# Amtrak ONLY Rail Transit to Not Allow Pets!



## Ernest (May 24, 2012)

I want to go from Richmond, VA to Washington, DC, and Amtrak seemed at first a good way to go. Problem is Amtrak has a strict No Pets policy--not in even in hard sided carriers. Virtually ALL other rail transit companies I could find allow pet transit in some form or manner, including NYC, VRE, Boston, San Francisco, LA, Atlanta, Chicago--other transit systems that I've tried, so this discovery became a good reason to complain.

Here is the response provided Amtrak customer service in a reply e-mail:

_While we certainly understand your wish to bring your pet on board Amtrak, we are not able to accommodate animals other than service animals for people with disabilities._

_ _

_This policy was created to provide a comfortable environment for all our customers. _

_ _

_Many people choose to utilize independent pet transportation companies. While we cannot recommend one, they can be found in most yellow pages, through your veterinarian or on the Internet._

_ _

_We hope this information is useful. _

_ _

_Sincerely,_

_ _

_ Maureen _

Frankly contrary to her words, I read neither an actual desire to understand, a willingness to be interested, nor any comprehension of what a pet owner is likely to do with their animal during transit. Just what does she mean by _a comfortable environment for all our customers_? Since the vast majority of other rail, airline, and ferry transport permit pets in carriers, does Amtrak think it understand passengers more than other system? Amtrak account balance sheet suggests otherwise.

I find it amazing that this response would claim that _many people_ ride Amtrak and then use an _independent pet transportation company_ to convey their small dogs--the largest constituency of pet owners. So, this claim is almost certainly not true. Rather, potential passengers find transit other than Amtrak, maybe renting a car or riding one of the many other urban rail transit systems.

It is quite apparent from this message that, unlike the many other transit system in the USA, Amtrak hasn't thoughtfully evaluated the transit opportunities for pet owners, and so looses yet another opportunity to raise revenue during a times of budget shortfall. Thanks for nothing Amtrak.


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## AlanB (May 24, 2012)

Ernest,

The big difference between your examples and Amtrak is that all those other transit systems provide runs that are under 3 hours in total, if not far less. Now while your plaaned trip from Richmond to DC runs in the 2 and a half hour range, that doesn't apply to all trips. It is possible to book trips on Amtrak that last 2 days.

Two days is a lot to ask both of other people and your pet. Two days for those other passengers to endure possible barking. Or for those with allergies, two days of cat dander flying around their car.


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## Wildcat (May 24, 2012)

I do not understand the pet fetish, no matter what. I have two cats... other than to the vet, they go nowhere with me. Some people find cats offensive; I generally find dogs offensive, no matter the breed.

What also troubles me is this sense of entitlement, particularly among pet owners. For instance, I live in a city where pets of all sorts are NOT allowed in restaurants or anywhere food is served (another reason why Amtrak won't allow pets). I was at a restaurant one morning for my bagel and coffee, and a couple walked in, followed by their dog (on a leash, at least). I told them that it was illegal to do that and they took offense, the wife saying, "we let our dog in the kitchen of our house; why not here." I immediately called the local police and they were johnny on the spot issuing a citation to the couple, and to the restaurant. The manager was fired within an hour for allowing it. But the looks of shock on the offending couple were amazing: like this had never, ever, ever happened to them anywhere before.

Rubbish.

So keep the dog home or use a service or stay home. I don't want a mutt on a train anywhere near me.


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## ehbowen (May 24, 2012)

Agreed. I believe that sometime shortly after the formation of Amtrak, the USDA (or perhaps some other agency with similar jurisdiction) issued regulations for common carriers transporting animals which Amtrak found to be overly burdensome....minimum/maximum allowable temperatures (baggage cars are not air conditioned), rest and exercise breaks (and the liability for handling animals during them, not to mention delay of trains while these breaks occurred) and other such. The upshot was that Amtrak declined to carry animals any longer, unless those animals were trained service animals cared for by the passenger. However, one loophole which has been discussed here previously is that Amtrak will not ask for any certification or proof that the animal has been specially trained or even what disability the passenger is claiming; they will take the owner's word that it is a "trained service animal" and allow it aboard to be cared for by the passenger.


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## benjibear (May 24, 2012)

Could you imagine having your pet in a carrier for days as somebody does a cross country trip? Where is the pet going to go to the bathroom, eat, and what if the pet gets restless? Think of other people that will be riding with you in the same car that has to endure the smell, dander if they have alergies, and possibly a barking dog or meowing cat? The other examples you give are either city transit companies or short commuter type lines. While I understand you are not going a long distance on your trip, the train starts and/or stops long after you get on or off. If Amtrak would allow you to do a short trip, it would be a slippery slope of where they cut off. I don'rt see it as being feasible.

Also, I want to correct you on your dog statistic. The largest number of pet owners have cats then small dogs. I remeber reading that like 40% of the population has a dog (all size dogs) while it is only slightly less for cats but more cat owners have mutilple cats while dog owners typically only have one dog. I would say cats outnumber small dogs by at least 2 to 1.


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## Peter KG6LSE (May 24, 2012)

How is Fido any less dander then a seeing eye dog ? .. It's not .. regardless if the animal is considered "medical equipment" or a pet .

I doubt there will be a railcar full of pets if amtrak was to permit it .I used to fly a ton .. I have only seen a dog in a aircraft cabin in 2X in 20 years ..

A DC9 is way more air tight then a super liner ..

If we had better cars with better filtration AKA no more 1970s tin cans . then this _{Might_} not be a issue .

Thus we need more funds in to amtrak to fund better cars to have better service ..

In the end .. rail more fly less...

Oh and the topic of comfort ... I dont like some dude or lady with half a gallon of AXE body spray Or Musk sitting next to me ..

what can I do about it but be Miserable ! the entire 3 day trip .. I rather smell Wet Dog then some deer musk..

Edit as 97 more posts were done in the time i took fo rme to type this ..

I DONT condone pets in most places ..

I have a cat at my moms house ... and I would never subject him to travle .

USDA is one thing I can understand ... but to say its for others comfort is not entirey true ..



Peter


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## Agent (May 24, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that VIA Rail in Canada doesn't allow pets either.


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## zephyr17 (May 24, 2012)

Agent said:


> I'm pretty sure that VIA Rail in Canada doesn't allow pets either.


Not in passenger cars, but they still allow them to be carried in baggage cars. Owner responsible for food, water and "walking".


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## me_little_me (May 24, 2012)

ehbowen said:


> Agreed. I believe that sometime shortly after the formation of Amtrak, the USDA (or perhaps some other agency with similar jurisdiction) issued regulations for common carriers transporting animals which Amtrak found to be overly burdensome....minimum/maximum allowable temperatures (baggage cars are not air conditioned), rest and exercise breaks (and the liability for handling animals during them, not to mention delay of trains while these breaks occurred) and other such. The upshot was that Amtrak declined to carry animals any longer, unless those animals were trained service animals cared for by the passenger. However, one loophole which has been discussed here previously is that Amtrak will not ask for any certification or proof that the animal has been specially trained or even what disability the passenger is claiming; they will take the owner's word that it is a "trained service animal" and allow it aboard to be cared for by the passenger.


Not quite. And your posting sounds like an encouragement to cheat the system which can result in the pet and/or owner subject to involuntary removal.

From the Amtrak Standards Manual:

*3. Determining If An Animal Is A Service Animal – “Is This Your Pet”*

*a) Physical Indicators – Look for physical indicators on the animal. Some service animals wear harnesses, vests, capes or backpacks. Markings on these items or on the animal’s tags may identify it as a service animal. The absence of such equipment however, does not necessarily mean the animal is not a service animal.*

*b) Observation – Observe the animal’s behavior. Service animals are trained to behave properly in public settings. For example, a properly trained guide dog will not run around the station, bark or growl at other passengers, or bite or jump on people.*

*• Some service animals provide assistance or perform specific services.*

*• Service animals are not pets; they are working animals that are specifically trained to provide assistance for individuals who have disabilities.*

*• Some service animals can help a person by pulling a wheelchair, fetching dropped items, handling money, carrying bags, opening doors or assisting a person with a visual impairment.*

*• Some service animals serve as seizureresponse/alert animals for people with seizure disorders or alert individuals with impaired hearing to intruders or sounds.*

*c) Is This Your Pet*

*Credible verbal assurances is needed from the passenger that the animal is a service animal. The way to do this:*

*• Ask the passenger, “Is this your pet?”*

*If the passenger responds that the animal is a service animal and not a pet, but uncertainty remains about the animal, you may ask appropriate follow up questions.*

*• Ask the passenger, “What tasks or functions does your animal perform for you?” or “What has it been trained to do for you?”*

*The passenger must respond that the animal acts as a guide, notifies of a seizures, etc.*

* *

*Service Standards Manual No. 6 11-13*

*11-14 Assisting Passengers with Disabilities*

*Employees may not ask the passenger what his/her disability is or the cause of the disability.*

*• Although there may be a few people who try to “beat the system” by bringing pets on-board the train, most passengers with disabilities claiming to have service animals really do have service animals.*

*• Since access for persons with disabilities traveling with service animals is a civil right covered under the ADA, employees should err on the side of caution by permitting access to passenger areas. If the animal looks like a service animal and the customer says it is a service animal welcome the animal aboard.*

*d) Not a Service Animal*

*• If an animal is determined not to be a service animal or if the service animal poses a direct threat to others, the animal can be denied access to Amtrak premises.*

*• On the rare occasion that an animal has to be excluded from Amtrak premises, you should handle the situation in a polite and professional manner.*

*• When an animal is excluded from Amtrak premises while en route, the employee making this decision must complete a “Passenger Incident Report” (NRPC 3200) detailing the incident.*


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 24, 2012)

*b) Observation – Observe the animal’s behavior. Service animals are trained to behave properly in public settings. For example, a properly trained guide dog will not run around the station, bark or growl at other passengers, or bite or jump on people.*

I do believe this screening should apply to some passengers as well :lol:


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## Anderson (May 24, 2012)

I'll offer a personal example: I am catastrophically allergic to cats, to the point that were I stuck in the same coach as one for a day or two...well, let's just say that point blank I couldn't be because of the dander and my body's reaction to it. I would be sneezing and breaking out in hives under those circumstances, in all likelihood (particularly if I'd had some "reinforcing" exposure beforehand). I can take at most an hour or two in the same house as a friend's cats, and even then I'm usually an absolute miserable mess by the end of it.

Also:

* • Some service animals can help a person by pulling a wheelchair, fetching dropped items, handling money, carrying bags, opening doors or assisting a person with a visual impairment.*

* *

Handling money? I didn't know they were hiring apes at the banks these days. Banana for a credit default swap?


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## sunchaser (May 24, 2012)

Ernest said:


> I want to go from Richmond, VA to Washington, DC, and Amtrak seemed at first a good way to go. Problem is Amtrak has a strict No Pets policy--not in even in hard sided carriers. Virtually ALL other rail transit companies I could find allow pet transit in some form or manner, including NYC, VRE, Boston, San Francisco, LA, Atlanta, Chicago--other transit systems that I've tried, so this discovery became a good reason to complain.
> 
> Here is the response provided Amtrak customer service in a reply e-mail:
> 
> ...


As a pet owner, sometimes I think it would be nice to take my Blue and Gold Macaw with me. Then I realize he may not like it, and would probably make everyone miserable if I could bring him. I know your trip is fairly short, but on long distance trains it can be up to an 8 hour time span between stops. That would be awful for a dog. Many people are allergic to dogs, cats and even birds. I'm sure your pet is well mannered, quiet and housebroken, but many pets are not. I think the only real solution would be a 'pet car', but I doubt if anything like that will surface. Even if it did, I probably still would not take my bird, because he's not used to being around dogs anymore, he would probably screech very loudly!


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## Agent (May 24, 2012)

zephyr17 said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure that VIA Rail in Canada doesn't allow pets either.
> ...


Okay, thanks for clarifying.


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## GoldenSpike (May 24, 2012)

Peter KG6LSE said:


> I have only seen a dog in a aircraft cabin in 2X in 20 years ..


On a recent flight, the young lady ahead of me while boarding had a cat in her carry-on (mesh ventilation on each end).

I didn't know they were allowed. Unknown if the cat had to go through the TSA grope.


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## me_little_me (May 24, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I'll offer a personal example: I am catastrophically allergic to cats, to the point that were I stuck in the same coach as one for a day or two...well, let's just say that point blank I couldn't be because of the dander and my body's reaction to it. I would be sneezing and breaking out in hives under those circumstances, in all likelihood (particularly if I'd had some "reinforcing" exposure beforehand). I can take at most an hour or two in the same house as a friend's cats, and even then I'm usually an absolute miserable mess by the end of it.
> 
> Also:
> 
> ...


Upscale Service tarantulas like mine are trained to use credit cards. Mine carries a Chase Rare Earth Plus card as it isn't allowed to collect AGR points - it rides for free.


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## amtrakwolverine (May 24, 2012)

I currently Have 8 cats. I used to have a dog and a cat but had to put the dog down due to a tumor. I love both cats and dogs but can't see on bringing them with me on a cross country trip. Find a pet sitter or hire a friend to pet sit the animals while your away.


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## amamba (May 24, 2012)

I think we can all agree that pets should not be allowed on long trips - cross country, overnight, etc.

But I do think its somewhat annoying that one can't take a small dog or cat in a carrier on a short jaunt down the NEC. I would love to take the train around the holidays as my parents live outside of PHL, but I always have to drive because I'm not leaving my dog at home during the holidays. My dog would happily sleep for the 4 hour trip from PVD - PHL on acela, and frankly he goes 8 hours a day while I am at work without a bathroom break.

But yeah, I understand why amtrak has the policy that it does because it is easier for them to have it black and white than more nuanced, like pets allowed in hard sided carriers on trips of less than three hours or something. But I think it is fair for folks to vent their displeasure about it without everyone going crazy.

My husband is just as allergic to cats as another poster, and unfortunately we did once find ourselves seated on a plane with a person with a cat in between us and the cat underneath the seat in front of us. We asked the FA to switch because of his allergies and we were accommodated to an empty row at back, but that was 6 years ago when I know planes were a lot less full.


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## sunchaser (May 24, 2012)

amamba said:


> I think we can all agree that pets should not be allowed on long trips - cross country, overnight, etc.
> 
> But I do think its somewhat annoying that one can't take a small dog or cat in a carrier on a short jaunt down the NEC. I would love to take the train around the holidays as my parents live outside of PHL, but I always have to drive because I'm not leaving my dog at home during the holidays. My dog would happily sleep for the 4 hour trip from PVD - PHL on acela, and frankly he goes 8 hours a day while I am at work without a bathroom break.
> 
> ...


I think the biggest problems would be the allergy risk and safety issues/risks of bites, etc.

Also sound factor-as long as the pet isn't barking/meowing/whining/screeching.

That is an unpredictable factor-you can't guarantee your pet will be quiet, any more than someone can guarantee a baby won't cry for all or part of the trip. For example, my bird is doing his daily afternoon squawk-fest right now!


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## amtrakwolverine (May 24, 2012)

Also How would you feel if fido got loose from his cage and got startled and when a little kid reached down to pet the dog the dog attacked. Maybe allow pets on trains that have a baggage or cabbage car and the route is under a certain time and you have to pay to take the dog or cat with you just like bikes.When you book your revvy you have to choose if you're bringing any pets and what kind and limit it to 1 pet per reservation.If the baggage or cabbage is not running then your outta luck.


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## amamba (May 24, 2012)

sunchaser said:


> I think the biggest problems would be the allergy risk and safety issues/risks of bites, etc.
> 
> Also sound factor-as long as the pet isn't barking/meowing/whining/screeching.
> 
> That is an unpredictable factor-you can't guarantee your pet will be quiet, any more than someone can guarantee a baby won't cry for all or part of the trip. For example, my bird is doing his daily afternoon squawk-fest right now!


These are all "problems" that the airline industry manages to face, and again, safety issues should be mitigated if the animal is in a carrier.

I am just pointing out that many commuter/short haul railroads and airlines allow animals that meet certain guidelines to be brought aboard the passenger cabin, and personally I would like to do be able to do the same on short trips on the NEC. I understand why they don't do it, but I think its a valid complaint.


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## amamba (May 24, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Also How would you feel if fido got loose from his cage and got startled and when a little kid reached down to pet the dog it the dog attacked. maybe allow pets on trains that have a baggage or cabbage car and the route is under a certain time and you have to pay to take the dog or cat with you just like bikes etc and if the baggage or cabbage is not running then your outta luck.


Have you ever heard of this happening on a plane or some other sort of public transit where animals in carriers are allowed?

Allowing dogs in a baggage car would not be sufficient on the NEC because only the 66/67 runs with baggage between BOS - NYP.


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## Peter KG6LSE (May 24, 2012)

GoldenSpike said:


> Peter KG6LSE said:
> 
> 
> > I have only seen a dog in a aircraft cabin in 2X in 20 years ..
> ...


HAHAH I don't know who to be more sorry for .. the Cat or the TSA .....

Perhaps a way to solve this is to charge a normal human fee for any animal .. pooch or Puss does take up revenue space does it not ..

There ya go . charge a paw and tail and get new filters that way ..


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## RRUserious (May 24, 2012)

I bet if you took a vote on how many passengers want someone ELSE'S animal in the car with them, the answer would be pretty overwhelmingly no. My house is full of pets. When we both go somehwere (not a frequent thing), my wife finds people to give them attention in our home. I doubt she'd consider taking them in a private car, let alone a public transport. I think I can safely generalize that NO ONE loves your pet as much as you do. It (or they) are no gift to society. Local people here seem to want to take their dogs into everywhere and complain about lack of "dog friendly stores". Uh, I think its safe to say since the HUMANS pay the freight, the owners tilt toward human-friendly stores, which probably trumps the dog-friendly option.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 24, 2012)

Most of the problems people seem to have with pets would not appear to be a huge issue when caged on a commute length run or kept in a baggage car on a long distance run. I know there are reasons why this is not allowed anyway, but I could see some room for compromise if handled carefully.


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## sunchaser (May 24, 2012)

amamba said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > I think the biggest problems would be the allergy risk and safety issues/risks of bites, etc.
> ...


Just last week a dog escaped it carrier and was on the tarmac for quite a while before the owner was able to coax it back into the carrier. As I said before, I sometimes think about taking my pet, but I'm being selfish when I do. He may not enjoy it as much as I want him along. I have taken him camping before, and he was upset for a while then would settle down. To me, it's just more to take care of and keep track of on the trip. I certainly would not subject him to being in baggage. The noise would freak him out so bad that I don't think I would be able to control him. I don't have a real problem with others having pets aboard as long as there are no problems with it.


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## saxman (May 24, 2012)

You can carry small animals on airlines for a fee, as long as they are in a closed kennel. Or you can check them. Remember that flights are usually not that long either.

I was once on the Crescent in coach. I had just boarded in the middle of the night when this little dog crawled up under my feet. I picked it up and asked around if anyone had a dog but no one answered. When the conductor came around to take tickets, I told him I had a dog, so he asked around and it just turned out to be the woman in front of me. Maybe she didn't hear me. The conductor, unfortunately, had to let her off the train. I think she had just let the dog out to stretch it's legs or something. I'm not sure.

On my recent Canadian trip, there was a couple that brought a large dog with them. He was checked in the baggage car. On long breaks they were allowed to go walk him. Also I think they were able to access him while the train was moving. But still, the Canadian can sometimes not make station stops for hours at a time. It was only the major station stops that we made a long enough stop for them.


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## RRUserious (May 24, 2012)

People around my neighborhood walk their dogs by my yard and they stop unpredictably to crap on my lawn. How can any pet owner predict when a dog needs to take a dump, and how can the owner prevent it happening in the carrier. And then what prevents that from stinking up the whole car till the owner's stop? Dogs in passenger compartments just seem like a bad idea, not that I expect their owners to volunteer the bad aspects.


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## MrFSS (May 24, 2012)

Wait until about half way into the video.

http://www.wimp.com/dogcourse/


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## sunchaser (May 24, 2012)

I just did a quick search for pets on trains, with some surprising results:

Here.

Here.

And here.

It seems that depending on where you go and what train you take, there can be lots of rules and sometimes extra expenses involved to bring your pet.


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## Shawn Ryu (May 24, 2012)

MrFSS said:


> Wait until about half way into the video.
> 
> http://www.wimp.com/dogcourse/


I loled.

funniest pet show ever


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## sunchaser (May 24, 2012)

MrFSS said:


> Wait until about half way into the video.
> 
> http://www.wimp.com/dogcourse/


:giggle: Saw that one the news last week. You know what they say, when you gotta go, you gotta go! :giggle:


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## Ben_G (May 24, 2012)

We had a guy on the CZ each way with a service dog, nothing that said service dog on the fisrt one. On the way west it was a guy on cruches, both sides. He looked to have a hard time moving. He had a Pit Bull as a service dog, first one of that breed I had seen in that position. He was in the lower level of coach and got out several times to walk his dog.....never was successful tho. Dog sniffed everything in sight but never went. He got off in Grand Junction and IIRC got on someplace in Iowa.

One the way back we had a guy get on with a beautiful golden retriever, It did have the vest on that read service dog. I got the chance to talk with the guy a few minutes and he said it was the dog's first trip....I thought well thats a accident waiting to happen. He had it on a long leash part of the time and it jumped up each time the train slowed down or stopped. Went up and down the isles sniffing everyone in the isle seats hands then when the train started moving again it went back and laid at the guys feet. He only rode 3 or 4 stops and got off.....no accidents but he said as he walked past when getting off....She is ready to get off this train.

I don't have a problem with service animals but to just bring your pet along to make yourself feel better than boarding it...leave Fifi or Tom at home.


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 24, 2012)

I'm waiting for the day someone shows up at the station with their 8 foot pet Burmese Python or perhaps a small carry box full of Emperor Scorpions (those actually make fascinating safe pets if you are into Exotic Pets).


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## amamba (May 24, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> People around my neighborhood walk their dogs by my yard and they stop unpredictably to crap on my lawn. How can any pet owner predict when a dog needs to take a dump, and how can the owner prevent it happening in the carrier. And then what prevents that from stinking up the whole car till the owner's stop? Dogs in passenger compartments just seem like a bad idea, not that I expect their owners to volunteer the bad aspects.


You assume that the dogs are stopping unpredictably. My dog predictably has a bowel movement two times a day. And yes, he always goes on someone's lawn because we live in a city. I always have a bag to pick it up.

Dogs have a natural instinct to NOT go to the bathroom in their "home" or "den." This is why crate training is practiced for puppies. Any person who spends five minutes (or less) on the google will know that dogs are not likely to go to the bathroom in their carrier or crate.

Again, dogs are allowed on airplanes in containers or carriers and they seem to be able to deal with this issue just fine. Again, I am not advocating taking pets on multi-day/overnight LD journeys, but just pointing out that it might be reasonable to allow pets in containers on short trips of 3-4 hours (or less), as that would approach the experience and conditions already allowed by other forms of transportation.


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## Texan Eagle (May 24, 2012)

amamba said:


> Again, I am not advocating taking pets on multi-day/overnight LD journeys, but just pointing out that it might be reasonable to allow pets in containers on short trips of 3-4 hours (or less), as that would approach the experience and conditions already allowed by other forms of transportation.


It seems like a reasonable request on paper but I see two possible problems- one, what should be the "cut-off" maximum journey time for which pets to be allowed? 4 hours? Then someone with a journey time 4 hr 05 minutes will make a big hue and cry about how unfair and unaccommodating Amtrak is. Secondly, we all know how often Amtrak trains get delayed, sometimes due to their own fault (locomotive dies), sometimes due to freight railroad's fault (derailment, traffic sidings), and a lot of times due to fault of people without half a brain- the motorists, trucks and pedestrians who love getting in the way of Amtrak, resulting in 2-3 hours of delay, sometimes even longer, depending on how long the police investigation takes and whether the crew ran out of hours or not. These are not once-in-a-blue-moon events, they happen fairly regularly. Now what happens if Mr Doggie or Miss Pussycat happens to be on one such train for a 4 hour journey that has now become a 8 hour ordeal?


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## Green Maned Lion (May 25, 2012)

I'm a pet owner, not only a pet owner, but an animal breeder. My animals are rodents, but the only difference between a dog and a rat, besides growing teeth, is that the rat is more intelligent. Forget about the more intelligent species of rodents, particularly peromyscus. The fact of the matter is, I am sure you don't want to smell my rodents urine and fecal matter, right? I don't want to hear your dog barking, your cat meowing, and so on.

In a commuter setting, if you bring your dog on the train, I'll move to another car. No harm done. But on Amtrak? Can I move to a different roomette? Can I move to another car? What if you come on in the middle of the night while I'm trying to sleep? Trust me, if you had a dog on an Amfleet II while I was sleeping, that dog would be experiencing the unique sensation of exiting a moving Amfleet II at 80 mph. Amtrak is preventing this kind of problem. Transporting them in the baggage car would be more reasonable. It is possible that with the new baggage fleet, Amtrak may reintroduce pet carriage.


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## Swadian Hardcore (May 25, 2012)

I don't want somebody coming on board a train with a pet, making noises, shedding hair/fur, relieving oneself, amd generally disturbing other passengers. You take about a hard kennel, well they could still cause problems for the crew and there's no designated place to put it. If put with the baggage, the pet might stink up all the baggage.


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## Swadian Hardcore (May 25, 2012)

GML has a good point. If a pet is messing with me, I can't do anything on Amtrak. I also don't have a pet so I'm not expierienced with them, putting me in a tight spot if a pet sneaks on.


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## MattW (May 25, 2012)

You also can't do anything about a pet messing with you on an airline either...

But as to the issue of length of trip, why not copy and paste from the (otherwise draconian, in my personal opinion) unaccompanied minor policy. Amtrak has no problems requiring unaccompanied minors to between certain travel times, why not accompanied animals too?


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## RRUserious (May 25, 2012)

MattW said:


> You also can't do anything about a pet messing with you on an airline either...
> 
> But as to the issue of length of trip, why not copy and paste from the (otherwise draconian, in my personal opinion) unaccompanied minor policy. Amtrak has no problems requiring unaccompanied minors to between certain travel times, why not accompanied animals too?


Some people here may say "OK on the plane, but not on the train". I say, "Get a friend or relative to care for them and leave them at home". I'm mystified by humans who can't part from an animal they own. Maybe they shouldn't be traveling at all. Maybe that person is just too insecure.


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## oldtimer (May 25, 2012)

First of all I have an extreme allergy to cats, I cannot even enter a home that has cats. As I have gotten older my allergies have become more severe (pollen and mold in addition to cats). I know that a cat in a railcar will cause me problems.

On the other hand I also have a fabulous Jack Russel Terrier. She is very quiet and well behaved. She was a rescue dog from Iowa. She has been able to bowels and urine for as long as 11 hours. The most amazing thing about her is that if I am sleeping and my blood sugar drops into the 60's she will wake me up, by nudging or licking me. If there was a way to certify her (officially) I am sure that she would qualify as a service animal under the ADA. I can see the point of those that cannot medically tolerate animals, and also the point of "service" animals as from my own experience with my JRT.

All that being said I must agree with Amtrak's current policy until a temperature controlled baggage area can be insured and the animals transported in a hard side carrier.

Al aka oldtimer.


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## amtrakwolverine (May 25, 2012)

You might get a climate controlled baggage car with the new viewliner dorm/baggage cars. Don't know if the baggage part will be climate controlled?


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## Henry Kisor (May 25, 2012)

Media Relations told me that the baggage car idea was briefly considered and then rejected. Suppose the cooling system broke down in 100 degree heat and all the animals perished? Lawsuits would ensue. Allergy sufferers also often sue. Our lawsuit-happy American culture is the reason Amtrak will not pets except for service animals. Other countries are not so litigious.


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## amamba (May 25, 2012)

RRUserious said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > You also can't do anything about a pet messing with you on an airline either...
> ...


So many rude assumptions in this post. I don't bring my dog on vacation, but I don't live near my family and travel to see them for the holidays. When I am going to stay with my family for a week for the holidays, I prefer to bring my dog because I am staying at a relative's home and they also enjoy having the dog around. I do lots of travelling without my dog, but there are some trips where I take him. My dog IS part of my family. You don't have to understand that, but it's rude to belittle some owners in that manner.

Again, I am totally fine with the amtrak policy as it is and absolutely understand why they have the black/white policy that they do. It is much easier for them. I get that. Just pointing out that our guest poster has what I think is a valid complaint.


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## George Harris (May 25, 2012)

oldtimer said:


> The most amazing thing about her is that if I am sleeping and my blood sugar drops into the 60's she will wake me up, by nudging or licking me. If there was a way to certify her (officially) I am sure that she would qualify as a service animal under the ADA.


There ought to be a way to get her certified. Even if not, you would have a very sound reason to legitimately call her a service animal and explain why. I would regard her ability and actions as truly potentially life saving, and of perticular use when traveling, as when off normal schedule seems to be when blood sugar levels are most likely to go haywire.


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## Dog Rancher (May 27, 2012)

Wildcat said:


> I do not understand the pet fetish, no matter what. I have two cats... other than to the vet, they go nowhere with me. Some people find cats offensive; I generally find dogs offensive, no matter the breed.
> 
> What also troubles me is this sense of entitlement, particularly among pet owners. For instance, I live in a city where pets of all sorts are NOT allowed in restaurants or anywhere food is served (another reason why Amtrak won't allow pets). I was at a restaurant one morning for my bagel and coffee, and a couple walked in, followed by their dog (on a leash, at least). I told them that it was illegal to do that and they took offense, the wife saying, "we let our dog in the kitchen of our house; why not here." _*I immediately called the local police and they were johnny on the spot issuing a citation to the couple, and to the restaurant. The manager was fired within an hour for allowing it. *_


You must be proud.


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## benjibear (May 27, 2012)

Dog Rancher said:


> Wildcat said:
> 
> 
> > I do not understand the pet fetish, no matter what. I have two cats... other than to the vet, they go nowhere with me. Some people find cats offensive; I generally find dogs offensive, no matter the breed.
> ...



I don't see anything worng with what he did.


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## amtrakwolverine (May 28, 2012)

It's Against the FDA rules to allow animals other then service dogs into a food establishment. Managers can be fired for ignoring problems. Like this one were this fry cook at a fast food place took a bath during the shift in the dish-washing sink and his co-workers video-taped it and the manager ignored it. Well the FDA fired everyone from the shift including the shift manager and they had to disinfect and sanitize the entire kitchen.


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## me_little_me (May 28, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> It's Against the FDA rules to allow animals other then service dogs into a food establishment. Managers can be fired for ignoring problems. Like this one were this fry cook at a fast food place took a bath during the shift in the dish-washing sink and his co-workers video-taped it and the manager ignored it. Well the FDA fired everyone from the shift including the shift manager and they had to disinfect and sanitize the entire kitchen.


If by FDA, you mean the Food and Drug Administration, NO WAY! They can't fire their own employees much less someone else's!


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## amtrakwolverine (May 29, 2012)

I found the story and it does not say anything about the FDA like I thought but 2 employees were fired and 1 quit. the manager just continued to count cash while the incident took place. It's the health dept that can shut a place down.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2008-08-12-1675335399_x.htm


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## Shanghai (May 29, 2012)

benjibear said:


> Dog Rancher said:
> 
> 
> > Wildcat said:
> ...


If you find dogs in restaurants offensive, do not go to Europe!!

Dogs are permitted, actually invited, into restaurants. When we

lived in the Netherlands, most restaurants brought a dish of water

for the dogs. Same is true for France, Germany, Austria and Belgium.


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## me_little_me (May 29, 2012)

Shanghai said:


> If you find dogs in restaurants offensive, do not go to Europe!!
> 
> Dogs are permitted, actually invited, into restaurants. When we
> 
> ...


Why? I don't think allowing dogs in restaurants is a good idea. Just like I don't think that it was particularly sanitary of Holland pastry shop owners to simply brush away wasps in the pastry cases. Just like I dislike the European reluctance to truly stop smoking or clean their graffiti. But it hasn't stopped my going there 14 times. Nor has it affected my visiting countries with a different sanitary standard regarding bathroom cleanliness. However, I don't live there. If I had, I would fight to change the laws. But I don't. However, I do respect their culture and habits so as a visitor, I don't say anything there.

Europe is a wonderful place to visit but like their justifiable criticism of some of our Americanisms, we do not have to accept their quirks without criticizing yet we can both visit each others' countries and smile while cringing inside.

Here where law prohibits pets in restaurants, it should be respected and obeyed just as one should respect and obeys laws against smoking in such places.

To bring this discussion back to the original posting, Amtrak has legitimate reasons to ban pets. There may be alternatives and I am sure they considered but rejected them because of potential problems. The rules are known. The consequences are known. Changing those rules should be done by appealing to Amtrak management not by violating the rule or cheating or lying to Amtrak regarding one's pet.


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## Goat'sHeadSoup (May 30, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> It's Against the FDA rules to allow animals other then service dogs into a food establishment. Managers can be fired for ignoring problems. Like this one were this fry cook at a fast food place took a bath during the shift in the dish-washing sink and his co-workers video-taped it and the manager ignored it. Well the FDA fired everyone from the shift including the shift manager and they had to disinfect and sanitize the entire kitchen.


FDA can't fire anyone. Local health inspectors can close a place for a violation, but that's not even reported to the FDA. Where on earth did you get that bit of information? Or is it purely supposition?


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## Goat'sHeadSoup (Jun 1, 2012)

Shanghai said:


> benjibear said:
> 
> 
> > Dog Rancher said:
> ...


I go to Europe a lot. Europeans look at life differently than how we do and vice versa. Neither is wrong or right. I don't like pets in restaurants there anymore than I do here, but I put up with it in Europe because "them's the rules." Here, no so much.


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## Goat'sHeadSoup (Jun 1, 2012)

Dog Rancher said:


> Wildcat said:
> 
> 
> > I do not understand the pet fetish, no matter what. I have two cats... other than to the vet, they go nowhere with me. Some people find cats offensive; I generally find dogs offensive, no matter the breed.
> ...


Sure am. Besides, it's part of the health code, no matter what dog/cat owners think or want to believe. As I said, I have two cats and would never inflict them on anyone who didn't like cats. I don't like dogs... and I don't want them inflicted on me.


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## leemell (Jun 1, 2012)

Goat said:


> Dog Rancher said:
> 
> 
> > Wildcat said:
> ...


I am a dog owner (for 30+ years), but he is right. Where Health Code says no animals, there should be no animals. There is no special entitlement for dogs and those people should have been cited for the infraction. Where animals are allowed in restaurants, by all means, bring them in. When in Europe, we were delighted to find well behaved dogs under the tables around us.


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## A.J. (Jun 1, 2012)

I ADORE my dog and have taken a lot of day trips with her. however, if it were offered, I would not take her on an amtrak long-distance trip. I wouldn't want to have to constantly worry about when i was going to be able to take her out to walk or go to the bathroom. moreover, she is an older dog and sometimes has "accidents". think about it this way: do you want to sit in a seat or be in a roomette where an animal might have had such an "accident"?


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## Linda T (Jun 20, 2012)

Has anyone been following the posts on Amtrak's FB page about the lady who was refused passage because she had her service dog with her? Corey L Bracken wrote: "I am in need of friends and help right now I was just refused service at Amtack with my medical documentation (yes I offered this information willingly)because of my service animal please call these 800-872--7245...and call KATU Newsroom at 503.231.4264 THIS IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW." Based on the station ID and the area code, I'd say this happened near Portland. She also indicated in one of her numerous posts that she was in Spokane Valley, WA when her avatar was taken (so she does seem to be from the NW).

Another post Corey states, "I have my medical documentation and my animal has already been to the Social Security office in Boulder, CO, numerous hospitals and in the records it states that my animal remains calm and collected, as well as having flown 8500 miles since Jan, 2200 miles via greyhound, (though I can document further if needed) and I would not judge someone by their photo for you never know the circumstances of which it was taken (given the photo is not inappropriate) NUFF SAID!!!" Monday at 1:57pm I called on her again to identify what her dog does that makes him a service dog and got the following reply:

"the conductor tried telling me that my animal was a companion animal and not a physical service animal and that I was not riding his train, and told me that if I did not comply with taking a refund that he would call the police and have me removed, I was told by a Mike Dwyer of Amtrak that he would call me back by yesterday, he told me that on Thursday of last week, *my animal alerts to a brain condition* that I have if you must know Ms. Trent, as well as carrying items for me, assists with pulling my manual wheelchair of which I utilize as a walker in the summer, and actually use it as a chair in the colder months, and I will be the first one to admit it I am mentally dependent on those things, but what happens when you drive a manual car for a while and then switch to an automatic transmission, you are mentally looking for that clutch...maybe a bad analogy but I think not. I told Amtrak what my canine does for me, as I offered up my medical documentation, and have their employee recorded telling me that my animal is one of the best that he has seen come through his station and that the conductor was being indifferent because my dog is larger. I accidentally recorded that but I recorded the phone conversation with the lady I was speaking with, and I her permission, to do so, and in that conversation I was told I would receive a call back with in 10 minutes, and that call back has yet to happen. Now the laws just changed March 15 ish, and Amtrak obviously did not educate their employees properly, given the video evidence and recorded calls I will go ahead and file this with the FRA and the USDOT, ONCE AGAIN I HAD MY MEDICAL DOCUMENTATION AND HAVE MOST OF THE SITUATION AT LEAST AUDIBL,Y RECORDED I WILL POST BOTH THE PHONE CALLS(in segments if need be), and the conversations to youtube and gladly add the links to this post if need be..." Yesterday at 2:33pm bold/underline my emphasis.

Dunno, but it looks pretty legit. Thoughts? BTW, if you go to Amtrak's FB page there are about four or five seperate posts that Corey started. I took the most relevant and most informative posts and put them here.


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## jebr (Jun 20, 2012)

Linda T said:


> Has anyone been following the posts on Amtrak's FB page about the lady who was refused passage because she had her service dog with her? Corey L Bracken wrote: "I am in need of friends and help right now I was just refused service at Amtack with my medical documentation (yes I offered this information willingly)because of my service animal please call these 800-872--7245...and call KATU Newsroom at 503.231.4264 THIS IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW." Based on the station ID and the area code, I'd say this happened near Portland. She also indicated in one of her numerous posts that she was in Spokane Valley, WA when her avatar was taken (so she does seem to be from the NW).
> 
> Another post Corey states, "I have my medical documentation and my animal has already been to the Social Security office in Boulder, CO, numerous hospitals and in the records it states that my animal remains calm and collected, as well as having flown 8500 miles since Jan, 2200 miles via greyhound, (though I can document further if needed) and I would not judge someone by their photo for you never know the circumstances of which it was taken (given the photo is not inappropriate) NUFF SAID!!!" Monday at 1:57pm I called on her again to identify what her dog does that makes him a service dog and got the following reply:
> 
> ...


From this part:

"*my animal alerts to a brain condition* that I have if you must know Ms. Trent, as well as carrying items for me, assists with pulling my manual wheelchair of which I utilize as a walker in the summer, and actually use it as a chair in the colder months "

The key is that the animal performs physical functions for him, not merely provide emotional support. I would presume that it would fall under the revised ADA requirements for service animals:

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm


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## Lisa (Nov 7, 2012)

me_little_me said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. I believe that sometime shortly after the formation of Amtrak, the USDA (or perhaps some other agency with similar jurisdiction) issued regulations for common carriers transporting animals which Amtrak found to be overly burdensome....minimum/maximum allowable temperatures (baggage cars are not air conditioned), rest and exercise breaks (and the liability for handling animals during them, not to mention delay of trains while these breaks occurred) and other such. The upshot was that Amtrak declined to carry animals any longer, unless those animals were trained service animals cared for by the passenger. However, one loophole which has been discussed here previously is that Amtrak will not ask for any certification or proof that the animal has been specially trained or even what disability the passenger is claiming; they will take the owner's word that it is a "trained service animal" and allow it aboard to be cared for by the passenger.
> ...


It's actually illegal by Federal Law to ask someone what their disability is. It's technically illegal for Amtrak to therefor ask you what your dogs 'special service' is.

Also I had to assemble a trumpet to leave this post. Amtrak is absurd. If there was another way to make my twice monthly commute from NY to DC I'd do so. Delta shuttle you've got my back, right?


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## stntylr (Nov 7, 2012)

One of my favorite pictures taken aboard the Texas Eagle back in August.


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## Anthony (Nov 7, 2012)

Lisa said:


> Also I had to assemble a trumpet to leave this post. Amtrak is absurd. If there was another way to make my twice monthly commute from NY to DC I'd do so. Delta shuttle you've got my back, right?


LOL!

The trumpet you assembled is what gave you the ability to post here at all without signing up for a membership on this forum, which, by the way, is independently owned and operated. Without that trumpet, we would not be able to allow guest posting due to heavy spam.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 7, 2012)

Lisa said:


> Also I had to assemble a trumpet to leave this post. Amtrak is absurd. If there was another way to make my twice monthly commute from NY to DC I'd do so. Delta shuttle you've got my back, right?


ROFL, this is too funny! This forum is not Amtrak. It's good enough that you can post as a guest here, many forums don't allow that. But the trumpet? It's such a common tool to prevent automated posting I can't believe it's remotely absurd!


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> It's good enough that you can post as a guest here, many forums don't allow that. But the trumpet? It's such a common tool to prevent automated posting I can't believe it's remotely absurd!


The spammer bots have all figured out how to read the CAPTCHA codes that many places currently use, despite the best efforts of those trying to program the CAPTCHA and still manage to leave it readable to a human. So we're now using a new form that picks various common images, and then like a jigsaw puzzle, one must assemble the pieces to create the image.

So far its working really well and guests no longer even need to wait for a moderator to approve their posts. How long that lasts is anyone's guess. But at least for now it's working really well and making the job so much easier for the staff.


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## Henry Kisor (Nov 8, 2012)

I am geezer and my fine motor skills are fading, so assembling those damn trumpets and oranges and whatnot with a mouse can be a bit of a challenge, but the scheme DOES work better than captcha, which is not barring spammers from my blogs very well anymore.


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## AmtrakBlue (Nov 8, 2012)

Wonder if you're going to get a lot of members signing on as guests just to see the puzzles? I'll try to resist.

Thanks for explaining the trumpet because I had no idea what the poster was talking about.


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## Nathanael (Nov 8, 2012)

ehbowen said:


> Agreed. I believe that sometime shortly after the formation of Amtrak, the USDA (or perhaps some other agency with similar jurisdiction) issued regulations for common carriers transporting animals which Amtrak found to be overly burdensome....minimum/maximum allowable temperatures (baggage cars are not air conditioned), rest and exercise breaks (and the liability for handling animals during them, not to mention delay of trains while these breaks occurred) and other such.


I'd like to see a reference to those regulations, if they really exist.

Intercity trains in the entire rest of the world allow people to take pets (in enclosed carriers, of course), often with restrictions. Amtrak's policy is abnormal and not reasonable, and I say this as someone who doesn't like pets. Amtrak's official policies prohibit carrying a *fish in a fish carrier*, which certainly can't get loose; this is truly unique.

I wouldn't even complain if Amtrak had a "no pets on runs longer than 4 hours" rule, even though Russian trains can handle that. But Amtrak has a blanket rule.


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## Nathanael (Nov 8, 2012)

The jigsaw puzzle captcha is OK, but the "match the picture to the category" one is a disaster, and the pictures are impossible to match about half the time. Is there any way you can turn that off and have only jigsaw puzzles?


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## Nathanael (Nov 8, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> It's Against the FDA rules to allow animals other then service dogs into a food establishment.


Wildly untrue. Think of the live lobsters at places which serve lobster... 

The rules are a lot more specific than you think.


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## Anthony (Nov 8, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> The jigsaw puzzle captcha is OK, but the "match the picture to the category" one is a disaster, and the pictures are impossible to match about half the time. Is there any way you can turn that off and have only jigsaw puzzles?


Well, Nathanael. The solution is to register as a member, for Pete's sake. Guest posting is intended for the occasional or first-time user, not someone like yourself who posts every single day. Sign up, or else take what you can get -- the current solution is working wonders for our spam management.


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2012)

Henry Kisor said:


> I am geezer and my fine motor skills are fading, so assembling those damn trumpets and oranges and whatnot with a mouse can be a bit of a challenge, but the scheme DOES work better than captcha, which is not barring spammers from my blogs very well anymore.


Henry,

You are actually a registered member here; so if you sign in then you don't have to worry about putting together a trumpet. If you're having trouble signing into your account or have forgotten your password, please let me know and I can help you out.


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## Williamn (Nov 8, 2012)

I have to admit I haven't read the whole of this thread but just to throw in that in the UK pets are carried on all trains aside from Eurostar. Even sleeper trains - on payment of a hefty cleaning fee. I've never found it to be a problem


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## TraneMan (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm a pet lover, but to me, they stay home!

I would not want a dog next to me making noise or in the way.

At our last family reunion, seems like everyone who had pets brought them, ugh! Dad wasn't happy with the gifts that the dogs left behind....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 9, 2012)

TraneMan said:


> I'm a pet lover, but to me, they stay home!
> 
> I would not want a dog next to me making noise or in the way.
> 
> At our last family reunion, seems like everyone who had pets brought them, ugh! Dad wasn't happy with the gifts that the dogs left behind....


Totally agree!


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## zepherdude (Nov 9, 2012)

Have seen lots of pros and no's. I have to be a no. That was a cute picture above with the doggie in the car, but unless its a short trip, where will he do his business? How will he walk? Pet porters are not the answer and certainly going to care for them in the baggage car is not an option. I see pets now everywhere, grocery stores, shopping malls and even in the drivers seat. I board my dog in a kennel when I am out of town, she does not like it, neither do I, but life will go on. Years ago, my mom insisted she take a small dog on a trip to a friends house. I resisted, she insisted. There were cats in the house. She won and and upon arrival a cat jumped out of our host arms, scratched her face, drawing blood, I had to take her to the hospital in a chilly trip and the eventual end of a friendship. What can I say, my pet is not your pet. I agree "No pets on the train". One rule must apply.


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## stntylr (Nov 9, 2012)

The dog in the picture rode from Tucson to Austin. He took a break at every smoke break.


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## calwatch (Nov 10, 2012)

Well I did have the girl with a python riding from Lafayette to San Antonio on the Sunset Limited. She tucked it under her shirt and in her jacket. No one noticed and she hid it when Amtrak staff was coming around.


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## maxtheax (Nov 10, 2012)

I believe that the Amtrak policy is too rigid. I can see excluding animals from the coaches but if a passenger wants to bring a dog or cat into a bedroom there is room for them and it should not be a problem. A dog can be walked at any of the stations with extended stops while a portable throw-a-way litter box can be put out for a cat. Like many hotels do, Amtrak can charge an extra $10 or $15 a night for the extra cleaning required to remove any pet hairs or dander and also charge the passenger for any damage to the room caused by their pet. It's doable but unlikely to happen.


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## AlanB (Nov 10, 2012)

maxtheax said:


> I believe that the Amtrak policy is too rigid. I can see excluding animals from the coaches but if a passenger wants to bring a dog or cat into a bedroom there is room for them and it should not be a problem. A dog can be walked at any of the stations with extended stops while a portable throw-a-way litter box can be put out for a cat. Like many hotels do, Amtrak can charge an extra $10 or $15 a night for the extra cleaning required to remove any pet hairs or dander and also charge the passenger for any damage to the room caused by their pet. It's doable but unlikely to happen.


Of course the problem is that many times there isn't enough time to do an extra cleaning at the end of the run. And if someone say buys a ticket from Chicago to Denver with a pet, then there is not only no time to clean the room properly for someone boarding into that room, much less time to do the extra cleaning that a pet would require.


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## Nathanael (Nov 10, 2012)

calwatch said:


> Well I did have the girl with a python riding from Lafayette to San Antonio on the Sunset Limited. She tucked it under her shirt and in her jacket. No one noticed and she hid it when Amtrak staff was coming around.


Awww! In general, pet snakes are far better behaved than cats and dogs, though if they get loose they can get lost or injured very easily, so it would really be better if there were an official way to carry them in a pet carrier. Sigh.


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## dlagrua (Nov 10, 2012)

AlanB said:


> maxtheax said:
> 
> 
> > I believe that the Amtrak policy is too rigid. I can see excluding animals from the coaches but if a passenger wants to bring a dog or cat into a bedroom there is room for them and it should not be a problem. A dog can be walked at any of the stations with extended stops while a portable throw-a-way litter box can be put out for a cat. Like many hotels do, Amtrak can charge an extra $10 or $15 a night for the extra cleaning required to remove any pet hairs or dander and also charge the passenger for any damage to the room caused by their pet. It's doable but unlikely to happen.
> ...


Alan: Your logic makes perfect sense and you may have hit on the reason. Unlikely to happen probably says it best but if there is one train that could use a pet car it would have to be the Autotrain. Much or perhaps most of the passenger traffic on this train are senior snowbirds that are dual residents of Florida and the NE (or even Canada). The snowbirds are not the typical Amtrak recreational travelers like many of us here, but people who move their residences twice a year. It would be nice to accommodate them and their pets in the bedrooms. Many of these folks are in their 70's and 80's and because of their pets they are excluded from the train and have to take the long drive in their car. The Autotrain is stationed for 4-5 hours between departures so there should be time for the extra cleaning but a future plan to include a kennel car on this train might prove a boom for business,


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## irv (Nov 15, 2012)

If you believe websites which are dog-friendly, you'll think small pets in containers are ok on MARTA.

If you believe MARTA's posted rules (and an ex-MARTA employee - me) they are not.


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## MattW (Nov 15, 2012)

irv said:


> If you believe websites which are dog-friendly, you'll think small pets in containers are ok on MARTA.
> 
> If you believe MARTA's posted rules (and an ex-MARTA employee - me) they are not.


You mean the rules posted on the MARTA website here? http://itsmarta.com/how-to-ride-marta.aspx?terms=pets#pets


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## Wildcat (Nov 16, 2012)

Neither the Chicago Metra (rail), CTA (rail and bus) nor Pace (bus) allows pets on board. Service animals, of course, but they mean real service animals, not "comfort" animals. No cages, no portable kennels. Just the way it should be.


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## Nathanael (Nov 17, 2012)

Wildcat said:


> Neither the Chicago Metra (rail), CTA (rail and bus) nor Pace (bus) allows pets on board. Service animals, of course, but they mean real service animals, not "comfort" animals. No cages, no portable kennels. Just the way it should be.


Flatly false. 10 seconds googling:

"Only small pets in protective carriers are allowed on CTA buses and trains. Carriers cannot take up seats, seating areas or obstruct pathways on buses, trains or in stations and must be able to be carried on by a single person.

To ensure the comfort of others, animals in carriers need to behave in such a way that does not disturb others."


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## Nathanael (Nov 17, 2012)

You are correct that Metra maintains the same blanket prohibition as Amtrak. So you've found the second rail provider IN THE ENTIRE WORLD who completely bans pets. I wonder if the prohibitions came from the same people.

CTA policy (pets in carriers only) is typical of public transportation, worldwide, and an entirely reasonable policy.

Intercity rail usually has the "pets in carriers only" restriction, and frequently has some additional restrictions (bedroom only in some places -- coach only in some places -- baggage car only in some places). Blanket prohibitions are pretty nearly unheard of, however.


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## Henry Kisor (Nov 17, 2012)

We have only ourselves to blame for Amtrak's no-pets policy: we have allowed ourselves to become the most litigious country in the world. Of course Amtrak will cite reasons such as no kennel cars because of the possibility of overheating during the summer or freezing during the winter, but the real cause of the policy is the likelihood of expensive litigation if something untoward happens. If a dog looks cross-eyed at a kid, causing him to break out in tears, chances are that the mama will lawyer up and claim the incident caused grievous emotional damage. There is no use suggesting Amtrak adopt European railroads' "sensible" pet policies, not when we are a nation of hungry personal-injury attorneys.


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## AmtrakBlue (Nov 17, 2012)

Henry Kisor said:


> We have only ourselves to blame for Amtrak's no-pets policy: we have allowed ourselves to become the most litigious country in the world. Of course Amtrak will cite reasons such as no kennel cars because of the possibility of overheating during the summer or freezing during the winter, but the real cause of the policy is the likelihood of expensive litigation if something untoward happens. If a dog looks cross-eyed at a kid, causing him to break out in tears, chances are that the mama will lawyer up and claim the incident caused grievous emotional damage. There is no use suggesting Amtrak adopt European railroads' "sensible" pet policies, not when we are a nation of hungry personal-injury attorneys.


**AGREE**


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## Shanghai (Nov 17, 2012)

Henry Kisor said:


> We have only ourselves to blame for Amtrak's no-pets policy: we have allowed ourselves to become the most litigious country in the world. Of course Amtrak will cite reasons such as no kennel cars because of the possibility of overheating during the summer or freezing during the winter, but the real cause of the policy is the likelihood of expensive litigation if something untoward happens. If a dog looks cross-eyed at a kid, causing him to break out in tears, chances are that the mama will lawyer up and claim the incident caused grievous emotional damage. There is no use suggesting *Amtrak adopt European railroads' "sensible" pet policies*, not when we are a nation of hungry personal-injury attorneys.


I agree. We lived in Europe (France & the Netherlands) for five years and had a small dog. On small day trips, we took the dog,

but on longer or overnight trips we did not take the dog. Europe is much better equipped for pets than the US. Most hotels,

restaurants and public places had accommodations for pets. We were able to take our dog to church, in a proper carrier.

The New Jersey Transit and Long Island trains permit pets if they are in a proper carrier. Most of the time, the conductors

ask is they can pet Archie and tell me about their dog or cat in a very friendly tone.

I would not think of taking Archie on a long distance train as there are not facilities for pets and I know there may be

people with allergies nearby.


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## guest (Nov 17, 2012)

Nevertheless, the situation aboard Amtrak is NOT the same as on European railroads. You can cross entire countries in Europe in the same time it takes Amtrak to get between two station stops (SL in Texas, for example). And frankly, splitting my time between the US and Germany, I have to say that animals in public are held to a FAR higher standard in Europe in terms of what kind of behavior is acceptable. Same with children...


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## Shanghai (Nov 17, 2012)

guest said:


> Nevertheless, the situation aboard Amtrak is NOT the same as on European railroads. You can cross entire countries in Europe in the same time it takes Amtrak to get between two station stops (SL in Texas, for example). And frankly, splitting my time between the US and Germany, I have to say that animals in public are held to a FAR higher standard in Europe in terms of what kind of behavior is acceptable. Same with children...


*I agree with everything you said, particularly the behavior of pets and children!!*


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## jebr (Nov 17, 2012)

guest said:


> Nevertheless, the situation aboard Amtrak is NOT the same as on European railroads. You can cross entire countries in Europe in the same time it takes Amtrak to get between two station stops (SL in Texas, for example). And frankly, splitting my time between the US and Germany, I have to say that animals in public are held to a FAR higher standard in Europe in terms of what kind of behavior is acceptable. Same with children...


The length of routes is probably the biggest reason for the ban. If rail had mainly day trips, then it would make more sense. Perhaps allowing pets on corridor/NEC trains would be a decent middle ground.


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## Nathanael (Nov 17, 2012)

guest said:


> And frankly, splitting my time between the US and Germany, I have to say that animals in public are held to a FAR higher standard in Europe in terms of what kind of behavior is acceptable.


Oh good grief yes. Note that most of the public transportation policies in the US have these specific comments about "your animal had better not be obnoxious"? This is "taken for granted" in Europe AFAICT.


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## Stefanie Weiss (Apr 21, 2013)

I am desperately allergic to perfume, but there is no law against people who are overly perfumed on Amtrak, at the airport, on buses, etc. I have to suffer through it, hives and all, so the "allergy" thing is complete bunk. That's not a good enough reason not to have pets on trains. There can be separate cars, ventilation, etc.

People who need to travel with animals should be required to pay a fee and keep the animals in a sleeper car, roomette, etc. For a gov't subsidized railroad that's bleeding money, it seems quite logical that charging $100 a pop for pets would be a very good thing indeed for Amtrak. I'd love to take the Crescent to New Orleans from New York with my cat, but I basically have no options because I don't want to put her through the stress of flying. Having her in a comfortable sleeper room on an Amtrak would be perfect. It's a serious disappointment and from what I've read online there are thousands that would be happy to pay extra fees to take their pets aboard Amtrak. Please, whoever is in charge -- consider the benefits of this and the amazing PR that you could get if you implemented a pro-pet policy. Perhaps only in one car per train, on a limited basis -- but imagine how much revenue this would create.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 21, 2013)

There's no risk of perfume getting loose on the train.

There's no risk of perfume biting someone.

I won't compare the smells as I might prefer pet smells to some perfumes I've smelled.


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## June the Coach Rider (Apr 21, 2013)

Ernest said:


> I want to go from Richmond, VA to Washington, DC, and Amtrak seemed at first a good way to go. Problem is Amtrak has a strict No Pets policy--not in even in hard sided carriers. Virtually ALL other rail transit companies I could find allow pet transit in some form or manner, including NYC, VRE, Boston, San Francisco, LA, Atlanta, Chicago--other transit systems that I've tried, so this discovery became a good reason to complain.
> Here is the response provided Amtrak customer service in a reply e-mail:
> 
> _While we certainly understand your wish to bring your pet on board Amtrak, we are not able to accommodate animals other than service animals for people with disabilities._
> ...


I have had pets all my life, I would never think of taking a pet on a train even for a short trip. I believe the sounds, sight and crowds on a train would be very scary for an animal and even though I would love to have my cats with me, I would never expect others to want them on a train for several hours.

My pets are like kids to me, so I think about their feelings and how they would be affected by having to travel in the baggage car of a train, you cannot expect everyone in coach from being ok with a barking dog on the train. Plus why should someone have to deal with allergy issues just because you want your pet with you on the train. Sorry, I love my pets, but this attitude just amazes me.


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## sunchaser (Apr 21, 2013)

Guest_Stefanie Weiss_*, This Forum is not run by Amtrak.

You could call Amtrak and let them know your opinions @ 1 800 872 7245.

I think it is highly unlikely that Amtrak would allow pets on trains right now.

As much as I would enjoy taking a pet with me, I also realize it may not be fun for the pet or those around

me.It also would be no fun to use a sleeper room after a dog or cat has been there and it hasn't been

cleaned well.

Not just the usual stuff, but what about the fur for those who are allergic?

AmtrakBlue, I agree with you on these issues too.

Just like many don't like or are allergic to cigarette smoke, those that do are not allowed to smoke on the

train for the comfort (and health) of others.


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## June the Coach Rider (Apr 21, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I don't want somebody coming on board a train with a pet, making noises, shedding hair/fur, relieving oneself, amd generally disturbing other passengers. You take about a hard kennel, well they could still cause problems for the crew and there's no designated place to put it. If put with the baggage, the pet might stink up all the baggage.


I have to agree, not only is there issues with the shedding fur which can cause allergic reactions, but during the colder weather, the baggage car is not heated. the pet would freeze, now you want them to spend more money to put heat in the baggage car just for your pet. I would then have to pay more for my tickets to pay for the upgrade of the baggage car. I love my pets, but they are my pets and I don't push them on others who are on the train or anywhere for that matter.


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## battalion51 (Apr 21, 2013)

> The length of routes is probably the biggest reason for the ban. If rail had mainly day trips, then it would make more sense. Perhaps allowing pets on corridor/NEC trains would be a decent middle ground.


I think this is pretty close to hitting the nail on the head. Most flights are short enough that a pet won't need to be relieved en route, same goes for commuter trains/transit. However, the same is not true on long distance trains. At some point in a trip between NYP and MIA (for example) if not several times, the pet will need to be relieved. Sure they could theoretically be relieved at smoke stops, but the Conductors can (and will) get rid of smoke stops when the train is running late. Take for example train 91 of 04/01. This train is scheduled to stop in SAV for five minutes and it is designated as a smoke stop. However, the train got late and they made the stop in three minutes and I guarantee you there were no smokers allowed off. If you throw pets in the mix I can hear it now, "You're going to not let this poor helpless animal use the bathroom?" Let alone as others have said issues with passengers who are allergic or animals who don't behave. Amtrak has enough issues as is, why make it harder for Conductors and OBS personnel who already have a lot on their plate?


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## MattW (Apr 21, 2013)

battalion51 said:


> > The length of routes is probably the biggest reason for the ban. If rail had mainly day trips, then it would make more sense. Perhaps allowing pets on corridor/NEC trains would be a decent middle ground.
> 
> 
> I think this is pretty close to hitting the nail on the head. Most flights are short enough that a pet won't need to be relieved en route, same goes for commuter trains/transit. However, the same is not true on long distance trains. At some point in a trip between NYP and MIA (for example) if not several times, the pet will need to be relieved. Sure they could theoretically be relieved at smoke stops, but the Conductors can (and will) get rid of smoke stops when the train is running late. Take for example train 91 of 04/01. This train is scheduled to stop in SAV for five minutes and it is designated as a smoke stop. However, the train got late and they made the stop in three minutes and I guarantee you there were no smokers allowed off. If you throw pets in the mix I can hear it now, "You're going to not let this poor helpless animal use the bathroom?" Let alone as others have said issues with passengers who are allergic or animals who don't behave. Amtrak has enough issues as is, why make it harder for Conductors and OBS personnel who already have a lot on their plate?


Well make it simple then. Adopt similar requirements that unaccompanied minors currently have to suffer under. They're only allowed on daylight runs. So to allow pets, limit them to maybe 6 hour trips. That'd put most of the NEC spine within reach of most other stations of the NEC. About the only major stations pets couldn't reach would be Boston from south of Philadelphia, and vice versa.


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## sunchaser (Apr 21, 2013)

MattW said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > > The length of routes is probably the biggest reason for the ban. If rail had mainly day trips, then it would make more sense. Perhaps allowing pets on corridor/NEC trains would be a decent middle ground.
> ...


*This would not solve the pet hair/fur/feather? issue. What about 'unruly' pets-too noisy/aggressive etc. Would you kick the passenger and their pet off the train, and why? Would the cleaning of day trains have to be changed? If it would take longer to clean the trains, then would that not affect the schedule of the trains? Also, would you limit pets only to cats and dogs? *


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## MattW (Apr 21, 2013)

sunchaser said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > battalion51 said:
> ...


Well what do the commuter and transit trains that allow pets do?


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## sunchaser (Apr 21, 2013)

MattW said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > MattW said:
> ...


*Good question. The ones here do not allow pets at all. They must be service animals only.*


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## AmtrakWPK (Apr 22, 2013)

You could tell your pet it is a cellphone call away from the taxidermist....?.... (yes, that was a joke, not a serious comment.) But.....Our piano technician is violently allergic to cats dander. He can,and has,gone into *anaphylactic shock* *(potentially lethal; if not IMMEDIATELY treated ---> from WikiPedia: "*a serious allergic reaction that is rapid in onset and may cause death, It typically causes a number of symptoms including an itchy rash, throat swelling, and low blood pressure. Common causes include insect bites/stings, foods, and medications".*.*

The piano tech carries an "epi-pen", medical kit which lets him immediately inject himself with epinephrine (adrenaline), and the kit also includes potent chewable antihistamine pills that don't require water to take swallow. If you are violently allergic to anything, having that epi-pen kit could literally save your life. Many people, both adults and children, have lethal food allergies,requiring them to read every ingredient of any food they purchase, . Many people are also violently allergic to bee stings and fire ant bites, both of which are of the "hymenoptera" line of venomous insects. I discovered the hard way that Iwas allergic to bee stings, so I am very familiar with the subject. Wendy and I have two Parrots,- an African Grey and an Alexandrine Ringneck, and I would NEVER want to take them on any public transportation. With me, the Grey is completely docile and friendly, but with strangers he would draw blood on the first appendage they got too close to him. The potential physical harm (or even possible death to other passengers, (and also, likely, loud noises) just isn't worth the risk. So unless it is a properly trained, genuine service animal, I would NOT want it on board the passenger accomodations area of.a long-distance train,airplane,etc.


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## sunchaser (Apr 22, 2013)

AmtrakWPK said:


> You could tell your pet it is a cellphone call away from the taxidermist....?.... (yes, that was a joke, not a serious comment.) But.....Our piano technician is violently allergic to cats dander. He can,and has,gone into *anaphylactic shock* *(potentially lethal; if not IMMEDIATELY treated ---> from WikiPedia: "*a serious allergic reaction that is rapid in onset and may cause death, It typically causes a number of symptoms including an itchy rash, throat swelling, and low blood pressure. Common causes include insect bites/stings, foods, and medications".*.*The piano tech carries an "epi-pen", medical kit which lets him immediately inject himself with epinephrine (adrenaline), and the kit also includes potent chewable antihistamine pills that don't require water to take swallow. If you are violently allergic to anything, having that epi-pen kit could literally save your life. Many people, both adults and children, have lethal food allergies,requiring them to read every ingredient of any food they purchase, . Many people are also violently allergic to bee stings and fire ant bites, both of which are of the "hymenoptera" line of venomous insects. I discovered the hard way that Iwas allergic to bee stings, so I am very familiar with the subject. Wendy and I have two Parrots,- an African Grey and an Alexandrine Ringneck, and I would NEVER want to take them on any public transportation. With me, the Grey is completely docile and friendly, but with strangers he would draw blood on the first appendage they got too close to him. The potential physical harm (or even possible death to other passengers, (and also, likely, loud noises) just isn't worth the risk. So unless it is a properly trained, genuine service animal, I would NOT want it on board the passenger accomodations area of.a long-distance train,airplane,etc.


*I'm with you on this. We also have two parrots, a 'mini macaw' and a blue and gold macaw. They don't travel too well, and both are quite capable of a serious bite. Also they can be very very loud, and that is something that is fairly difficult to control. If they get excited or agitated, they get louder and louder, and the risk of biting goes up. As much as we enjoy them, public travel is out for them. Not just for us, but for them and those around them.*


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## June the Coach Rider (Apr 22, 2013)

We are looking at this from the human side, which is probably the easiest side to see it from, but put yourself in the pet's paws, would they understand the new smells? they remember things thru their scents. We all know that people get on trains and other public transportation while sick. Would you want your pet to be subjected to something that might hurt or harm them. I know you could get sick too, but that is your choice to travel, I am not so sure the pet can make that decision, you are making it for them.

Lastly, many of the diseases that animals have can be transmitted thru contact. Meaning that someone can walk by and pet a dog or cat somewhere before getting on the train and then pet your dog or cat on the train. Some of the diseases do not show signs on the carrier for years, so the dog or cat that was the carrier was healthy, then your pet is older and gets sick and passes away from something that you had no control over. NO way, I keep my pets at home where I know what is there.


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## the Other Mike (Apr 22, 2013)

Exactly what would be considered a "pet" ?

Allowing pets would open a whole new "can of worms"

Can you bring chickens as a pet or must they stay on the tracks ?

This dead horse that we are beating, could it be considered a "pet" ?

Good Lord, next thing someone will want to cook on a sterno stove.

This has the makings of a Marx Brothers Movie " A Day on the Train"


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## Nathanael (Apr 22, 2013)

The vast majority of trains worldwide allow pets in proper, fully enclosed carriers. There are usually further restrictions.

Very few trains allow "loose" pets.

I simply don't see why people are not allowed to take their goldfish from Boston to New Haven.


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## Nathanael (Apr 22, 2013)

UTA rule:

"Animals. Other than a Service Animal, no person shall bring a live animal into or upon a Transit Facility or Transit Vehicle, unless such person receives permission from the Operator or Authorized UTA Representative to do so. In the event such permission is granted, such animal must remain in an enclosed carry-on, not obstruct the movement of passengers or UTA employees within the Transit Facility or Transit Vehicle, and not create a nuisance or disturbance within the Transit Facility or Transit Vehicle."

In short, any UTA employee can approve your goldfish carrier for transport. Contrast Amtrak.


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## MrFSS (Apr 22, 2013)

the Other Mike said:


> Exactly what would be considered a "pet" ? Allowing pets would open a whole new "can of worms"
> 
> Can you bring chickens as a pet or must they stay on the tracks ?
> 
> ...


And, this is a year old topic recently stirred up by a guest who evidently didn't go back and look at all the previous responses where all this was discussed to death.


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## Bedford (Apr 22, 2013)

Before 1971 the railroads for decades allowed dogs in sleeping car rooms. In the 50s and 60s you would see a dog traveling this way about as often as you see "service dogs" on Amtrak now. Service dogs seem to be accepted by the rest of the passengers now the way regular dogs were back in the day. It works as long as everybody and his brother don't want to bring an animal with them. A stiff surcharge would stiffle any mass demand.


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## D.P. Roberts (Apr 23, 2013)

MrFSS said:


> And, this is a year old topic recently stirred up by a guest who evidently didn't go back and look at all the previous responses where all this was discussed to death.


Exactly! Another old thread, resurrected by someone who thinks they're submitting feedback directly to Amtrak.

I know that this forum is one of the few to allow guests to post. That probably does a lot to increase traffic, which is good. However, many of these posters vent their frustration and never return. I wonder how many of them then get mad that "Amtrak never responded" to them (perhaps they're expecting a call/e-mail from someone at Amtrak)? Perhaps the requirement to actually register would help these people see that they're not submitting official feedback.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 23, 2013)

But guests go not provide contact info, so they can't expect a response by phone/email


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## VentureForth (Apr 23, 2013)

With all the other threads that get closed for being obsolete and dead-horse-beaten, I'm suprised this one is still open.


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## Annette Engemann (Apr 25, 2013)

I clicked on this topic due to the fact we are planning on traveling from STL to CHI in August. I'd like to take my dog, (Shih Tzu) which is a small breed and not a yappy one, also a low allergy dog. This is anywhere from a 5 to 6 hour trip. I understand the days trip thing, and even six hours without a potty break for him would be pushing it. But, the last time I took Amtrack, if indeed they are worried about customers, maybe they should look into keeping the bar supplied so they don't run out of provisions 30 minutes into the trip. They had a train load of Cardinals fans going to a Cards/Cubs game in Chicago. You couldn't even get a beer after 15 minutes. So, if they are worried about customer service, maybe they should worry about customer service? The attendant on the train said he heard numerous complaints on this several times before and nothing he suggested was taken into consideration. We took the train because we hadn't before and thought it was the most responsible way to travel if we wanted to party pre-game. They missed out on a huge money maker considering they are in financial straits at this point. Not saying we wanted to get sloppy drunk either. Just to drink responsibly.


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## Ryan (Apr 25, 2013)

If setting ridership and revenue records is "financial straits", sign me up!


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## zepherdude (Apr 25, 2013)

Annette Engemann said:


> I clicked on this topic due to the fact we are planning on traveling from STL to CHI in August. I'd like to take my dog, (Shih Tzu) which is a small breed and not a yappy one, also a low allergy dog. This is anywhere from a 5 to 6 hour trip. I understand the days trip thing, and even six hours without a potty break for him would be pushing it. But, the last time I took Amtrack, if indeed they are worried about customers, maybe they should look into keeping the bar supplied so they don't run out of provisions 30 minutes into the trip. They had a train load of Cardinals fans going to a Cards/Cubs game in Chicago. You couldn't even get a beer after 15 minutes. So, if they are worried about customer service, maybe they should worry about customer service? The attendant on the train said he heard numerous complaints on this several times before and nothing he suggested was taken into consideration. We took the train because we hadn't before and thought it was the most responsible way to travel if we wanted to party pre-game. They missed out on a huge money maker considering they are in financial straits at this point. Not saying we wanted to get sloppy drunk either. Just to drink responsibly.


Since most beverage items are stocked by a control list for a particular train and destination, I can only think that the Lead Attendant did know know such a group of Cardinal fans were going. This would have to come from reservations and even they might not have known who is who. I have no idea how Amtrak stocks food and beverage so I offer this as one reason the train ran out of provisions. Even with increased amounts, who is to say that would even be enough. While the snack bar sells liquor beer and wine, it is not a bar per say. I have been on many trains and planes, due to delays or whatever that have run out of stuff. I suspect it has nothing to do with customer service, but when your out of Bud your out of beer and out is out.


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## jsreeves (Apr 25, 2013)

A train full of Cardinals fans going to a Cardinal/Cubs game?

15 minutes sounds like a pretty good cutoff time to me!

Besides, they would never have enough room to stock enough beer for that trip!


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 25, 2013)

Plus, the train is a mode of transportation, not a traveling bar.


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## SubwayNut (Apr 25, 2013)

I was just reading up about the new CapeFlyer, train service to Cape Cod is now back for this summer (Friday to Sunday trips), now operated by the MBTA instead of Amtrak from Boston to Hyannis. It advertises the fact it has wifi, accepts bikes, and Pets Welcome.

Something to add this long discussion.


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## JayPea (Apr 25, 2013)

If it were a group of Cubs fans going to St. Louis, I'd understand if the bar were stocked to the gills. It's very hard to watch the Flubs Cubs while sober. :lol:


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## henryj (Apr 25, 2013)

amamba said:


> 'RRUserious' said:
> 
> 
> > People around my neighborhood walk their dogs by my yard and they stop unpredictably to crap on my lawn. How can any pet owner predict when a dog needs to take a dump, and how can the owner prevent it happening in the carrier. And then what prevents that from stinking up the whole car till the owner's stop? Dogs in passenger compartments just seem like a bad idea, not that I expect their owners to volunteer the bad aspects.
> ...


LOL, my dog will poop in any neighbors yard if they are present. It's so embarrassing I deliberately avoid any yard where the person is out in the yard. On this subject, Amtrak has the correct idea. Just don't deal with it at all. I rode the Alaska RR winter train one March and this lady got on with a huge Malamute or Husky. It was well behaved, but scary it was so big. The winter train stops at some points to pick up dog sled teams that went out for the weekend. They ride in the baggage car. Alaska is unique. I don't know if they allow pets on the summer tourist trains. I never saw any.


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## lthanlon (Apr 26, 2013)

Why not require that people wishing to bring animals aboard produce some sort of official document or card to prove their companion isn't merely a pet? Amtrak's present policy clearly encourages abuse by passengers with acting skills.


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## FriskyFL (Apr 26, 2013)

lthanlon said:


> Why not require that people wishing to bring animals aboard produce some sort of official document or card to prove their companion isn't merely a pet? Amtrak's present policy clearly encourages abuse by passengers with acting skills.


That would be a clear violation of the ADA.

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Quote:

_"When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task."_


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## Peter KG6LSE (Apr 26, 2013)

The ADA is Very clear !

I rather accept ( as some one whom is disabled ) that a few people work the system then burden those whom need the service animals for legit reasons ..


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## George Harris (Apr 27, 2013)

FriskyFL said:


> http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
> Quote:
> 
> _"When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task."_


And this provision is the major problem with the law. It encourages abuse. It would seem very reasonable to require documentation. After all, and honest answer to "What work or task has then dog been trained to perform?" has the nature of the disability packaged with it. (Does the law really say "dog"? Could it not be some other animal? )

I really can't imagine why the genius that thought this up considered this provision necessary.

We have way too many people getting an undeserved free ride on the system that are getting in the way of those that honestly need the benefits in it.


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## KWBud (Apr 27, 2013)

George Harris said:


> And this provision is the major problem with the law. It encourages abuse. It would seem very reasonable to require documentation.


There are already "documentation mills" out there that will provide not only official papers, but also special harnesses and capes with logos that declare any dog a service animal. Anyone with a few dollars can purchase them for their pet.

So, unless the federal government wants to register and license service animals, requiring documentation is probably a lost cause.



George Harris said:


> After all, and honest answer to "What work or task has then dog been trained to perform?" has the nature of the disability packaged with it. (Does the law really say "dog"? Could it not be some other animal? )


The answer could be vague and still legal. "This dog alerts to a mental condition and provides protection during episodes."

Most pet dogs don't meet the behavior standards for working animals and that is one of the methods that can be used to determine whether the animal is indeed a service animal or not.

As for the word "dog" in the law, it is probably there for good reason. There are only two kinds of animals that qualify as service animals, dogs and horses.

One other point I would like to make is for those who make blanket statements about dogs. Dogs shouldn't be in this or that environment, for instance.

Dogs have individual personalities. Additionally they get differing levels of training. Some dogs may love environments that would surprise most people. Virtually all well trained dogs should be able to thrive in any environment where humans congregate. This includes everywhere from a wild New Year's Eve party to harsh physical environments.

--

Bud


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## Peter KG6LSE (Apr 27, 2013)

> There are already "documentation mills" out there that will provide not only official papers, but also special harnesses and capes with logos that declare any dog a service animal. Anyone with a few dollars can purchase them for their pet.
> 
> So, unless the federal government wants to register and license service animals, requiring documentation is probably a lost cause.


Amen !



> It would seem very reasonable to require documentation.


Yes it would to some people whom have a MD that they can see easy . and have the $$ for the visits .

Papers Please .......

so I need to tell every person whom questions me that I have aspergers and I cant write or drive or do math in my Head I have nuropathy and cant feel my feet some days .. ..

unless you are gonna follow HIPPA , the person asking can kiss my cabbose


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## TheChief (Apr 27, 2013)

I worked for Amtrak in on-board services in the 70's when pets were (for a short time) allowed in the passenger cars, and they were a complete disaster.

A couple of examples: 1) Woman in the sleepers puts a little dog down on the platform in Las Vegas, NM, and it immediately takes off, never to be seen again. Local police and animal control are called, delaying the train. The woman is understandably distraught. 2) Cat in the downstairs baggage area in a crate (in a former Santa Fe hi-level coach) howls and cries all night, keeping the passengers awake. The next morning, the owner tries to comfort the cat by putting articles of clothing in the crate. Next thing I find is the owner trying to dry out feces-covered clothes in the downstairs hallway by hanging them on the baggage shelves. Cat continues to howl and cry. 3) Working the Empire Builder in a sleeper, I had a guy get on (I think) at Belton with two dogs as big as he was, going to Chicago. Riding in a rommette, the dogs were miserable and made noise and the owner, cramped in the room, let the dogs roam the aisles and he ended up cleaning up after them. They didn't know where they were or what the rules were. I guess it was just too long between stops, and they were uncomfortable finding a place to do their thing next to the platform. . .

I have more, but from my experience, pets have no place in the coaches or sleepers.

Good for Amtrak!


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## haolerider (Apr 27, 2013)

TheChief said:


> I worked for Amtrak in on-board services in the 70's when pets were (for a short time) allowed in the passenger cars, and they were a complete disaster.
> A couple of examples: 1) Woman in the sleepers puts a little dog down on the platform in Las Vegas, NM, and it immediately takes off, never to be seen again. Local police and animal control are called, delaying the train. The woman is understandably distraught. 2) Cat in the downstairs baggage area in a crate (in a former Santa Fe hi-level coach) howls and cries all night, keeping the passengers awake. The next morning, the owner tries to comfort the cat by putting articles of clothing in the crate. Next thing I find is the owner trying to dry out feces-covered clothes in the downstairs hallway by hanging them on the baggage shelves. Cat continues to howl and cry. 3) Working the Empire Builder in a sleeper, I had a guy get on (I think) at Belton with two dogs as big as he was, going to Chicago. Riding in a rommette, the dogs were miserable and made noise and the owner, cramped in the room, let the dogs roam the aisles and he ended up cleaning up after them. They didn't know where they were or what the rules were. I guess it was just too long between stops, and they were uncomfortable finding a place to do their thing next to the platform. . .
> 
> I have more, but from my experience, pets have no place in the coaches or sleepers.
> ...


Thanks Chief! I really think the above comments make me a believer that pets do not have any business on trains. This topic has been exhausted and in my opinion it should be closed.......but, of course that is just my opinion!


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## George Harris (Apr 28, 2013)

KWBud said:


> Dogs have individual personalities. Additionally they get differing levels of training.


Very, very true. Could also be said that they will tolerate different levels of training. We have had several dogs that have lived long lives with us, and each had a very definite personality. A couple of them could be very devious in their scheming to (successfully) outsmart us. One had a very strong protective instinct along with an innate people sense to the point that if she decided that there was someone she did not like that was all we needed to know about the person. This was not anything she was trained to do, it was just in her.


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## me_little_me (Apr 28, 2013)

Somebody should have thrown that thing off the train - then nicely dropped off the cat.



TheChief said:


> I worked for Amtrak in on-board services in the 70's when pets were (for a short time) allowed in the passenger cars, and they were a complete disaster.
> 2) Cat in the downstairs baggage area in a crate (in a former Santa Fe hi-level coach) howls and cries all night, keeping the passengers awake. The next morning, the owner tries to comfort the cat by putting articles of clothing in the crate. Next thing I find is the owner trying to dry out feces-covered clothes in the downstairs hallway by hanging them on the baggage shelves. Cat continues to howl and cry.


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## SarahZ (Apr 28, 2013)

I cannot imagine subjecting my cats to a train ride longer than a few hours. We're talking about moving to SF next summer, and I'm already worrying myself ragged trying to decide if we should take them on the three-day drive or fly them out there (in the cabin with us, *not* in cargo). Even the flight option isn't easy: going through security, waiting for the flight, flight to ORD, then waiting for the connection, then a flight to SF and a drive to our new home.

Ugh. I already feel bad for them.  They don't mind the car, so I'm leaning in that direction, but it's just so LONG.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 28, 2013)

Sorcha, I have a friend who drove from NM to DE with, I believe, 7 cats. She sedated them to make it easier on her.


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## AlanB (Apr 28, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> Ugh. I already feel bad for them.  They don't mind the car, so I'm leaning in that direction, but it's just so LONG.


Then buy or rent a shorter car for the trip. :lol:


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## SarahZ (Apr 28, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Sorcha said:
> 
> 
> > Ugh. I already feel bad for them.  They don't mind the car, so I'm leaning in that direction, but it's just so LONG.
> ...


Oh hush. 

Betty - I don't want to sedate them since they're so mellow in the car. They don't even meow or struggle when we go to the vet. They are the chillest kitties EVER. 

I was thinking about putting my back seats down, which opens up the trunk, so they have lots of open space with a disposable cat litter pan and spill-proof water and food dishes. I'm going to put some netting up along the back of the front seats so they can't get onto my lap or down near my feet while I'm driving. When we stop at rest areas, we'll take turns going in so we don't have to leave them in a hot car. My other option was to leave it running (it has A/C), lock it, and use the spare key in my purse to get back in, but I don't want to leave the car running at a rest area. Someone might get weird about that, and it might be illegal.


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## AlanB (Apr 28, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> I was thinking about putting my back seats down, which opens up the trunk, so they have lots of open space with a disposable cat litter pan and spill-proof water and food dishes. I'm going to put some netting up along the back of the front seats so they can't get onto my lap or down near my feet while I'm driving. When we stop at rest areas, we'll take turns going in so we don't have to leave them in a hot car. My other option was to leave it running (it has A/C), lock it, and use the spare key in my purse to get back in, but I don't want to leave the car running at a rest area. Someone might get weird about that, and it might be illegal.


Yeah, I wouldn't leave the car running with no one save the cats inside. Strange things can happen in rest areas, better to trade off duties and kill a few more minutes of travel time than to risk things.

Years ago, down in Florida, they had big problems with rental cars being hijacked in rest areas. So much so, that all indications of it being a rental car were ordered removed from such cars.


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## sunchaser (Apr 28, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Sorcha said:
> ...


*Sorcha, what about staying in 'pet friendly' hotels along the way? That should be less stressful for you and them. You are right that some areas are getting weird about idling cars.*


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## SarahZ (Apr 29, 2013)

Yes, we plan to stay in pet-friendly hotels. I have a list of chains, and we'll plan our schedule to allow for staying in one of those along the way. 

The current idea is to have both of us driving our vehicles. Brent has a truck, so we can put a bunch of our stuff in that, and then I'll have the Catmobile. We'll follow each other all the way there, so when we stop for gas or a rest stop, we can take turns kittysitting while the other goes inside.

Once we're at the motel, we'll let the kitties relax in the room. Brent hates the idea of stopping for two nights (he prefers to drive up to 20 hours in one day), but I said there is no way I'm going to drive while that tired and there is no way I can drive Infinity-80 for that long of a stretch without going bonkers. I'm going to bring audio books, but I am the most impatient person ever and HATE driving for more than an hour or so. That's why I like trains! ^_^


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## AlanB (Apr 29, 2013)

Sorcha,

I'm a driver, I don't mind driving long distances. Heck, I've been known to ski for 8 hours in Vermont and then get in the car and drive home for 6 hours. But still, even I wouldn't drive 20 hours straight. I understand that you've already got misgivings about doing so, but I highly recommend that you don't even think about trying it. Not only is your & your boyfriend's safety being put at risk IMHO, but I think that 20 hours in the car would also put your cats under great stress. Without regard to how well they behave in a car or not, it is still stressful to cats to not be at home in a familiar environment.

And now you're uprooting everything they know, and on top of that 20 hours in a car simply adds still more stress. I think that a more sedate trip would be best for all. Just my 2 cents.


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## KWBud (Apr 30, 2013)

I suppose that if I worked OBS, I could cherry pick three incidents about any sub-group of travelers and make them look bad.

I can't speak for any animals other than dogs since I have limited experience, but here are my thoughts about the incidents you mention.

1) The train leaves on schedule. If you bring a dog it must be under control at all times.

2) I am curious about what OBS would do about a child carrying in the same way? In any event, I doubt that it would be difficult to claim that the animal is out of control, exclude the animal en route and complete the “Passenger Incident Report.” Service animals, working dogs (and dogs that seek special treatment) should be better behaved than 90% of the people in the same situation. By the way, this is not an especially lofty goal 

3) Geez . . . Even service animals and working dogs need to be housebroken and under complete control before they ever begin training. A dog that can't do that hasn't even started the process of socialization and shouldn't be allowed any kind of special privileges.

--

Bud



TheChief said:


> I worked for Amtrak in on-board services in the 70's when pets were (for a short time) allowed in the passenger cars, and they were a complete disaster.
> A couple of examples: 1) Woman in the sleepers puts a little dog down on the platform in Las Vegas, NM, and it immediately takes off, never to be seen again. Local police and animal control are called, delaying the train. The woman is understandably distraught. 2) Cat in the downstairs baggage area in a crate (in a former Santa Fe hi-level coach) howls and cries all night, keeping the passengers awake. The next morning, the owner tries to comfort the cat by putting articles of clothing in the crate. Next thing I find is the owner trying to dry out feces-covered clothes in the downstairs hallway by hanging them on the baggage shelves. Cat continues to howl and cry. 3) Working the Empire Builder in a sleeper, I had a guy get on (I think) at Belton with two dogs as big as he was, going to Chicago. Riding in a rommette, the dogs were miserable and made noise and the owner, cramped in the room, let the dogs roam the aisles and he ended up cleaning up after them. They didn't know where they were or what the rules were. I guess it was just too long between stops, and they were uncomfortable finding a place to do their thing next to the platform. . .
> 
> I have more, but from my experience, pets have no place in the coaches or sleepers.
> ...


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## SarahZ (May 1, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Sorcha,
> I'm a driver, I don't mind driving long distances. Heck, I've been known to ski for 8 hours in Vermont and then get in the car and drive home for 6 hours. But still, even I wouldn't drive 20 hours straight. I understand that you've already got misgivings about doing so, but I highly recommend that you don't even think about trying it. Not only is your & your boyfriend's safety being put at risk IMHO, but I think that 20 hours in the car would also put your cats under great stress. Without regard to how well they behave in a car or not, it is still stressful to cats to not be at home in a familiar environment.
> 
> And now you're uprooting everything they know, and on top of that 20 hours in a car simply adds still more stress. I think that a more sedate trip would be best for all. Just my 2 cents.


Oh, maybe I wasn't clear up there. We are most certainly NOT driving 20 hours straight.  I'm the one pushing to stop after 10-12 hours, which turns it into a three-day trip. We need time to relax, take a shower, pet the kitties, sleep, and pack them up in the morning. Poor kitties. I really wish we could do it in one shot instead of putting them in the car that whole time. Every time I think about it, I lean back toward flying. At least that would all be over and done with in several hours. I'm just worried about their ears. How do you make a cat yawn?


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## Ryan (May 1, 2013)

My sisters two cats are regular travelers as she has moved around the world in the Navy. One of them has flown from Jacksonville to Hawaii, Hawaii to Baltimore and then back to Hawaii.

She got the other one in Bahrain, flew it from there to DC and then from DC to Hawaii.

Flying them halfway across the country is no big deal.  . I think that's that I would do...


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## SarahZ (May 1, 2013)

Ryan said:


> My sisters two cats are regular travelers as she has moved around the world in the Navy. One of them has flown from Jacksonville to Hawaii, Hawaii to Baltimore and then back to Hawaii.
> She got the other one in Bahrain, flew it from there to DC and then from DC to Hawaii.
> 
> Flying them halfway across the country is no big deal.  . I think that's that I would do...


Thanks, Ryan. That makes me feel a lot better.  They actually really like their carriers. Sherlock hangs out in his.  We'll also pick a late-night flight in the middle of the week to try to avoid crowds. Going through security with them is going to be... interesting.


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## Ryan (May 1, 2013)

I think that you mentioned that they would be in the cabin with you, each of those flights the pets have flown unaccmpanied in the hold without any issues. They get dropped off at the baggage office, so security isn't a consideration.

For example, when I just shipped them back out to my sister in HI (her and her husband just moved back out there), I just dropped them off at BWI. They got routed through ORD and then she picked them up at the airport out there after the flight landed.

If you've got family or a friend that is willing to help out, you guys can head out there by whatever means you want, then once you get a place picked out and settled into have the animals sent out (I ended up with my sister's cats for about 4.5 months before they could find a place to move into, but it may be as short as a week or even a few days if you already have a place picked out).

Just another way of doing it to consider.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 1, 2013)

From what I've seen, from inside the plane, the animals are the last items loaded into the cargo hold and therefore, I assume, are the first items off.

I don't think they load them until they're ready to close the door.


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## MiRider (May 1, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > My sisters two cats are regular travelers as she has moved around the world in the Navy. One of them has flown from Jacksonville to Hawaii, Hawaii to Baltimore and then back to Hawaii.
> ...


 Please be careful with your cats,.

If you do put the cats in the baggage hold, make sure that their carriers cannot be opened or fall apart.

I followed this story for 2 months, on FB, from the beginning to its almost happy but very sad ending.

Pets escape at airports more often than we'd like know.

Jack the Cat, Lost and Then Found at J.F.K., Dies


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## amamba (May 1, 2013)

There is absolutely NO way I would ever transport a pet as baggage in the hold - unless it was an absolute last resort. I wouldn't do it for vacation. They are much safer if you can travel with them in the cabin and underneath your seat.

Every year there are animals that die in the baggage area, they get loose and get lost, etc. Just as others have pointed out the stress of traveling on a train on an animal, I would not put my beloved pet through the stress of traveling as baggage unless it was a last resort.


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## SarahZ (May 1, 2013)

No. Absolutely not. The kitties do not and will not leave our sight. They'll be in the cabin with us. I won't fly with an airline that doesn't allow that.

Additionally, we'll be moving in the summer, from the Midwest to California, so it'll probably be waaaayyy too hot. I doubt any pets would be allowed in cargo on most airlines, since they tend to deny them if the forecast reaches 85 degrees. That's pretty easy to do when you have a day that's 80 degrees with 90% humidity.  

I've found a few carriers who allow pets in the cabin for a fee. I just have to make sure Sherlock can stand up straight and turn around in an airline carrier, which is a requirement. He's a big kitty.  I'm trying to get him to sit straight up while I measure him, but he won't stand still. He wants to play with the measuring tape.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 1, 2013)

Maybe consider a pet transport company? Just a thought.


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## chakk (May 1, 2013)

It's been nearly 30 years since I traveled with a pet on an airplane, but when I did, the airlines that allowed pets in cabin had specific limits (it was one or two pets per cabin total) and these had to be reserved in advance. If you showed up for a flight with an unreserved pet and the pet slots for that flight were already booked, your pet would not fly in cabin. So, if you are planning to fly with your pet in cabin this summer, best to book as early as possible.


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## SarahZ (May 1, 2013)

chakk said:


> It's been nearly 30 years since I traveled with a pet on an airplane, but when I did, the airlines that allowed pets in cabin had specific limits (it was one or two pets per cabin total) and these had to be reserved in advance. If you showed up for a flight with an unreserved pet and the pet slots for that flight were already booked, your pet would not fly in cabin. So, if you are planning to fly with your pet in cabin this summer, best to book as early as possible.


Thanks! I did see that on a couple airlines' websites, and they even listed the number of slots available. The second we know when we're moving, I'll book the flight.

Betty - not an option. I don't want them out of my sight.  /overprotective mom


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## the Other Mike (May 2, 2013)

After reading all these posts about ####ing CATS, THANK you Amtrak for not allowing any pets aboard, now, lets work on the great unwashed.


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## SarahZ (May 2, 2013)

the Other Mike said:


> After reading all these posts about ####ing CATS, THANK you Amtrak for not allowing any pets aboard, now, lets work on the great unwashed.


Hey. This topic is super old and had been beating a dead horse for a while. It was time to devolve into friendly chatter.


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## MiRider (May 2, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> the Other Mike said:
> 
> 
> > After reading all these posts about ####ing CATS, THANK you Amtrak for not allowing any pets aboard, now, lets work on the great unwashed.
> ...


Stirring the pot a little....

'The great unwashed' isn't friendly chatter in my book - I assume this means coach pax.

Having taken my last 6 trips (since Jan.) in sleepers, there is a lot of 'great unwashed' spillover in accommodations if you ask me.

I haven't written my trip report yet but on the EB, the drunk Williston worker who wasn't put under control until 2am by 2 conductors and then, he was just told to be quiet - that dude DID NOT know how to sing. 

Then the tall dude with a pony tail (I do like that look on the right guy, btw) who wore a long skirt the whole way (I do NOT like that look on any guy, btw). 

Not exactly a 'first class' experience for me. :giggle:


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## Shanghai (May 2, 2013)

*My dog is cleaner than many people!! He is a Washed Dog!!*


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## SarahZ (May 2, 2013)

Joanie - by "friendly chatter", I meant the bits about cats. I was defending my off-topic posts.


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## MiRider (May 2, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> Joanie - by "friendly chatter", I meant the bits about cats. I was defending my off-topic posts.


You don't have to defend your off-topic posts and definitely not to me, that's one of the reasons I come here.

Your chatter is always friendly and welcome too. 

This ancient topic turned into a fun conversation with some good information thrown in too.

On a serious note though, I really hate that 'unwashed etc.' term when some refer to coach pax.

Now, on an even more serious note....

MOAR CATZ on trains or not!

or... how about a cat with his own station and train?

Tama the cat and the Cat Train! :giggle:


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## jimhudson (May 2, 2013)

Hey Now! That's an Idea, the Pets can have their Own Train and Humans will be Banned! :giggle:


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## sunchaser (May 2, 2013)

*That was wild! I didn't see any kitties though!* 



JoanieB said:


> Sorcha said:
> 
> 
> > Joanie - by "friendly chatter", I meant the bits about cats. I was defending my off-topic posts.
> ...


That was wild! But I didn't see any real kitties!


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## SarahZ (May 2, 2013)

For what it's worth, I'd be okay with pets on trains, even though I'm allergic to dogs. I just don't see how it's feasible or how it could be comfortable for the animals, especially if you had a bunch. I suppose they could do it like the airlines do, with a set number of pets allowed per train. Say, two in each Coach car and two in each sleeper car. But then you'd have to adjust the schedules so the dogs would have potty/walk breaks, and the cats would have to stay on a leash and harness or in their crate, which really sucks when it's a long trip. Plus, I have no idea how we'd have room for me, my boyfriend, two cats, a litter pan, their crates, food bowl, and water bowl in a roomette.  And in Coach? No way. I know they have absorbent padding for carriers and little travel dishes for their crates, but there's just no way I could do that to them. Flights are only several hours (or 12-ish if overseas), but trains can be 2-3 days.


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## Dan O (May 2, 2013)

Sorcha said:


> No. Absolutely not. The kitties do not and will not leave our sight. They'll be in the cabin with us. I won't fly with an airline that doesn't allow that.
> Additionally, we'll be moving in the summer, from the Midwest to California, so it'll probably be waaaayyy too hot. I doubt any pets would be allowed in cargo on most airlines, since they tend to deny them if the forecast reaches 85 degrees. That's pretty easy to do when you have a day that's 80 degrees with 90% humidity.
> 
> I've found a few carriers who allow pets in the cabin for a fee. I just have to make sure Sherlock can stand up straight and turn around in an airline carrier, which is a requirement. He's a big kitty.  I'm trying to get him to sit straight up while I measure him, but he won't stand still. He wants to play with the measuring tape.


Cute cat. We used to have a friendly one that was more like a dog when it came to socializing w/ people. The current one is a plain killer. Rodents and birds enter our yard at their own risk and many don't make it out alive.

Dan


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## Curious (May 13, 2013)

In the 70's, Amtrak allowed pets on their trains if you purchased a roomette. What changed?


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## D.P. Roberts (May 13, 2013)

Curious said:


> In the 70's, Amtrak allowed pets on their trains if you purchased a roomette. What changed?


I think it was their pet policy that changed. They used to allow pets onboard, and now they do not. It changed approximately 36 years ago.


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## Amtrak George (May 13, 2013)

Correct, and IIRC there was a law passed setting certain requirements for baggage cars to be climate controlled, meet standards, carry water etc. that was not accompanied by any funding. I believe Amtrak was facing complaints from passengers and cleanliness issues in the sleepers as well, so all pet carriage was discontinued.

Really, it's not practical to carry animals by train. Loads of problems, pets bothering folks, litter issues, dogs running off at rest stops,allergies, etc. etc. I'm a cat and dog owner but agree it's best not to go there. If Amtrak has extra funds lying around (ha!) the money would be more wisely spent buying engines and passenger cars.


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## D.P. Roberts (May 13, 2013)

I can see ONE scenario where Amtrak could try pet travel to see if it would work: a kennel car. NO pets in coaches or sleepers, just part of one car (like the old kids areas or arcades). You'd pay for pet passage in a kennel, just like you'd pay for a kennel at home, or a seat on a train. The pet would have to stay locked in the kennel during the trip (no trips to your sleeper). It probably wouldn't cost much to retrofit one part of a car with shelves & crates if they wanted to try it out. However, I'm pretty sure that the fees involved would be similar to a normal adult passenger ticket, & price most people out of it.


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## sunchaser (May 13, 2013)

D.P. Roberts said:


> I can see ONE scenario where Amtrak could try pet travel to see if it would work: a kennel car. NO pets in coaches or sleepers, just part of one car (like the old kids areas or arcades). You'd pay for pet passage in a kennel, just like you'd pay for a kennel at home, or a seat on a train. The pet would have to stay locked in the kennel during the trip (no trips to your sleeper). It probably wouldn't cost much to retrofit one part of a car with shelves & crates if they wanted to try it out. However, I'm pretty sure that the fees involved would be similar to a normal adult passenger ticket, & price most people out of it.


*So lets start a 'wish list'*

*1. 'Kennel Car'?'*

*2. 'Hot Tub Car'?*

*3. 'Smoking Car'?*

*I would be happy if there are enough Sleeper Cars, Dining Cars, Engines, and Baggage Cars to cover existing routes, although we can always wish for other things. *


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## chakk (May 13, 2013)

If you have a kennel car that is devoted only to non-passenger carrying, then it might work. Otherwise, the howling among multiple dogs would be a major disturbance to other passengers in that car. And still, that car would have to be heated and air conditioned, which means a standard baggage car would not qualify.


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## Nathanael (May 13, 2013)

Amtrak George said:


> Really, it's not practical to carry animals by train.


Then why does EVERY OTHER RAIL SERVICE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD allow it? Please don't talk nonsense.


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## Nathanael (May 13, 2013)

I must correct myself: Eurostar also has an arbitrary and absurd prohibition. Euroshuttle doesn't. Neither do domestic trains in the UK. Or France.

Most long-distance trains in other countries (Canada, Russia) require "kennel" travel in baggage cars. Some say "coach only", some say "sleeper only". Most short-distance trains simply allow small pets in proper hard-sided carriers.


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## Nathanael (May 13, 2013)

And people are complaining about the Eurostar policy too.

http://www.rahafharfoush.com/2012/01/eurostarpetrant/


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## sunchaser (May 13, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> And people are complaining about the Eurostar policy too.http://www.rahafharfoush.com/2012/01/eurostarpetrant/


*Here is a list of what trains allow dogs-and their restrictions.*

*http://www.pettravel.com/passports_europetrain.cfm *


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## D.P. Roberts (May 14, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> I must correct myself: Eurostar also has an arbitrary and absurd prohibition. Euroshuttle doesn't. Neither do domestic trains in the UK. Or France.
> Most long-distance trains in other countries (Canada, Russia) require "kennel" travel in baggage cars. Some say "coach only", some say "sleeper only". Most short-distance trains simply allow small pets in proper hard-sided carriers.


So, as you said, pets are not allowed on "EVERY OTHER RAIL SERVICE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD". More specifically, Sunchaser pointed out the following:



sunchaser said:


> *Here is a list of what trains allow dogs-and their restrictions.**http://www.pettravel.com/passports_europetrain.cfm *


It really sounds like each country has set its own laws, depending on the conditions and needs of that particular country. In general, they range from "not allowed" to "allowed if they're muzzled & leashed / in a carrier", with lots of provisions for travel fees, extra cleaning fees, and the needs/desires of fellow passengers. There's nothing unanimous about pets on trains - it sounds like every country and region is different.

As you said, many countries that have long distance trains (like most of the US) have kennel cars. I'm not adverse to that, and I'm sure most people wouldn't be, as long as it didn't bother them. Perhaps, if demand is increasing, it's something Amtrak could look into. However, as Sunchaser also said, Amtrak has a hard enough time obtaining & maintaining enough cars for its human passengers, let alone the pets!


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## Guest (May 14, 2013)

Honestly, I think the reason Amtrak was able to get away with a blanket prohibition for so long is that Amtrak was unpopular.

Eurostar was able to get away with its prohibition for a long time because until recently the UK basically didn't allow pets into the country (out of worries about disease).

In countries where trains are a normal mode of transportation, there is some arrangement made for common and easy-to-deal-with pets, because lots of people have pets. I believe it's solely because trains were considered marginal and unimportant in the US that Amtrak has been able to maintain a blanket prohibition.

Long-distance trains will probably continue to be considered marginal and unimportant for quite a while, so Amtrak could probably maintain the prohibition there. Short corridor trains are NOT marginal OR unimportant and that's where the prohibition is most problematic.


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## amamba (May 14, 2013)

I don't mind the idea of a kennel car, but as a dog owner, I would never use one. I don't even use a regular kennel when I go out of town. My dog stays with a dog sitter either in my home or her home when I am out of town. My dog would get too stressed out being in a kennel and I wouldn't put him through that, just as I personally wouldn't put my dog through the stress of flying as cargo on a plane. So I just don't see how a kennel car could ever be profitable on amtrak, because so many pet owners would dismiss the idea without a second thought.

The pet industry is a huge and growing industry - and there are lots of folks like me that are child-free by choice that don't hesitate to spend thousands of dollars on our pets.


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## bmorechris (May 14, 2013)

I think there are a number of issues at play, one is a varying set of rules depending on the service. Pets on corridor services could be feasible, but long distance is problematic because of possible trip length. Would there be a time limit that pets would be allowed to travel? Even on the NEC 66/67 approach a 15 hour trip time. Would there be a blanket ban on LD or would you enforce a 12 (or 8 or whatever) hour time limit? A kennel car is problematic in my view, is it a separate car? Not enough income could be made from pet handling charges to run an additional car. What about a subfleet of coaches with 1/4 of the seats removed for kennels? That would still be expensive and make matters difficult in having another car-type to worry about. I doubt there would be enough pet patronage to make up for the lost revenue from people. Size matters too, only small pets in carriers allowed? what constitutes small, it seems most NE commuter railroads allow small pets in carriers, but small is a very subjective term.

In my view it really boils down to this: Amtrak has decided not to deal with the headache of transporting pets because the cost of making policies and changes to allow them will not likely result in a net gain in income. They probably know they could very easily say small pets in carriers are allowed for runs under 8 hours or only on corridor services, but it just opens a can of worms they would rather leave closed. I do understand it much be difficult for some people who would like to travel and have to either take their pets with them or board them. We are lucky that we have numerous family and friends willing to watch our 65 lb ball of fur and energy while we go away, but many others are not that lucky. I just don't really see the policy changing anytime soon.


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## SarahZ (May 14, 2013)

amamba said:


> The pet industry is a huge and growing industry - and there are lots of folks like me that are *child-free by choice that don't hesitate to spend thousands of dollars on our pets*.


/high-five

Right there with you.


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## George Harris (May 14, 2013)

Hello, Hello!!!! Did those that are continuing to complain notice this?



Amtrak George said:


> Correct, and IIRC there was a law passed setting certain requirements for baggage cars to be climate controlled, meet standards, carry water etc. that was not accompanied by any funding. I believe Amtrak was facing complaints from passengers and cleanliness issues in the sleepers as well, so all pet carriage was discontinued.


This is what brought pet carriage to an end. It was a change in LAW.


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## D.P. Roberts (May 14, 2013)

George Harris said:


> Hello, Hello!!!! Did those that are continuing to complain notice this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that was true for baggage cars. No one, at least in this thread, is advocating for pets in a non-climate-controlled baggage car. Everyone seems to be advocating pets in the coaches and sleepers. The law wouldn't affect that.


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## crescent2 (May 14, 2013)

I have a dog-child whom I love as a true member of the family. I would love to be able to take him with me on trips, but I don't see a feasible way to do so on a long distance train. I would never let him travel in a baggage car, but even if he could travel in his small crate with me in a sleeper, he still needs to be walked periodically. (Even my most frequent traveling human friend won't travel on Amtrak because she must have more frequent smoking stops.) If I stay overnight in a hotel, I would have to find a pet-friendly one (probably possible to do). However, restaurants and many attractions don't allow pets, so what to do with him then? How much would HE actually enjoy traveling with me?

On first thought, taking a pet with you sounds wonderful, but there are multiple logistics issues that must be solved. Not saying it's impossible to solve them, but I don't see Amtrak being able to provide for pets any time soon. They have trouble getting enough funds to provide for human passengers, as already noted.

That said, leaving my dog-child is the #1 hindrance to my traveling. It is VERY difficult for me to leave him for more than a few days. I realize that sounds absurd to many, but pet lovers understand.


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## sunchaser (May 14, 2013)

crescent2 said:


> I have a dog-child whom I love as a true member of the family. I would love to be able to take him with me on trips, but I don't see a feasible way to do so on a long distance train. I would never let him travel in a baggage car, but even if he could travel in his small crate with me in a sleeper, he still needs to be walked periodically. (Even my most frequent traveling human friend won't travel on Amtrak because she must have more frequent smoking stops.) If I stay overnight in a hotel, I would have to find a pet-friendly one (probably possible to do). However, restaurants and many attractions don't allow pets, so what to do with him then? How much would HE actually enjoy traveling with me?
> On first thought, taking a pet with you sounds wonderful, but there are multiple logistics issues that must be solved. Not saying it's impossible to solve them, but I don't see Amtrak being able to provide for pets any time soon. They have trouble getting enough funds to provide for human passengers, as already noted.
> 
> That said, leaving my dog-child is the #1 hindrance to my traveling. It is VERY difficult for me to leave him for more than a few days. I realize that sounds absurd to many, but pet lovers understand.


*I agree with you, crescent2. We would face the same issues. And still, I assume that most here are discussing dogs and cats. I am talking about a very large, rather noisy parrot. Just because I may want to take my pet, doesn't mean I should, or that those around me would enjoy him being along. I understand the desire of some that feel it is a must to bring their pet, but as someone who has had many types of pets, I can say that out of all of them, including the dogs, only one very large dog would have done okay with it.*


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## Linda T (May 22, 2013)

I don't see that this has been covered here, but it appears as though there is currently a House bill to allow pets on Amtrak. H.R. 2066, the Pets on Trains Act of 2013 a news article is located at http://dcist.com/2013/05/house_members_propose_bill_allowing.php From what I can see they would not be allowed on any portion of an LD train, just on the NE Corridor and other shorter routes, but it's not perfectly clear. They're talking about a designated car for pets -- does Amtrak really have that kind of equipment lying around? I just see more headaches for Amtrak , and not a lot of advantages.


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## Ryan (May 22, 2013)

Just more Congressional micromanagement.

Think that they'll give Amtrak any extra funds to execute the mandate?

HA!


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## Linda T (May 22, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Just more Congressional micromanagement.
> Think that they'll give Amtrak any extra funds to execute the mandate?
> 
> HA!


_Of course not._ In my opinion, it's absolutely ludicrous. I *love* my pets, but they're animals and not people, and I love how when I get home after a trip how happy they are to see me and want to hear all about it while they get petted and loved.


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## the Other Mike (May 22, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Amtrak George said:
> 
> 
> > Really, it's not practical to carry animals by train.
> ...


Thats true, and look at how many of them allow passengers to ride on the roof or hanging off the sides. 

But I digress,

So, where are the animal cars used in hurricane evacuations ? The storm AFTER Katrina had box cars / reefers with AC and high speed trucks so that people with animals would evacuate. If memory serves me, the cars were blue...light blue in color and at least 2 of them on each evacuation train. I'm not suggesting that they be used but I wondered where they are stored and if they are Amtrak cars or FEMA cars......oh no, the FEMA car debate :giggle:


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## amamba (May 22, 2013)

Linda T said:


> I don't see that this has been covered here, but it appears as though there is currently a House bill to allow pets on Amtrak. H.R. 2066, the Pets on Trains Act of 2013 a news article is located at http://dcist.com/2013/05/house_members_propose_bill_allowing.php From what I can see they would not be allowed on any portion of an LD train, just on the NE Corridor and other shorter routes, but it's not perfectly clear. They're talking about a designated car for pets -- does Amtrak really have that kind of equipment lying around? I just see more headaches for Amtrak , and not a lot of advantages.


If I'm reading the article correctly, it sounds like they would just designate one coach in the consist to be the "pet car" - like the quiet car. It wouldn't require any additional equpiment or specialized equipment.

I have previously mentioned my desire to take my dog with me on the NEC. I would take him from PVD - NYP or PVD - PHL. My dog could easily last for 4-5 hours on a train without needing to go to the bathroom or anything like that. The best part is that it would enable me to travel via amtrak around the holidays when I visit my family for a week. It would be great to take another car off the highly trafficked route of 95 during that time period.


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## D.P. Roberts (May 22, 2013)

Oooh, I don't like that bill.

1) 750 miles doesn't sound like much, but could easily include overnight trips. Easily 12-14 hours or so. And what happens when the train is late? A dog has to go, and many platforms just aren't equipped for pet walking. And you can't walk a cat.

2) So, the pet car will get stinky - what happens when the dog or cat can't make it the whole 12-14 hours? Since the cages have to be in an overhead bin / shelf, that could get messy very quickly.

3) Fido or Fluffy whines constantly in the cage. I'll just take him out of the cage for a few minutes, just to calm him down. Six hours later, he's still in my lap.

4) Which car is the pet car? I'm allergic, nobody warned me about this car. I need to be moved. I just don't like pet smells, and I WANT to be moved.

5) 90 days to redo Amtrak's reservation system to accommodate all of this?


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## afigg (May 23, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Just more Congressional micromanagement.
> Think that they'll give Amtrak any extra funds to execute the mandate?
> 
> HA!


If Congress were to pass this bill, they would provide Amtrak with the same amount of funding Amtrak when it was required to allow guns to be checked as baggage. Which, of course, was none. Amtrak has to spend capital funds to buy a bunch of gun lockers.


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## AlanB (May 23, 2013)

Linda T said:


> I *love* my pets, but they're animals and not people, and I love how when I get home after a trip how happy they are to see me and want to hear all about it while they get petted and loved.


That depends on the pet, of course. Funny story, but a cat now sadly long gone that my wife & I had wasn't like that at all. She was my wife's cat prior to our marriage, and remained so afterwards. Normally I couldn't pet her for more than 30 seconds without getting bit. And if the wife left the room, the cat followed. After a day of work, the second my wife's keys jingled in the hallway, that cat made a beeline for the front door of the apartment. She couldn't have cared less when I got home.

However, when my wife went away without me, when she came home that cat was my best friend for 2 to 3 days. She would absolutely ignore my wife and would follow me if I left the room. It was quite clear that she was punishing my wife for having left her.


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## amamba (May 23, 2013)

Alan my dog does the same thing. He gets so mad if I go out of town and punishes me by hanging out with my H.


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## MattW (May 23, 2013)

My dog would do the same when I disappeared, but he'd give ALL of us the silent treatment! Me for disappearing, and my parents for letting me! However, if one of my parents disappeared for a while, it was like "oh, hi, you're back, whatever."


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## FriskyFL (May 23, 2013)




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## Nathanael (May 24, 2013)

Linda T said:


> I don't see that this has been covered here, but it appears as though there is currently a House bill to allow pets on Amtrak. H.R. 2066, the Pets on Trains Act of 2013 a news article is located at http://dcist.com/2013/05/house_members_propose_bill_allowing.php


Found the bill text. It's really extremely reasonable.

In any train which has more than one passenger car, *cats and dogs in pet kennels* would be allowed as carry-ons in *one designated car*. (So, presumably you could request not to be in that car if you are allergic.) The kennels would be required to fit in the same space as other carry-ons.

Amtrak would be *required* to charge an extra fee for carrying pets, and the fee would be required to cover at *least* the full cost of administration of the pet policy (it would be allowed to be larger). So Amtrak could charge $500 per pet if it wanted to, under this law, to cover cleaning costs.

While this would apply to all trains, only passengers who are ticketed for less-than-750-mile trips would be allowed to carry pets.

Finally, Amtrak is given an escape clause with a "where feasible" clause, so if providing a "pet car" is unfeasible for some reason (perhaps there is too much time between cleanings on the long runs), they aren't required to.

There is a second section of the bill, but it is inoperative, because it only applies if Amtrak has climate-controlled baggage cars, which Amtrak doesn't. And it specifies at the end of the bill that nothing in the bill shall be construed to require Amtrak to buy new cars or modify old cars.

This is actually approximately the policy which Amtrak should have had all along on its own. Though I would specify a ticketed TIME (in hours) rather than a ticketed DISTANCE, and make it shorter. I'd make it 6 hours, because this is Jeff Denham, and looking at his district, he wants to take his pet on the San Joaquins, which are timetabled in a bit under 6 hours end to end.

If Amtrak changes its policy on its own, maybe it can do so and avoid the blunt instrument of Congressional legislation locking in a 750 mile rule.

As for the "90 days after enactment", that's how long Amtrak has to *propose* a policy, not how long Amtrak has to *finalize* or *implement* it, so don't worry about that.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 24, 2013)

My concern with the bill is what if the only available seats when I board are in the pet car & I don't want to be in that car, especially if I'm allergic to cats or dogs. And no passengers in the non-pet cars are willing to trade places.

Guess they would need to revamp the reservation system so people can indicate they do not want to be in the pet car.


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## amamba (May 24, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> My concern with the bill is what if the only available seats when I board are in the pet car & I don't want to be in that car, especially if I'm allergic to cats or dogs. And no passengers in the non-pet cars are willing to trade places.
> Guess they would need to revamp the reservation system so people can indicate they do not want to be in the pet car.


What happens to the same passenger when they are on a plane and someone carries on a pet? Do they ask to take a later flight? It sounds to me like this policy is just implementing what airlines have been doing for years.


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## FriskyFL (May 24, 2013)

Just swell. More Congressional meddling.


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## SarahZ (May 24, 2013)

I agree about time vs. distance. 750 miles can take anywhere from nine to fifteen hours, depending on which train you're on. There is no way I'd keep my cat in a carrier for longer than six hours, let alone fifteen hours.


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## MattW (May 24, 2013)

Well, Amtrak could probably implement a time-based policy. It says on routes less than 750, does not say that the requirement must be 750 miles. To go 750 miles in 6 hours, the train would have to average 125mph...not even the Acela does that! So any route where Amtrak has imposed a time limit of at most 16 or so hours (at 45mph average speed), would be less than 750 miles and would probably fulfill the requirement of the bill. To be clear though, I agree that much longer than a single 6 hour trip would begin to push the bounds of comfort for most animals and hope that Amtrak recognizes this and sets around 6 hours as the limit.


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## Nathanael (May 24, 2013)

For the record, I am unsympathetic to people who are allergic to cats and dogs because I'm allergic to polyester fibers in the air, and nobody's going to accomodate ME by having a "no polyester" rule. People who are allergic to nuts don't get accomodated with "nut free" trains either. This isn't like cigarettes, where the vast majority of people react badly to the smoke due to the sheer number and quantity of different toxins and allergens (which is in the dozens for 'industrial' cigarettes).

I think if Amtrak gets out ahead of this and designs a 6-hour rule that Denham would probably retract his bill. Well, I hope so anyway.  But I don't know anyone at Amtrak to push my suggestion to.


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## the Other Mike (May 24, 2013)

I've seen several replies that suggest a time limit to the rule. As a smart ### I have to ask, what happens when a train is delayed, lets say it's at 7 hours, one hour over the 6 hour rule, do you start throwing dogs and cats out the door ? 

And since we already have the HOG law, what would this rule be called ? :blink:

Just wondering. Seems to me this opens a whole new "can of worms"....hey can I bring a can of pet worms ?

Ok, what about law suits about people complaining about the flea infested cars ?

I just see this as inviting trouble, which Amtrak has enough of.


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## Gingee (May 24, 2013)

I would love to bring my little dogs on a trip with me. They do travel long distances in the car with us but we do get out every couple hours. We do usually one or two train trips a year and it is sad that we have to leave them but I think they would be miserable not being able to "go out" for many hours on a train. We also do other trips that they can go with us.


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## boxcarsyix (May 25, 2013)

*Below are the requirements for in-cabin pets on one airline.*


The cat or dog must be completely inside the pet carrier and be able to stand up and move around the carrier with ease.
Pets must be secured in the pet carrier at all times while in the gate area, during boarding/deplaning, and they must remain in the carrier for the entire duration of the flight.
The under-seat dimensions are as follows:*Window Seat: 19"L x 14"W x 8.25"H*
*Middle Seat: 19"L x 19"W x 8.25"H*
*Aisle Seat: 19"L x 14"W x 8.25"H*


The animals must be harmless, not disruptive, odorless, and require no attention during flight.
There will be no more than five (5) scheduled pet carriers per scheduled flight.
*These would have to be very small pets to be able to stand in 8.25". By not disruptive, I would read quiet. If the above rules were strictly adheared to, I would have no problem with the policy*. *At least on a train, pets who are not compliant can be put off the train. Not so easy with an airplane.*


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## Nathanael (May 26, 2013)

the Other Mike said:


> I've seen several replies that suggest a time limit to the rule. As a smart ### I have to ask, what happens when a train is delayed, lets say it's at 7 hours, one hour over the 6 hour rule, do you start throwing dogs and cats out the door ?


Ticketed time, ticketed time.
Anyway, I specifically suggested 6 hours because it's clear which train the author of the bill is planning to ride.


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## amamba (May 26, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> the Other Mike said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen several replies that suggest a time limit to the rule. As a smart ### I have to ask, what happens when a train is delayed, lets say it's at 7 hours, one hour over the 6 hour rule, do you start throwing dogs and cats out the door ?
> ...


What happens when a plane is delayed on the tarmac or circling with pets inside the cabin?


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## zephyr17 (May 26, 2013)

Eventually they poop, breaking the "odorless" rule.


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## SarahZ (May 26, 2013)

You can buy pads and such to line the kennel so it absorbs liquid and smells. Most animals won't eliminate for several hours anyway, similar to leaving them home while you work and then letting them out to the yard when you get home. Additionally, when animals are nervous, they tend to avoid eliminating, eating, and drinking. Whenever I move my cats to a new home, they don't eat, drink, or use their litter for about 12 hours or more.

Since I hate doing that to them, I would never travel with them. The only time they're going to travel is when we move cross-country, and even then, we have a pretty good plan in place (finally) that will make it as easy and relaxing as possible for them.

I know dogs tend to be much better travelers, but I still wouldn't put them in a kennel in some kind of animal car for that long. That's just me, though. I'd rather take the dog in the car with me if it loves car rides (and I think most do).


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## calwatch (May 31, 2013)

Another article on the pet issue:

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pets/Pets-on-Amtrak-Federal-bill-would-ok-it.html

I would use the unaccompanied minor policy, which is daytime travel only (so the dog or cat doesn't make noises at night) and charge the same fare as a human. http://www.amtrak.com/unaccompanied-minors-policy


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## Nathanael (May 31, 2013)

amamba said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > the Other Mike said:
> ...


I recall being on a plane which was delayed in takeoff on the tarmac for SIX HOURS. Yes, with pets in the cabin. They just deal with it.


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## zepherdude (May 31, 2013)

I will share an experience on the CS on May 18, KLA-SEA. Somewhere during the trip, I noted a young lady with her dog coming from the snack car. Her buddy had saddle bags on and was a cute terrier. I remembered this never ending thread and shrugged it off. Somewhere in Washington, another young lady got on the train, this time with her brown pit bull. The conductor cautioned her to keep the dog on its leash. Both passengers got off in SEA and it looked like the pet parade passing. I expected to see turtles, geese and donkeys going by as well. I think all this discussion is a lot of hooey! Just show up with little Pansy in tow and you will get a ticket. The pets were well trained.

I will mention the pets were taking up floor space and had the train been crowded, I wonder what would have happened.


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## SarahZ (May 31, 2013)

The saddlebags make me think the terrier was some type of service dog. As for the pit bull, I have no idea. I imagine it was a service dog as well. They aren't required to wear vests or a special collar.


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## crescent2 (May 31, 2013)

I would guess these were service dogs, too.

Undoubtedly there are some pets who would make the trip just fine, but there are many who could not. Although my dog is definitely one of my "children," I understand Amtrak's policy.


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## tomfuller (May 31, 2013)

This morning I "shared" pictures on my Facebook timeline (Thomas William Fuller) of my friend Jason Earle with his dog Oreo. Oreo flew in the passenger compartment from EWR to TPA without a carrier or even a leash.

Jason is in no way handicapped. He is the founder and CEO of 1800GOTMOLD. He was hired by Anderson Cooper to go and clear an apartment so that a heart transplant infant could come home from the hospital.

Are the drug and bomb sniffing dogs brought onto trains considered "service dogs"?

In October 2001 the first dog I saw on an Amtrak train must have been an explosive sniffing dog. We went over the border into Niagara Falls Ontario and the Canadian CPB's dog found the drugs.


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## zepherdude (May 31, 2013)

The pit bull was no service puppy. This passenger needed no service provider. The sweet dog with the saddle bags followed the owner on one trip back from the snack car, leash dragging. Who was leading who? These were pets.


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## SarahZ (May 31, 2013)

zepherdude said:


> The pit bull was no service puppy. This passenger needed no service provider. The sweet dog with the saddle bags followed the owner on one trip back from the snack car, leash dragging. Who was leading who? These were pets.


Service dogs aren't just for the blind or physically handicapped. There are "seizure dogs" and other varieties that help with a host of conditions. Some autistic children/teens have service dogs to help keep them calm in crowds. Even some veterans have been working with service animals specially trained to help prevent a PTSD/anxiety attack. (It's a very cool program.)

I'm not saying these were _definitely_ service dogs, but I wouldn't want to assume they weren't and get slapped with an ADA lawsuit.


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## crescent2 (May 31, 2013)

^True. It's very difficult to say with certainty that a dog is not a service dog, especially when it's well behaved.


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## Railroad Bill (Jun 5, 2013)

Not sure if this has been mentioned but Kathleen Parker's column in our paper today is all about animals on Amtrak. She says there is pending legislation supported by both parties to allow pets on Amtrak trains for trips less than 750 miles. An interesting article found in most major newspapers. (It was in our little Times Gazette this morning).


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 5, 2013)

And some handicaps, which there are service dogs for, are "invisible".


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## WhoozOn1st (Jun 5, 2013)

Railroad Bill said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned but Kathleen Parker's column in our paper today is all about animals on Amtrak. She says there is pending legislation supported by both parties to allow pets on Amtrak trains for trips less than 750 miles. An interesting article found in most major newspapers. (It was in our little Times Gazette this morning).


It's in the Washington Post: Amtrak bill gives dogs their due ride - http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kathleen-parker-amtrak-bill-gives-dogs-their-due-ride/2013/06/04/0ba4ffb2-cd4b-11e2-8f6b-67f40e176f03_story.html

Looks like the columnist has a rat dog similar to Shanghai's.


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## City of Miami (Jun 5, 2013)

The way I read it, the proposed policy is very much more restricted than 'pets allowed on Amtrak.' I believe it specifies KENNELED, that is in a CAGE, not running about the car or train licking or pooping in the aisles; it also says at least ONE CAR, somewhat like the Quiet Car; and it says nothing about LONG DISTANCE trains, only 750 miles or less.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 5, 2013)

Railroad Bill said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned but Kathleen Parker's column in our paper today is all about animals on Amtrak. She says there is pending legislation supported by both parties to allow pets on Amtrak trains for trips less than 750 miles. An interesting article found in most major newspapers. (It was in our little Times Gazette this morning).


Guess Lots of us will have to Stop Ridng Regionals if Fido and Fluffy are going to start Ridng these Trains! <_< (Of course Pet Owners will say "Not My ____!!! They're an Angel" :giggle: Please no Hate Mail, I like Pets too! At Home where they Belong!  )


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## FriskyFL (Jun 5, 2013)

As long as the ONE CAR is a baggage car or boxcar, I'm for it. But not in my coach, not in my sleeper.


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## Ispolkom (Jun 5, 2013)

Railroad Bill said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned but Kathleen Parker's column in our paper today is all about animals on Amtrak. She says there is pending legislation supported by both parties to allow pets on Amtrak trains for trips less than 750 miles. An interesting article found in most major newspapers. (It was in our little Times Gazette this morning).


My favorite line: "and his bites, usually in defense against things that can’t be seen, are forgivably innocuous"

Permit me to doubt their innocuousness.


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## krissie (Jun 6, 2013)

airlines are already doing this. why is amtrak such a pain??? if people are willing to pay, then there should be a market for it!


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## birdie (Jun 6, 2013)

i'd sit next to a cute dog/cat than a kid (that's not my own) anyday!


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## FriskyFL (Jun 6, 2013)

A 750 mile airline trip is what, 2 hours max? A 750 mile train journey could easily take 18 hours. Someone needs to grow a brain here.


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## D.P. Roberts (Jun 6, 2013)

krissie said:


> airlines are already doing this. why is amtrak such a pain??? if people are willing to pay, then there should be a market for it!


I'd be willing to pay NOT to have pets on the train. Or, in other words, I'm less likely to take the train if I have to hear and smell other people's pets.

Travel is full of trade-offs: what annoyances am I willing to put up with, and for how long? What am I willing to spend, and what other annoyances would I put up with instead, in order to get rid of one of these things that are annoying me right now?

Airline trips are short - only a few hours. If I was on a train for two days next to a dog that howled the whole time, or a person who howled into their cell phone the whole time, I'd probably give up train travel and just go back to flying or driving.

Yes, Amtrak needs to consider the desires of those who travel with pets. But it also needs to consider the desires of everybody else on the train who does NOT want to travel with your pet.


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## me_little_me (Jun 6, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if this has been mentioned but Kathleen Parker's column in our paper today is all about animals on Amtrak. She says there is pending legislation supported by both parties to allow pets on Amtrak trains for trips less than 750 miles. An interesting article found in most major newspapers. (It was in our little Times Gazette this morning).
> ...


Big on home cooking, eh? :giggle:


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## BCL (Jun 6, 2013)

Would it be like the movie _Crimson Tide_, where the captain of a nuclear powered ballistic missile sub brings his dog on board and lets it pee anywhere it wants?


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## Linda T (Jun 6, 2013)

The mileage idea is a joke. Take for example, the Cardinal between Chicago and Clifton Forge, that's 710 miles and takes (when on time) 19 hours! When I was on the Cardinal yesterday it ran so late I never made it to CLF, I had to detrain at WSS to catch the 51 back. It was over 4.5 hours late (that would make a 710 mile trip, nearly a complete 24 hours!) That's a long time for a dog to be kenneled.

And yes, I get it. Those who want Amtrak to permit pet travel are responsible pet owners. But not everyone is, and even those who are -- how do they know how their pet will handle train travel if it's never traveled by train before? Not every pet is a good traveler. How does Amtrak handle the bad ones? I have owned dogs most all my life, I currently have two cats. I love pets, but I would never force my pets on other people.


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## aidancheddar (Jun 6, 2013)

Do you realize how bumpy Amtrak's lines can be? Couldn't even go to the bathroom straight one time. Pets will likely puke everywhere.


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## MattW (Jun 6, 2013)

I believe the text of the bill is for "less than 750" miles. Meaning Amtrak could easily set a time limit and still meet the law. At a guess, the final requirements will be small animals (limited to cats and dogs) in kennels only, between stations 6 hours or less apart, in coach only (maybe Acela business class), not in quiet cars, stored in the overhead rack (not touching a seat). They may even further limit it to corridor runs though I don't know how that would work within the law. Many other transit systems, including airlines (which don't have as great a fresh air inflow) have similar guidelines as above and seem to have no problems. Metro North doesn't even have size and kennel restrictions that I can find.


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## aidancheddar (Jun 6, 2013)

If they're in kennels, why put them in overhead? This goes back to the whole puking thing too. Pretty dangerous place for them too if one where all accidentally fall from to much movement of the animal and train.


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## D.P. Roberts (Jun 6, 2013)

aidancheddar said:


> If they're in kennels, why put them in overhead? This goes back to the whole puking thing too. Pretty dangerous place for them too if one where all accidentally fall from to much movement of the animal and train.


I agree.

And, unlike an airplane, most coach cars have a simple, open shelf above the seats, rather than a closed compartment. Personally, I don't want someone's pukey, long-kenneled dog or cat above my head!

Secondly, Amtrak is only _somewhat _like an airplane. Sure, train travel is a form of transportation, but Amtrak also rents out sleeping rooms for a day or more, which makes it very much like a hotel. Most hotels don't allow pets; some do, but certainly not the majority. So, the simple airline analogy just doesn't work.


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## amamba (Jun 6, 2013)

I would suggest that underneath the seat - like on a plane - would make more sense than above the seat.

I just don't thi k it's a big deal at all to carry on a kenneled pet along the NEC or other corridor service. I have yet to read any argument against it where a similar thing can and does happen on a plane trip of comparable length that allows pets in the cabin.


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## Bus Nut (Jun 7, 2013)

A) There's a big thread on rr.net about this, and while it was not USDA, there was a law passed in the late 1970's regarding ANIMAL WELFARE. These rules are for the animal's comfort and well-being. The conditions on Amtrak trains in the 70s with heritage baggage cars and long distances between stops were not deemed safe or humane. Service animals are an EXEMPTION to Amtrak's ban on carrying pets. They ride in the climate-controlled cabin with the patron. The ADA of 1990 pre-empted Amtrak and all other common carriers' rules about uncrated animals in passenger compartments due to the special needs of the blind and other disabled persons.

B) The service standards quoted could be found at any public transit agency or common carrier (such as Greyhound) in the USA. It is a translation into plain English of the current ADA regulations. Amtrak is instructing their employees to do exactly what is required by law.

C) Service animals which are not under control (leash or voice) of the person they assist can be removed from the vehicle per ADA regulations. Many persons with disabilities cannot afford the fees to get a professionally trained service animal (starts at five figures) and so attempt to get by with an inadequately trained animal. This can lead to ejection for that patron and their animal when the animal's behavior becomes a nuisance.

D) For the record, there is no scientific evidence that "seizure dogs" can detect seizures in humans. In fact, it's not clear what, if any utility they provide. (And they are a very large and expensive placebo.) Hopefully regulations and sensitivity training will be updated to reflect this.

E) The absolute latest rulemaking from the government on service animals indicates that only DOGS and MINIATURE HORSES may be designated as service animals. No cats, ferrets, chickens, snakes....



me_little_me said:


> 'ehbowen' said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. I believe that sometime shortly after the formation of Amtrak, the USDA (or perhaps some other agency with similar jurisdiction) issued regulations for common carriers transporting animals which Amtrak found to be overly burdensome....minimum/maximum allowable temperatures (baggage cars are not air conditioned), rest and exercise breaks (and the liability for handling animals during them, not to mention delay of trains while these breaks occurred) and other such. The upshot was that Amtrak declined to carry animals any longer, unless those animals were trained service animals cared for by the passenger. However, one loophole which has been discussed here previously is that Amtrak will not ask for any certification or proof that the animal has been specially trained or even what disability the passenger is claiming; they will take the owner's word that it is a "trained service animal" and allow it aboard to be cared for by the passenger.
> ...


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## Bus Nut (Jun 7, 2013)

Ben_G said:


> One the way back we had a guy get on with a beautiful golden retriever, It did have the vest on that read service dog. I got the chance to talk with the guy a few minutes and he said it was the dog's first trip....I thought well thats a accident waiting to happen. He had it on a long leash part of the time and it jumped up each time the train slowed down or stopped. Went up and down the isles sniffing everyone in the isle seats hands then when the train started moving again it went back and laid at the guys feet. He only rode 3 or 4 stops and got off.....no accidents but he said as he walked past when getting off....She is ready to get off this train.


Classic example of a poorly trained service animal. A properly trained service animal would have been taken on the train during training to acclimate her to the noises and smells of the train. Furthermore, a working dog should not be goofing off or playing by going up and down aisles and sniffing everyone. It should be resting and alert by the person it assists ready to provide assistive service. Period.

On another topic, I have been on only one plane flight that I can think of with a dog in the cabin. While it was not a service dog, it was a working dog (military K9). Despite being a large dog, it settled at the trainer's feet the entire flight and I barely heard a peep out of it.

Taking a pet, as opposed to a well-trained, working dog on any sort of long journey is a recipe for problems.

To those who acted incredulous at the notion of pets interacting, possibly in a negative way, with other patrons, may I ask you one question? Have you ever worked in the passenger transport industry?


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## Bus Nut (Jun 7, 2013)

Stefanie Weiss said:


> I am desperately allergic to perfume, but there is no law against people who are overly perfumed on Amtrak, at the airport, on buses, etc. I have to suffer through it, hives and all, so the "allergy" thing is complete bunk. That's not a good enough reason not to have pets on trains. There can be separate cars, ventilation, etc.


Allergies is not what instituted the ban; that was animal welfare legislation and the state of Amtrak equipment at the time.

In the meantime, Amtrak has had its budget scrutinized by Congress continually and numerous onboard positions cut.

Amtrak doesn't have the resources to clean up after pets midroute. A really messy mess could lead to a very costly service interruption.

And many more Americans are being diagnosed with allergies today, so it will be an issue going forward. Most of the US agencies that allow pets only allow them in hard or soft side carriers, so less dander is spread. Also, many of these properties have fiberglass or vinyl seats, though not all.

As for perfume, I had respiratory trouble after my car attendant on a recent trip "freshened" my cabin with some sort of spray. These problems are mostly caused by VOCs--volatile (that means gaseous) organic compounds. There is a big push in Europe to regulate VOCs and reduce them. I couldn't ride the Acela when it was new without getting violently ill because of outgassing VOCs from the upholstery. Fortunately, Americans are wising up about this, too. For example, VOCs are being reduced in building construction (latex paint is one example) after going crazy in the 80s and 90s.

Many perfumes contain some truly noxious petroleum derivatives that are probably unsafe to everyone, although only about a third of the population will have an immediate reaction. The best hope would be to pressure Congress to expand the FDA's authority to regulate cosmetics and start eliminating unsafe ingredients. (Did you know that Consumer's Union once again tested popular red lipsticks and found toxic metals in most of them?) Right now there is some regulation but the system is extremely lax and doesn't track the current science. Nor do new ingredients have to be tested for safety prior to rollout if they are not used for food or pills.


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## Bus Nut (Jun 7, 2013)

krissie said:


> airlines are already doing this. why is amtrak such a pain??? if people are willing to pay, then there should be a market for it!


Airlines are a for-profit business. (Not to say that they're making a profit, because it appears that despite a raft of indirect subsidies, they must apply for bankrupcy protection frequently.)

This bill is nothing more than an unfunded mandate. It's even more shocking since Amtrak has been hit by sequester cuts. Where is the funding for this grand plan?


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## Ispolkom (Jun 7, 2013)

Bus Nut said:


> This bill is nothing more than an unfunded mandate. It's even more shocking since Amtrak has been hit by sequester cuts. Where is the funding for this grand plan?


What's shocking about Congress imposing an unfunded mandate? What funding did Amtrak get for the gun bin luggage carts at every station required after Congress required that Amtrak transport firearms? As far as I can see Congress exists in large part to impose unfunded mandates, and to make people doubt the principles of democracy.


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## D.P. Roberts (Jun 8, 2013)

Bus Nut said:


> On another topic, I have been on only one plane flight that I can think of with a dog in the cabin.


I once flew on a plane with some penguins in the cabin.

I do not believe they were service penguins, but they were very well behaved. Never uttered a peep.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 8, 2013)

D.P. Roberts said:


> Bus Nut said:
> 
> 
> > On another topic, I have been on only one plane flight that I can think of with a dog in the cabin.
> ...


And they say penguins don't fly! :giggle:


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## Ryan (Jun 8, 2013)

They do after getting swept!


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 9, 2013)

Ryan said:


> They do after getting swept!


:giggle: :giggle: :giggle:


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## Texan Eagle (Jun 9, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> > Bus Nut said:
> ...


Southwest Airlines. Bags (and penguins) Fly Free!


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## crescent2 (Jun 9, 2013)

Well, they've got to get to opening night somehow.


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## dziadzu (Jun 9, 2013)

This may have been said already but the bill to allow dogs on Amtrak trains is H.R. 2066, the Pets on Trains Act of 2013. I am strongly opposed to this bill and will be writing my representatives about it.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2013)

I was on an Amtrak train once that had 20+ hawks onboard, in the passenger compartment!

It was the Chicago BlackHawks!!!

 :giggle:


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