# CZ passenger injured near Truckee CA, unknown circumstances



## Karl1459 (May 22, 2018)

http://katu.com/news/local/family-seeks-answers-after-oregon-student-aaron-salazar-injured-on-amtrak-trip-denver-portland-psu

Passenger on trip from Denver to Portland, was found severely injured near Truckee California.


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## cpotisch (May 22, 2018)

I’m a little confused. Did he hop off the train at Truckee for some fresh air, and was later found unconscious near the station? Or was he stopping in Truckee anyway, and got hurt while he was there? Sorry if this is really obvious.


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## Steve4031 (May 22, 2018)

This is the link. https://www.rgj.com/story/news/2018/05/21/amtrak-mum-passengers-severe-injuries/631150002/

Looks like the guy met somebody on the train. At some point he was beaten up and found on the side of the tracks. Amtrak police is investigating. Not clear what happened.

Imho this does not look good for Amtrak. This kind of beating would be noisy. And how was he put off the train? While it was moving? Or did they get off in Truckee?


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## cpotisch (May 23, 2018)

This is really disturbing and I refuse to believe that there was no foul play. I know articles like this tend to try to paint Amtrak in a negative light, but even so, it doesn't sound like Amtrak is really trying to put the family's best interests first.


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## Karl1459 (May 23, 2018)

Another article: https://www.rgj.com/story/news/2018/05/21/amtrak-mum-passengers-severe-injuries/631150002/

Basically what is known is that

a. He was on the train.

b. Something happened.

c. He was found alongside the tracks with severe injuries.

d. The injuries suggest to me he is not able (and may never be able) to tell investigators what happened.

What the investigators are not disclosing is anything about (b). This could be because they simply do not know, or they do not want the details public to make it easier for them to validate a confession if the young man was a victim of an assault.

Any speculation is just that. Any AU types who were on that train (or know someone who was) and saw anything going on a little strange or even unusual should contact Amtrak.


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## Rail Freak (May 23, 2018)

I wonder which side of the train/ tracks he was found on? I'm guessing it was opposite the station side! (less witnesses)


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## cpotisch (May 23, 2018)

Rail Freak said:


> I wonder which side of the train/ tracks he was found on? I'm guessing it was opposite the station side! (less witnesses)


I feel like it wouldn't make much difference. They said he wasn't at the station, so 30 feet or whatever would be pretty insignificant.


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## MikefromCrete (May 23, 2018)

Everything is pure speculation at this point. The victim is unable to tell authorities what happened. You would think if there were witnesses to a brutal beating on the train that they would come forward with whatever details they know. The most obvious suspect is the "friend" this young man met in Sacramento, but that might not have anything to do with what happened on the train. Quite a mystery.


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## cpotisch (May 23, 2018)

Yeah, the "friend" part of the story sounds kind of suspicious.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Yeah, the "friend" part of the story sounds kind of suspicious.


It's pretty normal to meet a friend on a long distance train. That certainly doesn't raise any red flags to me.

Could he have missed his train in Truckee and ran after it and was dragged by the train? It sure seems like someone getting beat up and thrown from a train would be just a little hard to hide, especially right after a station stop.

Whatever happened, this is truly tragic. I feel so sorry for the family and hope they at least get some answers soon.


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## TiBike (May 23, 2018)

I don't see any statement that it wasn't in the station. But that said, it's likely it wasn't: in other words he was probably found at a point where the train would have been moving. The station is in the center of town, with lots of car and foot traffic. The train blocks a street when it stops there, and the station area is well used as a parking lot.

He would have been on 5(13). It left Reno one minute late, then was ahead of schedule the rest of the way to Emeryville.

The fact that the train was never delayed indicates that he wasn't discovered, or at least linked to the train, until well after it left Truckee. That's unlikely at that station, although I suppose anything is possible.

Truckee is a long town – runs east to west more or less following I-80 (and the tracks). So it could have happened in an out of the way place within the city limits, i.e. within the Truckee PD's nominal jurisdiction. Otherwise the RGJ reporter would have called the Placer County sheriff's office, or Truckee PD would have referred him. Truckee PD would have initially responded, so more information is probably available on the watch commander's log (or whatever they call it in Truckee). The fire department would also have records.

Getting more info might require an in person visit to Truckee – unless you've established yourself with an agency, it's often hard for a reporter to get info over the phone. I know that from a previous career – it was true even decades ago, when cops and firefighters were more talkative. Truckee isn't in the RGJ's core coverage area, so given the understaffing of newsrooms these days, it's not worth the trip.

Truckee PD (and, by extension, Amtrak PD) appears convinced that whatever caused the injuries happened on the train, so there must be some evidence beyond "we found him by the tracks". Amtrak PD says "there’s nothing to suggest criminal intent". If they're saying that and there's any evidence at all, it's an indication that they're thinking in terms of some kind of accident or misadventure. Falling or jumping off a train, even at a relatively low speed, can cause severe injuries – the kind of injuries described.

The reporter wrote it as a human interest story – it's about the family, not the incident. Thirty or forty years ago we would have called it lazy reporting, but times have changed. Reporters don't have the time to spend tracking down facts anymore. It appears this story relied on three sources: a conversation with one family member who doesn't know anything about the incident itself, a brief phone call with a Truckee PD sergeant and an email from Amtrak.

Whether or not someone else was involved in the incident, the meagre information available does not point toward a crime.


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## TiBike (May 23, 2018)

Found more info – the Truckee PD log is posted on the Interwebs (times have changed for the better in some ways too . Apparently it's posted on a weekly basis. It wouldn't have been up when the reporter wrote the story. Here's what it says:



> Case #: T1800589
> 
> Case Type: AGNCY ASST
> Location: TRUCKEE, CA
> ...


He wasn't found until almost two hours after the train left the station, and wasn't linked to the Amtrak train until some time after that. Other than happening on the UP tracks, the only location info is "Zone: 13". I can't find any definitive information about how Truckee PD defines zones, but based on several reports, it looks like Zone 13 includes the eastern half of town. Can't tell for sure. It might include downtown, so I can't draw any conclusions one way or the other.

It's difficult to imagine that he was lying at the station for two hours before being discovered. It's far more likely it was somewhere else and the train was moving when he left it, by whatever means.


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## cpotisch (May 23, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the "friend" part of the story sounds kind of suspicious.
> ...


While its pretty normal to meet a nice person on Amtrak, the circumstances here do raise a bit of a red flag for me. Aaron had said that he and the friend were going to tour Sacramento together, which seems sort of odd. I'm just saying that I can't see how this would have realistically happened by accident, and so it's worth considering someone who it seems to have had a connection with him on the train.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 23, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It's pretty normal to meet a friend on a long distance train. That certainly doesn't raise any red flags to me.


Sounds like a person of interest in any case.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Could he have missed his train in Truckee and ran after it and was dragged by the train? It sure seems like someone getting beat up and thrown from a train would be just a little hard to hide, especially right after a station stop. Whatever happened, this is truly tragic. I feel so sorry for the family and hope they at least get some answers soon.


This is the part I have trouble following. Anyone crazy enough to grab onto a moving train with nowhere to sit or stand until the next stop is suffering from acute intoxication and/or a severe lack of self-preservation. Whereas a planned sucker punch style beating/robbing/dumping doesn't seem that hard at all. It's only going to be noisy and drawn out if the attacker telegraphs his or her intentions prior to the attack.


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## cpotisch (May 23, 2018)

Yeah, I kind of doubt that the most likely scenario is that he got off in Truckee (which isn't a smoke stop), missed the train, ran after it, was able to catch up to it and hold on, and somehow couldn't realize this was a bad idea until half the bones in his body were broken.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2018)

I'm not sure what the "most likely" scenario is. It just sounds like the some of the injuries could have resulted from being dragged by a moving train. Hardly something to argue about, was just sharing my initial thoughts.

My thoughts on the "friend" are... What if the friend had reported an incident to an Amtrak employee and it was ignored or dismissed? Would eplain Amtrak being so quiet about the case.

Obviously that's pure speculation... Most likely? I guess not. But the whole incident is not "likely" to occur.


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## TiBike (May 23, 2018)

There are more stories online, but none that quote any additional primary source regarding the incident itself. A couple of stories say that he was found by a station employee, but don't say where and don't have a source for the information – one qualifies it with "reportedly". Other than what's in the RGJ article, there's no information from Truckee PD. The older story quotes what could be the same Amtrak statement. The earlier story quotes another cousin, who has a less dire (although still severe) description of Mr. Salazar's injuries.

The two later stories are more dramatic – characterising the source of injuries as a beating, without attribution other than the family – and have links to the family's GoFundMe page:

http://thisisreno.com/2018/05/amtrak-nothing-to-suggest-criminal-intent-in-case-of-man-critically-injured-in-truckee/

http://fox40.com/2018/05/22/family-says-mans-beating-in-truckee-was-a-hate-crime/

https://patch.com/california/sacramento/oregon-student-beaten-coma-left-dead-truckee

There's lots of speculation, but very little primary information available.

Edit: Duh. The Truckee station is unstaffed, although maybe there's a caretaker or volunteer about?


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 23, 2018)

If he did get worked over and tossed from the train, that would have likely taken place in the Coach-Bag vestibule as there are no witness pax on the lower level; only the baggage area and the restrooms.....


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## cpotisch (May 23, 2018)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> If he did get worked over and tossed from the train, that would have likely taken place in the Coach-Bag vestibule as there are no witness pax on the lower level; only the baggage area and the restrooms.....


Good thinking, but I'm not sure how much help that is when figuring out what happened...


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## zephyr17 (May 23, 2018)

Probably the reason Amtrak is being quiet about the case is that the matter is under active investigation by Amtrak Police.


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## cpotisch (May 23, 2018)

I've gotta say, if it's true that Amtrak aren't letting or are trying to prevent the actual police investigate, that's kind of problematic. I don't believe that there's a major conspiracy to cover up foul play, but it still does not seem appropriate to keep this investigation completely to themselves.


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## zephyr17 (May 23, 2018)

Amtrak PD are "actual police". They are an accredited agency with full police powers, they aren't just a bunch of security guard rent-a-cops, and they are the ones with jurisdiction for incidents onboard Amtrak trains in transit. My understanding is that other agencies actually do not have jurisdiction, so it is up to Amtrak PD. Unless they want to bring in the FBI, the incident having occurred on an interstate train, the FBI could come in any time they wanted to.


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## cpotisch (May 23, 2018)

zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak PD are "actual police". They are an accredited agency with full police powers, they aren't just a bunch of security guard rent-a-cops, and they are the ones with jurisdiction for incidents onboard Amtrak trains in transit. My understanding is that other agencies actually do not have jurisdiction, so it is up to Amtrak PD. Unless they want to bring in the FBI, the incident having occurred on an interstate train, the FBI could come in any time they wanted to.


Thanks for the info on that. However, wouldn't the "government police" have jurisdiction since he was found by the side of the tracks?


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## zephyr17 (May 23, 2018)

IMHO, since he was last seen as a passenger on the train and was found by the side of the tracks that train travels on, it probably still falls to Amtrak PD. However, with that said, Amtrak PD is stretched pretty thin in California (Amtrak PD probably had to come up from the Bay Area, at best from Sacramento) and I think they'd be well served to bring in the FBI into this sooner rather than later if there is the least suspicion of foul play. I do get the impression from the (very sketchy) news reports that jumping off/falling off/grabbing onto a moving train and then having to let go is a theory very much in play based on the somewhat dismissive quote from Amtrak PD. Not unreasonable, you can get badly hurt by falling off a train moving at any speed. Ballast isn't soft.

First question in my mind is was the guy seen on the ground during the stop in Truckee?


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## TiBike (May 23, 2018)

Amtrak cops are real cops with particular jurisdiction. Finely split jurisdictional lines are very common in California. For example, if a crime happens on state property, the CHP has jurisdiction, even if it's inside the city limits. Many agencies – school districts, universities, airport and port districts, parks – have their own police forces that have responsibility within their particular jurisdictions, even if contained within an incorporated city (or town – the terms are interchangeable in California).

It's very common for transit agencies to have their own, separate police jurisdiction. BART, for example, has its own internal police force. Caltrain, on the other hand, contracts with the San Mateo sheriff's office, which is why you often see San Mateo SO cars in downtown San Francisco (California cops have universal police authority – a cop anywhere in California is a cop everywhere).

Don't assume that the Truckee police aren't involved. They might be part of the investigation, but as a matter of protocol they would refer any questions to the lead agency, which would be Amtrak if they believe, as they seem to do, that the incident, whatever it was, happened on an Amtrak train or other property. Even if it ended somewhere else.


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## PVD (May 23, 2018)

An incident occurring in one jurisdiction does not normally mean that it isn't also within the purview of another. Overlaps are very common, determining who is the lead is often predetermined by agreement between agencies but not always. The laws of a particular state are important, because the ability of any Federal police to get involved with things that are state rather than Federal statutes is up to the states. The reports of the medical examiners will be extremely important, depending on their findings, there might not be any criminality.


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## Seaboard92 (May 23, 2018)

I might add as someone who has done some journalistic work in the past. Most police agencies will not comment on an open investigation because it could skew the results of the investigation.

On second note Amtrak might not want the general public to know how easy it is to open vestibule doors. I could see where that could be an issue.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 23, 2018)

Having read several other stories of Amtrak passengers being found dead or unresponsive on the side of the tracks it would seem that foul play is rarely suspected, or at least rarely investigated.


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## TiBike (May 23, 2018)

Amtrak cops have primary jurisdiction in this case. It's not a matter of federal intervention. They have the same kind of responsibility for their trains and property in California as, say, BART cops would have.

Doesn't really matter whether their authority comes from the State of California or the federal government. The City of Monterey, for example, splits jurisdiction with Navy cops (Naval Postgraduate School) and Army cops (Presidio of Monterey). They've figured out who does what where. Other federal agencies sometimes get into the act – NCIS has been known to do drug investigations and arrests in Monterey proper when someone sells something to a service member.

But on a routine basis, police agencies work it out. No one wants to do someone else's work .



PVD said:


> An incident occurring in one jurisdiction does not normally mean that it isn't also within the purview of another. Overlaps are very common, determining who is the lead is often predetermined by agreement between agencies but not always. The laws of a particular state are important, because the ability of any Federal police to get involved with things that are state rather than Federal statutes is up to the states. The reports of the medical examiners will be extremely important, depending on their findings, there might not be any criminality.


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## Skyline (May 24, 2018)

When this is thoroughly investigated, I think this will be revealed as a homophobic attack bordering on attempted murder. Happens too often when one person is "out" as gay, or makes an benign overture toward someone insecure about his own place on the Kinsey scale.


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## Asher (May 24, 2018)

In any case, it looks like a lot of passengers on that train are going to be interviewed and exactly where he was found in relation to the track should lead to the answer of this so far mystery.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 24, 2018)

Skyline said:


> *When this is thoroughly investigated,* I think this will be revealed as a homophobic attack bordering on attempted murder. Happens too often when one person is "out" as gay, or makes an benign overture toward someone insecure about his own place on the Kinsey scale.


&



anumberone said:


> In any case, it looks like a lot of passengers on that train are going to be interviewed and exactly where he was found in relation to the track* should lead to the answer of this so far mystery.*


$100 worth of internet bucks says there will be no singularly conclusive resolution to this particular event. If you're inclined to disagree I only ask that you read up on the fate of other Amtrak passengers found by the side of the tracks and ask yourself how many of those events were resolved to your genuine satisfaction.


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## Steve4031 (May 24, 2018)

If I understand correctly there are no mechanisms for alerting the crew when a superliner car door is open while the train is in motion. I suspect the engineer and fireman are focusing on the track ahead for the most part. So it would be difficult for train crews to catch something amiss.


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## Steve4031 (May 24, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> > *When this is thoroughly investigated,* I think this will be revealed as a homophobic attack bordering on attempted murder. Happens too often when one person is "out" as gay, or makes an benign overture toward someone insecure about his own place on the Kinsey scale.
> ...


Iirc a few of these incidents involved passengers who became confused, opened the door to the outside and stepped off the train. The bodies were found and investigation closed.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 24, 2018)

Steve4031 said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Skyline said:
> ...


In the majority of cases I tried to follow there was no specific evidence to corroborate confusion/delusion severe enough to explain voluntarily walking/jumping off a moving train. Nor was there any rational explanation for how a supposedly confused/deluded person managed to close the door behind them as they walked/jumped to their death. If they left the door open then why didn't anyone alert the staff? Why didn't the staff report anything to their superiors? These cases are statistically rare, which is good, but they also seem to fall into a black hole of bureaucratic indifference and low effort reasoning.


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## KmH (May 24, 2018)

Steve4031 said:


> I suspect the engineer and fireman are focusing on the track ahead for the most part.


Fireman? It was my understanding normally the engineer is the only person in the cab of Amtrak LD trains.


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## Seaboard92 (May 24, 2018)

No the superliners don't have a door indicator light and likely never will. The crew depending on the location might also not see someone with an open door from the cab. It's actually next to impossible to tell without being in a curve.

Now I believe Amfleet Is might have a door indicator light. And before anyone says they need to lock the doors. That isn't a feasible option in case of a derailment. The best thing that can be done is to keep both latches on the door shut. Which is standard policy.


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## zephyr17 (May 24, 2018)

KmH said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect the engineer and fireman are focusing on the track ahead for the most part.
> ...


Depends. If the run is over 6 hours there is an engineer and assistant engineer (aka fireman) in the cab, per union agreement.


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## TiBike (May 24, 2018)

More info from the Truckee PD's Facebook page is here:

https://www.facebook.com/truckeepolice/posts/796320660566227

It's worth reading, but the key facts according to the post are that Salazar was found by the tracks at "the far east end of Truckee" (i.e. before it arrived at the station) and "the incident originated and appeared to be entirely contained on the Amtrak train". According to the post, "Aaron never disembarked in Truckee, as he never made it to the Truckee station, and there is no information to suggest Aaron had any connection to Truckee or interactions with anyone from Truckee".

The investigation was turned over to Amtrak "after our preliminary response" and the Truckee PD is "not actively involved in the investigation". The post opens by saying:

"It is the policy and best practice of most public safety organizations to not comment on another agency’s investigation, particularly if that investigation is active. However, since much of the information that is circulating on social media and in some news stories is inaccurate, speculative, or simply false, the Truckee Police Department would like to clarify a few things".

It closes with:

"The Truckee Police Department has no control over the release of substantive information in this incident, since another agency is handling the investigation. We do ask, out of respect for Aaron, his family, and for the investigative process that speculation, guessing, or rumors not be the basis for drawing conclusions", and refers further questions to Amtrak's police.

The timing is interesting. The post reiterates what the log stated, that the Truckee PD responded at about 11:30am, but then says "it was almost immediately discovered that Aaron was a ticketed passenger on the west bound Amtrak train that had passed through Truckee earlier that morning". 5(13) left Colfax on time at 11:48, and then was approx. 40 minutes early (give or take) the rest of the way to Emeryville.

It doesn't seem as if Amtrak PD treated it as a crime scene.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2018)

reading the statements by the family on that Facebook page makes me sick. Amtrak police is telling the family it was a suicide attempt?

We (me included) are whining about boxed meals, meanwhile Passengers are being raped and beaten on Amtrak trains and Amtrak always says it's not their fault.


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## tricia (May 25, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> reading the statements by the family on that Facebook page makes me sick. Amtrak police is telling the family it was a suicide attempt?
> 
> We (me included) are whining about boxed meals, meanwhile Passengers are being raped and beaten on Amtrak trains and Amtrak always says it's not their fault.


Thanks for posting this. While reading this thread, I too have been thinking about other incidents, particularly the case of rape on the EB discussed here.


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## Steve4031 (May 25, 2018)

The news story I read mentioned burn marks on the legs. How do you get that jumping off a moving train?


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## KmH (May 25, 2018)

One of the linked to news articles noted Aaron's family said the burns (severe) are on the insides of his thighs.

From what I have read I think he was assaulted on the train by his new "friend", rendered unconscious, and then thrown off the train by his assailant.

Did the 5 (13) have a coach/bag car in the consist?

If so the baggage area would be a place Aaron could have been assaulted.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2018)

I don't think the zephyr typically operates with a coach / baggage.

The friend adds an interesting twist, but I still fail to make the direct connection to the friend being the attacker. That's certainly a possibility, but the friend could have also reported the guy missing and be ignored by Amtrak personell, and that would be another reason everything is so hush hush. This is a very troubling case, and it looks like it's all happened before, on the same route years ago.(Robin Putnmam case).


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## Trogdor (May 25, 2018)

Just as a point of clarification, as the question has come up: Even if the Zephyr isn't scheduled to use a coach/baggage car, such a car can often be found in a train's consist to provide the needed coach capacity, either as an added car or as a substitute for a regular coach if one of the latter is not available.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2018)

It's also normal for the door to the coach portion of a lower level car to be closed. That blocks off a lot of noise and vision for the few coach passengers riding in that section.

Of course we can't rule out that this happened in an employee only area of the train.


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## TiBike (May 25, 2018)

The only information about the "burns" on his legs comes from the family. The family's initial statement described it as "a mysterious rash or burn". It later became "severe burns". Friction burns from hanging onto something? Something completely unrelated to the incident? Something that's nothing but has grown in the telling?



Steve4031 said:


> The news story I read mentioned burn marks on the legs. How do you get that jumping off a moving train?


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## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2018)

Oregon members of congress are getting involved. Guess they see the potential of "criminal intent" that Amtrak PD seems to be incapable of thinking of.

https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2018/05/25/20099100/oregon-members-of-congress-demand-investigation-into-attack-of-gay-psu-student


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## KmH (May 25, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I don't think the zephyr typically operates with a coach / baggage.


If you go to AU member Agent's YouTube channel (he is A. train there) you will see the CZ often has a coach/bag in it's consist.

Agent shoots video of the CZ almost daily.

Whatever happened, in the news Amtrak PD is looking less than competent.


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## cpotisch (May 25, 2018)

KmH said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the zephyr typically operates with a coach / baggage.
> ...


Great channel, BTW. Here's the link to all his CZ catches. Almost all of them have a coach baggage.


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## lthanlon (May 26, 2018)

Here's some coverage that also lists other incidents: *Amtrak gay mystery deepens as more deaths, injuries revealed*.


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## Rail Freak (May 26, 2018)

lthanlon said:


> Here's some coverage that also lists other incidents: *Amtrak gay mystery deepens as more deaths, injuries revealed*.


WOW!!!


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## Steve4031 (May 26, 2018)

Makes me wonder if an employee is a serial killer . . .


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## Rail Freak (May 26, 2018)

Steve4031 said:


> Makes me wonder if an employee is a serial killer . . .


That thought crossed my mind, too! That theory should be easy to check out! I hate to say it, but I wouldn't have thought an employee would be charged with rape, either! I'm not in Law Enforcement, so I'll shut up!!!


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## Steve4031 (May 26, 2018)

If Amtrak kept records of who was working those trains it is easy to check. Of course I’m sure law enforcement does not need any help with this.


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## chrsjrcj (May 26, 2018)

One of those cases, a victim got off the train with another woman before his stop. This might be a case of correlation does not mean causation.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 26, 2018)

chrsjrcj said:


> One of those cases, a victim got off the train with another woman before his stop. This might be a case of correlation does not mean causation.


The case where he got off in Salt Lake City? That was the official story until his remains were found by the side of the tracks BEFORE Salt Lake City. Read about it. Another young male, traveling alone, going home to visit family on the same route.


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## spinnaker (May 26, 2018)

How is it possible for a rape and/or assault to occur on a train without a dozen or more people hearing it?


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## chrsjrcj (May 26, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> > One of those cases, a victim got off the train with another woman before his stop. This might be a case of correlation does not mean causation.
> ...


I actually read it from a different news site, but rereading shows I misread it. The CZ cases are concerning. I do wonder how its possible considering all the eyes in coach and the thin walls in the sleeper, but the rape case shows it unfortunately has happened.

I suppose the important lesson here is dont trust people you meet on the train and lock your compartment doors. I wish Amtrak would be more open with these cases too.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 26, 2018)

spinnaker said:


> How is it possible for a rape and/or assault to occur on a train without a dozen or more people hearing it?


I can't tell if you're being serious or sheltered. If you really want an answer there are any number of true crime books, documentaries, podcasts, interrogation transcripts, forensic reports, and case studies that can answer those sorts of questions in excruciating detail.


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## spinnaker (May 27, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> spinnaker said:
> 
> 
> > How is it possible for a rape and/or assault to occur on a train without a dozen or more people hearing it?
> ...


A snarky answer, like your, typically means you are just as clueless.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 27, 2018)

spinnaker said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > spinnaker said:
> ...


Do you really believe every rape and assault involves so much shouting/screaming/noise that it couldn't possible be drowned out by a closed door and/or the sounds of a moving train or immediately silenced with the threat of increasing violence or murder? Do you struggle with the concept of a sneak attack on an unsuspecting target from a previously friendly attacker in a seemingly safe place based on careful planning and deliberate premeditation? I had a friend who was shot and murdered in her own apartment. Nobody called or notified anyone when it happened and when police interviewed her neighbors they all said they didn't see or hear anything. It turns out this is actually very common. People are attacked and murdered in seemingly safe areas and yet nobody around them notices anything obvious enough to investigate or call for help. Average people don't automatically assume a violent criminal is afoot the moment they see or hear anything unusual. Even something as loud and jarring as a gunshot can be missed in the din of everyday life or written off as something else. If an odd or unusual sound didn't mean much to you when it happened chances are good you probably won't report it or even remember it if you happen to be questioned about it later.


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## Asher (May 27, 2018)

The Denver CZ connection in more than one case makes it interesting and far more complicated than I originally imagined. The other incidents also seem to be related. I'm curious about " no open doors " who or what is closing them.


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## KmH (May 27, 2018)

Steve4031 said:


> If Amtrak kept records of who was working those trains it is easy to check. Of course I’m sure law enforcement does not need any help with this.


Law enforcement is not very good at identifying and catching killers that aren't related to the victim.

They need all the help they can get.

When they do solve murder cases that don't involve relatives, the killer often unwittingly provides the help law enforcement needed to solve the case.


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## TiBike (May 27, 2018)

The Reno Gazette Journal has an update, with a statement from Amtrak, which is quoted below:

https://www.rgj.com/story/news/2018/05/25/injured-amtrak-passenger-making-progress-recovery/646894002/

Salazar's condition seems to be improving.

Amtrak didn't post the statement on its media page, which is mostly (all?) marketing hype. Per the RGJ, "Amtrak released a statement Saturday morning with additional details about their investigation":



> We are deeply saddened by the significant injuries to one of our customers, Aaron Salazar on Tuesday, May 15. The Amtrak Police Department is conducting an ongoing investigation into this incident.
> 
> Here are the facts that we are able to share at this time:
> 
> ...


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## Steve4031 (May 27, 2018)

KmH said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > If Amtrak kept records of who was working those trains it is easy to check. Of course I’m sure law enforcement does not need any help with this.
> ...


Since these cases are in vastly different jurisdictions the FBI is the best option imho. Iirc local law enforcement would have to call in the fbi. Or in this case the Amtrak police department would have to make that decision.

Maybe the politicians in Oregon can put pressure on Amtrak to get this to happen.

Once the FBI is involved they can look at the cases and cross reference the evidence from the different cases to look for patterns. Assuming Amtrak keeps records of who worked on each train that far back, the fbi could see if a person with the same name was on each of those trains.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 28, 2018)

An interesting thought...

How close was Aaron found to the river? The other CZ case, with so many similarities, the body was found during a drought.

If the intent was for Aaron to end up in the river, it would need to be planned out by someone quite familiar with the route. Same for the other case. (I suppose someone could look ahead on Google images...)

There's so much disturbing information about these 2 cases... And the fact they both happened on the same route is more than a bit alarming.


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## zephyr17 (May 28, 2018)

I'm with Steve on this. Bring in the FBI.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 29, 2018)

http://www.losangelesblade.com/2018/05/29/amtrak-police-chief-suggests-salazar-tried-to-commit-suicide/

Who actually beleives this?


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## MikefromCrete (May 29, 2018)

Makes more sense than Amtrak-employee-serial killer theory.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 30, 2018)

MikefromCrete said:


> Makes more sense than Amtrak-employee-serial killer theory.


Just because a given explanation is easier to accept doesn't necessarily mean it's any more accurate. Once upon a time random police officers intentionally beating and killing unarmed suspects seemed nonsensical. Until a growing wave of video evidence eventually proved otherwise. My primary concern at this stage in the process is the conflict of interest whereby Amtrak's own police force might feel undue loyalty to their employer along with an obligation to limit the scope of the investigation and/or reach a liability deflecting conclusion. It seems like a moral and ethical impediment to the realization of true justice.


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## cpotisch (May 30, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> http://www.losangelesblade.com/2018/05/29/amtrak-police-chief-suggests-salazar-tried-to-commit-suicide/
> 
> Who actually beleives this?


It's disgusting.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 5, 2018)

Latest update on the families gofund me page shows continual improvement and he's opened his eyes and shows some basic responses. Continue to keep them all in your thoughts and prayers. I can't imagine having to deal with this type of situation.


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## me_little_me (Jun 7, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Makes more sense than Amtrak-employee-serial killer theory.
> ...


Where have you been all your life? Even 50+ years ago when I was in college, police were known to shoot people then plant a gun on them to justify it. As to beatings, even then people wondered why the concept of police brutality to make someone confess or to enforce "street justice" (easier than arresting and prosecuting repeated offenders was in fact fading away as compared to the "old days". It's only news now because everyone has a camera on their phone and security cameras are ubiquitous as well as the fact that the courts, the D.A., the towns, and even the police, are trying to be more open.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 4, 2018)

An update from the families gofund me page... Aaron is still unconscious but was able to chew and swallow an ice chip.

The family is trying to get the FBI involved.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 17, 2018)

An additional update from the families GoFund me.. Aaron is now talking and recognizes family members. He doesn't remember anything about the train, which doctors say is normal in this type of traumatic situation.

This guy surviving is a miracle as far as I'm concerned. His family sounds amazing and supportive.


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## Rail Freak (Sep 17, 2018)

I sure hope his memory will eventually come back!!!


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## OBS (Sep 17, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> An additional update from the families GoFund me.. Aaron is now talking and recognizes family members. He doesn't remember anything about the train, which doctors say is normal in this type of traumatic situation.
> 
> This guy surviving is a miracle as far as I'm concerned. His family sounds amazing and supportive.


Thanks for the update.


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## cpotisch (Sep 17, 2018)

Fingers crossed for him.


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## chakk (Sep 18, 2018)

Rail Freak said:


> I sure hope his memory will eventually come back!!!


I think there is a good possibility the memory will never come back. My wife experienced a shoulder seperation and a concussion in a skiing collision more than 25 years ago and still has no recollection of how it happened.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 18, 2018)

chakk said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > I sure hope his memory will eventually come back!!!
> ...


I once had an accident resulting in unconsciousness followed by amnesia. At first I couldn't remember anything from the prior month. Over time I began to recover more and more memories but it took a few months before I could remember the accident itself. I'm not sure how memories work at the physical level, and I'd imagine the prognosis varies greatly depending on severity, but I guess in some cases the brain can find new paths to older storage.


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## PVD (Sep 18, 2018)

Those scenarios (anecdotally) illustrate the difficulty with these types of cases. No 2 are alike, and it is extremely difficult to predict long term outcomes.


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## Karl1459 (Dec 9, 2018)

Update from a Sacramento TV station... The person (victim) is awake and able to communicate, claims he would never have jumped though has little memory of the incident.

Amazing recovery so far from the injuries, I hope he continues to improve.

https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/12/07/23-year-old-hurt-amtrak-speaks/


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## TiBike (Feb 5, 2019)

A story from November, with an updated statement from Amtrak added last week, is here:

https://thisisreno.com/2018/11/aaron-salazar-i-did-not-jump-from-the-train-watch-video/

There's a little more in this story:

https://www.kunr.org/post/amtrak-passenger-injury-truckee-remains-mysterious

Salazar's family says that Amtrak PD hasn't talking with him since he began talking, and the Amtrak statement can easily be inferred as confirming it.


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## JRR (Feb 6, 2019)

It is very possible that he will never remember exactly what happened. I apparently fell off the back steps when I was in the 4th grade and landed on the asphalt of our driveway shortly before my Dad got home around 5:15 pm when he found me lying there unconscious. My parents took me to the hospital where I was diagnosed with a concussion but no fractures. Since my Dad was a doctor and my Mom a nurse, I was released in there care and they brought me home. I regained consciousness around 11:30 pm that night as my Dad was carrying me up the back stairs.

To this day, I can only remember opening the door to the screened it porch and then awakening in my Dad's arms, and nothing about falling.

I am told that my experience is typical.


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## cpotisch (Feb 6, 2019)

JRR said:


> It is very possible that he will never remember exactly what happened. I apparently fell off the back steps when I was in the 4th grade and landed on the asphalt of our driveway shortly before my Dad got home around 5:15 pm when he found me lying there unconscious. My parents took me to the hospital where I was diagnosed with a concussion but no fractures. Since my Dad was a doctor and my Mom a nurse, I was released in there care and they brought me home. I regained consciousness around 11:30 pm that night as my Dad was carrying me up the back stairs.
> 
> To this day, I can only remember opening the door to the screened it porch and then awakening in my Dad's arms, and nothing about falling.
> 
> I am told that my experience is typical.




My dad told me a pretty horrifying (and true) story about a friend in college, who had an enlarged/infected spleen that completely burst upon impact while she was playing football. All she remembers is being pushed by another player and then suddenly waking up in the hospital post-emergency surgery. Pretty creepy.  :unsure:


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 30, 2019)

It’s been over a year and it’s being reported that Aaron is learning to walk again with a walker. Truly a miracle he has survived.


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