# Yikes, Amtrak can cancel reservations without notice?



## wayman (Dec 27, 2009)

The very short version: Amtrak canceled a reservation on me, without notifying me, due to a policy I have never heard of before which Customer Service described in detail and would not back down on. Perhaps Amtrak is correct on this, but the way in which they handled the situation was very, very poor in my opinion. This is long, but I want to include every detail. Read on...

Here's the situation: a couple weeks ago, I made three separate reservations as follows:

176, LYH-WAS (arrives WAS at 11:20 am)

2164, WAS-NYP (departs WAS at 12:00 noon, arrives NYP at 2:54 pm)

2168, WAS-NYP (departs WAS at 2:00 pm, arrives NYP at 4:54 pm)

The thought being (1) I need 600 AGR Rail Points, so my best plan was to take 176 only as far as Washington, then transfer to an Acela for the 500 point city-pair; (2) I need arrive in New York by 5:00 pm Monday, and earlier is better, to get where I'm going; (3) while 40 minutes is "cutting it close" in some situations, the odds of making the noon Acela in this particular situation were reasonably good, barring weather disaster, since 176 originates in LYH; (4) but if I didn't make it in time for the noon Acela, I wanted to be booked on the fallback 2:00 pm Acela while it was still $133 (rather than getting to WAS too late for the early train and having to re-book at a potentially much higher fare).

Anyhow, the relevant detail here, for Amtrak, is: _I made two reservations in such a way as it was impossible to take both trains_.

Now, as an aside, I've done similar things before -- booking multiple itineraries, far in advance, uncertain of which will work out best for me. It's possible I've never done this in such a way as the multiple itineraries _actually overlapped_ making it impossible to "be in two places at once" -- while I know I've booked multiple return trips from LYH to PHL on consecutive days, far in advance when I had no idea what constraints would be on my trip, those never overlap (being only a six-hour trip).

But I'm pretty sure I've also done this for longer LD itineraries -- booking consecutive days for overnight trains. And I'm pretty certain many people here have done this, in order to lock in a low fare long before you know what date you can actually travel. _Maybe I'm wrong about this?_ If you've done this, please reply with details. I'm curious to know what other people's experiences are.

Now, back to the story. Today I looked up my reservations at amtrak.com. Yes, within the one-day full-refund-to-credit-card cancellation window, but since I travel all the time I was fine with rolling an unused ticket into a voucher, whichever one went unused. And, as said before, I couldn't know which would be unused until getting to WAS (either in time for the noon train, or not).

I saw my reservations on "My Account", all displayed as intact reservations. I wanted to check the arrival times into New York. I clicked on "Tripfolio" for the noon Acela, and amtrak.com displayed an error message. I didn't write down the error message, unfortunately. I clicked the back button on my browser. I then tried clicking on "View/Edit", and amtrak.com displayed an error message. Possibly the same one, but again I didn't write it down. I clicked the back button on my browser. And this time, the "My Account" page had changed: that reservation was now displayed as "canceled".

My initial assumption was that the website hiccuped and canceled the reservation in the course of its errors.

I phoned 1-800-USA-RAIL, asked for an agent, and was routed to a reservations agent "S"; I can give agent names to Amtrak Customer Relations should I contact them, but figured I would use initials here. And I should mention that both agents I spoke with, "S" and "MD", were courteous and clear and, while not "helpful" per se in that they could not resolve this situation to my liking or adequately explain the way in which Amtrak acted in this situation, at least acknowledged that things could have been handled better; I want to be absolutely clear that _I don't fault these agents at all in this situation -- it's Amtrak's policies, unclear choices of when and how to enforce them, and lack of due diligence in communicating those policies and enforcement actions, which I fault_.

S confirmed that the noon Acela reservation had indeed been canceled -- by Amtrak. Moreover, it was not possible to rebook it at the fare I had originally booked it at ($133) -- I was quoted $207. And moreover, if I wanted to rebook the noon Acela, at the higher price, I would have to cancel the 2:00 pm Acela reservation before doing so. She said this was a hard-and-fast reservations policy. I explained that this was not something I had ever experienced before; more importantly, it was not something which amtrak.com mentioned at any point in the reservations process -- either by forbidding the second reservation from being made or by displaying a warning message that there was a conflict; and most importantly, that Amtrak should never cancel a customer's reservation without contacting the customer, and that as such I wanted the reservation restored at the original fare (and did not wish to cancel the 2:00 pm). I explained why I had made both reservations, and S understood and was sympathetic with my situation and reasons, but said she was not able to do what I asked. She offered to transfer me to a Customer Service agent, and I stayed on the line while she set up a call-transfer.

After a short wait (and again, I want to emphasize that the phone agents handled this call very well -- the wait times were short and reasonable and the agents were courteous, and given what a crazy mess it must be right now at their call center -- with the ongoing weather problems and train cancellations, I was impressed by this), S returned and transferred my call to "MD", a customer Service agent.

I explained my situation to him, and asked him a few questions so I could better understand details S had not been able to give me.

First, I asked whether Amtrak had ever tried to contact me, between the time I made the "double-booked" reservation (December 8th (the noon train); I'd booked the 2:00 pm train two days earlier, on December 6th) and at whatever point they canceled the reservation. His answer: we called you on December 22nd. I asked: do you have a record of speaking with me? I didn't receive this call. His answer: it says we left a message. I told him I never received this message, and moreover had already left home by the 22nd for my holiday. While the phone number on the reservation was my cell phone, not a home phone, I pointed out that this is not a very good way of trying to reach a traveler (this issue, missed phone messages, came up on this forum back during the mudslide in Oregon, as I recall...). In my case, even though it was my cell phone and thus with me, I didn't get the voicemail on my cell phone, for reasons unclear to me. I will give Amtrak the benefit of the doubt and assume they did in fact try to leave a message, though I have no way of knowing that for sure. I asked if there was _any_ subsequent attempt to contact me. His answer: no.

Second, I asked why Amtrak did not try to contact me via email as a second means of reaching me -- especially after not directly speaking with me by phone. They have my email -- in fact, since I made the reservation at amtrak.com, they have a pretty good indication that email/internet is my preferred way of interacting with Amtrak reservations. His answer: we always call customers in such situations; we don't email customers in such situations. I asked if there was a way to send a letter to someone suggesting that they email customers in these situations, and he told me I could telephone Customer Relations but that _there was no way to send a written suggestion_. I was pretty darned sure that there's a way to write Customer Relations, especially in the event of an unsatisfactory experience, but I didn't press him on this.

Third, I asked him to clarify this "double-booking" policy for me, as I was unfamiliar with it. His initial explanation was quite clearly wrong: "Amtrak doesn't allow a passenger to hold two tickets for the same route on the same day". What if I were traveling from WAS-NYP, and then NYP-WAS, and then WAS-NYP again on the same day, on separate reservations, I asked? Was there a chance the system automatically cancel one of these? He revised his explanation: "Well, if you were doing that, the system should notice it and it should be ok". What if I had multiple reservations for WAS-NYP that didn't overlap -- because I was traveling NYP-WAS by a non-Amtrak route? I pointed out that while I haven't done that for this city pair, I've definitely done this for shorter itineraries (utilizing SEPTA, NJT, or car-rides). He revised his explanation again: "Well, I think the system won't actually flag double-booking unless the times overlap. You can't physically be on both of these trains, because the first one gets to New York almost an hour after the second one leaves Washington". I agreed that this was indeed logical. I did not ask him what would happen if there were two trains, and the first one got to New York an hour _before_ the second one leaves Washington -- still an impossibility without teleportation or perhaps a jet-pack, but not technically an overlap.

Fourth, I asked him whether this was a new policy. He replied that he has been with Amtrak for thirteen years (so, since about 1996, or almost the entire time I have been riding Amtrak) and this was a policy he learned when he was a new employee in training. I observed that I have never read or experienced it before, despite having had similar situations, so I wondered why it seemed to be applied in some instances and not in others. His answer: "some agents don't notice the other booking, or make it anyway to do a customer a favor they technically shouldn't do". I pointed out that I had made my reservations online, and the online system did not indicate any sort of conflict or error or warning, despite having full access to my other bookings; and moreover, someone must have later observed this to be a problem (between the 8th and the 22nd, when they tried to call me), or the computer registered the error at that time (but not earlier) for some reason, which seemed odd. He didn't have a ready answer for this.

But he did explain the reasoning of the policy -- which is understandable. Amtrak doesn't want a passenger to "book low bucket fares" on trains it is impossible to ride, so as to force other passengers to book at higher fares. He stated one reason as that it's unfair to other passengers; an unstated, but also valid, reason was that it might deter other passengers from booking, and then Amtrak loses revenue. Anyway, I agreed the reason was reasonable, but expressed great surprise that the policy was so contrary to my previous experiences with Amtrak reservations. (And so contrary to what I understand to be the experiences of a great many people here. For one, this policy as explained would prevent one from booking the Empire Builder CHI-SEA departing on consecutive days; for two, this would prevent someone holding a reservation at a high-bucket from booking the same route again at a cancellation-released lower-bucket before canceling the initial high-bucket reservation. Unless there are more details to the policy, such as "for some window, you are allowed to hold double-booked reservations" -- such as "up until a week before travel" or "for five minutes while fiddling around on the website" or whatever -- but MD made no mention of this aspect of the policy, and instead claimed that all such reservations were forbidden in all circumstances. I did not press further.)

I moved on to my next question. Fifth, I asked him when Amtrak actually canceled this reservation. He looked it up, and said "this morning". (Sunday the 27th, the day before travel.) I asked if he could see what time the cancellation took place, and he could not. I asked again, just to clarify, if Amtrak had made any attempt to contact me today by any means before canceling the reservation. His answer: no.

Were it not for the bit where Amtrak apparently tried to call me about this on the 22nd, I would wonder if it was my attempting to view the reservation online this afternoon which somehow triggered the cancellation. The reservation was _not_ displayed as "canceled" when I visited "My Account" at about 2:00 pm today -- which strikes me as _really odd_. If I hadn't clicked on "Tripfolio" but had instead just consulted a timetable or gone looking for the reservation confirmation email, I would have never seen this reservation later displayed as "canceled" on the website _and in fact would have seen it as intact, less than a day before travel_. What an even worse surprise it could have been to get to the station and then find it canceled... The timing of things is strange enough that I'm still not confident I understand what exactly happened here.

SO ... a very confusing situation, and a very upsetting situation, but thankfully not one which totally louses up my plans tomorrow -- I still get to NYC (barely) on time, and I still get my AGR Rail Points, and I still have the 2:00 pm reservation at the original fare (it was never affected by any of this). But I want to make sure I understand exactly what the policy is, I want to understand how and why it may have been triggered in this instance (when it seems to not be triggered in all instances), I want to see if anyone here has had similar -- or vastly different -- experiences, I want to caution folks that this can happen (since I've never read of it before), I would greatly appreciate hearing from anyone here with greater knowledge than I whether I may have been given incorrect information at any point here by Reservations or Customer Service. Once I am sure I fully understand all of this, I will send a note to Customer Relations, at the least suggesting they should exercise more diligence in contacting customers and improve the online reservation system so that their policies are made clear from the outset.


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## Neil_M (Dec 27, 2009)

Seems a bit rubbish, after all if you had not cancelled one of the reservations they would have got your money for nothing.

I would complain bitterly, you have been shafted.

Are their terms and conditions online? Does it mention it in there?


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 27, 2009)

I've had reservations cancelled before and was called by Amtrak on my home phone, never my cell, but this was in advance and not on line so don't really know the answer? I would say that tomorrow you contact Customer Relations,

ask for a Supervisor, if you get the run around ask for a Manager and also follow up with a letter. Sounds like the agents hands were tied by something beyond their control ( a bug in the system) that can be corrected if the right person gets the info! Good luck, perhaps you can get a voucher for this inconvience which is not really your fault!Let us know what happens!


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## amamba (Dec 27, 2009)

Yikes, that is very interesting!


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## J-1 3235 (Dec 27, 2009)

Once in a while I will double book a trip on Acela, for the same reason as wayman; for other reasons, too. I generally make a decision about the one I'm going to use, and then cancel the other. I have, on occasion, been a bit lax about the cancellation, and have received a phone call from Amtrak. While I'm fairly certain they don't care why I did it, the agent always seems to understand. Of course, at that point I have to tell the agent which reservation to kill.

I wouldn't be surprised if they went ahead and cancelled one of them if they were unable to reach me. The train with less seats available, I imagine. Just a few weeks ago, I was trying to get away with an 8 minute turn in New Haven; I had booked this train, and the one 70 minutes later. Had to make the choice on the phone. When I reached NHV, I was able to make the quick turn, and thankfully only had to cough up $15 more to be ticketed on the first train-that I had cancelled 

I think Amtrak may pay close attention to the Acela, as in the past I've double booked an LD trip where it would be impossible to use both tickets, and never heard a word.

My .02!

Mike


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 27, 2009)

> "Amtrak doesn't allow a passenger to hold two tickets for the same route on the same day".


But what if I wanted a set of coach seats to myself?


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## Long Train Runnin' (Dec 27, 2009)

Its an interesting situation. I feel like you opening your tripfollio set it off.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2009)

but if you just printed off both tickets you can keep both reservations right?


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## the_traveler (Dec 27, 2009)

As stated, maybe the AE is looked at more closely. I have done a double booking for 2 Regionals from KIN-NYP, and it was no problem. (The 7:16 departure would arrive NYP until after the 9:16 departs KIN.) But I've never done this on AE. (It doesn't stop in KIN.)

I think a call to Customer Service is in order, and if necessary with someone higher up!

I have made a couple of reservation with the NEC "sale fare" (that are "*non-refundable*" but exchangeable) that I didn't take. When I went to the ticket agent to use the value - guess what? :huh: He reversed the charge *back on my credit card*! He said that this was normal!

Good luck!


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## wayman (Dec 27, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Its an interesting situation. I feel like you opening your tripfollio set it off.


I'm 90% sure that opening my tripfolio set it off too. Largely since when I visited "My Account", the reservation was _not_ shown as "canceled" -- it only became canceled when I tried to look at the reservation through "Tripfolio" and then "View/Edit". If it had already been canceled, why didn't the website say so? It's too much of a coincidence that it was automatically (or manually) canceled by Amtrak at exactly the moment when I was trying to look it up.

But Customer Service says Amtrak knew about this by the 22nd, when they claim to have called me to alert me (and presumably to inform me they would choose one to be canceled without my knowledge or consent, since they couldn't reach me? I have no idea...). That detail seems to contradict the idea that I "set it off" by trying to look at the reservation...

So I don't know.


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## wayman (Dec 27, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > "Amtrak doesn't allow a passenger to hold two tickets for the same route on the same day".
> 
> 
> But what if I wanted a set of coach seats to myself?


Another good question... I didn't ask him about multiple tickets on the same train.


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## The Metropolitan (Dec 27, 2009)

I think I might play the devil's advocate on this one, and suggest leaving it alone with the reason that I'd rather not see a can of worms opened.

We are very fortunate that our preferred mode of travel has a VERY gracious refund policy compared to every other segment of the travel industry. I know of only one airline that will refund you a full CREDIT for your airfare, with the remainder charging outlandish fares for "refundable" airfare, or charging $50-$75 change fees. Even the hound has fee surcharges on the refundability of a ticket, while other carriers like Mega or Bolt pretty much have a "you not there, you lost your money" pricing policy.

Yes, I've even seen instances where "non-refundable" reservations have been refunded, and had a friend given a complimentary change when he missed the train he booked with the 14 day advance fare. I've been able to bump up to an earlier train south out of Philly when we didn't feel like dwelling after getting off train #42 with no problems, depite the lack of a guaranteed connection.

I can see Amtrak's reasoning to prevent bucket hoarding, and on Acela, can see where it may be a particular problem that tends to get the lion's share of attention.

And to be perfectly honest, I do seem to recall actually doing something like this in Fall 07, when making an 800 point run. I booked two reservations for the round trip, both of which used segments aboard the Pennsylvanian west of Harrisburg. Booking reservations to/from Lewistown kicked in a pro-rated LD price that was much cheaper than booking in and out of Harrisburg. I never had a reservation problem despite it being impossible to take a same day round trip to Lewistown from the east, and didn't pick the tickets up to the day of the trip.

The Ticket Agent had an interesting look when perusing my itinerary...

"So you're going to Wilmington,

then you're going to Philadelphia,

then you're going to P-p-p-Peeholey?...."

/edit/ - Will, given your name, I would think that in the future, you might be able to circumvent something like this by booking your two reservations under "Will" and "William" with the "Backup" reservation lacking your AGR number, using the name you don't typically use, and paid for via a different method. This way, it wouldn't readily trigger as being a double res, and you could end around if you wind up using it by submitting it post trip for AGR credit. Yes, it kills your ability to get AGR off the payment on your Chase card, and I know that hits and AGRholic in a bad way, but it's something.


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## AlanB (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm almost positive that your going to look at your reservation had nothing to do with it being cancelled. That system doesn't always accurately display things. I've seen people with reservations showing there, show up at the station only to find out that Amtrak changed their room number, even their car number, despite the online system being blissfully unaware.

As for the cancellation, I do agree that it was bad form that only one attempt was made to contact you, and that no message appears to have been left. Not to speak ill of all agents, but many are notorious for telling ARROW that they've read to you all the restrictions on your fare, various luggage rules, and things like that, even though they actually never did do so. But they'll check off that they did it anyhow. Addtionally I do think it both wrong and unfortunate that this apparently "new policy" is not documented for people to see.

And Amtrak has long been concerned about this type of problem of multi-booking trains, especially on the NEC. This is why the unpaid reservations rules changed a few years back, as business people would book 3 or 4 different trains unpaid, then just pick up the tickets for the train that they actually made. Some wouldn't even call to cancel the other reservations, thereby letting Amtrak know that they could resell that seat.

So now for an Acela you can pretty much forget having more than 1 day of grace to pay for a reservation, unless you're booking several months out. But if you're booking to say Tuesday, you'll have to pay for that reservation by tomorrow or loose it. Therefore with the rather liberal cancellation policy, it doesn't surprise me that they are now looking for double bookings of this nature.


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## diesteldorf (Dec 27, 2009)

The Metropolitan said:


> I think I might play the devil's advocate on this one, and suggest leaving it alone with the reason that I'd rather not see a can of worms opened.


I agree. but also admit that I have been guilty of the same behavior, although I don't have the opportunity to travel frequently on the NEC. A couple years ago, an agent noticed that I had a double booking on the Acela and mentioned it to me. Since I was at work, I was ready to decide which one to cancel and had very limited time to speak to her. I disconnected the call and nothing more ever came of it.

I've spoken to ticket agents and have been told that one thing Amtrak dwells on heavily are unpaid reservations because inventory is tied up and no money is being received. Now, if you actually go ahead and pay for all reservations, Amtrak is less likely to be as concerned. I readily exchange tickets for other tickets so I may have printed tickets that I may not use. Amtrak at least knows they have my money up front.

Granted, most people are wary about paying for 3-4 reservations, but at least it may decrease the possibility of being red flagged.

Regarding my Acela situation, I believe I had already printed the tickets for each train, so that may have been part of the reason why the agent did little except verbally chastise me.

I really hope the refund/exchange policy doesn't undergo any changes in the near future. I know I'll be going to CHI a few times between Jan-April, 2010 so I made reservations and printed tickets, knowing that I can always apply unused tickets toward future trips. It gives me the flexibility to travel on a wim without getting stuck paying high bucket rates.

I honestly don't think Amtrak is as concerned about the long distance trains. I once had a reservation to CHI on the EB #8 and a reservation to MSP on #7. The only way I remembered what happened was when the station agent asked me about it while scratching his head.


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## diesteldorf (Dec 27, 2009)

AlanB said:


> So now for an Acela you can pretty much forget having more than 1 day of grace to pay for a reservation, unless you're booking several months out. But if you're booking to say Tuesday, you'll have to pay for that reservation by tomorrow or loose it. Therefore with the rather liberal cancellation policy, it doesn't surprise me that they are now looking for double bookings of this nature.


Assuming someone has made duplicate reservations and actually ticketed them, if they cancel one or more of the reservations, does Amtrak even have the ability to keep them from boarding if they have a ticket for a canceled reservation?

Obviously, it could prevent AGR points from being credited if the reservation was canceled, but assuming these are all for coach class or Acela business class, what can Amtrak do?

Now I realize most people are not going to pay for and ticket reservations and then cancel some of them immediately, but once somebody has a blue ticket in there hand, does Amtrak just find a way to make room for them?

I'm not suggesting everyone do this, but it'll be curious if E ticketing will resolve this.


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## wayman (Dec 27, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Additionally I do think it both wrong and unfortunate that this apparently "new policy" is not documented for people to see.


Alan, does that mean this feels like a relatively new policy to you (as opposed to "the policy for at least thirteen years" as the Customer Service described)? An old problem they've tried multiple solutions to, from the sound of it, but that this particular solution is perhaps not an old one?

I don't object to there being some sort of policy regarding this. But I object to it being vaguely defined, poorly communicated, or unpredictably enforced. And so far, it seems to be all three of these!


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 27, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > "Amtrak doesn't allow a passenger to hold two tickets for the same route on the same day".
> 
> 
> But what if I wanted a set of coach seats to myself?


Make out that reservation to Mr. Valise Samsonite.


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## AlanB (Dec 28, 2009)

diesteldorf said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > So now for an Acela you can pretty much forget having more than 1 day of grace to pay for a reservation, unless you're booking several months out. But if you're booking to say Tuesday, you'll have to pay for that reservation by tomorrow or loose it. Therefore with the rather liberal cancellation policy, it doesn't surprise me that they are now looking for double bookings of this nature.
> ...


If they're in First Class, then it becomes rather easy to prevent them from boarding as the crew could be told not to allow the passenger to board. In any other class, no the crew would not be able to stop you from boarding. However, if Amtrak wanted to make a point, the crew could be on the lookout for you and once they find you while collecting your ticket, they could then have you put off at the next stop if they wanted to. Might not be the best idea for Amtrak to do something like that however.

Far more likely would be for Amtrak to cancel one of your reservations without caring which ticket you actually use, and keeping the money for both tickets. And if people continue to do this type of thing in great numbers, and I'm not sure if they do that and I'm certainly not accusing Wayman of doing so, look for Amtrak to impliment such a policy. More likely however that they'll approach it from the angle of, you must cancel 24 hours before departure to get a full refund or something like that.

Eticketing still wouldn't stop you from boarding, but it certainly would make it easy for the crew to find you upon collecting tickets, since they wouldn't even have to remember your name.


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## AlanB (Dec 28, 2009)

wayman said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Additionally I do think it both wrong and unfortunate that this apparently "new policy" is not documented for people to see.
> ...


I've no doubt that this is a new policy; certainly not a 13 year old one. The reason is simple, 13 years ago you just brought the ticket for the train that you figured you'd catch. If you got done early and got to the station early, you just went to the ticket counter and exchanged the ticket for the earlier train with no penalites. Amtrak didn't reprice the ticket to the current bucket level, so there were no penalties involved and no need to make multiple reservations.

This entire issue became a problem because Amtrak started charging the current bucket anytime you did anything to the reservation.

In fact, this policy causes no end of headaches for those trying to use the free upgrade coupons. Processing one of those coupons causes ARROW to reprice the reservation, and the agent must override the price and return it to its original bucket level. Unfortunately not all agents know that this happens or that they must reprice. So be careful when using those coupons. Always verify the price with the agent before starting the process, without regard to whether you're on the phone or in the station, and verify it again before hanging up or leaving the windoow. The exception to that rule is in the Club Acela's where all the agents seem to know how to properly handle the coupons. And always bring your confirmation with you to the station just in case they did get it wrong. That printed confirmation is your only proof of the original bucket price.


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## PRR 60 (Dec 28, 2009)

diesteldorf said:


> ...Assuming someone has made duplicate reservations and actually ticketed them, if they cancel one or more of the reservations, does Amtrak even have the ability to keep them from boarding if they have a ticket for a canceled reservation?


Once the ticket has been printed, then a refund or voucher credit is only issued when the physical ticket is returned. If the ticket is used for travel, then no refund is possible. So, cancelling a ticketed reservation and then using the ticket anyway means no refund or voucher credit.


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## diesteldorf (Dec 28, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> diesteldorf said:
> 
> 
> > ...Assuming someone has made duplicate reservations and actually ticketed them, if they cancel one or more of the reservations, does Amtrak even have the ability to keep them from boarding if they have a ticket for a canceled reservation?
> ...


Exactly, but if it was used for travel it would not be refunded. What I am stating is what if someone had 3 different reservations, ticketed all 3, then decided to cancel 1 or more of them, and then use of of those canceled tickets to board. I doubt many would try, but it is potentially one way to get around the duplicate reservation rule.


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## PRR 60 (Dec 28, 2009)

diesteldorf said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > diesteldorf said:
> ...


Alan might be able to confirm (or not), but once the three tickets are printed, then, like airline boarding passes, things are pretty firm. I don't think that Amtrak could easily cancel a ticketed reservation, unless for a specific space, like a sleeper room. Besides, all three tickets could conceivably be used if there happened to be three people in a household that shared the same name (I know a household that used to have two - mine). Just having the same name and address and even credit card does not mean the tickets are positively for the same person.

However, for the most common reason to multi-book trips - business travel with a floating return time - having printed tickets for all the options is way too cumbersome. Business travellers do not want to deal with returning paper tickets and handling vouchers that have to be turned in for future reservations. They want purely electronic reservations that auto-credit when cancelled or just left unused. So, they would use a means to accomplish that without giving the duplicate reservations cops at Amtrak cause to cancel reservations. I don't do it myself (honesty is one of my failings), but it can be done.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Dec 28, 2009)

I asked one of my station agents about this, he said you cannot book two or more tickets in the same direction of travel that would prevent you from using the other ticket/s. i.e. 2 regionals from was-nyp within 2hr 30 min of each other. However you can book was-nyp and nyp-was that overlap, because you could exit the nb at say bal and get on the sb, therefore using both tickets.

He said the reason you can't double book is because tickets are automatically refunded to credit/debit cards when a ticket is not scanned into ARROW. All tickets get scanned in when the conductor turns them in at the end of the runs.

In other words if you don't use a ticket, 30 days later you get a full refund whether you want it or not. He said in the past you could double book but by doing so you voided the refundabilty of the other tickets, therefore if you didn't cancel the other reservations you paid for them.

As far as buying two seats for yourself and your stuff, you can but it must be done in person or via phone, Amtrak.com will not allow you to list the same name on more than one ticket for the same train.


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## printman2000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Even if you were somehow able to buy two tickets to so you can spread out, there is no guarantee both seats will be next to each other when coach seats are unreserved.


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## PRR 60 (Dec 28, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> ...As far as buying two seats for yourself and your stuff, you can but it must be done in person or via phone, Amtrak.com will not allow you to list the same name on more than one ticket for the same train.


Are you sure? Amtrak.com seems to permit that. I just went all the way to the payment page with no problems. In fact, I've made just such a booking a few years ago. My son and I share the same name (not at all uncommon), so both tickets on the reservation had the same name.


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## transit54 (Dec 28, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> As far as buying two seats for yourself and your stuff, you can but it must be done in person or via phone, Amtrak.com will not allow you to list the same name on more than one ticket for the same train.


Well, you can if you just book two separate reservations. I just did it this past weekend. I had a ticket for Sunday's northbound Vermonter, and lost it somehow on my trip south. So I had to buy another ticket for the same train - both were bought online, and I had no issues.


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## AlanB (Dec 28, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> diesteldorf said:
> 
> 
> > PRR 60 said:
> ...


Agreed Bill, if someone made three reservations, printed the tickets for the three, then Amtrak wouldn't be able to truly cancel the reservations for you by phone. It would have to be done in person.

Just as an example many years ago I was ticketed for a Metroliner from DC back to NY. I'm not sure of the exact times as it was several years ago so I'm winging things here, but for example I let's say that I was on the 4:00 PM train and I was holding the ticket for it. It turned out that I was going to miss that train because I hadn't completed what I needed to do at my client that day. Because I was in First Class, I had to cancel things 1 hour before or loose my FC upcharge.

So I called Amtrak and the agent rebooked me on a later train, I'm thinking the 7:00 PM and gave me a code to write on the back of my ticket. That code proved that I had called to cancel the FC seat, but it did not actually cancel the reservation for the 4:00 PM train. I needed to turn in that ticket before I could get my new ticket for the 7:00 PM train. Had I somehow made the 4:00 PM train and used that ticket, then I would not have received any credit or any refund for that ticket.

Bottom line, one can't really cancel a reservation by phone/internet once the ticket is printed. It can only be cancelled by turning in the ticket. If you fail to turn in that ticket, you don't get a refund. Now if the ticket includes an accomodation charge, then you must call before the deadline to cancel the accomodation or loose that money forever no matter what you do. But the funds for the rail fare and if applicable the accomodations won't be returned to you until the ticket is turned in.


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## AlanB (Dec 28, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> I asked one of my station agents about this, he said you cannot book two or more tickets in the same direction of travel that would prevent you from using the other ticket/s. i.e. 2 regionals from was-nyp within 2hr 30 min of each other. However you can book was-nyp and nyp-was that overlap, because you could exit the nb at say bal and get on the sb, therefore using both tickets.


Why anyone would want to buy a ticket to NY paying all that extra money, only to get off and back on in Baltimore is beyond me. I understand the example, but frankly it's not a very logical reason for allowing that while not allowing a double booking.



Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> He said the reason you can't double book is because tickets are automatically refunded to credit/debit cards when a ticket is not scanned into ARROW. All tickets get scanned in when the conductor turns them in at the end of the runs.


Sorry, and I realize that you're just repeating what you were told, but this makes no sense. To tell someone that they can't double book because they'll get a refund on the ticket that they didn't use makes no sense, since that would be exactly what they want anyhow. And if the ticket is printed, they won't get an automatic refund if the ticket goes unused. See below.



Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> In other words if you don't use a ticket, 30 days later you get a full refund whether you want it or not. He said in the past you could double book but by doing so you voided the refundabilty of the other tickets, therefore if you didn't cancel the other reservations you paid for them.


I can't even begin to imagine how Amtrak could justify voiding the refundability of the other tickets without a visible policy in effect. Not to mention that it directly conflicts with the idea that an unscanned ticket automatically generates a refund, something also known not to be true. If one looses a ticket, one must fill out a special form, then wait something like 6 months IIRC for Amtrak to verify that the ticket did indeed go unused, before one can get a refund.

So bottom line here, either this guy was just blowing smoke or he actually had no idea what the policies are.


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## diesteldorf (Dec 29, 2009)

Not to beat a dead horse to death, but lets forget that we're talking about duplicate reservations for the same day, and instead that I may have several coach tickets that I know I won't use for different days. I don't do this on purpose, but if I decide to go for a joyride and then something comes up the day of departure, I've been in this situation.

Do I truly gain anything my calling Amtrak and advising them that I am canceling my coach reservation? Would my low bucket coach fare go back as a low bucket fare for the next person? Obviously, as in Alan's example, if I cancel but then ride anyway, I wouldn't earn any AGR points.

Now, my sense of urgency to cancel a coach reservation is never as urgent as one for a sleeper, and there are many times where I won't call to cancel but rather just not show up. Later on, I'll apply the unused coach ticket toward another reservation. It would be interesting to see if Amtrak ever did a study on the average percentage of no shows in coach on a particular run. 10% or higher...who knows but I guess this also explains how the trains can get oversold.

Regarding canceling once a reservation has been ticketed, I had a ticket from late 2007 or early 2008 from Chicago to

La Crosse that I found this past summer. I assumed that the ticket would be worthless to be exchanged since it was over a year, but I hung on to it. When I was riding back from Chicago, I advised the conductor of my situation and showed her the ticket. She let me travel on it which was extremely nice of her and fortunate for me. However, I imagine the actual reservation was long since history and I received no AGR points for it--this was outweighed by the fact that I was able to redeem the ticket at all.


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## AlanB (Dec 29, 2009)

You don't gain anything immediate, but everytime you do this you prevent Amtrak from potentially reselling the seat, which means lost revenue and therefore potentially higher prices in the future since Amtrak isn't earning the max it can from that train.

However, if you have the printed ticket, AFAIK Amtrak cannot resell that seat anyhow unless you visit the station and turn in the ticket. Just calling to cancel won't release the seat for resale to another passenger.

So in all honesty it would be best if you can either try to avoid booking multiple days like this, or at least avoid picking up the tickets until the last minute. That way if you haven't picked up the ticket and call to cancel, Amtrak at least has a chance at reselling the seat to someone else.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Dec 29, 2009)

AlanB said:


> You don't gain anything immediate, but everytime you do this you prevent Amtrak from potentially reselling the seat, which means lost revenue and therefore potentially higher prices in the future since Amtrak isn't earning the max it can from that train.
> However, if you have the printed ticket, AFAIK Amtrak cannot resell that seat anyhow unless you visit the station and turn in the ticket. Just calling to cancel won't release the seat for resale to another passenger.
> 
> So in all honesty it would be best if you can either try to avoid booking multiple days like this, or at least avoid picking up the tickets until the last minute. That way if you haven't picked up the ticket and call to cancel, Amtrak at least has a chance at reselling the seat to someone else.


This is why Amtrak is going for barcoded tickets with ticket scanners that link into ARROW, over the "fancy hole punch" method. Once they switch they can immediately release a seat for sell when there is a no show.


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## AlanB (Dec 29, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > You don't gain anything immediate, but everytime you do this you prevent Amtrak from potentially reselling the seat, which means lost revenue and therefore potentially higher prices in the future since Amtrak isn't earning the max it can from that train.
> ...


There are other reasons for going to ticket scanners, like E-Tickets. But Amtrak isn't there yet and last I heard the tests had gone badly setting things back quite a bit.

So until then, holding a ticket does mean that Amtrak cannot resell the seat.


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## kj (Oct 27, 2011)

*Moderator note: This reply is to a topic from 2009.*

I asked an agent by phone this questions about booking the same train for two consecutive days, then cancelling one and getting a full refund. The guy balked, and said you can't "double book." however, how do they know I'm not taking the train down one day, flying back the next morning, and taking the train again? While unlikely, the trips do not overlap in dates at all and are therefore not covered under the same day same route policy.

Well, where it gets a little tricky though is that the 2nd day's NYP to Miami route leaves NY before the 1st one reaches Miami. As such, I am not sure whether that is considered an overlap but I suppose it could very well be.


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## abcnews (Oct 27, 2011)

It happened to me this summer - we had a bedroom on the Cardinal and the train was sold out. They just took it away - it was confusing, but they thought I was also going to San Antonio on the Texas Eagle (on the same day). Actually, I did have a BR from VA to San Antonio on the Capital Limited/Eagle, but I was getting off in Chicago and returning to VA - and my son was to continue on to San Antonio on that same 20,000 AGR award trip from VA. I was to return to VA on the Cardinal, with my wife and a daughter - in a BR, on the Cardinal. It was due to depart Chicago the same day as the Texas Eagle segment - that my son was to stay on. Anyway, our Cardinal BR was cancelled - and no seats were available (sold out). I found out prior to our trip was to start, and I just cancelled my trip plans.

Since I had planned to use AGR points, I decided not to complain, and just put those points back in our account, and plan another trip later. But I was a bit ticked that they cancelled our BR without discussing it with me.


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