# Amtrak FY22 Grant Request



## jis (Apr 29, 2021)

Amtrak General and Legislative Annual Report & Fiscal Year 22 Grant Request (PDF)


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## Cal (Apr 29, 2021)

"With the Amfleet II refurbishment now complete, Superliner and Viewliner I interiors will receive new cushions and upholstery coverings, carpets, curtains, and light coverings and deep cleaning in coaches, sleeping cars and dining cars."

" Superliners. While Amtrak is developing plans for replacing Superliner equipment, acquisition of replacements is beyond the five-year scope of this plan."

"We need Congress to provide Amtrak with the tools necessary to enforce our statutory right to preference. "

I see these as some good signs.


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## Cal (Apr 29, 2021)

On page 32 which notes the grants they wish for each project, along with other things, shows Superliner I and II overhauls. Does this mean they might be changed to match the interior of the VIIs or...


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> On page 32 which notes the grants they wish for each project, along with other things, shows Superliner I and II overhauls. Does this mean they might be changed to match the interior of the VIIs or...


Nope, this wouldnt work,not enough Headroom and No Windows in the Coffins! 

I'd like to see some of the Sleepers be turned into All Bedroom Cars like the Auto Train has for the 2 Night LD Trains( more Revenue), and the Sightseer Lounges refurbished and remodeled since they plan on keeping them off three of the LD Trains( CONO,TE,CAP)when Daily Service Returns!


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Nope, this wouldnt work,not enough Headroom and No Windows in the Coffins!
> 
> I'd like to see some of the Sleepers be turned into All Bedroom Cars like the Auto Train has for the 2 Night LD Trains( more Revenue), and the Sightseer Lounges refurbished and remodeled since they plan on keeping them off three of the LD Trains( CONO,TE,CAP)when Daily Service Returns!


I was talking about like the red seats, wood finishes, new doors, the new tray table, etc. Not the windows and sink. 

I don't know how an all bedroom car would do on other LD trains, I think the current layout is fine. SSL's refurbished? YES


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> I was talking about like the red seats, wood finishes, new doors, the new tray table, etc. Not the windows and sink.
> 
> I don't know how an all bedroom car would do on other LD trains, I think the current layout is fine. SSL's refurbished? YES


I was suggesting that Amtrak look @ a Premium Service for its 2 Night LD Trains, similar to what VIA did on the Canadian.

Bedrooms would appeal more to those that could afford it than Roomettes.( but not for $10,000 like the Rocky Mountsineer or the Premium Service on the Canadian!)


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I was suggesting that Amtrak look @ a Premium Service for its 2 Night LD Trains, similar to what VIA did on the Canadian.
> 
> Bedrooms would appeal more to those that could afford it than Roomettes.( but not for $10,000 like the Rocky Mountsineer or the Premium Service on the Canadian!)


 Well they will have to do a LOT of work for that!


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> Well they will have to do a LOT of work for that!


Beech Grove rehabbed the SLIs very nicely for not alot of $$ and quickly!

They do good work if Management will let them!


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## JermyZP (Apr 30, 2021)

I hope that they replace the pull out table to a more sturdy one and putting more outlets inside the rooms. Does this mean that they might remove or change the upstairs sightseer lounge wet bar?


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2021)

JermyZP said:


> I hope that they replace the pull out table to a more sturdy one and putting more outlets inside the rooms. Does this mean that they might remove or change the upstairs sightseer lounge wet bar?


I want the interior to be the same as the VII's in terms of power plugs, lighting, tray table, and finishes!


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 30, 2021)

JermyZP said:


> I hope that they replace the pull out table to a more sturdy one and putting more outlets inside the rooms. Does this mean that they might remove or change the upstairs sightseer lounge wet bar?


You'll be lucky if your Train has a Sightseer Lounge!!( as of now the Texas Eagle,CONO and Cap Ltd. wont!)


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## PaTrainFan (Apr 30, 2021)

Be realistic. Amtrak is not going to do overhauls; these are cosmetic changes, just as they did with the Amfleets.


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## railiner (Apr 30, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Be realistic. Amtrak is not going to do overhauls; these are cosmetic changes, just as they did with the Amfleets.


That's what I was thinking...reupholster and recover the seats, replace carpets, change to LED lighting, improve faucets in sinks, etc....


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## cocojacoby (Apr 30, 2021)

This Superliner refresh will be cosmetic but it will only be for the short term. A major rebuild might be on the horizon if the Superliners are found structurally fit.

Also, the whole idea for going with a modular design is the ability to swap out old modules for new ones when rebuild time comes. If the Superliners are found to be structurally sound Amtrak will "just" need to swap out modules to create a brand new passenger environment. Same with the Viewliner I. Mechanicals of course are a different story that will need to be addressed separately.

I would also love to see some more substantial changes to the Superliners like adding Sightseer upper dome windows to the bedrooms to make the space and upper bunks truly transformational. I also have a tread about putting two Accessible Bedrooms in the Sightseer Lounges (replacing lower lounge) to better satisfy ADA requirements (with waiver?) by allowing much better wheelchair access to the Diner and Lounge. This would also allow the Sightseer Lounges to generate additional room revenue and just about guarantees that every major LD train will retain them. Also it will generate additional room revenue since H rooms in present Superliner Sleepers can be converted into additional family rooms or large double bedrooms.

Just thinking outside the body shell I guess.


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## jis (Apr 30, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Also, the whole idea for going with a modular design is the ability to swap out old modules for new ones when rebuild time comes. If the Superliners are found to be structurally sound Amtrak will "just" need to swap out modules to create a brand new passenger environment. Same with the Viewliner I. Mechanicals of course are a different story that will need to be addressed separately.


Whatever makes you imagine that the Superliners have a modular design like the Viewliners?


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## me_little_me (Apr 30, 2021)

jis said:


> Whatever makes you imagine that the Superliners have a modular design like the Viewliners?


I didn't read cocojacoby's comment indicating that SL design is currently modular but that "going with a modular design" [now] would help in future refurbs.

However, let's wait to see exactly what he meant.


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## jis (Apr 30, 2021)

Which brings up an issue that has intrigued me. Has anyone ever really changed out a module in any of the Viewliners ever? Has it really proved to be easier to modfy the layout inside when compared to a normal tear down and rebuild? Or is it all theoretical so far?


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## cocojacoby (Apr 30, 2021)

jis said:


> Whatever makes you imagine that the Superliners have a modular design like the Viewliners?



I was lucky enough to visit the Bombardier facility in Vermont when the IIs were being built. I remember during the tour that the guide person mentioned that they came up with a way to bring the modules in through the ends of the car instead of through the plug door. 

FYI: Amtrak Superliner I Remanufacture


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## jis (Apr 30, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> I was lucky enough to visit the Bombardier facility in Vermont when the IIs were being built. I remember during the tour that the guide person mentioned that they came up with a way to bring the modules in through the ends of the car instead of through the plug door.
> 
> FYI: Amtrak Superliner I Remanufacture


All car interiors are assembled from modules of stuff. The question is how complete are the modules. Is the entire toilet a module or is it built from multiple modules in place. For the Super I toilet replacements the toilets were actually built in place from three modlues as I seem to recall, and they were not inserted through the end of the car but through the door.

How would they insert modules for the lower floor through the ends? There is no clear path from the ends to the lower floor.

I agree that it is good glossy that you point to but you do realize that most of it did not happen to Superliner Is. They just got a cosmetic refurbishment with faux wood paneling and all that. The electrical and plumbing (except for the at speed disposal system) was not touched. There may have been a more elaborate project planned. But it was not funded and it did not happen. We lived through it.  Somewhere in this AU site there is a long write-up by @AlanB about it, that I cannot find right now.


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## Mailliw (Apr 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> I was talking about like the red seats, wood finishes, new doors, the new tray table, etc. Not the windows and sink.
> 
> I don't know how an all bedroom car would do on other LD trains, I think the current layout is fine. SSL's refurbished? YES


If Amtrak goes with a single-level LD fleet as expected then I think the next generation of sleepers should be a mixture of all Bedroom and all Roomette +ADA room cars. Unless of course by some miracle Amtrak decides to revive the Slumbercoach concept; that can replace roomettes.


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## TrackWalker (Apr 30, 2021)

I would be happy just with thicker blankets in the sleepers. Or at least sew two of them together with the blankets they already have in stock. 

Oh, and have them branded, too. (Mentioning for a friend.)


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## JermyZP (Apr 30, 2021)

In the grant request it also states that surfliner cars will be overhauled. I'm glad that they are planning this because those seats have stains and are starting to wear down. It will probably look like the new Venture car seats with more leg room, as shown below.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 30, 2021)

It would be interesting to see what they mean by overhaul. Doesn’t clarify if hvac issues and toilet issues could be addressed.


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2021)

JermyZP said:


> In the grant request it also states that surfliner cars will be overhauled. I'm glad that they are planning this because those seats have stains and are starting to wear down. It will probably look like the new Venture car seats with more leg room, as shown below. View attachment 22097


I would love a Surfliner overhaul! I love the look of the superliners and California cars, upgrading the interior is better than new cars for me.


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## PaTrainFan (Apr 30, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> This Superliner refresh will be cosmetic but it will only be for the short term. A major rebuild might be on the horizon if the Superliners are found structurally fit.
> 
> Also, the whole idea for going with a modular design is the ability to swap out old modules for new ones when rebuild time comes. If the Superliners are found to be structurally sound Amtrak will "just" need to swap out modules to create a brand new passenger environment. Same with the Viewliner I. Mechanicals of course are a different story that will need to be addressed separately.
> 
> ...



I very much would like for this to be the case. I am a huge fan of the Superliners, and knowing that a completely new car design and construction of bilevels is likely prohibitively expensive to Amtrak, it would be great if they can make a complete overhaul work. But, I am skeptical this can and will happen. Realistically railcars can't last forever, though VIA seems to be making a good faith effort with their Budd cars!


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 30, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> If Amtrak goes with a single-level LD fleet as expected then I think the next generation of sleepers should be a mixture of all Bedroom and all Roomette +ADA room cars.


Expected by who? Single level equipment will reduce capacity, increase cost per seat, and add more stops. I do not support that and if the clumsy ADA sledgehammer kills off dual level equipment then that is extremely unfortunate.


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Nope, this wouldnt work,not enough Headroom and No Windows in the Coffins!
> 
> I'd like to see some of the Sleepers be turned into All Bedroom Cars like the Auto Train has for the 2 Night LD Trains( more Revenue), and the Sightseer Lounges refurbished and remodeled since they plan on keeping them off three of the LD Trains( CONO,TE,CAP)when Daily Service Returns!


Superliners are poorly designed... please don't get mad at me for saying that... just try getting luggage up those narrow winding stairwells. And the temperature controls do not work... it's either too hot or too cold. The H room at the end of the corridors of toilets is smelly and disgusting if not attended to... and when folks don't close the doors after use, the slam back and forth all night long unless the H traveler goes out and shuts them. Rooms on the lower level tend to overheat.

Superliners need immediate refurbishment to meet basic needs of travelers who are paying a premium to travel in them.

Double decker passenger cars in other parts of the world are built so much better and with greater ease of use and comfort for the passengers. Why does rail car design in the USA lag so far behind???

BTW are they taking the sightseer lounge off the Texas Eagle? That's a three night and three day trip... longest in the system. What gives with Amtrak???


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## jis (Apr 30, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> BTW are they taking the sightseer lounge off the Texas Eagle? That's a three night and three day trip... longest in the system. What gives with Amtrak???


If they take the Sightseer off that will only affect 21/22 between Chicago and San Antonio. The Los Angeles section which attaches to the Sunset Limited at San Antonio gets to use the Sightseer Lounge of the Sunset Limited west of San Antonio. So one loses it only for a night and a day and a bit not three nights and three days.

Of course it would be better if the Sightseer Lounge was not taken off the single night journey trains. But as I have been alluding to elsewhere, so far Amtrak's intentions of making long distance journeys as unpleasant as they can get away with seems to be the strategy of the day while management talks out of both sides of their mouths.


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Superliners are poorly designed... please don't get mad at me for saying that... just try getting luggage up those narrow winding stairwells. And the temperature controls do not work... it's either too hot or too cold. The H room at the end of the corridors of toilets is smelly and disgusting if not attended to... and when folks don't close the doors after use, the slam back and forth all night long unless the H traveler goes out and shuts them. Rooms on the lower level tend to overheat.


Some of these are the age of the equipment. I love the Superliners, I want to see a big interior refresh to match the VII's and make them more modernized.


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## JermyZP (Apr 30, 2021)

Do you think that if the grant get approved that they would bring back old services like morning coffee & juice to sleepers and a bar attendant at the bar in sightseer lounge?


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2021)

jis said:


> If they take the Sightseer off that will only affect 21/22 between Chicago and San Antonio. The Los Angeles section which attaches to the Sunset Limited at San Antonio gets to use the Sightseer Lounge of the Sunset Limited west of San Antonio. So one loses it only for a night and a day and a bit not three nights and three days.
> 
> Of course it would be better if the Sightseer Lounge was not taken off the single night journey trains. But as I have been alluding to elsewhere, so far Amtrak's intentions of making long distance journeys as unpleasant as they can get away with seems to be the strategy of the day while management talks out of both sides of their mouths.


At least you can't fault Amtrak on the one thing they do so well... consistent regression of services... there seems to be no direction goal as to what they want to do. Nor do they care... as they 'talk out of both sides of their mouths."

All that said... what's the deal with the restaurant cars... will it be like the EB split in SPK... SL has the lounge car and sleeper pax get some kind of a flex meal?


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## jis (Apr 30, 2021)

I have no idea. Maybe @Bob Dylan or @Devil's Advocate know, since it all happens in their neck of the woods.


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## cocojacoby (Apr 30, 2021)

jis said:


> How would they insert modules for the lower floor through the ends? There is no clear path from the ends to the lower floor.


 
Funny you should ask that. I used to wonder just the opposite . . . how do they get the bedroom modules up to the upper floor through the plug door on the lower floor 

I do believe you are right that a module is not necessarily one piece but a few interlocking pieces and they can be designed to pass through whatever opening they need to go through. The lower floor has plenty of access with two side doors and the big plug of course.


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Funny you should ask that. I used to wonder just the opposite . . . how do they get the bedroom modules up to the upper floor through the plug door on the lower floor
> 
> I do believe you are right that a module is not necessarily one piece but a few interlocking pieces and they can be designed to pass through whatever opening they need to go through. The lower floor has plenty of access with two side doors and the big plug of course.


You may find this interesting regarding the construction of the Superliner...





__





How They're Made






www.trainweb.org


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2021)

JermyZP said:


> Do you think that if the grant get approved that they would bring back old services like morning coffee & juice to sleepers and a bar attendant at the bar in sightseer lounge?


Well the morning coffee and juice (If you are talking about the little station) only stopped for COVID. 

Bar attendant in the SSL is much further off


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## Cal (Apr 30, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> All that said... what's the deal with the restaurant cars... will it be like the EB split in SPK... SL has the lounge car and sleeper pax get some kind of a flex meal?


Are we talking about the TE/SL? Because it doesn't matter if the SSL is there or not, there is always a diner on each train. The TE passengers north of SAS use the CCC. West of SAS they use the Sunset Diner


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## cocojacoby (Apr 30, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> You may find this interesting regarding the construction of the Superliner...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks!

Nice car illustration but really no mention of "How They're Made". I thought this was going to be a detailed report on how the modules are assembled and installed. Did I miss something?

Also one correction. The accessible room does not have a private shower.


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Nice car illustration but really no mention of "How They're Made". I thought this was going to be a detailed report on how the modules are assembled and installed. Did I miss something?
> 
> Also one correction. The accessible room does not have a private shower.


True... the site doesn't seem to be technically accurate. The superliners were designed and around 40 years ago... one thing is for sure... they are outdated and need modernization / and or totally new replacements which are beyond the 5 year plan.


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## me_little_me (Apr 30, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Superliners are poorly designed... please don't get mad at me for saying that... just try getting luggage up those narrow winding stairwells. And the temperature controls do not work... it's either too hot or too cold. The H room at the end of the corridors of toilets is smelly and disgusting if not attended to... and when folks don't close the doors after use, the slam back and forth all night long unless the H traveler goes out and shuts them. Rooms on the lower level tend to overheat.
> 
> Superliners need immediate refurbishment to meet basic needs of travelers who are paying a premium to travel in them.
> 
> ...


Most of what you mention are not really design issues - and remember, they were designed a long time ago.

They are maintenance issues:

The latches that hold the door closed should have been replaced years ago. They no longer hold because there is no spring in the metal anymore. 

The temperature controls used to work. When they stopped working, they were never fixed - and never replaced with a more modern system.

The light bulbs and fixtures could have been replaced by a customized LED fixture that would provide more light using less electricity and lasting longer. They never were. I replaced all my old and fixtures both for efficiency and to modernize my home!

The heating issues and the smell issues are the result of failures to do any real maintenance. Amtrak would not spend the money because management didn't care. During COVID, they lost a good opportunity to do some real work on the idle equipment. Now, we taxpayers are asked to pay big bucks to finally repair our trains with no guarantee that Amtrak will keep them up in good condition. Reminds me of our local schools that don't get basic maintenance until the roofs leak so bad, it destroys the interior, then they ask for big money to replace the deteriorating ones. I don't know what Amtrak is thinking but I know that air conditioners, heaters, door latches, toilet seals, etc. don't last forever and I have replaced many of these on the homes I have lived in the past 50 years. The fuel and manpower they have wasted during those 50 years powering inefficient equipment and causing bad ordered cars to be replaced or emptied en route is just sinful.


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Most of what you mention are not really design issues - and remember, they were designed a long time ago.
> 
> They are maintenance issues:
> 
> ...


Agree with everything you said regarding a shameful lack of maintenance. But the narrow and winding stairwell makes for a struggle to get luggage up and down... and necessitates grasping the rail. As seen often. And the location of the H room at the end of a bank of bathrooms can be smelling and problematic with un shut doors swaying back and forth. Those are, in my opinion, design flaws... but am interested in your opinion because many really like that design.


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## me_little_me (Apr 30, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Agree with everything you said regarding a shameful lack of maintenance. But the narrow and winding stairwell makes for a struggle to get luggage up and down... and necessitates grasping the rail. As seen often. And the location of the H room at the end of a bank of bathrooms can be smelling and problematic with un shut doors swaying back and forth. Those are, in my opinion, design flaws... but am interested in your opinion because many really like that design.


You are correct about the stairs. I have never liked them. That is, indeed, a design failure.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> Are we talking about the TE/SL? Because it doesn't matter if the SSL is there or not, there is always a diner on each train. The TE passengers north of SAS use the CCC. West of SAS they use the Sunset Diner


You are correct Sir! The bad News is Coach Pasengers on the Texas Eagle wont be able to eat and drink in the Cafe end of the CCC( Diner/Lounge), theyll have to take their stuff back to their Seats.

And without a Sightseer Lounge, Sleeping Car Pssengers will be prisoners in their Room without a Lounge except for trips to the Diner to eat!

Its 31-32 Hours between Chicago and San Antonio, that's a Long way to have to stay in your Room or Seat since there is no Lounge!


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## MARC Rider (Apr 30, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> I very much would like for this to be the case. I am a huge fan of the Superliners, and knowing that a completely new car design and construction of bilevels is likely prohibitively expensive to Amtrak, it would be great if they can make a complete overhaul work. But, I am skeptical this can and will happen. Realistically railcars can't last forever, though VIA seems to be making a good faith effort with their Budd cars!





jis said:


> If they take the Sightseer off that will only affect 21/22 between Chicago and San Antonio. The Los Angeles section which attaches to the Sunset Limited at San Antonio gets to use the Sightseer Lounge of the Sunset Limited west of San Antonio. So one loses it only for a night and a day and a bit not three nights and three days.
> 
> Of course it would be better if the Sightseer Lounge was not taken off the single night journey trains. But as I have been alluding to elsewhere, so far Amtrak's intentions of making long distance journeys as unpleasant as they can get away with seems to be the strategy of the day while management talks out of both sides of their mouths.


What kind of money are they saving by not having a Sightseer lounge? they have the equipment already, and when they don't have them, they have cafe car service in the CCC car, so I cant figure how they save money by not having a sightseer lounge.


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> You are correct Sir! The bad News is Coach Pasengers on the Texas Eagle wont be able to eat and drink in the Cafe end of the CCC( Diner/Lounge), theyll have to take their stuff back to their Seats.
> 
> And without a Sightseer Lounge, Sleeping Car Pssengers will be prisoners in their Room without a Lounge except for trips to the Diner to eat!
> 
> Its 31-32 Hours between Chicago and San Antonio, that's a Long way to have to stay in your Room or Seat since their is no Lounge!


Thank you Jim for keeping these issues alive... Amtrak needs to do better!


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 30, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> What kind of money are they saving by not having a Sightseer lounge? they have the equipment already, and when they don't have them, they have cafe car service in the CCC car, so I cant figure how they save money by not having a sightseer lounge.


Yep, another "Consultant" idea no doubt!


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2021)

So my friends, the reason for taking away the sightseer lounge is that their heads are in the clouds, and they can't see where they are going. That's exactly why they need that sightseer lounge!


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## railiner (Apr 30, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> You are correct about the stairs. I have never liked them. That is, indeed, a design failure.


What they need is sufficient room in the lower level luggage rack, so that only small overnight bags need to be carried up the stairs. Perhaps sacrificing one roomette can satisfy that need?


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## Cal (May 1, 2021)

railiner said:


> What they need is sufficient room in the lower level luggage rack, so that only small overnight bags need to be carried up the stairs. Perhaps sacrificing one roomette can satisfy that need?


I've never found a problem with the luggage rack. There has always been enough space


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## Ferroequinologist (May 1, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Superliners are poorly designed... please don't get mad at me for saying that... just try getting luggage up those narrow winding stairwells. And the temperature controls do not work... it's either too hot or too cold. The H room at the end of the corridors of toilets is smelly and disgusting if not attended to... and when folks don't close the doors after use, the slam back and forth all night long unless the H traveler goes out and shuts them. Rooms on the lower level tend to overheat.
> 
> Superliners need immediate refurbishment to meet basic needs of travelers who are paying a premium to travel in them.
> 
> ...



I totally agree. The AC works poorly, temp controls are a joke. Many design flaws., New upholstery won't be adequate. A new fleet of better designed cars is needed. Amtrak should strike while the iron is hot because future Administrations are not likely to be so sympathetic. I see it as now or never.


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## 20th Century Rider (May 1, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I totally agree. The AC works poorly, temp controls are a joke. Many design flaws., New upholstery won't be adequate. A new fleet of beer designed cars is needed. Amtrak should strike while the iron is hot because future Administrations are not likely to be so sympathetic. I see it as now or never.


Exactly!


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## railiner (May 1, 2021)

Cal said:


> I've never found a problem with the luggage rack. There has always been enough space


Then, good...there is no reason to haul large bags up the stairs...


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## toddinde (May 1, 2021)

Cal said:


> Well they will have to do a LOT of work for that!


Also, a land cruise is not the job of a taxpayer subsidized railroad. If the Rocky Mountaineer people want to cater to that group, great, but Amtrak needs to focus on affordable, pleasant, reliable transportation for regular people. VIA is a disaster outside the corridors. That’s the last thing we need.


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## JermyZP (May 1, 2021)

During the speech at Amtrak 50th anniversary event the current administration want to give 2/3 of 10 billion dollars every year to Amtrak. That around 6.5 billion and it should be more than enough for Amtrak to replace or fully rebuild the Superliners. The future of Amtrak looks bright.


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## Ziv (May 1, 2021)

We can hope, but remember that those sort of statements are negotiating ploys, not the probable final result. I have a hard time figuring out how much Amtrak spends on all of the different line items, but it seems like if they had a *dedicated* stream of funds even moderately in excess of what they have had for the past 10 years they would be able to expand frequency of the more popular routes slightly while having a steady purchase of new cars and possibly, locomotives. And it may be that even a MERE $5Bn per year would be sufficient. LOL! 
But again, I am not that knowledgeable about how the funding has been broken out over the past 10 years. I think that Amtrak direct funding from the Fed budget peaked at $1.565Bn in 2010 and then dropped below $1.4Bn in 2016 but this doesn't account for ARRA funds or other funding sources. I believe that Amtrak's direct funding then went back up to almost $2.0Bn in 2019, but again, every time I look at the numbers there are different ways of including funding from different sources.
I think the main job this year and next is to ensure that the Gateway project is funded and completed, then concentrate on first renovating the worst off but usable cars while continuing to acquire more single level cars to expand service. It would be great to get more SLII type cars, but even if the LD routes get new single level cars it would still be nice to see the oldest SLI's get retired within 8 or 10 years. Maybe the Cap Limited should go single level as the oldest SL'ers get retired, I am not sure. 
I agree that this is a time when Amtrak's future does seem to be looking as bright as it has in some time, despite the huge hit that Covid has put on their current numbers.





JermyZP said:


> During the speech at Amtrak 50th anniversary event the current administration want to give 2/3 of 10 billion dollars every year to Amtrak. That around 6.5 billion and it should be more than enough for Amtrak to replace or fully rebuild the Superliners. The future of Amtrak looks bright.


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## PaTrainFan (May 1, 2021)

toddinde said:


> Also, a land cruise is not the job of a taxpayer subsidized railroad. If the Rocky Mountaineer people want to cater to that group, great, but Amtrak needs to focus on affordable, pleasant, reliable transportation for regular people. VIA is a disaster outside the corridors. That’s the last thing we need.



Perhaps the taxpayers should not subsidize national parks, airports or essential air service. While we are at let's object to Maine taxpayers subsidizing I-5 construction in Southern California. For that matter, how much taxpayers' money supports the ports where sea cruises are launched and based? I don't know the latter, but I would not be surprised if it's more than the cruise lines pay to dock.


----------



## joelkfla (May 1, 2021)

toddinde said:


> VIA is a disaster outside the corridors.


How so?


----------



## jis (May 1, 2021)

And so the beat goes on... 

IMHO, and just IMHO mind you ....

It would be inappropriate for Amtrak itself to spend money on running a high end luxury operation when it is not fulfilling its core mission of providing effective nationwide core service at reasonable prices. It could do so in a limited case if it can show that such activities are not taking away from their core mission and that such operations are significantly reducing their need for being funded to run their core operations.

The latter is hard to do when half of your expense account is based on after the fact cost allocation based on this or that dart board algorithm. One way to do so would be to spin off a subsidiary with separate accounts from Amtrak's core dart board account, with well documented and open cross charging for any services provided to this entity by Amtrak and vice versa which are fully auditable as is the case with real corporations.

All this should not preclude Amtrak from running reasonably priced Sleeper service in its core operations which basically came in with the core operations at its inception. Unfortunately Amtrak has proved itself to be not particularly competent in running even that as a growth industry. At best runs a sputtering along maintenance industry with episodic reductions in service over time, both in terms of routes and quality, in the net. The responsibility for such lies jointly at the feet of Amtrak management, Congress and the Executive Branch of the federal and to some extent various state governments. It should be noted that various state goernments run relatively giant passenger rail operations that could be characterized as suburban regional, quite independant of Amtrak too.


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## Cal (May 1, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I totally agree. The AC works poorly, temp controls are a joke. Many design flaws.,


How are these design flaws again? Surely they worked when they were brand new, I would think this is just poor maintence over the years. 

The Superliners just need a major interior refresh and upgrade. Increasing the top speed would be good too. I don't think we necessarily need new cars for LD service.


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## Mailliw (May 1, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> How so?


It's non-existent except as a tourist oriented service running 1-3 times a week plus a handful of essential service routes like the Winnipeg-Churchill train.


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## Cal (May 2, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> It's non-existent except as a tourist oriented service running 1-3 times a week plus a handful of essential service routes like the Winnipeg-Churchill train.


It might not be the most useful, but a disaster? I wouldn't call it that


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## jis (May 2, 2021)

A good article in Railway Age summarizing what the various major aspects are in the Grant request...









Amtrak Spells it All Out for Congress - Railway Age


Amtrak has submitted its FY22 General and Legislative Annual Report and Five-Year Plan to Congress and the USDOT. The FY22 Grant Request proposes $3.88 billion for base needs and funding to offset the pandemic’s impacts on Amtrak and its state and commuter partners. In addition, Amtrak has...




www.railwayage.com


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## Cal (May 2, 2021)

" In addition to the aforementioned funding for long-distance service, authorize a separate program to improve the customer experience on long-distance trains. This program would support: *Wi-Fi service; experiential* food and beverage service; interior refreshes; and enhanced stations, among other improvements. " 


 Thoughts?


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## PaTrainFan (May 2, 2021)

Cal said:


> " In addition to the aforementioned funding for long-distance service, authorize a separate program to improve the customer experience on long-distance trains. This program would support: *Wi-Fi service; experiential* food and beverage service; interior refreshes; and enhanced stations, among other improvements. "
> 
> Thoughts?


In Amtrak's world, experiential means upgraded. This probably means supporting enhanced dining, not flex dining in its current form. But I still hold that Amtrak has no interest in the "experiential" model in the east, outside of Auto Train, which is unfortunate.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 5, 2021)

Cal said:


> How are these design flaws again? Surely they worked when they were brand new, I would think this is just poor maintence over the years.
> 
> The Superliners just need a major interior refresh and upgrade. Increasing the top speed would be good too. I don't think we necessarily need new cars for LD service.



How long do you think these cars can keep on running? Weren't they introduced around 1979? I don't think they are as well built as Budd cars of the 1940s-1950s. A refresh would be OK if they were sold to a less developed country where abor is cheap but don't you think the US could do a little better? I know that some people here just don't agree but I consider converting the original Roomette design for one person to a room for two to be a flaw. It's simply too small for two people, especially today's super sized Americans. Aside from that, however, more storage space is needed. I realize that in 1979 there were fewer electronics so the lack of enough outlets was not a flaw, rather it's become a problem. There needs to be moe storage space in the Roomettes (solved by returning them to single use), the lack of room keys is a serious drawback, door curtains never really work well etc. You're right that poor AC is due to age.


----------



## Cal (May 5, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> How long do you think these cars can keep on running? Weren't they introduced around 1979? I don't think they are as well built as Budd cars of the 1940s-1950s. A refresh would be OK if they were sold to a less developed country where abor is cheap but don't you think the US could do a little better? I know that some people here just don't agree but I consider converting the original Roomette design for one person to a room for two to be a flaw. It's simply too small for two people, especially today's super sized Americans. Aside from that, however, more storage space is needed. I realize that in 1979 there were fewer electronics so the lack of enough outlets was not a flaw, rather it's become a problem. There needs to be moe storage space in the Roomettes (solved by returning them to single use), the lack of room keys is a serious drawback, door curtains never really work well etc. You're right that poor AC is due to age.


The cars won't last forever, you're right. However the cars are still working now (and so are VIA's heritage sleepers), albeit with issues. An overhaul and refresh (maybe with some design changes for more plugs, better curtains, etc) would be fine IMHO.


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## TrackWalker (May 5, 2021)

Confidential memo to all Amtrak Beech Grove managers.
re: Superliners
Work order

Completely disassemble and reassemble using new parts.


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## me_little_me (May 6, 2021)

TrackWalker said:


> Confidential memo to all Amtrak Beech Grove managers.
> re: Superliners
> Work order
> 
> Completely disassemble and reassemble using new parts.


Reminds me of comments many many years ago about Fords ("*F*ix *O*r *R*epair *D*aily")

Open hood
Remove radiator cap
Replace everything else
Put radiator cap back on


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## jis (May 6, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Reminds me of comments many many years ago about Fords ("*F*ix *O*r *R*epair *D*aily")
> 
> Open hood
> Remove radiator cap
> ...


I have heard the same, except that it was in the days when cars had ash trays, and the comment substituted the ash tray for the radiator cap


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## Ferroequinologist (May 6, 2021)

Cal said:


> The cars won't last forever, you're right. However the cars are still working now (and so are VIA's heritage sleepers), albeit with issues. An overhaul and refresh (maybe with some design changes for more plugs, better curtains, etc) would be fine IMHO.



I think a country like the US can do better.


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## Cal (May 6, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I think a country like the US can do better.


That's fair


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## TrackWalker (May 6, 2021)

Do passenger cars have a service life limit like revenue freight cars?


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## Mailliw (May 6, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> How long do you think these cars can keep on running? Weren't they introduced around 1979? I don't think they are as well built as Budd cars of the 1940s-1950s. A refresh would be OK if they were sold to a less developed country where abor is cheap but don't you think the US could do a little better? I know that some people here just don't agree but I consider converting the original Roomette design for one person to a room for two to be a flaw. It's simply too small for two people, especially today's super sized Americans. Aside from that, however, more storage space is needed. I realize that in 1979 there were fewer electronics so the lack of enough outlets was not a flaw, rather it's become a problem. There needs to be moe storage space in the Roomettes (solved by returning them to single use), the lack of room keys is a serious drawback, door curtains never really work well etc. You're right that poor AC is due to age.


Well if you convert the Superliner roomettes to single occupancy you reduce overall capacity to 30, same as Viewliners, which eliminates their advantage over single-level equipment.


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## railiner (May 6, 2021)

TrackWalker said:


> Confidential memo to all Amtrak Beech Grove managers.
> re: Superliners
> Work order
> 
> Completely disassemble and reassemble using new parts.


Sounds good....until you look for those new parts...
You might need a foundry and a machine shop, among other 'tools'....


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## Bob Dylan (May 6, 2021)

jis said:


> I have heard the same, except that it was in the days when cars had ash trays, and the comment substituted the ash tray for the radiator cap


Ford also used to stand for (F)ound (O)n (R)oad )"( D)ead!

Fiat was (F)ix (I)t (A)gain ( T)ony!


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## Ferroequinologist (May 7, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Well if you convert the Superliner roomettes to single occupancy you reduce overall capacity to 30, same as Viewliners, which eliminates their advantage over single-level equipment.


A Slumbercoach type design could be an alternative however the real solution is a larger subsidy to allow for accommodations suitable to 21st century people in a developed country. Anyway the current Administration may not be replaced by another sympathetic to Amtrak. I see this as a once in a life time opportunity to get a new trans-con fleet. Keep the Superliners and doom long haul trains because these cars just won't last forever. Progressive rail advocacy is about high speed, not overnight sleepers.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> That's fair



I don't understand why some people here think that the US should patch up old, run down equipment as though the US is a developing country. Trillions are being spent by the Administration in Washington but Amtrak has to buy new parts for broken down old trains?


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## me_little_me (May 7, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Well if you convert the Superliner roomettes to single occupancy you reduce overall capacity to 30, same as Viewliners, which eliminates their advantage over single-level equipment.


Wrong. Bad comparison. You need to compare converting Superliner roomettes to single occupancy to converting Viewliner roomettes to single occupancy. 

Superliner - 14 roomettes - lose potentially as much as 14 capacity.
Viewliner II - 11 roomettes - lose potentially as much as 11 capacity.

You lose 3 more people max than the VLII. And you still carry a lot more because of the 5 BR, 1 Family Room, 1 Handicapped room vs 2 BR, 1 Handicapped room.


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## Mailliw (May 7, 2021)

Why would you convert Viewliner roomettes into single occupancy? They have even more space than in Superliners.


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## John Bredin (May 7, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Progressive rail advocacy is about high speed, not overnight sleepers.


And yet European nations that have built high-speed lines and got rid of sleeper trains in past decades are in the midst of bringing back overnight sleeper trains. 

There's room in progressive rail advocacy for both HSR and overnight trains. I would love to see a basic framework or core of HSR across the country, not just on the East and West Coasts. I also think a route like the Empire Builder is best run with overnight trains with sleepers, not HSR, a series of day corridors end-to-end, or buses.


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## MARC Rider (May 7, 2021)

John Bredin said:


> And yet European nations that have built high-speed lines and got rid of sleeper trains in past decades are in the midst of bringing back overnight sleeper trains.




Yes, but the other countries already have a robust system of corridor trains, so they can consider restoring the overnight sleeper service, which, even with it's restoration, is not the major market for passenger rail in their countries.

We need to set priorities with limited funds to restore passenger rail as a viable transportation mode outside of the Northeast. That means 1), corridor service first, as this is really where passenger rail is most viable, 2) maintaining the existing long-distance network, but doing whatever it takes to improves on-time performance and reliability, and accept that most of its constituency for public funding is from rural people who travel relatively short distances along the route, 3) add frequencies along existing popular long-distance corridors, then, finally, 4) funding to expand the long-distance system. Ideally, the new corridors should be designed so that their endpoints link together, thus new long-distance services can share their considerable overhead costs with the existing corridor services, plus the long distance trains will have greater connectivity with destinations no on a train's particular route.

The main public purpose for subsidizing passenger rail is to provide an alternative to driving, and perhaps flying for distances of 200 miles or less. Secondary purposes are to provide non-driving mobility to at least some rural areas and basic transcontinental mobility for people who cannot fly or drive for medical reasons. Accommodating enthusiasts like us who like to ride trains coast-to-coast is probably the lowest priority, though, of course, it is a legitimate one.


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## Cal (May 7, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I don't understand why some people here think that the US should patch up old, run down equipment as though the US is a developing country. Trillions are being spent by the Administration in Washington but Amtrak has to buy new parts for broken down old trains?


Honestly, I am being biased. I personally love the look and history of the superliner, which is why I would be fine with an overhaul and interior upgrade.


----------



## neroden (May 7, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> A Slumbercoach type design could be an alternative however the real solution is a larger subsidy to allow for accommodations suitable to 21st century people in a developed country. Anyway the current Administration may not be replaced by another sympathetic to Amtrak. I see this as a once in a life time opportunity to get a new trans-con fleet. Keep the Superliners and doom long haul trains because these cars just won't last forever. Progressive rail advocacy is about high speed, not overnight sleepers.


To the extent that current progressive rail advocacy is about overnight sleepers, everyone is looking at Austria (OBB)'s Nightjet service.


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## me_little_me (May 8, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Why would you convert Viewliner roomettes into single occupancy? They have even more space than in Superliners.


I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that it's not a fair comparison. If Amtrak converted all the Superliner roomettes to deluxe suites, then the Viewliner 2s look even better when it comes to numbers of passengers per car. It's simply an apples to oranges comparison by changing one and not the other then saying "Look! They both hold the same number of people".


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## Ferroequinologist (May 8, 2021)

neroden said:


> To the extent that current progressive rail advocacy is about overnight sleepers, everyone is looking at Austria (OBB)'s Nightjet service.



That may be but when I referred to progressive rail advocacy I was not speaking of railfan advocacy but advocacy by the progressive wing of the Democrat party now holding sway in Washington. High speed rail is seen as an energy efficient alternative. I don't think AOC is thinking of trains lumbering across the country for three days. Right now is the time to get in an order of Superliner replacements. It will be a lot harder to kill long haul once that has been accomplished but if action is delayed it may be too late when Administrations change. My concern is that while the attitude toward passenger rail has radically changed from the perspective of the White House, Amtrak management may not have changed. I get the feeling that Anderson's hostility to overnight trains lingers in the Amtrak management suites.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 8, 2021)

Cal said:


> Honestly, I am being biased. I personally love the look and history of the superliner, which is why I would be fine with an overhaul and interior upgrade.



So you'd like everyone to put up with the old equipment for sentimental reasons and lose the opportunity to get a whole new fleet? You could always ride the Superliners in Bolivia or wherever they eventually wind up. The "Chessie" ended up in Argentina where it ran until very recently. The Superliners may have an equally creative destiny.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 8, 2021)

John Bredin said:


> And yet European nations that have built high-speed lines and got rid of sleeper trains in past decades are in the midst of bringing back overnight sleeper trains.
> 
> There's room in progressive rail advocacy for both HSR and overnight trains. I would love to see a basic framework or core of HSR across the country, not just on the East and West Coasts. I also think a route like the Empire Builder is best run with overnight trains with sleepers, not HSR, a series of day corridors end-to-end, or buses.



You are right and Amtrak should take advantage of the Biden administration's favorable view of passenger rail by ordering Superliner replacements while the will to do so is there. The US does not have a committed master rail master plan like European nations. Governments in Europe come and go but passenger rail largely remains a priority (the UK being somewhat an exception, especially under Thatcher). This is not so in the US. Once Republicans are back in power the focus is almost certain to dramatically shift.


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## MARC Rider (May 8, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> the progressive wing of the Democrat party now holding sway in Washington.


Uh, the official name is the "Democratic Party," and while it's "progressive wing" is, indeed, influential, I wouldn't day that it "holds sway in Washington." 

"Amtrak Joe" wasn't part of the progressive wing, but one should remember that nearly all of his Amtrak riding was between Washington and Wilmington. Thus, I suspect that long distance trains are probably not the first thing he thinks of when he thinks or train travel.


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## MARC Rider (May 8, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> So you'd like everyone to put up with the old equipment for sentimental reasons and lose the opportunity to get a whole new fleet? You could always ride the Superliners in Bolivia or wherever they eventually wind up. The "Chessie" ended up in Argentina where it ran until very recently. The Superliners may have an equally creative destiny.


The only real reason to put a high priority on replacing the Superliners is if their mechanical condition is so bad that reliability and safety are affected. If the cars are still in good mechanical condition, then an overhaul is probably OK if there isn't enough money available to replace them. And when it does get to the point that they actually *need* to be replaced, they will come up with money for it, because the current basic long-distance service has sufficient bipartisan support in Congress.


----------



## jis (May 8, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Uh, the official name is the "Democratic Party," and while it's "progressive wing" is, indeed, influential, I wouldn't day that it "holds sway in Washington."
> 
> "Amtrak Joe" wasn't part of the progressive wing, but one should remember that nearly all of his Amtrak riding was between Washington and Wilmington. Thus, I suspect that long distance trains are probably not the first thing he thinks of when he thinks or train travel.


Yeah, I do not consider the portion of the Democratic Party holding sway these days, exactly the "progressive wing" although they have picked up a few of the positions espoused by the "progressing wing" in their current drift from their "neoliberal instincts". Clinton is dead and gone for sure.

All indications at Amtrak are that the "Corridor Wing" holds sway in the Board and Executive Suite. I don't think Superliner replacement will be addressed before 2025. A refurbishment is already funded and starting up. Full replacement is not due until 2030. It is all documented in the Asset Plan that is informing the current Authorization Bill work.


----------



## Ferroequinologist (May 8, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Uh, the official name is the "Democratic Party," and while it's "progressive wing" is, indeed, influential, I wouldn't day that it "holds sway in Washington."
> 
> "Amtrak Joe" wasn't part of the progressive wing, but one should remember that nearly all of his Amtrak riding was between Washington and Wilmington. Thus, I suspect that long distance trains are probably not the first thing he thinks of when he thinks or train travel.



No he wasn't part of the progressive wing but he is now.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 8, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> The only real reason to put a high priority on replacing the Superliners is if their mechanical condition is so bad that reliability and safety are affected. If the cars are still in good mechanical condition, then an overhaul is probably OK if there isn't enough money available to replace them. And when it does get to the point that they actually *need* to be replaced, they will come up with money for it, because the current basic long-distance service has sufficient bipartisan support in Congress.



Don't count on the money being there in a few years. The money is there NOW. The government is spending TRILLIONS. Have you any idea just how much PPP money alone has been doled out? The actual figures have been released by the government. Google it. A restaurant around the corner from me got nearly a million $ and that is just one of countless businesses that have had their hands out. Yes I know that Amtrak is not taking PPP money but my point is that the government is spending massively now and that can't go on forever unless the US wants to end up like Argentina. There is some bipartisan support for Amtrak and a lot of opposition too. Amtrak has always struggled to make ends meet. What on earth makes you think there will be support for new Superliners a few years from now? Once things stabilize and Covid spending is behind us a less Democrat Congress will take a much closer look at the budget.


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## Bob Dylan (May 8, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> No he wasn't part of the progressive wing but he is now.


Hate to disagree, but Amtrak Joe is an "Establishment Centerist", it's in his DNA.


----------



## Mailliw (May 8, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Don't count on the money being there in a few years. The money is there NOW. The government is spending TRILLIONS. Have you any idea just how much PPP money alone has been doled out? The actual figures have been released by the government. Google it. A restaurant around the corner from me got nearly a million $ and that is just one of countless businesses that have had their hands out. Yes I know that Amtrak is not taking PPP money but my point is that the government is spending massively now and that can't go on forever unless the US wants to end up like Argentina. There is some bipartisan support for Amtrak and a lot of opposition too. Amtrak has for always struggled to make ends meet. What on earth makes you think there will be support for new Superliners a few years from now?. Once things stabilize and Covid spending is behind us a less Democrat Congress will take a much closer look at the budget.


Yep, Amtrak needs to strike while the iron is hot.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 9, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Hate to disagree, but Amtrak Joe is an "Establishment Centerist", it's in his DNA.



As I said, he WAS. The Wall Street Journal has dubbed him "Joe Sanders".


----------



## daybeers (May 9, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> As I said, he WAS. The Wall Street Journal has dubbed him "Joe Sanders".


 Which is incorrect. Joe Biden is a centrist Democrat. If you believe he is left of that, you’re analyzing too many biased news sources. Not that it matters in this thread or forum.


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## jis (May 9, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I don't understand why some people here think that the US should patch up old, run down equipment as though the US is a developing country. Trillions are being spent by the Administration in Washington but Amtrak has to buy new parts for broken down old trains?


I am with you on this. There is too much of let us make it like it was in the 1950s stuff or for the younger generation, let us make it like it was in 1980s, as the case may be. I suspect that perennial lack of funding has made people fall back to this borderline defeatist romanticism.

What we need to do is visualize what it needs to be like in the 202s and beyond and work towards that instead of coming up with more and more complex schemes to make it like back then.


----------



## Ryan (May 9, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> As I said, he WAS. The Wall Street Journal has dubbed him "Joe Sanders".



Perhaps you can explain using full sentences why you think that's the case, rather than reply in terse quips that demonstrate little to no understanding of what you're talking about.

Think for yourself for a minute and explain some of the policy provisions embraced by the President that put him in the progressive wing of a party who's name you can't even correctly use.


----------



## jiml (May 9, 2021)

jis said:


> I don't think Superliner replacement will be addressed before 2025. A refurbishment is already funded and starting up. Full replacement is not due until 2030.


If the refurb is done properly there is no reason they won't last until 2030. Are there things that would be done differently in a new car design? Certainly, but the Superliners are solid vehicles with a few flaws. I don't see them heading to "Bolivia" or anywhere else in the next 9 years, although if they did I'm sure VIA would want first crack at them given their expertise in maintaining older rolling stock.


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## jis (May 9, 2021)

jiml said:


> If the refurb is done properly there is no reason they won't last until 2030. Are there things that would be done differently in a new car design? Certainly, but the Superliners are solid vehicles with a few flaws. I don't see them heading to "Bolivia" or anywhere else in the next 9 years, although if they did I'm sure VIA would want first crack at them given their expertise in maintaining older rolling stock.


VIA did consider and pass on Superliners in the first round. Maybe they changed their mind since then.

Then again VIA probably won;t have enough of an LD service left to worry about such things by 2030.


----------



## jiml (May 9, 2021)

jis said:


> VIA did consider and pass on Superliners in the first round. Maybe they changed their mind since then.
> 
> Then again VIA probably won;t have enough of an LD service left to worry about such things by 2030.


Probably not to both your points unfortunately. The test of them in the west was recently revisited in another thread, but the pressure at the time was to "buy Canadian" - and of course they did neither. With recent orders focused on the corridor though, IF they wanted to continue LD used Superliners would be an easy and less expensive solution for the Canadian, freeing up more HEP stock for the Ocean and possibly resumed Gaspe service. Increased frequency on all of the above would also be possible - however unlikely.

Back to the original point though, when Amtrak moves on from Superliners I'd expect interest in North America long before they're shipped to another continent, as was suggested.


----------



## jis (May 9, 2021)

jiml said:


> Back to the original point though, when Amtrak moves on from Superliners I'd expect interest in North America long before they're shipped to another continent, as was suggested.


Oh yeah. I don't think they will go to any other continent. I agree that they are more likely to go to Canada or Mexico even, if they ever leave the US that is.

Who knows? Maybe Iran will buy a few


----------



## Ziv (May 9, 2021)

That would burn. The Iranian's got more use out of our F-14's than we did! For them to do the same with the SuperLiners would be adding insult to injury.
LOL!



jis said:


> Oh yeah. I don't think they will go to any other continent. I agree that they are more likely to go to Canada or Mexico even, if they ever leave the US that is.
> 
> Who knows? Maybe Iran will buy a few


----------



## neroden (May 15, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> As I said, he WAS. The Wall Street Journal has dubbed him "Joe Sanders".



Stop reading WSJ Editorial Page. They have a record of constant lies dating back over 50 years. No, really. There have been articles about it by Columbia Journalism Review every decade or so. Until the 2000s, you could play a game: read the letters column. It would contain the factual corrections to the lies -- fabricated statistics, falsified quotes -- which the Editorial Page had made the previous week. The people who had had quotes falsified (including world leaders) or had had statistics faked (including government agencies) wrote the letters.

When Murdoch bought the WSJ, they stopped publishing the correction letters. WSJ Editorial is still non-stop lies though. Don't read it.

I speak as a professional investor. WSJ used to have very good news pages, despite the lying Editorial staff (who were kept in a different building on the other side of the river). Murdoch ruined the news pages by unleashing the lying Editorial staff on them. Now I read Financial Times and Bloomberg.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 15, 2021)

neroden said:


> Stop reading WSJ Editorial Page. They have a record of constant lies dating back over 50 years. No, really. There have been articles about it by Columbia Journalism Review every decade or so. Until the 2000s, you could play a game: read the letters column. It would contain the factual corrections to the lies -- fabricated statistics, falsified quotes -- which the Editorial Page had made the previous week. The people who had had quotes falsified (including world leaders) or had had statistics faked (including government agencies) wrote the letters.
> 
> When Murdoch bought the WSJ, they stopped publishing the correction letters. WSJ Editorial is still non-stop lies though. Don't read it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ryan (May 15, 2021)

The funny thing about facts is that they're true whether you believe them or not.


----------



## jis (May 15, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I could not agree less. I find the WSJ the most reliable and independent paper in the nation. I don't always agree with them but I trust the paper's integrity. Some people like to read the extensive reader comments to get a pulse on public opinion. Incidentally, the WSJ editorialized for Trump's resignation after January 6. Few people seem to know that.


That certainly explain what seems to me to be many of your beliefs. The fact that you trust that paper's integrity says a lot. 

All IMHO of course and I don't claim to have the ultimate inside track to anything, except for how seriously I personally take comments from each individual


----------



## Bob Dylan (May 15, 2021)

neroden said:


> Stop reading WSJ Editorial Page. They have a record of constant lies dating back over 50 years. No, really. There have been articles about it by Columbia Journalism Review every decade or so. Until the 2000s, you could play a game: read the letters column. It would contain the factual corrections to the lies -- fabricated statistics, falsified quotes -- which the Editorial Page had made the previous week. The people who had had quotes falsified (including world leaders) or had had statistics faked (including government agencies) wrote the letters.
> 
> When Murdoch bought the WSJ, they stopped publishing the correction letters. WSJ Editorial is still non-stop lies though. Don't read it.
> 
> I speak as a professional investor. WSJ used to have very good news pages, despite the lying Editorial staff (who were kept in a different building on the other side of the river). Murdoch ruined the news pages by unleashing the lying Editorial staff on them. Now I read Financial Times and Bloomberg.


The WSJ, since Murdock took over, has as much credibility as Fox News Lineup of Lying Liars,Racists, Homophobes and Trump Cultists!


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## Ferroequinologist (May 16, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> The WSJ, since Murdock took over, has as much credibility as Fox News Lineup of Lying Liars,Racists, Homophobes and Trump Cultists!



How do you figure that when they criticized many of Trump's policies throughout his Administration, ultimately editorializing for his resignation? Base comments on actual facts, not heresy and prejudice.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 16, 2021)

jis said:


> That certainly explain what seems to me to be many of your beliefs. The fact that you trust that paper's integrity says a lot.
> 
> All IMHO of course and I don't claim to have the ultimate inside track to anything, except for how seriously I personally take comments from each individual



So if someone likes the NYT and the Washington Post you automatically support that person's views on Amtrak issues?


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## jis (May 16, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> So if someone likes the NYT and the Washington Post you automatically support that person's views on Amtrak issues?


No

I do not also automatically oppose the views of someone that reads the WSJ regarding Amtrak or anything else for that matter. Afterall I would not want to automatically perpetually disagree with myself since I do read the WSJ. 

I don't recall ever saying that I disagreed with all your views either. If you bother to go back and read through my reactions to all of your posts that I reacted to, you will find that you are mistaken if you believe I disagree with you on everything. All that I said is that the affinity to WSJ helps understand where you are coming from.


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## Ryan (May 16, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> How do you figure that when they criticized many of Trump's policies throughout his Administration, ultimately editorializing for his resignation? Base comments on actual facts, not heresy and prejudice.


You seem to have an incorrect idea of some ironclad correlation between "thinks Trump should have been impeached" and "therefore must always be factually accurate".

Here in the real world, there is no such correlation, and the formed does absolutely nothing to prove the latter. On the other hand, there's a fairly significant body of evidence that argues that the latter is completely off-base, and anyone choosing to believe it has suspect judgement and reasoning skills.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 16, 2021)

Ryan said:


> You seem to have an incorrect idea of some ironclad correlation between "thinks Trump should have been impeached" and "therefore must always be factually accurate".
> 
> Here in the real world, there is no such correlation, and the formed does absolutely nothing to prove the latter. On the other hand, there's a fairly significant body of evidence that argues that the latter is completely off-base, and anyone choosing to believe it has suspect judgement and reasoning skills.



Actually the WSJ called for Trump to resign. The impeachment process had come and gone. I never stated that everything in the WSJ is 100% accurate. All newspapers make mistakes, including the NYT. I recall a number of years ago a scandal when it was discovered that a NYT reporter had a habit of completely inventing stories. My point was that the WSJ is independent and I believe generally reliable - not perfect. You state that those who read the WSJ have 'suspect judgment and reasoning skills" thus I assume you opposed the Journal's call for Trump to resign, favor tarriffs and believe that immigration should be severely restricted. On all of these the Wall Street Journal opposed Trump as they criticized his tweets and frequent outbursts. Incidentally I also read the NYT however I do not identify with many of that newspapers positions, just as I disagree with some of the editorial positions of the WSJ (particularly regarding Amtrak). It is a pity that so many of the people in this nation are judgmental to the point of name calling rather than being willing to discuss ideas.


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## Ferroequinologist (May 16, 2021)

jis said:


> No
> 
> I do not also automatically oppose the views of someone that reads the WSJ regarding Amtrak or anything else for that matter. Afterall I would not want to automatically perpetually disagree with myself since I do read the WSJ.
> 
> I don't recall ever saying that I disagreed with all your views either. If you bother to go back and read through my reactions to all of your posts that I reacted to, you will find that you are mistaken if you believe I disagree with you on everything. All that I said is that the affinity to WSJ helps understand where you are coming from.



That sounds awfully judgmental however as you too read the WSJ I should be able to say the same, i.e. that I understand where you are coming from. Unfortunately it seems contradictory to me.


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## neroden (May 16, 2021)

I'm just going to quote Wikipedia. It includes citations. CJR is a neutral organization which cares only about quality in reporting.

----
Two summaries published in 1995 by the progressive blog Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, and in 1996 by the _Columbia Journalism Review_[70] criticized the _Journal_'s editorial page for inaccuracy during the 1980s and 1990s.

In July 2020, more than 280 _Journal_ journalists and Dow Jones staff members wrote a letter to new publisher Almar Latour to criticize the opinion pages' "lack of fact-checking and transparency, and its apparent disregard for evidence", adding that "opinion articles often make assertions that are contradicted by _WSJ_ reporting."[71][72] The editorial board responded that its opinion pages "won't wilt under cancel-culture pressure" and that the objective of the editorial content is to be independent of the _Journal_'s news content and offer alternative views to "the uniform progressive views that dominate nearly all of today's media."[73] The board's response did not address issues regarding fact-checking that had been raised in the letter.[74]
----

Bottom line: WSJ Editorial has no integrity whatsoever, and certainly has not had any since 1980. The reporters are better,* *and have actually complained about the lies in the Editorial Page* -- *but you should never, ever believe anything written by WSJ Editorial. Never. Facts matter.


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## neroden (May 16, 2021)

More from Wikipedia's article on the WSJ, again with citations:
----
_The Journal_'s editorial board has promoted fringe views on scientific matters, including climate change, acid rain, and ozone depletion, as well as on the health harms of second-hand smoke, pesticides and asbestos. Scholars have drawn similarities between _The Journal_'s fringe coverage of climate change and how it used to reject the settled science on acid rain and ozone depletion.[13]
----

Again, the people at WSJ Editorial are just liars. You have to face facts. This is not a matter of opinion.

Their interference with the news pages in recent years is also documented. It's in the Wikipedia article too, under "Bias in news pages". The journalists at WSJ have been the main whistleblowers regarding this interference. (This did not happen before the Murdoch takeover; before then, the news pages are WSJ actually were reliable. But the editorial page was already lying, even making claims contradicted by its own news pages.)

----
In June 2020, following the murder of George Floyd and subsequent protests, journalists at _The Journal_ sent a letter to editor in chief Matt Murray demanding changes to the way the paper covers race, policing and finance. The reporters stated that they "frequently meet resistance when trying to reflect the accounts and voices of workers, residents or customers, with some editors voicing heightened skepticism of those sources’ credibility compared with executives, government officials or other entities".[115]
----

Every newspaper has its problems. But WSJ Editorial has a record of lies which extends for decades. Here's the direct link to archive.org with the CJR story from 1996:





__





CJR - Bartleby's Believe it Or Not!, by Trudy Lieberman


The Columbia Journalism Review is the premier publication on the web about journalism, for journalists



web.archive.org





I advise reading the entire CJR story. You'll understand why I say that WSJ Editorial are liars.

Here's the link to the archive.org copy of the FAIR story from 1995, as well:




__





20 Reasons Not to Trust the Journal Editorial Page


1. When Anita Hill took a polygraph test to try to substantiate her charges of sexual harassment against Clarence Thomas, the Wall Street Journal attacked her in an editorial (10/15/91) titled \



web.archive.org


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## jis (May 17, 2021)

Here is a web page that has a comprehensive list of all the rail related grant programs managed by the FRA





__





Competitive Discretionary Grant Programs | FRA


Accepting Applications Federal-State Partnership for Intercity Passenger Rail Grant Program The Federal-State Partnership for Intercity Passenger Rail Grant Program (FSP-National) makes available fund




railroads.dot.gov





Here is a document describing the process for grant requests...



https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title49-section24319&num=0&edition=prelim


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## jis (May 17, 2021)

A CRS with lots of useful information about Amtrak projects and status. Slightly out of date but still quite informative and useful reference.









Amtrak: Overview


Amtrak is the nation’s primary provider of intercity passenger rail service. It was created by Congress in 1970 to preserve some level...




www.everycrsreport.com


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## Ryan (May 17, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I assume you opposed the Journal's call for Trump to resign, favor tarriffs and believe that immigration should be severely restricted.


That would be a prime example of your flawed black and white "logic". This isn't a game where you either agree or disagree 100% with anybody.

There are better news sources out there. I recommend you use them, rather than continue to carry the water for a bunch of lying liars that lie a lot (even if they did occasionally say something mean about Cheeto Jesus).


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## jis (May 17, 2021)

Ryan said:


> That would be a prime example of your flawed black and white "logic". This isn't a game where you either agree or disagree 100% with anybody.
> 
> There are better news sources out there. I recommend you use them, rather than continue to carry the water for a bunch of lying liars that lie a lot (even if they did occasionally say something mean about Cheeto Jesus).


That is indeed a problem with using WSJ as the sole source for justifying a position. If one must mention WSJ one should be able to provide additional references supporting ones position, in order to be taken seriously. But at this point I am trying to dig this thread out of the morass of discussing WSJ related hurt feelings and egos and other psychological trauma. Maybe we could start a WSJ Therapy thread under the AU Lounge.


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## NSC1109 (May 24, 2021)

Anyone notice that the grant request no longer includes Right of Way acquisition between Porter and Chicago? At least not that I saw on the projects oage


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## neroden (May 30, 2021)

NSC1109 said:


> Anyone notice that the grant request no longer includes Right of Way acquisition between Porter and Chicago? At least not that I saw on the projects oage


AAARGH! That remains the most-needed project west of the Appalachian Mountains....


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## NSC1109 (May 30, 2021)

neroden said:


> AAARGH! That remains the most-needed project west of the Appalachian Mountains....



I agree, but there were significant issues with trying to buy up ROW between Porter and Chicago. Not only would several lift bridges need to be placed back into service (or replaced altogether), there are some areas where the current NS right of way can’t expand any further on either side without significant redesign and construction efforts (the double track around Ogden Dunes specifically).

Is it truly possible? Sure. Is it cost-effective? That remains to be seen. I wonder if it would be better to just approach NS and offer to buy up the main line between 482 and Lumber Street, give NS trackage rights, and do it like that.


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## me_little_me (May 30, 2021)

NSC1109 said:


> Is it truly possible? Sure. Is it cost-effective? That remains to be seen. I wonder if it would be better to just approach NS and offer to buy up the main line between 482 and Lumber Street, give NS trackage rights, and do it like that.


Better yet, with NS and CSX being such obstinate "partners", the government should seize it under eminent domain so it can be taken immediately - then let the courts decide the price if NS doesn't want to quickly sit down and negotiate a reasonable one.


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## NSC1109 (May 30, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Better yet, with NS and CSX being such obstinate "partners", the government should seize it under eminent domain so it can be taken immediately - then let the courts decide the price if NS doesn't want to quickly sit down and negotiate a reasonable one.



NS should’ve been handed a nice punishment a long time ago for the way they’ve treated Amtrak services, especially in Michigan. Wholly criminal in their behavior. It continues on the Chicago Line. From what I heard (second hand info, do with it what it what you will), NS built up capacity improvements but their dispatchers are apparently so incompetent that they still manage to cause bottlenecks. Maybe it’s just the sheer amount of traffic, I don’t know.

CN is the other trouble child here. Their mixed freight trains are so long that they don’t really fit anywhere. There have been times when they’ve broken up trains in two or three places because they were so long and then had to shove back to three different sidings when they were ready to go. It was ridiculous.


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