# Midwest Venture introduction



## ShiningTimeStL

In his latest video which covered a pre-covid trip on the MO River Runner, French Youtuber "Simply Railway" says the latest rumor is that the midwest Velaro cars could go into service by this August. That's about a month away. I find this at least a little hard to believe, but I want to. Does anybody have any idea when they're supposed to start rolling? I would think we'd be seeing more test trains, and there haven't been any cab cars spotted yet, if those are even still in the plan.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Delay due lead in the water system.


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## Anthony V

FYI, these new railcars are branded as "Venture", not "Velaro"


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## EchoSierra

Can't wait until they go into service! A Charger pulling a full set of these would look slick!


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## NSC1109

ShiningTimeStL said:


> In his latest video which covered a pre-covid trip on the MO River Runner, French Youtuber "Simply Railway" says the latest rumor is that the midwest Velaro cars could go into service by this August. That's about a month away. I find this at least a little hard to believe, but I want to. Does anybody have any idea when they're supposed to start rolling? I would think we'd be seeing more test trains, and there haven't been any cab cars spotted yet, if those are even still in the plan.



Midwest didn’t order cab cars. And there’s really only so much testing one can do. Easier to deadhead the crews into Chicago for training than ship test trains to them.


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## PerRock

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Delay due lead in the water system.



Yup until the lead issue is sorted out, those trainsets are stuck in BG for the time being.

peter


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## PVD

First thing is to identify the source. It is entirely possible that fittings they would purchase and install (rather than make in house) were not manufactured to spec. Plumbing items like valves or faucets. Or even solder that was used in assembly. Remember,, a large part of building a railcar is putting together pieces made by someone else.


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## MikefromCrete

Right it not like Siemens manufactures the plumbing parts. They need to determine the source of the problem and retrofit the pipes or other parts.


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## jis

Apparently a solution/fix for the problem has been agreed upon. Now it is a question of applying them and then passing the test.



https://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/the-public-eye/article251732083.html


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## west point

Shade tree vendor. Possible from China ?


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## MisterUptempo

Did the Brightline Venture coaches report the same problem with lead? If not, is it possible that Sumitomo, as contractor, or Siemens engaged in a little bit of "value engineering"? Did Caltrans approve of any changes to the fixtures?


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## DGHoosee

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Delay due lead in the water system.


No additional word??

Still no sign of them here in Chicago. How could lead in the water supply possibly be an issue with new cars? They install the wrong piping in these things? Just seems crazy that brand new equipment is sitting idle for this long. Dying to take a ride on them.


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## Just-Thinking-51

DGHoosee said:


> How could lead in the water supply possibly be an issue with new cars? They install the wrong piping in these things?


Imported parts from a country that has lacking or low safety standards, or just does understand the “why” and is more focus on the cost per unit.


> Just seems crazy that brand new equipment is sitting idle for this long.


VIA has a set of equipment getting delivery video on YouTube.


> Dying to take a ride on them.


No, I think lead poisoning is more brain fog than death.


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## Cal

Brightline just had a set delivered too.


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## DGHoosee

Cal said:


> Brightline just had a set delivered too.


Yes..saw that train set. Beautiful!


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## Mailliw

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> ...
> No, I think lead poisoning is more brain fog than death.


It's easy pretty easy to avoid; just don't drink tap water on-board.


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## DGHoosee

Here’s my take: The lead content in the water exceeds some arbitrary number made up by the state of California, when in fact, it’s probably safe. You’ll only have a CHANCE to be exposed to excessive amounts of lead if you’re LIVING on the train and drinking 18-gallons of water per day. 

GET THOSE CARS IN SERVICE!!!!!


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## Wolverine72

Say they blew this off and the public found out ten years from now.


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## MikefromCrete

DGHoosee said:


> Here’s my take: The lead content in the water exceeds some arbitrary number made up by the state of California, when in fact, it’s probably safe. You’ll only have a CHANCE to be exposed to excessive amounts of lead if you’re LIVING on the train and drinking 18-gallons of water per day.
> 
> GET THOSE CARS IN SERVICE!!!!!



You do realize that if someone got sick from drinking the water, Amtrak, Siemens, California, Illinois and some bystanders would be sued for all the money in the world. You can't deliberatly expose people to dangers that you know about.


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## 20th Century Rider

ShiningTimeStL said:


> In his latest video which covered a pre-covid trip on the MO River Runner, French Youtuber "Simply Railway" says the latest rumor is that the midwest Velaro cars could go into service by this August. That's about a month away. I find this at least a little hard to believe, but I want to. Does anybody have any idea when they're supposed to start rolling? I would think we'd be seeing more test trains, and there haven't been any cab cars spotted yet, if those are even still in the plan.


Just got off the train from Jefferson City - St. Louis - really old and falling apart... seats broken, bathrooms in disarray etc... new cars can't come quickly enough... although that could be said about the entire Amtrak rolling stock; especially the Superliners!


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## DGHoosee

MikefromCrete said:


> You do realize that if someone got sick from drinking the water, Amtrak, Siemens, California, Illinois and some bystanders would be sued for all the money in the world. You can't deliberatly expose people to dangers that you know about.


My tongue was firmly planted in my cheek ; no one would want to be knowingly exposed to unsafe levels of ANYTHING, and yes, Amtrak certainty doesn’t want to risk a lawsuit over lead-laced water. But my desire to see the new cars rolling remains; my wife and I live on the BNSF line here in Downers, and I had a chance to see them roll pat our back yard. Looked fantastic!


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## west point

What is strange is that the original Brightline train sets have not been reported as having lead. Also who is responsible for the cars in Illinois maintenance. Is it Amtrak or some state agency. Has any work started to mitigate the problem ?


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## MikefromCrete

west point said:


> What is strange is that the original Brightline train sets have not been reported as having lead.Also who is responsible for the cars in Illinois maintenance. Is it Amtrak or some state agency. Has any work started to mitigate the problem ?



This doesn't have anything to do with maintenance. It's the way they came out of the factory.


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## west point

Again if the cars came out of the factory who is responsible to mitigate the problem. The silence is is very loud.


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## toddinde

20th Century Rider said:


> Just got off the train from Jefferson City - St. Louis - really old and falling apart... seats broken, bathrooms in disarray etc... new cars can't come quickly enough... although that could be said about the entire Amtrak rolling stock; especially the Superliners!


The Horizon’s have always been pretty crappy though I’ve ridden them so much I’m kind of fond of them. Used to love getting on the Hoosier at 5:45 or so and getting to Indy around midnight just in time for last call. We’ll miss them when they’re gone.


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## Ryan

west point said:


> Again if the cars came out of the factory who is responsible to mitigate the problem. The silence is is very loud.


That's because it's really not any of our business.


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## DGHoosee

Ryan said:


> That's because it's really not any of our business.


Getting a little warm in here….. 
Didn’t mean to raise everyone’s hackles; was just wondering if anyone had heard when those beautiful cars would be going into service. I’m sure Amtrak is itching to have them running and generating


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## Sani

I'm looking forward to taking the new Venture cars on the Missouri River Runner, hopefully in the spring. It would be nice to take my kids to stay with relatives in St. Louis without having to brave the sleep-deprived truckers on I-70, and once the I-70 Rocheport Bridge project gets underway in earnest next year, it'll take five hours to get from Lee's Summit to Chesterfield anyway.


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## 9900

Unfortunately you’ll only have one River runner round trip next year for your trip….


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## ShiningTimeStL

9900 said:


> Unfortunately you’ll only have one River runner round trip next year for your trip….


There's discussion of possibly reviving the Ann Rutledge to remedy this, or adjusting the schedule to have higher frequencies on weekends while cutting some weekdays.


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## Bob Dylan

9900 said:


> Unfortunately you’ll only have one River runner round trip next year for your trip….


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## Just-Thinking-51

Sani said:


> I'm looking forward to taking the new Venture cars on the Missouri River Runner, hopefully in the spring. It would be nice to take my kids to stay with relatives in St. Louis without having to brave the sleep-deprived truckers on I-70, and once the I-70 Rocheport Bridge project gets underway in earnest next year, it'll take five hours to get from Lee's Summit to Chesterfield anyway.



There a easy bypass of that bridge. Of course everyone will be using it.


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## jis

According to some reports emanating from today's Section 305 Meeting, Siemens Venture Cars will start operating on Lincoln Service starting this coming week (Jan 31). Of course with these things one never know for sure until it actually happens


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## Cal

jis said:


> According to some reports emanating from today's Section 305 Meeting, Siemens Venture Cars will start operating on Lincoln Service starting this coming week (Jan 31). Of course with these things one never know for sure until it actually happens


Hopefully, if it does happen, an AU'er will be there to give us a first-hand look


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## Steve4031

Cal said:


> Hopefully, if it does happen, an AU'er will be there to give us a first-hand look



I volunteer.


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## daybeers

Steve4031 said:


> I volunteer.


What a sacrifice for us all!


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## Cal

Steve4031 said:


> I volunteer.


I envy you, hope they are put into service!


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## west point

jis said:


> According to some reports emanating from today's Section 305 Meeting, Siemens Venture Cars will start operating on Lincoln Service starting this coming week (Jan 31). Of course with these things one never know for sure until it actually happens


I hope that the potable water situation was covered. When will the full minutes come out?


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## jiml

west point said:


> I hope that the potable water situation was covered. When will the full minutes come out?


Am I the only one who thinks it's odd that the Amtrak cars had this problem, yet the VIA and Brightline ones did not?


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## PVD

They are not Amtrak cars. They are cars spec'd, bought and owned by the States that happen to contract with Amtrak for their operation.


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## jiml

PVD said:


> They are not Amtrak cars. They are cars spec'd, bought and owned by the States that happen to contract with Amtrak for their operation.


Of course you're correct, but no passenger will make that distinction.


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## PVD

No doubt. But it is different than something like Empire Service in NY where NY pays to use Amfleet cars owned by Amtrak.


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## Cal

jiml said:


> Am I the only one who thinks it's odd that the Amtrak cars had this problem, yet the VIA and Brightline ones did not?


No, you're not. Maybe they were made in batches and Amtrak got the bad batch?


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## SubwayNut

Cal said:


> No, you're not. Maybe they were made in batches and Amtrak got the bad batch?



The Amtrak cars had to meet specific Made in America requirements including using US steel because of Federal Funding rules, this was not the case for VIA or Brightline who didn't have to meet these requirements.


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## MARC Rider

SubwayNut said:


> The Amtrak cars had to meet specific Made in America requirements including using US steel because of Federal Funding rules, this was not the case for VIA or Brightline who didn't have to meet these requirements.


Ah so... it seems that the problem with the potable water wasn't due to some sort of inferior imported plumbing components, after all.


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## Burns651

I like the bigger windows, but will reserve final judgement until I actually sit down and find out if the seats are comfortable, which by no means will be a given.


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## Cal

Burns651 said:


> I like the bigger windows, but will reserve final judgement until I actually sit down and find out if the seats are comfortable, which by no means will be a given.


They look a lot less comfortable IMO, and I think I'd prefer bigger seats and smaller aisles than vise versa.


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## Ryan

MARC Rider said:


> Ah so... it seems that the problem with the potable water wasn't due to some sort of inferior imported plumbing components, after all.


Not necessarily. A US-based supplier for plumbing subassemblies could well have been the victim of imported crap plumbing parts where a different supplier wouldn't have.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

Cal said:


> They look a lot less comfortable IMO, and I think I'd prefer bigger seats and smaller aisles than vise versa.


Maybe wider aisles for wheelchair access? Which would be a good thing.

I guess we will have to wait until our seat expert Simply Railway checks them out


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## MARC Rider

Ryan said:


> Not necessarily. A US-based supplier for plumbing subassemblies could well have been the victim of imported crap plumbing parts where a different supplier wouldn't have.


So it's possible that something can meet the made-in-USA requirements, yet still be made of imported components?


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## jis

MARC Rider said:


> So it's possible that something can meet the made-in-USA requirements, yet still be made of imported components?


It is possible. One has to meet the overall foreign content threshold to meet the domestic requirement. I don't know what the current requirements are.

Incidentally, as an aside, the Brightline cars do meet the domestic content requirement, so I don't think that has much bearing on why the Midwest/Cali order got borked. Just different suppliers of some plumbing parts, or a bad batch or something like that.


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## joelkfla

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Maybe wider aisles for wheelchair access? Which would be a good thing.


Yes, same as Brightline.


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## MikefromCrete

joelkfla said:


> Yes, same as Brightline.


 So everybody should be uncomfortable in smaller seats in order for very few people to get down the aisle easier?


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## PVD

1. They will still be wider than a coach seat on an airplane, and are unlikely to be uncomfortable for regular sized people. 2. Mobility limited people have no less of a right to get down the aisle than anyone else, it is the law.


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## Cal

I will say these look uncomfortable so far.


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## SarahZ

I love that the arm rests can be raised.


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## SubwayNut

Any one actually have the seat dimensions? Width I'm particularly curious about.


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## Willbridge

SubwayNut said:


> Any one actually have the seat dimensions? Width I'm particularly curious about.


In the streamliner era, for comparison seen below, a typical pair of coach seats had outside measurements of 43 inches. I think that some space is saved in modern seats by making the sides more compact than in the old days.


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## joelkfla

Several sources say Brightline's seats are 19" wide.


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## PVD

19" width is the number I've seen as well. That is anywhere from 1/2" to 2 inches above typical airline coach. But to be fair, regardless of width, seat design contributes to comfort and there are good and bad seats for lots of reasons.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> Several sources say Brightline's seats are 19" wide.


On Brightline Smart seats are 19” wide 2x2 and Select seats are 21” wide 2x1. 









Brightline Reveals First Completed Trainset, Full of Innovations Set to Reinvent Train Travel in US | MiamiCentral


WEST PALM BEACH, FLA. – January 11, 2017 – Brightline, the only privately-funded express passenger rail system in the country, today showcased its first trainset, BrightBlue. Comprised of two locomotives and four coaches, the trainset is housed at its new railroad operations facility, Workshop...




virginmiamicentral.com





A standard coach seat in 3x3 in a 737 width cabin is 17” wide AFAIR


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## PVD

jis said:


> On Brightline Smart seats are 19” wide 2x2 and Select seats are 21” wide 2x1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brightline Reveals First Completed Trainset, Full of Innovations Set to Reinvent Train Travel in US | MiamiCentral
> 
> 
> WEST PALM BEACH, FLA. – January 11, 2017 – Brightline, the only privately-funded express passenger rail system in the country, today showcased its first trainset, BrightBlue. Comprised of two locomotives and four coaches, the trainset is housed at its new railroad operations facility, Workshop...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> virginmiamicentral.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A standard coach seat in 3x3 in a 737 width cabin is 17” wide AFAIR


some airlines have different seats by version or layout, like United which has 17.2 17.3 and 18 depending on version and layout


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## SarahZ

Some airlines also measure the size of the seat cushion instead of the width between the arm rests. Once you figure in the arm rests, that can easily knock off an inch or so.


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## SubwayNut

PVD said:


> 19" width is the number I've seen as well. That is anywhere from 1/2" to 2 inches above typical airline coach. But to be fair, regardless of width, seat design contributes to comfort and there are good and bad seats for lots of reasons.



19 inches seems really good, and sounds comfortable, the moveable armrests are great for accessibility. l do know materials matter for seat comfort but on airplanes at least, 17 inches verses at least 18 or 19 inches wide is the difference between the armrest cutting into my partners hips or her sitting comfortably (we do manage on airplanes with 17 inch wide seats but it's by raising the armrest between us and contorting ourselves). An example in terms of comfort, my partner prefers the bench-like seats on LLC airlines like frontier and spirit, because her backfat gives her lots of padding and since the seats don't recline there isn't the treat of someone reclining into her belly. My boney back on the other hand can't sand the lack of padding on LLC airline seats. Conversely I am also interested in the tray tables. I hope they have a bifold design or some design that moves front to back after they are deployed, because she can't use them on the Amfleet I or Horizon seats (long distance superliners and Amfleet IIs are fine) since the way those tray tables comes down makes the tray table go right into her belly.


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## PVD

It isn't just material, the seat may have a longer or shorter cushion, depending on where the edge falls on your leg, it is a plus or minus, also, thinner seats may allow for a bit more room at a given pitch, but some people find them too firm. It really is a challenge, since we come in so many sizes and shapes, and what may feel great for an hour or two flight may be unpleasant on a much longer one. I like the 2x1 seats in the BC club cars, but despite the bulkhead seats having legroom galore, lack of a tray table can be a PITA for some trips.


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## Mailliw

MikefromCrete said:


> So everybody should be uncomfortable in smaller seats in order for very few people to get down the aisle easier?



Wider aisles make it easier for _everyone _to move up and down them; especially if they have luggage or two people need to pass.


SarahZ said:


> I love that the arm rests can be raised.


I love that there are armrests _between the seats! _


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## Amtrak25

Amfleet-1 once had armrests between the seats. They were about 3" wide but protruded less out than the side ones. Popular demand had them yanked out within a few years. People were also using them as stepstools to get to the luggage racks, which is dangerous.


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## daybeers

Mailliw said:


> Wider aisles make it easier for _everyone _to move up and down them; especially if they have luggage or two people need to pass.


this!!


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## RebelRider

Looks like the Ventures grand debut is planned for February 1, 2022 between Chicago and St. Louis on 303 and 306.


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## jis

RebelRider said:


> Looks like the Ventures grand debut is planned for February 1, 2022 between Chicago and St. Louis on 303 and 306.


So the Cafe car will still be Amfleet on these runs for the time being, right?


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## PVD

I'm pretty sure you are correct


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## Amtrak25

Or Horizon dinette, and tacked on the rear.


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## Cal

For reference, if Google is correct, the current Amtrak seats in coach are 23 inches wide.


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## Amtrak25

If current seat width is 23", future is to be 19", that means aisles will be 16" wider than now ?


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## SarahZ

I think coach is closer to 20”. Business might be 23”.

Source: my hips


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## joelkfla

Question is: What are they actually measuring? SW Airlines measures space between armrests, but since Amtrack doesn't have a center armrest - ???

Some guy on YouTube measured a coach seat on display in NYP back in 2019. Looks like it was one of the seats for the refurbishment. He said the seat cushion was 18.5" wide, and the seat back and headrest a bit wider.


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## rs9

Not to go off topic, but is this an example of a Horizon club dinette?



https://americabyamtrak.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/a4859d44-a153-4dab-8967-62fd6e382eb75.jpg



I dearly hope Lincoln Service business class customers are not subjected to that. I would try to move to coach...


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## PVD

joelkfla said:


> Question is: What are they actually measuring? SW Airlines measures space between armrests, but since Amtrack doesn't have a center armrest - ???
> 
> Some guy on YouTube measured a coach seat on display in NYP back in 2019. Looks like it was one of the seats for the refurbishment. He said the seat cushion was 18.5" wide, and the seat back and headrest a bit wider.


A few years ago so many of the seats were in such bad shape cushion wise that it really didn't matter.. The new covers and cushions make a big difference. I am referring to AM-1, since I have not been in a refreshed AM-2. LD I do sleeper.


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## PVD

rs9 said:


> Not to go off topic, but is this an example of a Horizon club dinette?
> 
> 
> 
> https://americabyamtrak.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/a4859d44-a153-4dab-8967-62fd6e382eb75.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> I dearly hope Lincoln Service business class customers are not subjected to that.


yes, but most people like the split cars.


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## rs9

PVD said:


> yes, but most people like the split cars.



I hate fluorescent lights, so not for me. Though I guess the fact there is business class is a positive enough.


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## PVD

That's the Horizons in general. Harsh lighting. But there are certainly more pleasant fluorescent lights available. Would not be surprised to see all of the tubes changed to LED replacements at some point. pretty good range of choices on color temperature available now.


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## Acela150

RebelRider said:


> Looks like the Ventures grand debut is planned for February 1, 2022 between Chicago and St. Louis on 303 and 306.



Confirmed.


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## ShiningTimeStL

I will try to get out there and see these things in action myself. I work in the city now so if I remember, I can motor on over to downtown and hang out to see what I can see. I may or may not also write an article for NextSTL about it. This could have a seriously huge impact on the future of passenger rail in the region. It will likely attract ridership and draw more attention to rail service--it could very potentially save the Missouri River Runner as we know it, especially if/when new cars go into service on that train's remaining daily frequency. I won't have any PTO from work for a little while so if I ride, it will have to be a short weekend trip, but it's very, very tempting. I wonder what there is to do in Springfield or Bloomington this time of year?


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## Burns651

It's too bad American railroads didn't standardize on one of the broader gauges in use in the 19th century. We could have had both wider aisles and seats!


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## Steve4031

I am planning a round trip on 303-306 in the next couple of weeks.


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## DSS&A

Coach 4001 was parked at the end of track #1 at Chicago Union Station the last week of January apparently for orientation and training.


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## jis

First commercial run of Midwest Siemens Cars









News photo: First revenue run for new Amtrak cars - Trains


JOLIET, Ill. — More than a year after making their first test runs, the Siemens Venture equipment built for state-supported Amtrak service in the Midwest made their first revenue trip Tuesday morning on Lincoln Service train No. 303 from Chicago to St. Louis. The equipment is scheduled to return...




www.trains.com


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## Amtrak25

For some reason, I thought pre-Siemens cars had to be on the rear for the communication systems to work with the engine.


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## jis

Amtrak25 said:


> For some reason, I thought pre-Siemens cars had to be on the rear for the communication systems to work with the engine.


I guess one less thing for railfans to worry about 

Interestingly, according to a Notice of Contract Change dated 3/5/21 the new IDOT cars are being delivered to Beech Grove and not to Chicago. Does this mean acceptance work is being done at Beech Grove or is it just for storage space?


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## ShiningTimeStL

So have the new café and business cars not been delivered yet? In any case, thank goodness this is finally happening. Totally going to go check it out after work. Maybe. Weather could turn at any moment today, supposed to get ice and six inches of snow the next two days. Might not even have to go to work!


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## Ryan

Is the leaded plumbing issue only resident in the cafe car (and hence why that one is still Amfleet)?


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## joelkfla

">February 1, 2022


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## Metra Electric Rider

Yay, it's finally happening! 

(and that Twitter thread joelkfla posted is crazy talking about Amtrak sharing NICTD trackage???)


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## joelkfla

More photos from @HSRail:
">February 1, 2022


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## jis

Ryan said:


> Is the leaded plumbing issue only resident in the cafe car (and hence why that one is still Amfleet)?


I don't believe any cafe car has been delivered yet. But I could be wrong. Still trying to get verification of what has been delivered so far.


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## MisterUptempo

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Yay, it's finally happening!
> 
> (and that Twitter thread joelkfla posted is crazy talking about Amtrak sharing NICTD trackage???)


The Amtrak Connects vision _does _mention NICTD/CSSSB under potential host railroads for the three Michigan Services routes and NICTD for the Chicago-Indy-Cincy/Louisville runs.


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## MisterUptempo

jis said:


> I don't believe any cafe car has been delivered yet. But I could be wrong. Still trying to get verification of what has been delivered so far.


According to the minutes of the Section 305/NGEC Executive Board meeting of January 25th, the following-

_*IDOT Café Car FDRs are in the closure stage and Galley open items are being addressed.*_

They are in final design review, so, likely they haven't even started building the café cars, then?


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## jis

MisterUptempo said:


> According to the minutes of the Section 305/NGEC Executive Board meeting of January 25th, the following-
> 
> _*IDOT Café Car FDRs are in the closure stage and Galley open items are being addressed.*_
> 
> They are in final design review, so, likely they haven't even started building the café cars, then?


Yes, that is what I was looking for. Do you know what exactly has been delivered so far? Are they only the singleton cars or have any of the married pairs been delivered? If so are any of the married pairs in service today? Thanks!


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## daybeers




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## MisterUptempo

jis said:


> Yes, that is what I was looking for. Do you know what exactly has been delivered so far? Are they only the singleton cars or have any of the married pairs been delivered? If so are any of the married pairs in service today? Thanks!


Sorry. I don't have a breakdown, just the minutes from the meeting to go on. Here's the entire passage regarding the Venture car order from Jan 25, 2022-

*On 1-25-22, Kyle Gradinger, Caltrans, provided the following update for inclusion in the meeting minutes:

The Cab Carshell final design has been approved and the cab structures are in production. Remaining Cab Car FDRs are in the final submittal and review stage and the cab car Clearance information has been submitted to Amtrak. IDOT Café Car FDRs are in the closure stage and Galley open items are being addressed. 

The Cab Car Collision and Corner Post Appendix F testing is complete, and the test report is to be submitted in February. The cab car compression test report review is complete, and Siemens is reviewing comments. FAIs will continue for café and cab car subsystems. 

102 cars are in production or have been produced at Siemens Sacramento Facility. IDOT and Caltrans cars are being prepared for Conditional Acceptance and revenue service while open items and relevant FMIs are being addressed. 

4 cars are in test this month in the Midwest and are attached to current consists. Testing includes IT related items and the passenger information system. 

John Oimoen, IDOT, announced that new Venture cars will be put into revenue service for the Lincoln service next week. This is great news!

Here's a link to the minutes.*


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## Exvalley

I am curious as to how comfortable those seats are.


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## ShiningTimeStL

For your pleasure, from your man on the ground! Well, in my car on my way home from work. No idea what's with the P42 tacked on the rear. I took this around an hour and a half before 306's scheduled departure.


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## Mailliw

What is a Galley open item?


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## Metra Electric Rider

Mailliw said:


> What is a Galley open item?


New menu testing? Top secret!


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## MisterUptempo

Mailliw said:


> What is a Galley open item?


Open items, in this case, are likely specific components or designs of the galley that either haven't been addressed at all or have not been completed to IDOT's satisfaction.


----------



## Crowbar_k

MisterUptempo said:


> According to the minutes of the Section 305/NGEC Executive Board meeting of January 25th, the following-
> 
> _*IDOT Café Car FDRs are in the closure stage and Galley open items are being addressed.*_
> 
> They are in final design review, so, likely they haven't even started building the café cars, then?





jis said:


> Yes, that is what I was looking for. Do you know what exactly has been delivered so far? Are they only the singleton cars or have any of the married pairs been delivered? If so are any of the married pairs in service today? Thanks!



In this video, around the 25:25 mark, you can see what appears to be an IDOT car with permanent coupling for a married pair. You can also see a cab car under construction.


----------



## MisterUptempo

A niggling point, but one that has me wondering - Photos of the Venture cars clearly show a wide strip of Velcro across the top of each seat. I would imagine they're there for securing antimacassars, but one thing the seats seem to be sorely lacking is a head/neck cushion.

For those who have extensive international rail experience, are head/neck cushions always permanently secured to the seat or are there some that are Velcro-ed on? Not having them permanently affixed seems like a perfect way to lose them, but I'm naively hoping there's a chance cushions are on the way.


----------



## OBS

MisterUptempo said:


> A niggling point, but one that has me wondering - Photos of the Venture cars clearly show a wide strip of Velcro across the top of each seat. I would imagine they're there for securing antimacassars, but one thing the seats seem to be sorely lacking is a head/neck cushion.
> 
> For those who have extensive international rail experience, are head/neck cushions always permanently secured to the seat or are there some that are Velcro-ed on? Not having them permanently affixed seems like a perfect way to lose them, but I'm naively hoping there's a chance cushions are on the way.


The velcro strip is for holding paper headrests in place...


----------



## Amtrak25

Yet the reupholstery of the existing cars eliminates paper headrests.


----------



## PVD

The refresh of the seats on the existing cars is an Amtrak project, the new cars are not. The states bought what they wanted.


----------



## jis

First look: Siemens Venture coaches debut for Amtrak (updated) - Trains


CHICAGO — “Give yourself a big round of applause,” conductor Erik Newsom enthusiastically announced over the public address system of Amtrak train No. 303 as it left Chicago for St. Louis on Tuesday morning. “You’re the very first to ride Amtrak’s new Midwest cars!” Clapping followed, but that...




www.trains.com


----------



## MARC Rider

Amtrak25 said:


> Yet the reupholstery of the existing cars eliminates paper headrests.


The paper headrests are more properly called "antimacassars." This name comes from the macassar oil (aka "greasy kid stuff") that, 100 years ago, men used to apply to their hair to hold it in place. If seats with headrests didn't have antimacassars, the greasy kid stuff would soak into the seat fabric and make everything dirty and unsanitary. Antimacassars used to be cloth, but by the late 1960s, on the PRR/PC at least, they were being made of paper. The Amfleets had them, and also the Suplerliners, I've seen them into the 21st century with the blue upholstery. I think maybe they stopped doing it in recent years as a cost-cutting measure. The recent refurbishment of cars with the fake leather seats eliminates the need for antimacassars because (1) the seat covering doesn't absorb greasy kid stuff, so the seats and be easily wiped down after use, and (2) nobody wears greasy kid stuff in their hair any more.


----------



## MARC Rider

daybeers said:


> Interesting, thanks for the explanation!
> 
> I'm not sure how many Superliner coaches have been refurbished, but the cloth seats still have the paper antimacassars.


They didn't have any on the Capitol Limited I rode last June:


----------



## rtabern

Question if anyone is in the know here ---- will the new coaches remain on 303 and 306 into next week (week of February 9th).... Was thinking of maybe riding on Wednesday if our schedules permitted.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

One thinks they are trying to hold these new cars to a certain route. The crews need to be trained on them. But pool service is normal for Chicago. Which means no clue.


----------



## John from RI

I've been reading about the seat width and the aisle width. Wheelchair access certainly is important. Amtrak is for all of us; not just for most of us. But mobility impairment does not just mean wheelchairs. It can mean a walker, a rolling walker or a cane. And we all need our space. Cutting one inch off each coach seat would add 4 inches to the aisle. And it would provide 20-inch seats. Even 20 inches can be a little cramped but I can live with it. 19 inches approaches the sardine can conditions on planes. 
For all of that, this seems to be a done deal. Amtrak has taken adequate seating out of its coaches and we will have to live with that.


----------



## Mailliw

On the plus side apparently the new Business Class seating is _26" wide_ in a 2:1 configuration.


----------



## Cal

Mailliw said:


> On the plus side apparently the new Business Class seating is _26" wide_ in a 2:1 configuration.


At least there will be a much better reason to get business now.


----------



## JP1822

Maybe I am not looking at this right, but I was handicapped with a mobility issue for nearly 5 years. Yes, I was lucky to overcome it. From wheelchair to cane to the best that I can do on my two feet now, but still limited. I realize my situation is different from what others may have to endure, and thankfully, my situation has improved enough that the wheelchair is gone. But the cane does come back in the picture from time to time. 

OK, so to my point.....when I did get enough courage to try and travel by train, it took planning on my part. I tried to secure the closest seat to the vestibule at all costs. I did not want end up seated in the middle of the car - longer struggle to get to the vestibules. Wheelchair - it was one end of the car or the other anyway, no problem. But if I was still in a wheelchair, I would not want to be wheeled down the center aisle of the train to get from car to car. I don't really get this. Even with a disability, I'd rather have the wider seat and leg width on the train. For me to do the plane - forget it. I could if I really wanted to struggle, but with the way my legs are, I can't 'maneuver" with the seats on a plane. Long story and you'd have to understand my disability. And to get down the center aisle of a train car - for what? Someone would still be pushing my wheelchair.......If I wanted something from the cafe, I'd try to get a seat in the car next to to the cafe. When I was on a cane, I would ALWAYS reserve the sleeper next to the Diner on the long distance trains so that if I felt I could make it to breakfast or dinner, it wasn't going to be that much of a walk or struggle to get to the Diner. It's not the steps and the cane - but rather the distance. And I certainly have the option to take meals in my room. I'd rather have a comfortable and more room at my seat than wider aisles. There's still room for wheelchairs (should that come back into play in my life again) at either end of the vestibule. The seating on the Venture cars are subpar and belong to the commuter railroads at best, not for Amtrak, regardless if the States ordered them. 

And make this post with a lot of respect for those who are disabled or have mobility issues. This was an absolutely nightmare for me and I know it is for anyone with mobility issues.


----------



## Amtrak25

Regardless of seat width, they could have made the cushions thicker, they could have made the seat backs recline, and they could have put the outlet on the frame in the seat in front, not use valuable hip room between the seat cushions. Even buses do that. They must have gotten people from METRA to design these seats.


----------



## rs9

Amtrak25 said:


> Regardless of seat width, they could have made the cushions thicker, they could have made the seat backs recline, and they could have put the outlet on the frame in the seat in front, not use valuable hip room between the seat cushions. Even buses do that. They must have gotten people from METRA to design these seats.



I've seen reports on another forum that the seats do recline. The button is on the base of the seat somewhere. But, perhaps someone here can confirm.


----------



## Amtrak25

All that does is make the seat cushion slight forward, and not by a whole lot.


----------



## joelkfla

Amtrak25 said:


> Regardless of seat width, they could have made the cushions thicker, they could have made the seat backs recline, and they could have put the outlet on the frame in the seat in front, not use valuable hip room between the seat cushions. Even buses do that. They must have gotten people from METRA to design these seats.


Have there been multiple first-hand reports that the seats are uncomfortable, or that the cushions are inadequate? All I've seen in this thread is somebody saying that they _look _uncomfortable.


----------



## rs9

joelkfla said:


> Have there been multiple first-hand reports that the seats are uncomfortable, or that the cushions are inadequate? All I've seen in this thread is somebody saying that they _look _uncomfortable.



I'm waiting to see that myself. What I find to be interesting is that I can't find complaints about Brightline seats as uncomfortable. Are these seats that different outside of their outward appearance?

Granted, Amtrak Midwest trips may be longer in duration than some Brightline trips, which could impact comfort in the long-term.


----------



## joelkfla

rs9 said:


> I'm waiting to see that myself. What I find to be interesting is that I can't find complaints about Brightline seats as uncomfortable. Are these seats that different outside of their outward appearance?
> 
> Granted, Amtrak Midwest trips may be longer in duration than some Brightline trips, which could impact comfort in the long-term.


There was one post in another thread by somebody saying Brightliine's new seats are uncomfortable. I haven't seen any other complaints.

I've ridden only once on the old seats, and thought they were fine. But of course, it's only a 1-hour ride so far.


----------



## Mailliw

joelkfla said:


> Have there been multiple first-hand reports that the seats are uncomfortable, or that the cushions are inadequate? All I've seen in this thread is somebody saying that they _look _uncomfortable.


I'm finally getting to go on my Chicago trip next month so I'll you know.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Seeing that the new state-owned cars just went into service on Tuesday, there haven't been any reports (that I've seen) on the comfort of the seats. One poster on AU has complained about Brightline seats, but that it.


----------



## Ryan

Around here we don't let facts get in the way of the Internet Outrage Mob.


----------



## jiml

Amtrak25 said:


> All that does is make the seat cushion slight forward, and not by a whole lot.


That's the way the newest Economy airline seats work.


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> That's the way the newest Economy airline seats work.


That is how even the most expensive Sleeper pod seats work too on airliners, as do the Viewliner and Superliner Sleeper seats on Amtrak 

The beef in this case is more about the amount of tilt and thickness of cushion more than how it is done I think. Both are still thicker than Y/Y+ seats on airlines and the seats are wider too by several inches.

The front seat not landing in the laps of the person behind is on the whole a good thing I think.


----------



## GiantsFan

The seat sliding forward is a better method of recline, so you don't get a seat back into your face! .... I think the main thing is the amount of recline, and the seat cushion


----------



## Arctifox

I think so too - if one wants to recline their seat it doesn't affect the one behind them.

Does anyone know if the new coaches have been used on the same trains every day (303 and 306 I think it was) and/or if it is planned to keep them on this round trip?


----------



## rtabern

Does anyone know if the new cars have remained on 303 this past week? We are planning to ride on Wednesday from Chicago to Pontiac on 303 and back on 422. Thanks in advance!


----------



## jpakala

I had no discomfort at all riding Brightline coach seating and the new Amtrak Chicago to St. Louis coach seats look fine to me (although I look forward to the comfort of Business Class when those cars are ready). I agree with JP1822 (someone confined to a wheelchair for a lengthy period) about the wider aisles not being necessary.


----------



## daybeers

I think wider aisles are necessary even if the only reason is allowing more space for those to pass while someone is stowing luggage/getting settled when they're boarding or alighting the train. It's also an awkward dance of trying not to bother the conductor who is checking tickets when traversing the aisle. Having to dip into someone's leg space is far from ideal.


----------



## jpakala

Airplane aisles (narrower yet) are impassable, but then again people are to stay in their one-narrow-size-fits-all seats. As to reclining, if one's seatback doesn't recline it's hard to see how that's much different from a wall-like situation where your back is what suffers as your seat and legs slip forward.


----------



## Crowbar_k

New Trains in the Midwest | High Speed Rail Alliance (hsrail.org)


----------



## Willbridge

I like the windows as compared to the Amfleet but I think that even larger windows were offered at one time. Are there structural trade-offs (other than with SSL or dome windows)?


----------



## daybeers

Crowbar_k said:


> New Trains in the Midwest | High Speed Rail Alliance (hsrail.org)


Thanks for that! Nice pictures in there, though I have to disagree with them saying it's a good paintjob...I think they could've done better. Here's the link without the tracking  New Trains in the Midwest


----------



## Cal

daybeers said:


> Thanks for that! Nice pictures in there, though I have to disagree with them saying it's a good paintjob...I think they could've done better. Here's the link without the tracking  New Trains in the Midwest


I agree, Amtrak could've at least had the paint match up correctly between the locomotive and cars. I also think that Brightline did better with the interior. I'm not quite sure how, but their interior just feels more light and modern.


----------



## Crowbar_k

Willbridge said:


> I like the windows as compared to the Amfleet but I think that even larger windows were offered at one time. Are there structural trade-offs (other than with SSL or dome windows)?
> 
> View attachment 27027



Those seats look really stiff.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Cal said:


> I also think that Brightline did better with the interior. I'm not quite sure how, but their interior just feels more light and modern.



Florida sun and professional photographers?


----------



## neroden

The wider aisles solve a *lot* of problems. While they may not seem to matter on an all-coach train, they make it *possible* for someone in a wheelchair to go to the cafe car. That's a big deal. 

It also makes it more flexible, and perhaps quicker, to board and deboard passengers in wheelchairs at short platforms -- you do not absolutely have to platform every single car where someone in a wheelchair is getting on and off, since it's possible to move between cars.

It also (yep, third benefit!) increases the redundancy of car-mounted wheelchair lifts. If you're depending on car-mounted lifts and one fails, anyone in a wheelchair in that car is screwed -- unless they can roll into the next car.

(Car mounted lifts have become the preferred and default option, over station mounted lifts, due to a combination of more redundancy -- if the only station-mounted lift at a station is broken, nobody can get on or off there -- and requiring fewer lifts to be purchased total. This default is now specified in federal regulation.)


----------



## daybeers

I agree with all your points except


neroden said:


> It also (yep, third benefit!) increases the redundancy of car-mounted wheelchair lifts. If you're depending on car-mounted lifts and one fails, anyone in a wheelchair in that car is screwed -- unless they can roll into the next car.


The ventures only have a wheelchair lift in the cafe cars, which are not constructed yet. If that lift fails, a wheelchair user can't roll into the next car and use that car's lift.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> I agree, Amtrak could've at least had the paint match up correctly between the locomotive and cars. I also think that Brightline did better with the interior. I'm not quite sure how, but their interior just feels more light and modern.


Actually, Amtrak couldn't have, since none of it is owned by Amtrak  If anyone could have it is IDOT who are the designated managers of the acquisition of the Midwest rolling stock from Siemens.


----------



## Trogdor

jis said:


> Actually, Amtrak couldn't have, since none of it is owned by Amtrak  If anyone could have it is IDOT who are the designated managers of the acquisition of the Midwest rolling stock from Siemens.



It has been noted (maybe on here?) that the Siemens Charger paint scheme was designed to match the Nippon Sharyo bilevels that never got built. I’ve seen some mention that the locomotives will be re-striped at some point to match the single-level cars.


----------



## jis

Trogdor said:


> It has been noted (maybe on here?) that the Siemens Charger paint scheme was designed to match the Nippon Sharyo bilevels that never got built. I’ve seen some mention that the locomotives will be re-striped at some point to match the single-level cars.


Yep. The owners can stripe it whichever way they wish.


----------



## Steve4031

My gf and I will ride these in March. I will do a trip report including both our perspectives.


----------



## PVD

I don't think it has sunk in yet for some people that these cars are operated by Amtrak, not spec'd, purchased, or owned by Amtrak. The Midwest Consortium and California, with IDOT in the lead called the shots. Comments have also been made about how people won't like the interior or seats when they go into widespread service for Amtrak, when we don't even know yet what seats they will actually buy.


----------



## Mailliw

Indeed, there's enough lead time for the Amfleet replacements for Amtrak to take advantage of passenger feedback re the CA/IDOT seating arrangements.


----------



## jis

Mailliw said:


> Indeed, there's enough lead time for the Amfleet replacements for Amtrak to take advantage of passenger feedback re the CA/IDOT seating arrangements.


Additionally, they also have time to take feedback from customers on all matters experienced in the Acela 21 sets.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> Actually, Amtrak couldn't have, since none of it is owned by Amtrak  If anyone could have it is IDOT who are the designated managers of the acquisition of the Midwest rolling stock from Siemens.


Okay, yes, you're right. But I still agree with my point, just shifting the blame. 



Trogdor said:


> It has been noted (maybe on here?) that the Siemens Charger paint scheme was designed to match the Nippon Sharyo bilevels that never got built. I’ve seen some mention that the locomotives will be re-striped at some point to match the single-level cars.


I didn't know this, thanks for the information!


----------



## Burns651

PVD said:


> I don't think it has sunk in yet for some people that these cars are operated by Amtrak, not spec'd, purchased, or owned by Amtrak. The Midwest Consortium and California, with IDOT in the lead called the shots. Comments have also been made about how people won't like the interior or seats when they go into widespread service for Amtrak, when we don't even know yet what seats they will actually buy.



For Midwest trains, this thread's focus, we do know what seats they have bought and they are in service. The general public won't realize nor care that Amtrak didn't spec and doesn't own the cars. People buy their tickets from Amtrak and the trains say Amtrak, and that's all people will care about if these seats prove to be uncomfortable.


----------



## PVD

I was referencing people on this and other "rail" forums, they should know the difference. The general public is a different story.


----------



## Trogdor

I took a quick ride over the weekend. Just a one-hour trip.

My impression on the seats: The difference in cushioning vs. the Amfleet I rode on the way back is definitely noticeable. That said, I wouldn’t necessarily call the new seats uncomfortable. After maybe five minutes of sitting down, I seriously didn’t even notice.

Some of the firmness will likely naturally adjust as the seats are worn in a bit (when the new seat cushions on Amfleet/Horizon cars were installed a couple years ago, they were pretty firm as well; that’s just the nature of new seat cushions vs. ones that have been sat in for years). I’d be more concerned about what those seats feel like 2-3 years from now vs. today.

The width, on the other hand, was definitely noticeable. Sitting next to the window, my arm was pushed a bit more into the wall. I had a seat pair to myself so I didn’t quite get the full experience of the narrowness of the seat, and I did fold the center armrest up just to take advantage of the slight extra width that affords.

The forward-sliding recline feature does have limited travel, but that’s always going to be a bit controversial as folks who recline with the traditional seats are really taking more space for themselves at the expense of the person behind them, whereas the slide-forward doesn’t give you any more space, but rather forces one to stay within the “budget” of the space they already had. It would not be sufficient for getting any kind of sleep, but I suppose that’s not what this fleet is really intended for.

I’m sure some will try to vehemently disagree with me, but I think a lot of the complaints about seat hardness are psychological. If you weren’t specifically looking for a reason to complain about the seats, odds are most folks wouldn’t really even care. I recall when the current Amfleet/Horizon seats were retrofitted, and some folks on some of the Facebook groups would complain about how the “new“ seats had so much less legroom and it was clear evidence of Richard Anderson taking his airline mentality to Amtrak by stuffing in more people per car, etc. In reality, everything they were whining about was in their head, they were just trying to convince themselves they didn’t like it to fit their pre-established narrative.

I’ve seen a lot of that with these new seats as well, reading comments in various places (such as the very same Facebook groups). The folks who complained the loudest are those predisposed to seeing fault in everything that happens.


----------



## neroden

daybeers said:


> I agree with all your points except
> The ventures only have a wheelchair lift in the cafe cars, which are not constructed yet. If that lift fails, a wheelchair user can't roll into the next car and use that car's lift.


I've been trying to figure out which cars have wheelchair lifts in the Venture order, and it seems to be different between the Midwest cars, the California cars, and the Pacific Northwest cars. If they really only put one lift into the cafe and nothing else for the Illinois cars, that isn't very bright of Illinois long-term. But it'll probably be different for the other two orders.

Although... with the *current* situation where Amtrak is supposed to have platform-based lifts at all stations, the cafe car lift is basically acting as a backup for the platform-based lifts. So being able to roll into the cafe car *is* the backup. So maybe that's what they were thinking. That does make sense.


----------



## Crowbar_k

Faster Wi-Fi but slimmer seats: Here’s a first look on board Amtrak’s newest trains - The Points Guy


These new trains are a glimpse into the future of Amtrak -- and subsequently, for train travelers across the country.




thepointsguy.com


----------



## rs9

Crowbar_k said:


> Faster Wi-Fi but slimmer seats: Here’s a first look on board Amtrak’s newest trains - The Points Guy
> 
> 
> These new trains are a glimpse into the future of Amtrak -- and subsequently, for train travelers across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thepointsguy.com



From the pictures, the recline does not look very generous or meaningful. So the initial upright comfort would be pretty important.

Does any company currently produce seats similar to the ones found on Amfleet II cars or Amfleet I club cars? Although my knowledge of the industry is zero, I wouldn't be surprised if the current Venture seats are simply what the market offers at this point.

On a trip on Spain's REFNE high speed rail in 2020, the coach seats were fairly comparable in model to the Venture seats. Can't recall the recline abilities.


----------



## Crowbar_k

rs9 said:


> From the pictures, the recline does not look very generous or meaningful. So the initial upright comfort would be pretty important.



In my opinion, the old seats were a little TOO generous with the recliner. The person in front of you could practically go into your lap. To be fair, I dont really care about the recline that much. I usually just keep my seat in the upright position because I'm more comfortable that way.

Now, this is just a hunch, but maybe they are doing this so people are likely to buy business class.


----------



## Exvalley

Crowbar_k said:


> Faster Wi-Fi but slimmer seats: Here’s a first look on board Amtrak’s newest trains - The Points Guy
> 
> 
> These new trains are a glimpse into the future of Amtrak -- and subsequently, for train travelers across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thepointsguy.com


Hmm...

_And while I was fairly comfortable during my one-hour ride between Chicago and Joliet, I could see these seats being a little too stiff for longer journeys, such as the five-hour passage all the way through to St. Louis.

Unfortunately, seat width also decreases from about 21 inches on the Amfleet and Horizon cars to about 19.1 inches. Since I rode the Venture and Amfleet back to back, I could absolutely notice less padding and narrower seats on the newer coaches.

Overall, though, I can’t help but feel slightly underwhelmed by the Venture fleet. It’s modern and functional with usable Wi-Fi, better restrooms and impressive accessibility. But the seats themselves feel like a step backward and feel more airline-like than most people may want. _


----------



## joelkfla

Crowbar_k said:


> In my opinion, the old seats were a little TOO generous with the recliner. The person in front of you could practically go into your lap. To be fair, I dont really care about the recline that much. I usually just keep my seat in the upright position because I'm more comfortable that way.
> 
> Now, this is just a hunch, but maybe they are doing this so people are likely to buy business class.


But as someone pointed out above, we don't know whether the LD trains will have the same seating. Hopefully Amtrak mgt recognizes that more recline is needed for a comfortable night's sleep, and hopefully seats with more recline are available. Until then, if you want to take a nap on a Midwestern train, you'll just have to deal with it.


----------



## Exvalley

joelkfla said:


> we don't know whether the LD trains will have the same seating.


I can't imagine that long distanced trains will have the same seating - at least as far as seat pitch is concerned. Seat width may wind up being the same.


----------



## daybeers

Exvalley said:


> And while I was fairly comfortable during my one-hour ride between Chicago and Joliet, I could see these seats being a little too stiff for longer journeys, such as the five-hour passage all the way through to St. Louis.


I think this is the main issue. They're okay for short trips but for longer ones, they don't seem adequate. Really disappointed in the seat recline being just the bottom cushion moving forward 2.4 inches.

Now if CREATE could move along, maybe it wouldn't be five hours...

I also saw that sadly the business class cars won't be coming until late 2022 and the cafe cars not until 2023!?



> Oddly, these new trains were built with only _one_ set of doors per side, which theoretically would slow the boarding and deboarding process down.


Wait wait, so there's a cutout for a door, but they decided NOT to put one there?!? Who the hell decided that would be a good idea?!?!?


----------



## frequentflyer

Trogdor said:


> I took a quick ride over the weekend. Just a one-hour trip.
> 
> My impression on the seats: The difference in cushioning vs. the Amfleet I rode on the way back is definitely noticeable. That said, I wouldn’t necessarily call the new seats uncomfortable. After maybe five minutes of sitting down, I seriously didn’t even notice.
> 
> Some of the firmness will likely naturally adjust as the seats are worn in a bit (when the new seat cushions on Amfleet/Horizon cars were installed a couple years ago, they were pretty firm as well; that’s just the nature of new seat cushions vs. ones that have been sat in for years). I’d be more concerned about what those seats feel like 2-3 years from now vs. today.
> 
> The width, on the other hand, was definitely noticeable. Sitting next to the window, my arm was pushed a bit more into the wall. I had a seat pair to myself so I didn’t quite get the full experience of the narrowness of the seat, and I did fold the center armrest up just to take advantage of the slight extra width that affords.
> 
> The forward-sliding recline feature does have limited travel, but that’s always going to be a bit controversial as folks who recline with the traditional seats are really taking more space for themselves at the expense of the person behind them, whereas the slide-forward doesn’t give you any more space, but rather forces one to stay within the “budget” of the space they already had. It would not be sufficient for getting any kind of sleep, but I suppose that’s not what this fleet is really intended for.
> 
> I’m sure some will try to vehemently disagree with me, but I think a lot of the complaints about seat hardness are psychological. If you weren’t specifically looking for a reason to complain about the seats, odds are most folks wouldn’t really even care. I recall when the current Amfleet/Horizon seats were retrofitted, and some folks on some of the Facebook groups would complain about how the “new“ seats had so much less legroom and it was clear evidence of Richard Anderson taking his airline mentality to Amtrak by stuffing in more people per car, etc. In reality, everything they were whining about was in their head, they were just trying to convince themselves they didn’t like it to fit their pre-established narrative.
> 
> I’ve seen a lot of that with these new seats as well, reading comments in various places (such as the very same Facebook groups). The folks who complained the loudest are those predisposed to seeing fault in everything that happens.


 So how did the new cars ride? Quieter? Less yawing motion?


----------



## Trogdor

Crowbar_k said:


> Faster Wi-Fi but slimmer seats: Here’s a first look on board Amtrak’s newest trains - The Points Guy
> 
> 
> These new trains are a glimpse into the future of Amtrak -- and subsequently, for train travelers across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thepointsguy.com



That guy was on my train. I saw him at Joliet. How about that!



frequentflyer said:


> So how did the new cars ride? Quieter? Less yawing motion?



Generally quieter. Didn’t notice any yawing motion, but I didn’t really notice all that much in the Amfleet either. Will have to ride it on various routes to see how it handles some of the rougher stretches.

The key will be whether the end doors can properly maintain their seals, as that will be the key to keeping the interior quieter. The doors open and close smoothly, and there was an extra set of doors above the couplers (the inner doors were automatically triggered, the next set appeared to have a push button, but I didn’t see the exact triggering mechanism as I only caught a brief glimpse).


----------



## Cal

I really like that the electronic signs show if the restroom is occupied or not


----------



## jis

If their ride is anything like the Brightline cars they would be very smooth riders on reasonable track


----------



## Crowbar_k

daybeers said:


> Wait wait, so there's a cutout for a door, but they decided NOT to put one there?!? Who the hell decided that would be a good idea?!?!?



I'm pretty sure that's standard practice.


----------



## rs9

Exvalley said:


> I can't imagine that long distanced trains will have the same seating - at least as far as seat pitch is concerned. Seat width may wind up being the same.



Yeah, using a similar model for long distance trains would likely require getting rid of the leg support cushion, among other things. No meaningful recline would be insane.

Of course the realistic part here is that these were purchased by IDOT, not Amtrak. So maybe it's not even worth divining what it means for the long distance fleet.


----------



## daybeers

Crowbar_k said:


> I'm pretty sure that's standard practice.


Where? The amfleet Is have two doors, all commuter cars have two doors, they made a door cutout but didn't put a real door? What's the point in that?


----------



## Crowbar_k

daybeers said:


> Where? The amfleet Is have two doors, all commuter cars have two doors, they made a door cutout but didn't put a real door? What's the point in that?



The amfleet 2's only have one door.

Here is an Acela, ICE, TGV, Via tail lrc, and a Talgo.


----------



## John Bredin

daybeers said:


> all commuter cars have two doors


Metra has only one set of doors on each side of a car, both the electric and diesel-pulled cars.


----------



## jis

daybeers said:


> Where? The amfleet Is have two doors, all commuter cars have two doors, they made a door cutout but didn't put a real door? What's the point in that?


If one looks at the order one finds that there are a few car types that have two doors and other have four doors.



Each standard five car train set will have two married pairs with 6 doors each and a single Coach with 2 doors constituting a standard five car set. A typical set will look something like this:

D-Bus/Coach-D - S - Coach-D - H - D-Cafe/Lounge-D - S - Coach-D - H - Coach-D

where S depicts semi permanent coupler and H depicts AAR tightlock coupler. D depicts door/vestibule. The S coupled cars have the wide seamless gangways.

So on the whole I don't see a reason to get indignant about having only 2 doors in a few cars, from a single car type (apparently) that we have seen so far.


----------



## MisterUptempo

jis said:


> If one looks at the order one finds that there are a few car types that have two doors and other have four doors.
> View attachment 27048
> 
> 
> Each standard five car train set will have two married pairs with 6 doors each and a single Coach with 2 doors constituting a standard five car set. A typical set will look something like this:
> 
> D-Bus/Coach-D - S - Coach-D - H - D-Cafe/Lounge-D - S - Coach-D - H - Coach-D
> 
> where S depicts semi permanent coupler and H depicts AAR tightlock coupler. D depicts door/vestibule. The S coupled cars have the wide seamless gangways.
> 
> So on the whole I don't see a reason to get indignant about having only 2 doors in a few cars, from a single car type (apparently) that we have seen so far.


Another thing to remember regarding the IDOT cars - When asked why the IDOT cars aren't all semi-permanently coupled into a trainset like Caltrans' cars are, it was explained that Amtrak's Chicago shops are not currently configured to handle a set-up like that, but when the shops are equipped to do so, the IDOT trainsets will be converted to all semi-permanently coupled.

That might explain why the IDOT coaches running on 303 and 306 have door cutouts without operating doors. When, and if, the IDOT cars are fully coupled, _then _we can observe whether the other doors get installed.


----------



## jis

MisterUptempo said:


> That might explain why the IDOT coaches running on 303 and 306 have door cutouts without operating doors. When, and if, the IDOT cars are fully coupled, _then _we can observe whether the other doors get installed.


That is a very good point. I had completely forgotten about that future plan. Thanks for reminding.


----------



## Crowbar_k

MisterUptempo said:


> Another thing to remember regarding the IDOT cars - When asked why the IDOT cars aren't all semi-permanently coupled into a trainset like Caltrans' cars are, it was explained that Amtrak's Chicago shops are not currently configured to handle a set-up like that, but when the shops are equipped to do so, the IDOT trainsets will be converted to all semi-permanently coupled.
> 
> That might explain why the IDOT coaches running on 303 and 306 have door cutouts without operating doors. When, and if, the IDOT cars are fully coupled, _then _we can observe whether the other doors get installed.



I didn't know cars could be converted like that.


----------



## jis

Crowbar_k said:


> I didn't know cars could be converted like that.


Just changing out the drawbar/coupler and the gangway. It's not like anything structural is being changed.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> If one looks at the order one finds that there are a few car types that have two doors and other have four doors.
> View attachment 27048
> 
> 
> Each standard five car train set will have two married pairs with 6 doors each and a single Coach with 2 doors constituting a standard five car set. A typical set will look something like this:
> 
> D-Bus/Coach-D - S - Coach-D - H - D-Cafe/Lounge-D - S - Coach-D - H - Coach-D
> 
> where S depicts semi permanent coupler and H depicts AAR tightlock coupler. D depicts door/vestibule. The S coupled cars have the wide seamless gangways.
> 
> So on the whole I don't see a reason to get indignant about having only 2 doors in a few cars, from a single car type (apparently) that we have seen so far.


For CA, the cars with gap fillers or wheelchair lifts have 4 doors. My guess is there will be gap fillers or lifts at one end, and steps at the other end. The steps would be oriented the same as the 2-door cars; so the lifts or gap fillers would be adjacent to the steps in the next car. That way normal doors would be evenly spaced at 1 per car, and use of the gap filler or lift would not interfere with normal entry & exit. The other 4-door car is the lounge; perhaps one set of doors is for servicing the cafe, like the center doors on Viewliner diners.

For IL, the lounge and business cars have 4 doors. Perhaps the business cars will have separate entrances for business & economy class.


----------



## Mailliw

Why does the Caltrans order include lounge cars? I thought they were going with vending machines.


----------



## Crowbar_k

Mailliw said:


> Why does the Caltrans order include lounge cars? I thought they were going with vending machines.


I guess for people to lounge


----------



## PVD

Even if they use machines, people might want to sit down and eat or drink. Of course, with no staff, it will be fun when the machines malfunction and the garbage piles up on the tables.


----------



## Crowbar_k

PVD said:


> Even if they use machines, people might want to sit down and eat or drink. Of course, with no staff, it will be fun when the machines malfunction and the garbage piles up on the tables.


I believe the Piedmont has a lounge cat, despite the fact that they only have vending machines.


----------



## John from RI

Trogdor said:


> I took a quick ride over the weekend. Just a one-hour trip.
> 
> My impression on the seats: The difference in cushioning vs. the Amfleet I rode on the way back is definitely noticeable. That said, I wouldn’t necessarily call the new seats uncomfortable. After maybe five minutes of sitting down, I seriously didn’t even notice.
> 
> Some of the firmness will likely naturally adjust as the seats are worn in a bit (when the new seat cushions on Amfleet/Horizon cars were installed a couple years ago, they were pretty firm as well; that’s just the nature of new seat cushions vs. ones that have been sat in for years). I’d be more concerned about what those seats feel like 2-3 years from now vs. today.
> 
> The width, on the other hand, was definitely noticeable. Sitting next to the window, my arm was pushed a bit more into the wall. I had a seat pair to myself so I didn’t quite get the full experience of the narrowness of the seat, and I did fold the center armrest up just to take advantage of the slight extra width that affords.
> 
> The forward-sliding recline feature does have limited travel, but that’s always going to be a bit controversial as folks who recline with the traditional seats are really taking more space for themselves at the expense of the person behind them, whereas the slide-forward doesn’t give you any more space, but rather forces one to stay within the “budget” of the space they already had. It would not be sufficient for getting any kind of sleep, but I suppose that’s not what this fleet is really intended for.
> 
> I’m sure some will try to vehemently disagree with me, but I think a lot of the complaints about seat hardness are psychological. If you weren’t specifically looking for a reason to complain about the seats, odds are most folks wouldn’t really even care. I recall when the current Amfleet/Horizon seats were retrofitted, and some folks on some of the Facebook groups would complain about how the “new“ seats had so much less legroom and it was clear evidence of Richard Anderson taking his airline mentality to Amtrak by stuffing in more people per car, etc. In reality, everything they were whining about was in their head, they were just trying to convince themselves they didn’t like it to fit their pre-established narrative.
> 
> I’ve seen a lot of that with these new seats as well, reading comments in various places (such as the very same Facebook groups). The folks who complained the loudest are those predisposed to seeing fault in everything that happens.


Thanks for commenting about your actual experience with the new seats.


----------



## MisterUptempo

Mailliw said:


> Why does the Caltrans order include lounge cars? I thought they were going with vending machines.


I started a search through all my files for an image that showed the layout of the Cali café car, which, if I recall, had two or three vending machines on each end of the car, as well as a condiment station. I'm positive I have one somewhere, but no luck so far.

On the subject of café cars, I did locate a rendering from Siemens of the IDOT café car. Granted, it's from 2018, but the other 2018 renderings issued are pretty much dead on, so, perhaps this one is close to accurate. Time will tell-


----------



## Crowbar_k

MisterUptempo said:


> I started a search through all my files for an image that showed the layout of the Cali café car, which, if I recall, had two or three vending machines on each end of the car, as well as a condiment station. I'm positive I have one somewhere, but no luck so far.
> 
> On the subject of café cars, I did locate a rendering from Siemens of the IDOT café car. Granted, it's from 2018, but the other 2018 renderings issued are pretty much dead on, so, perhaps this one is close to accurate. Time will tell-


That looks a lot nicer than the current industrial look of the amfleets and, especially, the horizons.


----------



## joelkfla

Mailliw said:


> Why does the Caltrans order include lounge cars? I thought they were going with vending machines.


You need someplace to put the machines.



PVD said:


> Even if they use machines, people might want to sit down and eat or drink. Of course, with no staff, it will be fun when the machines malfunction and the garbage piles up on the tables.


Don't trains in CA have coach attendants?


----------



## MARC Rider

joelkfla said:


> You need someplace to put the machines.
> 
> 
> Don't trains in CA have coach attendants?


If they're at all like the NEC, the Empire Service, Keystone, the Vermonter, Virginia Northeast Regionals, the Carolinian, etc., they have no coach attendants. The Northeast Regionals sometimes have someone who comes through the train collecting trash and maybe cleaning restrooms, but I'm not sure whether they're assigned to the train for the whole ride or just certain segments where they do their job.


----------



## Bob Dylan

joelkfla said:


> You need someplace to put the machines.
> 
> 
> Don't trains in CA have coach attendants?


The only attendants on CA Trains are the LSA in Business Class. Conductors handle the Trains.


----------



## jrud

The only layout I’ve seen with vending machines is on page 11 of this document. There’s no guarantee it hasn’t changed.



https://sjjpa.com/wp-content/uploads/SJJPA-Board-Meeting-May-31-2019-Presentation-3.pdf


----------



## MisterUptempo

jrud said:


> The only layout I’ve seen with vending machines is on page 11 of this document. There’s no guarantee it hasn’t changed.
> 
> 
> 
> https://sjjpa.com/wp-content/uploads/SJJPA-Board-Meeting-May-31-2019-Presentation-3.pdf


That's the image I was looking for. Guess I remembered it wrong. Machines on both sides, and not on both ends. Thanks for this.


----------



## neroden

rs9 said:


> From the pictures, the recline does not look very generous or meaningful. So the initial upright comfort would be pretty important.


He explains that the seats literally don't recline at all. Sliding the bottom seat cushion around isn't reclining. For short people with tight hamstrings, it's utterly useless. 

(Sliding the bottom end of the seatback forward would be reclining, but the seat doesn't do that. It appears to simply have a bottom cushion which isn't attached properly, and which I will probably have to keep shoving back into place.)

However, I've never minded the lack of reclining on subways or commuter railroads.

I certainly hope Amtrak will go with something more appropriate for the overnight trains, though.


----------



## IndyLions

daybeers said:


> I think this is the main issue. They're okay for short trips but for longer ones, they don't seem adequate. Really disappointed in the seat recline being just the bottom cushion moving forward 2.4 inches.
> 
> Now if CREATE could move along, maybe it wouldn't be five hours...
> 
> I also saw that sadly the business class cars won't be coming until late 2022 and the cafe cars not until 2023!?
> 
> 
> Wait wait, so there's a cutout for a door, but they decided NOT to put one there?!? Who the hell decided that would be a good idea?!?!?


It might have been a style-based decision. Maybe they thought having the appearance of a 2nd door would improve the visual balance of the train. There are lots of decisions that are made based on form - function is not the only consideration.

Just look at all the people who complain that the stripes don’t match up properly!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

MARC Rider said:


> If they're at all like the NEC, the Empire Service, Keystone, the Vermonter, Virginia Northeast Regionals, the Carolinian, etc., they have no coach attendants. The Northeast Regionals sometimes have someone who comes through the train collecting trash and maybe cleaning restrooms, but I'm not sure whether they're assigned to the train for the whole ride or just certain segments where they do their job.


I think the trash collector is the LSA, but, obviously, I could be wrong. And I've heard of them having people ride part way to clean the bathrooms. Maybe between mid-point stations.


----------



## PVD

There is an enroute cleaner position on the NEC but I'm not sure how they are assigned. I have noticed them on NER trains from time to time.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Crowbar_k said:


> I believe the Piedmont has a lounge cat, despite the fact that they only have vending machines.



Yes, the Piedmont trains have a lounge / baggage combine car. The lounge area has several tables and chairs and in the center car they have vending machines as well as free coffee and bottled water. Each time I have been on the train the vending machines were working and well stocked. 



MARC Rider said:


> the Carolinian, etc., they have no coach attendants.



The Carolinian does have a coach attendant as well as a dedicated business class attendant. (Unless things have changed since my last ride).


----------



## daybeers

Everybody worried about the seat width should know that the seats in the Siemens Ventures that Brightline uses are 19 inches wide in "Smart" (coach) and 21 inches wide in "Select" (business).


----------



## MARC Rider

neroden said:


> He explains that the seats literally don't recline at all. Sliding the bottom seat cushion around isn't reclining. For short people with tight hamstrings, it's utterly useless.
> 
> (Sliding the bottom end of the seatback forward would be reclining, but the seat doesn't do that. It appears to simply have a bottom cushion which isn't attached properly, and which I will probably have to keep shoving back into place.)
> 
> However, I've never minded the lack of reclining on subways or commuter railroads.
> 
> I certainly hope Amtrak will go with something more appropriate for the overnight trains, though.


I rode British Rail extensively on a trip I made in 1985. None of the seats in Second Class reclined. They were arranged in sets of seat pairs facing each other with a fairly substantial table in between, I guess sort of like the center seats in the Venture coaches, but throughout the entire car. I thought they were perfectly comfortable, even for our 5 hour ride from Penzance to Paddington, which was the longest single ride we did on the trip. 

With regard to the Amtrak Venture coaches, I do hope that the business class seats recline.


----------



## MARC Rider

Crowbar_k said:


> I believe the Piedmont has a lounge cat, despite the fact that they only have vending machines.


A lounge cat! Cool. Is he friendly? Does he let you pet him?


----------



## Crowbar_k

MARC Rider said:


> A lounge cat! Cool. Is he friendly? Does he let you pet him?


Well, it is also a baggage car, so there might be a cat in that car.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

MARC Rider said:


> I rode British Rail extensively on a trip I made in 1985. None of the seats in Second Class reclined. They were arranged in sets of seat pairs facing each other with a fairly substantial table in between, I guess sort of like the center seats in the Venture coaches, but throughout the entire car. I thought they were perfectly comfortable, even for our 5 hour ride from Penzance to Paddington, which was the longest single ride we did on the trip.
> 
> With regard to the Amtrak Venture coaches, I do hope that the business class seats recline.


My wife and I had a similar experience an even longer trip London to Inverness, about the longest UK train journey you could make at the time (1982). I found the seats perfectly acceptable for a 10 hour trip. We returned on an overnight sleeper though, a 2 berth compartment.


----------



## jis

So the general idea being presented with British Rail experience is that if the new Amtrak Midwest seats are like the seats found in British Rail, which appear to be superficially similar, then they should be just fine for five hour trips.


----------



## PerRock

The look similar to the ones used on most modern British trains these days. I've taken LNER from London to Durham (4hrs) in similar seats & didn't find them uncomfortable. I do think the vast majority of uncomfort is perceived lack of cushion.

peter


----------



## MARC Rider

PerRock said:


> The look similar to the ones used on most modern British trains these days. I've taken LNER from London to Durham (4hrs) in similar seats & didn't find them uncomfortable. I do think the vast majority of uncomfort is perceived lack of cushion.
> 
> peter


The funny thing is that I've had many (not all or most) rides in Amfleets (both Is and IIs) where the cushioning feels inadequate. That is, like I' was sitting on a concrete block. I don't know why it happens sometimes and not others. Generally, it was more prevalent during the 20th century before the capstone refurbishment, but I had one uncomfortable overnight ride in a refurbished Amfleet 2 on the Silver Star.


----------



## Crowbar_k

As far as I know, this is the first video to show the inside of them.


----------



## Amtrak25

His hand gesture toward the end indicates the seat back was fine; the seat cushion not so much.


----------



## mfastx

Stairs not working already, smh.


----------



## neroden

mfastx said:


> Stairs not working already, smh.


I was wondering if Siemens had a sufficient defrosting system for the stairs... or it could just be a mechanical fault.


----------



## jis

Frankly, I would be very surprised if there are no teething troubles. If these failure become persistent that would be another matter. Even then we will need to figure out to what extent the problems are due to the unique maintenance philosophy followed by the Chicago maintenance facility too.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

The big windows are nice but sharing a window and shade with another seat means a potential fight over shade up to see scenery vs. shade down with the person ahead/behind you. I remember that from some of the ex PRR coaches in the pre Amtrak days.


----------



## jis

As I understand it, most fortunately, the shades are not opaque. So all is not completely lost


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Frankly, I would be very surprised if there are no teething troubles. If these failure become persistent that would be another matter. Even then we will need to figure out to what extent the problems are due to the unique maintenance philosophy followed by the Chicago maintenance facility too.


Unique on Amtrak, thankfully, but do-no-work-and-lie-about-it "maintenance" has happened sufficiently often in other places in the past that it has a humorous name: "roll-in roll-out maintenance".


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> Unique on Amtrak, thankfully, but do-no-work-and-lie-about-it "maintenance" has happened sufficiently often in other places in the past that it has a humorous name: "roll-in roll-out maintenance".


Yes. In short the RIRO protocol


----------



## Cal

Simply railway is on the southbound train with the coaches now, he likes them and says they are not uncomfortable


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Yes. In short the RIRO protocol


Also known as the Sunshine/Moonshine Tuneup as Cars sit in the Yard and the staff pencil whips the Repair Orders!( Chicago is Infamous for this!)


----------



## Cal

Simply_Railway's video on them will be released tomorrow


----------



## Crowbar_k

The Goat


----------



## Cal

Are they back in revenue service on any trains yet?


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Cal said:


> Are they back in revenue service on any trains yet?


Does not appear to be so. Could be months for all I know.


----------



## amtrakpass

looks like some of the venture cars are back in revenue service with this current video of train 303 posted today in another group. Looked like 4 venture coaches and 1 amfleet cafe/business









Amtrak Fans | Facebook


This is for EVERYONE who wants to know, ride, rant, make suggestions, critique, praise, or otherwise SAY something about Amtrak. The only thing we DON'T want our outright lies or un-truths, and those...




www.facebook.com


----------



## Shortline

I guess I might get to try them out then, I’m in 303 next week to Chicago to catch the Chief.


----------



## Everydaymatters

I'll be going from BNL to STL this Thursday. Looking forward to trying the new cars.


----------



## Everydaymatters

The new cars are a disgrace to the already disgraced Amtrak. I can't speak for how far back they recline because that feature was not working. The seats are, as stated before, uncomfortable. Round trip from BNL to STL was not one I would want to take again, but I probably will have to at some point. The larger bathroom was the only saving feature. I wonder who in the heck was in charge of the decision to do this to their passengers. And now we're stuck with it for who-knows how many years.


----------



## Burns651

Everydaymatters said:


> And now we're stuck with it for who-knows how many years.



45 years probably. It's pretty sad when Greyhound buses have seats comfier than these. Did the seats get designed by people (Germans) who didn't grasp that these would be running on routes of over 300 miles, over 6 hours and thought a "transit" design would be adequate? And did the states just accept at face value the seat design without considering whether it would be appropriate?


----------



## Mailliw

Fortunately the seats are an easy issue to fix; at least for future orders.


----------



## rs9

Burns651 said:


> 45 years probably. It's pretty sad when Greyhound buses have seats comfier than these. Did the seats get designed by people (Germans) who didn't grasp that these would be running on routes of over 300 miles, over 6 hours and thought a "transit" design would be adequate? And did the states just accept at face value the seat design without considering whether it would be appropriate?



I have not yet ridden in a Venture car so I cannot comment on the seat comfort. But what I can say from the pictures at least is that the seats do not look all that different from train seats used on European railroads. In 2020 I rode on both RENFE (Spain) and TGV (France). Here are a couple pictures that are pretty similar to the seats the trains had.

TVG: https://www.seat61.com/images/lacroix-tgv-2nd-large.jpg
Renfe: https://www.seat61.com/images/Spain-ave-train-103-t2-large.jpg

Both of the trains I was on were high speed "corridor" trains, Barcelona-Paris and Barcelona-southern France, basically a full day trip end to end.

In the end, I don't think the Venture seats are all that radical outside the fact that the U.S. is woefully outside the modern rail age.


----------



## Burns651

rs9 said:


> I have not yet ridden in a Venture car so I cannot comment on the seat comfort. But what I can say from the pictures at least is that the seats do not look all that different from train seats used on European railroads. In 2020 I rode on both RENFE (Spain) and TGV (France). Here are a couple pictures that are pretty similar to the seats the trains had.
> 
> TVG: https://www.seat61.com/images/lacroix-tgv-2nd-large.jpg
> Renfe: https://www.seat61.com/images/Spain-ave-train-103-t2-large.jpg



Those look awful as well.


----------



## rs9

Burns651 said:


> Those look awful as well.



My ride was only 90 minutes, as opposed to a 5 hour CHI-STL journey. But my experience was they weren't really remarkable in a good way or a bad way. They felt fine, they weren't luxurious, and to be honest I never really thought about the seats at all until the Venture debates started up.

A relevant question here is: does any company still produce seats in the old Horizon/Amfleet model?


----------



## PerRock

rs9 said:


> My ride was only 90 minutes, as opposed to a 5 hour CHI-STL journey. But my experience was they weren't really remarkable in a good way or a bad way. They felt fine, they weren't luxurious, and to be honest I never really thought about the seats at all until the Venture debates started up.



I've done 4 hours in similar seats in in England, and found them to be fine. In fact thinking back upon it, I would say they were more comfortable than the ones currently used. The current seats can cause me a bit of pain in the tail-bone area after sitting in them for a few hours, something I did not experience on LNER.

I think the majority of American equate more coushion to being more comfortable, whereas IMHO the design of the seat itself can be just as important to comfort, if not more so.

peter

PS. As I write this, it dawns on me that my very own "gamer" desk chair is very similar in cushion level to the Venture seats; and I sit in that pretty much all day without any issues.


----------



## Steve4031

I can guarantee that the venture seats are better than greyhound. Greyhound has no legroom. And their customer service is abysmal compared even to Amtrak.


----------



## rs9

PerRock said:


> I've done 4 hours in similar seats in in England, and found them to be fine. In fact thinking back upon it, I would say they were more comfortable than the ones currently used. The current seats can cause me a bit of pain in the tail-bone area after sitting in them for a few hours, something I did not experience on LNER.
> 
> I think the majority of American equate more coushion to being more comfortable, whereas IMHO the design of the seat itself can be just as important to comfort, if not more so.
> 
> peter
> 
> PS. As I write this, it dawns on me that my very own "gamer" desk chair is very similar in cushion level to the Venture seats; and I sit in that pretty much all day without any issues.



Your experience with Amfleet/Horizon corridor seats is exactly the same as mine. When I first sit down, it feels super comfortable. After a few hours, the seat does not feel ergonomically right to support my body. Now of course that may just be an individual issue, but I have had trouble being comfortable for the full CHI-STL trip.

For what it's worth, I did STL-CHI once on the Texas Eagle/Superliner and found that to be comfortable all the way, despite my seat mate consuming vast amounts of fried chicken and my worst fears - greasy hands - coming perilously close to me.


----------



## PVD

Everydaymatters said:


> The new cars are a disgrace to the already disgraced Amtrak. I can't speak for how far back they recline because that feature was not working. The seats are, as stated before, uncomfortable. Round trip from BNL to STL was not one I would want to take again, but I probably will have to at some point. The larger bathroom was the only saving feature. I wonder who in the heck was in charge of the decision to do this to their passengers. And now we're stuck with it for who-knows how many years.


Amtrak didn't buy them, nor did they spec the interior. They are the operator and maintainer under contract of these state purchased and owned cars. If they choose the same for the cars they are buying that would be on them. But this is certainly not Amtrak's fault.


----------



## PaTrainFan

rs9 said:


> Your experience with Amfleet/Horizon corridor seats is exactly the same as mine. When I first sit down, it feels super comfortable. After a few hours, the seat does not feel ergonomically right to support my body. Now of course that may just be an individual issue, but I have had trouble being comfortable for the full CHI-STL trip.
> 
> For what it's worth, I did STL-CHI once on the Texas Eagle/Superliner and found that to be comfortable all the way, despite my seat mate consuming vast amounts of fried chicken and my worst fears - greasy hands - coming perilously close to me.



I've never been a fan of Amfleet or Superliner seats. Too hard for my liking.


----------



## Cal

Now on 318?


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Cal said:


> Now on 318?



Yes, thank you, I was gonna post about this. A buddy of mine rode 319 back from Chicago the other day and gave his review of the new cars. Apparently the speaker notification chime got stuck for a while at one point. Teething troubles!


----------



## Cal

So what trains are they operating on?


----------



## west point

Does Siemens have warranty persons on duty in CHI to mitigate any problems. That may be why there is a quick removal of equipment on a train to fix these problems. But who knows?


----------



## CCC1007

Cal said:


> So what trains are they operating on?


350/353 and 318/319, last I got an update. These two round trips require three sets with one overnighting in Kansas City and the other two in Chicago.


----------



## Cal

Business class cars moved to the yard and off the mail platforms


----------



## Fenway

The coach cars look promising


----------



## Cal

Fenway said:


> The coach cars look promising



They are wonderful. I rode the Wolverine this week, and I really liked them. Seats are fine and honestly just as comfortable as the horizon and superliner seats for me (I’m fairly slim and 5’7).


----------



## rickycourtney

There's been a lot of complaints from rail fans about the seats... to which I say... “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time”.


----------



## TransitTyrant

Cal said:


> They are wonderful. I rode the Wolverine this week, and I really liked them. Seats are fine and honestly just as comfortable as the horizon and superliner seats for me (I’m fairly slim and 5’7).


A little concerned some of the panels already appear to be loose. Only place I could see the seats being an issue is the on the new TCMC train set to start in late 2023.


----------



## Cal

TransitTyrant said:


> A little concerned some of the panels already appear to be loose. Only place I could see the seats being an issue is the on the new TCMC train set to start in late 2023.


I didn’t watch the video so I’m unsure of which panels.


----------



## Mailliw

Cool video. If you read the comments apparently one reason for the seats not rotating are the outlets between them; it cause strain on the wiring. Haven't heard that theory before.


----------



## Cal

Mailliw said:


> Cool video. If you read the comments apparently one reason for the seats not rotating are the outlets between them; it cause strain on the wiring. Haven't heard that theory before.


I wouldn’t think it’s a theory, seems like common sense. If those outlets mean we sacrifice turning seats im fine with it


----------



## Fenway

Another fan video


----------



## joelkfla

Another review, with very detailed seat tour:


----------



## jpakala

I couldn't discern what the complaint was (near the end) when you said if you had one it would be "that"; you were off the train at Kalamazoo and the train was behind you. You added that maybe someday it would be fixed.


----------



## TRA_Thom

jpakala said:


> I couldn't discern what the complaint was (near the end) when you said if you had one it would be "that"; you were off the train at Kalamazoo and the train was behind you. You added that maybe someday it would be fixed.


Creator of the video here. By “that” I meant that the stripes on the locomotive do not line up with the livery of the cars. A commenter noted that it was because the locomotives were originally meant to match the bilevel Nippon Sharyo cars that never ended up being built. So perhaps one day they’ll adjust the paint job on the Chargers.
Other than that, I loved the cars. I found them to be modern, spacious, light, and comfortable. Although I wish the passenger information screens worked. And the toilet door did not shut all the way.


----------



## joelkfla

TRA_Thom said:


> Creator of the video here. By “that” I meant that the stripes on the locomotive do not line up with the livery of the cars. A commenter noted that it was because the locomotives were originally meant to match the bilevel Nippon Sharyo cars that never ended up being built. So perhaps one day they’ll adjust the paint job on the Chargers.
> Other than that, I loved the cars. I found them to be modern, spacious, light, and comfortable. Although I wish the passenger information screens worked. And the toilet door did not shut all the way.


Welcome to Amtrak Unlimited!


----------



## PerRock

TRA_Thom said:


> Creator of the video here. By “that” I meant that the stripes on the locomotive do not line up with the livery of the cars. A commenter noted that it was because the locomotives were originally meant to match the bilevel Nippon Sharyo cars that never ended up being built. So perhaps one day they’ll adjust the paint job on the Chargers.
> Other than that, I loved the cars. I found them to be modern, spacious, light, and comfortable. Although I wish the passenger information screens worked. And the toilet door did not shut all the way.



The few state DOT officials I've talked to have mentioned the plan to correct the stripes on the locomotives.

The screens not working is one of my biggest "fears" of the new cars. Some of the Amfleets had digital screens to show similar information, which very quickly stopped being used & now just say which side the restroom is.

peter


----------



## TransitTyrant

PerRock said:


> The few state DOT officials I've talked to have mentioned the plan to correct the stripes on the locomotives.
> 
> The screens not working is one of my biggest "fears" of the new cars. Some of the Amfleets had digital screens to show similar information, which very quickly stopped being used & now just say which side the restroom is.
> 
> peter


I believe the crews haven’t been trained yet how to properly use the screens and troubleshoot potential problems. With Amtrak’s employee shortage that’s understandable.

The IDOT owned SC44s are expected to receive a quarter life overhaul starting in 2023 so perhaps that’s when they’ll be repainted.


----------



## MikefromCrete

With everything going on in the world of passenger railroading, we're worried about matching stripes!


----------



## joelkfla

TransitTyrant said:


> I believe the crews haven’t been trained yet how to properly use the screens and troubleshoot potential problems. With Amtrak’s employee shortage that’s understandable.
> 
> The IDOT owned SC44s are expected to receive a quarter life overhaul starting in 2023 so perhaps that’s when they’ll be repainted.


I can't see that there would be more than 5 minutes training required. Turn on the system, select the route, and if it isn't activated by GPS or some sort of trackside infrastructure, push a button when approaching a station. Maybe a FF or REW in case a station is missed or triggered by accident. If it's not working right, turn it off and leave it for maintenance to fix. If there's more interaction than that required, it's a poorly designed system.

But somebody (not the train or OBS crew) would need to program in the routes. Maybe they haven't gotten around to that yet.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

joelkfla said:


> I can't see that there would be more than 5 minutes training required. Turn on the system, select the route, and if it isn't activated by GPS or some sort of trackside infrastructure, push a button when approaching a station. Maybe a FF or REW in case a station is missed or triggered by accident. If it's not working right, turn it off and leave it for maintenance to fix. If there's more interaction than that required, it's a poorly designed system.
> 
> But somebody (not the train or OBS crew) would need to program in the routes. Maybe they haven't gotten around to that yet.


I've dealt indirectly with various menu screens and "digital" canvasses in retail situations from the design perspective - clients have had a lot of trouble with them in some situations and they aren't actually, for some reason or other, user friendly.


----------



## mfastx

MikefromCrete said:


> With everything going on in the world of passenger railroading, we're worried about matching stripes!



I think it reflects the dysfunction surrounding passenger rail in this country that the powers that be can't get something so simple right.

I'm still beside myself at the new viewliner scheme being different from the existing rolling stock lol.


----------



## Cal

TransitTyrant said:


> .
> 
> The IDOT owned SC44s are expected to receive a quarter life overhaul starting in 2023 so perhaps that’s when they’ll be repainted.


what? They entered service in 2017 so it will have been 6 years. Are they going to be retired after 24 years?


----------



## TRA_Thom

MikefromCrete said:


> With everything going on in the world of passenger railroading, we're worried about matching stripes!


That's not really a fair summary of this conversation. Nobody here is up all night worrying about it.
The issue is that both the locomotives and the cars carry a livery that's different from the regular Amtrak fleet, to distinguish it as the Amtrak Midwest product. So when they are just off by placement and color, that looks strange and unprofessional. Especially when both are built by the same manufacturer.
In other countries around the world, or in the airline industry, a livery represents the company or the region's brand, and a lot more attention is given to it.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> what? They entered service in 2017 so it will have been 6 years. Are they going to be retired after 24 years?


A life can have many quarters I suppose 

I remember the endless number of "quarter life" overhauls that the Amfleet Is have gone through


----------



## TransitTyrant

Cal said:


> what? They entered service in 2017 so it will have been 6 years. Are they going to be retired after 24 years?


The overhauls will begin specifically once the units hit 7-8 years old. That would mean they expect the locomotives to last ~30 years. 



https://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/Annual%20Meetings/2022/9.a.%20IDOT%202022%20Equipment%20Update.pptx


----------



## Amtrak25

Unlike Amfleet, these things seem to be shop queens, so they could well last 30 years since they do not seem to run very much. Someone said a few days ago on Trainorders that about 16 of them are out of service every day.


----------



## jis

Amtrak25 said:


> Unlike Amfleet, these things seem to be shop queens, so they could well last 30 years since they do not seem to run very much. Someone said a few days ago on Trainorders that about 16 of them are out of service every day.


Would expect nothing less from the excellent Chicago shops. LOL. Actually, as per the claims made in the TO post, managing to keep half the fleet running is pretty commendable with a new technology I'd say! Normally one expects 80% to be on the road. Besides, posts in TO are hardly the last word of reliable information 

Brightline seems to have no problem running theirs, but of course they are maintained by Siemens under contract. WSDOT appears to have relatively little problem keeping theirs running either.


----------



## Mailliw

Did WSDOT opt for a maintenance contract with Siemens too?


----------



## TransitTyrant

Amtrak25 said:


> Unlike Amfleet, these things seem to be shop queens, so they could well last 30 years since they do not seem to run very much. Someone said a few days ago on Trainorders that about 16 of them are out of service every day.


That person; I know who you’re talking about, has a very unhealthy obsession with trying to prove the Chargers are just dogs and useless. There are days when several are being shopped but for the most part the majority are pulling trains.


----------



## Cal

When i passed the Chicago yards it felt like there were a lot in the shops, but I don’t think I ever saw a Midwest train being pulled by anything other than a charger so…


----------



## rickycourtney

The California units also seem to have no more issues than any other locomotive. Admittedly, that's anecdotal data. But, I would also point out that Los Angeles and Oakland are also Amtrak-run shops.

I think the perception of the Chargers being "shop queens" is at least partly the fault of Amtrak's poor oversight of the Chicago shops.


----------



## Cal

rickycourtney said:


> The California units also seem to have no more issues than any other locomotive. Admittedly, that's anecdotal data. But, I would also point out that Los Angeles and Oakland are also Amtrak-run shops.
> 
> I think the perception of the Chargers being "shop queens" is at least partly the fault of Amtrak's poor oversight of the Chicago shops.


Surfliner's have been doing good, in fact I don't think a P42 has had to substitute in a very long time.


----------



## Cal

Amtrak('s social media team) can't seem to even be able to tell apart their own locomotives.


----------



## Mark P

Looking to take the MO River Runner next May and excited to try out the new Venture coaches. Any idea as to the schedule of the new business class cars? Will they be operating on that route by then? The old split cafe/business cars do not look too exciting.


----------



## Amtrak25

Be careful what you wish for, or be on a diet of solids only prior to going. According to a poster on Trainorders, cancellations for Lincoln trains due to too much non functioning equipment :

_Train 305 from August 12-17 cancelled.
Train 300 from August 13-18 cancelled.

These trains have been operating with only one working restroom on the entire train for almost a week now. *These trains are running with all Ventra cars and they can't keep the toilets working. *The Amfleet I cafe car is usually the only working restroom on the whole train._


----------



## rs9

Amtrak25 said:


> Be careful what you wish for, or be on a diet of solids only prior to going. According to a poster on Trainorders, cancellations for Lincoln trains due to too much non functioning equipment :
> 
> _Train 305 from August 12-17 cancelled.
> Train 300 from August 13-18 cancelled.
> 
> These trains have been operating with only one working restroom on the entire train for almost a week now. *These trains are running with all Ventra cars and they can't keep the toilets working. *The Amfleet I cafe car is usually the only working restroom on the whole train._



There is verification of the cancellations, but the only source of the bathroom problems that I can find is the TrainOrders post, which doesn't cite any source of its own.


----------



## TransitTyrant

rs9 said:


> There is verification of the cancellations, but the only source of the bathroom problems that I can find is the TrainOrders post, which doesn't cite any source of its own.


Well before the stairs issue two Wolverine runs were using Ventures but for the past week all Wolverines were using Amfleets/Horizons. Something is up.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Amtrak25 said:


> _These trains have been operating with only one working restroom on the entire train for almost a week now. *These trains are running with all Ventra cars and they can't keep the toilets working. *The Amfleet I cafe car is usually the only working restroom on the whole train._


I can't help but chuckle at your typo since Ventra is the payment system Metra and the CTA use....


----------



## Amtrak25

Metra Electric Rider said:


> I can't help but chuckle at your typo since Ventra is the payment system Metra and the CTA use....


That typo was not created by me.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Amtrak25 said:


> That typo was not created by me.


True, but still funny!


----------



## MIrailfan

I wish the Vanture cars were like the Surfliner cars.


----------



## TransitTyrant

Venture cars are still in service on 301.


----------



## Cal

MIrailfan said:


> I wish the Vanture cars were like the Surfliner cars.


What do you mean by this


----------



## rookzie

MIrailfan said:


> I wish the Vanture cars were like the Surfliner cars.





Cal said:


> What do you mean by this



I think Mirailfan was just being facetious. He intended to mean the "Ventura" cars delivered by Seamans


----------



## amtkstn

Missouri River runner westbound is using a all Amfleet conit this morning.


----------



## MikefromCrete

rookzie said:


> I think Mirailfan was just being facetious. He intended to mean the "Ventura" cars delivered by Seamans



The original plans for the Midwest/California cars were supposed to be similar to the California/Surfliner cars used on the West Coast. Nippon/Shayron which was supposed to build these cars, but could not produce a car that would meet stress tests. So, the contract went to Siemans for single level cars. So far, there have been a number of problems with these cars, which are similar to the cars used by Brighline. The Brightline cars seem to be free of the Venture car problems.


----------



## Brian_tampa

MikefromCrete said:


> The original plans for the Midwest/California cars were supposed to be similar to the California/Surfliner cars used on the West Coast. Nippon/Shayron which was supposed to build these cars, but could not produce a car that would meet stress tests. So, the contract went to Siemans for single level cars. So far, there have been a number of problems with these cars, which are similar to the cars used by Brighline. The Brightline cars seem to be free of the Venture car problems.


Brightline actually worked with Siemens to come up with a design for their Venture cars over a period of several years. I have been told that prior to the initial delivery of the first several trainsets, Brightline actually went through a QA/QC process with Siemens. This was instrumental in catching any production related issues before they were released from the factory. I have also heard that IDOT and CalTrans did not go through this process, perhaps due to lack of personnel or budget? 

Case in point is the issue of lead in the potable water on the Venture trains for the Midwest and California. I was told that this involved the substitution of brass fittings for the stainless steel fittings that Brightline specified. This was done at the behest of Amtrak engineering in order to standardize the new equipment with their existing fleet. Most likely the other issues can be traced back to deviations from the Brightline design specifications as well to meet Amtrak standards. 

I also suspect that VIA Rail has also been more proactive as well following Brightline's lead. There have been very few if any reports of issues with their first trainsets so far during testing over the past 9 months. 

So in other words, although the Brightline and Amtrak Venture cars may share the same name and overall look, they are not at all similar when it comes to their detailed design spec's.


----------



## rookzie

MikefromCrete said:


> The original plans for the Midwest/California cars were supposed to be similar to the California/Surfliner cars used on the West Coast. Nippon/Shayron which was supposed to build these cars, but could not produce a car that would meet stress tests. So, the contract went to Siemans for single level cars. So far, there have been a number of problems with these cars, which are similar to the cars used by Brighline. The Brightline cars seem to be free of the Venture car problems.


Yes, I was aware of the Nippon Sharyo stress-test results, and that likely was the pivotal set of events that ultimately led to sniffing out Siemens as vendor. And I was just being facetious with the intentional mispellings "Ventura" as in the one near Oxnard; and "Seamans"

After the successful bid by Nippon Sharyo to produce both single-level EMUs and trailers and Highliner II EMUs for NICTD and Highliner IIs for METRA, I was hoping to see a mix of new intercity equipment contracted separately by both Nippon Sharyo and by Siemens, since Siemens already had an domestic established service record on-hand with Brightline. It is true however, that consistency in vendor design and engineering, along with large car orders, theoretically can be a more cost-effective best practice in procurement, although that's not necessarily the desired result, when major punch-list issues surface and require sometimes extended periods of being removed from service. Smaller orders from two or more vendors often minimizes the chances of new equipment's removal from service for the same defects.

Bidding and contract awarding also can be quite constraining, when the client is a government agency, or an agency utilizing government-provided funding for the purpose of procurement. That often results in one but not both (or more), competitive bidders being awarded as the lowest, "responsive", and "responsible bidder" for a given RFP target. But I still would have liked to see some Nippon Sharyo single-level or bi-level intercities.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Brian_tampa said:


> Brightline actually worked with Siemens to come up with a design for their Venture cars over a period of several years. I have been told that prior to the initial delivery of the first several trainsets, Brightline actually went through a QA/QC process with Siemens. This was instrumental in catching any production related issues before they were released from the factory. I have also heard that IDOT and CalTrans did not go through this process, perhaps due to lack of personnel or budget?
> 
> Case in point is the issue of lead in the potable water on the Venture trains for the Midwest and California. I was told that this involved the substitution of brass fittings for the stainless steel fittings that Brightline specified. This was done at the behest of Amtrak engineering in order to standardize the new equipment with their existing fleet. Most likely the other issues can be traced back to deviations from the Brightline design specifications as well to meet Amtrak standards.
> 
> I also suspect that VIA Rail has also been more proactive as well following Brightline's lead. There have been very few if any reports of issues with their first trainsets so far during testing over the past 9 months.
> 
> So in other words, although the Brightline and Amtrak Venture cars may share the same name and overall look, they are not at all similar when it comes to their detailed design spec's.


We can only hope that the lessons learned from the Midwest experience will grease the skids for Amtrak's future orders. Of course, we all had higher expectations for Midwest given the experience with Brightline.


----------



## Amtrak25

Brian_tampa said:


> Brightline actually worked with Siemens to come up with a design for their Venture cars over a period of several years. I have been told that prior to the initial delivery of the first several trainsets, Brightline actually went through a QA/QC process with Siemens. This was instrumental in catching any production related issues before they were released from the factory. I have also heard that IDOT and CalTrans did not go through this process, perhaps due to lack of personnel or budget?
> 
> Case in point is the issue of lead in the potable water on the Venture trains for the Midwest and California. I was told that this involved the substitution of brass fittings for the stainless steel fittings that Brightline specified. This was done at the behest of Amtrak engineering in order to standardize the new equipment with their existing fleet. Most likely the other issues can be traced back to deviations from the Brightline design specifications as well to meet Amtrak standards.
> 
> I also suspect that VIA Rail has also been more proactive as well following Brightline's lead. There have been very few if any reports of issues with their first trainsets so far during testing over the past 9 months.
> 
> So in other words, although the Brightline and Amtrak Venture cars may share the same name and overall look, they are not at all similar when it comes to their detailed design spec's.


Sounds like Amtrak no longer has the competency to spec out equipment orders. 

We also have Acela Avelia pushed out at least another year for whatever reasons.


----------



## Brian_tampa

PaTrainFan said:


> We can only hope that the lessons learned from the Midwest experience will grease the skids for Amtrak's future orders. Of course, we all had higher expectations for Midwest given the experience with Brightline.


I think the Brightline experience is due a lot to their company culture and what they want to be. They don't look at themselves as just an operator of trains from Miami to WPB. It is the presentation and how their customers experience their product that matters.

Many of their upper management over the years have come from the hospitality field instead of transportation industries. They also hired some pretty darn good key people with railroad experience in mechanical and operations as well. Plus they had the good sense to have the manufacturer maintain the trainsets. This allows them to predict with certainty how much maintenance will cost each year and sets performance standards. As it is a fixed contract over 30 years (with inflation indexed in to the annual price) there is no pressure to cut back on it. The agreement details were described in a PAB (bond) offering memorandum a few years back.

As far as Amtrak and their engineering decisions, they probably went with what they know and designed it to fit with the rest of their fleet they have to maintain. I can understand why Amtrak didn't want to just copy everything Brightline used. The lack of a similar maintenance agreement is probably the biggest mistake the states made.

Does anyone know what VIA Rail has as far as a maintenance and support agreement with Siemens?


----------



## thully

350 is running with Horizon cars this morning, so I guess they aren’t running the Ventures on 350/355 anymore. Not sure if they’re on another train set or withdrawn entirely - saw 351 pass us, but it was too fast to tell for certain what it was using (though I believe it was Horizon).

Had figured they were withdrawn entirely as they were unable to board through those cars due to defects (they were putting older cars on both consist and having people board at one of those and walk through the train, which hardly seems ideal with busy trains). However, comments on Twitter suggests that problem has been resolved, and they‘ve been boarding through Venture cars on other Midwest services.


----------



## thully

An update on the Wolverine Venture cars:



Though that doesn’t exactly make sense - 352 and 353 wouldn’t share a consist…


----------



## thully

I think they’re probably on 351 and 352 - saw this:

Unconfirmed, of course, but subject to change.


----------



## DSS&A

Amtrak had to reduce the number of trains on the Chicago to St. Loius route today due to equipment problems....


----------



## TransitTyrant

DSS&A said:


> Amtrak had to reduce the number of trains on the Chicago to St. Loius route today due to equipment problems....


Ventures are still in Service on several of the trains.


----------



## Bob Dylan

TransitTyrant said:


> Ventures are still in Service on several of the trains.


They've been using Horizons on lots of the Midwest Trains both as boarding Cars and Full consists.

Could be more Engine problems too!???


----------



## TransitTyrant

Bob Dylan said:


> They've been using Horizons on lots of the Midwest Trains both as boarding Cars and Full consists.
> 
> Could be more Engine problems too!???


Not anymore they aren’t. Rode on them over the weekend, stairs and doors worked fine. 

Engine problems unlikely, Amtrak has never really been short of locomotives.


----------



## Scuba_Steve

Anyone have an update on the Venture cars in California? The first set was delivered over 2 years ago and to my knowledge they still haven't been put in service. Also, it seems like the news cars will be staying in Northern California and the old California cars will by coming south to the Surfline (or so I've heard). Any talk on refurbishing those? It's unfortunate the busiest Amtrak route, outside of the NE corridor, will be getting old recycled cars, instead of the brand new ones they were supposed to get. Thanks a lot Nippon Sharyo.


----------



## Silversir

Exvalley said:


> I am curious as to how comfortable those seats are.


Good for an hour or so on Brightline. Can't imagine sitting for a few hours in them on longer distance routes.


----------



## TransitTyrant

Scuba_Steve said:


> Anyone have an update on the Venture cars in California? The first set was delivered over 2 years ago and to my knowledge they still haven't been put in service. Also, it seems like the news cars will be staying in Northern California and the old California cars will by coming south to the Surfline (or so I've heard). Any talk on refurbishing those? It sucks the busiest Amtrak route, outside of the NE corridor, will be getting old recycled cars, instead of the brand new ones they were supposed to get. Thanks a lot Nippon Sharyo.


Why would the Surfline be getting used equipment? Are they short of trainsets? As far as I know the Venture cars for the San Joaquin aren’t displacing any equipment, just supplementing.


----------



## Trogdor

TransitTyrant said:


> Why would the Surfline be getting used equipment? Are they short of trainsets? As far as I know the Venture cars for the San Joaquin aren’t displacing any equipment, just supplementing.



The Surfliner needs extra capacity, and there’s no other way to grow the fleet in the short term (new bilevels aren’t on order).


----------



## NES28

The Venture cars will replace a chunk of the bi-level equipment on the San Joaquins.


----------



## daybeers

Silversir said:


> Good for an hour or so on Brightline. Can't imagine sitting for a few hours in them on longer distance routes.


Did you ride Brightline before or after they refurbished the seats while they were out of service for COVID and PTC work?


----------



## Cal

Scuba_Steve said:


> Anyone have an update on the Venture cars in California? The first set was delivered over 2 years ago and to my knowledge they still haven't been put in service. Also, it seems like the news cars will be staying in Northern California and the old California cars will by coming south to the Surfline (or so I've heard). Any talk on refurbishing those? It's unfortunate the busiest Amtrak route, outside of the NE corridor, will be getting old recycled cars, instead of the brand new ones they were supposed to get. Thanks a lot Nippon Sharyo.


I thought they were gonna go to the Capitol Corridor. Hhmmm, I mean the Surfline could probably use them.


----------



## Fenu S

Amtrak 381 came into Galesburg this morning with two venture cars. Looks like they only used the horizon cafe car to board/deboard.


----------



## TransitTyrant

Fenu S said:


> Amtrak 381 came into Galesburg this morning with two venture cars. Looks like they only used the horizon cafe car to board/deboard.
> 
> View attachment 29618


Amtrak/Siemens identified the issue with the steps and handrails but perhaps not all cars have been fixed yet.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

untill all in service are fixed the restriction on using those steps will stay .


----------



## Fenu S

Interestingly, they used the doors on the first venture car to board in Quincy. The mysteries of Amtrak!


----------



## TransitTyrant

Dutchrailnut said:


> untill all in service are fixed the restriction on using those steps will stay .


Rode on them a weeks ago, the steps were being used then.


----------



## Steve4031

The crew is simply boarding passengers in certain coaches based on the destination as they always have done. Perhaps there were business class passengers boarding in Galesburg.


----------



## rs9

Steve4031 said:


> The crew is simply boarding passengers in certain coaches based on the destination as they always have done. Perhaps there were business class passengers boarding in Galesburg.


This would seem to be correct - the business and cafe Venture cars aren't in service yet.


----------



## Amtrak25

Did they do something to fix the step mechanisms ?


----------



## jis

Amtrak25 said:


> Did they do something to fix the step mechanisms ?


Whatever was the problem apparently does not exist any more, or is no longer considered a problem. As to whether some major mechanical fix was involved or a minor tweak, or merely changing documentation or doing nothing, is not clear. But the doors are all being used again.


----------



## TRA_Thom

The Ventures are running on the Pere Marquette now! Started yesterday. Right now it’s an Amfleet Business/Cafe and two Ventures. Steps work just fine.


----------



## GDRRiley

Brian_tampa said:


> Brightline actually worked with Siemens to come up with a design for their Venture cars over a period of several years. I have been told that prior to the initial delivery of the first several trainsets, Brightline actually went through a QA/QC process with Siemens. This was instrumental in catching any production related issues before they were released from the factory. I have also heard that IDOT and CalTrans did not go through this process, perhaps due to lack of personnel or budget?


It isn't a new design, they modified a Euro design the Viaggio Comfort. The euro cars can and do hit 145mph in service with a 155mph option. while these are limited to 125 maybe 135mph.


Brian_tampa said:


> Case in point is the issue of lead in the potable water on the Venture trains for the Midwest and California. I was told that this involved the substitution of brass fittings for the stainless steel fittings that Brightline specified. This was done at the behest of Amtrak engineering in order to standardize the new equipment with their existing fleet. Most likely the other issues can be traced back to deviations from the Brightline design specifications as well to meet Amtrak standards.


it was also a different subcontractor who made the system.


Brian_tampa said:


> I also suspect that VIA Rail has also been more proactive as well following Brightline's lead. There have been very few if any reports of issues with their first trainsets so far during testing over the past 9 months.


I think thats more got to do with how tight VIA like many Candida operators is. We know HFR is something, it could be 220mph HSR or 90MPH service with a few more trains a day



Cal said:


> I thought they were gonna go to the Capitol Corridor. Hhmmm, I mean the Surfline could probably use them.


Nope all to the San Joaquin, there is talk of ordering 4 more so they can be all Venture car
Surfliner has said they want a bi level car for the extra capacity.


----------



## Fenu S

Looks like they took the consist from 381 then. They came in this morning with their normal Amfleet/Horizon cars consist. Though 383 came in with two Superliners.


----------



## jis

GDRRiley said:


> It isn't a new design, they modified a Euro design the Viaggio Comfort. The euro cars can and do hit 145mph in service with a 155mph option. while these are limited to 125 maybe 135mph.


It is Viaggio but there are a few significant changes, specially in the interior. The interior is basically specified by Brightline for the Brightline trains.

The car structure was modified slightly to make them FRA Tier III compliant shells, so that in the future they can easily be certified for speeds higher than 125mph in the US as needed.

And of course the brakes, HEP and exterior fittings are also US standard, slightly different from Europe.


----------



## GDRRiley

jis said:


> It is Viaggio but there are a few significant changes, specially in the interior. The interior is basically specified by Brightline for the Brightline trains.
> 
> The car structure was modified slightly to make them FRA Tier III compliant shells, so that in the future they can easily be certified for speeds higher than 125mph in the US as needed.


the interior though has always been quite flexible, as I understand it they use the same shell for coaches and sleeping cars but change everything inside.

Nice to know that was though of, I wonder how fast they can be rated to.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

GDRRiley said:


> the interior though has always been quite flexible, as I understand it they use the same shell for coaches and sleeping cars but change everything inside.
> 
> Nice to know that was though of, I wonder how fast they can be rated to.


Isn’t the Venture car almost a foot wider than the Viaggio?


----------



## GDRRiley

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Isn’t the Venture car almost a foot wider than the Viaggio?


They are, I'm saying the interior has always been a flexible thing. US built cars conform to different requirements but the same idea of keep the shell the same change the inside applies.


----------



## thully

Any idea if these are still on the Wolverines? They were originally on 350/355, but were off those by the time I rode 350 in August. Pretty sure they had shifted to 351/352 then based on social media, but I heard today that they’re not on 351 anymore. That means they’re either on 353/354, or they’re no longer on the Wolverines. Heard they’re on the Pere Marquette now, so wondering if the Wolverine Ventures got shifted there after 350/355 were suspended…


----------



## Dutchrailnut

Siemens Viaggio ComfortCar length25.98 m (85 ft 3 in)Width2.825 m (9 ft 3.2 in)Height4.05 m (13 ft 3 in)Maximum speed230 km/h (143 mph) Service 249 km/h (155 mph) Design



Siemens VentureCar length85 ft (25,908 mm)Width10 ft 6 in (3,200 mm)Height14 ft (4,267 mm)Platform heightLevel boarding: 48 in (1,219 mm) Step boarding: 8 in (203 mm)


----------



## daybeers

Can we have a recap of which trains are running with the Ventures?


----------



## thully

daybeers said:


> Can we have a recap of which trains are running with the Ventures?


Yeah - this is very hard to find. I even did a one-month Railstream subscription in hopes of finding out what Wolverines have them (and checking out the SWC consist mentioned on another thread), and I'm not seeing any cameras on the line the Wolverines run on.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

Is the venture car order still a work in progress for the midwest or have all the deliveries occurred and still using older cars because of the water pipe lead issue?


----------



## Fenu S

Venture cars are back on #381 Carl Sandburg.


----------



## PerRock

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Is the venture car order still a work in progress for the midwest or have all the deliveries occurred and still using older cars because of the water pipe lead issue?


I believe all the coach cars have been delivered, and we're waiting on cafe, business, and cab (for WI) cars. I would think that by now the lead issue has been taken care of & that there are other issues they're dealing with, but Amtrak (and the DoTs) have been very tight-lipped about what the hold up is.

peter


----------



## GDRRiley

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Is the venture car order still a work in progress for the midwest or have all the deliveries occurred and still using older cars because of the water pipe lead issue?


Its still a work in progress, I believe finally cab cars are starting production but generally its going to be a bit longer till all are done. California is estimating the last of its cars will be in service by the start of 2024 and thats without cafe cars.


----------



## thully

Saw a picture of today's 352 someone posted elsewhere, and it had one Venture coach and the rest of them were older cars. That is weird - though having them more spread out would mean a greater chance of getting one on my next trip on the Wolverine (at least as long as they don't make me sit in the older cars, which is probably more of a concern leaving from Chicago than going to Chicago or anywhere else).


----------



## joelkfla

Trains Are Awesome:


----------



## rs9

Is anyone aware of the issues holding up the introduction of the business and cafe cars?


----------



## PerRock

rs9 said:


> Is anyone aware of the issues holding up the introduction of the business and cafe cars?



I don't believe they've been built and/or delivered yet.


----------



## MisterUptempo

A side note on the Venture cars...I have been digging into the Illinois Rail Needs Assessment Report, that was released in July, but I just discovered in the last week. While compiling the report, IDOT, in meetings with stakeholders and during the public comment period, asked what rail projects and improvements each person or entity would like to see addressed by IDOT.

IDOT's own Office of Intermodal Project Implementation mentioned that they would like to order 41 more Venture cars to fully replace all legacy cars within the Midwest fleet. It did not survive the filtering process, but it shows they _might _be happy enough with the Ventures that they want a bunch more.

The Office of Intermodal Project Implementation also asked that 33 Siemens Charger locomotives be retrofitted with shunt enhancement devices "to increase the reliability of passenger trains activating warning devices at highway-rail grade crossings." Is that the solution arrived at by IDOT, Amtrak, and CN regarding the shunting problems on Illini/Saluki? Anyone know?

They also want 17 Venture cars to be fitted with audio induction loops to assist those who are hard of hearing, as well as looking for funding to restripe all Midwest Chargers. The striping was originally done to match the Nippon-Sharyo bi-levels that never materialized, so now they want the Chargers to match the Ventures.

Unrelated, but IDOT (as mentioned in the CorridorID thread) estimates the cost of full build out of 110MPH CHI-STL at somewhere between $5-7 Billion, and upgrading to 220MPH service would be $12-15 Billion. No idea whether that would be _on top of _the 5-7 Billion or not.

None of the projects made the final cut, but we get a peek into what's being discussed, anyway.


----------



## TransitTyrant

PerRock said:


> I don't believe they've been built and/or delivered yet.


The Business cars are sitting in the yard outside Union Station. The cafe cars have yet to be delivered.


----------



## rs9

TransitTyrant said:


> The Business cars are sitting in the yard outside Union Station. The cafe cars have yet to be delivered.


Just seems really odd they are not in service presuming all boarding issues have been cleared up.


----------



## TransitTyrant

rs9 said:


> Just seems really odd they are not in service presuming all boarding issues have been cleared up.


Can’t confirm but there are rumors they’re waiting for the cafe cars. The setup is different, instead it business class/cafe cars they’re business and coach class cars.


----------



## TransitTyrant

MisterUptempo said:


> A side note on the Venture cars...I have been digging into the Illinois Rail Needs Assessment Report, that was released in July, but I just discovered in the last week. While compiling the report, IDOT, in meetings with stakeholders and during the public comment period, asked what rail projects and improvements each person or entity would like to see addressed by IDOT.
> 
> IDOT's own Office of Intermodal Project Implementation mentioned that they would like to order 41 more Venture cars to fully replace all legacy cars within the Midwest fleet. It did not survive the filtering process, but it shows they _might _be happy enough with the Ventures that they want a bunch more.
> 
> The Office of Intermodal Project Implementation also asked that 33 Siemens Charger locomotives be retrofitted with shunt enhancement devices "to increase the reliability of passenger trains activating warning devices at highway-rail grade crossings." Is that the solution arrived at by IDOT, Amtrak, and CN regarding the shunting problems on Illini/Saluki? Anyone know?
> 
> They also want 17 Venture cars to be fitted with audio induction loops to assist those who are hard of hearing, as well as looking for funding to restripe all Midwest Chargers. The striping was originally done to match the Nippon-Sharyo bi-levels that never materialized, so now they want the Chargers to match the Ventures.
> 
> Unrelated, but IDOT (as mentioned in the CorridorID thread) estimates the cost of full build out of 110MPH CHI-STL at somewhere between $5-7 Billion, and upgrading to 220MPH service would be $12-15 Billion. No idea whether that would be _on top of _the 5-7 Billion or not.
> 
> None of the projects made the final cut, but we get a peek into what's being discussed, anyway.


The only thing regarding the IL Rail Needs Assessment is that projects already funded and supposedly in planning like Rockford, Moline, and CN improvements were declined? Maybe that’s why? Also ordering more Ventures is a guarantee if they get service expansions and more round trips on routes like the Wolverine and Lincoln Service. The locomotives will also require rehabs wether the IL Needs Assessment recommends it or not. 

Amtrak recently was testing shunts on the CN line and they could be installed on locomotives within the next few months. The 2nd round trip likely won’t return until then.


----------



## GDRRiley

MisterUptempo said:


> IDOT's own Office of Intermodal Project Implementation mentioned that they would like to order 41 more Venture cars to fully replace all legacy cars within the Midwest fleet. It did not survive the filtering process, but it shows they _might _be happy enough with the Ventures that they want a bunch more.


interesting California was looking at 4 more 7 car sets but those seem almost certainly not happening given our options for FLIRTs. 
I believe caltrans wants to avoid high floor cars from now on so maybe if the FLIRTS work out then IODT can get some of our ventures at a later day. 

Feels like they should order enough for an expansion not just enough to replace the existing ones.


----------



## MisterUptempo

TransitTyrant said:


> The only thing regarding the IL Rail Needs Assessment is that projects already funded and supposedly in planning like Rockford, Moline, and CN improvements were declined? Maybe that’s why? Also ordering more Ventures is a guarantee if they get service expansions and more round trips on routes like the Wolverine and Lincoln Service. The locomotives will also require rehabs wether the IL Needs Assessment recommends it or not.
> 
> Amtrak recently was testing shunts on the CN line and they could be installed on locomotives within the next few months. The 2nd round trip likely won’t return until then.


Agreed that since Quad Cities/Rockford service and IC mainline improvements have secured funding is the likely reason they did not make the cut.

In addition to more Ventures, IDOT OIPI wants to expand the fleet of Chargers, as well as establish a fund for locomotive fleet overhauls. 

The criteria used to determine which projects moved forward (increasing freight and/or passenger rail capacity, improving economic conditions, fair distribution of funding across the state, environmental justice, etc.) likely meant a fund for loco overhauls did not score high. That's not to say they won't get the necessary funding. It's just setting up a maintenance fund likely wouldn't have met the goals of the Needs Assessment.


----------



## Steve4031

Is there any idea when the venture cars will be used on the Hiawatha service?


----------



## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A large number of posts about food service and vending machines etc. have been moved to its own thread at:






Amtrak Cafe service, vending machines etc. discussion


Levy did not specifically call out LD trains, but that is his modus operendi - ignore realities and facts they do not fit his model, or have a "let 'em eat cake" mentality. You cannot have a civil discussion with him. A few years ago, he proposed the LIRR end all rush hour main line express...




www.amtraktrains.com





Please continue the food service, cafe and vending machines discussion in the new thread, and leave this thread to discuss Midwest (and not California) Venture cars. There is a California equipment thread to discuss California Venture and other sets. Any food service post in this thread after this note will be removed, unless it has direct connection to Midwest Venture introduction.

Thank you for you understanding, cooperation and participation.


----------



## Steve4031

I asked this question earlier. Does anyone know when the venture cars will operate on the Milwaukee line?


----------



## TransitTyrant

Steve4031 said:


> I asked this question earlier. Does anyone know when the venture cars will operate on the Milwaukee line?


No, likely after the cab cars are delivered.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Aren't the cars for the Hiawatha part of a separate order? They're being bought by Wisconsin, not Illinois, Michigan and Missouri.


----------



## Steve4031

Yes, I believe Wisconsin did tack on to the original order now that I think about it. So it may be awhile.


----------



## TransitTyrant

MikefromCrete said:


> Aren't the cars for the Hiawatha part of a separate order? They're being bought by Wisconsin, not Illinois, Michigan and Missouri.


I thought it was Wisconsin added onto the order with 6 coaches and 3 cab cars.


----------



## rs9

This article is paywalled, and only offers vague information, but here goes in regard to the business class cars. One quote I was able to find from the story:

"Over the next year, the passenger rail company is adding railcars with 36 business-class seats to its pool of trains shared by Illinois, Michigan, Missouri and Wisconsin."









On Amtrak, business class is getting bigger and passengers are bidding for better seats


The passenger rail company is more than doubling the size of its business-class cabins on Midwest routes.




www.chicagobusiness.com





So...not sure that gives us much except that there might actually be somewhat of a timeline for these cars to come online.


----------



## thully

Just made a trip to the Ann Arbor station to see 353 - it’s running all Horizons. Want to head back there to see 352 at some point this week to get an idea of if any of the consists have Ventures. They could also be the withdrawn consist of 350/355, which should return next Monday.


----------



## moselman66

Steve4031 said:


> I asked this question earlier. Does anyone know when the venture cars will operate on the Milwaukee line?



For what it's worth the Hiawatha finally appears to be getting a 5th coach car during the week. Not sure if they have stopped at five for now or if they have gone back to (pre-COVID) 6 coaches. But given so many trains sold out or > 90% over the past several months the added capacity is welcome. 

I've not seen anything other than Horizon or Amfleet so no word on Venture, but perhaps their presence is at least allowing more capacity again on CHI-MKE.


----------



## Trogdor

moselman66 said:


> For what it's worth the Hiawatha finally appears to be getting a 5th coach car during the week. Not sure if they have stopped at five for now or if they have gone back to (pre-COVID) 6 coaches. But given so many trains sold out or > 90% over the past several months the added capacity is welcome.
> 
> I've not seen anything other than Horizon or Amfleet so no word on Venture, but perhaps their presence is at least allowing more capacity again on CHI-MKE.



The 5th car is the cafe car. Back in pre-COVID times, the cafe car provided surge capacity for 330/332/337/339 (it was closed at other times, because otherwise Amtrak would have to consistently staff an extra assistant conductor for a revenue train that long). It may have also provided WiFi capability (originally, the cabbage cars were the WiFi brain cars for the Hiawatha, but I don’t know if that is still the case or not).

Not being a regular on that train during peak times, I don’t know if the cafe is just there for WiFi purposes or if they actually open it up to passengers, but given the inconsistency with which the cabbages have been on-again, off-again on the Hiawatha consists in recent months, they might be there just for the WiFi even if the cabbage still has the modems working.


----------



## Bob Dylan

There is no Food or Drink on the Hiawathas. There used to be an Attendant that Sold Snacks and Drinks from a Cart similar to the Airline Service Ones, but that was discontinued as a Cost cutting Measure by the Bean Counters!


----------



## Steve4031

I rode in a cafe/business class car once or twice on the Hiawatha. The car was not crowded so I self-upgraded. The conductor just scanned my ticket. I am not sure that I could get away with this everytime this car is used.


----------



## thully

Just saw Wolverine 352(17) in Ann Arbor. It was delayed over 2 hours due to a freight train dropping equipment and having to go back and retrieve it (twice! on a line owned by MDOT!). The Thruway bus to Toledo arrived while waiting for 352 - I heard the station agent talking with the driver and on the phone regarding whether to hold it, as a 352 passenger was connecting to it. Ultimately it was not held, and it sounded like they were probably going to arrange an Uber for said passenger (who was connecting to 48 - I pity them with that layover).

I was at the station mainly to observe the consist and get video - nearly left during each of the two delays, only for the train to start moving again. Once the train arrived, I somehow pressed the wrong button and did not get video. Alas, it wouldn’t have been that interesting anyway, as 352(17), just like 353(17) earlier, was using all Horizon coaches. Given that, we can say that as of now, Ventures are not being used on the Wolverine. That’s definitely disappointing, as I wanted to take a trip in part to ride them.

With that said, I am wondering - what happened to the Venture consist that was being used on the Wolverine previously? Is it the consist used by 350/355 that was taken out of service, or was it reallocated to the Pere Marquette (which started running Ventures recently) or another train altogether?


----------



## west point

Maybe coaches spread out to cover bad order Ventures?


----------



## TransitTyrant

Courtesy of Facebook, Jim PRR fan, four Ventures on 51 north to Chicago from Beechgrove. Also a couple of Superliner Sleepers.


----------



## thully

Hmm - wonder if these Ventures are en route to be used on the consist for the resuming 350/355 Wolverine. As for the sleepers, they could use some more on the western trains - wonder if some may get a second sleeper back.


----------



## jis

thully said:


> Hmm - wonder if these Ventures are en route to be used on the consist for the resuming 350/355 Wolverine. As for the sleepers, they could use some more on the western trains - wonder if some may get a second sleeper back.


Some are slated to get one additional Sleeper as we approach Thanksgiving.


----------



## daybeers

jis said:


> Some are slated to get one additional Sleeper as we approach Thanksgiving.


Oh boy, how generous of them!!


----------



## Touchdowntom9

For some reason it is so offputting to see the venture cars paired with such a mishmash of equipment. I get that they dont have unlimited funding, but cant we get a unified looking train? The sleepers look like they are from WW2 and the baggage cars are even worse


----------



## GDRRiley

Touchdowntom9 said:


> For some reason it is so offputting to see the venture cars paired with such a mishmash of equipment. I get that they dont have unlimited funding, but cant we get a unified looking train? The sleepers look like they are from WW2 and the baggage cars are even worse


its just an equipment move
amtrak phase III doesn't match well with the midwest


----------



## Cal

Touchdowntom9 said:


> For some reason it is so offputting to see the venture cars paired with such a mishmash of equipment. I get that they dont have unlimited funding, but cant we get a unified looking train? The sleepers look like they are from WW2 and the baggage cars are even worse


Well they could've chosen to paint the VII cars to match the Phase 4/5 scheme but they didn't. 

Venture cars should eventually only be paired with other ventures and SC-44's in service so that's not an issue.


----------



## CHImdw1522

Why are the Venture cars so brightly lit? Is there any way for the conductor to dim the lights - especially in the evening or at night?


----------



## rs9

How is it that Venture cars, which have barely been in service, need repair work already at Beech Grove? Something is not right with this whole situation.


----------



## PerRock

rs9 said:


> How is it that Venture cars, which have barely been in service, need repair work already at Beech Grove? Something is not right with this whole situation.



They were primarily storing them at Beech Grove. Chicago doesn't have the yard space for the entire fleet to just sit there.


----------



## CHImdw1522

PerRock said:


> They were primarily storing them at Beech Grove. Chicago doesn't have the yard space for the entire fleet to just sit there.


So, why are they sitting anywhere, and not being put into service?


----------



## west point

PerRock said:


> They were primarily storing them at Beech Grove. Chicago doesn't have the yard space for the entire fleet to just sit there.



What has happened to the proposal gor Amtrak to acquire the yard south of the river bridge??


----------



## Eric S

west point said:


> What has happened to the proposal gor Amtrak to acquire the yard south of the river bridge??


Believe it is part of the Chicago Access program (or whatever the name is) that Amtrak is seeking funding for.


----------



## GDRRiley

CHImdw1522 said:


> So, why are they sitting anywhere, and not being put into service?


they had a list of issues that were being fixed before they were put into service


----------



## Amtrak25

GDRRiley said:


> they had a list of issues that were being fixed before they were put into service



Why didn't they deadhead them back to Sacramento and tell allmighty Siemens to fix their toys, especially if Beech Grove or Chicago would not ?


----------



## joelkfla

Amtrak25 said:


> Why didn't they deadhead them back to Sacramento and tell allmighty Siemens to fix their toys, especially if Beech Grove or Chicago would not ?


Who said Beech Grove wouldn't fix them? And what makes you think Siemens wasn't involved in resolving any issues?


----------



## GDRRiley

Amtrak25 said:


> Why didn't they deadhead them back to Sacramento and tell allmighty Siemens to fix their toys, especially if Beech Grove or Chicago would not ?


Siemens doesn't have yard space to store a bunch of coaches and moving all the cars back to the west coast would be expensive compared to sending them just a bit south to beach grove. 
Siemens is going to need to grow their factory for the amtrak order, I have no idea how they are going to do VIA without more space


----------



## Amtrak25

joelkfla said:


> Who said Beech Grove wouldn't fix them? And what makes you think Siemens wasn't involved in resolving any issues?



They have been sitting there so long, might as well have sent them back and get them fixed.


----------



## west point

Siemens is in the slow process of acquiring more land adjaecent to present facility. Even have a temporar permit to store some of the unfinished cars. But have not gotten final rezoning.


----------



## Trogdor

Amtrak25 said:


> Why didn't they deadhead them back to Sacramento and tell allmighty Siemens to fix their toys, especially if Beech Grove or Chicago would not ?



The deliverables, and any remediation for defects, would be covered by the contract Siemens signed with the states that acquired the cars, and with Amtrak who agreed to operate and maintain them.

Stuff like that would normally be handled (as it was in this case) someplace other than the site where they were manufactured.

These aren’t simple consumer goods where you just take it back to the store.


----------



## piemadd

PerRock said:


> I don't believe they've been built and/or delivered yet.


Business class cars have been delivered, but the holdup is with the cafe cars. I cannot remember when we're expecting those to come in.


----------



## Amtrak25

Aren't the business class and cafe cars supposed to be married pairs, but not with each other, but each to a coach?


----------



## piemadd

Amtrak25 said:


> Aren't the business class and cafe cars supposed to be married pairs, but not with each other, but each to a coach?


It is kind of complex. Some are individual but some are meant to be married pairs. I have a few videos of business class cars sitting in the Chicago yard, but I couldn't tell you if any were married pairs or not.


----------



## GDRRiley

Venture cars can be converted from married to single units or to a trainset, as I understand it 2 things change the doors between cars to an open gangway and the replacement of couples with a fixed pin.


----------



## Mailliw

Amtrak25 said:


> Aren't the business class and cafe cars supposed to be married pairs, but not with each other, but each to a coach?





Amtrak25 said:


> Aren't the business class and cafe cars supposed to be married pairs, but not with each other, but each to a coach?


Are the business class cars full coaches? I thought they were going to be half business/ half economy coaches married to economy coaches?


----------



## TransitTyrant

Mailliw said:


> Are the business class cars full coaches? I thought they were going to be half business/ half economy coaches married to economy coaches?


Probably closer to 60% coach and 40% business class.


----------



## rs9

TransitTyrant said:


> Probably closer to 60% coach and 40% business class.


I've seen a diagram of the business/eco cars but I can't find it - that said, at least by space taken up, the car is about 75% business class seats.

This document states 52 total revenue seats in the business/eco cars. https://assets.new.siemens.com/siem...enture-Passenger-Cars-Data-Sheet_original.pdf

Trying to recall visually, I believe there are 5 rows of eco seats (20), ten rows of business class seats (30), and one additional row of 2 business class seats with the single spot open for a wheelchair. That is an estimate, but I definitely remember the eco section is small.

Now for my elitist comment: perhaps IDOT has data to support it, but it feels like a really silly idea to have eco seats in a business class car, because it's no longer a business class car. Make it a separate car with a greater probability of peace and quiet.


----------



## thully

Someone on the Facebook group “Amtrak Michigan Line” posted a picture of 350 running with 4 Venture coaches. Happy to see them back - perhaps I will plan a trip soon…


----------



## TransitTyrant

Wonder if those are the cars recently released from Beech Grove.


----------



## TRA_Thom

thully said:


> Someone on the Facebook group “Amtrak Michigan Line” posted a picture of 350 running with 4 Venture coaches. Happy to see them back - perhaps I will plan a trip soon…


Happy to see the 350 and 355 back in general too.


----------



## thully

Just did a day trip on 350 and 355 - Ann Arbor to Troy and back. The consist had 3 Venture cars and 2 cafe cars. It had 4 Ventures when 350 went back into service on Wednesday, but I heard one of the had problems, apparently necessitating the swap. Figure the extra cafe must be for axle count or similar reasons. Overall, the experience was what I expected - it is nice to have newer equipment, though as others have indicated the seats aren’t as comfortable as the older cars. I posted a full trip report in that forum: 






Day trip on the Wolverine - a Venture adventure


I’ve been wanting to check out the new Venture cars on the Wolverine, and finally got the opportunity today. I had previously booked train 350 as my return from the Empire Builder trip after they started using Ventures on that, only for equipment to be swapped around due to a service disruption...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Steve4031

Rode 318 back from St Louis today. It was a complete venture consist except for lounge car. There were automated messages for the stops. And the digital overhead signs in each car showed the stood like on some of the newer subway cars. At Chicago all doors were open. I was on the last car and got of at an unattended door. So the doors and steps worked as designed in this instance.


----------



## TransitTyrant

Steve4031 said:


> Rode 318 back from St Louis today. It was a complete venture consist except for lounge car. There were automated messages for the stops. And the digital overhead signs in each car showed the stood like on some of the newer subway cars. At Chicago all doors were open. I was on the last car and got of at an unattended door. So the doors and steps worked as designed in this instance.


That’s interesting then, because for months the automated announcements and digital signs weren’t operational.


----------



## Cal

Steve4031 said:


> It was a complete venture consist except for lounge car.


Wait, business class cars are in service now!?!?!


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Rode 318 back from St Louis today. It was a complete venture consist except for lounge car. There were automated messages for the stops. And the digital overhead signs in each car showed the stood like on some of the newer subway cars. At Chicago all doors were open. I was on the last car and got of at an unattended door. So the doors and steps worked as designed in this instance.


During our visit to the Brightline OIA maintenance facility we got to see one of the new trainsets demonstrate how things would work if the train operated at a mixed platform height station. Some of the doors had temporary platforms adjacent to them and other did not. Doors that were open at the temporary platforms had the trap down and the bridge plate extended to fill the gap between the train and the platform. The doors that were at the low level platform had the traps up and the steps down all the way to the platform, no stepping stool required. Then they shut all the doors. All the deployed hardware withdrew into the body of the cars and the doors closed. Very impressive.

I am sure when things are working properly that is how the Ventures will be in the Midwest too.


----------



## Steve4031

Cal said:


> Wait, business class cars are in service now!?!?!


Please forgive me for the confusing post. I was lazy when typing the information in on my iPhone. It was one amfleet business-class dinette car and the rest of the cars were venture cars.


jis said:


> During our visit to the Brightline OIA maintenance facility we got to see one of the new trainsets demonstrate how things would work if the train operated at a mixed platform height station. Some of the doors had temporary platforms adjacent to them and other did not. Doors that were open at the temporary platforms had the trap down and the bridge plate extended to fill the gap between the train and the platform. The doors that were at the low level platform had the traps up and the steps down all the way to the platform, no stepping stool required. Then they shut all the doors. All the deployed hardware withdrew into the body of the cars and the doors closed. Very impressive.
> 
> I am sure when things are working properly that is how the Ventures will be in the Midwest too.


That is what I saw in Chicago minus the need for exiting from different levels of platforms.


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## Steve4031

Cal said:


> Wait, business class cars are in service now!?!?!


Please forgive me for the confusing post. I was lazy when typing the information in on my iPhone. It was one amfleet business-class dinette car and the rest of the cars were venture cars.


jis said:


> During our visit to the Brightline OIA maintenance facility we got to see one of the new trainsets demonstrate how things would work if the train operated at a mixed platform height station. Some of the doors had temporary platforms adjacent to them and other did not. Doors that were open at the temporary platforms had the trap down and the bridge plate extended to fill the gap between the train and the platform. The doors that were at the low level platform had the traps up and the steps down all the way to the platform, no stepping stool required. Then they shut all the doors. All the deployed hardware withdrew into the body of the cars and the doors closed. Very impressive.
> 
> I am sure when things are working properly that is how the Ventures will be in the Midwest too.


That is what I saw in Chicago minus the need for exiting from different levels of platfo


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## TheMalahat

On Facebook there's a few photos of a Amtrak Midwest venture coach, on its own, in Canada apparently en route to Montreal. Any idea why this is? I'll update if I read more!


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## Mailliw

Maybe it's some kind of procedural step required to get approval to run the Venture Coaches in Canada? On one hand the Cascades are the next route scheduled to get them, but on the other hand that's 2 years away and VIA Rail is already taking delivery of the exact same model of cars.


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## TransitTyrant

An interesting note from the Amtrak board meeting, Amtrak was expecting 60 cars to be in service by now. Currently only about 30 are service ready with about 25 available at any one day. Siemens has to send techs to work on the cars in the field, they can’t take the cars back to the factory.


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## GDRRiley

TransitTyrant said:


> An interesting note from the Amtrak board meeting, Amtrak was expecting 60 cars to be in service by now. Currently only about 30 are service ready with about 25 available at any one day. Siemens has to send techs to work on the cars in the field, they can’t take the cars back to the factory.


Not surprised Siemens can't take any back, they need a larger shop complex badly. I've got no idea how they expect to crank out 20 mainline cars and locos a month from their tiny plant + light rail.
Going to be interesting to see if the California batch have the same issues the first 21 are suppose to be in service by the end of march 2023.


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## TheMalahat

Apparently the loan Amtrak car.in Canada is headed for the National Research Centre in Ottawa. Typically this be facility is used for cold-weather testing; I haven't read anything than can provide a _why_ for the car being in Canada, though.


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## west point

Mailliw said:


> Maybe it's some kind of procedural step required to get approval to run the Venture Coaches in Canada? On one hand the Cascades are the next route scheduled to get them, but on the other hand that's 2 years away and VIA Rail is already taking delivery of the exact same model of cars.


The big difference will be VIA's HEP set up compared to Amtrak's.


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## penguinflies

The 5 rows of econ in biz class sounds like they can have the "reserved for crew" area. 

Not a bad option from having to use up dining tables. Hopefully radios can be kept to a low volume.


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## Mailliw

20 seats for crew seams excessive, even if each crewmember is getting 2 seats. I think it would make more sense to have a Euro-style seating compartment with a locking door for the crew.


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## jis

west point said:


> The big difference will be VIA's HEP set up compared to Amtrak's.


Amtrak trains running into Canada that will eventually use Venture Cars will not be using VIA HEP setup. They will use Amtrak HEP setup both on the Cascades and the Empire Service.


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## Anthony V

I have several questions about the construction and deployment of the new Midwest venture equipment:

Have any of the Venture Business class cars gone into service yet on the Midwest routes?
If yes, does anyone have a photo of the interior of a Venture Business class car?
Has there been any progress on building and/or deploying the Venture Café cars?
If yes, does anyone have a photo of the exterior and/or interior of a Venture Café car?
Can someone post an update each time more Venture cars go into service?


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## TRA_Thom

Anthony V said:


> I have several questions about the construction and deployment of the new Midwest venture equipment:
> 
> Have any of the Venture Business class cars gone into service yet on the Midwest routes?
> If yes, does anyone have a photo of the interior of a Venture Business class car?
> Has there been any progress on building and/or deploying the Venture Café cars?
> If yes, does anyone have a photo of the exterior and/or interior of a Venture Café car?
> Can someone post an update each time more Venture cars go into service?


I still saw a bunch the Business class cars together in the yard at Chicago today. I don’t think they’re running yet. From the outside they don’t look very different from the coach cars.
What I’m curious about is the eventual introduction of the cab cars. I don’t know what the timeline is on those.


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## TRA_Thom

I’m on the (delayed) 350 right now. It’s an Amfleet Business/Cafe, 1 Venture, and 3 Horizons. And here’s a reason to appreciate the Venture car: the vestibules are snow-free. The other photos are of the Horizon cars on this same train. Kind of absurd how much snow can accumulate inside a train. The attendant is literally shoveling right now.
Also, it’s pretty chilly on these Horizons, but nice and warm on the Venture. Are the Venture cars more air/water tight than older cars? If so, that seems like an advantage to me in this weather.


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## Steve4031

I think once people and employees get use to the venture cars they will see the improvement. At first people hated the Amfleet cars but they saved Amtrsk with their reliability during cold winters. At first rail fans disliked the Superliners because of the lack of dome cars with forward views. Now there's concern we will lose the ambiance of the sightseer lounge cars. And there is out rage when one doesn't operate as scheduled.


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## Bob Dylan

TRA_Thom said:


> I’m on the (delayed) 350 right now. It’s an Amfleet Business/Cafe, 1 Venture, and 3 Horizons. And here’s a reason to appreciate the Venture car: the vestibules are snow-free. The other photos are of the Horizon cars on this same train. Kind of absurd how much snow can accumulate inside a train. The attendant is literally shoveling right now.
> Also, it’s pretty chilly on these Horizons, but nice and warm on the Venture. Are the Venture cars more air/water tight than older cars? If so, that seems like an advantage to me in this weather.


I am among those who think that Horizons should not be used where Cold Temps with Snow and Ice are Regular Winter occurences.


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## daybeers

Bob Dylan said:


> I am among those who think that Horizons should not be used where Cold Temps with Snow and Ice are Regular Winter occurences.


Same with the Amfleets. Unfortunately no choice in the matter due to the dwindling roster of single-level cars.


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## PVD

There are not that many Amtrak single level trains that don't have at least one end in cold weather.


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## TheMalahat

Steve4031 said:


> I think once people and employees get use to the venture cars they will see the improvement. At first people hated the Amfleet cars but they saved Amtrsk with their reliability during cold winters. At first rail fans disliked the Superliners because of the lack of dome cars with forward views. Now there's concern we will lose the ambiance of the sightseer lounge cars. And there is out rage when one doesn't operate as scheduled.



I think you're right; another one was the perceived end-of-times when the "unreliable" and "ugly" P42s came online. And here we are a few decades later and those locomotives aged well. 

However, the implementation of these cars into service is beyond tragic. I'm sure eventually we will get a clear answer to why this is happening - or, not happening.


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## TransitTyrant

TheMalahat said:


> I think you're right; another one was the perceived end-of-times when the "unreliable" and "ugly" P42s came online. And here we are a few decades later and those locomotives aged well.
> 
> However, the implementation of these cars into service is beyond tragic. I'm sure eventually we will get a clear answer to why this is happening - or, not happening.


I would guess Covid played a huge role in it along with the failure at Nippon Sharyo and that cost savings were implemented. Siemens rushed to complete the order during the worst possible time to, the Covid shutdowns. Quality control was clearly lacking. That’s backed up by the claims from crews testing the cars that the first batch delivered had loose ceiling tiles. There were a whole myriad of other issues claimed by various folks in many different quarters of the internet, issues that not need to be mentioned because the cars have actual proven issues. 

Cost “savings” came from subcontractors using lead based soder and a rather spartan interior design on the cars. The seats, while the same basic design on Brightline, use stiffer padding and less comfortable materials.


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## TransitTyrant

TRA_Thom said:


> I still saw a bunch the Business class cars together in the yard at Chicago today. I don’t think they’re running yet. From the outside they don’t look very different from the coach cars.
> What I’m curious about is the eventual introduction of the cab cars. I don’t know what the timeline is on those.




The cab cars have been under construction for a few months now.


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## MisterUptempo

TransitTyrant said:


> I would guess Covid played a huge role in it along with the failure at Nippon Sharyo and that cost savings were implemented. Siemens rushed to complete the order during the worst possible time to, the Covid shutdowns. Quality control was clearly lacking. That’s backed up by the claims from crews testing the cars that the first batch delivered had loose ceiling tiles. There were a whole myriad of other issues claimed by various folks in many different quarters of the internet, issues that not need to be mentioned because the cars have actual proven issues.
> 
> Cost “savings” came from subcontractors using lead based soder and a rather spartan interior design on the cars. The seats, while the same basic design on Brightline, use stiffer padding and less comfortable materials.


Regarding Nippon-Sharyo, I can recall when Caltrans/Sumitomo turned to Siemens for what would eventually become the Venture cars. The NGEC quickly went to work and increased the allowable weight for single-level cars by more than 20%, to allow the Venture cars to confirm to standards.

I wonder, had Nippon-Sharyo been granted an additional 20% weight bump, whether their bi-level design might have passed the buff strength testing, and we'd be complaining about _those _rail cars instead, or whether their engineering was just that bad, and N-S got in over their heads.


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## Touchdowntom9

MisterUptempo said:


> Regarding Nippon-Sharyo, I can recall when Caltrans/Sumitomo turned to Siemens for what would eventually become the Venture cars. The NGEC quickly went to work and increased the allowable weight for single-level cars by more than 20%, to allow the Venture cars to confirm to standards.
> 
> I wonder, had Nippon-Sharyo been granted an additional 20% weight bump, whether their bi-level design might have passed the buff strength testing, and we'd be complaining about _those _rail cars instead, or whether their engineering was just that bad, and N-S got in over their heads.


Are the Siemens ventures unusually heavy? Or are those cars pretty standard and the NGEC guidelines just unusually strict?


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## Dutchrailnut

Amfleet cars, (stainless steel) 

Weight106,000–113,000 pounds (48,000–51,000 kg)
A Bombardier Comet commuter car (aluminium)

Weight100,000 lb (45,359 kg)
The Venture cars

Weight112,000 lb (50,802 kg)


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## Touchdowntom9

Dutchrailnut said:


> Amfleet cars, (stainless steel)
> 
> Weight106,000–113,000 pounds (48,000–51,000 kg)
> A Bombardier Comet commuter car (aluminium)
> 
> Weight100,000 lb (45,359 kg)
> The Venture cars
> 
> Weight112,000 lb (50,802 kg)


Seems to be less than 20% overweight compared to average, if not just a tiny bit above “average”


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## Metra Electric Rider

Drove over a Lincoln Service (inbound) on NYD in the morning @ LaGrange Road (have seen them alongside the Stevenson a few times too) with an Amfleet bringing up the read. There is still something quasi-futuristic about the Amfleets, but endearingly clunky at the same time. The Siemens cars really do look more modern, especially the livery.


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## penguinflies

Curious What consist is amtrak 307 typically, currently running?


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