# Are truck drivers under qualified?



## tgstubbs1 (Dec 16, 2021)

Trucks dominate US freight. Using low paid, under trained, and under qualified drivers can lead to disaster.









Trucker’s 110-year sentence in fatal I-70 crash spotlights Colorado sentencing laws, prosecutors’ charging decisions


Judge who sentenced Rogel Aguilera-Mederos lamented that he couldn’t opt for a lesser prison term




www.denverpost.com


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 16, 2021)

From stories I've heard, it is a tough job, made even harder by the Electronic Logging requirements.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 16, 2021)

From the incidents I've seen many do seem under-qualified but are hired anyway and remain employed even after close calls. Eventually their time runs out but by then it's too late. Working around commercial truckers is what convinced me that self-driving vehicles may be a genuine improvement.


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## me_little_me (Dec 16, 2021)

So many of them these days are poor drivers - as bad as those driving cars. So things I have seeing in the last few years much more often:


Failure to signal lane changes
Driving in no-truck lanes
Not keeping in the right hand lane so cars pass on the right
Cutting off other drivers
Unable to pass because of hills or not enough power but trying to do so for miles on end causing backups behind them
Definitely much worse than in the old days when truckers were the best of the drivers.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 16, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> So many of them these days are poor drivers - as bad as those driving cars. So things I have seeing in the last few years much more often:
> 
> 
> Failure to signal lane changes
> ...


In the old days they were probably paid better.


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## John819 (Dec 16, 2021)

Yes, their driving has gotten a lot worse over the past few years. But so have their working conditions.


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## John Santos (Dec 16, 2021)

Remember half of all drivers are worse than average.



But... The same is true of any profession. Most occupational skills are on a bell curve, most people are close to the middle. Most of the drivers with worse than average skill are just a little worse, and most better-than-average drivers are only slightly better than average. Extremely good and extremely bad drivers are relatively rare.

The article linked in the 1st post says nothing about the accident except it occurred on I-70, 4 people were killed and the guy was driving a truck. Was he speeding or driving recklessly, or did his brakes fail? What justified the assault and attempted assault charges? Doesn't "assault" ALWAYS imply "attempted assault" and therefore charging both should be redundant? There's lots we don't know here.


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## willem (Dec 16, 2021)

John Santos said:


> Remember half of all drivers are worse than average.


That might be true, but way more than half are better than average. Just ask a bunch of drivers if they are better, average, or worse.

How could this be? A driver who thinks it's important to use a turn signal will use a turn signal, and figure he or she is better than those who don't. A driver who thinks it's important to obey the speed limit will obey the speed limit, and figure he or she is better than those who don't. (Substitute obey the speed limit with not exceed by more than x mph and repeat.) A driver who thinks it's important to let others pass will let others pass... You can see where this is going. With each person using self-chosen criteria, each person is above average.


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## John Santos (Dec 16, 2021)

willem said:


> That might be true, but way more than half are better than average. Just ask a bunch of drivers if they are better, average, or worse.
> 
> How could this be? A driver who thinks it's important to use a turn signal will use a turn signal, and figure he or she is better than those who don't. A driver who thinks it's important to obey the speed limit will obey the speed limit, and figure he or she is better than those who don't. (Substitute obey the speed limit with not exceed by more than x mph and repeat.) A driver who thinks it's important to let others pass will let others pass... You can see where this is going. With person using self-chosen criteria, each person is above average.


Like the children of Lake Woebegone, ALL drivers think they are above average. This doesn't make it so.


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## Willbridge (Dec 17, 2021)

John Santos said:


> Remember half of all drivers are worse than average.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've followed this in the local media. This driver made multiple bad decisions. The runaway on the non-standard Interstate segment might have not resulted in such a big disaster had he not smashed into another accident scene.

This link summarizes and it in turn has a link to an explanation of the unique features of this segment of the Interstate. Unique features that are well-signed and that trained and/or experienced drivers cope with every day. (Also, RTD highway coaches on Rtes EV/ES/EX.)

Trucker In Fatal I-70 Pileup Pleads Not Guilty | Colorado Public Radio (cpr.org)


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## Siegmund (Dec 17, 2021)

tgstubbs1 said:


> In the old days they were probably paid better.



The pay is still quite good --- good enough that at the community college where I worked pre-covid, it was impossible to get any over-the-road trucker to give up trips to teach our CDL class. There was a huge demand, a year-long waiting list to take the class, but a shortage of instructors. We owned one bus and one semi for student drivers and we could have had them on the on the road around the clock if we had the 6-8 teachers to do it. We were lucky if we got two rather than one in any given semester.)

Increasing the instructor wage to match was, of course, not an option. Heh.


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## John Santos (Dec 17, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I've followed this in the local media. This driver made multiple bad decisions. The runaway on the non-standard Interstate segment might have not resulted in such a big disaster had he not smashed into another accident scene.
> 
> This link summarizes and it in turn has a link to an explanation of the unique features of this segment of the Interstate. Unique features that are well-signed and that trained and/or experienced drivers cope with every day. (Also, RTD highway coaches on Rtes EV/ES/EX.)
> 
> Trucker In Fatal I-70 Pileup Pleads Not Guilty | Colorado Public Radio (cpr.org)


Yikes! Thanks for the links and background.


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## AFriendly (Dec 17, 2021)

John819 said:


> Yes, their driving has gotten a lot worse over the past few years. But so have their working conditions.



Just like the railroads and the airlines, the trucking industry was deregulated starting in 1980, and that was the beginning of the ugliness. _Unlike_ the railroads and the airlines, however, the safety margins in trucking were already quite thin even before deregulation, and the working conditions were already tough. At this moment, what so many companies call the "driver shortage" in the industry is a direct consequence of working conditions having deteriorated to the point that a lot of people won't touch it. As frequently happens in jobs that are so unpleasant, most of the people left in the pipeline are not exactly the cream of the crop.


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## west point (Dec 17, 2021)

Brakes -Just like trains. There is that KE= 1/2 times the mass times the speed squared. When driving down- hill with runaways always stay in the lane next to the runaways. If you notice any fade immediately stop on the shoulder and wait for brakes to cool. Did that once when the load weight was much more than listed. Uphill traffic was too slow to realize that load much more than listed.


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## basketmaker (Dec 18, 2021)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Trucks dominate US freight. Using low paid, under trained, and under qualified drivers can lead to disaster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Colorado state laws. He took four lives and got what he deserved.


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## basketmaker (Dec 18, 2021)

John Santos said:


> Remember half of all drivers are worse than average.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember the day this happened. What an horrific mess. He was eastbound with a flatbed load of mostly 2x4 lumber from Vail Pass into west Denver. Claims his brakes failed (not uncommon in that area) but he failed to use (if remember correctly) four emergency run-off ramps. I have never driving that area without seeing a couple of tractor-trailers buried in the gravel on a couple the ramps. Drivers had video of his swerving lane to lane on the way down. When the crash occurred the lumber was scattered for a couple hundred feet on and around multiple vehicles both vehicles he crashed into and others in traffic. A huge fireball erupted and with the wood engulfed I think is was like 13-15 vehicles. Also damaged an overpass above the accident scene. Luckily most of the other vehicle occupants were able to escape. But four lost their lives. Under Colorado law since there were deaths due to his willful negligence maximum sentences are mandatory for the specific charge and run consecutive not concurrent. I think he was changed with 21 counts of various infractions and convicted on 20 of them. After passing 4 maybe 3 run-off ramps he pretty much got what he deserved.


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## Asher (Dec 18, 2021)

With far more trucks on the road now than 20 gears ago I see more drivers that don't hold their line in a lane and are riding the divider. But overall I'm comfortable around big rigs. Some highways are so hammered in the truck lane that I think its impossible to drive in for any length of time. It is frustrating to get stuck behind a truck trying to pass another truck. It always seems easy to pass a truck when you are just cruising behind a truck in his draft, you pull out around and lose the draft and you are both going the same speed, most the time with a engine governor that is holding both at the same speed. Frustration for all stuck behind.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 18, 2021)

The long sentence was mandated by law. Some people want clemency.










3M sign petition to lessen sentence of driver in fatal Colorado truck crash


More than 3 million people have signed a petition as of Friday supporting clemency for a man sentenced to 110 years in prison for a truck crash that killed four people in Colorado.




www.upi.com


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## west point (Dec 18, 2021)

There is one big problem not only for trucks but autos and airplanes. It is tires. On airplanes there is a rule that the failure of one component will be covered by another by at least 50% remaining. Well, that does not apply to airplane tires. After landing at CLT one day one right main tire blew. By time reached gate the other tire overheated, and fuse plug released air. Say goodby to 2 - 48 ply tires.

Same problem with truck tires. on a fully loaded 80k weight one tire failing on doubles the adjacent tire will often fail. Take an 80k truck down a 3 % grade or more and higher speeds than posted for your weight. Use brakes to slow brakes but they heat up also tires. Tires blow then brakes fail. Results you can guess. One reason steer tires always new tires only.

Then you have autos and especially RVs. Tire sellers will often sell tires that are not load rated to the posted max load. Before you buy replacement tires for your vehicle read the max rated load on the tire and then check what the max allowable load on each wheel. I always add 25% that my farther advised since he was in trucking all his adult life. Have to wonder how many truck drivers are taught this at Joe Blows trucking school?

Had an in-law that had a SUV rated for 6000 pounds. SUV was going to be slightly overloaded. He got new tires for a trip and when I checked tires that evening rated for less but not by much. Advice to take tires back ignored. Made it about 400 miles to Florida and all 4 tires failed. Replacements were not cheap.


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## Deni (Dec 19, 2021)

I think underqualified describes almost every driver on the road. Nobody drives the way you are taught in drivers' ed, whether it be gunning it to "beat the red" (and usually you end up having to stop at the next red anyway), tailgating, or driving at excessive speed, among and so many other things. Cars kill more people under the age of 54 every year than anything else and it has gotten worse the last two years. And our culture doesn't seem to care at all. Local municipalities treat traffic violations as revenue generators instead of enforcement to change behavior and you don't even get a speeding ticket unless you are going 10+miles over.

Yeah, there are a lot of unqualified truckers on the road but they are not the only ones. How many people died the same day this truck driver killed those people because someone decided to speed, run a red light, or tailgate? We don't usually hold people accountable for what the media still largely refer to as "accidents" despite the fact they are caused by deliberate violations of traffic law and safety.


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## me_little_me (Dec 19, 2021)

Deni said:


> I think underqualified describes almost every driver on the road. Nobody drives the way you are taught in drivers' ed, whether it be gunning it to "beat the red" (and usually you end up having to stop at the next red anyway), tailgating, or driving at excessive speed, among and so many other things. Cars kill more people under the age of 54 every year than anything else and it has gotten worse the last two years. And our culture doesn't seem to care at all. Local municipalities treat traffic violations as revenue generators instead of enforcement to change behavior and you don't even get a speeding ticket unless you are going 10+miles over.
> 
> Yeah, there are a lot of unqualified truckers on the road but they are not the only ones. How many people died the same day this truck driver killed those people because someone decided to speed, run a red light, or tailgate? We don't usually hold people accountable for what the media still largely refer to as "accidents" despite the fact they are caused by deliberate violations of traffic law and safety.


This thread is about truck drivers who are paid to drive, not about our weak licensing system for ordinary drivers and their inability to drive. That has nothing to do with truckers who are supposed to be held to a higher standard because their big rigs can be far more dangerous (and can carry large hazardous cargoes) . Moreover, they are taking over more and more of what railroads used to do (with even MUCH higher requirements) with, IMHO, less trained and worse driving habits than they used to have years ago when most of them set the standard for good driving and were referred to as Knights of the Road instead of Nightmares of the Road.


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## Deni (Dec 20, 2021)

I guess I'm curious about this image of truck drivers in the past being the great "knights of the road" excellent drivers. I think it's myth myself. My mother was in shipping for a meat packing company for years when I was a kid and she knew all the truck drivers who ran shipments to/from her plant. She was a single parent and we lived in the Southeast but my father and rest of our family lived in the Midwest so we needed to go north for summers and winter breaks. To save money my mother asked drivers to let her kids hitch rides every summer and winter for years. My brother, sister and I would all get north that way, usually separately. So from about 1982 to 1987 I rode with truckers about four times a year, sometimes more. Let me tell you, they were crazy dangerous guys back then. Excessive speeding, tailgating, taking the left "no trucks" lane, you name it. I'd say the majority of them drove like idiots. And saw themselves as the "knights of the road" but they were anything but. I also don't think they've ever been held to a higher standard.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 20, 2021)

I think the "Knights of the road" disappeared in the '60s.

They've been discussing this on the news recently. Some truckers are planning on boycotting Colorado.

Maybe the Governor will reduce his sentence. The judge claims he gave the required minimum sentences but the number of violations mandated the 110 year total.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 20, 2021)

Deni said:


> I guess I'm curious about this image of truck drivers in the past being the great "knights of the road" excellent drivers. I think it's myth myself. My mother was in shipping for a meat packing company for years when I was a kid and she knew all the truck drivers who ran shipments to/from her plant. She was a single parent and we lived in the Southeast but my father and rest of our family lived in the Midwest so we needed to go north for summers and winter breaks. To save money my mother asked drivers to let her kids hitch rides every summer and winter for years. My brother, sister and I would all get north that way, usually separately. So from about 1982 to 1987 I rode with truckers about four times a year, sometimes more. Let me tell you, they were crazy dangerous guys back then. Excessive speeding, tailgating, taking the left "no trucks" lane, you name it. I'd say the majority of them drove like idiots. And saw themselves as the "knights of the road" but they were anything but. I also don't think they've ever been held to a higher standard.


Back in the early 1960's we were so annoyed by an overly aggressive trucker on the New Jersey Turnpike that my father reported him to the toll-taker when we exited. (No cellphones back then!) More recently, I think the issue of whether a trucker might be a bad driver or not depends on who they work for. The big companies have their trucked all hooked up to the electronic leash of GPS and such, take interest in how their drivers drive, and now have the technology to monitor them. Some of the independent owner-operators don't have this and may take on too much work that gives them stressful deadlines. I was pretty impressed that in Texas, of all places, most of the big rigs actually drove below the speed limit. Just shows you we have myths about people and places that aren't true.

The most common bad driving moves I've seen from trucker mostly involves trying to pass in heavy traffic when they don't have enough power to quickly make their move.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 20, 2021)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Some truckers are planning on boycotting Colorado.


They might also want to check out what other states have these kinds of inflexible sentencing laws. They were quite popular in the 1990s, as I recall.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 20, 2021)

I feel sorry for the guy but witnesses said he didn't seem to be trying to slow down, instead passing several emergency ramps 

Unfortunately the sentence won't do much to help the victims or their families. 

I don't know if he had a GPS, which could have warned him of the upcoming "deadman's curve" which could be programmed as a POI.

Regulations should be passed to ensure that the best equipment available should be used to prevent this kind of accident.


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## Siegmund (Dec 21, 2021)

Deni said:


> I'd say the majority of them drove like idiots. And saw themselves as the "knights of the road" but they were anything but.



I somehow suspect that if you could turn back the clock a thousand years and see real live knights in action, you'd see a handful of chivalrous gentlemen, and a whole bunch of guys raping and pillaging for their own amusement.


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## MilwaukeeRoadLover (Dec 21, 2021)

Deni said:


> I guess I'm curious about this image of truck drivers in the past being the great "knights of the road" excellent drivers. I think it's myth myself. My mother was in shipping for a meat packing company for years when I was a kid and she knew all the truck drivers who ran shipments to/from her plant. She was a single parent and we lived in the Southeast but my father and rest of our family lived in the Midwest so we needed to go north for summers and winter breaks. To save money my mother asked drivers to let her kids hitch rides every summer and winter for years. My brother, sister and I would all get north that way, usually separately. So from about 1982 to 1987 I rode with truckers about four times a year, sometimes more. Let me tell you, they were crazy dangerous guys back then. Excessive speeding, tailgating, taking the left "no trucks" lane, you name it. I'd say the majority of them drove like idiots. And saw themselves as the "knights of the road" but they were anything but. I also don't think they've ever been held to a higher standard.


In practice, I don't see this. I see trucks hogging multiple lanes on the highway, crowding out cars, tailgating. I year for the time of the trains when freight had their own road.


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## west point (Dec 22, 2021)

2It may be some of the protesting truckers are worried that if they get caught they will suffer a similar fate in light of their offense? Frankly that sentenced driver gave 90% of good drivers a bad name.


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## cirdan (Dec 22, 2021)

Can't speak for truck drivers in general but my Dad's girlfriend has several truck drivers in her family and although I don't know how they drive, they are all extremely generous, warm-hearted and helpful people who work hard and long hours, often for little recognition, and carry a lot of pressure and blame and are basically on their own when something goes wrong, for example if they deliver late or if something is wrong with the paperwork or something gets damaged. I wouldn't want to change jobs with them.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 22, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Can't speak for truck drivers in general but my Dad's girlfriend has several truck drivers in her family and although I don't know how they drive, they are all extremely generous, warm-hearted and helpful people who work hard and long hours, often for little recognition, and carry a lot of pressure and blame and are basically on their own when something goes wrong, for example if they deliver late or if something is wrong with the paperwork or something gets damaged. I wouldn't want to change jobs with them.


"I do not know how my father's girlfriend's brother actually drives but..."

Your post sounds like the start of a joke about completely misunderstanding the problem. I do not think all truckers are bad people or that they're worse at driving than regular drivers. The problem is that they're no better than other drivers despite putting more lives at risk with their enormous heavy rigs.


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## Willbridge (Dec 23, 2021)

In the meantime, the Texas owner of the trucking company has re-incorporated under a different name.

Owner of trucking company in I-70 crash tied to newer trucking business (msn.com)


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 23, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> In the meantime, the Texas owner of the trucking company has re-incorporated under a different name.
> 
> Owner of trucking company in I-70 crash tied to newer trucking business (msn.com)



Which is strange as this issue was address by the FMCSA a few years ago. Company Officials are prevented for doing this type of reset. However since it was done the day after the accident it was probably missed by the system in place. Even more strange is how the new company still has the same problem as the old one did. You think a small outfit such as this (4 drivers) would stop operations for a few hours, and have all equipment shopped for brake inspection.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 27, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Can't speak for truck drivers in general but my Dad's girlfriend has several truck drivers in her family and although I don't know how they drive, they are all extremely generous, warm-hearted and helpful people who work hard and long hours, often for little recognition, and carry a lot of pressure and blame and are basically on their own when something goes wrong, for example if they deliver late or if something is wrong with the paperwork or something gets damaged. I wouldn't want to change jobs with them.


It sounds like the Governor might look into reducing his sentence. 

There is some pressure on drivers that put the public at risk.

"According to the American Trucking Associations, the lobbying organization for large trucking employers, the US has a shortage of 80,000 truck drivers that is disrupting the nation’s supply chains, and the shortages are projected to worsen over the next few years.

This claim has been repeated consistently over the years and has recently been cited by industry groups in favor of a bill in Congress to lower the commercial driver’s license age requirement from the age of 21 to 18. But truck drivers are quick to highlight the low pay, poor treatment, and poor working conditions they endure throughout the industry as prevailing issues for employers who claim to have trouble finding and retaining enough drivers.

“The industry has recycled this narrative about every three months for over 20 years. There is no truck driver shortage,” said Desiree Wood, the president of Real Women in Trucking. “It is indeed a pay shortage and work conditions issue.”









‘This used to be a great job’: US truckers driven down by long hours and low pay


Industry bosses complain they can’t hire drivers but workers say they’re underpaid and treated ‘like trash’




www.theguardian.com


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 27, 2021)

There's labor shortages across the board, even in non-public-facing professions, why would trucking be any different? 

Interestingly, I've been watching a lot of "snow fail" videos which led to dashcam footage and there seems to be as much bad truck driving abroad as there is here - I find that driving in general has gotten much, much worse since covid entered the picture (personal theory is new drivers avoiding transit, legalized marijuana and lack of enforcement - I see far more accidents per day than say two years ago).


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## MARC Rider (Dec 27, 2021)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> - I find that driving in general has gotten much, much worse since covid entered the picture (personal theory is new drivers avoiding transit, legalized marijuana and lack of enforcement - I see far more accidents per day than say two years ago).



Well, I don't know about the states where cannabis has been legalized, but the quality of driving here in Maryland has certainly gone down, and we haven't legalized recreational cannabis. Most of the things I have to deal with are aggressive driving, people trying to pass with insufficient space, people running red lights (although I've noticed that as a local problem since I moved to Maryland in 1979), people pulling out of drives and cross streets too quickly, speeding (but more like idiots doing 50 -60 in a 35 mph zone, not people doing 80-90 on the freeway), changing lanes without signaling, and such like that. These are all mostly car drivers, by the way. 

The real problems with truckers are the delivery and specialized haulers that don't seem to realize that a fully loaded dump truck (for example) can't be driven like a sports car. The only real problem I have with the long-haul drivers in the 18-wheelers is that they sometimes hog the left lane trying to pass on an uphill, and there are a few drivers of empty flatbed tractor-trailers that, like the dump truck drivers, don't realize they're not in the Monaco Grand Prix.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 29, 2021)

I-70 Crash Survivor Wants Truck Driver Rogel Aguilera-Mederos To Serve 50 Years


One of the survivors of the deadly crash on Interstate 70 at Colorado Mills Parkway in 2019 is talking about the push to reduce the sentence of the semi truck driver blamed for the fiery crash.




denver.cbslocal.com






"However, crash survivor Valerie Robertson-Young has advocated for at least 50 years — saying Aguilera-Mederos approached her after the wreck, asking to use her phone. She claims he said he needed to get away."


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## west point (Dec 29, 2021)

Had to buy something at or local Loves. Talking to several drivers. One thought sentence was correct. Others worried if they did something dumb causing death, they would get the similar sentence.


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## Willbridge (Dec 29, 2021)

west point said:


> Had to buy something at or local Loves. Talking to several drivers. One thought sentence was correct. Others worried if they did something dumb causing death, they would get the similar sentence.


That's a good summary of what is discussed in Colorado. The main issues that are usually not well understood from condensed national reporting are: mandatory minimum sentences that tie judges' hands intentionally, the multiple fatalities, and the multiple chances that Aguilera-Mederos had to prevent the accident.

I served on a Denver jury civil case involving an accident that was preventable with common sense. There wasn't a person on the jury who had not driven the stretch of road involved and the only real debate was how much damages to award (which is why it went to trial). I would not be surprised if most of the jury in the trucker's case had driven that stretch of highway previously and wondered where his head was given the decisions he failed to make. On the other side of the coin, I'm sure they and the judge would have preferred a less extreme sentence.


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## John from RI (Dec 29, 2021)

Moving freight with railroads enabled us to win the Civil War and 2 World Wars. Then General Eisenhower led the invasion of Europe in 1944 and he thought it would be ever so nice if only the US had its own Autobahn, just like Germany. When he became President he built the US Defense and Interstate Highway System. Today America would be unthinkable without these highways. But creating them trashed the world's best railroad system. While railroads had their own problems they also had massive government problems dating back to the early 20th century. Finally they could no longer compete with taxpayer built highways which were, in part, built with the taxes the railroad companies had to pay. They almost went completely bankrupt. Finally, just before disaster truck, we managed to save a skeleton system, a fraction of what we had. But we are worse off for all that we have lost.

As long we continue our dependence on trucks to move so much over the road long distance freight we are going to have highway related accidents. We can say "ain't it awful." We can incarcerate guys who struggle to earn an honest living driving a truck. And the accidents will continue. Trains have accidents too. But they also have a much much better safety record.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 30, 2021)

Agreed, John. But unfortunately the freight railroads seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with policies such as PSR, at a time when the truck driver shortage should give them a chance to increase market share.


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## Deni (Dec 30, 2021)

Colorado Trucker’s Prison Sentence Is Reduced by 100 Years


Gov. Jared Polis said the initial prison sentence given to the driver, Rogel L. Aguilera-Mederos, was “unjust” and “disproportionate” compared with sentences for violent crimes.




www.nytimes.com


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