# Empire Builder Timekeeping Struggles



## montana mike (Jun 29, 2018)

I have taken the Builder 4 times now over the past two months. Once, the train arrived at our destinations close to on time and 3 times the train was 2 or more hours late. The BNSF track work really appears to be taking its toll on any decent time keeping, especially as the train heads thru MT and ND. #8 currently on the Hi-Line is now over 9 hours late, so it will miss all connections in CHI, again. #7 heading West thru this same area is only doing modestly better. Hopefully the BNSF track work will wrap up by early fall as scheduled, but the damage has been done, as most travelers this summer appear to be experiencing significant delays on their journeys.

I know the track work is very important, but it just seems to me that this summer's efforts have really impacted the Amtrak trains on this route more so than in previous summers. Somewhat ironic, since the weather has been fairly benign along the entire route so far and has not been a factor.


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## Josh M (Jun 29, 2018)

I'm on that super delayed #8 right now. People are very...grumpy. To be fair, though, a large amount of the delay for this particular train was weather-related. We were running about 2-3 hours behind coming out of Glacier yesterday, but then that nasty line of storms blew up in front of us. They put speed restrictions on us through much of eastern Montana and into western North Dakota; the Williston station had no power when we pulled in just after midnight. It only got worse this morning due to all the damage in the eastern part of ND. We sat at Michigan, ND, for over an hour because of the slow downs caused by knocked out signals, crossing gates, and track inspections. So much for my fun final night of vacation in Chicago!


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## west point (Jun 29, 2018)

There may be several factors causing these delays.

1. RR may be worried about early onset of winter causing need to have long day time work windows ? Maybe even night time ?

2. Work areas require stopping or at least slowing trains going thru ?

3. Every end of an existing siding or end of double track requires that that section out of service for new switch installation and proper surfacing. Then slow order until proper settling. Is a pre assembled turn out set(s) available or does have to be stick built ?

4. Worse a new switch on single track to the extension takes track out of service for same reasons as #3.

5. Signal work installing CP for new track.

a. Is equipment available for new signaling ? Bungalows, switch machines, signal poles and lights, wire and conduit.

b. PTC installation or updates due to different

6. Changes in CP locations to increase future fluidity requiring #3,4,5,


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## montana mike (Jun 29, 2018)

Josh M said:


> I'm on that super delayed #8 right now. People are very...grumpy. To be fair, though, a large amount of the delay for this particular train was weather-related. We were running about 2-3 hours behind coming out of Glacier yesterday, but then that nasty line of storms blew up in front of us. They put speed restrictions on us through much of eastern Montana and into western North Dakota; the Williston station had no power when we pulled in just after midnight. It only got worse this morning due to all the damage in the eastern part of ND. We sat at Michigan, ND, for over an hour because of the slow downs caused by knocked out signals, crossing gates, and track inspections. So much for my fun final night of vacation in Chicago!


Wow, gosh, what a mess. It sounds like the weather played even more of a role than the track work in causing the delays. Safety is always paramount.


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## west point (Jun 29, 2018)

Another problem is the early spring thaws that cause uneven track and related slow orders. As the ground settles then slow orders can be lifted.


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## bratkinson (Jun 30, 2018)

When I rode #28 PDX-CHI this past April, there was a substantial stretch of track in ND that had significant standing water on one or both sides, suggesting heavy rains within the past week or so. It was annoying to be gently swaying back and forth at 30mph on what could only be described as 'spongy' track. I think it was nearly 2 hours of slow orders. Then as 'advertised', we went from almost on time (lots of padding into MSP) to 1 hour late leaving LaCrosse, where they held us at the station until we actually were an hour late. CP was had numerous crews at a number of highway crossings working on the gates, etc, and other crews at the start and end of some double track segments until Wisconsin Dells or so. I'm often amused how some passengers get all upset because of slow orders and work zones on the railroad, especially during the summer. I tell them that just like 'fix the roads' time happens in summer, so does 'fix the tracks'. That generally reduces their anger...


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## montana mike (Jul 14, 2018)

We going to be using the EB on a couple of trips in August and while I was hoping the track work and other issues would have at least settled down a bit by then, it appears the timekeeping is now getting so bad that the EB's are turning around in SEA and PDX several hours late many days and this, coupled with the track work, fires and weather delays being experienced along the route, are really taking their toll on any semblance of a schedule. I got a wee bit of a chuckle after reading how interesting the ride was thru parts of Washington and ID during the day going eastbound, since in the past riders almost never saw any of this terrain because the trains went thru these areas at night. Now they are regularly going thru during the daylight hours. I spoke with one of the folks at our local station recently and he said that they are reminding passengers now that the EBs will likely be anywhere from 3 to 8 hours late thru at least September and to not count on making any connections.


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## neroden (Jul 15, 2018)

I guess I was lucky to travel in May: EB ran early in both directions.

Hopefully this trackwork blitz will "stick" and they'll be able to maintain things with routine maintenance rather than having months of delays again.


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## montana mike (Jul 15, 2018)

I wonder what happened to #8, still on the Hi-Line and now running over 11 hours behind schedule? Hopefully that was a "one-off" issue.

My BNSF contacts here in MT have been somewhat surprised at the extent of EB delays this summer. They knew the track work would cause some issues (they were thinking more on the order of a couple of hours each direction), but the extent of the delays on a regular basis has even surprised them, although not quite as bad as several years ago (when I was on EBs that were 12+ hours late several times). The suggestion was made to Amtrak officials that a second train set would be helpful out of SEA and PDX in order to minimize the Eastward bound delays, as was used during the major BNSF problems several years ago, but evidently Amtrak did not have the equipment to employ this time as they did then. Still, more than 2 months of track work to go unfortunately, according to their schedule, so this summer season will have long passed before things get a good deal better. I was also told that next summer will feature a similar work schedule on different sections of tracks on this route. Rats.


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## JayPea (Jul 15, 2018)

A big problem with #8 was that #28 was veeeerrrry late into Spokane for a variety of reasons. 7/27 ran very late the day before into Seattle and Portland, so were delayed by a few hours to begin with. Then near Spokane, a freight had a car with a broken drawbar, resulting in a backlog of freights from Pasco to Spokane. And when delays of this magnitude occur, of course, late trains get later. I will be taking the EB back to Spokane from Chicago in late August; the selfish part of me hopes it's several hours late so that I can get a decent night's sleep rather than schlepping off at Spokane at 0 dark 30 and then having to make the hour's drive home. The practical side of me, however realizes the world doesn't revolve around me (though it should!) so that part of me hopes delays are minimal to non-existent.


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## montana mike (Jul 20, 2018)

I would like to know how Amtrak figures how much time a train can make up once it is late? For example Train 8(19) is now almost 5 hours behind, chugging along thru Western MT, yet when you look at Amtrak's status for arrival in CHI tomorrow, it shows the train arriving 7 minutes early. I have been on dozens and dozens of Builders over the years and I can say with certainty that once a train is 5 hours late there is no chance to make up that much time before arriving in CHI. I will be surprised if it is less than 2.5 or 3 hours behind tomorrow PM.

It would be much more helpful if whatever formula they are using is more reflective of real world conditions rather than some optimum situation where everything perfectly aligns for the Amtrak trains on the Host Railroad's tracks.


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## cpotisch (Jul 20, 2018)

montana mike said:


> I would like to know how Amtrak figures how much time a train can make up once it is late? For example Train 8(19) is now almost 5 hours behind, chugging along thru Western MT, yet when you look at Amtrak's status for arrival in CHI tomorrow, it shows the train arriving 7 minutes early. I have been on dozens and dozens of Builders over the years and I can say with certainty that once a train is 5 hours late there is no chance to make up that much time before arriving in CHI. I will be surprised if it is less than 2.5 or 3 hours behind tomorrow PM.
> 
> It would be much more helpful if whatever formula they are using is more reflective of real world conditions rather than some optimum situation where everything perfectly aligns for the Amtrak trains on the Host Railroad's tracks.


If they "gun it" between stations and spend less dwell time at smoke stops, they can make up a lot of time en route. It's when the train gets caught behind freights, has to restock, has to get a new crew, etc, that delays snowball and they just can't make up the time.


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## railiner (Jul 20, 2018)

Posting a "mark" for a late running train, especially at an intermediate point, has always been a tricky "art". You have to figure the very best amount of time the train can possibly make up. If you don't, and post a more 'realistic' time, and the train does surprise you and make up the time...then you may have to delay its departure, so that those relying on your mark don't end up missing it. As the train gets closer and closer, you can get a more accurate estimate, and revise the time accordingly. But every time you do that, you will be greeted with a chorus of groans, and more flak from angry passenger's who are waiting, and feeling like they are being "nickle and dimed"...

Of course posting the time at the end of the line doesn't matter as much, except for those waiting for their loved ones, who want to be sure to be there when it arrives.


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## pennyk (Jul 20, 2018)

Today's (7/20) Captiol Limited train 30 was held about 50 minutes for a late Empire Builder. The connecting passengers boarded cross platform from track 30 to 28.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 20, 2018)

montana mike said:


> I would like to know how Amtrak figures how much time a train can make up once it is late?


This one of the pitfalls of automation. The status system is largely automated. It is no longer a matter of the agents in the field updating the stations with an eta. It is based upon the "pure" running time of the train versus the position of the train. If the pure running time is within the limits of the recovery time, the status will reflect it.



montana mike said:


> It would be much more helpful if whatever formula they are using is more reflective of real world conditions rather than some optimum situation where everything perfectly aligns for the Amtrak trains on the Host Railroad's tracks.


How would you expect an automated or even a human to provide concrete, advanced real time conditions when the railroad is fluid operation? It's not like the hosts have master schedule available so people monitoring the progress can know "it'll follow this train to here and this trains is scheduled to come out of this yard at this time every day." How will anyone know what the dispatcher will decided to ruin or hold? How do we know how many trains they'll put in front of it or who will take the siding vs hold the main? Maybe everything WILL align and the train will make up time. It has happened. I literally watched a train make up four hours on its run. The whole system is an estimation.


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## montana mike (Jul 21, 2018)

Thanks for the interesting comments all. I fully agree it is indeed a crap shoot the further out in time one makes estimates, but I would hope Amtrak could come up with some formula that does better than the current one. As a frequent Amtrak traveler I have found these estimates to be quite inaccurate. My "gut" feelings, from travel experiences on various Amtrak routes are often closer to the mark. Meanwhile #8 on the Hi-Line this morning is now well over 7 hours behind schedule. And again Amtrak shows them making up all but 3 hours of the tardiness. The way things are going for this train, even if everything went very well the rest of the way, this EB will likely roll into CHI between 5 and 6 hours behind schedule.


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 22, 2018)

8(20) is now almost 12 hours late out of Wolf Point, Montana. That's got to be more than simple track work delays.

jb


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 22, 2018)

John Bobinyec said:


> 8(20) is now almost 12 hours late out of Wolf Point, Montana. That's got to be more than simple track work delays.
> 
> jb


Freight derailment in Montana

http://www.kfyrtv.com/content/news/Train-derailed-near-Bainville-MT-488820541.html


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## montana mike (Jul 22, 2018)

The EB just can't catch a break this summer.


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## merkelman06 (Jul 22, 2018)

Im on 7 (21) we were 35 minutes early into Minot yet will be several hours late departing waiting for the inbound crew off of #8 that will be almost 13 hours late.

We were moved off of the main line onto a side track where we sit waiting on a new rested crew.


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## montana mike (Jul 22, 2018)

Thanks for the update. Meanwhile #7(20), scheduled to arrive in SEA at 10 AM this morning will now not likely arrive until around 6 PM tonight. SEA usually requires about 4 hours to ready and turn the train around so they will be lucky to head back as tonight's #8 about 5 hours late. Too bad Amtrak doesn't have sufficient equipment to have had a second set in SEA and PDX like they did several years ago when BNSF was doing all of the track work on this route. #8, still plugging along the Hi-Line after the BNSF derailment delay, is now over 13 hours behind. Best guess on CHI arrival will likely be 3 or 4 AM. A lot of confused and frustrated tourists at the WFH station the last several days, not much Amtrak could do about the BNSF issues and weather delays though. I'm on the EB going West in a couple of weeks. Maybe things will settle down a bit by then.


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## montana mike (Jul 23, 2018)

Hmmm. 3 of the 4 "Builders" this morning are more than 5 hours behind and continuing to lose time. At some point, and likely soon, Amtrak may have to annul a day's worth of EB's in order to reset the schedule, since the continued delays in arrivals into SEA/PDX are increasing the late departures, which make the entire schedule break down. I guess, given the troubles BNSF has had there is little else Amtrak can do.

:-(


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 23, 2018)

I think they are trying scrounge up equipment for another set, which is difficult with all of the PTC test trains, overhauls, refreshes, shopped equipment and sidelined equipment.. They are cutting cars on a few trains to free things up..


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## jebr (Jul 23, 2018)

I wonder if Amtrak could at least scrape together buses for a few days to reset the schedule in Spokane. Not ideal to have passengers transfer at midnight, but better than consistently late trains or cancelling trains entirely.


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## montana mike (Jul 23, 2018)

Terminating in SPK would at least give the EB's a chance to get back on schedule. Ideally, given the realities of the growing mess on the Hi-Line (my BNSF contacts say the delays are here for at least another couple of months or longer), having a second train set ready to go in SEA/PDX makes sense, but as also stated, finding sufficient equipment as was done in the past, appears to rule this option out. Today's 7/27 now plugging along in WA will likely arrive around 9 hours late at each destination, which means departures late at night (perhaps after 11 PM) from SEA/PDX. Given the ongoing delays on the BNSF tracks due to the overall congestion and track work, heading back eastbound the 8(23) EB could possibly be close to 12 hours late arriving in CHI two days later, putting an on time departure from CHI in jeopardy.


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## MSP_Train_Hopper (Jul 24, 2018)

I was able to catch a video of the 10+ hour late #8 this afternoon as it entered the BNSF Union yard in Minneapolis.

10+ hour late Empire Builder


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## montana mike (Jul 25, 2018)

Looks like when #8/28 gets going on the west coast later today to head on East, it will once again be a late start, due to the very late arrival of today's 27, which is now just under 5 hours behind schedule. This would suggest a long wait for the folks on #8 in SPK, which will likely depart close to on time out of SEA this evening. The late start will keep the losing streak going for the Empire Builder and likely missed connections for any trains in CHI. For the 3 other of the Builders plugging along today, at least things have settled down back to what BNSF had anticipated the delays to be (a couple of hours over the full length of the trip). So perhaps there is the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel (hoping it's not another train!!)


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 25, 2018)

montana mike said:


> Looks like when #8/28 gets going on the west coast later today to head on East, it will once again be a late start, due to the very late arrival of today's 27, which is now just under 5 hours behind schedule.


They estimate 28(25) will depart at 7pm. I don't see how that is possible. Assuming nothing is shopped, I think it'll take 3 hours to turn. I say, 8pm.

What say you, Montana Mike?


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## montana mike (Jul 26, 2018)

It appears that 28 departed PDX about 4 1/2 hours late, which is about how late 27 was when it arrived, since the combined 8/28 departed SPK about that much behind schedule . 8/28 now running about 6 hours behind. We shall see if they can make up any time. BNSF says they will lose about two more hours thru the Hi-Line, so even with the padding in the schedule 8/28(25), will likely roll into CHI about 5 or 6 hours behind schedule, once again missing connections.


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## montana mike (Jul 27, 2018)

Looks like 8(25) is now around 9 hours behind, having lost considerable time running the track work gauntlet on the Hi-Line. 7(25) is not faring very well either heading westbound, now over 3 hours late in SPK.


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## lthanlon (Jul 27, 2018)

I'll be taking #8 from Seattle to Chicago next week and am allowing ample time for anticipated delays. Question: Why do most of the delays occur on eastbound Builders?


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## montana mike (Jul 27, 2018)

I wondered that myself. According to my local BNSF folks in MT, it's a matter of timing when much of the most disruptive work on the track is being done and also how they move their own freights thru the bottle necks as well. The two points where most of the time is being lost, the middle of the Hi-Line (eastern MT and western ND) and thru ID and NW MT are still many weeks away for completing their work, so at least some delays are expected to continue thru September.


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## montana mike (Jul 31, 2018)

It appears that the Hi-Line timekeeping has "settled down" to the expected 2-3 hour delays (especially Eastbound) that were expected for the Empire Builders when BNSF announced another summer of extensive track rehab efforts. My local BNSF folks have reiterated that timekeeping has been effected by not just the "one off" incidents that have occurred (weather, derailments, equipment issues, etc), but an increase in the amount of overall freight traffic as well, which have modestly exceeded the BNSF forecasted traffic (a busy summer for both agricultural and commercial interests). So even without all of the track work my BNSF guys say that the EBs would likely have experienced greater than normal delays this summer anyway.

Well, let's hope the fires in the west don't throw a further monkey wrench into the mix. This year's fire season would appear to last well into the Fall, given the very dry conditions throughout the entire western part of the country.


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## lthanlon (Jul 31, 2018)

I’m taking No. 8 from Seattle to Chicago on Saturday, so I hope things go well. I don’t imagine track work is suspended on weekends?


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## montana mike (Jul 31, 2018)

BNSF is working 7 days a week on the tracks in order to try to finish up by early October. I asked them if the overall traffic load is any lighter on the weekends and the answer was not really, pretty much the same amount of traffic every day. The only planned decreases in traffic occur on major US holidays (eg. Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc...).

Have a great trip!


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## lthanlon (Jul 31, 2018)

Thanks for the info, Mike!

I keep hoping that if the Builder does experience a delay it’s at Shelby. I’ve always wanted to check out Oil City Saloon or Oasis Bar & Casino.

A few years ago No. 8 was running way late and lingered at Shelby for about an hour, so a number of passengers wandered over there.

I didn’t risk doing so, since my SCA said the train could leave at any time and 60 minutes was just a guess.


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## montana mike (Jul 31, 2018)

montana mike said:


> It appears that the Hi-Line timekeeping has "settled down" to the expected 2-3 hour delays (especially Eastbound) that were expected for the Empire Builders when BNSF announced another summer of extensive track rehab efforts. My local BNSF folks have reiterated that timekeeping has been effected by not just the "one off" incidents that have occurred (weather, derailments, equipment issues, etc), but an increase in the amount of overall freight traffic as well, which have modestly exceeded the BNSF forecasted traffic (a busy summer for both agricultural and commercial interests). So even without all of the track work my BNSF guys say that the EBs would likely have experienced greater than normal delays this summer anyway.
> 
> Well, let's hope the fires in the west don't throw a further monkey wrench into the mix. This year's fire season would appear to last well into the Fall, given the very dry conditions throughout the entire western part of the country.


Gosh, I knew I shouldn't have said something. Looks like I just jinxed 7(30). It appears to have sat in MOT for 5 hours. Anyone have any idea what caused this delay?


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## CCC1007 (Aug 1, 2018)

montana mike said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > It appears that the Hi-Line timekeeping has "settled down" to the expected 2-3 hour delays (especially Eastbound) that were expected for the Empire Builders when BNSF announced another summer of extensive track rehab efforts. My local BNSF folks have reiterated that timekeeping has been effected by not just the "one off" incidents that have occurred (weather, derailments, equipment issues, etc), but an increase in the amount of overall freight traffic as well, which have modestly exceeded the BNSF forecasted traffic (a busy summer for both agricultural and commercial interests). So even without all of the track work my BNSF guys say that the EBs would likely have experienced greater than normal delays this summer anyway.
> ...


Crew rest


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## calwatch (Aug 3, 2018)

More bad luck on the Empire Builder. I was scheduled to take 8 (3) out of Spokane to Minneapolis tomorrow, but I'll just have to fly instead. Luckily Spirit has cheap flights from Los Angeles (I was going to meet up with friends on the train but we'll meet in MSP instead). 8(3) and 7(4) have been annulled, and more likely if it takes a few days.

http://www.krtv.com/story/38800242/train-derails-near-cut-bank

_A freight train derailed near Cut Bank on Thursday afternoon._

_James Childress told KRTV that is happened on the east side of the railroad bridge crossing at about 1:30 p.m._

_Childress said that there do not appear to be serious injuries or property damage._

_Childress said in an email: "The tracks are torn up bad and will likely be close for a few days while the tracks are repaired. It looks like one of the cars in the mid section of the train jumped the tracks and the front half of the train is stopped on the other side of the bridge. There was a work crew on that section of the tracks earlier today, but no idea if that was related to the derailment."_

_There is no word yet on the cause of the incident; we are trying to get more details._

_*(UPDATE) *BNSF spokesman Ross Lane says that it happened at about 1:23 p.m._

_Twelve rail cars derailed; they were carrying grain._

_Lane says that there were no injuries or hazardous materials involved._

_The cause of the derailment is being investigated; there is no word yet on when the track will re-open._


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## montana mike (Aug 13, 2018)

Empire Builder Update as of 8/12: We were scheduled to take 8(12) from SEA to WFH, but the Service Disruption on 7/27 (terminating the train in SPK) changed our plans. By the time the EB reached SPK it was well over 7 hours late and had no hope of realistically getting to SEA/PDX to turn around without starting out very late and continuing the mess that has plagued the Empire Builders almost the entire summer. We were not about to wait many hours in the King Street station in SEA to just catch an 8 hour bus to SPK to hop on the EB at 2 AM for a 5 hour trek to WFH, so we cancelled our trip and drove back to Montana (arriving 10 hours before the train was scheduled to arrive anyway.

It appears BNSF is really struggling in getting all of their track work done. Not a good summer for this host railroad on the Hi-Line.

:-((((

aM 8/13: I see that both 7/27 heading to SEA and PDX respectively are running well over 3 hours behind this morning as they chug along in WA and OR. This likely will set up a late departure this evening for the 8/28(13). Hopefully this will not turn into another very late arrival in CHI a few days from now.


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## montana mike (Aug 14, 2018)

AM 8/14: The lateness continues, with #7(12), not yet to SPK at least 4 hours behind. Will Amtrak also terminate this train in SPK again and bus people from SEA/PDX again? Meanwhile 8(13) has already lost over 2 1/2 hours and 8(12) the train that originated in SPK, is over 4 hours behind after going thru the mess on the Hi-Line. I just don't see how Amtrak can keep any semblance of a schedule any more for this train.


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## frequentflyer (Aug 14, 2018)

Looking on the webcams, since when has the Seattle section been running with one locomotive?


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## CCC1007 (Aug 14, 2018)

frequentflyer said:


>


Several years now.


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## montana mike (Aug 14, 2018)

With both 7 and 27 running between 4 and 5 hours late into SEA and PDX respectively today, it looks like another very late start for this evening's 8/28. Interestingly, my local BNSF contact shared with me that Amtrak was informed that delays of 3 hours or more could occur during this maintenance cycle. I know Amtrak added one hour to the schedule heading eastbound, but did not provide another train set for PDX an SEA, which would have at least minimized the likelihood of the very, very late arrivals in CHI by allowing the eastbound EBs to start on schedule. With a likely several hour late departure today from both SEA and PDX, train 8/28 will be lucky to be less than 6 hours behind schedule when it finally pulls into CHI.

:-(


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## frequentflyer (Aug 14, 2018)

CCC1007 said:


>


Thanks, some days I see it with two units.


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 15, 2018)

montana mike said:


> With both 7 and 27 running between 4 and 5 hours late into SEA and PDX respectively today, it looks like another very late start for this evening's 8/28. Interestingly, my local BNSF contact shared with me that Amtrak was informed that delays of 3 hours or more could occur during this maintenance cycle. I know Amtrak added one hour to the schedule heading eastbound, but did not provide another train set for PDX an SEA, which would have at least minimized the likelihood of the very, very late arrivals in CHI by allowing the eastbound EBs to start on schedule. With a likely several hour late departure today from both SEA and PDX, train 8/28 will be lucky to be less than 6 hours behind schedule when it finally pulls into CHI.
> 
> :-(


They were only 2 hours down on the turn. As for extra equipment, where are you getting it from besides other trains? How many other trains must continue to make the sacrifice for this train?


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## montana mike (Aug 15, 2018)

"Only" two hours down. You make it sound like that's really great. That's awful. Given the delays this train will incur over the Hi-Line it is very likely they will be 4-5 hour slate into CHI. For example, #8 currently still in western MN is now over 4 1/2 hours behind. I guess we are all now assuming and accepting that several hours late (or more) is the new normal for this route. :-(( This lack of reasonable timekeeping is making it very difficult for anyone on the EBs to make any connections in CHI.


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## railiner (Aug 15, 2018)

Perhaps, during the summer construction season, Amtrak should take a page out of VIA Rail's book, and flip, or lengthen the EB's schedule...

Not sure how well that would work out, as it's general schedule has been around since the mid-twentieth century, but having reliable timekeeping would be a good thing...

Not to mention the money Amtrak would save, not having to accommodate mis-connect's...


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## jis (Aug 15, 2018)

From a travelers perspective this would simply be suspending guaranteed connections in summer construction season. That will get Amtrak off the hook on accommodating misconnects and the rest would be Que Sera Sera, as it would be anyway even with an extended schedule.


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## cpotisch (Aug 15, 2018)

montana mike said:


> "Only" two hours down. You make it sound like that's really great. That's awful. Given the delays this train will incur over the Hi-Line it is very likely they will be 4-5 hour slate into CHI. For example, #8 currently still in western MN is now over 4 1/2 hours behind. I guess we are all now assuming and accepting that several hours late (or more) is the new normal for this route. :-(( This lack of reasonable timekeeping is making it very difficult for anyone on the EBs to make any connections in CHI.


Even 4-5 hours isn't that much. Though of course my standards for "really late" could be considered kind of high having been on a derailed #98 that finally got to Penn Station 20 hours late.


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## montana mike (Aug 15, 2018)

I too have been on several Amtrak trains that were in excess of 12 hours behind schedule and it is indeed no fun. I was just trying to make the point that connectivity with other trains sort of goes out the window with this train for the foreseeable future. I am booked on an EB later this fall and will be taking the LSL. Hopefully I will be able to make that connection. In the past this was a 5 1/2 hour connection time. No final word if Amtrak will go back to the 3:55 arrival time in CHI after 10/3, when BNSF is supposed to wrap up track work for the summer season, or perhaps they will just leave the extra hour in the schedule?

BTW: It appears #8 scheduled to arrive in CHI today has made up essentially no time on it's trek across the Hi-Line. Now running about 3 1/2 hours late, which by this Summer's standards is actually somewhat better than many of its predecessors.


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## west point (Aug 15, 2018)

montana mike said:


> BTW: It appears #8 scheduled to arrive in CHI today has made up essentially no time on it's trek across the Hi-Line. Now running about 3 1/2 hours late, which by this Summer's standards is actually somewhat better than many of its predecessors.


Trying to be better than the Crescent ?


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## montana mike (Aug 15, 2018)

Maybe I was just lucky for many years, but I took the Empire Builders for many, both East and West bound and on most of the trips the trains were very close to being on schedule. The one time we were very late was because someone drove around a lowered barricade and we hit him going full track speed and it took 8 hours to get moving again. Granted, this was before Warren Buffett took over BNSF, so that may be a factor, but the trains were consistently close to being on time almost every trip I took, and I rode Empire Builders every month for about a decade. C'est La Vie'

AM 8/16: Both Eastbound EB's are very late (one over 6 hours again, the other over 4 hours behind schedule) this morning. Bummer.


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 16, 2018)

montana mike said:


> "Only" two hours down. You make it sound like that's really great. That's awful. .


I'm considering the late arrival of the equipment. With the super late arrival, we're lucky that the train didn't depart its initial terminal much later since a 4 hour late departure would likely compound the delays en route.


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## montana mike (Aug 16, 2018)

That appears to be happening today. 8(15) is now almost 7 hours behind and is still in western MT. Given the usual additional 2-3 hour delays thru the rest of the Hi-Line, this train may pull into CHI very, very late tomorrow night. Meanwhile 7(15) is now over 3 hours behind and has to go thru the heavy construction gauntlet in ID and eastern WA still, and 8(14) arrived in CHI tonight 5 hours behind the already adjusted schedule. Dismal performance every day now. Sad to see this.

AM 8/17: ALL EB's on the route are over 3 hours behind with the one heading east in ND now around 8 hours late. No semblance of keeping to the schedule left now, and according to BNSF the long delays will continue for almost two more months. Yuck. No real option for Amtrak to improve this mess at this point really.


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## montana mike (Aug 17, 2018)

An update from BNSF: It would appear now that given the amount of track and maintenance work still to be completed in 2018 on the Hi-Line, BNSF is expecting the Amtrak EBs on the Hi-Line to incur daily 4-6 hour delays on this route, with the potential for daily of "more than 8 hours" on occasion. I would expect Amtrak is just going to have to accept these protracted delays and the fact that most connections in CHI will be lost (as was the case several years ago when BNSF's track work also caused a similar mess) and that trains originating from PDX and SEA are going to depart several hours after the scheduled time each day due to late arrivals until the BNSF efforts are concluded at some point this Fall (which as I was told today may now stretch a little further into October than originally planned-argh).


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## jebr (Aug 17, 2018)

montana mike said:


> An update from BNSF: It would appear now that given the amount of track and maintenance work still to be completed in 2018 on the Hi-Line, BNSF is expecting the Amtrak EBs on the Hi-Line to incur daily 4-6 hour delays on this route, with the potential for daily of "more than 8 hours" on occasion. I would expect Amtrak is just going to have to accept these protracted delays and the fact that most connections in CHI will be lost (as was the case several years ago when BNSF's track work also caused a similar mess) and that trains originating from PDX and SEA are going to depart several hours after the scheduled time each day due to late arrivals until the BNSF efforts are concluded at some point this Fall (which as I was told today may now stretch a little further into October than originally planned-argh).


Selfishly, I'm hoping Amtrak starts putting together a recurring bus from MSP east to at least let those in Minnesota (at least eastern/southeast Minnesota) and Wisconsin make their connections in Chicago. They're already doing it at least off and on; I got a call today about my trip tomorrow stating that I'll have the option of an on-time bus tomorrow instead of having to wait for the seriously-delayed train.


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## montana mike (Aug 17, 2018)

At least they are doing something. I know riding a bus for many hours does NOT compare to riding the train, but not a lot of other options, unless you can catch a quick flight from MSP to ORD or MDW. I chose to skip my return trip on #8 last week from SEA to WFH (the incoming #7 was running over 8 hours behind and was terminated in SPK). Amtrak gave me the option of being bussed all of the way to SPK, then a short ride on the train to WFH. I decided I didn't want to wait all day in the King street station for a bus. I rented a car at SEATAC (I had just arrived midday from AK) and made it the MT about 10 hours ahead of #8. It's little consolation, but my BNSF contacts say that freight customers have been seeing 12-24 hour longer transit times for their goods most of the summer on this route due to the track work. It's just too bad for Amtrak that BNSF must do the track work in the most heavily booked months for the Empire Builder. But then again, winter's on the Hi-Line are usually not conducive for any track work, other than emergency stuff.


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## spinnaker (Aug 17, 2018)

montana mike said:


> An update from BNSF: It would appear now that given the amount of track and maintenance work still to be completed in 2018 on the Hi-Line, BNSF is expecting the Amtrak EBs on the Hi-Line to incur daily 4-6 hour delays on this route, with the potential for daily of "more than 8 hours" on occasion. I would expect Amtrak is just going to have to accept these protracted delays and the fact that most connections in CHI will be lost (as was the case several years ago when BNSF's track work also caused a similar mess) and that trains originating from PDX and SEA are going to depart several hours after the scheduled time each day due to late arrivals until the BNSF efforts are concluded at some point this Fall (which as I was told today may now stretch a little further into October than originally planned-argh).



Is this work expected to be completed this year? Thinking of taking the EB From Seattle to West Glacier next June. I hope things get back to "normal"


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## shanghaiamtrak (Aug 18, 2018)

so what are they doing with all the passengers who are missing connections to eastbound trains? putting them up in hotels and having them catch the next day's train? Im looking at going from SPK to WAS in the middle of next month and wondering what will happen if miss my connection to the Capitol Limited.


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## greatwestern (Aug 18, 2018)

In response to shanghaiamtrak's question about missing the connection to the Capitol Limited, I can advise what happened when I missed the connection in June this year.

Initially I was offered overnight hotel accommodation with a placement in coach on the next days Capitol (no sleepers available) but I advised them that this would probably mean I would miss my flight back to the UK.

I was then given a coach booking on that evenings Lake Shore Ltd to New York which I made with about 40 minutes to spare (with change required at Albany) and then a Regional service from New York to Washington resulting in me getting into WAS about midnight on the day I was originally due to arrive on the Capitol.

I was also given a voucher refund, part of which I used getting myself on an earlier service than I was booked on from New York to Washington which meant I got there before the Metro system had closed for the night and was able to get to my hotel.


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## montana mike (Aug 18, 2018)

spinnaker said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > An update from BNSF: It would appear now that given the amount of track and maintenance work still to be completed in 2018 on the Hi-Line, BNSF is expecting the Amtrak EBs on the Hi-Line to incur daily 4-6 hour delays on this route, with the potential for daily of "more than 8 hours" on occasion. I would expect Amtrak is just going to have to accept these protracted delays and the fact that most connections in CHI will be lost (as was the case several years ago when BNSF's track work also caused a similar mess) and that trains originating from PDX and SEA are going to depart several hours after the scheduled time each day due to late arrivals until the BNSF efforts are concluded at some point this Fall (which as I was told today may now stretch a little further into October than originally planned-argh).
> ...


Current schedule shows them finishing the work some time in October. More work is slated for next year, BUT it should not be as extensive as this year's effort.


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## cpotisch (Aug 18, 2018)

shanghaiamtrak said:


> so what are they doing with all the passengers who are missing connections to eastbound trains? putting them up in hotels and having them catch the next day's train? Im looking at going from SPK to WAS in the middle of next month and wondering what will happen if miss my connection to the Capitol Limited.


Most likely, yes. If possible, they'll probably try to bus EB passengers whose connections are in jeopardy, to their next train, but if they can't make that work in time, they'll put you up in a hotel and try for the next days' train. As I've said before though, if you think you won't be making your connection, call Amtrak as soon as possible (from the train), and try to make alternative arrangements before everyone else.


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 18, 2018)

montana mike said:


> Current schedule shows them finishing the work some time in October. More work is slated for next year, BUT it should not be as extensive as this year's effort.


Isn't that what they said last year?


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## montana mike (Aug 18, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > Current schedule shows them finishing the work some time in October. More work is slated for next year, BUT it should not be as extensive as this year's effort.
> ...


Good Point. According to the local BNSF folks here in MT a lot of additional track work was added to the schedule this summer. As they pointed out, they will always be doing some maintenance on the tracks, especially in the Summer, but this year has been a busy one for them. As I mentioned earlier their freight customers are being delayed even more than Amtrak and I would expect there may be some unhappy customers from that group as well, but not a lot of alternatives to BNSF in this part of the country if you are moving agricultural items, intermodal, oil or vehicles.


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## west point (Aug 18, 2018)

Montana mike == How mch new track are you aware is going in ? That is extended sidings, connecting sidings, additional CPs etc ?


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## shanghaiamtrak (Aug 18, 2018)

Thanks everyone for the responses to my comment/question. Where are the delays mostly occuring? It appears that there is already a lengthy delay in the train leaving Portland headed east. I assume thats because the incoming train was so late? Why doesnt Amtrak just bus passengers between SEA/PDX and SPK, thereby allowing the train to leave SPK on time? I would think if this delay was occurring everyday, which it seems to be, that that would be the prudent thing to do. Saves more money than so many people missing their connections in chicago. Unless they are busing most of those people from MSP or somewhere to make their connections.


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## montana mike (Aug 18, 2018)

The track work is concentrated in several main areas along the Hi-Line: (1) The Kootenai area which encompasses eastern ID and extreme western MT, (2) the Fallbridge sub in Oregon and (2) the Glasgow Sub in MT and western ND. Having traveled over these areas twice now this summer it appears to be just a lot of what BNSF considers to be "normal maintenance, replacement of switches, lights, ties and track and preventive measures. I did not see any evidence of any new tracks or sidings being constructed as was the case several years ago.

Yes, the late departures from both PDX and SEA, like yesterday for example, are due to the fact that many EBs are losing 4-6 hours of time during their trek to the West and often losing 6-8 hours as they go Eastbound. Amtrak has bussed pax on occasion this summer from SEA/PDX to SPK (they offered to bus me last week for just this reason), but that is not a very good solution, since it makes a mess of people wanting to travel the train from SEA/PDX to intermediate stops before SPK and keep in mind the east bound EBs after leaving SPK are still often losing enough time, even if the train misses the Kootenai track work, to arrive in CHI 4 or more hours late, which would miss all connections except the LSL. No real good answer this year on the current problems. :-(



west point said:


> Montana mike == How mch new track are you aware is going in ? That is extended sidings, connecting sidings, additional CPs etc ?





shanghaiamtrak said:


> Thanks everyone for the responses to my comment/question. Where are the delays mostly occuring? It appears that there is already a lengthy delay in the train leaving Portland headed east. I assume thats because the incoming train was so late? Why doesnt Amtrak just bus passengers between SEA/PDX and SPK, thereby allowing the train to leave SPK on time? I would think if this delay was occurring everyday, which it seems to be, that that would be the prudent thing to do. Saves more money than so many people missing their connections in chicago. Unless they are busing most of those people from MSP or somewhere to make their connections.


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## spinnaker (Aug 18, 2018)

shanghaiamtrak said:


> Thanks everyone for the responses to my comment/question. Where are the delays mostly occuring? It appears that there is already a lengthy delay in the train leaving Portland headed east. I assume thats because the incoming train was so late? Why doesnt Amtrak just bus passengers between SEA/PDX and SPK, thereby allowing the train to leave SPK on time? I would think if this delay was occurring everyday, which it seems to be, that that would be the prudent thing to do. Saves more money than so many people missing their connections in chicago. Unless they are busing most of those people from MSP or somewhere to make their connections.



Or run a train between Portland and Spokne. I would not mind switching trains if Amtrak decided to break them up and just run more trains between cites giving better schedule choices. Spokane's schedule really stinks both ways. But my guess is competition with freight would limit the runs. I also see scheduling issues between trains.

I have several trips planned to Spokane It would be nice to use the train but those arrival and departure times make me think twice.


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## cpotisch (Aug 18, 2018)

shanghaiamtrak said:


> Thanks everyone for the responses to my comment/question. Where are the delays mostly occuring? It appears that there is already a lengthy delay in the train leaving Portland headed east. I assume thats because the incoming train was so late? Why doesnt Amtrak just bus passengers between SEA/PDX and SPK, thereby allowing the train to leave SPK on time? I would think if this delay was occurring everyday, which it seems to be, that that would be the prudent thing to do. Saves more money than so many people missing their connections in chicago. Unless they are busing most of those people from MSP or somewhere to make their connections.


I thought they were bussing some passengers between Spokane and Seattle/Portland, but that's never ideal. Passengers are going to be more angry about taking a bus for a decent chunk of the route than just leaving the station a few hours late. Bustitution often makes a lot of sense for significant one-time delays, in order to let them catch up, but IMHO it isn't a great option for consistent long term delays.


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## west point (Aug 18, 2018)

Why couldn't Amtrak use some of the excess(?) equipment that is at present not being used for Cascades trains ? Run from SEA/PDX to Spokane and pick up persons from very late train #7. Appears that any #7 more than ~ 6 + hours late ?


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## spinnaker (Aug 18, 2018)

west point said:


> Why couldn't Amtrak use some of the excess(?) equipment that is at present not being used for Cascades trains ? Run from SEA/PDX to Spokane and pick up persons from very late train #7. Appears that any #7 more than ~ 6 + hours late ?


I had a similar question above. My guess is scheduling. Amtrak is likely to be able to run one train let alone multiples.


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## amtrakpass (Aug 18, 2018)

My feeling is the real reason for delays is not trackwork. It seems the railroads know that people buy that explanation so they throw that out there every summer. Of course your going to have work areas on the railroad for trackwork. Does that usually cause much for speed restrictions or delays? Somewhat but usually for short distances and that is very rarely the cause of hours long delays on a main line railroad.

The real reason is probably the BNSF trying to get by with not hiring enough train crews and then attempting to run more trains than the line can handle. So then you have trains dying and needing to wait for rested crews.

They must be calculating that it is more profitable to suffer long delays than to build enough track and hire enough people to have a fluid line.

Why the Hi-line has any sections of single track besides a bridge or tunnel here and there is beyond me. With the amount of money Berkshire Hathaway has, the BNSF could hire an army of track workers to lay a new track from Chicago to Seattle in one summer and still have money left over if they really wanted to.

Just my opinion of course. But I feel like the BNSF has been claiming "trackwork" for way too many years now to be justified in delaying the Empire Builder so much that it can not be depended upon for any regular rider.


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## Triley (Aug 18, 2018)

west point said:


> Why couldn't Amtrak use some of the excess(?) equipment that is at present not being used for Cascades trains ? Run from SEA/PDX to Spokane and pick up persons from very late train #7. Appears that any #7 more than ~ 6 + hours late ?


What equipment isn't being used? Every single trainset is in use (there's only 6, with 13 scheduled trains per day if I recall...), which is why trains may be delayed or even cancelled due to mechanical issues, if they're severe enough. There is simply no spare equipment in Seattle. Also, Amtrak doesn't own the equipment, so someone would need to get permission from WDOT and ODOT.
Good luck with that.


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## Triley (Aug 18, 2018)

amtrakpass said:


> My feeling is the real reason for delays is not trackwork. It seems the railroads know that people buy that explanation so they throw that out there every summer. Of course your going to have work areas on the railroad for trackwork. Does that usually cause much for speed restrictions or delays? Somewhat but usually for short distances and that is very rarely the cause of hours long delays on a main line railroad.
> 
> The real reason is probably the BNSF trying to get by with not hiring enough train crews and then attempting to run more trains than the line can handle. So then you have trains dying and needing to wait for rested crews.
> 
> ...


Are you insinuating that BNSF is just doing what they can to delay the EB? I highly doubt it...
With running heavy and long freight trains, damage is going to occur, and will need to be replaced. Have you ever actually watched a work crew? It takes a lot of work and time. And it's not a case of just speed restrictions, but say it turns a double track area in to a single track area, and the next siding or double track area is always 20+ miles away and can only fit one train in it, the EB may be forced to wait 40 miles away from the track work for a single freight to go by before the freight in the next siding can continue moving, then the EB can move to occupy their siding. Then there's the same issue on the other side of the track work. So it turns in to a huge juggling act.

Then say they're doing track work in a single track area. The work required may get to a point where a total shutdown of traffic is required for a short time, quickly causing everything to back up. You did see the post where someone said freight deliveries are being delayed over 24 hours, right? Something that could irritate their customers and drive them to other transposition methods.

Lastly, just because there is money from investors to add another track spanning from Seattle to Chicago, why would the investors approve such a large expenditure when the infrastructure generally works? The investors want to see a profit turned, so they can gain income.


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## cpotisch (Aug 19, 2018)

amtrakpass said:


> My feeling is the real reason for delays is not trackwork. It seems the railroads know that people buy that explanation so they throw that out there every summer. Of course your going to have work areas on the railroad for trackwork. Does that usually cause much for speed restrictions or delays? Somewhat but usually for short distances and that is very rarely the cause of hours long delays on a main line railroad.
> 
> The real reason is probably the BNSF trying to get by with not hiring enough train crews and then attempting to run more trains than the line can handle. So then you have trains dying and needing to wait for rested crews.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't think that there's some BNSF conspiracy to destroy the Builder. It's a very busy freight route, and of course repairs will have to be done. While work is being done or in need of being done, explain how it wouldn't make sense to have restricted speed sections. BNSF doesn't want delays any more than Amtrak. IMO, it would just make absolutely no sense for them to lie and claim that track work is the issue when it's actually just cost cutting and not hiring enough crews or something like that. You do recognize that they have a financial stake in getting their freight to its destination quickly and efficiently, right? So while it's not good for Amtrak to have so many delays, the same applies for them.

I honestly just don't get what you're on about.


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## montana mike (Aug 19, 2018)

I have traveled the Hi-Line route enough this year to see the extensive track work being done. A lot more crews out there that what I have seen in most past summers. Unlike many other areas of the country, the Hi-Line portion of the EB route has a relatively short "maintenance season" due to the severe cold and snow in the winter. I have spoken with BNSF people here in MT this summer and they are not happy campers either with the mess that has occurred. The excessive delays have indeed been caused by BOTH the extra track work and a booming freight business as the demand for BNSF's transportation routes has increased. We see this every day in Whitefish, MT. The BNSF yard here has been full of trains constantly all year. Delaying a several mile long freight train 24 hours can be very costly to them.

Sadly, 8(17) is now approaching 9 hours behind as of late Saturday evening. So the saga continues. Westbound 7(17) is doing better, only about 90 minutes behind (but then again they haven't made it thru the Kootenai section yet).


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## amtrakpass (Aug 19, 2018)

Hi guys, I totally understand everyone is trying to do there best as far as the workers go within the means they have been given. I don't blame any of the workers, dispatchers, track workers etc...

However a passenger train being delayed upwards of of 5 to 10 hours everyday is harmful to real human beings, not just freight company profits.

Are you saying it is impossible for the BNSF to plan ahead sufficiently to have enough capacity to run the Hi-line efficiently and still maintain profitably? Would this have been tolerated year in and year out when the GN ran the Empire Builder or the NP ran their trains? If is tolerated now, perhaps the lack of competition from all the mergers is the real issue.

Don't let your interest and respect for the railroad and it's workers make you unable to think critically of a major corporation's upper management decisions.

Is the yard in Whitefish plugged? Are they adding yard tracks or building a new yard then? Are they letting the yard crews work and promoting a culture of efficient and quick railroading or do they mess with the crews? Do they have enough van drivers so no one has to wait for a ride? Do they have all the crews paperwork and bulletin's ready when they come on duty so there are no delays waiting for something simple? Have they hired enough people so the extra boards are full?

The public should be better served than this.


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## montana mike (Aug 19, 2018)

No doubt BNSF should be doing better. Their own people (at least at the operational level in the "trenches") are frustrated, since the freight delays are costing them $$$ as well. BTW: The WFH yard is slammed much of the time this summer. I haven't seen it this crowded in a long time. No room for expansion though, it's completely surrounded by Whitefish and our area is surrounded by USFS land and GNP. BNSF doesn't own any more land in the area. Crewing has normally not been an issue, although the extensive delays would appear to be causing some scheduling challenges from time to time, just as Amtrak has had similar issues.

It also appears that this year's agricultural movements are above forecasts as well, just adding to the congestion.


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## west point (Aug 19, 2018)

Reports here mention that BNSF is not doing much new track work. The forecasters at BNSF did not anticipate the loads for this year and may not have anticipated 2019 - 2021 traffic. After the drop of traffic in the past BNSF may have decided that capacity was sufficient. When it became apparent that traffic was going to be much higher it may have been too late. Grain and petroleum particularly. BNSF may have ordered the equipment for the work now going on with no additional equipment available for last minute purchase ?.. Cross tie builders not notified early enough to ramp up production so BNSF could stockpile them. The same for rail. ballast, switches, and signal equipment. BTW cross tie production is reported to now be up over last year.

The heavier traffic has increased the million gross ton miles ( MGTM ) on present track especially single track sections. There fore more work has to be scheduled to maintain the track class status.

We believe that the 2019 area work can be predicted by what BNSF orders this coming winter.

Also the 800 pound ape present is getting enough workers to accomplish what is needed. The oil industry problems in getting workers on hi line locations in the past is known. Maybe BNSF cannot release track time to Amtrak because not enough workers to finish MOW jobs before winter ? Already BNSF has announced planned work will not be completed on schedule. Pain now or much pain later in winter ?


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## cpotisch (Aug 19, 2018)

amtrakpass said:


> However a passenger train being delayed upwards of of 5 to 10 hours everyday is harmful to real human beings, not just freight company profits.
> 
> Are you saying it is impossible for the BNSF to plan ahead sufficiently to have enough capacity to run the Hi-line efficiently and still maintain profitably? Would this have been tolerated year in and year out when the GN ran the Empire Builder or the NP ran their trains? If is tolerated now, perhaps the lack of competition from all the mergers is the real issue.


How do you know that BNSF is running the line so much worse than it could? How could "planning ahead" mitigate all of these issues? Who said that it's not bad for the Builder and its passengers to be arriving at their destinations many hours late? BNSF needs to run their freights and Amtrak needs to run the EB. Significant maintenance just has to be done and that's bad for everyone. Once again, if BNSF could run and maintain the line much better, why wouldn't they? As I said, they're business relies on them getting freight to its destination reasonably on time, so they have a financial incentive to run the line as smoothly as possible.


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## montana mike (Aug 19, 2018)

BNSF is a victim of their own success it would appear. All of the points raised by West Point are valid. Especially the workforce issues. BNSF has been aggressively hiring in MT, however, most of the jobs require a good amount of training and then some supervised experience, so the learning curve is a fairly long one. My guess is BNSF did indeed underestimate the growth in the economy and their customers needs (I was told they have actually turned away some new business this summer due to lack of assets themselves), which likely is a significant contributing factor to mess they once again find themselves in. Once decisions on capital improvements and maintenance are made it is hard to change them significantly in the short run.

Frustrating to see 8(17) now over 10 hours late and 7(17) now well over 3 hours behind as it nears SEA. Which likely means another late start for today's 8(19) and a ridiculously late arrival (around 3 AM) for 8(17) in CHI, which is not a great place to wonder around in at that time of the day. The cycle continues. :-((

PS: One of my BNSF folks did mention to me last week that BNSF had suggested that Amtrak set up the additional train set in SEA/PDX a while back earlier this summer as things began to unravel to at least allow for on time departures from those stations, but Amtrak personnel stated that they had no assets to spare for such an effort, so at least people were trying to think of ways to mitigate the delays.


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## amtrakpass (Aug 19, 2018)

Thanks West point and Montana Mike for your educated responses. I learned a lot of good information from your posts.

I do not doubt there are significant challenges and not a lot of easy answers in the short term. I do hope that they will do some better planning in the future to avoid the recurrence of these serious delays.

My long term concern is that since most intermodal and freight is not time sensitive to the hour except for the few hot trains, the delays become accepted as normal and passenger train travel is not reliable to the general public and therefore loses support.

And Amtrak is not innocent for sure.

My main use of this route is between the Twin Cities and Chicago on the CP and I feel if Amtrak really cared, they would be running a substitute stub train to cover that on time, even if it was just a couple coaches.

At the very least if that is not possible, they could ask for funding specifically in the next budget for additional equipment to cover such contingencies on this and other lines.

As far as getting enough people to hire, which I recognize is a challenge, it may be necessary to offer bonuses and payment of lodging and moving expenses for enough people to work. You are going to get people from other parts of the country to work if the money is good enough like when people went up to Alaska years ago to work on the pipeline.

And not just train crews. The amount of time saved and productivity increased by having enough car inspectors, enginehouse people, local track gangs etc...is a lot.

There is reason the railroads used to employ a lot of people. Because it still takes a lot of labor to move trains efficiently, especially when you are trying to climb mountains.

Some of the issue nowadays with corporate America in my opinion is trying to do too much with too few laborers


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## railiner (Aug 19, 2018)

It's not just railroads and other transportation service's that are finding it hard to recruit help these days....just about every line of business is experiencing this boom time for labor...


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## west point (Aug 19, 2018)

As far as getting enough people to hire, which I recognize is a challenge, it may be necessary to offer bonuses and payment of lodging and moving expenses for enough people to work. You are going to get people from other parts of the country to work if the money is good enough like when people went up to Alaska years ago to work on the pipeline.

And not just train crews. The amount of time saved and productivity increased by having enough car inspectors, enginehouse people, local track gangs etc...is a lot.

There is reason the railroads used to employ a lot of people. Because it still takes a lot of labor to move trains efficiently, especially when you are trying to climb mountains.

Many persons including us would not relocate except temporary in the summer no matter how much the bonus. Have no idea what the housing situation is now but it was terrible during the oil boom. Rode past many sub divisions along the Hi Line that were only half built and no work being done toward completion. Some oil workers during the oil boom drove their camper and worked until couldn't stand it any more Quickly sold the camper and left to warmer pastures.


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## montana mike (Aug 20, 2018)

Compounding all of the EB timekeeping troubles this summer may be the new Paola Ridge Fire, in GNP, which is just a few miles from Essex and US 2, which skirts the southern edge of the Park as do the BNSF tracks. Right now the fire is not an immediate threat to the BNSF tracks, BUT, forecasted winds over the next 24 hours may move it in the direction of Essex. Let us all hope and pray that the firefighters are able to keep this new fire from threatening both the town and the BNSF tracks. It is so extremely dry here in NW MT (no measurable rainfall in over 6 weeks), that fires can start very easily and are now most difficult to contain once they get going. A totally miserable summer--second one in a row for us. A good part of the western part of the Park remains closed due to the big Howe Ridge Fire as well. Containment on that much larger fire is not expected until we get our first snow, which usually happens sometime in early November.

:-(


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## montana mike (Aug 23, 2018)

I had a brief, but insightful discussion with a BNSF local today about the Empire Builder woes this summer (which continue, albeit at only 2-3 hour delays now). One thing he shared with me was that even after the current track work schedule is completed in mid to late October, the amount of traffic on the Hi-Line now and their 2019 and beyond forecast is such that he would not be surprised if the EBs were 2-3 hours late on a daily basis arriving in CHI and about 1-2 hours behind arriving in SEA and PDX. His rationale for his comment was two fold, maintenance at the pace that was seen this year is likely to be something that happens for at least several more years and the amount of freight that BNSF is moving through this route has increased by double digits and shows no signs of slowing down. In fact he said the freight traffic would be even higher now, if they had the manpower and equipment to handle it. Evidently more and more long haul TL firms are using BNSF's Intermodal services.

Of course my question back to him was: Has BNSF shared this thought process with Amtrak, and he said there have been discussions about leaving that extra hour "on the books" that was tacked on this Spring as construction got underway, and even the possibility of increasing the total transit time by as much as another 90 minutes. If adopted that would mean the EB would be scheduled to arrive in CHI around 6:30 PM and arrive at its West coast destinations between Noon and 1 PM, perhaps making it difficult for the current departure times to remain in place at both SEA and PDX. The downside of this is, as we have already discussed, this means the Eastbound EB would only be able to connect with the LSL in CHI. Not that #8 has made very many other connections this Summer anyway. I don't think the West bound EBs connect to any LD trains now, so it may not be any big deal there.


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## Maglev (Aug 23, 2018)

montana mike said:


> I don't think the West bound EBs connect to any LD trains now, so it may not be any big deal there.


The Portland section connects with the southbound _Coast Starlight_, but 90 minutes later than its current 10:10 am arrival shouldn't affect connection at 2:25 pm (a 1 pm arrival in Portland starts cutting it a little short).

Another consideration is that it takes about four hours to turn the train (at least the Seattle section that I know of), so if there is less than four hours between arrival and departure, additional train sets would be needed.


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## montana mike (Aug 24, 2018)

Given Amtrak's likely position that they do not have any additional assets to devote to an additional train set for this route, it would be logical to see the departure times at both SEA and PDX adjusted, and therefore the arrival time in CHI further lengthened as well, if they do make the decision to add time to the trip. Of course Amtrak could just leave the schedule "as is" and just about every train will be several hours late, as they have mostly been this Summer. Tough call for them, but the reality of the situation may dictate that they do this.


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## JayPea (Aug 24, 2018)

On #7 right now and left Rugby about an hour late, heading to Spokane. Selfishly I wouldn't mind getting into Spokane several hours late. I have an hour's drive home after that and would like to have had a good sleep rather than having to be rousted out of bed at 0 dark 30.


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## jis (Aug 24, 2018)

montana mike said:


> Given Amtrak's likely position that they do not have any additional assets to devote to an additional train set for this route, it would be logical to see the departure times at both SEA and PDX adjusted, and therefore the arrival time in CHI further lengthened as well, if they do make the decision to add time to the trip. Of course Amtrak could just leave the schedule "as is" and just about every train will be several hours late, as they have mostly been this Summer. Tough call for them, but the reality of the situation may dictate that they do this.


They could then fall back on the old "three or four times a week" thing if enough resources cannot be found for additional consists, which is actually quite likely unless some other Superliner train is dinged - maybe the Southwest Chief? Who knows? Uncertain times.

The Builder has operated down to three times a week in the past, so it is not unprecedented.


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## montana mike (Aug 24, 2018)

I would be saddened to see this happen, given the importance of the Builders to the folks on the Hi-Line, but completely understandable. No matter what Amtrak decides, or doesn't decide, the "heads up" from the BNSF folks that the current schedule is not realistic is something that anyone taking this train must be aware of.

JayPea: Your #7 today is doing about as good as it gets-bravo! You may get your wish, since the Kootenai Sub maintenance work often delays the EB another hour or so.


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## cpotisch (Aug 24, 2018)

montana mike said:


> Given Amtrak's likely position that they do not have any additional assets to devote to an additional train set for this route, it would be logical to see the departure times at both SEA and PDX adjusted, and therefore the arrival time in CHI further lengthened as well, if they do make the decision to add time to the trip. Of course Amtrak could just leave the schedule "as is" and just about every train will be several hours late, as they have mostly been this Summer. Tough call for them, but the reality of the situation may dictate that they do this.


How would this help the issue that the consists are usually arriving late enough that they can't be turned and sent on their return trip in time? Putting more padding in the schedules doesn't change the fact that the EB keeps on arriving at its termini too late to be turned and sent back on schedule.


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## west point (Aug 24, 2018)

The bilder IMHO would not get any equipment from a bustituted SW chief as same number of train sets still would be needed. Now if # of cars reduced ? ?s


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## montana mike (Aug 24, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > Given Amtrak's likely position that they do not have any additional assets to devote to an additional train set for this route, it would be logical to see the departure times at both SEA and PDX adjusted, and therefore the arrival time in CHI further lengthened as well, if they do make the decision to add time to the trip. Of course Amtrak could just leave the schedule "as is" and just about every train will be several hours late, as they have mostly been this Summer. Tough call for them, but the reality of the situation may dictate that they do this.
> ...


Well, of course the starting times would need to be adjusted accordingly to give the yard a chance to turn around the train set, clean the cars, repression them and make sure the new crew is ready to go. Only Amtrak knows how much additional time they would need on this.


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## montana mike (Aug 24, 2018)

west point said:


> The bilder IMHO would not get any equipment from a bustituted SW chief as same number of train sets still would be needed. Now if # of cars reduced ? ?s


Well, that might be a viable option for the EBs for perhaps 8 months out of the year. I have taken this train many, many times and June thru September appear to be the only months (other than right around the holidays in the winter) when the Builders are full. And they are full in the Summer. The problem might be that with the train splitting in SPK which shorter train set takes the hit? PDX only gets one Sleeper to start with and two coaches I believe. Nothing is easy.......


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## cpotisch (Aug 24, 2018)

montana mike said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > montana mike said:
> ...


But just changing the schedules doesn't change the fact that the EB has been arriving too late to turn around in time. If the EB is consistently late enough into its destination that it can't be turned in time for the return trip, what difference would changing the schedules make? They can't just pull an extra couple hours out of thin air.


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## montana mike (Aug 24, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > cpotisch said:
> ...


For example, if they consistently arrive in PDX and SEA 2 hours late, Amtrak would move the scheduled departure time to 6 PM and 6 :40 PM respectively. This then adds 2 hours on top of the 2-3 hours that they already would need to recognize the delays on the Hi-Line to add to the arrival time in CHI. This new schedule would then put #8 into CHI around 9 PM each night. The next day's Westbound EBs don't depart until 2:15 CDT the following day. That gives the Chicago team 17 hours to prepare the EB for the return to the west. Hopefully that should be sufficient time.


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## cpotisch (Aug 24, 2018)

montana mike said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > montana mike said:
> ...


Oh, I see. So the EB doesn't have much time to be turned in SEA/PDX, but has plenty of time do so in CHI. Therefore they could shift the eastbound EB's schedule back a couple hours to give it more time to be turned at its western termini, while still having plenty of time in Chicago?


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## montana mike (Aug 24, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > cpotisch said:
> ...


Yup. One would think 17 hours is sufficient to turn equipment around. That would be the only alternative really if they wanted a schedule that more closely matched what the EB could achieve on that route. The local stationmaster here in WFH thinks that Amtrak will leave the schedule as is and the train will just be chronically late almost every day.


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## jis (Aug 24, 2018)

Perhaps they will need to beef up the LSL a bit if all the eastern connectors from the EB have to go by the LSL.

Meanwhile, here is Fred Frailey's take on it in Trains Magazine:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/08/23/the-empire-builder-dilemma.aspx


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## west point (Aug 24, 2018)

If you make a later departure from SEA / PDX later arrivals at CHI will almost eliminate any chance for preventative maintenance. Its bad enough now in CHI !


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## railiner (Aug 25, 2018)

jis said:


> Perhaps they will need to beef up the LSL a bit if all the eastern connectors from the EB have to go by the LSL.
> 
> Meanwhile, here is Fred Frailey's take on it in Trains Magazine:
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/08/23/the-empire-builder-dilemma.aspx


Read it...interesting point of view. I did find, it surprising at the many anti-Amtrak responses to that article...


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## montana mike (Aug 25, 2018)

Interesting article. Sorry he was on one of the very late EBs this Summer. As Fred stated, and most people don't realize, the significant majority of the track on the Hi-Line is single track. Most of Montana is a single track operation, and that is a long distance. Even with adding about 115 miles of double track and extra sidings 3 years ago in MT and ND BNSF is still faced with a growing freight operation that is at or above capacity much of the year. Sure, one solution is for BNSF to double track hundreds of additional miles, which given the wealth of its owner (Berkshire Hathaway) they likely could afford to do so, but those decisions are way above my pay grade and in the hands of people who are looking at the bottom line for their operation and not Amtrak. I do agree with Fred's comment that the BNSF dispatchers generally seem to do a good job giving the EBs priority throughout this trek, but one can only run so many trains so fast on the fixed assets available to them. As my local BNSF contact said and I shared in an earlier post, if they had the capacity, manpower and equipment in place right now, they could do considerably more business than they are currently handling on this route.

Raising the issue of needed maintenance is a good point. Mechanical things break or need regular planned maintenance and Amtrak does not have the rolling assets in place anymore to lose even a few Superliner cars without something being disrupted. No easy answer here at all, sad to say. I just glanced at tonight's "progress" by the EBs along this route and they are right in line with all of our discussions in their delays. #8(23) is almost 5 hours late and 7(23) is 2 1/2 hours late (with the Kootenai Sub still to go thru). Maybe the answer is running the Empire Builder on less than 7 days schedule after all and realistically set a schedule the EB's can make given the current and likely future realities of this route-gosh I would hate to see that happen, but what alternatives does Amtrak and the riding public have at this point?


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 25, 2018)

Fred's Column is similar to the one he wrote about VIA and CN after I rode the Canadian with he and about 100+ Railroaders from all over North America on their Annual ride on this Route. ( this was in Febuarary of 2015 and the consist was especially Long due to the various Groups riding. Several of the Crew told us they were glad to get the work since they usually were laid off in the Off-Season)

We were about 10 Hours Late getting into Toronto due to Freight Congestion which has since become much worse on Canada's Northern Transcon.


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## Palmetto (Aug 25, 2018)

west point said:


> If you make a later departure from SEA / PDX later arrivals at CHI will almost eliminate any chance for preventative maintenance. Its bad enough now in CHI !


Which explains very clearly why Amtrak needs more equipment.


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## JayPea (Aug 25, 2018)

I got to Spokane "only" two hours late this morning. We were about half an hour late out of Williston, but lost over hour and a half between Williston and Wolf Point. From Wolf Point to Spokane, actually gained 10 minutes or so. The dispatching did a tremendous job of getting us through like they did. In a couple of places where there were three tracks, we whizzed right down the middle, with freights on either side of us. Since it was dark by the time we got to Glacier Park, we (my uncle and I) went to bed early. Got a good night's sleep and was wide awake when it was time to leave the train.


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## montana mike (Aug 25, 2018)

Glad you made it to SPK only 2 hours behind schedule. #8, currently in western MN is not faring as well, running over 7 hours behind.


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## montana mike (Aug 26, 2018)

I just happened to look at when #8 arrived in CHI today-only 9 minutes behind the stretched (ie 1 hour added on for the BNSF track work) schedule. Whoo, Hoo! Hopefully this is a trend. I will ask my BNSF contacts on Monday if the track work is beginning to wrap up as we head into September. I doubt it, but worth an ask.


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## west point (Aug 26, 2018)

Montana Mike --------- What is going to be interesting is what work BNSF has scheduled next summer season. . If most of the work this season was on single track sections and doubling some of those sections in 2019 would mean much less delays in 2019. Now if the same type work sections next summer ? All those plans are subject to traffic forecasts which seemed to be too low this summer ?


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## tim49424 (Aug 26, 2018)

montana mike said:


> I just happened to look at when #8 arrived in CHI today-only 9 minutes behind the stretched (ie 1 hour added on for the BNSF track work) schedule. Whoo, Hoo! Hopefully this is a trend. I will ask my BNSF contacts on Monday if the track work is beginning to wrap up as we head into September. I doubt it, but worth an ask.


I’m hoping for a trend as I will be doing a round trip from CHI-SEA September 25-October 2. I have a connection to make from 8 to 370 (Pere Marquette to Holland, MI) which leaves at 6:30. I’m not holding my breath and am very pessimistic about making it.


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## Palmetto (Aug 27, 2018)

Double tracking between Williston, ND and Havre, and the rest of Havre to Shelby should be a top priority for BNSF if they want a more fluid railroad. Blackfoot, MT to Summit might be more of a challenge because of topography; same for east of Whitefish because of the river. But then you have the Kootenai River Sub to contend with west of Whitefish, and that's going to be real difficult to double. The solution there might be to get the MRL to improve capacity between Sandpoint and Missoula, if that's possible. Their topography isn't much different from BNSF's, though.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 27, 2018)

Looks like all of the current under way Builders ( Mon 8/27)are in the Green Mike!


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## jebr (Aug 27, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Looks like all of the current under way Builders ( Mon 8/27)are in the Green Mike!


The #8 from 8/25 is still in the red, though only an hour and 15 minutes behind schedule out of MSP. Assuming no further major delays, it should only be a few minutes late into Chicago due to the hour of padding in LSE. Might have been able to make up some more time coming into MSP, but looks like it got stuck behind the Northstar commuter train between Elk River and the Northtown Yard in Minneapolis.

I'm wondering if there was simply a drop of traffic/construction work over the weekend, so things got through more easily? I guess we'll have to wait and see what this week brings!


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## montana mike (Aug 27, 2018)

A contributing factor to this weekend's good news was a slow down in the construction effort (some of it due to scheduling, another factor due to materials). The local BNSF guys still say to expect 4-6 more weeks of off and on delays though. I did ask them if any double tracking was in the works for 2019 and they did not have an answer on this. As mentioned in earlier emails, some of the terrain in Western MT and ID can be quite a challenge and very costly to double track. It is somewhat easier to add track on the plains of MT and ND though, but still a costly operation. I will keep pressing them on their long term planning in this regard. I wouldn't hold my breath that any significant additional track is going to be forthcoming soon though.


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## montana mike (Aug 28, 2018)

Does anyone know what happened to both #7 and #8 in Wisconsin today. They went from on time to both having Service Disruptions.


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## jebr (Aug 28, 2018)

The Amtrak Empire Builder Facebook group is reporting potential washed out track near Wisconsin Dells. Sounds like there was also a tornado warning through there not too long ago.


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## west point (Aug 28, 2018)

Montana Mike -- Your information about the slow down due to scheduling and lack of materials goes along with what was said earlier that BNSF could not get all the needed materials at last minute ?


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## tim49424 (Aug 28, 2018)

jebr said:


> The Amtrak Empire Builder Facebook group is reporting potential washed out track near Wisconsin Dells. Sounds like there was also a tornado warning through there not too long ag


I posted this on the facebook group page.

NWS: At 246 PM CDT, a severe thunderstorm capable of producing a tornado

was located 7 miles northeast of Wisconsin Dells, moving east at 35 mph.

They've been going through some awful weather in that area the last few days as this is the second tornado warning in less than 24 hours for WDL. Last night's warning took place after 7 and 8 had passed through.


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## montana mike (Aug 28, 2018)

Good Grief. Another Summer where the EB's can't catch a break. If the reports of a washout in WI are accurate this could really disrupt this route for several days. I see neither train is moving at all.

Meanwhile, the other two Builders are running about 2.5 hours late, but if CP Rail can't fix the reason for the disruption quickly these two trains will also be effected. One would think that once #7 in WI gets going again it will terminate in SPK to try to salvage some sort of semblance of a schedule. I wouldn't be surprised if #8(29) is annulled tomorrow as well.


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 29, 2018)

jebr said:


> The Amtrak Empire Builder Facebook group is reporting potential washed out track near Wisconsin Dells. Sounds like there was also a tornado warning through there not too long ago.


http://www.wkow.com/story/38981009/2018/08/Tuesday/amtrak-service-disrupted-due-to-flooding


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## montana mike (Aug 29, 2018)

Looking at the board this AM all of the EBs appear to be very, very late, with #7 still sitting in WI from yesterday? This is going to take some time to unravel.

:-(


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## jis (Aug 29, 2018)

Both the east and west bound Empire Builder apparently got stranded in Wisconsin due to weather and flooding. The area got almost a foot of rain in a short duration.

https://www.channel3000.com/news/amtrak-400-passengers-stopped-on-rails-for-12-hours-due-to-flooding/787738641

http://www.wkow.com/story/38983742/2018/08/29/storm-damage-causes-passenger-train-to-stop-near-portage#.W4a4j1f3tN8.facebook


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## RalphCT (Aug 29, 2018)

montana mike said:


> Does anyone know what happened to both #7 and #8 in Wisconsin today. They went from on time to both having Service Disruptions.


Both eastbound (8) and westbound (7) Empire Builders were halted in Wisconsin on the Afternoon of 8/28/2018 following heavy rain, flooding and washed out sections of track. As of 5 AM this morning (8/29/2018) both trains were halted. 8 was later allowed to back up to Mauston. CP reported they hoped to have the track opened again by 8 AM CDT.

News article here:

https://www.channel3000.com/news/amtrak-400-passengers-stopped-on-rails-for-12-hours-due-to-flooding/787738641


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## montana mike (Aug 29, 2018)

I see 8(26) will likely pull into CHI just under 24 hours late, with 8(27) just hours behind! Wow. Meanwhile 7(27) is 18 hours late. I cannot see any train leaving from SEA on any sort of schedule today as well, with tomorrow being even worse. Amtrak is showing that today's #7 will only be 3 hours late leaving CHI. I guess they are going to try to turn around the very, very late #8(26) in only a few hours to get it back on the road some time this evening. So sorry for Amtrak on this mess, the EBs were finally settling into a steady and predictable 2-4 hour delay in their schedule when Mother Nature decided to make things even worse.

Meanwhile my BNSF folks are telling me the Hi-Line is so badly clogged with freight traffic that there is no decent solution this year at all and that if the economy keeps improving (and therefore their freight biz) things will be even worse next year. As I mentioned earlier the BNSF yard in WFH is absolutely jammed with trains at all hours now. BNSF had not planned on any major track additions next year, but now some at the railroad are suggesting that this will be needed to prevent a total mess on the Hi-Line. But many of the choke points are in areas (the mountains for example) that will require significant engineering and design effort that could easily take several years to complete. No quick fixes here.


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## cpotisch (Aug 29, 2018)

montana mike said:


> I see 8(26) will likely pull into CHI just under 24 hours late, with 8(27) just hours behind! Wow. Meanwhile 7(27) is 18 hours late. I cannot see any train leaving from SEA on any sort of schedule today as well, with tomorrow being even worse. Amtrak is showing that today's #7 will only be 3 hours late leaving CHI. I guess they are going to try to turn around the very, very late #8(26) in only a few hours to get it back on the road some time this evening. So sorry for Amtrak on this mess, the EBs were finally settling into a steady and predictable 2-4 hour delay in their schedule when Mother Nature decided to make things even worse.
> 
> Meanwhile my BNSF folks are telling me the Hi-Line is so badly clogged with freight traffic that there is no decent solution this year at all and that if the economy keeps improving (and therefore their freight biz) things will be even worse next year. As I mentioned earlier the BNSF yard in WFH is absolutely jammed with trains at all hours now. BNSF had not planned on any major track additions next year, but now some at the railroad are suggesting that this will be needed to prevent a total mess on the Hi-Line. But many of the choke points are in areas (the mountains for example) that will require significant engineering and design effort that could easily take several years to complete. No quick fixes here.


If this whole fiasco continues for much longer and BNSF doesn't do anything about it, could Amtrak have probable cause to sue or anything like that?


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## montana mike (Aug 29, 2018)

As for what just happened on CPR's tracks, that's an "act of God". BNSF is another story entirely, as Amtrak could argue that BNSF should have planned better. But, then again the economy hasn't grown this fast in almost 20 years, which is what BNSF would argue back. BNSF is making a total mess of the Hi-Line route this summer. My local BNSF contacts are absolutely frustrated at how decisions (and sometimes the lack thereof) by senior management have turned what could have been a manageable situation into something that has become a major crisis within the corporation. I was reminded that the "minders" from Berkshire Hathaway are constantly looking over the shoulders of BNSF management and are always looking for ways to cut costs, sometimes without regard to the consequences. This current fiasco may be the result of such "oversight". I can only hope that BH wakes up before the Hi-Line mess grinds to a complete halt.


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## montana mike (Aug 29, 2018)

Today's #7 left CHI almost 5 hours late, so it may be a huge challenge to make it all the way to SEA/PDX without being at least 8 or 9 hours behind schedule, which of course would mean the departing 8/28 train that night would likely leave 4-5 hours late, continuing the saga. Today's 8 departed SEA under 2 hours behind, however, the congestion is substantial on the Hi-Line now and even with great dispatching this train should lose 4+ hours on its trek eastward. Hopefully, even with a late arrival in CHI in a couple days the folks there should be able to turn that trainset around to at least have a decent shot of leaving on time the following day.

Meanwhile, however, the EB currently in MN is now over 21 hours behind, and even if it is turned around in SPK, the eastbound journey will likely begin around 18 hours behind schedule at best. Assuming this train will lose at least 4 hours on the way back East, it will almost surely mean the next day's #7 will likely depart quite late as well, since 8/28 won't arrive until well after the scheduled departure of #7. Argh.


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## montana mike (Aug 30, 2018)

Thursday AM Update: ALL 4 Builders are in major delay status this AM. It will be interesting to watch how Amtrak tries to get this route back to some semblance of a schedule over the coming week. Without any extra train sets, plus the protracted (4-5 hour) delays enroute due to the continuing BNSF issues, this will be quite a challenge.


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## cpotisch (Aug 30, 2018)

montana mike said:


> Thursday AM Update: ALL 4 Builders are in major delay status this AM. It will be interesting to watch how Amtrak tries to get this route back to some semblance of a schedule over the coming week. Without any extra train sets, plus the protracted (4-5 hour) delays enroute due to the continuing BNSF issues, this will be quite a challenge.


There are only four EB consists? I thought it was at least six?


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## jebr (Aug 30, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > Thursday AM Update: ALL 4 Builders are in major delay status this AM. It will be interesting to watch how Amtrak tries to get this route back to some semblance of a schedule over the coming week. Without any extra train sets, plus the protracted (4-5 hour) delays enroute due to the continuing BNSF issues, this will be quite a challenge.
> ...


There's five sets. One's in Chicago right now being turned into this afternoon's outbound 7.


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## cpotisch (Aug 30, 2018)

jebr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > montana mike said:
> ...


How do they only manage with five sets? The Starlight is a 12 hour shorter trip and it needs six.


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## keelhauled (Aug 30, 2018)

Day one, depart Chicago. Day two, in ND/MT. Day three, arrive and turn in Seattle/Portland. Day four, in MT/ND. Day five, arrive Chicago. Turn overnight and start the cycle again on day six.


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## jebr (Aug 30, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > cpotisch said:
> ...


Where did you find out the Starlight has six sets? I'm pretty sure it has four sets; in the era of the daily PPC they had five PPCs, four in rotation (one in each set) and one as a spare.

Each Builder set has a five day rotation:

Day 1: leave Chicago as #7

Day 2: full day as #7

Day 3: morning as #7/#27, rotate in SEA/PDX to #8/#28

Day 4: full day as #8

Day 5: arrive Chicago as #8


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## montana mike (Aug 30, 2018)

Gosh, if the airlines cut things this close with equipment (and I know Amtrak doesn't have a lot of say in how much they do have, given Congressional oversight), fewer flights would be on time. Machines break down, even very reliable machines. I am amazed that Amtrak is able to keep things going as well as they have, given the very tough equipment constraints.

An extra train set would have been very instrumental in helping to restore decent timekeeping on the EB route if it had been available on the West coast, but given the reality as stated in the above messages that wasn't an option.

I see that Amtrak appears to be running 7/27 all the way to SEA/PDX, so shall we assume that today's scheduled departure will be annulled, given the fact that 7/27 will not likely drive at those destinations until around 9 AM tomorrow morning, almost one day behind schedule (gee, just like VIA Rail!!) If #7 behind the very, very late #7 doesn't lose too much more time, both SEA and PDX may have two EB's in station at the same time! I wonder how many times that has occurred?


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## Palmetto (Aug 30, 2018)

The lack of equipment presents problems all over the system. It's the reason why they have to put commuter rail cars into service over the Thanksgiving weekend. But fear not: with the demise of several trains on the horizon, there'll be lots of protect equipment for the remaining trains.


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## montana mike (Aug 30, 2018)

I hope that doesn't happen, but I have been following the SWC problems and I can't see how anyone would take that train, having to use a multi-hour bus bridge in the future. .

Airlines like to keep their fleets up to date and the main carriers have fleets that are often 10 years old or less. Oh, how we wish that would be the case for the Superliners!!!


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## montana mike (Aug 30, 2018)

I was curious as to how the EB's have been doing this Summer (from June thru present). The average arrival delay in CHI for #8 for this entire Summer has been 4 hours and 11 minutes. Interestingly, 4 hours is what my local BNSF guy told me was the expected arrival delay into CHI that was shared with Amtrak officials this Spring. Perhaps maybe pure coincidence, but interesting nevertheless.


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## railiner (Aug 30, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> The lack of equipment presents problems all over the system. It's the reason why they have to put commuter rail cars into service over the Thanksgiving weekend. But fear not: with the demise of several trains on the horizon, there'll be lots of protect equipment for the remaining trains.


Putting commuter cars into service in places like the NEC dates back to early in the last century, when there was an abundance of equipment normally. On the PRR, especially, they were famous for never turning people away with a "sold out" sign, and made an heroic effort to serve all who came over the busiest holiday periods...

True "mass transportation"...


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## jis (Aug 30, 2018)

It is much easier to do that when all your trains are not all reserved though. [emoji57]


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## railiner (Aug 31, 2018)

jis said:


> It is much easier to do that when all your trains are not all reserved though. [emoji57]


That is the point...."all reserved", means you are limiting sales, and turning people away.

Serving all who come...takes much more effort.


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## cpotisch (Aug 31, 2018)

There are disadvantages to having everything be unreserved, though. You can end up with absolutely packed trains with standees, and you can end up with empty trains which cost way more to run than the revenue they're taking in. So it's definitely not a perfect system, even if they put in "much more effort'


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## jis (Aug 31, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> There are disadvantages to having everything be unreserved, though. You can end up with absolutely packed trains with standees, and you can end up with empty trains which cost way more to run than the revenue they're taking in. So it's definitely not a perfect system, even if they put in "much more effort'


Who said anything about everything being unreserved?

Railroads the world over are able to run trains with a mix of reserved and unreserved cars. American ingenuity should be able to manage that in a flash


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## cpotisch (Aug 31, 2018)

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > There are disadvantages to having everything be unreserved, though. You can end up with absolutely packed trains with standees, and you can end up with empty trains which cost way more to run than the revenue they're taking in. So it's definitely not a perfect system, even if they put in "much more effort'
> ...


I was mainly responding to this:



railiner said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > The lack of equipment presents problems all over the system. It's the reason why they have to put commuter rail cars into service over the Thanksgiving weekend. But fear not: with the demise of several trains on the horizon, there'll be lots of protect equipment for the remaining trains.
> ...


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## tim49424 (Aug 31, 2018)

More rain coming this weekend to the areas affected by flooding in Wisconsin.


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## montana mike (Sep 1, 2018)

I saw that as well. I hope we do not have a repeat of last week. Perhaps this next round of heavy rain will not be as severe.


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## ehbowen (Sep 1, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> There are disadvantages to having everything be unreserved, though. You can end up with absolutely packed trains with standees, and you can end up with empty trains which cost way more to run than the revenue they're taking in. So it's definitely not a perfect system, even if they put in "much more effort'


It's true that Pennsy was famous for "getting you there" during World War II's chaos. However, "getting you there" often meant you riding in a rolling wreck which would have been condemned a few years previously or even a converted box car. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a lot of these travelers were among those who said, "Never again!" when transportation options opened back up again after the war.


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## tim49424 (Sep 1, 2018)

montana mike said:


> I saw that as well. I hope we do not have a repeat of last week. Perhaps this next round of heavy rain will not be as severe.



The problem is, it's not going to take nearly as much rain to have a repeat of last week. The rivers are swollen, the ground saturated still, so even a moderate amount will wreak havoc, I'm afraid. This is the latest map from the National Weather Service in Milwaukee.




(The light green are flood warnings, dark green flood watches.)


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## Steve4031 (Sep 13, 2018)

The Empire Builder has been doing better the past few days.


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## jebr (Sep 13, 2018)

Yeah, I've been following it the past few days and it seems to be doing pretty well over the last couple weeks. A fair amount of on-time (or less than an hour late) departures out of MSP for #8 as well, leading to an on-time departure out of LSE with the hour pad for CP track work.

(Of course, it was looking better today until it's been stopped for the past 40 minutes or so attaching private cars. Still should be close to on-time into Chicago thanks to padding.)


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## montana mike (Sep 14, 2018)

My BNSF local contacts say they are winding up track work on certain parts of the Hi-Line, although they point out that more work is still scheduled to be done by mid-october. Also, additional Ag trains will likely come into the mix in October, so the amount of traffic on the Hi-Line will not decrease

But I do agree, running only an hour or so late into both final destinations is much improved over what most of the Summer looked like. I see also that Amtrak will be going back to the "normal 3:55 PM arrival time in CHI after the first week in October. Given the realities of what is still happening on this route I do not think there is much chance that #8/28 can meet that arrival time. But we shall see.


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## tim49424 (Sep 14, 2018)

montana mike said:


> My BNSF local contacts say they are winding up track work on certain parts of the Hi-Line, although they point out that more work is still scheduled to be done by mid-october. Also, additional Ag trains will likely come into the mix in October, so the amount of traffic on the Hi-Line will not decrease
> 
> But I do agree, running only an hour or so late into both final destinations is much improved over what most of the Summer looked like. I see also that Amtrak will be going back to the "normal 3:55 PM arrival time in CHI after the first week in October. Given the realities of what is still happening on this route I do not think there is much chance that #8/28 can meet that arrival time. But we shall see.


Things are looking much, much better in both directions. I'm more optimistic than I was a few weeks ago. I head out on my great Empire Builder excursion a week from Tuesday on #7 departing from CUS and return on October 2, leaving SEA on #8 on the 30th. There's definitely a chance now that I meet my connection back to Michigan, where I thought there was no chance of such not long ago.


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## montana mike (Sep 18, 2018)

Oh, well. Another BNSF Derailment this AM in NW MT and another 8 hour delay for 7/27 getting into SEA and PDX, which will mean a likely 4-5 hour delay in departure tonight from those two terminals, which of course will likely mean a 6-8 hour delay in arrival in CHI two days hence. Sigh.

Is it my imagination or have there been more derailments on the Hi-Line this Summer than normal? We actually had about a week of "normal" delays and even close to on time (with that extra hour built in) performance for the EB. C'est La Vie'


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## west point (Sep 18, 2018)

Another derailment ? Montana any chance it is lack of experience handling trains that may have some of these incidents ?


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## montana mike (Sep 18, 2018)

Gosh, I hope not. The BNSF employees I know in Whitefish (big crew change venue) are long time railroaders who know what they are doing.

Interesting, that when I go onto the BNSF Service Advisory page there is no mention of this issue, yet there was a 7 hour delay in NW Montana, due to a derailment, according to the locals.

Today's #7 arrival in SEA was just under 8 hours late. Amtrak shows a departure just under 4 hours behind schedule. We shall see. That would mean turning the train around in a little over 2 hours!


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## montana mike (Sep 29, 2018)

As of today (9/29) just about all of BNSF's major track work on the Hi-Line is wrapped up for this season (still some work going on in the Kootenai for another couple of weeks though). That does not mean we will see on time Empire Builders though according to my local BNSF contacts. They fully expect up to 2 hour delays to continue along the Hi-Line for the foreseeable future due to heavy traffic on that route. It appears Amtrak will shift back to the "old" arrival time on 10/4 into CHI (3:55PM), which will likely mean average arrival times between 5 and 6 PM each day.


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## Steve4031 (Sep 29, 2018)

I’ll be on 28/8 departing 10/6 from PDX. For some reason 8(28) is not on the status map.


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## tim49424 (Sep 29, 2018)

montana mike said:


> As of today (9/29) just about all of BNSF's major track work on the Hi-Line is wrapped up for this season (still some work going on in the Kootenai for another couple of weeks though). That does not mean we will see on time Empire Builders though according to my local BNSF contacts. They fully expect up to 2 hour delays to continue along the Hi-Line for the foreseeable future due to heavy traffic on that route. It appears Amtrak will shift back to the "old" arrival time on 10/4 into CHI (3:55PM), which will likely mean average arrival times between 5 and 6 PM each day.


I arrived in Seattle on Thursday 8 minutes late. There wasn’t much track work at all throughout the entire route of #7 from Chicago! Here’s hoping for the same success on my return trip on #8 tomorrow!


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## montana mike (Sep 30, 2018)

A most fortunate ride for you-bravo! It's now going to be mostly about the amount of freight traffic and weather on the Hi-Line for this route over the next 6 months, until the next construction/maintenance season begins.


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## montana mike (Oct 1, 2018)

A hiccup this AM, #8, jus outside of MSP is running 3 hours behind after doing very well over the Hi-Line. Apparently some issue in the MSP area.


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## tim49424 (Oct 1, 2018)

montana mike said:


> A hiccup this AM, #8, jus outside of MSP is running 3 hours behind after doing very well over the Hi-Line. Apparently some issue in the MSP area.


Mechanical issue in the engine was the issue on that train.
I’m keeping my fingers crossed for today, we’re 30 minutes late in MSP.

Anyone who wants a photo op, we have a Cascades engine deadheading on this train. If you can’t get out to see our train, I’ve included a picture I took in Havre.


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## tim49424 (Oct 2, 2018)

So much for a timely train into Chicago! We got stuck next to a broken down freight and have to back up to our crew can get them up and running again. Who knows how long this will take as now we’re over two hours behind schedule.


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## montana mike (Oct 2, 2018)

I see the EB lost about 2 hours due to the freight issue south of MSP. You might be able to make up a small portion of that time on the rest of the trip. My guess is 90 to 120 minutes late into CHI this evening.


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## tim49424 (Oct 2, 2018)

My connection is toast. Weird thing is, the first indication that it was, I received an email shortly after departing WDL which included a replacement ticket for tomorrow from Chicago to Holland. I’ve not heard of that happening before. I still have to go to Passenger Services to get the rest of my overnight itinerary but at least I had a good heads up as to what the situation was. This will be my third hotel stay due to a missed connection, one in 2008 due to EB lateness and one in 2015 with a delayed Texas Eagle.


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## montana mike (Oct 2, 2018)

Sounded like a tight connection. Hopefully overnight in a hotel room will be some compensation. I now only try to connect with the LSL, as the other LD trains going East or South just do not allow sufficient time for frequent delays that occur on Eastbound EBs, which appear to be fairly normal. I wonder if the track work on CP Rail is close to wrapping up (they were supposed to be finished after tomorrow). It looks like there is still a lot of congestion on that portion of the route. BNSF continues to say that the 1-2 hour delays on the Hi-Line will continue due to heavy freight traffic throughout most of the winter season.


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## tim49424 (Oct 3, 2018)

I didn’t see any track work on the entire route except a bit west of Glacier.

If we hadn’t been stuck by that broken down freight my connection would’ve easily been made.

I ended up being put up at the South Loop Hotel. It’s kinda crappy and extremely noisy outside even at 11:30 at night but it’s just one night. I probably will upgrade my ticket from coach to business class to utilize the metropolitan lounge and go upstairs and snooze a bit if tired.


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## montana mike (Oct 3, 2018)

According to BNSF the only significant track work still ongoing on their portion of the route was on the Kootenai Sub. Sorry about the hotel stay. I know it is Amtrak's choice on the hotels, but when I stay in Chi-town I try to stay at the Palmer House or the Silver Smith.

Good idea about Biz class, normally worth the extra few bucks.

The EB schedule reverts to the 3:55 PM arrival time in CHI beginning 10/4. CP Rail still has a few items on their docket that are not finished yet. We shall see how well the timekeeping works.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 3, 2018)

Looked like it was snowing up there today.


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## tim49424 (Oct 3, 2018)

montana mike said:


> According to BNSF the only significant track work still ongoing on their portion of the route was on the Kootenai Sub. Sorry about the hotel stay. I know it is Amtrak's choice on the hotels, but when I stay in Chi-town I try to stay at the Palmer House or the Silver Smith.
> 
> Good idea about Biz class, normally worth the extra few bucks.
> 
> The EB schedule reverts to the 3:55 PM arrival time in CHI beginning 10/4. CP Rail still has a few items on their docket that are not finished yet. We shall see how well the timekeeping works.


I think Amtrak may have had a limited choice of hotels because most workers are on strike. The other times I’ve been put up I stayed at the Inn of Chicago (December, 2008) and Swisshotel (November, 2015).

I am now on the train I was supposed to be on last night but it’s not all bad as I’ve gotten to know the conductor who is on this train from riding with him many times in the past.

One thing that may effect timekeeping on the Empire Builder is the enforcement of PTC. I remember hearing announcements throughout my trip from Seattle saying they had to stop the train to fill out PTC paperwork. We were 15 minutes late out of Chicago on this train because of PTC. The PTC requirement went into effect on October 1.


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## montana mike (Oct 4, 2018)

Steve4031 said:


> Looked like it was snowing up there today.


Yup. A couple inches in the Mountains and at Pass level and a dusting in the Valley. Winter is not far behind.


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## montana mike (Oct 4, 2018)

tim49424 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > According to BNSF the only significant track work still ongoing on their portion of the route was on the Kootenai Sub. Sorry about the hotel stay. I know it is Amtrak's choice on the hotels, but when I stay in Chi-town I try to stay at the Palmer House or the Silver Smith.
> ...


It's always about the paperwork for the government!


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## Steve4031 (Oct 4, 2018)

montana mike said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > Looked like it was snowing up there today.
> ...


The snow may be gone by Sunday. I am sure looking forward to this trip though.


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## montana mike (Oct 5, 2018)

The forecast for NW MT for the next several days at least is for below normal temperatures and a chance for showers. Likely some snow above 6000 feet. It looks like things are settling down to the usual 1-2 hour delays for the EBs along the Hi-Line due to freight congestion now, with some of the time made up towards the later part of the trek Eastbound.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 5, 2018)

I’m at school now. Suitcase is packed and in the trunk. After school drive to union station and then Metra to O’Hare transfer. United to Portland. Tomorrow enjoy Portland before boarding 28.


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## Rail Freak (Oct 5, 2018)

Steve4031 said:


> I’m at school now. Suitcase is packed and in the trunk. After school drive to union station and then Metra to O’Hare transfer. United to Portland. Tomorrow enjoy Portland before boarding 28.


Can I fly in to O'Hare & take Metra to Union Station to connect to Amtrak? what does that entail?


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## Steve4031 (Oct 5, 2018)

You have to coordinate with the Antioch line schedule. To get from the airport to ohare transfer you take the airport train to the end of the line and then take a shuttle to ohare transfer.


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## railiner (Oct 6, 2018)

I think I would prefer to ride the CTA and walk the two blocks to Union Station...a 'one seat' ride, more frequent, and perhaps more reliable...perhaps cheaper, too....


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## montana mike (Oct 6, 2018)

railiner said:


> I think I would prefer to ride the CTA and walk the two blocks to Union Station...a 'one seat' ride, more frequent, and perhaps more reliable...perhaps cheaper, too....


That's the way I do it when I fly into O' hare and then connect to Amtrak. It's very easy and convenient.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 6, 2018)

railiner said:


> I think I would prefer to ride the CTA and walk the two blocks to Union Station...a 'one seat' ride, more frequent, and perhaps more reliable...perhaps cheaper, too....


I would skip this option in the future. I tried it out of curiosity. The busses theoretically run every 7 minutes according to a sign. I waited 15 minutes and a bus pulled up. A bunch of passengers got off. The sign on the bus said it was in service and going to ohare-all terminals.

I climbed up the stairs and the driver just looked st me and then stated this bus is out of service in a rude tone. I asked when the next bus would come and he said 10 minutes. I told him to go on and be useless. His sign should have said out of service and he should not have let me climb up the stairs before telling me. I took a Lyft to the airport. I had zero confidence in the reliability of this service.

As I rode off in my Lyft I did see another bus pulling up. I’m not the most patient person and this whole experience reinforces why I hate dealing with busses and shuttles.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 6, 2018)

Steve4031 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > I think I would prefer to ride the CTA and walk the two blocks to Union Station...a 'one seat' ride, more frequent, and perhaps more reliable...perhaps cheaper, too....
> ...


I thought he was referring to the blue line.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 6, 2018)

Railiner was referring to the blue line. I thought I was agreeing with him when I described the difficulties with the ohare transfer shuttle.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 7, 2018)

Running about an hour late into Cut Bank, Montana. Not too bad. Lost most of the time between Spokane and sandpoint


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## cpotisch (Oct 7, 2018)

Steve4031 said:


> Running about an hour late into Cut Bank, Montana. Not too bad. Lost most of the time between Spokane and sandpoint


Does it seem like you'll be making up time?


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## Steve4031 (Oct 7, 2018)

45 minutes late out of Havre. At this point we are. Probably will be on time at Minot.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 7, 2018)

Back to 1 hour 10 late at Glasgow. For past 40 or 50 miles we’ve been going below 79 mph. Some of it may be curved or we are following a freight.


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## montana mike (Oct 8, 2018)

Looks like you arrived about 45 minutes late?


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## Steve4031 (Oct 8, 2018)

montana mike said:


> Looks like you arrived about 45 minutes late?


That’s correct. Got caught in Metra traffic at Western ave. Then a slow run into CUS.

Overall a good trip. It seemed like we followed freights more than waited in sidings. There were times that we were going 60 rather than 79. I may have missed a few meets sleeping.


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## NW cannonball (Oct 14, 2018)

Today, I can say, the westbound EB has been on-time at MSP for most of a week now.

Eastbound I dunno.

Going into winter mode early -- track work over -- only blizzards to slow the train


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## west point (Oct 15, 2018)

NW cannonball said:


> Today, I can say, the westbound EB has been on-time at MSP for most of a week now.
> 
> Eastbound I dunno.
> 
> Going into winter mode early -- track work over -- only blizzards to slow the train


Yes the fine powder of some blizzards will short out the DC traction motors quickly on the P-42s


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## cpotisch (Oct 15, 2018)

west point said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > Today, I can say, the westbound EB has been on-time at MSP for most of a week now.
> ...


Really? Fine snow can quickly short out locomotive motors? How?


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## GBNorman (Oct 15, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Really? Fine snow can quickly short out locomotive motors? How?


Ever wonder why GG-1's had those unsightly vents added?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e8/1c/12/e81c12e4a682ac0b1e527032ec1a1f0e.jpg

Here's why:

https://nyti.ms/2AbSHyA


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## daybeers (Oct 16, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Really? Fine snow can quickly short out locomotive motors? How?
> ...


I believe the NYT article is behind a paywall, as it's an archive.


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## cpotisch (Oct 16, 2018)

daybeers said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> > cpotisch said:
> ...


Yep.


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## GBNorman (Oct 16, 2018)

https://nyti.ms/2AbSHyA

Maybe this will work; otherwise "the Paywall Police" made their collar.


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## AutoTrDvr (Oct 16, 2018)

How big a factor is "freight train prioritization" in re: train delays on these LD routes? When I was riding the Auto Train, that seemed to be the largest factor in any delays encountered (i;e; it was often delayed to give priority to freight trains use the same portion of tracks). There were, of course, other factors (commuter trains were less of factor but still a factor), and I recall once where there was an AMTRAK LD tran ahead of the Auto Train that was involved in a fatal accident (which stopped all traffic along the route).


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## cpotisch (Oct 16, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> https://nyti.ms/2AbSHyA
> 
> Maybe this will work; otherwise "the Paywall Police" made their collar.


Nope. Still doesn’t work.


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## cpotisch (Oct 16, 2018)

AutoTrDvr said:


> How big a factor is "freight train prioritization" in re: train delays on these LD routes? When I was riding the Auto Train, that seemed to be the largest factor in any delays encountered (i;e; it was often delayed to give priority to freight trains use the same portion of tracks). There were, of course, other factors (commuter trains were less of factor but still a factor), and I recall once where there was an AMTRAK LD tran ahead of the Auto Train that was involved in a fatal accident (which stopped all traffic along the route).


It is still very much a *very* big factor. Amtrak trains get stuck behind freights ALL THE TIME. And once a train gets even a little delayed, it often gets sufficiently out of sync with the freight schedules that delays pile up as the train gets stuck behind more and more freights. I think I’m right in saying that freights clogging up the tracks is by far the biggest cause of significantly delayed LD trains.


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## AutoTrDvr (Oct 16, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> AutoTrDvr said:
> 
> 
> > How big a factor is "freight train prioritization" in re: train delays on these LD routes? When I was riding the Auto Train, that seemed to be the largest factor in any delays encountered (i;e; it was often delayed to give priority to freight trains use the same portion of tracks). There were, of course, other factors (commuter trains were less of factor but still a factor), and I recall once where there was an AMTRAK LD tran ahead of the Auto Train that was involved in a fatal accident (which stopped all traffic along the route).
> ...


As I suspected. It seems that most of the train systems familiar to me that are known for being "on time" are those that usually have dedicated trackage (JR Shinkansens, etc.). Not sure if the Euro trains (Thallys, ICE, etc.) have reasonably dedicated trackage or not but....


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## GBNorman (Oct 16, 2018)

Apparently, the Paywall Police have new crime fighting techniques at their disposal. Even Times home delivery customers cannot subvert them.

In essence, the unsightly vents added to the GG-1 fleet (Mr. Lowey must have been aghast) arose after a March 1958 snowstorm when a fine mist of snow passed through the vents as designed for what has been called the most aestheticly pleasing locomotive to be on the rails. The result was electrical components "shorting out" disabling much of the fleet. The immediate remedy was using Diesels on the many LD's as far as Phila and the fix was the raised vents.


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## cpotisch (Oct 16, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> Apparently, the Paywall Police have new crime fighting techniques at their disposal. Even Times home delivery customers cannot subvert them.


Ok, I don't get what you're talking about or referring to. Paywalls have been around for a long time, and it usually isn't easy to get around them. Maybe just link an article that you don't have to pay for next time.


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## montana mike (Oct 16, 2018)

Anyone know what happened to 8(15) today. It was plugging along just fine until right after WFH, now it's running well over 3 hours late and still in MT. I haven't heard anything from my BNSF folks.


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## Aegis (Oct 17, 2018)

I would like to know also...I'm on the #8 next week..


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## montana mike (Oct 17, 2018)

I am currently on 8(16) and the conductor on this train shared with us that the BNSF dispatching for Central and Eastern MT has really been poor lately. We lost about 2 hours to let 3 Z-trains thru this afternoon. Now in ND and apparently back up to track speed, but it was a slow go all afternoon.


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## montana mike (Oct 18, 2018)

montana mike said:


> I am currently on 8(16) and the conductor on this train shared with us that the BNSF dispatching for Central and Eastern MT has really been poor lately. We lost about 2 hours to let 3 Z-trains thru this afternoon. Now in ND and apparently back up to track speed, but it was a slow go all afternoon.


Looks like we will arrive only about 90 minutes late in CHI this evening.


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## montana mike (Oct 21, 2018)

8(19) really got clobbered with the BNSF freight breakdown in Washington. Looks like it will be around 7 hours late pulling into CHI very late tonight.


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## tonijustine (Oct 21, 2018)

montana mike said:


> 8(19) really got clobbered with the BNSF freight breakdown in Washington. Looks like it will be around 7 hours late pulling into CHI very late tonight.


We’ve had some pretty good dispatching, but then we sat outside Havre for an hour and a half waiting “to shuffle freight traffic”. The crew has been good and we sleeper passengers got an extra meal from the menu and the coach got AmStew.


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## montana mike (Oct 21, 2018)

While we never like to arrive at our destination late, the fact that the crew went the extra mile to try to make everyone as comfortable as possible is a big plus. We were pleased to see how positive and friendly everyone on our latest EB journey was last week.

I got the distinct impression that BNSF was doing all they could to ensure their highest priority freights didn't lose any time on their journeys. Both the conductors on our EB and my local BNSF contacts confirmed that this is of great importance to the powers that be at BNSF. Overall, it would appear the EB's are losing, on average, less than 2 hours on their entire trek across the Hi-Line.


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