# Shooting at Dallas Union Station, Texas Eagle involved



## RobertB (Dec 5, 2011)

There's a breaking story going on at Union Station in Dallas. The train platform is closed, and the Texas Eagle (can't tell which direction) is not going anywhere. Apparently, an off-duty police officer was shot in the hand... the alleged assailant was shot by someone with much better aim, and is dead.

Here's a link to the Dallas Morning News blog with the latest posts. The newspaper's headquarters is across the plaza from Union Station:

http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/12/breaking-news-possible-shootin.html

Live video is available (though I haven't looked at it, at work) from TV station WFAA Ch 8, which is also next door to Union Station:

http://www.wfaa.com/

(Sorry I haven't been back to this board in a while... had a great honeymoon trip on Amtrak in October thanks to suggestions from y'all!)


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 5, 2011)

Yikes. I guess 2011 still isn't quite done crapping on Amtrak. Hope they managed to get the right guy and that everyone else is safe. Would be nice if Amtrak could have some positive news once in a while.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 5, 2011)

Would appear to be the N/B Eagle based on this service disruption:

http://72.148.42.113:8080/scripts/archivefinder.pl?seltrain=22&selyear=2011&selmonth=12&selday=05


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## RobertB (Dec 5, 2011)

The dallasnews.com blog was just updated to note that it's indeed the northbound train. They said, "The Amtrak train was scheduled to leave Dallas at 3:40 p.m., bound for Chicago. The shooting call came in at 3:48 p.m."

So, if the train was *due* at 3:40 and the call came at 3:48, then the call came at least a half hour before the train *arrived*, right? 

Union Station is open for local rail service again, but no word on the Amtrak train.


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## The Chief (Dec 5, 2011)

17:06 CST EB *Eagle* still sitting in station.

UnPac freight sitting.

DART light rail now running.

Local TV reports altercation on Eagle from "argument about a seat."

Three people shot, one dead, DPD officer wounded in hand.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 5, 2011)

KDFW just posted a pic and the shooting took place in one of the Coaches based on the activity at the vestibule.


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## Texan Eagle (Dec 5, 2011)

The Chief said:


> Local TV reports altercation on Eagle from "argument about a seat."
> 
> Three people shot, one dead, DPD officer wounded in hand.


Where is that guy who was suggesting passengers on Amtrak trains should be allowed to carry weapons?


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

WOW! A Shoot Out on the Eagle over a Seat, guess the Full Trains are becoming a problem! :wacko: Be interesting to see all the details once the FULL story comes out, three persons shot sounds pretty Serious if the problem was over a Seat on the Train  , hope someone in the Dallas Area will keep us posted!

UPDATE: Googling up this story reveals (It's FOX Local Station) that one is dead (the shooter), two slightly wounded (Undercover DPD Narcotics Detective and an "Innocent Bystander"!) There is supposedly a Bus bridge to the next DART/TRE Station and #22 is still sitting there as Passengers that were witnesses are being questioned by DPD!


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## leemell (Dec 5, 2011)

Texan Eagle said:


> The Chief said:
> 
> 
> > Local TV reports altercation on Eagle from "argument about a seat."
> ...


Based on your implication it would be important to know who did what to whom and when. With the very limited information available here, I could come up scenarios to point the finger at anyone involved. Patience is called for.


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## Donctor (Dec 5, 2011)

I knew the Eagle was going to lose it and shoot somebody one of these days.


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## George Harris (Dec 5, 2011)

Texan Eagle said:


> The Chief said:
> 
> 
> > Local TV reports altercation on Eagle from "argument about a seat."
> ...


Still here. Still think it is right. (and a right.)


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## afigg (Dec 5, 2011)

leemell said:


> Based on your implication it would be important to know who did what to whom and when. With the very limited information available here, I could come up scenarios to point the finger at anyone involved. Patience is called for.


Yes, how about people cool it on the political and social commentary postings until more is known about the shooting incident. The first news reports often contain incorrect information. Can take a day or two - or even longer - to get more reliable reports on what happened.


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## SP&S (Dec 5, 2011)

Thank God they weren't giving away a $2 waffle iron with every seat! What is this country coming to? :help:


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## George Harris (Dec 5, 2011)

From www.the33tv.com



> This story will be updated as details become available. Charles Bassett will have the full story @ 9 on CW33 News.


Let's see what they have to say and then do the analysis adn second guessing..


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## The Chief (Dec 5, 2011)

Update 18:15 TV interview ABC 8 Dallas PD Deputy Chief Randy Blankenbaker:

"Three plainclothes narcotics officers were conducting an inspection on Amtrak train at UnSta. They approached a suspicious male. This suspect was in possession of a handgun. A confrontation occurred that resulted in shots being fired.

Suspect died at scene."

Developing,,,

---------

Update 6 o'clock from FOX 4 News reporter at Dallas Union Station:

Undercover narcotics officers "recently have been working Union Station." They "engaged man in station," and "followed him back onto the *Amtrak* train." That's where the shooting started.

Innocent bystander hit in shoulder (apparently a PAX). Three officers involved in shooting, one was shot in hand. Both taken to Baylor Hospital. Brother of PAX who was shot in shoulder gave brief interview. This guy, in his 20s, said he was sitting in *SSL*, then headed to his room (he said "cabin," interestingly) when he heard his bro had been shot.

No mention of earlier "seat argument" report, which was from NBC 5 reporter.

Developing,,,

Oh, and we had snow west of Fort Worth this morning,,,


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## RobertB (Dec 5, 2011)

The latest (5:13pm) [Edit: maybe not so latest] from WFAA is that it was an undercover drug bust -- ON the train -- gone bad. The report still says that the cop who was shot in the hand was an off-duty Dallas police officer. And apparently both of the other shooting victims were suspects: one with non-life-threatening injuries, and one whose life is technically no longer under threat -- because it has already ended, quite abruptly. At least one other non-injured person was led off the train in handcuffs.

Here's a quote from one passenger:



> Witnesses at the scene said the incident came out of nowhere.
> "I was looking down at my phone and all of the sudden I heard, 'Get off me; get off me,' and then 'pop, pop, pop, pop," one witness said. "I hit the ground and then ran off the train."


Apropos of nothing, it appears that the only guns used in the incident belonged to a bad guy and a cop. And I can't really figure out how adding several more well-armed individuals would have helped the situation. I can, however, see several scenarios where an undercover cop (remember, he would look like a "bad guy") gets caught in the crossfire.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 5, 2011)

Now this makes you wonder, and again it is early in the story, if the perps were pax or intended pax on the _*Eagle*_ or simply fled to there when the bust started to go down.....


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## saxman (Dec 5, 2011)

Wow, I know those guys that are at Union Station doing the occasional drug bust. I was planning on heading down there tomorrow. Guess I missed it by a day.


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## Anderson (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm suspecting that they were intended passengers. First of all, there have been enough cases where something "interesting" happened on a train and law enforcement had to be involved (either ICE or otherwise). Second, there's the fact that they followed him back onto the train (I'll assume that "back onto the train" could be in error and that he hadn't been on there). If the suspect was fleeing towards the train, I'm left wondering why things were allowed to get _to_ the train unless things started near it. The platform area at Dallas Union Station is pretty open from what I call (the DART/TRE tracks are between the Amtrak tracks and the station), so I'd have thought they would've tried to stop things before they got onboard. The best argument against this is a crowded platform...but I'm not sure that a crowded train is better in _any_ way, shape, or form.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 5, 2011)

heres the full passenger quote from KDAF CW33 news station



> "There was a crowd of people at the front of the car and there was a black dude sitting in his seat and these white dudes were like just b.s.-ing with him like, 'Hey, can we sit by you. The car's starting to fill up,' and this, that and the other. I looked down at my phone and all of a sudden I hear, 'Get off me! Get off me!' then pop, pop, pop and I hit the ground," one witness said.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 5, 2011)

WFAA now reports the _*Eagle*_ won't depart until sometime after 9 and Amtrak has hired buses for pax who do not want to wait.


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## George Harris (Dec 5, 2011)

Try this one from teh Dallas Morning News for what seems to be somewhat better information:

www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20111205-one-killed-in-union-station-shooting-dallas-police-officer-one-of-two-injured.ece



> Three plainclothes narcotics officers were conducting a routine inspection on the train, which was bound for Chicago, when they spotted a "suspicious male" about 4 p.m., Dallas Police Deputy Chief Randy Blankenbaker said.
> "This suspect was in possession of a handgun and a confrontation occurred that resulted in shots being fired," Blankenbaker said
> 
> . . . .
> ...


Several Dallas stations are saying they will have updates later tonight.


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## sechs (Dec 5, 2011)

Donctor said:


> I knew the Eagle was going to lose it and shoot somebody one of these days.


Usually, you hear about trains hitting people. Now they're wielding real weapons!


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## The Chief (Dec 5, 2011)

Update 10 o'clock news

WFAA ABC Ch 8 reports Amtrak rented three buses to move some PAX, and "the even flew some people on to Chicago."

TV station also reported "Amtrak's Top Cop" was in Dallas at a meeting. He came to Union Station and met with some PAX and handed some his biz card.

((That probably would be John O'Connor, Amtrak VP/Chief of Police.)) No. 22 EB *Eagle* departed at 9:27 p.m.

PAX eyewitness reports indicate rounds struck *Superliner* interior, including one seatback.

Stephen Malone Jr., 32, of Waterford, Mich, named as decedent by Dallas County Medical Examiner.

This was lead story on two of four network local channels tonight at 10. Other two channels led with weather (North Texas snow and freeze), and then the Amtrak shooting story.


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## sitzplatz17 (Dec 5, 2011)

Lucky me, I was on the Eagle the day before.

Interestingly we had quite a few issues with people smoking "cigarettes of a non legal nature" on our run.Maybe the problems we had prompted the cops to get more involved.


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## afigg (Dec 6, 2011)

The Chief said:


> This was lead story on two of four network local channels tonight at 10. Other two channels led with weather (North Texas snow and freeze), and then the Amtrak shooting story.


From a PR viewpoint, the good news is there is a lot of free publicity for the Texas Eagle in Dallas and Fort Worth. The bad news is that people on the train were shot. Not the sort of positive press coverage you want.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Dec 6, 2011)

RobertB said:


> And I can't really figure out how adding several more well-armed individuals would have helped the situation. I can, however, see several scenarios where an undercover cop (remember, he would look like a "bad guy") gets caught in the crossfire.


I can never understand it either, that is always assumed that any well-armed by-standers would instantly know who are the "bad" guys and who are the "good" guys (that includes all other well-armed by-standers), and when the discharge their weapon they always hit their target (and only their target) 100% of the time. I guess these are the people who only have to buy one bullseye target in their life time, since every bullet at the target range always goes thru the same hole in the dead center.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 6, 2011)

Bought a copy of the 'Dallas Morning News' this morning.

Had a picture with this caption

[ Dallas police take an unidentifed woman into custody who was shouting, "I'm not a criminal! I'm not a criminal! My Husband is dead! He's dead! After a shooting at Union Station. ]

The story also states that Amtrak Chief of Police John J. O'Connor happened to be in Dallas on a business and responded to the shooting. However he was unavailable for comment.


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## Montanan (Dec 6, 2011)

So does anyone know when the train was finally able to leave town?


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 6, 2011)

Montanan said:


> So does anyone know when the train was finally able to leave town?


9:27 PM Monday


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## Big Iron (Dec 6, 2011)

afigg said:


> The Chief said:
> 
> 
> > This was lead story on two of four network local channels tonight at 10. Other two channels led with weather (North Texas snow and freeze), and then the Amtrak shooting story.
> ...


I wonder how many vouchers you get for being shot?


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## afigg (Dec 6, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Montanan said:
> 
> 
> > So does anyone know when the train was finally able to leave town?
> ...


The Amtrak Status Map table for the 22(5) shows that it was down 5:47 leaving Dallas, but made up time getting into Chicago 3:27 late. Did they unload everyone from the train or were people still on board as the TE completed its run?


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## guest (Dec 6, 2011)

afigg said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > Montanan said:
> ...


maybe there's a better word than "unload" in this case! :giggle:


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 6, 2011)

Big Iron said:


> I wonder how many vouchers you get for being shot?


I wonder what the maximum value of a single voucher is?


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 6, 2011)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> RobertB said:
> 
> 
> > And I can't really figure out how adding several more well-armed individuals would have helped the situation. I can, however, see several scenarios where an undercover cop (remember, he would look like a "bad guy") gets caught in the crossfire.
> ...


I LOVE educating the uneducated masses. YOU assume all that you stated. We (legal permit holders) don't assume any of what you stated. See my posts under TSA and maybe you'll get it. In all the statistics I quoted, 99% of all discharges of weapons carried by LEGAL permit holders are one and one with normally few people around. VERY rarely does a LEGAL permit holder get in a shooting match when there is MORE than one shooter and innocent people around. Why ?

1. The police officer might not know you are a "good guy".

2. The "bad" guy might have an automatic weapon. I am not NORMALLY allowed to possess an automatic weapon, but of course YOU already knew that didn't you. I didn't think so.

3. I could kill an innocent bystander.

4. The police officer doesn't even know "instantly" who the bad guys or good guys are. How the hell would I know instantly.

5. Usually permit holders have taken classes (Tactical Defense) or other classes and learned how to assess situations prior to them occurring. We learn color awareness coding (Before TSA ever discovered it) Green, Yellow, Orange and Red.

6. I am Green in my house, doors locked, weapons accessible.

7. I am Yellow anytime, anywhere I am outside.

8. I am Orange anytime I am anywhere near a male 16-55 (color doesn't matter in case you think we profile) who is within 75-100 yards of me, doesn't look like he belongs or possesses the traits in item 11.

9. I am Red(weapon in my hand) when I know my/wife's life is in imminent danger or I have been threatened with my life.

10. We are taught that when shots are fired 99.9% percent of the people run or hit the ground. Who does that leave ? Two or more bad guys shooting at each other OR a police officer/s and one or more bad guys. You only shoot when you know the LEO is in imminent danger of being killed. Let them take the actions they are TRAINED to perform. We permit holders are NOT cowboys from the wild west. We want to live just like you do.

11. We are taught the eye movements, clothing, mannerisms, body movements, tactics and personality traits of potential bad guys.

12. We are trained to shoot if we have a clear shot to take someone down who is about to kill a police officer or bystander.

13. Last but not least, DO NOT believe what you read in the press or hear on TV( including FOX) They are the most incredibly stupid and uninformed people in America when it comes to weapons, self defense and weapons training.

If you are ever to visit Las Vegas know that there are trained LEGAL permit holders there to assist you in living to return home to your loved ones.

NAVYBLUE


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## The Davy Crockett (Dec 6, 2011)

NAVYBLUE said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > RobertB said:
> ...


And I can easily see the cops 'shooting to kill' the 'well-armed bystander' in the confusion. Police do not 'train' for situations where a well armed 'citizen' starts assisting them from 'out of the blue' and there is a very good chance that they would fire at anyone who is not a police officer that starts shooting in such a tense and bloody scenario. These situations really do need to be left in the control of profeesionals. Turning such an incident into the 'wild west' will only end up killing more innocent people almost every time.


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 6, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> > Cho Cho Charlie said:
> ...


Can I get an Amen brother ?

NAVYBLUE


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## sechs (Dec 6, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how many vouchers you get for being shot?
> ...


For a courtesy voucher, at last check, it was $500. In the past, when I was getting more than $500 for a problem with a trip, I got multiple.


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## The Chief (Dec 7, 2011)

On tonight's 10 o'clock news in interviews Dallas Police Chief David Brown admitted that slain suspect most likely _did not_ even discharge his weapon.

That means, pending any conclusive ballistics tests, all GSWs were fired by Dallas cops.

Chief also noted the officers "followed the suspect" to the train to check him out, rather than in the station, which the chief repeatedly referred to as "the lobby." Brown said the train was a "safer place to confront the suspect" than in "the lobby." “We could have had a running gun battle in a lobby, he said. "The officers, in my opinion, approached this gentleman in the best way possible.”

That makes sense. Confront suspect in confined stainless steel tubular box full of passengers, add three plainsclothes cops, at least four weapons, and see what happens. In a "lobby" (_i.e._ station) like Dallas Union Station, people could at least flee. I think DPD screwed the pooch on this one.

Wonder if Amtrak's "top cop" John O'Connor, Amtrak VP/Chief of Police, in Dallas for a meeting, may raise some hell with locals boarding his train and creating what turned out to be quite a cluster and safety hazard.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 7, 2011)

George Harris said:


> Sorry, Mr. Sunset, but you have completely gone from logic to ridicule with this little rant. Does that mean you have no further logic to bring to the discussion?


It's a reference to a series of oddball books and the internal narrative they become part of in a movie called _Fight Club_. I posted it because that's honestly what entered my mind as I was reading Mr. Blue's manifesto. I suppose it's his prerogative if he'd rather spend his time here pushing some sort of hardline gun policy agenda than to discuss the finer points of passenger rail, but if I lose interest in his lecturing and poke some fun at the ludicrous nature of it all then that's my prerogative as well. You'd hope a man with easy access to guns and ammo would have a calm attitude and constructive temperament, but something about Mr. Blue makes me wonder.


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 7, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, Mr. Sunset, but you have completely gone from logic to ridicule with this little rant. Does that mean you have no further logic to bring to the discussion?
> ...


OK kiddies here we go. Here's what was said by out illustrious Mr. T.S. to get the ball rolling"

Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:52 PM

https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=333250George Harris, on 05 December 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=333049Texan Eagle, on 04 December 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=333048dlagrua, on 04 December 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

Citizens with carry permits should also be allowed to keep their pistols on their person instead of checking them in their luggage. Would a terorist be able to do anything bad if he knew that many people aboard every train were armed?

Are you suggesting these people should also be allowed to use their weapons in case of a perceived threat of terror? If no, it is not going to deter a potential terrorist because he/she knows that although there are a bunch of people carrying guns onboard, none of them is allowed to use it on him/her. On the other hand, if there are going to be a bunch of people onboard the train who have the permission to use their weapons on a perceived threat, sorry, I am not traveling on Amtrak anymore. Can't say when one of them will think I am a potential terrorist and might cause harm to me. Sorry, bad idea.

Yes. Why should they not?


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 7, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, Mr. Sunset, but you have completely gone from logic to ridicule with this little rant. Does that mean you have no further logic to bring to the discussion?
> ...


Mr T.S. reply:

Why not simply replace our constitution with a decree of mob justice then?

If equipping just about anyone with guns made everyone safer then Texas would be one of the safest places on Earth.

Unfortunately that's just not how it works out in the end.

Here in gun-friendly Texas we've had multiple shootings and hostage takings where the "good guys" had plenty of guns on them.

So why has this not become a major deterrent? Why are so few people saved by these good guys?

In general it's because the gun fanatics had no training on handling sudden violence beyond how to fire their weapon.

In simple terms the they had no clue who to shoot or why or when. They were just as confused about what was going on as everyone else.

Many of then remained holed up in the bathroom/closet/whatever unable to see what was going on or take any decisive action.

Nor did they have the ability to identify other "good guys" and coordinate their actions.

Sometimes it's fun to imagine taking things into our own hands and happily devolving into a primitive cowboy style legal system free of justice and liberty.

Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that none of that crap actually works the way it does in the movies.

Maybe that sort of nonsense would fly in Nigeria, but certainly not in a modern urbanized democracy.

Why not simply replace our constitution with a decree of mob justice then?<br style="mso-special-character:line-break"> <br style="mso-special-character:line-break">

 

 

I know, I know he is a literary genius

 

NAVYBLUE


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 7, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, Mr. Sunset, but you have completely gone from logic to ridicule with this little rant. Does that mean you have no further logic to bring to the discussion?
> ...


My Reply:

*Research on violent crimes prevented by citizens per year with LEGALLY owned firearms and numbers*

* *

*1.7 million Hart Research Associates 1996*

* *

*1.5 million John Lott (U. of Florida) 1998*

* *

*2.1 million Klerk/Gertz (NW Law School) 1999*

* *

*2.0 million Clinton Justice Dept 1999*

* *

*NONE of these researchers are conservative organizations or gun right organizations*

* *

*You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing. I have the constitutional right to insure to the best extent possible that it NEVER happens to me or my family. EVERY weapons permit holder I've talked to (and myself) knows that if we have to kill someone to save our/family members, that it will affect our lives forever. Permit holders learn the 3 S's real early. Lessen your chances of ever having to use your weapon by NOT going to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things.*

* *

*Dept of Justice/FBI stats show as a PERCENTAGE of state population that the more restrictive a state is on issuing permits to LEGALLY allowed citizens, the higher the violent crime rate. The bluer the state the higher the PERCENTAGE is of violent crime and deaths per 100,000 people*

* *

*Citizens kill (Legally) more felons per year than law enforcement personnel by a 9 to 1 ratio. Very few ever spend time in jail for convictions of use of deadly force. My brother is a former LEO and uncle is a retired **Oklahoma Highway** patrolman. Both have told me that there primary job is take the information AFTER the violent crime is committed and try to find the perpetrator/s. A police officer is not going to save you from being murdered if you are counting on that.*

* *

*I remember when **Arizona** passed constitutional carry two years ago which allows all 21 year old or older LEGAL citizens to open carry a weapon. The local/national news was full of stories of blood in the streets. Never happened.*

* *

*The most anti weapons people are usually the most ignorant and 99% of the media falls in that category. 99% of the media, 99% of the people on this forum and 99% of the general public can not tell me when if I asked them what is an ASSAULT rifle, what is a semi automatic rifle, what is a semi automatic pistol, what is a revolver and what is a double action revolver according to the BATF.*

* *

*As I told the other gentleman, when the SHTF around you, you better hope a permit holder is nearby to maybe stop the murder/rape.*


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 7, 2011)

My reply to another person who felt the need to be educated:

I LOVE educating the uneducated masses. YOU assume all that you stated. We (legal permit holders) don't assume any of what you stated. See my posts under TSA and maybe you'll get it. In all the statistics I quoted, 99% of all discharges of weapons carried by LEGAL permit holders are one and one with normally few people around. VERY rarely does a LEGAL permit holder get in a shooting match when there is MORE than one shooter and innocent people around. Why ?

1. The police officer might not know you are a "good guy".

2. The "bad" guy might have an automatic weapon. I am not NORMALLY allowed to possess an automatic weapon, but of course YOU already knew that didn't you. I didn't think so.

3. I could kill an innocent bystander.

4. The police officer doesn't even know "instantly" who the bad guys or good guys are. How the hell would I know instantly.

5. Usually permit holders have taken classes (Tactical Defense) or other classes and learned how to assess situations prior to them occurring. We learn color awareness coding (Before TSA ever discovered it) Green, Yellow, Orange and Red.

6. I am Green in my house, doors locked, weapons accessible.

7. I am Yellow anytime, anywhere I am outside.

8. I am Orange anytime I am anywhere near a male 16-55 (color doesn't matter in case you think we profile) who is within 75-100 yards of me, doesn't look like he belongs or possesses the traits in item 11.

9. I am Red(weapon in my hand) when I know my/wife's life is in imminent danger or I have been threatened with my life.

10. We are taught that when shots are fired 99.9% percent of the people run or hit the ground. Who does that leave ? Two or more bad guys shooting at each other OR a police officer/s and one or more bad guys. You only shoot when you know the LEO is in imminent danger of being killed. Let them take the actions they are TRAINED to perform. We permit holders are NOT cowboys from the wild west. We want to live just like you do.

11. We are taught the eye movements, clothing, mannerisms, body movements, tactics and personality traits of potential bad guys.

12. We are trained to shoot if we have a clear shot to take someone down who is about to kill a police officer or bystander.

13. Last but not least, DO NOT believe what you read in the press or hear on TV( including FOX) They are the most incredibly stupid and uninformed people in America when it comes to weapons, self defense and weapons training.

If you are ever to visit Las Vegas know that there are trained LEGAL permit holders there to assist you in living to return home to your loved ones.

NAVYBLUE


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 7, 2011)

OK, if you want me to stop people then DON'"T post stupid remarks about weapons, gun control or gun law unless you have unbiased facts. I'm a trained professional. I'll just make you look stupid.

I had a personal email correspondence with a gentleman on AU who doesn't own a weapon and doesn't want to carry a weapon who posted about guns. I told him I respect him for his beliefs because he wasn't trying to stop me from exercising my constitutional right and I wasn't trying to impose my beliefs on him.

NAVYBLUE


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## Steve4031 (Dec 7, 2011)

At this point I've read about 10 posts and have seen nothing directly related to what happened on 22. I think we need to get back on topic.

I don't see any potential middle ground on the discussion of legal possession of fire arms. I understand that a properly trained person is likely to use a gun safely and appropriately. Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun. Let's get back to talking trains.


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## ehbowen (Dec 7, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun.


Would that include a police officer traveling off duty and in plain clothes?


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## Ryan (Dec 7, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> At this point I've read about 10 posts and have seen nothing directly related to what happened on 22. I think we need to get back on topic.
> 
> I don't see any potential middle ground on the discussion of legal possession of fire arms. I understand that a properly trained person is likely to use a gun safely and appropriately. Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun. Let's get back to talking trains.


Seconded.

Hell, I support the right to bear arms and think that NAVYBLUE is making folks that support the right to carry look bad.


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## amamba (Dec 7, 2011)

I take personal offense to being called part of the "uneducated masses."

As it is now, you are not allowed to bring your weapon on an amtrak train. I am fine with the regulations as they stand now. All personal firearms must be carried in the baggage car.

If you want to bring your weapon on a train, then please write to your congresspeople or to Joe Boardman and ask for the regulations to be changed. Or maybe the NRA would be happy to get behind that as well.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 7, 2011)

Steve4031 said:


> At this point I've read about 10 posts and have seen nothing directly related to what happened on 22. I think we need to get back on topic.
> 
> I don't see any potential middle ground on the discussion of legal possession of fire arms. I understand that a properly trained person is likely to use a gun safely and appropriately. Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun. Let's get back to talking trains.


I agree Steve, but first a couple of words from our Sponsor as they say! I;m a Texan, a Vet, raised with and trained in Firearm use and safety (and HAVE Used them in various forms!) but Reports coming out in the media now say that the only Shots fired on the Train were by the Undercover LEOs! I too would not want to be on an Amtrak Car where guns were being used by ANYONE!!! A sad situation for sure, Im fully aware of the Second Ammendment(an Support it within the Parameters of how it is written, ie "A well regulated mIlitia" is pretty clear!), but the worst Shooting in Recent Times happened @ Ft. Hood,Texas, an Army Base! Plenty of Arms and Trained People there but it took a Civilian Police Officer from OFF the Base! to end it!), I dont wat a bunch of Texas Vigilantes packing heat on my Trains, Dirty Harry was a Movie and John Wayne is Dead and was a Phony Movie Star and Draft Dodger!! :help:


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## Ryan (Dec 7, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Reports coming out in the media now say that the only Shots fired on the Train were by the Undercover LEOs!


That's very much similar to an incident that happened up here this week. A "joint warrant task force" was out serving drug warrants here in Anne Arundel County. This task force rolled up to the house, where the man they sought was out front. They took him into custody without incident, however when then going inside to search the premises a Baltimore County officer somehow shot a Baltimore City officer (word is that it was an accidental discharge, that just happened to occur while his weapon was pointed at another cop). The officer then returned fire, but fortunately missed the county cop that had just shot him.

Some real Barney Fife action there for sure. Guns have their place, but all of NAVYBLUE's ranting about being a trained professional rings hollow.

As an aside, like Jim, I'm a vet that was raised around firearms and have had plenty of formal training while in the Navy to include being a member of a boarding team that went through and searched/cleared vessels.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 7, 2011)

ehbowen said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun.
> ...


Let me clarify. I have no problem with off duty police officers or anybody else traveling with a gun if they have the legal right to do so. I meant I would not want to be in a superliner coach with the gun drawn and being fired. It is an enclosed space, and a bullet could miss the target, or go through the target, and hit me or anybody else.

I am not even going to pretend to critique the performance of a law officer using a gun. I don't have the training or knowledge to properly do so. A friend of mine was once a police officer, and he described several incidences where he had to pull out his gun. Fortunately, he never had to shoot anybody. But his description of the adrenaline, and fear that he experienced caused me to stop and reflect and develop a respect for the police. There are stories of police officers shooting people by accident (usually because the person did something to make the officer think they had a gun), and there are stories of military people with training accidentally shooting their own men (friendly fire). Each case shows that trained people can shoot "the wrong person" on occasion. Knowing this, I prefer not be in a situation involving fire arms.

I work in an urban school district, where some of my students have been shot and injured or killed. These are probably illegally owned guns. I wish there was some way to control access to these kinds of guns, because it is traumatic everytime somebody you know gets shot. Yes, I know some of them are gang members, or drug dealers, or something else. However, as a teacher you form relationships with them, their families, and their friends. And I happen to care about them. And see them as people.

My sister has considered getting a hand gun, and I advised her to get professional training to use it. She relied on her boy friend for said training. I disagree. I know there is a gun in her house, and I informed my father because she might not mention it to him. I think he had a right to know there was a gun in the house. If he is moving around at night, and her not trained a$$ wakes up and freaks out, I don't want something to happen.

I know this is somewhat off topic. Getting back to the topic. We are here to discuss our passion of trains. For me, trains represent an escape for the stress and hassles of my job and life. I always feel safe and at home on the train. However, I do know that anything can happen at any place and any time. I think we all hate to see incidents like this happen on Amtrak. However, Amtrak with its baggage policy, and the absence of airline type security, provides an efficient way for drug dealers to travel and move their product. We have seen numerous reports of drug busts on Amtrak trains. To assume that there would not eventually be a drug related shooting on a train would be naive. This is not the first one, and it will not be the last.

If you are traveling, keep your eyes open, and stay safe. EVen in a sleeper.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm not 100% anti-gun. If you're in some hard to reach rural area where the nearest police assistance is quite some distance away and they're only staffed to handle one or two emergencies at a time then even I might want access to a gun. But in a populated urban center guns become more of a risk than a benefit in my view.

Presumably that's why even most democracies make it very difficult if not impossible for average citizens to own and carry guns. They also suffer far fewer gun related deaths than we happily tolerate. Heck, even in cowboy movies weren't you supposed to check your weapons at the sheriff's office before you could go looking for trouble at the local bar?

I hear gun fanatics tell me that we'd only be trading gun deaths for stabbing deaths if we restricted gun ownership, but that makes no sense to me and isn't borne out by any of the statistics I've ever seen. If my family is being challenged by an attacker with a knife then I still have a decent chance of successfully scuffling with the assailant and either wresting control of the weapon or at least slowing them down long enough to give others a chance to escape. If we're being challenged by a gun-wielding lunatic then by the time we even know the attack is coming we're already being massacred.

This goes double for situations where the attacker is a family member themselves. I can't tell you how many times I've read about some suicidal parent who lost control of their life and decided to take out their whole family in one fell swoop. With a knife attack they'd still catch their family off-guard but someone might be able to tackle them or run away or even just scream for help and alert others. With a sudden gun attack nobody has a chance to do much of anything before being critically wounded.

As if that wasn't bad enough in a murder-suicide shooting the attacker doesn't even need to worry about answering for their heinous crimes. That's not to say that removing guns from the equation would prevent all murder-suicides, but if you're willing to commit suicide by repeatedly stabbing yourself with a knife then my need to see you tried in court is rather diminished.

All this childish _Willie Horton_ nonsense coming from our new hardliner guy doesn't change my mind one bit. If anything it only pushes me further and further toward the gun-control side. Alright, enough of this diversion for now, let's get back to discussing some trains!


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 7, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > At this point I've read about 10 posts and have seen nothing directly related to what happened on 22. I think we need to get back on topic.
> ...



Why do I make right to carry people look bad ?

Because I use FACTS that you can not dispute ?

Because I've explained the training I went through, how I assess the situations when I am out and about and that I may have to kill someone to save my or my wife's life ?

Because I've told others you have a right to die at the hands of a criminal if you so wish ?

Because I've stated if you are going to spout off in an uneducated manner about weapons, weapon training or weapon law I am going to challenge you.

Ryan, you DO NOT support the right to carry anymore than the people who say I support the troops but not the war. That statement and the I don't want to be in a Superliner with someone with a "Gun" and lets get back to our trains tells me all this is making you queasy.

1. Criminals carry "guns", LEGAL permit carry persons carry "weapons"

2. Weapons mean more than pistols, revolver and rifles.

3. Unless you live in California or Illinois, don't go to McDonalds, the grocery store, gas station, library etc. I guarantee you almost every day you walk by someone or sit near someone who has a LEGAL concealed weapon who is not a LEO.

So a LEO, FBI, DEA, TSA, etc officer is not allowed to be in the same coach as you. Right ?

Come on, say it with me. I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, I don't want a gun, I don't know anything about guns and I really don't want others to have guns.

Know, if you were to tell me you have never had the desire to own a gun but believe it is MY constitutional right to LEGALLY carry a weapon, then I might respect your feelings.

But you're an anti-gunner who believes in selective CHOICE.

I see your're from Maryland where you can get a LEGAL weapon permit if your life has been threatened. How peachy.

Thank you for your participation in democracy.

NAVYBLUE


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## RobertB (Dec 7, 2011)

I think we can agree to disagree about whether we, the public, should carry guns on trains. I fully agree that some folks disagree with me and have an absolute right to their opinion. Furthermore, I absolutely believe that those who disagree with me do so in good faith. And even further-more-er, I am open to having my opinion changed. (Note: I have not stated what my opinion *is*, and I don't feel the need to do so.) Nuff said bout that.

The topic I'd like to see debated is slightly, but importantly different. It's not whether the average Joe(anne) should carry a gun on board a train.

The question we should be asking here is this: *is it appropriate for a Dallas (or any city) police officer to take it upon himself to carry *his* weapon on board a train?*

I listened to the DPD chief talking on the radio (saying what was quoted earlier), and based on my highly limited knowledge of firearms and ballistics, I think he's full of crap. If the DPD confronts the suspect in the station, *AND IF THEY DO IT RIGHT*, then there's little chance of an armed confrontation. If it turns into "a running gun battle", as the chief said might have happened, then that means that the cops completely screwed up the bust.

Seriously! DPD can bring a force of over a hundred cops in riot gear to tear down a few tents, as they did a couple of weeks ago to protect Bank of America's planter boxes. They can't position a half-dozen trained narcotics agents to ensure that taking down a suspicious person sitting on a bench doesn't turn into a running gun battle? A hundred cops for a few stoners, but just a couple of Chuck Norris wannabes with bad aim for a wanted felon who, as the chief said, "wasn't going to be taken alive"?

The chief spoke as though an armed confrontation in an aluminum tube was preferable to the Shootout at the OK Corral (aka Union Station). Would he have said the same if the tube had wings, and was parked at Love Field? If he did, would anyone have hesitated to call for his job?

The Dallas Morning News has a front-page article today, wondering if trains should be subject to the same security theater as airports. The answer, obviously, is no... not when the biggest danger to passengers is cowboy cops who don't know when to call for backup.


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## The Chief (Dec 7, 2011)

*BUMP*.

Posted Today, 12:02 AM

On tonight's (Tuesday's) 10 o'clock news in interviews Dallas Police Chief David Brown admitted that slain suspect most likely did not even discharge his weapon.

That means, pending any conclusive ballistics tests, all GSWs inflicted were fired by Dallas cops.

Chief also noted the officers "followed the suspect" to the train to check him out, rather than in the station, which the chief repeatedly referred to as "the lobby." Brown said the train was a "safer place to confront the suspect" than in "the lobby." “We could have had a running gun battle in a lobby, he said. "The officers, in my opinion, approached this gentleman in the best way possible.”

That makes sense. Confront suspect in confined stainless steel tubular box full of passengers, add three plainsclothes cops, at least four weapons, and see what happens. In a "lobby" (_i.e._ station) like Dallas Union Station, people could at least flee. I think DPD screwed the pooch on this one.

Wonder if *Amtrak*'s "top cop" John O'Connor, Amtrak VP/Chief of Police, in Dallas for a meeting, may raise some hell with locals boarding his train and creating what turned out to be quite a cluster and safety hazard.

Victim/suspect was Stephen Ray Malone Jr., 32, Waterford, Mich. Online court records show Malone's long criminal history including convictions for larceny, fraud and theft.

Nothing yet noted in his criminal record about drug possession or trafficking.


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## Ryan (Dec 7, 2011)

NAVYBLUE said:


> But you're an anti-gunner who believes in selective CHOICE.


BS. Don't you dare ever tell me what I believe again.

This is exactly why you make the pro-second amendment look bad. Your arrogance is astounding. You don't win any friends calling people names, instead drive people to the other side of the argument.

It's a good thing that you weren't one of my sailors.


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## MrFSS (Dec 7, 2011)

This one has gotten way off topic and out of control. The two sides to the non-topic discussion will never agree and there is no sense going any further. I've locked it to let things cool off. If you get any news about the topic, let us know and we'll add it on to the thread.

Thanks!


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## MrFSS (Dec 7, 2011)

In this *link* there is a report that the suspect had his weapon out and was brandishing it. This is probably the reason the DPD officers fired and if true, justified.

From AU Member leemell


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## AlanB (Dec 8, 2011)

I'm going to reopen this topic since I expect that additional news regarding this incident will come out and further discussions may ensue.

Let's however please keep the discussion to the incident and not a discussion on gun owner's rights. Thanks!


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## TVRM610 (Dec 8, 2011)

I think Amtrak trains and stations need to hire on-board and in-station police to protect passengers from the local police and TSA! I mean seriously, this should have never happened. While the suspect shouldn't have pulled a gun, they had no reason to ask him to have his bag searched. "Behaving Suspiciously" is too broad of a term. Let's all remember that taking a picture of a train station or listening to a scanner can count as "suspicious."


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## AlanB (Dec 8, 2011)

Let me try this again!

Less than 20 minutes after I reopened this topic and asked people to please stay on the topic of the shooting incident onboard the Texas Eagle, someone comes along with a post about gun owner's rights. It's become quite clear that certain posters cannot discuss that topic without getting heated and trading insults. Therefore we will *NOT* be discussing that topic any more.

Please stay on the topic of the shooting on the Eagle! Thank you!


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## haolerider (Dec 8, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Let me try this again!
> 
> Less than 20 minutes after I reopened this topic and asked people to please stay on the topic of the shooting incident onboard the Texas Eagle, someone comes along with a post about gun owner's rights. It's become quite clear that certain posters cannot discuss that topic without getting heated and trading insults. Therefore we will *NOT* be discussing that topic any more.
> 
> Please stay on the topic of the shooting on the Eagle! Thank you!


Thank You!


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

haolerider said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Let me try this again!
> ...


Second


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 8, 2011)

I still don't understand why they felt a train full of innocent bystanders was a great place to confront this man. Or what exactly tipped them off in the first place. I'm also curious what was actually in the bag they were so anxious to search. Unfortunately getting to the bottom of this story is forever complicated by the fact that the suspect was killed and we only have one side of story that can still speak.


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## AlanB (Dec 8, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> I still don't understand why they felt a train full of innocent bystanders was a great place to confront this man.


Agreed!

And I'm still trying to rationalize how the police chief thought it was better to have the potential for shooting in the close quarters of a rail car where exits & shelter is very limited, as opposed to the train station where people can run out a multitude of doors or hide behind walls and such.

If indeed the initial reports are true, that the suspect never fired his gun, then the fact that one officer shot another would seem to indicate that it wasn't a good idea to do this in the close confines of the railcar.


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## buck1108 (Dec 8, 2011)

Not to be controversial :giggle: , but what will happen to the 'crime scene' car?


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## The Davy Crockett (Dec 8, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > I still don't understand why they felt a train full of innocent bystanders was a great place to confront this man.
> ...


Yep. Maybe it is stating the obvious, but it sure seems like one, or several, 'officials' really screwed up, and in hindsight, made some pretty bad choices. A sad part of this story is that if someone had not been killed, there likely would be no questioning of the actions, even though, as Alan says, you really have to wonder why anyone would think a railcar filled with passengers would be a good place to confront the suspect.


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## VentureForth (Dec 8, 2011)

Anyone know what car this was on, and if it back in service?


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## PerRock (Dec 8, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> Anyone know what car this was on, and if it back in service?


Might see if I can buffen-up this image to get the car number:

http://www.wfaa.com/news/slideshows/Photos-Shooting-on-Amtrak-train-in-Dallas--135059778.html?gallery=y&c=y&ref=%2F&img=15#gallery-image

(picture #16, in case the link takes you to the beginning)

But I think it was the 2nd coach on the TE. If anyone knows the consists that would make things easier.

peter


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 8, 2011)

From the story tied to the photo linked above...



> [Deputy police Chief] Blankenbaker said exact details, including who fired the shots and why police singled out the individual, would not be immediately released. Blankenbaker also would not say what led to the confrontation or if it was within protocol to engage a suspect on a crowded train...Police escorted an emotional woman off the train who screamed, "He's dead; he's dead."...Witnesses at the scene said the incident happened without warning. "I was looking down at my phone and all of the sudden I heard, 'Get off me; get off me,' and then 'pop, pop, pop, pop," said Jonathan Beaubien, a passenger from Gainesville, Texas. "I hit the ground and then ran off the train."


They don't seem to be claiming this is established protocol, at least not yet.


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## George Harris (Dec 8, 2011)

Since the "crime scene was contained in the one coach, I do not understand why the rest of the train was not separated, in front and behind, reassembnled on an adjacent track and sent on its way.

At the risk of straying, I have difficulty understanding thet lack of fire control on the part of the police. This has happened elsewhere. A few weeks back, in San Francisco, a policeman took a shot at a person running into or toward a crowd and managed to hit *two* uninolved people with the one bullet.


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## The Chief (Dec 8, 2011)

George Harris said:


> Since the "crime scene was contained in the one coach, I do not understand why the rest of the train was not separated, in front and behind, reassembnled on an adjacent track and sent on its way.
> 
> A few weeks back, in San Francisco, a policeman took a shot at a person running into or toward a crowd and managed to hit *two* uninolved people with the one bullet.


Part A = Too logical.

Part B = *George*, it was like 100 yards from this *Superliner* shooting where "one" famous bullet hit _two people_ -- in Dealey Plaza,,,


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## boxcar479 (Dec 8, 2011)

When the story first broke, on local news channells, there were conflicting reorts. Some said this was tied to a drug smuggling investigation that had been going on for months, others just made mention that the deceased was acting suspicious inside the station prompting the undercover officers to follow the guy back onto the train to question him. Someone on this forum said the brother was quoted as going back to his cabin or something to the effect that they had more than coach accomodations on the train. IMO. So what was the guy doing in coach anyway? Trying to blend in awaqy from the incriminating evidence perhaps? Right now there are more questions than answers for sure. Another conspiracy perhaps hboy: . I do agree that a loaded train car is no place for a gunfight, although I don't think the offender left the good guys with a whole lot of choice!


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## amamba (Dec 8, 2011)

I saw a clip on the internet of the Dallas police chief who continues to state that his officers did the right thing in having the confrontation on the train instead of the station. It is mind boggling to me that he thinks that was the right call!

I definitely would be interested in hearing more details as they come out. I do feel very badly for the poor passenger - I believe there was one innocent bystander - wounded in the melee.


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## Trainmans daughter (Dec 9, 2011)

amamba said:


> - wounded in the melee.


Dang! That's gotta hurt.


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## daveyb99 (Dec 9, 2011)

The Chief said:


> Wonder if Amtrak's "top cop" John O'Connor, Amtrak VP/Chief of Police, in Dallas for a meeting, may raise some hell with locals boarding his train and creating what turned out to be quite a cluster and safety hazard.


THAT would be an interesting phone call. I can just see every PD telling someone with a problem to "call the AMTRAK PD ... they might be here in a few days".

In all my travels in Texas, I have only ever seen AMTRAK PD once, and that was at a traffic accident on I-35 in Belton, TX.


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## daveyb99 (Dec 9, 2011)

George Harris said:


> Since the "crime scene was contained in the one coach, I do not understand why the rest of the train was not separated, in front and behind, reassembnled on an adjacent track and sent on its way.


What if the Conductor was a witness - can not leave.

How about other onboard staff - can not leave.

How about AMTRAK policy - maybe it says can not do that.

Not always that simple.


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## daveyb99 (Dec 9, 2011)

amamba said:


> I saw a clip on the internet of the Dallas police chief who continues to state that his officers did the right thing in having the confrontation on the train instead of the station. It is mind boggling to me that he thinks that was the right call!


I agree with the Chief. Get the suspect into a confined area with fewer people. I have no idea how many people were in the "lobby" or waiting room of the station or wandering around the area ... but I would have done the same.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 9, 2011)

daveyb99 said:


> I agree with the Chief. Get the suspect into a confined area with fewer people. I have no idea how many people were in the "lobby" or waiting room of the station or wandering around the area ... but I would have done the same.


Well, considering the absolute disaster that resulted can you explain to the rest of us _why_ you support the actions taken? It seems to me that they could have confronted the suspect _after_ he left the lobby but _before_ he had entered the train. Or, if that wasn't possible and they needed to confront him on the train perhaps they have could kept a low profile and slowly removed people from the car in question before confronting him? Perhaps it will come out that they did everything right, but based on the information released so far the explanation for their actions seems anything _but_ self-evident.


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## jis (Dec 9, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Texas Sunset said:
> ...


This may have happened this way because of the relative inexperience of the officers involved when dealing with railcars. It is quite likely that they may not have any specific training to handle such situations within railcars full of passengers and thought incorrectly that since a confined space like a small room is better than large lobby, ergo a small passenger car is better..... etc.

The other, admittedly very remote, possibility is that they were pulling a, what in India is euphemistically called "an encounter", and I will leave it at that. You can look it up or pm me for further explanation.


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## amamba (Dec 9, 2011)

Jis, that encounter stuff is interesting. I googled it as I had never heard of it. Thank you for sharing that perspective.


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## Ryan (Dec 9, 2011)

I agree that it isn't self-evident that the train was the best place. But in don't think that there is enought information to say that it was the wrong move too.

Hindsight is a great thing, but I look forward to learning what the officers believed and then making a decision.


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## George Harris (Dec 9, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> daveyb99 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with the Chief. Get the suspect into a confined area with fewer people. I have no idea how many people were in the "lobby" or waiting room of the station or wandering around the area ... but I would have done the same.
> ...


The first rule of shooting is to know what is behind whatever you are shooting at. If in the station or outside, there is a lot more space to consider. Hence, the railcar where the flying projectiles are contained in a small space. And, it is not just the police bullets straying that have to be considered. There is alos the consideration of the guy shooting that really does not care where his bullets go if he misses his target. These reasons say go for the smallest space you can get that has good strong solid walls. On these basises, the coach would appear to be the best choice.

No one has yet said how full the coach was. Maybe they knew, maybe they did not and were surprised by how many people were in the car, but by that time they were commmited. Remember the "nobody rides trains" thought that seems to be floating around.

Well, maybe what I said as the first rule is not. The best first rule is to always treat any gun like it is loaded until proven otherwise.


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## Gingee (Dec 10, 2011)

Is this a bad area? We are going into Dallas on Amtrak in a couple weeks. Staying very close to station.


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 11, 2011)

George Harris said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > daveyb99 said:
> ...


I thought same as you. With my tactical training (non LEO, unlike you) I was thinking keep the box small and give the alleged perp less options. I'd be interested in seeing the tactical report the Chief of Police gets. After that they may come to the conclusion to do some tactical training with abandoned/out of service cars similar to whats on the track although current stuff would be better OR they may decide that it was better in the station because of maneuverability.

Where I lived in Northeast PA they trained for the airport/bus scenarios but not train as we had no passenger depots nearby. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

NAVYBLUE


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 11, 2011)

Gingee said:


> Is this a bad area? We are going into Dallas on Amtrak in a couple weeks. Staying very close to station.


You should be safe in the Union Station area during the day, but as with any major urban area, do keep your Situational Awareness on high.


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## George Harris (Dec 11, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Gingee said:
> 
> 
> > Is this a bad area? We are going into Dallas on Amtrak in a couple weeks. Staying very close to station.
> ...


Can't speak for now, but I worked within a couple of blocks of there 1986-1988. At night the area was essentially dead. In the daytime it was a fairly good typical downtown.


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## boxcar479 (Dec 11, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Gingee said:
> 
> 
> > Is this a bad area? We are going into Dallas on Amtrak in a couple weeks. Staying very close to station.
> ...


I agree with Olympia H, "Safety is Awarenes" at all times. The West End a popular spot with many restaraunts and shops are within a short walk of Hotel Lawrence. As far as proximity you have picked a good place to stay. Be safe, be careful and have a great trip


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## Katherine (Dec 20, 2011)

I just have one comment to say. I was on board the Amtrak train during the shooting along with my two young boys. We sat only 4 seats back from the deceased suspect. We have had much difficulty dealing emotionally with what we witnessed. I just want to testify on behalf of all the police at the scene. The AMTRAK POLICE AND DALLAS OFFICERS AND HOMUCIDE DETECTIVES SAVED OUR LIves. They took such good care of my boys and I throughout this traumatic ordeal. My boys and I would have been riding all the way to Chicago with an ARMED CONVICTED FELON. you can't know what went on unless you lived it while shots rang out and your children and you had to get down to keep from getting shot. I believe all the police handled very well given the circumstance this CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON BESTOWED UPON US ALL THAT WERE ON BOARD THAT AMTRAK CAR.


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## VentureForth (Dec 21, 2011)

Thank you, Katherine, for your first hand account and taking the time to relive that terrifying moment.

I am thankful that no one else was severly injured.

I can only imagine the impact that this had on your boys. I hope and pray that they have learned what my wife enjoys telling our kids often - bad things happen when you're not doing right.

Though it would have been unlikely that the felon would have pulled his weapon during the course of his ride, the possibility always remains. I'm thankful that he was not allowed to endanger any more people than he already did.

I don't know if the scene was too chaotic at the time, if there was an opportunity for the passengers to have given the police offers an applause for their service.

If you don't mind sharing, would you please let us know how Amtrak handled the situation afterwards? Did you choose to stay onboard the train, or did you ride the bus to your final destination?

Again, I'm sorry for the tragedy you were subjected to, thankful that you and your family stayed safe, and happy to hear that from your account the police did what was right.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 21, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> Thank you, Katherine, for your first hand account and taking the time to relive that terrifying moment.


What account? I didn't see any new information or anything that contradicted what was previously posted. Just lots of shouting telling us that THE AMTRAK POLICE AND DALLAS OFFICERS AND HOMICIDE DETECTIVES SAVED LIVES by shooting up a train with a CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON that apparently shot nobody. I'm all for taking guns away from convicted felons and nutcases (which our current system apparently fails at), but I'm not sure we can commend the police for a job well done just yet. That also got a lot harder after the primary suspect was killed and non-suspects were injured.


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## Ryan (Dec 21, 2011)

It also left out the part where THE CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON wouldn't have been BESTOWED UPON THEM if the FINE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT had not allowed him to board THE TRAIN IN THE FIRST PLACE.


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## VentureForth (Dec 21, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, Katherine, for your first hand account and taking the time to relive that terrifying moment.
> ...


A first hand account other than a newspaper. You're right - it's not new and it's not contradictory. It's collaborative.



Ryan said:


> It also left out the part where THE CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON wouldn't have been BESTOWED UPON THEM if the FINE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT had not allowed him to board THE TRAIN IN THE FIRST PLACE.


Again, it looks like the guest poster acknowledged that it was handled in the best way possible and others who posted here who are weapons trained seem to agree that the danger was mitigated by being handled onboard rather than in the station.


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## Ispolkom (Dec 21, 2011)

Maybe I just have lousy google skills, but I find it odd that two weeks later there isn't any more information. I can't find a single follow-up article that gives more information on questions like how many shots were fired, what contraband (if any) the deceased was carrying, what's happened to the peace officer who shot his comrade, etc.

Are Dallas news outlets usually this unenterprising, or is this sort of event not considered big news in the Metroplex?

If I am just a poor researcher, I'd love a pointer to any follow-up.

Oh, and happy holidays, everyone!


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## Ryan (Dec 21, 2011)

Lets not open that can of worms again, shall we? Weapons training, in the absence of knowing what the situation in Dallas actually was brings no greater clarity to the situation. Nothing that has been posted here (or discussed elsewhere in public) gives us the information needed to determine if moving the confrontation to the train was a good idea or not.

Edit - that was directed at VF, not Ispolkom. I agree that it's odd that there hasn't been a lot of followup.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 21, 2011)

Wow, someone comes on here to share their experience of what was probably the most traumatic and dangerous moments of their life,

and the response is to make fun of their posting style?

That really isn't necessary.


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## NAVYBLUE (Dec 21, 2011)

Source # 1

Dallas Police Chief David Brown said that preliminary findings indicate no gunshots were fired from the handgun brandished Monday afternoon by the suspect. The officer and bystander also were shot, though their injuries weren't life-threatening.

Police say three plainclothes officers spotted a suspicious man at Union Station in downtown Dallas and followed him onto a train, then fired shots after the suspect drew a handgun.

The Dallas County Medical Examiner's Office identified the gunman as 32-year-old Stephen Ray Malone Jr. of Waterford, Mich. Online *court records show Malone's long* *criminal history including convictions for larceny, fraud and theft.*

Source # 2

A convicted felon intent on not going back to prison was willing to kill a cop, police chief David Brown said Tuesday. Stephen Ray Malone pulled a pistol on undercover police officers from his seat aboard an Amtrak train on Monday but never got a chance to pull the trigger, Brown added.

"What he was able to do before our officers fired the first shot is actually draw the gun out and pointed it in the face of one of our officers," said Chief Brown, Dallas Police Department.

Brown said officers killed Malone before he could shoot anyone.

"Immediately one of our officers heroically was able to fire his weapon and stop that action from happening," Brown said.

Malone had just been released from a Michigan prison for being a habitual burglar. He was on the Amtrak train to Chicago when Dallas police approached him because officers said he looked suspicious. At the time, police were conducting a routine narcotics operation where special squads look for drugs at bus and train stations and at the airport. Amtrak does not screen passengers for weapons or explosives.

"That one security screening would have prevented someone with a weapon getting on a train and would have avoided this from happening," said Chief Brown.

Amtrak said it has its own screening including uniformed officers, random passenger and baggage screening, K-9 units and on board security checks.

But, none of that worked Monday when a felon with a loaded gun traveled on one of their trains.

You're welcome

NAVYBLUE

PS: I am staying out of this one. I am going to let the "experts" on everything train related beat this one to death. I know what I don't know. I don't know LEO tactical decision making processes.

PSS IYOGOOWHG


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## Ryan (Dec 21, 2011)

Citations for the above two sources:

http://www.kgun9.com/news/national/135138833.html

http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Undercover-Officer-and-Passenger-Shot-by-Friendly-Fire--135131628.html

If the deceased pulled the gun out from under his seat, does that mean that he was unarmed when the police declined to engage with him while in the station?

Obviously the officers couldn't have known that, but it makes allowing the guy to get back to his seat look even worse.


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## George Harris (Dec 21, 2011)

One of the last things I want to see is the start of airport style creening to get on a train.

I also see no reason to do a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking on the actions of the police in this instance.


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## amamba (Dec 21, 2011)

Ryan, thank you for adding the citations for the sources. Navyblue, I would love to see those types of citations included if you are copying/pasting information from a third party source. Then we can all evaluate for ourselves where the information came from.

I don't think we need metal detectors for the trains.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 21, 2011)

A quote from a E-Mail from a reporter about doing a follow up story.

"There is still an internal affairs inquiry but it's moving slowly.  We hope to do a follow as soon as we know more from the investigation."

Not sure if this post is proper, Mod please delete if there issues. Thanks.


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## Ispolkom (Dec 22, 2011)

Ryan said:


> http://www.kgun9.com/news/national/135138833.html
> http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Undercover-Officer-and-Passenger-Shot-by-Friendly-Fire--135131628.html


Thank you for the links. Alas, as I'm sure you noticed, both links are from December 6, so these weren't follow-up stories.

Ah, here's a short television bit that doesn't really advance the story. It is something new, though.

One angle that I would have thought would have come up: is the innocent bystander seeking compensation for being shot?



> I don't think we need metal detectors for the trains.


As long as there are grade crossings, screening passengers is just security theater. If you look at what has happened to Amtrak trains, we don't need to worry about passengers with guns or bombs, we need to worry about trucks at grade crossings. That's what actually kills people in the real world.


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## George Harris (Dec 22, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> > I don't think we need metal detectors for the trains.
> 
> 
> As long as there are grade crossings, screening passengers is just security theater. If you look at what has happened to Amtrak trains, we don't need to worry about passengers with guns or bombs, we need to worry about trucks at grade crossings. That's what actually kills people in the real world.


exactly! Also, if we start the metal detector and other security theatre game, does that mean that all the platform only stops will have to be eliminated? For many of these, the train is the town's ONLY public transportation. These games wiould alos eliminate one of the train's major advantages for short to medium distances.


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## dart330 (Dec 22, 2011)

Surveillance video shows chaos after Union Station shooting

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Surveillance-video-shows-chaos-after-Union-Station-shooting-136046508.html


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## The Chief (Dec 23, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Citations for the above two sources:
> 
> http://www.kgun9.com/news/national/135138833.html
> 
> http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Undercover-Officer-and-Passenger-Shot-by-Friendly-Fire--135131628.html


Again, this still is nothing new or news.

DPD still internally investigating. Even WFAA ABC Ch. 8 report Wednesday 21 Dec contained _no_ new information, with exception of indirect quote that investigators say it was unavoidable* and _probably_ saved people's lives.

AFIK there were NO Amtrak police on the *Eagle* at the time of the shooting.

Comment:* Unavoidable? What about a scenario where officers talk with the citizen in the station, or on platform?

* * *

From Dept. of Conicidences, here's a story about armed Connecticut police searching a Metro North commuter train for a murder suspect (to no avail) this week.

"The train was stopped in Darien, where police, with guns drawn, searched the crowded trains for [suspect] Williams.

He was not found."

Story notes suspect may be bound for Nevada or California. Let's hope he doesn't take the *Zephyr*. This guy is wanted for _Murder_, not just _Questioning_...


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## VentureForth (Dec 23, 2011)

Amtrak police are few and far between outside the NEC. I meet one in North Carolina, and he told me he was it for the SE. I don't recall if that was an accurate recollection, but the point is there was probably not an Amtrak Cop anywhere near Dallas that day.


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## Ryan (Dec 24, 2011)

Well, the Cheif was there, so that's 1. Who knows if there were any more with him?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jul 20, 2013)

Old topic.

Have any of our Dallas area member seen/hear about final report.

Been over a year and half.

Never see it, Google news show nothing new.


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