# Lawmakers want Amtrak line from Atlanta to Nashville



## iliketrains (Feb 23, 2022)

It seems like these route proposals get tossed around and an eventual service never starts. Maybe this will end differently.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 23, 2022)

Here is an article that gives a little more detail - no route map unfortunately, like the one shown very briefly in the video.

Support builds for Amtrak travel as federal funds dangle


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## Steve4031 (Feb 23, 2022)

The Atlanta Nashville route would have a better potential if it was extended to Memphis or Indianapolis. The service from Bristol would connect to her northeast. Ideally that route would be extended to Knoxville, Nashville and Memphis. Imho connections to other states and parts of the country are key to success.


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## west point (Feb 23, 2022)

The first thing is TN legislators getting Georgia Pols on board with a new station in ATL. Otherwise, a nonstarter. We have discussed the problems of going to Bristol and on to the NE. Yes, Nashville does need connections towards CHI either thru Louisville or connecting to the CNO which limits schedule times.


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## danasgoodstuff (Feb 23, 2022)

ATL to Nashville is on the 2035 ConnectUS map, so presumably more likely than some others discussed here which aren't?


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## George Harris (Feb 24, 2022)

Would some of the people behind these schemes PLEASE get someone with a reasonable understanding on the limitations of speeds that the curves on these routes would require. At the very least, they should go back to some mid 1950's passenger timetables and look at the elapsed times in these schedules that existed between these various proposed service points that are being kicked around in these schemes. Then, recognize that you are not even going to be able to go that fast with current realities even if you install many miles of second mains and longer passing tracks. Now, compare this to reasonable driving times between these points. I've said it before, but I will just stick it in here as well:

When people talk about Nashville – Atlanta service, I regard this as near hallucination. The current railroad line is 287 miles of what is for the most part a very curvy and indirect route. The best ever schedule was just over 6 hours for trains that were the company’s pride so they were virtually given the railroad to run their schedule. Anything under about 8 hours given current realities would require megabucks in order to happen. To have anything that would get anywhere near driving time would require a nearly complete new alignment, plus double tracking most/all of any of the current alignment that would be used. By the time we do this we are not that far from the cost of a high speed railroad between these points. It is highly doubtful that the passenger loading would justify the cost of this sort of thing.


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## GoAmtrak (Feb 24, 2022)

Steve4031 said:


> The Atlanta Nashville route would have a better potential if it was extended to Memphis or Indianapolis. The service from Bristol would connect to her northeast. Ideally that route would be extended to Knoxville, Nashville and Memphis. Imho connections to other states and parts of the country are key to success.


I absolutely agree with you. The video was a positive surprise as state cooperation is considered in rail projects, even among Republicans.

Not being an insider, I have somewhat the impression some states lack cooperation if a railway project crosses borders. "We like to benefit, but we don't to want to pay anything." I remember the Downeaster from Massachusetts to Maine which crossed New Hampshire which wasn't interested to contribute.

I can imagine if Toledo and Detroit would be in the same state, things would go forward faster to re-connect that city pair as well. Discussions between Minnesota and Wisconsin did also occur on the question who funds how much of a second daily train between Saint Paul and Milwaukee.

I'm not sure how realistic a connection between Atlanta and Nashville is, but in minimum some politicians give it a consideration and it is also on Amtrak's 2035 plan.


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## Ziv (Feb 24, 2022)

If Georgia can get this going, a big "if", but if they can do it, then extending the line would make sense. I was thinking to St. Louis and then on to Kansas City ( ≈ 805 miles) or to Louisville and then on to either Columbus ( ≈ 640 miles) via Cincinnati or Nashville to Indianapolis ( ≈ 540 miles). I doubt they can pull off the first part but you do get to dream.
805 miles is more than 750 miles and is a bit long for a day train at 79 mph max, so maybe Atlanta/Nashville/Louisville/Cincinnati/Columbus at ≈ 640 miles would be slightly less pie in the sky'ish. A run time of around 12 hours would would give the train a nice distance to cover. But can Amtrak clean and store trains overnight in, or near, either Atlanta or Columbus? I don't think they can. Oh well. It looks good on paper! LOL!


Steve4031 said:


> The Atlanta Nashville route would have a better potential if it was extended to Memphis or Indianapolis. The service from Bristol would connect to her northeast. Ideally that route would be extended to Knoxville, Nashville and Memphis. Imho connections to other states and parts of the country are key to success.


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## west point (Feb 24, 2022)

OK here is a link to an all NC&SL timetable of !56"16 each way (time changes west of Chattanooga). Now if NS is used from CHA <> ATL is 3-1/2 hours vs 3:15 CSX. 

The Georgian - August, 1963 - Streamliner Schedules 
The New Royal Palm - March, 1951 - Streamliner Schedules
However, that is not the full picture.
The CSX route CHA - Dalton GA is only 37 miles whereas NS is approximately 65+ miles same CHA - Dalton. The CSX line from Dalton is very slow especially Marietta - ATL. NS (SOU) did some major work around the IM terminal increasing MAX allowed speeds. So best way would be CSX to Dalton and NS on to ATL probably under 6 hours? The two RRs cross at grade at Dalton but cannot remember if there is a connection going south from CSX to NS?


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## George Harris (Feb 24, 2022)

Please, people, start thinking with your headbone, not your wishbone. I would love to see these services as much as anybody, but without megabucks on alignment changes they simply will not be fast enough to be practical. It would be great to pop into Memphis Union Station, and run up to Nashville in about 3 hours or less to see the parts of the family up there, but such is not to be.

For that part of this discussion, the pre-Amtrak Memphis-Nashville day train died sometime in the early to mid 1950's and was down to one coach in its final year, and this was a train heavily promoted by the NC&StL at the time of its immediately post WW2 inception. Simply put, a 5 hour plus a little schedule was about what you could manage on the line as it existed at that time. There has been no improvement permitting higher speed since. This was close to what you could drive on pre-Interstate US 70, so it had no hope even then on speed, and now the driving time is regarded as being a little over 3 hours. Since the late 1960's even the track for its route through Jackson is gone, so you would have a route somewhat slower and having only small to middling size towns between Nashville and Memphis. Plus, over half this distance has no signals, so it would be 59 mph maximum. 

Again, Louisville to Cincinatti is slow, about 110 miles if I recall correctly, but a 3 hour run at best. Signaled, plus lots of curves, with even some street running through one of the towns in between. 

The NS line between Dalton and Atlanta is no racetrack, either. Whatever work NS has done you can bet it did not have 79 mph plus in mind.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 25, 2022)

There seems to be some fixation about comparing train time with driving time on the interstates. That may be worth thinking about, but consider that Pittsburgh to Harrisburg is 3 - 3/13 hours by driving the Turnpike, whereas the Pennsylvanian takes 5 hours 20 minutes. Yet the Pennsylvanian does a good business, and, in fact, the state of Pennsylvania is now in talks with NS and Amtrak to for a second frequency. This is a route with major mountains and curves, too.

Speed isn't everything, and the Pennsylvanian serves additional small towns along the route that have no other public transportation, as well as people who can't or won't drive. And while most of the drive might be fast on an interstate, the driving around once you get to one of the large cities can be slow and stressful.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 25, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> There seems to be some fixation about comparing train time with driving time on the interstates. That may be worth thinking about, but consider that Pittsburgh to Harrisburg us 3 - 3/13 hours by driving the Turnpike, whereas the Pennsylvanian takes 5 hours 20 minutes. Yet the Pennsylvanian does a good business, and, in fact, the state of Pennsylvania is now in talks with NS and Amtrak to for a second frequency. This is a route with major mountains and curves, too.
> 
> Speed isn't everything, and the Pennsylvanian serves additional small towns along the route that have no other public transportation, as well as people who can't or won't drive. And while most of the drive might be fast on an interstate, the driving around once you get to one of the large cities can be slow and stressful.


I agree. Brunswick ME to Boston is 3 hours 20 min on the train vs. 2 1/2 hours driving but only a lunatic would consider driving in downtown Boston. Plus you need to take out a 2nd mortgage to afford to pay for your parking there.


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## KO4WUS (Feb 25, 2022)

iliketrains said:


> It seems like these route proposals get tossed around and an eventual service never starts. Maybe this will end differently.




I hope they figure it out and get nashville a passenger train. I like amtraks twitter post diagram


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 25, 2022)

That Amtrak connects diagram if implemented means a proper station in Atlanta. Nothing much can happen until that happens.


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## dwebarts (Feb 25, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> That Amtrak connects diagram if implemented means a proper station in Atlanta. Nothing much can happen until that happens.


Atlanta's growth might make that feasible, especially with the growing number of transplants from rail-positive cities in the north and midwest.


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## rs9 (Feb 25, 2022)

In regard to car vs. train travel time, I would keep in mind all the people whose work lives now include work-from-home. If Amtrak can ever make wifi reliable, you can spend your travel day working on the train instead of taking a day off.


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## IndyLions (Feb 27, 2022)

rs9 said:


> In regard to car vs. train travel time, I would keep in mind all the people whose work lives now include work-from-home. If Amtrak can ever make wifi reliable, you can spend your travel day working on the train instead of taking a day off.


I do it all the time now. I just use my work data. My company is more than happy for me to be working while commuting/ traveling using their data plan as opposed to “windshield time” where working is dangerous.

Of course, if Amtrak wants to make their Wi-Fi better – that’ll be better for even more people.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 6, 2022)

Well the problem with Atlanta is the rail network is very condensed. Here is a zooming in of the 1952 passenger rail network in Atlanta. 

Color Codes
Green: Southern Railway
Red: Seaboard Airline
Gray: NC&STL (L&N)
Dark Blue: Georgia Railroad
Light Blue: Atlanta & West Point
Yellow: Central of Georgia
Purple: Atlantic Coastline


Here is the Atlanta Region more broadly. Of these only the Seaboard Airline west of where it crosses the NC&STL has been torn out. And a small portion of the ACL routing into the Atlanta Station is gone too. 



This is a more detailed looking of whats going on in the downtown area. That part from Inman Yard to the ACL is still active, but where they meet to the Atlanta station is gone. 



This is downtown Atlanta where the old stations were located. Everything except the Purple Line is still in place. 

Ideally the best sited place for a new station is where Union Station or Terminal Station used to be in downtown Atlanta but it will cause a major problem on the Crescent route because it now has a few mile back up move on a busy line with lots of trains jostling for space. 

So ideally this is what I would do I would reroute the Crescent onto CSX via Montgomery, and Mobile. If we kept with the current times it could actually replace the morning departure from Atlanta to Montgomery, and the evening from Montgomery to Atlanta on a corridor train. One less train for the states to fund. 

Next I would throw a section of what I call the Crescent Star into the game. It would drop down the Silver Star's route to Columbia from New York, cross over to Augusta on the NS R line (light freight traffic), onto the Georgia Railroad (CSX Light Traffic), and jump back onto NS in Atlanta to go to Birmingham, and Meridian. But here is where I would differ I would then shoot the train out over to Dallas via Jackson, and Shreveport. And again if you timed it right you could get a corridor train in for one of the Atlanta core corridors. 

Now that we have the station taken care of we can throw on a Chicago-Miami service again and now we get two potential routings. We could throw it to Macon-Savannah which is a longer time route but it can fill in the Atlanta core corridors, or we can drop straight down to Cordele and over to Waycross to Florida. Lots of options, and with that being a national network train gets Tennessee and Georgia off the hook for a corridor service on their joint corridor. 

Atlanta is very much fixable the problem is you need the political wherewithal to do it.


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## bms (Mar 6, 2022)

There are a lot of people in Atlanta and in Nashville who don't have a car. Traffic is also completely awful in that area and gas costs $4.50. If train service began between those cities, I'd be shocked if it wasn't successful, even if it was slow because of the terrain.


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## west point (Mar 6, 2022)

Seaboard: ACL even back in the 1960s ran from Stonewall on ACL that crossed under Inman yard, ACL freights turned north there to Tilford. Today CSX seldom will route freights if the NC&SL, NS(CofGA). A&WP route thru downtown is blocked. Passenger trains after passing under Inman immediately turned south on the NC&SL into Union station. 

Now the ACL line is accessed by going on the A&WP south to Stonewall CP and a full spur to the ABC (ACL) line. That is how CSX freight is now routed from Tilford to get on the Manchester ACL line. The A&WP route gives faster access to the Manchester ACL route.

Although I have not been downtown around the demolished train stations at one it appeared that a loop could be built there with a station preventing any need to backup to or from Howell CP.

Still any station in downtown ATL for Amtrak and a possible future commuter RR will require the CSX line crossing NS will need probably CSX ducking under NS. Trackwork to combine Howell to downtown ATL NS/CSX 2 each main tracks into one 4 Main track operation.


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## west point (Mar 6, 2022)

For ATL - Nashville is about 300 miles, Potential passengers would have an older car at best able to do 20 miles per gallon. = 15 gallons. Gasoline in a few months will probably be $5.00 / Gallon. = $75.00. So if fares could be around $50.00 for 1 or 2 persons then if a potential passenger can make first mile / last mile easy then you will get that passenger on Amtrak.

How many persons every day that would use this service is a great unknown. Also, the intermediate cities of Murfreesboro, Arnold, Chattanooga, Dalton, Austell or Mariettas may provide some? Then if times are correct connections to Crescent will provide a few passengers each day.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 7, 2022)

Seaboard92 said:


> I would throw a section of what I call the Crescent Star into the game. It would drop down the Silver Star's route to Columbia from New York, cross over to Augusta on the NS R line (light freight traffic), onto the Georgia Railroad (CSX Light Traffic), and jump back onto NS in Atlanta to go to Birmingham, and Meridian. But here is where I would differ I would then shoot the train out over to Dallas via Jackson, and Shreveport.


I guess you could call that train the "Crescent Star Eagle".


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## irv818 (Mar 26, 2022)

To be of any practical use, MARTA would have to have an intermodal Amtrak station, just like it has a stop inside the airport. Where would that be?


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## west point (Mar 30, 2022)

irv818 said:


> To be of any practical use, MARTA would have to have an intermodal Amtrak station, just like it has a stop inside the airport. Where would that be?


 There are several non-ideal locations. Alanta airport, East Point, Several locations east of downtown, Doraville. The only location really useable is downtown at the Union station - Terminal station with a balloon track to allow quick turn arounds for NE to north and to west trains. Example Crescent which does not go to downtown Atlanta..ouAu


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## daybeers (Mar 31, 2022)

west point said:


> For ATL - Nashville is about 300 miles, Potential passengers would have an older car at best able to do 20 miles per gallon. = 15 gallons. Gasoline in a few months will probably be $5.00 / Gallon. = $75.00. So if fares could be around $50.00 for 1 or 2 persons then if a potential passenger can make first mile / last mile easy then you will get that passenger on Amtrak.
> 
> How many persons every day that would use this service is a great unknown. Also, the intermediate cities of Murfreesboro, Arnold, Chattanooga, Dalton, Austell or Mariettas may provide some? Then if times are correct connections to Crescent will provide a few passengers each day.


I'll never understand how people compare modes with the cost of driving including only fuel. Maintenance, parking, tolls, insurance, registration, crashes, all that adds up and contributes to a higher per mile cost. No way a 300 mile trip costs $75 with gas at $5/gallon.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 31, 2022)

daybeers said:


> I'll never understand how people compare modes with the cost of driving including only fuel. Maintenance, parking, tolls, insurance, registration, crashes, all that adds up and contributes to a higher per mile cost. No way a 300 mile trip costs $75 with gas at $5/gallon.


The current IRS standard mileage rate for business use of a vehicle is 58.5 cents per mile. Thus, they estimate that a 300 mile auto trip costs about $175.50. That doesn't include tolls and parking.


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## WICT106 (Mar 31, 2022)

daybeers said:


> I'll never understand how people compare modes with the cost of driving including only fuel. Maintenance, parking, tolls, insurance, registration, crashes, all that adds up and contributes to a higher per mile cost. No way a 300 mile trip costs $75 with gas at $5/gallon.


 Many people do this without even thinking about it -- they only compare out-of-pocket expenses ( like gas ), as the other expenses are really, really, easy to ignore.


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## Willbridge (Apr 1, 2022)

WICT106 said:


> Many people do this without even thinking about it -- they only compare out-of-pocket expenses (like gas), as the other expenses are really, really, easy to ignore.


Absolutely. The best promotion on the PDX<>SEA Pool line in the late '50's and early '60's was the headline "Costs less than a tank of gas." Long lines of day coaches were filled with that message.

A Denver church near the Federal Blvd. interchange on transcontinental I-70 found that it had a calling to rescue people who just hopped into their pre-owned auto to drive from Chicago or St. Louis to California. They needed help with food and car repairs. A couple of auto shops did work at a discount for people who were screened and aided by the church deacons. It was a surprise for these motorists to be confronted with reality.


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## NES28 (Apr 1, 2022)

west point said:


> There are several non-ideal locations. Alanta airport, East Point, Several locations east of downtown, Doraville. The only location really useable is downtown at the Union station - Terminal station with a balloon track to allow quick turn arounds for NE to north and to west trains. Example Crescent which does not go to downtown Atlanta..ouAu


The FRA SE and Midwest Regional Plans are quite interesting. They propose Atlanta being a stop on a Florida to Chicago high-speed which would attract enough riders for hourly service. Atlanta should have both an Airport and a downtown station, as well as one in Cobb County, all on dedicated passenger tracks. The Crescent should be on the high-speed line to Charlotte and a new high-speed line to Birmingham or Montgomery and go through the downtown station.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 1, 2022)

I know I've mentioned this before, but several years ago we had a poster here (I think who was a newbie and only made like one post iirc, too lazy to search this morning) who claimed/purported that they were a railroad employee for one of the railroads on an Atlanta-Tennessee route and they had been told that Amtrak would be using their tracks - of course, they never responded to queries or came back as far as I could tell, but I wonder if there has been some negotiation on something already (or it was purely gossip mongering).


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## crescent2 (Apr 3, 2022)

I live in Georgia and would absolutely love such a rail line. Even if the trip took significantly longer than driving I'd much rather use the train to get to Chattanooga or Nashville. And it does seem a bit absurd that a city the size of Atlanta is only served by one long distance train. However, this seems like pie in the sky to me. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic but I doubt it.

Unless they've recently changed, Georgia's politicians have never been that interested in expanding passenger rail service, and finding a good location for a new station in Atlanta is a huge problem. Plus the geography in north Georgia is hilly and a higher speed line would be very, very costly. And where is all this magic money supposed to come from? Our nation is already hopelessly in debt.

I just don't see it happening during my lifetime. Amtrak has never reinstated the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans. I think we'll be lucky to keep all the trains we currently have, other than those in the NE Corridor.


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## irv818 (Apr 5, 2022)

daybeers said:


> I'll never understand how people compare modes with the cost of driving including only fuel. Maintenance, parking, tolls, insurance, registration, crashes, all that adds up and contributes to a higher per mile cost. No way a 300 mile trip costs $75 with gas at $5/gallon.


Taxi service to the nearest Amtrak station is currently $110 one-way.
If I drive, it costs me $40 worth of gas. 
I guess it is impossible to get people to understand that not everyone can actually use Amtrak except in the same way we might use a cruise ship - for a pleasure trip.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 5, 2022)

irv818 said:


> Taxi service to the nearest Amtrak station is currently $110 one-way. If I drive, it costs me $40 worth of gas. I guess it is impossible to get people to understand that not everyone can actually use Amtrak except in the same way we might use a cruise ship - for a pleasure trip.


Where I live it costs $45 to reach the nearest Amtrak station by taxi. Luckily I saved that $45 by spending $25,000 to purchase a car along with another $25,000 to purchase a car's life worth of gasoline, maintenance, insurance, & infractions. Now I'm ($49,955) ahead of the game thanks to my savvy financial tactics.


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## MisterUptempo (Apr 5, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Where I live it costs $45 to reach the nearest Amtrak station by taxi. Luckily I saved that $45 by spending $25,000 to purchase a car along with another $25,000 to purchase a car's life worth of gasoline, maintenance, insurance, & infractions. Now I'm ($49,955) ahead of the game thanks to my savvy financial tactics.



This a good explainer video when discussing the real cost of driving-


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## daybeers (Apr 6, 2022)

MisterUptempo said:


> This a good explainer video when discussing the real cost of driving-



CityNerd is great!!!


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## Charles785 (Apr 9, 2022)

And speaking about Nashville, I was reminded about Nashville today when I heard that Dean Martin song, _Little Ole Wine Drinker Me. _ You see, he was sitting in a bar in Chicago with a broken heart and a woman on his mind. He came to Chicago from Nashville where his baby had left for Florida on a train

Of course I was wondering what train that could have been, and what would have been the last year that his baby could have left Nashville on a train bound for Florida.


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## railiner (Apr 9, 2022)

Charles785 said:


> And speaking about Nashville, I was reminded about Nashville today when I heard that Dean Martin song, _Little Ole Wine Drinker Me._ You see, he was sitting in a bar in Chicago with a broken heart and a woman on his mind. He came to Chicago from Nashville where his baby had left for Florida on a train
> 
> Of course I was wondering what train that could have been, and what would have been the last year that his baby could have left Nashville on a train bound for Florida.


The one on the left side of the page...1979



The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## Charles785 (Apr 9, 2022)

Thank you, Railiner

I guess that's also the same time we lost the Lone Star. 

Some kind of a route from Chicago to Florida seems to make a whole lot of sense. Of course that Floridian route provided some high population locales including Indianapolis that remains woefully underserved, and of course Louisville and Nashville.


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## Tlcooper93 (Apr 18, 2022)

irv818 said:


> Taxi service to the nearest Amtrak station is currently $110 one-way.
> If I drive, it costs me $40 worth of gas.
> I guess it is impossible to get people to understand that not everyone can actually use Amtrak except in the same way we might use a cruise ship - for a pleasure trip.


Actually, I think most on this forum are very aware of the fact that this country’s transportation system vastly favors cars to all else. Even the current gas situation doubled won’t change that.

For all people outside of the NEC, parts of California and a few select metro areas, trains make absolutely no sense, and one has to go out of their way to make it feasible. 

We all want to change that, but it will certainly mean utterly reworking this country and it’s policies.


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## west point (Dec 11, 2022)

Nashville to Florida had another way which required a connection. The NC&SL at one time had 2 trains Nashville - ATL. Then passengers connected to ACL at Union station or could take a short ride to Terminal station and ride SOU RR trains to Florida. 2 or more by way of Waycross and one by Brunswick and ACL track rights to JAX.

Now about Chattanooga. Drive time except from 2300 - 0500 at CHA will not be the advertized. Have to drive to Nashville at least 4 times a year and Chatttanooga is heartbreak. Traffic on I-24 of about from I - 75 to other side of Mount Eagle is crazy. I-24 at CHA was one of first built in Tn and is still only 2 lanes except some 3 lanes in downtown CHA have been added just recently in past year or so. 

Mount Eagle is a steep grade that is a brake smoker even for some autos. Do not drive left lane which has runaway ramps. Have seen 2 trucks on one ramp together. That secton of I-24 is about 60 miles and has more than once taken over 2 - 1/2 hours. Granted at least there are Tn welcome centers both ways that increased the 2 - 1/2 even more. BTW US-41 was a mistake the one time detoured on it after receiving bad traffic notice on I-24. The mountain rannge NE <> SW only has one break which has Tennessee river, I-24 and CSX ( NC&SL ) share. NS has trackage right from SOU RR days. A direct RR route over the ridge north of CHA would require a HrSR slope probably 4% or a tunnel maybe more than ~ 5 - 8 miles long.


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## jiml (Dec 12, 2022)

Excellent summary. We drive to/from Florida virtually every year and now use I-65 to avoid the very section you're describing. A couple of accidents and/or inclement weather can cost hours of driving time and it has been that way for years.



west point said:


> A direct RR route over the ridge north of CHA would require a HrSR slope probably 4% or a tunnel maybe more than ~ 5 - 8 miles long.



A 4% grade, while not a problem for a modern passenger train as shown below, would be useless for freight and unlikely to be constructed in today's reality. If a tunnel was ever under consideration it would have been built when the cost of doing so wasn't prohibitive.


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## 33Nicolas (Dec 12, 2022)

We're still waiting for the Savannah-Atlanta passenger line to go through. I can't wait to take the train in between cities than drive 4:30 to 6 hours to Atlanta.

Does anyone have any news there?


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## jimdex (Dec 13, 2022)

33Nicolas said:


> We're still waiting for the Savannah-Atlanta passenger line to go through. I can't wait to take the train in between cities than drive 4:30 to 6 hours to Atlanta.
> 
> Does anyone have any news there?


Unfortunately, I really haven't seen any evidence that Georgia is interested in funding such a train.


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## ascii42 (Dec 13, 2022)

33Nicolas said:


> We're still waiting for the Savannah-Atlanta passenger line to go through. I can't wait to take the train in between cities than drive 4:30 to 6 hours to Atlanta.
> 
> Does anyone have any news there?


As someone who lives near Macon, it would make me very happy, but...


jimdex said:


> Unfortunately, I really haven't seen any evidence that Georgia is interested in funding such a train.


...yeah.
Somehow all these legislators drive to Atlanta and apparently say "yes, this is good. This is how things should be" instead of supporting trains.

The counties from Atlanta to Macon made a submission to the Corridor Identification Program. I think that's the latest I've heard anything about it.


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## Anderson (Dec 14, 2022)

WICT106 said:


> Many people do this without even thinking about it -- they only compare out-of-pocket expenses ( like gas ), as the other expenses are really, really, easy to ignore.


It's hard for people to reasonably mentally allocate (for example) insurance and car repairs/maintenance, let alone depreciation, over their driven mileage. Gas is easy to connect the dots on. I also suspect that the IRS table is somewhat generous to avoid folks opting to go with actual mileage (since that'd be a pain to audit). But think of it like this:
-You buy a new car. Let's say that car costs $30,000. The car has an expected life of 200,000 miles (not absurd these days). So, that's 3,000,000 cents ($30k*100) over 200,000 miles, or $0.15/mile.
-You pay $1200/yr for car insurance. You drive the car 15,000 miles. That's 120,000 cents over 15,000 miles...so, $0.08/mile.

Maintenance and so on are a bit more of a crapshoot, but this adds $0.23/mile to whatever your fuel consumption is. If you're getting (say) 25-30 MPG, that's another $0.10/mile these days...but that varies quite a bit depending on where you are (it can go up close to about $0.15/mile in some places like CA). And this isn't getting into the mess that diesel has been as of late.

So we're now at $0.33/mile for a lower-range car. If you move into something more expensive, it isn't hard to double the cost of the car (as well as ding the fuel economy) with an SUV. A $60,000 car would bring the depreciation cost per mile up to $0.30, bringing this tally up to $0.48-0.50/mile...which is close enough to that $0.585/mile that the IRS has used for most folks not to quibble.



Charles785 said:


> Thank you, Railiner
> 
> I guess that's also the same time we lost the Lone Star.
> 
> Some kind of a route from Chicago to Florida seems to make a whole lot of sense. Of course that Floridian route provided some high population locales including Indianapolis that remains woefully underserved, and of course Louisville and Nashville.


The Carter cuts. There are a few things to blame for them, but Amtrak's losses in the late 1970s were _massive_. Like, I think operating losses were creeping up on $1bn/yr in the late 70s. There were a few reasons for this, but one of the biggest was that Amtrak was short of equipment (the Superliners hadn't been delivered yet, and there was only so much equipment from the pre-Amtrak operations that Amtrak really wanted...some of it was a mess). A metric of X passenger-miles per train-mile was used as the main measuring stick at the time (IIRC it was something like 200), but some of the trains that were cut never had enough equipment to really let them make that bar despite frequently selling out on some segments.


ascii42 said:


> As someone who lives near Macon, it would make me very happy, but...
> 
> ...yeah.
> Somehow all these legislators drive to Atlanta and apparently say "yes, this is good. This is how things should be" instead of supporting trains.
> ...


I'm going to be interested to see what happens with some of these county/city-induced routes. If there's a way they don't have to fork over an absurd amount of money to operate the trains, it seems possible that we might see one or two come together if the Feds basically pay for the startup capex. But I'll also agree that it's a bit of a long shot.


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## jis (Dec 14, 2022)

Anderson said:


> I'm going to be interested to see what happens with some of these county/city-induced routes. If there's a way they don't have to fork over an absurd amount of money to operate the trains, it seems possible that we might see one or two come together if the Feds basically pay for the startup capex. But I'll also agree that it's a bit of a long shot.


Under the _Infrastructure Bill _the Frds will pay for operations for a few years in progressively reducing proportions.


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## Anderson (Dec 14, 2022)

jis said:


> Under the _Infrastructure Bill _the Frds will pay for operations for a few years in progressively reducing proportions.


I feel like this could be useful - though if ridership is lousy, it might not help, if you can patch together operational costs for the first 2-3 years you _might_ be able to get some of these states "stuck" with a train or two.

[The snarl is going to be what happens if the state refuses to step in and there's a lot of capex already out the door.]


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## jis (Dec 14, 2022)

Anderson said:


> I feel like this could be useful - though if ridership is lousy, it might not help, if you can patch together operational costs for the first 2-3 years you _might_ be able to get some of these states "stuck" with a train or two.
> 
> [The snarl is going to be what happens if the state refuses to step in and there's a lot of capex already out the door.]


I have not looked at it closely, but it is possible that there is a state commitment for some period sitting in there somewhere too.

Incidentally SunRail was started using a similar method between the State DOT and CFRCC. In the near future the entire responsibility for SunRail will be transferred from FDOT to CFRCC including all ongoing FTA and other funding streams. CFRCC apparently is planning to contract out the management of SunRail to a new subsidiary of Lynx, and they will continue with the existing operation (Alstom), track and signal maintenance (Wabtec and Herzog??) and equipment heavy maintenance (Amtrak) contracts as is. Something similar will need to be built into each state sponsored service relative to Federal funding timeline.


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## George Harris (Dec 16, 2022)

west point said:


> Nashville to Florida had another way which required a connection. The NC&SL at one time had 2 trains Nashville - ATL. Then passengers connected to ACL at Union station or could take a short ride to Terminal station and ride SOU RR trains to Florida. 2 or more by way of Waycross and one by Brunswick and ACL track rights to JAX.
> . . . .
> 
> Mount Eagle is a steep grade that is a brake smoker even for some autos. Do not drive left lane which has runaway ramps. Have seen 2 trucks on one ramp together. That secton of I-24 is about 60 miles and has more than once taken over 2 - 1/2 hours. Granted at least there are Tn welcome centers both ways that increased the 2 - 1/2 even more. BTW US-41 was a mistake the one time detoured on it after receiving bad traffic notice on I-24. The mountain rannge NE <> SW only has one break which has Tennessee river, I-24 and CSX ( NC&SL ) share. NS has trackage right from SOU RR days. A direct RR route over the ridge north of CHA would require a HrSR slope probably 4% or a tunnel maybe more than ~ 5 - 8 miles long.


There were three trains between Nashville and Atlanta up until at least the early 1960's, and one lasted until Amtrak. Up until its demise in the early 1950's there was also the every third day Dixie Flagler, Chicago to Florida.

Now, back to Monteagle, and yes, it is Monteagle, one word, not Mount Eagle. Quite a few years ago I played with a routing on this line on USGS topo maps but they have long since disappeared in multiple moves. However, the lengths and grades mentioned here did not ring any bells in my memory, so I did some looking on Google maps and others that have topo. Firstly, the idea of climbing up to Monteagle with a HSR is simply a non-starter. Yes, there was a railroad through there once, but it was a very steep branch out of Cowan TN. 

Monteagle itself is per Wiki at an elevation of 1926 feet. A tunnel with a length of around 3.5 miles with a north end elevation of about 1100 feet and a south end elevation of about 1010 feet could pass this altogether. This is setting it at a grade of 0.5%. The south portal would be into the same valley followed by I-24 all the way to its mouth near the Tennessee River. By following the west side of the valley wall with cuts and fills and possibly a few short tunnels, this could be done with a grade not exceeding 1.1%. How much earthwork and tunnel work would depend upon the desired speed. Without getting too far down in the weeds, I think a 100+ mph alignment would be achievable, and a 60 to 80 mph alignment relatively easy. 

After getting to the bottom of the hill and crossing the Tennessee River, you could either more or less follow the alignment of I-24 and the existing railroad across Racoon Mountain, which I believe to have about a 1.4 % grade on the railroad. Again, probably several short tunnels and quite a bit of earthwork. Alternatively, you could stay level following the Tennessee River with a couple of long tunnels to keep it relatively straight.


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## west point (Dec 17, 2022)

do not forget that the Nashville - CHA route also goes thru Alabama as well. About 24 miles. The town of Stevenson, Al is where the line turns toward Nashville. It may have been some trains stop there as Setevenson was where SOU RR's track rights on the NC&SL ended and SOU used all its own trackage to Memphis. Applies to today by NS.

It would be a hoot if Gov Ivey got involved. The RR station is still there as a museum. Have no idea if station still has helper crews kept there for climb to CHA or to Mounteagle.


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