# Hoosier State/Iowa Pacific Transition Thread



## keelhauled (Mar 6, 2015)

The Hoosier State's last run will be on April 1. http://www.jconline.com/story/news/2015/03/06/amtrak-service-end-april/24500857/


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## neroden (Mar 6, 2015)

Unfortunately this does not surprise me; it's Indiana, and the Indiana state government has been trying to prevent train service for as long as I can remember.

We should see some collateral damage to Cardinal ridership. Hopefully Amtrak will get its act together and make the Cardinal daily sooner rather than later (though I don't think they can do it before 2016 in any case).


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## Frequent traveller (Mar 6, 2015)

This, of course, was Indian's plan all along. They are willing to subsidize bus service along the route, but not train service.


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## jis (Mar 6, 2015)

That was their plan all along. Every other state has figured out how to run their trains without setting up any unnecessary bureaucracy, so that stupid excuse just says that Indiana DOT is particularly incompetent. That's all.


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## neroden (Mar 6, 2015)

jis said:


> That was their plan all along. Every other state has figured out how to run their trains without setting up any unnecessary bureaucracy, so that stupid excuse just says that Indiana DOT is particularly incompetent. That's all.


They could subcontract to NICTD, for example.  The State of Indiana already pays for the operation of an FRA-regulated railroad. This is, as you say, just excuses.

The Heartland Flyer (which will now be the most expensive state-supported train on a per-passenger-mile basis, though much cheaper than the Hoosier State) is apparently at risk as well (though less risk) according to news reports.

This leaves the Sunset Limited as the most expensive on a per-passenger-mile basis, followed by the Cardinal. Here's hoping Amtrak can get the daily Cardinal and daily Sunset soon and get them back in line financially with the rest of the trains. With the Viewliner IIs coming 2015 and 2016, and the Midwest/California bilevels coming starting at the end of 2015 (and freeing up Amtrak-owned equipment for other service), and the Charger locos coming in fall of 2016 (and freeing up Amtrak-owned equipment for other service), there should be enough locomotives and rolling stock to do so in 2016 or 2017 -- certainly for the Cardinal. Amtrak should be pushing hard on the negotiations and capital improvements for a daily Cardinal now. Unfortunately there seems to be some sort of lack of business sense at Amtrak's long distance division.


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## jis (Mar 6, 2015)

neroden said:


> We should see some collateral damage to Cardinal ridership. Hopefully Amtrak will get its act together and make the Cardinal daily sooner rather than later (though I don't think they can do it before 2016 in any case).


If Amtrak wanted to be really obtuse and eat some losses, they could create a train that runs from Detroit to Huntington WV, via Chicago, barely meeting the 750 mile requirement, pending the completion of the upgrades on BBRR. Just a completely off the wall random idea, I must admit, with zero possibility for execution.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 6, 2015)

jis said:


> If Amtrak wanted to be really obtuse and eat some losses, they could create a train that runs from Detroit to Huntington WV, via Chicago, barely meeting the 750 mile requirement, pending the completion of the upgrades on BBRR. Just a completely off the wall random idea, I must admit, with zero possibility for execution.


Awesome! They could call it "The Gerrymander".


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## John Bredin (Mar 6, 2015)

fairviewroad said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > If Amtrak wanted to be really obtuse and eat some losses, they could create a train that runs from Detroit to Huntington WV, via Chicago, barely meeting the 750 mile requirement, pending the completion of the upgrades on BBRR. Just a completely off the wall random idea, I must admit, with zero possibility for execution.
> ...


To go along with the Blue Water, how about the Crystal Waters? "Back to the middle and around again!" :giggle:


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## afigg (Mar 6, 2015)

So the other shoe drops. Pretty clear that IN DOT was looking for an excuse to not fund the Hoosier State all along. IN DOT press release with more info on their justifications (well, whining excuses). Excerpt:



> Under new rules that the FRA is testing with Indiana, all states that support passenger rail services would be considered railroad carriers. This burdensome interpretation exposes states to significant increases in cost, paperwork and liability, including:
> 
> 
> Liability for the actions of passenger rail providers up to $200 million for each occurrence of injury, death or property damage,
> ...


Over 20 other states are doing this, it should be not that difficult for IN to do so as well. This INDOT move clears the way - eventually - for a daily Cardinal. I think Amtrak management has not discussed or made any official plans for a daily Cardinal since the PIP report because they wanted to give IN every opportunity to fund the HS with both operating subsidies and capital investments. Any public discussion of a daily Cardinal in IN would have given IN DOT a reason to not support the HS at all, right from the October 1, 2013 changeover.

The roadblocks for a daily Cardinal are not just equipment, but the condition of and lack of long sidings on the Buckingham Branch in VA. Indiana could observe that Virginia is providing tens of millions of state funds to the BBRR as a Class 3 short line railroad to get the tracks and signal systems to a state of good repair as an example of how a state government sees value in having a viable and maintained freight rail system. VA is funding $4.9 million towards building a long siding on the BBRR so the 8000' long empty coal trains have a place to pull over on the single track line. Don't know the timeframe for construction of the siding but the second installment is in the FY16 state budget. I think Virginia would be happy to see a daily Cardinal by 2017 - would go nicely with a train to Roanoke and a second Lynchburger.


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## CHamilton (Mar 6, 2015)

More information. http://wlfi.com/2015/03/06/indot-hoosier-state-line-to-end-april-1/


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## Paulus (Mar 6, 2015)

No big loss. What incentive did InDOT have to support it anyhow if VA and others will effectively pay for it in a few years with a daily Cardinal?


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## jis (Mar 6, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> More information. http://wlfi.com/2015/03/06/indot-hoosier-state-line-to-end-april-1/


All it says is Indiana is unwilling to do what every other state with state run trains has been doing. C'est la vie. It is astounding that it took them one year to figure out what their responsibilities are. Perhaps they should have considered all this before all the bravado about we will run our own privately run train operated by an outfit that has never run a train before. Really!


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## Ryan (Mar 6, 2015)

Paulus said:


> No big loss.


Unless you live there or want to visit.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 6, 2015)

This whole event was an exercise in bad comedy. The outcome is not entirely unexpected.


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## Palmland (Mar 6, 2015)

afigg said:


> So the other shoe drops. Pretty clear that IN DOT was looking for an excuse to not fund the Hoosier State all along. IN DOT press release with more info on their justifications (well, whining excuses). Excerpt:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It could be that the problem is not the state but the federal government. As the press release states, the FRA is testing *new rules* that require the states to be considered railroads. If so, look out. An earlier statement from Indiana quoted by the Lafayette Journal and Courier : "Gov. Mike Pence’s spending recommendation contains language similar to Truitt’s bill, but goes one step further. In addition to funding the service, Pence’s plan authorizes INDOT to purchase rail equipment."


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## jis (Mar 6, 2015)

Here is some more on the Indiana story:

http://www.indianahighspeedrail.org/docs/2015/201503aai.pdf

Incidentally insurance underwriting for passenger service has been a problem in the past too. Remember the delay in getting the Texas Eagle to move over to the non-UP route between Dallas and Fort Worth?

We really need to get more detail on what FRA is asking and how it differs from all other states to get a better understanding of this. Since Ed Ellis says there is a problem, there likely is a problem, since he knows his stuff. But we have not gotten enough detail yet to know what it really is all about.


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## jis (Mar 6, 2015)

Statement from Amtrak:



> AMTRAK STATEMENT FROM PRESIDENT AND CEO JOSEPH BOARDMAN
> 
> WASHINGTON -- The following statement is issued today by Amtrak President and CEO Joseph Boardman regarding an announcement made this afternoon by the Indiana Department of Transportation:
> 
> ...


I wonder how this squares with the postings on trainorders regarding Amtrak pushing FRA, and the undying desire of the InDOT rank and file to make Hoosier State service continue. Very curious.


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## JATX (Mar 6, 2015)

John Bredin said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Wow that is a song from the past. ^_^


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## Paulus (Mar 6, 2015)

RyanS said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > No big loss.
> ...


It's a terrible line not worthy of any recommendation for visitors or residents.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 6, 2015)

Boom, I am out of popcorn.

If the cardinal does go 7 day a week can we have it end in St Louis, or Kansas City?

Are we still service the smaller town on this route with the 3 day a week Cardinal? Or are we going to skip them? If we are not going to skip them, then it just a pain to travel now, not impossible.

Not sure I see what the fuss is. Do we really care.

Sorry.


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## SarahZ (Mar 6, 2015)

Paulus said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Paulus said:
> ...


You seriously don't think Indianapolis and Chicago, two major cities in the Midwest, are "worthy" of a daily connection?


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## Paulus (Mar 6, 2015)

SarahZ said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > RyanS said:
> ...


Didn't say that. Said that the Hoosier is a terrible line. Terribly slow and terrible times.


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## Ryan (Mar 6, 2015)

And canceling the HS is _definitely_ going to fix that.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 6, 2015)

Maybe Amtrak should use the Cardinal equipment plus the new Viewliners to resume the Broadway Limited and run it 7 days a week,? ( IF it could be worked out with the Class I RRs?)

That almost certainly would be a well patronized train! The Hoosier and Card slot to Indy could be used for a Hospital train to Beech Grove!

Personally I like the idea of having the Card continuing but terminate it in STL instead of CHI on a 7 day a werk schedule!

As an alternate the long talked about thru cars from the Penn to the Cap would be a better use of the equipment and staff that work the Card, even though we train buffs love the scenery on the Card route!


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## afigg (Mar 6, 2015)

jis said:


> I wonder how this squares with the postings on trainorders regarding Amtrak pushing FRA, and the undying desire of the InDOT rank and file to make Hoosier State service continue. Very curious.


I saw some of those INDOT staff really wanted to keep the HS posts on trainorders. But that does not square with the INDOT press release announcing the end of service coming out on Friday afternoon. Which is the classic time for agencies and companies to put out negative news that they want to have sink with barely a ripple because by Monday the news cycle will have moved on. Perhaps there is a split between the staff at INDOT and what the political appointees & the Governor's office want.
Boardman is offering to run the HS on a month to month contract basis which is a generous offer. My conclusion is that we should take any claims from INDOT about the FRA issues with a big grain of salt. If these are onerous new regulations, why have we not heard a fuss from other states yet?


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## jis (Mar 6, 2015)

The FRA issue is apparently quite serious, and it is not limited to affecting INDOT. Sources independent of INDOT now say that FRA intends to apply the same rules that it is trying on INDOT to all other state rail operators. The claim made by some is that FRA is circumventing normal rule making processes and using an ad hoc process to conjure up new rules on the fly, which is not a good omen. FRA tried to impose similar egregious rules on NCDOT several years back. NCDOT sued and won. Now FRA is giving it another try, both times without following proper procedures. So this might actually go to court with several states eventually suing FRA, if what I am hearing is accurate. We have not heard from other states yet apparently because FRA has not told them that they have to abide by these new rules yet. There is something quite fishy going on possibly.


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## CombRidge (Mar 6, 2015)

A classic case of where ideology trumps common sense: INDOT was so convinced that privatization was the solution (forgetting that Amtrak exists because of the failure of privitization) that they dug themselves into a deep hole where the only losers are the travelling public. Also one wonders about conflict of interest because INDOT already subsizes bus service along the same route.


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## MattW (Mar 6, 2015)

jis said:


> The FRA issue is apparently quite serious, and it is not limited to affecting INDOT. Sources independent of INDOT now say that FRA intends to apply the same rules that it is trying on INDOT to all other state rail operators. The claim made by some is that FRA is circumventing normal rule making processes and using an ad hoc process to conjure up new rules on the fly, which is not a good omen. FRA tried to impose similar egregious rules on NCDOT several years back. NCDOT sued and won. Now FRA is giving it another try, both times without following proper procedures. So this might actually go to court with several states eventually suing FRA, if what I am hearing is accurate. We have not heard from other states yet apparently because FRA has not told them that they have to abide by these new rules yet. There is something quite fishy going on possibly.


Jis, are you able to/do you have more detail on what exactly it is the FRA is forcing on INDOT in what seem to be a "pilot" for other states.


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## afigg (Mar 6, 2015)

The plot thickens. Trains Magazine has a news wire which is behind a paywall, but those with Trains mag subscriptions may want to read it: Indiana may challenge FRA decision; Iowa Pacific reveals planned ‘Hoosier State’ equipment. I'm posting what I hope is a fair use excerpt with most of it quoting a statement from the FRA that I can't find on the FRA website. Probably a statement that was sent directly to the press that will be on the FRA website later.



> “We’re not going to close off any options (for continuing the service), Commissioner Karl Browning says, but “the notion of the state having to become a railroad (to operate the Hoosier State) is insane.” The state’s correspondence is available online at www.in.gov/indot.
> 
> “Ensuring the safety of all of our Nation’s intercity passenger rail services is the top priority for the FRA. State-supported intercity passenger rail services are a key element of our rail network, carrying nearly half of Amtrak’s 31 million passengers. The states that sponsor these services have played a large part in their success,” the FRA says in a statement. “As States assume a more active role in the management of these services, including in some instances contracting with multiple service providers, they must more closely ensure their services are safe for the passengers, train crews, and communities in which they serve. States ultimately have oversight responsibility for their contractors and service providers. We are fully supportive of States finding the best, most cost-effective way to safely deliver their intercity passenger rail services and will continue to work with INDOT to keep the Hoosier service running safely.”


Busy Friday afternoon for return fire press statements.


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## jis (Mar 6, 2015)

MattW said:


> Jis, are you able to/do you have more detail on what exactly it is the FRA is forcing on INDOT in what seem to be a "pilot" for other states.


On this page:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3681883,page=2

Read the messages from "eee" - that is Ed Ellis of Iowa Pacific, and you will see the sort of things that FRA is demanding, just because INDOT wants to contract out the equipment and operations. As it appears they demanded the same of NCDOT several years back. NCDOT sued and won. So thanks to our friendly FRA we will go through the same song and dance again probably, this time with INDOT, and then when FRA in its infinite wisdom tries to do this with everyone else then every other state involved too. Who knows. This is a bit bizarre. Of course the fact that FRA currently does not have a real Administrator, just an Acting one, is probably adding to the non-decision making at FRA too, not that they are too good even with a full scale Administrator mind you. 

Unfortunately, you have to be a member of trainroders to see the specific messages since they are on page 2, and since it is a pay site, I am reluctant to copy messages whoesale since that would certainly be contrary to copyrights.


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## looshi (Mar 6, 2015)

This ruling by the FRA really opens up an amazing can of worms. It goes beyond the Hoosier State to the Downeaster and even beyond the public sector. If I'm reading these interpretations correct, my hometown which contracts with a tourist railroad for passenger and freight service on a 4-mile branchline is now considered to be a railroad.


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## XHRTSP (Mar 6, 2015)

If this train goes away as planned, where does its equipment go?


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## afigg (Mar 6, 2015)

XHRTSP said:


> If this train goes away as planned, where does its equipment go?


There are only a few Horizon coach cars that would get freed up by the termination of the HS. Which would presumably stay in the Midwest pool until the new corridor bi-level cars arrive.


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## Anderson (Mar 7, 2015)

jis said:


> The FRA issue is apparently quite serious, and it is not limited to affecting INDOT. Sources independent of INDOT now say that FRA intends to apply the same rules that it is trying on INDOT to all other state rail operators. The claim made by some is that FRA is circumventing normal rule making processes and using an ad hoc process to conjure up new rules on the fly, which is not a good omen. FRA tried to impose similar egregious rules on NCDOT several years back. NCDOT sued and won. Now FRA is giving it another try, both times without following proper procedures. So this might actually go to court with several states eventually suing FRA, if what I am hearing is accurate. We have not heard from other states yet apparently because FRA has not told them that they have to abide by these new rules yet. There is something quite fishy going on possibly.


Yeah, I'm putting the blame for this squarely on the FRA. I can't see the post over on TO, but this is an FRA problem (and a rather horrid one at that given the potential impacts). I think there's also something to be said for the concept that the states, given their size, ought not to have to get the insurance policies.

If/when this policy is challenged, I do hope that whomever challenges it manages to get a permanent injunction on the FRA doing this again.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

afigg said:


> So the other shoe drops. Pretty clear that IN DOT was looking for an excuse to not fund the Hoosier State all along. IN DOT press release with more info on their justifications (well, whining excuses). Excerpt:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh, you have to remember how long it took most of those states to even reach agreements on those Section 209 metrics with Amtrak, which the October 2013 Trains Magazine article pretty much laid out--not to mention huge price increases for those state agencies since none of them opted to select other operators at the time. CA paid an *extra $19 million* to keep its three routes under Amtrak control and the much heralded *profit* VA made on the Lynchburg service evaporated and became *a substantial subsidy* after October 1, 2013.

While Indiana has seriously wet the bed in many areas, I don't blame some of the officials who really want better train service and aren't getting it with the current operator. After all, the Hoosier is still the only one of the 19 state-sponsored services that is less than daily--a major blow to anyone's ego.



Palmland said:


> It could be that the problem is not the state but the federal government. As the press release states, the FRA is testing *new rules* that require the states to be considered railroads. If so, look out. An earlier statement from Indiana quoted by the Lafayette Journal and Courier : "Gov. Mike Pence’s spending recommendation contains language similar to Truitt’s bill, but goes one step further. In addition to funding the service, Pence’s plan authorizes INDOT to purchase rail equipment."





jis said:


> Here is some more on the Indiana story:
> 
> http://www.indianahighspeedrail.org/docs/2015/201503aai.pdf
> 
> ...


This is more than likely a salvo being fired against TX, OK, WA & OR--especially the two Northwestern states since they are more likely than the two Southern states to dump Amtrak in favor of another operator for their Cascades service. This potential scare tactic with IN could serve to discourage states from exploring other options.

Maybe, Congress needs to reorganize the FRA before it damages intercity rail. *The challengers to Amtrak are there*, it's a matter of whether any of them will get a fair shake from Washington.

Boardman needs to figure out which routes would be better off in the hands of other companies and Congress needs to figure out how to make competitive bidding for intercity routes actually work so we don't have this brouhaha erupting in other states if they also get dissatisfied with Amtrak.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

PRIIA '08 was basically an imploding time bomb whose effects are only now being felt. Talk about unintended (or intended by some very clever nefarious individual) consequences,


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## PRR 60 (Mar 7, 2015)

This FRA move smells like a cooperative effort between Amtrak and FRA to prevent states from exercising their right to contract rail service as set forth by PRIIA. It sure seems like Joe Boardman's "we can run the train" press release was in the can and ready to go. Let's see: Joe Boardman is the CEO of Amtrak. Joe's job immediately prior to joining Amtrak to become CEO: Administrator of the FRA.

For less subsidy than Amtrak was charging, Iowa Pacific was going to provide much better equipment, including a full-length dome for Business Class including a meal and beverages. Now, Amtrak's solution is, effectively, "pay us more for less." In this case, much less. Those who support the growth of passenger rail should be very troubled by this action. If I'm North Caroline, Maine, California, and even the midwest states soon to own their own cars and power, I'd be very, very concerned. FRA is effectively saying to use Amtrak or else we'll bury you under so many regulations that you will never again see the light of day.

I hope Indiana stands firm. Were I Indiana DOT, I would go straight to federal court and argue the North Carolina precedent, and that the FRA (with or without Amtrak's collusion) is overriding the rights of the states to operate rail service as set forth by PRIIA. These multitude of requirements are already being met by the railroads contracted for the service (in this case, including Amtrak) and requiring the state to become a "railroad" and per FRA is duplicitous and is a not very well disguised way to prevent the state from exercising its right to contract for rail service as permitted by law.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 7, 2015)

I must add my views on the FRA requirement, which is ludicrous. There's no need for a state to become a "railroad" when services are contracted with an already accredited "railroad" such as Iowa Pacific. It looks like Amtrak and FRA are working together to stop any other operator from stepping forward, which I'm sure was not the intended effects of PRIIA.


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## jis (Mar 7, 2015)

I agree with PRR and Mike's analysis and position in broad terms. Indeed I already mentioned on trainorders in response to Ed's message the absurdity of what FRA is asked BF for. It sure does smell like the FRA and Amtrak are colluding at least implicitly. Amtrak is playing both sides to some extent since they did join INDOT in protesting FRA's position apparently, according to some in the know. There might be some minor disagreement in the details in the weeds.

What worries me is that this will blow up politically during the Surface Transportation appropriation process. The consequences potentially could be painful. For that reason I think it would be good to find a way to get FRA to behave more reasonably. Otherwise Congress might micro manage them some, and with good justification unfortunately, as it seems at present!


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## tootootrain (Mar 7, 2015)

There has been a strong resistance to passenger rail development for decades in Indiana. The magnificent train station in Indianapolis has turned into a shopping mall while politicians are trying to bury the reminesence of rail travel as deep as they can. This is consistent with the culture in Indiana - one that is either afraid of or right out hate progress or progressive thinking.


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## dlagrua (Mar 7, 2015)

I am sorry to hear of the Hoosier State's discontinuance but all is not lost. The Cardinal still runs from Indianapolis to Chicago three days per week. A daily Cardinal is necessary but when will it happen? Will it ever happen? Don't believe it to be in Amtrak's plans.

I must agree that Indiana is an anti-rail state. At one time the Monon Railroad (Indiana's own) served the state passenger service well at one time the Monon (Later L &N) served 6 colleges along it route:

Perdue University in West Layayette

Wabash College In Crawfordsvile

DePauw University in Greencastle

Indiana University in Bloomington

Butler University in Indianapolis

St Josephs College in Rensselaer

The college traffic was so important that the railroad used college colors to paint its locomotives. You would think that after the Monon/L&N went out of business that Indiana would consider the student passenger traffic. They just walked away and late reluctantly funded the Hoosier state.

At this time there may be a little hope for a private company top step in and re-establish the service but who knows. According to the news report meeting the mandatory requirements imposed by the federal government for keeping the service going (by contracting with Iowa Pacific) would be cost prohibitive.

.


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## Riverviewer (Mar 7, 2015)

Purdue University, West Lafayette.


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## jis (Mar 7, 2015)

Incidentally the proposed contracting involves Amtrak providing the T&E crew, Iowa Pacific providing equipment, OBS crew and marketing. Just so people don't misunderstand what is being proposed. Given this situation FRA is so far insisting that it is not good enough for trained personnel at Amtrak and IP to carry out the railroad operations related regulatory functions, but that INDOT must set up an entire railroad department.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks for the clarification jis, hopefully the Indiana AG will expedite a law suit and win an injunction against the FRA before the Hoosier vanishes!


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 7, 2015)

dlagrua said:


> I am sorry to hear of the Hoosier State's discontinuance but all is not lost. The Cardinal still runs from Indianapolis to Chicago three days per week.


Somehow I don't think that helps people who use the train for their *daily* commute.


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## CHamilton (Mar 7, 2015)

States for Passenger Rail Coalition Comments on Indiana’s Decision to Stop Sponsoring the Hoosier State


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## tootootrain (Mar 7, 2015)

About a decade ago, the town of Lafayette and West Lafayette made a lot of efforts to revive the rail culture by spending a lot of money to relocate the old train station. It was a major event for the locals with formal ceremony and all. But a few months later, Amtrak reduced the station down to an unmanned station. Only an automated ticket kiosh was in operation. The trains traveling through this university town were sluggish and furstrating to ride on. It looks like somebody were trying to KILL the entire train service system in the US - or at least in this part of the country! Quite pathetic!


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## neroden (Mar 7, 2015)

afigg said:


> Perhaps there is a split between the staff at INDOT and what the political appointees & the Governor's office want.


There's a lot of evidence of this dating back several years.



jis said:


> The FRA issue is apparently quite serious, and it is not limited to affecting INDOT. Sources independent of INDOT now say that FRA intends to apply the same rules that it is trying on INDOT to all other state rail operators. The claim made by some is that FRA is circumventing normal rule making processes and using an ad hoc process to conjure up new rules on the fly, which is not a good omen. FRA tried to impose similar egregious rules on NCDOT several years back. NCDOT sued and won. Now FRA is giving it another try, both times without following proper procedures. So this might actually go to court with several states eventually suing FRA, if what I am hearing is accurate.


I don't think that would even make it to the appeals court level, since there's precedent; the FRA would get slapped down very fast. I mostly know STB caselaw, but I believe there's a huge line of cases which make it very clear that the state can do pretty much everything without being regulated as a railroad, as long as there is a "responsible railroad" somewhere in the contracting sequence, which there is.
This is "State of Maine" precedent. It's not going to be overturned by a rogue Acting Administrator. Indiana could probably get a restraining order against the FRA in a week.



> Under new rules that the FRA is testing with Indiana, all states that support passenger rail services would be considered railroad carriers.


The FRA has zero authority to do this. The rulings of the Surface Transportation Board are very, very clear on this matter.
Indiana could probably get an emergency injunction overnight, either from a court or from the STB. Actually, Indiana could probably get the acting FRA administrator personally fined. If I were the Indiana AG, I'd ask for a writ of mandamus, ordering the FRA to follow the established caselaw and stop issuing illegal orders. (I see that the federal courts have renamed the writ of mandamus, but there's still some equivalent order.)

It has been noted on Trainorders that this is a violation of the Administrative Procedure Act,

The worrisome aspect is that Indiana may use this as an excuse to discontinue the line. If the FRA tries to pull this nonsense on North Carolina, Virginia, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, New York, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri, (deep breath), California, Oregon, or Washington, I don't think they're going to get very far.

But Indiana may use this as an excuse to not try.

----

Quoting Andrew Selden from the coments to the "Trains" article:



> The FRA's action is also illegal, as it violates existing federal law. FRA has no authority to modify or extend the jurisdiction or scope of the Railway Labor Act, FELA or the railroad retirement laws to apply to a state government. Only the RRB and NMB (or the Federal courts) have jurisdiction to determine the scope of those laws. Nothing in existing federal law authorizes FRA to decree that a sovereign state is a "railroad" merely because it sponsors an intercity train service operated by a qualified non-Amtrak carrier over a Class 1 railroad. (As I recall, NRPC itself wasn't even a formal "railroad" when it was first chartered and assumed legal and financial ownership of the surviving trains as they continued to be operated by the various host railroads.)
> 
> In addition, the FRA action is illegal because it violates the federal Administrative Procedures Act, which mandates public notice, drafts of a proposed regulatory action, and public comment before an agency can impose new regulations. FRA has done none of that.


As far as I can tell from what I know of railroad law, he's completely correct. The STB has some authority as well. The FRA has none, N-O-N-E, none. Basically, the only authority possessed by the FRA is the ability to determine whether railway safety equipment is adequate. (And they've done a crap job at that, by the way.)


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## neroden (Mar 7, 2015)

jis said:


> What worries me is that this will blow up politically during the Surface Transportation appropriation process. The consequences potentially could be painful. For that reason I think it would be good to find a way to get FRA to behave more reasonably. Otherwise Congress might micro manage them some, and with good justification unfortunately, as it seems at present!


Congress could simply abolish the FRA and transfer its residual regulatory responsibilities to the Surface Transportation Board. This should, in fact, be actively suggested. The FRA has been a hindrance to rail service nationwide for a very long time.


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## Riverviewer (Mar 7, 2015)

Rail service to/from Lafayette was lousy way back when, when I was at Purdue. The L&N did little to no maintenance on the ex-Monon tracks north of town, which led to slow orders, delays, derailments, and eventually no more train service for some time.


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## Railroad Bill (Mar 7, 2015)

Pence only won the election for governor by 80,000 votes with the Libertarian candidate pulling 100,000 that might have put the Democrats in the governor's seat. Perhaps if Democrats in Indiana worked harder they could win the governor's seat in 2016 and get Indiana back on track for more and better rail service.


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## Ryan (Mar 8, 2015)

neroden said:


> The worrisome aspect is that Indiana may use this as an excuse to discontinue the line. If the FRA tries to pull this nonsense on North Carolina, Virginia, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, New York, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri, (deep breath), California, Oregon, or Washington, I don't think they're going to get very far.
> 
> But Indiana may use this as an excuse to not try.


The suspicious part of me thinks that this is exactly why the FRA is trying to use Indiana as a "test case", counting on them to not fight it. If I were one of the other states you listed, I'd be raising all sorts of hell with anyone that will listen.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2015)

I am almost certain that Florida DOT wont be pleased either if it was told that it must become a railroad because it funds SunRail and TriRail either.

FRA does have a few legitimate functions, some of which unfortunately it does not appear to carry out too efficiently either. but this power grab is not one of them. It is time that its wings got a trimming. Unfortunately the Democrats are unlikely to do that in this partisan atmosphere. I shudder to think that it might ultimately be a Mica who will have to lead this charge. Sigh....

Let's face it.... Boardman is looking after his flock using every means available to him. While he may be going beyond what we might like, it is part of his job.

OTOH, things are starting to happen. Here is reaction from the S4PRC Chair Patricia Quinn, who also happens to be the boss of NNEPRA which runs the Downeaster:



> News Release
> 
> For Immediate Release Patricia Quinn, Chair, S4PRC
> 
> ...


It is becoming clear to others one by one that FRA needs some adult supervision. The question is will the administration step upto the plate and provide some leadership, or will it just prevaricate and let Congress handle the issue as part of appropriations?


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## looshi (Mar 8, 2015)

It's too late for the House version of the PRIIA reauthorization, but I expect that we will see some movement regarding this with the Senate's version and the eventual law. There are too many influential Congresspeople that consider private passenger service a priority. These people have been watching the situation in Indiana closely.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2015)

Looks like there needs to be some clear language added that gives instruction to FRA about what it must not do.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2015)

Here is an article from a newspaper from a town on the route of the Hoosier State:

http://www.journalreview.com/news/article_3148d4f6-c46a-11e4-a2ee-e74dc085c3ca.html


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## Riverviewer (Mar 8, 2015)

Here's a story from today's _Lafayette Journal & Courier_ about the Hoosier State & Amtrak service to Lafayette.

http://www.jconline.com/story/news/2015/03/08/amtrak-hoosier-state-questions-answered-lafayette/24612395/


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## neroden (Mar 8, 2015)

Thanks for that story. It has a link to the letter which INDOT sent to Secretary Foxx calling out the FRA.

http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_SecretaryFoxxLetter_030615.pdf

Indiana is clearly angry at the FRA goofballs and has decided to make a serious fuss; this tactic (sending the DOT Secretary a letter, warning that this will be splashed across the Indiana media, and cc:ing it to all of Indiana's Congresspeople) is definitely an attempt to get Foxx or Congress to crack down on the rogue elements at the FRA.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 9, 2015)

Why waste time and money trying to force passenger rail on states that obviously don't want it? Say goodbye to anti-rail regions and focus on improving services in pro-rail states instead. The half supported half hated national passenger network is a huge albatross to carry around our necks. No need to perpetually fight a loosing battle until the bitter end. The longer we drag this battle out the more likely it will be to take everything down with it. Better to drop unsupported trains now and put those resourced to work where they're actually appreciated.


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## neroden (Mar 9, 2015)

DA: This fight has alerted the governments of a bunch of states which do support passenger rail to anti-passenger-rail shenanigans by the FRA. That's worth fighting.


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## inthegauge (Mar 9, 2015)

None of this would be happening had PRIIA not been jammed down the throat of a railroad that depends on a nationwide system of funding rather than carving it into no more than 46 pieces for each of the states to pretend they know what to do with it.

Thanks, PRIIA, for putting Amtrak on the auction block!


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## Paulus (Mar 9, 2015)

inthegauge said:


> None of this would be happening had PRIIA not been jammed down the throat of a railroad that depends on a nationwide system of funding rather than carving it into no more than 46 pieces for each of the states to pretend they know what to do with it.
> 
> Thanks, PRIIA, for putting Amtrak on the auction block!


Oh no, states are paying their full share for local service and have more say in the matter! What a horrible travesty this is! What horrors might they come up with next, _frequent service_?!


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## jis (Mar 9, 2015)

Paulus said:


> inthegauge said:
> 
> 
> > None of this would be happening had PRIIA not been jammed down the throat of a railroad that depends on a nationwide system of funding rather than carving it into no more than 46 pieces for each of the states to pretend they know what to do with it.
> ...


California already did. It is such a horrible thought that everything is not controlled out of one single galactic headquarters.!


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## Anderson (Mar 9, 2015)

The problem is that while the requirements the FRA might try jamming stuff down the states' throats can be taken up by, say, California (which has a massive system and I could see some sort of "umbrella" policy sweeping in Metrolink, ACE, and Amtrak California)...in the case of Indiana (one less-than-daily route) and some other states, the requirement becomes onerous. In some cases (NC or VA), they'd fight, but in the case of IN (which was inclined to keep the train but which seems to have seriously wanted to work with someone other than Amtrak...considering that Amtrak blew them off on service improvements for many years who can blame them) the fight wasn't worth it for a less-than-daily train.


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## Riverviewer (Mar 10, 2015)

Another perspective....from a columnist in the _Lafayette Journal & Courier:_

http://www.jconline.com/story/opinion/columnists/dave-bangert/2015/03/09/hoosier-state-insane-expectations/24668453/


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## Palmetto (Mar 10, 2015)

And Ohio isn't far behind Indiana.


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## Paulus (Mar 10, 2015)

Anderson said:


> The problem is that while the requirements the FRA might try jamming stuff down the states' throats can be taken up by, say, California (which has a massive system and I could see some sort of "umbrella" policy sweeping in Metrolink, ACE, and Amtrak California)...in the case of Indiana (one less-than-daily route) and some other states, the requirement becomes onerous. In some cases (NC or VA), they'd fight, but in the case of IN (which was inclined to keep the train but which seems to have seriously wanted to work with someone other than Amtrak...considering that Amtrak blew them off on service improvements for many years who can blame them) the fight wasn't worth it for a less-than-daily train.


Was referring to the "Oh no, PRIIA!" rather than this bit of insanity, which doesn't even have anything to do with PRIIA.


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## mlhughes0522 (Mar 11, 2015)

There is 3 things this could go 1st is shut down, 2nd indot or congress/ect can stop the shut down. 3rd amtrak start daily service from Washington-Chicago With connection to New York

I like the 3rd Thing to happen


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## Ryan (Mar 11, 2015)

That isn't going to happen.


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## jis (Mar 11, 2015)

You may prefeer the third but it is not happening. Even when it happens it will be Chicago - New York service, and it is at least a couple of years away, if not more.


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## mlhughes0522 (Mar 11, 2015)

What I meant was to cut the Cardinal from NYP-CHI and do the Cardinal daily from WAS-CHI with connection to/from NYP weekday m-f 181 NYP-WAS to 51; 50 to 188 WAS-NYP, weekend 131 NYP-WAS to 51; 50 to 182 WAS-NYP;

So daily 51 departs WAS 11a arrives CHI 10a; 50 departs CHI 5:40p arrives WAS 6:00p

Just like CAPITOL LIMITED is daily from WAS-CHI 29/30


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## jis (Mar 11, 2015)

And that is what we said is not going to happen


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## Ryan (Mar 12, 2015)

Cutting the Cardinal from NYP to WAS will do absolutely nothing to help it go daily. Until the BBRR and CSX are prepared to host a train daily (which won't be for several years), it ain't going to happen.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 12, 2015)

Right now the Buckingham Branch schedules it's freight operation around the days Amtrak is coming through. They basically run very little freight on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday - the Cardinal days on the line, then move their freight on the other days. This keeps the line clear for Amtrak despite the capacity and siding length issues. Go to daily operation, and they lose that work-around ability. Now, major capacity improvements will be needed, and even then, Amtrak will have to deal with long, slow freights.


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## MrFSS (Mar 12, 2015)

Interesting that one can still order a ticket way past 4/1 on the HS.


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## Ryan (Mar 12, 2015)

That's disappointing, unless Amtrak knows something that we don't.


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## VentureForth (Mar 12, 2015)

AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > I am sorry to hear of the Hoosier State's discontinuance but all is not lost. The Cardinal still runs from Indianapolis to Chicago three days per week.
> ...


These trains aren't for daily commuters. The closest station to Chicago on the Hoosier State/Cardinal is Dyer, IN. If you are commuting, you're going to pay $24/day round trip for a job in Chicago that you can only be at for 7 hours?

Maybe it's critical for those living in Lafayette who work in the tiny town of Rensselaer.

Relying on the Cardinal for your JOB is pretty irresponsible considering its ontime performance.

Don't mean to come across as snarky, but let's keep it real.

I don't disagree with daily service, but it's for long distance passengers, not commuters. But I don't think it was the Hoosier State that was in the way. The Cardinal could have absorbed that decades ago. As others have mentioned, I still think that the blockade to daily service is Buckingham Branch.


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## jis (Mar 12, 2015)

I suspect Amtrak expects that a solution would be worked out.

BTW, isn't there this 6 month or whatever notice thing? Or does that not apply because the Cardinal will continue to serve the route?


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## Metra Electric Guest (Mar 12, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> These trains aren't for daily commuters. The closest station to Chicago on the Hoosier State/Cardinal is Dyer, IN. If you are commuting, you're going to pay $24/day round trip for a job in Chicago that you can only be at for 7 hours?


If you live in Dyer and work in the loop and want to commute by train you hop in your car and drive over to Illinois and take Metra Electric. My coworker does just that and says the parking lot is usually between 25%/ one third Indiana cars. They chose Metra over NICTD for cheaper fares and more frequent trains (and for many, it's quicker to get to the stations in Illinois than say Hammond).

And this is totally irrelevant to this thread. I'm still appalled that Indiana is as anti-rail as it is. Unfortunately, as any reasonable Chicago-East Coast connections need to go through Indiana, I can't picture a round the lake via Sault Ste. Marie and Canuckia to New York connection being realistic (though it might be very scenic).


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## jis (Mar 12, 2015)

As long as it is a National Network train say - NYP to CHI or STL, it does not matter whether Indiana is pro-rail or anti-rail. What matters more is getting reasonably priced trackage on CSX and NS.

It on;y n the case of state funded PRIIA 209 trains that it matters how Indiana feels about funding such or not.


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## John Bredin (Mar 12, 2015)

jis said:


> I suspect Amtrak expects that a solution would be worked out.


Or would run a Thruway bus in lieu of the Hoosier State and honor post-4/1 reservations on that bus. Amtrak runs a fair number of Thruway routes without state support, IIRC, including as feeders to the LD trains.


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## jis (Mar 12, 2015)

Typically Thruway buses require an attached train leg in the itinerary, but there could be exceptions I suppose.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 12, 2015)

jis said:


> Typically Thruway buses require an attached train leg in the itinerary, but there could be exceptions I suppose.


Seattle to Vancouver BC is one such exception where a bus can be booked without an associated train segment.


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## jis (Mar 12, 2015)

Looks like there are 4 Thruway buses from CHI to IND (all must book with train) and the bus is faster than the train.


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## MrFSS (Mar 12, 2015)

_*U.S. Sen. Dan Coats wants to save the Hoosier State — the passenger rail route, that is.*_

_*The Indiana republican sent a letter to the Federal Railroad Administration asking it to reconsider a position that the state says dooms the Amtrak line.*_



_*The Indiana Department of Transportation announced last week that the Indianapolis-to-Chicago four-days-a-week train will stop running April 1. The agency says the federal rail agency’s insistence that the state act as the rail carrier under a new proposed partnership is too expensive to keep the train alive.*_

*LINK*


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## afigg (Mar 13, 2015)

Fred Frailey of Trains Magazine has a column on what the FRA is up and the dispute which provides more information: FRA must hate passenger trains (available to all). What the heck is going on at the FRA? Is this something that was in the planning stages while Szabo was running the agency or is something that the upper level staff are now moving ahead on because they have an acting head of the agency who has no background in railroad operations at all?

Excerpts:



> I have gotten from three state government sources some clarification of what the real issue is between the Federal Railroad Administration and the Indiana Department of Transportation, and it is a bit bizarre. By the end of this year, the FRA expects to have rules in effect that require all state governments that subsidize passenger train services to register with the agency as railroads. FRA’s intentions were revealed to state transportation officials on February 17 at a meeting in Washington, D.C.
> 
> This strange and abrupt course of action is almost certain to ignite a firestorm of protests. Already, Indiana, the first state to be confronted by this requirement, has said it will drop support for the Hoosier State and that the Chicago-to-Indianapolis train will cease to exist at the end of this month (see "The Great Hoosier State Fiasco"). Besides Indiana, seven other states that underwrite Amtrak trains are led by Republican governors, few of whom are likely to welcome this intrusion of the federal government into the affairs of their administrations.
> 
> ...


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## MrFSS (Mar 13, 2015)

30 day extension given.

http://www.jconline.com/story/news/2015/03/13/hoosier-state-line-gets-day-extension/70283594/


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## Ryan (Mar 13, 2015)

Excellent - hopefully the FRA is made to see the light.


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## afigg (Mar 13, 2015)

MrFSS said:


> 30 day extension given.
> 
> http://www.jconline.com/story/news/2015/03/13/hoosier-state-line-gets-day-extension/70283594/


The Hoosier State may indeed survive and keep running. If this eventually leads to a daily HS on a separate schedule from the Cardinal, the drama and risk taken will be worth it. Because the next step after that would be annual capital investment funding from the state to incrementally improve the service.

Relevant excerpt from the news article:



> Officially, INDOT said the announcement Friday followed a phone call between officials from the Federal Railroad Administration and INDOT Commissioner Karl Browning. During the conversation, Sarah Feinberg, acting commissioner for the railroad administration, indicated the federal agency would reconsider the position that would force the end of the Hoosier State passenger line, according to INDOT.


Certainly appears that the backlash and protests from the states and the Senators & Congressman is causing the FRA to back down. Would not be surprised if in a few weeks or months, the FRA quietly announces on a late Friday afternoon that they are dropping their plan entirely for extensive new regulations for the state DOTs.


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## neroden (Mar 14, 2015)

afigg said:


> Fred Frailey of Trains Magazine has a column on what the FRA is up and the dispute which provides more information: FRA must hate passenger trains (available to all). What the heck is going on at the FRA? Is this something that was in the planning stages while Szabo was running the agency or is something that the upper level staff are now moving ahead on because they have an acting head of the agency who has no background in railroad operations at all?
> 
> Excerpts:
> 
> ...


North Carolina will probably sue. California will probably sue. Illinois will probably sue. New York will probably sue. Maine will probably sue. (Not to mention Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Michigan, Oregon, Washington, Oklahoma, Texas, Missouri, Pennsylvania, and probably Maryland and Florida as well.) They're going to get stomped on by Congressmen from all over and Amtrak is going to file a complaint as well. What is Nissenbaum thinking? Was he tricked into this by crooked execs at the Class Is?
Or is the FRA simply living up to the nickname I gave it a few years back, the Federal Prevention of Railroad Service Administration? Frankly, it should be abolished.


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## jis (Mar 14, 2015)

FRA first needs to explain what exactly is wrong with the status quo, and what problems has it led to that the new proposed policy is trying to address. Their current explanation is pretty wishy-washy to say the least. Otherwise it seems like a bunch of bureaucrats trying to justify their presence by doing something .... anything.


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## Who's Your Fate (Mar 14, 2015)

Szabo hate passenger trains???

Amtrak loves Szabo! http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-83020927/

...or at least Boardman does.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 14, 2015)

Who's Your Fate said:


> Szabo hate passenger trains???
> 
> Amtrak loves Szabo! http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-83020927/
> 
> ...or at least Boardman does.


Szabo is no longer with the Federal Railroad Administration.


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## Whoose Your Scape (Mar 14, 2015)

Gee whiz. This site needs to lighten up. Who said Szabo is still with the FRA? Why are posters here so often eager to assume other posters are ignorant when compared to themselves?

My comment was in reference to a post quoted two posts before my earlier one which wondered if the mess in Indiana was in the works when Szabo was still at the FRA.


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## NorthShore (Mar 14, 2015)

Gee, if they could get some Szbaro pizza and pasta on this route, it could really make a difference.


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## me_little_me (Mar 15, 2015)

NorthShore said:


> Gee, if they could get some Szbaro pizza and pasta on this route, it could really make a difference.


But not for the better. and Sbarro Pizza is worse.


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## CHamilton (Mar 17, 2015)

MrFSS said:


> _*U.S. Sen. Dan Coats wants to save the Hoosier State — the passenger rail route, that is.*_
> 
> _*The Indiana republican sent a letter to the Federal Railroad Administration asking it to reconsider a position that the state says dooms the Amtrak line.*_
> 
> ...


This story is also discussed here: http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/235834-gop-senator-wants-to-save-indiana-amtrak-route


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## afigg (Mar 17, 2015)

Fred Frailey of Trains Magazine posted a column on Sunday reporting that the FRA and INDOT may have reached an understanding, so the prospects of the HS surviving past the end of April are getting better: Hoosier State darts and laurels. The FRA clearly overreached on their attempt at new regulations.

Excerpt:



> Indiana and the Federal Railroad Administration are reported to have smoked the peace pipe, as to the Chicago-Indianapolis Hoosier State. At issue was whether Indiana had to become a railroad under FRA’s supervision to insure that safety rules are obeyed. As I understand it, the two parties agreed to draw up a memorandum of understanding, thus ending a standoff that threatened to end the life of this state-supported passenger train.
> 
> The memorandum will spell out each party’s role in safely operating this train. FRA wants a impermeable chain of responsibility for its rail-safety regulations — someone to ultimately answer for all the bits and pieces of a train’s operation. A lofty goal, to be sure, but what a way to go about it . . . .


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## neroden (Mar 18, 2015)

I am glad that Indiana DOT's decision to make publicity out of the FRA's bizarre behavior has resulted in FRA backing down.

(Kids, this is why sometimes you need to escalate conflicts and insult people and organizations in public. It seems clear that the worst would have happened if Indiana hadn't sicced newspapers and Congressmen on the FRA.)


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## MrFSS (Mar 18, 2015)

From another forum. the rest of Mr Frailey's comments:

So now that a truce has been declared and participants have holstered their pistols, it’s time to issue darts and laurels to people and institutions.

DART to the Federal Railroad Administration. No no, guys, this isn’t the way to retain credibility. First of all, you acted like bullies. Second, you jumped first of all on the only two states that have acted to run part of their passenger services outside of Amtrak auspices, North Carolina and now Indiana, creating the impression you are in cahoots with Amtrak. And third, you unilaterally tried to impose an expensive, unwieldy (and possibly unconstitutional) process in order to increase your comfort level. Tsk tsk.

LAUREL to Indiana transportation commissioner Karl Browning. His goal all along has been to try to offer Hoosiers a better transportation product at lower cost. To his credit, INDOT has been almost totally transparent in pursuing this goal, documenting the entire process on its website. A lot of other states, unhappy at the high cost of their subsidies for shorter-distance passenger trains and at the total lack of transparency in Amtrak’s accounting practices, are watching how this attempt to go it alone plays out. Browning comes out of this looking like a strong leader and a straight shooter.

DART to acting FRA administrator Sarah Feinberg. I know her only by reputation, and it is that she is a smart, savvy, politically attuned person. So how on earth could she have been so tone deaf to the hue and cry that would erupt from 19 states when her agency wrote a rule requiring these states to take on the trappings of railroads? I mean, she is new to railroads but at least she’s supposed to have sharp political antennae. Those smarts deserted her on this.

DARTS to the other 17 affected state departments of transportation, who fiddled while North Carolina was being told to become a railroad in 2008 and then Indiana in 2015. You folks will be next. So where were you this time? Hiding behind your fear of FRA, perhaps. The time to push back on the Federal Railroad Administration’s ill-chosen decision is now, and the more publicly, the better.

LAUREL to Ed Ellis, president of Iowa Pacific Holdings, for sticking it out as the middle man. His short line company is to manage the Hoosier State and supply its equipment (Amtrak would continue to furnish engineers and conductors). I would not want to be in his shoes. Going forward, FRA people will arrive to inspect IPH passenger cars wearing white gloves and dark intentions, one suspects.—Fred W. Frailey


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## sitzplatz17 (Mar 18, 2015)

I am so confused. haha

But I guess this is good news?

We'll have to see how this plays out as I'm sure other states are looking very closely at this.


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## jis (Mar 18, 2015)

I know Florida State will throw a hissy-fit of epic proportions if they were told that they have to start an elaborate railroad department just to fund the operations of SunRail and TriRail. There is absolutely zero logic other than extension of fiefdom in the latest forays of the FRA.

I am sure none of the state that are current operators of their own Commuter rail operations would take kindly to such a suggestion either. I cannot see how FRA can justify such a position just for PRIIA 209 routes and to the exclusion of all other existing state operated passenger operations. PRIIA 209 is relatively small potatoes when compared to the overall size of state funded mainline passenger rail operations.


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## jis (Mar 21, 2015)

According to posts on trainorders an inspection of the Iowa Pacific consist proposed for use on Hoosier State took place on the 19th. FRA and Amtrak participated. FRA gave feedback. Amtrak did not. Oddly enough:



> The Amtrak representatives told us they were unable to provide feedback. Hopefully they will provide INDOT with a report. Amtrak did inform us that they have inspection standards for this rolling stock that are different from private car standards. INDOT has asked Amtrak to provide the standards, but it appears that whatever standards Amtrak inspected to on Thursday have not yet been provided to the State, let alone the results of the inspection.


So Amtrak has different "standards" which they cannot provide documentation of? Really? Very curious! Do they really have such a documented standard, or are they busy winging it? You know I want to be on Amtrak's side, but they do make it awfully difficult at times. :help:


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 21, 2015)

I'll be honest I'm on the side of Iowa Pacific. I'm curious to how this experiment would work with a private company doing this run. And on a bonus for railfans. IP has a nice paint scheme and E units. Welcome to the 1950s passenger train reborn.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 21, 2015)

Hey, it's Amtrak where the culture, from 60 Mass to aboard the trains, is to wing it and make up rules and policies as you go!

I too think IP deserves a shot @ running the Hoosier State, anything is better than the current set up!

They've done pretty well with their charter trips and Amtrak should know they can deliver on what is promised and required!

"Back to the Future" seems to be the coming thing!


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## CHamilton (Apr 6, 2015)

Hoosier State rail can continue under state, fed agreement


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## Notelvis (Apr 6, 2015)

I have to admit that if Iowa Pacific does become the equipment provider for the Hoosier State, I'm coming up to ride the dome car!


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## reppin_the_847 (Apr 6, 2015)

Good thing the controversial religious freedom law in Indiana has nothing to do with its reluctance to foot the bill for Amtrak heheh. Indiana has been ALL over the news lately. Personally, I cross northern Indiana VERY frequently to get between Illinois & Michigan lol.


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## MrFSS (Apr 14, 2015)

*More Information*


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## Anderson (Apr 14, 2015)

I'd be interested to see the intermediate steps IP is looking at to get to those 12 trains per day. I know that Ed Ellis is a major proponent of high-frequency corridors as being viable in a way that once/twice-daily trains aren't...but I know (and I suspect that he knows) that this is going to take a few stages.

With that said...$500m for 12x daily service is a pretty cheap price if it actually comes to pass.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 14, 2015)

In order to run 12 trains a day, Indiana will have to purchase the route from CSX, and spend tons of money to double track it, signalize it and increase speeds. I don't see Indiana's tight-fisted legislature opening the purse strings for this. Nothing is going to happen on this route until trip times are equal to highway times. The dome lounge is a nice touch, but is not going to change anything.


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## Palmetto (Apr 14, 2015)

Good luck trying to get even the one train through they myriad dispatching maze that's south of Chicago Union Station. I wish IP all the best, but it's going to take a miracle, I think, to overcome the routing problems on the South Side of Chicago.


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## WoodyinNYC (Apr 14, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> In order to run 12 trains a day, Indiana will have to purchase the route from CSX, and spend tons of money to double track it, signalize it and increase speeds. ...


Why would Indiana have to purchase the route?

The St Louis-Chicago 110-mph upgrades for _Lincoln Service _are being done on a route owned by Union Pacific. Did I miss a whispered mention that the UP is going to go away, or that Illinois will try to buy the line? I don't think so. Doubletracking will be needed there in the next round of investment, but UP will own the underlying land.

Even the South of the Lake (SOTL) project to speed trains Detroit-Chicago thru Indiana will probably be a dedicated 110-mph passenger only track. The route has not been selected yet, but the options are to build all or almost all on existing freight R-O-W, from Chicago to Porter. There the Michigan trains peel off onto the existing 110-mph stretch toward Kalamazoo and Detroit. The Norfolk Southern main line, with the _Lake Shore_ and _Capitol Ltd._, heads toward Cleveland and points east. So somebody's gonna spend about $1.5 Billion on SOTL, but the freights are gonna own the land.

South of the Lake will also speed trains from Union Station to a place in Indiana, but before Porter, where the _Cardinal_ and _Hoosier State_ will one day make a right turn down to Indianapolis. This project could cut 20 or 30 minutes off the trip time of the _Hoosier State_ and the _Cardinal_.

Meanwhile, the State of Indiana paid consultants for a study of the _Hoosier State_.

http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_CostBenefitAnalysis_2013.pdf

It's a lousy study that totally ignored any impact on the _Cardinal_, LOL, and ignored any dollar value of lives lost to highway traffic that could be avoided with better train service, etc. But it did identify about $200 million worth of upgrades within Indiana alone that would chop about 30 minutes off the run time. With two long new sidings just north of Indianapolis and other stuff, the majority of those upgrades should work well with a new connection (SOTL) into Chicago.

Of course, the study indicated that adding one or two more frequencies on a faster trip would double or triple ridership. Currently the _Cardinal/Hoosier State _leaves Indianapolis at 6 a.m. and arrives Chicago at 10 a.m., a 5-hour trip with damn early wake-up call and a tardy, half-day-lost arrival in the Windy City. Getting to Union Station at 9:30 a.m. would be better, arriving 9 a.m. would be much better. And for us sleepyheads, another departure at 7:30 and another at 10 a.m. would be great.

I'm kind of with the Indiana politicians who don't want to sink $200 million into upgrades to get only one or two more trains each way. Certainly not without a lot of those hated federal dollars. LOL.

But if Iowa Pacific gets ready to run 12 trains a day, then an investment of $200 to $500 million by somebody could be a good deal. For Amtrak, for a daily _Cardinal_, and for connecting trains at the Chicago hub, shaving an hour or so off Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Chicago (and sharing some costs as well) would be sweet broadus.

Now we only need a federal program to invest a few Billion into various routes and projects like SOTL and upgrading the _Hoosier State _route, and then watch ridership soar.


----------



## ruck (Apr 14, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> ... I don't see Indiana's tight-fisted legislature opening the purse strings for this...



I live in Indiana and I certainly understand and have experienced this sentiment. Still in two years we've gone from 0 state dollars to 3 million state dollars being contributed. Sure that's relatively small, but for Indiana that was a huge movement. Obviously it took a crazy amount of work with the cities funding the train and what not, but the result was state funding. In the future the conversation will hopefully be not whether to fund (though I'm sure that will come up) but how much, and if IP does a good job and gets more people riding, well that's potentially more people in favor of supporting/increasing support for the train.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> In order to run 12 trains a day, Indiana will have to purchase the route from CSX, and spend tons of money to double track it, signalize it and increase speeds. I don't see Indiana's tight-fisted legislature opening the purse strings for this. Nothing is going to happen on this route until trip times are equal to highway times. The dome lounge is a nice touch, but is not going to change anything.


Even New York has not purchased the route from CSX for running way more than 12 trains a day between New york and Albany. It is only recently that they leased it. Similarly California has not purchased the Capitol Corridor from UP. So why would Indiana have to purchase the route from CSX?


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## Anderson (Apr 14, 2015)

Just as a question, but assuming IP got a long-term agreement with Indiana on service, would they be eligible for RRIF funding for something like this?


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## jis (Apr 14, 2015)

Apparently AAF is, so why not IP?


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 14, 2015)

WoodyinNYC said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > In order to run 12 trains a day, Indiana will have to purchase the route from CSX, and spend tons of money to double track it, signalize it and increase speeds. ...
> ...


Where's this "right turn" that passenger trains would take off the South the Lake line to Indianapolis? Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District (NICTD) has plans to reopen the former Monon Route from Dyer north through Munster to Hammond and a connection to the current South Shore, so I guess Amtrak could use that, but that has nothing to do with the South of the Lake route.

I don't think Iowa Pacific has $200 to $500 million dollars to implement those 12 trains a day. That will have to come from Indiana or the feds.

It's amazing Indiana is even coming up with $3 million for the Hoosier State. That's a long way from $200 to $500 million.

Illinois should have bought the Chicago-St. Louis line when it was owned by the Chicago, Missouri and Western. It could have been picked up for a song. Now UP has a big intermodal yard south of Joliet and is running more freight than ever on the former GM&O. Right now, the agreement with UP calls for only three trains in each direction to run at 110 mph. After taking all of Illinois' money, UP might not want to expand passenger service to say, hourly operation, because its intermodals will be delayed.

But I'm sure CSX will be happy to cooperate with expanded Chi-Indy service, just like they do everywhere else. (That's sarcasm, folks)


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## Steve4031 (Apr 16, 2015)

I've been following threads on this situation in several forums. There has been a lot of information and speculation posted. I am eagerly anticipating riding Iowa Pacific's equipment on this route. Do I understand correctly that this is to start May 1, 2015? If not, is there an actual start date?

Thank you.


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## Palmetto (Apr 16, 2015)

Steve4031 said:


> I've been following threads on this situation in several forums. There has been a lot of information and speculation posted. I am eagerly anticipating riding Iowa Pacific's equipment on this route. Do I understand correctly that this is to start May 1, 2015? If not, is there an actual start date?
> 
> Thank you.


I don't know about May 1. IP has just posted 4 jobs in connection with this service.


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## jis (Apr 16, 2015)

I have it from an extremely reliable source that an announcement will be made of the exact date very shortly. So hold on for a bit.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 16, 2015)

I am.


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## johnpage (Apr 24, 2015)

Karl Browning, the Indiana Department of Transportation Commissioner who has been handling the transition of the _Hooiser State_ abruptly resigned on Wednesday, April 22nd.

Corridor Capital, which was named as the original preferred vendor for the transition has posted a statement on its website along with a link to the _Indianapolis Star_ newspaper story about Commissioner Browning's departure.

http://www.ccrail.com


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## Palmetto (Apr 25, 2015)

From what I've been reading, Karl Browning was not very much in favor of continuing the operation at all between CHI and IND. Perhaps he was disenchanted that the rail plan has been advancing, and left with a bad taste in his mouth as a result. Just a guess.


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## twa904 (Apr 25, 2015)

What happens with the Hoosier State equipment on the days it does not operate?


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 26, 2015)

twa904 said:


> What happens with the Hoosier State equipment on the days it does not operate?


Under Amtrak, the two Horizon coaches were just stuck on the back of the Cardinal. I don't know what Iowa Pacific plans to do.


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## MrFSS (Apr 27, 2015)

Things moving along.

_*Iowa Pacific equipment to be used for new Hoosier State service is moving from Chicago area to Wisconsin and Southern paint shop at Horicon, WI*_


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## grover5995 (Apr 29, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...





MikefromCrete said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


Future plans call for Hoosier State to head east on former Pennsylvania line through Valparaiso and turn south at Wanatah. The first 30 miles are inactive but can easily be restored. This route would serve an additional college town and re-join the current route at Monon. There is also a privately-funded passenger route proposed between Chicago and Columbus, OH that would use the former Broadway Limited route for much of the way.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 29, 2015)

Reactivating 30 miles of railroad! A privately funded route between Chicago and Columbus! I'll believe those when I see them.


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## ruck (Jun 15, 2015)

A link to a flickr stream of photos taken from a test run of the Hoosier State was posted over on TO

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mastadon4935/

looks nice.


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## Caesar La Rock (Jun 17, 2015)

ruck said:


> A link to a flickr stream of photos taken from a test run of the Hoosier State was posted over on TO
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/mastadon4935/
> 
> looks nice.


Wow. the train looks sharp in that paint scheme.


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## MrFSS (Jun 27, 2015)

Word on the Indiana Rail Forum is that the Iowa Pacific train "followed" the HS Amtrak train from Chicago to Indy last night. But, they say it had HEP problems and ended up being 2-3 hours late getting to Indy. not a good start!


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## MrFSS (Jun 29, 2015)

A friend on the Indiana Rail Forum gave me permission to share these he took of the south and northbound test trains. Southbound ran 20 minutes behind the Amtrak and they piggy backed on the way back north for some reason.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 29, 2015)

Wow, the "Rainbow Train" is back!

Wonder if Michael J. Fox was aboard?☺


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## Rob Creighton (Jun 29, 2015)

This is pretty neat. Made me wish I still lived in Lafayette... I'd grab some pix and take a ride. Currently trainless in Lubbock, TX!


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## west point (Jun 29, 2015)

That is one ugly Heritage baggage.


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## CCC1007 (Jun 29, 2015)

Looks like an exhibit train car


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## PaulM (Jun 29, 2015)

west point said:


> That is one ugly Heritage baggage.


I'm sure the Hoosier doesn't have baggage service. So it must be deadheading to the scrap yard.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 29, 2015)

west point said:


> That is one ugly Heritage baggage.


The Hoosier state train is also known as a hospital train ferrying rolling stock to and from beech grove so the baggage car is going to beech grove where it will most likely be stored dead or scrapped.

Looks like Amtrak will still be Running the Hoosier state after july 1st

http://www.jconline.com/story/money/business/2015/06/29/hoosier-state-will-run-long-term-agreement-yet/29480563/


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## Anderson (Jun 30, 2015)

Any idea when the actual shift of service is going to happen? I know July 1 slipped, but are we looking at a slip of a week or two or likely something more?


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## Ryan (Jun 30, 2015)

PaulM said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > That is one ugly Heritage baggage.
> ...


The Phase III paint says "exhibit train car".


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## cirdan (Jun 30, 2015)

So is the new Hoosier State going to have a dome car?


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## jis (Jun 30, 2015)

Yes.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jun 30, 2015)

*LOUISVILLE & INDIANA RAILROAD AND CSX CLOSE ON JOINT INFRASTRUCTURE UPGRADE PROJECT BETWEEN INDIANAPOLIS AND LOUISVILLE*

_*$100 million infrastructure investment ...*_

CHICAGO, Ill. and JACKSONVILLE, Fla. – June 19, 2015 – Louisville & Indiana Railroad (L&I), a subsidiary of Anacostia Rail Holdings, and CSX today announced the completion of an agreement that grants CSX a permanent easement to operate over the L&I’s 106-mile rail corridor between Indianapolis and Louisville.

In addition to CSX’s $10 million easement purchase, the two companies finalized an operating agreement that provides for an additional $90 million in infrastructure upgrades over the next several years to improve the track structure and right of way along this key freight route. ...

“CSX’s investment of approximately $100 million will provide enhanced rail access for the Port of Indiana-Jeffersonville, *increase capacity and efficiency* along this corridor ...,” said Oscar Munoz, president and chief operating officer, CSX Corporation. “These critical infrastructure improvements include the installation of *new rail, upgrades to the rail bed structure and bridge improvements *to enhance safety and service ...”

Over the next several months, *20 miles of new rail will be installed* along the southern portion of the line. … (emphasis added)

“Since 2011, both L&I and CSX have coordinated with state and local officials to discuss the upgrade of the line ...” said John Goldman, president, Louisville & Indiana Railroad. ...

About L&I
The Louisville & Indiana Railroad is based in Jeffersonville, Indiana and has approximately 40 employees. L&I acquired its 106-mile line from Consolidated Rail Corporation and began operations in 1994. The railroad operates a former main line of the Pennsylvania Railroad.

---------------------

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but please excuse. (Corporate press release, so reprint constitutes fair use.)

Not trying to make CSX regret the decision, LOL, but seems this development could bring forward passenger service on this route from, say, 15 years out to only 10 years out. Any Louisville-Indy trains would become part of the service to Chicago, and there feed traffic to the other Midwest hub trains and to Amtrak's LD trains. 

This upgrade will also bring forward a revived route Chicago-Miami, from, say, 20 years out to 15 years out.

If I'm wrong, I'll probably be dead by then, so I can now fearlessly make these forecasts.  :giggle:


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 6, 2015)

The 27th is what I just heard for the start date. My source I can't name but is with IP.


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## ruck (Jul 8, 2015)

Lafayette's NPR affiliate posted this

http://wbaa.org/post/hoosier-state-line-clock-running-even-if-new-trains-arent

sounds like getting three different entities Amtrak, Iowa Pacific, INDOT to play nice with each other is the issue.



> State Representative Randy Truitt (R-West Lafayette), who lobbied successfully for more state funding for the train, says a rocky relationship between Amtrak and Iowa Pacific isn’t helping the timetable.
> 
> “You’ve got Amtrak involved, that’s not really part of the operating side of the equation. You’ve got Iowa Pacific that is involved. I think there’s a little bit of bad blood potentially in there from that standpoint, even though they didn’t participate in the bidding process when it first started,” Truitt says.
> 
> ...





> INDOT spokesman Will Wingfield says it’s minor details.
> 
> “What remains are very somewhat wonky things like certifying the potable water source that will be used on the train,” Wingfield says.


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## Anderson (Jul 8, 2015)

I'd be a _lot_ more sympathetic to Boardman's point (I'm not wholly unsympathetic to it, to be fair) if Amtrak had even put in a fig leaf bid (though I'm trying to recall if they were actively barred from doing so; even still, they could probably have issued what I can only call a "non-bid bid"). The feeling I have, frankly, is that Amtrak didn't even try until it became clear that something _might actually happen_ (on the heels of a few decades of not-good relations with Indiana which included Amtrak not really wanting to work with Indiana on service improvements...I think the Business Class experiment from a few months back was something Indiana wanted a decade or two ago) and that they might actually lose the contract.

Of course, you know what else this reminds me of? The whole affair when Amtrak lost the VRE contract and tried to throw VRE out of Union Station in DC in response.


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## PaulM (Jul 8, 2015)

> But Joe also brought up the fact that he said ‘Hey guys, remember – we’re basically asked to subsidize our competitors on our rails.’”


I'm not following this; and not just because Amtrak obviously doesn't own the rails in Indiana. How and why would Amtrak be subsidizing who? If Indiana is low balling IP and IP, in turn, is low balling Amtrak, why does Amtrak have to agree?


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## Ryan (Jul 8, 2015)

Amtrak is operating the trains for IP. They may be able to tell Amtrak to get lost and hire/qualify their own crews, but that would take even more time.


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## jis (Jul 8, 2015)

Ryan said:


> Amtrak is operating the trains for IP. They may be able to tell Amtrak to get lost and hire/qualify their own crews, but that would take even more time.


Or they could hire Bombardier or Keolis or whoever else to run the trains for them. It is not like Amtrak has monopoly on running trains. The added complication would be getting agreement from CSX for such a move.

I suppose Joe is talking about Union Station, which is the only thing that is "our rails" for him in this whole saga. But Amtrak's own credibility of accounting for anything is so low, that any claim of Amtrak subsidizing someone needs to be taken with a large dollop of salt IMHO.


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## Ryan (Jul 8, 2015)

Well yes, I didn't necessarily mean IP had to hire directly, but any non-Amtrak crew would have to be qualified, which would be time consuming (unless they got CSX to do it, which is highly unlikely).


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## keelhauled (Jul 31, 2015)

Supposedly IP equipment will enter service with the Sunday August 2 northbound train, contingent on a CSX switch being replaced. I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but in any case Amtrak's contract expired on the 31st.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/07/iowa-pacific-launches-hoosier-state-on-aug-2


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## Eric S (Jul 31, 2015)

Just to add on, the contract expires today (July 31) and the next day the Hoosier State is scheduled to operate is Sunday (August 2) as the Cardinal operates on Saturday (August 1).


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## Paulus (Jul 31, 2015)

Starts Sunday pending completion of a track to Iowa Pacific maintenance facility


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## CHamilton (Jul 31, 2015)

Amtrak, state agreement on rail service pending


> Indiana is likely within hours of completing a deal to continue the Hoosier State passenger rail service with Amtrak and private contractor Iowa Pacific Holdings.
> All that stands in the way is completion of a 1,200 foot segment of rail between CSX tracks and Iowa Pacific Holdings’ maintenance facility in Beech Grove, Indiana, Department of Transportation spokesman Will Wingfield said.
> 
> “We have separate contracts signed with Amtrak and Iowa Pacific Holdings contingent on completion of that track,” he said.
> ...


----------



## ruck (Aug 2, 2015)

Taken this morning north of Lafayette.


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## Agent (Aug 2, 2015)

Found a couple videos of the first run already. No location listed for the first one.


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## neroden (Aug 2, 2015)

Well, that's a few single-level coaches to return to the pool for the NEC...


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 2, 2015)

Nice looking little train! Look forward to a trip report from a rider including how the Cafe is?

Next time I'm in Indy,a very underated City, think I'll give it a try!


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## Train2104 (Aug 2, 2015)

This is only an interim step in the transition, right? I heard IP plans on selling its own tickets?


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## Lonestar648 (Aug 2, 2015)

I remember riding several times in the sleeper on the Hoosier when it went to Louisville from Chicago. Just a coach and sleeper from Indianapolis south, not even a café car. The SCA had boxed dinners and breakfasts. Travel over the route was very, very slow.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 2, 2015)

neroden said:


> Well, that's a few single-level coaches to return to the pool for the NEC...


You mean the two Horizon coaches used by the Hoosier State? Not much use on the NEC.


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## CHamilton (Aug 2, 2015)

Deal preserves Indy-to-Chicago passenger rail


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## Railroad Bill (Aug 2, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Nice looking little train! Look forward to a trip report from a rider including how the Cafe is?
> 
> Next time I'm in Indy,a very underated City, think I'll give it a try!


Yes, Indianapolis has some interesting things to see with a fine set of art museums, parks and Indy 500 track and museum. But that ride from Indy to Chicago is a long one due to track conditions and freight traffic up north. Still, would like to ride in the new dome car for a nice day trip to CHI and back.


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## Anderson (Aug 3, 2015)

*fumes*
And _of course_ the first run gets shoved together while I'm stuck on a camping trip. Go figure.

Well, looks like I have someplace to be sooner rather than later...


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## neroden (Aug 3, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Well, that's a few single-level coaches to return to the pool for the NEC...
> ...


They'll end up on the NEC, mark my words (bwa ha ha...) though maybe not this year. There are a whole bunch more Horizons coming free in 2017-2018. There's nowhere else to put them, and they're too new for Amtrak to scrap them.


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## CHamilton (Aug 3, 2015)

It's being reported on FB that tonight's southbound Hoosier State (8/3) train 850, the 2nd southbound departure scheduled to use Iowa Pacific equipment, is being bustituted. Apparently Amtrak didn't deadhead the equipment on 51 as planned. The guess is that the Iowa Pacific equipment will run to CHI as 851 tomorrow morning, then back on Wednesday evening, then make the round-trips Friday and Sunday. They'll just need the deadhead lift from Amtrak northward once a week on Monday morning to make it work.


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 3, 2015)

neroden said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > neroden said:
> ...


I expect to see about 10 of them, counting protect cars, used on the _Sunset Shuttle_ San Antonio-Houston-New Orleans, after the S_unset/Eagle_ goes daily. (That would be a great route for corridor service, using more Horizons. After the South Rises Again or sometime doowahdiddy?)

Wouldn't another batch go on the _Heartland Flyer?_ To liberate a handful of Superliners for better use out West.

Putting rehabbed Horizons on the _Crescent_ might work O.K. That would free up better (or more compatible) equipment to take the _Cardinal_ daily and to restore/extend the _Silver Palm/Palmetto_. I'd want to keep the _Star, Meteor, _and _Palmetto _as similar as possible, to keep things clear for the customers. But the _Crescent _already has a very different route from the others and a stand-alone identity.

Then there's the NEC. LOL.

But yeah, the Horizons are far too good to be scrapped, especially if Amtrak plans to ask Congress for funding to buy any new cars later in this decade or even in the next.


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## CHamilton (Aug 3, 2015)

From the Amtrak group on Facebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNiZrARMBIQ&feature=youtu.be


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## neroden (Aug 4, 2015)

WoodyinNYC said:


> I expect to see about 10 of them, counting protect cars, used on the _Sunset Shuttle_ San Antonio-Houston-New Orleans, after the S_unset/Eagle_ goes daily. (That would be a great route for corridor service, using more Horizons. After the South Rises Again or sometime doowahdiddy?)
> 
> Wouldn't another batch go on the _Heartland Flyer?_ To liberate a handful of Superliners for better use out West.


I expect that ADA considerations will keep single-level cars away from the all-low-platform routes which currently use bilevel cars, like the Sunset Shuttle; it would be considered a regression in service. They let California do it but it was a temporary action and they're already getting bilevels to replace them. I expect that Oklahama would consider such a change a downgrade as well, and would refuse to allow it on the Heartland Flyer.



> Putting rehabbed Horizons on the _Crescent_ might work O.K. That would free up better (or more compatible) equipment to take the _Cardinal_ daily and to restore/extend the _Silver Palm/Palmetto_.


You might see them put on the longer-distance trains which run onto the NEC. They'll still be on the NEC. Bwa ha ha...


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## jis (Aug 4, 2015)

I think there will be reluctance to put the Horizons on NEC Regional trains until they get retrofitted with remotely operable doors.

Of course using them on LD and MD trains that travel on the NEC is an entirely different matter, since they often don't open all doors anyway.


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## CHamilton (Aug 4, 2015)

INDOT Signs New Deal with Amtrak, Iowa Pacific to Keep Passenger Rail Running, Offers New Amenities on Board


----------



## WoodyinNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

neroden said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> > I expect to see about 10 of them, counting protect cars, used on the _Sunset Shuttle_ San Antonio-Houston-New Orleans, after the S_unset/Eagle_ goes daily. (That would be a great route for corridor service, using more Horizons. After the South Rises Again or sometime doowahdiddy?)
> ...


On the _Sunset Shuttle_, I'd argue that 7-day service with single-level cars was better than 3-day service. But not my area of interest.

---------------------------------------

Switching the _Capitol Ltd_ and/or the _City of New Orleans_ to single-level cars, to move their equipment while the West waits and waits for an order for new bi-level stuff, is a notion often tossed around here. But your statement re ADA implies that might not be possible due to ADA requirements.

Sorry I got off-topic and can't seem to stop. Apologies to the _Hoosier State_.


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## neroden (Aug 4, 2015)

Well, there's no ADA *requirements* per se which would prevent running single-levels on the Sunset route.

What there is is a *storm of paperwork* for any station with less-than-level boarding. First you have to prove (a) the freight operator will not allow high-level platforms, then that (b) train-borne lifts are less suitable than station-borne lifts, and you have to get individual approval for each station...

Most of the stations which the Capitol Limited stops at already host single-level trains and will continue to do so (the Lake Shore Limited, or the Pennsylvanian at Philadelphia, or numerous trains at DC); the other six stations, three shared with MARC, aren't that big a deal. So the paperwork is already being done for those stations. For the Sunset or Heartland Flyer, it would probably be enough of a pain to do the paperwork that it would cause years of delay.


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## MrFSS (Aug 4, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> INDOT Signs New Deal with Amtrak, Iowa Pacific to Keep Passenger Rail Running, Offers New Amenities on Board


Bringing this back on topic, I "heard" elsewhere, but saw no proof, that IP has already had a bustitution for some reason. I'll post more if I learn anything about it.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 4, 2015)

There was a post on trainorders saying that the Bustitution happened on Monday CHI-IND because Amtrak didn't deadhead the IP equipment back to CHI on #51 for some reason???


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## jis (Aug 4, 2015)

MrFSS said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > INDOT Signs New Deal with Amtrak, Iowa Pacific to Keep Passenger Rail Running, Offers New Amenities on Board
> ...


It happened because Amtrak forgot to deadhead the equipment to position it for that run. I hope this was a genuine goofup and not something that was done intentionally, something that Amtrak has a sad history of indulging in when they lose out on something. Remember the silly performance that they put up after they lost the VRE contract?


----------



## Anderson (Aug 4, 2015)

jis said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > CHamilton said:
> ...


On the one hand, it was the first day and this whole thing came together at the last minute...it is entirely possible that someone goofed in briefing the crew about this. It happens, and they _did_ sign an agreement with IP, after all.

That being said, I think there's a clear case for IP to take their service daily ASAP. Failing that, adding "extra legs" to avoid the deadheading might be necessary (though I _think_ that would only go to 5x weekly).


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## jis (Aug 4, 2015)

Reading the discussion on trainorders one gets the impression that it was a remote Amtrak management decision to not do the deadhead that surprised everyone else, IP, CSX and even the Amtrak crew on location. So it would seem that a lack of situational awareness on part of Amtrak decision makers screwed up on a simple process. It happens.

Ed Ellis said OTOH, that they had a telephone call with all parties involved and everyone is now on the same page, and hopefully it won't happen again. Now the question is, who will have to eat the cost of all those buses caused by Amtrak goofup.


----------



## Anderson (Aug 4, 2015)

jis said:


> Reading the discussion on trainorders one gets the impression that it was a remote Amtrak management decision to not do the deadhead that surprised everyone else, IP, CSX and even the Amtrak crew on location. So it would seem that a lack of situational awareness on part of Amtrak decision makers screwed up on a simple process. It happens.
> 
> Ed Ellis said OTOH, that they had a telephone call with all parties involved and everyone is now on the same page, and hopefully it won't happen again. Now the question is, who will have to eat the cost of all those buses caused by Amtrak goofup.


Ideally it would be Amtrak; that said, I suspect there will be a cost split of some sort (Amtrak goofed on it but the net cost was likely limited)...this is _probably_ going to end up actually being split between INDOT and Amtrak when it all comes out.

Also, I changed the name of the thread since the discussion has spilled _far_ beyond the status of the train in April.


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## jis (Aug 4, 2015)

Here's the story as reported in Trains:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/08/hoosier-state-partners-explain-monday-cancellation


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## MrFSS (Aug 6, 2015)

Now that Amtrak doesn't have the HS to use as a hospital train, _*The Cardinal*_ has the duties.

From a Chicago railcam, this was this morning's train burdened down with a bunch of stuff going to Beech Grove.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 6, 2015)

Thanks Tom, guess Beech Grove will only get shopped Cars three days a week now eh? More delays for the Card in Indy too!


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## west point (Aug 6, 2015)

Guess thet Heritage Baggage is going to pasture. Sure looks ratty.


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## John Bobinyec (Aug 7, 2015)

I have a couple of questions about operations.

On days that the Cardinal runs between Indianapolis and Chicago, are the IP cars tacked onto it or do the passengers just ride in the Amtrak cars?

On days that the Hoosier State runs, how are the Amtrak crews handled? I remember reading something a while back about how the crew which took the train to Chicago was also expected to take it back to Indianapolis but frequently ran out of time, thereby losing time waiting for a recrew enroute.

jb


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## jis (Aug 7, 2015)

The answer to the first question is that the IP consists is deadheaded attached to the Cardinal while the passengers ride in the Cardinal. INDOT's contract with IP is to use their consists for 4 trips each way per week using their OBS crew. So naturally when the consist is deadheaded on a Cardinal day there is no OBS crew on duty and hence no one gets to ride in those cars.

I don't know much bout how Amtrak T&E crew is allocated. There is apparently an issue of allocating additional T&E crew on the deadhead days, which is what caused that one bustitution.


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## John Bobinyec (Aug 7, 2015)

Yikes. What a mess. By my reckoning, here's the schedule:

Sun: 851 runs IND to CHI and returns as 850

Mon: 51 deadheads the IP consist from IND to CHI

850 runs CHI to IND under its own power

Tue: 851 runs IND to CHI under its own power

50 deadheads the IP consist from CHI to IND

Wed: 851 runs IND to CHI and returns as 850

Thu: IP consist reposes in IND

Fri: 851 runs IND to CHI and then returns as 850

Sat: IP consist reposes in IND

jb


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## Lonestar648 (Aug 7, 2015)

I don't see how this is saving anyone any costs, or efficiency, plus there is the additional wear and tear on the deadheading consist.


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## Anderson (Aug 7, 2015)

Lonestar648 said:


> I don't see how this is saving anyone any costs, or efficiency, plus there is the additional wear and tear on the deadheading consist.


Well, it's not like something like this wasn't going on before...


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## John Bobinyec (Aug 8, 2015)

So what do they do on Monday when 51 is late? Seems like for the money that IP has to pay Amtrak to switch the train at IND and CHI they would do better to just pay a crew to run it (with passengers) to CHI - especially if 51 is late.

Same thing on Tuesday - run it with a crew and passengers as a separate train but 10 minutes in front of or behind 50.

The switching that is done at both IND and CHI has to be costing something.

jb


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## jis (Aug 8, 2015)

I suggest you write in your good suggestions to InDOT, or even pm eee on trainorders, or message Ed Ellis on Facebook, if you really wish someone to take it on and do something about it


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## MrFSS (Aug 11, 2015)

*HERE* is the actual agreement between INDot and IP.


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## ruck (Aug 11, 2015)

Website for the train

https://www.hoosierstatetrain.com/

Menu

http://www.hoosierstatetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2015_Hoosier_State_Rack_Card_Menu_PRINT.pdf

Food costs seem pretty reasonable which is nice.


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## VentureForth (Aug 11, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see how this is saving anyone any costs, or efficiency, plus there is the additional wear and tear on the deadheading consist.
> ...


Nothing like an additional layer of profit requirements to get costs down. ?!?!?


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## jebr (Aug 11, 2015)

The food selection actually looks pretty good. Definitely better than the standard cafe car fare on Amtrak (a special meal each night? Eggs with hashbrowns? Imagine that sort of food on a Regional!)


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 11, 2015)

There is absolutely no logical reason for me to ever take this train, but after looking at the menu, I will have to find one. Plus, perhaps, send a snarky letter to Amtrak saying "How about giving us a menu like the Hoosier State has?"


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 11, 2015)

I just tried to sign up for their newsletter, but it says I have to confirm in an email they sent me (but I didn't receive an email). Did this happen to anyone else? It is, of course, not critical that I receive their newsletter, but I thought it might suggest some trip that would be a good excuse to take that train and have a delicious breakfast while riding it!


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## MrFSS (Aug 11, 2015)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I just tried to sign up for their newsletter, but it says I have to confirm in an email they sent me (but I didn't receive an email). Did this happen to anyone else? It is, of course, not critical that I receive their newsletter, but I thought it might suggest some trip that would be a good excuse to take that train and have a delicious breakfast while riding it!


I signed up for it and the confirming email came back to me immediately and clicking on the confirm button in the email took me back and said I was signed up.

Do you have another email you could try, check your spam folder?


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks, MrFSS--

I just tried it again and immediately got two emails, so the first one must have been delayed in the electronic air somewhere. I clicked the confirm button and am now signed up.

Of course, I can get eggs and hash browns in any south Jersey diner, but the view isn't anywhere near as good as the train view would be!


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 11, 2015)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Thanks, MrFSS--
> 
> I just tried it again and immediately got two emails, so the first one must have been delayed in the electronic air somewhere. I clicked the confirm button and am now signed up.
> 
> Of course, I can get eggs and hash browns in any south Jersey diner, but the view isn't anywhere near as good as the train view would be!


Especially the view from a Dome Car,!!


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## Anderson (Aug 11, 2015)

MrFSS said:


> *HERE* is the actual agreement between INDot and IP.


Some of the details spelled out in that agreement are amusing (the bottles of water for the engine crew, for example). Of particular note is that the agreement is for daily service...if/when slots are available on all seven days (the lack of slots being at issue, of course). Also of note is the connecting bus service additions.


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## CHamilton (Aug 11, 2015)

From Hunter Gatlin on the Facebook Amtrak Fans group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TszX-xazwk


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## Anderson (Aug 11, 2015)

On looking at the seats, it struck me that those are _not_ Amtrak-standard seats. I cannot place them, but they seem to be of a slightly different seat design (and they're a good bit nicer than the coach seats I saw on Saratoga and North Creek)...they look like non-long legrest Sleepy Hollow seats, actally.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 11, 2015)

Yes, but Sleepy Hallow seats didn't have plastic backs and tray tables...


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## jis (Aug 11, 2015)

These structurally look similar to Amtrak seats but with different upholstery. Hard to tell more from photos.


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## Notelvis (Aug 11, 2015)

Dome Car.....

Must ride.


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## west point (Aug 11, 2015)

If the train is selling out why has IP not found any more rolling stock ( cars )


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## Anderson (Aug 11, 2015)

There are a couple of reasons for that:
-One is that, contrary to the occasional thought experiment, there isn't a magical Budd Fairy around to drop ready rolling stock on a line. At a bare minimum you're looking at a few days to move cars around, if not a few weeks (or more) to fix cars up. To be fair, IP might be able to move equipment from Saratoga in a few weeks. All of this is not free.

-A second is that IP isn't selling dome space yet. I have no doubt that they'll start ASAP, but until they do that likely means that they have extra capacity within the present set.

-Finally, the biggest concern is that IP isn't likely to want to spend a bunch of money moving a third coach into position and adding it only to find out that the sold out Hoosiers were an opening week fluke. They've had the route for less than two weeks, after all.


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## Zach (Aug 11, 2015)

Ok, I need figure a reason to go from CHI to IND now....question, so is the agreement IP provide the rolling stock and Amtrak the T&E?


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## jis (Aug 12, 2015)

IP provides rolling stock and OBS. Amtrak provides Engineer and Conductors.


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## cirdan (Aug 12, 2015)

jis said:


> These structurally look similar to Amtrak seats but with different upholstery. Hard to tell more from photos.


Could it be they are Talgo seats?


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## PerRock (Aug 12, 2015)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > These structurally look similar to Amtrak seats but with different upholstery. Hard to tell more from photos.
> ...


IP is using older Pullman & Budd cars. Nothing near that new. Although there is 2 Talgo sets sitting in Beech Grove they could look into buying.

peter


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## VentureForth (Aug 12, 2015)

Wait a minute - did they pull this rolling stock from Pullman Rail Journeys?


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## jis (Aug 12, 2015)

Pullman Rail Journeys had Coaches? I thought they were luxury Sleeper service, no?


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## zephyr17 (Aug 12, 2015)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > These structurally look similar to Amtrak seats but with different upholstery. Hard to tell more from photos.
> ...


Definitely not Talgo seats, at least not those on the Cascades sets.


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## Palmetto (Aug 12, 2015)

Ed has been quoted as saying they are readying more equipment. It takes a while to get it certified.


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## dlagrua (Aug 12, 2015)

We departed from CHI on the Cardinal yesterday to PHl. The train was about 11 cars long with the extra sleeper car and two engines: The Amtrak engine up front and the brightly colored Iowa Pacific on the rear. There were four vintage coaches in Iowa Pacific colors and the large consist was split in Indianapolis. Why both trains and their engines were all connected is a mystery.

The trip was pleasant but in WV we were held for an hour as we passed a CSX train that had been stopped when a pedestrian had jumped in front of the moving freight engine. Sad but true.


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## jis (Aug 12, 2015)

It is not a mystery. It is a regular deadhead move for the Iowa Pacific consist which has been previously discussed here, even in this very thread I think IIRC. Actually there should have been two IP engines and three cars in the back.


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## dlagrua (Aug 12, 2015)

We have been away for two weeks so we got the news later than expected. I can say that the new combined train makes for a long walk to the sleepers. Come to think of it there may have been two Iowa Pacific engines but one looked like a generator car . It is very different seeing vintage private passenger cars on the rails. This evokes an image of years past. Maybe the people in Washington that oppose Amtrak will be happy about the new Hoosier State.


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## VentureForth (Aug 12, 2015)

jis said:


> Pullman Rail Journeys had Coaches? I thought they were luxury Sleeper service, no?


I thought they were sleepers only, and they may well be. But wasn't the Dome car on the Pullman? The paint scheme looks the same, that's what caused me to blurt out without thinking.


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## CCC1007 (Aug 12, 2015)

They have about 16 of those domes.


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## Steve4031 (Aug 12, 2015)

Zach said:


> Ok, I need figure a reason to go from CHI to IND now....question, so is the agreement IP provide the rolling stock and Amtrak the T&E?


Riding this train is a reason.


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## rrdude (Aug 12, 2015)

CCC1007 said:


> They have about 16 of those domes.


IPH has 16 of the full length dome cars? Who knew? Not me.


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## jis (Aug 12, 2015)

Are you sure that all their dome cars are full length domes?


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## Notelvis (Aug 12, 2015)

I don't know if they have 16 full length domes BUT they do have more than a couple in use on their various scenic railroad operations. There is ALOT of other vintage passenger equipment sitting around (including 5-6 of the old Santa Fe Hi-level coaches from the El Capitan) in the yard in Alamosa, CO where IPH has a restoration shop just waiting for there to be a reason for a makeover. Here is a photo I took there back in June.


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## Notelvis (Aug 12, 2015)

Another photo from Alamosa this summer....... IPH has LOT's of vintage passenger equipment awaiting restoration at their disposal. This dome looks like one of the low profile domes B&O used on their Capitol Limited. It and the coach next to it (plus the three cars on the other side of that older coach) were last used on the defunct Minnesota Zephyr Dinner Train in Stillwater, MN. The F-unit diesels which pulled that dinner train are sitting in Alamosa too.


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## neroden (Aug 13, 2015)

Anderson said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > *HERE* is the actual agreement between INDot and IP.
> ...


I do hope that eventually Amtrak can get a daily slot for the Cardinal, and IP can get a different daily slot for the Hoosier State. Either:

-- IP should have the morning CHI->IND, evening IND->CHI slot

Or:

-- IP should have the current slot, while the Cardinal should have the morning CHI->IND, evening IND->CHI slot

I favor the first, because morning CHI->IND, evening IND->CHI are the "Indianapolis tourist promotion" slots and I think that the state government would be more interested in funding that... the current slots are the "escaping from Indiana to visit Chicago" slots...


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## jis (Aug 13, 2015)

Does IP have any slot at all? Doesn't the train still operate under Amtrak's agreement with CSX with Amtrak T&E crew? At least at present IP has no operational responsibility. Getting there is going to be another interesting can of worms.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 13, 2015)

Steve4031 said:


> Zach said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I need figure a reason to go from CHI to IND now.
> ...


Okay--works for me. Putting it on my bucket list.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 13, 2015)

jis said:


> Does IP have any slot at all? Doesn't the train still operate under Amtrak's agreement with CSX with Amtrak T&E crew? At least at present IP has no operational responsibility. Getting there is going to be another interesting can of worms.


Yes, they use Amtrak's slot. Amtrak will almost certainly continue to have operational responsiblity.


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## dlagrua (Aug 13, 2015)

The IP agreement with Amtrak is most interesting as it may pave the way to add additional equipment on other routes. The public /private partnership may be the way of the future. The Hoosier state runs with an Amtrak conductor and engineer and led by a colorful Iowa Pacific marked engine. We saw the consist when we were in CUS on Tuesday. Outside of the two Amtrak employees, the food service people and other onboard personnel are IP employees. Now that IP equipment is available, I just wonder why the Cardinal that is often completely full to capacity both ways, isn't going to a daily schedule? Ip has dining cars and sleepers available.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 14, 2015)

Well, among other things, the Cardinal takes the slot the other 3 days. Indiana isn't going to pay IP to run the Cardinal all the way through. Better if IP got a separate daily slot from the Cardinal with better times in Indianapolis.


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## Anderson (Aug 14, 2015)

zephyr17 said:


> Well, among other things, the Cardinal takes the slot the other 3 days. Indiana isn't going to pay IP to run the Cardinal all the way through. Better if IP got a separate daily slot from the Cardinal with better times in Indianapolis.


Not to mention that an agreement to run the Hoosier on the back of the Cardinal would be a complicated mess of compensation and counter-compensation between Amtrak and the state. Though the menu differs, at least on all days you have a reasonable food service situation on the train (IP's days being better than Amtrak's from what I can tell).


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## CHamilton (Aug 14, 2015)

rtabern's review of the Hoosier State:

Amtrak's Cardinal & Iowa Pacific's Hoosier State

Checking out the new service from Lafayette, Indiana to Chicago


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## Ryan (Aug 14, 2015)

Great report!


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 14, 2015)

This is a must ride if you can get to Indy or CHI. What a deal!

And robs usual great trip report makes it sound like you are there! Thanks for sharing Charlie!


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## rrdude (Aug 14, 2015)

One of the best trip reports on this board I have ever read. Nicely done Robert. Felt like I was there! (Wish I _was_ there.....)


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## dlagrua (Aug 15, 2015)

While we did not ride the new Hoosier State we did walk the entire length of the consist, this past Tuesday at CUS. You have to walk past it to get to the Cardinal's Cars. It a much longer walk to board the trains but being railfans, we very much enjopyed seeing the old style design, coloring and vintage cars of the IP train on the rails. Only time will tell how popular the IP diner/observation car will be. Frequent riders would probably find it to be a refreshing change from the Amfleet Coaches.


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## MrFSS (Aug 15, 2015)

dlagrua said:


> Only time will tell how popular the IP diner/observation car will be. Frequent riders would probably find it to be a refreshing change from the Amfleet Coaches.


That dome/observation car is really nice as you ride through the mountains of northwest and central Indiana!!


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 15, 2015)

MrFSS said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Only time will tell how popular the IP diner/observation car will be. Frequent riders would probably find it to be a refreshing change from the Amfleet Coaches.
> ...


Good one Tom! Does it make the Corn and Bean fields look better? LOL


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## GregL (Aug 15, 2015)

Not to mention the mountain streams loaded with trout!

Greg


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## NorthShore (Aug 17, 2015)

If the IP cars (and crews) are being deadheaded on most Cardinal trips, why not coordinate a plan to make the dome available for additional dinner seating out of Chicago. Sort of like a partial Pacific Parlor Car perk for sleeper passengers.


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## rrdude (Aug 17, 2015)

NorthShore said:


> If the IP cars (and crews) are being deadheaded on most Cardinal trips, why not coordinate a plan to make the dome available for additional dinner seating out of Chicago. Sort of like a partial Pacific Parlor Car perk for sleeper passengers.


Because that would make sense.......... SMH


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## jis (Aug 17, 2015)

NorthShore said:


> If the IP cars (and crews) are being deadheaded on most Cardinal trips, why not coordinate a plan to make the dome available for additional dinner seating out of Chicago. Sort of like a partial Pacific Parlor Car perk for sleeper passengers.


It is a decision that INDOT has to make, and work out the logisitics of hooking up the consist in such a way that passengers can actually go to the IP consist from the Amtrak consist. Somehow I think this is unlikely to happen in the short run at least.


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## keelhauled (Aug 17, 2015)

Because IP equipment is deadheaded on only two of the Cardinal's six weekly trips. Because Amtrak would have to pay IP for the use of the equipment. Because Amtrak would have to pay to staff the car. Because even if there was more seating the Cardinal's food service can't handle feeding that many people at once.


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## jis (Aug 17, 2015)

Besides the upper level of the Dome is to become Diamond Class, and will not be accessible by those that did not buy a Diamond Class ticket. Food service for he rest will be provided in the lower level cafe.

All in all what is being proposed is a bit of a logistical nightmare. Remember that the equipment and OBS contract is between INDOT and IP. Amtrak is party to it only to the extent that they are to provide T&E to operate it.

The best way toi proceed going forward would be for arranging with CSX to get a second clear slot for 7 days a week to be used by a daily Hoosier State (well I suspect it will be 6 days a week rather than daily) and that can have the regular Hoosier State service provided by IP. The Cardinal can operate separately as a LD train providing whatever service Amtrak chooses to provide or not.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 17, 2015)

Why do you think 6 days a week?


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## jis (Aug 17, 2015)

Well, it is often the case that when you want to operate a service with just one consist typically you run it 6 days a week and service the consist on the 7th day.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 17, 2015)

Ok I get the maintance and staffing issue is much easier 6 days a week, but we should be running trains for the passangers and not for the operators.

It would be interesting to see what day would not get service, and how would you sell it to the state. It's a short haul train, not a long distance train.

Which of course does bring up the issue with IP trains. At some point the you will need to swap out equipment for service. There goes your Diamond Class service.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 17, 2015)

IP has more cars than is realized including several Dome/Diner cars and can run Diamond Class easily on every train if substitutions are needed!

jis explained the 6 day a week service and why it wouldn't work 7 days a week without more service!


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## cirdan (Aug 18, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> IP has more cars than is realized including several Dome/Diner cars and can run Diamond Class easily on every train if substitutions are needed!


But can they be substitued at short(ish) notice? If they are scattered across the country or in use on other services, you can't really change them around very easily if there is an issue.


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## DSS&A (Aug 26, 2015)

Hi,

The Iowa Pacific owns a shortline railroad in Bensenville, Illinois that is only about 21 miles from Chicago Union Station via a Metra commuter train route. The following information was posted on an Yahoo Group discussion list about IP domes for the Hoosier State.

Hoosier State update - Amtrak Issue

By: pacificcoastshay

Jul 16

The answers are pretty straightforward, so I hope you will indulge me on them.

First off, the domes as built had two 12 ton AC units, one in an equipment locker on each end of the car on the lower level. They also had either a service bar or a nurse's station on the lower level, and some of them had dorm spaces. Holland America rebuilt the cars for excursion service in Alaska back in the 1980s, adding a galley, restrooms, and most importantly, a water system and generator. In order to make room for a big water tank to feed the galley and restrooms, and the generator, the HVAC units were removed and new bus-type systems (not RV, much larger capacity) were placed on either end of the upstairs roof. Then a smaller unit was placed in the downstairs locker at the A-end to service the lower level.

IPH owns nine of the full domes. Four of them - SLRG 511, 551, 554 and 1394 - have been refitted for Amtrak service. Those modifications include removal of the rooftop units and replacement with a custom-designed Northwest Rail Electric system that fits two 10-ton systems in the A-end locker around the water tank and pump, and the air handlers in former storage areas at the A- and B-end of the car. The other five domes - SLRG 508, 509, 510, 512 and 513 - all retain their rooftop units, though parts are being assembled right now for conversion of 509. None of the cars with rooftop AC units are Amtrak certified, and replacement of the HVAC system to the internal system is an essential part of the Amtrak upgrades, to make the car meet clearance specs.

The Hoosier State dome is SLRG 554 "Summit View", and has received extensive modification to make the interior systems conform to modern regulatory standards. It has received intense scrutiny from the FRA, Amtrak, FDA and EPA, and passed with flying colors. Much of the work was very trivial - placing of decals, etc. - and some of it was much more intensive - rebuilding sink areas and countertops to conform to modern rules, installing additional emergency lighting, etc.

Right now, 554 is one of a kind in the fleet and in the country, as a fully modernized, 49CFR Part 238-compliant, FDA certificated intercity passenger service dome. A second car is being refitted as well to be an exact copy of the 554. That will probably be 509, though there is still some discussion. In addition, 511 received a lot of the same upgrade work for Pullman service. There is some additional work left to do before it is in the same place as 554, but that work will be progressed as well, as the requirements for Pullman service pretty closely match the Hoosier State requirements. Based on where they are in terms of work to be done, I would expect that 511 will be the first to be completed, and will serve as a backup to 554 should it ever be bad-ordered."


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## MrFSS (Aug 26, 2015)

Interesting story.

*LINK *

*Last paragraph says:*



_*If Indiana is truly serious about being a business-friendly state, would like to attract the best and brightest of employees and add significantly to the local and state economy, its businesses would generously benefit from having 21st century passenger trains as an option in travel decisions. In fact, it is my guess that at some point, it could be difficult to get a reservation on one of these trains. The new Iowa Pacific Hoosier State line from Indianapolis to Chicago, via Crawfordsville, Lafayette, Renssalaer and Dyer is often sold out.*_


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## rogers55 (Oct 29, 2015)

Just got off the Hoosier State in CHI. Refurbed cars, WiFi that works and dining car with real china. Operating crew is Amtrak, equipment and support crew are Iowa & Pacific. Getting on an orange and brown train was a little strange.


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## neroden (Oct 31, 2015)

jis said:


> The best way toi proceed going forward would be for arranging with CSX to get a second clear slot for 7 days a week to be used by a daily Hoosier State (well I suspect it will be 6 days a week rather than daily) and that can have the regular Hoosier State service provided by IP. The Cardinal can operate separately as a LD train providing whatever service Amtrak chooses to provide or not.


Well, indeed, the best way to go forward would be a clear slot 7 days a week for the Hoosier State and a different clear slot 7 days a week for a daily Cardinal. But that would make too much sense, right?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Oct 31, 2015)

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The best way toi proceed going forward would be for arranging with CSX to get a second clear slot for 7 days a week to be used by a daily Hoosier State (well I suspect it will be 6 days a week rather than daily) and that can have the regular Hoosier State service provided by IP. The Cardinal can operate separately as a LD train providing whatever service Amtrak chooses to provide or not.
> ...


Assuming the Cardinal remains near the times it is now (6:00am leave IND and 11:50pm arrive IND) and the Hoosier State is scheduled at more friendly times between CHI and IND, then almost everyone between CHI and IND will rather take the Hoosier State.

The most popular city pair for the Cardinal now? CHI-IND. For the three days the Hoosier State doesn't run, that's their only choice. If they had a choice I'd imagine they'd take a better scheduled train. The second most popular pair on the Cardinal? Chicago to Lafayette. 35.6% of Cardinal passengers travel less than 200 miles. This includes the city pairs of Chicago with Indy, Lafayette, and Crawfordsville which are all in the top nine city pairs listed. The only city pair in the top nine not included is the Charlottesville to Washington DC pair.

In the Cardinal PRIIA, the plan was once the daily Cardinal was running the Hoosier State would have been eliminated.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/536/878/PRIIA-210-Cardinal-PIP.pdf

If the Cardinal and Hoosier State were split, I would imagine the Cardinal's daily ridership would plummet without passengers traveling between CHI-IND only. Even if you believe daily service would double the current ridership, you would have to double a smaller number than the 107,391 passengers last year. If the Cardinal and Hoosier State were separate, I'd probably estimate around 150,000 passengers.

http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/trains_2014.pdf

If All Aboard Ohio actually succeeds in getting the Hoosier State to Cincinnati and those passengers leave the Cardinal, good luck getting 120,000 a year even with daily operation.

http://allaboardohio.org/hoosier/

How low would the Cardinal have to go before Amtrak finally pulls the plug?

By all means, full speed ahead for more Hoosier State!


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## neroden (Nov 1, 2015)

> If the Cardinal and Hoosier State were split, I would imagine the Cardinal's daily ridership would plummet without passengers traveling between CHI-IND only.


You are dead wrong, PhillyAmtrakFan, because you haven't analyzed the way the market for train service actually works.
When you have *two* daily trains, as long as they're on substantially different schedules and both in the daytime, people take one out and the other back.

A daily Hoosier State on a schedule to leave IND in the morning and arrive IND in the evening would BENEFIT the Cardinal (which leaves IND in the evening and arrives in the morning). If the schedules were tweaked appropriately and made somewhat faster, people would take one train out and the other train back.

Make the Cardinal daily (by itself), you get 7/3 as much ridership, minimum: that's 2.3 times as much. This isn't disputable, this change is documented from previous 'experiments' Amtrak has done; it's usually more than that..

Then add a Hoosier State on the 'opposite' schedule from Indianapolis to Chicago. Joint Hoosier State-Cardinal ridership on the Indianapolis-Chicago corridor would likely be 2x as high as for one train a day, meaning that the Cardinal would have the same number of riders. Even if ridership was only 1.5 times as high for two trains a day as for one train a day (and this is the minimum improvement which has ever been seen when this change was made), that is only a reduction of 25% on the Cardinal's IND-CHI ridership (only), and that's relative to the new (2.3x as high) baseline.

Think about it. If there were a morning train and an evening train from Indianpolis to Chicago each way, the ridership on *both* trains benefits.

The benefits of a more frequent schedule are that they cause people to take the train who would not have considered it because of scheduling. Going from less-than-daily to daily adds a huge number of potential passengers, and going from daily to twice-daily adds a very large number of potential passengers. Going to higher frequencies continues to add more passengers, though the returns diminish.

Another way to look at this: a daily Cardinal will mean 7/3 as much ridership on the IND-NYP section, while a twice-daily Cardinal and Hoosier State will mean 1.5x-2x as much ridership on the shared IND-CHI section. Costs increase by one trainset for the Cardinal, and none at all (more hours but no more trainsets) for the Hoosier State. This is a win-win.


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## Palmetto (Nov 1, 2015)

I think that all we have to do is look at what happened to ridership in Illinois when their routes doubled the number of trains to Carbondale and Quincy. Big, big, increases. It's a pretty sure bet that numbers would jump pretty high if CHI-IND became a corridor [5 trains + daily].


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 1, 2015)

In the case of the Cardinal/Hoosier State, you're saying one train is 6-10:05am IND-CHI and 5:45-11:50pm CHI-IND and the other would be assumedly be at friendlier times. Why would anyone want to leave at 6am or arrive at 11:50pm if they have a choice? Of course now they don't have a choice and they have to take the lousy times. Will more people travel between CHI-IND if the Hoosier State schedule was better? Absolutely. If two trains were at good times you can see both filling up. But with these two schedules you're absolutely telling everyone to take the Hoosier State between CHI-IND (maybe the Cardinal would still be reasonable for CHI to Lafayette).

I have actually suggested in another post of switching the Cardinal schedules (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66111-cardinal-st-louis-connection/) so the train doesn't arrive/leave IND near the ends of the day and instead arrives/leaves in Cincinnati around those times. Want to go from IND to the NEC? You can leave during the early evening instead of 11:59pm. You can get back to IND in the middle of the morning instead of 6:00am.


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## Ryan (Nov 1, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> In the case of the Cardinal/Hoosier State, you're saying one train is 6-10:05am IND-CHI and 5:45-11:50pm CHI-IND and the other would be assumedly be at friendlier times. Why would anyone want to leave at 6am or arrive at 11:50pm if they have a choice?


Because they need or want to be in Chicago in the morning, or leave in the late afternoon? Seems kind of obvious to me.

That's the awesome thing about multiple trains a day. You can sleep in and not get to CHI until the afternoon, and I'll have already had several hours in the city to get stuff done. Choice is an amazing thing.


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## west point (Nov 1, 2015)

Cardinal schedule is fairly locked to meet the daylight scenery in West Virginia


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## jis (Nov 1, 2015)

More precisely it is bracketed on one side by arrival and departure times at New York and at the other end with arrival and departure that does not break connection to western trains.


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## rms492 (Feb 6, 2016)

In looking at the timetable, no indication that this train is owned by Amtrak...or is it? Who actually owns the Hoosier State?  The state of Indiana?

Iowa Pacific? Amtrak? Who runs it? Who finances it?

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/341/787/Cardinal-Hoosier-State-Schedule-011116.pdf

just curious


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## Ryan (Feb 6, 2016)

The Hoosier State is... Complicated.. It depends on what you mean by "run it".

If you mean actually operate it, like the engineer and the conductor, Amtrak runs it.

If you mean sell tickets for it, that's Amtrak too.

If you mean who provides the equipment, that's Iowa Pacific.

If you mean who pays the bills for it, that's the state of Indiana.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 6, 2016)

I wish the timetable mentioned the differences in equipment.


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## greatcats (Feb 7, 2016)

Third rail- your suggestion would be too hard!


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## jis (Feb 7, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I wish the timetable mentioned the differences in equipment.


In days of yore providing details of equipment used to be the norm. I wonder why that has fallen by the wayside. Perhaps it has happened because of the lack of variety and also the inability to guarantee specific equipment in type and number due to equipment shortage?


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## Eric S (Feb 7, 2016)

Looks like it just gets the standard message that it is financed by funds from the state of IN - like all state-supported trains. Wouldn't be too hard to put some sort of mention about equipment being provided by Iowa Pacific, although I guess that would be almost meaningless to most people.


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