# The Ocean - Changes could be coming in November



## NS VIA Fan (Feb 7, 2020)

The Ocean could be in Jeopardy. Scroll down to Item #6 here:

https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/how-many-different-ways-can-you-say-short-term-gain-for-long-term-pain/#6. The Ocean in jeopardy

.....and changes could be coming in November.

VIA will no longer be able to turn the Ocean's equipment in Halifax on the 'Loop Track' at the Halifax Container Terminal that it currently uses.









There is a 'Wye Track' at Truro where the train could be turned but it would have to run backwards for 65 miles either before completing the run to Halifax or after departure the next day. The locomotives could run-around and lead the train.....but the cars would be backwards including the 'Park Car' directly behind the locomotives.

At one time.....the Ocean turned on the Wye at Windsor Junction (jct with the Dominion Atlantic Railway)...about 15 miles from Halifax but the connection has been removed. Here's the Ocean running out to the Junction and turning there back in 2006:



Or the configuration of the consist might change depending on what cars are to be used. The Renaissance Coaches face forward only....but Ren Sleepers and Diners are bi-dirctional with half the seats already fixed one-way or the other.

Seats in Budd Coaches can be rotated and I guess a Budd Diner could run backwards but you would have the 'Cabins for One' (old style Roomette) in the Budd Sleepers running backwards. There is a Turntable at CN's Fairview Engine Terminal where the Park Car could be turned but probably cost prohibitive to get one car out there and back to the VIA Station......and how receptive would CN be?

Or just replace the Park with a Skyline Dome. When the Atlantic Limited ran across Maine (the CP version not VIA's) the Skyline had flip-over seats as the car was not turned in Saint John

VIA could also just decide to terminate the Ocean in Moncton where a Wye is available.....and passengers take a connecting Intercity Train to or from Halifax. VIA has proposed starting an Intercity service in the Maritimes for several years now and it would run more frequent than the tri-weekly Ocean.

Perhaps this might be the best option. The Ocean is busiest west of Moncton especially in the sleepers....and this would give the coach passengers out of Halifax additional service.

I ride the Ocean often but don't see having to connect in Moncton to a sleeper a big problem and in fact I also ride coach occasionally to Amherst and Moncton.....and having additional frequencies is a plus.

Anyway....several options so stay tuned.....could be interesting come November!


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## jiml (Feb 7, 2020)

This was actually predicted during my recent trip. There were a number of CN retirees and other rail-knowledgeable folks on-board. There was some hint that the container terminal track would no longer be available (not as specific as the article). This brought up VIA's plan a few years ago to "Skeena" the route, with a daytime train from Montreal to Matapedia that would either continue the next day to Halifax or be met by a Matapedia-Halifax separate day train - possibly RDC's. No sleepers on either and possibly no dining. This was also tied into the return of the Chaleur under similar conditions. Our SCA was aware of the plan, but thought it had "gone away" or at least the crew hoped it had. One "expert" suggested that part of the service out of Montreal would be provided by LRC coaches made surplus by the Siemens sets when they arrived. (He also thought they would be assigned to at least half of the northern Quebec J-train.) This news could escalate any timetable that was under consideration.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 7, 2020)

Fair use quote from the first link...



> In their most recent newsletter, rail advocacy group Transport Action Canada alerted its members of VIA’s impending eviction from the Halifax rail loop, with some concern over the political power structure revealed therein: “A corporation with a lease on public property, and apparently aided and abetted by the Port of Halifax and CN, is bullying a federal Crown corporation into submission, and threatening the very existence of what little passenger rail service Atlantic Canada has left.”



I'd like to ride what's left of the Ocean before it's forced to undergo yet another downgrade. That being said I'm still hesitant to risk my precious vacation days on the obsequious whims of a Canadian border agent. Is there a practical method for insuring a foreign trip against being wasted on a random refusal of entry?


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 7, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> ......That being said I'm still hesitant to risk my precious vacation days on the obsequious whims of a Canadian border agent. Is there a practical method for insuring a foreign trip against being wasted on a random refusal of entry?



Approximately 300,000 thousand cross the US/Canada Border every day. For most its effortless. Just have your passport or other acceptable document ready.

Is there something in your past that might negate an expeditious crossing?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/the-canada-u-s-border-by-the-numbers-1.999207


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## Urban Sky (Feb 7, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> That being said I'm still hesitant to risk my precious vacation days on the obsequious whims of a Canadian border agent. Is there a practical method for insuring a foreign trip against being wasted on a random refusal of entry?


You are really the first person I see reporting struggles when leaving the US...


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## zephyr17 (Feb 7, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Fair use quote from the first link...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to ride what's left of the Ocean before it's forced to undergo yet another downgrade. That being said I'm still hesitant to risk my precious vacation days on the obsequious whims of a Canadian border agent. Is there a practical method for insuring a foreign trip against being wasted on a random refusal of entry?


I cross the Canadian border many times a year. In fact, most of my vacations in the last few years involve Canada.

CBSA does not "randomly" refuse entry. They refuse entry for cause. Any history of drunk driving is cause. Serious criminal convictions are cause. CBSA agents have direct access to the US NCIC information, so they have acess to US criminal records at their fingertips. Also if CBSA agents suspects you intend to work in Canada without the proper Visa is cause.

Most of my trips involve a prepaid component (VIA tickets for example). I have spent almost 6 weeks in Canada and spent significant money there over various trips since the end of October. I do not worry about my Canadian admissability one bit.

What is it in your past or your intent that is troubling you, DA?


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## PVD (Feb 7, 2020)

I don't really think that is a question for a public forum...Any private matters someone wishes to discuss should remain exactly that, private, unless the person wishes to make them public.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 8, 2020)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Is there something in your past that might negate an expeditious crossing?





zephyr17 said:


> What is it in your past or your intent that is troubling you, DA?


I thought everyone already knew I was a prolific criminal mastermind before I came to AU.



Urban Sky said:


> You are really the first person I see reporting struggles when leaving the US...


Maybe it's just semantics, but the US has no universal exit controls, so leaving is as easy as walking out.



zephyr17 said:


> CBSA does not "randomly" refuse entry. They refuse entry for cause. Any history of drunk driving is cause. Serious criminal convictions are cause. CBSA agents have direct access to the US NCIC information, so they have acess to US criminal records at their fingertips. Also if CBSA agents suspects you intend to work in Canada without the proper Visa is cause.


Foreign countries can and do refuse entry for any reason or no reason at all. There is no expectation or right for a private citizen to enter a foreign country, regardless of their situation or purpose for visiting. My concern has nothing to do with my legal history or general admissibility; it's about how to prove a negative the next time an overzealous border agent accuses me of seeking employment, healthcare, and/or marriage. At first I thought I would simply bring some additional documentation with me next time, but after some research it turns out that carrying such documentation is in itself considered suspicious by the CBSA.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 8, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I thought everyone already knew I was a prolific criminal mastermind before I came to AU.
> 
> 
> Maybe it's just semantics, but the US has no universal exit controls, so leaving is as easy as walking out.
> ...


Yep. Bringing excessive documentation would be suspicious, especially if you were intent on showing it if not asked for it. At any international border have the right ID, be polite, honest, and answer what is asked succinctly and you almost certainly will not have a problem.

My own research on Canadian border crossings consists of crossing into Canada more times than I can count using all modes, air, rail, bus, my own car. My research indicates no problems if you don't create one.

So you never plan on leaving the country DA? Even to such an exotic destination as Canada?

Thanks for a most amusing thread, though.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 8, 2020)

zephyr17 said:


> So you never plan on leaving the country DA? Even to such an exotic destination as Canada?
> .


If your question is serious, obviously you’ve never read DA’s posts. He leaves the country quite often.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 8, 2020)

Urban Sky said:


> You are really the first person I see reporting struggles when leaving the US...


 It's gotten more intense than it used to be. I remember in like 2005 or so (so past 9/11) just showing my state ID and the agents going and coming barely looked at it. In more recent times I've gotten questioned way more than I was expecting including my favorite question "why would you want to come to Canada to ride a train?" - I'm not sure if showing her my business card from a non-profit railroad museum in the states helped or hurt my cause but she let me in. 

I need to get up to ride the Ocean while I still can.


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## jiml (Feb 8, 2020)

I'm old enough to remember when crossing in either direction between the US and Canada was a mere formality, with only a driver's license or copy of birth certificate required. Since then the "one-ups-man-ship" between the two countries has escalated, but lately even that has peaks and valleys. Even before 9-11 Canadian border people were obsessed with Canadians returning with more than their allowance (which was ridiculously low) and took great delight in forcing people to dump surplus liquor while paying a huge fine. Sometimes border crossing could take 2 hours, with luggage searches and close scrutiny of car parts. Then 9-11 happened and someone said one or more of the terrorists came from Canada, so passports were required to enter the US. Canada of course reciprocated. Since then it's been "flavor/flavour of the month". The current CBSA obsession is guns. If you're American you're likely packing, and if you're Canadian and have been out of the country for an extended time you might have bought one. The American CBP is currently obsessed with weed, since it is legal in Canada. A Canadian can be quizzed at length about its use and even the admission of use as a teenager can get you banned from the US for 6 months to life. All that having been said, there are plenty of courteous and quick crossings possible in either direction. We drove to Florida last week; CBP were not only super-polite, but wished us a great trip. It took exactly 30 seconds.

All my most memorable (and that's to say worst) experiences crossing in either direction have been on Amtrak trains... full of the dumbest questions and very time-consuming.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 8, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> If your question is serious, obviously you’ve never read DA’s posts. He leaves the country quite often.


Well, so do I and I find nothing at all unusual about Canada's border procedures.

That just makes his unreasonable fear of CBSA look even less reasonable. And more laughable.

If he wants to ride VIA he should do so.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 8, 2020)

I remember my first trip to Canada. I was arriving with my girlfriend at the time on Train No. 510 into Vancouver. They asked some odd questions. 

1. How did you meet?
2. How long have you been dating?
3. Have you been intimate? 

Then I went with a train friend a year later off the same Cascade now renumbered No. 516

1. How did you meet? 
2. Why do you guys want to travel across Canada? 
3. Why are you entering the country here instead of on the east coast where your from? 

Then I went with a German and crossed at the Windsor tunnel. 
1. How long will you be in the country?
2. What’s your plan for your canadian trip. 

So it kinda depends on the agent.


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## Steve4031 (Feb 8, 2020)

My answer to 3 in the first set of questions would have been “Yes, with your wife.”


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 8, 2020)

I do hope nothing changes to the Ocean though because in all honesty it’s probably my favorite long distance train anywhere. It’s got great scenery, friendly crews, great equipment, and you meet amazing people on it. It actually feels more like a passenger train than the Canadian.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 9, 2020)

zephyr17 said:


> Well, so do I and I find nothing at all unusual about Canada's border procedures. That just makes his unreasonable fear of CBSA look even less reasonable. And more laughable. If he wants to ride VIA he should do so.


My concern is based on prior experience having found Canadian immigration staff to be uniquely obnoxious and disagreeable. None of the other countries I've visited ever made me feel unwelcome or gave me any reason to believe my next entry might be refused. I live more than a thousand miles from the nearest Canadian border crossing, so being refused entry would have a more substantial impact for me than someone living in a neighboring state.



zephyr17 said:


> My own research on Canadian border crossings consists of crossing into Canada more times than I can count using all modes, air, rail, bus, my own car. My research indicates no problems if you don't create one.


You previously claimed travelers are not denied entry unless there is a clearly defined evidential reason for doing so. That is an impressively naive assumption. Even the possession of a formal invitation and official work visa is no guarantee of admission. Unsurprisingly I put my own experiences and those of my friends, family, and coworkers above those of someone I've never met with a bone to pick.



Seaboard92 said:


> I do hope nothing changes to the Ocean though because in all honesty it’s probably my favorite long distance train anywhere. It’s got great scenery, friendly crews, great equipment, and you meet amazing people on it. It actually feels more like a passenger train than the Canadian.


Favorite long distance train anywhere? That sounds like a pretty strong recommendation. *thinking face emoji*


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## Bonser (Feb 9, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> My concern is based on prior experience having found Canadian immigration staff to be uniquely obnoxious and disagreeable. None of the other countries I've visited ever made me feel unwelcome or gave me any reason to believe my next entry might be refused. I live more than a thousand miles from the nearest Canadian border crossing, so being refused entry would have a more substantial impact for me than someone living in a neighboring state.
> 
> 
> You previously claimed travelers are not denied entry unless there is a clearly defined evidential reason for doing so. That is an impressively naive assumption. Even the possession of a formal invitation and official work visa is no guarantee of admission. Unsurprisingly I put my own experiences and those of my friends, family, and coworkers above those of someone I've never met with a bone to pick.
> ...



It's my favorite too. BTW, I've never had an issue at Canadian border, never been asked unreasonable questions. Delays? Sure. But I've been crossing regularly (at Rouses Point) for 10 years and have found Canadian customs agents quite respectful. Maybe I've just been lucky.


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