# BREAKING NEWS: Wisconsin Purchises Two Talgo Sets



## cpamtfan (Jul 17, 2009)

Wisconsin is reportadly purchesing two Talgo sets at $47 million a piece with ARRA money. I believe it has been announced on Jim Doyle's website. Never saw that coming in a million light years! 

cpamtfan-Peter


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## transit54 (Jul 17, 2009)

See here:

http://news.google.com/news/more?um=1&...MqZFS-jvY_4s_uM

I wonder if they will be built to FRA Tier III standards or whether a waiver will be sought.


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 17, 2009)

You will likely see more of these types of deals as the demand for rail passenger equipment increases. This is a win/win situation for WI, new trains and new jobs.


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## oldtimer (Jul 17, 2009)

Does anyone know if the old Milwaukee Road Shops still exist? If so would they be available to use by Talgo.


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## MrFSS (Jul 17, 2009)

Says they will run on the CHI - MKE route. I had hoped for a CHI - Madison train. Or, a Madison - MKE train. Maybe later.


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## wayman (Jul 17, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> You will likely see more of these types of deals as the demand for rail passenger equipment increases. This is a win/win situation for WI, new trains and new jobs.


It's also a win for Amtrak, since they'll presumably get to use the Horizon cars (?) currently on the Hiawatha elsewhere in the system. It wouldn't look pretty, and it wouldn't ride nearly as nicely as an Amfleet, but at times of capacity-crunch (holidays, whatever) they could toss an extra coach on the Silvers or the Crescent or the Lake Shore or the Cardinal...


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 17, 2009)

wayman said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> > You will likely see more of these types of deals as the demand for rail passenger equipment increases. This is a win/win situation for WI, new trains and new jobs.
> ...


The Horizons aren't designed for long distance service-- they're very tight and would need refurbished to go on those LD trains. I would never pay any amount of money to ride from WAS to MIA in a Horizon! 

As for the Talgos... eh, whatever get's Wisconsin what it wants. I just don't understand why they want Talgos as opposed to more traditional coaches that are lying around... Is Amtrak going to run these sets in lieu of the Horizons on Hiawatha service? Same route, Wisconsin bought consists?


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## transit54 (Jul 17, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> wayman said:
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> 
> > jphjaxfl said:
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I'm betting it will reduce their operating costs substantially as Amtrak won't be charging them to use its equipment. It's very difficult to get federal money for operating costs, but it isn't hard to obtain federal money for capital projects. WI saw an opportunity - grab some stimulus funds (i.e. free money) to build itself new trainsets will which 1) provide additional WI jobs and 2) reduce yearly operating costs of Amtrak service, an expense paid fully by the state. It's a smart move as far as I can see.


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## frj1983 (Jul 17, 2009)

The key is, I also think, the 80 jobs it will produce...even if it's only for a short time

I wonder where they will be assembled?

Yeahh for my home State!


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## MrFSS (Jul 17, 2009)

frj1983 said:


> The key is, I also think, the 80 jobs it will produce...even if it's only for a short time
> I wonder where they will be assembled?
> 
> Yeahh for my home State!


See *THIS* story.

Looks like Janesville may get the business and they are talking about Madison to Milwaukee service, too.


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## MattW (Jul 17, 2009)

Ok, so they're establishing this assembly plant to produce more than just a few trainsets so they can be delivered around the country. What are the chance of perhaps a rail startup like maybe...Georgia wanting to buy some sets to use on a system of some kind? (yes, read my sig)


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 17, 2009)

Wisconsin has also discussed extending some of the Hiawathas to Green Bay which would make a lot of sense.


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## MikefromCrete (Jul 17, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> Wisconsin has also discussed extending some of the Hiawathas to Green Bay which would make a lot of sense.


The news reports indicate that the Talgos would be used Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison if that route is approved for high speed funding (which will probably happen, as part of the Midwest High Speed Initiative). Two train sets could handle the existing Chicago-Milwaukee service, with perhaps a stand by Horizon set for maintenance times. The Horizons could be used on the existing Illinois service until new equipment is acquired for that purpose and then the cars could be used for the proposed Chicago-Rockford-Dubuque and Chicago-Quad Cities (on to Iowa) routes under consideration. Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn just signed a capital improvements bill that provides money for high speed rail and for CREATE projects in the Chicago area which would expedite freight and passenger trains through the nation's rail capital. Most of the funding for this bill comes from legalizing video poker machines in bars.

Although bi-level California-type cars have long been the favored equipment for Illinois high speed service, this might put Talgo in a better position to build trainsets for the entire Midwest system.

The Talgos purchase just came out of nowhere. I'm really surprised to see Wisconsin act on this. They've been taking about commuter rail from Kenosha to Milwaukee and Milwaukee light rail for years without any progress.

I can hardly wait for their arrival.


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## DET63 (Jul 17, 2009)

A fly in the ointment?



> *GOP lawmaker critical of trains purchase*
> _Saturday, July 18, 2009__, 4:00 AM_
> 
> By *Bob Hague*
> ...


Link

Grothman prefers buses.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 17, 2009)

DET63 said:


> A fly in the ointment?


If that's what you care to call a toothless whiner.

Betcha NC will buy a buncha these.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jul 17, 2009)

This is GREAT NEWS! I want to ride on a Talgo set its just getting out to the west coast I can easily make it Chicago though! A good day for all!


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## MikefromCrete (Jul 17, 2009)

DET63 said:


> A fly in the ointment?
> 
> 
> > *GOP lawmaker critical of trains purchase*
> ...


What an idiot.


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## sechs (Jul 18, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> I wonder if they will be built to FRA Tier III standards or whether a waiver will be sought.


The Talgo America website states that their Series VIII cars "will be fully FRA compliant."
What are they going to be using to pull these things around?


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## battalion51 (Jul 18, 2009)

IIRC the Horizon fleet is cleared to operate at 110 MPH. So even if the Talgos aren't online or are in need of servicing you can still operate a Horizon set in its place. I do have to think though that these trains will work just like their Cascades counterparts and have a diesel on one end (P-42 for these guys) and a Cabbage on the other. In all likelihood though you'll probably see a special paint scheme on these trains, so you'll likely see a few motors and Cabbages painted to match the set. Possibly a use for the rehabbed P-40's? Still awesome news regardless.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 18, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> IIRC the Horizon fleet is cleared to operate at 110 MPH. So even if the Talgos aren't online or are in need of servicing you can still operate a Horizon set in its place. I do have to think though that these trains will work just like their Cascades counterparts and have a diesel on one end (P-42 for these guys) and a Cabbage on the other. In all likelihood though you'll probably see a special paint scheme on these trains, so you'll likely see a few motors and Cabbages painted to match the set. Possibly a use for the rehabbed P-40's? Still awesome news regardless.


They are supposedly cleared for 125- they were intended to supplement the Amfleets - but Amtrak has internal restrictions to 90 mph (E60s were the fastest engines to haul them) due to stability problems at speed.


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## cpamtfan (Jul 18, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> This is GREAT NEWS! I want to ride on a Talgo set its just getting out to the west coast I can easily make it Chicago though! A good day for all!


Same for me!


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## VT Hokie (Jul 18, 2009)

What about the arguments about a unique small fleet, the need for dedicated spare parts and additional training, the fixed consist nature of the train, etc.? Those are always used as arguments against the Turboliners, Acela, etc.

But I think this is definitely good news, as long as Amtrak doesn't steal the trains and haul 'em off to Delaware!


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## BigBlueBuddha (Jul 18, 2009)

VT Hokie said:


> But I think this is definitely good news, as long as Amtrak doesn't steal the trains and haul 'em off to Delaware!


The trains will be owned by the state of Wisconsin, not Amtrak:

"They would replace aging trains on Amtrak’s Hiawatha line between Milwaukee and Chicago, which Wisconsin and Illinois pay for Amtrak to operate, about $7 million last year. Klein said the state’s costs would go down because it would own the trains rather than use Amtrak’s."

See full article here: Wisconsin State Journal


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 18, 2009)

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> VT Hokie said:
> 
> 
> > But I think this is definitely good news, as long as Amtrak doesn't steal the trains and haul 'em off to Delaware!
> ...


The Turboliners were owned by NYS.


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## bretton88 (Jul 18, 2009)

Woohoo! Go Wisconsin! The addition of TALGOs will definitely upgrade the level of service on the Hiawathas. Question though, will the Talgos have a cafe car? I believe the ones in WA do.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 18, 2009)

bretton88 said:


> Woohoo! Go Wisconsin! The addition of TALGOs will definitely upgrade the level of service on the Hiawathas. Question though, will the Talgos have a cafe car? I believe the ones in WA do.


The Talgos on Cascades service have both Café and a "Dining" Car which is, for all intent and purpose, a lounge car.


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## Cascadia (Jul 19, 2009)

The ones we have here in Washington are 10 or 12 years old, I believe. Does anyone know if the latest Talgo product differs in any recognizable way from the older models? I know they are structurally upgraded for the FRA standards. But are the interior arrangements any different?

Supposedly the train I normally ride 510/517 is going back to being a Talgo set soon, after being Superliners for more than 2 years now. But that was supposed to happen ages ago and still hasn't, so we'll see if this new date they gave brings Talgos. I much prefer the Superliners and will be sorry to see them go. Oh well the Talgos have nice big windows  gotta look on the bright side.

Kind of cool to hear of Wisconsin doing this although I wish they would have chosen something different. Are there really very many options though?


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## AlanB (Jul 19, 2009)

VT Hokie said:


> What about the arguments about a unique small fleet, the need for dedicated spare parts and additional training, the fixed consist nature of the train, etc.? Those are always used as arguments against the Turboliners, Acela, etc.
> But I think this is definitely good news, as long as Amtrak doesn't steal the trains and haul 'em off to Delaware!


Unlike the Turboliner's, Wisconson will not only own these news cars, but they along with Illinois pay Amtrak to operate the Hiawathas. In the case of the Turboliners, Amtrak was stuck with all the bills, while NY paid for nothing.


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## AlanB (Jul 19, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The Talgos on Cascades service have both Café and a "Dining" Car which is, for all intent and purpose, a lounge car.


Amtrak used the dining car as a dining car on the service to/from Canada.


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## AlanB (Jul 19, 2009)

Cascadia said:


> Supposedly the train I normally ride 510/517 is going back to being a Talgo set soon, after being Superliners for more than 2 years now. But that was supposed to happen ages ago and still hasn't, so we'll see if this new date they gave brings Talgos. I much prefer the Superliners and will be sorry to see them go. Oh well the Talgos have nice big windows  gotta look on the bright side.


It's in the computer and they are selling business class seats for the Talgos starting next Saturday. I updgraded so I'll be very unhappy if they suddenly pull it from service and leave the Superliner's there.

However, at least initially, the dining car will not be in service.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 20, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Kwitchyerbelliakin said:
> 
> 
> > VT Hokie said:
> ...


The Turboliners were not owned by NYS. Oddity in the contract: they would not pass to NYS ownership until Amtrak accepted them for use. So, in reality, they are owned by Amtrak, not NYS.


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## wrjensen (Jul 22, 2009)

Is part of the high speed have money to upgrade the MKE-CHI line? Currently they uses 2 trainset if the line is extended to Madison it seems they will need more then two trainsets unless they speed up the line


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## John Bredin (Jul 22, 2009)

wrjensen said:


> Is part of the high speed have money to upgrade the MKE-CHI line? Currently they uses 2 trainset if the line is extended to Madison it seems they will need more then two trainsets unless they speed up the line.


"Wisconsin will purchase two, 14-car train sets for $47 million. The agreement provides an option to buy two additional train sets if the state is successful in securing federal American Recovery and Reinvestment Act funding for the extension of passenger rail service from Milwaukee to Madison. " Cite


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## BigBlueBuddha (Aug 1, 2009)

Update and rationale for tilt-train technology:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/52231522.html


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## sechs (Aug 4, 2009)

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.


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## Steve4031 (Aug 4, 2009)

sechs said:


> I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.


How many Talgo trains are there in the Northwest? Potentially, more of these trains could be used for other Midwest corridor if other states put in orders.

I like these trains, but I was wondering how they would handle the winters in the midwest? Would severe cold hamper the tilting mechanism and the toilets, etc? I know Amtrak's other single level equipment has taken a beating in Chicago during the winter. I think that is why there was an interest in the bilevel cars for the Midwest.


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## EB_OBS (Aug 4, 2009)

There are five Talgo trainsets currently operating in the Pacific Northwest. As far as winter goes, in my experience last winter there were more problems with rail and switches than with the trains.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 4, 2009)

sechs said:


> I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.


When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.


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## Steve4031 (Aug 4, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.
> ...


Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.


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## jamesontheroad (Aug 4, 2009)

Cascadia said:


> The ones we have here in Washington are 10 or 12 years old, I believe. Does anyone know if the latest Talgo product differs in any recognizable way from the older models? I know they are structurally upgraded for the FRA standards. But are the interior arrangements any different?


Some clues: http://www.talgoamerica.com/


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## jphjaxfl (Aug 4, 2009)

I rode Spanish Talgos from Madrid to Barcelona in the early 1970s and it was very enjoyable. I was in first class and they served a very nice full course dinner at individual seats. ACF had tried to sell Talgos in the the US and I think there was 1 or 2 that operated in the 1950s, but since most US Railroads were getting out of the passenger business, there was no market. The Madrid-Barcelona line has a number of curves, but the ride was very smooth. Its ironic that after ACF is long dead, Talgo will be alive in the US.


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## wrjensen (Aug 4, 2009)

the MKE papers over the weekend said they are looking at building them at the old GM plant in Janeville or contract them out to Super Steel and build them in MKE where the Nippon and Alstom cars are built


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## saxman (Aug 4, 2009)

wrjensen said:


> the MKE papers over the weekend said they are looking at building them at the old GM plant in Janeville or contract them out to Super Steel and build them in MKE where the Nippon and Alstom cars are built


Looks like the mayor of Milwaukee is trying to get them to build the train sets there:



> State touts no-bid deal with Spanish train firmBy Larry Sandler, Stacy Forster and Patrick Marley of the Journal Sentinel
> 
> Posted: July 31, 2009
> 
> ...


Link to the article


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 4, 2009)

Idiots... no-bid jobs always end badly for the taxpayer.


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## volkris (Aug 4, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Idiots... no-bid jobs always end badly for the taxpayer.


Nonsense.

Quite often there will be only one company able to do a job or one that's known ahead of time to be the only one willing to do it for an acceptable price. The bidding process is wasteful in terms of both time and money in such cases. Ironically, sometimes it can even open up the potential for greater abuse as the image of openness and propriety can shield badly written RFPs targeted at benefiting specific people or organizations.

The evil no-bid job has lately became a symbol for political activism, twisting its actual nature far out of reality. And that will end badly for the taxpayer.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 4, 2009)

volkris said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> 
> > Idiots... no-bid jobs always end badly for the taxpayer.
> ...


Whatever-- your logic has never made logical sense.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 4, 2009)

Steve4031 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
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> > sechs said:
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Nothing other then my general assumption whenever no-bid job and foreign concern appear in the same deal. Especially with Asian companies- which I know Talgo is not. Bribing is the way certain cultures do these things. If you want proof, you'll have to look elsewhere for I have none.

ALC, for once, and it pains me a lot to say this, Vokris does have a point- there are times when bidding is not worth what it costs.

However... Talgo is not the only company who builds tilting trainsets. The UAC TurboTrain was a pendular design. Bombardier's Acela and LRC sets tilt. I'm pretty sure the Pendalinos are Italian (Fiat comes to mind) and not Talgo. Since there are other possible designs, I question the logic. So while Volkris does make a valid point, I disagree that it applies to this instance.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 4, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
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This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"


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## frj1983 (Aug 4, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Steve4031 said:
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Plenty of Builders???

here's what the article says:

When the Transportation Department asked seven major train manufacturers - four from Europe and three from Asia - for information on their ability to provide the trains, only Talgo submitted a formal detailed response, said Robert Jambois, the department's general counsel. Nippon Sharyo sent a letter and France's Alstom Transport sent an e-mail, neither of which were available Friday, Jambois said.

Note: only Talgo submitted a formal detailed response! Nippon Sharyo and Alstom basically flipped it off. No-one else responded...where do you get plenty of builders from this?? What a previous poster mentioned seems to come in play here:a Company wanting to build a small order, is what seems to have motivated Talgo (that plus the propaganda). The other companies were obviously too busy building train sets for other States/Railroads and couldn't be bothered. :huh:


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## Neil_M (Aug 4, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"


Any facts behind that or is it just to do with you not liking Talgos?! :lol:


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## jis (Aug 4, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"


Pardon, but it seems your prejudices are showing  At least I don't see any indication at all that there is anything corrupt going on in this case. Since you level a rather serious charge, would you care to elaborate what your evidence is (other than just that it is Talgo of course :lol: )


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## BigBlueBuddha (Aug 4, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Steve4031 said:
> ...


Actually, Wisconsin Governor Doyle, not some "yuppie state Senator", rode a Talgo train when he visited Spain not too long ago and he came back singing their praise.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 4, 2009)

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
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Does it matter where he rode them? He rode them and fell in love with them-- so the entire state is doomed to mediocre trains because one man had his fancy tickled.

And there's a difference between the state asking for submissions and putting the project up for bids-- there ARE plenty of train builders out there, but the state didn't put out for bids. If they had designed the projects and opened it up for bids I'm sure more than just Talgo would have responded.

Either way the Talgos (and other tilting trains) will be totally 100% useless on that track anyway, there needs to be money budgeted in for the smoothing of curves and track improvements.


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## VT Hokie (Aug 4, 2009)

frj1983 said:


> Plenty of Builders???
> here's what the article says:
> 
> When the Transportation Department asked seven major train manufacturers - four from Europe and three from Asia - for information on their ability to provide the trains, only Talgo submitted a formal detailed response, said Robert Jambois, the department's general counsel. Nippon Sharyo sent a letter and France's Alstom Transport sent an e-mail, neither of which were available Friday, Jambois said.
> ...


Did they even bother to contact Amtrak about the three Super Steel RTL III Turboliners for sale? :lol:


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 4, 2009)

VT Hokie said:


> Did they even bother to contact Amtrak about the three Super Steel RTL III Turboliners for sale? :lol:


Heaven forbid, even people from Wisconsin aren't that dumb.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 4, 2009)

And the Turboliner can is opened again! Let the worms squirm out!!


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## Kramerica (Aug 4, 2009)

Steve4031 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.
> ...


If you haven't noticed anything recently, then you haven't been paying attention to Governor Doyle. His whole administration is corrupt.

Specific to this transaction, a red flag goes up because Doyle will not release the names of the people who went with him on his Talgo-paid-for trip to Spain. The probable reason he doesn't want to disclose that information is because then you could figure out the relationships between those people and people who gave large sums of money to Doyle's campaign. Jim Doyle (like most politicians) doesn't give no-bid contracts to companies out of the goodness of his heart. There's something in it for him.

But I'm happy that we're moving forward with intercity rail in Wisconsin. Hopefully we'll need to buy those two extra sets for the MKE-MAD run.

I also emailed the JS reporters today to have them write something about the configuration and amenities the Talgo trains will have. I'd like to know about dining/lounge cars, seat pitch, and whether bicycles will be allowed to be brought on board, unlike the current Hiawatha. I'd also like to know why the train will be 14 cars, which is double the length of the current train, but only increases the capacity by 20%.


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## AlanB (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Does it matter where he rode them? He rode them and fell in love with them-- so the entire state is doomed to mediocre trains because one man had his fancy tickled.


Mediocre in your opinion only. Most other's consider the Talgos to be a fine ride and one of the better services provided by Amtrak.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> And there's a difference between the state asking for submissions and putting the project up for bids-- there ARE plenty of train builders out there, but the state didn't put out for bids. If they had designed the projects and opened it up for bids I'm sure more than just Talgo would have responded.


A Request For Interest/Information (RFI) is often the first step taken before a Request For Proposal (RFP) is asked for. It's unclear at the moment if they actually did a formal RFI or just asked companies if they were interested. And I won't deny that it would be best if the two letters that they did get back were quickly made public.

However, it sounds like no one other than Talgo seemed interested. Therefore there was no point in doing an RFP, which is essentially bidding out the project.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Either way the Talgos (and other tilting trains) will be totally 100% useless on that track anyway, there needs to be money budgeted in for the smoothing of curves and track improvements.


I'm sorry but that's totally wrong. The entire point of the Talgo or any tilting train is that it can go around a curve faster than a non-tilting train. It's for that very reason that the Talgo's have a higher speed limit in Washington and Oregon than do Amtrak trains running with Superliner or Amfleet cars, as well as Sounder.

So regardless of whether track improvements are made or not, the running times between CHI and MKE will go down. Yes, they'd go down even more if track improvements are made, but in the meantime this will still cut overall running times.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 5, 2009)

AlanB said:


> I'm sorry but that's totally wrong. The entire point of the Talgo or any tilting train is that it can go around a curve faster than a non-tilting train. It's for that very reason that the Talgo's have a higher speed limit in Washington and Oregon than do Amtrak trains running with Superliner or Amfleet cars, as well as Sounder.
> So regardless of whether track improvements are made or not, the running times between CHI and MKE will go down. Yes, they'd go down even more if track improvements are made, but in the meantime this will still cut overall running times.


The Talgo has never proven itself much of an asset on the rails-- its speeds between SEA and PDX are only about 15% faster due to their increase and speed-- let's compare that to ridership. Their 14 car train only seats 20% more pax than the 6-7 car Hiawatha. Now it stands to reason that track improvements would decrease runtimes (Talgo or not). Whereas you can easily rotate Amfleets, Superliners, and Horizon cars through the CHI system I'd like to see what happens when one of those two trainsets flubs itself up-- Amtrak should be working towards standardizing their fleet rather than let states do willy nilly what they want and having this mismatched fleet with different running crews and repair shops and have to... Oh I give up.

Enjoy your Starbucks on wheels. I swear on my AC applications that this will be my last critiquing the Talgos. I guess I am working a loosing battle with a fad.


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## AlanB (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The Talgo has never proven itself much of an asset on the rails-- its speeds between SEA and PDX are only about 15% faster due to their increase and speed-- let's compare that to ridership.


Actually it's more like 20% faster than conventional equipment between SEA and PDX, or 30 minutes saved by having the Talgo equipment. To most people who aren't railfans, that is significant. To business people, those 30 minutes are critical.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Their 14 car train only seats 20% more pax than the 6-7 car Hiawatha.


Here I don't totally disagree, although I'm sure that part of the difference is because they plan to run a cafe car in the consist, most likely business class (probably 2 cars like the current Talgos), and have much greater seat pitch even in coach when compared to the Horizons that currently ply the Hiawatha route. It's also possible that they are including a dining car for eventual extension of the run past Milwaukee and maybe a baggage car.

Still that doesn't seem to account for such a small improvement over the current trains. And that's assuming that they are going to have 2 dead cars in the form of the dining car and a bag. Hopefully Kramerica will get some further answers via his enquiries.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Now it stands to reason that track improvements would decrease runtimes (Talgo or not).


No argument here, except to say that even with improvements you can't get a totally straight track and therefore the tilting Talgo will still run faster.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Whereas you can easily rotate Amfleets, Superliners, and Horizon cars through the CHI system I'd like to see what happens when one of those two trainsets flubs itself up--


If a Superliner can pinch hit for an Amfleet, then there is no reason that it can't pinch hit for a Talgo. In fact, it already has. :lol: As have Amfleets and Horizons.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Amtrak should be working towards standardizing their fleet rather than let states do willy nilly what they want and having this mismatched fleet with different running crews and repair shops and have to...


If Amtrak were buying this equipment you might have a good argument, although for all we know Amtrak may well pick Talgo to build the next generation of equipment, in which case what Wisconsin is buying would be standard. However, Amtrak isn't buying the equipment and is only being paid to run it and maintain it. They have no say in this matter, except to perhaps raise the rates that they charge Wisconsin to maintain the equipment. And that assumes that Wisconsin doesn't contract Talgo to do the maintenance.

And no need for different running crews, the sets don't include engines so most likely Amtrak will put P42's on the head end.


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## Neil_M (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The Talgo has never proven itself much of an asset on the rails-- its speeds between SEA and PDX are only about 15% faster due to their increase and speed-- let's compare that to ridership. Their 14 car train only seats 20% more pax than the 6-7 car Hiawatha. Now it stands to reason that track improvements would decrease runtimes (Talgo or not). Whereas you can easily rotate Amfleets, Superliners, and Horizon cars through the CHI system I'd like to see what happens when one of those two trainsets flubs itself up-- Amtrak should be working towards standardizing their fleet rather than let states do willy nilly what they want and having this mismatched fleet with different running crews and repair shops and have to... Oh I give up.
> Enjoy your Starbucks on wheels. I swear on my AC applications that this will be my last critiquing the Talgos. I guess I am working a loosing battle with a fad.


Ever thought you might just be wrong? Or do 20 year olds not even consider stuff like that?! :lol:


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## BigBlueBuddha (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Kwitchyerbelliakin said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Of course not, don't be obtuse. <_< You miss the point entirely. I was simply supplying a fact to counter your specious claim about "yuppie" Senators on vacation in Washington, Starbucks, and getting elected again. In fact, with the many opponents of increasing trains in Wisconsin, your fictional Senator would just as likely _not _win another term!

As a Wisconsin resident, I for one applaud _any_ increase in train travel options in my area, regardless of the equipment. Well, I might stop short of riding in a hopper! :lol: I especially am looking forward to the eventual Milwaukee-Green Bay runs. GO PACK!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 5, 2009)

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> Of course not, don't be obtuse. <_< You miss the point entirely. I was simply supplying a fact to counter your specious claim about "yuppie" Senators on vacation in Washington, Starbucks, and getting elected again. In fact, with the many opponents of increasing trains in Wisconsin, your fictional Senator would just as likely _not _win another term!
> As a Wisconsin resident, I for one applaud _any_ increase in train travel options in my area, regardless of the equipment. Well, I might stop short of riding in a hopper! :lol: I especially am looking forward to the eventual Milwaukee-Green Bay runs. GO PACK!


Well there's another Wisconsin resident who in this thread, explains he is corrupt and pretty much agrees with me on matters of money-- given that we're talking about a guy runnign for a public office, I don't put it past him.

And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.


----------



## Neil_M (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.


Not always, but 20 year olds always think they know everything. I know I did, but know I know I do know everything.....

Under 25s shouldn't be allowed an opinion till they a pass a test anyway.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 5, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.
> ...


You do realize how asinine you sound, right?


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## Ispolkom (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Kwitchyerbelliakin said:
> 
> 
> > Of course not, don't be obtuse. <_< You miss the point entirely. I was simply supplying a fact to counter your specious claim about "yuppie" Senators on vacation in Washington, Starbucks, and getting elected again. In fact, with the many opponents of increasing trains in Wisconsin, your fictional Senator would just as likely _not _win another term!
> ...


The crack about your age is ad hominem, but I sure don't see your presenting any evidence about either Doyle's corruption in general, or in this agreement in particular. Not that wild, supported statements are made only by young people, of course.

The remarkable case of Georgia Thompson makes me especially suspicious of corruption charges in Wisconsin, a generally well-run state under both Republican and Democratic administrations.


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## Neil_M (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Maybe, but you getting all excited over 'Starbucks on rails' and other such trivia don't exactly lend themselves to people assuming you have any factual basis to your argument.

It's true about Americans not getting irony by the way....... :lol:


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Neil_M said:
> ...


Right-O Neil!Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but Some Americans get irony and even dont resort to name calling

and sloganeering like certain right wing kooks and Fixed-er_Fox News!I personally believe this attitude is from someone who

never grew up and if they dont get their way,no matter how plainly ridiculous,will take their ball and go home or cry!


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## wayman (Aug 5, 2009)

AlanB said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Does it matter where he rode them? He rode them and fell in love with them-- so the entire state is doomed to mediocre trains because one man had his fancy tickled.
> ...


Full agreement here: I love the Amfleet as much as GML, but I also found my Cascade rides last year to be thoroughly enjoyable. Comfortable, smooth, efficient, bright, spacious, good food service. As a rider, I saw nothing to dislike about them. ALC, can you explain why you feel the Talgos offer such an inferior "Starbucks on wheels" experience to riders? Other riders I talked to in Portland and Seattle seemed quite happy with them, and other posters here seem to have had favorable experiences as riders too. I know Cascadia prefers the Superliners, but I don't recall her heavily disparaging the Talgos.

Now, maintenance and cost and other issues, those are completely separate and have nothing to do with whether Talgos are "Starbucks on wheels" or not. And I'm far from an expert on those. But AlanB and others have addressed most of those issues too, in ways that make this seem like the Talgos are a decent move. Maybe a move that was politically motivated, and maybe even a move that was politically shady or worse. But not a move that will be detrimental for riders or for Wisconsin taxpayers or for Amtrak.

Also, I wish we could stay away from the ad hominem attacks which occasionally show up here, especially related to age. There are lots of constructive and productive arguments that can be made--let's hear those instead!


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## Steve4031 (Aug 5, 2009)

The Talgo's tend to ride rough on rough track. There is an especially rough section on the Cascades route as the train runs along the beach. This is jointed rail with slow operating speeds. There are places where the Talgo runs on rebuilt tracks, and it rides very well there.

IMHO, there will need to be some serious track work between Chicago and Milwaukee for these trains to ride smoothly. The ride is ok on Horizons and Superliners, but the Talgos, I suspect, might ride rough going over switches and grade crossings.

I like the Talgos, and I hope they are successful. And that they are expanded to other routes in the Midwest.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 5, 2009)

I have made my arguments against the Talgos in the dozens of other threads this board has had about them-- I am not going to repeat them. I did swear.


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## transit54 (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I have made my arguments against the Talgos in the dozens of other threads this board has had about them-- I am not going to repeat them. I did swear.


Perhaps you can link us to a few of them, if you aren't willing to repeat them?


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## MattW (Aug 5, 2009)

Anyone want to guess if the Talgos for Wisconsin will have the fins the Cascades have? Since the P-42 is the shortest Passenger Locomotive will the fins be added on?


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## transit54 (Aug 5, 2009)

MattW said:


> Anyone want to guess if the Talgos for Wisconsin will have the fins the Cascades have? Since the P-42 is the shortest Passenger Locomotive will the fins be added on?


I hope not...I think the fins look awful with the P42s. Also, I'd be interested in the paint scheme used on the units. I think it would be great to have them painted to match the P42s if that's what they're going to be pulled by.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 5, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > I have made my arguments against the Talgos in the dozens of other threads this board has had about them-- I am not going to repeat them. I did swear.
> ...


Try this thread and this one. You may also be interested in Cascadia's well written post here and my mild critique of safety issues.

This should be enough to give you all a _start_


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## Neil_M (Aug 5, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> This should be enough to give you all a _start_


Better send those off to Wisconsin then. That will stop them in their tracks! :lol:


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## gaspeamtrak (Aug 5, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.
> ...



So true...most of the time


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## Steve4031 (Aug 5, 2009)

I would suggest orange and blue. That way those cheese heads will be reminded about who there daddy is every time they get on talgo to come to Chicago. The bears and jay cutler will be beating the pack for the next decade. Lol


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## Rob_C (Aug 6, 2009)

Here's some general design questions about the Talgos...

Does Spain not have any Bi-level cars? Height restrictions or otherwise?

Or would a bi-level Talgo nullify the tilt ability? They certainly seem to be low enough to support an upper deck, no?

Also why the short car length? Does that have something to do with the tilt, or is that the only way to make the intermodal design work? (I think they are intermodal, but please correct me if not).


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 6, 2009)

Steve4031 said:


> I would suggest orange and blue. That way those cheese heads will be reminded about who there daddy is every time they get on talgo to come to Chicago. The bears and jay cutler will be beating the pack for the next decade. Lol


Just like the Cubs eh?Everyone knows Silver and Blue rules, Go Cowboys!!!!!


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## Steve4031 (Aug 6, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest orange and blue. That way those cheese heads will be reminded about who there daddy is every time they get on talgo to come to Chicago. The bears and jay cutler will be beating the pack for the next decade. Lol
> ...


Just got one thing to say about the Cowboys. 44-0. LOL


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## transit54 (Aug 6, 2009)

gaspeamtrak said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


If an argument is invalid or ill informed, then why not attack it from that angle, why resort to age? I'm a tad offended at this whole line of reasoning...I don't agree with ALC's conclusions on the Talgos (actually, I'm staying out of this whole debate because I've never ridden on them, so I don't think I could contribute much of anything meaningful), but I think its just absurd (and mildly offensive) to make sweeping generalizations about the validity of one's opinions based on their age. Are there plenty of people in their early 20s who wrongly believe they know everything? Sure, there are. There's also a lot of people in their late 40s who also wrongly believe they know everything. I spent two years working with the traveling public as an airline employee when I was 20 and 21 and let me tell you, the ignorance and stupidity of people who averaged twice my age was astounding on a daily basis. There are ill-informed, unreasonable, backwards and irrational people at every age bracket. Sure, younger people in their teens and early twenties are stereotypically headstrong, but I would hope that we could put aside our prejudices and stereotypes and just have open, frank discussions as fellow board members, without having to attack opinions based on age, location, gender or anything else not relevant. And for the record, no, I don't know everything. I'm astounded at how much more I learn every year, and I hope to continue that to the day that I die. But I think we all have knowledge in different areas - I may be 22, but I perhaps have experiences that others on this board may not have, regardless of their age. And almost everyone on this board also has experiences that I haven't had, and that's why I'm here.

So, with that said, can we get back to discussing _Amtrak_?


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 6, 2009)

AlanB said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Their 14 car train only seats 20% more pax than the 6-7 car Hiawatha.
> ...


You must be joking. Please tell me you're joking. Why do you miss the bloody obvious. 14 Talgo cars do not equal in length or interior volume or anything else, 14 standard-size 85' American coach cars of any type. They're much shorter and articulated. Of course 14 cars don't come close to doubling the capacity, even if there are no bloody service cars at all. In fact, if I remember correctly, which I am not at all sure if I do, the Talgo cars are only like 50 feet long. 7 85 feet cars are 595 feet in length, whilst 14 50 feet cars = 700 feet. Or about 1.23 standard cars more in length. Which would be 17.5% increase in total length. A 20% increase in capacity is actually impressive, especially if they add features. I know my math is completely off the cuff since I don't actually know the exact length of the cars, but my point stands: T = 14X, H = 7 Y, and X < Y



Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > And you know I fail to see how my age has anything to do with it... it must be something that happens when you go over the hill, Neil, you just assume every problem is reliant upon a person's age.
> ...


Sometimes, you are seriously about the most offensive person on this board, dude. Given my own position in that department, you really stepped over the line for me to mention it! I might be offensive, but I generally don't attack other forum members. ALC ain't my favourite person, exactly, but in some areas he's more grown up than you.

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, whatever that opinion is, and you have to respect their right to have it- be the person holding it a 3 year old child or Stephen Hawkings. You are entitled to value the validity of that opinion as you will, but denying its right to exist is about as childish as someone can get.

And I say this, my opinion of possible corruption notwithstanding, disagreeing thoroughly with most of what ALC is saying.



Rob_C said:


> Here's some general design questions about the Talgos...
> Does Spain not have any Bi-level cars? Height restrictions or otherwise?
> 
> Or would a bi-level Talgo nullify the tilt ability? They certainly seem to be low enough to support an upper deck, no?
> ...


Can't answer the first or second questions, for I don't know.

However, the reason for the short car length is that the trains are articulated - one wheel pair shared by both cars at each coupling, and thus you need more cars per train to properly distribute weight. I'd imagine, although I don't know, that it also improves the train's ability to clear sharp turns.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 6, 2009)

If you want to increase capacity by 20% or more-- all you need to do is add another Amfleet/Horizon. You want to increase capacity by 50%, add three cars.


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## p&sr (Aug 7, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> I spent two years working with the traveling public as an airline employee when I was 20 and 21 and let me tell you, the ignorance and stupidity of people who averaged twice my age was astounding on a daily basis. There are ill-informed, unreasonable, backwards and irrational people at every age bracket.


Yes indeed. A very interesting observation.


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## battalion51 (Aug 7, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> If you want to increase capacity by 20% or more-- all you need to do is add another Amfleet/Horizon. You want to increase capacity by 50%, add three cars.


I think something all parties involved are missing right now is that Wisconsin and Illinois are currently having to pay to lease the Horizons/Amfleets from Amtrak. It's very clear that Hiawatha service is not going away anytime soon. So you come to the principles we all deal with when it comes to our living arrangements rent vs. buy. If you plan on being there for 30 years, you buy. If you plan on being there for under 5 you rent. Same principle y'all.


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## jis (Aug 7, 2009)

Rob_C said:


> Here's some general design questions about the Talgos...
> Does Spain not have any Bi-level cars? Height restrictions or otherwise?
> 
> Or would a bi-level Talgo nullify the tilt ability? They certainly seem to be low enough to support an upper deck, no?
> ...


You can see example of bi-level Talgos as operated by VR - the Finnish Railways - on their Russian Broad Gauge system in

.


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## Neil_M (Aug 7, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Sometimes, you are seriously about the most offensive person on this board, dude. Given my own position in that department, you really stepped over the line for me to mention it! I might be offensive, but I generally don't attack other forum members. ALC ain't my favourite person, exactly, but in some areas he's more grown up than you.


Feel free to take as much offence as you want as none was intended, it was meant to be a flippant remark, but go ahead , if you feel better by being offended then don't mind me.

Obviously a sense of humour is not given to the youth of the US either.


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## Kramerica (Aug 7, 2009)

OK... back on the ranch...

I sent this set of questions to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's reporter on transporation:



> I’ve been reading all the articles about the new Talgo train sets the state plans to buy. I’d like to see an article about the configuration and amenities of the new train sets. Currently the 7-car Hiawatha (2 engines and 5 coaches) carries 350 passengers. But the new trains will be 14 cars and carry 420 passengers. What is all the extra space going to be used for?
> - Will there be a baggage car?
> 
> - Will there be a café car? If so, what kind of seating and food service will it have?
> ...


He (Larry Sandler) replied with this:



> Thank you for all these excellent questions. I hope to address some of them in a future article, perhaps as soon as tomorrow.
> As for the questions that wouldn’t be addressed, I can tell you that the new cars will be shorter, so the total length of the train won’t increase much. It is not yet clear whether the trains would decrease the time on the Chicago-Milwaukee run prior to the eventual upgrade to 110 mph service, but Talgo says these trains could handle any speed up to 220 mph. And the DOT says that if you ask the conductor, he can turn around the current seats on the Hiawatha for you, but they’re not sure whether the new ones will have that capability.


So, hopefully there'll be some more information in the newspaper soon. I do have a question about flipping the seats on the Horizons, though. I've only taken it once, so I'm not too familiar with it. Can the conductor flip the seats?

The amenity I really hope the Talgo has is the ability to carry on a bicycle. Chicago has some great bike trails, and my friends and I would love to take our bikes on the train instead of taking our cars.

I did find this page about the Cascades Talgo on trainweb interesting. It shows a (gasp!) 14-car consist for the Talgo. That would make me think that Wisconsin's trains may be similar or idential in configuration. Baggage, coach, coach, coach, coach, coach, coach, coach, bistro, diner, business, business, generator. That would be pretty nice.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 7, 2009)

The Talgos can hit 220mph? Is he on meth?!?


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## battalion51 (Aug 7, 2009)

Well if you call this meth, then yes.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 7, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> Well if you call this meth, then yes.


Wisconsin is not buying that series... clearly he has no idea what he's buying.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 7, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes, you are seriously about the most offensive person on this board, dude. Given my own position in that department, you really stepped over the line for me to mention it! I might be offensive, but I generally don't attack other forum members. ALC ain't my favourite person, exactly, but in some areas he's more grown up than you.
> ...


I have an extensive sense of humor. It just doesn't work very well divining it from your text, and I really don't particularly understand British humor being an Israeli who has spent most of his life in the United States and has only been to Britain a few times.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The Talgos can hit 220mph? Is he on meth?!?


The wheels sets can handles speeds like that, and I don't doubt it to be true. They ain't gonna reach it being hauled by a Genesis or F59PHi. But hook them to a powerful enough locomotive, and I'm sure they could handle moving at that speed.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 8, 2009)

Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 8, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--


You can find it in Europe. Please, ALC. The trainset's virtues on their native track and their suitability for Wisconsin are different issues.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 8, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--
> ...


I'm not stupid. It just proves my point... European trains are designed for European track. If and until US track can be held to the same standard European trains are nothing but flashy.


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## Neil_M (Aug 8, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


No need to improve things then? If even Spain can manage to run trains at some sort of high speed, bit of a poor show if keeping some stone, concrete or wooden strips and 2 long bits of steel in some sort of reasonable order is too much effort for a supposedly advanced nation.....


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 8, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
> ...


Yeah-- that's _exactly_ what I said. Well done.

Bravo.

You nailed it.

Now for the rest of the reasonable public-- WI is only purchasing the carsets and not the motive power?


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## Neil_M (Aug 8, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Wow. Sarcasm. In one so young..... :lol:

Anyway, those Talgos are only "flashy" because you are used to such poor quality trains!

But you gotta start somewhere!


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## Kramerica (Aug 8, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--


So you're saying that instead we should buy a train set that can only go as fast as the current track allows? So then what when you upgrade the track? Buy new trains?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 8, 2009)

Kramerica said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, good luck finding the track rated for that speed too--
> ...


No.

But buying a train rated for 220mph for the sake of giving a politician a stump speech is a waste of taxpayer money. Ask anybody what it would take to upgrade the rails in WI to get 150mph and the answer is "a lot".


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## Kramerica (Aug 8, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Kramerica said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


You won't find much of a bigger opponent of Governor Doyle than me. (the only things I agree with him on are trains and cigarettes) But I have yet to see him or any other politician using the 220 mph top speed as some sort of selling point. None of the articles have mentioned the 220 mph top speed. That number came out from a *private* email from the newpaper reporter to me. ("Talgo says these trains could handle any speed up to 220 mph") Maybe in the future they will, but at this point there is no reason to suspect that. Not the least of which is that upgrading past 110 mph isn't even in the dreams of realistic rail proponents in Wisconsin, because of the cost.

The bottom line on the 220 mph top speed is that is just what the Talgo comes in standard. That's all.

It is too bad you're bringing up lame and unfounded crap like the top speed issue. That undermines your other good points (the no-bid was bad because of the probable corruption/money-changing-hands) that should be more of a public outcry.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 8, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I'm not stupid. It just proves my point... European trains are designed for European track. If and until US track can be held to the same standard European trains are nothing but flashy.


I can tell you aren't stupid, but I must say that sometimes you can give people the distinct impression that you are- although I'd rate it as more likely just being stubborn and enthusiastic.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Aug 9, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not stupid. It just proves my point... European trains are designed for European track. If and until US track can be held to the same standard European trains are nothing but flashy.
> ...


Well why bother buying trains that can go up to 220mph if you don't even have the motive power (much less the damn track) to achieve 220? I don't care what the hell people say as far as this looking "stupid" because it just proves that people are enamored with things they don't understand. Just wait until people start touting these trains as the future of American HSR. If and when America builds track to reach it we all know that the these sets will be long scrapped.


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## Kramerica (Aug 9, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Well why bother buying trains that can go up to 220mph if you don't even have the motive power (much less the damn track) to achieve 220? I don't care what the hell people say as far as this looking "stupid" because it just proves that people are enamored with things they don't understand. Just wait until people start touting these trains as the future of American HSR. If and when America builds track to reach it we all know that the these sets will be long scrapped.


The fact the the trains can go 220 mph (vs 110 or 125 or 150) had little, if anything, to do with the purchase. The Talgos were purchased because of the tilting design, the amenities, the 80 assembly jobs, and the likely "perks" Talgo gave to Doyle.

I don't know what the political environment is in the rest of the US, but here in Wisconsin, the general public is mostly just tolerating the 110 mph "high speed" trains. There would be no political advantage to talking about 220 mph trains. It is just so far from reality because of the costs.

I hope we do get to the point where people start touting 220 mph trains as the (near) future for American HSR. But it still won't have *anything* to do with why Wisconsin bought these Talgo trains.


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## Neil_M (Aug 9, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


I was only joking about your age first time round, now I am beginning to have second thoughts.

Train builders generally build to an improving standard, Talgos are now good for up to 220mph and I doubt they would build an economy version just for you that does 79mph on dismal track.

Just think of it another way, if you can keep your blinkers off for a minute or two.

Maybe, having trains that can run faster than 79mph might be an incentive to improve the track to take full advantage of the train? Or are you happy having a very poor railway system?


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## battalion51 (Aug 9, 2009)

Having a train that can haul cookies is always going to be a positive thing. The Superliners IIRC are good up to 100 MPH, but you can't find anyplace where they run on track that's good for 100 MPH, heck I don't think for any route they run on primarily you can find a place where they run at 90. So even though they are rarely, if ever stretched to their limit, having the capacity there isn't a bad thing. Having the ability to do something is not a bad thing, it allows you flexibility for the future.

As far as not buying the motors to match the set, it's pretty clear why they didn't do that. Under current conditions it's not necessary. Since they're shooting for 110 MPH operation, and that is within the capabilities of a P-42, it doesn't make too much sense to go out and buy these. You would have to buy at least three motors (two for the road, and one for maintenance rotation) plus cab cars to be independent from Amtrak. But with the many moving parts, maintenance, etc. that goes into an engine vs. cars it makes sense to keep using Amtrak's motor power.


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## jis (Aug 10, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> Having a train that can haul cookies is always going to be a positive thing. The Superliners IIRC are good up to 100 MPH, but you can't find anyplace where they run on track that's good for 100 MPH, heck I don't think for any route they run on primarily you can find a place where they run at 90. So even though they are rarely, if ever stretched to their limit, having the capacity there isn't a bad thing.


The Southwest Chief runs at 90mph over considerable distances in New Mexico and Arizona. Have seen so on my GPS just a month back.

Also they do so on the Los Angeles - San Diego corridor too.


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## MrFSS (Aug 10, 2009)

Yep - lot of 90MPH in the southwest. My GPS last year on the SWC.


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## Chris J. (Aug 10, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Kramerica said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


I don't think they are buying them because the are 220mph rated, but because they need trains and these are FRA approved and seemingly available. How do the costs of the Talgo sets compare to getting something else, if there is anything else available in the first place?


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## battalion51 (Aug 10, 2009)

jis said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > Having a train that can haul cookies is always going to be a positive thing. The Superliners IIRC are good up to 100 MPH, but you can't find anyplace where they run on track that's good for 100 MPH, heck I don't think for any route they run on primarily you can find a place where they run at 90. So even though they are rarely, if ever stretched to their limit, having the capacity there isn't a bad thing.
> ...


I could've sworn they took out the ATS on the SWC line, I stand corrected. As far as LAX-San Diego goes, that's primarily Surfliners on that route. You'll see an occasional Superliner pinch hitting, but it's not on a daily basis.


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## jis (Aug 10, 2009)

battalion51 said:


> I could've sworn they took out the ATS on the SWC line, I stand corrected. As far as LAX-San Diego goes, that's primarily Surfliners on that route. You'll see an occasional Superliner pinch hitting, but it's not on a daily basis.


The two or 3 days I was there last month during the OTOL SoCal Fest, each Surfliner train that I saw (except the one low level consist with the Superdome in it) had either a straight Superliner or a Superliner rebuilt for California in the consist.


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## Steve4031 (Aug 10, 2009)

IIRC the superliner was a coach/baggage car


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