# Atlanta to Florida



## guest (Jul 10, 2008)

Has this route ever existed?

There are thousands people traveling every year from Florida to Georgia mountains

and from Georgia to Florida. It could be a great route considering it's not long.

Are there any plans to establish it?


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## the_traveler (Jul 10, 2008)

Many (many) years ago, there was a route by some railroads between ATL and Florida. And I think that in the early years of Amtrak (like the 70's or 80's), there may have been one - but not in the last 20 years or so.

I think it would be a good route to have. Especially since now to go from Florida to ATL involves a routing via WAS and 2 night on the train. (Not that it's a problem for me!  )


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## George Harris (Jul 10, 2008)

There has been no Atlanta to Florida passenger trains since prior to Amtrak. There have been studies, but so far no one willing to do anything other than call for a study. In times past, there were multiple trains on multiple routes.

The last train standing was the final remnant of the Dixie Flyer, which ran overnight between Atlanta Union Station and Jacksonville. Nine hours each way. Don't know whether this train made it to A-day or not, but it did make it into the late 60's, at least. For many years this had been a Chicago to Florida train, but was post WW2 a secondary run. The portion north of Atlanta dissapeared in 1965 or thereabouts. The track is still there and is the CSX main line. Runs Atlanta - Manchester - Cordele - Waycross - Jacksonville.

Southern had trains on two routes. Up until the mid 1960's there was the Kansas City - Florida Special that ran KC to Jacksonville. It ran overnight Atlanta - Macon - Jesup - Jacksonville. The Jesup - Jacksonville segment was killed off first, which with loss of any through passenger shortly led to the discontinuation of the rest of the route. The track for this route is all still in place, but Macon - Jesup is a low speed light traffic unsignaled branch line. There have been proposals to restore service using this route south of Macon and on the ex CofG line north of Macon due to lack of problems with freight interference, but the work needed to run a reasonably fast schedule would be costly.

On their other route, Atlanta - Macon - Cordele - Valdosta - through the swamps direct to Jacksonville they had a day train and a nigth train, both running from Cincinatti with through cars from points north. They were the Royal Palm overnight and the Ponce de Leon daytime Chatanooga to Jacksonville. The track for this route is all still in place and still main line. The Ponce de Leon was kille off first with the Royal Palm going a couple of years thereafter, both gone before 1968.

Central of Georgia - Atlantic Coast Line, Atlanta -Griffin - Macon - Albany - Waycross - Jacksonville. This route also had a day train and a night train up until sometime in the early to mid 1960's, at one point carrying through cars from northern points that came in on the L&N from Cincinatti. Part of the Albany to Waycross line has been abandoned. Points north of Albany are lightly traveled, probably need work for any decent speed. There was also the Southland, overnight Atlanta to Tampa and St Petersburg up until the late 1950's. It ran almost due south out of Albany through Thomasville and on down the western part of the Florida Peninsula partly on a line known as the Perry Cutoff. Much of the route south of Albany has been abandoned. This train was through out of Chicago via Cincinatti.


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## wayman (Jul 10, 2008)

George Harris said:


> There has been no Atlanta to Florida passenger trains since prior to Amtrak. There have been studies, but so far no one willing to do anything other than call for a study. In times past, there were multiple trains on multiple routes.


Have the studies actually been carried out? What were the reports? Is there a reason (as in, did any study conclude with evidence) to think ATL-JAX would be a dud?


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## Rail Freak (Jul 10, 2008)

George Harris said:


> There has been no Atlanta to Florida passenger trains since prior to Amtrak. There have been studies, but so far no one willing to do anything other than call for a study. In times past, there were multiple trains on multiple routes.
> The last train standing was the final remnant of the Dixie Flyer, which ran overnight between Atlanta Union Station and Jacksonville. Nine hours each way. Don't know whether this train made it to A-day or not, but it did make it into the late 60's, at least. For many years this had been a Chicago to Florida train, but was post WW2 a secondary run. The portion north of Atlanta dissapeared in 1965 or thereabouts. The track is still there and is the CSX main line. Runs Atlanta - Manchester - Cordele - Waycross - Jacksonville.
> 
> Southern had trains on two routes. Up until the mid 1960's there was the Kansas City - Florida Special that ran KC to Jacksonville. It ran overnight Atlanta - Macon - Jesup - Jacksonville. The Jesup - Jacksonville segment was killed off first, which with loss of any through passenger shortly led to the discontinuation of the rest of the route. The track for this route is all still in place, but Macon - Jesup is a low speed light traffic unsignaled branch line. There have been proposals to restore service using this route south of Macon and on the ex CofG line north of Macon due to lack of problems with freight interference, but the work needed to run a reasonably fast schedule would be costly.
> ...


Back in the 70's I had a Hot Air Balloon Business in Chattanooga. I used to think the town was ugly from the air because of the rails in downtown! (Little did I know ) Does Chattanooga get much rail traffic these days?


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## Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee_* (Jul 10, 2008)

Rail Freak said:


> Does Chattanooga get much rail traffic these days?


Heck yeah! Does it ever.... I believe both CSX and NS serve Chattanooga today, and both have heavily traveled trackage between there and ATL.

OBS gone freight...


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## AlanB (Jul 10, 2008)

Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee_* said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > Does Chattanooga get much rail traffic these days?
> ...


Sadly though the beautiful downtown station no longer sees any passenger trains though. Up until a few years ago a local tourist RR Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum used to run a train or two downtown, but not anymore. Can't recall if it was NS or CSX, but one of them decided that it was too much trouble to cross the service over the mains. 

However, there is a Holiday Inn at the station that in addition to more traditional rooms, also has rooms that one can book that are located in old railcars on real tracks on the platforms of the old station. It's kind of odd to see a door with an electronic keycard lock on an old 10-6 sleeper. :blink:


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## wayman (Jul 10, 2008)

AlanB said:


> However, there is a Holiday Inn at the station that in addition to more traditional rooms, also has rooms that one can book that are located in old railcars on real tracks on the platforms of the old station. It's kind of odd to see a door with an electronic keycard lock on an old 10-6 sleeper. :blink:


You can pay money... to stay in a roomette... that _doesn't move_? :blink:

But seriously, how much have the interiors been changed?

Conceptually, this sounds sort of like the camping coaches in Britain.


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## George Harris (Jul 10, 2008)

wayman said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > There has been no Atlanta to Florida passenger trains since prior to Amtrak. There have been studies, but so far no one willing to do anything other than call for a study. In times past, there were multiple trains on multiple routes.
> ...


Haven't looked at the site in a couple years, but it is www.garail.com. The last thing that sounded even like a possibility was some commuter sservice into Atlanta, on the old CofG line toward Macon as far as Lovejoy. The rest seems to be in the fantasy category, and that may be also.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jul 10, 2008)

wayman said:


> You can pay money... to stay in a roomette... that _doesn't move_? :blink:


That sounds like an excellent idea. The night after the first night I slept in a Viewliner Roomette, I was rather annoyed that the hotel room I was sleeping in wasn't a Viewliner Roomette. Even though the hotel room did include a shower as a part of the room.

And of course, if you have infinite money to throw at the sleeper-on-the-Twilight-Shoreliner problem, you should be able to charter a private car, and park it at the train station at your destination, and use that as your hotel. It's probably even pretty cost effective for a party that needs several rooms when compared to the cost of shipping the car to somewhere with cheaper parking and then getting normal hotel rooms, if you were going to pay for the car for the moving parts of the trip anyway.


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## AlanB (Jul 10, 2008)

wayman said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > However, there is a Holiday Inn at the station that in addition to more traditional rooms, also has rooms that one can book that are located in old railcars on real tracks on the platforms of the old station. It's kind of odd to see a door with an electronic keycard lock on an old 10-6 sleeper. :blink:
> ...


From what I could see, almost everything had been changed. There were only two hotels room per car, they had a big Queen (maybe King) bed in the room, and I'm sure a toilet and shower. But the walls were still original, as were the stairs up into the car, windows were original and I think even some of the light fixtures were original.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 11, 2008)

Just some thoughts from this native Chattanoogan.

The two very best trains ever from Altanta to Florida were the Dixie Flagler(Chicago, Evansville, Nashville,Chattanooga,Atlanta, Jacksonville,Miami) re-named the Dixieland in Dec. 1954. It was discontinued Nov. 1957. That left the old Dxiie Flyer, described several posts ago by George Harris.

The other top notch train was the winter version of the Royal Palm, called the New Royal Palm. It ran Detroit (and Cleveland, Buffao, Chicago through cars) to Cincinnati, Lexington, Chattanooga,Atlanta, Macon, Jack, Miami.

There were other trains, as aptly decribed by George Harris--I am just pointing out my "personal best".

Chattanooga does still indeed have much, much long distance freight on several main lines. Today's NS was the former Southern RR. Today's CSX was the former Louisville and Nashville. Before that, in 1957, it had been the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis RR.

The station still standing in Chattanooga, now known as the Chattanooga Choo Choo, was the former Terminal Station of the Southern Railroad. Trains went to Knoxville, Washington, NYC, Miami, Birmingham, New Orleans, Detorit,Memphis.etc,etc. There was another station. the Union Station, now destroyed. Trains there went priimarily to CHicago , Nashville, Evansville and St. Louis or to Atlanta and Florida points. Those were the L&N trains, (originally NC&StL).

There is a nice model train display upstairs at the Choo Choo Hotel which models both stations which used to exist in Chattanooga. Some of the equipment is accurate but some is not, inasmuch as it shows some Amtrak superliners. Amtrak never served Chattanooga at all.

As Alan pointed out the railroad cars are sold as unit space of one half a railcar. In no way corresponding to what we would call roomettes and bedrooms today. The ancestry of the cars is widespread and various. Some were lightweight, some were heavyweight. They were not all sleepers, indeed some were New York Central coaches, but extensively rebult It is not that far-fetched to have Nw York Central equipment in CHA since the Royal Palm, New Royal Palm and Ponce de Leon interacted with NYC above Cincinnati to such places as Detroit, Cleveland, etc.

I doubt that any of the cars at the Choo Choo were 10-6 sleepers. 10-6 came to be well known today since that is mostly what Amtrak inherited. But there were many other designs as well. So far as I recall, all 10-6's were lightweight streamlined cars; no heavyweight.

Speaking of Chattanooga having two downtown stations, let it be said that Atlatna had two downtown stations at one time as well. About eight railroads served those two stations.

The original question was just about Atlanta to Florida travel. That is a big enough deal. But Chicago to Florida was an even bigger, a separate matter by itself. As there were trains which did not go through either Atlanta or Chattanooga.

Oh yes, the train Amtrak inherited, the South Wind, went Chicago,Indy, Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham,Montgomery Jacksonville and Miami. Not Atlanta or Chattanooga. Shortly after acquiring the South Wind, Amtrak re-named it the Floridian andit was discontinued in 1979. While some of its route changed around, nothing changed at the southern end, such as to make it go through Atlanta.


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## guest (Jul 14, 2008)

So are there any plans to establish Atlanta to Florida service?

Is there a campaign for it?


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## George Harris (Jul 14, 2008)

guest said:


> So are there any plans to establish Atlanta to Florida service?Is there a campaign for it?


To establish this service would require some serious money.

Through Amtrak? Don't make me laugh they have not bothered to put back on a train (Sunset Limited - East) they could have restored over two years ago.

Through the states of Georgia and Florida? Spend money on passenger rail? Not a chance. If their was a chance, we would have commuter trains into Atlanta already.

Maybe make another study or two? Yeah, why not? Studies are cheap and give some cash to a few friends.


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## Crescent Mark (Jul 15, 2008)

...reminds me of the "toy" Chattanooga Choo Choo I got as a kid. Wow......

"Central of Georgia - Atlantic Coast Line, Atlanta -Griffin - Macon - Albany - Waycross - Jacksonville"

Oh man, that'd be such a great route. I'd love for someday there to be a Chicago -> Indy -> Chattanooga -> ATL -> Macon -> Albany -> JAX line. Unfortunately, funding from GA wouldn't come unless we get a decent Governor. Sonny Perdue made sure we knew that he supported commuter rail before he ran, and what did he do when he got into office? Of course - nothing. Maybe we can get Obama in there for the next Presidential term and maybe we can get a decent Governor in Georgia that'll support some commuter rail.

Atlanta to Lovejoy has been in the works since, I believe, 1999 or even before that. I've grown up my whole life listening to the bickering about that. I live in Griffin....we had a great station but they just turned it into a Welcome Center. It'd be great to see Amtrak someday go through here daily. Actually, we have quite a big NS freight yard right right downtown past the station, so it's cool to go out and see them sometimes. Anyway, the talks died when Sonny got in there. Roy Barnes, the former Governor, started the talks and they were going.....alright, but then they died out. Just recently, they talked of Atlanta to Macon. Sonny actually got right behind that and supported it THIS YEAR when it was brought back up. Hopefully something good becomes of it, because residents in my town would love it.

See this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Rail_Passenger_Program

It needs to be updated, because talks just got started back and I think they might have a chance this time. NS is all set from what I've heard, and cities along the proposed ATL -> Macon line are interested, especially Lovejoy. However, someone can bail out at the last minute like Clayton did last time, and we'd be back at square one.

They want to build a new station in Atlanta, which is REALLY needed. How cool would it be to have a big new station in Five Points that houses:

-MARTA HQ, where the East-West, the North-South, and all other lines connect

-the stop for the Amtrak Crescent when it comes through

-the commuter rail line from Atlanta -> Macon, with future plans for Atlanta -> Savannah and other lines, maybe Atlanta -> Chicago or Atlanta -> JAX

/nerd. I hope they get something done.....


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Jul 16, 2008)

Crescent Mark said:


> Atlanta to Lovejoy has been in the works since, I believe, 1999 or even before that. I've grown up my whole life listening to the bickering about that. I live in Griffin....


Wow... It isn't often to catch a fellow "Griffin-er!" I grew up the first ten years of my life in NW Spalding County over near the river and the Fayette County line before moving down to Central FL. I still have family up that way ( one unlce who actually still lives on the same property), so I get up there on occasion. I was up that way recently for a class in Atlanta for CSX, and while in Griffin over the weekend I noticed that Atlanta is encroaching on Griffin BIG TIME nowdays! Anyway, I have dreamed about some kind of train service on that line through there for a long time! It sure would be nice to not have to drive when going to see any family. And having service there would just about eliminate all driving for me when it pertains to traveling to see kin. I can already ride the train to Greensboro, Columbia, and Charlotte, so if we could have service to Griffin, that would close the link for me! I guess I can keep dreaming!! Anyway, if I remember to do so I'll look you up via a PM on here the next time I head up Griffin way (see if you might be interested in lunch and maybe talk trains).

OBS gone freight...


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## Crescent Mark (Jul 16, 2008)

Amtrak OBS Gone Freight said:


> Crescent Mark said:
> 
> 
> > Atlanta to Lovejoy has been in the works since, I believe, 1999 or even before that. I've grown up my whole life listening to the bickering about that. I live in Griffin....
> ...


Wow that's awesome! Yeah I'd love to have lunch sometime, that'd be great. Just let me know. Griffin keeps growing....we add a little more each year, but Atlanta is getting HUGE. I hope the Atlanta to Macon line actually gets its butt in gear sometime in the next year or so. It wouldn't take that much to get it going...

Funny enough, next week I'm headed to Raleigh to stay with family, but going up, my layover from the Crescent to the Carolinian is in Charlotte, and coming back it's in Greensboro. Small world!


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## Tony (Jul 16, 2008)

AlanB said:


> However, there is a Holiday Inn at the station that in addition to more traditional rooms, also has rooms that one can book that are located in old railcars on real tracks on the platforms of the old station. It's kind of odd to see a door with an electronic keycard lock on an old 10-6 sleeper. :blink:



If anyone is interested, here is a link to their Victorian Train Cars.


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## jackal (Jul 16, 2008)

Tony said:


> If anyone is interested, here is a link to their Victorian Train Cars.





> The only thing missing from your night in a Victorian Train Car is the "clickety-clack" of the rails!


They should do like the California state railroad museum in Sacramento does with their sleeper on display and mount it on hydraulics with speakers and moving lights to give you the sense that you're screaming along at 100mph. It's scarily realistic--I stood in that sleeper for a good 15 minutes just pretending I was actually riding a train. Almost as good as actually booking a real train trip! :lol:


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## landnrailroader (Jul 17, 2008)

George Harris said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > George Harris said:
> ...


I'm retired from CSX, now for 7 years, and at least 10 years prior to my retirement, I believe it was around 1990 or

so, a study was made of reinstating a Chicago-Nashville-Atlanta-Jacksonville route, this being the general route. At that

time NS cited many reasons why they could not (or would not) handle such a train south of Chattanooga, and this pretty

much shut the study down as NS needed to be involved so that Macon would be included in the route. There was never a formal report, that I know of, released. Since then, CSX has indicated that they would be amenable to a Chicago to

Nashville train, depending on the route - any route except the direct Chicago-Evansville-Nashville route, but would not discuss anything south of Nashville. However, money talks and gas was not $4 a gallon in 1990.

One possibility that I have looked at (personally, informally) would be to make the Cardinal daily, and split off a

section at Cincinnati to run to Louiisville & Nashville. Cincinnati-Nashville by that route is sort of a secondary line

while the direct route mentioned above is heavy with Intermodal and much has been spent the past two years to

improve it's capacity, but nowhere near enough to handle passenger.

J. H. Sullivan


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Jul 17, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee_* said:
> 
> 
> > Rail Freak said:
> ...


TVRM discontinued Downtown Arrow service into the Chattanooga Choo-Choo as it is now called because it had to enter NS/CSX joint trackage to get to the station. When the traffic started picking up about 10 years ago it took too long to traverse that short section so they dropped that train. They still however travel from Chattanooga to Chickamauga and Summerville, GA along the same route but by pass the Choo-Choo stop. I would recomment the Steam-All-The-Way trips in June and the Autumn Leaf Specials in October to anyone. They are probably the closest you can get to a Mainline Steam trip in the Southeast. They are both 100mi 7hr roundtrips pulled by steam, usually with a diesel back up, on the Chattooga and Chickamauga Railroad.


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## Rail Freak (Jul 17, 2008)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee_* said:
> ...


.Where would I go to take these routes??? Chattanooga?


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## Crescent Mark (Jul 18, 2008)

Rail Freak said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


bump!! I would also love to know where/how to take these routes....that'd be really cool.

The only steam trip I've ever taken was when I went to the Smoky Mountains a few years back. Actually, I went once and rode the Great Smoky Mountain Railroad stream train, and I liked it so much, I came back and rode it a 2nd time.

I wonder what kind of NS reaction we'd get if they looked into the Chicago -> Jacksonville (through ATL and Chattanooga) route again in present day.


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## George Harris (Jul 18, 2008)

Crescent Mark said:


> I wonder what kind of NS reaction we'd get if they looked into the Chicago -> Jacksonville (through ATL and Chattanooga) route again in present day.


Either: 1. How many different ways do we have to say NO before you get the message?

Or: 2. You can pay for a second track full length, give us an iron clad "hold harmless clause" and then we will think about it.


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## VentureForth (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm just holding my breath for a Savannah to Atlanta connection. It'd be nice to get to parts on the Crescent without having to go to DC. But there just isn't Class I infrastructure between SAV and ATL.


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## George Harris (Jul 21, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> I'm just holding my breath for a Savannah to Atlanta connection. It'd be nice to get to parts on the Crescent without having to go to DC. But there just isn't Class I infrastructure between SAV and ATL.


Since you are holding your breath waiting for this, we need to quickly ask, is there anything special you want said or done at your funeral?


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## Guest_timetableflagman_* (Jul 22, 2008)

How about paying the host rr the same as they get from pulling a trailer train to host a passenger run? Maybe that's when the rr's will start taking passengers seriously.


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## Crescent Mark (Jul 22, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> I'm just holding my breath for a Savannah to Atlanta connection. It'd be nice to get to parts on the Crescent without having to go to DC. But there just isn't Class I infrastructure between SAV and ATL.


That would be VERY nice as it would let everyone southeast of Atlanta get a nice route to Florida. I looked up Atlanta to West Palm, connecting through DC. Almost $400. Wow.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 22, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> I'm just holding my breath for a Savannah to Atlanta connection. It'd be nice to get to parts on the Crescent without having to go to DC. But there just isn't Class I infrastructure between SAV and ATL.



Anybody remember the late, great Nancy Hanks II? I think it was discontineud on Amtrak day, 5/1/71.

Since moving to ATl 30 plus years ago, it is the one train, hands down, that natives think of when they discover that I am a railfan. Never rode it myself but saw it several times.

It was a pretty blue diesel powered streamliner, about 7 cars long as I recall. It left Savannah about 7 a.m.ish- got to ATL about 1 p.m Left ATL 6 p.m. and got back to SAV around midnight.

It was heavily promoted for shopping to the once great Rich's Deparement Store (and Davidsons and others) in ATL.

Tons of groups used it as well as individual folks. Very popular train. Operated by the Central of Georgia R.R. Today that would be one of the many lines blended into, I guess, NS.


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## PetalumaLoco (Jul 22, 2008)

Nanct Hanks II Wikipedia entry.

B&W photo here.


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## MrFSS (Jul 22, 2008)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just holding my breath for a Savannah to Atlanta connection. It'd be nice to get to parts on the Crescent without having to go to DC. But there just isn't Class I infrastructure between SAV and ATL.
> ...


Bill - I have a copy of the last _*Official Guide*_ that was in use right before Amtrak started. At that time C of G had been taken over by _*Southern*_ and there was no train listed for the route you describe. So, it must have been even before close to the end of non-Amtrak passenger service when that train shut down.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 22, 2008)

MrFSS said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...



Yep, then, guess it did shut down before Amtrak. One thing I forgot to mention is that there was an overnight nameless train, with sleeping car on that route also, It, however, did not get nearly as much publicity. I did know Southern had taken over CofG at that time, before it evolved into NS. But in the public mind it was best rmembered by it original owner and operator as a pure C&G train, rather than remembering that Southern took over CofG the last few limp years of its life.


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## wayman (Jul 22, 2008)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > Bill - I have a copy of the last _*Official Guide*_ that was in use right before Amtrak started. At that time C of G had been taken over by _*Southern*_ and there was no train listed for the route you describe. So, it must have been even before close to the end of non-Amtrak passenger service when that train shut down.
> ...


If we figure out what date the Nancy stopped running, someone should update its Wikipedia entry. Wikipedia claims the train ran up until the day before A-Day. Or, perhaps it's possible that Wikipedia is right (shock!) and the Nancy was for some reason left out of the Official Guide, or filed under some unexpected place in the Official Guide?


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 22, 2008)

wayman said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > MrFSS said:
> ...


I can't respond to this from memory, since I am at wori k. I actually thought it did last until A-day but not sure. .


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## MrFSS (Jul 22, 2008)

Well - I have egg on my face. I didn't look far enough. The Official Guide has the Southern tables and then all the Southern freight tables. Then, the C of G table which has this:







Bill - you called the times right on the nose. I never want to play railroad trivia with you!!!


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## George Harris (Jul 22, 2008)

Nancy was a very interesting train in several aspects:

First, the CofG line was not the short route between these points.

290.5 total

102.8 Atlanta to Macon

187.7 Macon to Savannah.

Between Atlanta and Macon, the Southern route through McDonough was only 87.8 miles, but the run time was identical to the Nancy or slower.

Between Macon and Savannah, the Seaboard branch plus MD&S was shorter, but here the trains such as they were were much slower. SAL, Savannah to Vidalia 79.8 miles, then Macon, Dublin & Savannah, Vidalia to Macon 92.3 miles = 172.1 miles. Thus, the railroad short route was 269.9 miles, 18 miles shorter. These tracks are all still there so far as I know, but are low speed branch lines.

Second: The Cof G only had signals between Atlanta and Macon on this route. Macon to Savannah was unsignaled, yet with a government imposed 59 mph speed limit, the schedule required a 50 mph average speed, and that with 5 regular stops and 3 conditional stops. Somehow, I think either the speed limit was ignored or the schedule was not made. The CofG was not noted for long sections of either straight or high quality track, either.

The Nancy also carried a dome in its later years, although I cannot imagine the piney woods of Georgia being a major scenic draw.


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## BobWeaver (Jul 22, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> I'm just holding my breath for a Savannah to Atlanta connection. It'd be nice to get to parts on the Crescent without having to go to DC. But there just isn't Class I infrastructure between SAV and ATL.


NS runs Savannah > Macon > Atlanta.



Crescent Mark said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just holding my breath for a Savannah to Atlanta connection. It'd be nice to get to parts on the Crescent without having to go to DC. But there just isn't Class I infrastructure between SAV and ATL.
> ...


Try a reservation through NC, using 80 or 74.


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## Guest_timetableflagman_* (Jul 23, 2008)

The trouble I see with using the NC trains (73, 74, 79 and 80) is that, if connecting with 19 or 20, the _Crescent_, it involves an overnight layover at Charlotte. There isn't enough time to check into a hotel-- which, to me, would negate much of the logic of good train travel anyway. So, laying over in Charlotte Station (!) is the most logical option. Yet, that isn't very logical either, from a sleeping health standpoint.

I would suggest that the regular _Crescent_ connection with 91 or 92, the _Silver Star_, is more comfortable. The _Star_ is what you'd connect with anyway in East Carolina. I think the NC trains are mostly good commuter and accommodation trains for NC.


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 23, 2008)

I traveled on the Nancy Hanks II from Atlanta to Savannah, the last time in February, 1971. It included the ex Wabash Pullman Standard built Dome Coach built for the City of St. Louis. For a brief period, the ex Wabash Blue Bird Room Parlor car was used on the Nancy Hanks II, but was switched to the Southern Crescent between Atlanta and New Orleans. I had dinner in the Grill Lounge when I traveled in February, 1971. The food was excellent, much better than anything I have had on Amtrak in recent years. It was a very nice trip from Atlanta to Savannah. I traveled on a Saturday evening and the train was crowded. In 1971, Cof G was still operated as a subsidiary of the Southern and was shown seperately in the Official Guide. Since Southern did not join Amtrak on 5/1/1971, if Southern had operated the Nancy Hanks II, they would have had to continue the train, but since it was operated by Cof G which did join Amtrak, it was allowed to be discontinued.


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## wayman (Jul 23, 2008)

Guest_timetableflagman_* said:


> The trouble I see with using the NC trains (73, 74, 79 and 80) is that, if connecting with 19 or 20, the _Crescent_, it involves an overnight layover at Charlotte. There isn't enough time to check into a hotel-- which, to me, would negate much of the logic of good train travel anyway. So, laying over in Charlotte Station (!) is the most logical option. Yet, that isn't very logical either, from a sleeping health standpoint.
> I would suggest that the regular _Crescent_ connection with 91 or 92, the _Silver Star_, is more comfortable. The _Star_ is what you'd connect with anyway in East Carolina. I think the NC trains are mostly good commuter and accommodation trains for NC.


I wonder what would happen to ridership patterns if the Charlotte Station added luggage lockers and a few beds, or even just really comfy recliners, with the stationmaster or an attendant in charge of waking the passengers when their train arrived? Or if someone enterprising opened a small bunkhouse adjacent to the station for this express purpose?

I could imagine the independent operator leasing a small amount of land from whomever owns Charlotte Station for this, which would benefit the station-owner while also perhaps turning a small profit for the owner. It wouldn't have to be just for transferring passengers; it could be for anyone arriving in the middle of the night, who wanted to stay at the station until morning, have breakfast, and be picked up at a normal hour, or for anyone departing in the middle of the night, who wanted to be dropped off in the evening, have dinner, and be awakened when the train is soon to arrive. Running it as largely a restaurant serving dinner and breakfast only, but also having some rooms, I would think you could turn a profit at this, especially with a liquor license.


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## AlanB (Jul 23, 2008)

MrFSS said:


> Well - I have egg on my face. I didn't look far enough. The Official Guide has the Southern tables and then all the Southern freight tables. Then, the C of G table which has this:
> Bill - you called the times right on the nose. I never want to play railroad trivia with you!!!


I know I surely wouldn't want to play RR trivia with Bill and I wouldn't recommend it for other's either unless you really know your stuff. Bill's a whiz at this, especially when it comes to the trains down south that he grew up riding. 

Having railfanned with Bill several times now, I can even picture him in my mind answering that question, "Well now let me think about that. I believe it would have been around ______ or so." :lol:

And if by some miracle Bill doesn't know right off the top of his head, one trip to his apartment will provide the answer.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 23, 2008)

AlanB said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > Well - I have egg on my face. I didn't look far enough. The Official Guide has the Southern tables and then all the Southern freight tables. Then, the C of G table which has this:
> ...



Thanks, Alan. and I would not play NYC subway/commuter with you!


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## VentureForth (Jul 24, 2008)

Forgive my youngness and inexperience. Did the Hanks stop at ALL the stops or only at the ones with a bold time? This timetable shows an average track speed of 48 MPH. Very impressive considering all the stops and small towns it goes through. If this is still all NS track, I wonder if GA could work with NS like North Carolina has...

IF this route were to be reestablished, would ALL stations be included? If not, which should?

An additional interesting note is that to drive this exact route would take over 8 hours. 6 hours is a bargain. BUT, direct to ATL from SAV by car is only about 4 hours...


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## MrFSS (Jul 24, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> Forgive my youngness and inexperience. Did the Hanks stop at ALL the stops or only at the ones with a bold time?


Only the ones with the bold times. The other names of towns were for freight service, or perhaps years before there were locals that did stop at those stations.

No computer generated graphics in those days, so they used the same table and adjusted what stopped where, etc.


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## VentureForth (Jul 24, 2008)

So is it C of G or NS? Is the ROW still active and in place?

BRING ON NANCY HANKS III!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 24, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> So is it C of G or NS? Is the ROW still active and in place?
> BRING ON NANCY HANKS III!



To your earlier quesiton, bold face means PM, light face means AM.

C of Georgia was taken over by the Southern Railroad many years ago, late 1960's I guess. Then various other lines, such as Norfolk & Western, were eventually merged into Norfolk Southern. Today's huge frieght lines are the results of many many mergers dating back to the 50's. CSX, for example, probably dates back to at least 15 railroad companies, back in the days when most of them handled passngers.


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## timetablemanflagman (Jul 24, 2008)

wayman's good proposal was pretty much sufficed by the old Pullman practice of the setout sleeper. By contrast, AMTRAK apparently expects sleeper passengers to wake up and change cars at Spokane between Trains 7 or 8 and 27 or 28! If AMTRAK expects this, then I don't expect them to have even through sleeping cars going onto the connecting trains as could be at Spokane or Cleveland which could make very attractive overnight connections for business travelers between Central (Wenatchee) and Southern (Pasco, Tri-Cities) Washington and Pittsburgh and Buffalo, much less setout sleepers.

The drawback I see with stationary lodging is that the passenger isn't _moving_ while sleeping. The ability to do that is what makes the train sensible for efficient overnight travel instead of wasting a night sleeping in one location-- and, in another situation, potentially taking an arguably wasteful and frenetic hour-long flight-- when one could be on the way while asleep. That's what differentiates the train from a hotel and from driving or flying. AMTRAK's accommodations have been compared to a budget motel yet charging more. But, a budget motel doesn't move you to another city some 300-500 miles further to your destination.

That's why I consider the Alexandria or DC connection better for_ Crescent _and _Silver Star_ passengers than the NC trains. Having to sleep over at a station is, to me, the same as having to drive and do the same or, maybe worse, when flying: having to sleep in an airport. Trains operate differently from autos or planes. I've noticed that many don't realize that and don't really appreciate how much more efficiently trains can work. That's something that's been lost to the decades of auto and plane culture and absence from trains.


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## VentureForth (Jul 24, 2008)

I don't think there is any sleeping over - just a daytime layover from the Carolina service to the Silver Service. That all being said, you still get to Miami at the same time on the same day no matter how you slice it.

You DO save about $60 if you want to spend your day in the station as opposed to on the train...


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## wayman (Jul 24, 2008)

timetablemanflagman said:


> wayman's good proposal was pretty much sufficed by the old Pullman practice of the setout sleeper. By contrast, AMTRAK apparently expects sleeper passengers to wake up and change cars at Spokane between Trains 7 or 8 and 27 or 28! If AMTRAK expects this, then I don't expect them to have even through sleeping cars going onto the connecting trains as could be at Spokane or Cleveland which could make very attractive overnight connections for business travelers between Central (Wenatchee) and Southern (Pasco, Tri-Cities) Washington and Pittsburgh and Buffalo, much less setout sleepers.


Whoops--my proposal was also made on the mistaken belief that the Silver trains stopped in Charlotte 

But why would passengers ever have to change sleeping cars at Spokane? They have separate through sleepers to Portland and Seattle.

Splitting off a sleeper between the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol, that would be awesome. Of course, with the single/double-level equipment, it would be somewhere between messy and impossible  You could do it with a trans-dorm running as the last car (low-end forward on the Pennsylvanian, high-end forward on the Capitol), but it would be a little bit tricky and would probably add at least half an hour to the Capitol's stop at Pittsburgh. You *could* have a through-coach too, but it would be a single-level, and those passengers would be the last car on the Capitol, walking though the trans-dorm to get to the food.... The Capitol running with Superliners really messes this up. Too bad.


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## Guest_timetableflagman_* (Jul 24, 2008)

You're right, wayman. The equipment differences could make through-cars difficult or impossible between some trains where the switch is badly needed. That's why I think AMTRAK needs to get away from assorted types of rolling stock and become more uniform. The option you mention with transition cars is workable: just have the through-cars separated from the rest of the train by the transition car. The number of cars, as in any case, should be dictated by the traffic volume booked.

Some itineraries on the _Empire Builder_ have passengers, booked on perhaps Train 7 or 8, apparently having to change to Train 27 or 28 or vice versa-- presumably because of availability on one train or another. Now, if they just switch the cars-- that's a different matter. I assume, however, that they require the sleeping passenger to change trains (in reality, only change _cars_, since both trains are running as the same consist-- for those who aren't aware of this).

I wouldn't advocate having through-coaches. Coach travel is presumed to be for daytime. Daytime passengers can easily change trains or cars without nearly as much disruption as a sleeping passenger having to do so in the middle of the night. Now, on the other hand, if economical passengers want to take and sleep in coach because it's cheaper than First Class, well, that could justify having through-coaches. I assume, however, that most would want the sleeping car option if going through by two or more trains overnight.


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## AlanB (Jul 24, 2008)

wayman said:


> Splitting off a sleeper between the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol, that would be awesome. Of course, with the single/double-level equipment, it would be somewhere between messy and impossible  You could do it with a trans-dorm running as the last car (low-end forward on the Pennsylvanian, high-end forward on the Capitol), but it would be a little bit tricky and would probably add at least half an hour to the Capitol's stop at Pittsburgh. You *could* have a through-coach too, but it would be a single-level, and those passengers would be the last car on the Capitol, walking though the trans-dorm to get to the food.... The Capitol running with Superliners really messes this up. Too bad.


You'd still have one more big problem, the sleeper wouldn't fit into the Hudson River tunnels or the East River tunnels. So now you'd be switching that sleeper on and off the Pennsy twice, once in Philly and once in Pittsburgh.


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## wayman (Jul 24, 2008)

AlanB said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > Splitting off a sleeper between the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol, that would be awesome. Of course, with the single/double-level equipment, it would be somewhere between messy and impossible  You could do it with a trans-dorm running as the last car (low-end forward on the Pennsylvanian, high-end forward on the Capitol), but it would be a little bit tricky and would probably add at least half an hour to the Capitol's stop at Pittsburgh. You *could* have a through-coach too, but it would be a single-level, and those passengers would be the last car on the Capitol, walking though the trans-dorm to get to the food.... The Capitol running with Superliners really messes this up. Too bad.
> ...


Doh! I knew that, yet forgot it.... I'm glad someone caught my error before Amtrak decided it was a great idea and sheared the roof off a Superliner at the tunnel portal 

I guess the Capitol could run one of _its_ sleepers at the rear, using a trans-dorm (instead of a regular sleeper) for that sleeper (running it as a full-revenue-car, just taking advantage of the two height-conversion aspect); and then have a Viewliner running behind the "rear trans-car", which would be the through-sleeper to the Pennsylvanian. The Capitol would look weird, but it'd work. Of course, this requires spare trans-dorms and spare Viewliners and more precision in cutting the consists than Amtrak might like. (But it wouldn't require a switch engine at Pittsburgh, on the bright side.)

If no equipment is run through Chicago (ie, the Capitol equipment no longer becomes the SWC), why not make the Capitol single-level when Amtrak acquires new single-level equipment (including sleepers and diners) as part of its relaunch, which would allow a lot more flexibility for them to use some of those new sleepers for through cars. The Capitol could leave Chicago with one sleeper to drop in Pittsburgh for the Pennsylvanian and a second to drop in Washington for one of the Florida-bound Silvers, enabling a (circuitous, but single-car ride) Chicago-Miami sleeper. It's easier to acquire new single-level equipment and get creative with it than to get the tracks from Chicago-Miami up and running!


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## Guest_timetableflagman_* (Jul 24, 2008)

Thanks, AlanB!  It's for those kinds of restrictions on high-level cars as well as their lack of interchangeability with low-levels that I prefer the low-level cars exclusively. There are some low-levels made that are high-capacity (such as by Kawasaki Railcar?) for maximum revenue. I think AMTRAK should look into those kinds of cars for their future purchases.


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## Guest_timetableflagman_* (Jul 25, 2008)

Another source for high-capacity low-level cars could be Colorado Railcar. Their low-level dome cars are really interesting. Otherwise, if AMTRAK really can't afford anything else for the time being, maybe they should increase their transition car roster as much as possible to effect the ability to run interchangeable consists where needed.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 25, 2008)

Colorado Rail Car would be a horrible choice. If Amtrak chooses them to build its next generation of cars, I am going to mail Kummant a dunce hat.


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## VentureForth (Jul 28, 2008)

I must say, though, that CRC could deliver them about at the rate at which Amtrak could pay for them...


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 28, 2008)

The could deliver them at a rate slower than Amtrak could pay for them, which is an amazing concept to consider.


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## Crescent Mark (Jul 29, 2008)

Any idea what the old Capitol Limited single level equipment turned into when it was changed to the Superliners? I think that was back when the Crescent was carrying 3 sleepers (1 crew sleeper), 5-6 coaches, etc. Maybe I'm thinking too basic here, but shouldn't they have at least a good number of single level cars to make a Chicago -> Miami route?

Do the Silver Meteor and Silver Star have the same consist as the Crescent?

Has Amtrak sold some of its older single level cars?


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 29, 2008)

Amtrak has retired most of its heritage cars, except for the remaining dining cars. The Capitol Ltd operated with heritage equipment prior to Superliners being used. For a few years, the Capitol Ltd was combined with the Broadway Ltd between Pittsbugh and Chicago. When The Floridian between Chicago and Florida was still running in 1979 and the Superliner Is were being delivered, the plan was to make the Floridian a Superliner train. There were no clearance problems between Chicago and Florida. Unfortunately, the Floridian was discontinued before the change was made.


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## George Harris (Jul 29, 2008)

wayman said:


> Whoops--my proposal was also made on the mistaken belief that the Silver trains stopped in Charlotte


There was a time when you could go Charlotte to Jacksonville, but that ended somewhere in the early 1950's. It was a Southern Railway train, a section that joined the Skyline Limited out of Asheville at Columbia SC. All long gone, as is the Southern line south of Columbia. However, it would be possible today to run a short train to Columbia and hook it up with the Silver Star. Without reopening Saluda, the Asheville part can't come back, though.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 31, 2008)

George Harris said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > Whoops--my proposal was also made on the mistaken belief that the Silver trains stopped in Charlotte
> ...



And then, as if that was not enough, the Skyland Special out of Asheville actually joined the Kansas City Florida Special from Kansas City,Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta, Macon, into Jacksonville at Jesup, Ga.

What is more---The KC-FLA Special also ran a sleeper which had been put on in Atlanta the night before to Brunswick, Ga., which was transferred at Jesup.

So, Jesup, Ga., had quite a bit of action about 5 a.m. in the morning southbound and about 10 p.m.northbound.

Amazing where one used to be able to go.

One more thing. The Atlanta Brunswick sleeper referred to above had the dubious distinction of being the last heavyweight sleeper in regular scheduled commercial service in the U.S. Not sure what year it last ran. I do recall that David Morgan, long time illustrous editor of TRAINS did run a nice article based on a trip he made a few days before its last trip. Of course I am sure heavyweight sleepers continued to be availabe for substitions, holiday crowding and for special movements, etc. .


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## George Harris (Jul 31, 2008)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> And then, as if that was not enough, the Skyland Special out of Asheville actually joined the Kansas City Florida Special from Kansas City,Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta, Macon, into Jacksonville at Jesup, Ga.
> What is more---The KC-FLA Special also ran a sleeper which had been put on in Atlanta the night before to Brunswick, Ga., which was transferred at Jesup.
> 
> So, Jesup, Ga., had quite a bit of action about 5 a.m. in the morning southbound and about 10 p.m.northbound.
> ...


Bill:

The Kansas City - Florida Special was my hometown train. Well, it went through, anyway. Did not stop, but did kick out a mailbag and grab a mail pouch off the mail crane. I could see the southbound from my highschool if the leaves were off the trees. Normal train 1960-ish: one SLSF 14-4 sleeper, one of the rebuilt heavyweight made to look streamlined diner-lounge, two streamlined SLSF coaches, sometimes one Frisco, one Southern, and 4 to 10 heavyweight head end cars, and of course two of the Frisco racehorse named E8's. In winter and at peak periods, there would be one to three additional coaches, all Frisco heavyweights, rarely an extra sleeper. All day trip Memphis to Atlanta. Didn't know util much later about the Skyline Special.

Picture in the early 50's, this train pulled out of Jacksonville with at least 5 sleepers and that many or more coaches, with destinations of Atlanta (drop off sleeper), Kansas City, Asheville, and Charlotte NC, all in one train. Better be sure you are in the right car.


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## George Harris (Aug 6, 2008)

The Georgia Rail Passenger Program seems to be in suspended animation mode, if not comatose. The latest information is dated in 2006. Most is only a rehash of what had been done several years previously. The one item of interest that I see is a map on the fist page of one of the reports.

www.garail.com/Pages/pdf/grpp2006factsheet.pdf

The line shown on the map for Atlanta to Savannah service is not that of the CofG route used by the Nancy Hnaks II, but that of the ex-CSX - ex-SAL-MD&S route through Vidalia. The heavy green line for "future high speed" service to Jacksonville follows the NS ex-Southern route used by the KC-Florida Special. This actually makes sense as the line is fairly straight and has very little freight traffic.

But, it is still only Plans, Reports, Dreams. No money being spent on doing anything real.


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## RedQueen (Aug 7, 2008)

George Harris said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > So are there any plans to establish Atlanta to Florida service?Is there a campaign for it?
> ...


I have to wonder, since at the time Amtrak took over passenger rail service, if having both Delta and Eastern Airlines hubbed at Atlanta made having a Miami/Atlanta line redundant. This was before the expansion of Hartsfield into a megamall, and before 2-hour-prior arrival at the gate. Air travel from South Florida to Atlanta was 1 hour arrival before, a 2-2 1/2 hour flight, and then you were there. Train travel was 8-10 hours?

Florida spend money on passenger rail? The legislature couldn't even fund the RTA, the commuter train from West Palm Beach to Miami (aka Tri-Rail) and keeping it alive is eating the three counties' pocketbook. And it's even on the wrong set of tracks (CSX, not FEC!)

But you, sir, are SO right about the study. We could do one - anyone got a spare $30-50,000?


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## Crescent Mark (Oct 3, 2008)

Sorry for bumping such an old thread - I'm not sure if Atlanta -> Macon commuter talk can go in here or not since it's been discussed already, but I went out today and was looking at the tracks around town.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...mp;t=h&z=18

There's our old station on the far right. The track splits in 2 and there used to be a big platform there, but as we know, it's all gone now. However, look at the left hand side. There's a wye right there! I never knew it. I don't think the tracks go anywhere, though. They used to run out on the north side of town, but I think the tracks are all overgrown since NS seemed to have abandoned them in the past 5-10 years, but I do see NS using the wye to turn engines and a few cars every now and then. The NS yard is down the track about 1/5th of a mile to the right.

Anyway, they've been talking about the commuter line a lot recently (I've seen it in the Atlanta newspapers a few times in September, etc)...like starting it just from Atlanta to Griffin (where this is), then expanding Atlanta to Macon. The tracks are there - they just need to purchase some equipment and get on with it. Do you think Amtrak would run something like this, like it does the Piedmont (Charlotte -> Raleigh), or do you think that they'd run it like the TRI-RAIL kind of thing they have in Florida (and Nashville...?)?


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## George Harris (Oct 3, 2008)

Crescent Mark said:


> There's our old station on the far right. The track splits in 2 and there used to be a big platform there, but as we know, it's all gone now. However, look at the left hand side. There's a wye right there! I never knew it. I don't think the tracks go anywhere, though. They used to run out on the north side of town, but I think the tracks are all overgrown since NS seemed to have abandoned them in the past 5-10 years, but I do see NS using the wye to turn engines and a few cars every now and then. The NS yard is down the track about 1/5th of a mile to the right.


This line used to go some distance out and then split with one line to Columbus and the other to Chattanooga. I thnk both are now abandoned in part if not completely.



> Anyway, they've been talking about the commuter line a lot recently (I've seen it in the Atlanta newspapers a few times in September, etc)...like starting it just from Atlanta to Griffin (where this is), then expanding Atlanta to Macon. The tracks are there - they just need to purchase some equipment and get on with it. Do you think Amtrak would run something like this, like it does the Piedmont (Charlotte -> Raleigh), or do you think that they'd run it like the TRI-RAIL kind of thing they have in Florida (and Nashville...?)?


My guess would be a contract commuter operator. Amtrak does do this sort of stuff but so do several other companies.


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## MattW (Oct 5, 2008)

A commuter line would be good an dpotentially be the kick in the tail side needed for other Atlanta-area rail projects. If people see how good passenger rail truly is, then they might want to support it for other things.


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