# As If I Didn't Use My Ticket



## sechs (Aug 19, 2008)

I'm wondering if anyone else has run into this before, and how it panned out:

I took a multisegment trip almost two months ago. The first segment was the ACE train, which runs as an Amtrak thruway. Every other segment of the entire trip has posted, except that one.

I contacted AGR last week about it, and the rep put the issue in for investigation. I call back today to find out that there's no record that I used that ticket. Since I certainly did end up in Stockton that day to catch the Stockton-Stockton thruway bus (which posted for 100 points, thank you), this seems a bit silly. The situation is now in "for furthur investigation."

I suppose that I can send in a copy of my ticket stub, but what would that prove anyhow?


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## AlanB (Aug 20, 2008)

Sounds a lot like what happens when one rides NJT between Philly and Atlantic City. Those points never post automatically either. I'm not sure that NJT actually turns the tickets over to Amtrak or not.

As for your ticket stub, while it doesn't totally prove that you rode the train (even if the conductor punched a hole in it), it does prove that you didn't turn the ticket in for a refund at least. So that does count for something IMHO.


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## wayman (Aug 20, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Sounds a lot like what happens when one rides NJT between Philly and Atlantic City. Those points never post automatically either. I'm not sure that NJT actually turns the tickets over to Amtrak or not.


Yup, I've got two trips on the AC-line where the Paoli legs have posted but not the NJT legs. Next week will be a month since dates of travel, at which point I'll contact AGR and get the ball rolling on that. Fingers crossed! Of course, I've also got to _find_ the stubs... they're in a not-yet-unpacked box somewhere


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## sechs (Aug 20, 2008)

In your situations, what ends up happening. Do you have to privide the stubs?


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## AlanB (Aug 20, 2008)

I'll let you know in about 4 weeks, since i"ll be taking my first ride on the AC line this Saturday.


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## PaulM (Aug 20, 2008)

This thread motivated me to check my AGR account. For a 5 segment trip my wife and I recently took,

QCY - CHI - SEA and EVR - MSP - CHI - QCY

the CHI - SEA (the one worth the most points) and MSP - CHI segments did not post to my account. And the MSP - CHI segment did not post to my wife's account. When I called the AGR number, the rep said that the conductor did not scan the tickets; so unless I still had the tickets, it was basically tough s _ _ t. After trying to justify that policy for a while, he transferred me to a supervisor. The latter agreed with me when I assured him that my wife wouldn't have gotten on the train for SEA without me, and agreed to credit my account for the missing segments.

Now I realize that crediting the account in this situation would require fiddling with a computer program that the first rep wouldn't have access to. But why pretend that there was absolutely no solution?

Now in both of the cases mentioned above, the conductors were facing big problems that might account for them forgetting to scan the tickets. However, it also makes me wonder if this wouldn't be ripe for a scam. To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen the conductor actually scan the tickets when I gave them to him, like the airlines do. After all, you can't tell the conductor, I won't give you the ticket until you scan it.

You might laugh, but there are businesses whose Ph d's main job is to figure out the optimal percentage of the time to deliberately not scan the tickets, what percentage of the AGR members would check right away on the posting, what percentage would call to complain, what percentage would give up after being told that it was too bad, and what were the odds of a class action suit? This is called "gotcha capitalism".

I also realize there will always be someone whose response to a rant like this is: “If your are stupid enough not to save your tickets, then you deserve whatever you get, sort of like “if you are stupid enough to believe a mortgage broker, then you deserved to lose your house”. However, in this case, I would claim that it is reasonable to assume that when you purchase you tickets with an AGR number, your account is credited; and if you cancel them and get a refund, the points are deducted. Certainly, more logical than the scanning system.


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## AlanB (Aug 20, 2008)

The conductor's don't scan the tickets at the present time. Amtrak is working on a program that will allow them to do so, but it's probably still more than a year away from being implimented. So you got read a line by that AGR clerk, he/she either has no clue about how things work or just wanted to give you some excuse.

No doubt the ticket did not get scanned once it was turned in, but the conductor has nothing to do with that.


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## PaulM (Aug 20, 2008)

AlanB said:


> The conductor's don't scan the tickets at the present time. Amtrak is working on a program that will allow them to do so, but it's probably still more than a year away from being implimented. So you got read a line by that AGR clerk, he/she either has no clue about how things work or just wanted to give you some excuse.
> No doubt the ticket did not get scanned once it was turned in, but the conductor has nothing to do with that.


Sounds to me like a Rube Goldberg scheme either way. Why does Amtrak care if you actually traveled, only that you paid for the ticket and didn't try to get a refund.


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## AlanB (Aug 20, 2008)

PaulM said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The conductor's don't scan the tickets at the present time. Amtrak is working on a program that will allow them to do so, but it's probably still more than a year away from being implimented. So you got read a line by that AGR clerk, he/she either has no clue about how things work or just wanted to give you some excuse.
> ...


Because the program is supposed to reward people who actually travel on Amtrak. However, because Amtrak provides methods to transfer points in and out of other rewards/frequent flyer programs, there is a lot of abuse by people just looking to shift their points around and sometimes actually increase the number of their points through transfers.

So with a requirement that one actually has to ride Amtrak to transfer points, it's getting more critical that they ensure that you actually did take the ride and didn't just by a cheap ticket to circumvent the rules that prevent people from using the program as a clearing house.


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## RRrich (Aug 21, 2008)

Can I buy a ticket and give it to someone else to use so I get the AGR points?


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## PaulM (Aug 21, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Because the program is supposed to reward people who actually travel on Amtrak. However, because Amtrak provides methods to transfer points in and out of other rewards/frequent flyer programs, there is a lot of abuse by people just looking to shift their points around and sometimes actually increase the number of their points through transfers.


I'm afraid this went over my head; and I don't claim to have any idea what transfer points are. But I still don't understand why Amtrak would worry if I spent $800 (pick a number) on sleeping car tickets that I didn't use (nor ask for a refund).

First of all, the incidence of that type of behavior would be rare. After all, AU posters seem to brag when they achieve 10 cents on the dollar as a reward. Thus I would expect that the difference between rewarding people for paying for tickets vs. "actual travel on Amtrak" would be very small, unless I'm missing something here.

Secondly, if I were a no-show, couldn't Amtrak sell the sleeper space either down the line or as an on-board upgrade, thus doubling their money?


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## AlanB (Aug 21, 2008)

RRrich said:


> Can I buy a ticket and give it to someone else to use so I get the AGR points?


No. You can only earn points for trips that you personaly take, and even then only for the amount that your passage cost. In other words, if you and your SO traveled together in a sleeper, you would earn points for your rail fare and the cost of the sleeper. You would not earn points for your SO's rail fare. Only they can earn points on their rail fare, assuming that they have an AGR account.

Now, all that said if you have an AGR credit card, then you could earn points for buying someone an Amtrak ticket on your credit card from Chase. But you still won't get points for the actual travel on that ticket.


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## AlanB (Aug 21, 2008)

PaulM said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Because the program is supposed to reward people who actually travel on Amtrak. However, because Amtrak provides methods to transfer points in and out of other rewards/frequent flyer programs, there is a lot of abuse by people just looking to shift their points around and sometimes actually increase the number of their points through transfers.
> ...


First, transferring points refers to the ability to take your Amtrak AGR points and transfer them to say Continental airline's frequent flyer program or Hilton Honors rewards program. You can transfer points between those programs and AGR.

One of the worst abuses of the transfer program occurred just at the end of last year. Amtrak and Choice Hotels got together when then announced the deal in the first place and offered a bonus. If you moved points between AGR and Choice, you got a free bonus. Move 10,000 points out of AGR and you ended up with 30,000 Choice points. People quickly signed up for AGR accounts and started moving as many points through AGR and into Choice, simply to increase the number of points. That's not what the program was setup for. It was setup to be a rewards program for those who actually ride Amtrak. So Amtrak initiated the rule that you must actually ride Amtrak in order to transfer points out to cut down on this type of abuse.

Now turning to your example, I agree that most people aren't going to spend $800 and then not ride and not request a refund. And in that case it probably wouldn't hurt AGR to lay out the points if indeed that did happen. But the other side of the coin is someone buying a $10 ticket which under the basic rule would only earn 20 AGR points. However, because of the minimum amount rule, that $10 would earn 100 AGR points. People might be far more willing to throw away $10 to earn those points, especially if it meant that they now qualify for either Select or Select Plus status because of that and/or they can now transfer points in and out of Amtrak. And one can find tickets for even less than 10 bucks.

It's also necessary to understand that while the program is sponsored by Amtrak and carries its name, Amtrak doesn't actually handle the day to day operations of the program. They contract that out to a third party company, currently Carlson Travel Services (although that's changing this month). So the easy way to keep track of things is for Amtrak to simply transfer a file containing all tickets that get scanned upon collection to AGR. Then AGR takes that data to figure out who gets what points.

If you don't actually travel, then it opens up all kinds of problems. AGR now has to basically go by hand to make sure that you haven't refunded the ticket before they could post the points. And since you can technically buy a basic ticket for tomorrow, not travel, and then show up 11 months later and get a refund for that ticket; people could claim that they traveled, get the points posted, and then 5 months later show up at an Amtrak station for a refund. Granted that doesn't work in the case where you've booked a sleeper, as that money paid for the sleeper is lost. But you can still get a refund on your railfare months later. And yes, they could resell the sleeper down the line, but not the coach seat since they won’t know that you’re missing.

So to prevent these issues, the rule is that you must actually travel. And the proof of that travel is your ticket stub. Considering how lenient Amtrak is when it comes to redeeming awards by comparison to the airlines, I'd say that actually having to travel is a small price to pay for the benefits.


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## PaulM (Aug 21, 2008)

Ok you win. I promise I’ll give up after a few more comments. I guess I’ll have to be satisfied with razzing the conductor to be sure to scan my ticket.



AlanB said:


> One of the worst abuses of the transfer program occurred just at the end of last year. Amtrak and Choice Hotels got together when then announced the deal in the first place and offered a bonus. If you moved points between AGR and Choice, you got a free bonus. Move 10,000 points out of AGR and you ended up with 30,000 Choice points.


Do I get this straight? Choice gives free lodging and Amtrak get money? If Amtrak finds this inappropriate, why not just rethink all the silly aspects of the point swapping agreements that lead to the gamesmanship?



AlanB said:


> It's also necessary to understand that while the program is sponsored by Amtrak and carries its name, Amtrak doesn't actually handle the day to day operations of the program.


First of all that’s no excuse. Subcontracting something out doesn’t absolve Amtrak of responsibility, especially weirdness. Secondly, under the conductor scanning scheme, Amtrak is involved in day-to-day operations.



AlanB said:


> If you don't actually travel, then it opens up all kinds of problems. AGR now has to basically go by hand to make sure that you haven't refunded the ticket before they could post the points.


Under my scheme, you basically have 3 transactions: 1) purchase ticket => post points, 2) refund ticket price => deduct points, and 3) redeem points => deduct points AND flag all purchases for which points are used as non-refundable. A slight change in the computer program; but I’m sure the required data is already stored. Of course, the two completely separate systems (Amtrak’s and AGR’s) would have to talk to one another. But have to do that now.

Now, exchanging my financial analyst hat for an operations analyst one, I’ve got questions about how the conductor scanning system will work?

1) Will each station have a scanner similar to the airlines, will they bolt the scanner to the dining car table where conductors usually hangs out, give them portable devices about the size of computers some European conductors carry to calculate on-board fares, or all of the above?

2) Will the data be a) transmitted by wireless to the AGR people, b) copied to a thumb drive (or I could sell Amtrak a large quantity of floppy drives?) and mailed, or c) printed out and then the report mailed?

If the answer to the previous question is a) or b), will the data be entered automatically, or will it be printed and then reentered by hand?

How do conductors feel about more paper work?

How many on-board staff will be cut or real diners decommissioned to pay for the hardware, software, communications, training, maintenance, etc?

As Einstein is reputed to have said, All great scientific and engineering breakthroughs are simplifications. It looks like problems caused by a complicated system (AGR swapping and whatnot) is to be fixed by adding more complexity (conductors scanning tickets). But of course creating complexity may the whole point. One of the reason for the Pentagon’s $100 toilet seats, or whatever, is the whole thing is too complex for anyone to understand.


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## AlanB (Aug 24, 2008)

PaulM said:


> Ok you win. I promise I’ll give up after a few more comments. I guess I’ll have to be satisfied with razzing the conductor to be sure to scan my ticket.
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> ...


First, if you move AGR points from Amtrak to Choice, then two things happen. One, you point balance at AGR goes down and it goes up in the Choice program. Two, Amtrak pays Choice X dollars for said transfer of points. In the case of the bonus, I believe although I'm not positive, that Amtrak was paying for some of the bonus and Choice was paying for the rest.

As for rethinking things, that's what they did. That's why there is now a requirement that one must actually ride Amtrak before one can transfer points out of AGR.



PaulM said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > It's also necessary to understand that while the program is sponsored by Amtrak and carries its name, Amtrak doesn't actually handle the day to day operations of the program.
> ...


I wasn't suggesting that it was an excuse. I was simply trying to say that things aren't as simple as they might appear.



PaulM said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't actually travel, then it opens up all kinds of problems. AGR now has to basically go by hand to make sure that you haven't refunded the ticket before they could post the points.
> ...


First, I don't think that the computer systems really talk to one another. I believe that AGR is simply sent a transfer file, that they then use to update their records.

As for your system, while it might be nicer for the AGR member, it's a lot more work on Amtrak's and AGR's side of things. Right now things are simple. No travel, no ticket scanned, no points. Therefore no need to worry about people buying a bunch of tickets to rack up points, quickly using them or transferring them out, and then refunding the tickets leaving AGR to collect on a negative account balance.



PaulM said:


> Now, exchanging my financial analyst hat for an operations analyst one, I’ve got questions about how the conductor scanning system will work?
> 1) Will each station have a scanner similar to the airlines, will they bolt the scanner to the dining car table where conductors usually hangs out, give them portable devices about the size of computers some European conductors carry to calculate on-board fares, or all of the above?
> 
> 2) Will the data be a) transmitted by wireless to the AGR people, b) copied to a thumb drive (or I could sell Amtrak a large quantity of floppy drives?) and mailed, or c) printed out and then the report mailed?
> ...


When Amtrak completes the new system, the conductor will have a hand held scanner and will scan the tickets right at your seat or room.

Data will update most likely through the onboard wireless credit card system now installed on most trains.

And the conductors should have less paperwork when all is said and done.

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I've been a bit busy of late and this took more time than I had.


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## RRrich (Aug 24, 2008)

AlanB said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> > Can I buy a ticket and give it to someone else to use so I get the AGR points?
> ...


If I buy a ticket in my name and give it to my friend so he can travel and he uses it, why won't I get the points??

I understand that I SHOULDN'T, but that doesn't mean I WOULDN'T. With their current procedures, why wouldn't I get the points?


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## PRR 60 (Aug 24, 2008)

RRrich said:


> If I buy a ticket in my name and give it to my friend so he can travel and he uses it, why won't I get the points??
> I understand that I SHOULDN'T, but that doesn't mean I WOULDN'T. With their current procedures, why wouldn't I get the points?


If the ticket purchased by you and in your name is accepted on the train, then you will get the points. The only chance of that not happening is if ID is requested on the train which, quite frankly, is unusual. The odds are your ticket will be accepted without question. While I might have some ethical issues with doing that, it would probably work just fine.

In my opinion, the requirement to actually ride Amtrak to keep your account alive and to permit outbound transfers is dumb. The reason Amtrak got burned on the One Pass to AGR to Choice to Southwest caper was because the exchange ratio was bad and it simply invited abuse. They were giving away the store and people came and took it. Their answer was not to be smarter about how they set-up the exchanges, but to penalize all AGR members including the vast majority who use AGR as intended. Take me, for example. This year, I've travelled over 3600 miles on Amtrak, all paid. I've earned AGR points for every trip. Am I permitted to transfer out to CO or Choice or any other partner? No. I don't have an AGR MC, I am not Select, so I guess in Amtrak eyes I'm not a good enough customer. Dumb.

I hope that the new AGR contractor will bring some much needed common sense to the AGR program. And 24/7 customer service. And better elite perks. And a rationalized award structure.


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