# sarah will we ever see detroit-windsor train service



## white rabbitt (Feb 22, 2015)

sarah there is a tunnel so why not trains to windsor


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## the_traveler (Feb 22, 2015)

I personally think the chance is very low. Any trains in Canada that have local service will be operated by VIA Rail. Thus there must be an agreement between Amtrak and VIA. Plus the border crossing possible delays must be considered. (How would you like it if you were taking a VIA train from Windsor to London and find out it is delayed 2 hours because it started in CHI and had border delays? :huh: )

The Cascades and Adirondack have no local service in Canada, and thus are operated by Amtrak throughout their runs. The Maple Leaf has local service in Canada, and thus is operated by VIA from the border to TWO. That is why you receive 2 tickets - one for the U.S. portion and one for the Canada portion. The crews change at the border, and even the cafe offerings change.

Amtrak has an exclusive contract with Pepsi, and do not offer Coke products. VIA has an exclusive contract with Coke, and do not offer Pepsi products. You can not buy a Pepsi on the ML if it is in Canada!


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## white rabbitt (Feb 22, 2015)

traveler canadian pacific uses that tunnel every day for freight


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## the_traveler (Feb 22, 2015)

Yes, but they normally do not carry passengers - unless there are stowaways.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 22, 2015)

Just don't try walking through the tunnels between Detroit and Windsor! The Joker and his gang have taken them over after Batman ran them out of Gotham! LOL


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## SarahZ (Feb 22, 2015)

We used to have a train that traveled between Chicago and Toronto, but service stopped in 2004 due to a large decrease in ridership:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Limited

There was this one, too, but it ended long before the International:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagara_Rainbow


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 22, 2015)

There is no direct connection between the tunnel and the new VIA station for a train to continue onto London and Toronto. It could be done but would require non direct routing over the Essex Terminal Railway industrial trackage in Windsor.

A better option might be a straight run on the CPR from the tunnel to a connection near Chatham onto the CN route to London. The drawback would be the train could not use the VIA owned track between Windsor and Chatham that was recently rebuilt and signaled for high-speed operation. Also the train could not use the new VIA station.

And in a previous life.....

Through Canadian Pacific-New York Central trains between Chicago and Toronto used the tunnel and after the through service ended......CP continued to run RDC Dayliners from Toronto through the tunnel and into Michigan Central Station, Detroit to connect with New York Central trains to/from Chicago.

CN also offered service between Detroit and Toronto by carrying through cars including sleepers on railcar ferries across the Detroit River to Windsor where the cars were attached to CN trains to/from Toronto.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 22, 2015)

NS VIA Fan said:


> VIA owned track between Windsor and Chatham that was recently rebuilt and signaled for high-speed operation.


Can we please stop assigning the term "high speed" to virtually any improvement whatsoever? Last I checked this line was still operating at or below 100 MPH. If those speeds didn't qualify as high speed half a century ago why on Earth should they qualify now?


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## PerRock (Feb 22, 2015)

The connection to the Detroit station doesn't work anymore as either. The Woodward Ave station is further "east" (actually north) from the junction the train would take to get to the Tunnel.

Amtrak & VIA operated for a while The International, that ran thru the Sarnia & Port Huron. Those 2 stations are set up much better for the international crossing.

peter


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## white rabbitt (Feb 22, 2015)

SarahZ said:


> We used to have a train that traveled between Chicago and Toronto, but service stopped in 2004 due to a large decrease in ridership:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Limited
> 
> ...


thank u sarah for that info u rule!!!!


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## railiner (Feb 23, 2015)

If they could ever resolve the border crossing delay issues, it would be nice to again offer thru service between Chicago, Detroit, and Buffalo (and East) as the New York Central Lines did prior to Amtrak. They must have had their own Windsor station east of the tunnel at that time...

I think it was mentioned in previous threads on this subject that the original New York Central System owned Canada Southern Railway has been partially abandoned, so thru trains would have to use a new route as NS VIA Fan described...


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 23, 2015)

Aha! Look what I found: http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/ptt/timetables.htm.


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 23, 2015)

NS VIA Fan said:


> CN also offered service between Detroit and Toronto by carrying through cars including sleepers on railcar ferries across the Detroit River to Windsor where the cars were attached to CN trains to/from Toronto.


[SIZE=10.5pt]After the ferries stopped shuttling passenger cars across the river…. CN had buses that looped through downtown Detroit connecting with the trains in Windsor. The buses lasted ‘till Amtrak. And after that the CN timetable had a note that limousine service between Windsor and Detroit was available.[/SIZE]

Just having a similar dedicated shuttle-bus between Amtrak Detroit and VIA Windsor…. coordinated with train schedules would certainly improve things for now.

[SIZE=10.5pt]




[/SIZE]


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## the_traveler (Feb 23, 2015)

Why do they specify "Michagan Time"? :huh: Detroit and Windsor and also Port Huron and Sarnia are all on Eastern Time!


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## Eric S (Feb 23, 2015)

Perhaps different dates for Daylight Saving Time switch? That appears to be what the note in red is saying (my French is basically nonexistent, so I'm not sure).


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## Ryan (Feb 23, 2015)

The French is something to the effect of "From 1 February to 24 April inclusive and after October 30, leaving 1 hour earlier than indicated"


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 23, 2015)

The timetable page was from 1970 and it looks like Michigan didn't observe Daylight Savings Time that year so there was a one hour difference between Detroit and Windsor. Here is the other page of the schedule I posted above showing westbound trains....and looking at the connecting buses, one departed CN Windsor at 12:25 and arrived GT Brush St Detroit at 12:05 (before it left Windsor!  )


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## Eric S (Feb 23, 2015)

It seems to me that there are two challenges with passenger service across the US/Canada border in the Detroit/Windsor region. First, station placement and existing trackage makes it difficult if not impossible for a cross-border train to serve Detroit Amtrak station and/or Windsor VIA Rail station. Second, the border security requirements adds a great deal of uncertainty to schedules and is hardly an inducement to travel. (I think we hardly want to set up another Maple Leaf Niagara Falls arrangement; however, a Cascades Vancouver or future Adirondack Montreal setup might work.)

If we're stuck with the current border arrangement, then having VIA Rail trains terminate in Detroit rather than Windsor could be an option, assuming a segregated facility could be built at the Detroit station, like the current situation at Vancouver and the proposed arrangement at Montreal. However, this still sets up a difficult situation in either trying to access the Windsor station or in skipping it (as mentioned earlier).


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## white rabbitt (Feb 23, 2015)

Eric S said:


> It seems to me that there are two challenges with passenger service across the US/Canada border in the Detroit/Windsor region. First, station placement and existing trackage makes it difficult if not impossible for a cross-border train to serve Detroit Amtrak station and/or Windsor VIA Rail station. Second, the border security requirements adds a great deal of uncertainty to schedules and is hardly an inducement to travel. (I think we hardly want to set up another Maple Leaf Niagara Falls arrangement; however, a Cascades Vancouver or future Adirondack Montreal setup might work.)
> 
> If we're stuck with the current border arrangement, then having VIA Rail trains terminate in Detroit rather than Windsor could be an option, assuming a segregated facility could be built at the Detroit station, like the current situation at Vancouver and the proposed arrangement at Montreal. However, this still sets up a difficult situation in either trying to access the Windsor station or in skipping it (as mentioned earlier).


i remember the via and the cp or cn had seperate train stations

in windsor and both were not near each other


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 23, 2015)

white rabbitt said:


> i remember the via and the cp or cn had seperate train stations
> 
> in windsor and both were not near each other


The original CN Station was on the waterfront near where the railcar ferries docked. CN moved out to the Walkerville area in the early 1960s and this was also the VIA station until they replaced it a year or so ago at the same location.

CP and New York Central had a station not far from the tunnel entrance.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 23, 2015)

IINM the old CP Station by the Hiram Walker distillery ( close to the Casino and River)was the VIA Station until the new one was built!

I used to ride VIA between Oakville and Windsor when my B-I-L lived in Windsor.


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## Anderson (Feb 24, 2015)

(1) Does anyone have more info on that Railiner/Autorailer service? Was that an Auto Train-type service of some kind that ran TWO-CHI?

(2) Doing a map check, you have a few options you could pursue. The short version, however, is that you can't efficiently serve both the present Detroit station (and by connection the extension of the Wolverine north of town) and a service to Windsor. The present VIA station is also awkwardly placed and lots of backwards moves would be needed. The best option I see is to split service off at Dearborn. Passengers from Chicago to Canada would transfer trains here, and you could probably arrange to do the check either _en route_ somehow or simply do a Vancouver-style check at Dearborn. The next best option would be a station in the Grand Blvd. area for this; you'd still probably be stuck with a backup move, but this would be a short move. You could look to a cab car/NPCU solution.

It would probably be preferable to move the VIA station, but there might be some insurmountable issues there. You could also use the Detroit station, but a change of train would be needed...though given the border issues I think a change of train is probably happening almost no matter what.


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## white rabbitt (Feb 24, 2015)

where do those C P train's go when they leave the tunnel in windsor?


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 24, 2015)

Anderson said:


> (1) Does anyone have more info on that Railiner/Autorailer service? Was that an Auto Train-type service of some kind that ran TWO-CHI?


A “Railiner-Autorail” was CN’s name for a train using Budd RDC self-propelled railcars. VIA still uses them today on the Sudbury-White River train. 

In CN’s bi-lingual timetable “Autorail” translated roughly to “Railcar” en Francais to English. It wasn’t some type of an AutoTrain.


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 24, 2015)

white rabbitt said:


> where do those C P train's go when they leave the tunnel in windsor?


Once out of the Tunnel on the Windsor end….CP trains follow their mainline to Chatham, London, Galt and into Toronto.

(on the Detroit end of the Tunnel…..CP trains make their way onto Norfolk Southern with running-rights on NS through Butler and Elkhart, Indiana to Chicago) 

You can follow the CP mainline (in Red) on this map of southern Ontario (lower left corner). Looking at the map you can see where VIA (blue) crosses CP just west of Chatham. If passenger trains was ever to use the tunnel....this might be a possible point where they could switch over and follow VIA's present route on CN to Toronto through London.

http://www.proximityissues.ca/asset/image/reference/maps/pdf/ON_rail_map.pdf


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 24, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> IINM the old CP Station by the Hiram Walker distillery ( close to the Casino and River)was the VIA Station until the new one was built!
> 
> I used to ride VIA between Oakville and Windsor when my B-I-L lived in Windsor.


No….the was the former CN Station built out in Walkerville in the early 1960’s…..and yes, right beside the Hiram Walker distillery.














VIA used this station until they opened their new Station here on an adjacent site in in 2012. I haven’t any pictures of the new building but there's several here in the VIA Press Release:

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/capital-investment/article/welcome-to-windsor


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## white rabbitt (Feb 24, 2015)

NS via fan the new station is beautiful

it makes the detroit and royal oak station look bad by comparison


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