# Train Jam CZ Feb 23



## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 3, 2016)

http://trainjam.com

So a group of game programmers have taken over the California Zephyr from Chicago to Oakland on Feb 23, 2017. The train is currently sold out.

This topic came up on a different thread.

Can Amtrak empty out the yard for this group? More renvue cars, and more lounge space?

Edit change of date, and to cut down on the story.


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## Anderson (Dec 3, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> http://trainjam.com
> 
> So a group of game programmers have taken over the California Zephyr from Chicago to Oakland on Feb 23, 2016. The train is currently sold out.
> 
> ...


I'd wonder doubly since it's the dead of winter and if last year is anything to go by they would be "shorting" other trains at that time by a sleeper and/or coach. If they're shorting the Zephyr by a sleeper, that would provide at _least_ 5 spare sleepers (not to mention the seasonal-only Chief sleeper, which should provide another 4-5). In summer I'd say "no", but in February?


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 3, 2016)

Things to consider:

Perhaps this group arranged exclusive occupancy as part of the agreement.

I believe there is still a maximum length for the train at DEN. That would mean they could possibly add two more cars. Would that be worth the costs if that translates into additional attendants, equipment, staff and stops? Additionally, if they are not coming back by train, what is the cost of getting all of the equipment back, particularly if it doesn't sell out?

Assuming this group uses the full consist (and judging by the numbers, they're using most of it), they may take a page from train 830 in the Sept 26th 30 Capitol Limited Cancelled thread. In other words, they may have a hold on the train until the numbers are firm, and then sell any leftover space.

Indeed, groups have a certain amount of time to preserve their space. Maybe they won't even show and all the space will be released.


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## niemi24s (Dec 3, 2016)

My feeble little mind is boggled at the thought of a whole train full of gamers, feverishly poking away at their PDA's while the wonderful scenery along the CZ route passes them by.


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## CCC1007 (Dec 3, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> My feeble little mind is boggled at the thought of a whole train full of gamers, feverishly poking away at their PDA's while the wonderful scenery along the CZ route passes them by.


PDA's?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 3, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Things to consider:
> 
> Perhaps this group arranged exclusive occupancy as part of the agreement.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. Everything you stated is a valid issue. However you did not check with the organization web site. The train is fully sold out, both on the game designer web site, and on Amtrak web site.

Denver is a short platform but looks like three additional cars could be added in October when the AU gang was in town. It does have the ability to host PV, and the second track. So yes it's a pain by design, but not a excuse.

Even if a unstaffed Lounge car was added just for space, some of pax might not notice but some may. Good will for a group travel with lap tops that are networking. (Both social and work related)

The other issues is this middle of the winter run using the short off season train set or the full summer mode length.

Even one way planned traffic, you could plan to return the additional cars after the event. You might pick up a few extra pax in the middle of the winter.


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 3, 2016)

Interesting response. I will tackle a couple of things together.



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Thanks for your reply. Everything you stated is a valid issue. However you did not check with the organization web site. The train is fully sold out, both on the game designer web site, and on Amtrak web site.


I'd like to tether this with my previous statement.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Indeed, groups have a certain amount of time to preserve their space. Maybe they won't even show and all the space will be released.


While you'd like to use the term "sold out," I prefer to use the term "reserved out." This is because as we've discussed on the board about groups, there may be a hold on the space until the numbers are settled. The numbers are not settled until payment is rendered. It things aren't settled by a certain date, the space will be released. Perhaps that date hasn't occurred yet. h34r:



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Denver is a short platform but looks like three additional cars could be added in October when the AU gang was in town. It does have the ability to host PV, and the second track. So yes it's a pain by design, but not a excuse.
> 
> Even if a unstaffed Lounge car was added just for space, some of pax might not notice but some may. Good will for a group travel with lap tops that are networking. (Both social and work related)
> 
> The other issues is this middle of the winter run using the short off season train set or the full summer mode length.



You're of course saying this without knowing if they are using an abbreviated consist(which judging by the numbers, I'm willing to say that is not the plan) or knowing how many people are actually currently considering the trip. As such, you don't know if they are not only bringing in an extra lounge ( or two), but an additional diner to feed the amount of people that are traveling for three days. Remember, they did just that in the thread I linked above (which had a similar amount of people scheduled). This would naturally impact operations at a place like Denver. That is more than a "pain" or an "an excuse." It is indeed an operational issue. So, again adding additional equipment might not even be feasible.

However, let's say that it is and we have two more cars to play with. Assuming that the group didn't ask for exclusive occupancy, they are traveling end to end (and then some I think.) All you need to do is staff the train for the group and make the usual recrew/servicing stops (just as they did in the thread above.) How much additional revenue will you capture and how much additional staff will you need to accommodate the additional riders. Will they even show up since as you've previously stated, it is the dead of winter? Perhaps, they are looking at it and saying "this train, which is a big money loser is completely full. It is one train, so we'll leave it sold out and stay ahead of the curve." Deadheading equipment for three days still costs money. That of course assumes the equipment couldn't just stay in California, to which I say perhaps it can. I would probably use the CAL pool and deadhead the equipment out to CHI for the beef up so when it gets back to California, it settles back in.

I can only speculate about the contents since there are a many variables and this trip is still far off. For all we know, more equipment will get added. They added more equipment to existing trains and eventually more trains to support the Million Women March. For all we know, some of the members of this group will not make the trip and that space will return to inventory. We should probably wait until the end of December and see how things are really shaking out.


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## west point (Dec 3, 2016)

Several thoughts. This is a Thursday origination in CHI arrive EMY SAT..

Extra equipment may not be as available as we think. Remember the Denver Ski train operates SAT and SUN so that equipment is not available.

DOES the CZ have potable water service and fueling at DEN ? If so longer train may be limited.

However if servicing not needed at Denver the train can bypass DEN station and change T&E at the WYE since no DEN passengers to board or alight. Servicing of diner(s) may be required at DEN or SLC.

If some of the charter passengers are originating at DEN then stop required ?.

If no intermediate passengers then train can run ahead of schedule subject to T&E crew time and co-operation by BNSF and UP.


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 3, 2016)

west point said:


> Several thoughts. This is a Thursday origination in CHI arrive EMY SAT..
> 
> Extra equipment may not be as available as we think. Remember the Denver Ski train operates SAT and SUN so that equipment is not available.
> 
> ...


If everything remains as it appears, the passengers are traveling from end to end. No one will alight once the train leaves CHI. DEN can not be overlooked since it is not only a fueling/service facility, it is the calendar day inspection point for the entire train, which I believe is part of the reason for the limit. I've never been to Denver so I don't know if it matters that no one should board or alight. It's not like you have to spot it for loading or unloading. Perhaps the length hinders inspections or fouling points.

If this trip occurs, it looks like it might be a great place to network and have fun. I wonder if there will be a special menu or special items in the cafe car.



> Student Ambassador Program
> 
> Train Jam is now providing opportunities specifically tailored for students via our Student Ambassador Program. We are working with various Universities to guarantee space on the train for students to participate in Train Jam and and benefit from all of the associated experiences.
> 
> Student ambassador jam tickets include one Coach-Class ticket on the train, access to all sponsor provided jam benefits, and one GDC Expo Pass graciously provided by GDC organizers. *All games created during Train Jam will be exhibited in the Train Jam booth on the Expo Floor at GDC.*



I wonder if the student ambassadors are allowed to imbibe! ^_^

I can't wait to see what games come out of this trip. Perhaps there will be a game called "NO HEP," in which your train is in the middle of nowhere during the summer and you strike debris. You have to repair severed cables before certain levels are reached such as passengers calling customer relations, your entire food supply is condemned or people start kicking out windows.

Maybe there will be a game named "My sleeper companion snores much more than I thought," and you have to find a way to keep yourself asleep.

How about a game of "find the air leak on the Auto Train." It is similar to "Where's Waldo," with consequences. You have to find it before the toilets stop working for good, the brakes won't release and the wild boar that has been stalking you as you walk the train, closes in with reinforcements. Bonus points if any crew member resigns. Extra points if announcements updating the status of the train comes every twenty minutes.

Hmmm..there might be a market for this. I should take this trip. I might make a fortune!


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 4, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > Several thoughts. This is a Thursday origination in CHI arrive EMY SAT..
> ...


 :giggle:


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## neroden (Dec 4, 2016)

They're going to have to keep making the "fresh air stops", no question about that....

I think it's actually extremely unwise to ever suspend service to intermediate points just because you've got a charter -- it shows a lack of seriousness about Amtrak's core mission -- so I hope Amtrak won't actually do that. Perhaps one approach would be put all the non-charter passengers in one coach, and sell all the tickets at top bucket, so that only the "no I really really needed to travel THAT DAY!!!" passengers bother to buy tickets. Most likely Amtrak simply has not released the excess space yet and will do so later.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 4, 2016)

neroden said:


> Most likely Amtrak simply has not released the excess space yet and will do so later.


Since you can't book this train on the Train Jam web site due to "Sold Out" of all seats, and compartment. But a few days ago Amsnag show coach space. One thinks there are non-event passengers on board. So the train will be stop at all scheduled stops.


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## snvboy (Dec 4, 2016)

I first found out about TrainJam in 2015 when I was (by pure coincidence) on the California Zephyr that they were on. I remember sitting in my room in Chicago as folks were boarding, and thinking "Man, this is youngest crowd ever on Amtrak. This is gonna be FUN." They had these great "Fun Meter" buttons that you could move the meter on from like 0 to 10. 

Their event has grown every year. 2015 they shared the same lounge as the rest of the passengers, which led to a few issues that the group handled professionally. Last year (and I believe this year) they have their own lounge car and cafe (the line up sponsors to pick up the cafe car tab). It's a great group of friendly, energetic programmers and game developers from around the world. Overall I think it's a very cool event and idea. Should they be doing it with private cars? Maybe, but I'm guessing the economics of that don't work out at all for the group or the attendees - there just aren't enough berths and space in private cars. TrainJam is also able to split roomettes, not with Amtrak but on their own rooming list.

In terms of "suspending service" - the train is sold out, does it matter at all HOW it got sold out?

Interestingly one of the real challenges they have is the power capacity in the cars. On my train there were numerous blackout and brownouts - I think this is something the organizers have gotten a better handle on.

In terms of the games created and conjectured with sarcasm in a previous post, all the games are available here: http://trainjam.com/games

They have a 'theme' each year - I think in 2015 it was "on track". If you go to that link, the output and creativity are absolutely impressive. Even more so when you consider how many distractions there are on the California Zephyr. It's fun to follow the @trainjam Twitter and IG and see how many developers post "I'm so behind on my game because of the awesome views from the train".

Here are a few photos from my 2015 trip.







TrainJammers be jammin











Many distractions from the awesome scenery between Denver and Grand Junction.






On of the "Men who wear many hats" - that's actually the name of the developers company.


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## snvboy (Dec 4, 2016)

And a few more photos...






Breadboarding an LED module for a game






Finished LED game - two tracks of LEDs race each other.






Tab in the Cafe car that was picked up by sponsors. Past Reno it was pretty slim pickings.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 4, 2016)

FYI "snvboy" was the AU user that post this information first on a different thread. I did give him credit, but delete the reference to clean up the first post.


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 4, 2016)

Thank you for the information, snvboy! it looks like a good time. As you indicated, the numbers are probably increasing every year.


niemi24s said:


> My feeble little mind is boggled at the thought of a whole train full of gamers, feverishly poking away at their PDA's while the wonderful scenery along the CZ route passes them by.


It looks like the gamers are attentive and possibly inspired by the scenery.



snvboy said:


> In terms of "suspending service" - the train is sold out, does it matter at all HOW it got sold out?


Indeed! A sold out train is not a necessarily a bad thing. However, if the group did take over the whole train without an E/O clause, I'm in agreement with justthinking and Anderson. If it is possible to add a car or two, it should be considered since the train is making the trip anyway.



snvboy said:


> In terms of the games created and conjectured with sarcasm in a previous post, all the games are available here: http://trainjam.com/games
> 
> They have a 'theme' each year - I think in 2015 it was "on track". If you go to that link, the output and creativity are absolutely impressive. Even more so when you consider how many distractions there are on the California Zephyr. It's fun to follow the @trainjam Twitter and IG and see how many developers post "I'm so behind on my game because of the awesome views from the train".


I make no apologies for the titles of my games. You know it was funny and honestly, it seems like I wasn't that far off. Check out some of the titles of the games:

Super Hobo Devs

Adriel is Late

Two On The Track

Mark Ellis: Train Bridge Inspector

This Train Is Gonna Kill You

Lucid Sense Deprivation

Slow Disconnect

The Little Engine That Killed EVERY DAMN THING IN ITS WAY

Snow Thy Enemy

Itty Bitty Trainwrecks

Wooden Trains in Flames

Track Mayham

Yup! These all sound like they were inspired by an Amtrak journey and judging by what you said about the brownouts, my NO HEP game has a chance! :giggle:


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 4, 2016)

Seems like this isn't a whole lot different than the annual Florida to Washington "Kiddie Train" which we have had numerous threads on!

I'm with the why not run a "Special" for them crowd, YMMV.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 4, 2016)

> ....and at the 1 hour and 28 minute mark, all of our public sale tickets are gone!


Tickets when on sale for Train Jam 2017 on November 28th.

Block the full Train out for next year, add cars.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 4, 2016)

I could think of several reasons Private Cars wouldn't work. One the highest sleeping car number I think is 24 passengers most are lower. Each car has a different charter price some are as low as 1,000 a day some are upwards of 5,000 a day. If you want to charter coaches there aren't many single level coaches I can think of five off hat that are certified. Plus each car is different interior, and furnishings. So some people who get a coach ticket in say St Augustine will end up smelling that funky smell in the Exploded smerth. While someone who gets an IP coach gets something similar to a long distance coach on Amtrak.

Plus you would have to get a train manager to get everyone together I could think of three qualified people who could do that fairly easy.




That is the locomotive guide for PVs with train length restrictions for the CZ.


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## neroden (Dec 4, 2016)

The inability of Amtrak to simply add cars and add trains when demand requires is a problem. Anything which is sold out well in advance, there should be extra sections added.

If it gets long enough, the train could be run in two sections.  If Amtrak can come up with the equipment. And if the host railroads aren't asses about it.


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## neroden (Dec 4, 2016)

Seaboard92 said:


> I could think of several reasons Private Cars wouldn't work. One the highest sleeping car number I think is 24 passengers most are lower. Each car has a different charter price some are as low as 1,000 a day some are upwards of 5,000 a day. If you want to charter coaches there aren't many single level coaches I can think of five off hat that are certified. Plus each car is different interior, and furnishings. So some people who get a coach ticket in say St Augustine will end up smelling that funky smell in the Exploded smerth. While someone who gets an IP coach gets something similar to a long distance coach on Amtrak.
> 
> Plus you would have to get a train manager to get everyone together I could think of three qualified people who could do that fairly easy.
> 
> ...


I would really love to see slightly more of that guide because I've been very curious about the current train length restrictions at different stations (for instance, on the LSL route...) But I don't know where to get a copy of it, is it available AARPCO members only? :-(


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 4, 2016)

I would hate to be a "stray" pax on this run; several years ago I had to last minute book a hotel in Kansas City to crew an airshow flight and the closest hotel to the Downtown Airport was over run with a Gamer Convention; it was a night of terror with them running up and down the hallways and playing games in every square inch of public space.


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## snvboy (Dec 4, 2016)

Having been that "stray," all the TrainJam folks were pretty cool. The organizers put signs on about 1/3 of the tables in the lounge car saying "NO TRAIN JAMMERS." I think the organizers were pretty good at respecting the non-participant travelers, and making sure that the participants did as well. The participants were all eager to talk about their game ideas, where they were from, etc.

I recall one time in the lounge that one of the game noises was bothering me, and they didn't make an issue out of putting on their headphones. No late night shenanigans, no drunk escapades. Keep in mind, the TrainJam folks aren't doing this to play games, they are doing it to make them. So there is a lot of focused effort.

The diner DID run out of veggie burgers pretty early in the trip, and as noted on one of the photo captions the cafe car was cleaned out by Reno.

I gave some serious thought to booking on this trip in 2017 - either direct with Amtrak or via TranJam - just because it was just a neat group of people and a very cool vibe on the train.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 4, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> > ....and at the 1 hour and 28 minute mark, all of our public sale tickets are gone!
> 
> 
> Tickets when on sale for Train Jam 2017 on November 28th.


Best bet is book way before Train Jam does. Getting it from them is going to be hard. Also they use all bunks up, so no solo travel.


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## west point (Dec 4, 2016)

The lack of surge fleet cars is going to be an ongoing problem. Now if the new administration would get funds to rebuild what equipment that is wrecked then that would start but probably they would immediately be absorbed into present high travel periods much as happened in the 2009 - 2010 period.

If Amtrak is going to run out of food on this trip maybe they can put a cold storage frig in the Baggage car with extra food ?


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 5, 2016)

neroden said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > I could think of several reasons Private Cars wouldn't work. One the highest sleeping car number I think is 24 passengers most are lower. Each car has a different charter price some are as low as 1,000 a day some are upwards of 5,000 a day. If you want to charter coaches there aren't many single level coaches I can think of five off hat that are certified. Plus each car is different interior, and furnishings. So some people who get a coach ticket in say St Augustine will end up smelling that funky smell in the Exploded smerth. While someone who gets an IP coach gets something similar to a long distance coach on Amtrak.
> ...


It's only for AAPRCO members which I am one. If you shoot me a PM. I'm more then happy to send you a copy. And any other info you might be interested in. I'll see if I have access to.


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## chakk (Dec 5, 2016)

What train length restrictions? Amtrak LD trains like the CZ routinely do double stops. And triple stops are common at the Truckee, California station.


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## ScouseAndy (Dec 5, 2016)

didnt the trains used to be far longer when they carried mail?


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## CCC1007 (Dec 5, 2016)

ScouseAndy said:


> didnt the trains used to be far longer when they carried mail?


Yes they were much longer, but the restrictions in place are for stations that have been modified since that time and no longer can accommodate the longer trains.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 5, 2016)

Or for stations that were built after Amtrak assumed passenger operations. Another thing to remember too Mail and express was handled ahead of the engines in the pre Amtrak days. And engines don't need to be on the platform. And when Amtrak did them the cars were only switched out at longer stops. So again they didn't need to be on the platform.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 22, 2017)

It looks like they do intend to add another lounge for the trip.

I hope these guys make it through.


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## snvboy (Feb 22, 2017)

Follow along on the Twitters!

https://twitter.com/IndieTrainJam


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 23, 2017)

I think that they should think about getting a private car or two for their convention. In full disclosure I'm a PV person so if they charter I make money.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 23, 2017)

Is there any of the Dorm Coach Transition Cars even on the road?

It's February Amtrak has equipment sitting around, no real reason not to use. The only advantage would be a PV with a generator set.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 23, 2017)

Most PVs have a generator. And in some cases we've been forced to use them for extended periods of time


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 23, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> It's February Amtrak has equipment sitting around, no real reason not to use. The only advantage would be a PV with a generator set.


As I suspected, they used a full consist and treated it just like 830.


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## Train2104 (Feb 24, 2017)

Just for fun...


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## Triley (Feb 24, 2017)

So in other words....it's quite possible that they negotiated exclusive use of the train, much against what everyone earlier was thinking apparently since many called Amtrak out on not adding additional cars.

As TR said, hopefully they make it through.


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## bmjhagen9426 (Feb 24, 2017)

Triley said:


> So in other words....it's quite possible that *they negotiated exclusive use of the train*, much against what everyone earlier was thinking apparently since many called Amtrak out on not adding additional cars.
> 
> As TR said, hopefully they make it through.


Much like the same manner as the Safety Patrol Special. What else would you expect. It's a big group going to a big conference, just like the Safety Patrol Special is comprised of a big group going to a big trip. What I mean by a big group, is that the train was full of people from the group.

Train 6 is extremely late as of the time that Train2104 posted the snapshot of the status map, possibly due to the fallout and being goobered up in Donner Pass.


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## chakk (Feb 24, 2017)

There are 3 late eastbound CZ's currently on the road. The one furthest east near Omaha is running 19 hours late. A second near Winter Park, CO is running 9 hours late. And a third near winnemucca, NV is running 4 hrs late.

Trainjam is on time running westbound in Nebraska and is forecast to arrive at its final destination of Emeryville, CA one hour early on Saturday afternoon.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 24, 2017)

So it begins.

A) Amtrak is using the summer length trainset.

B) Amtrak may of add a lounge car.

C) The group seem to have book the full train.

D) The group did have some last minute coach seats open up. May or may not of been filled.

E) Per the tweets some are having a blast.

Still it was noted:

1) That sleeper ticket were still in demand days before it left.

2) The Train Jam as a whole sold out in 1hr 28 min.


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## snvboy (Feb 24, 2017)

LOTS of great photos and tweets this morning on their Twitter:

https://twitter.com/IndieTrainJam

Great reflection of the fun and energy of the group. Like I said before, I was just a random passenger in 2015 but the vibe of this group really made for a special trip on Amtrak.

Also a good Easter Egg on http://asm.transitdocs.com/today.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 24, 2017)

Another lounge was indeed added.


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## Triley (Feb 24, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So it begins.
> 
> A) Amtrak is using the summer length trainset.
> 
> ...


Take my hint, the train is not making any station stops to pick up/discharge passengers enroute.


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## Rover (Feb 24, 2017)

Love this picture


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## Rover (Feb 24, 2017)

The #5 that left Chicago 2/22 had several delays between Green River and Helper yesterday evening 2/23 and other delays this morning 2/24. Anyone know what the cause of the delays were, and if these delays can be expected for the Train Jan this evening???


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## chakk (Feb 24, 2017)

Rover said:


> The #5 that left Chicago 2/22 had several delays between Green River and Helper yesterday evening 2/23 and other delays this morning 2/24. Anyone know what the cause of the delays were, and if these delays can be expected for the Train Jan this evening???


That CZ #5 has lost an additional three hours since leaving SLC. Now 5 hours late at Winnemucca, NV.


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## chakk (Feb 24, 2017)

Trainjam is still running on time in western Colorado.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 24, 2017)

Rover said:


> The #5 that left Chicago 2/22 had several delays between Green River and Helper yesterday evening 2/23 and other delays this morning 2/24. Anyone know what the cause of the delays were, and if these delays can be expected for the Train Jan this evening???


FTI/Recrews/Obstructions. The usual. It is entirely possible these issues or other issues may occur on any route at any time. All you can do is keep chugging. So far, 5(23) is 42" early approaching PRO.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 25, 2017)

5(23) is 60" early out of WMM, which was a hot bed of delays. RNO is next.


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## Rover (Feb 25, 2017)

Watching the Truckee web cam, the Train Jam was 10 minutes late. The train did not stop at the station. I counted 2 engines and 10 other cars.

About 15 minutes before the Train Jam came through Truckee, 2 engines and a caboose came through, headed West. I could not tell if this was a snow plowing operation though.


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## neroden (Feb 25, 2017)

So now we have a second train which has degenerated into a charter service where regular passengers are excluded. But hey, it's been cancelled without notice for weeks due to weather disruptions anyway, so it's not like it was usable for regular passengers.

This is... not exactly what you want to advertise to Congress when saying that Amtrak provides vital mobility needs. I mean the money is great and all, but it's just screaming "We are not real scheduled transportation". It makes it difficult to advocate to preserve said train service. It's not quite as bad as three a week, but it's the same sort of problem.

The problem is not, of course, having a large group charter a bunch of cars. The problem is eliminating scheduled service for everyone else. Without so much as an alert, even. "No alternative transportation will be provided." In other words, if you want to travel, take a car or an airplane. It's not a message Amtrak should be sending.

I realize a lot of the problem is due to a car shortage. So fix that. But more of it seems to be an attitude problem.

I hope the charter paid a premium over the costs of buying out all the seats individually, to reflect the cost of the extra lounge and the cost of the dimunition of goodwill. If they paid $11 million, that's great, it was probably worth it for Amtrak. I Have My Doubts; the Safety Patrol students pay about $540K and not all of that goes to Amtrak.

The Silver Meteor is profitable before overhead, so I guess Amtrak can do what it likes with it. But frankly this makes me want to remove the federal subsidy for the CZ (on a non-allocated direct-costs-only basis, it's about $10.4 million). Why am I subsidizing charter operations?

It's enough to make me want to micromanage Amtrak. Remember there's that stupid "no discounts larger than 50% of peak fare" rider? I'd like to add a rider saying "Amtrak shall not suspend sales of tickets or transportation between any pair of stations for the benefit of private charter services". You know, I suspect Congress would be sympathetic.

There are starting to be a growing collection of these services: services which Amtrak treats as hobby services and not as transportation. So much so that they sometimes don't even bother to mention when they're cancelled. I don't like this trend. Maybe Wick can turn it around.


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 25, 2017)

What, Neorden wants to micromanage! What a surprise! (That's sarcasm, folks)


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 25, 2017)

neroden said:


> So now we have a second train which has degenerated into a charter service where regular passengers are excluded. But hey, it's been cancelled without notice for weeks due to weather disruptions anyway, so it's not like it was usable for regular passengers.


They are regular passengers. They just are part of a group. Groups ride Amtrak all year around and on a lot of routes. This group just happened to be larger than others.



neroden said:


> This is... not exactly what you want to advertise to Congress when saying that Amtrak provides vital mobility needs. I mean the money is great and all, but it's just screaming "We are not real scheduled transportation". It makes it difficult to advocate to preserve said train service. It's not quite as bad as three a week, but it's the same sort of problem.



Yes. Congress would hate the idea of a sold out train that traversed 2400 miles . I'm sure they prefer paying to run a train that is half empty along the route.



neroden said:


> The problem is not, of course, having a large group charter a bunch of cars. The problem is eliminating scheduled service for everyone else. Without so much as an alert, even. "No alternative transportation will be provided." In other words, if you want to travel, take a car or an airplane. It's not a message Amtrak should be sending.



Why do you need an alert? The train is running and why would there be an alert for a sold out train? Why would they schedule alternative transportation for a sold out train. the Adirondack sells out most Friday's and Sunday's in the summer. The Ethan Allen sells out on a lot of Fridays. Do passengers get an alert and alternate transportation for their sold out train? No, because that is all this is: A train that normally has room, but on this trip it doesn't and since the riders are end to end, they are treating it just like other trains that have no work and are discharging passengers. The premise is not that uncommon but you're not used to seeing it, particularly for such a long distance.



neroden said:


> I realize a lot of the problem is due to a car shortage. So fix that. But more of it seems to be an attitude problem.


We've covered this kind of thing before. Assuming they put together a special, the hosts are not required to run extra service. With the meltdown that was occurring out west, they would have canceled this move just as easily as they canceled the Reno Fun train. The passengers expecting that service had it pulled and there are no repercussions since it is not a scheduled train. It is extra service. At least this way, there was good chance the train could get through and there are penalties if it canceled for certain reasons.



neroden said:


> I hope the charter paid a premium over the costs of buying out all the seats individually, to reflect the cost of the extra lounge and the cost of the dimunition of goodwill. If they paid $11 million, that's great, it was probably worth it for Amtrak. I Have My Doubts; the Safety Patrol students pay about $540K and not all of that goes to Amtrak.



You're good at math and figures. Why don't you break down the average revenue per trip on this train and I'm sure that the people that can see how much revenue came from this train will say "higher or lower."

I'm willing to bet they made more money on this trip because the numbers on this train dwarf the numbers of riders on any single train along this route for months (and months) to come.

But, if it makes you feel better, they paid the extra staff and catering.



neroden said:


> The Silver Meteor is profitable before overhead, so I guess Amtrak can do what it likes with it. But frankly this makes me want to remove the federal subsidy for the CZ (on a non-allocated direct-costs-only basis, it's about $10.4 million). Why am I subsidizing charter operations?



Well, that is the ultimate question. Why does PhillyAmtrakFan have to subsidize riders in West Virginia? Why does Tennessee Traveler have to subsidize the costs of upgrading catenary in NJ that he'll likely not use? Why do I have to subsidize snowbirds moving their vehicles up and down the east coast to avoid the cold of winters in the NE and the heat of summer in the SE? Why is SarahZ subsidizing the Autumn Express?

This goes back to what is Amtrak? What can it do for people? What role does it serve for people? Is it essential travel or a joyride for gamers? it depends on your perspective but the gamers pay for the subsidy as well. So, if they decided to cash in once a year, I don't begrudge them. Who knows how much of that will become spill revenue? How many will ride again? How many will ride other routes, with their families? How much exposure is Amtrak getting from their twitter feed?



neroden said:


> It's enough to make me want to micromanage Amtrak. Remember there's that stupid "no discounts larger than 50% of peak fare" rider? I'd like to add a rider saying "Amtrak shall not suspend sales of tickets or transportation between any pair of stations for the benefit of private charter services". You know, I suspect Congress would be sympathetic.



I would suspect you'd be laughed at. What does that even mean? So, if the Au Pairs that used to show up monthly on the Vermonter reserve their space from EWR to STM results in sold out conditions at intermediate spots, that would meet the criteria you just stated. You're actually advocating turning done what has become repeat business with guaranteed revenue, hoping that every day passengers fill the void?

Congress would laugh at you because they are the ones that want Amtrak to explore new ways of making money and expanding opportunities..and this is one way. What started as a smaller group has emerged into a large group and if they start the tradition of showing up once a year, that is indeed good thing. Another example is the Autumn Express, which may cover its direct costs, but also wreaks havoc on other trains bu eliminating stops (ABE and NRK take a both) and causing sold out conditions on other trains since the equipment is diverted elsewhere. Same goes for the Denver Ski train, the Reno fun train, the Spencer train, the NJ Chamber Of Commerce, etc. They all impact other trains, but they all can lead to spill revenue and are (usually) guaranteed revenue.



neroden said:


> There are starting to be a growing collection of these services: services which Amtrak treats as hobby services and not as transportation. So much so that they sometimes don't even bother to mention when they're cancelled. I don't like this trend. Maybe Wick can turn it around.


I'm sure Wick, (for how ever long he hangs around) would like the numbers on this train. This is especially true as the leader of railroad, who no doubts sees the opportunity for repeat business and sold out conditions on a long distance train. This aren't rail buffs that are boarding this train. These people are at work and are using the train to work on their product. It is about the transportation and is consistent with the theme of being able to relax and work on the train. This group could have taken a plane but they chose to make a 2400 mile trip on a train...so they can work. It is nice to have that option and that is something you can take to people.

I'm willing to bet a true business person would like the idea of their product selling out for a change.


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## Rover (Feb 25, 2017)

Years ago, when I rode the city bus to work, one dark rainy winter morning, it was raining, and the scheduled bus that I would have liked to have boarded, just passed me by. You see, although it was scheduled, it was full that morning, without nary a seat, or even a standing space available. Sometime scheduled transportation gets sold out.

During Texas-OU weekend, good luck on trying to board the light rail at certain stops. The trains are likely full to capacity on their way to the Fairgrounds.

Sometimes regularly scheduled transportation gets sold out, for whatever reason.

As to Amtrak, until the US Govt. gets serious about long distance double-tracked rail, what do you expect??

Look at the European model, where there the passenger rail runs smoothly.

The political hold that the railway freight lines hold, will never be altered, and passenger rail, except in a few NE corridors, will just be on the back bench, forever, imo.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 25, 2017)

Train Jam arrive early.


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## KnightRail (Feb 25, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > So now we have a second train which has degenerated into a charter service where regular passengers are excluded. But hey, it's been cancelled without notice for weeks due to weather disruptions anyway, so it's not like it was usable for regular passengers.
> ...


Bravo! It's amazing that such a grand-slam success has to even be justified. The operation of this train was a big win.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 25, 2017)

The only other working plan would be to run it as a special train with either Amtrak equipment or PVs. But like Third Rail said BNSF and UP are not required to handle the train. But it would be guaranteed revenue as well.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 25, 2017)

Trains can and do sell out.

This group is now big enough to book a full length peak summer time trainset. There was a question of if any seats were available this year, and unlike early Train Jams, this year is No. They booked the full trainset.

So unlike the safety patrol which can't book early due to school board issues. This group can book 11 month and one day early before the tickets are even seen by the public.

Train sold out. It happens.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 25, 2017)

Going thur the Tweets.

Common issues were food service short coming.

Lack of showers.

Lack of flat sleeping.

Hopefully the organization will share feed back with Amtrak. A simple post trip survey would be sweet.


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## Train2104 (Feb 25, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Going thur the Tweets.
> 
> Common issues were food service short coming.
> 
> ...


Why would food service be an issue if the train has the same number of passengers onboard when it's sold out in the summer? The constant-snacking endemic to hackathons?

Given that there were coach seats at the end and roomettes sold out ridiculously early, it would make more sense for Amtrak to add more sleepers next year, charge the group more for them, and have the group pass the cost on to the rider. Heck, given the fact that the majority of the crowd is young people you probably don't even need extra attendants. When I took my first sleeper ride last year on the CZ in the transdorm, I never made use of the attendant's (personal) services, I just figured the bed out on my own. And in retrospect, that was probably a good idea, since getting everything out of the way to enable the beds to move was hard enough with one of us working and the other squeezing out of the way.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 25, 2017)

Train2104 said:


> Why would food service be an issue if the train has the same number of passengers onboard when it's sold out in the summer? The constant-snacking endemic to hackathons?


A) Few trains start full and stay full for entire trip.

B) Tweets are not very scientific.

Long lines for coffee, long lines for breakfast, and Food runs by passengers at stops, were mentioned

Standard issues on full trains. Things to work on.

Amtrak put some work into this train. Summer time train length. Extra Lounge. Pressure on the host (it seems).

Pressure to get rested crews. Even had a snow plow leading the way for a bit. Not truly certain but it seem someone in the chain of command want a good run for this group. It help they have a sponsored event, not just mob traveling.

So my OP was about get this group a great experience, and looks like they did. It does not mean it can be not be better next year. Or that there was nothing to improve upon.

.


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## west point (Feb 25, 2017)

This CAL Z situation really brings up the question of lack of equipment. Not enough equipment to run an extra section ? RR agreement and crew availability a question. Run extra equipment on rear / front of train . Probably front but what of Denver back in and may not be able to clear north end interlocking(s) ? EMY should be long enough ? What about any servicing needed enroute including 1000 mile inspection ?

Then the inability to cover the cancellations of CAL Z by SW Chief and Coast Starlight ? Here it is low travel season and Amtrak unable to meet any surge fleet needs ?


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 25, 2017)

Seaboard92 said:


> The only other working plan would be to run it as a special train with either Amtrak equipment or PVs. But like Third Rail said BNSF and UP are not required to handle the train. But it would be guaranteed revenue as well.





west point said:


> This CAL Z situation really brings up the question of lack of equipment. Not enough equipment to run an extra section ? RR agreement and crew availability a question. Run extra equipment on rear / front of train . Probably front but what of Denver back in and may not be able to clear north end interlocking(s) ? EMY should be long enough ? What about any servicing needed enroute including 1000 mile inspection ?
> 
> Then the inability to cover the cancellations of CAL Z by SW Chief and Coast Starlight ? Here it is low travel season and Amtrak unable to meet any surge fleet needs ?



These two are semi-related so I'll address them at the same time. A lack of a surge fleet does not mean that there isn't the ability to run an extra section nor does it mean an extra section is guaranteed revenue. At what point do you price yourself out of contention? Adding additional train may not only meet resistance with the hosts, but it may also hinder the groups ability to travel. One of the things that makes this train palatable to the group is it is an existing train. The crew is in place, the equipment is in place, the schedule is in place and the operating agreement is in place. It is one thing to spring for a few attendants. It is another to spring for 2400 miles of diesels, fuel, crews and host fees.

That may drive them away from the train. While some may say "so be it" and "if they want to take over an entire train, they should pay for the entire operation," you may have turned away years over future revenue. The seeds that were planted for this trip have germinated. Hopefully, it will blossom into a yearly tradition and you can have a train that is full, end to end.

Furthermore, there is still a limit on cars through Denver, so it isn't just a matter of adding additional equipment to an existing train.

It was definitely interesting watching this train progress. It was up an hour at its peak before running into the snowy areas. It fell behind due to the plowing operations observed by Rover.


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## Tennessee Traveler (Feb 25, 2017)

I not sure this was the full summer consist. When I observed the train on MH Cam as it departed Chicago it appeared to be the Winter consist(two sleepers and two coaches) with the extra SSL at the end. I am assuming this equipment will turn and be the CZ 6 departing Emeryville tomorrow 2/26.

Not related, but in watching the Galesburg Railroad Museum cams tonight the 6 hour late CZ 6 arriving today had three extra coaches at the end. I don't know if those coaches had passengers. Since the doors did not open in Galesburg stop, I assume they were dead heading back to Chicago.


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## Triley (Feb 26, 2017)

Tennessee Traveler said:


> I not sure this was the full summer consist. When I observed the train on MH Cam as it departed Chicago it appeared to be the Winter consist(two sleepers and two coaches) with the extra SSL at the end. I am assuming this equipment will turn and be the CZ 6 departing Emeryville tomorrow 2/26.


Very wrong. Transdorm, two sleepers, diner, lounge, three coaches, lounge.

And yes, it will be returning as 6(26). No the extra lounge will not be in service.


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## chakk (Feb 26, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Trains can and do sell out.
> 
> This group is now big enough to book a full length peak summer time trainset. There was a question of if any seats were available this year, and unlike early Train Jams, this year is No. They booked the full trainset.
> 
> ...


And it sold out in 30 minutes after the first coach seats and sleeper berths went on sale last November.


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## chakk (Feb 26, 2017)

Rover said:


> Years ago, when I rode the city bus to work, one dark rainy winter morning, it was raining, and the scheduled bus that I would have liked to have boarded, just passed me by. You see, although it was scheduled, it was full that morning, without nary a seat, or even a standing space available. Sometime scheduled transportation gets sold out.
> 
> Sometimes regularly scheduled transportation gets sold out, for whatever reason.
> 
> ...



Similar thing happened to me in the Colorado Rockies a few years ago. Although I had a confirmed ticket in hand, a Greyhound driver refused to let me board his bus to get to Denver for a flight home that evening. He said all seats were occupied and he would not permit me to sit in the aisle or stairwell. So, I caught a greyhound going the opposite direction 20 minutes later to Glenwood Springs, where I caught the CZ to my home state. And that bus driver let me ride for free.

In the case of Train Jam, I feel 100% certain that no passenger who held a confirmed seat on 5(23) was denied boarding. The train was SOLD OUT, and Amtrak web site said so in no uncertain terms. I am also certain that no Amtrak phone agent circumvented their own rules about SOLD OUT trains to provide a ticket to someone to board said SOLD OUT train.


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## Rover (Feb 26, 2017)

Why can't Amtrak accommodate the Train Jam with three engines to pull more sleepers. Isn't that what the CZ used to run back in the day anyway??? (I saw a freight train come through Truckee this afternoon with 9 engines..) I feel like Amtrak would just prefer the NW Corridor... but would like to dump all LD routes. The Govt. run passenger rail system in the US is not up to 1st world standards, is it??


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## chakk (Feb 26, 2017)

The rebuilt Denver station does not have platforms long enough to hold a train with three more passenger cars.

The train would have to be split in two in the yard and the two sections brought in to separate tracks.


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## Rover (Feb 27, 2017)

chakk said:


> The rebuilt Denver station does not have platforms long enough to hold a train with three more passenger cars.
> 
> The train would have to be split in two in the yard and the two sections brought in to separate tracks.


Infrastructure!! :angry2:


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 14, 2017)

Train Jam 2018 is booking the CZ leave Chicago on March 15th.



> Mark your calendars. Train Jam will return March 15-17, 2018. Tickets will go on sale Later this year!


Now this how you do it. Book the train before the tickets go on sale to the general public. If someone want to travel on March 15 they get a "Sold Out" message.


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## KmH (Mar 14, 2017)

Funny.

February '18 is the furthest in advance Amtrak.com goes as far as ticketing today from my desktop computer.

It won't show March '18. Typical I think of Amtrak's normal limit of booking only 11 months in advance.


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## CCC1007 (Mar 14, 2017)

KmH said:


> Funny.
> 
> February '18 is the furthest in advance Amtrak.com goes as far as ticketing today from my desktop computer.
> 
> It won't show March '18. Typical I think of Amtrak's normal limit of booking only 11 months in advance.


If Amtrak wanted to they can just fail to create the train in the normal inventory, a one day black hole where the special move happens...


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 14, 2017)

One think that group sales does not have to wait for the 11 month out rule. Block it now, and no worry.


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## Triley (Mar 14, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> One think that group sales does not have to wait for the 11 month out rule. Block it now, and no worry.


In fact it would make far more sense to do so, if you know you're taking up so much capacity.


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## chakk (Mar 14, 2017)

And if you want to ride it, you will have to watch the TrainJam social media sites for the date and time that tickets go on sale. Based on past years' experiences, the train will sell out in minutes!


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## RSG (Mar 20, 2017)

Okay kids, mark your calendars: Train Jam 2018 will happen March 15-17, 2018. "Tickets will go on sale later this year!"


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## JoeBas (Mar 20, 2017)

Assuming that there's an Amtrak to ride, by then, of course.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 15, 2017)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Train Jam 2018 is booking the CZ leave Chicago on March 15th.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know why this popped into my head, but you're correct. There is a complete block and the website shows sold out. Perhaps the group can lobby for more sleepers.


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## chakk (May 15, 2017)

And since there will appear numerous posts to the AU forum later in the year wondering why the CZ departing Chicago 15 March 2018 is already sold out, perhaps the webmaster could post a sticky note on the home page mentioning that the train is sold out and why.

Just wonderin' .....


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## Lonestar648 (May 15, 2017)

Do you think Amtrak has the inventory to add cars, especially if there is a high probability of the cars being sold out?


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## chakk (May 16, 2017)

Amtrak did add a second SSL to the 2017 train. They probably could add a few more sleepers or coaches to the 2018 train, if demand warranted.

But then, the management might resist doing that unless it involved moving some midwest cars to the west coast that would be needed there anyway for other reasons.


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## Lonestar648 (May 16, 2017)

If they could do it as part of west coast rotations in/out of Beech Grove, then maybe would work.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 16, 2017)

There is still the problem of Denver. Although things have gotten better, it is still restricted to a total of 14 pieces (up from 12.) That doesn't leave much for additional equipment, particularly if you have to add another diesel.


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## chakk (May 17, 2017)

If the train is sold out and all of the Train Jam passengers are boarding in Chicago, there is really no reason to stop in Denver, other than for crew change, watering cars, and the fresh-air break. So perhaps the 12-car limit could be stretched.


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## neroden (May 17, 2017)

chakk said:


> If the train is sold out and all of the Train Jam passengers are boarding in Chicago, there is really no reason to stop in Denver, other than for crew change, watering cars, and the fresh-air break. So perhaps the 12-car limit could be stretched.


Crew change can be done anywhere, the fresh-air break can be cancelled, but... adding water and removing sewage is kinda necessary. :-( And that requires actually entering the platform at Denver. Not only that, it requires *spotting the cars on the platform*.

I suppose they could split the train and spot half of the cars on the Ski Train platform for watering. That would raise the limit to maybe 24 cars... it would prevent RTD from doing any switching between the "west" and "east" halves of their commuter rail system during this time, but that's probably OK.

The extra time taken would probably be cancelled out by all the station stops being skipped.


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## CCC1007 (May 17, 2017)

chakk said:


> If the train is sold out and all of the Train Jam passengers are boarding in Chicago, there is really no reason to stop in Denver, other than for crew change, watering cars, and the fresh-air break. So perhaps the 12-car limit could be stretched.


There is one big reason, fuel, which happens on an integrated fuel pad in the station complex...
the black "matting" under the locomotives in this photo.


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