# Bedroom price vs. first class airfare



## jmbgeg (Jun 11, 2011)

I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:

I guess in part that how I got to nearly 30k rail miles last year.


----------



## GlobalistPotato (Jun 11, 2011)

jmbgeg said:


> I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:
> 
> I guess in part that how I got to nearly 30k rail miles last year.


You're going to have to book out farther than that for a fair comparison.

Well, I did the same itinerary, but it was for next January instead of this June. Amtrak comes out round trip of $1,592. Delta Airlines was at $1,052 for first class.


----------



## me_little_me (Jun 11, 2011)

jmbgeg said:


> I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:
> 
> I guess in part that how I got to nearly 30k rail miles last year.


Apples to oranges comparison.

Air travel is pure transportation. Even in first class, there is no "enjoyment", just slightly less hassle and comfort. It is best compared to coach travel on the train albeit, it's speed is much faster for long distances if time to destination is the most important factor.

Train travel using a sleeper is a vacation in itself. For those who can't fly due to medical reasons, fear of flying or whatever, then first class air is no alternative.


----------



## Tumbleweed (Jun 11, 2011)

me_little_me said:


> jmbgeg said:
> 
> 
> > I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:
> ...


This is a very good description....


----------



## jmbgeg (Jun 11, 2011)

GlobalistPotato said:


> jmbgeg said:
> 
> 
> > I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:
> ...


Still almost 2:00-1.

As for a later post, if there was not an enjoyment factor, I would not endure/enjoy the variance. I am not a detractor.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 11, 2011)

1.6 to 1 isn't really "almost 2.00".


----------



## Tumbleweed (Jun 11, 2011)

Ryan said:


> 1.6 to 1 isn't really "almost 2.00".


And...if you factor in the meals, it becomes closer yet......


----------



## yarrow (Jun 11, 2011)

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich. our family has been able to take a couple big ld trips a year using agr points for minimal expense but there is no way, even booking far out, we could afford ld sleeper travel anymore otherwise. as much as i enjoy riding, i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains(i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way). passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money on it but thought it had advertising value for their freight service. we pay taxes for roads and airports and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus. ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.


----------



## Mackensen (Jun 11, 2011)

Not to mention a markup for changing trains in Portland: you're always going to pay a certain baseline price for an accommodation no matter how far you go. Example: let's say you're going from CHI to SOB. That roomette will cost you $148 on the Capitol Limited or $162 on the Lake Shore Limited, even though you're aboard for about 90 minutes. If I did that hypothetical trip I'd consider doing PDX-SPK in coach, or even a roomette. You still get the meal and you're not really going to sleep.

Here's a sample trip for January 9, 2012 (I assume we're talking about standard bedrooms and not family bedrooms):


Coach fare (LAX-SPK): $148

Bedroom (LAX-PDX): $446

Bedroom (PDX-SPK): $202 or

Roomette (PDX-SPK): $132



I tend to assume that an included breakfast is worth $8, lunch $10 and dinner $20 when estimating costs (since I'm often traveling for business). Figure for the Coast Starlight you'll get four meals LAX-PDX: lunch, dinner, breakfast, lunch. Say $48. Throw in one wine tasting of indeterminate value (last time I was on the CS the second wine tasting occurred in Portland). Throw in a couple bucks for the free juice at TRAXX in LA. What's left is a little less than $400 for two days (albeit one night) in a private room, with access to a private first-class lounge (the parlor car). $200/day tracks fairly well with a nice hotel room, although the space and amenities are different.

The bedroom PDX-SPK is a tough sell. There's no diner, and you won't really get to sleep. No first class lounge either. From where I sit you might as well take the seat in coach and buy some food in the SSL. Save yourself $200 bucks.

There are some other economies. Baggage doesn't matter much: Delta allows three checked bags at no surcharge for First and Business Class travel. However, if you chose to do PDX-SPK in coach you wouldn't be out of pocket. If you're traveling with another person in the bedroom, you only have to pay the additional rail fare ($148), and suddenly you've almost halved the per-person cost of first-class travel. This, for me, is what really makes Amtrak attractive over long distances.

EDIT: Should have read that as SPK-LAX, not the other way round. I don't think it makes a material difference, except you get two dinners instead of two lunches on the CS.


----------



## bobnabq (Jun 11, 2011)

jmbgeg said:


> *Amtrak is $3,556* on my hypothetical June travel dates.


 

_*Wow ! At that price, I'd have to ride a freight train.*_


----------



## jmbgeg (Jun 11, 2011)

yarrow said:


> i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich. our family has been able to take a couple big ld trips a year using agr points for minimal expense but there is no way, even booking far out, we could afford ld sleeper travel anymore otherwise. as much as i enjoy riding, i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains(i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way). passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money on it but thought it had advertising value for their freight service. we pay taxes for roads and airports and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus. ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.


Don't go there. I am well empoloyed, but not rich. Amtrak is a good option for me.


----------



## ColdRain&Snow (Jun 11, 2011)

Mackensen said:


> If you're traveling with another person in the bedroom, you only have to pay the additional rail fare ($148), and suddenly you've almost halved the per-person cost of first-class travel.


And insofar as traveling as a solo sleeping car passenger, roomette travel is a very enjoyable way to go, even preferable to some of us for reasons that have nothing to do with cost. And I think that a roomette is a more realistic accommodation to use if you insist upon comparing a first class airline seat to Amtrak's sleeping car service.

As soon as you adjust the comparison to use a roomette rather than a bedroom, the disparity you declare in your subtopic largely evaporates. Having just compared the metrics for an upcoming trip I booked yesterday, sleeping car service from Seattle to Los Angeles totaled $515.50 whereas a first class ticket on Virgin America for the same day of travel is currently priced at $530.70.


----------



## AlanB (Jun 11, 2011)

yarrow said:


> i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.


Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.


----------



## Guest (Jun 11, 2011)

AlanB said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.
> ...


I don't think that's even quite accurate: offseason, the sleeper fares can be quite reasonable (2-3x what the rail fare is, plus the rail fare, for a Bedroom), so despite the fact that such an accommodation equals about the space of 6 seats, the total fare received is less. So, sometimes, the subsidizing is on the other foot!


----------



## jmbgeg (Jun 11, 2011)

AlanB said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.
> ...


Alan is right on point.


----------



## pennyk (Jun 11, 2011)

jmbgeg said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


Isn't he always :lol:


----------



## guest (Jun 11, 2011)

Current rail fare (at random) for Palm Springs to San Antonio on August 17: 213 dollars (train 2)

Current roomette for same: 215 dollars

Current bedroom for same: 797 dollars

Just sayin'...


----------



## AlanB (Jun 11, 2011)

Guest said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


Off season, peak season isn't the point. The net affect over one year's time is that the sleepers reduce the subsidy to the coaches. And while it might be true that during the off season the sleepers don't cover things, keep in mind that the coach subsidy also gets worse at the same time.

And it should also be noted that when this study was done it was based upon 2004 data; sleeper prices have taken a major spike since then. Far more of a spike that could be attributed to just increasing costs. Demand is way up and Amtrak is adjusting prices much higher simply because they can.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 11, 2011)

Agreed, Alan. I'd love to see the same study on the CY 2010 data, or even the first half of FY11 data. I have a feeling that it would be eye opening for some people.


----------



## Guest (Jun 11, 2011)

Tumbleweed said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > 1.6 to 1 isn't really "almost 2.00".
> ...


First class airfare has meals included as well so it is not closer. In fact first class airfare has free booze so that spreads it out actually.

I don't put much extra value in Amtrak meals. They are not bad, but they nothing to write home about either. On top of that the service is very rough around the edges (Amtrak desperately needs a good systemwide maitre'd).


----------



## guest (Jun 11, 2011)

A roomette occupies slightly more than the square footage of three coach seats; based on the prices I posted above, do you think more money is generated by coach, or sleeper? Keep in mind, August is PEAK season!


----------



## trainmaster611 (Jun 11, 2011)

AlanB said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.
> ...


Do you have a link to that study?


----------



## had8ley (Jun 11, 2011)

jmbgeg said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


I totally agree but what is it going to take to get Washington politicians to stop screaming "luxury land cruises?" It's almost a worn out detrimental term that might even show up in Webster's if they keep howling it in the chambers of Congress. Goes to show that even though Congress is heavily "lawyered up" that they aren't very astute on rail facts.


----------



## HotlantaAl (Jun 11, 2011)

guest said:


> Current rail fare (at random) for Palm Springs to San Antonio on August 17: 213 dollars (train 2)
> 
> Current roomette for same: 215 dollars
> 
> ...



That's for August 17, check those prices when the train pulls out of the station. I bet those accommodation charges will be must higher. Take the average accommodation cost at the day of travel and see how high it is.

Just sayin'...


----------



## tnrkitect (Jun 11, 2011)

Let me offer a case study.

At the end of the month, I and my wife will be traveling to visit my sister-in-law at the University of Idaho in Moscow, ID (to paraphrase a local saying, Lord willing and the creek falls back down)

According to Expedia.com, flying coach from Huntsville to Spokane is $611 per person, so for my wife and I it would be $1222.

Amtrak, in coach two weeks prior to departure is $1102 per person, so a total of $2204 if you just buy on their site, however a 14 day rail pass is $398 per person, so $786 total and is more than adequate for the travel. (6 segments out of the 8 allowed)

Upgrading to 1st class air, yields a round trip price of $1953 per person, or a total of $3906, whereas my trip via Amtrak using a railpass and upgrading to Roomettes the entire distance, but instead of retracing our route back the way we came, we continue on to PDX, then LAX, then NOL before arriving back in Alabama at BHM was only $2100.

As you can see, the train is almost $1800 cheaper, and even including hotels in LAX, NOL, and Glacier park is still a cool $1000 less than 1st class airfare, and doesn't even take into consideration the meals that are included as a sleeper passenger.


----------



## AlanB (Jun 11, 2011)

trainmaster611 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/resources/more/sleeping_cars/


----------



## Guest (Jun 11, 2011)

tnrkitect said:


> As you can see, the train is almost $1800 cheaper, and even including hotels in LAX, NOL, and Glacier park is still a cool $1000 less than 1st class airfare, and doesn't even take into consideration the meals that are included as a sleeper passenger.


Meals are included in first class airfare as well with free booze. You are trying so hard to make a point that you overdid it and now it doesnt make sense. That doesnt matter of course since most of this is preaching to the choir.


----------



## The Davy Crockett (Jun 12, 2011)

yarrow said:


> long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.


Hardly. I'm not rich, but choose to spend money on LD trains because it is important enough to me. Rich is having your own private car(s) to ride around the country in. You've been listening to too much whitewashing propaganda from the extreme right wing. As you yourself say:



> i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way





> i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains


 Look at the efficiency of, and numbers of pax in Europe and Asia. I think they are good arguements for LD pax service, but yes, just like roads and airlines, it takes government support.



> passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money


Pax service started to loose money because of the HUGE subsidies which 'planes and cars' were given by government.



> we pay taxes for roads and airports


The gas tax and airport fees do not pay for the HUGE sums of cash government continues to throw at 'planes and cars.'



> ...and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus.


Bus lines get huge subsidies from the government. Its called roads. Sounds like your saying that to travel one must either be rich enough to have a private jet, private varnish, or a limo with a driver, or be uncomfortable.



> ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.


 Just what the extremist right wing and the wealthy who have jets, PV and limos, want us to believe.


----------



## RCrierie (Jun 12, 2011)

GlobalistPotato said:


> You're going to have to book out farther than that for a fair comparison.


A better comparison would be emergency last minute trips THAT HAVE TO BE DONE RIGHT NOW!

A good example would be suddenly having to go to Florida following the death of a parent/grandparent to put their affairs in order.

A quick look on travel sites and booking systems during 5:20 to 6:00 PM on 14 May 2011 showed:

AMTK #97 Silver Meteor: 7:30 PM (2 hours from departure – WAS/ORL): $225 for coach, $583 in total for a roomette upgrade (17.5~ hrs)

United #260 10:05 PM (4.5 hours from departure – Dulles/Orlando Intl): $1,187 (2~ hrs nonstop)

(Waiting for the next day's flight listings brought the price down to $500-600 if you were willing to put up with a connecting flight to Orlando with a stopover in Atlanta or something)

You can see that the cost of traveling down to FL is less than half that of the airlines -- and you can gain the extra advantage of being able to sleep on your trip, and such a late departure plays to the train's advantage:

Air: Arrive at Dulles at 9 PM, fly out at 10 PM, land in Orlando at about 12 Midnightish; then crash at a hotel you found at around 1:30 AM. Sleep late, get out of bed at maybe 9:30 AM for the day.

Train: Get to Union Station at 6:45 PM, leave at 7:30 PM, sleep in your roomette, and arrive in Orlando around 1 PM.

Essentially with the flight, you're paying twice the money to gain about two-three hours of time if you have to leave IMMEDIATELY that afternoon.


----------



## Anderson (Jun 12, 2011)

I'd like to point out that a roomette is generally a good choice for one person and a tight squeeze for two. To get a good comparison on a bedroom, book two people in it and compare that to two first class airfare tickets.

Edit: Could someone go ahead and check Hampton Roads to Des Moines and back around Christmas?


----------



## Long Train Runnin' (Jun 12, 2011)

Anderson said:


> I'd like to point out that a roomette is generally a good choice for one person and a tight squeeze for two. To get a good comparison on a bedroom, book two people in it and compare that to two first class airfare tickets.
> 
> Edit: Could someone go ahead and check Hampton Roads to Des Moines and back around Christmas?


I don't think Roomettes are a "tight" squeeze for two people. I've traveled across the country twice in roomettes with 2 people in the room both over 6 feet tall sure there isn't a whole lot of extra room, but I wouldn't call it a squeeze.


----------



## ColdRain&Snow (Jun 12, 2011)

Anderson said:


> I'd like to point out that a roomette is generally a good choice for one person and a tight squeeze for two. To get a good comparison on a bedroom, book two people in it and compare that to two first class airfare tickets.
> 
> Edit: Could someone go ahead and check Hampton Roads to Des Moines and back around Christmas?


Along the same lines and as I alluded to above, when traveling solo as the OP implied through his verbiage, it is nonsensical to attempt the comparison of a deluxe bedroom to a first class airline seat. When you correct and recalibrate the comparison to use a roomette, there is simply no gaping disparity to be crowing about. I suppose it wasn't thought through carefully.


----------



## Mackensen (Jun 12, 2011)

Anderson said:


> I'd like to point out that a roomette is generally a good choice for one person and a tight squeeze for two. To get a good comparison on a bedroom, book two people in it and compare that to two first class airfare tickets.
> 
> Edit: Could someone go ahead and check Hampton Roads to Des Moines and back around Christmas?


I suppose the closest booking would be Newport News (NPN)-Osceola (OSC). It's about fifty miles up I-35 to Des Moines. Jefferson Lines has two daily frequencies, neither of which connects with the westbound Zephyr. $13/each way, per person. You might want to consider an overnight in Osceola westbound. Ditto for the eastbound Zephyr. I'm assuming leaving NPN on Tuesday, December 20 and returning Tuesday, December 27.

Coach fare for two would be $282/outbound. Roomette on the Capitol Limited is $245 outbound; bedroom would be $534. You're only on the Zephyr six hours (2 PM-8 PM), so you could easily skip an accommodation at just eat in Osceola. Roomette would be $127; bedroom $415. Going back, the 27th is unavailable because the later Newport News trains (#83 and #99) only run Friday-Sunday. Coach fare inbound would be $328. 7 hours on the Zephyr; roomette would be $192 and bedroom $488. Roomette on the Cap would be $245; bedroom $624.

Low, middle and high estimates:


Low (no accommodation on the Zephyr): $1,722

Middle (roomette on the Zephyr): $2,041

High (bedrooms all the way): $2,625



First class Delta Airlines from Newport News to Des Moines: $1,320 per person round-trip, or $2,725.60 (including taxes/fees) altogether.


----------



## RCrierie (Jun 12, 2011)

Have you tried recalibrating it for extended economy class? I know that some airlines offer extended economy with more legroom (vital for a 6 footer like me).


----------



## amamba (Jun 12, 2011)

RCrierie said:


> Have you tried recalibrating it for extended economy class? I know that some airlines offer extended economy with more legroom (vital for a 6 footer like me).


Extended economy is actually a better comparison for amtrak than regular coach on a plane. I wouldn't ever put extended economy into the same category as a roomette. There is no additional space in the width of the seat and there are no additional perks over economy - except for more leg room and perhaps early boarding (depending on the airline). Not a valid comparison to sleeper IMO.


----------



## Anderson (Jun 12, 2011)

Mack,

Thanks for checking that. Roomette-ing on the Cap (coach on the other legs), I got about $800 (it was like $790) for a round trip RVR-OSC (RVR trumps NPN because of the additional train options there...which is rather important on the way back in the event of snow). It could've been slightly less, but I opted for the Meteor home instead.

On the CZ, I generally _try_ to grab dinner, even if I have to pay cash for it. Given how the trains run in December (a little slow), this generally works out pretty well...but I recognize that I'm gambling with it.

Comparing the $800 to the FC fare, I suspect I'm coming out _well_ ahead (to the tune of $500)...and I'm not doing too badly vs. a coach airfare (Des Moines is a bit infamous for expensive airfares).


----------



## Mackensen (Jun 12, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Mack,
> 
> Thanks for checking that. Roomette-ing on the Cap (coach on the other legs), I got about $800 (it was like $790) for a round trip RVR-OSC (RVR trumps NPN because of the additional train options there...which is rather important on the way back in the event of snow). It could've been slightly less, but I opted for the Meteor home instead.
> 
> On the CZ, I generally _try_ to grab dinner, even if I have to pay cash for it. Given how the trains run in December (a little slow), this generally works out pretty well...but I recognize that I'm gambling with it.


Agreed that RVR makes more sense, but I didn't know how much you wanted to move around Virginia  .


----------



## PaulM (Jun 12, 2011)

Long Train Runnin said:


> I don't think Roomettes are a "tight" squeeze for two people. I've traveled across the country twice in roomettes with 2 people in the room both over 6 feet tall sure there isn't a whole lot of extra room, but I wouldn't call it a squeeze.


It is a tight squeeze for the rich land cruisers. But for a middle class couple who have taking many rides in them, a roomette is just about right.


----------



## Anderson (Jun 12, 2011)

PaulM said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think Roomettes are a "tight" squeeze for two people. I've traveled across the country twice in roomettes with 2 people in the room both over 6 feet tall sure there isn't a whole lot of extra room, but I wouldn't call it a squeeze.
> ...


Well, the legroom situation can compare slightly unfavorably with coach in a roomette, especially if you want/need to doze during the day somewhere (such as some parts of the plains in the MW after an early wakeup on the way into Chicago). It can get especially tight if you've got a bad baggage situation...but you're right: I've seen it work well enough with couples, too.


----------



## leemell (Jun 12, 2011)

yarrow said:


> i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich. our family has been able to take a couple big ld trips a year using agr points for minimal expense but there is no way, even booking far out, we could afford ld sleeper travel anymore otherwise. as much as i enjoy riding, i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains(i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way). passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money on it but thought it had advertising value for their freight service. we pay taxes for roads and airports and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus. ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.


This sounds like you are arguing with yourself. You have put up both sides then simply say buses work better. BTW, have you every ridden a long distance bus? Comfortable? Convenient? How was the food?


----------



## Anderson (Jun 12, 2011)

leemell said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich. our family has been able to take a couple big ld trips a year using agr points for minimal expense but there is no way, even booking far out, we could afford ld sleeper travel anymore otherwise. as much as i enjoy riding, i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains(i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way). passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money on it but thought it had advertising value for their freight service. we pay taxes for roads and airports and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus. ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.
> ...


If you're flexible with travel dates and you do things efficiently, it's not _that_ bad...especially if you knock a day or two off a hotel stay in the process (which is going to save you another $100-200). It's only egregiously expensive if you go with the most expensive option(s).


----------



## yarrow (Jun 12, 2011)

leemell said:


> BTW, have you every ridden a long distance bus? Comfortable? Convenient? How was the food?


i and our family have ridden the dog many times. i think that is part of my point. we are a hard working middle class family with 2 kids in college and another headed that way. we can afford the occasional spk-sea or spk-pdx coach trip but, without an agr award, anything more isn't in the cards for us. working the agr/bonus points/get x points for getting this credit card system we have taken several nice sleeper trips in the past few years. my observation has been that the sleepers carry mainly vacationing retirees and the coaches a more varied lot. i don't mind paying a subsidy for the coach folks though i think they could more efficently be transported by bus but i don't think we need to pay a subsidy for those in the sleepers. perhaps they recieve slightly less of a subsidy than coach passengers but i don't know as they need one at all.


----------



## AlanB (Jun 13, 2011)

yarrow said:


> i don't mind paying a subsidy for the coach folks though i think they could more efficently be transported by bus but i don't think we need to pay a subsidy for those in the sleepers. perhaps they recieve slightly less of a subsidy than coach passengers but i don't know as they need one at all.


So you'd rather be paying a higher subsidy for those in coach by eliminating the sleepers entirely, than to pay a lower subsidy per person for everyone to move from point a to b? 

Again, it's not just the sleeper pax that are getting a lower railfare subsidy because of how much they pay, those sleeper pax are reducing the subsidy for those in coach too! Take away the sleeper subsidy, by removing the sleepers, and the subsidy per person in coach goes higher.


----------



## VentureForth (Jun 13, 2011)

Guest said:


> Tumbleweed said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


The included meals typically are only covered by a small token of the upgrade cost to a sleeper. It's still WAY cheaper to go Coach and pay for meals in the Diner.

That being said, a TRUE feature of sleeping class is that you are almost always guaranteed a meal - not so for poor coach pax.

It is a true travesty that there are folks willing to give Amtrak their money, but for some reason or another, Amtrak isn't equipped to get it from them (I'm specifically referring to lost dining revenue on coach pax, but other examples exist).


----------



## RCrierie (Jun 13, 2011)

amamba said:


> Not a valid comparison to sleeper IMO.


A transcontinental trip from Dulles to San Francisco International takes about 6 hours. The extra legroom is more than enough for a trip of that length. It's not like you're trying to sleep in the plane, unlike a 14 1/2 hour trip from Dulles to Tokyo.


----------



## Oldsmoboi (Jun 13, 2011)

What kind of meal is served in a first class flight from LAX to ORD? Certainly not anything close to the steak that Amtrak serves... and Amtrak serves you that at least 4 times plus breakfasts and lunch


----------



## yarrow (Jun 13, 2011)

AlanB said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > i don't mind paying a subsidy for the coach folks though i think they could more efficently be transported by bus but i don't think we need to pay a subsidy for those in the sleepers. perhaps they recieve slightly less of a subsidy than coach passengers but i don't know as they need one at all.
> ...


i don't particularly want to eliminate sleepers just the subsidy we pay for travel for sleeper passengers. make them pay the full non taxpayer supported cost of their travel as generally they can afford it.


----------



## eagle628 (Jun 13, 2011)

Oldsmoboi said:


> What kind of meal is served in a first class flight from LAX to ORD? Certainly not anything close to the steak that Amtrak serves... and Amtrak serves you that at least 4 times plus breakfasts and lunch



If it takes four steak dinners worth of time to get from CHI to LAX, it's going to take a lot more than good food to get me back on another train in the future.


----------



## Oldsmoboi (Jun 13, 2011)

yarrow said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


Well it's happening on it's own already. Sleeper prices have increased greatly


----------



## Trogdor (Jun 13, 2011)

yarrow said:


> i don't particularly want to eliminate sleepers just the subsidy we pay for travel for sleeper passengers. make them pay the full non taxpayer supported cost of their travel as generally they can afford it.


That's already happening. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

Given that the train is already running (and since you are okay with subsidizing coach travel, then we must assume that the train will run), Amtrak is better off financially by offering and selling sleeper space than by not doing so.


----------



## saxman (Jun 13, 2011)

yarrow said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


AlanB already proved to you that taxpayers aren't subsidizing sleeping cars. And you even said it yourself. So the sleeper pax are already paying their full cost of operating the sleeping cars, and then some!

I did a calculation a few months ago and forgot what the actual numbers were and I don't have time to go digging, so I'm going to guess: Only about 10% of Amtrak's LD passengers are sleeping car passengers, but they provide something like 30 or 40% of the revenue for the LD trains. Again, I can't remember the actual numbers but it's something like that. Getting rid of sleepers would get rid of something like 30 to 40% of the revenue!

Here's the quote from earlier in this thread:



> Myth!
> It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.
> 
> So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.


----------



## leemell (Jun 13, 2011)

yarrow said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


Given the numbers from AlanB and others, it is quite clear that Amtrak would be better off eliminating coach and making the trains all sleepers.


----------



## Oldsmoboi (Jun 13, 2011)

eagle628 said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of meal is served in a first class flight from LAX to ORD? Certainly not anything close to the steak that Amtrak serves... and Amtrak serves you that at least 4 times plus breakfasts and lunch
> ...


Well then you're not traveling for the trip, you're traveling for the destination... which is a perfectly valid reason, but you still need to include all those meals if you are going to compare pricing.

How is the scenery at 30,000 feet?


----------



## Trogdor (Jun 13, 2011)

leemell said:


> Given the numbers from AlanB and others, it is quite clear that Amtrak would be better off eliminating coach and making the trains all sleepers.


Why must the solution be some ridiculous extreme?


----------



## Tumbleweed (Jun 13, 2011)

I would suspect there are some instances where a businessman would welcome the opportunity to work in an environment for a couple days where he is not interrupted, while en route to or from a conference or whatever........


----------



## leemell (Jun 13, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> > Given the numbers from AlanB and others, it is quite clear that Amtrak would be better off eliminating coach and making the trains all sleepers.
> ...


Just to illustrate the logical conclusion of this kind of proposal.


----------



## yarrow (Jun 13, 2011)

AlanB said:


> The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy.


why not eliminate this subsidy?


----------



## Peter KG6LSE (Jun 13, 2011)

I have bad Knees and ail be dammed if My next trip to LA is my bus . Most of YOU are older much older do you want to be on a Bus for 19 H NO !

I did teh bus Today	. its not bad for inter city like 100 M or so but over 3 Hours and you are In for some Serious leg pain .

Keep it the way it is ! . its Broken from a ideal world standpoint . but Il bet its the best they can do .

Amtrak will NEVER be a cash cow but cutting any thing is just a bad idea as SOME OF US RELY ON IT .

the day I can catch a 737 from Ottumwa Il have no need for a train .

I get the " Oh just drive " . I CANT . want to SUBSIDIZE my r 1.5 cab ride to Desmoins ! NO .

not every one has the option to fly or drive .

Keep the coach .

w what they are doing is called a LOSS LEADER . its done at just about evey retail store in the US .

Oh heck the wallmart here does it !

the can Cut super costs on some items and make up the money in sheer bulk saies on other items .

cutting coach is BAD but adding MORE Sleepers	to get to where the market wil filll them is not a bad idea .

the ratio is Sleep to coach is how much amtrak can make Off teh net train total .

at some point they can maximize there profits ( Min Loss in the system )

peter


----------



## Ispolkom (Jun 13, 2011)

yarrow said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy.
> ...


I think whoever spends $3,556 to travel SPK-PDX-LAX (the OP's example) isn't getting much of a subsidy. I'm all for maximizing sleeper revenue, but it seems perverse to set prices so high that rooms run empty, just to eliminate a notional subsidy.


----------



## amamba (Jun 13, 2011)

Oldsmoboi said:


> What kind of meal is served in a first class flight from LAX to ORD? Certainly not anything close to the steak that Amtrak serves... and Amtrak serves you that at least 4 times plus breakfasts and lunch


While I haven't taken domestic first class from Lax to Chi, the food is probably better than the nasty amtrak steak I had this year on the SWC that was full of gristle and completely overcooked to well done when I requested rare. Disgusting.

I found this on the american airlines website, sounds like the food is pretty good:

http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInformation/duringFlight/dining/domesticMealService.jsp

Domestic Features

* Grilled barbecue chicken salad garnished with bleu cheese and spiced pecans

* Artichoke mezzaluna pasta


----------



## Trogdor (Jun 13, 2011)

leemell said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > leemell said:
> ...


The conclusion is only "logical" to those who misunderstand the facts.



Ispolkom said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


The problem with this entire discussion is that the discussion is centered around the idea of a subsidy "per passenger."

No such subsidy exists.

The train costs X to run. Much of that is spent whether you have nobody on the train or 400 people on the train.

Then there are step costs that are fixed across a certain range, but may go up or down if that range is exceeded (adding an extra coach, for example).

There are other costs associated with certain service levels (running a dining car vs. a lounge-only train).

To offset those costs, you need revenues. Most of those revenues will come from the passengers who buy tickets. There are very few cases where the marginal cost of transporting an individual passenger exceeds the revenue from that passenger.

It is also absolutely ridiculous to suggest that any train in the system would do better financially if it carried fewer passengers.

You really can't say you are going to "eliminate the subsidy" for a certain passenger or a certain group of passengers. The subsidy is for the train, not the passenger. The passengers offset the subsidy with ticket revenues. For those who want to "eliminate the subsidy," what they are really saying is "eliminate the train." If the fares were to increase to the level required (under current ridership) to cover the full cost of operation, the effect would be a reduction in ridership and revenue that would greatly exceed whatever is gained from the fare increase. (I will note the irony that there are folks who complain about Amtrak fares, particularly sleeper fares, being "too high" and then, at the same time, say we should not subsidize sleeper travel, ignoring the painfully obvious reality that lowering the fares on a service that is already frequently sold out increases the overall loss for the service, thereby increasing the subsidy required to keep the train running...simple arithmetic, people).

The figure of "subsidy per passenger" (or "subsidy per passenger-mile") or any other hybrid of total current loss and current ridership numbers is not a valid tool for planning. The only thing it is useful for is cheap shots by politicians and anyone else who wants to campaign against passenger rail. If you really want to make an honest financial analysis of the service with the intent of finding ways to improve it, then you must understand that the subsidy per user number is a byproduct of the financial performance, and not an actual input into the equation.


----------



## Oldsmoboi (Jun 14, 2011)

amamba said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of meal is served in a first class flight from LAX to ORD? Certainly not anything close to the steak that Amtrak serves... and Amtrak serves you that at least 4 times plus breakfasts and lunch
> ...


I've been quite happy with the steak on the Cap. Ltd. It's no Ruth's Chris, but it's pretty good.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 14, 2011)

Oldsmoboi said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > Oldsmoboi said:
> ...


Seconded. The steak that I had on the Silver Star was one of the best steaks that I've ever had, cooked to perfection just on the rare side of mid rare.


----------



## amamba (Jun 14, 2011)

Perhaps I got a bad piece of meat and a chef that wasn't properly trained. It seems like the only solution will be another LD train ride - immediately - with an order of steak in the dining car. I do have some AGR points burning a hole in my account....


----------



## Ryan (Jun 14, 2011)

Yes, clearly more data is needed! 

(I don't doubt the veracity of the story, eating in the Diner can be a little bit like playing the lotto sometimes - you never know what you're going to get!)


----------



## Mackensen (Jun 14, 2011)

Well, to add a data point, I had steak aboard both the SWC and the EB last month. The SWC was excellent--one of the better steaks I've had, period. The EB was fair-to-good.


----------



## volkris (Jun 14, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> It is also absolutely ridiculous to suggest that any train in the system would do better financially if it carried fewer passengers.
> 
> You really can't say you are going to "eliminate the subsidy" for a certain passenger or a certain group of passengers. The subsidy is for the train, not the passenger. The passengers offset the subsidy with ticket revenues.


Ha: selling tickets as a way to subsidize subsidies. What a world...


----------



## Anderson (Jun 14, 2011)

Mackensen said:


> Well, to add a data point, I had steak aboard both the SWC and the EB last month. The SWC was excellent--one of the better steaks I've had, period. The EB was fair-to-good.


Let me add 15 data points from this year alone:

-Meteor dinners this year: I've had about 8 of them...all but one were excellent steak dinners. In the one outlying instance, the steak was overcooked.

-LSL dinner, NYP-CHI: Another solid steak.

-SWC dinners, CHI-FLG: Excellent braised beef, excellent salmon.

-SWC dinners, LAX-KCY: Excellent salmon (IIRC), solid steak (IIRC).

-TE dinner, STL-DAL: _Amazing_ ribs.

As a rule, the turkey dinner they offer at the holidays is solid as well (add two bouts of this at Christmas, 2010 and an additional steak outbound, again IIRC). The crabcakes on the Cap have always been a solid selection as well (I never had one I regretted).

For FY11, I've had (by my count) 17 dinners and 16 were solid. As to breakfast...I stay away from the scrambled eggs, but the French Toast is always an excellent choice when coupled with an order of bacon and a glass of milk.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 14, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> > amamba said:
> ...


I haven't had AA's domestic FC food but I have sampled their international coach entrees a few times and they weren't any good. Lots of mystery meat and overcooked veggies and frozen personal pizzas and the like. About as far from fresh as you can get. Worse than Amtrak by far and the "Flagship Service" menu they handed out just made it all the more laughable. The one and only airline meal I was ever impressed with was on Thai Airways. Everything else has been borderline terrible. I would imagine AA's FC food is better but I hardly ever fly first class so I'm the wrong person to talk to about that. I'm perfectly willing to pay extra for E+ or the like, but that's it. When I'm on a short flight I don't need a meal and when I'm on a long flight all I want to do is take some sleeping pills, have a few drinks, and crash out. There's not much to see or do on an airplane so I want the trip to be over and done as quickly as possible.

Getting back to Amtrak, I did notice that the last steak dinner I had was not nearly as bad as the one before it. I'm not sure what exactly was different, but the taste and the texture of the steak was substantially improved.  Maybe all these name changes they've been propagating actually mean something. I'm tempted to say I was _almost_ impressed. Unfortunately my potential for culinary enjoyment was brought back down with powdered potatoes and a soggy vegetable medley on a cheap plastic plate. You get the feeling that a good meal is only a few steps away, but it just never quite gets there. -_-


----------



## OlympianHiawatha (Jun 14, 2011)

I'll take Amtrak chow ANY day over ANY airline slung chow.


----------



## JayPea (Jun 14, 2011)

I don't eat much steak, preferring seafood or poultry, but last year on the Sunset Limited my wild streak came out :lol: and I had the steak one night. And I really enjoyed it! This coming from someone who doesn't eat steak too often and in fact, don't care for it all that much.


----------



## jis (Jun 14, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I'll take Amtrak chow ANY day over ANY airline slung chow.


I can think of several airlines of which I will take the International Business Class food any day over typical Amtrak Diner fare. But then I would expect it to be that good too considering the fare payed.


----------



## Anderson (Jun 15, 2011)

jis said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > I'll take Amtrak chow ANY day over ANY airline slung chow.
> ...


I'm guessing it's a few of the Middle Eastern show-off carriers (like Emirates and their sleeper jets)?


----------



## fredandgingermad (Jun 15, 2011)

Another thing to consider between Amtrak and airplane travel, is that while your airplane might get you there in a fraction of the time and cost a couple of hundred dollars less depending on the route, if you're heading on vacation you have to pay for hotels when you get there on top of the airplane travel. I've yet to enjoy travel in a sleeper but if the option was coast to coast on Amtrak in sleeper (3/4 nights on train all meals inc) or a first class plane ticket (7 hours from LAX-JFK?) plus hotel bills on top, i'd much rather take Amtrak every single time 

Also i really enjoyed the steaks i had on the Sunset Limited and the Empire Builder last year ^_^


----------



## jis (Jun 15, 2011)

Anderson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > OlympianHiawatha said:
> ...


Actually, I'd take even Continental's international Business First (with lie-flat bed accommodation) food service over Amtrak's food service anyday both in terms of quality, presentation and variety and also the quality and consistency of service.

I am not talking of outfits like Singapore Airlines which actually has a large menu which you can select specific dishes from upto 24 hours before departure for your various meals and enter them via the web into your PNR, and they will deliver the individualized dishes for your meals. This turns out to be really nice on the 19 hour non-stop flight from Newark to Singapore for example. That is in the same running time category as the Lake Shore Limited. In addition to the food they have a very well stocked buffet laid out at the rear of the plane where you can walk over to any time and partake of whatever you like, including some really good booze. And mind you this is just Business Class. Frist Class Suites are a different matter altogether, both in price and sesvice.

Incidentally, one can at least enjoy the lie-flat bed/seats on several domestic flights that are continuation of international 757 flights from Europe. Typically there are 3 or 4 Newark - Miami or Newark - Orlando flights on which if you get an upgrade or are booked in domestic first class you will actually get international BusinessFirst lie-flat bed seats. The food is only domestic first class, though, which BTW is not bad at all.


----------



## Trogdor (Jun 15, 2011)

fredandgingermad said:


> Another thing to consider between Amtrak and airplane travel, is that while your airplane might get you there in a fraction of the time and cost a couple of hundred dollars less depending on the route, if you're heading on vacation you have to pay for hotels when you get there on top of the airplane travel. I've yet to enjoy travel in a sleeper but if the option was coast to coast on Amtrak in sleeper (3/4 nights on train all meals inc) or a first class plane ticket (7 hours from LAX-JFK?) plus hotel bills on top, i'd much rather take Amtrak every single time


Seems to me the solution to that would be to leave two or three days later if you're flying, but don't want to pay the hotel bills.

Then again, anyone paying for a first-class ticket isn't going to worry about "hotel bills." Let's keep this discussion in the proper perspective here.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm not sure that's a reasonable solution. If I'm going to Disney for a week, I'm going to want to leave home the day that vacation starts. Given the choice between:

1. Take the train, leave Friday after work and arrive on Saturday (assuming that I take a standard work week off) rested and ready to go.

2. Fly, leave Friday after work and pay for an extra night in the hotel.

3. Fly, stay home on Friday, arrive Saturday after having to get up early and get to the airport.

I'm going to choose 1 or 2 every time. It's perfectly reasonable to compare sleeping car fare to flight+hotel (for the time that you're on the train) + meals (for the time that you're on the train.


----------



## fredandgingermad (Jun 15, 2011)

True i guess if you're paying, if you were using points/miles however.. It also depends on why you're going


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 15, 2011)

fredandgingermad said:


> True i guess if you're paying, if you were using points/miles however.. It also depends on why you're going


Even with points you're still paying for your trip. You're just doing it in much smaller increments over a much longer period of time. There are few if any retailers who are willing to swallow a 3-5% service fee just to help you pay for your trip. In order to avoid that they simply raise their prices on _everyone_ to cover the difference. Either way you are the one paying for your trip. The only exception I can think of is if you can get the 32K signup bonus for the AGR MC and get the ball rolling with a pack of gum or something and then never use the card again. In that one case you'd essentially be riding for free.


----------



## dlagrua (Jun 15, 2011)

On the subject of airline first class fares vs. Amtrak sleeper fare, that argument will go on forever. Its a matter of what you feel more comfortable with. Quite frankly I would not take a first class airline fare if they gave it to me for free. I refuse to be lowered to the level of an animal and be subjected to the filthy, unhealthy, crowded, degrading, dehumanizing conditions of air travel.

As for food; I remember when airline food was served and it was all microwaved style TV dinners. Amtrak food is largely fresh prepared. The Crawfish Etoffee that we were served on the Crecent was very good. My wife enjoys the Butchers Cut steaks and she's never had a bad one. Breakfasts are as good (if not better) than any restaurant. The meats and eggs are always cooked properly; French Toast is highly rated by most travelers, although we take along a small bottle of real maple syrup to enhance the taste.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 15, 2011)

Yes and no. It's not like choosing to pay cash or use a different credit card is going to get you a cheaper price most of the time. You're paying for the trip regardless just by going out and shopping.

Yes, there are some places that offer cash discounts, but the merchant agreement that stores have to agree to usually stipulates that if they accept a credit card they have to charge the same price cash or credit.


----------



## amamba (Jun 15, 2011)

I totally agree with Ryan re: using points/credit cards. Most merchants (with the exception of gas stations) charge all customers one price for a given good. I pay that price regardless of if I pay with cash or my AGR MC. Now I do agree that because of bank fees, many merchants have decided to raise the prices by a few percentage points (someone has to pay for it), but all consumers are paying for that whether they pay cash or credit.

So I am not seeing how it is costing me, as a consumer, more money to use my AGR MC and accumulate points that I then redeem for free travel, since I don't carry a balance and pay it off in full each month.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 15, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Yes and no. It's not like choosing to pay cash or use a different credit card is going to get you a cheaper price most of the time. You're paying for the trip regardless just by going out and shopping.


I never intended to dispute the fact that American consumers no longer have any choice in the matter. I simply tried to point out that their 1-2% "free points" kickback was coming from the 3-5% service charge that's built into everything they buy. Which it is. They're still paying for their own trip, whether they realize it or not. It's true that you can find an exception here and there but in general that is how it works. All of which makes me wonder if most Americans would even realize that taxes were still being charged if we simply rolled them into the advertised prices and removed them as a separate entry on the receipt. Then maybe we could award American consumers "freedom points" to redeem for basic services such as trash pickup and street maintenance and opportunistic wars in distant oil-rich lands they've never heard of. When the points run out the war ends. Hey, maybe this idea isn't as bad as it first seemed! :lol:



amamba said:


> So I am not seeing how it is costing me, as a consumer, more money to use my AGR MC and accumulate points that I then redeem for free travel, since I don't carry a balance and pay it off in full each month.


It's not costing you _more_ money per se, but it's still coming straight out of your own pocket. Nobody is paying for your next trip but you.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 15, 2011)

I see your point, but without any way of avoiding paying that fee, it feels like a distinction with no real meaning to me.


----------



## leemell (Jun 15, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Yes and no. It's not like choosing to pay cash or use a different credit card is going to get you a cheaper price most of the time. You're paying for the trip regardless just by going out and shopping.
> 
> Yes, there are some places that offer cash discounts, but the merchant agreement that stores have to agree to usually stipulates that if they accept a credit card they have to charge the same price cash or credit.


Not only in the merchant agreement, but some state laws.


----------



## amamba (Jun 15, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Yes and no. It's not like choosing to pay cash or use a different credit card is going to get you a cheaper price most of the time. You're paying for the trip regardless just by going out and shopping.
> ...


But if the choice is use a card and get a free trip, or pay cash and get nothing, I'll use my AGR MC


----------



## pennyk (Jun 15, 2011)

amamba said:


> But if the choice is use a card and get a free trip, or pay cash and get nothing, I'll use my AGR MC


Ditto


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 15, 2011)

leemell said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The merchant agreement that stores have to agree to usually stipulates that if they accept a credit card they have to charge the same price cash or credit.
> ...


That really puts the lie to who our government is actually representing doesn't it?



pennyk said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > But if the choice is use a card and get a free trip, or pay cash and get nothing, I'll use my AGR MC
> ...


All the more reason for our government to begin insisting that businesses start including taxes in their advertised prices. Then they can manipulate the tax rate just as easily as Visa and Master Card manipulate their credit processing rates and nobody will be the wiser.


----------



## Peter KG6LSE (Jun 15, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I'll take Amtrak chow ANY day over ANY airline slung chow.


ill take AmBurgers ANY day over chips and a half a soda .

peter


----------



## Oldsmoboi (Jun 16, 2011)

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure that's a reasonable solution. If I'm going to Disney for a week, I'm going to want to leave home the day that vacation starts. Given the choice between:
> 
> 1. Take the train, leave Friday after work and arrive on Saturday (assuming that I take a standard work week off) rested and ready to go.
> 
> ...


In this case, the destination is more important to you than the travel. I choose Amtrak when the travel is more important to me than the destination. (or when I have the ability to work from the train and get paid for my time)


----------



## Ryan (Jun 16, 2011)

No, not really. Not sure why you would make that assumption even. My point was that I wouldn't delay the start of my vacation to save money.


----------



## Oldsmoboi (Jun 16, 2011)

Ryan said:


> No, not really. Not sure why you would make that assumption even. My point was that *I wouldn't delay the start of my vacation to save mone*y.


Getting there quick is more important to you than how you get there. That is my point.

I prefer not to be nickeled and dimed, X-rayed, and stuffed like cattle into a flying sardine can whenever possible. I find the quality of that style travel to be very very low and greatly increases my stress level. However my schedule often dictated flying when I travel for work.

When I'm not trying to soak up every single minute in Great Walt Disney World Adventure Land, _how_ I get to my destination is every bit as important as the destination itself. What good is 5 stress free days on the beach if I have to endure two stressful and uncomfortable days getting there and back?


----------



## Big Iron (Jun 16, 2011)

leemell said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Yes and no. It's not like choosing to pay cash or use a different credit card is going to get you a cheaper price most of the time. You're paying for the trip regardless just by going out and shopping.
> ...


Merchants pay more, as a percentage, to accept a card with rewards than for one without. Some merchants will add a "convenience fee" for credit card purchases. My son's college adds this fee when a credit card is used for tuition payments. I thought that might be a good way to stack up some AGR points but not so.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 16, 2011)

Oldsmoboi said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > No, not really. Not sure why you would make that assumption even. My point was that *I wouldn't delay the start of my vacation to save mone*y.
> ...


Then you're mistaken, since one of the options that I said would take was taking the train. I consider riding on the train to be a part of the vacation. It's not getting there quick, it's leaving town quick that's important. I couldn't care less how long it takes me to get there.


----------



## Anderson (Jun 16, 2011)

Big Iron said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


There are cases where I have seriously pondered eating the "convenience fee" for the points on some transactions because of the implied value of well-used points. If the fee was 1%, I would absolutely just eat it; at 3%, it tends to be a shaky proposition...but if I ran the numbers on a planned trip and they worked out, I'd eat it. To put it another way, if I paid $150 for 15000 points, I'd call that a _very_ good deal; at $300 it is an alright deal, while at $450 it becomes shaky. $200 for 20,000 is worthwhile; $400 is alright; and $600 can be dodgy (though if you make sure to book "through" for a decent second leg of a trip, it can be worth it).


----------



## fredandgingermad (Jun 17, 2011)

i'd rather pay 1st class to get to the united states in the first place, riding Amtrak is vacation :lol:


----------



## Ispolkom (Jun 17, 2011)

Anderson said:


> There are cases where I have seriously pondered eating the "convenience fee" for the points on some transactions because of the implied value of well-used points.


Another thing I consider is my actual ability to use points. I have limited vacation, and living in Minnesota, a limited choice of trains to take. So for me it's rarely been worth it to pay convenience fees or even buy AGR points, because I've already got a large supply of AGR points from various Chase boondoggles. (The Chase Continental checking account is especially missed.) For my needs I've founded it useful to diversify my purchasing, using other cards that gain hotel points or cash back. One result is that at Labor Day we have tickets on Southwest Airlines from Minneapolis to Portland, a hotel at Portland, an AGR trip PDX-CHI-NOL, a hotel in New Orleans, then another redemption NOL-CHI-MSP, all paid for by various frequent-traveler programs. Heck, we even have free drink coupons for Southwest.

The main downside is that Mrs. Ispolkom sometimes gets irritated when I tell her to switch credit cards because of some promotion.

And back to the original topic: my mother is riding tonight's #8 from Minot to St. Paul. As I wasn't sure the train would be running, I looked into plane tickets, on the off chance that I could talk Mom into flying. A roundtrip roomette ticket MOT-MSP for 6/17 returning on 6/26 is $590. Expensive, but that's not surprising for a last-minute purchase in high season. The 85 minute flight (in coach) on Delta? $794. I've flown transatlantic for less.


----------



## Peter KG6LSE (Jun 17, 2011)

> When I'm not trying to soak up every single minute in Great Walt Disney World Adventure Land, _how_ I get to my destination is every bit as important as the destination itself. What good is 5 stress free days on the beach if I have to endure two stressful and uncomfortable days getting there and back?


AMEN

I feel the same way

NOW is this was 1992 then I may think towards the plane more but with today's systems I prefer the train .


----------

