# Coast Starlight SUSPENDED entire route (1-24-08)



## daniel3197 (Jan 22, 2008)

Heads up for those who have not seen this OFFICIAL Amtrak notice here it is.

This is supposed to begin with train 14 Los Angeles departure of Jan 24th (thursday) and

train 11 scheduled Seattle departure on Jan 25th (friday).

I myself fear that this may follow the pattern of the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans

with a de facto discontinued service.

We shall see what happens. I really hope I can be proven wrong about my fears.

Strangely the official advisory wrong about the location of the slide closure.

The slide is actually located NORTH of Chemult and SOUTH of Eugene in Oregon.

This info courtesy of Gene Poon from the "All Aboard" Yahoo Group TUes Jan 22, 2008 at 8:09AM PST :

---- Daniel

================================================== =

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/All_.../message/160143

This is the advisory about cancellation of all Coast Starlight service

after Friday. All the misspellings and the geographical faux pas are

included for your reading pleasure:

AMTRAK WESTERN REGION SPECIAL ADVISORY=21ST JANUARY 2008 5:10PM

FOLLOWING A MUDSLIDE SOUTH (SIC) OF CMO, AND SUBSEQUENT LINE

CLOSURE TRAIN 11 & 14 WILL BE SEVERELY DISRUPTED OVER THE NEXT FEW

WEEKS. BELOW IS A SUMMARY OF THE PLAN AGREED BY AMTRAK AND UPRR.

TRAIN 14 CANCELLED BETWEEN LAX-SEA, 24TH JAN TO 31ST JAN INCLUSIVE

TRAIN 11 CANCELLED BETWEEN SEA-LAX, 25TH JAN TO 1ST FEB INCLUSIVE

** NO ALTERNATE TRANSPORTATION IS OFFERED IN LEIU OF CANCELLED

TRAINS**

TRAIN 14(21) TERMINATES KFS, BUS KFS-PDX, TRAIN PDX-SEA

TRAIN 14(22) TERMINATES KFS, BUS KFS-PDX, TRAIN PDX-SEA

TRAIN 14(23) TERMINATES KFS, BUS KFS-EUG, TRAIN EUG-SEA

TRAIN 14 BETWEEN LAX-SEA WILL NOT OPERATE UNTIL 1ST FEBRUARY

TRAIN 11(21) TRAIN SEA-PDX, BUS PDX-KFS, TRAIN KFS-LAX

TRAIN 11(22) TRAIN SEA-PDX, BUS PDX-KFS, TRAIN KFS-LAX

TRAIN 11(23) TRAIN SEA-EUG, BUS EUG-KFS, TRAIN KFS-LAX

TRAIN 11(24) TRAIN SEA-EUG, BUS EUG-KFS, TRAIN KFS-LAX

TRAIN 11 BETWEEN SEA-LAX, WILL NOT OPERATE UNTIL 2ND FEBRUARY

**NO ALTERNATIVE TRANSPORTATION IS BEING OFFERED FOR CANCELLED

TRAINS**

THESE ALTERATIONS ARE SUJECT TO CHANGE, AND TRAVEL TIMES WILL BE

LONGER


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## AlanB (Jan 22, 2008)

Apparently someone at Amtrak didn't read the special advisory, since it appears that Arrow has been blanked through half of February. One can't book any dates prior to the 16th of February.


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## D.P. Roberts (Jan 22, 2008)

daniel3197 said:


> I myself fear that this may follow the pattern of the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans with a de facto discontinued service.


Wow. So you think travel between KFS and SEA will be discontinued, or the whole line? I thought the CS was supposed to be one of Amtrak's better lines, and since they're in the middle of refurbishing the Pacific Parlour Cars, they seem to be investing in the line.

Either way, I guess I'd better wait until mid February before booking a trip on the CS!


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## AlanB (Jan 22, 2008)

D.P. Roberts said:


> daniel3197 said:
> 
> 
> > I myself fear that this may follow the pattern of the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans with a de facto discontinued service.
> ...


I'm pretty sure that we're not looking at the same time of thing, especially since in this case it would be the entire route that's being cancelled. And that would not make any sense considering that Amtrak has just spent big money in preparation for upgrading the service this spring.

And terminating service in KFS would increase Amtrak's expenses, since they'd have to setup maintenance facilities in KFS. In the case of the Sunset, Amtrak didn't need new facilities in NOL. It would also force Amtrak to bus pax in the other direction who are connecting from the EB to the CS.


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## sechs (Jan 22, 2008)

They should run it to OKJ or EMY and turn there. Seems to me that they've done something like that before.


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## GG-1 (Jan 22, 2008)

Something wrong here, Cancel a route totally when ?80% is operable. What are they not saying?


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## the_traveler (Jan 22, 2008)

sechs said:


> They should run it to OKJ or EMY and turn there. Seems to me that they've done something like that before.


I agree! LAX-EMY would make a lot of sense - they have bases in both LAX and EMY, they could easily turn the equipment AND it may even be on time! 

But "*making sense*" and "*Amtrak*" - can those be used in the same sentence? :lol:


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## AlanB (Jan 23, 2008)

the_traveler said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > They should run it to OKJ or EMY and turn there. Seems to me that they've done something like that before.
> ...


I'm not sure if they have room in the yard for the train, since they already have to deal with the CZ and the Capital Corridor trains. Plus one now has to put up the crew for the night in a place where Amtrak doesn't have a long term contract for said rooms. And then there is the question of just how many people would be served by running the train between those two cities vs. how many continue past that point.

By cancelling the train outright, even though it won't make some people happy, all Amtrak has to do is issue refunds. If they run the train part way, then they have to provide alternate service beyond EMY.


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## wayman (Jan 23, 2008)

This mudslide is the second major disaster to hit the CS in the past few months (the other being the huge flood). I haven't paid particular attention to the Coast Starlight, or Pacific Northwest weather/disasters, in the past. Is it highly unusual to have even one event of this magnitude affect the CS, much less two in succession? Or are mudslides an annual occurrence, like the state of California catching fire?


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## Falco (Jan 23, 2008)

*UPDATE:*

Since I have reservations on #11 from LAX->SJC on the 23rd and a return on the 28th, this is of concern to me.

I called Amtrak and spoke to Kimberly who was very nice and helpful, she made a few calls and said that as of now, the train will run from LA and terminate in Chemult, OR. and vica-versa, so if your within those stations, you *should* be in the clear. This is as of 11:18PM JAN 22 Pacific Time.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 23, 2008)

AlanB said:


> ...Plus one now has to put up the crew for the night in a place where Amtrak doesn't have a long term contract for said rooms. And then there is the question of just how many people would be served by running the train between those two cities vs. how many continue past that point.
> By cancelling the train outright, even though it won't make some people happy, all Amtrak has to do is issue refunds. If they run the train part way, then they have to provide alternate service beyond EMY.


Amtrak overnights the Zephyr crew in Oakland, so crew accommodations would not be an issue. Amtrak can truncate a route and not provide alternate transportation. They did just that with the Zephyr a couple of years ago when it ran only between Chicago and Denver for about a month. No alternate transportation was offered west of Denver

However, losing the Starlight between LAX and OKJ is all that critical. From Amtrak's point of view, they can offer LAX-Bay Area service via bus and the San Joaquin's. The Surfliner serves as far north as San Luis Obispo. The Capitols as far south as San Jose. The only hole is between SLO and SJC, and that is not that big a deal. I think it would have been preferable to continue to operate a train on the coast between LAX and Oakland, even if coach only, but it is not a huge issue.


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## MrFSS (Jan 23, 2008)

A little more info about the mud-slide is *HERE*.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 23, 2008)

Falco said:


> *UPDATE:*Since I have reservations on #11 from LAX->SJC on the 23rd and a return on the 28th, this is of concern to me.
> 
> I called Amtrak and spoke to Kimberly who was very nice and helpful, she made a few calls and said that as of now, the train will run from LA and terminate in Chemult, OR. and vica-versa, so if your within those stations, you *should* be in the clear. This is as of 11:18PM JAN 22 Pacific Time.


I would check again about your return trip. While your northbound #14 (not 11) will operate LAX to SJC on 1/23, the return on the 28th is shown as cancelled.


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## wayman (Jan 23, 2008)

MrFSS said:


> A little more info about the mud-slide is *HERE*.


Oof! 3,000 feet of track under 20 feet of mud, trees, and snow? At least floodwater drains away on its own, albeit at a slow rate, and it's possible to erect temporary embankments around track or major highways and pump water out of an area (or at least I guess that's possible). Where do you put something on the order of hundreds of thousands of cubic yards of solid muck? Does it all have to get taken out one truck at a time, regardless of where it eventually goes? That sounds a lot more time- and effort-intensive than clearing out floodwater. (Recovering from major flood damage, that takes ages, of course. But physically removing the water so transportation lines can operate seems like it would be much easier.)


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## rtabern (Jan 23, 2008)

I hope it's up and running by early March... 

I'm going CHI-PDX-LAX then.


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## wayman (Jan 23, 2008)

wayman said:


> Where do you put something on the order of hundreds of thousands of cubic yards of solid muck? Does it all have to get taken out one truck at a time, regardless of where it eventually goes?


Actually, I suppose the more efficient solution (transportation ton-mile-wise, at least) would be for the UP to run special "muck trains". Bring in several backhoes, and push trains of gondolas up the track to the edge of the muck, load 'em up, pull 'em out. No road access required at all if you can bring the backhoes in on flatcars. Assuming logistics of this would work for the UP, of course, but I assume this line is a freight corridor and is something of a priority for them...?


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## Falco (Jan 23, 2008)

Strange, my first true long distance trip and all this mess happens.

Currently on the #14 and its raining and its beyond awesome. and other than no #11 to come home to, its an awesome trip. Since just being on this, I know that a lot of air travel will be replaced.


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## Eris (Jan 23, 2008)

Is this mentioned anywhere on amtrak.com?


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## PRR 60 (Jan 23, 2008)

Eris said:


> Is this mentioned anywhere on amtrak.com?


Sadly, no. One of Amtrak constant failings, seemingly impossible to correct, is their inability to provide any timely information about service disruptions. The Starlight cancellations have been posted on the Arrow CRS for station agent and travel agent information, but the public website makes no mention of the total suspension of service on one of Amtrak's most popular long distance trains.
Here in the east we know the most timely and detailed information about service problems on the NEC comes not from Amtrak but from the commuter agencies that share the corridor. If a person is travelling Amtrak on the Corridor, a quick look at the NJ Transit, SEPTA, MARC, Metro North or MBTA web pages will tell you far more about any possible delays than looking at the Amtrak page.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 23, 2008)

There are some aerial photos of the slide posted at another rail discussion site, and this is one huge mess. I'm a registered engineer who does geotechnical design (soils, rock and foundations) in conjunction with my structural role. Based on those photos and what I know of the soils and geology of the area, this slide will take a long, long time to be cleaned up. It appears unstable as it sits and may have placed the UP roadbed in the area in jeopardy of being completely lost.

My thoughts are with the UP civil engineers and geologists who are faced with this calamity. I would not know where to start other than to assemble an army of pile drivers, grout injectors, and earth movers and hope for dry weather and a lot of luck. They have to stabilize the entire side of a mountain above and below the tracks before even attempting to re-establish the roadbed and rail. I hope I'm overly pessimistic, but from what I see we are talking weeks, not days, and hopefully only weeks, not months.


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## AmtrakWPK (Jan 23, 2008)

> is this mentioned anywhere on amtrak.com?Sadly, no. One of Amtrak constant failings, seemingly impossible to correct, is their inability to provide any timely information about service disruptions. The Starlight cancellations have been posted on the Arrow CRS for station agent and travel agent information, but the public website makes no mention of the total suspension of service on one of Amtrak's most popular long distance trains.


Here is what is on the Amtrak web site front page right now:



> News Coast Starlight Service Disruption — Train Service Suspended Due to Massive Mudslides Across Railroad Tracks North of Chemult, Oregon
> ---And here's the actual notice in full: ---
> 
> Service Alert: Coast Starlight Service Disruption — Train Service Suspended Due to Massive Mudslides Across Railroad Tracks North of Chemult, Oregon
> ...


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## Guest_redsandal_* (Jan 23, 2008)

We are traveling this Saturday, leaving ABQ and arriving in LAX on Sunday morning, to p/u the CS to Santa Barbara. Just got a call an hour ago from the Amtrak agent telling us that the CS is cancelled and we will use the Pacific Surfliner.


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## WhoozOn1st (Jan 23, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> There are some aerial photos of the slide posted at another rail discussion site, and this is one huge mess. I'm a registered engineer who does geotechnical design (soils, rock and foundations) in conjunction with my structural role. Based on those photos and what I know of the soils and geology of the area, this slide will take a long, long time to be cleaned up. It appears unstable as it sits and may have placed the UP roadbed in the area in jeopardy of being completely lost.
> My thoughts are with the UP civil engineers and geologists who are faced with this calamity. I would not know where to start other than to assemble an army of pile drivers, grout injectors, and earth movers and hope for dry weather and a lot of luck. They have to stabilize the entire side of a mountain above and below the tracks before even attempting to re-establish the roadbed and rail. I hope I'm overly pessimistic, but from what I see we are talking weeks, not days, and hopefully only weeks, not months.


Oh, come on. Just import a bunch of Chinese laborers, give them shovels, wheelbarrows, and black powder, and the line would be open in a matter of days. Ask the Big Four!


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## sechs (Jan 23, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> However, losing the Starlight between LAX and OKJ is all that critical. From Amtrak's point of view, they can offer LAX-Bay Area service via bus and the San Joaquin's. The Surfliner serves as far north as San Luis Obispo. The Capitols as far south as San Jose. The only hole is between SLO and SJC, and that is not that big a deal.


Right. You ride the bus between San Jose and SLO and tell me it's "not that big a deal."


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## sechs (Jan 23, 2008)

WhoozOn1st999 said:


> Oh, come on. Just import a bunch of Chinese laborers, give them shovels, wheelbarrows, and black powder, and the line would be open in a matter of days. Ask the Big Four!


Racist comments aside, do you really thinking blowing-up mud is going to get somewhere?


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## WhoozOn1st (Jan 24, 2008)

sechs said:


> WhoozOn1st999 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, come on. Just import a bunch of Chinese laborers, give them shovels, wheelbarrows, and black powder, and the line would be open in a matter of days. Ask the Big Four!
> ...


Not racist. That's the way it was done, pal. No pile drivers, grout injectors, armies of mechanical earth movers. Maybe you need to read a bit about how the line was built.


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## wayman (Jan 24, 2008)

WhoozOn1st999 said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > WhoozOn1st999 said:
> ...


Oh, I'm jus' a mud-miner

From the hills a' North Caroliner

I been minin' mud since I was barely three!

Oh, there ain't any mud any finer

Than the mud a' North Caroliner

So come on, baby, an' mine some mud with me! 

[chorus is completely irreproducible in text, sorry]


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## singwith (Jan 24, 2008)

WhoozOn1st999 said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > WhoozOn1st999 said:
> ...



Yea, every time you ride on trains, you better thank them. I bet you do.


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## D.P. Roberts (Jan 24, 2008)

This cancellation may help with the Pacific Parlour Car project. I don't know how many cars Beech Grove can refurbish or what the time frame is, but it might help get the train ready on time for the May relaunch if they don't have to rotate the cars out one at a time. At least something good may come of this!


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## PRR 60 (Jan 24, 2008)

WhoozOn1st999 said:


> Not racist. That's the way it was done, pal. No pile drivers, grout injectors, armies of mechanical earth movers. Maybe you need to read a bit about how the line was built.


They did not have to deal with wet volcanic soils that had just slipped down the mountain and were still unstable, plus the employer back then was not particularly in touch with employee safety concerns. At that time losing a few workers was simply a cost of business, and not a particularly major cost either.

The issue here is not the volume of material that has to be moved but the continuing instability of the soil mass. Once a large landslide takes place a surface called a slip plane is established. That is the point where the moving soil slid over the stationary material underneath. In the immediate aftermath of a slide the slip plane remains very weak. Volcanic soils get very slippery when they are wet making the slip plane even weaker. Until the adhesion between the materials at the slip plane gets to the point that the slide is stable there continues to be a risk that the slide will move again maybe even more massively. You simply cannot put people onto the slide while that risk exists. The Union Pacific geologists will have to make the call that the slide is stable before the earth moving can begin. That could be today, next week, or next month.


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## Trogdor (Jan 24, 2008)

Hopefully, they'll be able to take care of this sooner rather than later. The route through Oregon (in fact, I think in the very location where this mudslide occurred) is, IMO, the most scenic part of the Coast Starlight's route.

I mean, sure, riding along the Pacific Ocean in southern California is nice and all, but traveling up through the mountains is simply beyond beautiful.


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## WICT106 (Jan 24, 2008)

It makes me wonder what would have to happen in order for Amtrak to re route the train via BNSF's Interior Gateway, through Bieber and then Bend, OR ? One can always dream, can't one?

I'm not being that serious, of course.


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## Rafi (Jan 24, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> There are some aerial photos of the slide posted at another rail discussion site, and this is one huge mess. I'm a registered engineer who does geotechnical design (soils, rock and foundations) in conjunction with my structural role. Based on those photos and what I know of the soils and geology of the area, this slide will take a long, long time to be cleaned up. It appears unstable as it sits and may have placed the UP roadbed in the area in jeopardy of being completely lost.
> My thoughts are with the UP civil engineers and geologists who are faced with this calamity. I would not know where to start other than to assemble an army of pile drivers, grout injectors, and earth movers and hope for dry weather and a lot of luck. They have to stabilize the entire side of a mountain above and below the tracks before even attempting to re-establish the roadbed and rail. I hope I'm overly pessimistic, but from what I see we are talking weeks, not days, and hopefully only weeks, not months.


Can you provide a link to the photos?

On a related note, this brings me to a question about the cancellation of the Starlight that's been bouncing around in my head. I think I know the answer, but I'm hoping someone on the board might know for sure:

In looking at Google Earth, I'm seeing a rail line that heads south from Eugene, through Medford, and then over to Dunsmuir. In fact, NARP, in its recent "Grid and Gateway" proposal, identifies this route as one of the new routes the nation needs to have in regular passenger service. If UP's engineers and geologists determine that it's going to take months and not weeks to get the track rebuilt, how likely is it that we may see a detoured Coast Starlight run the route through Medford, skipping stops in Chemult and Klamath Falls with passengers being bussed to/from there, and picking the line back up in Dunsmuir? It seems to be so straightforward to me that I'm guessing it's a matter of bad track conditions on the Medford line. Am I guessing correctly?

Rafi


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## wayman (Jan 24, 2008)

Rafi said:


> how likely is it that we may see a detoured Coast Starlight run the route through Medford, skipping stops in Chemult and Klamath Falls with passengers being bussed to/from there, and picking the line back up in Dunsmuir? It seems to be so straightforward to me that I'm guessing it's a matter of bad track conditions on the Medford line. Am I guessing correctly?


Looking at Google Maps, there's about a twenty-mile stretch near Mccredie Springs (just past Hills Creek Lake) where the track does one heck of a series of hairpin turns:







What's the grade there? And that's not far south of Oakridge (named as the location of the mudslide here). Was the slide in that stretch? Is there a map of exactly where it was?

Or, translated onto the Transamerica map, you're basically floating the idea of building the (western) two-segment flat connection between Portland and Medford to replace the (eastern) two-segment mountain connection:






(Sure, in real life the two routes don't meet again until Dunsmuir, and the Medford route probably isn't completely flat either. But it sort of translates.)

If Medford ever became a stop on the CS, that would help towards the (pretty much impossible, but fun to think about) goal of collecting Amtrak ticket stubs with every Transamerica city (so that set of ticket stubs could be used in place of the cards that come with the game) :lol: Well, and I'm guessing Medford is a larger market than Chemult and Klamath Falls combined, by a long shot.


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## Rafi (Jan 24, 2008)

wayman said:


> Looking at Google Maps, there's about a twenty-mile stretch near Mccredie Springs (just past Hills Creek Lake) where the track does one heck of a series of hairpin turns:
> ...
> 
> What's the grade there? And that's not far south of Oakridge (named as the location of the mudslide here). Was the slide in that stretch? Is there a map of exactly where it was?


I hadn't seen those hairpins on first glance. Quite a view there, to be sure. Google Earth reports that those hairpins negotiate a climb from 900 to 1300 feet, which as the crow flies, would be over the course of a mile if you were to run it straight, which is necessitating the weaving.

Oakridge is about 110 miles due north of those hairpins. It's on a completely different stretch of track.

Rafi


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## wayman (Jan 24, 2008)

Rafi said:


> Oakridge is about 110 miles due north of those hairpins. It's on a completely different stretch of track.
> Rafi


There's an Oakridge on that map, in the upper left, just ten miles up the track from the hairpins. That's not the Oakridge we're talking about?


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## Rafi (Jan 24, 2008)

wayman said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > Oakridge is about 110 miles due north of those hairpins. It's on a completely different stretch of track.
> ...


My mistake. I thought you were pointing to ANOTHER set of hairpins on the Medford line down to Dunsmuir. You're right... the Oakridge we're talking about is the one in your screen grab from Google Maps. As to where exactly the slide happened (whether it's on the hairpin or not), I don't know...


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## Bill (Jan 24, 2008)

I am scheduled to be on the Starlite next wednesday from Portland to LA. Acording to Amtrak and my travel agent they are going to bus us from Portland to Klamath Falls OR where we will pick up the train to head south.


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## AlanB (Jan 24, 2008)

Bill said:


> I am scheduled to be on the Starlite next wednesday from Portland to LA. Acording to Amtrak and my travel agent they are going to bus us from Portland to Klamath Falls OR where we will pick up the train to head south.


Well according to the press release by Amtrak, and the information in Arrow, there is no train running at all. And a quick check of the online booking system shows that the train on the 30th is still blocked out between PDX and LAX, as well as between intermediary stations. The busing plan was only for the first 3 to 4 days of the disruption. After that the plan has always been to not run anything and to not provide any alternative transportation.

This plan was worked out by Amtrak and UP, so it would take an agreement between both of them to change things.

So I would stay on top of this and have alternate plans if this is a trip that you must take.


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## Bill (Jan 24, 2008)

My travel agent said the Amtrak rep knew all about the plan,I am still a little leary after reading the press release. I leave saturday on the Cardinal to Chicago to pick up the Empire Builder to Portland and the Starlite to LA...Like you say I better keep checking with Amtrak. This a vacation trip,from LA I take the Sunset and Texas Eagle and work my way back to Chicago and the Cardinal.

Thanks


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## PRR 60 (Jan 24, 2008)

Rafi said:


> Can you provide a link to the photos?


http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1585274

Trainorders required a paid membership to view photos full size.



Rafi said:


> On a related note, this brings me to a question about the cancellation of the Starlight that's been bouncing around in my head. I think I know the answer, but I'm hoping someone on the board might know for sure:
> In looking at Google Earth, I'm seeing a rail line that heads south from Eugene, through Medford, and then over to Dunsmuir. In fact, NARP, in its recent "Grid and Gateway" proposal, identifies this route as one of the new routes the nation needs to have in regular passenger service. If UP's engineers and geologists determine that it's going to take months and not weeks to get the track rebuilt, how likely is it that we may see a detoured Coast Starlight run the route through Medford, skipping stops in Chemult and Klamath Falls with passengers being bussed to/from there, and picking the line back up in Dunsmuir? It seems to be so straightforward to me that I'm guessing it's a matter of bad track conditions on the Medford line. Am I guessing correctly?


The rail line from Eugene to Dunsmuir is the Siskiyou Line of the Central Oregon and Pacific RR (CORP). This line is severed due to tunnel structural problems. Even without the tunnel issues, the line is to slow for passenger trains and does not have clearance for Superliner cars.


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## Bill (Jan 24, 2008)

Ok then, I just got off the phone with a very nice Amtrak rep,there will be no bus service or trains running till the 3rd of Feb. on the Starlite.....first agent musta had some wrong info or did not dig deep enough.Now I have to scramble to find a way make connections in LA on the 2nd of feb.


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## AlanB (Jan 24, 2008)

Bill said:


> Ok then, I just got off the phone with a very nice Amtrak rep,there will be no bus service or trains running till the 3rd of Feb. on the Starlite.....first agent musta had some wrong info or did not dig deep enough.Now I have to scramble to find a way make connections in LA on the 2nd of feb.


I am sorry to hear that, but I half expected that.  Better to find out now though, than while you were onboard the Empire Builder and stuck in Seattle without any alternatives.


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## Bill (Jan 24, 2008)

I plan on calling a few more times with different agents to see what they have to say before I try to book a flight to LA...all I wanted was a kick back ,relax and see the country trip without driving other than the six miles to and from Union Terminal here in Cincinnati.

Thanks Alanb for the condolances


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## printman2000 (Jan 24, 2008)

Bill said:


> I plan on calling a few more times with different agents to see what they have to say before I try to book a flight to LA...all I wanted was a kick back ,relax and see the country trip without driving other than the six miles to and from Union Terminal here in Cincinnati.Thanks Alanb for the condolances


I too am sorry for the mess. I can only imagine my big rail vacations getting messed up. Make sure you let us know what you do. You might consider renting a car and driving the leg.


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## Bill (Jan 24, 2008)

Printman,thought about a car but after looking at the news I 5 looks like a total mess....it might be alright next week but need to plan now so I think( hate the thought) flying is my only answer. Will call Amtrak a time or two and have travel agent call to see what she comes up with..should have a postive answer tonite,will keep ya posted.


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## AlanB (Jan 24, 2008)

Bill,

Don't limit your searches to LA. You can also consider Sacramento and the San Fran area, as Amtrak can still get you from that area down to LA. So I would suggest looking at all options, both for price and ease of travel, before making a final decision.


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## WhoozOn1st (Jan 24, 2008)

rmadisonwi said:


> Hopefully, they'll be able to take care of this sooner rather than later. The route through Oregon (in fact, I think in the very location where this mudslide occurred) is, IMO, the most scenic part of the Coast Starlight's route.
> I mean, sure, riding along the Pacific Ocean in southern California is nice and all, but traveling up through the mountains is simply beyond beautiful.


I heartily agree, and in my view the ocean views are overrated. Maybe that's because I live on the coast and can see the Pacific any day of the week.

The mountain scenery along the CS route must be particularly spectacular these days, and it's a real shame that some people are gonna have to miss it.


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## daniel3197 (Jan 24, 2008)

Rafi said:


> In looking at Google Earth, I'm seeing a rail line that heads south from Eugene, through Medford, and then over to Dunsmuir. In fact, NARP, in its recent "Grid and Gateway" proposal, identifies this route as one of the new routes the nation needs to have in regular passenger service. If UP's engineers and geologists determine that it's going to take months and not weeks to get the track rebuilt, how likely is it that we may see a detoured Coast Starlight run the route through Medford, skipping stops in Chemult and Klamath Falls with passengers being bussed to/from there, and picking the line back up in Dunsmuir? It seems to be so straightforward to me that I'm guessing it's a matter of bad track conditions on the Medford line. Am I guessing correctly?
> Rafi


Absolutely NO way that the former SP Siskiyou Line could possibly be used for any Amtrak detours.

That is because this rail line is a very ANCIENT allignment that has many sharp hairpin curves and is crooked.

Yes on paper it does look like the ideal detour but sadly the physical plant is NOT up to modern rail standards.

It would easily take 24 HOURS plus for any detour to go from Eugene OR to Dunsmuir, CA via Roseburg OR and Medford OR.

I do NOT think that Amtrak Superliner cars would fit thru most tunnels on this Siskiyou Line sadly.

Look at this webpage for an idea about the headache that rail detours over the SIskiyou Line would face:

http://siskiyou.railfan.net/prototype/history2.html

http://siskiyou.railfan.net/prototype/history1.html

---Daniel


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## Bill (Jan 24, 2008)

Two Amtrak reps later and our travel agent we deciced to fly from Portland to LA and spend an extra day there. At least now the Amtrak reps know the Starlite has been cancelled.Off to Chicago at 1:03 am saturday for 12 days of Amtrak adventures


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## sechs (Jan 25, 2008)

WhoozOn1st999 said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > WhoozOn1st999 said:
> ...


Obviously, you don't even realise what you've said.

What's the saying? Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt?


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## WhoozOn1st (Jan 25, 2008)

sechs said:


> WhoozOn1st999 said:
> 
> 
> > sechs said:
> ...


I've never said I'm not a fool. I may well be. But thanks for removing all doubt about yourself.


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## daniel3197 (Jan 26, 2008)

Sadly this is all about a very cynical way to save money for the Amtrak Corporation at the expense of the passengers and employees.

Amtrak apparently has a far too bloated management structure.

I think this post from another forum explains pretty well what is going on.

Somehow I do not think that Amtrak (mis) management would try this stunt on the Northeast Corridor.

In this posting Deely is one of those greedy managers.

I think it is now time for the NON NEC National Amtrak system to pull out of Amtrak and find an operator that actually cares about service and not greed.

Yes if Amtrak followed past history they would be operating stub trains at least from Sacramento south to LA and Socal.

They did this back in early January 2004.

(January 3, 2004 )

---- Daniel

======================================================

Date: January 25, 2008 21:03

Re: RAILPAC Speaks out about Coast Starlight Closure

Author: AMW Engr

This is a knee jerk reaction by Deely and Company because they hate their employees so much.

It is painfully obvious that they are not interested keeping the trains running.

They are looking to save money. PERIOD! Well, how about getting rid of layer after layer of management?

Where are all the on board service managers? Surely they are not sitting home without pay.

To make matters worse, Amtrak has decided to punish its employees who regularly work the starlight by not allowing them displacement rights or if they do elect to displace a junior employee, the Carrier has refused to pay them to qualify.... this is in direct contrast to what all the agreements state.

The current regime in the Pacific Division will stop at nothing. The only thing they are concerned with is how they can stick it to their employees.

The heck with running trains... Well they can save a whole bundle if they parked each and everyone of them. Then the only thing they would need funding for is management salary. 1.33 billion should do.


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## D.P. Roberts (Jan 26, 2008)

Amtrak (belatedly) had an announcement on their site about the closure. Now it's gone - it's not even in the archive, or on the CS route page. What's up with that? What about people who were planning a trip next week, & MIGHT check the site & get that kind of info?


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 26, 2008)

The current Amtrak management ultimately reports to the President of the United States. If the next President cares more about Amtrak, things may get better.

As for deaths of workers, I'm pretty sure the Big Dig in Boston had a few construction worker deaths, and it certainly had the death of a motorist as a result of poor construction. I'm not entirely convinced that managers of large construction projects are more concerned about safety than they used to be.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 26, 2008)

Bah. If the managers were as greedy as they should be, they'd be spending all their time and effort keeping this thing running. Amtrak doesn't operate for profit. They'd like to, but so far they haven't made dime one. So what the managers of Amtrak have as a job is to justify the existence of said job and the company they do it for. The way to justify Amtrak is to keep building ridership and make its existence as essential to the people as possible. The government would have a difficult time killing the NEC runs. If all their trains were so ridden, there would be no possibility of killing it because of the number of constituents who would be pissed off, even if they lost $500 a passenger.

Amtraks priorities is:

1) Build ridership

2) Cut costs

2) Improve customer service

In approximately that order.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 26, 2008)

Cutting costs has the potential to hurt ridership, unless it's done very carefully and in a very restrained fashion. On the other hand, they've probably tried to cut costs enough times in the past that I'd be surprised if there was much room to cut costs further without hurting ridership; they've probably already cut all the costs that are truly unnecessary costs.

And isn't improving customer service part of building ridership?

Beyond that, more/better rolling stock and improved track infrastructure is probably what will build ridership. That costs money.

That, and perhaps getting the frieght railroads to prioritize Amtrak better, which may not end up costing taxpayer money. On the other hand, it might decrease frieght capacity slightly, which might ultimately lead to the public paying a bit more for shipping and/or breathing slightly less clean air if it forces more stuff to go by truck.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 26, 2008)

Update from the Union Pacific:



> *Updated Friday, January 25, 2008 - 2:00 p.m.*
> Crews continue to clear the debris from mudslides that took out Union Pacific main line track south of Eugene, Oregon last Saturday. The mudslide took out approximately 3,000 feet of mainline track, covering it in 20 feet of mud, snow and downed trees.
> 
> Over the past several days, engineering crews have built a road to reach the impacted area and work continues around the clock to remove mud and debris so that track repairs can be made. Restoration is expected to continue for at least another 10-14 days.


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## AlanB (Jan 26, 2008)

daniel3197 said:


> Somehow I do not think that Amtrak (mis) management would try this stunt on the Northeast Corridor.


We've gone round and round on this forum about the management at Amtrak and people's perception of how well they do or don't do their jobs, so I'm not going to comment on that again at this time beyond stating that most of us have absolutely no idea one way or the other about what they really do or don't do and whether or not their pay is justified, or whether management is bloated. Although I will state that David Gunn did dismiss serveral hundred managers during his tenure, so it can't be that bloated anymore.

Now all that said, the above statement is totally false. Amtrak intends to shut down the NEC sometime this spring to replace the bridge at New London. So this isn't directed at the employee's in the western division, and Amtrak is making the tough call on the NEC. I would also point out that the cancellation of service wasn't just Amtrak's idea, UP played a part in this decision. We actually don't know if Amtrak tried to keep the train running to KLA, such that they could bus for the last portion and were shot down by UP.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 26, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> Cutting costs has the potential to hurt ridership, unless it's done very carefully and in a very restrained fashion. On the other hand, they've probably tried to cut costs enough times in the past that I'd be surprised if there was much room to cut costs further without hurting ridership; they've probably already cut all the costs that are truly unnecessary costs.
> And isn't improving customer service part of building ridership?
> 
> Beyond that, more/better rolling stock and improved track infrastructure is probably what will build ridership. That costs money.
> ...


That all depends on what kind of train you are on and what customer service is to you. On the Regional, operating the snack bar, answering the occasional passenger question, and trying to keep the train on time are enough to satisfy most people. Oh, and keeping the bathroom clean.

On an overnight trip, when I am paying for a sleeper, what will satisfy me is a whole different order of magnitude. I want a polite, friendly, and diligent sleeping car attendant who will turn down my bed at the appropriate time, and fix it up again the next morning, and wake me at a given time if I so request it done. And perhaps perform the odd service here or there in line with their duties. And I have had a few who have gone above that expectation, and I am more than satisfied, such that I tip more than my usual (overly-generous according to my dad) amount. I want a nice, tasty meal served to me properly in a clean, well presented environment. I want to be able to sit in the lounge with a nice drink and watch the scenes go by. I want everything to be acceptably clean. And I want the train to be nice. All of these things are not relevant on the short-distance Regionals. On the other hand, I don't care if the train is somewhat late. To a degree, if I am a first class passenger, I enjoy the extra time onboard.

So implementing SDS does not help customer service. Failing to repair or replace a disintegrating, rickety, and rattling 10-6 that smells distinctly like fecal matter on the inside, and kinda looks like it too does not bode well for my satisfaction, either. Serving a pizza that tastes kinda like urine is no help. It wouldn't stop me from riding the train. But it lowers my satisfaction. I have two choices for going long distances: I can drive, or I can take Amtrak. I am happier about it when I am satisfied.

Certainly satisfaction is conducive to increased ridership, but it isn't tantamount to it. The fact that gas costs people 3 times what it did before Katrina is a good starting point for what drives people to ride the rails.

The problem is that to an extent, goals 2 and 3 are contradictory. To replace or rebuild the particular 10-6 I am referring to that I rode in aboard the Broadway Limited god knows how long ago costs money. So does offering good dining service.

But anyway, I ramble too much.


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## tp49 (Jan 26, 2008)

Here's something else to consider as well. Considering the rain we've been getting here in Northern California I would not be surprised if as some point in the next day or so that the line the Starlight travels from SAC to EMY floods somewhere around Suisun/Fairfield. They had this problem a couple of years ago. It's rained pretty much nonstop for the last week at least and it's supposed to get worse over the next couple of days.


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## AlanB (Jan 27, 2008)

D.P. Roberts said:


> Amtrak (belatedly) had an announcement on their site about the closure. Now it's gone - it's not even in the archive, or on the CS route page. What's up with that? What about people who were planning a trip next week, & MIGHT check the site & get that kind of info?


While you're correct the notice is no longer blazed across the home page, or in the news archives; if one tries to book a trip on the CS, in addition to the system reporting that the trains are sold out, the link to the notice does appear.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 27, 2008)

I know almost nobody would take it, but you'd think that they'd offer the option of travelling via Chicago in this instance. Yes, I know it takes four days, but still.


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## Kramerica (Jan 27, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I know almost nobody would take it, but you'd think that they'd offer the option of travelling via Chicago in this instance. Yes, I know it takes four days, but still.


I think anybody who would want to take your detour would be enough of a rail buff to be able to book it themselves.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 27, 2008)

You've got a point there.


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## Bill (Feb 12, 2008)

I had a complete change of plans,instead of flying from Portland to LA I was bound and determined to ride the rails...no flying!! to make up for the loss of the CS. So 1 hour,midnight,before the Cardinal left Cincinnati OH I finaly had hard tickets in my hand for a new last minute plan...Cardinal to Chicago ,Texas Eagle to San Antonio,somewhat rough ride but my sleeper car attendant( Cortney) more than made up for the rough ride. After a bit of time in SA picked up the Sunset to LA for a couple of days and then the SW Chief to Albuquerque for three days and then off to Chicago on the SW Chief aging with the final leg back home the Cardinal to Cincy.

All and all I did not really mind changing my plans that I made in August only to be changed at the last minute but I would not have found out about the cancellation of the Coast Starlite if it weren't for this site.Amtrak and my travel agent never contacted me...that is the most disturbing part..if I were average Joe I would have been stuck somewhere on the left coast...maybe next year the Cardinal, Empire,Starlite,Sunset,Texas Eagle and Cardinal.


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## Rafi (Feb 12, 2008)

Bill said:


> I had a complete change of plans,instead of flying from Portland to LA I was bound and determined to ride the rails...no flying!! to make up for the loss of the CS. So 1 hour,midnight,before the Cardinal left Cincinnati OH I finaly had hard tickets in my hand for a new last minute plan...Cardinal to Chicago ,Texas Eagle to San Antonio,somewhat rough ride but my sleeper car attendant( Cortney) more than made up for the rough ride. After a bit of time in SA picked up the Sunset to LA for a couple of days and then the SW Chief to Albuquerque for three days and then off to Chicago on the SW Chief aging with the final leg back home the Cardinal to Cincy.All and all I did not really mind changing my plans that I made in August only to be changed at the last minute but I would not have found out about the cancellation of the Coast Starlite if it weren't for this site.Amtrak and my travel agent never contacted me...that is the most disturbing part..if I were average Joe I would have been stuck somewhere on the left coast...maybe next year the Cardinal, Empire,Starlite,Sunset,Texas Eagle and Cardinal.


Next year consider Cardinal (eastbound), Crescent, Sunset, Starlight, Empire, and Cardinal instead. Taking the Crescent to New Orleans requires an overnight, but you'd have an entirely new route in the Crescent, a same-day connection from the Cardinal in Charlottesville (great town to day visit on that layover), and the best scenery with the Cardinal in West Virginia. You'd also benefit from an eastbound Empire Builder which sees much more of Glacier National Park than the westbound. You could do the Klamath Falls-Pasco bus to make a same day connection from the Coast Starlight, but I'd overnight in Seattle since it's a town worth visiting in its own right.

Rafi


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## AlanB (Feb 12, 2008)

Bill said:


> I had a complete change of plans,instead of flying from Portland to LA I was bound and determined to ride the rails...no flying!! to make up for the loss of the CS. So 1 hour,midnight,before the Cardinal left Cincinnati OH I finaly had hard tickets in my hand for a new last minute plan...Cardinal to Chicago ,Texas Eagle to San Antonio,somewhat rough ride but my sleeper car attendant( Cortney) more than made up for the rough ride. After a bit of time in SA picked up the Sunset to LA for a couple of days and then the SW Chief to Albuquerque for three days and then off to Chicago on the SW Chief aging with the final leg back home the Cardinal to Cincy.All and all I did not really mind changing my plans that I made in August only to be changed at the last minute but I would not have found out about the cancellation of the Coast Starlite if it weren't for this site.Amtrak and my travel agent never contacted me...that is the most disturbing part..if I were average Joe I would have been stuck somewhere on the left coast...maybe next year the Cardinal, Empire,Starlite,Sunset,Texas Eagle and Cardinal.


Well I'm glad that it all worked out for you Bill.  And I'm happy that we came though for you, even as I'm disapointed that you didn't hear from Amtrak. I'd expect less from your travel agent, but Amtrak was supposed to be calling everyone. I have to wonder how you slipped through the cracks, unless maybe your travel agent didn't provide your phone number. Or maybe Amtrak assumed that the agent would call you.

Either way, still unaceptable.


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## Bill (Feb 18, 2008)

Allan b,I could contact them now and all I would get is we are sorry sir,water under the bridge now,I have more important things to dwell on like my next ride Rafi,ya got me looking at the map and I could rack up a few new rail miles if I took the Cardinal toCharolttesville VA,then the Crescent to New Orleans with the City of New Orleans to Chicago and Cardinal....a possibility,I have till next winter to figure out what I wanna do.


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