# Masks now required even in private room with door closed.



## merkelman06 (Feb 9, 2021)

Amtrak has removed the phrase from their website saying you can remove your mask while in your private room with the door closed. It says required at all times except for actively eating or drinking or taking medication. They are citing federal policy that was just signed. Oh boy.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Feb 9, 2021)

The new law does not have an exemption for private Amtrak rooms, so Amtrak can no longer explicitly say that you can remove your mask inside a private room. However, I seriously doubt they are doing checks when the curtains are closed, and even if they were you could just put a mask on when they knock, so enforcement is essentially impossible. Additionally, enforcing masks in a private room would have little to no health benefit; it's likely there was not an exemption simply because private train rooms are currently such a niche travel mode.


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## Exvalley (Feb 9, 2021)

This is consistent with the new Executive Order signed by Biden. The order says that masks must be worn on interstate public transportation, and has no exemption for Amtrak roomettes and bedrooms.


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## Qapla (Feb 9, 2021)

Try enforcing that when the door/curtain is closed


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## Cal (Feb 9, 2021)

Qapla said:


> Try enforcing that when the door/curtain is closed


That's what I'll be doing on my up coming trip... No way I am keeping my mask on for the week I'm travelling


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 10, 2021)

Qapla said:


> Try enforcing that when the door/curtain is closed


Oh my! I'm home and my door is shut... and thinking I'm safe... for now...


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## Steve4031 (Feb 10, 2021)

The thought of sleeping with one on makes me say no way. Then I think about the coach passengers. They would have to have it on even if they are sleeping which is understandable for coach. 

In the sleeper the door is closed and locked. And curtains shut. Good luck enforcing this. Of course if there’s a knock I just put it on and open the door.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 10, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> The thought of sleeping with one on makes me say no way. Then I think about the coach passengers. They would have to have it on even if they are sleeping which is understandable for coach.
> 
> In the sleeper the door is closed and locked. And curtains shut. Good luck enforcing this. Of course if there’s a knock I just put it on and open the door.



I believe it's the law that if an Amtrak official knocks on your door you must open it.

Will wait for the all-clear before I ride the rails again... especially now when unnecessary travel is not recommended.


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## Qapla (Feb 10, 2021)

I would love to take a day-trip  but not anytime soon


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 10, 2021)

Qapla said:


> I would love to take a day-trip  but not anytime soon


Tomorrow will take a short trip down the coast to Coos Bay to do some shopping. There are more stores down there... so I'll put on my tapes and just glide along. Then I'll mess around where the still active Coos Bay rail link functions transporting goods from the port to Eugene. When I get home will whip up some clam chowder. With a little creativity it's possible to get along during this difficult time and find the good things that can be had.

Of course a day trip on the train would be preferred! 

BTW Coos Bay does indeed have a functioning railroad and at one time had passenger traffic!!!









Port of Coos Bay Celebrates 100 Years of Rail


On August 5, the Port of Coos Bay, Oregon, celebrated the centennial of its Coos Bay Rail Link, which connects the coastal port with the North




www.maritime-executive.com


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## oregon pioneer (Feb 10, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Will wait for the all-clear before I ride the rails again... especially now when unnecessary travel is not recommended.



Same here! Wish I could train across the country to see family, but it depends on so many factors. Not happening yet, as long as there are so many hazards and restrictions along the way.


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## Qapla (Feb 10, 2021)

The bummer part is - right now a round trip to Tampa and back is only $34 but it only works on Friday or Saturday. Not the day I would want to go.

Not to mention it would require 4-5 hours each way confined in a metal tube with people who may not take C-19 seriously.

I will wait !


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## MARC Rider (Feb 11, 2021)

Qapla said:


> The bummer part is - right now a round trip to Tampa and back is only $34 but it only works on Friday or Saturday. Not the day I would want to go.
> 
> Not to mention it would require 4-5 hours each way confined in a metal tube with people who may not take C-19 seriously.
> 
> I will wait !


I've done 4 day trips since the pandemic started, plus one trip right before they shut everything down. I never felt uncomfortable -- the coaches were half full or less, and pretty much all of the passengers were good about mask-wearing. Also, except for the trip to/from Boston in the beginning of March, right before things got hairy, my trips were shorter, two Baltimore-DC trips at 45 minutes, a trip to New York at 2 1/2 to 3 hours, and a trip to Philadelphia at 1 hour, 15 minutes. If the cases keep going down like they've been doing around here over the past couple of weeks, I might consider a day trip to New York, mainly to see the Moynihan Train Hall. On the other hand, I might wait until I get vaccinated and/or the weather gets a bit warmer, so I can actually do something in New York when I get there.


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## Mailliw (Feb 11, 2021)

I wonder if the mask mandate for federal property included an exemption for private living quarters.


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## joelkfla (Feb 11, 2021)

Qapla said:


> The bummer part is - right now a round trip to Tampa and back is only $34 but it only works on Friday or Saturday. Not the day I would want to go.
> 
> Not to mention it would require 4-5 hours each way confined in a metal tube with people who may not take C-19 seriously.
> 
> I will wait !


In FL, the southbound Star is SaSuMo, and the northbound Star is ThFrSa, so it seems like the only opportunity for a day trip from Orlando is Saturday. I'm considering it just to ride the TECO trolley and hang out around the waterfront for a few hours, seeing as I'm now 2 weeks past my second vaccination. I wish it were possible on a weekday, when there would be fewer people out and about.

Were you contemplating an overnight stay from south of Tampa?


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## CTANut (Feb 11, 2021)

The CDC exempts people who are in a room by themselves from the mask mandate.
*Do workers at transportation hubs need to wear masks at all times or only when they can’t social distance?*
Employees must wear a mask while on the premises of a transportation hub unless they are only person in the work area, such as in private offices, private hangars at airports, or in railroad yards.

Employees are also exempted from the mask requirement if wearing a mask would create a risk to workplace health, safety, or job duty as determined by the relevant workplace safety guidelines or federal regulations.


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## pennyk (Feb 11, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> In FL, the southbound Star is SaSuMo, and the northbound Star is ThFrSa, so it seems like the only opportunity for a day trip from Orlando is Saturday. I'm considering it just to ride the TECO trolley and hang out around the waterfront for a few hours, seeing as I'm now 2 weeks past my second vaccination. I wish it were possible on a weekday, when there would be fewer people out and about.
> 
> Were you contemplating an overnight stay from south of Tampa?


I did a day trip to Tampa on a Saturday in October (in a sleeper). I definitely would have preferred a weekday. I found Tampa a bit too crowded for my liking. I walked to Ybor City from the Tampa Station, went to an outdoor brewery, then took the trolley back. I waited outside for the train both in Orlando and Tampa.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 11, 2021)

merkelman06 said:


> Amtrak has removed the phrase from their website saying you can remove your mask while in your private room with the door closed. It says required at all times except for actively eating or drinking or taking medication. They are citing federal policy that was just signed. Oh boy.


So long as you wear a mask while boarding and in public areas you're probably okay but if you get sloppy the staff will be obliged to remind you and if you refuse to comply they will be expected to remove you when practical to do so.



Qapla said:


> Try enforcing that when the door/curtain is closed


Closing the door/curtain may not be enough to ensure complete privacy. I've seen more than I cared to because some passengers did not consider placement of wall mirrors and such. It's possible this rule will be further clarified at some point to exclude private rooms with closed doors but I doubt that is any sort of priority right now.


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## Exvalley (Feb 11, 2021)

CTANut said:


> The CDC exempts people who are in a room by themselves from the mask mandate.
> *Do workers at transportation hubs need to wear masks at all times or only when they can’t social distance?*
> Employees must wear a mask while on the premises of a transportation hub unless they are only person in the work area, such as in private offices, private hangars at airports, or in railroad yards.
> 
> Employees are also exempted from the mask requirement if wearing a mask would create a risk to workplace health, safety, or job duty as determined by the relevant workplace safety guidelines or federal regulations.


The rule you cited is for transportation hubs, which would not apply to traveling on a train.

Regardless, the issue is not what the CDC says, but what Biden's Executive Order says. His order says that masks must be worn on "trains," and does not distinguish coach class from sleeper class.









Executive Order on Promoting COVID-19 Safety in Domestic and International Travel | The White House


By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows: Section 1.




www.whitehouse.gov


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## CTANut (Feb 11, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> The rule you cited is for transportation hubs, which would not apply to traveling on a train.
> 
> Regardless, the issue is not what the CDC says, but what Biden's Executive Order says. His order says that masks must be worn on "trains," and does not distinguish coach class from sleeper class.
> 
> ...


The executive order does not explicitly mention an exception for eating/drinking.


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## joelkfla (Feb 11, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Closing the door/curtain may not be enough to ensure complete privacy. I've seen more than I cared to because some passengers did not consider placement of wall mirrors and such. It's possible this rule will be further clarified at some point to exclude private rooms with closed doors but I doubt that is any sort of priority right now.


One needs to make sure to make full use of those those little Velcro strips.


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## Qapla (Feb 11, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Were you contemplating an overnight stay from south of Tampa?



I am north of Tampa and would not be interested in overnight. 

It is possible to take a day tip on Friday - it just leaves you little more than an hour in Tampa - providing the SB trip is not running late.


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## joelkfla (Feb 11, 2021)

Qapla said:


> I am north of Tampa and would not be interested in overnight.
> 
> It is possible to take a day tip on Friday - it just leaves you little more than an hour in Tampa - providing the SB trip is not running late.


So you must be using the Meteor + the Thruway bus? That would also be possible on Thursday.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 11, 2021)

With all this talk of desperately wanting to get in some rail travel time... I am absolutely looking forward to the day I can ride with other AU'ers and share the enthusiasm! 

All the more this COVID set back causes us to realize the joy of traveling on the train. 

Can't wait!   

BTW AU'ers are mentioned in the article below: 









Train lovers forge lifelong friendships through rail travel


For the past decade, these one-time strangers — all train geeks — have made several cross-country trips together on Amtrak.




www.chicagotribune.com


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## Qapla (Feb 11, 2021)

Well, I would not phrase it as "I am using" since I would not choose that route. For day trips we like to take the Star both ways if going to Tampa. If we go to Orlando or Kissimmee, back when both trains ran daily we had additional options.

I will not be taking any day trips on Amtrak anytime soon - so, perhaps daily service of both trains will be back by the time I take another day trip

Maybe by then we may not need masks ... one can hope


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## pennyk (Feb 11, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> BTW AU'ers are mentioned in the article below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All but one of the individuals mentioned in the article are AU members.


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## Exvalley (Feb 11, 2021)

CTANut said:


> The executive order does not explicitly mention an exception for eating/drinking.


I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that, because the order does not specifically exempt mask wearing while eating and drinking, Amtrak should interpret the order as allowing masks to be off while in a sleeper car? That seems to be quite a stretch.


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## flitcraft (Feb 11, 2021)

As any lawyer can tell you, executive orders are written at a higher level of generality than statutes or administrative regulations are. This is one reason why, all things being equal, statutes and administrative regulations are a better way to regulate than executive orders are. All of them require interpretation as to scope and meaning, of course, but executive orders require the highest degree of construal. 

That said, the real question is how the conduction and attendants on your train will interpret the rules. That a court would disagree won't matter if you get let out at the next station.


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## me_little_me (Feb 11, 2021)

CTANut said:


> The executive order does not explicitly mention an exception for eating/drinking.


I don't make an exception either. Sure, food does taste a little "clothy" and I often find that after eating, I can't find my mask, but there's no price high enough to keep me from being safe.

I have found that by putting a little salt on my mask, my food tastes a little better.


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## Mailliw (Feb 11, 2021)

Enforcement is impossible if you're in your compartment with curtains drawn. Just keep a mask ready in case they knock. I doubt Amtrak is going to remove the curtains (especially in VI roomettes) and and have SCAs monitor passengers.


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## jis (Feb 11, 2021)

It is always a good policy to ask the one who is going to do the local enforcement what his/her intentions are, and follow those. Biden won’t be on the train to enforce anything


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## Cal (Feb 11, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> BTW AU'ers are mentioned in the article below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was made in 1997... by a ten year old... wow. And by a now-airline executive, I personally wouldn't have guessed it. 

That is just awesome. 

And I won't lie, I'd probablyyy be one of the more timid folk.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Feb 11, 2021)

Until these ridiculous muzzle mask restrictions are listed my railroad and airline of choice remain Enterprise.


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## Chris I (Feb 11, 2021)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Until these ridiculous muzzle mask restrictions are listed my railroad and airline of choice remain Enterprise.


If you can't be an adult about it, it's probably for everyone's benefit that you don't share indoor spaces with others.


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## Pat Harper (Feb 12, 2021)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> The new law does not have an exemption for private Amtrak rooms, so Amtrak can no longer explicitly say that you can remove your mask inside a private room.


What new law? There is no law requiring mask wearing on public transportation, only a Presidential executive order which is not a law because Congress never voted on it. How are they going to enforce it? Does the order spell out the consequences for not complying with it?


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 12, 2021)

Chris I said:


> If you can't be an adult about it, it's probably for everyone's benefit that you don't share indoor spaces with others.


The need to wear masks is supported by science, medical experts, and those of us who want to live!


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 12, 2021)

Pat Harper said:


> What new law? There is no law requiring mask wearing on public transportation, only a Presidential executive order which is not a law because Congress never voted on it. How are they going to enforce it? Does the order spell out the consequences for not complying with it?



It was already an Amtrak rule that you had to wear a mask when riding the train. Amtrak Conductors will typically remove passengers who do not follow Amtrak rules. With or without a warning depending on the mood of the conductor lol.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 12, 2021)

Pat Harper said:


> What new law? There is no law requiring mask wearing on public transportation, only a Presidential executive order which is not a law because Congress never voted on it. How are they going to enforce it? Does the order spell out the consequences for not complying with it?



To anyone not wearing a mask in my presence... I want to avoid you like the plague...

Because you are the plague!


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 12, 2021)

Pat Harper said:


> What new law? There is no law requiring mask wearing on public transportation, only a Presidential executive order which is not a law because Congress never voted on it. How are they going to enforce it? Does the order spell out the consequences for not complying with it?


They'll enforce it the same way they would any other rule or regulation. Executive orders carry the force of law unless they are reversed, invalidated, or defunded. The order itself is a broad instruction to relevant agencies who are in charge of more specific rules and compliance standards. Passengers who refuse to comply may be kicked off/out, potentially forfeiting their ticket(s), and/or inviting a civil fine or other penalty. Criminal prosecution is unlikely unless the subject becomes aggressive or belligerent and once you succumb to "sovereign citizen" logic anything is possible.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 12, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> They'll enforce it the same way they would any other rule or regulation. Executive orders carry the force of law unless they are reversed, invalidated, or defunded. The order itself is a broad instruction to relevant agencies who are in charge of more specific rules and compliance standards. Passengers who refuse to comply may be kicked off/out, potentially forfeiting their ticket(s), and/or inviting a civil fine or other penalty. Criminal prosecution is unlikely unless the subject becomes aggressive or belligerent and once you succumb to "sovereign citizen" logic anything is possible.


Hopefully Amtrak will follow some of the Airlines example and put Anti- Maskers and Morons who refuse to follow the Guidelines on a "DO NOT RIDE" List!


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## AFS1970 (Feb 12, 2021)

I am certainly no political scientist but in one article that was criticizing behavior right after this EO was signed, I learned something interesting. The EO doesn't actually mandate masks, despite what the media has portrayed it as. It directs the agencies within the executive branch to develop their own mask mandates. It may list some specific points, but each mandate may end up being slightly different. So in the case of Amtrak, I would guess that this is done wither by DOT or by Amtrak. As for enforcement, I am not sure but would think that any departmental mask rule would fall in the same category as any other internal regulation or other administrative rule.


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## Cal (Feb 12, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Hopefully Amtrak will follow some of the Airlines example and put Anti- Maskers and Morons who refuse to follow the Guidelines on a "DO NOT RIDE" List!


That'd be great.


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## Exvalley (Feb 12, 2021)

AFS1970 said:


> I am certainly no political scientist but in one article that was criticizing behavior right after this EO was signed, I learned something interesting. The EO doesn't actually mandate masks, despite what the media has portrayed it as. It directs the agencies within the executive branch to develop their own mask mandates. It may list some specific points, but each mandate may end up being slightly different. So in the case of Amtrak, I would guess that this is done wither by DOT or by Amtrak. As for enforcement, I am not sure but would think that any departmental mask rule would fall in the same category as any other internal regulation or other administrative rule.


Yes and no. The Executive Order does direct certain agencies to make rules, but it also limits what they can and cannot do.

The Executive Order specifically says: _[The agencies] shall immediately take action, to the extent appropriate and consistent with applicable law, to require masks to be worn in compliance with CDC guidelines in or on [trains]._

The exceptions to this are extremely limited and are spelled out in the Executive Order. Here is the language in the Executive Order on exceptions:
_Exceptions. The heads of agencies may make categorical or case-by-case exceptions to policies developed under this section, consistent with applicable law, to the extent that doing so is necessary or required by law. If the heads of agencies do make exceptions, they shall require alternative and appropriate safeguards, and shall document all exceptions in writing._

I guess it boils down to what "to the extent appropriate" means. But if you are a bureaucrat or political appointee who knows that Biden's election platform involved an appeal to mask wearing, are you really going to want to stick your neck out and argue against mask wearing?


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 12, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Hopefully Amtrak will follow some of the Airlines example and put Anti- Maskers and Morons who refuse to follow the Guidelines on a "DO NOT RIDE" List!


Amtrak has already requested access to the official No Fly List and in response to the most recent insurrection event I would expect this change to be in planning if not active progress with a more inclusive No Travel List on the way.


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## Exvalley (Feb 12, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak has already requested access to the official No Fly List and in response to the most recent insurrection event I would expect this change to be in planning if not active progress with a more inclusive No Travel List on the way.


My understanding is that nobody who participated in storming the Capitol on 1/6 has been put on the federal "do not fly list." Whether or not they are ultimately put on the list remains to be seen.

Regardless, until and unless Amtrak is given access to the TSA list, Amtrak is free to maintain their own list. I suspect, though, that there are some additional due process considerations since the Supreme Court has ruled that Amtrak is a government entity.


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## jis (Feb 12, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I guess it boils down to what "to the extent appropriate" means. But if you are a bureaucrat or political appointee who knows that Biden's election platform involved an appeal to mask wearing, are you really going to want to stick your neck out and argue against mask wearing?


The most important characteristic of a good rule is that it clearly serves the purpose of the intent of the rule and is reasonably enforceable within the law. Patently unenforceable regulations are detrimental to people actually following regulations, a good bureaucrat would indeed state what the issue is, say in case of a Sleeper Room, and stick his neck out to do that to get the correct enforceable regulation in place so that people would take them seriously instead of laughing at them. Even Biden does not intend to have everyone wear their masks to bed in a private room. At least I do not believe he is that crazy.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 12, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> My understanding is that nobody who participated in storming the Capitol on 1/6 has been put on the federal "do not fly list." Whether or not they are ultimately put on the list remains to be seen. Amtrak is certainly free to maintain their own list, however.


Because the No Fly List is opaque it's impossible to know who is on it or when/why they were added. Almost any private business is allowed to create a list of customers they refuse to serve in the future. The reason I bring it up is that Amtrak made the connection in their appeal for more access.


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## LookingGlassTie (Feb 12, 2021)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Until these ridiculous muzzle mask restrictions are listed my railroad and airline of choice remain Enterprise.



Even though I currently wear masks only when/where I'm required to do so, I'm a little more willing to wear one on an Amtrak train, given that I'm in close(r) quarters with other people. I'm not bothered by that personally; I just understand the rationale behind Amtrak's policy.

Of course, my next (planned) Amtrak trip will (or should) be in February 2022. I don't know if Amtrak will still require masks then.

Just as long as I'm not required to wear a mask while riding in a friend's or family member's private vehicle.................


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## Exvalley (Feb 12, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Because the No Fly List is opaque it's impossible to know who is on it or when/why they were added. Almost any private business is allowed to create a list of customers they refuse to serve in the future. The reason I bring it up is that Amtrak made the connection in their appeal for more access.


The Supreme Court has ruled that Amtrak is a government entity, so there are due process considerations that do not apply to private companies.

And before you argue that there are minimal due process rights for the TSA do not fly list, remember that this list was a creation of The Aviation and Transportation Security Act of 2001. An Amtrak private list would not be. In other words, TSA is able to do what they do in large part because they have special statutory authority that Amtrak lacks.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 12, 2021)

LookingGlassTie said:


> Even though I currently wear masks only when/where I'm required to do so, I'm a little more willing to wear one on an Amtrak train, given that I'm in close(r) quarters with other people. I'm not bothered by that personally; I just understand the rationale behind Amtrak's policy.
> 
> Of course, my next (planned) Amtrak trip will (or should) be in February 2022. I don't know if Amtrak will still require masks then.
> 
> Just as long as I'm not required to wear a mask while riding in a friend's or family member's private vehicle.................


What if the other person ( or persons) in the Car is Positive for COVID????


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## lordsigma (Feb 12, 2021)

They are not enforcing people not wearing masks in their private rooms. They just can’t say you don’t have to. As long as you wear the mask in public areas of the train you won’t get flack. I actually had a fun trip the other day - I didn’t wear my mask in my room and no one said a word - I took my meal in the diner and spent a couple hours there chatting with some other passengers (socially distanced everyone at separate tables) and had a couple drinks.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 12, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> What if the other person ( or persons) in the Car is Positive for COVID????


Isn't this kind of disregard offensive! Too much of people being inconsiderate and not caring. They just see things the way they want to see them for their own convenience.

Thank you Jim for helping all of us on the forum make sure people are getting the message.

The reason a mask must be worn in the presence of others is to prevent the spread of the disease!!!

Please everyone... do the responsible thing for the good of all!


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## Skyline (Feb 12, 2021)

I have several itineraries involving primarily rail that I can't wait to enjoy. Both Amtrak and VIA. But for me, socialization on board is a big part of the attraction. So I'm saving my $$$ until Covid is in the rear view mirror and it's safe to be social again.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 12, 2021)

Skyline said:


> I have several itineraries involving primarily rail that I can't wait to enjoy. Both Amtrak and VIA. But for me, socialization on board is a big part of the attraction. So I'm saving my $$$ until Covid is in the rear view mirror and it's safe to be social again.


You're not alone in maintaining patience and waiting until the experience can be all that it should be!


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 12, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> The Supreme Court has ruled that Amtrak is a government entity, so there are due process considerations that do not apply to private companies. And before you argue that there are minimal due process rights for the TSA do not fly list, remember that this list was a creation of The Aviation and Transportation Security Act of 2001. An Amtrak private list would not be. In other words, TSA is able to do what they do in large part because they have special statutory authority that Amtrak lacks.


Amtrak was created as a quasi-governmental entity and the courts have chosen to interpret this shared domain in different ways at different times. There is no guarantee Amtrak _will_ be added to the No Fly List, and doing so may require an act of Congress and/or survival against a court challenge, but it's a rational goal and I would imagine that _moves toward this goal_ are being planned or acted upon in light of recent events. No telling where it goes from here.


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## Exvalley (Feb 12, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak was created as a quasi-governmental entity and the courts have chosen to interpret this shared domain in different ways at different times.


The Supreme Court has ruled 9-0 that Amtrak is a government entity. Once the Supreme Court has made that determination, thanks to stare decisis, it doesn't matter how a lower court has ruled. A government entity is subject to due process rights - full stop.


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## WWW (Feb 12, 2021)

Gee - 9-0 - now which part of the liberal conservative right left positive negative "middle of the road" don't you understand !


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## OlympianHiawatha (Feb 12, 2021)

Chris I said:


> If you can't be an adult about it, it's probably for everyone's benefit that you don't share indoor spaces with others.


And here we have the mantra of an Indoctrinated One!


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## JayPea (Feb 12, 2021)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Until these ridiculous muzzle mask restrictions are listed my railroad and airline of choice remain Enterprise.


I don't like wearing a mask. But I like riding Amtrak far more than I dislike wearing a mask.


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## flitcraft (Feb 12, 2021)

I like knowing I'm doing my part to help protect my community more than I like being able to wear lipstick!


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## me_little_me (Feb 13, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> I like knowing I'm doing my part to help protect my community more than I like being able to wear lipstick!


That's not what Radar said!


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## IndyLions (Feb 13, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> That's not what Radar said!


I know I’m often “slow on the uptake” - but did you mean Klinger?


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## IndyLions (Feb 13, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> They are not enforcing people not wearing masks in their private rooms. They just can’t say you don’t have to. As long as you wear the mask in public areas of the train you won’t get flack. I actually had a fun trip the other day - I didn’t wear my mask in my room and no one said a word - I took my meal in the diner and spent a couple hours there chatting with some other passengers (socially distanced everyone at separate tables) and had a couple drinks.



Just curious - which train were you on?


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## lordsigma (Feb 13, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Just curious - which train were you on?


97. I was also fortunate enough to be in the Viewliner 2 car. I did request car #12 to try to get assigned to it. The VL2 dining car is great for socializing and is the one single nice thing about the flex dining program is the ability to lounge there after meals without getting the boot - I hope they will keep them on both the silvers when service returns to daily and hopefully they’ll return to 19/20 too. And if they reform F&B and bring back traditional dining more widely I hope they’d consider opening up the diner as a lounge space after meal times.


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## PVD (Feb 13, 2021)

They are much nicer space than the seating half of the cafe/lounge type car. The bigger (and upper) windows and better lighting help.


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## AFS1970 (Feb 13, 2021)

The no fly list could be a topic on it's own, but that would stray so far from trains as to not belong on the site at all. While I thought the creation of the do not fly list was a good idea, and it has for the most part achieved it's goal, there have been quite a few interesting stories out there about people who find themselves on the list, are never told they are on the list until they arrive at an airport, and don't know why they are on the list. There also (from what I have read) is no formal appeals process to get off the list if there has been a mistake. So there is little if any due process involved.

I have a couple of issues with Amtrak being part of this list. First would be, as someone else mentioned, it was created as part of an aviation security act, and Amtrak is not involved in aviation. I suppose there could be some sort of amendment, but one has to wonder to what end? Is there some chance that anyone could hijack a train and take it off track and into a building? The purpose of the list does not seem to jive with the mission of a railroad. Second of course would be list criteria, which is still a state secret, but if you would be added to a list of terrorists because you didn't wear a mask in public, then we have already gone too far down that slippery slope. Third, while preventing movement of terrorists is a noble effort, the primary transportation method used by people in this country is still automobiles. Adding a railroad to the no fly list does nothing to stop a road trip of epic proportions and I would say that a car bomb is a much more prevalent threat than a train bomb, which I have never even heard of.

Now can Amtrak come up with reasonable mask rules, sure if they want to. Just like the restaurant rules that recognize you can't easily eat with a mask on and have adapted. Although I find that adaptation to be unscientific no matter which side of the mask debate you come down on, it is still an adaptation made for a specific purpose. Amtrak could do the same if they wanted to. I suspect that whoever at DOT wrote the rule for trains, may never have been on one, and may not know there are private rooms. This is an area where passenger advocates could get involved in advising the railroad.


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## IndyLions (Feb 13, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> 97. I was also fortunate enough to be in the Viewliner 2 car. I did request car #12 to try to get assigned to it. The VL2 dining car is great for socializing and is the one single nice thing about the flex dining program is the ability to lounge there after meals without getting the boot - I hope they will keep them on both the silvers when service returns to daily and hopefully they’ll return to 19/20 too. And if they reform F&B and bring back traditional dining more widely I hope they’d consider opening up the diner as a lounge space after meal times.



Good to hear. My wife & I will be on 97 & 98 late next month. We’ll probably spend nearly all of our time in the room, but spending some time in the Diner / Lounge will be good at less busy times.

We got the 12 sleeper on the way back, but it is currently full on the way down. I’ll keep calling and hopefully there will be a cancellation at some point...


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## IndyLions (Feb 13, 2021)

PVD said:


> They are much nicer space than the seating half of the cafe/lounge type car. The bigger (and upper) windows and better lighting help.


...as well as the fact the cars are only a year or two old!


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 13, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> ...as well as the fact the cars are only a year or two old!


The designers of those cars were definitely thinking about us passengers!

Now all that Amtrak needs to do is to use them as they were intended for...

Bring back the yummy meals... scenery is already included!


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 13, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> The designers of those cars were definitely thinking about us passengers!
> 
> Now all that Amtrak needs to do is to use them as they were intended for...
> 
> ...


OMG! Did you notice the fresh flowers at the table?


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## Sidney (Feb 13, 2021)

Such a waste of those dining cars on the Eastern trains. Hopefully May 22 is the date full service dining returns on the Western trains. That's the date I booked a long trip. I am hoping. As far as the Eastern trains go,do you think we are stuck with "flexible dining" forever?


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## railiner (Feb 13, 2021)

AFS1970 said:


> The no fly list could be a topic on it's own, but that would stray so far from trains as to not belong on the site at all. While I thought the creation of the do not fly list was a good idea, and it has for the most part achieved it's goal, there have been quite a few interesting stories out there about people who find themselves on the list, are never told they are on the list until they arrive at an airport, and don't know why they are on the list. There also (from what I have read) is no formal appeals process to get off the list if there has been a mistake. So there is little if any due process involved.


Sorry to respond to this off topic, but there indeed is a process, as it happened to me, account I have a very common name.
Here it is...




__





DHS Traveler Redress Inquiry Program | Transportation Security Administration


The DHS Traveler Redress Inquiry Program can provide resolution to travelers with difficulties getting through security and inspection at airport checkpoints, train stations and when crossing U.S. borders. Learn more and apply for DHS TRIP to resolve travel-related issues if:




www.tsa.gov


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 13, 2021)

Sidney said:


> Such a waste of those dining cars on the Eastern trains. Hopefully May 22 is the date full service dining returns on the Western trains. That's the date I booked a long trip. I am hoping. As far as the Eastern trains go,do you think we are stuck with "flexible dining" forever?


Actually, no I don't... due to its almost universal unpopularity and the endless criticisms and disappoints expressed... and perhaps congressional mandate to make improvements / more funding. There are several predictions I would make.

Prediction I - a revamping of food inclusion... of some sort.

Prediction II - a modification of the pre-pared meals with fresher food and higher quality.

Prediction III - expanded cafe service with sleeping car passengers being able to order from the full menu or pre-set menu.

Prediction IV - return to a modified full service dining. 

Prediction V - total exclusion of food service for sleeper passengers... as is the policy on most European trains. I do predict this is highly likely and that Amtrak will offer food for sale on longer distance trains.

No! I don't know what the future holds! But this forum is a great place to weigh in on the dining situation... based upon what you know, who you've talked to, and your gut instincts.

So, what do you think??? Certainly plenty of speculation / factual info / probability-speculation, etc etc etc:  



https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R45942/7



Yes... this was published 8 years ago... but issues haven't changed: 



https://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001.pdf











State rules out food service restoration on Amtrak trains


Don't look for the cafe car to reopen anytime soon on Amtrak trains originating and...




www.timesunion.com


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## lordsigma (Feb 13, 2021)

Sidney said:


> Such a waste of those dining cars on the Eastern trains. Hopefully May 22 is the date full service dining returns on the Western trains. That's the date I booked a long trip. I am hoping. As far as the Eastern trains go,do you think we are stuck with "flexible dining" forever?


I think the future is the return of traditional dining car/lounge service in the west and a single food service car in the East that would prepare meals for all and have lounge seating exclusively for sleeper passengers. I think people could accept it if they, as part of it, revamped the sleeper meals into something more like what they did with the cross country cafe concept.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 13, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> I think people could accept it if they, as part of it, revamped the sleeper meals into something more like what they did with the cross



The original CCC concept was very good imho. The actual table service doesn’t need to return - but the chef does!


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## lordsigma (Feb 13, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The original CCC concept was very good imho. The actual table service doesn’t need to return - but the chef does!


I think if instead of two food service cars you had a food service car with a staff of 2 or 3 you could have such a thing with much better food.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 13, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> I think if instead of two food service cars you had a food service car with a staff of 2 or 3 you could have such a thing with much better food.



Exactly - rather than paying 2 LSA’s pay 1 LSA and 1 chef.


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## pennyk (Feb 13, 2021)

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep your comments in this thread on the topic of mask wearing on Amtrak. Comments about dining or food service should be made in one of the many threads on that topic. Thank you.


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## me_little_me (Feb 13, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> I know I’m often “slow on the uptake” - but did you mean Klinger?


Yes, Klinger. Get those young'uns mixed up at my age.


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## Ferroequinologist (Feb 14, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> So long as you wear a mask while boarding and in public areas you're probably okay but if you get sloppy the staff will be obliged to remind you and if you refuse to comply they will be expected to remove you when practical to do so.
> 
> 
> Closing the door/curtain may not be enough to ensure complete privacy. I've seen more than I cared to because some passengers did not consider placement of wall mirrors and such. It's possible this rule will be further clarified at some point to exclude private rooms with closed doors but I doubt that is any sort of priority right now.



I don't understand. How can anyone see in a room with closed door and curtains?


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## Ferroequinologist (Feb 14, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Enforcement is impossible if you're in your compartment with curtains drawn. Just keep a mask ready in case they knock. I doubt Amtrak is going to remove the curtains (especially in VI roomettes) and and have SCAs monitor passengers.



Maybe the new Admin in Washington will have cameras installed.


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## Exvalley (Feb 14, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I don't understand. How can anyone see in a room with closed door and curtains?


They can certainly see in during station stops unless you want those curtains closed to - which kind of defeats the purpose of train travel.


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## toddinde (Feb 14, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> They can certainly see in during station stops unless you want those curtains closed to - which kind of defeats the purpose of train travel.


C mon. Nobody is going to do that.


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## toddinde (Feb 14, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Actually, no I don't... due to its almost universal unpopularity and the endless criticisms and disappoints expressed... and perhaps congressional mandate to make improvements / more funding. There are several predictions I would make.
> 
> Prediction I - a revamping of food inclusion... of some sort.
> 
> ...


You, my friend, have made the most likely prediction I’ve seen. How do we know this is likely? Because it makes sense and will be the most cost effective. This Amtrak management seems to get it.


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## roadman3313 (Feb 14, 2021)

I can say on the train right now no one is saying to keep the mask on in the room. Most announcements say the only exception to remove is when actively eating and drinking but they don't mention the room. When I called to change my ticket yesterday I was told a mask was required except within the room and when actively eating. The current conductor made an announcement saying inside the room was an exception. We actually don't have a car attendant anymore as they went out sick but there has been no announcement within the car itself about the policy. 

This appears to be one of those situations where there will be an inconsistent application of the policy/rule/order/law which I would believe is expected. Not to be OT, but just for comparison, it is a similar situation with the dining as this train has full sit down service in the dining car where the brought the food unwrapped. Last train I was on it came in a paper bag. 

Just wanted to add a current experience for context. Ill be on four other routes (two with sleepers) in the coming days so we will see if the experience varies.


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## Sidney (Feb 14, 2021)

A little absurd? Who is going to wear a mask in your private compartment? This is going to extremes.


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## Mailliw (Feb 14, 2021)

I could see that. Hopefully when they rem


lordsigma said:


> I think the future is the return of traditional dining car/lounge service in the west and a single food service car in the East that would prepare meals for all and have lounge seating exclusively for sleeper passengers. I think people could accept it if they, as part of it, revamped the sleeper meals into something more like what they did with the cross country cafe concept.


I could see that; the VII diners would just need to be modified to have a takeout window at one end for coach passengers and ideally convert some of the cafe booths to proper loung seating. Or just have an upgraded cafe car open to all with room service to the sleepers. 


Ferroequinologist said:


> Maybe the new Admin in Washington will have cameras installed.


Hmm, that would require updating the electronics in all the sleeping cars and we know that's not going to happen.


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## lordsigma (Feb 14, 2021)

roadman3313 said:


> I can say on the train right now no one is saying to keep the mask on in the room. Most announcements say the only exception to remove is when actively eating and drinking but they don't mention the room. When I called to change my ticket yesterday I was told a mask was required except within the room and when actively eating. The current conductor made an announcement saying inside the room was an exception. We actually don't have a car attendant anymore as they went out sick but there has been no announcement within the car itself about the policy.
> 
> This appears to be one of those situations where there will be an inconsistent application of the policy/rule/order/law which I would believe is expected. Not to be OT, but just for comparison, it is a similar situation with the dining as this train has full sit down service in the dining car where the brought the food unwrapped. Last train I was on it came in a paper bag.
> 
> Just wanted to add a current experience for context. Ill be on four other routes (two with sleepers) in the coming days so we will see if the experience varies.


Which train are you on?


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## roadman3313 (Feb 14, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Which train are you on?



California Zephyr. New crew just said over the PA, "Federal Law states you must have your mask on at all times or face a up to a $500 fine. Exceptions are actively eating or drinking or in your private sleeping accommodation with the door closed." Everyone has said something different. Two mentioned fines. Three mentioned sleeping compartments as being exempt. One said do it or you are off at the next grade crossing. The only consistent announcement has been it is ok to remove temporarily when actively eating and drinking. I have been wearing the mask in the room for the most part, however being from the Bay Area (in California) that is more from habit and less consciously doing it than anything else. Only one PA so far reminding people about the mask policy due to people relaxing the mask use in the sightseer lounge (without food or drink). Otherwise no real problems have been evident thus far. In the dining car most everyone I have seen has been wearing the mask until the food arrives and they have been putting it back on if the server walks up.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 14, 2021)

roadman3313 said:


> California Zephyr. New crew just said over the PA, "Federal Law states you must have your mask on at all times or face a up to a $500 fine. Exceptions are actively eating or drinking or in your private sleeping accommodation with the door closed." Everyone has said something different. Two mentioned fines. Three mentioned sleeping compartments as being exempt. One said do it or you are off at the next grade crossing. The only consistent announcement has been it is ok to remove temporarily when actively eating and drinking. I have been wearing the mask in the room for the most part, however being from the Bay Area (in California) that is more from habit and less consciously doing it than anything else. Only one PA so far reminding people about the mask policy due to people relaxing the mask use in the sightseer lounge (without food or drink). Otherwise no real problems have been evident thus far. In the dining car most everyone I have seen has been wearing the mask until the food arrives and they have been putting it back on if the server walks up.



Are many people eating in the dining car? (Vs. in their room)


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## roadman3313 (Feb 15, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Are many people eating in the dining car? (Vs. in their room)



I'd say 25% sleeper lounge/75% in the room. Of the 8 tables available I'd say about 4-5 were filled at any given time. It was pretty organized as they set your drinks out on the table ahead of time (the LSA still came to your room ahead of time to take the order and ask your preference of in room or in sleeper lounge) to designate which table was yours. To keep on the topic of mask compliance I'd say everyone overall in the "sleeper lounge" car was courteous about it and the tables were alternated and cleaned between parties. I never really felt like anyone was ever in my bubble nor myself in anyone else's. In overhearing people, those who said they wanted a breather from the mask tended to stay and eat in the room with the door closed. 

I can try to write a brief summary of the overall experience if that would be helpful in the appropriate thread.


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## disney1990 (Feb 15, 2021)

Exceptions are actively eating or drinking or in your private sleeping accommodation with the door closed


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 15, 2021)

roadman3313 said:


> I'd say 25% sleeper lounge/75% in the room.



Thanks. That’s about what I would expect right now.


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## TrackWalker (Feb 15, 2021)

All the cool kids wear them.





Amtrak Masks


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## bms (Feb 15, 2021)

One of the times I boarded No. 5 in Chicago last summer, federal police politely asked to search my bags to see if I was taking any drugs on my trip. Of course I had nothing illlegal so I let them search, but that ended my fantasy that I could be a regular guy and not attract any attention from law enforcement etc. Still, I don't see how anybody would know or care if you had a mask on in a private sleeper room.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 15, 2021)

bms said:


> One of the times I boarded No. 5 in Chicago last summer, federal police politely asked to search my bags to see if I was taking any drugs on my trip. Of course I had nothing illlegal so I let them search, but that ended my fantasy that I could be a regular guy and not attract any attention from law enforcement etc. Still, I don't see how anybody would know or care if you had a mask on in a private sleeper room.



I’ve been there as well. Taking the train is suspicious behavior you know!


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## bms (Feb 15, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve been there as well. Taking the train is suspicious behavior you know!



I knew that the federal cops profile young men who book a sleeper room on short notice. At 38 I thought I was old enough to not get profiled - I was kind of honored to get searched! Plus I travel so light with only a small Red Oxx bag, so I think sometimes I get searched just cause it's so much easier than searching the other guy who had 5 bags lol.

The guys who searched me were totally professional and polite, just doing their jobs. Just was a little disconcerting cause I worked 60 hours a week for months to earn that time off and would have rather relaxed.


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## WWW (Feb 15, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve been there as well. Taking the train is suspicious behavior you know!



Yupp - none of the stripdown nudo-scope TSA crap for rail travel - hands in the air - spreadem !
You can't just hijack a train and change the destination at random - you are limited to the tracks !
About the only comments I have received were "What's a matter sonny afraid to fly" ? The conductor
taking tickets noted my airline crew tags on my bags.

And really you can't be sure what the dogs are looking for - except for the German Shepard type
they mean real police business - big bite out of crime.


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## City of Miami (Feb 15, 2021)

I took a day trip back in October from CVS to WAS. It did not whet my appetite for more. The trains and Union Station and indeed the city itself were so abandoned that it was depressing.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 15, 2021)

WWW said:


> Yupp - none of the stripdown nudo-scope TSA crap for rail travel - hands in the air - spreadem !



I’ve never had an issue with TSA. While Amtrak police have been professional, I would rather go through standard tsa screening then be singled out because I’m a male traveling alone. 

I don’t like being questioned on why I’m traveling in my own country.


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## WWW (Feb 15, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve never had an issue with TSA. While Amtrak police have been professional, I would rather go through standard tsa screening then be singled out because I’m a male traveling alone.
> 
> I don’t like being questioned on why I’m traveling in my own country.



There is an airline with a Promo script "You are free to move about the country" - - - 
Amtrak corollary as long as you or the train stays on the tracks !

I am not so worried about travel in on on public transport as I am about the recent wave of car jackings in my city Murderopolis !


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## Night Ranger (Feb 15, 2021)

bms said:


> I knew that the federal cops profile young men who book a sleeper room on short notice. At 38 I thought I was old enough to not get profiled - I was kind of honored to get searched! Plus I travel so light with only a small Red Oxx bag, so I think sometimes I get searched just cause it's so much easier than searching the other guy who had 5 bags lol.
> 
> The guys who searched me were totally professional and polite, just doing their jobs. Just was a little disconcerting cause I worked 60 hours a week for months to earn that time off and would have rather relaxed.


Wonder if they would have been as professional and polite if you had declined to give your consent? "No sir, I'm exercising my 4th Amendment right against an unreasonable search" or something like that.


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## roadman3313 (Feb 15, 2021)

On the Lake Shore Limited now and the announcement exempted while actively eating and drinking and while in your private sleeping car accommodation with the door closed. Also stated bandanas and the like no longer count and that anyone in violation will be removed from the train. They did say they have spare masks though should someone have a non-compliant one.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 15, 2021)

Night Ranger said:


> Wonder if they would have been as professional and polite if you had declined to give your consent? "No sir, I'm exercising my 4th Amendment right against an unreasonable search" or something like that.



I tried that once. Didn’t say anything about my right I said “If you’re asking me because I have a choice, then the answer is no, I would prefer not to have strangers going through my luggage.” 

His reply -
“Well you have the right to deny a search but I have the authority to say your bag has to be run by a dog and since I don’t have a dog with me that means you’d have to wait on the platform until the dog shows up and he might not show up before the train departs”


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