# Can a train depart early?



## PaulM (Jan 30, 2009)

Could the following be a "bug"?

train status

Every time someone states that a train can't leave early, I wonder about the case where the conductor, based on a computer printout, knows that everyone with a reservation is already on board. Not that this could apply to the case at hand, since the train hasn't even arrived yet.

Edit:

I should have been more specific. I'm referring to an Amtrak train and a station with both an arrival and departure time in the schedule.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Jan 30, 2009)

PaulM said:


> Could the following be a "bug"?
> train status
> 
> Every time someone states that a train can't leave early, I wonder about the case where the conductor, based on a computer printout, knows that everyone with a reservation is already on board. Not that this could apply to the case at hand, since the train hasn't even arrived yet.



Well as far as your example is concerned, that looks like a little fluke in the software on the website.

But to answer your question, yes and no.

Trains such as "Auto Train" and chartered trains can depart if all who are on the manifest are on board and accounted for.

In instances such as in the NEC and South FL (WPB -MIA), long distance trains traveling NB (SB in So FL) which are "discharge only" station stops, the train can leave early if it happens to be on time or ahead of schedule in that sector. There would be no reason to wait on time as they are not picking up passengers.

In the NEC (at least on the long distance trains), a Southbound train picking up passengers in a "recieve only" situation can depart like two or three minutes ahead of schedule if all passengers are checked in and accounted for in a couple unique situations. I saw this practiced in stations such as TRE, WIL, and BAL where there is little platform space or only a couple of tracks servicing the station with or without the use of the mainline. In stations like WAS, PHL, NWK, and NYP, that won't happen due to their size and terminal station status.

And lastly (to be taken with a grain of salt), any train "can" leave early especially if your watch is set later than the railroad's time! LOL...

OBS gone freight...


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## wayman (Jan 30, 2009)

Amtrak OBS Gone Freight said:


> And lastly (to be taken with a grain of salt), any train "can" leave early especially if your watch is set later than the railroad's time! LOL...


Also, while Amtrak adheres to its printed schedules pretty well in terms of not leaving early, other operations (... SEPTA, I'm looking at you <_< ) aren't always so particular about such things.


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## PaulM (Jan 30, 2009)

PaulM said:


> Could the following be a "bug"?
> train status


It turned out to be academic. The screen shot was taken about a half hour before the actual departure time. When all was said and done, it actually departed 27 minutes late, still not bad for the CZ.


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## sky12065 (Jan 30, 2009)

PaulM said:


> Could the following be a "bug"?
> train status
> 
> Every time someone states that a train can't leave early, I wonder about the case where the conductor, based on a computer printout, knows that everyone with a reservation is already on board. Not that this could apply to the case at hand, since the train hasn't even arrived yet.
> ...


Conductor Murphy's Law sez "_If you're rushing toward the train with only minutes to spare, the train will probably leave early_!" :lol:


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## GG-1 (Jan 30, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> Conductor Murphy's Law sez "_If you're rushing toward the train with only minutes to spare, the train will probably leave early_!" :lol:


Aloha

A long time ago, and far, far away the only time the New Haven train to NYC at Hartford, CT was one time was the Sunday I was late. I did manage to catch it, since I already had my ticket and no bagage, seconds before departure thanks, to the bagage handeler who got the cart wedged against the train.


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## sky12065 (Jan 30, 2009)

GG-1 said:


> sky12065 said:
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> > Conductor Murphy's Law sez "_If you're rushing toward the train with only minutes to spare, the train will probably leave early_!" :lol:
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Waddaya mean no baggage? This drawing of you rushing for the train in CT shows that you definitely did have baggage!


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## GG-1 (Jan 30, 2009)

sky12065 said:


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LOL Aloha :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I've seen the LSL leave BOS a minute or two early relative to the clock on my cell phone which seems to automatically synchronize. I have not verified that my cell provider is properly handling leap seconds, however.

I think Chicago Union Station has an explicit policy that the gates close 3-5 minutes before departure.


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## AlanB (Jan 30, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> I'm pretty sure I've seen the LSL leave BOS a minute or two early relative to the clock on my cell phone which seems to automatically synchronize. I have not verified that my cell provider is properly handling leap seconds, however.
> I think Chicago Union Station has an explicit policy that the gates close 3-5 minutes before departure.


Well Amtrak may also be using a slightly different source for its time keeping than your cell phone company, and then of course there can be slight variations in the conductor's time piece.

And in Chicago, they have to close the gates early if they want the train to depart on time. It can take 3 minutes or more to walk from the waiting room down to the train, especially if one doesn't walk fast like I do.


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## MrFSS (Jan 30, 2009)

AlanB said:


> It can take 3 minutes or more to walk from the waiting room down to the train, especially if one doesn't walk fast like I do.


I could hardly keep up with you in LA.


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## the_traveler (Jan 30, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> GG-1 said:
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How did you get that picture of *ME* in (the coming) March?

That will be a picture of me trying to connect from the CZ to the Cardinal at CUS - *ON A 2 HOUR CONNECTION!* (AGR will not book otherwise between the CZ and Crescent - even though the CZ->CL is a 4 hour connection! And you know the CZ is *ALWAYS* on time! :blink: )


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## sky12065 (Jan 30, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> How did you get that picture of *ME* in (the coming) March?
> 
> That will be a picture of me trying to connect from the CZ to the Cardinal at CUS - *ON A 2 HOUR CONNECTION!* (AGR will not book otherwise between the CZ and Crescent - even though the CZ->CL is a 4 hour connection! And you know the CZ is *ALWAYS* on time! :blink: )


What are you, Eric's twin brother? :huh:


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## the_traveler (Jan 30, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> What are you, Eric's twin brother? :huh:


Of course not!  I'm Eric's twin cousin, 23 times removed! (They keep removing me - last time it took the Marines, but I keep returning!) :lol:


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## jackal (Jan 31, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure I've seen the LSL leave BOS a minute or two early relative to the clock on my cell phone which seems to automatically synchronize. I have not verified that my cell provider is properly handling leap seconds, however.
> ...


My cell provider (AT&T) seems to keep my phone pretty close to the NIST's atomic clock in Boulder, CO. Right now, my phone is exactly 5 seconds off of NIST standard time.

I would hope Amtrak also synchronizes with NIST official time.

Also, are there any Amtrak lines where it is not permitted to buy a ticket on-board? On the lines I'm familiar with, you can buy a ticket on-board, subject to a penalty if you board at a staffed station (where you could have bought a ticket from the station staff or QT machine). On lines where you can buy tickets on-board, the train shouldn't leave early even if all of the scheduled and ticketed passengers are already on-board, because there is still the chance that people without reservations could board and pay the fare on-board.


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## the_traveler (Jan 31, 2009)

jackal said:


> are there any Amtrak lines where it is not permitted to buy a ticket on-board?


Yes. Any train on the NEC. You CAN NOT buy a ticket on board, and you must have a ticket before you board.


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## HP_Lovecraft (Jan 31, 2009)

I've seen my train leave early a few times.

The earliest was Christmas. We arrived at WEM a full 10 minutes early. The conductor looked at his watched and said something like "wow, its amazing how well we run without freight and mbta traffic". Looked around, and gave the engineer the go-ahead.

Gave me a bit of pause, since I typically show up every day 5 minutes before departure.


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## Tony (Jan 31, 2009)

jackal said:


> Also, are there any Amtrak lines where it is not permitted to buy a ticket on-board? On the lines I'm familiar with, you can buy a ticket on-board, subject to a penalty if you board at a staffed station (where you could have bought a ticket from the station staff or QT machine). On lines where you can buy tickets on-board, the train shouldn't leave early even if all of the scheduled and ticketed passengers are already on-board, because there is still the chance that people without reservations could board and pay the fare on-board.


I believe one can't board the Autotrain w/o a ticket.

Also, I know one can't board the Vermonter w/o at least a reservation number even from a station that isn't staffed nor has a QT machine.


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## AlanB (Jan 31, 2009)

Actually the AT is unique in that they collect the tickets in the station before you board. When you check in at the desk, they lift your ticket, give you a seat check (for coach), and your dinner reservation.


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## GregL (Jan 31, 2009)

About 3 years ago, I was in CUS, standing in line for the departing Illinois Zephyr, some how I got in line for the train that departed for Michigan. I was on the train when I realized my mistake, I told the conductor, and he must have held the IZ, because it departed as soon as I stepped on board. Close call! 

GregL


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## ScottC4746 (Jan 31, 2009)

PaulM said:


> Could the following be a "bug"?
> train status
> 
> Every time someone states that a train can't leave early, I wonder about the case where the conductor, based on a computer printout, knows that everyone with a reservation is already on board. Not that this could apply to the case at hand, since the train hasn't even arrived yet.
> ...


I suppose it is possible. Considering Sunset Limited 2 is scheduled to arrive 1 1/2 hours EARLY tomorrow, they must be pulling out of stations early.


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## the_traveler (Jan 31, 2009)

ScottC4746 said:


> I suppose it is possible. Considering Sunset Limited 2 is scheduled to arrive 1 1/2 hours EARLY tomorrow, they must be pulling out of stations early.


Are you sure that #2 is not 22 ½ hours *LATE*? :huh: :lol:


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## ScottC4746 (Jan 31, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> ScottC4746 said:
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> > I suppose it is possible. Considering Sunset Limited 2 is scheduled to arrive 1 1/2 hours EARLY tomorrow, they must be pulling out of stations early.
> ...


Here is what it says:

2 Sunset Limited Arrives New Orleans, LA

(NOL)

4:00 pm

01-FEB-09 (2:29 pm)

01-FEB-09

estimated Estimated Arrival Time: 1 hour and 31 minutes early.

Departs New Orleans, LA


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## the_traveler (Jan 31, 2009)

ScottC4746 said:


> the_traveler said:
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Just looking at 3 stations for #2 (and remember that these are *ALL* in the future!):

SAS - Estimated on time

HOS - Estimated 1 minute late

NOL 0 Estimated 1 hour 31 minutes early

:huh:


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## ScottC4746 (Jan 31, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> ScottC4746 said:
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But all it takes is one freight train to foul, (or fowl depending on the load), things up.


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## zoltan (Jan 31, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Just looking at 3 stations for #2 (and remember that these are *ALL* in the future!):
> SAS - Estimated on time
> 
> HOS - Estimated 1 minute late
> ...


Is this perhaps a more extreme version of what is routinely done in Britain - a few minutes - or in this case, more than that, in proportion with the length of the schedule - being added to the timing between the second to last station and the final station, to make the on time figures seem more favourable?


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## the_traveler (Jan 31, 2009)

True - but it won't even get to SAS for 2 ½ hours! :blink: So how do they know it will get to San Antonio on time, get to Houston late and then get to New Orleans *VERY* early? :huh: (Unless UP has freights just waiting to jump out at #2, and then get out of the way as #2 highballs down the track!  :lol: )


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## ScottC4746 (Jan 31, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> True - but it won't even get to SAS for 2 ½ hours! :blink: So how do they know it will get to San Antonio on time, get to Houston late and then get to New Orleans *VERY* early? :huh: (Unless UP has freights just waiting to jump out at #2, and then get out of the way as #2 highballs down the track! :lol: )


Well, the current #2 that left LAX yesterday shows

Dep LAX On Time

The rest of these are arrivals

POS +7

ONA +5

PSN +8

YUM +24

MRC +14

TUS On Time

BEN +106

LDB +6

DEM No Information

ELP On Time

ALP On Time

SND On Time

DRT + 10 (doing so good until betwen Sanderson and Del Rio)

SAS En Route Scheduled On Time, one more hour until we know for sure.


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## GG-1 (Jan 31, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> sky12065 said:
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> > What are you, Eric's twin brother? :huh:
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His hair is a little Darker than mine :lol:


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## ScottC4746 (Jan 31, 2009)

Apparnetly the train arrived because now we have:

POS +7 minutes

ONA +5 minutes

PSN +8 minutes

YUM +24 minutes

MRC +14 minutes

TUS On Time

BEN +16 minutes

LDB +6 minutes

DEM No Information

ELP On Time

ALP On Time

SND On Time

DRT + 10 (doing so good until betwen Sanderson and Del Rio) Minutes

SAS - 38 minutes

HOS Est. On time


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## Joel N. Weber II (Feb 1, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Actually the AT is unique in that they collect the tickets in the station before you board. When you check in at the desk, they lift your ticket, give you a seat check (for coach), and your dinner reservation.


Why do you need a seat check? The Auto Train is also unique in that all the passengers have the same destination. Is this just a matter of assigning seats?


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## Joel N. Weber II (Feb 1, 2009)

zoltan said:


> Is this perhaps a more extreme version of what is routinely done in Britain - a few minutes - or in this case, more than that, in proportion with the length of the schedule - being added to the timing between the second to last station and the final station, to make the on time figures seem more favourable?


I'm sure I've seen #448 arrive at BOS 7-8 minutes early.

It's perfectly reasonable to pad the schedule to account for typical amounts of traffic, so that someone reading the schedule will get a reasonably realistic expectation of when they will arrive.


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## AlanB (Feb 1, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> AlanB said:
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> > Actually the AT is unique in that they collect the tickets in the station before you board. When you check in at the desk, they lift your ticket, give you a seat check (for coach), and your dinner reservation.
> ...


The passenger doesn't really need a seat check, it's more for the car attendants. And it's even possible with the new ticket holders that they've stopped handing out seat checks, I honestly didn't pay attention when I rode it last summer. But the attendant used to use the check to ensure that you were boarding the correct car, it provided a handy reference that he/she could pull out of your ticket holder to ensure you were assigned to that car and to direct you to your seats.

The new special AT ticket envelopes now have a space for the agents in the terminal to write your seat and car numbers on the front of the envelope/booklet. If IIRC it used to be written on the inside.


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## sky12065 (Feb 1, 2009)

AlanB said:


> The new special AT ticket envelopes now have a space for the agents in the terminal to write your seat and car numbers on the front of the envelope/booklet. If IIRC it used to be written on the inside.


Alan,

FYI I have the ticket envelope/booklet/pocket that I received my tickets in, and in looking at it I find that there is only space for Passenger and Reservation Number information on the front. (The agent only wrote in the reservation no.) There is no space for the seat and car numbers on either the outside or inside of the jacket. Just a lot of advertising on the outside and an Amtrak users guide on the inside. The print date of the document is 4/08. However, I don't know if what you're referring to is newer or if there are different envelopes for coach seats or for different locations .


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## the_traveler (Feb 1, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> AlanB said:
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> ...


I've never taken the AT, so I can't say for sure, but I think that may be the answer. I take it you had a room, so you know which car and room you have. In coach, you don't know which car and seat you have ahead of time. But I could be wrong!


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## sky12065 (Feb 1, 2009)

the_traveler said:


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Me begin'n to thinkith that I should have asked what AT stood for instead of presuming it was an abbreviation for AmTrak! I can guess other things like Articulated Transport or *the train that Duke Ellington played about*! 

ON EDIT: After originally posting this message I found a related video that I think that some of you might really get a kick out of... *CLICK HERE*!


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## AlanB (Feb 1, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> sky12065 said:
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Joe,

Unless you've been on the AT (Auto Train), then you haven't seen the special ticket envelopes/booklets that I'm talking about, they aren't used on any other Amtrak train. They have a place to write in the number assigned to one's car, to help in the claiming process at the other end, as well as a space for your accomodations. Additionally the booklet has a route guide, directions to the terminals, and other interesting/valuable information.


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## PaulM (Feb 1, 2009)

Just for the the record, the east bound CZ whose train status that got all these tangents going arrived in CHI 37 minutes early. I still maintain that the CZ not running 5 - 10 - 15 hours late every day is Obama's first miracle.


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## sky12065 (Feb 2, 2009)

AlanB said:


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I must have been on Auto Brain not to think of Auto Train! :blush: I gotta get more sleep one of these nights! Oh well! Thanks for kicking my brain back into manual overdrive!


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## jackal (Feb 2, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Actually the AT is unique in that they collect the tickets in the station before you board. When you check in at the desk, they lift your ticket, give you a seat check (for coach), and your dinner reservation.


Actually, the conductor and assistant conductor did this in the lobby of DEN. All the passengers lined up in the lobby in front of a kind of podium/desk, and as we filed by, they lifted the tickets, gave us seat checks, and then told us to go through the door marked "TO TRAINS."

Don't recall if they actually assigned seats or if it was first-come, first-serve on-board. (I think they did assign them there.)

But it's still not a regular practice anywhere else I've seen on the Amtrak system.


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## jis (Feb 2, 2009)

jackal said:


> AlanB said:
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> > Actually the AT is unique in that they collect the tickets in the station before you board. When you check in at the desk, they lift your ticket, give you a seat check (for coach), and your dinner reservation.
> ...


Last November in Seattle, for the Vancouver Cascades service they collected tickets in the station before boarding and gave each passengers a seat check with a car number and an assigned seat number. They actually use a seat chart with seat numbers on stickers which theypick up from the chart and stick on the check. I asked for a window seat and the conductor picked up a window seat sticker from the seat chart and stuck it on my seat check before handing it to me.


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## AlanB (Feb 2, 2009)

jis said:


> jackal said:
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There are stations throughout the system where this happens, another that I know of is St. Louis. Typically they are larger stations where the crew is either changing or originating.

There are even some conductors that will come into the Metropolitan lounge in Chicago and collect the sleeping car passenger's tickets prior to actually boarding the train.


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## the_traveler (Feb 3, 2009)

I just got off #172 a few hours ago. While listening to the scanner at NLC, the Assistant Conductor said he was clear. The Conductor got on and said that we had to wait 2 minutes. (We arrived into NLC early.) So we sat for 2 minutes.

We did not leave early!


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