said:


> The need to transform from a mild mannered rational human being, into a bullying and aggressive driving menace, and driving the type of vehicle that fulfills that ability, must be an 'inadequacy thing', IMHO...such people need to 'grow up'.


The term for males used to be "V8 _____ extension", but more recently it seems to apply equally to women. I guess "breaking through the glass ceiling" comes with wanting to drive more aggressively.


----------



## jiml

For anywhere but areas with ideal climate, the short-term answer to EV's is a hybrid of some sort. Current electric-only vehicles aren't going to perform as expected where there is heavy air-conditioner demand any more than they will in areas of extreme cold in winter. Having an internal combustion "assist" available to extend range is essential in those areas. I have a neighbor with a Volt... it is parked and covered on days when it's bitter cold and the roads are buried in snow. He's fortunate to have a second car.

I am hoping to buy a new vehicle in the next 2 years. I would love a hybrid. Some manufacturers do a clever job of hiding the actual price of them however. A "Titanium" hybrid model may be the same price as the "Titanium" gas-powered model, but may actually include several thousand dollars less options than the latter. If you even can spec them the same be prepared for sticker-shock.


----------



## me_little_me

Exvalley said:


> Federal regulations require hybrids and electric vehicles travelling at less than 18.6 mph (30 km/h) to emit warning sounds that pedestrians must be able to hear over background noises.


Now that more and more cars have pedestrian detection systems so the driver doesn't run over them, it would seem that such vehicles be allowed to (or required to) produce sound only when a pedestrian is detected. This would reduce the noise pollution created by internal combustion engines and theoretically eliminated (except for that electric whine) in electric vehicles and dramatically reduced in hybrids.


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## Exvalley

jiml said:


> Current electric-only vehicles aren't going to perform as expected where there is heavy air-conditioner demand any more than they will in areas of extreme cold in winter.


Actually, EVs perform MUCH better in hot climates than in cold climates. Air conditioning does not reduce range nearly as much as heat does. And the battery performs better in hot temperatures than in very cold temperatures.

In hot, humid weather my Chevrolet Bolt loses, at most, about 25 miles of range. On cold winter days it loses about 90 miles of range.


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## RichieRich

Trading my Yukon XL in on a new Denali XL...need the 6.2 V-8 and like the weight & size. No little toy battery car will do. Now get off my lawn!


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## leemell

willem said:


> I can see (or would that be hear) your point of view. However, would you agree that electric cars need to make more noise so people with a hearing impairment know they are there?



No, people need to pay attention to their surroundings.


----------



## Ziv

;-) I see a CyberTruck in your future! LOL!


RichieRich said:


> Trading my Yukon XL in on a new Denali XL...need the 6.2 V-8 and like the weight & size. No little toy battery car will do. Now get off my lawn!


----------



## Qapla

Ziv said:


> ;-) I see a CyberTruck in your future! LOL!



I would rather have the RT1


----------



## drdumont

Exvalley said:


> It’s a fairly new regulation. I believe the final rule came out in 2018. My Bolt has a noisemaker, but it’s not that noticeable. They chose a noise that is kind of a white noise.



ISTR the federal regulation stated that as of Sept 2019, at least 50% of EVs manufactured had to have the PWS Pedestrian Warning System which made noise at speeds under about 18 mph. All EVS made after Sept 2020 had to have it.

Interestingly enough, my two Tesla Model 3s, manufactured in Feb and Mar of 2020 make noise in reverse, but not in Drive. And to this day I can't get Tesla to explain this. 

If you want to witness this foolishness, see the YouTube video.


I've modified mine to make the Jetsons' noise, JFTHOI. It amuses the kids who play in my alley.


----------



## drdumont

me_little_me said:


> Now that more and more cars have pedestrian detection systems so the driver doesn't run over them, it would seem that such vehicles be allowed to (or required to) produce sound only when a pedestrian is detected. This would reduce the noise pollution created by internal combustion engines and theoretically eliminated (except for that electric whine) in electric vehicles and dramatically reduced in hybrids.



The Teslas are pretty much silent, except for the HVAC fans, which make about as much noise as my Buick engine at idle. There is no whine audible in either of my single motor Model 3s. I'll report back when my 3 motor is delivered.


----------



## Ziv

Rivian is the better looking vehicle, by far. And 5.5 tons of towing capacity is nothing to sneeze at. 
But Tesla is the more accomplished vehicle manufacturer at this point. 
I can see choosing either one. 
I hope to see both on the road soon.



Qapla said:


> I would rather have the RT1


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> We live in HOT Florida and A/C is nearly a must. We also need vehicles that can carry weight AND have range along with stop-and-go performance without needing any additional charge during the work day - we all use our vehicles for work and finding time to wait for a charge would not fit the work schedule.
> 
> In our area, much of it rural, there are not many places to get a charge - especially not a rapid one.
> 
> Two of my daughters pull a trailer with weights of 5,000 - 10,000 pounds trailer and cargo. Another daughter drives a cargo van hauling 4,000-6,000 pounds of cargo daily. They all may need to travel 150+ miles every day in traffic and open road.
> 
> So far we have not seen an EV that fits their need and is affordable.
> 
> I need a truck or van that can carry my tools and supplies and able to travel 130+ miles a day. Since I do not work in the same place each day, access to public chargers is not really an option and there are time when the only power available is a generator.
> 
> We are not opposed to EV's and would happily use one if there was one that did what we need and be affordable - still a little ways off from that.


Of course, EVs are not yet suitable for people living in rural areas, especially if they are in the trades and drive long distances every day. However, the vast majority of Americans live in town or suburbia and they could do very well with with both smaller, more fuel efficient ICE cars for their daily needs and EVs, whether battery or plug-n hybrid. If you really need something with super capacity for an annual road trip, well, that's what auto rental agencies are for. This sort of changeover would really reduce GHG emissions and gasoline consumption.

Of course, the long term solution is to redevelop urban/suburban America into more dense walkable communities that rely more on public transportation. People living there might only need to drive for pleasure, on weekend and vacation road trips into the country, and then they can select the type of vehicle most suitable for that particular trip and not end up driving some overpowered, oversized monster 15,000 miles every year. Of course, people in the trades and delivery vehicles will still be driving around, but there's a lot of engineering work going on with them right now. Certainly various forms of hybrids are practical and currently in use.


----------



## MARC Rider

Exvalley said:


> Federal regulations require hybrids and electric vehicles travelling at less than 18.6 mph (30 km/h) to emit warning sounds that pedestrians must be able to hear over background noises.


When did this rule come out? My 2017 RAV4 hybrid certainly doesn't do this.


----------



## Exvalley

MARC Rider said:


> When did this rule come out? My 2017 RAV4 hybrid certainly doesn't do this.


Post #79 explains it well.


----------



## drdumont

MARC Rider said:


> When did this rule come out? My 2017 RAV4 hybrid certainly doesn't do this.



Looks like 2018. Still trying to remember where I saw the actual Federal Mandate.
<EDIT> Ahh... here it is...








Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 141, Minimum Sound Requirements for Hybrid and Electric Vehicles


This document responds to petitions for reconsideration regarding NHTSA's December 2016 final rule which established new Federal motor vehicle safety standard (FMVSS) No. 141, ``Minimum sound for hybrid and electric vehicles.'' The agency received submissions from three petitioners requesting six...




www.federalregister.gov












U.S. finalizes long-delayed 'quiet cars' rule, extending deadline


The U.S. Department of Transportation on Monday finalized rules that will require "quiet cars" like electric vehicles and hybrids to emit alert sounds to warn pedestrians of their approach, extending to 2020 the deadline for full compliance.




www.reuters.com


----------



## drdumont

Exvalley said:


> Post #79 explains it well.


Thanks!


----------



## drdumont

I've resisted the Full Self Driving FUD. No way was I going to spend $7K (Now $8K) for tht "option". Although the terminology is a bit misleading, Tesla has has been pretty upfront that Full Self Driving was a work in progress, Beta software, etc. And taken quite a lot of flak for my standpoint by the rather rabid fanbois. So be it. I have so much fun driving my Model 3s, that money went to upgrading to a 4WD and bigger battery. SOmething tangible and Here Right Now.
The limited lanekeeping and a couple of the FSD features available with the standard Cruise Control are scary as Hell, not dependable, and fail at the slightest hint of faded stripes, rain, snow, etc. (Anyway, the car is too much fun to drive without that stuff).
I rather doubt that Fully Autonomous Driverless vehicles will be a staple in my lifetime. It is my fervent wish that it be so. 
It is also my fervent wish for the return of 7 Days a Week Service, Chefs, Galleys and Dining service, The Sunset going all the way to Florida, and the Dallas - Meridian connection will actually happen.
An old man can dream, can't one?


----------



## drdumont

Qapla said:


> We live in HOT Florida and A/C is nearly a must. We also need vehicles that can carry weight AND have range along with stop-and-go performance without needing any additional charge during the work day - we all use our vehicles for work and finding time to wait for a charge would not fit the work schedule.
> 
> In our area, much of it rural, there are not many places to get a charge - especially not a rapid one.
> 
> Two of my daughters pull a trailer with weights of 5,000 - 10,000 pounds trailer and cargo. Another daughter drives a cargo van hauling 4,000-6,000 pounds of cargo daily. They all may need to travel 150+ miles every day in traffic and open road.
> 
> So far we have not seen an EV that fits their need and is affordable.
> 
> I need a truck or van that can carry my tools and supplies and able to travel 130+ miles a day. Since I do not work in the same place each day, access to public chargers is not really an option and there are time when the only power available is a generator.
> 
> We are not opposed to EV's and would happily use one if there was one that did what we need and be affordable - still a little ways off from that.



One of the most calm, rational and well spelled out opinions on why someone hasn't bought an Electric Vehicle. There is no One Size Fits All solution. Thanks for a ray of sunshine.


----------



## Bob Dylan

A friend of mine had the regular 12 Volt Battery die in her 2017 Prius,. 

The Service Manager @ the Toyota Dealer where she bought it, told her under no circumstances try to "jump" start the car.

It had to be towed to the dealer ( covered by AAA)and a New 84 Month " Prius 12 Volt Battery" ( her Warranty didnt cover this)plus reprogramming her Smart Key cost her $389!!!

Sounds excessive to me, does anyone with a Prius have any info on this???


----------



## PVD

There are plenty of "how to jump start a Prius" videos out there, so people certainly do it, I don't know off the top of my head if it is sanctioned by Toyota. Next time I talk to my sister and brother in law I'll ask, they each have one, and this in Bob's second.


----------



## PVD

August 10th I'm delivering on lecture on battery technology and its importance to the energy storage capabilities needed to make renewable energy sources increasingly useful. The following week, tag team with reps from the NY Power Authority who deliver an electric car presentation, after which I do trucks and buses and the need for understanding the infrastructure requirements. (The class is made up of year 5 students in an electrical apprenticeship program) NYPA used to bring cars and we pawed over them in the garage under our training center, but in the covid era it will be a Zoom webinar.


----------



## railiner

Bob Dylan said:


> A friend of mine had the regular 12 Volt Battery die in her 2017 Prius,.
> 
> The Service Manager @ the Toyota Dealer where she bought it, told her under no circumstances try to "jump" start the car.
> 
> It had to be towed to the dealer ( covered by AAA)and a New 84 Month " Prius 12 Volt Battery" ( her Warranty didnt cover this)plus reprogramming her Smart Key cost her $389!!!
> 
> Sounds excessive to me, does anyone with a Prius have any info on this???


I had a 2004, and now a 2010. The 12 volt battery is located below the cargo area, but the owner's manual has clear instruction's on how to jump start the car.
Under the hood on the driver's side is a plastic cover near the windshield on the driver's side, that snaps off. There is a small jumper terminal under a spring loaded cover that you connect the positive cable to, and the negative cable goes to any convenient ground. I have done this twice in 16 years.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

willem said:


> I can see (or would that be hear) your point of view. However, would you agree that electric cars need to make more noise so people with a hearing impairment know they are there?


Modern combustion engines can _also_ make little or no discernible sound above tire noise at slow speeds. I’ve personally startled hundreds of people for this very reason. The claim that electric vehicles are _uniquely_ dangerous where and how road vehicles are typically encountered by pedestrians is a myth.



jiml said:


> For anywhere but areas with ideal climate, the short-term answer to EV's is a hybrid of some sort. Current electric-only vehicles aren't going to perform as expected where there is heavy air-conditioner demand any more than they will in areas of extreme cold in winter. Having an internal combustion "assist" available to extend range is essential in those areas.


I live where highs of 100F and above are common and electric vehicles do just fine here.



Bob Dylan said:


> A friend of mine had the regular 12 Volt Battery die in her 2017 Prius,. The Service Manager @ the Toyota Dealer where she bought it, told her under no circumstances try to "jump" start the car. It had to be towed to the dealer ( covered by AAA)and a New 84 Month " Prius 12 Volt Battery" ( her Warranty didnt cover this)plus reprogramming her Smart Key cost her $389!!! Sounds excessive to me, does anyone with a Prius have any info on this???


What part of the battery troubleshooting process involves calling the dealership for permission to jump? I'm not a fan of the Prius but they're not so delicate that they need to be towed everywhere. I think this result is down to the dealer being scummy and the owner being an easy mark.


----------



## AGM.12

My concern with electric vehicles is that, once the use of them is widespread, when many people plug in to recharge at one time, would the power grid be able to handle the load without constant brownouts?


----------



## drdumont

_Re AGM.12's concern about recharging EVs causing massive brownouts:_

Today's power grid is a marvel of monitoring and control. Load sharing, distribution and management systems take care of the constantly varying demand caused by weather, even sporting events.
The solar power industry is progressing with new technology and efficiency, and many folks take advantage of this where they can, to charge their vehicles with no impact upon the public grid. Solar power is saved in battery banks for use on demand - usually at night when many folks do their nightly recharge. 
There are Tesla Superchargers which use massive solar arrays on the roof to reduce load on "the Grid".
The "EV caused brownout" is more FUD postulated by the EV haters. 
There is always a tradeoff. Less fuel dispensers, pumps, lighting at filling stations, and so forth offset by chargers. Each little increment contributes.
How about huge long arrays of solar panels on the railroad rights of way? Maybe even atop the passenger cars to shed a little HEP power load? 
I doubt there will ever be a battery powered railroad engine, but getting catenary rilroad power from hydro has been a fact for years.
Things tend to even out over time.


----------



## Barb Stout

Bob Dylan said:


> A friend of mine had the regular 12 Volt Battery die in her 2017 Prius,.
> 
> The Service Manager @ the Toyota Dealer where she bought it, told her under no circumstances try to "jump" start the car.
> 
> It had to be towed to the dealer ( covered by AAA)and a New 84 Month " Prius 12 Volt Battery" ( her Warranty didnt cover this)plus reprogramming her Smart Key cost her $389!!!
> 
> Sounds excessive to me, does anyone with a Prius have any info on this???


I have a Prius. A couple of years ago I lost my key and had to get a replacement. $300. The next day I found the old one, of course. Also, in order to extend my warranty, I had to purchase a yearly maintenance contract for several hundred dollars. Then the few times that something did go wrong, oh no, the warranty doesn't cover it. So I don't get extended warranties or maintenance contracts any more.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Barb Stout said:


> I have a Prius. A couple of years ago I lost my key and had to get a replacement. $300. The next day I found the old one, of course. Also, in order to extend my warranty, I had to purchase a yearly maintenance contract for several hundred dollars. Then the few times that something did go wrong, oh no, the warranty doesn't cover it. So I don't get extended warranties or maintenance contracts any more.


This seems to be standard practice for most "extended warranties" which are really another way for salespersons and companies to increase their profit!


----------



## PVD

Long or extended warranties exist primarily for 2 reasons. They may be highly profitable items to add on a sale, or a tool to get people to buy something they might not otherwise. When Hyundai first hit the US market large scale, they had a bad reputation for reliability. Even though they were cheap, people were reluctant to buy because of repairs. They did 2 things, one was working hard to improve quality, and the other was provide a 10 year 100K mile warranty. If you bought one of their cars you didn't sweat as much about repairs. It worked, over time they drastically improved the quality, and the warranty is now 5 years/60k which is still somewhat higher than industry standard, but way less than the original. And they aren't so cheap anymore.


----------



## railiner

I wouldn't ever consider getting an extended warranty. I make my new purchases, partly on the researched reliability of the product I am buying. The standard warranty is good enough to cover any defects that immediately appear, and once the warranty expires, if you performed all required preventive maintenance, your product should last you a long time. 
My 2010 Prius came with a 3 year bumper to bumper warranty, and a 5 year power train and corrosion warranty. The hybrid components have an 8 year warranty, and the hybrid battery a ten year warranty, now. 
My car, which will be 11 years old in November, is as reliable as the day I brought it home.

The money you save each year, by not buying an extended warranty, will more than likely more than cover whatever repairs become necessary at the car ages, until it has served its useful life. In a sense, this is like being "self-insured".


----------



## PVD

Toyotas in general have a good reputation for reliability.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AGM.12 said:


> My concern with electric vehicles is that, once the use of them is widespread, when many people plug in to recharge at one time, would the power grid be able to handle the load without constant brownouts?


Personal electric vehicles barely use any energy compared a common industrial plant. Even the fastest superchargers only operate at maximum capacity for a few minutes per vehicle. These peak loads can be mitigated with commercial batteries. If we get to the point where vast fleets of heavy commercial vehicles become fully electrified then upgrades will be required between the commercial charging systems and associated substations, but building those fleets will take time and such upgrades should not be disruptive enough to cause serious problems to an otherwise functional power grid.



Bob Dylan said:


> This seems to be standard practice for most "extended warranties" which are really another way for salespersons and companies to increase their profit!


I personally think everyone should take a job as a salesperson early in their working life. Not because it's a great job but because it teaches you important lessons on how to avoid being taken for a ride.


----------



## sttom

AGM.12 said:


> My concern with electric vehicles is that, once the use of them is widespread, when many people plug in to recharge at one time, would the power grid be able to handle the load without constant brownouts?


My main concern with the batteries would be the mining of materials to make the battery, the manufacture of the batteries and the disposal of the batteries more than the charging of the batteries. Cobalt and lithium mining aren't environmentally friendly and they are relatively rare metals to begin with. The recycling of lithium ion batteries is also in its infancy so having millions of them get made for cars every year will mean millions of battery packs that we may or may not be able to reuse or recycle after the car has reached the end of its life cycle. Which is going to be a massive problem in the not to distant future. 

Dealing with the spikes in energy demand are far easier to deal with than recycling or reusing an item that aren't currently designed to be recycled. Power demand tends to increase slowly overtime, we can factor in extra demand if we plan for it. Which is a big if in the US, but its not impossible to factor in. Also, reducing energy demand of other industries could also be factored in. It takes a lot of energy (and pollution) to create petroleum products. If we need less of them, we will be using less energy.


----------



## Exvalley

My level 2 charger was free from my local electrical utility. But there is a catch. They can regulate the power usage during periods of peak demand. Since we charge the car overnight it's really not a big deal. I would be shocked if they ever actually intervene. The charger was $600 so it was a fair trade.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

sttom said:


> Cobalt and lithium mining aren't environmentally friendly and they are relatively rare metals to begin with. The recycling of lithium ion batteries is also in its infancy so having millions of them get made for cars every year will mean millions of battery packs that we may or may not be able to reuse or recycle after the car has reached the end of its life cycle. Which is going to be a massive problem in the not to distant future.


Many of the problems people associate with electric cars can also be attributed to more conventional products. For instance cobalt is consumed in far greater amounts when refining fossil fuels for use with combustion engines and lithium batteries are used in millions of other products that suffer no meaningful criticism. Unlike the entrenched combustion engine industry electric vehicle manufacturers are working toward cobalt-free designs in future models. Modern electric vehicle batteries are designed to last around a decade with a 20% total power loss and be recycled en masse thereafter while most other lithium batteries degrade much faster and are quietly tossed in the trash without so much as a peep.


----------



## PVD

Battery tech companies and research labs are very busy at work looking at advances in battery chemistry, to increase energy density, lower (think hard to put out fire) risks, and to use materials that are more favorable environmentally, at both ends of the lifecycle. Another topic discussed at the last battery conference I attended (guess I won't see one of those except online for a while) was sourcing materials that are not only better environmentally, but socially, because of the labor and working conditions as well as concerns about government stability in some areas. Lots going on in the labs....


----------



## daybeers

drdumont said:


> _Re AGM.12's concern about recharging EVs causing massive brownouts:_
> 
> Today's power grid is a marvel of monitoring and control. Load sharing, distribution and management systems take care of the constantly varying demand caused by weather, even sporting events.
> The solar power industry is progressing with new technology and efficiency, and many folks take advantage of this where they can, to charge their vehicles with no impact upon the public grid. Solar power is saved in battery banks for use on demand - usually at night when many folks do their nightly recharge.
> There are Tesla Superchargers which use massive solar arrays on the roof to reduce load on "the Grid".
> The "EV caused brownout" is more FUD postulated by the EV haters.
> There is always a tradeoff. Less fuel dispensers, pumps, lighting at filling stations, and so forth offset by chargers. Each little increment contributes.
> How about huge long arrays of solar panels on the railroad rights of way? Maybe even atop the passenger cars to shed a little HEP power load?
> I doubt there will ever be a battery powered railroad engine, but getting catenary rilroad power from hydro has been a fact for years.
> Things tend to even out over time.


There is actually a solar-powered train in Australia: Byron Bay Train
"The train operates on energy from the sun. 73% of the energy generated from solar panels on the train and train storage shed is fed into the grid. The remainder is used to operate the train."


----------



## sttom

Devil's Advocate said:


> Many of the problems people associate with electric cars can also be attributed to more conventional products. For instance cobalt is consumed in far greater amounts when refining fossil fuels for use with combustion engines and lithium batteries are used in millions of other products that suffer no meaningful criticism. Unlike the entrenched combustion engine industry electric vehicle manufacturers are working toward cobalt-free designs in future models. Modern electric vehicle batteries are designed to last around a decade with a 20% total power loss and be recycled en masse thereafter while most other lithium batteries degrade much faster and are quietly tossed in the trash without so much as a peep.


We don't criticize the general use of lithium ion batteries more from an "out of sight, out of mind" perspective. The sad truth is we don't recycle rechargable batteries at scale, so they aren't designed to be recycled as well as they should be. Companies in the last few years have started thinking about what to do with all the all the batteries, but that's no guarantee there won't be multiple methods of designing and recycling batteries that are functionally the same, but slightly different just to cause problems. And this as a problem runs up against our inability to think about things in the long term.


----------



## Asher

willem said:


> I can see (or would that be hear) your point of view. However, would you agree that electric cars need to make more noise so people with a hearing impairment know they are there?


It's not only people with a hearing impairment that may have a problem, the blind also use crosswalks and have a dependency on hearing a vehicle.


----------



## Qapla

In most of the articles I read - the people who complained the most were not the impaired ... it was those with electronic devices


----------



## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> A friend of mine had the regular 12 Volt Battery die in her 2017 Prius,.
> 
> The Service Manager @ the Toyota Dealer where she bought it, told her under no circumstances try to "jump" start the car.
> 
> It had to be towed to the dealer ( covered by AAA)and a New 84 Month " Prius 12 Volt Battery" ( her Warranty didn't cover this) plus reprogramming her Smart Key cost her $389!!!
> 
> Sounds excessive to me, does anyone with a Prius have any info on this???


Pure garbage from the dealer! The 12V battery is simply an AGM one that even the AAA will "jump" for you. The difference is, you don't jumpstart the car, you give the battery enough of a charge to turn on the computer which then brings up the 250V battery which starts the car and recharges the 12V battery fully.

I have "jumpstarted" both my hybrids multiple times when they ran down because I left something on (12V battery powers lights, other electrical stuff) and 250V battery said it had to protect itself so it would no longer keep charging a battery that, until the issue was fixed, would keep draining.

I haven't checked the Prius charging but the Camry Hybrid can be encouraged to give the 12V battery enough of a charge from the 250V one in most cases by following a technique described in the manual.

When my 12 y/o Camry 12V battery died in May (had a dead cell), it was 12 years old. The 8/yo Prius is still going strong.

In no case (even when changing the Camry battery) did I have to reprogram the keys.

While the dealers charge a lot of money for their 12V batteries for the hybrids, they are still not cheap. A good AGM battery (I used Optima, considered top of the line) is $150+ and one with a vent tube (needed if battery is in enclosed place like trunk or passenger compartment) is at the high end. AGMs are sealed and can't spill acid but if overcharged, need a vent to avoid exploding. By the way, the charged battery was shipped to me via Priority Mail and was in every imaginable position in shipment, I am sure. It was on its side when dropped off at my front door.

Most times, even when "discharged", the system has enough oomph to keep the critical things alive such as key programming. And if the system is put on a temporary (very small one needed) 12V battery to keep up that life while changing the regular battery out, there should be less of a problem. I didn't bother as I didn't have a battery to plug into the cigarette lighter port (the typical way to keep 12V alive) and had no problem. I didn't even have to "reprogram" the tire pressure monitors. Everything came up fine.

It is really important for hybrid car owners to read their owner's manual closely as the car, having a 250V battery in addition to the 12V one, often has techniques to recover from a "dead" 12V battery or fob battery. More important is to read the forums which have outstanding information about their car even if one never plans to to do the work themselves. I rarely do things myself. However, when I found out in a forum a few years after buying it that my old Camry could be retrofitted with an "intergrated" (in existing NAV system) backup camera, I ordered the camera, downloaded the detailed (with color pictures) 12 page guide to installing it and took it to a local guy who did stereo installs. He said it was the easiest, best guide he'd seen and his charge was a lot less than if he had to start from ground zero.

And when I bought the Camry battery online in May, it came with a detailed instruction including removing and re-attaching both the vent tube as well as the battery temperature sensor which prevents the overcharging issue if the charging system goes wild which was provided by a company that sells only that battery and only for the Camry Hybrid. I installed it myself but could have taken it to my mechanic so he would have known what special things to do - and at a lot lower price than the dealer.


----------



## me_little_me

sttom said:


> My main concern with the batteries would be the mining of materials to make the battery, the manufacture of the batteries and the disposal of the batteries more than the charging of the batteries. Cobalt and lithium mining aren't environmentally friendly and they are relatively rare metals to begin with. The recycling of lithium ion batteries is also in its infancy so having millions of them get made for cars every year will mean millions of battery packs that we may or may not be able to reuse or recycle after the car has reached the end of its life cycle. Which is going to be a massive problem in the not to distant future.


A few comments:

When the hybrids first came out and they had a battery failure, the whole battery was replaced. That was very expensive and gave somewhat of a black eye to hybrid costs. That was one of the reasons why the hybrid systems were given 10 year/100K mile warranties.

Now, they just change out individual cells. 

However, for hybrids and electrics, their biggest problem is that they ban slowly lose their ability to be charged as fully and won't get as many electric miles. But there are other uses found for those weakened batteries including storage for solar panels or windmills. I've always been a proponent of "You make it. You take it back" for plastics, batteries, CFL bulbs, etc. If manufacturers were forced to take back the dead products they once produced, they would have a big incentive to better make them or to figure out an economical way to reuse them. A lot of old computers which, in the days of wooden ships and iron men, contained gold plated connections and in poor countries they were well worth recycling years later because, while the amount of gold (and silver and other metals) was small, $2K/ounce of gold was a high price to get even for small amounts. I have an early 1973 HP45 calculator that while worth nothing as an electronics item and little except to a specialty collector, is worth a lot more just for the gold in it.


----------



## railiner

me_little_me said:


> Pure garbage from the dealer! The 12V battery is simply an AGM one that even the AAA will "jump" for you. The difference is, you don't jumpstart the car, you give the battery enough of a charge to turn on the computer which then brings up the 250V battery which starts the car and recharges the 12V battery fully.
> 
> I have "jumpstarted" both my hybrids multiple times when they ran down because I left something on (12V battery powers lights, other electrical stuff) and 250V battery said it had to protect itself so it would no longer keep charging a battery that, until the issue was fixed, would keep draining.
> 
> I haven't checked the Prius charging but the Camry Hybrid can be encouraged to give the 12V battery enough of a charge from the 250V one in most cases by following a technique described in the manual.
> 
> When my 12 y/o Camry 12V battery died in May (had a dead cell), it was 12 years old. The 8/yo Prius is still going strong.
> 
> In no case (even when changing the Camry battery) did I have to reprogram the keys.
> 
> While the dealers charge a lot of money for their 12V batteries for the hybrids, they are still not cheap. A good AGM battery (I used Optima, considered top of the line) is $150+ and one with a vent tube (needed if battery is in enclosed place like trunk or passenger compartment) is at the high end. AGMs are sealed and can't spill acid but if overcharged, need a vent to avoid exploding. By the way, the charged battery was shipped to me via Priority Mail and was in every imaginable position in shipment, I am sure. It was on its side when dropped off at my front door.
> 
> Most times, even when "discharged", the system has enough oomph to keep the critical things alive such as key programming. And if the system is put on a temporary (very small one needed) 12V battery to keep up that life while changing the regular battery out, there should be less of a problem. I didn't bother as I didn't have a battery to plug into the cigarette lighter port (the typical way to keep 12V alive) and had no problem. I didn't even have to "reprogram" the tire pressure monitors. Everything came up fine.
> 
> It is really important for hybrid car owners to read their owner's manual closely as the car, having a 250V battery in addition to the 12V one, often has techniques to recover from a "dead" 12V battery or fob battery. More important is to read the forums which have outstanding information about their car even if one never plans to to do the work themselves. I rarely do things myself. However, when I found out in a forum a few years after buying it that my old Camry could be retrofitted with an "intergrated" (in existing NAV system) backup camera, I ordered the camera, downloaded the detailed (with color pictures) 12 page guide to installing it and took it to a local guy who did stereo installs. He said it was the easiest, best guide he'd seen and his charge was a lot less than if he had to start from ground zero.
> 
> And when I bought the Camry battery online in May, it came with a detailed instruction including removing and re-attaching both the vent tube as well as the battery temperature sensor which prevents the overcharging issue if the charging system goes wild which was provided by a company that sells only that battery and only for the Camry Hybrid. I installed it myself but could have taken it to my mechanic so he would have known what special things to do - and at a lot lower price than the dealer.


Interesting info...
I had two occasion's that my 12v battery died thru the years, and I didn't find any way in the manual, to tap energy from the traction battery to 'jump' the 12 v battery. I asked on the Prius Chat forum if any one knew a workaround, and no one came up with one. I just keep one of those portable jumper packs down in the lower storage area, just in case...
So now there is a way?


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## Ryan

No, you need to jump it from something else.


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## me_little_me

railiner said:


> Interesting info...
> I had two occasion's that my 12v battery died thru the years, and I didn't find any way in the manual, to tap energy from the traction battery to 'jump' the 12 v battery. I asked on the Prius Chat forum if any one knew a workaround, and no one came up with one. I just keep one of those portable jumper packs down in the lower storage area, just in case...
> So now there is a way?


You don't "Jump" it - it's not like you connect cables. This is a summary of what my Camry Hybrid manual said (and I used it successfully when the 12V battery had run down).
_*Set Parking Brake. Shift to Park. Turn Power Switch to Accessory. Press and hold Power switch for 15 seconds while depressing brake.* _In actuality 
what I did was to press button w/o brake to put it in Accesory mode (orange light) then then release then hold the button in for 15 seconds with brake depressed. Normally, a momentary press starts the system (green light) when foot is on brake initially. In this case light went orange for some seconds then turned green. Apparently, the instructions were written before buttons were used in lieu of turning key.

Note that it actually started up the system but the engine didn't start. Because it was raining and had only, a few minutes before been knocked down in a crosswalk by a driver who did not stop (I was unhurt), I momentarily forgot that the engine only starts went needed. So I thought it failed. Turned off the Power and tried again. Same thing happened so I turned it off. Then it hit me that I had been successful and so tried it again. This time it would not start but by then AAA had shown up and jump-started my 12V battery with a portable battery unit. Note, they knew exactly how to handle a hybrid.

Also note, it is best not to "jump" a 12V hybrid car battery from another car. Just use a separate battery or use a charger set to 10A (for ten minutes) to give your 12V enough juice the wake up the computer that engages the hybrid battery. The hybrid battery will recharge the 12V one if you run the car for a bit. Unlike a regular car, there is no high current starter motor used so no high power cables are needed. I'm sure even one of those batteries that you plug into the cigarette lighter ( aka Accessory port) that claim to start your car would work fine as the current needed is not high.


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