# Can't buy two seats for one person?



## notAnn

I am very obese and have been buying two economy seats on airlines since the 1990's and have never had a problem. I've done Amtrak long-hauls in roomettes and (later) the handicapped rooms with very few problems. However, when I moved back to California, I wanted to start traveling between SJC and FUL on the Coast Starlight and Surfliners. USA-RAIL happily sold me two seats on the Coast Starlight in the same manner that the airlines do -- one for my name, and one for my last name and EXTRASEAT. (I don't need two seats on the Surfliner.) The trip south was fine. But when I checked in at Fullerton to come back, I was treated to the immense rudeness of the ticket clerk, who nearly refused to let me get on any train at all. She said it was regulation that one person cannot buy two seats. She went off and verified it and then told me she had filed an official complaint against whoever had sold me the second ticket. She eventually allowed me to board the Surfliner, acting as if she was doing me a huge favor. No one else had a problem with me having two seats.

Since then, I have tried to find out what the reg is and why it exists. One guy at USA-RAIL was able to find the policy and tell me that it says that if the obesity is caused by a medical condition, then a passenger can buy a second seat (at full fare, of course). But obesity by itself is not a reason to allow the second seat. I find this ludicrous. As long as Amtrak is getting paid for the seat, they shouldn't care who is in it, or even IF anyone is in it. According to their website, if I were bringing a cello or a set of golf clubs, I could get a second seat then. So why not just for me?

Can anyone point me toward the actual regulation? I'm a bit nervous about taking the CS now, especially since I have no idea when someone will arbitrarily decide to enforce the reg. Most people say I should be fine and just go ahead and buy the second seat anyway, but I'm a bit terrified of running into that demon (or one of her siblings) at Fullerton. Most Amtrak people are wonderful and she was a particularly spectacular exception.

Thanks for any help!


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## SarahZ

I am so sorry you went through that. I purchased two airline seats for myself when traveling to Seattle last year, and two separate gate agents hassled me about it in front of a line of people. I had purchased two seats to avoid embarrassment and ended up embarrassed anyway, even though I did the right thing. You can bet I wrote to the airline about it, considering it's the airline's policy and all agents should be trained in recognizing "extra seat" on someone's ticket.

That said, there is a Blue Book policy about extra seats that people have linked to before. (Paging Ryan to the thread!)

I'm not sure how/why they need to prove that obesity is related to a medical condition rather than simply allowing an obese person to purchase two seats and guarantee those seats will be together. You would think they would be happy to accommodate someone and prevent a possible issue when the obese passenger cannot find a seat because they do not fit in a single seat. Also, how does one prove that obesity is related to a medical condition?

I wonder if they think passengers who are not obese will buy an extra seat simply so they don't have to sit next to anyone. I'm not sure why that would be a concern, though, as Amtrak is still making money off the seats. I've been curious about this for years.


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## Hal

notAnn said:


> Can anyone point me toward the actual regulation? I'm a bit nervous about taking the CS now, especially since I have no idea when someone will arbitrarily decide to enforce the reg. Most people say I should be fine and just go ahead and buy the second seat anyway, but I'm a bit terrified of running into that demon (or one of her siblings) at Fullerton. Most Amtrak people are wonderful and she was a particularly spectacular exception.
> 
> Thanks for any help!


You can buy two seats if the reason is because of size. You can't buy two seats if the reason is you don't want anyone sitting next to you. You might write a letter to Amtrak about the person at Fullerton.

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## PVD

Most Amtrak services are subsidized, ticket prices don't cover the cost of providing the seat in most cases. and the public should not be forced to subsidize someone's desire to have an empty seat next to them. We should be absolutely sensitive to someone with a medical condition that makes it beneficial or necessary for them to use 2 seats.


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## SarahZ

PVD said:


> *Most Amtrak services are subsidized, ticket prices don't cover the cost of providing the seat in most cases. and the public should not be forced to subsidize someone's desire to have an empty seat next to them.* We should be absolutely sensitive to someone with a medical condition that makes it beneficial or necessary for them to use 2 seats.


While that part makes sense, I still want to know how Amtrak determines if obesity is caused by a medical condition.


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## Hal

SarahZ said:


> That said, there is a Blue Book policy about extra seats that people have linked to before. (Paging Ryan to the thread!)
> 
> I'm not sure how/why they need to prove that obesity is related to a medical condition rather than simply allowing an obese person to purchase two seats and guarantee those seats will be together. You would think they would be happy to accommodate someone and prevent a possible issue when the obese passenger cannot find a seat because they do not fit in a single seat. Also, how does one prove that obesity is related to a medical condition?
> 
> I wonder if they think passengers who are not obese will buy an extra seat simply so they don't have to sit next to anyone. I'm not sure why that would be a concern, though, as Amtrak is still making money off the seats. I've been curious about this for years.


There is a rule that you can't buy two seats because you don't want someone sitting next to you. That is because if the train it is hard to explain to standing passengers why they can't sit in the empty seat.

You can buy two seats because of size. They don't say obese because someone could be large and not obese. So that ticket agent needs some training.

As far as the Blue Book some of linked to. it is in there, written as I stated however the Blue Book is Service Standards for onboard personnel. OBS, Conductors and Assistant Conductors. The ticket agents and station personnel have their own book in some form. I certainly would expect it would have to read the same as the Blue Book but I have not seen it. I mention that because if someone told a ticket agent what is says in the Blue Book or showed them a page from it they might give you a blank stare because they don't get that Blue Book.

The person in Fullerton sounded like they were out of bounds so it would be reasonable to write Amtrak about the incident.

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## SarahZ

Hal said:


> There is a rule that you can't buy two seats because you don't want someone sitting next to you. That is because if the train it is hard to explain to standing passengers why they can't sit in the empty seat.


True. For unreserved trains, this would be an issue. For reserved, they could simply put the double hashes (or whatever that conductor uses) on the seat check to indicate both seats are taken. But I see the point when it comes to unreserved trains.


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## Hal

SarahZ said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Most Amtrak services are subsidized, ticket prices don't cover the cost of providing the seat in most cases. and the public should not be forced to subsidize someone's desire to have an empty seat next to them.* We should be absolutely sensitive to someone with a medical condition that makes it beneficial or necessary for them to use 2 seats.
> 
> 
> 
> While that part makes sense, I still want to know how Amtrak determines if obesity is caused by a medical condition.
Click to expand...

A passenger can buy two seats because of size. Amtrak does not say obesity is a medical condition or try to determine it is a medical condition. 
You can also obtain two seats because of a medical condition. Like a leg in a cast. Or a recent hip operation. That is a separate rule than the one about size.

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## Hal

SarahZ said:


> Hal said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a rule that you can't buy two seats because you don't want someone sitting next to you. That is because if the train it is hard to explain to standing passengers why they can't sit in the empty seat.
> 
> 
> 
> True. For unreserved trains, this would be an issue. For reserved, they could simply put the double hashes (or whatever that conductor uses) on the seat check to indicate both seats are taken. But I see the point when it comes to unreserved trains.
Click to expand...

It would be the same for reserved trains because seats are not assigned. Seat checks are primarily so the crew doesn't bother passengers over and over again for a ticket they have already lifted and to remind passengers that their stop is coming up. Many will wake you up if you are asleep and your stop is approaching. Amtrak does not like carry byes, particularly on routes the next train is the next day. 

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## BCL

The Blue Book was mentioned, but I didn't see an actual link to it. This may be kind of old (someone filed a FOIA request), but I don't see how it would have changed in any appreciable way.

http://www.governmentattic.org/4docs/AmtrakServiceStandardsManual_2011.pdf

It's on page 8-68, and obesity due to disability is separated from large size in general. I don't know how they know, but if the passenger is willing to pay for two tickets, by rule it's allowed.

*4. Coach*

a) *Each Coach seat reservation entitles passengers to* occupy only one seat per person.
b) *An additional seat may be reserved for a Service Assistance Animal* accompanying a blind, deaf or mobility-impaired person at no charge.
c) *A passenger who requires two seats due to a disability,* including obesity caused by a disability, a leg in a cast, a hip operation, may book two seats and pay only one fare.
d) *A passenger who requires two seats due to size alone*, not caused by a disability, may book two seats but must pay the lowest applicable fare for both seats.
e) *A passenger cannot book two seats* simply because they do not want anyone sitting next to them. If the train is full, it is very hard to explain to standing passengers why that empty seat cannot be used.
f) *A passenger cannot book a Coach seat and a Sleeping Car accommodation,* just so they can move back and forth between the two spaces.


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## notAnn

Thank you for ALL the responses, especially the actual document. I'm perfectly willing to pay the full fare for both seats, so I fall under (d) and not ©. Believe me, anyone who got the seat next to me would be writing to Amtrak as well. This happened the first time I did the CS when I didn't realize the seats weren't as wide as on the heritage Zephyr train I rode (EVERYONE is shrinking their seats!) and some poor girl spent her trip in the observation car. I want to avoid that for both of us.

I did write to Amtrak, basically stating that same thing to them, and the response I got was "Of COURSE you can buy two seats!" This makes me nervous. Does Customer Service outweigh (pardon the pun) a station agent?

I have a separate issue but I'll open a different topic for that. Thanks for the link to the book; I'll print it out and carry it with me.


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