# Seamless fare collection systems in US/Canadian cities in 2022



## Fenway (Mar 31, 2022)

Over the past 10 years, I have accumulated fare cards in many cities. Charlie Card, Metro Card, Key Card, Smartcard, OPUS, Presto, Ventra, TAP, Orca and Clipper.

By seamless I mean a card that works on all platforms - subway, bus, commuter rail, and in some markets ferries. 

From my own recent travels, I have found Chicago (Ventra) and Philadelphia (Key) to work the best after bumpy rollouts.

OMNY looks promising as they are finally upgrading from the 1995 MetroCard and never upgraded like Chicago did with Chicago Card.

Presto in Ontario has been a brutal rollout but Montreal seemed to have better success with OPUS.

Charlie Card in Boston rolled out in late 2006 and never worked as designed and now the MBTA hopes to have a new Cubic system in place by 2024 but at a ridiculous cost.



In a perfect world, I would like to see a universal transit card as we have with toll road transponders (EZPass) but that will never happen.


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## Willbridge (Mar 31, 2022)

There are quite a few systems that are seamless, usually with newer rail systems added to a regional bus system. The Denver area with local buses, regional buses, light rail, and commuter rail was seamless and then CDOT began the Bustang network with an incompatible fare system. Some months ago, discussions began on how to remedy this.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 31, 2022)

Fenway said:


> In a perfect world, I would like to see a universal transit card as we have with toll road transponders (EZPass) but that will never happen.


Where I live toll card compatibility required a literal act of congress and outside of two neighboring states the law is still mostly ignored a decade later. So far as I can tell this is not caused by technical limitations so much as wanting to charge outsiders a higher non-tagged rate and booking more orphaned account funds. While I would like a fully integrated transit payment system like _Suica_ or _Passmo_ there is nothing but a clumsy and inefficient bus network to use it on. 









Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org












Suica - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org












City, county judge deliver death blows to streetcar


The city's support for VIA Metropolitan Transit's project evaporated Monday, and the...




www.expressnews.com


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 31, 2022)

I think the two cards used by Washington, DC and Baltimore are seemless, but I’ve only used them for their metro systems. They are interchangeable between the two cities.


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## Trogdor (Mar 31, 2022)

Orca in Seattle works across all public transit platforms in the region, IIRC. Compass in Vancouver does, as well. Clipper in the Bay Area.

Ventra in Chicago is questionable, at best, thanks to Metra not actually accepting the Ventra card. Instead, you must use the app to buy a fare to display on your phone, whereas buses & L trains all require either a physical card or a card stored in your phone’s wallet to tap & pay. Also, Ventra is not accepted on South Shore Line.

The ones I noted above all allow you to use the same physical card without any further intervention or device, provided you have enough fare balance available.

The Opus card in Montreal is somewhat of a mess. It isn’t a balance-based system, but instead requires passes or rides to be purchased, and if you travel across systems (e.g. STM connecting to STL), you need to purchase separate rides, in advance, for each system.

I haven’t really used the Septa Key all that much, so I don’t recall how their fares work, but I think you can at least ride most services in the region provided you have adequate fare balance. Is SEPTA Key accepted on NJT buses & trains that serve Philadelphia?

Otherwise, I think the best integration is probably Compass in Vancouver, as the entire transit network is managed by one agency with actual fare integration between modes (commuter rail does charge a premium, but allows full cross-mode transfers to bus, SkyTrain and SeaBus).

The Bay Area is a joke with approximately 275 different transit agencies all serving the same area with tons of overlap, and often little-to-no transfer benefit.

The TAP card in LA almost does, but Metrolink doesn’t seem to accept it as fare payment in any form.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 31, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> I think the two cards used by Washington, DC and Baltimore are seemless, but I’ve only used them for their metro systems. They are interchangeable between the two cities.


Unfortunately, they don't work for the MARC or VRE commuter rail systems.


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## Ryan (Mar 31, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> I think the two cards used by Washington, DC and Baltimore are seemless, but I’ve only used them for their metro systems. They are interchangeable between the two cities.


They also work on the DC Circulator busses (and WMATA's own busses, of course). Not sure about some of the other (mostly) county-based bus operators. They'll never be brought to bear on the two commuter rail systems because of the differing fare mentality (WMATA: tap in with card, VRE/MARC: Proof of payment to conductors).

Edit to add:


MARC Rider said:


> Unfortunately, they don't work for the MARC or VRE commuter rail systems.


I'm not sure what's unfortunate about it. As I typed at the same time you were typing, they're completely different from one another and it's as close to zero effort to pay for each separately.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 31, 2022)

Dallas-Fort Worth was a pretty good system, but it's not a card, it works on a mobile device. You can buy a day pass (and a half-day pass, too) that's good for the DART light rail, buses, the Ft. Worth buses, TRE commuter rail, and TEXRail from Ft. Worth to the DFW airport.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryan said:


> They also work on the DC Circulator busses (and WMATA's own busses, of course). Not sure about some of the other (mostly) county-based bus operators. They'll never be brought to bear on the two commuter rail systems because of the differing fare mentality (WMATA: tap in with card, VRE/MARC: Proof of payment to conductors).
> 
> Edit to add:
> 
> I'm not sure what's unfortunate about it. As I typed at the same time you were typing, they're completely different from one another and it's as close to zero effort to pay for each separately.


Do you know if the Washington SmartTrip cars works on Baltimore MTA buses? Also, the Baltimore Light Rail is proof of payment with random inspection, and I'm not sure if the ticket machines tallow for tap and pay to obtain a ticket to show the fare inspectors. The Baltimore Metro is still using farecards, I think, so I'm not sure how the tap and pay works there. The last time I rode, I showed my ID to the attendant in order to get the senior fare, and paid cash.


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## Ryan (Mar 31, 2022)

My answer was very DC focused. I agree that Baltimore is a hot mess of non-interoperable systems.


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## slasher-fun (Mar 31, 2022)

Fenway said:


> In a perfect world, I would like to see a universal transit card as we have with toll road transponders (EZPass) but that will never happen.


You'll find that, but in Europe:
- the Netherlands has a single fare system for every bus/tram/subway/train (except some international long-distance) in the country. Oh, and it gives you access to bike-sharing at train stations as well OV-chipkaart - Everything about travelling
- Austria offers unlimited bus/tram/subway/train trips in the country for a fixed price (€1095/year) KlimaTicket


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## jiml (Mar 31, 2022)

Ontario's Presto is geared towards commuters and not people who use transit occasionally. As seniors it's much easier to simply walk on the GO bus that stops nearest our home, the driver says "Two seniors to where?" and pay with a credit card. To get senior Presto cards we'd need to travel to downtown Toronto, obtain photo ID proving our ages and load Presto cards - all for a fare that's actually more per ride than "pay-as-you-go". The benefit of Presto is that there's a monthly cap and rides are free after enough are taken. Presto was also good on our local transit until Covid, when the service ceased and all the bus stops have subsequently been removed so it's not coming back. As a sidebar, even GO Transit has not come close to restoring pre-pandemic services (bus and train) either, so having a Presto card is even more useless and reliance on cars in our somewhat isolated community has become a fact of life.

Also echo the earlier comment in the thread about the Presto roll-out being a mess.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryan said:


> My answer was very DC focused. I agree that Baltimore is a hot mess of non-interoperable systems.


Which is ironic, because all of the systems are run by the same state agency.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 31, 2022)

Of the ones mentioned I have only used Charlie Card in Boston. It is frustrating that the card can't be used for commuter rail as they are all run by the same outfit MBTA but perhaps the new system will fix that.


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## Trogdor (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryan said:


> They also work on the DC Circulator busses (and WMATA's own busses, of course). Not sure about some of the other (mostly) county-based bus operators. They'll never be brought to bear on the two commuter rail systems because of the differing fare mentality (WMATA: tap in with card, VRE/MARC: Proof of payment to conductors).
> 
> Edit to add:
> 
> I'm not sure what's unfortunate about it. As I typed at the same time you were typing, they're completely different from one another and it's as close to zero effort to pay for each separately.



I'll disagree on this one. Fares can be integrated (granted, there's a huge political struggle with that, given two states and a district all wanting to have a say), but even if transfer privileges aren't offered, there's tons of benefit to having a common payment platform.

Lots of systems with "Proof of Payment" use transit tap cards. Orca in Seattle is valid on Sounder, Clipper is valid on Caltrain. They have tap-card readers at the stations on the platform, either spaced throughout the platform if the station is particularly busy, or at the very least, located next to the ticket vending machine. You tap on at your boarding station, the conductors on board have a validator that can read your card to ensure it was tapped, and then you tap off at your destination and it calculates your fare.

You can load multi-ride or unlimited-ride passes on your card, and then use the same card to board local transit at one or the other end (or both). While you might think it's "close to zero effort" to pay separately, why should someone have to carry multiple cards to ride for their commute? Why should a visitor have to figure out multiple different payment systems to get the best overall deal on fares?

It seems perfectly easy to the regular rider who's always done it to buy different fares from different agencies, sure. But when you see how it's done elsewhere, you soon realize how ridiculous the parochialism and territorialism of different government-funded agencies all effectively doing the same thing is.

On the one hand, you have VRE, MARC, and WMATA all requiring different fares. On the other hand, when I visited Brussels a few years ago, my transit day pass was valid on all local buses, trams, commuter and even *intercity *trains (between the local in-city stations). That would be the approximate equivalent of an MBTA day pass allowing you to take an Amtrak Regional from South Station to Back Bay or Route 128.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 31, 2022)

Trogdor said:


> Lots of systems with "Proof of Payment" use transit tap cards. Orca in Seattle is valid on Sounder, Clipper is valid on Caltrain. They have tap-card readers at the stations on the platform, either spaced throughout the platform if the station is particularly busy, or at the very least, located next to the ticket vending machine. You tap on at your boarding station, the conductors on board have a validator that can read your card to ensure it was tapped, and then you tap off at your destination and it calculates your fare.


The last time I rode SEPTA Regional Rail, you could use your Key card to access and ride between 30th St. and Jefferson. Outside of that, you were supposed to tap your card at the card reader on the station platform, but then a conductor still came by while on the train to read your card. I boarded at Media, with an ungated platform, but when I detrained at Suburban Station, I had to pass through a faregate. I wonder what would have happened if I hadn't tapped my card at Media and the conductor never came around (which sometimes happens on SEPTA.)


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## Fenway (Mar 31, 2022)

Fare collection has always been 'fun'


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 31, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Do you know if the Washington SmartTrip cars works on Baltimore MTA buses? Also, the Baltimore Light Rail is proof of payment with random inspection, and I'm not sure if the ticket machines tallow for tap and pay to obtain a ticket to show the fare inspectors. The Baltimore Metro is still using farecards, I think, so I'm not sure how the tap and pay works there. The last time I rode, I showed my ID to the attendant in order to get the senior fare, and paid cash.


I use the Bal Metro. I buy a one day pass on my card and use the card at the gates - entering & exiting.
It’s been a few years since I used the light rail but I when I did I never got a ticket to show them. It was on my day pass also


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## jis (Mar 31, 2022)

slasher-fun said:


> You'll find that, but in Europe:
> - the Netherlands has a single fare system for every bus/tram/subway/train (except some international long-distance) in the country. Oh, and it gives you access to bike-sharing at train stations as well OV-chipkaart - Everything about travelling
> - Austria offers unlimited bus/tram/subway/train trips in the country for a fixed price (€1095/year) KlimaTicket


I absolutely love the OV-chipkarte. In a perfect world each country would have one!

The other one that is similar is the Singapore EZ-link.

But Suica in Japan comes pretty close.

US unfortunately has ways to go while some of the more recently adopted systems have the potential. For example NY OMNY uses the same platform as London Oyster, but has about a third of the functionality of Oyster. Of course training Commuter train riders in the Tri-State area to tap on/tap off would be something.


AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Of the ones mentioned I have only used Charlie Card in Boston. It is frustrating that the card can't be used for commuter rail as they are all run by the same outfit MBTA but perhaps the new system will fix that.


Same problem about training people to tap on/tap off will be faced in Boston if one attempts to get a single fare collection system adopted across the board.


MARC Rider said:


> The last time I rode SEPTA Regional Rail, you could use your Key card to access and ride between 30th St. and Jefferson. Outside of that, you were supposed to tap your card at the card reader on the station platform, but then a conductor still came by while on the train to read your card. I boarded at Media, with an ungated platform, but when I detrained at Suburban Station, I had to pass through a faregate. I wonder what would have happened if I hadn't tapped my card at Media and the conductor never came around (which sometimes happens on SEPTA.)


I don't know what SEPTA does, but in Oyster-land as far as I recall they will put a charge of the farthest point from which you could have arrived, which can be quite hefty. But fortunately the day cap will make sure that nothing else is ever charged on it for the rest of the day! In my utter foolishness I did suffer this ignominy once in London, but fortunately it was on the Croydon LRT network, so damage was not that huge. And I did travel more zones than just the Croydon LRT fare zones, so I did get to have more stuff charged before hitting day cap.


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## jebr (Mar 31, 2022)

MSP has a _very_ well-integrated system with the Go-To card. Despite having commuter rail (granted, ran by the same agency that runs the majority of local transit,) light rail, and bus service (including service run by both the major agency and 4 suburban transit agencies,) there's a single fare media across all of them, single fare structure across all fixed-route service, and a single set of passes that work across every agency. The only notable exception is the dial-a-ride services some agencies offer - though even then they'll usually give you a transfer to/from fixed-route service.

Its biggest hiccups currently is that there's no fare-capping (so you have to buy passes in advance instead of the card automatically applying passes once you hit the threshold for it) and that reloading it is still kind of annoying, particularly online (since it can take until the next morning for the fare to be available to use on buses unless you validate at a light rail or rapid bus station with a station-based reader.) Overall, though, compared to other metro areas the experience is quite seamless in my experience.


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## JayPea (Mar 31, 2022)

I'm not familiar with any transit systems other than the Seattle area's, but the ORCA card works very well. It works with all of the area's bus services as well as the Link light rail and Sounder commuter trains. Not to mention the ferry system, Seattle street cars, and even the monorail. ORCA is an acronym for One Regional Card for All and it really lives up to its name. Cardholders can add to the purse amount as needed on the card, tap the card reader and you're good to go.


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## Train3414 (Apr 1, 2022)

LA County has the TAP Card, which works on most transit providers. You can load prepaid value onto the card, and when you board, you tap your card and the fare is deducted. You can also load passes onto the card, including the LA County EZ Pass, which is valid on a number of agencies (with zone up charges for certain services.) The card doesn't work for fare payment on Metrolink, our commuter rail system, but Metrolink tickets with an origin or destination in LA County are enabled to work on TAP validators to provide transfers (includes transfers at no extra charge to many transit services in LA County.)


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## Deni (Apr 1, 2022)

jis said:


> I absolutely love the OV-chipkarte. In a perfect world each country would have one!


OV-chipkarte is so great! So easy to use.


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## dwebarts (Apr 1, 2022)

Ryan said:


> They also work on the DC Circulator busses (and WMATA's own busses, of course). Not sure about some of the other (mostly) county-based bus operators. They'll never be brought to bear on the two commuter rail systems because of the differing fare mentality (WMATA: tap in with card, VRE/MARC: Proof of payment to conductors).


They work on both Montgomery County (MD) Ride On and Fairfax County (VA) Connector buses, which makes sense since they stop at WMATA stops in both jurisdictions.

It would be great if there were tie-ins with MARC and VRE, though it's unlikely for the reason you mentioned. Any system they came up with would undoubtedly make the WMATA/Charm situation worse instead of making VRE/MARC better.


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## jis (Apr 1, 2022)

Ryan said:


> They also work on the DC Circulator busses (and WMATA's own busses, of course). Not sure about some of the other (mostly) county-based bus operators. They'll never be brought to bear on the two commuter rail systems because of the differing fare mentality (WMATA: tap in with card, VRE/MARC: Proof of payment to conductors).


At least one workable way to integrate VRE/MARC into the farecard system of choice is to convert them to tap on/tap off. Of course they could still do POP check on board to their heart's content. So doing the integratin should not affect any Union jobs though the number of fare checkers probably can be cut back, specially if platform barriers are put in place at the center city stations. This is the general practice in very large metropolises like London.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 1, 2022)

jis said:


> In a perfect world each country would have one!


In a perfect world every card would work in any country.  



jis said:


> But Suica in Japan comes pretty close.


Suica is so simple and seamless you quickly forget it's unusual. Until you return to the land of perpetual disfunction. At which point it seems alien again.


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## Danib62 (Apr 19, 2022)

I think what we're going to see over the next 20 years is universal acceptance of contactless credit cards and digital wallets like Apple Pay and Google Pay (also known as open loop payments) and the concept of having specialized fare cards receding into the sunset. Have already used a credit card stored on my iPhone to pay for transit in Dallas and Portland, OR. It's dead simple. As an interim step you might also see farecards stored in digital wallets. I have SmarTrip (DC), tap (LA), Ventra (Chicago), and Clipper (Bay Area) cards all stored on my phone in my Apple Wallet. It's great because when I go back to these cities I don't need to worry about forgetting my card at home ever again.


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## jis (Apr 19, 2022)

Danib62 said:


> I think what we're going to see over the next 20 years is universal acceptance of contactless credit cards and digital wallets like Apple Pay and Google Pay (also known as open loop payments) and the concept of having specialized fare cards receding into the sunset. Have already used a credit card stored on my iPhone to pay for transit in Dallas and Portland, OR. It's dead simple. As an interim step you might also see farecards stored in digital wallets. I have SmarTrip (DC), tap (LA), Ventra (Chicago), and Clipper (Bay Area) cards all stored on my phone in my Apple Wallet. It's great because when I go back to these cities I don't need to worry about forgetting my card at home ever again.


That is indeed what I do for all systems that accept open loop NFC fare collection. Very convenient. Actually the first time I used such was in London on their Oyster system a while back. The first time I used it in the US was in Portland OR.


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## Danib62 (Apr 19, 2022)

Portland's system is awesome! Open loop systems with fare capping just make taking transit so convenient and frictionless. No having to think about whether a pass is "worth it" or not. No having to go out of your way to find a fare vending machine or a merchant who carries a specialized card. It really is the future and makes life so much easier when you're just briefly visiting a city.


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## JontyMort (Apr 19, 2022)

jis said:


> That is indeed what I do for all systems that accept open loop NFC fare collection. Very convenient. Actually the first time I used such was in London on their Oyster system a while back. The first time I used it in the US was in Portland OR.


Things move fast. Oyster - at least in Pay As You Go mode - is no longer a requirement for London, since you can use any contactless credit or debit card to touch in and touch out on the readers - in effect making any card an Oyster Card. Admittedly you have to remember which card you used at the beginning, and you can’t just plonk your credit card wallet on the reader without risking that latest addition to the dictionary - “card clash”.


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## jis (Apr 19, 2022)

JontyMort said:


> Things move fast. Oyster - at least in Pay As You Go mode - is no longer a requirement for London, since you can use any contactless credit or debit card to touch in and touch out on the readers - in effect making any card an Oyster Card. Admittedly you have to remember which card you used at the beginning, and you can’t just plonk your credit card wallet on the reader without risking that latest addition to the dictionary - “card clash”.


Yes of course. The underlying system is a specific installation of the Cubic platform which forms the basis of the "Oyster" system of London, for the want of a better specific name, even when no Oyster Card is involved.

This is true of the "OMNY" system of New York, based on the same Cubic platform as used in London. One can now use the NY OMNY system without ever owning an OMNY Card too.

BTW, when I said "used the Oyster System" above I was referring to using it using my iPhone. Of course I had used the Oyster system with an Oyster Card many years before that.


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## Danib62 (Apr 19, 2022)

I do wonder if they will ever stop naming payment systems altogether.


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## BCL (Aug 3, 2022)

jis said:


> Yes of course. The underlying system is a specific installation of the Cubic platform which forms the basis of the "Oyster" system of London, for the want of a better specific name, even when no Oyster Card is involved.
> 
> This is true of the "OMNY" system of New York, based on the same Cubic platform as used in London. One can now use the NY OMNY system without ever owning an OMNY Card too.
> 
> BTW, when I said "used the Oyster System" above I was referring to using it using my iPhone. Of course I had used the Oyster system with an Oyster Card many years before that.



Cubic seems to be the biggest vendor, although I'm not sure what their value proposition is when it comes to NFC fare cards from mobile devices. I remember Cubic because they were one of the original ticket equipment suppliers for the BART system in the San Francisco Bay Area. They had machines that could give change, although it was also possible to get to an exact value on a ticket by using their (IBM) change machines that took $1/$5 bills. A dollar would give out 3 quarters, two dimes, and a nickel. A half dollar (yes they were equipped to accept half dollars) would give out two quarters. And two quarters would give out two dimes and a nickel. IBM was the other supplier, which didn't really make sense. And IBM supplied the fare gates.

But Cubic is probably making their money with the gate equipment and the readers. I think they supply the vending machines used by the SF Bay Area's MTC Clipper and LA County's TAP system which I understand is spearheaded by LA Metro.



https://www.cubic.com/news-events/news/cubic-and-mtc-launch-clipper-iphone-and-apple-watch




https://www.cubic.com/news-events/news/cubic-and-la-metro-release-contactless-fare-payment-option-android


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## BCL (Aug 4, 2022)

BCL said:


> Cubic seems to be the biggest vendor, although I'm not sure what their value proposition is when it comes to NFC fare cards from mobile devices. I remember Cubic because they were one of the original ticket equipment suppliers for the BART system in the San Francisco Bay Area. They had machines that could give change, although it was also possible to get to an exact value on a ticket by using their (IBM) change machines that took $1/$5 bills. A dollar would give out 3 quarters, two dimes, and a nickel. A half dollar (yes they were equipped to accept half dollars) would give out two quarters. And two quarters would give out two dimes and a nickel. IBM was the other supplier, which didn't really make sense. And IBM supplied the fare gates.



Strangely enough I found a history of this in some BART document. Cubic came later after IBM.



https://webapps.bart.gov/bfs/BFS_3_1_Spec/STDSPEC/34%2050%2010.pdf

Generations of Equipment. Prior to 2002, there were three generations of existing equipment. The first- generation equipment was provided by IBM in 1972-3. The second-generation equipment was provided by Cubic Western Data (Cubic) in 1974-5. The third-generation equipment was provided by Scheidt and Bachmann GmbH (S&B) in 1995-7. Functionally, the Cubic equipment is virtually identical to the IBM equipment, except that change can be returned from the ticket vendors and addfare machines when a ticket transaction is involved. The second-generation equipment was enhanced primarily for treasury activities such as bulk loading coin hoppers and bill stackers. Dedicated money changers located in both the free and paid areas of each station provide change for the IBM equipment. IBM and Cubic TVM and AFM accept bills and coins for payment and issue BART Blue tickets only. The S&B equipment includes TVM, AFM and fare gates in the five recently opened stations, and Credit/Debit Vendors (C/DV) in 20 of the original 34 stations. The S&B TVM accept bills, coins, credit or debit card for payment and give change. The AFM accept bills and coins for payment and give change. The S&B Credit/Debit Vendors accept bills and credit or debit cards for payment. Scheidt and Bachmann’s TVM and Credit/Debit Vendors issue BART Blue and BART-Plus tickets.​​Under AFC Modernization program contract 47BC-110, all fare collection equipment systemwide, including TVMs, AFMs and fare gates were replaced in 2003 with equipment provided by Cubic Transportation Systems (CTS). The equipment delivered by CTS and subsequently modified by either CTS or the District included the following functionalities:​
There was also these limited number of machines (Charge-A-Ticket) that were different in that the tickets were in rolls that were then cut into tickets. These tickets were easily recognized by a little excess material (can't think of a technical term for it), although I would often trim it without any problem using it. They were the system's first fare equipment that accepted credit cards, an







I found a photo of BART's previous equipment. The change machine on the right looks like the ones still in service (only makes change for $10s and $20s into $5s), but the rest of the equipment is IBM and Cubic. 5-7 are IBM. 4 is Cubic, which had these little buttons to increase or decrease the ticket amount in $1 or 5 cent increments. It also had a change slot, but the IBM fare machines only had a slot for rejected coins (or cancelled transactions).






However, BART has gone exclusively with Cubic now, which probably makes it a lot easier to integrate with the Clipper fare card system rather than do all sorts of hacks to get it to work.


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