# adding ambus to guest rewards tickets



## Amtrak George (Apr 24, 2014)

My Wife and I are going on a trip to San Francisco Fisherman's Wharf, from Memphis via S W Chief Chicago to Los Angeles, thence Coast Starlight. The system won't book this route all the way to San Francisco, but will book it to Oakland (Jack London) or Emeryville. I booked the guest rewards to Oakland and asked if I could add the connecting Amtrak bus to Frisco at my own expense. I was told this could not be done.

Thoughts? advice?


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## oregon pioneer (Apr 24, 2014)

I had a similar problem with an AmBus on the end of my last trip. It was not in the system as a trip from my origin (BOS) to my destination (BND). I solved the problem by doing a two-zone redemtption BOS to DEN, plus a one-zone DEN to BND (which was in the system). It cost me the same total points for the trip (20,000 + 15,000) as a three-zone redemption (35,000). But I see you are only talking about a two-zone trip, and this technique unfortunately does not work with a two-zone redemption 

Since then, I have asked at flyertalk and gotten the combo I use most (BND to BOS & return) added to the system so it will work that way next time. Others know more than I about that forum, and how to use it to get a city pair added to the system. Your city pair should be in there, it just needs to be added. And they can't give you the reservation till it is!


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## the_traveler (Apr 24, 2014)

An AGR award also include an Ambus - in your case book the award to SF. In California, you can not ride the Ambus unless the trip includes a train portion. That's why you can't hook just Oakland to SF.

Since you must call AGR anyway since it includes connections, just book your award from Memphis to SF. It costs the same points as Memphis to Oakland!


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## Amtrak George (Apr 24, 2014)

OK, here's the problem: I want to ride the S W Chief before they reroute it; and my wife wants a trip on the Coast Starlilght. The system will not book me to San Francisco on this route, but will allow me to book to Oakland or Emeryville. I need to know if I am entitled to add on a paid ticket that connects with my Guest Rewards ticket for the Ambus connection from Oakland, or if I have to make my own arrangements to get to Frisco. If I am on my own, then should I detrain in Oakland or Emeryville, and what is the best way to get to Fisherman's Wharf from these stations?


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## the_traveler (Apr 24, 2014)

No need. You must call to book anyway. So when you call AGR, just ask the agent that you want to go from Memphis to San Francisco.


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## SarahZ (Apr 24, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> No need. You must call to book anyway. So when you call AGR, just ask the agent that you want to go from Memphis to San Francisco.


Will this work, though? It's not a published route. I've tried to book SFW to LAX, and it won't let me take the Ambus to EMY. It wants me to board at OKJ.

Would the AGR rep be able to workaround that and get him on a bus from EMY?


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## the_traveler (Apr 24, 2014)

I think so. If not, ask for a supervisor.

The Ambus connecting to/from the CS connects at OKJ from/to the south only, and at EMY from/to the north only.


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## SarahZ (Apr 25, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> I think so. If not, ask for a supervisor.
> 
> The Ambus connecting to/from the CS connects at OKJ from/to the south only, and at EMY from/to the north only.


Oh, that's right.

Anyway, I just tried LAX to SFW (Fisherman's Wharf), and it's showing the Coast Starlight with a bus connection from OKJ to SFW.

George, I'd definitely call again. Maybe the first rep wasn't doing something right? You should be able to go from LAX to SFW with a bus connection.


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## brentrain17 (Apr 25, 2014)

Are you asking the same question twice? Seems like it. Call AGR. the same reward should cover the bus to Fisherman's wharf, I have booked this in the past with no problems. The bus drivers in California can now scan your E ticket.


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## Amtrak George (Apr 25, 2014)

No, just to clarify (see original post) I have already booked memphis to oakland via chgo and LA. I asked during the conversation if they could add the bus to SF and they said no. That's the problem. I don't even mind paying for the bus portion if AGR won't include it.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 25, 2014)

Or another way, why don't you just book to San Jose and ride the Caltrain to San Francisco? That ought to solve your problem, and Caltrain isn't _that _expensive.

I've been to San Francisco many times, and Fisherman's Wharf is greatly overrated! It's just a tourist trap, not fun at all. If you go there, just go there to ride the trolley (F), or the trackless trolley (49). If you want attractions, I suggest the Presidio, Land's End, ad/or Twin Peaks, but NOT Fisherman's Wharf. And the Ferry Building area is worth a walk. As for Chinatown, it's interesting, but it's really nothing like actual China.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 25, 2014)

Amtrak George said:


> No, just to clarify (see original post) I have already booked memphis to oakland via chgo and LA. I asked during the conversation if they could add the bus to SF and they said no. That's the problem. I don't even mind paying for the bus portion if AGR won't include it.


I'd call back and explain to the agent your problem (with the 1st agent) and ask them to modify your rez by extending it to SFW.


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## Ryan (Apr 25, 2014)

It's the "not a published route" thing that's a problem. You can book LAX-SF, but you you're trying to book it from Memphis the only published route is on the CZ. Just need to have the routing added to Arrow (easier said than done!).

Sent from my iPhone


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## Everydaymatters (Apr 25, 2014)

The Coast Starlight timetable shows Emeryville is only 5 miles from Oakland. The schedule also shows a bus from Oakland to San Francisco with the note to "San Francisco-see back", and there is a connection from both Oakland and Emeryville to Fisherman's Wharf, possibly on the same Ambus. Also, I believe that your arrival and departure times to and from the Ambus are good connection times.

It would seem that you should be able to book it all the way from either Emeryville or Oakland on your rewards reservation. Arm yourself with the schedule and call back. Amtrak seems to be neglecting bus portions on many routes. I had the same problem here on an Illinois Ambus.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 25, 2014)

RyanS said:


> It's the "not a published route" thing that's a problem. You can book LAX-SF, but you you're trying to book it from Memphis the only published route is on the CZ. Just need to have the routing added to Arrow (*easier said than done*!).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


Not necessarily. Contact AGR Insider on FlyerTalk and he'll look into it and most likely will get the route added to Arrow.


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## Ispolkom (Apr 25, 2014)

Everydaymatters said:


> The Coast Starlight timetable shows Emeryville is only 5 miles from Oakland. The schedule also shows a bus from Oakland to San Francisco with the note to "San Francisco-see back", and there is a connection from both Oakland and Emeryville to Fisherman's Wharf, possibly on the same Ambus. Also, I believe that your arrival and departure times to and from the Ambus are good connection times.
> 
> It would seem that you should be able to book it all the way from either Emeryville or Oakland on your rewards reservation. Arm yourself with the schedule and call back. Amtrak seems to be neglecting bus portions on many routes. I had the same problem here on an Illinois Ambus.


I'd call back and ask to add the bus on to the reservation. Say that your plans have changed, if asked. The worst that can happen is that the agent will say "no," but since that happens often enough for redemption trips that follow the rules, it pays to be persistent.


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## Bruce-C (Apr 25, 2014)

I think your problem is one of timing.

The CS arrives in OAK at 9:24 pm. The Ambus departs for San Francisco at 9:35 pm. At best,that is a very doubtful connection.


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## Ryan (Apr 25, 2014)

Nope. It books just fine if you try it from LAX. The bus exists solely to get passengers from OAK into San Fransisco.

It's a matter of getting the connection into Arrow. Sometimes Anthony can help with that, but he has to work with others (a pain) and can't just make it happen (which is why I said easier said than done).


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## the_traveler (Apr 25, 2014)

Bruce-C said:


> I think your problem is one of timing.
> 
> The CS arrives in OAK at 9:24 pm. The Ambus departs for San Francisco at 9:35 pm. At best,that is a very doubtful connection.


Since that Ambus exist ONLY for passengers connecting from the CS to get to SF, if the CS is late 20 minutes it will depart 20 minutes late. If the CS is 3 hours late, the Ambus will depart 3 hours late. It will not leave until the CS gets to OKJ. (Otherwise there will be nobody on the bus.)


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## me_little_me (Apr 25, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> it's really nothing like actual China.


Are you referring to Amtrak's dinnerware? :giggle:


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## Amtrak George (Apr 25, 2014)

HAPPY ENDING: I called AGR today and asked another agent if he could add the bus. I told him I would pay an additional fare if needed. He tried to add it to the reservation and the system would not let him. Then he asked me to hold and let him check on it. After quite a while he came back on and said he had gotten it approved. I am assuming he got a supervisor to help deal with it.

My reservation and e-ticket now include the bus.


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## Ryan (Apr 25, 2014)

Yay!!!


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 25, 2014)

Yay!

Let's hope this means it was or will be added to Arrow so others won't have the same problem.


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## Ispolkom (Apr 26, 2014)

Amtrak George said:


> HAPPY ENDING: I called AGR today and asked another agent if he could add the bus. I told him I would pay an additional fare if needed. He tried to add it to the reservation and the system would not let him. Then he asked me to hold and let him check on it. After quite a while he came back on and said he had gotten it approved. I am assuming he got a supervisor to help deal with it.
> 
> My reservation and e-ticket now include the bus.


I'm glad my suggestion worked. Enjoy your trip!


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## Bus Nut (May 16, 2014)

I called AGR and they said that 7000 series buses could not be added.

So I called the private operator and they said not to even call them until the day before.

Kinda sweating here!!


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## PaulM (Jun 3, 2014)

RyanS said:


> It's the "not a published route" thing that's a problem. You can book LAX-SF, but you you're trying to book it from Memphis the only published route is on the CZ. Just need to have the routing added to Arrow (easier said than done!).


Are you sure the "not" isn't a typo. This is the very definition of the "published route" bug. Even worse, it demonstrates the A-B and B-C but not A-B-C logical error.

The past Winter I had the same problem when I wanted to go from Fort Madison to Clearwater/St. Pete, the last segment being Tampa to STP bus. CHI to STP was published, as was FMD to TPA, but not FMD to STP. In this case, unlike George's, the AGR agent readily agreed to my request without resorting to higher authority.

So you could also call it an agent variation thing. But that would be unfair to the agents. Is really reasonable to expect a telephone agent to break the rules, even if they are illogical and unfair?


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## crescent2 (Jun 3, 2014)

Sometimes it works out and sometimes not.

I think Ryan is right about the reason. The problem was that the desired route to SF isn't published when starting _from Memphis_. I've looked into planning several AGR trips and have found that what is published or not published sometimes doesn't make much sense.

For instance, the only way I can go from Anniston (AL) to CHI is to go north on the Crescent to CVS or WAS. The Crescent also goes south to New Orleans, but that isn't published so it's not an option for me, although it would save me a zone each way. I didn't try to get an exception, because the Cardinal and/or Capitol Limited take me through new country. But it seems that both routes should be allowed--one's about as direct as the other, and the overnight in NOL has been allowed for some time.

CZ/CS, connection allowed in SAC but not DAV. ?


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## PaulM (Jun 4, 2014)

crescent2 said:


> For instance, the only way I can go from Anniston (AL) to CHI is to go north on the Crescent to CVS or WAS. The Crescent also goes south to New Orleans, but that isn't published so it's not an option for me, although it would save me a zone each way. .... But it seems that both routes should be allowed--one's about as direct as the other, and the overnight in NOL has been allowed for some time.


First of all, are you sure it wouldn't save you two zones each way?



> Circle trips are not permitted using a single redemption.


So where are you going to break it up? Atlanta, Toledo? ATN to ATl = 1 zone; ATL to CHI = 2 zones, which means it would cost as many points, at least in a roomette, as Miami to Seattle.

The overnight from the Crescent is allowed to the SL, but not CoNO. As I said, very arbitrary and illogical.


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## Ryan (Jun 4, 2014)

PaulM said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> > For instance, the only way I can go from Anniston (AL) to CHI is to go north on the Crescent to CVS or WAS. The Crescent also goes south to New Orleans, but that isn't published so it's not an option for me, although it would save me a zone each way. .... But it seems that both routes should be allowed--one's about as direct as the other, and the overnight in NOL has been allowed for some time.
> ...


Yes, because she has the trip booked as a 2 zone today, without having to break it up. It seems the agents have some discretion in waiving that rule (surprise!). I'm sure that they can see she lives there, and see that she isn't trying to pull some loophole stunt.


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## crescent2 (Jun 4, 2014)

My trip is booked this way: ATN-WAS-CHI (first award) then CHI-CVS-ATN (return award), so layovers are in Washington DC (to Cap Ltd) and Charlottesville (from the Card). Both of those are published routes, but for some reason ATN-NOL-CHI (all in the same zone) is not published. And it's my understanding that the overnight in NOL is the one that has always been allowed! I see no rhyme or reason in allowing (demanding) the multi-zone routes and disallowing the single-zone route. But any argument on my part would have been purely academic, this time anyway.

When I phoned AGR to book it, there was no mention of a circle route nor any discussion of how many zones. They just said it would be two 2-zone redemptions. I did ask them, just so I wouldn't get any unwelcome surprises, "So starting in Anniston is OK?" They said yes.

All I can figure is that, because those routes are the ONLY semi-direct way (other than via the forbidden NOL) that one can get there from here using Amtrak, they can't very well say I'm "trying" to go in a circle--as Ryan pointed out.

Actually I don't live in Anniston, I live in western Georgia, but Anniston is my "home station" and the one we've used for many years, if they wanted to check that. ATL is closer, so I guess if they had wanted to give me a hard time, they could've, but they didn't at all. They did not ask me where I lived.

I believe (?) it was the traveler who had told me he thought they would only count the central zone once, and he was right. It was very easy and pleasant to book the trip. I'm glad, because I don't like trying to convince someone to break rules, even if they make no sense to me.

I don't understand the CZ/CS "no DAV connection" either, but that's for another time.


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## PaulM (Jun 7, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Yes, because she has the trip booked as a 2 zone today, without having to break it up. It seems the agents have some discretion in waiving that rule (surprise!). I'm sure that they can see she lives there, and see that she isn't trying to pull some loophole stunt.


It looks like Crescent received the benefit of the little known double hockey stick exception to the circle rule. That's when the route satisfies AGR's, not the mathematical, definition of circle, but is shaped like a double hockey stick. However, only agents who aren't directionally disabled can apply the exception.

Seriously, what does where you live have to do with it? And what's the definition of a loophole stunt?

As I said, arbitrary and illogical.


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## chakk (Jun 8, 2014)

Bruce-C said:


> I think your problem is one of timing.
> 
> The CS arrives in OAK at 9:24 pm. The Ambus departs for San Francisco at 9:35 pm. At best,that is a very doubtful connection.


Not at all a doubtful coonection. The Ambus ALWAYS waits for the nb CS, regardless of its arrival time.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Ryan (Jun 8, 2014)

PaulM said:


> Seriously, what does where you live have to do with it?


Under the rules, strictly applied, if you live on the section of the Crescent in the Central Zone, you're not able to redeem a trip to anywhere in the Central or Western zone (except for the other stations on the Crescent). You can't go past NOL (the overnight connections aren't "published routings", and going through WAS of CVS and then heading west violates the no circle trips rule.

Obviously, this is illogical and untenable, so folks that live along that stretch of the line are given a little bit of leeway from the published rules.

As far as loophole stunts, you and I both know darn well what I'm talking about.


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## crescent2 (Jun 8, 2014)

RyanS said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously, what does where you live have to do with it?
> ...


I think everyone who frequents the forum understands what a loophole stunt is. One definition might be "trying to milk the system by attempting to take a route that's intentionally longer or less direct than it *has to be*." I think the "has to be" is the key here.

If the route is the only one available (published by Arrow), I don't see how AGR or anyone else could argue that it shouldn't be allowed. It's the ONLY way according to Amtrak. That certainly should, and apparently does, make a difference.

As to why it's the only routing (ie, disallowing the seemingly sensible NOL single-zone route), that's another question. But as it stands, the central-eastern-central- again routing is the only one that exists on Arrow.

Re your other question, I think that beginning in Alabama doesn't necessarily depend on living there or nearby, but obviously people do live there. Someone who had flown into Alabama but wanted to take a train instead of flying out or found themselves there for whatever reason would also be in the same situation. It would still be the only way to get there (CHI) from here (Alabama), at least according to Arrow. But, actually living there removes even the suggestion that someone is trying to milk the system by placing themselves in Anniston for the sole purpose of beating the system and obtaining a circle route. So, from that perspective, mentioning living there wasn't totally irrelevant.

Watch for it: New thread "ANNISTON LOOPHOLE FOR GETTING CIRCLE ROUTE!" :giggle: Not.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 8, 2014)

Excellent Post Crescent! And my condolences for living in Alabama! (Cue Lynard Skynard! LOL)


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## crescent2 (Jun 8, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> Excellent Post Crescent! And my condolences for living in Alabama! (Cue Lynard Skynard! LOL)


Sorry, Jim, the last laugh's on you this time! I don't live in Alabama!! bahwahha! Although I've been accused of it before. :giggle: Western Georgia, which is close enough... 

Disclaimer: No offense meant to the true Alabamians, just messing with you! My son and his family live in AL and love it.


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## PaulM (Jun 9, 2014)

RyanS said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously, what does where you live have to do with it?
> ...


If you substitute "board" or "detrain" for "live", I agree with you. I've never had an AGR agent ask me where I live.

Regarding the "leeway" given those wanting to board or detrain from the southern regions of the Crescent, I'm sure I could find other examples just as illogical and untenable. Once upon a time, AGR supposedly codified and published the rules. It was obvious to me at that time, that "leeway" would still be required to make rulings logical and tenable.

I honestly don't know what a loophole stunt is. Would you say Galesburg, IL to San Diego via CHI, PDX, and LAX is one?


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## the_traveler (Jun 9, 2014)

If it is published as GBB-CHI-PDX-LAX-SAN, then no. However, me thinks the only published route between GBB and SAN is via the SWC and Surfliner.


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## PaulM (Jun 9, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> If it is published as GBB-CHI-PDX-LAX-SAN, then no. However, me thinks the only published route between GBB and SAN is via the SWC and Surfliner.


It was a trick question  Back when I did it in Jan 2013, actually starting in QCY, IZ -> EB -> CS -> PSL was a published route. I'll bet it was one of the last times 27 got into PDX early. IZ ->TE is also published. Also, I'm almost certain CZ -> SJ -> Bakersfield bus was published at that time.

So, your are saying

Published ==> not loophole stunt

But Ryan says the proposition

Not published ==> loophole stunt

is not necessarily true; at least for the Cresacent -> CL itinerary in question.

These two examples point out the difficulty defining a loophole. In my example you had 2 round-about routes (TE and CZ, SJ, bus) and one extremely round about route (EB) being published, despite there being a very direct route (SWC) available. Conversely, in the case at hand the only published route (CR, CL) is round about, AGR calls it a circle, despite there being a more direct (CR, CoNO) available but not published.


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## guest (Jun 10, 2014)

It doesn't seem strange that the northern routes are allowed. They may be roundabout but a more direct route doesn't exist within Amtrak. What is strange is that the CONO routing is not published. It's also roundabout due to the skeletal network but no more so than the other available routing.

AGR should think about using some criteria other than published-unpublished if Amtrak can't get it's computer system to include more routes.


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## Ryan (Jun 10, 2014)

PaulM said:


> But Ryan says the proposition
> 
> Not published ==> loophole stunt
> 
> is not necessarily true; at least for the Cresacent -> CL itinerary in question.


a) I never said that. There exist logical, non loophole routes that remain unpublished unpublished.

b) I also wouldn't define GBB-SAN via PDX as a loophole, since it's not a "circle trip".

c) The Crescent -> CL itinerary is published.

The confusing summary:

1) If it's published, it isn't a loophole stunt. However, being an unpublished trip does not necessarily make a loophole stunt (some unpublished trips make perfect sense).

2) If isn't a circle trip, it isn't a loophole stunt. However, being a circle trip does not necessarily make a loophole stunt (some circle trips make perfect sense).


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