# Business class on the Illini/Saluki is a ripoff



## Crowbar_k (Oct 17, 2020)

I booked a business class ticket on the Saluki, and instead of the normal single level coaches, the Superliners were used instead. Business class was just a normal section of the coach with a curtain separating it. You might just be better off booking a coach seat on the lower level instead.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 17, 2020)

Crowbar_k said:


> I booked a business class ticket on the Saluki, and instead of the normal single level coaches, the Superliners were used instead. Business class was just a normal section of the coach with a curtain separating it. You might just be better off booking a coach seat on the lower level instead.



Was it on the end of the train? It would still be a bit more quiet / less crowded correct?

I remember riding the Surfliner down to San Diego and buying BC and sad that it was just a horizon coach but I still felt like I got the advertised product. Just not the exact equipment I was hoping for.


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 17, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Was it on the end of the train? It would still be a bit more quiet / less crowded correct?


It was at the very front of the train, above the café. It was more quiet, but you can get the same experience by just booking a lower level ticket at less than half the cost.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 17, 2020)

Crowbar_k said:


> It was at the very front of the train, above the café. It was more quiet, but you can get the same experience by just booking a lower level ticket at less than half the cost.



I didn’t know Amtrak still had superliner coach with cafe underneath. I remember riding when those were on the Texas Eagle when I was a kid. Trip down memory lane!


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Oct 17, 2020)

Did you get any of the typical Business Class perks? Like complimentary soft drinks, a newspaper, and priority boarding?


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 17, 2020)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Did you get any of the typical Business Class perks? Like complimentary soft drinks, a newspaper, and priority boarding?


Yeah, I still got that stuff, but I was still really disappointed because everytime I rode an Amtrak train to St. Louis or Michigan, I would see the business class section of the cafe car and think "Man, some day I want to ride in there. It looks really nice." And this time I decided to go for it. Next time I will have to make sure that single level cars are being used.


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## sttom (Oct 17, 2020)

Business Class across the Amtrak system isn't consistent. Some trains have the 2+1 seating others are basically long distance coach with some extras thrown in. I would like it if Amtrak would make it the 2+1 S with the same amenities nationwide, but here's to hoping that who ever controls product development at Amtrak cares to make it the same.....someday. 

As for inconsistent, I know the Talgos on the Cascades has 2+1 and gives you drinks and a cafe car voucher. The Surfliner does the 2+2 with a snack pack. And then there are the trains with the Business Class section in the Cafe Cars and then there is the NER and Acela Business Classes.


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## PVD (Oct 17, 2020)

A large part of the inconsistency stems from states deciding what they will or will not pay Amtrak to provide on state supported routes/trains.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 17, 2020)

PVD said:


> A large part of the inconsistency stems from states deciding what they will or will not pay Amtrak to provide on state supported routes/trains.



Doesn’t make the inconsistency any less annoying for the paying customer.


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## PVD (Oct 17, 2020)

Of course. One of the major frustrations people have with Amtrak is their failure to lay out why things differ in a simple and concise manner, that regular customers might understand. Matter of fact, they usually don't even try to explain things at all.


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## sttom (Oct 17, 2020)

Amtrak could do more to convince the states to have a consistent Business Class product. Cause its not 100% on the states for this. Nationally owned equipment doesn't even have the same level of service. Business class on some trains is 2+2 and some is 2+1. And its not like Amtrak fares are priced differently if the equipment is different or if the amenities are slightly different for similar length trips. Amtrak can push the states to have a similar product offering over time. For example, a 2+1 seat arrangement and a snack pack along with the standard things like news papers, non alcoholic beverages and priority boarding. The snack packs aren't going to cost more than the $6 Cafe Car credit you get on routes where you don't get food and its not like the prices are radically different.


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 17, 2020)

Normally, I believe the Illini/Saluki, has the "normal" business class you find on other trains from Chicago. The 2+1 arrangement, and the big cushy leather seats with armrests in the middle, in the second half of the café car. Its just that they sometimes use the superliner equipment on that route for some reason (I believe they do it during the winter months). I'm still going to give business class a shot next time I ride the Lincoln Service.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 17, 2020)

Ironically I prefer superliner cars because the windows are bigger than those in horizon and amfleet cars. Legroom and seat comfort is similar.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 17, 2020)

On the low end Business class = coach on the Acela (2x2 seating, no food & beverage).

Most trains offer a decent hard product (2x1 seating at the end of the train) and a laughable soft product. (1 soft drink). 

The best business class offering is probably either Surfliner or Talgo since you can get free alcohol, free snacks, and it’s a decent hard product.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Oct 17, 2020)

Crowbar_k said:


> ... , I would see the business class section of the cafe car and think "Man, some day I want to ride in there. It looks really nice."



You mean those old cars, where 1/2 of the car is Business Class sitting in those leather "La-Z-Boy" recliners in the 2-1 configuration?

Those cars are pretty comfy, but I thought were also pretty rare (haven't been made in years).


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## PVD (Oct 17, 2020)

Not particularly rare, between Amfleet 1 and Horizon there are around 50. But Amfleets and Horizon haven't been made in years, that's not any different for the split cars. I use Empire Service a few times a year, they are on every train. (Not counting LSL and Adk, although each of them runs part or most of the Empire route)


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 17, 2020)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Those cars are pretty comfy, but I thought were also pretty rare (haven't been made in years).


If by rare you mean they are on almost all of the Illinois and Michigan trains and the Empire Service trains. Sure they are rare. 

Viewliner sleepers are rare too. Lol


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## me_little_me (Oct 17, 2020)

sttom said:


> Business Class across the Amtrak system isn't consistent. Some trains have the 2+1 seating others are basically long distance coach with some extras thrown in. I would like it if Amtrak would make it the 2+1 S with the same amenities nationwide, but here's to hoping that who ever controls product development at Amtrak cares to make it the same.....someday.


They plan to have that - and it might be sooner than you think. When all the trains but one are gone, the last train will have the same cars so the same amenities.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 17, 2020)

What consistency business class needs is to be consistently better than coach on the same train. For example, although business class on the Northeast Regional is 2X2 seating (except for 65,66,67 [most of the time]) not much different in terms of legroom than an Amfleet 2 coach, they don't run Amfleet 2 coaches on Northeast Regional trains. Thus, this business class is superior to the Amfleet 1 coaches on the same train with more legroom and window curtains, plus the free drink, for what that's worth. This is also true for the Carolinian, but not for the Palmetto and Pennsylvanian which have Amfleet 2 coaches in the coach section. In other trains (Vermonter, Ethan Allen, Empire service, Lakeshore Limited, Cardinal, midwest corridors [most of the time]), they use the 2 x 1 club cars, which are a superior hard product to coach. (Well maybe or maybe not, as they have fixed armrests, so you can't spread out on a seat pair in these days of getting 2 seats for the price of one due to reduced capacity on the trains.)

I agree that a "business class" section of a Superliner train with the exact same hard product as the coach section isn't really much of a value proposition. I have taken Business Class on the Palmetto, despite the fact that the hard product isn't too different from coach, because If fund that the business class section doesn't fill up the way the coaches do, and I have been able have both seats to myself all the way from Savannah to Baltimore. That might not be as relevant in these days under COVID operation, where they only book half the train anyway.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 17, 2020)

Part of what you’re realistically paying for is to be seated with passengers who don’t buy the cheapest ticket possible. 

I didn’t like riding with a group of just released prisoners on a Saluki train. So now I always pay for business class.


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 17, 2020)

I will be giving business class another shot because I will be taking the Lincoln Service soon and those seats look really comfy and it's a long way to St. Louis, so hopefully it will be worth the extra $25.


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 17, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I agree that a "business class" section of a Superliner train with the exact same hard product as the coach section isn't really much of a value proposition.


I honestly think just riding on the lower level is better, and its half the cost. Hopefully, they will stop the occasional use of the superliners on the Illini/Saluki ounce the new Venture cars are put in service.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 17, 2020)

PVD said:


> A large part of the inconsistency stems from states deciding what they will or will not pay Amtrak to provide on state supported routes/trains.





crescent-zephyr said:


> Doesn’t make the inconsistency any less annoying for the paying customer.





PVD said:


> Of course. One of the major frustrations people have with Amtrak is their failure to lay out why things differ in a simple and concise manner, that regular customers might understand. Matter of fact, they usually don't even try to explain things at all.


Amtrak does not need a list of explanations for why they can't make one train like another. What they need is a standard regional contract that gives customers predictable benefits at a price states can afford. I don't expect perfection but I do expect something similar to how regional contract service is handled by national airlines.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 18, 2020)

Amtrak's business class product is all over the place on a soft and hard product spread. And honestly it is a bit of a joke. You don't see Airlines with ten different versions of it. 

Acela: Business class is 2-2 Seats. No amenities. It is just a nice name to make the "Elite" passengers feel like they are part of the elite despite being equivalent to a European 2nd Class Car. 

Carolinian: 2-2 Seats in an Amfleet I car the rest of the train is also Amfleet I so this is a slight hard product upgrade, a pillow, complimentary drinks (Up to the discretion of the LSA, I've wanted something and been told to pay for the item 50 percent of the time), and a dedicated business class attendant (Is this really a perk).

Cascades: 2-1 Seats on the Talgo. A coupon for food or beverage from the Cafe worth $3, priority boarding at PDX, SEA, and VAC. As well as priority at customs at VAC. 

Coast Starlight: 2-2 Seats on a Superliner. Literally the same layout as coach, but the chairs have leather instead of cloth. Priority boarding in SEA, PDX, small coupon for food/beverage on board the train. 

Downeaster: 2-1 Seats on an Amfleet I/Cafe. Free drinks. 

New York State Trains (Ethan Allan Express, Empire Corridor, Maple Leaf): 2-1 Seats on an Amfleet I/Cafe. Free drinks on trains that offer meal service (Anything west of Albany), nothing on the NYP-ALB turns. 

Illinois/Michigan/Missouri Trains: Generally it is a 2-1 Amfleet or Horizon car split with the cafe. Sometimes substitutions occur however. Complimentary coffee and tea, lounge access, dedicated attendant (not an amenity). 

Lake Shore Limited: 2-1 Seating in an Amfleet I Cafe Split Car. Free drinks, Lounge access at Chicago. 

Northeast Regional: 2-2 Seats on Amfleet I. Maybe free drinks but the website isn't clear, and I refuse to spend the extra money for it normally. 

Pacific Surfliner: 2-2 Seats on a California Car. Free Glass of wine, free drinks, snack pack, lounge access (LAX), priority boarding (SAN), and a dedicated attendant. Most importantly a reserved seat.

Palmetto: 2-2 Seats in an Amfleet I which has more seats than the Amfleet II coaches in the same consist. Complimentary drinks (again see comment about varying on the items). 

Pennsylvanian: 2-2 Seats in an Amfleet I which has more seats than the Amfleet II coaches in the same consist. Complimentary drinks (again see comment about varying on the items). 

Vermonter: 2-1 Seating in an Amfleet I Cafe Split Car. Free Drinks. 

When you look at this its very unprofessional how there are 5 different hard products. Then look at the various soft products of which there are 6 ranging from nothing to something great like the Pacific Surfliner. We all try to make excuses for Amtrak's lack of consistency but that doesn't matter to someone who uses Amtrak for transportation from point A to point B, they aren't fans. They don't care if there is a valid reason for a service. If they buy a ticket to go from SAN-LAX for a flight to New York, then connect to an Acela for NHV or PRV they are experiencing two vastly different soft products. One is amazing, and one is in name only. 

Look at United Airlines they offer two business class products. Polaris which is the best of the best, and United Business. No two types are on the same aircraft, and for the most part Polaris isn't in the domestic market so it doesn't effect the business class here. Soft product: Food/Drinks are free (including alcohol), free checked bags, priority security, outlets, and other nicities. But the thing is if you board one UA flight from CLT-ORD, and then connect ORD-DEN, DEN-PDX the product is 100 percent consistent between the three flights. 

There is no good reason for Amtrak to have the many different varieties of business class. They need to pick one single hard product and stick with it. My recommendation is 2-1 Seating. Yes there are fewer seats on an all 2-1 Car on the NEC but you will get a better yield, as you can sell more tickets at a higher bucket as people always will upgrade if they can. Next they need to pick one single soft product that befits the extra charge I would argue the Cascades or the Pacific Surfliner offer the best soft product. 

If Amtrak could do that they would have a very good business class product that would get higher yields, and have consistency.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 18, 2020)

Raise your hand if you’ve been told that you ordered your free business class drink incorrectly.


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## Thunder (Oct 18, 2020)

We can give you single level cars on the Saluki . You can follow all the restrictions brought on by the CN and be consistently late 

the venture cars will be on all state routes in the Midwest and then we can go back to 70/60 with those trains.

had Nippon produced a quality product, we would have had bilevels and it would have been glorious to watch CN try to figure out a way to gig them trains.

but here we are


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## Sidney (Oct 18, 2020)

2 to 1 seating should be standard in all business class. You are paying for an upgrade and having a seat with nobody next to you should be a guarantee. Also a free alcoholic beverage should be across the board.


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## PVD (Oct 18, 2020)

States often have options beyond Amtrak. Greater standardization of offerings might be a laudable goal, but that doesn't mean it is achievable. I stand by the idea that if their are going to be differences, they can and should do a better job of explaining the differences, and why they exist.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 18, 2020)

PVD said:


> Greater standardization of offerings might be a laudable goal, but that doesn't mean it is achievable.



What is not acheivable about creating a soft product standard? 

If california wants to do something above and beyond that standard, that’s fine. But the standard should be the same for all things labeled business class.


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## PVD (Oct 18, 2020)

If the standard is something the state does not want or is not willing to pay for it isn't going to happen. As an example, NY does not pay for cafe service on trains that don't go past Albany. A reasonable standard is a free drink or soft drinks/coffee. But you can't have it because NY won't pay for it.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 18, 2020)

PVD said:


> If the standard is something the state does not want or is not willing to pay for it isn't going to happen. As an example, NY does not pay for cafe service on trains that don't go past Albany. A reasonable standard is a free drink or soft drinks/coffee. But you can't have it because NY won't pay for it.



Than NY doesn’t get a business class product. Simple.


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## PVD (Oct 18, 2020)

Or NY gets someone else to run their trains. Amtrak doesn't hold all the cards, or have all the power. They need the states for many reasons, not the least of which is the support of their congressional delegations. Just be upfront and tell people this is what your state has chosen to offer. If the passengers want something different they can deal with their local elected officials and push for change.


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## Larry H. (Oct 18, 2020)

I have used the business class on the Saluki many times and its always been as shown in the photo above a few messages. The last time we rode it there was a remodeled car like it, with an excellent attendant who went way out of his way to be friendly and helpful. That part is unusual. He told me that Amtrak had told the attendents that unless they gave the customers good service they might not be working those cars. That was a couple years back though by now, I wonder what happened to him?


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 18, 2020)

Larry H. said:


> I have used the business class on the Saluki many times and its always been as shown in the photo above a few messages. The last time we rode it there was a remodeled car like it, with an excellent attendant who went way out of his way to be friendly and helpful. That part is unusual. He told me that Amtrak had told the attendents that unless they gave the customers good service they might not be working those cars. That was a couple years back though by now, I wonder what happened to him?



I’ve had good business class attendants on that route. I’ve had some really bad ones on the Michigan line. Not sure if that’s luck or just how those routes are staffed.


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 18, 2020)

I actually remember reading an article a couple years ago about all the inconsistencies about Amtrak's business class. I believe this is it: Amtrak's Business Class too often isn't worth the extra fare - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms


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## Mailliw (Oct 18, 2020)

What's the business class setup on the new Siemens Venture coaches?


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 18, 2020)

Mailliw said:


> What's the business class setup on the new Siemens Venture coaches?


They will have the 2+1 seating.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 18, 2020)

PVD said:


> Greater standardization of offerings might be a laudable goal, but that doesn't mean it is achievable.





crescent-zephyr said:


> Than NY doesn’t get a business class product. Simple.





PVD said:


> If the standard is something the state does not want or is not willing to pay for it isn't going to happen.


They can solve this problem by creating a new category like _Premium Economy_ for states that decline to pay the cost of _Business Class_. If a state wants to go all out that could be called _First Class_ and so on. First Class on American Eagle is not exactly like First Class on American Airlines but it's predictable enough that it doesn't create a major issue for most customers. It doesn't have to match these specific names but Amtrak would not be out of line in standardizing service levels and then expecting states to pick one from a selection rather than reinventing the wheel over and over again. Half of the problem with fixing Amtrak is convincing people it does not have to be this way.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 18, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> First Class on American Eagle is not exactly like First Class on American Airlines but it's predictable enough that it doesn't create a major issue for most customers.



Hard product wise American Eagle has 2-1 and AA has 2x2. 

Soft product wise both offer free drinks and snacks. I’ve not been on an AE long enough to get anything beyond the snack basket so not sure how the meals compare.


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## jiml (Oct 18, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Hard product wise American Eagle has 2-1 and AA has 2x2.
> 
> Soft product wise both offer free drinks and snacks. I’ve not been on an AE long enough to get anything beyond the snack basket so not sure how the meals compare.


Very few AE airplanes have substantial galleys and none that I know of have ovens, so hot food is not an option. (This differs on other airlines, which do offer hot meals on regional jets.) On longer routes (pre-Covid) they've had decent salad plates and sandwiches however.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 18, 2020)

jiml said:


> Very few AE airplanes have substantial galleys and none that I know of have ovens, so hot food is not an option. (This differs on other airlines, which do offer hot meals on regional jets.) On longer routes (pre-Covid) they've had decent salad plates and sandwiches however.



I kept hearing the AE cheese plate was pretty good. I actually love the AE planes I’ve been on. Maybe there are some older ones in the mix, but the ones I’ve flown on were brand new and the seats were more comfortable than AA or Delta BC.


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## Deni (Oct 18, 2020)

Crowbar_k said:


> I will be giving business class another shot because I will be taking the Lincoln Service soon and those seats look really comfy and it's a long way to St. Louis, so hopefully it will be worth the extra $25.


I find it is worth it on IL trains. I went to college down in Macomb a thousand years ago and still go down to visit one of my best friends a couple times a year. While I was in school the business class didn't exist (and it was still unreserved coach) and I wouldn't have been able to afford the extra $$$ anyway. But once that got added it's the only way I travel the IL Zephyr or Sandburg now. That train can be full of rowdy college kids and/or drunk Cubs fans so the quiet of the business class is well worth it. Though just like when I traveled coach I still often end up sitting at a cafe table most of the time because I like talking to people.


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## jiml (Oct 18, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I kept hearing the AE cheese plate was pretty good. I actually love the AE planes I’ve been on. Maybe there are some older ones in the mix, but the ones I’ve flown on were brand new and the seats were more comfortable than AA or Delta BC.


I was sad to see them retire the E-190's. They had the best FC cabin, largest galley and best in-flight service (e.g. real glasses) in the AE portfolio.


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 18, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Delta BC.



Delta's regional jets that offer First Class service have 2+1 seating and have free drinks with at least one passing of the snack basket with a nice variety of items including bananas.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 18, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> Delta's regional jets that offer First Class service have 2+1 seating and have free drinks with at least one passing of the snack basket with a nice variety of items including bananas.



I just said that the AE planes I’ve been on had more comfortable seats. Also the delta regional I’ve been on were 2x2. Deltas BC is fine though.


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## Dakota 400 (Oct 18, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> the delta regional I’ve been on were 2x2. Deltas BC is fine though.



I think it depends on the route as to what the seating arrangements are. My most experience is the DAY-DTW and DAY-MSP. On flights to DTW, First Class is not available, normally. On flights to MSP, First Class 2+1 seating is available, normally. I agree that both domestic and international Business Class on Delta is very good to excellent.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 18, 2020)

I don't fly as often as some and I switch airlines more than most, but I can reasonably anticipate my experience on American Eagle or Delta Connection whether I'm flying a short haul route out of one state or another and that's what makes choosing them easy. If regional airlines can meet national service standards so can Amtrak. I think it's more about a desire to standardize and the will to make it part of the next contract negotiation. At the moment everyone (customers, Amtrak, and state budgets) seems to be losing out due to a lack of compelling and predictable service standards. Obviously standards change over time, and there will be special outlier circumstances here and there, but moving between one state and another shouldn't require an open letter to fellow travelers to figure out what to expect.


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## Siegmund (Oct 19, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I didn’t know Amtrak still had superliner coach with cafe underneath. I remember riding when those were on the Texas Eagle when I was a kid. Trip down memory lane!



The roster suggests 9 snack coaches still exist, and that they are always used on the Heartland Flyer; where the others are probably depends what other short-haul runs are currently using Superliners.

They were used Portland-Seattle before the Talgos were built (and, in the 80s, on long Coast Starlights to take some pressure off the lounge car.) There weren't many Midwest short distance Superliner runs except as early 80s equipment tests. Someone more familiar with recent Chicago operations could perhaps tell us where they have been used lately?


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 19, 2020)

That makes sense. I’ve always wanted to ride the heartland flyer just for the miles. Now I have another reason to do it.


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 19, 2020)

Siegmund said:


> There weren't many Midwest short distance Superliner runs except as early 80s equipment tests. Someone more familiar with recent Chicago operations could perhaps tell us where they have been used lately?


I asked the conductor because I was curious. He claimd that it is their winter fleet. They mentioned something to do with pipes freezing. I don't believe that, because the amfleets and horizons are still used on all the other regional lines out of Chicago year round.

Also, the Pere Marquette uses superliners.


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## PVD (Oct 19, 2020)

Horizons have a reputation for winter issues, SL swaps have happened in the past.


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## jiml (Oct 19, 2020)

Siegmund said:


> The roster suggests 9 snack coaches still exist, and that they are always used on the Heartland Flyer; where the others are probably depends what other short-haul runs are currently using Superliners.
> 
> They were used Portland-Seattle before the Talgos were built (and, in the 80s, on long Coast Starlights to take some pressure off the lounge car.) There weren't many Midwest short distance Superliner runs except as early 80s equipment tests. Someone more familiar with recent Chicago operations could perhaps tell us where they have been used lately?


They were a common sight in the latter Superliner days of the International - usually behind VIA power. We didn't rate a Sightseer lounge.


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## Thunder (Oct 19, 2020)

Yes pipes will freeze. Remember, every winter is the first time winter ever hits Chicago.
we were going to get t shirts that said “ I survived Chicago Central Divisions first winter 2014” and make it an annual thing.
cant wait to see what first winter 2020 brings


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## MARC Rider (Oct 19, 2020)

Sidney said:


> 2 to 1 seating should be standard in all business class. You are paying for an upgrade and having a seat with nobody next to you should be a guarantee. Also a free alcoholic beverage should be across the board.


Depends how busy the BC service is. I've ridden BC on a 2-1 seating car where the only seats available are next to someone. In other words, even with 2-1 seating, you don't get a "guarantee" that you can sit by yourself.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 19, 2020)

If I could have been guaranteed a window seat on Acela, I would have paid for 1st class.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 19, 2020)

As I wrote before, I don't think that business class needs to be consistent across the system, as long as it's an upgrade from the coach offering. Thus, they really need to do something to upgrade business class on the Palmetto and the Pennsylvanian. And if the business class equipment is bad-ordered, and you have to ride in coach, then you should get your accommodation charge refunded, just as they do when there's a sleeping car bad-ordered and the unfortunate passengers have to ride in coach.


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## jiml (Oct 19, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> And if the business class equipment is bad-ordered, and you have to ride in coach, then you should get your accommodation charge refunded, just as they do when there's a sleeping car bad-ordered and the unfortunate passengers have to ride in coach.


I've had (and lost) that argument. Apparently BC on Amtrak is technically not an "accommodation charge".


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Oct 19, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Raise your hand if you’ve been told that you ordered your free business class drink incorrectly.



Like how? "I am a coach passenger and I demand a free drink!" ???

The attendant happily knows to hand me a 1/2 size can of warm soda. For those who are paying, they get a full size can of cold soda.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 19, 2020)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Like how? "I am a coach passenger and I demand a free drink!" ???
> 
> The attendant happily knows to hand me a 1/2 size can of warm soda. For those who are paying, they get a full size can of cold soda.


Actually, they've been giving out full size cans for a while now. And they'll always give you a cup full of ice to go with your drink. But when I travel, I usually get coffee, and the give out the same cup of Joe that they give to the paying guests.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 19, 2020)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Like how? "I am a coach passenger and I demand a free drink!" ???
> 
> The attendant happily knows to hand me a 1/2 size can of warm soda. For those who are paying, they get a full size can of cold soda.



I ordered my bottle of water with my food and that was incorrect. I was told I needed to order what I wanted to pay for separately from my 1 complimentary drink. He also was upset that I put the cap on his pen after signing for my credit card receipt because I also had to sign for my free water.


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## Steve4031 (Oct 19, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I ordered my bottle of water with my food and that was incorrect. I was told I needed to order what I wanted to pay for separately from my 1 complimentary drink. He also was upset that I put the cap on his pen after signing for my credit card receipt because I also had to sign for my free water.



And he would be upset when I didn’t tip.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 19, 2020)

I would be curious in @NSC1109 's opinion on this. I know on previous threads he has agreed with me on a uniform paint scheme and uniform branding. So I would love to hear your two cents on this issue.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 19, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I don't think that business class needs to be consistent across the system, as long as it's an upgrade from the coach offering.


Why bother to call it Business Class then? Why not call it _Lottery Class_ with a scratch-off ticket to see what you get?


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## sttom (Oct 20, 2020)

I really doubt a state would drop Amtrak as an operator if they decided to standardize their seat offerings. Out of all the things Amtrak does that should and sometimes does get the ire of state DOTs and Congress, but seat options aren't likely to be on the list so long as their are options for the states. 

As far as regional trains go, having a coach option, coach plus for those that don't want to pay for business class, a business class offering and first class on the off chance someone wants them, isn't a step too far. Having a consistent offering would probably help them gain ridership rather than lose it. And this would be down to potential riders knowing what to expect. If they see Coach plus instead of business class, they would know by the name that they're not the same. Instead of getting two different soft products under the same name.


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## Willbridge (Oct 20, 2020)

Crowbar_k said:


> I actually remember reading an article a couple years ago about all the inconsistencies about Amtrak's business class. I believe this is it: Amtrak's Business Class too often isn't worth the extra fare - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms


I have an article in Linked In about it although it's kind of dated.


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## Willbridge (Oct 20, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> As I wrote before, I don't think that business class needs to be consistent across the system, as long as it's an upgrade from the coach offering. Thus, they really need to do something to upgrade business class on the Palmetto and the Pennsylvanian. And if the business class equipment is bad-ordered, and you have to ride in coach, then you should get your accommodation charge refunded, just as they do when there's a sleeping car bad-ordered and the unfortunate passengers have to ride in coach.


I've been bustituted out of Business Class when the PTC failed. It was only PDX to SLM and then SLM to PDX so I wasn't going to hassle Amtrak about it but no employee commented or suggested that I could get a partial refund.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 21, 2020)

PVD said:


> If the standard is something the state does not want or is not willing to pay for it isn't going to happen. As an example, NY does not pay for cafe service on trains that don't go past Albany. A reasonable standard is a free drink or soft drinks/coffee. But you can't have it because NY won't pay for it.



Before the pandemic broke out, NYS was prepared for food service between Albany and NYC. Staffed hired prepare levels.


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## PVD (Oct 21, 2020)

That would be a big improvement. Hope it happens when things normalize. It has been a long time coming...It just bolsters my premise that very often service level differences are often state decisions, not Amtrak.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 21, 2020)

Most definitely State issue. “The Governor wants he gets.” Was how it was explained.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 21, 2020)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Most definitely State issue. “The Governor wants he gets.” Was how it was explained.



I should hope The Governor is not that concerned with Amtrak business class food offerings. Lol.


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## PVD (Oct 21, 2020)

The Empire Service Cafe is adequate (in my view) for the routes it was open, but having no service on the NYP-ALB trains, which have decent ridership I never liked.


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## NSC1109 (Oct 21, 2020)

Alas, the slippery slope.....



> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> > Delta's regional jets that offer First Class service have 2+1 seating and have free drinks with at least one passing of the snack basket with a nice variety of items including bananas.
> ...



As a Delta ACS employee: DAY-DTW is usually operated by a CRJ-200. The "Deuce Canoe" barely counts as an aircraft; it's a glorified Greyhound bus that breaks far too often. Glad we're finally getting rid of it. 

As for the other DCI fleet types: Both the CRJ-700/900 and ERJ-170/175 have first/business class seating. I've never worked an ERJ but I can tell you that the CRJ seating is 2+1 with pillows, blankets, drinks, and a snack pre-COVID. I'd imagine it's not too different on the ERJ. It doesn't vary just of aircraft type but also on aircraft operator. You have SkyWorst (our pet name for SkyWest), wholly-owned carrier Endeavor, and Republic. Endeavor only operates the CRJs, Republic only ERJs, and SkyWest a mixture of both. Originally the plan was to keep SkyWest out, well, west (SLC, SEA, LAX), Endeavor taking the midwest/south (DTW, MSP, ATL), and Republic handling the northeast (JFK/LGA/BOS) with a little overlap (Skywest handling EAS routes and Republic doing some work to/from IND since that's their home base). It would've provided a (generally) standard FC/BC service depending on the region. 




Crowbar_k said:


> I asked the conductor because I was curious. He claimd that it is their winter fleet. They mentioned something to do with pipes freezing. I don't believe that, because the amfleets and horizons are still used on all the other regional lines out of Chicago year round.
> 
> Also, the Pere Marquette uses superliners.



This is correct. The Horizons are notorious for freezing in the winter, but Amtrak doesn't have enough Superliners to cover every Chicago Hub Network corridor service, so they just suffer with the delays. Not a great way to run a railroad, but it's what they have. 



Seaboard92 said:


> I would be curious in @NSC1109 's opinion on this. I know on previous threads he has agreed with me on a uniform paint scheme and uniform branding. So I would love to hear your two cents on this issue.



I generally agree with most everything that's been said so far. The airlines have very little trouble standardizing their FC/BC services as much as they reasonably can with various regional operators. However, the one thing I will mention that's different is that most airlines aren't getting their funding from the state. Some services don't really require a business class or first class service on their routes, like the Shuttle. 

That being said, a standardized business class/first class service really shouldn't be that hard to do. It goes back to the unified branding I've been preaching about for a while. It gives your customers a seamless, universal experience. They know what to expect. They know what's offered and what isn't. Understandably not every state is going to pay for BC/FC service but for the ones that do, there's really no good excuse for not having a universal product available. The *one *exception would be differing fleet types (i.e., swapping Horizons for Superliners due to weather conditions or California using dual-level cars instead of single level). The layout may be different, but the same basic services should be offered. 

Amtrak would do well to recruit some marketing and corporate image folks from the airline industry, preferably Delta. From my experience, these guys know what they're doing. No stone is unturned, they ensure that every. single. piece. matches. There's a short video out there somewhere of the DL/NW merger. One night, the ticket counters still had all their NWA signage and the next morning it all was DL. A transition so seamless, you could've sworn it was Delta the whole time. 

It's unfortunate that Amtrak just doesn't have the institutional knowledge needed for something like this.


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## jiml (Oct 21, 2020)

NSC1109 said:


> As a Delta ACS employee: DAY-DTW is usually operated by a CRJ-200. The "Deuce Canoe" barely counts as an aircraft; it's a glorified Greyhound bus that breaks far too often. Glad we're finally getting rid of it.


 I thought only Canadians felt that way. AC's have no J class and the only decent seats are the 4 bulkheads, for which they charge extra. Never flown one without a substantial departure delay "for mechanical reasons" and they're the only choice on some stupidly long routes.


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## NSC1109 (Oct 21, 2020)

jiml said:


> I thought only Canadians felt that way. AC's have no J class and the only decent seats are the 4 bulkheads, for which they charge extra. Never flown one without a substantial departure delay "for mechanical reasons" and they're the only choice on some stupidly long routes.



The US airline management folks love 'em. The passengers and ground crews...less so. Kinda hard to feel the "Delta Difference" when your shoulder is shoved up against the sidewall outcropping and you can't look out the window without breaking your neck. 

We had a 200 break so badly a month ago the powers that be decided to send us a 900 in its place. It's been months since we've seen one and we almost threw a party.


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## jiml (Oct 21, 2020)

NSC1109 said:


> The US airline management folks love 'em. The passengers and ground crews...less so. Kinda hard to feel the "Delta Difference" when your shoulder is shoved up against the sidewall outcropping and you can't look out the window without breaking your neck.
> 
> We had a 200 break so badly a month ago the powers that be decided to send us a 900 in its place. It's been months since we've seen one and we almost threw a party.


Toronto to Kansas City with half a can of Coke for $700. Just sayin'...


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 21, 2020)

NSC1109 said:


> I generally agree with most everything that's been said so far. The airlines have very little trouble standardizing their FC/BC services as much as they reasonably can with various regional operators. However, the one thing I will mention that's different is that most airlines aren't getting their funding from the state. Some services don't really require a business class or first class service on their routes, like the Shuttle.
> 
> That being said, a standardized business class/first class service really shouldn't be that hard to do. It goes back to the unified branding I've been preaching about for a while. It gives your customers a seamless, universal experience. They know what to expect. They know what's offered and what isn't. Understandably not every state is going to pay for BC/FC service but for the ones that do, there's really no good excuse for not having a universal product available. The *one *exception would be differing fleet types (i.e., swapping Horizons for Superliners due to weather conditions or California using dual-level cars instead of single level). The layout may be different, but the same basic services should be offered.
> 
> Amtrak would do well to recruit some marketing and corporate image folks from the airline industry, preferably Delta. From my experience, these guys know what they're doing. No stone is unturned, they ensure that every. single. piece. matches.



What I would like to know is how the Airlines are able to get a reasonably similar product over various routes, aircraft types, and operators in their system? I've long wondered about how they manage that because it is hard to get a standardly consistent product with one or two variables but when you have multiple companies involved it gets very complicated. 

You are exactly there are routes that don't need business class even with Amtrak namely the Keystones, Hiawatha, or Capitol Corridor. I think even with the various types of equipment Amtrak has it makes no sense to not have a unified hard product. Airlines I understand why you can't have a single unified product because different planes have different dimensions and they serve different markets. But for the most part on the rails every car is a standard 850 sq ft. Now that isn't all usable when you factor in restrooms, and vestibules but it's consistent. 

I agree some of the airline corporate image folks are needed in the worst way. I think a lot of problems could be fixed with that.


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## NSC1109 (Oct 21, 2020)

jiml said:


> Toronto to Kansas City with half a can of Coke for $700. Just sayin'...



That experience ain’t worth more than $30 and even then I wouldn’t pay it, just so I could avoid flying the Deuce. 



Seaboard92 said:


> What I would like to know is how the Airlines are able to get a reasonably similar product over various routes, aircraft types, and operators in their system? I've long wondered about how they manage that because it is hard to get a standardly consistent product with one or two variables but when you have multiple companies involved it gets very complicated.
> 
> You are exactly there are routes that don't need business class even with Amtrak namely the Keystones, Hiawatha, or Capitol Corridor. I think even with the various types of equipment Amtrak has it makes no sense to not have a unified hard product. Airlines I understand why you can't have a single unified product because different planes have different dimensions and they serve different markets. But for the most part on the rails every car is a standard 850 sq ft. Now that isn't all usable when you factor in restrooms, and vestibules but it's consistent.
> 
> I agree some of the airline corporate image folks are needed in the worst way. I think a lot of problems could be fixed with that.



It’s a little above my pay grade but there is an entire team of people in Atlanta that focus solely on the customer experience. We even have an ACS branding and signage guide that covers literally everything from the location of the “Travel to [insert city here]” sign in the airport to the ground support equipment. Exact and acceptable locations on where to put the Delta logo, equipment ID, etc. It’s amazing what these guys do. I’m sure it’s divvied up by functionality (ACS, In-Flight, etc) but that is their sole focus. There’s even a uniform guide for below and above wing ACS employees that goes far beyond what you see in Amtrak’s OBSSM. As for how it ends up on the regional fleets: it’s put in a contract known as a Capacity Purchase Agreement (CPA). “We give you X dollars for Y seats with A,B,C amenities” etc etc etc.


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## railiner (Oct 21, 2020)

NSC1109 said:


> Amtrak would do well to recruit some marketing and corporate image folks from the airline industry, preferably Delta.


We know how well that worked out with Richard Anderson, former Delta CEO...


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 21, 2020)

NSC1109 said:


> It’s a little above my pay grade but there is an entire team of people in Atlanta that focus solely on the customer experience. We even have an ACS branding and signage guide that covers literally everything from the location of the “Travel to [insert city here]” sign in the airport to the ground support equipment. Exact and acceptable locations on where to put the Delta logo, equipment ID, etc. It’s amazing what these guys do. I’m sure it’s divvied up by functionality (ACS, In-Flight, etc) but that is their sole focus. There’s even a uniform guide for below and above wing ACS employees that goes far beyond what you see in Amtrak’s OBSSM. As for how it ends up on the regional fleets: it’s put in a contract known as a Capacity Purchase Agreement (CPA). “We give you X dollars for Y seats with A,B,C amenities” etc etc etc.



Now if there was a dream job for me it would be writing the OBSSM for any airline or Amtrak. I was talking with a friend the other night about a service he is wanting to start somewhere and he commented "I can't wait to see your Service Standards Manual" because I was very detailed in my expectations for my stewards. And my methodology of using friends and family on Non Rev tickets to grade crews in the field of whom the crews wouldn't know. 

I can imagine Delta or any of the airlines are very particular about signage and branding from the moment you enter the airport all the way to the moment you exit the airport. I wonder if there is a copy of the Delta SSM as I would love to read it and model the one I'm working on for the PV I'm working with on it.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 21, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> Now if there was a dream job for me it would be writing the OBSSM for any airline or Amtrak. I was talking with a friend the other night about a service he is wanting to start somewhere and he commented "I can't wait to see your Service Standards Manual" because I was very detailed in my expectations for my stewards. And my methodology of using friends and family on Non Rev tickets to grade crews in the field of whom the crews wouldn't know.
> 
> I can imagine Delta or any of the airlines are very particular about signage and branding from the moment you enter the airport all the way to the moment you exit the airport. I wonder if there is a copy of the Delta SSM as I would love to read it and model the one I'm working on for the PV I'm working with on it.



If employees followed the Amtrak service manual, we would have great service.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 21, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> If employees followed the Amtrak service manual, we would have great service.



If management enforced the Amtrak service manual we would have improved service. Not great I think there are some things I would want to rewrite.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 21, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> If management enforced the Amtrak service manual we would have improved service. Not great I think there are some things I would want to rewrite.



Have you studied leadership or are you just wanting to copy the Pullman employee guidelines?


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 21, 2020)

railiner said:


> We know how well that worked out with Richard Anderson, former Delta CEO...


You're probably just joking around but the part that made the Anderson experience so annoying for me wasn't that he came from Delta. It was that nothing I _enjoyed_ about flying Delta ever seemed to come with him. Delta's service standards used to languish near the bottom of the pack, but they continued to improve over the years and eventually rose to the top. Whoever implemented the service upgrades in that turnaround would have been a great addition to Amtrak. Instead we suffered a series of service downgrades in exchange for a corn syrup consolation prize.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 21, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> You're probably just joking around but the part that made the Anderson experience so annoying to me wasn't that he came from Delta. It was that nothing I _enjoyed_ about flying Delta ever seemed to come with him. Delta's service standards used to languish at the bottom of the pack but they continued to improve a lot over the years and eventually rose to the top. Whoever managed the upgraded service aspects of that turnaround would have been a great addition for Amtrak. Instead we suffered a bunch of service downgrades in exchange for a corn syrup consolation prize.



Agreed. Delta even has little regional nods like the black and white cookie out of New York City. When planes get delayed, they come around with an iPad and check with passengers about connections.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 21, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Have you studied leadership or are you just wanting to copy the Pullman employee guidelines?



I actually have studied leadership and various service standards for multiple operations abroad. I've studied extensively the service standards of the Grand Express Russia over the last eight months. It is quite the impressive operation. I have also researched their competitors at RZD and Tver Express (d.b.a Metropolis). ÖBB's NightJet is an interesting property as well. 

I have to say one of the most detailed Service Standard Manuals belongs to VIA Rail Canada. If you want a copy of it shoot me a message I'll be happy to share it.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 21, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I have to say one of the most detailed Service Standard Manuals belongs to VIA Rail Canada. If you want a copy of it shoot me a message I'll be happy to share it.



I know that I hit when morale was low (right after the Canadian dropped to 2 trains a week I think, the first winter they did that.). But I wasn’t that impressed with the VIA crews I had. I’m glad I rode when I did before they messed up the park cars though.

I don’t think you get better customer service by having better manuals. You have to hire the right people, inspire them, and give them freedom to add a personal touch. When this happens on Amtrak, it’s the best of the best. Gul is a great example as well as Nanette from the parlor car days and several others I’ve had over the years. There should be standards that are followed and there should be consistency, but not a rigid set of rules like the Pullman porters were expected to follow.


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## Night Ranger (Oct 21, 2020)

"As a Delta ACS employee: DAY-DTW is usually operated by a CRJ-200. The "Deuce Canoe" barely counts as an aircraft; it's a glorified Greyhound bus that breaks far too often. Glad we're finally getting rid of it. "

Last month I spent 45 minutes on a CRJ-200 to get to a connecting hub. Next time I'll drive the 2 or so hours or better still, ride an actual Greyhound. It was the most uncomfortable flight I have ever experienced. The only saving grace was that it was so short. I have never been as cramped and squished in an airplane seat in my life.


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## CameraObscura76 (Oct 22, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> Amtrak's business class product is all over the place on a soft and hard product spread. And honestly it is a bit of a joke. You don't see Airlines with ten different versions of it.
> 
> Acela: Business class is 2-2 Seats. No amenities. It is just a nice name to make the "Elite" passengers feel like they are part of the elite despite being equivalent to a European 2nd Class Car.
> 
> ...



I took BC on the Starlight to Seattle, I got neither leather seating nor the coupon. I did however get access to the Parlour car for what ended up being the first and last time experiencing it. I haven’t taken BC since because honestly what am I paying the extra for?


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## NSC1109 (Oct 22, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> You're probably just joking around but the part that made the Anderson experience so annoying for me wasn't that he came from Delta. It was that nothing I _enjoyed_ about flying Delta ever seemed to come with him. Delta's service standards used to languish near the bottom of the pack, but they continued to improve over the years and eventually rose to the top. Whoever implemented the service upgrades in that turnaround would have been a great addition to Amtrak. Instead we suffered a series of service downgrades in exchange for a corn syrup consolation prize.



Service standards didn’t come from just Anderson. Before he took over Delta, he was at Northwest, who had a relatively crappy customer service experience but was, from an operations standpoint, one of the best airlines in the world. crescent-zephyr is correct, neither a CEO or a manual will change the culture of service Amtrak has. You need the right people who will make it happen and have some freedom to fix a situation when it arises.


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## railiner (Oct 22, 2020)

A CEO the likes of Herb Kelleher, or Gordon Bethune (“from worst to first”), would make a difference, although they would admittedly have a harder time changing Amtrak’s ingrained culture...


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## sttom (Oct 22, 2020)

NSC1109 said:


> That being said, a standardized business class/first class service really shouldn't be that hard to do. It goes back to the unified branding I've been preaching about for a while. It gives your customers a seamless, universal experience. They know what to expect. They know what's offered and what isn't. Understandably not every state is going to pay for BC/FC service but for the ones that do, there's really no good excuse for not having a universal product available. The *one *exception would be differing fleet types (i.e., swapping Horizons for Superliners due to weather conditions or California using dual-level cars instead of single level). The layout may be different, but the same basic services should be offered.


Standardizing across Amtrak would be far easier than with an airliner. Airlines have different widths to deal with, Train cars pretty much have a similar internal dimensions between them. Bi level cars would likely be the best candidates since you could put a galley in the lower level of a Superliner style car and have the upper level all be seating. But swapping them wouldn't be a big deal so long as Amtrak had a decent enough pool to pull from. There is no reason why the type of car should dictate what the "Business Class" upgrade actually is.

As for hiring airline people to do some of this, the time may be now, a lot of airline people are out of a job currently and Amtrak is trying to get more funding. 



Seaboard92 said:


> You are exactly there are routes that don't need business class even with Amtrak namely the Keystones, Hiawatha, or Capitol Corridor. I think even with the various types of equipment Amtrak has it makes no sense to not have a unified hard product. Airlines I understand why you can't have a single unified product because different planes have different dimensions and they serve different markets. But for the most part on the rails every car is a standard 850 sq ft. Now that isn't all usable when you factor in restrooms, and vestibules but it's consistent.



Whether or not a route *should* have an upgrade over coach is a matter of opinion. And in mine, if Amtrak runs a train, it should have an upgrade over coach and in the case of overnight trains should have a lie flat seat called business class as well. Other than budget airlines, pretty much all of them will offer some sort of upgrade over coach system wide, Amtrak shouldn't think or act any differently. Choice riders that are willing to pay more help pay the bills and Amtrak should be doing more to attract them as well as people who are sick of taking Greyhound. You don't grow your market share by appealing to only one type of customer and having a Business Class or Coach Plus option is one way to do that. 



railiner said:


> A CEO the likes of Herb Kelleher, or Gordon Bethune (“from worst to first”), would make a difference, although they would admittedly have a harder time changing Amtrak’s ingrained culture...



We frankly need people like them on the board, but the qualifications to get on the Board seem to be political connections, not being outstanding in your field.


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 23, 2020)

Personally, I think the trains that have the business/cafe car should be called First Class, because it honestly seems to be closer to first class on the Acela than the other business class options. Of course if they do that, they would probably feel that that would allow them to jack up the price.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 23, 2020)

Crowbar_k said:


> Personally, I think the trains that have the business/cafe car should be called First Class, because it honestly seems to be closer to first class on the Acela than the other business class options. Of course if they do that, they would probably feel that that would allow them to jack up the price.



Do you mean the 2-1 seating?


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## Crowbar_k (Oct 23, 2020)

Yes. And the seats look similar.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 23, 2020)

Crowbar_k said:


> Yes. And the seats look similar.



I see what you are saying, but First Class should include unlimited drinks (alcohol included) as well as food service. That's what first-class means when you fly, it should be the same on Amtrak and it is with Acela. 

I do like the 2-1 seating. Even when having a seatmate you don't ever feel like you're sitting right next to someone like in the 2x2 layout.


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## Crowbar_k (Nov 20, 2020)

The "business class" section of the train.


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## Steve4031 (Nov 20, 2020)

I could deal with that if they only sell half the seats so everyone gets a window seat.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 20, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> I could deal with that if they only sell half the seats so everyone gets a window seat.


Redacted.


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## Larry H. (Nov 25, 2020)

The answer to that window question was answered years ago by many rail roads. This is the GM&O parlor car from St. Louis to Chicago which I rode many times. Some of them had a fan tail section on the rear, others just a door. The chairs all swiveled so you could talk to the person next to you or across the aisle or look out the window what ever you chose. Nice heavy overstuffed chairs made it more comfortable than the half plastic seating today. And the attendant was always around and would brush your cloths as you got off or shine your shoes while in route. He would bring your drinks or food from the diner which was usually to the front of this car which ran on the back all the time. Photo didn't copy to well but you can get the idea.


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## caravanman (Nov 25, 2020)

Most folks who want to ride an enhanced "class" mostly want to feel superior to the regular crowd, in my humble opinion. 
I took a day return trip from Chicago to Detroit, very enjoyable visit, but I noticed on the way back, that the business class coach was fully packed, where as us more humble poor folk had two seats each, and as much elbow room as we desired!


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## Seaboard92 (Nov 25, 2020)

Larry H. said:


> The answer to that window question was answered years ago by many rail roads. This is the GM&O parlor car from St. Louis to Chicago which I rode many times. Some of them had a fan tail section on the rear, others just a door. The chairs all swiveled so you could talk to the person next to you or across the aisle or look out the window what ever you chose. Nice heavy overstuffed chairs made it more comfortable than the half plastic seating today. And the attendant was always around and would brush your cloths as you got off or shine your shoes while in route. He would bring your drinks or food from the diner which was usually to the front of this car which ran on the back all the time. Photo didn't copy to well but you can get the idea. View attachment 19648




I've actually worked several cars with that arrangement before. They are great cars but horrible to pass thru when serving when people like the one in the picture want to have their legs in the aisle. But I have always preferred this style of seating to what Amtrak calls Business Class


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## AmtrakFlyer (Nov 25, 2020)

I always paid for a roomette from Lax to San Jose (day trip) just for use of the Parlour car and the included lunch and dinner. Well worth the $103+/- upgrade over coach. Best experience Amtrak ever offered in my opinion. Now we have no Parlour Car and thanks to covid no lunch or dinner to speak of. 

Going forward hopefully the next regime can get V2 dinners used as true diners on some trains and a true business class lounge on others.

I’m pretty sure there’s 4 excess Sightseers or CCC’s sitting around that can be modestly upgraded to replace the Parlour cars on the CSL and maybe expanded to the EB or Zephyr. What I’m saying is make a product that people will pay $100, $200 or more to upgrade to and then go home and rave to their friends about...


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## IndyLions (Nov 25, 2020)

caravanman said:


> Most folks who want to ride an enhanced "class" mostly want to feel superior to the regular crowd, in my humble opinion.
> I took a day return trip from Chicago to Detroit, very enjoyable visit, but I noticed on the way back, that the business class coach was fully packed, where as us more humble poor folk had two seats each, and as much elbow room as we desired!



What I’m mostly looking for is a quiet environment. A good percentage of the time you get that in BC - even if it is full. In Coach - it’s more of a crapshoot.

Also - I know if there is a 2 + 1 seating arrangement, I probably have a reasonable chance of snagging a solo seat for more privacy if traveling alone.

Better seats and other perks (coffee, drinks) are a bonus - but for me don’t factor nearly as high in the value proposition.


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## jiml (Nov 25, 2020)

AmtrakFlyer said:


> I’m pretty sure there’s 4 excess Sightseers or CCC’s sitting around that can be modestly upgraded to replace the Parlour cars on the CSL and maybe expanded to the EB or Zephyr.


Interesting idea.

FWIW several Sightseer lounge cars have been making guest appearances in California Surfliner consists in the last few weeks (for those who follow railcams). Maybe the regular lounge cars are out for maintenance?


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 25, 2020)

AmtrakFlyer said:


> I’m pretty sure there’s 4 excess Sightseers or CCC’s sitting around that can be modestly upgraded to replace the Parlour cars on the CSL and maybe expanded to the EB or Zephyr. What I’m saying is make a product that people will pay $100, $200 or more to upgrade to and then to home and rave to their friends about...



Amtrak didn’t retire the PPC Cars... they cut the ppc service and blamed it on the cars old age. They could provide the ppc service at anytime with ssl cars if they wanted to.


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## IndyLions (Nov 25, 2020)

AmtrakFlyer said:


> I always paid for a roomette from Lax to San Jose (day trip) just for use of the Parlour car and the included lunch and dinner. Well worth the $103+/- upgrade over coach. Best experience Amtrak ever offered in my opinion. Now we have no Parlour Car and thanks to covid no lunch or dinner to speak of.


I couldn’t agree more. Best (full) day trip I ever spent on Amtrak was on the CSL from LAX to OAK in a Roomette. Access to the Metropolitan Lounge in LA, privacy when I wanted it, access to the Lounge car and two fine meals enjoying others’ company. Great value.



AmtrakFlyer said:


> Going forward hopefully the next regime can get V2 dinners used as true diners on some trains and a true business class lounge on others.
> 
> I’m pretty sure there’s 4 excess Sightseers or CCC’s sitting around that can be modestly upgraded to replace the Parlour cars on the CSL and maybe expanded to the EB or Zephyr. What I’m saying is make a product that people will pay $100, $200 or more to upgrade to and then to home and rave to their friends about...



To build on your post - purchase new equipment for most of the LD routes. That frees up the current pool of Superliners and Viewliners for refurbishment and the ability to create a true Business Class product with reconfigured BC cars. Limit the Superliners to the Zephyr, Builder & Starlight. Limit the Viewliners to the Crescent, LSL, Meteor and Night Owl.

With that equipment pool, those trains can always have enough sleepers, an extra diner and an extra lounge in peak season. In offseason, much needed maintenance is performed to keep them in much better condition than they can today.


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## Larry H. (Nov 25, 2020)

caravanman said:


> Most folks who want to ride an enhanced "class" mostly want to feel superior to the regular crowd, in my humble opinion.
> I took a day return trip from Chicago to Detroit, very enjoyable visit, but I noticed on the way back, that the business class coach was fully packed, where as us more humble poor folk had two seats each, and as much elbow room as we desired!



Its not a matter of superiority, rather a wish to have less noise and distractions. The Saluki carries in normal times 6 cars full of college students and personally I just prefer to not deal with all of that.


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## TRoberts (Nov 26, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I've actually worked several cars with that arrangement before. They are great cars but horrible to pass thru when serving when people like the one in the picture want to have their legs in the aisle. But I have always preferred this style of seating to what Amtrak calls Business Class



I'm not sure if I would like that for a regular business class, the seats are very comfortable but it's not very private. 
I think the 2x1 seating is ideal.


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## railiner (Nov 26, 2020)

Larry H. said:


> The answer to that window question was answered years ago by many rail roads. This is the GM&O parlor car from St. Louis to Chicago which I rode many times. Some of them had a fan tail section on the rear, others just a door. The chairs all swiveled so you could talk to the person next to you or across the aisle or look out the window what ever you chose. Nice heavy overstuffed chairs made it more comfortable than the half plastic seating today. And the attendant was always around and would brush your cloths as you got off or shine your shoes while in route. He would bring your drinks or food from the diner which was usually to the front of this car which ran on the back all the time. Photo didn't copy to well but you can get the idea. View attachment 19648


Now that’s what I would call a real first class parlor car, with those supremely comfortable Heywood-Wakefield “Sleepy Hollow” rotating recliners.
There was usually a wall mounted drop down table for each seat. Some roads ordered optional “wings” for the headrests.
There was also a call button to summon the porter for services...


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## AmtrakFlyer (Nov 26, 2020)

To be politically incorrect but at the same time realistic the minimal charge of a business class ticket with no amenities at least keeps the Greyhound type clientele away. Anyone whose traveled semi regularly on Amtrak especially long distance has seen the conductor have to call a local sheriff/law enforcement to deal with a troublemaker or pot head. It’s not superiority it’s just a case of it is what it is.



Larry H. said:


> Its not a matter of superiority, rather a wish to have less noise and distractions. The Saluki carries in normal times 6 cars full of college students and personally I just prefer to not deal with all of that.


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 26, 2020)

Larry H. said:


> The answer to that window question was answered years ago by many rail roads. This is the GM&O parlor car from St. Louis to Chicago which I rode many times. Some of them had a fan tail section on the rear, others just a door. The chairs all swiveled so you could talk to the person next to you or across the aisle or look out the window what ever you chose. Nice heavy overstuffed chairs made it more comfortable than the half plastic seating today. And the attendant was always around and would brush your cloths as you got off or shine your shoes while in route. He would bring your drinks or food from the diner which was usually to the front of this car which ran on the back all the time. Photo didn't copy to well but you can get the idea. View attachment 19648



I experienced a Parlor Car once during a trip on the Dakota 400 of C&NW. My Mother had not booked such and I don't remember how we were seated in the Parlor Car, but that's where we were. Maybe the coaches were filled to capacity when the train left Chicago? It was a pleasant experience and obviously remains memorable for me.


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## Palmetto (Nov 26, 2020)

Rode parlor cars many times on the _Merchants Limited _parlor cars between Boston and GCT. Great ride, and the surcharge to do so was only $2,67 back in the 60s.


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## Willbridge (Nov 26, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> Rode parlor cars many times on the _Merchants Limited _parlor cars between Boston and GCT. Great ride, and the surcharge to do so was only $2,67 back in the 60s.


I rode the _Merchants Limited _parlor car in September 1971 just before Labor Day from NYP to NHV. It was a nice ride but there were only seven passengers. There was a group of women from the garment industry talking shop and a lawyer going to spend the long weekend with his family in their Maine summer home (they would drive to Boston to pick him up).

The funny part is that the lawyer thought that Oregon was a desert. He had visited the family's ranch property near Lakeview by flying commercial to Boise and then in a chartered prop plane across the desert to the ranch. I explained to him that most people had the opposite impression -- wet, green forests. It all depended on point of view.

In New Haven I talked with the agent. He was thrilled that the nice equipment from the Western roads would become available now that they were no longer needed (my home town Portland went from four daily trains east to zero).

I returned to NYP in coach. Food service was a Penn Central snack coach. The lone woman who was staffing it told me that she used to supervise an all-woman crew on New Haven cafe cars in the _Yankee Clipper_.


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 26, 2020)

AmtrakFlyer said:


> To be politically incorrect but at the same time realistic the minimal charge of a business class ticket with no amenities at least keeps the Greyhound type clientele away. Anyone whose traveled semi regularly on Amtrak especially long distance has seen the conductor have to call a local sheriff/law enforcement to deal with a troublemaker or pot head. It’s not superiority it’s just a case of it is what it is.



One trip on the Illini / Saluki surrounded by just released prisoners headed for Chicago is what made me always click “add business class” when purchasing tickets.


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## railiner (Nov 26, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> I rode the _Merchants Limited _parlor car in September 1971 just before Labor Day from NYP to NHV. It was a nice ride but there were only seven passengers. There was a group of women from the garment industry talking shop and a lawyer going to spend the long weekend with his family in their Maine summer home (they would drive to Boston to pick him up).
> 
> The funny part is that the lawyer thought that Oregon was a desert. He had visited the family's ranch property near Lakeview by flying commercial to Boise and then in a chartered prop plane across the desert to the ranch. I explained to him that most people had the opposite impression -- wet, green forests. It all depended on point of view.
> 
> ...


The Merchant's Limited was at one time, an _all_ parlor car train, with a diner, and an observation bar lounge, during its hayday...no coaches.


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## bms (Nov 27, 2020)

railiner said:


> The Merchant's Limited was at one time, an _all_ parlor car train, with a diner, and an observation bar lounge, during its hayday...no coaches.



Wow! Of course there were numerous all-Pullman and all-coach trains, but I never heard of an all parlor car train! You have blown my mind!


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## railiner (Nov 27, 2020)

bms said:


> Wow! Of course there were numerous all-Pullman and all-coach trains, but I never heard of an all parlor car train! You have blown my mind!



IIRC, the LIRR even had one...its weekend only 'Cannonball', to Montauk was an all-parlor car train at one time...


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## railiner (Nov 27, 2020)

Forgot to mention that in addition to the open parlors, the Merchants also had daytime drawing rooms that I believe seated up to seven, for private meetings...


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## Willbridge (Nov 27, 2020)

railiner said:


> The Merchant's Limited was at one time, an _all_ parlor car train, with a diner, and an observation bar lounge, during its heyday...no coaches.


In its glory days it departed Boston and GCT at the same time. I looked through the scheduled parlor car runs and concluded that some of them only made one single direction trip a day, a train that cost a lot of money to operate. The early jet age equivalent would be the United "Men Only Executive Flights" with Caravelles departing New York City and Chicago in the same after-work martini time slot.


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## Palmetto (Nov 27, 2020)

railiner said:


> Forgot to mention that in addition to the open parlors, the Merchants also had daytime drawing rooms that I believe seated up to seven, for private meetings...




And day roomettes, as well. Unfortunately, when I rode them in the late 60s, track conditions were not optimum, and both drawing room and roomettes were located over the wheels.


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## Crowbar_k (Feb 3, 2021)

This guy pointed out the same problem: Amtrak Illini Service 393: Chicago to Carbondale (Business Class) w/ SUPERLINERS / Disappointing?? - YouTube


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 3, 2021)

Crowbar_k said:


> I will be giving business class another shot because I will be taking the Lincoln Service soon and those seats look really comfy and it's a long way to St. Louis, so hopefully it will be worth the extra $25. View attachment 19320



Business class is definitely inconsistent across Amtrak... many times it's the amenities you don't see such as extra points and flexibility with travel... although really... if you plan ahead ... that's not worth much. Amtrak points out on its website that business class varies by train.

An alternative on trains that have very little distinguishable service is the 'quiet car.' No extra cost; but all must abide by the 'quiet' guidelines.

All this being said, I personally like the 2 x 1 seating where it's available... and definitely would pay extra for it. Beyond that the free [non alcoholic] drink is just not worth the extra fare.

Best amenities 'award' goes to the Pacific Surfliner where you get a complete snack pack, unlimited non alcoholic drinks, plus one complementary wine. But the seating is the same as coach.  









Amtrak Business Class Seating


Enjoy the exclusive amenities that come with traveling in Business Class — an affordable, enhanced experience offered on many of our trains across the country.




www.amtrak.com


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## Crowbar_k (Feb 3, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Business class is definitely inconsistent across Amtrak... many times it's the amenities you don't see such as extra points and flexibility with travel... although really... if you plan ahead ... that's not worth much. Amtrak points out on its website that business class varies by train.
> 
> An alternative on trains that have very little distinguishable service is the 'quiet car.' No extra cost; but all must abide by the 'quiet' guidelines.
> 
> ...


Well, if you are traveling out of Chicago, you get access to that Awesome lounge. They gave me an extra Coke and snacks.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 3, 2021)

Crowbar_k said:


> Well, if you are traveling out of Chicago, you get access to that Awesome lounge. They gave me an extra Coke and snacks.


Yes, lounge access is a definite plus! The Metropolitan Lounge in LAX is one of the finest in the Amtrak system. Nowhere else can you get those very large chocolate chip cookies... fruit, chips, and more. Comfy seating... and a chance to talk with other travelers and a great start to a Surfliner trip!


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## jiml (Feb 3, 2021)

Crowbar_k said:


> This guy pointed out the same problem: Amtrak Illini Service 393: Chicago to Carbondale (Business Class) w/ SUPERLINERS / Disappointing?? - YouTube


Apart from the commentary on Business Class, that is one of the better video documentations of physically moving that train out of Chicago.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 3, 2021)

AmtrakFlyer said:


> To be politically incorrect but at the same time realistic the minimal charge of a business class ticket with no amenities at least keeps the Greyhound type clientele away. Anyone whose traveled semi regularly on Amtrak especially long distance has seen the conductor have to call a local sheriff/law enforcement to deal with a troublemaker or pot head. It’s not superiority it’s just a case of it is what it is.


This is not so much of a problem on the Northeast Regional, where the fares only seem cheap in comparison with the Acela. Thus, even the coach riff-raff on the Northeast Regional are suit-wearing business types who usually are quite well behaved. Northeast Regional business class does have the advantage that is fills up more slowly than coach, so you have a better chance of a seat to yourself, there is lots more legroom, the seats recline farther, and there are curtains on the windows. And I always make it my business to get at least one cup of the comped coffee. Still, I wouldn't mind if they put 2x1 seating in the full-length cars (which they appear to9 be doing for the Siemens Venture cars).


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## MARC Rider (Feb 3, 2021)

Palmetto said:


> Rode parlor cars many times on the _Merchants Limited _parlor cars between Boston and GCT. Great ride, and the surcharge to do so was only $2,67 back in the 60s.


Was that a $2.67 surcharge over the regular coach fare or over a higher first class fare?
I recently looked at PRR fares on the NEC South in a circa 1967 timetable and the basic coach fare, PHL-NYP was $4.30, but a parlor car was $6.74 for the rail fare and $1.40 for the parlor car seat, making a total of $8.14 for the entire fare. Thus, the parlor car was almost twice the regular coach fare.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 3, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> This is not so much of a problem on the Northeast Regional, where the fares only seem cheap in comparison with the Acela. Thus, even the coach riff-raff on the Northeast Regional are suit-wearing business types who usually are quite well behaved.



Agreee. I don’t pay extra for BC on the regionals but I do on the Illinois and Michigan trains just because of the clientele. Plus I do like the 2+1 seating.

In California I’ll pay extra for a reserved seat since I have been on a packed Surfliner where I was scolded for not giving up my seat for a lady who sss having to stand in the aisle.


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## Palmetto (Feb 3, 2021)

$2.67 over the coach fare, IIRC.


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## SubwayNut (Feb 3, 2021)

Pacific Surfliner Buissiness class (especially leaving from LAX with lounge access) is such a good value. Just before the pandemic my partner and I on a longer trip needed to go from LAX to Oceanside, such a good use of a $50 travel voucher for me (lost a dollar, because tickets were $49) after chicago forgot to load our luggage on a trip home to South Bend (on $25 ticket) and diving into my AGR points for her ticket.

It's the only route I'll pay for buissiness class on.


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## Larry H. (Feb 4, 2021)

The attendant can make all the difference as well as the condition of the car. On the Saluki Chicago to Carbondale at peak times its filled with college kids who are somewhat rowdy at times. Some of them use the Business car as well. The last trip I had on it the Business Class car was a remodeled one in nice shape, the attendant who is probably gone by now was one of the finest I have run into on that route. He was overly helpful, asking if you needed anything and offering the drinks that come with the ticket. He didn't just hide in the cafe counter and snarl at passengers as sometimes happens. He told me that he was relatively new and wanted to give the best service he could under the circumstances, and that they were being trained to do just that. He also commented that if the employees didn't do that they might be removed from the passenger cars. That was a couple years ago by now, I wonder what its like today?


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## Cal (Feb 10, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I didn’t know Amtrak still had superliner coach with cafe underneath. I remember riding when those were on the Texas Eagle when I was a kid. Trip down memory lane!


I know those are in regular use on the Heartland Flyer. They will be on an Illinois Service if they are using superliners I believe. And I'm pretty sure one will be on the Cascades when they use superliners.


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## Crowbar_k (Feb 11, 2022)

Update. Now the business class uses the refreshed superliner coaches. Here are a couple pictures I took.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 11, 2022)

Crowbar_k said:


> Update. Now the business class uses the refreshed superliner coaches. Here are a couple pictures I took.
> View attachment 27152
> View attachment 27153


Yup... I know as do many others... frequently and on some services business class is actually a downgrade when the pre assign seats... you are stuck next to a perhaps unpleasant traveler... sometimes in the aisle... and can't change... and on top of all that... the seats are no different than coach.

The two - one seating arrangement found on some trains is much better... but Amtrak is famous for it's inconsistency so one needs to be very careful when spending extra cash for something that may be inferior to the regular coach seating that costs less. Nope... it doesn't make any sense at all!


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 12, 2022)

RE the "riffraff" factor - sometimes in BC you get the guy who spends the entire trip conducting business in a loud voice over his cell phone. Not sure that is any better.


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## CaptPete 43 (Feb 13, 2022)

Business Class should be universally 2 plus 1 seating. Further to that, passengers wishing to use a mobile phone should move to the vestibule like in Japan.


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