# AGR Website



## Acela150 (Apr 11, 2019)

I'm surprised that this hasn't been brought up. 

About a week ago Amtrak combined the AGR site with Amtrak.com and I honestly can't stand it. But that's my two cents and they didn't ask for my input. Lol!


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 11, 2019)

I thought I saw something posted about it here. Or was it FB.


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## desertflyer (Apr 11, 2019)

I prefer having everything on one domain. Hopefully they roll it into the app soon too.


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## willem (Apr 12, 2019)

Thanks for the info. I investigated.

Seriously, I need to agree to new terms and conditions every time I log in? If so, at the very least, it would be appropriate to put the date of the terms and conditions in that box where I say I have read them.

And paste is disabled in the password field. Ordinarily, my password manager would enter the password, but on a first visit, I needed to enter it manually. What does disabling paste accomplish other than inconveniencing a paying customer?

And it seems to me that a higher priority than combining the web sites (not saying that it's good or bad to combine them) would be to display all the customer's reservations, not just those made on the web site. But as Acela150 said, they didn't ask for my input.


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## Bex (Apr 13, 2019)

willem said:


> Thanks for the info. I investigated.
> 
> Seriously, I need to agree to new terms and conditions every time I log in? If so, at the very least, it would be appropriate to put the date of the terms and conditions in that box where I say I have read them.
> 
> ...



(edited to remove the comment about the T&C... that happened to me on the old site and still does. So badly coded.)

As to the paste, I agree with you completely and so use a Chrome extension that disables that. Not sure of the profanity rules on this site, so let's just say you can Google "don't mess with paste" and it will come up for you. There are also versions for other browsers.


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## TinCan782 (Apr 14, 2019)

Both Chrome and Edge "auto-fill" the logon name and password for me. Haven't tried paste.
Tired of having to click "agree" to terms and conditions EVERY TIME I log on!


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## juanee (Apr 29, 2019)

I had problems logging into amtrak.com using my AGR login on my Firefox web browser (Windows 10 computer). I noticed that my Amtrak APP on my iPhone was still working so I decided to delete all the cookies on my Firefox web browser related to amtrak (*.amtrak.com, *.amtrakguestrewards.com, etc.) That did the trick.


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## Tennessee Traveler (Jun 6, 2019)

I just started having problems "loading" Amtrak Guest Rewards As of 6/5 and 6/6/19, when I sign on to Amtrak.com on either the IPhone App or on my PC Chrome Browser, Amtrak.com comes up with all my reservations made online or via phone call with no problem. If I try to transfer on the app or on my PC, it asks me to sign on and then stays in the "LOADING" status forever and never goes to the AmtrakGuestRewards either on the IPhone app or on my PC Chrome browser. Is this just me or are others experiencing this. Up until now I have had no problem using the app or Chrome to get to Amtrak Guest Rewards.


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## kt1i (Jun 8, 2019)

Yes, there's something going on. I see the same "infinate "loading problem


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## PRR 60 (Jun 8, 2019)

As of this evening, no problem here. Logged in at Amtrak.com, and I was able to pull up all my AGR info.


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## Pacific Surfrider (Jun 8, 2019)

Tennessee Traveler said:


> I just started having problems "loading" Amtrak Guest Rewards As of 6/5 and 6/6/19...



Not sure if it is related, but I've had a problem for over a month where multi-ride tickets purchased through the iPhone app show up right after purchase, but then disappear the next time I look (the next day). Reported to Amtrak.


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## pennyk (Jun 8, 2019)

PRR 60 said:


> As of this evening, no problem here. Logged in at Amtrak.com, and I was able to pull up all my AGR info.



same here


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## George K (Jun 9, 2019)

I'm still having problems even after deleting cookies and cache, restarting the computer. On a Mac.

Safari, Firefox and Chrome all give the aptly-named "infinite loading problem"

Also, when I log into Amtrak.com, clicking on the AGR link logs me out and I have to log in again. Once logged in, the spinning wheel continues forever.


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## bratkinson (Jun 10, 2019)

George K said:


> I'm still having problems even after deleting cookies and cache, restarting the computer. On a Mac.
> 
> Safari, Firefox and Chrome all give the aptly-named "infinite loading problem"
> 
> Also, when I log into Amtrak.com, clicking on the AGR link logs me out and I have to log in again. Once logged in, the spinning wheel continues forever.



I'm still having the same problem on both my Windows 7 Pro computers. Most likely, this is the result of failure to regression test (fully prove they didn't 'break' something unrelated to the changes) some new 'enhancements' on their website. They must have broken it 'good'...even my Android cell phone has the exact same problem when I try to go to the Guest Rewards portion form their app. But that takes me right back to the regular Amtrak screen and looks for my logon again. So much for 'quality' IT tech support.


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## Ronbo (Jun 10, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> I'm still having the same problem on both my Windows 7 Pro computers. Most likely, this is the result of failure to regression test (fully prove they didn't 'break' something unrelated to the changes) some new 'enhancements' on their website. They must have broken it 'good'...even my Android cell phone has the exact same problem when I try to go to the Guest Rewards portion form their app. But that takes me right back to the regular Amtrak screen and looks for my logon again. So much for 'quality' IT tech support.



Same here still!


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## pennyk (Jun 10, 2019)

I have a Windows 7 desktop and I use Chrome. I continue to have no issues. I guess I consider myself lucky.


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## George K (Jun 10, 2019)

I would have considered it a problem on my end because I use a Mac and the Apple browser, Safari.

However, it also occurs on my iPad, and using two other browsers.

Here's the mail I tried to send via the Amtrak website for feedback:

"_Having difficulty navigating Amtrak/AGR site. Running Mac OS 10.14 and Safari browser.

Going to Amtrak.com I can log in via pop-up window. Point balance shows at top of page. Clicking on "Guest Rewards" logs me out and I get the spinning gear "loading" window. This continues indefinitely. Clicking on "Sign in" takes me back to the amtrak.com page after credentials submitted.

Clicking on "buy/transfer points" *without* signing in gives another spinning gear "loading" window. I am unable to purchase/transfer points. Clicking on "Hotels, Cars & Cruises" asks me (at the bottom of the page) to sign in. Clicking on that link does nothing. Opening that link in a new window takes me back to the "hotels, etc" page.

Things I've done:

1) Rebooted computer
2) Deleted alll cache and cookies from Amtrak Guest Rewards and Amtrak.com
3) Tried other browsers (Firefox and Chrome). Internet Explorer is not an option because a) Microsoft no longer supports it and b) not available on Mac.
4) Tried same thing on another computer with same issues (also a Mac)
5) Tried on iPad. Same issues.

Please advise as to how to proceed.

Thank you 

George K"
_​Tried to send the message, but I got into an endless loop for sending via Safari. Trying the same thing via Firefox gave an error message.

At the end of the second decade of the 21st century, you'd think that programmers could do better.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 10, 2019)

George K said:


> At the end of the second decade of the 21st century, you'd think that programmers could do better.



Programmers generally have minimal control over requirement vetting, quality assurance testing, production migration scheduling, and pass/fail decision making. If you need a scapegoat to eviscerate maybe you should start with the middle managers who authorized and approved these changes.


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## George K (Jun 11, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Programmers generally have minimal control over requirement vetting, quality assurance testing, production migration scheduling, and pass/fail decision making.


Fair enough, but deciding which changes should be made, and their scheduling is part of the middle managers' jobs. Those have nothing to do with whether a page loads or a click works. That falls on the programmers/web designers, doesn't it?

For example, a merchant wants to implement a new way that customers can buy products online. He hires a web designer to change his website. Said web designer makes new web page and says, "Okay! I'm done. See you later."

Page doesn't work. Who's responsible, the merchant or the web designer?

Am I missing something?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 11, 2019)

George K said:


> Fair enough, but deciding which changes should be made, and their scheduling is part of the middle managers' jobs. Those have nothing to do with whether a page loads or a click works. That falls on the programmers/web designers, doesn't it? For example, a merchant wants to implement a new way that customers can buy products online. He hires a web designer to change his website. Said web designer makes new web page and says, "Okay! I'm done. See you later." Page doesn't work. Who's responsible, the merchant or the web designer? Am I missing something?


I seem to be missing the part where you explain why you're equating a large corporate entity modifying densely interconnected enterprise software with a single merchant hiring a third party web designer.


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## bratkinson (Jun 11, 2019)

pennyk said:


> I have a Windows 7 desktop and I use Chrome. I continue to have no issues. I guess I consider myself lucky.



Installed Chrome. Tried AGR using Chrome. Got same infinitely spinning wheel. Removed Chrome.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 11, 2019)

Macbook Air, El Captain (OS 10)
Chrome, Ver 74.xxx
No problems


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## George K (Jun 11, 2019)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Macbook Air, El Captain (OS 10)
> Chrome, Ver 74.xxx
> No problems


Excellent. Any suggestions for me (tried again today)?

iMac, MacOS Mojave (10.14.5), Chrome....


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 11, 2019)

George K said:


> Excellent. Any suggestions for me (tried again today)?
> 
> iMac, MacOS Mojave (10.14.5), Chrome....


No idea, but I'm with DA about your focus on blaming the programmers. Being a programmer, I know that I need good, doable requirements and good QA and Line of Business testers to make sure that my applications don't go out to the users with <major> flaws. Do I makes mistakes, sure, but with good testers, most of them are caught before the application is put into production.


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## bratkinson (Jun 15, 2019)

Still no luck with the AGR website. I even gave it a 'maybe it was a Windows update that screwed things up' test. I back up my SSD with Windows and My Documents on it monthly. So I popped in last months' SSD (I have them on slide-drawers along with my bulk storage 3TB HD). Same problem. So it isn't a Windows update-related problem. That explains why my Android cell phone has the same problem on the AGR web site. Anyone else have the problem on the AGR website on the cell phones, Android or Iphone?

It's been more than a week since I started encountering the problem. I even tried to email them both from the AGR side of things as well as the Amtrak side. The emails fail as well with some kind of screwy message. I have to remember to call them next week.


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## printman2000 (Jun 15, 2019)

Are your devices using the same internet connection? Perhaps it is an issue with your router or ISP.


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## bratkinson (Jun 16, 2019)

printman2000 said:


> Are your devices using the same internet connection? Perhaps it is an issue with your router or ISP.



Fantastic idea! I hadn't considered of that. 

So, about an hour ago, I tried using my cellphone to connect and sign in to AGR while sitting in Lowes parking lot and with the Wifi turned off thereby forcing my Tracfone to use some prepaid data. I successfully got into the Amtrak app with no problem. Clicked 'Go To Amtrak Guest Rewards' and got 'failed connection due to incorrect data from website' or something like that after about a minute. Tried a couple more times and failed each time. So I turned on the Wifi and used Lowes free Wifi connection and got the same result as at home... the 'spinning wheel forever'. 

What's even MORE interesting is that I couldn't remember the verbage 'Go To Amtrak Guest Rewards' so I tried my cell phone at home...NOW I've LOST over 6,000 points from 54K to 48K since logging on at Lowes! At least my Windows computer still shows 54K points....for now.

They are definitely going to HEAR from me tomorrow since I have no other way to contact them. Now all I have to do is remain civil while talking with the poor soul whose head I'm about to take off.


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## bratkinson (Jun 17, 2019)

I called AGR earlier today. Deborah seemed friendly and interested in my problems and gave me the 'official' point and coupon totals which is reported on the Amtrak.com screen vs the -6K version on the Amtrak app on my cellphone. She said she would pass the info to their tech support staff. Hopefully, they'll get the problems fixed sooner rather than later.


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## Acela150 (Jun 17, 2019)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Macbook Air, El Captain (OS 10)
> Chrome, Ver 74.xxx
> No problems



I have the same software, just I’ve been using Safari. I’ve had on and off issues. I personally wish they would bring back the old version of AGR’s webpage.


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## bratkinson (Jun 21, 2019)

Just as an experiment today, I tried a friends' Apple laptop to see how well it did, or didn't do with the AGR website signon. Same results as I get at home.

We both have the same ISP - Charter Cable. Perhaps they've instituted some kind of popup blocker that prevents the popup from AGR? Maybe AGR did something to the account screen that Charter automatically blocks?

I refuse to let this die. Not being able to buy points, for example, with the current 'up to 50% bonus' is frustrating. Not being able to see if all my travel segments have posted is quite annoying, especially since I bought a ticket at the Joliet Amtrak station a couple weeks ago and they were struggling to get my AGR number input as my train was arriving...

Anyone here have OK access to their AGR account AND have Charter Cable?


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## Ryan (Jun 21, 2019)

No issues here, macOS Mojave (10.14.6 beta)/Safari (12.1.2).


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## slither (Jun 23, 2019)

I can get to all areas of my account when I am logged in except for My Account Overview section. Called AGR yesterday and they didn't seem to be very interested in offering help. They said it must be on our end, your about the fifth or sixth call I've had today in regards to that issue. Just try again later or tomorrow. Any ideas ?


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## bratkinson (Jun 23, 2019)

Slitherto said:


> I can get to all areas of my account when I am logged in except for My Account Overview section. Called AGR yesterday and they didn't seem to be very interested in offering help. They said it must be on our end, your about the fifth or sixth call I've had today in regards to that issue. Just try again later or tomorrow. Any ideas ?



Just for kicks, I tried yet another friends Windows 7 computer on Charter cable today. Still unable to login to AGR. I also re-tried my Android cell phone while sitting in Taco Bell in Connecticut. Same result.

And for more kicks...just now, I tried logging on from my Windows XP computer using Firefox. I haven't been online with that computer in several years. At www.Amtrak.com, Firefox report that AMTRAK was using an outdated security configuration and therefore refused to connect. Firefox then reported it needed to be updated, which I did. Again, I tried www.Amtrak.com and got the same outdated security configuration message. Chrome refused to install on XP, so I couldn't see what Chrome would do.

Hopefully, tomorrow or Tuesday, I'll get a chance to try a friends Win 7 computer but he's on Kommie Kast (Comcast - it's a long story) and if it works there, then it's a Charter Cable problem. If it doesn't work there, then it's an Amtrak Guest Rewards problem. That's what it's down to, in my opinion.

Worst case scenario - I got a 3.5 hr layover between trains in WAS on July 8th. Perhaps if I knew which door to 'stick my head in' and raise a stink would get some results. Any suggestions?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 23, 2019)

Try clearing the browser/cache on your XP/Chrome computer. It may be trying to hook up to the old amtrak.com site.


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## Aegis (Jun 24, 2019)

I have all the same issues.. Mac Mohave 10.14.5. I also tried a chrome book, nothing works.. I want to book a trip in Oc/Nov hopefully they get this fixed soon..


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## PRR 60 (Jun 24, 2019)

No problems here with Windows 10 / Chrome. Seems like it's not a global issue since only a handful of users are reporting a problem.

Have you tried doing a passward reset on amtrak.com? Use the full reset from the "Forgot password" link in the sign in popup. It is possible that some accounts had issues when the old AGR website was merged with the main Amtrak page and that there are conflicting passwords in the system. Just a thought.


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## bratkinson (Jun 24, 2019)

I just did the 'forgot password' thing. Same results. For what it's worth, I now have to have a 10 character password vs the simple 8 character with no caps and no special symbols I used to have. It'll take me a while to get the new one 'automatic'. 

And yes, I type it every time. Auto-entered passwords and 'password keepers' all have one major flaw. If someone hacks YOUR computer, they now have access to everything...bank accounts, stock accounts, pension plan, etc. No thanks. And although I keep frequent backups of the important stuff on my computer, an SSD or hard drive failure would put most users 'out of business'. The same would be true if you lost your cell phone. Not for me.


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## Ryan (Jun 25, 2019)

That actually makes you far less secure. 

Passwords are stolen server side all the time, and when you memorize and type every time, you tend to reuse passwords and the passwords are shorter and easier to crack. 

My auto generated, auto filled, 20 character gibberish passwords are unique to each site and put me at far less risk when someone’s password database is compromised. The probability of a bad actor going after your specific machine is orders of magnitude less than the certainty that your passwords have been compromised on the server side. 

A decent article on the topic: https://www.washingtonpost.com/tech...-have-security-flaw-you-should-still-use-one/


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 25, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> I just did the 'forgot password' thing. Same results. For what it's worth, I now have to have a 10 character password vs the simple 8 character with no caps and no special symbols I used to have. It'll take me a while to get the new one 'automatic'. And yes, I type it every time. Auto-entered passwords and 'password keepers' all have one major flaw. If someone hacks YOUR computer, they now have access to everything...bank accounts, stock accounts, pension plan, etc. No thanks. And although I keep frequent backups of the important stuff on my computer, an SSD or hard drive failure would put most users 'out of business'. The same would be true if you lost your cell phone. Not for me.



Data sets protected by eight and ten character passwords can be cracked in minutes when subjected to a targeted brute force attack. Which is why the IT industry changed "password" to "passphrase" around two decades ago. Online password keepers are fine for any account that won't bankrupt you if compromised. Offline password keepers are good for critical accounts. The weakest link in the security chain is the password reset email address. I could go into more detail but a culture that still can't comprehend why birthdays and Social Security Numbers should not be used as private identification probably isn't worth protecting in the first place.


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## bratkinson (Jun 25, 2019)

I agree that shorter passwords can be easily cracked. Fortunately, many web sites have a '3 strikes and you're out' mechanism. So using the 'forgot password' mechanism to ones' email requires intercepting the email to work. I did that by mistake on my Social Security account a couple years back. So I clicked 'email me',,,,etc. Unfortunately, I had changed internet providers and therefore my email address since I had previously logged on to the SS website. I ended up going to the Social Security office, proving who I was, and having them 'reset' my password to something that had to be immediately changed when I logged on at home. At least I could easily get to a human to straighten things out. Try connecting to a live person at Ebay or Paypal. Nearly impossible. Banks and credit card companies are comparatively easy to get to someone 'real', even if they're in New York City.

Yes, if my computer is hacked with some kind of keyboard monitor, they can intercept the email, and go from there. For what it's worth, my passwords vary from 8 characters to 19 characters, using a combination of scripture references and special characters. My longest passwords are for bank and credit card sites as well as ebay and Paypal. So knowing my birthday, my wife or childs' name, or even my dogs' name won't work as a basis to crack my passwords.


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## Chessie (Jun 25, 2019)

The Amtrak app is slow to update my points while the website has always been quickly up to date (knock on wood). I wonder why? Are they pulling data from different databases?


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## pennyk (Jun 25, 2019)

On Facebook, I just saw the following "solution" to the AGR issue:


> Solution to the Amtrak Guest Rewards continual "LOADING" situation.
> 
> I contacted Guest Rewards today and was able to finally make a needed correction so that my AGR would load. On my desktop with Chrome, I signed on to Amtrak.com. There should be a link at the top of the page to Guest Rewards. In Windows clicking that will bring up a drop down menu. Click PROFILE and then go to "Discounts". My preferred discount was "Senior". Change that to "ADULT". Save your profile change. And then sign out.
> 
> ...


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## bratkinson (Jun 25, 2019)

Penny, and all others having this problem. THAT'S THE SOLUTION!! Switching to 'Adult' did the trick!!! I guess being an old geezer now makes it harder to do things! Hallelujah!!!

Not knowing this is the solution, I went to my friends house today who has both Verizon DSL and Comcast Cable as his ISP. I tried his Win 7 computer and his Linux computer using Firefox and Chrome. I even brought my laptop and connected to his Wifi and tried that. All failed.

I've proven by using computers other than my own, it's not computer dependent nor router dependent. Using different browsers proved it's not browser dependent. Using different operating systems proved it isn't operating system dependent. And today, I proved it's not ISP dependent. It is strictly a 100% Amtrak IT problem! Coming up with the workaround proves it is absolutely an Amtrak IT problem.

For what it's worth, I managed to write a lengthy email to Amtrak without signing on describing all the steps I've taken. Surprisingly, it went through. So not being signed on works OK to use the 'contact us' email. When I had tried being signed on, it failed with various script-related error messages. 

THANK YOU PENNY for posting this!!!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 26, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> Fortunately, many web sites have a '3 strikes and you're out' mechanism.


Nearly every major website that has been compromised in the last decade also enjoyed a multiple failure lockout feature. There are many methods of attack and the user level front end is but one of them. Although relatively unknown at the time, modern email is based on a clear text post card style delivery process born in the 1970's when 99.99% of private communication still lived in the analog realm and cyber crime was a vague threat from a distant future. Even if every email were encrypted it wouldn't change the fact that many major email providers have been hacked repeatedly. The problem with fixing the current system is that none of it was originally designed with dependable end-to-end security in mind, so even our best and brightest solutions are still being built on hollow foundations.


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## Barb Stout (Jun 26, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> Penny, and all others having this problem. THAT'S THE SOLUTION!! Switching to 'Adult' did the trick!!! I guess being an old geezer now makes it harder to do things! Hallelujah!!!
> 
> Not knowing this is the solution, I went to my friends house today who has both Verizon DSL and Comcast Cable as his ISP. I tried his Win 7 computer and his Linux computer using Firefox and Chrome. I even brought my laptop and connected to his Wifi and tried that. All failed.
> 
> ...


OMG, this is so weird! How ever did they (and who is "they") discover that "work around"? It does seem cruelly ironic, doesn't it?


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## George K (Jun 26, 2019)

That solution just worked for me as well.

On my Mac using 1) Safari, 2) Firefox and 3) Chrome.

Thanks!


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## Ryan (Jun 26, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Nearly every major website that has been compromised in the last decade also enjoyed a multiple failure lockout feature. There are many methods of attack and the user level front end is but one of them.




This. 

The chances of someone attacking your personal system are vanishingly small, whereas the databases that store your passwords server-side (more correctly, hashes of your password that are often able to be reversed) are compromised on a routine basis.

Your best bet for security is a long, nonsensical passphrase, completely unique to every site that you visit. That's impossible to manage in the human brain, ergo the password manager.


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## bratkinson (Jun 26, 2019)

I attribute the problem to a failure of regression testing the web site after changes have been made. These days, there should be a lengthy, automated series of web site test scripts that validates whether or not everything that used to work in a specific way still works the same way after the changes/enhancements were made. The exceptions, of course, should be only what is different as a result of the enhancements. Given the major overhaul to the AGR web site (I never saw it until I could log on yesterday!), I would tend to suspect that somebody (or somebodies) failed to test with a 'senior' passenger type. Perhaps the new AGR side was simply never programed to 'expect' a 'senior' logging in resulting in an internal 'type code' failure.

I also believe the reason for the failure to perform sufficient regression testing is the overwhelming 'requirement' to 'make the implementation date no matter what' attitude that is prevalent today in all large corporations. The world today is 'get it done, get your atta-boys/girls and/or promotions, and move on'. Let the problems and software bugs be handled by the maintenance staff...aka...someone elses' budget.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 26, 2019)

Barb Stout said:


> OMG, this is so weird! How ever did they (and who is "they") discover that "work around"? It does seem cruelly ironic, doesn't it?


I don't know if this was rhetorical or not but they probably pieced it together by first duplicating the error condition and then parsing through exception flags and event logs. Or at least that's what I would probably do.



bratkinson said:


> These days, there should be a lengthy, automated series of web site test scripts that validates whether or not everything that used to work in a specific way still works the same way after the changes/enhancements were made.


Here is an interesting thought experiment. Try to envision a logical framework for a system "A" that automatically tests every function of system "B" without duplicating nearly all of system B's code and connections.


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## bratkinson (Jun 26, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Here is an interesting thought experiment. Try to envision a logical framework for a system "A" that automatically tests every function of system "B" without duplicating nearly all of system B's code and connections.



Actually, that's not as difficult as it would seem. Let's use Amtrak.com for an example using my best 'guestimates' and/or SWAGs for numbers...

For profiles, only 'Amtrak employee' (2 possible values) and 'passenger type' (5 possible values) would affect booking. Favorite boarding/destination stations are irrelevant as is name, address, etc.

For tickets, let's use 1000 station codes for easy calculations (1,000,000 station pairs, automatically created and put into a serial table), and a maximum of 50 trains per day one way on each route (NYP-WAS, for example, each train type/consist is coded in the table). Ticketing options include one way/round trip/multi city as well as price options (saver/value/flexible/business) as well as accomodations (Acela First Class/roomette/bedroom/handicap/family), each dependent upon equipment type and are also coded for each specific train # on that route.

Now, it's a simple task to build any quantity of embedded loops (DO, PERFORM, BXLE, etc) to 'spin through' all possible options for each variable. Think of it as a giant 'odometer' where each digit has anywhere from 2 to 1,000,000 possible values and as the least significant position 'rolls over', it increments the next higher position, and so on. For the historians out there, this is the principle of how Alan Turing's Enigma decoding machine functioned.

The 'guts' of the most internal 'spinning digit' would 'place' each value in the appropriate 'box' on the 'internal screen' using X & Y coordinates previously determined from each possible booking screen. When all the positions have been 'filled in', the equivalent of <enter> is simulated and the AMTRAK.COM website does whatever it is supposed to do. Each Amtrak.com screen is numbered for easy comparisons between old and new. The resultant screen would then either be saved and used by a subsequent screen 'compare' program, or else a previously 'saved' screen would be compared on the spot for differences and the differences posted on a file for review.

All of this could be specifically programmed for the progression of Amtrak booking screens. Although more difficult, it could also be programmed 'generically' and manually created tables that could be read in to describe each screen layout (field #1 at X and Y coordinate, etc) and possible values for each data box, by screen number, recorded in individual tables. Of course, the 'progression' of one screen to the next must also be put in tables that are cycled through for each iteration and following through the progression of resultant screens until 'click to book' and booking confirmation.

I know what I wrote above is all gibberish to most of those who read it. In my application programming days, I've programmed scientific 27 dimensional space problems, real time 3-D graphics, and even 10 dimensional arrays (think of X/Y/Z coordinates of items in a case of items, then cases piled up in a container X/Y/Z, and containers loaded on a ship X/Y/Z, and so on. Each specific item could be located by 9 unique coordinates), and, of course a large number of computer language and/or online and/or database translators. Using lookup and conversion tables was a way of life in my working days.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 26, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> When all the positions have been 'filled in', the equivalent of <enter> is simulated and the AMTRAK.COM website *does whatever it is supposed to do*.


Writing a program that simply spins every knob, slides every lever, and pushes every button, while monitoring every meter and gauge is indeed quite simple, if a little tedious. But how does such a program evaluate everything a system was _supposed_ to do versus what it _actually_ did? Not just in a simplified probabilistic fashion, but with dependable accuracy and precision across the full breadth of expected functionality. That's where things get interesting.


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## bratkinson (Jun 27, 2019)

Your question of how to prove the zillion pages of results is the desired & expected result is a good one. 

35 years ago, I wrote an address correction program for a Baby Bell that was hitting a 98% accuracy rate for building their marketing database from their customer master billing system data base. From the 1.5 million customers on the first states' data base, I randomly extracted about 5,000 address for my initial testing. And yes, I manually compared the 'before and after' results of all 5K addresses multiple times until I was satisfied that I had handled all 5K of them correctly. I had the luxury of writing the IMS customer database 'extract' to DB/2 marketing DB 'loading/update' system, so I had access to all the data any time I needed to. I started browsing the addresses at work and found such 'winners' as PO Street, Rural Lane, quadrant street addresses like Atlanta and Washington DC use, grid addresses such as N123W12345 Rt 144, and street names like 21W and W21. I naturally added some of those to my testbed and verified the results. I extracted perhaps 10K additional address and verified the results before I was ready to market the product to the Baby Bell for $110K, which they leased, etc. During full system testing, as well as after going into production, I periodically performed queries to effectively browse the addresses within a manually chosen 'random' ZIP code to verify all was working as intended. The number of surprises (errors) each time I did this dropped each time after I made appropriate software changes to expect oddball addresses unique to some small towns like 'Avenue A' or even 'Elm St #1' and 'Elm St #2' as two legitimate street names in one town. The #1 and #2 are NOT unit or apartment numbers! Fortunately, there weren't any apartment houses on those streets. 'Off Main' was another surprise street name that had to be dealt with, too.

Where am I leading to with this? With a potential of, say, 20 million possible city pairs and sequences of clicks, unless a full division of soldiers is available to manually check every possible result for accuracy, the only 'reasonable' solution is start with a manageable number of city pairs train numbers, passenger types and numbers of passengers. Manually prove those are working. Granted, verifying that a trip from NYP to BAL shouldn't cost $500 but should be in the $77-150 dollar range for regional trains two weeks from now, will be a very time consuming manual task. Perhaps the best solution to build the 'correct results' data base would be for a group of people to manually perform the ticketing functions and get the 'current' (ie, real Amtrak.com) results and that gets put into the data base as the 'valid' starting point. The trick would be to us the production Amtrak booking system with a separate test data base of trains, numbers of already booked passengers, etc, to be able get the various price adjustments (buckets) to show up. It would also be necessary to 'reset' the test booking data base to the same 'date and time' prior to testing, otherwise some options may be sold out, prices increased, etc.

Which brings me to variable results for the same screen input choices. Obviously, starting with a 'currently booked database' for 7/1/19 at 12:01AM and forcing the current 'clock' to that time is a requirement for test scripts with thousands of possible choices. That way, it could be 'forced' to 'keep buying' a coach seat on train <whatever> from NYP-BAL until it jumps to the next bucket price and even to a sold-out status. It's also necessary to create entered data that is invalid or unreasonable, such as trying to book tickets for a group of 500 on a single train. Each of the data field edits must be proven to be functioning correctly as well. Back in the punched card days, it was commonplace to reach into the trash can and grab a bunch of cards and run them in as 'update data' or 'billing system imput' to conclusively prove the edits were kicking out the bad data and letting good data get in. Getting back to that 'Baby Bell', some of their data field edits for the customer screen input to the billing system were as simple as 'not blank' for a persons' first, last, middle initial, address, and even city name! The address correction program found over 130 ways to spell Chicago on the IMS database! Some of the city name abbreviations and misspellings were downright hilarious! GIGO reigned! (garbage in, garbage out). When I told the VP in charge of the customer data base and billing system that I could easily do an update to correct to the IMS database, I was immediately told where to shove my idea and where I was to go in no uncertain terms. Several years later, while driving in Seattle, I passed by a 'head shop' with a bumper sticker that 'killed' me. It had a Bell System company logo and adjacent to it written: "We don't care. We don't have to!" How true it was. Sometimes I think one should be made for Amtrak and other big companies, too.

So how does one write a script for entering XYZ instead of the number of adult passengers, or entering YYZ (Toronto airport code, if memory serves) as a destination station? How does one 'force' a 'sold out' condition other than 'purchasing' some big number of tickets? I would suggest they'd have to be manually-written scripts to do this that are added to the zillion other computer generated scripts.

In short, I think it would be unreasonable to manually verify the 'initial' run of the automated testing driver program due to the millions of possibilities. However, starting with perhaps 2-3K possibilities, verifying that, then adding more possibilities say, 500 at a time and verifying that (making necessary coding adjustments as needed), would be reasonable until perhaps a 'representative sampling' of 20-50K scripts was achieved. I forget what they called the mathematical 'rule' of "if the formula works for N and N+1, then it works for N=infinity" or something like that. Of course, Amtrak ticketing isn't a linear process. It's a giant tree-branching system. Then, throw in simultaneous servers around the USA processing hundreds, if not thousands of ticketing requests per minute, all trying to 'grab' the last ticket on train 123 on the 4th, and the 'fun' gets 'verrrry eeenteresting'. But then, 'server wars' are not a part of the automated testing problems to be solved.


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