# The "Missing" Pacific Parlour Car in Illinois



## rtabern (Jun 15, 2011)

A couple of weeks ago I got to tour a rail facility outside of St. Louis that has a lot of old Amtrak equipment... including a lot of the old Santa Fe Hi-Level equipment parked out there... including the "missing" Pacific Parlour Car that was never refurbished (#39971)... Amtrak Buffet Cars... and even an Empire Builder car that was wrecked in the mid-80's at Fall River, WI... two ex-Amtrak slumber coaches... and the shell of the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran on the CB&Q between Burlington, IA and Hannibal, MO.

The facility is normally strictly off-limits... even to railfans... but the owner is a friend of a friend so I was able to get in there and get some pictures of everything.

Inside the un-refurbished PPC: http://rtabern.shutterfly.com/18207

All photos: http://rtabern.shutterfly.com/17974

Personally, I think it's a shame Amtrak didn't just refurbish a 6th PPC -- that way they could have had a "protect" PPC in LA and SEA. Now, if something happens to your PPC and its gets bad ordered... you'll get a Cross-Country Cafe replacement.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 15, 2011)

Great shots. Thanks for sharing.


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## printman2000 (Jun 15, 2011)

Is this a company or an individual who owns this equipment? Why do they have it? To sell? or to collect?


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## WhoozOn1st (Jun 15, 2011)

Forget Amtrak, get a load of that Burlington Zephyr shell!!


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## GG-1 (Jun 15, 2011)

Aloha

Shot 67 I like that table arrangement.

it looked like some of those cars could be back in service without to much work. Is any work being done, or is this storage until a buyer is found. Or worse are they waiting to be scraped.

I vaguely think I remember one of the PRR cars, the William Penn. If it ran from Philadelphia to Consohhocken, I think I rode it to visit my aunt when I was under 10. If not that I may have seen in in Penn Station NYC while I lived there 5 years later.

Mahalo for sharing.

Eric


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 15, 2011)

printman2000 said:


> Is this a company or an individual who owns this equipment? Why do they have it? To sell? or to collect?


It's a company that buys and sells rail cars. So if you've got the money, put in a bid for a favorite car.


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## printman2000 (Jun 15, 2011)

MikefromCrete said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Is this a company or an individual who owns this equipment? Why do they have it? To sell? or to collect?
> ...


Looking at Google maps, it appears they own just about every hi-level ever made! (besides the active PPC's)


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## Gratt (Jun 15, 2011)

These shots are amazing! :wub: They really should do paid tours (even if it is something like one weekend a month).

It would bring in a small amount of steady revenue, and more importantly tons of free advertising, I know the private rail market is kind of small and close group but this could still bring in potential outsiders and clients on the fence. Tell your "friend of a friend" they should do it


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## AlanB (Jun 15, 2011)

rtabern said:


> Personally, I think it's a shame Amtrak didn't just refurbish a 6th PPC -- that way they could have had a "protect" PPC in LA and SEA. Now, if something happens to your PPC and its gets bad ordered... you'll get a Cross-Country Cafe replacement.


While I agree that it's a shame that they didn't keep that PPC, Amtrak sold that car longer before the refurbishments.


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## Anderson (Jun 15, 2011)

So are those shots of the inside of the unrefurbished hi-level lounge what they looked like back in the 50s/60s?

Also...that company's presence explains the pristine Budd cars I passed on the Mule back in March outside of STL.


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## bretton88 (Jun 15, 2011)

Illinois had the right idea for these hi-levels a few years back. They where going to have them refurbished and placed into service on the Illinois corridor routes (especially Chi-Stl) at less than a million a piece, supposedly there's over 50 Hi-levels that could have been put into service (Rtaburn can say whether there was that many there). But sadly, the funding never made it out of the statehouse. Now all that fed money is going into buying new bilevel cars, so these HI-levels will probably never run again. It would have been a cheap way to do massive capacity improvements on existing routes.


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## Anderson (Jun 15, 2011)

Ok, deadly serious question: Why the [bleep] is anyone buying Talgo trainsets at Lord-only-knows how much when we have 50 hi-levels sitting in a train yard in quite serviceable condition? For that matter...what would it cost to get a set of these refurbished for, oh, I don't know...the Coast Daylight? Or the Trans-Dominion Express that's been kicking around Richmond for a few years (the one entirely within Virginia...I think the plan is something like RVR-CVS-Roanoke)? Or maybe even as a "supplemental" to the Cardinal that gets slapped on in DC (since they're flat out of capacity for a number of intermediate cities)? All I will say is...good _grief_, this burns me up.


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## Ryan (Jun 15, 2011)

Serviceable condition? They look pretty rough to me. I'll bet that you can buy a new trainset for what it would take to buy these and get them into running condition.

Amtrak's fleet strategy is pretty emphatic about the fact that they're tired of dealing with 50+ year old mismatched equipment and are trying to get away from it as fast as they can.

Thanks for sharing the pictures, they were pretty incredible.


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## bretton88 (Jun 15, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Ok, deadly serious question: Why the [bleep] is anyone buying Talgo trainsets at Lord-only-knows how much when we have 50 hi-levels sitting in a train yard in quite serviceable condition? For that matter...what would it cost to get a set of these refurbished for, oh, I don't know...the Coast Daylight? Or the Trans-Dominion Express that's been kicking around Richmond for a few years (the one entirely within Virginia...I think the plan is something like RVR-CVS-Roanoke)? Or maybe even as a "supplemental" to the Cardinal that gets slapped on in DC (since they're flat out of capacity for a number of intermediate cities)? All I will say is...good _grief_, this burns me up.


Amtrak has been asked about these before. Each time they have said that they DO NOT want another old set of cars. Even if they where completely refurbished, maintenance costs on these cars would still be high, as VIA rail has discovered. However, they also said that the states are welcome to buying and having Amtrak run these cars for their service if they want them, provided the state pays for the cost of getting the cars running again. Amtrak can conveniently charge them higher prices for use of their shops to cover the increased maintenance costs. Illinois did look into using these cars for their service a few years ago. But funding never materialized to make it happen. It would have been about a million per car to make them usable again.


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## Ryan (Jun 15, 2011)

Amtrak would much rather the states buy new cars.

From the Fleet Strategy Plan (page 45 where they discuss why they plan on scrapping the cars once retired):



> It was noted that the fleet is already older than desirable and, by the time of retirement, this situation will only be worse. The value of the vehicles on the open market will be very low and the scrap value will probably be better. *Moreover, Amtrak does not wish to operate these vehicles once they are retired.* Should they be acquired by a third party that than requests Amtrak to operate them, the point of disposal would have been circumvented.


If Amtrak has no desire to operate their current cars once retired, you can imagine they'd be even less interested in operating even older cars brought back from the dead.


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## Anderson (Jun 15, 2011)

Well, in both cases which I'm mentioning, you've generally got the state buying the cars...it's a matter of the source. To offer an example, switching these in for the Hiawatha service would be a cheap enough way to get your more frequent CHI-MKE service...and depending on the costs of maintenance, it may make sense in a 10-20 year rail plan to refurbish these and pay an extra X in upkeep rather than buy new cars outright.


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## Gratt (Jun 15, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Amtrak would much rather the states buy new cars.
> 
> From the Fleet Strategy Plan (page 45 where they discuss why they plan on scrapping the cars once retired):
> 
> ...


I could understand if that is their view for the baggage cars (god only knows why they did not replace them with an old mail or box car) but I hope they do not scrap the diners. I could see a private groups wanting them, first as fixed restaurant, and also in private hands for excursions, in the latter case I doubt they would be used more than a few times a year, even at their age if a 1920's pullman car can handle a few trips so can these dinners, Amtrak would be short sighted to scrap them.


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## Larry H. (Jun 15, 2011)

I wonder what the motive is for hoarding these cars is if there is no hope of anyone running privately owned passenger trains again?


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jun 15, 2011)

I would be curious to what the place is asking, especially for the more Exotic cars such as the Hi Level Lounge. Of course for a resto, the base price is only a tiny portion of what an overall rebuild may cost. For example, on Ozark Mountain, I have seen some cars that are pretty worse for the wear priced well under $10,000.

Not all the Hi Levels live here as a few are parked in plain view just kitty-korner to Fair Park in Dallas. I venture to guess they came from the _Heartland Flyer_ which until a few years ago had 2 in consist along with the Superliner Snack Coach. That place also has a couple Slumbercoaches in early Amtrak livery. Next time I'm down there, I'll have to swing by.


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## boxcar479 (Jun 15, 2011)

Those probably belong to the Dallas RR museum.They are in the process of moving that museum to Frisco Tx. They had an old Pulman car on display and information about the move in Dallas on NTD


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jun 15, 2011)

boxcar817 said:


> Those probably belong to the Dallas RR museum.They are in the process of moving that museum to Frisco Tx. They had an old Pulman car on display and information about the move in Dallas on NTD


I don't think these belong to the RR Museum as they are on the opposite end of the Park (over by McDonalds for those who know the area). Someone told me that property belongs to a railway equipment broker.


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## rtabern (Jun 16, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Serviceable condition? They look pretty rough to me. I'll bet that you can buy a new trainset for what it would take to buy these and get them into running condition.
> 
> Amtrak's fleet strategy is pretty emphatic about the fact that they're tired of dealing with 50+ year old mismatched equipment and are trying to get away from it as fast as they can.
> 
> Thanks for sharing the pictures, they were pretty incredible.


I cant really speak for the running condition of the cars, but from the inside... most looked in pretty good shape. A couple of coaches look like they could still be in service if you didnt know any better (or see the April 1997 Amtrak magazines sticking out of them). Before the trip down there last month, I had no idea that Amtrak had buffet-style dining cars... I sorta like that concept because you could choose what you wanted to have. Then again, I'm a sucker for Ponderosa and those Buffet places... haha.

But yes, that was the point, the owner(s) were planning on IL buying them for return to service.

It was sad to see the PPC just sitting there...


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## rtabern (Jun 16, 2011)

AlanB said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I think it's a shame Amtrak didn't just refurbish a 6th PPC -- that way they could have had a "protect" PPC in LA and SEA. Now, if something happens to your PPC and its gets bad ordered... you'll get a Cross-Country Cafe replacement.
> ...


Do you know the timetable? I'm curious...

A friend who works for Amtrak told me that he thought #39971 was never a Pacific Parlour Car officially... however... it had the PPC logo on the side of the car by the door.

I, too, thought the PPC name came with the refurbished cars... but obviously I was wrong... since this car was called a PPC, but was un-refurbished.


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## rtabern (Jun 16, 2011)

bretton88 said:


> Illinois had the right idea for these hi-levels a few years back. They where going to have them refurbished and placed into service on the Illinois corridor routes (especially Chi-Stl) at less than a million a piece, supposedly there's over 50 Hi-levels that could have been put into service (Rtaburn can say whether there was that many there). But sadly, the funding never made it out of the statehouse. Now all that fed money is going into buying new bilevel cars, so these HI-levels will probably never run again. It would have been a cheap way to do massive capacity improvements on existing routes.


I'd say maybe 30-35 Hi-levels... but 50+ cars in Amtrak colors if you throw the slumber coaches, domes, etc. cars they have out there.


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## railiner (Jun 16, 2011)

Thanks so much for sharing those wonderful photos of those wonderful old cars. I remember riding in several of them thru the years....

Would love to see them fully restored back to their original ATSF/CB&Q/PRR et al. condition, but as the song says "Only in my dreams"...

Too bad Amtrak had replaced the wonderful Karpen seats in the Hi-Level's with those newer (and less comfortable) ASI seats.

That facility has a collection that would be the envy of many museums. Because of the various cost issue's discussed in this thread, I seriously doubt any of that equipment will ever be used again, and will eventually be scrapped. Hopefully, I will be proven wrong.


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## AlanB (Jun 16, 2011)

rtabern said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > rtabern said:
> ...


I don't have all the details, but I can fill in some of the blanks.

Amtrak acquired all 6 of the cars in 1971 at its formation. They saw some service on the SW Chief until the early 80's. After that, they saw service on the San Joaquin’s and the Capital Corridor trains until Cali started buying its own cars for those lines. They went into mothballs for a few years, before being dusted off and turned into PPC's. They debuted in 1996 on the CS as PPC's.

For reasons that remain unclear, sometime in either 2000 or 2001 Amtrak dumped a bunch of old cars, and 39971 was included in that batch of cars. It was sold to the Illinois Transit Association Assembly. At one point the car was also reported to be in Iowa and under the ownership of Northwest Sky Rail Charters, but I cannot confirm that.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jun 16, 2011)

I fondly recall riding the _*Sunset Limited*_ between Phoenix and San Antonio back in 1995, give or take a year, and having a Hi Level Lounge in place of the SightSeer.


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## Anderson (Jun 16, 2011)

You know, I get where Amtrak is coming from as far as sets of miscellaneous equipment...but 35 cars is _easily _7-8 LD trains' worth of coaches, and on a longer Regional-style consist you're still looking at 4-5 trains' worth of equipment which _matches_. That's actually more than you can say for Talgo sets, and it doesn't help Talgo's case that those are (if I am recalling correctly) semi-articulated sets which have little to no flexibility in car deployment (so you can't, for example, add some cars to service for a few weeks at a peak season...again, correct me if I'm wrong here).

I'm going to grant that the main issue on a lot of routes is sold-out sleepers, but right now the old saying of "beggars can't be choosers" comes to mind: Amtrak may not _want_ to run older cars, but given the choice between hitting an unclimbable capacity wall on a lot of routes (and they _are_ getting there pretty steadily, almost across the board) and using the cars to meet increasing demand (perhaps in conjunction with some above-grade fare hikes...use the equipment situation to justify the fare move, but also use the fare move to cover the equipment situation), I'd readily choose the latter as a matter of policy. With that said, I have no problem with passing some or all of the added cost onto the state(s) and/or the riders, but I'd rather see the equipment being used than not used...and I _do_ think that Amtrak owning equipment is a better policy than the states owning it in many cases, if simply because the potential for wild mood swings causing trouble at the state level seems higher.

I also suspect that there are projects that you might be able to "lock in" in some cases, and not having to go through a multi-year dance having new equipment built (which is increasingly becoming route-specific...it seems that more and more, you throw in a set of this here and set of that there) would be a good way to be able to move while there's political will (existing services, particularly those with solid ridership, tend to be _much_ harder to get rid of than "in-process" routes).

Alan,

To take a stab, I think Amtrak was trying to get old equipment off the books in the face of more or less stagnant ridership. Based on where ridership numbers had gone from 1980-2000, I can't blame them, and though in retrospect the move seems to have been an ill-timed blunder of sorts...I suspect that it was the right decision at the time. Also, that equipment dump occurred right after the Surfliner purchases, did it not?


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## jis (Jun 16, 2011)

Anderson said:


> To take a stab, I think Amtrak was trying to get old equipment off the books in the face of more or less stagnant ridership. Based on where ridership numbers had gone from 1980-2000, I can't blame them, and though in retrospect the move seems to have been an ill-timed blunder of sorts...I suspect that it was the right decision at the time. Also, that equipment dump occurred right after the Surfliner purchases, did it not?


Even if they still had them, where was the money to fix them up to keep them roadworthy going to come from? Remember Amtrak also parked close to a hundred Amfleet Is during the Gunn years because they claimed they did not have the money to do the regular COT&S on them. In that period Northeast Reqionals were down to 5 and sometimes even 4 car trains!


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## Ryan (Jun 16, 2011)

rtabern said:


> I cant really speak for the running condition of the cars, but from the inside... most looked in pretty good shape. A couple of coaches look like they could still be in service if you didnt know any better (or see the April 1997 Amtrak magazines sticking out of them).


 Thanks for clarifying that - looking at the pictures again, a lot of what I was seeing was more cosmetic than I had originally thought.


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## Anderson (Jun 16, 2011)

Ryan,

There seem to be one or two that got smashed up...but I think that was an exception in the lot, not the rule.


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## bretton88 (Jun 16, 2011)

Illinois could have had these running on their routes for under a million a piece. That would have been a bargain. Now the money is for new bilevels, so these cars will probably never run again, unless some other state see's it as a cheap way to start up/enhance a corridor service (Georgia? North Carolina? Colorado?)


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## Gratt (Jun 16, 2011)

bretton88 said:


> Illinois could have had these running on their routes for under a million a piece. That would have been a bargain. Now the money is for new bilevels, so these cars will probably never run again, unless some other state see's it as a cheap way to start up/enhance a corridor service (Georgia? North Carolina? Colorado?)


I would not scrap them just yet but they do need to "shop around" for another customer, I also would not limit this to the states, there may well be other countries that would be interested in this, Canada is an easy option, but I would not rule out any nation that uses a standard gauge system.

-- also I find it kind of silly that Amtrak would not want the bi-level sleepers, I get they are a pain to maintain, but 1. It is extra revenue and 2 it would show congress they need a new order.


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## Anderson (Jun 16, 2011)

Gratt said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> > Illinois could have had these running on their routes for under a million a piece. That would have been a bargain. Now the money is for new bilevels, so these cars will probably never run again, unless some other state see's it as a cheap way to start up/enhance a corridor service (Georgia? North Carolina? Colorado?)
> ...


Do those sleepers have hopper toilets or retention toilets? If the former, then I think there's a nasty refit cost associated with it; if it's the latter, though, I'd like to see better reasoning for not using the cars other than "We don't want old cars in the system", especially when most of the PIPs require at least _some_ new cars and a "stray" order of 2-3 cars is simply not going to happen. I'm actually now wondering...is there enough variety in the car types available that they could run one LD route entirely (or almost entirely) on refurbished hi-levels (say, the SWC)?


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## AlanB (Jun 16, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Alan,
> 
> To take a stab, I think Amtrak was trying to get old equipment off the books in the face of more or less stagnant ridership. Based on where ridership numbers had gone from 1980-2000, I can't blame them, and though in retrospect the move seems to have been an ill-timed blunder of sorts...I suspect that it was the right decision at the time. Also, that equipment dump occurred right after the Surfliner purchases, did it not?


Sorry, I guess I phrased that badly late last night when I wrote it.

I fully understood why Amtrak was dumping a bunch of cars back then.

What I don't understand is why 39971 was included in that dump.

And yes, I believe that the equipment dump occured as the new Surfliner cars came online.


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## George B (Jun 16, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I fondly recall riding the _*Sunset Limited*_ between Phoenix and San Antonio back in 1995, give or take a year, and having a Hi Level Lounge in place of the SightSeer.


The Sunset Limited must have put a good number of soon-to-be-PPCs to use as well since you had it on your trip in 1995, and #39973 was in the Big Bayou Canot wreck in 1993.


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 16, 2011)

Gratt said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> > Illinois could have had these running on their routes for under a million a piece. That would have been a bargain. Now the money is for new bilevels, so these cars will probably never run again, unless some other state see's it as a cheap way to start up/enhance a corridor service (Georgia? North Carolina? Colorado?)
> ...


There aren't any bi-level sleepers (unless they're Superliner wrecks). The Santa Fe hi-levels included only coaches, lounges and diners.


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## dlagrua (Jun 16, 2011)

If you do a search and you will find that old RR cars are still in good supply. Train restoration places, RR brokers, private collectors and even some salvage yards have them.


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## Big Iron (Jun 16, 2011)

railiner said:


> Thanks so much for sharing those wonderful photos of those wonderful old cars. I remember riding in several of them thru the years....
> 
> Would love to see them fully restored back to their original ATSF/CB&Q/PRR et al. condition, but as the song says "Only in my dreams"...
> 
> ...


Some of the cars are for sale. The blunt end CB&Q dome/obs is going for $250,000.00

http://www.gatewayrailservices.com/inventory.php?detail=10


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## jis (Jun 16, 2011)

Gratt said:


> I would not scrap them just yet but they do need to "shop around" for another customer, I also would not limit this to the states, there may well be other countries that would be interested in this, Canada is an easy option, but I would not rule out any nation that uses a standard gauge system.


There are not too many countries in the world that have 16.5' height clearance on their railroads.



> -- also I find it kind of silly that Amtrak would not want the bi-level sleepers, I get they are a pain to maintain, but 1. It is extra revenue and 2 it would show congress they need a new order.


Santa Fe never had even a single bi-level sleeper. So none of the Heritage bi-level cars are sleepers. The bi-levels were exclusively for use in El Capitan and other Coach trains. Even when the Super Chief and the El Capitan ran as a single train the Sleeper passengers and Coach passengers were apparently kept separated so no access to Hi-level cars for Sleeper passengers. That probably changed after Amtrak day.

Folks need to remember that bi-level sleepers is an exclusively Amtrak invention. No private railroad ever ran such service.


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## printman2000 (Jun 16, 2011)

Seems I remember hearing that Amtrak added some sleeping rooms for OBS to some of the hi level transition cars.


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## Big Iron (Jun 16, 2011)

rtabern said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Serviceable condition? They look pretty rough to me. I'll bet that you can buy a new trainset for what it would take to buy these and get them into running condition.
> ...



When the Auto Train was single level it ran for a time with a buffet car with an adjoining table car. I also recall seeing them on the Silver trains as well. The link below has some information.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=50339&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0


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## rtabern (Jun 16, 2011)

MikefromCrete said:


> Gratt said:
> 
> 
> > bretton88 said:
> ...


One of the cars was half coach/half sleeper... but I think the sleeper was for crew only


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## Anderson (Jun 16, 2011)

Alright, they're all coaches. I figured they were, but I did want to ask to be sure. Now, since we're talking about them, did "buffet" cars actually feature a buffet of some kind or another? Also...I do remember hearing about such service from one long-time rider, and I didn't hear too much good about it (at least when they used it as a substitute for a diner rather than to augment it). I wouldn't be opposed to seeing _something_ in that vein attempted on some LD services (I speak of "improved cafe" services...I'm not sure if you could make a good bridge with something like this, but if you want to beef up one or more LD trains (say, doing a larger CHI-DEN consist), you could do something along these lines as an option for coach passengers and offer a _bit_ more variety/quality than is currently available in the cafe.


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## jphjaxfl (Jun 16, 2011)

You may be referring to the double unit dining cars. These were originally built for high volume trains like the Broadway Limited, Panama Limited and other trains. These were two full cars of that always ran as a pair with one car being the traditional dining car with kitchen and tables and the other car with tables only. The cars were connected by automatic doors so wait staff could move in between. Amtrak last used them on the Silver Service offering Buffet Style meals. One car had the buffet line and the other car had tables. Passengers helped themselves on the buffet line and then were seated. This was the only meal service offered on the Silver Trains in the late 1980s/early 1990s in one of the previous cost cutting attempts. The idea for this type of service came from the original pre-Amtrak Autotrain which offered buffet meals to customers. The buffet service did not go over that well on the Silver trains and the food offering was not that great. It was a far cry from the excellent meals served on the prior New York-Florida trains such as the Florida Special, Champions, Sliver Meteor and Silver Star and that service continued the first 10 years on Amtrak until Congress decided to "fix" the dining car deficit.


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## Anderson (Jun 16, 2011)

jphjaxfl said:


> You may be referring to the double unit dining cars. These were originally built for high volume trains like the Broadway Limited, Panama Limited and other trains. These were two full cars of that always ran as a pair with one car being the traditional dining car with kitchen and tables and the other car with tables only. The cars were connected by automatic doors so wait staff could move in between. Amtrak last used them on the Silver Service offering Buffet Style meals. One car had the buffet line and the other car had tables. Passengers helped themselves on the buffet line and then were seated. This was the only meal service offered on the Silver Trains in the late 1980s/early 1990s in one of the previous cost cutting attempts. The idea for this type of service came from the original pre-Amtrak Autotrain which offered buffet meals to customers. The buffet service did not go over that well on the Silver trains and the food offering was not that great. It was a far cry from the excellent meals served on the prior New York-Florida trains such as the Florida Special, Champions, Sliver Meteor and Silver Star and that service continued the first 10 years on Amtrak until Congress decided to "fix" the dining car deficit.


Ok, that's what I heard about from Mr. Haldeman when we talked...he mentioned that service was _great_ in the early days (when they were still using a lot of the SAL/ACL/SCL equipment, I believe) and then it nosedived in the 80s with what you mentioned. He mentioned that, as a sleeper passenger, your one "big perk" at the time was that you got your buffet tray brought to you. As to the buffet/table cars...that feels _extremely _tragic, having those old twin units used for such substandard service.


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## Chris K. (Jun 27, 2013)

Back to the Hi-level cars, for a moment... These cars would only be coach seating. The El Capitan was the coach-train counterpart to AT&SF's all-Pullman Super Chief. These cars were built to that idea and the Santa Fe pushed the passenger industry into a new stage with these cars (I believe). The only cars that I would think to have sleeping compartments in would be the Transition cars because Santa Fe built them that way for use as Crew Dorms during the ride. If there are cars that have sleeper rooms that aren't transition cars, yet are still old Santa Fe Hi-Levels, then my guess would be that Amtrak reconfigured the car's layout in the early years. It would be really amazing if someone did get those cars back into service as private cars or for a competitor to Amtrak. Plus, they are a piece of Railroad history (as is the Mark Twain Zephyr with its two fourth car add-ons) that should be kept for future generations to experience and enjoy.


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## bgiaquin (Sep 3, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Amtrak would much rather the states buy new cars.
> 
> From the Fleet Strategy Plan (page 45 where they discuss why they plan on scrapping the cars once retired):
> 
> ...


They better not scrap the Budd Diners! :angry2:


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## Ryan (Sep 3, 2013)

All depends on who is willing to pay what for them. Some of them may be saved if someone wants to buy them that will pay more than scrap value.


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## bgiaquin (Sep 3, 2013)

Ryan said:


> All depends on who is willing to pay what for them. Some of them may be saved if someone wants to buy them that will pay more than scrap value.


Yeah. OTOH, they are in really good condition inside & out (considering their age) and would be worth the price for any museum, tourist RR, or VIA Rail.


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## Acela150 (Sep 4, 2013)

Good condition to an extent. Most of the parts on the cars aren't made anymore and Amtrak has to handmake the parts. Which is costly.


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## bgiaquin (Sep 4, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Good condition to an extent. Most of the parts on the cars aren't made anymore and Amtrak has to handmake the parts. Which is costly.


I know but still worth preserving. I mean come on they were built by Budd, probably the best passenger railcar builder of it's time. That is why they have lasted so long. Anything built by Budd is a cherished piece for museums & heritage railroads, & these diners would make great additions to one of those collections.


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## VentureForth (Sep 4, 2013)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> 'boxcar817' said:
> 
> 
> > Those probably belong to the Dallas RR museum.They are in the process of moving that museum to Frisco Tx. They had an old Pulman car on display and information about the move in Dallas on NTD
> ...


 Yes - I'm quoting a two year old post...

I believe that these Hi-Levels belong to John Radovich of John's Cars in Dallas. But the only time I am personally aware of them being run was back in 2004 during the inaugural (and only) Blacklands Tejas Special Excursion between Commerce and Sulphur Springs, TX. See these pics.


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## Ryan (Sep 4, 2013)

bgiaquin said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > Good condition to an extent. Most of the parts on the cars aren't made anymore and Amtrak has to handmake the parts. Which is costly.
> ...


Doesn't matter, unless you also have the means to preserve them.

I agree that it would be great for some of them to be preserved, but sadly, I don't have the money to do that.


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## gmushial (Sep 4, 2013)

Any guesses in terms of what the scrap value might be, ie, a number above which one might have to bid to save/collect them? Then of course the question would be: where to "save" them and how to get them there, ie, merely becoming the owner thereof is not the last of the expenses.


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## oldtimer (Sep 4, 2013)

These high levels need extensive modification to be put in service; i.e.

the toilets must be converted to retention type, a real PITA as they are on the lower level with very little clearance under them. They need to have a vacuum system such as on the superliners because the waste storage tank will be above the outlet level of the toilet. We all know that water does not flow uphill, neither does our waste.

Another major problem PITA is the 1950's style HVAC system, very antiquated and it needs a total of 288 pounds of R-12 (now out of production). The current price of R-12 (if you can get it) ranges from $40.00 to $70.00 PER POUND. Also the piping of the AC system is very vulnerable to damage and severe leaks, Many times in my working days I have seen these cars come in dry of refrigerant.

replacement parts? What are those, we had to fabricate many just to keep them running 10 to 15 years ago.


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## crew (Sep 4, 2013)

bgiaquin said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > All depends on who is willing to pay what for them. Some of them may be saved if someone wants to buy them that will pay more than scrap value.
> ...


Or some inspired entrepreneur could use them to restart service in Mexico...


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## TVRM610 (Sep 4, 2013)

oldtimer said:


> These high levels need extensive modification to be put in service; i.e.
> the toilets must be converted to retention type, a real PITA as they are on the lower level with very little clearance under them. They need to have a vacuum system such as on the superliners because the waste storage tank will be above the outlet level of the toilet. We all know that water does not flow uphill, neither does our waste.
> 
> Another major problem PITA is the 1950's style HVAC system, very antiquated and it needs a total of 288 pounds of R-12 (now out of production). The current price of R-12 (if you can get it) ranges from $40.00 to $70.00 PER POUND. Also the piping of the AC system is very vulnerable to damage and severe leaks, Many times in my working days I have seen these cars come in dry of refrigerant.
> ...


how is converting these toilets any different then putting in brand new toilets into new superliners? It clearly can be done.

what type of HVAC system does the Parlour Cars have? And again... even if you have to rip it out and put in a new one that doesn't cost more then buying brand new HVAC systems for new cars.

again... replacement parts seem to be available to keep the Parlour Cars running. Imagine how much EASIER it would be to have replacement parts for High Levels if there were a fleet of 50 or so of them running out of St. Louis?

I mentioned in another thread recently... Amtrak needs a lease agreement with Gateway Rail to fix these guys up and use them. The agreement can include maintenance if Amtrak doesn't want to worry about unique parts etc. Base the cars out of St. Louis and use them on the Eagle, Heartland Flyer, etc.

This is a way for Amtrak to add high level coaches to the roster in the short term.


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## Ryan (Sep 4, 2013)

I'm going to go ahead and agree with the poster that has actual experience in maintaining these systems over some clueless foamer that says "how hard can it be?" after it's explained to him why it's so hard.

But hey, that's just me.


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## TVRM610 (Sep 4, 2013)

go right ahead. and I'm gonna look at the facts that Amtrak operates this style of car every single day.

I never said the cars wouldn't require extensive modifications to be operational. The biggest issue could even be ADA issues which hasn't even been brought up! I'm not some foamer that thinks every old piece of rail history should be kept around forever... but if Amtrak is short on equipment this could be a great short term solution to feed more cars into the system.


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## gmushial (Sep 5, 2013)

And without extra/more cars in the system, then any attempts to grow Amtrak will have reached an upper asymptote and be pointless... not a happy picture of a future.


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## Ryan (Sep 5, 2013)

TVRM610 said:


> go right ahead. and I'm gonna look at the facts that Amtrak operates this style of car every single day.
> I never said the cars wouldn't require extensive modifications to be operational. The biggest issue could even be ADA issues which hasn't even been brought up! I'm not some foamer that thinks every old piece of rail history should be kept around forever... but if Amtrak is short on equipment this could be a great short term solution to feed more cars into the system.


It operates a handful of them, on one route, at great expense, and frequently has to pull them for repair. 
It's also far easier to keep something in operational condition than it is to bring (far more) back into operational condition. Its would likely be cheaper to buy a new car than get one of these back on the road, and the ongoing maintenance costs would be *significantly* cheaper.

The PPCs don't have toilets, so that issue alone would be enough to disqualify them.

This is a terrible idea and I'd be pissed if Amtrak wasted their limited resources trying to make it happen.


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## jis (Sep 5, 2013)

Ryan said:


> This is a terrible idea and I'd be pissed if Amtrak wasted their limited resources trying to make it happen.


I agree.
But this is also a perennial. It comes up at least once a year, brought up by someone who probably has not seen the last cycle. Unfortunately there is a lot of emotion involved involved when it involves a Budd car of any sort.

If Amtrak found that kind of money, it should first strip and rebuild its own Superliners, which could do with that sort of tender loving care.


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## VentureForth (Sep 5, 2013)

TVRM610 said:


> oldtimer said:
> 
> 
> > These high levels need extensive modification to be put in service; i.e.
> ...


 A standard 17-gallon recirculating (blue water) Monogram tank(now a part of Zodiac) can fit within the shroud of a 16-18" height toilet. Don't ask me how I know this... Sometimes my job is pretty crappy.


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## Nathanael (Sep 5, 2013)

jis said:


> If Amtrak found that kind of money, it should first strip and rebuild its own Superliners, which could do with that sort of tender loving care.


Yeah; not only do the Superliner Is need some serious work, Amtrak actuallly has a plan for getting more sleeping compartments into the Transition Dorms. That would probably cost less than rehabilitating one of these 1950s cars, and would get Amtrak sleeping compartments.


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## TVRM610 (Sep 5, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Its would likely be cheaper to buy a new car than get one of these back on the road, and the ongoing maintenance costs would be *significantly* cheaper.
> 
> The PPCs don't have toilets, so that issue alone would be enough to disqualify them.


Ryan... if you have ANY proof that building a new car is significantly cheaper than I would totally agree with you.

Also.. please note that I never suggested Amtrak themselves rebuild and maintain these cars... I suggested they enter a lease agreement with the current owner of the cars to restore and maintain them.. so Gateway would be in charge of that.. that way Amtrak for sure comes out ahead.

Finally.... I really can't believe you brought up the toilet issue again, but Mid America Rail Leasing has a fully operational High Level Coach that has the compliant Restrooms so this is possible.


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## TVRM610 (Sep 5, 2013)

jis said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > This is a terrible idea and I'd be pissed if Amtrak wasted their limited resources trying to make it happen.
> ...


What emotion? Funny.. you are the one who mentioned Budd built them.

And why would it be a better use of Amtrak's money to rebuild cars that are currently operating rather than put MORE cars into operation?


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## TVRM610 (Sep 5, 2013)

Sorry for the 3rd post but as a cost comparison Pullman Rail Journeys is taking cars from rotting to luxury for $750,000 - $1.2 M each.

http://www.travelpulse.com/pullman-rail-journeys-to-launch-with-chicago-new-orleans-route.html

Isn't a new Superliner estimated at around $3 million each?


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## Nathanael (Sep 5, 2013)

TVRM610 said:


> Sorry for the 3rd post but as a cost comparison Pullman Rail Journeys is taking cars from rotting to luxury for $750,000 - $1.2 M each. http://www.travelpulse.com/pullman-rail-journeys-to-launch-with-chicago-new-orleans-route.html


Lighter duty cycle.
This is an important point. You can get cars in good condition for museum service or occasional charter service a *lot* easier than you get get them in condition for reliable service on the punishing duty cycle Amtrak puts on long-distance service.

So, the conclusion I come to is, Amtrak should perhaps lease these cars for Thanksgiving. With enough spares, they might work for an isolated one-a-day corridor like the Heartland Flyer. But for regular long-distance operation, they're just not going to be worth it.


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## jis (Sep 5, 2013)

TVRM610 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


Just go to Trainorders or railroad.net and see the fun arguments  - people making claims like because the cars are Budd built they would never suffer from metal fatigue and they'd have infinite lifespan. AU does not exist in isolation. 

It is better to use Amtrak money to rebuild cars that need rebuilding, and Superliners do need that. They are at or getting to that point in their life. Just because they are currently operating does not mean they will continue to do so forever. Already their reliability levels are not exactly what would be desirable. Those airconditioning and other failures are getting to be more frequent it seems.

As Nathanael explains, you won't get the sort of reliability needed for Amtrak's operational use of cars out of a $1.2 million rebuild of those cars. Their operating cost will remain higher than for newer cars. Every person who has worked in car maintenance and restoration that I have talked to essentially agrees with Nathanael's assessment.

Yes, it would be nice to have a pool of cars that can be leased occasionally. But the risk for maintaining such a pool should not be borne entirely by Amtrak. It should be borne by whoever is trying to make a business of leasing cars. Amtrak should just have to pay reasonable leasing costs. Whether that is a viable business sans subsidy is yet to be seen. In the UK considerable subsidy was required to create the ROSCOs (ROlling Stock COmpanies), but now it is quite a vibrant sector.


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## Ryan (Sep 5, 2013)

TVRM610 said:


> Also.. please note that I never suggested Amtrak themselves rebuild and maintain these cars... I suggested they enter a lease agreement with the current owner of the cars to restore and maintain them.. so Gateway would be in charge of that.. that way Amtrak for sure comes out ahead.


Having someone else do the work isn't magically going to make it cheaper. The costs (along with profit to make it worth their while) will just be rolled into the lease fees.


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## Phil S (Sep 5, 2013)

Amazing collection. But most amazing to me is that the owner hasn't sold the obviously unusable metal for scrap. Wheel sets, badly damaged cars. Maybe he thinks the parts can be used? Then again every railroad I've been on in the last few years has thousands of tons of rusting steel just stacked up next to the tracks. A rough guess for that grade steel would be about 20cts/lb and rr would pay little for transport costs. Al sheeting is running maybe $0.70/lb. Just thinking out loud.


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## JoeRids (Sep 5, 2013)

With regards to an earlier comment about not all the ex-Santa Fe hi levels becoming Pacific Parlour Cars, I would be willing to bet the car that you toured through was indeed used as a PPC. I remember riding the Starlight in December of 1995, not too long after the upgrading of this train went through. The interior config of this car was not much different than its use as a regular lounge, and in fact if I remember looked pretty identical to the car photos you have. I think the upgrading of the cars to include overstuffed chairs and circular sofas came between 1996-1997, because I remember riding again in 1998 and that remodeling was complete.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 5, 2013)

Yes, initially the Hi-Level lounges in PPC service hadn't been rebuilt and were in Amtrak lounge configuration they'd been in for a long time. They strung up white Christmas mini-lights to make it look more festive.


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## TVRM610 (Sep 5, 2013)

Looks like someone thinks the cars are worth something...

http://ccrail.com/corridor-capital-confirms-discussions-with-michigan-about-new-passenger-trains/

From the "fact sheet" available in the above link.

"Remanufacturing the uniform fleet of Hi-Levels to today's specifications will provide cars virtually indistinguishable from Next-Generation cars in appearance, interior comfort, ride quality AND reliability. Plus, the Hi-Levels can be placed in service sooner AND at lower cost.

Built by the legendary Budd Company, the stainless steel Hi- Level fleet has safely, successfully, and economically operated for millions of miles on Santa Fe and Amtrak trains. Today, this indestructible equipment is ready for more, after a complete refurbishment, to provide millions of miles of more reliable and dependable service in a modern, safe environment."


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## Braniff747SP (Sep 5, 2013)

TVRM610 said:


> Looks like someone thinks the cars are worth something...
> http://ccrail.com/corridor-capital-confirms-discussions-with-michigan-about-new-passenger-trains/
> 
> From the "fact sheet" available in the above link.
> ...


Interesting article, and their website is quite interesting.

I'll believe it when I see it, though.


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## Ryan (Sep 5, 2013)

Yeah, I'm not sure that a press release from a company trying to sell someone on trying to pull this off can be used as a corroborating source.


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## rrdude (Sep 5, 2013)

Ryan said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Also.. please note that I never suggested Amtrak themselves rebuild and maintain these cars... I suggested they enter a lease agreement with the current owner of the cars to restore and maintain them.. so Gateway would be in charge of that.. that way Amtrak for sure comes out ahead.
> ...


Ahhh, agree with both views on this point. I try to keep my nostalgia in "check". However, isn't this the perfect scenario for Apple, or IBM, or Google, or any of the CASH FLUSH, marketing-oriented companies to come in, contract and pay for all of the req'd restorations and upgrades, and then "lease" to Amtrak for a minor amount, offsetting such costs and low lease rates by the "Advertising" and publicity that it may generate? Staff them with their own crew. (eww, there's a hornets nest, OK, staff with Amtrak) Not talking coaches here, but PPC cars on EVERY LD route.

Now, us "fans" would have to put up with APPLE's LOGO plastered everywhere on the outside of the car, and inside, but hey, for more PPC's, I'd sell Ryan's soul!

I swear this could work, just need the right sales guy to pitch it to the right people at these companies. Isn't the founder of SQUARE a rail fan?

I'm just saying............


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## Ryan (Sep 5, 2013)

Oh yeah, if you can get someone else to foot the bill, that's be a no brainer.


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