# NYC Subway car seating?



## adam_aussie (Feb 11, 2008)

Hi,

I'm a rail enthusiast writing from Melbourne, Australia.

I am planning a trip to NYC later this year and having never been before I'm interested to find out about the seating layout of MTA's subway carriages.

I hope to do a lot of sightseeing of suburban New York while onboard the subway, however I have been informed that due to the seating layout, most subway cars do not have "window seats", rather a bench-seating arrangement whereby the passengers have their backs to the wall/window of the carriage.

An internet search has found this to be true in most cases, however I have come across the odd photo of 'window seats' such as this pic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:R44_Interior.jpg

Can I ask if it is just the R44 cars which have this particular seating arrangementm or are there other models in the MTA fleet?

....hoping this question made sense.

Thanks

-adam


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## adam_aussie (Feb 11, 2008)

...with some recent research I can answer my own question to some extent:

the R44+R46+R68 cars have "window seats".

Are these the only 3?

Also from photos I see that at at the front of each 'A' car at the driver's cab end, there is a window/doorway in the middle of the car looking out. Are passengers allowed to stand in this doorway (adjacent to the drivers cab)? Would be the next best thing to a cab-ride!


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## AlanB (Feb 11, 2008)

adam_aussie said:


> ...with some recent research I can answer my own question to some extent:the R44+R46+R68 cars have "window seats".
> 
> Are these the only 3?


Those are the only cars that have some seats with windows. You should know though that the view out of that window is rather limited, since one really can't see ahead in the direction of travel. One can only see pretty much straight out the window. Also, claiming one of those seats isn't easy, since they represent only a small fraction of all the seats on the train.



adam_aussie said:


> Also from photos I see that at at the front of each 'A' car at the driver's cab end, there is a window/doorway in the middle of the car looking out. Are passengers allowed to stand in this doorway (adjacent to the drivers cab)? Would be the next best thing to a cab-ride!


Yes, one can stand at that window and look out when one finds one of those cars. Unfortunately cars with that "railfan" window are becoming harder and harder to find. I'm guessing here, but I'd say that at least 2/3rds of the fleet now have full width cabs, including the R44 series cars. With a full width cab you have to look through the window of the door to the cab, to see out the front door window. And all that assumes that the cab door window isn't blocked. Even when it isn't actually blocked, the window is tinted, so that distorts the view to some extent.


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## sweet tea (Feb 11, 2008)

you say you're hoping for sightseeing of "suburban" ny on the subway. do you mean on the various commuter rr's (metro-north, long island rr, new jersey transit, etc.)? those do have window seats.

or maybe by suburbs you meant outer boroughs? if that's what you meant, then you may want to see which places that interest you have the trains with window seats. i know i've gotten great views on the outer reaches of the A, crossing jamaica bay to the rockaways, on the q to coney island, and on the staten island rr, all of which have window seats.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 11, 2008)

A seat on most of the subway is, in fact, a highly theoretical, abstract concept, window or not. Most people on board the subway at any given time are standing, holding on to the strap or bars.

The subway, as its name implies, operates primarily underground, at-least in Manhattan and the inner sections of Brooklyn and Queens. As such, they aren't great sightseeing tools.

The absolute best New York Sightseeing tool can be found here. The Circle Line offers a fantastic 3-hour circle-Manhattan cruise tour that is incomparable.

Riding trains can be a good way to see other areas, such as the hudson valley (Either MNRs Hudson Valley Line or Amtrak's Empire Service- the Amtrak goes farther and is more comfortable, but costs much more) LIRRs Montauk line, and NJT/MNR's Port Jervis line.


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## adam_aussie (Feb 11, 2008)

Thankyou for your above replies, most informative and helpful.



> Also, claiming one of those seats isn't easy, since they represent only a small fraction of all the seats on the train.


With New York's population, this is something I can appreciate. To give myself the best chance of getting a 'window' seat I plan to board each train at its terminus, not somewhere half-way along the line, will this help?

Is it common to sometimes have rather empty cars during the day at the outer reaches of each of the lines, or do the cars often fill up within the first few stops?



> you say you're hoping for sightseeing of "suburban" ny on the subway. do you mean on the various commuter rr's (metro-north, long island rr, new jersey transit, etc.)? those do have window seats.
> or maybe by suburbs you meant outer boroughs? if that's what you meant, then you may want to see which places that interest you have the trains with window seats. i know i've gotten great views on the outer reaches of the A, crossing jamaica bay to the rockaways, on the q to coney island, and on the staten island rr, all of which have window seats.


I know its primarily a 'subway' and spending periods of time underground is unavoidable, however from what I've researched I believe the

1, 4(?), 7, A, D, F, J, K, L, M, N and Q lines have a lot of above-ground track.

I do plan on riding on the Staten Island line, heading upto Poughkeepsie and perhaps spending 4-6 hours on the LI network (still not sure which lines at this stage)

So thanks for the advice, to answer your question I plan to see both the outer boroughs and and suburban areas of New York.



> The absolute best New York Sightseeing tool can be found here. The Circle Line offers a fantastic 3-hour circle-Manhattan cruise tour that is incomparable.


 Thankyou for the tip, i'll take in onboard.
regards

adam


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## AlanB (Feb 11, 2008)

adam_aussie said:


> > Also, claiming one of those seats isn't easy, since they represent only a small fraction of all the seats on the train.
> 
> 
> With New York's population, this is something I can appreciate. To give myself the best chance of getting a 'window' seat I plan to board each train at its terminus, not somewhere half-way along the line, will this help?
> ...


Adam,

If you board at a terminus, then unless there has been a service interuption, you should have no trouble snagging a seat. Normally during off peak times, as a general rule the train won't fill up at the first 2 or 3 stations. But by the time you're ten or more into the run, getting a seat can be problimatic.

That assumes that the terminus is in one of the outlying boroughs, and not the #7 train which can fill up very quickly at either end.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 11, 2008)

And the S fills up imeditately.


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## AlanB (Feb 11, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> And the S fills up imeditately.


Well the only reason for a railfan to ride the S Shuttle in Manhattan, would be so that they can ride as much as possible of the original subway line. Otherwise, with no stops, less than two minutes ride time, and no view what-so-ever, there is no reason to ride that line.

One can however make good arguments for riding the other two S Shuttles, both of which not only have views, but also considerable history too. And the ride lasts a bit longer too.


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## darien-l (Feb 11, 2008)

adam_aussie,

Also, not to discourage you from doing some sightseeing from trains, but a lot of windows are hard to see through for another reason: scratched or acid-etched graffiti. Especially the latter, which makes the windows nearly opaque. The problem has gotten so bad that on my last visit to NY I was having trouble reading station names through some windows. Expect a lot of the windows to look something like this:







http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/nyregion/25mta.html

Just thought I'd warn you.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 12, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > And the S fills up imeditately.
> ...


There's another good reason, which is in conjunction with the A/C/E/1/2/3 you can get from Pennsylvania to Grand Central. I suggest viewing both stations whether you like trains or not. Penn is sorta sad in what it is now versus what it used to be, but is still an incredible underground city in its own right. Grand Central is, in my humble opinion, the most beautiful low-rise building currently standing in all of New York City.


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## George Harris (Feb 12, 2008)

Be very careful in New York. It is not tourist friendly or anything else friendly in my experience. Subway Station entrances and directions tend to be poorly marked in small text placed in obscure locations. If you ask directions you may get no answer at all or you will get an answer based on landmarks as they existed in the past or in terms only another native New Yorker would understand. Remember, the New York subway is very old. Even the newer parts are not really modern.

Go to the web sites of the various transportation agencies and look at good maps and try to figure out all you can before you go. Don't worry about whether or not you look like a tourist. Somehow a native New York City resident can recognize any tourist from a great distance no matter what you do or don't do.

Once you are out of Manhattan, a lot of the subway is elevated and some on the surface. It is still called the subway even if you have to take steps up in the air to get to it.

A common joke: What is the difference between a taxi driver in Singapore and a taxi driver in New York? Answer: The taxi drivers in Singapore speak English.

New York is truly the city that never sleeps. You would be safer if a lot of the denizens were asleep.

I though Guiliani had brought grafitti to an end. Guess the publicity exceeds the reality.

I have stood in the front next to the driver's cab and looked out the front. A few drivers will tell you not to, others don't seem to care. On some you can see the speedometer in the driver's cab. One driver when he noticed that I had been looking covered it with his hand. He had been speeding. So far as I can tell, there is very little automatic anything in the system.


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## sweet tea (Feb 12, 2008)

new york is neither tokyo nor darfur. the trains are crowded in manhattan and at rush hour. you'll be able to get a seat most of the rest of the time, and if not, then just stand and look out the windows of the doors until the seat you want is available. heck, i even get a seat on the rush hour 42nd street shuttle most of the time.

in terms of friendliness, i've found new york the friendliest big city in the US, and certainly a great deal friendlier than some of the smaller places. one easy way to spot a tourist is to look for the person who seems scared of everybody...we don't bite, unless you'd like us to (which may cost). 

to avoid grumpy people on the subway: don't block the doors, and absolutely don't stop right at the top or bottom of stairs or escalators to check a map, etc., but move to one side first. ask directions of someone who doesn't look like they're already late. a big subway pet-peeve of mine is tourists who think they will look cooler if they don't hold onto a pole. you won't look cool, and you may well stumble into someone, which is annoying. (notice that most nyers hold on or lean.)

the circle line is a great way to see manhattan. so is the staten island ferry(obviously lower manhattan and the harbor only), and it's free. if you like boats, you might also google the open harbor tour and find out if they have anything.

i strongly recommend the A train to the rockaways. it's a far ride, but the parts where it skims over the bay are awesome.

have a great trip.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 12, 2008)

Yeah, in my experiance, while New Yorkers are very outwardly aggressive and surly, its only an outward appearance. If you ask directions from someone who doesn't seem to be racing off somewhere in particular, you'll get an answer thats very polite 9 times out of ten, and they are generally helpful.

New York is very logically laid out for the most part with avenues and streets. Avenues run north/south, streets run east-west. The higher the "street" number, the further north you are. the higher the "avenue" the farther west you are. Also, addresses start at the same number between avenues. So if you know the way the system works, an address on any "street" of between W and X will always be between Avenues Y and Z.

Tourists always do the wrong thing, waiting at cross walks when it isn't necessary, jay walking when they shouldn't, etc etc. There's a very distinct rhythm to the City and those who don't have it are very noticeable. I personally love the City. There's no place quite like it.


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## George Harris (Feb 12, 2008)

I worked in New York for about 4 months in 1995 and 1996, have not been back since. Touristed there once in the mid 1970's. I won't say that if my company transferred me to New York that I would quit my job, but it is not far from that. If you like the place that's fine with me, I certainly will not fight you for a share of the place.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 12, 2008)

I'd never live there, but its my favourite place to visit. I know why some people hate it. You either love it or hate it. Mild feelings? Fugheddiboudit. There ain't no betweens.


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## adam_aussie (Feb 17, 2008)

My thanks to all for your above replies, some valuable information here and a lot of 'food for thought'.

Thankyou.

-adam


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## sweet tea (Feb 18, 2008)

thought of another couple goodies:

B D Q or N over the Manhattan Bridge. The Q and N use the downtown side of the bridge, which gives a better view of the Brooklyn Bridge and the harbor (you can't see out to sea, but you can see the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, the gantry cranes of Port Newark and Elizabeth, the Queen Mark if she's in port, the Statue of Liberty, etc.). The B and D use the uptown side, for a view of the Williamsburg Bridge, the Navy Yards, etc.

F train to Smith and 9th, for the sake of the very high bridge over the Gowanus Canal. (The G goes here too, but it ain't called the Green Ghost for nothing.)

JMZ across the Williamsburg Bridge.

If you like bridges, do walk across the Brooklyn Bridge. It's a nice walk, plus there are neat plaques about how it was made.

7 train out to Queens, plus a number of the trains that go to Astoria (just over the river and then north) are elevated and interesting.

For all your subwaying, it's a good idea to check either the MTA website or Straphangers.org to see what the diversions are, especially on the weekends. Usually, there are also signs in the stations, but they can be confusing. And all PA announcements sound like: "Attention Customers: Due to constructions, the <mumble, mumble, static> is NOT <static>. Instead, the train will <mumble> express IMMEDIATELY. The next stop will be <STATIC>. For alternate service, take the number 1 or 5 train to New Jersey."


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## adam_aussie (Feb 24, 2008)

sweet tea said:


> thought of another couple goodies:
> B D Q or N over the Manhattan Bridge. The Q and N use the downtown side of the bridge, which gives a better view of the Brooklyn Bridge and the harbor (you can't see out to sea, but you can see the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, the gantry cranes of Port Newark and Elizabeth, the Queen Mark if she's in port, the Statue of Liberty, etc.). The B and D use the uptown side, for a view of the Williamsburg Bridge, the Navy Yards, etc.
> 
> F train to Smith and 9th, for the sake of the very high bridge over the Gowanus Canal. (The G goes here too, but it ain't called the Green Ghost for nothing.)
> ...


Thanks sweet tea - we have the same PA system issues here aswell.

I am looking at staying at accommodation that overlooks the 7 line, so I'll ovbiously be spending alot of time on the 7, also plan to spend a day riding the 1, 4(worth it?), A, D, F, J, K, L, M, N and Q. I take it some of these are just the express and local versions of the same train?

I haven't really looked into in much detail yet, but timetable-wise is it possible to fit all these lines in on one day? (between daylight hours)


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## GG-1 (Feb 24, 2008)

adam_aussie said:


> sweet tea said:
> 
> 
> > thought of another couple goodies:For all your subwaying, it's a good idea to check either the MTA website or Straphangers.org to see what the diversions are, especially on the weekends. Usually, there are also signs in the stations, but they can be confusing. And all PA announcements sound like: "Attention Customers: Due to constructions, the <mumble, mumble, static> is NOT <static>. Instead, the train will <mumble> express IMMEDIATELY. The next stop will be <STATIC>. For alternate service, take the number 1 or 5 train to New Jersey."
> ...


Aloha

It isn't the PA. Announcers get special training on how the mess up announcements :lol:


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## AlanB (Feb 24, 2008)

adam_aussie said:


> I am looking at staying at accommodation that overlooks the 7 line, so I'll ovbiously be spending alot of time on the 7, also plan to spend a day riding the 1, 4(worth it?), A, D, F, J, K, L, M, N and Q. I take it some of these are just the express and local versions of the same train?
> I haven't really looked into in much detail yet, but timetable-wise is it possible to fit all these lines in on one day? (between daylight hours)


Well in two cases, the D & F as well as the N & Q, they are express/local versions while in Manhattan. But once outside of Manhattan, they all run different routes. Turning towards the time, I'd say that it would be very hard to cover all of that in one day, especially if you plan to take breaks in riding. The A train alone from one end to the other end is a 2 hour ride, and that assumes that you don't want to ride to both ends in Queens, since the train has two terminals in Queens. And then you still have to ride it back to connect to some other train.

So you'd need a very early start I'd think, a very late finish, and very limited stops for food and bathroom breaks to cover all of that. And your schedule had better be spot on, with no problems in service encountered. I seriously doubt that you could do it in daylight hours, unless you are only planning to mainly ride the portions of those lines that are above ground, only going underground when there is no choice.

And there is no K train, so you won't be riding that one. NY did away with the K train years ago.


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## adam_aussie (Feb 24, 2008)

> It isn't the PA. Announcers get special training on how the mess up announcements


....yes, fair comment 



AlanB said:


> Well in two cases, the D & F as well as the N & Q, they are express/local versions while in Manhattan. But once outside of Manhattan, they all run different routes. Turning towards the time, I'd say that it would be very hard to cover all of that in one day, especially if you plan to take breaks in riding. The A train alone from one end to the other end is a 2 hour ride, and that assumes that you don't want to ride to both ends in Queens, since the train has two terminals in Queens. And then you still have to ride it back to connect to some other train.
> So you'd need a very early start I'd think, a very late finish, and very limited stops for food and bathroom breaks to cover all of that. And your schedule had better be spot on, with no problems in service encountered. I seriously doubt that you could do it in daylight hours, unless you are only planning to mainly ride the portions of those lines that are above ground, only going underground when there is no choice.
> 
> And there is no K train, so you won't be riding that one. NY did away with the K train years ago.


Thanks Alan,

Good to know that I will be cutting it fine to travel all those lines in the one day - better to find out now rather than later.

Although yes, I do aim to try and ride only the portions of the lines which are above ground.....where practical.

At the moment I am looking at a 4-day stay in New York.

-2 days for subway, Staten Island RR and maybe a trip to Poughkeepsie (waiting for a train at Spuyten Duyvil station looks interesting)

-2 days for LIRR.

Not exactly sure why, however I meant to say 'Z' train, not 'K'.

I'll put that down to a typo 

cheers


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## AlanB (Feb 24, 2008)

adam_aussie said:


> Good to know that I will be cutting it fine to travel all those lines in the one day - better to find out now rather than later.Although yes, I do aim to try and ride only the portions of the lines which are above ground.....where practical.


That will help some, if you plan to try and only do the above ground portions. For example you can cut out a half an hour by not riding the A up to 207th street, since it's all undergound in Manhattan. You can try to plot things out by using the online PDF schedules, or even the trip planner to plan specific runs/connections at the MTA's website.



adam_aussie said:


> At the moment I am looking at a 4-day stay in New York. -2 days for subway, Staten Island RR and maybe a trip to Poughkeepsie (waiting for a train at Spuyten Duyvil station looks interesting)
> 
> -2 days for LIRR.


That should allow you to cover a fair amount of territory. Note however that you'll want to do the subway riding on a weekday, when schedules are more frequent and there are less diversions and/or closures for contruction/repair work.



adam_aussie said:


> Not exactly sure why, however I meant to say 'Z' train, not 'K'. I'll put that down to a typo


No point to riding the Z train as it runs the same route as the J train. Only difference is that during rush hours the Z skips certain stops that the J makes, and the J skips certain stops that only the Z makes. But the views will be the same, and there is no difference in the tracks that you'll be riding.


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## adam_aussie (Feb 24, 2008)

Much appreciated, thankyou.


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## saxman (Mar 8, 2008)

AlanB said:


> No point to riding the Z train as it runs the same route as the J train. Only difference is that during rush hours the Z skips certain stops that the J makes, and the J skips certain stops that only the Z makes. But the views will be the same, and there is no difference in the tracks that you'll be riding.


The Z seems to only run exclusively at rush hour. And only the peak direction for an hour or so. Otherwise its only the J making all stops. It doesn't really say this clearly on the map, as you assume rush hour is what is at the bottom of the map. But you have to look at the special maps along the line. I've never once been able to catch a ride on the Z yet, and I live 3 blocks from the J/Z train!

That said, I enjoy riding the NJ trains, including the light rail on the other side of the river. That might be something to do also. And remember subway riding all day will wear you out some. It does to me. So don't forget to visit a museum or doing something else touristy.


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## The Metropolitan (Mar 8, 2008)

If you have time, I've found the North end of the (5) line quite interesting. Above 180th Street, it runs along the right of way of the old New York, Westchester, and Boston out to 241st Street, passing through some interestingly constructed stations along the way.

Some links:

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Westch...anch/brxrr.html

http://www.nycsubway.org/nyc/nywb/

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/bronxs...ouses/dyre.html


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## MetsFan (May 15, 2008)

George Harris said:


> I worked in New York for about 4 months in 1995 and 1996, have not been back since. Touristed there once in the mid 1970's. I won't say that if my company transferred me to New York that I would quit my job, but it is not far from that. If you like the place that's fine with me, I certainly will not fight you for a share of the place.


I actually have more complaints about the people i find riding NJtransit trains than NYC subway. Most people i've interacted with in the subway system from MTA employees to the lost tourist have been, if not outwardly friendly, genuinely receptive and polite. I don't know where in NYC you were located for work and housing, but i've never run into 2 rude people in a row.

- Andy


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## darien-l (May 16, 2008)

darien-l said:


> adam_aussie,
> Also, not to discourage you from doing some sightseeing from trains, but a lot of windows are hard to see through for another reason: scratched or acid-etched graffiti. Especially the latter, which makes the windows nearly opaque. The problem has gotten so bad that on my last visit to NY I was having trouble reading station names through some windows.


By the way, I just got back from New York City, and was pleasantly surprised by the state of the windows on most trains. 90% of them now look pristine, whereas just 6 months ago 90% of them were scratched / acid etched to death. Looks like MTA recently replaced windows on most trains. Enjoy it while it lasts.


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