# They Could Do It Then, Why Not Now?



## MrFSS (Nov 10, 2007)

Interesting card from my post card collection. Wish they could get these speeds today in the US.


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## WhoozOn1st (Nov 11, 2007)

That's a great postcard. But I wonder why, if the speed is true, the British locomotive Mallard is generally credited with the world record for steam, 126 MPH in 1938. Timing issues? Cheating on a downhill grade? Or what?


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## George Harris (Nov 12, 2007)

WhoozOn1st999 said:


> That's a great postcard. But I wonder why, if the speed is true, the British locomotive Mallard is generally credited with the world record for steam, 126 MPH in 1938. Timing issues? Cheating on a downhill grade? Or what?


This has been discussed exhaustively elsewhere. The long and short of it is that the British will never accept any of our old high speed steam runs as real because we did not have the electrical signal box to signal box timekeeping records they did, nor did anybody else who did not use British style signal and train control practices. There also seems to have never been the national level obsession with making and recording records in the US that they had in England and elsewhere. If you were to hear the Germans tell it, they hold the world speed record with steam, and they really might but we will never know because they did their own timing and recording in their own way, and no one else will accept what they did as real, either.

Note that the Pennsy speed run was made without any special preparation with a scheduled train. It was more like answering the how fast can you run? with how fast do I have to run? than a stopwatch checked run on a racetrack. Probably was a somewhat exciting ride. These others were set up and measured in similar fashion, considering the times, to the recent TGV speed runs.

I am of the opinion that if we could get the UP and ATSF big 4-8-4's out on something like a part of the ex ATSF line across Arizona and New Mexico or the freshly double tracked ex SP Sunset route and turn them loose, they could both leave any of these previous steam speed records in the dust.

George


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Feb 3, 2008)

The simplest answer is passenger trains were once a major form of advertising for railroads and if they couldn't run a passenger train ontime it would be hard to convince a shipper they could do it with a freight. So often times engineers were told do what ever is necessary to be on-time with out being overly reckless. Once Amtrak came along speed limits became strongly enforced, however i have heard of Amtrak speeding in not ATS areas. I would like to use a GPS cell phone that would give you a speed read-out to see just how closely speed limits are followed. There have to be times when trains are breaking speed limits somewhere.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 3, 2008)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> The simplest answer is passenger trains were once a major form of advertising for railroads and if they couldn't run a passenger train ontime it would be hard to convince a shipper they could do it with a freight. So often times engineers were told do what ever is necessary to be on-time with out being overly reckless. Once Amtrak came along speed limits became strongly enforced, however i have heard of Amtrak speeding in not ATS areas. I would like to use a GPS cell phone that would give you a speed read-out to see just how closely speed limits are followed. There have to be times when trains are breaking speed limits somewhere.


Why do you think that? Why would an engineer and conductor risk their jobs or a big fine to move the train faster?


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## AlanB (Feb 4, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> > The simplest answer is passenger trains were once a major form of advertising for railroads and if they couldn't run a passenger train ontime it would be hard to convince a shipper they could do it with a freight. So often times engineers were told do what ever is necessary to be on-time with out being overly reckless. Once Amtrak came along speed limits became strongly enforced, however i have heard of Amtrak speeding in not ATS areas. I would like to use a GPS cell phone that would give you a speed read-out to see just how closely speed limits are followed. There have to be times when trains are breaking speed limits somewhere.
> ...


Actually I've been told by an Amtrak engineer that unless the engine is running in an area with some form of PTC, that any pro-longed running over 82 MPH will cause the computer to dump the air. So unless he was pulling my leg, and he had no reason to be lying to me since I didn't even ask the question, it would seem unlikely that Amtrak's engineers are speeding with any regularity and/or at any excessive speed.

Besides, why would any engineer in today world with the current FRA regulations want to run the risk of loosing his/her license to drive any train engine, much less one owned by Amtrak. It's simply not worth the loss of their livelyhood to speed. They aren't going to get a bonus for bringng the train in early, and they aren't getting one either for trying to make up lost time.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Mar 5, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> ...


It was only by in the mid-upper 80's and I'm sure an experienced engineer knew when it was about to dump the air and could slow it back down to within the limit in time. I know the PTC system on the NEC has a 5mph buffer zone and someone claiming to be an Acela Engineer claims it is regular practice to run as close to the top of that buffer zone as possible. As far as the why the crew I talked to said the way they looked at it the sooner they get the train to the end of their portion the faster they get off work.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 5, 2008)

I can't imagine that being the case. The sooner they get caught, the sooner they get off of work- permanently.


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## mp-44 (Apr 25, 2008)

note the wheel arrangement on 7002 those 4-4-2 Atlantics were built to run As far as 4-8-4,s go the SP Daylight 4449 was clocked on RF&P trackage at better than 100 mph pulling the Freedom Train and I remenmber running with N&W 611 at 82mph pulling 22 cars Robert Claytor at the throttle and me as the fireman.the potential of steam was incredible


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## jackal (Apr 25, 2008)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> I know the PTC system on the NEC has a 5mph buffer zone and someone claiming to be an Acela Engineer claims it is regular practice to run as close to the top of that buffer zone as possible. As far as the why the crew I talked to said the way they looked at it the sooner they get the train to the end of their portion the faster they get off work.


I had an Acela engineer tell me (and I know he was an Acela engineer--I rode for 50 miles with him in the cab of the train!) that Amtrak unofficially encouraged them to push the limits a bit. He didn't say how much, though (he seemed to indicate that it was "a couple over"), but we did a good bit of 94mph in what I assume was 90mph territory.


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## George Harris (May 14, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> > The simplest answer is passenger trains were once a major form of advertising for railroads and if they couldn't run a passenger train ontime it would be hard to convince a shipper they could do it with a freight. So often times engineers were told do what ever is necessary to be on-time with out being overly reckless. Once Amtrak came along speed limits became strongly enforced, however i have heard of Amtrak speeding in not ATS areas. I would like to use a GPS cell phone that would give you a speed read-out to see just how closely speed limits are followed. There have to be times when trains are breaking speed limits somewhere.
> ...


In the past that was not the case. They were not risking their jobs. First and foremost, up through the end of Amtrak, and for some time into it, engineers on passenger trains were the top men on the seniority rosters and knew their territory like the back of their hand. Some could literally spot their train to the nearest foot at a stopping point with their eyes closed. As Crescent said, it was a matter of both pride and policy from the man in the cab to the RR president in his office. In the early 60's this attitude was stilll very much in play on some lines. I have as a college student riding the northbound City of New Orleans in 1963 when it was a day train, 16 hours between New Orleans and Chicago, watched milepost go past between Dyersburg TN and Fulton KY in 36 to 37 seconds each consistently for about 10 miles in what was 79 mph territory. We went from being 15 minutes late out of Memphis to being 5 minutes late into Fulton, and that simply could not be done within the speed limits. If you rode it regularly, you could tell without looking when the speed got over 90 mph by the difference in the ride.

In those days there was no FRA, no FRA track standards, and only the ICC regulation, which was why the 79 mph limit. It is entirely likely that the speed limit may have been higher prior to the signal rule, which went into effect in the early 50's.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 16, 2008)

I know that part. I was talking about Amtrak engineers.


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## George Harris (May 16, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I know that part. I was talking about Amtrak engineers.


AS you say, that was then. This is now. Chances are, if the line speed is 79 mph, you will not see more than about 79.4.


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