# With The Ground Breaking Of CAHSR, Will Amtrak Run The Trains?



## seat38a (Jan 6, 2015)

Today the broke ground in Fresno for the start of the construction for the CAHSR. Has there been any news on who would run the trains? Amtrak as part of Amtrak California?


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## Paulus (Jan 6, 2015)

No word on who will run it, but it will most likely be put out to bid with the winner providing private investment in it for its expansion.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jan 7, 2015)

seat38a said:


> Today the broke ground in Fresno for the start of the construction for the CAHSR. Has there been any news on who would run the trains? Amtrak as part of Amtrak California?



If the state of California runs it it will most likely be part of Amtrak California. I mean, why not? Doesn't the state already run other Amtrak California trains?


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## Anderson (Jan 7, 2015)

Shawn Ryu said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > Today the broke ground in Fresno for the start of the construction for the CAHSR. Has there been any news on who would run the trains? Amtrak as part of Amtrak California?
> ...


As strange as it may sound, Amtrak California isn't Amtrak. Especially since the state will soon own almost all of its own equipment (note that Metrolink has been ordering a bunch of 125 MPH-enabled locomotives in spite of not having any capable tracks for that speed), it is quite possible that Amtrak California might become something different in the course of time.

More to the point, nothing says that CAHSR won't be set out as a separate entity: The equipment and most of the tracks (and a decent number of stations) won't be used by Amtrak California. Granted, having it under the same roof as Amtrak California would be desirable for several reasons (not least because if the operating surplus that has been talked about were to come to pass, the state would probably never have to pay for another passenger rail project out of general revenues), but there are reasons it can be managed separately.

I know that Virgin has talked about running the trains, though I don't recall if it was someone at Virgin America or someone over in the UK talking about hoping to bid for it.


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## cirdan (Jan 7, 2015)

Shawn Ryu said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > Today the broke ground in Fresno for the start of the construction for the CAHSR. Has there been any news on who would run the trains? Amtrak as part of Amtrak California?
> ...


My understanding is that the initial segment will be used by the San Joaquin services initially, using the existing equipment. So I guess Amtrak California will transfer some if not all of the relevant services to the new line and adjust the schedules accordingly but otherwise there won't be a big change.

Only once sufficient segments of the new line are complete and electrified will it make sense to start running dedicated new trains. At that pouint I guess different operating companies will be invited to make an offer. Besides Amtrak, airlines might be interested as might European, Chinese and Japanese railroads with experience in HSR operation, or indeed consortiums of these.


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## VentureForth (Jan 7, 2015)

The only benefit to Amtrak running it would be the interconnectivity to the national system. Really, that's ALL that Amtrak is good for - to connect the country.

I wouldn't say that Amtrak California isn't Amtrak. I suppose it's more like a quirky franchise. They pay for all their infrastructure and then pay a "royalty" to Amtrak for reservations and use of the name. It's a lot more complicated than that, obviously, but I'm sure Boardman has some, if little, influence on what happens in the state.


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## jis (Jan 7, 2015)

Even Amtrak California itself is not under the same roof. It is more like a campus with multiple buildings in it, in a manner of speaking. Different corridors run by it are governed by different local governing bodies. And yes, progressively Amtrak is losing more and more control of what happens in Amtrak California. Only the LD trains in California are now fully under the control of Amtrak. It is indeed quite possible for Amtrak to lose their operating franchise at some point in the future.

As far as HSR operations are concerned, they should select the best from an open bidding process.


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## BCL (Jan 7, 2015)

jis said:


> Even Amtrak California itself is not under the same roof. Different corridors run by it are governed by different local governing bodies. And yes, progressively Amtrak is losing more and more control of what happens in Amtrak California. Only the LD trains in California are now fully under the control of Amtrak. It is indeed quite possible for Amtrak to lose their operating franchise at some point in the future.
> 
> As far as HSR operations are concerned, they should select the best from an open bidding process.


The machinations are rather bizarre. Amtrak California owns their own equipment. The stations are mostly owned by local governments or agencies. The staffing is 100% Amtrak. I've talked to many workers, and they can bid for any Amtrak assignment once a current one expires. The Caltrain positions were the same when Amtrak had the contract.

While Amtrak California is Caltrans, there's a different authority for each line. I know the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority uses BART to manage the line.


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## Paulus (Jan 7, 2015)

BCL said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Even Amtrak California itself is not under the same roof. Different corridors run by it are governed by different local governing bodies. And yes, progressively Amtrak is losing more and more control of what happens in Amtrak California. Only the LD trains in California are now fully under the control of Amtrak. It is indeed quite possible for Amtrak to lose their operating franchise at some point in the future.
> ...


San Joaquins and Surfliner are both managed by Caltrans currently, but should be under local JPAs like the Capitol Corridor is by the end of the year (with, if I'm not mistaken, ACE and OCTA being the managing agencies for those JPAs). Some equipment, including most of the Surfliner, is leased from Amtrak. While the staffing is 100% Amtrak, that's because Amtrak holds the operating contracts: If someone else were to receive it, you'd no longer see that 100% Amtrak staffing.


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## seat38a (Jan 7, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> The only benefit to Amtrak running it would be the interconnectivity to the national system. Really, that's ALL that Amtrak is good for - to connect the country.
> 
> I wouldn't say that Amtrak California isn't Amtrak. I suppose it's more like a quirky franchise. They pay for all their infrastructure and then pay a "royalty" to Amtrak for reservations and use of the name. It's a lot more complicated than that, obviously, but I'm sure Boardman has some, if little, influence on what happens in the state.


Well their ticketing system and the AGR rewards will probably give it economy of scale.


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## BCL (Jan 7, 2015)

Paulus said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


My CC ride this morning was powered by a Genesis. I was under the impression that Amtrak loans them out as needed. Also, Amtrak provides the maintenance facilities.


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## Blackwolf (Jan 7, 2015)

BCL said:


> Also, Amtrak provides the maintenance facilities.


That brings up a good question to mull around; maintenance facilities.

In LA, Amtrak's facilities are well-used by three Long Distance trains all terminating there. The Pacific Surfliners make up for most of the traffic in the shops I'm sure, but if Amtrak were no longer in the picture I think there would still be enough work for the strictly Amtrak routes to justify keeping the shops as they are.

Oakland, however, is a different story. If a separation of Amtrak and the Capitol Corridor/San Joaquin routes took place, the Amtrak Oakland yard would only have a singe train to maintenance: the California Zephyr. That would be a tremendous amount of facility for one train and would quickly be unsustainable.

In such a situation I wonder if there would be a provision where the State of California took ownership of the Oakland yard and either made Amtrak pay for the use of that facility of that one train or force Amtrak to find another alternative (such as maybe extend the CZ to San Jose and service/turn the train there on a platform?)


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## Paulus (Jan 8, 2015)

The Oakland Maintenance Facility is apparently already owned by the state of California (who has occasionally sent Amtrak nastygrams over the work done there). The LA & Goleta yards would likely be rented out to whoever was the new operator.


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## Anderson (Jan 8, 2015)

seat38a said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > The only benefit to Amtrak running it would be the interconnectivity to the national system. Really, that's ALL that Amtrak is good for - to connect the country.
> ...


Yes, but operating the trains and operating some sort of interline ticketing are not the same thing. It is quite conceivable that CAHSR could be operated by someone else but end up in a Thruway-style codeshare with Amtrak. In fact, I suspect that California would probably, in the end, find a way to force Amtrak to codeshare (and likely integrate with AGR) via the contracts on the Surfliners, San Joaquins, and Capitol Corridor (as well as the Coast Daylight and anything else). The "stick" would be the fact that the Capitol Corridor is already under a state contract with UP, and I believe the Surfliners (and possibly the San Joaquins) could probably be transferred to another operator without too much heartache...so if Amtrak refused to work with a through-ticketing operation, California could more or less throw Amtrak out of the state save for the LD trains (especially since a system of CAHSR, the Surfliners, the San Joaquins, the Capitol Corridor, and the Coast Daylight is a pretty comprehensive rail system in and of itself...if any of the other services that have been mooted (Palm Springs, Reading, etc.) come to pass they also integrate with this network well).

Not that this would be desirable, but California certainly has room to operate a major internal rail system that would have an economy of scale all its own (the three existing routes have 5.3m riders; a Coast Daylight should be able to push that to 5.5m at a minimum, and CAHSR should add some on top of that...honestly, an integrated CA system has room to run somewhere in the range of 10-30m riders, depending on a mix of diversions from existing trains to CAHSR, actual HSR ridership, and whether Las Vegas or any other projects get added on). The other argument against using Amtrak is that aside from the four "system trains" (three daily, one 3x weekly) there's nothing else Amtrak runs within about a thousand miles save the Cascades...and with that I wouldn't be shocked if WA, OR, and CA got together in the long run and formed their own regional group that might or might not contract with Amtrak.


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