# agr changes for 2008



## yarrow (Dec 14, 2007)

Important Program News:

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Amtrak Guest Rewards® is designed to reward Amtrak customers for their travel on Amtrak. Your loyalty as an Amtrak customer is important to us. To ensure the Amtrak Guest Rewards program can continue to provide Amtrak customers with an array of reward options we must implement the following changes to the program, effective January 1, 2008.

Effective January 1, 2008, the option to redeem Amtrak Guest Rewards points for airline miles or hotel points will only be available to:

1.) Members with current Amtrak Guest Rewards Select or Select Plus status, or

2.) Cardholders of the Amtrak Guest Rewards® MasterCard® issued by Chase Bank.

These groups of members will continue to have access to these redemption options:

Item #4001 – 5,000 points for 10,000 Hilton HHonors points

Item #4013 – 5,000 points for 15,000 Choice Privileges points

Item #5002 – 5,000 points for 5,000 Midwest miles

Item #5003 – 5,000 points for 5,000 Continental OnePass miles

As a reminder,eligible members are still subject to the 25,0001 and 50,0002 annual point transfer caps as outlined in the program Terms and Conditions.

Amtrak Guest Rewards continues to offer a diverse range of reward options for all our members, with more on the horizon for 2008! As always, Amtrakguestrewards.com is the place to see all the latest program updates. Thanks for your continued loyalty.

1 Members that are cardholders of the Amtrak Guest Rewards® MasterCard® issued by Chase Bank may redeem up to 25,000 points per calendar year.


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## The Metropolitan (Dec 14, 2007)

Interesting - looking at Flyer Talk, it seems as if a number of people use AGR as a "vehicle" for swapping points about to get the best redemption rates for airline or hotel stays. Apparently, this change has caused some bit of a stir on that forum, as it requires you to be a regular rider to benefit from the redemption values, and some of these AGR members may have had a great deal of points, but possibly never set foot on an Amtrak train.

While I appreciate the ability to redeem points in flexible ways, it seems that some people worked this into some sort of loophole, only to shoot themselves in the foot. Thankfully, I only see myself spending points on train travel, as rides on airplanes don't strike me as a reward!


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## AlanB (Dec 14, 2007)

The Metropolitan said:


> Interesting - looking at Flyer Talk, it seems as if a number of people use AGR as a "vehicle" for swapping points about to get the best redemption rates for airline or hotel stays. Apparently, this change has caused some bit of a stir on that forum, as it requires you to be a regular rider to benefit from the redemption values, and some of these AGR members may have had a great deal of points, but possibly never set foot on an Amtrak train.
> While I appreciate the ability to redeem points in flexible ways, it seems that some people worked this into some sort of loophole, only to shoot themselves in the foot. Thankfully, I only see myself spending points on train travel, as rides on airplanes don't strike me as a reward!


While you are correct that many people did use AGR just as a stop over for their points to transfer from one frequent flyer type program to another, that wasn't the reason for the changes announced by AGR. The main reason behind this was the desire by some people to abuse, misuse, and violate the rules in their efforts to garner points. Namely the offer by AGR and Choice where 1 AGR point would net 5 Choice points. This was an exceptional deal if one isn't into riding Amtrak.

However many people were not satisfied with the 25,000 transfer limit. So they setup multiple AGR accounts and transfered points into AGR to launder them into Choice, or they got other friends to trade points and transfer into their accounts. When AGR realized that there were major, major amounts of points headed out to Choice, they started an investigation into what was going on. That resulted in an immediate suspension of transfers to Choice, a reduced transfer rate of 1 for 3, and for anyone caught abusing the system the revocation of all transfers to Choice. It also appears that Choice has suspended the accounts of any abusers.

All transfers that had been scheduled were reviewed for abuse manually from that point on, before being sent over to Choice. And the new rules above were issued to prevent further abuse in the future.

So now sadly everyone pays the price for those who abused the system.


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## sechs (Dec 14, 2007)

AlanB said:


> So now sadly everyone pays the price for those who abused the system.


What really chaps my hide is that the vast majority of those people never set foot in an Amtrak train... and they're complaining that they got caught!


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## diesteldorf (Dec 15, 2007)

I was seriously considering transferring 50K (Select limit) to Choice to get some cheap Southwest flights until I realized Southwest doesn't serve my neck of the woods. I don't normally fly anyway but 6 roundtrip flights + companion travel was a good deal and I may have used a couple for relatives if that was allowed.

I'm just glad that AlanB told me this was shutdown so I could put the issue to rest.

Personally, I would be more upset if AGR raised the point values for their train travel rewards. That is

still the best deal by far compared to any other reward you can get my transferring out of AGR.

It would be really neat if AGR offered a parter reward with Canada's Via Rail.

The Grande Lux redemption is a nice gesture but really not worth it. 50K would net a $1000 gift certificate that really wouldn't go that far for Grande Lux, considering that for 60K I could go roundtrip East or West (since I'm in WI) to anywhere in a deluxe bedroom. That would certainly exceed $1000.

I would suspect that many in this forum feel the same way. I transfer points in only and use them all for Amtrak.


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## The Metropolitan (Dec 15, 2007)

sechs said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > So now sadly everyone pays the price for those who abused the system.
> ...


This and the fact that legitimate AGR members who need to contact AGR are probably having a hard time doing so thanks to the logjam of complaints of "rogue" AGR members playing "Musical Points" whose game ended where they didn't want to sit.

I there's any silver lining, its that these same people are now sitting on points in multiple AGR accounts that will be much harder for them to disseminate to a place they'd want them. That or they'll resign to losing some, or perish the thought- worse yet - may actually now have to set on foot an Amtrak train!

Thanks for explaining the "process" Alan. I'll admit I was a little mixed up over there at what people were doing - Though I have a Choice account, I had only intended it to use to get AGR points on hotel stays for Amtrak travel, so the whole mass transfer thing was confusing to me.


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## darien-l (Dec 15, 2007)

AlanB said:


> The main reason behind this was the desire by some people to abuse, misuse, and violate the rules in their efforts to garner points.


AlanB,

I'm curious exactly what rules were violated here. Other than people opening multiple AGR accounts, it seemed fairly legit to me. Transferring points from one program to another using some intermediary program has been around for years, and I never thought of it as abuse. There is a tool called Mileage Converter on Webflyer (http://www.webflyer.com/programs/mileage_converter/) that tells you exactly how to "launder" miles, as you put it, through all kinds of programs. I guess I always thought of it as "taking advantage of the offer," not "abusing the system." The main problem here, IMHO, was that this offer was far juicer than AGR realized: it basically allowed people to convert their Continental or Amtrak points into miles on almost any airline on a 1:1 basis. Not to mention the large increase in value when transferred to Southwest. I would argue that the fault here lies mainly with AGR for not thinking this offer through, rather than with the people who took advantage of it (short of opening multiple AGR accounts).


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## AlanB (Dec 15, 2007)

darien-l said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The main reason behind this was the desire by some people to abuse, misuse, and violate the rules in their efforts to garner points.
> ...


Darien,

I personally have no problem with people transfering points around, especially when there is something to gain. And in this case it was a major gain, between the 1 for 5 ratio going into Choice from AGR, and then another nice ratio going into Southwest. As you say transfers have been around for many years and it is an accepted practice and a perk that most programs offer.

And after an initial halt to postings, AGR is allowing transfers from those who followed the rules to go through and rightfully so. In fact people can still legitimately transfer points even now, although at a lower rate than before, without needing status for the rest of this year. However anyone caught in violation of the rules has either had their transfers reversed or they never got through.

As for the violations, there were many people who opened more than one AGR account to get around the 25,000 out going transfer limit. People who used accounts of friends, family, girlfriends, and so on to transfer extra points above and beyond the 25,000 limit to Choice. That is the abuse that I'm talking about. It was clearly stated in the rules that the names on the accounts had to match and that one cannot have more than one AGR account. By my count I'd say that there are at least two dozen people who have admitted to violating those rules, and there are probably a lot more who tried and just never said anything.

So now under the new rules, it will be much harder for people to transfer points. Now you either need to really ride Amtrak to transfer points and bump the limit, or at least you will need to apply for an AGR credit card.


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## darien-l (Dec 15, 2007)

AlanB said:


> It was clearly stated in the rules that the names on the accounts had to match


I've been told by Continental OnePass representative that I can transfer my miles to anyone's AGR account. I've since transfered CO miles to other people's AGR account without a problem. Are you sure this is against the rules?


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## AlanB (Dec 15, 2007)

darien-l said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > It was clearly stated in the rules that the names on the accounts had to match
> ...


That may be Continental's policy and they of course have the right to set any policy they want. However it was not AGR's policy at the time they announced the very nice transfer rate. While the original page for the 1 to 5 rate is no longer available, the page for the current 1 to 3 rate still is available.

I quote from it:



> Amtrak Guest Rewards members may redeem Amtrak Guest Rewards points in exchange for Choice Privileges points. Members requesting to exchange points must be a member of both Amtrak Guest Rewards and Choice Privileges to complete the exchange. *Both the Amtrak Guest Rewards account and the Choice Privileges account must be in the same name*.


 The bolding is mine, not AGR's.
You can still find the complete rules here.

Another member over at Flyertalk, Soitgoes, has confirmed that he not only read that policy at the time that he did a legitimate transfer, but he actually saved the page on his computer so he was able to confirm that it was in place before people got caught by AGR for violating the terms.


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## diesteldorf (Dec 16, 2007)

AlanB said:


> darien-l said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


It's really comparing apples to oranges since Continental controls one and Amtrak controls the other.

Continental initiates the transfer from OnePass to Amtrak and can set their policy as they see fit. If the names don't have to match, that is Continental's call and is not in violation of their rules.

Likewise, Amtrak has stated that the names from both the AGR account and Choice Rewards account

have to match. Since they are the ones initiating the transfer between AGR and Choice, it is a violation if the names don't match


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## Bigval109 (Jan 11, 2008)

diesteldorf said:


> I was seriously considering transferring 50K (Select limit) to Choice to get some cheap Southwest flights until I realized Southwest doesn't serve my neck of the woods. I don't normally fly anyway but 6 roundtrip flights + companion travel was a good deal and I may have used a couple for relatives if that was allowed.
> I'm just glad that AlanB told me this was shutdown so I could put the issue to rest.
> 
> Personally, I would be more upset if AGR raised the point values for their train travel rewards. That is
> ...


 I tell you something that would be nice also. Remember a few years ago when agr had a sale with a 20% discount on points redemsions. It would be nice if they brought that back again.


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