# Southwest Airlines operations meltdown (Dec 2022)



## AmtrakBlue (Dec 24, 2022)

Southwest Declares Emergency In Denver, No One To Work The Ramp - View from the Wing


I've had several readers ask why Southwest Airlines is cancelling so many more flights than other carriers this holiday, and why their operation in Denver is worse than United's - so it's not just weather. I initially assumed that the way Southwest routes its planes - throughout its system...




viewfromthewing.com


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## west point (Dec 24, 2022)

Is this SW policy a direct result of seeing how the class 1 RRs are getting by with the RRs attendance policies ?


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 24, 2022)

One of my friends was flying east out of Midway (Southwest obviously) and got out, but two hours late.


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## Ryan (Dec 24, 2022)

Here's my tale of woe (really my son's)... For those that don't know I have a 19 year old - he was in CO to spend some time snowboarding w/his significant other that lives in Boulder. Original plan was to fly home this past Wednesday on a direct DEN-BWI flight that would have had him home around midnight.

Around a week before the flight, he got a message from WN that basically said "Weather's going to be crappy, free flight changes" and he ends up on a Thursday afternoon flight. Was odd to me that they would do that so far in advance, as the precise timing of the storm was unknowable at that point. Through the lens of this article, one can see they were already reducing flights to ease the workload.

Tuesday or so, when the timing of the storm was a little more clear, we talked and he moved his flight to an earlier flight on Thursday morning - the thinking being that if things went pear-shaped, there were more options later in the day, and getting him back earlier was good with the arctic front bearing down on the area. He arrives at the airport Thursday morning to the expected pandemonium. Long line to drop bags, long line at security, finally makes it to his gate. Flighaware (an amazing tool) was initially showing that his plan was doing an out and back to SEA before getting him and heading east. That morning it updated to show that his newly-assigned aircraft was already in DEN, having arrived from Austin the previous evening. Sweet. Or not. Getting the play by play while he was at the airport, they shuffled gates, and they ended up at a gate with a sign that said the plane was going to LGA, but announcements that yes, this is your plane, we're waiting for a part, so sit tight. Oh, by the way, use the potty because the water on the plane is frozen solid, so no water and no restrooms for you! 

After a while of sitting, and a flight that's something like 6 hours delayed at this point, both Flightaware and the Southwest app showed that his plane had left the gate and was taxiing. I jokingly texted him a screenshot and said "Hey, you left!" to which he replied that he could assure me that the plane (with the tail number FlightAware said was his) was still very much sitting there and very much covered in snow. (that's the literary device known as foreshadowing)

40 minutes later, this mystery flight appears to be in the air. I'm at a music rehearsal for church and playing bass, when he calls. I figure I'll call him back as soon as we're done with the song. He immediately calls again, and I know that something bad was in store. Sure enough, they left about a dozen people behind sitting at the wrong gate. Commence about 2 more hours of standing in lines, trying to go standby, figuring out what the hell happened, airport employees claiming announcements were made with many people disagreeing vehemently. We even looked at trying to buy him a ticket on a United flight that was getting out of there, but that was even more of a poop show. Finally, declaring defeat, he called the girlfriend who made the hour drive to pick him up to try again on Friday, where he was confirmed on a flight, but he neglected to look at the details (more of that foreshadowing thing)..

To be continued...


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## flitcraft (Dec 24, 2022)

Lots of people got stranded at Seatac Airport in Seattle during the storm on Wednesday. All three runways were shut down, which had never happened before, so all flights got cancelled over a seven hour stretch. Worse yet, public transit got completely shut down, so those who got to the airport by public transit were then stranded there, with no way to get back to Seattle and no way to get out to where they were going. The local TV news reporter on the story ended her item with a PS, which was that she, too, was stranded there with no way out!


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## TinCan782 (Dec 24, 2022)

I know someone who was struggling with DEN yesterday. Don't know the outcome.


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## railiner (Dec 24, 2022)

This brings to mind my experience, in the Christmas Blizzard of 1982, when I worked for Amtrak at Denver Union Station. Amtrak management alerted by the forecast, had the foresight to book downtown hotel rooms for station employees. Days before it hit, we were advised that we might be held on emergency duty, and to make arrangements (bring a suitcase to work the next day), prepared to spend a few days at the hotel, as the roads were mostly impassable.

The blizzard hit, and we were prepared. We all worked double shifts for the next few days, and when off duty, trudged over to the hotel, where we also ate.
I worked a total of 104 hours that week, and it was tough duty...shoveling snow, chipping ice, working the trains in the sub-zero temperatures...watering the train with only one working hose was an ordeal, as the other's were frozen. The baggage trucks, with their solid rubber tires, were a real challenge to manoeuvre around the platforms encrusted with snow and ice. The holiday swelled loadings made it even tougher. And due to the holiday, it was tough to find help, as the freight railway employees were mostly off. The trains were delayed, sometimes 12 or more hours, and at times, No. 5 and No. 6 were in the station at the same time. But IIRC, no trains were canceled. Everybody eventually got to their destination.
It was not an experience I would want to repeat...


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 24, 2022)

Another friend's sister was having issues coming to Chicago from Kansas City today due to lack of flight crew (I think it was SW) today as well - arrived about two hours late I think.


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## travelplus (Dec 25, 2022)

SW is worse than Amtrak. No interline airlines to ticket on. No Alliance partnerships etc.


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## Ryan (Dec 26, 2022)

Part II... When we last saw our intrepid hero, he was headed back to his girlfriends place in Boulder (at least he had somewhere to go, and she was able to make the hour-long drive to retrieve him). Despite being told by the gate agent that his bags were held there because he didn't make the plane, they were actually at 39,000' winging their way home. Fortunately an AirTag in one of the suitcases tipped us to that and I was able to get to BWI about 2 hours after the flight he wasn't on arrived, walk into the baggage area, pick up his bags (1 suitcase and one snowboard bag) and walk out without anyone attempting to stop me (glad I did that and not someone else!).

Thursday morning dawned, and the kids headed back to Denver for Round 2. This is when Alexander finally looked at the details of the flight he had been rebooked on and realized he was going on a WN-special: DEN-BNA*-CLT-BWI, all on the same plane. Tapping into the boarding pass on the app, he also discovered he was standby on a direct flight that left about 30 mins earlier (and arrived in BWI 4 hours earlier since it didn't take the scenic route). There were 6 names on the list in front of his, and they all had green checkmarks, so we were feeling good about his chances. He proceeded to that gate, verified that he was there, that he was next on the standby list (by showing the agent his phone, more foreshadowing), and that they would be boarding shortly. They begin the boarding process, and in reasonable time everyone present (save for the crowd of standby passengers) is on the plane. Apparently then there was some drama concerning some late-arriving connecting passengers and now long they needed to wait before filling the 4 seats on the plane with standby passengers. Finally they started calling names, and they were nothing like what the app was showing. At this point, his ticketed flight is starting to board, so he hustles down to that gate to begin the trek east (finally!). Upon further examination of the screen shot he excitedly sent off the standby list, I noted that it was the standby list for the correct flight, but the previous day. WN had put him on it, but didn't alert him, so he very nearly missed a second flight the previous day without knowing it.

Finally inflight, and expecting a stop in Nashville (*BNA) where he can relocate to a more better seat, the flight crew instead informs them that everyone was getting off. The plane that was to continue their journey was supposed to be at the next gate over (we confirmed on FlightAware that seemed to be the case), but that everyone should check that when they got inside (am I getting too heavy-handed with this foreshadowing thing?). Upon arriving in the terminal, there is no sign of the connecting flight - as it turns out because the aircraft is in (you guessed it!) Denver, and it's late and getting later.

At this point, our seasoned traveller sees the writing on the wall and isn't interested in spending the night in Nashville. He starts exploring other options and notes a direct flight from there to DCA. Calls us to make sure we're good to pick him up down there (told him I'd drive anywhere in the mid-Atlantic at this point) and he gets in line and rebooks himself. To his surprise, he pulls boarding #A44 just 3 hours from departure. Come departure time the plane is full from other people rebooking into it, but he's finally on a plane heading somewhere that we can pick him up. Was a good call, as the aircraft from Denver ended up hours-late and the subsequent legs were cancelled. I picked him up at DCA about half-past midnight on Christmas Eve and we had him safely at home about an hour later. 48 hours after he was supposed to be there, and without bags since they made the trip separately.

T'was an ordeal, but one that ended up with him home for Christmas. He does say that next year when he flies out there, it'll be after Christmas.


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## jis (Dec 26, 2022)

More on the Southwest meltdown ...









With Southwest Airlines In Disarray, Its Phone Systems Melt Down - View from the Wing


Like yesterday, Southwest Airlines again led the world in most flight cancellations. They aren't just short pilots and ramp agents. With half of the airline's flights delayed - again - customers all over the country have needed help getting rebooked. And the airline's phone system chose today to...




viewfromthewing.com


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 26, 2022)

jis said:


> More on the Southwest meltdown ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You gotta feel for the Customer Facing Folks @ SWA! ( and all the other Airlines and Amtrak also with the Weather Mess and all the Cancellations and Delays occurring all over!)


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## BCL (Dec 26, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> You gotta feel for the Customer Facing Folks @ SWA! ( and all the other Airlines and Amtrak also with the Weather Mess and all the Cancellations and Delays occurring all over!)



I wouldn’t yell at them. I totally get all the abuse heaped at grunts who aren’t responsible for the problems and are only trying to help with the resources they have.

I was supposed to be on WN 948 last night (Christmas Sunday) OAK-LAX. My biggest worry was that it might be delayed and I couldn’t catch the last BBB route 3 bus to Santa Monica where I’m staying. Was worried about Uber surge pricing but was getting around $26 even on Christmas.

The plane was continuing from Honolulu and I checked the status often and saw it would be on time. All the previous Christmas Day WN OAK-LAX nonstops were on schedule. Looking good. I’m there early. The WN baggage check-in lines were horrendous as passengers are dealing with cancelled flights, but I’ve got carry-on only. There’s almost no TSA line and the gate is a short walk. The plane is at the gate plenty early.

Then we hear the first bad news. They need a fresh crew even though this will be the last flight of the day for this plane. The captain is there but we need a first officer and a full complement of flight attendants who are deadheading from all over. I think I heard Austin, Denver, and Phoenix, plus one more I don’t recall. Eventually the first officer and two flight attendants arrive. But we’re still waiting, and about two hours (about 8:45 PM) after scheduled departure it gets cancelled. The next nonstop is also cancelled. So I exit and get in line at checkin where only a few employees are available and the pace of the line looks like at least a three hour wait to rebook and/or track down luggage. I gave up after 20 minutes since it was likely futile. I found a few passengers who went through it and said that they were offered rebookings from 2-4 days later depending on the destination. I also called to get a ride. I thought maybe the overnight Amtrak bus/train to Southern California but all Christmas Day trips were sold out.

So I got back home and tried to figure out what my options are since I had lodging that was too late to cancel and I had event tickets (couple of NHL games). I called in to my first place and they’ll at least not cancel and charge me as a no show. I looked up what my options were. FlixBus was pretty much sold out except for some pricey buses that would get me to LA at 3 AM on Tuesday. Greyhound had few options. But Amtrak had one last EMY-SLO-LAX ticket available ($63) and I took it even though it arrives at about 10 PM. On the thruway bus now and it was delayed a bit due to bad traffic on US-101. Traffic is still moderate even past Salinas. Driver said when we left San Francisco that we might skip the meal stop in King City because of projected traffic.

Not sure what I’m going to do with the cancelled flight. I booked it with less than 2000 Rapid Rewards points and $5.60 in taxes/fees. I can’t handle this online as there is no option to just cancel and get a refund. Says I have to use live customer service to rebook or cancel. I’m not going to waste time at an airport while I’m down in SoCal and I’m wondering how long phone wait times are.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 26, 2022)

BCL said:


> I wouldn’t yell at them. I totally get all the abuse heaped at grunts who aren’t responsible for the problems and are only trying to help with the resources they have.
> 
> I was supposed to be on WN 948 last night (Christmas Sunday) OAK-LAX. My biggest worry was that it might be delayed and I couldn’t catch the last BBB route 3 bus to Santa Monica where I’m staying. Was worried about Uber surge pricing but was getting around $26 even on Christmas.
> 
> ...


Glad you were able to get out of Dodge, Thousands are stranded all over North America!


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## BCL (Dec 26, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> Glad you were able to get out of Dodge, Thousands are stranded all over North America!



I had options, although last minute Amtrak around Christmas is risky. Bay Area to Southern California is a lot more reasonable for alternative short notice ground transportation compared to someone going to grandma’s house in Colorado or Texas. I’m losing a day, but I won’t be spending a planned $60 or so. Not sure what’s up with the room, but I expect that I will need to pay.

My big worry is the bus meeting up with the train in SLO. We ended up skipping the meal stop in King City. There was heavy traffic south of San Jose and Salinas. Plus road construction around King City. We’re zooming through now. Apple Maps estimates a driving arrival time of 3:43 and the train is scheduled to leave at 4:12. Not sure how that translates to how fast our bus goes, but we’re going as fast as prevailing traffic.


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## Willbridge (Dec 27, 2022)

BCL said:


> I had options, although last minute Amtrak around Christmas is risky. Bay Area to Southern California is a lot more reasonable for alternative short notice ground transportation compared to someone going to grandma’s house in Colorado or Texas. I’m losing a day, but I won’t be spending a planned $60 or so. Not sure what’s up with the room, but I expect that I will need to pay.
> 
> My big worry is the bus meeting up with the train in SLO. We ended up skipping the meal stop in King City. There was heavy traffic south of San Jose and Salinas. Plus road construction around King City. We’re zooming through now. Apple Maps estimates a driving arrival time of 3:43 and the train is scheduled to leave at 4:12. Not sure how that translates to how fast our bus goes, but we’re going as fast as prevailing traffic.


I've made several trips on that Thruway route and recommend fastening the seat belt.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 27, 2022)

I just read that southworst just cancelled all SoCal flights until 12/31 or something (I think this was yesterday so might not still be accurate).


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## jis (Dec 27, 2022)

Southwest's electronic and communications infrastructure meltdown was apparently pretty spectacular, or that is the impression one gets reading through threads at airliners.net etc.. They apparently managed to lose their customer facing IT systems, their customer facing telephone system and their crew and flight dispatch system all in one fell swoop. This led to flight crew not being able to get their next assignment and flight dispatchers unable to get plane loading information. So it was back to paper and pencil and personal cell phones bypassing central dispatch. It must have been horrible for the crew. The Unions are up in arms about it apparently.

Apparently all due to overload is the current claim, which suggest that they were all rather fragile. We will of course know more as time passes and adequate post-mortem is done.


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## jebr (Dec 27, 2022)

I wonder if the US will finally get an air passenger "bill of rights" - and if any legislator will care to also make sure rail and bus passengers are also included on it, or conveniently forget about those passengers because legislators (for the most part) don't take those modes of transportation (particularly bus.)


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 27, 2022)

OMG that sound horridble, JIS. I see that something similar happened last year. 

I'm hearing horror stories right now - colleagues sibling and family were visiting him in SoCal and had to rent a car to get back (only to Oakland, so not that bad of a trip). However, my friend who got out on Friday is stuck since the return flight just got cancelled.


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## alpha3 (Dec 27, 2022)

I have been thru a lot of these weather horror stories in my time - hurricanes in south Florida, volcanic eruptions in central America, winter storm messes in the NE. You proactively cancel, have standby crews at critical locations, and hope for the best. There are always unforseen mini-disasters but it generally works all right. You have extra sections ready to go when the dust settles, or operate some jumbos on narrow-body routes to clear the backlogs.

I just DON'T understand what has happened here to Southwest.........as of this moment they have over 2,000 canceled flights today; contrast that with Delta at 34, United at 67, and American at 22, several of AA's being Buffalo which has yet to dig itself out. 

I like Southwest a lot, but something is very wrong there.


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## Rover (Dec 27, 2022)

jis said:


> More on the Southwest meltdown ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



SW Press Conference given in Houston today with Station Director Jay McVay


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## alpha3 (Dec 27, 2022)

Rover said:


> SW Press Conference given in Houston today with Station Director Jay McVay



What nonsense.


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## Rover (Dec 27, 2022)

FlightRadar24's AvTalk Live: Southwest Airlines’ Meltdown

_A live AvTalk as we discuss Southwest Airlines’ operational meltdown over the Christmas holiday and how the airline is planning to reset._


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 27, 2022)

This one will be studied in Colleges for years, one of the Bigger Corporate Cluster Flubs for the Ages!


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## joelkfla (Dec 27, 2022)

An insider said on CNN that part of SWA's problem is that they don't operate out of hubs, but fly a point-to-point network. For example, if I look at flights from MCO to LAX on a random date in January, there are 12 flights offered, connecting at 8 different cities.

That makes it much more difficult to manage planes and crew, and their obsolete systems are not up to the task.


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## Ryan (Dec 27, 2022)

jis said:


> We will of course know more as time passes and adequate post-mortem is done.


I very much hope that this is the case. Living near BWI, they’re almost the only game in town.


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## Rover (Dec 27, 2022)

I have a simple solution for Southwest to be able to know where their crews are... Apple Air Tags for all crew members ! ! !


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 27, 2022)

So my friend who is in Providence at the moment is flying home out of Boston via American. Staying with a sympathetic brother on vacation who can schlep you to the airport is a bonus.


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## jis (Dec 28, 2022)

Rover said:


> I have a simple solution for Southwest to be able to know where their crews are... Apple Air Tags for all crew members ! ! !


I would be exceedingly surprised if the Unions would agree to something like that. Besides, when they cannot manage simple checkin-checkout, what would cause them to be able to manage something more complex, even if we ignore all of the off duty privacy issues? 

Incidentally this has been discussed at some length in the airliners.net thread on the southwest meltdown.


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## TinCan782 (Dec 28, 2022)

Meanwhile at Burbank Airport (BUR)...
"CA couple forced to take 8-hour train ride home amid Southwest fiasco: 'We just want to get home'"








CA couple forced to take 8-hour train ride home amid Southwest fiasco: 'We just want to get home'


A California couple had to take an 8-hour train ride back home as the Southwest flight debacle continues to affect people's holiday travel plans.




abc7.com


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## joelkfla (Dec 28, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> Meanwhile at Burbank Airport (BUR)...
> "CA couple forced to take 8-hour train ride home amid Southwest fiasco: 'We just want to get home'"
> 
> 
> ...


"forced to take an Amtrak train" ... like that's a bad thing?


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## jis (Dec 28, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> "forced to take an Amtrak train" ... like that's a bad thing?


In many people's mind that is like being downgraded to a Horse and Buggy from a Lexus


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 28, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> "forced to take an Amtrak train" ... like that's a bad thing?


They probably had to ride in, egads!, coach.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 28, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> Meanwhile at Burbank Airport (BUR)...
> "CA couple forced to take 8-hour train ride home amid Southwest fiasco: 'We just want to get home'"
> 
> 
> ...


The Horror!8 Hours on a Train!


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## Anderson (Dec 28, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> They probably had to ride in, egads!, coach.


I mean, it's not like Amtrak has space in the sleepers given all of the equipment sitting at Beech Grove.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 28, 2022)

I was annoyed with some upcoming flights being cancelled, moved 10+ hours in the wrong direction, getting re-cancelled a second time, and waiting an hour or more to talk to anyone...but that looks like a cakewalk compared to the Southwest fiasco.



Bob Dylan said:


> The Horror!8 Hours on a Train!


In the past I would have laughed but with the diner closed off and lounge car gone you won't see me spending 8 hours in coach on the TE.



Anderson said:


> I mean, it's not like Amtrak has space in the sleepers given all of the equipment sitting at Beech Grove.


Exactly. Some people say travelers must not mind the high fares, generic pantry food, and vanishing amenities because the trains are full, but I wonder if such people realize these are shorter trains with fewer cars and sleepers full of staff. I considered taking the train for an upcoming trip but Amtrak wants more for a Roomette across three states than it costs to fly across the Pacific Ocean.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 28, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I was annoyed with some upcoming flights being cancelled, moved 10+ hours in the wrong direction, getting cancelled a second time, and waiting 1+ hours to talk to anyone on the phone...but that looks like a cakewalk compared to what is going on with Southwest.
> 
> 
> In the past I would have laughed but with the diner closed off and lounge car gone you won't see me spending 8 hours in coach on the TE.


I agree Chris, but in an Emergency it beats the heck out of spending time in a Crowded Airport!


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## Rover (Dec 29, 2022)




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## Bob Dylan (Dec 29, 2022)

We just thought Amtrak's Systems were OFUd! Southworst has to take the Prize for The Worst Technology!


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 29, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> We just thought Amtrak's Systems were OFUd! Southworst has to take the Prize for The Worst Technology!


It's been years since I flew Southwest but I used to do so regularly and they honestly they had some of the best technology back in the day. They were one of the first major airlines to implement e-tickets back in the 1990's. When I needed to change, cancel, or credit a flight I could do almost everything online without having to call anyone. Eventually other airlines caught up but even today many foreign airlines still require phone calls for common tasks. Unfortunately Southwest vastly outgrew the scalability of their own software and it worked well only when everything else was running smoothly.


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## Rover (Dec 29, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's been years since I flew Southwest but I used to do so regularly and they honestly they had some of the best technology back in the day. They were one of the first major airlines to implement e-tickets back in the 1990's. When I needed to change, cancel, or credit a flight I could do almost everything online without having to call anyone. Eventually other airlines caught up but even today many foreign airlines still require phone calls for common tasks. Unfortunately Southwest vastly outgrew the scalability of their own software and it worked well only when everything else was running smoothly.


SW is like..."We were first with a Hi-Fi VHS system, and we're darn proud of it !!"


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## Rover (Dec 29, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> We just thought Amtrak's Systems were OFUd! Southworst has to take the Prize for The Worst Technology!


Who Knew ??



jis said:


> In many people's mind that is like being downgraded to a Horse and Buggy from a Lexus


Airlines have better fights though...


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## BCL (Dec 29, 2022)

Rover said:


> Airlines have better fights though...



But they usually don’t stop in the middle of nowhere and call for local LE to remove the offenders. I guess the equivalent would be shoving someone out the emergency exit.


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## BCL (Dec 29, 2022)

I wonder if they can take this back.


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## jis (Dec 29, 2022)

BCL said:


> But they usually don’t stop in the middle of nowhere and call for local LE to remove the offenders. I guess the equivalent would be shoving someone out the emergency exit.


If the fights get truly disruptive then they do divert to kick the offenders off.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 29, 2022)

BCL said:


> But they usually don’t stop in the middle of nowhere and call for local LE to remove the offenders. I guess the equivalent would be shoving someone out the emergency exit.


Don't they make unscheduled landings to turn troublemakers over to local law enforcement?


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## Willbridge (Dec 30, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Don't they make unscheduled landings to turn troublemakers over to local law enforcement?


Yes. Denver PD's airport detail is ready.


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## BCL (Dec 30, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Don't they make unscheduled landings to turn troublemakers over to local law enforcement?



It happens from time to time, but usually I hear about turning back to the departure airport or just continuing to the destination unless they simply can’t handle it with zip ties. Southwest reported did that last week. Looked it up and that was HNL-OAK, so there are no places to land in between.









Passenger Disturbance Forces Oakland-Bound Southwest Flight to Return to Honolulu


An Oakland-bound Southwest Airlines flight had to return to Honolulu mid-flight due to a “passenger disturbance” in the air.




www.nbcbayarea.com


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 2, 2023)

Well, today Jan 02,2023 after resuming "Normal Operations", Southworst is once again leading the League in Cancellations and Delays!

SWAs spokesperson attributes this to " The Weather in Denver".


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## Anderson (Jan 3, 2023)

Bob Dylan said:


> Well, today Jan 02,2023 after resuming "Normal Operations", Southworst is once again leading the League in Cancellations and Delays!
> 
> SWAs spokesperson attributes this to " The Weather in Denver".


I wish some reporter had the quick thinking to ask him if the problem was the wrong kind of snow.


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## jis (Jan 3, 2023)

Anderson said:


> I wish some reporter had the quick thinking to ask him if the problem was the wrong kind of snow.


For them these days it is more likely the "wrong kind of phone"


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## BCL (Jan 3, 2023)

jis said:


> I would be exceedingly surprised if the Unions would agree to something like that. Besides, when they cannot manage simple checkin-checkout, what would cause them to be able to manage something more complex, even if we ignore all of the off duty privacy issues?
> 
> Incidentally this has been discussed at some length in the airliners.net thread on the southwest meltdown.



There are already complaints about being constantly monitored on the job. Off the job would be really problematic. Just this morning there was a call-in discussion on a local radio program about truck drivers feeling uncomfortable about being tracked all the time.









'Data Driven' Looks at Surveillance in Trucking Industry - KQED


On a stretch of lonely highway, the only people you might see are the long haul truckers whose 18-wheel semis form the backbone of the American economy. In trucking, the hours are long, but it’s a profession that has long offered those with a hankering for the open road a chance at independence...




www.kqed.org





But there's real time information now with buses. I can look at Apple Maps and see where a bus is and plan to leave accordingly with real time estimates of when I need to start walking. I've been taking Anaheim Regional Transportation recently, and they've got monitoring on their buses where I can see where they are, whether they're on scheduled routes, or on their on-demand rides where I see the current location of the driver/bus. I does get a bit frustrating when the ETA starts slipping though and I could see the bus was assigned to pick up more passengers. But that kind of goes with the system trying to maximize the use.


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## Trogdor (Jan 3, 2023)

BCL said:


> There are already complaints about being constantly monitored on the job. Off the job would be really problematic. Just this morning there was a call-in discussion on a local radio program about truck drivers feeling uncomfortable about being tracked all the time.



The whole discussion of AirTags or tracking devices is a bit of a red herring, and ignores the fundamental issue (which jis alluded to). The reason they didn't know where their crews were was because the technological interface was overwhelmed and suffered a meltdown. If they can't manage integration between an airline operations tracking system and an airline crew scheduling system, there's no way they could manage integration of technology that was never really intended for that purpose and jury-rig it to interface with a crew scheduling system. So the end result would still be an overwhelmed mass of crew schedulers trying to put stuff together by hand and then try to get in contact with the crews to reschedule them.

Further, the bigger deal, besides knowing where the crews were, was whether or not they were legal to fly. A random GPS tracker isn't going to know that, and is probably going to create more noise in the system for the crew schedulers to have to filter out, distracting everyone from actual productive work.

You don't need to GPS-track your crews if you have a system that can properly associate them with the flights they are flying, the status of those flights, and a relatively simple check-in system at the airport when they report for duty.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 3, 2023)

Airtag firmware is surprisingly bad at tracking property, let alone employees. You can only add a few tags per account and even if Southwest could deploy Airtags for every employee they would be lucky to get a single update before the tags started telling everyone they were being stalked. They send out the same warning when a thief absconds with your property making them useless for many forms of monitoring. Most companies handle employee monitoring by reading badges as they enter/exit company property, through web/app self-reporting, and/or periodic uploading of company vehicle locations. A badge that last several times longer than an Airtag and is sold at a fraction of the per-unit cost is a much more practical and appealing solution for obvious reasons.


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## BCL (Jan 3, 2023)

Trogdor said:


> The whole discussion of AirTags or tracking devices is a bit of a red herring, and ignores the fundamental issue (which jis alluded to). The reason they didn't know where their crews were was because the technological interface was overwhelmed and suffered a meltdown. If they can't manage integration between an airline operations tracking system and an airline crew scheduling system, there's no way they could manage integration of technology that was never really intended for that purpose and jury-rig it to interface with a crew scheduling system. So the end result would still be an overwhelmed mass of crew schedulers trying to put stuff together by hand and then try to get in contact with the crews to reschedule them.
> 
> Further, the bigger deal, besides knowing where the crews were, was whether or not they were legal to fly. A random GPS tracker isn't going to know that, and is probably going to create more noise in the system for the crew schedulers to have to filter out, distracting everyone from actual productive work.
> 
> You don't need to GPS-track your crews if you have a system that can properly associate them with the flights they are flying, the status of those flights, and a relatively simple check-in system at the airport when they report for duty.



I certainly get that there are any number of things that need to be considered - especially the FAA rules on alcohol consumption before assuming one's duties. I even heard about an airport worker who got in trouble for a beer at lunch.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jan 3, 2023)

Some UPS trucks can be tracked as well (to the point that when a driver enters a building lobby to deliver a package the truck reads as inside on the maps).


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## BCL (Jan 4, 2023)

They're offering 25,000 Rapid Rewards points to passengers who were hit by cancellations. I just tried cashing in my offer and I'll have to see how long it takes.









Southwest Airlines apologizes and then gives its customers frequent-flyer points


Southwest Airlines says it will award the travelers who were caught in the surge of canceled flights during the holidays 25,000 frequent-flyer points, an award worth more than $300 in flights.




www.npr.org


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## BCL (Jan 4, 2023)

BCL said:


> They're offering 25,000 Rapid Rewards points to passengers who were hit by cancellations. I just tried cashing in my offer and I'll have to see how long it takes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just received a message that my "deposit" request has been received and that it can take up to 24 hours for the points to show up in my account.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 4, 2023)

BCL said:


> They're offering 25,000 Rapid Rewards points to passengers who were hit by cancellations. I just tried cashing in my offer and I'll have to see how long it takes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lots of luck booking a flight on the busy routes that have backlogs due to all the Cancellations and the Bad Weather!

Keep us posted!


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## BCL (Jan 4, 2023)

Bob Dylan said:


> Lots of luck booking a flight on the busy routes that have backlogs due to all the Cancellations and the Bad Weather!
> 
> Keep us posted!



I think I already mentioned that my flight was scheduled for Christmas Day and I ended up taking Amtrak the next day on short notice. I'm just hoping to get my points back - all 1991 plus the $5.60 in fees. But they say that reasonable expenses include travel and meals incurred. I'm pretty sure the outbound Amtrak ticket counts since that replaced my Southwest flight.

I had already booked a return on Amtrak and got home on Monday.

But my 25,000 "apology" points posted rather quickly.


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