# Amtrak America - new LD train branding



## Ryan (Oct 24, 2013)

Blackwolf correctly suggested that this aspeect of the discussion be broken out since it applies to all LD service and not just Viewliner 2.



Blackwolf said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't include the striping, Phase III is BACK!
> ...


That also suggests that the LD Amfleets are going in for a paint job. I think that it's a great move and another embodiment of Amtrak's reorganization into product lines. Hopefully this will give the LD trains a good bit of visibility here in the east, since they'll be visually different on the NEC from the regional trains (more so than just the inclusion of different shaped cars, which is probably something only us railfans will notice).


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## jis (Oct 24, 2013)

It will create an interesting headache on MD (Middle Distance) trains that use a mix of equipment. I doubt that they will rebrand a bunch of Amfleet I cars for use on the Palmetto or the Pennsylvanian and such. Or maybe all day trains will be clumped together with Regionals. But still there'd be the problem of those Amfleet II cars used in them.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 24, 2013)

jis said:


> It will create an interesting headache on MD (Middle Distance) trains that use a mix of equipment. I doubt that they will rebrand a bunch of Amfleet I cars for use on the Palmetto or the Pennsylvanian and such. Or maybe all day trains will be clumped together with Regionals. But still there'd be the problem of those Amfleet II cars used in them.


And what about the Superliners? Are they going to be rebranded too? And Superliner coach cars get around. Some are used for Michigan service, some are used in California service, some on the Heartland Flyer...

Seems like we headed back to the days of consists with a variety of paint schemes, which doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

I do see some advantages in rebranding LD service, but also risks in higher visibilty. And how many non-foamers will care or even be confused by this move?


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## VT Hokie (Oct 24, 2013)

Amtrak finally has decent looking uniform consists. Guess it was time to screw things up...


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> And what about the Superliners? Are they going to be rebranded too? And Superliner coach cars get around. Some are used for Michigan service, some are used in California service, some on the Heartland Flyer...


Phase III is for the single level equipment only.


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## rickycourtney (Oct 24, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> And what about the Superliners? Are they going to be rebranded too? And Superliner coach cars get around. Some are used for Michigan service, some are used in California service. Seems like we headed back to the days of consists with a variety of paint schemes, which doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
> 
> I do see some advantages in rebranding LD service, but also risks in higher visibilty. And how many non-foamers will care or even be confused by this move?


That will also be changing here in the next few years...

Illinois, Michigan and Missouri will be getting 88 of their own "third generation Bi-Level intercity cars" starting in late 2015. California will also be adding 42 cars to it's fleet. Hopefully that will allow Amtrak to get the Superliners out of corridor service.

Much like the unique "Amtrak California" livery you might see those new cars painted in a new "Amtrak Midwest" scheme.

There is a "brand recognition" here in California. When most passengers (read: non-railfans) stand on a platform and see a Blue and Orange train... they know that's an Amtrak California train. If they see a silver train with red, white, and blue stripes they know that's a long distance train (and hopefully think of all the places it could take them).

I think Amtrak is trying to bring this to the Northeast Corridor... creating "brand recognition" between Acela, Northeast Regional, and Amtrak America trains.


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## sitzplatz17 (Oct 24, 2013)

I really, really like this idea. Massive Kudos to Amtrak for going in this direction.

The idea of separate branding for each region and having the long-distance elevated to it's own brand (and a sexy phase III brand at that!) makes a lot of sense.

Once the mid-west corridor cars come online i don't see an issue with repainting the Superliners either.

As for the current Viewliners I assume they'll be repainted as well?


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## spidersfan351 (Oct 24, 2013)

I also am a big fan of this move. It helps to separate LD trains from the rest, and hopefully at least raise awareness for what they do. It's good to see Amtrak putting effort into them, I've felt for a while that Amtrak Long Distance needed some love from someone who cares. Not sure if this will get them there, but it's encouraging.


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## SarahZ (Oct 24, 2013)

I really hope the Midwest cars are painted in "camo ombre" with "hunter orange chic" touches. We could even mount antlers on the front end.


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## rickycourtney (Oct 24, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> I really hope the Midwest cars are painted in "camo ombre" with "hunter orange chic" touches. We could even mount antlers on the front end.


Haha.

We have "touches" of orange in the mostly navy blue Amtrak California paint scheme... it looks quite nice.

Although if you're going to paint the train in camo... you better hope they use that orange color on the noses of the locomotives and cab cars (or you're going to have a lot of cars being hit by trains that appeared to be "hidden" in the woods!)


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## Anderson (Oct 24, 2013)

Though it's less well-defined, let's not forget that Amtrak Virginia is also a thing.


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## sitzplatz17 (Oct 24, 2013)

Isn't Amtrak Virginia part of Northeast Regional though?

Either way it's a good thing.

I like the whole "Amtrak ______" branding. E.g. Amtrak America, Amtrak Cascades, Amtrak California, Amtrak Virginia, etc.

I wonder if the mid-west will get a branding? E.g. "Amtrak mid-america" haha


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## MiRider (Oct 24, 2013)

I'd love to see the Michigan trains branded somehow with our very successful Pure Michigan brand.

People really respond well to things like this.

The branded Michigan trains would give our state a lot of visibility when they're passing through Indiana and Illinois.

There are more people than not that have no idea where you can take a train.


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## SarahZ (Oct 24, 2013)

A Michigan-specific design would be nice, but to be fair, the "Michigan Services" trains serve cities in Indiana as well.

For the Wolverine, I think it would be neat to have a design that has the Chicago skyline on one end and the Detroit skyline on the other, with some farmland, lakes, and the Indiana Dunes along the middle.

For the Blue Water, they could do a similar design, but instead of the Detroit skyline, it would have the Blue Water Bridge on the other end.

The Pere Marquette could have the same Chicago/Dunes thing along with bike trails, wineries, and maybe some tulips to represent Holland along with the GR skyline on the other end.

I'm picturing it sort of like the Michigan license plate design that's been around for a few years. I like the way they use the gradient to go from skyline to pine trees. Unfortunately, the registration stickers block both top corners of the plate and cover the design.


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## Scott Orlando (Oct 24, 2013)

I understand Amtrak is proud of the heritage and thats why they want to go the Phase III look....but

It seemed to take a good while (from a Florida perspective) to see a consistent uniform Phase IV train. I dont dislike the Phase III but I would say IV is better and more modern. The conformity of the paint seemed to make the awkward Heritage/Viewliner/Amfleet a little easier to look at. Now we will introduce these long awaited cars, in Phase III paint. That was something that would make the whole consist look even better, the Viewliner baggage and diner, replacing the older heritage. But now? I like the Amtrak America branding. But as a railfan I know I am worried too much about the look. But it is hard to imagine it looking good.


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## benjibear (Oct 24, 2013)

I am not really crazy about the "Amtrak America" and separate branding for different routes. With a push by some members of congress, the media, and the public to discontinue unprofitable routes, it will be easier to break it apart when Amtrak is nicely separated into the different brands and the unpofitable ones will just disapear. Amtrak should be marketed as a complete system, like it was intended.


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## SarahZ (Oct 24, 2013)

benjibear said:


> I am not really crazy about the "Amtrak America" and separate branding for different routes. With a push by some members of congress, the media, and the public to discontinue unprofitable routes, it will be easier to break it apart when Amtrak is nicely separated into the different brands and the unpofitable ones will just disapear. Amtrak should be marketed as a complete system, like it was intended.


Hmm, that's a good point. Perhaps they could keep the Amtrak America red/white/blue with the regular branding on all of the trains and then maybe just have a skin on one of the cars? They did that with a route recently, but I can't remember which one it was. It wasn't the Egyptian thing... I'll have to search the forums when I have some time tonight. Regardless, it looked really sharp.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 24, 2013)

Bad idea.

For the above reason that several members have posted.

I also don't like someone stick a flag in my face to protect their funding. Or change the name to promote a feeling of national pride.

Pure politics at work here. Now the when the congress holds a meeting they have to bash "Amtrak America" even if a congress member does not use the correct title, I am sure the person who reply to the question will be saying it with ever statement.

That and the current paint colors on the cars work for me. The engines are a different issues.


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## trainman74 (Oct 24, 2013)

Just as long as they don't follow the Northeast Regional example, and drop individual train names in favor of "Amtrak America 1," "Amtrak America 2," "Amtrak America 3," etc.

(Yes, I know that would be _highly_ unlikely.)


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## Trogdor (Oct 24, 2013)

That whole look just screams 1980s.


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## bgiaquin (Oct 24, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> That whole look just screams 1980s.


And I thought I needed a DeLorean to go back in time!! :giggle: :giggle:


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## Shortline (Oct 24, 2013)

Link to pics? Am I just missing it?


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2013)

From another thread:



RyanS said:


> Amtrak has a new blog post up with pictures. Cars look AWESOME!
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2013/10/coming-soon-new-long-distance-cars/
> 
> Teaser:


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## Nathanael (Oct 24, 2013)

Oh my.

It's not accurate to call this Phase III though -- it's not the same striping, it's subtly different striping.

Here's the actual Phase III striping:

http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/paintschemes/paintschemes.html#p3c

Call this new striping Phase V, perhaps (since there hasn't been a Phase V for passenger cars, only for locos)? Or Phase IIIb? Or Phase VI? I think it's pretty cute, but it's really not Phase III.

"Amtrak America" mainly represents a matter of succumbing to a trend, in that "Amtrak California" and "Amtrak Cascades" and "Amtrak Virginia" and "Amtrak Illinois" are already in use. (Didja know about that last one?) There's also "North Carolina's Amtrak". Of course, it is also a sensible political move to make it harder for Congressmen to bash the Amtrak America trains in public.

If this branding is to have any meaning, however, I would advise that every Amtrak America train have similar equipment quality: in short, those three stripes should signal a sleeper or an Amfleet II sized seat, and you should never see corridor-density seating with this branding. It should also be possible to tell which type of seat you're buying when you make a reservation. That way there really would be a clear meaning to "Amtrak America".


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## Nathanael (Oct 24, 2013)

One further comment: these new "Phase VI" stripes look like decals or vinyl or something similar, not paint.


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## Bus Nut (Oct 24, 2013)

rickycourtney said:


> I think Amtrak is trying to bring this to the Northeast Corridor... creating "brand recognition" between Acela, Northeast Regional, and Amtrak America trains.


Yes, and I think this is great... heck, I'm wondering why I didn't think of it. France, for example, does this, as does Germany. You can clearly tell a TGV or ICE is different from the commuter lines and day trains (even the expresses).


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## Bus Nut (Oct 24, 2013)

I love this idea.



MiRider said:


> I'd love to see the Michigan trains branded somehow with our very successful Pure Michigan brand.
> 
> People really respond well to things like this.
> 
> ...


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## Bus Nut (Oct 24, 2013)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Bad idea.
> 
> For the above reason that several members have posted.
> 
> ...


I guess you don't remember the "All Aboard, America. All Aboard Amtrak" ad campaign from the 1980s. (Look it up on Youtube.) The trains featured in these ads were LD trains.

The story of Amtrak in the last 15 years has been loss of LD service while day trains have been developed with state level funding and federal funding (sometimes yanked away like Lucy with Charlie's football) on the high speed service. These new services have developed distinct identities (Acela was a consultant's project, others were state DOT initiatives).

Amtrak America is more a reclaiming of an identity for a service that's been kicked around for too long. Far from diminishing LD service I think it's a statement from a leadership that is very commited to LD to try to elevate the status of LD (Congress' favorite punching bag).

I don't think the identity is jingoistic when you consider that Amtrak provides a vital transportation link for many rural communities that do not have regular air service.


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## Anderson (Oct 25, 2013)

sitzplatz17 said:


> Isn't Amtrak Virginia part of Northeast Regional though?
> 
> Either way it's a good thing.
> 
> ...


Yes and no. VA has been pushing the "Amtrak Virginia" label, even though the trains are Northeast Regional trains, in part due to the PRIIA situation. I suspect it's also because VA is looking to run a _ton_ of additional trains in the next decade or two (you ought to see what the various agencies are throwing around down here).


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 25, 2013)

Trogdor said:


> That whole look just screams 1980s.


Indeed.

Then again, it's not like you need special paint to make a Boxliner look like it came from the 1980's.


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## Anderson (Oct 25, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > That whole look just screams 1980s.
> ...


For some reason, "Boxliner" sounds like an intermodal service.


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## Acela150 (Oct 25, 2013)

Over on Railroad.net there's a ton of people complaining about how Amtrak just got to one paint job.. Who cares if it runs well?


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## PaulM (Oct 25, 2013)

RyanS said:


> Amtrak has a new blog post up with pictures. Cars look AWESOME!
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2013/10/coming-soon-new-long-distance-cars/



But I didn't see a delivery schedule. Am I the only who doesn't care what they look like. After all, I trust they will look like a rail car, not a John Deere combine. But I don't trust that I'll live long enough to ride one.


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## rickycourtney (Oct 25, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> One further comment: these new "Phase VI" stripes look like decals or vinyl or something similar, not paint.


The Superliner cars use vinyl stripes, not paint... so that wouldn't be suprising.

On another note... these stripes are very bright (almost a candy apple red) but I can't tell if that's what they look like... or just a filter Amtrak used on the images.


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## Ryan (Oct 25, 2013)

PaulM said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak has a new blog post up with pictures. Cars look AWESOME!
> ...


At the end of the video they say "Winter 2013" for the first cars for testing, "Summer 2014" for first revenue service.


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## cirdan (Oct 25, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> One further comment: these new "Phase VI" stripes look like decals or vinyl or something similar, not paint.


 If that is so, that may be a smart move. When equipment gets moved around from one type of service to another it would make a rebranding much less painful and so avert the risk of slipping back to the rainbow livery days.


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## xyzzy (Oct 25, 2013)

Fewer than 1% of Amtrak's customers care about the livery.

A national branding is good, so far as it goes.. but the overnight trains aren't the same as non-NEC corridor trains (e.g. Chicago-Detroit) or the semi-LD trains like the Carolinian and Palmetto that aren't corridor trains but don't run overnight. Perhaps Amtrak has a way to resolve these branding discrepancies, or perhaps Amtrak figures it isn't worth the trouble to.


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## SubwayNut (Oct 25, 2013)

The trains that will be most confusing are the Adirondack, Maple Leaf, and Pennsylvanian since these trains use a mix of Amfleet I and Amfleet II cars, heck on both the Adirondack and Pennsylvanian the Amfleet I Cafe Car always seems to have the "Northeast Regional" branding. If they repainted all the Amfleet IIs you would have an Amtrak America Amfleet II next to a Northeast Regional Cafe Car.


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## xyzzy (Oct 25, 2013)

The Palmetto often has an Amfleet I car, and the Carolinian occasionally gets an Amfleet II.


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## MiRider (Oct 25, 2013)

New video posted

[yt]

[/yt]


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## Ryan (Oct 25, 2013)

That's the same video from yesterday.


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## SarahZ (Oct 25, 2013)

rickycourtney said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > One further comment: these new "Phase VI" stripes look like decals or vinyl or something similar, not paint.
> ...


I think it's the shop lighting, which is pretty yellow. Once they're in daylight, which has more blue to it, I'm betting the red will look more like a true red.


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## MiRider (Oct 25, 2013)

RyanS said:


> That's the same video from yesterday.


Exactly where is it posted in this thread?

Because, you see, I'm not a *foamer* and never will be like most others that take Amtrak so I'm not going to read through tons of foamer posts about things I don't care about.

This thread is about Amtrak America branding and this video clearly shows the new paint with Amtrak America branding.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 25, 2013)

xyzzy said:


> Fewer than 1% of Amtrak's customers care about the livery.


If that's actually true then why bother repainting everything?


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## jis (Oct 25, 2013)

At least theoretically it should not be that hard to restripe a limited number of cars quite quickly as they are transferred from one pool to another. It allegedly takes about 4 hours to do the deed these days. As for what they will or will not do is a different matter altogether. 

Seems like there are at most 20 odd Amfleet II cars in the non-LD pool at present all operating out of Sunnyside. The rest of the Amfleet IIs are all used in LD trains.


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## Ryan (Oct 25, 2013)

MiRider said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > That's the same video from yesterday.
> ...


The video is actually about the new Viewliners, so it was posted in both of the Viewliner II discussions:



jis said:


> Here's the video


There's nothing wrong with posting it here as well, I mostly said that so people that already saw it didn't waste time thinking it was yet another video.


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## jis (Oct 25, 2013)

MiRider said:


> Because, you see, I'm not a *foamer* and never will be like most others that take Amtrak


Of No! We have another "foamer denier" among us!  Juuust kidding!


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## MiRider (Oct 25, 2013)

This is all about brand awareness and Amtrak needs to make up for a lot of lost time and missed opportunities.

This is a great idea, imo, and not an expensive one.


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## MiRider (Oct 25, 2013)

RyanS said:


> MiRider said:
> 
> 
> > That's the same video from yesterday.
> ...


The video is actually about the new Viewliners, so it was posted in both of the Viewliner II discussions:



jis said:


> Here's the video



OH NO! Saving people wasting time on an internet train forum from wasting time watching a video they may have already seen about trains. :blink:


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## Ryan (Oct 25, 2013)

I'm sorry that you didn't find my comments helpful. You're welcome to ignore them at your leisure.


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## xyzzy (Oct 25, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> > Fewer than 1% of Amtrak's customers care about the livery.
> ...


Because companies get caught up in the purity of branding, or they figure that they have to repaint everything from time to time anyway. I fly on American Airlines almost every week. Do I care what logo is on their website or whether the fuselage is the new paint scheme or the old polished aluminum? Not a bit. But I understand why AA did it... partly to prove a point, partly to prepare for the US Airways merger (if it happens), partly because they'll be acquiring composite-frame aircraft.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 25, 2013)

xyzzy said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > xyzzy said:
> ...


During the span of AA's one branding scheme change Amtrak has now gone through no less than *five* separate schemes.


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## xyzzy (Oct 25, 2013)

True. On the other hand, during that period Delta has been through 5 that I can think of: current, swoosh tail, D-e-l-t-a on the tail, Song, and the classic from the 1960s. I don't have enough fingers to count Piedmont/USAir/USAirways schemes (remember MetroJet?) during that same time.


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## The Journalist (Oct 25, 2013)

I had a weird dream last night, and the only part of it I remember clearly is it involved a Superliner in these colors. So, uh, I guess it's making an impression?

Side note: count me as one who misses ostentatious liveries; similarly, I find the current Amtrak scheme rather dull. I actually liked the "splotches" scheme on the Regionals that they used for a while.


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## The Journalist (Oct 25, 2013)

Having forgotten about MetroJet, I looked it up and found this:




Man, that's got to be the most confused livery I've ever seen on a single object. There's three different brandings on there…I can understand the worry about mismatched trains if that's what it'll end up looking like.


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## cpamtfan (Oct 25, 2013)

First off, the only thing "painted" anymore in the Amtrak fleet are the locomotives and MOW equipment. All coaches and such are vinyl wrap now.

Secondly, the least of everyones concerns should be about how the cars are painted. Things that have always been issues are how well their built, how will the interiors hold up, will all the outlets work, etc.

The difference between what Phase III was in 1999 is totally different than it is now. Back then, it signified the decay and unpleasantness of Amtrak. Now, it actually signifies something new.

In my opinion, Amtrak should just scrap a set paint scheme and switch to specific colors for specific sections of the train. This could be done system wide to all long distance equipment.

Example:

RED = sleeper class

BLUE= coach/economy what ever it should be called

Baggage and food service cars could either be unwrapped, and just be plain stainless steel (a great look IMO), a Phase III type bridge, or have a simple white stripe to "connect" the train


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## VT Hokie (Oct 25, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Over on Railroad.net there's a ton of people complaining about how Amtrak just got to one paint job.. Who cares if it runs well?


How about having the trains run well AND not look like crap. Something Amtrak has finally achieved with a uniform, professional looking color scheme and is now going to throw away by going back to mix & match rainbow trains.


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## xyzzy (Oct 25, 2013)

There were some MetroJet 737-200s painted in solid red. But MetroJet was so short-lived that not all the aircraft assigned to it by USAir were repainted.

Notice the ex-Hawaiian DC-9 in the background and what appears to be a Transamerica jet.


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## zephyr17 (Oct 25, 2013)

I think they should go bare stainless steel, like any self respecting stainless streamliner should. Letter it with "Amtrak".


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## Big Iron (Oct 25, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> I think they should go bare stainless steel, like any self respecting stainless streamliner should. Letter it with "Amtrak".


I don't guess I need to tell you but as far as I'm concerned the CB&Q livery was the best of them all.


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## The Davy Crockett (Oct 26, 2013)

From Politico's Morning Transportation Report from 10/25/13:



> *BOARDMAN OPTIMISTIC ABOUT REAUTHORIZATION: *All the early indications out of the House Transportation Committee are that its upcoming Amtrak bill could include some pretty big changes to the money-losing long-distance routes. But that's not worrying Joe Boardman, Amtrak's president and CEO, who announced Thursday that the first of the railroad's 130 new cars -costing nearly $300 million - are nearly done and all will be delivered by the end of 2015. Boardman said he hadn't seen any legislative text yet but thinks "there's a continuing desire on Chairman Denham and Chairman Shuster's part" to have a bill ready this year. Boardman said part of Denham and Shuster's problem is Congress in general: "I think they get the fact that there's this importance of long-distance trains. I think they're hampered by the difficulties in Washington today, trying to find where money will come from to deliver, not only for this but for all the other kinds of programs we're trying to make happen today. So, from that standpoint, I'm pleased that we have two chairman that are trying to pay attention to and having a discussion about the necessities, and I also understand the position they're in."


All of this has an eerie ring to it... New and/or redone cars, serious questions about the viability of LD trains.. A national train service going in one direction while the conservative elements of a national government go in the opposite direction... Obviously there are some major differences, but its a bit like VIA and Canada these days, eh?


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## caravanman (Oct 26, 2013)

The expression "Put out more flags" comes to my mind. Unable to resolve basic passengers concerns such proper cleaning of toilets, regulation of temperatures, clean windows, or provide well trained customer service staff, they decide to re-paint the rolling stock?? Whoopie!!

Ed.


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## jis (Oct 26, 2013)

cpamtfan said:


> In my opinion, Amtrak should just scrap a set paint scheme and switch to specific colors for specific sections of the train. This could be done system wide to all long distance equipment.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


I think there is a middle way. There are two practices short of simply having completely different liveries that are used effectively in Europe:
1. A stripe near the roof line of a specific color for each class.

2. A diagonal stripe across the door of a color depicting the class.

In both cases the basic theme based on a service type is maintained as a background with the class colors overlayed.

Afterall, it seems to me that the idea of a Thalys, or TGV or Eurostar or ICE brand color uniformly across the train is a good thing. Similar to that having an Amtrak America, Amtrak Cascade, Amtrak California Amtrak NEC etc. livery would be a good thing.

Ideally each of these should be viewed and structured as a TOC (Train Operating Company). In principle there could be an Amtrak Virginia with a distinct scheme that provides equipment for run through trains on the NEC carrying colors of Amtrak Virginia, while Amtrak NEC provides equipment for some run throughs to Virginia carrying Amtrak NEC colors. And then again there would probably be a few weird trains that equipment from a pool, and those might land up with rainbow consists like used to happen back when too.

Service brand color distinguishing trains is very important to avoid confusion among passengers. For example most people now know the NJT and Amtrak service brand colors and usually do not make the mistake of walking onto a wrong train (in most cases.... there are always exceptionally disconnected from reality people who will do all sorts of weird things irrespective of the obvious).


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## jis (Oct 26, 2013)

caravanman said:


> The expression "Put out more flags" comes to my mind. Unable to resolve basic passengers concerns such proper cleaning of toilets, regulation of temperatures, clean windows, or provide well trained customer service staff, they decide to re-paint the rolling stock?? Whoopie!!
> 
> Ed.


Currently it is just paint new cars. What will happen with grand plans to repaint, or actually no paint involved, re-decal, is another matter. But most likely it will happen since it is not exceedingly expensive anyway.


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## Trogdor (Oct 26, 2013)

jis said:


> cpamtfan said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, Amtrak should just scrap a set paint scheme and switch to specific colors for specific sections of the train. This could be done system wide to all long distance equipment.
> ...


Amtrak started doing that with the Acela Regional back in 2000 or so. The Amfleets were painted in the "lava lamp" style paint scheme, with different color combinations being for the different types of cars (coach, cafe, business class, plus even a couple of heritage baggage cars).

Of course, they didn't get very far into the fleet, and still had a mix of Acela, phase IV, and phase III cars in the consists. Eventually, David Gunn came along and had everything painted in the same paint, modified phase IV scheme, and that's where we are today (or, were, until the foamers longing for a return to the 1980s started painting stuff again).


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## Nathanael (Oct 26, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> I think they should go bare stainless steel, like any self respecting stainless streamliner should. Letter it with "Amtrak".


FWIW, the use of vinyl decals means that they are basically bare stainless steel. Changing color schemes is much cheaper with vinyl decals than with paint.


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## zephyr17 (Oct 26, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > I think they should go bare stainless steel, like any self respecting stainless streamliner should. Letter it with "Amtrak".
> ...


I really was talking more aesthetics than maintenance. The decals make it look "painted". I meant have the look of a classic bare stainless streamliner, like Santa Fe, Burlington, etc. By all means use a decal for the Amtrak lettering or logo instead of painting it on, but lose the window band striping.


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## buddy559 (Oct 26, 2013)

xyzzy said:


> True. On the other hand, during that period Delta has been through 5 that I can think of: current, swoosh tail, D-e-l-t-a on the tail, Song, and the classic from the 1960s. I don't have enough fingers to count Piedmont/USAir/USAirways schemes (remember MetroJet?) during that same time.


Is "swoosh tail" the tri colored wrinkled blanket tail?


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## railbuck (Oct 27, 2013)

buddy559 said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> > True. On the other hand, during that period Delta has been through 5 that I can think of: current, swoosh tail, D-e-l-t-a on the tail, Song, and the classic from the 1960s. I don't have enough fingers to count Piedmont/USAir/USAirways schemes (remember MetroJet?) during that same time.
> ...


Officially known as "Colors in Motion" but often referred to as "wavy gravy."


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## Alika (Apr 8, 2014)

{sigh} As someone with a bit of a design background, I must say Amtrak really needs to get a clue when it comes to branding. You don't restore a bygone logo or livery design unless it evokes a positive nostalgia for the kind of service you provided during that era. Amtrak is a company that needs to accentuate the potential in its future instead of looking back on its mediocre past.

I'm all for ditching the Phase IVb livery. I've never liked its "let's paint horizontal stripes on everything and make damn sure the lines are of varying widths so that all of our consists look sloppy" approach. Will bringing back Phase III (and an out-of-date logo) help? Well, outside of the foamer and passenger rail advocate communities, the popular perception is that Amtrak's long-distance rail service is dated. How is bringing back a dated 1980s livery supposed to suggest that Amtrak is looking to the future?

Like a couple other posters, I am one of the folks who more-or-less likes the design direction of the Phase V / Acela livery. It's nice to have seen Amtrak--at least once--ditch its boring, dated, and impractical horizontal striping and think outside the Ambox.

You want America (and Congress, for that matter) to realize that you're trying to push the envelope by aggressively rebuilding passenger rail in America? Then brand your fleet accordingly. And if it help builds Amtrak as a cohesive, forward-looking national brand, bring the regional affiliates on board with your design direction, kicking and screaming if need be. If they want to trade on your name, they're going to do it by your rules. Show that you're willing to push more boundaries service-wise by pushing more boundaries design-wise.


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## boxcarsyix (Apr 8, 2014)

Im not sure that AMTRAK needs to have stripes at all. Many of the railroads with stainless steel cars just put the road name at the top of the car and left the rest alone. That would save money and and solve the uniformity problem.


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## FriskyFL (Apr 8, 2014)

Amtrak needs far more than a livery tweak - Amtrak needs to take control of the entire narrative, which for far too long has been written by the Right-wingnuts and fellow travelers. Convincing Right thinking America that Amtrak is far more than a money pit run solely by godless liberals.


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## printman2000 (Apr 8, 2014)

boxcarsyix said:


> Im not sure that AMTRAK needs to have stripes at all. Many of the railroads with stainless steel cars just put the road name at the top of the car and left the rest alone. That would save money and and solve the uniformity problem.


Been saying that for years! Check out a totally stripped down transition sleeper. I think it looks great. Just add some black AMTRAK lettering...







Photo courtesy of Tom Bedwell


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 8, 2014)

True the Plain Stainless Steel look with Amtrak Block Lettering! Logos and Paint Jobs are a waste of limited funds!


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## NE933 (Apr 8, 2014)

Alika said:


> {sigh} As someone with a bit of a design background, I must say Amtrak really needs to get a clue when it comes to branding. You don't restore a bygone logo or livery design unless it evokes a positive nostalgia for the kind of service you provided during that era. Amtrak is a company that needs to accentuate the potential in its future instead of looking back on its mediocre past.
> 
> I'm all for ditching the Phase IVb livery. I've never liked its "let's paint horizontal stripes on everything and make damn sure the lines are of varying widths so that all of our consists look sloppy" approach. Will bringing back Phase III (and an out-of-date logo) help? Well, outside of the foamer and passenger rail advocate communities, the popular perception is that Amtrak's long-distance rail service is dated. How is bringing back a dated 1980s livery supposed to suggest that Amtrak is looking to the future?


Part of the problem here is knowing what's what: Amtrak's long distance trains, circa 1980's and up to and including 1993, were exemplary operations. The "mediocre" is what we have in today's era. My reasoning is that back then, there were four more long distance routes than there are now and many more railcars, sleepers in particular, available to run long distance trains.

I have to blend in Northeast Corridor in this topic because they are connected, and one does affect another: in the mid-80's after the NEC Improvement Project was done, the line NY to Washington was in ship-shape, unlike the battered, overwhelmed creature that it is now. I think Joe Boardman is a good leader, but W. Graham Claytor is the flagship President and CEO to which all before and after him shall be compared: he was focused, never distracted, and deftly used ultimatums (threatened to walk out on the job unless essential funding was secured, in hand, now, not later....).

In the years inclusive of 1980 to 1993, Amtrak aggressively placed several orders of badly needed rolling stock and, got them rolling right away, as soon as safe to do so. Numerous TV commercials and newspaper and magazine print ads boldly pressed campaigns that not only increased ridership, but changed a culture. "Maybe You're Next Flight Should Be On A Train", "Come To Where The Sun Greets The Earth", "We Carry You In The Best Cars Across America", and more, were beautifully superior to anything the airlines, highway lobbies, and even current Amtrak culture can muster up. Read those phrases and close your eyes: you can picture yourself in a large windowed train traversing the Great Plains, or a canyon, or towns and cities bustling with life. The Amtrak Long Distance of yore was threatened even back then, but the difference is where it used to be emphatic, bold, and unapologetic, now it's timid and it's leaders are distracted and unfocused. Maybe a reorganization into three business lines can help, but it seems we tried that under Thomas Downs.

That Amtrak is restoring a retired logo (the inverted arrow) and paint scheme is both an indictment against its own present handling of the affairs of the long distance overnight passenger train as well as of Congress' near criminal hostilities towards them, and, an effort to sort of get a genie out of the bottle in hopes to repair that product. To pull it off, somebody has to cough up, sh** out, money. Enough money to start buying Superliner III's, and more Viewliner II's. They have to do this before they get their next sleep on their bed pillow, before they have their next baby, before going to the next party and answering the next text. GETTING A NEW FLEET IS EVERYTHING; all else is secondary.


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## ronkstevens (Apr 8, 2014)

Amtrak started doing that with the Acela Regional back in 2000 or so. The Amfleets were painted in the "lava lamp" style paint scheme, with different color combinations being for the different types of cars (coach, cafe, business class, plus even a couple of heritage baggage cars).

Of course, they didn't get very far into the fleet, and still had a mix of Acela, phase IV, and phase III cars in the consists. Eventually, David Gunn came along and had everything painted in the same paint, modified phase IV scheme, and that's where we are today (or, were, until the foamers longing for a return to the 1980s started painting stuff again).
Multiple branding / paint schemes dilute the overall product and brand recognition. If you want to talk about a strong national network, it should be uniform. It could be confusing to a traveler (especially a new traveler, which there are more and more of) to have the multiple branding


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## NE933 (Apr 8, 2014)

Multiple paint designs can get confusing, and I see this in State branding of the Cascades, California, and Surfliner product lines. We have creme, olive, brown, orange, and all blue colored trains.


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## D.P. Roberts (Apr 8, 2014)

Call me crazy, but I think it would be great if the paint on the outside was USEFUL and not just decorative. The vast majority of travelers (like myself) have no idea what the consist of the train is. So, why not paint each type of car with different stripes? Use red paint to write "COACH CAR" on the coach cars, blue to write "SLEEPING CAR", etc. That way, when it's time to board your train, you know whether a particular car is yours just by looking at it.


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## Eric S (Apr 8, 2014)

D.P. Roberts said:


> Call me crazy, but I think it would be great if the paint on the outside was USEFUL and not just decorative. The vast majority of travelers (like myself) have no idea what the consist of the train is. So, why not paint each type of car with different stripes? Use red paint to write "COACH CAR" on the coach cars, blue to write "SLEEPING CAR", etc. That way, when it's time to board your train, you know whether a particular car is yours just by looking at it.


And another color for Business Class. Use the same colors across all services, so that it starts to become clear that red is always COACH, blue is always SLEEPER, green is always BUSINESS (or whatever colors you prefer). I believe this is the practice in Europe, or at least much of Europe. One color consistently indicates First/Business and another color consistently indicates Second/Coach.


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## jis (Apr 8, 2014)

In Europe somehow AFAIR the color green is associated with standard or second class, and yellow or pink with firsts class.


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## MrFSS (Apr 8, 2014)

They have the type car printed on them sometimes.


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## D.P. Roberts (Apr 8, 2014)

MrFSS said:


> They have the type car printed on them sometimes.


True, but I often find myself in one of two situations:

1) The train is pulling into a platform, & it would be nice to know how far I have to walk, rather than constantly reading each car as I walk by, while trying to avoid people who are trying to entrain or detrain around me. It would be nice to know whether I'm one car away, or 10 cars away - especially when there's a time constraint. I've often boarded at out-of-the-way stations where the train has to stop twice (I forget what they call that- double spotted?), and I'm the only passenger for that stop. It would be great for everyone involved if I could see which car I'm in ASAP.

2) In busy, crowded, dark stations like Chicago, anything to help move everyone around more quickly would be beneficial. Those platforms are so crowded you can't move past anyone, and I've often found myself being forced to wait in line behind a group of people who are all asking an Amtrak agent which car is theirs. Being able to shout "GO TO THE BLUE CAR!" would probably help everyone.


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## NE933 (Apr 8, 2014)

What accident was that Superliner Lounge in?


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## MrFSS (Apr 9, 2014)

NE933 said:


> What accident was that Superliner Lounge in?


Don't know that it was in an accident. Picture was taken at Beech Grove shops and it could have been in for maintenance.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 9, 2014)

Look at the dent on the top of the car, Mr FSS.


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## MrFSS (Apr 9, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Look at the dent on the top of the car, Mr FSS.



Your probably right. Picture was taken almost 10 years ago, so I really don't remember much about where it even was in the yard. They park accident repairs in one area and maintenance/upgrade repairs in another area.


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## Trogdor (Apr 9, 2014)

D.P. Roberts said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > They have the type car printed on them sometimes.
> ...


What if there's more than one blue car? How does that help then?

Further, if you're the only passenger boarding at an out-of-the-way station, why does the train have to double-spot? Regardless, having car types painted different colors wouldn't change a thing, as you're still going to be standing where you're standing at the platform, and the train will still stop where it stops (which is up to the conductor and engineer to figure out). If you're the only person there, the conductor should have already figured out which car you need to board, and should spot the train such that that door is closest to wherever you are (unless the train has to spot in a specific position for some other reason, such as clearing a crossing or staying behind a signal; but as a passenger you wouldn't know that until the train stops anyway and the door opens with a crew member getting onto the platform).

Using the Chicago example, the poor lighting (combined with the fact that some could be visually impaired, or at least colorblind) would make the colors less useful. Much more useful would be simplifying the car numbering system, and actually having crews properly set the numbers. Things would be far simpler if folks were told to board car 4, rather than car 2132 (a single-digit number is far easier for the vast majority of the population to remember than a four-digit number). If the car numbers were actually correct (both inside and out) then things would be that much easier for passengers to figure out where they are.


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## neroden (Apr 9, 2014)

Trogdor said:


> If the car numbers were actually correct (both inside and out) then things would be that much easier for passengers to figure out where they are.


At Denver, not only are the car numbers correct, but last time I was there, the locations where each car will stop were marked in advance by little signs. That was certainly helpful. I haven't seen this particularly informative method used anywhere else.


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## Ryan (Apr 9, 2014)

It's used at both Auto Train stations.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 9, 2014)

neroden said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > If the car numbers were actually correct (both inside and out) then things would be that much easier for passengers to figure out where they are.
> ...


I boarded #5 once and later at a stop where I got off to stretch my legs I noticed the number on my car was for #6. I think I informed the SCA, but don't recall.


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## D.P. Roberts (Apr 9, 2014)

MrFSS said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Look at the dent on the top of the car, Mr FSS.
> ...


According to Trainweb, lounge 33036 derailed in Kingman, AZ in 08/97, returned to service 08/10. It cost somewhere between $500K- $1.4 million to repair.


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## D.P. Roberts (Apr 9, 2014)

Trogdor said:


> What if there's more than one blue car? How does that help then?
> 
> Further, if you're the only passenger boarding at an out-of-the-way station, why does the train have to double-spot? Regardless, having car types painted different colors wouldn't change a thing, as you're still going to be standing where you're standing at the platform, and the train will still stop where it stops (which is up to the conductor and engineer to figure out).


1) On most trains, the cars are usually grouped by type - sleepers together, coaches together. So, if there are 3 coaches and they're together near the end of the train, everyone can at least get to the correct area pretty easily. Even on trains like the EB with two sections, you could say "the blue cars in front" or something like that.

2) Perhaps I board in strange spots (small, unstaffed stations along the LSL/CL route through the midwest), but the platforms there are short. So, they have to spot for the sleeper, and then spot for the coach cars. I'm often on an award ticket, so I have a sleeper, but the few other passengers are almost always in coach. I know it can't be helped, but I always feel bad making people wait. I can tell the engineer feels the same, because as soon as my feet hit the doorway the train is moving again.

Nobody onboard knows who the passengers are. They can see a group of people milling about on the platform, but they have no idea who's in the sleepers and who's in coach.

As to how this helps - if I memorize the consist, I at least know which end of the train the car will be on. If I don't remember the consist - or for most people who wouldn't know or bother - I can see the red car (or blue car) coming from a mile away. I can tell whether I'm going to be at the front or back of the train while it's still pulling up to the platform, and can position myself in front of the door before the train even stops. It's faster for everyone.

I agree that it would help if the car numbers were correct, and if they used a simple two-digit numbering system. However, the average passenger doesn't know where to look on the car for the car number, plus there are two numbers on every car. If I'm new to Amtrak and I'm told that I'm in "Sleeping Car 4", and I walk by a car that's labeled "Sleeping Car 32103", I wouldn't think that's my car. I think your ideas are great, if Amtrak could do them - but coloring the cars would add another layer to the first system, without changing / complicating the numbering system. Plus, they're never going to need to change them, as a sleeper will always be a sleeper and a coach will always be a coach.


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## Trogdor (Apr 9, 2014)

D.P. Roberts said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > What if there's more than one blue car? How does that help then?
> ...


If the platforms are short, then it really doesn't matter where you stand or what color the cars are painted. The train requires two (or more) spots because not all of the cars where passengers will be boarding or alighting can fit with the doors on the platform. Usually (except for trains like the Builder or Lake Shore with sleepers at both ends) the double spots are one spot for sleepers, one for coaches. So, in your scenario, all the red cars will still spot/load at once, then all the blue cars. There's nothing a passenger (or the crew, for that matter) can do to change that, even if they knew exactly which car they were boarding.



> As to how this helps - if I memorize the consist, I at least know which end of the train the car will be on. If I don't remember the consist - or for most people who wouldn't know or bother - I can see the red car (or blue car) coming from a mile away. I can tell whether I'm going to be at the front or back of the train while it's still pulling up to the platform, and can position myself in front of the door before the train even stops. It's faster for everyone.


I doubt you'd be able to see a red or blue car coming from a mile away (certainly not literally, and realistically, not even figuratively either). Unless there's a curve just beyond the platform, one really can't see what cars are on the train until it gets right up on the platform. Even if you could, you wouldn't know where the door was going to be because it's up to the conductor and engineer to spot the train. Excluding the NEC and certain terminal stations, Amtrak's platforms don't have markers/boarding positions on them (and where they do exist, those signs are much more effective at telling people where to stand than hoping that someone understands an esoteric color-coding system where they sprint to the correct spot on the platform once the train pulls in, in a race to be at the door before the train stops), so there's no way to know where any given car is going to stop. On short platforms, again, there's not much choice anyway, because it's where the specific car or cars being worked will fit, and if it requires multiple stops, then that's just what it is.


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## railbuck (Apr 9, 2014)

neroden said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > If the car numbers were actually correct (both inside and out) then things would be that much easier for passengers to figure out where they are.
> ...


I've always wondered why they don't do this in Chicago, especially for the LSL. "Board here for South Bend through Cleveland" "Erie through Syracuse" maybe with the intermediate stations also listed, on a sandwich board with slots or pegs so the station names can be moved around to adjust for the loads for that run. Then the car attendants can actually help passengers board and settle in instead of directing traffic.


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## D.P. Roberts (Apr 9, 2014)

Trogdor said:


> If the platforms are short, then it really doesn't matter where you stand or what color the cars are painted. The train requires two (or more) spots because not all of the cars where passengers will be boarding or alighting can fit with the doors on the platform. Usually (except for trains like the Builder or Lake Shore with sleepers at both ends) the double spots are one spot for sleepers, one for coaches. So, in your scenario, all the red cars will still spot/load at once, then all the blue cars. There's nothing a passenger (or the crew, for that matter) can do to change that, even if they knew exactly which car they were boarding.
> 
> I doubt you'd be able to see a red or blue car coming from a mile away (certainly not literally, and realistically, not even figuratively either). Unless there's a curve just beyond the platform, one really can't see what cars are on the train until it gets right up on the platform. Even if you could, you wouldn't know where the door was going to be because it's up to the conductor and engineer to spot the train.


Again, from my experience, the train usually pulls up and the first section is boarded. Then, it pulls forward a little more and boards the second spot. So, you know that if your cars are hanging off the back of the platform, it must not be for you.

Perhaps my experiences are unusual, but I've seen the following happen many times on the CL:

1) The train pulls up to the platform to board the forward sleepers first. Since the sleepers are towards the front, the sleeper is towards the left of the platform. All the passengers have been milling about in the middle of the platform.

2) The SCA of ONE sleeping car opens his or her door. Since it's the only open door on the train, about half the people on the platform head for the open door. The SCA tries to shout that this is for SLEEPERS only, and that coach pax will board in a minute. He or she often calls out my name, & the name of another sleeper pax if there happens to be one. People try to board anyway, and mill about in confusion.

3) I board the car. The train pulls forward just enough to get the coach cars onto the far right side of the platform.

4) Half the passengers were already headed that way, but the confused Amtrak newbies are still way at the left end of the platform. We wait while they walk all the way to the other end and board the coach cars at the rear.

I think some of the confusion would be cleared up by making the train cars more clearly marked. It doesn't have to be color coded or confusing - a big "COACH CAR" or "SLEEPING CAR" written across the middle - in ANY color - would be helpful.

Most people don't know their train number, their car number, or even the name of the train that they're supposed to be on. All they know is the departure time and the city they're headed to, and they know what "class" they're in. Airports work pretty much the same way - most people know that they're on the 7:30 United flight to Chicago, and you can pretty much find it from there.

Oh, and my proportions can be off by a lot if one of the trains is late. The CL often arrives after the LSL's departure time. When that happens, the combined LSL and CL crowds both try to get on the CL, and there's much confusion and consternation by the LSL passengers who don't understand why they're not being allowed on the train. Considering that the CL uses Superliners and the LSL uses Viewliners, it shows you how little the general public knows or cares about rolling stock, consists, train numbers, or anything.


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## neroden (Apr 10, 2014)

D.P. Roberts said:


> 2) Perhaps I board in strange spots (small, unstaffed stations along the LSL/CL route through the midwest), but


D.P.: OK, you're implying that you usually board at one of a fairly select list of stations -- the unstaffed, shared LSL/CL, stations with short platforms. Now I'm curious which ones! This list is short:
Elkhart

Waterloo

Sandusky

Elyria

There has been serious talk of building a new set of platforms at Elyria, to move the station back to Elyria Union Station (though this project is dragging on like so many others). There's been somewhat-less-serious talk of moving the platforms at Waterloo to allow the trains to board without blocking the street crossings. I haven't heard anything about Sandusky or Elkhart.


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## D.P. Roberts (Apr 10, 2014)

neroden said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> > 2) Perhaps I board in strange spots (small, unstaffed stations along the LSL/CL route through the midwest), but
> ...


Waterloo, for the most part. But again, that's the only location where I've seen the double spotting, late-second-train problem. However, I have seen countless stations along the SWC and EB routes that are very small and lightly traveled. I do think that having clearly marked cars would make it easier on everyone who is unfamiliar with the consist - if you're waiting in a station building or in your car, you don't have to walk up and down the length of the train to check the car numbers, you can just SEE it wherever you are.

As to Waterloo itself - from what I heard, they were supposed to get a whole new platform and station (to replace the AmShack), but it sounds like those plans have fallen apart.


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## jis (Apr 10, 2014)

Wasn't the origin of the Waterloo station primarily a sop for folks in Fort Wayne who lost service when the Pennsy Fort Wayne Line was downgraded and the Broadway Limited was moved to the B&O line, also adding Garrett, IN to serve Fort Wayne. Of course the Broadway Limited and Garrett IN went bye bye, leaving just Waterloo around to serve Fort Wayne.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 10, 2014)

It's only phase IVb where amtrak removed huge easy to read car designators.


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## jis (Jun 2, 2014)

MrFSS said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > What accident was that Superliner Lounge in?
> ...


#33036 was in a derailment in Kingman AZ in 8/97, underwent a $1.366 million repair (TIGER) and was back on line 8/10


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 3, 2014)

What I don't get is that Amtrak spent years on repainting all of there cars into Phase IVb and just recently finished. Why are they going to go through all of the trouble AGAIN on repainting there cars into Phase III? Mixed paint schemes on Amtrak will make there trains look horrible. They should stick to Phase IVb because it's more modern and it will match all of there existing fleet.


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## neroden (Jun 3, 2014)

The "paint scheme" today is just vinyl wraps. It's not that expensive and it's not that much trouble.


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 3, 2014)

I knew that. I just wish they would stick to phase IVb


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## jis (Jun 3, 2014)

I have heard a usually reliable rumor that the plan is to go to Phase III+ (as it appears on the VL IIs) progressively as resources permit, for the entire single level LD equipment set.


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## Ryan (Jun 3, 2014)

That'll be lovely. Does that mean P42s as well? I'm not a fan of their current paint job.


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 4, 2014)

The current paint job on the p42s is the best one they ever had. No, the p42s will not be painted nor wi the Superliner's or amfleet I's.


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## Ryan (Jun 4, 2014)

You're smoking crack.

This is a classy looking locomotive:



Amtrak 66 P42 Heritage Unit by knelson27, on Flickr

This is a locomotive that matches the cars that it's pulling:



Amtrack 184-Capitol Limited Surprise by Photo Squirrel, on Flickr

I would fall asleep looking at this locomotive:



Amtrak 84 5/8/2013 by clkayleib, on Flickr

I do appreciate you clarifying that Superliners and Amfleet I's aren't "single level LD equipment".


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 4, 2014)

You need to realize that you grew up in the old days. Amtrak is up to date with their paint and it should be that way. It figures that you would want phase III to return. And the ones that you posted pictures are "HERITAGE" locomotives. I hope you know what I meant by that.


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## Ryan (Jun 4, 2014)

Amtrak172 said:


> You need to realize that you grew up in the old days.


Holy sh-t, I did?

How old do you think I am?

(you're also assuming that I grew up at some point)

Is this you?


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## VentureForth (Jun 4, 2014)

Note to Amtrak172: Ryan's avatar is NOT him.

I do prefer the current paint schemes - both the locos and the coaches. Superliners and Viewliners and Amfleets, I AND II. I even like most of Amtrak California's livery.

I think I'm royally confused. Phase III(b?) going on ALL Viewliners and associated Amfleets? NERs stay the same? What about the Palmetto which doesn't use Viewliners, but it not really an NER train?


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## Ryan (Jun 4, 2014)

Heh, I didn't even think about that.

Here, lemme fix it. 

That's not me, either. But my daughter's closer in age to me than my Grandfather was.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm not from the old days. I prefer Phase III. IVb is a reminder of Amtraks logo under Warrington- three sheets to the wind. Just like the company and the thankfully dead Warrington's ego.


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## jis (Jun 4, 2014)

I did not mean to start a war here. I was just (re) stating a rumor I have heard several times from sources that in the past have proved to be reliable (but past performance is no guarantee for the future, as they say on Wall Street). Also this is not even the first time I have mentioned it, even in this thread.

Palmetto is categorized as an LD train.

However, answering any detailed question at this point is impossible, since what I heard said nothing about those details. So please save all your apoplexies for later when we know for sure what will or will not happen. All that I heard is that all single level LD trains will eventually be liveried in Phase III as it appears on the new Viewliners, funding permitting.

As for my personal opinion, I think the Shamu livery on P42s is the worst of any livery on any Amtrak equipment ever. Even converting them to just plain Phase IVb would be a huge huge improvement. But Phase III would be even better. The Phase IV scheme is sort of like the new United livery, dated and blah. It may indeed be time for Amtrak to strike out in a new direction as far as livery goes, but until then I'd settle for Phase III rather than Phase IV anything. Just IMHO of course.

And please spare me the bovine scatology ad hominems involving whatever one thinks my age is or is not  (Amtrak 172, I'm looking at you)


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## PerRock (Jun 4, 2014)

As a graphic designer...

I prefer the current Travelscape logo over the older Chevron logo. Namely as it's a very over-used style from the era. As for paint schemes, I like the phase Vb paint scheme currently being used on the P42s, however I dislike that it doesn't carry accross to the cars, that being said I'm not certian how one would impliment that. Personally if I were coming up with a new paint scheme & logo for this "Amtrak America" branding I would look forward & come up with something new and different, rather then revamping an old design.

The logo for Amtrak America is hideous, it looks to me like something a secertary did in MS Word, rather then something a Graphic Designer would have done; even operating under the restrictions of re-using the older Chevron logo.

peter


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## JoeBas (Jun 4, 2014)

Amtrak172 said:


> You need to realize that you grew up in the old days. Amtrak is up to date with their paint and it should be that way. It figures that you would want phase III to return. And the ones that you posted pictures are "HERITAGE" locomotives. I hope you know what I meant by that.


Wow, we've *FINALLY* found the sole arbiter of taste and opinions in America.

When convenient, please tell us all what our favorite food, music, sports team and color should be, so we can all conform to your tastes in order to be "right". TIA.


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## neroden (Jun 4, 2014)

Honestly, I don't care about train color schemes at all.

There might be some small functional advantage to different color schemes on different types of trains, just to keep the people trying to catch a San Joaquin off of the Coast Starlight, and to keep the people trying to catch a Regional off the Silver Meteor.

But I was OK with the NYC Subway "graffiti" color scheme of the 1970s-1980s, so really, I don't care. ^_^ As long as the trains run on time. (Oh, wait...)


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 4, 2014)

,I'm not a Graphic Designer but I play one on AU! LOL I think Ryan's pictures speak for themselves! The Blah Blue paint scheme on the P-42s is just that!

IMHO the Classic Santa Fe War Bonnet Paint scheme on their Engines along with the SP Orange on the Streamliners were the Classiest looks ever!But I really am OLD!


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## Ryan (Jun 4, 2014)

jis said:


> As for my personal opinion, I think the Shamu livery on P42s is the worst of any livery on any Amtrak equipment ever


Second worse, in my opinion.

This takes top honors for being the worst:


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 4, 2014)

The Horizon Coaches paint scheme deserves a (Dis) Honorable Mention!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 4, 2014)

I found the 1970's and 1980’s schemes to be about as modern and sophisticated as an Uncle Sam poster. Seeing them make a comback would be funny if we didn't have all our eggs in one basket case. If you mentioned that Amtrak was ordering new hardware to a layman they might think this meant high speeds, advanced designs, improved service, and new branding were on the way. It's rather depressing to think that all this really means is that we'll have a bunch of new 1980's boxliners covered in 1980's branding.


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 4, 2014)

Wow, you are all taking this the wrong way. What I meant by "you grew up in the old days" is that phase III was probably the current paint. I have know idea nor do I care how old you are. We all have our taste in trains and Amtrak in the current paint is mine. I'm not trying to say that I wouldn't like Amtrak if they go back to phase III. I do think that if Amtrak wants a new paint scheme, I don't think they should go back to an older one.


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 4, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> > You need to realize that you grew up in the old days.
> ...


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## jis (Jun 4, 2014)

Cool! Peace!

As you will find some of us on AU here, grew up way before Amtrak had even appeared as a possibility, indeed some (not me personally) even were involved in the conception of Amtrak to save a national passenger rail system. So, many of us have gone through every phase starting from the Rainbow years of Amtrak, and Phase 0 and I and so on. Phase III was a relatively late comer to the game. Heck many of us have traveled by train when Steam was the primary power for railroads and diesels were just getting introduced to replace steam, and in electrics GG-1 in myriad of color schemes was the king. So one does need to broaden ones horizon beyond just thinking everyone older grew up when Phase III was in vogue. 

OTOH, many of us have also traveled extensively in Europe and Asia, so have been exposed to many other (some very attractive, much more so than anything that Amtrak has come up with so far) liveries beyond what has been in vogue in the US. Indeed _beautifulplanet_ has been running a campaign on AU for introducing more attractive livery on Amtrak and moving away from the traditional dated drab fair that has become the signature of Amtrak. See for example this thread:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/58590-high-speed-rail-a-more-attractive-exteriorinterior-design/


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## Ryan (Jun 4, 2014)

jis said:


> So one does need to broaden ones horizon beyond just thinking everyone older grew up when Phase III was in vogue.


And some of us are too young to ever remember seeing Phase III (except in its modern reincarnation).  Phase IV for the win!

This is a sweet looking railcar:


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 4, 2014)

JoeBas said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> > You need to realize that you grew up in the old days. Amtrak is up to date with their paint and it should be that way. It figures that you would want phase III to return. And the ones that you posted pictures are "HERITAGE" locomotives. I hope you know what I meant by that.
> ...




Shut up lol, you all took that the wrong way


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 4, 2014)

PerRock said:


> As a graphic designer...
> 
> I prefer the current Travelscape logo over the older Chevron logo. Namely as it's a very over-used style from the era. As for paint schemes, I like the phase Vb paint scheme currently being used on the P42s, however I dislike that it doesn't carry accross to the cars, that being said I'm not certian how one would impliment that. Personally if I were coming up with a new paint scheme & logo for this "Amtrak America" branding I would look forward & come up with something new and different, rather then revamping an old design.
> 
> ...


Is it possible for AMTZ (Amtrak Trainz Group) for you to come out with amfleet II coaches and cafés in phase IVb as well as amfleet I cafés?


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## PerRock (Jun 4, 2014)

Amtrak172 said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > As a graphic designer...
> ...


I don't modeling (ok I'm learning) so I'm restricted to the meshes currently available. Of which there are 3: Magiclands (which are outdated & don't work in newer versions), Connyxy's which can't be redistributed, and Jefff944's which only has the one coach. I hold the rights to Jefff944s, so they're the ones I use.

peter


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## Amtrak172 (Jun 5, 2014)

PerRock said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> > PerRock said:
> ...


The ones from Connyxy and Jefff944 amfleet II phase IVb? Where can I download them?

Amtrak172


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## Amtrak172 (Jul 8, 2014)

I don't known if anyone brought this up in the past but, I just recently noticed that the blue stripe on the new Viewliner II's is different than the blue stripe on the original phase III. The current Amtrak blue is the same shade of blue as the blue stripe on phase III. The blue stripe on the new Viewliner II's is a different shade of blue. Please forgive me if somebody brought this up in the past.

Amtrak172


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## seat38a (Jul 8, 2014)

"AMTRAK" already is a combination of America and Trak (Play on Track) and now they are going to add "america" to the name a second time.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Jul 8, 2014)

gahh it's like ATM machine or PIN Number ......... * fail *


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 9, 2014)

Railroad Passenger Equipment colors were lots more interesting before Amtrak. When I was a kid, in the 1950s and 1960s, it was so interesting to arrive at a large gateway station like St. Louis or Cincinnati and see all the colors of the various passenger cars. Railroads often borrowed cars from other Railroads. I remember seeing a New Haven Car in St. Louis. Quite frankly, the Amtrak paint schemes have boaring from the beginning, but I understand the need to standardize. Airline paint schemes have become boarding too.


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## VentureForth (Jul 9, 2014)

As opposed to Amtrak Mexico. Will Amtrak America serve Canada?


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## jis (Jul 9, 2014)

No. No Amtrak LD train serves Canada.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## seat38a (Jul 9, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> As opposed to Amtrak Mexico. Will Amtrak America serve Canada?


Nope, just "Amtrak New York" and Amtrak Cascades.


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## Big Iron (Jul 9, 2014)

RyanS said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > So one does need to broaden ones horizon beyond just thinking everyone older grew up when Phase III was in vogue.
> ...


My favorite iteration of paint schemes, on the locomotives as well. Silver trucks all the way around would look even better


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## Big Iron (Jul 9, 2014)

jphjaxfl said:


> Railroad Passenger Equipment colors were lots more interesting before Amtrak. When I was a kid, in the 1950s and 1960s, it was so interesting to arrive at a large gateway station like St. Louis or Cincinnati and see all the colors of the various passenger cars. Railroads often borrowed cars from other Railroads. I remember seeing a New Haven Car in St. Louis. Quite frankly, the Amtrak paint schemes have boaring from the beginning, but I understand the need to standardize. Airline paint schemes have become boarding too.


Agreed. I was 11 on A Day and got to enjoy the varied liveries of the day at WAS, CUS, LaSalle Street, CNW, and B & O Grand Central stations. I enjoyed the rainbow era as I got to see and ride in cars that an East Coaster normally did not get to see.


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## neroden (Jul 9, 2014)

"Amtrak National" would probably sound less dopey than "Amtrak America", but Amtrak America is tolerable.


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## PerRock (Jul 13, 2014)

So something I've been thinking about for some time now (and apparently some other graphic designers like me as well) is really what should be next for Amtrak in the way of branding. Personally I like the idea behind "Amtrak America" however I'm not to wild on the term they chose. Anyways, I while back I started a branding exercise to try and come up with the next look for Amtrak. I'm calling it Phase VI; and the idea is that it is a progression from the current Phase IVb/V paint schemes.

Part of the project is also restructure the corridor branding that Amtrak currently has, eliminating a lot of the single train brands (the names are still there, but the specially painted cars and such aren't) and incorporated them into a few new services.

As for exterior paint schemes, I chose to continue for phase IVb primarily, and while I recognize that there is a lot of love for III, I feel like adapting IVb is a better idea as it is looking forward rather then back. However I have looked back to the previous schemes as well as to some elements from before Amtrak. For instance the Superliner Cars get their large "Superliner" back on the sides, but in a style reminiscent of the old stainless steel cars from ATSF.

Anyways I'm more of a visual person then a written person, so here is version 1 of a branding guidelines document I put together, it shows most of what I have done so far & explains some of what & how.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwoszLS0nWxPdXI0TXp5LWdYZ0U/edit?usp=sharing

If you want to keep up to date on my project I'll post somewhat regular updated on my project thread on Amtrak Train Group, located here:

http://s4.zetaboards.com/amtkz/topic/10117363/1/#new

As a teaser, I've posted over there a picture of my new Sightseer Lounge, which I'm very proud of how it came out!

peter


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## neroden (Jul 13, 2014)

I actually suspect that part of the purpose of the "Amtrak America" paint scheme is to prevent confused passengers at Penn Station NY from getting onto Silver Service trains. If "Amtrak America" has one livery and "Amtrak Regional" has a different livery it may help some confused people avoid getting on the wrong train.

Though I really would have gone with "Amtrak National".


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jul 13, 2014)

PerRock. Pete love the NY empire route logo. Of course I am from NY, so I might not be a good judge.

Spell check Empire you mix up the order of the letters. Still good work.


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## Amtrak172 (Sep 20, 2015)

Can someone just bring me up to speed just incase you guys had already talked about this. I was in Philly yesterday and was railfanning the parking garage over Race Street Yard and noticed that the 10021 "Pacific Cape" is now painted in Phase III. It used to be Phase IVb, and from what I've been hearing, the Cape came in to the yard yesterday for its first time back from Beach Grove. The 10001 "Beach Grove" is also now in Phase III. Does anyone know what Amtrak's plans are with the Phase III paint scheme and what cars will get it? Besides the Viewliners and some of the Amfleet II's. Thanks guys


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