# Amfleet III car idea



## Caldor (Feb 28, 2022)

Hello all. New here. Sorry if this has been posted before.

I've always had cool ideas for possible future Amfleet III cars, so let's get started. Everyone welcome to throw in their ideas.

As many of us Amtrak travelers (and fans) know, the Amfleet coach cars are literally... well almost jetliner fuselages but built much stronger with heavy duty stainless steel. The interiors and exteriors very much resembles the interior and partly the exterior of an aircraft. But, a bit outdated.

My newly Amfleet III cars _concept_ will keep the same jetliner fuselage design, heavy duty stainless steel exterior the same and will have the following new features:
(_Unlike the Amfleets I and II which the former has narrow windows and the latter slightly larger ones, phase III will stick with the larger ones._)

*Amfleet III Coach Car Short Distance*
Same seat configuration as Amfleet I
Plug outlets w/ 2 usb ports at every seat

*Amfleet III Coach Car Long Distance*
Same seat configuration as Amfleet II
Same curtain set up
Plug outlets w/ 2 usb ports at every seat

*Amfleet III Cafe Car*
Same Amfleet I Cafe Car configuration. Amcafe is nice, so I'd keep that same design. Just need a hot & ready toaster for them buns...
Same serving station but Dunkin' Donuts style. _Bread toaster hot & ready._ Nuked up burgers from a microwave tastes nasty on the NEC. I have not yet experienced a better prepared burger on other routes with a real Dinner car. (a must on the list)
Amfleet III food servers can now toast the buns and _I guess microwave the meat patty_ but hey, toasted bun makes a better frozen burger!

*Amfleet III Business Class Car*
Not familiar with Amtrak's business class car but from what I've seen from traveling back from Saratoga, business class car is the last car, leather seats? It looked dark in that last car but I could not go back there, so that was my best visual. Maybe keep the same? Maybe have private booths like jetBlue offers? Again, I'm not familiar with business class or that purpose...

*Amfleet III Lounge Car**
Special party lounge car for reserved parties
Special lounge car booked by reservations. This lounge car has all can accommodate certain special requests made by the party host....store kegs of beer, bottles of Hennessy.... you get it. such as how many bottled water, sodas, takeout boxes, napkins, condiments and plastic cups will be needed. BYOB and food
Party Lounge Car will be available to select* Amtrak's stations 
Lounge Car has comfy furniture, multiple big screens and your private party and can accommodate up to 50 guests. Guests can control the interior lighting, use the personal intercom which is only connected to the lounge car

Now listening to The Everly Bros. - Dream


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## daybeers (Feb 28, 2022)

Nice starting list! I highly doubt Amtrak will create an Amfleet III though. They have already ordered cars from Siemens that will almost surely be their Venture model currently used by Brightline and rolling out to Amtrak's Midwest services ordered by the Illinois DOT and California services ordered by the California DOT.

On one hand, I'll be a little sad that the Amfleets are going away since they've been an Amtrak staple for so long, but once the Ventures are out I'll be ecstatic to not be cramped in a purposely small profile railcar using a design that really has no business being a railcar due to the large gaps between the car and platform and small luggage racks. Everything rattles, the windows are SO tiny, their doors try to crush you when you're waiting to board or alight, the bathrooms are small, they're really not that great accessibility-wise, the vestibules get snow in them, and the doors fail when it's too cold.

I imagine Amtrak will do some sort of compromise between the seats in the Brightline Ventures and the seats in the Midwest Ventures: narrow each seat slightly so the aisles are much wider, but have more recline and comfort than the Midwest seats.

I also imagine the replacements for Amfleet IIs will also be Siemens Venture cars with similar differences between the current I and IIs: footrests, legrests, and slightly more legroom due to fewer seats per car. I bet both the short- and long-distance coaches would have a window blind system to replace the maintenance and cleaning headache that are the curtains.


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## jis (Feb 28, 2022)

@daybeers I believe you are correct. The days of Amtrak designing custom car shells, especially for single level cars, are behind us. They will buy off the shelf products. As for furnishing inside, that is where they can differentiate in a big way, if they so wish. So no more Amtubes.


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## PVD (Feb 28, 2022)

BC on Amfleet can be a split cafe with 2+1 seating at one end cafe at the other, or the full AM-1 BC car typically used on the NEC. 2 different animals.


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## TheCrescent (Feb 28, 2022)

Caldor said:


> Hello all. New here. Sorry if this has been posted before.
> 
> I've always had cool ideas for possible future Amfleet III cars, so let's get started. Everyone welcome to throw in their ideas.
> 
> ...


I’m all for creativity so I give you an A+.
But I am counting down the days until Amfleets are all in the Great Coach Yard in the Sky. I dislike the small windows mostly. So please, no more Amfleets ever.


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## daybeers (Feb 28, 2022)

PVD said:


> BC on Amfleet can be a split cafe with 2+1 seating at one end cafe at the other, or the full AM-1 BC car typically used on the NEC. 2 different animals.


I think business class should always be in a separate car moving forward. The trains that are too small to have a cafe generally shouldn't have business class, though I know this happens on the Empire Service.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 28, 2022)

daybeers said:


> cramped in a purposely small profile railcar using a design that really has no business being a railcar due to the large gaps between the car and platform and small luggage racks. Everything rattles, the windows are SO tiny, their doors try to crush you when you're waiting to board or alight, the bathrooms are small, they're really not that great accessibility-wise, the vestibules get snow in them, and the doors fail when it's too cold.



They're really not that bad. I don't find them cramped, the luggage racks are plenty big, plus they have a retraining rail to keep the luggage in the rocks. The gaps between the car and the high-level platforms are only a problem with wheelchairs (and indeed, the new cars should eliminate this flaw.) The only reason things rattle and the doors don't work right is because these cars are almost 50 years old; believe me, they didn't rattle in 1975. The windows are small, but I've never had any problem seeing out of them, though the row in the center of the car with no windows at all is a flaw. The bathroom size is fine, and there are two in each car, the accessible bathroom is plenty large, and the regular one is a lot larger than most bathrooms on airplanes. By the way, one thing that we can expect from any new cars is fewer restrooms, as the Venture cars and the new Acelas seem to have only one per car.


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## daybeers (Feb 28, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> They're really not that bad. I don't find them cramped, the luggage racks are plenty big, plus they have a retraining rail to keep the luggage in the rocks. The gaps between the car and the high-level platforms are only a problem with wheelchairs (and indeed, the new cars should eliminate this flaw.) The only reason things rattle and the doors don't work right is because these cars are almost 50 years old; believe me, they didn't rattle in 1975. The windows are small, but I've never had any problem seeing out of them, though the row in the center of the car with no windows at all is a flaw. The bathroom size is fine, and there are two in each car, the accessible bathroom is plenty large, and the regular one is a lot larger than most bathrooms on airplanes. By the way, one thing that we can expect from any new cars is fewer restrooms, as the Venture cars and the new Acelas seem to have only one per car.


maybe we disagree then. Other railcars on the international market and even in the U.S. are leagues better than Amfleets in my opinion.

I think the gap between the car and the platform is a problem for everyone, it doesn't matter if you have luggage or no, mobility issues or you're a marathon runner. My partner slipped and her leg went between the car and the platform at Providence last week. Bruises all up and down. Not fun and quite ridiculous.

Maybe you're right nothing rattled when they were new 50 years ago, but as long as I've been using them they have.


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## John819 (Mar 1, 2022)

Just remember when it comes to interiors that all cars must be ADA compliant, which means 40" aisles.


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## jis (Mar 1, 2022)

John819 said:


> Just remember when it comes to interiors that all cars must be ADA compliant, which means 40" aisles.


Brightline aisles are 32" and they are ADA compliant. Where did you get the 40" from?


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## Caldor (Mar 1, 2022)

Oh boy.... A long time ago I heard that Amfleets may not come back (I took it as three fingers full of Corn Flakes), but if this is really true and that Amtrak are heading to that Siemens Venture route, what will the future of Amtrak traveling be like? That's a major degradation of the biggest U.S. railway long distance traveling. Just my personal opinion... looks explains a lot. So no more boarding a fuselage, now boarding a fusebox. This new Venture looks like a commuter train. Oh well, whatever..

Will start building ideas on a hopefully not to be future Venture coach cars...


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## ButFli (Mar 1, 2022)

If folks are choosing long distance transport according to what it looks like then they’d choose a jet airliner over an Amfleet train that looks like a jet airliner.

Amtrak needs to differentiate itself from airlines by offering what they don’t - spacious interiors and big windows for the view.


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## jis (Mar 1, 2022)

Caldor said:


> Will start building ideas on a hopefully not to be future Venture coach cars...


The floor space available is exactly the same in an Amfleet or Venture car frame. Ventures have a significantly higher ceiling. Why would the layout of a Coach differ significantly between the two beats me. Why would not the Amfleet proposal above work in Venture cars too, as long as they meet the current FRA specified ADA requirements for passenger rail equipment?


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## west point (Mar 1, 2022)

Originally liked look of Amfleets from the outside. However, once inside them my tall frame soon disliked them. Especially when on a train with both Amfleets and regular sized cars. So, no more Am fleet inside style cars!!!


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## Cal (Mar 1, 2022)

Caldor said:


> That's a major degradation of the biggest U.S. railway long distance traveling.


May I ask how? I see the ventures as a new, modern replacement that is up to the worlds standards with great big windows and a spacious interior. Hopefully they go with fairly large and comfortable seats for the long distance replacements.


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## MisterUptempo (Mar 2, 2022)

If we are going to play Amfleet Replacement Trainset Fantasy League, I would like to direct your attention to the Hinotori Limited Express trainsets that ply the Kintetsu line between Osaka and Nagoya. These newer trains have been running that route for about two years, and are comprised of 6 or 8 car sets.

The Kintetsu Line is slower than the Shinkansen (A little over 2 hours on Kintetsu vs 49 minutes on the fastest Shinkansen), but offers lower fares and times are still very competitive with driving.

Premium 2 + 1 all-leather seating features power recline and an insane 51-inch seat pitch. A true luxury product. Standard seats are 2 +2 with a 46-inch seat pitch. The seats are all self-contained in a hard shell, which, along with the massive pitch, affords a very generous recline. I would imagine that capacity may be sacrificed with such a large pitch. But it's possible a product like this could tempt more people to take the train, so the lower capacity could be offset by higher load factors.

The trainsets also offer on-board storage lockers, a mini (and, yes, _mini _clearly applies here) lounge and vending machines, which I know will raise the dander of many on these boards. But a trainset outfitted like this looks like a good match on many of the routes where the Amfleets are being replaced.

Considering Amtrak's agreement with Siemens, it would not be possible to ever see these trainsets running on the Keystone or the NE Regionals, but it shouldn't be unrealistic to encourage Amtrak to incorporate some of the best features of these Hinotori cars into the maybe-Venture/maybe-something-similar trainsets they are acquiring.

What follows are two videos, one is a brief overview of the Hinotori seating and the other is a trip review from a standard seat.

ETA - Here is a link to another video, this time from the premium seats. YouTube would not allow this video to be linked directly.


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## Caldor (Mar 2, 2022)

ButFli said:


> If folks are choosing long distance transport according to what it looks like then they’d choose a jet airliner over an Amfleet train that looks like a jet airliner.
> 
> Amtrak needs to differentiate itself from airlines by offering what they don’t - spacious interiors and big windows for the view.



I'm a frequent flyer myself. I love flying but I learned that I love traveling by Amtrak even more. I don't know what the deal with bigger windows is, but perhaps I must experience it for myself.



Cal said:


> May I ask how? I see the ventures as a new, modern replacement that is up to the worlds standards with great big windows and a spacious interior. Hopefully they go with fairly large and comfortable seats for the long distance replacements.



Sorry, it's just my personal opinion. As a long time traveler with Amtrak, long distance (NY to Canada) and will soon try the Texas route with the sleeper ... I'm used to seeing Amfleets everywhere. Those are totally different from commuter trains city to city I've been through (Boston, PA, New York, etc). The fuselage look doesn't mean it's supposed to look like an airplane but it represents itself completely different from any local commuter or subway trains. Seeing beautiful Amfleets straight up tells you this train is long distance. It looks comfortable from the outside to inside.

Amfleets phasing out and that we're in a new era and that we need new looks. I highly agree on that! Because I'm old school, these new modern looks will take me a little time to get used to but I'm sure I'll like it. We can't stay old forever, gotta bring in new looks and vibes! Let us place our ideas on these future Ventures!


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## toddinde (Mar 2, 2022)

MisterUptempo said:


> If we are going to play Amfleet Replacement Trainset Fantasy League, I would like to direct your attention to the Hinotori Limited Express trainsets that ply the Kintetsu line between Osaka and Nagoya. These newer trains have been running that route for about two years, and are comprised of 6 or 8 car sets.
> 
> The Kintetsu Line is slower than the Shinkansen (A little over 2 hours on Kintetsu vs 49 minutes on the fastest Shinkansen), but offers lower fares and times are still very competitive with driving.
> 
> ...



I’m sold! Let’s do it. They look beautiful. The Japanese do things so well. I love the Amfleets, but it’s time for something new. I hope they have a new life maybe as a reserve fleet for heavy travel seasons and special movements. Amtrak needs that. Or south of the border bringing rail passenger service back to Mexico.


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## tgstubbs1 (Mar 2, 2022)

toddinde said:


> hope they have a new life maybe as a reserve fleet for heavy travel seasons and special movements. Amtrak needs that.



If Amtrak starts up some night trains, like they have in Europe, could they be refurbished with lay flat seats? Not much to see out the window at night.


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## Cal (Mar 2, 2022)

Caldor said:


> I don't know what the deal with bigger windows is, but perhaps I must experience it for myself.


Easier to enjoy the views (such as the beautiful views along the Hudson River and in Vermont, New Hampshire, etc) and more natural light is allowed in.




MisterUptempo said:


> If we are going to play Amfleet Replacement Trainset Fantasy League, I would like to direct your attention to the Hinotori Limited Express trainsets that ply the Kintetsu line between Osaka and Nagoya. These newer trains have been running that route for about two years, and are comprised of 6 or 8 car sets.
> 
> The Kintetsu Line is slower than the Shinkansen (A little over 2 hours on Kintetsu vs 49 minutes on the fastest Shinkansen), but offers lower fares and times are still very competitive with driving.
> 
> ...



Amtrak is going for wider isles to accommodate wheel chairs so I doubt we'd be able to see seats that large.


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## west point (Mar 2, 2022)

New Amfleet design cars? Quote the raven "never more".


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## Caldor (Mar 3, 2022)

MisterUptempo, wow that looks very nice! Now I see the big difference. 

Guys, what if the new Venture cars could come longer for more passengers and other configurations ... or is this the final product? Excited about this either way. See how my mind quickly changed about the Amfleets being replaced by the Ventures? Thank you all.


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## jis (Mar 3, 2022)

Caldor said:


> MisterUptempo, wow that looks very nice! Now I see the big difference.
> 
> Guys, what if the new Venture cars could come longer for more passengers and other configurations ... or is this the final product? Excited about this either way. See how my mind quickly changed about the Amfleets being replaced by the Ventures? Thank you all.


individual cars will not be longer than 85', which is the US standard and they will be in compliance with the PRIIA Committee developed specifications for the next generation cars, which also specified 85' long.


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## jis (Mar 3, 2022)

MisterUptempo said:


> Considering Amtrak's agreement with Siemens, it would not be possible to ever see these trainsets running on the Keystone or the NE Regionals, but it shouldn't be unrealistic to encourage Amtrak to incorporate some of the best features of these Hinotori cars into the maybe-Venture/maybe-something-similar trainsets they are acquiring.
> 
> What follows are two videos, one is a brief overview of the Hinotori seating and the other is a trip review from a standard seat.
> 
> ETA - Here is a link to another video, this time from the premium seats. YouTube would not allow this video to be linked directly.



Amtrak should definitely consider those seats in the "luxury interior" video for its long distance service, using a version that is as wide as possible in a 2x2 configuration for coach with the ADA prescribed aisle width.

Using 26"-27" wide in 2x1 configuration in LD BC would be wonderful too.


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## Caldor (Mar 3, 2022)

Agreed. Also dim the lights for the long distance coach cars.

Great that these are 85'. They looked like 60' in those pictures. Definitely a good replacement and good choice by Amtrak.

The new Brightline Amcafe should have Amtrak's oversized dome car windows for an exhilarating experience.


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