# Clearing customs in Vancouver at train station



## Willow (Feb 27, 2013)

Has anyone cleared customs at the Amtrak station in Vancouver (going into Vancouver) with a possession charge in their very distant past? (42 years distant)


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## white rabbitt (Feb 27, 2013)

i can answer that i had a acid bust in my past (1967)

and when i got off the train they did a ncic check at customs

denied me entry into canada they had me stay on the cascade till it left going back to seattle


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## PRR 60 (Feb 27, 2013)

I would not assume that you will be admitted to Canada. Canada is very strict about not admitting persons who have convictions for crimes that are also considered crimes in Canada. That includes seemingly minor offenses. With inter-connected databases, it is easier than ever for a prior conviction to be discovered by a border agent.

Over the last year that general policy was eased a tiny bit. Border agents have the digression to issue on the spot a Temporary Resident Permit (TRP) to allow immediate entry for someone with one conviction for a minor offense. However, that policy does not mean everyone will get such an accommodation. There is some thought that it is an economic call to allow admission in cases where denying admission to one person in a group would result in an entire group deciding to turn back (with their dollars in-hand). As an individual, I would not bet getting on entry that way.

A TPR can also be obtained through application prior to attempting to enter Canada. The link above describes the process. It sounds like a major PITA to get.

Basically, you have three choices:

1 - Don't try to enter Canada.

2 - Attempt to enter hoping they either will not find your issue or, if they find it, they decide to issue the TPR and let you in anyway (with the possibility or even probability you will be turned back).

3 - Go the prescribed route and apply for a TRP through the normal, involved and time-consuming process.


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## TrackWalker (Feb 27, 2013)

Do not lie to Customs and Immigration on any question they may ask. They will know if you are and it will only make matters worse.


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## white rabbitt (Feb 27, 2013)

vancouver is a vary busy port city

if u tryed entering at blaine on greyhound

they might let u in but not likely 3 months ago i crossed from detroit to windsor

and got in they did not bother me or run my name

i think it comes down to the custom man's day if he is in a good mood he might let u in


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## dart330 (Feb 28, 2013)

I recently saw an article stating that Canada won't let you in if you have ever had a DUI. Seems pretty strict, but I find the customs going into Canada are much less hostile than when coming back into the US.


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## TVRM610 (Feb 28, 2013)

For what it's worth I recently went into Canada at Niagra Falls and left through Vancouver (both by train) and was surprised how strict both sides were. The Canadian side wanted to know how I paid for my train trip, who my employer was, when I was expected back at work, when I booked my train trip, where else I was going in the States after I left Canada, etc. etc.


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## yarrow (Feb 28, 2013)

we took the cascades to vancouver from seattle last week. we go to canada 3 or 4 times a year. no criminal record of any sort yet they went over us with a fine toothed and unfriendly comb. everything out of our bags and wallets was checked. all sorts of questions. coming back into the usa the customs inspector looked at our passports, said "welcome back" and that was it. hope to never go through the experience we had with canadian customs again


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## MrFSS (Feb 28, 2013)

yarrow said:


> we took the cascades to vancouver from seattle last week. we go to canada 3 or 4 times a year. no criminal record of any sort yet they went over us with a fine toothed and unfriendly comb. everything out of our bags and wallets was checked. all sorts of questions. coming back into the usa the customs inspector looked at our passports, said "welcome back" and that was it. hope to never go through the experience we had with canadian customs again


You think that is bad - try entering and departing from Israel.

Last time we left that country we were in the interrogation area at the airport for almost *three* hours. We were with a tour group and they separated us into smaller groups. They would ask a question of one of us in our small group and then go ask the same question to another small group. You needed the two answers to be the same. Not a fun experience. Very nerve wracking.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 28, 2013)

Gee, you guys are making me glad I don't have any desire to travel overseas (or across the border here in North America) other than maybe to Ireland (especially if my son-in-law gets the job he's interviewing for over there). Hope Ireland is not too difficult to enter or leave.


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## pennyk (Feb 28, 2013)

I have been to Canada twice in the past 2 years by train. The first time - on the Maple Leaf; the second time on the Adirondack. I had no problems at all. I was asked a few routine questions (in English) and there were no issues or follow up. Neither time was my luggage or personal effects inspected. I guess I look like a harmless little old lady. :giggle:


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 28, 2013)

pennyk said:


> I have been to Canada twice in the past 2 years by train. The first time - on the Maple Leaf; the second time on the Adirondack. I had no problems at all. I was asked a few routine questions (in English) and there were no issues or follow up. Neither time was my luggage or personal effects inspected. I guess I look like a harmless little old lady. :giggle:


Or a harmless yoga instructor. :giggle:


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## USN-retired (Feb 28, 2013)

pennyk said:


> I have been to Canada twice in the past 2 years by train. The first time - on the Maple Leaf; the second time on the Adirondack. I had no problems at all. I was asked a few routine questions (in English) and there were no issues or follow up. Neither time was my luggage or personal effects inspected. I guess I look like a harmless little old lady. :giggle:


Perhaps you hit the nail on the head. I have been to Canada many times and not been subjected to any searches; however, the last time I went to Canada was over three years ago. Have done quite a bit of foreign travel since then though. I have no problem with what a country does to find out who and/or what is coming into it. Ever noticied how long it takes a foreigner to clear our customs and immigration?


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## fairviewroad (Feb 28, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Gee, you guys are making me glad I don't have any desire to travel overseas (or across the border here in North America) other than maybe to Ireland (especially if my son-in-law gets the job he's interviewing for over there). Hope Ireland is not too difficult to enter or leave.


Don't let the negative experiences listed here dissuade you from traveling. Over the past 10 years, I have entered Canada probably close to 50 times, by

plane, private auto, train and even ferry. Only ONCE did I have anything approaching a negative experience...at a small, rural crossing from Minnesota

into Manitoba, I was given the "white-glove" treatment by a pair of (I feel) bored agents who asked me to get out of the car and they went over ALL of my

possessions while wearing white gloves (they even removed my CD's from their cases and inspected the liner notes). Fortunately I was traveling "light" and

this took no more than 20 minutes.

But that aside, my typical experience at the border is a couple of perfunctory questions and I'm on my way. Perhaps it's my frequent crossings that show that

I'm a "good guy" (and the fact that I'm never there for more than a week or so). But bottom line, if you hold a US Passport and have no criminal record, you

should have NO problems entering Canada, especially at major crossings.


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## SarahZ (Feb 28, 2013)

That's so bizarre. In my experience, it's super easy to get into Canada, but then I always get hassled coming back into the States. One time, they detained me for two hours while they asked me the same questions over and over and searched my car, threatening to arrest me if they cut their finger on anything in my trunk. They finally let me go after calling Lansing to verify all of my identification (are you freaking kidding me). I had my birth certificate and drivers license (this was before passports were required), and while the agent was on the phone, I decided to get snarky and started laying all kinds of stuff on the counter. In addition to my birth certificate and drivers license, I set down my student ID, two credit cards, two video store cards, my library card, and a punch card for Panera Bread.  I'm sure that didn't help my case, but I was beyond irritated.

Coincidentally, that was the exact same day they let a guy through with a bloody axe and hammer. He proceeded to kill nine more people before he was arrested. So I, a college student with nothing but a suitcase and laptop, was detained and hassled, but Mr. Bloody Weapons got through. According to the news, they didn't detain him because they couldn't immediately prove the blood was human. /facepalm

Anyway.

When I drove there in 2004, I had my friend with me, and she neglected to tell me she'd been arrested for assault three years prior. When we got to the border, they had us pull over and park at the customs office. I was really confused until, while waiting, she told me she'd been arrested. Sure enough, they came out and showed us how to turn around. I had to drive her all the way back to Kalamazoo before heading back. I didn't get to Toronto until 4:00 AM. To say I was pissed is an understatement, even though she didn't realize a three-year old assault charge would prevent her from entering the country.


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 28, 2013)

I've been to Canada a number of times in recent years and never experienced any problems. The worst time my wife and i had was more than 15 years ago at Kennedy Airport in New York when we came back from Europe. The U.S. customs guy went over our purchases with a fine tooth comb and then all of a sudden stopped the questioning and let us through. I think he will killing time until he went off duty.


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## ribbon50 (Feb 28, 2013)

I have never had a problem anywhere. The only thing that came close was passing from Bangkok to Butterworth on the overnight train (International Express) at the Malaysian border at Pedang Besar. Malay customs made everyone take their luggage off the train and open it in the customs building but mine hardly got a glance and we were on our way soon. Once at JFK (from Madrid) I had to declare unset diamonds (no duty on them). Customs wanted to search my luggage. I said fine but warned them it was mostly smelly dirty laundry and they waived me through. Guess I look friendly and harmless.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 28, 2013)

Since I let my passport expire many, many years ago, I will need to get a new one if I do decide to travel abroad/across the border. If my SIL gets the job in Ireland, I will begin the process of getting a new passport.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 28, 2013)

I go to to Vancouver on the train very frequently and Candian Immigration is VERY tight there and your name WILL be run. CBSA is linked with the US NCIC databases so your US criminal record, if any, will show. Entry will be refused for conviction of anything that would be a felony _in Canada, _which DUIs are, not sure about a pot bust, but it probably is.

If your conviction and sentence ended 5 of more years ago and there were no subsequent convictions, you can apply for "Rehabilitation" with Canada and be permanently cleared to enter. The process is involved, time-consuming, and must be done in advance, not at the border. Here's the link

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/rehabil.asp

I have traveled internationally a reasonable amount, and the worst time I ever have is entering Canada at the Vancouver train station. Consistently. I am polite and do not cop an attitude and get the third degree there all the time. I got a Nexus card now and it is a little bit better, since CBSA did a background check on me in order to get the card.

And, like the other poster, every time I return, the US Immigration person at Vancouver looks at my passport and says welcome back.


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## SubwayNut (Feb 28, 2013)

I had the opposite this fall and on most of my trips the Canadians have been nicer than our Department of Homeland Security officers. I was going on a quick round-trip overnight to Montreal on the Adirondack for a milage and to experience Ocean View. The CBSA officers who came through were very friendly and totally understood my reason for going to Montreal for the night. The next morning the US border patrol agent was totally suspicious of me. Except for making sure I had access to sufficient funds (flashed a credit card). Apparently a trip to Canada to "Ride a Train" in a dome car (through New York State) isn't a valid reason, and he assumed my trip had other intentions. He proceeded to search my backpack, told me to empty my pockets but never physically touched me. I was sharing the relatively empty car with some West Point Cadets in uniform coming back from a conference who I later chatted with briefly and they said the same agent had given them an extremely hard time wanting to know where there military orders were for being in Canada. I can't remember if that agent had a reader on him to swipe my passport.


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## zephyr17 (Feb 28, 2013)

It may well be only in Vancouver, but the OP was asking about Vancouver, and I've got a lot of experience with CBSA specifically at Pacific Central Station in Vancouver. They are consistently pretty tight and by the book. It has never stopped me from going, I've never been refused entry, but CBSA in Vancouver is consistently a pain in the butt. On the other hand, the US CBE guys there coming back are pretty relaxed.


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## SarahZ (Feb 28, 2013)

The funniest experience I had was when I crossed over the Ambassador Bridge. I had flown to Vancouver Island from Toronto, so I was returning through Windsor. Anyway, I had a nice, female agent at the bridge. She asked me to please pop my trunk, so I did. As she was looking at my luggage, this peacock of an agent strutted over and started barking at me - "Why do you have a tent in your trunk?!? What's all this?!? Where were you?"

Before I could say anything, the female agent gave him a look and said, "Um, she was on Vancouver Island. Why do you THINK she has a tent in her trunk?" Then she shook her head, shut my trunk, smiled at me, and waved me through. 

(Why, yes, I AM turning this into a Border Crossing Stories thread.)


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## greatcats (Feb 28, 2013)

I took the Cascades into Vancouver in October, 2011 and was handled very courteously and efficiently. In March of 2009 I drove across the Alberta border just north of Glacier National Park and that nasty SOB seemed to want to harass the first person across the border that morning. I felt like strangling him and was composing a nasty letter in my head. After searching my car, which they are entitled to do, he said " Thank you for your time, SIr. Have a safe trip. " That Canadian thereby spared me writing the letter. Disgusting behavior like this would seem to be a power trip on the part of small fish. I have cautioned a friend of mine, who several years ago had some sexual activity with an underage girl he was seeing at the time, about traveling into Canada without researching the matter because of the charges that were made against him.


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## gregoryla (Feb 28, 2013)

Last summer I took the CSL from L.A. to Seattle, then continued onto Victoria B.C. by ferry. Canadian customs took a quick look at my passport and I was through. Coming back, U.S. customs took an equally quick look at my passport, asked if I had any fresh fruit or vegetables (I had a banana, they were okay with that), and I was through. Didn't take more than 30 seconds at either end.


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## white rabbitt (Feb 28, 2013)

sorcha i went to windsor on a afternoon gambleing bus from the jewish community center

we got to the ambassador bridge they saw seniors going to gamble for a few hours

made sure we had passports then let the bus drive on comeing back same with the us saw seniors let us return


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## chakk (Mar 3, 2013)

USN-retired said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> > I have been to Canada twice in the past 2 years by train. The first time - on the Maple Leaf; the second time on the Adirondack. I had no problems at all. I was asked a few routine questions (in English) and there were no issues or follow up. Neither time was my luggage or personal effects inspected. I guess I look like a harmless little old lady. :giggle:
> ...


Lots of foreign travel also with no holdups at any of the US customs points upon my return. Although I do remember one customs agent telling me in JFK on a return from a business trip to Brussels that he might have to personally inspect and confiscate the Belgian chocolates I was bringing back for my wife. :giggle:


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 3, 2013)

> author="chakk" data-cid="426364" data-time="1362289993">Lots of foreign travel also with no holdups at any of the US customs points upon my return. Although I do remember one customs agent telling me in JFK on a return from a business trip to Brussels that he might have to personally inspect and confiscate the Belgian chocolates I was bringing back for my wife. :giggle:


I had a similar occurance at Universal Studios in FL with cookies in my backpack. :giggle:


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## jis (Mar 3, 2013)

chakk said:


> USN-retired said:
> 
> 
> > pennyk said:
> ...


Lots of foreign travel for me too. While entering the US through an airport, I have not met any Customs or Immigration Officer in quite a while. The usual routine is walk up to the Global Entry Kiosk, stick yur passport in it, put four fingers on the fingerprint reader, tap on the screen to answer a few standard questions, get the entry printout, and walk down to baggage claim, pick up the bag, hand the slip to the agent at the gate and walk out (or into US).
At the Canadian border last year on the Adirondack, I must admit I had dozed off waiting for the US CBP inspector to come by. When she came by she took my Passport asked me, where were you last summer? I said "Huh?" She said "Looks like you were in Israel. You don't remember?" I said "Well of course but I go there a couple of times a year, and it is nothing memorable". She looked at me, shook her head and said "Welcome home".

Never had a problem with USCBP, British Border Protection, Canadia CBSA, Indian Passport Control or about half a dozen other countries in the last decade or so.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 3, 2013)

I just went through the Gauntlet in Vancouver after riding the Cascades #510 from SEA-VAC,after the Long walk up the Platform through the Prison Fences on both sides of the Train, No Problems, the Friendly, Efficiient Canadian Agents looked @ your Passport, took the Declaration Card, asked why you were coming to Canada and said "Welcome to Canada eh!" and waved you through into the Station! Total time, 30 Seconds! 

Crossing into the US @ Niagara Falls on the Maple Leaf was a Different Story by the US HLS Troopers! Everyone had to get off the Train (including Handicaped), Walk down a Hall to a Desk with at least 1O Uniformed and Armed Troops,Stand in a Single Line (there were about 150 Passengers) then we all were asked Several Questions, turned in our Declaration Card and EVERYONES Bags were gone through Thoroughly! Elapsed time, 2 and 1/2 Hours! Welcome Home indeed!  Ive found this Crossing to be Consisently the Worst Ive ever been through except for Laredo, Texas on the Mexico Border!


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## TVRM610 (Mar 3, 2013)

Jim.... What you are describing, in my experience is not the difference between US and Canada but rather the difference between those 2 points of entry and how they operate. I did the opposite of you in January.. Maple Leaf to Toronto, Cascades to Vancouver (after the Canadian of course). The Niagara falls was exactly how you described with the Canadian guards, although not all the luggage was searched. Going back at Vancouver was about as easy as you described, the US agent even asked me how my train trip was.


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## Notelvis (Mar 3, 2013)

On a vacation 8-9 years ago my wife and I flew to Seattle, took the Talgo to Vancouver, and ferried over to Victoria for three nights, ferried back to Vancouver and caught the Canadian to Winnipeg and flew home from there.

Customs was efficient and polite going both directions although I was caught off guard when the US agent asked me "Why are you flying from Winnipeg?" The only answer I could manage after a couple of 'ummms' was "That's where I got off the train."


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## greatcats (Mar 4, 2013)

In October, 2011, following my trip on the Canadian, I took the Maple Leaf Toronto to Rochester. I did not have the experience described by another poster on the train. I was perfunctorily and courteously questioned rather briefly and that was it for me. They did take perhaps 20 passengers off the train for further questioning. I believe we were there nearly two hours, which seems a terrific waste of time, although the train kept its schedule. Of course, Customs can change their routine.

I was more annoyed the year before when I drove from Quebec into Vermont. I was questioned outside and then politely told to park the car and go inside the office. I was then made to wait in the office for further questioning. Travelers wanting to use the rest room had to be escorted outside by an officer. Ahem! A French Canadian woman was complaining loudly and the officers threatened to delay her further. ( I tried to shush her up for her own benefit. ) After waiting around 45 minutes, the officer asked me for the key to my car, went outside to inspect it, and a few minutes later returned and sent me on my way. I s this stuff really necessary?

A few weeks ago I landed late at night from Costa RIca at Los Angeles International and was efficiently handled and welcomed back. I'm going to research these more efficient ways of doing this, such as the Global Entry mentioned above.


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## HiGracie (Mar 4, 2013)

Very interesting thread. Many years ago I was detained crossing by car into the US from Canada into NY through the Adirondacks. I was in a rental with my newly committed fiance ten years my junior with a California ID and he with a RI ID. We had taken a road trip starting from RI. They searched every inch of my car and highly questioned the scars on my arms, continually referring to me as a 'cutter'. Fast forward to now, and I work in drug policy reform and pretty much figure I have an FBI file but my record is squeaky clean and I never have any issues flying or moving about the country, though I'm very curious what Canada's perception of my career choice may be.


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## white rabbitt (Mar 4, 2013)

one time after 2002 i took the train to vancouver

they ran my name on ncic found i had been busted

for acid took me in a room strip searched me looking for

drugs then when they did not find anything refused me

entry into canada put me back on the amtrak returning to seattle

and i just returned on the train to san francisco vancouver

is just the worst place to cross even driveing or greyhound and

crossing at blaine

blaine is as bad as vancouver


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## GG-1 (Mar 5, 2013)

Aloha

Guess it is good the Canadian Agent wasn't upset with my granddaughter when she told the agent the display of the flag was wrong. Between the Olympics and my work she learned Flag protocol.


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## SubwayNut (Mar 5, 2013)

I've only taken the Maple Leaf entering the US almost exactly a year ago (Just remembering I was setting off on the Canadian a year ago to this day) and it was just like the Adirondack. They walked through the train, I still remember that they had a hand-held passport scanner and they asked me for my drivers license because they claimed they couldn't read the barcode on my passport after I asked "Why do you need my license, my passport isn't good enough?. They offloaded the two sets of non-US/Canada foreign nations (two retired British couples) and took them into the small customs office to do there paperwork. A different employee asked me about my luggage for the customs/agricultural inspection. The process was relatively quick because they finished early enough to give us at least a 40 minute fresh-air stop to wonder around the Niagara Falls Station.

I didn't know that offloading of the Maple Leaf is the norm.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 5, 2013)

SubwayNut said:


> I didn't know that offloading of the Maple Leaf is the norm.


It was not a year ago, when both me and Mrs. Blackwolf re-entered the US at Niagara Falls. In fact, no-one was taken off the train at all. All passengers were processed in their seats, passed, and the train left on-time per the schedule for points South of the border.

Seems like an anomaly to me.


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 5, 2013)

My most interesting experience crossing the border was on VIA’s “Atlantic”. Then the train was restored in 1985 after a 4 year hiatus, there was a whole new set of procedures and new Customs Officers who hadn’t worked a train before. Previously sleeper passengers had just been left along. Now they woke everyone at 3am in Jackman, Maine. The Officer asked me what the purpose of my trip was and I told him I was in the US only because the train was (which was the truth). He asked me if I was trying to be “smart” and said he would be back to see me. Well he must have got the same answer from everyone else as he never came back.

If they had just left the passengers alone, they would have gone to sleep in Canada and woke the next morning back in Canada, most not even realizing they had been through the US. Eventually the Border Agents rode the train and a seal was placed on each door. Only those getting off in the US were examined and those getting on were checked by Canada Customs when the train crossed back into Canada at McAdam NB or Magantic, Quebec.


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## AlanB (Mar 5, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> SubwayNut said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't know that offloading of the Maple Leaf is the norm.
> ...


Coming into the US on the Leaf, offloading at present is NOT the norm. I understand that it may well become the norm with the new station and customs facility.

Going into Canada however on the Leaf, offloading is the norm. Has been now for at least a year, and I think close to 2 years, if not even over that a bit.


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## chakk (Mar 7, 2013)

gregoryla said:


> Last summer I took the CSL from L.A. to Seattle, then continued onto Victoria B.C. by ferry. Canadian customs took a quick look at my passport and I was through. Coming back, U.S. customs took an equally quick look at my passport, asked if I had any fresh fruit or vegetables (I had a banana, they were okay with that), and I was through. Didn't take more than 30 seconds at either end.


Ummm. Let guess. The US Customs agent politely asked you, "Sir, why do you have a banana in your ear?"

And you replied, "I'm sorry. I can't hear what you are saying. I have a banana in my ear."


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## Not Going Back (Aug 16, 2013)

Just 48 hours ago I was about to pull into the Vancouver train station with 100 business colleagues to attend a conference. I have a DUI charge that has not been resolved in court yet but was told by my lawyer that it would be fine because there was no conviction yet - we're awaiting the court date. I was singled out, pulled into a back room and harassed and intimidated me for 90 minutes. Mind you I have NO conviction on my record nor any priors. He asked me what I was doing there and I informed him it was to attend a conference and I had clients in attendance, etc. The agent (Kennedy) told me he didn't have to let me in and I had to make a case why it would benefit Canada for him to do so. I thought, Um. I don't know - maybe because I came in to attend a business conference to learn about Canadian tech companies, potentially recommend some to investors and spend a fair amount of money in the city?

I was very cooperative and taken off guard and started explaining what I do for a living and how it would benefit. He stopped me and flat out said - "I could let you in but I'm not going to." He also told me "I just don't believe that you bring enough benefit to Canada to let you in." He threatened to keep at the station in the holding cell quite a few times and then finally said he'd let me go to my hotel room. "You can sleep for four hours but have to be back at 5:30 in the morning for a 6:30am train which will take you out of Canada. If you don't show up by 5:30am we will send law enforcement out to find you and bring you back." Then he took my passport as collateral and let me go. Again, no conviction, no priors of any kind. It was utterly traumatizing and humiliating. And once I started crying he just smiled at me and put some raggedy toilet paper in front of me and said - "Here you go, happens all the time."

My lawyer is appalled and has not once heard of this happening without a conviction charge. She has had a ton of clients go back and forth without problem while a case is pending. This guy just decided he didn't want to let me in - despite knowing I was there with clients and for a business trip and there was no conviction. I had no choice but to get on a train at 6:30am - completely distraught. The sad thing is, there isn't anything I can do to raise this or report him. Customs operates in their own little bubble. I'm still checking with a Canadian lawyer next week because I want to be very clear on what rights if any someone has in this situation and if there are points you can make, things you can say, or documents you can bring in so you aren't bullied. I have Googled ad nauseum about this topic but just see info about inadmissability with a conviction but not being kicked out without one. I just think people need to know that even if you haven't had a conviction and your case is still open, if a customs agent decides they just don't want to let you in - they won't and you could be refused entry while the rest of your entire party is allowed in.


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## Braniff747SP (Aug 16, 2013)

I was on the Adirondack last week, northbound. Canadian customs was simple (guy walking through the train with a stamp, nothing advanced.) what was out of the ordinary was the one and a half hour stop by CBP on the line while they went car by car with the dogs (throwing stuff around to boot.) not common for a northbound train; we assume that they where looking for something.


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## Acela150 (Aug 16, 2013)

Braniff747SP said:


> I was on the Adirondack last week, northbound. Canadian customs was simple (guy walking through the train with a stamp, nothing advanced.) what was out of the ordinary was the one and a half hour stop by CBP on the line while they went car by car with the dogs (throwing stuff around to boot.) not common for a northbound train; we assume that they where looking for something.


This is normal.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 16, 2013)

For what it is worth, a sovereign country has the right to deny admission to any non-citizen. Canada is hooked into the US national criminal database and your arrest was doubtless in it. You didn't need to have already been convicted, but just awaiting disposition for that agent to tag you as undesirable and denied entry. If you had been already been acquitted, it would be probably would be another story.

Immigration agents at ports of entry the world over are pretty much the final authority on whether a non-citizen is admitted or not. US Immigration agents can and do deny entry to people that have _already been issued_ US visas if they they get too suspicious, for instance.

With that said, I have to say I have been consistently hassled more by the CBSA at Vancouver's Pacific Central Station then anywhere else I've ever been. They are really hardnosed there and I can't say I am surprised they took a particularly hard line. That is one reason why I finally got a Nexus card, so now I've been background checked by CBSA, and going to Vancouver for the day is a bit less hassle now.


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## TVRM610 (Aug 16, 2013)

Just to be clear this has nothing to do with the Railroad. This is Canada not wanting someone who was recently arrested for DUI coming into their country. That makes perfect sense to me as I feel like DUI is still not taken serious enough in this country.

To the OP... Guess you should have thought about the consequences before drinking and driving.


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## Eris (Aug 16, 2013)

TVRM610 said:


> Just to be clear this has nothing to do with the Railroad. This is Canada not wanting someone who was recently arrested for DUI coming into their country. That makes perfect sense to me as I feel like DUI is still not taken serious enough in this country.
> To the OP... Guess you should have thought about the consequences before drinking and driving.


'Cept in this country, we have a presumption of innocence- innocent until proven guilty... oh, Canada does, too. Adomonishing a person who has not been convicted that he or she should have thought about the consequences... well, that's patronizing. And useless.

I suspect Canada's issue here may actually be more subtle than a dislike of how the US handles DUI... the border agent, I'm speculating, was concerned about a person currently in the middle of criminal legal procedings in the United States perhaps fleeing to Canada.


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## jis (Aug 16, 2013)

In my experience, never go to a border checkpost assuming there is any presumption of innocence, and especially so at ones run by CBP. You may be sorely disappointed.  At border checkpost the ultimate authority is the agent standing in front of you. Yes, you can appeal what they do later etc., but at that point the agent is it. And this holds true for even US Citizens who do not have absolutely irrefutable evidence of citizenship. Afterall the agent has to decide that your Passport is not forged.

BTW, entering the US using a Visa actually has a bit of additional checks built into it, in the sense that the Visa is issued by the State Department run Consular Section. The actual entry into the country is handled by CBP which is part of DHS. So there are two different agencies run by two entirely different departments of the Federal Government involved and they can disagree.


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## SubwayNut (Aug 16, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> With that said, I have to say I have been consistently hassled more by the CBSA at Vancouver's Pacific Central Station then anywhere else I've ever been. They are really hardnosed there and I can't say I am surprised they took a particularly hard line. That is one reason why I finally got a Nexus card, so now I've been background checked by CBSA, and going to Vancouver for the day is a bit less hassle now.


I know the CBSA agents at Pacific Central Station are based at the Vancouver Airport. I know this from chatting with a conductor on an Amtrak Cascades train that was extremely late because of a freight derailment and we didn't arrive until 2:00am. He said the person hassling him the most from the delay was from the CBSA agents' supervisor who didn't want his agents sitting around at the train station doing nothing waiting for our train to arrive.

I've entered Canada both once at the Airport and at the train station and nothing was particularly different than other CBSA experiences. Curious if people have noticed the Airport taking a hard line as well. Perhaps the Airport training is an explanation for getting hassled more because Airport agents get slightly different training since their processing passengers off of overseas flights as well, not just travelers crossing the US/Canada land border.


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## SarahZ (Aug 16, 2013)

Eris said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Just to be clear this has nothing to do with the Railroad. This is Canada not wanting someone who was recently arrested for DUI coming into their country. That makes perfect sense to me as I feel like DUI is still not taken serious enough in this country.
> ...


That's in a court of law. Customs agents do not operate on the same principle. Until you have been _proven_ innocent, they have to abide by the rules and protect their country just in case you actually are guilty.


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## MooCow (Aug 16, 2013)

What I don't understand is why Customs agents are involved at all. Whether a person is admitted is a matter for immigration, not Customs. Why don't the Canadian officials know that?


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## jis (Aug 16, 2013)

Just like the US agency is called US Customs and Border Protection (US CBP) which handles both Customs and Immigration at the border, the Canadian agency is called CBSA for Canadian Border Services Agency, which handles both Customs and Immigration at the border. Essentially no difference in the roles played by the two agencies between US and Canada.

Colloquially in conversation often confusing terminology is used referring to the agents as Customs Agents. That does not mean that either CBSA or CBP agents don't know which role they are playing. Canadian and US officials know the difference. People posting on this forum may not know or may gloss over the difference in their posting.


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## fairviewroad (Aug 16, 2013)

Not Going Back said:


> The sad thing is, there isn't anything I can do to raise this or report him.


Well, one thing you could do is to contact the sponsor of whatever conference you were going

to attend and let them know why you never showed up. This would of course require disclosing

your DWI arrest but if you think your banishment from Canada was unreasonable you can certainly

"vote with your wallet" so to speak and let others know why you are doing so. This in turn could

result in increased pressure on the Canadian authorities to encourage their agents to be a little

more nuanced, shall we say, in their treatment of business travelers.

But like others have said, the immigration agent has broad authority to "call 'em like they see's 'em"

and I suspect that's not going to change anytime soon.

I'm sorry that you had that experience. If you do get acquitted please let us know here. If you get

convicted, though, you have no sympathy from me.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 16, 2013)

Eris said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Just to be clear this has nothing to do with the Railroad. This is Canada not wanting someone who was recently arrested for DUI coming into their country. That makes perfect sense to me as I feel like DUI is still not taken serious enough in this country.
> ...


Entering a country you are not a citizen of is a privilege, not a right. Not being allowed to enter Canada because you are suspected of DUI does not violate your intrinsic rights, you don't have that one. Immigration agents have wide latitude in deciding who can and cannot enter their country, they are not a court of law and they don't have to be one. They are not determing guilt or innocence or determining punishment, they are deciding if you are eligible to enter their country, which you not automatically entitled to do.
A lot of things work differently at the border when seeking permission to enter a country. Try invoking your 4th Amendment rights against warrentless search and seizure at the border and see how far you get.

By the way, you probably aren't going to have a choice about going back or not. Being denied entry is a BIG black mark for any country, and Canada will keep a record of that.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 16, 2013)

I have visited Canada hundreds of times (my Late wife was Canadian and I lived there for a year)and entered via Car, Air, Ship and Train and have never been treated Rudely but have seen people denied entry for a Variety of Reasons and even Arrested but this is True of the US also!  ! (This is also true of Mexico until a Small "Consideration", ie Bribe was provided!)The Reasons Generally involved Drugs and Alcohol Related Legal Problems but also Child Custody Issues, Outstanding Warrants, Improper ID and telling Lies to the CBSA when questioned! When you buy a ticket to Canada, whether via Air, Sea or Train, you give your ID Info to the Company that sells you the Ticket and as was said, this Info is provided to the CBP! I'm not aware of the Screening Process that is used by the Canadian Government (unlike our "Announced" Policy of Not doing it most Countries Profile Visitors) but have heard some Questions asked of persons trying to enter Canada that could only have been known by having such Information available by having run a Screen on said person before they got to Canada! (ie Criminal History, Marital and Child Custody Status etc.)

As has been said, the CBSA Agent is THE SOLE Authority on whether or not one is Admitted to the Country and this is True of the US also!  The Agent that was Rude to you and made you Cry is probably lacking in Social and PR Skills and is probably, in Fact ,a Bully and in need of Re-training but their Word is Final!

Hopefully your Legal issues will be Resolved, DUI is currently a Hot Political Issue and we have signs all over Texas that say "Drink, Drive, Go to Jail!" Hopefully you wont, and not to be preachy, but hopefully you wont Drink and Drive ever Again! Zero Tolerance is a Good Policy!

I'm not a Lawyer but Pleading Guilty is Not a Good Idea, consult your Attorney for Better Options!


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## zephyr17 (Aug 16, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> I have visited Canada hundreds of times (my Late wife was Canadian and I lived there for a year)and entered via Car, Air, Ship and Train and have never been treated Rudely but have seen people denied entry for a Variety of Reasons and even Arrested but this is True of the US also!  ! (This is also true of Mexico until a Small "Consideration", ie Bribe was provided!)The Reasons Generally involved Drugs and Alcohol Related Legal Problems but also Child Custody Issues, Outstanding Warrants, Improper ID and telling Lies to the CBP when questioned! When you buy a ticket to Canada, whether via Air, Sea or Train, you give your ID Info to the Company that sells you the Ticket and as was said, this Info is provided to the CBP! I'm not aware of the Screening Process that is used by the Canadian Government but have heard some Questions asked of persons trying to enter Canada that could only have been known by having such Information available by having run a Screen on said person before they got to Canada! (ie Criminal History, Marital and Child Custody Status etc.)
> As has been said, the CPB Agent is THE SOLE Authority on whether or not one is Admitted to the Country and this is True of the US also!  The Agent that was Rude to you and made you Cry is probably lacking in Social and PR Skills and is probably, in Fact ,a Bully and in need of Re-training but their Word is Final!
> 
> Hopefully your Legal issues will be Resolved, DUI is currently a Hot Political Issue and we have signs all over Texas that say "Drink, Drive, Go to Jail!" Hopefully you wont, and not to be preachy, but hopefully you wont Drink and Drive ever Again! Zero Tolerance is a Good Policy!


Canadian CBSA agents have real time access to US NCIS(?) criminal history database right at their station.


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## jis (Aug 16, 2013)

And they know who is coming in on a train because Amtrak provides that information in fulfilling APIS requirements. So they have ample time to screen those that are coming in ahead of their arrival.


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## FriskyFL (Aug 16, 2013)

If the DUI charge is eventually dismissed, or the defendant is found not guilty, would his chances of being admitted to Canada improve? Or is he persona non grata in the Great White North forever?


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## Not Going Back (Aug 16, 2013)

I really appreciate everyone's comments and feedback. Look, we all make mistakes and I made one. I'm owning it, not running away from it. I am very law-abiding and have a totally clean record to date. My entire point with posting, asking, and investigating with a lawyer, is to help educate other people who might be in the same situation. If I had known that there was a chance I would be denied entry despite no conviction (because that's all the info that's out there about inadmissibility) I wouldn't have gone - especially if it means I have some mark on my record now with Canada.

If he checked my passport he would have seen several Europe trips recently - definitely not trying to escape to a country with strict DUI laws to escape. That makes no sense to me. I just want other people who might be going through the same pending case to be aware, especially if going through this border crossing, that they could be denied and save them the hassle, humiliation, and potential further traumatization.


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## Eris (Aug 16, 2013)

I was unclear in my post- I wasn't faulting the Canadian border patrol agent- they're going to do what they're going to do, and I'm certainly in no position to protest that. I was faulting the previous poster who said, "Guess you should have thought about the consequences before drinking and driving," for jumping the gun on blaming the accused and being patronizing about it.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 16, 2013)

Not Going Back said:


> I really appreciate everyone's comments and feedback. Look, we all make mistakes and I made one. I'm owning it, not running away from it. I am very law-abiding and have a totally clean record to date. My entire point with posting, asking, and investigating with a lawyer, is to help educate other people who might be in the same situation. If I had known that there was a chance I would be denied entry despite no conviction (because that's all the info that's out there about inadmissibility) I wouldn't have gone - especially if it means I have some mark on my record now with Canada.
> If he checked my passport he would have seen several Europe trips recently - definitely not trying to escape to a country with strict DUI laws to escape. That makes no sense to me. I just want other people who might be going through the same pending case to be aware, especially if going through this border crossing, that they could be denied and save them the hassle, humiliation, and potential further traumatization.


If you are acquitted, or plead down to something not considered a felony in Canada, I'd get in touch with a Canadian Consulate to straighten your admissibility because of the denial of entry. If you were acquitted before trying to enter, there wouldn't be a record of denied entry. Since there is, if it were me, I'd get it straightened out with the consulate and Canadian Immigration before I went. Even working it out beforehand, I'd still expect heightened questioning in any case because of the denial.
PS-I have no idea what charge you could plead down to and have it be okay with Canada, but there probably is one (reckless perhaps?). If that is a concern to you, have a lawyer versed in Canadian immigration check it out before accepting the plea.


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## SarahZ (Aug 17, 2013)

It may not have been so much an issue of thinking you were "escaping" to Canada as them taking a chance you'll drink and drive in Canada. They very likely have a strict list of "yes/no" charges, and I'd bet $10 a DUI is on the "no" list, pending court trial or not.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 17, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> It may not have been so much an issue of thinking you were "escaping" to Canada as them taking a chance you'll drink and drive in Canada. They very likely have a strict list of "yes/no" charges, and I'd bet $10 a DUI is on the "no" list, pending court trial or not.


You are Correct Sorcha, Drug and Alcohol Issues , Gun and Child Custody Matters are the Big Flags for Canadas Border Agents but ANY Felony ,and even some Misdemeanors, can Deny you Entry into the Great White North!!


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## Mr Sunshine (Sep 18, 2013)

Interesting discussion. There really is a dearth of solid 'real world' information about entering Canada with a DUI conviction (or even a charge). I've reached out to the Consulate, Border Agency, Immigration Attorney and personal acquaintances. The answers are clear as mud:

Consulate: no time frame for TRP response, but with Foreign Service strike, assume 6 months to a year - basically making pre-applying for a TRP a non-starter for business meetings that aren't scheduled a year in advance.

Border Agency: responded with a screen shot of the rehabilitation options (pointing to Consulate, above).

Attorney: don't bother trying to get in.

Real People: no problem getting in, even when 'forgetting' to note conviction (even convictions less than a year old).

I've read the actual guidelines provided to border agents and they appear to indicate that a business function can be considered a valid reason for entry.

So my question: I have a DUI conviction from last year - only mark on a clean record. I have a business function at our Canadian office in Vancouver in November. My only option (if I go) is to apply for a TRP at airport. With complete honesty, itinerary, letters from my employer and documentation that my sentence has been served, what are the odds that I will be sent back? Given the 10's of millions of people travelling to Canada and the less than 7000 that get rejected, it seems like the story above is the exception rather than the rule. The one fact that disputes 'inadmissible under any circumstances' is the number of 'real people' with DUI convictions that get in (with no TRP or rehabilitation).


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## CHamilton (Sep 24, 2013)

Border Patrol's Horrific Treatment Of On The Media's Producer, Family & Friends Highlights The Lack Of Accountability From DHS




> By now we've all heard plenty of stories about ridiculous goings on at the border by Homeland Security's Customs and Border Patrol agents. We've written many times about questionable electronics searches. Still, I urge people to listen to the story that _On The Media_ producer Sarah Abdurrahman did for last week's episode, all about how she, her family and friends were all detained at the Canadian border for around six hours, the treatment they received and the lack of answers that anyone is willing to give when she asked questions (as a journalist) about these actions. Listen to it and try not to get angry at the shameful behavior of these agents supposedly representing our country....Basically, the CBP seems to act like you'd expect pretty much any group in authority with no oversight to act. They seem to feel free to terrorize people just because they can and because there are no recriminations. And there's basically nothing to be done about this. Abdurrahman finds out that they can submit a complaint, but that such complaints rarely lead to anything, other than getting a cursory letter saying that the complaint has been "dismissed."


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 24, 2013)

I've traveled all over the world myself, and never once been denied entry. However, I often find the process of admittance confusing and arbitrary. I've been questioned and searched in various countries and it's never clear to me what I've done or haven't done that suddenly risks the success of my trip. When I've researched what the "rules" are I've found that they're generally vague and undefined and that the actions of those who perform these checks are largely unchecked themselves. Why anyone from a democracy would cheer on a situation custom made for routine abuse is quite beyond my comprehension. But time and again I sense a certain zeal and affection toward the actions of boarder agencies in the posts of some members. Lower and middle class folks must generally plan trips well in advance in order to secure a reasonable rate, even though the border agencies can sit and wait until the last moment to consider refusing or detaining you. That leaves most of us at the mercy of a system that can sabotage years of planning and saving with nothing more than a hunch or a shrug.


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## California Dreamin (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm going to try and bring this interesting thread back around...I noticed the last post was more than 2 weeks ago...here goes 

My husband and I just booked an Alaskan Cruise for September 2014. It sets sail from Vancouver (we'll literally be in Vancouver for a couple hours). We both live in the states with US citizenship, however, I also have Canadian citizenship (but i travel with a US passport). My husband got a DUI back in Aug 2006, found guilty, and paid the piper. I think he had a number of community service days to complete. He has since had a clean record. We are trying to figure out what steps we should take (if any) to make sure he doesn't get turned around at the Amtrak station (we'll be coming up from Seattle by train). Reading this thread has me terrified that he'll get put on the next train back south and I'll be left with our 1 year old trying to decide if I should just blow off our $5k cruise that we've been wanting to do for years. We both know people that have DUIs that have gotten into Canada on several occasions without issue, but that is such a risk.

I've been reading around on Canada's immigration websites and found that since his DUI was more than 5 years ago, he's eligible for rehabilitation. That seems like the safest bet, as once you are deemed rehabilitated you no longer have to worry about being denied at the boarder. That sounds great, since I have family up in Canada that I'd like us all to be able to visit. My husband is worried that if he applies for rehabilitation, and for some reason is denied, that it will raise a big flag when we try to head up there next year and that he'll get denied at the boarder for sure.

Do any of you have any experience with someone filing for rehabilitation? Or traveling into Canada with your Canadian citizen spouse (if that affects his chances of getting in)? Thanks!


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## jis (Oct 11, 2013)

Here is a denial of entry story this time by the US. The train involved is the Adirondack....

http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-return-to-the-usa/


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 11, 2013)

"California Dreamin": Number 1,) Contact the Canadian Consulate (I believe it is in LA but there could be One in San Francisco Also??) This seems to Be one of Those "It Depends!" Situations with No Clear Answer! (My Late Wife was a Canadian Citiizen with a US Green Card which she used to go/to from Canada, not her Canadian Passport! When she Passed away I arranged to take her Ashes to Canada through the Candian Consulate in Dallas and I received the most Professional and Helpful Service I Ever Had and ive been Alll Over the World! MY Worst Experiences in International Travel Always were the Government Officials that Greeted You upon Arrival in the USA!!!

Number 2) For a Trip Involving that Amount of Money I would say Buy Trip Insurance, it's Worth It!!


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 11, 2013)

jis said:


> Here is a denial of entry story this time by the US. The train involved is the Adirondack....
> 
> http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-return-to-the-usa/


A perfect Example of Abuse of Power! The Old Saw about "I'm just Doing My Job!" Doesn't Apply here! And to think,Sometimes they Treat American Citizens as Bad or Even Worse!!! :help:


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## Jay (Oct 12, 2013)

If you really need to go to Canada and have a DUI or other conviction, I'd encourage you to contact an immigration lawyer with experience dealing with those issues. The expense may be worth it compared to trying to navigate another country's bureaucracy on your own.

That said, I enter Canada by air 3-4 times a year, and never experience much hassle (and I don't have a NEXUS). I also used to drive across a fair amount and seldom got much questioning, although that was mostly before 9/11. The only common issue, for my Canadian citizen relatives, was questions about how much shopping they'd done in the US, to see if they could charge them some kind of duty.

My guess is that trains, like buses, are viewed with particular suspicion as "backdoor" routes across the border, more likely to be used by drug smugglers, and possibly fugitives, than air travel (which is more expensive) or private car (which indicates you can at least afford your own vehicle, and they can check the license tag, etc).


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## California Dreamin (Nov 5, 2013)

Hi again,

When time permits, I've been able to look into filing for rehabilitation for my husband. It looks as though the average turn around time is >1 year, so that won't work for our upcoming trip. However, while researching, I came across this

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/bulletins/2012/ob389.asp and http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=143&t=8

So, if I understand correctly, we could be allowed to enter since it will be his first time entering the country. I've read some experiences where the boarder official will make you pay the CAD200 for the TRP, and some that don't. I guess we'll find out when we get there.

Either way, I'm feeling a little better about crossing the boarder. When I heard of the time it took to get approval for rehabilitation, I almost cancelled our trip. I'm glad I read a little further.


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