# Free SunRail rides coming soon!



## Angela1117

I can't wait!

http://mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2014/2/17/sunrail_free_rides.html


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## pennyk

Ditto. Thanks for posting the link. I did not know about soft opening.


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## brentrain17

that is one ugly commuter rail car; almost as bad as the sounder


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## Angela1117

pennyk said:


> Ditto. Thanks for posting the link. I did not know about soft opening.


I've also heard a rumor that it's going to be running for the Winter Park Art Festival in March.


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## pennyk

Angela1117 said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto. Thanks for posting the link. I did not know about soft opening.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also heard a rumor that it's going to be running for the Winter Park Art Festival in March.
Click to expand...

I read that in the Sentinel and it was confirmed by the representative when I purchased my pass. I will try to ride it then. According to google, the art festival is March 21-23. I have a class that weekend, so I will try to ride on Friday.


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## beautifulplanet

The opening of SunRail on May 1, 2014, and the free riders to try it out before, will probably sound very exciting to many. As far as I can see, an actual schedule of the service has not been published yet. Or has it? March 21-23 is only a month away. Or will SunRail operate on a different schedule during the soft openings? Wouldn't really make sense, would it?


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## Angela1117

pennyk said:


> Angela1117 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto. Thanks for posting the link. I did not know about soft opening.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also heard a rumor that it's going to be running for the Winter Park Art Festival in March.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I read that in the Sentinel and it was confirmed by the representative when I purchased my pass. I will try to ride it then. According to google, the art festival is March 21-23. I have a class that weekend, so I will try to ride on Friday.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear it!! I'll be working that Friday or I'd try to meet up with you!


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## Scott Orlando

Angela1117 said:


> pennyk said:
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> 
> 
> 
> Angela1117 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto. Thanks for posting the link. I did not know about soft opening.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also heard a rumor that it's going to be running for the Winter Park Art Festival in March.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I read that in the Sentinel and it was confirmed by the representative when I purchased my pass. I will try to ride it then. According to google, the art festival is March 21-23. I have a class that weekend, so I will try to ride on Friday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Glad to hear it!! I'll be working that Friday or I'd try to meet up with you!
Click to expand...

I was really hoping to ride Friday to the WPSAF (actually just ride until they kick me off...Ive seen the Art Festival...give me SunRail!), but most articles say they will only run Saturday and Sunday ... :huh:

Testing is going full blast. They ran 8 full length trips today! Yesterday they even brought the FDOT DMU out of the barn!


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## pennyk

Scott Orlando said:


> Angela1117 said:
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> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Angela1117 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto. Thanks for posting the link. I did not know about soft opening.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also heard a rumor that it's going to be running for the Winter Park Art Festival in March.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I read that in the Sentinel and it was confirmed by the representative when I purchased my pass. I will try to ride it then. According to google, the art festival is March 21-23. I have a class that weekend, so I will try to ride on Friday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Glad to hear it!! I'll be working that Friday or I'd try to meet up with you!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was really hoping to ride Friday to the WPSAF (actually just ride until they kick me off...Ive seen the Art Festival...give me SunRail!), but most articles say they will only run Saturday and Sunday ... :huh:
Click to expand...

If they are not running on Friday, I may have to change my weekend schedule and ride either Saturday or Sunday morning. I am with you.... I would rather ride SunRail than see the art festival. Maybe this will turn into a "mini gathering." :lol:


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## Nathanael

beautifulplanet said:


> Or will SunRail operate on a different schedule during the soft openings? Wouldn't really make sense, would it?


Gives them a chance to test the schedule. They can put out one schedule for the soft opening -- if it works, they stick with it, if it doesn't work, they change it before the "real" opening!


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## beautifulplanet

Nathanael said:


> beautifulplanet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or will SunRail operate on a different schedule during the soft openings? Wouldn't really make sense, would it?
> 
> 
> 
> Gives them a chance to test the schedule. They can put out one schedule for the soft opening -- if it works, they stick with it, if it doesn't work, they change it before the "real" opening!
Click to expand...

Yeah, guess that doesn't seem impossible: Soft opening as a schedule test.

(Just checked the SunRail website again - still there are no schedules posted...  )


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## George Harris

beautifulplanet said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beautifulplanet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or will SunRail operate on a different schedule during the soft openings? Wouldn't really make sense, would it?
> 
> 
> 
> Gives them a chance to test the schedule. They can put out one schedule for the soft opening -- if it works, they stick with it, if it doesn't work, they change it before the "real" opening!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, guess that doesn't seem impossible: Soft opening as a schedule test.
> 
> (Just checked the SunRail website again - still there are no schedules posted...  )
Click to expand...

That is what a "soft opening" is supposed to be. That was done with the Taiwan HSR. There were two weekends. The first was limited to employees and immediate families. We were supposed to go to the ticket windows and get tickets and in generally do what the paying passengers were going to do except hand over money. Just show or employee ID instead. The first weekend showed a lot of issues, mostly related to the operating employees developing the habits and moves necessary. There were few transfers from the existing Taiwan Railway as it appeared unlikely to to lose significant business to the HSR (It didn't.), so most of the people behind the counters and on the trains were new to moves required. The trains themselves did OK, as there had been quite a bit of running empty or with a limited number of riders. The next round was open to family and friends and for that the reservation system was given a tryout. They got some fairly full trains this way, and again some very interesting events with the system having its first real operation. This number of days operated this way was extended if I recall correctly. Doing this made for a lot fewer glitches upon the real opening than they would have had otherwise.


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## Caesar La Rock

April 15th-25t will be perfect for me to check out how Lynx will do when it comes to connecting with Sunrail. All the schedule changes for Lynx by the way go into effect on April 13th.

http://www.golynx.com/news-events/news_detail.stml?portalProcess_dd_0_1_1=showPublicPosting&calendar_entry_id=1770


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## pennyk

THE CJ said:


> April 15th-25t will be perfect for me to check out how Lynx will do when it comes to connecting with Sunrail. All the schedule changes for Lynx by the way go into effect on April 13th.
> 
> http://www.golynx.com/news-events/news_detail.stml?portalProcess_dd_0_1_1=showPublicPosting&calendar_entry_id=1770


Thanks. I am fortunate that, weather permitting, I live walking distance from the Lynx Central Station and will have easy access to SunRail. On another note, I am concerned that I have not received my pass in the mail yet. Friends of mine have already received theirs.


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## Caesar La Rock

I need to buy a pass. Hopefully soon.


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## beautifulplanet

Thank you for posting this.



THE CJ said:


> April 15th-25t will be perfect for me to check out how Lynx will do when it comes to connecting with Sunrail. All the schedule changes for Lynx by the way go into effect on April 13th.
> 
> http://www.golynx.com/news-events/news_detail.stml?portalProcess_dd_0_1_1=showPublicPosting&calendar_entry_id=1770


This isn't about SunRail itself, just about the Lynx bus changes that seem to come along with it: Bus line 41 will be split! Can one still ride the new bus lines 436S or 436N as a one-seat ride, say, from the airport to Altamonte Springs? Or does one have to physically change buses, or is there too long of a pause inbetween the 436S and 436N service at Fern Park for it to be practical? There is no updated system map graphically showing all the new or altered routes, is there?

BTW, still no schedule (even no test run schedule) posted yet on the SunRail website...


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## Caesar La Rock

beautifulplanet said:


> Thank you for posting this.
> 
> 
> 
> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> April 15th-25t will be perfect for me to check out how Lynx will do when it comes to connecting with Sunrail. All the schedule changes for Lynx by the way go into effect on April 13th.
> 
> http://www.golynx.com/news-events/news_detail.stml?portalProcess_dd_0_1_1=showPublicPosting&calendar_entry_id=1770
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't about SunRail itself, just about the Lynx bus changes that seem to come along with it: Bus line 41 will be split! Can one still ride the new bus lines 436S or 436N as a one-seat ride, say, from the airport to Altamonte Springs? Or does one have to physically change buses, or is there too long of a pause inbetween the 436S and 436N service at Fern Park for it to be practical? There is no updated system map graphically showing all the new or altered routes, is there?
> 
> BTW, still no schedule (even no test run schedule) posted yet on the SunRail website...
Click to expand...

Well depends on where exactly in Altamonte Springs. They're going to split the route at Fernwood Boulevard and Oxford Road, not at the Sunrail station as originally planned. The picture below gives everyone an idea of where the 41 will be split.








Unless the 436S and 436N is interlinked, like the 102 is with the 103 (and vice versa), you're going to have to change buses at Fernwood and Oxford. Now all of these changes are subjected to change. As for the updated map, all of those service changes go into effect April 13th, so nothing has been updated yet. As for Sunrail not uploading a schedule yet, it's still early before the train starts up.


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## Angela1117

Thanks for posting the Lynx link! I hadn't really explored Lynx but am happy to see that it goes by the building where I work.

Looking forward to the SunRail schedule being out one of these days.

I saw the train crossing Kaley this morning and up in Sanford yesterday morning…..I'm soooooo ready to kiss I-4 goodbye!


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## Caesar La Rock

Angela1117 said:


> Thanks for posting the Lynx link! I hadn't really explored Lynx but am happy to see that it goes by the building where I work.
> 
> Looking forward to the SunRail schedule being out one of these days.
> 
> I saw the train crossing Kaley this morning and up in Sanford yesterday morning…..I'm soooooo ready to kiss I-4 goodbye!


No problem. Votran in Volusia County I believe may have service changes to service the Sunrail stations there, though I'm not sure.


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## Caesar La Rock

The schedules have been posted!

http://www.sunrail.com/documents/sunrail_train_schedule.pdf

These are also subjected to change, just like the Lynx schedules.


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## chrsjrcj

IMO, they need earlier northbound trains in the afternoon. There should be at least a 3:15 pm departure. That 2.5 hours is way too long of a break when everybody is going north during the evening rush hour.


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## MattW

Ugh, it's peak-only service with two token midday trips. I certainly hope they expand this soon!


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## Caesar La Rock

I hope they do improve the schedule to make this more attractive for everyone, especially for tourists and so forth.


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## beautifulplanet

Once again with this paragraph going off-topic about the Lynx bus changes with SunRail starting:



> Unless the 436S and 436N is interlinked, like the 102 is with the 103 (and vice versa), you're going to have to change buses at Fernwood and Oxford. Now all of these changes are subjected to change. As for the updated map, all of those service changes go into effect April 13th, so nothing has been updated yet. As for Sunrail not uploading a schedule yet, it's still early before the train starts up.


Yes, I have changed buses at that stop, going into Sanford etc, while also just riding by it a lot on the 41 - and it was confusing how it was just called the Jai Alai stop, while having no clue what that was referring to until I found out. Now that complex just seems to have changed its name to "Orlando Live Events".  And it might seem to some at least that it would be great if like the former 41 the new lines were interlinked, otherwise it would be an extra transfer for everyone who wanted to take public transportation down that part of 436 - unless there are some big benefits coming from separating those lines which are not so obvious. Still, f.e. with SunRail leaving only every 2 and a half hours during midday at least for starters, probably a lot of people at least sometimes will still have to take the bus, even when traveling a route similar to that of the train.


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## beautifulplanet

THE CJ said:


> The schedules have been posted!
> 
> http://www.sunrail.com/documents/sunrail_train_schedule.pdf
> 
> These are also subjected to change, just like the Lynx schedules.


Thank you for writing this notification, that a schedule is posted now.

SunRail starting will bring so many new public transportations options to the Central Florida area - it's so good to finally see a concrete schedule. F.e. for people who work in Winter Park, actually not far from the station, coming from south of downtown near Sand Lake, and who used to be on the bus for 2 hours (each way) with two transfers, being able to take SunRail from Sand Lake to Winter Park in 22 minutes is going to be a huge difference. And not even thinking of all the people on I-4 commuting towards downtown. For many, it might be really exciting to see how ridership develops, probably one will see a ramp-up period and numbers slowly increasing, still it appears like it'll only be two bi-level cars with a maximum capacity of 300 every 30 minutes during rush hour, so of course it won't show the ridership numbers of the New York City subway, or even The Tide in Norfolk, but still, it might be interesting if thanks to word of mouth slowly more and more people who actually work close to of the stations will realize, SunRail actually can be better and less stressful than those traffic jams on I-4 each morning. Of course it is also a possibility that a lot of people won't be willing to put up with less-frequent headways, or the fact that SunRail possibly won't drive them right into their office parking lot, and rather continue to drive, still at least for some this will be interesting to see.

Questions about the schedule: Anybody have any guess to why the Southbound leaves at 5.45 instead of at 6.00? Seems like at least there would be no Amtrak trains interfering at that time. Or does a coal train to the power plant come through every morning at that hour? What is your opinion on the evening service? Might it be a drawback for many f.e. in downtown, in case having to work late and traveling southbound, that once the 6.44pm departure left, one has to wait for 2 hours for the 8.44pm departure?

It might seem like it for some that it would be great in case at least one late-evening train was added. Southbound, last depature from Lynx Central Station is 8.44pm, shouldn't be too difficult to add another run 2 hours later, leaving from downtown at 10.44pm (though of course it won't be as heavily used as the rush-hour ones, still there might be quite some downtown visitors also in the evening). And northbound, in case SunRail needs to be off of the corridor by midnight, looking at the trip times it should be enough in case it left Lynx central station at 11.15pm, then it would arrive at midnight in DeBary.

Seeing the schedule, and hearing the talk or reading the newspaper reports about a possible airport expansion, to many it might seem obvious that in case that airport expansion actually gets built, the schedule needs to be different. No airport traveler will want to wait - during the light of day, not talking about middle of the night here  - for 2 and a half hours for a departure to downtown, then they'll rather take 11 or 51. And obviously also those connections to Florida East Coast Industries' service will not be good with a 2 and a half hour wait, so many might think that service would need to be more frequent as well then.


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## MattW

I wonder if some of the sparseness in the schedule is due to equipment limitations? They only seem to have ordered 14 bilevel cars, enough for 7 trainsets of two each or four of three and one of two. I'll play with a graph of the timetable and see how the equipment rotation has to work out.


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## Caesar La Rock

First, no problem beautifulplanet. We might as well include Lynx into this too, since they and Votran are going to be play a major role in Sunrail's ridership. They do have one of the Tri-Rail DMUs in Sanford. I heard those aren't used a lot by Tri-Rail.

If Sunrail were to acquire those DMUs from Tri-Rail, it could help with the equipment limitations until the remainder of the cars and locomotives arrive. Those DMUs can carry almost 600 passengers per trainset.


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## MikefromCrete

This is just an initial schedule. I'm sure they wlll be fine-tuning it as they go along, depending on passenger demand. I mean, it is a start-up. Don't expect service every 15 minutes throughout the day.


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## Anderson

MikefromCrete said:


> This is just an initial schedule. I'm sure they wlll be fine-tuning it as they go along, depending on passenger demand. I mean, it is a start-up. Don't expect service every 15 minutes throughout the day.


My understanding is that a longer-term goal is 30-60 minute frequencies all day, with something closer to 15-minute frequencies at the peaks. However, some of that is going to need to wait at least for Phase II, if not for an airport extension (or some effective connection to either FEC or Disney...anything that could effectively serve Disney and/or Universal would probably hit a capacity problem, though).


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## beautifulplanet

MattW said:


> I wonder if some of the sparseness in the schedule is due to equipment limitations? They only seem to have ordered 14 bilevel cars, enough for 7 trainsets of two each or four of three and one of two. I'll play with a graph of the timetable and see how the equipment rotation has to work out.


Not having any graph available to me, it seems from like looking at the schedule that SunRail will need 5 trains to carry out that schedule. The equipment of the morning 5.06 departure in Sanford arrives at Sand Lake at 5.56, and then also probably serves as the first run at 6.15 out of Sand Lake, arriving at 7.11 in DeBary, so it could serve as the 7.30 southbound run again. In the meantime, 4 other trains left DeBary (5.30, 5.45, 6.30, 7.00), so a total of five consists seems to be needed.

Many might wish that everything works out just fine with the public opening of the service and that everything will go smoothly, as possibly it could be counter-productive if there were all these press reports around opening time about failure of equipment, or delays etc.


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## Anderson

I think it's five sets of equipment. The 5:30 AM turns as the 6:45 AM turns as the 8:00 AM. Also, the midday running schedule is a result of only using a single set of equipment at that time.

As to the sets, I wonder if they budgeted any spares in that 14.


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## Caesar La Rock

Anderson said:


> I think it's five sets of equipment. The 5:30 AM turns as the 6:45 AM turns as the 8:00 AM. Also, the midday running schedule is a result of only using a single set of equipment at that time.
> 
> As to the sets, I wonder if they budgeted any spares in that 14.


I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard the DMU sets from Tri-Rail are actually leased until Sunrail begins. Don't know if those plans changed.


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## Anderson

Just wondering, but wasn't the Tri-Rail set a three-car set? If so, that would be 17 cars: Five sets of three, and two spares.


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## Caesar La Rock

Anderson said:


> Just wondering, but wasn't the Tri-Rail set a three-car set? If so, that would be 17 cars: Five sets of three, and two spares.


Yep, it's a three car set.


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## George Harris

For an area as touristy as central Florida I would think the biggest issue would be the lack of service on weekends.


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## Anderson

George Harris said:


> For an area as touristy as central Florida I would think the biggest issue would be the lack of service on weekends.


Give it time. Right now, the underlying issue there is where SunRail _doesn't_ go:

-The Sand Lake Road stop isn't too far from the airport, but that is still a bit of a messy connection to even attempt. This is likely to get fixed in a few years (I've seen plans to build a connector to the airport once the FEC station is in place).

-The Sand Lake Road station is also problematically far from I-Drive. It runs a bit too far east since it is confined to the A-line.

-Nothing is going to go close to Disney. I'm not sure what the connections from the Kissimmee Amtrak station are like.

Obviously, there's a lot of talk of _something_ going to I-Drive and/or Disney...but it isn't in the current SunRail plan. I suspect the main question is whether this ends up being an FEC project, a municipal project in cooperation with FEC (who is going to want that alignment for access to Tampa and will likely _not_ pass up on the opportunity to pack in the hundreds of thousands of riders those two stations can offer), or a primarily municipal project on FEC tracks (which is plausible...it is entirely possible that local traffic between OIA and Disney would swamp the system and kill through ridership in the same vein that Amtrak has to limit Denver-Glenwood Springs ridership). At the very least, FEC would likely need some way to run additional trains on that segment and/or arrange some sort of interchange with SunRail.

So...does anyone have an old map of where the HSR line was going to go?

Edit: I'll clarify my previous question. There were two alignments under consideration. One went via I-4 (which Disney opposed) and one went via another route, I believe SR-429. I believe they'd both cross the A-line at about Sand Lake Road; it seems possible that if interconnection becomes a bit of a mess, you could set up a Secaucus-style station there. To quote SunRail's website:



> Located near the intersection of Orange Avenue and Sand Lake Road, the SunRail station at Sand Lake Road serves an expanding residential and business hub in south Orlando. The station offers easy bus access to the Florida Mall and the attractions area, as well as Orlando International Airport (OIA). The Sand Lake Road SunRail station is designed to connect with future rail options now planned to serve OIA to the east and the Orange County Convention Center and the International Drive tourism district to the west. This station also serves the residents of nearby Belle Isle and Taft. Current station designs include a park and ride lot and bus drop-off area.


Even though the present station is set to be just north of Sand Lake Road, depending on how the interconnection ultimately gets set up I could see the platforms getting moved a block or two south.

Moving back to the tourist front, another thing to remember is that the economics of this are a tangle for Disney. Let's look at several main categories of Disney visitor:

(1) The Disney Package Tourist. A train would help Disney with this category by removing the need to run the extensive shuttles to/from the airport, limiting the service to an on-property service (which they already run by and large). However, a complication arises insofar as a stop at I-Drive could steal some of these folks away to other off-property hotels...though at peak seasons, this is likely close to a moot point if the hotels are close enough to full anyway. A caveat is that the train might actually encourage staying on property for longer trips where the kids are likely to insist on a day somewhere that isn't Disney.

(2) The Staying-Elsewhere Tourist. Unless the rail service induces someone to visit Disney (i.e. someone visiting Tampa pops up for a day), this could turn into a net loss with Disney's parking revenue. However, this could be negated if Disney can work out a deal to get $X per passenger using their station as an offset (not to mention reducing internal congestion).

(3) The Annual Passholder. I differentiate this person from the other two because (A) parking fees are a non-consideration (already included in the pass) and (B) they're likely to be local. Making getting to the parks convenient is probably a good thing for Disney (since each visit is likely to result in incremental food and beverage revenue) so long as it doesn't cause park crowding.

Again, the issue here is that crushing loads of traffic between OIA and I-Drive and Disney can present a problem. Projections from 2009 or so seemed to put the combined load of traffic between OIA and those two destinations around three million riders, or about 10,000/day. The only way FEC could hope to accommodate that load without dedicated trains would be to run everything that would otherwise terminate at OIA (versus continuing on to Tampa) through to Disney and then turn it (likely making an operational headache of the WDW station). Moreover, I'm not sure what fare yield FEC could get out of passengers...particularly if SunRail tries to get in the mix (as they want to, with the OIA Connector project), since they would likely undercut FEC's fares.

*sighs*

So, I'm sensing an impending fight. One distinct possibility, given the tendency of airport lines to feature a surcharge, is that FEC does the opposite of what Tri-Rail is attempting, and pushes SunRail not to undercut them on fares to/from OIA. Given that a round trip on SunRail is presently slated to cost $7.50, what would be reasonable for an airport round-trip? A one-way taxi ride from OIA-Magic Kingdom seems to run $65-70, while downtown would run $40. I wonder how many folks would be willing to drop $8-10/person on a train?

Of course, this also raises a particularly strange possibility as well: If SunRail, instead of FEC, handles a decent share of the tourist traffic (particularly going anywhere-but-Disney) and has a hefty upcharge, that branch could flip into the black...

======================================

Yes, I think Walt is smiling broadly on this. As near as I can tell, his monorails were something of a railfan Hail Mary to save transit in America at a time when passenger trains had acquired a bad name (he looked into extending the line at Disneyland to downtown LA at one time [1]). His Progress City was largely built around transit, with the massive (underground) parking garages striking me as a concession to the increasingly auto-centric 60s more than anything...so if his biggest legacy, in the end, is the first profitable private-sector passenger rail operation since the 50s I think he'd be pleased with that.

[1] http://thedisneyblog.com/2006/02/11/walts-vision-bring-monorails-to-los-angeles-now/


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## beautifulplanet

Many might be surprised to read many paragraphs here about SunRail to the Walt Disney World Resort in Lake Buena Vista, Florida, or about some possible competition for rail passengers between a possible future SunRail service and a possible future Florida East Coast Industries' service, especially since there are no plans to expand SunRail directly to the World Disney World Resort except for a future 10+miles bus connection from SunRail's Phase 2 Osceola Parkway station in Hunter's Creek, Florida, once it's operating in 2017.

To many, the situation presents itself like this:

- SunRail Phase 1 starts operating in May 2014 (after a soft opening)

- Florida East Coast Industries' service between Miami and Orlando International Airport starts operating in "late 2015" (according to a February 2014 statement by FEC, could be scaled down to merely refer to just Miami to Cocoa, with Orlando International Airport service starting later, or everything could be delayed more still no matter what the reason)

- SunRail Phase 2 starts construction in 2015, starts operating in 2017 (if everything seems to go according to plan)

- SunRail to Orlando International Airport, according to press reports from November 2013, is "five years or more away". So even with the $213 million for the Intermodal Transportation Hub, the SunRail airport connection could theoretically be 2017 in the earliest, probably years later...

- In addition, it might seem to many that Florida East Coast Industries did not make any concrete or even binding statements yet about any future investment in the Orlando-Tampa corridor, or especially any connection to the Walt Disney World Report in Lake Buena Vista, Florida

- Then there's still the proposal of the privately built and operated 14.9 mile maglev system connecting Orange County Convention Center, Florida Mall, the Sand Lake Road SunRail station and Orlando International Airport, by a company called American Maglev Technology - to many it seems like this company did not have much luck with its projects in the past, and there are still technical problems, so it might be highly likely that this proposal never turns into reality

Finally it might seem to some, that there are corridors in Central Florida under study for potential rail use:

- Orlando International Airport (OIA) Connector, basically the same corridor as AMT's proposal: study estimated to be completed in "spring 2014", so soon

- US 441 Corridor Study, from Eustis and Tavares via Apopka to downtown Orlando, recently there were more press reports about potential, distant-future commuter rail service on an existing rail line in that corridor

- SR 50/UCF Connector Alternatives Analysis, examining the need for public transport improvements from Oakland and Winter Garden through downtown to University of Central Florida, basically along SR-50 with a buffer of one mile on each side: estimated to be completed approximately October 2014

There was another corridor under study for possible rail use, which even could have made a rail connection as close to Walt Disney World Resort like none other yet, but the current result is that bus rapid transit is preferred. At least that seems to have been the outcome of the Final Report of the US 192 Alternatives Analysis published last December, that looked at a north-south "Kissimmee corridor" and a east-west "Osceola corridor" along US 192 starting in the west at route 27 all the way to East Kissimmee.

So to many, it may seem like this may be the current situation regarding rail in Central Florida, and that there is nothing about a rail connection to the Walt Disney World Resort in there yet. Still of course in case there is, it would be great to be provided with all the details about it.  And of course, with all these mentioned or potential other corridors still having a chance of getting rail, it might seem to many that all the people wanting more rail in Central Florida can still advocate for it.


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## Anderson

I'm looking a couple of things:
(1) I assume FEC's project will be a success. Based on the markets involved, etc., this seems likely. It is _very _possible that FEC is going to more or less kill off the MCO-MIA air market (since my understanding is that said market is of the sort the airlines would just assume not operate anyway). Likewise, I assume that (based on the studies done for the bullet train) FEC is going to seriously look into running through to Tampa, particularly if they can get the ability to run some off-hour freight on their lines...which would break the CSX monopoly in the region.

(2) I'm looking at the FEC/Tri-Rail negotiations, and seeing what looks like a very aggressive stance.

(3) I assume that the OIA Connector is going to happen in some form, but I also assume that the Maglev project is DOA. On the OIA Connector, however, I think FEC involvement may be inevitable in some form.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Anderson said:


> So...does anyone have an old map of where the HSR line was going to go?


The old HSR website is down and I wish I kept the ROW schematics. Basically from the new MCO South Terminal (where the AAF/SunRail station is now planned) the south out of the airport crossing Tradeport and then west along the north side of Taft Vineland Road, joining the Beach Line near the JYP intersection, from there to a I Drive/Convention center station. From there following 528 to the I-4 median. I-4 median to the north side of downtown Tampa.


----------



## afigg

Scott Orlando said:


> The old HSR website is down and I wish I kept the ROW schematics. Basically from the new MCO South Terminal (where the AAF/SunRail station is now planned) the south out of the airport crossing Tradeport and then west along the north side of Taft Vineland Road, joining the Beach Line near the JYP intersection, from there to a I Drive/Convention center station. From there following 528 to the I-4 median. I-4 median to the north side of downtown Tampa.


The documents for the revised Final Environmental Impact Statement for the Tampa to Orlando HSR are available on the FRA website under the eLibrary tab. A search for Florida High-Speed turns up a batch of EIS documents and the ROD entered on May 7, 2010 and the original FEIS from July, 2005. Link to the result of the search. A search for All Aboard Florida turns up their EA and the FONSI for West Palm Beach to Miami segment.

While it is understandable that the state DOT would take the Florida HSR documents down since their Governor killed the project, the FRA has no reason to remove publicly filed documents. From a skim of the Appendix A maps, the route of the AAF tracks at the Orlando airport station looks to lead directly to the proposed Tampa to Orlando airport alignment.


----------



## beautifulplanet

Anderson said:


> (1) I assume FEC's project will be a success.


Of course many people who think that more public transportation options would be good for Florida might wish for Florida East Coast Industries' project to be a success.



Anderson said:


> (2) I'm looking at the FEC/Tri-Rail negotiations, and seeing what looks like a very aggressive stance.


Many in South Florida might be wishing for the Coastal Link between Jupiter, downtown Fort Lauderdale and Miami to start operating the popular Tri-Rail service soon as well, still a recent press report stated that it is only expected to start in 2020. Same report said that Florida East Coast Industries' own service is also only expected to start in 2016, in contrast to the "late 2015" mentioned earlier.

See here:

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/South-Florida-rail-upgrades-to-provide-more-freight-transit-travel-options--39706

Some might wish for the news to come out soon that the negotiations over trackage fees came to an successful closing that is acceptable both for Florida East Coast Industries and the South Florida Regional Transportation Authority.


----------



## beautifulplanet

Anderson said:


> (3) I assume that the OIA Connector is going to happen in some form[.]


Many might assume for it to happen, at the same time realize this is not a done deal yet. And some might think that it is not only important that it happens "in some form", but also in the best possible form. Just the day before yesterday, on March 12, 5:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. at the First Baptist Church of Pine Castle, there was another public meeting. Not knowing how many people attended, how that meeting went or what was being presented there, and just using the info on the www.oiaconnector.com website, it seems like remaining there are 2 bus rapid transit alternatives (2 and 6), and 2 light rail alternatives (3 and 4, with one variation each).

It might sound promising to many that the alternative 3a was developed after community input, as that light-rail alternative also serves the area of 436 right north of the airport better and goes along International Drive for some part of the way, so also providing access to all the destinations there.

Many might think that it sounds good that the light-rail alternative should be grade-separated completely in its own right-of-way, in opposition to the BRT alternatives without dedicated lanes, just using shared and public traffic space. So while BRT would be subject to road traffic delays and traffic jams, light-rail should provide a more reliable service with a high on-time performance.

At the same time, it might be surprising to many that the light-rail alternatives are supposed to be in a nearly completely aerial alignment, as it might seem possible to have it at-grade at least for several larger segments while still having its own seperated right-of-way without grade crossings.

Of course, this is just the Alternative Analysis study now, and first a light-rail alternative must be chosen as preferred alternative, and then go through further planning and finally receive funding for construction. Still, the plans being made now could be what decides what and how exactly something might be built years down the road (or "down the rail line"  ). So some might already have the concern now that with the renderings of the intermodal station at the airport, it seems like walking distances from the new south terminal to light-rail and especially to commuter rail seem to be quite far. It might seem to some that it would be beneficial for the success of light rail if walking distances would be minimized, especially at the airport where a lot of riders with heavy luggage could be expected.



Anderson said:


> I also assume that the Maglev project is DOA.


Some might think that even if the Maglev ends up being built, it would not exclude or contradict the planned OIA Connector, because they seem to target different groups of riders. As the Maglev proposal would only feature the Convention Center, Florida Mall, the Sand Lake rail station, Orlando International Airport and Lake Nona as stop locations, it would be more of an express-service, in opposition to a slower light-rail or even bus rapid transit service with a stop roughly every mile and fulfilling a basic local public transportation function. Business travelers might be willing to pay a higher fare to f.e. get from the airport to the Convention Center more quickly, compared to the roughly 30 minutes of the planned light-rail alternatives.



Anderson said:


> On the OIA Connector, however, I think FEC involvement may be inevitable in some form.


Some might think, in case the options 2 or 6 are selected with bus rapid transit, it is likely there would not be much FEC involvement. Also in case the options 3 or 4 (or some might wish, hopefully 3a) with light-rail are selected, then likely there would not be much FEC involvement with the operation of a light-rail line. Except maybe to when it comes to the connections to the long-distance rail service at the new intermodal station at the Orlando International Airport.


----------



## Anderson

Just wondering, but what are the alternatives on the table?


----------



## George Harris

Anderson said:


> . . ., but I also assume that the Maglev project is DOA. . . .


I have described Maglev as a solution looking for a problem. It does look line the Tokyo to Osaka maglev will get built, but a concern with the Maglev system is its high energy consumption which is described as being roughly three times that of the Shinkansen trains, presumably on a per passenger basis. There are also some safety issues, particularly concerning passenger evacuaton, which is in generally not an issue with the Japanese system since it runs in a channel guideway, but near insoluable if not truly insoluable with the German system since the vehicle wraps around the guideway. Hint: exit from the ends only is insufficient in capacity and a side emergency walkway does not appear to be possible. Switching between tracks is far more complex and expensive than a railroad turnout, even one for very high speed.

For a short distance the very high speed potential of the maglev is more for bragging rights than reduction in run time, as most of the distance is spent accelerating or braking. Sahnghai Airport system is a good example of that. Only a few seconds are spent at the maximum speed.


----------



## beautifulplanet

Anderson said:


> Just wondering, but what are the alternatives on the table?


Regarding the OIA Connector Refresh Alternatives Analysis, there is the website mentioned above, http://www.oiaconnector.com

Clicking on "Documents & Publications" on the left, there are several PDFs, among them:

- the overview of the remaining 4 alternatives called "Four Viable Alternatives Map (posted 10/01/13)", see here:

http://www.oiaconnector.com/system/js/back/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Four_Viable_Alternatives_Map_11x17.pdf

(the red and turquoise one are BRT, the red and blue one are light-rail)

- the "Transit Operating Plans (posted 12/27/13)", showing example schedules (including headways for different times of day and days of the week) and run times for all the stops on the proposed alternatives

http://www.oiaconnector.com/system/js/back/ckfinder/userfiles/files/OIA%20Operations%20Plan%20Report_Final_121813.pdf

- and the more recent document, the "Conceptual Definition of Alternatives Report (posted 02/28/2014)", see here:

http://www.oiaconnector.com/system/js/back/ckfinder/userfiles/files/OIA%20Final%20Conceptual%20Definition%20of%20Alternatives%20Report(2)_021114.pdf

Many might have the impression that alternative 3a with light-rail going into the 436 area north of the airport, as well as going down International Drive, might be the most promising alternative. So it is interesting to read in the last document on page 10:



> An alternate alignment was suggested after meetings with stakeholders. Alternative 3a is similar to
> 
> Alternative 3 except north of OIA and in the International Drive area. After following TG Lee Boulevard, the Alternative 3a alignment turns north to follow Semoran Boulevard, then turns onto Hazeltine
> 
> National Drive, Butler National Drive and Shadowridge Drive, prior to rejoining the Alternative 3
> 
> alignment along South Conway Road. Instead of turning south on Universal Boulevard, Alternative 3a
> 
> continues along Sand Lake Road, then turns south at International Drive, before turning east onto
> 
> Destination Parkway to terminate at the Destination Parkway Transit Center.


So it might seem like alternative 3a really came into existence because involved stakeholders saw the benefits in it as well.

Now "Spring 2014" doesn't seem far away, and many might be impatient to find out what the recommended alternative might be in the end, what the concerned people of Florida as well as the involved businesses, organizations and government entities finally chose, as many might think that this project with a possible good light rail east-west connection connecting the airport and other major urban destinations along that corridor would have the potential to be a game-changer for public transportation in currently largely car-dependent Central Florida.


----------



## Scott Orlando

beautifulplanet said:


> So it might seem like alternative 3a really came into existence because involved stakeholders saw the benefits in it as well.
> 
> Now "Spring 2014" doesn't seem far away, and many might be impatient to find out what the recommended alternative might be in the end, what the concerned people of Florida as well as the involved businesses, organizations and government entities finally chose, as many might think that this project with a possible good light rail east-west connection connecting the airport and other major urban destinations along that corridor would have the potential to be a game-changer for public transportation in currently largely car-dependent Central Florida.


The 3 and 3a alternatives (If I had a vote it would be 3a), are by far the most productive routes. Nearly every area has huge ridership potential:

(1)- Airport hub. MCO will be the mother of all Orlando transport hubs.

(2)- North Airport. Becoming a small city of off airport hotels and restaurants

(3)-Sand Lake/Orange Ave. The much needed SunRail connection. This might change slightly with a direct SunRail connection from the south to the MCO South Terminal. Still a fairly busy stop even if SunRail passengers do not need to change trains to the airport. Even with direct SunRail to the airport, passengers from here would transfer to go west to I-Drive and convention area.

(4)- Florida Mall. The largest mall in Florida and growing

(5)- International Drive. Multiple high traffic stops. I would actually think a more northern route, perhaps going NW from the airport along the turnpike and joining I-Drive near Oak Ridge would produce considerably more riders. It gets closer to Universal that way and if we are going to do this lets do it right. The more western 3a route would be expensive but worth it.

(6) Convention Center. Huge complex finally gets its connection to the airport.

(7) expansion going south along I drive to SeaWorld many more hotels, shopping and getting closer to LBV area....and Disney

This potential route connects many of Orlando's tourist spots. With the introduction of SunRail, many have questioned how it will be effective without a connection to the "tourist areas". This is the answer.


----------



## pennyk

Has anyone heard or read an update as to whether SunRail will be running during the Winter Park Art Festival this weekend?


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## chrsjrcj

According to SunRail's Facebook, trains will not be running for the festival.

https://www.facebook.com/RideSunRail/photos/a.10150944667323847.443955.81225598846/10152184627553847/?type=1&reply_comment_id=11417039&total_comments=1

I guess we'll have to wait until May 1st. Already took the day off work, so I can participate in all the opening day fun.


----------



## pennyk

Thanks. I had not been following SunRail on FB. I am now. I plan to start riding when they have the "soft opening" in mid April. I will also try to ride on opening day. I can walk to the Lynx and Central station if the weather is decent.

Maybe we can have a mini gathering. :lol:


----------



## Caesar La Rock

pennyk said:


> Thanks. I had not been following SunRail on FB. I am now. I plan to start riding when they have the "soft opening" in mid April. I will also try to ride on opening day. I can walk to the Lynx and Central station if the weather is decent.
> 
> Maybe we can have a mini gathering. :lol:


Sure, I could make it, but I maybe fashionably late.


----------



## Angela1117

I'm so disappointed that the trains won't be running for the art show. That would be such a civilized way to get to the show.

Now I'm waiting on the Lynx schedule changes to try to figure out my time table for getting from the train to my office.


----------



## neroden

beautifulplanet said:


> - SunRail Phase 2 starts construction in 2015, starts operating in 2017 (if everything seems to go according to plan)


I believe Phase 2 starts construction this year (2014). There's some lack of clarity on the website, but it looks like the northern extension starts construction this year and the southern extension next year. (The northern extension was funded already, the southern extension didn't get its funding committed until this month.)


----------



## CHamilton

South Florida commuter train could offer clues about who will ride SunRail




> No one can say for certain who will ride the SunRail commuter train when it starts May 1, but a look at a similar system that has run in South Florida for 25 years could offer some clues.
> SunRail officials say they have developed no demographic model about what to expect for its riders, but transit experts contend commuter systems tend to attract so-called choice riders — in other words, passengers who own or have access to autos but take the train anyway.
> 
> That has been the case with Tri-Rail, the commuter-rail system that has run along Interstate 95 since 1989.
> 
> Of the roughly 16,000 people who ride Tri-Rail daily, 66 percent have at least one car at their home, found a survey of passengers the system conducted in 2013....
> 
> The Tri-Rail system report showed a widespread annual household-income level among riders, with 21 percent earning more than $75,000 and 37 percent bringing in between $25,000 and $50,000.
> 
> Ethnically, 34 percent of the passengers are African-American, 30 percent are white and 26 percent are Hispanic. SunRail officials say they expect the racial make-up of SunRail to reflect Central Florida, which is almost 52 percent white, nearly 27 Hispanic and 15 percent African-American, according to diversitydata.org.
> 
> SunRail could learn from Tri-Rail because of the similarities between the systems. Both were started by the state in the wake of large-scale construction projects on the region's prime highway. In South Florida, I-95 underwent a major overhaul.


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## Caesar La Rock

Check out the bus connections.

http://www.golynx.com/core/fileparse.php/97651/urlt/LNX_Lft_SunRail_WEB.pdf


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## Angela1117

So, am I right in thinking that I won't need to pay a lynx fare if I get on at the Sunrail station? That would be great!

Even if I did have to pay a bus fare I'm still ahead of the game not driving!


----------



## beautifulplanet

I wish for this post to be in the correct place here, in case it is not, please move or delete.

The thread title says "Free SunRail rides coming soon!", and now they are coming really soon - tomorrow is May 1st! 

Big day for rail transportation in Central Florida.

Here are some press reports, because of the start of service tomorrow, that also contained some information not known to me yet (though possibly already known to others  ):

SunRail brings new vision for transit in Daytona Beach
by Mark Harper
Published: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 at 5:30 a.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 at 8:50 a.m.
http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140428/NEWS/140429441/1040?Title=SunRail-brings-new-vision-for-transit-in-Daytona-Beach



> But that [sunRail to Daytona Beach] will take many more millions of dollars, starting with a $2.5-million, 18-month study that will look at how many riders might use such a link, what type of train might work best, where it would connect with SunRail and where it would stop in east Volusia.
> 
> Volusia County Council members gave their support this month and kicked in about $500,000 for the study.


Of course, nearly everyone might be aware of the fact that this is only a study, still it might seem promising to many that at least the option of adding more rail service to Central Florida is being seriously studied.

The following piece of news is already 1 and a half months old. Still I was not able to find any more updated information on that topic. Many people might wish for commuter rail and rail in general to be as successful as possible. In order for that to happen, and also for the transit-oriented development to happen as well as to be good neighbors to the human beings and businesses already along the route, many might think it would be a good thing if quiet zones could be in place for the whole corridor (as it is a densely populated, at least suburban area). So then reading that as part of a $1+ billion project, it was not possible to include the $15 million necessary to silence the 100-decibel-horns, might be a disappointment to quiet a lot of people.



> The MetroPlan Orlando transportation planning organization completed a study of the 96 intersections where, by law, horns must be blown to warn motorists and others that a train is coming. However, if gates, signals and other enhancements are added to each crossing, the horns won’t have to be used. That type of enhancement for the 96 intersections would cost $15.5 million — money MetroPlan Orlando doesn’t have.


see here:

Mar 18, 2014, 7:10am EDT
Silencing SunRail horns comes with a hefty price
by Matthew Richardson
http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/morning_call/2014/03/silencing-sunrail-horns-comes-with-a-hefty-price.html
Another article about this in the Orlando Sentinel at least included that four grade crossings next to the Florida Hospital campus in North Orlando near the hospital were indeed modified for a cost of $4 million to create a quiet zone already now. Which seems like a really good first step. The Orlando Sentinel article also explains how SunRail is not as loud as CSX trains, and personally I can believe that, as the CSX trains were still audible at the apartment complex my wife formerly lived in, 1.8 miles away from the train tracks! Now many might hope that the funds can be found to expand the quiet zones, as they would silence both SunRail and CSX, along the whole rest of the route.

So no matter how loud or quiet the ride, at least tomorrow finally this new level of transportation in Central Florida is available to be used by the public.

Let's see what the reports will be like in the next days, about the first days of service.


----------



## Angela1117

I'm disappointed that the bus connection schedule for my situation isn't really convenient since the bus leaves the station 10 minutes before the train I would take arrives. I feel like since the start of the bus route is at the train station can't the bus leave the station after the train arrives?

Taking an earlier train to catch the earlier bus isn't appealing to me at this point so now my hopes are that I-4 will be a little less crowded if others are taking the train.


----------



## beautifulplanet

Many will be happy that it seems the first morning of the new service was a success. Besides the one grade crossing, some of the water fountains at stations, and some bus connections, everything apparently went pretty much as planned. And there probably should be hope that whatever is not perfect yet still can be improved in the next days and weeks.

Here's one first article about it:

SunRail debuts; riders

By Dan Tracy, Orlando Sentinel
May 1, 2014

See here: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/os-sunrail-commuter-train-debuts-20140430,0,5689028,full.story

Among other things, it says:



> At the DeBary SunRail station, the parking lot was nearly full almost from the start; in Lake Mary, there were about 200 cars in the parking lot.


That might seem like a good sign to many, that the parking lots were well used.

And also:



> The early morning runs, starting just after 5 a.m., had sparse ridership and much of it appeared to be retirees and people getting on just to experience the first fixed-rail mass transit system in Orlando's history.
> 
> But commuters began filling in as the more traditional ride-to-work times between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m. approached. Some of the trains heading downtown were standing-room only.


This might sound good to many as well, that today's riders were not only those wanting to be part of this day in history, but also commuters on their way to work...


----------



## pennyk

I am on the train right now. It is packed and late.


----------



## Railroad Bill

Penny,

Is that Jim Hudson back there with the black hat and glasses? 

Glad you are representing AU on the first Sunrail trains. Hope to get a chance to ride them next time we get to FLA.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I wish I could afford to be in Orlando to ride this but only you wealthy Yankees are able to afford trips to Florida! LOL

Bet it was packed Penny, the Redline here in Austin was like this the First Week when rides were Free and several AUers twisted my arm to ride!


----------



## pennyk

jimhudson said:


> I wish I could afford to be in Orlando to ride this but only you wealthy Yankees are able to afford trips to Florida! LOL
> 
> Bet it was packed Penny, the Redline here in Austin was like this the First Week when rides were Free and several AUers twisted my arm to ride!


Yes, Jim, it was packed. In fact, it was too packed for me to travel the entire route. I only went from downtown to the southern terminus and back to downtown. I am thinking about going the opposite direction tomorrow morning (which will be a longer ride).


----------



## the_traveler

i too wish I could be in Orlando - but today it was in the 60's up in Red Sox Nation! (Even many Floridans - the Tampa Bay Rays - are enjoying the New England charm. They are playing the Red Sox.) ^_^


----------



## Scott Orlando

It was packed. And the complainers (probably the ones who call it a boondoggle) are quick to throw it under the bus (pun intended). But I rode Lake Mary to DeBary, the north terminus, and back to Lake Mary. It was packed going north SRO. Going south I found a seat with a view out the front window. Memo to the complainers: There is only one afternoon train and it makes two round trips north and south. Because its the first day, there were many just there to ride and soak in day one (guilty). Everyone was nice. The train is clean and modern. It was really cool. Everyone was happy. There will be a few commuters that will rasie hell, becuase at a few stops they couldnt take on more passengers (so I heard, not on my train). But, for a brand new commuter train working on day one it was pretty good. I have seen a few trains downtown in the past hour very close to on time. The one afternnon train was 30-40 minutes late at one point. No big deal. First day of operation. When the free ride expires May 16 and the real commuters settle in, it will run like a watch.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

I did the first northbound run at Lynx Central Station. The train came in on time at 6:28. We came into Debary early and left Debary on time. Anyone that saw the Sunrail maintenance facility, they still have the DMU set from Tri-Rail.

One of the conductors I spoke to said they're debating on whether they will keep it or not. The Votran buses at Debary were waiting for the train. Lynx buses were also waiting at other stations too. 

At the Sand Lake station, besides Lynx they also had TranStar bus service. IDK much about that yet. So the connecting buses worked out there today. It did get crowded later on though.


----------



## pennyk

I am on the northbound now. It is not crowded. Unfortunately, I will not go all the way to debary since it will be a 2 hour wait for the southbound. I will detrain in Lake Mary.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

I did the entire ride from Debary to Sand Lake. Here is the video, taken on May 1st.


----------



## pennyk

I am on sunrail northbound right now heading for DeBary. There are plenty of seats available.


----------



## Anderson

beautifulplanet said:


> I wish for this post to be in the correct place here, in case it is not, please move or delete.
> 
> The thread title says "Free SunRail rides coming soon!", and now they are coming really soon - tomorrow is May 1st!
> 
> Big day for rail transportation in Central Florida.
> 
> Here are some press reports, because of the start of service tomorrow, that also contained some information not known to me yet (though possibly already known to others  ):
> 
> SunRail brings new vision for transit in Daytona Beach
> 
> by Mark Harper
> 
> Published: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 at 5:30 a.m.
> 
> Last Modified: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 at 8:50 a.m.
> 
> http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140428/NEWS/140429441/1040?Title=SunRail-brings-new-vision-for-transit-in-Daytona-Beach
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that [sunRail to Daytona Beach] will take many more millions of dollars, starting with a $2.5-million, 18-month study that will look at how many riders might use such a link, what type of train might work best, where it would connect with SunRail and where it would stop in east Volusia.
> 
> Volusia County Council members gave their support this month and kicked in about $500,000 for the study.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, nearly everyone might be aware of the fact that this is only a study, still it might seem promising to many that at least the option of adding more rail service to Central Florida is being seriously studied.
> 
> The following piece of news is already 1 and a half months old. Still I was not able to find any more updated information on that topic. Many people might wish for commuter rail and rail in general to be as successful as possible. In order for that to happen, and also for the transit-oriented development to happen as well as to be good neighbors to the human beings and businesses already along the route, many might think it would be a good thing if quiet zones could be in place for the whole corridor (as it is a densely populated, at least suburban area). So then reading that as part of a $1+ billion project, it was not possible to include the $15 million necessary to silence the 100-decibel-horns, might be a disappointment to quiet a lot of people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The MetroPlan Orlando transportation planning organization completed a study of the 96 intersections where, by law, horns must be blown to warn motorists and others that a train is coming. However, if gates, signals and other enhancements are added to each crossing, the horns won’t have to be used. That type of enhancement for the 96 intersections would cost $15.5 million — money MetroPlan Orlando doesn’t have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> see here:
> 
> Mar 18, 2014, 7:10am EDT
> Silencing SunRail horns comes with a hefty price
> by Matthew Richardson
> http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/morning_call/2014/03/silencing-sunrail-horns-comes-with-a-hefty-price.html
> Another article about this in the Orlando Sentinel at least included that four grade crossings next to the Florida Hospital campus in North Orlando near the hospital were indeed modified for a cost of $4 million to create a quiet zone already now. Which seems like a really good first step. The Orlando Sentinel article also explains how SunRail is not as loud as CSX trains, and personally I can believe that, as the CSX trains were still audible at the apartment complex my wife formerly lived in, 1.8 miles away from the train tracks! Now many might hope that the funds can be found to expand the quiet zones, as they would silence both SunRail and CSX, along the whole rest of the route.
> 
> So no matter how loud or quiet the ride, at least tomorrow finally this new level of transportation in Central Florida is available to be used by the public.
> 
> Let's see what the reports will be like in the next days, about the first days of service.
Click to expand...

Looking over the story on Daytona getting connected, that looks like a potential mess. I do agree that a line along or near I-4 would probably add a good deal of ridership...but there are almost too many areas jockeying for a line in Central Florida to see that happening soon. All Aboard Florida also provides some interesting possibilities on that front...I have to wonder how a hypothetical AAF stop in Daytona would interact with a commuter rail project, for example.


----------



## beautifulplanet

Many people might be thrilled to see SunRail having a good start of public service so far (including a few things that are not perfect yet, but one could think that has to be expected in the beginning).

A recent press report seemed very interesting to me. In WESH's written coverage today (not part of the video), it says:



> Pat Heckel walked five minutes from home to catch the SunRail headed to downtown Orlando.
> 
> "I'm all in for the SunRail," said Heckel. "I actually sold my car right before the SunRail began so I didn't have to worry about my car payments, gas and insurance. The whole nine yards, so we're saving a whole lot of money."


To me, that sounds amazing. It's great that SunRail would already seem like such a good transportation option to some, that they would completely get rid of their car already now (with all the limitations still existing, like no weekend service etc). I would not have expected to read a story like that. This is exactly the stories though that many might think should be one of the goals of new rail service, here it is also interesting to read that the person was actually able to walk within 5 minutes from their home to the rail station. Such walkability should also be the goal of more transit-oriented development along the route's stations, and luckily nearly all of the cities involved already have concrete plans for transit-oriented development around the station locations.

In addition, in the video coverage featured on the same page, it is being said that SunRail might possibly add a third car to the consists (does SunRail currently even have enough rolling stock for that?) and that "tweaks" might be conducted if passenger demand stays this high also in revenue service (now one could wonder, could "tweaks" mean more scheduled morning or mid-day runs?). It seems like it could be interesting to continue to follow the future developments regarding SunRail... 

See and read here: http://www.wesh.com/news/sunrail-adds-chase-trains-to-ease-overcrowding/25830138


----------



## beautifulplanet

Another interesting article about SunRail. 

Here, Florida Department of Transportation official Noranne Downs answers many criticisms and suggestions for improvements voiced by passengers since the start of service...

SunRail scrambles to improve commuter experience
By Dan Tracy, Orlando Sentinel

May 7, 2014

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2014-05-07/news/os-sunrail-lessons-learned-20140507_1_sunrail-five-trains-commuter-trains


----------



## MattW

The real test is going to be when the free promotion thing goes away (is it free rides, or just $2 off? The article isn't clear). I hope they have high ridership, but I have a suspicion that it won't be the crush numbers they're seeing now.


----------



## beautifulplanet

MattW said:


> The real test is going to be when the free promotion thing goes away (is it free rides, or just $2 off? The article isn't clear).


That is correct, that paragraph of the article was not clear.

All rides are free, up to May 16. Starting May 19, regular fares have to be paid ($2 base one-way fare, plus additional $1 for every county line crossed).

In my humble opinion, this is already a real test, because it would be great if both the commuters on their ride to work and the people just trying it out for fun had a good experience now during the free ride period. So I wish that there won't be many more of those delays, and cars won't be so overcrowded that riders cannot get on, because from public comments or social media it seems like some already quit the idea of using SunRail, because when they did or wanted to, it did not work out so well, and that would be sad, so of course it's good to see that the Florida Department of Transportation is dealing with all the feedback they got.

And when the free ride period ends, then IMO it's the real rest test.  It seems like it would be really important that service works without delays and hiccups, because now when commuters exhausted from work come home hours late due to delays, one can say, at least it was for free, but for a revenue service, the frustrations then would possibly be even greater.

My wife, currently in Florida, told how she saw the SunRail trains all over the place, but she has not had a chance to ride it yet, and I wondered if maybe that's ok when she will try it later, as with the overcrowding and possible delays she might experience now, she's possibly gonna get a better experience at a later point of time. 



MattW said:


> I hope they have high ridership, but I have a suspicion that it won't be the crush numbers they're seeing now.


Yesterday there was a blog entry by the Orlando Business Journal with the ridership numbers for the first 5 days:



> Estimated boardings Thursday, May 1: 10,819
> 
> Estimated boardings Friday, May 2: 10,496Estimated boardings Monday, May 5: 8,586
> 
> Estimated boardings Tuesday, May 6: 9,761
> 
> Estimated boardings Wednesday, May 7: 10,437


source:

By the numbers: A look at SunRail’s first five days of service

May 8, 2014, 11:49am EDT

by Megan Ribbens, Web Producer-Orlando Business Journal

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2014/05/by-the-numbers-a-look-at-sunrail-s-first-five-days.html

The "suspicion that it won't be the crush numbers" seen now, once revenue numbers starts, is probably correct, still many might think SunRail will at least reach the passenger numbers originally estimated, and then by many, SunRail might already be considered a success.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

With that low a fare structure, I doubt it would effect demand an iota.


----------



## Anderson

There's going to be at least some effect, since "free" will always attract more interest than even a nominal cost.

That said, I do wonder if there might not be some pressure for Sunrail to look into buying another few cars to run longer sets if demand holds reasonably well.


----------



## cirdan

pennyk said:


> I am on the northbound now. It is not crowded. Unfortunately, I will not go all the way to debary since it will be a 2 hour wait for the southbound. I will detrain in Lake Mary.


wow, that really does look nice. I hope its a success.


----------



## beautifulplanet

More interesting press reports about SunRail.  If these posts about different aspects of SunRail are in the wrong place here, or too numerous, please move or delete. 

_SunRail paper ticket one-way or round-trip fares 25 and 50 cents respectively more expensive compared to paying with SunCard_

On Monday, rides will not be free anymore. Passengers will have to pay. There are two ways to pay.
1) Using a rechargable SunCard, or
2) buying a paper ticket for one-time use (single or round-trip only, no weekly or monthly passes on paper tickets).

The rechargable SunCard costs $5 to buy, to then pay fares with it.
This week the Florida Department of Transportation revealed when activating the vending machins at stations for paid service next week, that paper ticket fares would be 25 cents (one-way) or 50 cents (round-trip) more expensive than fares paid with SunCard.

F.e., the SunRail one-way fare within one county is $2, when paid with SunCard.

With a paper ticket, it would be $2.25.

That the ticket price for a cash fare is higher is in line with other rail systems around the world using modern rechargable fare media.

For example, the rechargable fare card in London, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is the Oyster card.

For the London Underground, the zone 1 Oyster fare is 2.20GBP, while the cash fare (paper ticket) is 4.70GBP.

And it is surely more effective when passengers use reloadable fare media than standing in long lines in front of vending machines to buy paper tickets, many people might think that this strategy seems to make sense. And that it is already used by successful rail systems, f.e. according to Transport for London's Annual Report for 2012, the London Underground even had a farebox recovery of 91% while having an annual ridership of 1.23 billion.

With the knowledge of things like that, many people might not be surprised that it would left to My Fox Orlando / WOFL to come up with something absurd like the higher fare for paper tickets being a ticket tax.



> SunRail riders may be in for a shock once free service ends next week and pay service begins, in the form of a "ticket tax" [...]


To some, the desire of some news outlets to turn everything charged for something somehow publicly run or regulated into a "tax" is unsettling, especially since it seems like in other cities nobody yet called a higher ticket price for paper tickets a tax (not in Boston, where a CharlieTicket/cash fare is $2.50, but the CharlieCard fare $2.00; certainly not in London, and no case in any other city is known to me), and there's no reason why they would, when it's precisely just a higher fare for paper tickets, and not remotely any kind of tax approved by any kind of legislature...

Source:

Riders to see added SunRail fee
Posted: May 14, 2014 2:13 AM Updated: May 14, 2014 2:13 AM
By Mike Synan, Reporter
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/25508586/riders-to-see-added-sunrail-fee


----------



## beautifulplanet

_Even in the final week before paid service, the DeBary parking lot is still filled up to the last spot_

source:

SunRail: First, you must park
By Mark Lane
Published: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 at 4:22 p.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 9:04 a.m.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140513/COLUMNS/140519772?Title=SunRail-First-you-must-park&tc=ar

Some might wonder: Did the author of this article, Mr. Lane, not hear about Votran's free shuttles from nearby Gemini Springs Park parking lot and from Deltona Plaza?


----------



## beautifulplanet

_SunRail "commuter rail" also brings customers to businesses around stations, f.e. Winter Park..._

SunRail riders pack Winter Park restaurants, businesses
Posted: 9:10 p.m. Tuesday, May 13, 2014
WFTV
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/sunrail-riders-pack-winter-park-restaurants-busine/nfwTs/


----------



## beautifulplanet

_Weekend service (or any additional service during mid-day, evenings etc.) would need extra funding_



> The state Department of Transportation has a 10-year, $195 million contract with Bombardier to operate SunRail. That contract is based on the current schedule. Add weekend service and you have to add more money to the contract to pay for conductors, fuel, cleaning and other costs of running a train system.
> 
> Which isn't cheap.



Reading this, it appears more unlikely that any additional runs at all will be added to the schedule in the next weeks or months, because the Department of Transportation (or theoretically the counties, which would have an even harder time allocating any resources) would have to provide extra funding.

Up to now, one might have thought that the operating contract with Bombardier possibly included more runs, but as the schedule was still "currently being tested and subject to change", as it reads on SunRail's official website, those additional runs in the contract just have not been implemented yet. But to the contrary, if all that is in the contract is those 17 southbound runs, 17 northbound runs, Monday to Fridays only, then it seems logical that the Department of Transportation already had to pay extra for the additional unscheduled mid-day "chase train" they started operating Monday of last week.

source:

SunRail riders asking 'Why no weekend service?'
by Mike Lafferty, Orlando Sentinel
3:55 p.m. EDT, May 7, 2014
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/ride-with-me/os-sunrail-riders-want-weekend-service-20140507,0,3971737.post


----------



## Scott Orlando

By the numbers SunRail has been a great success. Toppping 10k riders per day for a startup is impressive. There have been overcrowding issues and delays, which would seem natural for intial running. On one trip I made, there was a small school field trip on an already very overcrowded train. They were shocked they had to stand. On another train was a large group of seniors just "looking for fun". We all know the high ridership is normal for intial service of a system and,of course, higher with free service. As many have stated here, we really need some time to evaluate the service. Once free rides end we will have a better grasp on the long term "yes-its-here-to-stay" situation. SunRail did finally start triple car service on the lone afternoon train and peak rush trains. I may have just missed it but _I have not seen the DMU in the yard recently_. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Overall, its great to see this reaction. My fear was empty trains and no one cared. Full trains and lots of talk is good. Full trains and lots of talk leads to more cars and more frequent trains. Full trains and lots of talk leads to "why doesnt it go here" and new routes. It takes time. Which makes me wonder about the local reporter who sold his car. Really? This isnt NYC or London. The line is good on weekdays and the buses are ok but _One line does not a true system make!_ Baby steps...

Since this thread has run its course and soon SunRail will not be free, perhaps Penny can create a new thread "SunRail shines" or something....


----------



## pennyk

Scott Orlando said:


> By the numbers SunRail has been a great success. Toppping 10k riders per day for a startup is impressive. There have been overcrowding issues and delays, which would seem natural for intial running. On one trip I made, there was a small school field trip on an already very overcrowded train. They were shocked they had to stand. On another train was a large group of seniors just "looking for fun". We all know the high ridership is normal for intial service of a system and,of course, higher with free service. As many have stated here, we really need some time to evaluate the service. Once free rides end we will have a better grasp on the long term "yes-its-here-to-stay" situation. SunRail did finally start triple car service on the lone afternoon train and peak rush trains. I may have just missed it but _I have not seen the DMU in the yard recently_. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Overall, its great to see this reaction. My fear was empty trains and no one cared. Full trains and lots of talk is good. Full trains and lots of talk leads to more cars and more frequent trains. Full trains and lots of talk leads to "why doesnt it go here" and new routes. It takes time. Which makes me wonder about the local reporter who sold his car. Really? This isnt NYC or London. The line is good on weekdays and the buses are ok but _One line does not a true system make!_ Baby steps...
> 
> Since this thread has run its course and soon SunRail will not be free, perhaps Penny can create a new thread "SunRail shines" or something....


 Hopefully, I will be able to create such a thread.

I rode SunRail 3 times and each time was crowded. It took me 3 days to "ace" the route. On my last trip, I was sitting with a commuter from Lake Mary to downtown. He was a civil engineer who was working on the I-4 construction project. I thought that was pretty funny - he absolutely knows how bad I-4 is and will get during construction.

I was on the northbound Silver Meteor last Friday, and while Shanghai and I were eating a late lunch, we noticed the extremely large crowds on the SunRail platforms. I think that was the day with the largest crowds.

Bottom line - I am also pleased with the reception SunRail has received. I was amazed at how many people were riding a train for the very first time.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

I heard more locomotives and railcars are being ordered. Information came from someone, who asked one of the conductors.


----------



## Anderson

While I'd have to regard that as hearsay, it seems like plausible hearsay. I suspect they'll give it a few weeks before dropping a lot of money on equipment, if just to be able to do the order all at once, but I do suspect we're going to see a supplemental equipment order.

It also seems likely that at least a few more weekday runs will get added. Weekends may be a trickier proposition, but are probably going to happen eventually. Actually, the biggest medium-term issue may well be parking!


----------



## cirdan

beautifulplanet said:


> And it is surely more effective when passengers use reloadable fare media than standing in long lines in front of vending machines to buy paper tickets, many people might think that this strategy seems to make sense. And that it is already used by successful rail systems, f.e. according to Transport for London's Annual Report for 2012, the London Underground even had a farebox recovery of 91% while having an annual ridership of 1.23 billion.


Sorry to be obtuse here, but I guess I haven't fully understood which is why I'm asking.

The Sunrail card is not really the same as Oyster is it? I mean, you still need to go to a machine to recharge it as opposed to being able to recharge it online. Or have I missed something? So in this respect there may still be a reason to queue in front of ticket machines, although admittedly not before every trip.

London Transport is currently closing down all but a handful of its ticket offices as Oyster has been such a success that people are no no longer buying tickets from staffed windows. Many people are worried that this will mean more de-staffing of stations and nobody to ask if you're confused.


----------



## beautifulplanet

cirdan said:


> Sorry to be obtuse here, but I guess I haven't fully understood which is why I'm asking.
> 
> The Sunrail card is not really the same as Oyster is it? I mean, you still need to go to a machine to recharge it as opposed to being able to recharge it online. Or have I missed something? So in this respect there may still be a reason to queue in front of ticket machines, although admittedly not before every trip.


Yes, of course the SunRail Card is not 100% the same as Oyster Card offered by Transport for London. The basic strategy to use reloadable fare media though might seem similar to many.

It seems like there would be higher efficiencies especially with occasional riders. For example, there would be someone who rides SunRail just once a week, within one county, one-way. With the reloadable SunCard, the person f.e. could put $20 on their SunCard, so there is just one transaction necessary, while if they bought paper-tickets each time, there would be 10 transactions necessary. Cash transactions always include a significant additional transaction cost - it seems like there might be a reason that SunRail stations include 4 vending machines, but 3 of them only accept card payments, and only 1 of them cash and card payments. Card payments also include a transaction cost, but if a 2-dollar-something ticket was bought 10 times, the total transaction costs are much higher compared to one $20 card payment. In addition, there is added convenience for the customer by not having to go to the vending machine 10 times, instead just having to top up his SunCard one time. The vending machines then also are used less often for the same or even an increased number of passenger rides, hence more efficiently. Then there is the aspect of customer loyalty: If one already possesses a card for some kind of store or service, one might be more likely to frequent that store or service. This might also be the reason why so many company offer customer cards, and this could be true to SunRail as well. Especially with occasional riders for SunRail, it seems they might be more likely in a scenario "I already got the SunCard, I already put money onto it, so now I'm just gonna ride, and tap on, and tap off" vs. "I possibly could ride now, but I don't even know if I have cash on me, or if my cards are accepted, and first I have to find out how to work with that vending machine to purchase my ticket anyway, and then I also have to allow extra time before departure to arrive early in order to have enough time to buy my ticket first..."

So there might be a good reason for SunRail or other rail operators to use reloadable fare media (or fare discount cards or frequent traveller programs etc.), and also put incentives in place, to encourage to use of them.

And possibly some of the press reports are wrong (that does indeed happen sometimes), but there were statements made in them that one should indeed be able to load or reload the SunCard online.

For example, here:



> Those who already have a SunCard can *go to the website* to register their cards to guard against fraud, theft or loss, and *to load or reload SunCards*. (Emphasis added.)


Source:

SunRail tickets now being sold

Published On: May 11 2014 05:43:53 PM EDT Updated On: May 12 2014 05:37:58 PM EDT

by Dawn Brooks, Online Editor, Producer, WKMG Local 6

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/sunrail-tickets-available-monday/25924078


----------



## beautifulplanet

cirdan said:


> The Sunrail card is not really the same as Oyster is it? I mean, you still need to go to a machine to recharge it as opposed to being able to recharge it online. Or have I missed something? So in this respect there may still be a reason to queue in front of ticket machines, although admittedly not before every trip.



Meanwhile, I looked it up on the SunRail's own website, and unless SunRail provides incorrect information themselves, then it seems like indeed it should be possible to reload SunCards online. Not being able to provide a deeplink into SunRail.com, still this is what can be found on the "Fares & Passes" -> "Reloadable SunCards" page, in the very bottom of the page in the "Managing Your Account" section:



> SunCard holders will be able to check their balance and *reload their card *with a new plan or prepaid value through any of the ticket vending machines located at the SunRail stations, or *online 24/7 at www.SunRail.com*. (Emphasis added.)


----------



## cirdan

Is the Sunrail card like Oyster in as far as that you can go anywhere with it and the fare is correctly calculated?

The disadvantage of this is that you need to tap in AND tap out so the card knows what to charge you.

The alternative is that you tell the card what trip you are making when you buy the card. For a passenger making several different trips regularly, this would require holdings several cards with a risk of confusion.


----------



## beautifulplanet

cirdan said:


> Is the Sunrail card like Oyster in as far as that you can go anywhere with it and the fare is correctly calculated?


Yes, the SunCard is similar to the Oyster card in regards to that when used as a "prepaid value", you need to tap on, and tap off, and the correct fare is being calculated.

For example if you tap on in Altamonte Springs, and tap off at Sand Lake Road, the SunCard will deduct $3 as one county line was crossed, so $1 is being added to the $2 base-fare.

The SunCard is still different compared to Oyster in several ways, some of them are:

1) Oyster offers a daily cap, still so far I did not see any information about a maximum daily price charged on "prepaid value" SunCards.

2) Oyster is offered through several different modes of public transportation - besides being valid in the London Underground, it's also valid in London Buses, London Overground, DLR (Docklands Light Railway), Tramlink, Emirates Air Line (cable car) and National Rail (within Greater London only). Many might think this difference cannot be seen as a shortcoming of the SunCard though, as Central Florida does not offer so many different modes of public transportation in the first place (yet  ).

3) Oyster charges a 5 GBP deposit, while SunCard is bought for $5. So an Oyster card can be returned, and the rider will receive the 5 GBP back. Any information about returning a SunCard once it is bought is not known to me yet. 

4) Oyster offers an "auto top-up" function, when 20 or 40GBP are automatically loaded onto the card, once it has less than 10GBP on it. This offers even more convenience for occasional riders. So far, no information is known for me, that "prepaid value" SunCard is offered with an automatic re-load function.



cirdan said:


> The disadvantage of this is that you need to tap in AND tap out so the card knows what to charge you.


Yes, also with SunCard on SunRail, one needs to tap in and also tap out. With the Oyster card, there is a penalty for not tapping out. How the exact process is with SunRail if riders "forget" to tap out, is not known to me yet.  If reloadable fare media and the mandatory tap out really is a disadvantage, could be the subject of debate. Sure riders have to get used to it, but many might think it could also be a very effective and convenient way to travel.



cirdan said:


> The alternative is that you tell the card what trip you are making when you buy the card. For a passenger making several different trips regularly, this would require holdings several cards with a risk of confusion.


At least some might think that this alternative would be not as good, compared to the current tap on, tap off process...


----------



## battalion51

Anderson said:


> While I'd have to regard that as hearsay, it seems like plausible hearsay. I suspect they'll give it a few weeks before dropping a lot of money on equipment, if just to be able to do the order all at once, but I do suspect we're going to see a supplemental equipment order.
> 
> It also seems likely that at least a few more weekday runs will get added. Weekends may be a trickier proposition, but are probably going to happen eventually. Actually, the biggest medium-term issue may well be parking!


I'd think in the short term it's far more plausible that you'd see Tri-Rail equipment re-deployed to Central Florida. With the Rotem's fully online now there's got to be a surplus of coaches and cab cars down there. Also I've seen some videos out there with the new BL36PHs running in revenue service, so that could mean that there will be F-40s/GP49s that are available. It doesn't seem like road power is the problem based on what I'm reading though, coach space seems to be the main problem.


----------



## beautifulplanet

beautifulplanet said:


> _Even in the final week before paid service, the DeBary parking lot is still filled up to the last spot_
> 
> source:
> 
> SunRail: First, you must park
> 
> By Mark Lane
> 
> Published: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 at 4:22 p.m.
> 
> Last Modified: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 at 9:04 a.m.
> 
> http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140513/COLUMNS/140519772?Title=SunRail-First-you-must-park&tc=ar
> 
> Some might wonder: Did the author of this article, Mr. Lane, not hear about Votran's free shuttles from nearby Gemini Springs Park parking lot and from Deltona Plaza?


Now already starting to reply to my own posts  - Mr. Land obviously ended up hearing about Gemini Springs Park after all, as meanwhile he parked there, used the free shuttle bus, and actually rode SunRail, and again wrote about it in today's column in the Daytona Beach News-Journal.

Some other press reports say that SunRail now added a third car to three of its five trains, but stopped running the chase train. Some might think it's still kind of unfortunate FDOT was not able yet to fix the issues of overcrowding (turning potential passengers away, hopefully not for good) and delays. As the article says:



> Once the train stopped at Sanford, the train’s first floor was standing room only. After the Lake Mary station, people were standing chest to chest on the lower two levels. By the time we reached Altamonte Springs, some of those on the platform looked at the doorway, looked at the people standing there, and decided they had other things to do.


And:



> It turned out, I had more [time] than that because northbound trains were running 35 minutes late. The voice on the loudspeaker said with feeling that SunRail was very sorry for this.
> 
> When the train arrived [at the Winter Park station], its doors opened to reveal a solid wall of people. I wedged into the last few inches left and the train pulled put out, leaving a handful of unhappy travelers behind.


Reading this, some might wish there would have been a way, even just temporarily for the free rider period, for FDOT to have been able to add more cars to more trains, or do something else, in order to not have this kind of overcrowding and in order to not leave unhappy potential riders behind.

Source:

SunRail and the lure of a $11.75 cup of coffee

By Mark Lane

Published: Thursday, May 15, 2014 at 2:27 p.m.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140515/COLUMNS/140519663?Title=SunRail-and-the-lure-of-a-11-75-cup-of-coffee


----------



## cirdan

beautifulplanet said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the Sunrail card like Oyster in as far as that you can go anywhere with it and the fare is correctly calculated?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the SunCard is similar to the Oyster card in regards to that when used as a "prepaid value", you need to tap on, and tap off, and the correct fare is being calculated.
> 
> For example if you tap on in Altamonte Springs, and tap off at Sand Lake Road, the SunCard will deduct $3 as one county line was crossed, so $1 is being added to the $2 base-fare.
> 
> The SunCard is still different compared to Oyster in several ways, some of them are:
> 
> 1) Oyster offers a daily cap, still so far I did not see any information about a maximum daily price charged on "prepaid value" SunCards.
> 
> 2) Oyster is offered through several different modes of public transportation - besides being valid in the London Underground, it's also valid in London Buses, London Overground, DLR (Docklands Light Railway), Tramlink, Emirates Air Line (cable car) and National Rail (within Greater London only). Many might think this difference cannot be seen as a shortcoming of the SunCard though, as Central Florida does not offer so many different modes of public transportation in the first place (yet  ).
> 
> 3) Oyster charges a 5 GBP deposit, while SunCard is bought for $5. So an Oyster card can be returned, and the rider will receive the 5 GBP back. Any information about returning a SunCard once it is bought is not known to me yet.
> 
> 4) Oyster offers an "auto top-up" function, when 20 or 40GBP are automatically loaded onto the card, once it has less than 10GBP on it. This offers even more convenience for occasional riders. So far, no information is known for me, that "prepaid value" SunCard is offered with an automatic re-load function.
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The disadvantage of this is that you need to tap in AND tap out so the card knows what to charge you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, also with SunCard on SunRail, one needs to tap in and also tap out. With the Oyster card, there is a penalty for not tapping out. How the exact process is with SunRail if riders "forget" to tap out, is not known to me yet.  If reloadable fare media and the mandatory tap out really is a disadvantage, could be the subject of debate. Sure riders have to get used to it, but many might think it could also be a very effective and convenient way to travel.
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The alternative is that you tell the card what trip you are making when you buy the card. For a passenger making several different trips regularly, this would require holdings several cards with a risk of confusion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At least some might think that this alternative would be not as good, compared to the current tap on, tap off process...
Click to expand...

Thanks for that info. It sounds well thought out.

Are the stations open access, or are there barriers? With barriers its more difficult to forget to tap out, but that would require a lot of extra fences plus also potential issues on the stations that are shared with Amtrak.


----------



## beautifulplanet

cirdan said:


> Thanks for that info. It sounds well thought out.
> 
> Are the stations open access, or are there barriers? With barriers its more difficult to forget to tap out, but that would require a lot of extra fences plus also potential issues on the stations that are shared with Amtrak.


The SunRail stations are open access. There are no barriers. Construction of barriers would probably indeed have been difficult, and many might think it was probably the right choice for FDOT not to build any.  Also on London Overground, there were no barriers at all, even with Oyster in use; only recently some select London Overground stations received barriers, and it's still not planned for most of them...

There were press reports in the meantime, and if I understood it correctly, then in case riders forget to tap off, all that will happen is that the maximum fare of $4 is going to be deducted from their "prepaid value" SunCard, even if they just traveled within one or two counties, so the fare actually would have been only $2 or $3.

Today, first day of paid SunRail service. Will be interesting to see how everything goes..


----------



## jebr

beautifulplanet said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that info. It sounds well thought out.
> 
> Are the stations open access, or are there barriers? With barriers its more difficult to forget to tap out, but that would require a lot of extra fences plus also potential issues on the stations that are shared with Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> The SunRail stations are open access. There are no barriers. Construction of barriers would probably indeed have been difficult, and many might think it was probably the right choice for FDOT not to build any.  Also on London Overground, there were no barriers at all, even with Oyster in use; only recently some select London Overground stations received barriers, and it's still not planned for most of them...
Click to expand...

Instead of "tapping out", I wonder if they could just set up two to three "tap" locations at each station, one for each county. That way you just tap your reader on the correct county and it deducts the correct amount. They do something similar on the Northstar here at Target Field Station (they don't do it at the outlying stations because on the way "out" from downtown there's only one fare rate for intermediate station travel, and most people on the way "in" travel to downtown.) You can change the reader to the correct station as well if you're only going to one of the intermediate stations on the way in to downtown.


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## MattW

What happens if someone has the fare for one zone, but travels two? Does it deduct the card into a negative balance?


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## chrsjrcj

The SunCard system is similar to what Tri-Rail uses, except you can use Tri-Rail's card on Miami Dade Transit (and eventually Broward Transit and Palm Tran). Since I'm not a frequent Tri-Rail rider, I always opt for a paper ticket, which fortunately does not come with an added fee.


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## neroden

beautifulplanet said:


> 3) Oyster charges a 5 GBP deposit, while SunCard is bought for $5. So an Oyster card can be returned, and the rider will receive the 5 GBP back. Any information about returning a SunCard once it is bought is not known to me yet.


This in particularly is an extremely dumb move. It will keep people buying paper tickets. Forever. (Like chrsjrcj does on Tri-Rail.)

London's "refundable deposit" system means *everyone* is switching to Oyster.


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