# Successful intercity trains with no food service



## MARC Rider (May 8, 2022)

I recall reposting something from Alon Levy that was very negative about food service cars:

No Cafe Cars, Please | Pedestrian Observations

That certainly sparked a few comments. But, when you think about it, there are successful intercity trains that don't have food service. We're not talking overnight trains here, just day trains that seem to attract passengers who either don't need to eat on board or are fine with buying something at the station and bringing it with them. Here's my list, perhaps others have some more to add:

The Keystone Service
Hiawatha Service
Piedmont Service (yes, I know, they have a lounge car that has free coffee and winter and also vending machines, but that's it.)
NY - ALB Empire service
Ouigo Classique (France)
Hamburg - Copenhagen service (4 hours + )
Oresund Service (Copenhagen - Gothenburg)
All of Israel Railways
Most of the intercity trains in Japan

Any others?


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## TheCrescent (May 8, 2022)

Basically all Belgian trains except high-speed ones.

The article makes some faulty assumptions: it says that eliminating cafe cars increases seat capacity by 1/7, but admits that passengers state that they will pay 14% more to have food service available.

Even if all available seats were sold, the increased capacity wouldn’t leave the railroad with more revenues; revenues from ticket sales would be about the same with or without a cafe car.

But at least Amtrak fills only a portion of its seats, even on the Northeast Corridor, and lacking food service may result in a fewer ticket sales regardless of the price.

So it’s clear that having food service cars should lead to revenues.


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## west point (May 9, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> The article makes some faulty assumptions: it says that eliminating cafe cars increases seat capacity by 1/7, but admits that passengers state that they will pay 14% more to have food service available.



Correct. Just add another car. OOPS. The passenger car shortage means no 7th or 8th car available.


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## slasher-fun (May 9, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Ouigo Classique (France)


As well as Ouigo Grande Vitesse


MARC Rider said:


> Hamburg - Copenhagen service (4 hours + )


Pretty much all trains in Denmark actually


MARC Rider said:


> Oresund Service (Copenhagen - Gothenburg)


Not only this line, but the whole network


MARC Rider said:


> Any others?


Belgium, Netherlands: every train (except ICE/Eurostar/Thalys high-speed trains)
France: some Intercités lines (especially those that don't serve Paris)
Almost everywhere in Europe: regional trains, and they can sometimes do very long journeys (by European standards).


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## neroden (May 9, 2022)

So Alon isn't saying anything interesting here.

Fundamentally, people need food roughly every 4 hours. So:
(1) If the train trip is less than 4 hours, you don't need to provide food.
(2) If there are station stops long enough for people to buy food and bring it onboard every 4 hours, you don't need to provide food onboard. The Japanese model is to have bento boxes for sale at practically every station.

Once you're running for 8 hours, and have no "hop off, buy a bento box on the platform, hop back on" locations, you need to provide onboard food.

There is a secondary consideration, however. By most reckonings, "cafe style" onboard food is often *profitable* and even covers the cost of hiring an extra staff member and tacking on an extra car. So it may be a desirable service to offer even on routes where it isn't strictly necessary.


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## caravanman (May 9, 2022)

neroden said:


> Once you're running for 8 hours, and have no "hop off, buy a bento box on the platform, hop back on" locations, you need to provide onboard food.


I don't quite understand why passengers can't plan ahead? If we know there is no food service aboard an 8 hour train trip, we bring our own food from home, or buy ready made sandwiches, etc, from a store before boarding?


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## AmtrakBlue (May 9, 2022)

caravanman said:


> I don't quite understand why passengers can't plan ahead? If we know there is no food service aboard an 8 hour train trip, we bring our own food from home, or buy ready made sandwiches, etc, from a store before boarding?


Though I knew there was a cafe car on the Vermonter, which I took a round trip (12 hours each way) on last week, I did bring some of my own food. There's no breakfast items I'm interested in (though I had time to eat breakfast before each departure), so I packed packaged hard boiled eggs and a muffin. I also packed a sandwich I bought from a convenience store in case they ran out of one of my items. I did buy lunch & dinner on the train on the outbound trip.


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## neroden (May 9, 2022)

caravanman said:


> I don't quite understand why passengers can't plan ahead? If we know there is no food service aboard an 8 hour train trip, we bring our own food from home, or buy ready made sandwiches, etc, from a store before boarding?


Refrigeration?!?! Heating?!?!

I mean, sure I CAN bring a cooler and ice packs and an electric warming dish, and -- honestly -- given Amtrak's horrendous food situation -- I DO. But it's ridiculous. Nobody wants to do that.


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## caravanman (May 9, 2022)

neroden said:


> Refrigeration?!?! Heating?!?!
> 
> I mean, sure I CAN bring a cooler and ice packs and an electric warming dish, and -- honestly -- given Amtrak's horrendous food situation -- I DO. But it's ridiculous. Nobody wants to do that.



I think we are talking about an 8 hour train ride, not an expedition through the Sahara desert?
Your response is exactly what puzzles me. Do USA folk honestly need such items to travel for few hours? 
Is your unrefrigerated sandwich unfit to eat after a few hours? 
I like to get a hot meal on a train, but if I know there is no service, the sky does not fall in, I just work around it, and bring something aboard.


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## neroden (May 9, 2022)

Most sandwiches are not safe to eat after 4 hours in a bag without refrigeration. Some ingredients are OK (peanut butter and jam), most are not (lettuce and meat).


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## AmtrakMaineiac (May 9, 2022)

caravanman said:


> I think we are talking about an 8 hour train ride, not an expedition through the Sahara desert?
> Your response is exactly what puzzles me. Do USA folk honestly need such items to travel for few hours?
> Is your unrefrigerated sandwich unfit to eat after a few hours?
> I like to get a hot meal on a train, but if I know there is no service, the sky does not fall in, I just work around it, and bring something aboard.


I guess we are a pampered lot 
I can imagine being on one of those trains in Eastern Europe or the Balkans, 3 graffitied coaches, no food service, you are lucky if it has a working toilet


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## AmtrakBlue (May 9, 2022)

neroden said:


> Most sandwiches are not safe to eat after 4 hours in a bag without refrigeration. Some ingredients are OK (peanut butter and jam), most are not (lettuce and meat).


My chicken salad sandwich (in plastic container from convenience store) was fine in my insulated lunch bag w/small ice pack. I packed it on Sunday morning, put it in the hotel fridge Sunday night and ate it after lunch time on Monday. And you know it had the forbidden "mayo" on it, so.... My hard boiled eggs were fine two days later, as I ate them at home.


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## neroden (May 9, 2022)

Yes, one CAN bring one's own insulated bag and ice pack for refrigeration, as I mentioned.

Many customers do not want to spend their time doing picnic planning. This is why onboard food service is profitable on longer routes.  I used to think this was obvious, but apparently not?

(Same reason sports events can charge "stadium prices" for food even though people CAN bring their own picnics)


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## neroden (May 9, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I guess we are a pampered lot
> I can imagine being on one of those trains in Eastern Europe or the Balkans, 3 graffitied coaches, no food service, you are lucky if it has a working toilet


You should check out the Eastern Europe and Balkans trip reports. A bumpy ride, certainly. But: Food service, toilets, sleeper cars. They may be poor but they understand how the business of railroads works.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 9, 2022)

neroden said:


> Yes, one CAN bring one's own insulated bag and ice pack for refrigeration, as I mentioned.
> 
> Many customers do not want to spend their time doing picnic planning. This is why onboard food service is profitable on longer routes.  I used to think this was obvious, but apparently not?
> 
> (Same reason sports events can charge "stadium prices" for food even though people CAN bring their own picnics)


No different than packing a lunch for work, especially if your work place does not have a fridge for employee lunches. We're talking about day trips, not cross country trips.


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## MARC Rider (May 9, 2022)

neroden said:


> So Alon isn't saying anything interesting here.
> 
> Fundamentally, people need food roughly every 4 hours. So:
> (1) If the train trip is less than 4 hours, you don't need to provide food.
> ...


I think one of the points Alon was making was that the cafe car takes up space that could be filled with seats that generate revenue without the costs of providing the food service. 

I would also think that trips less than 4 hours constitute the vast majority of passenger rail trips, or at least they would be if passenger rail was used optimally as a viable transportation alternative. When you ride the Washington-Boston trains, you can see how the train empties out at New York. Very few people do the 6 -7 hours from Baltimore/Washington to Boston. And most of the stations on the NEC (at least between Washington and New York) have a decent variety of carry on food suitable for a short trip.

On the other hand, apparently the cafe cars do recover their operating costs pretty well, especially if they sell booze. It's the full service dining cars that are a little more problemmatic.


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## jiml (May 9, 2022)

The void on some of the mentioned European routes is filled by more options at stations, including cafes and shops in-station or nearby. The lower frequencies in North America make the viability of such ventures more difficult.


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## TheCrescent (May 9, 2022)

I still think that the original article contains faulty assumptions.

It says that cafe cars should be eliminated and replaced with additional seats. But Amtrak, even in the NEC, has plenty of excess seating on trains; if I recall correctly, its load factor is about 60%.

So eliminating cafe cars wouldn’t result in more seats being sold in most cases; there are already plenty of empty seats. It would result in passengers being willing to pay less for tickets (as per the article) and perhaps fewer ticket sales; some people might choose to drive or fly instead of go on a train without food service.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 9, 2022)

jiml said:


> The void on some of the mentioned European routes is filled by more options at stations, including cafes and shops in-station or nearby. The lower frequencies in North America make the viability of such ventures more difficult.



That’s what I’m thinking as well. Many Stations along the keystone line have little convenience style stores inside them where you can buy coffee and snacks to go. I know Lancaster has one.


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## Steve4031 (May 9, 2022)

Most of the stations in Japan have plenty of food and snack options. In major stations such as Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka, Hiroshima, etc have stands on EACH platform. Some of the limited expresses had a food cart too.


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## jebr (May 9, 2022)

One interesting note that I found is that a food/drink trolley only resulted in a 3% reduction in desired fare (if I'm understanding what the percentages mean correctly.) That makes me think of a couple things:

Would having a cart going through the train at set intervals still be profitable/have similar levels of usage? I could see it cut both ways - there's a convenience of at-your-seat service, but you can't get the food exactly when you want it (you have to wait for the next pass of the cart.) Alternatively you could allow for ordering via the Amtrak app (so the Center of Excellence would have it ready around 2040  )
Could you do it with minimal space on the train? If food was prepared off-board then all that would be needed on-board would be storage space, the carts themselves, and proper heating/refrigeration to keep food at the needed temperatures. Definitely would not require a full train car.
How much do people value having an excuse to take a stretch through the train and go to a car that isn't explicitly designed for passenger seating? Sometimes it's just nice to have variety and something to do to break up a longer trip.
Is having no food service on a shorter trip doable? Sure. But is it _desirable_? I don't think so, and especially when competing against the car in America food service is a key selling point. If I'm hungry on the road, there's probably at least a convenience store within 10 minutes, and often a decent selection of fast food restaurants (and possibly fast casual and/or sit-down) within that same distance. It'd be harder to sell people on the train if it meant that they'd lose that flexibility to grab something to eat - and it's one of the annoying parts of taking long-distance bus journeys.


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## tricia (May 9, 2022)

One problem with needing to bring food onto the train for a day-long trip is that not all passengers start from home. And not all Amtrak stations are located near where one can buy take-out food.


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## rs9 (May 9, 2022)

I think it's a function of trip length and food quality.

For example, the Hiawatha is a 90-minute trip. Most people can/will probably pack a snack. Though I bet people would buy a beer - still, maybe not enough of a financial case to support a cafe car.

For a trip like ALB-NYC, I think the right food offerings would appeal to people. Ditch the pizza and burgers, have pre-made salads and pre-made quality sandwiches and I think people would go for it. Of course, there's a bit of a behavioral change at first of not packing food with you.


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## daybeers (May 9, 2022)

rs9 said:


> Ditch the pizza


The pizza served in the cafe car is sacreligious to New York anyway


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## rs9 (May 9, 2022)

daybeers said:


> The pizza served in the cafe car is sacreligious to New York anyway


I haven't eaten it yet, but by appearances it's sacrilegious to all belief systems and geographies.


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## Metra Electric Rider (May 9, 2022)

Way back in the 80's, NSB (Norwegian State Railways) had trolley service on many LD (and I suppose medium) distance trains, often in addition to a cafe or diner. I'm not sure if they still have that or if it is all at the cafe car now (labor is VERY expensive in Norway). They would have things like chocolate bars, sandwiches, etc. available from the trolley iirc (it _has _been a long time!).


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## MARC Rider (May 9, 2022)

This is what I carried on during a trip last year:



Lunch on the Pennsylvanian. (Yeah, I know it has a cafe car, but I packed my own, as last year the cafe car offerings were sparse.)
The Sabra Hummus costs half as much at the grocery store as it does on the train. The pretzels and Coke were courtesy of the Metropolitan Lounge in Philly.



Lunch on the Capitol Limited the next day. I had an insulated lunchbox and a chill pack, but the chill pack melted by the time I got to Pittsburgh. Fortunately, my hotel in Pittsburgh had a fridge, so I was able to chill (but not freeze the chill pack) overnight, but I woke before 5, so this stuff was sitting until a bit after noon.



Lunch on the Lakeshore Limited. The drink was a business class freebie, the pretzels came from the Metropolitan Lounge in Boston, but I could have bought them at the station. The corned beef sandwich came from Susan's Deli, across the street from South Station. I bought it at about 11:00 AM and held it unrefrigerated until I ate it about 1 or 1:30 PM. I didn't get sick.




This was my breakfast on the Capitol Limited out of Pittsburgh. Too bad there aren't any Dunkin Donuts or McDonald's or anything anywhere near the Pittsburgh Amshack that's open at 4:40 AM. Note that the lounge attendant comped me a leftover salad and a dessert from unused flex meals. Apparently, there were a couple of western trains the previous day that didn't make their connections to the Capitol, so there was a light load in the sleepers. Of course, a train like the Capitol needs food service, but for those of us traveling from Pittsburgh to points east, it might be possible to do without quite well, if there was anywhere to buy food around the Pittsburgh station.


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## Eric S (May 9, 2022)

There used to be cart service on the Hiawatha some number of years ago. (Looks like it's been gone almost 10 years now.) When cart service was cut/removed, it was said that it required something like $230,000 per year in subsidies. I really wish we could get a breakdown of those costs (and revenues), though, to see if there might be other routes where such a service would come closer to breaking even.


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## joelkfla (May 9, 2022)

Brightline in FL has cart service with basic snacks and drinks, including alcohol. It's included in their Premium Service, pay per item in their Smart Service (economy). They did have a "charcuterie" tray available a couple of years ago; I think I heard that's no longer offered. Premium Service also includes a somewhat more extensive selection of snacks and drinks in the boarding lounge; I don't think there's anything to prevent grabbing a few items and bringing them on the train.

But at this point, the full length of their line is just 1 hour. We will see if they increase their offerings when Orlando service commences, which they're projecting at 3 hours end-to-end.


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## Mailliw (May 9, 2022)

Since Brightline owns and operates it's own train stations it's easy for the stations have decent food options available. That's usually not the case with Amtrak, especially outside the NEC.


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## caravanman (May 9, 2022)

I am a fan of Indian train rides, and there are many options for the hungry traveller there.
One can buy from vendors at many stations, as well as from unofficial vendors walking through the trains selling snacks.
The longer distance trains do not have a restaurant car, but a pantry car, where meals are prepared and served on a tray to your seat.




A typical train meal with a curry, lentil dal, lime pickle, chapattis rice and curd will cost around £1.20, $1.50




Pantry car above, these are often run as private enterprise franchises these days.

There are also "apps" that passengers use to get food delivered at a station stop further down the line.


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## Metra Electric Rider (May 9, 2022)

caravanman said:


> I am a fan of Indian train rides, and there are many options for the hungry traveller there.
> One can buy from vendors at many stations, as well as from unofficial vendors walking through the trains selling snacks.
> The longer distance trains do not have a restaurant car, but a pantry car, where meals are prepared and served on a tray to your seat.
> 
> ...


Looks Yummy!


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## jis (May 9, 2022)

In India the general philosophy is to include a Pantry Car on trains that may not have adequate number of long enough stops frequently enough to provide an opportunity to get food from shore based facilities with some level of certainty. 

Regional stopping train do not have any food service cars even though their total run may stretch out to 12 or 14 hours even, because most reasonable stations, which come frequently enough, have adequate availability of food vendors, and of course the ubiquitous Chaiwallas (Tea vendor) and Chanachurwallas (miscellaneous Fritters vendors) are everywhere. The call of "Chai! Chai Garam!" still rings in my ears! And probably does in @caravanman's too!


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## Mailliw (May 9, 2022)

It's amazing what's possible when train travel is a popular mainstream option.


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## fdaley (May 9, 2022)

There are differences in what people will tolerate depending on their age, physical abilities, whether they're traveling with children and so on. 

If I'm traveling alone from Albany to New York for the day, I've learned over the past 15 years where to pick up my coffee, pastry and newspaper in the morning and where I can get good take-out fare to carry aboard at New York for the trip home. 

But for one of our summertime family trips from Pennsylvania to Maine, with one person in a wheelchair and enough luggage for a week's stay, the last thing I'd want is to have to plan and pack a picnic meal and have an extra cooler to schlep between stations in Boston. If the Downeaster stopped offering cafe service on the three-hour run from Boston to Freeport -- which would theoretically fall within the "people only need to eat every four hours" standard for not needing food service -- that would probably be the thing that would convince us to just drive the whole way and find food en route.


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## Cal (May 9, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> It says that cafe cars should be eliminated and replaced with additional seats. But Amtrak, even in the NEC, has plenty of excess seating on trains; if I recall correctly, its load factor is about 60%.


Curious where you are getting your numbers.


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## TheCrescent (May 9, 2022)

Cal said:


> Curious where you are getting your numbers.


It was from an Amtrak publication. I’ll see if I can find it but googling “Amtrak load factor” may retrieve it.


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## jis (May 9, 2022)

Unfortunately load factor does not say anything about seat occupancy on the busiest segment of a run. We have discussed this many times but it seems to not get internalized by all somehow.


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## Palmland (May 9, 2022)

On a short trip beverages are more important to me than food - coffee in the morning, a beer in the afternoon. Many years ago I was on the Hiawatha Service that had a rolling cart which was perfect for that train. But if it’s a longer trip, 4-5 hours, something more is needed. I think this is a good suggestion:



rs9 said:


> Ditch the pizza and burgers, have pre-made salads and pre-made quality sandwiches and I think people would go for it



On our road trips we’ve found the better gas/convenience stores like QT or Sheetz are a time saver and have better food than burger places.


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## TheCrescent (May 9, 2022)

jis said:


> Unfortunately load factor does not say anything about seat occupancy on the busiest segment of a run. We have discussed this many times but it seems to not get internalized by all somehow.


The Crescent is certainly a train that is sold out on part of its route and has lots of extra capacity on another part. I’d assume that NY-Boston trains sell the most seats between NY and Philadelphia or Washington.

But my point is the same: getting rid of food service will result in fewer tickets sold and a lower price per ticket, which will outdo any additional numbers of tickets sold.


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## jamess (May 10, 2022)

neroden said:


> (1) If the train trip is less than 4 hours, you don't need to provide food.



But the entire trip might be longer, with no food available at the transfer point. IE, someone night take a 90 minute bus from Oakhurst to Fresno Amtrak, board the train, ride two hours to Bakersfield, board the Amtrak bus, and ride 2 hours to LA.

Theyre "only" on the train for 2 hours - but thats where they will need the food and restrooms.


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## fdaley (May 10, 2022)

Palmland said:


> On our road trips we’ve found the better gas/convenience stores like QT or Sheetz are a time saver and have better food than burger places.



And this is what the train needs to be able to compete with -- and ideally, do better than. One of the great advantages of train travel to me has always been the ability to order food and consume it on board while in motion. By comparison, getting takeout while stopping to refuel at Sheetz might mean your car trip is at a standstill for 15-20 minutes, while a full meal at Applebee's or the like might consume 60-90 minutes. When the Lake Shore and Crescent still had real dining service, one could have a full dinner while traveling from Albany to Rochester or from Washington to Lynchburg -- a wonderfully efficient use of time for a meal that would make the comparable car trip ridiculously long.


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## caravanman (May 10, 2022)

jamess said:


> But the entire trip might be longer, with no food available at the transfer point. IE, someone night take a 90 minute bus from Oakhurst to Fresno Amtrak, board the train, ride two hours to Bakersfield, board the Amtrak bus, and ride 2 hours to LA.
> Theyre "only" on the train for 2 hours - but thats where they will need the food and restrooms.



Thankfully, there is a 7-11 convenience store within a few feet of Fresno Amtrak station...


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## Joe from PA (May 10, 2022)

When we travel the 5-6 hour trip from Philadelphia to Boston, my wife and I actually look forward to the cafe car cheeseburger or Hebrew National hot dog. I'm trying to think of what we might take to eat if no on-board food? Probably a soft pretzel for her, and peanut M&Ms for me.


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## jimdex (May 10, 2022)

neroden said:


> By most reckonings, "cafe style" onboard food is often *profitable* and even covers the cost of hiring an extra staff member and tacking on an extra car. S


Can anybody point us to any published figures that would support this?


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## toddinde (May 10, 2022)

Having lived in Europe, it’s impossible to compare. Most stations have a newsstand that sells food, snacks and drinks of all kinds. Even platforms have vending machines on them. Very few US stations, except the very large ones, have any kind of take away food service while that’s nearly universal in Europe. Trying to create that in the US would be very challenging. One idea would be to provide free space to a food vendor that maintained certain standards. This might also bring traffic to the station. The trains are more important than food service, but it would be very hard not to have cafe cars on most trains.


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## cirdan (May 10, 2022)

Most British trains no longer have restaurant or cafe cars these days, but on many longer routes, especially intercity routes out of London, first class passengers are served warm or cold meals at their seats.


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## jis (May 10, 2022)

cirdan said:


> Most British trains no longer have restaurant or cafe cars these days, but on many longer routes, especially intercity routes out of London, first class passengers are served warm or cold meals at their seats.


And many have Trolley Service in Standard Class.


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## neroden (May 12, 2022)

tricia said:


> One problem with needing to bring food onto the train for a day-long trip is that not all passengers start from home. And not all Amtrak stations are located near where one can buy take-out food.


Yes, this has been a particular pain in the neck for me when departing from Chicago or LA.

Getting the food is one thing, but getting the refrigeration materials when starting from a hotel is another. :-( Usually ends up being loose ice, which is wet and drippy.


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## neroden (May 12, 2022)

rs9 said:


> I think it's a function of trip length and food quality.
> 
> For example, the Hiawatha is a 90-minute trip. Most people can/will probably pack a snack. Though I bet people would buy a beer - still, maybe not enough of a financial case to support a cafe car.


Yeah, with food at both ends I wouldn't want or need onboard food on the Hiawatha.

The Indian Railways model seems pretty nice to me.

Boardman testified to Congress that the cafe cars on Amtrak were all profitable, so I'm not inclined to doubt him.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (May 14, 2022)

I notice that Irish Rail (IE) has yet to resume catering on its trains post COVID as a result of its previous vendor backing out. Other than the Enterprise service to Belfast which was under a different contract.

Given the short duration of train trips in Ireland I suspect this is not a big issue, especially if food is available at or near stations.


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## Willbridge (May 20, 2022)

The 4-hour PDX<>SEA Great Northern pool train had a train sales agent rolling down the aisles. The Northern Pacific and Union Pacific had economy diners in their pool trains, but they carried more connecting long-distance passengers. Some Canadian trains were met by catering trucks, but that requires trains that run on time. On the Fargo <> Winnipeg NP train, the conductor took orders for box lunches that were delivered to the train in Grand Forks.

The GN Pool train with a business car on the end.


The dwell mid-route on the E&N was long enough to purchase food.


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