# Amenities Being Eliminated from Long Distance Routes



## rickycourtney

Over on Trainorders someone has posted an image of Food & Beverage/Operations Support Notice FSN 14-02. It outlines several amenities that are being eliminated from long distance services. The list is pretty grim folks.

Here's a verbatim of what it says:



> *Employees:* All
> 
> *Food Service Car/Type:* Diner, Lounge, Cafè, Pacific Parlour Car, Diner Lite
> 
> 
> *Region:* All
> 
> 
> *Train Specific: All Long Distance trains except the Auto Train*
> 
> 
> *Issue Date:* February 4, 2014
> 
> _(EDIT: I'm leaving off the contact information, it's too hard to read.)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Background:*
> 
> A number of amenity items are being eliminated and removed from long distance services.
> 
> *Advisory:*
> 
> The following amenity items are being eliminated and removed from long distance services. Effective dates are posted next to the items and the commissaries will stop boarding these items on these dates. Ending dates were set based on the calculated depletion of existing inventories.
> 
> 
> *Wine & Cheese Receptions - Effective March 31, 2014*Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> Lake Shore Ltd.
> 
> [*]*Complimentary 187ml Champagne & Non-Alcoholic Cider - Effective March 31, 2014*
> [*]*Aseptic Cranberry Juice will no longer be offered in the Sleeping Car - Effective February 8, 2014*
> Orange and Apple will continue to be offered
> Dining car will continue to offer Cranberry Juice
> 
> [*]*Complimentary Newspapers - Effective Date TBA. *Research is underway regarding existing contracts in place with current vendors
> [*]*Amenity Kits - Effective May 31, 2014*
> Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> 
> [*]*Flowers and Vases on Dining Car Tables - Effective February 15, 2014*
> [*]*Astor Chocolate Squares - Effective March 31, 2014*
> Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation.​*This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*​


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## Aaron

> *Wine & Cheese Receptions - Effective March 31, 2014*


Well, I don't drink, so no big loss to me personally (Yes, I know... "First they came for the wine and cheese, and I did not speak out, because I don't drink.") Still, has anyone ever connected the dots to see whether wine sales in the dining car or lounge were increased on the trains that did the receptions? I would think they could possibly break even on these, but again, I don't drink, so I don't know what it takes to get people to buy more wine.



> *Amenity Kits - Effective May 31, 2014*


I'm still waiting for the kits promised me on either of my last two Starlight trips, so there's no apparent change for me.



> *Flowers and Vases on Dining Car Tables - Effective February 15, 2014*


I think the table is too cluttered as it is.



> *Astor Chocolate Squares - Effective March 31, 2014*


Again, never seen them myself.

While I mourn any example of decline by degrees, these changes all seem minor, in my opinion. I like a good old fashioned newspaper from a city I'm visiting, but I'll have to get one myself from now on. And instead of pouring my own cranberry juice, I'll wait a couple of hours and get it with a meal. The other amenities have been so inconsistent that they're worth cutting in my opinion just for the sake of increased consistency. Customer satisfaction could very well increase if passengers are always getting what they're promised instead of the current crapshoot. In my office we're fond of the phrase "under promise and over deliver". It's an easy recipe for customer satisfaction. With Amtrak, it's too often "over promise and under deliver". At this point, I'd just settle for "under promise and deliver the exact level of service promised".

These cuts are clearly a gesture toward Mica and his ilk, and while they won't really affect passengers all that much, I fear their insignificance means they won't save that much either.


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## Anderson

On the one hand, it's a shame to see the wine tasting go away on the Starlight. It's also a shame to see it go away on the LSL; I wish that could have held on until they could redo the schedule. On the other hand, the cranberry juice likely didn't get consumed much, making it a bit of a waste, and the newspapers really are a holdover to another era. I don't think I've _looked _at a paper more than a half-dozen times in the last few years when I wasn't on a train.


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## chrsjrcj

Clearly this should put Amtrak on the track to profitability, and rein in the country's $500 bn budget deficit.

/sarc


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## benjibear

The only thing of any significance for me was the newspaper. I did read the paper while traveling. It was a USA today and it was good to have that newspaper. Now if they were to get wi-fi on ld trains, this would be a completly mute point for me.

Nothing on the list is that significant. In the entire scheme of things, these things probably have minimum value, but it looks like a good faith effort to the public and our elected officials that Amtrak is cutting waste.


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## Ziv

Too bad about the wine tastings. That was a nice touch.

Newspapers are ok, but I would rather have wi-fi. The absence of both is a bit of a negative.


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## RalphCT

I've experienced and seen all of these services on board the Empire Builder. They are all part of the first class level of service that these trains have provided. Loss of these amenities will have an impact. It's all the little things that make LD train travel enjoyable.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


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## Michael061282

The wine tasting is a loss for those who drink wine. I don't (but have ZERO problem with those who do, unless they over do it), so no loss for me. Honestly though I thought Amtrak were "pushing" the wine & cheese a little too much, but I'm (very admittedly) a bit sensitive, having had more a couple of family member suffer from Cirrhosis. I probably wouldn't have been so sensitive though if they had of offered something for those of us who choose not to drink but c'est la vie. I never saw nor received any chocolates and lately the only newspapers I've had are USATodays, sometimes those are day old (and I don't mean the weekend versions). It is a bummer to see the sleepers lose a lot of amenities though


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## Railroad Bill

I agree that it will have no effect on my desire to travel on Amtrak, but it is an indication that more cuts may be in the offing as pressure is applied in the Congress to make Amtrak a "profitable" venture.

Food quality is still quite good in my opinion and I would hope that those in charge do not cut in those areas of service. I would agree with Aaron that consistency in service is more important than promising things that are not delivered. Amtrak employees can sell train travel as much as these amenities. Those are areas where quality control needs the most work. Keep the many excellent employees and weed out the undesirable lot who create a bad impression among travelers.


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## CHamilton

Amtrak riders: this is important, whether you use these amenities or not.

If the (probably ridiculously small) amount saved by eliminating these amenities were being redirected to improving frequencies and reliability, I'd be all for it. But of course, Amtrak won't get any more money for adding more trains. No, they'll just get their budget cut again, all to give brownie points to certain politicians who love to micromanage Amtrak while throwing money at other huge budget items (defense, highways, pick your poison...).

I'm sorry, but I'm fuming about this. We've seen such cuts before, and they never _*improve train service.*_ Which is what I assume you want if you're reading this board. It's time to call your representatives, and tell them to stop f***ing with Amtrak, and start paying attention to where the money pits really are.

Get on the phone to DC NOW!!


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## Michael061282

and yeah, this will have no bearing on me riding in a sleeper. None at all. It's the only way I'll travel overnight. Honestly I'd be just as happy if they brought back slumbercoach class, where you got bed but hd to pay for meals etc. Mostly... I just want the bed at night.


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## rrdude

It IS the little things that make it kind of feel like 1st class. This is a very, very, bad sign. Many "casual" travelers actually talk about the little perks they get. Otherwise, what do you have? A flat bed, and a meal or two at a bland table (sans flowers).

Been through this once before, and it really sucked....

As an LSA, I bought/brought my own carnations on several occasions. (They didn't remove the bud vases from the dining car itself)

I got written up (didn't care) and got letters from customers praising what I'd did. One TM actually removed the bud vases and carnations that I had put out, (and paid for) and put them in the reefer. When he saw me putting them back on the table, he threatened to fire me, right in front of customers having a meal! I simply responded by saying something like, "Well then, I'll just have to find a new job..."

Got called in for a "talk" by our union rep, Bert, but he was unofficially behind me too. (He had been Pullman-trained)

Thie elimination of these amenities is mostly a "signal" to some stoopid politico, that Amtrak is "doing everything possible to cut costs....."

I still talk about the "little things" that ViaRail provided me on my Ocean trip.

Do ya get the idea that this stoopid move pisses me off? lol

Sooooo, from now on, let's ALL add to our list of "Things to bring when traveling Amtrak" a small bud vase, and either a real or fake carnation.......


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## Anderson

I'd say that any focus should be on the wine and cheese receptions. Like I noted, the cranberry juice was likely going to waste in a lot of cases. The newspapers were a throwback that I never quite "got", while the chocolate squares were provided erratically at best (I occasionally wound up with them on the Silvers, for example, but not necessarily on the Starlight).

I'll also say it: Amtrak got such crappy champagne that I know I'd opt for the cider. Not to be too blunt, but dropping that almost seems more like "We couldn't do it right, so better not to do it than to do it badly." The wine and cheese is an obvious thing, however, and that _is_ a shame, especially since the charge could easily have been linked to a portion of the sleeper fare.

The amenity kit is the other one with a discernible impact on a trip, especially on a two-night run such as the Builder.


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## CHamilton

Anderson, the timing of this couldn't be worse. As your analysis shows, the long distance trains are hurting, mostly due to factors beyond Amtrak's control. So what do they do? Make the on-board experience *less attractive!* As I said, if the money saved could be plowed into doing something about the EB's OTP, I'd be all for it, but that's not what will happen.


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## Shortline

I guess you can put me in the "no big loss" camp. I never bothered with the wine and cheese (bring my own), don't enjoy the USA today, especially when I can download any paper in the US on a tablet, never even knew they HAD cranberry juice in sleepers (only ever saw orange and apple) could care less about a small piece of chocolate, never really even noticed the flowers, and find that "champagne" on the EB to be undrinkable. The amenities kit was nice, but with it only offered on a few trains anyway...probably best to have and set a standard expectation.

In my view, cheap wine, hack newspapers, and drug store chocolates didn't exactly say "First Class" anyway....but, some do like those little things, I get that, but I just can't see any of this as a big deal. frankly, I'm just glad this is all we're losing this go round.


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## CHamilton

Shortline said:


> I just can't see any of this as a big deal. frankly, I'm just glad this is all we're losing this go round.


I agree on some of the specifics, but you're right on the last point: this is a slippery slope, and more cuts will be coming if we don't stop them now. Plus, the core problem is that Amtrak is forced to pay more attention to its overlords on Capitol Hill than to its fare-paying, train-riding customers. And that issue won't go away until Amtrak has a funding mechanism that isn't dependent on the vagaries of who's the loudest voice in Congress during a particular session.


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## rrdude

Shortline, I too am in general agreement with many of your points, (Wine, newspaper, however I differ on the flower....) but "we", those who post on this board, and ride Amtrak _*a lot*_, need to think how this will shake out in the "real world".

It's mostly about _*perceptions*_ (at many different level, budget is one of them) Granted the wine ain't great, USA Today sux, and the amenity bag is nothing to write home about, except that *people do write home about it*. "People" being the traveling public, not railfans.

It's like going to a fancy restaurant, and the food sucks, but your server was so far off-the-hook fantastic, that you RAVE about the place.

Amtrak doesn't have much to show for first class now, in fact I'd be in the camp that they don't offer anything close to first class, except on the Acela. Sure you get a bed, you get a meal. If that's all it's gonna be, then bring back the section cars, with open berths.

It cost _*so little*_ to provide the _*perception*_ of first class, that if you are gonna charge the prices that Amtrak does, then provide SOMEthing other than a flat bed and a very-average meal.

Would you care if they ditched the Club Acelas? Went to complete airline-style food? Removed ALL lounge cars, (hey, they are NON-revenue).

Amtrak has already been forced to the lowest of low when it comes to the dining car now, I guess removing the fresh flowers is the next logical step.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for "cruise-style" amenities, and the crews, God-Bless-Them, turn out some pretty impressive meals from time-to-tine, given with what they have to work with. But it seems to me it's a "race to the bottom:" when it comes to service with Amtrak.

Makes me want to support farming the food service out to the highest bidder, and let those companies improve it. (with a clause of course to cover any deficit)


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## CoachSlumber

It's bad enough that the Lake Shore leaves at a ridiculously late hour, with no dinner service. Now they cut the only evening amenity? Oh well, I stopped taking the LSL some time ago.


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## CHamilton

A discussion on this topic on the Facebook EB page has some interesting ideas on how Amtrak could really save money.



> They could buy a lot of flowers for the price of a dog catch crew.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. If eliminating these amenities would improve the EB's reliability, I'd be all for it, but that's not where the tiny savings will go. We need to tell Congress, and the state legislators in OR, WA, ID, ND, MN, WI and IL, to give us a train that gets there on time, or give up and bring back the North Coast Hiawatha and the Pioneer instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously. What is the "cost" per hour of service delay both in hard and soft dollars?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been wondering that, and haven't seen any numbers. But it's got to be substantial, between crew costs, refunds, bustitutions, overtime for station personnel, and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recently had a chat with an official at Union Station, Chicago. He said that it costs about $10,000 per day for delays to the EB.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be shocked if it cost that much or more.. Cost of flying/cab ride for the crew to replace expired crews... Well, the bus for on time catch is done, and hotel stays as well.


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## SubwayNut

I assume this means the demise of the Pacific Parlour Cars next... I can understand the illumination on the Empire Builder, it was clearly something that meant an extremely long day for the staff on that middle day who were serving 3 meals to a very crowded train already.


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## FriskyFL

And so it begins...


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## Ispolkom

Isn't the most important line in the notice this:



> *This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*


Until I hear something official, I'm taking this to be an April Fools Joke.


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## yarrow

these changes are typical administrative bs. wonder what was supplied to eat and drink to the amtrak braintrust at their meetings and retreats to come up with these brilliant ideas? yes, these amenities were inconsistent and i always wondered why the weren't system wide for the ld trains but they enhanced the experience for our friends and family. gave people something to talk about besides late trains, unhearable announcements, unadjustable climate control in accomodations and absent sleeping car attendants. i would certainly prophesy that the ppcs will be next to go


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## KC Ghost Rider

For me this news is rather sad. I enter into a contract with Amtrak with a purchase of a ticket. On the date of that purchase certain amenities were promoted and promised that were above the promise to get me from point A to point B. An example was the LSL wine and cheese reception; it was supposedly offered to sleeper accommodation passengers because not dinner service was available. Now they take it away without compensation. I believe I paid for it. 

However, as a whole I never have seen the chocolates, amenity kits, cranberry juice in the sleepers I have traveled in. I like the idea of the news paper, but only glance at it, so no big lose there either. Perhaps my biggest fear is they will cancel sleeper Class and with it the diner. The two biggest reason I prefer the train to begin with.


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## Anderson

I will say there's a single major *** factor here: Amtrak has posted an operating _*PROFIT*_ for the first three months of FY14. Let that sink in. Yes, it's a result of a bunch of factors coming together (including payment timing), but ticket revenue is up almost $40m year-over-year. For the full year, Amtrak is expecting to show a hair under $150m in additional revenue and an improvement in net operations of almost $75m including depreciation and about $115m once you exclude depreciation.

Or, not to put too fine a point on it, why is Amtrak cutting this when (A) funding was just reauthorized at a sustainable level and (B) they just had what might have been the best quarter in their history?


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## mkeroad

I won't take my first LD trip until next month but I've been hanging around here long enough to know that there needs to be a distinct first class to pay some large overhead. I'm retired and on a budget and will ride coach to save money. When I read about the parlor car I was very tempted to pop $400 for the length of the Starlight. I'm not getting any younger and some first class is worth the price and experience.

Good point Ghost Rider!


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## yarrow

Anderson said:


> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, why is Amtrak cutting this when (A) funding was just reauthorized at a sustainable level and (B) they just had what might have been the best quarter in their history?


might be a good question the ask smilin' joe (that is if he's not too busy riding around in his private rail car)


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## andersone

I guess I will cancel my EB reservations for August because I wanted the amenities bag so much,,,, *NOT*

The mention of slippery slope however bears merit. I spent most of my professional life as a public employee, and still remember the mandates from governor's to "just cut the budget by 15%". I do a lot of customer service measurement these days,, and rrdude is right on when he talks about _*perceptions*_,,,, It doesn't take a lot for most customers to move from "what a nice thing , a wine tasting just for us" to "what's so special about sleeper accommodations other than a flat bed and meals."

I myself have been clean and sober for more than 19 years, but appreciate those folks who can handle drinking and certainly remember the pleasure it brought me,,, but I would propose the challenge is to find substitute activities that ADD value to the experience such as getting WiFi to work on the LD trains. There is a solution we just have to find it and apply it. I would sell the investment costs as a sustainability issue (one of the other hats I wear these days) in that replacing the costs of newspaper delivery and recycling (hopefully they do that with their trash) WiFi increases the ability of Amtrak Customers to be informed without the green issues of paper and the staff costs of walking round handing them out.

The challenge is to look for elements of the "LD experience" and exploit them. I would focus on things like Sleeper passengers get preferred boarding, more comfortable seats, privacy, soda / juice, (insert what else I can't dream up in two minutes). Living in the past doesn't move you forward, but accentuating the elements of the past that have value and adding customer driven elements does.

My father, god rest his soul, said the only consistency in life is change (he wasn't good at attributing sources) and the Lords of Amtrak have decided that there is ground to be gained, I am assuming primarily with the politicos, by taking these steps. I would challenge them to listen to their LD customers, document their input (survey says) and increase the value of this form of travel. The customer of a higher paid service has to feel "value". We have to create and maintain that.


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## ACS-64

Really all of this stuff is unnecessary, wasteful, and junk!

Cranberry Juice- as many have said it goes to waste as it is now.

Newspapers- welcome to 2014 and the digital age. Go green, use a smartphone and get your news while it's still news and not two days old.

Amenity Kits- bring some of your mini soap/shampoo collection you know we all have from hotel room stays.

Flowers and Vases- in the dining car, stop looking at the cluttered table and instead look out the windows and see America outside the window! The scenery is a lot more spectacular than some stupid flowers.

Astor Chocolate Squares- been cross country and have never seen them once, as others have said, so it's hard to miss something that's never been there.

*Cranberry Juice, Soap, Plants, and invisible chocolate is not going to change my travel habits or opinion of train travel whatsoever! #TrainOn


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## PRR 60

Ispolkom said:


> Isn't the most important line in the notice this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*
> 
> 
> 
> Until I hear something official, I'm taking this to be an April Fools Joke.
Click to expand...

Yep. This has the distinct odor of a hoax.


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## Anderson

I think this may be a trial balloon wrapped in a hoax, if that makes sense. It seems odd for an April Fools' joke to come out in February (some stuff will occasionally slip in late March, but February?), but if someone wanted to trial balloon amenity cuts? If they stick, they stick. If there's a blowup, blame it on a prank.


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## rrdude

Let's hope PRR 60, let's hope!


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## CHamilton

PRR 60 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the most important line in the notice this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*
> 
> 
> 
> Until I hear something official, I'm taking this to be an April Fools Joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep. This has the distinct odor of a hoax.
Click to expand...

It will be easy to tell very soon, since the cranberry juice is listed as going away on February 8 (three days from now) and the flowers on February 15. I think that the "fulfilled on April 1" just means that all of these changes will have happened by then.


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## afigg

Anderson said:


> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, why is Amtrak cutting this when (A) funding was just reauthorized at a sustainable level and (B) they just had what might have been the best quarter in their history?


I suspect the reason for making this move now is tied to the reauthorization bill working its way through the committees in Congress. There may be some poison pill provisions in it for the LD trains and some behind the scenes negotiations going on where Amtrak is offering up several sacrificial items to block easy sound bite attacks in the committee hearings and on TV. "Taxpayers are subsidizing Wine and Cheese receptions! Oh the colossal waste!" Although eliminating flowers on the dining room table is pretty silly as a cost cutting move

Of course, the direct savings from cutting these amenities is trivial compared to the operating costs of the LD trains. The only cuts here that I see as making much of a difference on the trips is the elimination of the Wine and Cheese receptions and free newspapers. For the newspapers, I would think Amtrak would get most of them for free, certainly the USA Today which has been a freebie for hotels for many years.


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## amamba

Ugh, what a shame about all of this. Amtrak isn't luxurious - and I'm not saying it should be - but as others have mentioned, it is little touches like this that make an experience something to write about and rave about. The little touches like a wine and cheese tasting make a 7 hour delay on the EB bearable.

I, personally, will absolutely miss the following:

1. flowers in the dining car

2. cranberry juice in the sleeper - I personally drank at least one or two of these containers during each trip, they go amazingly with the vodka I bring aboard

3. champagne splits

4. amenity kits

5. wine and cheese tasting

The wine and cheese tastings have probably been the highlight of each of my trips that contained one. The one on the LSL was so amazing the last time I rode it. The EB one provides a nice break from the scenery of the high plains, and there is something special about the one on the CS in the PPC.

I will also add that people have always commented how nice the wine and cheese tastings look on my blog.

When I told my H about these changes, he said - and rightly so - that it is perhaps time for us to cease using our AGR card as our primary card and perhaps look to use a different card, because he has no interest in riding LD trains with these amenities cut. In his mind, they made the trip tolerable.


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## afigg

PRR 60 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the most important line in the notice this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*
> 
> 
> 
> Until I hear something official, I'm taking this to be an April Fools Joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep. This has the distinct odor of a hoax.
Click to expand...

No, there was a photo posted on railroad.net last night of the written notice to the train crews. The photo has been taken down as of this morning since it was of an in-house company document which may have legal implications for whoever took the image. The date on the notice was to terminate these services on March 31.


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## tim49424

Most of the things that are being cut are a waste, to me. The only thing I'll miss is the wine and cheese tasting, but having tried it once, it's a been there done that type of thing for me. I'll still have as much fun riding the long distance rails as if these items/services hadn't been cut.


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## mkeroad

I agree that most of these things will not be missed, but, the wine and cheese would be perceived as a first class private social hour that will bring paying customers in for a lifetime. There is money in creature comforts and the feel of being pampered.


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## amamba

For those that have said that you won't miss the amenities, you have to remember that those of us that love trains are not necessarily representative of the general populace.

I stand by my assertion that these small things are actually inexpensive ways of increasing lifetime ROI for amtrak and retaining customers.


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## the_traveler

The wine tasting on the EB and LSL may not increase sales, as except during meals you can not buy the wine. On the LSL as pointed out, it does make the EB delays feel better. On the CS though, you can buy wine at any time. And even in the Dining Car, I have seen more sales of the "tasting" wines. I personally gave purchased that wine for dinner on the train - AND also have purchased some for later!


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## mkeroad

I just looked up a roomette for my 3 longest segments

15 day railpass $450

roomette 3 segments $1,422

I would reconsider the cuts!


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## rrdude

SubwayNut said:


> I _*assume this means the demise of the Pacific Parlour Cars next*_... I can understand the illumination on the Empire Builder, it was clearly something that meant an extremely long day for the staff on that middle day who were serving 3 meals to a very crowded train already.


Not if Amtrak were to solicit Microsoft, Google, Disney, Coke, FaceBook, Apple, (an iPad at every seat!), Cisco, P&G, Go Daddy, Delta, Southwest Airlines.....yada, yada, yada, and solicit them to "sponsor" a car, with the right to paint the PPC any garish color they wish.... Alas, as most on here already know, I'm like ".......Don Quixote, tilting at Windmills............." with this idea.

Where have all the _*really good*_ salespeople gone? Amtrak is calling. (I wish)


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## RalphCT

The wine and cheese events are not just about the wine and cheese. They are a fantastic way for First Class passengers to socialize and enjoy some camaraderie with the sleeping car attendants. At least that is how is has been on the Empire Builder. It's a pleasant way to pass some of the afternoon hours on board the train.

Passing other passengers in the isles of the sleeping cars doesn't quite equal being able to sit down in an informal atmosphere with fellow passengers and enjoy some time together.

As far as those who don't drink—so what. Come anyway and meet some new friends. I've seen more than a few folks attend the wine tasting events who didn't partake in any wine. As I said, these are the things that make First Class travel aboard a train more enjoyable, especially when the adventure of the trip begins with getting on board and not just when you reach your destination.

A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.


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## rrdude

tim54449 said:


> Most of the things that are being cut are a waste, to me. The only thing I'll miss is the wine and cheese tasting, but having tried it once, it's a been there done that type of thing for me. I'll still have as much fun riding the long distance rails as if these items/services hadn't been cut.


I get that these changes are trivial (at best) for some, and egregious to others (me).

Not so much for the service/amenity itself that they are cutting, but the mere fact that Amtrak is _downgrading_ the service.

One could make an argument that if this trend continues, Amtrak might as well just rent out rooms, and ask travelers to bring their own linen or sleeping bags. (just _*think*_ of the savings on bedding, washing, labor, etc.)

I mean really, is an "SP- Automat car" not far in the future, with pax microwaving their own gourmet Stouffers, Lean Cuisine, or other entrees?

In the past Amtrak offered linen tablecloths, flatware, china, and glass glasses.


Now it's disposable and plastic. ("Hey Amtrak, I thought you were "Green", *NOT!*)
In the past Amtrak had a small fleet of "true" lounge cars.


Now it's Amcafes, with tiny windows, tables on one/both ends, Lounge? *NOT.* More like sitting at a Subway or McDonald's. Hell, even McDonald's is re-imaging their stores.
Don't think the Le Pub lounge on the Montealer made a difference? Then I don't think you ever rode that train.
I could go on, but you get my point I hope. Like I said, it's a "race to the bottom" and in the end NO ONE wins.


Not the pax
Not the crew
Not Amtrak


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## afigg

The January, 2014 issue of Amtrak Ink has been posted on the website. Besides parts of the Railway Age interview with Boardman and a 2 page story on commuter rail partners, it has an interview with Mark Murphy, the new General Manager for LD services on page 14. Mr. Murphy started working at Amtrak at 19, so he is not an outsider brought in to run LD trains. The interview has a high buzzword count - strategy map. metrics, vision - but there is one question and response that is relevant to the elimination of the amenities which also implies that more changes are coming:

What is the biggest opportunity for the long-distance services?

"Our current financial situation cries out for innovation. So let’s do that. Nothing should be sacred at this point. We will be looking at the dining car model, service delivery model, employee empowerment, sales and revenue incentives, possible new routes just to name a few. There are a tremendous number of very talented folks with a wealth of good solid business ideas who work for the long-distance business line. Our job as the leadership team is to identify these key men and women, solicit their ideas and determine what it will take to make those ideas work rather than spending so much energy coming up with reasons they won’t."

edit: fixed year for the Ink


----------



## Shanghai

Those changes do not impact me negatively, however, I wonder if there are more "changes"

coming. I would like to know the anticipated savings Amtrak expects from the changes.


----------



## tim49424

rrdude said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the things that are being cut are a waste, to me. The only thing I'll miss is the wine and cheese tasting, but having tried it once, it's a been there done that type of thing for me. I'll still have as much fun riding the long distance rails as if these items/services hadn't been cut.
> 
> 
> 
> I get that these changes are trivial (at best) for some, and egregious to others (me).
> 
> Not so much for the service/amenity itself that they are cutting, but the mere fact that Amtrak is _downgrading_ the service.
> 
> One could make an argument that if this trend continues, Amtrak might as well just rent out rooms, and ask travelers to bring their own linen or sleeping bags. (just _*think*_ of the savings on bedding, washing, labor, etc.)
> 
> I mean really, is an "SP- Automat car" not far in the future, with pax microwaving their own gourmet Stouffers, Lean Cuisine, or other entrees?
> 
> In the past Amtrak offered linen tablecloths, flatware, china, and glass glasses.
> 
> 
> Now it's disposable and plastic. ("Hey Amtrak, I thought you were "Green", *NOT!*)
> In the past Amtrak had a small fleet of "true" lounge cars.
> 
> 
> Now it's Amcafes, with tiny windows, tables on one/both ends, Lounge? *NOT.* More like sitting at a Subway or McDonald's. Hell, even McDonald's is re-imaging their stores.
> Don't think the Le Pub lounge on the Montealer made a difference? Then I don't think you ever rode that train.
> I could go on, but you get my point I hope. Like I said, it's a "race to the bottom" and in the end NO ONE wins.
> 
> 
> Not the pax
> Not the crew
> Not Amtrak
Click to expand...

I don't feel like my service has been downgraded. I'm not into frills and that's what (to me) has been cut. I'm as excited about my future rides on LD trains (I have an upcoming trip in July) as I was yesterday.

I suppose I'm not a typical train fan. I enjoy riding the train because I love the feeling I get. I don't really pay attention to what the consist is (or even understand much about what it is), I don't know many of the OBS names (except an occasional conductor, A/C or SCA), not a big deal if I associate with other passengers or not, I just love the ride. Also, I love watching the trains when not riding them.

OTOH, I can see how this stuff can be a big deal to many and I do feel badly for those of you who feel Amtrak passengers are losing out. I hope you continue riding even though these features are not going to be available.


----------



## Alexandria Nick

Geez, they take away a little flower and people are acting like by this time next year you'll be in a folding chair bolted to the deck of an autorack.


----------



## amamba

Alexandria Nick said:


> Geez, they take away a little flower and people are acting like by this time next year you'll be in a folding chair bolted to the deck of an autorack.


It's not a little flower - its alcohol, mixers, snacks, and the feeling of being pampered.


----------



## VentureForth

Alexandria Nick said:


> Geez, they take away a little flower and people are acting like by this time next year you'll be in a folding chair bolted to the deck of an autorack.


Shhh... Don't give them any ideas! This ain't RyanAir yet...

Seriously, they could PAY for these amenties by charging each sleeper pax $10 more. When you have a $1400 reservation, who is going to notice that it has gone up to $1420?

No word in this memo about newspapers being cut from Business Class services in the East.

I thought that the wine and cheese was donated to the Coast Starlight by the State of California as "advertising". Maybe I thought that in a dream or something. If not, why couldn't it be?

It seems to me that long distance sleeper riders are willing to pay more and more and more as the rooms continue to get sold out relatively frequently. I hate to say something that would price me out of a sleeper, but the price needs to keep going up until they don't sell rooms any more. Let demand set the prices - increase the demand by offering low cost amenities that MORE than compensate for the increased cost.


----------



## rrdude

Alexandria Nick said:


> Geez, they take away a little flower and people are acting like by this time next year you'll be in a folding chair bolted to the deck of an autorack.


Nick, I could give a sh#% about the flower myself, I'm simply trying to point out that when "John Q Public" rides, and pays big $$$ for a sleeper, it's the little things that these travelers remember. Maybe not the 19 year old, or even the 20-something, but many people do. I've been in the hospitality industry for over 40 years, so I've heard first hand how "little things" become THEE focal point, when a guest or in Amtrak's case, a passenger, re-tells the events of their experience.

The "race-to-the-bottom" is a convoluted attempt to try and save money, and it usually ends up costing money, thru lower bookings, negative reviews, cancellations, etc.


----------



## montana mike

If this was to be a "hoax" it is well planned indeed. All of the Amtrak employees were talking about this on my last Empire Builder experience (to a person they were both saddened and dismayed).

I look at things this way. Sure some of our Forum members could care less about the W&C or a newspaper or a little bottle of Champagne, but we are slowly taking away the things that really differentiates what "First Class" train travel is and was all about. If one wants to get somewhere quickly these days it's hop on an "airbus", squeeze into 19" wide seats for 2-4 hours with little or no offerings to pass the time and you are at your destination. I still look at the train as the journey itself, with excellent attention and service my the attendant, the varied food options in the diner (yes, complete with a fresh flower at each table--most people do notice this), a morning newspaper (perhaps also served with a Mimosa or a glass of my favorite juice), the little chocolate square is indeed superfluous, but still a very nice touch if done right-and many attendants do make an effort to do so. The wine and Cheese really isn't about the wine and cheese at all-yes, for those of us who enjoy these etchings it's fine, but rather it's all about the people you meet, the fun you have and a great way to pass the time. (A suggestion could have been to offer sparkling cider to those who do not drink wine-I had made that suggestion a while back).

When we start stripping away even those little things that really can make a difference in a journey or an experience where does it indeed end? Perhaps we will be making our own beds and have to bring pillows ourselves before long? I wonder how much longer the hot coffee/tea option will be available?

I am intrigued about having various states or entities sponsor certain aspects of the journey--why not! This could be done tastefully and with good positive effect.

I also would think that if a First Class passenger is forking over $1500 for a RT ticket on an Amtrak Sleeper and extra $20 or even $40 would indeed not be a factor in any way when deciding to travel by rail.

Just my thoughts. If these amenities do indeed disappear--C'est La Vie', but this would mark a precedent that will likely not be the final word.......


----------



## penfrydd

I'm in the camp that says all these amenities did give the perception to folks that a train ride was something special. Any basic motivation textbook would tell you that price is not the only motivator. The perception of a "special ride" lasts far longer than anything else.

I would have gladly paid an extra $10 or whatever for a ticket than give them up. And I, for one, like a newspaper when I'm on a long trip; even if it's McNews from USA Today.


----------



## OBS

Ispolkom said:


> Isn't the most important line in the notice this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*
> 
> 
> 
> Until I hear something official, I'm taking this to be an April Fools Joke.
Click to expand...

The fulfilled date is coincidental. All service standards notices, issued by Amtrak, have that sentence and a date posted at the bottom of the memo. The memo's also have contact names and numbers at the top, which were (appropriately) deleted by the OP. No doubt in my mind this is real.


----------



## Wise_One

rickycourtney said:


> *Wine & Cheese Receptions - Effective March 31, 2014*Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> Lake Shore Ltd.
Click to expand...

While I don't drink much wine like others have mentioned, I am indeed an exception and I will now publically admit it, I do like cheese.

However, I do like the Receptions for the opportunity to socialize with some other passengers. Such offers a good reason to get out of our tiny little closets rooms, for at least a little while.



rickycourtney said:


> Orange and Apple will continue to be offered
> Dining car will continue to offer Cranberry Juice
Click to expand...

I never had any cranberry juice. I have never even noticed it being offered in my sleeper.

However, I strongly feel that it is being incredibly selfish to say that because you don't like it, that you support deigning it to others who do enjoy cranberry juice.



rickycourtney said:


> *Complimentary Newspapers - Effective Date TBA. *Research is underway regarding existing contracts in place with current vendors
Click to expand...

It was pretty rare to get a newspaper. I attributed such to my trains always running late and because of that, the train would not reach the station where the papers are loaded until too late. I guess the station we were suppose to reach at 6am, and the morning newspapers loaded to be ready for morning coffee, didn't actually happen until like 11am.


----------



## VentureForth

Dear Mr. Boardman,

Food & Beverage/Operations Support Notice FSN 14-02 has recently come to the public attention. Whether this notice is real or a hoax is yet to be determined. That determination, however, is irrelevant to the context of Amtrak's past and continuing cutbacks as they strive in vain towards reaching the Congressionaly mandated goal to be self sufficient.

For over 100 years, the government of the United States was self sufficient. It received revenue for services rendered. In the early years of the previous century, it was determined that the United States government could no longer be self sufficient and it has since relied on the subsidies received by the general population - our taxpayers.

To demand Amtrak be self sufficient is not so much an impossible request as much as it is hypocracy from a government that is notorious for wasting more money in other countries than the paltry sum Amtrak receives in benefits.

That being all said, however, is no excuse for Amtrak to not try and increase revenue to a point where it exceeds expenses.

I'm just an average joe tax paying citizen. But it's pretty obvious that Amtrak has already cut expenses to almost the bare minimum. Yet the subsidies continue to be relatively stable, wavering around $1 Billion per year.

Nobody want to see the price of their beloved amenity increase. I, for one, was rather upset that the cost of a candy bar just went up in the vending machine at work from $.95 to $1.10. Yes - initially I rebuke the change and resist the 15% increase in cost. But eventually, I realize that if I want that candy bar right then and there, I gotta shell out the $1.10.

When real money is being spent, though, real services are expected in return. I don't mind paying more for first class sleeper accomodations if I get a first class experience. But if I'm going to shell out, say, $1000 more for a horizontal sleeping surface, I would think that the $10 in amenities from a small kit to a tiny split of champaigne and a $1 newspaper could be covered by my extraordinary increase in price. When it looks like my $1000 is going to subsidize portions of Amtrak that I'll never see or experience, I might as well spend that cash on an airplane and get to my 5 star hotel quicker. Obviously, all rail fare and "sell ups" are going to pay for more than what we see on Amtrak. As sleeper passengers we already deal with broken or ineffective personal service units in the roomettes and bedrooms (ie: air control, lack of entertainment or volume control, etc). When the little cheap stuff is eliminated, though, our perception of what we pay for is greatly diminished.

Back to my candy bar example. If they keep raising my candy bar prices to much more than what I can buy them for from my local Wal Mart, it will come to a point where I will buy my products at a cheaper price at the cost of convenience. Similarily, if I can't get first class amenities when I pay a first class price, why pay for it any more?

I encourage Amtrak to continue to find new and innovative ways to increase revenue - not cut costs where it directly affects customers.

Best Regards.


----------



## VentureForth

Note: They shouldn't get rid of the wine/champaign in the West until they get rid of the free booze on Acela.


----------



## nferr

Ehhh. Much ado about nothing. Most of the time the table vases have a little sprig of artificial flowers in them from my experience. So that's what you'll see IMO. People want to drink? Pay for it. I don't drink so why should all the sleeper passengers pay for it. I'm sure if those wine and cheese parties were profitable they wouldn't be eliminated. The only thing I like that's being cut is the newspaper. And since the sleepers are running pretty much full all the time anyway all the gloom and doom nonsense is silly.


----------



## montana mike

I just wish I would have been able to spend just a few hours in front of whomever at Amtrak does their marketing. I own a marketing firm and have spent over 25 years in this business and this approach is something that will not achieve their objective-period. I could rattle off a litany of firms that decided to "go cheap" to save a few bucks and just about everyone is on the trash heap of failed enterprises.

I can give one example of paying attention to the "little details" pays off-big time--one word: APPLE. My firm is a "Mac house", as most marketing firms are, and one of the main reasons why we stay with Apple products is not because they are cheap--they are not, in fact they are more expensive than most other options. But we stay because of Apple's amazing attention to all the details of not just the sale, but the superior performance of their products and their service. The very few times we have had any issues with our equipment their CS people were prompt, professional and fast in rectifying the issue. The old adage of you get what you pay for is still true-whether it is a train ride or a smartphone!


----------



## rrdude

VentureForth said:


> Note: They shouldn't get rid of the wine/champaign in the West until they get rid of the free booze on Acela.


Shhhhhhhhh!

[SIZE=10pt]Joe Boardman 5 February 2014[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]President, Amtrak[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]50 Massachusetts Avenue[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Washington, DC 20002[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Dear Mr. Boardman:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] It has come to my attention that very soon, Amtrak intends to eliminate or cut several “amenities” on certain long-distance trains. As a semi-frequent business traveler, and a frequent family-vacation traveler, I would like to express my displeasure with this plan.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] I am a former OBS employee myself, though many, many, years removed. I am fortunate enough to have met several of your predecessors, and have been an ardent Amtrak supporter, NARP member, and, truth-be-told, critic, for the last 40 years or so.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] The cuts I am talking about, on the surface, really seem rather trivial in nature. But taken in the larger context of things, seem to be part of Amtrak’s “race-to-the-bottom” when it comes to providing service for sleeping car passengers. The elimination of wine & cheese receptions/tastings on a few trains, the elimination of daily newspapers, the elimination of the amenity bags on selected trains, and the elimination of fresh-cut flowers on the table in the dining car are a few of the specific planned changes I am referring to.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] In the greater scheme of things, topics which you and your board concern yourself with on a daily basis, (funding, service cuts, work rules, funding, congressional report cards, funding………..) are vitally more important to the overall operation of Amtrak.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] However, having spent the better part of my adult life and career in the hospitality field, I’ve become an avid believer in many of J.W. Marriott’s beliefs that it’s often the “small things” that can make or break a guest’s experience. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] While there are many within Amtrak, and many among the legions of Amtrak’s “fans”, that view changes such as this as trivial, and “no big thing”, I am more concerned as how the elimination of these very inexpensive amenities will impact the “John & Jane Q. Public” Amtrak travelers. The travelers who try Amtrak for the first time, and decide to either come back, or not.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] I worked onboard during the first congressionally mandated “modified meal service” cuts back in the 1980’s. I experienced first-hand the negative public reaction to the elimination of food freshly prepared on board, and served on china, with linen, glassware, and flatware. I, along with many other LSA’s at the time, purchased carnations with our own money on the way to report for work at the Chicago Crew Base. I couldn’t with good conscious provide meal service to extra-fare paying passengers, without having a flower on the table.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] Trivial, I know. But it’s just one more thing that passengers _remember._ Think about dining experiences that you personally have had, where maybe the food itself was sub-par or average, but the _service and attention_ that you received during your dining _experience _was off-the-chart great, and made you _remember_ that experience.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] That’s what the chocolates, wine tastings, amenities bag, and flower-on-the table, contribute to the Amtrak overall travel experience.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] These services should be *expanded* to all LD trains, _not_ removed from the few that still offer them. But that’s another story…………[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] Thank you for taking time to read this. Overall, I firmly believe you are doing a fantastic job, in an often thankless, and frustrating position. Know that W. Graham Claytor most likely agrees with me![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Sincerely,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Jerry B. Pilcher[/SIZE]


----------



## Walt

RalphCT said:


> The wine and cheese events are not just about the wine and cheese. They are a fantastic way for First Class passengers to socialize and enjoy some camaraderie with the sleeping car attendants. At least that is how is has been on the Empire Builder. It's a pleasant way to pass some of the afternoon hours on board the train.
> 
> Passing other passengers in the isles of the sleeping cars doesn't quite equal being able to sit down in an informal atmosphere with fellow passengers and enjoy some time together.
> 
> As far as those who don't drink—so what. Come anyway and meet some new friends. I've seen more than a few folks attend the wine tasting events who didn't partake in any wine. As I said, these are the things that make First Class travel aboard a train more enjoyable, especially when the adventure of the trip begins with getting on board and not just when you reach your destination.


Very well put!


----------



## Railroad Bill

rrdude said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Note: They shouldn't get rid of the wine/champaign in the West until they get rid of the free booze on Acela.
> 
> 
> 
> Shhhhhhhhh!
> 
> [SIZE=10pt]Joe Boardman 5 February 2014[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt]President, Amtrak[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt]50 Massachusetts Avenue[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt]Washington, DC 20002[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt]Dear Mr. Boardman:[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] It has come to my attention that very soon, Amtrak intends to eliminate or cut several “amenities” on certain long-distance trains. As a semi-frequent business traveler, and a frequent family-vacation traveler, I would like to express my displeasure with this plan.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] I am a former OBS employee myself, though many, many, years removed. I am fortunate enough to have met several of your predecessors, and have been an ardent Amtrak supporter, NARP member, and, truth-be-told, critic, for the last 40 years or so.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] The cuts I am talking about, on the surface, really seem rather trivial in nature. But taken in the larger context of things, seem to be part of Amtrak’s “race-to-the-bottom” when it comes to providing service for sleeping car passengers. The elimination of wine & cheese receptions/tastings on a few trains, the elimination of daily newspapers, the elimination of the amenity bags on selected trains, and the elimination of fresh-cut flowers on the table in the dining car are a few of the specific planned changes I am referring to.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] In the greater scheme of things, topics which you and your board concern yourself with on a daily basis, (funding, service cuts, work rules, funding, congressional report cards, funding………..) are vitally more important to the overall operation of Amtrak.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] However, having spent the better part of my adult life and career in the hospitality field, I’ve become an avid believer in many of J.W. Marriott’s beliefs that it’s often the “small things” that can make or break a guest’s experience. [/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] While there are many within Amtrak, and many among the legions of Amtrak’s “fans”, that view changes such as this as trivial, and “no big thing”, I am more concerned as how the elimination of these very inexpensive amenities will impact the “John & Jane Q. Public” Amtrak travelers. The travelers who try Amtrak for the first time, and decide to either come back, or not.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] I worked onboard during the first congressionally mandated “modified meal service” cuts back in the 1980’s. I experienced first-hand the negative public reaction to the elimination of food freshly prepared on board, and served on china, with linen, glassware, and flatware. I, along with many other LSA’s at the time, purchased carnations with our own money on the way to report for work at the Chicago Crew Base. I couldn’t with good conscious provide meal service to extra-fare paying passengers, without having a flower on the table.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] Trivial, I know. But it’s just one more thing that passengers _remember._ Think about dining experiences that you personally have had, where maybe the food itself was sub-par or average, but the _service and attention_ that you received during your dining _experience _was off-the-chart great, and made you _remember_ that experience.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] That’s what the chocolates, wine tastings, amenities bag, and flower-on-the table, contribute to the Amtrak overall travel experience.[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt] These services should be *expanded* to all LD trains, _not_ removed from the few that still offer them. But that’s another story…………[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt]  Thank you for taking time to read this. Overall, I firmly believe you are doing a fantastic job, in an often thankless, and frustrating position. Know that W. Graham Claytor most likely agrees with me![/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt]Sincerely,[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10pt]Jerry B. Pilcher[/SIZE]
Click to expand...

Jerry,

An excellent letter that focuses on the real problem with this amenity cuts. Where can we sign our names?


----------



## D.P. Roberts

I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. Personally, I don't care about the particular amenities being cut, but I agree that getting "something" extra for the enormous cost makes the trip feel more special.

On the other hand(s):

1) I've ridden the CS & EB & several other western trains numerous times, and have received an amenity kit exactly ONCE. Since I can't rely on it, I have to bring my own shampoo, etc. anyway, thus defeating the purpose of even offering the kit, at least for me. As others have said, "under promise and over deliver", and the lack of this kit was just a frustration. I do wonder whether Amtrak could strike a deal with a soap/shampoo company to give out samples of the amenity kit for free.

2) Chocolates? Not only have I never received chocolates, I've never even heard that I was supposed to get them.

3) In my experience, the flower vases in the dining car were filled with pens attached to fake flowers. You use the pen to fill out your dining ticket. Works for me.

4) Are there any sleeper car amenities left? The only things I can think of are bottled water and coffee. They're not getting rid of those, are they?


----------



## SarahZ

D.P. Roberts said:


> 4) Are there any sleeper car amenities left? The only things I can think of are bottled water and coffee. They're not getting rid of those, are they?


No, and they're keeping the apple and orange juice.


----------



## reefgeek

I'm sorry to see all of this go too, although as others have pointed out, many of these things were implemented in a haphazard manner (What's this? A bag with shampoo? What a surprise!). Everybody in business has heard the story of the guy who eliminated the olive in the airline salads and saved American a million dollars yadda yadda, but look at the airline coach foodservice now! It is a race to the bottom. I could see the coffeemakers and juice going next.

I like the newspaper when it's not USA Today, but I'm old fashioned. I sometimes run into the station to buy one if none has been provided or it's USA Today, that's certainly doable.

One thing I take issue with is the elimination of the "wine and cheese reception" on the eastbound Lakeshore Ltd. There's no other food served that evening, I thought it was kind of to make up for the lack of dinner, and the experience is more of a cocktail party than wine appreciation class!

I don't know who's been eating the chocolate squares. Never seen one.


----------



## Anderson

I've had one or two of the squares. They were a nice surprise, but I was genuinely surprised by them. I want to say they were an experiment in the last few years that just didn't pan out in terms of adding value to the experience.

I can get behind the letter in question, but given the wave of folks mentioning how erratic the amenities (other than the wine and cheese tasting) have been, I'm tempted to blame erratic implementation for them ending up on the block.


----------



## tim49424

reefgeek said:


> I don't know who's been eating the chocolate squares. Never seen one.



The ones I've had were provided when the bed was turned down for the night, somewhat like what I've heard about a five-star hotel providing. They were not given out very consistently, probably about 50% of the nights I've been in a sleeper. This was in the Portland sleepers on the Empire Builder.


----------



## RalphCT

D.P. Roberts said:


> 4) Are there any sleeper car amenities left? The only things I can think of are bottled water and coffee. They're not getting rid of those, are they?


Amenities when traveling in a sleeping car that I've experienced in the past on the Empire Builder, not necessarily in any particular order:Coffee, water, juice (cranberry, Apple, orange)

Actual cloth washcloths

Hot Showers with soap and a nice towel

Champagne upon boarding (sort of like a toast to the new adventure)

A chocolate Square on the bed when it is made up for the evening

Morning newspaper

Fresh Flowers in a vase in the upper level washroom

Assistance with luggage by the attendant

Other assistance and service by a pleasant sleeping car attendant

Meals in the Dining Car served on china by friendly and fun staff and linen table cloth (diner only)

Wine and Cheese event in the afternoon

Okay what did I miss?

A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.


----------



## Blackwolf

I will be drafting a letter, as has been done in the past with previous issues, and sending copies along to the appropriate places.

In true YMMV style, I've both received _all_ the amenities being cut on a single trip, and none of them at all.


When received as advertised, the small "little touches" part goes a long ways. As was experienced on a cold, nasty, sleet-plagued night in Buffalo where the west-bound LSL was living up to its not-so-nice nickname being over an hour behind schedule, those tiny additions went a long way to making what had been a not so nice experience a full recovery. Things like, asking the sleeping car passengers (all of which were booked into the NY sleepers) to wait inside the station where it was warm while the coach passengers loaded, and then to double-spot the train so that the sleeper car vestibule was lined up with the small shelter awning to keep us from the weather as much as possible. To have a smiling SCA welcome us aboard by name, and have our bedroom made up with an extra blanket on the bed, two chocolates on the pillows, a small card with her name on it nested between them, and a carnation beside it all. She asked us before turning in if we would desire a wake-up knock in the morning, and while not a 'reservation', a preferred time for breakfast in the Dining Car if we'd not instead like it taken in our room.


Alternately, having the reverse happen is a good way to have a sour taste left in your mouth. Having the PPC be bad-orderd and get a CCC instead. The wine-and-cheese tasting be cancelled because the PPC had been loaded with the supplies before going bad and was left in Seattle. No amenity kit in the room, because the commissary had neglected to load them, which happened to coincide with the one time I was actually needing to use it. A broken heater knob in the bedroom, making it unbearably hot since it would not turn off. And the surly SCA who only appeared to load us up in Portland, and then to promptly kick us off at 4:30 AM because the train was early into Sacramento and would not allow us to sleep in until the actual listed arrival time.
So, yes. Small potatoes to some, but really an important little perk here and there for full-fare paying First Class passengers. I, for one, happen to think service trumps all else. When you no longer have service standards as your signature, all that is left is functionability. And we know that, when it comes to functioning (OTP, good-state-of-repair equipment, fast transportation, reliability, etc) Amtrak has been troubled since 1971.


----------



## brentrain17

They can't take away the scenery


----------



## montana mike

With no windows they can--this would save money by eliminating the need to replace windows-which they do on a regular basis! I have flown in many military transport aircraft over the years--some for up to 12 hours. And NO windows on any of them. Makes an already long trip really long!!

I am being somewhat tongue in cheek here, but the point is valid, Amtrak's "bean counters" could indeed get to the point that it is cost, cost, cost above all else with NO regard to the customer's experience at all. This is pretty much what the domestic airline experience is now.

:-(


----------



## tim49424

brentrain17 said:


> They can't take away the scenery



Absolutely and positively THIS.


----------



## Aaron

RalphCT said:


> As far as those who don't drink—so what. Come anyway and meet some new friends. I've seen more than a few folks attend the wine tasting events who didn't partake in any wine. As I said, these are the things that make First Class travel aboard a train more enjoyable, especially when the adventure of the trip begins with getting on board and not just when you reach your destination.


I was specifically disallowed on my last trip. I like cheese and wanted to see what it was like, so I asked if they'd be providing any non-alcoholic beverages. I was told that the wine tastings are usually full, and if I wasn't there for the wine tasting, I couldn't come because I'd be taking up a spot that someone else who did want wine could use. I was disappointed, but I can't really disagree with that logic.


----------



## montana mike

RalphCT said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4) Are there any sleeper car amenities left? The only things I can think of are bottled water and coffee. They're not getting rid of those, are they?
> 
> 
> 
> Amenities when traveling in a sleeping car that I've experienced in the past on the Empire Builder, not necessarily in any particular order:Coffee, water, juice (cranberry, Apple, orange)
> 
> Actual cloth washcloths
> 
> Hot Showers with soap and a nice towel
> 
> Champagne upon boarding (sort of like a toast to the new adventure)
> 
> A chocolate Square on the bed when it is made up for the evening
> 
> Morning newspaper
> 
> Fresh Flowers in a vase in the upper level washroom
> 
> Assistance with luggage by the attendant
> 
> Other assistance and service by a pleasant sleeping car attendant
> 
> Meals in the Dining Car served on china by friendly and fun staff and linen table cloth (diner only)
> 
> Wine and Cheese event in the afternoon
> 
> Okay what did I miss?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.
Click to expand...

The little amenity pouch containing soap, shampoo and lotion!


----------



## yarrow

RalphCT said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4) Are there any sleeper car amenities left? The only things I can think of are bottled water and coffee. They're not getting rid of those, are they?
> 
> 
> 
> Amenities when traveling in a sleeping car that I've experienced in the past on the Empire Builder, not necessarily in any particular order:Coffee, water, juice (cranberry, Apple, orange)
> 
> Actual cloth washcloths
> 
> Hot Showers with soap and a nice towel
> 
> Champagne upon boarding (sort of like a toast to the new adventure)
> 
> A chocolate Square on the bed when it is made up for the evening
> 
> Morning newspaper
> 
> Fresh Flowers in a vase in the upper level washroom
> 
> Assistance with luggage by the attendant
> 
> Other assistance and service by a pleasant sleeping car attendant
> 
> Meals in the Dining Car served on china by friendly and fun staff and linen table cloth (diner only)
> 
> Wine and Cheese event in the afternoon
> 
> Okay what did I miss?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.
Click to expand...

a few years ago, for a few trips we took on the eb, in the evening the sca would bring to each person in each room a bag containing 2 big, warm freshly baked chocolate chip cookies. i agree with some posts above about small things being memorable and adding up to repeat business for amtrak. just as a check on my senility, does anyone else remember the warm cookies on the eb?


----------



## Aaron

Alexandria Nick said:


> Geez, they take away a little flower and people are acting like by this time next year you'll be in a folding chair bolted to the deck of an autorack.


I've seen another scanned document floating around detailing a plan being implemented in 2016 to replace the folding chair with an upside down plastic bucket.


----------



## VentureForth

tim54449 said:


> brentrain17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can't take away the scenery
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely and positively THIS.
Click to expand...

Really? I think they take quite a bit of scenery away. Often the windows are dingy or crazed and enjoying the scenery can be quite difficult.

Speaking of which - do they still wash the windows in ABQ?


----------



## rrdude

montana mike said:


> With no windows they can--this would save money by eliminating the need to replace windows-which they do on a regular basis! I have flown in many military transport aircraft over the years--some for up to 12 hours. And NO windows on any of them. Makes an already long trip really long!!
> 
> I am being somewhat tongue in cheek here, but the point is valid, Amtrak's "bean counters" could indeed get to the point that it is cost, cost, cost above all else with NO regard to the customer's experience at all. This is pretty much what the domestic airline experience is now.
> 
> :-(


AmCans have windows? Gimmie a Talgo or Chinese railway window any day. Remember the first AmCans? It was even worse than today.


----------



## montana mike

Aaron said:


> RalphCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as those who don't drink—so what. Come anyway and meet some new friends. I've seen more than a few folks attend the wine tasting events who didn't partake in any wine. As I said, these are the things that make First Class travel aboard a train more enjoyable, especially when the adventure of the trip begins with getting on board and not just when you reach your destination.
> 
> 
> 
> I was specifically disallowed on my last trip. I like cheese and wanted to see what it was like, so I asked if they'd be providing any non-alcoholic beverages. I was told that the wine tastings are usually full, and if I wasn't there for the wine tasting, I couldn't come because I'd be taking up a spot that someone else who did want wine could use. I was disappointed, but I can't really disagree with that logic.
Click to expand...

Ah, this is an example of an organization that just doesn't "Get It!!". Can you imagine a firm that is truly in the business of taking care of customers well-like Disney, The Ritz Carlton or LL Bean being so rigid and uncaring? Not!!! Since I have enjoyed literally dozens and dozens of these W&C events there have been a small number of people who enjoyed the "cheese and crackers" but chose to just sip water instead of the wine. None of the Attendants minded at all at these events. I guess it was the luck of the draw (or lack thereof) for you--bummer......


----------



## montana mike

yarrow said:


> RalphCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4) Are there any sleeper car amenities left? The only things I can think of are bottled water and coffee. They're not getting rid of those, are they?
> 
> 
> 
> Amenities when traveling in a sleeping car that I've experienced in the past on the Empire Builder, not necessarily in any particular order:Coffee, water, juice (cranberry, Apple, orange)
> 
> Actual cloth washcloths
> 
> Hot Showers with soap and a nice towel
> 
> Champagne upon boarding (sort of like a toast to the new adventure)
> 
> A chocolate Square on the bed when it is made up for the evening
> 
> Morning newspaper
> 
> Fresh Flowers in a vase in the upper level washroom
> 
> Assistance with luggage by the attendant
> 
> Other assistance and service by a pleasant sleeping car attendant
> 
> Meals in the Dining Car served on china by friendly and fun staff and linen table cloth (diner only)
> 
> Wine and Cheese event in the afternoon
> 
> Okay what did I miss?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> a few years ago, for a few trips we took on the eb, in the evening the sca would bring to each person in each room a bag containing 2 big, warm freshly baked chocolate chip cookies. i agree with some posts above about small things being memorable and adding up to repeat business for amtrak. just as a check on my senility, does anyone else remember the warm cookies on the eb?
Click to expand...

Yes, I also remember the cookies--sorry to see those disappear a while back as well.


----------



## tim49424

yarrow said:


> RalphCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4) Are there any sleeper car amenities left? The only things I can think of are bottled water and coffee. They're not getting rid of those, are they?
> 
> 
> 
> Amenities when traveling in a sleeping car that I've experienced in the past on the Empire Builder, not necessarily in any particular order:Coffee, water, juice (cranberry, Apple, orange)
> 
> Actual cloth washcloths
> 
> Hot Showers with soap and a nice towel
> 
> Champagne upon boarding (sort of like a toast to the new adventure)
> 
> A chocolate Square on the bed when it is made up for the evening
> 
> Morning newspaper
> 
> Fresh Flowers in a vase in the upper level washroom
> 
> Assistance with luggage by the attendant
> 
> Other assistance and service by a pleasant sleeping car attendant
> 
> Meals in the Dining Car served on china by friendly and fun staff and linen table cloth (diner only)
> 
> Wine and Cheese event in the afternoon
> 
> Okay what did I miss?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys trail travel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> a few years ago, for a few trips we took on the eb, in the evening the sca would bring to each person in each room a bag containing 2 big, warm freshly baked chocolate chip cookies. i agree with some posts above about small things being memorable and adding up to repeat business for amtrak. just as a check on my senility, does anyone else remember the warm cookies on the eb?
Click to expand...

Not had cookies before, but I've only made two round-trips.



VentureForth said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brentrain17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can't take away the scenery
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely and positively THIS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? I think they take quite a bit of scenery away. Often the windows are dingy or crazed and enjoying the scenery can be quite difficult.
> 
> Speaking of which - do they still wash the windows in ABQ?
Click to expand...

Never experienced windows so bad that the scenery was skewed or difficult to see from the sleepers. Coach, yes, but I've seen everything there is on the route I used to take riding in coach....did that two dozen times, so looking out the window didn't matter to me. If at some time, it does happen that the window in my room isn't clean, there is always the sightseer lounge.


----------



## Ryan

montana mike said:


> Aaron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RalphCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as those who don't drink—so what. Come anyway and meet some new friends. I've seen more than a few folks attend the wine tasting events who didn't partake in any wine. As I said, these are the things that make First Class travel aboard a train more enjoyable, especially when the adventure of the trip begins with getting on board and not just when you reach your destination.
> 
> 
> 
> I was specifically disallowed on my last trip. I like cheese and wanted to see what it was like, so I asked if they'd be providing any non-alcoholic beverages. I was told that the wine tastings are usually full, and if I wasn't there for the wine tasting, I couldn't come because I'd be taking up a spot that someone else who did want wine could use. I was disappointed, but I can't really disagree with that logic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah, this is an example of an organization that just doesn't "Get It!!". Can you imagine a firm that is truly in the business of taking care of customers well-like Disney, The Ritz Carlton or LL Bean being so rigid and uncaring? Not!!! Since I have enjoyed literally dozens and dozens of these W&C events there have been a small number of people who enjoyed the "cheese and crackers" but chose to just sip water instead of the wine. None of the Attendants minded at all at these events. I guess it was the luck of the draw (or lack thereof) for you--bummer......
Click to expand...

It's all a matter of perspective. If I'm the customer that gets to attend the wine tasting, I'm pretty pleased to have not been shut out of the event by someone there that's not participating and just taking up space.


----------



## caravanman

The front page of amtraktrains.com has a picture of flowers in a vase, maybe now the page should be re-vamped... I vote for something exciting and interesting, rather than the very staid present offering!

Ed


----------



## Aaron

reefgeek said:


> Everybody in business has heard the story of the guy who eliminated the olive in the airline salads and saved American a million dollars yadda yadda, but look at the airline coach foodservice now! It is a race to the bottom.


Leaving aside the questions of the truth or amount of actual savings in the olive story (debated here), a useful counterpoint to that story is Bob Farrell's "Pickle Principle", teaching his employees to not get hung up on disappointing customers with little piddly things like the cost of an extra pickle and just "give 'em the pickle". The principle is that the bad impression given by the argument over the price of the pickle is way more costly to the bottom line over the long run than just giving them the pickle. It costs virtually nothing in the grand scheme of things, and leaves a much better impression in the minds of customers.

As an aside, the first time that I realized that "consultants" in my industry were worthless was a convention where in the same day, two different "consultant" speakers gave the exact opposite advice in telling us the best way to treat our customers. One based her whole talk on the olive story, the other based his entire talk on the pickle story. The only thing I took home from that convention is that it was vitally important to be constantly concerned about which garnish to provide to which person when.


----------



## benale

I will miss the wine and cheese tastings. Those afternoon tastings truly made long distance train travel special. I hope the PPC isn't discontinued. I'm gathering points this year for a round trip cross country trip in a roomette for sometime next year.I hope there are no other amenities dropped in the future I can't think of any others.Hopefully meals will still be offered as part of the sleeper fare.


----------



## SarahZ

I'm going to play Devi's Advocate here, but why is everyone fuming about losing champagne, chocolate, and amenity bags on the EB and CS, but nobody seems to care that those things _aren't_ available on the other LD routes? People keep talking about the "first class experience" as if it extends to all trains, but the other trains don't have those items.

I suppose that's why this isn't a huge deal to me. I'm not accustomed to any of those things, other than the flowers, and those are just decor.

I don't see it as a "slippery slope", since this isn't system-wide. The EB and CS will simply match the SWC, CZ, and other LD trains. We've been slumming it for years. 

I will still enjoy having a private room with a call button to summon the SCA, a bed to sleep in, delicious meals in the dining car, and a shower with complimentary towels and washcloths. Maybe I'm a heathen, but that, to me, is still first class service.

It occurs to me that I may be too easy-going and not prone to panic about little things that may be bigger in the grand scheme, but such is life.


----------



## Ryan

Aaron said:


> reefgeek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody in business has heard the story of the guy who eliminated the olive in the airline salads and saved American a million dollars yadda yadda, but look at the airline coach foodservice now! It is a race to the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving aside the questions of the truth or amount of actual savings in the olive story (debated here), a useful counterpoint to that story is Bob Farrell's "Pickle Principle", teaching his employees to not get hung up on disappointing customers with little piddly things like the cost of an extra pickle and just "give 'em the pickle". The principle is that the bad impression given by the argument over the price of the pickle is way more costly to the bottom line over the long run than just giving them the pickle. It costs virtually nothing in the grand scheme of things, and leaves a much better impression in the minds of customers.
> 
> As an aside, the first time that I realized that "consultants" in my industry were worthless was a convention where in the same day, two different "consultant" speakers gave the exact opposite advice in telling us the best way to treat our customers. One based her whole talk on the olive story, the other based his entire talk on the pickle story. The only thing I took home from that convention is that it was vitally important to be constantly concerned about which garnish to provide to which person when.
Click to expand...

My takeaway from that is to not sweat the small stuff - the more important thing is that the underlying product is fundamentally sound. If the product is fundamentally sound, nobody is going to miss the olive and live will go on. But if it isn't, and your business depends on not having excess pickle costs for the handful of people that ask for them, then you're screwed - something is going to come along and do you in, it's just a matter of time.
Applied to Amtrak, if we had things like great on time percentage, well maintained equipment (and plenty of it!) and a consistently friendly and top notch staff, things like this wouldn't be an issue. But we don't, and thus they are.


----------



## tim49424

SarahZ said:


> I'm going to play Devi's Advocate here, but why is everyone fuming about losing champagne, chocolate, and amenity bags on the EB and CS, but nobody seems to care that those things _aren't_ available on the other LD routes? People keep talking about the "first class experience" as if it extends to all trains, but the other trains don't have those items.
> 
> I suppose that's why this isn't a huge deal to me. I'm not accustomed to any of those things, other than the flowers, and those are just decor.
> 
> I don't see it as a "slippery slope", since this isn't system-wide. The EB and CS will simply match the SWC, CZ, and other LD trains. We've been slumming it for years.
> 
> I will still enjoy having a private room with a call button to summon the SCA, a bed to sleep in, delicious meals in the dining car, and a shower with complimentary towels and washcloths. Maybe I'm a heathen, but that, to me, is still first class service.



Agreed 100% Sarah. I couldn't have said it any better.

Even though I've received many of the "extras" that won't be available any more, I don't expect, need or necessarily even want them, as I've stated previously. I'll still feel like I'll get my complete money's worth (and more) on LD trips.


----------



## SarahZ

I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative. It's so hard to convey tone through text.


----------



## montana mike

Did you ever experience real first class train experiences either in Europe or here many years ago? It was truly remarkable. There are but a few left.

This does indeed appear to be a race to the bottom. The MOST successful operations in the world--In ANY business--go above and beyond the "expected" or the "average". While people do accept "average" they remember "exceptional". For example: I try to stay at certain lodging properties around North America when I can because of my exceptional experiences at them, not because they were average. Life is indeed a journey. If you don't "go for the gusto" and try to be the very best and enjoy it to the fullest at the end what have you achieved?

It is indeed sad that Amtrak has given up on trying to be that "exceptional" experience. I know they fumbled the ball a lot, but at least in some instances they genuinely tried. Clearly now that will not be the case going forward. Sad to see.......


----------



## rrdude

Yup, I'm packing my travel pillow, NorthFace sleeping bag, windex wipes (for the windows Amtrak rarely cleans anymore) camp stove, and freeze dried food. Wait, that's what I needed 40 years ago when I traveled in coach on the Ferrocarril Nacional de México. (It was like _living_ a National Geographic movie) Maybe Amtrak is trying to emulate Mexico's passenger rail service.

It's a joke guys, I know Amtrak is doing the best they can, with what little they can. But you all know me. "Little things" often cost zero or next-to-nothing, and often provide the most memorable part of a rail journey or dining experience.


----------



## tonys96

nferr said:


> Ehhh. Much ado about nothing. Most of the time the table vases have a little sprig of artificial flowers in them from my experience. So that's what you'll see IMO. People want to drink? Pay for it. I don't drink so why should all the sleeper passengers pay for it. I'm sure if those wine and cheese parties were profitable they wouldn't be eliminated. The only thing I like that's being cut is the newspaper. And since the sleepers are running pretty much full all the time anyway all the gloom and doom nonsense is silly.


My "home" train is the Texas Eagle, which has none of these amenities. That said, when we took the CS and EB last summer, we really enjoyed the wine & cheese deal. I do not drink but the g/f does and she had a blast, I ate cheese, she drank wine. Met many good folks and had more conversation and fellowship afterward on both trains. Losing that will make the trip less enjoyable, unless replaced by something different.

The little champagne bottles were useless.....but the small bag of toiletries was magnificent. I still have mine and consider it a very expensive souvenir. But it is a small remembrance of the time on the trains. A good thoughtful touch, like the cookies at a Double Tree hotel.

Never got the chocolate.....but I cannot imagine it to be a huge dollar saver to stop them. I can understand the newspaper loss....newsprint is dying everywhere, sadly.

Here is my take-away: Those who pay a pretty hefty premium for sleeper travel should get a few amenities, I DO subscribe to the slippery-slope theory here, next year we might hear _"Amtrak spends tax dollars supplying coffee to high rollers in sleeper cars! What a waste of your taxes!" _or the like. It is a never ending cycle, I am afraid. Taking the train has been for the travel _*experience*_, since air travel was deregulated. The journey to the destination is just as important as the destination here, and lessening that experience cannot be productive, in fact it is counter-productive.

YMMV


----------



## zepherdude

I think the days of being pampered are way over. All these things are just perks, not many people get perks anymore, anywhere. How many passengers actually purchased a bottle of wine. People like the wine and cheese because its free. I have never received chocolates and give the amenity kits away at Christmas, flowers are nice but not necessary. Everything is about money and being cost efficient and that is the way it goes. Have not received newspapers in many trips , so I won't miss them. None of these affect passenger service. One gets a room and a meal, which is what one is paying for.

What does one get in the First Class cabin on an airplane, a bigger seat and maybe a meal. No difference, unless going across the pond or to Asia. That is what one pays for and that is what one gets. American Airlines once cut the olives from coach salads and saved 4 million bucks a year. Oh yeh, F/C Flight Attendant to hang up your coat and say Thank You Mr. Zepherdude! That's it!

Think about the barzillions Amtrak looses each year, then decide if you really miss the a small glass of California wine, cheese square and stale cracker.


----------



## rrdude

zepherdude said:


> I think the days of being pampered are way over. * Don't have to be, especially  if you pay extra. *All these things are just perks, not many people get perks anymore, anywhere. How many passengers actually purchased a bottle of wine. People like the wine and cheese because its free. *It's a nice "touch", traveling in sleeper should have extras like this. (Has anyone not worked or stayed at a 5-Star hotel? They don't have to do 95% of what they do, but they DO, because it sets them apart) * I have never received chocolates and give the amenity kits away at Christmas, flowers are nice but not necessary. * That could be said about the dining car too. Just deliver box meals to your room....... *Everything is about money and being cost efficient and that is the way it goes. Have not received newspapers in many trips , so I won't miss them. None of these affect passenger service. * ALL of these affect passenger service, negatively. *One gets a room and a meal, which is what one is paying for. * For now, count your blessings................*
> 
> What does one get in the First Class cabin on an airplane, a bigger seat and maybe a meal. No difference, unless going across the pond or to Asia. That is what one pays for and that is what one gets. American Airlines once cut the olives from coach salads and saved 4 million bucks a year. Oh yeh, F/C Flight Attendant to hang up your coat and say Thank You Mr. Zepherdude! That's it!
> 
> Think about the barzillions Amtrak looses each year, then decide if you really miss the a small glass of California wine, cheese square and stale cracker. * I won't "miss" any of that crap, except the "social factor" that the wine & cheese tasting afforded.... (I bring my own bottle(s) of wine, cheese, and fruit right Penny?) what I will "miss" is the opportunity to have it for all of the regular "John Q Publics" who ride the train for the first time, pay BIG BUCKS for a sleeper, and then feel "Ya know, it was 'just OK', but I can't recommend it for the price.........."*
> 
> *Either offer First Class service, or Don't. But don't advertise it, and then NOT provide it. That's the worst sin of all. *


My Answers in *bold*, in-line above.....


----------



## warbonnet

Being a Californian, we expect to have good wine with dinner. We always bought and least one, sometime 2 bottles of wine at the wine tasting events. A good selection around $20.00 The dining car staff has always stored our purchased wine until dinner, and cheerfully uncorked and poured it when we arrive in the diner. We usually share the wine with our new tablemates, whoever they are. What a great way to make new friends over drinks and dinner. Some of our greatest train memories are sharing wine with complete strangers. We would talk until they kicked us out at closing time! The wine offered on the dinner menu is a split (half bottle) for $16.00 dollars. That's $32.00 a bottle. A big rip off. Under the new plan, I would like to suggest to Amtrak for the future, that first class sleeping car pax be allowed to bring their own wine to the diner, and charge a corking fee as some restaurants do. At $32.00 a bottle in the diner, that's a show stopper.

Wb


----------



## fairviewroad

I'll miss the newspapers because unlike others here, I still read a paper everyday. The problem with discontinuing the papers is not the lack of a "free" item, but rather the difficulty of procuring a newspaper en route. Much easier to grab one from the stack in the sleeping car than have to traipse around an unfamiliar station looking for a newspaper box that needs exact change and might or might not have a current edition. I'd be happy to pay for the papers on board, provided it was an actual newspaper and not a warmed over USA Today.

As for the little champagne bottles...or in our case, the Martinelli cider bottles. These aren't a "big deal" but I can still remember the first time my wife and I rode Amtrak sleeping class. In our case we boarded the CS in LAX, settled into our compartment, and were greeted by a friendly SCA who offered us a cold beverage. As we sipped our cider gliding north from LAX, we marveled at how "luxurious" everything felt. We saved those little bottles for several years after that, as it was a tangible memory of a very good experience.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I think the most concerning part of the notice is trend it now resumes. People are talking about how they couldn't care less about this or that specific amenity, and that's fine, but I think they may be missing the bigger picture. Ask yourself this question. If Amtrak focuses on recovering costs by cutting services where does this process end? Does it end with substantially cheaper tickets? Does it end with politicians of a certain mindset burying the hatchet and supporting Amtrak? Does it end with Amtrak becoming so profitable it can make up for ever more severe budget cuts? I'm having a hard time seeing the positive side of these changes. The explanations people are giving for these cuts could be applied to virtually everything Amtrak offers. If you compare the golden era of train travel to the level of service we have today the differences are stark, but none of that happened overnight. It was a long series of cuts that each took away only a few seemingly insignificant services at a time. For those who say they crave consistency over all other considerations, perhaps you'd consider the Supermax vacation service for your next family holiday. It's 100% consistent in every possible way with no chance of any surprises.


----------



## Karl1459

As a devil's advocate...

From a COACH passengers perspective:

1. Wine and cheese tasting. Whats that?

2. Complementary champagne, cider, and cranberry juice. Where?

3. Newspapers. Dumpster dive if you want one.

4. Amenity Kits. Huh?

5. Flowers and vases. That nice... when does my food get here?

6. Chocolates? The kids will just mess the seats (and I have never seen them even in sleeper)

Seriously,

These amenities need to be provided on all trains, or don't bother.

The wine and cheese tasting, and the champagne and cider... not needed.

The cranberry juice... This is a cost/usage decision that management should make, and be respected.

Newspapers are nice, but one or two copies in the lounge(s) would be all thats needed... Picking up local papers at intermediate stations would be a nice, inexpensive touch.

Amenity kits most likely go to waste as most people have there favorite brands of toothpaste/shampoo, etc. HOWEVER the lounge car should have a basic inventory of toothpaste, toothbrushes, floss, shampoo, soap, cough drops, and other essential hygiene products for sale.

Vases should be provided by Amtrak, but as an option for the OBS diner staff.

Flowers and chocolates should be an option for the OBS diner/sleeper staff to provide, make it THEIR decision if it increases tips to make it worthwhile (and the costs should be tax deductible as an unreimbursed expense). On the lines of this specifically allow crew members to provide extra “little things” at their expense, though rules/guidelines of what NOT to do would be needed.


----------



## montana mike

DA--Well stated!!!


----------



## fairviewroad

Karl1459 said:


> As a devil's advocate...
> 
> From a COACH passengers perspective:
> 
> 1. Wine and cheese tasting. Whats that?
> 
> 2. Complementary champagne, cider, and cranberry juice. Where?
> 
> 3. Newspapers. Dumpster dive if you want one.
> 
> 4. Amenity Kits. Huh?
> 
> 5. Flowers and vases. That nice... when does my food get here?
> 
> 6. Chocolates? The kids will just mess the seats (and I have never seen them even in sleeper)


7. The extra money that people pay to ride in sleeping class? What's that?


----------



## Now_you_cant_see_me

brentrain17 said:


> They can't take away the scenery


Glass can break, and expensive to replace.

Plus, it needs to be maintained/washed.

Amtrak could, next, board up all the windows, and with that, there goes the scenery.


----------



## rickycourtney

Karl1459 said:


> These amenities need to be provided on all trains, or don't bother.


Agreed. That means they should have been ADDED to all trains not removed from the few that had it.



Karl1459 said:


> The wine and cheese tasting, and the champagne and cider... not needed.


I feel like this was eliminated because it was a target of criticism. I would have been supportive of a small fee (they had a $5 fee for a while) to cover the cost of the wine and cheese. The costs could also be recovered through pushing wine sales not only at the end of the tasting, but at dinner time.



Karl1459 said:


> The cranberry juice... This is a cost/usage decision that management should make, and be respected.


I agree. This should be a decision made based on how many passengers are using the amenity (hopefully it was).



Karl1459 said:


> Newspapers are nice, but one or two copies in the lounge(s) would be all thats needed... Picking up local papers at intermediate stations would be a nice, inexpensive touch.


On the San Joaquin complementary newspapers are provided for all passengers. They just leave a stack of them in the café for passengers to grab. I feel like they could go to a system like this and just leave a few copies in the sleeping car for passengers to grab. They could also sell papers in the lounge car. Heck, I think it would be nice if they would sell paperback copies of popular books in the lounge (similar to the newsstand service provided in the golden era of train travel.)



Karl1459 said:


> Amenity kits most likely go to waste as most people have there favorite brands of toothpaste/shampoo, etc. HOWEVER the lounge car should have a basic inventory of toothpaste, toothbrushes, floss, shampoo, soap, cough drops, and other essential hygiene products for sale.


I guess I the only one on this forum that liked the Amenity Bags. I enjoy trying the different brands of shampoo and conditioner provided by hotels (especially when it's a better brand). I always thought the stuff Amtrak provided was pretty good.

I'm a HUGE advocate of Amtrak installing Shampoo and Conditioner dispensers in the shower rooms and lotion dispensers in the sleeper bathrooms. That way the amenity is provided... without the "shrink" of tossing the stuff that is partially used.

But if left with no other choice, I like the idea of offering these items in the lounge car.

Most hotels (3 star and up) proudly offer a service where if you forget a toothbrush or a razor they will happily provide one for free (I think they are provided by the manufacturers as a measure of goodwill. I once had to shave using a woman's Venus razor that said "Complements of Gillette" and had a coupon to buy my own inside. I passed on that offer.) Maybe Amtrak can work out a similar arrangement.



Karl1459 said:


> Vases should be provided by Amtrak, but as an option for the OBS diner staff.
> 
> Flowers and chocolates should be an option for the OBS diner/sleeper staff to provide, make it THEIR decision if it increases tips to make it worthwhile (and the costs should be tax deductible as an unreimbursed expense). On the lines of this specifically allow crew members to provide extra “little things” at their expense, though rules/guidelines of what NOT to do would be needed.


On my last trip on the California Zephyr we had an awesome SCA who provided his own cookies, candy and chocolates to passengers (he admitted that the extra tips he gets for providing this extra service more than covers the cost of all of the items items).


----------



## SarahZ

Now_you_cant_see_me said:


> brentrain17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can't take away the scenery
> 
> 
> 
> Glass can break, and expensive to replace.
> 
> Plus, it needs to be maintained/washed.
> 
> Amtrak could, next, board up all the windows, and with that, there goes the scenery.
Click to expand...

And this is where the argument officially jumps the shark...


----------



## VentureForth

rickycourtney said:


> Karl1459 said:
> 
> 
> 
> These amenities need to be provided on all trains, or don't bother.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. That means they should have been ADDED to all trains not removed from the few that had it.
> 
> 
> 
> Karl1459 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The wine and cheese tasting, and the champagne and cider... not needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I feel like this was eliminated because it was a target of criticism. I would have been supportive of a small fee (they had a $5 fee for a while) to cover the cost of the wine and cheese. The costs could also be recovered through pushing wine sales not only at the end of the tasting, but at dinner time.
> 
> 
> 
> Karl1459 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cranberry juice... This is a cost/usage decision that management should make, and be respected.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. This should be a decision made based on how many passengers are using the amenity (hopefully it was).
> 
> 
> 
> Karl1459 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newspapers are nice, but one or two copies in the lounge(s) would be all thats needed... Picking up local papers at intermediate stations would be a nice, inexpensive touch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On the San Joaquin complementary newspapers are provided for all passengers. They just leave a stack of them in the café for passengers to grab. I feel like they could go to a system like this and just leave a few copies in the sleeping car for passengers to grab. They could also sell papers in the lounge car. Heck, I think it would be nice if they would sell paperback copies of popular books in the lounge (similar to the newsstand service provided in the golden era of train travel.)
> 
> 
> 
> Karl1459 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amenity kits most likely go to waste as most people have there favorite brands of toothpaste/shampoo, etc. HOWEVER the lounge car should have a basic inventory of toothpaste, toothbrushes, floss, shampoo, soap, cough drops, and other essential hygiene products for sale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess I the only one on this forum that liked the Amenity Bags. I enjoy trying the different brands of shampoo and conditioner provided by hotels (especially when it's a better brand). I always thought the stuff Amtrak provided was pretty good.
> 
> I'm a HUGE advocate of Amtrak installing Shampoo and Conditioner dispensers in the shower rooms and lotion dispensers in the sleeper bathrooms. That way the amenity is provided... without the "shrink" of tossing the stuff that is partially used.
> 
> But if left with no other choice, I like the idea of offering these items in the lounge car.
> 
> Most hotels (3 star and up) proudly offer a service where if you forget a toothbrush or a razor they will happily provide one for free (I think they are provided by the manufacturers as a measure of goodwill. I once had to shave using a woman's Venus razor that said "Complements of Gillette" and had a coupon to buy my own inside. I passed on that offer.) Maybe Amtrak can work out a similar arrangement.
> 
> 
> 
> Karl1459 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vases should be provided by Amtrak, but as an option for the OBS diner staff.
> 
> Flowers and chocolates should be an option for the OBS diner/sleeper staff to provide, make it THEIR decision if it increases tips to make it worthwhile (and the costs should be tax deductible as an unreimbursed expense). On the lines of this specifically allow crew members to provide extra “little things” at their expense, though rules/guidelines of what NOT to do would be needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On my last trip on the California Zephyr we had an awesome SCA who provided his own cookies, candy and chocolates to passengers (he admitted that the extra tips he gets for providing this extra service more than covers the cost of all of the items items).
Click to expand...

 And there I actually see a liability. What if he spiked his cookies with some Washington or Colorado growth? Unlikely, but more plausible is what would happen if someone did get sick? The SCA can get into serious trouble offering something for consumption without a license.


----------



## yarrow

we were on the cs and eb last week. quite a few fellow travelers who had taken the routes before expected the amenities (especially the wine tasting and newspapers) based on what i heard. going to be an uncomfortable few months for the obs crew to explain the amenities are no longer offered. especially as the wine tasting is listed as a perk for the cs in the new timetable. but obs folks are probably used to explaining idiotic amtrak management decisions to customers


----------



## tonys96

zepherdude said:


> I think the days of being pampered are way over. All these things are just perks, not many people get perks anymore, anywhere. How many passengers actually purchased a bottle of wine. People like the wine and cheese because its free. I have never received chocolates and give the amenity kits away at Christmas, flowers are nice but not necessary. Everything is about money and being cost efficient and that is the way it goes. Have not received newspapers in many trips , so I won't miss them. None of these affect passenger service. One gets a room and a meal, which is what one is paying for.
> 
> What does one get in the First Class cabin on an airplane, a bigger seat and maybe a meal. No difference, unless going across the pond or to Asia. That is what one pays for and that is what one gets. American Airlines once cut the olives from coach salads and saved 4 million bucks a year. Oh yeh, F/C Flight Attendant to hang up your coat and say Thank You Mr. Zepherdude! That's it!
> 
> Think about the barzillions Amtrak looses each year, then decide if you really miss the a small glass of California wine, cheese square and stale cracker.


I agree that one pays for transport from here to there, and in a sleeper, pays for a bed. That is all.

In a top notch hotel, one pays for a bathroom and a bed, that's all. But one gets lot's more.....fold down service, cookies (DoubleTree) evening social events (Marriott Residence Inn and others)...the "extras" are what sets one property apart from another, and attracts a lot of repeat business. Amtrak must have repeat business to survive.

If all you want/need is transport from here to there, take coach. I do that nearly every trip, and when I spend the (big) extra $$$ for a sleeper, the "extras" are not really free...they are included in the cost. Just like the hotel cookies, and evening socials.


----------



## leemell

benjibear said:


> The only thing of any significance for me was the newspaper. I did read the paper while traveling. It was a USA today and it was good to have that newspaper. Now if they were to get wi-fi on ld trains, this would be a completly mute point for me.
> 
> Nothing on the list is that significant. In the entire scheme of things, these things probably have minimum value, but it looks like a good faith effort to the public and our elected officials that Amtrak is cutting waste.


Very little wifi on long distance western trains.


----------



## tonys96

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think the most concerning part of the notice is trend it now resumes. People are talking about how they couldn't care less about this or that specific amenity, and that's fine, but I think they may be missing the bigger picture. Ask yourself this question. If Amtrak focuses on recovering costs by cutting services where does this process end? Does it end with substantially cheaper tickets? Does it end with politicians of a certain mindset burying the hatchet and supporting Amtrak? Does it end with Amtrak becoming so profitable it can make up for ever more severe budget cuts? I'm having a hard time seeing the positive side of these changes. The explanations people are giving for these cuts could be applied to virtually everything Amtrak offers. If you compare the golden era of train travel to the level of service we have today the differences are stark, but none of that happened overnight. It was a long series of cuts that each took away only a few seemingly insignificant services at a time. For those who say they crave consistency over all other considerations, perhaps you'd consider the Supermax vacation service for your next family holiday. It's 100% consistent in every possible way with no chance of any surprises.


THIS.


----------



## SarahZ

To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels. If the EB and CS cost more than the SWC and TE, then I could understand being ticked off. If the prices are relatively the same, though, then it doesn't make any sense to have perks on one train and not the others. (I realize the buckets make it hard to compare; I'm just offering this as something to consider.)


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels. If the EB and CS cost more than the SWC and TE, then I could understand being ticked off. If the prices are relatively the same, though, then it doesn't make any sense to have perks on one train and not the others. (I realize the buckets make it hard to compare; I'm just offering this as something to consider.)


Sure...but since that argument is not quantifiable, it, IMHO, is moot.

These amenities are not offered on the Texas Eagle, my "home" train, but that does not mean they should be eliminated from all trains that do offer them as an extra, anymore than cheerleading should be eliminated as an extra activity at a school because a different school does not offer it.

In fact, the PPC and wine/cheese things were the "extra" enticement that got my g/f to agree to taking the CS and following it up with two more nights on the EB...she would not have done three nights, without that as an enticement....now she is hooked on Amtrak!


----------



## montana mike

Not that I will ever get a reply, but I did send a fairly long missive to Amtrak about this, including asking them how much the cost per person was for these amenities in the sleeper cars. It would have been interesting to see this number. Looking at wholesale costs for very similar items I don't think we were talking about very much $$. And as stated by several forum members, perhaps this could have just been added to the fare anyway. Just some "ballpark numbers" would indicate the cost per person would have been under $10 each for a one way trek from SEA to CHI on the EB. That is assuming a "full house" of sleeper pax on the three cars, and a generous amount of wine consumed and given away at the W&C tasting. We know this event is limited anyway, but I wanted to look at a worst case scenario. The W&C event was the most expensive part of this estimate. Oh, well..........


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.


So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?


----------



## Ryan

There's a huge gap (filled with other hotels) that fall between "fancy hotel with cookies" and "Motel 6".


----------



## tonys96

RyanS said:


> There's a huge gap (filled with other hotels) that fall between "fancy hotel with cookies" and "Motel 6".


There sure is, I agree!

Never said DoubleTree or Marriott's were "fancy hotels with cookies", though...did I?


----------



## fairviewroad

tonys96 said:


> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?


Interestingly, Motel 6 offers:



> Amenities Available at Every Motel 6 Location:
> 
> Kids Stay Free** *[Half price on Amtrak]*
> 
> Pets Welcome *[Not on Amtrak, though the occasional hamster is okay]*
> 
> Free Expanded Cable *[Not on Amtrak]*
> 
> Free Local Phone* *[Amtrak operates on a "bring your own phone" basis]*
> 
> Free Morning Coffee *[The one and only amenity that Motel 6 shares with LD trains  *]
> 
> Wi-Fi Internet Access*** *[Not on Amtrak LD trains, except spotty service on the PPC]*


----------



## tonys96

fairviewroad said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, Motel 6 offers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amenities Available at Every Motel 6 Location:
> 
> Kids Stay Free** *[Half price on Amtrak]*
> 
> Pets Welcome *[Not on Amtrak, though the occasional hamster is okay]*
> 
> Free Expanded Cable *[Not on Amtrak]*
> 
> Free Local Phone* *[Amtrak operates on a "bring your own phone" basis]*
> 
> Free Morning Coffee *[The one and only amenity that Motel 6 shares with LD trains  *]
> 
> Wi-Fi Internet Access*** *[Not on Amtrak LD trains, except spotty service on the PPC]*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

:giggle:


----------



## KC Ghost Rider

Firstly, I want to say I read some rather astute observations about this situation. I for one could not just sit still and wait for it to happen. I called Amtrak Customer Relations and voiced my displeasure. I stated I paid for a promised amenity and I expect it or to be compensated for its loss. I also said I would be okay, in the case of the wine and chess reception, to pay for that amenity...a sort of a opt in for a reasonable price. Long story short, I was assigned a case number and the nice lady(who did not have any amplifying information) said she would investigate and get back to me within 24 hours. I will post the results of this...if I ever hear back :unsure:


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Next time I'm booked on a train with Diner I guess I could run down to the Dollar Store or Hobby Lobby and pick up a few inexpensive plastic flowers in vases and leave them in the Diner. If enough of us did that we could repopulate all the Diners system wide :unsure: ^_^


----------



## yarrow

KC Ghost Rider said:


> Firstly, I want to say I read some rather astute observations about this situation. I for one could not just sit still and wait for it to happen. I called Amtrak Customer Relations and voiced my displeasure. I stated I paid for a promised amenity and I expect it or to be compensated for its loss. I also said I would be okay, in the case of the wine and chess reception, to pay for that amenity...a sort of a opt in for a reasonable price. Long story short, I was assigned a case number and the nice lady(who did not have any amplifying information) said she would investigate and get back to me within 24 hours. I will post the results of this...if I ever hear back :unsure:


excellent move. let us know what comes of it. although amtrak used to give a voucher if one took the cs and the ppc was missing i have heard in the past few years they no longer will. even though it is an advertised amenity


----------



## tonys96

yarrow said:


> KC Ghost Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, I want to say I read some rather astute observations about this situation. I for one could not just sit still and wait for it to happen. I called Amtrak Customer Relations and voiced my displeasure. I stated I paid for a promised amenity and I expect it or to be compensated for its loss. I also said I would be okay, in the case of the wine and chess reception, to pay for that amenity...a sort of a opt in for a reasonable price. Long story short, I was assigned a case number and the nice lady(who did not have any amplifying information) said she would investigate and get back to me within 24 hours. I will post the results of this...if I ever hear back :unsure:
> 
> 
> 
> excellent move. let us know what comes of it. although amtrak used to give a voucher if one took the cs and the ppc was missing i have heard in the past few years they no longer will. even though it is an advertised amenity
Click to expand...

That is true. However, since the PPC is only offered on one route, there might be some here who think it should be eliminated, since it is not on all the other routes. Myself, no way.....it is an enticement to try the CS and it is a great amenity on that train.


----------



## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a huge gap (filled with other hotels) that fall between "fancy hotel with cookies" and "Motel 6".
> 
> 
> 
> There sure is, I agree!Never said DoubleTree or Marriott's were "fancy hotels with cookies", though...did I?
Click to expand...

I cannot fathom how you're claiming that she's advocating for Motel 6 otherwise.


----------



## chakk

PRR 60 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the most important line in the notice this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*
> 
> 
> 
> Until I hear something official, I'm taking this to be an April Fools Joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep. This has the distinct odor of a hoax.
Click to expand...

Two words:

Foghorn Leghorn


----------



## benjibear

Not everyone has a smart phone. I for one, think it is a waste of money.


----------



## tonys96

RyanS said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a huge gap (filled with other hotels) that fall between "fancy hotel with cookies" and "Motel 6".
> 
> 
> 
> There sure is, I agree!Never said DoubleTree or Marriott's were "fancy hotels with cookies", though...did I?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cannot fathom how you're claiming that she's advocating for Motel 6 otherwise.
Click to expand...

I did not claim that, did I? I simply asked a sincere question, in a nice manner. Please refrain from misquoting me. Thanks in advance for that consideration, kind sir.


----------



## tonys96

benjibear said:


> Not everyone has a smart phone. I for one, think it is a waste of money.


True, this!

My g/f has an IPhone and she calls my very old Nokia (that lets me see my email and get phone calls only) a "middle school dropout phone"


----------



## oregon pioneer

tonys96 said:


> benjibear said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not everyone has a smart phone. I for one, think it is a waste of money.
> 
> 
> 
> True, this!
> 
> My g/f has an IPhone and she calls my very old Nokia (that lets me see my email and get phone calls only) a "middle school dropout phone"
Click to expand...

Some of us live in areas with no cell service. Not much point in an expensive plan we can only use on the road. That leaves us dependent on public wi-fi when we travel.


----------



## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a huge gap (filled with other hotels) that fall between "fancy hotel with cookies" and "Motel 6".
> 
> 
> 
> There sure is, I agree!Never said DoubleTree or Marriott's were "fancy hotels with cookies", though...did I?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cannot fathom how you're claiming that she's advocating for Motel 6 otherwise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not claim that, did I? I simply asked a sincere question, in a nice manner. Please refrain from misquoting me. Thanks in advance for that consideration, kind sir.
Click to expand...

Let's go to the videotape, shall we?



tonys96 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
Click to expand...

Why would you ask this if you didn't think that she was?


----------



## tonys96

RyanS said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a huge gap (filled with other hotels) that fall between "fancy hotel with cookies" and "Motel 6".
> 
> 
> 
> There sure is, I agree!Never said DoubleTree or Marriott's were "fancy hotels with cookies", though...did I?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cannot fathom how you're claiming that she's advocating for Motel 6 otherwise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not claim that, did I? I simply asked a sincere question, in a nice manner. Please refrain from misquoting me. Thanks in advance for that consideration, kind sir.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's go to the videotape, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why would you ask this if you didn't think that she was?
Click to expand...

Uh, the same reason any other question is asked....to get an answer. I never have preconceived notions of what an answer to a question about a personal opinion might be. Apparently some here do, however. Thank you for your interest in my sincere questions to others though.

Unfortunately, however, it has come to the point where I must cease replying to your commentary. It is getting tiresome, and has a twinge of animosity coming from your side of the conversation. Have a great night, sir. Be blessed.


----------



## dabrilloman

Love the date (NOT!)....March 31....the day I am scheduled for my return from Reno via CZ-CS-EB. Never been on the EB (except for MSP-CHI) and was looking forward to the little extras. Guess I will have to bring my own wine and cheese.

As for newspapers, call me old fashioned, but I still like the feel of a paper in my hand and the sound of a turning page. I also enjoy reading the local papers wherever I travel to. It would be nice if there were at least newspaper boxes at the stops where there are fresh air breaks so you could get a paper.


----------



## SarahZ

tonys96 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
Click to expand...

That is not what I said at all. You missed the whole point of my post. As Ryan said, there are a LOT of hotels between Hilton-quality and Motel 6-quality. Just because a hotel doesn't have cookies and dry cleaning doesn't mean they have bedbugs and cocaine residue on the coffee table.

Assuming the EB and SWC are the same price, then it doesn't make sense to have perks on one and not on the other.

IF, the EB is more expensive than the SWC, and the price doesn't drop after this, then I can see why people would be upset.

To break it down even further, here is an example (I'm making up the amenities and prices):

Hilton gives you a pool, dry cleaning, turn-down service, and cookies. The room is $175/night.

Holiday Inn has the exact same amenities and does not give you cookies. The room is $175/night.

If Hilton stopped providing cookies, that makes them equal with Holiday Inn.

Now, if Hilton was $200/night and the Holiday Inn was $175/night and the Hilton didn't lower their prices after stopping the cookies, then I can see why Hilton lovers would be mad.

In this case, the EB and CS are Hilton, and the SWC, etc are the Holiday Inn. That's why I'm thinking that if both trains are the same price, then it doesn't make sense to get upset about not having perks on one but not the other. I can see why Hilton would do it, since they are a separate brand, but let's say both hotels are owned by the same company. In Amtrak's case, all of the trains are Amtrak, so it's bizarre that some trains have these amenities but others don't, unless those trains with the amenities are more expensive. I'm not saying ALL First Class should be lowered to zilch. I'm saying it makes more sense for the First Class amenities to be equal across ALL of the trains. So they'll all be Holiday Inns now instead of some being Hiltons.

That is what I meant by my original post. I'm not sure how to break it down further. I even admitted I can't really cost compare both trains, due to the buckets changing all the time, but it would be interesting to compare them for this example. I simply don't have time to run several scenarios, as I'm busy studying for a test and writing a paper.

If Amtrak thinks this will help their bottom line, so be it. I wasn't in the number-crunchers' room when they came up with this decision, so I have to trust those accountants, and if it means Amtrak bleeds out even 1000 fewer dollars, then fine. They have to start somewhere. What would you cut? Service? Cars? Employees? Food? Towels and washcloths? No. You'd get rid of the frills first so you didn't have to lay off employees or cut service. If you got laid off and suddenly had to live on 1/2 of your salary, what would go first - the mortgage or the department store credit card?


----------



## Ryan

SarahZ said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is not what I said at all. You missed the whole point of my post.
Click to expand...

No, you've got it completely wrong, he was Just Asking Questions.


----------



## SarahZ

I've had to edit my post several times. When I start trying to make sense of my own brain, I can't really expect others to. So, I'm out. This is why I try not to participate in political/financial/etc threads. I'll stick to the, "How Do I Order in the Diner" type stuff from now on. ^_^


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is not what I said at all. You missed the whole point of my post.
> 
> Assuming the EB and SWC are the same price, then it doesn't make sense to have perks on one and not on the other.
> 
> IF, the EB is more expensive than the SWC, and the price doesn't drop after this, then I can see why people would be upset.
> 
> To break it down even further, here is an example (I'm making up the amenities and prices):
> 
> Hilton gives you a pool, dry cleaning, turn-down service, and cookies. The room is $175/night.
> 
> Holiday Inn has the exact same amenities and does not give you cookies. The room is $175/night.
> 
> If Hilton stopped providing cookies, that makes them equal with Holiday Inn.
> 
> Now, if Hilton was $200/night and the Holiday Inn was $175/night and the Hilton didn't lower their prices after stopping the cookies, then I can see why Hilton lovers would be mad.
> 
> In this case, the EB and CS are Hilton, and the SWC, etc are the Holiday Inn. That's why I'm thinking that if both trains are the same price, then it doesn't make sense to have perks on one and not the other. I can see why Hilton does it, since they are a separate brand, but let's say both hotels are owned by the same company. In Amtrak's case, all of the trains are Amtrak, so it's bizarre that some trains have these amenities but others don't, unless those trains with the amenities are more expensive.
> 
> That is what I meant by my original post. I'm not sure how to break it down further. I even admitted I can't really cost compare both trains, due to the bucket system, but it would be interesting to compare them for this example. I simply don't have time to run several scenarios, as I'm busy studying for a test and writing a paper. Maybe, someday, I will, but to be honest, I don't care.
> 
> If Amtrak thinks this will help their bottom line, so be it. I wasn't in the number-crunchers' room when they came up with this decision, so I have to trust those accountants, and if it means Amtrak bleeds out even 1000 fewer dollars, then fine. They have to start somewhere. What would you cut? Service? Cars? Employees? Food? Towels and washcloths? No. You'd get rid of the frills first so you didn't have to lay off employees or cut service. When you do your monthly budget and realize you're making less money this month (for whatever reason), what goes first - the mortgage or the department store credit card?
Click to expand...

I simply disagree. I am not saying you are wrong or right, nor am I saying I am right or wrong, I simply disagree....... IMHO, just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator. Now, if we are talking about* UPgrading* all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards. 

I would not advocate the removal of any perk (like the PPC on the CS) just because the Texas Eagle or other routes do not have one. We get Miss Polly again as a perk on the Eagle, I have heard. :lol:

But, of course, that is just my opinion. YMMV.


----------



## SarahZ

I do respect your opinion, and I get what you're saying.

My main point is that if it saves Amtrak money to make their First Class service uniform across all trains, then I get why they're doing it. I'd rather skip the champagne than lose service or have employees laid off. I don't see it as a "lowest common denominator" thing, but maybe that's because I'm happy with "just" a bed, shower, meals, SCA, etc. I feel like I get my money's worth (okay... points' worth).  To me, the "lowest common denominator" would be if they went the way of the airlines and made us pay for meals, tried to cram more roomettes into the cars, reduced the carry-on allowance, etc. Until that happens, I feel having a private room with meals included is pretty hoity-toity. 

But then again, I'm "new money".


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> I do respect your opinion, and I get what you're saying.
> 
> My main point is that if it saves Amtrak money to make their First Class service uniform across all trains, then I get why they're doing it. I'd rather skip the champagne than lose service or have employees laid off. I don't see it as a "lowest common denominator" thing, but maybe that's because I'm happy with "just" a bed, shower, meals, SCA, etc. I feel like I get my money's worth (okay... points' worth).  To me, the "lowest common denominator" would be if they went the way of the airlines and made us pay for meals, tried to cram more roomettes into the cars, reduced the carry-on allowance, etc. Until that happens, I feel having a private room with meals included is pretty hoity-toity.
> 
> But then again, I'm "new money".


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SarahZ said:


> If Amtrak thinks this will help their bottom line, so be it. I wasn't in the number-crunchers' room when they came up with this decision, so I have to trust those accountants, and if it means Amtrak bleeds out even 1000 fewer dollars, then fine. They have to start somewhere. What would you cut? Service? Cars? Employees? Food? Towels and washcloths? No. You'd get rid of the frills first so you didn't have to lay off employees or cut service. When you do your monthly budget, what goes first - the mortgage or the department store credit card?


If we follow your metaphor to its logical conclusion Amtrak has been broke for forty years and the only way they'll be able to pay off the mortgage is to sell nearly everything they own.


----------



## Karl1459

tonys96 said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KC Ghost Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, I want to say I read some rather astute observations about this situation. I for one could not just sit still and wait for it to happen. I called Amtrak Customer Relations and voiced my displeasure. I stated I paid for a promised amenity and I expect it or to be compensated for its loss. I also said I would be okay, in the case of the wine and chess reception, to pay for that amenity...a sort of a opt in for a reasonable price. Long story short, I was assigned a case number and the nice lady(who did not have any amplifying information) said she would investigate and get back to me within 24 hours. I will post the results of this...if I ever hear back :unsure:
> 
> 
> 
> excellent move. let us know what comes of it. although amtrak used to give a voucher if one took the cs and the ppc was missing i have heard in the past few years they no longer will. even though it is an advertised amenity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is true. However, since the PPC is only offered on one route, there might be some here who think it should be eliminated, since it is not on all the other routes. Myself, no way.....it is an enticement to try the CS and it is a great amenity on that train.
Click to expand...




SarahZ said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is not what I said at all. You missed the whole point of my post. As Ryan said, there are a LOT of hotels between Hilton-quality and Motel 6-quality. Just because a hotel doesn't have cookies and dry cleaning doesn't mean they have bedbugs and cocaine residue on the coffee table.
> 
> Assuming the EB and SWC are the same price, then it doesn't make sense to have perks on one and not on the other.
> 
> IF, the EB is more expensive than the SWC, and the price doesn't drop after this, then I can see why people would be upset.
> 
> To break it down even further, here is an example (I'm making up the amenities and prices):
> 
> Hilton gives you a pool, dry cleaning, turn-down service, and cookies. The room is $175/night.
> 
> Holiday Inn has the exact same amenities and does not give you cookies. The room is $175/night.
> 
> If Hilton stopped providing cookies, that makes them equal with Holiday Inn.
> 
> Now, if Hilton was $200/night and the Holiday Inn was $175/night and the Hilton didn't lower their prices after stopping the cookies, then I can see why Hilton lovers would be mad.
> 
> In this case, the EB and CS are Hilton, and the SWC, etc are the Holiday Inn. That's why I'm thinking that if both trains are the same price, then it doesn't make sense to get upset about not having perks on one but not the other. I can see why Hilton would do it, since they are a separate brand, but let's say both hotels are owned by the same company. In Amtrak's case, all of the trains are Amtrak, so it's bizarre that some trains have these amenities but others don't, unless those trains with the amenities are more expensive. I'm not saying ALL First Class should be lowered to zilch. I'm saying it makes more sense for the First Class amenities to be equal across ALL of the trains. So they'll all be Holiday Inns now instead of some being Hiltons.
> 
> That is what I meant by my original post. I'm not sure how to break it down further. I even admitted I can't really cost compare both trains, due to the buckets changing all the time, but it would be interesting to compare them for this example. I simply don't have time to run several scenarios, as I'm busy studying for a test and writing a paper.
> 
> If Amtrak thinks this will help their bottom line, so be it. I wasn't in the number-crunchers' room when they came up with this decision, so I have to trust those accountants, and if it means Amtrak bleeds out even 1000 fewer dollars, then fine. They have to start somewhere. What would you cut? Service? Cars? Employees? Food? Towels and washcloths? No. You'd get rid of the frills first so you didn't have to lay off employees or cut service. If you got laid off and suddenly had to live on 1/2 of your salary, what would go first - the mortgage or the department store credit card?
Click to expand...

I think a rational business plan could include amenities on one train not on another of the same pricing when there are economics of scale (ie more passengers). This would allow for a PPC on the CS and EB, but not likely on, for example, the SL. To use Sarah's analogy a Holiday Inn with 50 rooms might not have as many amenities as a 200 room facility within similar pricing and markets. Another rational scheme could be to offer differing, but equivalant (cost wise... value is in the eye of the holder) amemities to differentate trains from each other and assist in "branding".

A point not brought out yet is for Amtrak to clearly show a "profit" on their "hotel services" over and above coach fare, providing some justification to rational congresscritters to not mess with success (This will not stop mischiefmakers such as Mica whos apparent highway/airline support want passenger rail to fail, and increasing usage alarms them).


----------



## Nathanael

Removing the wine and cheese thing on the LSL is an error, and probably due to overreaction to the idiocy from Mica. This "reception" exists only because the LSL lost its dinner, and the diner employees are otherwise being paid, but doing absolutely nothing, that evening. The cost is trivial.

When will the LSL schedule get fixed to restore dinner? Amtrak was trying to do that in the LSL PIP and in the Capitol Limited PIP and it needs to happen ASAP. And if the schedule change doesn't happen, Amtrak needs to start offering dinner east of Albany, where the situation is unsatisfactory.

I don't have a problem with dropping any of the special things on the Empire Builder or Coast Starlight. I've been on both trains, and managed to not get several of the items (the chocolate square etc.), while the wine tastings seemed to encourage drunkenness, which wasn't good. (The LSL event, anyone who got drunk promptly slept it off.)

The cranberry juice looks like a practical measure; it was probably being underused and having to be tossed due to being expired.

The newspapers were obsolete thanks to wireless Internet news.

The flowers, sitting on paper tablecloths next to plastic dishes, always felt a bit too much like putting lipstick on a pig. If we could get real dishes and cloth tablecloths, I'd value that a lot more.


----------



## Nathanael

Michael061282 said:


> The wine tasting is a loss for those who drink wine. I don't (but have ZERO problem with those who do, unless they over do it), so no loss for me. Honestly though I thought Amtrak were "pushing" the wine & cheese a little too much, but I'm (very admittedly) a bit sensitive, having had more a couple of family member suffer from Cirrhosis. I probably wouldn't have been so sensitive though if they had of offered something for those of us who choose not to drink but c'est la vie.


On the LSL, they did. Martinelli's sparkling apple cider. (Nonalcoholic). Good stuff.

They also offered grapes for those who couldn't eat cheese!


----------



## Golden grrl

To quote directly from http://www.amtrak.com/coast-starlight-train as copied within the last five minutes...

"Sleeping car passengers can experience a full range of exclusive services and amenities on the Coast Starlight, including complimentary onboard internet access via AmtrakConnect and an exciting alternative meal service, both available in the Parlour Car. *Each sleeping car passenger will receive* complimentary meals (with the exception of alcohol) in the Dining Car or the Parlour Car, *a special welcome gift *and *a personal amenities kit that includes shampoo, soaps and lotions*. *A daily tasting of local wines and artisan cheeses is available in the refurbished Pacific Parlour Car.* This "living room on rails" is the perfect place for sleeping car passengers to relax, celebrate or socialize. With an onboard theater and alternative dining venue, the Pacific Parlour Car _will make your Coast Starlight experience unforgettable_."

[bolding and italics added]

If the bolded amenities change, this promotional wording at the website better end soon. Would hate to see Amtrak sued over false advertising.

In my experience, I do not usually meet people in the PPC who are even aware of AGR or AU. They were not hunting for bargains or looking to gain the most points, because they didn't even know about them. Instead, most of the people I meet are occasional travelers who "decided to try first class" and are impressed by and comment upon the amenities and social hour. Several have been international travelers who raved about the extras. If these things change, my impression is that such travelers will be less likely to promote Amtrak to their friends, and less likely to be return passengers. Give one of these sleeper passengers a roomette on the lower level on the wrong side of the CS, on a rainy day with dirty windows, remove all the amenities.._.their CS experience will be very forgettable_.


----------



## Nathanael

rrdude said:


> Not so much for the service/amenity itself that they are cutting, but the mere fact that Amtrak is _downgrading_ the service.


...


> In the past Amtrak offered linen tablecloths, flatware, china, and glass glasses.
> 
> 
> Now it's disposable and plastic. ("Hey Amtrak, I thought you were "Green", *NOT!*)
> In the past Amtrak had a small fleet of "true" lounge cars.
> Now it's Amcafes, with tiny windows, tables on one/both ends,


The thing is, these are things I agree with you on. I don't give a damn about the flowers, but I'd really like the real china dishes back. And Amtrak absolutely needs to order single-level panoramic lounge cars.

And the LSL needs to provide dinner.


----------



## Nathanael

Railroad Bill said:


> Jerry,
> 
> An excellent letter that focuses on the real problem with this amenity cuts. Where can we sign our names?


Likewise. I don't know if there's some way of setting this up so that more people can sign on, but you described the situation very well.


----------



## Nathanael

Aaron said:


> reefgeek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody in business has heard the story of the guy who eliminated the olive in the airline salads and saved American a million dollars yadda yadda, but look at the airline coach foodservice now! It is a race to the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving aside the questions of the truth or amount of actual savings in the olive story (debated here), a useful counterpoint to that story is Bob Farrell's "Pickle Principle", teaching his employees to not get hung up on disappointing customers with little piddly things like the cost of an extra pickle and just "give 'em the pickle". The principle is that the bad impression given by the argument over the price of the pickle is way more costly to the bottom line over the long run than just giving them the pickle. It costs virtually nothing in the grand scheme of things, and leaves a much better impression in the minds of customers.
> 
> As an aside, the first time that I realized that "consultants" in my industry were worthless was a convention where in the same day, two different "consultant" speakers gave the exact opposite advice in telling us the best way to treat our customers. One based her whole talk on the olive story, the other based his entire talk on the pickle story. The only thing I took home from that convention is that it was vitally important to be constantly concerned about which garnish to provide to which person when.
Click to expand...

Never nickel and dime the customers. We don't like it.
The cleverest operations I've seen have a pretty basic base provision of services, but offer a surprising amount of extra stuff for free to anyone who complains, or who seems to be having trouble. This is tricky to do right. The classic example would be to not have any olives in the salad unless people asked for olives, but if they did, to provide them for free...

"Cranberry juice will still be provided in the dining car" is an important example of this approach. The dining car attendants should offer free cranberry juice to sleeper passengers who need it when the dining car isn't serving... a few people will take it, most people won't.


----------



## pianocat

Having taken the EB in summer 2013, CZ in 2011, and SWC just this last Christmas.... I can only relate my own experience with these extras, and give my opinion about the absence of them. I went to the W&C event this past summer on EB and ended up sitting with some obnoxious louts that I had nothing in common with, so really didn't enjoy it. As a matter of fact, I left early because these people were so unpleasant, I preferred to go sit in my roomette . I know that's the exception more than the norm but the whole concept of getting folks who don't know each other together to laugh, share and learn something about wine was a really nice thing. Just didn't work out well for me for the ride back to CHI. On the way OUT to Spokane, the SCA was so unorganized that she ended up popping some corks at the coffee bar in our car, and saying whoever wants to come drink some...come on out. It was so crowded in that tiny stairwell that I took my wine and returned to my sleeper. I wouldn't be upset at all to lose this 'perk'. It's nice, but there's plenty of social interaction at the meals in diner car and this extra touch isn't really necessary. Especially for recluses like myself I've never seen a chocolate in my roomette. On SWC, I touched the flowers in dining car and was surprised that they were fresh...thinking, what a nice touch! But I'd still enjoy the meal if something artificial appeared. Regarding the newspaper....I don't read these, usually...but on SWC we were given the local Lamar, CO rag and it was hilarious for about 30 min. as I read the local gossip columns and who did what to who...during the week. I ride the train LD to AVOID hearing about all the awful news in the world, so this was entertainment...but I can get hard news on my phone. Bottom line....I just want Amtrak to keep on keepin' on.... Don't change the routes, don't change the awesome bubble that riding a train gives us as we watch life pass by out the window. Little things? meh. No biggie. I'll take Amtrak until it just isn't around anymore...which I hope is never a reality!


----------



## Nathanael

yarrow said:


> especially as the wine tasting is listed as a perk for the cs in the new timetable.


And the wine-and-cheese tasting is listed as a perk of the LSL in the current timetable, as well.

*Listen up, Amtrak. THIS matters. You can take away an amenity, but not while you're still advertising it.*

That gets people mad; they feel cheated because they've been promised something and it wasn't delivered.

This is a very basic communications issue, and an easy enough one to fix (issue a new timetable).


----------



## Michigan Mom

IMHO, just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator. Now, if we are talking about* UPgrading* all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards

---------------------

Tony, apologize for lifting this quote maybe out of context. But I think you are touching on something bigger than flowers or chocolates. There is a general move towards standardization as a means to save money, and generally standardization doesn't have anything to do with improved quality no matter what PR is being sold to us. And someone else mentioned a "race to the bottom" which is also instructive. Someone will benefit, but it won't be employees or customers.

"Someone" is also taking a steps towards... we provide transportation, not meals... have your credit card ready for our smiling attendant with the handheld credit card reader....OH unless you're in FC... oh wait, we already charge the coach pax....hmmm..

Eliminating a perk or two will never save jobs. It's a fallacy to suppose that jobs will be saved. Jobs are never secure once the cutting starts. It's not an Amtrak-specific trend, it's the way the country is going. In the meantime, it is now often more expensive to travel longer distances on Amtrak, than it is by flying or driving, which is counterintuitive.


----------



## montana mike

Well stated.


----------



## Trogdor

tonys96 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Uh, the same reason any other question is asked....to get an answer. I never have preconceived notions of what an answer to a question about a personal opinion might be.
Click to expand...

There is such thing as a question that isn't really a question (i.e. a sentence that is technically in the form of a question, but with an implied answer contained within). If you didn't have preconceived notions about what she was thinking, you wouldn't have specifically mentioned Motel 6.


----------



## SarahZ

pianocat said:


> On SWC, I touched the flowers in dining car and was surprised that they were fresh...thinking, what a nice touch!


I've never touched the flowers either. To be honest, I didn't know they were fresh until I heard about them getting rid of them. I couldn't figure out why artificial flowers (which are easy to dust and clean) were on the list of cuts, especially since they already have the vases on-board. Now that I know they're fresh, I can see why they're on the list.

Since they DO have the vases, they could always switch to artificial if people are really hung up on the flower thing. Silk flowers are pretty, and it's hard to tell they're fake unless you touch them.


----------



## tonys96

Michigan Mom said:


> IMHO, just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator. Now, if we are talking about* UPgrading* all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> Tony, apologize for lifting this quote maybe out of context. But I think you are touching on something bigger than flowers or chocolates. There is a general move towards standardization as a means to save money, and generally standardization doesn't have anything to do with improved quality no matter what PR is being sold to us. And someone else mentioned a "race to the bottom" which is also instructive. Someone will benefit, but it won't be employees or customers.
> 
> "Someone" is also taking a steps towards... we provide transportation, not meals... have your credit card ready for our smiling attendant with the handheld credit card reader....OH unless you're in FC... oh wait, we already charge the coach pax....hmmm..
> 
> Eliminating a perk or two will never save jobs. It's a fallacy to suppose that jobs will be saved. Jobs are never secure once the cutting starts. It's not an Amtrak-specific trend, it's the way the country is going. In the meantime, it is now often more expensive to travel longer distances on Amtrak, than it is by flying or driving, which is counterintuitive.


Agreed.


----------



## SarahZ

Michigan Mom said:


> IMHO, *just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator*. Now, if we are talking about UPgrading all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards.


That's not why they're "downgrading", though. Amtrak is losing money, so they're trying to cut extras. It's not because one train is better than another.


----------



## tonys96

Trogdor said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, those hotels with the cookies and such also cost more than other hotels.
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Uh, the same reason any other question is asked....to get an answer. I never have preconceived notions of what an answer to a question about a personal opinion might be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is such thing as a question that isn't really a question (i.e. a sentence that is technically in the form of a question, but with an implied answer contained within). If you didn't have preconceived notions about what she was thinking, you wouldn't have specifically mentioned Motel 6.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input, as far off base as it is.


----------



## Trogdor

tonys96 said:


> Glad you think you can read minds. Would be a great parlor trick.


Not a parlor trick. It's basically what a preconceived notion is. You already chose an answer (i.e. that she was advocating Amtrak become like Motel 6) before actually knowing the answer, then fed it back in the form of a question to see if your idea was correct.


----------



## TinCan782

Nathanael said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> especially as the wine tasting is listed as a perk for the cs in the new timetable.
> 
> 
> 
> And the wine-and-cheese tasting is listed as a perk of the LSL in the current timetable, as well.
> 
> *Listen up, Amtrak. THIS matters. You can take away an amenity, but not while you're still advertising it.*
> 
> That gets people mad; they feel cheated because they've been promised something and it wasn't delivered.
> 
> This is a very basic communications issue, and an easy enough one to fix (issue a new timetable).
Click to expand...

And a recent post on Facebook this afternoon...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152165111489014&set=a.278157009013.143973.9411224013&type=1&theater&notif_t=photo_reply


----------



## Michigan Mom

SarahZ said:


> Michigan Mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, *just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator*. Now, if we are talking about UPgrading all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not why they're "downgrading", though. Amtrak is losing money, so they're trying to cut extras. It's not because one train is better than another.
Click to expand...

The thing that may be a little worrisome about that, Sarah, is that trimming some extras doesn't really address the bigger picture. That's the PR aspect of it. I hope with all my heart, what little of that I have, that you are correct and they are just trying to save a few bucks with the goal of supporting Amtrak.


----------



## SarahZ

FrensicPic said:


> And a recent post on Facebook this afternoon...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152165111489014&set=a.278157009013.143973.9411224013&type=1&theater&notif_t=photo_reply


I saw that. Even though everyone is shrieking "false" over it, they're forgetting you can still order wine in the dining car. That shows a table, no flower (off-frame), with the plasticware, and the half-bottle of wine that's on the current dining car menus. Nothing about that picture is untrue (except for the old style of car, obviously). Other than the car looking different, that photo looks a lot like our table during a recent trip. The wine is super overpriced, so we didn't order it again. Now we bring our own.


----------



## SarahZ

Michigan Mom said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michigan Mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, *just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator*. Now, if we are talking about UPgrading all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not why they're "downgrading", though. Amtrak is losing money, so they're trying to cut extras. It's not because one train is better than another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The thing that may be a little worrisome about that, Sarah, is that trimming some extras doesn't really address the bigger picture. That's the PR aspect of it. I hope with all my heart, what little of that I have, that you are correct and they are just trying to save a few bucks with the goal of supporting Amtrak.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not under any delusion that this will fix things completely. It's just a start. Until Amtrak gets more funding and more support, there's only so much they can do. So, for now, I'd rather see little things go than have them do service cuts and lay-offs.


----------



## Ryan

Trogdor said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glad you think you can read minds. Would be a great parlor trick.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parlor trick. It's basically what a preconceived notion is. You already chose an answer (i.e. that she was advocating Amtrak become like Motel 6) before actually knowing the answer, then fed it back in the form of a question to see if your idea was correct.
Click to expand...

And then plays hurt when called on it. Cute.
Nice catch on the attempted edit, too.


----------



## penfrydd

Well, I'm in the camp that says that, if you've purchased a sleeper ticket, based upon all the "amenities" advertised, that you'll be rather disappointed to not receive them. Next July will be a big trip for my wife and myself (her first on Amtrak). We were looking forward to what seemed like "first-class" service. Granted, a nice bed and shower will do (as long as meals are still included), but that does not take away from the concept of receiving what you have already paid for!!!


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> Michigan Mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, *just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator*. Now, if we are talking about UPgrading all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not why they're "downgrading", though. Amtrak is losing money, so they're trying to cut extras. It's not because one train is better than another.
Click to expand...

One person's "extra" might be anothers sole reason to choose Amtrak over the myriad other options out there. Many take the train as an integral part of the journey experience, not just as a way to get from here to there. Rooms ain't cheap.

I can see how those who just want to get from "A" to "B" with a place to lie flat might not care about these things on certain routes. But it does make me wonder why anyone would want to deny them to those who do partake of them, if there is no reduction in cost for doing so. I also can see how the "extras" could be the selling point that tips the scale toward taking the train instead of the Dog or Megabus.

Two sides to every coin.

Anyhoo.......some routes have great scenery, some have a PPC, some have W&C, some have Trails & Rails, some have Miss Polly, some are Superliner, some are Viewliner, some have free shampoo, they all are different from each other and singularly unique. I like that. To all be cookie cutter, same as each other would be a terrible thing, IMHO.


----------



## tonys96

Trogdor said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glad you think you can read minds. Would be a great parlor trick.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a parlor trick. It's basically what a preconceived notion is. You already chose an answer (i.e. that she was advocating Amtrak become like Motel 6) before actually knowing the answer, then fed it back in the form of a question to see if your idea was correct.
Click to expand...

You seem to have a preconceived notion that I was doing this. It is not a correct notion.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SarahZ said:


> Michigan Mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, *just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator*. Now, if we are talking about UPgrading all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not why they're "downgrading", though. Amtrak is losing money, so they're trying to cut extras. It's not because one train is better than another.
Click to expand...

You keep saying that but the honest truth is that it is simply not possible for Amtrak to slash and cut themselves into the black. If that's not possible then where will the cutting stop now that we've started it up again?


----------



## Ryan

I think of it this way - Amtrak cutting these things solves their budget problem about as much as cutting Amtrak would solve the federal budget problem.

That is to say, not at all, and the cure is probably worse than the disease.


----------



## SarahZ

Devil's Advocate said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michigan Mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, *just because one route offers a different experience than another one does, it should not mean that all routes should be denigrated to the lowest common denominator*. Now, if we are talking about UPgrading all routes to be like the CS or the (current) EB, I bet we would all be in agreement! But, sadly, that is not in the cards.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not why they're "downgrading", though. Amtrak is losing money, so they're trying to cut extras. It's not because one train is better than another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You keep saying that but the honest truth is that it is simply not possible for Amtrak to slash and cut themselves into the black. If that's not possible then where will the cutting stop now that we've started it up again?
Click to expand...

No, my point was that they weren't cutting those extras simply because the EB/CS have them and the other trains don't. I thought maybe MM misunderstood what I was saying when replying to Tony about the hotel analogy.


----------



## SarahZ

RyanS said:


> I think of it this way - Amtrak cutting these things solves their budget problem about as much as cutting Amtrak would solve the federal budget problem.
> 
> That is to say, not at all, and the cure is probably worse than the disease.


I agree. I'm not saying it's the be all, end all solution. Not one bit. I hate to think of the actual solution. I just don't think it makes financial sense to keep offering these things when they're in the red, so I understand why they're doing it. I know it's probably just prolonging the inevitable, so it IS sad, in that sense.

A lot of people are misunderstanding me, so obviously I'm failing to communicate properly. Sorry.


----------



## Michigan Mom

Two sides to every coin.

Anyhoo.......some routes have great scenery, some have a PPC, some have W&C, some have Trails & Rails, some have Miss Polly, some are Superliner, some are Viewliner, some have free shampoo, they all are different from each other and singularly unique. I like that. To all be cookie cutter, same as each other would be a terrible thing, IMHO.

------------

Tony..... SO with you on that!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SarahZ said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think of it this way - Amtrak cutting these things solves their budget problem about as much as cutting Amtrak would solve the federal budget problem.
> 
> That is to say, not at all, and the cure is probably worse than the disease.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I'm not saying it's the be all, end all solution. Not one bit. I hate to think of the actual solution. I just don't think it makes financial sense to keep offering these things when they're in the red, so I understand why they're doing it. I know it's probably just prolonging the inevitable, so it IS sad, in that sense. A lot of people are misunderstanding me, so obviously I'm failing to communicate properly. Sorry.
Click to expand...

If you don't think it makes financial sense to continue offering services that keep Amtrak in the red then you've basically written off most of the national network. I'm sorry you'd hate to think of where these John Mica style "solutions" would actually end up but that's the real issue here, not where it starts.


----------



## Peter KG6LSE

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Next time I'm booked on a train with Diner I guess I could run down to the Dollar Store or Hobby Lobby and pick up a few inexpensive plastic flowers in vases and leave them in the Diner. If enough of us did that we could repopulate all the Diners system wide :unsure: ^_^


Ya know the next time Iam on the CS Ill bring some from the dollar tree.....

this is starting to sound like a monty python skit .


----------



## SarahZ

Michigan Mom said:


> Anyhoo.......some routes have great scenery, some have a PPC, some have W&C, some have Trails & Rails, some have Miss Polly, some are Superliner, some are Viewliner, some have free shampoo, they all are different from each other and singularly unique. I like that. To all be cookie cutter, same as each other would be a terrible thing, IMHO.


Nobody is saying they should be cookie cutter. I'm sure as heck not. Of course they're going to have different scenery, different crews, and different cars. I'm talking about shower caps and carnations, not Viewliner vs. Superliner.


----------



## SarahZ

Devil's Advocate said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think of it this way - Amtrak cutting these things solves their budget problem about as much as cutting Amtrak would solve the federal budget problem.
> 
> That is to say, not at all, and the cure is probably worse than the disease.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I'm not saying it's the be all, end all solution. Not one bit. I hate to think of the actual solution. I just don't think it makes financial sense to keep offering these things when they're in the red, so I understand why they're doing it. *I know it's probably just prolonging the inevitable, so it IS sad, in that sense.* A lot of people are misunderstanding me, so obviously I'm failing to communicate properly. Sorry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you don't think it makes financial sense to continue offering services that keep Amtrak in the red then you've basically written off most of the national network. I'm sorry you'd hate to think of where these John Mica style "solutions" would actually end up but that's the real issue here, not where it starts.
Click to expand...

Read the bold. That's the crux of my comment. I'm aware of the real issue, and just because I "hate to think of something" doesn't mean I'm not completely and fully aware of it. In fact, when I say that, it means I'm crystal clear on the fact and trying to put it out of my mind because it's too depressing. There's a difference between blissfully ignorant, which I'm not, and trying to remain optimistic, which I am.


----------



## WICT106

A couple of thoughts here:

Most of my train trips have been aboard the Capitol Ltd and the Silver Meteor, both which offer only the newspapers as an amenity. Watching numerous first time train travelers, they are more concerned with on time arrivals and departures ( from every single station in the system ! ) as well as being treated with courtesy and good manners. Those two factors, and Amtrak's chronic struggles with them, have had more bearings upon if a traveler takes the train again, or if they say, "never again." Newspapers, or wine and cheese tastings ? I won't miss them.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

If newspapers are cut out I would hope paper machines or paper sellers are conveniently set up at the major morning stops so those of us who enjoy a morning paper can at least buy one.


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think of it this way - Amtrak cutting these things solves their budget problem about as much as cutting Amtrak would solve the federal budget problem.
> 
> That is to say, not at all, and the cure is probably worse than the disease.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I'm not saying it's the be all, end all solution. Not one bit. I hate to think of the actual solution. I just don't think it makes financial sense to keep offering these things when they're in the red, so I understand why they're doing it. *I know it's probably just prolonging the inevitable, so it IS sad, in that sense.* A lot of people are misunderstanding me, so obviously I'm failing to communicate properly. Sorry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you don't think it makes financial sense to continue offering services that keep Amtrak in the red then you've basically written off most of the national network. I'm sorry you'd hate to think of where these John Mica style "solutions" would actually end up but that's the real issue here, not where it starts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Read the bold. That's the crux of my comment. I'm aware of the real issue, and just because I "hate to think of something" doesn't mean I'm not completely and fully aware of it. In fact, when I say that, it means I'm crystal clear on the fact and trying to put it out of my mind because it's too depressing. There's a difference between blissfully ignorant, which I'm not, and trying to remain optimistic, which I am.
Click to expand...

Sarah, I can see where you are coming from. I do not agree with all of it, but see what you are trying to convey, I think. I hope we can disagree agreeably.

I just hate to see the nickel and diming of small "extras" begin, these "extras" are strictly in the eye of the beholder, and this seems to me being a case of what my daddy used to call..."bending over a dollar to pick up a dime." Maybe the way to cut the deficit at Amtrak would be to invest in better OTP, employee training, and perhaps even more "extras" (at a cost) in order to increase revenue, instead of this small cost reduction that cuts back on the customer's travel experience on a very few routes.

Have a great evening, and I apologize if I offended you in any way tonight. Good luck with your studies.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Several posters have mentioned that Amtrak car attendants are going to have a hard time explaining this to people. While I agree, I think Amtrak (unofficially, of course) could use this situation to its advantage.

Customer: "Hey, what happened the shampoo?"

SCA: "I'm sorry sir/ma'am, but we have been forced to get rid of it."

Customer: "Why?"

SCA: "We are under a lot of pressure from Congress to cut costs."

Customer: "Cut costs? That shampoo only costs nickel!"

SCA: "You are correct, sir, the amount of money we're saving is negligible."

Customer: "Then why bother?"

SCA: "Again, sir, we're responsible to Congress for our funding, and unfortunately our Congress is composed of illiterate monkeys, raving lunatics, and slime mold. They won't let us run this business decently, and have an aneurysm whenever they see a vase of flowers on a table. They interfere in the most minute aspects of our business whenever they think it will make them look good in the polls."

Customer: "That's ridiculous! I want the name of your manager, I want to file a complaint!"

SCA: Certainly, sir. But while you're at it, you may want to complain to the actual imbeciles in Congress who force such things upon us. In particular, I think you should complain to your local congresscritter and senator. And while you're at it, you might as well write a letter to the particular reprobate who always seems to birth the largest cow over Amtrak minutiae, Rep. John Mica. He can be reached at 2187 Rayburn House Office Building Washington, DC 20515."


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Funny hypothetical.

Although unless I am mistaken Amtrak is specifically barred from soliciting support as part of their charter.

It's one big bureaucratic clusterfork where sensible people are silenced so that clueless blowhards can dictate policy.


----------



## VentureForth

D.P. Roberts said:


> Customer: "That's ridiculous! I want the name of your manager, I want to file a complaint!"
> 
> SCA: Certainly, sir. But while you're at it, you may want to complain to the actual imbeciles in Congress who force such things upon us.


Whereas this is certainly anecdotal, I'm sad to think that if every sleeper passenger and every member of AU - even June the Coach Rider - were to complain to Congress, the volume wouldn't even make a dent.
You know, the argument about consistency is interesting. We've argued here and complained to Amtrak about the inconsistency of Business Class - from the Palmetto to the Keystone to the Pacific Surfliner, none seen to offer true value for the upcharge. Amtrak shrugs its shoulders and gives us the proverbial finger.

Sarah, I love ya to death. Please don't cut back on your posting or feel like you are over thinking. This is a passionate issue, and one where there is no right answer - except perhaps eliminating free cranberry juice. My concern is that shaving perhaps $100,000 in amenities will cost Amtrak millions in the long run in reduced revenue.

I believe that Amtrak's expenses are fairly stable. Like a popular talk show host likes to say, they don't have an expense or budget problem, they have an income problem.

Just imagine, theoretically, if they were able to reduce their commitment to rebuild the line in Minot by just 1%, they could have full service chefs, flowers, chocolates and wine on every sleeper service. I'd almost even say they could bring the Sunset backand run it and the Cardinal every day and give the latter a real diner, maybe even put in a climate controlled pet coach for college bound hamsters. But that may be pushing it.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using the Android Amtrak Forums mobile app


----------



## EB_OBS

PRR 60 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the most important line in the notice this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*
> 
> 
> 
> Until I hear something official, I'm taking this to be an April Fools Joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep. This has the distinct odor of a hoax.
Click to expand...

It's not a hoax.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thank you EB_OBS.


----------



## penfrydd

D.P. Roberts said:


> Several posters have mentioned that Amtrak car attendants are going to have a hard time explaining this to people. While I agree, I think Amtrak (unofficially, of course) could use this situation to its advantage.
> 
> Customer: "Hey, what happened the shampoo?"
> 
> SCA: "I'm sorry sir/ma'am, but we have been forced to get rid of it."
> 
> Customer: "Why?"
> 
> SCA: "We are under a lot of pressure from Congress to cut costs."
> 
> Customer: "Cut costs? That shampoo only costs nickel!"
> 
> SCA: "You are correct, sir, the amount of money we're saving is negligible."
> 
> Customer: "Then why bother?"
> 
> SCA: "Again, sir, we're responsible to Congress for our funding, and unfortunately our Congress is composed of illiterate monkeys, raving lunatics, and slime mold. They won't let us run this business decently, and have an aneurysm whenever they see a vase of flowers on a table. They interfere in the most minute aspects of our business whenever they think it will make them look good in the polls."
> 
> Customer: "That's ridiculous! I want the name of your manager, I want to file a complaint!"
> 
> SCA: Certainly, sir. But while you're at it, you may want to complain to the actual imbeciles in Congress who force such things upon us. In particular, I think you should complain to your local congresscritter and senator. And while you're at it, you might as well write a letter to the particular reprobate who always seems to birth the largest cow over Amtrak minutiae, Rep. John Mica. He can be reached at 2187 Rayburn House Office Building Washington, DC 20515."


You're giving slime mold a bad name by comparing congress to it.

I work in the turf industry and see slime mold every year. While not nice and green (it's grey and black), there are those of us that think it's kinda cute!


----------



## dlagrua

Chocolate at the tables? I've only seen it once. Perhaps the crew was eating most of it.

Amenity Kits? I have never seen one or for that matter have ever seen it offered.

Wine- Hardly drink so its no big loss but many passengers appreciated it. With the price of a sleeper ticket being so high, they can't cover this?

The flower in the bud vase. Really now! The saving here has to be about 15 cents per passenger. Those flowers are put there and used for multiple table seatings. If it costs $1.50 per table and 12 people are seated for the three dinner times there ya go. Less than 15 cents per sleeper passenger. Whoopty do!

These cuts are all bunch of nonsense. Quite frankly I find them insulting as I pay a dear price for a sleeper. Boardman should get up in front of congress and explain exactly how much sleeper passengers pay.

The real problem is that our railroad infrastructure was decimated back in the 1960's and 1970's and never recovered. Two and three track mainlines in numerous areas were either totally abandoned or cut back to single track. Now with the boom in freight traffic the demand now outstrips the availability causing a logjam on the tracks and massive delays. There is no solution until more tracks are laid.


----------



## rrdude

Well, sent my snail-mail letter to Boardman, emails, posted on Amtrak's FB page, and opened a case with Cusx Relations. I guess that's about all I can do, unless anyone has any additional constructive ideas.....


----------



## Shanghai

I'm OK with the elimination of the amenities as long as Amtrak doesn't eliminate toilet tissue!!


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> You know, the argument about consistency is interesting. We've argued here and complained to Amtrak about the inconsistency of Business Class - from the Palmetto to the Keystone to the Pacific Surfliner, none seen to offer true value for the upcharge. Amtrak shrugs its shoulders and gives us the proverbial finger.


Keystones have Business Class? Since when? Or did you mean that all trains should have Business Class and the fact that Keystones don't is the inconsistency?


Shanghai said:


> I'm OK with the elimination of the amenities as long as Amtrak doesn't eliminate toilet tissue!!


I am completely with you on that one.
It would be terrible to have toilet tissue dispensers which has to be fed money using your AGR Card. But then again, just imagine how many AGR points the_traveler could collect while just crapping?  Or maybe you could use AGR points to get them for free!!!


----------



## montana mike

Or perhaps they will just "ration" each pax to 2 squares of TP when you have the need to go??

:-(


----------



## Anderson

rrdude said:


> Well, sent my snail-mail letter to Boardman, emails, posted on Amtrak's FB page, and opened a case with Cusx Relations. I guess that's about all I can do, unless anyone has any additional constructive ideas.....


You can always complain to your Congresscritter(s).


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, the argument about consistency is interesting. We've argued here and complained to Amtrak about the inconsistency of Business Class - from the Palmetto to the Keystone to the Pacific Surfliner, none seen to offer true value for the upcharge. Amtrak shrugs its shoulders and gives us the proverbial finger.
> 
> 
> 
> Keystones have Business Class? Since when? Or did you mean that all trains should have Business Class and the fact that Keystones don't is the inconsistency?
Click to expand...

Pulled a bad example out of the hat. Was thinking Pennsylvanian. How 'bout just any ol' NER? Anyway, you are right in that the Keystone should have BC.


----------



## WICT106

dlagrua said:


> Chocolate at the tables? I've only seen it once. Perhaps the crew was eating most of it.
> 
> Amenity Kits? I have never seen one or for that matter have ever seen it offered.
> 
> Wine- Hardly drink so its no big loss but many passengers appreciated it. With the price of a sleeper ticket being so high, they can't cover this?
> 
> The flower in the bud vase. Really now! The saving here has to be about 15 cents per passenger. Those flowers are put there and used for multiple table seatings. If it costs $1.50 per table and 12 people are seated for the three dinner times there ya go. Less than 15 cents per sleeper passenger. Whoopty do!
> 
> These cuts are all bunch of nonsense. Quite frankly I find them insulting as I pay a dear price for a sleeper. Boardman should get up in front of congress and explain exactly how much sleeper passengers pay.
> 
> The real problem is that our railroad infrastructure was decimated back in the 1960's and 1970's and never recovered. Two and three track mainlines in numerous areas were either totally abandoned or cut back to single track. Now with the boom in freight traffic the demand now outstrips the availability causing a logjam on the tracks and massive delays. There is no solution until more tracks are laid.


I agree with Dlagrua on this.


----------



## amamba

VentureForth said:


> Sarah, I love ya to death. Please don't cut back on your posting or feel like you are over thinking. This is a passionate issue, and one where there is no right answer - *except perhaps eliminating free cranberry juice*. My concern is that shaving perhaps $100,000 in amenities will cost Amtrak millions in the long run in reduced revenue.


NOOO!!! I still want the cranberry juice.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Shanghai said:


> I'm OK with the elimination of the amenities as long as Amtrak doesn't eliminate toilet tissue!!





jis said:


> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm OK with the elimination of the amenities as long as Amtrak doesn't eliminate toilet tissue!!
> 
> 
> 
> I am completely with you on that one.
> It would be terrible to have toilet tissue dispensers which has to be fed money using your AGR Card. But then again, just imagine how many AGR points the_traveler could collect while just crapping?  Or maybe you could use AGR points to get them for free!!!
Click to expand...




montana mike said:


> Or perhaps they will just "ration" each pax to 2 squares of TP when you have the need to go??
> 
> :-(


Oh, no! Here we go again with the TP. :lol:


----------



## rrdude

AmtrakBlue said:


> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm OK with the elimination of the amenities as long as Amtrak doesn't eliminate toilet tissue!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm OK with the elimination of the amenities as long as Amtrak doesn't eliminate toilet tissue!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am completely with you on that one.
> It would be terrible to have toilet tissue dispensers which has to be fed money using your AGR Card. But then again, just imagine how many AGR points the_traveler could collect while just crapping?  Or maybe you could use AGR points to get them for free!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or perhaps they will just "ration" each pax to 2 squares of TP when you have the need to go??
> 
> :-(
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, no! Here we go again with the TP. :lol:
Click to expand...

No problem if you carry these. http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOae1V1-Xg


----------



## AKA

Anderson said:


> I can get behind the letter in question, but given the wave of folks mentioning how erratic the amenities (other than the wine and cheese tasting) have been, I'm tempted to blame erratic implementation for them ending up on the block.


I concur


----------



## rrdude

AKA said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can get behind the letter in question, but given the wave of folks mentioning how erratic the amenities (other than the wine and cheese tasting) have been, I'm tempted to blame erratic implementation for them ending up on the block.
> 
> 
> 
> I concur
Click to expand...

So instead of _fixing_ the implementation, and erratic nature of said amenity, just kill it? That dog won't hunt with me.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

amamba said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah, I love ya to death. Please don't cut back on your posting or feel like you are over thinking. This is a passionate issue, and one where there is no right answer - *except perhaps eliminating free cranberry juice*. My concern is that shaving perhaps $100,000 in amenities will cost Amtrak millions in the long run in reduced revenue.
> 
> 
> 
> NOOO!!! I still want the cranberry juice.
Click to expand...

*SAME HERE! * It smooths out the Vodka unlike the AmOrange Juice which is pretty nasty with Vodka.


----------



## AKA

chakk said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the most important line in the notice this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*
> 
> 
> 
> Until I hear something official, I'm taking this to be an April Fools Joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep. This has the distinct odor of a hoax.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two words:
> 
> Foghorn Leghorn
Click to expand...

Over 50's got it. Under 50's ???


----------



## andersone

The passion of this topic brings out the real issue, the level of support Amtrak receives, If I might digress with experience of sixteen years providing collaborative library services to ten Appalachian Ohio counties based solely on the whim of the legislature - there are a couple of rules I developed.

1) No matter how you feel about a legislator, calling them names is not scoring points. Honest disagreement is not an issue but using inflammatory language well get you no where.

2) Promote the service provided, especially to the under served. This is especially important to the LD routes with large chunks of very underpopulated territory to cross. The more stories you can tell about the only way grandma sees the grand-kids is EB the better off you are.

3) The more information you can succinctly provide the better. My testimony to the legislature never lasted more than four minutes (unless they asked questions) and my handouts were always a single side of a sheet of paper. My colleagues would carry on and provide booklets without understanding the legislator (most usually) only need to know one or two good things to say about his vote of support - if indeed they were ever questioned.

4) For identified foes treat them with respect (see 1 above) and get THEIR constituents to become a voice. In every county I had someone who contacted the legislator for us. Folks who had supported them in their district could get much closer much more effectively than I ever could.

5) For the foes it is OK to create a volume approach, get as many folks (especially from their district) to write a simple letter saying " only way grandma sees the grand-kids is EB" - insert a variation her. I once had the president of one of the legislative branches call me and tell me enough with the letters, we were getting our funding !

6) Invest time with the legislators aides - they are the ones with advise and consent power. We used to host a legislative luncheon every year, and I invited the aides because they never got invited to anything.

7) Be honest and don't overstate issues. There is enough spin in Washington to run the dryer until the end of time. Simply stated truths get you a lot further than hyperbole.

To me the message I would create is "Make First Class Valuable" or "Long Distance Trains Take Care of Those Who No One Else Cares For". (No acronyms for the masses!! Even the folks in La Crosse don't know they are "LCE".

thanks for listening, and know I love you all, life is precious thing,, and Amtrak only makes it more pleasant


----------



## Train Rider

I've been at the EB wine and cheese three times and I won't miss it. It was something to do, but the staff didn't care and we were herded in and out like cattle because of the timing between meals and stops. You get to meet some folks, but I also had five other opportunities to meet the same folks in the dining car during mealtimes.

The amenity bags are no big deal either -- most folks travel with that stuff anyway.

The chocolate was nasty. If you are going to serve such a thing, then it better be good. If not, then leave it out.

The common juice cartons just seem like diarrhea waiting to happen -- I stay away from it and bring my own mixers. Because if you know that bathroom is nasty, then you know the folks making it nasty aren't washing their hands.

I will miss the champagne, but I bring my own stuff for the rest of the trip anyway.


----------



## person_who_forgets_name

I am sad to see the going away of the "extras". I have traveled on EB, CZ, CS, SWC, TE and SJ and love that each one is different. I loved receiving my bag of toiletries and still have the bag and it brings fond memories of our trip. I still have the small bottles of Champagne in our fridge which again bring back memories. I love getting the local paper and sitting in our room looking at the different going-ons in different parts of the country (and when we different receive a paper I remember missing it). I did notice the flowers on the table and it made me feel like we were having a nicer meal than just grabbing something from the cafe car and sitting at one of the lounge tables. I attended the W&C gathering and discovered I don't like wine, but found some new cheeses I did....lol. I guess I am one of the few who doesn't drink the coffee in the sleeping car, but did drink the cranberry juice. What I'm trying to say is that it is the "little things" that bring us back to the sleeping cars when we could save $$$ going coach.


----------



## KC Ghost Rider

The news is official. Amtrak is going to cut the aforementioned amenities and that is from Amtrak Customer Relations. I already have my case # over the promised wine and cheese tasting on the LSL that was supposedly offered because there is no dinner service (That is how is was told to me when I bought the ticket). The Customer Relations agent was real nice and said "if anything goes wrong on your trip just call back with your case # and you will received a voucher". I rather have what was promised, but this will be good too.


----------



## Anderson

rrdude said:


> AKA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can get behind the letter in question, but given the wave of folks mentioning how erratic the amenities (other than the wine and cheese tasting) have been, I'm tempted to blame erratic implementation for them ending up on the block.
> 
> 
> 
> I concur
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So instead of _fixing_ the implementation, and erratic nature of said amenity, just kill it? That dog won't hunt with me.
Click to expand...

All else being equal, fixing might have happened. However, with political pressure playing out like it has been over the last few years, killing off some dubiously-implemented features found to have little to no impact would be the path of least resistance. Not ideal, true, but also not surprising...and if Amtrak couldn't manage stable implementation, it might have been deemed not worth the effort to try and straighten some of the perks out.


----------



## Anderson

By the way, does anybody know when the amenity kits and chocolate squares were implemented? I know the wine and cheese receptions and complementary champagne have been a thing for a while, and I think the paper has as well.


----------



## andersone

i can remember getting a paper on the CZ in the 80's in those years i was taking it six and seven times ,,,, god i miss that job


----------



## D.P. Roberts

KC Ghost Rider said:


> The news is official. Amtrak is going to cut the aforementioned amenities and that is from Amtrak Customer Relations. I already have my case # over the promised wine and cheese tasting on the LSL that was supposedly offered because there is no dinner service (That is how is was told to me when I bought the ticket). The Customer Relations agent was real nice and said "if anything goes wrong on your trip just call back with your case # and you will received a voucher". I rather have what was promised, but this will be good too.


Amtrak's website still mentions all those things. For example, the description of the CS states that "Each sleeping car passenger will receive ... a special welcome gift and a personal amenities kit that includes shampoo, soaps and lotions. A daily tasting of local wines and artisan cheeses is available in the refurbished Pacific Parlour Car."

So, if we've purchased tickets with the expectation that we're going to receive these things, and they're going to be gone by the time we ride the train, we can get something back from Customer Relations?

I'm curious as to what sort of compensation they're offering, and whether this is worth the effort or not.


----------



## amtkstn

Last few times I have rode sleeper there was almost always a paper in the morning. It really is not a thing I really need. I spend about five minutes on it and I am finished with it. Most news I get on my iphone


----------



## MiRider

I'm not okay with any one of these eliminations.

As crappy and non-first class like as the sleeping car experience is, the original amenities should have been on every LD route from the beginning.

For the prices they charge, they should be adding additional amenities - not removing anything.

Oh, and the only juice I ever drink on the train is cranberry - OJ and Apple are just too sweet and sticky for my liking.

On my 2 trips last week, it was already unavailable in the sleeper.

I don't read actual newspapers anymore so getting one on the train has always been a little treat.


----------



## rrdude

D.P. Roberts said:


> KC Ghost Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> The news is official. Amtrak is going to cut the aforementioned amenities and that is from Amtrak Customer Relations. I already have my case # over the promised wine and cheese tasting on the LSL that was supposedly offered because there is no dinner service (That is how is was told to me when I bought the ticket). The Customer Relations agent was real nice and said "if anything goes wrong on your trip just call back with your case # and you will received a voucher". I rather have what was promised, but this will be good too.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's website still mentions all those things. For example, the description of the CS states that "Each sleeping car passenger will receive ... a special welcome gift and a personal amenities kit that includes shampoo, soaps and lotions. A daily tasting of local wines and artisan cheeses is available in the refurbished Pacific Parlour Car."
> 
> So, if we've purchased tickets with the expectation that we're going to receive these things, and they're going to be gone by the time we ride the train, we can get something back from Customer Relations?
> 
> I'm curious as to what sort of compensation they're offering, and whether this is worth the effort or not.
Click to expand...

Same question I asked, when I talked to CR today. She was very nice, didn't know about the "cuts", asked where I heard, (I told her I was a died-in-the-wool-foamer, nah, mentioned that I saw a FB post on Amtrak's FB page) She looked up an email, and confirmed the dates / cuts. Said she'd open a case, and could tell that CR dept has received "quite few other phone calls" on this subject. Really, really, professional. Said if i had any complaints about my trip, even if it was something as little as no flowers or no Wine & Cheese reception, to call CR afterwords, and discuss with them.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Hopefully it will not get to the point we have to bring our own dishes to the Diner. Or worse yet a pocketful of change in the sense of the_* Southern Pacific Automatic Buffet Car*_.

http://www.mhodistributors.com/buffet-car.jpg


----------



## leemell

Nathanael said:


> Removing the wine and cheese thing on the LSL is an error, and probably due to overreaction to the idiocy from Mica. This "reception" exists only because the LSL lost its dinner, and the diner employees are otherwise being paid, but doing absolutely nothing, that evening. The cost is trivial.
> 
> When will the LSL schedule get fixed to restore dinner? Amtrak was trying to do that in the LSL PIP and in the Capitol Limited PIP and it needs to happen ASAP. And if the schedule change doesn't happen, Amtrak needs to start offering dinner east of Albany, where the situation is unsatisfactory.
> 
> I don't have a problem with dropping any of the special things on the Empire Builder or Coast Starlight. I've been on both trains, and managed to not get several of the items (the chocolate square etc.), while the wine tastings seemed to encourage drunkenness, which wasn't good. (The LSL event, anyone who got drunk promptly slept it off.)
> 
> The cranberry juice looks like a practical measure; it was probably being underused and having to be tossed due to being expired.
> 
> The newspapers were obsolete thanks to wireless Internet news.
> 
> The flowers, sitting on paper tablecloths next to plastic dishes, always felt a bit too much like putting lipstick on a pig. If we could get real dishes and cloth tablecloths, I'd value that a lot more.


I've been on the CS 6 or 7 times and have yet to anyone get drunk at the wine tasting. Internet on the EB, you've got to be kidding.


----------



## EB_OBS

Anderson said:


> By the way, does anybody know when the amenity kits and chocolate squares were implemented? I know the wine and cheese receptions and complementary champagne have been a thing for a while, and I think the paper has as well.


I believe it was around three years ago or possibly even four that the little suede amenity bag and chocolate were introduced.


----------



## fairviewroad

Nathanael said:


> The newspapers were obsolete thanks to wireless Internet news.


Good luck pulling up the internet on your smart phone heading west out of Minot or north out of Klamath Falls (two locations

where morning papers are typically loaded). At any rate, millions of Americans still read a daily paper. By your logic, the entire

train itself is obsolete thanks to the invention of commercial aviation.



Anderson said:


> By the way, does anybody know when the amenity kits and chocolate squares were implemented? I know the wine and cheese receptions and complementary champagne have been a thing for a while, and I think the paper has as well.


I'm _guessing_ the concept of providing a daily newspaper to first class passengers has existed for more than a century. And yes, many travelers read

the news on their smartphones (when service is available) but of course those passengers are expected to provide their own device.


----------



## Al_Gore

Newspaper business has been dead quite some time now. Radio is barely hanging on.


----------



## VentureForth

fairviewroad said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> The newspapers were obsolete thanks to wireless Internet news.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck pulling up the internet on your smart phone heading west out of Minot or north out of Klamath Falls (two locations
> 
> where morning papers are typically loaded). At any rate, millions of Americans still read a daily paper. By your logic, the entire
> 
> train itself is obsolete thanks to the invention of commercial aviation.
Click to expand...

Commercial Aviation? Heck - rail travel started being a novelty with the affordable family car. That was what really drove the spikes. Commercial aviation didn't become affordable until deregulation in the late 70's.


----------



## yarrow

rrdude said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KC Ghost Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> The news is official. Amtrak is going to cut the aforementioned amenities and that is from Amtrak Customer Relations. I already have my case # over the promised wine and cheese tasting on the LSL that was supposedly offered because there is no dinner service (That is how is was told to me when I bought the ticket). The Customer Relations agent was real nice and said "if anything goes wrong on your trip just call back with your case # and you will received a voucher". I rather have what was promised, but this will be good too.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's website still mentions all those things. For example, the description of the CS states that "Each sleeping car passenger will receive ... a special welcome gift and a personal amenities kit that includes shampoo, soaps and lotions. A daily tasting of local wines and artisan cheeses is available in the refurbished Pacific Parlour Car."
> 
> So, if we've purchased tickets with the expectation that we're going to receive these things, and they're going to be gone by the time we ride the train, we can get something back from Customer Relations?
> 
> I'm curious as to what sort of compensation they're offering, and whether this is worth the effort or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same question I asked, when I talked to CR today. She was very nice, didn't know about the "cuts", asked where I heard, (I told her I was a died-in-the-wool-foamer, nah, mentioned that I saw a FB post on Amtrak's FB page) She looked up an email, and confirmed the dates / cuts. Said she'd open a case, and could tell that CR dept has received "quite few other phone calls" on this subject. Really, really, professional. Said if i had any complaints about my trip, even if it was something as little as no flowers or no Wine & Cheese reception, to call CR afterwords, and discuss with them.
Click to expand...

so, amtrak is willing to give in travel voucher form probably initially more than they save on their cute little cuts. not to mention the loss of customer goodwill which seems to be a concept most amtrak management doesn't have time for


----------



## Larry H.

MiRider said:


> I'm not okay with any one of these eliminations.
> 
> As crappy and non-first class like as the sleeping car experience is, the original amenities should have been on every LD route from the beginning.
> 
> For the prices they charge, they should be adding additional amenities - not removing anything.
> 
> Oh, and the only juice I ever drink on the train is cranberry - OJ and Apple are just too sweet and sticky for my liking.
> 
> On my 2 trips last week, it was already unavailable in the sleeper.
> 
> I don't read actual newspapers anymore so getting one on the train has always been a little treat.


I think the rail traveling public for some time has been split between those who are somewhat older and recall when quality and service were the norm, not the exception, and those who simply are happy to have nearly anything that moves on rails..

For starters the entire premise that Amtrak could make a profit was a mistake at the start. Our nation as some have pointed out never worries about covering their expenses at nearly any point any longer. Now we have laws that even may encourage people to live off others and get free health care and just about everything else. Balance that on the other end where Amtrak has constantly increased the cost of sleeper service while downgrading the service over many years. Not to mention the poor quality of the cars them selves at this point. The days of the high grade service of the Santa Fe or Panama Limited, Twentieth Century have been completely lost. Pride in operation is a thing of the past. Perhaps the Congress should try eliminating their private subsidized food service, lounges and barber shop. Not to mention the airline service and limousine service paid for by the public.. Then there are the million dollar conferences with fancy entertainment and outrageous expense for meals. But on Amtrak, well the public should just be grateful for subpar service at huge cost..

Larry


----------



## rrdude

Larry H. said:


> MiRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not okay with any one of these eliminations.
> 
> As crappy and non-first class like as the sleeping car experience is, the original amenities should have been on every LD route from the beginning.
> 
> For the prices they charge, they should be adding additional amenities - not removing anything.
> 
> Oh, and the only juice I ever drink on the train is cranberry - OJ and Apple are just too sweet and sticky for my liking.
> 
> On my 2 trips last week, it was already unavailable in the sleeper.
> 
> I don't read actual newspapers anymore so getting one on the train has always been a little treat.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the rail traveling public for some time _*has been split between those who are somewhat older and recall when quality and service were the norm, not the exception, and those who simply are happy to have nearly anything that moves on rails..*_
> 
> For starters the entire premise that Amtrak could make a profit was a mistake at the start. Our nation as some have pointed out never worries about covering their expenses at nearly any point any longer. Now we have laws that even may encourage people to live off others and get free health care and just about everything else. Balance that on the other end where Amtrak has constantly increased the cost of sleeper service while downgrading the service over many years. Not to mention the poor quality of the cars them selves at this point. The days of the high grade service of the Santa Fe or Panama Limited, Twentieth Century have been completely lost. Pride in operation is a thing of the past. Perhaps the Congress should try eliminating their private subsidized food service, lounges and barber shop. Not to mention the airline service and limousine service paid for by the public.. Then there are the million dollar conferences with fancy entertainment and outrageous expense for meals. But on Amtrak, well the public should just be grateful for subpar service at huge cost..
> 
> Larry
Click to expand...

I've pretty much come to the same conclusion Larry. However, I guess I'm just stoopid and old-fashioned, as I hate to see these further cuts just "silently slip away into the night...." Damn I wish i could trade, even at a deep discount, my AGR points for ViaRail points.

Having worked for Amtrak as a kid, I know what "above and beyond" service can mean, to the customer, the company, and the employee. It just boggles my mind that *some*one in Amtrak LD management doesn't "get" it these days. I guess I think Amtrak ran the LD's better when they had the Vertical Business Units for LD, and gave a great deal of autonomy to the Route or Brand Managers. Now everything _seems_ to just come down from corporate.

I "get" that uniform standards would be the ideal, but it's never really been that way at Amtrak, AFAIK. Some things *have* to be standardized, like security, loss-prevention, accounting, etc., but others, such as the topic of this thread, could really flourish with regional or brand differences.

I'm 'bout to stop kicking this dying horse, and roll over, and join the new "mainstream" of America, and lower my standards to the "I don't care about that" crowd...... If only....


----------



## the Other Mike

I find it interesting that the same people who make a 30 item list of things to pack ( like duct tape, paperclips, strip cord etc) are so upset by not getting their piece of candy, cheap wine, shampoo and newspapers with 12 to 24 hour old news. 

I always worry about my train being canceled or the dreaded bus. Other than that, do these other things really matter ? 

Maybe because I once spent 69 days in the hospital or because I rode out Katrina and it's aftermath ?

I'm thrilled to have a place to sleep and take a shower. :hi: While I wouldn't be thrilled with the beef stew and potatos, if I had to "endure it for 2 days, so what ? On the other hand I'd be really pissed if my train was canceled :angry:

I can see getting upset if they were taking the lounge cars or diners out of service, but old newspapers and cheap wine ?

Seriously ? I'd hate to be on a train with some of you who complain so much.

( edit to add ) FLAME SHIELDS UP :blink:


----------



## fairviewroad

the Other Mike said:


> newspapers with 12 to 24 hour old news.


Have you ever read a book? Because the material in there is sometimes years, even decades old. 

Reading a newspaper (a good one, that is) isn't a way to simply find out "what has happened in the past 24 hours" but rather to

enjoy a good read, interesting perspectives, feature stories, etc.


----------



## Randy

fairviewroad said:


> the Other Mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> newspapers with 12 to 24 hour old news.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever read a book? Because the material in there is sometimes years, even decades old.
> 
> Reading a newspaper (a good one, that is) isn't a way to simply find out "what has happened in the past 24 hours" but rather to
> 
> enjoy a good read, interesting perspectives, feature stories, etc.
Click to expand...

COMICS!


----------



## rrdude

the Other Mike said:


> I find it interesting that the same people who make a 30 item list of things to pack ( like duct tape, paperclips, strip cord etc) are so upset by not getting their piece of candy, cheap wine, shampoo and newspapers with 12 to 24 hour old news.
> 
> I always worry about my train being canceled or the dreaded bus. Other than that, do these other things really matter ?
> 
> Maybe because I once spent 69 days in the hospital or because I rode out Katrina and it's aftermath ?
> 
> I'm thrilled to have a place to sleep and take a shower. :hi: While I wouldn't be thrilled with the beef stew and potatos, if I had to "endure it for 2 days, so what ? On the other hand I'd be really pissed if my train was canceled :angry:
> 
> I can see getting upset if they were taking the lounge cars or diners out of service, but old newspapers and cheap wine ?
> 
> Seriously ? I'd hate to be on a train with some of you who complain so much.
> 
> ( edit to add ) FLAME SHIELDS UP :blink:


OtherMike, I don't think it's so much as complaining about not ever getting these, hell they were few and far between in my travels. But when I DID get them, it really added a bonus to the trip.

I'm an active backpacker myself, so I am more than used to "roughing it". But when one is paying the fees that we do for a sleeper, I just thing it should be more than a flat bed and an average meal. Period.


----------



## Train rider

the Other Mike said:


> I find it interesting that the same people who make a 30 item list of things to pack ( like duct tape, paperclips, strip cord etc) are so upset by not getting their piece of candy, cheap wine, shampoo and newspapers with 12 to 24 hour old news.
> 
> I always worry about my train being canceled or the dreaded bus. Other than that, do these other things really matter ?
> 
> Maybe because I once spent 69 days in the hospital or because I rode out Katrina and it's aftermath ?
> 
> I'm thrilled to have a place to sleep and take a shower. :hi: While I wouldn't be thrilled with the beef stew and potatos, if I had to "endure it for 2 days, so what ? On the other hand I'd be really pissed if my train was canceled :angry:
> 
> I can see getting upset if they were taking the lounge cars or diners out of service, but old newspapers and cheap wine ?
> 
> Seriously ? I'd hate to be on a train with some of you who complain so much.
> 
> ( edit to add ) FLAME SHIELDS UP :blink:


----------



## leemell

Al_Gore said:


> Newspaper business has been dead quite some time now. Radio is barely hanging on.


I think the local 7-11s, grocery stores would that novel since all still carry at least four different papers.


----------



## RalphCT

Andersone makes very good points that we all should read and heed.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## jebr

While I'm sad to see these things go, too, I'm frankly not that worried about most of them. While I think there should be some meal for the LSL, a lot of these removals will probably help Amtrak survive in this political climate. It's a lot easier for Amtrak to justify a subsidy when anti-rail opponents can't sling the "wine and cheese reception" and the "champagne for passengers when they board" as ammunition on Amtrak's "wasteful government spending." Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's political reality today, and only new representatives in Congress will change that.

I'm also surprised by the outrage over this versus some of the other issues Amtrak has, especially when it was brought up on this board that they're pulling all tickets on the NEC at once and not pulling each individual ticket, thus rendering useless someone's ticket should they want to actually use Amtrak's refund policy after-the-fact. That's something that will not only turn a passenger off for quite some time (if not life,) but it could get them to a point of calling their Congressperson and putting Amtrak in a *very* negative light. Amtrak would have no defense in that case, either, unlike some other issues Amtrak has (such as when trains are perpetually delayed due to freight traffic.)


----------



## rrdude

None of these "niggling issues" will make one bit of difference on saving or not, any Amtrak train, route, or service.

It's just a short-sighted, feeble attempt, IMHO, to kow-tow to someone who they think has political "pull".

It's a game of checkers per se


----------



## D.P. Roberts

fairviewroad said:


> Reading a newspaper (a good one, that is) isn't a way to simply find out "what has happened in the past 24 hours" but rather to enjoy a good read, interesting perspectives, feature stories, etc.


It would be interesting to read those things in a newspaper, but unfortunately Amtrak provided USA Today, so your point is moot.

And yes, newspapers are dying. I have sold newspapers (among other items) for the last 15 years, and the dropoff in newspaper sales has been dramatic.

Think of it this way. Your local convenience store, bookstore, grocery store, etc. makes maybe 5 cents on every newspaper it sells. Demand is down to 3-4 papers per day at most outlets. That's 15 cents per day in profit - is it really worthwhile to devote your floor space to something like that?

Then, think about the delivery. A driver has to go to your location to drop off those 5 papers. His company probably also makes a little more per paper, but even if he was collecting all the money from that delivery - say, a dollar per paper, for 3 papers - how worthwhile is it to make that delivery stop for only three bucks?

Do you think Coke delivery drivers make a stop to deliver one case, or a beer delivery driver stops to drop off a six pack? No way.

So, delivery companies have come and gone over the years. Even stores that want to provide newspapers (basically as a customer convenience) often can't find a distributor willing to take the time (and expense) to deliver them.

I imagine Amtrak is in a similar boat - not just with newspapers, but with these other conveniences (flowers, amenity bags, etc.) The items themselves are of such a low dollar value that MOST (non-AU) customers won't notice or care that they're gone, but the cost savings in making contracts, gathering them, etc. might actually be substantial.


----------



## dart330

I will say I am sad to see these go. These little things really do leave an impression on the non-rail advocate. Nearly everyone I have introduced to Amtrak thought the wine & cheese and champagne was one of highlights of the trip and the main perk they tell their friends and family about.

I will always remember my first overnight trip on the SWC. Waking up and having a newspaper slide under the door as we departed Flagstaff. Just one of the things that really made this mode of travel special.

I only recall having cranberry juice available once or twice in the sleeper. It is the best of the three juices for mixing with your private stock.

Only received the chocolate and amenities bag on the CS, but they were very welcome.


----------



## nferr

fairviewroad said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, Motel 6 offers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amenities Available at Every Motel 6 Location:
> 
> Kids Stay Free** *[Half price on Amtrak]*
> 
> Pets Welcome *[Not on Amtrak, though the occasional hamster is okay]*
> 
> Free Expanded Cable *[Not on Amtrak]*
> 
> Free Local Phone* *[Amtrak operates on a "bring your own phone" basis]*
> 
> Free Morning Coffee *[The one and only amenity that Motel 6 shares with LD trains  *]
> 
> Wi-Fi Internet Access*** *[Not on Amtrak LD trains, except spotty service on the PPC]*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I've never seen a motel six that rolled cross country. Have you?


----------



## tonys96

D.P. Roberts said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading a newspaper (a good one, that is) isn't a way to simply find out "what has happened in the past 24 hours" but rather to enjoy a good read, interesting perspectives, feature stories, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be interesting to read those things in a newspaper, but unfortunately Amtrak provided USA Today, so your point is moot.
Click to expand...

On our CS/EB trip this summer, we got a local paper from Klamath Falls, and somewhere else, maybe Minot?


----------



## domefoamer

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Next time I'm booked on a train with Diner I guess I could run down to the Dollar Store or Hobby Lobby and pick up a few inexpensive plastic flowers in vases and leave them in the Diner. If enough of us did that we could repopulate all the Diners system wide :unsure: ^_^


That's exactly what I plan to do when I take the CZ and CS next month! I hope the diner staff gets a kick out of that.

I suspect that the wine tasting was the biggest target here, sounding like an effete, elite amenity. Fine, charge $5 for it. The soap and shampoo bags are just something you expect-- I can't recall the last motel that lacked this, and I usually choose the cheaper places. Newspapers have gotten quite expensive, sometimes $2 per copy, and I see how that would add up. Of all these perks, I'd expect it was the most expensive. I'd rather have a local newspaper anyway, so I hope they remain available at major stations.

Of all the deleted amenities, it's those little table flowers that agitate me the most. You ought to get a week's worth of use out of an average artificial flower, at least. That week might include 18 meal seatings x 4 people. So seventy-two folks get enjoyment from that puny little 50-cent flower. Give me a break!


----------



## zepherdude

When I first joined this fine group, all anyone could talk about was the loss of service from Orlando to New Orleans, what train is that, Sunset Limited. Massive indignation, riots, hell fire and brimstone. Everyone was stoning Peter Gunn and vowing never to ride Amtrak again. Well, we made it through that. We do not like stuff taken away, we don't like plastic plates, we don't like the lack of linen, we don't like the menu, now we don't like the high tea service gone where we all get a free glass of wine. I suspect this entire issue will be forgotten two months after it is pulled.

I have only seen this issue discussed here and members on other boards really hate everything. To me, this is all about cost efficiency and maybe better cross utilization of staff and food and beverage products, plus the need for an extra clean-up in the dining car. Maybe fifty other reasons I can't think of. Does no one think this issue was discussed for months and offered to focus groups and cost accounting measured. Do you think all the big dogs got together one night at Joe's and said GET RID OF IT!!! This was planned and all this issues discussed here were discussed.

Everyone takes things so personal, so slap in the face like. Its not personal at all, its business. Airlines now tell unhappy passengers that they are free to fly another airline. Same here, you are free to travel another train. For my part, when I upgrade to a roomette, I get what I pay for.


----------



## domefoamer

fairviewroad said:


> the Other Mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> newspapers with 12 to 24 hour old news.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever read a book? Because the material in there is sometimes years, even decades old.
> 
> Reading a newspaper (a good one, that is) isn't a way to simply find out "what has happened in the past 24 hours" but rather to
> 
> enjoy a good read, interesting perspectives, feature stories, etc.
Click to expand...

I love to see local newspapers when I travel, to get some of the flavor of the communities passing by outside the windows. Those feature stories, police blotter items, and city council debates rarely make it to the internet, and are hard to find. It's part of the whole idea of travel, and being in a different place for a while.


----------



## greatcats

Just reading the SP buffet car menu. I could go for the $1.00 martini.


----------



## railiner

Speaking of amenities....not having travelled in a sleeper for quite a while, I was wondering if they still provided a "bedtime sweet"? In the past, a couple of chocolate mints.

If they have eliminated them, I wonder if Corporate would frown if an enterprising sleeper attendant would purchase and distribute them at his or her own expense?

A cheap investment that could pay nice dividends in tips at the end of the run for that attendant. I could see them against it for possible product liability issues, or passenger's receiving them expecting them all the time, and then complaining if not getting them.......


----------



## PRR 60

railiner said:


> Speaking of amenities....not having travelled in a sleeper for quite a while, I was wondering if they still provided a "bedtime sweet"? In the past, a couple of chocolate mints.
> 
> If they have eliminated them, I wonder if Corporate would frown if an enterprising sleeper attendant would purchase and distribute them at his or her own expense?
> 
> A cheap investment that could pay nice dividends in tips at the end of the run for that attendant. I could see them against it for possible product liability issues, or passenger's receiving them expecting them all the time, and then complaining if not getting them.......


Yes, they would frown upon that just as they prohibit chefs from adding self-purchased spices and other items to the standard recipes. The issue is food safety and liability. Amtrak is responsible for the safety of all food served by Amtrak staff. Accordingly, Amtrak only allows food items that it approves and purchases.


----------



## Nathanael

zepherdude said:


> Everyone takes things so personal, so slap in the face like. Its not personal at all, its business. Airlines now tell unhappy passengers that they are free to fly another airline.


And I stopped flying entirely.

It's just business.

You can run the business competently. Or you can use the airline business model, which is one of going bankrupt every few years and demanding a bailout, while driving away customers, and meanwhile claiming that you are a for-profit competitive business. I personally have little or no respect for that business model.


----------



## Nathanael

PRR 60 said:


> Yes, they would frown upon that just as they prohibit chefs from adding self-purchased spices and other items to the standard recipes. The issue is food safety and liability. Amtrak is responsible for the safety of all food served by Amtrak staff. Accordingly, Amtrak only allows food items that it approves and purchases.


Which is fine, except... if you are paranoid about liability and enforce such a policy, then *you* the *corporate management* have to provide all the stuff which you don't allow the employees to provide themselves. Or throw away revenue.

The alternative is to have customers go away thinking that they're being overcharged.

People's reactions are weird -- it's well documented in the hospitality industry that a bunch of really cheap "frills" have a large effect on customers' perception of "value for money".


----------



## roomette

PRR 60 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of amenities....not having travelled in a sleeper for quite a while, I was wondering if they still provided a "bedtime sweet"? In the past, a couple of chocolate mints.
> 
> If they have eliminated them, I wonder if Corporate would frown if an enterprising sleeper attendant would purchase and distribute them at his or her own expense?
> 
> A cheap investment that could pay nice dividends in tips at the end of the run for that attendant. I could see them against it for possible product liability issues, or passenger's receiving them expecting them all the time, and then complaining if not getting them.......
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they would frown upon that just as they prohibit chefs from adding self-purchased spices and other items to the standard recipes. The issue is food safety and liability. Amtrak is responsible for the safety of all food served by Amtrak staff. Accordingly, Amtrak only allows food items that it approves and purchases.
Click to expand...

I have had more than one SCA provide apples and bananas near the coffee.


----------



## vacationer1954

I see these things in the context of, "If they really wanted to save money, they'd cancel LD service (except in the northeast)." I'm not convinced that any of these amenities attract more revenue than they cost, and in the absence of that I don't have a good argument for keeping them.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/2013/AmtrakRoutes


----------



## VentureForth

roomette said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of amenities....not having travelled in a sleeper for quite a while, I was wondering if they still provided a "bedtime sweet"? In the past, a couple of chocolate mints.
> 
> If they have eliminated them, I wonder if Corporate would frown if an enterprising sleeper attendant would purchase and distribute them at his or her own expense?
> 
> A cheap investment that could pay nice dividends in tips at the end of the run for that attendant. I could see them against it for possible product liability issues, or passenger's receiving them expecting them all the time, and then complaining if not getting them.......
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they would frown upon that just as they prohibit chefs from adding self-purchased spices and other items to the standard recipes. The issue is food safety and liability. Amtrak is responsible for the safety of all food served by Amtrak staff. Accordingly, Amtrak only allows food items that it approves and purchases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have had more than one SCA provide apples and bananas near the coffee.
Click to expand...

And this is done at risk. Imagine a person getting sick. They call Amtrak. "Hey! Those bananas you have me in my sleeper car made me sick!" "We don't provide bananas." "Yes you do. I ate one, and I'm sick now." "Alrighty, what's train number and the name of your attendant?"
...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using the Android Amtrak Forums mobile app


----------



## Anderson

There are probably some ways around those issues, at least in part. For one, Amtrak could always encourage innovation through some process (i.e. put a pot of money out there to allow certain things to be attempted, but require a certain level of documentation and sourcing control; successful innovations get a bonus and get standardized).

On minor benefits, Amtrak really ought to consider trying to work up some studies showing "If we spend $5 per sleeper passenger on a wine tasting, we add X number of riders, can increase sleeper fares by Y, and can therefore effectively increase sleeper revenue by Z."

By the way, it's very likely Amtrak wasn't paying $2/paper. They likely had a bulk deal with their providers (after all, they were likely buying 50-100 papers/day in some cities, which isn't a trivial number...for The Forum (out of Fargo), 50 copies would be about 0.1% of total circulation. The Reno Gazette-Journal is a similar case. It's probably the same for a lot of the other smaller-town papers Amtrak uses in places: Amtrak could easily be one of their top ten clients. Likewise, with the USA Today, Amtrak likely gets a "hotel-style" bulk deal. Ditto the major papers on the NEC, for that matter. From what I can tell based on hotel prices, $.50-$.75/paper would be closer to Amtrak's price.


----------



## KC Ghost Rider

zepherdude said:


> When I first joined this fine group, all anyone could talk about was the loss of service from Orlando to New Orleans, what train is that, Sunset Limited. Massive indignation, riots, hell fire and brimstone. Everyone was stoning Peter Gunn and vowing never to ride Amtrak again. Well, we made it through that. We do not like stuff taken away, we don't like plastic plates, we don't like the lack of linen, we don't like the menu, now we don't like the high tea service gone where we all get a free glass of wine. I suspect this entire issue will be forgotten two months after it is pulled.
> 
> I have only seen this issue discussed here and members on other boards really hate everything. To me, this is all about cost efficiency and maybe better cross utilization of staff and food and beverage products, plus the need for an extra clean-up in the dining car. Maybe fifty other reasons I can't think of. Does no one think this issue was discussed for months and offered to focus groups and cost accounting measured. Do you think all the big dogs got together one night at Joe's and said GET RID OF IT!!! This was planned and all this issues discussed here were discussed.
> 
> Everyone takes things so personal, so slap in the face like. Its not personal at all, its business. Airlines now tell unhappy passengers that they are free to fly another airline. Same here, you are free to travel another train. For my part, when I upgrade to a roomette, *I get what I pay for*.


Hmm...I did consider the whole paragraph and even the sentence as a whole, so I didn't take it out of context. However, the part I want to respond to is in bold. You may have gotten what you paid for. I get that. I paid for a roomette too, on the LSL, and the agent who sold me the ticket said I would be boarding the train early for a wine and cheese reception. This agent stated that this was done because there was no dinner service out of Chicago due to the hour. Therefore, I paid for the reception with my purchase of the roomette. I am not getting what I paid for. Usually, a responsible company will post an effective cut off date well in advance and warn a customer that after such and such a date this service will no longer be available. In my case, I brought it to Amtrak's Customer Relations people who had no clue that this was even happening. This was not posted on their FB page or at Amtrak.com as a service no longer offered. Until yesterday, the website still mentioned the wine and cheese receptions and the time table for the LSL mentioned the early boarding for drinks and snacks (We all know its wine and cheese). This is just bad business practice. It was done in secret. There was no phone calls, emails, or letters saying "Sorry, the following amenities will be discontinued on the following dates". No, someone posted a confidential company notice here and now we are discussing it. "I get what I pay for"...well, sir, you might have, but I certainly did not!


----------



## rrdude

KC Ghost Rider said:


> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I first joined this fine group, all anyone could talk about was the loss of service from Orlando to New Orleans, what train is that, Sunset Limited. Massive indignation, riots, hell fire and brimstone. Everyone was stoning Peter Gunn and vowing never to ride Amtrak again. Well, we made it through that. We do not like stuff taken away, we don't like plastic plates, we don't like the lack of linen, we don't like the menu, now we don't like the high tea service gone where we all get a free glass of wine. I suspect this entire issue will be forgotten two months after it is pulled.
> 
> I have only seen this issue discussed here and members on other boards really hate everything. To me, this is all about cost efficiency and maybe better cross utilization of staff and food and beverage products, plus the need for an extra clean-up in the dining car. Maybe fifty other reasons I can't think of. Does no one think this issue was discussed for months and offered to focus groups and cost accounting measured. Do you think all the big dogs got together one night at Joe's and said GET RID OF IT!!! This was planned and all this issues discussed here were discussed.
> 
> Everyone takes things so personal, so slap in the face like. Its not personal at all, its business. Airlines now tell unhappy passengers that they are free to fly another airline. Same here, you are free to travel another train. For my part, when I upgrade to a roomette, *I get what I pay for*.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...I did consider the whole paragraph and even the sentence as a whole, so I didn't take it out of context. However, the part I want to respond to is in bold. You may have gotten what you paid for. I get that. I paid for a roomette too, on the LSL, and the agent who sold me the ticket said I would be boarding the train early for a wine and cheese reception. This agent stated that this was done because there was no dinner service out of Chicago due to the hour. Therefore, I paid for the reception with my purchase of the roomette. I am not getting what I paid for. Usually, a responsible company will post an effective cut off date well in advance and warn a customer that after such and such a date this service will no longer be available. In my case, I brought it to Amtrak's Customer Relations people who had no clue that this was even happening. This was not posted on their FB page or at Amtrak.com as a service no longer offered. Until yesterday, the website still mentioned the wine and cheese receptions and the time table for the LSL mentioned the early boarding for drinks and snacks (We all know its wine and cheese). This is just bad business practice. It was done in secret. There was no phone calls, emails, or letters saying "Sorry, the following amenities will be discontinued on the following dates". No, someone posted a confidential company notice here and now we are discussing it. "I get what I pay for"...well, sir, you might have, but I certainly did not!
Click to expand...

Apples and bananas could well have been requested in the commissary before the trip, not unusual at all, for smaller amounts. I used to always ask, "Do you have anything I can take for comp service today" It was a mish-mash, but it often increased tips, and produced smiles.


----------



## yarrow

nferr said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, and I mean this nicely, are you advocating that Amtrak "First Class" be equivalent to Motel 6?
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, Motel 6 offers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amenities Available at Every Motel 6 Location:
> 
> Kids Stay Free** *[Half price on Amtrak]*
> 
> Pets Welcome *[Not on Amtrak, though the occasional hamster is okay]*
> 
> Free Expanded Cable *[Not on Amtrak]*
> 
> Free Local Phone* *[Amtrak operates on a "bring your own phone" basis]*
> 
> Free Morning Coffee *[The one and only amenity that Motel 6 shares with LD trains  *]
> 
> Wi-Fi Internet Access*** *[Not on Amtrak LD trains, except spotty service on the PPC]*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've never seen a motel six that rolled cross country. Have you?
Click to expand...

your point is??????


----------



## Ryan

The candidates for Amtrak's picture of the week on Facebook:







I wasn't the first in the comments to call them out on them taking that amenity away.


----------



## afigg

On the comments about this decision being made in "secret" and confusion at the customer center, we need to remember this information came from an leak of a snapshot of an internal memo to the OBS. The memo to the customer center staff and what they are to do in response to complaints about X amenity being dropped is still probably being drafted.

While I think the decision to drop the Wine & Cheese tasting is primarily a political move, most of the others appear to be simply (minor) cost cutting. The complementary newspapers probably don't cost much to provide, but the reality may be that there are a large number of unread newspapers at the end of the trip that have to be recycled. I may be one of the last people on my block who still gets a daily printed newspaper delivery (Washington Post), so I still read newspapers. But I recognize that fewer and fewer people read printed newspapers, so complementary printed newspapers are going to fade away, sooner or later. On the other hand, if the issue is too many unread newspapers, perhaps the solution should be to cut way back on the the number of copies ordered and number of different newspapers, rather than eliminate the newspapers entirely.

Trains Magazine News Wire has a story today on the termination of the LD train amenities with statements on how the decision was reached and why. Now, some of it is probably spin, but they claim the decision was made by the LD route directors, not at HQ. The News Wire story is behind a paywall for subscribers, so I will limit this to a short excerpt for the key points:



> Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari tells Trains News Wire, however, that the decision to cut amenities came from the route directors in Chicago, not a corporate directive from Washington, though the company “has made promises to stakeholders that we would continue to reduce costs.”
> 
> He adds, “The route directors felt these changes would have a minimal impact on passenger revenue while reducing some confusion in passengers expectations between riding the Coast Starlight or Empire Builder and other long-distance service. Like a hotel, we would still provide travel kits to passengers that need them.”
> 
> ....
> 
> According to Magliari, there are no plans to stop running the Coast Starlight’s aging Pacific Parlour Cars, yet the wine tastings have clearly helped drive sleeping car occupancy and pricing for rooms that might otherwise be unoccupied on the all-day trip between Los Angeles and the San Francisco Bay Area.


----------



## Anderson

The issue with the "confusion" point is, of course, that _Amtrak explicitly markets the Builder and Starlight as premium trains_. There is _supposed_ to be a difference! Talk about weak spin...


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> On the comments about this decision being made in "secret" and confusion at the customer center, we need to remember this information came from an leak of a snapshot of an internal memo to the OBS. The memo to the customer center staff and what they are to do in response to complaints about X amenity being dropped is still probably being drafted.


This is a problem, because the cut dates start on February 15th. If you haven't got your act together for updating your advertising & marketing and changing the customer services notices, you shouldn't make the changes -- and one week is FAR too short notice for a marketing department. FAR too short.

I've recently dealt with another company which has serious problems in communications. It's a very bad thing, and it's a habit Amtrak should *not* acquire. Customers will tolerate a lot if they're notified well in advance and know what's going on. "Stealth" changes are consistently very unpopular.

Amtrak has been having other communications failures as well. Are the Empire Builders still being detoured westbound? Apparently this detour started PRIOR to the publication of the service alert, which is now gone. Frequently, long distance trains are having multi-day disruptions with no service alert. This happened during the ice storms, when service alerts were put out which clearly explained the changes to corridor service, but didn't even describe the effects on long-distance service.

This isn't appropriate, and I'm sure someone in Amtrak knows it isn't appropriate. But there's some sort of communications failure in the organization.


----------



## fairviewroad

D.P. Roberts said:


> It would be interesting to read those things in a newspaper, but unfortunately Amtrak provided USA Today,


Not in my experience. As others have pointed out, local papers are frequently provided. I'm no fan of USA Today (though it seems to be the paper of choice for most hotels) but as I said, I can't recall ever getting one on Amtrak. I'm not saying it's never happened since obviously you must have a reason for saying that's what Amtrak provides. It's just I've never seen it. But I haven't traveled on most of the eastern LD trains, so my experience is limited.



D.P. Roberts said:


> Then, think about the delivery. A driver has to go to your location to drop off those 5 papers. His company probably also makes a little more per paper, but even if he was collecting all the money from that delivery - say, a dollar per paper, for 3 papers - how worthwhile is it to make that delivery stop for only three bucks?


As a data point, my local newspaper seems to think it's economically worthwhile to send a driver to deliver a _single_ newspaper to my front door each morning. I realize that single paper represents a guaranteed sale, unlike the c-store papers. But that single paper represents less than one dollar in actual income, except on Sundays.

I don't disagree with your general point that the newspaper business is struggling. But that's a separate issue from whether it's a worthwhile amenity for Amtrak to provide to its first-class passengers. I know on the Cascades BC, the Seattle and Portland papers always seem to be read and passed around IME.


----------



## Ryan

Nathanael said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the comments about this decision being made in "secret" and confusion at the customer center, we need to remember this information came from an leak of a snapshot of an internal memo to the OBS. The memo to the customer center staff and what they are to do in response to complaints about X amenity being dropped is still probably being drafted.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a problem, because the cut dates start on February 15th. If you haven't got your act together for updating your advertising & marketing and changing the customer services notices, you shouldn't make the changes -- and one week is FAR too short notice for a marketing department. FAR too short.
Click to expand...

They actually start tomorrow, but the 8 February (Cranberry Juice) and 15 February (Flowers) changes aren't that big (and aren't "advertised features"). The big stuff doesn't come until the end of March, so there's still plenty of time to get people up to speed.



> *Employees:* All
> 
> *Food Service Car/Type:* Diner, Lounge, Cafè, Pacific Parlour Car, Diner Lite
> 
> *Region:* All
> 
> *Train Specific: All Long Distance trains except the Auto Train*
> 
> *Issue Date:* February 4, 2014
> 
> _(EDIT: I'm leaving off the contact information, it's too hard to read.)_
> 
> *Background:*
> 
> A number of amenity items are being eliminated and removed from long distance services.
> 
> *Advisory:*
> 
> The following amenity items are being eliminated and removed from long distance services. Effective dates are posted next to the items and the commissaries will stop boarding these items on these dates. Ending dates were set based on the calculated depletion of existing inventories.
> 
> 
> *Wine & Cheese Receptions - Effective March 31, 2014*Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> Lake Shore Ltd.
> 
> [*]*Complimentary 187ml Champagne & Non-Alcoholic Cider - Effective March 31, 2014*
> [*]*Aseptic Cranberry Juice will no longer be offered in the Sleeping Car - Effective February 8, 2014*
> Orange and Apple will continue to be offered
> Dining car will continue to offer Cranberry Juice
> 
> [*]*Complimentary Newspapers - Effective Date TBA. *Research is underway regarding existing contracts in place with current vendors
> [*]*Amenity Kits - Effective May 31, 2014*
> Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> 
> [*]*Flowers and Vases on Dining Car Tables - Effective February 15, 2014*
> [*]*Astor Chocolate Squares - Effective March 31, 2014*
> Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation.​*This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*​


----------



## yarrow

RyanS said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the comments about this decision being made in "secret" and confusion at the customer center, we need to remember this information came from an leak of a snapshot of an internal memo to the OBS. The memo to the customer center staff and what they are to do in response to complaints about X amenity being dropped is still probably being drafted.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a problem, because the cut dates start on February 15th. If you haven't got your act together for updating your advertising & marketing and changing the customer services notices, you shouldn't make the changes -- and one week is FAR too short notice for a marketing department. FAR too short.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They actually start tomorrow, but the 8 February (Cranberry Juice) and 15 February (Flowers) changes aren't that big (and aren't "advertised features"). The big stuff doesn't come until the end of March, so there's still plenty of time to get people up to speed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Employees:* All
> 
> *Food Service Car/Type:* Diner, Lounge, Cafè, Pacific Parlour Car, Diner Lite
> 
> *Region:* All
> 
> *Train Specific: All Long Distance trains except the Auto Train*
> 
> *Issue Date:* February 4, 2014
> 
> _(EDIT: I'm leaving off the contact information, it's too hard to read.)_
> 
> *Background:*
> 
> A number of amenity items are being eliminated and removed from long distance services.
> 
> *Advisory:*
> 
> The following amenity items are being eliminated and removed from long distance services. Effective dates are posted next to the items and the commissaries will stop boarding these items on these dates. Ending dates were set based on the calculated depletion of existing inventories.
> 
> 
> *Wine & Cheese Receptions - Effective March 31, 2014*Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> Lake Shore Ltd.
> 
> [*]*Complimentary 187ml Champagne & Non-Alcoholic Cider - Effective March 31, 2014*
> [*]*Aseptic Cranberry Juice will no longer be offered in the Sleeping Car - Effective February 8, 2014*
> Orange and Apple will continue to be offered
> Dining car will continue to offer Cranberry Juice
> 
> [*]*Complimentary Newspapers - Effective Date TBA. *Research is underway regarding existing contracts in place with current vendors
> [*]*Amenity Kits - Effective May 31, 2014*
> Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> 
> [*]*Flowers and Vases on Dining Car Tables - Effective February 15, 2014*
> [*]*Astor Chocolate Squares - Effective March 31, 2014*
> Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation.​*This Food Service Notice is fulfilled on April 1, 2014.*​
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

my understanding is that the amenities will disappear as existing supplies run out up to the effective date. thus i have read flowers are already gone on some trains as, i suppose, at the end of a run the existing supply has run out.


----------



## Ryan

That understanding doesn't square with the document you quoted.

Given that the amenities aren't offered 100% of the time, it's unsurprising that some trains don't have flowers.


----------



## yarrow

RyanS said:


> That understanding doesn't square with the document you quoted.
> 
> Given that the amenities aren't offered 100% of the time, it's unsurprising that some trains don't have flowers.


correct. it isn't mentioned in that document. my info is from a thread on TO and an amtrak obs. we shall see


----------



## Bob Dylan

Of course this Rushed, Secret , Lame Decision Is being made for Political Reasons, (whats next, No Hot Food in the Diners?) The Weak Spin that Blames this Decision on Route Managers in Chicago is just that, Weak BS!

Joe Boardman Promised that Budget Hawk John Mica in Hearings that the Loses on Food and Beverage Services would be Reduced on the LD Trains due to the "Gourmet Nature" of these Services! Sounds like a 60 Mass Decision to me, not the Suits in Chicago!

And since the CranberryJuice,Newspapers,Flowers,Chocolate, Amenity Bags and Wine and Cheese are what is causing Amtrak to Lose So Much Money on LD Trains, I'm Glad they are being Eliminated, I'm Sure the Savings will be Passed On to Us in the Form of Lower Sleeping Car Charges!! <_<

And I have a Bridge to Sell you in New York!


----------



## D.P. Roberts

yarrow said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> That understanding doesn't square with the document you quoted.
> 
> Given that the amenities aren't offered 100% of the time, it's unsurprising that some trains don't have flowers.
> 
> 
> 
> correct. it isn't mentioned in that document. my info is from a thread on TO and an amtrak obs. we shall see
Click to expand...

I think you were correct the first time. The document quoted above says that the effective date is when the commisary will stop stocking the items, but the actual end date depends on when the supplies run out. It may take months to run out of these items, depending on commisary stocking levels.


----------



## rrdude

I've looked online, and can't find the exact stainless bud vase that Amtrak uses (used) now for flowers. Anyone have one? I'll buy it. (I have the old blue china ones, but those won't travel well)

Thanks. (I'm gonna have fun with this!)


----------



## railiner

Just noticed that the document in discussion "is fulfilled on April 1, 2014"........hmmmmmmmmm......... :giggle:


----------



## rrdude

railiner said:


> Just noticed that the document in discussion "is fulfilled on April 1, 2014"........hmmmmmmmmm......... :giggle:


Nope, it's real. If it was a prank, then they got EVERYbody, including their own FB page, Trains Newswire, etc., etc.

Money says it's 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% true. (one can hope...........not)


----------



## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> Just noticed that the document in discussion "is fulfilled on April 1, 2014"........hmmmmmmmmm......... :giggle:


The AGR points increase was also on April 1st and that was no joke.


----------



## TVRM610

VentureForth said:


> roomette said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of amenities....not having travelled in a sleeper for quite a while, I was wondering if they still provided a "bedtime sweet"? In the past, a couple of chocolate mints.
> 
> If they have eliminated them, I wonder if Corporate would frown if an enterprising sleeper attendant would purchase and distribute them at his or her own expense?
> 
> A cheap investment that could pay nice dividends in tips at the end of the run for that attendant. I could see them against it for possible product liability issues, or passenger's receiving them expecting them all the time, and then complaining if not getting them.......
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they would frown upon that just as they prohibit chefs from adding self-purchased spices and other items to the standard recipes. The issue is food safety and liability. Amtrak is responsible for the safety of all food served by Amtrak staff. Accordingly, Amtrak only allows food items that it approves and purchases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have had more than one SCA provide apples and bananas near the coffee.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And this is done at risk. Imagine a person getting sick. They call Amtrak. "Hey! Those bananas you have me in my sleeper car made me sick!" "We don't provide bananas." "Yes you do. I ate one, and I'm sick now." "Alrighty, what's train number and the name of your attendant?"
> ...
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using the Android Amtrak Forums mobile app
Click to expand...

Can anyone confirm its against policy to provide prepackaged snacks? I've seen many attendants put out candy, mints, etc. out by the coffee and juice area. And leaving a candy on the pillow is always a nice touch.


----------



## yarrow

rrdude said:


> I've looked online, and can't find the exact stainless bud vase that Amtrak uses (used) now for flowers. Anyone have one? I'll buy it. (I have the old blue china ones, but those won't travel well)
> 
> Thanks. (I'm gonna have fun with this!)


good idea. maybe you can get one from amtrak before they melt them down to make into executive washroom fixtures


----------



## MiRider

jimhudson said:


> Of course this Rushed, Secret , Lame Decision Is being made for Political Reasons, (whats next, No Hot Food in the Diners?) The Weak Spin that Blames this Decision on Route Managers in Chicago is just that, Weak BS!
> 
> Joe Boardman Promised that Budget Hawk John Mica in Hearings that the Loses on Food and Beverage Services *would be Reduced on the LD Trains due to the "Gourmet Nature" of these Services! *Sounds like a 60 Mass Decision to me, not the Suits in Chicago!
> 
> And since the CranberryJuice,Newspapers,Flowers,Chocolate, Amenity Bags and Wine and Cheese are what is causing Amtrak to Lose So Much Money on LD Trains, I'm Glad they are being Eliminated, I'm Sure the Savings will be Passed On to Us in the Form of Lower Sleeping Car Charges!! <_<
> 
> And I have a Bridge to Sell you in New York!


Gourmet Nature?!?!?!? You have to be kidding me.

Is that really what 2 percenters like Boardman and Mica think the crap on Amtrak is? Really?

Or are they of the ilk that think that anyone who uses public transportation of any kind is poor, beneath them, uneducated, culturally illiterate, a straphanger?

In that context *Gourmet Nature* makes sense but not much at that. Crap is crap.

There is nothing about the Amtrak experience, *first class* aka overpriced sleeper, that is remotely Gourmet in Nature or, for that matter, first class.

The food is passable and that is it, imo.

Would I knowingly and willingly pay for it in a restaurant? NO.

Would I pay anywhere near what a sleeper costs for a cell in a Motel 6, which is what I consider equal to Amtrak sleeping accommodations? NO.

You can argue all you want about it but the sleeper accommodations are nothing more than a flat surface to sleep on, an uncomfortable seat to look out a window from, and mediocre food with equally mediocre service across the board.

When you're the only game in town, people have to play by your rules.

I love taking the train so I'll continue to do so but Amtrak is not going to increase LD ridership by depending on train fans who do nothing but make excuses for poor service.


----------



## Not_So_Auto_Mat

TVRM610 said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> roomette said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of amenities....not having travelled in a sleeper for quite a while, I was wondering if they still provided a "bedtime sweet"? In the past, a couple of chocolate mints.
> 
> If they have eliminated them, I wonder if Corporate would frown if an enterprising sleeper attendant would purchase and distribute them at his or her own expense?
> 
> A cheap investment that could pay nice dividends in tips at the end of the run for that attendant. I could see them against it for possible product liability issues, or passenger's receiving them expecting them all the time, and then complaining if not getting them.......
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they would frown upon that just as they prohibit chefs from adding self-purchased spices and other items to the standard recipes. The issue is food safety and liability. Amtrak is responsible for the safety of all food served by Amtrak staff. Accordingly, Amtrak only allows food items that it approves and purchases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have had more than one SCA provide apples and bananas near the coffee.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And this is done at risk. Imagine a person getting sick. They call Amtrak. "Hey! Those bananas you have me in my sleeper car made me sick!" "We don't provide bananas." "Yes you do. I ate one, and I'm sick now." "Alrighty, what's train number and the name of your attendant?"
> ...
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using the Android Amtrak Forums mobile app
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can anyone confirm its against policy to provide prepackaged snacks? I've seen many attendants put out candy, mints, etc. out by the coffee and juice area. And leaving a candy on the pillow is always a nice touch.
Click to expand...

I'm taking a large amount of packaged snacks on my next trip and intend to sell them to other passengers from my roomette. Put a little menu and price poster on my door. Might as well make some money during the ride!


----------



## sunchaser

*I just looked on amtrak.com, under sleeper amenties and it still lists tolietries, newspaper, etc. The newest Coast Starlight Route Guide still lists the wine tasting, but not on the Empire Builder Guide. It's really too bad they are removing these 'extras', because we did enjoy the 'cheap champagne splits'. Most of the time did not see the newspapers, liked having the cranberry juice though. I really can't imagine these little extras that help define first class cost that much. hopefully they will change it back soon.*


----------



## MiRider

sunchaser said:


> *I just looked on amtrak.com, under sleeper amenties and it still lists tolietries, newspaper, etc. The newest Coast Starlight Route Guide still lists the wine tasting, but not on the Empire Builder Guide. It's really too bad they are removing these 'extras', because we did enjoy the 'cheap champagne splits'. Most of the time did not see the newspapers, liked having the cranberry juice though. I really can't imagine these little extras that help define first class cost that much. hopefully they will change it back soon.*


As of this post, it's still there on the Empire Builder Route - under menus - http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/44/589/EmpireBuilder_WineCheese_201103.pdf


----------



## jis

Quick! Complain to Amtrak so that they can proactively remove them in a timely manner.


----------



## dlagrua

Amenities will continue to be cut until Joe Boardman stands up and tells congress exactly what the sleeper passenger pays for a trip in comparison to air fare. That fare from NYC to CHI can be typically $800 one way and from CHI to SEA about $1400 one way. The argument is that those prices are expensive and I maintain that the taxpayer is not picking up the bill for the food that we eat. A subsidy is given but it also needs to be pointed out how much of an airline ticket is subsidized and how much you highway trip is too. That's why Amtrak is always on the short end of the stick. While he's at it why doesn't Boardman tell Mica that tax dollars pay his entire salary, expenses and lavish amenities. Boardman just has no guts to tell it like it is.


----------



## opuscat

I have ridden Amtrak cross country many times and will miss the amenities. This is not the first cutback, remember the linen table cloths and real silvefware? It seems to me the answer is very simple. Charge two prices for sleepers. One that is just for the sleeper and one that includes the amenities: free meals, newspaper, bottle of champagne, wine and cheese, etc.


----------



## Trains in Spain

All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone. Really?

Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.


----------



## Trogdor

dlagrua said:


> Amenities will continue to be cut until Joe Boardman stands up and tells congress exactly what the sleeper passenger pays for a trip in comparison to air fare. That fare from NYC to CHI can be typically $800 one way and from CHI to SEA about $1400 one way. The argument is that those prices are expensive and I maintain that the taxpayer is not picking up the bill for the food that we eat. A subsidy is given but it also needs to be pointed out how much of an airline ticket is subsidized and how much you highway trip is too. That's why Amtrak is always on the short end of the stick. While he's at it why doesn't Boardman tell Mica that tax dollars pay his entire salary, expenses and lavish amenities. Boardman just has no guts to tell it like it is.


You're simply naive if you think that 1) anyone in congress cares about what the fare is on a long-distance train, or that 2) criticizing a congressman directly in a congressional hearing will accomplish anything other than ending Boardman's career before he could even walk back to Union Station from the Capitol.

Further, the logic you present wouldn't do anything to convince someone who is anti-Amtrak to change their views. The easiest response to anything you said is "so what?" For that matter, since you seem so certain, I'd like you to say how much an airline ticket is subsidized (and the honest answer is, outside of the EAS program, not very much). All you've done is reinforce the belief that sleepers are just subsidized cruises for the well off, by pointing out in the same paragraph that the tickets are both expensive and subsidized.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Trains in Spain said:


> All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone. Really?
> 
> Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.


Hopefully you're talking about the Suits that Ride Desks and not the Railroaders that actually Do the Work!

(Bashing Workers is an Old Political Trick that the Greedy Rich have used Forever! 90K isn't Rich, its a Nice, Liveable Wage but it's Earned, not Welfare!) 

Disclaimer: As a Retired Government Employee I resemble that Poor Pensioner!


----------



## SarahZ

Trains in Spain said:


> All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a* SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone**. Really?
> 
> Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.


*citation needed

Last I checked, I'm paid about the same amount as sleeper car attendants, and I make nowhere near $90,000/year, not even half that. Unlike them, I get to go home after eight hours, and I get to sleep in my own bed every night. I also get to see my boyfriend, friends, and pets.

I think they are paid quite fairly for the job they do, considering the time away from home, and I'm happy to tip them if they provide exceptional service (especially considering they may have only had a few hours of sleep on a roomette mattress).

Furthermore, if someone wants to tip someone, that's their business. If you don't want to tip, fine. You don't have to. It's not like the people giving tips are taking the money out of your pocket, so why do you care?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Trogdor said:


> I'd like you to say how much an airline ticket is subsidized (and the honest answer is, outside of the EAS program, not very much.


So the FAA, ATC, TSA, CBP, along with hundreds of commercial airports and literally thousands of public airports receive no tax dollars beyond today's miniscule EAS? I think you're intentionally missing the bigger picture here. Air travel has the advantage of full coverage and high volume compared to Amtrak's low volume skeletal network, so in that sense its a more efficient use of tax dollars on a per traveler basis, but it's certainly not free and it goes far beyond EAS. Here in 2014 it's easy to forget that much of the infrastructure for the commercial airline industry came from tax expenditures (and tax breaks) and is still being supported by tax dollars to this very day.


----------



## rrdude

Trogdor said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amenities will continue to be cut until Joe Boardman stands up and tells congress exactly what the sleeper passenger pays for a trip in comparison to air fare. That fare from NYC to CHI can be typically $800 one way and from CHI to SEA about $1400 one way. The argument is that those prices are expensive and I maintain that the taxpayer is not picking up the bill for the food that we eat. A subsidy is given but it also needs to be pointed out how much of an airline ticket is subsidized and how much you highway trip is too. That's why Amtrak is always on the short end of the stick. While he's at it why doesn't Boardman tell Mica that tax dollars pay his entire salary, expenses and lavish amenities. Boardman just has no guts to tell it like it is.
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply naive if you think that 1) anyone in congress cares about what the fare is on a long-distance train, or that 2) criticizing a congressman directly in a congressional hearing will accomplish anything other than ending Boardman's career before he could even walk back to Union Station from the Capitol.
> 
> Further, the logic you present wouldn't do anything to convince someone who is anti-Amtrak to change their views. The easiest response to anything you said is "so what?" For that matter, since you seem so certain, I'd like you to say how much an airline ticket is subsidized (and the honest answer is, outside of the EAS program, not very much). All you've done is reinforce the belief that sleepers are just subsidized cruises for the well off, by pointing out in the same paragraph that the tickets are both expensive and subsidized.
Click to expand...

Robert, your points are right on, but I think an argument CAN be made for airfare subsidy, not talking Essential Air Service, but the non-direct cost such as FAA controllers, airports and maint, TSA, etc., etc. that airlines don't directly pay. Sure, they pay fees and gate fees, etc., but everything I've ever seen indicate that they only pay a small portion of those actual-true cost.

I could be wrong, or outdated but the "Have you ever seen a Greyhound Snow Plow going down the Interstate" still holds up, I think......


----------



## jis

A lot of those are covered by dedicated fees collected with the ticket or by other means. There is still some amount that is contributed from general funds. But my impression, which could be wrong, is that as a proportion of each ticket price it works out to be relatively small, though in absolute amounts it is possibly significant.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Devil's Advocate said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like you to say how much an airline ticket is subsidized (and the honest answer is, outside of the EAS program, not very much.
> 
> 
> 
> So the FAA, ATC, TSA, CBP, along with hundreds of commercial airports and literally thousands of public airports receive no tax dollars beyond today's miniscule EAS?
Click to expand...

Based on some quick research, highway construction spending in the US is about $75 billion per year, all of which comes from taxes.

An interchange near be will be redone over the next year or so (I-270 & route 33 in Dublin, Ohio). Just one interchange in a midwestern town in an average state, and the work is estimated to cost almost $100 million dollars. No one is protesting, no one is complaining. No one would ever think that Congress should get involved.

And yet the budget for this one-year road project is almost 10% of what Amtrak gets. In terms of overall federal spending, Amtrak is chump change: $1.4 billion out of a $3.5 TRILLION federal budget? If I did the math right, that's 0.4% of the federal budget.

Looked at another way, let's assume that the average congressperson works 40 hours a week spending federal money (they surely "work" longer hours than that, but most of that time is spent getting themselves reelected). Let's give them two weeks of actual vacation (they take more). So, that's 2000 hours a year pondering what to do with our tax dollars, writing new bills and voting on them, sitting in endless committees, etc. If they allocated their hours based on the dollars they're spending, Amtrak should get about 48 minutes a year.

That's it: 48 minutes per congressperson. Anyone who spends more than 48 minutes a year haranguing about Amtrak (Mica, etc.) clearly has an axe to grind, and is doing so for political reasons rather than an actual concern about money being spent.

So how much does Amtrak lose in dining - about $70 million per year? That's worth about two and a half minutes. To even think about spending at this level is to micromanage at the smallest level.


----------



## Anderson

rrdude said:


> rrdude, on 08 Feb 2014 - 1:15 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trogdor, on 08 Feb 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua, on 08 Feb 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:Amenities will continue to be cut until Joe Boardman stands up and tells congress exactly what the sleeper passenger pays for a trip in comparison to air fare. That fare from NYC to CHI can be typically $800 one way and from CHI to SEA about $1400 one way. The argument is that those prices are expensive and I maintain that the taxpayer is not picking up the bill for the food that we eat. A subsidy is given but it also needs to be pointed out how much of an airline ticket is subsidized and how much you highway trip is too. That's why Amtrak is always on the short end of the stick. While he's at it why doesn't Boardman tell Mica that tax dollars pay his entire salary, expenses and lavish amenities. Boardman just has no guts to tell it like it is.
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply naive if you think that 1) anyone in congress cares about what the fare is on a long-distance train, or that 2) criticizing a congressman directly in a congressional hearing will accomplish anything other than ending Boardman's career before he could even walk back to Union Station from the Capitol.
> 
> Further, the logic you present wouldn't do anything to convince someone who is anti-Amtrak to change their views. The easiest response to anything you said is "so what?" For that matter, since you seem so certain, I'd like you to say how much an airline ticket is subsidized (and the honest answer is, outside of the EAS program, not very much). All you've done is reinforce the belief that sleepers are just subsidized cruises for the well off, by pointing out in the same paragraph that the tickets are both expensive and subsidized.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Robert, your points are right on, but I think an argument CAN be made for airfare subsidy, not talking Essential Air Service, but the non-direct cost such as FAA controllers, airports and maint, TSA, etc., etc. that airlines don't directly pay. Sure, they pay fees and gate fees, etc., but everything I've ever seen indicate that they only pay a small portion of those actual-true cost.
> 
> I could be wrong, or outdated but the "Have you ever seen a Greyhound Snow Plow going down the Interstate" still holds up, I think......
Click to expand...

There's also the massive indirect subsidy that a lot of airports have received through local support for construction, etc. There's a reason you almost _never_ hear of a decent-sized commercial airport getting shut down.


----------



## roomette

SarahZ said:


> Trains in Spain said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a* SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone**. Really?
> 
> Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.
> 
> 
> 
> *citation needed
Click to expand...

Fancy! ^

Good thing this isn't a tipping thread.

Also, I think Marines make less than that and they sometimes don't see their boyfriends and pets for YEARS!


----------



## rrdude

Trains in Spain said:


> All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone. Really?
> 
> Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.


$90K in salary alone? What are you smoking dude? This is from a new job posting this week, granted, LSA's make more that TAS and TAC's but not by the order of magnitude you are talking about. There may be a small fraction of LSA's, and I say "may" who thru seniority (20-30 yrs on the job) approach that, but I highly doubt it's a big number.

Job Posting Title
01/13/2014
Effective Date
EA-90128710
Reference Code
$60.00 per day during training. *$17.91 Per Hour After Training*
Additional Information
OBS Trainee - SA/TA (10)
Job Title
Amtrak
Company

Transportation
Department
SUMMARY OF DUTIES:
The OBS Trainee - Service Attendant/Train Attendant is responsible for ensuring a safe, comfortable, and
pleasant journey to our coach and sleeping car passengers. The Train Attendant can work either coach or
sleeping cars. Coach Attendants will be required to keep assigned coaches clean for the duration of the trip, ............................


----------



## VentureForth

More than salaries, it's the pensions that are really costing the most to Amtrak right now. If all the retirees were on their own 401(k) plan (which is what most corporations have gone to), Amtrak wouldn't have to be so concerned over paying people who aren't working.

The whole pension plan is a Ponzi scheme. You're relying on growth of business and revenue to pay back those who've stopped working years ago. And every year, you're adding to the pay of those who aren't working. And when, like Amtrak, you're not growing at the rate you are increasing your human resources expences at, it's gonna kill your bottom line.

It's the pensions that contributed to the bankruptcy of Detroit. With all the people leaving the city, they still had to pay not only their current employees, but their retired employees. Then, when bankruptcy hits, the pensioners lose just about first.

RRDude - I don't think that your quoting a job posting is helping much (and I respect you immensely). When minimum wage is around $5-9 depending on where you live, a STARTING wage that is nearly double to triple that is pretty darn good. And I'm not sure what the escalation is, but I imagine that those *beginning* wages grow faster than the rate of inflation to quite a working wage very quickly.


----------



## Woody

rrdude said:


> Trains in Spain said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of this back and forth over a few dollars worth of food and beverages misses the larger issue for Amtrak and its operating costs. They employ a lot of highly paid people along with high overhead for pensions and perqs. I see comments here from retirees, probably on a $1200/mo Social Security stipend, wondering how much to tip a SCA who probably earns $90K a year in salary alone. Really?
> 
> Until Amtrak addresses its bloated payroll they can cut all the pillow mints they want from the LD lines, it won't make a damn bit of difference.
> 
> 
> 
> $90K in salary alone? What are you smoking dude? This is from a new job posting this week, granted, LSA's make more that TAS and TAC's but not by the order of magnitude you are talking about. There may be a small fraction of LSA's, and I say "may" who thru seniority (20-30 yrs on the job) approach that, but I highly doubt it's a big number.
> 
> Job Posting Title
> 01/13/2014
> Effective Date
> EA-90128710
> Reference Code
> $60.00 per day during training. *$17.91 Per Hour After Training*
> Additional Information
> OBS Trainee - SA/TA (10)
> Job Title
> Amtrak
> Company
> 
> Transportation
> Department
> SUMMARY OF DUTIES:
> The OBS Trainee - Service Attendant/Train Attendant is responsible for ensuring a safe, comfortable, and
> pleasant journey to our coach and sleeping car passengers. The Train Attendant can work either coach or
> sleeping cars. Coach Attendants will be required to keep assigned coaches clean for the duration of the trip, ............................
Click to expand...

We'd better do the math for him. I have a notion

that he's not very good with numbers.

Hourly pay of $17.91. (_Beats the heck out of _

_the minimum wage, I'll give you that._)

Then 40 hours a week gives you $716.40 per.

With 52 weeks in a year, your hard-working

The OBS Service Attendant/Train Attendant

could haul home *$37,252.80 *in the first year

after being promoted from Trainee. BFD,

_Makes me feel better about the starting pay for teachers_

_in my small town hometown in Texas. Not much better,_

_but better._


----------



## tonys96

VentureForth said:


> More than salaries, it's the pensions that are really costing the most to Amtrak right now. If all the retirees were on their own 401(k) plan (which is what most corporations have gone to), Amtrak wouldn't have to be so concerned over paying people who aren't working.
> 
> The whole pension plan is a Ponzi scheme. You're relying on growth of business and revenue to pay back those who've stopped working years ago. And every year, you're adding to the pay of those who aren't working. And when, like Amtrak, you're not growing at the rate you are increasing your human resources expences at, it's gonna kill your bottom line.
> 
> It's the pensions that contributed to the bankruptcy of Detroit. With all the people leaving the city, they still had to pay not only their current employees, but their retired employees. Then, when bankruptcy hits, the pensioners lose just about first.
> 
> RRDude - I don't think that your quoting a job posting is helping much (and I respect you immensely). When minimum wage is around $5-9 depending on where you live, a STARTING wage that is nearly double to triple that is pretty darn good. And I'm not sure what the escalation is, but I imagine that those *beginning* wages grow faster than the rate of inflation to quite a working wage very quickly.


While, I agree completely about pensions being a current drag, they are promises made at an earlier date that were accepted as a condition of the prior employment agreement. I have no problem with Amtrak, or anyone stopping pensions going forward, but refusing to follow up on a prior promise is dishonest.

Does anyone have *verifiable* data on the min and max wage for pay classes on Amtrak? I sure do not.


----------



## VentureForth

tonys96 said:


> While, I agree completely about pensions being a current drag, they are promises made at an earlier date that were accepted as a condition of the prior employment agreement. I have no problem with Amtrak, or anyone stopping pensions going forward, but refusing to follow up on a prior promise is dishonest.


I totally agree. Bankruptcy, by definition, is a legal tactic by which you get out of financially burdening promises (ie: contracts). Even existing corporations that are going 401(k) have to honor their pension agreements - and they are, unless that famous chapter 11 from the book of bankruptcy is oracled. But I don't think Amtrak (or any other government entity) is even looking that way.


----------



## Trogdor

A better way to restate the point I was trying to make is, simply saying "x gets subsidies, therefore, so should y," is one of the weakest arguments one could possibly make in favor of something. Hence my point about the easiest response to the whole thing being "so what?"

You need a better argument in favor of something than pointing out the shortcomings of something else.


----------



## AlanB

VentureForth said:


> More than salaries, it's the pensions that are really costing the most to Amtrak right now. If all the retirees were on their own 401(k) plan (which is what most corporations have gone to), Amtrak wouldn't have to be so concerned over paying people who aren't working.


Amtrak workers don't get a pension in the traditional sense. They collect from the RR Retirement Fund, similar in nature to Social Security. And they pay more into that fund than you & I pay into Social Security. Yes, Amtrak still has to contribute money to the fund; but it is not 100% funded by Amtrak.

And all RR workers, freight & passenger, pay into the fund and collect from the fund. This also means that the freight RR's have to contribute money into the fund also. It's not just Amtrak, and if Amtrak were to go away, workers would still get their retirement money.


----------



## Nathanael

jis said:


> Quick! Complain to Amtrak so that they can proactively remove them in a timely manner.


Actually, that's probably a good idea. Communications matters.


----------



## Nathanael

Regarding the pension issue.

The Railroad Retirement Fund has been accused of overcharging Amtrak and undercharging the freight railroads due to transitional provisions from the formation of Amtrak; I have no idea regarding the validity of this claim, and it may be nonsense.

The biggest problem in terms of RR Retirement Fund expenses seems, from what I can tell, to be similar to the "Baby Boomer" issue in Social Security. There were really enormous numbers of railroad employees until the 1970s, and there have been a lot less since then (the number dropped over the 70s & 80s mostly).

(Cite http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v68n2/v68n2p41.html -- 640,000 employees in 1970, 236,000 in 2007).

Anyway, the masses of retirees in the 1970s and 1980s are, frankly, dying off now (40 years later), so the "bubble" in Railroad Retirement is ending and in a decade or so the retirees will be supported by a roughly comparable number of workers. At which point it becomes not so much of a problem.


----------



## Michigan Mom

Pension plans are protected by ERISA, which of course started the process by which companies sought to rid themselves of that obligation... otherwise called the rise of the 401(k).

What I'm really wondering, though, is.... do SCAs and other onboard crew really make 90k? Cause if they do, I am just flat out stupid to tip them. 90k? I wouldn't even know what to do with that much money.


----------



## SarahZ

Michigan Mom said:


> What I'm really wondering, though, is.... do SCAs and other onboard crew really make 90k? Cause if they do, I am just flat out stupid to tip them. 90k? I wouldn't even know what to do with that much money.


No, they do not. Not even close. See the discussion on page 14.


----------



## amamba

Michigan Mom said:


> 90k? I wouldn't even know what to do with that much money.


Ride more trains?


----------



## Michigan Mom

Definitely ride more trains, for sure but yeah, as noted above, wouldn't think they earned anywhere close to that even with OT.


----------



## SarahZ

Michigan Mom said:


> Definitely ride more trains, for sure but yeah, as noted above, wouldn't think they earned anywhere close to that even with OT.


They don't. See the discussion on page 14.


----------



## buddy559

I would rather see the vases and newspapers stay and those tablecloths go. They just seemed to be so big, and being disposable, that has to be a bit of a cost. I just didn't find them functional. The creases were so stiff, the salad plates, and others are so light that they won't lay even on the table. There was a lot of overhang that just seemed to be in the way.


----------



## I wish!

SarahZ said:


> Michigan Mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely ride more trains, for sure but yeah, as noted above, wouldn't think they earned anywhere close to that even with OT.
> 
> 
> 
> They don't. See the discussion on page 14.
Click to expand...

It's like there's an echo in here or something.
Maybe this will help:

*SLEEPING CAR ATTENDANTS DON'T MAKE 90K IN A YEAR*


----------



## GOOG is your friend

Old data (some four years old), seems to indicate the average annual pay for Amtrak employees is $61K:

http://www.careerbliss.com/amtrak/salaries/

It appears the "grunts", service attendants riding the trains are paid a wage far above what similar workers in the hospitality industry typically earn.


----------



## Ryan

Define "similar workers".

Edit: scrolling down a little bit, the average LSA salary seems to be $35k


----------



## Anderson

You know, this site might not be the best source of data:
(1) At the very least, the "job mix" seems to skew high.

(2) If you look closely, there are two "Senior Project Manager" positions in *New Brunswick, *the chefs are located in *Nova Scotia*...


----------



## SarahZ

GOOG is your friend said:


> Old data (some four years old), seems to indicate the *average* annual pay for Amtrak employees is $61K:
> 
> http://www.careerbliss.com/amtrak/salaries/
> 
> It appears the "grunts", service attendants riding the trains are paid a wage far above what similar workers in the hospitality industry typically earn.


That's an average. That includes top brass. You really can't use that to extrapolate how much an attendant makes.

As has been discussed, ad nauseam, sleeper car attendants make approximately $38,000 per year.

This $90,000 b.s. is how rumors get started. People need to do research before believing some random, anonymous guest (not you, the original Chicken Little who posted that nonsense about $90,000/year). That's why my original post on the subject said "citation needed".


----------



## Trogdor

RyanS said:


> Define "similar workers".


You know, other people who spend six days at a time away from home, with two days straight basically trapped at your workplace with no ability at all to wander around, while working 6 am to 11 pm with a couple of hour-long breaks in between. Those "similar workers."


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Hi, I'm back to... kill the idiocy of pension discussions right here in the bud. Employees with pensions are absolutely the death of America, aren't they? Um, no, no they aren't. Management of pension plans by company management is the problem, not the pension themselves.

It is my duty, as a lifetime employer, to provide my employee with enough money to live in a manner according to his station in life, and to provide that he can retire from my employee when he is no longer able to work for me, and as a reward and compensation for all those years duly serving me, can retire and live in the manner that he has become accustomed. If you can't afford to operate on employing somebody at that level, you can't afford the employee, stupid.

Actuarial tables show how long the average person is supposed to live, a number that has been going up at a fairly consistent overall rate for years and years and years. When you decide to offer your employees a pension plan- something I've been contemplating doing as of late, by the by- you have to work out how much it costs you. You have a typical old fashioned worker. He starts working for you at 20 or so, retires around 65, works for you for forty-five years. Right? Right.

Ok, so in todays dollars, Mr. Worker Dude works for me at, say, 30,000 a year. Lets assume no inflation, and no resulting raises, and an interest rate ahead of inflation at 3%, for simplicity of math. Actuarial tables suggest Mr. Worker Dude is going to live until he is approximately 90 years old (again, this is 40 years in the future, most people don't live to 90, but I should account for the fact that the average lifespan keeps going up). Ok. Fine. All well and good.

The pension plan keeps Mr. Worker Dude on at 2/3rds his working wage, social security and the fact that he should no longer have a home mortgage making his pensioned income match his working income. Ok. Time for the math all the other corporations should have been doing.

He does not make 30,000 working for me- thats his take home pay. Common trick stating the full amount, so that people can compare it with their take-home pay. No, employment costs way more than take home pay. Providing for the employees break area, workers compensation, etc. etc. makes it much higher, and the pension is part of the payment. Period. Its not just part of the payment- it is part of what the employee earns.

Anyway, employee will make 30,000 a year in salary, plus 10,000 a year in basic benefits (health insurance, workers comp, provided protection equipment, paid vacation and sick leave, etc) for 45 years, or $1.8 million. For a $20,000 a year pension, it will cost me $25k a year including the continued lifetime benefits, so if he lives until he is 90 I need to support him for 25 years at $25k, or $625,000.

Using a retirement calculator, we find that we need to prepare, under the parameters I laid out, to lay aside $6800 per additional employee per year. So the cost of that typical employee working those parameters with take home pay of $30,000 is $46800 a year. That $6800 per employee should be considered a separate account at the company. It should be untouchable, designed to fund each employees retirement. If there are less employees now, well thats irrelevant, because by the time Mr. Dude is retired, the amount I have contributed into the fund on his behalf should have provided the $625,000 I need to pay off his pension.

The bull-**** of Ponzi schemes, funnels, bubbles, and so on is just a company's way of trying to blame the fact that they mismanaged their business and possibly their retirement funds on the employees. That money should be set aside and separate from day to day management and operations of the business. They can, I suppose, use it to invest in their own business, paying the returns on it back to the fund with interest. Its as valid a place as any to try to generate that 3% return betting on your own competence. But the fact that you can't fund the company because you made that bet and lost is NOT the fault of retirement benefit drains. Its the fault of you screwing up your management of your business.

I'm not saying I am a perfect businessman, or that I haven't bet funds I perhaps shouldn't have been playing with on my belief that my next project was going to yield huge returns. I do that. But when I bet my money and lose it, its my fault. When I bet my employees pension benefits, and lose it, it is also my fault. When I promise to offer benefits, it is my job to recognize that providing that costs me $6800 extra a year for Mr. Dude, and consider that part of his compensation. Period.

He isn't draining me. He is working for me. If a satisfied worker, secure in his knowledge that his retirement and future are secure so long as he does good solid work for me, he is probably working hard for my benefit. It is my DUTY to guide my firm in a way that provides security for my workers livelihood (I build my empire with their hands, man), as well as make a decent living for myself (and I don't blast large salaries to competent management, either), and provide a fair return for my shareholders/investors.

So please, drop the retirement funds killing companies argument. Its a load of poppycock. People will blame anyone for doing something wrong, regardless of who the fault lays with.


----------



## jis

Hey GML! Good to see you back! Welcome back!


----------



## Ryan

Agreed, hope all is well with you. Solid post!


----------



## Blackwolf

Very. SOLID. Post. Thank you very much, Sir!


----------



## Meat Puppet

I could be wrong but I thought the wine and cheese are on trade accounts. Free/heavily discounted wine and cheese in return Amtrak puts the brand names in the route guides online and in print.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Too bad you dont run one of the Giant Corporations that are Obscenly Profiting on the backs of their Workers Lion!  Wonder what all these Over Compensated CEOs would do if they Were suddenly Shown the Door without their Golden Golden Parachutes? Milking Pension Plans and so called 401 K Plans are a Couple of the Biggest Swindles in the History of the World! :angry: (more Money than Bernie Madoff Stole!)

"Greed is Good!" - Gordon Geko/"Wall Street"


----------



## Nathanael

Meat Puppet said:


> I could be wrong but I thought the wine and cheese are on trade accounts. Free/heavily discounted wine and cheese in return Amtrak puts the brand names in the route guides online and in print.


You are correct. I don't drink wine, but the cheeses were definitely promotions on the part of the cheesemakers who offered them -- and promotions which worked, as I ordered some of the cheeses after I got off the train. Blessed are the cheesemakers.


----------



## Jackson Whole

SarahZ said:


> GOOG is your friend said:
> 
> 
> 
> Old data (some four years old), seems to indicate the *average* annual pay for Amtrak employees is $61K:http://www.careerbliss.com/amtrak/salaries/
> 
> It appears the "grunts", service attendants riding the trains are paid a wage far above what similar workers in the hospitality industry typically earn.
> 
> 
> 
> That's an average. That includes top brass. You really can't use that to extrapolate how much an attendant makes.
> 
> As has been discussed, ad nauseam, sleeper car attendants make approximately $38,000 per year.
> 
> This $90,000 b.s. is how rumors get started. People need to do research before believing some random, anonymous guest (not you, the original Chicken Little who posted that nonsense about $90,000/year). That's why my original post on the subject said "citation needed".
Click to expand...

According to this report from 2009, Amtrak's total employee wages and benefits were $1.7 billion and the number of employees was 18,600. 1.7B/18600 = $91K. True, that is an average, but the number is also four years old, does anyone seriously think their average payroll has declined? Amtrak has made themselves a target for criticism - show me an airline, a hotel, or a restaurant where the service staff earn a base pay of $35k+ a year. (http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/sites/downsizinggovernment.org/files/pdf/transportation-amtrak-subsidies.pdf)

The report also cites an average loss per passenger on the LD routes of ~$40. Again, that was four years ago and the losses may be higher today given the QE-driven price inflation we've seen in most consumer goods and energy prices. If nixing the amenities can shave costs by ~$50 per passenger (the stuff + labor + overhead), then it makes sense financially to get rid of them.


----------



## VentureForth

There's nothing solid about it. GML is talking about the management of one. And he is Lee Iacocca? Or Joe Boardman? So you get bad managers. That's the beauty of tree 401k. You get to manage your own investments within the risk parameters set forth by your employer. A good employer will match your contribution to a degree.

No one here is talking take home pay and the starting wage after training for an LSA is well over $30k before OT. I'm sure the average is being that. Unless we get a currently paid LSA with 30 years seniority to cough up their W2, we'll never know the top end.

Alan, we've talked about this before, and I know the RR retirement is separate from the SS system. But I was under the impression that the Amtrak pension plan was additional. Like I'm going to get ss from the feds, plus my 401k. If Amtrak is truly paying a higher percentage than their peers and receiving less, there should be a congressional hearing.

GML, it really is good to see you back even if you want to call BS on me.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using the Android Amtrak Forums mobile app


----------



## VentureForth

jimhudson said:


> Too bad you dont run one of the Giant Corporations that are Obscenly Profiting on the backs of their Workers Lion!  Wonder what all these Over Compensated CEOs would do if they Were suddenly Shown the Door without their Golden Golden Parachutes? Milking Pension Plans and so called 401 K Plans are a Couple of the Biggest Swindles in the History of the World! :angry: (more Money than Bernie Madoff Stole!)
> 
> "Greed is Good!" - Gordon Geko/"Wall Street"


Yes, I am bummed that I don't have the wherewithal to employ tens of thousands of workers to be productive and rewarded.  
How does anyone actually pillage a 401(k)?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using the Android Amtrak Forums mobile app


----------



## Bob Dylan

VentureForth said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad you dont run one of the Giant Corporations that are Obscenly Profiting on the backs of their Workers Lion!  Wonder what all these Over Compensated CEOs would do if they Were suddenly Shown the Door without their Golden Golden Parachutes? Milking Pension Plans and so called 401 K Plans are a Couple of the Biggest Swindles in the History of the World! :angry: (more Money than Bernie Madoff Stole!)
> 
> "Greed is Good!" - Gordon Geko/"Wall Street"
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am bummed that I don't have the wherewithal to employ tens of thousands of workers to be productive and rewarded.
> How does anyone actually pillage a 401(k)?
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using the Android Amtrak Forums mobile app
Click to expand...

Excellent Point about Inequities in Railroad Retirement! And as for Social Security, the last three Republican Presidents all talked about letting Workers put their Social Secuirty Money into Investments and the Stock market, this was DOA even in a Republican Congress! Bet the tens of Millions of Americans living on Social Security and Medicare/Medicad are Happy their Money wasnt in the Stock Market during the Big Melt- Down of 2008!  YMMV

They don't pillage employees 401K, they just don't do the Promised "Matches' and of course 401Ks don't have the Amount of Money end up in that Defined Pension Plans have to go along with a Guaranteed Fixed Amount Monthly Pension! 401Ks are Subject to the Whims of the Stock Market and Money Market Wizards, and just like in the last Great Crisis in 20008, lots of Hard Working/Long Time Employees will see their Retirement Disappear while the Execs @ th Top Reap Millions! True Story,you can look it up! And Why do those not Rich want to Carry Water for Billionaires and Bash other Workers that Actually Do the Work and Earn their Pensions! I know I'm not an Economist or a Money Wizard, Guess I'm just a Hopeless Socialist or Something like that!


----------



## TraneMan

I'm on the Empire Builder and there is champaign and cranberry juice. There's no shower bag, no vase/flower in the dinning car.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.


----------



## haolerider

Many, if not all of these amenities were introduced as a part of the Product Management group, which was headed by Brian Rosenwald. They were meant to enhance the rail experience on the long distance trains. The department seems to not exist anymore and the removal of he amenities are probably the last of the improvements. The overall inability of Operations to keep the consistency of implementation of the amenities seems to highlight the differences in focus of Operations versus attempts to improve the onboard experience.......or said simply......Operations has generally said the main focus of Amtrak is to run trains and other departments have no clue, since they are not " real railroders"! "Those damn passengers just get in the way"!


----------



## Trogdor

haolerider said:


> Many, if not all of these amenities were introduced as a part of the Product Management group, which was headed by Brian Rosenwald. They were meant to enhance the rail experience on the long distance trains. The department seems to not exist anymore and the removal of he amenities are probably the last of the improvements. The overall inability of Operations to keep the consistency of implementation of the amenities seems to highlight the differences in focus of Operations versus attempts to improve the onboard experience.......or said simply......Operations has generally said the main focus of Amtrak is to run trains and other departments have no clue, since they are not " real railroders"! "Those damn passengers just get in the way"!


This is probably the closest assessment of the truth I've seen in a while.

The Product Development (their most recent name, anyway) group/department/division/whatever was responsible for conducting the PRIIA studies on the long distance trains. However, before they even got to the FY12 trains (Builder, Starlight, Chief, etc.), their department had basically been put on notice that their jobs were going away in a restructuring (which was announced in September, 2011, and only just recently got completed; but that's a rant for another day).

I noted to someone else offline that the lack of ability to maintain a group of people together long enough to put together a plan and see it through to implementation (and giving them the power to ensure the implementation runs properly) has really prevented Amtrak from revamping long-distance train service, instead falling back on doing things the way they've been done since forever, give or take a flower or two.

Nobody at Amtrak really "owns" the PRIIA studies anymore, and it's becoming less and less likely that many of them will ever see the light of day.

Another example, from a few years ago, was the diner-lounge conversion. The concept, on paper, was actually pretty good (have a one-stop-shop where you can get anything from a cup of coffee to a candy bar to tasty appetizers to a full cooked meal, any time from 6 am to 11 pm). The implementation (outside of a couple of pilot runs with customer service personnel on board on the Capitol Limited back in 2005) sucked, and it turned into "replace the dining car with a worse-configured dining car but still pretend to provide the same old dining car service." If they had stuck with the original plan, it would have made sense to convert a dozen and a half cars into the new configuration. If they were just going to provide the same dining car service, with fewer people, then it absolutely made no sense to spend the money on reconfiguring the cars when a simple freshening up would have done. Instead, you had the plans made up, and the shops went full speed on car conversions, but nobody was interested in the follow-through of making sure the _service_ got changed.

So, it's really just the same sad cycles over and over again. Maybe some day in a few years someone will have the idea to offer wine tasting on trains as a way to attract people to the sleepers.


----------



## jis

And sadly outfits like NARP seem to be so beholden to Amtrak that they will never raise a finger about any of this and continue singing rah rahs no matter what. Sad.


----------



## Ryan

If only there were something we could do about that!


----------



## Anderson

GML,

First and foremost, welcome back.

As to the meat of your post, being on the business end of some pension issues, I can say that there's one major aspect you're forgetting, namely the train wreck that low interest rates have been for pension plans...especially in the last five years, with rates near zero. The effects of this aren't a matter of "mismanagement" insofar as interest rates going to zero and staying there was unforeseeable. Even going back to the 50s, when rates were lower, you still usually had the fed rate in the 1-3% range. Prior to 2008, I think I can find one month in 2003, three months in 1958, and three months in 1954 with the Fed funds rate <1%. Since December 2008, it hasn't broken .25% a single time.

This has had two effects. The first is that companies have seen lower returns on their pensions than expected on a grand scale. The more dramatic effect has been that the discount rate has been acting like these conditions will remain static. Unfortunately, by design the discount rate always behaves like this...so companies made a bunch of pension promises when their actuaries were feeding them numbers based on 10% interest rates until the end of time, and now they're having to make payments based on 0% interest rates until the end of time.

I suspect you can see where this goes very, very wrong: Pension plans which were fully funded, or even overfunded, as of 5-10 years ago are now showing up as being horridly underfunded and companies are having to shovel money in based on exceedingly brutal assumptions. A fair bit of blame should be put on the shoulders of the Fed for this...but the fact is that nobody, and I mean nobody, of significance was projecting five plus years of near-zero interest rates back in 2005. You can't blame companies for mismanaging a situation when the situation was utterly unforeseen and completely without precedent.

Does a company bear the obligations you mentioned? I'll grant that, but among other things those promises came with broad, unstated caveats about what those obligations were going to cost the company. Even those who operated with prudent assumptions of interest rates at historical levels such as we saw in the 50s and 60s, or in the late 90s and 2000s, have been totally whipsawed by this. They didn't make poor management decisions...they got run over by a course of government action aimed at fixing one problem that's made another one so much worse.


----------



## CoachSlumber

jimhudson said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad you dont run one of the Giant Corporations that are Obscenly Profiting on the backs of their Workers Lion!  Wonder what all these Over Compensated CEOs would do if they Were suddenly Shown the Door without their Golden Golden Parachutes? Milking Pension Plans and so called 401 K Plans are a Couple of the Biggest Swindles in the History of the World! :angry: (more Money than Bernie Madoff Stole!)
> 
> "Greed is Good!" - Gordon Geko/"Wall Street"
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am bummed that I don't have the wherewithal to employ tens of thousands of workers to be productive and rewarded.
> How does anyone actually pillage a 401(k)?
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using the Android Amtrak Forums mobile app
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Excellent Point about Inequities in Railroad Retirement! And as for Social Security, the last three Republican Presidents all talked about letting Workers put their Social Secuirty Money into Investments and the Stock market, this was DOA even in a Republican Congress! Bet the tens of Millions of Americans living on Social Security and Medicare/Medicad are Happy their Money wasnt in the Stock Market during the Big Melt- Down of 2008!  YMMV
> 
> They don't pillage employees 401K, they just don't do the Promised "Matches' and of course 401Ks don't have the Amount of Money end up in that Defined Pension Plans have to go along with a Guaranteed Fixed Amount Monthly Pension! 401Ks are Subject to the Whims of the Stock Market and Money Market Wizards, and just like in the last Great Crisis in 20008, lots of Hard Working/Long Time Employees will see their Retirement Disappear while the Execs @ th Top Reap Millions! True Story,you can look it up! And Why do those not Rich want to Carry Water for Billionaires and Bash other Workers that Actually Do the Work and Earn their Pensions! I know I'm not an Economist or a Money Wizard, Guess I'm just a Hopeless Socialist or Something like that!
Click to expand...

Depends on your age. Most of my 401k money was in the stock market at the meltdown. I left it in, and the total has grown. Those SS plans were for younger workers. As you get older you transfer more into bonds.


----------



## afigg

Trogdor said:


> Nobody at Amtrak really "owns" the PRIIA studies anymore, and it's becoming less and less likely that many of them will ever see the light of day.
> 
> Another example, from a few years ago, was the diner-lounge conversion. The concept, on paper, was actually pretty good (have a one-stop-shop where you can get anything from a cup of coffee to a candy bar to tasty appetizers to a full cooked meal, any time from 6 am to 11 pm). The implementation (outside of a couple of pilot runs with customer service personnel on board on the Capitol Limited back in 2005) sucked, and it turned into "replace the dining car with a worse-configured dining car but still pretend to provide the same old dining car service." If they had stuck with the original plan, it would have made sense to convert a dozen and a half cars into the new configuration. If they were just going to provide the same dining car service, with fewer people, then it absolutely made no sense to spend the money on reconfiguring the cars when a simple freshening up would have done. Instead, you had the plans made up, and the shops went full speed on car conversions, but nobody was interested in the follow-through of making sure the _service_ got changed.
> 
> So, it's really just the same sad cycles over and over again. Maybe some day in a few years someone will have the idea to offer wine tasting on trains as a way to attract people to the sleepers.


There is now a General Manager for LD services, so if the PIPs recommendations are to be implemented. it would be his responsibility. To be fair on the PIPs recommendations, many of them were waiting on the arrival of the Viewliner IIs which has been delayed or recommendations for schedule changes that are directly or indirectly dependent on track work projects that have also been taking a very looooong time to get started on construction.

The opening of the diner car to a cashless club-diner service on the LSL as an experiment was dependent on deploying an electronic Point Of Sale system. Once the LSL and the other eastern LD trains get the new diner cars, which I assume will come with a modern POS system, then we will see if the club-diner concept is still in the plans as an experiment. Or if it has been deep sixed because the OBSs did not like the idea.

BTW, in the Jan 2014 Amtrak Ink interview with Mark Murphy, the new GM for LD services, I'm surprised no one picked up on this part of his statement on looking at changes for the LD trains: "We will be looking at the dining car model, service delivery model, employee empowerment, sales and revenue incentives, *possible new routes* just to name a few". Talk is cheap and it probably means nothing, but he did state that for the record.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> And sadly outfits like NARP seem to be so beholden to Amtrak that they will never raise a finger about any of this and continue singing rah rahs no matter what. Sad.





RyanS said:


> If only there were something we could do about that!


 Has NARP not weighed in at all on this?


----------



## jis

We have not heard Boo from NARP regarding the PIPs, unfortunately.

Speaking of amenities, I just chanced upon the full OIG Report on F&B and found it very interesting reading. I can see that it will be immensely upsetting to some. But in case you are interested you can find the PDF document at:

http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001_0.pdf

It does address the issue of labor cost and addresses the cost and revenue per train.

Incidentally I was somewhat surprised to learn that the Palmetto travels a greater distance than the Capitol Limited and almost as much of a distance as the Auto Train. I should have noticed before.

F&B losses have primarily to do with labor cost, and now I am really curious to see how Mr. Boardman plans to deliver on his promise to eliminate all F&B losses, without eliminating at least some aspects of the F&B service while he is at it.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

afigg said:


> [
> 
> BTW, in the Jan 2014 Amtrak Ink interview with Mark Murphy, the new GM for LD services, I'm surprised no one picked up on this part of his statement on looking at changes for the LD trains: "We will be looking at the dining car model, service delivery model, employee empowerment, sales and revenue incentives, *possible new routes* just to name a few". Talk is cheap and it probably means nothing, but he did state that for the record.


I'm curious about possible new routes, but a new LD dining car model too? What in the world is that?


----------



## Anderson

D.P. Roberts said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> BTW, in the Jan 2014 Amtrak Ink interview with Mark Murphy, the new GM for LD services, I'm surprised no one picked up on this part of his statement on looking at changes for the LD trains: "We will be looking at the dining car model, service delivery model, employee empowerment, sales and revenue incentives, *possible new routes* just to name a few". Talk is cheap and it probably means nothing, but he did state that for the record.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious about possible new routes, but a new LD dining car model too? What in the world is that?
Click to expand...

Check the OIG report linked above. There's a number of proposed changes to the dining service models.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

VentureForth said:


> There's nothing solid about it. GML is talking about the management of one. And he is Lee Iacocca? Or Joe Boardman? So you get bad managers. That's the beauty of tree 401k. You get to manage your own investments within the risk parameters set forth by your employer. A good employer will match your contribution to a degree.
> 
> p


Listen, it might not be nice to say, but the almost all blue collar workers, and most lower tier white collar workers do not have the intelligence, knowledge, or time to manage their investments effectively. And please don't give me exceptions that prove the rule. They just don't. Competent management of money is a gift certain people have. The point of a pension department is to provide the employees with the advantages of having one.



Anderson said:


> GML,
> 
> First and foremost, welcome back.
> 
> As to the meat of your post, being on the business end of some pension issues, I can say that there's one major aspect you're forgetting, namely the train wreck that low interest rates have been for pension plans...especially in the last five years, with rates near zero. The effects of this aren't a matter of "mismanagement" insofar as interest rates going to zero and staying there was unforeseeable. Even going back to the 50s, when rates were lower, you still usually had the fed rate in the 1-3% range. Prior to 2008, I think I can find one month in 2003, three months in 1958, and three months in 1954 with the Fed funds rate <1%. Since December 2008, it hasn't broken .25% a single time.
> 
> This has had two effects. The first is that companies have seen lower returns on their pensions than expected on a grand scale. The more dramatic effect has been that the discount rate has been acting like these conditions will remain static. Unfortunately, by design the discount rate always behaves like this...so companies made a bunch of pension promises when their actuaries were feeding them numbers based on 10% interest rates until the end of time, and now they're having to make payments based on 0% interest rates until the end of time.
> 
> I suspect you can see where this goes very, very wrong: Pension plans which were fully funded, or even overfunded, as of 5-10 years ago are now showing up as being horridly underfunded and companies are having to shovel money in based on exceedingly brutal assumptions. A fair bit of blame should be put on the shoulders of the Fed for this...but the fact is that nobody, and I mean nobody, of significance was projecting five plus years of near-zero interest rates back in 2005. You can't blame companies for mismanaging a situation when the situation was utterly unforeseen and completely without precedent.
> 
> Does a company bear the obligations you mentioned? I'll grant that, but among other things those promises came with broad, unstated caveats about what those obligations were going to cost the company. Even those who operated with prudent assumptions of interest rates at historical levels such as we saw in the 50s and 60s, or in the late 90s and 2000s, have been totally whipsawed by this. They didn't make poor management decisions...they got run over by a course of government action aimed at fixing one problem that's made another one so much worse.


I dunno. My investment portfolio has grown an average of 16% year for the past ten years versus basis. I know I'm good, but I didn't think I was so good as to beat pension fund managers by such huge numbers.


----------



## tonys96

jis said:


> We have not heard Boo from NARP regarding the PIPs, unfortunately.
> 
> Speaking of amenities, I just chanced upon the full OIG Report on F&B and found it very interesting reading. I can see that it will be immensely upsetting to some. But in case you are interested you can find the PDF document at:
> 
> http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001_0.pdf
> 
> It does address the issue of labor cost and addresses the cost and revenue per train.
> 
> Incidentally I was somewhat surprised to learn that the Palmetto travels a greater distance than the Capitol Limited and almost as much of a distance as the Auto Train. I should have noticed before.
> 
> F&B losses have primarily to do with labor cost, and now I am really curious to see how Mr. Boardman plans to deliver on his promise to eliminate all F&B losses, without eliminating at least some aspects of the F&B service while he is at it.


This says the complimentary champagne, and wine and cheese cost $428,000 annually for the three routes that have it. and there are free meals to employees on PERSONAL travel on just ONE route cost over $260,000!

So the "savings" would be over 50% higher if the free "extras" given to people on personal travel on an employee pass on just this one route were cut also. Let me see.......free "extras" to those riding for free, but none for paying customers. Make sense?


----------



## Trogdor

tonys96 said:


> This says the complimentary champagne, and wine and cheese cost $428,000 annually for the three routes that have it. and there are free meals to employees on PERSONAL travel on just ONE route cost over $260,000!
> 
> So the "savings" would be over 50% higher if the free "extras" given to people on personal travel on an employee pass on just this one route were cut also. Let me see.......free "extras" to those riding for free, but none for paying customers. Make sense?


The one route is the Auto Train, where all passenger receive free meals (so your statement about free extras for passriders but not for paying customers is false).

On other routes, if an employee rides in business travel space, they do not get free meals. If they are in revenue space, they do get free meals, but actually have to pay for the sleeper at the employee rate (80% of the public fare).


----------



## afigg

D.P. Roberts said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> BTW, in the Jan 2014 Amtrak Ink interview with Mark Murphy, the new GM for LD services, I'm surprised no one picked up on this part of his statement on looking at changes for the LD trains: "We will be looking at the dining car model, service delivery model, employee empowerment, sales and revenue incentives, *possible new routes* just to name a few". Talk is cheap and it probably means nothing, but he did state that for the record.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious about possible new routes, but a new LD dining car model too? What in the world is that?=
Click to expand...

He was talking in context of LD services, the service model for how the dining car operates, not a new physical model of a dining car. There is a lot of pressure on Amtrak to reduce or eliminate food service losses or else which Boardman was responding to when he stated the goal of eliminating food and beverage service losses for the entire system in 5 years.

Dropping wine and cheese tastings for 3 trains, flower displays to trim costs is likely to be an early step in that process. Given how long a thread those modest changes has generated, bigger changes such as outsourcing could really heat up the Amtrak forums.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> We have not heard Boo from NARP regarding the PIPs, unfortunately.
> 
> Speaking of amenities, I just chanced upon the full OIG Report on F&B and found it very interesting reading. I can see that it will be immensely upsetting to some. But in case you are interested you can find the PDF document at:
> 
> http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001_0.pdf
> 
> It does address the issue of labor cost and addresses the cost and revenue per train.
> 
> Incidentally I was somewhat surprised to learn that the Palmetto travels a greater distance than the Capitol Limited and almost as much of a distance as the Auto Train. I should have noticed before.
> 
> F&B losses have primarily to do with labor cost, and now I am really curious to see how Mr. Boardman plans to deliver on his promise to eliminate all F&B losses, without eliminating at least some aspects of the F&B service while he is at it.


The Amtrak OIG report on F&B service is dated October 31, 2013, but somehow I didn't read it before. It is worthy of its own thread for discussion, although, yes, it will get heated.  Although how the F&B losses for the LD trains are calculated depend heavily on how the revenue is attributed. Interesting how the Acela First Class ticket revenue is allocated to the F&B costs.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

afigg said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> BTW, in the Jan 2014 Amtrak Ink interview with Mark Murphy, the new GM for LD services, I'm surprised no one picked up on this part of his statement on looking at changes for the LD trains: "We will be looking at the dining car model, service delivery model, employee empowerment, sales and revenue incentives, *possible new routes* just to name a few". Talk is cheap and it probably means nothing, but he did state that for the record.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious about possible new routes, but a new LD dining car model too? What in the world is that?=
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He was talking in context of LD services, the service model for how the dining car operates, not a new physical model of a dining car.
Click to expand...

I assumed that's what he meant - a new business model, not a new train car. But I'm curious as to what "new models" he may be considering. After reading the report mentioned previously, it really sounds like outsourcing is the only "model" they have in mind - and Subway is mentioned as a contractor on some routes. Well, they do mention several other models - like actually charging what the food service costs, or implementing a "non-food" sleeping car service - but it sounds like outsourcing is their main hope for making ends meet.

The report also indicates that labor cost is the main problem - both in terms of individual pay and the proportion of costs for dining. I do wonder whether a "Subway"-style service would reduce costs and increase consistency. Interestingly, the report lists "labor unrest" rather than "customer complaints" as the main drawback of a change to a food contractor.

Personally, I'd like to see Mr. Boardman use this politically- "Congress, we agree to turn our dining services over to a contractor and greatly reduce our other operational losses - in dining, as well as other areas. In return, we demand a bill that provides permanent, long-term funding for Amtrak that allows us to maintain and replace our equipment properly, and the ability to force our host railroads to run our trains on time."

Yes, we'd lose sit-down dining that so many people know and love. In return, though, we'd get trains that run on time on reliable equipment.

I'm sure it will never happen, but I think it would be a deal worth making.


----------



## roomette

I'd miss the steak. That's all, otherwise Subway or KFC or some Chipotle I could live with.


----------



## lirr42

roomette said:


> I'd miss the steak. That's all, otherwise Subway or KFC or some Chipotle I could live with.


The steak is among my favorite things about traveling on overnight trains. Hopefully it doesn't go away too quickly!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

D.P. Roberts said:


> Yes, we'd lose sit-down dining that so many people know and love. In return, though, we'd get trains that run on time on reliable equipment. I'm sure it will never happen, but I think it would be a deal worth making.


Any "deal" with this congress wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on. At this point our congress can't even be bothered to honor previous promises or to pass a legitimate annual budget anymore. Nothing they might promise us on Monday would mean anything on Tuesday. I don't see how we can improve Amtrak's service by letting an even less productive and even more dysfunctional branch of government dictate their policies and procedures through political posturing and micromanagement.


----------



## Anderson

On train distances:

That's true, but IIRC the Palmetto makes up quite a bit of time vs. the Cap (at least) because it's got running on both the NEC and a lot of 79 MPH running, while the Cap has to deal with both the mountains in MD/PA/WV and the approaches to Chicago. Also, the Auto Train is slightly dinged by its lower speed (it runs as an intermodal, not a passenger train).

On dining car stuff:
I know they're looking at tweaking staffing models, and I know they want to go to a cashless system. In all likelihood they'll be stuck with _some_ cash use in some form (I can already see the horror story of some poor guy being unable to buy food because he has no card with him; the best solution I can think of would be to have some sort of "special use card" that can be used in such instances, since the alternative is that passenger having to do a cash swap with other passengers onboard), but adding a POS system should speed things up substantially. There's also the "diner-club" model that's been suggested, which would mix café and diner food service options in a single car.

On dropping the diners:
The OIG report estimates a loss of 345k riders and $93m in revenue from such a switch. Put another way, even if axing the diners would eliminate 100% of food service losses, it would probably be a losing proposition for Amtrak by a wide margin. My best guess is it would gut the western LD trains' ridership rather spectacularly, while leaving some of the eastern routes in workable shape (such as the LSL or Cap, due to their shorter timeframes and the ability of travelers to get meals at WAS, CHI, and NYP).

There are possibly a few cases where the damage would be limited, such as the SAS-NOL section of the Sunset Limited. Doing this would allow a realignment of the diners to run CHI-SAS-LAX...which is roughly in line with the Daily Sunset proposal IIRC.

On OBS pay and so forth:
If Amtrak could trim pay back by 10% in real terms over a few years (possibly by "just" limiting pay increases), you'd at least have the LD diners moving into seasonal profitability. I believe pay should be a bit above the other operations listed (it is notable that VIA Rail is excluded, while none of the other operations run overnight services; differences in the US/Canadian labor markets are also not addressed), but at the same time it might be possible to get Amtrak's numbers closer to $40/hr.

-Of course, there's a fallacy in the data provided insofar as there's only one LSA while there are often 2-4 other OBS...averaging them likely distorts the numbers a bit on the high side.

-I also can't tell if the 180 hour figure included held-away time and so forth. I would assume it does. Of note, a minor tweak might be to reduce the 180 hour number back to 170-175. Technically, a full-time OBS employee is paid for 41.5 hours per "average" week (versus the 40 hours in a "standard" workweek). That tweak alone would be worth 3-5% in labor costs.


----------



## tonys96

Trogdor said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This says the complimentary champagne, and wine and cheese cost $428,000 annually for the three routes that have it. and there are free meals to employees on PERSONAL travel on just ONE route cost over $260,000! So the "savings" would be over 50% higher if the free "extras" given to people on personal travel on an employee pass on just this one route were cut also. Let me see.......free "extras" to those riding for free, but none for paying customers. Make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> The one route is the Auto Train, where all passenger receive free meals (so your statement about free extras for passriders but not for paying customers is false).On other routes, if an employee rides in business travel space, they do not get free meals. If they are in revenue space, they do get free meals, but actually have to pay for the sleeper at the employee rate (80% of the public fare).
Click to expand...

OIG report stated that FREE riders on AT getting FREE meals cost Amtrak over half what it costs to provide 'extras' to all paying customers on three routes. Period. No amount of spin changes that fact. But, that did not get cut. 'Extras' for paying customers did.


----------



## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> On train distances:
> 
> That's true, but IIRC the Palmetto makes up quite a bit of time vs. the Cap (at least) because it's got running on both the NEC and a lot of 79 MPH running, while the Cap has to deal with both the mountains in MD/PA/WV and the approaches to Chicago. Also, the Auto Train is slightly dinged by its lower speed (it runs as an intermodal, not a passenger train).


Just to quantify - the Palmetto runs 14 hours and 45 minutes vs the Capitol 16 hours; 829 miles vs 780, respectively.
Maybe the solution is to run Amfleets on the Capitol Limited, run it as a day train, eliminate the sleepers and diner? Of course, one reason why I would hesitate to take the Palmetto from SAV to NYP is that 15 hours without a real diner is a drag. I've done it once, and it gets miserable dining on cafe car food for three meals - and on a busy train, to be told around dinner time that everything is sold out.

Again, this OIG report is more focused on reducing expenses than generating more revenue. Very bad business sense.

Auto Train actually has its own speed designation on CSX timetables. Whereas Passenger Trains are 79 MPH, and intermodal (and all) freights are 59 MPH, the Auto Train gets its own speedlimit of 70 MPH (where applicable).

On Outsourcing:

WAFFLE HOUSE


----------



## Anderson

tonys96 said:


> tonys96, on 11 Feb 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trogdor, on 10 Feb 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96, on 10 Feb 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:This says the complimentary champagne, and wine and cheese cost $428,000 annually for the three routes that have it. and there are free meals to employees on PERSONAL travel on just ONE route cost over $260,000! So the "savings" would be over 50% higher if the free "extras" given to people on personal travel on an employee pass on just this one route were cut also. Let me see.......free "extras" to those riding for free, but none for paying customers. Make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> The one route is the Auto Train, where all passenger receive free meals (so your statement about free extras for passriders but not for paying customers is false).On other routes, if an employee rides in business travel space, they do not get free meals. If they are in revenue space, they do get free meals, but actually have to pay for the sleeper at the employee rate (80% of the public fare).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OIG report stated that FREE riders on AT getting FREE meals cost Amtrak over half what it costs to provide 'extras' to all paying customers on three routes. Period. No amount of spin changes that fact. But, that did not get cut. 'Extras' for paying customers did.
Click to expand...

I'm wondering if the issue here is that the Auto Train diner has no setup to process purchasing meals. Mind you, they could run the cost through the register in the café (or have a fixed-price meal voucher that they'd pay for in advance when booking their space)...


----------



## tonys96

VentureForth said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> On train distances:That's true, but IIRC the Palmetto makes up quite a bit of time vs. the Cap (at least) because it's got running on both the NEC and a lot of 79 MPH running, while the Cap has to deal with both the mountains in MD/PA/WV and the approaches to Chicago. Also, the Auto Train is slightly dinged by its lower speed (it runs as an intermodal, not a passenger train).
> 
> 
> 
> Just to quantify - the Palmetto runs 14 hours and 45 minutes vs the Capitol 16 hours; 829 miles vs 780, respectively.Maybe the solution is to run Amfleets on the Capitol Limited, run it as a day train, eliminate the sleepers and diner? Of course, one reason why I would hesitate to take the Palmetto from SAV to NYP is that 15 hours without a real diner is a drag. I've done it once, and it gets miserable dining on cafe car food for three meals - and on a busy train, to be told around dinner time that everything is sold out.Again, this OIG report is more focused on reducing expenses than generating more revenue. Very bad business sense.Auto Train actually has its own speed designation on CSX timetables. Whereas Passenger Trains are 79 MPH, and intermodal (and all) freights are 59 MPH, the Auto Train gets its own speedlimit of 70 MPH (where applicable).On Outsourcing:WAFFLE HOUSE
Click to expand...

Agreed that the emphasis on cutting costs instead of increasing revenues is short sighted. It is reaching over a dollar to pick up a dime.

Also agree on the Waffle House idea!


----------



## jis

This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.

We endlessly talk about employee morale or lack thereof. Well you wanna kill morale? Go for it. But don't complain when the inevitable consequences come and hit you in the butt!

BTW, I have done the Palmetto its entire length a couple of times now, and yes it is a bit much food wise if you just depend on the current Amtrak Cafe fare. I usually come on board with a good sandwich from an off board source for the lunch and that works out just fine. Shades of the food habits of traveling on current domestic airlines I am afraid, where I seem to be generally eating much better food these days than before. I know it is completely disturbing as a general phenomenon.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.


I recently read that Easyjet had won an award for the best on-plane food or something like that. Interestingly, they are also one of the few airlines who genuinely charge for all food and drinks. I am sure this is no coincidence. If you need to sell something to a customer who can say no, you've got to make sure what you're offering is genuinely attractive. On the other hand, if food is perceived as a freebie, customers are happy to raise their tolerance limits and there is no incentive by the provider to focus on quality.

Actually, I understand that Easyjet actually turns a profit with its catering business, but does not run all its flight routes at a profit. That would imply catering income is subsidizing flights rather than vice versa as is the case for most arlines.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> cirdan, on 11 Feb 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I recently read that Easyjet had won an award for the best on-plane food or something like that. Interestingly, they are also one of the few airlines who genuinely charge for all food and drinks. I am sure this is no coincidence. If you need to sell something to a customer who can say no, you've got to make sure what you're offering is genuinely attractive. On the other hand, if food is perceived as a freebie, customers are happy to raise their tolerance limits and there is no incentive by the provider to focus on quality.
> 
> Actually, I understand that Easyjet actually turns a profit with its catering business, but does not run all its flight routes at a profit. That would imply catering income is subsidizing flights rather than vice versa as is the case for most arlines.
Click to expand...

Very few airlines run all routes at a profit. Most of them at least have to eat some losses on "feeder" routes which connect passengers to higher-volume and/or higher-priced long haul routes. Likewise, there will always be seasons that routes do better than others...if you look at the numbers in the OIG report, Amtrak's LD OBS does _far_ overall at the summer peak (one month reports $41.24/OBS hour in revenue for the studied routes, vs. $41.19 in estimated hourly wages/benefits), and Amtrak even has seasons that are either profitable or very close to it. Airlines may be less tolerant of such losses now than in the past, but there are routes and days that even the most profitable airline has to eat some losses to keep passengers around on other days.


----------



## tonys96

Anderson said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan, on 11 Feb 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I recently read that Easyjet had won an award for the best on-plane food or something like that. Interestingly, they are also one of the few airlines who genuinely charge for all food and drinks. I am sure this is no coincidence. If you need to sell something to a customer who can say no, you've got to make sure what you're offering is genuinely attractive. On the other hand, if food is perceived as a freebie, customers are happy to raise their tolerance limits and there is no incentive by the provider to focus on quality.
> 
> Actually, I understand that Easyjet actually turns a profit with its catering business, but does not run all its flight routes at a profit. That would imply catering income is subsidizing flights rather than vice versa as is the case for most arlines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Very few airlines run all routes at a profit. Most of them at least have to eat some losses on "feeder" routes which connect passengers to higher-volume and/or higher-priced long haul routes. Likewise, there will always be seasons that routes do better than others...if you look at the numbers in the OIG report, Amtrak's LD OBS does _far_ overall at the summer peak (one month reports $41.24/OBS hour in revenue for the studied routes, vs. $41.19 in estimated hourly wages/benefits), and Amtrak even has seasons that are either profitable or very close to it. Airlines may be less tolerant of such losses now than in the past, but there are routes and days that even the most profitable airline has to eat some losses to keep passengers around on other days.
Click to expand...

Yes. The recommendation to cut staff at under utilized seasons is one that should be implemented, IMHO. But instead 'extras' were cut lowering the paying customer's traveling experience opportunities.


----------



## SubwayNut

jis said:


> This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.


I can think of witnessing the opposite happening on a plane, I was sitting next to a non-revving, commuting Delta pilot recently on an American Airlines domestic flight. When the Buy-On-Board Cart passed us the flight attendants asked him if he wanting anything. He said the Sandwich which was given to him free of charge, no credit card handed over for a swipe, I assume as a professional curtesy as a freebie he clearly expected.


----------



## jis

SubwayNut said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of witnessing the opposite happening on a plane, I was sitting next to a non-revving, commuting Delta pilot recently on an American Airlines domestic flight. When the Buy-On-Board Cart passed us the flight attendants asked him if he wanting anything. He said the Sandwich which was given to him free of charge, no credit card handed over for a swipe, I assume as a professional curtesy as a freebie he clearly expected.
Click to expand...

I suspect it has more to do with Union contracts. But I could be wrong of course. Saxman could probably give the inside story on this sort of thing.


----------



## cirdan

SubwayNut said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of witnessing the opposite happening on a plane, I was sitting next to a non-revving, commuting Delta pilot recently on an American Airlines domestic flight. When the Buy-On-Board Cart passed us the flight attendants asked him if he wanting anything. He said the Sandwich which was given to him free of charge, no credit card handed over for a swipe, I assume as a professional curtesy as a freebie he clearly expected.
Click to expand...

 The airlines are infamous for having been extremely generous with staff freebies back in the days when it rained money for them. Now they're having difficult backpedalling on that. I had a schoolfriend whose father worked for an airline as a maintenace technician, and the anount of free trips not just he but all his family were getting (including grown up kids who had their own household) was simply incredible.


----------



## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan, on 11 Feb 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I recently read that Easyjet had won an award for the best on-plane food or something like that. Interestingly, they are also one of the few airlines who genuinely charge for all food and drinks. I am sure this is no coincidence. If you need to sell something to a customer who can say no, you've got to make sure what you're offering is genuinely attractive. On the other hand, if food is perceived as a freebie, customers are happy to raise their tolerance limits and there is no incentive by the provider to focus on quality.
> 
> Actually, I understand that Easyjet actually turns a profit with its catering business, but does not run all its flight routes at a profit. That would imply catering income is subsidizing flights rather than vice versa as is the case for most arlines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Very few airlines run all routes at a profit. Most of them at least have to eat some losses on "feeder" routes which connect passengers to higher-volume and/or higher-priced long haul routes. Likewise, there will always be seasons that routes do better than others...if you look at the numbers in the OIG report, Amtrak's LD OBS does _far_ overall at the summer peak (one month reports $41.24/OBS hour in revenue for the studied routes, vs. $41.19 in estimated hourly wages/benefits), and Amtrak even has seasons that are either profitable or very close to it. Airlines may be less tolerant of such losses now than in the past, but there are routes and days that even the most profitable airline has to eat some losses to keep passengers around on other days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes. The recommendation to cut staff at under utilized seasons is one that should be implemented, IMHO. But instead 'extras' were cut lowering the paying customer's traveling experience opportunities.
Click to expand...

The report was also pretty up front about saying that the guaranteed hours agreements likely make this infeasible.
The other beef I have with the report is that using the "if we're as profitable year-round as we are during the busy season, we'd lose $x Million less" is a silly assumption. It's impractical to assume that you can maintain that level year round.


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> He was talking in context of LD services, the service model for how the dining car operates, not a new physical model of a dining car.


We already know one change which is already planned: electronic real-time inventory tracking. ("Point of Sale", they call it.) This is supposed to give the dining car staff more time to serve customers with the same number of total working hours, since they will spend a lot less time doing paperwork.
I'd like to see the results of that -- if the dining car stays open longer that would definitely give better financial results.


----------



## Nathanael

Green Maned Lion said:


> Listen, it might not be nice to say, but the almost all blue collar workers, and most lower tier white collar workers do not have the intelligence, knowledge, or time to manage their investments effectively.


Most higher-tier white collar workers don't either.



> And please don't give me exceptions that prove the rule. They just don't. Competent management of money is a gift certain people have. The point of a pension department is to provide the employees with the advantages of having one.





> I dunno. My investment portfolio has grown an average of 16% year for the past ten years versus basis. I know I'm good, but I didn't think I was so good as to beat pension fund managers by such huge numbers.


You are that good. I do a bit better than the market averages, and well enough to live off my investments, but I don't do nearly as well as you do. (I'm a very conservative investor, so that has something to do with it, but still.)


----------



## fairviewroad

Nathanael said:


> I'd like to see the results of that -- if the dining car stays open longer that would definitely give better financial results.


Perhaps, but simply being able to serve more customers during the current open hours would probably be even better.

How many people (i.e. coach passengers) are turned away during busy hours due to lack of available seating? We've

all had the experience of sitting around a diner waaaaiiiiittttingg for the server to show and up then later waaaaiiiiitttttiiinnng

for the other fellow to come and take your money. I'm not sure how much of that is due to lousy service as opposed to

antiquated paperwork procedures, but either way you really don't need to keep the diner open longer in order to

serve more customers.

(Not that I'm opposed to the diner staying open longer)


----------



## tonys96

fairviewroad said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to see the results of that -- if the dining car stays open longer that would definitely give better financial results.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but simply being able to serve more customers during the current open hours would probably be even better.
> 
> How many people (i.e. coach passengers) are turned away during busy hours due to lack of available seating? We've
> 
> all had the experience of sitting around a diner waaaaiiiiittttingg for the server to show and up then later waaaaiiiiitttttiiinnng
> 
> for the other fellow to come and take your money. I'm not sure how much of that is due to lousy service as opposed to
> 
> antiquated paperwork procedures, but either way you really don't need to keep the diner open longer in order to
> 
> serve more customers.
> 
> (Not that I'm opposed to the diner staying open longer)
Click to expand...

Agreed. The fixed costs (salary/benefits, etc) are the same whether there are three people served a meal, or if there are three seatings full for that meal. The only variable is the cost of the materials (food). Increasing revenues is the way to go, and that happens by serving more customers or raising the price points. At current prices, increasing them would likely result in a net loss, due to more folks opting to not use the diner, so the remaining way to increase revenue is to serve more patrons.


----------



## rrdude

fairviewroad said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to see the results of that -- if the dining car stays open longer that would definitely give better financial results.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but simply being able to serve more customers during the current open hours would probably be even better.
> 
> How many people (i.e. coach passengers) are turned away during busy hours due to lack of available seating? We've
> 
> all had the experience of sitting around a diner waaaaiiiiittttingg for the server to show and up then later waaaaiiiiitttttiiinnng
> 
> for the other fellow to come and take your money. I'm not sure how much of that is due to lousy service as opposed to
> 
> antiquated paperwork procedures, but either way you really don't need to keep the diner open longer in order to
> 
> serve more customers.
> 
> (Not that I'm opposed to the diner staying open longer)
Click to expand...

Having been an Amtrak Dining Car employee in the late 70's and early 80's, *and then* making my adult-career in the POS business, (and consulted with Amtrak on this back in the mid-90's, when they still had the vertical business units *VBU*)

I have a pretty good perspective on this.

POS will help with END of TRIP reports, (as they presently have the implementation planned) but _* unless they migrate to a tablet, or table-side ordering*_, we will not see much of an impact on the dining times of passengers. *AND*, thee single most important aspect of introducing POS to a restaurant that has not used them before, *single most important aspect*, is the management buy-in, or acceptance of it.

I've seen IBM SurePOS 1's (now sold by Toshiba) on the side of the ROW along the NEC. Why? LSA's didn't want it!

Ivy City (Maint facility in DC) had a huge amount of damaged/destroyed IBM units, along with all the other "operable units" They were joined later on by the NCR units I sold Amtrak, and then even later by the Ciao CacheBox units sold by Jonathon W. Price. (He beat out Micros and NCR 2170 for the RFP, because he had been doing Govt Contract and RFP's for years, and he was able to help 'write" the RFP. I knew from day one when I saw the RFP, that Ciao had written it..................)

Amtrak California has been the most successful with POS, and I believe it is a variable of that model/software that is being installed system-wide in the lounge and cafe cars.

POS for full-service diners is a whole other beast, I surely hope they are not trying to "put a square peg in a round hole" by using the POS s/w they are using in the lounge cars, in the diner too.

As soon as they (if ever) start using either a tablet or other handheld _*at the table*_, (then the orders shoot directly to the kitchen!) then you will see a modest improvement in TABLE-TURNS, provided they kitchen can keep up with the flow of orders. (Years ago, Taco Bell tested customer-facing kiosks, and had to stop the tests, as the kitchen could not keep up with the volume. Cashiers taking the orders provided an artificial "buffer" in the amount and speed in which orders were sent to the kitchen. Now, kisok, or "customer facing" POS units are all the rage, and exploding into the Quick Casual (Think Chipotle, Quizno's Five Guys) and Quick Service (Think Micky D's, Taco Bell [deja vu all over again for them], BK, Wendy's, Chik Fil A)

Customer Facing Kiosks (Full Disclosure, the previous link is the company I work for) have made huge impacts at C-Stores like Wawa and Sheetz. They are creeping into sit-down restaurant too, as Applebees just cut short a pilot, and decided to roll out the Presto tablets in all of Applebee's locations. The ROI for Applebee's is off-the-chart great. You can't order _everything_ off the menu, but you can get started, (apps and drinks) and for a mere .99 more, (Thanks for the idea Apple Corp.) you can play unlimited games! The amount of money that Applebee's has made _*just on the games*_ has exceeded even the most wild prediction that anyone at Applebee's had. Chili's has tested similar, and so it goes.

And, it goes one further, my company, among others, are now piloting s/w that allows user to use their own device, (iPhone, Droid, Tablet) log onto the restaurant's web site, and place their own orders. (only if you want to) It's called *B*ring *Y*our *O*wn *D*evice (BYOD) Imagine the savings that chains will have with this? No more deploying and maintaining thousands of POS and CC terminals, customers will just use their own phones/tablets!

Several grocery retailers are already doing it. Giant Foods, a grocer in my area, for years has had "hand-held" scanners that one can check out upon entering the store, scan and bag your groceries as you shop, and then scan "END of ORDER" at the checkout, and away you go after paying. (there are random audits, but the savings vs. having add'l cashiers is still lower, even with the shrinkage) Just recently, they offered an APP for the iPhone that allows me to bypass picking up a hand-held scanner in the store. Now I just enter the store, my phone automatically joins the Giant WiFi, and I start scanning and bagging my own groceries, with my phone!

So, if Amtrak is wise, "some time soon", you'll be able to enter the dining car, whip out your phone or tablet, and place your own order.

I guess the day of the passenger filling out their own order _*really will be*_ LONG GONE.


----------



## RalphCT

I've never filled out my order. The most I've ever done is signed the form and added my room and car number. The dining car staff took car of the rest. Why would I want to fill out an order form now, either paper or electronic?

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


----------



## afigg

Nathanael said:


> We already know one change which is already planned: electronic real-time inventory tracking. ("Point of Sale", they call it.) This is supposed to give the dining car staff more time to serve customers with the same number of total working hours, since they will spend a lot less time doing paperwork.
> 
> I'd like to see the results of that -- if the dining car stays open longer that would definitely give better financial results.


I expect that implementation of electronic POS and inventory tracking will have wide ranging implications for the dining car staff. My takeaway from the OIG report is how haphazard and inconsistent the management and staff procedures are for the F&B services. Lack of detailed data on food sales and inventory tracking for one.
Another is Figure 3 which shows the wide range in revenue per rider across the lead service attendants on the CL. This is not a surprise with the frequent reports of how some dining staffs make the effort to make the dining service available to coach passengers and others don't give a damn. Detailed sales and passenger count data at the end of each trip by meal and time will provide quick feedback on which crews are bringing in the revenue and which are not. Start an incentive program to quickly award the crews with food sales above the median and the diner car sales to coach passengers should increase. Of course, there may be difficulty in implementing an valid incentive program.


----------



## rrdude

RalphCT said:


> I've never filled out my order. The most I've ever done is signed the form and added my room and car number. The dining car staff took car of the rest. Why would I want to fill out an order form now, either paper or electronic?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


For years, dining car passengers filled out their own order, by simply checking the boxes. Even Amtrak continued this until they started scanning the forms, and the scanners only like a certain color ink, then they asked the server to fill them out _*for*_ the passengers...........


----------



## rrdude

afigg said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> We already know one change which is already planned: electronic real-time inventory tracking. ("Point of Sale", they call it.) This is supposed to give the dining car staff more time to serve customers with the same number of total working hours, since they will spend a lot less time doing paperwork.
> 
> I'd like to see the results of that -- if the dining car stays open longer that would definitely give better financial results.
> 
> 
> 
> I expect that implementation of electronic POS and inventory tracking will have wide ranging implications for the dining car staff. My takeaway from the OIG report is how haphazard and inconsistent the management and staff procedures are for the F&B services. Lack of detailed data on food sales and inventory tracking for one.
> Another is Figure 3 which shows the wide range in revenue per rider across the lead service attendants on the CL. This is not a surprise with the frequent reports of how some dining staffs make the effort to make the dining service available to coach passengers and others don't give a damn. Detailed sales and passenger count data at the end of each trip by meal and time will provide quick feedback on which crews are bringing in the revenue and which are not. Start an incentive program to quickly award the crews with food sales above the median and the diner car sales to coach passengers should increase. Of course, there may be difficulty in implementing an valid incentive program.
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, the *DATA* that the POS units, coupled with the train's passenger manifest, will provide is all EXACTLY as you state. It will point out numerous inefficiencies and areas that need improvement. But management *must read, interpret, and then ACT on the data........*


----------



## saxman

jis said:


> SubwayNut said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> This business about free riders getting free meals is getting a bit over the top IMHO. I have never heard of an airline charging specially for meals of the people traveling non-rev or on passes, on flights that serve free meals in general. It is nice to know what it costs, but that does not mean it is a good idea to try to recover that cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of witnessing the opposite happening on a plane, I was sitting next to a non-revving, commuting Delta pilot recently on an American Airlines domestic flight. When the Buy-On-Board Cart passed us the flight attendants asked him if he wanting anything. He said the Sandwich which was given to him free of charge, no credit card handed over for a swipe, I assume as a professional curtesy as a freebie he clearly expected.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suspect it has more to do with Union contracts. But I could be wrong of course. Saxman could probably give the inside story on this sort of thing.
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with union contracts or anything. It's just an unwritten courtesy to give other crewmembers free food and amenities when they are commuting on different airlines. It happens to me all the time. However when "non-reving" those folks get the same service offered in the cabin in which they are sitting. But sometimes the FA's feel generous a sneak a meal to their friends or something.


----------



## Ryan

RalphCT said:


> I've never filled out my order. The most I've ever done is signed the form and added my room and car number. The dining car staff took car of the rest. Why would I want to fill out an order form now, either paper or electronic?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


Why would I want to wait for a server to come around and take my order when I can fire it down to the kitchen as soon as I decide and get my meal that much faster?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

RalphCT said:


> I've never filled out my order. The most I've ever done is signed the form and added my room and car number. The dining car staff took car of the rest. Why would I want to fill out an order form now, either paper or electronic?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys train travel.


I fondly recall my early Amtrak travels when I had to use a stubby Ampencil and write out my order on the form; of course the rocking of the Diner didn't help but I always got what I attempted to write down.


----------



## printman2000

Well, there is good news. All these cuts are aparently going to help save the Southwest Chief's current route...

http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service



> U.S. Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., for one, was impressed.
> 
> “I am proud Amtrak is cutting unnecessary spending in order to ensure the Southwest Chief can continue to serve the residents of Trinidad, Lamar and La Junta,”
> - See more at: http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service#sthash.1Ek1cB1I.dpuf


I am sure these cuts will add up to the millions needed to save the route. (sarcasm)


----------



## rrdude

printman2000 said:


> Well, there is good news. All these cuts are aparently going to help save the Southwest Chief's current route...
> 
> http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., for one, was impressed.
> “I am proud Amtrak is cutting unnecessary spending in order to ensure the Southwest Chief can continue to serve the residents of Trinidad, Lamar and La Junta,”
> 
> - See more at: http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service#sthash.1Ek1cB1I.dpuf
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure these cuts will add up to the millions needed to save the route. (sarcasm)
Click to expand...

Well, I wish I'd known Boardman's stance BEFORE I wasted time penning him a letter. I'm actually surprised he mentioned them. However, it validates what some other posters suggested, that this cut is being done purely for political capital, that is "earning points" (or at least hoping to) with certain detractors


----------



## greatcats

I like the sentiments, but something is wrong with that picture.


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> We already know one change which is already planned: electronic real-time inventory tracking. ("Point of Sale", they call it.) This is supposed to give the dining car staff more time to serve customers with the same number of total working hours, since they will spend a lot less time doing paperwork.
> 
> I'd like to see the results of that -- if the dining car stays open longer that would definitely give better financial results.
> 
> 
> 
> I expect that implementation of electronic POS and inventory tracking will have wide ranging implications for the dining car staff. My takeaway from the OIG report is how haphazard and inconsistent the management and staff procedures are for the F&B services. Lack of detailed data on food sales and inventory tracking for one.
> Another is Figure 3 which shows the wide range in revenue per rider across the lead service attendants on the CL. This is not a surprise with the frequent reports of how some dining staffs make the effort to make the dining service available to coach passengers and others don't give a damn. Detailed sales and passenger count data at the end of each trip by meal and time will provide quick feedback on which crews are bringing in the revenue and which are not. Start an incentive program to quickly award the crews with food sales above the median and the diner car sales to coach passengers should increase. Of course, there may be difficulty in implementing an valid incentive program.
Click to expand...

There have also been a few cases where, due to some of the "Chicago issues", the Cap would get equipment late. This tends to trigger a cascade that makes it _very_ difficult to fit coach folks into the diner.


----------



## rrdude

Anderson said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> We already know one change which is already planned: electronic real-time inventory tracking. ("Point of Sale", they call it.) This is supposed to give the dining car staff more time to serve customers with the same number of total working hours, since they will spend a lot less time doing paperwork.
> 
> I'd like to see the results of that -- if the dining car stays open longer that would definitely give better financial results.
> 
> 
> 
> I expect that implementation of electronic POS and inventory tracking will have wide ranging implications for the dining car staff. My takeaway from the OIG report is how haphazard and inconsistent the management and staff procedures are for the F&B services. Lack of detailed data on food sales and inventory tracking for one.
> Another is Figure 3 which shows the wide range in revenue per rider across the lead service attendants on the CL. This is not a surprise with the frequent reports of how some dining staffs make the effort to make the dining service available to coach passengers and others don't give a damn. Detailed sales and passenger count data at the end of each trip by meal and time will provide quick feedback on which crews are bringing in the revenue and which are not. Start an incentive program to quickly award the crews with food sales above the median and the diner car sales to coach passengers should increase. Of course, there may be difficulty in implementing an valid incentive program.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There have also been a few cases where, due to some of the "Chicago issues", the Cap would get equipment late. This tends to trigger a cascade that makes it _very_ difficult to fit coach folks into the diner.
Click to expand...

That too is a BIG problem, at least IMHO.

When I was younger and traveled coach, a lot, I almost always ate every meal in the diner....

As a Dining Car employee, I often was selected to "walk the train" announcing the opening of the dining car thru the coaches. (One was instructed to walk to the FRONT of the train, and THEN make the announcements while walking BACK towards the diner, otherwise, one would have to "fight for aisle space" making one's way back to the diner...)


----------



## Jackson Whole

afigg said:


> Start an incentive program to quickly award the crews with food sales above the median and the diner car sales to coach passengers should increase. Of course, there may be difficulty in implementing an valid incentive program.


Difficulty? Impossibility -- the union would never allow anything like that to enter the agreement.


----------



## rrdude

Jackson Whole said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Start an incentive program to quickly award the crews with food sales above the median and the diner car sales to coach passengers should increase. Of course, there may be difficulty in implementing an valid incentive program.
> 
> 
> 
> Difficulty? Impossibility -- the union would never allow anything like that to enter the agreement.
Click to expand...

I agree, even thou if run correctly, it may actually _*increase*_ the number of positions that may be needed, which would mean more hours for union employees. Theoretically. But see, the *union* wouldn't have any control over that, and therein lies the rub. (all speculative, of course) and if the union _can't control it_, then the union doesn't want to touch it, _even if_ it were good for the union........... Don't get me started. (I still have my Brotherhood union card, pisses me off every time I look at it)


----------



## fairviewroad

RyanS said:


> RalphCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never filled out my order. The most I've ever done is signed the form and added my room and car number. The dining car staff took car of the rest. Why would I want to fill out an order form now, either paper or electronic?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys train travel.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would I want to wait for a server to come around and take my order when I can fire it down to the kitchen as soon as I decide and get my meal that much faster?
Click to expand...

I agree with *RyanS* on this one. With the limited menu on Amtrak's dining car, I usually know what I want before I even sit down, or can decide within the first 45 seconds. Yet the usual pattern is to sit and wait and wait and wait for the server to show up so they can write it on a piece of paper and carry it over (or down) to the kitchen. If there's a better way, I'm all for it. The romance of eating a meal while the scenery glides by doesn't really kick in, IMO, until you're actually eating. Sitting around wondering if the staff is aware of your existence isn't a fun way to start.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Although I see the logic that I do not appreciate the dehumanization of the world especially on an Amtrak train


----------



## Anderson

fairviewroad said:


> fairviewroad, on 12 Feb 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS, on 11 Feb 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> RalphCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> RalphCT, on 11 Feb 2014 - 6:23 PM, said:I've never filled out my order. The most I've ever done is signed the form and added my room and car number. The dining car staff took car of the rest. Why would I want to fill out an order form now, either paper or electronic?
> 
> A Montanan who enjoys train travel.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would I want to wait for a server to come around and take my order when I can fire it down to the kitchen as soon as I decide and get my meal that much faster?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree with *RyanS* on this one. With the limited menu on Amtrak's dining car, I usually know what I want before I even sit down, or can decide within the first 45 seconds. Yet the usual pattern is to sit and wait and wait and wait for the server to show up so they can write it on a piece of paper and carry it over (or down) to the kitchen. If there's a better way, I'm all for it. The romance of eating a meal while the scenery glides by doesn't really kick in, IMO, until you're actually eating. Sitting around wondering if the staff is aware of your existence isn't a fun way to start.
Click to expand...

There's an incidental point here: If I'm not mistaken, back in "the day", wouldn't you fill out and hand in your check rather than "having your order taken" as we do now?


----------



## Meat Puppet

I'm holding a protest wine and cheese tasting on my EB and CS trip in June. Giving out free wine and cheese to everyone in my sleeper car. Maybe I will even ask some trivia questions.


----------



## rtabern

My thoughts??

I think the biggest losses for me as a regular long-distance passenger will be the wine and cheese tastings. It was a nice touch on the Empire Builder to help pass through the boring scenery of eastern Montana... and there was just something about the wine and cheese tasting that brought that much more to the Pacific Parlour Cars. It made you truly First Class and special. The cranberry juice cut too isn't cool... that was always my preference when it came to the juices. I can certainly live without the travel kit and the newspapers (NEVER read them... didn't care what was going on when I am on vacation).

I love Amtrak and will always ride as long as the trains are rolling... however... I see this all as a bad sign... and might make me do a driving trip here and there more often than take the train. I will still do a couple of LD trips a year because they are fun, but they're not going to be as special as they once were. I remember as a kid when they had trivia and bingo and games and the piano in the SSL cars. They're SLOWLY taking the little perks away... and it makes me less inclined to travel.

I think the biggest thing it will do... is make me take VIA more than AMTRAK when I'm in the mood for a nice long train ride. That is what I am doing this year --- VIA instead of Amtrak. And yes, the cut in amenities... and especially not having a Pacific Parlour Car the last 3 out of 4 times I've taken the Coast Starlight have played a minor factor in all of that.

I mean if you can get a VIA 50 percent off sale... and get a bedroom for 2 in the Park Car for around the same price as a bedroom on the Empire Builder (like we did with our trip coming up at the end of May this year) which are you going to pick?? The food is clearly better on VIA. They have 4 dome cars and a round-end observation car on VIA... Amtrak has just the SSL. The mattresses are a heck of a lot more comfortable on VIA. They actually have activities still for passengers going on at VIA in the cars. The OBS employees generally seemed more pleasant.

I think that will be the biggest thing for me in future years. If I'm itching for a LD train ride and can get a 50 percent off VIA sale... I'm going to do that instead of a LD trip on Amtrak. If I can't... I'll probably do an Amtrak route.

I'm just afraid the Parlour Cars will be the next cut.


----------



## buddy559

i was curious, and I am pretty sure I know the answer, but on my trip out, we had vases and flowers in all the bathrooms in our car. I think those were provided by the SCA. But we also had, in every bathroom, both a big container of Lysol wipes, and a can of Febreeze air freshener. Were these provided by the SCA?


----------



## Bob Dylan

buddy559 said:


> i was curious, and I am pretty sure I know the answer, but on my trip out, we had vases and flowers in all the bathrooms in our car. I think those were provided by the SCA. But we also had, in every bathroom, both a big container of Lysol wipes, and a can of Febreeze air freshener. Were these provided by the SCA?


Yes, Good SCAs take care of their Cars including the Bathrooms and Shower since they also Live in the Car (Room #1 on Superliners) for the duration of the LD Route!


----------



## tonys96

printman2000 said:


> Well, there is good news. All these cuts are aparently going to help save the Southwest Chief's current route...
> 
> http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., for one, was impressed.
> “I am proud Amtrak is cutting unnecessary spending in order to ensure the Southwest Chief can continue to serve the residents of Trinidad, Lamar and La Junta,”
> 
> - See more at: http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service#sthash.1Ek1cB1I.dpuf
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure these cuts will add up to the millions needed to save the route. (sarcasm)
Click to expand...

Udall has no credibility after this quote "“I am proud Amtrak is cutting unnecessary spending in order to ensure the Southwest Chief can continue to serve the residents of Trinidad, Lamar and La Junta"

Sure, the 480K saved by these cuts will be enough to ENSURE the SWC going through these towns. :blink:


----------



## PRR 60

tonys96 said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is good news. All these cuts are aparently going to help save the Southwest Chief's current route...
> 
> http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., for one, was impressed.
> 
> “I am proud Amtrak is cutting unnecessary spending in order to ensure the Southwest Chief can continue to serve the residents of Trinidad, Lamar and La Junta,”
> 
> - See more at: http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service#sthash.1Ek1cB1I.dpuf
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure these cuts will add up to the millions needed to save the route. (sarcasm)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Udall has no credibility after this quote "“I am proud Amtrak is cutting unnecessary spending in order to ensure the Southwest Chief can continue to serve the residents of Trinidad, Lamar and La Junta"
> Sure, the 480K saved by these cuts will be enough to ENSURE the SWC going through these towns. :blink:
Click to expand...

It seems Senator Udall did not come up with that himself. He was told that by (wait for it)..., Joe Boardman. Here is the quote:



> Cutting costs and eliminating those losses keeps Amtrak moving toward its goal of continuing " to serve small-town America that is being abandoned by airlines and bus companies," Boardman said, "and keep communities such as Trinidad and La Junta ... connected by rail to the rest of the nation."


Denver Post


----------



## WICT106

PRR 60 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is good news. All these cuts are aparently going to help save the Southwest Chief's current route...
> 
> http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., for one, was impressed.
> 
> “I am proud Amtrak is cutting unnecessary spending in order to ensure the Southwest Chief can continue to serve the residents of Trinidad, Lamar and La Junta,”
> 
> - See more at: http://www.chieftain.com/news/pueblo/2281259-120/amtrak-ceo-pueblo-service#sthash.1Ek1cB1I.dpuf
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure these cuts will add up to the millions needed to save the route. (sarcasm)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Udall has no credibility after this quote "“I am proud Amtrak is cutting unnecessary spending in order to ensure the Southwest Chief can continue to serve the residents of Trinidad, Lamar and La Junta"
> Sure, the 480K saved by these cuts will be enough to ENSURE the SWC going through these towns. :blink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It seems Senator Udall did not come up with that himself. He was told that by (wait for it)..., Joe Boardman. Here is the quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting costs and eliminating those losses keeps Amtrak moving toward its goal of continuing " to serve small-town America that is being abandoned by airlines and bus companies," Boardman said, "and keep communities such as Trinidad and La Junta ... connected by rail to the rest of the nation."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Denver Post
Click to expand...

The only congressman I know of who has actually ridden aboard a Long Distance train has been Mike Quigley (D-IL). During the most recent Midwest HSRA roundtable meeting (Jan 30), He stated that he has ridden aboard the Capitol Ltd. Judging from his facial expression, he was not impressed. Udall probably has never been aboard the SW Chief, or any LD train for that matter.


----------



## yarrow

just a current amenities report from spk-sea today on the eb. no flowers in the diner. still cranberry juice, chocolate squares, and spokesman-review(spk paper)in the sleeper. also for those who boarded up the line champagne/sparkling cider based on stock i saw in the sca's room. also, new emergency snack pax. no more rubber cheese. just shortbread cookies, bag of almonds and bag of goldfish like crackers.


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## oregon pioneer

yarrow said:


> just a current amenities report from spk-sea today on the eb. no flowers in the diner. still cranberry juice, chocolate squares, and spokesman-review(spk paper)in the sleeper. also for those who boarded up the line champagne/sparkling cider based on stock i saw in the sca's room. also, new emergency snack pax. no more rubber cheese. just shortbread cookies, bag of almonds and bag of goldfish like crackers.


Yarrow, are those snack packs standard issue? I only remember them from when my SCA on the EB was Charles.


----------



## yarrow

oregon pioneer said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> just a current amenities report from spk-sea today on the eb. no flowers in the diner. still cranberry juice, chocolate squares, and spokesman-review(spk paper)in the sleeper. also for those who boarded up the line champagne/sparkling cider based on stock i saw in the sca's room. also, new emergency snack pax. no more rubber cheese. just shortbread cookies, bag of almonds and bag of goldfish like crackers.
> 
> 
> 
> Yarrow, are those snack packs standard issue? I only remember them from when my SCA on the EB was Charles.
Click to expand...

i remember charles too. cool guy. as far as the snack packs, my experience has been that when the train is 6+ hours late they hand them out to everybody. we were only around 4 hours late into sea today and they brought out big boxes of them anyway. but i believe they only give them out on late trains not for a sleeper amenity


----------



## tim49424

yarrow said:


> oregon pioneer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> just a current amenities report from spk-sea today on the eb. no flowers in the diner. still cranberry juice, chocolate squares, and spokesman-review(spk paper)in the sleeper. also for those who boarded up the line champagne/sparkling cider based on stock i saw in the sca's room. also, new emergency snack pax. no more rubber cheese. just shortbread cookies, bag of almonds and bag of goldfish like crackers.
> 
> 
> 
> Yarrow, are those snack packs standard issue? I only remember them from when my SCA on the EB was Charles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i remember charles too. cool guy. as far as the snack packs, my experience has been that when the train is 6+ hours late they hand them out to everybody. we were only around 4 hours late into sea today and they brought out big boxes of them anyway. but i believe they only give them out on late trains not for a sleeper amenity
Click to expand...

Never heard of them and all 4 LD trains (Empire Builder) I've ever been on were 6+ hours late. That must be a SEA thing as I've only been in the PDX sleepers.


----------



## kiwiaz

Was going to say I found the chocolate squares! At the wine and cheese (and chocolate) on the CS today. Yum.


----------



## yarrow

tim54449 said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oregon pioneer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> just a current amenities report from spk-sea today on the eb. no flowers in the diner. still cranberry juice, chocolate squares, and spokesman-review(spk paper)in the sleeper. also for those who boarded up the line champagne/sparkling cider based on stock i saw in the sca's room. also, new emergency snack pax. no more rubber cheese. just shortbread cookies, bag of almonds and bag of goldfish like crackers.
> 
> 
> 
> Yarrow, are those snack packs standard issue? I only remember them from when my SCA on the EB was Charles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i remember charles too. cool guy. as far as the snack packs, my experience has been that when the train is 6+ hours late they hand them out to everybody. we were only around 4 hours late into sea today and they brought out big boxes of them anyway. but i believe they only give them out on late trains not for a sleeper amenity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never heard of them and all 4 LD trains (Empire Builder) I've ever been on were 6+ hours late. That must be a SEA thing as I've only been in the PDX sleepers.
Click to expand...

actually i think the snack packs are primarily intended for coach passengers when the trains are late. they have been handed out in the ssl on previous late trains we have been on. today was the first time i have seen the sca bring them into the sleepers


----------



## Nathanael

PRR 60 said:


> It seems Senator Udall did not come up with that himself. He was told that by (wait for it)..., Joe Boardman. Here is the quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting costs and eliminating those losses keeps Amtrak moving toward its goal of continuing " to serve small-town America that is being abandoned by airlines and bus companies," Boardman said, "and keep communities such as Trinidad and La Junta ... connected by rail to the rest of the nation."
> 
> 
> 
> Denver Post
Click to expand...

Hah. What a weasely statement. Communities *such as* Trinidad and La Junta. But not actually including Trinidad or La Junta, which will lose service. Perhaps Devil's Lake, which is a community *such as* Trinidad and La Junta.


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## yarrow

now on the cs sea-sac. all the amenities we have grown used to. was talking to the ppc attendant. he said he wasn't aware the deletion of wine tastes "had been made public". he also told me "we almost lost the parlour cars last month, too".


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## yarrow

was showing our ppc attendant the amtrak amenities deletion memo that was posted on train orders. he said "that's not supposed to be public". which opens the question of "why not" as the amenities are currently advertised to those making reservations. he also said ppc attendants were told the ppcs would be gone as of this week but someone in amtrak must have complained and our attendant said the current memo is the compromise


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## Bob Dylan

yarrow said:


> he also said ppc attendants were told the ppcs would be gone as of this week but someone in amtrak must have complained and our attendant said the current memo is the compromise


 Say it ain't so Joe!  We know these Jewels cant last forever but anyone who has a ride on the CS for the PPC on their Bucket List should Book it soon as Possible! Once they're Gone, it's History like so many Grand Old Rail Favorites!


----------



## yarrow

jimhudson said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> he also said ppc attendants were told the ppcs would be gone as of this week but someone in amtrak must have complained and our attendant said the current memo is the compromise
> 
> 
> 
> Say it ain't so Joe!  We know these Jewels cant last forever but anyone who has a ride on the CS for the PPC on their Bucket List should Book it soon as Possible! Once they're Gone, it's History like so many Grand Old Rail Favorites!
Click to expand...

according to our ppc attendant the current cuts are the compromise between, evidently, boardman and his ilk and those, in amtrak, who think the ppc is worthwhile. it would look as though the decision was made basically the day after brian rosenwald was forced into retirement


----------



## Nathanael

yarrow said:


> he also said ppc attendants were told the ppcs would be gone as of this week but someone in amtrak must have complained and our attendant said the current memo is the compromise


Bleah; it's depressing that that was actually proposed. The PPCs act as overflow lounges and overflow diners; the lounges and diners on several of the western trains routinely overcrowd. If you think about them that way, you'd never consider getting rid of them and you'd want to add more on the Empire Builder, like the proposal in the fleet strategy plan suggested.

I hope someone can educate the new manager of long-distance services about how to provide an attractive (but still efficient) product when your trains are overcrowded and you can't stop them from running late. It requires careful attention, not mindless Mica-style cutting. And with the current high demand, it requires *extra rolling stock*. Several trains would actually benefit from a table car to extend the reach of the diner.


----------



## Nathanael

Someone needs to pull Mark Murphy, the new manager of long-distance services, aside and explain that:

(1) the sleepers are profitable on an avoided-costs basis (assuming the train's running already);

(2) the diners are *necessary* to get people to take long trips (in sleeper *or* coach); they are a loss leader and should be treated as such;

(3) lounge space is also necessary to get people to take long trips, and is an even cheaper loss leader;

(3) longer trains are more profitable than shorter trains, if you can fill them up;

(4) you have to provide service that *feels* nice to people. Cheap amenities can add substantially to the demand. Especially when the trains are slow and can't be run on time for various reasons outside your control.

And finally,

(5) There is a future for most, if not all, of the so-called long-distance services; there is real latent demand along routes such as NY-Chicago, there is real expansion potential for additional frequencies, and the "long-distance" trains should not be treated as a dead end operation.

Murphy has what looks like an extremely inappropriate career background for his new job; a background which is not customer-focused at all. From Amtrak's press release:



> Murphy joined Amtrak in 1976. Most recently, he served as deputy chief mechanical officer of terminal operations in Wilmington, Del. His railroad career has included such positions as terminal superintendent-Washington division; assistant VP of service operations; superintendent of equipment standards and compliance; and master mechanic-Central Division.


It might make sense to assign him to oversee and straighten out 14th St. yard, or New Orleans yard operations -- and for all I know, maybe that's why he's in this job, in order to get the long-distance trains to leave on time from their starting points.
But it doesn't seem like he has any experience in direct customer-facing service at all, which is a serious weakness for the manager of the long-distance trains, with high ticket prices, people in the trains for days at a time, and lots of competition; a situation where service quality and marketing choices are very important. Murphy could turn out great, of course -- resume on paper often gives no clue as to someone's talents in a field -- but it just isn't a resume which makes him sound like he knows how to sell seats (or beds).


----------



## D.P. Roberts

yarrow said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> he also said ppc attendants were told the ppcs would be gone as of this week but someone in amtrak must have complained and our attendant said the current memo is the compromise
> 
> 
> 
> Say it ain't so Joe!  We know these Jewels cant last forever but anyone who has a ride on the CS for the PPC on their Bucket List should Book it soon as Possible! Once they're Gone, it's History like so many Grand Old Rail Favorites!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> according to our ppc attendant the current cuts are the compromise between, evidently, boardman and his ilk and those, in amtrak, who think the ppc is worthwhile. it would look as though the decision was made basically the day after brian rosenwald was forced into retirement
Click to expand...

I'm wondering how true these rumors really are. Trainorders had an actual copy of the memo, weeks or months before the amenity cuts were to take place. How could they have gotten rid of the PPC cars last month without anybody even hearing a rumor about it?

I know several people on this forum are upset about the loss of the amenities, and I'm not really one of them. However, even I admit that the PPC car (even though I don't care for it) is an amenity that a LOT of people care about. I really can't see Amtrak cutting it without giving at least little notice.

On the other hand, maybe it's like ripping off a band-aid - they know they'd face a firestorm of criticism if they eliminated the PPCs, so they cut them before people can get in a tizzy about it?


----------



## CHamilton

I am one of the people who is upset about losing amenities. I won't repeat what I have said elsewhere, but let me add a point. Amtrak is doing nothing for the western states right now, and if the few little advantages we have go away, so will the support of some pretty important Senators. I don't think Amtrak can afford that.


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## Devil's Advocate

D.P. Roberts said:


> I'm wondering how true these rumors really are. Trainorders had an actual copy of the memo, weeks or months before the amenity cuts were to take place. How could they have gotten rid of the PPC cars last month without anybody even hearing a rumor about it?


Logically it would appear to add up. We already know the PPC's will be going away at some point and that their maintenance is only getting more expensive. Mica seems to blast anything that provides luxury or comfort to rail passengers. Boardman has been coming back to the fold and appears ready to play by Mica's rules. Already we're seeing a focus on removing items that might make one route look fancier than another route. I'm hard pressed to think of a better way for Boardman to kiss Mica's ring than to trash the last remaining example of unique rolling stock on a route that is limited to progressive states. Mica's endless attacks appear to have Boardman scared enough to begin making cuts and there's no reason to assume all of those changes will be minor.


----------



## afigg

Devil's Advocate said:


> Logically it would appear to add up. We already know the PPC's will be going away at some point and that their maintenance is only getting more expensive. Mica seems to blast anything that provides luxury or comfort to rail passengers. Boardman has been coming back to the fold and appears ready to play by Mica's rules. Already we're seeing a focus on removing items that might make one route look fancier than another route. I'm hard pressed to think of a better way for Boardman to kiss Mica's ring than to trash the last remaining example of unique rolling stock on a route that is limited to progressive states. Mica's endless attacks appear to have Boardman scared enough to begin making cuts and there's no reason to assume all of those changes will be minor.


I think there is too much focus on Congressman Mica here. Mica is no longer Chairman of the House Transportation committee. Shuster is. Mica is still a factor, but he is not the only one. The issues that Boardman and Amtrak management are facing is the pending Amtrak Re-authorization bill and the Transportation re-authorization bill. Dumping the "special" amenities are likely aimed at placating the House Republicans and the anti-Amtrak political crowd in general, not just Mica. By showing that Amtrak is cutting costs for the LD trains, even if it dampens sales in the long run, may be critical to getting an acceptable re-authorization bill that is not loaded with poison pills to the LD trains.
Boardman has been making an argument for a Transportation Trust Fund to replace the Highway Trust Fund. If a Transportation Trust Fund can be set up that provides stable annual funding of $1.5 to $2 billion a year to Amtrak, it would also go a long way to insulate Amtrak from the micro-management and silly restrictions stuck in the annual appropriations bills by Congress. There is a bigger game being played here by Boardman to make some short term sacrifices in order to preserve the LD trains and allow Amtrak to manage and improve the LD trains and system without Congressional provisions that could really hurt the LD trains. What happens, for example, if the next re-authorization bill requires that the states in 5 years pay the subsidies for the LD trains that run through their state? You think Ohio or SC would be likely to provide subsidy funding for their piece of the LD train routes?


----------



## D.P. Roberts

afigg said:


> You think Ohio or SC would be likely to provide subsidy funding for their piece of the LD train routes?


You make some good points. Perhaps some of these amenities might even return at a later date if Amtrak can secure a long-term budget. And as to your rhetorical question, I'm sure Ohio would pay good money to GET RID of Amtrak.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Mica has moved on to other committees but his position hasn't changed and those who have followed in his footsteps are happy to resume his fight. Mica also retains access to a bully pulpit in the press. As I understand it Shuster wants to privatize Amtrak just like Mica does, which has almost always been a precursor to the cessation of passenger rail services. Nonetheless I agree that instead of writing "Mica" I probably should have written "House GOP" to be more accurate. Boardman's assumption appears to mirror many of those on this forum. That if you just cut back Amtrak services a little then folks like Mica and Shuster will move along to some other target and allow the rest of Amtrak's services to remain unscathed. In my view that is a rather unlikely scenario. Amtrak's use as a political whipping boy is unlikely to be seriously diminished by the loss of sleeper perks or PPC's or even full service dining cars. On the other hand Amtrak's future appeal to premium passengers is likely to be curtailed substantially over time. As more and more perks and services are cut to meet greater and greater demands eventually Amtrak's growth may stagnate or even reverse course. Which would only make it that much easier and more appealing to attack.


----------



## Anderson

I'm also in the crowd that's not _terribly_ broken up about some of the cuts. The wine and cheese cuts strike me as an issue, yes, but with its OTP it was probably going to be a long time before I took the Builder again anyway. As Charlie can tell you, I was supremely underwhelmed by it, something that stands in _stark_ contrast to my impression of the _Starlight_. One of my fondest memories on Amtrak will probably always be drinking a glass of red wine, munching on the "No Woman" cheese (that's the name of the variety I loved the most), and heading up into Tehachapi Pass.

As to Mica, I think "Mica" is being used as shorthand for a number of Republicans who have been causing issues for Amtrak. I know he gets named a lot, but some of that comes down to not wanting to keep track of the other GOP Congressmen who've been on his side. After all, those hearings would have been far different for Amtrak if Mica had been the recipient of some shots from his side of the aisle while lambasting Boardman.


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> Dumping the "special" amenities are likely aimed at placating the House Republicans and the anti-Amtrak political crowd in general, not just Mica.


This is pointless.
I've been spending 30 years following national politics. Since roughly Gingrich (1992), the "anti-everything" wing of the Republican Party has become non-placatable. Give them an inch, they'll ask for a mile. Suggest a reasonable compromise, they ask for your head on a platter. There is no *point* in trying to placate them, because it does not *work*.

What you do is to assemble a coalition of the "other guys": the "pork barrel" or "local chamber of commerce" wing of the party (who generally just want more train service to provide more tourism and shopping for their local businesses), the so-called "libertarians" (let the pets and the guns on board, reduce "security" theater), and the country club types (which means adding amenities, not reducing them).

Cutting the amenities appeals to only one crowd in Congress: the "communist populist" group who thinks that government should only provide single-class "we are all alike, comrade" services with identical grey Chinese uniforms. This may actually be a fairly large Congressional group, but most of them aren't Republicans (though some of them are). It is possible that these, mostly Democrats, are the people Boardman is actually playing to.

The privatizers are actually two different groups, but you can't work with either group. Some of them just want to kill Amtrak, because they irrationally hate railroads. Whatever; they're old and there won't be any of them left in a decade or two.

But some of the privatizers are actually worse: they're like the operators of Rocky Mountain Railtours -- they want to be the monopoly, they want their buddies to make the monopoly profits, and they can't stand the idea of the democratically elected government (meaning: all of us, the 99%, the general public) ever making a profit on anything, because they believe that all profit should flow to a small private elite. Watch out for these types. They're very dangerous. You can identify them because they specifically want to privatize only the *profitable* parts of Amtrak (for whose benefit? You know whose, theirs & their buddies). These people are trying to make themselves like noblemen, through rent-seeking and "lemon socialism" (privatize the profits, socialize the losses). I hate them; they are the source of almost all that is wrong with society.



> What happens, for example, if the next re-authorization bill requires that the states in 5 years pay the subsidies for the LD trains that run through their state? You think Ohio or SC would be likely to provide subsidy funding for their piece of the LD train routes?


Won't happen in the near future, for a number of political reasons. The western states which like their services and don't want to pay for them (North Dakota, Montana, New Mexico, etc.) form a bloc with the eastern states which like their services and don't want to lose them to idiot states in between (New York, Illinois, Florida, etc.), and that's a blocking majority in the Senate. The anti-Amtrak forces have mainly operated by straight budget cuts, which they successfully do because every Senator can assume that his line isn't going to be the one getting cut.
The situation would actually become more worrisome if Boardman could prove that the NY-Chicago and NY-Florida services are profitable (which they are, and they will become more so) because that would break the coalition and there could then be enough votes to cut the Western services.

I think it's important for Boardman to be able to say of amenities -- and indeed of sleeper service -- "This raises more revenue than it costs." The accounting needs to be done in such a way that it's clear to sane people (as opposed to ideological hacks with an ax to grind like Mica) that the amenities do not cost Congressional dollars (which they don't). This will just make the advocates of "lemon socialism" angrier, but I don't see any way to do anything with those guys anyway; it should attract the support of everyone *else* in Congress.


----------



## jis

There is an interesting long thread that has been running on railroad.net on the subject of sleepers, their revenues and their direct and indirect costs, as an incidental subject, discussed in excruciating detail and unfortunately not unequivocally positive for sleeper service. Indeed one of the most vocal participants is a proponent of just worrying more about Coach trains, and he does make a very cogent case for it too. Thought some of you might want to at least be aware of that line of argument, since in this board we seem to mostly have arguments about minutia on this subject rather than some of the basic premises.

Anyway here you go: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=136456

BTW, after you eliminate the "lemon socialism" and "lemon capitalism" crowd in Congress do you really have enough votes to actually pass anything that we would favor? I thought that the reason we are in such a mess is because inevitably the votes of some of the less virulent "lemon X" are needed to get anything through.

BTW, Boardman has already presented one slideset with a bar graph that Nathaniel had posted somewhere which clearly shows that if the 6 LD trains that lose most money above rails and after removing all shared costs were eliminated that would leave only the east of Chicago LD system standing. Everything west of Chicago will be gone.


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## Paulus

jis said:


> BTW, Boardman has already presented one slideset with a bar graph that Nathaniel had posted somewhere which clearly shows that if the 6 LD trains that lose most money above rails and after removing all shared costs were eliminated that would leave only the east of Chicago LD system standing. Everything west of Chicago will be gone.


Should be kept in mind of course that the Eastern trains are the ones which have the opportunity for shared costs; if you get rid of those, by necessity the Western trains will look worse, since only CONO and the Starlight share anything other than termini with other trains and that's not all that much for CONO (Starlight is somewhat more significant).

That said, it is rather amusing given how many rail advocate statements I've run across in the past which claimed it was the Western LDTs which ran at a profit...


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## TVRM610

As much as I like traveling in a sleeper... I DO think that Amtrak should expand the Palmetto to Florida as an overnight Coach train and then we can really see how the $$$ looks for an all coach, 1 cafe car overnight train.

I'm not saying Amtrak should get rid of sleepers and diners... but the idea that every overnight train needs a diner and sleepers is simply not realistic. There can be coach trains, and sleeper trains and perhaps that could save some routes, or even open up the option of new routes!


----------



## jis

Paulus said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, Boardman has already presented one slideset with a bar graph that Nathaniel had posted somewhere which clearly shows that if the 6 LD trains that lose most money above rails and after removing all shared costs were eliminated that would leave only the east of Chicago LD system standing. Everything west of Chicago will be gone.
> 
> 
> 
> Should be kept in mind of course that the Eastern trains are the ones which have the opportunity for shared costs; if you get rid of those, by necessity the Western trains will look worse, since only CONO and the Starlight share anything other than termini with other trains and that's not all that much for CONO (Starlight is somewhat more significant).
> 
> That said, it is rather amusing given how many rail advocate statements I've run across in the past which claimed it was the Western LDTs which ran at a profit...
Click to expand...

Not very surprisingly there is a direct correlation between the overall distance run by a train and the depth of the financial hole it is in. Because in general labor cost together with other directly attributable costs, is marginally to significantly higher than the revenue stream generated by most LD trains, and the cost of labor is proportional to the time spent by said labor on the train.


----------



## Paulus

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, Boardman has already presented one slideset with a bar graph that Nathaniel had posted somewhere which clearly shows that if the 6 LD trains that lose most money above rails and after removing all shared costs were eliminated that would leave only the east of Chicago LD system standing. Everything west of Chicago will be gone.
> 
> 
> 
> Should be kept in mind of course that the Eastern trains are the ones which have the opportunity for shared costs; if you get rid of those, by necessity the Western trains will look worse, since only CONO and the Starlight share anything other than termini with other trains and that's not all that much for CONO (Starlight is somewhat more significant).
> 
> That said, it is rather amusing given how many rail advocate statements I've run across in the past which claimed it was the Western LDTs which ran at a profit...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not very surprisingly there is a direct correlation between the overall distance run by a train and the depth of the financial hole it is in. Because in general labor cost together with other directly attributable costs, is marginally to significantly higher than the revenue stream generated by most LD trains, and the cost of labor is proportional to the time spent by said labor on the train.
Click to expand...

Oh certainly. But the difference is exacerbated, and the Eastern LDTs artificially made to look better than they really are, when you remove shared costs since a significantly higher percentage of costs is shared by Eastern trains than they are for the Western trains. That said, all other things being equal, the Western trains would still perform worse since there are such great swatches of nothing and hardly anybody even when there is anything on their routes.


----------



## jis

I know. But the differences brought about by cost sharing are relatively small compared to the overwhelming cost of labor on the train. That is also what differentiates the non-Diner cafe only trains from those with Diners - one of the primary basis of the Coach only train argument in the link that I included above. Afterall, if one takes the position that all sleeper trains must have Diners, then one cannot run around and justify Sleeper profitability conveniently ignoring Diner costs. If one wishes to charge a much higher fare justified by inclusion of food service, then one has to include that on the cost side too in the analysis.

The few private operations that manage to stay somewhat afloat are primarily differentiated in terms of cost of on board labor. There is no getting away from that fundamental issue. That is the reason I wait with baited breath to see how Mr. Boardman plans to wipe out the F&B losses in five years, or if he is merely hoping that he will be happily retired before then. Hopefully he would not have caused irrevocable damage before walking into the sunset unlike one of his predecessors who left Amtrak in pretty much in shambles, which took 2+ CEOs to recover from.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I think seeing Kay Baily Hutchison replaced with Ted Cruz potentially says a lot more about Amtrak's future than any given accounting practice. I'm not sure any amount of financial maneuvering would placate a hardliner like Cruz. As more and more obstructionists are elected to govern us the days of compromise that kept Amtrak afloat despite growing contempt may come to an end. In many ways they already have. Common ground would seem to be a quaint concept in an era of perpetual dysfunction. On the other hand Amtrak has already outlived my best gueses by several years, thanks in part to indirect factors such as 9-11, petrol prices, smoking restrictions, growing obesity, TSA's nude-o-scans, etc.


----------



## Nathanael

jis said:


> There is an interesting long thread that has been running on railroad.net on the subject of sleepers, their revenues and their direct and indirect costs, as an incidental subject, discussed in excruciating detail and unfortunately not unequivocally positive for sleeper service. Indeed one of the most vocal participants is a proponent of just worrying more about Coach trains, and he does make a very cogent case for it too. Thought some of you might want to at least be aware of that line of argument, since in this board we seem to mostly have arguments about minutia on this subject rather than some of the basic premises.
> 
> Anyway here you go: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=136456


I've read it, and I think the fellow who believes sleeper service is less profitable than coach is cooking the numbers to get his preferred result -- all our available numbers are a bit unclear, but that fellow is biasing every one of them to make sleepers look bad and to make coaches look good, including bizarre claims that sleepers cost more to maintain than coaches (in reality, they cost less to maintain because they don't get used by so many people). He's been completely unable to justify the claim that replacing a sleeper with a coach on the same route will collect the same revenue in general (though I would believe it on certain routes with exceptionally poor "through" demand and exceptionally strong "local" demand).

The differential results of different segments of trains makes it really easy to come up with misleading averages, which is a trap everyone seems to fall into.

It's pretty clear that if you take

(a) a good-enough-to-get-lots-of-customers train route (so, not Atlanta-New Orleans),

(b) which is already running coaches and a diner,

© and which has demand for overnight service,

you can improve the bottom line by adding sleepers.

Yes, that's a rather specific claim I'm making.

Even the fellow who's making the full-on attack against sleepers surrendered and admitted that sleepers are probably profitable on the LSL. Contrary to his claims, they're profitable on the Silver Service too, where Florida-NY traffic is large and isn't going to ride coach.

There are problem segments, where the train simply isn't competitive with driving (Atlanta-New Orleans, Grand Junction-Reno). Here, adding any car may lose you money, sleeper or coach. As far as I am concerned something should be done about these segments; limping along is not a good option. I will discuss these problem segments below, since this has turned into a full-blown essay.

The situation with the dining cars adds great confusion to most people's calculations. The dining cars are simply a loss leader; you need them for people who are riding too long, because the alternative is "get out at Albany for a meal break", and that suppresses ticket revenue by a large (though very hard to calculate) amount. I assert that the dining cars are necessary even without sleeping cars -- if the trip runs across two mealtimes, the cafe car can't even stock enough food for everyone, and people start wanting a sit-down meal -- so I assume the existence of the dining car when figuring whether sleepers are profitable.

It's very hard to figure out how much the dining cars *should* be costing right now because they are currently antique cars (in the East) operated with archaic paperwork-heavy practices (nationwide). But I will say that dining cars are probably costing a lot more than they should.

After Point of Sale is implemented in the dining cars, and the Heritage cars are replaced, it may be possible to get a better picture of the "true" dining car cost structure going forward, and maybe Boardman is right and they can be profitable. I could certainly imagine that if they were open most of the day and right up to the end of the trip, rather than closing for inventory periodically, it would make a big difference.

In some sense sleepers and diners are a sideshow. Amtrak *should* have them on routes of appropriate runtime length, as they will improve revenue by more than costs and the bottom line.

But the fundamental issue is, is the route operation any good to start with? Again, I will discuss this below, because it turned into an essay.

Sleepers, coaches, diners, all are mere details in comparison to the basics of running daily, on time, at a speed competitive with driving, between cities of meaningful population -- which increases the ridership and the prices Amtrak can charge by very large amounts. This *should be* possible on most (not all) of the so-called "long-distance" routes, but is not currently achieved on any of them.

An all-coach Lake Shore Limited with the current unreliability problems would just cost more money, and a "no-diner" Lake Shore Limited would just cost more money. The same applies to the Silver Service. The focus should be on eliminating the unreliability by one means or another.



> BTW, after you eliminate the "lemon socialism" and "lemon capitalism" crowd in Congress do you really have enough votes to actually pass anything that we would favor?


Quite a cynical viewpoint, and I'm rather cynical. I think the privatize-the-profits, socialize-the-losses people are actually a small minority in Congress (although there are a lot of such people attempting to *bribe* or *mislead* Congressmen).

The group you have to target for votes is the "pork barrel", "log rolling", "something for me, something for you", "The Erie Canal will be good for local business" people -- who are subtly different, and a very large group. The privatize-the-profits, socialize-the-losses people will be pushing dishonest propaganda at this group (watch for words like "boondoggle"), and the most reliable response when talking to the "pork barrel" types is "look at the boost for local business/tourism in your district, look at how many of the voters of your district use this".

Now, it can be hard to sell amenities to a Congressman that way, so the point should be that they actually improve the bottom line by increasing revenue and ridership. (If a particular amenity doesn't, well, I can't really support that amenity either.)



> BTW, Boardman has already presented one slideset with a bar graph that Nathaniel had posted somewhere which clearly shows that if the 6 LD trains that lose most money above rails and after removing all shared costs were eliminated that would leave only the east of Chicago LD system standing. Everything west of Chicago will be gone.


Here starts the essay.
There are several types of problem segments.

- The first is the segment with low population where all forms of transportation are marginal -- such as the High Line in Montana and North Dakota. This is actually the least problematic, as the train will get a large percentage of the traffic.

- The second is the segment with low population where the roads are significantly faster, and it would cost a completely unreasonable amount to speed the railway up -- such as Denver to Salt Lake via the mountains, or Salt Lake to Reno. Those mountain/desert/prairie crossings with low populations and good roads are mostly like this.

- The third is the segment where the roads are significantly faster than the railway even if the railway is running on time and well-maintained, but the population is large enough that it would be *worth* speeding the railway up -- such as New Orleans to Atlanta. In these cases it has been very hard to find the funds, but the funds *ought* to be found.

- The fourth is the segment where the railway, even on its existing route and right-of-way, ought to be about as fast as the roads, but deferred maintenance, abusive dispatching by the Class Is, failure of the 14th St. yard to do its job, etc. etc. has prevented it from running on time. This is true, to some extent, of most Amtrak routes on freight tracks. These are the most *anger-inducing* segments for me, because these perfectly-good routes are basically being sabotaged.

The Texas Eagle is actually a dramatic example of problem segment type 4. There's plenty of on-line population. There's nothing wrong with the route of the tracks: it's only a little twistier than the parallel Interstate. However, it is much slower on every single segment. I know why from Ft. Worth to Dallas, from Alton to St. Louis, and from Joliet to Chicago, and in all three cases it's just stupid stuff which could be fixed pretty easily if anyone cared. I don't know why in the other segments (this route is too slow on nearly every segment), but I'm guessing it's more of the same "easy to fix but nobody bothers".

- The fifth is three-a-week service. This is guaranteed to perform poorly, and is exceptionally poor at providing network connectivity. It's not even worth considering other problems with the Sunset Limited or Cardinal until the three-a-week problem is fixed. These do, however, provide some network connectivity, as the ridership in the through cars on the Texas Eagle shows.

Due to the fourth phenomenon, all long-distance routes are performing worse than they should -- and so are most of the state sponsored routes. But let us discuss the first three sorts of "problem segments".

At current speeds, Indianapolis-Chicago and Atlanta-New Orleans are problem segments of type 3 -- the routes are simply too slow to be competitive, but funding for a better route *could* make them competitive. Denver-Salt Lake City through the mountains is a problem segment of type 2. Albuquerque to Topeka via Raton Pass and the middle of nowhere is also a problem segment of type 2.

Now, here's the thing: you can't just delete the problem segments -- of any of the types -- because if you do, you lose network connectivity and ridership drops across the board (this was the greatest error in the Carter cuts). You have to figure out how to improve them or provide better substitutes for them. Railroads are all about network effects and economies of scale.

The problem of finding funding for problem segments which provide important network connectivity has been the most difficult problem in the history of Amtrak. A few have gotten funded: in terms of those which connect to trains on both ends, New York to Boston (which was definitely a problem segment of type 3 when Amtrak started), St. Louis to Kansas City, and Charlotte-Raleigh. Also a number of state-sponsored "branch lines" which connect only at one end. But most have not gotten funded.

Each problem segment needs its own custom solution. This is partly what the Performance Improvement Plans were for, but they couldn't recommend major capital improvements, which is the solution for several of the problem segments of types 3, and they can do very little about the sabotage which creates problem segments of type 4, for which the only reliable solution has been to buy the tracks. They *did* recommend daily service for all trains, addressing type 5 problems, but we still haven't got it!

The problem segments of type 1-3 have repeatedly been tacked onto other segments. Which makes sense as these segments can't stand on their own; and in some ways, this avoids making them targets. But it has a bad side effect: it makes the other (better) segments into targets. The bad segments are used, through misleading and selective averaging, to make routes with high potential look bad.

VIA, which is trying to kill the Ocean, pulled this trick by pointing to the low ridership from Halifax and ignoring the high ridership from Moncton. (Then they made it three-a-week in a further attempt to kill it.)

For a US example:

I am quite certain that a standalone Denver Zephyr would look pretty good financially (18 hour train, 15 hour drive, quite competitive) -- but the result would be that it would become obvious how much money it cost to run the California-Denver train. But cutting the California-Denver train would lose connecting service from the ski areas to the East and from Reno to the west, reducing ridership systemwide.

If you somehow managed to keep ski areas-Denver and Reno-Oakland funded as separate corridor trains (which has been made harder by PRIIA, but not impossible), you'd still be losing the connecting revenue from the people taking really long trips, and you'd have to add extra expenses to run a Denver maintenance shop (and to find train parking at Reno, and at the ski areas), and you'd lose the votes from Utah. (If there are any pro-Amtrak votes from Utah.)

Salt Lake - Reno is a problem segment of type 2, but useful for connectivity. With its low population and the amount of time it takes it should be run overnight. Unfortunately, Salt Lake - Denver via Wyoming is a problem segment of type 2 or 3, which you would also want to run overnight at its current speeds -- while Salt Lake - Denver via the Moffat Tunnel Route is a problem segment of type 2. I guess Amtrak selected the current scheme as the best of a bad lot of options.

Running more trains per day along any of these routes would allow for better scheduling for each of the separate markets, and could multiply revenues by more than costs as the increased frequencies make the train fit into more people's schedules. In some cases (problem segments of types 1 and 2) there is likely not enough demand. But in cases of type 3 (and 4 and 5!) there is enough potential demand, and more trains per day would make the capital costs (which are necessary to improve the "problem segments") more justifiable.

Amenities simply must be provided at the level which keeps people buying high-priced tickets. Sleepers are simply something you run on overnight trips. Diners are something you run on trips which run across multiple mealtimes. Cafes are something you run on trips which run more than about, say, 2 hours. Lounges are something you run on trips which are long enough for people to get antsy, maybe more than about 6 hours. If you don't run any of these on the appropriate type of trip, you bleed customers and people pay much less for tickets. As long as you're running any of them, tart them up and make them look nice -- it costs very little and improves word of mouth reports a lot.

But the real issue is the routes and schedules themselves, and critically, the on-time performance.

There is a strong case to be made that rail service over very long (in terms of hours) routes is not really viable, coach or sleeper. Obviously, you can have overlapping corridors, making a route much longer than the typical trip taken on it, but at some point the cascading delays and odd calling hours start deteriorating the value of the train for any of the sub-corridors.

Consider, as a thought experiment, this alternative to the California Zephyr: a train running on the same schedule from Chicago to Denver, and a train running on the same schedule from Denver to Oakland, with a "guaranteed" connection at Denver.... but where both trains left on time and people on misconnecting trains were accomodated in the hotel at Denver Union Station. This way, delays coming from San Francisco would not impact the passengers going from Denver to Chicago, only the passengers coming from west of Denver. About half the passengers on each train wouldn't even notice the difference, according to the PIP (half the train turns over in Denver).

(This was a lot easier and cheaper to do when railroads owned their own hotels at the stations. Frankly, Amtrak should lease out the upper floors of Chicago Union Station to a hotel with an agreement that the hotel will house displaced Amtrak passengers for a flat rate.)

The other half of the passengers on the CZ would notice the change of trains at Denver. Those who are travelling from east-of-Denver to the ski areas probably wouldn't be too bothered by the change of train (though more bothered by an overnight delay). This implies setting up a separate Ski Train on a schedule which can pick up most misconnections.

The through traffic apart from "ski traffic" is fairly small, and biases towards the sleepers for obvious reasons. These people are travelling long distances slowly, and are going to be less bothered by the delay and more bothered by changing rooms. So if you want to accomodate that, you run a through sleeper, and if the train misconnects, they stay in their rooms and it gets attached to the next day's train. (Requires some spare sleepers, obviously, and even spare OBS staff.)

This is beginning to sound like a very traditional operation, isn't it? Coach trains on relatively short routes with reliable schedules, with a few sleepers being transferred from one coach train to the next making some extra money. There's a reason some of these practices developed.

The dismemberment of the railway system in the US prior to Amtrak and during the early days of Amtrak has made a lot of this stuff seem very hard to do, due to the very low number of trains per day running and the extreme difficulty of restarting a simple local route. These facts are obscuring the true nature of "added amenity" service.

The problem with the long-distance trains is not the amenities (which actually improve their performance), it's the delays, the uncompetitive schedules, the low frequencies, and the routings through low-population areas.

In technical (as opposed to political) terms, the easiest route to prove my thesis with is the Lake Shore Limited -- fix up both ends of the route, run it on time, keep adding cars and frequencies, and you'll see; the amenities are profitable, it's the the underlying schedule and timekeeping problems which were unprofitable. Other routes which could be used to prove this would be a restored Broadway Limited (with the west end fixed up), a Denver Zephyr at 90 mph through the major cities of Iowa, or the Silver Meteor rerouted onto a restored 110 mph S line between Raleigh and Richmond and running on time in Florida. Which route is politically easiest to prove this with is a matter of the current prevailing winds. 

Or if you want to prove my thesis the bad way, extend the Palmetto to Florida without sleepers or diners and watch it perform worse than the Silver Meteor. But I don't suggest it.

I wish there were Congressional hearings on Amtrak's lack of on-time performance. That would actually have been *useful*.


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## Nathanael

jis said:


> I know. But the differences brought about by cost sharing are relatively small compared to the overwhelming cost of labor on the train. That is also what differentiates the non-Diner cafe only trains from those with Diners - one of the primary basis of the Coach only train argument in the link that I included above. Afterall, if one takes the position that all sleeper trains must have Diners, then one cannot run around and justify Sleeper profitability conveniently ignoring Diner costs.


I actually take the position that all trains running across three mealtimes should have diners, whether they have sleepers or not. (After doing a little research I corrected this from two mealtimes; a well-operated cafe seems to be able to handle two mealtimes. Amtrak's cafes, unfortunately, have poor breakfast selection.)

So I can ignore diner costs when looking at sleepers.  However, my form of analysis does make some entire train routes quite questionable. If they shouldn't be operated without diners, and they perform terribly with diners, it's possible that they shouldn't be operated at all.

I would make an exception to my diner rule if you simply don't care about the traffic which runs across three mealtimes. Do people really take the Palmetto from Savannah to New York? I wouldn't think you could get many people to pay much for the tickets. Or is it used almost entirely for shorter trips? I would suspect that it is.

Meanwhile, all trains running more-than-overnight should have sleepers, whether or not they have diners. There's nothing wrong with having a sleeper (but no diner) on a train like 66/67.

And honestly, if the cafe had decent breakfast food (which it does not) and ran between Albany and NY (which it does not) the LSL, a relatively short run, could probably get by with a cafe. It would probably need a second table car and a larger pantry. The Capitol Limited could also probably get by with a cafe (again, if the cafe had decent breakfast food, which it does not).

I hadn't really thought seriously about the breakfast issue before, so thanks for inspiring me to dig into that a bit deeper. The cafes *don't* have decent breakfast food, and they should. Cereal & milk are relatively easy, as would "continental" pastry items, juice, and yogurt.

Eggs and sausage would be a bit tougher, though, let alone French toast. I think there's real value in having a cook and a grill. But I do wonder whether "takeout style"/"self serve"/"no waiters" service could be efficiently implemented; I suspect most people are used enough to this in "on land" restaurants that they wouldn't be particularly disturbed by it.

But a "fast food style" grill might be an inefficient use of space. Probably you'd have lines of people clogging up the hallway, like happens in the single-level cafe cars already, and nobody would be willing to sit with strangers unless pushed to, so then you have to add extra table cars...



> The few private operations that manage to stay somewhat afloat are primarily differentiated in terms of cost of on board labor. There is no getting away from that fundamental issue. That is the reason I wait with baited breath to see how Mr. Boardman plans to wipe out the F&B losses in five years, or if he is merely hoping that he will be happily retired before then.


Well, my guess is that he's hoping for a large boost from "point of sale" eliminating a lot of the crew paperwork -- and he's planning to make the crew replace the time doing paperwork with time *actually serving customers food*. That would deploy the same number of labor hours to serve a lot more food, which should have very salutary effects on the diner performance.



> Hopefully he would not have caused irrevocable damage before walking into the sunset unlike one of his predecessors who left Amtrak in pretty much in shambles, which took 2+ CEOs to recover from.


I certainly hope so too. Though I can't actually tell for sure which predecessor you're thinking of!
Many people blame Warrington, but he actually kept the company going under very adverse circumstances.

Roger Lewis is the one who told Congress that he wouldn't know what to do with a billion dollars (possibly the worst thing any Amtrak CEO has ever said to Congress)!

Thomas Downs implemented the "three a week everywhere" plan in 1997 which took many years to recover from -- after a previous career mismanaging the DC Union Station project. I'm going to guess that that's who you're thinking of.


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## Nathanael

TL;DR version:

You have to provide suitable levels of amenities for the length (in hours) of trip you are selling.

The problem lies not in the amenities, but in trying to sell long slow trips, slower than driving, with poor on-time performance, and few frequencies so that they are inconvenient to people's schedules, through low-population areas.

However, you can't just cut the "problem segments" of routes, because you break network connectivity, and network connectivity adds a large boost in ridership to everything.

So you have to focus on how to make the existing routes *operate* better, whether this means replacing the management at Chicago 14th St. yard, suing Union Pacific, filing complaints against CN, rerouting the SW Chief through Amarillo, lobbying Iowa to build the cross-Iowa corridor line so you can switch the CZ to it, getting Englewood Flyover built, building "South of the Lake", etc. etc. -- nothing to do with amenities.

The actual net avoidable costs of most of the LD routes are comparable to the net avoidable costs of state-subidized corridor routes.... when those routes run slowly and unreliably. The worst cases of the LD routes run particularly slowly and particularly unreliably through particularly empty areas, and so do the Hoosier State and (to a lesser extent) the Heartland Flyer.

The LD routes are not especially expensive compared to comparably poorly-routed, poorly-scheduled, delay-prone corridor routes. It is their routes and schedules and OTP which make them especially expensive.


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## afigg

jis said:


> The few private operations that manage to stay somewhat afloat are primarily differentiated in terms of cost of on board labor. There is no getting away from that fundamental issue. That is the reason I wait with baited breath to see how Mr. Boardman plans to wipe out the F&B losses in five years, or if he is merely hoping that he will be happily retired before then. Hopefully he would not have caused irrevocable damage before walking into the sunset unlike one of his predecessors who left Amtrak in pretty much in shambles, which took 2+ CEOs to recover from.


I figure the reason that Boardman went with 5 years as the goal in which to eliminate F&B losses is three-fold: 1) puts it off until well into the next Amtrak re-authorization cycle (if a new re-authorization is passed this year), 2) it sounds like a plausible length of time to implement and try out reforms and 3) Yes, he will be retired and maybe Mica (age 71) will have retired by then as well to cash in with the DC consulting firms. (I use Mica in this case because he is clearly the one leading the attacks on Amtrak for F&B losses).

The Amtrak OIG report make it clear that it will be difficult to totally eliminate F&B losses for the LD trains so long as diner cars are retained due to the personnel costs. However, if the efforts to implement ePOS system, tighter inventory management, monitor crews more closely, and so on manage to cut the total F&B losses by half, it makes those losses a smaller political target. If in 5 years, system-wide F&B losses are $35 million a year as part of >$2.5 billion revenue picture, becomes less worthwhile for Congress critters to take shots at.

As for leaving Amtrak in shambles, Boardman has been quite successful in improving Amtrak's financial health and increasing revenue & ridership. despite a hostile environment in some circles the past 3+ years.


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## jis

afigg said:


> As for leaving Amtrak in shambles, Boardman has been quite successful in improving Amtrak's financial health and increasing revenue & ridership. despite a hostile environment in some circles the past 3+ years.


Yeah. I actually happen to think that Boardman has been one of the unquestionably better stewards of Amtrak. However he does have many detractors. One never knows what is the breaking point of a guy under tremendous pressure. So far he has held pretty steady on the course of slowly building a very viable corridors business while keeping the LD business in a relatively stable state. I know many do not like his basic position that it is upto Congress to decide whether they want a growing LD business or not. but that pretty much is his prerogative to define and follow a course given his position. At least he is consistent and not erratic, though many may not agree with his overall strategy.
Bottom line is personally, I am quite confident that he will not leave Amtrak in financial shambles like Warrington did (sorry nathaniel, we will just have to agree to disagree on Warrington  ).


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## afigg

Nathanael said:


> I would make an exception to my diner rule if you simply don't care about the traffic which runs across three mealtimes. Do people really take the Palmetto from Savannah to New York? I wouldn't think you could get many people to pay much for the tickets. Or is it used almost entirely for shorter trips? I would suspect that it is.


The top city pairs for the Palmetto are long trips. In the PIP report on the Palmetto, the top station pairs by ridership in FY10 were Charleston-NYP, Fayetteville-NYP, Florence-NYP, CHS-WAS in that order. The top 4 ridership pairs in 2013 according to the NARP ridership stats for the Palmetto are similar, but with FLO-NYP as #1 with CHS-NYP as #2. Presumably just year to year variations as CHS was the busiest Palmetto stop south of the NEC with 42.3K passengers in 2013. The NYP stats are quite good given the 6:15 AM departure time from NYP.

The Palmetto is possibly a good example of the ridership patterns that might be more common if there were more day trains that had competitive trip times to driving over the longer distances. More 400, 500, 600 mile trips on the train.

BTW, if you are going to write essays that long, you really should just go ahead and become a member. Provide a fake birth date, no one will know.


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## andersone

Nathanel's tome is truly insightful.

As for Chairman Boardman choosing five years, Comrade Lenin would be proud !


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## TVRM610

Why would the Palmetto perform worse than the Metoer if it was extended to Florida? I think the Palmetto would continue to perform Better financially than the Metoer even as an all coach single food service car train.


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## Eric S

Nathanael, still digesting all that you wrote, but I greatly appreciate the thought and effort you put into that.


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## Green Maned Lion

*blinks* sometimes you people remind me why the rail operators don't like advocates.


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## D.P. Roberts

When it comes to funding Amtrak, I look at it this way.

Amtrak needs approximately $1.4 billion dollars in subsidies per year.

The population of the US is roughly 350 million people.

So, it costs the people of the US roughly $4 per person per year to have a functioning rail system.

$4 a year isn't much. A Venti coffee can cost more than that.

But of course, you may argue that not everyone pays taxes, and not everyone rides Amtrak. Those statements are both true. Approximately half (122 million) of all Americans pay federal taxes, and roughly 31 million people ride Amtrak each year.

So, let's say roughly half of those 31 million Amtrak passengers are taxpayers. That means 15 million people are supporting a $1.4 billion train system. That works out to $100 per Amtrak-riding taxpayer, per year.

The average taxpayer (middle class making $46,000 per year) pays about $6400 in taxes. I say we pose this question to those Amtrak-riding, tax-paying passengers: "Less than 1.6% of your current tax bill goes towards supporting Amtrak, with the remaining 98.4% going towards other federally funded programs such as defense spending, Medicare, Social Security, etc. Considering how much of your tax money is going towards programs that don't benefit you or your family, are you okay with that measly 1.6% that's going to Amtrak, a service that you personally use?"

I think most Amtrak passengers would probably say yes.

So, despite the ravings of certain members of Congress, I would bet that Amtrak could actually support itself from taxpaying citizens who are using its service. I doubt that many other federal programs could say the same thing.


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## neroden

afigg said:


> BTW, if you are going to write essays that long, you really should just go ahead and become a member. Provide a fake birth date, no one will know.


Well, I did. (Different username because I'm used to using this username to log in.)



afigg said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would make an exception to my diner rule if you simply don't care about the traffic which runs across three mealtimes. Do people really take the Palmetto from Savannah to New York? I wouldn't think you could get many people to pay much for the tickets. Or is it used almost entirely for shorter trips? I would suspect that it is.
> 
> 
> 
> The top city pairs for the Palmetto are long trips. In the PIP report on the Palmetto, the top station pairs by ridership in FY10 were Charleston-NYP, Fayetteville-NYP, Florence-NYP, CHS-WAS in that order. The top 4 ridership pairs in 2013 according to the NARP ridership stats for the Palmetto are similar, but with FLO-NYP as #1 with CHS-NYP as #2. Presumably just year to year variations as CHS was the busiest Palmetto stop south of the NEC with 42.3K passengers in 2013. The NYP stats are quite good given the 6:15 AM departure time from NYP.
Click to expand...

How interesting. Five of the top 9, however, are X - Washington DC with one being X - Richmond. Charleston-NYC is the longest in the top 9 list. This stays just barely under the two-meal range, which seems to support my theory that you need diners if you want to get people to ride across three meals. Savannah-NY is not in the top 9 on the ridership list though it makes the revenue list.

It does seem that NYC is the 800-pound gorilla for US intercity train travel; more people will ride further in coach from NYC than from other places. Not totally clear on why, but it shows up in bus statistics too.



jis said:


> Yeah. I actually happen to think that Boardman has been one of the unquestionably better stewards of Amtrak. However he does have many detractors. One never knows what is the breaking point of a guy under tremendous pressure. So far he has held pretty steady on the course of slowly building a very viable corridors business while keeping the LD business in a relatively stable state. I know many do not like his basic position that it is upto Congress to decide whether they want a growing LD business or not. but that pretty much is his prerogative to define and follow a course given his position.


My only dispute with is that I consider the distinction between LD and corridor to be somewhat artificial and arbitrary. I think good corridors will be neglected if they're pigeonholed as "long distance". Grow the "corridor business" from Chicago to upstate NY or from Chicago to Denver, I'm happy with that, I don't care what you CALL it. Real distinctions in appropriate service are based on runtimes, and the needed improvement for every single route is to run the route faster with more frequencies.



> I am quite confident that he will not leave Amtrak in financial shambles like Warrington did (sorry nathaniel, we will just have to agree to disagree on Warrington  ).


Amtrak was in total financial shambles well before the end of the Downs administration, which was incredibly disastrous -- Amtrak actually nearly ran out of cash and required an actual bailout during the Downs administration, as Wikipedia notes.
In terms of ridership, Downs had the worst results, several years in a row, since the disastrous period of the Boyd administration, which had to deal with the Carter cuts, the Reagan cuts, and a massive drop in gas prices.

The change of several trains from daily to three-a-week was manifestly stupid.

Downs's was also the first of several successive administrations to flagrantly ignore the ADA mandates: a gift which has kept on hurting.

On paper at least, the Downs administration looks to have been truly awful for Amtrak.

I would call Warrington the first of several CEOs trying to recover from the disastrous Downs administration. I'm not sure why Warrington, who had to deal with the immediate fallout from the Downs administration, gets all the hate in the fan groups... maybe because the Viewliners arrived under Downs?

Both Warrington and Gunn and also Kummant made mistakes while flailing around trying to recover. Gunn's mistakes included axing routes and disposing of rolling stock, both very bad mistakes. Warrington's mistakes were... less permanent.


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## CHamilton

Welcome, Nathanael, er, neroden, as a member. I have found your comments to be very enlightening, and look forward to seeing more of them.


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## Trogdor

neroden said:


> Both Warrington and Gunn and also Kummant made mistakes while flailing around trying to recover. Gunn's mistakes included axing routes and disposing of rolling stock, both very bad mistakes. Warrington's mistakes were... less permanent.


Interesting idea. I can't think of what rolling stock Gunn disposed of, other than a bunch of useless boxcars. I'll agree that losing two Chicago-NEC frequencies did hurt.

Warrington, on the other hand, left Amtrak within weeks of insolvency while having mortgaged virtually everything Amtrak owned, and pissed away hundreds of millions of dollars on a freight initiative that did more harm than good.


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## neroden

Trogdor said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both Warrington and Gunn and also Kummant made mistakes while flailing around trying to recover. Gunn's mistakes included axing routes and disposing of rolling stock, both very bad mistakes. Warrington's mistakes were... less permanent.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting idea. I can't think of what rolling stock Gunn disposed of, other than a bunch of useless boxcars.
Click to expand...

Heritage cars mostly. I realize that they were, and are, obsolete but they still haven't been replaced.



> I'll agree that losing two Chicago-NEC frequencies did hurt.


We still need 'em back. Gunn not only dropped the frequencies, IIRC he promptly sold the equipment (or was that Kummant?), making it rather harder to reinstate the frequencies without a humungous lead time.



> Warrington, on the other hand, left Amtrak within weeks of insolvency while having mortgaged virtually everything Amtrak owned, and pissed away hundreds of millions of dollars on a freight initiative that did more harm than good.


The freight initiative was certainly a big mistake. It was an engineer's mistake, if you know what I mean -- it created political problems which then sabotaged it. There was nothing *technically* wrong with the idea... but it alienated the host railroads, who still have ludicrous amounts of power.

Within weeks of insolvency.... well, the thing is, Amtrak was illiquid at the end of the Downs administration, so in some sense Warrington left it where he found it!

Yeah, terrible business strategy, I know, but this sort of "mortgage everything until we can get some sort of rescue" is sometimes the only strategy left if you don't want to start auctioning the fixed assets. The political situation at the end of the Downs administration didn't seem to be offering much hope for actual funding, as opposed to loans -- Republican Congress already, remember, and in fact the *Gingrich* Congress, which was particularly fanatical and hostile to Amtrak, and Clinton was according to records already being unhelpful in 1994.

What I really don't understand is how Downs got into such a mess in such a very short period. I'm beginning to suspect that Claytor saw the mess coming and retired before it hit the fan.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1LUgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=amtrak+budget+1993&source=bl&ots=HgrMQj8S2Y&sig=n-Hg7ILl2V89K7k5a8fzaYE1gfk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=39ENU_qVL6b02wXi-YDADQ&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=amtrak%20budget%201993&f=false

The Amtrak debt load started accelerating in 1993 -- right around when Thomas Downs got there. And when he started proposing poorly-thought-out cuts. The debt load had doubled by 1997. Which was when the three-a-week mistake took place. Shortly after that was reversed, two routes were cut, and then... apparently Amtrak ran out of cash, and was bailed out by a friendly DOT secretary.

It seems like nothing Downs tried to do was realistic or well-thought-out -- apparently overly-optimistic budget requests were the order of the day. The accelerating debt was at least as much a Downs-era phenomenon as a Warrington-era one, and ridership was falling. Warrington was at least creative. I'm really not sure why Downs gets so little blame.


----------



## PRR 60

D.P. Roberts said:


> When it comes to funding Amtrak, I look at it this way.
> 
> Amtrak needs approximately $1.4 billion dollars in subsidies per year.
> 
> The population of the US is roughly 350 million people.
> 
> So, it costs the people of the US roughly $4 per person per year to have a functioning rail system.
> 
> $4 a year isn't much. A Venti coffee can cost more than that.
> 
> But of course, you may argue that not everyone pays taxes, and not everyone rides Amtrak. Those statements are both true. Approximately half (122 million) of all Americans pay federal taxes, and roughly 31 million people ride Amtrak each year.
> 
> So, let's say roughly half of those 31 million Amtrak passengers are taxpayers. That means 15 million people are supporting a $1.4 billion train system. That works out to $100 per Amtrak-riding taxpayer, per year.
> 
> The average taxpayer (middle class making $46,000 per year) pays about $6400 in taxes. I say we pose this question to those Amtrak-riding, tax-paying passengers: "Less than 1.6% of your current tax bill goes towards supporting Amtrak, with the remaining 98.4% going towards other federally funded programs such as defense spending, Medicare, Social Security, etc. Considering how much of your tax money is going towards programs that don't benefit you or your family, are you okay with that measly 1.6% that's going to Amtrak, a service that you personally use?"
> 
> I think most Amtrak passengers would probably say yes.
> 
> So, despite the ravings of certain members of Congress, I would bet that Amtrak could actually support itself from taxpaying citizens who are using its service. I doubt that many other federal programs could say the same thing.


There are not 31 million people riding Amtrak reach year. There are 31 million passenger boardings. Some people ride once a year, some ride 10 times, some commuters ride 400 times a year. My best guestimate: about 4 million people take one or more Amtrak rides each year.


----------



## VentureForth

TVRM610 said:


> Why would the Palmetto perform worse than the Metoer if it was extended to Florida? I think the Palmetto would continue to perform Better financially than the Metoer even as an all coach single food service car train.


In my humble opinion, the Palmetto needs to stop in Savannah. There would not really be enough time to turn the train around and keep the route to two trainsets if they took it all the way to JAX. A cascade of delays would be far worse than what the Autotrain faces today. As it is, it's just about a perfect ride (when things go well). It leaves NYP around 6:30 AM and arrives around 9 PM The other way, it's about 2 hours later. That, in and of itself is a bit weird. They only have 7 hours to do maintenance on the train in NYP where the facilities are vs nearly 12 in SAV where they don't have any heavy maintenance. I digress...

Even so, they are constantly running out of food in the Cafe on busy days as the attendant ONLY stocks in NYC for the trip down and back.

SAV should be an auxiliary service stop. Even though JAX is the big one, they should go ahead and pump the toilets, fill the water, and stock the commissary. An efficient operation could do this in the 5 minutes they dwell there for the Silvers and it would be a way to keep revenue up for the return trips on the Palmetto.


----------



## TVRM610

Venture...

I think the Palmetto should be extended all the way to Miami (aka Silver Palm restored). Passengers who want a dining car and sleepers can take the Metoer or Star... Passengers who want alternate times and just need a coach seat can take the Palm.


----------



## afigg

VentureForth said:


> In my humble opinion, the Palmetto needs to stop in Savannah. There would not really be enough time to turn the train around and keep the route to two trainsets if they took it all the way to JAX. A cascade of delays would be far worse than what the Autotrain faces today. As it is, it's just about a perfect ride (when things go well). It leaves NYP around 6:30 AM and arrives around 9 PM The other way, it's about 2 hours later. That, in and of itself is a bit weird. They only have 7 hours to do maintenance on the train in NYP where the facilities are vs nearly 12 in SAV where they don't have any heavy maintenance. I digress...


The northbound Palmetto arrives at WAS at 7:57 PM. If it departed SAV an hour earlier, it would reach WAS and the NEC during the latter stages of the peak traffic period where there are few, if any slots, available. The capacity limits and "rush" hours on the NEC constrain when the LD trains leave and arrive at NYP.

Yes, the current Palmetto schedule makes for efficient use of equipment with 2 trainsets while also leaving a margin for recovery if it runs several hours late. If the NEC trip times can get tightened up with the new 125 mph Viewliners and NEC capacity expansion projects, VA upgrades the WAS to Petersburg segment, and the HSIPR funded crossing upgrade project in VA and NC south of PTB gets done, then maybe the Palmetto could get extended to Jacksonville as a day train, although it would be pushing the limits of 2 trainsets.

But this is a thread about amenities on the LD trains. The Palmetto doesn't have any to eliminate except for the Amfleet II diner car which is hardly the lap of luxury.


----------



## jis

Palmetto is basically scheduled for 3:20 on the NEC, which is about the same as what a Regional takes with a few more stops. but then Palmetto has to do some baggage work at several of its stop. So I would be quite surprised if they are able to tighten the schedule mush with a Viewliner baggage car. Most of the schedule issue has to do with Palmetto (and other LD trains) getting lower priority than Acelas and Regionals, and that is unlikely to change on the NEC. This is reflected as more padding than what the Regionals get in the schedule, and they will continue to have that even after getting cleared for 125mph.

BTW, there has been a period in the past when the Palmetto did run to JAX and that went bye bye after schedule reliability on CSX hit rock bottom.

Extending the Palmetto to Miami will take considerable additional funds (and additional equipment), which is currently hard to come by. The big shortage is Coaches, even after we get additional Sleepers from the Viewliner order.


----------



## rrdude

Dear Mr. Pilcher:

Thank you for your letter of February 5, 2014, to Mr. Joseph H. Boardman. I am responding on behalf of the Corporation.

Amtrak welcomes feedback from customers such as you as it helps us to focus our efforts to improve service in the right direction. I was sorry to read that you are unhappy about the proposed changes to amenities offered by Amtrak on our long distance routes. We have passed your comments on to the appropriate management for their review and consideration.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to write to us. At Amtrak, we have a mission to consistently deliver high-quality, safe, on-time service that exceeds our customers’ expectations. We hope that we will continue to have your patronage and support of rail passenger services.

Sincerely,

Vanessa Scurry
_Customer Relations Specialist_
Office of Customer Relations
Washington, DC

p.s. In the meantime, try to understand that getting rid of that cheap wine and moldy cheese is gonna help save the Raton Pass routing of the SW Chief. Cheers!

*ADMISSION: The p.s. is mine, it was NOT included in the original email.................*


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Real PS: Getting rid of the Wine and Cheese Tastings, Am-Chocolates,USA Today, Cranberry Juice in the Sleeping Cars and Flowers on the Diner Tables will Save Amtrak Hundreds of Millions of Dollars and allow us to Increase/Expand Frequency of Service on LD Routes as well as Order Badly Needed New Equipment!


----------



## D.P. Roberts

PRR 60 said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to funding Amtrak, I look at it this way.
> 
> Amtrak needs approximately $1.4 billion dollars in subsidies per year.
> 
> The population of the US is roughly 350 million people.
> 
> So, it costs the people of the US roughly $4 per person per year to have a functioning rail system.
> 
> $4 a year isn't much. A Venti coffee can cost more than that.
> 
> But of course, you may argue that not everyone pays taxes, and not everyone rides Amtrak. Those statements are both true. Approximately half (122 million) of all Americans pay federal taxes, and roughly 31 million people ride Amtrak each year.
> 
> So, let's say roughly half of those 31 million Amtrak passengers are taxpayers. That means 15 million people are supporting a $1.4 billion train system. That works out to $100 per Amtrak-riding taxpayer, per year.
> 
> The average taxpayer (middle class making $46,000 per year) pays about $6400 in taxes. I say we pose this question to those Amtrak-riding, tax-paying passengers: "Less than 1.6% of your current tax bill goes towards supporting Amtrak, with the remaining 98.4% going towards other federally funded programs such as defense spending, Medicare, Social Security, etc. Considering how much of your tax money is going towards programs that don't benefit you or your family, are you okay with that measly 1.6% that's going to Amtrak, a service that you personally use?"
> 
> I think most Amtrak passengers would probably say yes.
> 
> So, despite the ravings of certain members of Congress, I would bet that Amtrak could actually support itself from taxpaying citizens who are using its service. I doubt that many other federal programs could say the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> There are not 31 million people riding Amtrak reach year. There are 31 million passenger boardings. Some people ride once a year, some ride 10 times, some commuters ride 400 times a year. My best guestimate: about 4 million people take one or more Amtrak rides each year.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I couldn't find an actual number of individual riders. I did wonder how many Amtrak passengers were commuters in the NEC - those 31 million pax reflect 11 million in the NEC, so there are still 20 million riders in the rest of the US. I still think that the logic remains the same. Those who have no intention to ever ride Amtrak probably don't want it to support it, while those who ride it the most often - especially multiple trips - have even more reason to support Amtrak, and would probably be willing to spend even more than 1.5% of their taxes on Amtrak.

If you really want to pick nits, you could point out that we don't have a balanced budget, most of your taxes are eaten up in debt servicing, etc. I'm trying not to veer into politics when comparing Amtrak to other federal agencies, but to look at the largest federal expenditures, American taxpayers (as outlined above) are paying about $6100 per year for the military, $11600 for Social Security, $5000 for Medicare - again, vs about $10 per taxpayer for Amtrak.

The point is that Amtrak costs the average American relatively NOTHING. It's chump change, less than a rounding error when compared to what we're spending on other federal programs. Amtrak spending is a simply a political football for politicians, and nothing more.


----------



## neroden

D.P. Roberts said:


> Yeah, I couldn't find an actual number of individual riders.


No real way to count. Some companies I've dealt with have 4 or 5 separate records for me, just through sloppiness, typos, etc.


----------



## Tom

I'm brand new to the forum. Please be understanding if I make a mistake or two. This thread seems to have started a few weeks ago & I read the first few pages, then skipped to more recent postings. The initial posting mentioned an Amtrak document that outlined a plan to reduce amenities on all LD trains except Auto Train. As of mid-March, Auto Train will be experiencing major reductions in amenities as well. These will take place before the reductions discussed for other trains.

The Auto Train currently serves meals to all passengers, both in coaches and sleepers, on a "complimentary" basis. This is not really a free service, as the "complimentary' meal has always been considered a part of the transportation provided, and the fare has always been said to include the cost of the meals. The train runs through between the D.C. area and Central Florida without boarding or detraining any passengers. Because of this schedule, dinner and breakfast are essential parts of the travel experience. Passenger counts often exceed 500, so it requires 3 Superliner diners to serve all passengers. Up to now, the diner serving the sleeping cars has had a somewhat higher level of service, including upgraded décor and quality of food and service. Effective Mid-March, all Auto Train diners will serve the same meals. The choices will be reduced; staffing levels will be reduced; wine will no longer be provided in diners; one of the train's two lounges will be eliminated. This is just a small sample of the changes that will be coming.

This, and all the changes described earlier in this thread, can be attributed entirely to the Inspector General's report last fall.

I am not an accountant and do not have access to the relevant figures, but I sincerely believe there are errors and faulty assumptions in the I.G.'s report, and that the report's conclusions are politically motivated. I have been very disappointed in Amtrak's official response to the report. The Company has essentially bowed to Amtrak's opponents and thrown in the towel without a fight, admitting in effect that it has been willfully wasteful. I've been with the Company too long, and have been a part of service delivery too long, to believe that.


----------



## neroden

Ugh. The stupid -- it burns. This is definitely politically motivated BS.

Only way to do something about this is for passengers to complain. I mean, yes, Amtrak will find lower ridership and revenue due to the stupid cuts, but if passengers complain, it'll make it much more obvious that the cuts are idiotic.

Thank you for the report of more idiotic and destructive cuts, Tom.

Reducing the lounge space on a train that crowded is *completely* insane and will just make people angry.


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> Ugh. The stupid -- it burns. This is definitely politically motivated BS.
> 
> Only way to do something about this is for passengers to complain. I mean, yes, Amtrak will find lower ridership and revenue due to the stupid cuts, but if passengers complain, it'll make it much more obvious that the cuts are idiotic.
> 
> Thank you for the report of more idiotic and destructive cuts, Tom.
> 
> Reducing the lounge space on a train that crowded is *completely* insane and will just make people angry.


But you must remember, earlier in the thread we were told that this would save routes, jobs, etc.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> How interesting. Five of the top 9, however, are X - Washington DC with one being X - Richmond. Charleston-NYC is the longest in the top 9 list. This stays just barely under the two-meal range, which seems to support my theory that you need diners if you want to get people to ride across three meals. Savannah-NY is not in the top 9 on the ridership list though it makes the revenue list.
> 
> It does seem that NYC is the 800-pound gorilla for US intercity train travel; more people will ride further in coach from NYC than from other places. Not totally clear on why, but it shows up in bus statistics too.


Well, the NYC metro region is the epicenter of rail transit and passenger rail in the US. The city has a rather large number of people who don't have cars and will take trains and buses to get to their destinations. More so than any other region or city in the US by a comfortable margin.
To put it into perspective, even after decades of higher population growth outside the Northeast, just NYC itself with 8.34 million (2012 Census estimates) has a larger population than the combined total of North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska, Idaho of 6.57 million. Now that is a difference in population density.


----------



## sunchaser

Green Maned Lion said:


> Hi, I'm back to... kill the idiocy of pension discussions right here in the bud. Employees with pensions are absolutely the death of America, aren't they? Um, no, no they aren't. Management of pension plans by company management is the problem, not the pension themselves.
> 
> It is my duty, as a lifetime employer, to provide my employee with enough money to live in a manner according to his station in life, and to provide that he can retire from my employee when he is no longer able to work for me, and as a reward and compensation for all those years duly serving me, can retire and live in the manner that he has become accustomed. If you can't afford to operate on employing somebody at that level, you can't afford the employee, stupid.
> 
> Actuarial tables show how long the average person is supposed to live, a number that has been going up at a fairly consistent overall rate for years and years and years. When you decide to offer your employees a pension plan- something I've been contemplating doing as of late, by the by- you have to work out how much it costs you. You have a typical old fashioned worker. He starts working for you at 20 or so, retires around 65, works for you for forty-five years. Right? Right.
> 
> Ok, so in todays dollars, Mr. Worker Dude works for me at, say, 30,000 a year. Lets assume no inflation, and no resulting raises, and an interest rate ahead of inflation at 3%, for simplicity of math. Actuarial tables suggest Mr. Worker Dude is going to live until he is approximately 90 years old (again, this is 40 years in the future, most people don't live to 90, but I should account for the fact that the average lifespan keeps going up). Ok. Fine. All well and good.
> 
> The pension plan keeps Mr. Worker Dude on at 2/3rds his working wage, social security and the fact that he should no longer have a home mortgage making his pensioned income match his working income. Ok. Time for the math all the other corporations should have been doing.
> 
> He does not make 30,000 working for me- thats his take home pay. Common trick stating the full amount, so that people can compare it with their take-home pay. No, employment costs way more than take home pay. Providing for the employees break area, workers compensation, etc. etc. makes it much higher, and the pension is part of the payment. Period. Its not just part of the payment- it is part of what the employee earns.
> 
> Anyway, employee will make 30,000 a year in salary, plus 10,000 a year in basic benefits (health insurance, workers comp, provided protection equipment, paid vacation and sick leave, etc) for 45 years, or $1.8 million. For a $20,000 a year pension, it will cost me $25k a year including the continued lifetime benefits, so if he lives until he is 90 I need to support him for 25 years at $25k, or $625,000.
> 
> Using a retirement calculator, we find that we need to prepare, under the parameters I laid out, to lay aside $6800 per additional employee per year. So the cost of that typical employee working those parameters with take home pay of $30,000 is $46800 a year. That $6800 per employee should be considered a separate account at the company. It should be untouchable, designed to fund each employees retirement. If there are less employees now, well thats irrelevant, because by the time Mr. Dude is retired, the amount I have contributed into the fund on his behalf should have provided the $625,000 I need to pay off his pension.
> 
> The bull-**** of Ponzi schemes, funnels, bubbles, and so on is just a company's way of trying to blame the fact that they mismanaged their business and possibly their retirement funds on the employees. That money should be set aside and separate from day to day management and operations of the business. They can, I suppose, use it to invest in their own business, paying the returns on it back to the fund with interest. Its as valid a place as any to try to generate that 3% return betting on your own competence. But the fact that you can't fund the company because you made that bet and lost is NOT the fault of retirement benefit drains. Its the fault of you screwing up your management of your business.
> 
> I'm not saying I am a perfect businessman, or that I haven't bet funds I perhaps shouldn't have been playing with on my belief that my next project was going to yield huge returns. I do that. But when I bet my money and lose it, its my fault. When I bet my employees pension benefits, and lose it, it is also my fault. When I promise to offer benefits, it is my job to recognize that providing that costs me $6800 extra a year for Mr. Dude, and consider that part of his compensation. Period.
> 
> He isn't draining me. He is working for me. If a satisfied worker, secure in his knowledge that his retirement and future are secure so long as he does good solid work for me, he is probably working hard for my benefit. It is my DUTY to guide my firm in a way that provides security for my workers livelihood (I build my empire with their hands, man), as well as make a decent living for myself (and I don't blast large salaries to competent management, either), and provide a fair return for my shareholders/investors.
> 
> So please, drop the retirement funds killing companies argument. Its a load of poppycock. People will blame anyone for doing something wrong, regardless of who the fault lays with.


*Dude! So glad to see you're back! Missed ya!*


----------



## rickycourtney

As many of you know I'm a journalist in my day job. I was also the one posted the original information on the cuts from an advisory that clearly came from Amtrak (I've seen their official internal advisories before in FOIA requests). That's why I had no qualms about reposting the information here. I think the public has a legitimate right to know about the cuts Amtrak (a government owned corporation) is making to their services.

The document that is now circling on the internet purports to shows a list of cuts to be made to the Auto Train. While I don't doubt that these cuts are coming (given the other cuts and the political situation Amtrak faces)... I caution that the document looks very unofficial. It could be the exact cuts that are to be made, it could just an early draft of them, it could also be a proposal that has been scrapped. Another possibility... it's a hoax.

I'm saddened to say that I think these cuts to the Auto Train are likely real... But until we see an official internal advisory... I'd treat it with just a touch of healthy skepticism.

I'll get off my soapbox now...


----------



## Ryan

Thanks, that's good to keep in mind.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I wonder why folks are still inclined to doubt these cuts. Is there any information that actually contradicts these claims or are are the naysayers simply assuming inertia holds sway over change? How many times have leaked Amtrak cuts turned out to be a hoax in the past and what reason would someone have for creating such a hoax? So far as I can tell these cuts are not only believable, they also line up well with the public positions of legislators and management with the power to force them. In my estimate anything up to and including loss of traditional dining cars would be within the realm of easy reasoning. I'd be far more likely to doubt a leaked report claiming new and additional services because it wouldn't fit anything else we've been seeing anywhere or hearing from anyone.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I can easily see the cuts to the ATs dining car, but went whoa when I saw the cut to the lounge car. That train needs two lounge cars- either of them become quite full as it is, and it wouldn't save much to cut one.


----------



## afigg

Green Maned Lion said:


> I can easily see the cuts to the ATs dining car, but went whoa when I saw the cut to the lounge car. That train needs two lounge cars- either of them become quite full as it is, and it wouldn't save much to cut one.


If the info is correct, the lounge car is being replaced with a coach car, so that change is about increasing capacity for revenue sales - on a ever more crowded train. However, I think discussions of the cuts to the AT should move to the new thread that lays out exactly what changes are being made and the cost savings/impacts of the changes.


----------



## Ispolkom

Just got an e-mail from Amtrak:



> Dear Amtrak Sleeping Car Passenger,
> 
> In an effort to be good stewards of the federal funding received to operate our Amtrak service, a number of steps are being taken to eliminate losses in our Food and Beverage department over the next five years. Some of the changes being made to accomplish this include the discontinuation of select amenities on the _Coast Starlight_, _Empire Builder,_ and _Lake Shore Limited._
> 
> On or about March 31, 2014, the pre-departure refreshments and on-board wine and cheese tastings for Sleeping car passengers will no longer be offered on the _Coast Starlight_, _Empire Builder_, or _Lake Shore Limited_. Additionally, the complimentary sparkling wine, non-alcoholic cider, and chocolate squares will no longer be provided to Sleeping car passengers on the _Empire Builder_ and the _Coast Starlight. _Sleeping car passengers will continue to receive all regular meals in the Dining car at no additional charge, and passengers may purchase cheese and cracker trays and other snacks, as well as liquor, wine and beer, in the Lounge car on all long- distance trains.
> 
> On approximately May 31, 2014, complimentary amenity kits will no longer be provided to sleeping car passengers on the _Empire Builder _and the _Coast Starlight_. Your Sleeping car attendant will continue to have select emergency toiletries on hand when needed.
> 
> While it is never easy to tell you, our valued customers, that we are eliminating some amenities, these changes are necessary in order to reduce costs, increase revenues and preserve passenger rail service across our country. If you have any questions or comments about these changes, feel free to contact me using the “contact us” link on the Amtrak.com home page.
> 
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Mark Murphy
> 
> General Manager, Long -Distance Services


I especially like "passengers may purchase cheese and cracker trays and other snacks, as well as liquor, wine and beer, in the Lounge car." I just hope that I don't get additional e-mails for each of the other 7 reservations I have on the Empire Builder this year.


----------



## JoeBas

> Dear Amtrak Sleeping Car Passenger,
> 
> While it is never easy to tell you, our valued customers, that we are eliminating some amenities, these changes are necessary in order to ... preserve passenger rail service across our country.



Hooray!!! Amtrak is saved by cutting out Juice!!! *Salutes Broken Arrows*


----------



## TVRM610

Well it's good that this e-mail was sent out so that passengers would not be surprised.

What continues to drive me crazy is there HAS to be a way to have the wine and cheese tastings profitable. Charge whatever it costs.. $5 a person, $10 a person.. even $15 a person if necessary. The staff is already there and getting paid. How much does it cost to stock the extra wines, and stock the cheese?

If people aren't willing to pay what it costs.. then say "sorry we can't lose money on having this amenity"


----------



## JoeBas

But every time someone eats wine or cheese on board a train, John Mica gets a >< little bit angrier.


----------



## NE933

The are a number of new breweries and distillors that I'm sure can be convinced to provide free samples of their product to build a customer base, that someone at Amtrak can talk to into supplying a couple of weeks worth of goods. Amtrak feeds the passengers with booze for nothing, and the startups get free advertising. Win/Win.


----------



## Golden grrl

Ispolkom said:


> Just got an e-mail from Amtrak:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Amtrak Sleeping Car Passenger,
> 
> In an effort to be good stewards of the federal funding received to operate our Amtrak service, a number of steps are being taken to eliminate losses in our Food and Beverage department over the next five years. Some of the changes being made to accomplish this include the discontinuation of select amenities on the _Coast Starlight_, _Empire Builder,_ and _Lake Shore Limited._
> 
> On or about March 31, 2014, the pre-departure refreshments and on-board wine and cheese tastings for Sleeping car passengers will no longer be offered on the _Coast Starlight_, _Empire Builder_, or _Lake Shore Limited_. Additionally, the complimentary sparkling wine, non-alcoholic cider, and chocolate squares will no longer be provided to Sleeping car passengers on the _Empire Builder_ and the _Coast Starlight. _Sleeping car passengers will continue to receive all regular meals in the Dining car at no additional charge, and passengers may purchase cheese and cracker trays and other snacks, as well as liquor, wine and beer, in the Lounge car on all long- distance trains.
> 
> On approximately May 31, 2014, complimentary amenity kits will no longer be provided to sleeping car passengers on the _Empire Builder _and the _Coast Starlight_. Your Sleeping car attendant will continue to have select emergency toiletries on hand when needed.
> 
> While it is never easy to tell you, our valued customers, that we are eliminating some amenities, these changes are necessary in order to reduce costs, increase revenues and preserve passenger rail service across our country. If you have any questions or comments about these changes, feel free to contact me using the “contact us” link on the Amtrak.com home page.
> 
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Mark Murphy
> 
> General Manager, Long -Distance Services
> 
> 
> 
> I especially like "passengers may purchase cheese and cracker trays and other snacks, as well as liquor, wine and beer, in the Lounge car." I just hope that I don't get additional e-mails for each of the other 7 reservations I have on the Empire Builder this year.
Click to expand...

What I don't get is why AMTRAK.COM continues its* false advertising*.

I copied the following from http://www.amtrak.com/coast-starlight-train at 7:20 pm EDT today [3/18/2014]:

_Each sleeping car passenger will receive complimentary meals (with the exception of alcohol) in the Dining Car or the Parlour Car, a special welcome gift and a personal amenities kit that includes shampoo, soaps and lotions. A daily tasting of local wines and artisan cheeses is available in the refurbished Pacific Parlour Car._

If I see that language still posted as of April 1, I will certainly be using the "contact us" link on the amtrak site. At the very least, they should be posting at the site something saying that the wine tastings and amenities kits are soon ending. They know these things are ending, yet they fail to mention that fact.


----------



## yarrow

Golden grrl said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just got an e-mail from Amtrak:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Amtrak Sleeping Car Passenger,
> 
> In an effort to be good stewards of the federal funding received to operate our Amtrak service, a number of steps are being taken to eliminate losses in our Food and Beverage department over the next five years. Some of the changes being made to accomplish this include the discontinuation of select amenities on the _Coast Starlight_, _Empire Builder,_ and _Lake Shore Limited._
> 
> On or about March 31, 2014, the pre-departure refreshments and on-board wine and cheese tastings for Sleeping car passengers will no longer be offered on the _Coast Starlight_, _Empire Builder_, or _Lake Shore Limited_. Additionally, the complimentary sparkling wine, non-alcoholic cider, and chocolate squares will no longer be provided to Sleeping car passengers on the _Empire Builder_ and the _Coast Starlight. _Sleeping car passengers will continue to receive all regular meals in the Dining car at no additional charge, and passengers may purchase cheese and cracker trays and other snacks, as well as liquor, wine and beer, in the Lounge car on all long- distance trains.
> 
> On approximately May 31, 2014, complimentary amenity kits will no longer be provided to sleeping car passengers on the _Empire Builder _and the _Coast Starlight_. Your Sleeping car attendant will continue to have select emergency toiletries on hand when needed.
> 
> While it is never easy to tell you, our valued customers, that we are eliminating some amenities, these changes are necessary in order to reduce costs, increase revenues and preserve passenger rail service across our country. If you have any questions or comments about these changes, feel free to contact me using the “contact us” link on the Amtrak.com home page.
> 
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Mark Murphy
> 
> General Manager, Long -Distance Services
> 
> 
> 
> I especially like "passengers may purchase cheese and cracker trays and other snacks, as well as liquor, wine and beer, in the Lounge car." I just hope that I don't get additional e-mails for each of the other 7 reservations I have on the Empire Builder this year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What I don't get is why AMTRAK.COM continues its* false advertising*.
> 
> I copied the following from http://www.amtrak.com/coast-starlight-train at 7:20 pm EDT today [3/18/2014]:
> 
> _Each sleeping car passenger will receive complimentary meals (with the exception of alcohol) in the Dining Car or the Parlour Car, a special welcome gift and a personal amenities kit that includes shampoo, soaps and lotions. A daily tasting of local wines and artisan cheeses is available in the refurbished Pacific Parlour Car._
> 
> If I see that language still posted as of April 1, I will certainly be using the "contact us" link on the amtrak site. At the very least, they should be posting at the site something saying that the wine tastings and amenities kits are soon ending. They know these things are ending, yet they fail to mention that fact.
Click to expand...

yup


----------



## amamba

Well I should be on the CS on 3/23 and on the EB on 3/26. I'll report back re: wine and cheese tastings!

I would also be glad to pay $10 to attend a wine and cheese tasting.


----------



## SarahZ

Me too.  We we went to Napa, we paid a flat fee to sample several wines at the wineries. I wouldn't mind paying $10 to sample wine and cheese on the train. It sounds lovely.


----------



## greatcats

I am awaiting some sort of a reply to my letter concerning this which I posted here last week that was sent to Mr. Boardman. If I just receive a form letter, then a stronger worded letter may be sent. I stand by what I wrote. And, I told Customer Service that I do not want a voucher for future travel. I appreciated the last one, but I did not write that letter to get freebies.


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> Me too.  We we went to Napa, we paid a flat fee to sample several wines at the wineries. I wouldn't mind paying $10 to sample wine and cheese on the train. It sounds lovely.


Wouldn't you want this offered on all routes? Even at a fee? Something about wanting all routes to offer the same amenities.....


----------



## SarahZ

tonys96 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Me too.  We we went to Napa, we paid a flat fee to sample several wines at the wineries. I wouldn't mind paying $10 to sample wine and cheese on the train. It sounds lovely.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't you want this offered on all routes? Even at a fee? Something about wanting all routes to offer the same amenities.....
Click to expand...

Yes, I figured that was implied. I've spoken often of how interesting it would be to have regional wines and/or mixers offered on the various LD routes. In my response, I was referring to all trains, not just the EB and such. I've never been on a train with a wine and cheese tasting, and I've always wished they would have that on all of the trains. If cost is an issue, then I don't mind paying $10 to sample the goods, so to speak.


----------



## sechs

amamba said:


> I would also be glad to pay $10 to attend a wine and cheese tasting.


As I recall, they tried that.

They'd be better off adding that ten bucks to the accomodation fare. Few people would even notice it.


----------



## VentureForth

sechs said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would also be glad to pay $10 to attend a wine and cheese tasting.
> 
> 
> 
> As I recall, they tried that.
> They'd be better off adding that ten bucks to the accomodation fare. Few people would even notice it.
Click to expand...

They probably did already, and no one noticed.


----------



## TVRM610

sechs said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would also be glad to pay $10 to attend a wine and cheese tasting.
> 
> 
> 
> As I recall, they tried that.
> 
> They'd be better off adding that ten bucks to the accomodation fare. Few people would even notice it.
Click to expand...

The problem is... the "fare" would still be going towards free wine instead of covering amtrak costs. That's how the politicians would see it. If a wine and cheese tasting were to cost money.. and it totally covered it's expenses and even made a small profit... I don't see how anyone would complain from the political parties.

Does anyone know weather it worked to charge $5? Does anyone have any guestimates on what it actually costs to have a wine and cheese tasting on a train? Obviously cost of the product but what am I missing... the extra fees for the commisarry to load the products and inventory them? Extra plates and wine glasses and the extra potential "loss" for the wine glasses being used for this service?

Of course the wine tasting always generated sales of the wine.. In fact I thought the sales of the wines themselves covered the costs of the tastings.. but perhaps not?


----------



## JoeBas

I'd imagine this would be difficult to police... it's pretty hard to sequester off a specific part of a train without stranding somebody somewhere in the consist, and "Pass-throughs" will invariably see the stuff out and go "Ooo! Freebies!"


----------



## Mr Stingy

As I stated before the cuts are saving Amtrak peanuts at the expense of the highest paying customers that contribute the most to their bottom line.. I say move the coach seats closer and cram them in as they do on the airlines. I don't see why sleeper class has to experience all of the cuts.


----------



## CHamilton

I get a little frustrated with the amount of virtual ink we waste bemoaning cuts like this. If we want to do something constructive to improve passenger rail service, we need to let our elected representatives know that we want it. I'll be on Capitol Hill on April 29 to do just that. Will you?


----------



## rrdude

CHamilton said:


> I get a little frustrated with the amount of virtual ink we waste bemoaning cuts like this. If we want to do something constructive to improve passenger rail service, we need to let our elected representatives know that we want it. I'll be on Capitol Hill on April 29 to do just that. Will you?


Good man Charlie. 'Ya got one more to go!

NARP Day on The Hill & Spring Council Meeting Registration Form - April 28-30, 2014Thank you for registering for NARP's Spring Council Meeting. Your response has been recorded...........


----------



## CHamilton

rrdude said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get a little frustrated with the amount of virtual ink we waste bemoaning cuts like this. If we want to do something constructive to improve passenger rail service, we need to let our elected representatives know that we want it. I'll be on Capitol Hill on April 29 to do just that. Will you?
> 
> 
> 
> Good man Charlie. 'Ya got one more to go!
> 
> NARP Day on The Hill & Spring Council Meeting Registration Form - April 28-30, 2014Thank you for registering for NARP's Spring Council Meeting. Your response has been recorded...........
Click to expand...

Outstanding! Who else can we get? Can we put together an AU mini-gathering?


----------



## yarrow

CHamilton said:


> I get a little frustrated with the amount of virtual ink we waste bemoaning cuts like this. If we want to do something constructive to improve passenger rail service, we need to let our elected representatives know that we want it. I'll be on Capitol Hill on April 29 to do just that. Will you?


no, i won't be on capitol hill, charlie. family, work and financial obligations preclude that.


----------



## CHamilton

yarrow said:


> no, i won't be on capitol hill, charlie. family, work and financial obligations preclude that.


I understand. But please contact Rep. McMorris Rodgers, and Senators Murray and Cantwell, and tell them that you support improved passenger rail service. Of particular interest in that district: we need daylight service between SPK and SEA, preferably via Pasco, Ellensburg and Auburn, over Stampede Pass. The infrastructure is already in place, so the cost would be relatively small.


----------



## afigg

Mr Stingy said:


> As I stated before the cuts are saving Amtrak peanuts at the expense of the highest paying customers that contribute the most to their bottom line.. I say move the coach seats closer and cram them in as they do on the airlines. I don't see why sleeper class has to experience all of the cuts.


There was an initiative proposed in the 2012 PIP reports to add 4 to 6 additional seats to all Superliner coach cars. The seat pitch would be reduced from 50-52 to 46-48 inches which still a lot compared to economy or business class airline seats. This would obviously boost coach capacity for the peak traffic periods across the LD system. What is the status of this plan, don't know.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TVRM610 said:


> What continues to drive me crazy is there HAS to be a way to have the wine and cheese tastings profitable. Charge whatever it costs.. $5 a person, $10 a person.. even $15 a person if necessary. The staff is already there and getting paid. How much does it cost to stock the extra wines, and stock the cheese?


I wonder if the underlying problem here is that "cheese and wine" are considered products big bad liberals enjoy while "real Americans" prefer a can of taste bud numbing Miller Time.



mikey mike said:


> coach-guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dead horse time yet?
> 
> 
> 
> That time passed about day two of this thread.
Click to expand...

You want some cheese with that whine?


----------



## Ryan

Devil's Advocate said:


> I wonder if the underlying problem here is that "cheese and wine" are considered products big bad liberals enjoy while "real Americans" prefer a can of taste bud numbing Miller Time.


There's probably something to that.




Devil's Advocate said:


> You want some cheese with that whine?


I'm sorry, those amenities have also been discontinued. You're welcome to purchase a slim jim and some Coors if you'd like a refreshment.


----------



## SarahZ

RyanS said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the underlying problem here is that *"cheese and wine" are considered products big bad liberals enjoy* while "real Americans" prefer a can of taste bud numbing Miller Time.
> 
> 
> 
> There's probably something to that.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Look at the news articles that rant about the poor, little taxpayers "subsidizing" the wine and cheese tastings on the trains. I believe there was an article out of... Atlanta?... over the Christmas holiday that got a lot of buzz on here.


----------



## Train Rider

Distasteful comments like the last few will win few to your side.


----------



## Ryan

I'm sorry that you find reality distasteful, Mr. Anonymous.


----------



## SarahZ

Train Rider said:


> Distasteful comments like the last few will win few to your side.


They're just joking around a little.

Also, DA wasn't too far off in his example:

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2014/01/27/top-20-best-selling-beers-of-2013.html


----------



## Paulus

If there is any association with cheese and wine, it isn't "Grr, liberal foods" but rather of wealth and class with the implicit question of "Why are we subsidizing the wealthy?"


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Train Rider said:


> Distasteful comments like the last few will win few to your side.


Who knows what some anonymous eavesdropper hiding in the shadows thinks? If you have something of value to contribute then bring it into the light where it can be considered and debated the same as anyone else.



Paulus said:


> If there is any association with cheese and wine, it isn't "Grr, liberal foods" but rather of wealth and class with the implicit question of "Why are we subsidizing the wealthy?"


Here in the "Freedom Fries" era there is a lot of phony symbolism being used to promote ignorant prejudices that help influence real policy. If the issue is giving wealthy people too much of a tax break then why isn't the House of Representatives pushing for larger landing fees, steeper facilities charges, and higher departure taxes for private jets? Why aren't they pushing to raise taxes on the purchase and use of private yachts and supercars? The closest that the obscenely wealthy ever get to Amtrak is on the back of the train in their own private car. Those handful of swanky palaces on wheels where the well to do relax with drinks and meals no Amtrak commissary is likely to stock. If the issue is really about wealth then where is all the clamoring for higher private car fees?


----------



## JoeBas

Devil's Advocate said:


> Train Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Distasteful comments like the last few will win few to your side.
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows what some anonymous eavesdropper hiding in the shadows thinks? If you have something of value to contribute then bring it into the light where it can be considered and debated the same as anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is any association with cheese and wine, it isn't "Grr, liberal foods" but rather of wealth and class with the implicit question of "Why are we subsidizing the wealthy?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here in the "Freedom Fries" era there is a lot of phony symbolism being used to promote ignorant prejudices that help influence real policy. If the issue is giving wealthy people too much of a tax break then why isn't the House of Representatives pushing for larger landing fees, steeper facilities charges, and higher departure taxes for private jets? Why aren't they pushing to raise taxes on the purchase and use of private yachts and supercars? The closest that the obscenely wealthy ever get to Amtrak is on the back of the train in their own private car. Those handful of swanky palaces on wheels where the well to do relax with drinks and meals no Amtrak commissary is likely to stock. If the issue is really about wealth then where is all the clamoring for higher private car fees?
Click to expand...

You're missing the point, DA. Politicians never campaign against the ACTUALLY wealthy - that'd bite the hand that feeds them.

The grandstand against the APPEARANCE of wealthy, to placate the masses... all while they know they're owned by the ACTUAL wealthy lock, stock and barrel.


----------



## First_Class_Has_No_Class

TrainLoverJoy said:


> It also said preboarding snacks would no longer be offered......does that mean the chips/cookies served in the Metropolitan Lounge will be gone I wonder. I did enjoy those!


Does anyone know if this is true? That the various Lounge (ClubAcela, Metro, etc) snacks (chips, danish, cookies, soda, juice, etc) are being eliminated too?


----------



## Allypet

Someone in Amtrak told that me on the AT, besides losing the wine and cheese, wine at dinner, and the sleeper lounge car itself, the fruit in the lounge car is being cut right after supplies run out, the small bottles of water in the sleeper rooms are in danger of being cut, but the coffee machines are safe for now. So I would say anything is possible at this point.


----------



## rrdude

This is what I'd like to see on Amtrak, for the appropriate fee:







Alas, the image below seems to be what a large number of people would be "happy with"






Top bunk even gets bedside beverage service!

You think I jest.......................... Soon it will be nothing more than a flat bed, with a door that (sometimes) closes....

Oh the wasted opportunities..........


----------



## Guest

rrdude said:


> Top bunk even gets bedside beverage service!


And the bottom bunk has a smoking lounge. 

Is this the type of car that people refer to here as the old "slumber" car?

I think in an old _I Love Lucy_, Fred and Ethel Mertz road in such a train car to save money while Ricky, Lucy, and Lucy's mother had immensely large bedroom suites.


----------



## rrdude

Guest said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top bunk even gets bedside beverage service!
> 
> 
> 
> And the bottom bunk has a smoking lounge.
> 
> Is this the type of car that people refer to here as the old *"slumber*" car?
> 
> I think in an old _I Love Lucy_, Fred and Ethel Mertz road in such a train car to save money while Ricky, Lucy, and Lucy's mother had immensely large bedroom suites.
Click to expand...

No, no, no, this is not the "Slumber Coach" they were outfitted with tiny one or two person "rooms" Still had a private room, but very cozy, closest thing to having "just a bed for flat space"

This looks like, (no expert here) a made-for-the-military dormitory or most likely hospital car. (notice the wooden 2X4 braces)

Prior to Superliner introduction, I did sleep in Amtrak dormitory car on SW Chief. I thought, "Hey, top bunk (of three) will be fun." My Gawd, I almost bounced out of that bunk several times............... I soon learned one reason to report EARLY when working the Chief, "Bottom Bunk".

I think Fred and Ethel Mertz were in something more like this, (I called "Sectional" but believe the proper term is "Section") They are basically open seats, that covert to a bed at night, but your "privacy" is only a heavy curtain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dfg9H-KH5Y


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Many of the WWII era military Sleepers were converted box cars, yet service was still provided by Pullman and the Porters did the best they could to maintain Pullman quality, including providing the famous Pullman blankets.


----------



## Guest

On the Capitol Limited yesterday at breakfast, the service attendant asked us to call or write our congressmen to plead that dining cars be retained on long distance routes. There, she said, was pressure to get rid of the diners. Hope that isn't true. That would be the loss of an amenity (necessity?) that would keep me riding LD trains.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Guest said:


> On the Capitol Limited yesterday at breakfast, the service attendant asked us to call or write our congressmen to plead that dining cars be retained on long distance routes. There, she said, was pressure to get rid of the diners. Hope that isn't true. That would be the loss of an amenity (necessity?) that would keep me riding LD trains.


No need to wonder as several members of congress have already gone on the record attacking Amtrak in general and the dining operation in particular. I'm not sure why this information isn't getting out but it's real and it's having a demonstrable impact. But hey, US airlines removed most of the amenities too and yet Americans still ride them so what's the harm right?


----------



## Railroad Bill

rrdude said:


> This is what I'd like to see on Amtrak, for the appropriate fee:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alas, the image below seems to be what a large number of people would be "happy with"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top bunk even gets bedside beverage service!
> 
> You think I jest.......................... Soon it will be nothing more than a flat bed, with a door that (sometimes) closes....
> 
> Oh the wasted opportunities..........


Oh, I thought this was our AU group on its way to another Gathering.  I am not sure if this is what we mean when we say Party Train :giggle: Was that Penny in her private bedroom while the remainder of us are in the dorm car.?/


----------



## Ryan

rrdude said:


> This is what I'd like to see on Amtrak, for the appropriate fee:


The accommodations, or the girl?


----------



## dabrilloman

Devil's Advocate said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the Capitol Limited yesterday at breakfast, the service attendant asked us to call or write our congressmen to plead that dining cars be retained on long distance routes. There, she said, was pressure to get rid of the diners. Hope that isn't true. That would be the loss of an amenity (necessity?) that would keep me riding LD trains.
> 
> 
> 
> No need to wonder as several members of congress have already gone on the record attacking Amtrak in general and the dining operation in particular. I'm not sure why this information isn't getting out but it's real and it's having a demonstrable impact. But hey, US airlines removed most of the amenities too and yet Americans still ride them so what's the harm right?
Click to expand...

As long as the 1%'ers (of which Congress is 99% made up of) still get their 1st class services, they don't care how us sheeple (the 99%) travel. As long as they are getting their tax breaks, entitlements and deregulations they are fine with us getting our "trickle down"...in other words "pissed on". Until we vote the 1%'ers out of office, get the money influence out of Congress and Citizens United repelaled nothing will change.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Heh. Amtrak won't survive the kinds of reforms we need. We need an all new government. A whole new legal system. The works. But that's not for us to think about or decide right now. The proletariat is not uncomfortable enough yet.


----------



## brentrain17

Are the snack services being removed from the Metropolitan lounges?


----------



## oldtimer

Railroad Bill said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I'd like to see on Amtrak, for the appropriate fee:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alas, the image below seems to be what a large number of people would be "happy with"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top bunk even gets bedside beverage service!
> 
> You think I jest.......................... Soon it will be nothing more than a flat bed, with a door that (sometimes) closes....
> 
> Oh the wasted opportunities..........
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I thought this was our AU group on its way to another Gathering.  I am not sure if this is what we mean when we say Party Train :giggle: Was that Penny in her private bedroom while the remainder of us are in the dorm car.?/
Click to expand...

That picture was taken in "the travelers" penthouse suite!


----------



## Texan Eagle

I have a better idea for reducing costs if anyone is willing to listen- Amtrak should eliminate engines from all trains. That will save a lot of cost in terms of diesel and engineer salary. The small discomfort is that the train will now not be able to move from where it is, but these are small compromises we must adopt if we want to see Amtrak survive.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Texan Eagle said:


> I have a better idea for reducing costs if anyone is willing to listen- Amtrak should eliminate engines from all trains. That will save a lot of cost in terms of diesel and engineer salary. The small discomfort is that the train will now not be able to move from where it is, but these are small compromises we must adopt if we want to see Amtrak survive.


Decisions, decisions. Do I want an engine/engineer that will get me from point A to point B, which is what transportation is about, or a wine & cheese tasting, which I could probably find near my home or my destination.


----------



## rrdude

AmtrakBlue said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a better idea for reducing costs if anyone is willing to listen- Amtrak should eliminate engines from all trains. That will save a lot of cost in terms of diesel and engineer salary. The small discomfort is that the train will now not be able to move from where it is, but these are small compromises we must adopt if we want to see Amtrak survive.
> 
> 
> 
> Decisions, decisions. Do I want an engine/engineer that will get me from point A to point B, which is what transportation is about, or a wine & cheese tasting, which I could probably find near my home or my destination.
Click to expand...

Still *more* decisions, decisions...... Should I pay the very high, Market-Driven rates for sleeper service, or should I save some more moola, and plan on trip on the Candian?

fwiw, I just canx my trip on the Starlight southbound this July........... I'm *100% positive* that Amtrak will re-sell the bedroom at a premium rate, but they won't get that from me.


----------



## Allypet

Alas, the image below seems to be what a large number of people would be "happy with"








Guest said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top bunk even gets bedside beverage service!
> 
> 
> 
> And the bottom bunk has a smoking lounge.
> 
> Is this the type of car that people refer to here as the old "slumber" car?
> 
> I think in an old _I Love Lucy_, Fred and Ethel Mertz road in such a train car to save money while Ricky, Lucy, and Lucy's mother had immensely large bedroom suites.
Click to expand...


The B&O museum in Baltimore has a troop train car on display. I have to say it looked more roomier then my last night in a AT roomette upper!


----------



## jimhudson

I remember my late dad talking about troop trains and troop sleepers during WWII. The Santa Fe Rail Museum @ the Temple, Tx Amtrak Station has a troop sleeper on display along with other old heritage cars, box cars, switchers and a SF Steam Engine! It doesn't look comfortable to me (they were NOT Air Conditioned) and that's without a full load of soldiers aboard! Of course it beat Chair Coaches and Standing Up like so many old timers experienced during the War!


----------



## jimhudson

brentrain17 said:


> Are the snack services being removed from the Metropolitan lounges?


Yes by the pigs @ the trough that grab them soon as the attend puts an inadequate supply out! (Especially in the NYP CA and CHIs infamous Overcrowded Basement Lounge!)


----------



## greatcats

Chicago's lounge does not win awards, but it isn't a bad place to wait. Better than the cattle scenes.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I can't disagree that waiting in Chicagos Metropolitan lounge is better than being squeezed into a glorified cattle pen. Maybe that's why the Chicago lounge dragons believe they're guarding something actually worth sneaking into. Premium lounges have more than a seat and a cup of Pepsi...

Link 1: http://boardingarea.com/onemileatatime/2014/01/26/review-virgin-atlantic-clubhouse-new-york-jfk-airport/

Link 2: http://boardingarea.com/onemileatatime/2014/03/20/review-american-express-centurion-lounge-dallas-dfw-airport/


----------



## andersone

My sainted pappy, who went into the Navy as a Chief in 1942 and came out in 1945 as a Chief - even though he had a masters in mathematics (he was too short an fat for the officer qual) spent almost the last year of his career ferrying troops from Great Lakes to San Diego on the old Super Chief. With four chiefs underneath him and a fifth of whiskey his only orders were "don't loose even one of them" . Maybe that's why he loved trains - although he claimed it was only forty hours of fun,


----------



## OBS

More revisions announced to dining car service. Tablecloths will no longer be used for breakfast/lunch service, just placemats on the bare table. For dinner, a tablecloth will be placed with sheets of butcherblock paper on top, one for each estimated dinner seating for the evening. Also sliced pickles being removed from use as a garnish, mainly because of a procurement issue that causes more waste/condemmage than is considered worthwhile. It is a complicated reason which I can explain if requested....


----------



## rrdude

OBS said:


> More revisions announced to dining car service. Tablecloths will no longer be used for breakfast/lunch service, just placemats on the bare table. For dinner, a tablecloth will be placed with sheets of butcherblock paper on top, one for each estimated dinner seating for the evening. Also sliced pickles being removed from use as a garnish, mainly because of a procurement issue that causes more waste/condemmage than is considered worthwhile. It is a complicated reason which I can explain if requested....


And so it goes.................................. Away


----------



## greatcats

Thank you, OBS. More info, please. I could do without the tablecloths, but in my letter to Mr. Boardman, I said the dining cars look like a cheap coffee shop. I mean that and I am awaiting some kind of a reply.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Wow! No table cloths or pickles! That will save millions! What's next? Maybe doing away with Silverware and letting the Pax eat with their hands will do the trick?!

Thanks for the update OBS, please keep us posted about this BeanCounters go beserk! Starring the Three Stooges and the Keystone Cops!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Amtrak dining cars are shedding the accoutrements that once gave them a more appealing atmosphere and exposing the cheap McDonald's core that is probably more appropriate for the high calorie low nutrition preprocessed cooking.


----------



## jis

Even McDonalds and Burger King gives pickles buried within various burgers. Oh well.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I, for one, am not disappointed about the pickle. I have never understood why a strong flavored food item is automatically added to the plate (anywhere, not just Amtrak) w/o asking the customer first. I hate when my food touches the pickle or pickle juice.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Even McDonalds and Burger King gives pickles buried within various burgers. Oh well.


Unfortunately even when you order the burger plain (and mustard too) :angry2:


----------



## CHamilton

I don't wanna pickle,

I just wanna ride on my train so fickle...


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AmtrakBlue said:


> I, for one, am not disappointed about the pickle. I have never understood why a strong flavored food item is automatically added to the plate (anywhere, not just Amtrak) w/o asking the customer first. I hate when my food touches the pickle or pickle juice.


I could understand being upset if your burger came dressed with horseradish or sriracha or something but a pickle or two seems like such a minor issue to me. Where I come from pickles are often used on foods kids eat precisely because they are not too strong for young taste buds. I'm not a fan of pickles myself because I don't like the limp rubbery texture that is typical of low quality cucumber pickling. On the other hand I don't expect my food to come from a sterile clean room with cooks dressed in anti-contamination suits.



_*We're here to make your pickle free burger, ma'am.*_


----------



## OBS

The (complicated) story regarding the pickle involves the vendor (B&G brand) and the West coast commissaries. Evidently the pickle spears are a special order item that B&G makes specifically for Amtrak. In the past few years, B&G has consistently raised the minimum order quantity to the point Amtrak has to order so many, that they are past their shelf life before large quantities are ever used.

Thus massive waste. I didn't realize pickle spears were such a rare commodity, but this is the story the memo gave out.


----------



## SarahZ

I think it's the vinegar, honestly. I LOVE pickles, but I know many do not like them because of that brine-y, vinegar taste. I always take the pickle off my boyfriend's plate because he can't stand them.

If the pickles aren't patted with a paper towel first, the pickle juice can run all over and soak the hamburger bun and chips, making them soggy and pickle-y. So, in that case, I can see why it would annoy people.


----------



## Eric S

CHamilton said:


> I don't wanna pickle,
> 
> I just wanna ride on my train so fickle...


Well done, sir, well done.


----------



## jebr

OBS said:


> Tablecloths will no longer be used for breakfast/lunch service, just placemats on the bare table. For dinner, a tablecloth will be placed with sheets of butcherblock paper on top, one for each estimated dinner seating for the evening.


Weren't they using butcherblock paper already in the diners, just for all three meals? If so, I think placemats on the bare table are a step up from butcherblock paper. It should also speed things up a bit, I would think (though maybe the time from trying to move the old piece of paper out to a fresh one is comparable to cleaning the table between each patron.)

Honestly, I would like to see them either use real tablecloths or just bare tables, no placemat (unless the placemats surprise me with how formal they appear.)


----------



## montana mike

The email I just received, signed by Mark Murphy at Amtrak, stated all of these actions were designed to not just reduce costs but to "increase revenue". Maybe he knows something I don't know, but cutting back on what you offer to your guests and customers and lowering their expectations and still marketing your product as a "first class" experience, is not a way you "increase revenue".

Oh, well. Most people are very happy to pay more for an experience if they truly perceive that experience will be enhanced and value added by the amenities being offered. Just look at cars. The big bucks cars survived the downturn in auto sales much better than the econoboxes because there is always a certain number of people who are ready, willing and able to pay for "the extras". If I have learned one thing in my 20+ years in the Marketing business is just this tenet!!


----------



## SarahZ

I'm not convinced they're going to lose business, though. Sure, some of the posters on this forum are upset, but they still ride trains. I, personally, don't care, because the private room and shower are worth the upgrade cost.

Once we have some ridership numbers, it'll be easier to say if this is affecting the bottom line or not. If they post the same (or record) ridership numbers for the LD routes again, then this is sort of moot.

Remember, only three trains were affected by the big amenities - the wine and cheese tastings, the champagne, and the comfort kits (which were hit or miss as it was). On the other LD routes, it's doubtful the majority of passengers (i.e. people who don't post here) will notice missing flowers or a missing newspaper. I can't remember the last time I got a newspaper anyway.

There's a lot of armchair quarterbacking about Amtrak becoming a sinking ship and everyone ending up in steerage bunks and on and on. Let's wait for the numbers and stop sliding down this slippery slope.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> The email I just received, signed by Mark Murphy at Amtrak, stated all of these actions were designed to not just reduce costs but to "increase revenue". Maybe he knows something I don't know, but cutting back on what you offer to your guests and customers and lowering their expectations and still marketing your product as a "first class" experience, is not a way you "increase revenue".


you have to remember that amtrak is a monopoly and that monopolies are generally quite unresponsive to their customers. if we get tired of being jerked around there is always another sap out there


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> I'm not convinced they're going to lose business, though. Sure, some of the posters on this forum are upset, but they still ride trains. I, personally, don't care, because the private room and shower are worth the upgrade cost.
> 
> Once we have some ridership numbers, it'll be easier to say if this is affecting the bottom line or not. If they post the same (or record) ridership numbers for the LD routes again, then this is sort of moot.
> 
> Remember, only three trains were affected by the big amenities - the wine and cheese tastings, the champagne, and the comfort kits (which were hit or miss as it was). On the other LD routes, it's doubtful the majority of passengers (i.e. people who don't post here) will notice missing flowers or a missing newspaper. I can't remember the last time I got a newspaper anyway.
> 
> There's a lot of armchair quarterbacking about Amtrak becoming a sinking ship and everyone ending up in steerage bunks and on and on. Let's wait for the numbers and stop sliding down this slippery slope.


4 routes lost amenities. So far. But that makes them closer to equal to the other routes, correct?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I had actually been thinking of suggesting to them that they do placemats for breakfast/lunch (seriously, where else do you still see table clothes of that type being used in restaurants that don't require at least business casual attire?)

And the butcher block paper with real table cloth under it really does make sense for dinner.

If this is the kind of intelligent snipping of waste, I'm for it. Amtrak has always had a stuck in the mud mentality. When they stopped washing china onboard, they tried to hide it with those fake paper table clothes and plastic plates that looked like the china they replaced. It kinda reminds me of GMs early downsizing where they took the big full sized dinosaurs and replaced them with miniature front wheel drive replicas of them. Whereas Ford took their full size LTD and replaced it with the Taurus, an actual well thought out imaginative response to the conflicting needs at the time of economy verses six seat comfort.

So I am pleased. Amtrak is cutting again, yes. But not mindlessly.


----------



## rrdude

SarahZ said:


> I'm not convinced they're going to lose business, though. Sure, some of the posters on this forum are upset, *but they still ride trains*. I, personally, don't care, because the private room and shower are worth the upgrade cost.......................


Yeah?

Not so much for me.

I just CANX my second trip on the Cap in May.

Canx'd my CS trip yesterday.

I know, most of you will say, "We'll, it's your loss, and look who has the last laugh, the sleepers are still sold out............"

Just me I guess. Amtrak, while I still like riding trains, can shove these new policies "where the sun doesn't shine."

I'm talking with my wallet.

REFUND RECEIPT

Purchased: 03/08/2014 4:25 PM PTModified: 03/20/2014 9:13 AM PTThank you for your business.
60 Massachusetts AvenueWashington, DC 20002800-USA-RAILAmtrak.com
[SIZE=12.727272033691406px]Reservation Number - XXXXXX[/SIZE]
Change Summary Reservation Canceled

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REFUND RECEIPT

Purchased: 03/21/2014 11:57 AM PTModified: 03/21/2014 11:57 AM PTThank you for your business.
60 Massachusetts AvenueWashington, DC 20002800-USA-RAILAmtrak.com


Reservation Number - 6XXXXX
Your transaction has resulted in a credit. We have created an eVoucher (electronic voucher) showing this credit. This eVoucher is redeemable for future travel and in some cases may also have refund value. For more information, including conditions for use, go to www.amtrak.com/evoucher or call 800-USA-RAIL.
eVouchers Created
JERRY PILCHER

eVoucher XXXXXXXXX Issued 03/21/14Expires 03/20/15
$565.00


----------



## Green Maned Lion

No, the jokes on you. They still have $565 of your money and you have to use it with them.


----------



## jis

I find it incredible that some actually rides Amtrak just for the dining experience and the pickles and flowers and cranberry juices for free (er. paid for by the fare). But that may be just me of course. I certainly will continue to ride it as and when I need it for transport and/or leisure, when it fits my plans just like I do now.

It is true in every country of the world that the run of the mill train service is generally pretty "blah". Yes in many countries there are a few prestige trains run either by the same railroad that runs the "blah" run of the mill service or by some other outfit. But certainly most trains in most places are not where one would go to try to get a "gourmet" experience of any sort. IMHO as long as the run of the mill service that is provided adequately serves the needs of the traveling public the outfit is serving 90% of its purpose. If in addition it can pull off running a few luxury trains, more power to it. But if it doesn't, well c'est la vie. Yes they will lose some ridership perhaps. But as long as it is not a disastrous loss, no harm done.

OK, now I am donning my +6 charmed Chain Mail and ducking. :help: :hi:


----------



## rrdude

Green Maned Lion said:


> No, the jokes on you. They still have $565 of your money and you have to use it with them.


Well actually, almost 2 or 3 X that, but I still feel the value on the Acela FC.


----------



## CHamilton

jis said:


> But certainly most trains in most places are not where one would go to try to get a "gourmet" experience of any sort. IMHO as long as the run of the mill service that is provided adequately serves the needs of the traveling public the outfit is serving 90% of its purpose.


Is it too much to ask for to have comfortable, reliable, and affordable transportation? We seem to be in a place where one can get two of those, but never all three.


----------



## Railroad Bill

I guess we are disappointed in the loss of some of the amenities, but most are not a crucial element in whether we ride Amtrak. We enjoy the ride, the scenery, the convenience of not driving long distances, meeting new people and sharing stories, and the food, which in our opinion is usually pretty good.

I am concerned as to what is happening to the Empire Builder, once a quality ride on Amtrak, that has now become a joke. 

But as long as the CZ and SWC can get us to the west coast, we will continue to ride and have fun. The older you get, the more you appreciate the experiences you have


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> I find it incredible that some actually rides Amtrak just for the dining experience and the pickles and flowers and cranberry juices for free (er. paid for by the fare). But that may be just me of course. I certainly will continue to ride it as and when I need it for transport and/or leisure, when it fits my plans just like I do now.


I agree.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SarahZ said:


> I'm not convinced they're going to lose business, though. Sure, some of the posters on this forum are upset, but they still ride trains. I, personally, don't care, because the private room and shower are worth the upgrade cost. Once we have some ridership numbers, it'll be easier to say if this is affecting the bottom line or not. If they post the same (or record) ridership numbers for the LD routes again, then this is sort of moot.


I remember many people saying something similar about service reductions at US airlines over the last few decades. The airlines continued reducing service levels, and adding more fees, and suffering performance degradation, and further restricting customer recourse during irregular operations. But they were careful about it. They didn't make all these changes at once. Instead they implemented them as part of a series of waves that each seemed relatively minor at the time. Americans begain to complain but in the end most of them simply lowered their expectations and kept on flying like nothing had happened. That would be the end of my post except that I don't think I've never seen a forum whine and moan about airline service more than this one. So maybe the little things really do matter and maybe this issue isn't really moot after all.



SarahZ said:


> There's a lot of armchair quarterbacking about Amtrak becoming a sinking ship and everyone ending up in steerage bunks and on and on. Let's wait for the numbers and stop sliding down this slippery slope.


I think you may be confusing a joke with a serious complaint.


----------



## yarrow

we are sitting in the metro lounge in pdx and see there is a notice about the impending amenities cuts


----------



## neroden

OBS said:


> More revisions announced to dining car service. Tablecloths will no longer be used for breakfast/lunch service, just placemats on the bare table.


Honestly, this will probably look better. Real placemats would be nice.
I'm guessing they're going to go with paper, though. :-( Makes it easier to throw more crap away and be less environmentally conscious.

Amtrak should advertise the huge amount of garbage it sends to landfills when it doesn't need to. If it doesn't advertise that, I'll be happy to advertise it for them. ;-)



> For dinner, a tablecloth will be placed with sheets of butcherblock paper on top, one for each estimated dinner seating for the evening.


This.... won't look better. Butcher block paper is really, really low end and people know it.



> Also sliced pickles being removed from use as a garnish, mainly because of a procurement issue that causes more waste/condemmage than is considered worthwhile. It is a complicated reason which I can explain if requested....


Fine by me. This is a rational change given the bizarre procurement issues.


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> in the end most of them simply lowered their expectations and kept on flying like nothing had happened.


I'm not at all sure that that is true. It's hard to get a breakdown of the nature of the trips currently taken by airplane; I think they suffer from counting unlinked trips (so they double-count when people change planes).

I spent a while looking at the T-100 airplane ridership numbers from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, which have a long time series. They dropped sharply in 2001, grew through 2007, dropped sharply in 2008, and are flat-to-declining since then.

Ridership on small airplanes (60 seats or less) is not included in the T-100 data, but is included in the "headline" data starting in 2002. These show a significant and large rise in ridership, *not* present in the T-100 data, indicating that something rather more complicated is happening in the airline market. Those little puddlejumpers never had on-board amenities. I'm not sure why they're getting more riders, but it could be related to forced transfers, and be essentially a double-counting artifact.

Anecdotally, I've heard of a lot of air-to-car shifts in travel.


----------



## zepherdude

I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore.

You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

zepherdude said:


> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore.
> 
> You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.


Ditto


----------



## afigg

zepherdude said:


> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore.
> 
> You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.


+2
I thought the purpose of a train service is to get one from one place to another in a reasonable degree of comfort, at an acceptable pace, and depending on one's financial status, at an affordable price. So far, the changes have been in the small stuff: wine & cheese tastings, flowers, loss of the sleeper lounge on the AT, changing the child's fare age limit, and so on. The LD trains are still running with sleeper and diner service. Much of what Amtrak is doing is following the path taken by the airlines over the last several decades; trimming amenities to reduce costs and employing a complex price structure designed to maximize revenue. Whether the airlines customers were happy about the changes or not, going very lean on service has kept the airlines in business and led to actual operating profits (for now).

So far, Amtrak has not taken it anywhere near as far as the airlines with much tighter seating in coach, charging extra for all checked bags, and so on. The airlines also have aggressively cut the number of domestic flights over the past 6-8 years to increase passenger loads on the remaining flights. Amtrak has not done that nor should it because there is no excess of daily service frequencies to cut. Whether there are more shoes to drop for the LD trains and the system as a whole, well, we shall see what happens in Congress this year.


----------



## boxcarsyix

So far the only big change is the elimation of the second lounge on the AT. LD trains should have enough lounge space to allow for reasonable use. My last trip on the CS had an SSL instead of the PPC. It was mostly empty. If the other SSL was not overly used, it is hard to justify two lounge cars. NOT THAT I WOULD NOT MISS THE PPC, but the use may not pay for it.

Different menus on different trains would be nice, especially on my upcoming CZ SWC CS trip, but I can live with what they offer.

I would be dissapointed not to have bottled water in the sleepers though.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

zepherdude said:


> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore. You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.


So the discovery that some strangers have different desires than yours bothers you enough to start shouting and bossing people around? Who are you to tell other people if their topics and concerns are acceptable or not? Maybe you had a point somewhere in that mess of judgmental shouting but the way you wrote it makes you sound like a confused hobo who just discovered the internet yesterday.


----------



## tonys96

afigg said:


> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore. You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> +2I thought the purpose of a train service is to get one from one place to another in a reasonable degree of comfort, at an acceptable pace, and depending on one's financial status, at an affordable price. So far, the changes have been in the small stuff: wine & cheese tastings, flowers, loss of the sleeper lounge on the AT, changing the child's fare age limit, and so on. The LD trains are still running with sleeper and diner service. Much of what Amtrak is doing is following the path taken by the airlines over the last several decades; trimming amenities to reduce costs and employing a complex price structure designed to maximize revenue. Whether the airlines customers were happy about the changes or not, going very lean on service has kept the airlines in business and led to actual operating profits (for now).So far, Amtrak has not taken it anywhere near as far as the airlines with much tighter seating in coach, charging extra for all checked bags, and so on. The airlines also have aggressively cut the number of domestic flights over the past 6-8 years to increase passenger loads on the remaining flights. Amtrak has not done that nor should it because there is no excess of daily service frequencies to cut. Whether there are more shoes to drop for the LD trains and the system as a whole, well, we shall see what happens in Congress this year.
Click to expand...

Two key words in your post: So far.


----------



## tonys96

zepherdude said:


> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore.
> 
> You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.


Free stuff? What 'free stuff' are you talking of?


----------



## cpamtfan

Devil's Advocate said:


> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore. You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> So the discovery that some strangers have different desires than yours bothers you enough to start shouting and bossing people around? Who are you to tell other people if their topics and concerns are acceptable or not? Maybe you had a point somewhere in that mess of judgmental shouting but the way you wrote it makes you sound like a confused hobo who just discovered the internet yesterday.
Click to expand...


The only one I see shouting and being bossy is you.


----------



## boxcarsyix

Just a side note concerning the Airline's cutting service. Just checked Delta Sacramento to Chicago in first class. The price is $650.00 im May. This compares with a roomette on the CZ at the same time. AFAIK first class on the airlines has not suffered the cuts that coach has. So we may need to compare apples to apples as far as amenites are concerned. (First class lounges, food, drinks, luggage, etc)


----------



## SubwayNut

When you fly domestic first class it doesn't include lounge access in the US (except certain transcon routes), its only an international amenity. This is because of the membership based/pay per use model that prevails here. Something those with S+ benefit from since we can access UnitedClubs.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

cpamtfan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore. You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> So the discovery that some strangers have different desires than yours bothers you enough to start shouting and bossing people around? Who are you to tell other people if their topics and concerns are acceptable or not? Maybe you had a point somewhere in that mess of judgmental shouting but the way you wrote it makes you sound like a confused hobo who just discovered the internet yesterday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only one I see shouting and being bossy is you.
Click to expand...

I may be blunt but I do not shout. I also don't bother with kid gloves for thin skins. If someone feels the need to bash the very existence of a thread then maybe they should find another thread to read or start their own.


----------



## amamba

SubwayNut said:


> When you fly domestic first class it doesn't include lounge access in the US (except certain transcon routes), its only an international amenity. This is because of the membership based/pay per use model that prevails here. Something those with S+ benefit from since we can access UnitedClubs.


but the airline lounges are also generally much nicer and more luxurious than the Amtrak lounges. They have full meals and free booze. Also airline first class tends to include alcohol.


----------



## Allypet

I posted this on the AT thread, but I think it bears reposting here. Below are messages I received from someone in Amtrak about the AT cuts. I removed all reference to this person. I take this to mean this is only the beginning of cuts, and things will get worse before they will get better, and the fact that they are so over working the crew will also have a chilling effect on service. I ride the AT very often, so it hits close to home for me.

"I notice that the people who are most certain that this new plan will work, are mostly located far from A-T's route and probably have never ridden the train & probably never will. 90 min. per seating in the diner is a ludicrous plan, created by office-dwellers who have never worked on board. It may become possible when salads are eliminated., which will happen soon when the job of the guy who makes the salads is eliminated (probably about a month from now, when jobs go up for re-bid). Right now, veterans are looking at transfer options, possibly quitting altogether, retiring, or other options. Diner crews give up their own dinner break & STILL can't keep the 4 dinner seatings on time. The one lounge attendant is often overwhelmed. People who don't know the job will blame the O.B.S. crews, but the fault lies with managers who are TOTALLY uninvolved in the day to day implementation of their bogus plan. I repeat, NO experience O.B.S. personnel were involved in formulating this plan, which has more holes than a sieve. As usual, the onboard service people are making the best of the situation & keeping it from getting as bad as it otherwise could get. I've never seen morale this low."

"So far the coffee is safe. Free water may be a future casualty. ALL fruit (bananas, apples, oranges) is supposed to be discontinued when current supplies run out"


----------



## sunchaser

boxcarsyix said:


> Just a side note concerning the Airline's cutting service. Just checked Delta Sacramento to Chicago in first class. The price is $650.00 im May. This compares with a roomette on the CZ at the same time. AFAIK first class on the airlines has not suffered the cuts that coach has. So we may need to compare apples to apples as far as amenites are concerned. (First class lounges, food, drinks, luggage, etc)


*We just recently booked a flight with Frontier, and paid extra for 'stretch seating', free checked baggage, carryons and includes free beverages and 1 free alcoholic beverage. I think what we need to remember is that Amtrak is similar to a hotel or bed and breakfast on wheels. So comparing prices should include not only meals & beverages, but 'hotel' costs. Most hotels provide free coffee/coffemaker, tolietries, etc. except for the very cheap ones. I know the hotel we use provides these things, and fresh fruit, too.*


----------



## Devil's Advocate

sunchaser said:


> I think what we need to remember is that Amtrak is similar to a hotel or bed and breakfast on wheels. So comparing prices should include not only meals & beverages, but 'hotel' costs. Most hotels provide free coffee/coffemaker, tolietries, etc. except for the very cheap ones. I know the hotel we use provides these things, and fresh fruit, too.[/b][/font][/size][/color]


If I fly I arrive at a hotel I can use as a base to go exploring other areas and sites besides the bedroom and the lobby. If I want to spend my vacation in the hotel itself then I would pick a destination resort. Amtrak isn't the kind of hotel you can leave for extended exploration and Amtrak isn't a resort either. So the idea that it should be compared to a hotel seems confusing to me. It's a hotel in the middle of nowhere that I'd never have to bother with if I were flying. Even back when I used to drive long distances it wasn't that hard to find a generic hotel for a lot less than Amtrak costs me today.


----------



## boxcarsyix

On board amenities in first class on the airlines includes meals at mealtime (if the flight is long enough) complimentary snacks, drinks (alchoholic as well as not) entertainment, WiFi, comfortable space, etc. This is Amtrak's competition. If it ends up that "Sleeper Class" means being stuffed in a roomette for the entire trip with no complementary beverage and no reasonable seat availability in the on board lounge, I think revenues will definately drop. My trips so far have been OK in terms of lounge space but twice was on the CS with the PPC (or an SSL) and the food service has been fine. I don't think the tablecloths and flowers are a critical element. I do agree with many here that much in the way of further cuts would not be good for business.


----------



## rrdude

afigg said:


> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore.
> 
> You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> +2
> I thought the purpose of a train service is to get one from one place to another in a reasonable degree of comfort, at an acceptable pace, and depending on one's financial status, at an affordable price. So far, the changes have been in the small stuff: wine & cheese tastings, flowers, loss of the sleeper lounge on the AT, changing the child's fare age limit, and so on. The LD trains are still running with sleeper and diner service. Much of what Amtrak is doing is following the path taken by the airlines over the last several decades; trimming amenities to reduce costs and employing a complex price structure designed to maximize revenue. Whether the airlines customers were happy about the changes or not, going very lean on service has kept the airlines in business and led to actual operating profits (for now).
> 
> So far, Amtrak has not taken it anywhere near as far as the airlines with much tighter seating in coach, charging extra for all checked bags, and so on. The airlines also have aggressively cut the number of domestic flights over the past 6-8 years to increase passenger loads on the remaining flights. Amtrak has not done that nor should it because there is no excess of daily service frequencies to cut. Whether there are more shoes to drop for the LD trains and the system as a whole, well, we shall see what happens in Congress this year.
Click to expand...

Spoken like true Rail Fans.................

Level of service means very little to you then, eh? Why not go X country in a commuter coach? Hey, it would be cheaper! No need for Service Attendants to clean the bathroom, or other duties that PAX could do.

Ya just don't get it..............

"John Q Traveling Public" certainly doesn't have the same level-of-expectation that I do when riding Amtrak, but they aren't gonna be happy with dirty cars, tardy trains, and crap food either. "John Q" could care less about a P-42, or a switch engine, he just wants to get there, reliably, and maybe cheaply. He probably doesn't care so much about flowers or tablecloths either. But some people do, especially the ones who pay the premium for sleeper class.

That's my beef with Amtrak. If you are gonna charge the rates they do, then provide something other than mediocre food, and "Denny's style" service....... No one is asking for a return to the days of silver service, bedtime turn-down, or shoes being polished. But Amtrak's current movement is going to chase away a few travelers, who expect _something, *anything*_, for the extra fare. Not just an average meal on a Formica table, served on plastic plates, and flat bed to lay down at night...........

Now, if they can keep the sleepers full, AND get rid of all the amenities, china, wine tasting, tablecloths, etc.?

Well, then they should. Because "why give something away for free, when you have more business than you can handle anyway?

I won't ride, but that won't make a lick of difference to Amtrak's bottom line. 'Cause someone else, either a foamer or an unwitting traveler, will *gladly* buy the sleeper that I have chosen not to buy.

No, the "ENTIRE THRILL" of riding a train is NOT the country-side, the inner-city, and what's OUTSIDE the window. If that were the case, Auto-Train would cease to exist. There is FAR MORE than just scenery, although for many, including me) that is a big *part.* The *service* I get, (or not), the *food*, I eat, and the *surroundings I consume that meal in, *(Table-mates, staff, "amenities" on table, entree choices, quality of food, cleanliness of windows, cleanliness of diner-in-general, quality of dining experience, time it took etc.,etc., ) all play a major role in my traveling experience.

I just don't get, (my fault, I admit) how some people could be happy curled up in a coach seat for days, staring out the window, eating their meals from the cooler they brought.

I'd rather listen to chalk-screeching on a blackboard, or have my eyes poked out with a dull stick than do that again. I've "been there - done that" as a youth/twenty-something.

So *when I pay the premium bucks for the sleeper service, I expect more. * Now that Amtrak is not giving me what I expect, I will complain, and travel other modes more frequently. You can say "my loss". Any you may be correct.

But I cannot, and will not, pay those bucks, and put up with the kind of service that seems to be in Amtrak's future. To each their own. The dumbing-down (and what many think of as "good service") of America continues..............


----------



## Allypet

rrdude said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore.
> 
> You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> +2
> I thought the purpose of a train service is to get one from one place to another in a reasonable degree of comfort, at an acceptable pace, and depending on one's financial status, at an affordable price. So far, the changes have been in the small stuff: wine & cheese tastings, flowers, loss of the sleeper lounge on the AT, changing the child's fare age limit, and so on. The LD trains are still running with sleeper and diner service. Much of what Amtrak is doing is following the path taken by the airlines over the last several decades; trimming amenities to reduce costs and employing a complex price structure designed to maximize revenue. Whether the airlines customers were happy about the changes or not, going very lean on service has kept the airlines in business and led to actual operating profits (for now).
> 
> So far, Amtrak has not taken it anywhere near as far as the airlines with much tighter seating in coach, charging extra for all checked bags, and so on. The airlines also have aggressively cut the number of domestic flights over the past 6-8 years to increase passenger loads on the remaining flights. Amtrak has not done that nor should it because there is no excess of daily service frequencies to cut. Whether there are more shoes to drop for the LD trains and the system as a whole, well, we shall see what happens in Congress this year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Spoken like true Rail Fans.................
> 
> Level of service means very little to you then, eh? Why not go X country in a commuter coach? Hey, it would be cheaper! No need for Service Attendants to clean the bathroom, or other duties that PAX could do.
> 
> Ya just don't get it..............
> 
> "John Q Traveling Public" certainly doesn't have the same level-of-expectation that I do when riding Amtrak, but they aren't gonna be happy with dirty cars, tardy trains, and crap food either. "John Q" could care less about a P-42, or a switch engine, he just wants to get there, reliably, and maybe cheaply. He probably doesn't care so much about flowers or tablecloths either. But some people do, especially the ones who pay the premium for sleeper class.
> 
> That's my beef with Amtrak. If you are gonna charge the rates they do, then provide something other than mediocre food, and "Denny's style" service....... No one is asking for a return to the days of silver service, bedtime turn-down, or shoes being polished. But Amtrak's current movement is going to chase away a few travelers, who expect _something, *anything*_, for the extra fare. Not just an average meal on a Formica table, served on plastic plates, and flat bed to lay down at night...........
> 
> Now, if they can keep the sleepers full, AND get rid of all the amenities, china, wine tasting, tablecloths, etc.?
> 
> Well, then they should. Because "why give something away for free, when you have more business than you can handle anyway?
> 
> I won't ride, but that won't make a lick of difference to Amtrak's bottom line. 'Cause someone else, either a foamer or an unwitting traveler, will *gladly* buy the sleeper that I have chosen not to buy.
> 
> No, the "ENTIRE THRILL" of riding a train is NOT the country-side, the inner-city, and what's OUTSIDE the window. If that were the case, Auto-Train would cease to exist. There is FAR MORE than just scenery, although for many, including me) that is a big *part.* The *service* I get, (or not), the *food*, I eat, and the *surroundings I consume that meal in, *(Table-mates, staff, "amenities" on table, entree choices, quality of food, cleanliness of windows, cleanliness of diner-in-general, quality of dining experience, time it took etc.,etc., ) all play a major role in my traveling experience.
> 
> I just don't get, (my fault, I admit) how some people could be happy curled up in a coach seat for days, staring out the window, eating their meals from the cooler they brought.
> 
> I'd rather listen to chalk-screeching on a blackboard, or have my eyes poked out with a dull stick than do that again. I've "been there - done that" as a youth/twenty-something.
> 
> So *when I pay the premium bucks for the sleeper service, I expect more. * Now that Amtrak is not giving me what I expect, I will complain, and travel other modes more frequently. You can say "my loss". Any you may be correct.
> 
> But I cannot, and will not, pay those bucks, and put up with the kind of service that seems to be in Amtrak's future. To each their own. The dumbing-down (and what many think of as "good service") of America continues..............
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. There are not enough foamers to keep Amtrak afloat. They need people like us!


----------



## Ryan

Ridership and revenue numbers suggest that they don't.

When they start going negative, then I'll start worrying. Until then this is nothing more than 27 pages of hot air.


----------



## SarahZ

RyanS said:


> Ridership and revenue numbers suggest that they don't.
> 
> When they start going negative, then I'll start worrying. Until then this is nothing more than 27 pages of hot air.


Precisely. I've been saying this for weeks. People can tease me and berate me and call me dumb/stupid all they want, but until the ridership numbers come in, nobody can say who's right and who's wrong.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

No listen dear lass, no facts or figures are a match for the exuberance of negative opinions that spring forth from the tortured existences of a grumpy crotchety old men.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SarahZ said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ridership and revenue numbers suggest that they don't.
> 
> When they start going negative, then I'll start worrying. Until then this is nothing more than 27 pages of hot air.
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely. I've been saying this for weeks. People can tease me and berate me and call me dumb/stupid all they want, but until the ridership numbers come in, nobody can say who's right and who's wrong.
Click to expand...

Persecution complex notwithstanding, I would caution against placing the success/failure criteria entirely on passenger numbers. I do not doubt that Amtrak will probably be able to maintain or perhaps even increase ridership over current levels (outside of deteriorating and dysfunctional routes such as the Empire Builder). Nonetheless I find it doubtful that such results will appease the anti-rail folks over the long term. If and when Amtrak is ready to hack and slash the current dining service into vending machines they may stand a real chance of putting the congressional attacks to rest. Although that may very well lead to a substantial drop in passengers thereafter. The bottom line is that we'll either have a lot more cuts coming down the pipe or we'll have gained zero protection from future congressional attacks. Pick your poison. The cuts that have occurred so far have accomplished absolutely nothing.


----------



## neroden

Allypet said:


> "I notice that the people who are most certain that this new plan will work, are mostly located far from A-T's route and probably have never ridden the train & probably never will. 90 min. per seating in the diner is a ludicrous plan, created by office-dwellers who have never worked on board.


This is ludicrous.



> It may become possible when salads are eliminated., which will happen soon when the job of the guy who makes the salads is eliminated (probably about a month from now, when jobs go up for re-bid).


This is insane. Salads are mandatory to get a balanced meal on Amtrak.
This is an attempt to eliminate food service, full stop. Thankfully Amtrak allows us to bring our own food on board. There's gonna be a *LOT* more of that going on, and the rooms and coaches are gonna need a lot more cleaning due to all the food scraps. The lounges will fill up with people bringing their own food and wanting a table, too.

Idiocy. They had better not expand this attack on food service to the other trains.



> Right now, veterans are looking at transfer options, possibly quitting altogether, retiring, or other options. Diner crews give up their own dinner break & STILL can't keep the 4 dinner seatings on time. The one lounge attendant is often overwhelmed.





> "So far the coffee is safe. Free water may be a future casualty.


Free water is mandatory, but the water in the sinks IS supposed to be potable water, so I guess they can't really get rid of free water even if they try.


----------



## neroden

RyanS said:


> Ridership and revenue numbers suggest that they don't.
> 
> When they start going negative, then I'll start worrying.


That will happen pretty fast on the Auto Train. A few months for people to notice the absurdly deteriorated service, then the ridership & revenue starts dropping.


----------



## rrdude

Green Maned Lion said:


> No listen dear lass, no facts or figures are a match for the exuberance of negative opinions that spring forth from the* tortured existences of a grumpy crotchety old men*.


Now I've been called out before, but never with such eloquence! Thank you GML, thank you, thank you, thank you.

I finally made it............

Luv you man................

Or as my dear friend, a very successful restaurateur often reminds me, "I can feed 'em s h i t, and they still keep packing the place......why should I change? (spend more or discount) ............... I don't eat here, and I never would, but I've built a successful, profitable restaurant............."


----------



## SarahZ

Devil's Advocate said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ridership and revenue numbers suggest that they don't.
> 
> When they start going negative, then I'll start worrying. Until then this is nothing more than 27 pages of hot air.
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely. I've been saying this for weeks. People can tease me and berate me and call me dumb/stupid all they want, but until the ridership numbers come in, nobody can say who's right and who's wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Persecution complex notwithstanding [...]
Click to expand...

I do not have a "persecution complex", but thanks for proving my point.


----------



## The Journalist

I was recently on the Silver Star WAS-CYN (Cary, NC) and ate dinner in the dining car. Had some rather excellent chicken. I can't say I cared, or noticed for that matter, what the tablecloth was made of or if there were flowers on the table. I paid with a credit card and the LSA had a Square-like mobile POS system, which was new to me-last time I used a diner they imprinted my card, which I had never seen before.

Someone mentioned salads...from my tomato-hating perspective the salads are entirely unnecessary, so dropping them-or at least making them a paid side?-wouldn't trouble me at all. But complementary dinner salads seem to be one of those things that practically every traditional restaurant does and seems well-received overall, my personal disinterest notwithstanding. Giving everyone a free salad weather they actually want one or not in a space- and time-constrained environment seems counterproductive.

So I guess I'd say my reaction to these "downgrades" ranges from "Makes sense" to "Eh, whatever."


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'm one of those who would have no problem if the less than OK Amsalads were dropped, they're terrible!

I did notice that on the Cardinal which is knocked by many for it's Diner Lite fare, that the lunch sandwiches were assembled by the double duty attendant and included sliced tomatoes and nice looking and tasting lettuce!

Perhaps salads could be offered, as was said, all la carte but made with better ingredients!


----------



## neroden

jimhudson said:


> Perhaps salads could be offered, as was said, all la carte but made with better ingredients!


I'd go for that!


----------



## JayPea

I could go for salads like that too. As far as the amenities that have been cut so far, to me, they don't mean much. I can understand how some folks might be upset, though. I enjoy train travel too much to sweat what is to me the small stuff. Now if there happen to be huge cuts like eliminating dining cars or sleepers altogether, then I'd rethink my position. Now the Autotrain cuts seem a bit drastic, on the other hand. I've never taken it but to an outsider the cuts seem ill-advised. I'd still like to take the AT sometime but for me the logistics would be difficult. As for the cuts over the years in airline travel, as far as I'm concerned losing those Gawdawful meals on the planes was an improvement. I've never flown overseas so have never spent more than 4 hours at a time on a plane. I'd much rather eat a good meal before boarding and a good meal during layovers in the airport.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

rrdude said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No listen dear lass, no facts or figures are a match for the exuberance of negative opinions that spring forth from the* tortured existences of a grumpy crotchety old men*.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I've been called out before, but never with such eloquence! Thank you GML, thank you, thank you, thank you.
> I finally made it............
> 
> Luv you man................
> 
> Or as my dear friend, a very successful restaurateur often reminds me, "I can feed 'em s h i t, and they still keep packing the place......why should I change? (spend more or discount) ............... I don't eat here, and I never would, but I've built a successful, profitable restaurant............."
Click to expand...

I gotta stop trying to be eloquent on my iphone. You know I luv u too, rrdude. Lol


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Listening to a phone conversation in Boardman's office, with Boardman on the phone... ???

"Count the beans!"

"What?"

"Retract!"

Now repeat, over and over and over again.

Until....

"Mica is still upset?"

"Okay, do away with ALL LD trains!"


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ridership and revenue numbers suggest that they don't.
> 
> When they start going negative, then I'll start worrying. Until then this is nothing more than 27 pages of hot air.
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely. I've been saying this for weeks. People can tease me and berate me and call me dumb/stupid all they want, but until the ridership numbers come in, nobody can say who's right and who's wrong.
Click to expand...

I do not think ridership numbers are the correct metric. Profit or (loss) numbers are. Most of the cuts are of small affect to coach riders (which I am one of nearly all the time) and those numbers have been climbing lately. So, maybe sleeper numbers are a bit more instructive, however, the bottom line is what will count. And not the next quarter's numbers, but perhaps year over year numbers for 2014 compared to 2013 (assuming no fare increases or "back door" increases like the "glitch" in the sleeper cost on the Amtrak.com site) Assuming the cost of the cut amenities, there should be a corresponding increase in profitability, correct?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SarahZ said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ridership and revenue numbers suggest that they don't.
> 
> When they start going negative, then I'll start worrying. Until then this is nothing more than 27 pages of hot air.
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely. I've been saying this for weeks. People can tease me and berate me and call me dumb/stupid all they want, but until the ridership numbers come in, nobody can say who's right and who's wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Persecution complex notwithstanding [...]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do not have a "persecution complex", but thanks for proving my point.
Click to expand...

When you're done with the martyr's playbook maybe you'll take the time to tell us what you think has been accomplished by these cuts. Do you think Congress is impressed enough to back off? Do you think these cuts will save enough money to balance the books? Or do you think that maybe these cuts only make political and financial sense if they're the first wave in a long list of changes still to come?


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Devil's Advocate said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have a "persecution complex", but thanks for proving my point.
> 
> 
> 
> When you're done with the martyr's playbook maybe you'll take the time to tell us what you think has been accomplished by these cuts. Do you think Congress is impressed enough to back off? Do you think these cuts will save enough money to balance the books? Or do you think that maybe these cuts only make political and financial sense if they're the first wave in a long list of changes still to come?
Click to expand...

1) They could be Amtrak's way of showing Congress that they are listening & are trying to "do something", even if they don't meet any/all of whatever goals Congress sets for them. Politics is often the art of pretending to do something while not really doing anything.

2) Maybe they're cutting the things that 99% of people won't care about (like flowers) in order to stave off cuts to things that people (like dining service) - a "sacrificial braised lamb shank".

3) They're hopefully gathering data on the cuts. Perhaps they can go back to Congress the next time they want Amtrak to cut something, and say "Look, last time you wanted us to cut Program A, and when we did we experienced a drop in revenue that was greater than the money we saved, thus proving that we shouldn't cut Program B, C, or D either."


----------



## neroden

D.P. Roberts said:


> 2) Maybe they're cutting the things that 99% of people won't care about (like flowers) in order to stave off cuts to things that people (like dining service) - a "sacrificial braised lamb shank".


I'd be down with that. But dammit, I need my greens with dinner! Doctor's orders!


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Maybe they're cutting the things that 99% of people won't care about (like flowers) in order to stave off cuts to things that people (like dining service) - a "sacrificial braised lamb shank".
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be down with that. But dammit, I need my greens with dinner! Doctor's orders!
Click to expand...

Salad might be the next cut, sorry. Maybe 99% don't care about salads.


----------



## greatcats

I too am a salad person, an integral part of a proper meal. The present versions are sorry. The dressings are pretty good.


----------



## yarrow

got off the cs yesterday. most amenities were still in place. spoke to the ppc attendant about the cuts and he said they were told it was the amenities cuts or the ppc would be gone. we were on the cs last month and were told the same thing by the ppc attendant


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Sorry I always thought the salad was for killing time into your meal was served.

I eat and enjoy a salad, but it just keeps you busy into the main dish shows up. Slower restaurants give you a roll and a salad.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Sorry I always thought the salad was for killing time into your meal was served.
> 
> I eat and enjoy a salad, but it just keeps you busy into the main dish shows up. Slower restaurants give you a roll and a salad.


I think you're right about this. The salad doesn't take up any time, as they're already sitting on the table when you get there. And you basically just eat it while you're waiting for your entree to arrive, so it doesn't really take up any meal time. However, there's the added expense of the food, plus somebody making it.

I'm not against salads altogether, although I rarely eat them. In every restaurant I can think of, salads don't automatically come with the meal - they're part of some dishes, but not part of others.

Here's a list of the top 100 restaurant chains in America http://nrn.com/us-top-100/top-100-chains-us-sales. I haven't been to all of them, but I've been to most of them, and I don't know of any that automatically serve a salad with every meal - I can spot two that MIGHT, but I can't remember whether they did or not.

So, clearly having a "free" salad is not something that most Americans expect with their meals.


----------



## Allypet

zepherdude said:


> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore.
> 
> You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.


So should this thread should be 28 pages of the same old late train pulling into the same old decrepit station? Or should we just discuss the same old trip, in the same old rail car, passing the same old tree, by the same old stream on the same old route at the same time of day? That my friend would get monotonous pretty quickly. We are just having a discussion, if you think it is not worth you time, then please just skip over it. Getting your panties in a bunch because a discussion is taking place is just downright crabby.


----------



## sechs

If Amtrak wants to knock $5 off the cost of meals and offer the salad separately, I think that would make sense as far as consumers are concerned, but not for Amtrak.


----------



## TraneMan

I pass on the salad.. I tell them not to bother of bringing a plate to me since I won't eat it and dn't want to waste it.


----------



## Ryan

Allypet said:


> zepherdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the entire thrill was riding the train and seeing the countryside. I thought the experience of the trip.the Rockies, the great Southwest, the inner cities and the back streets. Yet this entire thread is about stuff! Tablecloths, pickles and wine/cheese, salt and pepper shakers. Its all about stuff. Its not about the freedom of the rails anymore.
> 
> You guys want stuff, go stay at a high class hotel in NYC. You will get all your stuff and you will pay for. Amtrak looses gazillions of bucks, but as long as everyone gets their free stuff its Ok. I am 65 and do remember the good old RR days. Silver service, home cooked meals and plenty of stuff. Why did those days end? RRs could not afford the stuff, jet travel was that way, now they can no longer afford the stuff. Everyone needs to get a grip, nothing is free anymore. If you don't wish to ride Amtrak, then don't! Go elsewhere! Find a different train, one that gives plenty of free stuff! Just stop griping about stuff that ain't coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> So should this thread should be 28 pages of the same old late train pulling into the same old decrepit station? Or should we just discuss the same old trip, in the same old rail car, passing the same old tree, by the same old stream on the same old route at the same time of day? That my friend would get monotonous pretty quickly. We are just having a discussion, if you think it is not worth you time, then please just skip over it. Getting your panties in a bunch because a discussion is taking place is just downright crabby.
Click to expand...

God forbid someone have a dissenting opinion, right?


----------



## tim49424

TraneMan said:


> I pass on the salad.. I tell them not to bother of bringing a plate to me since I won't eat it and dn't want to waste it.


My sentiments exactly.....however, when travelling on the EB last summer with my mom, she ordered the salad only, for a couple of lunches.


----------



## amamba

tim54449 said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I pass on the salad.. I tell them not to bother of bringing a plate to me since I won't eat it and dn't want to waste it.
> 
> 
> 
> My sentiments exactly.....however, when travelling on the EB last summer with my mom, she ordered the salad only, for a couple of lunches.
Click to expand...

The lunch "entree" salad is generally bigger - it might have romaine - and has more other stuff than the side salad at dinner.


----------



## boxcarsyix

I like starting off with the salad and roll. The salad is not anything special, but it isn't all that bad.


----------



## tim49424

amamba said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I pass on the salad.. I tell them not to bother of bringing a plate to me since I won't eat it and dn't want to waste it.
> 
> 
> 
> My sentiments exactly.....however, when travelling on the EB last summer with my mom, she ordered the salad only, for a couple of lunches.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The lunch "entree" salad is generally bigger - it might have romaine - and has more other stuff than the side salad at dinner.
Click to expand...

I don't remember the "regular" salad but hers looked pretty big and she seemed to enjoy it, no complaints. I go through salad phases and neither of my LD trips on the EB caught me in the mood.


----------



## Lazy Z

All of that makes me sad! I like getting an amenity kit! I was looking forward to the wine and cheese, too


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Another poster posted a copy of this e-mail, but that thread got closed because this thread exists. So, in case anyone is interested, here's a copy of the e-mail that Amtrak is sending out to everyone who currently has a reservation on the EB, the CS, and the LSL:

"Dear Amtrak Sleeping Car Passenger,

In an effort to be good stewards of the federal funding received to operate our Amtrak service, a number of steps are being taken to eliminate losses in our Food and Beverage department over the next five years. Some of the changes being made to accomplish this include the discontinuation of select amenities on the _Coast Starlight_, _Empire Builder,_ and _Lake Shore Limited._

On or about March 31, 2014, the pre-departure refreshments and on-board wine and cheese tastings for Sleeping car passengers will no longer be offered on the _Coast Starlight_, _Empire Builder_, or _Lake Shore Limited_. Additionally, the complimentary sparkling wine, non-alcoholic cider, and chocolate squares will no longer be provided to Sleeping car passengers on the _Empire Builder_and the _Coast Starlight. _Sleeping car passengers will continue to receive all regular meals in the Dining car at no additional charge, and passengers may purchase cheese and cracker trays and other snacks, as well as liquor, wine and beer, in the Lounge car on all long- distance trains.

On approximately May 31, 2014, complimentary amenity kits will no longer be provided to sleeping car passengers on the _Empire Builder _and the _Coast Starlight_. Your Sleeping car attendant will continue to have select emergency toiletries on hand when needed.

While it is never easy to tell you, our valued customers, that we are eliminating some amenities, these changes are necessary in order to reduce costs, increase revenues and preserve passenger rail service across our country. If you have any questions or comments about these changes, feel free to contact me using the “contact us” link on the Amtrak.com home page.

Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage.

Sincerely,

Mark Murphy

General Manager, Long -Distance Services"


----------



## TVRM610

I wish threads would get merged instead of just locked... Amen?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TVRM610 said:


> I wish threads would get merged instead of just locked... Amen?


_Preach on Brother John! Halleluiah!_


----------



## MrFSS

Devil's Advocate said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish threads would get merged instead of just locked... Amen?
> 
> 
> 
> _Preach on Brother John! Halleluiah!_
Click to expand...

But then we have folks complain they can't find their post because they don't know it was merged into another thread. Sometimes we can't win!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MrFSS said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish threads would get merged instead of just locked... Amen?
> 
> 
> 
> _Preach on Brother John! Halleluiah!_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But then we have folks complain they can't find their post because they don't know it was merged into another thread. Sometimes we can't win!
Click to expand...

How about copying the new post/thread into the original thread before locking it with a link to the already active thread?


----------



## andersone

my sainted mother said the salad kept you regular,,,, have I been misled for all these decades?


----------



## TinCan782

Just received my, "Dear Amtrak Sleeping Car Passenger" email today like the one posted above.

Out of five LD round trips we've only received one "amenities kit" and that was on the SL/TE last summer which is not one of the routes mentioned in the email. I"m not sure I'm part of that problem, LOL!

Pre-departure refreshments? Never seen them either. I'm not a wine tasting person so, that wont be missed.

Oh well, I guess I'll make it through my upcoming trip!


----------



## greatcats

A few weeks ago following a roundtrip to Chicago I posted a letter in this thread that I had sent to Mr. Boardman, with a copy to various public officials. Today, I did receive a personal reply from Customer relations, from a Mr. Adam Bland. I am somewhat satisfied in that my letter was obviously paid some attention, and the reply was anything but a form letter. I don't expect them to restore all the amenities because of my letter, but I at least wanted them to take notice, which they to have done so, with a copy to Mr. Boardman. An explanation was given about the need to reduce expenses with vendors, and they are intent on " expediting repairs to equipment, rails, and right of way. Our progress thus far includes overhauls to sleepers, coaches, locomotives and track. " Well, that sounds good up to a point.

I had sent a separate Email from my hard copy letter saying never mind sending me a voucher. However, an apology was made for the failure of the toilets in my last sleeper on #3, and the letter included a voucher for $250. I do not intend to return it! Since I complained about the high fares in relation to the level of service, a discount is in order and I will use it later in the year.


----------



## VentureForth

D.P. Roberts said:


> Another poster posted a copy of this e-mail, but that thread got closed because this thread exists. So, in case anyone is interested, here's a copy of the e-mail that Amtrak is sending out to everyone who currently has a reservation on the EB, the CS, and the LSL:
> 
> "Dear Amtrak Sleeping Car Passenger,
> 
> ...
> 
> While it is never easy to tell you, our valued customers, that we are eliminating some amenities, these changes are necessary in order to reduce costs, *increase revenues* and preserve passenger rail service across our country...."


I don't see how eliminating amenities increases revenue.


----------



## haolerider

It is a real stretch to look at increasing revenues,, by eliminating amenities, unless you are looking at actual bottom line figures! The small costs involved in eliminating flowers, wine & cheese, amenity kits, etc., cannot give bottom line revenue much of a boost. It has been suggested that this is the first round of cuts and initially I was not in that camp, but I am now somewhat suspicious! The Food & Beverage group has been using cele ritzy chefs to bring a different feel to the menus, but it may be that the variety of menu changes will be decreased and move toward a more standardized menu with only seasonal changes.


----------



## JayPea

I've gotten that same e-mail four times now. They must want to make sure I've gotten the message.


----------



## SarahZ

JayPea said:


> I've gotten that same e-mail four times now. They must want to make sure I've gotten the message.


Is your reservation broken up into four segments? I ask only because the computer might be emailing each reservation, not by email address.


----------



## JayPea

SarahZ said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've gotten that same e-mail four times now. They must want to make sure I've gotten the message.
> 
> 
> 
> Is your reservation broken up into four segments? I ask only because the computer might be emailing each reservation, not by email address.
Click to expand...

That must be it. I have two trips planned for this summer with multiple segments, both coach and sleeper. The sleeper segments total four, so that must be the case.


----------



## boxcarsyix

haolerider said:


> It is a real stretch to look at increasing revenues,, by eliminating amenities, unless you are looking at actual bottom line figures! The small costs involved in eliminating flowers, wine & cheese, amenity kits, etc., cannot give bottom line revenue much of a boost. It has been suggested that this is the first round of cuts and initially I was not in that camp, but I am now somewhat suspicious! The Food & Beverage group has been using cele ritzy chefs to bring a different feel to the menus, but it may be that the variety of menu changes will be decreased and move toward a more standardized menu with only seasonal changes.


That "move" (standardized menu) has already happened. CZ, CS, SWC all have the same menu. Don't know about the other trains. This will make my May trip a little more boring (at least in the Diner)


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Now I know where our amenities have gone! 

From Progressive Railroading:



> A final and binding arbitration ruling issued Tuesday will raise wages an average of 3.1 percent annually for Amtrak maintenance-of-way employees, the Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employes Division (BMWED) announced yesterday.
> 
> The wage increases are retroactive to Jan. 1, 2010. In addition, back wages will be paid to all qualified union members, active or retired, BMWED officials said in a press release.
> 
> A panel of three arbitrators rendered the decision, which was negotiated by the Passenger Rail Labor Bargaining Coalition, a collaboration of the BMWED and Brotherhood of Railroad Signalman


----------



## tim49424

JayPea said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've gotten that same e-mail four times now. They must want to make sure I've gotten the message.
> 
> 
> 
> Is your reservation broken up into four segments? I ask only because the computer might be emailing each reservation, not by email address.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That must be it. I have two trips planned for this summer with multiple segments, both coach and sleeper. The sleeper segments total four, so that must be the case.
Click to expand...

My mom received four emails as well. We have four segments, involving sleepers, for our trip at the end of July. CHI-PDX (two different reservations), PDX-SAC and SAC-CHI. (Also two segments on the Wolverine, from and to KAL).


----------



## D.P. Roberts

I have an 8-segment trip coming up, 5 segments of which are on the affected routes, and I got 5 e-mails, so that's definitely the case.


----------



## yarrow

one "amenity" amtrak can deep six is the wi-fi in the ppc. have taken 3 trips with use of the ppc this year(pdx-lax rt, pdx-sac rt, pdx-emy). had working wi-fi for a few hours on one leg of one trip and that was it. had about the same batting average on a couple trips with the ppc last year. doesn't greyhound have wi-fi on buses now?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I suggest that we require a reasonable level of knowledge before people start to judge programs. Anything heard on the news services is inaccurate. About anything. I don't care which news service. Its inaccurate. Don't read it.

Congress does need to get its own house in order. It needs to actually start having a clue about what goes on in this country. It needs to be able to explain its actions in a way that indicates it even knows what its voting on. It needs to be able to explain to American Citizens the difference between welfare and welfare fraud, for instance. It needs to explain how much of the waste in this country does not involve giving ordinary citizens anything, but instead giving money to political backers.

Hearing most people talk about politics makes me sick. Its one thing to have a differing opinion. Its another thing to have an opinion based on nonsense, poppycock, and non-truths. It is a fair debate to, for instance, argue about whether or not the government should be subsidizing food service on trains, knowing the numbers that the informed people around here know. Its another thing when people start talking about how the government could buy each Amtrak passenger a first class airline ticket and still save money. Which is about as inane as most of the non-Amtrak related politics I hear around here.

I mean, if you don't have a really strong firm grasp on politics, I mean really firm, could talk about the subject and NEVER worry you are going to be smashed into the floor by somebody who actually knows something, then remember the following quote: "It is better to keep quiet, and be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


----------



## jis

I really wish that the elimination of amenities were balanced by positive action on a PIP or two. I think that would at least minimize the perception being created.

But either way it remains a fact that there will be a battle royale for LD funding this year. The groundwork for it had really been laid in PRIIA with the partitioning of the action plan for the whole system into three sections: 209, 210 and 212. 210 had the least detail about funding, or any action to resolve shortcomings, other than to do the PIPs, as in put together the reports, with no further promise of funding or action to do anything about them. Both Section 209 and 212 were much more prescriptive about what needs to be done regarding funding. Now those cows are coming home to moo.


----------



## Northeastern292

jis said:


> I really wish that the elimination of amenities were balanced by positive action on a PIP or two. I think that would at least minimize the perception being created.
> 
> But either way it remains a fact that there will be a battle royale for LD funding this year. The groundwork for it had really been laid in PRIIA with the partitioning of the action plan for the whole system into three sections: 209, 210 and 212. 210 had the least detail about funding, or any action to resolve shortcomings, other than to do the PIPs, as in put together the reports, with no further promise of funding or action to do anything about them. Both Section 209 and 212 were much more prescriptive about what needs to be done regarding funding. Now those cows are coming home to moo.


Let's not forget my generation wants a national rail network.


----------



## Ryan

Unfortunately, we aren't calling the shots.

Yet.


----------



## SarahZ

Considering fewer and fewer teens and twentysomethings are getting drivers' licenses (1)(2), the uptick in demand for a good bus/rail network isn't surprising. We just have to get Congress to listen.

(1) http://www.freep.com/article/20120721/BUSINESS01/207210417/Fewer-American-teens-getting-their-driver-s-licenses-U-M-study-finds

(2) http://www.wnyc.org/story/286723-percentage-of-young-persons-with-a-drivers-license-continues-to-drop/


----------



## rrdude

Email response, back from Amtrak Cust/Service. Filled out on web, from link that the "........We hate to tell you we are cutting amenities.........." email.

Dear Jerry Pilcher,

Thank you for contacting us regarding changes to Auto Train amenities.

We apologize that it has taken longer than expected for us to reply. We have had an unusually high number of e-mail requests. Your patience is appreciated.

We appreciate your comments regarding our service. Your feedback is valuable to us and has been forwarded to the appropriate department to handle your concerns.

Thank you for taking the time to write to us.

sincerely,


----------



## yarrow

rrdude said:


> Email response, back from Amtrak Cust/Service. Filled out on web, from link that the "........We hate to tell you we are cutting amenities.........." email.
> 
> Dear Jerry Pilcher,
> 
> Thank you for contacting us regarding changes to Auto Train amenities.
> 
> We apologize that it has taken longer than expected for us to reply. We have had an unusually high number of e-mail requests. Your patience is appreciated.
> 
> We appreciate your comments regarding our service. Your feedback is valuable to us and has been forwarded to the appropriate department to handle your concerns.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write to us.
> 
> sincerely,


sweet


----------



## Guest

Eliminate flowers off the diner tables? AU's homepage image will be a reminder of the 'old days.'


----------



## tonys96

Green Maned Lion said:


> I suggest that we require a reasonable level of knowledge before people start to judge programs. Anything heard on the news services is inaccurate. About anything. I don't care which news service. Its inaccurate. Don't read it."


Yes, all news media is inaccurate, don't read it. Just believe what is here on AU!


----------



## CHamilton

There is an excellent article in the July 2014 issue of Trains magazine that details the amenities cuts as applied to the Coast Starlight.


----------



## M

CHamilton said:


> There is an excellent article in the July 2014 issue of Trains magazine that details the amenities cuts as applied to the Coast Starlight.


Any hope of posting a quick rundown here for those of us who don't get Trains magazine and none of the local bookstores/newsstands carry it?


----------



## Paulus

M said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is an excellent article in the July 2014 issue of Trains magazine that details the amenities cuts as applied to the Coast Starlight.
> 
> 
> 
> Any hope of posting a quick rundown here for those of us who don't get Trains magazine and none of the local bookstores/newsstands carry it?
Click to expand...

You can get it on iOS  (waiting for mine to come in the mail)


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> But either way it remains a fact that there will be a battle royale for LD funding this year.


Again, these trains are not like one another. And I really wish someone in power would recognize this.

Avoidable-cost accounting is an appropriate metric for whether service cuts have a chance of actually improving the bottom line. It actually slightly underestimates the value of particular services because service cuts cause loss of connections, which causes cascading losses in ridership and revenues. Anyway, when Amtrak released "direct-cost" accounting numbers for the so-called long-distance trains, we saw that the Palmetto and Silver Meteor contributed to the bottom line, the Auto Train broke even, and the Lake Shore Limited was close enough to breaking even. The City of New Orleans, Capitol Limited, and Silver Star each cost about $5 million to run. The Silver Service as a whole (Star, Meteor, Palmetto) broke even.

The Cardinal also cost about $5 million/year net to run. The PIP tells us that the Cardinal would be more like $7.5 million if it ran daily (with basically no other improvements). It obviously needs a lot of other improvements, particularly from Indianapolis to Chicago. Even a dorm car should boost sleeper revenue massively.

The Crescent costs about $7.5 million net. Given ridership patterns, I strongly suspect that a potential profit from NY-Atlanta is disguised by a loss from Atlanta to New Orleans; in the PIP, cutoff cars were expected to improve the bottom line by $1.5 million! The PIP's "reduced sleeper car staffing" proposal was expected to improve the bottom line by $1.1 million; the dorm cars should therefore improve the bottom line by something similar.

These both have major potential *if* improved.

To repeat:

---------

Florida services as a whole (Star, Meteor, Palmetto, Auto Train) break even and therefore don't need funding for anything but overhead, which Amtrak has to fund somehow anyway.

The LSL costs roughly $2 million to run and the Capitol Limited $5 million; this is peanuts. If these two NEC-Chicago connectors were removed, the lost revenue from connecting "corridor" and Florida trains alone would probably exceed that.

The core Florida-NEC-Chicago network needs to stay intact and its incremental cost to operate is pretty much $0.

Adding the CONO and Crescent to the core Florida-NEC-Chicago network costs $10 million. Adding the Cardinal as well brings the total costs to $15 million/year, or $17.5 million with a daily Cardinal. So that's roughly the net avoidable cost of the eastern long-distance network.

Some will say that cancelling multiple eastern trains at once would have economies of scale, which is true; but this cost isn't much either. The stations which are shared by the CL/LSL and nothing else amount to 3 staffed, 4 unstaffed. The stations shared by two or more of the Star/Meteor/Palmetto but nothing else (counting Sunrail and TriRail as something else) are 7 staffed, 3 unstaffed -- a bit more, but still not much. The Crescent and CONO have one such station: New Orleans. The Cardinal has none. Apart from these shared stations, any train discontinuations will merely increase the costs charged to the states for the stations used on corridor and commuter trains. Cost of maintenance facilities is basically fixed.

The finances of all these eastern trains will improve due to already-committed projects. The new Viewliners; the new locomotives on the NEC; station and track improvements in upstate NY; track improvements in North Carolina and Virginia; Englewood Flyover; double-tracking due to Sunrail; track improvements by the MBTA in Massachusetts. Illnois, Virginia, and Vermont are actively developing corridor routes which will generate yet more connecting traffic. Plans being actively pursued by states would cause further route operations improvements: specifically the NY, VA, NC, and MI ("South of the Lake") HSR plans. There is yet more potential for fairly quick improvements: a new Atlanta station allowing cut-off cars would improve the Crescent's financial performance by a lot immediately; almost any track improvement between Indianapolis and Chicago would do wonders for the Cardinal; implementation of the PIPs would improve the LSL and Capitol Limited.

Furthermore, the population patterns demand train service: Ohio, for example, is denser than France, and eventually hopefully it will regain a government which understands this.

It is worth noting that Boardman's warning in his presentation of March 2013 was of an Amtrak system without *western* Long-Distance services. If there is any sense in the Amtrak administration (and I don't know if there is), the battle royale should be entirely over west-of-Chicago service funding.

I've discussed the six western services before and will do so again some other time, but that's not my point right now. My point is:

Cuts to the eastern services are *plain dumb*.


----------



## philabos

Interesting post.

Some time ago I calculated that about 50% of Amtrak passengers ride in the area north of Richmond and east of Buffalo and Pittsburgh and that excludes passengers on the LD Eastern trains and the silvers. The area described is about 6% of the US continental land mass.

Geography and population density have much to do with volume. A railroad needs more than volume to succeed, but cannot succeed without volume.


----------



## crescent2

Yes, very interesting post. Can you provide a link to your discussion of the western LD trains?


----------



## neroden

I'm afraid my discussion of the western trains was much more fragmented and less coherent, and not all in one place.


----------



## M

Paulus said:


> M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is an excellent article in the July 2014 issue of Trains magazine that details the amenities cuts as applied to the Coast Starlight.
> 
> 
> 
> Any hope of posting a quick rundown here for those of us who don't get Trains magazine and none of the local bookstores/newsstands carry it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can get it on iOS  (waiting for mine to come in the mail)
Click to expand...

And if we also don't have a smartphone and therefore can't use apps?


----------



## Paulus

M said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is an excellent article in the July 2014 issue of Trains magazine that details the amenities cuts as applied to the Coast Starlight.
> 
> 
> 
> Any hope of posting a quick rundown here for those of us who don't get Trains magazine and none of the local bookstores/newsstands carry it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can get it on iOS  (waiting for mine to come in the mail)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And if we also don't have a smartphone and therefore can't use apps?
Click to expand...

iPad. Or digital download from their site. Or wait till it shows in my mail


----------



## D.P. Roberts

M said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is an excellent article in the July 2014 issue of Trains magazine that details the amenities cuts as applied to the Coast Starlight.
> 
> 
> 
> Any hope of posting a quick rundown here for those of us who don't get Trains magazine and none of the local bookstores/newsstands carry it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can get it on iOS  (waiting for mine to come in the mail)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And if we also don't have a smartphone and therefore can't use apps?
Click to expand...

http://trn.trains.com/digitaleditions


----------



## Paul Dow

I read through this thread, and didn't see any actual reports about the eastbound Lake Shore.

Is the sleeper boarding procedure now just to get on the train at 9:15 PM? Oops, I almost forgot. I was writing about the Lake Shore.

Is the sleeper boarding procedure now just to get on the train at 11:15 PM?

At least I'll be on the section to Massachusetts on my planned trip, so I'll get dinner.

They could save a lot more money by not publishing schedules. The trains don't pay attention to them anyway.


----------



## jis

Paul Dow said:


> I read through this thread, and didn't see any actual reports about the eastbound Lake Shore.
> 
> Is the sleeper boarding procedure now just to get on the train at 9:15 PM? Oops, I almost forgot. I was writing about the Lake Shore.
> 
> Is the sleeper boarding procedure now just to get on the train at 11:15 PM?
> 
> At least I'll be on the section to Massachusetts on my planned trip, so I'll get dinner.
> 
> They could save a lot more money by not publishing schedules. The trains don't pay attention to them anyway.


The problem of "trains not paying attention to schedules" applies mostly to just the LD network, which is a minority of trains run by Amtrak. Most corridors where by numbers most trains are, do adhere to schedules quite nicely most of the time.


----------



## philabos

I live on the Keystone line and in the last 6 years have been late once averaging 12 trips per year.

Service is very reliable.


----------



## [email protected]

I recently took the northbound Silver Star from Ft Lauderdale and Amtrak has a lot of problems to deal with in the dining car besides the flowers on the table. But really, how much could fake flowers in a vase cost? Hell, send someone to the Dollar Store and the problem is solved. For a little class, buy some extra ones for the washrooms too! $30 should do it.

Hopefully, the Lake Shore will move to an earlier eastbound departure soon.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Excellent idea,faux flowers for the diner, bathrooms, cafe and coffee/ juice stand in the sleeps would be a classy move but of course the "Financial Excellence" Bean Counters wouldn't approve spending the pocket change it would take!


----------



## I always rode the Southern

[email protected] said:


> I recently took the northbound Silver Star from Ft Lauderdale and Amtrak has a lot of problems to deal with in the dining car besides the flowers on the table. But really, how much could fake flowers in a vase cost? Hell, send someone to the Dollar Store and the problem is solved. For a little class, buy some extra ones for the washrooms too! $30 should do it.


Someone did. Michelle was the LSA on our southbound star trip at the beginning of May, and had purchased flowers/vases for the diner herself. They were nicer than the original ones amtrak had.


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## Devil's Advocate

I always rode the Southern said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recently took the northbound Silver Star from Ft Lauderdale and Amtrak has a lot of problems to deal with in the dining car besides the flowers on the table. But really, how much could fake flowers in a vase cost? Hell, send someone to the Dollar Store and the problem is solved. For a little class, buy some extra ones for the washrooms too! $30 should do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone did. Michelle was the LSA on our southbound star trip at the beginning of May, and had purchased flowers/vases for the diner herself. They were nicer than the original ones amtrak had.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a smart move to me. The more Amtrak diners revert to their generic fiberglass and vinyl cores the more they risk subconciously aligning with diner level tipping. About half of my tip is a conscious decision based on the quality of the meal and the service but the other half is partially an emotional reaction. If I felt like I just dined in a rolling McDonalds then my tips are likely to suffer, even if the staff was top notch.


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## oregon pioneer

I always rode the Southern said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recently took the northbound Silver Star from Ft Lauderdale and Amtrak has a lot of problems to deal with in the dining car besides the flowers on the table. But really, how much could fake flowers in a vase cost? Hell, send someone to the Dollar Store and the problem is solved. For a little class, buy some extra ones for the washrooms too! $30 should do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone did. Michelle was the LSA on our southbound star trip at the beginning of May, and had purchased flowers/vases for the diner herself. They were nicer than the original ones amtrak had.
Click to expand...

Poor Michelle probably has to pack them all up and take them off the train at the end of the trip! I watched Charles in the PDX sleeper do that with the stuff he bought on to make everything nice for his pax. But good for Michelle anyway, it probably does help with the tips for the crew.


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## I always rode the Southern

All the OBS we encountered were trying really hard to do what they could to alleviate the loss most of us were feeling. Kumar, our SCA had little Kit Kat Bars, both white and dark chocolate in the rooms. I really admired both the crew of the northbound auto train and southbound star(no car coming home) for their efforts.


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## Anderson

Good posts, Nathanael and philabos.

A couple of thoughts:
(1) There is a big chicken-and-egg problem with service in various areas. The question of whether ridership begets service or service begets ridership is not an easy one to answer in a lot of cases. For a good example, look at Virginia over the last decade or so: Regional ridership in VA was 446k in FY09. By FY13, it was about 892k (or almost exactly double four years earlier). In that interim, service only increased by 50% (there were four Regionals in FY09 vs. six in FY13). This was not exactly a service-starved area, either, yet a modest increase in service triggered a surge in ridership. The same phenomenon occurred in North Carolina when a second Piedmont was added. Ditto the Illini/Saluki
-It is probably telling that every private-sector proposal for rail service which I see proposes, when unconstrained in frequencies, high-frequency service. AAF wants to run more-or-less hourly service from Miami to Orlando, and Iowa Pacific's proposal for Tulsa-Oklahoma City service kicks off with something like 5-6 daily frequencies.
-There's also the fact that even Amtrak's own report suggests that adding a single daily NCH to the LD system would add several hundred thousand riders to the system. IIRC, adding that one train would add close to 10% to LD ridership.

So with all of this in mind, it is quite arguable that there's so much of Amtrak's ridership in the Northeast simply because there happen to be trains there. The other point is that service there is fast...Regionals seem to average 55-60 MPH in most of the region. By comparison, the Surfliners (the largest non-NEC service) average about 45 MPH LAX-SAN and 40 MPH SLO-LAX. Regardless of the reasons for this, the fact is that faster trains will rack up ridership. As a serious question, if the Superliners were covering LAX-SAN in 2:15 instead of 2:45, does anyone want to take a stab at how much ridership could be added?

(2) The Eastern LD trains really, really need more equipment. When you look at the LSL, the Silvers, and the Crescent north of ATL, all three regularly run into capacity jams in the summer. This is even with exceedingly expensive fares (a roomette for one can run close to $600 at top bucket). The Capitol Limited also runs into frequent capacity issues on the sleeper side as well (Amtrak apparently once produced a report showing that adding an additional sleeping car for part of the year would improve the bottom line by something like $500k), and let's not even get started on the Auto Train.
-As a sub-point, a daily Cardinal could probably support an extra coach or two per train. You might well be able to support a Silver Star-sized consist (2 sleepers, 4 coaches) on the route on a daily basis, something that would probably reduce the projected losses.
-There is probably a substantial case for adding frequencies (and/or routes) to part or all of the Eastern LD system. A number of major cities have badly-timed train service (Ohio suffers from this, with lots of late-night service and not much during daylight) while others lack service at all (Dayton, Columbus, etc.). You could probably close to double service in the East without doubling losses in the East, especially since increased frequencies would allow some trips which would otherwise be awkward/inconvenient on one leg or another. Increased frequency equals increased convenience, which tends to equal increased ridership.
--You even have examples of this in Virginia. Service to Lynchburg (and to a lesser extent Charlottesville) is presently set up so that if you're spending the weekend there, you have to lose almost all of Sunday because the trains leave in the morning. In Hampton Roads, things are a bit better because of train 83 (there's a reason this train runs), but trying to get into Hampton Roads in the morning is still impossible (67 gets inot NPN at 1150).

(3) Cuts on either side of Chicago present serious problems. East of Chicago, the problems stem from the trains not losing much money to begin with (and with those losses being controllable). West of Chicago, the problem is more political: There are a lot of Senators and Representatives willing to protect "their train" but who, if deprived of service, will turn on Amtrak writ large.


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> (2) The Eastern LD trains really, really need more equipment.


Well, I see one relatively short-term solution for this. As the new bilevels come into service, a lot of Horizons and a few Amfleet Is will be freed up. The Amfleet Is will probably sink into Virginia service immediately.

The Horizons, however, should be converted to Amfleet II long-distance "recliner" seating, have their lighting (which everyone hates) replaced, and be used to add capacity to the Eastern LD trains. 79 coaches should be enough to add a coach to every overnight train (17), run the Cardinal daily (4), run the Capitol-Pennsy through cars (2), make the Palmetto all-LD-seating (2), re-extend it as the Silver Palm, albeit wihout sleepers (8), and add 20% spares to the newly expanded LD running fleet (31), with some left over.

Of course, at this point the LSL is getting too long and will have to be made into two trains. That's OK. 



> -There is probably a substantial case for adding frequencies (and/or routes) to part or all of the Eastern LD system.


Oh yeah.


> A number of major cities have badly-timed train service (Ohio suffers from this, with lots of late-night service and not much during daylight) while others lack service at all (Dayton, Columbus, etc.). You could probably close to double service in the East without doubling losses in the East, especially since increased frequencies would allow some trips which would otherwise be awkward/inconvenient on one leg or another. Increased frequency equals increased convenience, which tends to equal increased ridership.


Yep. One example is the Cardinal, where I have repeatedly tried to plot out a trip to Indianapolis and I just can't make it work out right because of the less-than-daily frequency from the east. Another example is Columbus, where I would likely go to a convention yearly if I could get there by train, but instead I don't go at all. There's also the missing service from Michigan eastward -- I know there's a bus to Toledo, but nobody wants to change to a bus at 1 AM.



> --You even have examples of this in Virginia. Service to Lynchburg (and to a lesser extent Charlottesville) is presently set up so that if you're spending the weekend there, you have to lose almost all of Sunday because the trains leave in the morning. In Hampton Roads, things are a bit better because of train 83 (there's a reason this train runs), but trying to get into Hampton Roads in the morning is still impossible (67 gets inot NPN at 1150).


Yep. Evening departure / morning arrivals are needed in these places.



> (3) Cuts on either side of Chicago present serious problems. East of Chicago, the problems stem from the trains not losing much money to begin with (and with those losses being controllable). West of Chicago, the problem is more political: There are a lot of Senators and Representatives willing to protect "their train" but who, if deprived of service, will turn on Amtrak writ large.


Perhaps it is time for the latest revision of my "six Amtrak long distance trains west of Chicago" essay.
The political situation (my analysis which may be wrong in places):


The Empire Builder has heavy political support. Montana and North Dakota Senators and Representatives are big Amtrak supporters, as are Congresspeople from Minnesota, and until recently, also Wisconsin.
The California Zephyr attracts strong Amtrak political support from Nevada and Colorado, but not so much from Utah, Nebraska, or Iowa.
The Southwest Chief attracts solid political support in the part of Arizona it goes through (Grand Canyon/Flagstaff), and strong support in New Mexico, and a surprising amount of support from Colorado, but truly weak support in Kansas; Amtrak gets more support from the Congressmen on the Amarillo-Wichita route. I do not think it would create a backlash in Colorado if service was lost, since the CZ is much more important to the state, and there is no Representative who supports Amtrak who represents a "SWC only" district (I checked this recently). There is strong support in Missouri.
The Sunset Limited seems to attracts very little political support for Amtrak, except in Louisiana and Texas east of Houston. West of there, there are Representatives who vote for Amtrak, but it's strict party-line voting in this region (Democrats for Amtrak, Republicans against, regardless of service).
The Texas Eagle attracts solid Amtrak support along its entire route and is the only Amtrak train in the districts for most of its run.
The Coast Starlight goes through districts of strong Amtrak support for practically its entire distance, and all three states are big Amtrak supporters. However, would any of these Representatives turn on Amtrak if it was cancelled? Probably not; Washington, Oregon, and California support a lot of Amtrak corridor serivce. OR-2 and CA-1 are only served by the Coast Starlight, but the other Congressional districts the CS goes through are all served by other Amtrak trains.
Bear this political analysis in mind as you read the rest of this.
Three of the routes have a "mountain problem". The Empire Builder, Coast Starlight, and California Zephyr have to cross big mountains, and they do so *slowly*. Airplanes just go straight over the mountains. The time advantage of flying can be beaten by the comfort of a train from Chicago to Denver, at high speed on flat land; it's much harder to beat it when crawling over the Rockies or the Cascades. The Southwest Chief has a lesser version of this problem at Raton Pass (would be fixed by going via Amarillo and Wichita...)
All of the double-overnight routes have severe timekeeping problems, the least problematic being the SW Chief which is all on one host railroad. This is because "trouble begets trouble"; if you hit trouble out of the gate, recovery time is two days away. I doubt that double-overnights are actually a good idea. (The Coast Starlight, and Texas Eagle not counting the through cars, are single-overnight routes.)
The Coast Starlight takes the wrong route through southern Oregon; it should stop at Medford, although this would require the state of Oregon to spend a lot on track upgrades.
The Coast Starlight connects three regions (Southern California, Northern California, Pacific Northwest) which are extremely supportive of passenger train service and whose demographics are more favorable to passenger trains than average; and it's the only service serving the Salinas region as well, which should be fertile ground. And it's actually a single-overnight train. The CS really should be doing better, and I'm not sure why it isn't. Maybe it's just too slow, due to those mountains.
The Texas Eagle has only two problems: it's too slow and too unreliable. There's plenty of online population and it's close enough together and it's a single-overnight; it's a route with great potential. It's just too slow. The extremely high speeds and enormous numbers of lanes of the highways in the area don't help.
Assume that the current Empire Builder mess is fixed eventually. MSP-Chicago still needs its own train for timekeeping reasons if nothing else. So does Spokane-Seattle. Both would improve ridership on the Empire Builder by providing multiple frequencies per day.
Montana really would like a train which stopped at its major cities, and it should have one; unfortunately it hasn't been willing to pay for it. Similarly, I'd go to Bismarck if it had a train (I have friends there). The North Coast Hiawatha would probably do as well as the Empire Builder... trouble is that still requires a substantial subsidy.
The California Zephyr is suboptimal and should be several separate trains; see below. This won't be possible unless Colorado puts money in, though.
The Southwest Chief takes the wrong route from Albuquerque to Newton KS; the Wichita-Amarillo route not only has more online population and uses less fuel, it's also got more Amtrak political supporters along it. Really.
The Heartland Flyer should connect to the SW Chief at Wichita. I think this is the best which can be done here. With well-timed connections, this would actually provide faster Dallas-LA service than the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited currently does!
If we are trying to provide network connectivity with the transcons, the SW Chief is the most important; it is the fastest, requires the fewest trainsets, and it connects the 2nd largest conurbation in the US (Los Angeles) with the 3rd largest (Chicago). When the ocean liner market dried up, the survivor was NY-London, between the two strongest markets. Likewise, the "will not fly" market in the US is going to be strongest in the NY-Chicago, NY-LA, and LA-Chicago markets; this is already apparent in the solid ridership from NY-Chicago.
The Sunset Limited has a lot of problems.
The first Sunset Limited problem is of course the three-a-week running, which is no good.
The second Sunset Limited problem is that it doesn't stop at Phoenix; if the Arizona state government supported train service and purchased the tracks, this section would have great potential, but as-is with a hostile Arizona government, it seems hopeless.
The third problem is the vast emptiness between El Paso and San Antonio; this has no potential whatsoever. The Sunset Limited takes approximately the worst possible route through Texas.
The fourth problem is the emptiness between San Antonio and Houston, though at least that's short.
If we had to lose a long distance train due to budget cuts, I really wouldn't miss the Sunset Limited in its current form.
A daily LA-Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso train would be quite viable.
A daily Houston - New Orleans train would probably be pretty successful.
Texas could really use a Dallas-Houston route.
Texas in general has lots of potential and just isn't being served properly.
So, I think that double-overnights are a bad idea. But where would you split them? It's not really possible for the SW Chief, Empire Builder, or Sunset Limited; none of them have a logical or appropriate place to change trains, since well over half the passengers are continuing through any given point and there aren't any midpoint cities suitable for layovers.
In the case of the California Zephyr, however, it's obvious: change trains at Denver. Half the train empties at Denver in each direction anyway. It's quite a decent place to change trains now. Amtrak would have to reserve hotel rooms in the immediate vicinity for missed connections, but there are going to be a huge number of hotel rooms in the immediate vicinity. (There's a reason the old railroads built and operated their own hotels at train stations, and it wasn't just profit: it makes it much easier for them to handle train delays.) Splitting the train at Denver would simplify the timekeeping problem substantially by keeping each train on a single host from end to end (UP west of Denver, BNSF east of Denver). For the bean counters, this would also eliminate two meal services -- but there's multiple good restaurants available at Denver Union Station, so it would be OK for the passengers. This would be better if some servicing were available in in Denver, but frankly, that's a good idea anyway...

If the timekeeping is more reliable, the ridership on both legs should rise. If it were possible to cut off cars in Reno/Sparks, it would also be possible to better align consists with demand.

A Denver hub has a lot of potential. If Colorado suddenly decided to put in a lot of money, my fantasy plan would involve:

- 2/day Denver-Chicago

- 1/day Denver-Grand Junction

- more/day Denver-Glenwood Springs

- 1/day Denver-Greeley-Cheyenne-Laramie-Salt Lake-Reno-Oakland

- several/day Denver-Boulder-Ft Collins-Cheyenne

- several/day Denver-Colorado Springs-Pueblo

- 1/day Denver-Pueblo-Albuquerque

Not likely, sadly. But a Denver hub might be the best way to deal with the train which is most expensive (in direct losses) to run.

If budget cuts require cancellation of trains, the Sunset Limited should be the first to go. It's worth trying once again to get daily service -- I believe the agreement with UP to not discuss daily service for two years just expired -- but if daily service can't be arranged, it's time to give up and try something else. Maybe a daily train could be arranged over parts of the route. The way it is now, it's not providing much transportation, and it's not providing much political support either, and it has pretty poor potential. Connectivity is valuable, but it's not worth $23 million/year (direct losses) and 4 trainsets, and three-a-week provides pretty poor connectivity. Those sleepers and coaches could make more revenue on other routes, and more spare lounges and diners are needed (for the Auto Train if nothing else).

Frankly, one of the problems facing the western trains is that there is a status quo bias, partly due to the state of the politics; it's very hard to start a new train service.

I'd happily cancel the Sunset Limited ($25 million direct losses in 2012, $29 million in 2009) and put the operating funds into a daily North Coast Hiawatha (Amtrak estimate of direct losses $31 million in 2009 -- I think that's an underestimate of revenue), but that's not really possible, even with the political support in Montana. I'd happily reroute the Southwest Chief to the equally-fast route with more people on it, but there seems to be a strong bias against the reroute. Extending the Heartland Flyer to Wichita should have been done long ago.

On an even more frustrating note, the Iowa corridor service (Quad Cities-Iowa City-Des Moines-Omaha) has been planned for many years and would be an excellent service; but it can't seem to attract the necessary political support. This would not only be an excellent corridor route on its own; rerouting the Denver-Chicago train to this route would benefit the Denver-Chicago train massively. But it seems to be prevented by shortsightedness in the state legislature. The local business interests in the Quad Cities and Iowa City have been very frustrated.

East of Ohio, and also in Illinois/Michigan/Missouri, there seems to be much more political backing for service expansion. The same is true on the West Coast.

How shall I sum this up?


There are portions of the Western routes which should be frequent corridors with the same potential as the eastern corridors, but (west of Illinois) it seems there isn't the political support for running those corridors.
This includes the whole of the Texas Eagle, which would be great if it weren't so slow and unreliable. Any improvement here should pay off big time.
Without the higher frequencies and fast service on the "good bits", the transcons are doomed to poor performance, and double-overnights are problematic period.
The "bad bits" (the depopulated segments) of the Western routes mainly exist for network connectivity and political support; but some of them aren't really providing either of those and have no value.
For instance, the Southwest Chief would be better off stopping in Amarillo and Wichita.
Eastern route cuts cannot improve the bottom line significantly, and would probably make it worse; the only cuts with any chance of improving the bottom line are to routes with great potential (the Cardinal). The Western routes, the expensive ones, are therefore where any forced cuts should be.
The Sunset Limited is hopeless in its current form, attracts no political support (presumably because the existing service is too terrible) and if cuts are needed, it should be cut before anything else.
On the other hand, if money is available for expansion, it should be focused on building up corridors which overlap existing routes... corridors where political support can be gained. Right now the best such options are probably in the East, but if the political winds changed in Iowa or Minnesota or Mississippi or Texas, such projects would be well worth it politically as well as financially and in terms of riders.


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## CHamilton

There are a lot of good ideas here, but I will confine *my comments* to the EB and the CS, since they are my "home trains" in Seattle.



neroden said:


> The political situation (my analysis which may be wrong in places):
> 
> 
> The Empire Builder has heavy political support. Montana and North Dakota Senators and Representatives are big Amtrak supporters, as are Congresspeople from Minnesota, and until recently, also Wisconsin.
> *Mostly true, although support for Amtrak is increasingly partisan. Rail advocates need to try reversing this, but it will be a hard slog.*
> 
> 
> The Coast Starlight goes through districts of strong Amtrak support for practically its entire distance, and all three states are big Amtrak supporters. However, would any of these Representatives turn on Amtrak if it was cancelled? Probably not; Washington, Oregon, and California support a lot of Amtrak corridor serivce. OR-2 and CA-1 are only served by the Coast Starlight, but the other Congressional districts the CS goes through are all served by other Amtrak trains.
> *You may be right, but if I were Amtrak, I wouldn't want to do anything that would annoy Patty Murray, Barbara Boxer, and other powerful western Senators. Several of us have been thinking about scenarios in which the west coast "secedes" from Amtrak and runs our own trains, and we calculate that such a scenario is quite viable. I, for one, don't want to see a fracturing of the national system, but frankly, Amtrak needs the west coast more than vice versa.*
> 
> Bear this political analysis in mind as you read the rest of this.
> 
> 
> Three of the routes have a "mountain problem". The Empire Builder, Coast Starlight, and California Zephyr have to cross big mountains, and they do so *slowly*. ...
> All of the double-overnight routes have severe timekeeping problems, ...
> The Coast Starlight takes the wrong route through southern Oregon; it should stop at Medford, although this would require the state of Oregon to spend a lot on track upgrades.
> *That would be a huge project. Even in the good old days, Portland to Medford and Ashland took over 12 hours. So to be time-competitive with driving, you'd need higher-speed service than anything currently happening on the west coast (not counting CAHSR...which is another discussion entirely). And AFAIK, there has been no passenger service south of Ashland for a long, long time.*
> 
> 
> The Coast Starlight connects three regions (Southern California, Northern California, Pacific Northwest) which are extremely supportive of passenger train service and whose demographics are more favorable to passenger trains than average; and it's the only service serving the Salinas region as well, which should be fertile ground. And it's actually a single-overnight train. The CS really should be doing better, and I'm not sure why it isn't. Maybe it's just too slow, due to those mountains.
> *Parts of the CS do well enough. But SEA-EUG is covered by the Cascades corridor, and SAC-SJC-SLO has other corridor service, as does SBA-LAX. We need Coast Starlight/Daylight frequencies, and timekeeping that is as reliable as the corridor services, but that's very hard to do on the coast line. As things stand, unless they are going to places outside the corridors, very few riders will choose the CS over the local services. Especially now that amenities like the wine tastings have gone away. *
> 
> *Note also that the areas that are not covered by other corridors have miserable station times. A Seattle friend has been wanting to visit her mother in Redding for several years now, but she just can't face the 2-3am schedule.*
> 
> *Oh, and by the way, there is a Thruway bus from KFS to Medford, Ashland and Brookings, but it only connects without an overnight to 11 southbound and 14 northbound, and it has to be one of the longest bus schedules in the system: 10 hours from Brookings to KFS, with a 3-hour layover in Medford. This is a schedule that only Swadian could love  *
> 
> 
> Assume that the current Empire Builder mess is fixed eventually. MSP-Chicago still needs its own train for timekeeping reasons if nothing else. So does Spokane-Seattle. Both would improve ridership on the Empire Builder by providing multiple frequencies per day.
> *Absolutely. WSDOT definitely wants another SPK-SEA train (possibly via Stampede Pass to serve college town Ellensburg); it's just a matter of coming up with the money, something that isn't likely to happen fast in our current deadlocked legislature. And Minnesota has a Wisconsin problem: they aren't going to put up the money unless Wisconsin does...not likely at present. (Although it has been suggested that a MN-supported train could be called "The Golden Gopher" and painted appropriately. That might annoy the WI folks enough to get them to pony up some support.)*
> 
> 
> Montana really would like a train which stopped at its major cities, and it should have one; unfortunately it hasn't been willing to pay for it. Similarly, I'd go to Bismarck if it had a train (I have friends there). The North Coast Hiawatha would probably do as well as the Empire Builder... trouble is that still requires a substantial subsidy.
> *Yes, although if the EB's timekeeping problems continue for 5+ years, I wouldn't be surprised if the states start looking seriously at the NCH (and the Pioneer) as alternative services.*
> 
> 
> So, I think that double-overnights are a bad idea. But where would you split them? It's not really possible for the SW Chief, Empire Builder, or Sunset Limited; none of them have a logical or appropriate place to change trains, since well over half the passengers are continuing through any given point and there aren't any midpoint cities suitable for layovers.
> *You're right that the EB has no logical place for a split. Whitefish comes closest in terms of location and schedule time, but it's hardly a teeming metropolis.*
> 
> Frankly, one of the problems facing the western trains is that there is a status quo bias, partly due to the state of the politics; it's very hard to start a new train service.
> 
> I'd happily cancel the Sunset Limited ($25 million direct losses in 2012, $29 million in 2009) and put the operating funds into a daily North Coast Hiawatha (Amtrak estimate of direct losses $31 million in 2009 -- I think that's an underestimate of revenue), but that's not really possible, even with the political support in Montana.
> 
> *Indeed, yes, although the NCH may be looking pretty good right now, as there seems to be no end to the EB's problems.*


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## Devil's Advocate

If we're going to cancel the Sunset Limited then we may as well cancel the perpetually disconnected Empire Builder along with it. If and when the Builder can maintain a schedule we can talk about bringing it back. Should probably cut the CZ route west of Denver since that's where most of the traffic seems to die off. Then circle the wagons around a rerouted Southwest Chief.


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## EB_OBS

Well, even a late or very late EB is better than no EB at all for a lot of people that live on the highline.


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## CHamilton

As EB_OBS says, the Builder's strength, historically, is that it serves a lot of people who are not going end to end. If the EB goes away, ND, WA and MN are going to have to figure out a way to serve the workers who are commuting to the Williston area -- since there are a lot of these folks from Puget Sound and the Twin Cities.

In an ideal world, we'd have a twice-daily Builder, a twice-daily NCH, and at least a daily Pioneer. These trains would give sightseers and long-distance travelers who aren't in a hurry plenty of choices, while serving all of the thriving communities along all three routes. And I think a reasonable case could be made that whatever funding is needed for these trains would be less than what it would take to build and run services using other modes.


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## Just-Thinking-51

But a chronic late train will cause people to start looking for a different transportation means.

Just as chronic late freight shipment cause shippers to look for a different carrier.


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## Paulus

CHamilton said:


> As EB_OBS says, the Builder's strength, historically, is that it serves a lot of people who are not going end to end. If the EB goes away, ND, WA and MN are going to have to figure out a way to serve the workers who are commuting to the Williston area -- since there are a lot of these folks from Puget Sound and the Twin Cities.
> 
> In an ideal world, we'd have a twice-daily Builder, a twice-daily NCH, and at least a daily Pioneer. These trains would give sightseers and long-distance travelers who aren't in a hurry plenty of choices, while serving all of the thriving communities along all three routes. And I think a reasonable case could be made that whatever funding is needed for these trains would be less than what it would take to build and run services using other modes.


The cost to benefit ratio on that would be amazingly bad. Even if it costs less than other modes, that's not necessarily an argument for doing it.


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## SarahZ

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> But a chronic late train will cause people to start looking for a different transportation means.
> 
> Just as chronic late freight shipment cause shippers to look for a different carrier.


True, but assuming we move to Seattle next year:

My boyfriend refuses to fly, and Seattle to Chicago is a stupid-long drive, so if the EB were eliminated, we really wouldn't have another option for visiting my family, other than taking the CS to the CZ.

The CS/CZ combo is approximately 71 hours. The EB is 45 hours, 15 minutes. So, even if the EB is 10 hours late, we're still coming out way ahead, and we wouldn't have to switch trains at 6:15 AM.


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## Devil's Advocate

I think it's pretty clear at this point that the "can't fly, refuse to drive" crowd is not nearly large enough to keep the Western trains operating within the realm of what America's government is willing to fund. That's not a knock against you so much as a reminder that Amtrak has to do what it can to remain relevant in today's market. I think we can all agree that Amtrak will have fewer and fewer government dollars to spend as time goes on. I think we can also agree that there is only a finite amount that Amtrak can raise fares before they will begin to price themselves out of the market. Assuming we can agree on those two points then over a long enough timeline some of the current routes will need to be cut in order to save other routes.


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## SarahZ

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think it's pretty clear at this point that the "can't fly, refuse to drive" crowd is not nearly large enough to keep the Western trains operating within the realm of what America's government is willing to fund. That's not a knock against you so much as a reminder that Amtrak has to do what it can to remain relevant in today's market. I think we can all agree that Amtrak will have fewer and fewer federal dollars to spend as time goes on. I think we can also agree that there is only a finite amount that Amtrak can raise fares before they begin to price themselves out of the market. Assuming we can agree on those two points then over a long enough timeline some of the current routes will probably need to be cut in order to save other routes.


I know. I admit I was using a particularly whiny example of why I don't want the EB to go away. 

Honestly, if the EB went away, we'd either suck it up and drive or take the CS to the CZ. We just wouldn't LIKE it, hence the whining.


----------



## cocojacoby

neroden said:


> Of course, at this point the LSL is getting too long and will have to be made into two trains. That's OK.


How about a Boston - Chicago train and a New York - Chicago train that run independently but meet up in Albany for cross platform transfers. Then one train goes via Cleveland (the existing route) and the other goes via Detroit to create new markets?

I know the naysayers will mention the cross-border problem, but that could be worked out.


----------



## jis

The two trains will either have to follow closely one behind the other between Albany and Buffalo Depew or have to run as a combined train between those two points.

A more realistic thing would be to run them on substantially separate schedules as two separate trains with no synchronization in Albany, and then run one of them via Toledo - Detroit/Dearborn - K-Zoo - Chicago (possibly the later one to pass Toledo westbound and the earlier one to pass Toledo eastbound), and the other on its current route. As for running through Canada between Buffalo and Detroit, keep on dreaming.


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

cocojacoby said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, at this point the LSL is getting too long and will have to be made into two trains. That's OK.
> 
> 
> 
> How about a Boston - Chicago train and a New York - Chicago train that run independently but meet up in Albany for cross platform transfers. Then one train goes via Cleveland (the existing route) and the other goes via Detroit to create new markets?
> 
> I know the naysayers will mention the cross-border problem, but that could be worked out.
Click to expand...


I would say the border crossing issue would be 1 of about 100 problems with your idea.


----------



## Anderson

Paulus said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> As EB_OBS says, the Builder's strength, historically, is that it serves a lot of people who are not going end to end. If the EB goes away, ND, WA and MN are going to have to figure out a way to serve the workers who are commuting to the Williston area -- since there are a lot of these folks from Puget Sound and the Twin Cities.
> 
> In an ideal world, we'd have a twice-daily Builder, a twice-daily NCH, and at least a daily Pioneer. These trains would give sightseers and long-distance travelers who aren't in a hurry plenty of choices, while serving all of the thriving communities along all three routes. And I think a reasonable case could be made that whatever funding is needed for these trains would be less than what it would take to build and run services using other modes.
> 
> 
> 
> The cost to benefit ratio on that would be amazingly bad. Even if it costs less than other modes, that's not necessarily an argument for doing it.
Click to expand...

That really depends. If one of each (the Builder and the NCH) run as a "local" hitting virtually any town that will fund a station with a flag stop (perhaps requiring tickets to be purchased by a certain time _a la_ the Canadian) while the other runs as an "express", only hitting major towns, I think there's a decent case to be made for this. Additionally, those four trains would almost inevitably offer multiple good options CHI-MSP and SEA-SPK.

I would point out that Williston, for example, may be in a position to offer 100k+ riders/year, and it is _ver__y_ unlikely that any of the cities in North Dakota are going to end up with affordable passenger flights anytime soon.


----------



## R30A

" I think we can all agree that Amtrak will have fewer and fewer government dollars to spend as time goes on."

I certainly don't agree. The opposite has clearly been the trend over the last decade, and I have no reason to believe it will not continue to be, especially considering ridership and political trends.


----------



## Paul Dow

jis said:


> The problem of "trains not paying attention to schedules" applies mostly to just the LD network, which is a minority of trains run by Amtrak. Most corridors where by numbers most trains are, do adhere to schedules quite nicely most of the time.


True, NE Corridor trains usually run within a few minutes of schedule. Since I'm planning a trip on the Eastbound LSL, that's what I'm concerned with,

I looked up this month's results. Pretty scary looking. I'm concerned with the arrival in Springfield, MA, so the padding into Boston doesn't help it. Scheduled arrival is 5:48 PM. (17:48)

Date Actual Time Late 

1-May 19:12 1:24

2-May 17:49 0:01

3-May 18:40 0:52

4-May 18:12 0:24

5-May 18:21 0:33

6-May 18:16 0:28

7-May 19:14 1:26

8-May 21:20 3:32

9-May 19:55 2:07

10-May 21:18 3:30

11-May 18:16 0:28

12-May 1:02 +1 7:14 Approx

13-May 19:46 1:58

14-May 19:55 2:07

15-May 19:35 1:47

16-May 18:54 1:06

17-May 19:34 1:46

18-May 19:57 2:09

19-May 23:08 5:20

20-May 20:12 2:24

21-May 23:18 5:30 Approx

22-May 19:55 2:07

23-May 20:22 2:34

24-May 19:00 1:12

25-May 23:46 5:58

26-May 23:46 5:58

27-May 18:22 0:34

28-May 19:18 1:30

5/12 & 21 times I estimated based on the arrival in Albany. I think the reporting system gave up since they were so late.

So it's only been really on time once this month, and within about 1/2 hour late 6 out of 28 days for 21.4%. It's only 14.3% if you strictly use Amtrak's 30 minute OTP rule. Today is showing an estimate on Amtrak's web site. For a trip that should take 19 hours 18 minutes, some of those delay times are a significant ratio of the trip.

I'm using up almost all my AGR points on this trip. I've only taken a few long distance trips, but looking at the CHI and NYP daily results on Trainorders, it's just too unreliable for any more. I know some people here like more time on the train, but there's a point for me where customer expectations aren't met.


----------



## Anderson

R30A said:


> " I think we can all agree that Amtrak will have fewer and fewer government dollars to spend as time goes on."
> 
> I certainly don't agree. The opposite has clearly been the trend over the last decade, and I have no reason to believe it will not continue to be, especially considering ridership and political trends.


I hate to be a bother, but what trend are you referring to? Aside from a spike in funding in 2009-10, the trend as of late has been steadily down, with no visible change in the political climate that would reverse it.


----------



## Paulus

Just curious: Is it possible to adjust a setting in the board software to limit the number of times you can get a quote within a quote automatically or possibly to upgrade to another set of software if necessary? It gets a bit annoying to have to dig them out sometimes and incredibly annoying when others don't (I've literally had to scroll past single character lines on mobile the quoteception was so bad).



Anderson said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cost to benefit ratio on that would be amazingly bad. Even if it costs less than other modes, that's not necessarily an argument for doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> That really depends. If one of each (the Builder and the NCH) run as a "local" hitting virtually any town that will fund a station with a flag stop (perhaps requiring tickets to be purchased by a certain time _a la_ the Canadian) while the other runs as an "express", only hitting major towns, I think there's a decent case to be made for this. Additionally, those four trains would almost inevitably offer multiple good options CHI-MSP and SEA-SPK.
> I would point out that Williston, for example, may be in a position to offer 100k+ riders/year, and it is _ver__y_ unlikely that any of the cities in North Dakota are going to end up with affordable passenger flights anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Would you be running them as just a corridor train basically and the express a typical long distance train with sleepers and diners? You'd have better performance, but the marginal cost of operations for that (Corridor Builder, Hiawathas, and Pioneer) is probably somewhere around an additional $220 million per year ($280 if all frequencies are sleepers with diners), plus whatever capital and other allocated costs are involved. Sure you'll have some farebox recovery, but I'd be surprised if they did much better than the 55% (of allocated) costs that the Builder is currently doing.


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think it's pretty clear at this point that the "can't fly, refuse to drive" crowd is not nearly large enough


I think it's clearly large enough to keep *some* trains operating. I'm not sure how many, but my guess based on population patterns is at least NY-Chicago and Chicago-LA (SW Chief). Consider that regularly scheduled ocean liner service, as distinct from cruise service, still exists from London to New York.
The rest of the trains have different clientele; the Empire Builder is basically providing a way to get in and out of a bunch of isolated towns in ND and MT, for example. The Coast Starlight has its isolated towns as well. The California Zephyr west of Denver has all those skiing areas, and the "land cruise" traffic, and at the west end has Reno. Denver-Chicago is a perfectly good corridor. The Texas Eagle is really on an incredibly excellent corridor route, it's just too damn slow and unreliable; if it were as fast as driving and ran on time, I think it would absolutely boom.

At this point the Sunset Limited does not have a meaningful clientele. The people who ride it regularly seem to complain that it's not practical, which is a very bad sign.



> to keep the Western trains operating within the realm of what America's government is willing to fund. That's not a knock against you so much as a reminder that Amtrak has to do what it can to remain relevant in today's market. I think we can all agree that Amtrak will have fewer and fewer government dollars to spend as time goes on.


Actually, I disagree on this. I think Amtrak will have more and more government money to spend. It will take a few years before that happens; we have to get past the demographic tipping point, which is very close to my birth year. My age is actually the median age in the US, but since people under 18 can't vote, it's going to be another decade or two before it's the median *voter* age.

The shift to ever-increasing government funding of Amtrak will happen sooner in some states than in others, *and it already is happening in some states*. I think Amtrak is now receiving more state government money than Amtrak has ever received before. Eventually the trend will filter up to the federal government, but as I say, it'll take a while.

However, an awful lot of that future government money is going to go to short corridors, huge numbers of which are desperately needed all over the country. Allentown-Philadelphia and Allentown-NYC are each more valuable than any of the western trains, IMNSHO, and I can list off several dozens of corridors like that without much thought.

We're already witnessing this dynamic: Amtrak now has to decide between spending money funding operations for western transcons, or spending money on capital improvements for other (better) routes, whether it's NEC improvements or new Viewliners or purchasing the bridge across the Niagara River.

You can see the mood clearly tilting towards the latter. I can't really argue with this, since the capital improvements end up giving us more service overall. Frankly, if cancelling the Sunset Limited gets us 20 more Viewliners, I'd do it, because I can immediately think of deployments for those Viewliners which would be more popular than the Sunset Limited and cost less to run.



> I think we can also agree that there is only a finite amount that Amtrak can raise fares before they will begin to price themselves out of the market.


Yeah, though I don't know how high that is. It seems to be astronomically high on the LSL, but much lower on the western transcons. *This* is clearly a problem for the western transcons.



> Assuming we can agree on those two points then over a long enough timeline some of the current routes will need to be cut in order to save other routes.


I'm not sure this is the case. It really is a question of what needs to be done to get through the next couple of decades, since after that Amtrak's funding is going to increase. Routes which have political support, such as the Empire Builder, will find funding somehow. I don't see much hope for the Sunset Limited, where service seems to be below the level where it gets votes. (That level is probably "daily".)
On another matter, the Lake Shore Limited timekeeping is almost entirely the fault of CSX, which needs to be smacked down by the Surface Transportation Board for its blatant lawbreaking. New York State is planning to build separate passenger tracks (once NY comes up with funding) essentially because of the illegal delays caused by CSX. There is also some trouble in the final Chicago approach on NS, but that should be fixed by the already-under-construction Englewood Flyover and Indiana Gateway projects; NS is a pretty responsible host.

I'll respond to CHamliton's very interesting comment in a second...


----------



## jis

Paulus said:


> Would you be running them as just a corridor train basically and the express a typical long distance train with sleepers and diners? You'd have better performance, but the marginal cost of operations for that (Corridor Builder, Hiawathas, and Pioneer) is probably somewhere around an additional $220 million per year ($280 if all frequencies are sleepers with diners), plus whatever capital and other allocated costs are involved. Sure you'll have some farebox recovery, but I'd be surprised if they did much better than the 55% (of allocated) costs that the Builder is currently doing.


I am curious, what makes a corridor Builder all that different from a Palmetto? Population density on the route? Total running time? It is true that the short distance O/D pair numbers the further south you go tend to become lower in case of the Palmetto.


----------



## Paulus

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be running them as just a corridor train basically and the express a typical long distance train with sleepers and diners? You'd have better performance, but the marginal cost of operations for that (Corridor Builder, Hiawathas, and Pioneer) is probably somewhere around an additional $220 million per year ($280 if all frequencies are sleepers with diners), plus whatever capital and other allocated costs are involved. Sure you'll have some farebox recovery, but I'd be surprised if they did much better than the 55% (of allocated) costs that the Builder is currently doing.
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious, what makes a corridor Builder all that different from a Palmetto? Population density on the route? Total running time? It is true that the short distance O/D pair numbers the further south you go tend to become lower in case of the Palmetto.
Click to expand...

Corridor Builder would be just like the Palmetto. I just used the term to represent an all coach Empire Builder frequency was all (probably because I was using state supported corridor train marginal costs for it).


----------



## afigg

Anderson said:


> R30A said:
> 
> 
> 
> " I think we can all agree that Amtrak will have fewer and fewer government dollars to spend as time goes on."
> 
> I certainly don't agree. The opposite has clearly been the trend over the last decade, and I have no reason to believe it will not continue to be, especially considering ridership and political trends.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to be a bother, but what trend are you referring to? Aside from a spike in funding in 2009-10, the trend as of late has been steadily down, with no visible change in the political climate that would reverse it.
Click to expand...

Well, Amtrak did get a small bump in federal funding in the FY14 appropriations from $1.34 billion total in the sequestered FY13 appropriations to $1.39 billion total for FY14. This was the first increase in direct federal funding since $1.555 Billion total in FY10. I don't have the total direct appropriation amounts prior to FY07 handy, but Amtrak funding started to improve the latter part of the Bush years, especially after the Dems got control of Congress in the 2006 elections.

By direct funding, I mean the funds that are directly provided to Amtrak in the annual appropriations. There has been a lot of federal funds provided through other means: the $420 million from the Treasury to exercise the Early Buyout Options in the Warrington era leases, the $1.3 billion in stimulus funds, the federal HSIPR grants, and Sandy relief funds. The spike in 2009 to 2010 was pretty large with the HSIPR and TIGER grants which will continue to be spent through 2017 and 2018. But sorting all those funds out is a challenge, so set those aside, except to note that Amtrak and the NEC should get a boost from the Sandy mitigation funds which will help make up for the austerity budgets imposed by the House.

What has increased over the past 3-4 years has been the share of the federal money going to the general capital category. The early buyouts and close-out of lease payments has reduced the debt service amount from $285 million in FY09 to $177 million in FY14. The operating grant has shrunk from $475 million in FY09 and $580 million in FY10 to $340 million in FY14 (however Amtrak did use surpluses in the operating grant for capital projects). Then adding the state subsidy payments increases in FY14, more of the appropriations can go to capital. (The ADA compliance and NEC Gateway engineering set-asides are included in the total for capital.)

So in FY11, after the House did its cuts, the total capital was $658. In FY14, the total is $863 million. Not enough to pay for new rolling stock and getting the NEC to a state of good repair, but still more to work with. We will see what happens with the FY15 budget, but my guess is that Amtrak will get about the same total in FY15 as in FY14. Which will leave the LD trains in a holding pattern.


----------



## neroden

CHamilton said:


> *Parts of the CS do well enough. But SEA-EUG is covered by the Cascades corridor, and SAC-SJC-SLO has other corridor service, as does SBA-LAX. We need Coast Starlight/Daylight frequencies, and timekeeping that is as reliable as the corridor services, but that's very hard to do on the coast line. As things stand, unless they are going to places outside the corridors, very few riders will choose the CS over the local services. Especially now that amenities like the wine tastings have gone away. *
> 
> *Note also that the areas that are not covered by other corridors have miserable station times. A Seattle friend has been wanting to visit her mother in Redding for several years now, but she just can't face the 2-3am schedule.*


Thanks for this analysis. My first thought was that this suggested that the Coast Starlight schedule should be rearranged.
Unfortunately, after trying this for a while, it seems that the real problem is that the train is simply too slow. The Coast Starlight is averaging 40 mph (including station stops etc.)

If the Coast Starlight could be made faster (sigh), then a schedule could be arranged which left Seattle at, say, 5 AM, and arrived Emeryville at midnight. This would only require an average speed of 48 mph (cutting 3.5 hours off the schedule). That would open up a lot of possibilities.

By way of contrast, the LSL's average speed from Albany to Chicago, when on time, is over 55 mph, and it's about 53 mph from NYC to Albany. (From Boston to Albany, however, it's 36 mph; this is tolerated by people only because of the short 200 mile distance, the low road speeds in the area, and the heavy road traffic near Boston. And it's currently being sped up from Worcester to Boston.)

The next question is *why* the Coast Starlight is so slow. Part of it is certainly mountains; there are two pairs of horseshoe curves (Cascade Loops and Cantara Loops), which are big time-wasters. Part of it is curves, slaloming back and forth to follow the river valley. Part of it is that there appear to be some urban speed restrictions.

Anyway, to make the Coast Starlight route work, it needs to be faster.

Half an hour could be cut off in Portland by reducing dwell time, and another hour simply by running as fast as the corridor routes; but you'd need to cut another 2 hours to make a viable daytime route from California to Oregon.

It might be possible to raise the speed limits in some areas without route realignment. Particularly south of San Jose, where the speed limits seem artificially slow. Tilting trains might allow faster travel along the entire route.

After that, it looks like a number of cutoff tunnels, bridges, and cuts would be necessary to straighten the route. This is the sort of thing which is done fairly routinely on corridor routes, and which used to be done by profitable private railroads (on the routes in the East, you can usually see the old follow-the-river routes and the cutoffs made to bypass the bends). However, there simply isn't the commitment to this for the Coast Starlight route. Because the states have other priorities -- including doing the same thing on their shorter "corridor" routes, which is *always* going to take precedence.

In the East, good "corridors" cover a very large percentage of the "long-distance" routes -- but in the case of the northern part of the Coast Starlight, not so much. To get better speed overall, improvements would probably be needed in the area which isn't shared with any likely corridors, namely Sacramento to Eugene, where the population is just low. This should be maintained for basic connectivity to the Pacific Northwest, but I don't see it getting much better any time soon.

The southern portion of the Coast Starlight looks more promising. I can see no reason why the speed limits are so slow from San Jose to Los Angeles.

http://www.donwinter.com/Railroad%20Infrastructure%20and%20Traffic%20Data/Trunk%20Routes/%28Pacific%29%20Coast%20Line/Route%20Descriptions/Ventura%20to%20Gilroy.htm

And all of this southern area *is* viable "corridor" territory. If California decided to invest in a Coast Daylight, it really should be possible to make it faster -- get rid of all those 35 mph zones and bring speeds up from 60 to 80. Again, you might want tilting trains.


----------



## CHamilton

Hmm. How to cut 3.5 hours off the CS's running time. Let's try it on train 11 southbound -- northbound is similar, but has padding in somewhat different places.

Current time Reasonable time Reduction

SEA-TAC 0:44 0:35 0:09

TAC-OLW 0:50 0:30 0:20 (effective 2017, when bypass is done)

OLW-CTL 0:24 0:24 0:00

CTL-KEL 0:44 0:40 0:04

KEL-VAN 0:39 0:29 0:10 (effective 2017, when trackwork is done)

VAN-PDX 0:52 0:22 0:30 (reduce padding, upgrade Columbia bridge)

PDX 0:35 0:20 0:15 (reduce dwell time)

PDX-SLM 1:12 0:45 0:27 

SLM-ALY 0:33 0:33 0:00

ALY-EUG 1:00 0:50 0:10

EUG-CMO 2:58 2:58 0:00 (not much can be done without major work)

CMO-KFS 1:58 1:20 0:38 (reduce padding, dwell time at KFS)

KFS-SAC 8:35 7:45 0:50 (reduce padding, dwell time at SAC)

If I did the math right, we've already cut 2:33 before leaving SAC without changing running speed. I don't know the southern portion of the route as well, but IIRC, we could cut 0:20 at SJC, 0:10 at SLO, 0:15 at SBA, and 0:10 approaching LAX, for a total reduction of 3:28. Of course, this assumes that there are no breakdowns, derailments, and freight or Metrolink traffic problems, but yes, such a schedule is feasible.

Having achieved faster running times, though, do we really want the endpoint times you propose? I'd be more inclined to leave the EMY time alone, and add a second frequency with your times. So the Starlight schedule would look something like this.

SEA 1:00pm

PDX 4:00pm

EUG 7:00pm 

KFS 11:00pm

SAC 6:30am

EMY 8:00am

SBA 5:00pm

LAX 7:30pm


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## neroden

CHamilton said:


> And Minnesota has a Wisconsin problem: they aren't going to put up the money unless Wisconsin does...not likely at present. (Although it has been suggested that a MN-supported train could be called "The Golden Gopher" and painted appropriately. That might annoy the WI folks enough to get them to pony up some support.)


I've suggested that a St. Paul - Chicago train should run express through Wisconsin, via the BNSF route, and stop in East Dubuque, IL on its way to Chicago.
This would probably be sufficient to put a scare into Wisconsin. It would probably please Illinois's governor, who has been trying to figure out how to serve the Dubuque area when CN won't cooperate. It would also bypass any problems with CP. (Having ridden this route during a detour, the only area which really needs track and signal work to support passenger service is the yard and diamond at LaCrosse.)


----------



## steve in cleveland

When the private railroads wanted to discourage people from taking passenger trains back in the 1960s, what did they do? They eliminated the amenities....think of November 1967, when New York Central removed the Lookout Lounge, the double-dining-car, and even the NAME from the 20th Century Limited....yes, the train from New York to Chicago continues to this day as the Lake Shore Limited, but the true first class amenities have been gone since 1967----and now they want to remove what little "pampering" is left. My guess is it is the same purpose, to discourage people from going on the train. As someone posted above, these amenities cost practically nothing, but they are the only little trinkets you get for paying First Class fare. We've seen this nonsense before with Amtrak, too....stopping the cloth table cloths, and then restoring them, then removing them....it all shows arrogant disregard for the customer. McDonald's Hamburger billionaire Ray Kroc always said "If you have a dispute with a customer, even if you win the dispute, you LOSE----you lose the customer. Always make the customer happy."


----------



## henryj

Then lets start by eliminating the NEC. "I think we can agree" that after the November elections Amtrak will be gone. Replace by different operators that can actually run trains without the bloated overhead and politics. So all the wishful thinking that by eliminating one or two trains we can save the rest is just baloney. We need to add routes that have been taken away, not eliminate the few we have left. Nothing will happen until after November. Then it's going to get really interesting. I can hardly wait.



Devil's Advocate said:


> I think it's pretty clear at this point that the "can't fly, refuse to drive" crowd is not nearly large enough to keep the Western trains operating within the realm of what America's government is willing to fund. That's not a knock against you so much as a reminder that Amtrak has to do what it can to remain relevant in today's market. I think we can all agree that Amtrak will have fewer and fewer government dollars to spend as time goes on. I think we can also agree that there is only a finite amount that Amtrak can raise fares before they will begin to price themselves out of the market. Assuming we can agree on those two points then over a long enough timeline some of the current routes will need to be cut in order to save other routes.


----------



## Paulus

I'm feeling confident that Congress' inability to do anything at all will preserve Amtrak, no matter what happens in the elections.


----------



## neroden

Amtrak apparently has access to short-term loans again (as of this January, when Amtrak borrowed money to pay off old early-buyout options on equipment leases), which is actually a very big deal. This makes it much easier for Amtrak to sit out stupid short-term (less-than-a-year) funding crises like the "government shutdown" stuff.


----------



## haolerider

henryj said:


> Then lets start by eliminating the NEC. "I think we can agree" that after the November elections Amtrak will be gone. Replace by different operators that can actually run trains without the bloated overhead and politics. So all the wishful thinking that by eliminating one or two trains we can save the rest is just baloney. We need to add routes that have been taken away, not eliminate the few we have left. Nothing will happen until after November. Then it's going to get really interesting. I can hardly wait.
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's pretty clear at this point that the "can't fly, refuse to drive" crowd is not nearly large enough to keep the Western trains operating within the realm of what America's government is willing to fund. That's not a knock against you so much as a reminder that Amtrak has to do what it can to remain relevant in today's market. I think we can all agree that Amtrak will have fewer and fewer dgovernment dollars to spend as time goes on. I think we can also agree that there is only a finite amount that Amtrak can raise fares before they will begin to price themselves out of the market. Assuming we can agree on those two points then over a long enough timeline some of the current routes will need to be cut in order to save other routes.
Click to expand...

Amtrak has gotten fewer and fewer dollars from the government for the past several years. As revenue and ridership go , the need for government dollars goes down.
As far as Amtrak going away after the November elections, I think that is just pure poor thinking & getting rid of the NEC is simply stupid! The only place that Amtrak owns track and a very steady piece of revenue that continues to grow as air service continues to be a problem for corporate travelers. Doom & gloom thinking seems to be more prevelant than in past years. Perhaps the elimination of amenities has become a rallying point for negative thinking.


----------



## jis

Interestingly, much to my chagrin I discovered a few weeks back that Aclea travel has joined air travel in the eyes of the corporate travel bean counters. Officially, the large multi-national that I work for, does not allow travel in Acela (any class) for a trip paid for by the company. If you take rail it is only Regionals on the NEC! Acelas have just priced themselves out of the range that the bean counters will tolerate. The only time they allow it is if I can show that the Acela bucket that is available is cheaper than or the same as all Regionals (and alternative air of course) that are available within a certain time window around the proposed departure time. Luckily this does happen sometimes on very early morning or late evening Acelas.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Bet your CEO and the other VIP Suits havent given up the corporate jets and don't ride in steerage when flying commercial! Do they allow the employees to pay the difference to upgrade themselves if they want to and do y'all get to keep your mileage and point awards for frequent travel?


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## jis

jimhudson said:


> Bet your CEO and the other VIP Suits havent given up the corporate jets and don't ride in steerage when flying commercial! Do they allow the employees to pay the difference to upgrade themselves if they want to and do y'all get to keep your mileage and point awards for frequent travel?


The Executive Council I suppose has special dispensation for BC, but a plain old VP does not. Same rules apply to them. However, if you travel more than a certain amount you get to use BC for international flights, not for domestic though. But then Domestic even I get complementary upgraded half the time. There have even been situations where I was sitting in First with a complementary upgrade on a domestic flight while my VP was walking to steerage. So I have no complaints in that respect.

Yes, employees keep all miles and vendor provided perks, and can choose to use either those, or their own money or combo to upgrade any sector they wish. I often do so on international sectors. It simply is not worth it on domestic sectors at least the way I see it. If I get a comp upgrade fine, if not that is fine too. Usually I snag a good bulkhead seat anyway, using my status. I have even self paid upgraded to Sleeper on Amtrak for a business trip to Savannah. The accounting for it is a bit complicated, but it is doable. And yes, you get to keep both the company paid and personally paid for points.

An interesting secret is that very often if the Acela fare is less than the air fare, they will usually wink wink it through even though it is higher than Regional and strictly speaking is contrary to policy. Such is the reality....


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thanks jis, words of wisdom from the travel master!( I used to be one back in the day and I worked for the Government! LOL)


----------



## tonys96

Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?


----------



## Paulus

tonys96 said:


> Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?


Amtrak explicitly stated the other month in their five year plan that they were looking at having sleeper passengers pay for meals in the diner, as they ought to. Currently their ticket prices are set without consideration of meal expenses.


----------



## neroden

And if the dining cars were providing even the level of service they were last year, I'd happily pay for on-board meals.

The cuts to the menu, however, mean that I'll probably be packing my own meals for lunch and dinner, and asking the attendant to find space for my ADA-required cooler. People who don't hate flying and driving as much as I do will just stop riding.

This is really, really stupid.

Amtrak hasn't even bothered to fix the actual, previously-identified problem with the dining car service, which severely hampers its ability to produce revenue -- namely, all the time spent by the employees on paperwork and inventory rather than on serving customers. "Point of Sale" in the dining cars was supposed to fix that, but I haven't heard a peep for years about the implementation.

Many people have suggested implementation of pre-reserving / pre-ordering for meals, which is a great idea. Amtrak isn't doing that either.

Implement those and it would be interesting to see the results. I'd guess they'd be good.

Instead, Amtrak is doing things, like slashing the already tiny menu, which will substantially reduce revenue -- and things like making it unclear what's on the menu, which will increase costs. (As everyone spends lots and lots of time asking what the heck the menu items are.)

This is administrative sabotage. I don't know what idiot proposed these changes, but that idiot doesn't belong in Amtrak administration.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

neroden said:


> This is administrative sabotage. I don't know what idiot proposed these changes, but that idiot doesn't belong in Amtrak administration.


Or it a administration plan to eliminate the trains.

Moves, patterns, retirements, and then bye bye trains.


----------



## yarrow

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is administrative sabotage. I don't know what idiot proposed these changes, but that idiot doesn't belong in Amtrak administration.
> 
> 
> 
> Or it a administration plan to eliminate the trains.
> 
> Moves, patterns, retirements, and then bye bye trains.
Click to expand...

doesn't all this come down to our friend, smilin' joe boardman?


----------



## jis

It actually comes down to a lot of very fertile imagination on all sides


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

At what point does the imagination become real?


----------



## CHamilton

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> At what point does the imagination become real?


When we, as taxpayers, demand more and better service from our elected officials. Please, take a minute out from complaining here, and write to your Congressional representatives. They need to hear from you.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Charlie, don't be Naive. The politicians don't listen to us.


----------



## CHamilton

Green Maned Lion said:


> Charlie, don't be Naive. The politicians don't listen to us.


They won't if we don't even try! I can be as cynical as anyone, but c'mon, that's a pretty defeatist attitude.


----------



## JoeBas

CHamilton said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charlie, don't be Naive. The politicians don't listen to us.
> 
> 
> 
> They won't if we don't even try! I can be as cynical as anyone, but c'mon, that's a pretty defeatist attitude.
Click to expand...

Dunno... at this point unless I'm working for a fat cat lobbyist I think I have a better chance wishing for the Blue Fairy to show up... ... ...


----------



## Green Maned Lion

You have to work much harder than a letter recycling campaign. The motto in Washington is that what the mail man bringeth the trash man taketh away.

Instead we should be pushing for 1) more face to faces, 2) pressure put onto major factors (like campaign contributors) to side with us on the issues, and similar, hands-on action.

Letter writing is a feel good thing that helps the lazy feel like they are doing something and misleads those who can and might do more into thinking they are actually working on the problem.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Green Maned Lion said:


> Charlie, don't be Naive. The politicians don't listen to us.


And yet you apparently think he should listen to you. I liked it better before you came back to spread your why bother nobody cares attitude.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

You totally missed the point, DA. Retread my last post. Angle of attack, not futility of effort.


----------



## CHamilton

Instead of trading personal jabs, let's talk about something real. On April 29, a couple of hundred folks convened at the NARP Council meeting in Washington, DC, and spent the day visiting our Congressional representatives, in person. Since I reside in Washington state, I met with the staffs of Senators Murray and Cantwell, and almost all of our state's Congresspeople, including Rep. Rick Larson [WA-2], who is on the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. And I met face-to-face with Rep. Jim McDermott [WA-7].

We had a very specific list of requests. Some will be difficult to achieve, given the current political gridlock, but one item was received with unanimous approval: a change to PRIIA section 207 that would give the FRA the power to set and enforce service standards for passenger rail. In other words, this change would make it possible to hold the freight railroads accountable for poor treatment of Amtrak and other passenger carriers (like commuter rail services). Rep. Larson is in an excellent position to make this happen.

We spend a lot of time on this board complaining about how poorly Amtrak is treated by the freight railroads. I know it won't be easy, but I am cautiously optimistic that the change we lobbied for might actually improve the situation.

The bottom line is this. Discussions with lawmakers are worthwhile. Not everyone can afford the time and money to go to DC, but all representatives visit their home districts regularly, and if they want to get re-elected, they do listen to their constituents. Letters and emails might not be as effective, but politicians can count. If all of the registered users of AU (almost 7,000!) contacted their elected representatives regularly, then yes, we can make a difference.


----------



## tonys96

Paulus said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak explicitly stated the other month in their five year plan that they were looking at having sleeper passengers pay for meals in the diner, as they ought to. Currently their ticket prices are set without consideration of meal expenses.
Click to expand...

Then why do they dedicate a portion of sleeper fares to dining car revenues???


----------



## D.P. Roberts

I would be very upset if passengers had to start paying for their own meals. If Amtrak were really about to start doing that, then the recent cuts don't make any sense.

Think about it. Currently, the prices listed on the menu are irrelevant to most dining car passengers, whose meals are currently included in their sleeper fare. "Little things" like using real china, tablecloths, flowers, etc. are irrelevant to Amtrak - sleeper passengers are going to show up at the dining car at mealtimes anyway, so you might as well cut everything that's not absolutely necessary.

But if passengers are going to have to pay for their own meals, all of those formerly-irrelevant details are suddenly going to become very important. Amtrak is now going to have to _persuade_ passengers to eat in the dining car, and all of those details - along with freshly prepared food made from fresh ingredients - are what will bring people to the dining car. Otherwise, people will just eat a microwaved pizza from the cafe for a fraction of the price, or bring their own food.

I just think that running a dining car that's attempting to lure customers in is exactly the _opposite_ from running a dining car on minimal losses (which is what they're currently trying to do). They may, at some point, force diners to pay for their meals, but Amtrak's current behavior doesn't make it seem imminent.


----------



## Paulus

tonys96 said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak explicitly stated the other month in their five year plan that they were looking at having sleeper passengers pay for meals in the diner, as they ought to. Currently their ticket prices are set without consideration of meal expenses.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why do they dedicate a portion of sleeper fares to dining car revenues???
Click to expand...

It's not actually dedicated, it's just an accounting thing (Acela actually has a dedicated set out which I think cooks the books somewhat). So you're Joe Schmoe sleeper passenger and you go to the diner. The list price of whatever you chose to eat is, eventually, transferred over to F&B as part of internal accounting. But there isn't a dedicated portion of your ticket set aside for it, your ticket price isn't set with the transfer in mind (and could, theoretically, result in negative sleeper revenue) and if you don't eat anything at all, nothing gets credited to F&B.

My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.

One should note, incidentally, that ridership on the San Joaquin hardly seems to have been hurt by the loss of the dining car back in 2002.


----------



## tonys96

Paulus said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak explicitly stated the other month in their five year plan that they were looking at having sleeper passengers pay for meals in the diner, as they ought to. Currently their ticket prices are set without consideration of meal expenses.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why do they dedicate a portion of sleeper fares to dining car revenues???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not actually dedicated, it's just an accounting thing (Acela actually has a dedicated set out which I think cooks the books somewhat). So you're Joe Schmoe sleeper passenger and you go to the diner. The list price of whatever you chose to eat is, eventually, transferred over to F&B as part of internal accounting. But there isn't a dedicated portion of your ticket set aside for it, your ticket price isn't set with the transfer in mind (and could, theoretically, result in negative sleeper revenue) and if you don't eat anything at all, nothing gets credited to F&B.My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.One should note, incidentally, that ridership on the San Joaquin hardly seems to have been hurt by the loss of the dining car back in 2002.
Click to expand...

So the food is not being paid for? It just magically appears? There is no cost associated with it? 
2002? Long way to go back to justify a position.......and the San Juaquin is a 6.5 hour trip, compared to the overnighters or double overnighters........you picked an apple to compare to grapefruit.......


----------



## Bob Dylan

Where does this "Free Food" come from? There is no such a thing as Free Food!

Amtrak pays for it, we pay for it, the money goes into the pot and the bean counters (sorry Dick!) Juggle the numbers using their approved methods of accounting!(aka cooking the books!)

Bottom line, why pay more for less! YMMV!


----------



## jis

Paulus said:


> My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.


Having lived through it, one thing I can tell you is that the inclusion of food in Sleeper ticket was anything but free. When that happened Sleeper fares went up significantly in one fell swoop and the increase did not seem to be correlated very well with food prices either. Fortunately Slumbercoaches were not included, and I rode Slumbercoaches for as long as they were available, and didn't see the inside of a Sleeper through that period. I did use the Diner usually for breakfast and dinner during that period, and the fare difference between Sleeper and Slumbercoach was way larger than the amount I had to pay to use the Diner.
Purely from my personal perspective, I would love to see food be separated from transport fares and the transport and lodging fares lowered. I would go to the Diner for maybe one or two full meals a day that I am happy to pay separately for, but certainly not for full three meals a day. That is way beyond what my body needs. But of course, expecting fares to go down is a random dream, and won;t happen. All that will happen if food is removed from being covered by the fare is that Diners will eventually fade away, unless the pricing in them become more in line with say something like Applebees at most and perhaps lower, which means more net losses, which may lead to the same end result. Consequently, overall I'd be worried if the inclusion of meal in Sleeper fares was reversed. So is you head spinning now from my about face from where I started?


----------



## Paulus

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived through it, one thing I can tell you is that the inclusion of food in Sleeper ticket was anything but free. When that happened Sleeper fares went up significantly in one fell swoop and the increase did not seem to be correlated very well with food prices either. Fortunately Slumbercoaches were not included, and I rode Slumbercoaches for as long as they were available, and didn't see the inside of a Sleeper through that period. I did use the Diner usually for breakfast and dinner during that period, and the fare difference between Sleeper and Slumbercoach was way larger than the amount I had to pay to use the Diner.
Click to expand...

Thank you. When about was this? I've been having a devil of a time trying to track down when this happened and the details.


----------



## Bob Dylan

As usual Jis (why does spell check insist on changing his name to his?) hit the nail on the head! I too used to frequently ride in Slumber Coaches on the WAS-ATL route of the Crescent instead of Sleeping Cars and usually had Breakfast in the Diner on the way North and Dinner on the way South! Quite a bit cheaper and on a lowly civil servants salary it made these trips possible!

If Amtrak shoots itself in the foot and eliminates meals being included in the fare for sleeper passengers I would hope that the option of renting a roomette @ a lesser fare would be offered but doubt that it would!

As I said previously if this happens I'll go back to riding Coach and taking my food and drink, riding Mega Bus etc for shorter trips and even flying for LD trips!


----------



## tricia

D.P. Roberts said:


> I would be very upset if passengers had to start paying for their own meals. If Amtrak were really about to start doing that, then the recent cuts don't make any sense.
> 
> Think about it. Currently, the prices listed on the menu are irrelevant to most dining car passengers, whose meals are currently included in their sleeper fare. "Little things" like using real china, tablecloths, flowers, etc. are irrelevant to Amtrak - sleeper passengers are going to show up at the dining car at mealtimes anyway, so you might as well cut everything that's not absolutely necessary.
> 
> But if passengers are going to have to pay for their own meals, all of those formerly-irrelevant details are suddenly going to become very important. Amtrak is now going to have to _persuade_ passengers to eat in the dining car, and all of those details - along with freshly prepared food made from fresh ingredients - are what will bring people to the dining car. Otherwise, people will just eat a microwaved pizza from the cafe for a fraction of the price, or bring their own food.
> 
> I just think that running a dining car that's attempting to lure customers in is exactly the _opposite_ from running a dining car on minimal losses (which is what they're currently trying to do). They may, at some point, force diners to pay for their meals, but Amtrak's current behavior doesn't make it seem imminent.


I've been thinking exactly this through the last few pages of this thread. thanks for taking time to type it out.


----------



## CHamilton

Amtrak makes low-key cuts on trains



> The complimentary amenity kits on Amtrak's Empire Builder service from Chicago to Portland and Seattle and Coast Starlight from Los Angeles to Seattle vanished forever last week.
> 
> 
> You'll still be able to buy the kits, which include an inflatable pillow, earplugs, blanket and eye shade. But it'll cost $8.
> 
> Amtrak's move is the latest in a line of low-key reductions, including removing pillows from its coach sections and cutting the "free" glass of wine in dining cars.
> 
> But don't look for your fare to drop by $8.
> 
> "All these changes are necessary in order to reduce costs, increase revenues and preserve passenger rail service across our country," says Amtrak spokeswoman Kimberly Woods.
> 
> In other words, just as the legacy airlines unbundled their airfares in 2009 when they started charging passengers for the first checked bag, these cuts are going to help shore up the troubled national rail carrier's bottom line. Amtrak lost about $73 million on food and beverage service alone last year.
> 
> Rail passengers have mixed feelings about these measures, but the most problematic — and overlooked — part of this story is that Amtrak is acting more like an airline every day. And not in a good way.


----------



## jebr

The feeling I get from that article is more complaints about "little things." For example, the paragraphs spent on "priority unloading" and ticket prices going up feel more like Kaminer is spoiled than true complaints about Amtrak. (It sounds like Kaminer just got lucky before with getting his car fast. Now at least customers can guarantee it.)

There are legitimate complaints about the cuts. However, that article barely scratches the surface of the complaints, and the few complaints it does bring up it, for the most part, blows out of proportion. (The $8 amenity kit, for example, was never meant to replace the sleeper amenity kit. A casual reader may think that the kit is required in order for a sleeper car passenger to get a pillow, which simply isn't true.) I'd rather see the outrage over some of the true cuts that seem to be coming down the line, like more limited menu options, the probable loss of all-day beverages (other than water) in the sleepers, etc.


----------



## yarrow

jebr said:


> The feeling I get from that article is more complaints about "little things." For example, the paragraphs spent on "priority unloading" and ticket prices going up feel more like Kaminer is spoiled than true complaints about Amtrak. (It sounds like Kaminer just got lucky before with getting his car fast. Now at least customers can guarantee it.)
> 
> There are legitimate complaints about the cuts. However, that article barely scratches the surface of the complaints, and the few complaints it does bring up it, for the most part, blows out of proportion. (The $8 amenity kit, for example, was never meant to replace the sleeper amenity kit. A casual reader may think that the kit is required in order for a sleeper car passenger to get a pillow, which simply isn't true.) I'd rather see the outrage over some of the true cuts that seem to be coming down the line, like more limited menu options, the probable loss of all-day beverages (other than water) in the sleepers, etc.





jebr said:


> The feeling I get from that article is more complaints about "little things." For example, the paragraphs spent on "priority unloading" and ticket prices going up feel more like Kaminer is spoiled than true complaints about Amtrak. (It sounds like Kaminer just got lucky before with getting his car fast. Now at least customers can guarantee it.)
> 
> There are legitimate complaints about the cuts. However, that article barely scratches the surface of the complaints, and the few complaints it does bring up it, for the most part, blows out of proportion. (The $8 amenity kit, for example, was never meant to replace the sleeper amenity kit. A casual reader may think that the kit is required in order for a sleeper car passenger to get a pillow, which simply isn't true.) I'd rather see the outrage over some of the true cuts that seem to be coming down the line, like more limited menu options, the probable loss of all-day beverages (other than water) in the sleepers, etc.


i kind of agree with your analysis of the article but the author's conclusion that amtrak is following the airline model seems justified. also, i think the $8 amenity kit(i don't think i've ever seen one in use) was to replace the pillow formerly handed out in coach


----------



## jebr

yarrow said:


> i kind of agree with your analysis of the article but the author's conclusion that amtrak is following the airline model seems justified. also, i think the $8 amenity kit(i don't think i've ever seen one in use) was to replace the pillow formerly handed out in coach


I would agree that Amtrak is becoming a bit more like the airlines with their current changes. The comparison to ultra low cost carriers seems unjustified, but I think that Amtrak is going to try a few airline-type fees.

And yes, the $8 amenity kit is geared towards coach passengers. Sadly, the article doesn't make that clear.


----------



## neroden

tricia said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be very upset if passengers had to start paying for their own meals. If Amtrak were really about to start doing that, then the recent cuts don't make any sense.
> 
> Think about it. Currently, the prices listed on the menu are irrelevant to most dining car passengers, whose meals are currently included in their sleeper fare. "Little things" like using real china, tablecloths, flowers, etc. are irrelevant to Amtrak - sleeper passengers are going to show up at the dining car at mealtimes anyway, so you might as well cut everything that's not absolutely necessary.
> 
> But if passengers are going to have to pay for their own meals, all of those formerly-irrelevant details are suddenly going to become very important. Amtrak is now going to have to _persuade_ passengers to eat in the dining car, and all of those details - along with freshly prepared food made from fresh ingredients - are what will bring people to the dining car. Otherwise, people will just eat a microwaved pizza from the cafe for a fraction of the price, or bring their own food.
> 
> I just think that running a dining car that's attempting to lure customers in is exactly the _opposite_ from running a dining car on minimal losses (which is what they're currently trying to do). They may, at some point, force diners to pay for their meals, but Amtrak's current behavior doesn't make it seem imminent.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been thinking exactly this through the last few pages of this thread. thanks for taking time to type it out.
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks to DP from me too. D.P. really describes the way in which this seems like a poorly thought out combination of ideas.


----------



## neroden

JoeBas said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charlie, don't be Naive. The politicians don't listen to us.
> 
> 
> 
> They won't if we don't even try! I can be as cynical as anyone, but c'mon, that's a pretty defeatist attitude.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Dunno... at this point unless I'm working for a fat cat lobbyist I think I have a better chance wishing for the Blue Fairy to show up... ... ...
Click to expand...

State legislators can be quite responsive. Perhaps because the races are cheaper to compete in, and so it's easier to run a challenge. The threat of a successful challenger seems to wake them up and get them paying attention.


----------



## boxcarsyix

The problem with eliminating any of the LD trains (with the possible exception of the SL) is connectivity. The CZ is my route East. If it were eliminated (or even chopped up) I would not fly to Chicago (to go to Boston for example) when I can fly directly to the East Coast. I prefer not to fly at all, but if there is no reasonable alternative, I don't have much choice.

Of course if the amenity cuts become too severe, rail may no longer be a viable option at all. Two bottles of water for 3 days = dehydration.


----------



## zephyr17

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived through it, one thing I can tell you is that the inclusion of food in Sleeper ticket was anything but free. When that happened Sleeper fares went up significantly in one fell swoop and the increase did not seem to be correlated very well with food prices either. Fortunately Slumbercoaches were not included, and I rode Slumbercoaches for as long as they were available, and didn't see the inside of a Sleeper through that period. I did use the Diner usually for breakfast and dinner during that period, and the fare difference between Sleeper and Slumbercoach was way larger than the amount I had to pay to use the Diner.
> Purely from my personal perspective, I would love to see food be separated from transport fares and the transport and lodging fares lowered. I would go to the Diner for maybe one or two full meals a day that I am happy to pay separately for, but certainly not for full three meals a day. That is way beyond what my body needs. But of course, expecting fares to go down is a random dream, and won;t happen. All that will happen if food is removed from being covered by the fare is that Diners will eventually fade away, unless the pricing in them become more in line with say something like Applebees at most and perhaps lower, which means more net losses, which may lead to the same end result. Consequently, overall I'd be worried if the inclusion of meal in Sleeper fares was reversed. So is you head spinning now from my about face from where I started?
Click to expand...

Yes, I was around then as well, and the sleeper fares went up significantly. It seemed to me that it went up enough to cover the number of meals normally served in the ticketed segment for the capacity of the room. It isn't free or even complimentary. Those meals are pre-paid.


----------



## seat38a

Paulus said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak explicitly stated the other month in their five year plan that they were looking at having sleeper passengers pay for meals in the diner, as they ought to. Currently their ticket prices are set without consideration of meal expenses.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why do they dedicate a portion of sleeper fares to dining car revenues???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not actually dedicated, it's just an accounting thing (Acela actually has a dedicated set out which I think cooks the books somewhat). So you're Joe Schmoe sleeper passenger and you go to the diner. The list price of whatever you chose to eat is, eventually, transferred over to F&B as part of internal accounting. But there isn't a dedicated portion of your ticket set aside for it, your ticket price isn't set with the transfer in mind (and could, theoretically, result in negative sleeper revenue) and if you don't eat anything at all, nothing gets credited to F&B.
> 
> My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.
> 
> One should note, incidentally, that ridership on the San Joaquin hardly seems to have been hurt by the loss of the dining car back in 2002.
Click to expand...



IMG_0108 by seat38a, on Flickr

The above ticket probably has something to do with allocating funds. We as sleeping car passengers had to sign it and put our room and car numbers down. Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses. Unscrupulous waiters and LSA's would list items on the sleeping car passengers ticket and then keep the cash that the coach passenger paid for.


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## tonys96

seat38a said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak explicitly stated the other month in their five year plan that they were looking at having sleeper passengers pay for meals in the diner, as they ought to. Currently their ticket prices are set without consideration of meal expenses.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why do they dedicate a portion of sleeper fares to dining car revenues???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not actually dedicated, it's just an accounting thing (Acela actually has a dedicated set out which I think cooks the books somewhat). So you're Joe Schmoe sleeper passenger and you go to the diner. The list price of whatever you chose to eat is, eventually, transferred over to F&B as part of internal accounting. But there isn't a dedicated portion of your ticket set aside for it, your ticket price isn't set with the transfer in mind (and could, theoretically, result in negative sleeper revenue) and if you don't eat anything at all, nothing gets credited to F&B.My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.One should note, incidentally, that ridership on the San Joaquin hardly seems to have been hurt by the loss of the dining car back in 2002.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_0108 by seat38a, on Flickr The above ticket probably has something to do with allocating funds. We as sleeping car passengers had to sign it and put our room and car numbers down. Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses. Unscrupulous waiters and LSA's would list items on the sleeping car passengers ticket and then keep the cash that the coach passenger paid for.
Click to expand...

Yes, Amtrak's problems are due to crooked waiters and LSAs..........NOT!


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## Green Maned Lion

I'm sure there are some and it's a problem with Amtrak. Why do you think that problems have to be one big thing? That's easy to solve. Amtrak has a swarm of tiny to medium size problems. Which is the devil to solve.


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## tonys96

Green Maned Lion said:


> I'm sure there are some and it's a problem with Amtrak. Why do you think that problems have to be one big thing? That's easy to solve. Amtrak has a swarm of tiny to medium size problems. Which is the devil to solve.


Yep, lets blame the employees.......that's the ticket........( sigh).........


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## VentureForth

Wow. Even I will back up GML in saying that no where did he completely blame the employees, but there ARE crooked employees and they HAVE tarnished Amtrak. Why no videos or music on board? Equipment Stolen. By employees. Not all employees past and present have an obsolete proprietary movie video tape player that can only play about a dozen movies. But no one ever said all employees are crooks, either, or that they are to blame.


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## tonys96

VentureForth said:


> Wow. Even I will back up GML in saying that no where did he completely blame the employees, but there ARE crooked employees and they HAVE tarnished Amtrak. Why no videos or music on board? Equipment Stolen. By employees. Not all employees past and present have an obsolete proprietary movie video tape player that can only play about a dozen movies. But no one ever said all employees are crooks, either, or that they are to blame.


Four posts above it says

" Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses"

That says it is THE cause of the losses, not A cause...........


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## Devil's Advocate

I have no knowledge of what is being stolen or not but I have seen employees with lousy customer service, completely lack of ownership, and even punitive off-the-cuff policy making. Not every Amtrak employee is incompetent or a thief but there are some who do actually deserve some blame for Amtrak's woes.


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## tonys96

Devil's Advocate said:


> I have no knowledge of what is being stolen or not but I have seen employees with lousy customer service, completely lack of ownership, and even punitive off-the-cuff policy making. Not every Amtrak employee is incompetent or a thief but there are some who do actually deserve some blame for Amtrak's woes.


Agreed. Some employees deserve some of the blame for the woes. But they are the exception, not the rule, IMHO.


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## seat38a

tonys96 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure there are some and it's a problem with Amtrak. Why do you think that problems have to be one big thing? That's easy to solve. Amtrak has a swarm of tiny to medium size problems. Which is the devil to solve.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, lets blame the employees.......that's the ticket........( sigh).........
Click to expand...

So what part of the next sentence that starts with "Unscrupulous" did you not understand got you all up in a huff and puff? No part of that ever said "ALL"


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## Green Maned Lion

I don't recall saying that they are the majority. I said, "I'm sure there are some." Amtraks accounting system is full of areas that allow for dishonesty among the people who lean that way.

Amtrak, as I said before, has tons of problems relating to archaic practices, institutional lethargy, and other problems. Employee theft has become a bigger problem, everywhere- not just Amtrak. Their anti theft practices are much more proof of fools than foolproof.

I remember an LSA explaining how they accounted for dessert ala mode. They would add ice cream to the checks of those who did not order desert. Their manager apparently wink wink encouraged it because it increased the subsidy to the dining car. That's not exactly an honest system and it is inbuilt.

Institutional theft and dishonesty.


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## The Davy Crockett

Devil's Advocate said:


> I have no knowledge of what is being stolen or not but I have seen employees with lousy customer service, completely lack of ownership, and even punitive off-the-cuff policy making. Not every Amtrak employee is incompetent or a thief but there are some who do actually deserve some blame for Amtrak's woes.


Agreed. Though I've heard from numerous Amtrak employees - and this was before this latest round of 'belt tightening' - that the amount of money that gets 'wasted,' 'pissed away,' or 'that seems to vanish' is astounding.

Now this just might be unhappy employees venting about their employer, but I've heard from some employees who seem 'matter of fact' and not angry.


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## seat38a

Green Maned Lion said:


> I don't recall saying that they are the majority. I said, "I'm sure there are some." Amtraks accounting system is full of areas that allow for dishonesty among the people who lean that way.
> 
> Amtrak, as I said before, has tons of problems relating to archaic practices, institutional lethargy, and other problems. Employee theft has become a bigger problem, everywhere- not just Amtrak. Their anti theft practices are much more proof of fools than foolproof.
> 
> I remember an LSA explaining how they accounted for dessert ala mode. They would add ice cream to the checks of those who did not order desert. Their manager apparently wink wink encouraged it because it increased the subsidy to the dining car. That's not exactly an honest system and it is inbuilt.
> 
> Institutional theft and dishonesty.


Oh WOW, I did not know that. I ordered my dessert Al La Mode in January, but I also read a thread somewhere that sleeping car passengers were allowed to have their dessert a la mode per Amtrak's policy. Did not know that creative accounting was how they did it. But at the same time, in our party's case, my mom skipped dessert most of the time so I'm sure my ice cream came out of her check.


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## tonys96

seat38a said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure there are some and it's a problem with Amtrak. Why do you think that problems have to be one big thing? That's easy to solve. Amtrak has a swarm of tiny to medium size problems. Which is the devil to solve.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, lets blame the employees.......that's the ticket........( sigh).........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what part of the next sentence that starts with "Unscrupulous" did you not understand got you all up in a huff and puff? No part of that ever said "ALL"
Click to expand...

" Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses" -seat38a
Says this was THE cause of the losses.......not A cause or ONE cause.....THE cause........I simply disagree, there are many. Many causes of losses, including being over staffed.........


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## SarahZ

tonys96 said:


> " Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses" -seat38a
> 
> Says this was THE cause of the losses.......not A or ONE cause.....THE cause........I simply disagree, there are many. Many causes of losses, including being over staffed.........


I believe seat38a was referring to the dining car losses, not Amtrak losses in general, as the discussion was about the dining car revenue at that point.


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## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> " Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses" -seat38a
> 
> Says this was THE cause of the losses.......not A or ONE cause.....THE cause........I simply disagree, there are many. Many causes of losses, including being over staffed.........
> 
> 
> 
> I believe seat38a was referring to the dining car losses, not Amtrak losses in general, as the discussion was about the dining car revenue at that point.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter. I don't think employee fraud or theft is THE cause of dining car losses either. A factor? Probably......THE cause? No.


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## EB_OBS

Dining car losses 101

1. buying individually packed, vacuum sealed single serving entree portions instead of buying in bulk or by weight. The packaging cost significantly raises the price. It's the dumbest way to buy in quantity.

2. No POS

3. Menu prices too high to attract many coach passengers, see #1

4. Antiquated inventory management and accounting system. 1940s anyone?

5. Revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip.

These are just my top 5.


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## amamba

Can you explain "revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip?"

I don't think I understand. What is "revenue protection"?


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## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> Dining car losses 101
> 
> 1. buying individually packed, vacuum sealed single serving entree portions instead of buying in bulk or by weight. The packaging cost significantly raises the price. It's the dumbest way to buy in quantity.
> 
> 2. No POS
> 
> 3. Menu prices too high to attract many coach passengers, see #1
> 
> 4. Antiquated inventory management and accounting system. 1940s anyone?
> 
> 5. Revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip.
> 
> These are just my top 5.


always refreshing to hear from someone who actually works on the train


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## tonys96

yarrow said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dining car losses 101
> 
> 1. buying individually packed, vacuum sealed single serving entree portions instead of buying in bulk or by weight. The packaging cost significantly raises the price. It's the dumbest way to buy in quantity.
> 
> 2. No POS
> 
> 3. Menu prices too high to attract many coach passengers, see #1
> 
> 4. Antiquated inventory management and accounting system. 1940s anyone?
> 
> 5. Revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip.
> 
> These are just my top 5.
> 
> 
> 
> always refreshing to hear from someone who actually works on the train
Click to expand...

True!


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## seat38a

EB_OBS said:


> Dining car losses 101
> 
> 1. buying individually packed, vacuum sealed single serving entree portions instead of buying in bulk or by weight. The packaging cost significantly raises the price. It's the dumbest way to buy in quantity.
> 
> 2. No POS
> 
> 3. Menu prices too high to attract many coach passengers, see #1
> 
> 4. Antiquated inventory management and accounting system. 1940s anyone?
> 
> 5. Revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip.
> 
> These are just my top 5.


So it sounds like Number 2 and 4 goes back to the ticket picture I posted earlier.


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## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> Can you explain "revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip?"
> 
> I don't think I understand. What is "revenue protection"?


Amtrak's OIG requires that all LSA paperwork is checked for discrepencies at a central processing center.

All LSA & chef paperwork packets are gone over at the end of trip by a well paid supervisor who checks for errors and compares the sales #s to the dollars remitted to Amtrak.

Then the packet is FedEx to finance who scan all the checks, double check all the paperwork and compare the scanners totals to the LSA totals. If there is any difference the checks are hand tallied. Any difference + or - is sent back to the crew base as a debit or a credit.

Now the same well paid supervisors who briefly checked the packets before they were FedEx go over them again, thoroughly, to ensure that the debit or credit is legit. Many many are revised after coming back from finance.

Now a credit or debit is given the LSA, more often a debit which they then have to pay. In most cases in my experience we're talking about $5-20, or 30 or $50 tops but they can be and are larger if the LSA or chef made a bad mistake like not accounting for NOT receiving a box of steaks or something and other reasons.

All the hours spent by Revenue Protection scouring over all the handwritten paperwork by LSAs & chefs is $100s of dollars, as I said, generally to say the LSA under-remitted a few dollars. More often than not, a simple mistake, not theft.

When I was an LSA on both bistro cars and the dining car on the EB, I had very few discrepencies either way. i had only 2-4 a year where many LSA have one every trip. I think the largest legitimate one for me was $32. The only one I ever had higher was when the next LSA after me stole $88 worth of coffee cups because I transcribed a # wrong from one column to the next. He was a known thief even the remit clerk investigating my debit told me. I was new at the time so I just paid the $88.


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## Bob Dylan

Outstanding Post EB_OBS!

I wonder if Amtrak's Executive Team and the Bean Counters have a plan to get Amtrak out of the 1940s and at least to the 20th Century let alone the 21st with POS and better Contracting practices and Accounting?(of course there are Union considerations but that's what Negotiations are for!)

This is nuts and speaks for itself, Mica and his henchmen will probably be all over this!


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## seat38a

On the California state supported trains, they have POS systems. This must be a state mandated thing then. I never bought anything on the Sunset Limited so I never paid attention if they had a POS or not.


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## rusty spike

It is amazing that Amtrak can bring their ticket/reservation system up to date with e-ticket, but leave F&B back where it was on A-day.

Can you imagine going into McDonald's and have them write you order down on a piece of paper? POS systems have been around since the 1970's --almost as old as Amtrak.


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## yarrow

jimhudson said:


> Outstanding Post EB_OBS!


it certainly is. imho, the vast majority of amtrak's problems are not caused by the people who actually do the work but the suits who have little to do other than devise idiotic procedures in order to protect their jobs and have other suits tell them how clever they are


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## EB_OBS

The Cascades have POS too.

An Amtrak supervisor I know, who previously owned restaurants and a bar has proven to finance that they'd come out better if they allowed for a small variance or disrepency of .5% - 1% of sales instead of insisting that every single item and $ match 100% and the resulting administrative bureaucracy to do so.

Every restaurant or retail store I ever worked at had built into the P&L an expected and acceptable and manageable statistical loss McDonalds is .5% waste, .5% loss. Retail varies from 1% - 5% shrinkage depending upon the average value of products sold. You do your best to control it and keep those % in line with your P&L to earn your yearly bonus.

Amtrak's system is used by no organization I've ever heard of. Like I said they spend $100 to recover 5-10.


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## D.P. Roberts

EB_OBS said:


> The Cascades have POS too.
> 
> An Amtrak supervisor I know, who previously owned restaurants and a bar has proven to finance that they'd come out better if they allowed for a small variance or disrepency of .5% - 1% of sales instead of insisting that every single item and $ match 100% and the resulting administrative bureaucracy to do so.
> 
> Every restaurant or retail store I ever worked at had built into the P&L an expected and acceptable and manageable statistical loss McDonalds is .5% waste, .5% loss. Retail varies from 1% - 5% shrinkage depending upon the average value of products sold. You do your best to control it and keep those % in line with your P&L to earn your yearly bonus.
> 
> Amtrak's system is used by no organization I've ever heard of. Like I said they spend $100 to recover 5-10.


Wow, that is extremely outdated. With a modern POS system, any manager can track an overage/shortage with a laptop the day it happens. And requiring employees to pay for their shrink? That whole idea is out of date, by several decades.


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## Paulus

D.P. Roberts said:


> Wow, that is extremely outdated. With a modern POS system, any manager can track an overage/shortage with a laptop the day it happens. And requiring employees to pay for their shrink? That whole idea is out of date, by several decades.


Still fairly common in the retail and restaurant world from what I hear, even where it is illegal (like California).


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## montana mike

Well, here in the backwoods of MT just about every restaurant we go to has gone "electronic" and paperless--except for the CC bill that needs to be signed. Our orders are into the kitchen before the wait staff has left the table most of the time. I often wondered why Amtrak was sooooooooo out of date. Heck, if they had moved into the 21st century they may have been able to save a few of the amenities that were dropped!


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## tonys96

I am just guessing here, and feel free to tell me if I am mistaken, but I am guessing that Amtrak has not yet gone to a digital POS system is the cost of hardware and software. They would need to set up an intranet system of some sort, I think. I know very little about the digital world, but DO know it is not cheap to install systems in moving locations.........


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## jis

I am wondering what is the scope of the problem. Is it just the LD trains that do not have the new F&B POS system? Or are there other corridors that do not have it too? I genuinely don't know the answer and I am wondering if someone has a concise list of what routes and services have F&B POS system and which ones other than the LD network, don't. Thanks much.

I have been under the impression that on the NEC at least the Acelas and possibly the Regionals too, now have the F&B POS system. Am I mistaken?


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## neroden

EB_OBS said:


> Amtrak's system is used by no organization I've ever heard of. Like I said they spend $100 to recover 5-10.


And this is the sort of thing which Amtrak should change if management really cared about improving the profitability of the dining cars. Rather than cutting the menu.
Someone in management is attacking the long-distance trains with malice.

...anyway, Amtrak should implement point of sale and electronic inventory management in the dining cars immediately; the equipment should be integrated into the new Viewliner diners at delivery, and retrofitted into the Superliner diners ASAP. The payback from this would be massive and very quick.

This was already described as being on Amtrak's to-do list in the PIPs, which are years ago now. Apparently someone in management really doesn't want to improve the functioning of the dining cars.


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## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> I am just guessing here, and feel free to tell me if I am mistaken, but I am guessing that Amtrak has not yet gone to a digital POS system is the cost of hardware and software. They would need to set up an intranet system of some sort, I think. I know very little about the digital world, but DO know it is not cheap to install systems in moving locations.........


There are also some human factors involved. From AU's expert in POS:



rrdude said:


> Sorry, "POS" _has been_ my business for over thirty years, so the acronym is embedded into my brain. As many know, Amtrak has had "fits and starts" with POS systems for the last 15-20 years.
> 
> When I was working for a POS dealer in the DC area in the early 90's, I got wind of the fact they were looking, "again". (they had tried and failed with IBM in the NEC, and Amtrak California, at the time, was "doing it's thing" with POS)
> 
> Story on the NEC-IBM failure was legend in our small industry. They found IBM units strewn and smashed along the ROW, thrown off trains "at speed". I know, 'cause I saw some of these destroyed units in a storage room at DC's Ivy City comissarry, along with dozens and dozens of other POS terminals, that were just removed from service.
> 
> You have to remember, the reasons for any owner or company to install or upgrade a POS system are pretty simple:
> 
> 
> Reduce cosst (reduce theft, better inventory control, better reporting, less time to "do" reports..)
> Increase profit (make sure every item is sold at correct price, speed up service line)
> Improve customer service (customers are charged correct price, faster service, more trust in system)
> POS systems "force" accountability. That is NOT something some LSA's wanted. They had been "gaming" the system for _years._
> So our dealership got wind Amtrak was looking again, well, "Intercity" was looking again. I meet with the right people, set up a demo at HQ, and blew them away. Why? I _*knew*_ all the reasons that LSA's would try to reject the system. And I worked with two current LSA's/Train Managers. I had the reports coming out of the NCR system matching Amtrak's 896 report (multi-copy, hand entered, long-ass report filled out at end of every trip)
> 
> The LSA's still had to count the stock at the end of the trip, and, (this was one of our downfalls) and they had to take a floppy disc, and hand it to someone at the receiving commissary, who in turn put it into a PC.........This was before the era of EZ wireless, or USB drives.........
> 
> We also knew another major problem was theft of equipment left on board, while the trains were being serviced in either Chicago, or Sunnyside, NY.(VCR's TV's, Microwaves, Computers, coffee makers, anything that could be pried off the wall or counter, were routinely stolen)
> 
> As our project was only in the pilot stage, and not approved for all of Intercity yet, we had to devise an EZ way for LSA's to carry-on, and carry-off the the POS units. They were small, about the size of laptop, but still had to be plugged into power, and have the receipt printer attached.
> 
> We ran pilots on the Cap and LSL. All went pretty well, and Amtrak ordered about $250K worth of equipment from us. The rollout on those two trains was smooth, but then Amtrak had to take this to "open bid" to outfit the rest of Intercity. That's were politics got into the mix.
> 
> The CEO of another firm, I believe his POS product was called "Cache Box" was _*very experienced*_ in the Washington and governmental procurement process, dealing with GSA RFI, RFP's, etc., etc.
> 
> Even though I was working for a major dealership, that carried both Micros POS and NCR POS (And NCR corporate staff assisted somewhat, _*they*_ saw the opportunity) The principals at my dealership really didn't give the account as much attention (in the political portion of this) as they should have. In turn, the CEO at Cache Box got very involved in *writing* the RFP. Well, once that's done, everyone else might as well walk away. I knew we were dead.
> 
> Amtrak awarded the deal to Cache Box. I sat back and waited, knowing they would have to put out another RFP later, 'cause the product that Cache Box was installing was not a good fit in any way, shape, or form.
> 
> It did fail, miserably. Again they were pulled from the trains, and stored next to the IBM hardware.........More money down the drain.....
> 
> The VBU's were broken up, and "Amtrak Intercity" was no more. End of POS project. (*V*ertical *B*usiness *U*nits)
> 
> They went back to the carry-out boxes being used as the "POS". What a shame. What a waste.
> 
> Amtrak did install cheap "banger" cash registers in a lot of the Cafe Cars, bolted down, to avoid theft. And that is better than nothing.......
> 
> I sincerely hope the new POS systems work, to bring more accountability to the system. Employees who *****-and-moan about them, well, that raises my "trust/theft radar" *REAL QUICK*. Sure, the CC swipe may take longer, due to Cell or WiFi, but that problem will fix itself over time. Most people just don't like change, of _any kind._ So it's natural to resist new technology, even if it will actually _help _you do your job better and faster.
> 
> We always say in our business, "Go back 6 months after it's installed, and tell them you are gonna _take_ their POS system away from them....watch them raise holy hell then.........."
> 
> At least that's _my version _of Amtrak's POS history. What say you?


----------



## rrdude

neroden said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's system is used by no organization I've ever heard of. Like I said they spend $100 to recover 5-10.
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the sort of thing which Amtrak should change if management really cared about improving the profitability of the dining cars. Rather than cutting the menu.
> Someone in management is attacking the long-distance trains with malice.
> 
> ...anyway, Amtrak should implement point of sale and electronic inventory management in the dining cars immediately; the equipment should be integrated into the new Viewliner diners at delivery, and retrofitted into the Superliner diners ASAP. The payback from this would be massive and very quick.
> 
> This was already described as being on Amtrak's to-do list in the PIPs, which are years ago now. Apparently someone in management really doesn't want to improve the functioning of the dining cars.
Click to expand...

As Ryan noted, "it's been tried, and has failed........, in the diners and lounge cars, but that by no means it shouldn't BE implemented. The technology is here, NOW, to make it work. For both operations, (taking orders in the Diner) and for reporting. (Sending End-Of-Trip reports wirelessly to the cloud)

Amtrak Cali is the exception, and has good POS hardware, software, and mounting infrastructure, it should be, (and I think, is) being rolled out to the Regionals, at least the mounting hardware is installed on every FS car I've been on..

The Diner needs to take a leap from the 19th century, _*directly*_ to the 21st century..... *FAST*.

It won't "solve all problems", but it will give management sales information *much* quicker, even REAL TIME,, (if they *do *anything *with* that info is up for debate, but's it's 100% feasible that the POS could be programmed with PAR levels, and send an alert to any commissary, that "train # 3 has just run out of Signature Steak", and that the next commissary down the line that stocks that item, if any, should be prepared to re-stock)

A POS will make closing the day, and trip, much quicker, as the paperwork, * other than counting the remaining ON-HAND stock, *will be automatically calculated. Once the on-hand stock is entered, the POS will calculate the variance, or "over-short" for product, based on what was sold.

The POS will (or "can") also track sales by server, and tips by server, and if set up right, could report on "Total dining experience time", or, "how long did it take from start to finish for each patron..... invaluable, but some entities *don't*, like this info...........

With table-side ordering, the servers will be able to "turn the diner" faster, without customers "feeling" rushed, Their food just get's ordered and delivered quicker....... PERFECT. And perhaps they could use a feature found on most POS systems, and incent the servers to sell more alcohol, or sides, or anything, (product they have too much of) by use of "Server Contest" reporting, Heck, at the end of each trip, the server who "sold the most beer" might be offered a $10 bonus, or whatever.

Receipts would/could be easily emailed to passengers, both meal-included sleeper pax, and cash-paying coach.

Obviously, as has been stated by several, the real reporting on the back end is what is selling, and what is not. And WHO is upselling, and who is NOT.

Again, what, if anything, management does with that info, is up for debate. But it would allow operations to focus MORE on customer service, and less on tallying checks, and running to the middle of the diner, to drop their tickets,

Table-side ordering devices, (tablets, hand-helds, or customer-facing units) is expected to be implemented by 1/3 of all restaurant responding to a survey, this year. The ROI is just off the charts.....

Good luck Amtrak, I'm available for consulting if you like! I've been on BOTH sides of the table.


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## jimhudson

You'll never get hired dude, you have common sense, real world experience and you actually would recommend things that work instead of giving management what they wanted in boiler plate reports! Sigh


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## Anderson

POS equipment is one thing that is desperately needed. They might want to keep some physical receipts on hand for when a computer inevitably runs out of batteries at the wrong time or the wifi dies, but there's no reason they couldn't make do pretty well with something like what Cinebistro does (where the staff enters your order on a small handheld system and you get a receipt issued immediately). The main issue is whether you actually add any revenue with it...I'm not sure how many folks get turned away from the diner, for example, except on perhaps the Builder.

The one place that quicker turning would help? If Amtrak wants to start lengthening trains substantially, quicker turns _could_ allow an additional sleeper on top of what can currently be accommodated.


----------



## neroden

Thanks for your insight, rrdude. I'm not surprised that the procurement process got politicized and ended up buying lemons. But at this point, point-of-sale is practically a commodity product. The wireless problems solved by Amtrak for e-ticketing were harder. Even with political interference it really should be possible to get a competent implementation now.

The real savings would be eliminating all that back-end paperwork and speeding things up.

If it's done *well*, it could do wonders. I've seen POS systems in restaurants which are quite capable of handling "Complimentary extra ingredient X for passenger Y", or "X without cheese", which can give very valuable feedback to the menu designers when they find out what the common request items are.


----------



## jimhudson

Its obvious that I don't know much about High Tech but since e-ticketing seems to be working well for Amtrak with the Conductors using their I-phone scanners, is it feasible for the LSAs to utilize the same technology for sales and associated record keeping???

I see this all the time @ Farmers Markets and Flea Markets and the vendors tell me it is easy to set up and not that expensive!


----------



## jis

Indeed the POS that I saw used in the Food Service car on the Cape Flyer was a hand held iPhone.


----------



## Dog Rancher

Obviously, I do not know what all the airlines use, but, my old airline, Continental/United, has the flight attendants use POS handheld machines to sell meals and drinks in coach. They have an integrated receipt printer and the whole thing is slightly larger than an iPhone.

Back in the day (People Express Airlines) when flight attendants would actually do ticketing on board the airplane, there were many flight attendants who drove brand-new Porsche's.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jis

Yes, but they are just selling fixed set of items with no variation. Actually they seem use a device that looks surprisingly similar to the one that they use (and have used for quite a while) on international flights flights for selling duty free, from the looks of it. This would be quite different and relatively restricted in functionality compared to what one would need in a properly functioning Restaurant/Dining Car, unless of course the Dining Car is run merely as a car full of tables for eating from a completely fixed set of boxed items with no variations allowed.

Maybe that is the reason that POS's have managed to get deployed on Acelas and other Corridor Service and not in Diners.


----------



## rrdude

jis said:


> Indeed the POS that I saw used in the Food Service car on the Cape Flyer was a hand held iPhone.


Probably like THIS JIS, which is what the company I work for, has been doing for about ten years...........

I've installed table-side, or hand-held ordering systems on dinner boats, NFL stadiums, dinner theaters, fast-casual restaurant, sit-down restaurants, theme parks, amphitheaters, sandwich shops, and even in the drive-thru lane at McDonald's, to "bust the line", and casino's. The ROI is huge and fast, provided the situation warrants hand-helds. (It the restaurant *doesn't care * about table turn, why bother installing?)

It would work like a champ for the dining cars. And now Amtrak has a choice of dozens of off-the-shelf POS companies to choose from, when ten years ago, we were _almost_ the only one offering it. (Stateside)

Sales of our Hand-Held units skyrocketed when we ported our s/w over to the iOS (iPad Touch and iPhone) and now, with the advent of "cheap" tablets, the market is set to explode again, estimates are by 1/3, domestically.

At first we thought this would put a "dent" in the sales of our dealers who sell our product.

SURPRISE! 

*Reverse is true.*

Now restaurants, instead of buying 3 "fixed" POS stations, for all the servers to share, placed around the restaurant at $1,500 a pop, (h/w only), now they buy 7, 8, 9 or however many servers they have on the floor at one time, so it's a 1:1 ratio. 1 POS unit (albeit iPad) per server. So it's *win* for us, as we only do the s/w. Now a restaurant will buy 7,8, or 9 server-licenses from us (and in turn, our dealers) instead of 3 or 4.

Oh, btw, even though mgmt can "mandate" the use of POS, if the rank-and-file don't "buy-in" (less work, more accuracy, more tips, more accountability-opps, the don't like the accountability benefit!) then the actual deployment of the POS s/w in the field (train or land-based restaurant, I've seen it happen with chain restaurants.) will really cannibalize the ROI......


----------



## rrdude

jis said:


> Yes, but they are just selling fixed set of items with no variation. Actually they seem use a device that looks surprisingly similar to the one that they use (and have used for quite a while) on international flights flights for selling duty free, from the looks of it. This would be quite different and relatively restricted in functionality compared to what one would need in a properly functioning Restaurant/Dining Car, unless of course the Dining Car is run merely as a car full of tables for eating from a completely fixed set of boxed items with no variations allowed.
> 
> Maybe that is the reason that POS's have managed to get deployed on Acelas and other Corridor Service and not in Diners.


JIS, the flexibility and modifications needed are a no brainer, check out this old video from Action Systems, makers of Restaurant Manager. (my employer)

Sorry about the music, we make sucky videos....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Yes, but they are just selling fixed set of items with no variation. Actually they seem use a device that looks surprisingly similar to the one that they use (and have used for quite a while) on international flights flights for selling duty free, from the looks of it. This would be quite different and relatively restricted in functionality compared to what one would need in a properly functioning Restaurant/Dining Car, unless of course the Dining Car is run merely as a car full of tables for eating from a completely fixed set of boxed items with no variations allowed. Maybe that is the reason that POS's have managed to get deployed on Acelas and other Corridor Service and not in Diners.


What kind of "varitions" are you talking about? Amtrak diners are just about the most variation-free sit down restaurant I've ever seen.


----------



## rrdude

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but they are just selling fixed set of items with no variation. Actually they seem use a device that looks surprisingly similar to the one that they use (and have used for quite a while) on international flights flights for selling duty free, from the looks of it. This would be quite different and relatively restricted in functionality compared to what one would need in a properly functioning Restaurant/Dining Car, unless of course the Dining Car is run merely as a car full of tables for eating from a completely fixed set of boxed items with no variations allowed. Maybe that is the reason that POS's have managed to get deployed on Acelas and other Corridor Service and not in Diners.
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of "varitions" are you talking about? Amtrak diners are just about the most variation-free sit down restaurant I've ever seen.
Click to expand...

Modifiers, STEAK, Rare, Med Rare, Med, Med Well, Well, Pittsburgh. Beverage: Soda (Pepsi, Mt. Dew, Pibb) Water, tea. We call them modifiers in the POS biz, and virtually every POS software handles them flawlessly today, some better than others. but it's a core part of any POS. Usually the modifiers print indented, or ALL CAPS, or *bolded-colored. *So the kitchen (or bar) can easily make out the variations......... Many times there are more modifiers in the dBase, than there are menu-items


----------



## jis

rrdude said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but they are just selling fixed set of items with no variation. Actually they seem use a device that looks surprisingly similar to the one that they use (and have used for quite a while) on international flights flights for selling duty free, from the looks of it. This would be quite different and relatively restricted in functionality compared to what one would need in a properly functioning Restaurant/Dining Car, unless of course the Dining Car is run merely as a car full of tables for eating from a completely fixed set of boxed items with no variations allowed.
> 
> Maybe that is the reason that POS's have managed to get deployed on Acelas and other Corridor Service and not in Diners.
> 
> 
> 
> JIS, the flexibility and modifications needed are a no brainer, check out this old video from Action Systems, makers of Restaurant Manager. (my employer)
> Sorry about the music, we make sucky videos....
Click to expand...

Oh I completely agree. The point I was making is that for the sort of food sales that United does in domestic cabin, it does not require variations. It is exactly like the sales they do for duty free on international flights. So they just had to take basically the same system and load it up with a different inventory and were good to go.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

And of course there are even, I kid you not, FREE POS software systems out there. The one I use is combined with my merchant services system (I.e. Credit cards) and the only thing I pay for is a single percentage of sale fee on credit cards. So it really is free if I was brainless enough to not take credit cards.


----------



## tonys96

rrdude said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed the POS that I saw used in the Food Service car on the Cape Flyer was a hand held iPhone.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably like THIS JIS, which is what the company I work for, has been doing for about ten years...........
> 
> I've installed table-side, or hand-held ordering systems on dinner boats, NFL stadiums, dinner theaters, fast-casual restaurant, sit-down restaurants, theme parks, amphitheaters, sandwich shops, and even in the drive-thru lane at McDonald's, to "bust the line", and casino's. The ROI is huge and fast, provided the situation warrants hand-helds. (It the restaurant *doesn't care * about table turn, why bother installing?)
> 
> It would work like a champ for the dining cars. And now Amtrak has a choice of dozens of off-the-shelf POS companies to choose from, when ten years ago, we were _almost_ the only one offering it. (Stateside)
> 
> Sales of our Hand-Held units skyrocketed when we ported our s/w over to the iOS (iPad Touch and iPhone) and now, with the advent of "cheap" tablets, the market is set to explode again, estimates are by 1/3, domestically.
> 
> At first we thought this would put a "dent" in the sales of our dealers who sell our product.
> 
> SURPRISE!
> 
> *Reverse is true.*
> 
> Now restaurants, instead of buying 3 "fixed" POS stations, for all the servers to share, placed around the restaurant at $1,500 a pop, (h/w only), now they buy 7, 8, 9 or however many servers they have on the floor at one time, so it's a 1:1 ratio. 1 POS unit (albeit iPad) per server. So it's *win* for us, as we only do the s/w. Now a restaurant will buy 7,8, or 9 server-licenses from us (and in turn, our dealers) instead of 3 or 4.
> 
> Oh, btw, even though mgmt can "mandate" the use of POS, if the rank-and-file don't "buy-in" (less work, more accuracy, more tips, more accountability-opps, the don't like the accountability benefit!) then the actual deployment of the POS s/w in the field (train or land-based restaurant, I've seen it happen with chain restaurants.) will really cannibalize the ROI......
Click to expand...

How do these work? Here most chain restaurants servers have IPhone type devices that they put the order in on, I assume to the kitchen/bar. This is done wirelessly. What is the logistic for this? What mechanism allows this to happen? Something like a wireless router in my house?

I know diddly squat about this, but am curious.....on a train, this would have to be internal, so there would have to be something that moves the data from point A to point B that did not rely on the cellular systems, which allow my IPad to connect to the internet......what is the connection mechanism for what you speak of, and would it work on a train in a tunnel, or in a no cell service area?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The system in my store is cloud based. While all the devices are hooked up to the internet through the same routers, it actually does it all through a server at the MS company- and if our wifi internet goes out the iPhones connected to the system can still run on cell data. The iPads, and the MacBook Pro, can't, however.


----------



## tonys96

Green Maned Lion said:


> The system in my store is cloud based. While all the devices are hooked up to the internet through the same routers, it actually does it all through a server at the MS company- and if our wifi internet goes out the iPhones connected to the system can still run on cell data. The iPads, and the MacBook Pro, can't, however.


So if you were in a no cell area, or without wifi, as is the case in many places on the western LD trains, you would be SOL until getting back in cell service area? Or does it work a different way?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

My system does batch unsent orders and sends them out when it gets in touch with the cloud. It does have an option to take unconfirmed credit cards for later processing. I don't use it- I don't have borscht for brains. But it can fully function without the cloud being connected. It just doesn't send the information to the broader system until it has connection.


----------



## The Chief

Green Maned Lion said:


> And of course there are even, I kid you not, FREE POS software systems out there. The one I use is combined with my merchant services system (I.e. Credit cards) and the only thing I pay for is a single percentage of sale fee on credit cards. So it really is free if I was brainless enough to not take credit cards.


Good point GML; I've thought the same thing. We live in an App world.

This isn't the thread, but many of us would like to see some upgrades on some Legacy systems (I'm thinking ARROW is one).

My understanding on (some of) the Chicago-St Paul Stub (Builder) (807 / 808) trains this week didn't even show in the (public facing) res system (for some time). Rather the oft used Service Disruption was in use to the actually open route.

Can we say what was used was a _POS_ and what's needed is a POS?


----------



## neroden

For the wireless communication, the way to do it is to have a local WiFi hub computer in the dining car. The radio waves will connect from the handheld devices to the local hub, no problem. If connectivity to the outside world comes and goes, *that's OK*, the system still works.

This should be pretty easy to do. It's likely to even work off the shelf with some of the off-the-shelf systems, though rrdude would know better than I about that.


----------



## rrdude

neroden said:


> For the wireless communication, the way to do it is to have a local WiFi hub computer in the dining car. The radio waves will connect from the handheld devices to the local hub, no problem. If connectivity to the outside world comes and goes, *that's OK*, the system still works.This should be pretty easy to do. It's likely to even work off the shelf with some of the off-the-shelf systems, though rrdude would know better than I about that.


Pretty much nailed it, a LAN, is used for POS (fixed or hand-held) to Kitchen printers, while a WAN is used for internect connection, with built-in cellular back up for CC Auth


----------



## tonys96

rrdude said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the wireless communication, the way to do it is to have a local WiFi hub computer in the dining car. The radio waves will connect from the handheld devices to the local hub, no problem. If connectivity to the outside world comes and goes, *that's OK*, the system still works.This should be pretty easy to do. It's likely to even work off the shelf with some of the off-the-shelf systems, though rrdude would know better than I about that.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much nailed it, a LAN, is used for POS (fixed or hand-held) to Kitchen printers, while a WAN is used for internect connection, with built-in cellular back up for CC Auth
Click to expand...

Which is probably why they have not installed it yet........it would take a capital outlay to start and they are not spending any money, instead they are cutting back on things to save money. Even if spending a little right now might increase revenues (or cut costs) in the future, and if the cost cuts implemented might prove to decrease revenues in the future.

Every manager has to make decisions and implement their own vision, some win, some lose. JCPenney's recent fiasco comes to mind.......


----------



## neroden

> Even if spending a little right now might increase revenues (or cut costs) in the future, and if the cost cuts implemented might prove to decrease revenues in the future.


"Cut costs" until you go bankrupt, it's been done by many companies before. We can only hope for a reversal in attitude. I wish Amtrak had stuck to the attitude shown in the PIPs, which was a pretty good attitude.


----------



## haolerider

neroden said:


> Even if spending a little right now might increase revenues (or cut costs) in the future, and if the cost cuts implemented might prove to decrease revenues in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> "Cut costs" until you go bankrupt, it's been done by many companies before. We can only hope for a reversal in attitude. I wish Amtrak had stuck to the attitude shown in the PIPs, which was a pretty good attitude.
Click to expand...

Most of the employees involved in the PIP program have left the company, some voluntarily and others Either forced out or retired. The program was positive, but was fought by Operations management.


----------



## neroden

haolerider said:


> Most of the employees involved in the PIP program have left the company, some voluntarily and others
> 
> Either forced out or retired. The program was positive, but was fought by Operations management.


Now that's bad news. If correct, there seem to be some bad eggs in Operations management who are out to kill Amtrak and need to get fired for cause. Opposing operational improvements which will increase revenue, while simultaneously supporting stupid service quality reductions which will drive people away? People who act this way don't belong in Amtrak management.


----------



## Ryan

This is also the same operations department that makes it difficult for reasonable connections to be added into ARROW so that trips can be booked on AGR redemptions.

Because, reasons, and stuff. Why can't we get rid of those jokers?


----------



## Bob Dylan

RyanS said:


> This is also the same operations department that makes it difficult for reasonable connections to be added into ARROW so that trips can be booked on AGR redemptions.
> 
> Because, reasons, and stuff. Why can't we get rid of those jokers?


Yep, the classic Potomac Two-Step where the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing and when someone points it out a turf war breaks out and nothing gets fixed! Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians!


----------



## PRR 60

RyanS said:


> This is also the same operations department that makes it difficult for reasonable connections to be added into ARROW so that trips can be booked on AGR redemptions.
> 
> Because, reasons, and stuff. Why can't we get rid of those jokers?


Because, the operation side of the Amtrak house runs the show, and no one has ever dared challenge that.


----------



## jis

Actually some have tried to challenge and got summarily ejected. :-/


----------



## greatcats

If I was working for Amtrak, given my outspoken history on NJ Transit, It would be likely thatcIbroo would be ejected!


----------



## greatcats

I too!


----------



## haolerider

greatcats said:


> I too!


On the positive side, some of the Operations people were also ejected!


----------



## jis

haolerider said:


> greatcats said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too!
> 
> 
> 
> On the positive side, some of the Operations people were also ejected!
Click to expand...

Indeed! Now that you mention it, that is certainly true. At least the one that immediately comes to mind IMHO was quite worthy of being ejected too.


----------



## PaulM

haolerider said:


> Most of the employees involved in the PIP program have left the company, some voluntarily and othersEither forced out or retired. The program was positive, but was fought by Operations management.


You seem to be attributing the nickel and diming (the subject of the thread) to operations rather than bean counters, In most industries, operations and bean counters are mortal enemies.

Could someone explain what the term "operation management" or "operations" means with reference to Amtrak?


----------



## PaulM

PRR 60 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is also the same operations department that makes it difficult for reasonable connections to be added into ARROW so that trips can be booked on AGR redemptions.
> 
> Because, reasons, and stuff. Why can't we get rid of those jokers?
> 
> 
> 
> Because, the operation side of the Amtrak house runs the show, and no one has ever dared challenge that.
Click to expand...

But we are constantly told that Amtrak and AGR are separate. More specifically, does operations force AGR to stick by the published route rule even though it has been shown to be arbitrary and illogical?


----------



## PRR 60

PaulM said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is also the same operations department that makes it difficult for reasonable connections to be added into ARROW so that trips can be booked on AGR redemptions.
> 
> Because, reasons, and stuff. Why can't we get rid of those jokers?
> 
> 
> 
> Because, the operation side of the Amtrak house runs the show, and no one has ever dared challenge that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But we are constantly told that Amtrak and AGR are separate. More specifically, does operations force AGR to stick by the published route rule even though it has been shown to be arbitrary and illogical?
Click to expand...

AGR can suggest, but the final decision is not AGR's.


----------



## haolerider

PaulM said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the employees involved in the PIP program have left the company, some voluntarily and others
> 
> Either forced out or retired. The program was positive, but was fought by Operations management.
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to be attributing the nickel and diming (the subject of the thread) to operations rather than bean counters, In most industries, operations and bean counters are mortal enemies.
> 
> Could someone explain what the term "operation management" or "operations" means with reference to Amtrak?
Click to expand...

Operations is the group that "runs the trains"....and has considered themselves to be "real railroad people"....as opposed to Marketing/Sales/PR.... or any other department that works for Amtrak. While I can't say definitely that this is true, but there is almost a total disregard for the passengers.....who sometimes get in the way of the real goal.....which is to run the trains! Changes in meal,service, changes in decor, changes in how the passenger is to treated......all changes that have been challenged by Operations. As stated before, there have been many "ejections" in all departments but we will,ahve to wait and see what happens next. Changes in meal service and amenities that have occurred lately do not seem to bode well for passengers!


----------



## PaulM

PRR 60 said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> But we are constantly told that Amtrak and AGR are separate. More specifically, does operations force AGR to stick by the published route rule even though it has been shown to be arbitrary and illogical?
> 
> 
> 
> AGR can suggest, but the final decision is not AGR's.
Click to expand...

Suggest what? what routes get published, or what the rules are for AGR redemptions?


----------



## Ryan

Suggest logical routings get published into Arrow (making them eligible for award travel).


----------



## CHamilton

Maybe the Feds can donate the surplus cranberry juice to Amtrak.

Federal government buying some surplus cranberries


> SALEM, ORE. — The federal government's decision to spend $55 million on cranberries may dent a global glut, support prices and speed up payments to growers....
> Between this year's cranberries and fruit still unsold from 2013, the global cranberry supply stands at 16 million barrels (1.6 billion pounds). Demand over the next year is expected to be about 8.2 million barrels, according to the U.S. Cranberry Marketing Committee.
> 
> To trim the nearly 100 percent surplus, the USDA announced Nov. 21 it will buy approximately 680,000 barrels of cranberries in the form of juice, sauce and dried berries to distribute to food banks and schools.


----------



## Big Iron

CHamilton said:


> Maybe the Feds can donate the surplus cranberry juice to Amtrak.
> 
> 
> Federal government buying some surplus cranberries
> 
> 
> 
> SALEM, ORE. — The federal government's decision to spend $55 million on cranberries may dent a global glut, support prices and speed up payments to growers....
> Between this year's cranberries and fruit still unsold from 2013, the global cranberry supply stands at 16 million barrels (1.6 billion pounds). Demand over the next year is expected to be about 8.2 million barrels, according to the U.S. Cranberry Marketing Committee.
> 
> To trim the nearly 100 percent surplus, the USDA announced Nov. 21 it will buy approximately 680,000 barrels of cranberries in the form of juice, sauce and dried berries to distribute to food banks and schools.
Click to expand...

Too bad there isnt a vodka glut also.


----------



## jis

The remaining problem then will be to find the Turkey to go with it?


----------



## boxcarsyix

Since this topic has been reopened. Are there any recient travelers who can update the rest of us about the current state of the amenities? Water in the sleepers, perks at meals, etc.


----------



## MiRider

boxcarsyix said:


> Since this topic has been reopened. Are there any recient travelers who can update the rest of us about the current state of the amenities? Water in the sleepers, perks at meals, etc.


My experiences in Oct. on the TE and Nov. on the CONO were inconsistent.

TE:

SCAs that did the minimal needed

Coffee in the morning only SB &NB

2 waters in roomette - NB that's all I got, SB there was water at the coffee station until it was all gone

CONO:

Great SCAs, one being the best I've ever encountered (Rian Wilson)

Coffee as soon as you boarded and available all day SB & NB

2 waters in roomette and water available at the coffee station throughout the trip

Juice in the morning


----------



## fillyjonk

boxcarsyix said:


> Since this topic has been reopened. Are there any recient travelers who can update the rest of us about the current state of the amenities? Water in the sleepers, perks at meals, etc.


TE, northbound: there were tablecloths in the diner (but the steak was way tough). SCA nice but didn't do anything excessively special. "Express" breakfast (2 choices only) and lunch (veggie burger or "meat" burger only)

TE, southbound: no tablecloths but the steak was a lot better, excellent SCA who had cookies (cheap packaged sandwich cookies he probably bought himself) and lollipops out, and he had ice available. (He had a lot of hustle, I wonder if he was a new guy on the route. I e-mailed Amtrak and told them he did a good job)

Both ways there was bottled water available - it was in my sleeper and I also saw extra out by the coffee station. I think the SCA also had orange juice available.

Also the French toast was better than I remember it being, it wasn't so dried out and hard.

I will admit I miss the local newspapers a little bit; we used to occasionally get the St. Louis paper northbound and the Texarkana one southbound.


----------



## Ispolkom

I did a round trip on the Empire Builder over the Thanksgiving weekend, St. Paul-Minot. Both directions there was water in the roomette and more available. Coffee was available past lunch. The SCA had to fetch ice from the dining car. Both breakfast and lunch had plastic plates and paper cups. Oatmeal is still old-fashioned, not instant, and the chicken Caesar salad is more substantial than I remember.


----------



## tonys96

TE northbound from Dal to Chi had water, ice, juice, coffee. Plastic plates, no tablecloth. Steak was perfect, french toast good.

LSL from Chi to NYP, all the water, ice, coffee you wanted, juice till 9:00 am. Plastic plates. Food good.


----------



## Bob Dylan

My last sleeper ride in Oct. out of Austin (Used a Voucher from the trip to/from the Gathering) on #22/#21 had mixed results like previous posts!

I had Breakfast and Lunch in the Diner CCC) and there was paper on the tables and plastic dishes. The Omelete was excellent, the coffee and cranberry juice were plentiful and good as was the Chicken Maple Sausage. I had one of the good Diner Crews (Brian was the LSA) on this leg of the trip!

Lunch was the Chipotle Burger w/ Cheese and was excellent as WS the Chocolate Mousse desert. Plenty of refills on tea and pleasant, professional service from the LSA who helped the one server with a full Diner!

The SCA was Outstanding, one of the old timers, Jim, who's in my OBS HoF! Plenty of fresh hot coffee, apple and orange ( ugh!),juice, ice upon request and water in the rooms and by the coffee station. There was also the usual choice of Magazines and papers available that are provided by Jim.

On the return from FTW on #21 I skipped Lunch since Diner is served so early.

The SCA was an extra board newbie that didn't give his name and whom I never saw once I boarded until we stopped in Temple to let off a passenger, then again @ the stop in Austin. No coffee, no juice, no ice, no tip!

For Dinner I ordered the steak with baked, ice tea and cheese cake.( paper and plastic again) No offer of a salad,( I usually don't eat them anyway, tasteless salad bar quLiry) the dinner roll was cold, and it took 45 mins for the order to come. ( I had the first setting and the Diner was half full!)

No offer for tea refills, I had to ask. The steak was cooked OK but was small and tough. They were out of the topping so the cheesecake, which was still half frozen was served NY style.

The LSA set on her duff @ " her" table the whole time, never said a word to anyone, she was doing " paperwork"!

This was the first time I've failed to tip in the Diner Ever, the experience and service was that poor! ( yes, I did call CR)

So once again Amtrak's LD experience was a mixed bag with excellent service from one crew and poor to non-existent service from another! Luck of the draw which seems to be Amtrak's current MO!!


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

jimhudson said:


> I had Breakfast and Lunch in the Diner CCC) and there was paper on the tables and plastic dishes. The Omelete was excellent, the coffee and cranberry juice were plentiful and good as was the Chicken Maple Sausage. I had one of the good Diner Crews (Brian was the LSA) on this leg of the trip!
> 
> Lunch was the Chipotle Burger w/ Cheese and was excellent as WS the Chocolate Mousse desert. Plenty of refills on tea and pleasant, professional service from the LSA who helped the one server with a full Diner!


For a moment I thought you were describing LSA Lucious who is one of the best Diner Leads I have seen. Always friendly, runs a very efficient happy Diner and would always thank me and shake my hand when I got up to leave, inviting me back for the next meal.

Tony runs a very efficient tight ship _*Texas Eagle*_ Diner as well but is not as outgoing as Lucious. He brings you in as a group with the Salads and Rolls already in place (pre Optional Salad days). He'll then stand in the aisle and read verbatim from the menu so everyone understands what is available and what is incuded.


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## Bob Dylan

I agree about Lucious and Tony as Excellent LSAs on the Texas Eagle!

Unfortunately there are two crews that have lazy LSAs and worthless food servers (including the infamous Miss Polly) that make the Diner experience like the one I had on #21 unpleasant!

Same thing in re the SCAs, most are good to HOF Quality ( Jim and Toni) on the Eagle including some of the Newbie Extra Board hands but a few are like the easy rider I had on #21. Re-train or de-train! That's why I suggested the Chief of OBS position be brought back as a management position since the "Suits" on this route are invisible and don't do their jobs which is to manage the route, not ride a desk!


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## I always rode the Southern

Seems like the auto train has lost it's status, at least as far as the diner product is concerned. All the other LD trains get steak, auto train gets tasteless pot roast, mashed potatoes that taste no better than instant, and okay to substandard chicken or fish dependent on how the stars are aligned. The OBS, for the most part, still go out of their way to provide the quality of service we are used to getting. This was my daughter's report from mid november. Not looking forward with happy anticipation to our next trip in April.


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## Train Rider

Brian on the Texas Eagle is the best LSA in the system.


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## Durham57

"The Infamous Miss Polly" in a dining car is frequently mentioned. Would someone please say why she is infamous?


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## greatcats

Miss Polly is a dining car server usually found on the Texas Eagle working out of Chicago to San Antonio. She is a lady with an "attitude. " Not sure if this is exactly true, but I have heard that she was nearly fired a few years ago because she threw coffee at a passenger. I did encounter her just over two years ago from San Antonio to Chicago. She and her colleague seemed cut from the same cloth with both exhibiting a hard nosed attitude, but It seemed that Polly tried to put on an appearance of being courteous, but the veneer was kind of thin. I will say those two ladies did run an efficient dining car, but it did not exactly overflow with tons of goodwill.


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## aviva_dawn

On one way trip RNO to CHI on CZ:

Water in my room and available at Coffee Station. Juice (cranberry, Apple, orange) available all day and replaced each morning with fresh. Coffee was made each morning. Food in the diner was great!

I did notice that the SCA in the car next to mine had put out a basket of candy, and a tray of cookies, they both looked appetizing.


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## tonys96

jimhudson said:


> I agree about Lucious and Tony as Excellent LSAs on the Texas Eagle!
> 
> Unfortunately there are two crews that have lazy LSAs and worthless food servers (including the infamous Miss Polly) that make the Diner experience like the one I had on #21 unpleasant!
> 
> Same thing in re the SCAs, most are good to HOF Quality ( Jim and Toni) on the Eagle including some of the Newbie Extra Board hands but a few are like the easy rider I had on #21. Re-train or de-train! That's why I suggested the Chief of OBS position be brought back as a management position since the "Suits" on this route are invisible and don't do their jobs which is to manage the route, not ride a desk!


The LSA on my Eagle trip was Tony. Easy for me to remember his name!


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## fillyjonk

Yeah. Lucious is awesome, I'm always happy when I walk into the diner on the TE and see him in there, I know it will be a well-served meal.


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## George K

MiRider said:


> CONO:
> 
> Great SCAs, one being the best I've ever encountered (Rian Wilson)
> 
> Coffee as soon as you boarded and available all day SB & NB
> 
> 2 waters in roomette and water available at the coffee station throughout the trip
> 
> Juice in the morning


Just finished a ride on CONO (back and forth to Chicago), and I have to agree about Rion. Above and beyond. Helpful, friendly, courteous, and attentive. He seems to have his act together, and he's exceptionally well organized. Made our trip south a delight.

One of the best.


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## lepearso

I can't help but mention that Tony was born and raised in Tennessee.


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## Henry Kisor

I think the disappearance of most amenities will make little difference with ridership. The folks who remember the great luxury limiteds of old have largely died out, and most Americans today are used to lack of amenities in all kinds of traveling, especially the airlines. While Amtrak cuisine is hardly haute, it's still decent road food, and that's what we expect today. What makes the difference in the Amtrak travel experience today is the quality and professionalism of the crews, and I believe that has improved mightily over the hit-and-miss of the '80s and '90s.


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## jis

People who use Amtrak for really necessary travel - the stated reason for the existence of Amtrak, are indeed likely to travel anyway, because they do not have any other reasonable means at a reasonable price to undertake the trip. As for the rest, yeah if it makes enough money to cover the frills there should be frills. The main discussion I suppose needs to be where does necessity end and frills begin.


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## neroden

Even if you think you have captive customers, it's worth cutting your profit margin a little to have happy customers rather than annoyed customers. Telephone companies and Greyhound (among others) have learned this to their chagrin.

This doesn't require fancy. I've seen a great attitude out of most Amtrak employees. But I have been encountering what I consider a wholly unprofessional, customer-hostile attitude out of bits and pieces of Amtrak, *particularly* in the dining service, and that's not good for the long-term future of Amtrak.


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## jis

One of the definitions of "quality" in large operations is reduction of variance and surprises. Most prefer lack of surprises of a negative kind more than one of positive kind. Unfortunately if a culture of reduced variance is fostered it would mean less of both kinds. However, if the baseline that is maintained is of a high standard then that lack of variation would not be as much of a concern. Unfortunately Amtrak has historically had a problem in reducing variance in service delivery, and that is what needs fixing without racing to the least common denominator.


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## BetweenOcean

I recently completed a Southwest Chief trip where the sleeper attendant told me that it was not his job to make down berths or to assist with luggage. When we arrived at our destination station he was nowhere to be found. On the return the attendant (another person) did everything perfectly. This is the kind of erratic quality that is the real problem.


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## George K

BetweenOcean said:


> I recently completed a Southwest Chief trip where the sleeper attendant told me that it was not his job to make down berths or to assist with luggage


What? That's astonishing. Did you ask what, exactly, did he think *was* his job?


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## BetweenOcean

George K said:


> BetweenOcean said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recently completed a Southwest Chief trip where the sleeper attendant told me that it was not his job to make down berths or to assist with luggage
> 
> 
> 
> What? That's astonishing. Did you ask what, exactly, did he think *was* his job?
Click to expand...

This is a guy who is obviously counting the days until retirement. He's a real exception to the usually excellent SWC crews. On a previous trip, on arrival Albuquerque about an hour before departure, he let off his passengers and then told waiting passengers they could board 10 minutes before departure, and then disappeared. I have written him up more than once.


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## George K

I've mentioned Rion, the SCA on CONO, in another post. He is a perfect example of above and beyond. My wife has some mobility issues (spinal fusion, trouble with stairs, etc), so we traveled in our bedroom and brought along a walker - just in case. No, she didn't need the walker going from car to car, and she loved her first LD trip.

BUT...

When we detrained at NOL, Rion had already taken our suitcase off the luggage rack, and it was sitting on the platform, waiting for us.

The contrast between what we experienced and what you describe is amazing. That kind of crappy attitude is what turns people away and costs money. Rion's attitude is what makes you want to come back.


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## Tennessee Traveler

In fact, I had Rion on a trip last August and really was super impressed. So when I rode the CONO this January, I was so disappointed Rion was not on board. A very good consolation though was that my SCA Kevin told me Rion had trained him. Rion does have a Facebook page 58 Sleeper Guy. So look him up if you are on Facebook.


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## George K

Tennessee Traveler said:


> A very good consolation though was that my SCA Kevin told me Rion had trained him. Rion does have a Facebook page 58 Sleeper Guy. So look him up if you are on Facebook.


Had Kevin on the way back to Chicago! Also very very good.


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