# Empire Builder and California Zephyr Questions



## catblue (May 16, 2009)

First time Amtrak traveler with questions.

How many cars are on the Empire Builder and California Zephyr or does that vary?

Is there a web site that shows the general order of where cars are placed on the train?

Basically wondering how many cars you might have to go through to get from sleepers to dining car, etc. or how many people might be walking through my sleeper car to get there.


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## Asst Conductor - okj (May 16, 2009)

In general the sleepers are on one end of the train, the coaches on the other and the dining/cafe and lunge cars are in the middle of the train. At most you would have two others passing through your car depending on train make up and such for the day and where your car is located on the train. Coach passengers are kept out of the sleeper cars usualy. In my expierence its pretty quiet in the sleeper cars in regaurds to passengers walking through the cars.


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## GG-1 (May 16, 2009)

catblue said:


> First time Amtrak traveler with questions.How many cars are on the Empire Builder and California Zephyr or does that vary?
> 
> Is there a web site that shows the general order of where cars are placed on the train?
> 
> Basically wondering how many cars you might have to go through to get from sleepers to dining car, etc. or how many people might be walking through my sleeper car to get there.


Aloha

The answer you received is correct for the California Zephyr, I don't remember the arrangement for the Empire Builder as there are cars that split, some going to Portland and the rest to Seattle. So either wait for someone with a better memory or do a search with Portland, Seattle, Empire Builder as the criteria. the Empire Builder is my second Favorite train, The California Zephyr my third, The Coast Starlight my favorite Long Distance train.


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## the_traveler (May 16, 2009)

When I was on the Empire Builder last October, here's the order of the train:

Baggage car (to/from SEA)

Trans-dorm (to/from SEA)

2 sleepers (to/from SEA)

diner (to/from SEA)

2 coaches (to/from SEA)

sightseer lounge (to/from PDX)

2 coaches (to/from PDX)

1 sleeper (to/from PDX)

1 coach (between CHI and MSP only)

The Empire Builder splits or combines in Spokane.


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## AmtrakPa1234 (May 17, 2009)

I was on the California Zephyr last year from Emeryville to Chicago.

The order of the train was:

2 Locos

Baggage car

1 Transition Sleeper

2 Sleepers

Dining Car

Sightseer Lounge

3 Coaches

I don't understand why they put the sleepers right behind the engines.

Like said before access to the sleeping cars is pretty tight. I stayed in the second sleeping car and I got a "may I help you" for walking up into the first sleeping car!

Great trip overall!


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (May 17, 2009)

AmtrakPa1234 said:


> I don't understand why they put the sleepers right behind the engines.


I read somewhere that during the early 70s when Amtrak still used steam heat, it was common practice to put the sleepers behind the engine in hopes the old worn steam heaters would at least heat the sleepers. I guess after HEP was adopted they never changed the procedure.


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## jis (May 17, 2009)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> I read somewhere that during the early 70s when Amtrak still used steam heat, it was common practice to put the sleepers behind the engine in hopes the old worn steam heaters would at least heat the sleepers. I guess after HEP was adopted they never changed the procedure.


Well, on the single level LD trains out east they have just moved the sleepers to the back uniformly, except of course for the Boston sleeper on the LSL, which still remains up front to make splitting/joining easier in Albany.


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## GoldenSpike (May 17, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> When I was on the Empire Builder last October, here's the order of the train:
> Baggage car (to/from SEA)
> 
> Trans-dorm (to/from SEA)
> ...


This was our w/b EB on May 9 from MSP. Same set up except we had an extra coach for the whole trip. The PDX sleeper is always the last car both directions.

Baggage

Trans-dorm

Sleeper

Sleeper

Coach

Diner

Coach

Coach

===== Last four are the PDX section

Lounge

Coach

Coach

Sleeper

A healthy hike to the diner. Often I time going to/from the Diner at smoke stops so that I can do my walk outside.


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## Bierboy (May 17, 2009)

GoldenSpike said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > When I was on the Empire Builder last October, here's the order of the train:
> ...


That doesn't make sense...why would they make sleeper passengers walk through a coach car to get to the dining car? And why would the Sightseer Lounge be detached to go to Portland and not go to Seattle (where most passengers terminate)?

We rode the SWC two years ago from Galesburg to LA and our sleepers (three of them) were at the end of the train right behind the dining car. THAT makes sense.


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## AlanB (May 17, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> That doesn't make sense...why would they make sleeper passengers walk through a coach car to get to the dining car? And why would the Sightseer Lounge be detached to go to Portland and not go to Seattle (where most passengers terminate)?
> We rode the SWC two years ago from Galesburg to LA and our sleepers (three of them) were at the end of the train right behind the dining car. THAT makes sense.


Because if the Sightseer went to Seattle, then the Portland section would have no food service at all.

And there is no way to setup the train, unless you want to do a lot of switching in Spokanne, to keep the Portland sleeper at the front. The way things are now, the train arrives into Spokanne, they cut the train between the Seattle coaches and the Sightseer lounge. The Seattle section then goes on its way, while the crews add a new engine to the Portland section.

Any other way would mean much more switching work, all in the middle of the night, sure to wake up the sleeping passengers.


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## PRR 60 (May 17, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> ...That doesn't make sense...why would they make sleeper passengers walk through a coach car to get to the dining car? And why would the Sightseer Lounge be detached to go to Portland and not go to Seattle (where most passengers terminate)?
> We rode the SWC two years ago from Galesburg to LA and our sleepers (three of them) were at the end of the train right behind the dining car. THAT makes sense.


Basically what you have is two trains that run as one to and from Chicago and Spokane. The problem is the Portland section. They do not want Portland coach passengers walking through the sleeper to get to the lounge and diner, so for the Portland portion of the train (on the rear of the train), the sleeper is put on the end. That way the sleeper passengers walk through coach rather than the coach passengers walking through the sleeper.

As for the Sightseer lounge, the Portland section needs a car for food service for coach and sleeper passengers. Since the majority of passengers head to Seattle, they send the diner that way. To provide food and beverage service to and from Portland, they send the Sightseer to PDX.

EDIT: I've got to type faster. Alan beat me again!


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## jis (May 17, 2009)

When 5, 25 and 35 used to run as a single train from Chicago to Denver they had no way of putting the train together such that Coach passengers did not have to walk through a sleeper. The few times I traveled on that combo the coach passengers of 35 had to walk through the sleeper of 25 to get to the lounge and diner.


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## catblue (May 17, 2009)

So people from one sleeper will walk through the other to get to the dinner and lounge? Is that done on the upper level or the lower?


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## edibot42 (May 17, 2009)

catblue said:


> So people from one sleeper that will walk through the other to get to the dinner and lounge? Is that done on the upper level or the lower?


Upper, as that's where the vestibule is on Superliner cars.


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## catblue (May 17, 2009)

On the California Zephyr where would Roomette 3 be and on Empire Builder Roomette 13? Upper or lower?


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## AlanB (May 17, 2009)

catblue said:


> On the California Zephyr where would Roomette 3 be and on Empire Builder Roomette 13? Upper or lower?


Three is upstairs, 13 downstairs.

This diagram from Friends of Amtrak will help to give you the lay of the land.


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## the_traveler (May 18, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> That doesn't make sense...why would they make sleeper passengers walk through a coach car to get to the dining car? And why would the Sightseer Lounge be detached to go to Portland and not go to Seattle (where most passengers terminate)?


As others have said, the train splits in SPK, and they just have to detach 1 car (between the SEA coach and the Lounge) to make 2 trains. As for the MSP coach, they have no other choice but to put it behind the PDX sleeper. (Yes, that means coach passengers walk through the sleeper!)

When the EB arrives in MSP, all they have to do is hook up a switcher and remove 1 car from the back. If it was anywhere else, they would need to separate the train, place it on another track, remove the 1 car, then move the train to combine it with the rest of the EB and then reattach it. 

When I traveled on the EB in October, I was in the PDX sleeper in Bedroom A - 10 feet from the back door. I didn't even realize they tok off the car! (Yes, I knew it would be removed. I didn't feel anything.)


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## catblue (May 18, 2009)

Being a first timer I have a lot of questions so I am reading as much of the forum as I can looking for the answers. Thanks for all the comments and the links. Much appreciated!

I was reading the post about "what to bring with you" and it was a long list of things like duct tape, flashlight, etc. I guess it is better to be prepared than needing something you don't have but with the luggage restrictions, small space in the sleeper and not wanting to check baggage I am also planing on packing as light as I can.

So what are your "bare minimum" suggestions of things needed besides the obvious things you take when traveling????


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## Sam31452 (May 18, 2009)

> I guess it is better to be prepared than needing something you don't have but with the luggage restrictions, small space in the sleeper and not wanting to check baggage I am also planing on packing as light as I can.


Packing as light as you can is always a good idea, nevetheless I have to say that in a Sleeper you will have enough space if you don't mind putting your luggage on the luggage rack downstairs.


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## the_traveler (May 18, 2009)

While it is true that there is a small space for storage inside your room, the Empire Builder and California Zephyr (and most trains west of Chicago and New Orleans and the Capital Limited) use Superliner cars - which have a large storage area for baggage on the lower level of the cars. You can keep your bags there.

I do, and just bring necessary things (like my laptop) to my room. I even leave my change of cloths in my bag downstairs. After all, if you are headed to the shower or to the restroom to change, you pass that rack anyway!  So I personally see no reason to carry it to the room!


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## jis (May 18, 2009)

I always pack light enough to be able to store everything that I have in my roomette. I have never used common storage space, nor checked any baggage yet.


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## catblue (May 18, 2009)

So using the example that most sleepers and bedrooms have two people in them and will have a couple bags each, that seems like a lot of bags, so how hard is it to get to yours in the storage area on the first floor?


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 18, 2009)

catblue said:


> So using the example that most sleepers and bedrooms have two people in them and will have a couple bags each, that seems like a lot of bags, so how hard is it to get to yours in the storage area on the first floor?


The attendant, if good, will always find a way. h34r:


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## Dr Pickle Pants (May 18, 2009)

catblue said:


> I was reading the post about "what to bring with you" and it was a long list of things like duct tape, flashlight, etc. I guess it is better to be prepared than needing something you don't have but with the luggage restrictions, small space in the sleeper and not wanting to check baggage I am also planing on packing as light as I can. So what are your "bare minimum" suggestions of things needed besides the obvious things you take when traveling????


I pack two bags, one very small one containing just what I will need on the train, and one larger one containing all the other stuff I will need on my trip. The small one goes into my roomette with me, and the large one goes as checked baggage.

What do I pack for use on the train? A few articles of clothing, toiletries, shower shoes for the shower, a book, my iPhone and its charger, and an extension cord for the charger. I do not bring duct tape, masking tape, string, rope, shim stock, coolers stocked with provisions, cleaning supplies, tool boxes, spackle, flashlights, soldering irons, ham radio equipment, or any of the other stuff that will appear in these pages as must-bring items. You're not Admiral Byrd wintering over at Little America, you're a first-class passenger on America's top passenger trains -- act like it, and act like you expect Amtrak to act like it. (Which also means, please don't show up in the dining car in your underwear, e.g., t-shirts and short pants.)


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## catblue (May 18, 2009)

Questions:

Metropolitan Lounge? Don't suppose someone who drove you to the train station can wait in the lounge with you till your train boards?

Picking up tickets? Do you recommend picking them up early or do you just pick them up when you get to the station? Reason I ask is it is a 6 hour drive to the station.

Lounge car? Does the lounge car fill up fast? There are 8 of us and we would like to be together at dinner and were wondering about the lounge car.

Dining car? How long can you sit at the dining table? Don't like to rush but don't want to causing people to wait to eat either. Is it just dinner that is reserved or is it all meals for first class?


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## Neil_M (May 18, 2009)

Dr Pickle Pants said:


> I do not bring duct tape, masking tape, string, rope, shim stock, coolers stocked with provisions, cleaning supplies, tool boxes, spackle, flashlights, soldering irons, ham radio equipment, or any of the other stuff that will appear in these pages as must-bring items. You're not Admiral Byrd wintering over at Little America, you're a first-class passenger on America's top passenger trains -- act like it, and act like you expect Amtrak to act like it. (Which also means, please don't show up in the dining car in your underwear, e.g., t-shirts and short pants.)


I like it!!


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## Rail Freak (May 18, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> Dr Pickle Pants said:
> 
> 
> > I do not bring duct tape, masking tape, string, rope, shim stock, coolers stocked with provisions, cleaning supplies, tool boxes, spackle, flashlights, soldering irons, ham radio equipment, or any of the other stuff that will appear in these pages as must-bring items. You're not Admiral Byrd wintering over at Little America, you're a first-class passenger on America's top passenger trains -- act like it, and act like you expect Amtrak to act like it. (Which also means, please don't show up in the dining car in your underwear, e.g., t-shirts and short pants.)
> ...


I wondered why they were giving me those strange looks!!!  B)


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## AlanB (May 18, 2009)

catblue said:


> Questions:Metropolitan Lounge? Don't suppose someone who drove you to the train station can wait in the lounge with you till your train boards?


Very unlikely that they'll be allowed into the lounge, especially if you're leaving from Chicago. If you're leaving from Portland, then there might be a slight chance, but I still wouldn't bet on it.



catblue said:


> Picking up tickets? Do you recommend picking them up early or do you just pick them up when you get to the station? Reason I ask is it is a 6 hour drive to the station.


Most people just pick them up when they get to the station. Since I'm not sure what station you're leaving from it's hard for me to advise how much extra time to allow to do that. Many stations have Quik-Trak machines, which traditionally have no lines or minimal ones. But if you're leaving from a station without Quik-Trak's, it could take a bit longer. So I'd probably suggest making sure that you're there at least 30 minutes before departure, if not an hour. And if you're checking luggage, then you have to be there 30 minutes prior and should be targeting 45 to 60 minutes, just in case you hit traffic.



catblue said:


> Lounge car? Does the lounge car fill up fast? There are 8 of us and we would like to be together at dinner and were wondering about the lounge car.


During the most scenic parts, yes the lounge car fills up. Especially on the Zephyr through the Rockies. It's probably unlikely that all 8 of you will get to sit together in the lounge car. At dinner, it's 4 to a table, so the best you can hope for is one table across the aisle from the other. But you could also end up back to back.



catblue said:


> Dining car? How long can you sit at the dining table? Don't like to rush but don't want to causing people to wait to eat either. Is it just dinner that is reserved or is it all meals for first class?


Officially breakfast is first come, first served. Lunch and dinner are supposed to be by reservation only. Some crews don't bother with lunch reservations when ridership is light. You shouldn't be rushed to eat your meal, but lingering after only means that someone else has their reservation pushed back to a later time. Or if you are in the last seatings, then you're preventing the crew from finishing the clean up and going to bed or on break, depending on which meal it is. And since they're on their feet from 5:30 AMish to 11:00 PM, it's probably not a good idea.

If other's are still eating and it's near the end of the meal period, you can politely ask about lingering for a few minutes, but don't be shocked if they say no.


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## catblue (May 18, 2009)

Thanks for the answers. Just knowing what to expect helps a lot.


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## GoldenSpike (May 18, 2009)

Dr Pickle Pants said:


> catblue said:
> 
> 
> > I was reading the post about "what to bring with you" and it was a long list of things like duct tape, flashlight, etc. I guess it is better to be prepared than needing something you don't have but with the luggage restrictions, small space in the sleeper and not wanting to check baggage I am also planing on packing as light as I can. So what are your "bare minimum" suggestions of things needed besides the obvious things you take when traveling????
> ...


Two comments I couldn't agree with you more:

1> "*Your'e a first-class passenger.....act like it, and act like you expect Amtrak to act like it*..."

Several years ago, I was waiting to catch the TE w/b from Dallas - LAX and had a sleeper. It arrives during lunch if on time. It was running late and the ETA was getting close to the time lunch would be cut off. I expressed, as did the pax behind me in line at the counter I was counting on eating lunch on the train. They contacted the TE and assured it would be no problem.

When the train finally arrived, after dropping off our stuff in the sleeper, the person behind me in line and I went directly to the diner. The dining crew told us 'sorrrrrrrry' despite what the station agent told us. The person with me at the counter I learned later traveled frequently via AMTRAK on business.

He took the bull by the horns telling the dining car supervisor he paid for a sleeper and asked if they were going to deny him a meal he was entitled to, especially after being assured by the station agent we would get lunch. Reply: 'We have stopped serving."

When he asked to speak with the OBS, we were politely invited to sit down and we got our lunch promptly! Incredbily, after we were seated a very elderly couple in our sleeper car already onboard wandered in about 15 minutes later and were seated without a peep from the crew.

2> "*Don't show up in the diner in your underwear*."

Didn't happen, but what is amazing, I have got up late a night to make a pit stop and found other sleeper pax coming back from the outhouse attired in their skivvies! Guess they forgot they are not at home.


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## ruudkeulers (May 19, 2009)

GoldenSpike said:


> I have got up late a night to make a pit stop and found other sleeper pax coming back from the outhouse attired in their skivvies! Guess they forgot they are not at home.




Before I make a fool of myself on my upcoming train trip: what are skivvies?


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## Alice (May 19, 2009)

ruudkeulers said:


> Before I make a fool of myself on my upcoming train trip: what are skivvies?


Hi Ruud, Skivvies are underwear! -Alice


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## ruudkeulers (May 19, 2009)

Alice said:


> ruudkeulers said:
> 
> 
> > Before I make a fool of myself on my upcoming train trip: what are skivvies?
> ...


Thanks Alice, I already expected something like that, but where does the word come from? I can't make a connection to any existing term which would make it easier for me as a foreigner to remember it (relating e.g. to 'mooning' wasn't so difficult  )


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## Bierboy (May 19, 2009)

ruudkeulers said:


> Thanks Alice, I already expected something like that, but where does the word come from? I can't make a connection to any existing term which would make it easier for me as a foreigner to remember it (relating e.g. to 'mooning' wasn't so difficult  )


It's actually a brand name.


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## ruudkeulers (May 19, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> ruudkeulers said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Alice, I already expected something like that, but where does the word come from? I can't make a connection to any existing term which would make it easier for me as a foreigner to remember it (relating e.g. to 'mooning' wasn't so difficult  )
> ...



Which explains everything, thanks!


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## catblue (May 19, 2009)

According to the dictionary:

Skiv·vies (sk iv'ez)

A trademark used for underwear. This trademark often occurs in lowercase in print:

Noun 1. Skivvies - men's underwear consisting of cotton T-shirt and shorts

underclothes, underclothing, underwear - undergarment worn next to the skin and under the outer garments

trademark - a formally registered symbol identifying the manufacturer or distributor of a product.

Guess I am in the minority as well but never ceases to amaze me how casual a society we have become.


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## GoldenSpike (May 19, 2009)

ruudkeulers said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> > ruudkeulers said:
> ...


More than a brand name. While in the navy that was the term used for underwear.


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## catblue (May 20, 2009)

How many passengers would you estimate are on the EB and the California Zephyr at one time on most trips?


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 20, 2009)

catblue said:


> How many passengers would you estimate are on the EB and the California Zephyr at one time on most trips?


That really does depend on whether you just left/are going to arrive at a major terminus.


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## rayray (May 20, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> catblue said:
> 
> 
> > How many passengers would you estimate are on the EB and the California Zephyr at one time on most trips?
> ...


well which is better the viewliner romlette or the superliner one or are they the same ive never been in a superliner roomlette before


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## catblue (May 20, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> catblue said:
> 
> 
> > How many passengers would you estimate are on the EB and the California Zephyr at one time on most trips?
> ...


From Chicago to East Glacier for instance during the day. Just a rough estimate of the top number of passengers there might be.


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## AlanB (May 20, 2009)

rayray said:


> well which is better the viewliner romlette or the superliner one or are they the same ive never been in a superliner roomlette before


I personally prefer the Viewliner roomette, with its extra row of windows, toilet, and the tapered beds.

The Superliner roomette has none of those things.


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## rayray (May 20, 2009)

AlanB said:


> rayray said:
> 
> 
> > well which is better the viewliner romlette or the superliner one or are they the same ive never been in a superliner roomlette before
> ...


wow can somebody give a picture to show what it looks like even thouh i still perfer the viewliner and amfleet COZY


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 20, 2009)

catblue said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > catblue said:
> ...


Well-- IIRC the episode that featured the EB on "Extreme Trains" said 220. Though by the time they arrived at MSP I think they would probably have increased that number... Remember with trains and people getting on and off it is hard to tell. It is not uncommon to sell a consist of the EB twice over I would think, at least in coach. I remember on my trips out there in coach (I was always CHI-PDX, or SEA-CHI, never getting off in the middle) they would seat the people going to the terminus in different sets (usually letting them take the window seat) and using the aisle seat for the short-term pax getting on and off. I had no less than three seat partners during the entire trip, allowing me to stretch my legs when they weren't on board and at least one night where I had both seats to myself.

The EB could easily serve 1000 pax, again I should think, in a good run.


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## EB_OBS (May 20, 2009)

On the EB, each sleeper can accommodate around 40 passengers. There are three sleepers during peak season. Each coach can seat between 68 - 84 depending upon if it has a lower level. Between CHI and MSP during peak season an additional coach is added at the rear of the consist.

The most full that I personally ever witnessed on the EB was 122 passengers in the sleepers and 344 traveling in coach. This was between CHI and MSP. We still can commonly have nearly 300 even without the additional MSP coach.

Last year before Christmas I saw a number of manifests that showed a total of over 1200 boarding the train between CHI and SEA. The holiday seasons generate a lot of short distance tickets.


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## sunchaser (May 21, 2009)

rayray said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > rayray said:
> ...


Try looking at this link (choose roomette)- http://tour.amtraktrains.com/


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## catblue (May 21, 2009)

That can be a lot of passengers. Arn‘t the roomettes the same on the EB & the CZ?


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## jis (May 21, 2009)

catblue said:


> That can be a lot of passengers. Arn‘t the roomettes the same on the EB & the CZ?


Yes


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## Bierboy (May 23, 2009)

Got to Glacier on the Empire Builder #7 (Sleeper) this past Thursday. Here was the consist --

Loco

Loco

Baggage

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Diner

Coach

Coach

Sightseer

Coach

Sleeper

Sleeper

We ran anywhere from 15-30 minutes late through Havre, but made it all up by the time we hit Essex

Wonderful trip...great food...great folks to visit with...excellent car attendant (Gary).

Doing the CZ fall 2010....can't wait.


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## Rail Freak (May 23, 2009)

on the EB #27, Where is the baggage area?


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## Rail Freak (May 23, 2009)

On the #27 EB leg, is the sightseerer lounge busy?


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## the_traveler (May 23, 2009)

The #27/28 baggage area is the lower level of a coach/baggage car. (Instead of lower level seating, this area is used for baggage.) The Sightseer is no more or less used as "normal".


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## catblue (May 23, 2009)

What is the difference in the #7 & #27 EB?


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## the_traveler (May 23, 2009)

catblue said:


> What is the difference in the #7 & #27 EB?


"Train" #7/8 operate between CHI and SEA. "Train" #27/28 operate between CHI and PDX. However *BOTH* "trains" operate together between CHI and SPK! But due to the limitations of Arrow (reservations), they must be given different "train numbers".

If you are traveling from anywhere east of SPK to anywhere east of SPK, chose the "train" with the lowest fare. (There is just 1 train!)


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