# Amtrak serving every state capital



## railgeekteen (Sep 18, 2020)

Let's say that Amtrak received a mandate to serve every state capital on the lower 48, what routes would you propose to accomplish this goal?


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## PVD (Sep 18, 2020)

It might be a fun exercise, but some would be fantasy, like Dover, DE and Annapolis, MD or some of the midwest and plains... Problem is, some State Capitals have great historic significance, but may not hold the economic power or population that makes it worthwhile. Track access could be a real issue. But as I said, could bed fun to kick it around.


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## railgeekteen (Sep 18, 2020)

PVD said:


> It might be a fun exercise, but some would be fantasy, like Dover, DE and Annapolis, MD or some of the midwest and plains... Problem is, some State Capitals have great historic significance, but may not hold the economic power or population that makes it worthwhile. Track access could be a real issue. But as I said, could bed fun to kick it around.


Dover DE has tracks through it. Most capitals do, except Annapolis.


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## PVD (Sep 18, 2020)

Tracks and track access are not the same (sadly) Also, the cost of and the willingness of the controlling RR can make it impractical. But like I said, it could be a fun exercise.


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## ehbowen (Sep 18, 2020)

How about that we amend that to serving the largest population center in every state, or the largest two population centers if both are over 1M in the Metropolitan Statistical Area?


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## WWW (Sep 19, 2020)

The Empire Builder could go through Madison WI - BUT presently it is a motor coach connection !

What would be the sense of having a railroad stop presence in a state capitol that has only seen better days with a covered wagon ?

Build it and they will come only to abandon it in favor of that SUV form of transportation.
The complexity of restoring rail service on previous routes or eminent domain to establish such service.
What time of the day or night would this service actually function for the traveling public consumer ?
Put politics on the back burner - good luck with this !


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## railiner (Sep 19, 2020)

railgeekteen said:


> Let's say that Amtrak received a mandate to serve every state capital on the lower 48, what routes would you propose to accomplish this goal?


You know I would have to say, the Amtrak National Limited....
Trenton, Harrisburg, Columbus, Indianapolis, and Jefferson City...five in one shot....


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## railiner (Sep 19, 2020)

Former SFZ...
Lincoln, Denver, Cheyenne, Salt Lake City, and Sacramento
Former Pioneer...
Lincoln, Denver, Cheyenne, Salt Lake City, Boise, and (E)Olympia
Silver Star...
Trenton, (does Washington, DC count as a capital?), Richmond, Raleigh, and Columbia


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## Qapla (Sep 19, 2020)

Simply restoring the Sunset Limited from NOL to JAX would restore service to Tallahassee


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## west point (Sep 20, 2020)

We do not know what "Sally" has done to the track ? Possible track will not be restored to passenger ability. We might only expect it to meet class 2 25 MPH specifications.


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## jiml (Sep 20, 2020)

ehbowen said:


> How about that we amend that to serving the largest population center in every state, or the largest two population centers if both are over 1M in the Metropolitan Statistical Area?


This would seem to make a lot more sense, since some capitals are so tiny or out-of-the-way. (See South Dakota discussion.) It's no different in Canada where VIA serves only half of the provincial capitals.


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## TWA904 (Sep 20, 2020)

Montgomery, AL. You could split the Crescent in Atlanta and have a southern Crescent that goes Auburn, AL, Montgomery, AL continuing to Jackson, MS and Dallas.


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## Qapla (Sep 20, 2020)

west point said:


> We do not know what "Sally" has done to the track ?



True. Katrina knocked out a bridge. They used that as an excuse for years after the bridge was rebuilt. They even successfully tested it for passenger after that and still did not restore the train.

So, even if Sally caused no damage to the tracks it would make a good excuse to keep passenger off those tracks.


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## jimdex (Sep 20, 2020)

ehbowen said:


> How about that we amend that to serving the largest population center in every state, or the largest two population centers if both are over 1M in the Metropolitan Statistical Area?


I don't think either of these criteria are particularly relevant if you're looking for the system that would serve the most Americans. What I propose instead is a route system that would include stops in each of the top US metropolitan statistical areas (regardless of which states those MSA's are in), with a further requirement that the top 20 or so MSA's must be served between the hours of 7 am and 11:30 pm, and linked together on reasonably direct routes that require no overnight stays between trains.


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## sttom (Sep 22, 2020)

Connecting Carson City would require the construction of a brand new right of way since the V&T was dismantled sometime after WW2. I know the state says it wants to run trains between Reno and Carson City, but saying something sure as hell hasn't translated into constructive action. 

I personally think having a mandate and appropriate funding commitments to build an interstate corridor network would be far more productive than mandating a city get Amtrak service. To put it mildly, having a train once a day isn't remotely an adequate form of transportation. And that is what Amtrak is stuck with providing even though they are mandated to maintain part of a "balanced transportation system".


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## MARC Rider (Sep 22, 2020)

Serving Dover, Delaware would actually be a good use of government transportation funds. They spent a lot of money on the "new" freeway paralleling US 13 that connects Wilmington with Dover and the seashore points south. It's been 20 years since I spent a lot of time on Delmarva, but there was a lot of growth and traffic back them, and I can only imagine that there's been more since. The service could be a Northeast Region branch line similar to the various Virginia extensions to the NEC. I would probably run it south, with two branches, one to Salisbury, the other to Lewes/Rehobeth Beach and Ocean City. Surprisingly, there are a lot of people who live down by the ocean year-round.


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## jpeterson (Mar 28, 2022)

PVD said:


> Annapolis, MD


As an Annapolitan, I would _*love*_ this.


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## jebr (Mar 28, 2022)

Getting Pierre, SD onto the Amtrak rail network would be interesting, and almost certainly an amazingly large money suck with little hope of even having a 20% farebox recovery, even just looking at operating expenses. The rest at least seem somewhat feasible, even if they wouldn't necessarily be my top priority.

But yeah, if there was one city I'd exempt from it it'd be Pierre. If we were going to swap out service I'd run service MSP - Sioux Falls - Omaha and then Denver - Cheyenne - Rapid City - at least both of those routes would have some chance of having a reasonable farebox recovery.


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## LookingGlassTie (Mar 28, 2022)

Guess that leaves out Honolulu and Juneau...............


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## danasgoodstuff (Mar 28, 2022)

Serving something in every contiguous (?) State is a reasonable ambition, and even that will take some work.


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## Siegmund (Mar 29, 2022)

Not only a "reasonable ambition," but a really smart way to get a bunch of Senators and Congressmen on board. I would have loved to see the enabling legislation require service to every state, though I admit that the service to South Dakota, among a few others, is destined to lose money.

Sometime I need to look at how many congressional districts currently have at least one stop, and how many more could easily be added.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 29, 2022)

Problem is in some instances the state capital is not necessarily worth serving other than for symbolic or political reasons. For example here in Maine the capital Augusta is only the 9th largest city in a fairly rural state and although extending the Downeaster would not be terribly difficult it wouldn't be worth it unless part of a project to go further to Waterville and Bangor. We don't even have service yet to Lewiston and Auburn the 2nd and 4th largest respectively so those cities would matter more than Augusta.


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## Joe from PA (Mar 29, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Serving Dover, Delaware would actually be a good use of government transportation funds. They spent a lot of money on the "new" freeway paralleling US 13 that connects Wilmington with Dover and the seashore points south. It's been 20 years since I spent a lot of time on Delmarva, but there was a lot of growth and traffic back them, and I can only imagine that there's been more since. The service could be a Northeast Region branch line similar to the various Virginia extensions to the NEC. I would probably run it south, with two branches, one to Salisbury, the other to Lewes/Rehobeth Beach and Ocean City. Surprisingly, there are a lot of people who live down by the ocean year-round.



We have a second home in Lewes, Delaware...a 45 minute drive south of Dover. Back around 1915, a RR line did run from MD to Lewes and Rehoboth Beach. The area has become a retirement "hot spot", in part due to very low real estate taxes plus no state sales tax.


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## Joe from PA (Mar 29, 2022)

jpeterson said:


> As an Annapolitan, I would _*love*_ this.



That is where the Lewes/Rehoboth RR started back in the early 1900s. The ferry went to the RR station.

A link to this: www.goldenageofrehoboth.com


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## daybeers (Mar 29, 2022)

Joe from PA said:


> We have a second home in Lewes, Delaware...a 45 minute drive south of Dover. Back around 1915, a RR line did run from MD to Lewes and Rehoboth Beach. The area has become a retirement "hot spot", in part due to very low real estate taxes plus no state sales tax.


Unfortunately the rail service to Lewes ended a few years ago after DelDOT said the bridge across the canal had sunk into the abutments 7-8 inches due to erosion. They said the cost to replace or rehab the bridge was more than the cost to keep it open, but I think it was mostly so the state could stop subsidizing freight rail service. Silly that they had just spent many millions redoing crossings and gates.

They moved the bridge a few weeks ago, which was much much heavier than they estimated and quite comical actually, and it will be put with a fence and informational sign on the rail trail next to the library.

There was a feasibility study DelDOT did about Wilmington, DE to Ocean City, MD intercity passenger rail in 2013. I can't find the correct link for the PDF I have but I'll attach it here.


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## dwebarts (Mar 29, 2022)

jpeterson said:


> As an Annapolitan, I would _*love*_ this.


As a visitor to Annapolis, I would too. The commuter bus from DC isn't really suited for weekend treks from DC Metro to Annapolis, though it can be done if you can stay until Monday morning.


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## Joe from PA (Mar 29, 2022)

daybeers said:


> Unfortunately the rail service to Lewes ended a few years ago after DelDOT said the bridge across the canal had sunk into the abutments



True, but that bridge only handled tank car shipments of chemicals twice a month. The track, from the bridge, was only about a half-mile long. Any passenger service ended in the 1930s.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 29, 2022)

Joe from PA said:


> True, but that bridge only handled tank car shipments of chemicals twice a month. The track, from the bridge, was only about a half-mile long. Any passenger service ended in the 1930s.


Are y’all talking about a swing bridge?






Lewes Junction Railroad & Bridge Association


Preserving Southern Delaware's Rich Railroad History




lewesjunctionrr.org


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## daybeers (Mar 29, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Are y’all talking about a swing bridge?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes indeed, that one. Only a few left in the country that are manually operated.



Joe from PA said:


> True, but that bridge only handled tank car shipments of chemicals twice a month. The track, from the bridge, was only about a half-mile long. Any passenger service ended in the 1930s.


You're right. Makes perfect sense to discontinue the railroad, but still sad to see that part of Lewes' history gone, as it played a role bringing equipment to Fort Miles. It even transported a few pieces after it was turned into a state park.


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## rspenmoll (Mar 29, 2022)

Has there ever been passenger train service in Olympia, WA proper? The current Centennial Station is Lacey and before that, trains stopped outside the city limits in East Olympia. Likewise, the current station serving Montpellier, VT is in the adjacent town of Berlin. Was there ever a station in Montpellier itself?


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## danasgoodstuff (Mar 30, 2022)

There are some crying out for service though, Des Moines, Iowa for instance has tracks and a station, and is on the way from Omaha to Chicago, but hasn't had service for decades. Sioux Falls would make sense for SD but it's not really on the way to anywhere and its metro is only 1/4 million (not tiny but not enough in itself?). Boise, Idaho absolutely should have service; the metro is 3/4 million now and it's on the way from Denver and Ogden (or Cheyenne) to Portland. I'd say every metro over a half mil with existing infrastructure to at least get started with that connects reasonably to anything else, should have service. Vague enough?


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## Siegmund (Mar 30, 2022)

rspenmoll said:


> Has there ever been passenger train service in Olympia, WA proper? The current Centennial Station is Lacey and before that, trains stopped outside the city limits in East Olympia.



Yes, but not mainline service. A Northern Pacific local from Seattle to Hoquiam and Moclips went through Olympia proper until the late 50s. The track running southwest from Olympia to Gates (where it met the Centralia-Hoquiam line) has long since been lifted, but there is still freight trackage entering Olympia from the east, that could theoretically someday be used by the Sounder.

The map situation in Vermont was similar, with Montpelier having rails out of it in 3 directions but none of them main lines; it's not an area I know much about - you can look up the Central Vermont and the Barre and Chelsea in an old Official Guide as well as I can - but I imagine there was once local service.

Edited to add: Barre and Chelsea RR timetable, 1954, showing a daily mixed train.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Mar 30, 2022)

danasgoodstuff said:


> There are some crying out for service though, Des Moines, Iowa for instance has tracks and a station, and is on the way from Omaha to Chicago, but hasn't had service for decades. Sioux Falls would make sense for SD but it's not really on the way to anywhere and its metro is only 1/4 million (not tiny but not enough in itself?). Boise, Idaho absolutely should have service; the metro is 3/4 million now and it's on the way from Denver and Ogden (or Cheyenne) to Portland. I'd say every metro over a half mil with existing infrastructure to at least get started with that connects reasonably to anything else, should have service. Vague enough?


Interesting, I hadn't realized that Boise wasn't bigger - plus there are medium sized towns along the route (if not a lot of rural population compared to the east). Des Moines and Omaha should definitely have more access to rail transit. Iowa has a lot of decent sized towns and cities which would probably take to trains like the similarly-sized cities in Illinois.


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## toddinde (Mar 30, 2022)

Siegmund said:


> Not only a "reasonable ambition," but a really smart way to get a bunch of Senators and Congressmen on board. I would have loved to see the enabling legislation require service to every state, though I admit that the service to South Dakota, among a few others, is destined to lose money.
> 
> Sometime I need to look at how many congressional districts currently have at least one stop, and how many more could easily be added.


It all looses money. Profit for Amtrak isn’t the point. It’s a public service.


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## danasgoodstuff (Mar 30, 2022)

toddinde said:


> It all looses money. Profit for Amtrak isn’t the point. It’s a public service.


So then the question becomes is there somewhere in South Dakota there's a large-ish number of people crying out for this public service and can it be provided for a sane amount of $? Still measured in $ and the goal then becomes not losing too much relative to the other services which are and could be provided by Amtrak.


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## west point (Mar 30, 2022)

If the Delaware bridge was only 1/2 mile maybe a siding and pipeline to facility would be better?


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## WICT106 (Mar 30, 2022)

Madison, Wisconsin. We have to be willing to go fight for it, though.


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## danasgoodstuff (Mar 30, 2022)

WICT106 said:


> Madison, Wisconsin. We have to be willing to go fight for it, though.


If any of these are doable, surely, it's this one.


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