# Would you like the Pere Marquette to have a full service cafe car



## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 4, 2006)

Here is a poll for the Pere Marquette train. Would the passengers who use this train like the State Of Michigan to put a full service Cafe car on this train.


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## AmtrakFan (Sep 4, 2006)

Didn't they use to have one and it got taken off due to lack of Sales?


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 4, 2006)

That was the State Of Michigan's reason but there so Anti Amtrak Labor costs a Cafe car costs around $300,000 a year extra with the labor costs and the cost of the car.


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## 1702 (Sep 4, 2006)

Save Our Trains Michigan said:


> Here is a poll for the Pere Marquette train. Would the passengers who use this train like the State Of Michigan to put a full service Cafe car on this train.


Both Amtrak's & Michigan DOT's websites say the Pere Marquette has sandwich, snack & beverage service.

If that's correct, why in the world would anything more be needed on a train with a scheduled running time of 3'55"??


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 4, 2006)

Well yes when passengers ask for it i belive it is there tax money paying for the train so yes i think they should try a test run to see.

Instead of just always saying no to evreything.


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## AlanB (Sep 4, 2006)

1702 said:


> Save Our Trains Michigan said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a poll for the Pere Marquette train. Would the passengers who use this train like the State Of Michigan to put a full service Cafe car on this train.
> ...


Well it would seem that more is needed on trains with similar run times, like the NEC at 3'15" WAS-NYP, Cascades at 3'30" SEA-PDX, Capitol Corridor at 3'10" SAC-SJC, and the Surfliners at 2'40" LAX-SAN. If all of these shorter runs are deserving of a full cafe car, then one has to wonder why the Pere isnt'. :unsure:

IMHO, either the Pere should be treated the same or Amtrak needs to be rethinking cafe car service on many of these other lines. Perhaps that's where they should be trying to cut the food service losses, not in the dining cars.


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## Sam Damon (Sep 5, 2006)

Some better marketing of cafe car items wouldn't hurt, either.

Fast food joints have "value meals"; you'd wonder why the high-priced marketing types at 60 Mass. can't come up with a way to do the same on cafe cars.

Sometime ago, I picked up one of the last Atlantic Coast Line timetables from 1967. If ACL could sell meal tickets to the dining cars then -- without benefit of spreadsheet analysis and computerized ticketing -- why the crap can't Amtrak?


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 5, 2006)

It's like i said Amtrak would put one on but the State Of Michigan has to cover the compleate cost of the Cafe car and the State Of Michigan does not want to do that.

A Cafe car would cost around $300,000 a year extra on the Pere Marquette.

And as we all know the State Of Michigan doesn't even like to pay the $7.1 million to keep the Blue water and Pere Marquette trains running.

But the reason why i did this poll is because the passengers are asking for a cafe car and if people tell the State Of Michigan what they want there is a chance that the State will make an effort to try this idea.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2006)

Maybe they could start with doing snack cart service like on the Hiawathas.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 5, 2006)

Thats what they have now is a snack cart but the passengers want a Cafe car that they can go into and eat etc.


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## amtrak_russ (Sep 5, 2006)

I take the pere marquette frequently, it is the only route i take. And most passengers are complaning why is there food on the train, and it is because they dont see the car. The crew complains because they dont have a proper area to work in. the cafe sales dont do as well because the cant offer their own food and it is up to the cafe' attendant to brew coffee' in the hotel to provide for the morning run, and usually they have troubles with making coffee' so the early morning passengers complain about the coffee'. lastly the train is always packedc and some passengers have no were to sit so if they had an amfleet cafe' car that would offer more space and seating for the train.

Matt we should start a petition.


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## Palmland (Sep 6, 2006)

Save Our Trains Michigan said:


> That was the State Of Michigan's reason but there so Anti Amtrak Labor costs a Cafe car costs around $300,000 a year extra with the labor costs and the cost of the car.


If the cost is too high for the state, but the passengers want a cafe cars. Seems the only option is to reduce the other expense - crew labor. Perhaps the state should find personnel and pay the labor cost themselves at the prevailing market rate which I suspect is less than Amtrak expense. Isn't something like that done with the Maine supported Downeaster.

Seems to me it's either that or deal with the snack cart.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 6, 2006)

Don't let the State Of Michigan fool you about money they have it but won't give it to Amtrak for the 2 State supported trains they always say there is a shortfall of money but millons of $ are wasted on useless things that can be used for Amtrak.

It is that the Reps and Sen in Michigan just are ANTI AMTRAK there is very little support from a very few Reps and Sen in Michigan unless you put the heat on them about the issues.

The quote i gave about the Cafe car is from about 2 years ago but the money generated would be much more then what it costs.

I am sick and tired of hearing how much Rail Labor is we havent seen a pay raise in the Railroad industry for almost 29 years.

An Avrage RR employee that works on call 24/7 with very few days off a year will make about $60,000 most Amtrak employees will make about $45,000 to $50,000 a year working between 5 days and 6 days a week.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2006)

Save Our Trains Michigan said:


> Don't let the State Of Michigan fool you about money they have it but won't give it to Amtrak for the 2 State supported trains they always say there is a shortfall of money but millons of $ are wasted on useless things that can be used for Amtrak.
> It is that the Reps and Sen in Michigan just are ANTI AMTRAK there is very little support from a very few Reps and Sen in Michigan unless you put the heat on them about the issues.
> 
> The quote i gave about the Cafe car is from about 2 years ago but the money generated would be much more then what it costs.
> ...


May people would argue that $50,000 is a high salary for a food service worker. McDonalds or Subway would never pay that.


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## amtrak_russ (Sep 6, 2006)

> May people would argue that $50,000 is a high salary for a food service worker. McDonalds or Subway would never pay that.


they dont make that much. and some are union.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 6, 2006)

The LSA and food service workers are Railroad workers and are under the Railway Labor Act and have to be in a Union.

You can't compare Subway to Amtrak workers it is 2 diffrent fields.

Congress wrote the Railway Labor Act and the last time anything was opened was 1929 and it is to help the Railroads and the Employees from striking.

And it would be a big mistake for anyone to say open it up you would hurt all the freight Railroad employees.


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## Yerry (Sep 6, 2006)

I ride the PM a lot, and the Rubbermaid cafe car works fine. I've sat near the stand several times, and folks tend to ask for something to drink and something to munch on. A large number (regulars) grab something in CUS before they go.

I'm sure that a survey question "Who wants to pay for an added car" would generate a far different response. Actually, the current survey isn't doing so well right now anyway.

Contrary to one's very convenient opinion, Michigan's economy is not doing well. Locally, we had yet another string of factories close. A recent MSNBC article revealed how much Michigan industry has relocated to (just) one small area near Juarez.

As far as "wasted money", Michigan has been cutting costs left and right all over the sate. Even us bottom-feeding substitute teachers lost our (paid by ourselves!) State Retirement this school year, even though the savings were a drop in the bucket. How much is SOT-M paying? I can triple my wages and still not make Amtrak Union wages, but I got the cut.

Thinking about it today, I realized that I pay for the Pere Marquette FOUR TIMES when I ride it: the ticket, Federal taxes, State taxes, and my now-lost retirement. Somehow I have a hard time justifying a $30,000-$40,000 (depending who provides the numbers-- doesn't anyone really know?) unnecessary position under those conditions. And it's a very short evening & morning run, a hotel room that I can never afford, home in Chicago (and not some desolate waypoint) at NOON! It doesn't qualify as a hardship assignment.

Come off it; there's no clamoring mass on that train asking for Cafe service, and none of them are telegraphing their concerns to Mississippi. This is clearly a "let's add another Union job".

Nowadays, just about everywhere, you prevent strikes by firing them, or closing the plant. To paraphrase the song, "I wish I had a job taht I was able to shove."


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 6, 2006)

Yerry said:


> I ride the PM a lot, and the Rubbermaid cafe car works fine. I've sat near the stand several times, and folks tend to ask for something to drink and something to munch on. A large number (regulars) grab something in CUS before they go.
> I'm sure that a survey question "Who wants to pay for an added car" would generate a far different response. Actually, the current survey isn't doing so well right now anyway.
> 
> Contrary to one's very convenient opinion, Michigan's economy is not doing well. Locally, we had yet another string of factories close. A recent MSNBC article revealed how much Michigan industry has relocated to (just) one small area near Juarez.
> ...


You are wrong i recive mass e mails of why there isnt a cafe car on this train from passengers that use it daily i am also in charge of Save Our Trains Michigan which is our primary group you dont have to tell me anything My Dad has worked for the State of Michigan for over 30 years in the Att Gen office plus my mom was a teacher for over 30 years i know what evrey hand is doing in the State Of Michigan.

And if passengers ask me to try to get a cafe car on the train i will do so thats why our groups are here to try to get the state to listen to the passengers that use the train.


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## AMTK 28 (Sep 6, 2006)

amtrak_russ said:


> Lastly the train is always packedc and some passengers have no were to sit so if they had an amfleet cafe' car that would offer more space and seating for the train.


An Amcafe will only hold 15 passengers. That won't be much of an improvment.

What they really need to add is a fourth Horizon coach that will hold about 70 passengers. That would help the problem you describe better.

Amtrak's Blue Water service trains that run between Chicago and Port Huron could also use an additional coach. That train is often packed as well.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 6, 2006)

We are dealing with this issue but each car on the train has to be paied for by the State of Michigan thats why the Blue water on the slower days will have 3 coaches and on the week end it will have 4 that was all worked out by the State Of Michigan.

The State Of Michigan hast total comtrol of the Pere Marquette and Blue water from how many coaches if they will have food service to having agents in the stations.


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## had8ley (Sep 6, 2006)

Save Our Trains Michigan said:


> Yerry said:
> 
> 
> > Come off it; there's no clamoring mass on that train asking for Cafe service, and none of them are telegraphing their concerns to Mississippi. This is clearly a "let's add another Union job".
> ...



LET'S USE COMMON SENSE HERE; MY MOTHER AND DAD WORKED FOR THE WAR EFFORT IN WW II BUT THEY DID NOT KNOW "EVERYTHING" OR WHAT "EVERY HAND" WAS DOING IN WASHINGTON. YOU NEED TO RECTIFY THE JULY 3rd FIASCO BEFORE YOU START RUNNING THE STATE OF MICHIGAN FROM LOUISIANA. THE ONLY ONE WHO CAME CLOSE TO "KNOWING" IT ALL IS IN THE POKEY IN OAKDALE, LA~ EDWIN

EDWARDS.


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## frj1983 (Sep 7, 2006)

Just out of curiosity,

How many cafe/snack cars are available for service? I'm thinking that fully functioning low level cars might be on the rare side these days. And Amtrak also trys to run trains with less cars and thus less engines these days, could it be possible that is another reason? Granted a P32 can pull a lot of cars and the PM doesn't have a lot of cars, but I assume less cars = less fuel used as well as the cost of labor saved.

I'm not labor bashing here, just ruminating on possible reasons for not putting such a car on the PM.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 7, 2006)

Like i said before the State Of Michigan says how many cars will be on each train and the State feels that 2-3 coach cars is all they need on the Pere Marquette the Blue water runs with 2-4 coaches and a Cafe car.


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## AlanB (Sep 7, 2006)

frj1983 said:


> Just out of curiosity,
> How many cafe/snack cars are available for service? I'm thinking that fully functioning low level cars might be on the rare side these days. And Amtrak also trys to run trains with less cars and thus less engines these days, could it be possible that is another reason? Granted a P32 can pull a lot of cars and the PM doesn't have a lot of cars, but I assume less cars = less fuel used as well as the cost of labor saved.


A quick count on my part shows something over 90 cafes/dinettes on the roster, so I don't think that a lack of cars is the issue. And I didn't count the Amfleet II cafe cars as they are primarily used on the LD's only. I'm sure the costs has far more to do with it than lack of equipment.

You are correct however, less cars=less fuel used.


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## frj1983 (Sep 7, 2006)

AlanB said:


> frj1983 said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity,
> ...


Thanks Alan,

Of the 90 on the roster, I wonder how many are in good working order? I only ask because I see a combination of various cars in the Chicago Yard...deadline, and wonder how many others are like this?

In the long run, though, I will agree, "cost" "cost" "cost" is the current Amtrak mantra. Not that saving is bad, but I sometimes wonder if the decision makers cut off their noses to spite their face."


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## Guest_Avia_* (Sep 8, 2006)

Sometime in late October, four new trains subsidized by the State of Illinois will start - with cafe cars. I understand these will be Amfleets coming from California. With limited cafe cars available, those States that will support the service get the cars!


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## Sheer Luck Holmes (Sep 8, 2006)

I am unclear what point guest Avia (Avia-tor?) is making, apart from another plea for a self financing rail system...There are no unsubsidised rail systems in the world!

SLH


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## PRR 60 (Sep 8, 2006)

Sheer Luck Holmes said:


> I am unclear what point guest Avia (Avia-tor?) is making, apart from another plea for a self financing rail system...There are no unsubsidised rail systems in the world!SLH


I think the point being made by Avia is that Illinois may be using all the available Cafes for their new service leaving no cars available if Michigan wanted to add one to the Pere Marquette. That is not the case, but that was the poster's meaning


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## Palmland (Sep 8, 2006)

Matt - they should talk with North Carolina DOT that operates the Piedmont. A classy little train with business class and dinette. Very much like the Pere Marquette service in that it has 4 cars generally, links a smaller city, Raleigh, with the larger one, Charlotte. Mileage is 173 vs. 176 on the Pere Marquette. Perhaps the DOT has found some innovative ways to fund this. Likewise a talk with the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority that operates the Downeaster might give the Michigan folks some ideas. It never hurts to talk.


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## Palmland (Sep 8, 2006)

Correction - no business class on Piedmont. Cafe car is nice and the snacks and beverages are complimentary. On my trip had a good Danish and lots of hot coffee. I don't remember if the train volunteer host served it up or if there was an attendent. The Downeaster has a much more comprehensive menu.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2006)

This is a crazy discussion.

If the citizens of Michigan and the regular passengers want additional equipment on the train, then they need to tell their elected representatives that is what they want and that they are willing to pay for it. "Save our trains Michigan" does not have the power or reputation to get something like this done. If it did, the car would be on the train now. How many members are there in Save our trains Michigan and how many passengers have communicated to Save our trains Michigan that they want a cafe car?

Does Save our trains Michigan (or Mississippi) work with the Amtak Government Affairs offices to try and get these things done?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2006)

As an after-thought and in line with what North Carolina does, perhaps all these people clamoring for a Cafe Car can form a volunteer Train Host Program, similar to NC and then one of the volunteer train hosts can serve all these people.


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## had8ley (Sep 8, 2006)

you dont have to tell me anything My Dad has worked for the State of Michigan for over 30 years in the Att Gen office plus my mom was a teacher for over 30 years i know what evrey hand is doing in the State Of Michigan.

Need we see or hear more of this jibberish ????

LETS USE COMMON SENSE HERE; MY MOTHER AND DAD WORKED FOR THE WAR EFFORT IN WW II BUT THEY DID NOT KNOW "EVERYTHING" OR WHAT "EVERY HAND" WAS DOING IN WASHINGTON. YOU NEED TO RECTIFY THE JULY 3rd FIASCO BEFORE YOU START RUNNING THE STATE OF MICHIGAN FROM LOUISIANA. THE ONLY ONE WHO CAME CLOSE TO "KNOWING" IT ALL IS IN THE POKEY IN OAKDALE, LA~ EDWIN

EDWARDS.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 9, 2006)

The Blue water and Pere Marquette would not be around this year if Save Our Trains Michigan didn't get involved with Sen Shirley Johnson the information was given to our group about the August 10th cut off date for both trains due to Sen Shirley Johnson cutting the budget on the 2 trains to $6.1 million we pushed very hard on this issue held a rally in East Lansing Mi which got the attition of a lot of people we had free air time on radio stations telling people about the rally the news that goes out on the internet for the State Of Michigan did a story 3 days before the rally and advertised the rally that got Sen Shirley Johnson's office in an uproar.

Yes we work with Amtrak and the State Of Michigan and the Sen and Rep's we have saved these 2 trains year after year because we have the news media on our side to do story's and the respect of a lot of Rep's in Michigan.


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## Yerry (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm sorry; MARP's own story is a bit more believable.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2006)

Can you tell us how many members there are in Save Our Trains Michigan and SOT Mississippi?

Do you do your own press releases and if so, can you link us to them?

If you are writing to these Senators and Representatives, can you link us to some of the letters?

I am curious how you can be so influential in Michigan and have such garbled text in your posts to this forum.

I am having a hard time believing your claims; however I am willing to be proven wrong, just show me the proof in actual numbers, copies of letters and press releases.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 10, 2006)

We dont write letters we talk and e mail with the Rep's and Sen and MDOT.

We are an all Vol group we all have full time jobs and do this on the side.

Members our on the web site we dont have people join we are not set up like that we give out information and the public acts on it.

We just e mail the news media or they contact me via e mail or phone.


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## Yerry (Sep 10, 2006)

What a surprise. . . . no proof.

MARP, like almost all NARP-affilliated rail advocacy organizations, has no more than one part-time paid position, yet maintains legal paperwork, standard charity accounting practices, publicizes lobbying eforts PRIOR to any announced results, etc. Sorry, but the vast majority of THOSE people also have full-time jobs, families, etc. Not buying the baloney.

I work two jobs, take college coursework to maintain my licenses, put in upwards 20+ hours per week with an educational charitable organization, and somehow am still able to keep track of what I do. I have every one of my Amtrak-related letters, dating back to 1980. Marginal effort whatsoever.


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 11, 2006)

we work along side with MARP look at there web site we had a sit down meeting with some MARP Officers last Jan and it was approved to work along side of Save Our Trains Michigan.

We do things that MARP can't do and they do things that we dont have the manpower to do.


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## had8ley (Sep 11, 2006)

Yerry said:


> What a surprise. . . . no proof.
> MARP, like almost all NARP-affilliated rail advocacy organizations, has no more than one part-time paid position, yet maintains legal paperwork, standard charity accounting practices, publicizes lobbying eforts PRIOR to any announced results, etc. Sorry, but the vast majority of THOSE people also have full-time jobs, families, etc. Not buying the baloney.
> 
> I work two jobs, take college coursework to maintain my licenses, put in upwards 20+ hours per week with an educational charitable organization, and somehow am still able to keep track of what I do. I have every one of my Amtrak-related letters, dating back to 1980. Marginal effort whatsoever.




SURPRISED ANYBODY ???


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Sep 11, 2006)

had8ley said:


> Yerry said:
> 
> 
> > What a surprise. . . . no proof.
> ...


What a lot of people dont understand is if you declare 501C and become non profit you are limited to what you can do and say that is why MARP has teamed up with Save Our Trains Michigan we have no limits since we do not accept any money from anyone.


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## Yerry (Sep 11, 2006)

Minutes of a MARP meeting, pulled off their website:



> Coalition with Save Our Trains Michigan. Members decided to take a cautious approach to joining Save Our Trains Michigan rallies as some members in attendance felt the group’s approach might hurt efforts to retain state-sponsored passenger trains.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2006)

> What a lot of people dont understand is if you declare 501C and become non profit you are limited to what you can do and say that is why MARP has teamed up with Save Our Trains Michigan we have no limits since we do not accept any money from anyone.


*I said absolutely nothing about 501© charities. *What I did say, just in case you didn't read my actual post, was point out that your "we're too busy singlehandedly saving Amtrak to prove anything" argument didn't hold water.

Funny how, once someone gets to a specific question, you dance away from it and start talking about something else. July 3, group membership, proof of claims. . . .

All in all, this is kind of fun.

Another question: what was the point of your survey? Did you really want to know, or were you looking for some free publicity? This is a train site; one would expect positive results.

Anyone disagrees and you start railing on them. That's not what a survey is for. Oddly enough, your survey's results are running on the negative side. . . On THAT point, I know results would be different had the survey NOT had any mention of any possible link with any specific group-- example, listing one political party will lure negative input from die-hard members of the oposing party. A more accurate survey question, one that would address the situation far better than "Who wants a full meal", would have been, "Would you want, and use, improved food services on The Pere Marquette, and be willing to use a portion of your tax dollars to do so?" that's because wanting something and being willing to pay for it are two totally different concepts.


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## Anthony (Sep 11, 2006)

To the guest posters: I will say that, validity of either side's arguments notwithstanding, at least Matt has the fortitude to post using a real member account.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 11, 2006)

Guest said:


> ...All in all, this is kind of fun.


You have to admit, he does liven things up around here with his diatribes. In a kind of meandering, bumble-stumble way, it is pure genius.


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## y (Sep 12, 2006)

> To the guest posters: I will say that, validity of either side's arguments notwithstanding, at least Matt has the fortitude to post using a real member account.


One would assume that if I quote MYSELF, and the original post has my name on it. . . .

Bad assumption, apparently.


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## George Harris (Sep 12, 2006)

Alan / Matt:

This thread seems to have gotten completely off the rail primarily due to a a selection of primarily "guests" coming in to bash Matt on something completely unrelated to the subject at hand. Looks like a good time to either lock it or delete those posts that rant on about completely irrelevant issues. In case various readers have forgotten, the question on the table is supposed to be an attempt to accertain the level of demand for a Cafe Car on the Pere Marquette, and that alone. It is not about what is a reasonable wage, the presumptive level of financial flushness or brokeness of the state of Michingan, how the state has treated their teachers, other programs or anything else other than the issue of the CAFE CAR.

All states plead poverty whenever it suits their purpose, but I have yet to see any state legislators or high level employees waiting for a city bus or greyhound, or being able to prove that their income level qualifies them for food stamps. Nor do you see any real emphasis beyond lip service on building public buildings, school or otherwise, that are economical, durable, and economical to maintain and operate. Instead that almost all look like they are designed by architects trying to make "statements" which many times interfere with their actual function rather than facilities that are economical with the taxpayer's money. Generally when economy does come in, it is the deletion of something that is truly useful because the decision makers live in such a world of unreality they can not tell the difference between useful, beneficial, and purely ornamental. The state probably loses track of more money in their big ticket programs like the highway department and education than the total spent on rail all kinds, amtrak plus freight assistance, if they even have such a thing in Michigan.

I have not participatee in the poll because my time in Michigan has been limited to change planes in Detroit to and from overseas plus one unintentional night spent at the expense of Northwest Airlines.

George


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## had8ley (Sep 12, 2006)

PRR 60 said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > ...All in all, this is kind of fun.
> ...





Yes. I fully realize that George, Alan and others will not be very happy with this post but put yourselves in Amtrak employee shoes for once; how would you feel if someone came into your office shouting, "We're closing this place down next month !!!" and then it never materializes? Let's get real here and stop making lame excuses for someone who been PROVEN to be a publicity hound with almost no one to back him up except a bunch of titles and barely legible posts that would insult a 3rd grader that anyone can make up. Dorothy, along with Toto, made better headway clicking her shoes together...


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## AlanB (Sep 12, 2006)

had8ley said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Guest said:
> ...


First, I'm pretty sure that George wasn't defending Matt and I know that PRR60 wasn't.

Next let's get real here; rumors surrounding Amtrak's imminent demise have been rampant for years. Amtrak is well known for its own internal rumor mill. And of course there is the annual nail biting that seems to occur every fall as employee's, railfans, and much of the general public who use Amtrak await the results of the annual budget dance in Washington. So no one who works at Amtrak should ever be surprised if someone comes into their office shouting "We're closing this place down next month!!!" Something that by the way Matt didn't do, he simply posted something on the internet that he got from someone at Amtrak. Let me stress that again, *he got it from someone at Amtrak.*

I don't know who, I don't know what their position of authority might be, but the reality is that his post originated from someone at Amtrak. So if the employee's want someone to blame for last July’s scare, then they had best start with the Amtrak rumor mill, which would appear to be running stronger than ever. I'm not going to sit here and debate once again what Matt should or should not have done with that information, as that subject has been well covered already.



y said:


> > To the guest posters: I will say that, validity of either side's arguments notwithstanding, at least Matt has the fortitude to post using a real member account.
> 
> 
> One would assume that if I quote MYSELF, and the original post has my name on it. . . .
> ...


I see no place in this thread where you quoted yourself. :unsure: But even then, the average person wouldn't know that it's you simply because you quoted a post that you had already made using the guest feature.

However, I believe that Anthony's point is the anonymous nature of guest postings. They provide no way for any member to respond privately be it to support or challenge your post(s), should they be so inclined. As well as the fact that it’s much easier to criticize when no one knows who you are. I do note that you usually do at least provide a name when you post as a guest, but many others did not.

It takes only a very short time to register for this board and there are no charges associated with it and no penalties to be paid, like for example getting spam in your inbox. Failure to do that, while being critical of someone who has done that, is almost like the more than 50% of Americans who sit around complaining about a politician, yet never bothered to show up and exercise one of the most important rights granted them under the Constitution, that being the right to have voted for or against said politician.



George Harris said:


> Alan / Matt:
> This thread seems to have gotten completely off the rail primarily due to a a selection of primarily "guests" coming in to bash Matt on something completely unrelated to the subject at hand. Looks like a good time to either lock it or delete those posts that rant on about completely irrelevant issues. In case various readers have forgotten, the question on the table is supposed to be an attempt to accertain the level of demand for a Cafe Car on the Pere Marquette, and that alone. It is not about what is a reasonable wage, the presumptive level of financial flushness or brokeness of the state of Michingan, how the state has treated their teachers, other programs or anything else other than the issue of the CAFE CAR.


I agree George and it is done, and for the very reasons that you've stated.

And let me be perfectly clear, this thread was not closed in an attempt to defend or protect Matt, it was closed because as George pointed out, it is so way off topic!


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