# Canadian freight train derails, explodes



## Swadian Hardcore

A runaway freight train carrying 73 crude oil tankers derailed in Lac-Megantic, Quebec, splling the cargo and causing a massive blaze. The train was operated by Montral, Maine, & Atlantic. It apparently originated in North Dakota and was travelling to New Brunswick.

I can't think of why this train would lose control and derail. Where did the engineer go?


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## Acela150

The train was in a siding waiting a new crew to take over the train.


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## CHamilton

More information.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/07/07/train_explodes_in_lacmgantic_quebec_forcing_residents_to_flee.html


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## NS VIA Fan

Some stunning high-res pictures here. Five are now confirmed dead but 40 still missing.........It was a warm evening and the bars would have been packed at 1am when the derailment occurred. In one of the pictures here (#5) you’ll see what’s left of an outdoor patio and bar.

http://www.spiq.ca/v2/ailleurs/2013_07_06_Incendie_Lac-Megantic/index.html

This is the former CP line that crosses Maine and was once the route of VIA's Atlantic.


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## OBS

NS VIA Fan said:


> Some stunning high-res pictures here. Five are now confirmed dead but 40 still missing.........It was a warm evening and the bars would have been packed at 1am when the derailment occurred. In one of the pictures here (#5) you’ll see what’s left of an outdoor patio and bar.
> http://www.spiq.ca/v2/ailleurs/2013_07_06_Incendie_Lac-Megantic/index.html
> 
> This is the former CP line that crosses Maine and was once the route of VIA's Atlantic.


Thanks for the link.

I wondered if it was the former Atlantic line.


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## OlympianHiawatha

The NBC Nightly News (for what it is worth) reported Sunday the cars themselves came uncoupled and rolled back into town. Of course they did not elaborate. But if that is the case assuming the engine was idling and air was still set they should have braked as soon as the hose came uncoupled.


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## cirdan

OlympianHiawatha said:


> The NBC Nightly News (for what it is worth) reported Sunday the cars themselves came uncoupled and rolled back into town. Of course they did not elaborate. But if that is the case assuming the engine was idling and air was still set they should have braked as soon as the hose came uncoupled.


Unless there was some form of sabotage at work here.

The news report says the engineer parked and secured the train before checking into a hotel, and unless he made a mistake, it would be nigh on impossible for the train to start of its own accord.

I guess that even if the air brake was not applied, that air leaking out of the pipes would cause the brakes to gradually come on.


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## AlanB

cirdan said:


> I guess that even if the air brake was not applied, that air leaking out of the pipes would cause the brakes to gradually come on.


If the engineer had failed to apply the air brakes after pulling the train in, my guess is that it would have started rolling back to the town before he even got off the train.


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## AmtrakBlue

This incident has added fuel to the fire in Delaware City, DE where they have already been protesting the plans of having oil delivered to the refinery by rail cars.


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## cirdan

AlanB said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that even if the air brake was not applied, that air leaking out of the pipes would cause the brakes to gradually come on.
> 
> 
> 
> If the engineer had failed to apply the air brakes after pulling the train in, my guess is that it would have started rolling back to the town before he even got off the train.
Click to expand...

 I'm not sure. Sometimes a sudden gust of wind or even vibrations caused by something totally unconnected can cause an unsecured vehicle to start moving.

For an entire train too start moving would require a bizarre concurrence of extremely unusual circumstances, but would not be entirely beyond the impossible.


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## jimhudson

Great pics! It's a Real Tragedy!  RIP to the Dead and Speedy recovery to the Injured!Most Major cities have adopted Hazardous Material Routes on the Highways that run through Populated Areas but with Railroads still running through the Middle of so many Towns it is nigh impossible to Re-Route these Trains to miss Populated Areas! Austin is finally considering a Hazardous Materials Ordinance because I35 runs right through the Middle of the City! The UP Tracks will be another Story since it would take Billions to By Pass Austin the way it has Grown!

Most folks don't realize how much Hazardous, Really Dangerous Stuff passes through their Town Day and Night on Trucks and Trains , if they knew they might become more involved! West Texas will never Recover from the Factory Explosion that happened this year and there are literally thousands of places with such time Bombs waiting to go off!


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## CHamilton

Via Facebook:
National Dream Renewed



> Transport Action grieves for the loss of life in Lac Mégantic, a town on the former CPR mainline through Maine. The centre of town was wiped out with around 40 people killed by a runaway tank car train that derailed and exploded there after inexplicably leaving Nantes, Qc where it had been tied down at the end of a shift. While unattended, one of the locomotives had an engine fire, but this extinguished by local firefighter, according to RDI (CBC continuous news in French).
> 
> There are reportedly three crude oil trains per day over the Montréal, Maine and Atlantic Railway*, with crude oil coming from the Bakken Formation in South Saskatchewan bound for the (Irving?) refinery in Saint John New Brunswick. The amount of crude oil moved by tank car in Canada has grown twenty-fold since 2009, the newspapers report.
> 
> An excellent analysis of the movement of crude oil by train is to be found in TRAINS Magazine August 2013 - "Oil traffic reigns on the railways". The article contests the oft-made claim that pipelines spill less oil than rail: per million ton-miles pipelines spill 2.56 gal. (U"S") and rail but 0.13 gal. The article is by David Thomas, a business writer from Alberta.
> 
> Rail news services have so fare reported nothing in daily e-mail bulletins, although most of today's are not yet in the in-box, so we'll have to wait and see, but the usual sources are silent. The summer weekend is a factor, prudence is another, the international boundary too, but Canadian rail advocates have been very quiet, except for Denis Allard who made claims about "unsafe" older tank cars (La Presse)


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## The Davy Crockett

While it will probably take a while to figure out the exact circumstances of this tragedy, here is an interesting article on the history and properties of train air brakes to chew on.


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## chakk

Reports I have seen indicate that the train crew had left the engine for beans, and for some unexplained reason the train brake lines bled off and the cars started rolling. Don't know how much of a grade is required to get a stopped train of tank cars to start rolling, but another report indicates that their speed increased to near 60 mph before derailing on a curve in town.


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## Anderson

A second, if rather morbid, question in a different respect: How long until the MMA goes bankrupt from this? It seems like they're going to end up on the hook for this; unlike BNSF or UP (who though they would feel the pain, could absorb a massive judgment), they're not likely to have the sort of coverage needed for something of this magnitude (given the lawsuits we all know are coming).


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## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> This incident has added fuel to the fire in Delaware City, DE where they have already been protesting the plans of having oil delivered to the refinery by rail cars.


That Oil Train 64R Loaded and 65R Empty, drives me and a ton of other railfans crazy. Twice a week it has a NS Heritage Unit(s) on it.


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## jis

There is some posting on misc.transport.rail.americas Usenet group from someone in Canada, that a series of events each OK in and of itself, led to the train losing its brakes. According to that set of postings here is what happened....

1. The Engineer parked the train, shut down three of the four units, and kept one unit on to supply brake air to keep the train stationary, and went off to a hotel nearby.

2. The engine caught fire.

3. The fire department came to put the fire out and in the process shut off the engine.

4. Unfortunately they neither tried to contact the railroad nor tried to find the Engineer apparently, and left.

5. The residual brake air bled out eventually releasing the brakes which set the train rolling.

6. The rest we have seen pictures of.

Don't know the truth or falsehood of this sequence, but this is what is being stated on the internet. As usual we will know the real story only after Transport Canada finishes its inquiry into the incident.


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## Anderson

Now I'm wondering if that failure to either [try to] contact the railroad or [try to] find the engineer would qualify as gross negligence. That fact pattern would seem to shield MMA from at least some liability (and possibly all), since from what I can tell what they did isn't too far off of normal procedures. The fire department might be the ones in hot water now.


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## jis

If what I posted is true then yes the Fire Department may be in a bit of fire itself.



Anderson said:


> Now I'm wondering if that failure to either [try to] contact the railroad or [try to] find the engineer would qualify as gross negligence. That fact pattern would seem to shield MMA from at least some liability (and possibly all), since from what I can tell what they did isn't too far off of normal procedures. The fire department might be the ones in hot water now.


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## jis

Some more info:

http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2013/07/Death%20toll%20rises%20in%20Quebec%20derailment.aspx

Apparently point 4 above is not entirely correct in my list. The Fire Department did contact the Railroad, and it is their guy who now appears to have been the clueless one. So the railroad would appear to be entirely on the hook by themselves.


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## George Harris

It takes quite a lot of change in elevation with a fairly good grade on it to get a train up to 60 mph. Did not realize that there was that much of either in this area.


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## NS VIA Fan

George Harris said:


> It takes quite a lot of change in elevation with a fairly good grade on it to get a train up to 60 mph. Did not realize that there was that much of either in this area.


Quite mountainous.....the White Mountains of New Hampshire are just across the border. Mt Washington (cog railway fame) is about 80 miles south and the mountains of western Maine are 10 miles east. The MM&A Railway crosses the US border at Boundary Station, just east of Megantic at 1850 feet elevation.

Megantic is in a valley at the end of a 10 km, 1% grade from Nantes where the train was initially parked.


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## MrFSS

NS VIA Fan said:


> Some stunning high-res pictures here. Five are now confirmed dead but 40 still missing.........It was a warm evening and the bars would have been packed at 1am when the derailment occurred. In one of the pictures here (#5) you’ll see what’s left of an outdoor patio and bar.
> http://www.spiq.ca/v2/ailleurs/2013_07_06_Incendie_Lac-Megantic/index.html
> 
> This is the former CP line that crosses Maine and was once the route of VIA's Atlantic.


The link doesn't show the pictures. I saw them once, but they seem to be gone, now?


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## Swadian Hardcore

jis said:


> There is some posting on misc.transport.rail.americas Usenet group from someone in Canada, that a series of events each OK in and of itself, led to the train losing its brakes. According to that set of postings here is what happened....
> 1. The Engineer parked the train, shut down three of the four units, and kept one unit on to supply brake air to keep the train stationary, and went off to a hotel nearby.
> 
> 2. The engine caught fire.
> 
> 3. The fire department came to put the fire out and in the process shut off the engine.
> 
> 4. Unfortunately they neither tried to contact the railroad nor tried to find the Engineer apparently, and left.
> 
> 5. The residual brake air bled out eventually releasing the brakes which set the train rolling.
> 
> 6. The rest we have seen pictures of.
> 
> Don't know the truth or falsehood of this sequence, but this is what is being stated on the internet. As usual we will know the real story only after Transport Canada finishes its inquiry into the incident.


So if Point 4 is reportedly incorrect, then I think the two problems are why the engine caught on fire and why the railroad failed to provide information on fire procedures. It does look like this will fall on the railroad's head.



NS VIA Fan said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> It takes quite a lot of change in elevation with a fairly good grade on it to get a train up to 60 mph. Did not realize that there was that much of either in this area.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite mountainous.....the White Mountains of New Hampshire are just across the border. Mt Washington (cog railway fame) is about 80 miles south and the mountains of western Maine are 10 miles east. The MM&A Railway crosses the US border at Boundary Station, just east of Megantic at 1850 feet elevation.
> 
> Megantic is in a valley at the end of a 10 km, 1% grade from Nantes where the train was initially parked.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the details.


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## railiner

jis said:


> Some more info:
> http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2013/07/Death%20toll%20rises%20in%20Quebec%20derailment.aspx
> 
> Apparently point 4 above is not entirely correct in my list. The Fire Department did contact the Railroad, and it is their guy who now appears to have been the clueless one. So the railroad would appear to be entirely on the hook by themselves.


I am sure that the lawyers will look to get their hands in the deepest pockets they can, whether fair or not. This might include the tank car manufacturer's, the locomotive manufacturer's and those of all components within....and let's not forget the other railroads that carried those cars prior....and even the shipper and consignee....you get the idea...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Newest update on the explosion:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/world/americas/canada-runaway-train/

Could this be sabotage or train vandalism? There's so many possible reasons, and no one really knows the truth right now. I'll be waiting for that investigation report.


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## cirdan

Is it actually sufficient to leave an engine running to replenish the brake line?

Surely a whole multitude of things could happen. Diesel engines stall sometimes for example. It doesn't require anything as violent as a fire.

Wouldnt'it be safer to secure the train with handbrakes and/or blocks?


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## Aaron

cirdan said:


> Is it actually sufficient to leave an engine running to replenish the brake line?


No. From what knowledgable employees of other railroads are reporting, the standard procedure for securing a train is to set the air brakes, then manually set the handbrakes on a sufficient number of cars given the grade and the load of the train. Once the handbrakes are set, the air brakes are released, and the locomotive is supposed to actually tug on the train to see if it moves. If it doesn't, great. If it does, set the air brakes again, go back to the cars, set more brakes, and repeat. Additionally, if the train is parked on a siding, either derails have to be placed, or a switch needs to be lined up in whatever way would keep it from rolling on to the main line. In this case, the MM&A train was parked on the main, so that part's irrelevant. (Here's a pretty good explanation: http://www.montrealgazette.com/a9gantic+What+causes+runaway+train/8631894/story.html)

It's still early in the investigation, and I'm really not knowledgable enough to comment with any authority, but I won't let that stop me. The way I see it, the very best case scenario for the railroad is some discovery of some sort of sabotage or criminal activity, like finding that someone deliberately set the original fire on the locomotive. That would at least let their lawyers direct part of the blame toward something else for starting the big chain of events. They'd still get hammered for contributory negligence for everything the engineer did wrong and every policy or training material that pushed the engineer to take shortcuts.

Without some sort of smoking gun evidence of third party involvement like that, they're doomed, and I think they know it, and that's why their CEO walks around spouting such dumb comments like pinning everything on the air brakes and then blaming the firefighters for shutting the locomotive down. It's a Hail Mary play to deflect as much attention as possible for as long as possible in the hopes that something else might magically appear that they can pin at least some of the blame on.


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## cirdan

Do items such as the data recorder and the nose camera continue to work when the engine is shut down?

If so, then there might be some indication there of tampering, and/or of professional misconduct by the engineer.


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## CHamilton

It is unreal to be in Quebec province today. My train journeys are unaffected, but news of the disaster is everywhere. Today's Montreal Gazette uses most of its front section to describe how the town is coping (not well). There doesn't seem to be much new info on why it happened, but there are diagrams showing what went where.

Here's a link to a bunch of their stories: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/lac-megantic/index.html


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## AlanB

Well as of this evening the engineer is now in police custody and the current reports state that he failed to engage enough hand brakes on the consist. Because of that, after the fire, with the engine shut down now the air slowly bled out and the few handbrakes that were engaged were not enough to keep the train from moving on the grade.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/10/19396092-death-toll-at-50-as-30-missing-now-presumed-dead-in-quebec-train-crash-engineer-suspended?lite=


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## Aaron

AlanB said:


> Well as of this evening the engineer is now in police custody...


No, he's not. The statement from the MM&A CEO is that he's "under police control", whatever that means. The article you quoted specifically stated that no arrests have been made. This article makes it clear with additional statements from the CEO that the engineer is not actually in custody. The police are silent on the matter.

The phrase "under police control" is probably an intentionally deceptive phrasing on his part. It's just another one of the shifting array of statements designed to confuse and spread blame while Burkhardt and MM&A hope for a miracle.


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## cirdan

Aaron said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well as of this evening the engineer is now in police custody...
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not. The statement from the MM&A CEO is that he's "under police control", whatever that means. The article you quoted specifically stated that no arrests have been made. This article makes it clear with additional statements from the CEO that the engineer is not actually in custody. The police are silent on the matter.
> 
> The phrase "under police control" is probably an intentionally deceptive phrasing on his part. It's just another one of the shifting array of statements designed to confuse and spread blame while Burkhardt and MM&A hope for a miracle.
Click to expand...

I hope he's being taken proper care of. Being in a situation like his and realizing the damage and deaths he's probably responsible for, there may be an increased danger he may be having suicidal thoughts.


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## Ryan

Aaron said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well as of this evening the engineer is now in police custody...
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not. The statement from the MM&A CEO is that he's "under police control", whatever that means. The article you quoted specifically stated that no arrests have been made.
Click to expand...

It's possible to be in custody without being under arrest.

It's probably protective custody, since it sounds like the folks from that town are righteously pissed.


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## CHamilton

Here's a story from yesterday that's quite sympathetic to the engineer. http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/a9gantic+Locomotive+engineer+bravery+have+prevented+greater+catastrophe/8637628/story.html

And a story from today that doesn't make MMA's chairman look good.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/M%C3%A9gantic+chairman+faces+townspeople/8643326/story.html

The regulators are admitting failure, too.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/national/wake+Megantic+tragedy+Transport+Canada+admits+didn/8642649/story.html

All in all, there's lots of blame to go around, as made clear from the editorial cartoons.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/opinion/editorial-cartoons/index.html


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## Swadian Hardcore

cirdan said:


> Aaron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well as of this evening the engineer is now in police custody...
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's not. The statement from the MM&A CEO is that he's "under police control", whatever that means. The article you quoted specifically stated that no arrests have been made. This article makes it clear with additional statements from the CEO that the engineer is not actually in custody. The police are silent on the matter.
> 
> The phrase "under police control" is probably an intentionally deceptive phrasing on his part. It's just another one of the shifting array of statements designed to confuse and spread blame while Burkhardt and MM&A hope for a miracle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hope he's being taken proper care of. Being in a situation like his and realizing the damage and deaths he's probably responsible for, there may be an increased danger he may be having suicidal thoughts.
Click to expand...

If he commits suicide then that would make the investigation much harder. For the sake of the victims and prevention of another accident like this, he should not kill himself.


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## FriskyFL

I'm curious, where are the locomotives? Presumably they either derailed in front of the tank cars, or somehow managed to stay on the rails and rolled to a stop somewhere S of the wreck? I've not seen any pix.


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## jis

They detached from the cars and went past the town and stopped. They did not derail.


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## Swadian Hardcore

jis said:


> They detached from the cars and went past the town and stopped. They did not derail.


That's interesting. I wonder how that happened. I hope this helps the investigators.


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## CHamilton

Canada's Transportation Safety Board issues advisories in wake of Quebec derailment



> The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) on Friday announced it issued two "urgent safety advisories" to Transport Canada associated with its ongoing investigation into the Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) derailment that occurred July 6 in Lac-Mégantic, Quebec.
> 
> The first advisory pertains to the securement of equipment and trains left unattended. The TSB investigation determined that the braking force applied to the train that derailed was insufficient to hold it on the 1.2 percent descending slope. Therefore, the TSB has asked Transport Canada to review certain Canadian railroad operating rules and related railway special instructions to ensure that equipment and trains left unattended are properly secured to prevent unintended movements.
> 
> The second advisory concerns the securement of trains carrying hazardous materials. Given the importance of safely moving "dangerous goods" and the vulnerability of unattended equipment, the TSB has asked Transport Canada to review all railroad operating procedures to ensure that trains carrying dangerous goods are not left unattended on a main track, according to a press release.


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## CHamilton

Quebec derailment fallout: Efforts to improve rail safety emerge in Canada, U.S.



> Transport Canada yesterday announced it issued an emergency directive aimed at improving rail safety in the wake of the Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway derailment that occurred July 6 in Lac-Mégantic, Quebec.
> 
> Although the accident's cause remains unknown, Transport Canada is trying to build upon the safety advisories it received last week from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) and further enhance existing rail safety and security measures, Transport Canada officials said in a prepared statement.
> 
> Effective immediately, all Canadian railroads are required to ensure that:
> • no locomotive attached to one or more loaded tank cars transporting hazardous materials is operated with fewer than two qualified persons on a main track or siding;
> • no locomotive attached to one or more loaded haz-mat tank cars is left unattended on a main track;
> • all unattended controlling locomotives on a main track and sidings are protected from unauthorized entry into the cab;
> • directional controls are removed from any unattended locomotives, preventing them from moving forward or backward, on a main track or siding;
> • individual special instructions on hand brakes are applied to any locomotive attached to one or more cars that are left unattended for more than one hour on a main track or sidings; and
> • the automatic brake is set in full-service position and the independent brake is fully applied for any locomotive attached to one or more cars that are left unattended for one hour or less on a main track or sidings.
> ...
> 
> The accident has prompted a call for improved rail safety in the United States, too. Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) on Monday announced he sent a letter to the U.S. Department of Transportation urging the agency to require freight railroads to draft a plan to retrofit or phase-out "DOT-111" tank cars, which were involved in the Quebec derailment.
> 
> The tank cars "have proven to be flawed, out of date and a factor in hazardous material spills during derailments," said Schumer in a prepared statement. The Quebec derailment in combination with increased crude-oil shipments along New York railways to the Port of Albany creates an urgency for a corresponding increase in freight-rail safety measures in the state, which must be implemented through the Federal Railroad Administration and Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration regulatory processes later this year, he said.
> 
> DOT-111 tank cars are not pressurized like DOT-105 or DOT-112 cars that have thicker shells and heads, and are less prone to breaching during a derailment, said Schumer, who also wrote a letter to the Association of American Railroads urging its cooperation in retrofitting or phasing-out DOT-111 cars.


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## CHamilton

Canada to ban one-person train crews


> TRANSPORT Canada announced on July 23 that it will ban one-person train crews in response to the derailment and explosion of a freight train at Lac-Mégantic, Quebec on July 6, which killed at least 47 people.
> 
> Transport Canada also said trains with dangerous goods would not be allowed to be left unattended on any main line track, and that hand brakes must be applied to trains left for one hour or more.


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## Guest

Are one-person train crews allowed in the US?


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## NS VIA Fan

Guest said:


> Are one-person train crews allowed in the US?


Yes....at least they were. The Montreal, Maine & Atlantic had one person crews operating in Maine before they were permitted on the portion of the railway in Canada.


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## jis

Looks like MM&A might shutd down. preparations are affot for that eventuality....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/us-business/us-rail-officials-ready-backup-plans-in-case-mma-shuts-down/article13492300/


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## Swadian Hardcore

NS VIA Fan said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are one-person train crews allowed in the US?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....at least they were. The Montreal, Maine & Atlantic had one person crews operating in Maine before they were permitted on the portion of the railway in Canada.
Click to expand...

Doesn't Amtrak operate with one-person crews all the time? I thought the firemen are gone by now in the US.



jis said:


> Looks like MM&A might shutd down. preparations are affot for that eventuality....
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/us-business/us-rail-officials-ready-backup-plans-in-case-mma-shuts-down/article13492300/


That was expected. Too bad it probably means the Atlantic is absolutely dead, and the line may get abandoned.


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## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> NS VIA Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are one-person train crews allowed in the US?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....at least they were. The Montreal, Maine & Atlantic had one person crews operating in Maine before they were permitted on the portion of the railway in Canada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doesn't Amtrak operate with one-person crews all the time? I thought the firemen are gone by now in the US.
Click to expand...

No. Amtrak operates with a mix. Yes, there are probably more trains that operate without a fireman thanks to the corridor services. But there are still Amtrak trains that run with both an engineer and a fireman.


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## railiner

And all Amtrak trains have at least one conductor....


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## amtkstn

Amtrak operates trains that run shorter trip of six hours or less with Omer person in the cab.


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## Swadian Hardcore

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NS VIA Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are one-person train crews allowed in the US?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....at least they were. The Montreal, Maine & Atlantic had one person crews operating in Maine before they were permitted on the portion of the railway in Canada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doesn't Amtrak operate with one-person crews all the time? I thought the firemen are gone by now in the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. Amtrak operates with a mix. Yes, there are probably more trains that operate without a fireman thanks to the corridor services. But there are still Amtrak trains that run with both an engineer and a fireman.
Click to expand...

But I thought the EB was the only train that still had a fireman. Do other LD trains still have one?


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## Ryan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> But I thought the EB was the only train that still had a fireman. Do other LD trains still have one?


Any train where the operating crew runs more than 6 hours.


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## jis

Ryan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I thought the EB was the only train that still had a fireman. Do other LD trains still have one?
> 
> 
> 
> Any train where the operating crew runs more than 6 hours.
Click to expand...

Right only for the crew districts that are longer than 6 hours. Not every crew district of the train.


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## Swadian Hardcore

jis said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I thought the EB was the only train that still had a fireman. Do other LD trains still have one?
> 
> 
> 
> Any train where the operating crew runs more than 6 hours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right only for the crew districts that are longer than 6 hours. Not every crew district of the train.
Click to expand...

Is there many crew districts over 6 hours? If it's that low, I expect quite a bit. Any examples of this?


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## jis

Whatever there is is out west AFAICT. I can't think of any east of Chicago.


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## AlanB

jis said:


> Whatever there is is out west AFAICT. I can't think of any east of Chicago.


Auto Train.


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## Anderson

Adirondack ALB-MTR.


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## Ryan

What's the next crew change south of ATL? I'm pretty sure I saw 2 guys getting out of the cab when we were waiting last time (of course it could have been a trainee or something too).


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## jis

Coming to think of it both 91/92 and 97/98 have two man crew from Jacksonville to/from Hamlet and Florence respectively too. Also 97/98 has Jacksonville to Miami.

For 19/20 crew change points are Charlottsville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Meridian


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## Swadian Hardcore

So there is a lot of routes that still have a fireman. This is good, always makes people feel secure. Many train accidents could have been avoided with two in the cab, the other one to watch out for problems. But the Hinton crash was really weird, the CN ran the duo-red anyway.


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## jis

MM&A has filed for bankruptcy....

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/234481-mma-bankruptcy-montreal-maine-atlantic-was-behind-lac-megantic-derailment/


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## Anderson

That took about a month. I'm actually surprised it happened so quickly...though I suspect it's largely preemptive considering what's ahead for that line.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Now let's hope their line won't get abandoned.


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## jis

MM&A has been ordered to cease operation in Canada effective August 20th....



> The Canadian Transportation Agency has ordered Montreal, Maine and Atlantic Railway Ltd. to cease operations in Canada Aug. 20 after determining it failed to secure adequate third-party insurance in the aftermath of the Lac-Mégantic disaster.


http://business.financialpost.com/2013/08/13/railway-at-centre-of-lac-megantic-tragedy-ordered-to-cease-operating-in-canada/


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## Swadian Hardcore

That's the end of the MM&A. A very quick end to the old main line. This took much less time than the shutodwn of Chinatown buses.


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## The Davy Crockett

Irving subsidiary might buy the MM&A according to the Financial Post.


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## CHamilton

> The Orford Express excursion service. ...normally runs over a portion of the MM&A between Eastman, Magog and Sherbrooke, Quebec (about 20-25 miles north of the Vermont border), and it’s making a special trip farther east to Lac-Megantic. Looks like it uses Budd Skyline domes and RDCs, probably ex-VIA or ex-CP equipment. Here’s the website: http://www.orfordexpress.com/en/home.htm



Lac-Megantic: Tourist train’s visit part of devastated town’s recovery


> The mayor of Lac-Mégantic announced Tuesday that trains will return to the Quebec town in two weeks, marking the first time since the July 6 train derailment that killed 47.
> In “a step towards reclaiming our town,” the mayor of Lac-Mégantic announced Tuesday that trains will return to the Quebec town later this month, the first time since the derailment disaster that killed 47 and wiped out a swath of the downtown core.
> 
> A regional train called the Orford Express will carry an estimated 5,000 people to Lac-Mégantic beginning Oct. 14, part of a tourist attraction that takes riders on routes throughout Quebec.
> The train will run on tracks a few kilometres outside the town, and bring passengers to a park beside the lake. Trips are scheduled during the last two weeks of October.
> “We’ve been through a tragedy. Nevertheless, we have to move forward and the Orford Express coming through Lac-Mégantic is a step towards reclaiming our town and an interesting occasion for (its) economy,” mayor Colette Roy Laroche said in a statement Tuesday.
> The plan for the tourist train was arranged before the July 6 disaster. Organizers met with town representatives after the derailment and decided the route should go ahead, as it would help bring visitors to the area.
> More than 2,000 tickets have already been sold, according to a Lac-Mégantic spokesperson.
> Just days after the disaster, Laroche urged tourists not to cancel their plans to visit the town, saying “if you want to help us, don’t abandon us.”


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## CHamilton

Lac-Mégantic Blast Leaves Impact On Town, Rail Industry



> ...Warning Signs
> 
> Adding to the pain and frustration, a growing number of experts and government officials in the U.S. and Canada say that there were plenty of warning signs long before disaster struck.
> 
> Robert Mercier, Lac-Mégantic's environment officer, says his office tried to raise questions about the Montreal, Maine and Atlantic Railway and its growing shipments of hazardous oils and chemicals.
> 
> "We were very worried about the conditions of the rail — we were talking about that many times," Mercier says. "It was a great concern about the train and the condition of the rail and all these tanks that were passing every day."
> 
> A Sub-par Freight Car
> 
> Since July, investigators in the U.S. and Canada have focused on a wide range of red flags — from the condition of the tracks, to the staffing level of these big industrial trains, to new evidence that the hazardous chemicals aboard the Lac-Mégantic train were mislabeled.
> 
> But much of the scrutiny has fallen on the type of freight car that erupted that day — the big, sausage-shaped tank car known in the industry as a DOT-111A.
> 
> "It's rigid, it's prone to derailment, and when it derails because of the coupling design, they're prone to puncture," says Lloyd Burton, a professor at the University of Colorado who studies rail transport of hazardous materials.
> 
> It turns out DOT-111A's make up two-thirds of the tank cars used in the U.S. and Canada — they're like the workhorse of the rail industry.
> 
> Thousands of them roll through towns and cities across America every day. And Burton says they're carrying increasing amounts of increasingly volatile crude oil and chemicals produced by North America's booming energy industry.
> 
> "The most dangerous crude, the highest sulfur crude, the most explosive and most flammable materials are being carried in tank cars," he says, "And they're being carried in tank cars that are simply not equal to the task."
> 
> Changing The Tanks
> 
> For decades, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board has been issuing strongly worded reports about the safety of these very same DOT-111A's, calling them "inadequate" for carrying "dangerous products."
> 
> Despite those warnings, the rail industry has resisted replacing its tank car fleet.
> 
> Newer double-hulled cars are expensive and railroad executives have argued that freight trains overall have a strong safety record. But last month, the CEO of one of North America's biggest railroads signaled a major shift.
> 
> Speaking on the Business News Network, Hunter Harrison — head of Canadian Pacific — said the disaster in Lac-Mégantic had changed the debate over DOT-111A's.
> 
> "Well, I think they'll be phased out as far as dangerous commodities. We're much more, rightfully so, sensitive about the environment today than we were when these cars were built," he said. "Shame on us as society."
> 
> Experts say phasing out DOT-111A's in North America would take at least five years.
> 
> Last month, the U.S. Department of Transportation launched a new rule-making process that could determine once and for all whether the industry will be forced to replace its tanker fleet. That review is now on hold because of the government shutdown in Washington.


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## CHamilton

Trains To Roll Through Devastated Quebec Town Again



> For the first time since a July 6 derailment that caused massive explosions and fires that killed 47 people, freight trains are due to roll again through Lac-Mégantic, Quebec, starting on Wednesday.


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## jerichowhiskey

MMA auction has been won by Fortress Investment Group who owns Florida East Coast Railway.

Article


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## The Davy Crockett

And just this week there was a derailment in PHL on CSX track over the Schuylkill River of the same type of crude that caused the inferno, but fortunately, no fire this time.


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## CHamilton

What we know and don’t know about the Lac-Mégantic derailment one year later


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## Swadian Hardcore

Philadelphia?! I'm glad it didn't explode.


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## CHamilton

TSB: Systemic problems lead to Lac-Mégantic train accident; additional safety measures needed




> The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) investigation into the July 2013 Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) train derailment in Lac-Mégantic, Quebec, concluded that a number of factors led to the accident.
> The TSB is also now calling for additional physical defenses to prevent runaway trains and for more thorough audits of safety management systems‎ to ensure railways are effectively managing safety.


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## fairviewroad

CBC airs recordings of the phone calls between the train's engineer and a dispatcher. I hadn't heard this before. Pretty chilling stuff:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/lac-m%C3%A9gantic-train-disaster-engineer-s-emergency-calls-released-1.2743386?cmp=rss

[Warning: some of the language in the audio recordings are NSFW]


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## CHamilton

Six former railway employees charged in Lac-Mégantic disaster


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## CHamilton

Quebec town ravaged by train fire wants railroad to get out


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## CCC1007

Again?

Where do they propose relocating it to?


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## fairviewroad

CCC1007 said:


> Again?
> 
> Where do they propose relocating it to?


If you read the article, it explains that the proposal is for seven miles of new track on a bypass around the town. Assuming there are no technical or geographic reasons why this couldn't be done, it is simply a matter of money. Obviously it's not feasible to move tracks away from every town and burg in North America, but I think a lot of people would be sympathetic to the residents of a small town where so many lives were lost.


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## CHamilton

Campbell: The lessons of Lac-Mégantic have not been learned

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/campbell-the-lessons-of-lac-megantic-have-not-been-learned


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## CHamilton

MMA train that derailed and exploded at Lac-Mégantic nearly 3,000 tonnes too heavy, trial hears
Former locomotive engineer François Daigle told jury he wasn't allowed to refuse to move overweight train

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mma-trial-train-overweight-1.4367611


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## Just-Thinking-51

Thanks for the update. Not sure what the weight has to do with the run-a-way train, other than you need to set more hand brakes. Which is one of the issues.


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## CHamilton

Arbitrator orders railway company to reinstate train engineer involved in Lac-Megantic tragedy

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/arbitrator-orders-railway-company-to-reinstate-train-engineer-involved-in-lac-megantic-tragedy-1.4262810#_gus&amp;_gucid=&amp;_gup=Facebook&amp;_gsc=e532hvh


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## John Bredin

When I saw this thread revived, I thought it was going to be about the _Bird Box_ controversy: that the show used video of the Lac-Megantic disaster as news video of a fictional disaster. Linky Another link.


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## fairviewroad

John Bredin said:


> When I saw this thread revived, I thought it was going to be about the _Bird Box_ controversy: that the show used video of the Lac-Megantic disaster as news video of a fictional disaster. Linky Another link.


Wow. I mean, I can sort of understand how the footage was included in the first place. An oversight, error, whatever. But the fact that Netflix is refusing to remove it is ludicrous. Accidentally profiting off of someone else's tragedy is one thing. Continuing to do so knowingly is abhorrent. Glad I'm not a Netflix customer.


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