# Jacksonville Terminal



## Amtrak Alan (May 30, 2009)

Does anyone have photos, etc of Jacksonville FL terminal in its peak? Also, what are the chances of the Amtrak station moving back down there?


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## jis (May 30, 2009)

Amtrak Alan said:


> Does anyone have photos, etc of Jacksonville FL terminal in its peak? Also, what are the chances of the Amtrak station moving back down there?


Answer to the second question is: almost zero. It involves a convoluted backup move to get to/from that station to the route that is followed by the Silver Service trains.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 30, 2009)

I would check out This Site its run by the Jacksonville Terminal Railroad Museum and has a photo gallery.


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## TampAGS (May 30, 2009)

jis said:


> Amtrak Alan said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone have photos, etc of Jacksonville FL terminal in its peak? Also, what are the chances of the Amtrak station moving back down there?
> ...


Actually, the *Jacksonville Transportation Authority*'s current plans are to do just that. They plan to restore the *Jacksonville Terminal* to its original purpose: a transportation hub. Services based at the facility will include the city's skyway and buses as well as *Greyhound *and *Amtrak*. Most of these will be based out of adjacent buildings, but the new *Amtrak *station will occupy much of the original Terminal building.

 

A picure of the planned project is here: http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Graphics/RTS/J...jrtc_image.aspx

A pdf presentation of the JTA's plans is here: http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Graphics/RTS/J...NTATION3508.pdf


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## jis (May 31, 2009)

TampAGS said:


> Actually, the *Jacksonville Transportation Authority*'s current plans are to do just that. They plan to restore the *Jacksonville Terminal* to its original purpose: a transportation hub. Services based at the facility will include the city's skyway and buses as well as *Greyhound *and *Amtrak*. Most of these will be based out of adjacent buildings, but the new *Amtrak *station will occupy much of the original Terminal building.
> 
> A picure of the planned project is here: http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Graphics/RTS/J...jrtc_image.aspx
> 
> A pdf presentation of the JTA's plans is here: http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Graphics/RTS/J...NTATION3508.pdf


I know. But they are dreaming. I just don't see either Amtrak or CSX agreeing to it, unless of course they can find the funds to connect the south end of the proposed station to the CSX main towards Orlando. The fact that they don't even mention that as a consideration suggests to me that at present they are just dreaming as far as Amtrak is concerned.

The other possibility is that they will build the station and only the Amtrak train that eventually runs down the FEC will use it, and the current station will continue to be used by the those that run down CSX towards Orlando. THe situation then would be analogous to the way things are in Richmond VA, where only trains going to Newport News use the downtown Main Street station and all trains use the Staples Mill station which is on the main RF&P Line.


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## battalion51 (May 31, 2009)

One would think since this is part of an overall strategy to move trains back to JUS that they would be looking at what it takes to make this happen. IIRC ACL trains used this station back in the day, and they managed to do it then...


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## Bill Haithcoat (May 31, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> I would check out This Site its run by the Jacksonville Terminal Railroad Museum and has a photo gallery.


I certainly recommend the site referred to here.

If you have any interest in the pre-Amtrak passenger equipment in Florida you should enjoy the info.

It especially treats the streamlined era. If you care about any ot these trains, you should check out this site: that would be the East Coast Champion, West Coast Champion,Silver Meteor, Henry M. Flagler (later Dixie Flagler, then Dixieland), South Wind, City of Miami, Silver Star, Florida Special,New Royal Palm and others.


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## jphjaxfl (May 31, 2009)

I traveled through Jacksonville in 1973 on Amtrak's Vacationer and had traveled through on the SCL in mid to late 60s. It was a time consuming back up move no matter whether the trains used the A line or the S line. The local planners here in Jacksonville who talk about moving Amtrak back to Union Terminal have not shown any plans for rerouting the rail lines to avoid a back up move which is probably because most planners are not familiar with the routing of the rail lines and likely have never ridden a train out of the Terminal. The former Union Terminal is now fairly active as the Prime Osborn Convention Center would not leave much room for Amtrak or the proposed Commuter trains that are "talked about" every now and then.


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## jis (May 31, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> One would think since this is part of an overall strategy to move trains back to JUS that they would be looking at what it takes to make this happen. IIRC ACL trains used this station back in the day, and they managed to do it then...


After having worked with several of the so called planners I am unfortunately not very impressed by their knowledge of the context within which they do the planning. So I do not trust that they have looked into the issue until they explicitly say they have. And in this case there is not even a mention of the issue anywhere.

Take out a track map around JAX of current in service and past out of service at present, tracks and convince yourself how they did it. It was always a backup move to/from the S and the A line going south, at least in the recent past (like past 40 or 50 years). What is worse now is that the backup will have to be across the neck of a very busy yard and then part way up the yard. An analogous situation in Richmond VA would be if one had to back up through half of Acca Yard to get to Richmond station, and then departing go through the yard again.

Of course anything can be done with enough money. For example an abandoned FEC right of way that connects St. Augustine on the FEC to Palatka on CSX could perhaps be re-commissioned if it is still around unencroached thus allowing trains running through JAX Union Station over FEC to St. Augustine and then swing back over to the CSX A line joining it at Palatka. I just don't see any evidence that they realize the situation enough to even start thinking about what needs to be done


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## Amtrak Alan (May 31, 2009)

Do you have a map that show what you mean by the backup move?

Thanks



jis said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > One would think since this is part of an overall strategy to move trains back to JUS that they would be looking at what it takes to make this happen. IIRC ACL trains used this station back in the day, and they managed to do it then...
> ...


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## jis (May 31, 2009)

Amtrak Alan said:


> Do you have a map that show what you mean by the backup move? Thanks


I do, but unfortunately only on paper. I will look around and see if I can find one on the internet.

To describe it briefly, basically the line from Jasup comes in from the north through the current JAX Amtrak station and then passes by the Union Station location and then changes company from CSX to FEC and crosses the river and goes onto St. Augustine and south.

Both the A line and the S line take off to the west at right angle from this north - south line about a third of the way towards the current Amtrak station from Union Station site. So any train going south after making a stop at Union Station would have to back up to a point north of the junction and then proceed onto the S or A lines. Similarly any train coming in from the south would have to pull north of the junction and then back down to Union Station to make the stop.

Hope that gives you some idea of the layout.


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## jis (Jun 1, 2009)

Here you go. See this Google Map. It should be quite self explanatory.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 2, 2009)

FWIW I know this about the old JAX terminal.

I know that in the early 50's an article in TRAINS said that domes had been considered for the Chicago to Miami route but had to be dropped because of clearances in JAX.

Yet by the end of the 50's domes were on the Chicago to Miami trains. And at one time a Richmond to Miami dome was put on the winter time Florida Special, an ACL train from New York to Miami.

All of these trains approached from the north on ACL and left south on FEC.

Obviously, something happened between the early 50's and the late 50's as to the stations ability to handle domes.

FWIW


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## Murjax (Jun 2, 2009)

jis said:


> Of course anything can be done with enough money. For example an abandoned FEC right of way that connects St. Augustine on the FEC to Palatka on CSX could perhaps be re-commissioned if it is still around unencroached thus allowing trains running through JAX Union Station over FEC to St. Augustine and then swing back over to the CSX A line joining it at Palatka. I just don't see any evidence that they realize the situation enough to even start thinking about what needs to be done


Most of that right of way still exists and a small portion of the branch is still in use. It extends about 4 miles from Moultrie Junction in downtown St. Augustine to a small industry out near I-95. The track ends there, but the right of way continues all the way to East Palatka (a little village on the east side of the St. Johns River) undisturbed. It's only been encroached in a few spots, but since everything along that right of way is farmland re-commissioning it wouldn't be much of a problem. You would have to build a bridge over the St. Johns River though and then dig your way through town to connect with the CSX A Line. A better idea would be to construct a new line between Daytona and DeLand. There is virtually nothing in the way between those two towns that would make it much of an expensive prospect, plus using the FEC between Jacksonville and Daytona would solve the problem of serving two popular destinations.

This plan would allow the use of the old Union Terminal by both Amtraks that currently stop at Jacksonville. The only drawback would be skipping Paltaka, although Palatka isn't that big and it's only a 30 minute drive from St. Augustine so I can't imagine that being much of a loss.


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## jis (Jun 3, 2009)

Murjax said:


> Most of that right of way still exists and a small portion of the branch is still in use. It extends about 4 miles from Moultrie Junction in downtown St. Augustine to a small industry out near I-95. The track ends there, but the right of way continues all the way to East Palatka (a little village on the east side of the St. Johns River) undisturbed. It's only been encroached in a few spots, but since everything along that right of way is farmland re-commissioning it wouldn't be much of a problem. You would have to build a bridge over the St. Johns River though and then dig your way through town to connect with the CSX A Line. A better idea would be to construct a new line between Daytona and DeLand. There is virtually nothing in the way between those two towns that would make it much of an expensive prospect, plus using the FEC between Jacksonville and Daytona would solve the problem of serving two popular destinations.


Sounds like an interesting idea. Have you had a chance to bring this up with any of the Florida rail advocacy groups, or perhaps even to the attention of teh Jacksonville planners?



> This plan would allow the use of the old Union Terminal by both Amtraks that currently stop at Jacksonville. The only drawback would be skipping Paltaka, although Palatka isn't that big and it's only a 30 minute drive from St. Augustine so I can't imagine that being much of a loss.


Considering that most likely the reason that there is a stop in Palatka is to serve St. Augustine, I see your point.


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## jphjaxfl (Jun 3, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> FWIW I know this about the old JAX terminal.
> I know that in the early 50's an article in TRAINS said that domes had been considered for the Chicago to Miami route but had to be dropped because of clearances in JAX.
> 
> Yet by the end of the 50's domes were on the Chicago to Miami trains. And at one time a Richmond to Miami dome was put on the winter time Florida Special, an ACL train from New York to Miami.
> ...


I don't think the Florida Special actually stopped at Jacksonville Union Terminal. I think it made an operating stop at Baldwin, FL which is about 18 miles west of downtown Jacksonville. Both ACL and SAL had lines running through Baldwin which by bypassed Jacksonville. The City of Miami and Southwind both carried domes and operated through JAX Union Terminal. Most of the times they were Northern Pacific Dome Sleepers with the Dome area known as the "lounge in the sky". IC actually painted the City of Miami domes in their colors for the winter months when they operated from Chicago to Miami. The Southwind Domes stayed in NP colors. If I remember correctly the CM/SW Domes usually operated towards the rear of the train so it might have had something to do with clearance at JAX Union Terminal.


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## Murjax (Jun 3, 2009)

jis said:


> Sounds like an interesting idea. Have you had a chance to bring this up with any of the Florida rail advocacy groups, or perhaps even to the attention of teh Jacksonville planners?


I haven't thought of bringing the idea to them. I probably should though since this might be the cheapest of all the ideas currently floating around.



> Considering that most likely the reason that there is a stop in Palatka is to serve St. Augustine, I see your point.


Actually, since St. Augustine is considered a suburb of Jacksonville, when most people visit St. Augustine they use Jacksonville station. People don't think of Palatka. That town is in such a remote location it's not even thought of as an option, even though it's less than half the drive time than from Jacksonville.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 3, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW I know this about the old JAX terminal.
> ...



Iphiaxfl,

you are right about the Florida Special skipping JAX Union terminal. At least in the spot checking I did.

I did know that other trains had done it during the years. I think the Silver Star did it during some timetable periods pre-Amtrak.And I think the heavyweight Southern Railroad train before the New Royal Palm skipped JAX also.

Of course none of that had anything to do with dome cars.

Guess that leaves it still a mystery how the South Wind and City of Miami were able to get by with them.


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## AmtrakWPK (Jun 3, 2009)

Unfortunately, there is also a rail museum at the station in Palatka, including a caboose on stationary display outside, as of the last time we were there. Kind of kick in the teeth for those folks to bypass it. And unless you could perhaps piggyback onto the U.S. 92 ROW, there has been a lot of development in that DAB-Deland corridor, at least south of Deland - U.S. 17-92 from Sanford through Deland is pretty well packed at this point, with a lot of development west/north of I-4 (I-4 runs E-W starting at Tampa, then runs N-S through the Orlando corridor, then turns East again a ways north of Sanford. In Orlando, we confuse tourists by telling them to get on I-4 West and go South. Or vice-versa.) Seems like it would be a shorter trackwork to do something at JAX. With the current station, Sunset typically either wyed and backed into the current Jax station, or backed out and wyed upon departing it.


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## Murjax (Jun 3, 2009)

AmtrakWPK said:


> Unfortunately, there is also a rail museum at the station in Palatka, including a caboose on stationary display outside, as of the last time we were there. Kind of kick in the teeth for those folks to bypass it. And unless you could perhaps piggyback onto the U.S. 92 ROW, there has been a lot of development in that DAB-Deland corridor, at least south of Deland - U.S. 17-92 from Sanford through Deland is pretty well packed at this point, with a lot of development west/north of I-4 (I-4 runs E-W starting at Tampa, then runs N-S through the Orlando corridor, then turns East again a ways north of Sanford. In Orlando, we confuse tourists by telling them to get on I-4 West and go South. Or vice-versa.) Seems like it would be a shorter trackwork to do something at JAX. With the current station, Sunset typically either wyed and backed into the current Jax station, or backed out and wyed upon departing it.


Downtown Jacksonville is a very dense area. The only way you would be able to construct a line allowing you to jump back on the CSX main line without reversing would require a tunnel. Now I don't know how the Deland-Daytona area is developing because I'm not down there much, but by looking at Google Earth, I see there's a huge plot of land north of US-92 (which is probably swamp) that would be a perfect spot to build a FEC-CSX connector. I agree, Palatka does have a nice museum, but Jacksonville actually has a lot more history and the old Union Terminal would be much more suitable for operations than today's little station.


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## TampAGS (Jun 4, 2009)

Murjax said:


> Now I don't know how the Deland-Daytona area is developing because I'm not down there much, but by looking at Google Earth, I see there's a huge plot of land north of US-92 (which is probably swamp) that would be a perfect spot to build a FEC-CSX connector. I agree, Palatka does have a nice museum, but Jacksonville actually has a lot more history and the old Union Terminal would be much more suitable for operations than today's little station.


A line cutting through from *DeLand *over to *Daytona *would be _sublime _in my book. It would certainly be a more appealing option than the *Thruway *connecting service currently offered from *DeLand Station* (which is actually nothing more than a taxi-cab).

 

That area of *Volusia County *south of *State Road 40* and north of *US-92* is largely undeveloped cyprus and scrub pine forests. A possible route would involve using the existing *four-mile spur* branching off the *CSX A-line* near the current Amtrak station (f.k.a.* DeLand Junction*), or building a new branch within a few miles north before hitting *Deleon Springs*. This track would continue northeast along the north side of *US-92* to *Daytona*. Punching through to the *FEC main* by continuing east across *I-95* could be cost-prohibitive and unpopular, so the line could instead turn north once reaching the interstate. A *station *could potentially be located near *I-95 and US-92* (*International Speedway Blvd*), along Daytona's western edge.

 

From there, the track would follow north alongside the interstate up until the junction of *I-95 and US-1*. At this point, where the *FEC main* line crosses from the opposite side of the interstate, the tracks could merge and the connection between *CSX *and *FEC *would be complete.

 

Of course, if the day ever comes where Amtrak runs trains along the entire *FEC main*, it may be deemed of importance that any potential *Daytona Station* be located along that line. If that is seen as a real possibility, an alternate route for the *CSX *connector could turn off the *A-line* somewhere between *Deleon Springs* and *Barberville *and follow an eastern route along the north side of *Highway 40*. Using this route, there may be potential in making a stop for *Ormond Beach* either near the junction of *40 and I-95* (where the line would again turn north towards following *I-95*), or northwest of town at the junction with the *FEC main line*(allowing stops for both main line trains and those on the *CSX connector*).

 

And for the record, other Florida communities that are home to railroad museums or prominent rail exhibits include *Parrish, Winter Garden, Ft. Myers, Green Cove Springs, Lake Wales, Dundee, Live Oak, and Zephyrhills*. None of these has had passenger train service in decades.


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## VentureForth (Jun 4, 2009)

I think that my preference would be to connect Palatka to East Palatka, rebuild the ROW between EP and StA and run all existing trains through Jax Terminal and St Augustine. Keep Daytona transfer at Deltona. It would still serve folks from the West to get to Daytona, as, with TampAGS, I don't think it's practical to build a new ROW between Deltona and Daytona. People aren't going to flock to a train to get to Daytona from Orlando, but if they ever do the FEC corridor, it'd be worth a bit of a bus ride to get to all points on the coast.


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## jis (Jun 6, 2009)

AmtrakWPK said:


> Seems like it would be a shorter trackwork to do something at JAX.


Interesting that you are worried about development around Daytona and you seem to think that there is even a spec of space to put a new ROW through the middle of Jacksonville. 

Unfortunately the geography conspires against it. Once you get across the St. john River you also have the additional problem of building a new bridge across that river to get back to the A Line. If you want to avoid doing so you have to stay on the same bank of the St. john River as the A Line, which means you will have to make a phenomenally sharp turn to the right immediately after departing Jacksonville Union Terminal, and then run smack dab into densely developed area to plow through to get back to the A-Line.



> With the current station, Sunset typically either wyed and backed into the current Jax station, or backed out and wyed upon departing it.


The Sunset Y-ing problem can theoretically be solved with a little bit of cooperation from CSX, if CSX deemd that important enough. The Sunset could run north from the S-Line branching off at Duval Connection, then run through CSX's Pritchard Yard, across NS at Duval and then join the A-Line north of Amtrak's JAX station at Dinsmore Connection, thus avoiding the need to Y.

BTW, just curious, in case you know the answer..... when the Sunset used to run did it do the backup all the way from Seminole Connection/Beaver St.? Or did it take the CSX line north from Carnegie to Grand Crossing and then just back up the short distance from Moncrief? Thanks.


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## battalion51 (Jun 8, 2009)

The Sunset would do the reverse move just south of the station at Grand Junction (IIRC). The inbound crew would always be the one who did the wyeing (unless they were running short on time).


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## jis (Jun 8, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> The Sunset would do the reverse move just south of the station at Grand Junction (IIRC). The inbound crew would always be the one who did the wyeing (unless they were running short on time).


Thanks Battalion.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Jun 9, 2009)

TampAGS said:


> Murjax said:
> 
> 
> > Now I don't know how the Deland-Daytona area is developing because I'm not down there much, but by looking at Google Earth, I see there's a huge plot of land north of US-92 (which is probably swamp) that would be a perfect spot to build a FEC-CSX connector. I agree, Palatka does have a nice museum, but Jacksonville actually has a lot more history and the old Union Terminal would be much more suitable for operations than today's little station.
> ...


 

 

Not gonna happen (at least in our lifetimes). Almost all of that land in middle Volusia County (between East Volusia and West Volusia) is protected "water aquifer recharge" land. It also contains the Tiger Bay State Forest which is a state wildlife/recreation area. Your closest chance of ever having any kind of connector line between the A-line and the FEC is down at WPB. It might be feasible to reconstruct the old FEC mainline through Hastings and Spuds over to East Palatka, but IIRC there are several locations where the old FEC right of way has been sold off and developed over up in the Hastings area. That right of way used to be the old FEC mainline until they built the cutoff and shortened it many years ago. So with those points in mind, this is most likely never going to happen. It would be far easier to establish the railroad operations to mirror the days of JUT (just by backing into the old station), but there would be some needed upgrades so as not to interfere with CSX's operations at Moncrief yard and Beaver Street. In any event, it will probably be a while if ever before service is provided at the old terminal.

 

 

OBS gone freight....


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## Amtrak Alan (Jun 14, 2009)

Amtrak OBS Gone Freight said:


> TampAGS said:
> 
> 
> > Murjax said:
> ...


 

Anyone have any old photos of the Jacksonville terminal?

thanks


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 20, 2009)

Watch us here in Jacksonville, there is MUCH more going on then the Jacksonville Terminal, "Jacksonville Transportation Center", project. Feel free to check out my blog: jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com You'll find a post index in the lower left of the blog.

Yes, Amtrak is going to return to Jacksonville Terminal. The largest roadblock is a convention Center at the old Station which is too small for Conventions but big enough to throw a monkey wrench in the plan.

First look for Jacksonville to announce a new Convention Center at the current Duval County Courthouse site, next to the Hyatt downtown.






Amtrak will indeed come home to JTC, it's not just a roumor or dream, it's a FACT. Likewise Jacksonville will join Miami-Orlando-Tampa as the Northern link of any "Higher" Speed Rail (HSR) Florida corridor. Also watch for Jacksonville to get named as the Atlantic anchor to the Gulf Coast Corridor and thus become the only American City to link with 3 HSR corridors, IE: Southeast, Gulf Coast, Florida.

Even if HSR never gets beyond talk, it will throw a ton of money at Amtrak and Jacksonville will be the hub of the deep South and Florida. The official conversation is way past "will they move downtown", and has become one of which track goes where, platform size, etc...






The service on the FLORIDA EAST COAST is also a given, there have been quiet meetings between the top brass, the City, State, Railroad, and Amtrak on this subject. It's no longer a matter of "IF" but rather a matter of "WHEN".

The Jacksonville terminal in it's original version had 32 tracks. Some 29 tracks were passenger tracks with platforms. Of these 1-15 were stub or "head" tracks, which ended at the bumper posts. (Some of these massive decorative concrete posts still stand within the Convention Center Concourse). The other 14 tracks passed to the South of the station and those will likely be rebuilt.






I represent a group that is pushing for 9 tracks, all double ended. The USDOT did a study in 1982? of Transportation Centers and gave Jax the need for 12 tracks.

Watch for a fight to re-re-construct the LEE/PARK street viaduct as the rebuild of the 1980's was designed to view the station or downtown from Water Street. Since the Skyway has cut that view to pieces, and the bridge only has a ground clearence of 16 feet, watch for it rise to 23.6 feet (standard railroad clearence) for at least 8 tracks.

Also watch the plan change from a Transportation Center that looks more like a transportation neighborhood, to a true center located almost 100% on former Jacksonville Terminal ground.

You will see Amtrak wake the heck up and start splitting the trains in Jacksonville (as God intended). Trains such as a new Vacationer will roll in from NYC and exit southbound for both Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa, as well as Daytona Beach-Melbourne-Ft. Pierce-West Palm-Miami.

Trains to or from the FEC will NOT need to back in, and the FEC is poised to grab a lions share of the business. They even have dialog with the City for LRT right of way to the southeast side of town.

Amtrak recently came to Jacksonville and in a meeting of "high level" transportation officials unveiled a "5-Train-Plan-FLORIDA". This is very cool and has obtained a lot of press attention. Carried to it's fullest with Georgia's Government fully involved we may soon see:

Atlantia-Jessup-Jacksonville (JAX) x 2 daily.

Atlanta-Macon-Valdosta-JAX x 3 daily

Jax-Tallahassee-Pensacola-(maybe Mobile-Biloxi-New Orleans) x 5 daily

Jax-Ocala-Lakeland-Tampa/Ft. Myers/Sarasota x 5 daily.

Jax-Palatka-Orlando-Tampa x 3 daily

Jax-Palatka-Orlando-Winter Haven-West Palm-Miami x 2 daily.

Jax-Daytona Beach-Melbourne-West Palm-Miami x 5 daily.

PLUS:

Jax-Charleston-Fayetteville-DC-NYC

Jax-Columbia-Raleigh-DC-NYC

Jax-Charlotte-Charlottesville-DC-NYC






Amtrak considers that they will break even or even profit from this 5 train plan. Following the lead of San Diegans, Cascades, and Surfliners, Jacksonville is poised to take the Southeastern hub by default. But it won't get that far by default, the City and Jacksonville Transporation Authority are alive and deep in the combat zone to make this happen.

Please don't run out in the street yelling that Amtrak is going to return and swell Jacksonville Terminal to pre-Amtrak prominence overnight. It may take a couple of years to get all the ducks in a row, but hang on to your hats Passenger Train people, WE ARE MOVING FORWARD on many rail fronts in Jacksonville.

City owned neutral port terminal railroad.

City owned and reconstructed "S" line from the Jax Terminal to north of Springfield Yard.

Rebuilt Convention Center back to Rail, bus, streetcar, monorail use.

Completion of the Skyway Monorail.

Building and Completion of a major Monorail expansion.

Expansion of Amtrak into Corridor Services

Commuter Rail ASAP.

Strfeetcars in the core and historic districts.

Water Taxi and Riverwalk extensions, connections.

Rebuilding of South Jacksonville Station and Yukon/NAS station.

Hope this helps.

*OCKLAWAHA*


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 20, 2009)

I don't mean to be rude, and such, but what are you smoking?


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 20, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I don't mean to be rude, and such, but what are you smoking?








Current plan (on ice)

Not smoking my friend, (though when I do it's King Edward or Swisher Sweets - Made in Jacksonville) and I'll even confess to being an old hippie.

Here's the inside: I run the jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com blog online. I am a retired railroad consultant to the FCN de COLOMBIA, Pacifico Railway.

I now consult PRO-BONO for JTA. I'm on the JTA committees for Commuter Rail, Streetcar and will likely chair or co-chair the new AMTRAK government/private planning agency. Meeting with the Mr. Blaylock of the JTA, Mr. Clem, Mr. Miller, Mr. Boyle, Mr. Arrington and a good deal of the Amtrak brass hats gives me a long range preview that most don't have.






The Mann/Davis plan, catching fire!

What we need is more of a cheering section, so far the NARP, United Rail, NRSH, R&LHS, NMRA, Sierra Club, NOW, JEDC, Jacksonville MPO, DVI have been over the top with support. We will probably take down the convention exhibit floor space and reconstruct the depot, and see the trains start to return within 5 years.

OCKLAWAHA


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## cpamtfan (Jun 20, 2009)

Why do they need two platforms? There isn't really a need for two platforms for the number of trains they have (even with the Sunset and Palm).

cpamtfan-Peter


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 20, 2009)

cpamtfan said:


> Why do they need two platforms? There isn't really a need for two platforms for the number of trains they have (even with the Sunset and Palm).
> cpamtfan-Peter


Peter, true with what we now have even IF the Sunset comes back (it won't, at least as the Sunset we all remember), how long will it take Amtrak to realize that folding the "Sunset=GULF WIND" cars into a NYC/Orlando-Tampa/Daytona Beach-Miami train will not only save them money, it will offer more destinations to the Gulf Winds schedule. Also some talk about another extension of the Palmetto back to JAX.

If a terminal has one track occupied by an off duty train set, you'll still need 2 tracks to split a train. So with a very little increase in trains, we will need at least 3 tracks and 2 platforms.

The reality is that Jacksonville is pushing commuter rail, Light Rail, Streetcars and BRT - Bus Rapid Transit, and may even restart the Monorail expansions to the Stadium, San Marco and Riverside.

In the 1980's the Federal Study on needed Transportation Centers, suggested that Jacksonville needs a 12 track terminal. We have design's for both a two platform 3 track interm station as well as a full 9-12 track Terminal with full servicing facilities. In fact one of our former coach yards is still intact and still full of dwarf signals.

Hope this helps

OCKLAWAHA


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## bretton88 (Jun 20, 2009)

Ocklawaha said:


> The Mann/Davis plan, catching fire!
> 
> What we need is more of a cheering section, so far the NARP, United Rail, NRSH, R&LHS, NMRA, Sierra Club, NOW, JEDC, Jacksonville MPO, DVI have been over the top with support. We will probably take down the convention exhibit floor space and reconstruct the depot, and see the trains start to return within 5 years.
> 
> *OCKLAWAHA*


This plan, does it demolish any of the existing terminal building? I see parkland in the plan where there is a building now. I would hate to see that happen to a historic building. :unsure:


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 20, 2009)

bretton88 said:


> This plan, does it demolish any of the existing terminal building? I see parkland in the plan where there is a building now. I would hate to see that happen to a historic building. :unsure:








It will restore the pedestrian subway and roughly the old track pattern 18 through 26, The difference being the FEC Freight leads will be on the far south edge along McCoys Creek. McCoys creek is being "restored" into a lenial City Park - Greenway, from way out in the old Seaboard Lackawanna Shop Complex all the way to the St. Johns River. There is even talk about relocating the Times-Union newspaper building which sits atop a boxed in creek, allowing for daylighting the entire creek and greenway.






Anyone have a chair or two?
















As you can see from the renderings, NOT AN INCH of any of the original railroad buildings will be touched. The portion you are asking about is the surviving section of the original 1890's station. Since it is just a wall and a couple of towers, we are looking at the middle of it as some sort of courtyard, with a fountain, perhaps busts of the great railroaders of Jacksonville, H. Plant, H. Flagler, Smith, Yulee etc... Something like a super cool museum-mall-fountain-retail-food court all in one.

*OCKLAWAHA*


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## Ryan (Jun 20, 2009)

Many thanks to MrFSS for imposing a sane and readable font on the above.

Ocklawaha, do you have any comment on the above discussed problems with connecting your nice new transportation center with the railroads that you would hope to use it? It sounds like getting trains into and out of your station is going to be a major inconvenience.


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 20, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Many thanks to MrFSS for imposing a sane and readable font on the above.
> Ocklawaha, do you have any comment on the above discussed problems with connecting your nice new transportation center with the railroads that you would hope to use it? It sounds like getting trains into and out of your station is going to be a major inconvenience.


FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS is my color and font choices: Do the math, grew up along the ATLANTIC COAST LINE and I'm about half blind, plus I just dig the colors man! LOL! It's my trademark in ALL forums.

I can comment on the access, In my opinion it is a NON-FACTOR. Train schedules were quite a few hours faster in 1945-55 and they faced the same back in movement, not only in Jacksonville but in Savannah, Chattanooga, New Orleans, Raleigh, Tampa, in fact they still back in to Tampa and New Orleans.

People need to consider Jacksonville as largest city in land area in the lower 48 states, largest in population (By FAR) of any Florida City, 3Rd largest City on the East Coast of the USA. So we are not a way station for the through trains. Rebuilt properly, trains for New Orleans, Orlando, Savannah, and Valdosta would back in. Trains from the Florida East Coast would run through the station.

The entire backin movement is within a few hundred feet of the photo of the Champion Arriving (backing in). Maybe a mile maximum.

The beauty of the Jacksonville back-in is that every route wyes just west of the expressway. So the Gulf Wind (your Sunset) will have the ability to run straight in, and be broken up for different routes south. The FEC cars will go straight out, the "A" and "S" lines will run the wye and be put in a New York-Miami/Tampa train. The process off of the "S" or "A" or FEC will be just a reverse.

We expect to capture some of those terminating and originating trains, certainly if the "AMTRAK FLORIDA 5 TRAIN PLAN" springs to life, we'll be the heartbeat of Florida. This is not local boosterism, every carload, passenger or freight in the ENTIRE STATE OF FLORIDA, either rolls past the empty terminal today or within a mile of it through the wyes.

Part of the plan includes rebuilding the SE leg of the old ACL or CSX "A" line. We want a full terminal with able to cater the trains, fuel, water, switch, do rolling repairs etc...

As part of our commuter rail and port plans; See a blueprint for Jacksonville in: http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/20...nted.html#links

Add to this mix the new "S" line to the northside of the City, plus commuter rail, and we'll have one lively station again.

OCKLAWAHA


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## MrFSS (Jun 20, 2009)

Ocklawaha said:


> FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS is my color and font choices: Do the math, grew up along the ATLANTIC COAST LINE and I'm about half blind, plus I just dig the colors man! LOL! It's my trademark in ALL forums.


Please stop using the large font and colors. It is bothering other forum members.

Thank You.


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## Ryan (Jun 20, 2009)

Again, many thanks to the mods.



Ocklawaha said:


> every carload, passenger or freight in the ENTIRE STATE OF FLORIDA, either rolls past the empty terminal today or within a mile of it through the wyes.


I'm sure that CSX may have an issue with you fouling their yard with all of the passenger trains doing this backup move all day long - they'll never get any freight moved!



jis said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > One would think since this is part of an overall strategy to move trains back to JUS that they would be looking at what it takes to make this happen. IIRC ACL trains used this station back in the day, and they managed to do it then...
> ...


Again sir, your knowledge is impeccable.


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 21, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Again, many thanks to the mods.
> Again sir, your knowledge is impeccable.


No color? No humor? My railroad is better then your railroad?

A question was asked and attempts were being made to answer it. As I'm right in the middle of all of these plans, I thought you might enjoy a look into what is coming down the track. Obviously someone feels threatened, but I wouldn't rush out and buy stock in the Jacksonville, St. Augustine and Halifax River Railroad and that East Palatka Extension. Between Commuter Rail and Amtrak plans, the old station could be back up to 30+ trains daily in a few years, those passengers will be distributed around downtown by our Monorail, JTA buses, and a new streetcar system. The CSX wye's in the terminal throat won't matter a bit as they are to be reconfigured. All that traffic in and out of that busy West Jax Yard will just have to wait on Amtrak... Ditto for the Moncrief Yard and even Export Yard. Simpson Yard, Springfield, Bush, Baldwin, and Bowden are safely back from the core, but FEC and NS are into run-thru's. I'm available through my blog or on metrojacksonville.com .

Forgive me for soiling the welcome mat, that really wasn't my intent. Next time your with the Florida Secretary of Transportation let me know and I'll buy the next round (She is from Jacksonville you know).

OCKLAWAHA


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## jphjaxfl (Jun 21, 2009)

Interesting, I live in Jacksonville and I have seen the plans that are mentioned, but that is all they are is plans. There has been no mention how the plans will be funded. Florida had a high speed rail plan that was approved by voters, but the same voters reversed the plan when they found what the cost would be. The stimilus funds will go to the states that have serious plans that are shovel ready like the California HSR plan. I think Florida will be quite a ways down the list. I don't expect to see these plans becoming reality in the next fiver years.


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## VentureForth (Jun 21, 2009)

OCKLAWAHA,

You remind me of a fella I met in Commerce, TX on a revival of the old Cotton Belt - a man by the name of Dan Monagham. This is very interesting news, and I will hope and hope that it will come to pass in my lifetime (I'm 37). I look forward to the day that my wife won't cringe when I say I'd rather take the train. Maybe some day she'll join me...

Thanks for the information. I'll have to drive down to Jax and visit the old passenger depot at the Convention Center.

Are trains going to have to back in to continue to Daytona/Orlando? How are the Silvers going to get through that station? They can't bypass Palatka... They'd never stand for it with the money they put into their little depot. I'll reread your info - you probably mentioned it. Lots of information to digest...


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## Amtrak Alan (Jun 21, 2009)

What is meant by "AMTRAK FLORIDA 5 TRAIN PLAN"?

Thanks



VentureForth said:


> OCKLAWAHA,
> You remind me of a fella I met in Commerce, TX on a revival of the old Cotton Belt - a man by the name of Dan Monagham. This is very interesting news, and I will hope and hope that it will come to pass in my lifetime (I'm 37). I look forward to the day that my wife won't cringe when I say I'd rather take the train. Maybe some day she'll join me...
> 
> Thanks for the information. I'll have to drive down to Jax and visit the old passenger depot at the Convention Center.
> ...


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## VentureForth (Jun 22, 2009)

Amtrak Alan said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > OCKLAWAHA,
> ...


I think that stands for the five trains that will ultimately pass through Jacksonville Union Station - The Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Palmetto, Sunset Limited and Something Else.

OR

It's five modes of transit based out of JAX - Streetcar, Long Distance Train, Commuter Train, Skyway, and Bus.


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## VentureForth (Jun 22, 2009)

Ocklawaha said:


>


Here's a Bing Map Bird's Eye View of roughly that same shot.


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## jphjaxfl (Jun 22, 2009)

Right now the people in Jacksonville don't even give decent support to the Jacksonville Transit Authority Bus Transportation. In early May, there were some route consolidations due to low ridership. A person who is in his 90s and has lived in Jacksonville all his life told me people in Jacksonville are too tied to their automobiles and it would take gas to be $10 per gallon to make that change. Without a good public transportation system feeding into Amtrak or HSR rail, the type of systems mentioned will not be successful.


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 22, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> Right now the people in Jacksonville don't even give decent support to the Jacksonville Transit Authority Bus Transportation. In early May, there were some route consolidations due to low ridership. A person who is in his 90s and has lived in Jacksonville all his life told me people in Jacksonville are too tied to their automobiles and it would take gas to be $10 per gallon to make that change. Without a good public transportation system feeding into Amtrak or HSR rail, the type of systems mentioned will not be successful.


Another attempt?

The "so called" 5-Train plan is a plan that Amtrak rolled out in the JTA commuter rail meeting around November 08, that calls for 5 intra-state trains each way daily between each of the major Florida City pairs. For Jacksonville this equals 20-30 or 40 new trains daily, depending on routes how many routes they use. They gave us a fairly deep look into the finances and how they believe they will break even or make money on these routes.

The HSR plan was voted down after being voted into the constitution, due to legal clowning by the Jeb Bush administration. If that same plan had stood for "High Speed ROAD", we'd probably already have it half built. This was pure big oil -vs- public transporation politics at it's best. Boy Bush, not unlike Jacksonville's mayor Peyton, never saw a road he didn't like. Both of them still believe that freeways are "FREE".

Lastly the ridership on JTA has skyrocketed since the gas increases of last summer/fall, soaring past all other Florida transit systems but Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami, ours being 98% bus and theirs being multi-modal.

Yes, plans are just plans, but in the current world, Cities can't expand downtown development without XX amount of transit, XX amount of Carbon Credits, green space, access, parking, etc... With the new Berkman Tower going up, and the new courthouse complex, the stage is set for a new Convention Center on the former Court House (riverfront) site. All of this without mention of some 3-4 more towers that are planned. Frankly the City MUST move and the Skyway, Streetcar and Commuter Rail are about the only options after they finally figured out the proposed BRT system would cost us more then $1 Billion Dollars for 26 miles of new roads and a handful of buses.

OCKLAWAHA


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## jis (Jun 23, 2009)

Ocklawaha said:


> A question was asked and attempts were being made to answer it. As I'm right in the middle of all of these plans, I thought you might enjoy a look into what is coming down the track. Obviously someone feels threatened, but I wouldn't rush out and buy stock in the Jacksonville, St. Augustine and Halifax River Railroad and that East Palatka Extension. Between Commuter Rail and Amtrak plans, the old station could be back up to 30+ trains daily in a few years, those passengers will be distributed around downtown by our Monorail, JTA buses, and a new streetcar system. The CSX wye's in the terminal throat won't matter a bit as they are to be reconfigured. All that traffic in and out of that busy West Jax Yard will just have to wait on Amtrak... Ditto for the Moncrief Yard and even Export Yard. Simpson Yard, Springfield, Bush, Baldwin, and Bowden are safely back from the core, but FEC and NS are into run-thru's. I'm available through my blog or on metrojacksonville.com .


That is indeed the information I was looking for. If they do have a plan to address the issue and they have the money to actually enact the plan, more power to them. My skepticism arises from having lived through many a grand plan which is built on fantasy with no funding. I sincerely hope that it is different in this case. Planners and even Secretaries of State have made claims in the past that have not borne out. I hope again that this case is going to be different.


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## VentureForth (Jun 23, 2009)

Looks like Florida is getting some sort of funding from State Parks. Fees recently went up from $3 per car to $5, and they are about to go up again to $6. And if you're a season pass holder, they will charge $2 per person in your car.

Why can't states budget away for a rainy year???


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 23, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> Looks like Florida is getting some sort of funding from State Parks. Fees recently went up from $3 per car to $5, and they are about to go up again to $6. And if you're a season pass holder, they will charge $2 per person in your car.
> Why can't states budget away for a rainy year???


Because we live in a democracy.


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## George Harris (Jun 23, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> Interesting, I live in Jacksonville and I have seen the plans that are mentioned, but that is all they are is plans. There has been no mention how the plans will be funded. Florida had a high speed rail plan that was approved by voters, but the same voters reversed the plan when they found what the cost would be. The stimilus funds will go to the states that have serious plans that are shovel ready like the California HSR plan. I think Florida will be quite a ways down the list. I don't expect to see these plans becoming reality in the next fiver years.


The FOX plan got hijacked by Disney and Lakeland politicians to the point that it really did little good for anybody else. I would love to see a true high speed train system in Florida, and the terrain is made to order for one, but the death of that last "plan" was killing of a fairly useless monster.


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## Neil_M (Jun 23, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like Florida is getting some sort of funding from State Parks. Fees recently went up from $3 per car to $5, and they are about to go up again to $6. And if you're a season pass holder, they will charge $2 per person in your car.
> ...


That's the most ludicrous thing you have ever said on here!


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 23, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


Not at all. In our democracy, we elect people. We elect people for delivering what we want. So what they do is deliver things we want (spending) while trying to avoid doing what we don't want (actually paying for it).


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## VentureForth (Jun 24, 2009)

We don't live in a democracy, though. We live in representative republic where our leaders are chosen democratically. The point is, there should be laws that allow for average budgeting over a period of 10 years (which is the average recession/expansion cycle). Though, yes, a democratic electorate (Not "Democrat") could then change the law, it should be harder to change the law than it is to elect boneheads that change the law.

At least that way, the park access fees don't jump 100% over two years, but perhaps an even 3% per year or something to keep up with inflation.


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 24, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> We don't live in a democracy, though. We live in representative republic where our leaders are chosen democratically. The point is, there should be laws that allow for average budgeting over a period of 10 years (which is the average recession/expansion cycle). Though, yes, a democratic electorate (Not "Democrat") could then change the law, it should be harder to change the law than it is to elect boneheads that change the law.
> At least that way, the park access fees don't jump 100% over two years, but perhaps an even 3% per year or something to keep up with inflation.


Money? Well yes there is a dedicated source that is now in debate for Jacksonville. Several years back the city voted a sales tax to make some massive improvements, Parks, Roads, JTC, Courthouse, Arena and mass transit. There is $100 Million still sitting in the bank earmarked for "Transit Right Of Way," but the Council could change that to read "streetcar" etc. on a whim. What I think will happen is this:

Streetcar: Funded 100% local, in house, heritage style cars

Jacksonville Terminal: Funded within normal guidelines + stimulus money.

FEC Passenger Trains: Amtrak, Stimulus and $80 Million the state has already agreed to, maybe sooner then later too.

Bus Rapid Transit: Funded within normal FTA guidelines and subject to being cut back to more of a quality bus, express bus, HOV concept.

Skyway Monorail: This could go 100% stimulus if the Transit Authority would just speak to the City and get after it. I'd expect it to roughly double in route miles. Stadium, Riverside - Brooklyn, San Marco are almost sure bets for expansion.

I also expect that taking a page from the many stops within the 60 mile Orlando - Kissimmee Amtrak line, you'll see Jacksonville set up a cry for rebuilding the Yukon/NAS/Orange Park station, as well as FEC's South Jacksonville Station (somewhere in San Marco) probably on Atlantic Bl.

OCKLAWAHA


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## AmtrakWPK (Jun 24, 2009)

> the many stops within the 60 mile Orlando - Kissimmee Amtrak line


???? It's WAY less than 60 miles between Orlando and Kissimmee, and there are NO intermediate stops between the two. If you are referring to what is now probably the dead SunRail commuter train corridor they had proposed, that would have run from Amtrak Deland to Poinciana (a bit South/West of Kissimmee Amtrak, and would have included the Deland, Winter Park, Orlando, and Kissimmee Amtrak stations. So far as I am aware, it would NOT have added ANY Amtrak stations. I live a few minutes North of the WPK station. Also, of course, that line does NOT belong to Amtrak - it is part of the CSX "A" Line, which the State would have bought (that portion of it, anyway), as part of the SunRail deal.


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## VentureForth (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm sure it's the commuter rail that OCKLAWAHA was referring to...

I hung out at Jacksonville on Friday and did some hanging around. I'll try to post a couple of pictures later. Is it CSX or FEC that has the double-track drawbridge over the St Johns?

I heard it was CSX (note the huge CSX headquarters right next door), but how far South do they go? The bridge sees pretty good action - about one train every two hours or so. I tried my hand at cloudy weather photography and didn't fare well. All I got were mis-exposured, poorly framed shots of a waterspout from the drawbridge. I'll try to post some links later.


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## Neil_M (Jun 28, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Not at all. In our democracy, we elect people. We elect people for delivering what we want. So what they do is deliver things we want (spending) while trying to avoid doing what we don't want (actually paying for it).


That's what they want you to think, you vote them in and then people with more money and influence than you tell them what to do.


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## Ocklawaha (Jun 28, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> I'm sure it's the commuter rail that OCKLAWAHA was referring to...
> I hung out at Jacksonville on Friday and did some hanging around. I'll try to post a couple of pictures later. Is it CSX or FEC that has the double-track drawbridge over the St Johns?
> 
> I heard it was CSX (note the huge CSX headquarters right next door), but how far South do they go? The bridge sees pretty good action - about one train every two hours or so. I tried my hand at cloudy weather photography and didn't fare well. All I got were mis-exposured, poorly framed shots of a waterspout from the drawbridge. I'll try to post some links later.









It is of course the line I was refering to. Sorry to disturb the perfection in my failure to put Deland in the mix, as was my intention. Of course I could have indluded the Deland branchline, the old depot that served as a bus station for years...Sanford, Rand yard, the Ice House, the old Shops, Paola Junction, the Sanford and Everglades Railroad, the Lake Charm branch or the old trackage out to "Truck Center", then the FEC bridge at Osceola, and the great old right of way out in Pennichaw, my favorite bridge from the Lee Cypress Days... etc... etc... But hey, who am I? I don't know.

The FEC owns and operates the St. Johns River Draw Bridge, the original single track bridge built right after Flagler took over and merged the various lines, (ie: Jacksonville-St. Augustine-East Palatka, East Palatka-Ormond-Daytona, Tocoi-St. Augustine, and a bit later, South Jacksonville-Hogan-Pablo Beach-Mayport) The current bridge was built as "The Great Florida Boom" ramped up and the FEC double tracked the entire railroad from Jacksonville to Miami. Perfectionists will want to note the "double track route" was not completely true, as the tracks split off south of the New Smyrna Beach Yard and the westerly one ran from Edgewater/Oak Hill to Maytown junction, hence back South to Titusville. Meanwhile the other track continued Southward on a more direct alignment from New Smyrna Beach to Titusville - close to US 1. Maytown was the junction point for the Kissimmee River Valley Line, The Benson Junction Line, Titusville/Mims and New Smyrna Beach. New Smyrna Beach also has a couple of signs of the old Satsuma, Lake Helen, Orange City, Orange City Junction line. Some good rail photo sites if you like old stuff.

For your next trip, the FEC starts in the many wyes just west of I-95. CSX, NS, as well as occasional western motive power is often seen in these areas. All three local roads send endless transfer jobs over the river. The Riverwalk on the Northbank of downtown Jacksonville is an excellent location to shoot these from an overhead walkway. Parking under I-95 (The Fuller Warren Bridge over the St. Johns River) by working ones way over to Riverside Avenue, under the bridge you'll see the parking (on weekends it's a huge art market so don't go for a train shoot on those days). It's just a short hike down river (North) to the FEC bridge. While your in the neighborhood, turn from Riverside Ave, turn West on Forest (just a couple of blocks north of the art market under bridge parking) Just before the freeway, you'll encounter MYRTLE AVE. This is an old and blighted neighborhood but mostly its all vacant as it's been bought out by developers. Go north on Myrtle to the "MYRTLE AVENUE SUBWAY", two narrow - LOW - tunnels pass under the old Terminal Throat, the center lane, which is taller and has a large concrete filler, was the JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANYS, Riverside, Murray Hill and Lackwanna Shops lines. There is a hobo jungle right above and East of the South portal, they are FRIENDLYS and are there under agreement with the Sheriff's office and the Railroad. They WILL challenge you if you get on the Right of Way. Be kind, explain yourself and keep your eyes open, lock up and don't invite trouble and you should have no problem. I usually bring them dog food (they have a very friendly pet), cigarettes or basic needs. They can turn out to be your very BEST guides.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2...e-avenue-subway

MORE? Oh yeah, just ask...

*OCKLAWAHA*


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## VentureForth (Jun 29, 2009)

That's pretty much where I was. I took a bunch of photos from that walkway that crosses over the FEC in front of the CSX HQ. I also made it to the Myrtle Avenue Subway and was able to get a couple of shots of the two or three tracks that currently go by the convention center. There's actually a really good place to stop and park with no fences off of Dennis St on the SE quadrant of that location. Just no trains to take pictures of and a lot of trees obscuring the approach to the Jacksonville Terminal.

Rode the skyway and understand why it's claimed to go from nowhere to nowhere and carrys almost no one. Nice touristy ride, but didn't really want to get off anywhere. Wish there was a stop a bit closer to Jacksonville Landing. The turnstiles didn't work right and I was afraid of getting a ticket after paying my 50 cents, turnstile failing, and then proceeding through the disabled access.

I would love to see Amtrak one day ply the way along the old drawbridge.

I do want to go back - hopefully get some pictures of TRAINS on the bridge next time!


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## VentureForth (Jul 2, 2009)

OCKLAWAHA,

Do you know Bruce Richardson?


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## VentureForth (Jul 2, 2009)

A picture of the FEC bridge (without the drawbridge portion) here:

http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29091


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## Alex M. (Sep 24, 2015)

To update this thread to the present, in light of FEC's All Aboard Florida project, I wonder how likely it would be for them to build a northern terminus for their operations at the terminal vicinity? I'm sure that the city of Jacksonville may want to work with them on this, provided they are successful in the Miami to Orlando front.


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